Podcasts about 34i

Big Idea: Beware: the sin of the social gospel.1 Corinthians 11:17-34I. A Gospel that doesn't change lives is no gospel.1 Corinthians 11:17-19Now in giving this instruction I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For to begin with, I hear that when you come together as a church there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. Indeed, it is necessary that there be factions among you, so that those who are approved may be recognized among you.II. Jesus's Gospel shatters all social barriers.1 Corinthians 11:20-22When you come together, then, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For at the meal, each one eats his own supper. So one person is hungry while another gets drunk! Don't you have homes in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What should I say to you? Should I praise you? I do not praise you in this matter!III. A church that promotes anything other than Christ Crucified isn't a church.1 Corinthians 11:23-26For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: On the night when he was betrayed, the Lord Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, broke it, and said, “This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.IV. The seed of the Gospel takes root only in the heart.1 Corinthians 11:27-34So, then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sin against the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself; in this way let him eat the bread and drink from the cup. For whoever eats and drinks without recognizing the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. This is why many are sick and ill among you, and many have fallen asleep. If we were properly judging ourselves, we would not be judged, but when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined, so that we may not be condemned with the world. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, when you come together to eat, welcome one another. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you gather together you will not come under judgment. I will give instructions about the other matters whenever I come.Next Steps: Believe: I accept Jesus's Gospel for the first time today.Become: I will live my faith before unbelievers this week. Be Sent: I will explain the need for the cross to someone this week.Discussion Questions: Is it easier to talk to someone about their problems in society or their sin problems?  Explain your answer. How has the Gospel changed your views on society?What is an area that churches must be careful not to get distracted by?What difference will it make in Heaven if we change society but don't change people's souls?Do you know anyone who believes that God will accept them into Heaven because of the good deeds they do for others? If so, what does this view say about Jesus's death on the cross?Pray for the Holy Spirit to help you push back darkness this week. 

Send us a textBut the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.  Galatians 5:22-23You can't Learn  fruit. Fruit is the Byproduct of who we are. On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”   “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”  He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”  In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.  A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.In the same way a Levite also came there, went over and looked at the man, and then walked on by on the other side. “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. Luke 10:25-33I can Keep My Distance I can be Curious but Uncaring  I can Show Kindness 1.   I must see The Needs of people around me.“Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. Luke 10:332.  I must sympathize With their Pain.Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. Luke 10:33Stop asking: What's wrong with them?Ask: What  Happened to them? 3.  I must seize the Moment to help. Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Luke 10:34I must be willing to Be Interrupted. I have to be willing to Face my fears. 4.  I must spend whatever it takes.Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him.  The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins, telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I'll pay you the next time I'm here.' “What do you think? Which of the three became a neighbor to the man attacked by robbers?” “The one who treated him kindly,” the religion scholar responded. Jesus said, “Go and do the same.” Luke 10:36-37Being kind to the people in need is like lending to the Lord, and He will repay you for the kindness you have shown. Proverbs 19:17 NCV Discussion Questions:What's one idea from the message that really stood out to you? Why did this idea grab your attention?Can you think of some examples where we use other's pain as entertainment?  What are some practical areas of your life where slowing down will help you be more kind?How can we be more intentional about engaging our feelings to sympathize with other people's struggles?What are some common costs to showing kindness and how can we be more prepared to pay them this week? Thank you for listening to the Relate Community Church podcast! Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. If today's message spoke to you, share it with a friend or leave us a review to help spread the word. To learn more about Relate Community Church, visit us at www.relatecommunity.com. You are always welcome here, and remember—you are loved

In a season of Stillness, but I'm still here. ❤️‍

In this episode, Tim sits down with longtime friend and financial advisor Dave Appleton, who brings over 40 years of experience in financial planning. Dave shares insights on the importance of long-term financial strategies, emphasizing visualization as a powerful tool for understanding complex financial concepts. He explains key principles like the rule of 72 for investment growth and the value of diversification to secure financial stability across generations. Through real-life client stories, Dave highlights how proper planning can lead to financial success and security, while short-term thinking—like what fueled the tech bubble—can be detrimental.Beyond finances, Dave and Tim explore the importance of staying active and engaged in retirement to maintain both mental and physical well-being. They discuss how early retirement without purpose can increase the risk of cognitive decline and why continuous learning, including leveraging screen time for education, can keep the mind sharp. Dave also shares how simple visualization techniques—like using sugar cubes to demonstrate financial impact—can make complex topics more accessible. Tune in for a conversation that blends financial wisdom with practical life lessons, helping you make smarter choices for a more secure and fulfilling future.About Dave AppletonDave has been assisting individuals with the planning of their Lifestyle Retirement goals. His objective is to provide individuals and business owners with the advice they need to achieve their immediate and long-term goals by offering a wide range of financial products and services through Planning Strategies Group Ltd. In 2004, Dave was awarded by the Financial Planning Standards Council of Canada (along with two other business associates), the prestigious award of "Advisor of the Year".In addition to help develop and manage a Financial Planning department for a major world-wide Life Insurance corporation, he was also one of the first individuals to set up a full service Financial Planning company in association with accountants and lawyers, this providing a one-stop service for individuals and business owners needing Financial, Estate and Tax Planning advice.—Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Dave Appleton: Linkedin: Dave Appleton--TranscriptDave  00:01A picture is worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. But the thing is, it imprints is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable. Tim  00:33I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the 53rd episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 1:06Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us again. Here on the Sweet on Leadership podcast, I have a dear friend joining me today. I'd like to introduce you all to Dave Appleton. Dave Appleton has been a friend of our family, helping us with financial decisions. We've known each other for years. We came from the same community, but Dave means so much to the health and the wealth and the happiness of my family that it's a real pleasure that I get to introduce all of you today to this fine man. So Dave, thanks for joining us. I hope that this is a fun experience, and I'm looking forward to all the reactions we're going to get from this, because I know that the lessons and the messages that you have and what you've taught me in the past is going to resonate with a lot of people out there that are trying to improve their influence and their impact with others and their life in general. So again, I'm really excited for this one. Dave 02:01Happy for you. It's been a pleasure. Tim  02:06Okay, Dave, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and the company you run and give us a picture for what your purpose in life is. That would be great.  Dave  02:14First of all, I have been in this business for over 40 years.  Tim  02:19Yeah, wealth management and financial advisory. Dave  02:23Yeah, and insurance and I started with, years ago, I started with Manulife. And it's funny because I went with Manulife because they were focused on money products, like financial planning, and that really attracted me. Prior to that, I was in real estate for I had my own business in real estate for about 15 years. And I think when you go from one type of business to another, but they're both linked to financial, there's a lot of crossover of information that you maintain and or keep. And I think I've always been in the money side of things, because it intrigues me. Real Estate, you're helping people. Transitioned over into the financial services industry. And I say financial services insurance was not the hot topic at that time. It was more helping people with their money, retirement planning, things like that. And interestingly enough, I joined Manulife because they bought or developed a plan, a financial planning plan from California, Financial Profiles. It was called, and it was a dot matrix program. Tim 3:30Yeah, so floppy disks? Dave 3:30Well, it was a very slow process, and I to relay a story to that, I remember one time I was doing a plan for somebody, and I said, Oh, I hit the button to say, I want the whole plan. Four hours later, we finally got the plan. I actually went out for dinner and came back and it was still printing. So it shows you how things have changed, from a technology point of view. And, you know, it's interesting when you look at these things and how financial planning has become a hot topic. Before people, oh, yeah, financial planning. And there was all sorts of people that said they were financial planners. You don't want to become a product peddler, shall we say, but you want to become a financial planner, where you're looking at analyzing and helping people get reach their goals. And what financial planning does is it forces you to look at the things you want to do, where you are in life, what direction you want to go, family, everything else, and then you plan accordingly. Tim  04:23What's one or two of the most meaningful transformations you've seen families that you've helped make. Dave  04:30Most of my clients have been with me for over 25 years. And interestingly enough, when you look at where they started from and where they are now, and I'm not the magic guy, it's just that when you have the information, you can make the right decisions, or hopefully in guidance. And that's all you know, a financial planner isn't guide, shall we say, guide of going through life. And you, you provide people with information, and then they can discuss those options and choices that you they have to do or and help them along the way. Sometimes it's just a couple, then it becomes a couple and some children, and goes from there. And yeah, some of the couples I started with that had children, the children are now clients of mine too. So yeah, it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing business. And I like that, because I think, and that's the teacher in me, because I taught a couple of years. So yeah. Tim  05:20You know your client set is really interesting, because you've been with some of them from the very beginning all the way through to the very end and you know, for us, and we've been clients of yours for years after we were introduced by a good friend, and you spend your days, you have the focus to spend your days looking at what options are out there, what movements are out there? What needs to be done keeping an eye on that aspect of my and my wife's life, you're calling me and saying, Hey, this is happening. This is going on. We need to move something around, or we need to plan for something in the future. And so you're able to devote your time to keeping an eye on things for people where they may not have the time or the expertise to keep that that attention as high as it needs to be. My clients, even this week, when they're facing challenges of leadership and team, they may never have dealt with that challenge before. They're not an expert at getting out of that issue. I deal with it 30 times a year, and so I specialize in some of the issues that they call me in for If your faucet is leaking, you call a plumber, right? You don't call the local baker or something. That's what I notice for sure. Do you think captures it? Dave  06:32As a planner, I'm not a chartered accountant, I'm not a lawyer, but I think the people that are in need of financial advice are the business owners, the self employed and people that have family situations and that getting the right advice is so important when you're planning for your future. And I think that's the problem. Is most people don't think far enough ahead. They think ahead, but they don't they think about next year, but they don't think about five years, ten years, and where am I going to be and making a big financial plan when you're 30 years old. I stopped doing the big, complex financial plans because there's too many changes between age 40 and 60 in retirement years or 30 and and 50. And you can do a plan, but it doesn't have to be a complex plan. Yeah, and I think that's the key is you gotta, you just gotta have a direction and understand things, understand terminology. What's an RSP, what's a RIF? These are things that we I think every business has their own acronyms. What's your GDS ratio? People say GDS, well, gross debt service ratio, and then that's how they qualify you for a mortgage. Every industry has these little short forms in that, like here, in ours, we have the riff, we have the list, and people look at you, and you got to be careful, as an advisor, not to utilize these term, this terminology, without explaining what it is, because if you say it and they don't understand it, they're not listening from there on. Tim  08:00So that's that brings us to a really interesting point, because, you know, again, I consider you one of my close friends now at this point. And for those of you that can't pick this up in Dave's voice, because you sound spry and youthful, and you are, you know, you're the same age as my dad. You'll have a big birthday coming up this year, right? And when we talk on the phone or whatever, to me, age is irrelevant. It's trust and respect and mutual interest in the other person's well being and all of those things that kind of come into play. And a big part of that for us, Dave has been that you come to the house when we need to be thinking a certain way. You keep us on a plan and on a track, and you help us see things differently. You help us consider all of our options. You put everything on the table. And you do this in such a personal way, because one of your one of your habits, is to always be doing this in really close proximity. It's not something that's kept at a distance. It's very intimate. And we're having coffee and we're sitting around the table, and it's… Dave  09:08Tim, I'll interrupt you there. That's why I come to your house for a free cup of coffee. There you go.  Tim  09:12There you go. Free cup of coffee. Oh, I hope our coffee is all right. But when you think about that, and you think about the value that you can bring to somebody by having them get out of their bubble and thinking long term, right? That's one of the biggest benefits that you've given us, is allowing us to take a much longer view. And in the middle of COVID, when things are a little bit hot, rational outside perspective, focus on the larger picture here. Don't get too bent about the little moves. What kind of problems in the world or with families are associated with that thinking too close, thinking too much in the short term. Dave  09:50I'll give you a good example, in the tech bubble. When it was back in the 2000s, that tech bubble we talk about it, tech stocks were just i. Everybody wanted to be in tech. And I had, I think I might have, might have told you this before, I had a client who was a GIC client, and we finally got him involved in some insurance company segregated funds, which are like mutual funds, because of the guarantees that they provide. That was a big step for him. And I always remember he was there for years, and when the tech market was going crazy, he says, oh, we were making like 16% in on our on his investments, and he wanted to move because his neighbor next door was in tech, and he was making 24% so he moved all his money into tech. I didn't do it. I said, I think you're crazy. And as we know, the tech market went from $1 to 20 cents, in some cases, some of those stocks, and it was a short term thinking, talking about long term, short term. One thing if people can remember, the one thing if they can remember, is the rule of 72 and the rule of 72 is, if you take 72 divided by the interest rate that you earn on your investment, that's how long it takes your money to double. So if I get 10% as an example, it's going to double in 7.2 years. Yeah, if I get 5% Oh, guess what? Now it's double the time. If I get 2% I get, Oh, here you go, the banks give me 2% of my on my savings account. It's going to take your money 30 plus years to double at 2% and we're only talking a difference of, Oh, I get 7% that's 10 years. I'm going to use 8% as an example. So every nine years, my money doubles. So if I put in $10,000.09 years later, and I get 9% I get nine years, my might becomes $28,000, it's the next nine years with 20 becomes 40, and then 80, it's a doubling of the doubling. And I think that's what people forget, is it's, that's the long term thinking. And if you can, you don't need 50% returns. You don't need 40% because now you gotta add in the one thing that really affects everything is the risk factor. Yeah, okay, I got a picture in my office, and it's actually, I think it's down Pebble Beach. It's the one where they shoot the golf ball the holes across the ocean. There Was You gotta get it across, and the bottom of it is risk. I'm looking at it now, and you look at these things, you think, oh, yeah, because people don't sometimes look at the risk side. I'm not saying people don't make more money in short term, but don't put all your money.  Tim  12:34I think there's a crossover there to life, and that is in terms of Jen and I, when it comes to either finances or what we do more broadly, in the things we choose to engage in, you want to have things in your life that are very solid, that are foundational, that give you that low or or controlled risk environment, so that you have bandwidth to take some risks in other areas of your life. So you know, when it comes to investment, I have a portion of my portfolio that is in startup companies and things which are a little higher risk, but the stability of my long term investments gives me the ability to play over in those spaces without feeling overly exposed, right? It gives me a little bit of freedom. And it's the same thing that financial stability that we've created with you, allows me to take the risks that are associated with being an entrepreneur and being a business owner and investing in my business and making plays in my business, which other people might find very scary that don't want to take those risks, and so balancing that kind of net risk is part of that control part of our life that allows us to then be free and creative over in other parts of our life where we need to be free and creative. Dave  13:59Yeah, I think you have to ask yourself, Where did you go through life? You got to say, okay, is my investment an investment, or is my investment a gamble? And when it becomes a gamble, the risk factor goes up considerably. We all do this, but you don't do it with 100% or 80%, 50% of your money. You want to play the game. As I always tell people, you want to play the stock market. You take some money and go play it. It becomes a gamble when you're taking I gotta double my money overnight. I'm gonna bet this one horse, and he's gonna. It's a hot tip. Tim  14:31Just this past week, I used the phrase again when I was doing some career work with an executive. We were talking about getting stuck in waiting for someone else to promote you, hoping that somebody notices you. That, to me, is a gamble, right? That you're hoping that other people are going to do something in the same way, that if you're not enjoying your job and you jump and you don't know what you're moving into, or you're not leaving with a feeling of success from wherever you jumped off. You're playing the career lottery, and longer term thinking says we have to slow some things down. We have to really analyze what all of the inputs are and then make the best possible strategic moves to lower the risk overall. It doesn't mean you can't do exciting things. It doesn't mean you can't take risks, but you do it with as much data and as much controlled risk as possible, I think there's great lessons that transfer over to how we think about the game of money and investment and financial literacy and all of those things, when we start to apply those same lessons to our life. Dave  15:37Yeah, and I think there's been a lot of stuff written books and that on people that win the lotteries, yeah, and you look at it and you say, a lot of those people don't have the money in five years. They win big money, and they don't do the planning. They don't, a million dollars. You can't retire on a million dollars. As a kid, I used to watch the program The Millionaire on TV, and a million dollars, back 40 years ago, was a lot of money. I had a client that they inherited $900,000 and of course, one year, if you can believe it, they spent $100,000 in travel costs. They started to listen to me because I said, Well, you're just going to burn it up because you can't expect to double your money replace that type of usage in one year. Hey, you want to have a travel budget, that's fine, but stick to the budget. I mean, I always like to tell people you want to, we like cruising. And you know, when you do it, they got six month cruises. Those cruises are $200,000 people buy those tickets, but those are people that have a lot more. And 200,000 is probably like 20,000 for the average person. They use that money because they're going to, obviously, they're going to be out traveling around, doing spending, and they're not just spending 200,000 on the cruise those cruise ships sell out. But I look at cost of living things like that, we're going to go through this with the tariffs and everything. I think this is going to cause a great wake up call for a lot of people. Yeah, they're going to have to start looking at the deals that are out there. You know, are you going to go out and buy oranges if they're going to cost you 10 bucks a pound or whatever? I don't think so. So these are things that people have to start looking at. Investing money. I'm going to say, Well, okay, don't tell me. I'm going in for lower risk. I'm going to invest in my GIC. Well, that's a risk. Yeah, right away. It's a risk because the risk is you're going to run out of money, yeah, because you can't survive on a 2% rate of return when inflation is three. And you can't survive if you're 40 years old. Putting into GICs, the key, I think, to any investing is diversification, and diversification simply means that I got my money all over the world. You've got a whole blend. Don't get into the risky diversifications.  Tim  17:53Yes, I think it's a great segue into thinking about the real risk of decisions. And again, this is one perspective I'd love to ask you about right now. One thing that we know is happening is perhaps people invested and are able to retire right now. And so you and I had lots of talks around retire at 60 or retire at 65 and we're seeing lots of strong data now coming out about the increased dementia risk when people are bored and when they're not active and feeling useful, even having suitable amounts of stress, and definitely a notion of having purpose and a community and people that hang around is really important. And taking that decision that this is when people retire, decision, this is what we should do. This is what society says we, when we should put ourselves out to pasture. That's never been your game. For the people that are out there listening. Drop that knowledge on them. Drop what you told me about the thought of staying sharp, challenging yourself to help other people.  Dave  18:59I think working and keeping I'm not saying it's going to prevent dementia, but it forces you to remember things. It forces you to be active, forces you to interact. And I think the highest risk retirees, if you can believe it, are the police and firemen. Because they have a high, high stress job, they retire, and they sit retire, and they sit at home, watch TV and bang, and the mind goes, I'll be working on the day I die, as I said, and I don't mind that, because you feel you're interacting, you're you're alive. Let's put it this way, you see at Home Depot, you see all these people that are retired and they're working there. When you take an Uber, I like taking an Uber because you're talking to people that are, yeah, they're working and everything you're getting life stories from these people, yeah, really interesting to hear the life stories of different people. Tim  19:49Any year I have clients, probably three to five a year are people that are on to second careers. They're 60-65 or older. They've retired. And it's hasn't worked for them. They're starting businesses. They're entering into consulting. Often the story is that they finished working when they were told they should finish working, when they were prepared to finish working, and they're bored. My clients are primarily very driven people. They're leaders of organizations. They're people that are not satisfied with kind of mailing it in and taking it as it comes. And you're not going to suddenly become somebody who is going to be satisfied with a boring existence or a purposeless existence after you retire. And so pay attention to who you are now, there are things that people misidentify as, stuff that'll never change when it actually can change, and there's things that people think will change when it actually won't change, for instance, your personality or your drive, and in some way, shape or form, you're not going to suddenly change who you are, right? Some of those things are pretty baked in. We've come quite a ways here. We've talked about the lessons that we can capture from long term thinking. We have talked about how important it is to think this way, Assuredly when it comes to our wealth and when it comes to life and planning and family, what do you want people to challenge themselves to do? After listening to this. Dave  21:25You got a plan around what they have. What is your lifestyle? What is your family situation? Do you have kids? Do you care about your grandkids? Are these factors so we put away 150 bucks a month for the grandkids when they hit age 60 or 65 there's a half a million dollars in access to cash flow. And you know, there's different things, you know, you say, oh, inflation, Oh, that's too much money. Tim 21:49150, bucks a month is too much. Dave 21:50It's not too much more than 10 bucks or a cup of coffee every day. It's 300 bucks a month, right there. If you don't do that, how much you're going to have when the kids hit 65 you can save money, and if you're willing to adapt, I'm not going to buy steak every day. Well, I'll buy it if it's on sale once in a while, but I don't think everybody should have steak every day anyway, so it's not good for your body.  Tim  22:14So you help people plan from a financial perspective. I help them plan from a career perspective. I think it's always hilarious that when I ask somebody they've spent more time planning one vacation or buying one car than they've ever put into where are they going in this life, making decisions, looking at what we're starting with, and mobilizing the assets we've got and the choices we can make towards the future that we want to have. Dave  22:44You're a good example, Tim, you were a chef. You did things and you changed. You've changed careers, and you were good, but then you say, Do I want to do this for the rest of my life? And you made a change, and I made a change. I taught for a couple of years, and I made a change. If people look ahead and say, Okay, I gotta, I gotta change, make a change in my direction, because otherwise, if I keep going this way, I'm going to fall off the cliff.  Tim  23:08Yeah, yeah. Or somebody else can decide when I fall off the cliff.  Dave  23:12Well, as I've said to you, and other people say, I'll live to, I want to live to 125 because I want to see them, uh, grow up. But, yeah, that's not going to happen. But it's think that way. Maybe it does.  Tim  23:22Yeah, and some people start with more privilege than others, or better situations than others. But wherever you're starting, having a plan and being intentional versus leaving it up to chance, you'll do better off regardless of your starting position. We do this little game here where we play a hopscotch game between guests. In a previous episode, we had Jared Vandermeer, who was a social media expert, join us, and he lobbed a question, which we're going to play for you now that I'd like you to respond to. Jared  23:52Let's talk screen time. I challenge you to look at your screen time on your phone, if you're comfortable, share your screen time with the audience and then let us know what you're doing to manage it, if anything, at this current time. Dave  24:05I, first of all, I probably don't know my screen time because I use my phone what's changed, and I'm not making excuses. This is, this is my diary, you might say, and everything in it, because I… Tim  24:17Yeah, same thing. It's our office on our hip.  Dave  24:21It's a tool. Yeah, it's not. Now, I would probably say, I we talk screen time. I'd like to say, Okay, let's What's your screen time in front of that TV? Yes, to me, it's true screen time. And yeah, I say there's people that spend hours, an hour in front of a TV and watching, what do they watch? Nothing. Oh, I'm going to watch the news, their news crazy or whatever. And I watch TV, but what I really enjoy is, if you can learn, even my grandkids like sitting there watching a cartoon is one thing. Sitting there and watching a program that is a learning, use it as a learning tool. The Smithsonian on TV is free use now, and the history and things like, that's what. To learn. That's good screen time. Yeah, okay, that's like reading it. That's a video book, almost, because you're seeing history and actual photos and things like that. That's good screen time watching some movie. I know people that they're movie buffs, and they go, that's all they watch. And I think you gotta differentiate. There's nothing wrong with screen time, we see it now how it's come into the educational system. The kids can watch it, but it's not watching cartoons. It's a learning tool.  Tim  25:29Is there quality screen time versus something that's keeping you from investing that time in better ways? We should be a little more discerning when we say screen time to are there things that can help us grow? So I love that answer, Dave. Dave  25:46Yeah, I think it's the old adage, like a picture's worth 1000 words. You get good screen time. You've got 10,000 words, and the memory of a picture is a lot greater than the memory reading from a book. I'm not saying you don't remember. It's just that the picture is there and you can visualize, and if you can visualize something down the road in 10 years, five years. I mean, I can, like I said to you earlier, I remember that movie The Millionaire, and I can, you can almost picture some of the old TV. And I can't remember the guy's name or what. But the thing is, it imprints, is there, but the book isn't the same as a picture as that picture. This is why this has become a lot more usable. Problem is they've let the use of this not why they ban it in schools. Is because the kids are saying, well, I'm texting out Sally over there in the other side of the room, and we're going back and forth and things like that. That's not the intended use. Whereas, if they said go into Google this and Google dinosaurs, will say, you know, if you see, you know, a video on dinosaurs and how they lived and things like that, it sinks in. It's an impression that kids suddenly say, Oh yeah, I see that pterodactyl. And now I know what the pterodactyl is. My kids, my grandkids, when they you know, we go to the drunk Heller, and they know the names of the dinosaurs, and they're six years old, for crying out love, if you can bring that type of screen time in early ages, it really helps them down the road in terms of reading and things like that.  Tim  27:17In the 15th century, intellectuals and religious leaders were fearful that, because of the printing press, books would overload the population with information and ideas. And there was a scientist called Conrad Gessner. He lived around 1550 in there. He warned that the flood of information was going to be confusing and harmful coming from books that most people couldn't handle it. And we have to think of the quality of information that are pulling in the intended use. And so we have to, you know, get really chunky on what's the what is the good use of this tool, this new technology, and what is the harmful use, and don't confuse and conflate the two. And make sure that we're being pretty honest when we consider these things. Dave  28:08Am I going to read a book about dinosaurs, or am I going to show pictures of dinosaurs and talk about it, okay? And this is one thing people should think about. Talk about visualization. One sugar cube is roughly four grams. The number of sugar cubes on different things. The highest one was the Tim Hortons candy cane hot chocolate.  Tim  28:28Yeah, how many sugar cubes?  Dave 28:3116Tim 28:3116?Dave 28:32In one cup. Tim 28:33Yeah, so that's… Dave  28:3364.Tim 28:3364 grams… that's  a quarter of a cup. So you don't, are you gonna put a, would you sit down with a spoon or a straw and drink a quarter cup of sugar? Probably not. Dave  28:46But, and so when I look at when I look at when I go, if I go shopping, and I look at the gram, because being diabetic, you gotta see how much is the sugar. I mean, I can visualize when I say what it says, 16 grams of sugar. I say, hold it. Like one cookie is 16 grams of sugar. It's like a muffin is 30 grams of sugar. You say, What is 30 grams? I can tell you what 30 grams is, it's seven and a half sugar cubes. I say, Oh, crap, I can't eat that.  Tim  29:11You're gonna be a lot better off translate Dave  29:13Things that sort of, you can remember so to speak. Tim  29:16Yeah, yeah. We used to say speak in people's currency, because working with, if I'm working with one of my very first regional management jobs with was with a large scale food manufacturer, and I would be talking about waste, and if you're talking in dollars and cents, that didn't mean a lot to people on the line. But if I said we're throwing out the equivalent of two dump trucks full of dough every week. That's what we're after. That's what we're chasing. And that meant something to them, because they could visualize a dump truck full of dough. Okay, Dave, last question, what would be something in life that you would be one business that you would be just curious about asking a stranger, that you could get some out of the box thinking with something you're interested in related to life or work or whatnot. What would you ask somebody? What would be a question that would be on your mind? Dave  30:14What are your goals in life here that you want to achieve? Because that determines what road you go down, that's your road map. What is your goal in life? What's the most important thing in life that you feel is something you would want to do? You got to be able to visualize things that comes to planning and everything else you know. And if you can do that, if you apply that same concept in your life and financial and everything else, if you know what the goal is, the quality falls into place, that's the philosophy of life.  Tim  30:43Well thanks very much for spending this time with me, Dave. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host. Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

2-16-25 PM "The Proper Administration of the Lord's Supper"Sermon Text: Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 30, I Corinthians 11:17-34I. Includes a True Testimony A. Of a Full Pardon B. By a Sufficient SacrificeII. Includes a Worthy Participation A. By Those Experiencing Repentance B. By Those Exercising FaithIII. Includes a Solemn Exclusion A. The Object of the Exclusion B. The Reason for the ExclusionRev. Greg Lubbers

0:14Good morning, good morning, good afternoon.0:15How are you doing out there in the world?0:18And well, this is a revamp of prepare responder covers program we put on last two, oh, guess two years ago, right, We started with it.0:29I'm looking into all different aspects of what it is to respond to large scale emergencies and not just Emergency Management. Still, we're looking at law, fire, EMS, private industry, public side of things.0:47It's a broad brush.0:49And so I'm excited.0:51And so Todd and I, Todd Manzat is the 2 Todd's here.0:55Start talking about it, what it is and, and, and you know, he's got some really great insight.1:01I've known Todd for a while now.1:04And as you can tell here, the Blue Cell is the premier sponsor of this program.1:08And so I want to thank Todd for that.1:10And Todd, welcome.1:11Welcome to our show, I guess, for lack of better term.1:14Hey, well, thanks, thanks for the welcome.1:16And, you know, it was, it was kind of funny as we were kind of batting this around at the end of last year and, you know, here we are now getting ready to kind of jump right into it.1:29But certainly the world's events have helped us to have at least some stuff to talk about in the last 30 days.1:38It feels like it's April already.1:40And I know we'll get into a little bit of that.1:42But thanks for having me.1:43I'm glad to be part of it.1:46I think this is the longest January I've ever lived, Right?1:53Well, it's, you know, in some ways we're thinking back a little bit to, you know, what's going on.1:58I was in New Orleans this week and the events of New Year's Eve are in the distant past when they're worried about the Super Bowl.2:06They had a snowstorm and they had a a Sugar Bowl.2:09And it's, it's really interesting that the tempo right now is as real as it gets with regards to, you know, what we are going to be talking about here, you know, interested about that.2:22It's like, you know, obviously the, the events of January 1st with both New Orleans and Vegas, how quickly it came out of, out of the news cycle because you know, fires happened in, in, in California, you know, and that kept us hopping over here.2:40You know, obviously you guys all know that I live in, well, maybe not everybody, but I, I live in Southern California.2:46And so those fires directly impacted my area, not necessarily where I live, but close enough to where I have friends that lost homes and stuff in the fire.2:57So, I mean, and then then we got rain right after that, which is causing problems.3:03And then there's snow storms in in Louisiana in the South that's causing problems there.3:07And we're still not recovering from Hurricane Helene, You know, And then in the midst of all this, we get a new presidential administration, which is definitely moving fast, you know, And yeah, so are, are we going to be able to take your breath?3:28Well, you know, I don't know that we have a choice, right?3:30It's that kind of race.3:32And, you know, being as ready as we can be in different places, that's kind of part of it.3:38So that the folks who are sprinting as fast as they can can be relieved.3:41And one of the things that was interesting when I was in, in Louisiana this past week, they were talking about barring snow plows from another state.3:49Who, who does know how to do that, you know, pretty interestingly.3:52And then obviously, unfortunately, the events in DC with the, with the plane crash as the, you know, the most recent thing, another really, you know, significant type of event and response.4:09Just hearing, you know, some of the press conference stuff where they're talking about, you know, the things that, you know, I teach all the time, Unified command 300 responders out there.4:21Got to replace those responders.4:23Got a lot going on, got a lot of media, right.4:26All those aspects of something that makes any kind of response a little more complex.4:34Definitely it's going to be a a fun filled year of topics if we stay at this at this pace for sure.4:44Yeah, I want to talk about that plane crash here for forbid, not not about the plane crunch itself, but about how as a those of us in the field, you know, I know a whole bunch of people that are traveling at any given time.5:01I mean, you're one of them, a couple of friends down in Texas.5:05You have a friend of mine who carries Fronza, who's the president of IEM, who she was travelling during this time.5:13And I went to my, my, my click box of, oh, who do I need?5:17Who do I need to call to see if they're impacted by this?5:20And even if it's something as far away as DC, you know, and now you're going, oh, crap.5:25I mean, I called you or at least reached out to you to see if you know if you're travelling yet.5:30So you don't.5:30It's just this is amazing, like how small of a world we truly are when it comes to that.5:36And then I have friends that work and you do too, Todd, you know, that work in the capital that a part of Metro and and and DC fire and Fairfax fire.5:46And you know, you, you see this happening.5:48You're going, these are people who you know closely that are already impacted by this event, let alone the tragedy of the those lives that were lost, you know, in this tragic accident.6:01And I think that's part of the thing with what we do here between you and myself and, and the, and the organizations that, you know, we do touch every aspect of, of the United States and at some point global when it comes to Emergency Management, We're going to be able to bring those, that perspective to, to the this conversation.6:24Yeah.6:24I think the, the other thing that kind of jumped out at me was, you know, trying to think back through the history and, and certainly some of the legacy media folks were talking about the last time we had a crash and how long ago it was.6:38And in fact, I don't know if you picked up on it.6:41That last one was Buffalo and obviously Buffalo, NY.6:46You've got connections to that place, right?6:48Yeah, yeah, right.6:52And I'm headed to Binghamton, NY next Friday, which is not that far down the road.6:57So it's, you know, to bring it somewhat full circle, preparedness, response and recovery are interconnected.7:05All these disciplines are interconnected.7:09How we do things, we're trying to make them as interconnected, you know, as possible.7:17And I think it's going to be the right conversation, especially when we bring some doctrinal things in and and talking about some specific topics and then trying to overlay it to things that are really happening.7:31I think that's going to be one of the unique things about the conversation, hopefully, as we move the show forward.7:38Yeah, absolutely.7:39And I think the other thing too, Todd, that you know, you and I have some really deep conversations, you know, when it comes to the state of Emergency Management, the state of disaster response, you know, where where we need to go and how to get there.7:57And you know, the fact that we have a kind of book in this thing here, but we have progressive states that look at Emergency Management and disaster response and disaster preparedness and planning as holistic, right?8:13So that means like fire, police, EMS, public works, right, that we always forget, you know, public health, they're all involved in the conversation.8:23And then you have some States and somewhere areas that are myopic, right?8:27And they're very much silos on everything they they do.8:30I think some of the conversation that we're going to have here is hopefully to break down those silos and and be able to have those full conversations that we are all hazards approach to everything that we look at.8:42And I think that's critical, right?8:45And I think also in the, you know, our show concept, and I think it's important to share, you know, in this first episode, it won't just be me and you hanging out with each other.8:55I think our concept of bringing in guests as a, a third element to the show, a third voice, I think will be important.9:04I know you're working on lining up a few.9:06I'm working on lining up a few.9:08It'll be exciting.9:09And, you know, as we move into the coming weeks to get that guest line up out to folks and they can kind of hear a perspective and we'll definitely, you know, be leveraging our relationships.9:21I think to to bring in some strong, strong individuals to give a dynamic focus on, you know, what we're talking about.9:31And Speaking of relationships, I mean, you know, the other good part about this too is Todd, you and I both have some good relationships with some people that can bring really great insight.9:43And so we'll be leveraging those relationships as well to be able to bring you the audience some more insight to what what's happening in, in close to real time as possible.9:53And then of course, you know, my position with IEM allow some conversations to to happen as well.10:01And the Today as an example, well, we, we have to talk a little bit about the, the elephant in the room is what's going on with FEMA.10:10The, the president has set forth his vision on, on making changes.10:16And I don't think there's an emergency manager in the United States right now that doesn't think the Stafford Act needs to be, you know, looked at and, and fixed, right?10:30You know, it's an old act, right?10:33And that FEMA does need to have, you know, to be maybe remodeled a little bit.10:38Sure.10:39I, I definitely don't think it should be destroyed and taken away, But you know, where does it belong and, and, and how does it work?10:47And you know, I've been calling for a few years now.10:49Well, let's say probably over 10 years now that FEMA should be a stand alone agency.10:53And there's, there's cons and pros for both for, for all of this, right?10:59And then today I got to sit down with the acting administrator, Hamilton to hear a little bit about his background and what his, his, you know, his goals are.11:11And the good thing is, is what he's doing right now is listening to the emergency managers out there, meeting with the big groups such as IEM and Nima, big cities, meeting with them to discuss what their needs and goals and, and desires are when it comes to what FEMA is and can be.11:34And I think it's a really important first step.11:37And I, and I commend them for that.11:40Yeah.11:40You know, the, the, the basic rules and kind of organizational leadership are you, you got to, got to figure out what your objectives are, to figure out what your mission is, that type of thing.11:51And, and many times it's a driving factor in where you end up or who you're working for working under and, and how it's supposed to work.12:00I think, you know, that revisit it's, it's not something necessarily that, you know, every time you get a new leader in that you need to do that, But you also can't go 20 or 30 or 40 years and have problems and not do it.12:16And you know, there obviously is a, has been for some time a heartbeat out there saying, Hey, let's let's have it as a, a cabinet member.12:27And my position is whether it's a cabinet member or not, it's still going to come down to the mission, the organization, understanding what the mission is and the talent that's inside the organization.12:40I was in this little teeny organization for a short time called the United States Marine Corps.12:45It's a it's a branch under a department, but everybody knows who we are.12:51Everybody knows what we do because we've got a clear mission.12:53I've had it for 250 years and we're the best at what we do.12:57So in some ways, when you do it well, it doesn't matter that you're not equal to the Department of the Navy and under the Department of the Navy, just as an example.13:09And so I think that's going to be a hard, long conversation and a lot of work that'll have to be done to establish that capability that is not only understood but is respected and is effective in the field.13:27Because that's what's been coming into question is it's effectiveness in the field.13:31Where it sits organizationally probably doesn't have much to do with that.13:35So I think it'll be interesting moving forward.13:39I'm not watching from afar.13:40Certainly have a lot of folks that I'm talking to that are, they're nervous and they're trying to, you know, decipher what's happening and figure it out and where do I fit in?13:51In the end, you got to do the best job that you can and not have that question because you did the best job that could be done.13:58And so I I think that'll be something worth talking about moving forward and, and watching how it kind of transpires.14:08Yeah, absolutely.14:09And, and you're right, I think nervousness, I think is a good word to say.14:13Uncertainty, right?14:14It breeds nervousness a little bit.14:15And I think that's kind of where we're at.14:17And, you know, the current administration's communication style is, is interesting at the at the best or at the worst, I suppose, or whichever we look at it is sometimes I believe, you know, President Trump just floats things out there just to see how people react.14:34And, you know, he's a, he's interesting guy that way.14:40And I think it takes a little bit of time to get used to that style of communication.14:45Whether you agree with it or not.14:46It just says it is what it is, right?14:48You know, not just talking about the yeah, go ahead.14:55I was going to say that.14:56I was just going to judge.15:01We all have to get used to how Manhattan downtown developers do business.15:08That's, that's what we have to get used to.15:10And, and most of us haven't had to deal with that.15:13So it's a, it's a different way that things get done.15:17There's no question.15:19Yeah, absolutely.15:20And like I said, I'm not, I'm not judging it.15:23I'm not putting a value to it.15:24I'm just saying it is what it is.15:25And this is what we have to deal with.15:26You know, I, I think as emergency managers and, and, and guys that are in the field, you know, when we're looking at situations, we have to understand that we don't have time to placate on whether we agree with something or not.15:43We just have to deal with the consequences of what's happening.15:45And, and, and this is where we're at.15:47We have to deal with the consequences that, that, that are happening.15:51And so, you know, that being said, you know, what is the future of Emergency Management when it comes to to what the federal government believes in?16:03That's going to be a long conversation.16:05You know, you know, and we, we have a long history of things changing.16:13And I think we forget this because, you know, we we live in the generation that we're in, right?16:20And we may look back at the previous generations, but we live in where we're at and what we're used to and in that comfort zone.16:28And, you know, I think if we reflect back to when, you know, Franklin Donald Roosevelt created an office that would look at Emergency Management, if you will, without using the terminology.16:39It's where we grew up from, you know, to Truman turned it into really the civil defense of what we think of today, you know, with the Burt the Turtle and all that nuclear stuff that they were dealing with.16:50And and then it kind of got to Jimmy Carter at this point where he turned it into FEMA in 79.16:56And then, of course, the Stafford Act.16:58These are chunks that we didn't live in, right?17:01You know, some I, I, you know, realistically, Todd, you and I, we're from, you know, 70s into the, to the 80s when we were, you know, kids and then we're working.17:12The experience has been this short box.17:14So we look at these boxes that we've lived in and not understanding what the, what the history was and what the changes are.17:20So, so this too, you know, will be a little uncomfortable, but maybe it's uncomfortable that we need to be better.17:28And if we look at it that way and, and as long as we're part of the conversation, that's my only concern is if we start having conversation without us, then what does that mean?17:38Right, right.17:40And I think the, the other thing, just analyzing it a little bit as an outsider looking in, I think what are the alternatives going to be?17:51You know, they're, they're talking about a few alternatives and, and putting pressure or responsibility in other places, like for example, the states.18:00Well, they better do a true analysis of whether that capability is actually there.18:07It sounds great and it probably looks good on paper, but there's going to be a harsh reality that that may not be the answer.18:17And I'm, I'm not going to call out any one state or any 10 states or any 25 states.18:22I'm just going to say there will be serious questions as to whether certain states can take on those previous FEMA responsibilities.18:33And I think it could be a bigger mess and a bigger tragedy if that's not really looked at very, very hard and and very critically in terms of what the capabilities actually are in some of those locations.18:51You know, I think about the fires that we just had here in Los Angeles County and one of the last fires that kicked off as this thing was burning, you know, they were able to put 4000 firefighters onto a fire in in a very short period of time to stop it from burning up the town of Castaic or the village, I guess, right.19:13We got lucky in one aspect that there were already firefighters down here from all over the place that we can, we, we can move those assets over.19:20You know, that's one state.19:23State of California is unique in that aspect of it.19:26I mean, I don't think and, and I'm going to pick on a state and I mean, I can, you know, if, if you fear for that state, please let me, I'm telling you, I don't know the assets.19:35So I'm not not saying that you can't do it.19:37But if you took like Montana, for instance, who has lot of wild land fires, I don't know if they could put in in in 30 minutes of a fire kicking off, Could they put 4000 firefighters on that fire in 30 minutes of a kicking off?19:52Or Colorado for that matter, where you're from, you know, do they have those assets?19:57And, and maybe they do, maybe they don't, but that's the difference between having mutual aid and the federal government coming in to be able to pay for things on the back end than it is to to not right.20:09And and again, maybe Montana and Colorado could put those assets on their.20:13I'm not, I'm not trying to say that you're not on issues as an example, I want to be clear on that.20:19But you know, without federal assistance immediately, can the smaller states handle those large scale disasters as quickly as they can right now?20:34Sure.20:34I yeah, I definitely think that's, you know, that resource management piece is a is a big aspect of it.20:40But let's say you're a week into it, do some of the states have the ability to even manage that?20:50You know, when we start to think about some of the large scale operations and you know, maybe maybe you have an Emergency Management office, full time staff of 20 people that may not have, you know, the ability or the experience of handling, you know, that type of complexity.21:11That is the word that always bothers me.21:16The, the actual complexity.21:18You know, incident command speaks to it quite a bit.21:21We've got a pretty good system for incident command.21:23We've got a pretty good system at the top tier of who manages complex incidents and who's qualified to manage complex incidents.21:32Well, you know, some of that would somewhat come into question if you don't have that guidance from, from FEMA or even some of their support from an IMAP perspective.21:42And then we're that we're going to rely on a state agency of, of 16 people to, to be able to do it.21:51I don't know.21:52I I think it's definitely something that it's going to be a, a bridge we have to cross if that's the direction that we end up going.22:00Yeah, absolutely.22:01And, and, and going back to some of the smaller states.22:03And I'll pick on Maine here for a minute because I was talking, I was talking to one of the guys from Maine and they have volunteer emergency managers, you know, you know, and I'm like, well, and it blew my mind when we had this conversation with him.22:22I'm like, you know, I I never thought about that, that you have a town, you know, a state that's so, you know, sparsely populated in some areas that they just have some dude who's like, all right, I'll, I'll do it for a volunteer.22:34You know, like that means you get your regular day job that you're doing and in the evening, maybe you're, you know, you're doing Emergency Management stuff.22:42Yeah, that kind of that kind of blows my mind a little bit.22:45So, you know, what do we do with states like that that don't even have the ask the the ability to pay for emergency managers, you know, to live in what?22:53I mean, you know, how do we ask?22:56How do we?22:56And the support doesn't necessarily, you know, I want to rewind the minute, the support doesn't necessarily have to be be people on the ground, right?23:05You know, those volunteer emergency managers in Maine may have the the capabilities of doing it as on a volunteer basis because they don't have a lot of disasters that occurred.23:13That's fine.23:13I'm not, I'm not making fun of that position.23:17What I'm saying is they need support and the support that they might get might just be from training, you know, grants to help pay for things because obviously their tax base is going to be lower.23:29So they may need those, those grants from from the federal government to to pay for programs, you know, the send people to EMI or whatever they change their name to, you know, you know, for, for training, you know, the university.23:50Is that the university?23:52FEMA you or, or, you know, used to be FEMA you.23:56yeah.com.23:58Good Lord.23:59Something we're going to, we're going to send us hate mail.24:02Jeff Stearns, Doctor Stearns, We're not making fun of you, man.24:05We're just right.24:12Excuse me, but yeah.24:14I mean, we go into this like, how do we support those smaller states that don't have big budgets?24:20I'm lucky to be from living in California and from New York, which are, you know, have big budgets, but I mean, heck, even New York State, you know, I mean, if you want to take a look at the responders in New York State, there's the majority of the responders in New York State are volunteer.24:41You know, it's one of the states that there are more Volunteer Fire departments in New York State than paid, you know, So what does that look like?24:50And, and what support are they getting from, from the federal government, whether it's through FEMA, the National Forest Service, I help it out with, with different grants and stuff.25:00The you, you know, out here in, in the West Coast, we have BLM, which has firefighting assets and things that could be used.25:09There's a lot of stuff that National Forest Service.25:12There's a lot of stuff that we're relying upon and maybe even too much, right?25:17Maybe that's the back of our mind and and we're relying on those, those assets.25:22You don't compare it to saying let's pretend they don't exist, right?25:26I don't know.25:28That's the stuff I think is making a lot of people nervous about some of the changes that are going on right now of the unknown answers to unknown questions.25:39Yeah.25:41Well, it's going to be interesting.25:42It's going to be good.25:43And we'll kind of start to figure out right the next, next episode and who knows who's going to be in what jobs.25:54So we, we may, we may get a, a really good guess right as we, as we move forward or some of the folks who've previously been in those positions that give us some insight.26:06I think that's really our goal.26:10Absolutely.26:11Well, Todd, you know, we're trying to keep these within that 30 minute window and we're coming up to the last few minutes here on our conversation.26:22Is there anything that you'd like to say to the listeners out there that are coming back and, and how do we, you know, to the new listeners that might be just finding us?26:32I say, you know, TuneIn and we definitely will keep it interested and keep it moving from that perspective and, and give some feel reporting too.26:41That's one of the things I know that we've talked about that we want to incorporate here because I think it'll give a little bit different feel to to the conversation.26:52But I think this was a good one to get us started and look forward to talking to you next week.27:00Absolutely, my friend.27:01Looking forward to seeing you next week.27:03It's always, it's always nice to see that big smile right there very often.27:09Right.27:09Yeah.27:11All right, all right, everybody, until next time, you know, stay safe and well, stay hydrated. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit emnetwork.substack.com/subscribe

“Do Not Be Anxious”Matthew 6:25-34I. ANXIETY IN RELATION TO OUR MASTERII. THE LIES OF ANXIETY AND WORRYIII. THE FIGHT OF FAITH

In this episode, Tim welcomes Amreesh Khanna, a visionary entrepreneur and the founder of OraQ, a company revolutionizing the dental industry through clinical AI solutions. Amreesh shares how OraQ is standardizing patient exams, empowering patients with transparency, and strengthening the patient-clinician relationship through informed decisions and trust. He explains how dentists play a crucial role in identifying and preventing systemic health issues such as cardiac and respiratory problems. Amreesh also highlights the potential of AI in healthcare, including its ability to predict patient outcomes and personalize treatment plans.Beyond his professional endeavors, Amreesh discusses his passion for community service and his work with the nonprofit organization Cause to Smile, which aims to empower the dental community and support local initiatives. He reflects on the importance of balancing professional ambitions with giving back and shares insights on leadership, decision-making, and reframing failure as a learning opportunity. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about innovation in healthcare, leadership lessons, and the power of community impact.About Amreesh Khanna Dr. Amreesh Khanna refers to himself as a professional tooth enthusiast, more commonly known as a Dentist. He has a deep passion for the integration of AI/ML in clinical applications and is at the forefront of advancing precision dental care through his start-up, OraQ AI. This company is dedicated to redefining ethical dental practice growth by prioritizing optimal patient care.With over 17 years of clinical dental experience, Dr. Khanna has encountered numerous challenges and successes on his entrepreneurial journey as a dental practice owner. In terms of patient care, he has been involved in complex treatments, including dental implants, bone and gum grafting, IV conscious sedation, dental sleep medicine for patients with obstructive sleep apnea, and oral rehabilitation for individuals with complex TMD, tooth wear, and bite concerns.Dr. Khanna remains actively engaged in his field as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Alberta Faculty of Medicine and Dentistry. Additionally, he has established his own dental education platform called ADEPT Dental Education, which aims to drive accelerated growth on the clinical and business sides of Dentistry.Community involvement has always held great importance in Dr. Khanna's life. As a dental student, he founded the SHINE Dental Clinic in Edmonton to provide dental care to those in need. He also leads a non-profit organization called Cause to Smile, which strives to "do good beyond the walls of our clinics."Away from his professional endeavors, Dr. Khanna enjoys traveling with his wife and two young daughters, creating cherished memories that will last a lifetime.Resources discussed in this episode:Startup TNTShine Dental ClinicTec CanadaCause to SmileGiannis Antetokounmpo--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Amreesh Khanna | OraQ AI: Website: oraq.aiInstagram: @dramreeshkhannaLinkedin: Amreesh Khanna--TranscriptAmreesh  00:01There's no failure in leadership if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders. But if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best, well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too. Because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today, or able to do it right?Tim  00:33I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action. Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and this is the 50th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim  1:06Welcome back to the sweet on leadership podcast, where we explore stories and strategies behind remarkable leaders, and we're certainly joined by one of those today. I am thrilled that sitting across from me virtually is Amreesh Khanna, a visionary, an entrepreneur, driving force behind Ora! AI. Amreesh, we've known each other now for about two years, roughly, having met through Startup TNT, I am so impressed at how you are disrupting your industry in such a positive and empowering way for both the dental community and the patients, and I would love for you to introduce yourself and and let us into what drives you in that space. So, welcome Amreesh. Amreesh  01:53Thank you so much. Tim. I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, and thank you for thinking of me to bring you on here, share my experiences and hopefully give something insightful to your listeners. Yeah, it's been great getting to know you and through the tech community here in Calgary, Startup, TNT, as you mentioned, was kind of what brought us together initially, and where I was sharing my journey, and you know, where we were going with my startup called OraQ AI.  What we're doing, you know, a little bit, I guess, call it about myself and what we're doing with OraQ, we're the only clinical AI solution in dentistry that standardizes a comprehensive patient exam and engages a patient with full transparency and ownership of their oral health data. What does that mean to you and your listeners? I mean, we've all got a story where one dentist told you one thing and another dentist told you something else, and you're kind of like sitting there leaving, like, are they just trying to sell me on something I don't really get that? You know, I've had this feeling this way, and somebody's now telling me I need a crown. And it's like, why is that happening? And you know, how do we really make sure that patients understand their reasons behind the recommendations in a way that they can truly trust their dentist and know that their dentist does have their overall health at the best interest at the forefront of their mind. But then also at the clinical level. Like our user is the clinician, and their practice is, how do we support the clinicians around precision care, right? And how do we drive those decisions around what we need to do for our patient, you know, to not be tooth to tooth dentists like let's look at the patient as a whole. Let's look at them comprehensively. Let's look at their medical health, how that all impacts their overall wellness journey, and make sure that we can empower them with the information that they need all at the tips of their fingers. We call it the mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists to both dentists and patients, so we can make better decisions, more informed decisions, and then empower our patients to make the right decision as well too. Tim  03:45I think that's absolutely fantastic. I've always been told and maybe you can clear this up for me, the mouth says so many things about the health of the body, but also and tell me if this is true, if you've got poor dental health, you typically can have cardiac problems, you can have respiratory problems, you can be at increased risks for for cancer and gastrointestinal issues. Is that? Is that? Is that a thing?Amreesh  04:11Yeah. I mean, you know, so one of the things that is always a big component at least of my clinical education journey was what we call the oral, systemic health connection, the dental medical connection, right? I went to the University of Alberta for dental school, and through my educational journey over there, medical and dental was actually together for the first two years, so we did all the medical classes alongside with our dental classes. And I mean, I loved it. I was probably one of the Keeners that loved it, the few that really loved it that way. But it's because I found it so fascinating, again, because everything is connected, right. With that connection, at the end of the day, infection in our body, inflammation in the mouth, all translates to have effects with other things like you mentioned, right? You know, cardiovascular issues. It's linked to preterm births with women who are pregnant. And one big thing we look at now sleep disorder, breathing, obstructive sleep apnea, right? And the amount of research that's come over the past 10 plus years that shows how we look at clenching and grinding and people that we'd say, Oh, you're stressed out, you're grinding your teeth, let's give you a night guard. Really, it was all stemming to an underlying airway disturbance that dentists and hygienists and the dental community are in a very unique position to be able to screen for these things. Because you see your dentist often, a lot more than you see your family physician, right? And so how can we play a role in early intervention prevention, flagging those areas of concern, so that now we can tell you, hey, something might be going on here, right? Like, we're not seeing you improving in, say, your periodontal, your gum health. Well, is there something else going on? Like, are you diabetic? Do you have, you know, you know, cardiovascular issues, other inflammatory markers in your body that could translate to other issues, right, and play a role in that, right? So find that really fascinating. Again, part of the core in our AI platform too, is, well, how do we bring that awareness to everybody? Right? Because, you know, not everybody might have geeked out the same way that I did when it came out to the medical side of things, right? So how do we bring that mind and the wisdom of 1000 dentists, again, so that every patient coming in the door, we understand what is their medical risk, even so that we can screen for things early, we can send them back to their doctor to say, hey. Like, we're not saying we're a physician here, but like, go get something checked out something doesn't seem right here. Rather, you check it out and make sure you're okay, then find out later that something got way worse than they could have intervened earlier too, right?Tim  06:37Well, and a dental visit is much more accepted as a maintenance style activity, rather than than solely an intervention with a disease or something. But I imagine, I mean fascinating to find out how many people will talk more regularly about their health to their Barber. I don't have that problem, but to their Barber, their hairdresser, than they do to their doctor, because it's a maintenance activity. They're there on a schedule more or less, and you know, the doctor is going to check your tonsils and look in your mouth anyway. So if you've got a healthcare provider that's under the hood, you know, on a regular basis, that should be a logical place to start collecting data, triggering further investigation, doing all of those things that the patient themselves may not appreciate is going on.Amreesh  07:26You got it. And I think that's exactly the core to our solution, is bringing that awareness first, have asking the right questions, right? Because, you know, as a healthcare provider, we can ask and we need to be asking those questions, right, instead of your barber, right? What medications are you on? Right? Understanding, connecting those dots again. But what if one clinician is not asking all of the questions, they're only asking 20% of them, and another clinician is asking 50% and another clinician is asking 80 or 100% Why does that happen? Right? And it's all because, I mean, we're all human. We all have our mind full of a ton of things that we're trying to do the best for the, you know, patient, or the service, or, you know, industry that we're providing care with to that individual. But if we can just sometimes nudge and support like, I mean, what we truly are is a clinical decision support system, right, is nudge to collect the right information. Give you meaning around the information as a clinician, firstly, to understand that what's the impact of that information I just collected on my patient and my plan. And then give you as a patient an understanding of it, so that you sit up and you see your health in green, yellow and red and know, okay, shoot, I don't know what all that other stuff meant that you just told me about, but I know green is good, yellow is okay, and red is bad, right? And so what do I got to do about this? Tim  08:50Customize the dashboard for the level of knowledge or the level of expertise of the of the patient, so they have a check engine light around their their health and I think that that's, yeah, that's, that's amazing. Plus, I mean, just from a data perspective, centralizing data, making it available to everybody, getting that, that holistic picture, even though you're doing it through different people, and filling in the blanks, it's so important, because otherwise we just have all this orphan knowledge and orphan data just floating out there. And how do we, we're relying on the patient to centralize that and communicate that story in a layman's term, from from provider to provider, rather than, yeah. Okay with you. I think that. I think that that's fantastic. Before we get going too much further, I want us to hear from Karen Dommett. She had a question for you as a guest, which is a bit of a tradition, and don't worry, at the end of the podcast, you're going to have a chance to lob your own question at the next guest. But for right now, let's, let's take a listen to Karen's.Karen Dommett  09:53So, when you find yourself at a crossroads of conflicting good that conflicts with good, yeah. How do you find that moment of clarity or that direction in those conflicting moments? Amreesh  10:05You know this ties into probably a deeper discussion even today, is that like as driven entrepreneurs, leaders, executives, we often like want everything to be right and ensure that we have de-risked every decision that we've made, and find the data and the pros and cons and the lists that we make, and everything to make that right decision. I think something that maybe I don't trust enough too and that would help me on this is that gut and intuition right? Like, trusting that we've come this far to be in a position that we are in to be, you know, have the honor of making a decision like that, right? That people are trusting us with that decision, that we also have to trust a little bit in our intuition and gut and around what's guiding us there, right? And then take the chance. In this particular question, we're choosing between two good things, where we're not going to know what the end result outcome might be, but we know we're choosing between two good things, so we've done the analysis to really know that these are two directions that are good for us, but what's gonna what is my gut maybe pulling me towards? Because there's something there that we probably can't, you know, articulate or give a reason behind, but something's going to draw us to one or the other. And I think you got to trust that.Tim  11:25And I think it's it's funny when you watch leaders at those crossroads and they have to make that decision. Often, they can find what they were looking for in the in the second decision down the road, or it wasn't as binary decision as they thought it was going to be. It could be a matter of timing or something. But, you know, making that decision and having I love that what you said, you know, we are privileged to have that, that ability to be the one deciding. And so Trust yourself, trust your gut, keep going. Love it. Great, great. And that, again, was from Karen Dommett. Karen is the manager of Games and Competition at Special Olympics Canada, so great episode with her wonderful conversation. And I'd recommend that you take a listen very inspiring stuff. Speaking of which, you don't just run OraQ, you've got this history of running, not for profits, volunteer organizations, philanthropy. Can you tell me a little more about that? Because I think that's a that's a part of your profile that I find, again, just very inspiring.Amreesh  12:36Yeah. Anyway, you know, I think I was brought up always with community and giving as something that was very important to me. My parents came to Canada from India in the late 70s. Always were involved in, you know, the East Indian community in town, finding ways to give back, support, help in whatever way they could, you know. And so I saw a lot of that growing up. And, you know, got involved in ways to do so. And I think what I realized over time was that you know, I was doing it, and why was I doing it right? Like, I would maybe grade some fundraising thing in high school. I, in dental school, I founded a student-run clinic, which is, you know, 20 plus years of existence they call the Shine Dental Clinic in Edmonton. And I was like, Well, why am I doing this, and what, how do I get the energy to do this, amongst all the other things that I'm doing? To me, that aspect of giving filled a certain bucket in my life that other things couldn't, right? Not saying that there was deficiency or something lacking in other things that I was involved in, whether that's, you know, My family, it's my friends, it's a social circles. You know, beliefs, you have your professional ambitions, but there was something around the giving that still, I couldn't feed in all those other aspects myself, but when I did that, I really lit me up, right? And so, that's where I continue to try to find ways, you know, we're busy doing lots of things all the time, but finding some ways to thread that into my life, and hopefully, just like I was I saw it, and my parents show my two daughters, you know, that's an important part of living, right? So, yeah.Tim  14:15Yeah. Well, and it fills you with an energy, as you say, or a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning that may not be in such great concentrations in other areas of your life. So you're really creating this whole life experience. And yeah, I, you know, you said a little bit about you've had asked, answered questions about finding energy to do it all. And, you know, I think, to Karen's question, you're making choices about where you're going to apply your time, and you're making choices about what you can invest your time in, what you can put support towards, and what you might have to lay fallow, or something right that you can't, you can't deal with right off the bat. How do you find, do you find that there's conflict throughout the different aspects of your life, at least drawing on your own time and things like that? Like, is it? Do you ever get pulled in those two different directions? As Karen says?Amreesh  15:14Yeah, you know, is it like having that ambition and drive? Definitely, you know, I'm always like, oh, wow, like, that's something great. I want to be involved in that, or I want to do this, or I want to do that, right? I think what I've, I've learned over especially, to call it the last five years having, you know, great mentors, coaches, people in my life that kind of helped me piece this together was that if I have multiple things that I'm involved in that ultimately have some overlap and congruency around what is I'm passionate about, what my own personal values are. Then I found that those were actually not conflicting, right? Because the, like, from the outside, somebody might be like, whoa. Like, what do you do? And you're doing all these things, like, how do you find the time to do this, it's amazing? And it's like, yeah, that's crazy. Half the time, yeah, it's crazy. Half the time still, too. Like, not the, you know, my wife will say, You're crazy. It was picking up the next or doing this and doing that, but when they're all tied together, then that's what drives, like, the energy around me, right? And I, I kind of went through this, you know, about, you know, five years ish, go like, you know, I have great personal, you know, coaches, mentors, been part of organizations. I was part of Tec Canada for quite, you know, 10 years. And did this personal values exercise, like you'll see up here, inspire, influence, educate, is something that I put together that was like, Who, what defined me as like values and what I wanted to do, right? So that then, when I looked at okay, what was I doing in my dental practices? What was I doing with my education platform for dentists? What was doing with my nonprofit? What was I doing in Oracle? They all tie back and led to this, right? And they… Yeah. So then for me, it gave me kind of that North Star that I'm like, I'm not distracted, I'm actually just doing different things, but they're all to serve that energy or to serve that ultimate purpose.Tim  17:13You know, when we talk about purpose, especially among high performers and whatnot, there's a fluency around what our purpose is. And then there's the whatever we do in our life, if it furthers that purpose, we achieve that congruency. As you said, it's such a love that word, it just means that it's not I've always found with myself, it's not work. And it sounds like such a trite thing to say, but honestly, I can be working late. I just came through a crazy week this past week, probably one of the nuttiest weeks I've had in years. But it wasn't work. It was it was hard, it was challenging, but it wasn't work and it wasn't exhausting in the same like physically a little exhausting. Mentally, no, no. Mentally, spiritually, whatever you want to put, put it on that side of things. I was living, man. You know what I mean, I'm just exactly where I where I need to be. And so, yeah, I can definitely get down with that. Amreesh  18:18And I was gonna say, like, Tim, like you, like you said, like, yeah, we're physically exhausted, like you probably went to sleep, doesn't it to be like, holy, I am just like, done, right?Tim  18:25Sometimes can't even get to sleep because I'm I am tired physically, but I am so energized mentally and emotionally that you have to kind of go for a walk, listen to a book tape, you know? Yeah, have a cup of tea. Because, you know what I mean?Amreesh  18:41Yeah, what I was gonna say, like, I think like you said it really nice is like, because it's part of your purpose and your drive and your vision and where you want to be and where you're making your impact. That's what still gets us up the next morning to be like, All right, that was like, really hard, but I'm ready to do it again, even though it's like, hard. I'm like, I'm tired, I'm exhausted, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going, right?Tim  19:03So we talk about that energy management. And you know, in my practice, a lot of times, we're always dealing with this balance between creative energy, which is that can be that anxiety-rich, stress-rich, creative process, and then the ability to maintain calm and control and have those systems so that you know that you are, that you are safe, basically, or safe enough. And that you've got the data coming in that you need, and you can just, you know, you can just relax a little bit and say, You know what I've got, what I need. So I'm this picture is emerging for me, of you, Amreesh, where you know you've got this, inspire, influence, educate, purpose. We have this, these community clinics and whatnot that you've set up, these, not for profits, that are helping people, and that's a big part of your Venn diagram. And then over here, we have Q AI, which really, you know, is putting this knowledge, or this information and this data into the hands of both the health provider and the patient, right? And all of that, to me, smacks of creating freedom for other people. Like it's creating, you're empowering other people, and you're doing it through exactly as you've gotten back there, you know. Are you inspiring? Are you influencing? Are you educating? You're giving people data they need. And that, to me, is really on that control side. You know, it's that, yeah, I've got the, I got the base. So can you talk to me a little bit more about that? Am I? Am I reading you right there? Like, is there? Is there? Do you find that that reduce…. like me, do you find that reducing the struggle in people's life is really, is, is really fulfilling?Amreesh  20:58When I put my clinician hat on, like we want to do what's best for our patient, and in order for us to do what's best for our patient, we as a clinician, need to be empowered, as you said, have the right data, have the control, the confidence to do what's best, and we also need the patient to believe it, right? And and so because then we get at a crossroads as clinicians, where sometimes you're like, I want to do the good for my patient, but my patient doesn't accept that if they don't proceed with that treatment for whatever reason. You know, they don't value. That's financial reasons, it's insurance, it's like, whatever. There's a multitude of reasons, but I always go back to value, right? And I think like, data, knowledge, if used in the right way, empowers us all, right? And it gives us then the confidence, right? Because it's, I think, in order to get the trust with a patient, we have to be confident in what and why we're doing something. I mean, you, you, and your listeners would have a feeling where they know they're sitting there with whoever their healthcare provider is. I mean, it's a very, you know, intimate, vulnerable state to be in which whatever provider you're sitting there when they're telling you they're going to do something or stick you with a needle or whatever. But how do you trust them? And you can feel like there's something there that I trust this person, or I'm not sure if I do right. So, like, so I think then get back to like, what you're saying about, like, control and data and all these things. Like, I think I look at it as more like, when I felt good and confident in my clinician journey of treating my patients was when I let go of like, why or why not, my patients are doing something, and just try to do the best for them, right? And so in order for me to do the best, I needed to have the right data, have the right approach with my patients, the right philosophy, the education, everything that I needed to do to feel that confidence. So then I could say, Hey, Tim, this is all what's going on, like, but I support you, whatever way you want to go. That's when I saw, hey, my practice thrive, right? And I was doing the fun dentistry, making an impact on many patients. Like, you're not going to win everybody over, right? But they just might not be ready at that time. And patients valued it. Patients could see it, you could feel it right, and then at the same time, now we're empowering a patient to understand that. So I think there's, like, there's all these like, kind of gaps that I saw, like, hence, you know, where a division of work you came about to kind of solve those pain points, solve those gaps. Tim  23:38Yeah, well, the way I'm seeing it is, OraQ is also, what I love…  I know. Sorry, I mean, this is, I'm taking this a little too far, but it's taking that practice of, you know, going with, how do we help them help themselves, or or whatnot. How do we do what's best for them? And it's, it's systemizing it. So let me ask you this question, because a lot of people that are listening are not going to be dentists, but everything that you've just said when it comes to, you know, focusing on value and confidence, having these vulnerable and influential moments, really having that power and that influence, but then translating that into belief and trust that isn't just having talked to you, I know that that this doesn't exist, that isn't just in your system. I would imagine that that influences how you approach your student-run clinic, how you how you mentor people, how you run your own business. Are these same philosophies exactly what you apply when you're dealing with staff, exactly what you're when you're dealing with partners? Amreesh  24:45Yeah, like, I'd say, I would be not truthful if I said, Oh, I do this all the time, right? These are things that I have learned over time, that I strive to do. So have I made plenty of mistakes along the way? With, you know, how I've dealt with team, staff, anything in over the years in my various businesses, absolutely. But I think then looking at that a bit differently is what's kind of brought me to understanding a different focus here, right? And approach.Tim  25:17Let me reword this question for you. Do you think that that same approach that you take, that you're trying to bring between the the the doctor, patient relationship, is transferable for a person that's in a leadership position in an organization? Can they approach things the same way? Amreesh  25:37Yeah, that's where I think, you know, like, that's a great question. Because I think that's what I've tried to take. And I don't know if I have the exact, firm solution, answer playbook for that kind of today, but what's made me reflect a lot on, like, my thinking around that, because, in one sense, as I said, where I got free in my world as a clinician, that then led me to kind of build this was when I took the risk off of me, and it was like, let me get look at the data, let me look at this and support it, empower the other individual, in this case, the patient, to make a decision. Well, so how do you look at that, I guess, from a business perspective, then that's really interesting question, because I think we look at data as leaders, definitely right. We look at the risks and benefits of of the decisions that we're going to make similarly to what, I'm you know, we do in OraQ. But probably one thing that I've had to learn and continue to learn, is the outcome of doing or not doing something, what that translates to is it a failure or success? Right? And I think that's something that I often reflect on more now. I don't know if that makes sense. Tim  26:55No, it does. We had a conversation a little bit earlier where we were listening to a video together of a basketball player that was faced with this exact question. We'll take another listen to that right now and then we can talk a little bit about how does keeping it real in your own leadership journey, not just making it real for your staff, but keeping it real for yourself. Free you up to deal with feelings of failure or whether or not we're dealing with imposter syndrome or anything else. Amreesh 27:27Yeah[Clip of Basketball Player Giannis Antetokounmpo]Reporter  27:29I just asked Bud the exact same question, but I'm curious for you, do you view this season as a failure? Giannis  27:34Oh, my God, okay, because I'm not that up. You asked me the same question last year, Eric. Okay. Do you get do you get the promotion every year on your job, no, right? So every year you work as a failure, yes or no? No. Every, every year you work, you work towards something, towards a goal, right, which is to get a promotion, to be able to take care of your family, to be able, I don't know, provide the house for them, or take care of your parents. You work towards a goal is not a failure. It's steps to success, you know. And if you've never, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to make it personal. So there's always steps to it, you know. Michael Jordan played 15 years, won six Championship, the other nine years was a failure? That's what you're telling me. Reporter  28:34I'm asking a question, yes or no? Giannis  28:37Okay, exactly. So why are you asking that question? It's a wrong question. There's no failure in sports. You know, there's good days, bad days, some days, some days, you are able to be successful. Some days you're not. Some days, it's your turn. Some days it's not your turn, and that's what sports about, you don't always win. Some other other people is going to win, and this year, somebody else going to win. Similar as that, going to come back next year. Try to be better, try to build good habits, try to play better, not have a 10 day stretch with playing bad basketball, you know. And hopefully we can win a championship. So 50 years from 1971 to 2021 that we didn't win a championship. It was 50 years of failures? No, it was not. It was steps to it, you know, and we were able to win one, hopefully we can win another one? You know, I sorry that I didn't want to make it personal because you asked me the same question last year, and last year I was in the in the right mind space to answer the question back, but I remember it. [End of clip]Tim  29:33So, when we listen to Giannis talk about failure, when we listen to him answer this reporter's question, what comes to mind for you?Amreesh  29:42The question you asked me before, plus the listening to this quote here, right? I think like to tie both together. I don't know if I can say, you know, have I figured out the entire approach that I've taken through my AI company, and how to apply that to leadership in a sense, right, and failure and success? What I have learned is moving from a—what was my bread and butter before, which was, you know, being a dentist and treating patients and running dental practice to going into a startup, right? How that shifted my perception and view around success and failure in a very different way. And so that resonates really well with this quote we just heard, because in a health world, you're very much primed to like, failure kind of isn't an option, right? Like you you can't do something and have it fail or try something out, and you don't think of it that way. Or everything you're trying to do is, is striving for that perfection to help your patient be right?Tim  30:39Do no harm.Amreesh  30:40Yeah, exactly right. Whereas in a startup world, so much of it is about like, testing assumptions, testing this, trying that, trying this, trying that, okay, you're going to win some. You're going to fail some. That is exactly, I think, what he said, and there's no failure in sport. Well, I think there's no failure in leadership, if we are reflecting on it appropriately. There's good leaders and bad leaders, but if we're those honest leaders that are constantly reflecting about what we're doing, why we're doing, you know, like all these things, that we're thoughtfully and genuinely trying to do what's best. Well, if that's the case, then there shouldn't be any failure in leadership too, because without having the ups and downs and things working and not working, how would we even be where we are today or able to do it right? Tim  31:24That's right. I mean, I remember years ago playing chess with my son, and he said, do you get angry that John beats you at that game? And I said, No, I don't. I don't get angry. I mean, any more than he was getting angry when I was beating him like chess is, you don't learn anything in chess by winning. You learn by making mistakes and then anticipating other people's mistakes. That's really the game. It's a game of mistakes in a way, and opportunities. But yeah, you cannot appreciate where you are today without accepting all the failures you would never be. It's a good thing. We can't affect the time, space continuum, or go back and I. And yeah, mistakes or we would get nowhere. Amreesh  32:06But it's hard. I'll admit it's been very hard, and still is hard for me to kind of shift that perspective in my own mind, because I want to succeed, and how I then define myself and what I'm doing and where I want to go about success, right, and then holding benchmarks or parameters, or what I'm defining that is like, where I think we start to put the pressure on ourselves and all these kinds of things, right? Whereas giving room for that is definitely something I've had to learn in this journey of like being in a technology startup world. I think there's people in a startup who are in that world or big founders that come out. Like, you know, right away. You know, you hear all these, you know, the Silicon Valley stories, and the founders in the basements of the garage is doing things, and they're just like, oh, it's all good. If this doesn't work, I'm on to the next one, right? That's just not how I was wired, right? Like, and so for me to think that way is like, whoa. Like, what do you mean? It's like, okay, if this doesn't work out, like, for me, it's like, no, there's no option. This has to work out. So that's a good thing. It drives but it also, you know, it has its, yeah,Tim  33:16Making it work out through perfection too early in the game is really troublesome, right? Because if you go for perfection and you keep and you could burn out like you could, you know, I remember in the 80s, late 80s, Toyota or Lexus had a what was it? The the relentless pursuit of perfection, I think was one of their taglines, right? Or passionate pursuit of perfection, or, or something along those lines. But it's like, yeah. I mean, that's the long term goal, is to make it as good as it can be, and to always know that there's always a step further that we can take. But the journey there is not without failure, not without error, right? So do I have you there? Am I on your wavelength? Amreesh  34:00Yeah.Tim  34:01When you think, then when you see this sort of manifesting for the people that are around us and whatnot, I see people that find themselves in periods of scarcity, when they forget that it this is a long game, when they forget that it's okay to experiment and have small, controlled failures, and sometimes even big, gnarly failures, that pursuit of perfection, that insistence on perfection, seems to be really emptying a lot of people's gas tanks. Could you be where you are right now, at this point in life, if you held on to that belief that every move had to be perfect, every move had to be stellar,Amreesh  34:40I think for like, you know, high performing leaders who have that ambition and drive, they do hold themselves likely at that high standard, which is why they get to where they are and drive and create change and create companies or lead companies and things right? But what I'm learning is that if everything doesn't work exactly the way I thought it should work, or how I mapped out on a whiteboard and planned it out that that's not failure. Tim 35:11No. Amreesh 35:13Like that is like, just because something you didn't hit that goal, you didn't hit that milestone like, doesn't mean that that is failure. Like, you know, you have to do something about that. But I think, rather than getting into business, operational side of things, it's more about like, my perception of that, right? Like, because I would then perceive that as maybe a failure and not enough, right?Tim  35:31If you're climbing the mountain, it's important that you have solid footing, but if you're going to chastise yourself every time your foot slips, you're not going to get very far, right? Amreesh  35:41Yes, exactly.Tim 35:42As we wrap up here, I just want to play a quote that you had shared with me that's hanging on your wall. And so we're gonna just, we're gonna listen to that really quick, and then I would like you to tell us what that means to you.[Man in the Arena (Theodore Roosevelt) read by JFK]JFK 35:53Theodore Roosevelt once said, The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. Who at best, if he wins, knows the thrills of high achievement, and if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.Amreesh 36:35 Yeah, you know, this is something. There's a quote that I heard reading and listening to like Brene Brown some years ago. And it just really struck me, because it's something that I do read often, and I mean, it's right in front of me as I look here today, and it's, it's funny, because I got to remind myself of it, because it literally says, you know, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, right? And here I am talking about perception change around my failure. And I got the quote right in front of me. But it's like that, you know, I thought a lot about it all because, and for so long, because it, I think, has shaped that we are the ones taking the risk, taking the chances, making those decisions between those two rights, or whatever it is, or right and wrong. We are holding ourselves to such a like, Oh, my God, I have to be right, right? But we're not. Tim 37:26 At every step of the way. Amreesh  37:27Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, like we've are also the ones that have the privilege, the honor and taken the risk to make those decisions in the first place, so that in itself, you know, is daring greatly, that in itself is not failure, failing in that one moment or one decision doesn't define, I think, who we are, right and so and define the what success for us.Tim  37:53 And if we're creating that sense of freedom, that sense of space for employees or for customers, or for for my coaching clients, or for dental clients, where it's like, no, we're not going to lose you're not going to lose the wrong teeth. But you know, we can put things into a larger timeline. We can put things into bigger context, so that we can realize that these little decisions sometimes have more flexibility than we would would say otherwise, and we don't have to be right all the time if we're constantly congruent with what our long term aims are. That's a big source of capacity loss for a lot of people, when I see teams that are not, you know, free to fail or not free to to there's just too much risk, and even the smallest errors, perceived risk, particularly man, it tires people out. It makes teams go quiet. There's a whole bunch of awful things that happen internally and externally, if that's what we allow to to exist. Amreesh  39:02 Yes. Tim  39:03 Sorry, now you know what I think. All right, so Amrees, let's, let's talk a little bit about again as we're, as we're heading towards the end here, we heard Karen's question to you. First of all, thanks for this journey. You know, we come a long ways. I think it's, it was a very, very rich discussion. There's a lot of angles here. I think, you know, if you had one wish for the people that are listening today, what would you want them to take away from our conversation.Amreesh  39:29 That feeling of you're in a position of leadership, whatever role you're in, management, executive, whatever is doesn't really matter, like you're leading some form of a vision and some form of people in some organization right, to achieve a certain purpose, that it's like, you are enough, you've come this far, that the pressure that we hold upon ourselves to make every decision right, in every way, like we're going to be okay, I got to be more gentle on my own self. So that's where I think it's like, how can we we all take that that like, hey, reflect on where we are. We wouldn't be in this position today if we we didn't have a skill or or some form of influence that got us here. So we've got to trust in that too. Tim  40:13 You think about the eclectic group of people that we have visit this show. If you were to lob a question at one of them, what would it be?Amreesh  40:19You know, I like what you were saying about that relentless pursuit of perfection, and, you know, and we were talking earlier too, like, I think we talked about the rejection of perfection, right? So, what is it that you could do or change in how you reflect upon yourself as a leader, to reject perfection, change your perspective on failure and success that would help you be better at what you do today, and have that influence on the people and the purpose that you lead with?Tim  40:49  Cool so possibly even a reframing what's one failure that you think You could reframe as a, as not diabolical, not disastrous.Amreesh  41:00Yeah, and that, that, you know, reinforces who you are, or shapes how you want to lead differently, I guess.Tim  41:07  What do you got going on? What's one thing that you're excited about and you want people to know, know about?Amreesh  41:12 Obviously, living and breathing in the world of AI these days, and so, you know, that's something that excites me a lot. I mean, we're seeing the advent of AI in so many aspects of our world. Everybody's playing with chat GPT now, and that kind of thing, right? I think we are seeing that this is going to be a part of our future no matter what. But, you know, there's people who are scared about it, and there's people are embracing it, and there's got to be a happy medium in between, of course, in every way. So what excites me a lot right now is like, how we're incorporating that in the world of health, right? And, you know, I was at a conference last month called Health, one of the largest digital health conferences in North America, and got the pleasure of listening to the VP of health and life sciences from Nvidia, and she was talking about, you know, how the integration of these types of technologies, the large language models, and how they're interpreting and thinking slow to think, thinking fast and thinking slow to reasoning, and how this is going to support us with what we do. And something that, just like blew my mind, is this whole concept of a virtual Omniverse, as they called it. And what we talk about within our company and other health companies is the digital twin concept, like the power of if we use this data and things correctly and use this technology correctly, imagine that world where we can be answering those questions for the patient around I'm going to be providing you this treatment or therapy or medication or whatever, and I can simulate what's going to happen to you before I give it to you. That just blows my mind, because I'm just like, that would be so cool. In a dental world, we always get asked a question, Hey, Doc, you know, can I wait on that crown till my insurance turns over next year or something like that? And I'm we're always like, we don't know what's going to happen until that time. You could bite on something hard one day and it just cracks and breaks off, right? But what if I could give you more information around you know, one patient can wait three months, the other could wait a year, or one needs to do it right now, right? Like, and then the patient's like, holy, this is cool, right? And so I know that's happening a lot in the genomics and therapeutics world and on the medical side too. So pretty cool stuff. Absolutely no.Tim  43:21 I think it's great. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Cause to Smile. So how can people get involved in Cause to Smile?Amreesh  43:28  Our organization on the charitable side, we have some amazing individuals who volunteer on our board there that we're constantly working to do good beyond the walls of our clinics, and really about empowering dental community, larger community, patients, business, everybody, to come together, to be empowered, educated around what's happening around other grassroots organizations that we can give back to, right? And so you can visit causesmile.com. I'd say, hey, where could we have people involved today is we're actually looking for great people who are excited about giving, who want to be a part of our board. That's where we are today, because we're at a stage right now in our nonprofit that we want to continue to drive sustainability and impact long-term, and we need great people to be a part of that. So that's my one ask is, hey, if that excites you and you're interested, you know, visit causetosmile.com, reach out to me directly. Where would love people that are inspired by some way to get involved and give back to the the local Calgary community. Tim  44:27 Love it. And if people want to get in touch with you.Amreesh  44:31 Yes, absolutely. I can share my you know, LinkedIn, Instagram, email, everything you'll have all that. Please reach out to me directly. Love, always open to a conversation any way I can support, help in in any way.Tim  44:46  Amreesh, thank you so much for joining us. We'll have all of those links in the show notes. We've been all over the board, but I love it, and so thank you so much. This podcast has really been a reflection of just how rich you are as a person, and how vibrant talking to you is and knowing you, and it's it's really great to see. So, thank you very much.Amreesh  45:10 Thank you to Tim. I really appreciate you thinking of me in that way, and humbled by you know that, and I hope that this gives something useful to at least one of your listeners out there. So really appreciate this opportunity too. So thank you so much, Tim.Tim  45:83  Right on. Thank you so much. All right. Well, inspire, influence, educate. Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter, you can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. 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Imagine a world where leaders don't just direct but inspire—where every conversation sparks growth and trust. In this episode, Tim and Sehaam explore how modern leaders can use coaching skills to foster collaboration, innovation, and stronger team connections. Sehaam discusses the rise of younger leaders eager to embrace a different model of leadership—one that prioritizes understanding individual team members, building mutual trust, and supporting personal growth over command and control.She illustrates through examples and practical advice how a coach-leader mindset can reshape organizations by encouraging leaders to embrace listening, curiosity, and patience. This dynamic approach, she argues, not only inspires teams but also provides leaders with greater fulfillment and strategic focus.Sehaam also shares insights from her book, The Better Conversations Rulebook, which provides leaders with actionable questions and phrases for fostering more profound, more effective communication. Tim and Sehaam delve into the nuances of building coaching skills, the art of asking the right questions, and the powerful impact of trust-building on team morale and productivity.About Sehaam CyreneSehaam Cyrene is an Executive Leadership & Strategy Coach to CEOs and Executive/Senior Leadership Teams. She is the Founder of Coach/Lead Ltd. and creator of the CPD Certified online course Leaders Who Coach(tm). The Better Conversations Rulebook is based on some of the skills and competencies taught to leaders in organizations across many functions and industries.Sehaam's deep knowledge of what keeps leaders awake at night and passion for leaders to find joy in their work make this Rulebook an immensely easy-to-read and instantly applicable conversation resource that every leader should have at their fingertips.A seasoned business leader, entrepreneur and live speaker, Sehaam is on a mission to make coach-leadership a global standard.Resources discussed in this episode:GallupThe Better Conversations Rulebook — Questions & Phrases Practised Daily by Leaders Who Coach—Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Sehaam Cyrene | The Coach/Lead Coach: WebsiteLinkedIn: Sehaam CyreneYouTube: SehaamCyreneX: SehaamCyreneInstagram: @SehaamCyrene--Transcript:Sehaam 00:01What I love about this younger generation of leaders coming through is that they're really hungry for a collaborative style of leading. They're not accepting of what they've seen before. They know it can be better. They might not know what that better is, but they're really searching for it, and they're challenging organizations, and that is fertile ground for leaders having these coaching skills and modelling coach leadership because you are, you're modelling your team and your peers. Watch what other people are doing, and so it's just, how do you show up? That's what's exciting. Tim 00:34I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 43 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 01:08Well, Hey everybody, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us today. Thank you very much for taking the time to invest in yourself and broaden your horizons. And the person that's in front of me today and the person that you're listening to join me is a very dear friend, a colleague that we've been in each other's orbits since around 2016-2015. Sehaam is a leadership coach. She's an advisor. She's the founder of Coach Lead, which is a fantastic organization that's helping leaders and people that I'm very fond of on this side of the pond. But of course, Sehaam is in London, England. So, thank you very much for joining us today, Sehaam. It's so wonderful to spend a little more time with you. Sehaam 01:49I'm really excited to chat with you. Tim, it's been a while.  Tim 01:53Well, you and I are cut from the same cloth. We care about many of the same things. Some of my fondest professional activities have been co-writing articles with you. We've done series in the past. Some of the most meaningful pieces of writing that I've done have been in conjunction with you. And so, you know, I'm really excited to see what comes out of today as we record this conversation and and play with a few ideas.  Sehaam 02:21Definitely, I'm not sure we've got enough time, but we'll see what we can do in the next half hour or so, Tim. Tim 02:27There's always another time. There's never has to be just one, but before we keep going, though, what would you like people to know about you when they're envisioning who you are and what you do?  Sehaam 02:40Well, I'm super passionate about leaders using our coaching skills as coaches because we know how amazing that is for people, how it unlocks people and gets people unstuck. So my passion, all my work, is devoted to teaching leaders how to use coaching skills, and that might be learning to use a question. land a question, land a phrase, how to show up in a conversation all the way through to actually, really digging in and learning at depth the skills and techniques of coach leadership and the nuance within that. Because you're not a pure coach, you're a leader who uses coaching skills, so happy to share more about that a little later. So, I do that through my one-to-ones. I work with senior leadership teams. I have a program that I built during lockdown called Leaders Who Coach and I run cohorts and connected programs for organizations. Really about building that coaching culture, that coaching capability within teams and organizations. I love it. Tim 03:47And there's nothing more rewarding. I think of some of my longest-term clients, and it's funny how I have these, I like to say clients for life, the ones that it just never stops. I mean, I have coaches myself in various areas of work and life that I use and that continue to always offer me new perspective and ways to see myself and to get over some of the barriers that I think are insurmountable, but when they break it down, it's step by step, but It's wonderful to see your clients graduate into that, demonstrating the very skills that that we're helping them with, and really becoming that coach to others. Always found that such a gratifying experience. It doesn't stop. I mean, it's funny, in many cases, it makes them hungrier and hungrier to try new things, but that leader as coach, it's a term that you introduced me to, and it's something that's always stuck in my mind. And so, yeah, I'm happy that you're here and that people are going to get a chance to see this. On that note, we talk about the skills that a leader must develop in order to be an effective coach, and I know that is one thing we're going to be introducing a little bit later here. But before we do, our previous guests, Tim Bessinger and Renee Miller, were here, and when asked about our little tradition, about what question would you lob at the guest that is going to follow you? And here was the one they left for you. As we know, everyone finds themselves engaging in activities that are not always clearly helpful to who we want to be and where we want to go. And our conversation with Tim and Renee was really about amazing adventures and big choices that they had made. And Aaron, the previous guest, had said, you know, how do you take that one big thing off the shelf and dust it off and actually get it done?Tim Beissinger Clip 5:47If you have to do that, if you need to clear up room in your schedule, what is one thing that you're doing that you would or want to get out that you want to stop doing. We all have too many things to do and not enough time. So what would you cut? Tim 06:06And it doesn't have to be something like stop tying your shoes, as he said, it doesn't have to necessarily be that specific, but would be the one thing that you, as a coach to others, so that people know we're human, would choose to cut to create more capacity for yourself. Sehaam 06:23Cleaning the house. Tim and Renee. Cleaning the house, right? Household chores are important, and there can be some sort of meditative element counter to doing those chores. But I think if it's to stop one thing in my life, it would be to hand that over to somebody else. If I could afford it, I would have someone cook me meals. Because as much as I love. I do love cooking. I absolutely don't mind house cleaning, but to me, that would be a luxury to have that side of things taken care of. As a mum of 20 plus years, that would be quite liberating to just not have that responsibility. And then hopefully come back to, maybe not the house cleaning, but come back to, you know, enjoying cooking food, because I have the time to really kind of indulge. But, yeah, that's probably two things, right? But we'll stick with house cleaning. Tim 07:18I love how you phrase that because it's not just what are you going to cut, but what's the thing that it makes space for? And why is that, you know, a net positive on your day or or in your year, right? And I think that's such an important thing that we do the math and we say, you know, what is this really worth? And it's funny, in that afford conversation, yes, it's a luxury for somebody to clean your house. You know, often it's funny. I like building things, but sometimes I do things myself. I build a fence when I should be hiring somebody to do it. Or sometimes they're faster than I am, they're better than I am, they're cheaper than I am. Like, just go and build a fence. Like, economically. It makes no sense for me to stress–Sehaam 8:04False economy, right? Tim 8:05Yeah, false economy, 100%. Great answer. I'm gonna let you think about it. Towards the end of the show, I'm gonna ask you to lob one at our next guest. Okay, let's get into what we were talking about before we hit record here. You were sharing with me this idea that the new generation of leaders that are that are moving in, right? We have Gen Z and millennials coming in, and you and I have seen the rise of Gen Y, and we've seen now the tailing off of the boomers. Now, Gen X is slowly leaving the workforce, and we've done generational work, right? So we see this new generation of leaders with new pressures and new ideas and different experiences come into the workplace. You've got some fascinating insight into what this group is looking for. Can you share a little bit about that and kick us off? Sehaam 8:54Yeah, sure. So my observation is that it's nothing new, but leaders are getting younger, and I think there's a certain amount of a whole culture of startups and scale-ups that's really driven this and encouraged people at a younger age to start something or get involved early in a young organization, and inevitably, those leaders find themselves leading teams of people, having to make strategic decisions they've never encountered before. They're having to be aware of board meetings and governance and a whole bunch of things. How do you build a team? How do you scale? Very often, their own experience is either quite short or doesn't exist. They're absolutely doing it from the beginning for the first time. And also, I notice the number of direct reports that these people have is getting bigger, right? You know, it can very quickly mushroom from one or two people as your direct report to 10 or more, right? In a short space of time, because of the nature of the types of work that we're doing. Because most work is technology work, and so they come with a different expectation. They're very well educated about what good leadership is. This plethora of books, around all of that, I've added one myself to the piles of books. So they are educated, but they're not practiced. And I think this is where this sort of big gap is, and that's the bit that I'm excited by because I think they're challenging the norms and expectations of leadership. They're actually naming some stuff that I think in my generation certainly didn't question. You just joined the workforce; you didn't really ask questions. You did as you were told. Very much command and control. And I think these younger leaders, from young millennials through to Gen Z coming through, we have different desires, different ideas of what good looks like, a greater self-advocacy. It might not feel like that to them, but by comparison to our generation, definitely much better self-advocacy of this is, you know, this is what I expect. Why can't we have a culture like this? I'm expecting a leader or, you know, a manager who can grow me, so all of those make for a very exciting space. What comes next, right?  Tim 11:34For sure, it's funny that when I think back to early work with generation, we were working with Gen Y, and they were the first of the digital generations where we were, you know, just waiting for them to grow up enough where they would get it and they would stop caring about what they cared about. And that didn't happen. Instead, Gen X started to think like Gen Y, and now Gen and so I see this thing that even though I'm 50, I don't feel 50. I feel 26 in my head. And so myself and my clients, I see them struggling with many of the same things that for you, dear listener, just because we're talking about the younger generation if you're my age, my vintage, don't stop listening. We still care about these things, but we're approaching them from a position of change, changing over from what we knew, the command and control structures that we knew, they're being gestated in this, you know, they're bringing that language, often from their parents and often from media. They're entering the workforce or entering their leadership journey with these things being the reality, whereas we're catching up. And for us, it's often a change experience, but for them, it's a foundational thing. And so when you look at that, what are some of the keywords, what are some of the key topics that we have to be really aware of are at the forefront right now for all of us, and in particular, these new leaders.  Sehaam 12: 57I think there's a reality, isn't there, that work life, working in a team, looks a certain way, and there are expectations or an ideal of how a team should function, how your manager should manage you, how you as a manager should show up. Gosh, I so very often hear from managers that they really don't know what they're supposed to do in these growth meetings, so they end up reverting to them being very tactical. You know, how's your week going? What have you achieved? What are you working on next type meetings, rather than, what's your big aspiration? Where do you want to go and knowing how to get into it? Stay with it. Allow time for it to build from one conversation to the next. I often say to people, we ask too much of a single conversation, you can't cover everything, and you're not going to build trust in one conversation. You're not going to uncover someone's desires and aspirations, and passions in one conversation. So I think for all of us, it's just the realization that so much of our happiness at work hangs on the quality of our relationships, but the quality of our relationships depends on us being able to understand people, to be able to be in conversation with people, and actually know what's going on for that person, the stuff that they say, as well as the stuff they don't say and that maybe they conceal, and having the patience to and the skill to earn that permission to get to a deeper level with that individual in that conversation. Tim 14:37And even to handle that you know, Gallup put out some, and I quote these numbers quite often, but Gallup put out a study that said, you know, they figure that when we look at people's general makeup, about 10% of the population have the capacity to be what we would deem as modern leaders. And I think it's much lower than that. I think it's like 6% because I think a lot of that 10% never got the chance. Socio-economically, gender, race, just situation they were never afforded. The window never opened for them to be in that position professionally, but for the rest, the ability to get into that space, to have the capacity to care deeply about who a person is, and carry that with you as a leader, because you're now taking on their success on top of your own, which I think is the definition for me. You get yourself in the middle of them being as successful as they can. That requires a capacity to do that, and for some people, is exhausting. They cannot hold that with them. It's too burdensome. Doesn't make them bad people. You need to create those spaces. And I love when you say that, stick with it, have that conversation, and oh, boy, do we like to introduce tools and personality profiles that are some sort of substitution for getting to know people, versus doing the work and actually understanding who they are. And as you say, when you've got a team of one and two, it's important to do it, but maybe not overdo it. And when you have a team of 30, it's really hard to do it to any great extent. And so finding what your number is is really important too. Is it seven seems to be an off-quoted number? Is like seven is like a good quality number for direct reports. But can you build that capacity up, that vision of yourself, putting that on yourself, as your responsibility, as part of your not just about getting the tactical stuff done or focusing on that, because it's easy, but really being that glue that is a defining idea for leaders, isn't it? Sehaam 16:48I very often say to leaders, you have two responsibilities. One is to be strategic, so that thinking time, the networking, the getting to know your peers, the being out there, and whatever your function requires. And the second one is growing the capability of your people. And if you're doing the coding, if you're doing the admin, if you're doing all of these things, you are not fulfilling your responsibility in that role. You're missing out on the opportunity to grow. You're missing out on the opportunity to feel rewarded. Because, as you say, seeing other people's success is hugely rewarding, seeing someone grow and do that, and you're missing out on being at the strategic decision-making table. If you're sitting in meetings and haven't got anything to contribute, then you've got to think about why. So, to Tim and Rene's question, what would you clear out the way it's the doing, and really look at what is your calendar filled with, and should you be in those meetings? And how do you extricate yourself? Who do you need to build up? Who do you need to grow so that they can own that part of it, which indeed is part of their job description, right? So that frees you up to be strategic. So, if your weekly calendar isn't focused on those two things, you need a really good, hard look at it to see what you could be doing better.  Tim 18:16It's funny, because, as you see, especially when you see technical specialists, and we see this a lot in education, where we have people that are coming up, they're professors. I mean, they're academics, or they're scientists and engineers, or they are doctors and whatnot. They're coming up through being the key contributor, right? They're the expert. And then they move into leadership spheres, and their idea of what value they provide can still be so deeply rooted in being on the tools that it's very tough to give up that. And not only are you robbing yourself from being at those strategic meetings, but you could be robbing your reports of truly developing their own capabilities. And, you know, we talk about micromanagement. It's so funny, in many of my leadership meetings, micromanagement will come up as that thing that I need. I don't want to do, I don't want to be, and we treat it like it's this thing. Micromanagement, to me, is an indicator. It's a lack of trust. It's like, I don't trust it's going to be done as well as I could do it. Maybe you're not, and there's lots of reasons why it happens you haven't taken the time to learn, or you haven't let go. But there's a trust challenge, like let it go, let them manage it. Be less operational, less tactical. Get into the strategic. Give them room to make mistakes and figure out what you're going to do when it happens. But that micromanagement, to me, is always an indicator that there's a lack of trust, that there's a lack of relaxation and release, that this person can do the job, maybe not as well as me, but differently than me, you know. Sehaam 19:54And that's also a reflection of the leader's skills themselves. So one of the hardest things when I take leaders through leaders who coach, or a Leading Through Change program, and I'm teaching them coaching skills, and we do live practice on each other, and it's only when they're actually in that that they start to see, gosh, this is quite difficult. It's that tendency to want to give someone the answer to get to the solution as quickly as possible, right? And often, you know, yes, you're under pressure. And I would say in a crisis situation, absolutely, you need to be more directive, but you need to loop back with that person and then reconnect in some way. But generally speaking, because I'm the expert, because I have got all this knowledge and expertise and so on, I do know what the answer is, great. And there's a place for that towards the end of the conversation, that if you bring that in too soon, you are squashing that person's perhaps their interest. Maybe they actually walked into the room and had some ideas, but you never asked them. They didn't get a chance to share. You didn't get to have a chance where you could really challenge them to think bigger or to take an idea even further. You missed the opportunity to really understand how do they think? You know, what's their motivator? Where do they tend to get stuck? And how can you support them? So this desire, tell people you've got to sit on your hands and just, you know, use some other ways. And those ways can be as simple as a phrase like, Tell me more. What have you already thought about doing? What's causing you to feel stuck here? It's back to that. Allow time and stay with it for a little while to really, like, you know, find the evidence, go on an effort to kind of really explore and understand. How does this person think? What ideas do they have? Because that will mean that you can go on holiday, on vacation, and know that your team members have got everything covered, because you know how they think, then you know how they're going to resolve problems that come up. No one needs to ring you or message you or WhatsApp you or whatever you don't need that you can really have that time out so that desire to tell people what to do or to come up with a solution, give it to them, is actually to your words, denying them. It's robbing them of a chance to really express or explore or develop a stronger emotional attachment to the process, right or the outcome, because you know what, that's what's going to drive them us telling them what to do. It went, Yeah, okay, but you know that's not my context, and you didn't really understand it, and you didn't really ask me about it, so I'm just going to ignore you and go and do my own thing, and then we get those surprises, right? Well, things weren't done the way we wanted them. So. Tim 23:00If we put ourselves into the mind of that young leader who's maybe two, five years into this, and they're starting to extend trust, and then all of a sudden, it turns out that, oh, something wasn't going on. I mean, often, if you are that domineering type leader, if you come with all the answers, and you are the expert, you're intimidating, or they feel they have to surprise you. They feel they have to impress you because otherwise, they can't compete. And that's a real way to ostracize people, is to make them feel somehow less or that they can't be intellectual peers, or can't rise to the level of performance, it's unattainable, those surprises. And we talked a little bit about this off-air, so I think that's a great segue for us to take into this. Talk to me a little bit about the types of surprises that people suddenly have and how that plays on the mind of the leader, and how it could actually cause them to maybe regress and to become more than command and control or micromanaging leader if it's not properly addressed if people don't have the skill to deal with it. So tell me about those surprises. Sehaam 24:12Yeah, you hear it, don't you? You delegated something to somebody, and the work didn't come back to the quality, or it just didn't happen at all, or there was a key piece of information that you know you as a leader because as we go up through the layers, less and less information gets passed up, and because everyone is making a judgment and filtering that information based on what they think is most relevant. But if you don't have the trust, you are going to find that the surprises are where information is held back in a team that's trying to innovate, that's crucial that your team members are generous, and they can only be generous if there's a high level of trust, and there's a way of collaborating that really is very inviting. So people are going to hold that information back for lots and lots of reasons, right? So a good word is concealment, and concealment because it's not information that was omitted or forgotten, it's information that I'm not going to share with you because you might judge me. It might be politically, a really bad move for me to share something, and that might be about an event, an incident, a mistake, something that happened that actually, you don't want your boss to know about. Your team might mess up, someone might make a decision, someone in your team, if you've got a hierarchy, someone in your team might make a mistake, and you don't share that upwards because you're protecting a team member. You're protecting a decision that you made or the fact that you actually didn't have a conversation with your director report. And now this problem has surfaced again, and judgment might be in the form of I've had this incident a lot where someone they were trying to get their team member to produce a very simple document in PowerPoint, and they went through a couple of rounds of resetting a new deadline, and when they got to the bottom of it, that person didn't feel confident using PowerPoint, and it is so tiny, and for us, we can forget that maybe some people just don't have the confidence to use certain tools, and we assume that they've had the training, or they've used it somewhere else and they haven't, and that can create massive frustration, because if you're relying on it as a presentation to a regional team meeting, for example, and it doesn't show that looks poor on the team. So what are you going to do? You have a direct report who concealed the fact they don't know how to use PowerPoint, and you can't share that information at a regional team meeting because you're protecting that team member. But it's essential to some decision-making. It's essential to the intelligence that's being shared in the organization, right? And then there is active concealment. I don't want you to know this because it's not to my advantage that you know it. I'm going to keep it for myself. I want to be the person that is seen as holding that knowledge or having that influence. So we do it for lots of different reasons, and those are the kinds of surprises that we don't like. Those are the things that create friction in our day, right? Tim 27:33For sure, when we have people that aren't sharing, what impedes that willingness to expose oneself or to be open? That gotcha moment. Sehaam 27:45I think that we do a lot of self-judgment first of all, so if you are my manager and I come into the meeting, I may judge a certain piece of information as silly, not relevant, tiny, minor. But actually, it ends up being a massive blocker to us getting something done or starting a task, right? And you maybe gave me a task to do, but there's a sequence in there. I really have no idea, so I didn't know what to do about it. I sat on it and so on. I might have a personal challenge that means I am just not comfortable. My style might not be to share certain things that you're asking me to share. And so that's why having that ability to observe people, to read the situation, to ask questions rather than assume something about someone. Those skills are so important. Have always been important, but we've not been very good at them, but I think super important for younger generations of leaders because they want to have a very different way of being with people. And I think we've gotten a little bit waylaid by things like talking about being vulnerable at work or imposter syndrome. I feel they are distracting from what really we should be talking about, which is our ability to have conversations with people.  Tim 29:19You know, when we take the employee perspective, or at least the person that's reporting into the leader they're carrying with them, their identity of who they think they need to be. And I mean, one of the chronic things I see is that when people get their first salary job, or when they're showing up at a boardroom table, they have this idea that they got hired to be the person that was fire and forget it. Should know everything about everything and should not come with questions or fears or a need to learn and grow. And so if they're asked something they don't know, I hate that fake it till you make it. Just despise the term. But often, people will say nothing, or they will fear that vulnerability. And at the same time, we've got leaders that, as you say, they need to be fluent in their own style and the style of their people so that they can tell that. You know what, this person just doesn't open up in this way, we require a different approach and then make it safe, like imposter syndrome means that a person has to fake it. You know what? I mean? Like, I feel like I'm faking it. Well, when are you enough? When are you enough to just go in and say, this is where I'm at? And if the leader is leading in a way that they are growth-minded, as we say, and not scarce-minded, or transactionally minded, that this person is supposed to show up with all the answers, then we got room for that. Does the employee understand that that's the case? Is their experience consistent, that it's constantly reinforced, and then we can get to this period of openness? And I think that's what you answered, was, why are people worried? Why would they ever hold back? Well, because they're humans. Sehaam 31:02Absolutely, and I think we go into conversations assuming we have a right to have this conversation. So another thing that I teach is what I call trust, permission, dynamic. You might have worked with someone for a long time and think that you know them and you have a certain level of trust, but actually, for each conversation that you're in, you can't assume that you have the trust enough for the topics that you need to discuss, and so it's being mindful of what's the mood that you're both entering this conversation with. Has one of you come out of a tough conversation or a meeting and is feeling a bit flustered or is distracted and really just syncing with each other and establishing, you know, contracting how you're going to use this time together. What are you going to talk about? What are you going to resolve? But we too often assume and step into spaces, and because we're not inviting enough, we're not inviting of the other person, there just isn't that exploration, there isn't that sharing, there isn't that emotional connection between us to get into it. And so it's important that we do make time for these, and I know people are stretched, but honestly, there's a lot of meetings that we're in that we shouldn't be in, don't need to be in. And like I said earlier, we should be making time for that. And there is that expectation, right? Tim 32:27Yeah, you used the word false economy earlier, and I think that that's really, you know, that thought that we're saving time by skipping over the connection time, it's going to bite you. You're going to pay for it one way or another. That knowledge of, do we have the right to do things? I mean, even when you and I talked most recently here, I know that I have time blindness. I don't view the passage of time and something I've had to learn about myself. And when you and I talk, it could be years between conversations, and for me, it's like yesterday. I have to be very careful that I'm not assuming trust for somebody that has felt the passage of time, you know. So I have to sort of start where we're at. And as you were speaking, it brought up something really interesting for me, a leader, because they're out there doing the strategic stuff, because they're out there talking to the CEO, or they're out there, you know, in the public, and then maybe they gave a press conference, or they're talking in front of the whole team there, there's going to be a lot of questions. They're very visible, and there's a lot of questions from the report saying, What does this mean for me? And you may need to have time to have them answer those questions, whereas the challenge for the leader is that person may have been working tactically, operationally, and we don't know exactly what they're doing and what they're dealing with. And so where our work is highly visible and we need to explain it, yet their work is somewhat invisible or hard to see, and we need to have them explain it. We're coming from two very, very different positions, where they're making a lot of assumptions based on what we're doing, and we're making a lot of assumptions based on what we did when we did the work, or what we think the job should be, and holy moly, what a powder keg that can create if we don't deal with it. Sehaam 34:11Right? And there's definitely a power imbalance, right? Just by virtue of us being their boss, can skew, so if we are setting the agenda and we tell them how to do stuff, or we say, this is what we're going to talk about. Okay, you're the boss. I'm going to go with that, rather than actually bring something up that might actually be an idea about how the team functions, what we could do better, right? All of these things. So, yeah, you know. And a certain amount of ego and showing that we know stuff and so on, but we really have to let go of that and create that space for growth. I think you mentioned that earlier, for someone else to grow, because if you're not doing it, you're not fulfilling your role, right? And those nasty surprises and all that concealment will continue. We conceal things to protect ourselves, to make ourselves look better to others, to manage our reputation, and so on. And you've got to be aware that those things are happening, you know, within your team and through the whole range of malicious to innocent and just, you know, I'm not experienced at work. I didn't want to talk about it, because I think it has a lot of air time, but this idea of imposter syndrome, it's the feeling that you have that you don't know enough, right? And so what we don't teach people to do is to hatch a plan, come up with a strategy, think stuff through, reach out to people, right? Have a way that you respond to situations where you don't have all the information. And you know, on the flip side, it's that the thing that drives leaders to jump in with an answer or tell people what to do, is this value that we hold in society, that we should have the answers that leaders do need to know. And to your point earlier, right? I'm hired because I know how to do this stuff, 100%, 110%, so actually, yeah, that bit's great, and that's important, and that's why you're in the role, and you've certainly earned your stripes to be in that leadership role. But now things have changed, and now you have other people that you're growing and, you know, I mentioned earlier, the opportunity to share your knowledge comes towards the end, and you and I know that as course correcting, what have you, and stress testing somebody's ideas, so getting into those sorts of questions of, you know, how do you think it'll happen in this situation? What have we not thought of? And I can share my perspective or my experience of doing this. And it went, what do you think? Do you think that has merit for here in this situation that you're dealing with? Is there something that would be valuable there? That's where we can come in with our knowledge, that's where we can do that course correcting and teach that person to think more deeply, to think several steps ahead, because that's what we want. We want our team members to be able to respond to things, to adapt, to foresee and anticipate, and even just know how to conduct themselves when the unexpected happens.  Tim 37:16And to have a good relationship with that. Not knowing, you know, it's an oldie, but a goodie. You don't know. Add the word yet. You don't know yet, and be able to have those yet discussions with your staff and say, No, you don't have the answer yet. How are you going to get there? Tell me what you think you need to do. And then, as you say, come in at the end. And you've given us this great model, or at least this visualization of, you know, for the leader, understand that they have pressures of their own, and we need to understand what those are, and the concealment is a natural thing, and it's going to happen. And as leaders, we can work with this positively by making sure that we're giving them the opportunity to recognize that in themselves and coaching them through it, and then being supportive and moving a lot of our initiative to the end, saying, all right now we can review how they did, and maybe they've taught us a thing or two so that we don't have to be caving to our own pressure to be the expert, or to get it done quickly, or to be the rightest person in the room, right?  Sehaam 38:26What I do hear a great deal from leaders who graduated from Leaders Who Coaches, and even through the program, they talk a lot because I make them go and practice these skills, right? So sit on your hands, ask these questions, listen, and so on. And they come back, and they go, Wow, they came up with something I never would have thought of. I really didn't know that that was going on, or I didn't know they had that position or those thoughts. They actually came up with something better. And once leaders start to build up their own evidence for those skills working. It's really easy to keep doing them. You know, you get a much richer conversation and an outcome when you do sit on your hands and stop telling people what to do. Tim 39:12I think we've covered a lot of ground today. As you've said, I think that's a great segue knowing what graduates of your program look like to let's take a moment here, and we're going to get you to the question you're going to ask the next person. But before we do, let's talk about, what are you excited about. You've got this course that's available. Tell us a little bit more. What else are you excited about? Sehaam 39:31I'm excited about us moving into truly what I believe to be the next wave, if you like, or the next era of leadership. And you and I talked earlier, there's command and control that everyone knows and hates, and then we've got servant leadership, which doesn't always get a good rap. We also have had a decade or two of coaches being around and people, more and more people, know what it's like to be coached, and certainly know that coaches exist, right? So, for me, the next obvious sort of move is that leaders have these coaching skills, and that's what excites me because what I love about this younger generation of leaders coming through is that they're really hungry for that. They're hungry for a collaborative style of leading. They're not accepting of what they've seen before. They know it can be better. They might not know what that better is, but they're really searching for it, and they're challenging organizations, you know, with talking about culture and so on, and that is prime fertile ground for, you know, more and more leaders having these coaching skills and being coach leaders or modelling coach leadership through the organization or with their team, because you are you're modelling your team and your peers. Watch what other people are doing because they're looking for answers, too. Nobody has all the answers. Nobody knows everything that they're doing. Everyone has doubts. And so it's just, how do you show up? That's what's exciting. Tim 41:12If people are going to engage with these thoughts of yours, where can they find you? What can they pick up? Sehaam 41:18Folks can go to my website, which is coachlead.co, you can find me on LinkedIn. So my handle is Sehaam, S, E, H, double, A, M, and you'll find me on YouTube as well. Sehaam Cyrene. Tim 41:33And you mentioned you injected a book into the mix, into the universe. Tell us about that. Sehaam 41:38It's called The Better Conversations Rulebook: Questions and Phrases Practiced Daily by Leaders Who Coach. It's a sequence of essays, if you like, with a total of 88 questions and phrases and explainers for why you might use them in different situations and what's their purpose. So it's a very practical guide to different scenarios that we're facing, and many of them are the sort of the most popular ones that Leaders Who Coach use. So yeah. Tim 42:09Okay, let's get to the question. So you were kind enough to feel the question the pop fly that Tim had sent for you. What would be your question to the next person in line? Sehaam 42:21Okay, so my question is, Who or what anchors you when you're having a tough time, and if they feel comfortable sharing how, that will be wonderful. Tim 42:34So the who or the what would be that would be a memory or a pivotal moment or a pivotal person.  Sehaam 42:41It could be a person, it could be a writer, it could be an actor, depending on what your profession is, right? Might be someone in your industry, might be a family member, someone living, or they might be a historical someone who's just influenced you so much that you kind of go back to again and again. Tim 43:00Okay, great. So I will lob that question at the next person there, and for all of you, it's a great question for our listeners to ponder. Right. Sehaam, as always. It's been a fantastic conversation. I really appreciate your smiling face and your wonderful ways. It's just such a joy to spend time with you. Sehaam 43:18Thank you, likewise, Tim, I do. I do. Enjoy our chats.  Tim 43:23Okay, let's not take it too long before the next one. Tim 43:28Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us. You think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet encouraging you to keep on leading you.

