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19I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be cheered by news of you.20For I have no one like him, who will be genuinely concerned for your welfare.21For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.22But you know Timothy's[a]proven worth, how as a son[b]with a father he has served with me in the gospel.23I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me,24and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need,26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill.27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious.29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men,30for he nearly died[c]for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me.

0:14Good morning, good morning, good afternoon.0:15How are you doing out there in the world?0:18And well, this is a revamp of prepare responder covers program we put on last two, oh, guess two years ago, right, We started with it.0:29I'm looking into all different aspects of what it is to respond to large scale emergencies and not just Emergency Management. Still, we're looking at law, fire, EMS, private industry, public side of things.0:47It's a broad brush.0:49And so I'm excited.0:51And so Todd and I, Todd Manzat is the 2 Todd's here.0:55Start talking about it, what it is and, and, and you know, he's got some really great insight.1:01I've known Todd for a while now.1:04And as you can tell here, the Blue Cell is the premier sponsor of this program.1:08And so I want to thank Todd for that.1:10And Todd, welcome.1:11Welcome to our show, I guess, for lack of better term.1:14Hey, well, thanks, thanks for the welcome.1:16And, you know, it was, it was kind of funny as we were kind of batting this around at the end of last year and, you know, here we are now getting ready to kind of jump right into it.1:29But certainly the world's events have helped us to have at least some stuff to talk about in the last 30 days.1:38It feels like it's April already.1:40And I know we'll get into a little bit of that.1:42But thanks for having me.1:43I'm glad to be part of it.1:46I think this is the longest January I've ever lived, Right?1:53Well, it's, you know, in some ways we're thinking back a little bit to, you know, what's going on.1:58I was in New Orleans this week and the events of New Year's Eve are in the distant past when they're worried about the Super Bowl.2:06They had a snowstorm and they had a a Sugar Bowl.2:09And it's, it's really interesting that the tempo right now is as real as it gets with regards to, you know, what we are going to be talking about here, you know, interested about that.2:22It's like, you know, obviously the, the events of January 1st with both New Orleans and Vegas, how quickly it came out of, out of the news cycle because you know, fires happened in, in, in California, you know, and that kept us hopping over here.2:40You know, obviously you guys all know that I live in, well, maybe not everybody, but I, I live in Southern California.2:46And so those fires directly impacted my area, not necessarily where I live, but close enough to where I have friends that lost homes and stuff in the fire.2:57So, I mean, and then then we got rain right after that, which is causing problems.3:03And then there's snow storms in in Louisiana in the South that's causing problems there.3:07And we're still not recovering from Hurricane Helene, You know, And then in the midst of all this, we get a new presidential administration, which is definitely moving fast, you know, And yeah, so are, are we going to be able to take your breath?3:28Well, you know, I don't know that we have a choice, right?3:30It's that kind of race.3:32And, you know, being as ready as we can be in different places, that's kind of part of it.3:38So that the folks who are sprinting as fast as they can can be relieved.3:41And one of the things that was interesting when I was in, in Louisiana this past week, they were talking about barring snow plows from another state.3:49Who, who does know how to do that, you know, pretty interestingly.3:52And then obviously, unfortunately, the events in DC with the, with the plane crash as the, you know, the most recent thing, another really, you know, significant type of event and response.4:09Just hearing, you know, some of the press conference stuff where they're talking about, you know, the things that, you know, I teach all the time, Unified command 300 responders out there.4:21Got to replace those responders.4:23Got a lot going on, got a lot of media, right.4:26All those aspects of something that makes any kind of response a little more complex.4:34Definitely it's going to be a a fun filled year of topics if we stay at this at this pace for sure.4:44Yeah, I want to talk about that plane crash here for forbid, not not about the plane crunch itself, but about how as a those of us in the field, you know, I know a whole bunch of people that are traveling at any given time.5:01I mean, you're one of them, a couple of friends down in Texas.5:05You have a friend of mine who carries Fronza, who's the president of IEM, who she was travelling during this time.5:13And I went to my, my, my click box of, oh, who do I need?5:17Who do I need to call to see if they're impacted by this?5:20And even if it's something as far away as DC, you know, and now you're going, oh, crap.5:25I mean, I called you or at least reached out to you to see if you know if you're travelling yet.5:30So you don't.5:30It's just this is amazing, like how small of a world we truly are when it comes to that.5:36And then I have friends that work and you do too, Todd, you know, that work in the capital that a part of Metro and and and DC fire and Fairfax fire.5:46And you know, you, you see this happening.5:48You're going, these are people who you know closely that are already impacted by this event, let alone the tragedy of the those lives that were lost, you know, in this tragic accident.6:01And I think that's part of the thing with what we do here between you and myself and, and the, and the organizations that, you know, we do touch every aspect of, of the United States and at some point global when it comes to Emergency Management, We're going to be able to bring those, that perspective to, to the this conversation.6:24Yeah.6:24I think the, the other thing that kind of jumped out at me was, you know, trying to think back through the history and, and certainly some of the legacy media folks were talking about the last time we had a crash and how long ago it was.6:38And in fact, I don't know if you picked up on it.6:41That last one was Buffalo and obviously Buffalo, NY.6:46You've got connections to that place, right?6:48Yeah, yeah, right.6:52And I'm headed to Binghamton, NY next Friday, which is not that far down the road.6:57So it's, you know, to bring it somewhat full circle, preparedness, response and recovery are interconnected.7:05All these disciplines are interconnected.7:09How we do things, we're trying to make them as interconnected, you know, as possible.7:17And I think it's going to be the right conversation, especially when we bring some doctrinal things in and and talking about some specific topics and then trying to overlay it to things that are really happening.7:31I think that's going to be one of the unique things about the conversation, hopefully, as we move the show forward.7:38Yeah, absolutely.7:39And I think the other thing too, Todd, that you know, you and I have some really deep conversations, you know, when it comes to the state of Emergency Management, the state of disaster response, you know, where where we need to go and how to get there.7:57And you know, the fact that we have a kind of book in this thing here, but we have progressive states that look at Emergency Management and disaster response and disaster preparedness and planning as holistic, right?8:13So that means like fire, police, EMS, public works, right, that we always forget, you know, public health, they're all involved in the conversation.8:23And then you have some States and somewhere areas that are myopic, right?8:27And they're very much silos on everything they they do.8:30I think some of the conversation that we're going to have here is hopefully to break down those silos and and be able to have those full conversations that we are all hazards approach to everything that we look at.8:42And I think that's critical, right?8:45And I think also in the, you know, our show concept, and I think it's important to share, you know, in this first episode, it won't just be me and you hanging out with each other.8:55I think our concept of bringing in guests as a, a third element to the show, a third voice, I think will be important.9:04I know you're working on lining up a few.9:06I'm working on lining up a few.9:08It'll be exciting.9:09And, you know, as we move into the coming weeks to get that guest line up out to folks and they can kind of hear a perspective and we'll definitely, you know, be leveraging our relationships.9:21I think to to bring in some strong, strong individuals to give a dynamic focus on, you know, what we're talking about.9:31And Speaking of relationships, I mean, you know, the other good part about this too is Todd, you and I both have some good relationships with some people that can bring really great insight.9:43And so we'll be leveraging those relationships as well to be able to bring you the audience some more insight to what what's happening in, in close to real time as possible.9:53And then of course, you know, my position with IEM allow some conversations to to happen as well.10:01And the Today as an example, well, we, we have to talk a little bit about the, the elephant in the room is what's going on with FEMA.10:10The, the president has set forth his vision on, on making changes.10:16And I don't think there's an emergency manager in the United States right now that doesn't think the Stafford Act needs to be, you know, looked at and, and fixed, right?10:30You know, it's an old act, right?10:33And that FEMA does need to have, you know, to be maybe remodeled a little bit.10:38Sure.10:39I, I definitely don't think it should be destroyed and taken away, But you know, where does it belong and, and, and how does it work?10:47And you know, I've been calling for a few years now.10:49Well, let's say probably over 10 years now that FEMA should be a stand alone agency.10:53And there's, there's cons and pros for both for, for all of this, right?10:59And then today I got to sit down with the acting administrator, Hamilton to hear a little bit about his background and what his, his, you know, his goals are.11:11And the good thing is, is what he's doing right now is listening to the emergency managers out there, meeting with the big groups such as IEM and Nima, big cities, meeting with them to discuss what their needs and goals and, and desires are when it comes to what FEMA is and can be.11:34And I think it's a really important first step.11:37And I, and I commend them for that.11:40Yeah.11:40You know, the, the, the basic rules and kind of organizational leadership are you, you got to, got to figure out what your objectives are, to figure out what your mission is, that type of thing.11:51And, and many times it's a driving factor in where you end up or who you're working for working under and, and how it's supposed to work.12:00I think, you know, that revisit it's, it's not something necessarily that, you know, every time you get a new leader in that you need to do that, But you also can't go 20 or 30 or 40 years and have problems and not do it.12:16And you know, there obviously is a, has been for some time a heartbeat out there saying, Hey, let's let's have it as a, a cabinet member.12:27And my position is whether it's a cabinet member or not, it's still going to come down to the mission, the organization, understanding what the mission is and the talent that's inside the organization.12:40I was in this little teeny organization for a short time called the United States Marine Corps.12:45It's a it's a branch under a department, but everybody knows who we are.12:51Everybody knows what we do because we've got a clear mission.12:53I've had it for 250 years and we're the best at what we do.12:57So in some ways, when you do it well, it doesn't matter that you're not equal to the Department of the Navy and under the Department of the Navy, just as an example.13:09And so I think that's going to be a hard, long conversation and a lot of work that'll have to be done to establish that capability that is not only understood but is respected and is effective in the field.13:27Because that's what's been coming into question is it's effectiveness in the field.13:31Where it sits organizationally probably doesn't have much to do with that.13:35So I think it'll be interesting moving forward.13:39I'm not watching from afar.13:40Certainly have a lot of folks that I'm talking to that are, they're nervous and they're trying to, you know, decipher what's happening and figure it out and where do I fit in?13:51In the end, you got to do the best job that you can and not have that question because you did the best job that could be done.13:58And so I I think that'll be something worth talking about moving forward and, and watching how it kind of transpires.14:08Yeah, absolutely.14:09And, and you're right, I think nervousness, I think is a good word to say.14:13Uncertainty, right?14:14It breeds nervousness a little bit.14:15And I think that's kind of where we're at.14:17And, you know, the current administration's communication style is, is interesting at the at the best or at the worst, I suppose, or whichever we look at it is sometimes I believe, you know, President Trump just floats things out there just to see how people react.14:34And, you know, he's a, he's interesting guy that way.14:40And I think it takes a little bit of time to get used to that style of communication.14:45Whether you agree with it or not.14:46It just says it is what it is, right?14:48You know, not just talking about the yeah, go ahead.14:55I was going to say that.14:56I was just going to judge.15:01We all have to get used to how Manhattan downtown developers do business.15:08That's, that's what we have to get used to.15:10And, and most of us haven't had to deal with that.15:13So it's a, it's a different way that things get done.15:17There's no question.15:19Yeah, absolutely.15:20And like I said, I'm not, I'm not judging it.15:23I'm not putting a value to it.15:24I'm just saying it is what it is.15:25And this is what we have to deal with.15:26You know, I, I think as emergency managers and, and, and guys that are in the field, you know, when we're looking at situations, we have to understand that we don't have time to placate on whether we agree with something or not.15:43We just have to deal with the consequences of what's happening.15:45And, and, and this is where we're at.15:47We have to deal with the consequences that, that, that are happening.15:51And so, you know, that being said, you know, what is the future of Emergency Management when it comes to to what the federal government believes in?16:03That's going to be a long conversation.16:05You know, you know, and we, we have a long history of things changing.16:13And I think we forget this because, you know, we we live in the generation that we're in, right?16:20And we may look back at the previous generations, but we live in where we're at and what we're used to and in that comfort zone.16:28And, you know, I think if we reflect back to when, you know, Franklin Donald Roosevelt created an office that would look at Emergency Management, if you will, without using the terminology.16:39It's where we grew up from, you know, to Truman turned it into really the civil defense of what we think of today, you know, with the Burt the Turtle and all that nuclear stuff that they were dealing with.16:50And and then it kind of got to Jimmy Carter at this point where he turned it into FEMA in 79.16:56And then, of course, the Stafford Act.16:58These are chunks that we didn't live in, right?17:01You know, some I, I, you know, realistically, Todd, you and I, we're from, you know, 70s into the, to the 80s when we were, you know, kids and then we're working.17:12The experience has been this short box.17:14So we look at these boxes that we've lived in and not understanding what the, what the history was and what the changes are.17:20So, so this too, you know, will be a little uncomfortable, but maybe it's uncomfortable that we need to be better.17:28And if we look at it that way and, and as long as we're part of the conversation, that's my only concern is if we start having conversation without us, then what does that mean?17:38Right, right.17:40And I think the, the other thing, just analyzing it a little bit as an outsider looking in, I think what are the alternatives going to be?17:51You know, they're, they're talking about a few alternatives and, and putting pressure or responsibility in other places, like for example, the states.18:00Well, they better do a true analysis of whether that capability is actually there.18:07It sounds great and it probably looks good on paper, but there's going to be a harsh reality that that may not be the answer.18:17And I'm, I'm not going to call out any one state or any 10 states or any 25 states.18:22I'm just going to say there will be serious questions as to whether certain states can take on those previous FEMA responsibilities.18:33And I think it could be a bigger mess and a bigger tragedy if that's not really looked at very, very hard and and very critically in terms of what the capabilities actually are in some of those locations.18:51You know, I think about the fires that we just had here in Los Angeles County and one of the last fires that kicked off as this thing was burning, you know, they were able to put 4000 firefighters onto a fire in in a very short period of time to stop it from burning up the town of Castaic or the village, I guess, right.19:13We got lucky in one aspect that there were already firefighters down here from all over the place that we can, we, we can move those assets over.19:20You know, that's one state.19:23State of California is unique in that aspect of it.19:26I mean, I don't think and, and I'm going to pick on a state and I mean, I can, you know, if, if you fear for that state, please let me, I'm telling you, I don't know the assets.19:35So I'm not not saying that you can't do it.19:37But if you took like Montana, for instance, who has lot of wild land fires, I don't know if they could put in in in 30 minutes of a fire kicking off, Could they put 4000 firefighters on that fire in 30 minutes of a kicking off?19:52Or Colorado for that matter, where you're from, you know, do they have those assets?19:57And, and maybe they do, maybe they don't, but that's the difference between having mutual aid and the federal government coming in to be able to pay for things on the back end than it is to to not right.20:09And and again, maybe Montana and Colorado could put those assets on their.20:13I'm not, I'm not trying to say that you're not on issues as an example, I want to be clear on that.20:19But you know, without federal assistance immediately, can the smaller states handle those large scale disasters as quickly as they can right now?20:34Sure.20:34I yeah, I definitely think that's, you know, that resource management piece is a is a big aspect of it.20:40But let's say you're a week into it, do some of the states have the ability to even manage that?20:50You know, when we start to think about some of the large scale operations and you know, maybe maybe you have an Emergency Management office, full time staff of 20 people that may not have, you know, the ability or the experience of handling, you know, that type of complexity.21:11That is the word that always bothers me.21:16The, the actual complexity.21:18You know, incident command speaks to it quite a bit.21:21We've got a pretty good system for incident command.21:23We've got a pretty good system at the top tier of who manages complex incidents and who's qualified to manage complex incidents.21:32Well, you know, some of that would somewhat come into question if you don't have that guidance from, from FEMA or even some of their support from an IMAP perspective.21:42And then we're that we're going to rely on a state agency of, of 16 people to, to be able to do it.21:51I don't know.21:52I I think it's definitely something that it's going to be a, a bridge we have to cross if that's the direction that we end up going.22:00Yeah, absolutely.22:01And, and, and going back to some of the smaller states.22:03And I'll pick on Maine here for a minute because I was talking, I was talking to one of the guys from Maine and they have volunteer emergency managers, you know, you know, and I'm like, well, and it blew my mind when we had this conversation with him.22:22I'm like, you know, I I never thought about that, that you have a town, you know, a state that's so, you know, sparsely populated in some areas that they just have some dude who's like, all right, I'll, I'll do it for a volunteer.22:34You know, like that means you get your regular day job that you're doing and in the evening, maybe you're, you know, you're doing Emergency Management stuff.22:42Yeah, that kind of that kind of blows my mind a little bit.22:45So, you know, what do we do with states like that that don't even have the ask the the ability to pay for emergency managers, you know, to live in what?22:53I mean, you know, how do we ask?22:56How do we?22:56And the support doesn't necessarily, you know, I want to rewind the minute, the support doesn't necessarily have to be be people on the ground, right?23:05You know, those volunteer emergency managers in Maine may have the the capabilities of doing it as on a volunteer basis because they don't have a lot of disasters that occurred.23:13That's fine.23:13I'm not, I'm not making fun of that position.23:17What I'm saying is they need support and the support that they might get might just be from training, you know, grants to help pay for things because obviously their tax base is going to be lower.23:29So they may need those, those grants from from the federal government to to pay for programs, you know, the send people to EMI or whatever they change their name to, you know, you know, for, for training, you know, the university.23:50Is that the university?23:52FEMA you or, or, you know, used to be FEMA you.23:56yeah.com.23:58Good Lord.23:59Something we're going to, we're going to send us hate mail.24:02Jeff Stearns, Doctor Stearns, We're not making fun of you, man.24:05We're just right.24:12Excuse me, but yeah.24:14I mean, we go into this like, how do we support those smaller states that don't have big budgets?24:20I'm lucky to be from living in California and from New York, which are, you know, have big budgets, but I mean, heck, even New York State, you know, I mean, if you want to take a look at the responders in New York State, there's the majority of the responders in New York State are volunteer.24:41You know, it's one of the states that there are more Volunteer Fire departments in New York State than paid, you know, So what does that look like?24:50And, and what support are they getting from, from the federal government, whether it's through FEMA, the National Forest Service, I help it out with, with different grants and stuff.25:00The you, you know, out here in, in the West Coast, we have BLM, which has firefighting assets and things that could be used.25:09There's a lot of stuff that National Forest Service.25:12There's a lot of stuff that we're relying upon and maybe even too much, right?25:17Maybe that's the back of our mind and and we're relying on those, those assets.25:22You don't compare it to saying let's pretend they don't exist, right?25:26I don't know.25:28That's the stuff I think is making a lot of people nervous about some of the changes that are going on right now of the unknown answers to unknown questions.25:39Yeah.25:41Well, it's going to be interesting.25:42It's going to be good.25:43And we'll kind of start to figure out right the next, next episode and who knows who's going to be in what jobs.25:54So we, we may, we may get a, a really good guess right as we, as we move forward or some of the folks who've previously been in those positions that give us some insight.26:06I think that's really our goal.26:10Absolutely.26:11Well, Todd, you know, we're trying to keep these within that 30 minute window and we're coming up to the last few minutes here on our conversation.26:22Is there anything that you'd like to say to the listeners out there that are coming back and, and how do we, you know, to the new listeners that might be just finding us?26:32I say, you know, TuneIn and we definitely will keep it interested and keep it moving from that perspective and, and give some feel reporting too.26:41That's one of the things I know that we've talked about that we want to incorporate here because I think it'll give a little bit different feel to to the conversation.26:52But I think this was a good one to get us started and look forward to talking to you next week.27:00Absolutely, my friend.27:01Looking forward to seeing you next week.27:03It's always, it's always nice to see that big smile right there very often.27:09Right.27:09Yeah.27:11All right, all right, everybody, until next time, you know, stay safe and well, stay hydrated. 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Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 78Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsNehemiah 9:26-38English Standard Version26 “Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 27 Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies. 28 But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them, and they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.32 “Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us, upon our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and all your people, since the time of the kings of Assyria until this day. 33 Yet you have been righteous in all that has come upon us, for you have dealt faithfully and we have acted wickedly. 34 Our kings, our princes, our priests, and our fathers have not kept your law or paid attention to your commandments and your warnings that you gave them. 35 Even in their own kingdom, and amid your great goodness that you gave them, and in the large and rich land that you set before them, they did not serve you or turn from their wicked works. 36 Behold, we are slaves this day; in the land that you gave to our fathers to enjoy its fruit and its good gifts, behold, we are slaves. 37 And its rich yield goes to the kings whom you have set over us because of our sins. They rule over our bodies and over our livestock as they please, and we are in great distress.38  “Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests.Revelation 18:9-20English Standard Version9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,“Alas! Alas! You great city,    you mighty city, Babylon!For in a single hour your judgment has come.”11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.14 “The fruit for which your soul longed    has gone from you,and all your delicacies and your splendors    are lost to you,    never to be found again!”15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,16 “Alas, alas, for the great city    that was clothed in fine linen,        in purple and scarlet,    adorned with gold,        with jewels, and with pearls!17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste.”And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,“What city was like the great city?”19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,“Alas, alas, for the great city    where all who had ships at sea    grew rich by her wealth!For in a single hour she has been laid waste.20 Rejoice over her, O heaven,    and you saints and apostles and prophets,for God has given judgment for you against her!” The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 27O God, whose blessed Son came into the world that he might destroy the works of the devil and make us children of God and heirs of eternal life: Grant that, having this hope, we may purify ourselves as he is pure; that, when he comes again with power and great glory, we may be made like him in his eternal and glorious kingdom; where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Acts 11:19-30 The Church in Antioch 19 Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews. 20But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the Hellenists also, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord. 22The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 23When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose, 24for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord. 25So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians. 27Now in these days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28And one of them named Agabus stood up and foretold by the Spirit that there would be a great famine over all the world (this took place in the days of Claudius). 29So the disciples determined, every one according to his ability, to send relief to the brothers living in Judea. 30And they did so, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barnabas and Saul.

Acts 10:1-33 Peter and Cornelius 1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” 7When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, 8and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa. Peter's Vision 9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. 17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests. The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.” 30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.' 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”

Genesis 9:18-29 New American Standard Bible 18Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth; andHam was the father of Canaan.19These threewerethe sons of Noah, andfrom these the whole earth was populated. 20Then Noah beganfarming and planted a vineyard.21He drank some of the wine andbecame drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent.22Ham, the father of Canaan,saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.23But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it on both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces wereturned away, so that they did not see their fathers nakedness.24When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.25So he said, Cursed be Canaan;A servant of servantsHe shall be to his brothers. 26He also said, Blessed be theLord,The God of Shem;And may Canaan be his servant.27May God enlarge Japheth,And may he live in the tents of Shem;And may Canaan behis servant. 28Noah lived 350 years after the flood.29So all the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died.

Mark 13:1-8, 24-37           1As [Jesus] came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!" 2Then Jesus asked him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."           3When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign that all these things are about to be accomplished? 5Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no one leads you astray. 6Many will come in my name and say, 'I am he!' and they will lead many astray. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come. 8For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. This is but the beginning of the birth pangs.           24But in those days, after that suffering,   the sun will be darkened,  and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.  26Then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in clouds' with great power and glory. 27Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.               28From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 31Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.              32But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. 34It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35Therefore, keep awake — for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake." 