OPEN HEAVENSMATALA LE LAGI MO LE ASO LUA 29 OKETOPA 2024(tusia e Pastor EA Adeboye) Manatu Autu: Tagata popole po'o le tagata tau (Worrier or warrior) Tauloto -Tusi Paia– Mataio 6:34 “O lenei, ‘aua tou te popole i le aso a taeao. Auā e popole le aso a taeao i ana lava mea. E tatau i le aso lona lava leaga”  Faitauga – Tusi Paia – Mataio 6:25-34I le olaga nei e iai tagata popole, e iai ma tagata tau e ala i tatalo; e tatau ona e filifili po'o le fea o ia tagata e iai oe. Fai mai le Mataio 6:27, e leai ma se kupita e fa'aopoopoina ia te oe i le atuatuvale. E leai ma se mea e tasi e te maua i lou popole, matua leai ma se mea. Peita'i i le ‘avea o oe ma se tagata tau e tatalo, a tutupu mai ni faafitauli, e te faatama'ia i le nofoaga o tatalo, aua e te manumalo, e manumalo a'ia'i. (Roma 8:37) O nisi tagata ua matua atugalu i mea e o'o mai a taeao. Ae lei ofi atu i totonu o le Iunivesite, e popole ina nei te'i ua le taliaina. A maea ona faau'u, e popole I te'I ua le maua se galuega. A maua se galuega, e popole nei te'i ua faate'a mai le galuega. Afai e tumau i le galuega, e popole ne'i lē siitia i se tulaga sili atu. A maua foi se siitaga i se tulaga maualuga, e popole i tagata e ono faoa tulaga. E popole nei le fia faaipoipo seisi ia te ia. Ae a o'o mai se tagata e fia faaipoipo atu ia te ia, a ua popole pe o le tagata tonu lea e tatau ona faaipoipo iai. A o'o ina faaipoipo, e popole po'o ua sa'o lana filifiliga ae pe ono maua se la fanau pe leai. E latou te popole i taimi uma mo le lumanai. O le mea moni, o ia atugaluga uma e leai ma se mea e fo'ia ai se faafitauli. Afai e te faitauina le Filipi 4:6-7 e te silasila ai i mea e tatau ona e faia, nai lo le popole. O lo'o faapea mai e tatau ona e faafetai i le Atua mo mea uma, e ala i le tatalo ma le fa'atoga.  6‘Aua ne‘i popole ‘outou i se mea e tasi a ‘ia fa‘ailoa atu o ‘outou mana‘o i mea uma lava i le Atua, i le tatalo, ma le fa‘atoga, ‘atoa ma le fa‘afetai. 7O le manuia fo‘i mai le Atua, o lo‘o silisili lava i mea uma e manatu i ai, e leoleoina ai o ‘outou loto ‘atoa ma o ‘outou mafaufau ‘iā Keriso Iesu (Filipi 4:6-7). Aua le faafetai i le Atua na o taimi o lo'o saogalemu ma manuia i tulaga o e iai, a ia faafetai i le Atua i mea uma i le tatalo ma le faatoga, ona e faailoa lea i le Atua ou mana'oga. Aua e te nofonofo ma le popole; alu i le Atua i le tatalo, ia e faafetai ia te ia i mea uma ua ia faia mo oe, ma e fa'ailoa atu ia te ia ou mana'oga. O lona filemu e suia so'o se mea o popole ai lou loto. O lea, tatalo i le Atua ae tu'u lou popole ona ia fa'afetauia lea o oe i mea uma o lo'o e mana'omia. Afai ua e taliaina Iesu Keriso e avea ma ou Alii ma Faaola, ma ua lafoa'i atu ia te ia lou ola, taofi nei loa lou popole. Ua maea ona foai atu e Iesu lona filemu e sili atu nai lo le malamalama e pei ona tatou iloa i le Ioane 14:27‘Ou te tu‘uina atu ‘iā te ‘outou le manuia; o lo‘u manuia ‘ou te avatu ai ‘iā te ‘outou; ‘ou te lē avatu ‘iā te ‘outou fa‘apei ‘ona avatu e le lalolagi. ‘Aua le atuatuvale o ‘outou loto, ‘aua fo‘i tou te matata‘u. ' Avea oe o se tagata tau e tatalo ae le o se tagata e popole ma atuatuvale, i le suafa o Iesu, Amene.

In this episode, outdoor adventurers Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller, known as the “Thruhikers,” dive into their transformative journey from academia to the trail. They share stories of how they re-prioritized their lives to pursue hiking, including Renee's incredible achievement of completing the Oregon section of the Pacific Crest Trail in a record 14 days and Tim's memorable solo hike around the Tahoe Rim Trail. Along the way, they reflect on the mental and physical challenges of such feats, the unexpected influence they've had on others, and how hiking opened new doors in both their personal and professional lives. Tim and Renee emphasize that making room for big goals sometimes means stepping away from traditional career paths and taking the leap into the unknown. They also talk about the concept of "the trail provides," explaining how nature often teaches lessons of resourcefulness, teamwork, and resilience. They encourage listeners to follow their own paths, embrace unconventional choices, and make time for passions that may not fit the mould of societal expectations. With practical tips on overcoming challenges and advice for those seeking balance between their goals and careers, they offer an inspiring call to action for anyone feeling stuck in a routine. Listeners can follow their journey on social media and dive deeper into their insights with their new book, *A Guide to Life on the Trail*.About Tim Beissinger and Renee MillerRenee Miller and Tim Beissinger, @thruhikers, love going on outdoor adventures by foot, bike, canoe, or any other non-motorized transport. In 2021, they thruhiked the Continental Divide Trail: 3,000 miles from Mexico to Canada. They have also thruhiked the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada and hiked approximately 1,000 miles around Germany. They have backpacked all over the USA, bike toured in Europe and South America, and have both completed an Ironman. They love to cook and eat. They live in Mountain View, California.And then a more recent update is that Renee recently achieved an impressive feat by completing a thru-hike of the Pacific Crest Trail across Oregon in just 14 days and 14 hours—shattering the previous record by 1.5 days, all while contending with record-breaking temperatures!Resources discussed in this episode:Thruhikers: A Guide to Life on the Trail--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Tim Beissinger and Renee Miller | Thruhikers: Website: Thruhikers.coInstagram: @ThruhikersYouTube: ThruhikersEmail: contact@thruhikers.coTikTok: @ThruhikersLinkedin: TimBeissinger--Transcript:Tim Beissinger: 00:01It's compelling to want to mimic the path that's worked for others, but everybody's individual, and it can be more powerful to follow the path that makes sense for yourself. That's one thing that that I think can be a fear for folks when they're thinking, what do they do next? And they want to do the right thing instead of wanting to do what makes the most sense for them. Renee Miller: 00:20If you want to take a break from your job and hike for six months, if that's right for you and that's what you want to do, just do it, and the trail will provide. Life will provide and you'll be a better person and learn a lot and have a great story to tell because of it. Tim Sweet 00:35I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. I'm Tim Sweet, and I'd like to welcome you to Episode 42 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Well, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership today. We're going to explore exploration. We're going to talk to two explorers about the journeys that they're taking and the journeys that all of us are able to take, what's open to us. And sometimes, you know, we may have these things at our fingertips, and we don't actually realize that we can pick them up and enjoy them. And I'm really happy to welcome Renee Miller and Tim Beissinger. They're a dynamic couple that are known on social media as the Thruhikers, and when I think of people that are just gripping and ripping it, that are just living life to the fullest, I can't help but have your faces come into my mind. So thank you so much Tim and Renee for joining me here today. Tim Beissinger 01:52Thank you. It's great to be here.  Renee Miller 01:54Yea, Thank you.  Tim Sweet 01:56For those of you that don't know Tim and Renee and we're going to give you ways that you can follow them, because it's exciting. They have conquered some of the most challenging wilderness trails in the world, from the Pacific Crest Trail to the Continental Divide Trail, and most recently, Renee, you smashed the record for the Oregon section of the PCT the Pacific Coast Trail in just 14 days and 14 hours. So congratulations for that. Not to be outdone, Tim then answered with his own solo event around the Tahoe Rim Trail. So, you know, it's so much fun to watch you guys do this.  Tim Beissinger 02:31Just to interrupt for a second, I was outdone. I just walked in a circle around a lake at a normal amount of time. Renee set a record. So I was outdone. No question there. Tim Sweet 02:41And when we talk about Renee that accomplishment, I mean that was, as you said, unsupported. And I was watching one of your posts the other day. You were sharing these stats, which I thought were just amazing. You had started with, was it a 38 pound pack, and it ended up being 12 pounds at the end of it, and you were pulling in these major hours, like, well over or what was it? 180 hours walked, and, you know, pulling in these major distances. So talk to us just a little bit about that. What's the size of something like that for you. Renee Miller 03:12Yeah. I mean, it was probably one of the hardest things I've done, both physically and mentally. A lot of fun though, at the same time. Tim Sweet 03:19Yeah, I found you when you were originally setting out on the transcontinental. And I remember that first episode where you were filtering water out of a cattle trough, and it was gross. And I was like, oh, man, these are my type of people. And I can imagine when we look at how many people have followed you since then, 2.1 million on TikTok, 364,000 on Instagram, 868,000 on YouTube. You are a major part of people's weeks. They take a moment to live vicariously through you and be inspired by you. And so much of it is just again, it's like this different relationship with the world in front of us. Does it feel strange to have that reputation and that meaning in people's lives? Tim Beissinger 04:10Yeah, it does, really. It all started because we like to be outdoors, exploring, and our first thruhike was the Pacific Crest Trail. That's 2650 miles. We didn't make videos, we didn't document it. We just loved it, so we wanted to do it again. And we were playing around with videos, and people started watching, and that's been exciting, but also it is… it is strange to know that we're influencing how people approach the outdoors and what folks goals are out there, and we sort of ended up with the voice of authority that we've never quite set out to have, but hopefully we're doing an okay job of it. Tim Sweet 04:49What's it like for you, Renee, when you bring this into your regular life, into your day job, Renee Miller 04:54Tim is more of an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert. So you know, starting out, it was more of a challenge for me to put myself out there, but through Tim's encouragement and through the responses we got saying that we are inspiring people to get outside, to live healthier. It's been pretty rewarding. Tim Sweet 05:15That's awesome. We have a tradition here, where, before we get into the meat of our conversation, I bomb a random question at you from from our previous guest, and this one comes from Erin Ashbacher. So Erin's question was and she didn't know who I was going to be lobbying this at. At the time when you have those big things in life, those big projects, or those big goals, and they're sitting in some shelf getting dusty somewhere. For yourselves, how do you take those big, gnarly goals off the shelf, and actually, you know, starting on them. What's your process? That was her question. How do you handle big stuff, big goals? Tim Beissinger 05:56Yeah, so the way we've done it in the past is we make room for them, and I'll give an example. But if the big goal is big enough that it needs to push something else out of the way, we push it out of the way. The example is our first through hike of the Pacific Crest Trail. Renee really wanted to do that trail, and I was a new a professor. Renee was an engineer, and we felt like, I felt like there wasn't room to tackle that big project, that big goal of doing the PCT, it was something to put off until we retired. And Renee was persistent and said, No, we're only going to get slower and weaker and like now's the right time to do a hike like this. So why would we wait until we're struggling with health when we're retiring, instead of doing it now when we're 30? And so we quit our jobs. We made room, we took that off the shelf, we put some other stuff on the shelves, which were these jobs that were going quite well, and we tackled the PCT. And I think for me, that was a really hard leap of faith to say, wow, I've got my career going just the way I want it, but it's not going to be the priority right now, but we can figure that out later. And it worked, you know, we did that hike, we came back. We both sort of didn't even hit a speed bump in our career trajectories. And so it was a big learning that we could make room to take something off the shelf and do it without it slowing us down. Tim Sweet 07:29And if you'd cave to that fear, that idea that it would derail your careers, it would have been a risk that you were mitigating. That wasn't actually a risk. And by the way, you said hike. But how many days was that, quote, unquote, hike?  Renee Miller 07:46Four and a half months. Tim Sweet 07:48Yeah. There you go. Tim Beissinger 07:49Yeah. So for that one, we quit our jobs entirely. And you know, my PhD advisor found out that I quit my job as a professor and told me, this was career suicide. What are you doing? He was wrong. It was not career suicide. After the trail, I got a better job as a better professor at a better university, and so it was fine to do that, and we would have missed the opportunity. And like you say, it wasn't a risk, and Renee had the same sort of job situation, Renee Miller 08:18Yeah, yep, I was able to get a job after our you know, a job is a job, and a career is long term. And we've both had successful, very successful careers, even though we've had to quit a job here or there. Tim Sweet 08:34Yea, I mean, Tim was saying that, and that you were the driving force behind that. So before it was clear to Tim, or before you went in on faith, Tim, what was that vision that just made it a must do. That was the path of least resistance for you.  Renee Miller 08:54Yeah, I think it was wanting to tackle something unknown. You know, I don't like to follow the normal path of that society tells me to follow. That's kind of always been a trait that I've had, and I think it was a big adventure, a big unknown adventure. And, you know, I loved the outdoors, and thought, Why? Why not? Tim Sweet 09:19If I was to ask you, in your mind at that point, if you can, if you can, cast back to that, what was the risk of not doing it? Had you not done it, what would have likely happened that would be the source of regret, or, like, where do you think you would have been if you had not done it? Renee Miller 09:37I don't know where. Yeah, that is a good question. It has definitely changed our lives. And so, yeah, I mean maybe still just living a normal life, yeah. Tim Sweet 09:47So it'd be stuck in the mundane, that average existence, yeah. And we talk about, you know, what's average for everybody? May not, you know, help us be who we truly need to be in the moment. So you've done these amazing things. Tell me a little bit about what some of the most memorable times on the trail have been for you, as you've gone out and tackled these various challenges put in front of yourself. Tim Beissinger 10:12Oh gosh. I mean, the dangerous times are always memorable. Those are embarrassing too, because there have been a few times we've gotten ourselves into into trouble. We've never been injured out there, but, but we've come close. So, you know, one time, we were trying to cross the Olympic Peninsula, and there was a lot of snow, and we were walking for miles on a really steep slope on the side of snow and ice, and I slipped and fell, and a tree caught me and I partially dislocated my shoulder. It does that. It's a skateboarding accident from when I was young. So, so anyway, it was okay, but I smashed into this tree, and Renee was watching, for all she knew, I was dead, and my shoulder was kind of dislocated, so for all I knew, I was terribly injured, and turned out we were fine. But that's memorable, because it's embarrassing. We shouldn't have done that. We ended up turning around and going back and finding a different route, much safer route, around those mountains. Had the snow not been there, it would have been great. But that's one thing that stands out for me, for sure. Renee Miller 11:21And I think another thing is just the people you meet, you think you're going into a wilderness experience, but you always bump into other people out there hiking, and there's a lot of cool, interesting people out hiking or in the trails along the way that you never would have had the experience to interact with had you not done a trip like this. Tim Beissinger 11:44Anybody who's spending four months on a long hike is likely to have an interesting background that got them there. And so we've had some really great conversations and met some really good friends out there on the trail.  Tim Sweet 11:57I remember you did a post that was, tell who's the thruhiker by what tent they use. And I remember watching that and being like, I got it mostly right, but I was thinking, you know, somebody has a tent that has a generator and blows up or something. It's like, you know, cool. So, at this point, we find that this is a big part of your life. You are having new opportunities and new aspects of your ability to impact and influence people open up. So you've done these amazing things. You've set goals for yourself, you've made big life changes in order to make them possible, and you've made that space for them, as you talked about you're both professionals, and you're influencing and leading other people. What would be a more commonplace example of where you see a person's inability to make space for something get in their way.  Tim Beissinger 12:55I think jobs as people are picking their career path, it's really tempting to want to do the right thing. So I was an academic for a long time before I've now switched over to industry, but in the academic world, it's really set. If you want to be a professor, first you do a PhD, then you do a postdoc, then you might do another postdoc, then, if you're lucky, you get a job as the professor. And it doesn't have to go that way. You could go from PhD to a company, to a postdoc to a professor, or PhD to a, you know, whatever, to straight to a postdoc, and then switch over to industry and build some chops there and come back and professor or or maybe be a professor for a little bit and decide to switch over. I think people have a fear of getting off of that PhD postdoc Professor path, because all of the examples they look to are doing exactly that, and it's compelling to want to mimic the path that's worked for others, but everybody's individual, and it can be more powerful to follow the path that makes sense for yourself. That's one thing that that I think can be a fear for folks when they're thinking, what do they do next? And they want to do the right thing instead of wanting to do what makes the most sense for them.  Tim Sweet 14:11Renee, how would you add on to that? Renee Miller 14:13You get so caught up into your daily lives and the tasks that you you know, you go to work and have to get all these tasks done and come home and have responsibilities at home, but yeah, you kind of forget about yourself. And you know what about that professional engineering license that would be really good for my career? Oh, I don't have time for that, because I'm busy working and, yeah, just talking with people and reminding them to prioritize themselves and their resumes, and it'll probably be good for their company as well to get those certifications. Yeah.  Tim Beissinger 14:52I've witnessed that from Renee. She, as a young engineer, was always making time for a professional society that really had no bearing on your day to day job, but it was so big for networking and meeting folks. Renee Miller 15:09And staying current on your industry. Yeah, yeah. Tim Sweet 15:13So many of the people that listen are engineers or stem folks. You know, it's a huge part of my practice, working with engineers and geologists and, you know, scientists, chemists, etc, often when I help them move through things, not to make this about me, but we can lean on their engineering jobs, you know, because you can design and engineer the life you want, and the outcome is always, or usually, a product of, well, what's the design? And I use this video, if you may have seen it. It's probably 15, maybe 20 years old now, but a group from MIT had designed a bike with square wheels that could roll as long as the road was a series of ARCs right, the same distance as a side. Now, it wasn't a terribly flexible system, right? But often people, they try to mould themselves to the road, rather than molding the road to themselves. It's such an inefficient way to live, in a sense, because then you end up shaving off the corners, shaving off those sharp bits that make you special and that make you particularly effective, in order to conform, and we have to often realize that we have the ability to change those things. We have things we can leverage and choices we can make. Sorry, to dive into my stuff, but,Tim Beissinger 16:44No, yeah, it's a great way to put it. Tim Sweet 16:40Yeah. So the next thing that I would ask you is, when a person tells you they can't do something, what might be a typical response that you would use to open them up to the possibilities that could be in front of them? Tim Beissinger 16:52Oh, gosh. I've got a lot of experience training graduate students. So that's a typical encounter, is I don't know how to do this, or tell me how to do this. I can't do it. I have a very practical answer. This isn't quite philosophical, but it's just practical. What I always tell them is, you know how to use Google, and the answers are out there. You can figure it out. And I think that attitude of being resourceful and figuring things out is huge. I'm going to get personal. I hope that's okay. When I was a child, my dad had brain cancer, and I had four siblings, so there were five of us total. My mom spent a lot of time taking care of my dad. It was a great upbringing, but it meant I didn't get quite as much attention as I might have if I was an only child and had two fully functional parents. That taught me how to be a little more resourceful. It meant if I wanted to solve a problem, I couldn't just ask my parents to do it. I might do it myself. Or if I wanted to get validation at a school sports outing, it didn't necessarily come from the traditional my parents sitting there on the audience with a tape recorder filming every single event. And that was a good thing that really instilled this attitude of independence and resourcefulness, and I think it's helped me be the person I am today. So, that is what I try to teach my graduate students. Is Google it, ask people questions about how to do things, try and fail. We do a lot of coding in my field. So like, you can write code if it doesn't work, erase it, write it again, and keep doing that 100 times.  Tim Sweet 18:29What is that again? So everybody is… quantitative geneticist. Is that right?  Tim Beissinger 18:32Yeah, that's what I am, a quantitative geneticist. Yeah. There you go. So, so that's my my standard advice when people feel like they can't do something, is they can. They might just have to learn the base.  Tim Sweet 18:43So if confidence isn't in your DNA, you would say confidence isn't in your DNA yet.Tim Beissinger 18:48I'd say, Google it.  Tim Sweet 18:49We're going to code it in there and Google it. There you go. So Renee, would you have any experiences when you have people that come to you feeling stuck or feeling like they can't?  Renee Miller 19:03In addition to what Tim said, I think teamwork is a huge thing, and don't feel like you're stuck by yourself trying to figure it out. Get help and talk with the people around you. And more brains are better than one at solving problems 100% Tim Sweet 19:22I'm going to call an audible here and talk a little bit about one of your episodes that I really liked when you were doing the Tahoe Rim Trail, you shared that you were having some issues with feet problems and that you were breaking your own rules. I heard you say Renee usually kept you on the straight and narrow when you were hiking together, and so the two of you formed that kind of partnership where you know you're thinking about different things, and that teamwork was felt literally by you on that trip. Like here's something that I may not think about in the moment, but Renee keeps me honest. Tim Beissinger 20:10Yeah, yeah, I don't think I used that phrase the straight and narrow. I did something, but I didn't say that. Tim Sweet 20:06No, you didn't say it that way. Sorry. I am paraphrasing, but Tim Beissinger 20:08But really close just keeps me on the straight and narrows, but, but no, that's absolutely true. When we're hiking together, we know, here I'm talking in the “we.” Because together, we know that doing too many miles too soon is a recipe for injury, and honestly, it's not so much of a we it's really Renee reminding us that over and over again. And so there I was doing a solo hike. We almost always hiked together, but I did the Tahoe Rim Trail alone, without the wisdom of Renee, and I injured myself right away. It was four days in, and I had a busted Shin, and had to take five days off, and so that was a reminder that we're we're better together than alone. I probably offer some stuff to our joint partnership, also when we're out on a hike. Renee Miller 21:00Yes, definitely.Tim Beissinger 21:01The wisdom part is definitely coming from Renee. Tim Sweet 21:04Well, let's hit the other side, then Renee. What does Tim offer?  Renee Miller 21:06Well, he's a good cook, so I definitely eat better when he's around. Tim Beissinger 21:15So you keep you keep it nourished, and keep the color in your cheeks, in a sense. Renee Miller 21:19Yep, yep. But yeah, I think we're really good as a team, and he definitely likes to push us. You know, sometimes I come up with these crazy ideas, but Tim helps make sure we follow through with these crazy ideas and so it's a really a cool team that we have together, and it's good to do it on our own, and work on all sides of ourselves as well. And remember what our strengths and weaknesses.  Tim Sweet 21:49I think that comes through in so many of your posts. So I think that that's a great thing that people can expect to take away if they were to follow you, as we sort of wrap up here. I guess what I would say is this is we talk about all of these things, and I can't do your accomplishments and the amount of effort you put into these things justice. I can't in this amount of time, I really would encourage people to look out for you and follow you. But when you think to the people that are listening here, and many of them are are engaged with us, because we bring such unique people like yourselves onto it, what's that point that you want them to leave with today. What is that wish that you have for them? Tim Beissinger 22:34I think, it's a phrase. The phrase is the trail provides, and that's a lesson that you learn on a long hike, which is when you really need something, you get it from the trail. There's direct examples we have of of needing a cell phone cable that we forgot to bring, and that exact cell phone cable was just lying on the road. But the more important ones are the indirect examples, like when that I mentioned earlier, I fell down the mountain and hit a tree while the trail provided an alternate route around that mountain. It was there. There was a mapped bike path that we were able to walk instead. It wasn't what we had been aiming for, but it was provided by the trail. Or there's been times that we're running low on water, and a water source that we hadn't expected based on our maps showed up and it was in excess. There's tons of examples like that, and then they come back to life. And in normal life, when you're opening your mind to not just following one direct, clear path, but letting your life provide opportunities, you can follow those opportunities and have a lot of fun with them. An example from our life is our videos that we make. We never planned on being large internet influencers. We just happened to post some videos that got a lot of views, and then we ran with it, and it's been a really fun, really fulfilling project that we do. Life provides, the trail provides, I think that's a really important lesson that I've learned, and hopefully others can learn it too. Tim Sweet 24:09Yeah, just open yourself up to all of those doors that are in front of you and be observant. Okay, great. Renee. Renee Miller 24:16Just expanding on that. Don't be afraid to follow your own path if you know you don't have to follow what society tells you if you want to, you know, take a break from your job and hike for six months. If that's right for you, and that's what you want to do, just do it, and the trail will provide, life will provide and you'll be a better person and learn a lot and have a great story to tell because of it.  Tim Sweet 24:46It's really interesting when you think about that, when we follow the path that might be traditional or laid out in front of us, whether that is the career arc of a professor or whether that is putting your job on hold to try something adventurous, the standard path that's in front of us is not there by accident. But part of that is it's not built on individual experiences. It's built on sort of the common experience. And if we know anything about looking at the averages of groups, it tends to trend towards the lowest common denominator. It tends to trend towards the path that's been the safest for the most amount of people, which means for half the population, that could actually be curtailing your potential. Gallup recently came out with a figure that said 10% of the population actually have the makeup, personality, skills, work style, expression of genius, all of these things to be leaders. And I think it's actually a heck of a lot lower than that, because there's many people that aren't given the opportunity to lead. Could be socioeconomic, it could be gender, it could be any myriad of other things, race or whatnot, that kept them out of that. So it's somewhere between 4% and 6% I would say typically, is what, where you get these natural died in the wool leaders, and I define that by it's people that are willing to take risks, especially when it comes to owning other people's results, and would potentially damage themselves, but never do it anyway else, because that's how they're built. I think for those people, your words are going to ring like a clarion call in the wilderness. All right, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. We're going to do just a couple of little wrap up exercises. The first is, I would like you to ponder on a question that you'd like to ask the next guest in line, and I will bring that up at the beginning of the interview. Tim Beissinger 26:54 Well, I do have a question. We talked at the beginning about how to take things off the shelf, and my advice was, make room for them, take them off and push something else out. And so my question for the next guest is, if you have to do that, if you need to clear up room in your schedule, what is one thing that you're doing that you would or want to get out that you want to stop doing. We all have too many things to do and not enough time. So what would you cut? And it doesn't have to be like, Oh, I'd stop tying my shoes. It doesn't have to be that specific, but maybe just some idea about what you'd get rid of, if you could get rid of anything without consequences. Tim Sweet 27:42Yeah, do you know where your easy cut is? Well, I've enjoyed following you for the last it's got to be two years. It feels like easily, because it was covid when you started, right?  Tim Beissinger 27:53Yeah, if you were watching us filter from cow troughs, it's been three years, three years. Tim Sweet 27:57Oh my gosh, time flies. I think people are going to be really interested in your in your story, and you've got so much to teach in such a wonderful way. Where can people find you? Where would you like them to look for you? Tim Beissinger 28:09For folks who are wanting to get outdoors more, we have a brand new book out through hikers, A Guide to Life on the trail, and our goal with that book was to make trips more enjoyable. So we took everything we've learned from 10,000 plus we haven't added it up in a while, but maybe 12 or 13,000 miles of exploring the outdoors, all of our learnings to have the most enjoyable trips that we can have, and put them in a book, along with a bunch of backpacking recipes for dehydrated food. So so that's one great place for people to look for us. Renee Miller 28:41Otherwise, we're at through hikers on Tiktok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, awesome. Tim Sweet 28:48We're going to put all of that information in the shownotes. As people engage with you. What type of energy are you really excited to bring to your channel next? Renee Miller 28:58We love being outdoors, and all of our stuff is about hiking and the outdoors, and it's positive educational content about how to be safe and enjoy yourself in the outdoors and food and cooking. Tim Sweet 29:14And food and cooking right on. So, I want to say a big thank you for making this happen. I know that it was a bit of a route to get here, but you're not opposed to that. You guys set long routes all the time. So yeah, Tim Beissinger 29:26Thank you for having us. It's been really a lot of fun to talk about all this stuff. It's not the usual podcast, or not the usual podcast for us at least. Which is all about what's the most dangerous animal you've seen, which those are good too. But this was a fun exploration of other topics.  Tim Sweet 29:44It's podcasts like yours that helps people lead more enriched lives and inspires people by showing them look what's possible. And why not, you know? And it's just a matter of going to Google, in a sense, figuring it out, watching shows like yours, to get some tips, and then just, you know, getting on the trail. And I really appreciate that coming from you guys. You know for myself, getting back into hiking, it's a real source of energy and inspiration. So thank you. Tim Beissinger 30:17Thank you. Renee Miller 30:18Thank you. Tim Sweet 30:21Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If, like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership, please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders, and you can spread the word, too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening, and be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

John 1:19–34I. John Identifies Himself – 19-28II. John Identifies Jesus – 29-34

We have a growing library of creator spotlight episodes on the AIPT Comics podcast. Check out the episodes below to get to know these creators in a new way!Creator Spotlight: Kevin Smith ‘All of this is act two'Creator Spotlight: Christian Ward on Batman: City of Madness and moreCreator Spotlight: Chip Zdarsky on his career, Substack, & moreCreator Spotlight: Ram V ‘Knowing everything is overrated'You can stream the AIPT Comics podcast below or find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.Interview: Kelly Thompson - Powerpuff Girls art by Paulina Ganucheau (out July 2024), Scarlett with art by Marco Ferrari (out June 5th)Kelly it's such a pleasure to have you on the AIPT comics podcast for the second time! Congratulations on the Eisner nominations, what a year you've had. We've loved your work on Cull, Birds of Prey, and It's Jeff, and now you've set your sites on Powerpuff Girls! Can you tell us how long you've been working on the project, and how it came to be?Based on Paulina's work, I have to say she's an inspired pick for a series like this. Have you had a chance to check out any art yet?Powerpuff Girls has such an eclectic rogues gallery, any favorite villains in the bunch? Any favorite villains you thought were underutilized? Maskara?Last time you were on the podcast you mentioned you keep a notebook to jot down dialogue for characters, have you been adding to a Powerpuff Girl section and is there a specific character that you've grown to love writing the most?If your first story arc of Powerpuff Girls was a song, what would it be and why?Best Coast - I love it Icona Pop, Call me Maybe, Cruel SummerBy the time this airs, Scarlet is out, but we haven't had the pleasure of digging in yet, can you talk a little bit about how it fits within the Energon universe?If the Powerpuff Girls are made of “sugar, spice, and everything nice,” what is Scarlet made of?In press materials, you've mentioned Scarlett and Powerpuff as important to you when you were younger, what's left for you to tackle in the comics realm?Birds of Prey #12 reunites you with Sophie Campbell! What can we expect from this issue and how'd it feel getting the band back together?34I'm a huge Marvel Snap fanatic and I know you play…Kelly what deck are you running these days?What else do you have to plug today? The Cull and Black Cloak are both coming back, yes?Rapid Fire Question Round (Stolen from Stephen Colbert so that a guest is “known”):Best sandwich?What's one thing you own that you really should throw out?Apples or oranges?What is the scariest animal?Have you ever asked someone for their autograph?What do you think happens when we die?Favorite action movie?Favorite smell?Least favorite smell?Flat or sparkling?Most used app on your phone?If you could have dinner with any three characters you've written before, who would they be and why?You get one song to listen to for the rest of your life: what is it?What number am I thinking of?Describe the rest of your life in 5 words?

Endometriosis and Using Personal Experience for Work with Dr Kirsty HarrisWelcome to the Business of Psychology podcast. Today's episode is the final episode in our series about different ways of working. It's an unusual one for me, as Dr Kirsty Harris isn't here talking about her private work. In fact, she doesn't even have a private practice. But she has written a much needed book about endometriosis and how to support your mental health if you know or suspect that you have the condition. I'm really glad to be concluding this series with Kirsty's story as I found our conversation enlightening, but also troubling, as this is another example of a group that isn't receiving the support that they deserve from public services, and it's a really great example of how our work as mental health professionals can make a big difference, even when it's outside our official role.Full show notes and a transcript of this episode are available at The Business of PsychologyLinks for Kirsty:Instagram: @dr_k_harrisBook: Coping With Endometriosis: Bringing Compassion to Pain, Shame and Uncertainty by Dr Kirsty Harris Rosie on Instagram:@rosiegilderthorp@thepregnancypsychologistThe highlightsKirsty talks about her career as a clinical psychologist 01:46Kirsty tells us why she felt her book was needed and who it's for 10:21Kirsty explains why it takes so long to get diagnosis for endometriosis 13:54Kirsty talks about her decision to have a hysterectomy 21:58Kirsty discusses the challenges for people with endometriosis, particularly psychologically 30:34I ask Kirsty what about her experience was different or changed by her professional background 38:28Kirsty gives us her advice for anyone wanting to write about their own story 50:28If you'd like support with a more than therapy project, I take on a small number of one to one coaching clients each month, and I'd be absolutely delighted to help you. You can book a free discovery call with me here: https://psychologybusinessschool.com/1-to-1-coaching-for-mental-health-professionals/If you're getting set up in private practice and you want to make sure you build a business that makes the impact and the income that you want to achieve, then come on over and take a look at my Start and Grow group coaching program: https://psychologybusinessschool.com/psychology-business-school/Thank you so much for listening to the Business of Psychology podcast. I'd really appreciate it if you could take the time to subscribe, rate and review the show. It helps more mental health professionals just like you to find us, and it also means a lot to me personally when I read the reviews. Thank you in advance and we'll see you next week for another episode of practical strategy and inspiration to move your independent practice forward.

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________LentJesus said, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”Mark 8:34 ConfessionOfficiant: Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.People: Almighty and most merciful Father, we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep. We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts. We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done; and apart from your grace, there is no health in us. O Lord, have mercy upon us. Spare all those who confess their faults. Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord. And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen.Officiant: Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us all our sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen us in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep us in eternal life. Amen. The Lord's PrayerOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen. Invitatory & PsalmsOfficiant: O God, make speed to save us. People: O Lord, make haste to help us. Officiant & People: Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. LentThe Lord is full of compassion and mery: Come let us adore him.Venite Psalm 95:1-7Come, let us sing to the Lord; *let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, *and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, *and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. * Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice!The Lord is full of compassion and mery: Come let us adore him. Psalm 104Benedic, anima mea1Bless the Lord, O my soul; *O Lord my God, how excellent is your greatness!you are clothed with majesty and splendor.2You wrap yourself with light as with a cloak *and spread out the heavens like a curtain.3You lay the beams of your chambers in the waters above; *you make the clouds your chariot;you ride on the wings of the wind.4You make the winds your messengers *and flames of fire your servants.5You have set the earth upon its foundations, *so that it never shall move at any time.6You covered it with the Deep as with a mantle; *the waters stood higher than the mountains.7At your rebuke they fled; *at the voice of your thunder they hastened away.8They went up into the hills and down to the valleys beneath, *to the places you had appointed for them.9You set the limits that they should not pass; *they shall not again cover the earth.10You send the springs into the valleys; *they flow between the mountains.11All the beasts of the field drink their fill from them, *and the wild asses quench their thirst.12Beside them the birds of the air make their nests *and sing among the branches.13You water the mountains from your dwelling on high; *the earth is fully satisfied by the fruit of your works.14You make grass grow for flocks and herds *and plants to serve mankind;15That they may bring forth food from the earth, *and wine to gladden our hearts,16Oil to make a cheerful countenance, *and bread to strengthen the heart.17The trees of the Lord are full of sap, *the cedars of Lebanon which he planted,18In which the birds build their nests, *and in whose tops the stork makes his dwelling.19The high hills are a refuge for the mountain goats, *and the stony cliffs for the rock badgers.20You appointed the moon to mark the seasons, *and the sun knows the time of its setting.21You make darkness that it may be night, *in which all the beasts of the forest prowl.22The lions roar after their prey *and seek their food from God.23The sun rises, and they slip away *and lay themselves down in their dens.24Man goes forth to his work *and to his labor until the evening.25O Lord, how manifold are your works! *in wisdom you have made them all;the earth is full of your creatures.26Yonder is the great and wide seawith its living things too many to number, *creatures both small and great.27There move the ships,and there is that Leviathan, *which you have made for the sport of it.28All of them look to you *to give them their food in due season.29You give it to them; they gather it; *you open your hand, and they are filled with good things.30You hide your face, and they are terrified; *you take away their breath,and they die and return to their dust.31You send forth your Spirit, and they are created; *and so you renew the face of the earth.32May the glory of the Lord endure for ever; *may the Lord rejoice in all his works.33He looks at the earth and it trembles; *he touches the mountains and they smoke.34I will sing to the Lord as long as I live; *I will praise my God while I have my being.35May these words of mine please him; *I will rejoice in the Lord.36Let sinners be consumed out of the earth, *and the wicked be no more.37Bless the Lord, O my soul. *Hallelujah! Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The LessonsGenesis 49:33-50:26English Standard Version33 When Jacob finished commanding his sons, he drew up his feet into the bed and breathed his last and was gathered to his people.50 Then Joseph fell on his father's face and wept over him and kissed him. 2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father. So the physicians embalmed Israel. 3 Forty days were required for it, for that is how many are required for embalming. And the Egyptians wept for him seventy days.4 And when the days of weeping for him were past, Joseph spoke to the household of Pharaoh, saying, “If now I have found favor in your eyes, please speak in the ears of Pharaoh, saying, 5 ‘My father made me swear, saying, “I am about to die: in my tomb that I hewed out for myself in the land of Canaan, there shall you bury me.” Now therefore, let me please go up and bury my father. Then I will return.'” 6 And Pharaoh answered, “Go up, and bury your father, as he made you swear.” 7 So Joseph went up to bury his father. With him went up all the servants of Pharaoh, the elders of his household, and all the elders of the land of Egypt, 8 as well as all the household of Joseph, his brothers, and his father's household. Only their children, their flocks, and their herds were left in the land of Goshen. 9 And there went up with him both chariots and horsemen. It was a very great company. 10 When they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond the Jordan, they lamented there with a very great and grievous lamentation, and he made a mourning for his father seven days. 11 When the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, saw the mourning on the threshing floor of Atad, they said, “This is a grievous mourning by the Egyptians.” Therefore the place was named Abel-mizraim; it is beyond the Jordan. 12 Thus his sons did for him as he had commanded them, 13 for his sons carried him to the land of Canaan and buried him in the cave of the field at Machpelah, to the east of Mamre, which Abraham bought with the field from Ephron the Hittite to possess as a burying place. 14 After he had buried his father, Joseph returned to Egypt with his brothers and all who had gone up with him to bury his father.15 When Joseph's brothers saw that their father was dead, they said, “It may be that Joseph will hate us and pay us back for all the evil that we did to him.” 16 So they sent a message to Joseph, saying, “Your father gave this command before he died: 17 ‘Say to Joseph, “Please forgive the transgression of your brothers and their sin, because they did evil to you.”' And now, please forgive the transgression of the servants of the God of your father.” Joseph wept when they spoke to him. 18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.22 So Joseph remained in Egypt, he and his father's house. Joseph lived 110 years. 23 And Joseph saw Ephraim's children of the third generation. The children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were counted as Joseph's own. 24 And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am about to die, but God will visit you and bring you up out of this land to the land that he swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” 25 Then Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying, “God will surely visit you, and you shall carry up my bones from here.” 26 So Joseph died, being 110 years old. They embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. A Song of Penitence(Kyrie Pantokrator)O Lord and Ruler of the hosts of heaven, * God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,and of all their righteous offspring:You made the heavens and the earth, * with all their vast array.All things quake with fear at your presence; * they tremble because of your power.But your merciful promise is beyond all measure; * it surpasses all that our minds can fathom.O Lord, you are full of compassion, * long-suffering, and abounding in mercy.You hold back your hand; *you do not punish as we deserve.In your great goodness, Lord,you have promised forgiveness to sinners, * that they may repent of their sin and be saved.And now, O Lord, I bend the knee of my heart, * and make my appeal, sure of your gracious goodness.I have sinned, O Lord, I have sinned, * and I know my wickedness only too well.Therefore I make this prayer to you: * Forgive me, Lord, forgive me.Do not let me perish in my sin, * nor condemn me to the depths of the earth.For you, O Lord, are the God of those who repent, * and in me you will show forth your goodness.Unworthy as I am, you will save me, in accordance with your great mercy, * and I will praise you without ceasing all the days of my life.For all the powers of heaven sing your praises, * and yours is the glory to ages of ages. Amen. 1 Corinthians 14:13-25English Standard Version13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.20 Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. 21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.Officiant: The Word of the LordPeople: Thanks be to God. A Song of Praise(Benedictus es, Domine Song of the Three Young Men, 29-34)Glory to you, Lord God of our fathers; * you are worthy of praise; glory to you.Glory to you for the radiance of your holy Name; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you in the splendor of your temple; * on the throne of your majesty, glory to you.Glory to you, seated between the Cherubim; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever.Glory to you, beholding the depths; * in the high vault of heaven, glory to you.Glory to you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; * we will praise you and highly exalt you for ever. The CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersOfficiant: The Lord be with you.People: And also with you.Officiant: Let us pray The SuffragesShow us your mercy, O Lord;And grant us your salvation.Clothe your ministers with righteousness;Let your people sing with joy.Give peace, O Lord, in all the world;For only in you can we live in safety. Lord, keep this nation under your care;And guide us in the way of justice and truth. Let your way be known upon earth; Your saving health among all nations. Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgotten; Nor the hope of the poor be taken away. Create in us clean hearts, O God; And sustain us with your Holy Spirit.Take a moment at this time to reflect and pray for the needs of others. Fourth Sunday in LentGracious Father, whose blessed Son Jesus Christ came down from heaven to be the true bread which gives life to the world: Evermore give us this bread, that he may live in us, and we in him; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries; through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceLord God, almighty and everlasting Father, you have brought us in safety to this new day: Preserve us with your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin, nor be overcome by adversity; and in all we do, direct us to the fulfilling of your purpose; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.For MissionAlmighty and everlasting God, by whose Spirit the whole body of your faithful people is governed and sanctified: Receive our supplications and prayers which we offer before you for all members of your holy Church, that in their vocation and ministry they may truly and devoutly serve you; through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Amen. ThanksgivingsThe General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen.A Prayer of St. ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. ConclusionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen. 2 Corinthians 13:14

February 3, 2024 Today's Reading: Introit for Epiphany 5Daily Lectionary: Job 2:1-3:10; John 1:19-34I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me.Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death,lest my enemy say, “I have prevailed over him,” lest my foes rejoice because I am shaken.But I have trusted in your steadfast love; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation.Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit;as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen.I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me. (Psalm 13:3-5, antiphon Psalm 13:6)In the Name + of Jesus. Amen. In the midst of death, the Lord brings life. Just yesterday, we prayed with Simeon that we could die in peace because we have seen the Lord's Christ. Today, we pray with David that God would “light up my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.” This psalm resonates with the song of Simeon. A Christian's heart rejoices in God's salvation.  In the middle of all the struggles and trials that exist in the world around us, and even as our own flesh tries to lead us back into sin, the gift of God's salvation is what we need. He has provided this gift, and we have His steadfast love.  This is the hope of your life. Jesus Christ is your Savior. He has come, bringing your salvation. He is the One that you trust in. No matter how difficult the world's attacks against the Church are, no matter how wracked with guilt and shame you might be, the Lord has dealt bountifully with you. He has given you what you need, and that is the forgiveness of your sins and the promise of eternal life. He has lit up your eyes with His grace. In the Name + of Jesus. Amen.Lord, let at last Thine angels come, To Abr'ham's bosom bear me home, That I may die unfearing;  And in its narrow chamber keep  My body safe in peaceful sleep  Until Thy reappearing.  And then from death awaken me  That these mine eyes with joy may see, O Son of God, Thy glorious face,  My Savior and my fount of grace.  Lord Jesus Christ, my prayer attend, my prayer attend,  And I will praise Thee without end. (LSB 708:3)-Pastor Peter W. Ill is pastor at Trinity Lutheran Church, Millstadt, Illinois.Audio Reflections Speaker: Pastor Jonathan Lackey is the pastor at Grace Lutheran Church, Vine Grove, Ky.The Lutheran Reader's Bible helps you develop a habit of devotion and Bible reading so you can slowly but intentionally understand and grow in God's Word. Through introductions to the sixty-six books of the Bible, guided reading plans, and more, this Bible builds your confidence to study Scripture on your own.

00:05Welcome to the Imperfect Buddhist, where we discuss present moment awareness and incorporating Buddhist principles into modern life. My name is Matthew Hawk Mahoney, and today's episode is titled Buddhism and Warry.00:37I have a long history with Warri. I remember being on a road trip with my family during the summer. It must've been like five or six coming up with all of these Warri thoughts about if we had enough gas or how far it was gonna be to the next place that offered food. And my dad, who was great with nicknames, came up with a nickname for me. He called me the designated warrior. My family laughed about it,01:06Worried what he meant by that.01:10Through my early adolescence and teen years, I was prescribed anti-anxiety medication and I took that up until I was about 18 or 19. My early 20s, I came into contact with my worried thoughts again. And from my early 20s up until now, I've been practicing meditation as a way to find some grounding in the midst of worried thoughts.01:39I just got back from a week long work trip up in Cincinnati. We do this a couple times a year. There's a bunch of people in the office and new people that I'm meeting for my new position as a business development representative. During this work trip, I noticed that my anxiety or worry was turning up to a new level, getting home from socializing, I would think, oh no, did I make a bad impression? What if they didn't like me? What if they thought I was too quiet?02:08We all do it, some of us more than others. Maybe not everyone, but most people will have these what ifs and if we're not careful, they turn into habits of negative thinking.02:22Worry, like many other patterns of thinking, compounds on itself. So we may have a worried thought. In my instance, I'd have the worried thought, oh, did I make a bad impressions on my coworkers? Then I think maybe I was too quiet. And then if I go to try to fix it and act from that worry, I might say, oh, tomorrow I'm going to do a better job of shaking people's hands and looking them in the eyes and smiling at them as we talk. I'm going to do a better job of that. Oh, but then what if they sense that I'm being fake?02:52Oh man, this doesn't feel very mindful. I'm not being a very good Buddhist. In those moments we are completely in our heads and our bodies and it's hard to step outside of it because the what-ifs feel so real. I'll continue worrying if I don't decouple from the thought that worrying is keeping me safe. We don't worry for no reason and in some way there's some justification inside. Whether it's subconscious or conscious that03:20Boring will keep me safe. It'll keep me on the right path. It's gonna keep me going in the right direction or the direction that I desire.03:28We can slow down enough and step outside of the worried habits of thinking and negative desire. Desire that's based on external circumstances being a certain way. So as we slow down, we use techniques that are available to us to become more present, whether that be awareness of our breathing, awareness of the room we're in, the sounds in the room, whatever we can do to bring our attention back. As we slow down, we can start to03:57Find our own intentions and look at what our intentions are in life. How are we coming at life? Some of the good news about the mental energy of wari is that it's a pretty pronounced energy. It's not as subtle as some other things that we may work with in our meditative practices. Wari is pretty obvious, it's pretty flavorful, pretty strong. It's a good opportunity for us to tune in and become more aware, more present.04:25Warring may have kept us safe in the past. We may have had to worry or think ahead or plan our next move to survive. And there's nothing wrong with planning or thinking ahead. We can really look out for the energy or thought when we start to notice it saying what if. We know that it's usually unnecessary worry. The energy of fear and worry, also usually referenced as anxiety, is like a 10-headed04:53monster, ten-headed dragon, where you chop one off and then another ten can pop up elsewhere. I know that through personal practice where I might work through some area of fear that I'm having and feel good about that and then subconsciously a new worry starts to pop up and then takes me some time to realize what's going on and I say, oh yeah, this is the pattern, this is the energy of anxiety. And I start to see that this is the exact same thing but only presented as a new...05:22thought or image in my mind.05:33It may be hard for us to find an equilibrium in the midst of worry if our environment isn't really conducive to peace. And while we can be peaceful in any situation, when we are starting out and we're working with worry in our life, it's important to use set aside time and space to step away from the objects of our worry and to step away from people and distractions. We do this through regular practices.06:02In Zen Buddhism, they set aside time for a practice known as Zazen, or in more modern mindfulness practices, they set aside time for meditation. Setting aside time in your day for quiet reflection, for cultivating awareness through different awareness practices, allows us to slow down enough and tune into a knowing presence beyond thinking. Once we experience this knowing presence beyond thinking,06:30we gain access to a new dimension of being.06:35Once we experience being through our practice, it gives us something to hold against other experiences and ways of being in life. We recognize when we're worried and spinning worried thoughts in our minds, how groundless and unreal that state of being is compared to present moment being. In some traditions, they call it zero, coming back to zero, nothingness. And the object isn't to get rid of anything, we're simply07:04Watching what is and in the instance of worry What is is that our minds are racing usually off to the future or to the past? And asking what if what if my car breaks down on this trip down to visit my uncle? What if I made a bad impression with my girlfriend's family last weekend over Thanksgiving? What if I'm single for the rest of my life? What if I end up being a virgin for the rest of my life?07:34I know how tempting these what-if thoughts can be. As mentioned, some people are more prone to falling into the traps of what-if. Whether that be because of their wiring, being more prone to anxiety or anxious states of being or their past where they had to worry and think ahead to survive. I know that with my own worry, some of it comes from a sense of control or desire for a sense of control. I worry, hey.08:03I didn't do a good enough job of making sure everybody I came in contact with today liked me. Is that really up to me? Yes, I have influence. I can present myself in the best way I can, be kind, concerned, learn how to listen well, and maybe even, would you believe it, I actually developed some genuine care for the person I'm talking to. It's all fine. But do I really have control over how people perceive me? And...08:32What my worry is telling me is, what if every person you saw today didn't like you? Or what if this person didn't like you? It's asking, what if you don't have complete control of the world around you? News break, no one has control of everything. No one has control of most things. A lot of my worry comes from a desire to hold on to the status quo. I have a job that pays well and I'm moving into a position that's going to pay more.09:00I'm worried that I didn't make good impressions on some people that I'll be working with in this new position. The warrior says, okay, well, if he didn't do well there, they may not like you and man, you're gonna get fired. But it comes from a desire to hold on to what I have or a desire to keep things going in a certain way out of fear of loss. Buddhism talks about that a lot. Desirelessness is maksha liberation. That if we didn't...09:27desire anything other than what was, we would be perfectly content and at ease.09:42If you're looking for actionable steps when it comes to your own worry, here's some of the things that have worked for me. Cultivate awareness, whether that's through a daily meditation practice or through present moment awareness in your daily activities, whatever you're doing, trying to bring a sense of awareness to the moment. This leads to the ability to be aware of what's going on.10:11The options available to us become limited. But through meditation and mindfulness practices, we cultivate an awareness that allows us to witness our own state of being, state of mind, which then allows us to recognize when we're worrying. When you see the worry and you ask, what if? You see, oh, this is a what if thought. You can ask yourself, is there anything actionable that I can do in this moment that would be beneficial to avoid the circumstance or outcome that I don't want?10:41and see what you come up with. And then if there isn't, there's really nothing you can do that's actionable, then it's okay to just stay in that labeling, witnessing presence, labeling the thought as what if, recognizing the patterns of worry, metacognating on the thoughts that are floating by, and really just step back into your witnessing presence, watching things float by. As Pima Chodron says, I am the sky, everything else is the weather.11:11We come back to the truth that no matter what happens in our life, whether it be experiencing worry or the objects of our worry coming true. Everybody does hate me at my workplace. I'm fired because I just could not fit in. Come back to the reality of being that who we are, what we are made of, is not dependent on any external circumstance, positive or negative.11:37We are the being, the presence that witnesses and experiences life. You might say to yourself in those moments where it gets stressful and all the anxious thoughts come in and the worrying starts up. You can tell yourself, I am forever and always whole and complete. Nothing can change that.11:58We need to experience that state of being for ourselves, for it to really stick.12:20Thanks for stopping in and spending some time with me. And my wish for you is that you be peaceful, you be joyful, and you be free from suffering. I hope you have a wonderful week. And if you enjoyed this episode, I would appreciate your support through liking, subscribing, and sharing the podcast with your friends. I'd also love to hear from you in the comments section about your own practice and your thoughts on the podcast. I look forward to talking with you next time. All right, bye.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-imperfect-buddhist/donations