In this episode, we dive into the inspiring story of Ryan and Shane Pegg, a father-son duo who prove that age is just a number when it comes to courage and curiosity. Shane, a parent and business leader, shares practical insights into parenting, emphasizing the creation of a mistake-friendly environment. Ryan, a budding entrepreneur, recounts his experience attending the Inventures conference at the age of 12, showcasing his fearless pursuit of knowledge and networking. The conversation explores the dynamics of learning from failures, the pivotal role of mentors, and the power of encouragement in fostering innovation.Tim continues the conversation with Shane, who is currently working in a Cochrane-based incubator. Shane draws connections between nurturing creativity in children and guiding adult entrepreneurs. Tim and Shane discuss the significance of providing space for exploration, encouraging curiosity, and breaking down age-related barriers in the entrepreneurial journey. Ryan further shares insights into a school program focused on intellectual property exploration, prototyping, and marketing, providing a glimpse into the emerging entrepreneurial mindset of the younger generation. The episode concludes with Shane detailing his involvement in the incubator, where he offers support and opportunities for local businesses. Shane and Ryan encourage listeners to be fearlessly creative and curious. Fearlessness is a quality that transcends age, shaping the future of entrepreneurship.About Ryan PeggRyan loves meeting new people, creating ideas and inventing new things. He is currently a grade 8 student at Rancheview school, coming to the Rocky Mountains from Ontario and settling in Cochrane. His extra-curricular activities include track and field and playing on his school's Jr.A basketball team. Outside of school, he has been working on a startup built around the idea of fresh innovation and new creations. One of his biggest interests is hunting and getting outside, he has gone on many expeditions and adventures with his dad, scaling mountains and trekking coulees. This past summer, he competed in triathlon in the Alberta Summer Games, winning 2 silver medals.About Shane PeggShane thrives in connecting, serving and celebrating entrepreneurs and community leaders. He's spent the last 2 decades in the Kitchener-Waterloo and Calgary-Cochrane innovation ecosystems, working in and with startups, scale-ups, large companies and incubators. He currently runs the new startup incubator in Cochrane, Alberta and serves on the Boards of Innovate Cochrane and the Calgary Innovation Coalition. He enjoys outdoor adventures and various sporting activities alongside his wife and 3 children.Resources discussed in this episode:Inventures: inventurescanada.comStartup TNT: startuptnt.comCarol Dweck Amy Edmondson--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Ryan and Shane Pegg | Innovate CochraneWebsite: innovatecochrane.comCochrane Business Incubator: cochrane.caLinkedIn: Shane PeggLinkedIn: Ryan Pegg--TranscriptRyan 00:02I feel like business is not only about the money side of things like you're not only trying to make money, you're trying to build new things you're trying to help people. And that really changed the way that I thought of it. Shane 00:18It's amazing how money can follow when you're not focused on it. But you're focused on doing good or doing something that you really enjoy doing. And you do it really well. And the money will follow if it's meant to be. Tim 00:32I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, or a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to Episode 26 of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. Tim 00:32Welcome back, everybody. Thanks for joining us again, for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. Today, we're going to try something a little bit different. We have three of us here today. And I'm joined by a dynamic father and son duo who I met last summer. Well, last late spring/summer at Inventures here in Calgary. And I'm really excited to welcome Shane and Ryan Pegg to the show. Guys, thank you so much for joining me today. It's a show I've been looking forward to for quite a while. Ryan 01:36Yeah, we're excited. Shane 01:39You bet. Tim 01:39So, why we've assembled this ragtag group of travelers today is because when I first met, Ryan, Ryan had reached out to me before I was giving a talk at this particular conference. This was a guy that just was so full of gumption, and get up and go, and announced that he was coming to my session. And I just was tickled because, you know, this is a young man who is passionate about business, and really seemed to have a path in front of him. And it was just such a pleasure to have you there. And then to stand and talk to both of you after that session. And ever since it's stuck with me, and what's got me curious is to really just explore what it's like, at this point in your life, Ryan, and Shane watching Ryan go through this, and the relationship that's developing with entrepreneurship and business and leadership. And for us just to really understand what that looks like. And I think there's some exciting things there. But before we get into all of that, I just want you both to introduce yourself a little bit. So, Ryan, why don't you kick us off? Tell us a little bit about yourself. What is life like for you right now? And then we'll get into entrepreneurship and business in a little while. But who are you? Who do we see in front of us here?  Ryan 03:00Yeah, so I'm Ryan. I'm a grade eight student in Cochrane, Alberta. And I love sports, not just business, such as basketball, triathlon, running, track and field on my school team. And I just love creating new things and going into the business world and looking at what people make. Tim 03:29That's awesome and Shane, on top of being Ryan's dad, who do we have in front of us? Shane 03:33Yeah, yeah, absolutely proud dad to Ryan, also have a couple of daughters, one older, one younger. We actually moved out here, my wife and I with the kids about four years ago to Cochran from the Kitchener Waterloo area. And so yeah, my life has been in the business world working for a startup and then acquired by a company out here, which brought us out here. And now I'm currently at a sort of incubator. We get into that a little bit later. And outside of the work world, we're involved in different things around town, a couple of not-for-profits, Innovate Cochrane, and from a sports side, I really enjoy getting outdoors into the mountains. That's one of the things we're excited about being here and playing some hockey and doing some running with Ryan, trying to keep up with him now, getting harder and harder, as the years go by.  Tim 04:21Young legs, they've got the speed, that we are certainly blessed with the mountains and having that nearby. And it's one of the real perks about living here. That's great guys. Ryan, maybe we can get into this a little bit when we think about what you're interested in. And there's lots obviously, you're interested in sport, you're interested in nature, you're interested in drinking it up right now. But specifically when we talk about what was that motivation to get to that, Inventures that entrepreneurial and innovation conference? What would drive you there? Ryan 04:57So, really my dad was gonna go to this conference and almost as a joke, I was like, Oh, can I come? And he was like, do you really want it? And I'm like, oh, yeah, sure. And he found a way to do it. And I was planning, like a week ahead of where I was going to go, what I was gonna do, everything. And I had it all planned out, and then emailed you or sent you a message. And it just started from there. Tim 05:33Awesome. Well, Shane, what was that like for you? Was that surprising to have Ryan make that request? Or can you paint us a picture of how that actually went down?  Shane 05:44Yeah, not necessarily surprising, you know, Ryan and his siblings have done and he'll probably talk this about a little bit more later. But they've done a little bit of entrepreneurial stuff before this. And so when he reached out, he loves, they all love getting into different adventures like this. And so it's like, yeah, you can come. But you know, this is, it's a big conference. And so make sure you do some prep work for that. And so that's why he did the research, the full schedule when he came out. And we talked about it and suggested maybe reaching out to some of the folks you never know until you ask, you can get into pretty interesting adventures. And so that's what he did, is reaching out to you. And it was exciting to be there. I knew a few people there but didn't know a lot of people, but having him there and then turning them loose at the event. I didn't go to your session, he went to your session, as you know, later on in the conference. It was encouraging to see that and just for him to take the lead and how to kind of lean into that and kind of create that space for him to go and do that. And that was exciting for me to see. Tim 06:44Let's talk about that space a little bit. Why is it important to create that space for you? Shane 06:48I find that each of these kids have their own interests and their own potential. And we can try to live our lives vicariously through them, or we can try and help them live their lives. And that space often can surprise you and delight you, watching what they do, maybe sometimes frustrate you, but watching that to say, hey, he's going to become who he was made to be. And part of that is giving him that freedom to go and explore, to try new things. And that space is, you can keep them close to you. And obviously, there are times when you need to for safety reasons. But on an event like that, at that time, he was 12 years old, he didn't have a phone, and he was in downtown Calgary, we turned him loose, and said, Hey, go to a couple of these sessions. We'll meet you back in a couple of hours. That was the plan. And there were 1000s of people at that conference. And so and he figured it out. And when you create a space like that, it creates that sense of independence, I think that's kind of part of the entrepreneurial journey is there are a lot of things you need to figure out. And there's no playbook for entrepreneurs, you got to kind of figure things out on your own. And have you just create that space to do that. Tim 07:59So, Ryan, you were turned loose at this conference? And besides the sessions themselves, what was that like? What was it like to sort of be under your own steam?  Ryan 08:08So, it definitely felt adventurous, like, you know, I was off on my own, there's a ton of people, but it just made me go like wherever I wanted, because, you know like I was alone. So, I could look at this stuff, look at different stuff, and just do what really I wanted to do. Instead of talking to people, my dad wanted to talk to or like doing the things that he had already planned to do. I could just like wander. And I love that, you know. Tim 08:41Yeah, well all those that wander are not lost. So, when we think about that, when you say you did things that you wanted to do, what were you looking to do? What were you looking to discover in that conference? Ryan 08:54I wasn't really looking to discover anything. I had some sessions planned out, like with you, and a few other people. And during the time between those sessions, I wandered, and I found exhibits, people to talk to like some people commented and like, Hey, you're kinda young to be here. I'm like, Oh, yeah. And then we just the conversation started from there. And then I met new people. And yeah. Tim 09:26What were the big takeaways that you managed to take away from the day?  Ryan 09:31Definitely, a lot from your conference. I have a full sheet of all the different notes that I took from your session. But the biggest one is that I feel like business is not only about the money side of things like you're not only trying to make money, you're trying to build new things. You're trying to help people. And that really changed the way that I thought of it.  Tim 10:00Wow. What's it like to hear that Shane? Shane 10:03Oh, it's encouraging I think there's only so much a parent can say that's actually going to stick. It's, you know, often it's somebody a complete stranger or something else that they read or see or hear from others. And so it's encouraging, you know and you try to model kind of an attitude of generosity and compassion, thinking of others and other first mentality. That's kind of a big part of life here. It's what about others, kind of takes your focus off of yourself. And so the kids are all great at doing that. And, yeah, it's encouraging. And that's certainly a life lesson that we find later in life. It's amazing at how money can follow when you're not focused on it, but you're focused on doing good or doing something that you really enjoy doing. And you do it really well. And the money will follow if it's meant to be. Tim 10:50Yeah, Ryan, I know you've got lots of ideas on the go, you're fostering a lot of things you've got, you're moving in different directions. When you think of that, and understanding that you're still at the genesis of a lot of what you're thinking, what does this open up for you as possibilities for your future and what you're interested in doing? Ryan 11:09Well, I feel like a lot of people have told me, I'm very creative. And sometimes I just get like a sketchbook and start jotting down random ideas. And these ideas, I'm suddenly like, Hey, this could work. And it starts like refining the idea, why would it work? Why wouldn't it? And just making it better. And these can be like, starters for business, and new ideas?  Tim 11:44Yeah. So, we were talking in the prep session that we had for today about some of the things that you're doing at school. And maybe you can tell us a little bit about the class that you find yourself involved in right now. Then I'd like to ask a few more questions. Ryan 12:01Yeah, so the class is an option that we have, but we don't really get to choose the option, all students do it. And we have to create an idea with either a partner or create an idea by yourself, and you'll be paired with someone. And when you have the idea, you have to go through different steps of creating the idea. So, we just finished doing a patent application. And then we have to build it, market it, create ads for it, and then a final product, which we can sell out a little business show at the end of the year, sometime, and people can actually buy your product. Tim 12:45So, you're learning about intellectual property, you're going through prototyping, you're going through marketing, probably market testing, then you're getting out into this. You know, everybody has their favorite subjects at school. Some people love art, some people love math, some people love science. What makes it easy to like that class? Do you think? What kind of people tend to gravitate towards really enjoying a class like that? Ryan 13:10They're really creative ones, for sure. They like creating the ideas. They're the ones that have the most love for that kind of stuff, where some people only like sports or video games. If you like creating stuff or like drawing, the arts, then you could create whatever you want almost like find a way to make that. So. Tim 13:36I mean, entrepreneurialism is a creative pursuit. So, Shane, when you think about your role now in an incubator, and we look at how this kind of parallels what you might see when people come in with ideas, and when they're fired up about maybe learning the basics, or just bringing something to market or going through. What strikes you about seeing this happen at Ryan's age, in a junior high school, versus watching this happen when you're at a municipally funded, you know, incubator?  Shane 14:11Yeah, well, first off, it's exciting that they're creating that course and the opportunity for these kids to go through, not all of them are gonna get into it. Like, Ryan may be more into that. And other kids might be more into other subjects. So, for them to kind of foster, create that environment that they could do that I think it's great, and then those that are interested in it. I think as a parent, it's great to be able to kind of show that support and ask the questions. And you know, when you're asking questions, we might know a little bit more on certain things than they do but we don't know a lot. Like, I learned a lot listening to Ryan, sometimes what he says goes over my head, like oh, I had never even thought about that. And so I think of other people in my life that I will bring into Ryan's life. It could be other friends of mine that are mechanical engineers, Ph.D. Bring them in, and it's like, you're probably going to be better off talking to my son than I am at some of these things he's thinking about. And so watching them kind of learn and ask questions and start getting into that, at that age, I think it's a neat opportunity, we'll see where he wants to go, interest can change, obviously, quickly. But at this point, you know, he's got that. And so we'll feed into that, and again, create those opportunities kind of in his life that if you want to continue pursuing it, and he's got questions, if I don't have answers, other people do, and I'm not afraid to kind of ask others to get involved and say, Hey, why don't you have a conversation with Ryan and approach him? Tim 15:39In your role at the incubator, it's very much sort of in that mentorship space where you're connecting people and helping people deal with their own blocks and whatnot. And not unlike my role, I may be faced with a person that perhaps is an employee and wants to get into an entrepreneurial experience, they want to buy a business or they want to take something to market. And often it's dealing with the trepidation and the fear or the blocks that they've got in front of them. And helping them sort of get past those, get networked, and deal with the roadblocks that face them one after another. From your professional experience, when you're dealing with adults that are trying to bring something out for the world, do some good in the world. What would you see as some of the roadblocks that you commonly see facing people? What are they bumping up against, which threatens to stop them in their tracks? Shane 16:33There are a few things that I think of, a conversation just today with some folks that are either in incubator or thinking about coming in. It's around connections to maybe expertise, or kind of opportunities that I know I want to go here, but I don't know who to talk to. And so they're looking for connections, it might be for sales channels, it might be for talent, it might be for kind of equipment, that how to? I know where I want to go. Yeah, it could be yes, either. It's usually like, you know, obviously, if you talk to any of them, I need access to funding, I need talent, I need access to customers and the channels to get there. But I find there are some very passionate people that are smart, have a few connections here, but they're just unaware of what's going on in the ecosystem. And just Alberta, Calgary, and Cochrane or Cochrane and greater Cochrane/Calgary is there's a ton of great resources and programs and people available. And it's amazing that if you can make a connection, then just get out of the way. And so, you know, even up for Ryan and others his age, they don't know they're not exposed to this yet. But the adventures conference was just one example of meeting some very interesting people like yourself, like, look where the opportunity went. Ryan reached out to you and next thing you know, a few months later, we're sitting here on this podcast. Which is pretty neat.  Tim 17:54Yeah, I do a lot with Startup TNT, here in Calgary. And that is another group that's really, yeah, interested in unlocking the potential and great ideas and good businesses, and getting them in touch with people that can stand behind them and have their back and really help them move forward. And it's such a fun experience. And in the time that I've been there, given that it is in that precede focus, there's so much to learn. But when I met you, Ryan, and one of the observations that I would make, and even just thinking about what you're saying, Shane is, the questions and the fears that are blocking people even in adulthood, are the same things that Ryan is up against. It's the same things like they're not age specific. And I'm wondering, Ryan, can you hear what I see, and I don't know if this rings true for you, is that elements that you could consider challenging are the same things that adults face. There's no monopoly on where the good ideas come from and where the drive comes from. And I mean, I've met several people, your age, Ryan, and there's a difference. Some of them are interested in that creative exercise, and it's going to express in many different ways. And others are not so much interested in that. And that seems to track well with what we see in business generally, where we have a certain personality type or certain workstyle or a certain expression of value that likes to go forth and really try difficult things and push the boundaries and find the edges and challenge themselves. And I know Shane, you know, you and I've had a short talk about that, that opportunity to really help people find the edge and I don't think it's just Ryan, I think you're helping these entrepreneurs find their edge you know, you're not there yet a little bit further. Go take a risk, drive fast, don't use the brakes. Shane 19:56I think that's what's needed with Ryan and kids his age are, they're more fearless than us, like, look at them, whether they're bombing down to ski hill, or, you know, keen to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, little bit time there yet Ryan, but close. But they're just, they're fearless. And they're surrounded by a bunch of peers that are into all sorts of different things. As you get older, you start to kind of gravitate towards people that are like you. And so then sometimes you can lose that creativity based on kind of who you're hanging out with, what you're listening to. And often, your leaders talking about, listen to a diverse range of podcasts, read different books. And so as kids, you're surrounded by a bunch of kids you've been thrown together with at school, some of them are into hunting, some of them are into crafting like they're just into all sorts of different so that creativity there and that fearlessness are two amazing qualities based on your environment and how do you, when you get older, and you get a little bit more comfortable with where you're at who you're around, be able to ask different people for help, for questions, have that humility? You know, we start to think we know more as we get older. But as you get wiser and learn more realize, man, it's like, we get less smart as we learn more because we realize there's so much to grow. And the kids are just curious, and they're willing to try things, which is exciting to watch. Tim 21:15Yeah, I don't know if I've mentioned this to either of you. But my father was a principal. He was a principal in a school and an educator, and he actually specialized in Ryan's age group, and really how to bring that forward. And he was the principal here at the Calgary Science School, which later became Connect Charter. And they are really into that sort of innovative space. And he used to say, and I remember at his retirement when he was talking to the kids, he said, you know, be mindful of your friends, because your trajectory of success is going to largely be the average of those you surround yourself with. And I've always thought that such a good piece of advice because there's, you know, we want to make sure that we're surrounded both in our jobs and in our personal relationships with people that lift us up. And yes, there's going to be the time when we have to lift other people up, but we can't, or we have to be careful not to be dragged down, in a sense, and settle for that lowest common denominator, you know really– Shane 22:13Yeah, wise words, wise words. Tim 22:14So, Shane, you said that it's important to give them space, right, to make sure that they have a chance to find their own way.  Shane 22:25Right, you know one of the things that came to mind there is trying to create an environment and model, the fact that you're going to make mistakes, and it's okay. And I as a parent, you know, I make a lot of mistakes. I just think of it last week, I came in, I came in after a day at work, we had some things to do afterwards, we had the kids I'm like, my daughter and Ryan, like, Okay, can you guys like the barbecue? We're gonna have a quick barbecue, and then we got to get rolling, we got a sporting event. And I came in, and they're like, hey, barbecue, I haven't lit the barbecue, like what, it was like 10 minutes ago, like, but I came in hot. I was kind of frustrated. Like, I'm like here, grab this, and then I went and started it, and then lit it and got going but at the dinner table, I'm like man, like that's the wrong, there's a teachable moment right there. Right? And so you got to kind of suck up your pride. And say, and Ryan knows this, I've had to apologize a few times, right? And it's like, Hey, listen, sorry. And then just walk through. Here's what I should have done. Like, if I could replay that scene, I'd say, hey, laugh about it's like, oh, yeah, it can be tricky. And you guys have never lit this barbecue like this before. And walk them through it, model that, and show them that. So, there are a few lessons that you try and teach. And again, that's one example. There are many more that did not end as maybe great as that. But model that for them. Of it's, A. it's okay to mess up like dad messes up and then kind of walk through it and then talk and say what was the lesson learned and ask for forgiveness, and grow. And I think the people in Ryan's life, like you and others, take an interest, listen and ask questions, and ask him about what he's doing, which almost gives him permission to try things and work on it, and laugh at the mistakes and not berate him, instead of making a statement about a screw-up. Maybe ask them a Question. Hey, what do we learn? And how can we improve next time? Tim 24:19I mean, people that criticize you when you make a mistake, and they're armchair quarterbacking from a safe position. They don't have the information that we have, in the moment that we're making that mistake. And I just finished reading a book by Carol Dweck, but also Amy Edmondson, which I've referenced in the show before, her work is all about failing well, like how do we learn to fail forward? Or how do we learn to understand what it takes to be resilient and really, you know, make those steps and know that it's not about getting it right. It's about getting it. It's about over time, getting up, it's about getting it right eventually. After we learn, right, you can learn very few things through immediate success, you learn a whole bunch through short, consistent failures, that get you to the right answers. Right?  Shane 25:16Yeah, I think that resiliency is key. We talked, my wife and I talked about that as we moved west again, like, we're not moving to another country, like when we moved from Ontario out west here, when the kids were four years ago younger. And there's level of resiliency, like Ryan had his buds back there, and all our family. And so there's a level of resiliency of coming out here that we as parents need to understand, it's one thing for us to come out there and, you know, develop our new friendships, but also kind of looking out through the eyes of our kids. And there's a level of resiliency there. And so we love that it's tough, you're gonna kind of fail, I'm trying to make new friends and see it's tough, but you can either kind of swoop in and try and fix it for them, or walk along beside them in the journey and support them as they are finding their new friends, finding their way. Tim 26:02So, I'm curious, Ryan, do you follow anybody in the business world at large, or any celebrities or anybody that you find, starts to emulate kind of where you could see yourself going? Ryan 26:15I would consider you pretty famous. Tim 26:18Oh okay, thank you. I appreciate that. Ryan 26:18Yeah, you. For sure, bigger people, maybe huge business leaders like Jeff Bezos, maybe I could, maybe I could build a business big like him, or just be a leader, like you, or my dad, who's just running the incubator, and teaching people or you was also teaching people how to lead their team and bring their company to victory, I guess?  Tim 26:58Well, I mean, the most important thing here is that you figure out who you are going to be. And we find ways to tap into that, because you're gonna have your own very special way of bringing all this together. And whatever that is, I'm sure it's going to be fairly fantastic. Let's go the other direction really quickly, either for yourself or somebody that you've seen, been working with Ryan at school or otherwise. What would deflate somebody who's trying to take a risk? You know, when we talk about things that adults can say, or friends can say, that can really make it hard to take that risk? Could you pinpoint something for us? Ryan 27:40Yeah, so just telling them that it's going to be too hard is probably the biggest way. But anything that brings them down, like, it's too hard, it's gonna cost too much, you're not gonna be able to do it. You're not creative enough, anything that's gonna bring them down, it's gonna, and you have to bring them up instead of put them down. Because if you bring them up, then they're more likely to succeed. And build their path to victory. Tim 28:13Yeah, it's funny. And Shane, I want to give you a minute here, to formulate an answer. Well, I'd like to know what you're able to say to people when they hear that or they come to you having been challenged in that way. For myself, when somebody tells me not to do something, because it's too hard. Or if they come to me and say, they're not going to do something, because it's too hard. I will usually one of my key tools to come back. And as well, how are you calculating hard? Like, what does that actually mean? You know, is it too much time? Is it too much effort? When you say this is going to be too hard? You know, what are you seeing as being the effort, get into hard for me, so I can understand what you mean? Because their definition of hard, if they have one, and often they don't. It's just kind of this big, nebulous thing, that they're saying, oh, there's this boogeyman out there called hard and you're not going to be able to get past it. But when you ask them to actually explain it, they can't. It's just kind of this nebulous fear. Rather than saying, well, it's going to be really hard, because you're going to have to go and meet at least 20 people, and you're going to have to find funding for at least $100,000. And you're going to have to go and you're going to have to find experts in this space of design and you're gonna and by the time you walk them through all that. It's like, that's all stuff to do. But it's complex, not hard. It's something that I can put on a plan and say, gotta find $100,000, all right, can do it. Test the number, maybe it's $25,000, maybe it's $2,000. Maybe it's nothing. Right? But you know, get curious and quantify and, you know, before you stop yourself, just say and what do you mean hard? Like, what does that actually mean? So, Shane, what do you say to a person that comes up and says that they're thinking about packing it in because it's too hard? Shane 30:10Probably somewhat similar to what you do and your approach is. I just kind of asked them the question back of, okay, well, what are you going for? What is it that needs to be done? And then when you start breaking it down to those bite-sized bits, like you've said, like, if what was going through my mind was the same thing as you were just audibly saying is, okay, well, let's break it down. Like if you, Okay, so you last year you made $100,000? This, you need to make a million dollars. Okay. Well, how many customers does that represent? Okay, well, let's break it down just 12 months, there's four quarters, let's break it down monthly. What do you need to do? How many calls do you need to make? And then based on, you know, a 5%, close rate on that? Let's break it down. It's okay. Well, that means that you need to make 10 calls every day. Can you make 10 calls every day? Yeah. Okay. Well, let's just start. And then it just needs let's just start. Because the whole process of try something, learn, adjust, repeat. Like, that's business. It's, let's try something, especially in the startup phase, like people say, Oh, we pivot. It's almost like the word startup, the definition of startup is pivot. Like, you're constantly changing and trying and like, No, this didn't work that didn't work. It's all revolving around talking to the customer, the end user, the person you're with, like, how do you learn from them? And so really just asking the person, what is it and then it's that having that belief, like you said, there can be self-limiting beliefs. But sometimes you just need somebody to believe in them. Somebody needs to encourage them to challenge them. And you know, we both are into leadership and listen to great leaders and try to emulate them. You hear these great leaders, if you dig into all their pasts, I've had somebody or people in their lives that have challenged, encouraged, and called them to a higher level of leading and of living.  