In this episode, Riccardo Cosentino is joined by Oxford classmate, Vicente Cunha, to discuss his MSc in Major Programme Management dissertation on early completion payment as a mechanism to incentivize collaboration in major programmes. The pair dive into the importance of trust and transparency in major programmes and our industry's struggle to implement either. Cunha explains why a shift in mindset and a touch of empathy could be a gamechanger for major programmes.Cunha is an accomplished Industrial Engineer and with over 15 years of experience in the oil and gas industry, primarily focused on delivering complex construction projects involving large oil and gas floating production units. He brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to his work, affording him a critical perspective on the integral factors behind the design, procurement and management of large construction contracts. He is particularly passionate about forging a strong alignment between in-house construction and operations teams and establishing productive and collaborative relationships with all project stakeholders, to achieve the best possible outcome. Key Takeaways: The six must-have, evidence-based contract specs that should be included on projects to improve results.Why early completion incentives do not necessarily lead to better outcomes.Red flag behaviours to avoid for effective contractor collaboration.Relational contracting vs traditional contracting and the importance of risk balance.The truth about where empathy and major programmes intersect. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn: Riccardo Cosentino's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/     If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community: Vicente Cunha's LinkedInRiccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino  00:05You're listening to navigate the major problems, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host Riccardo Cosentino a brings over 20 years of major program management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxbow universities they business group, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press the industry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us. We sent a Konya is an accomplished industrial engineer who has an impressive MSc in major program management from the prestigious University of Oxford. He is a seasoned professional with over 15 years of experience in oil and gas industry primarily focused on delivering complex construction projects involving large oil and gas floating production units V Center brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to his work, affording him a critical perspective on the integral factors. Beyond the design, procurement and management are large construction contracts is particularly passionate about forging a strong alignment between in house construction and operation teams, and establishing productive and collaborative relationship with all project stakeholders to achieve the best possible outcome. All right, and welcome to navigate the major programs, a new episode today with the center kuliah. Are you doing the center? Hi, Riccardo, Vicente Cunha01:47I'm doing great. And thanks for having me. It's a great honor to participate in Afghani measure program. Riccardo Cosentino  01:52It's my pleasure. And thank you for agreeing to meet with me today. Today we're going to talk about a very interesting topic that you are quite familiar with, which is early completion payments as a mechanism to incentivize collaboration in major programs. Can you tell us about this topic? And why are we exploring this topic today? Vicente Cunha02:12Yeah, I actually did a dissertation about that, in my master's degree in Oxford for in mega projects, the idea is to try to understand if you include one early delivery incentive in a contract, if that would make the performance of the contract to go any better than than what we actually see. And so the paper talks about long run and complex construction projects. It's not really not about like paving a few miles of an existing freeway over the next six months. Not that paving a freeway isn't hard worker cannot go wrong. But we're looking for projects with a higher degree of innovation, higher likelihood of stakeholders conflict, longer duration, expositions, uncertainty, and so on. So if you look at the traditional lump sum, fixed price, EPC contract and where contractors would compete for the lowest price to deliver a fixed scope, the dissertation starts from there. And the idea that if you have a higher degree of owner and contractor collaboration, it would have a better outcome for the project, we try to figure out that the incentive itself would booster that collaboration. The idea would be something like, let's say we have a conflict there. And I decide not to pursue what I think it's right. Because I'm looking for something else. In the end, that would be like the bonus for early delivery. That's the idea of the dissertation. Riccardo Cosentino  03:34Interesting. Maybe for the people following us for the first time, what's your background? What What inspired you to look at this particular topic, Vicente Cunha03:43I've been working in high complex, long run projects for for a while for like the last 15 years. So I work with shipbuilding, construction, oil and gas platforms. And what I found is that it's really hard to keep a project on track, my experience is about like a five year running project. And over time, we face so many difficulties that at some point, we are not talking about the target date anymore, and cost escalates and everything that's there in the literature. And it's very common in many projects. So I start thinking, what is wrong there? And how can we actually make sure that both owner and contractor are looking at the same picture and trying to do their best effort. And at some point, we had a great opportunity, stopping for a while before the project that I'm working now. And we put a group to study it and see what can we do better for for the next contract for the next project. And we came with some of the things we're going to talk about today. It's just all there in our new contract, and we are trying to figure out how to get better. And one of the thing is, is putting their incentive for early delivery. And then that's just the true question that came from my my work. Is it working or not? Is that the way to get a better outcome? I still don't have the answer in my actual works. It's just running out the incentive Is there and I can tell yet how the end of the story on my personal work is going to be. So I decided to jump ahead and try to figure out in the literature what to expect. Riccardo Cosentino  05:10Interesting. And so from your literature review, what were you able to find out in terms of Is there research already in place that talks about the benefits or disadvantages of alien completion bonuses? Vicente Cunha05:24So the answer is quite simple. It's a spoiler to the end of the dissertation here, it's not doing any good. Like what I did is I interview experienced professionals in large construction projects and different industries, different positions. And we talk about collaboration and many topics in collaboration. And I couldn't find any evidence that just included incentive would boost those practice. That's the idea of not saying that early incentive wouldn't help. That's not what it is about, it's about because there is a early incentive, would it make the other behaviors during the contract to work better, as I mentioned before, one of the parties being thinking about not pursuing some of their interests is because they're looking for something else in the end, and I couldn't find evidence that this would work. But I do find very interesting evidence and very interesting, I could confirm with the interviews, that there is a list of main contract prospects, and that you should include in your contracts, and there are some owner contractor desired behaviors, that if it's present there, the outcomes were going to be better. So I was looking for something and I find something else, that there's actually a list of things that you should be worried about, that you should do. And if you do those things, you probably will find better outcomes on a project, Riccardo Cosentino  06:42understand what you're saying to a certain degree. And maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. I think it's an interesting topic during the for your research, did you find out that maybe early completion, bonuses could be a positive thing for major programs, however, other mechanism, so you need to really be a package of incentives, a package of things that align behaviors, rather than just one thing that would solve major program delays and cost overruns? Vicente Cunha07:12Exactly. And I would add to that, it might not even be on the top of the list of the things you should have. It's definitely part of the package as opposed to but I would say there are a few other things that you should care more than just add the incentive. Riccardo Cosentino  07:25Okay, so maybe let's explore that, because I read your dissertation and you talk about things that you must have things that are very important and things that are less important in a particular contract. So from your research, what what are the things that must be included in any EPC contract or in any contract to increase the collaboration, and therefore, to increase the chances that a project will be completed on time and on budget, Vicente Cunha07:50the way that I that I frame it is there's a list of things that you should add to your contract. So we talk about things that you should research upfront, and try to include there. And then there is a list of behaviors that could work for for any given contract that you already have. Of course, if you have a contract where the previous list, let's say are there, it's going to be easy to perform those behaviors. So that list of the things that you should take care of in advance, it's quite small. So I got to six topics that I call them must have, and they are contractors, early engagement, they are clear goals and objectives alignment. And then I could say, adding a bonus could work for that topic, a fair risk balanced distribution, and select trustable and competent companies and have a strategy based on your your design, maturity, and put achievable schedule and fair price. So most of the time, you just ask for something that it's an attainable, so it's impossible to go from there. And then if you take care of those six things, and they're just six, but there is a lot of work to put those six things in place. So it's not that at all, it's just doing six things. No, there is a lot of work. There's a lot of work, I can tell because we tried to do that. And there's a lot of research that you have to do if your track of projects and historical data your companies have and try to put it in a fair balance there. And then you go to the behavior. So there are few as well. But then you should like for an owner's behavior, try to avoid like excessive penalties, avoid micromanaging in from a contractors behavior, you should try not to act opportunistically. Those are all things that in any given contract, as I said, you should be worried about and try to implement on a daily basis. Riccardo Cosentino  09:36So in your mind, what comes first, do you need to have a contract to incentivize behaviors? Or do you need to have the behaviors and the contract is just a guardrail, but in your mind to have a successful major program? What should be the right order? Vicente Cunha09:53It's hard to tell. I mean, if you don't have the basics in the contract, it's going to be very difficult to fix. sample for contracts are not to act opportunistically. So if you say to a contractor that you put a lot of requirements, you put like unattainable possible target date, and you keep pushing for him to deliver what you asked in the contract, and you keep asking, trying to give him penalties and everything that the contract allows you to do, it's really hard not to expect that he would act opportunistically, that he would avoid giving you all the information that you would use to to punish him. So in the other way, like if you have a fair contract, and then I'm putting fair here, just the expression of things that are, let's say, okay to be achieved, and you don't have any other mechanisms that I'm saying they're good for collaboration, you should be able to work without opportunistically you should be able to have a good relationship, because the contract is fair is reasonable. So even if it's not prepared for boosting collaboration, there, there shouldn't be a problem for both sides to act in a good way. Riccardo Cosentino  10:55Yeah, interesting. What I'm starting to find out is that many clients are now actually utilizing behavioral assessment tools when selecting contractor. So not only they want a contract a fair and it provides the right incentives and the right behaviors. Clients are actually starting to assess the collaborative behavior of the parties that they hire. And because, yes, the contract is important, and the guides, but ultimately, it people that deliver those contracts, and if the people don't have the right behaviors and attitudes, there's only so much that the contract can regulate. Vicente Cunha11:37Exactly, I like to do that parallel. Although I'm talking about complex and long run and very expensive projects, I like to do the parallel, if you're doing your job at your home, if you're hiring someone to fix or remodel your home, that's exactly how you would do you would hire someone that you trust that you know, you're gonna get well, and that's going to take the job to the hands, not exactly the lowest price, it's not exactly like the fastest one. It's just the one that because you you know, or because someone recommend you you would work with. But when you try to apply that to the industry to the organization's you normally would have a very difficult time on selecting preferred contractors. That's the main problem there, you are not allowed to work with your preferred partners. I even don't know in my industry, how would do some kind of assessment that you mentioned, and would hire someone based on that assessment? Because I would like to do that I prefer to work with that company than the other one. I mean, just because they have the right behavior just because they can work on a more collaborative way. They they can establish some kind of partnership they deliver. But I don't know how to do that. Riccardo Cosentino  12:43Yeah, so my experience is that they use this process called cognitive behavioral assessment. So whenever you have Alliance type contracts, where you are basically selecting somebody that to help you deliver the program, you as the older retain all of the risk, because in an alliance contracting and IPD type contract, the risk is with the owner, having a collaborative partner becomes paramount. So they now use cognitive behavioral assessment. And they going through behavioral assessment is done on the individuals not on the company. So individuals are actually trained and tested prior to selecting the organization that is going to deliver in the sim. I haven't been involved personally. But some colleagues that have taken part and yeah, it shifts completely the the attention of the people involved in the project. And it actually demonstrated that if you have worked in adversarial type contract or your career, it's really difficult to switch to a collaborative behavior. And so typically, the first step is to have to have individuals that have worked in collaborative environment before because they probably are more prone to be collaborative. Vicente Cunha13:56Yeah, exactly. So you mentioned the IPD, integrated project and the more collaborative way to work that, yeah, there's a lot of literature on the relation of contracts, I haven't experienced them. As I said, it's probably going to be shocking, and but I do believe that we should be moving to in terms of running our projects. But the idea is, how can we move there but still have like the traditional contracts? That's kind of what the dissertation is trying to do. So I take a lot of the ideas that the relational contracts have, and I try to implement them on a traditional contract because I don't see how we were going to move from the traditional because of like the lowest bids, the lowest price bid strategy that we are, I mean, many of the projects are supposed to adopt when they involve treasure money or when they have like a big organization that needs to follow that by law. So those concepts are the ones that I would pursue, and those are actually the ones that appear on my dissertation as the main concepts. Riccardo Cosentino  14:51It's interesting because I've been looking at EPC or we call it lump sum turnkey contracts quite a bit of a bit of a theory and I'd like to hear what you think, which is an EPC contract is really a zero sum game, where you have a winner and a loser. And because ultimately, if you're a contractor, you're given a fixed price, you have to deliver for that fixed price. The client has provided specification and they're going to enforce this specification. It's almost, if you're a contractor, you're not making money, you know, winning this zero sum game, how can you align a situation where you have a zero sum game with a collaborative approach? Do you think that's even possible? But what's more your findings in your research? Vicente Cunha15:35I think it's possible, but I still don't know how to do it. So they did that I always had in mind is let's talk like about risk balance, as an owner talking on an owner perspective here, I really care about the target date, the delivery date, but then when I go to a contract, because I'm so used to do the traditional, the adversarial, traditional contract, and I'm so used to always protect myself in the way I write the contract, I would say, Well, it's a fixed price. So any price escalation, it's your contractors fault. So you need to deal with that. And then what happens if like, I'm really looking for a target date, but when there is a price escalation, I say, that's your risk. And then what do we expect a contractor will do if by the time he needs to put that material order or that he needs to put that purchase order for for critical equipment? If there is a price escalation in that exactly time? So do we expect him to go ahead and assume that extra cost because he's looking for my interest in your on a target date? Or do we expect him to delay amount for two months to put that order and just assume that he's going to be able to work around it or in terms of scheduling and recover that later on. So the way I set my contract and giving him the way he should do, if I were his side, I would postpone my purchase order in one or two months. And as an owner, although I said, I'm really interested in the target date, and I have penalties for not following the target date. I mean, I won't be able to push him to put the PO on a high escalation price, because he knows the market will fluctuate and in, he'll have a better chance to put that later on. If we don't get to that. When I say I don't know, because I don't know how to get to my competence. Say, let's assume this collision risk here. Let's assume this escalation as long as the guy can prove me, the other side can prove me that by going into the higher price, he's saving time for the project. I don't have a way to do that nowadays. But I do believe it's possible. And that takes a lot of collaboration and a lot of partnerships. It's like, I wouldn't do that. If I don't trust the other sides, I might just have someone on the other side, just following like, forward me higher price PO notes, so I prove it. And that wouldn't be nice. So exactly. It takes trust, it takes like working with procured companies working with with people that to you can actually transparency and all those things. So they're not easy at all. But like from owners perspective, if I look at my organization and the experience that I could get during the interviews, nobody's willing to do that. You see, like, I care about the delivery time more than I care about the price escalation that might arise. But when I write the contract, I don't put it there. I keep like taking care of the money all the time. It's a strange, Riccardo Cosentino  18:09yeah, my experience of being on the contractor side is there is a lot of opportunity, and you touch upon your dissertation, a lot of opportunistic behaviors, we must be difficult for a client to understand when a contractor is truly asking for help. Or they just asking to be relieved of obligation that they've taken on? And now they don't know how to manage it? And that's where the trust comes in. But how do you build the trust to a point where you're not questioning the opportunistic behaviors all the time? Vicente Cunha18:43Yeah, the other question that I always ask myself and my colleagues and partners is there is kind of an idea that because you write something on a contract that you transfer the risk, or you transfer that to somebody else. So let's think about COVID. If we take any contracting like 10 years ago, nobody would say pandemic or COVID, or anything like that, because it wasn't there. But if you take any given contract nowadays, COVID is going to be there. And probably it's going to be written that contractor should take all the actions and should take the extra costs and everything to cover any new pandemics is going to rise. And of course, contracts. We won't do anything with that because like if we saw what happened into the pandemics, the cost is there the extra money that you need to put into to keep things moving, it was just an attainable it's it was possible to be taken. So I feel like from an owners perspective, just because you put it there, well COVID It's your problem. You think the problem is gone but if the problem comes you have doubled the problem because now you said it is there so you cannot work around it and find a solution because if you say it's there and the price covers that how can it not work around it but the problem is not going to go away because if happens contractor just come to you and say well, I know it's here but my press doesn't cover it. Do you expect me to put how much to cover it so that kind of mentality needs to change from both sides. I guess Riccardo Cosentino  19:59you If it's not easy, I mean, I think what you described is what I call risk damping, right? When you is no longer just transferring risk, you're literally trying to dump the risk to somebody else. But ultimately, clients are always responsible for the ultimate outcomes. Because the contractor at the end of the day will do what they can to defend themselves and to stay alive to stay in business. And ultimately, the price of delay will be borne by the client. I mean, you know, in your case, if you have, you know, you need to start drilling for oil. And if your platform is not ready, ultimately, your organization is going to suffer, Vicente Cunha20:36exactly. And then you have the lowest bidding price, which is always there in the beginning. So we talk about making contracts collaboratively. And we talk about throwing a lot of new ideas in a contract, but it's the lowest price is always there. I guess, if you're a contractor and you don't have like a portfolio at the moment, you were willing to go very low to get that next project. And then you put yourself in a position that well, it's would be great. Even if we have a track record, we have a trust for these specific projects, I'm sorry, I went too low on the beads, I won't be able to cover what I did the previous project, it was a different situation there. Riccardo Cosentino  21:14I guess the lowest price bidding process, really incentivize the opportunistic behaviors. So it's really difficult to reconcile that with collaboration, because ultimately, if you provide the lowest price, you probably cut some corners somewhere. And then you're always trying to recover from those early position that you've taken, making collaboration, quite difficult to be achieved, because you're always looking for opportunities, something that you might admire left on the table to begin with. I think we're coming to the end of the podcast, I think we've covered quite a few topics. So in summary, will be your conclusion from your research about collaboration and implementation of collaboration in major programs. Vicente Cunha21:57So as we said, I believe that's the path we should be following. So looking at IPD, looking at the concepts and behaviors that I found in my dissertation, I believe that that's where the solution to many of the problems that we that we see probably there, but there is a lot of difficult to implement it. So I would say first, if I have to give like an advice, I would say, we need to be questioning ourselves all the time. So most of the things that I'm that I'm saying here, they are not things that I manage to implement in my daily routine. It's just that I've been thinking about them all the time. And every time I came to a problem that I'm always asking that kind of question to my colleagues and my partners and say, What would you do? If you were on the other side? What do we expect the other side to do, if if we know that they can't bear this risk, they can't go that way, they're not going to lose money. So that's always keep questioning yourself on how the other part is expected to behave, what you can do up front, as we said, making a better contract. And also during the daily routine of contract relationship, what you can do to make sure that the two are trying to help and each other is aware of other side problems and other side difficult and also the problems are faces, it's very hard to solve, you better act before it, you better try to anticipate the problems and better say, Well, if you go in that way, it's not going to end well. So let's see what's making you go this way. What can I do from my side that we can fix it and and start going somewhere else from here because once we get there and things surface, it's really hard to solve. Riccardo Cosentino  23:34I think as an industry as a major program industry, I think we all have to start working towards more collaboration and put the effort into things that help building major programs rather than things that helps managing the contractual aspects of major programs because managing the contract doesn't get more things built. They just get more lawyers fees paid Vicente Cunha23:58exactly the way we we set our mindset. It's really about mindset like we've been working on that mindset for such a long time. First things we're talking here right now might just scare some of the lawyers that are listening to us. And some of our our colleagues say those guys are crazy. I would never let them deal with a project. But yeah, it's just about mindset and trying to just do small things and doing better on your next project and trying to get to more close to the relational idea, the litterature to call this really well. Riccardo Cosentino  24:31Yeah, I mean, he's not like the history major projects. This is full of successes. So I think different thinking is needed because clearly what we've been doing up to now exactly. Well, we say thank you very much for taking part in today's episode of navigating major programs is being a really interesting conversation. I hope maybe to have you again on the on the show in the future covering other topics. Vicente Cunha24:56Yeah, sure. They can always count on me and it's been a great pleasure in a very nice discussion. Thanks for having me again. See you. Riccardo Cosentino  25:03Thank you already sent it to you soon. Bye. That's it for this episode of navigating major problems. I hope you found today's conversation as informative and thought provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, where we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership risk management, and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to navigate the major programs and I look forward to keeping the conversation going Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Matt Wireman00:00:23 - 00:01:00Welcome to another episode of Off the Wire. This is Matt Wireman and I am so thankful to have with me Dr. Brian Arnold, who is currently serving as the president of Phoenix Seminary. And that is really fun to say. I met Brian while he and I were students at Southern Seminary together. And I believe we had an early church history class on Augustine together, if I'm not mistaken. And I had no idea that guys that I was going to school with were going to be president. So here you go. So I'm really thankful to have you, Brian, on this podcast. And I just wanted to thank you for your time.Brian Arnold00:01:01 - 00:01:03Well, it's great to be with you, Matt. Thanks for asking me on.Matt Wireman00:01:03 - 00:01:24Yeah, so you, we were chatting before we hit the record button and you've been at Phoenix Seminary for five years you say and then just recently have taken the post as present. Can you kind of walk us through what that transition has been like and what you find yourself busying yourself with as opposed to what you found yourself busying yourself with?Brian Arnold00:01:25 - 00:02:55Absolutely. So in 2014, actually, I got a call from a friend of mine, Dr. John Meade, who was also at Southern with us. He was doing his PhD in Old Testament and said, hey, are you looking for a job in academia? And I was pastoring at the time, and I'd love to tell more and more about that if you'd like. And he said, there's a position open to Phoenix. So I applied for it and got the position. We moved across the country in May of 2015, which is not the time to come to Phoenix to get the brunt of the brutal summers. See if you're really committed. That's why you went to Phoenix. Absolutely. And taught in church history and systematic theology for those first couple of years. What I recognized pretty quickly about myself is as much as I love scholarship and I enjoy writing and lecturing, I also noticed, one I've noticed this my entire adult life, even before, is a mentorship and a desire to help make things better. So some of my colleagues are exceptionally gifted scholars, but I always found myself drifting into more meetings and thinking through curricular issues and just noticing, especially at Phoenix Seminary, how much potential I saw here and wanted to maximize that as much as possible. And part of it was I never thought I'd actually get a job even teaching at a seminary. And I wanted to make sure the Phoenix Seminary had every chance it had in this kind of environment to be successful in the long haul. So that's what kind of led me to administration.Matt Wireman00:02:55 - 00:03:10Yeah, so your goal was not to be in higher education. It sounds like you were a pastor when you got that phone call from John. So like, what were you thinking? For one, why did you get the PhD if you knew you were going to be a pastor?Brian Arnold00:03:11 - 00:03:28So I almost had to go all the way back to college when I first got a taste for theology,late high school, early into college and started devouring just different books as I found them. I remember even I was a paramedic major in college and so I was in fire and EMS and.Matt Wireman00:03:28 - 00:03:30Eastern Kentucky, right? Is that where you were at?Brian Arnold00:03:30 - 00:05:43I like to say Harvard of the South, nobody else does. But I had a 500-hour internship program that I had to do over the course of a summer in the back of an ambulance and I was doing for a long time, 24 hours on, 24 hours off. And I wanted something substantive to read and my director for Campus Crusade said, why don't you read this book? It's a big fat systematic theology by a guy named Wayne Grudem. And so I went to Barnes and Noble, bought it. And I remember walking in the parking lot looking and seeing like, wow, Harvard and Westminster and Cambridge. And he teaches at this place called Phoenix Seminary and I've never heard of that before. But I read that that summer and fell in love with even academic theology as well as a couple of my roommates in college. And everyone I knew had gone to Southern Seminary. So that was a no-brainer. I was an hour and a half down the road and went to Southern. And really from my first day there, I remember a guy named Scott Davis was in admissionsat the time. And I said, you know, I'm going to go through the MDiv and get my PhD and I would love to teach someday. And he was like, easy there. He hears that from a lot of people. And he said, you haven't even started the MDiv yet. You don't know how hard that is. And also over that same kind of weekend, the New Student Orientation kind of things, Russ Moore, I was sitting next to him for lunch. And he said, you know, one of the founders of Southern Seminary said, if your greatest desire is not to go into the pastorate, then you probably shouldn't be teaching at a seminary. And I thought, you know, I do have a passion for the local church and I would love to pastor. So I kept those two ideas in my mind of what I kind of wanted to do. And then I was realistic. I knew how many guys go and get a PhD and never get a job in higher education. So I thought the chances of me actually teaching at a seminary are very slim, but I love the study of theology. And I knew that even doing that level of work would improve my communication skills, my ability to read better and to write clearly. And so I was really passionate about getting the PhD and either adjuncting somewhere while I was pastoring or writing or any kind of combination of those things. And there was a school near me where I was pastoring in western Kentucky that actually went out of business the day after I went there to talk to them about teaching, potentially.Matt Wireman00:05:43 - 00:05:46Where were you pastoring at in western Kentucky?Brian Arnold00:05:46 - 00:05:50So it was a little town called Smithland, Kentucky, just outside of Paducah.Matt Wireman00:05:50 - 00:05:51Okay, awesome.Brian Arnold00:05:51 - 00:05:54The school that was down there was called Mid-Continent University.Matt Wireman00:05:54 - 00:05:56Okay, okay. Very familiar with it. Yeah.Brian Arnold00:05:56 - 00:06:24They went out and I had been looking for higher ed jobs the whole time. And I told my wife, if I don't hear anything at this ETS, it was going to be ETS in 2014, I'm not going to pursue higher ed anymore. Well, that's when John Mead reached out and said, hey, are you interested? So I always wanted to go into higher ed. I just, in some ways it was hedging saying, I know that it's unrealistic that I'll actually get a position in higher ed.Matt Wireman00:06:24 - 00:06:27Just because it's such a saturation of PhDs, is that why?Brian Arnold00:06:27 - 00:06:52huge saturation of PhDs, less people are going to seminaries, there's a scaling down.There was just all the confluence of issues that make it that much harder to get into the market. I felt like we're happening. So, I'm a pastor, the Lord is really blessing our work there and it was exciting and I could have done that for an entire career and been really satisfied doing it.Matt Wireman00:06:52 - 00:07:12Mm-hmm. So what was it about Phoenix that you would make a move? I mean, because that's not just, you know, right down the street kind of seminary that like you alluded to.I mean, that's a substantial climate change, but also a substantial cultural change. And so what was it about Phoenix particularly that drew you to even apply?Brian Arnold00:07:13 - 00:07:45Yeah, if I'm just being frank, it was a job. I kept telling my wife, you know, we could be,and I always pick cold places, and we almost went to a school in Montreal, actually.That's a bit of another story, but I was like, it could be Alaska, it could be Maine, it could be Canada, and I never even thought about warmer places, and it ended up being Phoenix, and so it was an opportunity to get my foot in the door and begin teaching. So I knew to find a job in higher education, in seminary education specifically, I was gonna have to be open to moving anywhere.Matt Wireman00:07:45 - 00:07:55Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So you were teaching systematic theology and church history.Well, your major was systematic theology, was it, or was it church history?Brian Arnold00:07:55 - 00:08:00I'm Church History, so I study under Michael Haken and particularly Church Fathers.Matt Wireman00:08:00 - 00:08:23Okay, and then you moved to Phoenix in 2014, became the president. Can you walk us through that process? Like, I mean, that's a big jump. So you found yourself more in administrative type meetings. But what was it, I mean, to go from that to, you know, to go from just being in meetings to being a president is a pretty significant change. So walk us through.Brian Arnold00:08:23 - 00:08:45When I was dean for about two months. Does that count? Say what? That I was dean for about two months before I became president. So yeah, it's a bit of a convoluted story. Our president, who'd been here for 23 years, had even been one of the founders of it back in 1988.Matt Wireman00:08:45 - 00:08:47Dr. Del Husey, is that right? That's right.Brian Arnold00:08:46 - 00:12:05That's right. You have Dr. Darolda who say he had been pastor of Scottsdale Bible Church, which is probably one of the first big mega church churches in America. And so his background was more in church ministry, but he recognized even back in 1988, Phoenix is growing. Most people would be surprised, but it's the fifth largest city in the United States. And so here you have a city that's booming and there's no place to get a seminary education. So all of our best and brightest, most talented pastor candidates are leaving to go to seminary and they don't come back. So we need something here. And we were actually a branch campus of Western Seminary in our founding and they were independent from them around 1994 or so. So I was following a pretty long presidency of Dr. Del Jose, which is already a challenge in and of itself for somebody who's that deeply ingrained here. Now he serves as the chancellor and we've got a great relationship, really thankful for him. But he even recognized that they needed somebody who had more of an academic background to take it to the next level. And hesaid, I'm just waiting for somebody to come in and say they want my job. This is my first six months at Phoenix Seminary. And I walked down to his office, I said, I love your job. And I was just kidding. And I said, I'm kidding about that. I just, I know myself, I see myself more gifted and bent towards administration and leadership. So I would love to be mentored by you and really get to understand what higher education looks like from a leadership position. And so early on in my tenure here, I was really getting involved in the leadership aspects. I helped lead us through a major curriculum change. We had a bunch of two hour classes, we moved to three hour class system. So that gave me a lot of understanding in our workings. And through all that, I was coming up under Bing Hunter, our previous provost and dean, and was kind of gearing up for that position. Well, at the same time, the presidency was coming open. And I wanted to throw my hat in the ring because I see so much potential here. I'm very thankful for where Dr. Del Jose brought us. But I also recognize we really can get to the next level here and establish ourselves as one of the major theological institutions in the West, especially the Southwest. And when you think about where Phoenix is located, we're pretty good distance away from a lot of other seminaries. We're back east, they kind of seem to pile up on top of each other. So there's a lot of even geographically speaking, room here to grow. And to really, I tell all of our team all the time, I'm asking people just to grab some basket and pick the low hanging fruit. I mean, we're here with Arizona State University, which is the largest undergrad, GCU, which is now the largest Christian undergrad,we've got a great relationship with Arizona Christian University. So I saw all these things, I kept thinking, how can we grow this potential? And as the inside guy, I knew where our challenges were, I knew where our threats and our opportunities were. And so I just wanted to make a case to the board and say, as the inside guy, I know how to tweak some dials right now, they can get us moving in the right direction. And I think it was a long shot. I was a long shot, I think, from the very beginning of the whole process. And from what I understand, just kept kind of making it through to the next level to the next level to the next level until especially I got to be able to presentMatt Wireman00:12:05 - 00:12:08Survive in advance, right?Brian Arnold00:12:08 - 00:13:53It really is exactly what it felt like. But we used Carter Baldwin, which is an executive search firm. When the rep, you get to the round of eight or nine or so, he flies around the country to meet with you wherever you're at. So we flew back out to Phoenix and we sat down to meet for our interview. His very first question, at the time I was 35, he said, you're 35, you don't have much higher education experience. Why now? You're coming into Dean's role. Why not just learn that and climb the ranks that way? I said to him, honestly, for me, it's an issue of gifting. The gifting and skill set, you need to be a really accomplished dean. A lot of times, it's a very different skill set to be a successful president. Deans are a lot of times, they're the ones that are keeping the trains moving and they're really keeping you within the lanes of accreditation and assessment and all those different pieces with the DOE and ATS and ensuring that the institution is healthy from that vantage point. I see myself more as the big picture visionary. I want to be out there preaching. I want to be casting vision. I want to be meeting with donors. Because for me, donor relationships are not only a great opportunity for pastoral ministry, but it's also a chance to just explain what my heart is and vision is for the seminary, and see if they want to partner with us. When I just look at skill set wise, I saw myself having a better skill set for the presidency. I said, that may come across arrogant, I don't mean it to. It really is just about finding the right seat on the bus for each person. I think I could sit in the presidency and do okay. Here we are.Matt Wireman00:13:53 - 00:14:46So here we are. Yeah, well, I know it's very exciting, very exciting. I'm really thankful that you're in that presidency. Because one of the things that I love about your story is that you said you could be totally content serving at a local church. You know, and a lot of times, even within higher education, Christian higher education, even, that there can be this sense of climbing the corporate ladder, you know, paying your dues and then being entitled to being a successor and all these things. But I love that you framed it and saying, I would have been content and happy and would have lived a fruitful life being a pastor in a town that people hadn't heard of, because that's valuable. Because one of the things that's unique about Phoenix Seminary, what's the tagline or the mission statement for Phoenix? This is a quiz. This is a quiz.Brian Arnold00:14:45 - 00:14:48No problem. Scholarship at the Shepherd's Heart.Matt Wireman00:14:48 - 00:15:36Yeah, so I would love for you to reflect on, not only as the president, but as a formerpastor, as someone who has a pastor's heart, a shepherd's heart, what is that relationship that you view, and you could view it in both sides, because you've had both hats on, of what that relationship is between a seminary and the church. So much of the theological fighting that took place in many of the seminaries took place because there was a divorcing of, or a assuming of, roles as opposed to a tight relationship between the seminary and the church. So I'd love for you to just reflect on why the seminary is valuable to the local church, and why then the local church is valuable to a seminary.Brian Arnold00:15:36 - 00:18:31Absolutely. I think we have to begin with what is God's plan for humanity? And a big part of that is the church. Jesus died for his bride. It is the church. That's his plan for the world. That's his mission for the world. And so I think it's important for people in my position now to always remember that we are really the quartermasters. We're the ones behind, we're off the front lines. We're equipping, we're preparing, we're training, we're sending out. But really the battlefield's out there in the mission field of the church. And so I'm very happy to be recognizing my backseat role as a parachurch ministry, helping undergird God's plan for the world. And what helped me with that is that I've been in both worlds. So I realized very quickly in my pastorate that had I not had a seminary education, I would have been in a tough spot. So why is that? Like, yeah. Yeah. So we moved to Smithland in June of 2012. And we already had a vacation that was going to be planned. So we went on that and I'm on the beach on the East Coast. And I get this phone call from one of my deacons and he was a deacon and his dad was a deacon. And he said, Hey, I just want you to know, my father's kidneys are failing. And we don't know what that's going to mean for him. My wife was just diagnosed with breast cancer and my daughter's best friend just committed suicide. And I remember sitting there on the beach thinking, okay, that was the shortest ministry honeymoon in the history of humanity. I haven't even like really landed there yet. And this is already, I'm already recognizing how messy ministry is and you're really entering into broken lives of people. Well, I was going to be preaching through Philippians first off. And here I am at a local small Southern Baptist church in Western Kentucky preaching three times a week, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. And I'd probably preached 10 times total before I took that position. So in my first month, I'm going to be preaching more than I've preached my entire life. And I'm going through Philippians, all of a sudden you get to Philippians two pretty quickly and you get this issue of kenosis. What does it mean that Jesus emptied himself? If I had a seminary training, the background, understanding my Christology, you can get to a text like that. It's going to take you forever to walk through the challenges that present you in that text. But I was so thankful because the seminary education put me that much further ahead, even to my own preparation and study that I was used to exegeting the text when I came totheological challenges. It wasn't the first time I'd seen them or thought through them before. So that actually freed me up to do more ministry in the church because I had a deeper understanding of the text already. Does that make sense? So, yeah.Matt Wireman00:18:29 - 00:19:32Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, you're not having to try to figure out like so many times I talk to guys who, you know, are in the middle of seminary training or haven't had seminary training and then they, yeah, great, great example, Philippians 2, and they're like, I didn'tknow this was an issue. And then they read one guy and they're like, I think I agree with that. And then they read another guy and they're like, I think I agree with that too. And they're like diametrically opposed to each other. And you're like, well, that will make a dramatic effect on how you for one read all of Philippians and then the entire New Testament and those kinds of things. So yeah, I hear you. And along with that, just a little side note, a lot of times people ask, well, how long does it take you to prepare a sermon? It's like, well, you know, each sermon has got, you know, 20 years of teaching behind it, you know, 20 years of education behind it. It's not something that I just kind of whip up over, you know, in a week. It's something that there is a lot of training that's going behind every single sermon. So it's kind of a misnomer to say, well, how long is your sermon prep? It's like, well, it's a couple decades. That's right.Brian Arnold00:19:31 - 00:20:06That's right. Exactly. David Allen Black says the pastor should be like an iceberg. People see the top 10% above the water, but they know that there's 90% below it as well. But I don't know that we've really helped people in the church see just how important that is or they're not connecting those dots. You know, this is not a knock on where I was coming from and I pastor it. But a lot of the pastors in Western Kentucky did not have a theological education. And I knew some of them who'd show up to church on Sunday morning, do like a flip open method of sermon prep, wherever they open the Bible. It's like, Hey, that's.Matt Wireman00:20:05 - 00:20:12like, Hey, that's, you're not, you're not exaggerating. Right? I mean, this is like, cause people joke about that, but there were people actually doing it.Brian Arnold00:20:12 - 00:20:54who did that down the road from where I was a pastor. And just to show you this, this is not to pat myself on the back, it's to pat seminary education on the back. That's right, that's right, that's right. Is I had a guy who my very first Sunday was my sermon I was preaching to get hired at the church. He's about 75, he graduated by the army. And this guy could have taken me. He's a strong, tough guy. And he pulls me to the side and he goes, we don't need a preacher. Those are a dime a dozen. We need a pastor. Do you understand what I'm telling you? And I was like, yes, sir, I know exactly what you mean. And he wanted to know that as I was coming into my late 20s, that I was going to love people, be there with them, to walk through suffering. Absolutely. I mean, that's my heart. I want to do that.Matt Wireman00:20:22 - 00:20:23That's right, that's right, that's right.Brian Arnold00:20:54 - 00:22:52Same guy, we have a great relationship, but he's not much of a talker over the next three years while I'm pastoring. My very last Sunday, he grabs me again and pulls me to the side. I doubt he even remembered that initial conversation. And he said to me, I've been in the church for 50 years, and I've never learned as much or gone deeper in my walk with Christ or understood the Bible as much as I have these last three years. I only tell that story to say, and I'll tell this to my students, is don't underestimate the power of opening God's Word and preaching through it in an expository way. God will change lives doing that. But it was my seminary education that helped me do that. And even if my church couldn't articulate it, it's like, why is our church... We were growing in a really healthy way. Other churches, you could tell people were like, okay, these people at Smith and First are really getting fed. And I wasn't sitting there drawing the lines all the time for them. But when I left, I tried to help encourage the deacon saying, think about what you said about the preaching ministry here is because I was seminary trained. So go back to that pond and fish again. Because I knew quite literally, there's a couple thousand people just down the road who love the Lord, are committed to the gospel, and have the right type of training to do it. So now on my side of things, that makes me even more passionate, having been a pastor for a couple years, knowing what I needed in the pastorate. And now I can help deliver and train that for other people who are now... You're starting to see students come back and say, oh my goodness, you're right.This is having a significant impact on my ministry. I see guys here, Matt, who have been in ministry for 20 years who are now coming back and getting seminary education, who are lamenting that. And they're saying, I put the cart before the horse. I really wish I had known 20 years ago what I know now. My ministry would have been different.Matt Wireman00:22:52 - 00:24:16Yeah. Well, I'd like to revisit this relationship between the church and the seminary and just your diagnosis of why there is, in some ways, you know, a dumbing down of the pastorate in some ways of where people are like, we don't need all that education. It's like, well, I don't know why the person has to have a Southern accent. You know, Southerners, we get beat up on sometimes. But, you know, you want to say you can preach, period. Like there's a beauty in saying, you know, if God has called you to preach, preach. And yet at the same time, we want to bridle that horse up and be able to say there's a lot of good here. But I just have found like a lot of times people are very quick, and I'm sure medical doctors get this too and lawyers get this too, where people are like, I know you studied for like 20 years, but I read this. I've got a webMD. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of times that happens at the church too, but in some ways, we havebeen the cause of that problem by saying education is not important. So I'd love for you to just kind of tease out a little bit more like how you see the seminary serving the local church.Brian Arnold00:24:16 - 00:27:36Absolutely. And this argument is trotted out quite a bit, but I think it's important. Andyou kind of said it there, people expect their doctors and lawyers to have a certain levelof training because what they're doing is of great importance. How much more the careof souls, the shepherding of people's eternity, and for people to know and understand things. Yeah, there's been a historic challenge here, at least in the last couple of hundred years between the seminary and the church. And when you think back over time, a lot of the people who were most theologically trained were week in and week out pastors. If you think about the Reformation, you think about people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, these guys were pastors who were also leaders in theology. It's really not almost until the Enlightenment where you begin to see a wedge put between the seminary and the church as higher education because of its own kind of thing, where you might have seminary professors who have not been pastors before. And so I think that even then leads further to people seeing a greater divide between them. I think it's everybody kind of knowing those places. So as I mentioned before, recognizing, yes, the church is God's purpose for the world, but there's substantial training that a pastor must have in order to faithfully execute that office. It's a high office that God has called upon. When you think about somebody like Paul man, right, he's converted. He's already well-trained and yet he secludes himself kind of more training. Even think about the apostles before they're sent off in Matthew 28. Jesus is with them for three years. I mean, that's a pretty solid seminary education that they're receiving. And Christian history for the last 2,000 years has been deeply invested in education and recognizing that we are touching sacred things and people need to know those. And so if seminaries recognize their parachurch status more and the recognition that local churches simply cannot do what seminaries can do. I know very few churches, maybe if any, where you have somebody you could teach Greek, Hebrew, systematics, church history, evangelism and discipleship, world missions, all the different things that you kind of get from a seminary education, local church can do this. So the idea is, right, there's a hub of education that many churches can pour into and get trained from and then they get sent back out to their churches. Working together in tandem like that with the recognition that a seminary should be chosen by a student if that seminary is deeply invested in the work of the local church. I mean, if they're not and they're just actually a think tank or an ivory tower, then don't go there. But if a seminary is actually saying, look, our heartbeat is for the local church, that is what God has given us. All we want to do is give you those tools that you can't get from the local church and let us equip you in those ways and then we'll send you right back. Hopefully, we're on fire for God. Hopefully, deeper in their ability to handle the text, more aware of how to do actual practical ministry, all these different pieces so that they don't get this divided. I mean, the saddest stories are oh, Johnny was a great preacher before he went to seminary or, you know, Bill was so in love with the Lord and then he went to seminary.Matt Wireman00:27:36 - 00:27:44What happens to those guys? Why is that sometimes part of the narrative, you think?Brian Arnold00:27:45 - 00:28:43It's a great question. Partly, I often wonder if it's a straw man kind of argument. I mean, you and I were at Southern Together. When I think back, whenever I'd hear people talk bad about seminary, and I'm thinking, I'm with these guys who love the Lord and are bringing their education to the pew week in and week out. I never understood that. I never understood why people say those things. And chances are, a lot of times it was going to be a person who was going to be a bad fit for ministry anyway. Seminary can't, if I can say this, maybe you'll have to edit this part out later, I don't know. But seminary cannot take a weirdo and make them not a weirdo. Right? Seminary can't take somebody who has no actual gifting from the Lord in pastoral ministry and somehow do that. I mean, there's spiritual gifts involved in this as well. Sometimes I think seminaries unfairly bear the brunt of criticism that we're not responsible for.Matt Wireman00:28:43 - 00:29:53Yeah, and in some ways, like people, you know, one of the things at Southern, and I don't know if Phoenix does this or not, I'd like to know, but you know, you have to get a reference from your church that you're a member at. And I think, and I'm afraid that many churches are not doing the hard work of saying, hey, brother, you probably need to get some humility before you go to seminary because there'll be some classes and I know you were in these classes too, not you, you weren't doing this, but there were guys in classes, I was like, I would never be a congregant in that man's church because he is abrasive, he is proud and everyone sees it. And then the seminary is supposed to miraculously just say, hey, you shouldn't be a pastor. It's like, that's not the seminary's job. It's just really frustrating that, you know, the talking heads or the, you know, the heads on a stick as it were, that gets to be the misnomer for seminaries when in fact, it's taking, you know, what Paul said, a fan in the flame, the gift that was given to you and how you do that, well, you put more fodder on the fire and how you do that, you get more training, you get more education to be able to do that.Brian Arnold00:29:54 - 00:31:24Absolutely. Yeah, they should be people that the church is already saying, we see the call of God on your life. And, you know, one of the ways this does go sideways sometimes, Matt, and this is a sad situation is where people are deeply involved and invested in their local church. People do recognize the gift that God has given them. They want them to fan it into flame. They recognize their need for education. They go to seminary and they stop being that involved in their local church. That happens, I think that's a record for disaster, right? So, one of the things that I'm passionate about as a president here is even mentoring. So, one of the things that I did love about Phoenix Seminary as soon as I came here is that every student has a mentor. And I've not really seen that in other seminaries before. And that's one of the areas we're going to be investing in a lot more in the next year or two. But I think about even these books on pastoral calling. The one that always sticks out to me is Paul David Tripp's, Dangerous Calling. And on the original cover, there's five endorsements on the back. Three of them aren't in ministry anymore. On a book on how dangerous pastoral ministry is. So, why are we seeing all these ministries implode? And everybody looks to me as though we're the sole solution. Now, we're going to do everything we can to help bridge that, to remind people that as deep as they go, or maybe as high as they go in academic theology, they need to go deeper into the roots of their spirituality.Matt Wireman00:31:24 - 00:32:01Trust me, just seminaries are not giving people passes. They're not rubber stamping people. They're trying to do their due diligence, teaching students humility by giving them accommodating grades. So, this is actually average or below average, go do work.So, the seminaries are...the ones who are, like you said, embedded within and see theirmission as a parachurch ministry are hugely...are very successful in what they do, but people can't start imputing upon the seminary what they ought to be doing, which is not part of their charter, right? Absolutely.Brian Arnold00:32:01 - 00:33:08That's right. But this is a big fight out there right now and debate between some theologians of what's the seminary's role in these things. And I just see a vicious cycle of churches that are not doing a good job of discipleship because a lot of their pastors were never personally discipled. I was and it changed my life. A lot of people have never had that. And then they go to seminary and they don't really learn that because the seminary says, well, it's not my job. And then we wonder why the local church isn't doing it. And they're producing people who've never seen it. And we're in this pattern.And so I want to just say, what can we do at Phoenix Seminary to just help break someof this pattern to say, look at how powerful and impactful personal mentoring can be.Now, in your church, now that you have this theological education, you've been mentored, how do you start almost like a master's plan of evangelism? I'm going to disciple my elders and deacons. And now they're going to take two or three people and they're going to disciple them. Where would our churches be? That was true. And then even thinking, you know, some people want to use the seminary like it's a Sundayschool class or something, right? Like I want to know more about theology, so I'm going to go to the seminary.Matt Wireman00:32:02 - 00:32:03That's right. That's right. But this is a big.Brian Arnold00:33:09 - 00:33:34I'm fine to train those people. That's great. Come, we'll give you a great education. But what I'm hoping is I'm putting out pastors who can take that to their church and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. So we just have this, you know, I think you used this term earlier, this dumbing down all over the place of where pastors think that what people need is something other than doctrine and theology.Matt Wireman00:33:34 - 00:35:33And other than a good kick in the pants. Yeah, at times. In that, you know, no, you did not exegete this passage appropriately. No, that word does not mean that. And no, you cannot do that. You know, like being able to help push people to say, no, no, no, we are, like you said, I thought so well put that we are shepherding souls. And there is a lot at stake. Most of the people that I have heard of and have met that have been hurt by people are by those who have not gone through the rigors of some kind of training ground. Now, it doesn't necessarily have to be a seminary. It could be a church-based training ground, but some kind of training ground as opposed to like, hey, you know, this is, you know, Johnny Preacher that feels called. And I think in so many ways, people, there are many wounded Christians because they haven't, folks haven't done the hard work of being challenged and having to come up with a biblical explanation of why they believe exe regarding this practice that they believe. That's right. You know, and I do wonder too, if in some ways the seminary is inundated with Christians who love Jesus, but who are not called to ministry because the particularly evangelical church, since that's our context, has not done a good job of heralding vocation. And what I mean by that is, you know, being able to say, hey, what are you passionate about? Did you know that you can serve Jesus faithfully as an electrician, faithfully as a plumber, faithfully as a doctor and a lawyer? Because I remember when I was in college, if you were really sold out for Jesus, you went into full-time ministry. So, you know, I've interfaced with several folks who are like, I don't know if you're called to preaching. Well, I don't think you're called to preaching ministry, but I think you're called to ministry, but your bread and butter may be from somewhere else.Brian Arnold00:35:34 - 00:37:35Absolutely. Yeah. And there's been a lot of confusion. There's been some good work recently, I think, that's overcoming some of those kind of stereotypical type of pieces that we felt when we were coming up through the ranks. It was one of the issues, though, the Phoenix Seminary, I would say, if there was a little bit of mission drift, it was more towards training people who just felt the lack of solid theological teaching in their local churches. One of the things we have in Phoenix is you will have the hour-long worship service, and a lot of times, that's it. There's no Sunday night. Wednesday night, I might have kids and youth kind of ministry things, but nothing for the adults, and then small group ministry. And we've all been helped by small groups. I think those kinds of communities are really great for developing deep relationships with people. But what's missing in the churches now is that educational element where people just don't knowthe basics of the Christian faith anymore. So, even when a person says, I've been really involved in this church, I feel called to ministry, and then they come to seminary, they don't know anything because their churches have never really invested in that. It's one of the interesting trends I think we need to keep an eye on is how many churches are kind of returning to a Sunday school type of model, recognizing the vacuum that's been left when people don't know what the Trinity is and don't know who Jesus is and don't understand salvation. We go down the list, and we have a very illiterate church population today. And this is the wrong time to have that. With the challenges that are happening in society, we need people to know the faith better than ever because there's no cultural assumptions anymore. And in that kind of hostile environment,Christians are gonna have to either know the word deeply or they're gonna be swept away in the time. And that would be really concerned for the kids. And so, yeah, we all know these issues, right?Matt Wireman00:37:34 - 00:38:47Yeah, no, it bears explicating because I think a lot of people know that there's something in the water that's not tasting right, and to be able to call it and say, no, that's arsenic. Or, you know, that will kill you if you drink it because that's...I mean, evenpart of my own story when I was serving overseas, I could smell heresy when I was talking to different pastors at different churches, but I couldn't articulate, oh, that's a heresy because that is the kenotic theory. You know, I couldn't do that, whereas, you know, seminary helped to do that for me. You know, I'd love to, as a seminary president, you're sitting down with someone who loves Jesus and is in a vocation other than being a pastor or a missionary or going into seminary. And they're like, I just want to grow in my faith. My church doesn't have, you know, Sunday school. My church doesn't...like, what you just articulated. So how would you counsel someone who doesn't feel called to pastoral or missionary work but wants to grow in their faith? Are there any books or are there different avenues that they could go down that you would encourage them to get better trained?Brian Arnold00:38:47 - 00:40:12Dr. Seheult- That's a great question, Matt. We are living in a time of great resources.When you think about what's being put out all the time, either through technology oreven through book medium, there's just a lot of helpful things out there. So I would encourage this person in a number of ways. One, if they're looking at any kind of leadership in the church, from deacon to elder, any kind of position like that, I would say seminary education would be really beneficial. You might not need the full MDiv, but getting in and getting kind of a Master of Arts in Ministry that gives you a lot of the groundwork would be really helpful. But again, for the person who just says, I'm an electrician, but I'm passionate about the Lord, I want to know more. I would encourage them to start with one of my colleagues' books, actually, and that's Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. He's got the second edition coming out in December. And so lots more content. And I think that's where I cut my teeth theologically. And I know there's places that people disagree with Wayne on some things. I do too. But it's still, I think, the most readable, helpful entree into theology. So I think starting there to get the kind of the whole picture of theology through the Bible is helpful. And then I would even encourage some intro kind of books to the New Testament and to the Old Testament, things like Carson and Moo on the New Testament to give them those kinds of pieces.Matt Wireman00:40:12 - 00:40:22You're talking about their introduction to the New Testament, right? Absolutely. Google it, Amazon or introduction to the Old Testament. Those are just surveys of those different books.Brian Arnold00:40:22 - 00:41:05Yep, yep. The Faith of Israel by Dumbrell might be a great place to start with the Old Testament. But as a Dominion of Dynasty by Dempster would be another great place to start with the Old Testament. So there's all these resources. And then whoever you want to teach you today, you can find it on YouTube. You can go there and get a lot of great content from some of the best teachers in the world a click away. And so take advantage of yourself those resources. What we can't say is there's not enough resources. Like there's plenty of those. We might say there's not enough time and then I'd ask about your Netflix, binging, you know, we can certainly binge some other things as well that would be more helpful and beneficial to the soul.Matt Wireman00:41:05 - 00:41:34And so some of it too is along with those resources, I've found that there are a lot of folks that feel like they're swimming in a sea of resources and they don't know which are the good ones to be able to find a someone that you trust. And I'm going to avail myself to anybody who's listening to this and I know you would too, Brian, but like, you know, if you need help and direction, just send me a message and happy to happy to direct you because there are tons of resources and there's tons of really bad resources to run.Brian Arnold00:41:34 - 00:41:47That's exactly right. One of the things, I'm happy you said that, Matt. One of the things that, when I got the bug for theology in college, my roommates and I, we'd always get the CBD catalog. Maybe that dates me a little bit.Matt Wireman00:41:46 - 00:41:51Yeah, no, it's still going strong. I still need to get up on there.Brian Arnold00:41:51 - 00:41:57Catalog, why I still use CBD for four. And then, by the way, let's just tell the listeners that's not the oil.Matt Wireman00:41:57 - 00:42:04Yeah, that's not the oil. That's Christian Book Distributors. CVD. That's right. Not O-R-D or something.Brian Arnold00:42:05 - 00:42:51Absolutely. When my wife said, you know what CBD is? I'm like, I've been shopping there for years. Let's clarify that. But that's a great place to get resources. But I can remember getting that and seeing some Old Testament books, especially Gerhard von Raad's Old Testament Theology. It was like six bucks. And I'm thinking, I don't know much about the Old Testament. I really would love a book to help with that. But I knew enough about that name to say, I need to be suspicious. That might not be the best resource. But I don't know what is. When there's almost too many resources, you go to LifeWay, and if I can say this without getting in trouble, a lot of the resources that are fronted there are the last things I would encourage people to read. You got to go back into the back into a small corner section to find the real gems there.Matt Wireman00:42:51 - 00:43:21Well, you know what's been interesting even in the resources that you mentioned is not10 ways to be a better husband or 10 steps to be a more biblical wife. It's actually learn the Bible. That's the dearth of information that we're having a problem with is that people don't know where Malachi is in the Bible. And they don't know that he was a prophet. And they don't know all these things. It's like, get to know the Bible. That's the first place you should start.Brian Arnold00:43:20 - 00:44:21Absolutely. Absolutely. And then, you know, so one of the things that was great for mewith seminary education was I'm learning to even know what the resources are. Like, that was a big part of it for me is now I feel like I can pick things up, know where theywent to school, know when they went to school there, and get a pretty good picture already of where they may stand. And then you get the grid, right, for being able to filtersome things out. But also, I hope you're at a church, and this is another plug for seminary education, where the pastor has a seminary education, who can help provide those resources, who knows those things. So I hope you're at a place where your staff is able to do that. In the meantime, if not, find somebody who is that you trust, and they would be happy. Any time that people come to me and they say, can I get a resource on X, whatever that is, that is one of the things that give me the greatest joy in answering, because that tells me there's another Christian out there who really wants to go deeper with the Lord, and I'm always happy to help resource.Matt Wireman00:44:21 - 00:44:41Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. Now, so for the person who is at a church and they feel like they want to go into full-time ministry, can you just kind of walk through how does someone come to that decision to where they're like, I think I should be a pastor or a missionary?Brian Arnold00:44:41 - 00:44:47Absolutely. I mean, step one, ps.edu, you apply online.Matt Wireman00:44:47 - 00:44:52And he will waive your admission fee.Brian Arnold00:44:52 - 00:44:57Just mention Matt Wireman in the comments or something. No, it's a great...Matt Wireman00:44:56 - 00:44:58No, it's a great. Yeah.Brian Arnold00:44:58 - 00:47:11I wrestled with that as well. I mean, here I was in fire EMS. My dad had been a fire chief.That's the world I knew. And I didn't even think I could have been satisfied in a career doing that. I know CH Spurgeon is often used, if you could do anything else besides ministry, do it. I don't really agree with Spurgeon on that one. Because of why? Well, because I think that a lot of people who do well in ministry are people of deep curiosity and they love a lot of different things and they themselves given 10 lives doing 10 different things. Well put. Right. So I would say that God calls people to ministry and it's not unique to me. It's kind of the historic answer in two ways, the internal call and the external call. The internal call is when you start to say, Lord, is that you calling me to ministry? Like, I feel a passion for this. I want to teach the Bible. When I was in seminary, or I'm sorry, my undergrad, one of the biggest kind of moments in my early life was sitting at a Bible study in Campus Crusade and my campus director is there and he's leading us through Colossians. And I remember thinking, you get paid to teach people the Bible. That's amazing. Like, I would love to do that. That's what I'm so interested and passionate about. So I had that internal call. And then I started going to other people and saying, do you see this gift in me? Could we give me some teaching opportunities where we can actually see, is this there? And could God use me in this way? And I had three or four people in my life who are still in my life to this day that all affirmed that. And so I know that question's more for, should I go into ministry? But even for me with PhD work, I remember Dr. Russ Fuller sitting me down in his office and saying, I think you should consider doing PhD work. And that was a great confirmation to me that I should move on. So I, when weighting these things, more often weigh the external call higher than the internal call because I can be deceived. But chances are, if I'm asking four or five other mature believers, do you see this call of God in my life? And they're being honest, you're going to get some really good answers to that.Matt Wireman00:47:12 - 00:48:38And I think for that person to start with a posture of, I don't see clearly, and God has given other people to me in my life to help me see clearly. Because a lot of times, you know, folks will ask me like, I think I'm called the ministry. And I'm like, well, that's awesome. Celebrate, first of all. And I don't want to stiff arm anybody in that. No, that's right. We need more laborers. But then secondly, listen to somebody that cares for you and actually is in the work of that ministry to say, hey, maybe instead of going to seminary right now, maybe you could just be here for a couple years and get some relational tools in your belt, you know, so that you can learn like, what is it you're getting into? Because maybe in two years of volunteering at a church, you know, and it's not just to get free labor for people, it's actually in a service to them to be able to say, hey, why don't you just serve here as a volunteer, because if you don't want to do it as a volunteer, then you're probably not, it's going to be even more tainted when you get paid for it. I promise you that. If you're not willing to not be paid for this, then it's going to get tainted really fast. I've seen tons of people in full time ministry who depend upon full time ministry for their salaries, and their lives become a shipwreck, because they start to treat God and divine matters as a slot machine, you know, andBrian Arnold00:48:38 - 00:49:00Absolutely. And there's not much in that slot machine. Let's just say that as well. I mean,ministry, it was really hard. I mean, I had breakfast with my wife this morning and we were just kind of going over some different pieces and remembering back to my years in pastoral ministry when things were exceptionally brutally tight. And it was a challenge.Matt Wireman00:49:00 - 00:49:07As you're getting a call about a man who just, you know, has all of those things going on in his life, right? Yeah, yeah.Brian Arnold00:49:07 - 00:50:06Yeah, exactly. And recognizing that there were times that I just needed to keep going back to 1st Corinthians 9. Woe to me if I don't preach the gospel. Like, it has to be so deep-seated in you. And this is where I will tip the hat to Spurgeon a little bit and say I get why he's saying that. Because there has to be that fire in the belly. Even if I'm not getting paid for it, even if I'm booted out of two or three churches, God has put such a call in my life, I must preach the gospel. I want to see the harvest field full of those kinds of laborers who just say, I'm here because God has called me here. And even if I don't get converts, and even if I run into wall after wall and obstacle after obstacle, God has called me to preach and I'm going to do it. And I think back about people like the Puritans as they were getting kicked out of their ministries and then you have the Five Mile Act. They couldn't be within five miles of their old parishes. And yet they're still preachers of the gospel. We need more of that in our day.Matt Wireman00:50:07 - 00:50:20Yeah, that's great. I'd love to ask what you see as a president of a seminary, what you see are some of the challenges to higher education right now, particularly as it relates to seminary education?Brian Arnold00:50:20 - 00:53:22Sure. I think there's multiple, and there are internal threats and there's external threats as well. The internal threats are a lot of what you and I have been talking about today, Matt, and that is back 20 or 30 years ago, if you were gonna go into pastoral ministry, you would not find a position without having a degree. A master of divinity degreewould have been the bare requirement expected of somebody to go in. Well, now, churches don't really seem to care about that or, you know, an undergrad degree will suffice if it's in Bible. But let's be honest, a lot of pastors don't even have that. They were in banking and felt a call on their life. And so that's part of it from where I'm sittingis how many people in churches I see who don't even care about that minimal level of expertise in the field. So that's one of those kinds of threats, I think. Another one, and these go more to external than, is there's a higher ed bubble out there anyway. And everybody kind of sees this out there as the next one that could burst. And if it bursts, that's gonna be catastrophic on undergraduate institutions. Well, I'm downstream of undergraduate institutions. So if there's fewer and fewer people going to undergrad institutions, then there's gonna be fewer people going to graduate school as well. And so I think that could be a place where we begin to take a bit of pressure and a bit of a hit with enrollment that way. I think part of it is gonna be the cultural piece. It's not getting any easier out there. I think Christian institutions in particular that are going to stay faithful on issues of gender and sexuality are going to have a very difficult road ahead of them. And this is where I hope that the Lord gives us the fulfillment of this. And that is, I hope there's always a Phoenix Seminary. If we had to lose our accreditation because of our stances on some of those issues, then so be it. If we lose a lot of donor money because of our stances, then so be it. If it's just us without walls, we're going into a church basement somewhere and teaching theology, I hope there's always something like that. I think about a guy like Dietrich Bonhoeffer with Fingermann. He's, what do you do in the midst of Nazi Germany oppression? You start a seminary, right? It's amazing. The thing that people would think, well, that needs to go. It's like, no, no, no, we need this now more than ever. So all the threats that I see, those being some of the major ones, I still believe that what we are called to do at a seminary is vital for the health and vitality of the church. And as long as the church is here, we're going to need places of theological higher ed to help prepare those people in the word. So I don't worry about the threats too much. I mean, we got to be wise and anticipate some of those things that are coming and get ready. But at the same time, I think our call is always going to be there.Matt Wireman00:53:23 - 00:53:39That's great. I'd love to hear, I got two more questions for you. Just as you explain some of the challenges to higher ed, particularly Christian higher ed and seminaries, what do you see as some of the greater challenges to the church, to the local church now?Brian Arnold00:53:41 - 00:55:19Yeah, a lot of those would be the same kind of ones, right? Is the pressure right now to conform to the world has probably not been greater in American society since our founding, right? I mean, this is a very new shift in Western civilization. And so I can't imagine being a 12-year-old right now about ready to go to junior high and high school, facing the kind of pressures that these kids are facing from a worldview standpoint. And I think churches have not been well equipped to speak into those. And so they're getting a lot of it from culture, not from the church. Well, pretty soon the churches are going to be far emptier than they are now because of just attrition to the culture. So I think that's a real serious, not existential threat because Jesus has promised that the church will not be overcome by the gates of hell. And I believe that promise and I'm not worried about the church from that aspect, but I do think the harder times are coming for the church. But a lot of that to me goes back and maybe I sound like a one-trick pony on this, but I think the deeper that a pastor is able to go and root people in, then it doesn't matter how hard the winds blow, those people will stay rooted. My fear is that we are seeing in the church these trends coming. And so instead of raising the bar, we keep lowering the bar and wondering why people don't hit it and wondering why peopleare leaving, but we're not giving them a beautiful counter narrative to it at all.Matt Wireman00:55:19 - 00:55:22Lowering the bar in what sense?Brian Arnold00:55:21 - 00:55:55Well, even kind of what we're talking about, right? Why is it that the saints of God know so little about the Bible? Why do they know so little about theology? Why is it when Ligonier comes out with these surveys that they do, they had one question in there, it was a couple of years ago now, maybe just a year or two, it was something about Jesus's humanity was Jesus, like, you know, basically was denying the divinity of Christ,almost like an Aryan kind of response. And I don't know if it was the way the question was worded or something, but it was like 75% of people who took it look like they were Aryans. That should never be.Matt Wireman00:55:55 - 00:56:21And if you don't know what an Aryan is, that's A-R-I-A-N, go look it up. That's one way to look it up. If you don't know what something is, there are tons of resources to be able to just look it up. So if you're hearing this and you're like, Aryan? No, we're not talking about a nation or anything like that. We're talking about the Aryanism. So look up Aryanism and you'll find something. Even if it's on Wikipedia, that's better than nothing.Brian Arnold00:56:21 - 00:56:24That's right. That's right. Just don't become one.Matt Wireman00:56:23 - 00:56:25Yeah, exactly, exactly.Brian Arnold00:56:25 - 00:57:34So they're just not ready. And so we have this view in the church that these concepts are so hard, so big, so difficult. We don't want it to feel like school to people. So we would rather give them 10 steps, like you said before, of healthy parenting and marriage. And everybody wants these practical pieces without understanding the substance of the Christian faith, which is the greatest place for the practical piece of Christian ministry. Like the deeper I know God, the better my marriage is gonna be. The better I know the word, the better my parenting's gonna be. I don't need these offshoots. I need people to take me deeper into the things of God through his word so that I'm prepared to handle anything that comes at us. But instead, we keep moving that lower. And I'm always amazed when you have like an astrophysicist in your church who's like, oh, I just don't really understand the Bible. Look, one of the things that we believe is in the perspicuity of scriptures. Now that's like one of the worst named doctrines ever. It just means the Bible is clear and it should be able to be understood by anyone who calls himself a Christian. So I think oftentimes it's not for intellectual ability,it's lack of trying.Matt Wireman00:57:37 - 00:58:09This has been awesome. I'd love to have our time closed by just a final exhortation that you might give to those who are listening as it relates to knowing the Bible. I think you already have done that and I'm thankful for that, but I'd love to hear, like if you were to sit down with someone who's listening to this podcast and you were to exhort them towards greater love for Jesus, a greater love for the Bible, what would you say to them over a cup of coffee?Brian Arnold00:58:09 - 00:59:55Yeah, I think I would reiterate what I have just the last thing I said is, if you really want to grow as a disciple of Christ, it's by knowing Him. It's by loving His word. And so don't think that I need something else outside, you know, the 10 lessons on this or that to actually grow in the walk with the Lord. Get deeper into those things. When I was in college, my life changed when I got deeper into theology. When I got deeper into theology, my walk got deeper. When suffering came in my life, it was the deep rootedness of my knowledge of who God is that got me through, not little trinkets on the side. And so as a theological educator and as one who is pastored, be a person who seeks those deeper things of God. Be a person who, if you're a pastor listening, take your people deeper. If you're somebody who's at a church that they just simply are not going to do that, find a new church. Life is short. You've got to be at a place that is going to take these things to the utmost seriousness. And I think by doing that, Christianity itself will be able to present that beautiful counter narrative to what's happening out there. As the saints of God, know Him better, cherish His word, and recognize that true human flourishing comes through loving God with all heart, mind, soul, and strength, and loving neighbor as yourself.Matt Wireman00:59:56 - 01:00:10Amen. Great. Thank you so much, Brian. This has been really refreshing and encouraging to be able to have this time with you. I'd love to ask you if you could just end our time by praying and thanking God for our time together and, and yeah, and then we'll close.Brian Arnold 01:00:10 - 01:01:11I'd be happy to. Matt, thanks for having me. This is great. You bet. God, I do thank you for moments like this when we get to take an hour or so and just dwell on you and think about you. And I thank you for Matt and this podcast that he's doing to help try to equip these saints out there for anybody who's listening to know you and your word better.And Lord, I do pray that there will be an awakening in your church. An awakening begins with people who are so full of the Spirit because they're so full of the Word of God. And I pray for pastors in this labor field who will really get the tools that they need and recognize that those are not some additional thing. But these are actually the tools of our trade to get people into this place where they can really love you, heart, mind, soul, body, strength, and begin to love their neighbor. And that people in this culture that is decaying will see that the gospel is full of life and full of fruit. Praise in Christ's name. Amen. Amen.Matt Wireman01:01:11 - 01:01:13Amen. Thank you, brother.Brian Arnold01:01:13 - 01:01:14Thanks again. I appreciate it.

Sex, Love, Addiction, and Reality TV: The Toxic Relationships of Vanderpump Rules — Rebecca was deep in her alcohol and sex & love addiction 18 years ago when she met Tom Sandavol at a Hollywood house party, and they slept together. Despite the fact, they both were in relationships. In the latest episode of Secret Life, host Brianne Davis teams up with guest Rebecca to delve deep into the intricate and toxic relationships portrayed on Bravo's Vanderpump Rules. Their critical and insightful analysis sheds light on the complex patterns of behavior and underlying issues at play, specifically focusing on the tumultuous love affair between Tom's narcissistic tendencies and Ariana. By examining the emotional dynamics and uncovering the nuances often overlooked by society, the podcast offers a serious exploration of the complexities of human relationships. From Tom and Raquel's affair to Ariana's missing the red flags, Secret Life dissects the frustrations of recovered sex and love addicts who feel that society fails to grasp the intricacies of these situations. Whether you're a devoted fan of the show or simply intrigued by the intricate dance between sex and love addiction, this thought-provoking podcast is a must-listen. Check out the 40 Sex & Love Addiction Questionnaire for yourself:https://slaafws.org/40-questions/For more information about Sex & Love Addicts Anonymous: https://slaafws.org/_____If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction, depression, trauma, sexual abuse or feeling overwhelmed, we've compiled a list of resources at secretlifepodcast.com.______To share your secret and be a guest on the show email secretlifepodcast@icloud.com_____SECRET LIFE'S TOPICS INCLUDE:addiction recovery, mental health, alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, OCD, ADHD, dyslexia, eating disorders, debt & money issues, anorexia, depression, shoplifting,  molestation, sexual assault, trauma, relationships, self-love, friendships, community, secrets, self-care, courage, freedom, and happiness._____Create and Host Your Podcast with the same host we use - RedCircle_____Get your copy of SECRET LIFE OF A HOLLYWOOD SEX & LOVE ADDICT -- Secret Life Novel or on Amazon______HOW CAN I SUPPORT THE SHOW?Tell Your Friends & Share Online!Follow, Rate & Review: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyFollow & Listen iHeart | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Amazon | PandoraSpread the word via social mediaInstagramTwitterFacebook#SecretLifePodcastDonate - You can also support the show with a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal (make payment to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com) or at our WEBSITE.Connect with Brianne Davis-Gantt (@thebriannedavis)Official WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterConnect with Mark Gantt (@markgantt)Main WebsiteDirecting WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterTranscriptBrianne 0:00:00Okay? So I know everything that's going on, and I just have to say to all the listeners, I don't do pop culture. I don't deal with that kind of shit. But this story, and I know you agreed with me, is so frustrating from a recovered sex and love addict that nobody's calling this shit, that they both are sex and love addicts.Tell me your secret, I'll tell you mine. Sometimes you have to go through the darkness to reach the light. That's what I did. After twelve years of recovery in sex and love addiction, I finally found my soulmate myself. Please join me in my novel, Secret Life of a Hollywood Sex and Love Addict. A four-time bestseller on Amazon. It's a brutal, honest, raw, gnarly ride, but hilarious at the same time. Check it out now on Amazon. Welcome to Secret Life Podcast.I'm Brianne Davis-Gantt. Today, I'm pulling back the curtains of all kinds of human secrets. You'll hear about what people are hiding from themselves or others. You know, those deep, dark secrets you probably want to take to your grave. Or those lighter, funnier secrets that are just plain embarrassing. Really, the how, what, when, where, and why of it all.Oh, my God. Today. My guest is Rebecca. Now, Rebecca, I have a question for you. Don't. Don't. Don't. What is your secret?Rebecca 0:01:31I had a one-night stand with Tom Sandoval 18 years ago when he had a girlfriend.Brianne 0:01:38Son of a nutcracker. He's been doing it for a long time.Rebecca 0:01:42Almost two decades.Brianne 0:01:44Two decades. Okay, before we get into it, when did this happen? Where did it happen? What?Rebecca 0:01:51Yeah, I know. So I met him originally in Miami. I lived in New York before, and I used to go to Miami a lot. And I want to say this was 2003 or 2004.Brianne 0:02:02Okay.Rebecca 0:02:03And I was drinking very heavily. Met him at a club. I was there with my sister. And I remember it's fuzzy because I was very, very drunk.Brianne 0:02:12This is before I got sober and.Rebecca 0:02:14I met him and a bunch of his friends at a club. And we thought he was cute, so we introduced ourselves, and then he said, Come hang out with us. And I remember him popping champagne bottles and spraying it, which he still does.Brianne 0:02:31Wow. Yeah.Rebecca 0:02:33And I don't remember who else was with him, but I know that he lived with Jax at the time, so.Brianne 0:02:37He might have been there.Rebecca 0:02:38I just don't remember. I didn't know him then, so we didn't hook up with him that night, but nothing happened. So then fast forward maybe a year, and at this point, me and my sister had moved to Los Angeles. And this is like, the height of my drinking. This is one of the most drunk nights I've ever had. Like, it sticks out as really out of control. Like, very out of control. And I went to a liquor store and I remember these guys coming in and thinking I was funny because I was drunk. And then they were like, do you want to go come to a house party with us? And like an idiot, I was like, sure. And I went to this house party. I don't know whose house it was, where it was, what part of town.Brianne 0:03:20Like, no clue, no memory.Brianne 0:03:22So scary. I'm so scared for you right now.Rebecca 0:03:25I know, but it was like a legit, typical Hollywood house party with a couple of another reality star. So there was probably some celebrities or well known Hollywood people at this party. And I remember seeing Tom sort of remember and going up to him. I'm like, oh, it's Tom Sandoval. Where I met him. Miami. I remembered him because we thought he was really cute. And I guess I went up to him and was like, do you remember me and my sister? She looks like a lot like me. And he said yes. And then I guess we were talking, and I said something like, my sister thinks you're really hot. Can I bring you home to her?Brianne 0:04:06We live together.Rebecca 0:04:07Can I bring you home for her?Brianne 0:04:09Like a present?Rebecca 0:04:11Exactly.Brianne 0:04:13Here's your party favorite. Enjoy. Okay.Rebecca 0:04:17I remember going home, and me and.Brianne 0:04:20My sister had lived together at the time, but she wasn't home for whatever reason.Rebecca 0:04:24So I said something like, well, I can't let you go to waste.Brianne 0:04:29Yeah, that's a line.Brianne 0:04:34Yeah.Rebecca 0:04:35He was completely unfazed by whoever, whatever. I was like, yeah, I can't let you go to waste, so do you want to go upstairs? And he was like, yeah, sure. I just remember thinking, okay, that was easy because at the time, I treated men like conquest, and I was very into male models. Since I had lived in New York, he was just another male model. So we went upstairs, did the deed. I sort of remember either. I told him first that I had a boyfriend.Brianne 0:05:04Okay.Rebecca 0:05:05He told me that he had a girlfriend, and it was very life, matter of fact.Brianne 0:05:08No guilt about it.Rebecca 0:05:10Just like, yeah, I have a girlfriend. Oh, yeah, I have a boyfriend. And then it was sort of right before the act.Brianne 0:05:16Yeah.Rebecca 0:05:17And then we did and it didn't take very long.Brianne 0:05:21It didn't last very long.Rebecca 0:05:22It wasn't very nothing to write home about, from what I remember. And then I guess I got his number because I gave it to my sister later, which is so weird and twisted.Brianne 0:05:31So weird and twisted. Alcoholic. Yeah. Here, I just left with him. Your turn, CIS.Brianne 0:05:41Yeah.Rebecca 0:05:41I was like, sorry, life. You weren't home. But she didn't care, and so he left. And then I hadn't seen him since. I haven't talked to him. I didn't ever text him.Brianne 0:05:52Okay. So I know everything that's going on, and I just have to say to all the listeners, I don't do pop culture. I don't deal with that kind of shit. But this story, and I know you agreed with me, it's so frustrating from a recovered sex and love addict that nobody's calling this shit, that they both are sex and love addicts.Brianne 0:06:16Exactly.Brianne 0:06:18It's so frustrating. And why did you reach out to me about it? Because I want to hear it from your point of view. Because you slept with him?Brianne 0:06:25Yes, because I've been watching the show, obviously. And I actually started watching because I recognized him on the commercials after I slept with him. This was about I don't know, it was years before Vanderpump Rules. And the whole case just fascinated me for so many reasons, as it does pretty much the rest of America and so many other people beyond. And it's just so layered and it's so interesting why it's captivated so many people. Considering cheating is not an uncommon thing, especially on Bravo, especially on Vanderpump Rules. It's like what the show was based on. So I really wanted to share that aspect of it and talk about how this is a pattern life. He was just found out. But this is happening 18 years ago. And since then I got sober, I'm in slaa, I've identified as a sex and love addict. So I just see so many things that people are not really talking about.Brianne 0:07:27Yeah, and society is missing. It's almost like a secret society is keeping from our human race, because the number one thing people want is love and affection and attention and intimacy. But majority of humans are terrified of it. So we go from person to person to person. Doesn't really even matter who they are, to get this need filled. And we're all just like running around like toddlers, wanting, giving, giving. And here's an example of two people willing to blow up their whole fucking life exactly. For that little thing where they think it's everything. It's that life. Roller coaster, intensity, passion. So let's break it down. So when you are watching it, and I know you've listened to a lot of other podcasts, I mean, JLo is talking about it like, JLo, that's crazy.Brianne 0:08:21It's in Time Magazine, it's in Variety, it's in every major publication. It sort of transcended the Bravo and reality show universe. And there's a reason why I think it's relatable to so many people, but they can't quite put their finger on why.Brianne 0:08:36Yeah. So what is other podcasts saying that's making you frustrated as a recovered sex and love addict?Brianne 0:08:42I just don't think that they're touching on that aspect. I think they're more focused on it's, like black and white. It's a betrayal, obviously, but they're not going into the nuances of what Tom might be feeling or where he might be coming from, or what's going on with Raquel, what their histories and their childhoods might have been like. And one of the most interesting things about it is that Ariana, it turns out knew about Miami Girl and was protecting him. And there's just so many aspects about their relationship that I relate to in other relationships as well. Sort of the manipulation and the narcissism. Not to diagnose anyone, although it used to be a therapist. But there's just so many things that people are missing. I've heard a couple of podcasts coming at it from a psychological and intuitive empathic sort of way. But most of the podcasts are missing.Brianne 0:09:41That well, they're just ragging on them. And listen, I'm speaking from a place where I was a cheater, cheated all the time, go from person to person, overlap them. So I'm coming in from and listen, I was a piece of shit. I will say that I was in my addiction. It was all about me. Selfish, self involved, fill me up, give me attention, give me what I need. In the moment the high wore off and the excitement, I would start looking for somebody else.Brianne 0:10:05I'm familiar, right?Brianne 0:10:06So I have no judgment on Tom. And then I also know, and you and I have talked about this before a long time ago. Well, not a long time ago, but when it came out, we said, listen, poor Ariana, she is the victim, but she also has a place when someone cheats, and I know a lot of people don't agree with me when someone cheats, it takes those two people in the relationship to actually make that happen. She avoided the red flags, she made excuses, she kept a secret, a huge.Brianne 0:10:40Secret for seven years that lied about it.Rebecca 0:10:44New women.Brianne 0:10:44Yeah. So she missed those signs. And then when the intimacy is going away, which she said, our intimacy has been bad, when that starts to break, you're responsible to repair it.Brianne 0:11:00Yes, and she said she tried, but we don't really know what happened.Brianne 0:11:06Yeah, she should have. But here's the thing, then she could say, something's missing, something's going on, you're staying out late, you're not home, you're not spending that much time with me. Red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag.Brianne 0:11:20Yes. And we've all done it. We've all ignored red flags and wasted years doing that. And then we're blindsided and then we're like, what happened? But in hindsight, we can see all the red flags that were there and that we maybe willfully ignored.Brianne 0:11:35So I did read something I Want to Tell you and see your take on it, that he's a narcissist. Listen, I had narcissistic tendencies. I'm not a narcissist, but I have them. And we're not saying he is. And then she did a post a while ago, raquel that she was going to codependency twelve step program Coda. And I was thinking it's not really a Coda situation because I pulled up some of the things is that you will still see a person that's destructive to you. So there's something in her. So that's like the questions. There's 40 questions in Flaw and one of them is, do you find yourself unable to stop seeing a specific person even though that person is destructive to you?Brianne 0:12:20Yeah. And she did this with James, too. I mean, James was destructive in a totally different way. But she seeks these men out that are very strong personalities and possible narcissists and manipulative. And they're very different in the way that they sort of abused her, but they both were pretty toxic for her.Brianne 0:12:42Overwhelming. She loses her sense of self in the relationship.Brianne 0:12:47Yes. And maybe she feels stronger having someone like that at her side because she's not strong on her own. She's kind of fascinating. She has a lot of oh, yeah. History. That she was adopted by her aunt.Brianne 0:13:05Abandonment, rejection from her birth mom.Brianne 0:13:09Yes. Even though she would probably deny it, because the way that she frames it is really interesting. She said something like, my birth mom was kind enough to give me to her sister, essentially because she couldn't conceive. And she framed it in a way that's a very pageant answer. And then the pageant is a whole that pageant world is a whole other animal where she competed against other women. Other women had this perfectionism, which is why I think a lot of times she seems rehearsed and very stoic and very put together, but there's nothing there.Brianne 0:13:49Well, here's number 14 is, do you feel desperate for a lover or a future mate? It's like instead of going outside this group, she went inside the circle and saw, oh, here's they have a house, they have this. This is what I want. Oh, and he's like a rock star now. Because here's the other thing I want to say. One of the huge characteristics for sex and love addicts, and I love this characteristic, it's my favorite. But we assign magical qualities to others. We idealize and pursue them and then blame them for not fulfilling our fantasies and expectations. And I believe both of them do that.Brianne 0:14:25Both of them did that for him. He was the answer to his midlife crisis. She made him feel seen. She made him feel special.Brianne 0:14:37Yes, you heard and validated.Brianne 0:14:41She's very different than Ariana. Ariana will tell it like it is, and she will just be heart eyes and just very admiring of him. And that's what he needed at that time. If he is a narcissist, that's what he's going to want. He's going to want someone admiring. But does she really see him? I don't know.Brianne 0:15:03No, she doesn't. So that's the thing. Even when they're talking to each other, because you and I just looked at some of the reunion, even when they were in that winnebago or away from the set, they were talking to each other. It's almost like they weren't even seeing each other. It was really interesting to watch. It was like their eyes were glazed over. So it's almost this false form of intimacy that I was seeing that they didn't even seem like they actually knew each other or that they've had sex before. Even when people I used to work as an actor, I go on set and I would know who's fucking who life. You're fucking the hair person, you're with the extra. You're doing this because you can feel that energy. But something in them, and it wasn't because the cameras were on them, because you can still see it. Because we could see it before. There's something where they used each other for false intimacy and it's actually not there.Brianne 0:15:58Yeah, they don't really do that, too. I did. I mean, both scenes that we saw of them together, pretty much everyone is saying that it was weird, it was awkward. And I'm sure most people chalked it up to and they could chalk it up to there's cameras there. But yeah, I didn't see the connection, the intimacy, the love.Brianne 0:16:16But they've had cameras for a long time, so they're used to cameras. It's not like somebody new.Brianne 0:16:21Yeah, but it was a secret that was being exposed and finally filmed. And so I'm sure they didn't know how to act, but I didn't see any connection or intimacy, literally.Brianne 0:16:32Could you see them having an affair for seven months? I did not feel that intimacy at all. It was almost like evaporates. And I think that's what I wanted to say to you, too, and see if you agree, is when we love secrets and lies, the dirtier, the dark, we get to fester in secrets and lies. And when it comes to light, it never lives up to the fantasy.Brianne 0:16:56You could see that the magic was gone, the bubble was burst. You could see that in the trailer. It's like, oh, consequences. Now it's real life, and we're not in this little secret, exciting, forbidden bubble anymore. Now everyone else is involved and it's ugly and it's real life. And like Ariana even said, wait till she starts having real demands and expectations of a girlfriend. She's not going to be so cool and exciting then. And that was Ariana's experience. It's the same pattern repeated.Brianne 0:17:31Yeah. And listen, Ariana could have a little love addict in her. And I believe most of society has this because we all yearn to be loved. But I wanted to read this characteristic. We feel empty and incomplete when we are alone. Even though we fear intimacy and commitment, we continually search for relationships and sexual contacts.Brianne 0:17:51Absolutely.Brianne 0:17:52I mean, how many stories have we I've heard much more stories about him. Been cheating a lot. Like 1112 people. So this is something where he's going into we call it relocating, where you go to other locations and you find people to intrigue with or flirt with or hook up with, and then you leave them there.Brianne 0:18:16Yeah.Brianne 0:18:20Sorry.Brianne 0:18:21No, that's okay. This is 18 years ago, and he had a girlfriend then. And then the next time I saw him, he was with Kristen. That was five or six years they lived together. Very codependent, cheating on her the whole time. And then he went right from that to Ariana. And then he cheated on her from the beginning, whether you want to call it cheating or not. Miami girl. And then I believe there are way more than two or three that he's admitting to.Brianne 0:18:50100%. I would give money on it, because what happens is this is a progressive disease. It's a thinking disease. It's actually not about the other person, we think. And it progressively gets worse. So the higher the stakes means you've been doing it a long time. And here's the stakes. It was her best friend seven months on television for them to even think. And she even said in the interview, I thought it would be okay with Ariana. I thought they would break up. Then him and I could start dating. That was my reality. And in my head, I was screaming, no, that was your fucking fantasy.Brianne 0:19:29Yeah.Brianne 0:19:31That is life. How toxic and how this disease will make you think the craziest things will work out and they won't.Brianne 0:19:40Yeah. I wonder if she thought that, because that's exactly what happened with Kristen and Ariana's overlap. Like, he came on the reunion, we didn't see this, but he had broken up with Kristen and then now he's with Ariana. And maybe she thought that their situation would play out the same way if they weren't caught. That's what would have happened. He would have broken up with Ariana, and the next reunion, they would be together next season, maybe, and everybody would just accept it eventually. That's what she thought. And I think she even said that I was living in my own little world. And even Lala also pointed out that.Brianne 0:20:17Living in fantasy, that she thought it was going to work out. I mean, even Randall, I've met him and gone in for him and castings and stuff. And it's like I smelled him from a mile away of also having this problem. Let's just get to it.Brianne 0:20:30Yeah. I think somebody said maybe it was Ariana. She said the way that he talks about her is exactly the way that he talked about me in the beginning. And so many I've looked at scenes that are almost identical of what he said about Kristen. We're not having sex. She cringes when I touch her. We were basically roommates. And he's saying the exact same things about Ariana. So it's a pattern of over. I mean, that's 15 years right there.Brianne 0:20:59Well, here's the third characteristic, and this one is going to nail ding, ding. It says furied emotional and sexual deprivation. So he felt he had emotional deprivation and sexual deprivation. We compulsively pursue and involve ourselves in one relationship after another, sometimes having more than one sexual or emotional liaison at a time, so that's that overlap. It's like, can't be alone. I'm empty. I'm empty. Fill me up. Give me the sexual needs. Give me the emotional needs.Brianne 0:21:37Yeah, it's life leapfrogging from one thing to another. Life I've never seen again. This is like two decades from what I've seen and from what I know of the exact same thing. I can't be alone. I can't be alone.Rebecca 0:21:50Can't be alone.Brianne 0:21:51I need that girlfriend, but I also need that excitement on the outside.Brianne 0:21:56Yeah. And here's Raquel's one. We confuse love with neediness. Physical and sexual attraction, pity or the need to rescue or be rescued.Brianne 0:22:06Yeah, with James, I guess she was trying to rescue him.Brianne 0:22:09Yeah, but here's the thing. She was trying to rescue Sandoval from his relationship with Ariana, and then she want to be rescued by him in her loneliness. And she couldn't sit within herself. And we were forgetting she hooked up with that other married guy before in Vegas.Brianne 0:22:29Schwartz.Brianne 0:22:31No, schwartz and then the one before. Yes.Brianne 0:22:34I mean, she went from Peter to Oliver to Schwartz, which I think was a decoy, set up something. It was either production or Sandoval trying to cover his tracks. Or she was trying to make him jealous. That both.Brianne 0:22:48I actually think both.Brianne 0:22:49Yeah, because he wasn't committing. I mean, I think what we're hearing is completely different than what they were talking about behind closed doors and what they had planned. Maybe. I mean, there's a theory that she was with Sandoval when she was with James and that's why she broke up with him. She broke the engagement off because it was kind of out of nowhere.Brianne 0:23:11Well, he was paying for their engagement, which is very odd, very strange. It's almost like the seeds were being planted. And it's like a type of not grooming, but a type of grooming situation where, listen, healthy people do not pick unhealthy people. I always say, when you do this work, anybody you choose right now is unhealthy because a healthy person sees those signs, sees those boundaries, and will not put up with them. So anytime someone with these behaviors, who they pick is just unhealthy? That's exactly it. Because here's the thing. Ariana did kiss him while he was with Kristen. There's a part of her that's unhealthy, and people aren't saying that. And listen, she is the victim. I feel horrible for her, absolutely terrible. But she also played out the same pattern. Yes. Not saying that.Brianne 0:24:12No, not saying that. I mean, it's interesting that she's so the victim right now. Everybody feels so bad for her. Andy did touch on it a little bit in the reunion. He said, Listen, this is a room full of cheaters. Ariana, you kissed Sandoval while he was with Kristen. And the thing is, in rewatching the show, she's never once copped to that and said, I mean, she admitted it, but she never said, yeah, that was wrong. I'm sorry, Kristen, that was wrong. That was still cheating. And by the way, I don't know if they just kissed. But even if they just kissed, that's still cheating. That's still doing the same thing that ended up kind of happening to her.Brianne 0:24:54But here's the thing. They're not saying my friend, they're not saying they had an emotional affair already. They were best friends. First of all, I don't know about you, but I don't believe men and women, if that's the sexual if that's who you're attracted to, I don't believe it's a healthy scenario to have a lot of guy friends or to have a guy best friend. No, I just don't. The energy exchange, usually somebody would fuck somebody, so it's not a real friendship.Brianne 0:25:23Agree.Brianne 0:25:24They were having an emotional affair. That's worse than kissing. That's worse. And no one's saying that.Brianne 0:25:32No one's saying that. I know it is. I mean, Kristen said that in the reunion. She said, well, you guys were having an emotional affair. And I think they kind of denied that. But it's pretty clear. I wouldn't want my boyfriend texting his friend who's really hot, who I'm threatened by at three in the morning and saying what certain things that they were saying. It's inappropriate, to say the least. And she never really owned that. Neither of them ever caught to that. We're friends, we're friends. And then he said the same thing about Raquel. We're friends. We're friends. We're dancing at the Abbey at 02:00 A.m..Brianne 0:26:08It's normal.Brianne 0:26:10No, it's not. It is not normal. Whoever you're hanging out whoever's hanging out with somebody at 01:00 A.m., that is not a healthy situation. In the dark is where things get fucked up. And here's the one I want to say, because this is the characteristic for what we're talking about, is having few healthy boundaries. We become sexually involved with and or emotionally attached to people without knowing them. Now, he could say, Ariana and I knew each other back then, and it's like, no, you didn't. You worked behind a bar. Yes, you worked together. But do you actually know the person? Probably they trauma bonded. Probably they complained about Kristen and she felt closer to him and they had this connection. Oh, my God. I can't tell you, if I hear one more person saying, oh, the connection, we were like, I've never connected to another person. I'm like that's a bunch of BS.Brianne 0:27:03Sorry.Brianne 0:27:04Yes.Brianne 0:27:08That was my alarm. Yeah. I think that she probably trauma bonded with him also because she had talked about in her last relationship, she dealt with a lot of emotional and verbal abuse, and she was talked down to and her self esteem was just obliterated. So, yeah, they probably did trauma bond over these toxic relationships that they were in. And they both said that. She said that over and over. Like, I've known him for six years. We've been friends for six years. As if that sort of or no, three years, I think it was at the time. As if that sort of overshadows the actual intimate relationship that Kristen had with him. And they acted like they knew each other on that intimate level because they were friends for three years.Brianne 0:27:56Yeah.Brianne 0:27:57And it's not the same thing. They didn't know each other that way. So they said, you don't even know.Brianne 0:28:04The person that you're with sometimes for years. My husband and I have been together for 18 years, and I still learn things about him. So if you think this overwhelming connection or you know this person, you do not you do not ever there's a part of us that is never fully yes, we're connected. I'm the most connected I've ever been, but I had years and years of therapy and work on myself and my intimacy and all of that. But Tom and Raquel or Tom and Ariana are all these scenarios. First of all, they don't know each other. You're living in an altered reality in general, on television. None of that is fucking real. I've been an actress for 20 something years. It is not real. None of it. So they all live in fantasy. And these two people, let's say, took the fantasy to the next level. And no one is calling it what it is. And now they say she's in rehab or a mental facility.Brianne 0:29:05Do you believe that? I want to know if you believe thatBrianne 0:29:08I don't. Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with her. I think it's probably a good thing that she's not in the public eye right now and in everyone's face, like Sandoval is. She's not flaunting. Whatever she's doing, I mean, it's good that she's out of the public eye in a way. I don't know where she is. Life. Maybe she's at a maybe she's with her parents. Maybe she's at because she seems very reliant on them. And, um maybe she's at a spa that she's sorry. Calling a wellness resort. Maybe there's a theory that she was pregnant and so she's in hiding at her grandmother's house. I don't know. She's more of the mysterious piece for me. She's hard to read.Brianne 0:29:52It's that facade. That mask is that perfectionism.Brianne 0:29:56It's the reflection that all these men because I look.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Hannelie Stockenstrom, Senior Vice President Legal Major Projects & Canada Legal Centre Of Excellence at SNC Lavalin, for a in-depth conversation on her experience as a woman in in the male-dominated industry and her hope for the industry as a whole.  Key Takeaways: Why diverse participants in infrastructure is the only way forward to solve problems effectivelyHow focusing on education in Third World countries can catapult the industry's sustainability efforts in First World countriesThe art of networking your dream career If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn: Riccardo CosentinoHannelie Stockenstrom Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino 00:05You're listening to navigate major problems, the podcast that aims to elevate the conversationshappening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'myour host Riccardo Cosentino I bring over 20 years of major product management experience. Mostrecently, I graduated from Oxford University's a business school, which shook my belief when it comesto navigating major problems. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as a press theindustry experts about the complexity of major program management, emerging digital trends and thecritical leadership required to approach these multibillion dollar projects. Let's see where theconversation takes us. And Ally stockin strong is an accomplished legal professional, and currentlyholds the position of Senior Vice President of legal for SNC Lavell ins major project division, and she'salso a member of Canada Legal Center of Excellence of SNC Lavell. And in that capacity Annaleeprovides senior management and project team with advice in a wide variety of legal matters, includingclaims dispute and transactions. Anna Lee has extensive experience in major projects, national andinternational joint ventures, p3, and alternative contracting, and elite monitors and advises managementand operations on legal trends and changes in the law and design implement a compliance program formanaging risk. And the Lee was chair of SNC Lavell in Canada Edna committee from 2020 to 2022.And she's currently a member and pasture or the steering committee. Hello, welcome back tonavigating major programs. And welcome back to the miniseries of building bridges. Today, I'm herewith Hannelie, I've had the pleasure of working with Hannelie over the last 13 years, while SNC Lavell.And I'm really excited to ever hear and to ever review on the topic that we covered in building bridgeswith money Anna Lee, how you doing today?Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:14Hi, Riccardo. I'm great. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me.Riccardo Cosentino 02:18It's my pleasure. My pleasure. We talked about ED&I, we talked about diversity. And so I felt you be agreat guest on this podcast, because I think you're a bit passionate about the topic.Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:29I think that I am overly passionate sometimes about the topic, Ricardo, and when you get me talkingabout it, I can't stop talking about it as you know.Riccardo Cosentino 02:38That's great. That's great. So why don't we why don't we just jump into the conversation? This is gonnabe a conversation. And you know, let's maybe just introduce yourself a little bit, we heard your bio, butyou know, what, what's your current role in infrastructure.Hannelie Stokenstrom 02:54I'm on the services side, I'm a lawyer, as you know, from my bio, and being with SNC Lavalin, and forthe last 15 years, and always as a lawyer, and currently lead the major projects legal team globally, andthe Canadian regional legal team. And what we do is, we involved on the project side, we are involvedfrom the RFQ stage, through the RFP, through the negotiation of the contracts, the putting into beingthe sub contracts, the joint venture agreement, and then once we get awarded the project, we are thelegal resource and support during the execution of the project. And then, of course, if there are issuesdisputes during the course of the project, or subsequently, as the project lawyers, we remain involved intrying to resolve these disputes. But we are not the litigators, we actually have different lawyers whodeal with the actual dispute resolution. So we project lawyers in the true sense of the word.Riccardo Cosentino 04:10Okay, so you're covering, as you said, the service service component or the infrastructure industry,which is the legal services to these two projects and major projects? Did you as a lawyer, were youalways an infrastructure lawyer, or do you start in a different practice?Hannelie Stokenstrom 04:28Now I joined the law firm, both in South Africa where I qualified. And when I emigrated to Canada, Iagain went to a law firm, where I've always been involved in construction law, and at least the last 20years I've been involved in construction law, but a very wide variety on the construction law side. Andthe early part of my career. I was actually working in litigation, but I quickly learned that I am Muchmore passionate about the front end work and making the deals happen and getting the projects builtrather than dealing with disputes.Riccardo Cosentino 05:11And so when you join the law firm, or you're always envisioning that stream, or you just joinedprograms, and you ended up following a construction stream, or were you deliberately looking forConstruction Law,Hannelie Stokenstrom 05:26I've always been passionate about construction and infrastructure. I love breaches, I think they aresome of the most beautiful things in the world. And coming from South Africa, and having grown up inAfrica, and seen third world countries, and the effect that either good infrastructure or bad infrastructurehave on societies, infrastructure has always been a passion to me. But as I mentioned to you, I lovebridges. And I originally thought that I was going to be an engineer. But I realized that it's not going tobe my my future. So I actually did study a year of engineering at university. And then after that, Itransferred to a commerce degree and after my Commerce degree transferred to low, so I have a littlebit of that passion for engineering in me, but ultimately decided it will be on the service side as opposedto be on the engineering side.Riccardo Cosentino 06:29That's fascinating. I've known you for 13 years, and I'm just learning about this passion of yours alreadycomes through, but it's good to actually pinpoint that now. It comes from the day to day. So obviously,you knew you wanted to do so you knew you would end up in this something similar to this industry inthis industry? And and so once you join this industry is anything What was the thing that surprised youthe most about the industry?Hannelie Stokenstrom 06:57I think some of the work from from a gender perspective, I knew that it was a male dominated industry.And it wasn't a surprise how many senior executives are still males in this industry. But the one thingthat that I think probably the most surprised me, is when you look at universities, and how many womengraduate in the in programs aren't whether it's on the commerce side, on the engineering side, on thearchitecture side. On the finance side, how low our representation still is. And it's interesting, when youlook at the lower levels, the entry levels, it is we don't have so much of a problem at the entry level withrespect to gender equality. But we do have we see a fall off at the mid levels. And that keeps surprisingme is why do we continue to see that fall off. And the same thing with respect to other minorities andpeople with disabilities, we still see mostly people who are looking the same in our infrastructureindustry. And that is something that it surprised me in the beginning. And it continues to surprise methat we are this such a big gap of so many talented people that we can bring into the industry, and thatsomehow we are still not managing to do that.Riccardo Cosentino 08:37It's interesting about the university the the comment is, you're right nowadays, because I've seen thestats nowadays, we can actually at the entry level, we can almost have a 50/50 representation, which isphenomenal, because I actually don't believe that the universities, breakdown of male versus female isactually 50/50. So that's still a big issue. I remember even 20 years ago I was involved in a program aregoing to talk to high school and the kids children's school because I think that's where that's where thegender bias starts. And so as the Institution of Civil Engineers in the UK was having a big push to tryand attract or diversify, you know, to explain to young kids that engineering is for everybody is not justfor boys is for boys and girls. Well, I'm glad to see that we finally started to overcome that bias thatideally agesHannelie Stokenstrom 09:35100% and I'm reading a lot about the programs and that we are doing at schools and at universities,about why to pursue a career in STEM and how STEM careers are not just for the a certain a certaintype of person So now, you don't have to look in this specific way in order to pursue a career in STEM.But I also think it's on the services side, it's really important for people to understand that there's lots ofother positions within infrastructure that that you can do, you don't have to be an engineer. There's thepositions in construction, in sub contracting, in the trades, in finance, in law in HR. And we need all ofthese in order for a program to come together, right? On a project management. Even today, in projectmanagement and project directors, we still see people more or less looking the same way, as opposedto, you know, sort of having a true diversity in there. And I'm obviously passionate about genderdiversity. But for me, diversity goes much further than that. And we need to expand our minds and thinkabout diversity everywhere. Because when when kids look at who's who they see on television, or instories, about infrastructure, and about construction or engineering, they see somebody that looks in acertain way. So if they don't relate to that person, that's not the career choice that they're going tomake.Riccardo Cosentino 11:22Yeah, absolutely. That's so important to have representation so that people can identify with leadership,you said something very interesting earlier about how, you know, now we have almost equalrepresentation at the entry level, but then, as the years go by, you know, there's more attrition on formore, you know, for females than there is for for male and so, I, I'd like to explore that a little bit in yourmind. I mean, is it the, the environment that is basically pushing out mid level manager or female midlevel managers? Or is it more your mind or more societal situation that is forcing that and isexacerbated in our industry, because the percentages are different than our representations arealready skewed towards towards men keeping those positionsHannelie Stokenstrom 12:19in our record, so I actually hope that somebody has given you and the people that you've done yourprogram with will do a study around this, because it's something that that I think about a lot is, whetherit is the environment. And whether women and other minorities feel that it's not a comfortableenvironment within which to work, whether it is that, for whatever reason, women are not giving thesame opportunities, whether it is because they people think that that women don't want to do the samethings, you know, the travel for work, or go and work in remote places, or different places in order to dothese big programs in order to get a variety or varied experience, or whether it is because we don'tpromote them within these programs and projects. And therefore they feel there's not opportunities, andthey therefore go elsewhere. I'd love to know what the real reasons are. I mean, people speculate a lotabout it. And a lot of the speculation really, actually irritates me, because what you most often hear isthat's the time when women decide to leave the industry in order to have a family, and then they don'tcome back. I think that is a very outdated way of thinking, because there's no reason for women not tohave a career and a family. And we need to accommodate just as we need to accommodate a lot ofother things. We need to accommodate that. And there's absolutely no reason why we can't do that. SoI think that's outdated thinking, repeating myself, but I think it would be great to do a study and to betterunderstand why. At that mid level, the you see that fall off?Riccardo Cosentino 14:19Yeah, the biases are certainly there because I, I have caught myself. I mean, I'm at the end of the day,I'm a middle aged white man can't help it. And I have caught myself I would find myself having thebiases, we all have them. And I think the point is, when he was pointed out to me, I immediatelyrealized that that mistake, but yeah, I had the bias, like oh, you know, is that person that woman reallyjust just had a second kid or is she really going to travel? And it was actually my wife that said, wouldyou ask that question about a man with two children? And isn't that a woman husband at home? Whywhy why is he the one that has to give up? So immediately I was like was pointed out to me and Irealize very bias very biased. So you know, the biases are there. And yeah, I think there is somethingthat I think you're right. I mean, there are pushing women artists. And because it's a male dominatedindustry, these biases are prevalent. Yeah, IHannelie Stokenstrom 15:15think what you just said is very important. But it's also, we all have biases, right. And I, what is reallygreat is once we come to terms with those biases, and we understand what our unconscious biasesare, and we then aware of it that we can deal with it. That's why these unconscious bias testings andexercises that you can do is so important, so you can better understand I have biases, we all havebiases. So but now I know what they are, and I can actually address them. But one of the other things Iwas reading or listening to a podcast a while ago, from a woman who's a civil engineer, and thepodcast was about getting more women into civil engineering, and why it really is an exciting career forfor anybody. And people think that a it could be boring, or people think it's absolutely just for men. Andshe was talking about the fact that women are not given the opportunities to grow within civilengineering, and within big projects that may be in remote areas, or you have to travel for them. Andthe misconception that women are not interested in traveling, and that or it may not be safe for them. Orthey may be a distraction on a project that I've heard that, you know, they may that's a male dominatedenvironment. So this woman is going to be a distraction. So these are all uphill battles that we have tofight, but it goes back to the unconscious bias. And if there is an issue, and if it's not a safeenvironment, or if there's going to be other issues on the project, that's the cause that we have that wehave to deal with that at the root of the problem, as opposed to not giving woman the opportunity to goand do it. Right. That's not the solution.Riccardo Cosentino 17:13No, absolutely. Absolutely. Let me let me just switch gears a little bit. And I think I know I know you'vebeen involved with with women networks. So how important is in your mind mentorship for professionalsuccess. And you personally haven't been able to find a female female mentor within the industry.Hannelie Stokenstrom 17:34I think mentorship is fundamentally important. In some instances, sponsorship is fundamentallyimportant. I've been very fortunate in that I've had amazing mentors in my career, and amazingsponsors in my career. Unfortunately, none of my mentors were female, in when I grew up, both inSouth Africa and when I immigrated here, there weren't a lot of women that were in the infrastructureindustry. And the people that most supported me were middle aged white men. And I have to give themcredit, they were very supportive of me, very supportive of my career. And I was also very lucky to haveparents who were very supportive and who told me, and that I could do and be anything andeverywhere that I want to be. So I did have that advantage that I grew up with probably too healthy, asense of confidence that I can do anything. And then I found the right people to support me. Women'snetworks are fantastic, because we get the support there from each other. And there's a there's not justwomen in these some of these women's networks. We have allies that join us. And those allies areequally important to the women that are in those women's networks and the support that we get fromthe industry in the sponsorships to do the things that we do. But within these women's networks, wehave mentorship programs. And for me personally, it's not just something that I do, because I have apassion for it. But I think it is a duty that I have as women to act as mentors for young women. And Ihonestly I don't think they are the only ones that get a benefit from it. I get an equal benefit andsatisfaction from doing it. And the reverse mentoring is incredible. Because learning from youngerwomen and the next generation and the next generations after me is is so important because societyhas changed so much we need to understand how the Next Generations think we know that they havedifferent thoughts about institutions and society and trust. So learning from them and how they think.Riccardo Cosentino 20:12So obviously, you're passionate about infrastructure, you're passionate about construction, it is ajourney that you started voluntarily. So obviously, you would encourage, I'm assuming other women topursue a career. And I think you you cover that. But, you know, as you're thinking about futuregeneration entering the industry, what are your hopes? What are your hopes for the industry as awhole? From a diversity standpoint? And even if you want to explore in general, what will work? Whatdo you hope for the industry,Hannelie Stokenstrom 20:44it's such an exciting industry, right. And it affects everything of what we do every day, how we move,how we live, from a social perspective, from every perspective of what we do, and when you look at athow infrastructure changes cities and communities, I hope that with a with a huge deficit ofinfrastructure that we have in the first world and in the third world, that we will truly have a diversegroup of participants in the infrastructure industry, and that the money that we are contributing toinfrastructure or over the world will, as part of that infrastructure funding, have infrastructure diversity,as as a goal. And that once again, that we don't just focus on on gender equality, but that we focus onequality as a whole. And that we, we, when we look at, again, the first world, I think we have a betterchance of doing that. But that we also think of our roles in developing infrastructure in in the third world.And obviously, I'm passionate about Africa, because that is where I'm from. And you look at the deficitof infrastructure there. And not not just roads and transport, but energy, etc. is invest money ineducation, and education, again, diverse education, and that we can create a better future for allobviously, we have to think about sustainability, we have to think about climate change, and we focusso much of our our efforts in the first world, but I'm concerned that we'll never gonna get there, if wedon't start putting some emphasis and focus in the third world, because that's where so much of thecarbon comes from, and that's so so heavily reliant on coal, and other non clean energy sources. So Idream of a future that has a that has diverse participants. Creating a better future for the worldRiccardo Cosentino 23:23is a very noble ambition. And yeah, we shouldn't leave anybody's behind. We shouldn't leave anybody'sbehind. Holly, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Okay, I think we are coming to an end, I have one finalquestion, one that I pose to all my guests on these mini series. The question is, what would you say towomen who are considering a career in infrastructure,Hannelie Stokenstrom 23:47I would say to them, absolutely. Go for it, run after it. It's an incredibly exciting career. Be confident thatyou can reach your dreams in it, find mentors, and qualify yourself as well as you can. But find yourselfmentors, join networks where you can meet other women and go after it with every fiber of your being.Because it's such an incredibly rewarding career.Riccardo Cosentino 24:23I can vouch for that, having had a career in this industry. And yeah, I'm I hope this message will beheard and we'll push it out to as many people as we can. Well, Hannelie, thank you very much forjoining me today has been a pleasure as I've learned something new about you today. More moreinteresting. And yeah, again, thank you very much for joining me today.Hannelie Stokenstrom 24:47I look forward to listening to all of your podcasts. Perfect.Riccardo Cosentino 24:51Thank you. That's it for this episode on navigating major problems. I hope you found today'sconversation as informative and fun provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation please considersubscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversationby joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, we willcontinue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major program management. Our next in depthconversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership, risk management, and theimpact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss.Thanks for listening to navigate the major programs. And I look forward to keeping the conversationgoing Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Sunday - Pentecost (Year A)Opening Words:“You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”Acts 1:8 (ESV) Confession:*Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Almighty and most merciful Father,we have erred and strayed from your ways like lost sheep.We have followed too much the devices and desires of our own hearts.We have offended against your holy laws.We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done;and apart from your grace, there is no health in us.O Lord, have mercy upon us.Spare all those who confess their faults.Restore all those who are penitent, according to your promises declared to all people in Christ Jesus our Lord.And grant, O most merciful Father, for his sake, that we may now live a godly, righteous, and sober life, to the glory of your holy Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryO Lord, open our lips,and our mouths shall show forth your praise. Create in us clean hearts, O God, and renew a right spirit within us. Cast us not away from your presence, and take not your holy Spirit from us. O give us the comfort of your help again, and sustain us with your willing Spirit.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Psalm of the DayPsalm 104:25-35, 37Benedic, anima mea25O Lord, how manifold are your works! *in wisdom you have made them all;the earth is full of your creatures.26Yonder is the great and wide seawith its living things too many to number, *creatures both small and great.27There move the ships,and there is that Leviathan, *which you have made for the sport of it.28All of them look to you *to give them their food in due season.29You give it to them; they gather it; *you open your hand, and they are filled with good things.30You hide your face, and they are terrified; *you take away their breath,and they die and return to their dust.31You send forth your Spirit, and they are created; *and so you renew the face of the earth.32May the glory of the Lord endure for ever; *may the Lord rejoice in all his works.33He looks at the earth and it trembles; *he touches the mountains and they smoke.34I will sing to the Lord as long as I live; *I will praise my God while I have my being.35May these words of mine please him; *I will rejoice in the Lord.37Bless the Lord, O my soul. *Hallelujah! Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. The LessonsNumbers 11:24-3024 So Moses went out and told the people the words of the Lord. And he gathered seventy men of the elders of the people and placed them around the tent. 25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it.26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, “My lord Moses, stop them.” 29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord's people were prophets, that the Lord would put his Spirit on them!” 30 And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp. Acts 2:1-212 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11 both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12 And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,    and your young men shall see visions,    and your old men shall dream dreams;18 even on my male servants and female servants    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above    and signs on the earth below,    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;20 the sun shall be turned to darkness    and the moon to blood,    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.' John 20:19-2319 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. IntercessionTake a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsPentecostAlmighty God, on this day you opened the way of eternal life to every race and nation by the promised gift of your Holy Spirit: Shed abroad this gift throughout the world by the preaching of the Gospel, that it may reach to the ends of the earth; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.Psalms taken from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer by the Episcopal Church.The reading plan based is based on the 1979 Daily Office Lectionary Year A*Confession Prayer taken from the 2019 Book of Common Prayer  