Tim 31:53Yup. Now you're speaking to the choir, because I mean, that's what I built my business around. That's what I'm interested in. Yeah. It's funny when we think about this, it reminds me of a story I have about my daughter. She's 18 now, but when she was quite young, I think she was probably seven, six or seven. She came to me and she said, Dad, I want a Barbie. And I said that it was this mermaid Barbie. And I said, okay, and she said, Can we go get one? I said, Sure. How much money do you have? And she said I've got eight dollars. I said, How much is the Barbie? The Barbie is $14. And I said, Well, I guess you can't buy the Barbie yet. That's what you want to do, is buy the Barbie. But I said I'll tell you what and we went to the store. And we bought five pounds of sugar. And we bought a bag of apples and I sprung for some chopsticks. And I sat and I worked for free. And I colored the sugar and I candied some apples and I put them on a tray and she walked out front. And she sold one for three or two for five. And she ate one or two. She pretty soon she came back and she had you know, I think it was 40 or 45 bucks or something she had anyways, it was a fair amount. I think people gave her more money than they were worth. But anyway, they gave her lots of tips. And she said oh can I buy the Barbie now? And I said well, you could. Yeah, you could buy the Barbie now. Or, and so then we took that 50 bucks or whatever it was back to the store we bought, you know, four or five bags of apples and a bunch more chopsticks and we still had sugar leftover. And I stood there the next week and I candied apples and there's these poor suckers. These kids down the street trying to try to hock lemonade. Well, lemonade wasn't selling but those candied apples sure did. And so we did that a few times. And by the end of it, she had, you know, this box full of like 600 bucks. She had cornered the market of Northwest Calgary for candied apples. And, you know, but it lit something in her. And so now she's running her own jewelry business. And she's done that for a couple of years, just out of high school, and now it's just going live online and the rest of it and she's still looking for work and whatnot. But she runs stock. And two summers ago, we learned about identifying her core market, we changed her messaging, and she rebranded and, you know, she's been able to do really well identify her market niche, not you know, not sell things that other people are selling, really hit the you know, and so it lights something in kids and it sure is exciting to see. You know, because it's just such, it's they're good lessons for life in terms of you want to do something, break it down, get it done. And it's not about I was also gonna say actually, as we were talking there, I've always thought that we shouldn't call it startup. You know, I think that's such a dumb word. You know, I need startup capital, or we're going to run a startup thing. I'm starting to think we should call it keep going. Right? Like, maybe we should say I need to keep going fund or we need to do you know what I mean? Because anybody can start up but can you keep going? I think is one of the key determinants there. So, maybe that yeah. Okay. Right on? Well, it's been a lot of fun for me today, having you here. Maybe before we say goodbye, we could cover a few bases here. Ryan, what do you have on the go right now in life, it doesn't have to be anything specific. But what's got you excited? What's got you excited as we move through the year here?  Ryan 35:29So, on the business side, I've just finished creating a first prototype of a future product that I wanna sell. And this is like a rough draft, I made it using an old t-shirt and cut it up. But first draft and it turned out great. I learned a lot, how it was built, and all that. And I'm hoping to build that to another level. Tim 36:00Well, when you're ready to launch it on the world and tell us because I know right now, you're still behind a veil of secrecy, which is just fine. But we're going to have you back. And we're going to make sure that we tell as many people as we can when you're ready to take that to the next step. Ryan 36:14Sounds good. Tim 36:15Sound like fun? Ryan 36:16For school. I'm on the school's junior A basketball team. And tomorrow, actually, we have a basketball tournament. And we've been working hard. So, we hope we do well. And learning lots, this is our first tournament of the year, so. Tim 36:37Good luck with that. This is where the rubber meets the road. And all that hard work is gonna come and be put to the test. That's excellent. Shane, how about you? What's up? Shane 36:47Yeah, well, you know, these three kids of ours and watching the journey they're on and becoming who they were created to be is definitely exciting. And every day is a new adventure. So, loving that, on the work side, just started working the last couple of months at this new incubator here in Cochrane. And so kind of filling it and trying to become that place where if you want to start or grow a business in Cochrane, Alberta, or surrounding area, hey, we're gonna help you out and watching some of these businesses interacting with them, and seeing kind of the potential they have and helping them try to get to where they want to go. It's just super exciting. It's super encouraging, knowing being part of a startup in the past and the journey that it is, I got a little bit more empathy for them. And it's just neat because you kind of feed the fire, right, and just add fuel to that passion that they've got and it's just super exciting to watch. Tim 37:45Well, and you and I've had a couple of good conversations now about what it's like to see these incubators run in smaller towns, and what they're going to do for smaller towns now that we've had this revolution in work-from-home, or the caps have really been taken off the monopoly that large civic centers had on business. Well, how is this going to change the world as we see these incubators be more local for people? It's going to change where people feel they can operate? Shane 38:19Yeah, and connecting with others in the community. Like, we got the headquarters for Garmin, Canada, located right in Alberta. But you've got all sorts of great not-for-profits and other businesses that you connect the community together. And it becomes more than just a few small business startup founders. But it's the whole community where you've got mentors helping them out and then being inspired. And this this whole element of innovation happening in our community, which is super neat. And engaging with the local high school is going to have a pitch competition. And then Ryan's going to be on there next year, our oldest daughter is in high school. And so it just feeds from the youth, right up and giving back. Tim 39:00And tapping into that amazing energy. Yeah. So, I'm going to have you back. And I want to talk to you about that at a later time. Because I think that there's a lot of cool stuff there too. But if people want to get in touch with you through the Cochrane incubator, where can they find out more about that? And then where could they contact you directly? Shane 39:17Probably the best place to start is by reaching out to me directly on LinkedIn. They can just find me Shane Pegg on LinkedIn. And then through the town of Cochran, if you go to the town of Cochran, go under the business incubator spot, it's under the business section. You'll be able to kind of learn about the incubator and then just reach out to me directly or dropping in for anybody that's local. At the station, right downtown Cochran, they can kind of stop in and take a tour of the incubator and see how we can help them out.  Tim 39:43Right on. Here's a question that I ask everybody as we wrap up. Ryan, if you can think about the people that are listening, they're going to be all different ages. There's going to be some adults, they're going to be some people that are working in businesses right now, they got jobs, there's going to be some people that are maybe founders, maybe thinking about becoming founders, might be people that are wanting to shift into leading teams and this kind of thing. If you could give them a wish. If you could wish anything for them, do you know what that would be? Ryan 40:16I feel like it would be bring the idea to life and do what you want to do. Don't just follow on someone else's path that they've said, oh, yeah, you should go this way. Or you should do this job, or invent this idea. You should just create your own idea and really make that a business or– Tim 40:41Or let it rip. Shane, how about yourself? If you could wish anything for a listener today, what would it be? Shane 40:49I'd go back to probably one of the first comments we made is creating space and opportunities for the youth like Ryan and others. For that learning, for building the courage, for curiosity. How do you allow them that opportunity to explore what they're interested in? And just keep kind of feeding that fire. Tim 41:14Well, you've certainly created some space for me there, fellas, so I appreciate that today. Okay. Can't wait to follow along and see how things shift here for you. And I just want to say another really big thank you for taking the time to come on today. Ryan 41:29Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you for having us. Shane 41:32Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, Tim. Tim 41:34All right, well, good luck at your basketball tourney tomorrow. We will catch up real soon in the future, and all the best guys. Tim 41:47Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams, and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading

In this emotionally charged episode, Hanne Ballhausen, a dynamic entrepreneur, opens up about her journey from a challenging childhood in post-GDR Germany to becoming the founder of Outer Earthlings. Tim Sweet skillfully guides the conversation, emphasizing the transformative power of embracing emotions in the workplace. Hanne discusses her early experiences, highlighting the struggle to express emotions in an environment that viewed vulnerability as a weakness.The pivotal moment arrives when she shifts to managing a research project, fostering an open, vulnerable work environment amid the pandemic. This experience inspired her to launch Outer Earthlings, a T-shirt brand advocating for emotional expression. Proceeds support Friendship Bench Zimbabwe, linking her personal journey to a broader mission. Tim and Hanne explore societal expectations around emotions, particularly for men, and the impact of emotional suppression on mental and physical health. The conversation concludes with insights into the positive outcomes of embracing vulnerability and the potential for creating a more compassionate and connected world.About Hanne BallhausenHanne Ballhausen is an innovative entrepreneur, skillfully blending her expertise in project management and strategic planning with a profound commitment to societal well-being. Her extensive experience in management, operations, and research forms the backbone of her endeavours, particularly her passionate pursuit to enhance the lives of individuals living with diabetes.Beyond her significant contributions to healthcare, Hanne is the visionary founder of Outer Earthlings, a pioneering platform that champions the cause of emotional authenticity. This initiative reflects her deep-seated belief in the importance of emotional health and her ambition to empower individuals to embrace and express their feelings more freely.Hanne's unique combination of entrepreneurial spirit, dedication to emotional wellness, and ability to empower others sets her apart in her diverse pursuits. She continuously strives to make a meaningful impact in both the healthcare sector and the broader domain of personal well-being.Resources discussed in this episode:Greta's Podcast EpisodeFriendship Bench Zimbabwe: friendshipbenchzimbabwe.org--Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: WebsiteLinkedIn: Tim SweetInstagramLinkedin: Team Work ExcellenceContact Hanne Ballhausen | Outer Earthlings: WebsiteOuter EarthlingsThe OPEN ProjectInstagramTwitterEmail: hanne@unbound-projects.comLinkedin: Hannah Ballhausen--Transcript:Hanne 00:00The relationships that I've had, ever since I've been down that path of actually sharing my full open self, have been so beautiful, nurturing, trusting and kind and compassionate. We are all carrying weight with us through our experiences that we're having. We all go through this life, which we all know that as a roller coaster, we cannot always be 100% performing strict executives that are always rational and logical because we are feeling beings and we cannot deny this to ourselves. Tim 00:42I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 23.Tim 01:13Hey, everybody, welcome back to Sweet on Leadership, we're already having a bunch of giggles over here. I'd like to welcome my special guest, Hanne Ballhausen. Hanne 01:22Hi. So happy to be here. Tim 01:25Oh, great. And I'm still working on the pronunciation. I'm just gonna go ahead and own that fact, but I'm doing my best. Dear listener, we are in for a treat. Because not only do we have an amazing person in front of us, but we get to say that this is her very first time being on a podcast. And I am so honoured that you chose to let me introduce you to the world in this way.  Hanne 01:49Awe, thank you so much, Tim. I'm super excited, a little bit nervous. But I'm super stoked to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me. Tim 01:57Well, you have so much to offer. And you have such a delightful way of doing it. And that's one of the things that we're going to get into here. So, maybe we could start though by just, give everybody a bit of a snapshot of who you are right now in the world.  Hanne 02:12Well, right now I'm sitting where actually everything began. So, I'm back at my parent's place for a couple of days before I'm travelling on. So, I recently moved to the Cayman Islands. So, I'm always going, yeah, in between here and there, up and down, across the world. I'm a global citizen now. But I grew up what used to be the GDR, the German Democratic Republic, or basically like I always say, I grew up in a forest and I mean that quite literally. It's quiet here, very quiet. It's snowing a lot outside right now. But this is where my journey began. And once I was 18, I obviously packed all my things that ran away. Since then I have gotten a background in management, and corporate sustainability, worked in different leadership roles, and specialized myself in diabetes over the recent years, got my own company now, which I'm very, very proud of, and get to work with lots of amazing people all across the world and the diabetes space. And you usually will find me either exercising or somewhere in a deep meaningful conversation, or in my kitchen near my fermentation station. And yeah, that's me in a nutshell, I would say. Tim 03:29Well, you certainly have an effervescent personality. So, you in fermentation go side by side. Anyway, with that in mind, as we were sort of getting set up for this conversation, and I should mention, for those of you that are paying attention, you'll realize that we previously had Greta on and she is also involved in the diabetes space. And your introduction to me actually came through her. So, thank you very much. And we'll put a link to her episode down if you haven't listened to it because it's also a lot of fun. But focusing in on you, as we were getting set up for this conversation and getting to know one another and talking about our different viewpoints on the world and whatnot. We lit upon this part of your identity, that is really fascinating. And I'll let you speak more of it. But I'm really referring to the idea that you feel you're a person that is highly empathic, you're a person that can empathize with others, that has deep feelings of their own. And when you first brought that up to me, in some small way, there was some indication that in the past that's been seen as a weakness. Hanne 04:46Yeah, absolutely. Tim 04:48So, maybe you can take us back and talk a little bit about how do you conceptualize largely the importance of emotion, empathy, authenticity in your professional or personal life? What's your relationship with it? Hanne 05:05That's a lot of points that you just mentioned there. Tim 05:10Let's narrow it down to one. So, if I were to ask, what's your relationship with being a highly emotive, or being an empathic person? Hanne 05:19I would say, it's mostly a loving relationship, but sometimes can go a little bit down the love-hate relationship as well. Because it is also exhausting to feel a lot and to feel so much. But I wouldn't want to change it for the world. Because I feel that it makes me connect on a deeper, more authentic, trusting level with the people that are around me. I also made it my personal purpose to spread joy in the world and spread the message of feelings are your superpowers in the world. Because I think that's what it is for me. And I can be a better, healthier human being, allowing myself to feel the things that I feel, and to explore them, even though they're not always good things. But they all have a purpose. They all belong. Tim 06:25When we think about certain workplaces, and I have lots of clients that are in what I would consider linear vocations. They're in vocations that are highly logical, they're straight ahead, they can be very quiet workplaces, they can be very serious, they can be very academic in nature. And in all workplaces, accessing our feelings and whatnot, it's not always safe, or it doesn't feel like the norm. For those that are listening, and may not yet fully understand how we're defining this. How would you like to paint a picture of a person that is on this emotional spectrum? How are they presenting themselves in the workplace? What would you actually observe? In your mind? Hanne 07:13So, for me, I've obviously connected with other highly emotional people in my work life as well. But I, of course, can share mostly my own experience of how I think I'm presenting myself. And the relationships that I've had at work, in my recent career, ever since I've been down that path of actually sharing my full open self with the world have been so beautiful, nurturing, trusting, and kind, and compassionate. We are all humans, we are all carrying weight with us, through our experiences that we're having, we all go through this life, which we all know that as a roller coaster, we cannot always be 100% performing strict executives that are always rational and logical, because we are feeling beings, and we cannot deny this to ourselves. So, I'm incredibly blessed. And so excited to even hear when I'm now connecting with people that I've worked with. And I've told them oh my god, I'm having this amazing opportunity of speaking about having a kind and compassionate leadership and leading with the heart to someone on a podcast. To the amazing Tim Sweet on the podcast, they've all come back to me. And they all said, like, Oh, this is why I loved working with you so much. Because I could, I felt like I could be myself around you. And I feel this is like, for me the nicest compliment that my efforts of trying to create a safe work environment, a trusting work environment, are actually successful. And people they connect with me. And I hope that this will be much more the case in also other environments. And this was by the way was a research environment and I was incredibly blessed to have such a fantastic team around me that were all very open as well and shared there every day. And you know, it's totally okay to stand up in the morning and be like, Hey, guys, I really do not have a good day to day, didn't that happen yesterday? And I mean, you don't always have to share specifically what happened. But sometimes it also connects you when you actually say like, my dog died, and I'm not feeling well, and I might have to take out a couple of days today. And usually, the answer is not like oh, how dare you? It's like, oh my god, are you okay? Why are you even at work? Take Your time, it's okay. That happened to me a year ago, I know how you feel, let's have a tea and talk about it. Tim 10:08I mean, there is this pressure for many people at work that they feel that they have to leave it at the door. And that's a belief that's really has survived for generations now in the workplace, is that you're not meant to bring your home life or your personal experience into the job, you're there to do something, you know, buckle down, we're not here to deal with those issues. That's the pressure. And so as a result, we have people of all different emotional ranges, that find that they can't bring these feelings up. And the one thing that I would like to say to anybody who's out there who's listening, is that I've worked with a lot of people, 1000s of people on teams and leaders and whatnot. And the ones that think they've got this locked up the most, or are trying the hardest, to never let it out, are the ones that show it the most, they don't necessarily show it in terms of emotion, they can bottle something up. And then eventually, that's where we'll have a blowout, it's like too much water behind the dam. And then finally, when it does come out, it's dramatic, it can be very off-putting it can be violent even, it can be verbal and very messy. So, we can have these blowouts. The other thing is maybe a person is very good at controlling it. But it comes out in other ways. It can come out in sternness, impatience. It can come out in labelling people, it can come out in all of these ways that really have nothing to do with the external, they are largely intrinsic in nature. And it's that person's own struggles with their situation, their identity, their beliefs, and all of these things that are bubbling up to the surface in ways that they didn't intend. So, I think one message that I say to most of the leaders I work with is, you're not as good at holding all this back as you think you are. It is very possible that it's going to come out at some place because you are under tension. And that tension with whatever you're feeling has to be resolved in some way, shape, or form. So, we can either deal with that on the surface, or we can hold it back, which is why I think it's so encouraging when you say that when you finally tell somebody that your dog is sick or something has happened, they will rally around you. And human beings are meant to do this. We are programmed to be communal, we are programmed to support our compatriots up, right? Has that been your experience? Hanne 12:43Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, with those people that you just described that bottle up, there's the saying hurt people hurt people. And it's so accurate. And there's also been studies now that are showing that if you're not sharing your emotions and your feelings, and you're not great at emotional regulations, all of that can actually lead to not just, you know, mental health problems and depressions–Tim 13:13Physiological problems. Hanne 13:14–It can actually, exactly. It also presents physiologically, and it's not worth it, it's really not worth it. And like you said, people rally around you because at the end of the day, no matter how stern or how executive cool, powerful, we want to present–Tim 13:34Stoic. Hanne 13:35Yeah, like all humans at the end of the day, and evolution has put these emotions inside of us. They serve a purpose, they are meant to be there and they are meant to be felt. And they help us in so many ways, decision making, like the very famous gut feeling. There's so much about that that is so true and so powerful. So, I think we should all tap into use it more.Tim 14:03I said, stalwart and I also said stoic in the same sentence. What's really interesting about the idea of stoicism, we hear this lot, there's a resurgence in stoicism, which is excellent. However, that word in particular is misused. It's used typically in terms of unshakable or strong in this kind of thing. Whereas really, when we think about the pursuit of stoicism, I don't want to go down this path too much. But it's a great example of how the word has been co-opted. There's one thing to say about rational control, but that doesn't mean that we impede useful emotions. It doesn't mean that we stifle someone's virtuous expressions, you know, and we have to be accepting of these things. And understanding that there is no sense in covering up reality. And when we look at emotional constraint, if it is an effort to mask reality, then not only are we not being logical, but we're also not being authentic that this is something that we're dealing with. And so the new manager in my mind, the new leader, and the new expectation on leaders, and where some people, frankly, are being left in the dark, and in the dirt. They are being left behind, is that there is power in emotions. And you and I have talked about this. So, I'd love your thoughts on that. What's the power, what's the benefit that people unleash, when they come to terms with and are the owner of their emotions? Hanne 15:43So, the power is, for me, obviously, I have so much more joy in life, a lot of energy. And I look at the world always in wonder like a little child that sees for the first time, the sky turning red at sunset, or sunrise. Feeling a lot can be exhausting, like I said earlier, but I wouldn't change it for the world. It's also in terms of relationships with friends, and also my husband. I think that I have quite meaningful, deep relationships with the people around me because I always openly share how I'm feeling about certain things, even if it's sometimes a bit more difficult. But this is where trust comes in. And I believe when you have an open, authentic emotional expression, with your loved ones, it will only just grow trust more and lets you have a more genuine human connection. It combats loneliness because you are connecting to people so much. And loneliness, by the way, we all know since the pandemic is on the rise, and it's really getting a big problem out there as well. It combats, I think depression and anxiety somewhat as well, because you're openly sharing how you feeling even in your darkest hour. And I think in the workplace as well, it's beneficial because, from my experience, I think I created a safe team environment, where people hopefully love what they were doing and working towards a common goal together as a team. So, I think it also creates a deeper bond in the workplace with your team that you are leading and that you're having around you. And they are much more likely to actually hop onto a task, and you get them to buy into the goal that you're setting, the strategy you're setting. So, I think tapping into your feelings and tapping into that potential of that power. It only expands you as a human being and it expands you in your space. And things come to you as well when you're just open and vulnerable, like opportunities like getting to speak on a podcast about it. Tim 18:17And there's lots of other good things which we'll talk about in a minute that have come to you through this exploration. So, we've established, at least in part, that openness and the expression of our feelings and being at peace with our feelings can lead to inclusion, it can help us in terms of health, both physical and mental. And loneliness is not a small subject. I mean, the feeling of loneliness is not that far away from nihilism. And if we're alone, and we're not sure why we are in the world, it can lead to some pretty dark feelings of what is it all for. And that the interesting thing there is a life without feeling, a job without feeling is a series of connected tasks. We can go and we can do and we can execute on something. But that's just the doing of something, right? Whereas the living, living a life, is feeling a life. It's the feelings we get through all of these different situations. There was an excellent thing that I just read and it talked about the idea of and what we're seeing in Alzheimer's and what we're seeing in memory generally, and the loss of memory that we've had in childhood and things like this. We may lose the facts, but we rarely lose the feelings. We may lose the pure context of what happened, but we don't lose the feelings. Right? And that our life is an expression of one feeling after another, one event that yields an emotion that leads us to another event that yields an emotion. But oh man if we were to live life without feeling, it would be like turning down all the colors and just living in a gray world. Hanne 20:06Yeah, absolutely. And it's so nice to hear this from you, because you're a man at the end of the day, right? And especially in–Tim 20:13Jury's out. No, I'm just kidding.Hanne 20:16–And especially, you know, for men to express their feelings, I think there's a whole nother ballgame then for us women to stand there. And there's been studies where showing emotions is, you know, that word unmanly. And where we now see also, the results of that there are actually higher, way higher suicide rates in men than they are in women. And the highest suicide rates of those are in Africa, specifically Sub-Saharan Africa. And I know that mental health care is not really accessible there. And also not very much talked about, but also Europe is, I think, second in the ranking. I think the statistic was that 18 in 100,000 men commit suicide. And if only men were allowed to feel, and if we could encourage them, little boys from you know, small onwards, when they're babies, when they're toddlers, to talk about their feelings, to feel their feelings, wouldn't also the world be a safer place? Tim 21:33I think so. I mean, the issue right now is we still have a culture where feelings can be weaponized, and they can be weaponized against people and they can be weaponized towards people. And there is some, I would say evolutionary reasons why men and women, and I'm talking about 500,000 years ago, where it was an evolutionary advantage for the hunter of the tribe, or the warrior of the tribe, or whatever you want to say, to not feel an emotion in the moment and be able to go forward and do something. Now, this doesn't always have a place in today's society. But we have to remember that I mean, we are still, physiologically, we are still very much the same being that we were 100,000 years ago, right? Like we are, we haven't, we haven't evolved. We're very, I say this over and over again, we're very dumb monkeys like we're very dumb apes, we sort of have, we are apes with choice, which we probably aren't really prepared for. But your point is not lost. Men do deal with this, are dealing with this on a cultural level. And I think that when we talk about wokeism, or awakening, and how important that is, it's not just an outward expression of understanding how other people are feeling and living their lives. It's actually an embracing of how we present in the world and how we're in our in between our ears, even that, just saying that I know is going to turn off a whole bunch of people that are listening to this. Because that is a scary prospect, to fully embrace what we're feeling and why we're feeling it. What the histories behind those feelings are and how much we may have been programmed or have given in to certain things and to come to terms with that, at this juncture in human evolution, over COVID through the Me Too campaign around the George Floyd issues, here in Canada, around the residential school issues, we've had to come to terms with how we feel about all of these things, environmental issues. I mean, the list goes on and on. The Middle East, Ukraine, all of these things come to the forefront. And if we don't talk about it on those levels, how do we ever get down to the truth of really getting down to why we think the way we think and why we feel the way we feel? So anyway, I mean, thank you, I think? But at the same time, we're rounding around a couple of things here that I'd like to steer us back towards. And that is, we've outlined why this is interesting in the present and why it's helping you in the present. But would you be willing to go a little into your own personal journey with what it meant for yourself? How you framed being emotional as you grew up? And then what were your first experiences, career-wise, school-wise, that have led us to today? Because I think for some of the people that are out there, it would be very helpful for them to hear a journey someone else's taken. Take us back to as early as you'd like to go. Hanne 24:45Sure. So, like I said, I grew up in what used to be the GDR, so I'm a post wall came down, baby. So, born in the 90s and my parents, specifically my dad, I think we have to go even a bit further back. He must have had also a terrible childhood. And they do say either you reproduce what happened to you as a child, your traumas, or you go a complete different way. Unfortunately, I got the reproduction site. And my childhood and teenage years were not easy. They're a dark place that I don't often journey back to. But I do remember when I was a little child, I was never allowed to cry, because apparently I was acting. And it was tough when you constantly get criticized and shouted at, not to cry. So, I always tried to suppress it. So, much so that I ended up hyperventilating, which usually made things worse because I was acting even more. Tim 26:03Yeah, you're being even more dramatic.  Hanne 26:06Exactly. So, I learned from very early on that my, let's call them bad emotions, my negative emotions, me crying was bad. On the other side, from my mom's side, I'm gifted with an infinite pool of tears. So, it comes from my granddad that has come from my mum. And now I'm gifted with this too. I cry at everything, be it happy, be it something, a moving conversation, be it little puppies on Instagram, being my best friends getting married. People being happy, I cry at those, I cry at everything. My husband always said that that's one of my superpowers. So, we have like those two very polarizing effects that I grew up with in my childhood. And in my teenage years, I was so awkward, I was so weird. And I fully like ended up in depression. So, I never really fully fit in this tiny place here that I grew up. And I was a yeah, in a very, very dark place. As a teenager, Tim 27:22You were in a dark forest. Literally. Hanne 27:27Literally. It's easy today to talk about it because it's a story. That is part of me, but it just doesn't define me of who I am today anymore. So, the more I talked about actually suffering through depression in my teenage years, and sharing those feelings with other people. It made it easier for me to share the story. And when I was 17, this was when anxiety enters the room. You're about to, you know, finish school, head into this big, bad world out there. Tim 28:01You managed to survive your childhood and your teenage years. And am I going to be enough when I enter society at large? What is that going to look like? Hanne 28:10Right? So, I left the big dark forest and took my– Tim 28:18Literally and figuratively. Hanne 28:20–Yes and I took my anxiety with me, I kind of managed to overcome the depression. And I ventured out into the world. And I was in London. This was when I first kind of experienced fully fleshed capitalism and Liverpool Street with all its big buildings, and everything that was there. And I ended up actually studying international business for my bachelor's. And, again, I've felt weird because it's business. So, everything is business and you get taught to be in a certain way, and that your vibrant self doesn't have a place there. Your anxiety doesn't have a place there because you're obviously gonna be a high performer. You're gonna finish your Bachelor's with the best marks.  Tim 29:12And oh, by the way, emotions do not factor in that. Yeah, right. The high performance and emotions, it's not in the same category. Hanne 29:23Yeah, it totally, don't go together. I mean. Tim 29:26Well, they do. I mean, this is the thing we're learning. They do. But at that time, in your experience, you slipped into the cultural definitions of what high-performance meant.  Hanne 29:36Exactly. And then for my master's, I got the chance to study at a quite prestigious university. It's a solely postgraduate University and intensely grateful for this experience because I didn't come out with a degree but also with a husband and friends for life. So, that was an amazing experience. But again, I encountered these people that made you believe that when you study management and your only way is to enter one of the top five consultancies, that's your like, goal, that's what you want to achieve. That's where you want to be at. And for that you obviously, again, you're going to be a businesswoman, you're not gonna share your feelings, you're going to be tough, you're going to be hard. And you're just going to, you know, work 80 hours a week and sleep two hours a night, and then you're successful. And people actually sometimes told me, what do you want in a consultancy, because I again, was a bit weird for being a management student. And so here it comes, I enter the work world, I work in a big corporate an American corporation. And again, I don't feel like I'm fitting in and I'm trying to be different than who I am, toning myself down, toning down my muchness as I call it, trying to fit into the mould that they needed me to be a bit more greyed than colourful. Keep my private life outside, just be a corporate Hanne, with clothes that I didn't like wearing, and just to fit into that mould. And three months down the line, I had locked jaw, I had tinnitus. And I muscled through two years, because that's what they say, right? Your first job, you should keep it for two years, if you want to make it in your career and I muscled through and poo, it was not good, it really wasn't.  Tim 31:39So you, the picture I have is, you had a very conservative, you're in a small town, forest town, mountain town, things were pretty in a box, how things happened, that came with consequences. And then you left the dark forest, you found this new, divergent space where you could be yourself, meet all these different people, have all these different ideas, start to learn about your talents. And then as we start to say, Well, where are these talents applied? We're looking at one of the big firms, we're looking at traditional corporate, Western-style corporate environments, you're back into a gray, risk-ridden existence, where there's a whole bunch of shoulds of how you should be behaving yourself and what it means to be a professional at your level. You're back into a dark forest at that point. So, you came out into the light for a bit, and then you were back into it. And that's when this physiological issues started to manifest, right? What was the moment when you said no deal? Where you said, this is not the way I'm gonna keep going forward. Hanne 32:53So, that was actually unintended. It was just me throwing myself in cold water and just doing 180, a friend of mine, who's a pediatrician, amazing researcher also lives with type one diabetes. She's one of my closest friends, and we had to catch up, and haven't seen each other for a long time. And I knew that they had gotten a big grant for a research project. And I was asking her about it. She was telling me how they were looking for a project manager, couldn't find one. And she said, Hanne. And this was the moment where I was like, Okay, this is it. I'm going finally, like, this is it, where I leave corporate, for now behind. And I just punched myself into cold water being an internal research world, with different universities and institutions spread over five countries. That was at the end of 2019. So, of course, you know, what's coming next, the pandemic hits. I'm managing about 30 people across five countries, throughout the pandemic, in this big 1 million euro research project that's been funded from the EU. And because my friend is in it, I'm more myself because I know her and Tim 34:14The roots were in friendship, not in professional optics and what you're supposed to be, right? It wasn't about your professional brand and degree it was about friendship and trust. Hanne 34:24Exactly. So, I've applied this kind of trust and openness to the whole team. And of course, when you talk to people only online, you've never seen them in person. And we're all suffering through this dark veil of the pandemic and are so insecure about what's going to happen and scared. And we're just, you know, in our meetings, talk about how we're feeling, who had a friend, the friends who had COVID, how did they do, oh my god, how we're feeling and through all of this vulnerability and openness, all of a sudden I started tapping into this potential of a safe, non-toxic work environment, where people are talking about how they're feeling. Where people are talking about like, Oh, my dad is sick, I'm worried. I don't know if I should work today or not. And I'm like, please just turn off your laptop, go and see your dad, it's way more than important. Tim 35:26And I take it, they're still highly productive, and they're still high-performance. And they're still getting the job obsolete. In fact, maybe more so. And so emerging from that dark forest, all of these rules that you were given about how to show up, and what you needed to be, what it meant to be strong, what it meant to be professional, they're falling away, is the picture I have. These are not actually the answer. In fact, they're holding us back from what is truly possible. If we just incorporate feelings into the professional experience. Am I close there?  Hanne 36:08Yeah, 100%, we've delivered this very big research project, very successfully. I think there were like 18 publications that we got out of it, with very high-profile journals out there. And some of us still talk to each other, work together. We're always plotting on how we can get back together because we had such a blast. But you know, as it is, with projects that are not meant to last, so–Tim 36:32Transient, yeah. Hanne 36:34–It eventually finished. But I think despite COVID and everything sort of shutting down, we were so successful in what we did. Tim 36:47Hanne, I have a question. So, as projects are, you just said they're transient? And away you go. Right? We're on to other things. How many of those teammates do you still keep in contact with?  Hanne 37:03Very closely? Well, definitely my friends. And another two, three people, four people. Tim 37:11But you keep tabs on them, you have a personal relationship? On top of the professional relations. Hanne 37:13Yes. Tim 37:14And if this had been a traditional Big Four consultancy House Project, we would have been around these other people all with our shields up, right? The project would end and what would happen? They would sink back into the background, we would never talk to them again. And big deal. Right, they were just walk-on extras in our lives for a while and away they go. You're opening something for me, because one of the things that's always been kind of natural to me, I guess, is I maintain relationships with people from my very first jobs. And I reach out to them, and we're quite close in the rest of it. And maybe it was because I'll just share a little bit about myself. I went through a period where, you know, I was a heavy kid, I wasn't obese by today's standards, but I just was broad and endomorphic. And, you know, it always played sports and whatever, but I was always the big one. So, I would either get challenged to fights because I was the one to knock down or try to, or I was the one that was a little bit different. And so, you know, easy to pick on. And I countered that with being the class clown for years and doing things like that, that was my compensation. And maybe I still do that. I don't know. But um, you know, I was quite at peace with that. I remember, at a fairly young age, this moment, where I was kind of fatigued about trying to be somebody for somebody else. And I just said, you know what, I'm just going to be myself, and they can take me or leave me. And that kind of always carried in. And so maybe it was some sort of rebellion, or maybe it was some sort of, I don't know, selective learning? But I never put a lot of stake in social orders. Right? It's probably something that's helped me now because I go up and I deal with senior executives and I don't have a heck of a lot of fear. You know, I go up and I just, I like, these are people, they put their pants on one leg at a time. Everybody poops, everybody pees, we're all human beings, like don't act like you don't. So, at some point, we just go and I meet with them on that level. I start with them on that level. But I've had relationships last for decades, long after we close out the work. And we talk about all the struggles that certain people have maintaining client bases and being you know, validated in the eyes of others and the rest of it. At the same time, if we're– and I'm saying there's a very real nugget for people who are listening to incorporate into their own personal brands or their own ideas of growth. Think what becomes possible if we connect with people on an emotional level where they actually see us as human beings and care about us, we care about them. It makes a lot of the professional stuff just so much easier. I don't think we can really tack a lot of, we could probably not identify a lot of professional sports teams that don't have some degree of care for one another. Right? So, anyway, that's one of the things that you're ringing for me is that you stumbled on a way to create deep and lasting relations with people that can't be based on transactional means. Because then it's only good, well, you're good for me. Rather than what about what I'm good for you? Anyway, sorry. Taken over a little bit there. Apologies. But how does that sound? Am I on your wavelength?  Hanne 41:05Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. And I mean, this journey I've been on is fairly recent. So, it's been kind of since 2019, since I'm on this journey, and maybe since last year, when I'm fully consciously leaning into it. And seeing that it's a strength as a leader, or as a person that wants to be a leader, to tap into this potential and be your true self and be open and vulnerable. To be soft, it's not a weakness, this is something that I've been told my whole life by, also, my dad is, oh god, you're so soft, how you're gonna make it, but actually being soft, you are so courageous, and you're so brave to be soft, in a hard world that is out there. And with all of the softness, and that light you're sharing, you're gonna touch so many more people out there, and they are going to remember you. They're going to look out for you when you need needed the most, they will be there for you. And be it the people that are your friends and your family and your chosen family. I'm all about the chosen family, but also people at work, they will have your back when you cannot be your 110% super power energetic woman or person to perform. They will have your back and they will pick up your slack and they will be there for you. So, I feel you can only win by putting yourself out there. Tim 42:47This has been proved again and again and again. And I mean, I remember back in the mid-2010s, working with several groups that are doing mega projects, where they're several different contractors, some of them competitors coming together to deliver large, very large projects. And that historical tendency is that these mega projects when we're talking about in excess of two $3 billion. They are prone to providers under bussing one and each other, hamstringing one another because if I can make my competitor look bad, then I'll get more of the work kind of thing. Right? And they also are the ones that tend to be overspent. They've blown their schedules. And they tend to result in a lot of litigations and changes and things like this. And it goes way back, you know, we see a whole bunch of behaviours that come out of that they underbid and then disappoint the client later and all sorts of things. Well, we sought out to change this. And so we started to really get into not just collaborative contracting, but collaboration and teamwork from the start. And so in two-year projects, we would see competitors, instead of looking for opportunities to underbus, their project colleague, to actually get to have opportunities to stand them up. Even when it might have slowed themselves down. They were more communal and said, so we can get the entire project done. It doesn't make any sense for us to move faster, because we're not on the critical path, you are. So, what can we do to help? They would lend resources, they would lend people, they may have received materials first, they would give those materials over trusting that they would be replaced with the competitor's order when it finally came in if it was delayed. What happened? We had a team that came to the end and we had very seasoned workers that had been doing this work for three decades. That said, I've never worked on a project like this. And I've never felt that the entire team has my back. And we had young workers with new families saying, I feel like they're telling me to be safe and they mean it and they really care whether or not I get back to my family safe. And I remember this one young woman, she was probably 27, right at the beginning of her career. And she came from a difficult personal life. And she was out in this remote location working with these groups of strangers. And she said, You know, I come back to this place, and it feels like a family. I miss this place when I go. I mean, she was there for two, three years. And she meant it, she meant every single word of it, because not only was it stable, from a cultural perspective, but emotionally, it was so supportive. And she really felt like people had their back. And I remember this other young professional woman said, at the very end, she had the very last word, and she said, It's not goodbye, it's see you later. And she really meant that. And she, I've talked to her since and she's carried so many good relationships forward with her. So, it's just so inspiring to see those types of people have those experiences. And that's what we're at the root of here, in a sense, and you're helping to illustrate, is just that there is so much personal potential, if we let the tears flow when they need to flow. And we deal with them when they're happening. Hanne 46:10Yeah, well said.Tim 46:12Tell us a little, sorry, you're just bringing up so much for me that it's like it's really quite great. Can you tell me, please, what are the things that you're working on right now? Because you've got also some new chapters in your story that had been opened because of these realizations, I would love for you to share that, because I'm so excited for it. Hanne 46:36Thank you so much. Yes. So, with leaning into all of the potential of feelings and the power of it, I wanted to make T-shirts for myself with emotional messengering on it and just, you know, proudly, boldly walk around there in the world, on the beach in Cayman Island, or in the streets of Berlin, where I used to live, just to kind of plaster it into people's faces, like, hey, you know, feel your feelings. And then my husband was like, Nah, you can't do that, you really need to make a webshop and put it out there for people to buy them and for people to also wear them if they want to. And I'm like, okay, so I actually sat down, and I've never done anything like that before. And I built my little Shopify, online shop and designed a t-shirt with a beautiful friend of mine from London, who's a designer as well, big shout out to Sam. And we came up with this t-shirt that we actually managed to launch on the 10th of October, which is World Mental Health Day. And it reads very, very big on the back, how're you feeling? Because oftentimes, you know, number one, we don't take the time to check in with ourselves. And oftentimes we get the How are you feeling, good you? Yeah, well, good, bye. Okay, ciao. But no, we want to give you a moment to take a moment, take a breath. And just really think about how are you feeling right in this moment. So, hopefully, in the future, there's going to be more T-shirts, definitely with big bold messaging around feelings. And maybe people are interested to also boldly wear their feelings on their sleeves, and just join that movement of giving feelings and emotions that stage that they deserve, the attention that data serve, and tap into that superpower that our feelings are. Tim 48:44So, to step back through your story, from the little girl in the dark forest, that was bottled up, through the university student that found a new voice, through the professional consultant that was back in the dark forest and a little bit bottled up, through the person that took advantage of a friend's kindness and found a new voice. We now see this emergence, Hanne, who is going to grab the world with this vision of having people literally wear their hearts, maybe not on their sleeves, but on their backs, and create and really fight for a new standard of what it means when we ask a person Hey, how are you doing? Or what are you feeling? Or how's it going today? To have the space to actually deal with that for real, rather than just steamroll past it into what I'm really asking, which is did you get that TPS report completed or something right? So, there's some room for emotion here and sharing your belief that so much good stuff is opened when we make this part of us not just when we wear it, we wear it. We literally wear it.  Hanne 50:02Yeah, 100%. And it's not just about having done this and hopefully encouraging people to also sign up to this mission of making the world a more feeling place. But also, the proceeds are going to a good cause. So, I've chosen a charity that's very close to my heart. In Zimbabwe, it's called Friendship Bench Zimbabwe, and there is no access to mental health services. So, what it does, is they're training community workers to give evidence-based counselling to people who really need it, by just using WhatsApp and booking an appointment with a community worker who you then meet on the bench, and you can talk about your depression, your anxiety, any struggles, you're going through, suicidal thoughts, even. And I think it's so impactful. And so important that in places without access, something like this exists. So, very passionate about this as well. And it just kind of aligns very beautifully as well with the mission that Outer Earthlings. So, this is my little T-shirt company. Tim 51:10I was about to prompt you to make sure you give us that name.  Hanne 51:14Yes, it's called Outer Earthlings, which is actually a German word for not sure how to spell this German word. Außerirdischer (not sure if this is correct), so, an alien, but it's a literal translation of it, an Outer Earthling. So, it's about you coming out of your shell, and sharing your feelings. So, very much Friendship Bench Zimbabwe, and lines a lot with our mission at Outer Earthlings and getting to people to feel more openly and honestly and vulnerably. So, yeah, I'm very excited about that. Tim 51:42Anybody who knows me knows, I'm a huge fan of putting stuff on T-shirts. So, I am so excited for your journey, this will not be the first and the last time you're with me if I can do anything about it. Because we're going to follow up and see how things are going. And I just really want to say thank you for spending the time with me today and sharing your story so that other people can use this as a ladder to consider their own lives and where they're climbing to. I've prepared you for this. But let's go through it once again. You've already told us about Outer Earthlings, we're going to put the link in the show notes. If people want to get in touch with you what's the best way? Hanne 52:25That's probably via LinkedIn. So, just by finding my name, and there are two Hanne Ballhausen's out there, both of us are German, but one of them Tim 52:34Both of you are in pharmacy and/or have had experience in med tech. Hanne 52:39Quite similar, actually, it's quite funny but message the one that's based in the Cayman Islands, and you'll get to me. Otherwise, you can reach out on the website of Outer Earthlings as well. As well, as our Instagram page, Outer Earthlings. And you're very welcome to also drop me an email anytime if you want to.  Tim 53:02And we will of course put all of that contact information in the notes. So, that is awesome. Last question is where we wrap up. Amazing journey. Thank you for sharing with us. If you could hope for something if you could make a wish for someone who is listening here today. What would your wish be for people that are listening here today? How would their lives be improved? Hanne 53:29So, if I can make a wish for the people listening today, I hope you're kind to yourself. I hope you treat yourself with compassion. But also put that kindness and compassion out there in the world. Trust your gut feeling. It's there for a reason. Tap into your superpower that are your feelings. And just join me and to give into all of your muchness of who you are. You're beautiful. Tim 54:04Yeah. Be Your muchness and then you can find your enoughness. Hanne 54:05Now, I'm crying. Great, you've done it. I've done so well for the past hour. Tim 54:15Oh, no tears are always welcome with me. So, thank you so much. Hanne 54:17Thank you, Tim. This was beautiful. Tim 54:19Can't wait till we can do it again.Hanne 54:21 Me neither.Tim 54:30Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too, by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in, in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.

A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. For anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you'll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It's more than just making a product accessible, it's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.” Something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too! Microsoft's ResourcesMicrosoft Inclusive DesignOriginal ToolkitToolkit for CognitionInclusive AIFurther Reading:Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat HolmesInclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UKInclusively - Support for employers and employeesHistory of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered DesignInclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina MallonContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show. Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay,Christina Mallon 05:38here we go.Hannah Choi 05:41All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?Doug Kim 06:01Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.Hannah Choi 06:34And Christina,Christina Mallon 06:37so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today. Hannah Choi 06:53Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least, Margaret Price 06:57Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.Hannah Choi 07:13So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.Margaret Price 07:28Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.Hannah Choi 10:17That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.Christina Mallon 10:52Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.Doug Kim 12:04Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.Christina Mallon 13:40Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,Hannah Choi 13:54Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?Christina Mallon 14:26 Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.Hannah Choi 15:12And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.Christina Mallon 15:14So over 200,000 people, yeah.Doug Kim 15:19You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times likeHannah Choi 16:12that one person or something. Christina Mallon 16:14First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.Hannah Choi 16:38Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?Christina Mallon 17:28Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.Hannah Choi 18:25And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in thereDoug Kim 19:35Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.Hannah Choi 19:58So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,Doug Kim 20:23were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.Margaret Price 20:29So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.Doug Kim 21:59Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.Hannah Choi 23:27Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.Doug Kim 24:19So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous? Hannah Choi 24:55Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever. Doug Kim 25:58Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car? Margaret Price 28:10Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product's fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.Hannah Choi 29:03Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.Doug Kim 29:25Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,Christina Mallon 31:25I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.Hannah Choi 31:54Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,Christina Mallon 33:14I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.Hannah Choi 33:58And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?Doug Kim 34:19Everything I know comes from Margaret.Hannah Choi 34:24Margaret, you're amazing.Margaret Price 34:28You're all amazing. Yeah,Christina Mallon 34:30we're all amazingMargaret Price 34:32 lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,Hannah Choi 34:58Thank you, I was just gonna say thatMargaret Price 35:01A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.Hannah Choi 36:07Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility? Christina Mallon 38:18Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.Doug Kim 38:48Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.Hannah Choi 40:48What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about. Doug Kim 41:29So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.Hannah Choi 44:05Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.Christina Mallon 44:25We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,Hannah Choi 45:42I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.Doug Kim 47:10Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.Hannah Choi 48:54My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.Margaret Price 49:08Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.Hannah Choi 49:10I know I love her. She's so great.Margaret Price 51:21Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.Hannah Choi 51:52And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 78Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsNehemiah 9:26-38English Standard Version26 “Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. 27 Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies. 28 But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them, and they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.32 “Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us, upon our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and all your people, since the time of the kings of Assyria until this day. 33 Yet you have been righteous in all that has come upon us, for you have dealt faithfully and we have acted wickedly. 34 Our kings, our princes, our priests, and our fathers have not kept your law or paid attention to your commandments and your warnings that you gave them. 35 Even in their own kingdom, and amid your great goodness that you gave them, and in the large and rich land that you set before them, they did not serve you or turn from their wicked works. 36 Behold, we are slaves this day; in the land that you gave to our fathers to enjoy its fruit and its good gifts, behold, we are slaves. 37 And its rich yield goes to the kings whom you have set over us because of our sins. They rule over our bodies and over our livestock as they please, and we are in great distress.38  “Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests.Revelation 18:9-20English Standard Version9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning. 10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say,“Alas! Alas! You great city,    you mighty city, Babylon!For in a single hour your judgment has come.”11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, 12 cargo of gold, silver, jewels, pearls, fine linen, purple cloth, silk, scarlet cloth, all kinds of scented wood, all kinds of articles of ivory, all kinds of articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble, 13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.14 “The fruit for which your soul longed    has gone from you,and all your delicacies and your splendors    are lost to you,    never to be found again!”15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,16 “Alas, alas, for the great city    that was clothed in fine linen,        in purple and scarlet,    adorned with gold,        with jewels, and with pearls!17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste.”And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off 18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning,“What city was like the great city?”19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,“Alas, alas, for the great city    where all who had ships at sea    grew rich by her wealth!For in a single hour she has been laid waste.20 Rejoice over her, O heaven,    and you saints and apostles and prophets,for God has given judgment for you against her!” The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 27O God, whose blessed Son came into the world that he might destroy the works of the devil and make us children of God and heirs of eternal life: Grant that, having this hope, we may purify ourselves as he is pure; that, when he comes again with power and great glory, we may be made like him in his eternal and glorious kingdom; where he lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 78Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Lessons2 Kings 5:19-27English Standard Version19 He said to him, “Go in peace.”But when Naaman had gone from him a short distance, 20 Gehazi, the servant of Elisha the man of God, said, “See, my master has spared this Naaman the Syrian, in not accepting from his hand what he brought. As the Lord lives, I will run after him and get something from him.” 21 So Gehazi followed Naaman. And when Naaman saw someone running after him, he got down from the chariot to meet him and said, “Is all well?” 22 And he said, “All is well. My master has sent me to say, ‘There have just now come to me from the hill country of Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets. Please give them a talent of silver and two changes of clothing.'” 23 And Naaman said, “Be pleased to accept two talents.” And he urged him and tied up two talents of silver in two bags, with two changes of clothing, and laid them on two of his servants. And they carried them before Gehazi. 24 And when he came to the hill, he took them from their hand and put them in the house, and he sent the men away, and they departed. 25 He went in and stood before his master, and Elisha said to him, “Where have you been, Gehazi?” And he said, “Your servant went nowhere.” 26 But he said to him, “Did not my heart go when the man turned from his chariot to meet you? Was it a time to accept money and garments, olive orchards and vineyards, sheep and oxen, male servants and female servants? 27 Therefore the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and to your descendants forever.” So he went out from his presence a leper, like snow.1 Corinthians 5:1-8English Standard Version5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 20Grant us, Lord, not to be anxious about earthly things, but to love things heavenly; and even now, while we are placed among things that are passing away, to hold fast to those that shall endure; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