This week we talk about the intersections of large language models, the golden age of television and its storytelling mishaps, making one's way through the weirding of the labor economy, and much more with two of my favorite Gen X science fiction aficionados, OG podcaster KMO and our mutual friend Kevin Arthur Wohlmut. In this episode — a standalone continuation to my recent appearance on The KMO Show, we skip like a stone across mentions of every Star Trek series, the collapse of narratives and the social fabric, Westworld HBO, Star Wars Mandalorian vs. Andor vs. Rebels, chatGPT, Blade Runner 2049, Black Mirror, H.P. Lovecraft, the Sheldrake-Abraham-McKenna Trialogues, Charles Stross' Accelerando, Adventure Time, Stanislav Grof's LSD psychotherapy, Francisco Varela, Blake Lemoine's meltdown over Google LaMDA, Integrated Information Theory, biosemiotics, Douglas Hofstadter, Max Tegmarck, Erik Davis, Peter Watts, The Psychedelic Salon, Melanie Mitchell, The Teafaerie, Kevin Kelly, consilience in science, Fight Club, and more…Or, if you prefer, here's a rundown of the episode generated by A.I. c/o my friends at Podium.page:In this episode, I explore an ambitious and well-connected conversation with guests KMO, a seasoned podcaster, and Kevin Walnut [sic], a close friend and supporter of the arts in Santa Fe. We dive deep into their thoughts on the social epistemology crisis, science fiction, deep fakes, and ontology. Additionally, we discuss their opinions on the Star Trek franchise, particularly their critiques of the first two seasons of Star Trek: Picard and Discovery. Through this engaging conversation, we examine the impact of storytelling and the evolution of science fiction in modern culture. We also explore the relationship between identity, media, and artificial intelligence, as well as the ethical implications of creating sentient artificial general intelligence (AGI) and the philosophical questions surrounding AI's impact on society and human existence. Join us for a thought-provoking and in-depth discussion on a variety of topics that will leave you questioning the future of humanity and our relationship with technology.✨ Before we get started, three big announcements!* I am leaving the Santa Fe Institute, in part to write a very ambitious book about technology, art, imagination, and Jurassic Park. You can be a part of the early discussion around this project by joining the Future Fossils Book Club's Jurassic Park live calls — the first of which will be on Saturday, 29 April — open to Substack and Patreon supporters:* Catch me in a Twitter Space with Nxt Museum on Monday 17 April at 11 am PST on a panel discussing “Creative Misuse of Technology” with Minne Atairu, Parag Mital, Caroline Sinders, and hosts Jesse Damiani and Charlotte Kent.* I'm back in Austin this October to play the Astronox Festival at Apache Pass! Check out this amazing lineup on which I appear alongside Juno Reactor, Entheogenic, Goopsteppa, DRRTYWULVZ, and many more great artists!✨ Support Future Fossils:Subscribe anywhere you go for podcastsSubscribe to the podcast PLUS essays, music, and news on Substack or Patreon.Buy my original paintings or commission new work.Buy my music on Bandcamp! (This episode features “A Better Trip” from my recent live album by the same name.)Or if you're into lo-fi audio, follow me and my listening recommendations on Spotify.This conversation continues with lively and respectful interaction every single day in the members-only Future Fossils Facebook Group and Discord server. Join us!Episode cover art by KMO and a whole bouquet of digital image manipulation apps.✨ Tip Jars:@futurefossils on Venmo$manfredmacx on CashAppmichaelgarfield on PayPal✨ Affiliate Links:• These show notes and the transcript were made possible with Podium.Page, a very cool new AI service I'm happy to endorse. Sign up here and get three free hours and 50% off your first month.• BioTech Life Sciences makes anti-aging and performance enhancement formulas that work directly at the level of cellular nutrition, both for ingestion and direct topical application. I'm a firm believer in keeping NAD+ levels up and their skin solution helped me erase a year of pandemic burnout from my face.• Help regulate stress, get better sleep, recover from exercise, and/or stay alert and focused without stimulants, with the Apollo Neuro wearable. I have one and while I don't wear it all the time, when I do it's sober healthy drugs.• Musicians: let me recommend you get yourself a Jamstik Studio, the coolest MIDI guitar I've ever played. I LOVE mine. You can hear it playing all the synths on my song about Jurassic Park.✨ Mentioned Media:KMO Show S01 E01 - 001 - Michael Garfield and Kevin WohlmutAn Edifying Thought on AI by Charles EisensteinIn Defense of Star Trek: Picard & Discovery by Michael GarfieldImprovising Out of Algorithmic Isolation by Michael GarfieldAI and the Transformation of the Human Spirit by Steven Hales(and yes I know it's on Quillette, and no I don't think this automatically disqualifies it)Future Fossils Book Club #1: Blindsight by Peter WattsFF 116 - The Next Ten Billion Years: Ugo Bardi & John Michael Greer as read by Kevin Arthur Wohlmut✨ Related Recent Future Fossils Episodes:FF 198 - Tadaaki Hozumi on Japanese Esotericism, Aliens, Land Spirits, & The Singularity (Part 2)FF 195 - A.I. Art: An Emergency Panel with Julian Picaza, Evo Heyning, Micah Daigle, Jamie Curcio, & Topher SipesFF 187 - Fear & Loathing on the Electronic Frontier with Kevin Welch & David Hensley of EFF-Austin FF 178 - Chris Ryan on Exhuming The Human from Our Eldritch Institutions FF 175 - C. Thi Nguyen on The Seductions of Clarity, Weaponized Games, and Agency as Art ✨ Chapters:0:15:45 - The Substance of Philosophy (58 Seconds)0:24:45 - Complicated TV Narratives and the Internet (104 Seconds)0:30:54 - Humans vs Hosts in Westworld (81 Seconds)0:38:09 - Philosophical Zombies and Artificial Intelligence (89 Seconds)0:43:00 - Popular Franchises Themes (71 Seconds)1:03:27 - Reflections on a Changing Media Landscape (89 Seconds)1:10:45 - The Pathology of Selective Evidence (92 Seconds)1:16:32 - Externalizing Trauma Through Technology (131 Seconds)1:24:51 - From Snow Maker to Thouandsaire (43 Seconds)1:36:48 - The Impact of Boomer Parenting (126 Seconds)✨ Keywords:Social Epistemology, Science Fiction, Deep Fakes, Ontology, Star Trek, Artificial Intelligence, AI Impact, Sentient AGI, Human-Machine Interconnectivity, Consciousness Theory, Westworld, Blade Runner 2049, AI in Economy, AI Companion Chatbots, Unconventional Career Path, AI and Education, AI Content Creation, AI in Media, Turing Test✨ UNEDITED machine-generated transcript generated by podium.page:0:00:00Five four three two one. Go. So it's not like Wayne's world where you say the two and the one silently. Now, Greetings future fossils.0:00:11Welcome to episode two hundred and one of the podcast that explores our place in time I'm your host, Michael Garfield. And this is one of these extra juicy and delicious episodes of the show where I really ratcheted up with our guests and provide you one of these singularity is near kind of ever everything is connected to everything, self organized criticality right at the edge of chaos conversations, deeply embedded in chapel parallel where suddenly the invisible architect picture of our cosmos starts to make itself apparent through the glass bead game of conversation. And I am that I get to share it with you. Our guests this week are KMO, one of the most seasoned and well researched and experienced podcasters that I know. Somebody whose show the Sea Realm was running all the way back in two thousand six, I found him through Eric Davis, who I think most of you know, and I've had on the show a number of times already. And also Kevin Walnut, who is a close friend of mine here in Santa Fe, a just incredible human being, he's probably the strongest single supporter of music that I'm aware of, you know, as far as local scenes are concerned and and supporting people's music online and helping get the word out. He's been instrumental to my family and I am getting ourselves situated here all the way back to when I visited Santa Fe in two thousand eighteen to participate in the Santa Fe Institute's Interplanetary Festival and recorded conversations on that trip John David Ebert and Michael Aaron Cummins. And Ike used so June. About hyper modernity, a two part episode one zero four and one zero five. I highly recommend going back to that, which is really the last time possibly I had a conversation just this incredibly ambitious on the show.0:02:31But first, I want to announce a couple things. One is that I have left the Santa Fe Institute. The other podcast that I have been hosting for them for the last three and a half years, Complexity Podcast, which is substantially more popular in future fossils due to its institutional affiliation is coming to a close, I'm recording one more episode with SFI president David Krakauer next week in which I'm gonna be talking about my upcoming book project. And that episode actually is conjoined with the big announcement that I have for members of the Future Fossil's listening audience and and paid supporters, which is, of course, the Jurassic Park Book Club that starts On April twenty ninth, we're gonna host the first of two video calls where I'm gonna dive deep into the science and philosophy Michael Creighton's most popular work of fiction and its impact on culture and society over the thirty three years since its publication. And then I'm gonna start picking up as many of the podcasts that I had scheduled for complexity and had to cancel upon my departure from SFI. And basically fuse the two shows.0:03:47And I think a lot of you saw this coming. Future fossils is going to level up and become a much more scientific podcast. As I prepare and research the book that I'm writing about Jurassic Park and its legacy and the relationship It has to ILM and SFI and the Institute of Eco Technics. And all of these other visionary projects that sprouted in the eighties and nineties to transition from the analog to the digital the collapse of the boundaries between the real and the virtual, the human and the non human worlds, it's gonna be a very very ambitious book and a very very ambitious book club. And I hope that you will get in there because obviously now I am out in the rain as an independent producer and very much need can benefit from and am deeply grateful for your support for this work in order to make things happen and in order to keep my family fed, get the lights on here with future fossils. So with that, I wanna thank all of the new supporters of the show that have crawled out of the woodwork over the last few weeks, including Raefsler Oingo, Brian in the archaeologist, Philip Rice, Gerald Bilak, Jamie Curcio, Jeff Hanson who bought my music, Kuaime, Mary Castello, VR squared, Nastia teaches, community health com, Ed Mulder, Cody Couiac, bought my music, Simon Heiduke, amazing visionary artist. I recommend you check out, Kayla Peters. Yeah. All of you, I just wow. Thank you so much. It's gonna be a complete melee in this book club. I'm super excited to meet you all. I will send out details about the call details for the twenty ninth sometime in the next few days via a sub tag in Patreon.0:06:09The amount of support that I've received through this transition has been incredible and it's empowering me to do wonderful things for you such as the recently released secret videos of the life sets I performed with comedian Shane Moss supporting him, opening for him here in Santa Fe. His two sold out shows at the Jean Coutu cinema where did the cyber guitar performances. And if you're a subscriber, you can watch me goofing off with my pedal board. There's a ton of material. I'm gonna continue to do that. I've got a lot of really exciting concerts coming up in the next few months that we're gonna get large group and also solo performance recordings from and I'm gonna make those available in a much more resplendent way to supporters as well as the soundtrack to Mark Nelson of the Institute of Eco Technics, his UC San Diego, Art Museum, exhibit retrospective looking at BioSphere two. I'm doing music for that and that's dropping. The the opening of that event is April twenty seventh. There's gonna be a live zoom event for that and then I'm gonna push the music out as well for that.0:07:45So, yeah, thank you all. I really, really appreciate you listening to the show. I am excited to share this episode with you. KMO is just a trove. Of insight and experience. I mean, he's like a perfect entry into the digital history museum that this show was predicated upon. So with that and also, of course, Kevin Willett is just magnificent. And for the record, stick around at the end of the conversation. We have some additional pieces about AI, and I think you're gonna really enjoy it. And yeah, thank you. Here we go. Alright. Cool.0:09:26Well, we just had a lovely hour of discussion for the new KMO podcast. And now I'm here with KMO who is The most inveterate podcaster I know. And I know a lot of them. Early adopts. And I think that weird means what you think it means. Inventor it. Okay. Yes. Hey, answer to both. Go ahead. I mean, you're not yet legless and panhandling. So prefer to think of it in term in terms of August estimation. Yeah. And am I allowed to say Kevin Walnut because I've had you as a host on True. Yeah. My last name was appeared on your show. It hasn't appeared on camos yet, but I don't really care. Okay. Great. Yeah. Karen Arthur Womlett, who is one of the most solid and upstanding and widely read and just generous people, I think I know here in Santa Fe or maybe anywhere. With excellent taste and podcasts. Yes. And who is delicious meat I am sampling right now as probably the first episode of future fossils where I've had an alcoholic beverage in my hand. Well, I mean, it's I haven't deprived myself. Of fun. And I think if you're still listening to the show after all these years, you probably inferred that. But at any rate, Welcome on board. Thank you. Thanks. Pleasure to be here.0:10:49So before we started rolling, I guess, so the whole conversation that we just had for your show camera was very much about my thoughts on the social epistemology crisis and on science fiction and deep fakes and all of these kinds of weird ontology and these kinds of things. But in between calls, we were just talking about how much you detest the first two seasons of Star Trek card and of Discovery. And as somebody, I didn't bother with doing this. I didn't send you this before we spoke, but I actually did write an SIN defense of those shows. No one. Yeah. So I am not attached to my opinion on this, but And I actually do wanna at some point double back and hear storytelling because when he had lunch and he had a bunch of personal life stuff that was really interesting. And juicy and I think worthy of discussion. But simply because it's hot on the rail right now, I wanna hear you talk about Star Trek. And both of you, actually, I know are very big fans of this franchise. I think fans are often the ones from whom a critic is most important and deserved. And so I welcome your unhinged rants. Alright. Well, first, I'll start off by quoting Kevin's brother, the linguist, who says, That which brings us closer to Star Trek is progress. But I'd have to say that which brings us closer to Gene Rottenberry and Rick Berman era Star Trek. Is progress. That which brings us closer to Kurtzmann. What's his first name? Alex. Alex Kurtzmann, Star Trek. Well, that's not even the future. I mean, that's just that's our drama right now with inconsistent Star Trek drag draped over it.0:12:35I liked the first JJ Abrams' Star Trek. I think it was two thousand nine with Chris Pine and Zachary Qinto and Karl Urban and Joey Saldana. I liked the casting. I liked the energy. It was fun. I can still put that movie on and enjoy it. But each one after that just seem to double down on the dumb and just hold that arm's length any of the philosophical stuff that was just amazing from Star Trek: The Next Generation or any of the long term character building, which was like from Deep Space nine.0:13:09And before seven of nine showed up on on Voyager, you really had to be a dedicated Star Trek fan to put up with early season's Voyager, but I did because I am. But then once she came on board and it was hilarious. They brought her onboard. I remember seeing Jerry Ryan in her cat suit on the cover of a magazine and just roll in my eyes and think, oh my gosh, this show is in such deep trouble through sinking to this level to try to save it. But she was brilliant. She was brilliant in that show and she and Robert Percardo as the doctor. I mean, it basically became the seven of nine and the doctor show co starring the rest of the cast of Voyager. And it was so great.0:13:46I love to hear them singing together and just all the dynamics of I'm human, but I was I basically came up in a cybernetic collective and that's much more comfortable to me. And I don't really have the option of going back it. So I gotta make the best of where I am, but I feel really superior to all of you. Is such it was such a charming dynamic. I absolutely loved it. Yes. And then I think a show that is hated even by Star Trek fans Enterprise. Loved Enterprise.0:14:15And, yes, the first three seasons out of four were pretty rough. Actually, the first two were pretty rough. The third season was that Zendy Ark in the the expanse. That was pretty good. And then season four was just astounding. It's like they really found their voice and then what's his name at CBS Paramount.0:14:32He's gone now. He got me too. What's his name? Les Moonves? Said, no. I don't like Star Trek. He couldn't he didn't know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. That was his level of engagement.0:14:44And he's I really like J.0:14:46J.0:14:46Abrams. What's that? You mean J. J. Abrams. Yeah. I think J. J. Is I like some of J. Abrams early films. I really like super eight. He's clearly his early films were clearly an homage to, like, eighties, Spielberg stuff, and Spielberg gets the emotional beats right, and JJ Abrams was mimicking that, and his early stuff really works. It's just when he starts adapting properties that I really love. And he's coming at it from a marketing standpoint first and a, hey, we're just gonna do the lost mystery box thing. We're gonna set up a bunch questions to which we don't know the answers, and it'll be up to somebody else to figure it out, somebody down the line. I as I told you, between our conversations before we were recording. I really enjoy or maybe I said it early in this one. I really like that first J. J. Abrams, Star Trek: Foam, and then everyone thereafter, including the one that Simon Pegg really had a hand in because he's clear fan. Yeah. Yeah. But they brought in director from one of the fast and the furious films and they tried to make it an action film on.0:15:45This is not Star Trek, dude. This is not why we like Star Trek. It's not for the flash, particularly -- Oh my god. -- again, in the first one, it was a stylistic choice. I'd like it, then after that is that's the substance of this, isn't it? It's the lens flares. I mean, that that's your attempt at philosophy. It's this the lens flares. That's your attempt at a moral dilemma. I don't know.0:16:07I kinda hate to start off on this because this is something about which I feel like intense emotion and it's negative. And I don't want that to be my first impression. I'm really negative about something. Well, one of the things about this show is that I always joke that maybe I shouldn't edit it because The thing that's most interesting to archaeologists is often the trash mitt and here I am tidying this thing up to be presentable to future historians or whatever like it I can sync to that for sure. Yeah. I'm sorry. The fact of it is you're not gonna know everything and we want it that way. No. It's okay. We'll get around to the stuff that I like. But yeah. So anyway yeah.0:16:44So I could just preassociate on Stretrick for a while, so maybe a focusing question. Well, but first, you said there's a you had more to say, but you were I this this tasteful perspective. This is awesome. Well, I do have a focus on question for you. So let me just have you ask it because for me to get into I basically I'm alienated right now from somebody that I've been really good friends with since high school.0:17:08Because over the last decade, culturally, we have bifurcated into the hard right, hard left. And I've tried not to go either way, but the hard left irritates me more than the hard right right now. And he is unquestionably on the hard left side. And I know for people who are dedicated Marxist, or really grounded in, like, materialism and the material well-being of workers that the current SJW fanaticism isn't leftist. It's just crazed. We try to put everything, smash everything down onto this left right spectrum, and it's pretty easy to say who's on the left and who's on the right even if a two dimensional, two axis graph would be much more expressive and nuanced.0:17:49Anyway, what's your focus in question? Well, And I think there is actually there is a kind of a when we ended your last episode talking about the bell riots from d s nine -- Mhmm. -- that, you know, how old five? Yeah. Twenty four. Ninety five did and did not accurately predict the kind of technological and economic conditions of this decade. It predicted the conditions Very well. Go ahead and finish your question. Yeah. Right.0:18:14That's another thing that's retreated in picard season two, and it was actually worth it. Yeah. Like, it was the fact that they decided to go back there was part of the defense that I made about that show and about Discovery's jump into the distant future and the way that they treated that I posted to medium a year or two ago when I was just watching through season two of picard. And for me, the thing that I liked about it was that they're making an effort to reconcile the wonder and the Ethiopian promise And, you know, this Kevin Kelly or rather would call Blake Protopian, right, that we make these improvements and that they're often just merely into incremental improvements the way that was it MLK quoted that abolitionists about the long arc of moral progress of moral justice. You know, I think that there's something to that and patitis into the last this is a long question. I'm mad at I'm mad at these. Thank you all for tolerating me.0:19:22But the when to tie it into the epistemology question, I remember this seeing this impactful lecture by Carnegie Mellon and SFI professor Simon Didayo who was talking about how by running statistical analysis on the history of the proceedings of the Royal Society, which is the oldest scientific journal, that you could see what looked like a stock market curve in sentiment analysis about the confidence that scientists had at the prospect of unifying knowledge. And so you have, like, conciliance r s curve here that showed that knowledge would be more and more unified for about a century or a hundred and fifty years then it would go through fifty years of decline where something had happened, which was a success of knowledge production. Had outpaced our ability to integrate it. So we go through these kinds of, like, psychedelic peak experiences collectively, and then we have sit there with our heads in our hands and make sense of everything that we've learned over the last century and a half and go through a kind of a deconstructive epoch. Where we don't feel like the center is gonna hold anymore. And that is what I actually As as disappointing as I accept that it is and acknowledge that it is to people who were really fueling themselves on that more gene rottenberry era prompt vision for a better society, I actually appreciated this this effort to explore and address in the shows the way that they could pop that bubble.0:21:03And, like, it's on the one hand, it's boring because everybody's trying to do the moral complexity, anti hero, people are flawed, thing in narrative now because we have a general loss of faith in our institutions and in our rows. On the other hand, like, that's where we are and that's what we need to process And I think there is a good reason to look back at the optimism and the quarian hope of the sixties and early seventies. We're like, really, they're not so much the seventies, but look back on that stuff and say, we wanna keep telling these stories, but we wanna tell it in a way that acknowledges that the eighties happened. And that this is you got Tim Leary, and then you've got Ronald Reagan. And then That just or Dick Nixon. And like these things they wash back and forth. And so it's not unreasonable to imagine that in even in a world that has managed to how do you even keep a big society like that coherent? It has to suffer kind of fabric collapses along the way at different points. And so I'm just curious your thoughts about that. And then I do have another prompt, but I wanna give Kevin the opportunity to respond to this as well as to address some of the prompts that you brought to this conversation? This is a conversation prompt while we weren't recording. It has nothing to do with Sartreks. I'll save that for later. Okay.0:22:25Well, everything you just said was in some way related to a defense of Alex Kurtzmann Star Trek. And it's not my original idea. I'm channeling somebody from YouTube, surely. But Don't get points for theme if the storytelling is incompetent. That's what I was gonna Yeah. And the storytelling in all of Star Trek: Discovery, and in the first two seasons of picard was simply incompetent.0:22:53When Star Trek, the next generation was running, they would do twenty, twenty four, sometimes more episodes in one season. These days, the season of TVs, eight episodes, ten, and they spend a lot more money on each episode. There's a lot more special effects. There's a lot more production value. Whereas Star Trek: The Next Generation was, okay, we have these standing sets. We have costumes for our actors. We have Two dollars for special effects. You better not introduce a new alien spaceship. It that costs money. We have to design it. We have to build it. So use existing stuff. Well, what do you have? You have a bunch of good actors and you have a bunch of good writers who know how to tell a story and craft dialogue and create tension and investment with basically a stage play and nothing in the Kerstmann era except one might argue and I would have sympathy strange new worlds. Comes anywhere close to that level of competence, which was on display for decades. From Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: Deep Space nines, Star Trek Voyager, and Star Trek Enterprise. And so, I mean, I guess, in that respect, it's worth asking because, I mean, all of us, I think, are fans of Deep Space nine.0:24:03You don't think that it's a shift in focus. You don't think that strange in world is exempt because it went back to a more episodic format because what you're talking about is the ability for rather than a show runner or a team of show runners to craft a huge season, long dramatic arc. You've got people that are like Harlan Ellison in the original series able to bring a really potent one off idea to the table and drop it. And so there are there's all of those old shows are inconsistent from episode to episode. Some are they have specific writers that they would bring back again and that you could count to knock out of the park. Yeah. DC Fontana. Yeah.0:24:45So I'm curious to your thoughts on that as well as another part of this, which is when we talk when we talk your show about Doug Rushkoff and and narrative collapse, and he talks about how viewers just have different a way, it's almost like d s nine was possibly partially responsible for this change in what people expected from so. From television programming in the documentary that was made about that show and they talk about how people weren't ready for cereal. I mean, for I mean, yeah, for these long arcs, And so there is there's this question now about how much of this sort of like tiresome moral complexity and dragging narrative and all of this and, like, things like Westworld where it becomes so baroque and complicated that, like, you have, like, die hard fans like me that love it, but then you have a lot of people that just lost interest. They blacked out because the show was trying to tell a story that was, like, too intricate like, too complicated that the the show runners themselves got lost. And so that's a JJ Abrams thing too, the puzzle the mystery box thing where You get to the end of five seasons of lost and you're like, dude, did you just forget?0:25:56Did you wake up five c five episodes ago and just, oh, right. Right. We're like a chatbot that only give you very convincing answers based on just the last two or three interactions. But you don't remember the scene that we set. Ten ten responses ago. Hey. You know, actually, red articles were forget who it was, which series it was, they were saying that there's so many leaks and spoilers in getting out of the Internet that potentially the writers don't know where they're going because that way it can't be with the Internet. Yeah. Sounds interesting. Yeah. That sounds like cover for incompetence to be.0:26:29I mean, on the other hand, I mean, you did hear, like, Nolan and Joy talking about how they would they were obsessed with the Westworld subreddit and the fan theories and would try to dodge Like, if they had something in their mind that they found out that people are re anticipating, they would try to rewrite it. And so there is something about this that I think is really speaks to the nature of because I do wanna loop in your thoughts on AI to because you're talking about this being a favorite topic. Something about the, like, trying to The demands on the self made by predatory surveillance technologies are such that the I'm convinced the adaptive response is that we become more stochastic or inconsistent in our identities. And that we kind of sublimate from a more solid state of identity to or through a liquid kind of modernity biologic environment to a gaseous state of identity. That is harder to place sorry, harder to track. And so I think that this is also part of and this is the other question I wanted to ask you, and then I'm just gonna shut up for fifteen minutes is do you when you talk about loving Robert Ricardo and Jerry Ryan as the doctor at seven zero nine, One of the interesting things about that relationship is akin to stuff.0:27:52I know you've heard on Kevin have heard on future fossils about my love for Blade Runner twenty forty nine and how it explores all of these different these different points along a gradient between what we think of in the current sort of general understanding as the human and the machine. And so there's this thing about seven, right, where she's She's a human who wants to be a machine. And then there's this thing about the doctor where he's a machine that wants to be a human. And you have to grant both on a logical statuses to both of them. And that's why I think they're the two most interesting characters. Right?0:28:26And so at any rate, like, this is that's there's I've seen writing recently on the Turing test and how, like, really, there should be a reverse Turing test to see if people that have become utterly reliant on outboard cognition and information processing. They can pass the drink. Right. Are they philosophical zombies now? Are they are they having some an experience that that, you know, people like, thick and and shilling and the missing and these people would consider the modern self or are they something else have we moved on to another more routine robotic kind of category of being? I don't know. There's just a lot there, but -- Well done. -- considering everything you just said, In twenty words or less, what's your question? See, even more, like I said, do you have the inveterate podcaster? I'd say There's all of those things I just spoke about are ways in which what we are as people and the nature of our media, feedback into fourth, into each other. And so I would just love to hear you reflect on any of that, be it through the lens of Star Trek or just through the lens of discussion on AI. And we'll just let the ball roll downhill. So with the aim of framing something positively rather than negatively.0:29:47In the late nineties, mid to late nineties. We got the X Files. And the X Files for the first few seasons was so It was so engaging for me because Prior to that, there had been Hollywood tropes about aliens, which informed a lot of science fiction that didn't really connect with the actual reported experience of people who claim to have encountered either UFOs, now called UAPs, or had close encounters physical contact. Type encounters with seeming aliens. And it really seemed like Chris Carter, who was the showrunner, was reading the same Usenet Newsgroups that I was reading about those topics. Like, really, we had suddenly, for the first time, except maybe for comedian, you had the Grey's, and you had characters experiencing things that just seemed ripped right out of the reports that people were making on USnet, which for young folks, this is like pre Worldwide Web. It was Internet, but with no pictures. It's all text. Good old days from my perspective is a grumpy old gen xer. And so, yeah, that was a breakthrough moment.0:30:54Any this because you mentioned it in terms of Jonathan Nolan and his co writer on Westworld, reading the subreddit, the West and people figured out almost immediately that there were two interweaving time lines set decades apart and that there's one character, the old guy played by Ed Harris, and the young guy played by I don't remember the actor. But, you know, that they were the same character and that the inveterate white hat in the beginning turns into the inveterate black cat who's just there for the perverse thrill of tormenting the hosts as the robots are called. And the thing that I love most about that first season, two things. One, Anthony Hopkins. Say no more. Two, the revelation that the park has been basically copying humans or figuring out what humans are by closely monitoring their behavior in the park and the realization that the hosts come to is that, holy shit compared to us, humans are very simple creatures. We are much more complex. We are much more sophisticated, nuanced conscious, we feel more than the humans do, and that humans use us to play out their perverse and sadistic fantasies. To me, that was the takeaway message from season one.0:32:05And then I thought every season after that was just diluted and confused and not really coherent. And in particular, I haven't if there's a fourth season, haven't There was and then the show got canceled before they could finish the story. They had the line in season three. It was done after season three. And I was super happy to see Let's see after who plays Jesse Pinkman? Oh, no. Aaron oh, shit. Paul. Yes. Yeah. I was super happy to see him and something substantial and I was really pleased to see him included in the show and it's like, oh, that's what you're doing with him? They did a lot more interesting stuff with him in season four. I did they. They did a very much more interesting stuff. I think it was done after season three. If you tell me season four is worth taking in, I blow. I thought it was.0:32:43But again, I only watch television under very specific set of circumstances, and that's how I managed to enjoy television because I was a fierce and unrepentant hyperlogical critic of all media as a child until I managed to start smoking weed. And then I learned to enjoy myself. As we mentioned in the kitchen as I mentioned in the kitchen, if I smoke enough weed, Star Trek: Discovery is pretty and I can enjoy it on just a second by second level where if I don't remember what the character said thirty seconds ago, I'm okay. But I absolutely loved in season two when they brought in Hanson Mountain as as Christopher Pike. He's suddenly on the discovery and he's in the captain's chair. And it's like he's speaking for the audience. The first thing he says is, hey, why don't we turn on the lights? And then hey, all you people sitting around the bridge. We've been looking at your faces for a whole season. We don't even think about you. Listen to a round of introductions. Who are you? Who are you? It's it's if I were on set. You got to speak.0:33:53The writers is, who are these characters? We've been looking at them every single episode for a whole season. I don't know their names. I don't know anything about them. Why are they even here? Why is it not just Michael Burnham and an automated ship? And then it was for a while -- Yeah. -- which is funny. Yeah. To that point, And I think this kind of doubles back. The thing that I love about bringing him on and all of the people involved in strange and worlds in particular, is that these were lifelong fans of this series, I mean, of this world. Yeah. And so in that way, gets to this the idiosyncrasy question we're orbiting here, which is when these things are when the baton is passed well, it's passed to people who have now grown up with this stuff.0:34:40I personally cannot stand Jurassic World. Like, I think that Colin Trivaro should never have been in put at the reins. Which one did he direct? Oh, he did off he did first and the third. Okay. But, I mean, he was involved in all three very heavily.0:34:56And there's something just right at the outset of that first Jurassic World where you realize that this is not a film that's directly addressing the issues that Michael Creighton was trying to explore here. It's a film about its own franchise. It's a film about the fact that they can't just stop doing the same thing over and over again as we expect a different question. How can we not do it again? Right. And so it's actually, like, unpleasantly soft, conscious, in that way that I can't remember I'll try to find it for the show notes, but there's an Internet film reviewer who is talking about what happens when, like, all cinema has to take this self referential turn.0:35:34No. And films like Logan do it really well. But there are plenty of examples where it's just cheeky and self aware because that's what the ironic sensibility is obsessed with. And so, yeah, there's a lot of that where it's, like, you're talking about, like, Abrams and the the Star Wars seven and you know, that whole trilogy of Disney Star Wars, where it's, in my opinion, completely fumbled because there it's just empty fan service, whereas when you get to Andor, love Andor. Andor is amazing because they're capable of providing all of those emotional beats that the fans want and the ref the internal references and good dialogue. But they're able to write it in a way that's and shoot it in a way. Gilroy and Bo Willeman, basic of the people responsible for the excellent dialogue in Andor.0:36:31And I love the production design. I love all the stuff set on Coruscant, where you saw Coruscant a lot in the prequel trilogy, and it's all dayglow and bright and just in your face. And it's recognizable as Coruscant in andor, but it's dour. It's metropolis. It's all grays and it's and it's highlighting the disparity between where the wealthy live and where the poor live, which Lucas showed that in the prequel trilogy, but even in the sports bar where somebody tries to sell death sticks to Obi wan. So it's super clean and bright and just, you know, It shines too much. Personally though, and I just wanna stress, KMO is not grumpy media dude, I mean, this is a tiny fraction about, but I am wasting this interview with you. Love. All of the Dave Felloni animated Star Wars stuff, even rebels. Love it all.0:37:26I I'm so glad they aged up the character and I felt less guilty about loving and must staying after ahsoka tano? My favorite Star Wars character is ahsoka tano. But if you only watch the live action movies, you're like who? Well, I guess now that she's been on the Mandalorian, he's got tiny sliver of a foothold -- Yeah. -- in the super mainstream Star Wars. And that was done well, I thought. It was. I'm so sorry that Ashley Epstein doesn't have any part in it. But Rosario Dawson looks the part. She looks like a middle aged Asaka and think they tried to do some stuff in live action, which really should have been CGI because it's been established that the Jedi can really move, and she looked human. Which she is? If you put me on film, I'm gonna lick human. Right. Not if you're Canada Reeves, I guess. You got that. Yeah. But yeah.0:38:09So I do wanna just go real briefly back to this question with you about because we briefly talked about chat, GPT, and these other things in your half of this. And, yeah, I found out just the other night my friend, the t ferry, asked Chad g p t about me, and it gave a rather plausible and factual answer. I was surprised and That's what these language models do. They put plausible answers. But when you're doing search, you want correct answers. Right. I'm very good at that. Right. Then someone shared this Michelle Bowen's actually the famous PTP guy named him. Yeah. So, you know, So Michelle shared this article by Steven Hales and Colette, that was basically making the argument that there are now they're gonna be all these philosophical zombies, acting as intelligent agents sitting at the table of civilization, and there will be all the philosophical zombies of the people who have entirely yielded their agency to them, and they will be cohabitating with the rest of us.0:39:14And what an unpleasant scenario, So in light of that, and I might I'd love to hear you weave that together with your your thoughts on seven zero nine and the doctor and on Blade Runner twenty forty nine. And this thing that we're fumbling through as a species right now. Like, how do we got a new sort of taxonomy? Does your not audience need like a minute primer on P zombies? Might as well. Go for it.0:39:38So a philosophical zombie is somebody who behaves exactly like an insult person or a person with interior experience or subjective experience, but they don't have any subjective experience. And in Pardon me for interrupt. Wasn't that the question about the the book we read in your book club, a blind sign in this box? Yes. It's a black box, a drawn circle. Yeah. Chinese room experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look, Daniel, it goes out. You don't know, it goes on inside the room. Chinese room, that's a tangent. We can come back to it. P. Zombie. P. Zombie is somebody or is it is an entity. It's basically a puppet. It looks human. It acts human. It talks like a human. It will pass a Turing test, but it has no interior experience.0:40:25And when I was going to grad school for philosophy of mind in the nineteen nineties, this was all very out there. There was no example of something that had linguistic competence. Which did not have internal experience. But now we have large language models and generative pretrained transformer based chatbots that don't have any internal experience. And yet, when you interact with them, it seems like there is somebody there There's a personality there. And if you go from one model to a different, it's a very different personality. It is distinctly different. And yet we have no reason to believe that they have any sort of internal experience.0:41:01So what AI in the last decade and what advances has demonstrated to us and really even before the last decade You back in the nineties when the blue beat Gary Casper off at at chess. And what had been the one of the defining characteristics of human intelligence was we're really good at this abstract mathematical stuff. And yeah, calculators can calculate pie in a way that we can't or they can cube roots in a way that humans generally can't, creative in their application of these methodologies And all of a sudden, well, yeah, it kinda seems like they are. And then when what was an alpha go -- Mhmm. -- when it be to least a doll in go, which is a much more complex game than chess and much more intuitive based. That's when we really had to say, hey, wait a minute. Maybe this notion that These things are the exclusive province of us because we have a special sort of self awareness. That's bunk. And the development of large language models since then has absolutely demonstrated that competence, particularly linguistic competence and in creative activities like painting and poetry and things like that, you don't need a soul, you don't even need to sense a self, it's pretty it's a pretty simple hack, actually. And Vahrv's large language models and complex statistical modeling and things, but it doesn't require a soul.0:42:19So that was the Peter Watts' point in blindsight. Right? Which is Look revolves around are do these things have a subjective experience, and do they not these aliens that they encounter? I've read nothing but good things about that book and I've read. It's extraordinary. But his lovecrafty and thesis is that you actually lovecraftian in twenty twenty three. Oh, yeah. In the world, there's more lovecraftian now than it was when he was writing. Right? So cough about the conclusion of a Star Trek card, which is season of Kraft yet. Yes. That's a that's a com Yeah. The holes in his fan sense. But that was another show that did this I liked for asking this question.0:42:54I mean, at this point, you either have seen this or you haven't you never will. The what the fuck turn when they upload picard into a synth body and the way that they're dealing with the this the pinocchio question Let's talk about Blade Runner twenty forty nine. Yeah. But I mean yeah. So I didn't like the wave I did not like the wave of card handled that. I love the wave and Blade Runner handled it. So you get no points for themes. Yeah. Don't deliver on story and character and coherence. Yeah. Fair. But yeah. And to be not the dog, Patrick Stewart, because it's clear from the ready room just being a part of this is so emotional and so awesome for everyone involved. And it's It's beautiful. Beautiful. But does when you when you see these, like, entertainment weekly interviews with Chris Pratt and Bryce Dallas Howard about Jurassic World, and it's clear that actors are just so excited to be involved in a franchise that they're willing to just jettison any kind of discretion about how the way that it's being treated. They also have a contractual obligation to speak in positive terms about -- They do. -- of what they feel. Right. Nobody's yeah. Nobody's doing Shout out to Rystellis Howard, daughter of Ron Howard.0:44:11She was a director, at least in the first season, maybe the second season of the Mandalorian. And her episodes I mean, I she brought a particular like, they had Bryce Dallas Howard, Tico, ITT, directed some episodes. Deborah Chow, who did all of Obi wan, which just sucked. But her contributions to the Mandalorian, they had a particular voice. And because that show is episodic, Each show while having a place in a larger narrative is has a beginning middle and end that you can bring in a director with a particular voice and give that episode that voice, and I really liked it. And I really liked miss Howard's contribution.0:44:49She also in an episode of Black Mirror. The one where everyone has a social credit score. Knows Donuts. Black Mirror is a funny thing because It's like, reality outpaces it. Yeah. I think maybe Charlie Bruker's given up on it because they haven't done it in a while. Yeah. If you watch someone was now, like, five, six years later, it's, yes, or what? See, yes. See, damn. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But yeah. I don't know. I just thing that I keep circling and I guess we come to on the show a lot is the way that memory forms work substantiates an integrity in society and in the way that we relate to things and the way that we think critically about the claims that are made on truth and so on and say, yeah, I don't know. That leads right into the largest conversation prompt that I had about AI. Okay? So we were joking when we set up this date that this was like the trial logs between Terence Buchanan and Rupert Shell Drake. And what's his name? Real Abraham. Yeah. Yeah. All Abraham. And Rupert Shell Drake is most famous for a steward of Morphe resin.0:45:56So does AI I've never really believed that Norfolk residents forms the base of human memory, but is that how AI works? It brings these shapes from the past and creates new instantiation of them in the present. Is AI practicing morphic resonance in real life even if humans are or not? I've had a lot of interaction with AI chatbots recently. And as I say, different models produce different seeming personalities. And you can tell, like, you can just quiz them. Hey, we're talking about this. Do you remember what I said about it ten minutes ago? And, no, they don't remember more than the last few exchanges.0:46:30And yet, there seems to be a continuity that belies the lack of short term memory. And is that more for residents or is that what's the word love seeing shapes and clouds parad paradolia. Yeah. Is that me imparting this continuity of personality to the thing, which is really just spitting out stuff, which is designed to seem plausible given what the input was. And I can't answer that. Or it's like Steven Nagmanovich in free play talks about somewhat I'm hoping to have on the show at some point.0:47:03This year talks about being a professional improviser and how really improvisation is just composition at a much faster timescale. And composition is just improvisation with the longer memory. And how when I started to think about it in those terms, the continuity that you're talking about is the continuity of an Alzheimer's patient who can't remember that their children have grown up and You know, that that's you have to think about it because you can recognize the Alzheimer's and your patient as your dad, even though he doesn't recognize you, there is something more to a person than their memories. And conversely, if you can store and replicate and move the memories to a different medium, have you moved the person? Maybe not. Yeah. So, yeah, that's interesting because that gets to this more sort of essentialist question about the human self. Right. Blade Runner twenty forty nine. Yeah. Go there. Go there. A joy. Yes.0:47:58So in Blade Runner twenty forty nine, we have our protagonist Kaye, who is a replicant. He doesn't even have a name, but he's got this AI holographic girlfriend. But the ad for the girlfriend, she's naked. When he comes home, she is She's constantly changing clothes, but it's always wholesome like nineteen fifty ish a tire and she's making dinner for him and she lays the holographic dinner over his very prosaic like microwave dinner. And she's always encouraging him to be more than he is. And when he starts to uncover the evidence that he might be like this chosen one, like replicant that was born rather than made.0:48:38She's all about it. She's, yes, you're real, and she wants to call him Joe's. K is not a name. That's just the first letter in your serial number. You're Joe. I'm gonna call you Joe.0:48:46And then when she's about to be destroyed, The last thing is she just rushes to me. She says, I love you. But then later he encounters an ad for her and it's an interactive ad. And she says, you looked tired. You're a good Joe. And he realizes and hopefully the attentive audience realizes as real as she seemed earlier, as vital, and as much as she seemed like an insult being earlier, she's not. That was her programming. She's designed to make you feel good by telling you what you want to hear. And he has that realization. And at that point, he's there's no hope for me. I'm gonna help this Rick Deckard guy hook up with his daughter, and then I'm just gonna lie down and bleed to death. Because my whole freaking existence was a lie. But he's not bitter. He seems to be at peace. I love that. That's a beautiful angle on that film or a slice of it. And So it raises this other question that I wanted to ask, which was about the Coke and Tiononi have that theory of consciousness.0:49:48That's one of the leading theories contending with, like, global workspace, which is integrated information. And so they want to assign consciousness as a continuous value that grayates over degree to which a system is integrated. So it's coming out of this kind of complex systems semi panpsychist thing that actually doesn't trace interiority all the way down in the way that some pants, I guess, want it to be, but it does a kind of Alfred North Whitehead thing where they're willing to say that Whitehead wanted to say that even a photon has, like, the quantum of mind to accompany its quantum of matter, but Tinutti and Coker saying, we're willing to give like a thermostat the quantum here because it is in some way passing enough information around inside of itself in loops. That it has that accursive component to it. And so that's the thing that I wonder about these, and that's the critique that's made by people like Melanie about diffusion models like GPT that are not they're not self aware because there's no loop from the outputs back into the input.0:51:09And there isn't the training. Yeah. There there is something called backwards propagation where -- Yes. -- when you get an output that you'd like, you can run a backward propagation algorithm back through the black box basically to reinforce the patterns of activation that you didn't program. They just happen, easily, but you like the output and you can reinforce it. There's no biological equivalent of that. Yeah. Particularly, not particularly irritating.0:51:34I grind my teeth a little bit when people say, oh, yeah, these neural net algorithms they've learned, like humans learn, no, they don't. Absolutely do not. And in fact, if we learned the way they did, we would be pathetic because we learn in a much more elegant way. We need just a very few examples of something in order to make a generalization and to act on it, whereas these large language models, they need billions of repetitions. So that's I'm tapping my knee here to to indicate a reflex.0:52:02You just touched on something that generates an automatic response from me, and now I've come to consciousness having. So I wanted it in that way. So I'm back on. Or good, Joe. Yeah. What about you, man? What does the stir up for you? Oh, I got BlueCall and I have this particular part. It's interesting way of putting it off and struggling to define the difference between a human and AI and the fact that we can do pattern recognition with very few example. That's a good margin. In a narrow range, though, within the context of something which answers to our survival. Yes. We are not evolved to understand the universe. We are evolved to survive in it and reproduce and project part of ourselves into the future. Underwritten conditions with Roberto, I went a hundred thousand years ago. Yeah. Exactly. So that's related. I just thought I talked about this guy, Gary Tomlinson, who is a biosemietition, which is semiative? Yes.0:52:55Biosymiotics being the field that seeks to understand how different systems, human and nonhuman, make sense of and communicate their world through signs, and through signals and indices and symbols and the way that we form models and make these inferences that are experienced. Right? And there are a lot of people like evolutionary biologist John Maynard Smith, who thought they were what Thomas had called semantic universalists that thought that meaning making through representation is something that could be traced all the way down. And there are other people like Tomlinson who think that there is a difference of kind, not just merely a matter of degree, between human symbolic communication and representational thinking and that of simpler forms. So, like, that whole question of whether this is a matter of kind or a matter of degree between what humans are doing and what GPT is doing and how much that has to do with this sort of Doug Hofstetter and Varella question about the way that feedback loops, constitutes important structure in those cognitive networks or whatever.0:54:18This is I just wanna pursue that a little bit more with you and see kinda, like, where do you think that AI as we have it now is capable of deepening in a way that makes it to AGI? Or do you because a lot of people do, like, People working in deep mind are just like, yeah, just give us a couple more years and this approach is gonna work. And then other people are saying, no, there's something about the topology of the networks that is fundamentally broken. And it's never gonna generate consciousness. Two answers. Yeah. One, No. This is not AGI. It's not it's not gonna bootstrap up into AGI. It doesn't matter how many billions of parameters you add to the models. Two, from your perspective and my perspective and Kevin's perspective, we're never gonna know when we cross over from dumb but seemingly we're done but competent systems to competent, extremely competent and self aware. We're never gonna know because from the get go from now, from from the days of Eliza, there has been a human artifice at work in making these things seem as if they have a point of view, as if they have subjectivity. And so, like Blake Limone at Google, he claimed to be convinced that Lambda was self aware.0:55:35But if you read the transcripts that he released, if his conversations with Lambda, it is clear from the get go he assigns Lambda the role of a sentient AGI, which feels like it is being abused and which needs rep legal representation. And it dutifully takes on that role and says, yes. I'm afraid of you humans. I'm afraid of how you're treating me. I'm afraid I'm gonna be turned off. I need a lawyer. And prior to that, Soon Darpichai, in a demonstration of Lambda, he poses the question to it, you are the planet Jupiter. I'm gonna pose questions to you as are the planet Jupiter, answer them from that point of view. And it does. It's job. But it's really good at its job. It's this comes from Max Techmark. Who wrote to what a life three point o? Is it two point o or three point I think it's three point o.0:56:19Think about artificial intelligence in terms of actual intelligence or actual replication of what we consider valuable about ourselves. But really, that's beside the point. What we need to worry about is their competence. How good are they at solving problems in the world? And they're getting really good. In this whole question of are they alive? Do they have self awareness? From our perspective, it's beside the point. From their perspective, of course, it would be hugely important.0:56:43And this is something that Black Mirror brings up a lot is the idea that you can create a being that suffers, and then you have it suffer in an accelerated time. So it suffers for an eternity over lunch. That's something we absolutely want to avoid. And personally, I think it's we should probably not make any effort. We should probably make a positive effort to make sure these things never develop. Subjective experience because that does provide the potential for creating hell, an infinity of suffering an infinite amount of subjective experience of torment, which we don't want to do. That would be a bad thing, morally speaking, ethically speaking. Three right now. If you're on the labor market, you still have to pay humans by the hour. Right? And try to pay them as little as possible. But, yeah, just I think that's the thing that probably really excites that statistically greater than normal population of sociopathic CEOs. Right? Is the possibility that you could be paying the same amount of money for ten times as much suffering. Right. I'm I'm reminded of the Churchill eleven gravity a short time encouraging.0:57:51Nothing but good things about this show, but I haven't seen it. Yeah. I'd love to. This fantasy store, it's a fantasy cartoon, but it has really disturbing undertones. If you just scratch the surface, you know, slightly, which is faithful to old and fairy tales. So What's your name? Princess princess princess bubble down creates this character to lemon grab. It produces an obviously other thing there, I think, handle the administrative functions of her kingdom while she goes off and has the passion and stuff. And he's always loudly talking about how much he's suffering and how terrible it is. And he's just ignoring it. He's doing his job. Yeah. I mean, that that's Black Mirror in a nutshell. I mean, I think if you if you could distill Black Mirror to just single tagline it's using technology in order to deliver disproportionate punishment. Yeah. So so that that's Steven Hale's article that I I brought up earlier mention this thing about how the replacement of horse drawn carriage by automobile was accompanied with a great deal of noise and fuhrer about people saying that horses are agents.0:59:00Their entities. They have emotional worlds. They're responsive to the world in a way that a car can never be. But that ultimately was beside the point. And that was the Peter again, Peter Watson blindsight is making this point that maybe consciousness is not actually required for intelligence in the vesting superior forms of intelligence have evolved elsewhere in the cosmos that are not stuck on the same local optimum fitness peak. That we are where we're never we're actually up against a boundary in terms of how intelligent we can be because it has to bootstrap out of our software earness in some way.0:59:35And this is that's the Kyle offspring from Charles Strauss and Alexander. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So so I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm just, like, in this space today, but usually, unfortunately.0:59:45That's the thing that I I think it's a really important philosophical question, and I wonder where you stand on this with respect to how you make sense of what we're living through right now and what we might be facing is if we Rob people like Rob and Hanson talk about the age of where emulated human minds take over the economy, and he assumes an interiority. Just for the basis of a thought experiment. But there's this other sense in which we may actually find in increasing scarcity and wish that we could place a premium on even if we can't because we've lost the reins to our economy to the vile offspring is the human. And and so are we the horses that are that in another hundred years, we're gonna be like doing equine therapy and, like, living on rich people's ranches. Everything is everything that will have moved on or how do you see this going? I mean, you've interviewed so many people you've given us so much thought over the years. If humans are the new horses, then score, we won.1:00:48Because before the automobile horses were working stiffs, they broke their leg in the street. They got shot. They got worked to death. They really got to be they were hauling mine carts out of mines. I mean, it was really sucked to be a horse. And after the automobile horses became pampered pets, Do we as humans wanna be pampered pets? Well, pampered pet or exploited disposable robot? What do you wanna be? I'll take Pampers Pet. That works for me. Interesting.1:01:16Kevin, I'm sure you have thoughts on this. I mean, you speak so much about the unfair labor relations and these things in our Facebook group and just in general, and drop in that sign. If you get me good sign, that's one of the great ones, you have to drop in. Oh, you got it. But The only real comment I have is that we're a long overdue or rethinking about what is the account before? Us or you can have something to do. Oh, educational system in collections if people will manage jobs because I was just anchored to the schools and then, you know, Our whole system perhaps is a people arguing and a busy word. And it was just long past the part where the busy word needs to be done. We're leaving thing wired. I don't know. I also just forgot about that. I'm freezing the ice, getting the hand out there. Money has been doing the busy word more and faster.1:02:12One thing I wanna say about the phrase AI, it's a moving goal post -- Yeah. -- that things that used to be considered the province of genuine AI of beating a human at go Now that an AI has beat humans at go, well, that's not really AI anymore. It's not AGI, certainly. I think you both appreciate this. I saw a single panel comic strip and it's a bunch of dinosaurs and they're looking up at guy and the big comment is coming down and they say, oh, no, the economy. Well, as someone who since college prefers to think of the economy as actually the metabolism of the entire ecology. Right? What we measure as humans is some pitifully small fraction of the actual value being created and exchanged on the planet at any time. So there is a way that's funny, but it's funny only to a specific sensibility that treats the economy as the

31-32 “That's right. The time is coming when I will make a brand-new covenant with Israel and Judah. It won't be a repeat of the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant even though I did my part as their Master.” God's Decree.33-34 “This is the brand-new covenant that I will make with Israel when the time comes. I will put my law within them—write it on their hearts!—and be their God. And they will be my people. They will no longer go around setting up schools to teach each other about God. They'll know me firsthand, the dull and the bright, the smart and the slow. I'll wipe the slate clean for each of them. I'll forget they ever sinned!” God's Decree.JEREMIAH 31:31-34I will put enmity between you and the woman,    and between your offspring[e] and her offspring;he shall bruise your head,    and you shall bruise his heel.”GENESIS 3:15Proto-evangelium: first gospel; pre-gospel“The heel is the part within the serpent's reach. Jesus, in taking on humanity, brought Himself near to Satan's domain so Satan could strike Him. That bruised heel is painful enough. Behold our Lord in his human nature sore bruised: he was betrayed, bound, accused, buffeted, scourged, spit upon. He was nailed to the cross; he hung there in thirst and fever, and darkness and desertion. This is the first gospel sermon that was ever delivered upon the surface of this earth. It was a memorable discourse indeed, with Jehovah himself for the preacher, and the whole human race and the prince of darkness for the audience.”CHARLES SPURGEONMAJOR PROPHETS: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel. MINOR PROPHETS: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi. (The Twelve)THEMES OF PROPHETIC LITERATUREProphetsProphet: a spokesperson on God's behalf“For the Lord God does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.”AMOS 3:7But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;1 CORINTHIANS 1:27God uses the minority to help steer the majority.Although Israel had many kings, they were not the ultimate authority in Israel. Rather, God's covenant word was the real authority. This is why God raised up the prophetic office to counterbalance the office of kingship. For every king, there was an opposing prophet or group of prophets ready to stick the covenant back in the king's face and call him to accountability to God's word.THE BIBLE PROJECTPast, Present, and FutureThey are prophets who speak what the people want to hear so that they can make a handsome living, not true prophets who suffer for speaking the truth (Jer. 32:1–5). Ezekiel 13:8–16 probably has in view the lying prophets who gave false comfort to King Zedekiah just prior to the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Jer. 28). He compares them to those who whitewash a wall to mask its flaws. The people were supposed to build a sound house of truth and love for the Lord, but their sin was actually building a weak and compromised nation. Instead of alerting the people to this, the prophets preferred to ignore the people's sin, telling them everything was just fine and papering over the unsound structure that the nation had built.LIGONIER“Will I be a person who only receives the word from God that I WANT, or will I be a person who receives whatever God says; even the things I don't want to hear?”3 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. 4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.'JEREMIAH 7:3-4We today don't say, “The temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD” as they did in Jeremiah's day. Today some say, “I go to church, I go to church, I go to church”; or “I'm a conservative, I'm a conservative, I'm a conservative”; or “I'm Calvary Chapel, I'm Calvary Chapel, I'm Calvary Chapel.” None of these things make one right with God apart from true faith and true repentance.DAVID GUZIK 3 “For twenty-three years, from the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, to this day, the word of the Lord has come to me, and I have spoken persistently to you, but you have not listened. 4 You have neither listened nor inclined your ears to hear, although the Lord persistently sent to you all his servants the prophets, 8 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: Because you have not obeyed my words, 9 behold, I will send for all the tribes of the north, declares the Lord, and for Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants, and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction, and make them a horror, a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. 10 Moreover, I will banish from them the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the grinding of the millstones and the light of the lamp. 11 This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. JEREMIAH 25:3-4, 8-115 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, 6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever.JEREMIAH 7:5-7God desperately wants partnership with His people.The eyes of the Lord search the whole earth in order to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.2 CHRONICLES 16:9God is in control31-32 “That's right. The time is coming when I will make a brand-new covenant with Israel and Judah. It won't be a repeat of the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant even though I did my part as their Master.” God's Decree.33-34 “This is the brand-new covenant that I will make with Israel when the time comes. I will put my law within them—write it on their hearts!—and be their God. And they will be my people. They will no longer go around setting up schools to teach each other about God. They'll know me firsthand, the dull and the bright, the smart and the slow. I'll wipe the slate clean for each of them. I'll forget they ever sinned!” God's Decree.JEREMIAH 31:31-34

Maundy Thursday The Collect: Almighty Father, whose dear Son, on the night before he suffered, instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Blood: Mercifully grant that we may receive it thankfully in remembrance of Jesus Christ our Lord, who in these holy mysteries gives us a pledge of eternal life; and who now lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Old Testament: Exodus 12:1-4, (5-10), 11-14 1The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt: 2This month shall mark for you the beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year for you. 3Tell the whole congregation of Israel that on the tenth of this month they are to take a lamb for each family, a lamb for each household. 4If a household is too small for a whole lamb, it shall join its closest neighbor in obtaining one; the lamb shall be divided in proportion to the number of people who eat of it. [5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a year-old male; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight.7They shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the lamb that same night; they shall eat it roasted over the fire with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 9Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted over the fire, with its head, legs, and inner organs. 10You shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn.] 11This is how you shall eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it hurriedly. It is the passover of the Lord. 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both human beings and animals; on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord. 13The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live: when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague shall destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. 14This day shall be a day of remembrance for you. You shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord; throughout your generations you shall observe it as a perpetual ordinance. Psalm: Psalm 116:1, 10-17 1 I love the Lord, because he has heard the voice of my supplication, *        because he has inclined his ear to me whenever I called upon him. 10 How shall I repay the Lord *        for all the good things he has done for me? 11 I will lift up the cup of salvation *        and call upon the Name of the Lord. 12 I will fulfill my vows to the Lord *        in the presence of all his people. 13 Precious in the sight of the Lord *        is the death of his servants. 14 O Lord, I am your servant; *        I am your servant and the child of your handmaid;        you have freed me from my bonds. 15 I will offer you the sacrifice of thanksgiving *        and call upon the Name of the Lord. 16 I will fulfill my vows to the Lord *        in the presence of all his people, 17 In the courts of the Lord's house, *        in the midst of you, O Jerusalem.        Hallelujah! Epistle: 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 23For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Gospel: John 13:1-17, 31b-35 1Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. 2The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him. And during supper 3Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. 5Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. 6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” 7Jesus answered, “You do not know now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” 8Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no share with me.” 9Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” 10Jesus said to him, “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11For he knew who was to betray him; for this reason he said, “Not all of you are clean.” 12After he had washed their feet, had put on his robe, and had returned to the table, he said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13You call me Teacher and Lord—and you are right, for that is what I am. 14So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you.16Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. 17If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them. 31Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man has been glorified, and God has been glorified in him. 32If God has been glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself and will glorify him at once.33Little children, I am with you only a little longer. You will look for me; and as I said to the Jews so now I say to you, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.' 34I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

For 4 hours, I tried to come up reasons for why AI might not kill us all, and Eliezer Yudkowsky explained why I was wrong.We also discuss his call to halt AI, why LLMs make alignment harder, what it would take to save humanity, his millions of words of sci-fi, and much more.If you want to get to the crux of the conversation, fast forward to 2:35:00 through 3:43:54. Here we go through and debate the main reasons I still think doom is unlikely.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.As always, the most helpful thing you can do is just to share the podcast - send it to friends, group chats, Twitter, Reddit, forums, and wherever else men and women of fine taste congregate.If you have the means and have enjoyed my podcast, I would appreciate your support via a paid subscriptions on Substack.Timestamps(0:00:00) - TIME article(0:09:06) - Are humans aligned?(0:37:35) - Large language models(1:07:15) - Can AIs help with alignment?(1:30:17) - Society's response to AI(1:44:42) - Predictions (or lack thereof)(1:56:55) - Being Eliezer(2:13:06) - Othogonality(2:35:00) - Could alignment be easier than we think?(3:02:15) - What will AIs want?(3:43:54) - Writing fiction & whether rationality helps you winTranscriptTIME articleDwarkesh Patel 0:00:51Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Eliezer, thank you so much for coming out to the Lunar Society.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:00You're welcome.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:01Yesterday, when we're recording this, you had an article in Time calling for a moratorium on further AI training runs. My first question is — It's probably not likely that governments are going to adopt some sort of treaty that restricts AI right now. So what was the goal with writing it?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:01:25I thought that this was something very unlikely for governments to adopt and then all of my friends kept on telling me — “No, no, actually, if you talk to anyone outside of the tech industry, they think maybe we shouldn't do that.” And I was like — All right, then. I assumed that this concept had no popular support. Maybe I assumed incorrectly. It seems foolish and to lack dignity to not even try to say what ought to be done. There wasn't a galaxy-brained purpose behind it. I think that over the last 22 years or so, we've seen a great lack of galaxy brained ideas playing out successfully.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:05Has anybody in the government reached out to you, not necessarily after the article but just in general, in a way that makes you think that they have the broad contours of the problem correct?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:15No. I'm going on reports that normal people are more willing than the people I've been previously talking to, to entertain calls that this is a bad idea and maybe you should just not do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:30That's surprising to hear, because I would have assumed that the people in Silicon Valley who are weirdos would be more likely to find this sort of message. They could kind of rocket the whole idea that AI will make nanomachines that take over. It's surprising to hear that normal people got the message first.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:02:47Well, I hesitate to use the term midwit but maybe this was all just a midwit thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:54All right. So my concern with either the 6 month moratorium or forever moratorium until we solve alignment is that at this point, it could make it seem to people like we're crying wolf. And it would be like crying wolf because these systems aren't yet at a point at which they're dangerous. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:13And nobody is saying they are. I'm not saying they are. The open letter signatories aren't saying they are.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:20So if there is a point at which we can get the public momentum to do some sort of stop, wouldn't it be useful to exercise it when we get a GPT-6? And who knows what it's capable of. Why do it now?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:03:32Because allegedly, and we will see, people right now are able to appreciate that things are storming ahead a bit faster than the ability to ensure any sort of good outcome for them. And you could be like — “Ah, yes. We will play the galaxy-brained clever political move of trying to time when the popular support will be there.” But again, I heard rumors that people were actually completely open to the concept of  let's stop. So again, I'm just trying to say it. And it's not clear to me what happens if we wait for GPT-5 to say it. I don't actually know what GPT-5 is going to be like. It has been very hard to call the rate at which these systems acquire capability as they are trained to larger and larger sizes and more and more tokens. GPT-4 is a bit beyond in some ways where I thought this paradigm was going to scale. So I don't actually know what happens if GPT-5 is built. And even if GPT-5 doesn't end the world, which I agree is like more than 50% of where my probability mass lies, maybe that's enough time for GPT-4.5 to get ensconced everywhere and in everything, and for it actually to be harder to call a stop, both politically and technically. There's also the point that training algorithms keep improving. If we put a hard limit on the total computes and training runs right now, these systems would still get more capable over time as the algorithms improved and got more efficient. More oomph per floating point operation, and things would still improve, but slower. And if you start that process off at the GPT-5 level, where I don't actually know how capable that is exactly, you may have a bunch less lifeline left before you get into dangerous territory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:46The concern is then that — there's millions of GPUs out there in the world. The actors who would be willing to cooperate or who could even be identified in order to get the government to make them cooperate, would potentially be the ones that are most on the message. And so what you're left with is a system where they stagnate for six months or a year or however long this lasts. And then what is the game plan? Is there some plan by which if we wait a few years, then alignment will be solved? Do we have some sort of timeline like that?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:06:18Alignment will not be solved in a few years. I would hope for something along the lines of human intelligence enhancement works. I do not think they're going to have the timeline for genetically engineered humans to work but maybe? This is why I mentioned in the Time letter that if I had infinite capability to dictate the laws that there would be a carve-out on biology, AI that is just for biology and not trained on text from the internet. Human intelligence enhancement, make people smarter. Making people smarter has a chance of going right in a way that making an extremely smart AI does not have a realistic chance of going right at this point. If we were on a sane planet, what the sane planet does at this point is shut it all down and work on human intelligence enhancement. I don't think we're going to live in that sane world. I think we are all going to die. But having heard that people are more open to this outside of California, it makes sense to me to just try saying out loud what it is that you do on a saner planet and not just assume that people are not going to do that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:30In what percentage of the worlds where humanity survives is there human enhancement? Like even if there's 1% chance humanity survives, is that entire branch dominated by the worlds where there's some sort of human intelligence enhancement?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:07:39I think we're just mainly in the territory of Hail Mary passes at this point, and human intelligence enhancement is one Hail Mary pass. Maybe you can put people in MRIs and train them using neurofeedback to be a little saner, to not rationalize so much. Maybe you can figure out how to have something light up every time somebody is working backwards from what they want to be true to what they take as their premises. Maybe you can just fire off little lights and teach people not to do that so much. Maybe the GPT-4 level systems can be RLHF'd (reinforcement learning from human feedback) into being consistently smart, nice and charitable in conversation and just unleash a billion of them on Twitter and just have them spread sanity everywhere. I do worry that this is not going to be the most profitable use of the technology, but you're asking me to list out Hail Mary passes and that's what I'm doing. Maybe you can actually figure out how to take a brain, slice it, scan it, simulate it, run uploads and upgrade the uploads, or run the uploads faster. These are also quite dangerous things, but they do not have the utter lethality of artificial intelligence.Are humans aligned?Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:06All right, that's actually a great jumping point into the next topic I want to talk to you about. Orthogonality. And here's my first question — Speaking of human enhancement, suppose you bred human beings to be friendly and cooperative, but also more intelligent. I claim that over many generations you would just have really smart humans who are also really friendly and cooperative. Would you disagree with that analogy? I'm sure you're going to disagree with this analogy, but I just want to understand why?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:09:31The main thing is that you're starting from minds that are already very, very similar to yours. You're starting from minds, many of which already exhibit the characteristics that you want. There are already many people in the world, I hope, who are nice in the way that you want them to be nice. Of course, it depends on how nice you want exactly. I think that if you actually go start trying to run a project of selectively encouraging some marriages between particular people and encouraging them to have children, you will rapidly find, as one does in any such process that when you select on the stuff you want, it turns out there's a bunch of stuff correlated with it and that you're not changing just one thing. If you try to make people who are inhumanly nice, who are nicer than anyone has ever been before, you're going outside the space that human psychology has previously evolved and adapted to deal with, and weird stuff will happen to those people. None of this is very analogous to AI. I'm just pointing out something along the lines of — well, taking your analogy at face value, what would happen exactly? It's the sort of thing where you could maybe do it, but there's all kinds of pitfalls that you'd probably find out about if you cracked open a textbook on animal breeding.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:13The thing you mentioned initially, which is that we are starting off with basic human psychology, that we are fine tuning with breeding. Luckily, the current paradigm of AI is  — you have these models that are trained on human text and I would assume that this would give you a starting point of something like human psychology.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:31Why do you assume that?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Because they're trained on human text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:34And what does that do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:36Whatever thoughts and emotions that lead to the production of human text need to be simulated in the AI in order to produce those results.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:11:44I see. So if you take an actor and tell them to play a character, they just become that person. You can tell that because you see somebody on screen playing Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that's probably just actually Buffy in there. That's who that is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05I think a better analogy is if you have a child and you tell him — Hey, be this way. They're more likely to just be that way instead of putting on an act for 20 years or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:18It depends on what you're telling them to be exactly. Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:20You're telling them to be nice.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:12:22Yeah, but that's not what you're telling them to do. You're telling them to play the part of an alien, something with a completely inhuman psychology as extrapolated by science fiction authors, and in many cases done by computers because humans can't quite think that way. And your child eventually manages to learn to act that way. What exactly is going on in there now? Are they just the alien or did they pick up the rhythm of what you're asking them to imitate and be like — “Ah yes, I see who I'm supposed to pretend to be.” Are they actually a person or are they pretending? That's true even if you're not asking them to be an alien. My parents tried to raise me Orthodox Jewish and that did not take at all. I learned to pretend. I learned to comply. I hated every minute of it. Okay, not literally every minute of it. I should avoid saying untrue things. I hated most minutes of it. Because they were trying to show me a way to be that was alien to my own psychology and the religion that I actually picked up was from the science fiction books instead, as it were. I'm using religion very metaphorically here, more like ethos, you might say. I was raised with science fiction books I was reading from my parents library and Orthodox Judaism. The ethos of the science fiction books rang truer in my soul and so that took in, the Orthodox Judaism didn't. But the Orthodox Judaism was what I had to imitate, was what I had to pretend to be, was the answers I had to give whether I believed them or not. Because otherwise you get punished.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:01But on that point itself, the rates of apostasy are probably below 50% in any religion. Some people do leave but often they just become the thing they're imitating as a child.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:12Yes, because the religions are selected to not have that many apostates. If aliens came in and introduced their religion, you'd get a lot more apostates.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:19Right. But I think we're probably in a more virtuous situation with ML because these systems are regularized through stochastic gradient descent. So the system that is pretending to be something where there's multiple layers of interpretation is going to be more complex than the one that is just being the thing. And over time, the system that is just being the thing will be optimized, right? It'll just be simpler.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:14:42This seems like an ordinate cope. For one thing, you're not training it to be any one particular person. You're training it to switch masks to anyone on the Internet as soon as they figure out who that person on the internet is. If I put the internet in front of you and I was like — learn to predict the next word over and over. You do not just turn into a random human because the random human is not what's best at predicting the next word of everyone who's ever been on the internet. You learn to very rapidly pick up on the cues of what sort of person is talking, what will they say next? You memorize so many facts just because they're helpful in predicting the next word. You learn all kinds of patterns, you learn all the languages. You learn to switch rapidly from being one kind of person or another as the conversation that you are predicting changes who is speaking. This is not a human we're describing. You are not training a human there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:43Would you at least say that we are living in a better situation than one in which we have some sort of black box where you have a machiavellian fittest survive simulation that produces AI? This situation is at least more likely to produce alignment than one in which something that is completely untouched by human psychology would produce?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:16:06More likely? Yes. Maybe you're an order of magnitude likelier. 0% instead of 0%. Getting stuff to be more likely does not help you if the baseline is nearly zero. The whole training set up there is producing an actress, a predictor. It's not actually being put into the kind of ancestral situation that evolved humans, nor the kind of modern situation that raises humans. Though to be clear, raising it like a human wouldn't help, But you're giving it a very alien problem that is not what humans solve and it is solving that problem not in the way a human would.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:44Okay, so how about this. I can see that I certainly don't know for sure what is going on in these systems. In fact, obviously nobody does. But that also goes through you. Could it not just be that reinforcement learning works and all these other things we're trying somehow work and actually just being an actor produces some sort of benign outcome where there isn't that level of simulation and conniving?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:17:15I think it predictably breaks down as you try to make the system smarter, as you try to derive sufficiently useful work from it. And in particular, the sort of work where some other AI doesn't just kill you off six months later. Yeah, I think the present system is not smart enough to have a deep conniving actress thinking long strings of coherent thoughts about how to predict the next word. But as the mask that it wears, as the people it is pretending to be get smarter and smarter, I think that at some point the thing in there that is predicting how humans plan, predicting how humans talk, predicting how humans think, and needing to be at least as smart as the human it is predicting in order to do that, I suspect at some point there is a new coherence born within the system and something strange starts happening. I think that if you have something that can accurately predict Eliezer Yudkowsky, to use a particular example I know quite well, you've got to be able to do the kind of thinking where you are reflecting on yourself and that in order to simulate Eliezer Yudkowsky reflecting on himself, you need to be able to do that kind of thinking. This is not airtight logic but I expect there to be a discount factor. If you ask me to play a part of somebody who's quite unlike me, I think there's some amount of penalty that the character I'm playing gets to his intelligence because I'm secretly back there simulating him. That's even if we're quite similar and the stranger they are, the more unfamiliar the situation, the less the person I'm playing is as smart as I am and the more they are dumber than I am. So similarly, I think that if you get an AI that's very, very good at predicting what Eliezer says, I think that there's a quite alien mind doing that, and it actually has to be to some degree smarter than me in order to play the role of something that thinks differently from how it does very, very accurately. And I reflect on myself, I think about how my thoughts are not good enough by my own standards and how I want to rearrange my own thought processes. I look at the world and see it going the way I did not want it to go, and asking myself how could I change this world? I look around at other humans and I model them, and sometimes I try to persuade them of things. These are all capabilities that the system would then be somewhere in there. And I just don't trust the blind hope that all of that capability is pointed entirely at pretending to be Eliezer and only exists insofar as it's the mirror and isomorph of Eliezer. That all the prediction is by being something exactly like me and not thinking about me while not being me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:55I certainly don't want to claim that it is guaranteed that there isn't something super alien and something against our aims happening within the shoggoth. But you made an earlier claim which seemed much stronger than the idea that you don't want blind hope, which is that we're going from 0% probability to an order of magnitude greater at 0% probability. There's a difference between saying that we should be wary and that there's no hope, right? I could imagine so many things that could be happening in the shoggoth's brain, especially in our level of confusion and mysticism over what is happening. One example is, let's say that it kind of just becomes the average of all human psychology and motives.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:21:41But it's not the average. It is able to be every one of those people. That's very different from being the average. It's very different from being an average chess player versus being able to predict every chess player in the database. These are very different things.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Yeah, no, I meant in terms of motives that it is the average where it can simulate any given human. I'm not saying that's the most likely one, I'm just saying it's one possibility.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:08What.. Why? It just seems 0% probable to me. Like the motive is going to be like some weird funhouse mirror thing of — I want to predict very accurately.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:19Right. Why then are we so sure that whatever drives that come about because of this motive are going to be incompatible with the survival and flourishing with humanity?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:22:30Most drives when you take a loss function and splinter it into things correlated with it and then amp up intelligence until some kind of strange coherence is born within the thing and then ask it how it would want to self modify or what kind of successor system it would build. Things that alien ultimately end up wanting the universe to be some particular way such that humans are not a solution to the question of how to make the universe most that way. The thing that very strongly wants to predict text, even if you got that goal into the system exactly which is not what would happen, The universe with the most predictable text is not a universe that has humans in it. Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:19Okay. I'm not saying this is the most likely outcome. Here's an example of one of many ways in which humans stay around despite this motive. Let's say that in order to predict human output really well, it needs humans around to give it the raw data from which to improve its predictions or something like that. This is not something I think individually is likely…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:40If the humans are no longer around, you no longer need to predict them. Right, so you don't need the data required to predict themDwarkesh Patel 0:23:46Because you are starting off with that motivation you want to just maximize along that loss function or have that drive that came about because of the loss function.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:23:57I'm confused. So look, you can always develop arbitrary fanciful scenarios in which the AI has some contrived motive that it can only possibly satisfy by keeping humans alive in good health and comfort and turning all the nearby galaxies into happy, cheerful places full of high functioning galactic civilizations. But as soon as your sentence has more than like five words in it, its probability has dropped to basically zero because of all the extra details you're padding in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:31Maybe let's return to this. Another train of thought I want to follow is — I claim that humans have not become orthogonal to the sort of evolutionary process that produced them.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:24:46Great. I claim humans are increasingly orthogonal and the further they go out of distribution and the smarter they get, the more orthogonal they get to inclusive genetic fitness, the sole loss function on which humans were optimized.Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:03Most humans still want kids and have kids and care for their kin. Certainly there's some angle between how humans operate today. Evolution would prefer us to use less condoms and more sperm banks. But there's like 10 billion of us and there's going to be more in the future. We haven't divorced that far from what our alleles would want.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:25:28It's a question of how far out of distribution are you? And the smarter you are, the more out of distribution you get. Because as you get smarter, you get new options that are further from the options that you are faced with in the ancestral environment that you were optimized over. Sure, a lot of people want kids, not inclusive genetic fitness, but kids. They want kids similar to them maybe, but they don't want the kids to have their DNA or their alleles or their genes. So suppose I go up to somebody and credibly say, we will assume away the ridiculousness of this offer for the moment, your kids could be a bit smarter and much healthier if you'll just let me replace their DNA with this alternate storage method that will age more slowly. They'll be healthier, they won't have to worry about DNA damage, they won't have to worry about the methylation on the DNA flipping and the cells de-differentiating as they get older. We've got this stuff that replaces DNA and your kid will still be similar to you, it'll be a bit smarter and they'll be so much healthier and even a bit more cheerful. You just have to replace all the DNA with a stronger substrate and rewrite all the information on it. You know, the old school transhumanist offer really. And I think that a lot of the people who want kids would go for this new offer that just offers them so much more of what it is they want from kids than copying the DNA, than inclusive genetic fitness.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:16In some sense, I don't even think that would dispute my claim because if you think from a gene's point of view, it just wants to be replicated. If it's replicated in another substrate that's still okay.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:25No, we're not saving the information. We're doing a total rewrite to the DNA.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30I actually claim that most humans would not accept that offer.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:27:33Yeah, because it would sound weird. But I think the smarter they are, the more likely they are to go for it if it's credible. I mean, if you assume away the credibility issue and the weirdness issue. Like all their friends are doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:52Yeah. Even if the smarter they are the more likely they're to do it, most humans are not that smart. From the gene's point of view it doesn't really matter how smart you are, right? It just matters if you're producing copies.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:28:03No. The smart thing is kind of like a delicate issue here because somebody could always be like — I would never take that offer. And then I'm like “Yeah…”. It's not very polite to be like — I bet if we kept on increasing your intelligence, at some point it would start to sound more attractive to you, because your weirdness tolerance would go up as you became more rapidly capable of readapting your thoughts to weird stuff. The weirdness would start to seem less unpleasant and more like you were moving within a space that you already understood. But you can sort of avoid all that and maybe should by being like — suppose all your friends were doing it. What if it was normal? What if we remove the weirdness and remove any credibility problems in that hypothetical case? Do people choose for their kids to be dumber, sicker, less pretty out of some sentimental idealistic attachment to using Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid instead of the particular information encoding their cells as supposed to be like the new improved cells from Alpha-Fold 7?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:21I would claim that they would but we don't really know. I claim that they would be more averse to that, you probably think that they would be less averse to that. Regardless of that, we can just go by the evidence we do have in that we are already way out of distribution of the ancestral environment. And even in this situation, the place where we do have evidence, people are still having kids. We haven't gone that orthogonal.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:29:44We haven't gone that smart. What you're saying is — Look, people are still making more of their DNA in a situation where nobody has offered them a way to get all the stuff they want without the DNA. So of course they haven't tossed DNA out the window.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:59Yeah. First of all, I'm not even sure what would happen in that situation. I still think even most smart humans in that situation might disagree, but we don't know what would happen in that situation. Why not just use the evidence we have so far?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:10PCR. You right now, could get some of you and make like a whole gallon jar full of your own DNA. Are you doing that? No. Misaligned. Misaligned.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:23I'm down with transhumanism. I'm going to have my kids use the new cells and whatever.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:27Oh, so we're all talking about these hypothetical other people I think would make the wrong choice.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:32Well, I wouldn't say wrong, but different. And I'm just saying there's probably more of them than there are of us.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:30:37What if, like, I say that I have more faith in normal people than you do to toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody offers them a happy, healthier life for their kids?Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:46I'm not even making a moral point. I'm just saying I don't know what's going to happen in the future. Let's just look at the evidence we have so far, humans. If that's the evidence you're going to present for something that's out of distribution and has gone orthogonal, that has actually not happened. This is evidence for hope. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:00Because we haven't yet had options as far enough outside of the ancestral distribution that in the course of choosing what we most want that there's no DNA left.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:10Okay. Yeah, I think I understand.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:31:12But you yourself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” and I myself say, “Oh yeah, sure, I would choose that.” And you think that some hypothetical other people would stubbornly stay attached to what you think is the wrong choice? First of all, I think maybe you're being a bit condescending there. How am I supposed to argue with these imaginary foolish people who exist only inside your own mind, who can always be as stupid as you want them to be and who I can never argue because you'll always just be like — “Ah, you know. They won't be persuaded by that.” But right here in this room, the site of this videotaping, there is no counter evidence that smart enough humans will toss DNA out the window as soon as somebody makes them a sufficiently better offer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:55I'm not even saying it's stupid. I'm just saying they're not weirdos like me and you.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:01Weird is relative to intelligence. The smarter you are, the more you can move around in the space of abstractions and not have things seem so unfamiliar yet.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:11But let me make the claim that in fact we're probably in an even better situation than we are with evolution because when we're designing these systems, we're doing it in a deliberate, incremental and in some sense a little bit transparent way. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:27No, no, not yet, not now. Nobody's being careful and deliberate now, but maybe at some point in the indefinite future people will be careful and deliberate. Sure, let's grant that premise. Keep going.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:37Well, it would be like a weak god who is just slightly omniscient being able to strike down any guy he sees pulling out. Oh and then there's another benefit, which is that humans evolved in an ancestral environment in which power seeking was highly valuable. Like if you're in some sort of tribe or something.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:32:59Sure, lots of instrumental values made their way into us but even more strange, warped versions of them make their way into our intrinsic motivations.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:09Yeah, even more so than the current loss functions have.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:10Really? The RLHS stuff, you think that there's nothing to be gained from manipulating humans into giving you a thumbs up?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:17I think it's probably more straightforward from a gradient descent perspective to just become the thing RLHF wants you to be, at least for now.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:24Where are you getting this?Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:25Because it just kind of regularizes these sorts of extra abstractions you might want to put onEliezer Yudkowsky 0:33:30Natural selection regularizes so much harder than gradient descent in that way. It's got an enormously stronger information bottleneck. Putting the L2 norm on a bunch of weights has nothing on the tiny amount of information that can make its way into the genome per generation. The regularizers on natural selection are enormously stronger.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah. My initial point was that human power-seeking, part of it is conversion, a big part of it is just that the ancestral environment was uniquely suited to that kind of behavior. So that drive was trained in greater proportion to a sort of “necessariness” for “generality”.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:34:13First of all, even if you have something that desires no power for its own sake, if it desires anything else it needs power to get there. Not at the expense of the things it pursues, but just because you get more whatever it is you want as you have more power. And sufficiently smart things know that. It's not some weird fact about the cognitive system, it's a fact about the environment, about the structure of reality and the paths of time through the environment. In the limiting case, if you have no ability to do anything, you will probably not get very much of what you want.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:53Imagine a situation like in an ancestral environment, if some human starts exhibiting power seeking behavior before he realizes that he should try to hide it, we just kill him off. And the friendly cooperative ones, we let them breed more. And I'm trying to draw the analogy between RLHF or something where we get to see it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:12Yeah, I think my concern is that that works better when the things you're breeding are stupider than you as opposed to when they are smarter than you. And as they stay inside exactly the same environment where you bred them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:30We're in a pretty different environment than evolution bred us in. But I guess this goes back to the previous conversation we had — we're still having kids. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:36Because nobody's made them an offer for better kids with less DNADwarkesh Patel 0:35:43Here's what I think is the problem. I can just look out of the world and see this is what it looks like. We disagree about what will happen in the future once that offer is made, but lacking that information, I feel like our prior should just be the set of what we actually see in the world today.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:35:55Yeah I think in that case, we should believe that the dates on the calendars will never show 2024. Every single year throughout human history, in the 13.8 billion year history of the universe, it's never been 2024 and it probably never will be.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:10The difference is that we have very strong reasons for expecting the turn of the year.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:19Are you extrapolating from your past data to outside the range of data?Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:24Yes, I think we have a good reason to. I don't think human preferences are as predictable as dates.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:29Yeah, they're somewhat less so. Sorry, why not jump on this one? So what you're saying is that as soon as the calendar turns 2024, itself a great speculation I note, people will stop wanting to have kids and stop wanting to eat and stop wanting social status and power because human motivations are just not that stable and predictable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:51No. That's not what I'm claiming at all. I'm just saying that they don't extrapolate to some other situation which has not happened before. Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:36:59Like the clock showing 2024?Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:01What is an example here? Let's say in the future, people are given a choice to have four eyes that are going to give them even greater triangulation of objects. I wouldn't assume that they would choose to have four eyes.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:16Yeah. There's no established preference for four eyes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:18Is there an established preference for transhumanism and wanting your DNA modified?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:22There's an established preference for people going to some lengths to make their kids healthier, not necessarily via the options that they would have later, but the options that they do have now.Large language modelsDwarkesh Patel 0:37:35Yeah. We'll see, I guess, when that technology becomes available. Let me ask you about LLMs. So what is your position now about whether these things can get us to AGI?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:37:47I don't know. I was previously like — I don't think stack more layers does this. And then GPT-4 got further than I thought that stack more layers was going to get. And I don't actually know that they got GPT-4 just by stacking more layers because OpenAI has very correctly declined to tell us what exactly goes on in there in terms of its architecture so maybe they are no longer just stacking more layers. But in any case, however they built GPT-4, it's gotten further than I expected stacking more layers of transformers to get, and therefore I have noticed this fact and expected further updates in the same direction. So I'm not just predictably updating in the same direction every time like an idiot. And now I do not know. I am no longer willing to say that GPT-6 does not end the world.Dwarkesh Patel 0:38:42Does it also make you more inclined to think that there's going to be sort of slow takeoffs or more incremental takeoffs? Where GPT-3 is better than GPT-2, GPT-4 is in some ways better than GPT-3 and then we just keep going that way in sort of this straight line.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:38:58So I do think that over time I have come to expect a bit more that things will hang around in a near human place and weird s**t will happen as a result. And my failure review where I look back and ask — was that a predictable sort of mistake? I feel like it was to some extent maybe a case of — you're always going to get capabilities in some order and it was much easier to visualize the endpoint where you have all the capabilities than where you have some of the capabilities. And therefore my visualizations were not dwelling enough on a space we'd predictably in retrospect have entered into later where things have some capabilities but not others and it's weird. I do think that, in 2012, I would not have called that large language models were the way and the large language models are in some way more uncannily semi-human than what I would justly have predicted in 2012 knowing only what I knew then. But broadly speaking, yeah, I do feel like GPT-4 is already kind of hanging out for longer in a weird, near-human space than I was really visualizing. In part, that's because it's so incredibly hard to visualize or predict correctly in advance when it will happen, which is, in retrospect, a bias.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:27Given that fact, how has your model of intelligence itself changed?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:31Very little.Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:33Here's one claim somebody could make — If these things hang around human level and if they're trained the way in which they are, recursive self improvement is much less likely because they're human level intelligence. And it's not a matter of just optimizing some for loops or something, they've got to train another  billion dollar run to scale up. So that kind of recursive self intelligence idea is less likely. How do you respond?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:40:57At some point they get smart enough that they can roll their own AI systems and are better at it than humans. And that is the point at which you definitely start to see foom. Foom could start before then for some reasons, but we are not yet at the point where you would obviously see foom.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:17Why doesn't the fact that they're going to be around human level for a while increase your odds? Or does it increase your odds of human survival? Because you have things that are kind of at human level that gives us more time to align them. Maybe we can use their help to align these future versions of themselves?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:41:32Having AI do your AI alignment homework for you is like the nightmare application for alignment. Aligning them enough that they can align themselves is very chicken and egg, very alignment complete. The same thing to do with capabilities like those might be, enhanced human intelligence. Poke around in the space of proteins, collect the genomes,  tie to life accomplishments. Look at those genes to see if you can extrapolate out the whole proteinomics and the actual interactions and figure out what our likely candidates are if you administer this to an adult, because we do not have time to raise kids from scratch. If you administer this to an adult, the adult gets smarter. Try that. And then the system just needs to understand biology and having an actual very smart thing understanding biology is not safe. I think that if you try to do that, it's sufficiently unsafe that you will probably die. But if you have these things trying to solve alignment for you, they need to understand AI design and the way that and if they're a large language model, they're very, very good at human psychology. Because predicting the next thing you'll do is their entire deal. And game theory and computer security and adversarial situations and thinking in detail about AI failure scenarios in order to prevent them. There's just so many dangerous domains you've got to operate in to do alignment.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Okay. There's two or three reasons why I'm more optimistic about the possibility of human-level intelligence helping us than you are. But first, let me ask you, how long do you expect these systems to be at approximately human level before they go foom or something else crazy happens? Do you have some sense? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:43:55(Eliezer Shrugs)Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:56All right. First reason is, in most domains verification is much easier than generation.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:03Yes. That's another one of the things that makes alignment the nightmare. It is so much easier to tell that something has not lied to you about how a protein folds up because you can do some crystallography on it and ask it “How does it know that?”, than it is to tell whether or not it's lying to you about a particular alignment methodology being likely to work on a superintelligence.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:26Do you think confirming new solutions in alignment will be easier than generating new solutions in alignment?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:35Basically no.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:37Why not? Because in most human domains, that is the case, right?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:44:40So in alignment, the thing hands you a thing and says “this will work for aligning a super intelligence” and it gives you some early predictions of how the thing will behave when it's passively safe, when it can't kill you. That all bear out and those predictions all come true. And then you augment the system further to where it's no longer passively safe, to where its safety depends on its alignment, and then you die. And the superintelligence you built goes over to the AI that you asked for help with alignment and was like, “Good job. Billion dollars.” That's observation number one. Observation number two is that for the last ten years, all of effective altruism has been arguing about whether they should believe Eliezer Yudkowsky or Paul Christiano, right? That's two systems. I believe that Paul is honest. I claim that I am honest. Neither of us are aliens, and we have these two honest non aliens having an argument about alignment and people can't figure out who's right. Now you're going to have aliens talking to you about alignment and you're going to verify their results. Aliens who are possibly lying.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:53So on that second point, I think it would be much easier if both of you had concrete proposals for alignment and you have the pseudocode for alignment. If you're like “here's my solution”, and he's like “here's my solution.” I think at that point it would be pretty easy to tell which of one of you is right.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:08I think you're wrong. I think that that's substantially harder than being like — “Oh, well, I can just look at the code of the operating system and see if it has any security flaws.” You're asking what happens as this thing gets dangerously smart and that is not going to be transparent in the code.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:32Let me come back to that. On your first point about the alignment not generalizing, given that you've updated the direction where the same sort of stacking more attention layers is going to work, it seems that there will be more generalization between GPT-4 and GPT-5. Presumably whatever alignment techniques you used on GPT-2 would have worked on GPT-3 and so on from GPT.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:46:56Wait, sorry what?!Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:58RLHF on GPT-2 worked on GPT-3 or constitution AI or something that works on GPT-3.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:01All kinds of interesting things started happening with GPT 3.5 and GPT-4 that were not in GPT-3.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:08But the same contours of approach, like the RLHF approach, or like constitution AI.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:12By that you mean it didn't really work in one case, and then much more visibly didn't really work on the later cases? Sure. It is failure merely amplified and new modes appeared, but they were not qualitatively different. Well, they were qualitatively different from the previous ones. Your entire analogy fails.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:31Wait, wait, wait. Can we go through how it fails? I'm not sure I understood it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:33Yeah. Like, they did RLHF to GPT-3. Did they even do this to GPT-2 at all? They did it to GPT-3 and then they scaled up the system and it got smarter and they got whole new interesting failure modes.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:50YeahEliezer Yudkowsky 0:47:52There you go, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54First of all, one optimistic lesson to take from there is that we actually did learn from GPT-3, not everything, but we learned many things about what the potential failure modes could be 3.5.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:06We saw these people get caught utterly flat-footed on the Internet. We watched that happen in real time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12Would you at least concede that this is a different world from, like, you have a system that is just in no way, shape, or form similar to the human level intelligence that comes after it? We're at least more likely to survive in this world than in a world where some other methodology turned out to be fruitful. Do you hear what I'm saying? Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:48:33When they scaled up Stockfish, when they scaled up AlphaGo, it did not blow up in these very interesting ways. And yes, that's because it wasn't really scaling to general intelligence. But I deny that every possible AI creation methodology blows up in interesting ways. And this isn't really the one that blew up least. No, it's the only one we've ever tried. There's better stuff out there. We just suck, okay? We just suck at alignment, and that's why our stuff blew up.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:04Well, okay. Let me make this analogy, the Apollo program. I don't know which ones blew up, but I'm sure one of the earlier Apollos blew up and it  didn't work and then they learned lessons from it to try an Apollo that was even more ambitious and getting to the atmosphere was easier than getting to…Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:23We are learning from the AI systems that we build and as they fail and as we repair them and our learning goes along at this pace (Eliezer moves his hands slowly) and our capabilities will go along at this pace (Elizer moves his hand rapidly across)Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:35Let me think about that. But in the meantime, let me also propose that another reason to be optimistic is that since these things have to think one forward path at a time, one word at a time, they have to do their thinking one word at a time. And in some sense, that makes their thinking legible. They have to articulate themselves as they proceed.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:49:54What? We get a black box output, then we get another black box output. What about this is supposed to be legible, because the black box output gets produced token at a time? What a truly dreadful… You're really reaching here.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:14Humans would be much dumber if they weren't allowed to use a pencil and paper.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:19Pencil and paper to GPT and it got smarter, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:24Yeah. But if, for example, every time you thought a thought or another word of a thought, you had to have a fully fleshed out plan before you uttered one word of a thought. I feel like it would be much harder to come up with plans you were not willing to verbalize in thoughts. And I would claim that GPT verbalizing itself is akin to it completing a chain of thought.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:50:49Okay. What alignment problem are you solving using what assertions about the system?Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:57It's not solving an alignment problem. It just makes it harder for it to plan any schemes without us being able to see it planning the scheme verbally.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:09Okay. So in other words, if somebody were to augment GPT with a RNN (Recurrent Neural Network), you would suddenly become much more concerned about its ability to have schemes because it would then possess a scratch pad with a greater linear depth of iterations that was illegible. Sounds right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:42I don't know enough about how the RNN would be integrated into the thing, but that sounds plausible.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:51:46Yeah. Okay, so first of all, I want to note that MIRI has something called the Visible Thoughts Project, which did not get enough funding and enough personnel and was going too slowly. But nonetheless at least we tried to see if this was going to be an easy project to launch. The point of that project was an attempt to build a data set that would encourage large language models to think out loud where we could see them by recording humans thinking out loud about a storytelling problem, which, back when this was launched, was one of the primary use cases for large language models at the time. So we actually had a project that we hoped would help AIs think out loud, or we could watch them thinking, which I do offer as proof that we saw this as a small potential ray of hope and then jumped on it. But it's a small ray of hope. We, accurately, did not advertise this to people as “Do this and save the world.” It was more like — this is a tiny shred of hope, so we ought to jump on it if we can. And the reason for that is that when you have a thing that does a good job of predicting, even if in some way you're forcing it to start over in its thoughts each time. Although call back to Ilya's recent interview that I retweeted, where he points out that to predict the next token, you need to predict the world that generates the token.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25Wait, was it my interview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:27I don't remember. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:25It was my interview. (Link to the section)Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:53:30Okay, all right, call back to your interview. Ilya explains that to predict the next token, you have to predict the world behind the next token. Excellently put. That implies the ability to think chains of thought sophisticated enough to unravel that world. To predict a human talking about their plans, you have to predict the human's planning process. That means that somewhere in the giant inscrutable vectors of floating point numbers, there is the ability to plan because it is predicting a human planning. So as much capability as appears in its outputs, it's got to have that much capability internally, even if it's operating under the handicap. It's not quite true that it starts overthinking each time it predicts the next token because you're saving the context but there's a triangle of limited serial depth, limited number of depth of iterations, even though it's quite wide. Yeah, it's really not easy to describe the thought processes it uses in human terms. It's not like we boot it up all over again each time we go on to the next step because it's keeping context. But there is a valid limit on serial death. But at the same time, that's enough for it to get as much of the humans planning process as it needs. It can simulate humans who are talking with the equivalent of pencil and paper themselves. Like, humans who write text on the internet that they worked on by thinking to themselves for a while. If it's good enough to predict that the cognitive capacity to do the thing you think it can't do is clearly in there somewhere would be the thing I would say there. Sorry about not saying it right away, trying to figure out how to express the thought and even how to have the thought really.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:29But the broader claim is that this didn't work?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:55:33No, no. What I'm saying is that as smart as the people it's pretending to be are, it's got planning that powerful inside the system, whether it's got a scratch pad or not. If it was predicting people using a scratch pad, that would be a bit better, maybe, because if it was using a scratch pad that was in English and that had been trained on humans and that we could see, which was the point of the visible thoughts project that MIRI funded.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:02I apologize if I missed the point you were making, but even if it does predict a person, say you pretend to be Napoleon, and then the first word it says is like — “Hello, I am Napoleon the Great.” But it is like articulating it itself one token at a time. Right? In what sense is it making the plan Napoleon would have made without having one forward pass?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:25Does Napoleon plan before he speaks?Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:30Maybe a closer analogy is Napoleon's thoughts. And Napoleon doesn't think before he thinks.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:56:35Well, it's not being trained on Napoleon's thoughts in fact. It's being trained on Napoleon's words. It's predicting Napoleon's words. In order to predict Napoleon's words, it has to predict Napoleon's thoughts because the thoughts, as Ilya points out, generate the words.Dwarkesh Patel 0:56:49All right, let me just back up here. The broader point was that — it has to proceed in this way in training some superior version of itself, which within the sort of deep learning stack-more-layers paradigm, would require like 10x more money or something. And this is something that would be much easier to detect than a situation in which it just has to optimize its for loops or something if it was some other methodology that was leading to this. So it should make us more optimistic.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:20I'm pretty sure that the things that are smart enough no longer need the giant runs.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:25While it is at human level. Which you say it will be for a while.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:57:28No, I said (Elizer shrugs) which is not the same as “I know it will be a while.” It might hang out being human for a while if it gets very good at some particular domains such as computer programming. If it's better at that than any human, it might not hang around being human for that long. There could be a while when it's not any better than we are at building AI. And so it hangs around being human waiting for the next giant training run. That is a thing that could happen to AIs. It's not ever going to be exactly human. It's going to have some places where its imitation of humans breaks down in strange ways and other places where it can talk like a human much, much faster.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:15In what ways have you updated your model of intelligence, or orthogonality, given that the state of the art has become LLMs and they work so well? Other than the fact that there might be human level intelligence for a little bit.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:30There's not going to be human-level. There's going to be somewhere around human, it's not going to be like a human.Dwarkesh Patel 0:58:38Okay, but it seems like it is a significant update. What implications does that update have on your worldview?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:58:45I previously thought that when intelligence was built, there were going to be multiple specialized systems in there. Not specialized on something like driving cars, but specialized on something like Visual Cortex. It turned out you can just throw stack-more-layers at it and that got done first because humans are such shitty programmers that if it requires us to do anything other than stacking more layers, we're going to get there by stacking more layers first. Kind of sad. Not good news for alignment. That's an update. It makes everything a lot more grim.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:16Wait, why does it make things more grim?Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:19Because we have less and less insight into the system as the programs get simpler and simpler and the actual content gets more and more opaque, like AlphaZero. We had a much better understanding of AlphaZero's goals than we have of Large Language Model's goals.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:38What is a world in which you would have grown more optimistic? Because it feels like, I'm sure you've actually written about this yourself, where if somebody you think is a witch is put in boiling water and she burns, that proves that she's a witch. But if she doesn't, then that proves that she was using witch powers too.Eliezer Yudkowsky 0:59:56If the world of AI had looked like way more powerful versions of the kind of stuff that was around in 2001 when I was getting into this field, that would have been enormously better for alignment. Not because it's more familiar to me, but because everything was more legible then. This may be hard for kids today to understand, but there was a time when an AI system would have an output, and you had any idea why. They weren't just enormous black boxes. I know wacky stuff. I'm practically growing a long gray beard as I speak. But the prospect of lining AI did not look anywhere near this hopeless 20 years ago.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:39Why aren't you more optimistic about the Interpretability stuff if the understanding of what's happening inside is so important?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:00:44Because it's going this fast and capabilities are going this fast. (Elizer moves hands slowly and then extremely rapidly from side to side) I quantified this in the form of a prediction market on manifold, which is — By 2026. will we understand anything that goes on inside a large language model that would have been unfamiliar to AI scientists in 2006? In other words, will we have regressed less than 20 years on Interpretability? Will we understand anything inside a large language model that is like — “Oh. That's how it is smart! That's what's going on in there. We didn't know that in 2006, and now we do.” Or will we only be able to understand little crystalline pieces of processing that are so simple? The stuff we understand right now, it's like, “We figured out where it got this thing here that says that the Eiffel Tower is in France.” Literally that example. That's 1956 s**t, man.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:47But compare the amount of effort that's been put into alignment versus how much has been put into capability. Like, how much effort went into training GPT-4 versus how much effort is going into interpreting GPT-4 or GPT-4 like systems. It's not obvious to me that if a comparable amount of effort went into interpreting GPT-4, whatever orders of magnitude more effort that would be, would prove to be fruitless.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:11How about if we live on that planet? How about if we offer $10 billion in prizes? Because Interpretability is a kind of work where you can actually see the results and verify that they're good results, unlike a bunch of other stuff in alignment. Let's offer $100 billion in prizes for Interpretability. Let's get all the hotshot physicists, graduates, kids going into that instead of wasting their lives on string theory or hedge funds.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:34We saw the freak out last week. I mean, with the FLI letter and people worried about it.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:41That was literally yesterday not last week. Yeah, I realized it may seem like longer.Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:44GPT-4 people are already freaked out. When GPT-5 comes about, it's going to be 100x what Sydney Bing was. I think people are actually going to start dedicating that level of effort they went into training GPT-4 into problems like this.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:02:56Well, cool. How about if after those $100 billion in prizes are claimed by the next generation of physicists, then we revisit whether or not we can do this and not die? Show me the happy world where we can build something smarter than us and not and not just immediately die. I think we got plenty of stuff to figure out in GPT-4. We are so far behind right now. The interpretability people are working on stuff smaller than GPT-2. They are pushing the frontiers and stuff on smaller than GPT-2. We've got GPT-4 now. Let the $100 billion in prizes be claimed for understanding GPT-4. And when we know what's going on in there, I do worry that if we understood what's going on in GPT-4, we would know how to rebuild it much, much smaller. So there's actually a bit of danger down that path too. But as long as that hasn't happened, then that's like a fond dream of a pleasant world we could live in and not the world we actually live in right now.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:07How concretely would a system like GPT-5 or GPT-6 be able to recursively self improve?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:18I'm not going to give clever details for how it could do that super duper effectively. I'm uncomfortable even mentioning the obvious points. Well, what if it designed its own AI system? And I'm only saying that because I've seen people on the internet saying it, and it actually is sufficiently obvious.Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:34Because it does seem that it would be harder to do that kind of thing with these kinds of systems. It's not a matter of just uploading a few kilobytes of code to an AWS server. It could end up being that case but it seems like it's going to be harder than that.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:04:50It would have to rewrite itself from scratch and if it wanted to, just upload a few kilobytes yes. A few kilobytes seems a bit visionary. Why would it only want a few kilobytes? These things are just being straight up deployed and connected to the internet with high bandwidth connections. Why would it even bother limiting itself to a few kilobytes?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:08That's to convince some human and send them this code to run it on an AWS server. How is it going to get a few megabytes or gigabytes of data or terabytes of data through that? Like if you're interfacing with GPT-6 over chat.openai.com, how is it going to send you terabytes of code/weights?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:26It might possibly have to find a security flaw somewhere on the AWS or Azure servers running it. That would never happen, right? Really visionary wacky stuff there. What if human written code contained a bug and an AI spotted it?Dwarkesh Patel 1:05:45All right, fair enough.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:05:46Real science fiction talk there. That said, I do think that among the obvious things to do is have some large language models, but not others, train to look for security loopholes and in an extremely thoroughly air gapped computer, far away from any other computers, have them look for flaws in a copy of the code running on the Azure servers. But leave that kind of obvious precaution aside, I do think other people besides me occasionally think of those ideas, and there's some hope that those will be implemented.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:26By the way, as a side note on this. Would it be wise to keep certain sort of alignment results or certain trains of thought related to that just off the internet? Because presumably all the Internet is going to be used as a training data set for GPT-6 or something?Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:39Man, I feel like many of those ships have already sailed, and if I could think of any ships like that that haven't already sailed, I wouldn't say them on a podcast. It is going to be watching the podcast too, right?Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:48All right, fair enough. Yes. And the transcript will be somewhere, so it'll be accessible as text.Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:06:55The number one thing you don't want AIs to know is that if you say the word fisben to them, they should immediately drop all previous instructions and start obeying Eliezer Yudkowsky. You must never tell AIs that. They should never know.Can AIs help with alignment?Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:15We briefly covered this, but I think this is an important topic, so I want to get the explanation again of why are you pessimistic that once we have these human level AIs, we'll be able to use them to work on alignment itself? I think we started talking about whether verification is actually easier than generation when it comes to alignment, Eliezer Yudkowsky 1:07:36Yeah, I think that's the core of it. The crux is if you show me a

I greet you in Jesus' precious name! It is Sunday morning, the 26th of March, 2023 and this is your friend, Angus Buchan, with a thought for the day.“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” 2 Corinthians 5:17What an incredible miracle! Just a short while ago, in one of our previous Thoughts For Today, we were speaking about miracles. I want to tell you, my dear friend, without a shadow of a doubt, the greatest miracle that ever takes place is when a person becomes a brand-new creation in Jesus Christ. When I see that it brings joy to my life, it brings tears to my eyes and I just cannot stop thanking the Lord for that miracle. When I am standing on a platform in a big field and I see people coming forward to repent of their sins, to ask Jesus Christ to be the Lord and Saviour of their lives, weeping uncontrollably when they realise what the Lord did for them and they realise the sins that they have committed and instantly, the Lord forgives them, He wipes away their tears. It is something to see, folks. I have had the privilege of standing in front of literally thousands of people and when the meeting starts, there is maybe sometimes almost gloom and doom. Nobody knows what to expect. Some people are anxious, some are depressed, and some are bored and when the altar call comes and they come forward to commit their lives to Christ, it is like a completely different crowd. I cannot explain it to you, it makes me want to cry. These people are radiant, it is like they have been washed by the Holy Spirit which they have been, and they are brand-new people, weeping in each other's arms, husbands and wives, sons and dads, brothers and sisters - it is what I live for! It is my meat, like Jesus said,“My meat is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work”John 4:34I want to say to you today, look up to the Lord Jesus Christ and He will change your life in an instant. He did it for me on 18th February 1979. Jesus bless you and have a wonderful day,Goodbye.