Philippians 1:12What has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel, 18 And because of this I rejoice.Philippians 1:21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.As the body is nourished by food, so the soul is nourished by people.John OrtbergYou Need FriendsWhen God saves us, He saves us into His family.Proverbs 18:1Loners who care only for themselves spit on the common good.Philippians 1:27Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel Paul says, you gotta live this life side by side with other people.Friendships are central to living a life worthy of the gospel.Philippians 2:19I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare. 21 For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon. 25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.#1 God Uses Friendships To Help Us Experience and Extend His GraceGrace is the unmerited, undeserved, unearned kindness and favor of God.Philippians 2:5In your lives you must think and act like Christ Jesus.The win for us in relationships, in friendships, is being an image of the grace of God to someone else.We are to image the unmerited, undeserved, unearned kindness and favor of God to the world.Philippians 2:20I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare.Genuine - gnēsiōs = SincerelyTo regard their interests with a sincere tenderness and concern.Philippians 2:26For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill.Timothy and Epaphroditus are living lives that image the life of Jesus well.Philippians 2:5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,To save us, Jesus served us.Matthew 23:11The greatest among you will be your servant.Philippians 2:25I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs.Very often, when we're in need and asking God for a gift to help us, the gift God sends is in the form of a friend.Philippians 2:28Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety.Philippians 2:29So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy,Are you receiving the grace gifts of the friends God has placed around you?"As a rough rule of thumb, if you belong to no groups but you decide to join one, you cut your risk of dying over the next year in half."You Need FriendsGod is still accepting friend requests; how about you? Galatians 6:7You reap what you sow.If you want to have great friends, be a great friend.#2 God Uses Friendships To Spread The GospelPhilippians 2:22But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.Philippians 2:25my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier,Gospel is = “The Kingdom is here now”The mission of the Gospel is to bring people into the Kingdom now.Friendships are central to living a life worthy of the gospel.Philippians 1:27Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ… striving side by side for the faith of the gospelPhilippians 2:30He almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.``

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________ Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 78Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Lessons2 Samuel 7:18-29English Standard Version18 Then King David went in and sat before the Lord and said, “Who am I, O Lord God, and what is my house, that you have brought me thus far? 19 And yet this was a small thing in your eyes, O Lord God. You have spoken also of your servant's house for a great while to come, and this is instruction for mankind, O Lord God! 20 And what more can David say to you? For you know your servant, O Lord God! 21 Because of your promise, and according to your own heart, you have brought about all this greatness, to make your servant know it. 22 Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 23 And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods? 24 And you established for yourself your people Israel to be your people forever. And you, O Lord, became their God. 25 And now, O Lord God, confirm forever the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house, and do as you have spoken. 26 And your name will be magnified forever, saying, ‘The Lord of hosts is God over Israel,' and the house of your servant David will be established before you. 27 For you, O Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, have made this revelation to your servant, saying, ‘I will build you a house.' Therefore your servant has found courage to pray this prayer to you. 28 And now, O Lord God, you are God, and your words are true, and you have promised this good thing to your servant. 29 Now therefore may it please you to bless the house of your servant, so that it may continue forever before you. For you, O Lord God, have spoken, and with your blessing shall the house of your servant be blessed forever.”Acts 18:12-28English Standard Version12 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews made a united attack on Paul and brought him before the tribunal, 13 saying, “This man is persuading people to worship God contrary to the law.” 14 But when Paul was about to open his mouth, Gallio said to the Jews, “If it were a matter of wrongdoing or vicious crime, O Jews, I would have reason to accept your complaint. 15 But since it is a matter of questions about words and names and your own law, see to it yourselves. I refuse to be a judge of these things.” 16 And he drove them from the tribunal. 17 And they all seized Sosthenes, the ruler of the synagogue, and beat him in front of the tribunal. But Gallio paid no attention to any of this.18 After this, Paul stayed many days longer and then took leave of the brothers and set sail for Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had cut his hair, for he was under a vow. 19 And they came to Ephesus, and he left them there, but he himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. 20 When they asked him to stay for a longer period, he declined. 21 But on taking leave of them he said, “I will return to you if God wills,” and he set sail from Ephesus.22 When he had landed at Caesarea, he went up and greeted the church, and then went down to Antioch. 23 After spending some time there, he departed and went from one place to the next through the region of Galatia and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples.24 Now a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was an eloquent man, competent in the Scriptures. 25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, 28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 13Let your continual mercy, O Lord, cleanse and defend your Church; and, because it cannot continue in safety without your help, protect and govern it always by your goodness; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.Psalms taken from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer by the Episcopal Church.The reading plan based is based on the 1979 Daily Office Lectionary Year A

Support Common Prayer Daily @ PatreonVisit our Website for more www.commonprayerdaily.com_______________Opening Words:“Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.”Psalm 19:14 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God. Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen. Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Venite (Psalm 95:1-7)Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. Come, let us sing to the Lord; * let us shout for joy to the Rock of our salvation.Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving * and raise a loud shout to him with psalms.For the Lord is a great God, * and a great King above all gods.In his hand are the caverns of the earth, * and the heights of the hills are his also.The sea is his, for he made it, * and his hands have molded the dry land.Come, let us bow down, and bend the knee, * and kneel before the Lord our Maker.For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasture and the sheep of his hand. *Oh, that today you would hearken to his voice! Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness: Come let us adore him. The PsalterPsalm 78Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Lessons1 Samuel 1:21-2:11English Standard Version21 The man Elkanah and all his house went up to offer to the Lord the yearly sacrifice and to pay his vow. 22 But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, “As soon as the child is weaned, I will bring him, so that he may appear in the presence of the Lord and dwell there forever.” 23 Elkanah her husband said to her, “Do what seems best to you; wait until you have weaned him; only, may the Lord establish his word.” So the woman remained and nursed her son until she weaned him. 24 And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, along with a three-year-old bull, an ephah of flour, and a skin of wine, and she brought him to the house of the Lord at Shiloh. And the child was young. 25 Then they slaughtered the bull, and they brought the child to Eli. 26 And she said, “Oh, my lord! As you live, my lord, I am the woman who was standing here in your presence, praying to the Lord. 27 For this child I prayed, and the Lord has granted me my petition that I made to him. 28 Therefore I have lent him to the Lord. As long as he lives, he is lent to the Lord.”And he worshiped the Lord there.2 And Hannah prayed and said,“My heart exults in the Lord;    my horn is exalted in the Lord.My mouth derides my enemies,    because I rejoice in your salvation.2 “There is none holy like the Lord:    for there is none besides you;    there is no rock like our God.3 Talk no more so very proudly,    let not arrogance come from your mouth;for the Lord is a God of knowledge,    and by him actions are weighed.4 The bows of the mighty are broken,    but the feeble bind on strength.5 Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread,    but those who were hungry have ceased to hunger.The barren has borne seven,    but she who has many children is forlorn.6 The Lord kills and brings to life;    he brings down to Sheol and raises up.7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;    he brings low and he exalts.8 He raises up the poor from the dust;    he lifts the needy from the ash heapto make them sit with princes    and inherit a seat of honor.For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's,    and on them he has set the world.9 “He will guard the feet of his faithful ones,    but the wicked shall be cut off in darkness,    for not by might shall a man prevail.10 The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces;    against them he will thunder in heaven.The Lord will judge the ends of the earth;    he will give strength to his king    and exalt the horn of his anointed.”11 Then Elkanah went home to Ramah. And the boy was ministering to the Lord in the presence of Eli the priest. Acts 1:15-26English Standard Version15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms,“‘May his camp become desolate,    and let there be no one to dwell in it';and“‘Let another take his office.'21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Benedictus (The Song of Zechariah)Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel; * he has come to his people and set them free.He has raised up for us a mighty savior, * born of the house of his servant David.Through his holy prophets he promised of old, that he would save us from our enemies, * from the hands of all who hate us. He promised to show mercy to our fathers * and to remember his holy covenant. This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham, * to set us free from the hands of our enemies, Free to worship him without fear, * holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.You, my child, shall be called the prophet of the Most High, * for you will go before the Lord to prepare his way, To give his people knowledge of salvation * by the forgiveness of their sins.In the tender compassion of our God * the dawn from on high shall break upon us, To shine on those who dwell in darkness and the shadow of death, * and to guide our feet into the way of peace.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsProper 6Keep, O Lord, your household the Church in your steadfast faith and love, that through your grace we may proclaim your truth with boldness, and minister your justice with compassion; for the sake of our Savior Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Collect of Saint BasilO Christ God, Who art worshipped and glorified at every place and time; Who art long-suffering, most merciful and compassionate; Who lovest the righteous and art merciful to sinners; Who callest all to salvation with the promise of good things to come: receive, Lord, the prayers we now offer, and direct our lives in the way of Thy commandments. Sanctify our souls, cleanse our bodies, correct our thoughts, purify our minds and deliver us from all affliction, evil and illness. Surround us with Thy holy angels, that guarded and instructed by their forces, we may reach unity of faith and the understanding of Thine unapproachable glory: for blessed art Thou unto ages of ages. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen

It was a tremendous honor & pleasure to interview Richard Rhodes, Pulitzer Prize winning author of The Making of the Atomic BombWe discuss* similarities between AI progress & Manhattan Project (developing a powerful, unprecedented, & potentially apocalyptic technology within an uncertain arms-race situation)* visiting starving former Soviet scientists during fall of Soviet Union* whether Oppenheimer was a spy, & consulting on the Nolan movie* living through WW2 as a child* odds of nuclear war in Ukraine, Taiwan, Pakistan, & North Korea* how the US pulled of such a massive secret wartime scientific & industrial projectWatch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.Timestamps(0:00:00) - Oppenheimer movie(0:06:22) - Was the bomb inevitable?(0:29:10) - Firebombing vs nuclear vs hydrogen bombs(0:49:44) - Stalin & the Soviet program(1:08:24) - Deterrence, disarmament, North Korea, Taiwan(1:33:12) - Oppenheimer as lab director(1:53:40) - AI progress vs Manhattan Project(1:59:50) - Living through WW2(2:16:45) - Secrecy(2:26:34) - Wisdom & warTranscript(0:00:00) - Oppenheimer movieDwarkesh Patel 0:00:51Today I have the great honor of interviewing Richard Rhodes, who is the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of The Making of the Atomic Bomb, and most recently, the author of Energy, A Human History. I'm really excited about this one. Let's jump in at a current event, which is the fact that there's a new movie about Oppenheimer coming out, which I understand you've been consulted about. What did you think of the trailer? What are your impressions? Richard Rhodes 0:01:22They've really done a good job of things like the Trinity test device, which was the sphere covered with cables of various kinds. I had watched Peaky Blinders, where the actor who's playing Oppenheimer also appeared, and he looked so much like Oppenheimer to start with. Oppenheimer was about six feet tall, he was rail thin, not simply in terms of weight, but in terms of structure. Someone said he could sit in a children's high chair comfortably. But he never weighed more than about 140 pounds and that quality is there in the actor. So who knows? It all depends on how the director decided to tell the story. There are so many aspects of the story that you could never possibly squeeze them into one 2-hour movie. I think that we're waiting for the multi-part series that would really tell a lot more of the story, if not the whole story. But it looks exciting. We'll see. There have been some terrible depictions of Oppenheimer, there've been some terrible depictions of the bomb program. And maybe they'll get this one right. Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:42Yeah, hopefully. It is always great when you get an actor who resembles their role so well. For example, Bryan Cranston who played LBJ, and they have the same physical characteristics of the beady eyes, the big ears. Since we're talking about Oppenheimer, I had one question about him. I understand that there's evidence that's come out that he wasn't directly a communist spy. But is there any possibility that he was leaking information to the Soviets or in some way helping the Soviet program? He was a communist sympathizer, right? Richard Rhodes 0:03:15He had been during the 1930s. But less for the theory than for the practical business of helping Jews escape from Nazi Germany. One of the loves of his life, Jean Tatlock, was also busy working on extracting Jews from Europe during the 30. She was a member of the Communist Party and she, I think, encouraged him to come to meetings. But I don't think there's any possibility whatsoever that he shared information. In fact, he said he read Marx on a train trip between Berkeley and Washington one time and thought it was a bunch of hooey, just ridiculous. He was a very smart man, and he read the book with an eye to its logic, and he didn't think there was much there. He really didn't know anything about human beings and their struggles. He was born into considerable wealth. There were impressionist paintings all over his family apartments in New York City. His father had made a great deal of money cornering the markets on uniform linings for military uniforms during and before the First World War so there was a lot of wealth. I think his income during the war years and before was somewhere around $100,000 a month. And that's a lot of money in the 1930s. So he just lived in his head for most of his early years until he got to Berkeley and discovered that prime students of his were living on cans of god-awful cat food, because they couldn't afford anything else. And once he understood that there was great suffering in the world, he jumped in on it, as he always did when he became interested in something. So all of those things come together. His brother Frank was a member of the party, as was Frank's wife. I think the whole question of Oppenheimer lying to the security people during the Second World War about who approached him and who was trying to get him to sign on to some espionage was primarily an effort to cover up his brother's involvement. Not that his brothers gave away any secrets, I don't think they did. But if the army's security had really understood Frank Oppenheimer's involvement, he probably would have been shipped off to the Aleutians or some other distant place for the duration of the war. And Oppenheimer quite correctly wanted Frank around. He was someone he trusted.(0:06:22) - Was the bomb inevitable?Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:22Let's start talking about The Making of the Bomb. One question I have is — if World War II doesn't happen, is there any possibility that the bomb just never gets developed? Nobody bothers.Richard Rhodes 0:06:34That's really a good question and I've wondered over the years. But the more I look at the sequence of events, the more I think it would have been essentially inevitable, though perhaps not such an accelerated program. The bomb was pushed so hard during the Second World War because we thought the Germans had already started working on one. Nuclear fission had been discovered in Nazi Germany, in Berlin, in 1938, nine months before the beginning of the Second World War in Europe. Technological surveillance was not available during the war. The only way you could find out something was to send in a spy or have a mole or something human. And we didn't have that. So we didn't know where the Germans were, but we knew that the basic physics reaction that could lead to a bomb had been discovered there a year or more before anybody else in the West got started thinking about it. There was that most of all to push the urgency. In your hypothetical there would not have been that urgency. However, as soon as good physicists thought about the reaction that leads to nuclear fission — where a slow room temperature neutron, very little energy, bumps into the nucleus of a uranium-235 atom it would lead to a massive response. Isidore Rabi, one of the great physicists of this era, said it would have been like the moon struck the earth. The reaction was, as physicists say, fiercely exothermic. It puts out a lot more energy than you have to use to get it started. Once they did the numbers on that, and once they figured out how much uranium you would need to have in one place to make a bomb or to make fission get going, and once they were sure that there would be a chain reaction, meaning a couple of neutrons would come out of the reaction from one atom, and those two or three would go on and bump into other Uranium atoms, which would then fission them, and you'd get a geometric exponential. You'd get 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, and off of there. For most of our bombs today the initial fission, in 80 generations, leads to a city-busting explosion. And then they had to figure out how much material they would need, and that's something the Germans never really figured out, fortunately for the rest of us. They were still working on the idea that somehow a reactor would be what you would build. When Niels Bohr, the great Danish physicist, escaped from Denmark in 1943 and came to England and then United States, he brought with him a rough sketch that Werner Heisenberg, the leading scientist in the German program, had handed him in the course of trying to find out what Bohr knew about what America was doing. And he showed it to the guys at Los Alamos and Hans Bethe, one of the great Nobel laureate physicists in the group, said — “Are the Germans trying to throw a reactor down on us?” You can make a reactor blow up, we saw that at Chernobyl, but it's not a nuclear explosion on the scale that we're talking about with the bomb. So when a couple of these emigres Jewish physicists from Nazi Germany were whiling away their time in England after they escaped, because they were still technically enemy aliens and therefore could not be introduced to top secret discussions, one of them asked the other — “How much would we need of pure uranium-235, this rare isotope of uranium that chain reacts? How much would we need to make a bomb?” And they did the numbers and they came up with one pound, which was startling to them. Of course, it is more than that. It's about 125 pounds, but that's just a softball. That's not that much material. And then they did the numbers about what it would cost to build a factory to pull this one rare isotope of uranium out of the natural metal, which has several isotopes mixed together. And they figured it wouldn't cost more than it would cost to build a battleship, which is not that much money for a country at war. Certainly the British had plenty of battleships at that point in time. So they put all this together and they wrote a report which they handed through their superior physicists at Manchester University where they were based, who quickly realized how important this was. The United States lagged behind because we were not yet at war, but the British were. London was being bombed in the blitz. So they saw the urgency, first of all, of eating Germany to the punch, second of all of the possibility of building a bomb. In this report, these two scientists wrote that no physical structure came to their minds which could offer protection against a bomb of such ferocious explosive power. This report was from 1940 long before the Manhattan Project even got started. They said in this report, the only way we could think of to protect you against a bomb would be to have a bomb of similar destructive force that could be threatened for use if the other side attacked you. That's deterrence. That's a concept that was developed even before the war began in the United States. You put all those pieces together and you have a situation where you have to build a bomb because whoever builds the first bomb theoretically could prevent you from building more or prevent another country from building any and could dominate the world. And the notion of Adolf Hitler dominating the world, the Third Reich with nuclear weapons, was horrifying. Put all that together and the answer is every country that had the technological infrastructure to even remotely have the possibility of building everything you'd have to build to get the material for a bomb started work on thinking about it as soon as nuclear fusion was announced to the world. France, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, the United States, even Japan. So I think the bomb would have been developed but maybe not so quickly. Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:10In the book you talk that for some reason the Germans thought that the critical mass was something like 10 tons, they had done some miscalculation.Richard Rhodes 0:14:18A reactor. Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:19You also have some interesting stories in the book about how different countries found out the Americans were working on the bomb. For example, the Russians saw that all the top physicists, chemists, and metallurgists were no longer publishing. They had just gone offline and so they figured that something must be going on. I'm not sure if you're aware that while the subject of the Making of the Atomic Bomb in and of itself is incredibly fascinating, this book has become a cult classic in AI. Are you familiar with this? Richard Rhodes 0:14:52No. Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:53The people who are working on AI right now are huge fans of yours. They're the ones who initially recommended the book to me because the way they see the progress in the field reminded them of this book. Because you start off with these initial scientific hints. With deep learning, for example, here's something that can teach itself any function is similar to Szilárd noticing the nuclear chain reaction. In AI there's these scaling laws that say that if you make the model this much bigger, it gets much better at reasoning, at predicting text, and so on. And then you can extrapolate this curve. And you can see we get two more orders of magnitude, and we get to something that looks like human level intelligence. Anyway, a lot of the people who are working in AI have become huge fans of your book because of this reason. They see a lot of analogies in the next few years. They must be at page 400 in their minds of where the Manhattan Project was.Richard Rhodes 0:15:55We must later on talk about unintended consequences. I find the subject absolutely fascinating. I think my next book might be called Unintended Consequences. Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:10You mentioned that a big reason why many of the scientists wanted to work on the bomb, especially the Jewish emigres, was because they're worried about Hitler getting it first. As you mentioned at some point, 1943, 1944, it was becoming obvious that Hitler, the Nazis were not close to the bomb. And I believe that almost none of the scientists quit after they found out that the Nazis weren't close. So why didn't more of them say — “Oh, I guess we were wrong. The Nazis aren't going to get it. We don't need to be working on it.”?Richard Rhodes 0:16:45There was only one who did that, Joseph Rotblat. In May of 1945 when he heard that Germany had been defeated, he packed up and left. General Groves, the imperious Army Corps of Engineers General who ran the entire Manhattan Project, was really upset. He was afraid he'd spill the beans. So he threatened to have him arrested and put in jail. But Rotblat was quite determined not to stay any longer. He was not interested in building bombs to aggrandize the national power of the United States of America, which is perfectly understandable. But why was no one else? Let me tell it in terms of Victor Weisskopf. He was an Austrian theoretical physicist, who, like the others, escaped when the Nazis took over Germany and then Austria and ended up at Los Alamos. Weisskopf wrote later — “There we were in Los Alamos in the midst of the darkest part of our science.” They were working on a weapon of mass destruction, that's pretty dark. He said “Before it had almost seemed like a spiritual quest.” And it's really interesting how different physics was considered before and after the Second World War. Before the war, one of the physicists in America named Louis Alvarez told me when he got his PhD in physics at Berkeley in 1937 and went to cocktail parties, people would ask, “What's your degree in?” He would tell them “Chemistry.” I said, “Louis, why?” He said, “because I don't really have to explain what physics was.” That's how little known this kind of science was at that time. There were only about 1,000 physicists in the whole world in 1900. By the mid-30s, there were a lot more, of course. There'd been a lot of nuclear physics and other kinds of physics done by them. But it was still arcane. And they didn't feel as if they were doing anything mean or dirty or warlike at all. They were just doing pure science. Then nuclear fission came along. It was publicized worldwide. People who've been born since after the Second World War don't realize that it was not a secret at first. The news was published first in a German chemistry journal, Die Naturwissenschaften, and then in the British journal Nature and then in American journals. And there were headlines in the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Chicago Tribune, and all over the world. People had been reading about and thinking about how to get energy out of the atomic nucleus for a long time. It was clear there was a lot there. All you had to do was get a piece of radium and see that it glowed in the dark. This chunk of material just sat there, you didn't plug it into a wall. And if you held it in your hand, it would burn you. So where did that energy come from? The physicists realized it all came from the nucleus of the atom, which is a very small part of the whole thing. The nucleus is 1/100,000th the diameter of the whole atom. Someone in England described it as about the size of a fly in a cathedral. All of the energy that's involved in chemical reactions, comes from the electron cloud that's around the nucleus. But  it was clear that the nucleus was the center of powerful forces. But the question was, how do you get them out? The only way that the nucleus had been studied up to 1938 was by bombarding it with protons, which have the same electric charge as the nucleus, positive charge, which means they were repelled by it. So you had to accelerate them to high speeds with various versions of the big machines that we've all become aware of since then. The cyclotron most obviously built in the 30s, but there were others as well. And even then, at best, you could chip a little piece off. You could change an atom one step up or one step down the periodic table. This was the classic transmutation of medieval alchemy sure but it wasn't much, you didn't get much out. So everyone came to think of the nucleus of the atom like a little rock that you really had to hammer hard to get anything to happen with it because it was so small and dense. That's why nuclear fission, with this slow neutron drifting and then the whole thing just goes bang, was so startling to everybody. So startling that when it happened, most of the physicists who would later work on the bomb and others as well, realized that they had missed the reaction that was something they could have staged on a lab bench with the equipment on the shelf. Didn't have to invent anything new. And Louis Alvarez again, this physicist at Berkeley, he said — “I was getting my hair cut. When I read the newspaper, I pulled off the robe and half with my hair cut, ran to my lab, pulled some equipment off the shelf, set it up and there it was.” So he said, “I discovered nuclear fission, but it was two days too late.” And that happened all over. People were just hitting themselves on the head and saying, well, Niels Bohr said, “What fools we've all been.” So this is a good example of how in science, if your model you're working with is wrong it doesn't lead you down the right path. There was only one physicist who really was thinking the right way about the uranium atom and that was Niels Bohr. He wondered, sometime during the 30s, why uranium was the last natural element in the periodic table? What is different about the others that would come later? He visualized the nucleus as a liquid drop. I always like to visualize it as a water-filled balloon. It's wobbly, it's not very stable. The protons in the nucleus are held together by something called the strong force, but they still have the repellent positive electric charge that's trying to push them apart when you get enough of them into a nucleus. It's almost a standoff between the strong force and all the electrical charge. So it is like a wobbly balloon of water. And then you see why a neutron just falling into the nucleus would make it wobble around even more and in one of its configurations, it might take a dumbbell shape. And then you'd have basically two charged atoms just barely connected, trying to push each other apart. And often enough, they went the whole way. When they did that, these two new elements, half the weight of uranium, way down the periodic table, would reconfigure themselves into two separate nuclei. And in doing so, they would release some energy. And that was the energy that came out of the reaction and there was a lot of energy. So Bohr thought about the model in the right way. The chemists who actually discovered nuclear fusion didn't know what they were gonna get. They were just bombarding a solution of uranium nitrate with neutrons thinking, well, maybe we can make a new element, maybe a first man-made element will come out of our work. So when they analyzed the solution after they bombarded it, they found elements halfway down the periodic table. They shouldn't have been there. And they were totally baffled. What is this doing here? Do we contaminate our solution? No. They had been working with a physicist named Lisa Meitner who was a theoretical physicist, an Austrian Jew. She had gotten out of Nazi Germany not long before. But they were still in correspondence with her. So they wrote her a letter. I held that letter in my hand when I visited Berlin and I was in tears. You don't hold history of that scale in your hands very often. And it said in German — “We found this strange reaction in our solution. What are these elements doing there that don't belong there?” And she went for a walk in a little village in Western Sweden with her nephew, Otto Frisch, who was also a nuclear physicist. And they thought about it for a while and they remembered Bohr's model, the wobbly water-filled balloon. And they suddenly saw what could happen. And that's where the news came from, the physics news as opposed to the chemistry news from the guys in Germany that was published in all the Western journals and all the newspapers. And everybody had been talking about, for years, what you could do if you had that kind of energy. A glass of this material would drive the Queen Mary back and forth from New York to London 20 times and so forth, your automobile could run for months. People were thinking about what would be possible if you had that much available energy. And of course, people had thought about reactors. Robert Oppenheimer was a professor at Berkeley and within a week of the news reaching Berkeley, one of his students told me that he had a drawing on the blackboard, a rather bad drawing of both a reactor and a bomb. So again, because the energy was so great, the physics was pretty obvious. Whether it would actually happen depended on some other things like could you make it chain react? But fundamentally, the idea was all there at the very beginning and everybody jumped on it. Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:54The book is actually the best history of World War II I've ever read. It's about the atomic bomb, but it's interspersed with the events that are happening in World War II, which motivate the creation of the bomb or the release of it, why it had to be dropped on Japan given the Japanese response. The first third is about the scientific roots of the physics and it's also the best book I've read about the history of science in the early 20th century and the organization of it. There's some really interesting stuff in there. For example, there was a passage where you talk about how there's a real master apprentice model in early science where if you wanted to learn to do this kind of experimentation, you will go to Amsterdam where the master of it is residing. It's much more individual focused. Richard Rhodes 0:28:58Yeah, the whole European model of graduate study, which is basically the wandering scholar. You could go wherever you wanted to and sign up with whoever was willing to have you sign up. (0:29:10) - Firebombing vs nuclear vs hydrogen bombsDwarkesh Patel 0:29:10But the question I wanted to ask regarding the history you made of World War II in general is — there's one way you can think about the atom bomb which is that it is completely different from any sort of weaponry that has been developed before it. Another way you can think of it is there's a spectrum where on one end you have the thermonuclear bomb, in the middle you have the atom bomb, and on this end you have the firebombing of cities like Hamburg and Dresden and Tokyo. Do you think of these as completely different categories or does it seem like an escalating gradient to you? Richard Rhodes 0:29:47I think until you get to the hydrogen bomb, it's really an escalating gradient. The hydrogen bomb can be made arbitrarily large. The biggest one ever tested was 56 megatons of TNT equivalent. The Soviet tested that. That had a fireball more than five miles in diameter, just the fireball. So that's really an order of magnitude change. But the other one's no and in fact, I think one of the real problems, this has not been much discussed and it should be, when American officials went to Hiroshima and Nagasaki after the war, one of them said later — “I got on a plane in Tokyo. We flew down the long green archipelago of the Japanese home island. When I left Tokyo, it was all gray broken roof tiles from the fire bombing and the other bombings. And then all this greenery. And then when we flew over Hiroshima, it was just gray broken roof tiles again.” So the scale of the bombing with one bomb, in the case of Hiroshima, was not that different from the scale of the fire bombings that had preceded it with tens of thousands of bombs. The difference was it was just one plane. In fact, the people in Hiroshima didn't even bother to go into their bomb shelters because one plane had always just been a weather plane. Coming over to check the weather before the bombers took off. So they didn't see any reason to hide or protect themselves, which was one of the reasons so many people were killed. The guys at Los Alamos had planned on the Japanese being in their bomb shelters. They did everything they could think of to make the bomb as much like ordinary bombing as they could. And for example, it was exploded high enough above ground, roughly 1,800 yards, so that the fireball that would form from this really very small nuclear weapon — by modern standards — 15 kilotons of TNT equivalent, wouldn't touch the ground and stir up dirt and irradiate it and cause massive radioactive fallout. It never did that. They weren't sure there would be any fallout. They thought the plutonium and the bomb over Nagasaki now would just kind of turn into a gas and blow away. That's not exactly what happened. But people don't seem to realize, and it's never been emphasized enough, these first bombs, like all nuclear weapons, were firebombs. Their job was to start mass fires, just exactly like all the six-pound incendiaries that had been destroying every major city in Japan by then. Every major city above 50,000 population had already been burned out. The only reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were around to be atomic bombed is because they'd been set aside from the target list, because General Groves wanted to know what the damage effects would be. The bomb that was tested in the desert didn't tell you anything. It killed a lot of rabbits, knocked down a lot of cactus, melted some sand, but you couldn't see its effect on buildings and on people. So the bomb was deliberately intended to be as much not like poison gas, for example, because we didn't want the reputation for being like people in the war in Europe during the First World War, where people were killing each other with horrible gasses. We just wanted people to think this was another bombing. So in that sense, it was. Of course, there was radioactivity. And of course, some people were killed by it. But they calculated that the people who would be killed by the irradiation, the neutron radiation from the original fireball, would be close enough to the epicenter of the explosion that they would be killed by the blast or the flash of light, which was 10,000 degrees. The world's worst sunburn. You've seen stories of people walking around with their skin hanging off their arms. I've had sunburns almost that bad, but not over my whole body, obviously, where the skin actually peeled blisters and peels off. That was a sunburn from a 10,000 degree artificial sun. Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:29So that's not the heat, that's just the light? Richard Rhodes 0:34:32Radiant light, radiant heat. 10,000 degrees. But the blast itself only extended out a certain distance, it was fire. And all the nuclear weapons that have ever been designed are basically firebombs. That's important because the military in the United States after the war was not able to figure out how to calculate the effects of this weapon in a reliable way that matched their previous experience. They would only calculate the blast effects of a nuclear weapon when they figured their targets. That's why we had what came to be called overkill. We wanted redundancy, of course, but 60 nuclear weapons on Moscow was way beyond what would be necessary to destroy even that big a city because they were only calculating the blast. But in fact, if you exploded a 300 kiloton nuclear warhead over the Pentagon at 3,000 feet, it would blast all the way out to the capital, which isn't all that far. But if you counted the fire, it would start a mass-fire and then it would reach all the way out to the Beltway and burn everything between the epicenter of the weapon and the Beltway. All organic matter would be totally burned out, leaving nothing but mineral matter, basically. Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:08I want to emphasize two things you said because they really hit me in reading the book and I'm not sure if the audience has fully integrated them. The first is, in the book, the military planners and Groves, they talk about needing to use the bomb sooner rather than later, because they were running out of cities in Japan where there are enough buildings left that it would be worth bombing in the first place, which is insane. An entire country is almost already destroyed from fire bombing alone. And the second thing about the category difference between thermonuclear and atomic bombs. Daniel Ellsberg, the nuclear planner who wrote the Doomsday machine, he talks about, people don't understand that the atom bomb that resulted in the pictures we see of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, that is simply the detonator of a modern nuclear bomb, which is an insane thing to think about. So for example, 10 and 15 kilotons is the Hiroshima Nagasaki and the Tsar Bomba, which was 50 megatons. So more than 1,000 times as much. And that wasn't even as big as they could make it. They kept the uranium tamper off, because they didn't want to destroy all of Siberia. So you could get more than 10,000 times as powerful. Richard Rhodes 0:37:31When Edward Teller, co-inventor of the hydrogen bomb and one of the dark forces in the story, was consulting with our military, just for his own sake, he sat down and calculated, how big could you make a hydrogen bomb? He came up with 1,000 megatons. And then he looked at the effects. 1,000 megatons would be a fireball 10 miles in diameter. And the atmosphere is only 10 miles deep. He figured that it would just be a waste of energy, because it would all blow out into space. Some of it would go laterally, of course, but most of it would just go out into space. So a bomb more than 100 megatons would just be totally a waste of time. Of course, a 100 megatons bomb is also a total waste, because there's no target on Earth big enough to justify that from a military point of view. Robert Oppenheimer, when he had his security clearance questioned and then lifted when he was being punished for having resisted the development of the hydrogen bomb, was asked by the interrogator at this security hearing — “Well, Dr. Oppenheimer, if you'd had a hydrogen bomb for Hiroshima, wouldn't you have used it?” And Oppenheimer said, “No.” The interrogator asked, “Why is that?” He said because the target was too small. I hope that scene is in the film, I'm sure it will be. So after the war, when our bomb planners and some of our scientists went into Hiroshima and Nagasaki, just about as soon as the surrender was signed, what they were interested in was the scale of destruction, of course. And those two cities didn't look that different from the other cities that had been firebombed with small incendiaries and ordinary high explosives. They went home to Washington, the policy makers, with the thought that — “Oh, these bombs are not so destructive after all.” They had been touted as city busters, basically, and they weren't. They didn't completely burn out cities. They were not certainly more destructive than the firebombing campaign, when everything of more than 50,000 population had already been destroyed. That, in turn, influenced the judgment about what we needed to do vis-a-vis the Soviet Union when the Soviets got the bomb in 1949. There was a general sense that, when you could fight a war with nuclear weapons, deterrence or not, you would need quite a few of them to do it right. And the Air Force, once it realized that it could aggrandize its own share of the federal budget by cornering the market and delivering nuclear weapons, very quickly decided that they would only look at the blast effect and not the fire effect. It's like tying one hand behind your back. Most of it was a fire effect. So that's where they came up with numbers like we need 60 of these to take out Moscow. And what the Air Force figured out by the late 1940s is that the more targets, the more bombs. The more bombs, the more planes. The more planes, the biggest share of the budget. So by the mid 1950s, the Air Force commanded 47% of the federal defense budget. And the other branches of services, which had not gone nuclear by then, woke up and said, we'd better find some use for these weapons in our branches of service. So the Army discovered that it needed nuclear weapons, tactical weapons for field use, fired out of cannons. There was even one that was fired out of a shoulder mounted rifle. There was a satchel charge that two men could carry, weighed about 150 pounds, that could be used to dig a ditch so that Soviet tanks couldn't cross into Germany. And of course the Navy by then had been working hard with General Rickover on building a nuclear submarine that could carry ballistic missiles underwater in total security. No way anybody could trace those submarines once they were quiet enough. And a nuclear reactor is very quiet. It just sits there with neutrons running around, making heat. So the other services jumped in and this famous triad, we must have these three different kinds of nuclear weapons, baloney. We would be perfectly safe if we only had our nuclear submarines. And only one or two of those. One nuclear submarine can take out all of Europe or all of the Soviet Union.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:50Because it has multiple nukes on it? Richard Rhodes 0:42:53Because they have 16 intercontinental ballistic missiles with MIRV warheads, at least three per missile. Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:02Wow. I had a former guest, Richard Hanania, who has a book about foreign policy where he points out that our model of thinking about why countries do the things they do, especially in foreign affairs, is wrong because we think of them as individual rational actors, when in fact it's these competing factions within the government. And in fact, you see this especially in the case of Japan in World War II, there was a great book of Japan leading up to World War II, where they talk about how a branch of the Japanese military, I forget which, needed more oil to continue their campaign in Manchuria so they forced these other branches to escalate. But it's so interesting that the reason we have so many nukes is that the different branches are competing for funding. Richard Rhodes 0:43:50Douhet, the theorist of air power, had been in the trenches in the First World War. Somebody (John Masefield) called the trenches of the First World War, the long grave already dug, because millions of men were killed and the trenches never moved, a foot this way, a foot that way, all this horror. And Douhet came up with the idea that if you could fly over the battlefield to the homeland of the enemy and destroy his capacity to make war, then the people of that country, he theorized, would rise up in rebellion and throw out their leaders and sue for peace. And this became the dream of all the Air Forces of the world, but particularly ours. Until around 1943, it was called the US Army Air Force. The dream of every officer in the Air Force was to get out from under the Army, not just be something that delivers ground support or air support to the Army as it advances, but a power that could actually win wars. And the missing piece had always been the scale of the weaponry they carried. So when the bomb came along, you can see why Curtis LeMay, who ran the strategic air command during the prime years of that force, was pushing for bigger and bigger bombs. Because if a plane got shot down, but the one behind it had a hydrogen bomb, then it would be just almost as effective as the two planes together. So they wanted big bombs. And they went after Oppenheimer because he thought that was a terrible way to go, that there was really no military use for these huge weapons. Furthermore, the United States had more cities than Russia did, than the Soviet Union did. And we were making ourselves a better target by introducing a weapon that could destroy a whole state. I used to live in Connecticut and I saw a map that showed the air pollution that blew up from New York City to Boston. And I thought, well, now if that was fallout, we'd be dead up here in green, lovely Connecticut. That was the scale that it was going to be with these big new weapons. So on the one hand, you had some of the important leaders in the government thinking that these weapons were not the war-winning weapons that the Air Force wanted them and realized they could be. And on the other hand, you had the Air Force cornering the market on nuclear solutions to battles. All because some guy in a trench in World War I was sufficiently horrified and sufficiently theoretical about what was possible with air power. Remember, they were still flying biplanes. When H.G. Wells wrote his novel, The World Set Free in 1913, predicting an atomic war that would lead to world government, he had Air Forces delivering atomic bombs, but he forgot to update his planes. The guys in the back seat, the bombardiers, were sitting in a biplane, open cockpit. And when the pilots had dropped the bomb, they would reach down and pick up H.G. Wells' idea of an atomic bomb and throw it over the side. Which is kind of what was happening in Washington after the war. And it led us to a terribly misleading and unfortunate perspective on how many weapons we needed, which in turn fermented the arms race with the Soviets and just chased off. In the Soviet Union, they had a practical perspective on factories. Every factory was supposed to produce 120% of its target every year. That was considered good Soviet realism. And they did that with their nuclear war weapons. So by the height of the Cold War, they had 75,000 nuclear weapons, and nobody had heard yet of nuclear winter. So if both sides had set off this string of mass traps that we had in our arsenals, it would have been the end of the human world without question. Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:27It raises an interesting question, if the military planners thought that the conventional nuclear weapon was like the fire bombing, would it have been the case that if there wasn't a thermonuclear weapon, that there actually would have been a nuclear war by now because people wouldn't have been thinking of it as this hard red line? Richard Rhodes 0:48:47I don't think so because we're talking about one bomb versus 400, and one plane versus 400 planes and thousands of bombs. That scale was clear. Deterrence was the more important business. Everyone seemed to understand even the spies that the Soviets had connected up to were wholesaling information back to the Soviet Union. There's this comic moment when Truman is sitting with Joseph Stalin at Potsdam, and he tells Stalin, we have a powerful new weapon. And that's as much as he's ready to say about it. And Stalin licks at him and says, “Good, I hope you put it to good use with the Japanese.” Stalin knows exactly what he's talking about. He's seen the design of the fat man type Nagasaki plutonium bomb. He has held it in his hands because they had spies all over the place. (0:49:44) - Stalin & the Soviet programDwarkesh Patel 0:49:44How much longer would it have taken the Soviets to develop the bomb if they didn't have any spies? Richard Rhodes 0:49:49Probably not any longer. Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:51Really? Richard Rhodes 0:49:51When the Soviet Union collapsed in the winter of ‘92, I ran over there as quickly as I could get over there. In this limbo between forming a new kind of government and some of the countries pulling out and becoming independent and so forth, their nuclear scientists, the ones who'd worked on their bombs were free to talk. And I found that out through Yelena Bonner, Andrei Sakharov's widow, who was connected to people I knew. And she said, yeah, come on over. Her secretary, Sasha, who was a geologist about 35 years old became my guide around the country. We went to various apartments. They were retired guys from the bomb program and were living on, as far as I could tell, sac-and-potatoes and some salt. They had government pensions and the money was worth a salt, all of a sudden. I was buying photographs from them, partly because I needed the photographs and partly because 20 bucks was two months' income at that point. So it was easy for me and it helped them. They had first class physicists in the Soviet Union, they do in Russian today. They told me that by 1947, they had a design for a bomb that they said was half the weight and twice the yield of the Fat Man bomb. The Fat Man bomb was the plutonium implosion, right? And it weighed about 9,000 pounds. They had a much smaller and much more deliverable bomb with a yield of about 44 kilotons. Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:41Why was Soviet physics so good?Richard Rhodes 0:51:49The Russian mind? I don't know. They learned all their technology from the French in the 19th century, which is why there's so many French words in Russian. So they got good teachers, the French are superb technicians, they aren't so good at building things, but they're very good at designing things. There's something about Russia, I don't know if it's the language or the education. They do have good education, they did. But I remember asking them when they were working, I said — On the hydrogen bomb, you didn't have any computers yet. We only had really early primitive computers to do the complicated calculations of the hydrodynamics of that explosion. I said, “What did you do?” They said, “Oh, we just used nuclear. We just used theoretical physics.” Which is what we did at Los Alamos. We had guys come in who really knew their math and they would sit there and work it out by hand. And women with old Marchant calculators running numbers. So basically they were just good scientists and they had this new design. Kurchatov who ran the program took Lavrentiy Beria, who ran the NKVD who was put in charge of the program and said — “Look, we can build you a better bomb. You really wanna waste the time to make that much more uranium and plutonium?” And Beria said, “Comrade, I want the American bomb. Give me the American bomb or you and all your families will be camp dust.” I talked to one of the leading scientists in the group and he said, we valued our lives, we valued our families. So we gave them a copy of the plutonium implosion bomb. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:37Now that you explain this, when the Soviet Union fell, why didn't North Korea, Iran or another country, send a few people to the fallen Soviet Union to recruit a few of the scientists to start their own program? Or buy off their stockpiles or something. Or did they?Richard Rhodes 0:53:59There was some effort by countries in the Middle East to get all the enriched uranium, which they wouldn't sell them. These were responsible scientists. They told me — we worked on the bomb because you had it and we didn't want there to be a monopoly on the part of any country in the world. So patriotically, even though Stalin was in charge of our country, he was a monster. We felt that it was our responsibility to work on these things, even Sakharov. There was a great rush at the end of the Second World War to get hold of German scientists. And about an equal number were grabbed by the Soviets. All of the leading German scientists, like Heisenberg and Hans and others, went west as fast as they could. They didn't want to be captured by the Soviets. But there were some who were. And they helped them work. People have the idea that Los Alamos was where the bomb happened. And it's true that at Los Alamos, we had the team that designed, developed, and built the first actual weapons. But the truth is, the important material for weapons is the uranium or plutonium. One of the scientists in the Manhattan Project told me years later, you can make a pretty high-level nuclear explosion just by taking two subcritical pieces of uranium, putting one on the floor and dropping the other by hand from a height of about six feet. If that's true, then all this business about secret designs and so forth is hogwash. What you really need for a weapon is the critical mass of highly enriched uranium, 90% of uranium-235. If you've got that, there are lots of different ways to make the bomb. We had two totally different ways that we used. The gun on the one hand for uranium, and then because plutonium was so reactive that if you fired up the barrel of a cannon at 3,000 feet per second, it would still melt down before the two pieces made it up. So for that reason, they had to invent an entirely new technology, which was an amazing piece of work. From the Soviet point of view, and I think this is something people don't know either, but it puts the Russian experience into a better context. All the way back in the 30s, since the beginning of the Soviet Union after the First World War, they had been sending over espionage agents connected up to Americans who were willing to work for them to collect industrial technology. They didn't have it when they began their country. It was very much an agricultural country. And in that regard, people still talk about all those damn spies stealing our secrets, we did the same thing with the British back in colonial days. We didn't know how to make a canal that wouldn't drain out through the soil. The British had a certain kind of clay that they would line their canals with, and there were canals all over England, even in the 18th century, that were impervious to the flow of water. And we brought a British engineer at great expense to teach us how to make the lining for the canals that opened up the Middle West and then the West. So they were doing the same thing. And one of those spies was a guy named Harry Gold, who was working all the time for them. He gave them some of the basic technology of Kodak filmmaking, for example. Harry Gold was the connection between David Greenglass and one of the American spies at Los Alamos and the Soviet Union. So it was not different. The model was — never give us something that someone dreamed of that hasn't been tested and you know works. So it would actually be blueprints for factories, not just a patent. And therefore when Beria after the war said, give us the bomb, he meant give me the American bomb because we know that works. I don't trust you guys. Who knows what you'll do. You're probably too stupid anyway. He was that kind of man. So for all of those reasons, they built the second bomb they tested was twice the yield and half the way to the first bomb. In other words, it was their new design. And so it was ours because the technology was something that we knew during the war, but it was too theoretical still to use. You just had to put the core and have a little air gap between the core and the explosives so that the blast wave would have a chance to accelerate through an open gap. And Alvarez couldn't tell me what it was but he said, you can get a lot more destructive force with a hammer if you hit something with it, rather than if you put the head on the hammer and push. And it took me several years before I figured out what he meant. I finally understood he was talking about what's called levitation.Dwarkesh Patel 0:59:41On the topic that the major difficulty in developing a bomb is either the refinement of uranium into U-235 or its transmutation into plutonium, I was actually talking to a physicist in preparation for this conversation. He explained the same thing that if you get two subcritical masses of uranium together, you wouldn't have the full bomb because it would start to tear itself apart without the tamper, but you would still have more than one megaton.Richard Rhodes 1:00:12It would be a few kilotons. Alvarez's model would be a few kilotons, but that's a lot. Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:20Yeah, sorry I meant kiloton. He claimed that one of the reasons why we talk so much about Los Alamos is that at the time the government didn't want other countries to know that if you refine uranium, you've got it. So they were like, oh, we did all this fancy physics work in Los Alamos that you're not gonna get to, so don't even worry about it. I don't know what you make of that theory. That basically it was sort of a way to convince people that Los Alamos was important. Richard Rhodes 1:00:49I think all the physics had been checked out by a lot of different countries by then. It was pretty clear to everybody what you needed to do to get to a bomb. That there was a fast fusion reaction, not a slow fusion reaction, like a reactor. They'd worked that out. So I don't think that's really the problem. But to this day, no one ever talks about the fact that the real problem isn't the design of the weapon. You could make one with wooden boxes if you wanted to. The problem is getting the material. And that's good because it's damned hard to make that stuff. And it's something you can protect. Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:30We also have gotten very lucky, if lucky is the word you want to use. I think you mentioned this in the book at some point, but the laws of physics could have been such that unrefined uranium ore was enough to build a nuclear weapon, right? In some sense, we got lucky that it takes a nation-state level actor to really refine and produce the raw substance. Richard Rhodes 1:01:56Yeah, I was thinking about that this morning on the way over. And all the uranium in the world would already have destroyed itself. Most people have never heard of the living reactors that developed on their own in a bed of uranium ore in Africa about two billion years ago, right? When there was more U-235 in a mass of uranium ore than there is today, because it decays like all radioactive elements. And the French discovered it when they were mining the ore and found this bed that had a totally different set of nuclear characteristics. They were like, what happened? But there were natural reactors in Gabon once upon a time. And they started up because some water, a moderator to make the neutrons slow down, washed its way down through a bed of much more highly enriched uranium ore than we still have today. Maybe 5-10% instead of 3.5 or 1.5, whatever it is now. And they ran for about 100,000 years and then shut themselves down because they had accumulated enough fusion products that the U-235 had been used up. Interestingly, this material never migrated out of the bed of ore. People today who are anti-nuclear say, well, what are we gonna do about the waste? Where are we gonna put all that waste? It's silly. Dwarkesh Patel 1:03:35Shove it in a hole. Richard Rhodes 1:03:36Yeah, basically. That's exactly what we're planning to do. Holes that are deep enough and in beds of material that will hold them long enough for everything to decay back to the original ore. It's not a big problem except politically because nobody wants it in their backyard.Dwarkesh Patel 1:03:53On the topic of the Soviets, one question I had while reading the book was — we negotiated with Stalin at Yalta and we surrendered a large part of Eastern Europe to him under his sphere of influence. And obviously we saw 50 years of immiseration there as a result. Given the fact that only we had the bomb, would it have been possible that we could have just knocked out the Soviet Union or at least prevented so much of the world from succumbing to communism in the aftermath of World War II? Is that a possibility? Richard Rhodes 1:04:30When we say we had the bomb, we had a few partly assembled handmade bombs. It took almost as long to assemble one as the battery life of the batteries that would drive the original charge that would set off the explosion. It was a big bluff. You know, when they closed Berlin in 1948 and we had to supply Berlin by air with coal and food for a whole winter, we moved some B-29s to England. The B-29 being the bomber that had carried the bombs. They were not outfitted for nuclear weapons. They didn't have the same kind of bomb-based structure. The weapons that were dropped in Japan had a single hook that held the entire bomb. So when the bay opened and the hook was released, the thing dropped. And that's very different from dropping whole rows of small bombs that you've seen in the photographs and the film footage. So it was a big bluff on our part. We took some time after the war inevitably to pull everything together. Here was a brand new technology. Here was a brand new weapon. Who was gonna be in charge of it? The military wanted control, Truman wasn't about to give the military control. He'd been an artillery officer in the First World War. He used to say — “No, damn artillery captain is gonna start World War III when I'm president.” I grew up in the same town he lived in so I know his accent. Independence, Missouri. Used to see him at his front steps taking pictures with tourists while he was still president. He used to step out on the porch and let the tourists take photographs. About a half a block from my Methodist church where I went to church. It was interesting. Interestingly, his wife was considered much more socially acceptable than he was. She was from an old family in independence, Missouri. And he was some farmer from way out in Grandview, Missouri, South of Kansas City. Values. Anyway, at the end of the war, there was a great rush from the Soviet side of what was already a zone. There was a Soviet zone, a French zone, British zone and an American zone. Germany was divided up into those zones to grab what's left of the uranium ore that the Germans had stockpiled. And there was evidence that there was a number of barrels of the stuff in a warehouse somewhere in the middle of all of this. And there's a very funny story about how the Russians ran in and grabbed off one site full of uranium ore, this yellow black stuff in what were basically wine barrels. And we at the same night, just before the wall came down between the zones, were running in from the other side, grabbing some other ore and then taking it back to our side. But there was also a good deal of requisitioning of German scientists. And the ones who had gotten away early came West, but there were others who didn't and ended up helping the Soviets. And they were told, look, you help us build the reactors and the uranium separation systems that we need. And we'll let you go home and back to your family, which they did. Early 50s by then, the German scientists who had helped the Russians went home. And I think our people stayed here and brought their families over, I don't know. (1:08:24) - Deterrence, disarmament, North Korea, TaiwanDwarkesh Patel 1:08:24Was there an opportunity after the end of World War II, before the Soviets developed the bomb, for the US to do something where either it somehow enforced a monopoly on having the bomb, or if that wasn't possible, make some sort of credible gesture that, we're eliminating this knowledge, you guys don't work on this, we're all just gonna step back