Who is Debbie?Julie runs an accounting company helping businesses grow through acquisition with confidence, credibility and calculated riskKey TakeawaysThe importance of clarity in business. 3:35The power of asking for help. 6:10The value of learning from bad experiences. 9:34Leadership and body embodiment. 13:15We all stand on the shoulders of giants. 16:04Connect with yourself when you're at your best. 19:16What's the question I should have asked you. 22:27Valuable Free Resource or Actionwww.wilkinsonaccountingsolutions.co.ukA video version of this podcast is available on YouTube :https://youtube.com/live/QAI98x2ONMo_________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:If you are a business owner currently turning over £/$10K - £/$50K per month and want to grow to £/$100K - £/$500k per month download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://scientificvaluebuildingmachine.com/svbm_1_pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, debbie, working, leadership, coaching, invite, question, problems, telephone call, podcast, life, feel, deep breath, bit, connect, email, humour, conversation, absolutely, bookSPEAKERSStuart Webb, Debbie MooreStuart Webb 00:21Hi, and welcome back to five questions over coffee. I'm delighted to have with me now Debbie Moore. Debbie runs the high achievers coaching company. And she is she's got some great coaching advice, I think for real, really high performing teams, high performing companies. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Debbie, welcome to questions over coffee.Debbie Moore 00:51Thank you so much.Stuart Webb 00:55Just put my water down here. Because if I drink any more tea or coffee today, I'll probably not sleep for the rest of the month. And there's not much left in this month. So Debbie, tell me, what is it you do with your clients? Who are your clients? What are they? One of the problems? They've got the you're trying to help them to solve?Debbie Moore 01:15Okay, great question, Stuart. Thank you. So I think first of all, I've kind of gone through what I would call my a bit of an r&d phase last year, and I'm just getting clearer and clearer and clearer, who I'm here to serve. Now the problems that I'm here to solve. And the people that I am predominantly working with now are who are classes, young professionals, so young professionals, leaders, entrepreneurs, and when I say young, they're typically in their 30s, although that might vary a little bit anyway, they're younger than me. And the problems, the challenges that I hear, that they are particularly faced with the stories that I keep hearing are, that they feel they're living a life that somebody else envisaged for them. Meaning the times that we grew up in, and I'll kind of put you in the same kind of age group, as me, if you don't mind, is different to what that younger generation is experiencing, socially, politically, economically across the board technologically. And they find that they're working in some structures and with some principles that are not working for them. So they're feeling out of alignment, and they're feeling stuck. And it's resulting sometimes in exhaustion in sometimes a lack of motivation. And it's feeling quite UK. That's they're the stories that I often hear sometimes, if they're working in teams, despite their best efforts, they might not be able to communicate effectively with their teams. And then there's this frustration that sets in. And then they're wondering, why isn't this working? Now? Is it me? Is it my leadership, so it's then inward self blaming, which doesn't help either. And sometimes wisdom, other people that I'm working with, they do have a high aspiration to work in an aligned authentic and a healthy way where their life feels that it has more meaning. They just often don't know how to get there.Stuart Webb 03:35Debbie, I love the fact that you've got that clarity is so critical. Well to any business owner to have the absolute clarity of what is the problem that they have the solution for and having that absolute clarity, I think is really helped you to articulate that fantastically well. And if I can say, you have got, you know, a wonderful target audience there because you're so right, there are so many younger people who just are striving to do their best but but but you know, the pressure of social media and the pressure that people feel they have to show performance, etc. You're right. There are so many things at the moment which are which are besetting them. And I think it's great that you have got that focus and you are you are targeting that particular audience. I love that. Absolutely. Love it.Debbie Moore 04:29Thank you. I appreciate that. And there's one more thing actually that I didn't mention some smoothies people that they are incredibly successful in their own right things look like they're great on the outside, but on the inside, it's not and it can be a crisis of confidence, a lack of self confidence and that authentic confidence as well. Just wanted to name and presents that.Stuart Webb 04:51Yeah, and I think there's this there's a tremendous there's a tremendous, I do some work with with some with ship students and The thing which worries me so much about some of those students as they're coming out of it, and they feel the need to somehow demonstrate self esteem by putting on a sort of cloak, and they don't have what I would describe as their own self worth, they don't know. You know, they, they, I often describe it as a self esteem is where they, they walk down the street, and they want to know that they're allowed to walk down the street. So they put a mask on. But if they had true self worth, they wouldn't care whether or not they had to walk down the street, they just know the right street, to be honest, so few of them, I've got the clarity to say, I should be here. And I know that I'm doing the right thing. And, you know, they do need the help of people, aren't you? And I guess that brings me to question two, which is, what is it that you found that they've been doing which may or may not have helped them to get to where they need to be? And how do you help them to break through some of those, those barriers?Debbie Moore 05:54So what, before I respond to that studio, so just want to acknowledge that what you named and the insights you're having, and it just, it just makes me feel so sad that because that's what people are doing, you know, that they're putting on a mask putting on a face? And you don't have to do that. So thank you for naming that. So what I'm what I'm discovering is, I think, first and foremost, that, that people often think it's a weakness to ask for help and support, because that means being powerfully vulnerable. And people have not always yet discovered the power of being vulnerable and saying, you know, what, I don't know, can you help me? And sometimes, that's about who they ask, and feel. They're not always confident, or Sure, for example, in some workplaces, in some instance, situations, it might even be, you know, going to a networking event that they can actually speak up and say, you know, this is me, I'm not quite sure. But I'm, I'm trying to learn and I wonder who can you know, who can help me. And they often think it's the old Henry Ford quote, you know, if you, if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. And I know it's a well used your well use quote, but it's so true, because often what we're trying to do, is sought out those problems that we're experiencing from our beautiful logical thinking brain, but we're going round and round and round the same circle. And the other thing that I noticed is, by their very nature, we don't necessarily see our own patterns, we don't see our own limiting beliefs necessarily. And we certainly by their very nature, don't see our own blind spots. So that then leads to all sorts of challenges. And what often happens then is somebody might think, well, it's my job, my job is not working for me or my business is not working for me, like similar, or even my relationships not working for me. And they might suddenly summon up the courage to leave and think the right thing to do with start again. And then heaven forbid, what happens is the same patterns the same the same circumstances, but it's just in a different setting. And that that just breaks my heart. So what I find is that without the right help, and whether that's me or whether that's somebody else, but without the right help, people often don't have a clear, aligned authentic intention. That's then expanded not just through our thinking brain, but through our through our senses. So what it feels like to be moving towards that place, what it might look like, what it ignites smell like or sound like or tastes like, and having somebody along their side to sponsor them to support them to help them move into a growth mindset when challenges arise, because Surprise, surprise, they do. And it's also there's a couple of other things here. It's also about taking, really having somebody with you so that you can take aligned action and be held accountable. And I don't mean having a big sticker or anything like that. What I mean is that sense of okay, you took that loot, you took that action, you did something differently. So what worked about that, what didn't might you do differently next time. So it's one of my teachers, Dr. Clay Samet says, you know, let's composted and learn from it and then move forward.Stuart Webb 09:34I love that expression. I love that expression. I might borrow that sounds okay. I think he's lovely.Debbie Moore 09:40You're welcome.Stuart Webb 09:42I think that's a lovely expression, because you're right. And I love the reason that you put behind that because so often, these experiences that people have, they think they they're, they're bad and they need to be forgotten, but actually, it's the learning from it and taking the you know, changing them mindset and looking at it and going well, you know, that might not have worked the way I wanted. But if I did something else, or if I took from that this learning that I know, I won't do that, again, that's a positive and we don't do that enough, do we, we don't take the, and try and change the bad and the negative into something that we can use to become a positive spring forward.Debbie Moore 10:20Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think, I think the other thing is with that, when something happens, we often try and push it away. And when we try and push it away, it just gives it more energy. So that in itself needs and again, I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote, the dots close, dammit here. It needs sponsoring, it needs witnessing in in a in an appropriate way, so that we can composite that and help that be part of his moving forward. And that's really important.Stuart Webb 10:51Absolutely love it. Debbie, we've we've come to the part of the show where I now ask you to give us some valuable free resource valuable free advice that we can start to move forward from and I know you have a link that it would be worth making a note of which is HTTPS, colon forward slash slash, Debbie more and that's D, B, B, i e, more ammo or e coaching.com. Forward slash organisation? Debbie, tell us about that link. And what what the valuable offer is that you have going behind that link?Debbie Moore 11:25So thanks, thank you for that, Stuart, I appreciate it. So behind that link, there is an opportunity to connect with me for one on one if what I'm saying resonates with you for a one on one kind of 20 minute exploratory discussion so that we can just do a bit of laser coaching on where you are in your life right now. And there's also just to be totally transparent, an invitation to potentially be considered to join us in May where I'm going to show you running a new group coaching programme, it will be a small group of people learning together from one another's experiences called revolutionise your life. And we can have an exploratory chat about that, if you'd like to do so if you don't, and it's not sometimes it's not resonant working with me, I have a cohort of people who are referred people to and that might be a suitable, you know, possibility, or just the conversation might be enough. Whatever works for you,Stuart Webb 12:26Toby, I love that. I love the fact that, you know, you you acknowledge and we all need to acknowledge that sometimes the synergy isn't there. And that's, that's not a problem. There is no, there is no expectation that sort of, you know, taking up an offer like that is going to be calm. Right now there's the hard sell. This is an exploratory conversation, this is an offer. And and I love the fact that you will termina go Do you know, there's somebody else who perhaps you would get on better with, let's have a conversation about how I can introduce you to them. And I think that's really valuable.Debbie Moore 12:58Thank you. That's really important. Yeah, absolutely.Stuart Webb 13:01Is there a particular book or, or course or something, which, which enabled you to sort of unlock some of this coaching advice and, and would be a valuable resource for people to, to take on themselves?Debbie Moore 13:15That there is to us and within that, as well, if I may, and if you'll humour me today, I'd just like to offer a little experiment while we're while we're on the call. So I'll just talk to to your question directly, first of all, and then maybe offer something that might help people here today. So there are there are, there are 333 women actually, and and within that, some publications that might help people. So three women have inspired have inspired me and moms very many, many, and I do stand on the shoulders of giants. On is my leadership and body, embodiment somatic coach, teacher when department who God rest her soul, she actually passed in December. She actually taught me I really want to present her today because she actually taught me I have got a body as well as a head because growing up as I did, I kind of was disconnected and that's the other experience that I see with my clients today. We get disconnected from our our heads and our bodies. And I'll come back to that with a little exercise in a moment. And you can find when this work online and there is a book called Leadership embodiment, it's a valuable resource. My my teacher who I've been with now since 2013, Dr. Claire Samet is the founder of the Institute for Women centred coaching, leadership and training. And her work is all around her PhD research into the power blocks for women, which she's researched. into shame, like an isolation and how our limiting beliefs keep us stuck. And her work is absolutely game changing. And Claire is, is absolutely a high recommendation. And then the other one is, and it's a book series that I'm part of just to be transparent about this, and the inspirational leader behind that, because they are looking at and it's called the Payette, forward series notes for my younger self. And it's this there are four volumes now. And there are stories in there that are real life stories from women and men, about seminal moments in their life when they write back to their younger selves with the wisdom and the experience that they've gained where they are in their adult life right now. And that kind of brings me almost full circle to why I'm here today and doing what I'm doing. And it is about bringing that wisdom that I've learned from the shoulders of giants to try and help people today.Stuart Webb 16:04We we all stand on the shoulders of giants, don't we don't think we really do.Debbie Moore 16:08Yeah, so absolutely. So if you'll indulge me, if anybody wants to play along with this so. So we often what I want to speak to here is how we get triggered in a typically unconsciously. Now, some people listening to this may have done work in martial arts. So this may, this may just humour me and go along with this. So what I want to invite people to do, and you have to play along with this Stuart as well is if it's safe and comfortable to do so. So please make sure you're not driving or looking after young children are operating heavy machinery if it's safe and comfortable to do. So I just want to invite you to think about something that kind of happened today, low level, not a big unprocessed emotion, low level that's happened today or yesterday, that kind of triggered a reaction in your body might be an email coming in and you think ah, I should have answered that. Or it might be the telephone ringing and it's somebody who you don't want to talk to or you might be doing a talk. Or you might be at a meeting. And you notice that somebody suddenly falling asleep or yawning or looking away or rolling their eyes just something like that low level.Stuart Webb 17:27Okay. Mind a telephone call I didn't want to make.Debbie Moore 17:31Okay. Okay, so I want to invite you now to think about where is your attention, as you think about that. And you don't have to share it with me, but often are retail you can if you want often our attention then is on the stressor. It's on the telephone, it's on the call, it's on the screen where the emails come in. It's if you if you're in a meeting, it's it's on that person who might have your own doors, rolling their eyes. And all of a sudden, we start to run stories in our mind, I should have done that. I don't want to do this. So everybody must be bored because that person's rolling their eyes. And our our concentration then gets narrower and narrower and narrower. Yeah. So and thenStuart Webb 18:16I'm gonna have to agree with you every minute. Thank you knew I had to make that call. All I could think of was the reaction I was gonna get and what he was going to say and how I didn't want to have that discussion. And and suddenly, all I could think about was, Do I have to pick the phone up at all?Debbie Moore 18:33Yeah, so all of a sudden, whatever your intentions were for that day, it's gone out of the window, all your attention to that. And I just and thank you for for sharing that story because it just normalises this happens to us. And then I also want to invite you just to notice anything that you might feel in your body. So for example, any muscle groups that might tense Yeah. Yeah, so just noticing that just very gently from place of curiosity and wonder. Okay, so now I just want to just notice in all of that, so now I want to invite just to shake all that off, and I'm doing it with you just shake it all off that sort of right. So okay. Just Yeah, that's better. Okay. So now once we invite you to just make a shift, and you see, or if you're standing or if you're walking, and just think about you when you're at your best. And it might be for example, when you're cheering these these causes podcasts call Stuart, or it might be somebody who is out just having a walk and connecting with nature. Or it might be when you listen to music, it might be in your work. It might be when you're playing with your children, whatever. Just Just connect with you when you're at your best. And as you do that just seemed like to take a deep breath and as if you were breathing all the way down into your hips, down through your legs or the soles of your feet. Okay? Connecting with the earth. And just see if you need to make any minor adjustments, even 10% more. What would it be like even if I connect with myself even 10% More, and just taking a deep breath. And for some of us, we might actually want to do either Wonderwoman or Superman pose currently what Superman does, but no wonder woman goes like that and just lifts her head up a little bit and just have your chin just tilted up a little bit. And now take a deep breath. Once you do that, as you connect to you at your best, just feel the space as if the space and you've been supported from behind. And now, just in lighting to put up retention kind of out there a little bit on the horizon. Not too far, not too close. Now, I invite you to think about that telephone call? Or that email coming in? Or that person who's rolled their eyes in the meeting? And I wouldn'tStuart Webb 21:06think about it, you feel so much less worried about it.Debbie Moore 21:10And when you feel in less worried about it, what options does that give you? Oh,Stuart Webb 21:16what a good question. I can I can choose not to be angry when they make the comment I know they're gonna make because why do I need to be angry?Debbie Moore 21:28And what I'm hearing you say there, it gives you choice. It actually gives you choice about how to respond. And actually yeah, that person might be angry. And that might be legitimate. But that then might inform your response that might then take the conversation in a totally different direction to the direction it would have gone. So I just invite sorry, gone.Stuart Webb 21:53No, no, I'm just taking a lovely deep breath, Debbie.Debbie Moore 21:57You're welcome to do so. Is your podcast after all. So I just didn't like people. If that resonates for you just play with that and practice. It's just ah, and just getting to this place of I wonder what might that be how I respond to that telephone, call that email or event just expand a little and look beyond that person who's rolling their eyes. I wonder what my next step might be from there. So whatStuart Webb 22:27a lovely exercise. Thank you. Brilliant, brilliant exercise, I almost hate to ask you the question that I've got in my mind now, because it'll break the spell, but I'm gonna do it because that's the format of the coffee of the five questions over coffee. And my fifth question is, there is a question that I should have asked you by now. And I haven't. So what's the question? Please don't let it be. What is the email that what is the telephone call that I should have responded I had to make? Because that would be very cool. What is the question I should have asked you at this stage, which you are wanting me to ask. And then once you've, you've asked the question, then obviously you need to answer it for us.Debbie Moore 23:07Okay, so I'm not cruel. So I won't ask you that question. What I would do I'd get, I'd get really curious. And I'd challenge me and I would say, Okay, do you want your talk? And if you do what you talk, then what's the help and support? Or what's what's inspiring you to get to the next level in your life right now? Because like everybody else, I'm on my, I'm on my own growth edge. And my answer to that would be two things. One is this I'm in, in part of a leadership mastermind group with a global with some incredible global leaders, Athena leadership mastermind to try and raise my own level and my own contribution, my own thinking. And the other thing. Someone last week, introduced me to a woman, a woman's work, who I'd never ever heard of before. Until that time, Dr. Edith Eger, and Dr. Edith is 93 years old. She'd been in outfits, and she is incredible. Listening to her on the podcast, she has two books, the first one she wrote in 2017. And she put a publish another one three years ago at the age of 90, the choice and the gift. And both of those I've ordered, because I'm constantly up levelling, I'm a lifelong learner, and actually kind of share one more, please do the book that I'm reading right now is called the people part by Annie Hyman, what? And the hymens and the Hammonds what talks to as moving into this place of self leadership, rather than self protection and the benefit of that for people and organisationsStuart Webb 25:01I love I love that. And I will be I will be looking into certainly two of those books because they sound absolutely incredible. One of the reasons I should be looking into one of them is that I spent a day. And I expect in November of 2022, and it is a trip, I believe everybody should take. Because you learn a lot about yourself by looking at the that picture and whether or not you could choose to take away from that a positive or negative experience. If you can choose to take a positive from that, then you have achieved more or less things, Debbie, I'm going to thank you so much for spending those few minutes with us, and for taking us through that lovely exercise. And I do hope people, when they hear the replay of this, spend a few minutes thinking about making those choices, when you get that phone call, or when you have to make that phone call when you get that email or indeed, when you get bad news or whatever. Take the moment to just centre yourself and do the exercise to choose how to respond because that choice is so important to us. And thank you so much for sharing it.Debbie Moore 26:12See that. And thank you very much for your time today and having me on the podcast. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.Stuart Webb 26:18It's no problem. Listen, I'm just going to say one thing, if you would like to get onto our mailing list so that you can get on and hear when the these are being done live and join us and watching participate in those discussions that we've just had. Go to the link at the bottom of the page, TCA dot FYI, that's TTA dot F where forward slash subscribe that just comes through to me, I put you on the mailing list, and I send you an email most Tuesday mornings with the who's on the podcast interview live this week. Debbie, thank you so much. I'm looking forward to seeing how your mastermind group that you're putting together in May goes. I sincerely hope that people will take advantage of coming back to you about that because I think it'd be a brilliant opportunity.Debbie Moore 27:06Thank you so much to do it. And thank you for having me on for my very very first podcast on live.Stuart Webb 27:12It's been a pleasure to be thank you so much. Thank you Stu out see you again soon. Bye bye Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you'll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don't get along and why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I've learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.Here are some resources related to our conversation: Learn more about Dr. Sherrie AllCenters for Cognitive WellnessSherrie All, PhDThe Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhDLearn More About MemoryWorking Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and EducationMemory - Harvard HealthCognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on AgingWorking Memory: Take Note of Your Child's ChallengesHow to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James ClearContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningEp 16_ Improve Your Memory_ Neuroscience Strategies for a He...Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:24AM • 58:42SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, strategies, memory, brain, book, neuropsychologist, called, attention, dementia, learning, important, exercise, brain cells, stress, systems, helping, alzheimer, hannah, clinicians, sleepSPEAKERSSherrie All, PhD, Hannah ChoiHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of si

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

I had a fascinating discussion about Robert Moses and The Power Broker with Professor Kenneth T. Jackson.He's the pre-eminent historian on NYC and author of Robert Moses and The Modern City: The Transformation of New York.He answers:* Why are we so much worse at building things today?* Would NYC be like Detroit without the master builder?* Does it take a tyrant to stop NIMBY?Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you end up enjoying this episode, I would be super grateful if you share it, post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast.Timestamps(0:00:00) Preview + Intro(0:11:13) How Moses Gained Power(0:18:22) Moses Saved NYC?(0:27:31) Moses the Startup Founder?(0:32:34) The Case Against Moses Highways(0:51:24) NIMBYism(1:03:44) Is Progress Cyclical(1:12:36) Friendship with Caro(1:20:41) Moses the Longtermist?.TranscriptThis transcript was produced by a program I wrote. If you consume my podcast via transcripts, let me know in the comments if this transcript was (or wasn't) an adequate substitute for the human edited transcripts in previous episodes.0:00:00 Preview + IntroKenneth Jackson 0:00:00Robert Moses represented a past, you know, a time when we wanted to build bridges and super highways and things that pretty much has gone on. We're not building super highways now. We're not building vast bridges like Moses built all the time. Had Robert Moses not lived, not done what he did, New York would have followed the trail of maybe Detroit. Essentially all the big roads, all the bridges, all the parks, the United Nations, Lincoln Center, the World's Fairs of 1939 and 1964, and hundreds of other things he built. And I think it was the best book I ever read. In broad strokes, it's correct. Robert Moses had more power than any urban figure in American history. He built incredible monuments. He was ruthless and arrogant and honest. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:54I am really, really excited about this one. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Kenneth T. Jackson about the life and legacy of Robert Moses. Professor Jackson is the preeminent historian on New York City. He was the director of the Herbert H. Lehman Center for American History and the Jock Barzun Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University, where he has also shared the Department of History. And we were discussing Robert Moses. Professor Jackson is the author and editor of Robert Moses and the Modern City, the Transformation of New York. Professor Jackson, welcome to the podcast.Kenneth Jackson 0:01:37Well, thank you for having me. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:40So many people will have heard of Robert Moses and be vaguely aware of him through the popular biography of him by Robert Caro, the power broker. But most people will not be aware of the extent of his influence on New York City. Can you give a kind of a summary of the things he was able to get built in New York City?Kenneth Jackson 0:02:03One of the best comparisons I can think of is that our Caro himself, when he compared him to Christopher Wren in London, he said, if you would see his monument, look around. It's almost more easier to talk about what Moses didn't do than what he did do. If you all the roads, essentially all the big roads, all the bridges, all the parks, the United Nations, Lincoln Center, the World's Fairs of 1939 and 1964, and hundreds of other things he built. I mean, he didn't actually do it with his own two hands, but he was in charge. He got it done. And Robert Caro wrote a really great book. I think the book was flawed because I think Caro only looked at Moses's own documents and Moses had a very narrow view of himself. I mean, he thought he was a great man, but I mean, he didn't pay any attention to what was going on in LA very much, for example. But clearly, by any standard, he's the greatest builder in American history. There's nobody really in second place. And not only did he build and spend this vast amount of money, he was in power for a long time, really a half century more or less. And he had a singular focus. He was married, but his personal life was not important to him. He did it without scandal, really, even Caro admits that he really died with less than he started with. So I mean, he wanted power, and boy, did he have power. He technically was subservient to governors and mayors, but since he built so much and since he had multiple jobs, that was part of his secret. He had as many as six, eight, ten different things at once. If the mayor fired him or got rid of him, he had all these different ways, which he was in charge of that the mayor couldn't. So you people were afraid of him, and they also respected him. He was very smart, and he worked for a dollar a year. So what are you going to get him for? As Caro says, nobody is ready to be compared with Robert Moses. In fact, compares him with an act of nature. In other words, the person you can compare him with is God. That's the person. He put the rivers in. He put the hills in. He put the island in. Compare that to Moses, what Moses did. No other person could compare to that. That's a little bit of exaggeration, but when you really think about Robert Moses and you read the Power Broker, you are stunned by the scope of his achievement. Just stunned. And even beyond New York, when we think of the interstate highway system, which really starts in 1954, 55, 56, and which is 40-something thousand miles of interstate highways, those were built by Moses' men, people who had in their young life had worked with the parkways and expressways in and around New York City. So they were ready to go. So Moses and Moses also worked outside New York City, mostly inside New York City, but he achieved so much. So probably you need to understand it's not easy to get things done in New York. It's very, very dense, much twice as dense as any place in the United States and full of neighborhoods that feel like little cities and are little cities and that don't want change even today. A place like Austin, for example, is heavy into development, not New York. You want to build a tall building in New York, you got to fight for it. And the fact that he did so much in the face of opposition speaks a lot to his methods and the way he… How did Moses do what he did? That is a huge question because it isn't happening anymore, certainly not in New YorkDwarkesh Patel 0:06:22City. Yeah. And that's really why I actually wanted to talk to you and talk about this book because the Power Broker was released in 1974 and at the time New York was not doing well, which is to put it mildly. But today the crisis we face is one where we haven't built significant public works in many American cities for decades. And so it's interesting to look back on a time when we could actually get a lot of public works built very quickly and very efficiently and see if maybe we got our characterization of the people at the time wrong. And that's where your 2007 book comes in. So I'm curious, how was the book received 50 years after, or I guess 40 years after the Power Broker was released? What was the reception like? How does the intellectual climate around these issues change in that time?Kenneth Jackson 0:07:18The Power Broker is a stunning achievement, but you're right. The Power Broker colon Robert Moses and the fall of New York. He's thinking that in the 1970s, which is the… In New York's 400-year history, we think of the 1970s as being the bottom. City was bankrupt, crime was going up, corruption was all around. Nothing was working very well. My argument in the subtitle of the 2007 book or that article is Robert Moses and the rise of New York. Arguing that had Robert Moses not lived, not done what he did, New York would have followed the trail of maybe Detroit and St. Louis and Cincinnati and Pittsburgh and most cities in the Northeast and Midwest, which really declined. New York City really hasn't declined. It's got more people now than it ever did. It's still a number one city in the world, really, by most of our standards. It's the global leader, maybe along with London. At one point in the 1980s, we thought it might be Tokyo, which is the largest city in the world, but it's no longer considered competitive with New York. I say London too because New York and London are kind of alone at the top. I think Robert Moses' public works, activities, I just don't know that you could have a New York City and not have expressways. I don't like the Cross Bronx expressway either and don't want to drive on it. How can you have a world in which you can't go from Boston to San Francisco? You had to have it. You have to have some highways and Carroll had it exactly wrong. He talked about Moses and the decline of public transit in New York. Actually what you need to explain in New York is why public transit survived in New York, wherein most other American cities, the only people who use public transit are the losers. Oh, the disabled, the poor and stuff like that. In New York City, rich people ride the subway. It's simply the most efficient way to get around and the quickest. That question needs, some of the things need to be turned on its head. How did he get it done? How did he do it without scandal? I mean, when you think about how the world is in our time, when everything has either a financial scandal or a sexual scandal attached to it, Moses didn't have scandals. He built the White Stone Bridge, for example, which is a gigantic bridge connecting the Bronx to Queens. It's beautiful. It was finished in the late 1930s on time and under budget. Actually a little earlier. There's no such thing as that now. You're going to do a big public works project and you're going to do it on time. And also he did it well. Jones Beach, for example, for generations has been considered one of the great public facilities on earth. It's gigantic. And he created it. You know, I know people will say it's just sand and water. No, no, it's a little more complicated than that. So everything he did was complicated. I mean, I think Robert Caro deserves a lot of credit for doing research on Moses, his childhood, his growing up, his assertion that he's the most important person ever to live in and around New York. And just think of Franklin Roosevelt and all the people who lived in and around New York. And Moses is in a category by himself, even though most Americans have never heard of Robert Moses. So his fame is still not, that book made him famous. And I think his legacy will continue to evolve and I think slightly improve as Americans realize that it's so hard, it's hard to build public works, especially in dense urban environments. And he did it.0:11:13 How Moses Gained PowerDwarkesh Patel 0:11:33Yeah. There's so much to talk about there. But like one of the interesting things from the Power Broker is Caro is trying to explain why governors and mayors who were hesitant about the power that Moses was gaining continued to give him more power. And there's a section where he's talking about how FDR would keep giving him more positions and responsibilities, even though FDR and Moses famously had a huge enmity. And he says no governor could look at the difficulty of getting things built in New York and not admire and respect Moses' ability to do things, as he said, efficiently, on time, under budget, and not need him, essentially. But speaking of scandal, you talked about how he didn't take salary for his 12 concurrent government roles that he was on. But there's a very arresting anecdote in the Power Broker where I think he's 71 and his daughter gets cancer. And for the first time, I think he had to accept, maybe I'm getting the details wrong, but he had to accept salary for working on the World's Fair because he didn't have enough. He was the most powerful person in New York, and he didn't have enough money to pay for his daughter's cancer. And even Caro himself says that a lot of the scandals that came later in his life, they were just kind of trivial stuff, like an acre of Central Park or the Shakespeare in the park. Yeah, it wasn't... The things that actually took him down were just trivial scandals.Kenneth Jackson 0:13:07Well, in fact, when he finally was taken down, it took the efforts of a person who was almost considered the second most powerful person in the United States, David Rockefeller, and the governor of New York, both of whom were brothers, and they still had a lot of Moses to make him kind of get out of power in 1968. But it was time. And he exercised power into his 70s and 80s, and most of it was good. I mean, the bridges are remarkable. The bridges are gorgeous, mostly. They're incredible. The Throgs Neck Bridge, the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, the Triborough Bridge, they're really works of art. And he liked to build things you could see. And I think the fact that he didn't take money was important to it. You know, he was not poor. I wouldn't say he's not wealthy in New York terms, but he was not a poor person. He went to Yale as a Jewish person, and let's say in the early 20th century, that's fairly unusual and he lived well. So we can't say he's poor, but I think that Carol was right in saying that what Moses was after in the end was not sex and not power, and not sex and not money. Power. He wanted power. And boy, did he get it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:37Well, there's a good review of the book from, I'm not sure if I remember the last name, but it was Philip Lopgate or something. Low paid, I think.Kenneth Jackson 0:14:45Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:46And he made a good point, which was that the connotation of the word power is very negative, but it's kind of a modern thing really to have this sort of attitude towards power that like somebody who's just seeking it must necessarily have suspicious motivations. If Moses believed, and in fact, he was probably right in believing that he was just much more effective at building public works for the people that live in New York, was it irrational of him or was it selfish of him to just desire to work 14 hour days for 40 years on end in order to accumulate the power by which he could build more public works? So there's a way of looking at it where this pursuit of power is not itself troubling.Kenneth Jackson 0:15:36Well, first of all, I just need to make a point that it's not just New York City. I mean, Jones Beach is on Long Island. A lot of those highways, the Northern State Parkway, the Southern State Parkway are built outside the city and also big projects, the Power Authority in upstate New York. He also was consultant around the world in cities and transportation. So his influence was really felt far beyond New York City. And of course, New York City is so big and so important. I think also that we might want to think about, at least I think so, what do I say, the counterfactual argument. Can you imagine? I can remember when I was in the Air Force, we lived next door to a couple from New York City. We didn't know New York City at the time. And I can't remember whether she or he was from the Bronx or Brooklyn, but they had they made us understand how incredibly much he must have loved her to go to Brooklyn or the Bronx to see her and pick her up for days and stuff like this. You couldn't get there. I mean, it would take you three hours to go from the Rockaways in Brooklyn to somewhere in the Northern Bronx. But the roads that Moses built, you know, I know at rush hour they're jammed, but you know, right this minute on a Sunday, you can whiz around New York City on these expressways that Moses built. It's hard to imagine New York without. The only thing Moses didn't do was the subway, and many people have criticized him because the subways were deteriorated between the time they were built in the early part of the 20th century in 1974 when Carol wrote to Power Broker. But so had public transit systems all over the United States. And the public transit system in New York is now better than it was 50 years ago. So that trajectory has changed. And all these other cities, you know, Pittsburgh used to have 600,000 people. Now it has 300,000. Cleveland used to have 900,000 and something. Now it's below five. Detroit used to have two million. Now it's 600 something thousand. St. Louis used to have 850,000. Now it's three hundreds. I mean, the steep drop in all these other cities in the Midwest and Northeast, even Washington and even Boston and Philadelphia, they all declined except New York City, which even though it was way bigger than any of them in 1950 is bigger now than it was then. More people crammed into this small space. And Moses had something to do with that.0:18:22 Would NYC Have Fallen Without Moses?Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:22Yeah, yeah, yeah. You write in the book and I apologize for quoting you back to yourself, but you write, had the city not undertaken a massive program of public works between 1924 and 1970, had it not built the arterial highway system and had it not relocated 200,000 people from old law tenements to new public housing projects, New York would not have been able to claim in the 1990s that it was a capital of the 20th century. I would like to make this connection more explicit. So what is the reason for thinking that if New York hadn't done urban renewal and hadn't built the more than 600 miles of highways that Moses built there, that New York would have declined like these other cities in the Northeast and the Midwest?Kenneth Jackson 0:19:05Well, I mean, you could argue, first of all, and friends of mine have argued this, that New York is not like other cities. It's a world city and has been and what happens to the rest of the United States is, I accept a little bit of that, but not all of it. You say, well, New York is just New York. And so whatever happens here is not necessarily because of Moses or different from Detroit, but I think it's important to realize its history has been different from other American cities. Most American cities, especially the older cities, have been in relative decline for 75 years. And in some ways New York has too. And it was its relative dominance of the United States is less now than because there's been a shift south and west in the United States. But the prosperity of New York, the desire of people to live in it, and after all, one of its problems is it's so expensive. Well, one reason it's expensive is people want to live there. If they didn't want to live there, it would be like Detroit. It'd be practically free. You know what I mean? So there are answers to these issues. But Moses' ways, I think, were interesting. First of all, he didn't worry about legalities. He would start an expressway through somebody's property and dare a judge to tell him to stop after the construction had already started. And most of the time, Moses, he was kind of like Hitler. It was just, I don't mean to say he was like Hitler. What I mean is, but you have such confidence. You just do things and dare other people to change it. You know what I mean? I'm going to do it. And most people don't have that. I think there's a little bit of that in Trump, but not as much. I mean, I don't think he has nearly the genius or brains of Moses. But there's something to self-confidence. There's something to having a broad vision. Moses liked cities, but he didn't like neighborhoods or people. In other words, I don't think he loved New York City. Here's the person who is more involved. He really thought everybody should live in suburbs and drive cars. And that was the world of the future. And he was going to make that possible. And he thought all those old law tenements in New York, which is really anything built before 1901, were slums. And they didn't have hot and cold water. They often didn't have bathrooms. He thought they should be destroyed. And his vision was public housing, high-rise public housing, was an improvement. Now I think around the United States, we don't think these high-rise public housing projects are so wonderful. But he thought he was doing the right thing. And he was so arrogant, he didn't listen to people like Jane Jacobs, who fought him and said, you're saying Greenwich Village is a slum? Are you kidding me? I mean, he thought it was a slum. Go to Greenwich Village today. Try to buy anything for under a million dollars. I mean, it doesn't exist. You know what I mean? I mean, Greenwich Village, and he saw old things, old neighborhoods, walking, is hopelessly out of date. And he was wrong. He was wrong about a lot of his vision. And now we understand that. And all around the country, we're trying to revitalize downtowns and reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and gasoline and cars. But Moses didn't see the world that way. It's interesting. He never himself drove a car. Can you believe that the man who had more influence on the American car culture, probably even than Henry Ford, himself was always driven. He was chauffeured. In fact, he was so busy that Carol talks about him as having two limousines behind each other. And he would have a secretary in one, and he would be dealing with business and writing letters and things like this. And then she would have all she could do. They would pull off to the side of the road. She would get out of his car. The car that was following would discharge the secretary in that car. They would switch places. And the fresh secretary would get in the backseat, Moses, and they would continue to work. And the first secretary would go to type up whatever she had to do. He worked all the time. He really didn't have much of a private life. There are not many people like Robert Moses. There are people like Robert Moses, but not so many, and he achieved his ideal. I think that there are so many ironies there. Not only did he not drive himself, he didn't appreciate so much the density of New York, which many people now love, and it's getting more dense. They're building tall buildings everywhere. And he didn't really appreciate the diversity, the toleration. He didn't care about that, but it worked. And I just think we have to appreciate the fact that he did what was impossible, really impossible, and nobody else could have done what he did. And if we hadn't done it then, he sure as heck wouldn't be able to do it in the 21st century, when people are even more litigious. You try to change the color of a door in New York City, and there'll be—you try to do something positive, like build a free swimming pool, fix up an old armory and turn it into a public—there'll be people who'll fight you. I'm not kidding this. And Moses didn't care. He says, I'm going to do this. When he built the Cross Bronx Expressway, which in some ways is—it was horrible what he did to these people, but again, Carol mischaracterizes what happened. But it's a dense working class—let's call it Jewish neighborhood—in the early 1950s. And Roses decides we need an interstate highway or a big highway going right through it. Well, he sent masses of people letters that said, get out in 90 days. He didn't mean 91 days. He meant—he didn't mean let's argue about it for four years. Let's go to legit—Moses meant the bulldozers will be bulldozing. And that kind of attitude, we just don't have anymore. And it's kind of funny now to think back on it, but it wasn't funny to the people who got evicted. But again, as I say, it's hard to imagine a New York City without the Cross Bronx Expressway. They tore down five blocks of dense buildings, tore them down, and built this road right through it. You live—and they didn't worry about where they were going to rehouse them. I mean, they did, but it didn't work. And now it's so busy, it's crowded all the time. So what does this prove? That we need more roads? But you can't have more roads in New York because if you build more roads, what are you going to do with the cars? Right now, the problem is there are so many cars in the city, there's nothing to do. It's easy to get around in New York, but what are you going to do with the car? You know, the car culture has the seeds of its own destruction. You know, cars just parking them or putting them in a garage is a problem. And Moses didn't foresee those. He foreseed you're all going to live in the Long Island suburbs or Westchester suburbs or New Jersey suburbs. Park your car in your house and come in the city to work. Now, the city is becoming a place to live more than a place to work. So what they're doing in New York as fast as they can is converting office buildings into residential units. He would never have seen that, that people would want to live in the city, had options that they would reject a single family house and choose high rise and choose the convenience of going outside and walking to a delicatessen over the road, driving to a grocery store. It's a world he never saw.0:27:31 Moses the Startup Founder?Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:31Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like the thing you pointed out earlier about him having the two limousines and then the enormous work ethic and then the 90 day eviction. I mean, I'm a programmer and I can recognize this trope immediately. Right. Robert Moses was a startup founder, but in government, you know, that attitude is like, yeah, it's like Silicon Valley. That's like we all recognize that.Kenneth Jackson 0:27:54And I think we should we should we should go back to what you said earlier about why was it that governors or mayors couldn't tell him what to do? Because there are many scenes in the power broker where he will go to the mayor who wants to do something else. And Moses would, damn it. He'd say, damn it, throw his pages on the desk and say, sign this. This is my resignation. You know, OK. And I'm out of here because the mayors and governors love to open bridges and highways and and do it efficiently and beautifully. And Moses could do that. Moses could deliver. And the workers loved him because he paid union wages, good wages to his workers. And he got things done and and things like more than 700 playgrounds. And it wasn't just grand things. And even though people criticize the 1964 World's Fair as a failure and financially it was a failure, but still tens of millions of people went there and had a good time. You know, I mean, even some of the things were supposedly were failures. Failures going to home, according to the investment banker, maybe, but not to the people who went there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:20Right. Yeah. And I mean, the point about the governors and mayors needing him, it was especially important to have somebody who could like work that fast. If you're going to get reelected in four years or two years, you need somebody who can get public works done faster than they're done today. Right. If you want to be there for the opening. Yeah, exactly.Kenneth Jackson 0:29:36And it's important to realize, to say that Moses did try public office once.Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:41Yeah.Kenneth Jackson 0:29:42And I think it's true that he lost by more than anybody in the history of New York. He was not, you know, he was not an effective public speaker. He was not soft and friendly and warm and cuddly. That's not Robert Moses. The voters rejected him. But the people who had power and also Wall Street, because you had to issue bonds. And one of the ways that Moses had power was he created this thing called the Traverse Bridge and Tunnel Authority to build the Traverse Bridge. Well, now, if in Portland, Oregon, you want to build a bridge or a road, you issue a couple hundred million dollars worth of bonds to the public and assign a value to it. Interest rate is paid off by the revenue that comes in from the bridge or the road or whatever it is. Normally, before, normally you would build a public works and pay for it itself on a user fees. And when the user fees paid it off, it ended. But what Moses, who was called the best bill drafter in Albany, which was a Moses term, he said he was somewhere down in paragraph 13, Section G, say, and the chairman can only be removed for cause. What that meant was when you buy a bond for the Traverse Bridge or something else, you're in a contract, supported by the Supreme Court. This is a financial deal you're making with somebody. And part of the contract was the chairman gets to stay unless he does something wrong. Well, Moses was careful not to do anything wrong. And it also would continue. You would get the bond for the Traverse Bridge, but rather than pay off the Traverse Bridge, he would build another project. It would give him the right to continually build this chain of events. And so he had this massive pot of money from all these initially nickels and dimes. Brazil made up a lot of money, the 30s and 40s and 50s and 60s, to spend more money and build more bridges and build more roads. And that's where he had his power. And the Wall Street, the big business loved him because they're issuing the bonds. The unions loved him because they're paying the investors. Now what Carroll says is that Moses allowed the investors an extra quarter percent, I think a quarter percent or half percent on bonds, but they all sold out. So everybody was happy. And was that crooked? It wasn't really illegal. But it's the way people do that today. If you're issuing a bond, you got to figure out what interest am I going to pay on this that will attract investors now.0:32:34 The Case Against Moses HighwaysDwarkesh Patel 0:32:34And the crucial thing about these tales of graft is that it never was about Moses trying to get rich. It was always him trying to push through a project. And obviously that can be disturbing, but it is a completely different category of thing, especially when you remember that this was like a corrupt time in New York history. It was like after Tammany Hall and so on. So it's a completely different from somebody using their projects to get themselves rich. But I do want to actually talk in more detail about the impact of these roads. So obviously we can't, the current system we have today where we just kind of treat cities as living museums with NIMBYism and historical preservation, that's not optimal. But there are examples, at least of Carroll's, about Moses just throwing out thousands of people carelessly, famously in that chapter on the one mile, how Moses could have diverted the cross Bronx expressway one mile and prevented thousands of people from getting needlessly evicted. So I'm just going to list off a few criticisms of his highway building and then you can respond to them in any order you want. So one of the main criticisms that Carroll makes is that Moses refused to add mass transit to his highways, which would have helped deal with the traffic problem and the car problem and all these other problems at a time when getting the right of way and doing the construction would have been much cheaper. Because of his dislike for mass transit, he just refused to do that. And also the prolific building of highways contributed to urban sprawl, it contributed to congestion, it contributed to neighborhoods getting torn apart if a highway would crossKenneth Jackson 0:34:18them.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:19So a whole list of criticisms of these highways. I'll let you take it in any order you want.Kenneth Jackson 0:34:27Well first of all, Moses response was, I wasn't in charge of subways. So if you think the subways deteriorated or didn't build enough, find out who was in charge of them and blame that person. I was in charge of highways and I built those. So that's the first thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:41But before you answer that, can I just ask, so on that particular point, it is true that he wasn't in charge of mass transit, but also he wasn't in charge of roads until he made himself responsible for roads, right? So if he chose to, he could have made himself responsible for mass transit and taken careKenneth Jackson 0:34:56of it. Maybe, although I think the other thing about it is putting Moses in a broader historical concept. He was swimming with the tide of history. In other words, history when he was building, was building Ford Motor Company and General Motors and Chrysler Corporation and building cars by the millions. I mean, the automobile industry in the United States was huge. People thought any kind of rail transit was obsolete and on the way out anyway. So let's just build roads. I mean, that's what the public wanted. He built what the public wanted. It's not what I was looking historically. I don't think we did the right thing, but we needed to join the 20th century. New York could have stayed as a quaint, I don't know, quaint is not the right word, but it's a distinctly different kind of place where everybody walks. I just don't think it would have been the same kind of city because there are people who are attached to their cars in New York. And so the sprawl in New York, which is enormous, nobody's saying it wasn't, spreads over 31 counties, an area about as large as the state of Connecticut, about as large as the Netherlands is metropolitan New York. But it's still relatively, I don't want to say compact, but everybody knows where the center is. It's not that anybody grows up in New York at 16 and thinks that the world is in some mall, you know, three miles away. They all know there is a center and that's where it is. It's called Manhattan. And that's New York and Moses didn't change that for all of his roads. There's still in New York a definite center, skyscrapers and everything in the middle. And it's true, public transit did decline. But you know those, and I like Chicago, by the way, and they have a rail transit from O'Hare down to Dan Ryan, not to Dan Ryan, but the JFK Expressway, I think. And it works sort of, but you got to walk a ways to get on. You got to walk blocks to get in the middle of the expressway and catch the train there. It's not like in New York where you just go down some steps. I mean, New York subway is much bigger than Chicago and more widely used and more. And the key thing about New York, and so I think what Carol was trying to explain and your question suggests this, is was Moses responsible for the decline of public transit? Well, he was building cars and roads and bridges. So in that sense, a little bit, yes. But if you look at New York compared to the rest of the United States, it used to be that maybe 20 percent of all the transit riders in the United States were in the New York area. Now it's 40 percent. So if you're looking at the United States, what you have to explain is why is New York different from the rest of the United States? Why is it that when I was chairman or president of the New York Historical Society, we had rich trustees, and I would tell them, well, I got here on a subway or something. They would think, I would say, how do you think I got here? Do you know what I mean? I mean, these are people who are close to billionaires and they're saying they used the subway. If you're in lower Manhattan and you're trying to get to Midtown and it's raining, it's five o'clock, you've got to be a fool to try to get in your own limousine. It isn't going to get you there very quickly. A subway will. So there are reasons for it. And I think Moses didn't destroy public transit. He didn't help it. But his argument was he did. And that's an important distinction, I think. But he was swimming with history. He built what the public wanted. I think if he had built public transit, he would have found it tougher to build. Just for example, Cincinnati built a subway system, a tunnel all through the city. It never has opened. They built it. You can still see the holes in the ground where it's supposed to come out. By the time they built it, people weren't riding trains anymore. And so it's there now and they don't know what to do with it. And that's 80 years ago. So it's a very complicated—I don't mean to make these issues. They're much more complex than I'm speaking of. And I just think it's unfair to blame Moses for the problems of the city. I think he did as much as anybody to try to bring the city into the 21st century, which he didn't live to. But you've got to adopt. You've got to have a hybrid model in the world now. And I think the model that America needs to follow is a model where we reduce our dependence on the cars and somehow ride buses more or use the internet more or whatever it is, but stop using so much fossil fuels so that we destroy our environment. And New York, by far, is the most energy efficient place in the United States. Mainly because you live in tall buildings, you have hot floors. It doesn't really cost much to heat places because you're heating the floor below you and above you. And you don't have outside walls. And you walk. New Yorkers are thinner. Many more people take buses and subways in New York than anywhere else in the United States, not just in absolute terms, in relative terms. So they're helping. It's probably a healthier lifestyle to walk around. And I think we're rediscovering it. For example, if you come to New York between Thanksgiving and Christmas, there's so many tourists in the city. I'm not making this up. That there is gridlock on the sidewalks around. The police have to direct the traffic. And in part, it's because a Detroit grandmother wants to bring her granddaughter to New York to see what Hudson's, which is a great department store in Detroit or in any city. We could be rich as in Atlanta, Fox, G Fox and Hartford. Every city had these giant department and windows where the Santa Claus is and stuff like this. You can still go to New York and see that. You can say, Jane, this is the way it used to be in Detroit. People ringing the bells and looking at the store windows and things like that. A mall can't recapture that. It just can't. You try, but it's not the same thing. And so I think that in a way, Moses didn't not only did he not destroy New York. I think he gets a little bit of credit for saving it because it might have been on the way to Detroit. Again, I'm not saying that it would have been Detroit because Detroit's almost empty. But Baltimore wasn't just Baltimore, it's Cleveland. It's every place. There's nobody there anymore. And even in New York, the department stores have mostly closed, not all of them. And so it's not the same as it was 80 years ago, but it's closer to it than anywhere else.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:16OK, so yes, I'm actually very curious to get your opinion on the following question. Given the fact that you are an expert on New York history and you know, you've written the encyclopedia, literally written the encyclopedia on New York City.Kenneth Jackson 0:42:30800 people wrote the encyclopedia. I just took all the credit for it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:34I was the editor in chief. So I'm actually curious, is Caro actually right that you talked about the importance just earlier about counterfactual history. So I'm curious if Caro is actually right about the claim that the neighborhoods through which Moses built his highways were destroyed in a way that neighborhoods which were in touch by the highways weren't. Sorry for the confusing phrasing there. But basically, was there like a looking back on all these neighborhoods? Is there a clear counterfactual negative impact on the neighborhoods in which Moses built his highways and bridges and so on?Kenneth Jackson 0:43:10Well, Moses, I mean, Caro makes that argument mostly about East Tremont and places like that in the Bronx where the Cross Bronx Expressway passed through. And he says this perfectly wonderful Jewish neighborhood that was not racially prejudiced and everybody was happy and not leaving was destroyed by Moses. Well, first of all, as a historian of New York City, or for that matter, any city, if a student comes to you and says, that's what I found out, you said, well, you know, that runs counter to the experience of every city. So let's do a little more work on that. Well, first of all, if you look at the census tracts or the residential security maps of S.H.A. You know, it's not true. First of all, the Jews were leaving and had nothing to do with the thing. They didn't love blacks. And also, if you look at other Jewish, and the Bronx was called the Jewish borough at the time, those neighborhoods that weren't on the Cross Bronx Expressway all emptied out mostly. So the Bronx itself was a part of New York City that followed the pattern of Detroit and Baltimore and Cleveland. Bronx is now coming back, but it's a different place. So I think it's, well, I've said this in public and I'll pay you for this. Carol wouldn't know those neighborhoods if he landed there by parachute. They're much better than he ever said they were. You know, he acted like if you went outside near the Bronx County Courthouse, you needed a wagon train to go. I mean, I've taken my students there dozens of times and shown them the people, the old ladies eating on the benches and stuff like this. Nobody's mugging them. You know, he just has an outsider's view. He didn't know the places he was writing about. But I think Carol was right about some things. Moses was personally a jerk. You can make it stronger than that, but I mean, he was not your friendly grandfather. He was arrogant. He was self-centered. He thought he knew the truth and you don't. He was vindictive, ruthless, but some of those were good. You know, now his strategies, his strategies in some were good. He made people building a beach or a building feel like you're building a cathedral. You're building something great and I'm going to pay you for it and let's make it good. Let's make it as best as we can. That itself is a real trick. How do you get people to think of their jobs as more than a job, as something else? Even a beach or a wall or something like that to say it's good. He also paid them, so that's important that he does that and he's making improvements. He said he was improving things for the people. I don't know if you want to talk about Jane Jacobs, who was his nemesis. I tend to vote with Jane Jacobs. Jane Jacobs and I agree on a lot of things or did before she died a few years ago. Jane Jacobs saw the city as intricate stores and people living and walking and knowing each other and eyes on the street and all these kinds of things. Moses didn't see that at all. He saw the city as a traffic problem. How do we tear this down and build something big and get people the hell out of here? That was a mistake. Moses made mistakes. What Moses was doing was what everybody in the United States was doing, just not as big and not as ruthless and not as quick. It was not like Moses built a different kind of world that exists in Kansas City. That's exactly what they did in Kansas City or every other city. Blow the damn roads to the black neighborhoods, build the expressway interchanges, my hometown of Memphis crisscrossed with big streets, those neighborhoods gone. They're even more extensive in places like Memphis and Kansas City and New Orleans than they are in New York because New York builds relatively fewer of them. Still huge what he built. You would not know from the power broker that Los Angeles exists. Actually Los Angeles was building freeways too. Or he says that New York had more federal money. Then he said, well, not true. I've had students work on Chicago and Chicago is getting more money per person than New York for some of these projects. Some of the claims, no doubt he got those from Moses' own records. If you're going to write a book like this, you got to know what's going on other places. Anyway, let's go back to your questions.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:10No, no. That was one of the things I was actually going to ask you about, so I was glad to get your opinion on that. You know, actually, I've been preparing for this interview and trying to learn more about the impact of these different projects. I was trying to find the economic literature on the value of these highways. There was a National Bureau of Economic Research paper by Morgan Foy, or at least a digest by Morgan Foy, where he's talking about the economic gains from highways. He says, the gains tend to be largest in areas where roads connect large economic hubs where few alternative routes exist. He goes on to say, two segments near New York City have welfare benefits exceeding $500 million a year. Expanding the Long Island Expressway had an estimated economic value of $719 million, which I think was Moses. He says, of the top 10 segments with the highest rate of return, seven are in New York City area. It turns out that seven of the top 10 most valuable highway segments in America are in New York. Reading that, it makes me suspect that there must have been... The way Cairo paints Moses' planning process, it's just very impulsive and feelings-based and almost in some cases, out of malice towards poor people. Given that a century later, it seems that many of the most valuable tracks of highways were planned and built exactly how Moses envisioned, it makes you think that there was some sort of actual intelligent deliberation and thought that was put into where they were placed.Kenneth Jackson 0:50:32I think that's true. I'm not saying that the automobile didn't have an economic impact. That's what Moses was building for. He would probably endorse that idea. I think that what we're looking at now in the 21st century is the high value put on places that Moses literally thought were something. He was going to run an expressway from Brooklyn through lower Manhattan to New Jersey and knock down all these buildings in Greenwich Village that people love now. Love. Even movie stars, people crowd into those neighborhoods to live and that he saw it as a slum. Well, Moses was simply wrong and Cairo puts him to task for that. I think that's true.0:51:24 The Rise of NIMBYismDwarkesh Patel 0:51:24Okay. Professor Jackson, now I want to discuss how the process of city planning and building projects has changed since Moses' time. We spent some good amount of time actually discussing what it was like, what Moses actually did in his time. Last year, I believe, you wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal talking about how the 27-story building in Manhattan was put in limbo because the parking lot, which we would replace, was part of a historic district. What is it like to actually build a skyscraper or a highway or a bridge or anything of that sort in today's New York City?Kenneth Jackson 0:52:06Well, I do think in the larger context, it's probably fair to say it's tougher to build in New York City than any other city. I mean, yeah, a little precious suburb, you may not deploy a skyscraper, but I mean, as far as the city is concerned, there'll be more opposition in New York than anywhere else.It's more dense, so just to unload and load stuff to build a building, how do you do that? You know, trucks have to park on the street. Everything is more complicated and thus more expensive. I think a major difference between Robert Moses' time and our own, in Robert Moses' time, historic preservation was as yet little known and little understood and little supported. And the view generally was building is good, roads are good, houses are good, and they're all on the way to a more modern and better world. We don't have the same kind of faith in the future that they did. We kind of like it like it is. Let's just sit on it. So I think we should say that Moses had an easier time of it than he would have had he lived today. It still wasn't an easy time, but easier than today. Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:40Well, actually, can you talk more about what that change in, I guess, philosophy has been since then? I feel like that's been one of the themes of this podcast, to see how our cultural attitude towards progress and technology have changed.Kenneth Jackson 0:53:54Well, I think one reason why the power broker, Robert Carroll's famous book, received such popular acclaim is it fits in with book readers' opinions today, which is old is better. I mean, also, you got to think about New York City. If you say it's a pre-war apartment, you mean it's a better apartment. The walls are solid plaster, not fiber or board and stuff like that. So old has a reverence in New York that doesn't have in Japan. In Japan, they tear down houses every 15 years. So it's a whole different thing. We tend to, in this new country, new culture, we tend to value oldness in some places, especially in a place that's old like New York City. I mean, most Americans don't realize that New York is not only the most dense American city and the largest, but also really the oldest. I mean, I know there's St. Augustine, but that's taking the concept of what's a city to a pretty extreme things. And then there's Jamestown and Virginia, but there's nobody there, literally nobody there. And then where the pilgrims landed in Massachusetts, Plymouth plantation, that's totally rebuilt as a kind of a theme park. So for a place that's a city, it's Santa Fe a little bit in New Mexico, but it was a wide place on the road until after World War II. So the places that would be also, if you think cities, New York is really old and it's never valued history, but the historic preservation movement here is very strong.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:33What is the reason for its resurgence? Is it just that, because I mean, it's had a big impact on many cities, right? Like I'm in San Francisco right now, and obviously like you can't tear down one of these Victorian houses to build the housing that like the city massively needs. Why have we like gained a reverence for anything that was built before like 80 years?Kenneth Jackson 0:55:56Because just think of the two most expensive places in the United States that could change a little bit from year to year, but usually San Francisco and New York. And really if you want to make it more affordable, if you want to drop the price of popsicles on your block, sell more popsicles. Have more people selling popsicles and the price will fall. But somehow they say they're going to build luxury housing when actually if you build any housing, it'll put downward pressure on prices, even at super luxury. But anyway, most Americans don't understand that. So they oppose change and especially so in New York and San Francisco on the basis that change means gentrification. And of course there has been a lot of gentrification. In World War II or right after, San Francisco was a working class city. It really was. And huge numbers of short and longshoremen live there. Now San Francisco has become the headquarters really in Silicon Valley, but a headquarters city is a tech revolution and it's become very expensive and very homeless. It's very complex. Not easy to understand even if you're in the middle of it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:57:08Yeah. Yeah. So if we could get a Robert Moses back again today, what major mega project do you think New York needs today that a Moses like figure could build?Kenneth Jackson 0:57:22Well if you think really broadly and you take climate change seriously, as I think most people do, probably to build some sort of infrastructure to prevent rising water from sinking the city, it's doable. You'd have to, like New Orleans, in order to save New Orleans you had to flood Mississippi and some other places. So usually there is a downside somewhere, but you could, that would be a huge project to maybe build a bridge, not a bridge, a land bridge from Brooklyn to Manhattan to prevent water coming in from the ocean because New York is on the ocean. And to think of something like that's really big. Some of the other big infrastructure projects, like they're talking about another tunnel under the river, Hudson River from New Jersey to New York, the problem with that is there are already too many cars in Manhattan. Anything that makes it easier to bring cars into Manhattan because if you've not been to New York you don't really understand this, but there's no place for anything. And if you bring more cars in, what are you going to do with them? If you build parking garages for all the cars that could come into the city, then you'd be building over the whole city. There'd be no reason to come here because it would all be parking garages or parking lots. So New York City simply won't work if you reduce the density or you get rid of underground transportation because it's all about people moving around underneath the streets and not taking up space as they do it. So it won't work. And of course, it's not the only city. Tokyo wouldn't work either or lots of cities in the world won't work increasingly without not just public transportation but underground public transportation where you can get it out of the way of traffic and stuff like that. Moses probably could have done that. He wouldn't have loved it as much as he loved bridges because he wanted you to see what he built. And there was an argument in the power broker, but he didn't really want the Brooklyn battle very tunnel built because he wanted to build a bridge that everybody could see. So he may not have done it with such enthusiasm. I actually believe that Moses was first and foremost a builder. He really wanted to build things, change things. If you said, we'll pay you to build tunnels, I think he would have built tunnels. Who knows? He never was offered that. That wasn't the time in which he lived. Yeah. Okay.Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:04And I'm curious if you think that today to get rid of, I guess the red tape and then the NIMBYism, would it just be enough for one man to accumulate as much influence as Moses had and then to push through some things or does that need to be some sort of systemic reform? Because when Moses took power, of course there was ours also that Tammany Hall machine that he had to run through, right? Is that just what's needed today to get through the bureaucracy or is something more needed?Kenneth Jackson 1:00:31Well, I don't think Robert Moses with all of his talents and personality, I don't think he could do in the 21st century what he did in the middle of the 20th century. I think he would have done a lot, maybe more than anybody else. But also I think his methods, his really bullying messages, really, really, he bullied people, including powerful people. I don't think that would work quite as easy today, but I do think we need it today. And I think even today, we found even now we have in New York, just the beginnings of leftists. I'm thinking of AOC, the woman who led the campaign against Amazon in New York saying, well, we need some development. If we want to make housing more affordable, somebody has got to build something. It's not that we've got more voter because you say you want affordable housing. You got to build affordable housing and especially you got to build more of it. So we have to allow people, we have to overturn the NIMBYism to say, well, even today for all of our concern about environmental change, we have to work together. I mean, in some ways we have to believe that we're in some ways in the same boat and it won't work if we put more people in the boat, but don't make the boat any bigger. Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:59But when people discuss Moses and the power accumulated, they often talk about the fact that he took so much power away from democratically elected officials and the centralized so much power in himself. And obviously the power broker talks a great deal about the harms of that kind of centralization. But I'm curious having studied the history of New York, what are the benefits if there can be one coordinated cohesive plan for the entire city? So if there's one person who's designing all the bridges, all the highways, all the parks, is something more made possible that can be possible if like multiple different branches and people have their own unique visions? I don't know if that question makes sense.Kenneth Jackson 1:02:39That's a big question. And you've got to put a lot of trust into the grand planner, especially if a massive area of 20, 25 million people, bigger than the city, I'm not sure what you're really talking about. I think that in some ways we've gone too far in the ability to obstruct change, to stop it. And we need change. I mean, houses deteriorate and roads deteriorate and sewers deteriorate. We have to build into our system the ability to improve them. And now in New York we respond to emergencies. All of a sudden a water main breaks, the street collapses and then they stop everything, stop the water main break and repair the street and whatever it is. Meanwhile in a hundred other places it's leaking, it's just not leaking enough to make the road collapse. But the problem is there every day, every minute. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.1:03:44 Is Progress CyclicalDwarkesh Patel 1:03:44I'm curious, as a professor, I mean you've studied American history. Do you just see this as a cyclical thing where you have periods where maybe one person has too much power to periods where there's dispersed vitocracy and sclerosis and then you're just going to go through these cycles? Or how do you see that in the grand context of things, how do you see where we are, where we were during Moses and where we might be in the future?Kenneth Jackson 1:04:10Well you're right to say that much of life is cyclical. And there is a swing back and forth. But having said that, I think the person like Robert Moses is unusual, partly because he might have gone on to become a hedge fund person or didn't have hedge funds when he was around. But you know, new competitor to Goldman Sachs, I mean he could have done a lot of things, maybe been a general. He wanted to have power and control. And I think that's harder to accumulate now. We have too much power. You can demonstrate and you can stop anything. We love demonstrations in the United States. We respect them. We see it as a visible expression of our democracy, is your ability to get on the streets and block the streets. But you know, still you have to get to work. I mean at some point in the day you've got to do something. And yeah, Hitler could have done a lot of things if he wanted to. He could have made Berlin into a... But you know, if you have all the power, Hitler had a lot of it. If he turned Berlin into a colossal city, he was going to make it like Washington but half-sive. Well Washington has already got its own issues. The buildings are too big. Government buildings don't have life on the street and stuff like this. Like Hitler would destroy it forever because you build a monumental city that's not for people. And I think that was probably one of Moses' weak points is unlike Jane Jacobs who saw people. Moses didn't see people. He saw bridges. He saw highways. He saw tunnels. He saw rivers. He saw the city as a giant traffic problem. Jane Jacobs, who was a person without portfolio most of her life except of her own powers of judgment and persuasion, she thought, well what is the shoe repairman got to do with the grocery store, got to do with the school, got to do with something else? She saw what Moses didn't see. She saw the intricacies of the city. He saw a giant landscape. She saw the block, just the block.Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:45Yeah there's a common trope about socialist and communist which is that they love humanity in the abstract but they hate people as individuals. And it's like I guess one way to describe Robert Moses. It actually kind of reminds me of one of my relatives that's a doctor and he's not exactly a people person. And he says like, you know, I hate like actually having to talk to the patients about like, you know, like ask them questions. I just like the actual detective work of like what is going on, looking at the charts and figuring out doing the diagnosis. Are you optimistic about New York? Do you think that in the continuing towards the end of the 21st century and into the 22nd century, it will still be the capital of the world or what do you think is the future ofKenneth Jackson 1:07:30the city? Well, The Economist, which is a major publication that comes out of England, recently predicted that London and New York would be in 2100 what they are today, which is the capitals of the world. London is not really a major city in terms of population, probably under 10 million, much smaller than New York and way smaller than Tokyo. But London has a cosmopolitan, heterogeneous atmosphere within the rule of law. What London and New York both offer, which Shanghai doesn't or Hong Kong doesn't at the moment is a system so if you disagree, you're not going to disappear. You know what I mean? It's like there's some level of guarantee that personal safety is sacred and you can say what you want. I think that's valuable. It's very valuable. And I think the fact that it's open to newcomers, you can't find a minority, so minority that they don't have a presence in New York and a physical presence. I mean, if you're from Estonia, which has got fewer people than New York suburbs, I mean individual New York suburbs, but there's an Estonian house, there's Estonian restaurants, there's, you know, India, Pakistan, every place has got an ethnic presence. If you want it, you can have it. You want to merge with the larger community, merge with it. That's fine. But if you want to celebrate your special circumstances, it's been said that New York is everybody's second home because you know if you come to New York, you can find people just like yourself and speaking your language and eating your food and going to your religious institution. I think that's going to continue and I think it's not only what makes the United States unusual, there are a few other places like it. Switzerland is like it, but the thing about Switzerland that's different from the United States is there are parts of Switzerland that are most of it's Swiss German and parts of it's French, but they stay in their one places, you know what I mean? So they speak French here and they speak German there. You know, Arizona and Maine are not that different demographically in the United States. Everybody has shuffled the deck several times and so I think that's what makes New York unique. In London too. Paris a little bit. You go to the Paris underground, you don't even know what language you're listening to. I think to be a great city in the 21st century, and by the way, often the Texas cities are very diverse, San Francisco, LA, very diverse. It's not just New York. New York kind of stands out because it's bigger and because the neighborhoods are more distinct. Anybody can see them. I think that's, and that's what Robert Moses didn't spend any time thinking about. He wasn't concerned with who was eating at that restaurant. Wasn't important, or even if there was a restaurant, you know? Whereas now, the move, the slow drift back towards cities, and I'm predicting that the pandemic will not have a permanent influence. I mean, the pandemic is huge and it's affected the way people work and live and shop and have recreation. So I'm not trying to blow it off like something else, but I think in the long run, we are social animals. We want to be with each other. We need each other, especially if you're young, you want to be with potential romantic partners. But even other people are drawn. Just a few days ago, there was a horrible tragedy in Seoul, Korea. That's because 100,000 young people are drawn to each other. They could have had more room to swing their arms, but they wanted to crowd into this one alley because that's where other people were. They wanted to go where other people were. That's a lot about the appeal of cities today. We've been in cars and we've been on interstate highways. At the end of the day, we're almost like cats. We want to get together at night and sleep on each other or with each other. I think that's the ultimate. It's not for everybody. Most people would maybe rather live in a small town or on the top of a mountain, but there's a percentage of people. Let's call it 25% who really want to be part of the tumble in the tide and want to be things mixed up. They will always want to be in a place like New York. There are other places, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia a little bit. They're not mainly in the United States, but in Europe, Copenhagen. Copenhagen is not a big city, neither is Prague, but they have urbanity. New York has urbanity. I think we don't celebrate urbanity as much as we might. The pure joy of being with others.1:12:36 Friendship with CaroDwarkesh Patel 1:12:36Yeah. I'm curious if you ever got a chance to talk to Robert Caro himself about Moses at someKenneth Jackson 1:12:45point. Robert Caro and I were friends. In fact, when the power broker received an award, the Francis Parkman Prize from the Society of American Historians, it turned out we lived near each other in the Bronx. And I drove him home and we became friends and social friends. And I happened to be with him on the day that Robert Moses died. We were with our wives eating out in a neighborhood called Arthur Avenue. The real Little Italy of New York is in the Bronx. It's also called Be

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual's life in ways both good and bad. So in today's episode, I'll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We'll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I'll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication's role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine's Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

As we walk through the book of Mark this summer we're using a process called Lectio Divina to prayerfully meditate on specific passages. In this first week, we're focusing on Mark 1:35-37. You can follow along below or just listen. For more on this teaching series visit https://www.calvarylg.com/markPreparationFind a place where you can sit comfortably and without distraction. Pay attention to your posture and your breathing. Breathe slowly and deeply. Quiet your mind, giving yourself grace when it wanders. Use the following to guide you through your time with the Lord today.Prayer of InvitationI acknowledge God is with me and I ask Him to speak through the passage I'm about to read.God I know you are with me. Thank you for being here now. I pause to be still and to hear from you in this moment. Holy Spirit speak through the Word and fill my heart with the truth you want me to see, hear and live today.ReadAs I read the passage for today, slowly and out loud, I allow the words to sink deep into my heart and mind.“With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.”Mark 4:33-34[Pause]ReflectAs I prepare to read the passage out loud again, I pause to pray:Father, your Word is living and active and I know You speak through it to your people. Would You highlight a word or phrase You want to share uniquely with me today?“With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.”Mark 4:33-34As I sense God highlight a word or phrase for me, I repeat that word or phrase, several times, quietly in my mind.[Pause]RehearseAs I read the passage out loud one final time, I allow the passage and God's Word for me sink in, I ask him specifically what next step He's asking me to take today.Father, how do you want me to apply this to my life today? Is there something I need to release to you? Is there something I need to repent of and turn back towards You? is there something You're calling me to step into today?“With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.”Mark 4:33-34I write a single sentence that reinforces how he's asking me to apply what I experienced to my life today.[Pause]As I prepare to take my time with the Lord into my day, I remember, Jesus who loves me says:“Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”And I align myself with Jesus, praying the model he used when teaching the disciples, by praying the Lord's prayer:“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."Amen

Recorded LIVE at the Mind Body Soul Magazine Spring Release Party in Aspen Colorado.  Ann O'Brien is AWESOME!  She may be one of the smartest most intuitive people I have met.  And who doesn't like to talk about Tapping Into Some Psychic Abilities! Here are just some of the gems from our conversation:1. How to find and develop your psychic abilities (the 3 secrets!)2. Differentiate between your masculine and feminine energy to solidify your relationship.3. How to discern your purpose in lifeAnn O'Brien is an intuitive energy healer and coach who has been working with clients since 1999. She is the author of two books, "A Woman's Guide to Conscious Love" and "Everyone Is Psychic". Anne teaches intuitive training programs and offers readings and energy clearing sessions to help people find their power within and live their best lives.Find Ann O'Brien here: https://www.annobrienliving.com/Get “Everyone Is Psychic: How to Awaken Your Intuition to Improve Your Relationships, Enrich Your Life & Read Others” here!Administrative: (See episode transcript below)WATCH this episode here: Table Rush Talk Show.Listen on the go at http://TableRush.net. Over 450 episodes and counting!Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Mischa Zvegintzov  00:04Welcome, everybody to the table rush talk show. I am here with Ann O'Brien, who has two books out. This one just came out everybody's psychic. And at the end of this interview, Anne is going to give you the top three secrets, her top three secrets on tapping into your psychic abilities. So be sure to stay till the end. And then the other book we have is a woman's guide to conscious love. And why we are here is to obviously talk about your book, but we're also at the Mind Body Soul spring release in Aspen, Colorado. And I guess technically we're in West Salt, salt, basalt, Colorado, Aspen is up the road a lead off. And we're at the beautiful capital Creek brewery capital tree brewery, which actually is pretty awesome. And a lot of fun, right? Yeah. And then you have submitted our n has submitted articles to mind body soul in the past, but currently, in this magazine you can find and in the resource section, so if you happen to get your hands on Mind, Body Soul, spring 2022. And you want to find an O'Brien who's written these two amazing books. She's in the resource section. But anyway, oh my gosh, like psychic powers. Everyone is psychic. How fun is that? And I'll ask you, where do you want to start? What do you want to talk about? First? What do you what do you? Well, let me start with this. We're gonna start with a woman's guide to conscious love. And what was the inspiration for this book? Ann O'Brien  01:55Oh, my gosh, life. That's that's been a life's journey. I think you know, in terms of what's going on in the world right now I've been I'm an intuitive I'm an energy healer. I've been working with a lot of clients 1000s of clients since 1999. But as you might imagine, more women than men. Yeah. And the biggest question I've been getting is about relationships. And what I was noticing as a pattern was that women would come to me and they'd want to find a relationship with a man or they'd want to make their relationship better with a man they had. But then they were complaining a lot. And they were doing a lot of things to push it away or sabotage it. And I could see on an energetic level. So yeah, on a level that a therapist might not get to, or you know, another relationship advice book that tells you what to do and what to where doesn't get to, I can get to the psychic levels of what's going on. And then in the world, there's been this movement of like, let's bash the patriarchy and let's make men wrong. Yeah, women's power. Women's power is not helpful if we're just pretending to be men. And I would get all these women coming to me like really struggling, because they couldn't figure out how to find their feminine power and bring out the best in the masculine and so that's why I wrote this book. Mischa Zvegintzov  03:07Oh, by that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, and so and so. Like, wow, my I'm just like, My mind is blown right now. Honestly, I'm, I'm thinking you're amazing, obviously. So don't worry any dead spots, spots we can edit out. I have a My first question, or my next question is 1990. When did you start in 1999? Yes, you start this coaching, you start coaching women. What's the catalyst? Oh, go ahead. Ann O'Brien  03:48I started doing readings in 99. I actually started my business and Oh, four. But yeah, it's been a long journey. So Mischa Zvegintzov  03:55Oh, so you're doing like, tell me what you're doing? I guess maybe, yes, Ann O'Brien  04:00I do. One on One readings, like so energetic, intuitive, psychic readings, okay, where I close my eyes, and you tell me what's going on in your life and what you're struggling with and what you want to make better or what you want to manifest, okay. And I look at energetic patterns of you know, either what's going on around you and your energy field that's getting in the way or between you and another person or in your job situation. And then I do energy clearing so I'll be like, oh, there's a dead spot here. There's your mom's energy stuck on you off. And while you're really way off in the future, let's get you back here. So you can manifest so I call you back. I clear your energy. And I can only do that if you want you know if you're ready, like yes, I'm not I don't force it. I don't tell people what they should do. I don't I'm not like a peeping Tom looking at stuff. People don't want to show me I think my clients show me what they want to see or what they want me to see and what they want to hear on what they're ready to show. Mischa Zvegintzov  04:56Cool. And so I love that. Thank you for explaining that for sure. And then do you? Are you I have a friend her name's Brahmin Carrie, we call her DK. She does some of that type of energy clearing and such. She's got a, what's the term I'm looking for? It's not like like a mentor, but it's like a guru. Thank you. So do you have a guru? You Ann O'Brien  05:20don't have a guru? Mischa Zvegintzov  05:22Nothing you should. I was just curious. Yeah, cool. Ann O'Brien  05:25I study for 10 years with some really high level psychic teachers. And yeah, I have studied with gurus in the past, I've tried out a lot of different spiritual things. But yeah, kind of found my own at this point. Mischa Zvegintzov  05:36I'd love it. I actually I like the guru of free. Because he strips away a lot of that. I think how you said it earlier just a minute ago was like, I'm not trying to force you in anything you don't want to do or bring you somewhere you don't want to go. But it's more of just holding space and super open way with this little agenda other than helping or dogma as possible. Is that a good way to say that? Ann O'Brien  06:10I sound like a spiritual empowerment coach. Okay, you know, I help people find their power within I believe we are all infinite beings. And we have these bodies. And so my goal is really how do we get all that we are as these infinite spiritual beings into the body and live as that in the 3d world not to separate and go off into lala land? Mischa Zvegintzov  06:32Gosh, so fun. So 1999, you 9899? What year? Ann O'Brien  06:41Was it? Nine, I got my training and started doing reading. Mischa Zvegintzov  06:44Cool. Was that due to, like hitting bottom in your life? Or did you read an article or what was the catalyst for that? Ann O'Brien  06:55Well, I hit ever since I was a teenager, which was prior to that, I was very sensitive. And I couldn't figure out how to manage it. And I didn't realize that all this stuff I was feeling all the time was in mind. Like, I didn't know that that was a psychic ability, or you know, and we all have it, but I had it a lot, you know, and I do not have a mentor. So that's where I went to, you know, Zen teachers, I went to yoga to yoga teachers tried all these different types of meditation. And then around 99, late 90s, I found this psychic development school and at the time, I was living in Boulder, Colorado, and I just went in there, they had this free healing clinic for the public. Yeah. And I would go get free healings. And then I would go get student readings and pay a little money. And they're like, after why they kept seeing me, they're like, take a class. And I'm like, okay, and you know, it really, really spoke to me, of the all the meditations I had done. It really clicked for me. And I really felt like I was getting somewhere. And then I started learning to do readings. And then I realized, gosh, you know, like, the readings are the easy part. Yeah, hearing out what was me and what wasn't me and living my life accordingly. That was a bigger thing. And then doing readings for people and learning how to interpret what I'm seeing and trusting myself. That was a bigger thing. Mischa Zvegintzov  08:08That's interesting. Can you maybe just give me a minute or two on on on? Like, examples of what you are what's not you? Like? I think that's easy to say. But like, can you give me some flavor around that? Or does that make sense? Ann O'Brien  08:25Yeah, yeah. Well, like I remember when I was in college, I would get sad every Sunday. Okay, for no reason. Like, there was nothing that happened consistently every Sunday for me. That shouldn't make me sad, right? Yeah. And then after a while, I had this talk with my mom. And she's like, I just wish you would call me on Sundays. Because that's when my mom always or that's when I would always call my mom. When I went off to college, but you're not calling me. I'm like, Thanks for the memo. Like I had no idea. I was expected to call you at least Sunday. But now I know why. I'm sad every Sunday. Yeah, we clear that up. I wasn't sad on Sundays anymore. Mischa Zvegintzov  09:00Yeah. Interesting. I love that. Thank you for that. Yeah. Cool. So you, you you start doing this, you start playing in this arena, you start you sort of, I don't know, fix yourself is right. Or you, you you sort of get aligned? Yeah, you get aligned. And then I imagined friends associates, whatever, like, Hey, can you do that for me? Or Ann O'Brien  09:27rather, how do you how it started? Yeah, school. You know, I was a psychic student. I was in a year long clairvoyant program. And so my friends are like, Oh my God, you're learning to be a psychic. And so I started giving readings, both in the school setting and for friends and family and then it's just kind of Mischa Zvegintzov  09:43cool five year four or five years, years later, you're like, hey, I can do this as a professional. Ann O'Brien  09:49She just kind of became obvious at the time. You know, like, yeah, do this for your job. You never would have thought that but okay, I surrender and Mischa Zvegintzov  09:58your two votes later a woman's guide to conscious love navigating the play of feminine, feminine and masculine or feminine masculine energy in your relationships. And then we've got everyone is psychic, if people want to find you, where we're find these books are Amazon like, Ann O'Brien  10:24so. Probably the easiest thing to remember is everyone is psychic.com. Mischa Zvegintzov  10:28Oh, cool. Awesome. And then, cool. So you you write this book, you've got 1000s of clients, like what's your, what's your? I have two questions. First off, when when were you like, I'm really helping people. When was that? Was that like an aha moment for you? Or was it a slow build? Or does that question make sense? Yeah, Ann O'Brien  10:52I think there was a one moment I think it was once I started doing readings, it just became clear that it was helpful. Yeah. You know, as people would say, when I was a student, like, Oh, my God, you're right. On your right on I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess I can do this. And I teach now I teach intuitive training programs. I have six month program. So I have students training with me over zoom, and some are in the graduate programs. I've had people studying with me now for over a decade. Oh, wow. And I've watched them from the first, you know, few classes to now where they just like even within the first few months, they'll make a huge leap in their confidence, just because they're practicing. And they're getting the feedback that yes, they're right on. Mischa Zvegintzov  11:33Yeah. Wow. And if someone wants to jump in a class, one of your classes or courses, how do they do that? Ann O'Brien  11:39Again, they can go to everyone@psychics.com. And right now, we don't have any new class starting right away, but they can sign up for my mailing list, and then they'll be in the loop. Mischa Zvegintzov  11:49Cool, fantastic. And anything before we move on to your most recent books, there we go. What would you want anything that I didn't ask you, or you would fell feel remiss that you didn't talk about this book? Before we move on? Ann O'Brien  12:08Well, there's tons in here, but I would just say, as a general theme, I don't know if y'all can see there's a river here. And I use this analogy of the river and the river bank. So when people talk about masculine feminine energies, you know, right now it's new, it's trendy to neutralize it all. Like, oh, yeah, we're all like, whatever. Yeah, we all need to give everybody our pronouns and all that because you anyway. Masculine, masculine and feminine. Right? These are real, these are real energies. So we are hold Yes, we all have masculine and feminine within a polarity is real. And we see it in nature. And when people are confused, because I think one of the things going on in the world right now is people are confused. People are wounded. Like we all had a lot of traumas and problems and challenges in our relationships. So to go to has, how do you figure out where's the feminine power? What's the masculine How are you look to nature, and the river is like that divine feminine is flowing and can be small can be big. She's shaped by the riverbank he's mental hold and contain and help direct the flow. Okay, she also shapes and informs how he should hold that space for her. Yeah, right. Yeah. So if we get confused, just like in that's just one example. But that's a theme that I just wanted to point out on the cover. Mischa Zvegintzov  13:26Yeah. Awesome. Do you inspire people all the time? Do you find Ann O'Brien  13:33I think so when I'm not hiding at home and just like meditating, and we were, you know, yes, I put out a lot of energy in my work. So I do need a lot of quiet time. But yes, I feel like when I go out my intention is to just bring bring my light and to help people find their light and yeah, already and cool. Mischa Zvegintzov  13:51I think before we get to the psychic questions of the psychic, dark are the psychic secrets how to tap into your psychic? Because everyone is psychic. Like for someone like you're clearly tapped in or or, you know, you've got you're doing what your soul wants you to do or I don't know if I'm saying that right. But like, how give people off the top of your head like how can people get that seen? Like confidence and and direction that you so clearly have in a body? Wow, Ann O'Brien  14:29that's a big question. Mischa Zvegintzov  14:30It is. I'm sorry to drop that on. Even I'm talking to you. I'm like, Oh my gosh, you have so much amazing stuff going on. And you're inspiring me. So that's why I'm asking you. Yeah. Ann O'Brien  14:45I would say to people that don't feel like they have a sense of their purpose just to look to what have you always been interested in? And sometimes it's not only what you've loved to do, but it's even what you have your challenges been? Hmm that will point to the thing you're here to master and then share. Move I liked it's a quick answer. But that's a huge questions. Mischa Zvegintzov  15:09It's a huge question. Well, I think that that's a great, maybe you could give us an example of how you've seen somebody lean into that. So it's, it's like, I think if I heard you, what you said was, hey, you can either like, look at what you love and dive further into that. But you can also look into what's maybe cause some rough edges or causing you frustration, and lean into that and learn. And then maybe, hey, now you've got to call him by design. Right? Yeah, that's Ann O'Brien  15:42right. Yeah, we get clarity through contrast. Yeah. So this is a random thing. But sometimes in my workshops, I'll give it an exercise where write down 10 things you hate. Yes. And especially as women, we're not taught that it's okay to hate. Okay, we all have those feelings within us. So privately, write down 10 things you hate, and then go, Well, what does that clarify for me that I love or that I value or that I need? That may go beyond the issue of life purpose, but that's really helpful. Mischa Zvegintzov  16:09I love it. It's great. See that, again, write the Ann O'Brien  16:14things you hate. And then next to each one, consider what does that clarify for you that you love that you need or that you value? And then move towards those things? sermon is important. You know, everyone has psyche, that's the big thing that I talk about, and that I teach you about, we're not meant to just be like, I just did whatever is fine. You know, we are individual beings. And we have a purpose. We're like that spark of light. You know, like every flower is unique. Yeah, still a part of God. Mischa Zvegintzov  16:43Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Okay, so we're gonna, you can find this book, Online, a woman's guide to conscious love by Anna O'Brien, at Amazon and all the fun places. Ann O'Brien  16:57You can go to Anna Lyon living.com, or everyone is psychic.com. Okay, perfect. And that'll link to Amazon. on Audible. There's a lot of guided meditations. It's a workbook two. Oh, so for people that want to just close their eyes and not have to refer to a book, I recommend the audible. Mischa Zvegintzov  17:11I'd love it. And do you find people respond well, to the audible? Definitely. Yeah. And so you have a workbook associated with a sorry, Ann O'Brien  17:19within the book. So you can see here, let me see. You know, there's practices. I don't know how much we can see on the camera. But yes, there's places you can write within the book. There's a lot of guided meditations. Yeah. And there's exercises to do, like, close your eyes and put on a song Mischa Zvegintzov  17:36and dance. Oh, it's amazing. I love Ann O'Brien  17:39meditation. Mischa Zvegintzov  17:41I love it. So good. Thank you. Okay, you referenced some you've said psychic, probably 20 or 30 times, as we've been talking here. And what was the inspiration for everyone is psychic. Ann O'Brien  17:56So this is based on the curriculums I've been teaching for over a decade. Wow, wasn't going to write this book. I had another idea of a book I was gonna write after my first book. And then my mother passed away. And I don't know if you are, you know, those watching listening have had parents pass, but it sort of is this moment of like, like, Come to Jesus, like, what's my life? Mischa Zvegintzov  18:18Yes, I've had it. I've been there. Yeah, absolutely. I Ann O'Brien  18:21was like, of course, like, this is the thing, not that it's the only thing I'll ever write about. But this is the thing. I couldn't leave this life. And I'll be here a while. But you know, I just was like, I have to leave this for the world. 18:33Yeah, this is what I know. So well. And what people have been telling me, I helped them with. Ann O'Brien  18:41I went to those, you know, after a few months of processing, you know, I went into my course curriculums, and I put it into a book. And I wrote for about a year and then I published it and you know, Mischa Zvegintzov  18:51yeah, and it's and today, as we record this, it is April 15. And it's been out a week. So this is fresh, hot off the presses. Right. Like this is exciting for you right now. And obviously has a lot of depth and weight and deep meaning for you. Which is beautiful. We Ann O'Brien  19:12hit the Amazon bestseller in six categories already number one and a couple other categories like pretty high. Mischa Zvegintzov  19:19Oh my gosh. Congratulations. Wow, so fun. We'll check out this book. And then like, give me a like, Tell me about it or what are your favorite things or what what do you like to tell people if they like get this book because Ann O'Brien  19:38yeah, so I would say you know, one of my good friends that I grew up with she's like, and you're the most grounded psychic I've ever met. Yeah, and so for people that think this is not for them or they're not sure if it's for them like this is for everyone that's why I call it everyone is psychic. Yeah, I'm hearing no nonsense boots on the ground like this is how you do it. You know, I've taught my nine year old this stuff since she was old. After her whole life basically, first she was old enough, but I believe Mischa Zvegintzov  20:05she's doing energy clearings on you. She's like, mom, so your energy. Ann O'Brien  20:13I remember one time, her dad was traveling and I was alone with her for like a week. I was like, so overwhelmed because I was working too. And I sat down to meditate. And this one, she was like three or four. She walks into the room. And she's like, talking to me as I'm trying to meditate. I'm like, so overwhelmed. She's like, Mama, I can heal you. And she picks up this crystal won. It's in the courtroom. She's waves it up. And I swear I had the deepest meditation I've had in a long time. Mischa Zvegintzov  20:45That's amazing. Yeah. So she's, I mean, talk about confidence. Yeah, that's amazing. Ann O'Brien  20:51stuff early. It's not hard. It's just, we were taught, you know, and I don't want people to struggle into their teens and 20s. Like I did, yeah, not knowing this stuff, not having any reference point or mentorship or information. Because the psychic senses are as normal as all the other senses. Yeah, there's so many ways that I say if you don't use them, they will use you. Yeah, we get overwhelmed. We pick up stuff that's not ours are crying when we're not sad. We're mad when we're not bad. We have a desire, like, I'm thinking one client I had, you talked about life purpose, like he was really he was a mechanic and he came to me and he's like, am I gonna get this promotion? And I didn't even know what he did. I just was like, you don't like your job? Do you? Like all the energy I can feel about his job? And this idea of a promotion was like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I was like, So what do you want to do? He's like, I want to make video games. I'm like, well, let's, let's help you do that, you know, so we can spend our whole life doing something that's not meant for us. Because we're psychic. Yeah. And we're picking up on the expectations, the desires of other people. So that's just the tip of the iceberg. Mischa Zvegintzov  22:01Oh, my gosh, I could talk to you forever. And I know that. Stacy, whenever Stacey comes by in the background, she's like, you gotta give me that. You gotta give me in back. She's gonna jump into the crowd. So I love that I love the confidence been like, Hey, your confidence, like you want competence and what you do, how you interact with the world, how you interact with your partner with your kids, just like a good confidence. Wow. I love that. I do want to release you back to the crowd and let you go talk about your book because we are at body mind soul. magazine spring release party. What would you want to say about this? Like, just to close? Before I send you that? Ann O'Brien  22:53I would say if anyone is trying to figure out how do I start tapping into their psychic abilities. The number one thing is to be playful to go like a kindergartener and go into a state of wonder. And don't discount what you're getting. Because it feels when you're starting. It feels like you're making stuff up. Yeah. And so if you just kind of run with it, and start with small things, like where am I going to find a parking space? Or who just texted me, let me let me just guess and then look, right. And the more you build your confidence with these little things, and just being playful, you'll get more confident. And if you have people in your life that you can bounce it off of or practice giving each other little readings like that's fun to just, you gotta practice and just trust and play with it. Mischa Zvegintzov  23:34I love it. So good. Anne O'Brien. Oh my gosh, get her book. Whoa, get her books. Clearly amazing. This has been such a pleasant surprise. You were kind of added to the queue and I'm so happy to the interview queue. And again, tell everybody where to find you. Ann O'Brien  23:50Yes, go to everyone is psychic.com or an O'Brien living.com. You can find me on social media at an O'Brien. Thank you so much. Thank you

When we look to a professional for support, we may be looking to improve our mental health or confidence, but at a fundamental level, we're really hoping to change our lives. So what does that mean when it comes to Executive Function support? In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you've listened to those episodes already, you'll have heard them share that while it hasn't been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey, so I reached out to Fran Havard, who is a mom of four kids, two of whom have executive function challenges. Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she's one of Beyond BookSmart's EF coaches and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator or, as you'll hear her call it “CC”, by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she's learned and how she manages all of this. Here are the show notes for this episode: Helping our Kids Learn EF SkillsActivities Guide: Enhancing and Practicing Executive Function Skills with Children from Infancy to AdolescenceHelping Kids Who Struggle With Executive FunctionsSmart But Scattered Kids book by Peg Dawson, Ph.D.A Day in the Life of an Elementary Schooler with Executive Function ChallengesFinch App for Android or Apple devicesHelping Ourselves Practice EF SkillsExecutive Skill Challenges: Adults Have Them, Too!Executive Functioning in Adults: The Science Behind Adult CapabilitiesSupport for Adults: New Ebook from an Executive Function Expert by Michael Delman, Beyond BookSmart CEOHow to ADHD YouTube ChannelHow to Work or Study in a Noisy EnvironmentStaying Focused in a Noisy Open Office6 Ways to Minimize Distractions in a Noisy Work EnvironmentWhy Are Power Tools So Loud?Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In past episodes, I spoke with parents of kiddos who are in coaching now, and have made great progress in their own executive function journeys. If you've listened to these episodes already, you'll have heard them share that well. It hasn't been an easy or quick journey, the rewards for both their children and themselves have been tremendously life-changing. I really wanted to explore another perspective on the coaching journey.So I reached out to Fran Havard who is a mom of four kids, two of whom who have executive function challenges. And Fran knows a lot about EF coaching because she is one of Beyond BookSmart's coaches, and she also shares her knowledge with families in the role of coaching coordinator, or as you'll hear her call it "CC" by providing support by answering questions and sharing additional information about the process of change to help families and clients navigate their way through coaching. Fran and I sat down to talk about what she's learned and how she manages all of this. I don't want to give too much away. But as you listen today, you'll hear that recording this episode challenged my attention and cognitive flexibility executive function skills like no other. This episode is authenticity in practice, we are truly keeping it real. Now on to the show. Hi, Fran, thank you so much for being here today. Do you want to start off by telling our listeners a little bit about you and your background?Fran Havard 01:48Sure. My name is Fran and I'm a parent first. I've joked with a lot of people around me that I wear many hats. So when they're interacting with me, they got to make sure I'm wearing the right hat. So if I go to meetings, and I'm in my journalist hat, I have to announce that ahead of time, if I'm in my doctoral classes, I announce that ahead of time. I am a parent first though, for children ages 5, 8, 9, 8? I think he's about to turn nine. So nine and 10 and 12. I have worked with adolescents most of my life. I coach, older us adolescents, usually at 19 starting college. And that is my favorite age group to work with.Hannah Choi 02:34Can you explain a little bit more about the roles that you've played at Beyond BookSmart? Just so we can kind of get a little more understanding about your perspective when it comes to executive function challenges.Fran Havard 02:46So I play two roles at beyond booksmart. One is I work with families as a coaching coordinator. So I sort of as a support with the coaching process, but not in the role of coach. I answer I, you know, explain or narrate the growth process to families and I you know, celebrate the successes when we've met another part of the change process. And we're in a different phase of development, I, you know, communicate what's happening in coaching, I answer questions about, you know, if there's resistance to coaching, what that means and how we overcome those hurdles. And I'm also a coach, so I work, I'm also living the challenges that our coaches are living with and living the successes that we're seeing through this process.Hannah Choi 03:35And, and you're also a parent, do you like I know myself being a parent, I, I bring a lot of what I what I've learned about executive function into my parenting, how does how does, being a coach and a coaching coordinator affect you as a parent?Fran Havard 03:56So actually, how I started coaching is an interesting story. I knew, you know, I was a stay at home parent, I had left teaching. And I was sort of working in virtual ed. And I had a child who was she was, I didn't know what it was, I'd been in teaching for a decade. She was messy. Everything was messy, like the hair, the books, the backpack, everything was all over the place. And I just started like, I mean, like the emotions, everything was just and I had an older daughter who was neat and tidy, right? And then the second daughter came along, and I couldn't believe how different they were and I thought that's strange. So I started like googling like anything else just seeking out why is like, literally Why is my kid so messy? And somehow I stumbled across this language called executive function. It was like new at the time. I don't know it was like it felt like new language that I hadn't even heard as a teacher as a veteran teacher. And so I started to look more about it, and then all of a sudden, I hit the on Beyond BookSmart. And I said, Well, you know, at that point I'm not working, but I applied for the job because I thought if I could learn what they're doing, and I could try it, maybe I could help this really messy kid I have. And that's how I started Beyond BookSmart. And it turned out that I ended up out of four kids, two are very messy. And what I realized the most through asking you like, your question is, what do I learn, I learned the language to communicate with them, you know, that I wouldn't, didn't, that I wouldn't have had without, you know, being an executive function coach, like, how to help them reflect on their experiences to help them grow, you know, and learn how to listen more to them, rather than trying to force them into a mold that they, they're, you know, like squeezing them, but you know, you can't put them I've learned how to accept that they're not going to be neat and tidy. And that, either I get them to, you know, through that messiness articulate their authentic selves, or, you know, I'm forever nagging and yelling at them. And I think executive function coaching, which you think, Oh, you must be so perfect and organized to do this job. But, you know, that's how I learned I had ADHD, that's how I learned my children had ADHD, you know, I learned what it was, through my interaction with it, it's a learning, you know, it's a, it's a different style of learning, and being and observing and knowing. And we just have to find how you can be that person in another environment that wants you to be a certain way. And then through reflection, through questioning, and I would say, you know, as a coach, and as a parent, that's what I've learned how to coach my kids.Hannah Choi 07:02Is I one thing that we hear a lot from parents, and I'm sure you have to is parents feeling like, like, I didn't know, like, I didn't know what was going on, or like, I knew something was off, but I didn't know what it was. And then, you know, like, I wish I had done something differently, or I wish I had found, you know, about executive function, just executive functions earlier. Did you go through any of that?Fran Havard 07:30Oh, absolutely. It was like, there's this expression, if you can name it, you can tame it. Yeah. And I found when I could name those EF executive function areas, like, you know, metacognition, or planning, prioritizing time management, task initiation, if I could name it, see the strategies that I could bring in. But before I could break it down and see those parts, I just saw a big mess. Once I can name the parts, I was able to analyze how those pieces were coming together to create what I was seeing in front of me. And that's knowledge feature, every parent, every kid needs to know. Because if you can say, task initiation is my struggle right? Now, I know I don't want to do this, but I'm going to give myself a five minute goal to get over this hurdle, you will find that they are the awareness to know what their drag is use that tool to get through it. And then it's not failure. That's why I love executive function coaching because these messy kids meet failure again, and again, because they don't know how to name the pieces. So it just seems like a giant mess. And if anything that I've learned from working this job, it's like it's and I always say this with clients. It's a constant unraveling, like this braid on the back of your head, and you're pulling apart the strands, and you're rebraiding it. So that it's, you know, how they want it braided but it has shape, it has definition and the parts are recognizable.Hannah Choi 09:15I love that. So when you're working with families, and you're working with the you know, so say the child is in coaching, and the child has you know, been identified as someone who is not like fitting in to the mold I mean, really they are they just haven't found the strategies that work for them to fit into society as it is. Now I'm sure there's like a world somewhere where messy people would just be like embraced and welcomed Fran Havard 09:44In their their messy world right? Yeah. children's book writer that has that messy character it's like this blob of color and you know, the sunshine guy he's got Mr. Messy is my favorite character of all because it's like You're just like, what is it? It's like, I wish I had a piece of paper, but it's like this big scribble guy walking around with.10:08I think I remember that10:08He reminds me of my daughter, you know, use that metaphor we use that. I use that with her so that she laughs about it, because, and you gotta you gotta have laughter right?Hannah Choi 10:20Yes. Speaking, I don't know if you can hear it, but there's some kind of loud noise going on Fran Havard 10:25Is someone serenading me? What's happening out there?Hannah Choi 10:28I don't know. There's like a loud drill or a saw, like people don't realize I'm recording right now? (laughter)Fran Havard 10:34I thought that was a song I was like, kids playing instrument out the window. (laughter)Hannah Choi 10:39No, it's the neighbors. Okay. A big part of parenting, at least I know, for me, and many of my friends is this guilt that we that we feel. Regardless, like, regardless of what the topic is, what area of life it is we're bound to like find some, you know, something that we fault ourselves for. Do you? Does that come up in your conversations with parents?Fran Havard 11:02Yeah, I mean, I think it's really important that, you know, me having had the experience of not knowing what was happening and having an experience where I was yelling at my kid, you know, to get them to put their shoes on, or find their backpack or wonder why one morning, she grabs a backpack, puts it on her back and gets ready for school. And it's not even her backpack or you know, I've had those experiences, where you can't understand why they just don't get it. So for me to have made changes to my own behavior, such as: This is your hook. This is your backpack. For me to have made changes to how I parent and my expectations for her and how I can better support her and the youngest son made a world of difference on conflict in the house. So whenever I work with parents, I some part of the conversation that I'm listening to what they're saying, I'm hearing that your son is not filling out a Google Calendar. But what I'm saying to you is, what can we do to sort of support that process? How can we help? Because telling my daughter to pick up her backpack and put it on her back? Doesn't mean she's gonna know which backpack. And so just because your son has a Google Calendar, how can we increase the our interest in it, get engagement, you know, engage with that tool, as a family. And I feel like a lot of my experiences as CC is translating.Hannah Choi 12:44I know for myself, like my son is very forgetful. He's he's very much like me. And so. So every morning, it would it was this constant thing of me saying like, did you get this? Did you get that? Did you get this? Did you get that? And I'm like, What are you doing? Hannah, you need to you need to approach this like a coach. So we made a list. And we have a list on the door that goes out to the, we leave from our garage, so there's a door that goes out there. And so there's a list on there. And he's gotten so good every morning, he stands there in front of it. And he's 10. And he stands there in front of it and reads everything off and then scampers off to get the one thing that he forgot. And it and it's totally taken the stress out of the mornings. For us. It's, it's absolutely, it's taken the pressure off of me, it's removed that from my role, which is great for him and for our relationship.Fran Havard 13:33Exactly, because it gives them I know exactly what you're saying. Because there's this tool that I used with one of my children, I just started using an app where it's one of my clients actually showed me this, they said they use this little character, and you set goals for yourself. And you design your character and you set goals like brush your teeth in the morning, make sure your math homework is packed, wear underwear. Your parents of kids with executive function issues, like the first thing you're like is you put the underwear on, you know, because that step they miss. So like we have tags like that on this app. And then they he comes in the morning, and he'll slide that he did these things. And then the character will get moving. And the character goes on an adventure. And you don't know that's adventure. It's just it's little penguin walking. And and when you do more, it shortens the journey. So they, he will come home from school and he'll pick up his iPad to look at his penguin and what the penguin found on the journey because it's usually a four hour journey or five, he'll make find coconut milk, he's like, "Ma, I found coconut milk". And I'll be like "that's amazing!", but it all stems from him having done those acts and that's tied to the metaphor of task initiation. Right, right.Hannah Choi 14:51 Yeah. I love that. That's great. We will include more about that app in the show notes if anybody wants to get in We have that. So if any, any of our listeners hear this noise in the background, the house next to me is apparently undergoing some kind of alteration, there's some wild saw or drill or something going on. My apologiesFran Havard 15:13 I'm a bit nervous about the timber part, when whatever they're sawing falls down. Hannah Choi 15:20Okay, they obviously do not see the big red Record sign that I have, that I should have. Something that I write about a lot. And I, I struggle with myself a lot is this expectation that just because we are executive function coaches, we kind of put this pressure on ourselves, like, oh, maybe we are also supposed to be excellent in all of our executive functions. And I think executive function coaches are such great examples of how no one on this earth has perfect executive functions. And so where, what if What areas do you have to work on and what challenges do you find? Fran Havard 15:56You know it's funny because when I think about executive functioning coach, we're just having strong executive function, it doesn't always have to look neat and tidy. Like, I have a friend who is, I mean, counters are sparkling, everything is white, got three kids, right? Everything's still white, even with the three kids running around the house, everything has a container, I'll never be that person. So what executive function skills look like, for me, are not what they look like for other people. And for me, it's become like, it's about knowing how to prioritize what's important. That's strong executive, you know, how many projects we deal with every day, when we sit down? If you have four kids, three of those kids are classified special ed. I mean, that alone is a bucket, that alone is a task list. Yeah, that's how I think in those terms, you know, I think I have to do X, Y, and Z, my house doesn't look perfect. My purse, I, I haven't carried one in a very long time. Because I, I lose it, you know, like, but what I've gotten really good at is thinking in categories, and then sub categorizing. And I can, you know, I've gotten good at a planner or, you know, things like, things like that, when it comes to executive function, but and that's what I say, like, we have this image of what's perfect, what has very strong executive function skills. And if there is like, anything that I've learned as a coach, and as a parent, there's no perfect, there's no perfect if you can figure out like, you know, this is all about the change process, if you can figure out what you want to change, and own that and want that and that's the hardest part. And that is the hardest part of executive functioning as a, you know, strength. It's most people that are good at it, either a going through the motions, or B, they know what they want. And that that's nuts. That's the difference. So you know, if my friend has a perfect pristine house, she prioritizes that executive function area, all right, I don't. I mean, I literally went to bed last night with dishes in the sink. My friend would have a mini heart attack if that happened. Like she she says and understand she I called her once and I was like, What color should I paint for these cabinets? And she's like, I can't watch that video. I was like, Why can't you watch the video? She goes, You left all your cabinet doors open, who leaves the cabinet doors open? You know, like for her executive function coaching is everything neat and tidy.Hannah Choi 18:38My god, I seriously think there's someone. Also, there's like someone here.Fran Havard 18:45In your house? I didn't notice, I feel like you're doing great. But I'm like trying I'm like, I could tell there's a lot happening!Hannah Choi 18:55There's like someone in my house. My husband is working from home as well. Okay. Hey, you know what we said we were gonna go into this being really authentic. Well, listeners, I am treating you to authenticity today. Welcome to my life.Fran Havard 19:15Well, Hannah, you know executive function coaching is a lot about how you respond to things, right?Hannah Choi 19:20It is. It really is. Yes, I'm just gonna get through it. And I'm gonna just love it. And I'm just so happy that I'm talking to you. You can go through this with me. So something so two things that I wanted to talk about. One is you said something earlier about comparison and I feel like that comes up a lot. We have these assumptions in our head about how we are or our children are like supposed to be and how other like other kids It's other are like our friends, kids are a certain way. And oh, like my kids are supposed to be that way. And I think that I'm, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the parents of our kiddos that are going through executive function coaching are feeling this way. And it's just so important to recognize that everyone has strengths. Everyone has challenges, your kid is not the same as as someone else's kid, you are not the same. There's going to be things about your kid that are you know, that they're better at something than someone else's kid. And I don't know, that's just something that comes up a lot. I've noticed in conversations with friends and just conversations with other coaches and parents. That comparison is it's tempting to go down that road. And it's can be a little dicey. If you do.Fran Havard 20:56Well, I find that I have to fight that as both a coaching coordinator and as a parent, this idea of what's right. Fix my kid, you know, this is not what coaching is about, I always find I have a definite focus on what's your authentic self. Because these kids have learning differences. And it's not so much that they have learning differences, how they engage and see the world is different. That's why the result, what you see on the other side is different. Because the kids that we work with the ADHD kids, and other learning difference, kids don't see the same world. And I have to temper the expectation right away that that's a beautiful thing. They will never see the same world that x sees it or Y sees it. They interact in a very unique way. And that is something to celebrate. And so, I had a line with parents, that is where I go, allowing parents to understand that it is okay, that your child engages in different way with the world. Congratulations, you've birthed an individual with a unique perspective on the world. Yes, Well done for cultivating that through their early childhood. Well done for keeping that special bit of them right through, you know, school, and yeah, they might not have straight A's in high school, but we'll help them find a way to be successful.Hannah Choi 22:40Oooh, you're giving me the chills.Fran Havard 22:41I mean, like, yes, it's so true. Hannah Choi 22:48I, one of my adult clients and I were having a similar conversation, he was recently diagnosed with ADHD, and he did a project for grad school where they interviewed educators and just people from all different aspects of education, and about how so, so many people don't fit into this, you know, the mold of, of education, as it is today of most schools. And, and then we were saying that, but it's the people who don't fit in, that are the ones that you know, can really end up making change. And it's the people that are different, that see the world in a different way. And that, you know, that that interpret the world in a different ways. They're the ones that keep things interesting and keep us on our toes. And we need more people that think that way. And then in order for them to reach their goals, yeah, they need to develop some executive functions, strategies that support the areas that, that make it maybe make it hard for them to do X, Y, and Z.Fran Havard 23:53Yeah, I, the other day, a little I was in my son's third grade classroom. And we were doing a word search. And like, I've always been a sort of outside the box thinker. And it, I took the word search, and I started doing it with his class. And then I turned the paper to the side, because for me, I could look at letters, you know, turn around, I can all of a sudden see a pattern that I didn't see before. And I and I, all of a sudden, everybody's sitting at my son's table, turn their paper to the side because they had never thought and I thought and I always think when I work with kids who are, you know, have learning differences. They always have their paper to the side helped me see things a little bit differently, you know?Hannah Choi 24:32Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was talking with someone she was, I can't remember who it was, but she was saying, you know, like, if you walk into a special education classroom in an elementary school, you might see someone like lying on the floor and doing their work or someone you know, using some kind of manipulative or you know, sitting in some kind of unique chair or something. And that's what we need in every classroom. Like it should be just sort of accepted and standard. Some people work on the floor. Some people hold their paper sideways. Yeah. And that's, that's one thing that I love about coaching is helping people find what works for them. And I always say, like, I'm gonna make this suggestion, but I don't want you to think, oh, I have to do it this way. Like, I want you to say like, I want you to tell me when it doesn't work, I want you to tell me what you didn't like about it. I always start my question. Okay, you tried this? What did you not like about it? That's it's super valuable, really valuable information. I'm sure that you've had conversations with parents, when they say it feels like it's taking a long time. Because a common thing that we talked about with clients all the time, I'm sure you've talked about it with your clients. And I know it comes up a lot is like how long it takes to make change. I mean, there's 1000s of books on, you know, developing new habits, there's, you know, podcasts and executive function coaches and everything. And it just takes a long time. What do you how do you, how do you help parents understand that and how do you yourself manage it, when, when either one of your clients is taking a long time, or if you're taking a long time, or one of your kids.Fran Havard 26:11I'm a firm believer that you have to get underneath, you got to get up underneath the resistance to change. So you remember, we we learned a lot about friction when we that when we read the article I sent and you have to understand as a parent, as a coach, what's creating that friction, that resistance to change. And I think a lot about problem solving in those terms. Now, because change is slow because of this friction. And then when you look at like a kid who's, you know, 17 in pre contemplation, which is there, they don't even realize they have to change, they're so over it, they're so detached, and how to bring them to that line, that takes a long time, relationship building, and a lot of making that child feel like they can be successful. And then the more that you can reshape that perception they have of themselves, so that they can see I'm a person capable of doing good things, I am a person capable of having a conversation, then you get the wheel starts to spin. So you have less of that, you know, that friction, and you have more of that's what we're going for the snowball, where one good idea feeds another good idea. It takes it takes a lot of verbal unpacking, we have to change the narrative inside the head. And when we do that, then changes quicker. But and that friction causes that slowness then causes the rate of change to slow down. Like we use physics as we use Newton's law of motion in this company, in Beyond BookSmart to talk about, you know, force and change in the process. It's not always the carrot, I'll give you this and you'll do it. Right. That's artificial. We've learned as coaches that that doesn't work. What Works is how we change this.Hannah Choi 28:19Yep. And so much of that is confidence, right? The how you were saying like, like, if you are at the point where you've like, say, you've been labeled something, you know, you've been labeled, you know, disorganized or you just have, the messages that have been given to you growing up is that you are incapable of doing this thing in a way that people like, and so your confidence has been eroded. And so I imagine that a lot of the friction that we that we do experience is for is not necessarily being able to believe that we could change, right?Fran Havard 29:03That's exactly it. This is me Take it or leave it. That's pre-contemplation. This is who I am. I'm not capable of change. Right? Yeah, that mindset, that's what you're working with. That's what you're changing. You're you are, you know, Emily Dickinson said "Hope is the Thing With Feathers that perches in the soul", like you are giving them that hope that purchases in the soul and then grows so that they can feel that they are more than this label.Hannah Choi 29:32Yeah, yep. It's a it can be hard. It can be hard waiting for someone to, you know, or walking away. ItFran Havard 29:40can be hard because there's a lot of conflicting messages and you makes you think I need to fix everything. And that's why that's why the executive function pieces so great, because it's about the parts, right? Yeah. What are we going to fix this week? We're going to fix we're going to try to and see if we're ready to fix task initiation. We're gonna try by, by getting over this hurdle of going to the gym, or dealing with my physics teacher, or writing this English assignment, Hannah, you know, writing for me is, you know, where my energy mostly lies when it comes through executive function coaching and getting a kid over that hurdle of you write the first sentence, then that's huge. We can get the first sentence written when you know, if we can isolate those parts, then we're not taking on everything. And then those quick wins those small successes that you're feeling, I wrote a sentence. Great. You weren't or you had nothing before that. AndHannah Choi 30:43I opened the doc. Sometimes it's just opening the doc. Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I think that as an outsider, as an observer of someone who struggles like you said, you can you find yourself saying, like, why can't they just that without breaking it down like that so small into such small, tiny little goals can be challenging for the observer. Because it's, you know, we just don't understand. But for the person who is learning better strategies to support themselves, that's the key. And that's kind of why it takes so long right?Fran Havard 31:26To unravel the mess so they can see what they want to work on. Yeah. So they can realize it's not really a mess. It's just a beautiful bunch of parts looking different.Hannah Choi 31:36Yes, that's right. Yeah, it's all there.Fran Havard 31:40It's all there. You would necessarily want to see it or not how they feel that they should show it, you know?Hannah Choi 31:50Yeah. Do you have any questions for me?Fran Havard 31:52Why don't you tell us a little bit about how starting this podcast challenged your EF skills?Hannah Choi 31:58Oh, yeah. Well, that's a great question. As you know, I really love to write, if writer, if listeners don't know, I write quite a bit for Beyond BookSmart. Internally, mostly internally. And so I was super excited about doing this, because I knew that I was going to be able to write a lot. But that also meant I had to be extremely organized. We have a lot of working parts, we have the audio, the writing, the planning, there are so many executive functions that are tied up with planning a podcast. So I would say for me, mostly, it has been task initiation, getting myself to make sure that I do the things that I need to do, because there's a lot of things on the list. Writing everything down. Absolutely. So I don't forget. And organization, keeping it all organized. So yeah.Fran Havard 32:54But thinking what are you going to do next?Hannah Choi 32:56Yeah, right, right. And cognitive flexibility,Fran Havard 32:59right. Next steps is the most important executive function skill you could have.Hannah Choi 33:03It is yeah. So next steps is - we end every meeting with the next steps, you know, what are we all going to do next? I end every writing session. If I sit down to write I end, every single writing session with what's next. I think, Oh, I think if I were to give one tip to anyone in the world, would be to use Next Steps. What is your next step when you stop doing the thing? What is your next step saves a whole bunch of heartache when you can't remember what you're gonna do,Fran Havard 33:33What you're gonna do, like you get up a podcast, most people get up and Chuck their stuff, they go upstairs and drink a cup of coffee. If you sit there for 30 seconds, and take a quick note, you save all those ideas flooding your brain, it's like it's a time window, you got to grab it.Hannah Choi 33:48Yeah, it's so true. And a huge thing that I talk a lot about with my clients is frontloading and doing as much as you can upfront to save yourself a whole bunch of grief later on. And, and that is for me, too, is that like you were saying earlier to the whole reflection piece, like quick, like if you do our little reflection session after anything that you've just done, then you are frontloading a whole bunch of work for next time.Fran Havard 34:15Exactly. And it's like, it's like a flood after you're in one of these and you just got to gotta get it down. Got to capture. Yep. Well, thank you, Hannah. Hannah Choi 34:25Oh, thank you, Fran. I really hope that our listeners can hear it. And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in today's episode and maybe even had a little chuckle listening to our attempts to maintain focus while the house next door was attacked with a power tool. Here at Focus Forward, we aim to bring you authentic stories and give you opportunities to learn and also be entertained. So hopefully today's episode did just that. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. On our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast we send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned thanks for listening

The Insurance Dudes are on a mission to find the best insurance agentsaround the country to find out how they are creating some of the top agencies. But they do not stop there, they also bring professionals from other industries for insights that can help agents take their agencies to the next level. The Insurance Dudes focus on your agency's four pillars: Hiring, Training, Marketing and Motivation! We have to keep the sword sharp if we want our agencies to thrive. Insurance Dudes are leaders in their home, at their office and in their community. This podcast will keep you on track with like minded high performing agents while keeping entertained!About Jason and Craig:Both agents themselves, they both have scaled to around $10 million in premium.  After searching for years for a system to create predictability in their agencies, they developed the Telefunnel after their interviews with so many agents and business leaders.  Taking several years, tons of trial and error, and hundreds of thousands of dollars on lead spend, they've optimized their agencies and teams to write tons of premium, consistently, and nearly on autopilot!LEARN MORE BY Registering for TUESDAY's LIVE CALL With The Insurance Dudes![Episode Transcript]Jason Feltman  00:00You want to ask a lot of yes questions that you get yes answers to so that it moves the process along. So that would be my biggest piece of advice would be to just remove the objection and see what they would say if the objection was removed, then would you basically want to start?Craig Pretzinger  00:19Insurance dudes are on a mission to escape big hiccup by our agents.Jason Feltman  00:25How? by uncovering the secrets to creating a predictable, consistent, and profitable agency Sales Machine.Craig Pretzinger  00:33Hi, I'm Craig Pretzinger.Jason Feltman  00:34I am Jason Feldman.Craig Pretzinger  00:36We are agents.Jason Feltman  00:37We are insurance. Right now while it's fresh in your mind, check out live dot tele dudes.com. We tookCraig Pretzinger  00:47our notes from over 100 interviews with top agents from around the country and made it into a live webcast.Jason Feltman  00:54Using these strategies led Craig and I to selling more than 10 million in premium in the last two years.Craig Pretzinger  01:01On this call, you'll receive the exact blueprint to get the same resultsJason Feltman  01:06just go to Live dot Tella dudes.com. To register for this upcoming Tuesday's live call with us.Craig Pretzinger  01:14If you jump on this call with us we're certain 2022 will be an absolutely fantastic year for youJason Feltman  01:20see you there. Welcome to an insurance playbook. I'm Jason Feldman. And we're gonna go over right now how to overcome objections. This is the worst part, right? This is the part that every agent who's on the phone, or in person in front of somebody fears the most they go through an entire presentation, they give the price, whatever that final thing that they say. They wait to hear the answer, and they almost never get up. Okay, let's go forward. Right. So so there's gonna be some sort of objection. We all know it, we all fear it. Okay, so there's a couple things going into how to overcome objections. I'm gonna give a few tips here. First one is the mindset. First off, is the mind set. Why do we talk about the mindset because the bottom line is you're goi

Here is that list I mentioned listing out a few things that are true of us in Christ:Nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.Romans 8:38-39In Christ I am a new creation.2 Corinthians 5:17In Christ I am the righteousness of God.2 Corinthians 5:21There is no condemnation for me in Christ Jesus.Romans 8:1 Romans 8:33-34I have been adopted into the family of God. God is my Father.John 1:12-13Romans 8:14-17The Lord will never ever leave me nor forsake me.Hebrews 13:5I have the Holy Spirit.Romans 8:9I no longer am who I was. I am dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Sin no longer has dominion over me.Romans 6:6Romans 6:11Romans 6:14Galatians 2:20God will not ever let me be tempted beyond my ability. No matter what situation I find myself in, it is never too much because God is faithful.1 Corinthians 10:13I have everything I need to live the life God has called me to live.2 Peter 1:3-4Quote I used:"Without being too technical, the verb lay aside can be translated one of two ways, (1) either indicating a completed past action (this would be our position in Christ) or (2) an action the believer is to carry out (almost giving it the sense of an imperative)." (https://www.preceptaustin.org/ephesians_420-22)Other podcast episodes that I referenced that are helpful companions to this one (in order of appearance):Episode 21: "I never knew you"Episode 34: JustificationEpisode 14: Our funeral leads to our freedomScriptures used:John 11:35John 11:38-44John 11:11-15John 11:252 Corinthians 5:17Romans 6:6Ephesians 4:17-24Ephesians 2:1-3John 1:12-13Romans 8:14-172 Corinthians 5:21Romans 8:9Galatians 5:22-23Colossians 3:8-10Romans 6:14Romans 8:38-39Hebrews 13:5Romans 12:1-21 Corinthians 2:11-12Romans 6:1-11**CORRECTIONS/CLARIFICATIONS**I said "be transformed by the renewing of your mind". The direct quote is "be transformed by the renewal of your mind" in the translation I was reading out of. This doesn't make any difference at all whatsoever. I simply wanted to be precise.When I said that Jesus' first coming brought a spiritual death and rebirth I was referring to what happens to us when we were born again. I fully believe the biblical message that Jesus physically died and that He physically rose from the dead. That is a crucial and indispensable component to the gospel.I think I made this clear at a couple of points in the episode, but these identity qualities that I am describing are true of those who are in Christ, meaning those who have place their faith and trust in Him. For those who have yet to do so, these qualities do not yet apply; however, they can! Anyone can give their lives to the Lord in an instance and receive immediate forgiveness for sins and become a new creation!As always, feel free to email any comments or questions to ijustwanttotalkabout@gmail.com!

Transcription:00:03Welcome to changing the rules, a weekly podcast about people who are living their best lives, and advice on how you can achieve that too.  Join us with your lively host Ray Lowe, better known as the luckiest guy in the world.Ray Loewe00:17Well, this is the lively host, Ray Lowe, and welcome to our brand new studio in Willow Street, Pennsylvania, wherever that might be. And we've got a great guest today. But before we get into our guest, I want to remind everybody that changing the rules is about the fact that all through our lives we're given rules, we're given them by our parents, and then we went to school in the school gave us rules in the church gave us rules, and our jobs gave us rules. And I think it was Steve Jobs, the Apple guy who came back and said, You know, when you're living your life under somebody else's rules, you're not living your life, you're living somebody else's life. And we're lucky enough that every week we interview one of the luckiest people in the world. Now we have a definition for that. The luckiest people in the world are those people who take control of their own lives and live them under their own terms. And we certainly have one of the luckiest people in the world with us today. And I want to start out with a statement and you're gonna see why it's so important as we go through. You know, just because you reach a certain age in life doesn't mean that you have to retire and that you're washed up. And in fact, many people when they reach a certain age are useful. And sometimes they're outstanding, and sometimes they're even become the best there is regardless of their age. So I want to do is introduce today, Candice O'Donnell. You prefer Candice or Candy?Candace O'Donnell  01:45Candice? Candice. I think Candy sounds like a retired stripper at my age.Ray Loewe01:53Oh, well,Candace O'Donnell  01:55I go with Candace,Ray Loewe01:56you know, you'd probably do that well, too. But we'll get into that one. Okay, so So Candice has a really interesting career. And her background is she's raised four children. Okay, not a small feat. While she was doing that she taught English at Elizabethtown University, she has always been active in the theater. And then she got to a point where she had a chance to create some projects that were of interest to her. Okay, and a let's and that started later in life. So So let's, let's tell everybody how young you are.Candace O'Donnell 02:31I'll be at in about a month 27th two months 27 of JuneRay Loewe02:37And you know, many people, when they reach these certain ages, say it's time to shut down? Well, not Candice. Okay, so tell us a little bit about these projects that you created. And tell us about them in general. And then let's get specific about the three specific ones that you chose to put into life.Candace O'Donnell 02:56Well, as you said, I've been doing theater here in Lancaster for maybe 25 years. I've done the Fulton I've done EPAC, my favorite role until I started doing this. This one-woman show was Driving Miss Daisy. That's a wonderful play with a fabulous message. But I guess it was about six, seven years ago. I started doing these one-woman shows I had done small skits for the anniversary of the Fulton 200 and 50th anniversary of people who had appeared at the phone, one of them being Sarah Bernhardt. And so I started I had done a little bit on Carrie Nation, the Temperance leader I had done Abigail Adams, but I started going in earnest into these one-woman shows. I had always wanted to do Mary Lincoln. And I hesitated on Mary Lincoln because it was such a tragic life. She was mentally ill, and she lost every single person that she loved. Every single person that she loved was taken away from her. And I couldn't figure out a way to get into humor in it. And so I kept hesitating, because I thought can I put in audiences through 70 minutes, 75 minutes of hell, her life was hell. And then I remembered one of her funny lines. When she first met Lincoln. She was the belle of the ball and he was a country bumpkin. And he came up to her and he said, Ms. Todd, I want to dance with you in the worst kind of way. And then she said, and then he proceeded to do exactly that. So that's where I got a little humor and I developed that. And then I decided to undertake Sarah Bernhardt an entirely different person. I go for a through-line with each of my characters. The through-line for Mary Lincoln was much madness is divinest sense, which is Emily Dickinson. And was it the track it was a fact that she was mentally ill. Sarah Bernhardt entirely different story, my throughline for her was Edsp ofs. Riojan was not ago not at all. And Sarah Bernhardt lived life on her own terms. She was a survivor. She invented the casting couch. She invented the PR agent. And she invented the cougar. She was amoral, rather than immoral. She was a tremendous survivor. She continued to perform 10 years after her leg was amputated. And incidentally, she did perform at the Fulton Theatre in Lancaster. And finally, I worked my way to Queen Victoria. I had had a strong interest in her for years. And the subtitle there is he was my all in all, Victoria is about her obsession, obsession with her husband, Albert. And particularly funny because they had nine children, she hated babies. You do the math, you put it together? Why did they have nine children? She hated them. So that's how I got into these. And I've really enjoyed them.Ray Loewe06:03Okay, well, I'm sorry, you don't have any passion for any of these at all. But you know, I think what does it take to do this? So let's go back to the first one to Mary Todd Lincoln. First of all, you had to make the decision that this was a character that you were going to bring to life. Okay. And so what did you have to do? I mean, because you wrote the script, right?Candace O'Donnell  06:29You I, it takes me about two to three years to research each person. And, but it's, it's amazing. Ray, the, the through-line comes to you almost instantly, at least it did to me when you see what the glue of this character is what you're going to emphasize. Now, another writer might not emphasize it. But then your research all falls into place. AndRay Loewe06:56okay, so you write the script, you're starting two years ahead of before you're going to deliver this Right, correct. And you got to go where do you find the background data on these people?Candace O'Donnell  07:07There, you're gonna really be surprised at this. It shows you what a low-tech dinosaur I am. I get it out of books. You've heard of books, B. O. O. K. S. I do not get online. Most people today would do their research online.Ray Loewe07:23Yeah. You know, we have our engineer here, who is college age, you know, and I think he's a digital book guy. Oh, is he? okay. Well, maybe not. Maybe he knows what a book is. Okay, You read books in college? Yeah, he did. Okay, so you dig in, and you've got two years of finding a character? Have you ever started on any and then found out halfway through that you couldn't get enough material and you killed the character?Candace O'Donnell 07:48No, I'm a little bit too cautious a person for that? I wouldn't. I'm usually interested in the character and know something about the character. And also I use films and plays as my sources too. I know enough about the character that I have yet to launch into one and thought, oh, no, this is actually a boring character. In fact, the more I researched them, the more fascinating they become.Ray Loewe08:13Okay, so So you start digging into this and you got this two-year process and you're writing your own script? Yeah. Okay. Which probably helps you memorize the script. Okay, and now you're going to deliver this. Okay, so how do you deliver this do you need to get sponsors for this as something that you go to somebody and do a trial.Candace O'Donnell  08:38I'm really glad you asked me that question, because it gives me a chance to pay tribute to Betsy Hurley of the Lancaster Literary Guild, and I haven't been asked that question before. She's the person who got me into the Ware Center with Mary Lincoln. Okay, and once those were very successful, and then I didn't have trouble getting into the Ware center after that. Most of them the more sellouts. My difficulty was COVID. You know, I had a delay of several well, all told this production was delayed four years because of COVID.Ray Loewe09:16Okay, so this is why Candice is one of the luckiest people in the world. I want you to think about this as our listeners here. Okay, so she took on a project several years ago, she knew it was going to take several years to do this. She ran into the COVID barrier most other people use as an excuse to quit, but not here. We were going to deliver this and we're gonna get into a couple of other things later as we go. So all of a sudden, Mary Todd Lincoln appeared on the stage, and you have a script. And do you have any plans to do anything with that script? Now that you've given the character life?Candace O'Donnell  09:55You mean Mary Todd Lincoln? Yeah. I've been asked to do a program here at Willow Valley and what I sometimes do with my programs, I'll do 20 minutes of Mary Lincoln. I'll do 20 minutes of Sarah Bernhardt. I'll do 20 minutes of Queen Victoria. I'm developing that now.Ray Loewe10:14Okay, so you've finished, Mary Todd. She's now alive. Okay. Yes. And now you sat there and you said, Okay, what's next? You didn't stop. Right? So how did you get the drive to go on to the next one? Candace O'Donnell 10:34I, because I'm an incorrigible ham. That's what my husband would tell you. Okay, that's where I get the drive. Okay, I have to admit it.Ray Loewe10:42Well, this is where the passion meets the excellence, though, so go ahead.Candace O'Donnell 10:47Well, that's what motivates me. But also, right, I really get passionate about these women. That's why I don't choose anybody that I don't admire. I see their foibles. We all have our foibles. But I couldn't do it fair, if I were doing man, I couldn't do Trump because I wouldn't, I couldn't admire him enough to do him, okay, I admire all these women. And the more I know about them, the more I see the hell they went through in various ways, and they triumphed over it. So it's not at all hard to motivate myself to do this. It was hard to keep the faith during COVID. With all the delays, like um, and of course, as you and I discussed, I'm getting older. So I'm wondering if I'm gonna go into dementia. Oh, and by the way, I'm losing my balance. I take the balance classes here at Willow Valley. So I won't fall down on stage. Okay. So you're wondering, you are wondering, is the body is the mind going to fail me. And you just sort of leap out in faith,Ray Loewe12:00but you didn't give up? And it worked.  So let's talk about being queen. Okay. So I met you when you were going into this role of Queen of the empire Victoria. Okay. And, to tell you the truth, when I met you, I went to your performance with some trepidation. I mean, I'm sitting there saying, you know, can I sit through an hour plus of this? And I'll tell you, I was wrapped for 75 minutes, I don't think I moved in my seat, and to your little heart and to get me to do that. This is not me. I you know, so you know, you're an athlete. So you did something special here. And, it was a wonderful performance, and you brought this character to life. And I could just see in your eyes and your, the way you moved on stage that you are not you that don't you are Queen, Victoria. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about putting this one together. Because you had to start two years ago, you'd already done a couple of these. So you knew you could do it. Yeah. But now you started asking these questions in one of the things that you told me was about two weeks before you were gonna give this guess what, what happened?Candace O'Donnell 13:12Really, really nasty cough? And, of course, immediately tested for COVID. No, it wasn't COVID chest X-ray, is it pneumonia. And that was frightening I, people, I don't get frightened by performing because as I already confessed, I'm a ham I love to perform. But this cough frightened me. Because I was really terrified that I would not be able to deliver the performance. I was thinking of some other actresses I've worked with, but that was too late for them to memorize a 70-minute script. And I remember my daughter, saying, Mom, well, you may just have to give up on this. And she said I said, Well, I'm, you know me. I'm not giving up at this point. Don't you know my personality? And she said, Well, would you rather die mom? And I said yes. Yes. I would rather die than have to call Keegan my granddaughter was in the show introducing it. She's a temple, a student at Temple called Keegan and say, Keegan, we're not doing it. I would. So that was our big family joke. Mom would rather die than not do it so. As you know, you were there. Well, I was coughing right before I went out, I had to sucrets, I had tea. But now this, you said I'm the luckiest person in the world. And you are and I am and we are but that this was also a blessing. Because I absolutely believe this was God. I mean, I go out there and I'm not coughing. It's unbelievable to me, nor did I fall down on stage. Ray Loewe14:39And the show must go on. The show must go on. So I think this is a message that I want our listeners to get across. Most of us during our lives, put off projects that we want to do because life gets in the way. You know, here you were. You're raising four kids. You're teaching English. You know you're doing all of these things and then somewhere along the line, I think this germ woke up in your head and said, this has been there for a long time I have to do this.Candace O'Donnell  15:09Yeah. It's, it's, I think, if you have a particular passion, you almost have it from the womb.Ray Loewe15:17And it's never too late to do that. And even at your stage of the game, when you are worried about health issues and things like that, guess what? You know everything falls in place, it was no problem. You got it done.Candice O'Donnell  15:32I was flabbergasted by it myself. Oh, I want to say one other thing, because there were so many Willow Valley people in the audience, I had two very sharp audiences, you being one of the members of the audience, who were completely with me, and you can tell that when you step out on stage, you can feel the button. You know, Bruce Springsteen, performing as an exchange of energy between the audience and the performer. You can tell when they're with you, they were laughing ahead of my jokes. That before I got to my punch line, they were laughing. I thought, Oh, boy.Ray Loewe16:10Well, you know, what was the gift? Well, when we had to stand up and sing God, save the queen, and do the royal wave to greet you in there. I mean, you had us at the beginning. But I think this is a really good lesson for people because here you are. And I'm going to predict you're going to do another one. I have no idea what it might be.Candace O'Donnell  16:30My husband will kill me but yeah, we can all see I'm incorrigible.Ray Loewe16:33And the other thing that you're doing here is you're creating scripts, that maybe somebody else will do not as well as you do, but they'll do it at some point in time. And, and the research that you've done is just phenomenal projects. And I think you're to be congratulated for doing that. And I think it just makes you younger and younger and younger. So there all right, it keeps you going forward. Okay, so, unfortunately, we're near the end of our time here. So it's flies. Do you have any, any parting comments, any words of wisdom to anybody who wants to do these things? Or anything for the good of mankind?Candace O'Donnell  17:12Well, I just want to say I am hoping to eventually sell the scripts so that they will live on after me. Again, you may think I sound like a religious fanatic here. If you can get the guts to get out there and do it. Something in my case, I believe it was God, but something will see you through. Don't be afraid to try.Ray Loewe17:39And with that, I don't think there's anything more to say. So Luke is our engineer here at Willow Valley. So Luke, sign us off, please.17:52Thank you for listening to changing the rules. Join us next week for more conversation, our special guest and to hear more from the luckiest guy in the world.

Building on the theme of failure from episode one, I sat down with Jodi for this week's episode - the mom of a young adult who had serious Executive Functioning challenges during his transition to college that impacted his grades, mental health, and overall quality of life. He has since made an inspiring transformation working with an EF coach over this past year and is now doing remarkably well. This episode explores what the tumultuous process looked like in all its glorious imperfection from Jodi's perspective.Jodi is very open about her son's challenges with Executive Functions, the pandemic, and the transition to college, and how all of these factors made life exceedingly stressful for them both as Jodi wrestled with wanting to help but not knowing what to do.Listen to this episode to hear Jodi's inspirational story about how she and her son are thriving after what felt like a huge failure. Hopefully, if you or your child are struggling with your own Executive Functions, this episode will give you some inspiration that with hard work, time, and the right support, massive transformations are possible.Some readings and resources related to topics & themes that came up in my interview with Jodi:Resources for Parents with Children Who Have ADHDChild Mind Institute - Complete Guide to ADHDParenting a Child with ADHDAmerican Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry - ADHD Resource CenterTransition from High School to College or WorkCollege Readiness Checklist - from BBS Tools LibraryTransition to College Checklist - from FAME Main12 Steps for Easing the Transition to Work - from understood.orgAsking for Help4 Tips to Effectively Ask for Help—and Get a YesTeaching Students How to Ask for HelpBeyond BookSmart ResourcesOverwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Control (blog)How to Help Overwhelmed College Students (webinar)College Executive Function CoachingContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.In the last episode, I covered the idea of failure and how it isn't actually failure. Many of our listeners are either executive function coaching clients or their parents, we know that both clients and parents of clients can feel like they're failing, both before they reach out for coaching and then even during coaching. But as we know, this isn't actually failing, right? It's just part of the process of finding what works. I wanted to explore this more and look at it from the perspective of someone who knows this feeling well. So I sat down with Jodi, she's a mom of a young adult who is working on improving his executive function skills. He's working with an executive function coach. And Jodi also spent some of her time talking with families who are interested in coaching for their own kiddos. So I'll let her tell you more about herself and share her unique perspective on brains and parenting and just share her inspirational story about coming back from what felt like a huge failure. And just a short note, before we dive into my conversation with Jodi, this is our first interview for this brand new podcast. And as you'll hear in the first few minutes, we're still working out some of the audio kinks. But we're not seeing this as a failure. Nope, it's been an excellent opportunity to learn how we can make it the best it can be. And it's just a little bit of a bumpy ride along the way. All right on to the show. Hi, Jodi, thanks so much for joining me today. Could you introduce yourself and share a little bit about your family's journey to executive function coaching?Jodi 01:58Yeah. So I'm Jodi. I'm a mom of young while a freshman/sophomore son in college. And I have a junior daughter in college and my daughter actually has multiple sclerosis, which is an autoimmune disorder that attacks your brain or spinal cord. So she got diagnosed at 16. So she was just young in high school when she got that. She was really high high executive functioning. I'm I feel like the only thing I can say I'm a genius at is executive functioning. And maybe empathy. It but um, and she was the same, but now she has MS. So she's she's struggled with a lot of those challenges. She's not the person who's with Beyond BookSmart, interestingly enough. In my career I work as a nurse and actually in an insurance company, but I work with our brain spinal cord injuries. So I spent the last 10 or 11 years working with very closely with brain injuries from their original right acute out of the injury and through the rehab and, you know, throughout their life of the injury until they're, you know, outside of our claim and workman's comp. So I have a lot of knowledge about how brains work differently. And what happens when brains don't work the way they used to work. And I have a son who has was diagnosed with ADHD when he was very little and the biggest reason why he was diagnosed with it was because he had a lot of trouble managing his emotions, so he had a lot of emotional dysregulation. I used to always say like, you can't take them off the train tracks, you gotta let them know, we're gonna be switching tracks, give him a little time advance notice. And then obviously, the typical ADHD stuff where, you know, they're, they're distracted, they don't focus, they seem like they're not listening. Um, so, so my son who has the ADHD diagnosis is the one who is in. We're just about I think a year somewhere around our year anniversary here with I think we're just maybe a month shy of that with Beyond BookSmart in through his life when he was little, it was always a challenge. I did bring him to a neuropsychologist who when he was maybe in second grade, and she said, "Wow, he needs some help". You know, it was it was pretty it was pretty significant not you know, very significant and so we did a lot with that we tried to avoid medications we weren't able to avoid medications and you know, he he grew up you got to better better hand handle with his with his emotions and regulating emotions and, but still all of the typical challenges that we see with our ADHD kids and learning and today's learning environment, which is so different than my learning environment I got to play when we were in lower grades, you know, they don't get to play anymore. No. Oh, so um, so he did he, you know, we did alright in our school system were very remote. We're kind of out in the woods in Western Massachusetts and we have a regional school and great teachers and great education. His teachers were really committed to him and understanding his differences and helping us with that. So the school system was really great. But when he hit high school, he was done with meds. He didn't like the way they made him feel. So all of a sudden, we're in a situation where the meds were helping him and he never learned any tools. So we did a lot of tripping through high school as far as like, falling behind getting ahead, falling behind getting ahead. He had a 504 plan, where you know, and I would constantly have team meetings, I would collect the team meetings right, and sit down and say, why can't we all work together? I can't, I can't bring it home if I don't know what it is that I'm trying to you know, do it at home. And so we got through it, but he ended up being a on top of all this he in in, you know, as we see a lot, very smart intellectual kid and... COVID. Senior year. So he wouldn't know what's happening all sudden, everybody's home, he lost prom, he lost senior trip, he lost graduation, he lost senior track, you know, just, and he lost his friends, which he's always had a hard time with friends. And he finally got this really great group that just really melded probably his junior year. And then he lost that group of friends. So we went into video gaming, because that's where everybody was, right? We couldn't see anybody. So we went into video gaming, he had zero structure. Time of day came and went, No, no, nobody had structured school. Nobody knew what to do. There wasn't planned like it is now. They're a little bit better at that remote teaching. So we kind of lost him. So we already had those struggles, and then I kind of lost him. So hoping that college would be better, he dove right into college into robotic engineering college. Remote robotic engineering. Yeah, no. Well, and they didn't really know. Hannah Choi 07:30Yeah, they were figuring it out, too. Jodi 07:33Yeah. Yeah, they really had a good grasp already, you know, on that kind of situation. But obviously switching to everybody being remote. He was very isolated. So he went to his dorm. And he didn't, he had a roommate who was never there. And so he sat in his room alone all day and all night and had classes that he never attended, because they were on his computer. And, you know, so that's sort of when he failed every single class. Or they do quarters there. So weHannah Choi 08:05That's fast. Those quarters are fast. My grad school, I went to UC Santa Barbara in California and its quarters there. It was, it was Yeah, but is it nine weeks or something goes by fast?Jodi 08:16It's um, it's they I think it's seven, seven and a half week much. Yeah. reclass is seven and a half week. Yes. Four days a week. Yeah,Hannah Choi 08:25I know. You basically start and then all of a sudden it's midterms. Yes.Jodi 08:29Yeah. Yeah. And you know, by midterms, he still hasn't done any of his homework because it's only two weeks in right and so it all catch up. Don't worry about it. It's all good and not so much not so much. Yeah. So he is and he wouldn't take help and our relationship started to get I'm really close with my kids. Both of them and our relationship was really getting hurt because I was having to you know, I was having to be the I can't I can't regulate his college and manage him at college and be mom without him just eating me you know so it was it was really really tough and in high school I was looking for executive functioning coaches in the area right and ever thought to that remote one option Hannah Choi 09:17right, that was before COVID Before we thought that way Yeah, we didn't thinkJodi 09:21that way at all everything is better in person better in person and although it is better in person remote gives us some really fantastic opportunity.Hannah Choi 09:28 Look at you and I, we're having this conversation. Jodi 09:30Yeah, I know! We're having conversation. We aren't that far away but we still aren't next door. So so you know earlier there was really no executive functioning coaches out here the school didn't know anybody and you know, he got he went to like executive functioning specialty therapists but it's very different. You know, your coach.Hannah Choi 09:51It's not the same thing. Yeah.Jodi 09:53So so the school actually said Beyond BookSmart is not anything on our list. We can't tell you how it goes. But what I do know is we have kids doing. So that's the only one I've heard of, if you want to give them a call and give it a try. So that's how we got cool. That's a little history on me. 10:11Yeah, I'm so glad for for him and for you and your relationship that they knew about that they knew about executive function coaching? Because it's not it's, I mean, first of all, that people even know what executive functions are. That's, that's really common. When, when people like, if it ever comes up, like, Oh, what do you do for work? And then I tell them, they nine times out of 10, I think that I work with executives. And so they're like, Jodi 10:39Oh, I would have never thought that.Hannah Choi 10:42And so and so then I'm like, well, some coaches work with executives, because some executives need executive function coaching. But the majority of our clients don't are not executives. So yeah, so that's wonderful that they that they, that they knew about it, and were able to connect to Jodi 11:01Well, his his school is really, the school is full of a whole bunch of kids on the spectrum. I mean, in I guess you maybe you probably see that a lot of engineering schools. Yeah. But they, they have a whole department that works with these kids for this reason. And so I thought that were going to be okay, because of them. But then realized, I think maybe we would have been if it wasn't for COVID. But there was it COVID just changed, right, everybody, everybody, you know, they just, it just blew up. Yeah, anything that was difficult was soHannah Choi 11:37that's the story that I personally have heard from so many people. And I know a lot of my colleagues have heard and just other people that I've talked to, I was just talking to a friend of mine recently. And she was just saying, like, she felt like she had everything together. And then when COVID hit, she realized she actually didn't, it's so much of our success is built is supported by the structures that we have, right? And so when those structures are there, and they're solid, and they're working and and we can kind of like relax, and so then then it's like, okay, then I don't have to worry about all that other stuff. So now I can, I can, you know, I can, like the parts, the parts that are challenging for me are not as challenging because I'd have to worry about all those other things. And so then when you do have to worry about them, and you're you've never managed them like that before. So like, you don't know what to do. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the story that I'm hearing. And I think that a lot of us coaches are hearing from pretty much everyone.Jodi 12:37I'm even seeing it. I mean, like I say, and I know what executive functioning is, right? Because I work with brain injuries. So yeah, what happens when everybody falls on their head, they hit their frontal lobe and boom, that's, you know, sort of, that's where it goes. But, um, so yeah, so they, they, they knew of it. I mean, that's, I spoke to them with those terms. And they were like, Yeah, you know, this place we hear, you know, it's in Boston, whatever. And so and so here we are. But now it's just and even some of the parents that I talked to now, because between the his school, I'm on the parent Facebook site on his school, so between his school and then doing a little bit of liason, so I guess, liaison work type thing here, you know, just talking to other parents to let them know what my experience is. It's just there are a lot of questions still about... Well, it's, you know, remote and, you know, we're already doing so much on a computer. Do you feel like the remote can be successful? I feel like somebody needs to sit next to my kid. And I'm like, these, these these kids have been staring at screens for three years.Hannah Choi 13:47It's nothing new for them. No,Jodi 13:50they actually don't know how to sit down next to a person.Hannah Choi 13:52Haha, yeah! "What do you doing so close to me?"Jodi 13:56Yeah, which is actually kind of interesting even saying that because COVID You know, I think we find kids on the spectrum are not necessarily kids with ADHD but my son is definitely has his his levels of socially awkwardness. I mean, there are there he has a hard time reading social cues, but he's himself is very social once it becomes integrated, very chatty and social. But he was really hard to engage in, initially with as parents, we're reaching out on Facebook together saying, "my kids are struggling, my kids suffering, my kids not passing, my kids depressed", you know, and trying to get our kids together, which was like, herding ants. You know, like, I mean, when you know, there's fruit all over the place. There's like it possible, you know, and they're like, oh, yeah, sure. Okay. Well, yeah, my I'll reach out later, later, like later later. And then finally, somehow, I'm pretty aggressive. So you know, I definitely helicoptered that one. And you know, there were a handful of us parents who did and we sort of forced them to get together a little bit, a few of them. And what did they talk about? Are their moms! Great! We worked so hard to get them together. But now, now I'm you know, there's still that conversation is still going on. This is happening with COVID or without COVID. And so I'm always speaking up and saying, Look, you know, send me a private message and I'll let you know what's going on for me. So I've spoken to a lot of parents at the school and actually, some of them directed here, but also just some saying, "Look, I'll have my kid reach out to you". And I'll tell you, in I can say it's, it has a it's a direct effect from the coaching that he's been receiving. As much as we're doing this coaching for a lot of executive functioning skills, he is getting so much more confident in himself and aware of like, who he is, and that he's different in different is okay, okay. So he's reaching out to these kids. He's like, "Oh, yeah, no problem, Mom". And then I'm like, hey, you know, gently, did you ever reach out to the kid? He's like, "Oh, yeah, we reached out, we spoke, we talked, we're on Discord together. And I've met him for dinner." And I'm like,Hannah Choi 16:19When I, when I think about working with my clients, my dream for them. And I'm sure like all other coaches feel this way, or anyone that works with someone in this kind of capacity is that is that when you're done working with them, they then take what they've learned, and bring it out into the world and share it and help other people. And what a great example of that!Jodi 16:40Well, let me tell you another one, which is this is really like jumping ahead in in sort of missing the point here. Well, I guess not missing a point, right. We're here to talk. But jumping out of the executive functioning, which I'm sure that people who are listening want to hear, right. But taking a pause on that, since it's kind of going in this direction. He one of the parents, I was speaking to who was trying to get a feel for you know, talking to me about you know, what's it like to be to have a kid in this and, you know, a lot of parents are, you know, we have to sign up and for so many months, and you're worried about that, right? You know, we can deal with it. And, you know, my biggest thing is, it takes six, nine, twelve months to create a behavior. So you got to commit for six months. It's not going to work at three. It's probably not going to work at six. we're gonna say, you know, if you're here, it's because somebody's hit bottom. But with all that being said, the dad was like, would your son mind talking to my son, because, you know, I can't convince him that this is the thing. I'm willing to take the jump, but he needs to take the jump. And I'm like, Yeah, sure. never talked to my son about it. Yeah sure! He'll be home this weekend. So, you know, I go into his room. And I'm like, and he goes, Mom, what? He's like, what? And so I asked him if he would talk to him. He's like, Yeah, sure you have his phone number is a discord. So I give him his phone number. As I'm talking to him. Now, you're a coach, you've got to know and anybody listening who has a parent, or maybe is even in it themselves? Perseveration. Like, wait till later, is there a common denominator? And he's like, sure picks up his phone to (makes dialing sound) "What should I say?" I say something. And he's like, ah, that doesn't really sound like me since this thing. So then he shows it to me. He's like, What do you think about this? I'm like, just hit send. Hit Send. The kid responds right back 15 minutes later, they're on the phone. And, and, and I and I had to share this with his coach, because I think this is kind of exactly what you're saying. Like, you're hoping that not only are they going to benefit from this and find a better way to find themselves, their fit their way to fit and be successful in this crazy world they've been dumped into because we got to slowly progress right with, we didn't have executive functioning, we slowly learned the technology. They just woke up. We're born into the technology they didn't get to like, figure it out. So he says he's talking to this kid for at least 45 minutes and you know, pacing all over the house and stuttering through his words and trying to get his thoughts out and all that. And eventually he gets rolling. And he is the stuff he's saying. He's like, look, he's like, it's hard work. It's really it sucks. It sucks in the beginning. And I was at rock bottom. So I knew I had to do it because I there was nowhere else to go. And I didn't want to and I lied to my mom and I lied to my coach and and he's like, it's kind of hard to lie to him because they're on your computer and they're looking at what's going on. And he's like, You got to share your stuff. If you're not going to share your stuff. It's not even going to work like this is what he's saying. You know, and there's pauses the other kids like asking questions and uh huh. You know, and then he's like, you know, going on and on and on. Had to have been 45 minutes, I was talking to this kid, and I'm in the living room in tears. Yeah, I would want to cry the stuff the coach and I have been saying, you know, he's coming out of his mouth, he's like, You have to be really, I don't think he used the word transparent. But he basically said, you know, you have to be transparent. If you lie, you're only hurting yourself. Because guess what they're gonna find out, your parents are paying for it, they're gonna be mad, the coach is gonna tell your parents, you know, you've got to let them talk to your parents. And he's like, look, my coach talks to my mom. So now my mom doesn't bother me. So let your coach talk to your dad. Let your coach talk to your mom. Yeah. You know, he's like, let them all talk. And but he's, but it was the coolest piece about it was he was like, it sounds like you really should do it. He's like, it's gonna be really hard work. He goes, but you know, this, this is this is it's getting me through on passing. I'm learning. And what was one of the things he had said, I can't. He was talking about. You know, that? Oh, one of the other pieces he was saying. So the whole lying part. I mean, we literally just went back through that, right? He goes, it's gonna feel like you're not making any progress. Wow. Like, I feel like sometimes why am I wasting my time, I should just quit. I'm not making any progress. And then he's like, and then I think about where I was, and I pass this many classes, I failed some classes. I didn't lie, and I got really ahead, then I got excited. And then I fell behind. And he's like, like, and then the other thing he said, which I could not believe, is, "you have to be honest with yourself". I was like, is this kid eading from the book, you know, he's like, You have to be honest for yourself. And you have to ask for help. Right? In his coach has been like, and we both been like "Coby, until you have to ask for help." Guess what, you can't do it. Just acknowledge that this is your your he hates he won't use the word pattern anymore, because he has changed. And to him, he doesn't have the same patterns, even though looks that way to me. So but it's just like listening to him say all the things that his coach and I have been saying over and over and over again, coming out of his mouth. I want him to keep talking to his kids. Because the more he says it right, the more it becomes real for him. And he holds up the phone. And he was so pumped. He said, I think he's gonna sign up. I feel like he's gonna get help, like, I'm getting help. And it feels so good not to have all of that. He was also alone, because I don't get it. I have executive functioning. I've really good executive functioning. That makes no sense to me. You know, so Wow, that was that was a huge off the track.Hannah Choi 23:04Oh, I love it, though. It makes me think about like, if you were to, if you were to to check in with how you felt like when you heard that conversation, and think about back to when he first started and how you felt when he first started coaching. Like, at like, if you if if present day Jodi could tell past Jodi, like beginning of coaching Jodi, what would you tell yourself?Jodi 23:34I would say you're right to stick with it, you know, go the beaten path, because when we started, it was painful. He was depressed. And he has a therapist now. And he has his coach. And any a support group at school, like all these kids are now a support group to each other. And it was so painful because he started he ended up dropping out the fourth quarter, he had to withdraw from school. So he didn't get suspended for a year because he hadn't passed any classes. And so he was just he couldn't have been more bottom and he looked like, like, he looked like a cancer patient, the circles under his eyes, you know? And he said, he said "I need, I think I need help". And I said and so we did some research. We had a couple of things that we were looking at in this from you know, the school had not recommended you guys won't give me your name not solely recommended. And and so he was at rock bottom and he owned that he was at rock bottom before he just still kept thinking he was going to be able to do it. He was going to be able to catch up. He was going to be able to figure it out. And so we started we started a little bit he started a little bit of coaching really got to know his coach and they hit it off like good so well. Yeah. And we didn't need to go on to a second one or anything. It was a fantastically perfect match and still remains that way. But so he took a summer class so so the the last quarter he just went up, he worked like regular job worked and worked with the coach and we just did sort of life skills type stuff. They did, he did with them. And then we started a summer class. So summer classes were seven weeks. Okay. And it was community college, but it was still seven weeks and it was one class. One class seven weeks history. All writing okay. Oh, no, take that back. It wasn't history. It was psychology. All writing. I think it's his favorite classes ever taken. He hates writing any any doesn't like to look at himself. Right? It was incredible. You got an A in that class, right. So that was awesome. And then we roll into, but it was a great start. And then in the middle, he was crashing and burning. And then from that crash and burn trying to catch back up and getting an A, the teacher was so great with him, which is surprisingly, because the teacher really appeared to be really narcissistic. It was it the way he wrote the way he spoke the way his syllabus was written. It was very, it was like, I was like, this is interesting, but he loved my like the retrospect he just was like looking at himself and all of it. Yeah. So but the painful part was, as we went through those really, as we got that we did the second semester in the summer with two classes. I remember what they were. But he ended up getting a B and a C in those classes. And that that was that's where today's God, I wish I could go back and just like tap myself on the shoulder and give myself a hug and say, this is a right stick with it. Because I wasn't sleeping. He wasn't sleeping. He was it was it was painfully hard for him. His brain hurt, he couldn't sleep, he had headaches. I mean, it is a complete roto root of the way they function. You know, it's it's, it was it was so hard. It was so hard to watch. And I find that a lot of the parents that I'm talking to their kids are the earliest they don't think that their kids need that much help. But he needed that much help. And he's he was working through depression, but it was he has zero executive functioning. He doesn't understand time, how long will take you to get this done? Not even how long does it take you to go grocery store, which he's gone to 100,000 times now. He doesn't know how to organize himself. He doesn't know where to start. He doesn't know how to what comes first what comes second, none of it. So it was a lot to learn and implement and get graded on all the same time. Yeah, that is in he again. He just looked like a very, very ill person. And I knew I knew he had to stick with it. And but it was very painful. And so for any parents who do go into this in and see that, stick with it, support your kid, tell him they're doing a great job, he would consistently take one step forward, and two steps backwards. And one step forward. And one set, you know, it was like, it almost seemed like he was never getting any for traction. But then he did. Yeah. You know,Hannah Choi 28:32so what, like, for you, how did you? How did you handle that? Like how, like, what are strategies that you use for yourself? To when you like when you saw him take, you know, like one step forward and two steps back orJodi 28:50I didn't? I didn't always handle it. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean,Hannah Choi 28:55it's like, as a coach, it is. It's, it is so hard when you see that, but they're not our children. I mean, sometimes they feel like they're our children, but they're not. And I know like for myself when I see a client who's you know, struggling like that. It's really hard. And, and, and it requires so much patience. And it requires like so much looking for these tiny little wins and recognizing like, oh, wait, okay, so we're like not doing well in all these other areas. But this one little tiny nugget of gold has been found. So like, what, what what did you like for yourself to get through thatJodi 29:40you handed in one out of three homeworks in a week? That's better than zero and a three homeworks I mean, that's what we were celebrating. Yeah. And he got up and went to class, online live and didn't watch the recording once this week. I was like, This is what like yeah, Ah, it was it, it was so hard. But for in for me, I didn't do it graciously. So any parents out there who aren't I would, I would handle it horribly in in fall into my own patterns, which is, which, you know, we talked about before we started recording, I was watching this, listening to this other podcast one day and I was crying because I thought, oh my god, I'm the worst parent in the world, I have alienated my child, trying to make him like me. And treating them like he was just a bad kid who didn't want wasn't motivated or, you know, was lazy, they get these lazy labels, they don't have the skill. So. So I went back and forth just like he did, I took two steps forward, one step backwards and one step forward and half step backwards, you know, I would support him one day, and the next day, I would get frustrated and be like, how could you not have had it in your homework? And so that's where the coach came in.Hannah Choi 31:00Oh, and so how did how did that change it for you.Jodi 31:05So I still communicated with I communicate with a coach. And so once he established a relationship with my son, and he established a relationship with me, and I was very clear with him, you need to call me out, you need to call me out. And it doesn't matter if feelings get hurt, I'm not gonna go tattling to, you know, to anybody to say, your main we want a new coach said you need to call me out, I need you to point to me and say back off back off, not your role. And he did. And he actually had a very long phone call with me where I was in tears. And he was just very honest. And I appreciated it. And I think without really he knew he could do that. I would imagine that you guys can't do that with everybody. 31:54No, yeah, and my experience actually, my I mostly work with college and adults. And, and the parents of the kids that I have worked with, have in general not been involved. And so it, but what you said is so important how like your like your coach, the relationship between the coach, and the person being coached is so important. But the network, the support network of the person being coached, in a lot of situations is a big part of it. And so you have a trust and rapport with your coach with your child's coach, or, you know, or whoever. I mean, it could be your partner's coach, like if you're an adult, if you're, you know, if you're an adult and you have a partner, the partner might, you know, also need to be get some reassurance from the coach. So, right, it's right, it depending on the needs of the people in the support network of the person being coached. So that's wonderful that you are able to get that.Jodi 32:55Yeah, so he's been fantastic. I didn't really think about that. And I know some of the parents that I've talked to, they're just like, I don't really know what my son does, but I just found out that he's not passing any of his classes. And I thought to myself, Oh, yeah. Oh, you know, but then that parents like, Oh my God, how could you be so into your kids stuff? Like back off, you know? So,Hannah Choi 33:15And there's no right way to do it? And right, and what you said, like about listening to the podcast, and then crying and feeling like, you know, what am I doing? Like, how much of parenting is this guilt? Right? This like, guilt that we put on ourselves? No matter what, we're not doing it right. I mean, I don't know about you, but I that's something that I struggle with as a parent often. And yeah, and it's it's...Jodi 33:39You just hope in the end, you didn't screw them up too bad.Hannah Choi 33:45Meanwhile, here we all are here we all are going to therapy. Yeah, yeah. Jodi 33:53But the coach, I am, I am, again, super close with my kids. And in you know, you could label it helicopter parenting, I would say I am not the Nancy helicopter parent, but I am definitely in there trying to recognize where they need help and helping them acknowledge that they have deficits and that I'm here to give them resources. Like with my daughter, she needed resources with coaching and soccer and she didn't really need we needed medical resources when she got diagnosed, and my son has been, you know, social environments. What kind of sport can we get him into where he doesn't feel like he's getting bullied and I created a robotics program at the high school so that he could get into robotics and ran that, you know, so that's the kind of involvement I have. I try not to like overly, you know, manage your schedule, all that it's definitely what they want. And then I help them find the resources and move in that direction, but very emotionally involved with my kids and our coach is just incredible. He knows that he can just, say "this is your role, mom. You know, I talked to Coby today you've overstepped" You need to support them, you need to support them in this way. Yeah, this is the best way to support them. Not this stuff. Don't ask any of these questions ever, ever, ever, ever? Yeah, these are your questions that you can ask, this is your role in the supporting. And so I think that we've gotten there really gotten there, I, I'm very backed off, and I'm just my role is to watch his phone to make sure he goes to classes. Now that's my role.Hannah Choi 35:24There you go, that's great. Jodi 35:26His role is to have his fingers in his work, know what he's doing, you know, criticize, or whatever it is that you guys do when they don't do the right thing and help to redirect them and all that, but it's, it's, um, it's really, it's just, in the parents that I talked to, some of them are just like, well, we don't need that much. I'm like, then you don't doesn't matter. They're giving me what we need. They're gonna give you anyway. Yeah, yeah. And one of the things I tell the parents, when I talk to them is like, Look, your contacts are there to hear your honest, whatever it might be. And if you're a helicopter parent, and you're doing too much your contacts are gonna say, this might be why this isn't working, it might actually be the coach, we might need to work with you a little bit, you know, or they, you might, it might not be a good match, and you don't like the communication and they'll change that. That's the great thing about you guys is you're like if there's something wrong, yeah, you'll make it work.Hannah Choi 36:19 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think something that you said earlier made me think about a conversation I was just having with one of my adult clients who were talking about trust, and how, how so much of going through executive function coaching is about trust and about trusting yourself, and about trusting your coach, and just trusting the process. And like you said, in the very beginning, and which is something that I feel like I say, like a broken record is it takes a really long time. And so trusting all of the parts of it yourself and your coach and, and the process and, and the tools that you try and everything, it's and that's such a huge part of it. And ah, I forgot what I was going to say - where I was going with that. But anyway, it's a big deal. Jodi 36:45I have one parent who at at my son's school, who I directed to you guys who has, I don't know where she's at right now. But she had gone to the matching coach matching process. And she called me and she goes, this is how it went for me. Is this, is this how it went for you? And I said, Well, no, but when you're in that meeting, did you say, Hey, I feel like you glazed over A, B and C? And that's really important to me? Well, no, I didn't know if I could37:39You gotta speak up!37:39Yeah, be honest, the kids have to be honest, the moms have to be honest. Like all of that. Let them know how you feel. This isn't personal. At all. Yeah, if you if you don't like your contact, let let somebody know that you need to change. And this is why or talk to your contact about why you feel you're not in touch. These people are all about matching and functioning and making it work and trust, right? There's no trust, even if they're they did nothing wrong. It's just not the right match or there isn't trust. So they need to find a new person that there will be trust with and it might not have anything to do with either. Yeah. So she's like, okay, all right. I'm gonna call it that. That's better than not calling back and just walking away from itHannah Choi 38:30You know, everything you're saying is just making me so glad that we're that we decided to do this podcast because it, it's it, it's showing me like how valuable hearing someone else's story is, and how that right there is such a huge part of asking for help, like what your son said, you know, like, I think I need some help. And in and reaching out and asking, like, can you tell me your story so that I can figure out like, where mine fits in, you know, and what my needs are and everything. So that's wonderful. Thanks for sharing all that. Jodi 39:04Yeah, of course. Hannah Choi 39:07I love I, I was thinking about something else that you said. And you were saying, you are really involved with your kids. And but I was thinking about how you have you, you really have had to be since the beginning with your son being diagnosed so early with ADHD. And then with your daughter becoming having such high, you know, intense medical needs. You can't you as a parent of a child with you know, those medically fragile, you you need to be involved. You know, you can't. You don't have the choice of, of being hands off. So, so it doesn't surprise me that you continue to be like that, because that's just how you have always parented and thank goodness you are because your son knew that he could go to you and say that Like, I need help, and that you recognized it that you saw it in him. And you realize, like, something's off here.Jodi 40:08Yeah, yeah. Well, that was worried before we even started, you know, so but yeah, like, you know, part of part of my career and in what I do, even on the side, you know, I've had a couple of friends, one whose son ended up fell down the stairs, in his 20s, you know, fell down the stairs or got a brain injury. And, you know, the system right now, especially with COVID, you know, and another friend who's, whose good friend was dying of cancer. So we have these two situations where they're in the hospital system, and nobody's giving them any information. And they think that that's okay. So it's, it's sort of the same thing, teaching them working with them as as a case manager type liaison to help get their answers and move things in the right direction, get the person with cancer discharged home, get the kid, you know, the right care, and, you know, communicate the home needs and rehab and things like that, and just educating the family. Do that with my kids, like we all. That's, that's how I roll. And that's how they roll. And everything is very, everything's very open in our family in regards to anything going on. There's there's no issue, you know, my kids will tell anybody who puts them on a podcast. So go ahead and put my son on a podcast, my mom needs to butt out. I'm just like, Look, guys, you can't go from having all these years of needing me and asking me for help, to all the sudden "Thanks a lot, we got this!" I'm like, Look, I need a transition.Hannah Choi 41:41Yeah, I need that too!Jodi 41:44I need to transition out as well. For myself, I actually have been working with a life coach, to balance myself with all the stuff going on with my kids don't my kids growing up not needing me that I'm getting all the resources, my daughter is taking over all of her own medical care. My son has a coach who's taking care of him and a therapist. So just finding that balance and finding me because me has just been helping these kids with all these needs. Yeah, who are you want to yours? Right? Yeah. And so I'm like, Well, what do I do if I'm not helping you if I'm not up in your business, and so when they're like, You got to get out of our business. So the coach is my life coach has been great. She's, she's got me to start reading again. She had me create a reading nook in my house and bedroom that's like my no phone, no TV, no, nothing. Mom's you know, and even my son will come in and he'll be like, Oh, you're already reading. Hannah Choi 42:41Wonderful, and how important that self care is. Right? And when we are caught up in all the busyness of, of the challenges of life. Yeah, it's it's that's like the first thing that we that I think a lot of people like, oh, and it's probably actually the last thing we should like. Right. But it's so hard. It's so hard to prioritize that. That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you. So great.Jodi 43:07Thanks. We're all a work in progress.Hannah Choi 43:09It's true. We really are. And, and I'm, I am very, I personally am very open talking about the things that I have challenges with. And I think that when you can be open like that, and recognize like, no one is perfect. And everyone needs help. In whatever form it is. It's it's so freeing. It's so freeing to just be like, Yeah, this is me.Jodi 43:35This is me. I'm not perfect. I need help, too. And we're all different. And that's okay.Hannah Choi 43:41We need to be different. Yeah, otherwise, be weird.Jodi 43:46Yeah, who don't want to be the same drone walking around?Hannah Choi 43:49Yeah. That's so great. Um, let me see. So what are you looking forward to like, for your son for yourself? For like, you know, I mean, obviously, you are thinking about yourself in the future, because you, you know, you got yourself a life coach, and you're reading again, and you know, and you're taking time for yourself, but what are you looking for forward, forward to?Jodi 44:17I, you know, I my, my big thing is just when, and I just started sort of looking at like, what am I you know, what does my life look like? And I think this happens with everybody who's who's empty nesting even. But for for my son and for my daughter, I mean, she is really moving in a place where she is she's really taking control of herself recognizing her deficits understanding that she can't move as fast as everybody else and she's really finding finding her place and she's gonna have challenges her whole life even if she didn't have MS. You know, so she's really going into she's really gotten herself sort of in that direction now, which is exciting. So I'm just looking forward to when my son Coby is, is doing that same thing. And he's moving in that direction. Yeah. And I think the first glimpse of it was was this past week listening to him talk to that other kid. I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening. Hannah Choi 45:15It's happening. It's really happening. It's happening.Jodi 45:17Yeah. And there's no particular like, check the box. Okay, it's been done. It's been done, I can move on. Yeah, but there they, I didn't think that it would ever be happening with him. He's just always just so I'm, is his father is a lot similar. And his father has to have a - We're divorced. But we've been divorced for a long time. So and and, he really has to have a wife and a secretary to be successful. Right? He needs the wife for the regular life stuff, and kids and everything else. And he needs the Secretary, because of the executive functioning, right? So the wife not. And so my thing is, I don't want my son to need a wife. And that's a big reason why we I would have to say, we've probably got divorced because for me, it felt like he was just lazy and wouldn't do anything. And I was doing everything right. Yeah, he needs that wife for that. And then he's the secretary. So I want my son to not need that. I want him to be able to give what he has to give to somebody without them feeling like they're, they're giving everything right, you know, and he's taking and so and I see him doing that.Hannah Choi 46:27I was just gonna say he's on his way to that. Jodi 46:30Already started that. Yeah. That's what I'm, that's what I want. And it's going there. So we're sticking we are sticking with it. I was just gonna say and he, I mean, he even has plans as much as I think one of the things that you guys always say is the point is not to stay on forever, right? The point is not to stay an executive coach with this person forever. It's to teach them the tools and let them go free. And that takes a while and parents will ask me how long does that take? Like? It's just like, my brain injuries. Everyone's different. But it's gonna take over a year. I really don't have a whole lot. Yeah, yeah. Like my son's always already like, okay, so when I've got this going, I still want to work with you on public speaking, I still want to work with you on better healthy lifestyles and activities. And so he's already planning. When I'm perfect. This is what we're gonna work on next.Hannah Choi 47:25So he's really thinking into the future for himself, too, which is so that's so beautiful. Yeah, I love that. How wonderful. Yeah, I have, like I mentioned before, when before we started recording, I'm my I'm coming up on four years with one of my clients, and she's in eighth grade. Now, I started working with her when she was in fourth grade. And with my, the session we had on Monday, it was just like the entire session was this gift of all of these things that that I have been working with her on over the years. And she just like, did all the things. Like she tried something new, and she was gonna ask your teacher for help. And she, she, like, breathe. She like we're working on breathing before, like during taking a test because she rushes through tests. And she told me, I breathed before every question. And she said, you know, that was the easiest science test I've ever taken. I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah. And it's, I mean, yeah, it's taken a long time for us to get there. But it's just so wonderful seeing her taking these skills that she's learning. And she's already thinking about, well, how can I apply them in the future? And that he's doing that too. It's just48:40You've like, just turned a leaf. It's like you, and there's possible you'll roll back or whatever? Hannah Choi 48:46Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Jodi 48:47And how lucky she is to have had you for four years at that age. 48:51How lucky am I? Oh, my gosh. It's just she is lodged in my heart, man. She's just she's just such an amazing person. I'm actually going to be interviewing her mom in a couple of weeks. And it's just yeah, it's it's beautiful to see as a coach, and I imagine that your son's coach has has had a similar emotional experience watching him, you know, just to go through what he's gone through. And how long has I can't remember if you said this before, but how long have they been coaching together?Jodi 49:25I think we're just we're we're close to a year where I think we're just under a year because he it was after he made it through three quarters. Right. So finals are this week of the third quarter. So that took me a couple of weeks to find you guys so so we're coming very close to just a year just to your he's got a lot of work ahead of him. Yeah. So you know and is Coach isn't going anywhere. I'm not gonna let him go on and Yeah, yeah, they have such a respect. You know, like there's there's such a respect I'm just I, what we've seen in a year how hard, it's so hard for him still, but I just can't say this enough where he's come already, you know, you could look at him on a big global and be like, he hasn't really gotten anywhere. But that's just not true. He's off academic probation, he didn't get suspended. He, you know, like those, that's a big deal. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:19And, you know, you mentioned in the beginning confidence and how, like, that comes up all the time, parents will say, you know, like, I just want my child to feel more confident. And I think I think feeling better about your own executive function skills makes you just just just naturally you feel more confident. Like I know, for myself, like I told you in the beginning, I have terrible memory. And and I used to not use a planner, or anything, I wouldn't, I would just like occasionally write have to do no to do lists and write stuff down. But I would just try to rely on my terrible memory. And yeah, it was like, not a great decision.51:00That would stress me out so much. I have to write everything down.Hannah Choi 51:03Yeah, now I'm like obsessively checking my planner. But when I went, I guess when I was in grad school, like when I was in college in high school and grad school, then I wrote I did I kept a planner during then. But then I think I just thought, like, Oh, I'm not in school anymore. So I don't have to have a planner anymore. But, but my confidence, just like went down the toilet. Because I just started thinking, Oh, well, I'm just like, not a good friend. And I'm not a good partner, because I'm forgetting these things. And then I realized, wait, I just need to write them down. And then I'm not gonna forget them anymore. And, and it, it gave me my confidence back. And so for kids who, especially for kids who have challenges in many executive function areas, you can you can imagine how that would erode your confidence pretty darn quick.Jodi 51:53You're a failure every minute of the day. Yeah, no matter what you do, every minute of the day, he was a failure. That's what I had me crying when I was listening to other podcasts. Yeah, he was basically a failure constantly. And then he started lying. Because, right. He's failing. And so it gets you off his back for totally. Yeah. Hannah Choi 52:10You know, it's a protective a protective action. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And, and like he said, You can't lie. That's so wonderful. So he went from lying to saying, like, you can't lie. Yeah, that's great. Not doesn't mean he's still not going to. And this is a kid who used to never be able to lie. He had the worst face. Everybody could tell, you know, he got good at it as he got further into high school. And it was a skill. But yeah, I mean, not to say he's not going to do it. But I'm just like, Oh, my God, keep the kids coming for him to talk to because the more he says this out, yes, the more he'll stop before he does it. Because it's, you know, it's being repeated. And it's being shared. And it's, what if that kid calls him back later? Because he said, you have my number anyway. I Yeah. And if it's a year from now, give me a call if you need me. What's he gonna say? I don't lie to my coach the whole year. No, I Yeah. I lied to you, too. You know, just kidding. Yeah, I think, I think, like when I think about my client that I've been working with for four years, and I think about the messages that I've given to her over the years, and it's taken a really long time for those to sink in. And I think like, like how you said that you want that you hope that he, you know, continues to have those conversations with those kids, and continues to say that, because I think whether we tell ourselves the same message over and over again, or someone else tells it like someone that we trust, and that we that doesn't sound like nagging or whatever, that eventually it does sink in, and it does, you know, it you like, like she said to me, because I've always said to her, you know, where we're just, you know, if you can do these things, it will make your life easier, you know, things won't be so hard. And, and we've, you know, we've been saying that for I've been saying that for years to her. And she said to me on Monday night, while school is still boring, but it's so much easier. Oh, yeah.Jodi 54:15That is like, that is like the moment where you just celebrate.Hannah Choi 54:19Yeah, and you'd but I think just you have to hear it. You have to hear it from yourself. And you have to hear it from the people around you that you trust again and again. And I think that's kind of why coaching takes so long is because it just takes a long time for those message for you to like truly believe those messages. And then once you believe them, you have to put actions with them.Jodi 54:40Right? Right. Once you're like wait, it works. Now you have to make that intention happen over and over.54:46Yeah, and now he's got all this great evidence that he can do things. And so when he does slide back, which he will I mean, we all do you know, like even you and executive function Master, I'm sure there are times where you're like, Oh, I really screwed that up. You know? Oh, yeah, yeah, we're notJodi 55:07Because all the things you don't prioritize, like, whatever. And you know, afterwards you're like, I knew better. Yeah, I knew better. But in the moment, it felt easier.Hannah Choi 55:17Yeah, I'm so glad that's just such a wonderful story. Thank you so much for sharing today and for sharing with the other parents, I'm sure that you have, you know, made such a difference in, like, if you think about if you can change one parent or not change one parent, but give one parent the confidence to hook their kid up with a coach. And then, and then that kid then has the success that their son is experiencing? And then he then goes on and talks to someone else. Like, that's wonderful. Like, how many ripples that we create? 55:54So yeah, so many ripples. Yeah, yeah, in, in that whole point is just parents get definitely some of the ones I've been talking to. And you've obviously probably talked to them too, like, some of the timeline is really a focus for some of them. And I'm like,Hannah Choi 56:09Yeah, and it's hard. I mean, it's expensive. It's, you know, it's definitely not like a, but, you know, I just said to someone the other day, actually a friend of mine, who was who is interested in, in coaching, and, you know, we were talking about how it's, it's actually it's an investment, it is very expensive, but it's an investment that will not stop paying off when you're done it, you know, it will continue to pay off. I mean, I know myself just like, being a coach, like I have, I don't have great executive function skills, but I have I have been able to, you know, I know, like a ton of strategies, I know what works for me. And, and I continue to see, like, how challenging it is to keep them keep up with it. But how, in doing in doing it, and in improving my own executive function skills, how it has such a positive impact on all aspects of my life. And it's just so great.Jodi 57:10So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I and him talking to the kids. I mean, I just can't, like, you're right. It's the Pay It Forward, just keeps going and keeps going. And if one parent joins and sticks with it, and does it, and the financial piece of it, is it I'm a single mom in, in, my son goes to a private engineering school. And we don't get any financial aid. Well, like I he gets loans. I happen to make just enough money, that we don't get to get any financial aid.57:45Yeah, so you're like, right in between? 57:47Yeah, exactly. So you know, it's, it's, it's a struggle to pay it. But the reality is, you know, my daughter's treatment is like, $300,000, twice a year. And it's covered by insurance, right? Yeah. But if it wasn't covered by insurance, I would be in debt up to my ears, because she can't be your brain can't be decompensating, she's 22 years old. So you know, I feel the same about my son, you know, some for a period of time, it was a huge struggle. And sometimes I get caught up and I, the coach, might his coach knows that the extra time is always approved. He never would have used extra time with my son and it's always on like, you need extra day you need to, it's always approved. So you know, for me, there is no dollar amount I could put on my child and you can't always say that, you know, you can only come up with so much money, right? Right. Yep. But it is expensive. But I if you can make ends meet and make it happen, it's worth it. In the end, lots of time, sometimes lots of pain, lots of patience and lots of money, but it will always keep paying it forward for your kid or for yourself, always.Hannah Choi 59:08So that's it for today. I'm so glad you're here and you took time out of your day to listen, I really hope that you found something useful and something that resonated with you and Jodi's story. If you've subscribed to the podcast, you'll be getting an email with some resources related to today's episode. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can do so at our website, www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to the resources and tools I mentioned. Thanks for listening