from this. Richard Rhodes 1:08:50We tried both before the war. General Groves, who had the mistaken impression that there was a limited amount of high-grade uranium ore in the world, put together a company that tried to corner the market on all the available supply. For some reason, he didn't realize that a country the size of the Soviet Union is going to have some uranium ore somewhere. And of course it did, in Kazakhstan, rich uranium ore, enough for all the bombs they wanted to build. But he didn't know that, and I frankly don't know why he didn't know that, but I guess uranium's use before the Second World War was basically as a glazing agent for pottery, that famous yellow pottery and orange pottery that people owned in the 1930s, those colors came from uranium, and they're sufficiently radioactive, even to this day, that if you wave a Geiger counter over them, you get some clicks. In fact, there have been places where they've gone in with masks and suits on, grabbed the Mexican pottery and taken it out in a lead-lined case. People have been so worried about it but that was the only use for uranium, to make a particular kind of glass. So once it became clear that there was another use for uranium, a much more important one, Groves tried to corner the world market, and he thought he had. So that was one effort to limit what the Soviet Union could do. Another was to negotiate some kind of agreement between the parties. That was something that really never got off the ground, because the German Secretary of State was an old Southern politician and he didn't trust the Soviets. He went to the first meeting, in Geneva in ‘45 after the war was over, and strutted around and said, well, I got the bomb in my pocket, so let's sit down and talk here. And the Soviet basically said, screw you. We don't care. We're not worried about your bomb. Go home. So that didn't work. Then there was the effort to get the United Nations to start to develop some program of international control. And the program was proposed originally by a committee put together by our State Department that included Robert Oppenheimer, rightly so, because the other members of the committee were industrialists, engineers, government officials, people with various kinds of expertise around the very complicated problems of technology and the science and, of course, the politics, the diplomacy. In a couple of weeks, Oppenheimer taught them the basics of the nuclear physics involved and what he knew about bomb design, which was everything, actually, since he'd run Los Alamos. He was a scientist during the war. And they came up with a plan. People have scoffed ever since at what came to be called the Acheson-Lilienthal plan named after the State Department people. But it's the only plan I think anyone has ever devised that makes real sense as to how you could have international control without a world government. Every country would be open to inspection by any agency that was set up. And the inspections would not be at the convenience of the country. But whenever the inspectors felt they needed to inspect. So what Oppenheimer called an open world. And if you had that, and then if each country then developed its own nuclear industries, nuclear power, medical uses, whatever, then if one country tried clandestinely to begin to build bombs, you would know about it at the time of the next inspection. And then you could try diplomacy. If that didn't work, you could try conventional war. If that wasn't sufficient, then you could start building your bombs too. And at the end of this sequence, which would be long enough, assuming that there were no bombs existing in the world, and the ore was stored in a warehouse somewhere, six months maybe, maybe a year, it would be time for everyone to scale up to deterrence with weapons rather than deterrence without weapons, with only the knowledge. That to me is the answer to the whole thing. And it might have worked. But there were two big problems. One, no country is going to allow a monopoly on a nuclear weapon, at least no major power. So the Russians were not willing to sign on from the beginning. They just couldn't. How could they? We would not have. Two, Sherman assigned a kind of a loudmouth, a wise old Wall Street guy to present this program to the United Nations. And he sat down with Oppenheimer after he and his people had studied and said, where's your army? Somebody starts working on a bomb over there. You've got to go in and take that out, don't you? He said, what would happen if one country started building a bomb? Oppenheimer said, well, that would be an act of war. Meaning then the other countries could begin to escalate as they needed to to protect themselves against one power, trying to overwhelm the rest. Well, Bernard Baruch was the name of the man. He didn't get it. So when he presented his revised version of the Acheson–Lilienthal Plan, which was called the Baruch Plan to the United Nations, he included his army. And he insisted that the United States would not give up its nuclear monopoly until everyone else had signed on. So of course, who's going to sign on to that deal? Dwarkesh Patel 1:15:24I feel he has a point in the sense that — World War II took five years or more. If we find that the Soviets are starting to develop a bomb, it's not like within the six months or a year or whatever, it would take them to start refining the ore. And to the point we found out that they've been refining ore to when we start a war and engage in it, and doing all the diplomacy. By that point, they might already have the bomb. And so we're behind because we dismantled our weapons. We are only starting to develop our weapons once we've exhausted these other avenues. Richard Rhodes 1:16:00Not to develop. Presumably we would have developed. And everybody would have developed anyway. Another way to think of this is as delayed delivery times. Takes about 30 minutes to get an ICBM from Central Missouri to Moscow. That's the time window for doing anything other than starting a nuclear war. So take the warhead off those missiles and move it down the road 10 miles. So then it takes three hours. You've got to put the warhead back on the missiles. If the other side is willing to do this too. And you both can watch and see. We require openness. A word Bohr introduced to this whole thing. In order to make this happen, you can't have secrets. And of course, as time passed on, we developed elaborate surveillance from space, surveillance from planes, and so forth. It would not have worked in 1946 for sure. The surveillance wasn't there. But that system is in place today. The International Atomic Energy Agency has detected systems in air, in space, underwater. They can detect 50 pounds of dynamite exploded in England from Australia with the systems that we have in place. It's technical rather than human resources. But it's there. So it's theoretically possible today to get started on such a program. Except, of course, now, in like 1950, the world is awash in nuclear weapons. Despite the reductions that have occurred since the end of the Cold War, there's still 30,000-40,000 nuclear weapons in the world. Way too many. Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:01Yeah. That's really interesting. What percentage of warheads do you think are accounted for by this organization? If there's 30,000 warheads, what percentage are accounted for? Richard Rhodes 1:18:12All.Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:12Oh. Really?  North Korea doesn't have secrets? Richard Rhodes 1:18:13They're allowed to inspect anywhere without having to ask the government for permission. Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:18But presumably not North Korea or something, right? Richard Rhodes 1:18:21North Korea is an exception. But we keep pretty good track of North Korea needless to say. Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:27Are you surprised with how successful non-proliferation has been? The number of countries with nuclear weapons has not gone up for decades. Given the fact, as you were talking about earlier, it's simply a matter of refining or transmuting uranium. Is it surprising that there aren't more countries that have it?Richard Rhodes 1:18:42That's really an interesting part. Again, a part of the story that most people have never really heard. In the 50s, before the development and signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which was 1968 and it took effect in 1970, a lot of countries that you would never have imagined were working on nuclear weapons. Sweden, Norway, Japan, South Korea. They had the technology. They just didn't have the materials. It was kind of dicey about what you should do. But I interviewed some of the Swedish scientists who worked on their bomb and they said, well, we were just talking about making some tactical

Two ways to support Common Prayer DailyBecome a Patron on PatreonMake a One-Time DonationVisit our website for a beautiful Daily Office Experience and More - www.commonprayerdaily.com----------------------Tuesday - Easter Week 6Opening Words:“If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.”Colossians 3:1 (ESV) Confession:Let us humbly confess our sins unto Almighty God.Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen.Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen. The InvitatoryLord, open our lips.And our mouth shall proclaim your praise.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Pascha Nostrum (Christ our Passover)Alleluia. The Lord is risen indeed:Come let us adore him. Alleluia.Alleluia. Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us; *therefore let us keep the feast,Not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, *but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. Alleluia.Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; *death no longer has dominion over him.The death that he died, he died to sin, once for all; *but the life he lives, he lives to God.So also consider yourselves dead to sin, *and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord. Alleluia.Christ has been raised from the dead, *the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.For since by a man came death, *by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.For as in Adam all die, *so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Alleluia.Alleluia. The Lord is risen indeed:Come let us adore him. Alleluia. The PsalterPsalm 78:1-39Part IAttendite, popule1Hear my teaching, O my people; *incline your ears to the words of my mouth.2I will open my mouth in a parable; *I will declare the mysteries of ancient times.3That which we have heard and known,and what our forefathers have told us, *we will not hide from their children.4We will recount to generations to comethe praiseworthy deeds and the power of the Lord, *and the wonderful works he has done.5He gave his decrees to Jacoband established a law for Israel, *which he commanded them to teach their children;6That the generations to come might know,and the children yet unborn; *that they in their turn might tell it to their children;7So that they might put their trust in God, *and not forget the deeds of God,but keep his commandments;8And not be like their forefathers,a stubborn and rebellious generation, *a generation whose heart was not steadfast,and whose spirit was not faithful to God.9The people of Ephraim, armed with the bow, *turned back in the day of battle;10They did not keep the covenant of God, *and refused to walk in his law;11They forgot what he had done, *and the wonders he had shown them.12He worked marvels in the sight of their forefathers, *in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan.13He split open the sea and let them pass through; *he made the waters stand up like walls.14He led them with a cloud by day, *and all the night through with a glow of fire.15He split the hard rocks in the wilderness *and gave them drink as from the great deep.16He brought streams out of the cliff, *and the waters gushed out like rivers.17But they went on sinning against him, *rebelling in the desert against the Most High.18They tested God in their hearts, *demanding food for their craving.19They railed against God and said, *“Can God set a table in the wilderness?20True, he struck the rock, the waters gushed out, and the gullies overflowed; *but is he able to give breador to provide meat for his people?”21When the Lord heard this, he was full of wrath; *a fire was kindled against Jacob,and his anger mounted against Israel;22For they had no faith in God, *nor did they put their trust in his saving power.23So he commanded the clouds above *and opened the doors of heaven.24He rained down manna upon them to eat *and gave them grain from heaven.25So mortals ate the bread of angels; *he provided for them food enough.26He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens *and led out the south wind by his might.27He rained down flesh upon them like dust *and wingèd birds like the sand of the sea.28He let it fall in the midst of their camp *and round about their dwellings.29So they ate and were well filled, *for he gave them what they craved.30But they did not stop their craving, *though the food was still in their mouths.31So God's anger mounted against them; *he slew their strongest menand laid low the youth of Israel.32In spite of all this, they went on sinning *and had no faith in his wonderful works.33So he brought their days to an end like a breath *and their years in sudden terror.34Whenever he slew them, they would seek him, *and repent, and diligently search for God.35They would remember that God was their rock, *and the Most High God their redeemer.36But they flattered him with their mouths *and lied to him with their tongues.37Their heart was not steadfast toward him, *and they were not faithful to his covenant.38But he was so merciful that he forgave their sinsand did not destroy them; *many times he held back his angerand did not permit his wrath to be roused.39For he remembered that they were but flesh, *a breath that goes forth and does not return. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: *as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. LessonsDeuteronomy 8:11-2011 “Take care lest you forget the Lord your God by not keeping his commandments and his rules and his statutes, which I command you today, 12 lest, when you have eaten and are full and have built good houses and live in them, 13 and when your herds and flocks multiply and your silver and gold is multiplied and all that you have is multiplied, 14 then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, 15 who led you through the great and terrifying wilderness, with its fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water, who brought you water out of the flinty rock, 16 who fed you in the wilderness with manna that your fathers did not know, that he might humble you and test you, to do you good in the end. 17 Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth.' 18 You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth, that he may confirm his covenant that he swore to your fathers, as it is this day. 19 And if you forget the Lord your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you today that you shall surely perish. 20 Like the nations that the Lord makes to perish before you, so shall you perish, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God. James 1:16-2716 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. 18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.The Word of the Lord.Thanks Be To God. Cantemus Domino (The Song of Moses)I will sing to the Lord, for he is lofty and uplifted; *the horse and its rider has he hurled into the sea.The Lord is my strength and my refuge; *the Lord has become my Savior.This is my God and I will praise him, *the God of my people and I will exalt him.The Lord is a mighty warrior; *Yahweh is his Name.The chariots of Pharaoh and his army has he hurled into the sea; *the finest of those who bear armor have been drowned in the Red Sea.The fathomless deep has overwhelmed them; *they sank into the depths like a stone.Your right hand, O Lord, is glorious in might; *your right hand, O Lord, has overthrown the enemy.Who can be compared with you, O Lord, among the gods? *who is like you, glorious in holiness,awesome in renown, and worker of wonders?You stretched forth your right hand; *the earth swallowed them up.With your constant love you led the people you redeemed; *with your might you brought them in safety to your holy dwelling.You will bring them in and plant them *on the mount of your possession,The resting-place you have made for yourself, O Lord, *the sanctuary, O Lord, that your hand has established.The Lord shall reign *for ever and for ever.Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:as it was in the beginning, is now, and will be for ever. Amen. The Apostles CreedI believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. The PrayersLord, have mercy.Christ, have mercyLord, have mercyOur Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever and ever. Amen. The SuffragesO Lord, show your mercy upon us;And grant us your salvation.O Lord, guide those who govern usAnd lead us in the way of justice and truth.Clothe your ministers with righteousnessAnd let your people sing with joy.O Lord, save your peopleAnd bless your inheritance.Give peace in our time, O LordAnd defend us by your mighty power.Let not the needy, O Lord, be forgottenNor the hope of the poor be taken away.Create in us clean hearts, O GodAnd take not your Holy Spirit from us. Take a moment of silence at this time to reflect and pray for others. The CollectsThe Sixth Week of EasterO God, you have prepared for those who love you such good things as surpass our understanding: Pour into our hearts such love towards you, that we, loving you in all things and above all things, may obtain your promises, which exceed all that we can desire; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen. Daily Collects:A Collect for PeaceO God, the author of peace and lover of concord, to know you is eternal life and to serve you is perfect freedom: Defend us, your humble servants, in all assaults of our enemies; that we, surely trusting in your defense, may not fear the power of any adversaries, through the might of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.A Collect for GraceO Lord, our heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting God, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day: Defend us by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin nor run into any danger; and that, guided by your Spirit, we may do what is righteous in your sight; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.Prayer for MissionAlmighty and everlasting God, who alone works great marvels: Send down upon our clergy and the congregations committed to their charge the life-giving Spirit of your grace, shower them with the continual dew of your blessing, and ignite in them a zealous love of your Gospel; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. General ThanksgivingAlmighty God, Father of all mercies, we your unworthy servants give you humble thanks for all your goodness and loving-kindness to us and to all whom you have made. We bless you for our creation, preservation, and all the blessings of this life; but above all for your immeasurable love in the redemption of the world by our Lord Jesus Christ; for the means of grace, and for the hope of glory. And, we pray, give us such an awareness of your mercies, that with truly thankful hearts we may show forth your praise, not only with our lips, but in our lives, by giving up our selves to your service, and by walking before you in holiness and righteousness all our days; Through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Spirit, be honor and glory throughout all ages. Amen. A Prayer of St. John ChrysostomAlmighty God, you have given us grace at this time, with one accord to make our common supplications to you; and you have promised through your well-beloved Son that when two or three are gathered together in his Name you will grant their requests: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen. DismissalLet us bless the LordThanks be to God!Alleluia, Alleluia! BenedictionThe grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore. Amen*.* Scripture quotations are from The ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved.Psalms taken from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer by the Episcopal Church.The reading plan based is based on the 1979 Daily Office Lectionary Year A

Carmen Canales  00:03Hello, I'm Carmen Canales, Senior Vice President and Chief People and Belonging Officer at Novant Health. Welcome to Talent Talk, a podcast that focuses on leadership strategies for engagement, development, and retention for the modern workforce. In each episode of Talent Talk, I'll interview a different leader about their transformational practices in leading teams in support of our patients and our communities. These conversations will leave you with a few key takeaways and actions you can put into place on your own teams. Our guest today is Dr. David priest, Senior Vice President of Safety, Quality, and Epidemiology at Novant Health. Welcome, Dr. Priest. Dr. David Priest  00:52Thank you, Carmen, excited to be here. Carmen Canales  00:54Dr. Priest, will you tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey to Novant Health and your journey into healthcare? Dr. David Priest  01:01Yeah, absolutely. So, I am an infectious diseases physician., I practice clinically in the greater Winston-Salem market. Back as early as high school thought I had some interest in going into medicine. And my first desire was actually to become a pediatrician. And I think I did that just because in high school, if you told girls that you were going to become a pediatrician, they all said, “Aww, isn't that sweet?” And great, right? That's, that's the very noble calling I had into medicine was probably just getting dates in high school. But thankfully, I got through what can be a difficult pre-medical time and all of that just kind of stayed on the train. And the funny thing is I went into adult infectious diseases, which is almost the opposite end of pediatrics. But I was really interested actually in oncology for a time. And Leukemia was actually the, the thing that I did a lot of in training and enjoyed caring for those with leukemia, but I got interested in the infections again. And then I got really interested in caring for those with HIV AIDS. And that's who I still love to care for. And they do so well now and that's very, very rewarding. So, I ended up over in the infectious disease world. I was in private practice for a time in Charlotte. So, I've had the privilege of being on, on the medical staff in several hospitals within the Novant Health system, which has really helped me in my current role. And then as an infectious disease physician, I started doing some system work in infection prevention and antimicrobial stewardship. And then that led to my current role as the Chief Safety and Quality Officer. Carmen Canales  02:43Wonderful! Well, that's fascinating. So, the past couple of years certainly have been really interesting for all of us, especially people in frontline roles and in leadership roles. And I would say that you have to have a little bit of both there. Will you tell us about your leadership style? And your approach to leadership in general? How has it changed throughout the pandemic, if at all? Dr. David Priest  03:06Yeah, what a great question. So I think it has changed. In a lot of ways, I've told people that I was in this role of just for about a year when the pandemic hit. And so, I think in many ways, the pandemic accelerated my leadership journey. And in other ways it hampered it, right? Because there were things that I just didn't have time to grow into or learn about. And so, you know, in some ways, people knew who I was now, and it just happened to be that with a pandemic hit, the Chief Safety and Quality Officer was an infectious disease doctor. And that worked out for me and I hopefully for the organization, but then there were things that I thought I just didn't get to and probably stunted my leadership growth in some ways. Fortunately, I had a very veteran team that was in our institute that it was regulatory or clinical excellence or infection prevention, that those leaders were continuing to do what they do and do it very well. And that allowed me to kind of focus on, on a lot of things in the pandemic. So, I do think it's changed in some ways, probably all along my leadership approach is to be is to be low drama, not, don't get too high, don't get too low. I want the team to know what to expect from me day-to-day and what to emotionally expect from me. I don't want them to have to manage me or my mood, right? You hear about leaders, I say, oh, was he in a good mood today? Is he in a good mood today? Or you know how he is, you know? I didn't want I want to be like that. I want to be very consistent and approachable. I think one thing we learn from the pandemic as it pertains to leadership is just reiterating the importance of communication. You know, and when Carl and you, Carmen, and others have been leading these calls, communication is so important. I think was one of the strengths of the organization through the pandemic. Carl's call was every week and people really pulling together to do the right thing. And so I realized as a leader communication was, was super important. And very precise communication. You know, we have all we have so much in the way of communication these days, cell phones and computers and tweeting and all that stuff, and yet, it becomes very imprecise. And then you have to be very specific when you're communicating. So, I try to be specific in my communication. You know, a few other little tidbits I use as a leader, one is, I tried to give credit, where credit's due. I have this great fear of taking credit for something that I didn't do. And I want my teams to get credit for what they do. I try to overdo "thank you' s", you know, thank people publicly…it's a good idea, and not in a manipulative way. But when they deserve it, you got to thank them. I tell our teams, you know, try to live like you've got nothing to prove or trying to lead, like, you've got nothing to prove, you know. I think if I got hit by a bus tomorrow, I did alright. You know, and so I don't have to prove anything, or climb over anybody or climb up some ladders. If we all kind of just acted like we didn't have anything else left to prove that, would I think really kind of keep the drama low and we really move in the right direction. And the other thing that's changed in the pandemic, in terms of my leadership is I'm much more of a cheerleader than I used to be. I didn't consider myself like a sunshine pumper at all, you know. I'm like a child of the late 80s, early 90s. And like, the culture was kind of cynical and sarcastic. And I felt a little bit like that. And during the pandemic, things...people were really down, and I thought, good golly, if I'm the cheerleader, now things must be really bad. Because I don't think of myself as a positive, "We can do this!". But I have kind of become one a little bit, which I think is just the circumstances around me changed. And I realized the importance of encouraging others and to get through it. So, those are some of the lessons I've learned during the pandemic. Carmen Canales  06:50How did you do that? How did you make the move to be more of a cheerleader, if that's not your natural inclination? Dr. David Priest  06:56Yeah, you know, I think I just realized that it was what the moment called for, you know, and I thought if, if no one else, me, people are just so cynical and pessimistic. And I understand why the world we're in and the politics and the pandemic. And just so many challenges, so many people are facing at home and at work and at school and all the things they're facing, I felt like, you know, it just changed my perspective on things. I couldn't be that kind of snarky person in the corner. If I was going to lead people, I was going to have to kind of say, appeal to, hey, there's a lot of positive going on here and we can do this. And so, it was kind of a change in mindset. That wasn't my natural way of thinking about things. And I listen, I still have a sarcastic quip in my head all the time. But, I feel like people responded to it. I think they were looking; they're looking for somebody to do that and help them and say, "We can do this. I know, it's hard, we can do it." And frankly, I think it changed because I was just inspired by what people in healthcare were doing. You know, you think about those nurses in the ICU and all that, how hard they worked. And the least I can do is to be a little more positive and try to get people to move in the right direction. So, I think it was all of those things together, probably. Carmen Canales  08:08Well, you know, what a great story for other leaders to not be set in our ways, and to really have an opportunity to be nimble to employ situational leadership. So, thank you for sharing that with us.  Dr. David Priest  08:18Yeah, absolutely.  