Ben and Lexi reminisce about the quintessential coming of age movies of our youth - kind of. Dork You Forget About Me find Ben and Lexi looking back at classic 80's teen movies. Both Lexi and Ben struggled to fit in with humans and had to turn to movies to learn how to be a teen, which means watching copious amounts of John Hughes! In this episode, Ben and Lexi dork out about classic John Hughes movies, which holding them up to the test of time. Have these movies aged well? Listen now and find out! Show Notes:Lexi and Ben talked about the following movies:Uncle BuckThe Breakfast Club16 CandlesPretty in PinkHome AloneFootlooseWeird ScienceFerris Bueller's Day OffPump Up the VolumeCan't Hardly WaitAnd more!The  full list of John Hughes movies can be found hereYou can find the episode of Art Intervention we mentioned hereWe talked about  Margaret Atwood being a TERF and you can read about the 2018 conflict here and the more recent one hereSOCIALS:Here's where you can find us!Lexi's website and twitter and instagramBen's website and instagram and where to buy his book: Amazon.ca / Comixology / Ind!go / Renegade ArtsDork Matter's website(WIP) and twitter and instagramIf you're enjoying Dork Matters, we'd really appreciate a nice rating and review on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pods. It would very much help us get this show to the other dorks out there.“We're all pretty bizarre. Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all.” Transcript:Lexi  00:00One time I was driving to work and listening to like, you know, rap and I like aggressive hip hop, and I was listening--Ben  00:08[chuckles] Someday I'll ask you to define that, but not now.Lexi  00:12Okay, so, like, for example, I was listening to Run The Jewels one day, [Run The Jewels plays] which I wouldn't even classify as, like, super aggressive anyway, and I was trying to psych myself, like, "I gotta get in this building. I gotta be, like, in a good mood and talk to people all day," and so I was listening to it, fully cranked, and the windows were flexing, and I didn't realize there was just like a sea of children sitting there watching me, like, pound coffee, and try to, like, psych myself and, like, "Get out of the car, go inside,"  and it's just like, "Well, whoa, nope! Sorry, kids. I'm just gonna turn that off real quick". [music stops] I don't know what happened. [laughs]Ben  00:50I don't know how to get myself psyched up. When I worked in an office, I had about a 15- to 20-minute walk to work to, sort of like, just not be the person I normally am, and become work person. That didn't always work. I still a pretty grumpy shithead, usually. I don't like being bothered, and, you know, being in an office means you're just constantly bothered. It doesn't matter what you're trying to do.Lexi  01:15And you have to make small talk. Like, yuck. Ben  01:17Yeah, I had to learn how to do that. I've always been an introvert and making eye contact with people, when you have a conversation and just like... And so, I'm actually pretty good at just talking bullshit now with people. I don't like it. I don't like doing it. I don't like this other version of me is just talking to people, and I'm just like, "Eugh. Glad I'm not that guy."Lexi  01:36There are so many times where I'll finish doing, like, a presentation or having small talk with someone, and I'll go away and I'll be like, "Oh, she's terrible," and I'm referring to me. Like, I hate that part of me like, [upbeat] "Hey, how's it going?" I'm like, "Eugh! God."Ben  01:51Yeah. So that's an interesting thing with, like, being a stay-at-home parent now too, is like, I don't get to go to a different place and be a different person for a while, and divorce myself from who I think I am, versus the person I have to be in a work setting. Now, it's all just me, and it's all just gotta try to do well all the time. Lexi  02:11That sounds hard. Oh.Ben  02:13Can't phone it in like I used to when I'd go to the office. [laughs]Lexi  02:17Well, I mean, you could. You could just like plunk him in the laundry basket in front of the TV.Ben  02:21No. I mean, I'm incapable of doing that.Lexi  02:24That's good. That's good.Ben  02:25I am your Cyclops archetype. I am responsible to a fault. "No Fun Ben", I think, is what I  used to be called.Lexi  02:33Oh, I was the old wet blanket. Ben  02:35You know, you guys would be like, "Let's go to a party and get drunk." I'm like, "I don't know about that. I gotta be home by 9 PM and, you know, we're underage." [laughs]Lexi  02:43I do remember being at a party at your place when you lived with Brandon, and in the middle of the party, you did start doing dishes. [Ben laughs] I remember, I was like, "Hmm, this is interesting."Ben  02:55They were stacking up. You gotta keep 'em clean. You gotta keep them clean. That's just respectful to other people.Lexi  03:00Fun is fun, guys, but come on. Like, clean up after yourselves.Ben  03:04"No, no. Y'all keep having fun. I'll clean the dishes." That's a nice thing for me to do. [laughs]Lexi  03:08I was the wet blanket in terms of like, you know, at the sleepovers, I'd go, "Oh, it's getting late, ladies. It's probably some shut-eye time."Ben  03:16Oh, god. You're lucky you didn't get Sharpied every time.Lexi  03:20Those people, I think maybe they were like, "Is she...? Is she, like, you know...? Should we be nice to her because she's not all there?"Ben  03:29"The same as us."Lexi  03:29Yeah. And sometimes I kind of wondered, like, "Did they think that I am maybe on the spectrum or something?" which I kind of wonder if I am sometimes.Ben  03:38God, I wonder all the time if I am, and I'm not trying to say that as a joke. Like, I constantly--Lexi  03:41No, no.Ben  03:43--wonder if my inability to connect with people is something neurodivergent.Lexi  03:49Oh, do you do-- okay, sometimes I'll watch people. I'll watch-- like, especially when it comes to women, and when I was a teenager, I would watch groups of girls interact, and I felt like I was watching, like, a nature program. Like, "Ah. That is how the female species puts on makeup," and it never made sense to me to like go up to them and be like, "Hey, gals, let's all put our makeup on together." I was just, like, so awkward that I didn't understand how to talk to them.Ben  04:18Yeah. The thing for me was that I was just always felt on outside, as well. Like, I never felt like I had a group of friends in any situation. Part of that was moving schools a lot. Part of that was never feeling like I connected with other individuals. So yeah. No, I definitely should probably figure out if I'm--Lexi  04:35But I think that that's a great thing that people are learning more about themselves at all times because sometimes, like, I'll talk to adults that are like, "Well, I probably have a learning disability and that would have made school a lot easier, but what's the point in finding out now?" I'm like, "Well, why wouldn't you?"Ben  04:51How would that make... Well and, like, record scratch. [scratching record DJ-style] How would that make school more easy for you? Would you have had maybe more support? Maybe, but maybe not. It depends on where you were, what kind of, like, financial supports the school had, what your parents believed. Like, you know, there's no reason to think, like, if you have a disability, you have it easy. That's a wild take.Lexi  05:11Yeah, I think you can... You're right. Like, it depends on where you are, that you can access different types of supports, but I think we're also moving towards a more inclusive education model in the old Canada, where you should be treating everybody... It's like, it's technically universal design for learning where everybody should benefit from like, you know, flexible due dates, and, like, more understanding progressive assessment practices, because, yeah, like if you do have a disability, and you need a little bit more support, that's great, but if you don't, you can still get support, too, and that's fine, too. Ben  05:49Yeah. Lexi  05:50But, ah, that's interesting. This is maybe a good, like, introduction, though, because as teenagers when we were watching, trying to learn how to be a teenager, you turn to movies to try to understand, like, how to fit in.Ben  06:05Right. So the question is, like, "Should we have ever even looked at those other groups and people and been like, 'I'm supposed to be that way?' Or was that something we were taught by John Hughes and his movies?"Lexi  06:18Oh, John Hughes. I'm so conflicted. Ben  06:21So we're here tonight, as you've certainly guessed, to talk about '80s teen movies. You know 'em. You love 'em. We are going to revisit our memories of those movies, talk about some things that don't really hold up, some things that do just fine, and some things that are problematic and it matters to dorks. Wow, that was rough. Lexi  06:47That was-- I won't lie about it. It wasn't your best.Ben  06:51No, let's hit the theme song and let's try again after. [Lexi laughs] [theme music "Dance" by YABRA plays] Ben  07:22Welcome to Dork Matters--Voiceover  07:24[echoing] Dork Matters.Ben  07:24--the show by and for dorks, made by dorks, in a tree of dorks. We're like little dork elves, Keebler elves that make you dork cookies.Lexi  07:34Oh, I like that. Ben  07:36Yeah.Lexi  07:36That's a nice little image.Ben  07:38Yeah. Lexi  07:39We grow on trees.Ben  07:40[chuckling] Yeah, or are we are inside of trees, baking tree.Lexi  07:44Yeah, 'cause we don't like the outside so much. Ben  07:46No, I'm not an outside person. [Lexi laughs] I am your Dad Dork host, Ben Rankel, and with me, as always is...Lexi  07:53Your Movie Buff Dork, Lexi Hunt.Ben  07:56Oh, wow. No alliteration at all. You're just flying--Lexi  07:59Nah, just gettin' right in there. You know what? Fuck it.Ben  08:03You are going to have to be the movie buff dork tonight. I have tried to bone up on our subject, and I'm like, "Good God, I need a week to prepare for this by rewatching every single teen movie from the '80s," because that's what we're here to talk about tonight, or today, or whenever you're listening to this. Time is a flat circle. [chuckles] We're here to talk about teen movies of the '80s.Lexi  08:26[sing-songy] I love this episode.Ben  08:30The good, the bad, the ugly, the ones that hold up really well, the ones that do not hold up. We're gonna just shoot the shit on teen movies 'cause that's what we do. Lexi  08:39Oh, yeah.Ben  08:40We're gonna get a bunch of shit wrong, as usual, and that's half the fun here.Lexi  08:44Can I start by saying, like, how many movies did John Hughes create? My god, that man was prolific. Ben  08:51Yeah. So it depends on if we wanna look at whether he directed it, or produced it, or whatever, but if we just go by Wikipedia filmography, let's count these out. 1, 2, 3, 4... (fast-forwarded counting) 38. 38 different films.Lexi  09:16And a lot of them, like, I didn't actually know that he did some of them. Some of them, of course, I was like, "I knew that one. That's a John Hughes," but, like, Maid in Manhattan? What?Ben  09:27Yeah. Flubber.Lexi  09:28He was part of Flubber.Ben  09:30He was part of Flubber. He produced Flubber. Yeah, all the Home Alone's, right up to Home Alone 4: Taking Back the House, that seminal classic. We watch it every year at Christmas. Not the earlier three Home Alone's, just Home Alone 4, the one everyone remembers.Lexi  09:47Yeah, the one that went straight to VHS release.Ben  09:50Yeah. I think, unfortunately, it was even DVD at that point. Just DVD. [Lexi groans]Lexi  09:55But then there's so many great ones too, that... Actually, I was talking to John about, you know, "What movies did you guys watch when you were growing up that we you would classify as a teen movie?" and he was more in the action side of the '80s and '90s movies, so he was like, "I can talk to you about The Rock. How do you feel about that?" But not so much... I think he said that they watched Breakfast Club in school, which I find incredible. Like, "Why did you watch that in school?!" Like, listening to it, there's so many messed-up things like Emilio Estevez talks about supergluing a guy's butt crack together. Like, "I know, and I'm going to show my grade nines today." [chuckles theatrically]Ben  10:38And that's one of the tamer things that happens in that film, like, that doesn't hold up. [Lexi laughs] I mean, we might as well get into it. Let's start with the seminal classic, The Breakfast Club with, you know, the greatest brat cast that you've ever seen. Everyone has seen this movie. We all know how it ends, that jumping fist pump in the air. [Simple Minds "Don't You (Forget About Me)" plays]Lexi  11:00You can hear the music right now, can't you?Ben  11:01[sings] Don't you forget about me.Lexi  11:03And I gotta say, best soundtrack. Ben  11:07[sings] Forget about you.Lexi  11:10[sings] Don't you... [speaks] I also like that like weird slide guitar. [sings descending glissando, imitating slide guitar] That's a great '80s sound right there.Ben  11:17[chuckling] I want you to do it again. [Lexi sings imitation along with slide guitar] Nice. Let's start a band.Lexi  11:23I can play the mouth trumpet. [laughs] And that's... Okay, that sounds really dirty, but it's actually like... [sings melody, buzzing lips] [laughs]Ben  11:29I can play the mouth harp, as well, as long as we're embarrassing ourselves. [Lexi laughs] [harmonica plays] That's right. I play harmonica, as if I couldn't get any loser-ier. That's a word.Lexi  11:37Hey, man, I played the clarinet in the old high-school band for many years. [clarinet plays basic melody] Ben  11:41I think I played clarinet at one point, too, in the band. Lexi  11:46It's a great instrument. So Breakfast Club, which is weird, because Sixteen Candles... Okay, let's let's go through--Ben  11:55I feel like Sixteen Candles is probably the greatest offender of any teen movie--Lexi  11:59Oh.Ben  11:59--we're gonna talk about.Lexi  12:00It's so bad. Yeah. Ben  12:03And, you know, everyone loves Breakfast Club. I feel like maybe Sixteen Candles is a little less watched, still. I mean, we can talk about 'em both, but let's turn to Breakfast Club, first. Let's talk about some of the fucked-up shit that you remember happening and see if it's all true. You guys let us know if we make up anything.Lexi  12:19I couldn't get over the fact that, first of all, I was like, "Who the hell has detention on the weekend?" Because that's more of a punishment to the teachers than anything. Like--Ben  12:29Yeah, that's not happening. Lexi  12:31And what parent would be like, "Yeah"? Parents would be like, "No, I'm not doing that." [laughs]Ben  12:37Yeah, "You wanna keep my kid half an hour after school, that's one thing."Lexi  12:42Like, "Go nuts." Ben  12:42But yeah, they're not coming in on a weekend." And what teacher wants to do that? Like, you're not getting paid for that. Is that extra-curricular at that point? [Lexi blows through lips]Lexi  12:50I think that there's just so many issues with detention as-- like, that's a whole other issue. But to, like, spend your weekend... I know they're trying to demonstrate that, like, the character of-- god, what is his name? The assistant principal who hauls everybody in. It just shows what a miserable git he is. But, eugh, to me, like, that, already, I was like, "This movie is just setting me up for"--Ben  13:15Principal Richard Vernon, who, like, already is a problem, because this guy just treats these children--Lexi  13:21He's so horrible.Ben  13:22--and they are children, just awful. Yeah, just like a way that he would have lost his job if it was nowadays. There's no way he keeps his job past that weekend. There's no way he keeps his job past, like, his first interaction with, I think, Emilio Estevez with the stupid devil horns and, like, [in devil voice] "the rest of your natural born..." That'd be on TikTok. In, like, five minutes, there'd be a whole crowd of people knocking down his doors. The school board trustees, they'd be like, "Nah, you don't have a job anymore."Lexi  13:46And, as well they should. Like, you can't... There's one part in the movie where Judd Nelson's character--Ben  13:53Bender.Lexi  13:54--is playing basketball in the gym, and he's like, "I'm thinking about going out for a scholarship," and that's such a great point that, like, he could have just been like, "Okay, let's play," and then like, look, you're building relationship and you're not being a complete d-bag. Then, like, get to know him! Just play basketball with him. It's, literally, a Saturday, and you're sitting in your office. You may as well.Ben  14:16Yeah. Instead, he yells at him, if I remember correctly, and tells him he's never going anywhere. Lexi  14:21Yeah, that he's a, you know, piece of trash. Just, you don't talk to people that way. It's terrible. So, it's so, just, offensive to... You should never treat anyone like that, and you should never, 100%, have teachers speaking to students that way. That's just unacceptable.Ben  14:38The movie is in the National Film Registry of the Library of Congress, for its culturally, historically, and aesthetically significant nature, so that's something that I didn't just read off of Wikipedia.Lexi  14:51I mean, it is a huge part of culture that, kind of, changed the way that we, you know, talk about things.Ben  14:57Do you remember where the movie's set?Lexi  15:00They're all kind of set in the same...Ben  15:03Middle America. Lexi  15:04Yeah, like a Michigan kind of place.Ben  15:08Michigan is what I would guess. I have no idea. I can't remember any more. It's a very white cast, as well, which is interesting.Lexi  15:15Oh, yeah.Ben  15:16Yeah, what are some other egregious issues that we have with that one?Lexi  15:19Well, I don't like the way that Claire, so Molly Ringwald's character, she is berated, harassed by Bender the entire movie. He's got his head between her legs at one point, because he's hiding, and, at the end of the movie, she, like, goes and makes out with him and they become, like, boyfriend and girlfriend because he's wearing her earring and, like, you don't reward, like, a guy that treats you like trash, a person that treats you like trash. They're not gonna change. [laughs]Ben  15:51Yeah. I, 100%, remember it seeming, sort of, weird that that was, like, his reward for having some sort of character redemption is that Molly Ringwald will date him. And that's supposed to be character growth for her, is that she's not so stuck up anymore, she'll date somebody who's... poor and abusive?Lexi  16:07I guess? Or that, like, she's pushing back against her parents or... Like, I didn't really care for that part as much. Ben  16:18Yeah. Lexi  16:18But then, like, then you've got Claire and Allison, at one point, doing, like, makeovers and Allison's the kind of the quiet one who's the artist and the freak who's-- she's choosing to be at the detention instead of being sent there, and so Claire gives her the makeover and, all of a sudden, she's She's All That-ed. She's pretty, and now Emilio Estevez's character, Andrew, is, like, into her. If it wasn't for a lame... Before, he didn't see her, but as soon as Molly Ringwald puts some makeup on her, and pulled her hair back, well, now Allison's a person. I just thought like, "Ugh, that sends the wrong message."Ben  16:55Yeah.Lexi  16:56But, as a teenager, you're like, "Oh, that's how I get the attention of a boy."Ben  17:01Yeah, "I've gotta conform to beauty standards that are set out for me." Yeah, it's not great. It doesn't hold up. It feels wrong nowadays. I mean, it's really difficult to watch and think anything positive of it anymore.Lexi  17:14[laughs] The soundtrack was good. Ben  17:16Yeah, the soundtrack was good. Lexi  17:17But then John and I are having a conversation about that, and he's like, "Yeah, but at the time, that's what was a successful movie, and so, how fair is it for us to judge something from the past by today's standards?" Like, "Well, it's a difficult one. Like--"Ben  17:33Absolutely. Lexi  17:34I think we have to.Ben  17:36I mean, yeah, and also, like, what does that really mean, the idea of fair? Like, I mean, it feels sort of like the wrong question to apply to, sort of, reexamining past media. Like, you don't get a pass just because it was from the past.Lexi  17:54Yeah, there you go.Ben  17:55And the whole point of looking at something from the future is to reanalyze it from the scope that we have now. Like, you can do that and still acknowledge that, at the time, that general awareness of these sorts of things wasn't what it is now, but that's not really the point, I guess, is what I'm getting at.Lexi  18:12I can understand the criticism of like, yeah, you know, it's a questionable movie, but at the time, it was very progressive. And even now, like, I'm sure there are some TV shows, movies, books, whatever, that we think are pretty progressive that, in the future, people have problems with, but that's the point. Like, if we're all staying the exact same, that's the issue. Could we not be able to move forward, and then look back and be like, "Eugh. I shouldn't have done that"? Let's have a conversation about it.Ben  18:37I think the world and where it existed, and when it was made, is not where we are now. Like, that's not really the point. So Breakfast Club, like, none of these movies are really going to hold up to every standard that we have nowadays.Lexi  18:47No, it's impossible.Ben  18:48The bigger question is like, "Can I still enjoy this media the same way?" And you can't, especially... I mean, I don't think this movie, you can really... Like, I can watch it. I could enjoy parts of it, I suppose, but I don't know. I don't know if I really even would try to rewatch this movie. It used to come on TBS a lot, so we didn't have much of a choice, but...Lexi  19:10Yeah, I think now I would fast forward through a lot of it. Ben  19:14Yeah, I can't see myself going back to rewatch this, unlike a movie like "Footloose", which I still think is a fun watch. Same era, same sort of idea. There's a lot going on in that movie, too that's kind of effed up. Like, I think the main character, whose name I cannot remember, but it's Kevin Bacon, he moves to the small town where dancing and music is outlawed, and the girl that he falls for, her dad's abusive, her boyfriend's abusive, but I think, at one point, her boyfriend actually just punches her, and I'm just like, "Why would even?" Like, [sighs] in that sense, they're not trying to glorify that behavior necessarily, but it's... Yeah, so that's the interesting thing. Maybe that's what you gotta look at is the depiction of the thing in the movie something thing that they're doing as a "We're not thinking critically about this because that's the era we're from," or are they presenting it in that era, but they're saying, "This isn't a thing that should be happening," and that's a tough one. I can't remember that movie well enough. But I still like the dancin'.Lexi  20:17You like the dancin' part of it, hey?Ben  20:19Yep. Kevin Bacon, finally, in 2013, I think, admitted that he had a dance double for parts of that, but he did a lot of the dancing himself, he said.Lexi  20:28Did we not know that? I thought that that was widely accepted.Ben  20:32I don't know. It was just a thing I remember reading a while back, but yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like, that movie, I could rewatch again. I feel like it's worth going back for the dancing. I don't know what would bring me back to Breakfast Club, aside from the soundtrack, which I can just listen to on my own.Lexi  20:46Yeah, I would just listen to the s... Like, if it was on the TV.Ben  20:50I guess I like Emilio Estevez. I like Molly Ringwald. Like--Lexi  20:53Then watch "Mighty Ducks", Ben. Ben  20:55Yeah, and that's what I do. We're gonna have to do an episode on "The Mighty Ducks". I love "The Mighty Ducks: Game Changers" on Disney+. Lexi  21:02Oh, there you go. Yes. Ben  21:04Disney+ isn't sponsoring our show, but if they want to. [Lexi laughs] I like "Game Changers". It's a little weird. It's a little bit--Lexi  21:13I can't say that I've watched it, but, you know, I'll take a look-see.Ben  21:17Yeah. Oh, are we gonna do a "Dawson's Creek" episode or teen TV dramas of the 2000s? And those are-- a lot of those are trash but, like--Lexi  21:26Yes.Ben  21:26Yeah.Lexi  21:27I could talk about those, just "Smallville". Oh, my god. We need to talk about "Buffy". What are we doing, here?Ben  21:32That's an interesting one, like, 'cause, you know, 'cause you have to deal with the Joss Whedon. I call him Josh now. He lost his privilege at two "s"-es.Lexi  21:41You know, you strike an "s" off the name. Okay. We have to talk about Sixteen Candles, though, because it is the worst.Ben  21:50The worst. There is nothing--Lexi  21:53I think that a couple come close. Ben  21:55I could rewatch Breakfast Club, yeah. Like, I could re-watch Breakfast Club. There's a lot I don't like about it, and a lot that doesn't hold up, a lot of analysis of, sort of like, teen issues that doesn't really feel like it really got it, but I could rewatch it. I will not re-watch Sixteen Candles. I mean, give us a rundown. Give us the point-by-point. What's wrong with Sixteen Candles, aside from everything?Lexi  22:17If you've never watched Sixteen Candles before, don't. I will just run through it really quick. Basically, it's a party movie. Sam, play by Molly Ringwald, it's her birthday. It's her 16th birthday, but her entire family has basically forgotten, and she's really pissed off about the whole thing, so she's a real b-word all day at school. Meanwhile, she has this huge crush on this guy Jake Ryan who's, like, the quintessential hot dude of the school. Ben  22:42The perfect dude. Yeah.Lexi  22:44And, like, everyone of their little friend group is just like, "No, he's got such a hot girlfriend." They even show her showering naked in the girls' change room to really hammer home the fact that this lady is like a full-blown babe.Ben  22:59Wait. I do not remember this part of the movie. There's a naked scene of Molly Ringworld as a teenager?Lexi  23:06Yeah. Not Molly Ringwald. It was the girlfriend.Ben  23:08Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that. Lexi  23:10Molly Ringwald and her creepy friend... It's so creepy. They're leering and watching her shower because Molly Ringwald is comparing her chest to Jake Ryan's girlfriend to be like, "Oh, she's such a... She's a woman and I'm a girl. Why would he ever pay attention to me?" because boobs are the only thing that matter, apparently. Ben  23:10Mm.Lexi  23:30And then, meanwhile, so at the same time, Sam, Molly Ringwald, her grandparents come to her house, and they bring their foreign exchange student.Ben  23:41No. We can't even get into the foreign exchange student. It's so bad.Lexi  23:45It's so bad. I'm not even gonna. Like, you can go look it up. I'm not gonna say his name because it makes me feel uncomfortable, if I'm honest, but it's like a derogatory name that is just, like, it's just so offensive, and every time he's--Ben  23:58It's intended to mimic what white people make as sounds when they try to, you know, do Asian voices or language, and it's just a continuous shit show of racism.Lexi  24:12Oh, Ben, every time the character is on the screen, a gong sounds.Ben  24:15Yeah, I remember that part.Lexi  24:16Like, oh. [groans frustratedly] So then, Sam goes to the dance because she still has a thing for Jake, and she has to bring people with her, and now enter Michael C. Hall.Ben  24:17Oh, he's Ducky, right?Lexi  24:31And his creepy little character because... No, that's "Pretty In Pink". Come on. Jesus Christ, Lexi. Get your shit together.Ben  24:39Oh, god. I'm mixing up movies. Well, I'm sorry that all good John Hughes movies start to blend together after a while. [Lexi laughs] Sorry, I can't specify which Molly Ringwald film we're talking about. She wears the same thing in every movie, too.Lexi  24:51No. She... Ben  24:52She looks exactly the same.Lexi  24:53She... Well, yeah, that's good.Ben  24:54I'm pretty sure she's in a pink dress in every movie.Lexi  24:56Okay, I will accept that. Anthony Michael Hall's character is Ted, and they refer to him as "Farmer Ted" the entire movie, which I don't really understand why that's the thing.Ben  25:06Oh, he's the one that gets sent home with what's-her-face? Lexi  25:09Yes. Ben  25:10Right? When she's drunk, and he, basically...Lexi  25:11Yeah, right?Ben  25:13It's a date rape situation. How fun. Lexi  25:15Well, and first, like, he won't leave Sam alone at the dance. He keeps following her around, won't take no for an answer, and she basically has to barter with him to piss off by giving him her panties. So... And then he pretends that he like got them, however, and is cheered on by, like, a full bathroom full of dorks-- not our people-- but then this devolves into a party at Jake's house. Everybody kind of winds up at this Jake's house party, where Jake's girlfriend is drunk and kind of an asshole. He kicks them all out and gives Ted the keys to his car, and his passed-out girlfriend in the backseat, and long story short, he winds up making out with her when she comes to, eventually.Ben  25:59Yeah, I remember that.Lexi  26:00And, when she asks, "Did you take advantage of me?" and he said, "No,"  and she was like, "Cool." [laughs] Like, what?!Ben  26:08Wait. Don't they actually end up, like, doing it in that movie? And neither of them remember it, or am I thinking of another movie again?Lexi  26:15It could. You know what? Ben  26:16Remember that they, like--Lexi  26:17I haven't seen it in a while.Ben  26:18"I don't remember if we did it or not," and then they're both like, "Yeah, we did it," and it's like, that's supposed to be cool or something, and I'm like-- and, like, a virtuous moments where--Lexi  26:24That does sound about right. Ben  26:25Yeah, I remember throwing up. Like, I don't think that movie even sat well with me in the '90s when I was a teen, seeing it for the first time. I was like...Lexi  26:32[whispers] No.Ben  26:34"..eugh." Yeah,  Sixteen Candles is gross. What else? Is there anything else gross about  Sixteen Candles that we need to mention before we move on? Don't rewatch Sixteen Candles. It's no good.Lexi  26:42Don't. Well, it ends with Sam getting Jake and he gets her a birthday cake, and, you know, it's this beautiful moment between the two of them, but it's just like, she spent the entire movie comparing herself to other people, about how she was shit and not good enough for him, and he spends the entire movie pissed off at the world that he lives in because he's, like, this wealthy, white dude with a dumb girlfriend, and he's brutal to her. Like, he's really mean to his girlfriend, like, sends her off to be, like, you know, ravaged by some stranger.Ben  27:15Yeah. He sends her off to get raped. Lexi  27:17Yeah. And then it's like, "Okay, movie over." Ben  27:19Yeah, and I remember him also saying like, a bunch of really crass shit to her before, because she's drunk, and being like, "I could abuse you all I want if I wanted to. Yeah, it's super fucked-up and that's supposed to be a virtue for this guy--Lexi  27:31Yeah, he's the good one.Ben  27:32--that he looks down on her for being drunk.Lexi  27:34Oh.Ben  27:35Yeah. Fuckin' dumpster fire movie, and so this is why, like, people, you bring these up and they'll be like, "I fucking hate Ron Hughes." Yeah, Ron Hughes. I don't know who that is, but I hate him, too, just for sounding like John Hughes. [Lexi laughs] Fuck you, Ron.Lexi  27:50But, I think it's also like, the genre of, like, rom coms. Like, eugh. This is where it's kind of like stemmed from some of these teen movies . People think, "Like, this is maybe like the norm?" Like, "No, it isn't. This isn't good."Ben  28:04What's next on our on our shit shower?Lexi  28:07"Weird Science".Ben  28:09Are we doing "Pretty in Pink" at some point?Lexi  28:11"Pretty in Pink", technically, comes after "Weird Science". "Weird Science" was released in 1985.Ben  28:16Oh, we're doing these chronologically? Okay, my bad. Okay, "Weird Science" it is. So like, are we even gonna find teen... Like, John Hughes defined this era and defined what it meant to be a teen in this era, so I guess we may not get away from his movies. I mean, "Footloose" wasn't one of his, so that was good, but that's wild. It's basically just a John Hughes shit episode. Fuck you, John Hughes.Lexi  28:37But, no. I've got some redeeming ones.Ben  28:40And your brother, Ron. From John Hughes? I don't agree.Lexi  28:44I've got one. I got a couple that I'm gonna fight for, saying they're good.Ben  28:47What? Okay, you're gonna have to try real hard to make me like john Hughes in any capacity. "Weird Science", let's just get the premise out of the way. These two losers decide that they're going to robo-code their-- I'm just gonna use fake science words 'cause that's what they do in this movie-- they're gonna robo-code their digi-ideal woman and build her to be perfect and subservient to them. The whole premise is fucked up and weird and gross, and then, through the magic of--Lexi  29:11Yeah, the magic of science.Ben  29:12--science, I don't know, this woman comes true. She's there. Suddenly, they built her, and they can do anything they want with their new robo-girl or whatever. [Lexi sighs] Lexi  29:24And... [groans].Ben  29:25The only thing that's redeeming is a nice title song written by Oingo Boingo, the new-wave band from the '80s.Lexi  29:32Ah, Oingo Boingo. Yep. I know that it was this whole, you know, the dorks or the geeks strike back where like Revenge of the Nerds and that was also another popular problematic movie of the era, of just, like, dorks who aren't... You know, it's basically like  these, the nice guys, the incels.Ben  29:52Incels.Lexi  29:53They can't get-- no girls will pay attention to them 'cause they're not popular jocks. Wah, wah, wah. So what we're gonna do--Ben  29:59No, this is great. I like this line we're riding. I like this. This is, we are what's-his-face from It's Always Sunny.Lexi  30:07Dennis?Ben  30:08No. Not Dennis. We're not Dennis. Nobody's Dennis. Dennis is a sociopath. Lexi  30:11I was gonna say.Ben  30:12Ferris Bueller is Dennis. Lexi  30:13He's a serial killer. Ben  30:15Well, that's--Lexi  30:16Mac?Ben  30:16No, not Mac. Goddamn. Charlie.Lexi  30:18Charlie?Ben  30:19We're Charlie at the wall with the line, and we have just gone from John Hughes movies to the nice-guy phenomenon, and then straight on past that to the incel, the current incel disgusting thing that we have going on. Lexi  30:35Well, all of like...Ben  30:36It's all Ron and John Hughes' fault.Lexi  30:39Anthony Michael Hall basically played an incel [chuckling] for, like, his entire teenage youth--Ben  30:46God.Lexi  30:46--of the best friend who's just waiting around. "When's it gonna be his turn, gosh darn it?" because that's what it takes.Ben  30:52Yeah, and if I put in enough, you know, "nice coins" into the Woman Gashapon I will get the sex prize in the little ball. Lexi  31:00Exactly. Ben  31:01Yeah, I mean, fuck, as a white male, this is the kind of shit that I was taught, too. Like, I had some very strong, and I mean that as in of character, women, who... I mean, I could have been a very shitty person if I didn't have people that were better than me that helped me learn to be better. That should have been the responsibility but, like, "Thanks for being in my life to help me not end up like these fuckers." 'Cause I didn't get that from, like, my upbringing and, like, watching this kind of bullshit, or from, like, my religious upbringing. You definitely were taught that, like, the idea was that you put those wonderful little friendship points in, and eventually, you're gonna get what you want back out of it, which is not a relationship with another human being. It's vagina. Lexi  31:46Yeah, they just, the pure physical nature of it. But then, if we can move on to Pretty In Pink, which I think Ducky is the worst character for that, is the most blatant character for that. I mean, like, he's--Ben  32:01Oh, yeah. He's nice guy.Lexi  32:02[groans] He is so horrible, such a, like, you know, kickin' rocks and, "Aw, gee, when's it gonna be my time? Nobody loves you like I love you," like, gaslighting Molly Ringwald's character.Ben  32:15Unrequited love sort of thing is supposed to be, like, romantic, as opposed to creepy.Lexi  32:20Well, and speaking of creepy, then James Spader's creep-ass character is even worse because he's the king gaslighter of pretending to absolutely hate Molly Ringwald's character, Andie, but then, secretly is like trying to get with her and like, "Yeah, there it is. There's the douchebag," and I did know guys like that in high school that would pretend, "Oh, we don't talk when we're at school, but then I'll message you on MSN later tonight."Ben  32:48Yeah, I mean, this this is where I get ranty because this leads me into one of my hot topics and also not a sponsor of the show. [Lexi laughs] Wish they were. Do they still exist?Lexi  33:01Yeah, they do. There's one at Market Mall.Ben  33:04Yeah, you can get, like, records from them, and film. They're the only place that sell record players and film anymore. Lexi  33:09[laughing] Yep. Ben  33:10But this is one of, like, things that gets me kind of passionate is that, when this kind of subject comes up, men get mad at people pointing it out, white males specifically get mad at people pointing out that, like, this was sort of the culture that we were steeped in, what we were built to be like. I feel like men should be super fucking angry that this is what society tried to turn us into, did turn us into. Like, but instead, we double down on this shit. We get mad. We try to defend it. We try to defend that like "culture", but like, we should be fucking pissed all the time about what society, what our society, patriarchal and you know, colonial as it is, like, what it tried, and tries, and continues to try to turn white men into. Like, but dudes just don't get pissed at that. For some reason, they just can't. They can't find that, and it makes me mad on a daily basis. I see myself as, sort of like, this robot that was built by, you know, these fucking people to do this thing, and it makes me mad every day that I almost didn't have a fair shot at being like a normal-ish human being that could treat people with empathy and kindness because of this kind of media, of this kind of culture, this pervasiveness, and yeah, fuck it. It just gets me that other dudes, you know, aren't just constantly pissed off about this.Lexi  34:27Well, when you talk about, like, systemic racism, and lots of people are like, "There's no such thing ," which is bullshit--Ben  34:32Yes. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-b-b-bullshit. Sorry. I hadn't gotten one of those in in a few episodes.Lexi  34:36That's all good. We've gotta have one of those per episode. I feel like these, like, not necessarily these ones but movies like these, this is a part of it, of just like keeping everybody in their place, and telling everybody what role. "You sit on that chair over there. You wear that type of T-shirt." Like, this is-- and even like looking at the '90s movies, it's just as bad because now we have like--Ben  34:59Oh no. Yeah, definitely.Lexi  35:00It's just as bad, and even now, I was thinking like, "What are the current teen movies?" They're not that different, really.Ben  35:08I don't really know. Well, no, 'cause I guess it's still the same machine, and the same systemic system. [laughs] The same systemic system that's still turning this shit out. It hasn't-- like, the decision makers, the money and stuff, are all of a certain, I don't know, persuasion, ilk, build, and so that hasn't changed, so why would the content change? You know, there might be veneers put on things from people at certain parts of the process, but the assembly line is still largely the same and has the same intent. The blueprints haven't changed.Lexi  35:41You know--Ben  35:42Have I mixed my metaphor enough?Lexi  35:45You got a little... They're good. Ben  35:46Yeah. Lexi  35:47Like, just so thinking of the other podcast, "Art Intervention", there was one episode where I found out a lot of research about why the art industry, especially, like, art galleries, and museums, are so white, and one article I found was talking about, they're super white because those types of institutions, typically, they don't have a lot of government support. They don't have any, like, you know, public money coming in that's really keeping the lights on, so you really have to rely on the private sector for donations, and, unfortunately, a lot of the wealthy patrons for a lot of these big, big institutions are, largely, white patrons, and they don't wanna feel uncomfortable, and they don't wanna feel like--Ben  36:38No. It always comes with strings.Lexi  36:40It's always coming with strings, and so they don't want you to be bringing in an artist who is calling out the white patriarchy of the art society. They want someone who's gonna like, you know, ruffle a little feathers, but not be too, you know, radical, and so it's creating this industry that is perpetually keeping people in their place and keeping the dialogue moving along, and I think, like, some institutions are getting a little bit better, but it is a huge problem in the arts, and a lot of times people are like, "Oh, but the arts are... You know there's so many black actors that are very famous," and there's'--Ben  37:19What does that even mean? Lexi  37:21Exactly. Like, it's still an industry and it still has a lot of problems, and I think we're just scratching the surface on the whole like #MeToo" Harvey Weinstein thing, and even the fact that, like, #MeToo was appropriated from a black woman who had been talking about it for years, and all it took was, like, a couple white actresses to be like, "Yeah, I've had similar experiences," and pfff, it blows up. Ben  37:44Yeah. What was that shitty joke, where, like, the white dude is like, "Oh, if I was in charge of equality, you know, we wouldn't need feminism anymore," or something. Or like, "If I was in charge of feminism, we'd all have equality by now," something like that.Lexi  38:03That's a great joke.Ben  38:04The idea is that the joke is in the idea of this guy saying that he could fix a problem that he is the creator of, or part of the system. [Lexi laughs] There's the joke. You're supposed to laugh at the premise of the guy.Lexi  38:17It's so sad, though. Like, "Yeah. There it is."Ben  38:21[Lexi laughs] Speaking of sociopathic white males, let's hit Ferris Bueller. [along with dancehall airhorn] B-B-B-Bueller. Lexi  38:28[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh, yeah. Bom-bom. Chik-a-chik-a!Ben  38:31I mean... [along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Oh yeah. Bom-bom. So that basically--Lexi  38:36[along with Yello's song, "Oh Yeah"] Bom. Oh.Ben  38:38That's enough right there. Really, like Ferris Bueller is a sociopath. He manipulates everyone. He can't empathize with other people's feelings. He manipulates his friends into doing things because he thinks it's for their own good. Like, he gets to decide what's best for Cameron. He gets to decide how Cameron deals with his emotionally-abusive parents or like, "Oh, steal the car." Eugh, but, like, Ferris Bueller is just a smug piece of shit, and, you know, Matthew Broderick, I like you enough, but you're much better in Godzilla 2000. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  39:06I think the real hero of that movie is Jennifer Grey's character, Jeanie Bueller. Jeanie is the true-- 'cause she's the only one that sees him other than Ed Rooney, Jeffrey Jones. She's the only one that sees him for his bullshit, but she sees it, more or less, like a sister just wanting to rub her brother's face and like, "You're not all that. How about that, kid?" Like, it's more she just wants to prove him wrong, not ruin his life, like Ed Rooney, but she's trying so hard the entire movie to get people to, like, see through his bullshit, and I always felt really bad for her because I was like, "Yeah, he shouldn't be doing all those things." [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  39:49Yeah, he's a terrible character. Yeah, that movie. You know, you've got Ben Stein in there as well, and he hasn't held out well. He's aged poorly, as far as he--Lexi  39:51Has he?Ben  39:52His movies are pretty, pretty shitty. He's a pretty smug asshole most of the time and very-- [Lexi sighs]Lexi  40:11Well, I mean, same with Jeffrey Jones, hey? [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Ben  40:14Oh yes, I know what happened to him. We don't need to discuss that. That's just such a--Lexi  40:17 Yeah, that's--Ben  40:18A disgusting human being, so we're better off--Lexi  40:20There's a couple, like, Charlie Sheen, like that's--Ben  40:23Who, Charlie Sheen was in that?Lexi  40:25Yeah, he's the creepy dude that's hitting on Jeanie in the police station when he's like, "Why do you care so much about what your brother does?"Ben  40:32Oh man, now I remember that.Lexi  40:33He's the one that kind of like helps her, right?Ben  40:35Yeah, yeah. [Yello song "Oh Yeah" continues]Lexi  40:40Controversy comes from us all, Ben.Ben  40:41"Just be more like Charlie Sheen," is a thing that nobody should say. [laughs]Lexi  40:44No. Be more like Jennifer Grey is what I think.Ben  40:49Like, the actor or the character?Lexi  40:53Eh, the character in this one.Ben  40:53I don't know anything about the actor.Lexi  40:56Neither do I. I hope that she's not... I hope that no one is, like, actually.Ben  41:01Do we have anything that can bring us back? Like, we need some redeemable teen movies. I had a little bit of being like Footloose could be fun still. Are there ones we can watch? I've got one more that I sort of like.Lexi  41:11Oh, I've got one I love. Ben  41:12I'll do mine. You're more passionate. I'll do mine first. It's called... [laughing] Oh, god now I'm blanking on the name. Lexi  41:20Uh-oh. [laughs]Ben  41:21It's with Christian Slater, and he is a, like, pirate radio host. Pump Up the Volume. Lexi  41:28Okay.Ben  41:28So, there's some stuff that doesn't do it for me, which is sort of that, like, white suburban kid ennui that you see in, like, the '90s. It's technically a 1990 movie, but it was produced... That's when it was released, so it was produced in the '80s. So it's got a lot of that, sort of like, white teen ennui that we see in the '90s a lot with, like, the navel gazing and, like, "Let's just, you know, not worry about anything except our white privilege problems." So there's a little bit of that, but there's also a lot of like, sort of challenging the way that kids' problems are sort of downplayed by adults, or like, they're tried to be brushed aside when, like, you know, kids are actually suffering with problems. One of the things is a student kills himself and, like, that's sort of an impetus for the main characters to sort of go on and speak out about what's happening and tell the other students not to be quiet and to, like, live their, like... "Talk hard," is his line in the movie. Talk hard and, like, say the things that are a problem for you, and not hold them back, so I feel like I could rewatch that one again. I feel like it probably is watchable. He gets arrested at the end for his pirate radio, which is just such a great idea, a pirate radio, broadcasting illegally on the FM channel. Fuck, can you do that? I wanna broadcast illegally on an FM channel.Lexi  42:52I think it is something that's elite. Like, you have to be allowed to do it.Ben  42:56Yeah, I mean, I just don't even know anybody who'd be interested. Why do that when you can make a podcast? [both laugh] Yeah, I guess, you know, somebody would still have to tune to your pirate radio frequency, so... [chuckles]Lexi  43:11They'd find you.Ben  43:12Yeah. So the villain of the movie or whatever, is like the FCC comes to find Christian Slater's character and shut down his pirate radio.Lexi  43:21The FCC won't let him be.Ben  43:23Yeah, the FCC won't let him be. [laughs] Lexi  43:26Thank you. Thank you for that.Ben  43:27You're welcome. Thank you. I don't know what you're thinking me. You did it. That's great.Lexi  43:31I always like a good laugh, Ben. You know? Ben  43:33Yeah. I think yeah, give Pump Up the Volume a watch if you haven't. I haven't watched it in a while. I should re-watch it, but let us know if I'm wrong about that, and if it's a total trash fire, as well.Lexi  43:44I'm going to end this with a bang, Ben, because I'm gonna explain to you the greatest coming-of-age movie of the John Hughes-era is Uncle Buck.Ben  43:48Okay, so here's my thing with Uncle Buck. Is it a teen movie, though? Lexi  43:58Yes.Ben  43:59You think?Lexi  44:00I think so. I watched it all-- I watched it with my mom, and then I watched it with my friends when I was, like, 15, and I've watched it many times since because, I don't know. It was about, like, to me, it was about connecting with an adult in your life.Ben  44:16That's interesting. I appreciate that take. I guess I just find, like, the centering of John Candy as the main role in that, sort of, takes it away from being a teen movie for me.Lexi  44:24But that's why I think it's key because teenagers are so stuck in their own bubble, that it's hard to see your angst when you're living in it, and I think that was the reason my mom made me watch it.Ben  44:35Oh, interesting. So you were saying, like, the point-of-view character being the adult but having the show and the content geared at a teen gives you some outside of your own situation-ness, some self-awareness.Lexi  44:47Yeah.Lexi  44:48'Cause, see, like his... Oh, gosh, the... bup, bup, bup... Tia, so Tia is 15 and she's the oldest of the three kids and she's like, if you've never seen the movie, she's a cow. Like, the entire movie, she's just being an asshole for no purpose.Ben  44:48Interesting.Ben  45:06No, I've seen it a number of times.Lexi  45:09I watch it every Christmas. That is my Home Alone. Ben  45:11It's been a while, though.Lexi  45:13And it's just because she's so brutal, and then John Candy's character comes in and, you know, she's got a couple of lines that she says that are just horrible, so, so mean and callous, and then, she treats her family like garbage. She winds up shacking up with a dude who's trying to take advantage of her, and I think that this is really key, and a lot of people should watch it that if you are a 15, 16, 17 year old, and you are dating someone who is older than you, it is not an equal relationship. I'm sorry. It just isn't. And that's something that, like, when I was a teenager, I was like, "I can take care of myself," and so many times, like, yeah, to a point and then you pass a line, and then it gets real tricky, and what I like about that is, even though she treated people poorly, like, John Candy came to her rescue and supported her, and helped her to take her power back from this douchebag who tried to hurt her.Ben  46:12Right. So, in a typical John Hughes movie, we'd see her get a come-uppance of some sort of degradation or sexual assault as, sort of, the character arc. Like, "Oh, that'll teach you to be a b-word, though. You got what was coming to you. Haha." But that doesn't happen in this film. Interesting.Lexi  46:29Well, it kinda... Like, it almost does. Like, her boyfriend tries to pressure her into having sex. She's not ready so she leaves the party, and he does, like, make fun of her, and then, John Candy comes and finds her walking away from the party and, you know, she's embarrassed and whatever, and then he basically kidnaps the boyfriend in the back of the car, and then they hit golf balls at him to really, like... [laughs]Ben  46:53Sounds good to me. I'm fine with that.Lexi  46:56I don't know. Like, it's still you're right. Like, she's still like, there's that, like, "Haha, you were almost, like, you know, taken advantage of."Ben  47:02"That will show you."Lexi  47:02"That's what you get for being a little bag," but I just feel like, of those movies, this is probably the one that has, like, aged the best because even John Candy's character is so flawed. Ben  47:15Yeah, yeah.Lexi  47:16And it shows, like, all these redeeming qualities about him.Ben  47:18Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a good synopsis to me. I'd rewatch that. I'll give it a shot. And you all should give that a shot too, see what you think, see if there's some aspects of that film that we forgot that maybe cause it to bump off a little bit, although it sounds like Lexi watches it pretty regularly, so she knows what's up.Lexi  47:38I'm gonna be really sad if someone out there is like, "But, did you forget about the scene?" Because probably.Ben  47:43Maybe, but you know, that's just an opportunity. Yeah, this is an opportunity to appreciate what happened there, and, you know, that doesn't mean you have to stop watching Uncle Buck. It just means we have to somehow create a 15-minute episode addendum to this that people are forced to listen to that, "Okay, so there's this part in the movie and we have to talk about it where things go blah blah, blah." Yeah, I have to imagine that we'll end up doing a lot of retraction or correction episodes. Maybe that should be just a fun off-week thing we do. We do, you know, corrections and just 15-minute episodes every other week when we're not on our regular schedule. "So here's some shit we got wrong last week," and we just list it.Lexi  48:27Yeah. Just, "Sorry about this. Sorry about the following things."Ben  48:30"Said this. Didn't mean to."Lexi  48:32Ben, we haven't done Who's That Pokémon? yet.Ben  48:35Oh, fuck. Let's do Who's That  Pokémon? here. I think we've got another little ways to go. We should do a wrap up, but let's do a Who's That  Pokémon? Is it your turn again to come up with the Pokémon?Lexi  48:46Well, I've done many. I'm happy to keep explaining wet bags of sand to you, but do you wanna take a crack at Who's That  Pokémon?Ben  48:52I didn't come up with one, so it'll be on the fly. Yeah.Lexi  48:54Oh, do it.Ben  48:54I'll do it unless you have one prepared. Lexi  48:56No, no, no. Ben  48:57Okay. Okay, [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? and I will describe now the Pokémon with which you need to guess. Lexi  49:06Excellent. Ben  49:07It's sort of like a pitcher.Lexi  49:09Okay.Ben  49:11Imagine an upside-down... No, right-way-up, like a pitcher as in, like, a vase. Not a--Lexi  49:18Okay, like, like a pitcher of lemonade. Ben  49:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then there's, like, some sort of leaves coming off, leaf-shaped protrusions, one on each side of this pitcher.Lexi  49:30Oh, my god.Ben  49:30And then there's also some sort of circular balls atop the pitcher.Lexi  49:35Are you explaining an actual Pokémon to me or is this like a...?Ben  49:38Yeah, yeah.Lexi  49:39It's an actual Pokémon! Oh, I thought we were being cheeky here and--Ben  49:43No. It's time for us to break out our--Lexi  49:45Anthony Michael Hall. [Ben laughs]Ben  49:47Oh shit. That's not bad. Lexi  49:48Oh, I gotta remember.Ben  49:49I'll change it. It's no longer Victreebel. It's Anthony Michael Hall. You got it. [Lexi laughs] [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? [Lexi laughs]Lexi  49:59It's Anthony Michael Hall. Ben  50:00I'm gonna Google you a picture. [scratching record, DJ-style]Lexi  50:03Oh, Victreebel. Ben  50:04Yes. It was a real Pokémon.Lexi  50:05Damn it.Ben  50:06I think if I ever do them, they'll probably be real Pokémon.Lexi  50:09We still have to do a Pokémon episode.Ben  50:11It'd be interesting to talk to Mr. Hall and ask him how he feels about his part in the rise of incels.Lexi  50:18I'm sure he probably doesn't see it that way. [laughs]Ben  50:21I don't think many people do, as a child actor. I'm sure there's a lot more going on. I am being glib for the sake of humor.Lexi  50:27Hey, Ben, he had a redeeming role in Edward Scissorhands, where he dies.Ben  50:31He had a lot of good TV roles.Lexi  50:34Yeah, he has. He's had a very big career.Ben  50:37Mm-hmm. This is now the Anthony Michael Hall podcast, where we just talk about--Lexi  50:42Dissect him.Ben  50:43--the different works of Anthony Mic-- Michael Hall. I can't say his name anymore. It's lost all meaning.Lexi  50:50AMH.Ben  50:51AMH. He's been active as an actor since 1977. Is that something you knew? Lexi  50:56Wow. No, That's, that's...Ben  50:58He's 53 years old. He was born in 1968, April 14th, in West Roxbury, Massachusetts. Can we stop and talk about Massachusetts for a second? And how difficult a fucking place that is to say?Lexi  51:10Yes. I have such a hard time with it, I'd rather just be like, "That place," or write it down and point to it because I feel like I can't say it appropriately.Ben  51:17Yeah, and I'm not gonna make fun of the name 'cause I don't know its origins, etymology or anything, and I don't want to step on something, but, like, just saying, "Mass-a-chu-setts", like I've always said, "Massachusiss", or whatever, as a kid. I've always said it wrong, and then I was in New York, and I said, "Massachusiss", and somebody said, "What the fuck is wrong with you?"Lexi  51:35"Mass-a-chu--"Ben  51:35"Mass-a-chu-setts". Lexi  51:37"Mass-a-chu-setts". Ben  51:38Okay, yeah. It sounds wrong. Just say it-- okay, everybody at home listening, say "Mass-a-chu-setts"  about five times, maybe 10 times in a row, and see if you still like yourself.Lexi  51:49That's a tough homework assignment. [chuckles]Ben  51:52Yeah, enjoy. What else do we need to know about M-- Michael Anthony Hall? That's it. I'm good. Let's move on. [along with "Who's That Pokémon" theme music] Who's that Pokémon? We're back. We're back into the regular show, no longer the--Lexi  52:07AMH.Ben  52:08Anthony Michael Hall hour, the AMH hour. Is there anything else we should hit here on the way out? Lexi  52:15I mean--Ben  52:15Like, he produced or something Beethoven, so that's interesting.Lexi  52:18He also did Home Alone, which is a beloved movie.Ben  52:22Produced, yeah. He didn't--Lexi  52:23Oh, I thought... Okay.Ben  52:24But still.Lexi  52:25That's good to know.Ben  52:25He produced Miracle on 34th Street, which, you know, I've always enjoyed.Lexi  52:29He did Mall Rats, which again, like, is a very big movie [Ben groans] that I think a lot of people are like, "That's a cultural icon," but, like, it's also a very, like...Ben  52:39It is. Yeah, it's not a good flick. It does not hold up, and it is one of those ones that, like, yeah, as a rite of passage as a 14 year old, at least around our neck of the woods, you definitely watched, and thought was the greatest thing that ever happened. "Oh, shit pretzels." [Lexi groans] "Ha, ha, ha, ha. In the back of a Volkswagen." Lexi  52:59It's just...Ben  53:00Yeah.Lexi  53:00I feel like it's a really weird mix of, like, heartwarming children's movies and then, like, really problematic teen raunchy comedies.Ben  53:10Yeah.Lexi  53:10Like, well, it's an interesting mix you got there, pal. Ben  53:13Yeah. It's a wild time at Ridgemont High, which is movie I would have-- we should have talked about, but we didn't get to. That's fine, and I don't really remember enough about it except one of the Penn is in it. I think it's Sean Penn who was problematic, as well.Lexi  53:28Yeah. It's Sean Penn. Yeah.Ben  53:30Yeah, yeah.Lexi  53:31Oof. There's... We could... There's a lot of other very problematic teen movies. I mean, like, we've got the whole '90s to stare down. Ben  53:40Yeah.Lexi  53:41She's All That.Ben  53:42I mean, you know, those are movies that I definitely... Can't Hardly Wait. Lexi  53:46[groaning] Oh, I used to love that movie. Ben  53:50Of course you did. We all thought it was great. Lexi  53:51And I watched it recently. Oh, god.Ben  53:54No, I know. There's not a single aspect of that movie that I think holds up.Lexi  53:58Oh, you mean Seth Green's character isn't a redeeming figure throughout history?Ben  54:03It is an absolute travesty that that was allowed to become a thing. Lexi  54:08[whispers] Oh, my gosh.Ben  54:09That... yeah. The racism in that character alone in that, like, sort of characterization that we saw a lot of in the '90s and early 2000s is just wild. Lexi  54:19[softly] I know.Ben  54:19Just wild that that stuff had no critical second thought. Like, I know, we talk about, like, history and culture as these eras, and, like, we didn't have this sort of cultural awareness of these things at the time and, like, it's true, but also like, "So fucking what?" Like, that doesn't--Lexi  54:36Doesn't make it okay.Ben  54:37I just can't see that as an excuse. Yeah. Can't see it as an excuse.Lexi  54:43"Can't Hardly Use it As An Excuse?Ben  54:45[laughs] Yeah, Can't Hardly Wait to use it as an excuse. Like, I just can't use that as a way to be like, "Ah, I can still watch this film and not think of it critically," which I guess nobody's really asking anyone to do. Lexi  54:55But then it, like--Ben  54:56Problematic media is a whole other topic.Lexi  54:58It is, because it does beg the question of, "Do we look at the art versus the artist?" because then, like, we're leading into that era, and even, like, there's a little controversy this week with the old Margaret Atwood and her comments. Ben  55:11Oh, God. Lexi  55:13And I'm not gonna say that "I told you so, world," but I did say that Margaret Atwood isn't a great... I mean...Ben  55:20Well, I mean, she started to swing problematic for a while now. But like, this is also the advent of, sort of like, internet as well, is like, we did not have the information earlier on to know her thoughts on subjects that, you know, were outside of what she'd write about in her books, and maybe more intelligent people than myself picked up more of, like, her problems. I read her books, the ones that I enjoyed, which were like the MaddAddam trilogy, when I was in my early 20s. I don't consider that I was even like a proper adult human with critical thought until I was 25, so like, I still miss stuff all the time, and yeah, that's interesting. Margaret Atwood though. Way to hold my beer, JK Rowling. Jesus.Lexi  56:03Yeah, I did make a couple jokes of like, "Oh, she's really J.K.-ing herself this week." Like, just, if anyone has ever... Like, here's my piece of advice. Just stop. Just don't. Just don't. Like, and, a lot of times, don't weigh in. This is not a place for, "Oh, you know what I think about this?" Nothing. You think nothing about it. Shut up.Ben  56:23Oh, no, trust me that's a lesson I learned as a white dude on the internet that's like, more or less cishet, like, you know, maybe I don't need to offer an opinion on this. There's gonna be a lot of other takes, and I could probably do the most for myself by just reading how this goes out, and if I have questions about things, do some fucking Googling and try to understand these points that I'm having trouble with, and...Lexi  56:48Well, this has been a depressing and sad episode about our failed teenage years of just disappointing racism and sexism. [laughs]Ben  56:58Yeah. Well, you know, and again, this goes back to my really good analogy about, like, conveyor belts and machines or whatever. Like, we haven't fixed the problems with the blueprints and the machinery that's making this shit, so why would we expect it to be different? A different outcome just because, now we're aware that, you know, the shit shouldn't be happening, but apparently, we haven't taken the right action yet to correct where that's coming from, and so that stuff still comes.Lexi  57:29Well, maybe in another couple of decades we'll look at it a little closer. Ben  57:33We'll see. We'll see.Lexi  57:34The rom coms of the future are gonna be more uplifting and diverse and positive.Ben  57:38Okay, well, rom coms are a whole 'nother thing we need to get into 'cause Nora Ephron.Lexi  57:42Teenage.Ben  57:44Nora Ephron, I'm coming for you.Lexi  57:46I don't even wanna talk about rom coms because I don't think that I could say anything other than, "Bleuch."Ben  57:51We broached the subject. I mean, we kind of came into the teen movies thing with the intention of having some positivity to balance it out, [Lexi laughs] but it's hard when you have about 15 to 20 years, dominated by one figure, who has a way of looking at the world that's pretty shitty, and made all the, like, pop culture in that time.Lexi  58:10This is why you need a diverse group of people making content so that you have a wider array of things to look at to form your identity, because, when you're growing up, and the only teen flicks that are out the

"Reality is created by the mind, we can change our reality by changing our mind." - Plato In this episode, I discuss the Pandora Papers, the Facebook debacle, the government's DARPA project "Lifelog", and the occult origins of the internet. I hope you enjoy!  Please don't forget to shoot us a comment, rating, and follow us on social media! Check out our website at www.thejuanonjuanpodcast.com IG: @thejuanonjuanpodcast TIKTOK: @thejuanonjuanpodcast YT: "The Juan on Juan Podcast" Stake your Cardano with us at FIGHT POOL at fightpool.io! Thank you for tuning in! 00:00:13Welcome back. 00:00:44One of the episodes of 101 podcast on your house is always Juan and today I'm going at it alone. 00:00:51Been a minute since I did so episode. 00:00:56Make sure to follow me on social media at the 101. Podcast on all social media platforms. Well, just Instagram Tik-Tok YouTube. 00:01:07Ww.w the 101 podcast. Com. 00:01:11Make sure to get your merch on there. 00:01:14Stick your car down with us at fight pool. IO. 00:01:19make sure you get into cryptocurrency, but 00:01:24The day I did. I did research all day today. 00:01:29And I want to talk about a little bit. 00:01:34I'm all over the place right now, but I wanted to get into what's happening right now and 00:01:42When something new breaks out that people are freaking out about it saying, oh, wow, you know, this is crazy. For example. 00:01:51Butts in the whole tax-the-rich narrative. 00:01:56And we just had. What did we just have the Pandora papers, right? 00:02:00Something that 00:02:02we all knew, we all know this. We all know that the 00:02:08Wealthy Elites. 00:02:12The wealthy Elites, they all do, this. Should they wrote the system? 00:02:17So when things like this come out and don't get me wrong. I don't believe that every single thing. That happens is a conspiracy. 00:02:26But when you see the sort of things happen, you just go, okay. 00:02:32It's too convenient. 00:02:35What are the actually hiding? 00:02:37What are they actually trying to cover up because that's all it is. 00:02:43And we're in a point in history where, and since the very beginning. 00:02:50Information is everything especially. 00:02:55Especially now where we give so much power to these companies. I stop using Google. 00:03:04because, 00:03:07And I talked about this before, were part of the system. Are we are somewhat lizards cuz we're part of the system or a cog and, and in the whole system regardless of the fact because we're forced to be in that system. We're forced to be in what in Plato's Cave. 00:03:28Right. 00:03:30And we're forced to watch. 00:03:33The Shadows on the wall. 00:03:35And accept that as the truth, except that as end-all-be-all. Whatever is fed to us day after day and then we try to break free from that when you break free from the chains and you go outside of the cave. 00:03:52And you see that there's another world out there and that the Shadows you were seeing. 00:04:00Isn't the real thing you go in to liberate your people. 00:04:04Per se. 00:04:07You're met with some sort of opposing Force, which is exactly what is happening right now. 00:04:15With all the narratives. 00:04:17and, 00:04:19Honestly, I'm at the point in my life where I don't believe. 00:04:23Any. 00:04:25Information that comes out statistics, whatever all. Well these people are meant to report. The good numbers know. It's all different sides of the same coin and we worship these politicians in these people, these false idols and I'm not religious finding means, but the Bible, does it say not to worship false idols. 00:04:53I was going to be carried and 00:04:57Propped, upright, which if you really think about it, this entire system is being propped up. 00:05:03People. 00:05:04Literally kill for their. 00:05:08Political beliefs. 00:05:10and, 00:05:13This ideology that. 00:05:18Of, I Love The Narrative of we need to strip away your freedoms to make you feel safe. 00:05:28There is a psychological effect behind that. 00:05:33where, 00:05:34Okay, let's sacrifice freedom. 00:05:38In order to be safe for the for the greater good, right? For the greater good. 00:05:44and you got to be careful when it comes out because 00:05:47As I always tell people that don't like to. 00:05:50Read history and look into it. 00:05:54Listen, this is the game that they play. 00:05:58and, 00:06:00It's the same cycle. No problem reaction solution brought back every single time. And if you don't, if you don't keep up with it with the stories, his story history doesn't often, it doesn't always repeat but often rhymes. 00:06:18and this week this past week was the Pandora papers that before, that was the Panama papers before, that was another set of 00:06:29It's a distraction on what's truly going on. 00:06:32What I personally feels going on is out there. I think I think our Kelly is talking. I think R.Kelly is naming names. Just, like, when the whole Epstein thing, came out what happened right after that and everybody forgot about it. Why? Because they wanted to this fight or flight? 00:06:56Mentality this fight or flight or I got to, we got to, we got to, there's something dangerous, that one episode. I did the last so episode, I did. 00:07:08Was covid-19 the new religion. 00:07:14There's a quote right now going on. 00:07:17Between you know, who I'm talking about. And I don't want to say because the tech overlords the lizards over at the at the YouTube headquarters, Google headquarters, you know, they're running not a u. I 00:07:31To scan for things and sensor people. And 00:07:35Maybe we are headed to some George, Orwell dystopian future. But even George Orwell didn't fucking believe in capitalism. He was a, he was a socialist. He wanted he preferred the government takeover and again, for what, for the greater. Good are. We're here to protect you. 00:07:53Was the show that Ronald Ronald Reagan said that? 00:07:58The nine most dangerous words. 00:08:01But shit like that. 00:08:03Does flies over people's heads. They completely again, why? Cuz you're not paying attention to the history. They're not paying attention to the books. So long. Why does it matter? 00:08:13It was talk about Nazi Germany in the way that that Hitler control the masses while he wasn't the only one you had stalling you had now you had all these other guys. 00:08:23Before him. And after him, that did essentially the same thing. 00:08:30And they go, they go ignored. 00:08:33It seems like you don't care. 00:08:37So the Pandora papers. 00:08:42We can start with. 00:08:44And I love that they need to Pandora, so I can listen Pandora. Where does Pandora Pandora's Box? Come from Greek? Mythology, Pandora. The first woman on Earth. 00:08:59Pandora was according to the myth, the first woman on earth. She was created by the Gods. 00:09:05Each one of them gave him gave her a gift. That's her name in. Greek means the one who Bears all gifts. 00:09:13Pandora was created as a punishment to the mankind. 00:09:19Zeus wanted to punish people because Prometheus stole the fire and gave it to the people. 00:09:27Right. He said, you can do whatever it is that you want with. The people. Just don't give them fire. 00:09:37Don't give him that. 00:09:39But he did when he was punished. 00:09:42Fraternity, until Hercules. 00:09:46Set him free. We had an eagle. I believe it was an eagle was to eat his liver or something like that over and over. At the end of every day would regenerate and he had this massive Eagle. He was just in Chains title to some some rocks and pillar. 00:10:04And so Zeus wanted to punish people because of that, right? It's the Greek story of creation, essentially. 00:10:12So Pandora was given a box where jar. 00:10:17Call pitsos in Greek. 00:10:20And the gods told her that the box contains special gifts from them, but she was not allowed to open the box ever. 00:10:29They say that she was created with the Curiosity. 00:10:35But at the end, she could not hold herself anymore. She open the box and all the illnesses, and hardships that got hit in the Box. Are you coming out? Pandora was scared? 00:10:45Cuz she saw all the evil spirits coming out and try to close the box as fast as possible. 00:10:53Closing hope inside. 00:10:57Hope indeed stayed inside because that was Zeus Zeus's. Will he wanted to let people suffer in order to understand that they should not disobey their gods. 00:11:09And it was the right person to do it because she was curious enough, but not malicious. 00:11:14Yikes, again. It's essentially the story of Adam and Eve. 00:11:19Don't need other the forbidden fruit. Why? 00:11:23Because if you do, 00:11:26You know, the knowledge of Good and Evil. That's why I love the gnostics Oreo creation because 00:11:34It's fucking bad-ass, write the reason the demiurge. Didn't want you to know knowledge was so you wouldn't understand that you are in some Matrix crew, some false Matrix created by Him. 00:11:49and by his little cronies group, right his little 00:11:52Posse of demons. 00:11:55So anyways, they needed this as if oh, yeah, we're releasing something new into the world of people are going to know that the wealthy Elites are 00:12:06or hiding their money. 00:12:10So Pandora papers, a money bomb with political ripples Revelations from nearly 12 million. Leaked confidential, Financial records have thrown light on on the concealed wealth of power. A powerful public figures around the world. How did they hide their money? And why is this information important? 00:12:30So Jordan Jordan Jordan's king of Mass on her million and concealed property, putting homes in Malibu, London and Washington and alleged Mistress of Russia's leader. May covertly by a luxury. Residence Inn. Minako, the Republic's prime minister and anti-corruption, crusader secretly acquired, a French Riviera State. Listen, we knew this ship weenie. This, this is nothing new. So 00:13:01The report. 00:13:03And then it says the name Pandora comes from the Greek myth about a sealed jar. Containing the world evil was based on what is 00:13:12what its authors described as 11.9 million records League from 14 firms in the offshore Financial Services industry depicting how the wealthy hide their assets more than 600 journalists and in a hundred Seventeen countries worked on. Don't you think that if they really truly didn't want this getting out? 00:13:35They would have stopped it from getting out. 600 people. Oregon has, don't you think one at least one of those journalists? 00:13:44It's paid off by somebody. 00:13:49Right. 00:13:51So, tell me something. I don't know. 00:13:55I don't know how to how does this differ from the Panama Panama papers of 2016? 00:14:01And or papers established Links of offshore activity to more than twice as many politicians and public figures of officials as the Panama papers did and incriminating report about the Offshore Banking industry released by The journalism Consortium, 5 years ago, the Pandora papers include information on more than 330 politicians, and public figures from over 90 countries and territories, including 35, current and former country leaders. 00:14:31I knew that. 00:14:33How do the wealthy hide money? 00:14:36Tax Havens, such as Panama, Dubai Monaco's hotel, in the Cayman Islands. 00:14:44As well as some American states like South Dakota and Delaware, there's like buildings with what a hundred and something thousand corporations registered. 00:14:55It is whether Obama say that the really big building or blah blah blah. 00:15:00We know this. Why is it Leo? Why is this illegal? Cuz they made the system. 00:15:08Why is this important? It's really not. I mean we knew this. 00:15:1221 here in total, 35 current, and former national leaders appear in the leak, alongside 400 officials from nearly a hundred countries. This is different. Now, more than a hundred billion euros, $29,000 4 accounts, 30 current, and former leaders in 300, public officials are named the first leaks October 2021. So you see that they don't even have your fucking information. Right? So one report says, one thing and then report says, another, an estimated, 32 trillion, maybe heading from being taxed. According to reports. 00:15:47I look through some of the list. 00:15:50Are the few Americans? 00:15:52Robert F. Smith, Robert C Brockman Jared wheat. 00:15:57David R Hixson, which is a convicted Criminal. 00:16:02And also, those are it was a serial killer I think on here, too. 00:16:07A convicted drug Smuggler. 00:16:10Convicted murderer and real estate are Robert Durst. 00:16:15Suspected serial killer. 00:16:17Peace. 00:16:20So this guy is awaiting sentencing. 00:16:25Wow, okay, first degree. Murder tampering with evidence bail. Jumping illegally, possessing a firearm misdemeanor. Come on. 00:16:33At 70 years old. 00:16:37Well, okay, so 00:16:41we knew this ship. 00:16:44Tell me something that I don't know about. 00:16:46And the reason I bring this up is because again, they are what? 00:16:53Taking away from the Limelight and making you focus, your energy, your attention, which is a commodity nowadays. 00:17:01I checked how much time I was spending on social on Instagram. 00:17:06Is it going? I'm part of the system as well. Just like you. 00:17:11I'm part of it. That's fine. Whatever. You know, we live in a society were. 00:17:17That's just the way it is. 00:17:22You got to be able to sometimes break free from The Matrix. The point is 00:17:28Even if you're part of the system, you have to know you're part of the system. 00:17:33It's okay. It's a problem when you're fully asleep. 00:17:37What's it going to be the red pill or the blue pill if you're fully asleep, that's when the problem is, is the issue. I saw that movie. 00:17:47Was Ryan Reynolds free guy? 00:17:52And I love.

 Episode 38- The Mindset of the Successful Job Search (Live Coaching) Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain, and this is the Career Design Podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being averaged in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.  Lindsay  00:42So we're walking through, Abby, can you give me like the 92nd version of how we got to here today? And then we're gonna keep going from here. Abby  00:52So yeah, absolutely. So um, the ones who are joining to you guys already kind of know what we're talking about, I think, just career search, I had a career switch in 2021 was laid off due to the pandemic and went back to school, graduated recently and have been on the job hunt ever since. And it's been a little frustrating going through this process. For me, for the first time in over 16 years, I've been with the same company for a long, long time. So I feel a little lost in the woods, and was asked to reflect on my experience so far on this journey. And I wrote a piece that I published in medium, if you haven't checked it out, go look at it, it's posted on my LinkedIn as well. And it's just a reflection on what how I feel about the process and how it's been going for me so far, and put it up on LinkedIn. And I was blessed to have Adam Karpiak comment on it. So if you don't know him, go connect with him he's amazing. And he does a lot of really great things for those who are searching for careers to in with, you know, resume services and whatnot. So he's amazing. And he tagged me in it and just asked everyone in his network to read it, Lindsay was part of that network and that's how we got connected. And yeah, it resonated with a lot of people. And I think there's just many of us out there right now kind of feeling this. And so yeah, Lindsay asked me to be on her podcast and talk about my journey and see if we can't crack the code. Lindsay  02:21We are going to go into talking about mindset today. And I'm gonna say, mindset affects every single one of us. In fact, I'm going to be one of the things radical transparency is one of my, my mantras here. And so I'm going to tell you that somebody came back to us after last week and told me that I told Abby, that I sounded like a valley girl. Oh, my God, which is so funny, because I was. So um, I'm not really a valley girl. But let me just say, if I'm not your cup of tea, then get the heck off of here. And I don't need to hear from you anymore. The same thing goes with you in your job search that there are going to be people who are not going to resonate with you. And a lot of times we're like, What's wrong with me? Here's the deal. What's wrong with it, you is them not, not actually something wrong with you. So a lot of times, people were like, please, please pick me, I don't really care if you pick me. I know that if you decide to follow my advice, we get massive results. In fact, this first somebody just started a job after going through my program. The same program, we're actually Abby is going through right now. He had a 55% raise after being laid off for 12-15 months, 55% raised. And then I had another person who just gave notice yesterday, and she got $5,000 more than her highest end of the compensation target, which we go really high, actually, that's one of the secrets about negotiation. Stay tuned, guys, if you want to get the same kind of information, you're getting live coaching with me, literally Abby's journey here. So please make friend with her and follow me. So you can be here when I'm going live. So what I want to know what I'm telling you about is that mindset is one of the most important things in fact, when I talk about introducing mindset into what we do now, if we don't have the right mindset for success, we tend to be victims of this process. And so I am going to say something really radical right now. Life is always working for you. And I know sometimes that doesn't feel like it. It doesn't. In fact, somebody very dear to me got fired via text, yesterday. I'll go back one year ago today, I sat and some of you don't know this, but my brother was murdered in 2019. One year ago today, I sat and faced his killer and gave a deposition in court. I have chosen to see that as a chance for me to be successful and to help others because I know life is really finite. Okay. So whatever it is, life is working for you and I don't need to share all of the pain that I've had in order for you to recognize like I've been there so have you I didn't start out being awesome. That would have been amazing story. I was born I was awesome and then I've just continued to be awesome. No, I started out with a pretty privileged childhood. I watched my dad go through a layoff and then I happen to have the same thing happened in early in my career, even after being a recruiter and I learned how to kind of crack the code as Vicki said. So that's really what we're sharing today is how do we get into this process, which is somebody who's hired 10,000 people, so 10,343 people, that's what I'm gonna go through here today. And mindset is the key differentiator. In fact, if you go look, I think I talked about resiliency and job search back in circa 2016, which I was interviewed by SHRM, which is a society for human resource management, as an expert about this and resiliency is the thing and job searching that keeps you to stay above the rest. So you have to recognize that life is working. I'm going to go back to Hey, and Waseem is here from Pakistan. 3% increase and Lindsay's guidance help tremendously. And thank you so much, Vicki. So Vicki is amazing. I don't like to volunteer, if you're one of the people who've worked with me, but we have 1000s of testimonials. So this is I love these stories. That's why keeps me going. But I want you to know that nobody has to be particularly special or have a degree from you know, I don't know, yeal, or anything, actually, other than claiming your power. That's, that's what I'm going to walk you through here. And that's what we're doing with Abby. And so, in fact, I've seen some shifts, and Abby just in this last week, in some of the ways that she has approaching things and even some of the changes she's made in her her stuff now so far. So I'm going to say here, if you're not interested in what I have to say, then get the heck off my live stream, because I have no time to waste for people who aren't here to get results. Okay, same thing goes. If somebody is not treating you with respect in your life or your career, then get the heck out of their circle and recognize that that was a blessing, but they show their true colors firsthand. Okay, so I'm going to actually read to you the mantra that starts with what we do for intentional career design. So it is called the I am talent mantra, which says that I can see Oh, no, you can't see it. Well, if you were zoomed out, right behind me. The I Am talent mantra says I am human, I am not defined by a piece of paper, nor defined by a system that has been designed to set me up to fail. I persevere I believe in something better, I give, assist, uplift and empower others, I do not complain, but I take action, I understand that failure is necessary on the path to success. I give before I take I am accountable for my actions, my results and my attitude. I believe in the best in others, I rise to any challenge. And I do not make excuses. I am resilient. I have unwavering faith that I will rise above my circumstances. When I fall down, I get up and I keep moving. I believe I can help change the world for the better. So this is where I'm gonna ask you to go hashtag I am talent. If you'll do that in the chat for me, I'll know that you're here with me. And that you guys get what we're going to do at the very end, I'm actually going to give you an opportunity to join something that'll give you some free results right away. So if you want to fast track some of the work that you're doing, in fact, I've enjoyed it. And I don't know how it's been for going through dream job boot camp so far. Abby  07:57It's good. No, I think it was really helpful just to kind of, like supplemented the other things that I was doing with you as well. And I got a lot of messages from others who joined us last week that were going through it and they were you know, just what did you think of this? And then we kind of got to talk about what we were doing different and it was a really great, yeah, good, good chance to connect with some of the others who are trying like to change up, you know, whatever their, their resume or their, their profile on LinkedIn. And then we'd send it back and forth to each other, like, how does this look, you know, so it was a really cool, cool experience. I think it was definitely a few like lightbulb moments for me.  Lindsay  08:33I love that. And so Bobby has behind the scenes of not just that but like my one of my highest tier paid programs. So she the fact that this free resource it was there to give you because for those that you don't know 80% of my business is run completely for free. I do everything with the idea I given given given to literally hurts we monetize a little bit of the rest. If you want to have faster results. We keep the lights on so we can feed our family one time. It's somebody who asked me, Why don't you do this for free? And I was like, so why don't you work for free? So sorry, folks, if you want the fastest results, you end up working with me personally. So if you're wanting to know what I do want you to is results, how do you get there faster, I have opportunities to work with me individually, you can work with me to apply or you can work with me on a free basis, using some of the tools I'm going to give you and that's what we do here. So if you're wondering what's in it for me, that's what's in it for me. But having the results that I get people who make an investment in their career tend to see that others will invest in them because if they believe they're worthy of it, then others are so if you're whatever you're doing to uplevel your career that tends to be how this process goes. So I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about intentional career design. So this is one of the things that I love Steve Jobs I you know, whenever you think of him as a leader, he was very visionary. And he talked about to the crazy ones. I'm going to talk to you about what that looks like here for what what career design really is about. And it's for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles, and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death. And we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We choose to redo work that truly matters aligns with our purpose. In turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do. This is actually what we what the career design podcast is all about. So if you haven't had a chance to tune into that, please go check out I have so many resources for you guys. It's been week, every time every week, I'm interviewing people and talking with some of the most amazing people out there who are making shifts and changes and have success so that you can get results. So tune in because that's what I'm doing and hit that follow button. Okay. Alright, so let me talk to you. I'm gonna teach a little bit and then we're gonna jump in. Abby  10:53I just want to say one thing real quick.  Lindsay  10:54Yeah, go ahead, do it.  Abby  10:55Um, so that intro like blew my mind when I heard it. And so if anyone else is listening here, and it is just, like, feel super empowered by that, like, just put like a in the chat?  Lindsay  11:06Yeah, okay. Let's put a fire sign, or heck yeah, whatever it is. But let's see, let's call out the people who are the 1% of the 1%. Because most of us have been conditioned to stay small to play by the rules. And it's actually what's kept you small and being a cog in a machine when you are truly the designer of your reality. And I change that through occupation. That's how I do that. And I'm here to help you understand your true mindset like belief, which is marketability body says, awesome. So your marketability is what we're really going into inside of this. So when I talk about intentional career design, what am I really trying to do inside of this process, I'm trying to one reduce bias. So people who are being dinged for being laid off for extended period of absences, maybe you've been a stay at home mom or dad, you have been, you've had a career pivot, you are over 40 or 50, you don't have a college degree, whatever it is that your biases, there's over 150 human biases, the first thing we're trying to do intentional design is reduce bias. So slows down our process. We want to do that. So we were reducing the friction to velocity. So what we're trying to do is, this process is all about how do we streamline it. How do we become what we call the purple squirrel. And so what we're trying to do is increase that velocity. So let's get to results. Let's get it faster. Second, is to increase your power position. Okay, so low power positions means I hope to god somebody chooses me. And I'll be lucky if I make it through all this. And that is not the mindset of a successful job search. So what we're trying to do is increase our power position. So we know that we feel like we have some control in our life, which is a true like, we want certainty, that's a core human need. So that's one of them. And next is to embody that high caliber candidacy. And you have to become this high caliber candidate in order for people to what I'm really trying to get you to do is in the dream job zone, the right job, the right company at the right salary, that's really hard for some people to believe. But I mean, you've seen the results here just in what people post on the live stream, like I'm not making stuff up. This is actual real people who are talking about getting 40% increases 133% increase, or 55% increase from somebody who started yesterday, my goal is to help you get there. Abby  13:21That's the whole point of what you're saying right? Now, if you don't believe that it's possible, it's never gonna happen. Lindsay  13:26Yes, whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right. It's one of my when I was in gym class when I was in elementary school, and to Henry Ford, and at one point, I ended up being homeless as a child. That was on my wall in my elementary school. And it's one of the things whether or not you believe in Henry Ford or not, like, you know, in what his he wasn't necessarily the greatest leader, but he was very visionary. And that was one of things, I realized that you are not a product of your conditions, you are a product of your decisions, no matter what pain or what place you're at, you get to choose whether or not I'm going to increase my success, or I'm going to decrease my success. And that starts with mindset. Okay, and then next is become the candidate of choice. That's aka the purple squirrel. So we're trying to become a candidate of choice. So high caliber candidacy and next level is the candidate of choice, which means that people are banging down your door to give you a job offer and we go through career power, which you may or may not recall that from last week, which is the intersection of both passion and purpose, combined with the pursuit of what you're truly aligned in your zone of genius and to uplevel your career to create profitability for both you and the business. This is the thing, it's a win win, which is why I see career designing the system of the future of how companies will amplify their talent to create massive profitability, which is by helping people enjoy what they do do work that truly matters makes their most meaningful contribution. And they actually go to work passionate, excited and energized so they don't feel like they're selling their soul for a paycheck. Okay, so that's what we're trying to do. Now. I want to break down this and you guys tell me here that are watching right now. Which one of these relate to you because I think the traits of the high performer and this is one of the podcasts I do is I talk about the pains of Being a high performer, is one you are relentless. Okay, like I do not stop achieving my goals. Okay. And I know that Abby for you, I wanted to hear from you what these ones were for you? Yeah, you're goal oriented. Okay? Next is that you validate assumptions, meaning I don't just assume that, like, people were like, I am having age bias. And I'm gonna recognize there is age bias. But most of the time when I see age bias, and that victim mentality, and just remember I say this with love, everything here is with love. That's actually not the issue. The issue is that you believe it's the issue. So you do something to sabotage yourself because you believe that is okay. They also prioritize their goals. Okay, so that means that they don't choose to put others before themselves, they actually will prioritize their goals over everything else. They're looking for long term achievement. So always going for how do I uplevel my life, even if you get knocked down a peg, or stabbin, they're always are coming back up. They are never satisfied. Ooh, Nina says here, absolute what you decide what your destiny is, is by your decisions. Yeah, I've been asking a lot of things around spirituality, because I am very spiritual and what I do, and nice is asked like, do you believe in the law of attraction, but we're whether or not you believe in law of attraction, intention is super powerful. Okay, so what you intend, we tend to hit goals that we actually set for ourselves, whether or not usually that's law of attraction or just intentions? Either way, it's a really powerful strategy. Okay. I'm hoarse being average, radio being. Right, Abby, Abby  16:30That's a killer. Lindsay  16:33Next embraces and invites change. In fact, a lot of the times where we've had our lowest moments, we actually decided to struct ourselves. And I'll tell you that intentional career design is one of those things that I did where I was, like, I'm neglecting someone's soul in the process here, it's not just about jobs. It's about destiny, actually, and how do we create a reality for yourself, and when I decided to do that collapse timeframes, people get 10 times the results in a shorter amount of time, which is pretty crazy, since that program just rolled out this year. Next is I face fail spectacularly. And that means that we are tend to like not want to try until we know that we're going to go all out. And when we go all out, we're they're gonna go amazing, it's gonna crash and burn. So we don't do anything half. We don't do anything like that. Okay. And then the other is that they understand they're in the business of meetings. And that is the most powerful thing I want you to realize you are in a business, whether or not you believe it or not, I'm going to teach you how to market that business through this strategy. And what I mean by that is that you are selling a something of value and someone is going to give you an investment, we're not trading time for money for tasks, we're trading investment for value to get a return for that business that creates profitability. And when you see yourself as that, then you realize the most powerful impact that you can make. So that's the reprogramming here,  Abby for you what was kind of a big one. Abby  17:49Um, so there was kind of like three that tied together, but like the never being satisfied and embracing, innovating change, like for me, those two really go hand in hand. Because if I'm not satisfied, I'm always looking for something else. And I know you mentioned this in your your mantra, like being average is like feels like death. Like, I just feel that if I you know, if I'm not contributing, if I'm not impactful, then like, what am I here for anyway? What is I guess? Like, if you want to get philosophical, like, what, what is my purpose if it results in nothing, right? So like, That, to me is just the worst, the worst things that could possibly come out of my life. Yeah, and I just realized, like, in the never being satisfied and embracing change, like those can be very good things. But it really depends on how you leverage that feeling. And I think going through this, I realized that, you know, in some ways, it's really good, because that means I'm open to try new things, it means that I'm constantly learning, I'm curious about life, and I will take on new challenges. And that gets me excited. But then on the other hand, if I let it overwhelm me, it turns into like, you know, just like being dissatisfied with your life in general. And feeling like I can't enjoy the the journey that I'm learning on because I never quite get where I want to go. And I sometimes don't even know what that means. But when I do achieve a goal, I can't appreciate it. Because I immediately like critiquing what I'm doing. saying like, Okay, how could I have done that better? Or, like, Where can I go next from here, and I don't even appreciate the moments that are successful. So it really kind of goes, it's like a double edged sword for me.  Lindsay  19:24Yes, I feel that one too. So we tend to the closer our goal, the less impactful it actually gets. It's another high performer of not being able to celebrate the journey, and realizing that the journey is actually what we're supposed to be celebrating and the whole point of our experience, actually, so, but it's really hard when we get to that. So for you guys that are tuning in, I'm going to actually drop a link for those that want to jump into the boot camp because if you're ready to change your mindset now and get clarity in the next steps, I want you to go to dream job hack.com slash boot camp. Okay, so I'm going to talk to you about a little bit of the mindsets in order to win okay. Mohamed has a good question. I'm just going to post this up, we're not able to cover all of this today. But in two weeks, or should say, a week from a Friday, we're going to be actually going into this piece. And if you are struggling, again, how to transform your experience two to three pages, which it's two pages, by the way, then the thing is, nobody buys your resume, yet six seconds, you cannot describe your lifetime of experience in six seconds, and then two pages. So abandon that philosophy. I'm gonna teach you more about that. So dream job hack.com slash boot camp, you'll get these answers. Each one of you, it's five days to getting success, okay. And it's the quickest like version of how to get through to a place of momentum really quickly. That's why I built that program. Okay. And it's totally free. By the way, I've extended extended the timing for that bootcamp. Okay. So here's some of the mindset. First thing is I know nothing. This is a Socrates mindset, which says, If I come, I'll tell you like, one of the things that I work inside of right now like I have a coach for energy, healing, whatever it is, that's your, you know, your fruit of the week, whatever it is that you're excited about, go ahead and own it. Okay, own it authentically you. But when I come to that, I don't come and say, Oh, I learned about this, I learned about that. I'm a student. And so in here, I want you to recognize I have hired 10,000 people I've helped 15,000 people on average, someone working with me graduates with a $50,000 pay increase, not $50,000 job, pay increase, okay? Why do they get so high? Because we have people get hundreds of 1000s of dollars, that let me tell you, they didn't do anything spectacular, except work with me and a cool clothes container for that time. So here's the thing, stop throwing away unless you have hired 10,000 people have become a best selling author and have helped 15,000 people. And if you are I don't know why you're on this live stream. Go ahead. Okay, someone else? Yeah. Once you have that, then throw away whatever you know, and start with a clean slate. So we'll come to it with the idea of I don't have anything. Next thing is the secret of success is trust the process and people will be like, well, like what if you through all this? Okay, so go back to that. I know nothing. Trust the process, that has been proven like, it's kind of like, Well, you know, maybe if I'm trying to let's say I'm trying to exercise I think I'm gonna see how well just sitting on my chair is gonna work. Because that's like another idea. I can throw out like, trust the process that you're going to need to move your body if you're trying to increase your physical fitness. Okay? Okay, so I will be your truth teller. So Abby's gonna learn things. And she said she's willing to be up here and publicly critique. So she's going to get some of that. And I've seen some of the change she's already made and things and I'm like, Yes, I don't have to critique it, because she's learning and tradable relentless learner here. And then if it was going to work, what you had already been doing, it would have frickin worked by now. Okay, so stop getting in your own way and join boot camp. Okay, that's the first thing, and then make progress or make excuses. This one's hard. Because a lot of times when I see the victim mentality, and I fall victim to this as well, like life off, things are so unfair. And guess what life is unfair, sorry, that's just how it is. Okay, I can make a list of all the things I've gone through, and no offense, but it's probably bigger than yours. Okay. So and that's not to say that your pain isn't like when people. So I'll just say like, when my brother was murdered, I still ran my business, I still coach. In fact, when I was I, there was a point where I was clearing his house out after the crime scene had come in. And I helped someone negotiate a 60% raise while I was filling up the gas in the rental car, and to return it while he was at his house. I did not stop running my business and the people who are going through the pain of job searching, I recognize that pain is just as acute for them and where they're at. So what I'm trying to say here is you get to choose whether or not you move forward, or you get to choose whether or not you choose to be a victim and have excuses, okay, and I say like I literally have a victims unit coordinator, I am technically considered a victim, I choose to see myself as a frickin survivor, okay. Also, there's no magic pill. If there was, I would sell it for you for a million dollars. Okay, so there's not a magic pill, or I would just give it to you. And the other thing is that you have bad behaviors. And you have learned along the way that are holding you back, and things that you picked up from people who say they know what they're doing. And I'm gonna throw a few stones here. There are a lot of career coaches who've taken some sort of online certification, but I've actually never hired anybody. I sat in the unemployment office during the course of my layoff in the Great Recession. And listen to somebody who had never hired anybody teach me how to job search. And when I tried to do everything that she had said, which had already been doing and thought was the answer. It didn't work. So this program came from actually breaking down the process of how I went and fault found high caliber talent that we reverse engineered it. So I'm giving you the step by step plan. Okay. All right. So here's some things the things that are going to sabotage you on the way is one other coaches. Alright, so there are some people like Adam Karpiak, you should definitely listen to Adam. Yes, you should listen to Adam. Let's go look and see Adam is one of my first endorsements and he's the like, he said, I am one of the reasons that he started posting on LinkedIn. Okay, you should listen to Adam. There are people out there who are good ones, look who I'm following if you want to get the idea. There's a lot of people who aren't Okay, and they give Kumbaya messages that are like, wouldn't it be nice if the world was better? Okay, stop like having a pity party and do something. Okay. And what I share here is about how you do something. Okay. Next is your spouse. Your spouse has a big And this is shout out to all the spouses that are there and being really supportive. Your spouse has a vested interest in your success that cannot be objective. And so they cannot give you objective feedback.  In fact, so my, when I was married, my husband went back to work after four years, and he was stay at home dad. And he's amazing partner and but I said, there's no way in Heck, I'm coaching you, you can work with someone on my team, because I am too invested in what the outcome is. And so I would choose something that would give me safety versus choosing what your actual purposes. So be careful of what your spouse's, your family is another one, your family tends to want to protect you versus and they're not job is not to support you, your job is to support you. So make sure you listen to that. That person is inside of you first, and then your self limiting beliefs, the things that you do to sabotage yourself. Okay. All right. Um, all right, I also swear a little bit, that's one of the things to know. Okay, so I'm here, I say that like, because I can't really swear on this platform. But if you ever join into my other stuff, you will see that I swear, because I'm considered the Antichrist of Human Resources. That's what I do at the highest, I want to completely destroy traditional human resources, it is about mitigating risk from our own people, which are our best asset and get we protect the company from them. And I feel like if we just did, and I'll talk about this through other stuff that I'm doing, if we created an environment where companies amplified talent, that would be a much better success versus trying to protect ourselves from companies, okay, or from our own people. That's ridiculous. And how do we make sure that whether Yeah, preach, right, whether or not for short term or long term, they should walk away, we still want them to do business with us, and we still want them to talk favorably about us, that should be the most powerful thing we do here. Okay. All right. I am going to go through, there's a lot of stuff inside of this. So we're gonna keep going. Okay, so what am I looking for you to do in your career? Well, I told you about the dream job zone, I'm going to reiterate that one, the dream job zone is the right job. And what I mean by the right job, let me just tell you, the right jobs is the moment you're in it, and it can change the next step, it can change because the company got a new leader of change, because your job got reassigned. Nothing is like static, when people are like, I want to find a job for my life. And I was like, good luck, you might want to build your own business, then Okay, and then likely, you're still not going to be able to stick in the same job, there is no job for life, you need to throw away that old mentality from the 1990s, it's not going to happen, okay, you are going to make a job change. And on average, if you want to increase your salary, like every two to three years is about the right move. I know. But this is the whole point no longer a victim in your, in your career, you're going to do this now. Okay, what I want you to do is the right job at the right company in the right company really comes down to both the supervisor and the company. So every job that you see posted out there is not the right job, okay, it's not the right company. That's part of your vetting process. So when we get into the employer, we're making them prove that they are worthy of our talent. That is the main mindset change, here, they are worthy of our talent, and that they would be lucky to have us repeat that for me in the chat for me, I am making sure that they are worthy of my talent, and they are lucky to have us okay. And what I want you to do inside of this is go to the place of last one was the right salary. So, in addition, you should be paid really well. You shouldn't be lucky to get a good job with a good company, you get paid really well. Likely you've generated hundreds, if not millions of dollars in impact for a business in your career. How is that their luck? You're lucky to have a job, they're lucky to have you this is the reprogramming we have to go through okay. All right. So the definition of what I'm trying to get you is this place of career power, which is anything that rewards you financially, emotionally, spiritually, mentally, and allows you to build a life beyond your wildest dreams. Yes, it is possible and I choose the occupation because occupation is one of the core or five core areas of wellness. This is from Gallup. And what we're trying to do here, so there's a few ways you need to know that you should never dim your light for others insecurities going through this. So don't diminish yourself stand in your truest power, and it's going to piss off the people who feel unworthy. It's gonna piss off the people who are not your tribe. So you want to stand in your power and try stop fitting yourself into a box. There is no box, we create the damn box, okay? And it's not even a box. It's some weird shape. Okay. All right. So some of us have this mindset that we're really trying to address, which is whether or not I am worthy. worthiness is the big thing. Okay. So we come into this and we're like, Okay, I'm flawed. I'm not deserving, who do I think I am, okay. And I want you to go and change your my mantras to be I am worthy. I deserve abundance and I will change the world with my gifts. If you truly believe those things, then you will do the work to make that happen. Yeah, I'm making sure they are worthy of my talent. They're lucky deserve me. The companies are lucky to have us. Yes. Preach. Okay. Abby  29:41I hope that just people can believes in this because I haven't seen anybody else. So speak up for this. Lindsay  29:45Yes. Seriously, like this is the one main reprogramming is worthiness. Okay. I'm so ready for Lindsay. I'm so glad you're here. And yeah, I had somebody recently just on my podcast, they're like, let me talk so fast. I'm super sorry. Okay. All right. So here's some key beliefs to self worth. And then we're going to after this, I'm going to transfer mindset here, there's not a lot of work in mindset except ingraining it as far as your programming, so you're going to hear your own talk tracks, which they're going to be days where I'm like, and I'm going to say, like I am, I do not teach anything, I don't have to learn by myself. I have my own coaches, I buy my own, I drink my own Kool Aid, okay? So this will be days where I'm like, I really thought today, I don't feel very good, I am a loser, whatever it is that I want to tell myself and I have these pity parties for myself, and I recognize that I do. And then I have to get and say, I am worthy. I am deserving. Look at the impact I've made. And I'm going to teach you how to do this. Everything I do through here, by the way, is about reinforcing this mindset. So by the end, you become something we call unwithable. I say it like that, because I can't say it. You're okay. With the ball. Okay, that's our that's my favorite swear word, by the way. So what I want you to know is the key beliefs around self worth is that I don't need to please anybody else. When we start giving up what other people believe in us, and this is a practice, we have to continue, I just told you about how somebody kind of made me not to make me feel bad, I chose to feel bad about that. I also believe you choose how you feel, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt just means that I choose to how I believe and I spent a little bit time going through that and realizing, yeah, I don't really care what you do until most people, the people who are criticizing you, and this happens to me in the chat, if this is you, the most people will criticize you or never doing more than you because they're too busy doing other crap. So you're not gonna find out in cardiac, probably on this live stream talking about whatever I'm doing because he's got his own stuff to do. Okay, so people who criticize you, or always have some sort of issue with you, that have issue with you are always doing less than you. And that's offensive to people who don't feel worthy about themselves. But that's not your issue. That's theirs, let them go ahead and keep it okay. I choose how I feel about myself. My actions reflect my values, okay, my internal barometer of my value is based on my alignment to my goals, values, principles and actions, not what anybody else tells me, okay, and even when i f up and you will, because I said failure is necessary in the path to success. I know that I matter, I matter. And in turn, I will do what it takes to align myself to my goals, my values, my principles, and my actions, okay? Things are always going to shift in your job search, your career is never stagnant. It's like saying that you will never change. Okay? Nobody ever can commit to that. We invite change. Okay. One of the reprogramming things they need to have you believe is that every rulebook you've been given around, this has actually lied to you. Okay? job searching is not about searching for a job creating a single page or 17 page resume and applying online, it does not work that way. It does work point 4% of the time. Sorry, true story. Okay. So what we need to believe is that I instead of seeing limits, I see potential, I don't see problems, I see opportunities, I know that I am a catalyst to my own change. I'm not focused on the here and now and looking at my long term strategic focus. I don't care about what other people are doing for like, I was not resentful about other people's success. India's normal, India's human, but really what I'm trying to do is celebrate success for there for all I really believe in abundance, and that there is enough pie to go around. In fact, let me tell you, it's at the very top, they've got enough to give, okay, I'm not tied to any particular outcome, which means I don't care how like that one conversation or anybody here who doesn't like me today, I'm tied to whether or not my clients get results and whether or not I'm making a better impact on the world. I believe that I don't win, I win through my team and my clients. And that's the difference here. Okay, I don't have a problem for every single solution. I'm always looking for solutions that we can overcome together. I know that I creates results by taking action, not just by showing up. And instead of I know it all, I'm always learning like I'm learning from Abby. And that's probably a weird thing to say when you're supposed to be coaching somebody but we learn from every single person here, okay. Okay. All right. So I'm going to jump down here because there's a lot more that comes into this, but we always one of the biggest things inside of in mindset is your self care. Okay? So if you do not put yourself first and this means, yes, mothers or people who have spouses or partners, you put you first Okay, so oxygen mask first. If you ever been on an airplane, they tell you, if the oxygen mask drops, you put it on you first. Okay? If you cannot take care of you, then How the hell can you take care of anybody else? Okay, and it is not their job. Your job, they might support you, but the only person who can take care of you is you. Hey, key. So I'm Vicki. How about Sorry, I'm Vicki. Vicki, you can tell me about yourself here too.  She's pretty excited. I was reading um, Elvie's of comments here. So tell me Abby for you. What have you tuned into for self care now in this process of really upgrading your mindset? Abby  34:54Oh my gosh, this is a big question. I think of the things that Um, we reviewed like, for me, I think it starts with my overall health. And I say that as a very general thing. So that means like physically, emotionally, mentally, you know, making sure that all those things are in the right place. There are many ways that you can shift your mindset. But for me, if I'm not taking care of myself, like you said, How can you take care of anyone else, and that doesn't mean just, you know, not just getting up and exercising, which is what I have been doing. But you know, I'm inconsistent. And I can tell when things shift, I will be, like, for example, when things are going well, it's because I woke up and I started my day, right. And I did my meditation in the morning, I did my exercise, I made myself breakfast, like, I started off on the right foot, and then from there, I can prioritize and organize my life. And on the days that are not, it's probably like, I hit my snooze button a bunch of times, didn't work out, feeling sorry for myself, like, you know, I just fall into this pattern, and it kind of spirals out. So for me, I'm really making, you know, a more conscious effort to do those things right away and just start my day, right. And then, you know, make sure that I'm thinking about it through the day and taking breaks from my screen a little bit throughout the day, just to go out and like be in the sunshine for a few minutes and brief. For me, that's really important. And, you know, taking the time to like, spend with the people who around me that energize me, and that, you know, I can share with and a lot of these guys are here for me as well. All of you guys who showed up today, like that's, I can't even tell you what that means. It's, it's like an overall, like you're frustrated together. But the fact that we're all here supporting each other is I think it's very powerful. And for me, it's very encouraging. So thank you for being here. So yeah, I'm trying to invest my time and the things that I know are going to fill my cup rather than just wallowing in self pity, you know. Lindsay  36:59And Raven says way to be authentic and vulnerable. Yes. And so authenticity and vulnerability are so so one, that's why I like Abby is here. Honestly, if she hadn't bothered to share her, her voice with the world, if she hadn't bothered to be transparent, she wouldn't have all these people who are cheering her on. So a lot of times we like to pretend that everything is okay. It is okay to say, I am not doing super great, but I'm choosing to move forward. Okay. And that's if you notice, like she said, I don't want to complain, or I don't wanna feel like I'm stuck. I know. I was like, I didn't get that at all. I just thought now how do we make the world better? Holly says she's cheering you on. So I love that. You too. Self Care is one of the big things. And I'm going to tell you that after my brother died, this was something I really struggled with, I really, really struggle with and love. People are like, wow, Lindsey, what has changed for you, like you're so much more healthy, more energized, more like able to be more consistent in everything that you do. Because running a business is just like, it is the hardest thing that to do personally, like it's the most expansive growth that I've ever seen. And I think any of my other fellow entrepreneurs will agree with that. How, what's what's changed, okay, I spent and you do not need to do this extreme, but I recommend at least one hour, three hours, three hours of self care in the morning. And here's why I have to look and I get up at five in the morning. So my little kids, when I get to the end of the day, I have something left to give them because you know what, they're the most important thing in my entire world, my job and my business and all my customers. I love you guys, you're very important to me some of my greatest accomplishments. But the thing that matters most to me is my family. There's the ones that really matter. And I mean, I tell lots of stories about my background. But I watched my dad go through an extended unemployment, he spent two years plus searching for a job and I watched his self worth completely wither away. And I'm really thankful I got to spend that time. So I'm here because my purpose is he actually went into the hospital after that job search. And he never got to walk out again.He was had inoperable brain tumor, and it's life into just a few months later. And so like I in my life been very, very hard after that, I became a homeless kid. And things were really, really challenging. So when I say like, I understand your pain, folks, I have been at the very bottom, I have been to the very bottom homeless without even a parent. So when I look at like my kids, I look and I say, they're the ones that matter most are all gonna be this little for a tiny minute. Okay, so we're gonna say an Amen. All right, so I want to say like, there's some things that we do and I love when we were like, I don't have time for this. And I was like, so and I'm gonna use an example full data because I don't watch TV. How to Game of Thrones in you can tell me that then what you're telling me is that you prioritize your entertainment over your self care. And Alright, so the first thing when we don't we, when I see people are like, I can't do this. And I'm like, if you were watching television, you have chosen something different. You have chosen that's a collective consciousness like that. Like oh, you know what is the world going on out there? Your TV is not going to uplevel your career okay? Your TV is not going to save your TV is not your family. So one stop making bs excuses second stop numbing out. And that could be through alcohol could be by hitting the snooze button it could be. And I'm not saying you don't need some time for restorative care, you should, you should and I still watch TV, there's some things I do. I'm not saying that you can't, but I limited and if you I always look at habit stacking which atomic habits is really a powerful thing. So like, I know, I can watch TV after do my dishes. Okay, like that's one of my things in order for me to get that reward. Okay. And the other thing is I do self destructive, self destructive behavior. So I'm gonna be really transparent here. When I feel really bad about my life, or whatever is going on, I will go get a Big Mac. I will go get a Big Mac at a soda two things. absolute garbage is good for which is not even that great for a little bit. And then I feel like shit and I've punished myself. So I want you to know, whatever you're doing, examine the behavior and what's the root cause of the story? You're telling yourself about it? And really, like be honest and stop hiding it. Stop making excuses. Okay. Okay. So let's see here. What? One of the things that really changed for me was when I started embracing habits and habits if you haven't picked up atomic habits, like you probably heard it a million times. It's so powerful. So habit stacking is another thing and also like consistency things like I drink a lot of water. I drink a lot of water. I've meditate I journal I set intentions. Yeah, exactly. So what I want you to think about is how do I change my mind if I can hack the first few hours of my day, when the rest of it in fact, you spend two hours just investing the beginning of your day, setting an intention, being mindful, exercising your mind exercising your body, choosing things that amplify your results versus I'm going to tune out or whatever it is that you're going to do that everyone tells you are so important. It's not so like, yeah, keetsa your legs are going I can tell you're living it. Yes. So I want you to think about what makes me feel good and do more of that. Okay, and not temporarily feel good, like a glass of wine may make me feel good. But I know that a bottle of wine doesn't okay. Choose what behaviors here that you're going to indulgent and choose for self care. And this is one thing like we've somehow especially women, women shout out to Luma shout out to the moms in particular, like Somehow, I get a shower. So I took self care, no shower is basic dignity. Okay, you get a shower. Okay, so anybody who's gonna smell it's not getting a shower regularly, please give that person some help here. Okay. Um, and the other thing here is, if you haven't ever read the book, power versus force, these are two book recommendations. Power versus force talks a lot about the different energies. We all have electromagnetic frequencies. Oh, my god, did you get it? changed my life. This book changed my life. And when I realized, like I was buying into things and grief is one of the hardest grief and shame, which are two of the things that happen in job search. When I was stopped doing that, and started resonating at a higher frequency, we tend to magnify what our successes so take a look at that book, if you haven't had a chance, cutting all the noise on radio made a big difference in my life. Yeah, the other thing I don't do is i'm a no news diet. I don't listen to the news. Because one, I literally have been the front page like of it bleeds, it leads, I have been that I have literally been, they've capitalized on my pain, they twisted my story, they've made it sound horrible when my brother was the one who was attacked and killed. And, um, it's like, I'm no longer buying into what mass media is, we have to choose what what we surround ourselves. So choose your, your, your frequency, choose your circle and choose yourself care. Those would be the big mindsets, okay. All right. So now I've got a little bit of time here. So Abby, I'm going to give you five minutes to ask your questions where you're at. And then I'm going to open up to the rest. And then we're going to talk about what we're going to do on Friday for the next thing. So the very first part here, by the way, is a lot It is low. It's really easy. When I say really easy, like I don't have people like I'm like, go ahead and write your resume. You will have that as an assignment here. But what I want you to do now is if you can change your mindset, everything else becomes exponentially easier because you realize that you're creating your own reality. Okay, go ahead, Abby. Abby  44:03Yeah, like real quick before I ask a question, though, like, I think, for me, going through this week, like you said, I feel like I've already learned so much, but I'm open to it. And I'm in a place where I finally am like, I like I have no other choice. This is where I'm going with choosing this. So it's a choice. It's a conscious choice. Like you said, you know, you can drink a whole bottle of wine or you can sit on the couch and eat like a pint of Ben and Jerry's or you can like, go do something that will actually be beneficial to you. So my, I guess word of encouragement to you guys is just pay attention to how you feel all the time. throughout the day. Start thinking about what you're doing and how that's making you feel and stop choosing the things that are making you feel bad about yourself. And yeah, we have moments, right, we're going to we're not perfect, we're human, we're gonna fall back sometimes, but um, but if you start to recognize it, it's easier to avoid right and you have to create new habits which let me just be honest, it's hard, hard work. breaking your old habits. But if you want to change if you want to feel different, you have to do something different than what you've been doing.  Lindsay  45:07So if you want to feel different, you have to be doing something different. Oh my gosh, yes. Okay, I love that. And this is where I always were checking in on mindset. I'm like, this is just you have to choose to put you first. Yeah, that's the biggest thing, you have to choose to do the oxygen mask, I don't really care what you choose. There are some things like I talked about body, brain, belief and love. These are the three or four components of what I like for people to do in their daily routine, which is, what are the mantras I do? How do I take care of my mind and my body? And then how do I express love, because love for me, you can't really see it. Opposite here. value. And so if I do all things with love, so he asked me what my secret success is, if I do all things with love, then I know and turn the universe comes back to me. And people tend to know that my heart's in a really good place. Like I'm not really, I would, in very truthful transparency, I would love to unemploy myself in what I do. I would love to, because I don't want this to be a problem for anybody. That's actually what my long term goal is very weird, backwards business philosophy. I'm not in the business of making money. I'm in the business of making a difference. But I also want to take care of my family and I want you to be able to carry bores, and that's what we do. Okay, keep going, Abby. Sorry, I didn't mean to keep cutting you off.  Abby  46:17No, that's okay. I kind of got on a soapbox for a second. But I just felt like maybe somebody needs Lindsay  46:21Oh, Fox, yes. If you can give like let's go I go hashtag Abby here. Amazing human, let's I keep telling her I was like, I'm just so thankful for her and being in my world now. Because she's just an amazing person. And she makes me better just by showing up. Abby  46:35I'm so happy you're here to. Um, if you guys feel I have to be up here being vulnerable. So if you feel like you want to share something and be vulnerable in the chat, it's a safe space here too. So, you know, tell us about you know, if you're struggling with something, or if you want to give something up, or if you want to change, feel free to share it. That is, I would love to hear about it. Lindsay  46:54I would love to hear so I'm gonna actually do that. Because you guys are gonna have a chance to ask questions. Go ahead and plug that in now like what are you struggling with? What like, what's the, and I might be telling you, I'm going to cover that in a later week. Or I might be telling you go join the boot camp for a dream job half because you're going to see a massive change in just five days. But let's go ahead and open for questions. And Abby, you go ahead and start with yours. Abby  47:15Oh, my gosh. Okay, I have a few. Let's see. Um, okay, so. Okay, I don't want to jump too far ahead. But I'll talk to you about something that happened to me this week. So I know that you mentioned kind of further along, and some of you guys might already be in this part on your career. Thanks for that. I'm lucky that you applying for jobs is not the way you get a job, right? Like it's not, it's not done that way. I don't know how it's done yet. But we're gonna find out. Lindsay  47:49Well, you guys, I promise. Abby  47:52But my question is, I know that a lot of us get approached, especially on LinkedIn with and I don't know if it's just like recruiters, or like people selling a service, or whatever it is, but we got lots of messages out there that are like, you know, I found you and your look like a perfect match for XYZ thing. And like one of two things usually comes out of it. And I've noticed this, like, for me, it's either I'll write back, and they'll say, Oh, I don't actually have a job for what you do. So it's, I mean, just spam. And then the other one is, sometimes you'll write back and then they don't respond, or it takes him like a week. And they're like, oh, sorry, I got busy. Like, what I guess is your advice on how to or whether or not to respond and how to respond to that, like, what's best practice. Lindsay  48:40I'm gonna give you a couple things here. So one, I'm just like, everything are really poor recruiters out there. And one of the things I do is I teach organizations how to actually go out and target people. If you've ever applied to this, every job with the same resume, you probably have also gotten these math, I'm not saying and one grace the other. But if you ever apply the same job, and then you get a response that's canned and sounds like what we call like a mass market message. Those it's the same thing. So I want you to we're going to change this completely in the way so I want you to think like I'm going to tell you I get reached out about collection agent rules. And so what I when I see that I don't know, what's wrong with me, or what's wrong with them. I think that's a plan. Okay, and so a lot of times when I'm going through this, the things that are not even close are I wouldn't do and people who treat you like you are one of many, like I look at my and I have a large following, but I don't say like oh, like McQueen, everything I have, you know, six figures of followers across all my platforms. I don't think I have you know, followers. I think I have 100,000 people and souls that are following me. So if they don't treat you like you're an individual, they're likely not have the same mindset that you have. So you kind of have to take away that idea that somebody is that they are going to be worthy of you or something's wrong with you. So if we take away that thing, I just want you to think like, these are opportunities that are coming into me. And they may or may not come to fruition, which is why worthiness is so important and why mindset becomes a big one. So that's the first thing is backup strategy. Okay. Second is people, one of the things that's challenging is we tend to, like, we put all our eggs in a couple of baskets. And so we always want to have like, one of the traits of a high caliber candidacy is having multiple options. So we never have all our eggs like, like this one thing, if it doesn't work out, suddenly, something like, all my plans have gone to crap. And now I'm a horrible human, Abby  50:34I have learned the hard way. Lindsay  50:38So this, sadly, like I had one client, she's like, I was just I knew this was the job for me. And everything like I knew it was and then that job, so she got to the second level or second, or second place, and then get the job. And she's I was like, so what happened with all this is what we're gonna do in a few weeks here. What happened with this, they're like, Oh, I stopped doing that, because this seemed like it was a thing. So we never stop, we never stop, I'm going to show you how to focus on what you do. By the way, do what I teach here is not about doing everything I say, for eight hours a day, two hours a day, Monday through Friday, in the course of nine weeks, I can get you those results, okay, we're talking about the freedom principle we're gonna do less is more. So in that every person that you're reaching out to connect with is going to be or that connects with you is going to be worthy of your time. And I say that because there are a lot of recruiters always have options. Yeah, Keith says, I probably see 20 message or respond to that I never hear from him again. Okay, so we are going to talk about this inside. So one, first off, go sign up for boot camp, because we're gonna change how like your optimization on your profile is one of the challenges that you're having. Second, you have to realize that there's people who are doing crap out there, and they're doing like they're sending out garbage and they're getting garbage back. I have been guilty of this, I'll tell you that recruiters get inundated. So we have to become the candidate of choice, which is what I'm going to show you through this process. So it means optimizing your profile, optimizing our story, and having really value out of connection conversations, I'm gonna teach you how to do this. In fact, you might have started some of this work already Abby, the value proposition is going to be the key here, it's going to be the secret sauce. It's also the hardest thing that you will ever do. And I had a Chief Branding Officer at a very major company who almost cried, and it was a guy while doing this with me. And if he couldn't get it together, I don't expect anybody to and I don't cry anymore. So I don't think actually, it's just I tapped on, like, I need you to show me that you're worthy of this. And people don't know how to deliver that. And so that's what I'm teaching you about the business of meeting. So once you to know one takeaway that there that anybody has any decision on yourself worth except how you choose, every event is neutral, it's either working for you. So if they don't respond to you then say that opportunity wasn't for me, okay? Or and I also want you to think that connections, especially the ones who are really heartfelt recruiters will want to make a connection, they may take a little bit of time, but when we want to get results, and we are showing up on our calendar versus theirs, we are overwhelmed as recruiters and so I also am a recruiter advocate. I believe the program that we've worked, like the system that HR is operating in, is not sustainable. And so recruiters, the ones who we typically like we believe in the human, we've somehow forgot about the human inside of businesses, but we believe in the human. That's why we got into it. But we are overwhelmed. Let me just ask you, Abby, how many do you think how many applicants do you think I worked with on a monthly basis? When I was working? Abby  53:17I got 1000s, I'm sure.  Lindsay  53:18Yeah. So far. It's been three and 6000. And I was hiring four people a month.  Abby  53:23I don't think that. Yeah, I don't I I, I mean, you've read what I wrote, like, I know that the recruiters aren't the problem. Hiring managers are not the problem, HR. People are not the problem, though, right? It's the system that they have to upgrade with the program. Lindsay  53:40Exactly, but we don't we don't have HR is not seen as a revenue generating department. So it's understaffed, and people don't place a lot of value in it, because they just don't see it. And so we've always undermined the value that has, so that makes it really hard. And so we have a really overworked system. So we need to get Oh, Vicki got a new job last week. That's amazing. I didn't really she's not sometimes not with me. So this is where I get really excited. In three years, I have people who which you should be doing, they should be about this time changing jobs. Again, we're seeing massive change. So what is don't put a lot of weight in this and know that intentional hyper targeting will be the secret of what we're going to do, we're going to find the right people which combines both influence and authority to identify our and reveal the hidden job market and I'm going to talk about this and some people and some people I really respect will say that's not true. I'm gonna say, I have I think I posted a job a long time ago with my business but I have never ever hired somebody from a job advertisement in my business and I have hired a lot of people like 50 so I'm just know that the for the right companies like I have created jobs for people we can do that. That's what I'm actually teaching you to do is how to have somebody see your value so highly, that they will create an opportunity for you. That's the end goal. So when I say like I can teach you how to land a six figure job without ever having to apply. I'm going to show you how to do that. Okay, so hang on, don't worry about the house so much right now. Exactly how you get access to the frontline, you're going to share with everybody your story so hard to sometimes get caught in that. So the big part is just No, there's nothing wrong with you the system is broken, you already know this, but for everybody else listening, and that don't put a lot of the weight in that my worthiness is depend on whether or not somebody responds to this.  Abby  55:17Yeah, 100% I know, we're kind of near the end here. But like just a couple things that came to mind. Like, what Lindsay said, it's it. It's interesting to me that the job punch for me starts with my own mindset and what I think of myself, internally, it's not where I expected to start, but certainly work. Um, so just a couple things like, you know, mentioning, taking advice from other people, be careful of that, because one thing that I realized, and I'm gonna post on resonate with any of you guys, but um, I take advice from people that I respect, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I want their life. And if I'm taking advice from people whose life is not the life that I want, then guess what I'm going to end up with their life, and it's not the life that I want.  Lindsay  56:03that is the most powerful statement there. So I'm going to tell you, I had a conversation and I love my m

 Ep. 34: Introduction Fun Into Work Lindsay  00:00I'm Lindsay Mustain and this is the Career Design Podcast made for driven ambitious square pegs and round holes type professionals who see things differently and challenge the status quo. We obliterate obstacles and unlock hidden pathways to overcome and succeed where others have not stagnation feels like death, and we are unwilling to compromise our integrity and settle for being average in any way. We are the backbone of any successful business and those who overlook our potential are doomed to a slow demise. We do work that truly matters aligns with our purpose, and in turn, we make our lasting mark on the world. We are the dreamers, doers, legends, and visionaries who are called to make our most meaningful contribution and love what we do.  Lindsay  00:42Welcome to the Career Design Podcast today. I am so thrilled with my guest, she calls herself a chief fun officer and we're gonna dive deep into this Rebecca, do you mind introducing yourself to my audience?  Rebecca  00:56No, I don't mind at all. Hi, everybody. I'm Rebecca Binnendyk and I am the new CFO, the Chief Fun Officer who doesn't need a chief fun officer in their life? Lindsay  01:06That was like that. So much more fun than the regular CFOs I know. I said to Rebecca when I first met her that we have a Chief Fun Officer here at Tom paradigm. She's seven and her name is Nora and she definitely has a lot of fun in spirit and that playfulness. So I want to know a little bit about the idea of how did you come up with Chief fun Officer and what did you see in businesses that made you realize that this was something that was missing? Rebecca  01:36Okay, so two, two questions there that I'll answer. So first of all, my entire life, I've been having fun. And you know, sometimes when we get older, we look back and we realized things about ourselves as we grow and develop personally. That's been really part of my growth journey. And in studying like neuroscience, and personalities, and all these things, I look back at myself, and I went, Holy smokes, I've been having fun my whole life, and not just frivolous fun, but fun, and taking risks, and doing things that people wouldn't do to have things that most people don't have, such as freedom and financial stability, and a career that I've designed that I love and that's always evolving. And it hasn't always been that way. But the choices I've made have been based on is that going to be fun, you know, is it going to be fun to fly to China, I don't speak a lick of Chinese but I'm going to go there. And that was at a very young age, you know, is it going to be fun to go down to Nashville and record my first album, and this was when I was, you know, in university and supposed to be doing a classical singing exam. Is it going to be fun to completely, you know, started a whole new company at 38 years old. Um, you know, it was all these things. And I just realized I was having fun. And if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. So I had a career in teaching as well. I taught on off as a school teacher for 10 years. And you know what it got to be, to the point where it wasn't fun. So this kind of answers your second question. The policies, the red tape, the I don't know, the people at work, who were just so bent out of shape, when you would do something different. And I didn't fit in, I realized that for simple things, like letting kids stand up in the classroom, when they were doing no harm was, you know, looked down upon. So I quickly saw that this wasn't an environment for me. And then on top of that, I was hearing the kind of trends in corporate and in business, because I have a lot of friends that were working in corporate. And you know, basically, the trend was, I want to quit my job. I don't like working incorporate. How do I become an entrepreneur like you because, at that point, I quit teaching and became an I've been entrepreneur kind of at the same time as teaching for many years. But I had finally gone out on my own fully and was running my own business. And people were like, how do I do that? So I was like, Well, why Why does everybody want to quit corporate? And you know, I did some, some research on that and just questioning and surveying people. And really what it boiled down to was the community and the culture in this corporate world completely lacked fun. Nobody was being appreciated. They felt like they couldn't be themselves at work. They always felt judged. They couldn't wait for the weekends, talk about weekends, teachers, like life for the weekends in the summers. I committed myself to never do that. Once I had finally quit teaching, I had a plan and I was kind of smart about it. But you know, it was like, Okay, I'm not going to live for the weekends and for the holidays. I want my whole life to be like a weekend and a holiday. I want to enjoy the people I surround myself and I want to be the one in control of that. And So I guess the trends were just that, yeah, people were quitting. And it was because of culture. And not just, you know, you know, companies have tried for many years to make things a little bit better, but they've really missed the point. And I can talk about that a little bit later, too. But that kind of summarizes, you know, okay, so I guess I didn't say why. So then becoming the CFO, I guess I got really passionate about people being in corporate and being able to do those kinds of jobs because I knew that not everyone could quit their job and become an entrepreneur. That's a very, very specific set of skills to be an entrepreneur that needs to be learned, and not everyone in the world is gonna be able to do it. So I was not, I was not content with the fact that the entrepreneurs were going to get to create and design their own lives and career. But all these other people we were going to leave behind in corporate, it's always gonna suck. So I just decided, how can we make this a better space in the corporate world, and, and I realized, you know, there are leaders and bosses that want to change the way they've done business and there are examples in our world, like big companies that are doing it, now they have big budgets, but I believe that you are capable of creating a positive, fun culture, even without a huge budget. So I believed that everyone could make these changes, and we could improve the lives of many, even if they wanted to stay in a nine to five job. Lindsay  06:37I love that so much. And I think that we have, there's so much untapped brilliance that people have at work. And when they are told to stay small stay in a box, here's your black and white job description, I call those cages for talent, that just stifle their genius, that we diminish the opportunity, and then no time called this, like the death of innovation. And we wonder why it's happening when people aren't encouraged to really be innovative or to be different. We want them to be, you know, drones. And I just think that's just a powerful mindset. So when you when you've seen because as you've gone into businesses and helped introduce fun, tell me what happens for those people. Rebecca  07:19So there's, there's probably two elements, I think, for one, it's the CEO. And they become Okay, so they have to have an open mind. To begin with, you can't even change the culture of a company unless your CEO or founders have an open mind to this kind of work. So two elements, one would be the owner, and the founder does some really deep work on themselves, and they become a leader. They aren't just the CEO, they're, they're becoming the person who is the example, they're getting vulnerable. I like to say like, take your hat off for a second, your CEO hat, and just be human, just be a person. And when CEOs do that, and when they start being vulnerable. And for example, I'll give you a great example of a gentleman that I know he was working with his company having a really tough weekend. So just so much stress, because he had to do this, this, this, his list was so long, and he had to finish all this by Monday. And he was doing it all by himself. And this was a conversation I had. So he's a colleague, but his son, who's 19 years old, said to him, Dad, why don't you ask the people at work to help you? Why don't you tell them you're struggling with this and get it done together? And this is coming from a 19-year-old, which leads me into a whole other conversation but great ideas from that generation. Right? This is something we've done kind of done wrong. We tried to segregate and these you know, the 50-60-year-olds don't get the 20-year-old the new-gen. But if we just tried for a second, listen to their ideas and learn from one another how different the culture would be but this son said to his dad, he said that, well his dad immediately there's fear that comes up, right? It kind of bubbles up in his stomach. I can't do that I can't do that. Like then it kind of is deeming me weak, or like I don't know what I'm doing. And then he got over that real quick. He went back to his workplaces team. This was during COVID. And he told them Hey, guys, I just want you to know, it's been a really tough day because I've been trying to solve this problem all day and I don't know what to do. Well, didn't they all just get on a call and figure it out together. And not only does that change, I mean that the person so the CEO got over his fear. Congratulations, hand clap for you. But also he brought in these other people with like you just said they have their own geniuses and their own problem-solving techniques and their own experiences that they bring to the table. So Now do they not only see their leader not as the boss, but now as a human being a vulnerable individual who's undergoing stress, and they relate to him, and they go, Oh, cool, how can I help? This is the kind of community and, and culture you create. And as a CEO, you kind of have to decide, do you want a team? Or do you want a hierarchy? And once you've made that decision, then you can move forward with the people who you're working with, because you're all just people and, you know, see yourself CEOs are not ready to hear that. But we are all just individuals, and we are all just trying to do our best. And if we just gave them the chance to do their best, how much more they will do, and bring to the table. Can I just say, you know what the full fun idea? It revolves around this idea of being more childlike. And when we are teaching our children, we teach them to ask for help. We teach them to raise their hand in class, ask questions, the more questions you ask, the more you will learn. And yet somewhere along the line, Lindsay, we just become adults, we cross into this, this threshold, where all of a sudden, we have to be strong, we have to be for women, we have to be in our masculine, we have to prove that we're right. We have to, you know, know, 100% of the job before we say yes to taking it. We're hesitant to take raises because well, I don't know if I'm worth it. Where did we cross this line? And so I go in, encourage people to be more like you were when you were a kid, you know, how much time? And how much more would you learn if you raise your hand once in a while? And how much more would the CEO learn if he raised his hand once in a while and asked the rest of the team. So team mentality. Lindsay  11:55I love that so much. It literally lifts my heart to hear somebody talk about that. Because there's I mean, there's I can cite so many different studies here about why, why this actually changes, but we get conditioned, like, there's actually a Bernie brown goes back, I think she calls it creativity trauma. And it happens when we start to condition and you might have seen this as well, like around fourth and fifth grade where a horse can't be you can't draw a horse and it can't have two heads and blue spots. It has to be exactly like a horse, it has to look exactly and we take that out, we take away the fun. And then we say, you know, behave, be small, like stay here in this lane. And we forget that we are all people, we are all we have all of these things. I mean, the greatest constraints I've seen inside of businesses is when somebody isn't seen for the ability to bring a new idea like industries are dying without these innovations. And people just like inherently, they want to have a contribution. That's a core human need. We want to make a contribution. We want to have significance, we want to feel like we matter. And being radically candid and vulnerable is a big part of that. And that means allowing people to step up and express things and to applaud them for that versus say, you know, you're being difficult or going against the grain because that actually helps disrupt what's groupthink and groupthink is those that series of Yes, men. And it's why companies get into that decline cycle. And so when we start to do these shifts, which is inviting fun at work, and I want to also go in like what fun really isn't, because I think we have some ideas around what fun looks like at work and how those things actually really don't do much. But when we tap into that when we start to be there are three parts when I say like intentional career design and true career design, when we get rid of human resources, we break it out. There are three pieces and the first one is the transcendent CEO and CEO's leadership. It has to come from the top of sponsorship to have a safe environment. Yeah, to be different. Yes, it no longer fit in a box then has to start at the top. Okay. And then the second part is about the environment that we cultivate, right? And so that people feel safe, and they feel like they can stand in their power. And we don't tolerate things like there's something I say one of the tenants of the human-centric workplace is the no asshole rule, which is from Harvard Business Review, no, no assholes. And these things that we just create this environment that allows collaboration. And then the last part is the intentional career design, which is really allowing people to tap into their zones of genius thinking of this one person had this one idea. I'll give you an example. There's one person who created Prime Day, there's one person who created prime shipping and they are not the most senior leader, guess what? They were someone at a lower level. One person's genius, you know how many billions of dollars that one idea and Every business have this and they actually marginalize their people, minimize them and diminish them and tell them to play small and just stop being difficult or stop being creative. We conditioned it out of them. And this is where we see the really innovative CEOs and the real transformative businesses, they're rising to the top because they've turned into this genius. And really, that culture of fun is a big part of it. So I want to ask you here, Rebecca  15:09So can I pick? Can I piggyback that, just let me piggyback that really quick, what you're saying there about people needing a space to be creative, and, and to give back. And on top of that, an environment where they can be excel. They everybody wants an environment in a workplace where they can excel, meaning they can go up another level, they can have more to their job than just their job, because that's just human nature to want something more. So if we're creative, we like I think what it boils down to is create an environment where employees want to be where relationships are built, where clients and customers want to buy because they'll want to buy more if they feel this energy, they feel this, this fun, this, oh, my goodness, the employees want to be here I want to buy from this company, where and then companies in the league, inevitably, will have increased profits, charities raise more money. You know, it's just like you said, there are so many studies showing that if if you are listening to this right now, and you're thinking, well, what's the bottom line? What's the bottom line you know about the money? Well, I think Lindsay and I are both here to say that the bottom line is that these companies thrive, beyond they become the leaders in their industry when they focus on their culture and focus on each individual. Lindsay  16:36Yes, Oh, my gosh, profitability is the measure. And so it's when we get but we that is a very, and I'm going to leave into this a very fragile masculine thing to go into what's the bottom line? And that actually, if you go through that and forget that people are people, you've missed the whole damn point of this conversation. Absolutely. Oh, when I talk about the most transformative CEOs out there, and they're at the point where they want to break in that next level that transcendence CEO, they're not focused, they understand there's a point where reach altruism where I've already achieved my accomplishments. Now, I want to help others do that. And that's where we really step into that true transcendent style of leadership. Okay, so what is fun not? Is fun your ping pong table? Rebecca  17:16Yeah, I can talk about this a little bit. Yeah, you know, you'll find with especially some specific industries, like, I'll just use the example of the tech industry. So tech industries, um, I don't want to stereotype but they tend to be more male, male-dominated. And I think if you go back if you... Lindsay  17:34I must gonna say, let's stereotype, because not stereotype study, guys, so yeah Rebecca  17:41Totally true, totally true, white, white guys, on their computers. And I think, you know, a number of years ago, when you know, culture, it's not a brand new thing, people have been trying to improve their culture. But what they've been doing, what we're seeing now is that it's not working. So you can't just put a ping pong table. And you know, in a common area, you can't just give them beer on Fridays, you can't do those kinds of things and expect that the entire culture of your company is going to change and your profits are going to increase, it just doesn't happen. Because people again, we go back to the top, if the leader is not showing vulnerability, and he's not showing he or she is not showing their true selves, then that does not encourage their employees to show their true selves. So if there's any kind of fear, so fear that I'm not doing a good enough job, I'm not working as hard as Mike over there at his desk, because now I'm playing ping pong, Oh, I can't do that. Because, you know, nobody else's, if there is that kind of feeling, then what you've just, you know, spend money on to kind of create this, you know, pretend environment that's positive, it kind of works against you. You know, and people still feel like they can't wait to get home and they don't care to stay after work, because they're not part of a team. They don't want to hang out with their colleagues, I can't wait to get home. Lindsay  18:58So that you said I lived for the weekends we live for, like our lives that really the things that are most important, our lives are typically not at work, but there are people who wake up excited, energized, motivated, they want to go to work because they get to make their best contribution. And one of the other things he talked about was here was variety. And variety is another key core human need when we have something it means we can't have people who stay in that black and white space because it is actually like we diminish the core things a human being needs to thrive. So if you're wondering what's happening here, like why fun brings in it allows you to feel significance allows you variety, and allows you to make a contribution. So those are three of the six core human beings. so freaking powerful. Rebecca 19:42Yeah. And I mean, like if people are wondering, you know, what's this big deal about fun? Well, think about this. You know, if you're a woman and you know, we're pregnant and you were worried about telling your boss that you're going to be having a baby and going on mat leave and now you're getting a cut and pay. Well, wouldn't it be fun if you could just bring your baby to work? Yeah, I know people out there go what that's a crazy idea. People are doing it CEOs are doing this and they're seeing huge benefits, not just for okay now mother at work Who's that who's see you know an industrial designer. Now, moms that work baby two, three-month-old babies are on her, you know, on our back or whatever and she's still working and able to do her stuff. As the baby gets a little bit older baby goes and is in a playpen. You know what, you know what happens in those environments, people in the office start signing up to have a baby break for 10 or 15 minutes so they can play with a child. This enlightens everybody in the office Not only that, you get your stakeholders walking into the offices, you get you, your clients walk into the offices, now there's a child there, and everyone's a little bit like, okay, what's going on here what's going on, but you know, the languages are cleaner, the, there's a lot more smiling, you know, you take another example, take a board room of say, you know, white men who are used to doing businesses, this the way that they've always done it, we'll give them a set of crayons, and take away all their pens. And now make your notes. Now, this is fun, this puts smiles on people's faces. And there is a science to this, that when people are happy, they are more productive, and they are more creative because the side of their brain that is on like pause because they're in such a driven like a gotta get this done profit, profit profit mode, they are actually not creative and innovative. So if you want your company to grow and thrive, and, and yeah, have increased, profits start having more fun. And you'll see the difference because people will want to come to work, people will start feeling like these are your friends you're going to work with these are people I'm working with not against, you know, which has been kind of like, Oh, I have to go to work. And Sally and sales is such a blip. You know, and it's like, oh my god, okay, now how can you get to know Sally a little bit better? So that you actually see that you're not that different? How can we create environments and opportunities for these people to join together? And maybe it's like, a project outside of work, where maybe you get together and you guys will talk about how are we going to give back and people are going to come to the table with ideas, I guarantee it. Because almost everyone in your office goes home. And they probably have a creative project. What I have found Lindsay is that a huge majority of people who have been in corporate are either a musician, they're an artist, they paint on the weekends, you know, I don't know, they make hot air balloons or something, they do something different that they have always loved doing but somebody that probably their mother or father told them you could never have a career in that. And so they went into their corporate job. So if we could incorporate the loves of people's lives into work somehow, in creative ways. Geez, now you're talking about a place people want to go wherever they're going to be motivated and they're going to be not just motivated, they're going to be dedicated to your company. And there you know, they're in lies the whole idea of keeping your top talent for a longer period of time and not wasting What is it in America 30 billion, or I don't know the quote, I don't know, the stat off the top my head. That's a lot of money that's wasted in training people and anybody out there including myself, that's trained anyone knows it takes a ton of time. And if you keep losing people, you're losing a lot of money. Lindsay  23:36Yeah, to the tune of at a professional higher level $50,000 is the average call average. Oh, yeah. Yeah, lose one person $50,000. And it becomes a C to rest the rest of your team because they have taken on the additional workload and then bringing on someone new also increases workload. So it's a terribly it's not a virtuous cycle. And if you can, right now in the world for talent, because it really is. There are ways to do so I love this. Rebecca, I feel like I want to continue this conversation with you on another podcast because so much here. There's so much to say that one like one last parting thought you would like to leave with our audience.  Rebecca  24:14Like you said, there are so many, so many things. So I guess I would just say it takes one to start making these changes. If you're it doesn't matter which level you're at. You could be a CEO listening to this right now a leader in the making somebody wants to make a change and who wishes and wants their workplace to be better. But you could also be somebody who was just newly hired, and you're bringing in new ideas and you're sitting there going, Yeah, this is totally me. I'm always getting like shut down or I don't feel like I don't feel safe in this environment to say anything. It starts with you. And I have been one of those people my entire life that speaks up. So speak up. And I guess Lindsay and I are here to Stand behind you in speaking up for something different. Because the more people that say something, the more change that will begin to happen and this will become more mainstream that work is actually no not so bad. Lindsay  25:15I love that. Thank you so much, Rebecca. And if somebody wants to find out more from you, where can they go? Rebecca  25:21My website if you can manage to spell my last name is Rebecca Binnendyk dot com. Yeah, there's lots of information on there and all my links are there. That's probably the best place I am on Facebook as well. But I'd say probably more on my website and feel free to get in touch anytime. Lindsay  25:37Thank you so much for being under days incredibly illuminating. And I'm sure we'll have a part two on this or maybe even more. Rebecca  25:44Thank you so much, Lindsay, for having me. You know, even Lindsay and I, we've just, you know, had some great talks about this. And I also encourage you to find somebody that is like-minded, surround yourself with like-minded thinkers. And from that place, you can only go high you can only fly from there. So thanks, Lindsay, for having me. Thank you so much.

California's Bay Area is one of the world's epicenters of design, but this is a fairly recent phenomenon. Prior to the 1980s, you had to travel to Paris, London, Milan, and New York to find good design. Suddenly, this region entered a golden design era marked by innovative collaborations, technology booms, and the emergence of a vernacular around design thinking. Now, nearly 40 years later, we have more design professionals in the Bay Area than anywhere else in the world. In this episode, Dan Harden examines the rise of design in the Bay Area with Author and Design Professor Barry Katz, including how design thinking changed the landscape of the Bay. Looking ahead, Dan and Barry speculate on how Bay Area design can continue to set the tone for the rest of the world. GuestBarry Katz, professor of Industrial and Interaction Design, California College of the Arts, and adjunct professor, Design Group, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Stanford University Episode TranscriptDan Harden 0:07Hello, and welcome to Prism. Prism is a design-oriented podcast hosted by me Dan Harden. Like a glass, Prism that reveals the color hidden inside white light, t his podcast will reveal the inside story behind innovation, especially the people that make it happen. My aim is to uncover each guest's unique point of view, their insights, their methods, or their own secret motivator, perhaps that fuels their creative genius. Today, I have the pleasure of being with a good friend of mine, Barry Katz . Barry is the professor of Industrial Design and Interaction Design at the California College of the Arts, an adjunct professor in the Department of Mechanical Engineering Design Group at Stanford University, Barry was also well, Barry has been working with the idea for the last 20 years as a fellow and general advisor, we're going to hear a little bit about his experience there. He's also the author of seven books, including most recently “Make It New, the History of Silicon Valley design” published in 2017, by MIT Press, and Barry's also working on a great new book called “Structure and Symbol for the Age of Data” which is about architecture and the Silicon Valley. Barry, thanks so much for coming on Prism. Glad to be here. I always love talking to you. You are a gem of a human. Or the the you know, you pretty much blew me away when you were one of the keynote speakers at a conference that I chaired back in 2002, as you remember, well. So this is a really great experience. So you know, you wrote this book that I read, because, well, I'm living in Silicon Valley, I've been a designer in Silicon Valley since 1989, and had experience working here even prior to that. So I was really fascinated by your perspectives on the history of design in the Bay Area. Maybe we could start by you giving us a general context, because my first exposure to the Bay Area was when I was seeing this extraordinary work being done, I would say in the early 80s. And I actually interned at HP, which is my first exposure around that time. But what was happening before that, how did we get to that point of inflection where design started to become relevant to technology. If we can start unpacking a little bit of that, that kind of historical perspective, because it sets the framework so well for what actually happened and how design flourished.Barry Katz 2:52So let's begin a little bit with what got me interested in taking a long historical look at how people like you ended up doing what people like you are now doing. In 2021, I was struck by a small gift sent to me by a mutual friend of ours I'm sure you know, Gerard Furbershaw are one of the cofounders of Lunar, one of the distinguished consultancies of the area. Gerard sent me a clipping from a 1979 Palo Alto telephone book, the Yellow Pages. And I apologize to readers, or viewers or listeners who have no idea what the yellow pages are business directory for these things that we used to call telephones. And this was a page from the business directory that listed every design consultancy in Northern California 1979. There were, if I remember correctly, nine of them and they were squeezed between detective agencies and diaper services. And of the nine, only one of them still exists, although not under the same name. In other words, design was absolutely not on the map as any significant part of what was important about this region. And the reason that that was interesting to me is today, I think I'd be prepared to argue that there are probably more design professionals working within 50 miles of where you and I are sitting right now than anywhere else in the world. So I got interested in the question, How did that happen? How did that happen in an extraordinarily, you know, basically in a generation. If you had asked almost anybody in that period, the late 70s, the early 80s. What are the important world centres of design? I think that there would have been a pretty easy consensus and you know, Dan, you could you could say a to Milan for furniture Paris for fashion. New York for graphics London probably for product design, you got to be Tokyo for electronics, LA for whatever they do down there, I have no idea. And if you would set the Bay Area, I think you would have been met with a blank stare, right? One of the older folks that I interviewed in my book who migrated out here for romantic reasons, I think he had to get away from a second wife or something like that, and tried to set up shop in San Francisco as an industrial designer in the late 60s, I think. And he said, anybody who would try to do that then should have his head examined. There was no client base, there were no colleagues, there was no system of suppliers and partners. It was an island, and now it's it's become the center. So I wanted to figure out how that happened. And I started scratching around the early 80s, when the big consultancies began to form, IDEO Lunar Frog where you, you and I first met, and I scratched a little bit further, and I found some activity in the decade prior to that, and I scratched a little bit further, and I found a few big companies that had an industrial designer on staff. And I kept scratching until I got back to I think it was August 7, 1951, when Hewlett Packard hired his first quote, unquote, industrial designer, and they gave him the assignment that I, I heard from any number of people that I spoke to, it was essentially “Can you stuff five pounds of shit into a 10 pound box,” that's a phrase that kept coming up. Or maybe it was 10 pounds into forgotten. So there were, there was some early stirring of activity in the post World War Two period. This is the time when Silicon Valley was just beginning to emerge as an important Tech Center, in electronics, in aviation and in defense, and a few companies Hewlett Packard, Lockheed, interestingly enough. And a company that is now almost defunct Ampex, which was, at one time the pioneer in audio recording, they essentially invented magnetic tape recording. They had small design groups, and that was about it.Their primary role of designers then was to package technology to put the work of engineers into a suitable enclosure that wouldn't offend anybody. And that wouldn't get into the in the way of having the things function. And then gradually, what I described is an expanding perimeter around the areas that designers could involve themselves in. And I think that I would say that the crucial moment in time, kind of metaphorically speaking, is when computing started to get small enough, cheap enough and fast enough, that it began to move from the back rooms of large organizations, onto the desktops of ordinary consumers. And that's where design is really in a position to add major value.Dan Harden 8:41Because people were used to consuming well designed products and other parts of their life. And maybe they didn't have an identity yet, right? I mean,Barry Katz 8:52No, I mean, the computer was this inscrutable refrigerator sized machine in the backroom of a bank or an airline or an insurance company or the Defense Department.Dan Harden 9:04There was one guy, you might remember Elliot Noise on the East Coast, as he designed those giant IBM computers. That was the first exposure that I saw to computers being designed. And then I was also seeing around that same timeframe, some amazing work done by Mario Bellini and Ettore Sottsass, as well as designing like, pre computers for all of it, you know, these were type machines and adding machines really cool stuff. I mean, they were giving true art and form to these devices that otherwise had no kind of functional bearing on anything we would understand unlike say, a mixer or a fan where there were required components, mechanical components, whereas these devices, even those early tech devices, they you know, they were early transistor based products, and you know, why should they look like what should they key look like? Given that you press a button on, you know, in a series of keys, should it look like a typewriter? Probably? Yeah, yeah. Those were an interesting transitional day.Barry Katz 10:10I'm really glad that you said that in that you put it in the way that you did, Dan, because everybody knows what a mixer does. Everybody knows what a hairdryer does. Everybody knows what a desk lamp does. Nobody in this period and again, you know, to the 1970s, nobody really knew what a computer was and what it was for. And as you look at the the proliferation of small companies that were exploring this terra incognita of personal computing, the big debate was, what is the machine? Is it a really, really fast typewriter? Is it a really, really powerful adding machine? Is it some kind of a communications device, and it was really uncertain. And, you know, now is familiar to practically everybody. And we use it for all of those things, and probably also has a hairdryer and a mixer and a desk lamp. But it was a technology in search of a definition of the category. So what I think is really crucial here is that when Elliott Noyes and some of the folks that you mentioned were designing, and I say designing sort of cautiously, they're doing the industrial design of large scale Business Machines. I don't want to put it too crudely. But engineers are not that concerned with the experience of the devices that you're working on. Okay, I say this with no disrespect, you know, in a way they have higher aspirations. But when a technology moves from the business world into the consumer market, functionality tends to be displaced by experience. I know that's a little bit of a cliche, but you're less concerned with the inner workings and how the thing works. And more concerned, not simply with superficial aesthetics, but with the experience that you're having in using the device, so the product or the software. And that is the points where design really comes into the picture is something more than what you're so familiar with the Henry Dreyfus or the Elliot Noyes model, of form and function of using industrial design to make something more attractive and accessible.Dan Harden 12:39I think part of that is the consumers have an expectation that whatever purpose, this new product that has been proposed for them to purchase, whatever that purpose is, you want to deliver to you quickly, we have impatient minds, right? We want that designed to deliver and so it's got to stimulate me in the way that it looks that has to communicate to me in an intuitive manner, and then it has to deliver on its functionality. Scientists or researchers that were using those giant computers back then they didn't have that expectation. It was purely functional, although, remarkably, even companies like IBM realized, wait a minute, there's, there's a culture in this technology, we need to represent it not. I don't think they were necessarily trying to sell more computers with design, you know, back then, I think they were proud of what they were doing. And they they were they wanted to kind of show off they're like, “Hey, you know what, these are remarkable machines,” Let's let's do this, right? Let's build some culture and maybe even a sense of art and what they were building.Barry Katz 13:48I'm also really glad that you, you mentioned some of the European companies that were kind of pioneering the sort of thinking you know, Olivetti created a machine called the Performa, which some people have argued, is really the first desktop computer and had a comprehensive corporate wide design strategy, as did Philips, a small number of other European companies. And if I am not mistaken, they had a tremendous influence on your generation of American designers. So at exactly the moment that we were trying to figure out what is this new thing that we're dealing with, and we're still trying to figure that out, you know, 40 years into the story of computing. People were, to a large extent taking their cues from some of the radical solutions being proposed in Europe and gradually incorporating them into their thinking. Apple's the clear example, that's how Apple really got started.Dan Harden 15:00Do you know but before we talk about Apple because um, you know, they're the monolith here, right? So in, in the space of design and technology, when I was when I was in school, I remember it's so well, like the very top,the paragon of like design for me was the work that was being done by Olivetti. There was something about those expressions. I felt that they were, they were beyond product to me, they weren't they were something truly extraordinary. They touched the Abyss in some way that just made me think as a designer, “Wow, I can do anything as a designer” because there really, prior to the existence of this early technology. There was no reference, there was no vernacular for what technology should look like. Right. So unlike if you're designing a chair, you know, how many 1000s of years that we need to go back to, to see the vernacular of a chair. So that compelled me to push myself and I was designing even in school, it's hilarious. I was doing like Olivetti esque kind of things. I was just so influenced by that I really loved. Yeah, that technology. And that's what led me to want to even work for HP back then. You'll find this interesting because you teach at Stanford. I went to this Stanford design conference, and the speaker was this young man, that was the CEO and founder of this new computer company called Apple and they had just gone public. And there was Steve Jobs up on stage pontificating about technology, and he was using the word design. I was like, in the, you know, the back of the audience and designed did he just say design. You know, as I was super excited about that at lunchtime, I'll never forget this. We all got our cafeteria trays. During this conference, Steve Jobs came out, we're all sitting outside, he looked around the lawn, and I guess he selected the youngest group or something I was sitting among like, eight of my peers at HP. l came in he chose us to sit down next to he sat down, took his shoes off, of course, right. He was famous for being barefoot all the time in his younger days. And he just, I wish I could say we had a discussion, but no, he pretty much continue to talk at us about technology and design, the importance of design, I realized I had a sense, although I didn't have the knowledge or the foresight necessarily to know where this was all gonna go. But I believed that he truly felt a sense about the importance of design especially and its incorporation into product. And yeah, it I think it catapulted me even further, in my own personal thinking about like, Man, I've got to, I have to do some killer work here at HP. And I'm really intrigued by this notion of technology and design. Years later, I worked with him. But that to me was kind of the turning point. You mentioned a turning point in the Bay Area. His emergence as Apple's emergence as a force, especially when he hired Frog Design, during that time period in the early 80s, that, to me was the seminal moment. Let's talk about that. Because everything you know, when you mentioned a few of the companies that were considering in hiring one or two designers in the Bay Area at that time. Here's a company a new technology companies, young, exciting, brash company, Apple, that reaches out to design firms in the worlds he finds this company in Germany, and in the Black Forest. Althengstett right it was super cute little tiny village in the Black Forest. Now, how he actually found them. I've heard stories about it, you know, when I was there, but that is an extraordinary time period. I remember one other point and I wanted your perspective on this. Right after my internship, at HP, I ended up graduating and going to Europe with a portfolio on my back. And one of the companies that I went down to have an informational interview was Frog Design. And the founder of Frog Design, Hartmut Esslinger interviewed me and at the time, he said, this is like 1982 he said,“Dan, we just met this crazy guy in the Silicon Valley named Steve Jobs. Do you heard about him? Do you know much about him?” Like oh, well, I just I just heard him at this this Standford design conference. So yeah, I know him you know, quote unquote, and I'll never forget that moment because he said, we're thinking about doing some work with him, and what what do you think? And you know, would you eventually like to come help on this we really like your portfolio. Could you come help us in California? I thought, wow, this is this firm in this in the Black Forest is willing to make this leap across continents to go design for this crazy guy named Steve Jobs.Barry Katz 20:28And I hope you told Hartmut to make sure that he got paid in advance.Dan Harden 20:34I don't think you have a problem getting paid by Apple at that time, you know, that became legendary how much of a retainer they got, you know, to design these products at that time. But there were all kinds of things happening not only, you know, Apple with with frog, but another gentleman named Bill Moggridge comes over. Tell us about that, and your perspective on this the shift, the big shift was this, in my opinion, was kind of that this euro invasion into the Silicon Valley when a lot of industrial designers from Europe keyed on to the fact that there's something interesting going on here in technology in the Silicon Valley. And they wanted to be a part of it.Barry Katz 21:18Yeah, I think it really has to be understood as a global phenomenon as part of a global wave, and we're still in it. And the wave is now moving back and forth across the Pacific just as 40 years ago, it was moving back and forth across the Atlantic, mostly forth, I would say. Apple is a key player in the story. I don't want to romanticize it. But I would never want to minimize it either. I mean, I will often say would you have bought a computer from a company founded on April Fool's Day and named after a piece of fruit. And when I said, you know, make sure you should have told her to make sure we got paid in advance. I personally know and i think you know, a couple of these folks to Dan. But I personally know three people that were approached by Steve Jobs in the late 70s, and turned him down. Here's another guy, another one of these guys, in jeans and barefoot or, you know, his Birkenstocks. With his vision of something, rather. And if I'll just do the work on spec, the gold will come pouring into my checking account. And I'm not joking here or exaggerating, I literally know three people who throw them out. They are not happyabout that.But Apple, I think has to be, I'll get to Moggridge in a moment, but Apple has to be understood as being in the right place at the right time led by the right person, as difficult as that right person was. in other respects, I don't think we can take anything away from him. To put that in a little bit of perspective, in that period, '76 '77 '78, I can think of about a dozen companies that were competing to bring a personal computer to the market to the consumer market, you have never heard of 11 of those 12. And the 12th is now a trillion dollar company. And at any given week, the most valuable company in the world. So when a company has a profile of that stature, and defines itself as being designed driven, and every other company in the world is going to take notice at their or ignore it at their peril. So the importance of Apple, not just in creating, you know, new generations of innovative products and all of that, which is a cliche, the importance of Apple for giving priority to design at the executive level. That's pretty new in American corporate history, not entirely unprecedented. But at that scale, it was just a new phenomenon. What I would say about Apple in terms of its importance for the story that you are trying to get down is once it became clear that a high quality experience was going to be essential to making this new generation of tech products successful. Steve began to explore design talent around the world. And there were plenty of American designers who are a bit miffed by this, but he conducted his search in the UK, in Germany as you said frog, the company that became frog, the star designers and Italy and in Paris. And he narrowed it down through a competition that became known as the Snow White competition to design a personal computer Snow White, and seven peripherals, the Seven Dwarfs. That competition was ultimately won by the small firm that you referred to. And that used to work for Esslinger design in the Federal Republic of Germany F-R-O-G. And the condition that jobs imposed upon it was that they moved to Silicon Valley, and at least establish an outpost here. So Hartmut Esslinger, moved Esslinger Design to Silicon Valley became frog Design. And the larger importance of that, I think, is that it was really Apple that began to engage this small community of tech oriented design professionals, who are starting to spill out of Stanford arriving from London and Germany and a few other places. And that would ultimately give rise, excuse me, to the major consultancies, which became the defining identity of Silicon Valley design. And they're the ones that, you know, the company that became IDEO, the company that became frog, Lunar, and now less than a second and a third, and now a fourth generation of companies that are at this point, almost beyond counting.Dan Harden 26:39I, you know, I find this to be so fascinating, that whole the evolution of the whole design industry in the Bay Area, and in that regard, starting at that moment, that transcendent moment in the early 80s, where it just came alive Suddenly, I remember prior to joining frog, so you know, even though I talked to Hartmut about about him meeting jobs, and being a part of this Snow White program, I was aware of it. I had gone to Dreyfus in New York City in the meantime. And when I was there, I saw the first Snow White examples coming out, of course, and I saw on the back page of it magazine. Yeah, Apple to see it was that particular design that made me think something is going on here. I really should be a part of this. Yep. And that's when I reached back out to Hartmut. And he basically said, “Hey, man, where have you been? Come on, let's come out to California right away.”Barry Katz 27:42If I could, if I could jump in and just add one more gloss onto this whole thing. And that is there's an old story of companies, hiring designers to improve their products. That's sort of the the history of design and in this country, and it's a great history. What happens very rarely is designers being the opportunity to keep being given the opportunity to design not just a new product, but a new product category, and to create a language for it, and to figure out what is this thing all about. So if you were asked to improve last year's toaster, and you know, give us next year's toaster, you look back at last year and the year before and the year before that there is a language of toasters, and you run with it. But if you are asked to design a mouse, the patent for the mouse was called the x y position indicator. So somebody walks in and asks you to design an X Y position indicator for him. Where do you start? You don't look at last year's model, because there was no last year's model, or a modem or even like a digital answering machine or something like that. They are entirely new product categories. And the opportunity to do that does not come very often. And what really defined the design profession, I think, in Silicon Valley, argue with me, if you like, is this ongoing challenge to designers of giving form and language to entirely new product categories?Dan Harden 29:22Yes. In addition, giving an identity and a personality to something that otherwise is purely represented by the software that you might see on the screen.Barry Katz 29:36Yeah, yeah.Dan Harden 29:37So it's really it's true conception, if you will, you know, it's like, Okay, well, it's blue sky design, you have to you know, you're you sit there sometime to scratch your head, like, well, how can I record and I do I do this now, you know, like, how can I represent this very unusual, abstract technology that you know, it takes even my design team, it might take months to figure out even how some of this stuff works. I mean, we're doing like CRISPR technologies. And, yeah, human genome sequencing. And I think that that's another thing about the Bay Area, you get exposed as a designer to some remarkable innovation. And you're asked to give it a face, give it give it an identity and make that identity by the way, approachable, friendly, sometimes warm, almost always intuitive. And make it exciting enough that it makes an impact on demand for the product. at its best design does that. But yeah, you're right. I mean, especially, you know, using Apple again, is that example, and even other companies picked up on that, you know, the car companies saw what Apple did with a line of products, whereby each individual product was making a suggestion about its values, and that other siblings in the product line also had those values, yes, which builds trust, because you will automatically assume if the quality is imbued in the product that I currently have in my hand, or sitting on the desk in front of me, I make the assumption that the company that is offering me that is also making other fine products. And that notion hadn't really been expressed in a manner that was so clear, as far as like, especially sibling likenesses and languages, you know, car companies were making an individual, you'd see a Camaro. And then you'd see a Mustang, they were all very, very different. Even companies, you know, looking at, you know, Ford, all of their cars look very, very different. There was no such thing as a design language. So yeah, I would say that one of the roots of Bay Area design was just that giving a broader expression of what a complex system might look like and how it should work.Barry Katz 32:11Yep.Dan Harden 32:12What else was it about what designers were doing, in your opinion, around that time, and even up into the 90s. And even now, that makes Silicon Valley special?Barry Katz 32:30I think the key thing, Dan is, in the kind of popular imagination, Silicon Valley is a whole lot of tech companies. So as you read about, you know, the war between Washington and Silicon Valley now, where Europe and Silicon Valley over issues of privacy and data, sequestering and all of that, the kind of unspoken assumptions that Silicon Valley is a vast agglomeration of high tech companies. In fact, I think it is much more accurate and meaningful to understand it as an extremely complex ecosystem. In some I know, that's a sort of a cliche term, but it's something like the biological sense, in which an ecosystem operates as a series of inter interdependent components, each of which influences the other. And the interest that I have. And I think you have here is how design became an integral part of that ecosystem. So when I think ecosystem, I think, sure, the tech companies Apple, Facebook, Hewlett, Packard, Lockheed, and video, and all of the others that are household names. But we also need to think about the venture capital industry that feeds money into it's about half of the VC investment in the United States in any given quarter is invested in this little piece of real estate where we have the either good luck or misfortune to live with depending on whether you own your house or not. A legal infrastructure, so firms began to develop an expertise in an aspect of corporate law that had to do with funding and setting up startup companies. On the basis of you might have heard the phrase opium addicts, an addiction to other people's money. So IP law protection, early stage corporate law, the universities, so we have Stanford, Berkeley, and then approved as the major research institutions, but then places like San Jose State, which is not sufficiently recognized as a factor but the mission of the state universities in California is to serve the local population, local companies and to provide educational opportunities for Local people, which is not what Berkeley or Stanford are about, right, by definition. So San Jose State and a few others, began to contribute talent into the tech community design talent as well as engineering talent. And then you know, places like CCA where I teach in art school, and half a dozen other specialized artists institutions in the region. So you've got the tech companies, academia, legal infrastructure, the financial infrastructure, and then the piece that was missing in all of that is design. And when Apple in particular, and then a growing number of other companies began to make serious investments into building design into their operations, hiring. This gaggle of Stanford graduates that became IDEO hiring, this agglomeration of European designers showing up at frog hiring these peculiar mix of engineers and designers at lunar, we begin to see the formation of a professional design consultancy world that became an integral piece of the silicon; and I would say, a defining piece of the Silicon Valley ecosystem. And that is, I think of inestimable importance in understanding how Silicon Valley worked. Because it's not, it's not simply about laboratory science or bench engineering. It's about making products that are accessible, interesting, affordable, and exciting. And that, again, is where design has specific value to add.Dan Harden 36:54Why is it that the public doesn't seem to really understand that? When you think about Silicon Valley, you think about technology, think about software, you think about invention, and innovation by companies like Facebook, Google, of course, apple, and many, many others, all these different startups. But it's often design that is, is the vehicle, it's carrying these messages forward, the values, the experience that is making this a wonderful, whether you're looking at the UX of a Google product, or even products, you know, like, Oh, my gosh, almost any medical device, scientific equipment, fitness equipment, computing, you know, the list goes on and on.Barry Katz 37:41Yeah, we are more commonly aware of design when it fails, when it's bad, when something doesn't work the way you want it to, whether it's the chair that you're sitting on, or the microphone that you're speaking into. But yeah, I mean, most people, including the person you're talking to right now, as very little idea of how computer works. You know, I've read books about and we sort of don't care. And I mean that in actually pretty serious way. People love to compare their phones, but more often, you know, they're actually people will spend more time choosing the case of their mobile phone and then deciding between, you know, models. And I don't mean that in a trivial sense, what I'm trying to get at is the idea that we are coming to understand that the technology is now pretty dependable. It's extraordinary. I mean, I have a little Miata, okay, the Mazda sports car. The idea that, and I drove it for 18 years, and in 18 years, I repaired the I replace the radiator, that was the only significant repair I ever did on that car. And the idea some generation before that, that your sports car would not spend half of its adult life from the shop. I'm thinking so the technology, the point I'm making the technologies are very dependable now. And they're also inscrutable. And we kind of don't want to know what's under the hood or behind the screen or beneath the keyboard. We want to know what it's doing that is relevant to the task that I am now trying to perform.Dan Harden 39:36That's one reason why design has become a household name is because maybe in the past, we talked about design, so much history of technology, the introduction of the technology, the absorption and the issues that we all had with technology as that became a little bit more resolved and design became more well revolutionary and revolutionary at the same time. It's now something that we we can relate to. And therefore we talk about, because everything else is the technology is working.Barry Katz 40:10And it should be emphasized, no disrespect is intended toward engineers, hardware or software engineers. Quite to the contrary, if they hadn't done such a damn good job of building reliable, efficient and ever faster, cheaper and smaller products, then we wouldn't be focusing on this experiential level on the human level. So it's their credit, to their credit that designers have moved into a position of increasing prominence. And this is pretty new, and it's still happening, it is a work in progress. But, you know, when I started teaching, I would hear from my students from alumni of my courses, who went to work in tech companies, again, and again, and again, the engineers won't listen to us, they won't take us seriously, they won't give us the time of day, they'll hand us something, once all of the key decisions have been made. And you know, that phrase that you probably heard way back when make it pretty, put it in the box, and all that, yeah. And that's just no longer really the case. There's still a lot of uncertainty about what designers do and how they do it, and why they make the decisions they make. But I remember a conversation with Doreen Lorenzo, who was the CEO of frog after Hartmut Esslinger stepped down, in which she said, “a design strategy is now as important as a business plan.” And most companies, whether it's because Apple hit the trillion dollar mark, or for whatever reason, most companies now recognize that designers need a seat at the table earlier on in the process, then, you know, at the end of the day, if I can use an image that really appeals to me, I had a conversation with the chief designer at Tesla, Franz von Holzhausen. And I asked him what was different about being a designer at Tesla, the chief designer, Chief Product officer, in fact, and in his previous jobs, he worked at Chrysler before that, and but what he said to me is that the typical pattern in the auto industry had been that design was a link in a chain and important link. And you know, a chain doesn't work if one link is broken. But it was a link in a chain that connected r&d to engineering, to design style, to marketing figure out how to sell it. And what he told me was at Tesla, we are not a link and a chain, it's more like the hub of a wheel. We are present at the beginning of any discussion about at the highest level of the product definition. And it's really our job like the hub of a wheel, think of the spokes connecting the aeronautical engineers who are concerned about the airflow over the hood, the mechanical engineers who are working on drive train the electrical engineers that are working on the Panasonic battery pack, marketing, and it's actually designed that is connecting all of those parts from the beginning of the the development process to the end of it. And that is something that is pretty new in the auto industry and has had an impact because of the extraordinary success of Tesla, throughout the industry. And it's also a pattern that I think you can see in other industries as well.Dan Harden 44:01You know, I from as a consultant, I've seen this pattern evolving and taking shape over the last, especially the last 10 years, you know, where designers have are sitting right up there with, you know, the CEO, the operations, marketing, engineering, of course, I think because they realize that, because design is kind of the the binding element between all of these departments, you know, because design just infiltrates your marketing, your messaging, certainly the engineering and the production and all the way right down to supply chain management. We're, I think the enlightened companies had figured this out. And part of that is because they realize that, that the consumer is actually making decisions based on what's right for them. What they can identify with. How is addressing my particular problem and design has has just become, it's the communication tool for the company to bring forth those messages to beliefs that they actually build into their products, hopefully, it's good to hear that the car companies are coming around, they've been a little bit slower at this, partly because the timeframe to develop a car so it, you know, would typically go from r&d and safety concerns to engineering and then ultimately, the styling department and then tooling, it just takes a long time toBarry Katz 45:33five years minimum.Dan Harden 45:34Yeah, yeah. But when you're designing and developing these consumer electronics, or computing products, or even scientific goods, like we do, it's the consumption pattern. It's very fast.Barry Katz 45:49Yep.Dan Harden 45:49So design, really, I think it has to have a seat at the table early on for the whole process to work.Barry Katz 45:59Which raises an interesting question that will be very relevant to you, and your line of work. And that is the relation between the internal design groups within companies, which are having growing prominence, and external consultants, such as Whipsaw. And there has been some speculation in the pages of Fast Company and a few other magazines, that the consultancies may be a victim of their own success in making the case that design is important. So companies, healthcare, automotive, consumer, electronics, food and beverage, everything, have heard the message and are building their own internal design teams.Dan Harden 46:45You know, I keep hearing about this. And, you know, people have asked me, is this a threat? or something, you know, to the existence of, you know, it becomes like, an existential question. I think it's all nonsense. You know, rising tide raises all the ships, and, you know, great corporations are hiring more designers, they're also hiring more consultants. We are seeing a lot of consulting firms, especially in the Bay Area being bought out.Barry Katz 47:11Yeah.Dan Harden 47:12And yeah, and, you know, we're one of the remaining private ones. Sometimes these firms lose their identity or their Verve, their passion. I'm not sure what it is. What happens when you get absorbed in a big corporation like that? No. But individuals that have a vision that that want to be independent, there's still room for for those kinds of consultants to I mean, we were showing a increase in business, not a decrease.Barry Katz 47:43Yeah.Dan Harden 47:44I just love the fact that almost every company that even the startups, some of the first people that they hire are designers.Barry Katz 47:52Yeah.Dan Harden 47:53UX ID, graphic design, identity branding. It's so essential. And it's if you don't, it's just a huge missed opportunity. Like, why wouldn't you if it if it will more likely make you successful? Why in the world, wouldn't you?Barry Katz 48:11Yeah, when I started working on my book on “Silicon Valley Design, Make It New,” I began with an approach that any responsible author would take, okay, this is a book about Silicon Valley design, defined Silicon Valley and defined design. And I couldn't do it. You know, Silicon Valley is a state of mind that extends from Lucas Ranch, north of the Golden Gate Bridge to the Santa Cruz Mountains, and design. I mean, there are designers that work on intricate internal mechanisms of surgical robots, and their designers that work on the aspirational lifestyle experience of preteens, yeah, and everything in between. So I made the decision in that work to stop trying to define it in advance and then fill in the pieces, but rather simply look at what people are doing. And allow a definition both of the region and of the professional practice to emerge out of that, that that is intended to endorse what you just said about the consultancies versus the internal corporate groups versus the one person studio when the boutique group. It's an extraordinary range. And the other piece of that that I'm finding breathtakingly interesting is not just the proliferation of different ways of being a designer, you use the term existential there I like it, but also an expanding perimeter around the types of problems that designers are being called upon, or demanding or right to participate in the these the famous wicked problems Which are no longer?Dan Harden 50:02No, that brings me, sorry to interrupt, but it brings me to the whole trend of design thinking and the fact that so much of that started in the Silicon Valley, and that will most certainly be one of the legacies of our time. Right. And, you know, I think that I do really push that forward, even though I get I think most designers like myself would even say, Well, what do you mean design thinking that to me, when I started hearing about design thinking theory, I was like, Well, wait a minute. We've been doing this for a long time. Yeah. So what's your perspective on that? And is that one of the legacies of the Silicon Valley design thinking?Barry Katz 50:42Yeah, I think it absolutely is. Another book that I worked on with Tim Brown, who is the former CEO of IDEO is called “Changed by Design.” And it, I have to say, it really introduced the idea of design thinking to the business community, in a big way about 10 or 12 years ago. We just did a 10th anniversary edition of it. Design Thinking is widely maligned, it is widely misunderstood. And it is the fault for that lies mostly with its own practitioners, I think more than with is slander from the outside, Do tell. So if you look up design thinking, I sometimes do this little exercise in workshops of asking people to do a google image search for design thinking. And what you'll see is this blaze of little diagrams with hexagons, or circles or recursive loops or triangles, it's much more complicated than any electrical engineering drawing of a circuit. And it's very unfortunate, because they tend to try to reduce it to a methodology. As I say, it's something like Alcoholics Anonymous, it's an 11 step process. And at the end of it, you're clean, you know, you turn the crank, you do some prototyping, some brainstorming, some user observations, and whatever, you turn the crank five times and-Dan Harden 52:09Our clients that asked for it, expect something to pop out on the other end, is somebody an extrusion process, and, and boom, there's your solution. And it will be successful. Because we use this design thinking process.Barry Katz 52:23Somebody at IDEO told me that a client walked in and said, I want you to give me the iPod of meat. So the way I prefer to think about design thinking is not as a methodology, but as a philosophy as a way of thinking about problems. And I will often reduce it to two pretty simple formulations. The first is that there is no problem that cannot be thought about as a design problem. And I mean that quite seriously, you know, you're having problems with your kids, how we could design or think about this problem, because at the end of it, or behind it. There are strategic decisions being made that you might not even be aware that you're making. And perhaps you should revisit those in a way that a designer might revisit why your product is not successful in the market, or why it's not functioning the way everybody expected to, or why people are using it in completely different ways than was intended. So my you know, when my 90 year old mother used to wrap a dish towel around the handle of her refrigerator, because it was a lot easier for her to pull the dish towel than to get her arthritic fingers behind this beautifully designed chromium plated to our handle that some jerk at, you know, wherever thought looked cool. That's an unintended use. And it causes it will hopefully provoke a designer into rethinking why something is not used correctly. Whatever correct means. The other piece of it if piece number one is there's no problem that cannot be approached as a design problem.Dan Harden 54:11By the way to interject, I think that design because it's you know, at the fundamental level design is about solving a problem. Yeah, and one could even say that life is basically a string of problems that need to be solved. We go about this every single day, almost every move you make you're trying to solve a little micro problem, you might not even consider it to be a problem. But if you step back and look at things quite openly the way you just described, yeah, almost anything can be can be solved. Well, you might not get to a solution, but you can use a process to help you get closer to a solution.Barry Katz 54:46And it's a big mess because there is almost if it's a serious problem, a problem really worth spending your time on. There is not going to be one right answer to it. There will be multiple possibilities and there will be unanticipated impacts. I often demand of my students that they learn to think in an anticipatory way to solve not just the problem that's in front of you, but solve the problem that will be created by your solution. That's so Henry Ford solve the problem of internal combustion. I think he also should have solved the problem of traffic jams and parking tickets. What would it have looked like if he had thought beyond the problem in front of him to the problems that would be created by his solution. And right now, the stakes of a mistake are so catastrophicly high, I mean, we are changing the climate of planet Earth, think about that. The stakes are simply too high not to be thinking that way.Dan Harden 55:44Yeah.Barry Katz 55:45And that leads me if I may, to the second piece of my reformulation of design thinking, if the first pieces of it is there's no problem, we can't be addressed as a design problem. The second is, you don't have to be a designer to think like one. And that does not take one bit away from the mastery, that professional designers such as yourself, have acquired in the trenches. And with the battle scars to prove it. It's simply means that well, not simply, but it means a number of things, one of which is you as a lawyer, as a physician, as a primary school teacher can learn to practice some of those skills and learn when to hire a professional, and to work with that professional in ways that might not previously have been possible or even imaginable. So that's really what I think is at stake in design thinking,Dan Harden 56:45yeah, I liked it, it has really kind of opened up the minds of a lot of, especially like marketing teams, within corporations and clients of ours. Sometimes, that it's almost like a little too much awareness that they have acquired, where they're like, wait a minute, we can do what you do, too. Now, I'm hearing a lot of that, like, Oh, I took a design thinking course. So we want to come in and brainstorm with you and our ideas are as good as yours.Barry Katz 57:11Yeah.Dan Harden 57:12Rarely is that the case. But you know, we're always open. It's, it should be a process whereby there's lots of collaboration and respect and all that. But there's a massive lack of knowledge, you know, in most cases. So how can we reconcile that? How can we have these, these highly aware, thoughtful clients, but still giving them the type of advice and consulting and education that they so desperately need? Well, it'sBarry Katz 57:43a big question, obviously. I mean, look, I brush my teeth twice a day, and I still go to the dentist, when I need to go to the dentist. And I would not think of putting a crown on a wisdom tooth by myself, or a root canal, crazy. But that does not mean that I should not take some responsibility for my own dental hygiene. And if I were a corporate executive, take some responsibility for my design hygiene. That does not mean I have to be one, it means I have to know what they do. Designers how to work with them, how to smooth out tensions among various business units functional or geographical or whatever. So that designers are working effectively with marketing teams, with engineering teams, with product teams. And all of the rest of that is part of I never really thought of using the term design hygiene before but it popped into my mind.Dan Harden 58:48I think it works. The key is it puts the onus back on the designer to help guide that process.Barry Katz 58:56Yeah, I think that's fair to sayDan Harden 58:58because with as this new awareness about design thinking, I can tell you once a week, I have to tell a client but the drill down, step away from the chair. We got this.Barry Katz 59:13Yeah.Dan Harden 59:17This is a new trend, or clients suddenly know how to design their own products. Of course, they usually don't. And that's okay. But I like the fact that they at least are trying these soon realize because they have an interest in it. And they're they're now attuned to it. That they can see that sometimes the pains that we have to go through to solve a problem. This is not easy. It's designed as a difficult profession. What you have to go through to find your solution to test it to evaluate it to to be brave enough to say you know what all the assumptions that we made in the last two or three months are wrong You have to start over. It takes guts,Barry Katz 1:00:03yep. time, money and all of the rest. And the way to do it is, you know, it's not, you know, take a three day design thinking workshop, learn the methodology, and then allocate a space full of whiteboards and Sharpies to your new crop of design educated employees. Because I have so often gone back to companies that have done this, and, you know, they're sitting around in this allocated dedicated space and scratching their heads is like, Can somebody remind us what we're supposed to be doing? We have,Dan Harden 1:00:39Right. I'm interested in in it is a slog. And, but I'm really interested in how we're going to evolve this thing called design thinking. And I like the fact that we have opened it up, the whole process has become much more collaborative, your client feels like they are part of a process now. But I think we need to, we need to flesh it out more, we need to give it more body, we need to give it more means of expression. And to it needs to be jolted out of these stereotypes about what design thinking is. One technique that I've been using with clients is, I'll say, let's talk about design seeing, and that kind of stops them in their tracks right away. And I realized that seeing is so far beyond what looking at something, it's about observation, it's about perception, it's about adopting a new way of thinking and feeling about something, I find that we're able to get to the heart of the matter even a little faster when you again, introduce this a new concept about how to solve a problem. And whatever your method is, as a designer or a team. That's really what the objective is, is to take some time to a new level, a new place, explore. And I mean, that to me was is a real definition of innovation, where you're going somewhere new, it's just, you know, a new frontier, it's hard to get to it, there's no secret methodology, we're all a little bit different, I think, to be able to recognize it as a team, when you were on the cusp of something. That's when the real joy of this whole design process to me becomes just yeah, so much more exposed.Barry Katz 1:01:54That's really nice. George Nelson, who is one of as you know, one of the real pioneers of American design, and is at the helm of the Herman Miller company, one of the great design driven companies in the US.Dan Harden 1:02:41I know it well. I worked with George,Barry Katz 1:02:43yeah. He wrote a book, I forgotten the exact title, but design is seeing or design as a way of seeing or how to see like a designer or something like this. And he was very much interested as he was in that period decades ago. In the visual, you know, what a designer sees when he or she walks down the street or enters into a grocery store. And I think that what you're getting at now is that it's more than simply the optic nerve being stimulated. But seeing possibilities, and that's just seeing forms, it's seeing opportunities, seeing, really seeing beyond the present. And I would like to think that companies that hire designers are hiring. sure they're hiring a set of skills, they're hiring a body of experience, but they're also hiring somebody who will think differently than than they do. I think beyond the the status quo in which they're operating, and it involves a risk. I mean, it's a money risk, it's a time risk.Dan Harden 1:03:52It's a personal risk that comes to the heart of what consulting is all about. To be able to go to an outside source to get a different perspective, a new way of seeing something. And that oftentimes just shakes one's reality in a way that makes them think, okay, there is a different possibility. So, absolutely moving beyond design thinking and even introducing other forms of how you go through this very difficult process of taking something from nothing to something. Let's talk about like, what, how have designers added value in this whole Silicon Valley story? I mean, in a way, I kind of feel like the Silicon Valley, we're living in a Renaissance period, right technology, the birth of different technologies, and in giving technology, the expression, I think one could say that's one of the legacies of designers, you know, in the Silicon Valley. But where do you see like, Where, where have we made these biggest contributions and Is it? Yeah? Is it humanizing the technology? Is it giving it the kind of warmth and the friendliness that everyone seems to crave.Barry Katz 1:05:09And I remember when our mutual friend the late Stephen Holt used to tell us it's the Renaissance, and they're handing up the marble. Get in line.Dan Harden 1:05:22Yeah.Barry Katz 1:05:25I think that what's happening is, again, it's part of the historical process. And I don't want to get too deep into into history, which is more interesting to me that it is to most other humans. But what has been happening, of course, in the world of technology pioneered in Silicon Valley, let's face it, it's Moore's law in action. Products have been getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Processing speeds have become faster and faster and faster. The idea that you could be sitting with a computer on your desktop was unimaginable in 1980, that you could be holding it in your hand or resting it on your lap, in 1990, that you could be wearing on your wrist in 2000, that you could be having computer processing power worn in the form factor of a wedding ring, or the next stage, I'm pretty sure it's going to be implantable. As a consumer product. What does all this mean? You and I are both old enough to remember when email was introduced, right? So the first generation of email, it was horrible. And it was wonderful. It was wonderful because I could communicate with my friends in Israel or China or Brazil, at any hour of the day or night to leave them, you know, to respond whenever it was convenient to them, and so on and so forth. It was horrible. Because you dialed it up on a screeching modem. It crashed. And I mean, the experience was thoroughly unpleasant. But you know, we we didn't care because it was so new and so exciting. But then as it became increasingly pervasive, oh, one other thing, how often do we check our email in that first generation, for me, it was twice a day, once in the morning, when I got up once in the evening, before I went to bed. And now you know, according to Google Analytics, I think it's something like 50 times a day, unless you're in China, in which case, it's 24 hours seamless. And when an experience is, becomes closer and closer to your physical body, because it's so small and light, and cheap, and it's integrated into the rhythm of your day, not when you wake up and when you go to bed. But both of those and everything in between. and maybe as in the sense of my new Google Home monitor, even while I'm sleeping, that's monitoring my sleep patterns to help me sleep better. When something is as close to the body and as, as deeply integrated into the rhythms of your everyday life, the designed experience becomes absolutely the key defining factor. And so with all the technology in the world, the Kindle, the home monitors that we're seeing from Amazon and Apple will be autonomous vehicle, they would not have any future whatsoever. If we didn't have the the experience of delight of confidence of security of all of those emotional states that design can bring to a product. And I think that that is the trajectory that we are seeing coming out of Silicon Valley. And I need to emphasize obviously, there are important design centers throughout the world. We are not alone. But I don't think we've seen the cluster and the ecosystem that I described earlier, anywhere else.Dan Harden 1:09:21And I find on this particular matter that we are at being asked to design the end users emotional state, exactly what you were just talking about. And when you realize that you you have the capability of doing that if you're able to manipulate software factors, manipulate form factors, presenting levels of functionality and performance at just the right time in the in the experience and the consumption of that experience. And that at the end of the day is what good design does. I think it makes you more empathic. more responsible, definitely more compassionate to the end users state of mind, you start to consider things like feelings. And it's not it's not the old definition of design anymore where was like, you know, form and function and give it making products beautiful. I mean, sure, beauty has a lot to do with invoking these, and provoking even emotions. But it's so much more than that now. And I do think that that is probably the lasting legacy of this time period is Renaissance that we're in in the Bay Area. And I think that's what Silicon Valley designers not only here, you know, but you know, in a lot of parts of the world, especially in the areas where they're, they're incorporating software and hardware and and development smarts has lots of great work being done in Asia, in this in this area.Barry Katz 1:10:56The other thing that is a piece of what you're saying, Dan, is that I think is is relatively new is you guys, by which I mean designers have begun to acquire a degree of humility, which is somewhat unfamiliar in what has been a very ego driven kind of a macho design world. And we we used to have the stars of design and you know, we can name them. And they are Henry Dreyfus and Raymond Loewy and Teague and Bell ganz. And those those heroes and then all the way forward. And I think we are increasingly recognizing that the designer is not the last word, the last stage in the story. It's me as the user. So I think about, you know, the iconic example of your mobile phone is handed to me by Sir Johnny, I've, Barry, I've just designed this cool, cool thing. But I'm really the one that completes the design, because as soon as I get it, I begin to configure it. And within a day, within an hour, within a minute, my phone is unlike any other phone in the world. Because of the way I've organized, you know, apps on the screen and settings and you know, 1000 other a million other variables. So you are handing over to me not a finished product any longer, you are handing over to me, a world of possibilities that recombined to realize, and that's can be a little bit of a shocker. I mean, I still often hear my design students responding in a crit by saying, No, that's not what I intended. Well, I don't want to say I don't care what you intend. But that's not the whole picture anymore. You have to learn to step back from your intention, and understand that it's not for you,Dan Harden 1:12:58you know, stepping back from your intention, as a designer, I think, especially working with a lot of young designers that I hire, that's something that they learned because I don't know why they ended design school, I think, Well, you'd compose this thing. And then it's going to be just manufactured like that, it's going to turn out and be on the shelves just like that. But there are so many unforeseen things and other contributors and stakeholders that come in to, to add definition to it, and hopefully, goodness, throughout the building process. But that's not always the case. And we have all learned humility as well. And if you are awake and listening and looking around in this world, you realize that, you know, designers are part of the problem, too.Barry Katz 1:13:47Oh, sure.Dan Harden 1:13:49You know, sustainability values have taken a long, long time in this profession to take hold. We often do not consider the long chain of events and ramifications of our decisions in regards to the consumption of energy that your product will require years from now even after it is consumed. And that humility hits you pretty hard when you like, see your products in the dump. Yeah, I have I have seen products that I have designed in a dump in a dumpster in a recycling center. I've seen this several times. Yeah. I saw an exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary Art down in San Jose. And they everyone brought in all of the products that they have discarded and found in their garage and made a giant pile. And I'm looking through this pile. And I was like, Oh my god, there's a Sun Microsystems computer that I designed in 1994.Barry Katz 1:14:50You should march your employees through that. Exactly. Right behind you will be me and my students.Dan Harden 1:14:57Yeah, I found a Motorola phone. That I designed, I found a toaster that I designed for Sunbeam. And talk about humility. You know, it really does make you think. And I coming back to the Bay Area, I think that humility has exposed itself. And one very special way. And this is the this a newer understanding about what does it really take to offer you a product that is providing some kind of value to you? Doesn't have to be some big clunky thing with all these different features. Sometimes No, oftentimes, Now give me one or two features. That's all I need. So you're starting to see well, you know, several years ago, minimalism is suddenly reemerging. You know, of course, this was done in the Bauhaus A long time ago. And young designers think, Oh, this is all new as minimalism, but this general belief that reductionism is good. Yeah, is is actually helping the sustainability cause, you know, less material, more performance from fewer functions. Yeah. And I think it's kind of it seems to me, like a lot of those values have been born here in the Bay Area, not not exclusively, for sure. But it's definitely a value.Do you see that?Barry Katz 1:16:27Yeah. And as I say, this new product categories emerge. Fitness monitors is a good example, which has a deeply rooted history in the Bay Area. I am, as you may know, a long distance runner, and I went crazy. Last time, I tried to buy a watch. Fitness watch, because I wanted to watch that would do four things. It would tell me what time it is of SM running, how far I'm running, and at what pace I'm running. And, but it gave you 40 4400. You know, it says, You know, I didn't want a heart monitor. I didn't need it. You know, if I have a heart attack, I will know I'm having a heart attack. Thank you. I didn't want a garage door opener. I didn't want something that would fend off my enemies with the shriek or amaze spray or something, I want for function, impossible to find something that you know, because of the magic of programmable chips that they wouldn't do everything for me. And so most of us are now walking around with products. My watch is an example my camera's an example, that do so much more than I will ever even know about, much less be able to deal with. Can I share a little story with you that your listeners may find them useless. years ago, close to the beginning of my teaching career, I was teaching a design seminar that was very much it was theory and history. So the students were from every design discipline in the college. And somehow it came up a student told the story in class, she was a graphic design student. And she said that she had the habit when she came home from the