Carmen Canales  08:19So, Dr. Priest, today's theme is "thriving through change". And I'd love to hear your thoughts about how have you seen clinical teams thrive amid change? You know, especially given the past couple of years that we've had. What have they done to create momentum and to really use this as an opportunity to thrive? Dr. David Priest  08:39Yeah, and I'll say what's one of the remarkable things about Novant about many things is how the clinical teams, despite the pandemic, have really kept their eye on the ball and caring for patients in, at a time when healthcare across the country has been really, really challenged. If you look at our annual dashboards, our annual goals, you can see what they've done not only have they have survived, they have thrived and which is pretty amazing. I mean, there's just a lot of will that they do that I think as we try to speak to clinical teams about this, this work and keep them positive and moving in the right direction, despite the changes, we try to appeal to why they went into healthcare. You know, most people that went into health care did so for the right reasons. And at their core, they still want to put the patient first, even when there's chaos and challenges and things that are really, really difficult. And it's because for many of them, healthcare is not a job, it's a calling. And so, I think when there's a time when things get really hard, and they think, "Can I do this anymore?", I think you we need to appeal to, to remember this as a calling. And we really hang our hat on that you assume the best of people and you assume their motivations are good and you appeal to that kind of best motivation. And so, I felt like if we kept them remembering or kept all of us remembering why we do this, and then we support them, then we would still get to where we needed to go. You know, we need to acknowledge problems when they occur. I think it was one of the things about Carl's call and the work that was being done during the pandemic, just transparency. This is what we know, this is what we don't know, this is the way it could go, this the way it might not go, this is why we're making this decision. People didn't always like that, got some emails and snail mail that people obviously didn't like those decisions. But I think the majority of people felt like we now see why you are doing this. We have a calling, and you seem to be working in good faith to make this better, and you are giving us information, then they can, they can say, I think they've got it, we're going to keep doing what we do. I think people in healthcare are very data driven. I think I think physicians and APPs and nurses they want to, when you show them information in a meaningful way that tells the story, and they will, they'll understand it, and then they will respond. And so, I think communication, information, transparency, appealing to what people got into medicine for, were all key to keeping us moving and caring for the patients at a time that was unprecedented in healthcare, at least in the time I've been in it. Carmen Canales  11:08So, you've talked a little bit about the importance of communication frequently and with specificity. What else would you say is important to involving a team in change, to making sure that they're a part of the process, even though ultimately, you're the leader of a particular group? Dr. David Priest  11:26Yeah, these are hard Carmen. These are really challenging for leaders, right? I think it goes on one level, it does go back to the mission, right? We remind people with the mission, it lets agree on what the mission is, even if we don't always agree about how the mission is going to be accomplished. And I think in healthcare, it's the constant reminder, at the end of this, there's a patient. And we may have this conversation in a room that's not even in a hospital or healthcare facility. But, down the line, these decisions affect someone in a bed somewhere, in a clinic somewhere. And I think all of us whether you're non-clinical, or even if you're clinical, and you're not always in the clinical space, there's this we're kind of tempted to forget that. Like, this is the family business, right? If Novant Health is a family, the family business is patients and healthcare. And so how do we constantly remember that? And so, I would say the first thing if you're going to help people kind of move through tough transitions is alright, let's all agree with what we're in the business of. And that's taking care of patients. And then once you agree, kind of on the mission, you have to think about, well, what's the method here? How do we all pull the rope in the same direction? And so, you know, I try to let people work. I don't want to be a micromanager. So as a leader, I try to say this, this is something that's yours, those, those people are often content experts more than I am in that thing. And I try to say, "Okay, this is, this is yours. You do what you want to with it, you get your team's doing, you know, the right thing with it." I don't micromanage them. At the same time, I think you can be too distant, right? So, I think it's, you know, if you are so distant, you have no clue what anybody's working on, then I think people often feel kind of alone and don't have support, but they also don't want you in their business all the time. So how do you strike knowing enough about what's happening everywhere, but not really getting in the way? And so, I think when people feel like you're there, but not too much there, then they will engage and they will change, and they will move forward. So, when you have those difficult conversations with people, you tend to be on the same page. Carmen Canales  13:29So, what tips do you have for our listeners today, Dr. Priest? How do you trust but verify? Dr. David Priest  13:35You know, I think it's again, communication, not only with your direct reports and people in the organization with patients, but I think it's having honest conversations, creating an environment where they feel like they can come to you and say, "Hey, this is where I'm stuck, I need you to move this or not move it. What do you think?" And giving them a little reason to, you know, a little room, I shouldn't say reason, a little room to fail, or not quite get through in the right way or learn a lesson. And so, I think it's, it's having those relationships where there's a lot of trust. So, where we talk about a lot, and I think you have to earn that trust by being reliable and being there. And I think when they know they can trust you with it, then I think they feel like they're part of the process. And they come to you if there's trouble. You know, and again, it can be just a quick text, "Hey, I need…let's chat a little later. I've got something I'm working on, what do you think?" And then, letting them do it. Carmen Canales  14:27So, Dr. Priest, you lead a pretty key area of the system. And so, there isn't much room for error when it comes to safety and quality. Having said that, will you tell us about a failure that you've experienced? How have you moved through it? What have you learned from it? Dr. David Priest  14:45Yeah, so you in the in the safety and quality world, we, there's some non-negotiables, right? We have a very low tolerance for failure around patient safety, right? It's too important. And so, we have to be risk averse in kind of the safety space. Whereas there's some other things we do if we're trying to innovate in a, you know, artificial intelligence product or develop something that's not touching patients, yet...we have, we're less risk averse, we're more willing to try something new. Especially if it doesn't cost a lot of money, right? Let's, let's give it a shot, right? And see how it goes. And so, if it doesn't work, we want to, we want to fail fast, and recognize that quickly, and not get too attached to it. I mean, sometimes projects become, people get very personal about them, this is my baby. And we all want this to let this go. But sometimes you got to say, look, we're all in this together, these are all our children, sometimes they don't work, and we have to kind of move on. And every year, we fail to some extent, we don't quite get to the quality metric we want to get to. We don't quite get that project in the right way. We don't get this thing off the ground. And I think we have to kind of regroup. Like I said, fail fast, understand what happened, do some do some post-event analysis, and work to try to not make that happen again. But I think in most regards, and we keep it simple and meaningful and straightforward, and we give communication, we communicate with people and give them information - we get there. I mean, year after year, we hit these quality metrics and targets because we're super-focused and pay attention to it every single day, we know the importance of the organization, and more importantly, the importance to the patients. So, you know, that's kind of the approach we take. What you do learn in healthcare is that biological systems really do not care at all about your quality metrics, or your projects. They really don't care. So, bacteria, viruses…they don't care about anything you do in quality, right? And, and human behavior is another wild card in all of that. So, between biological systems and human behavior, often things go in a direction you weren't expecting. And so, you have to have the humility to realize that all these things are very hard to anticipate, and sometimes you don't quite get there, and you try to be a little better the next time. Carmen Canales  16:57Great counsel for all of us, Dr. Priest. Research tells us that music can tap into both the right brain and left brain. Would you talk to us a little bit about your relationship with music and how does it feed your work? Dr. David Priest  17:11Yes, funny...in our institute a couple of years ago, we had to do, we wanted to do a safety quality symposium and we did it on Zoom. Unfortunately, it was in 2020, the height of the pandemic, and the theme was music. And we tried to make it a little lighter because there's so much serious stuff was going on. And so, we had people come and they were dressed up like their favorite music stars or their favorite concert t-shirt or and I gave actually a talk that was month-by-month what happened in 2020 as it relates to the pandemic. And I picked a theme song for that month, and I would play the song we'd kind of do a "name that tune" kind of thing and then I would reveal it and so I think my team knows it's pretty obvious that music plays a pretty important part of my life. And both listening to it and attempting to play it.  Carmen Canales  17:58What do you play? What do you attempt to play?  Dr. David Priest  18:00Well guitar and bass and mandolin, generally stringed instruments. There's a piano in my house I noodle with a little bit, but my, my daughter is the real the real talent. I'm kind of a just a stubborn enough guy to keep "messing with it" kind of person. You know, as far as listening goes, music is very soothing to me. So, I have vinyl records. So, on a Friday night, I will sit in my living room...vinyl is very popular now. You know, it's the number one application that's, that's not streaming right now. If you're buying something physical, vinyl is number one which is kind of amazing. But I will sit in my living room, maybe with an adult beverage, and put on records and stare out the window. And after a hard week and that's, that's very soothing to me. You know, I listen in my car. And sometimes I use music maybe to understand my own emotions, right? Elation, or melancholy, or anger...it's been a bad day I put some blues on. If it's been a better week, I put some jazz on. If I'm angry, I'll put a hard rock record on. And you know, lyrics are also very important to me, like some people listen to music and have no clue what the lyrics are. But I'm not one of those people. Like something very meaningful, or a set of words will come through...it's like poetry in a way that kind of actually will move me and I repeat and think about. And so, it's funny, it's the way my brain works. And sometimes someone will say something, and I realize it's a lyric from a song and immediately that song starts in my head or I'll start singing it to my wife and she'll get very annoyed. My brain ties words into music pretty, pretty easily. Carmen Canales  18:27Doesn't everybody think in lyrics? Dr. David Priest  19:04I do. I don't know how anybody lives without it. But so, in terms in terms of playing it, you know, I think sometimes people think that people who go into sciences or healthcare or whatever, aren't creative. But a lot of physicians and scientists are very creative, and you can almost approach music like a math problem. People with math brains sometimes are very good at music, so I don't have a lot of musical talent per se, but like I said, I'm just stubborn enough to stick with it. And I'll tell you, I shouldn't be quitting my day job as far as that goes. Carmen Canales  20:07Please don't, please don't! Do you have a favorite artist? Dr. David Priest  20:10I have a lot! And I listen to a lot of genres. Jazz on vinyl is so good! There's something about the pops in the...especially a live jazz album. But I love U2. I had the opportunity to be a guest...kind of a DJ on their Sirius XM channel in 2020, during the pandemic which was a real thrill for me. But I love all genres and have records from, from many different groups. Carmen Canales  20:38Wonderful, thank you for sharing that with us, David. And then lastly, what tips do you have on leadership? If you could leave our listeners with a few key things to think about, whether they're a new leader or a have been doing this for some time, any pro tips on leadership? Dr. David Priest  20:56I think low drama, like we talked about before, is a really important piece of it. And just day after day, they know what to expect. And you mean, you're very consistent. Even if you don't feel consistent in your own mind or your own heart, or you're not sure quite what to do. I don't mean to put on a false facade, you want to show vulnerability to your teams, and they want to be able to see that. But at the same time, you know, I think taking a deep breath and not getting too high or too low is really important. And I do think that idea of leading and living like you've got nothing to prove is a hard thing to do. Look, we all have egos, we all want to be recognized. I like awards as much as the next person. But at the end of the day, those awards aren't going to mean a whole lot, right? Your teams will remember how you treated them, not that you won awards. And so again, I'm not saying don't give me awards. They're great, but they're very fleeting, right? Speaking of music, you know, I told somebody on my team this the other day, awards are great. People need to be recognized. I understand that. But I don't know if you've ever seen this, there's a music video, Johnny Cash put out a number of years ago for a song called "Hurt". And the hurt song was originally done by Nine Inch Nails. And Johnny Cash did a version of it, much slower version of it. And in the video, there's footage of him as a young man. And there's footage of him as an old man sitting in his house, I guess, surrounded by trophies. And there's a line in the song where he says, you know, he talks about my "empire of dirt". And he's like pouring dirt out of some award he's won. I think he's recognized in his own life that these awards were nice at the time. But now at the end of my life, I don't know what they mean. But I think he would say the relationships I had with people and how I treated people whether on my team or my family or my friends or whatever, they're going to remember that. No one's going to remember these gold trinkets that you know when I'm gone won't mean anything. And so that whole, like "live like you got nothing to prove", if you can do that, and practice that, I think it's contagious, and it rubs off on people around you. Because then you don't really care about who gets credit, right? Your team can get credit because you don't care. And you're quick to recognize people when they've done a good job. And you're quick to thank them publicly. And you're quick to point out how great they're doing. And that kind of thing, I think is more important than awards. And so, I'm not always perfect at any of this, believe me. I have my days where I go home, like what the heck did I do today? But I think if I strive to do that in such a way that the team feels like I got their back, I recognize when they do good work. And I think because of that they want to be around here. That's what I try to do. And the last thing I'll say is, I would love for our team...I've told them this before, you know, let's say you got a great head coach in the NFL or on a volleyball team or whatever. When that coach accomplishes a lot or the team accomplishes a lot, people come and pick off the assistant coaches, right? I'm not a Patriots fan, per se, but Bill Belichick has coaches all over the league because he has a lot of success. And people say, "Oh, I'm gonna go pick off their assistants." I don't think it's a bad thing. I would love for members of our team to get picked off over the years, because they're doing great work. And they're going on to bigger and better things, right? I wouldn't want to hold them back. Most of them have jobs right now in our institute. That's not the last job they'll ever have. But I want them to leave because something bigger and greater and something awesome has happened because we helped facilitate that. And so, you almost have a coaching tree of your team that's spread out maybe all over the country. You can say oh yeah, we used to work in nobody is your safety quality. That's where I got my start. I learned a ton. And then I went on to this thing over here because I would love to, in my retirement days be sitting on a pier somewhere fishing and having people that work for me, calling me going, "Hey, what do I do about this?" and I'll say, "I don't know...you're screwed. I'm retired, good luck." No, I'd like them to call and say, “I really appreciate it. That was such a great time and you helped facilitate that.” So, I think thinking like that to...where is my team going and maybe they're staying there forever? That may be their calling and they want that position forever. But there'll be others who want to do other things, and why not we help them do that, whether at Novant or elsewhere if it's, it's really what they're pursuing. So, I try to have that kind of attitude, too. Let me support you and help you get to where you want to go.   Carmen Canales  25:12What a great approach to support our team members in getting to where they want to be. Whether that's in a leadership role themselves or continuing a great career here at Novant Health.   Dr. David Priest  25:21Yeah, absolutely. Novant is so big. There are often those opportunities here, right? There within the organization. And I love seeing that, hey, I'm gonna go over here and this other part of Novant, because it really speaks to my interests and my skill set. And yeah, absolutely. Let's make that happen. It's really, it's really fun to see that.   Carmen Canales  25:41We're talking about zigzag career growth, so you don't have to leave to lead.   Dr. David Priest  25:47Yeah. There's the official PC, People and Culture term, right? That I didn't know...zigzag.  Carmen Canales  25:54Well, Dr. David Priest, I'd like to thank you again for being our inaugural guest. Thank you so much for your wisdom and your perspective on leadership, and on leading change. Dr. David Priest  26:06Great. Thanks for having me. Carmen Canales  26:09I hope you enjoyed today's podcast. Make sure to look out for future episodes of "Talent Talk” where you typically listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening, and until next time, keep inspiring the talent around you!

Sex tips, porn revolutions, psychedelics, and enlightenmentAella writes at knowingless.com. Her posts and tweets provide a unique perspective about the data on sexual kinks and on being an escort & camgirl.In this episode, Aella talks about:* her escorting sex tips,* how tech will change pornography,* & whether trauma & enlightenment are realEnjoy!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. TimestampsSex Tips - (0:00:21)Porn-tech Revolutions: Tiktokified Erotica? - (0:02:02)Trad Christian Life - (0:05:11)Can you be Naturally Talented at Enlightenment? (0:06:52)Camgirling, Escort Marketing, & Bulk deals  - (0:09:15)Sex Work vs Student Loans  - (0:13:25)Psychedelics and Deconstructive Suffering - (0:15:30)Aella's Extreme Reading Addiction -  (0:21:08)Radically Authentic People are Hot? - (0:27:29)Some Advice for Making Better Internet Polls - (0:39:32)Hanging out with Elites - (0:43:59)Is Trauma Fake? - (0:53:49)Spawning as a Woman and Being Extremely Weird - (1:07:19)Boring Podcast Conversations - (1:12:09)TranscriptTranscript is autogeneratedDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today I have the pleasure of speaking with Ayela, who needs no introduction.Aella 0:00:07So it's Ayla. Is it actually? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:10Okay, gotcha. The first question from Twitter from Nick Camerota.Aella 0:00:14It's about banging, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:16It's right.Aella 0:00:17Smashing. As one might do in the dirty.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:21I don't see it here, but he was basically asking, there's meditators who are experts, have all kinds of like special tips. He was talking about how they know how to hold their breath or close their eyes in aAella 0:00:31particular way.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:32What do escorts know about sex that the mediocre new doesn't know?Aella 0:00:38Well, I don't know because like escorts don't necessarily have more sex. They just have sex with different people. Like if you're in a community relationship, you're probably like becoming an expert at your partner. So it's like, I guess like you're an expert at like very quickly figuring out so like what a new partner likes. So it's really dependent. It's like super dependent on like reading the person. But one is like, don't assume what they like. Because like for a while, it was like all guys like their balls fondled gently, right? You'd think this is a universal malpreference.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:11It's not. Well, it's changed or it just never was?Aella 0:01:14Well, some people are just like, get the f**k off my balls. And you're like, okay. But also like, I don't know, I like learning how to ride dick. I didn't really know how to ride dick properly before being an escort. And when I first started escort, it was terrible. I was like, like clumping kind of like in a really unattractive fashion. Maybe something about like, like enthusiasm of b*****b is better than technique or something like more important than technique. Like you don't have to be the best b*****b giver at all. But if you're just like, you know, really going to town.Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:44Yeah, it's not like dancing as well, where they say you don't have to be a dancer, just like have fun.Aella 0:01:48Yeah, not there. Yeah, a lot of it's just having fun, right? Like really, like letting loose as much as you can. These are not like really excellent, like, go get them, hit them techniques. Like probably Cosmopolitan has published all those already.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:02But the 10 things that drive your man crazy. Okay, I'm curious. There's been a lot of innovation in how movies and TV shows are shot and what kinds of plots and tropes they've used. I'm wondering over the next few decades, are you expecting what kinds of like innovations in erotic content are you expecting?Aella 0:02:22It'd be great if there were more funding for erotic content. Like if we had more money, like that would be excellent. But obviously AI. Like ignoring the funding issues. But AI clearly. Like I know that a lot of the models right now are not allowing not safe for work stuff. Do you want to like a normal pillow?Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:41Yeah, let me get her up. Leaning in like Sheryl Sandberg. Sheryl Sandberg?Aella 0:02:47Oh, she's the CEO of Facebook.Dwarkesh Patel 0:02:50Yeah, I've heard a book about leaning in. Like when you lean in. That's an escorting technique.Aella 0:02:54Well, I mean, it's just a generic seduction technique. Leaning in? Yeah. Like when I'm on it, like, usually when I'm as an escort, you meet a guy beforehand. And you're supposed to signal that you're really interested in him and leaning in.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:08Oh, yeah. Yeah. By the way, do you? This is something I'm curious about. I watched your YouTube video about tips to have more seductive behavior. Are you always doing that or is that just in very specific scenarios when you're online? But like when you go to a meetup or something?Aella 0:03:22I think there's like degrees of it. Like some of it's not just seduction. Some of it's just like normal social behavior. Like I don't think I'm doing anything right now. I'm checking. I think this is how I would normally be with like friends.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:35Right.Aella 0:03:36But I think there's like some, like there's a spectrum and obviously I turn it all the way up when I'm trying to be very seductive. But sometimes if I'm like enjoying the experience of being attractive, like trying to play into that for any reason, like pure fun, then I'll do it a little bit.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:50Usually not to that degree, though. OK. Another question I was wondering about is TikTok. Are we going to have porn that's TikTok-ified where we'll have like one minute shorts, you just scroll through.Aella 0:04:02They've tried.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:03They've really tried. Why has it not worked? Well, you can't get on app stores.Aella 0:04:08So there's not like what kind of money like your sort of market is limited, your marketDwarkesh Patel 0:04:13cap. You can just have a website, though, right?Aella 0:04:16Yeah, you can. But it really reduces the total amount of conversion for like when you're advertisingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:22it.Aella 0:04:23And they've tried it a couple of times, but they just didn't have enough people uploadingDwarkesh Patel 0:04:27things.Aella 0:04:28There are some other competitors like Sunroom right now is doing the thing that they're trying to get on the app store. But it's not porn. Like they can be optimized to be sexy, but like really right now, like the markets are not aligned such that like a porn TikTok. I mean, it's possible that if you did it really, really well, but I don't know. A lot of porn is shot this way, too.Dwarkesh Patel 0:04:49So if you want to take like pre-existing porn, it like never really looks good. I guess it depends on position as well, right? Like there's some positions where a vertical would work.Aella 0:04:58Yeah. It's like a TikTok for like only for like cowgirl standing. They have it, by the way. I don't remember if I said that, but there are products that are trying to replicateDwarkesh Patel 0:05:09TikTok for porn.Aella 0:05:10They're just not very good.Dwarkesh Patel 0:05:11Yeah, and another thing is you had to learn user behavior, but people are probably doing, you know, doing their porn and incognito. So you can't, you can't like learn their preferences that TikTok learns. Okay. People with your genetics, like your psychology, they probably existed like a hundred years ago or 200 years ago. But what would you have been doing if you were born in 1860? Because there was no OnlyFans back then, but would you have become a trad wife or what would happen?Aella 0:05:35Yeah, I probably would have been insufferable. Like I was raised Christian and so I got to see what my psychology does in like a very trad religious atmosphere and it took it very seriously. It kind of went just to the opposite extreme. I was like, ah, if I'm in this religion, like let's actually live the religion. Like we can't just like half believe in it. Like let's actually think it through, take it to the logical conclusion and live that. Yeah. And so I was like, I was maybe even a little bit more conservative than the people around me and took it very seriously.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:03Do you think if you grew up in a left wing polycule, you would have become a super trad by the time you grew up?Aella 0:06:09I doubt it. I might have become like even like a hardcore polycule, I don't know. But my guess is like I'm probably actually suited to being a polycule. Like I am more like, even when I was Christian, I was like sexually deviant and like obsessed with sex and like just I just suffered immense guilt over it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:28Yeah. What are you the Christian men you were growing up with? Did they not jerk off? Like what did they do?Aella 0:06:32Well, all of the messaging when I was growing up was for men. It's like they have like men meetups about not jerking off and s**t. Like you're not supposed to masturbate as a Christian man.Dwarkesh Patel 0:06:42But did they actually not?Aella 0:06:44A lot of them would. Well, I don't know. I never like did a survey. My impression is they probably had a lower masturbation rate than most people and feltDwarkesh Patel 0:06:52worse about it when they did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm Christian. Do you think that, so you've done these really interesting enlightenment surveys and interviews. Do you think there's people who are just naturally enlightened because they're just so stoic and happy all the time, but they just don't have the spiritual vocabulary to describe their experiences as in these sorts of like, you know, boo-hoo ways? Is it possible that the guy who's just like super stoic is like actually just enlightened?Aella 0:07:16Well, it there's different like it depends what you mean by enlightened. Like stoic and happy is like one sort of conception of enlightenment, but there's lots of differentDwarkesh Patel 0:07:23ones.Aella 0:07:24There are probably people who like I interviewed one person who seemed like they didn't do anything. They just sort of like are that way all the time. It didn't seem like it was like a thing that occurred to them with any. So yeah, probably. I mean, like, I don't think that there's any like special soul like quality about it. I think like you could probably study the science of enlightenment or whatever kind of enlightenment you're talking about. Like obviously, it's replicable with brain states. And obviously, if you are enlightened, and we went to brain surgery, we could like undoDwarkesh Patel 0:07:48that.Aella 0:07:49So in that case, like it doesn't seem impossible to me that somebody could just be born with that like naturally very close to already there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:07:56Yeah, yeah. Did you meet anybody who you felt was enlightened in the strong sense in the Buddhist sense of like, this person has no thoughts? And no, like you could set him on fire and he would not suffer.Aella 0:08:06Is that the I'm terrible at Buddhism?Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:08No, but like in that sense of like, this guy's almost a god.Aella 0:08:12I've definitely met people who report not having like an internal monologue.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:16Hmm. I don't believe them. Like they were answering questions. Yeah.Aella 0:08:20Like I've had experience times where I have no internal monologue before, but like the like responses still come out or something interesting.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:28Like there's no distance between you and what comes out.Aella 0:08:31Well, are you having an internal monologue right now? Yes. Like as you're talking, like, are there words coming in your head that aren't what you'reDwarkesh Patel 0:08:37saying? Yeah, I just I'm not self aware enough right now to observe them. But if I was, I'm pretty sure I would, because I'm thinking about what I'm gonna ask you next or how I'm like, they just yeah, you're saying, yeah, I'm not exactly sure how toAella 0:08:48interpret it. Like there's a way where my guess is the words just like kind of emerge without there being any sort of like word process that happens beforehand. Which seems like a plausible state to me, seems like not an insane thing that human brains can do. Human brains can do insane s**t, right? Like, like your internal felt sense can be so radically different, just just literally evidenced by drugs, like you just take an insane drug, your mental state can change. So we know that it's possible for the brain to be in a state where this is the case.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:15When you escort, do you charge extra to men who you find less attractive?Aella 0:09:19No, not at all. Uh, no, it feels like counter sort of my psychology. Like in my, my psychology around escorting is that it's like a job, and it doesn't have to do with my personal desires whatsoever. So if I were like charging, I don't really enjoy the same way. It's like, I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:09:39Right, right. It's like, it's like completely independent, which is necessary for me, like, I think IAella 0:09:46have to be completely independent in some way of like my actual preferences in order to do it. Like if I were actually checking in with like, what do I want in this moment? I'd probably be like, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be f*****g a stranger. So I guess like, I just can't let that in at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:00Yeah, how about both bulk discounting?Aella 0:10:03Both discounting?Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:04Discounting, like if somebody gets like a, like a lot, four straight sessions or somethingAella 0:10:08that that seems like more reasonable. That's like a business choice. I don't, I never did that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:10:13But like, I think that could do that. When I tell her how it on the podcast, we're talking about how the people who are top in any field often are smarter, because they have to think about how to get top in their field, somebody like a top YouTube creator, they've actually done a lot of analysis of how to get to the top of, you know, the leaderboards there. Yeah, are the top X-Squads and cam girls, are they noticeably smarter?Aella 0:10:35My guess is yes. Like, like, for example, the OnlyFans, I did very, very well on OnlyFans. I think that was because probably I'm like, smarter than the average. But it was surprising to me, like, especially like camming. Like, I was a cam girl and then for a long time, and this is like really, really competitive. It's competitive because you can see what other girls are doing at all times. So you know exactly what the techniques are, and the techniques proliferate much faster. And there's also stuff like branding and seduction and it's really high intensity, high pressureDwarkesh Patel 0:11:03environment.Aella 0:11:04Again, because like with camming, the site I was using, MyFreeCams, your ranking is determined by your average earnings per hour of live streaming over the past 60 days. And your rankings affect how many more people come into your room. So every time you're streaming, it's like really high pressure, because if you don't do well for an hour, this is gonna make it harder for you in the future. So it's really stressful. Anyway, so I went from that to escorting and escorting what other people are doing are not visible, or techniques are not viewable at all. And they and I think as a result of this, like low pressure, like, private slow thing, there was no ecosystem for like escort like tech strategies to really have like a highly competitive atmosphere. So I just brought all of my techniques from camming in regards to marketing, and I think I just blew it out of the water. Interesting. It was like I was shocked at how terrible the cop I was like this is what the landscape is like, like I could beat.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:54How do you figure out what the competition is like?Aella 0:11:56You just talk to people? You can look at other escort websites.Dwarkesh Patel 0:11:58Oh, yeah, sure.Aella 0:11:59And you don't exactly know how much they're earning. I did a survey where I asked about earnings.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:05But it's hard to know. What has building an escort profile? What does that talk to you about building a dating profile? Like, what advice would you give to somebody on building a Tinder or Bumble profile basedAella 0:12:15on I mean, the incentives are different. If you're building an escort profile, the thing that you want is money. Yeah, like that's what you're optimizing for on an escort or sorry, dating profile, you're optimizing for compatibility. So like with escorting, like you're trying to like, make find the kind of messaging that is appealing to the maximum number of people, which maybe is what men do when they're on a dating profile. But for me, I'm trying to alienate the correct people as as a dater. Like I don't want the people coming to me who aren't going to enjoy me actually. Like if I like did the same kind of escort advertising as I did dating, like I would just get a billion men and then like not want them because like, no, it's not I'm not like presenting my my real self like the kinds of things that are actually definitive about like what's going to make us a good match or not. So it's really all about like, sorry, dating profiles or advertising is all about likeDwarkesh Patel 0:13:04D selection.Aella 0:13:05Like how are we not going to get along here that like the deal breakers, you put them up front like. So in my dating profiles, I'm always like I'm poly, sex worker, like weird, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:15That sort of thing. Yeah, narrow casting versus broadcasting. At what age do you feel like you could have consented to sex work? Is like 18 too young, too high?Aella 0:13:25Me personally, could have consented probably 15. I don't know. Like I think like if I had if I were in like the right kind of culture and at 15, like this were available to me and I took it, I think in hindsight, I've been like, yeah,Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:38that seems like a.Aella 0:13:40Right decision that I made that I'm willing to take responsibility for.Dwarkesh Patel 0:13:43Yeah, personally, how about the difference between I guess escorting a cam girl is that when you're putting video out there, it stays there forever, escorting it just like you regret it. I guess it's not there forever. I mean, do you see a difference there or in terms of like, would you is there a different age that makes sense for both or? Oh, yeah.Aella 0:14:02I mean, it's like a little confusing. We don't really have consistent standards about like how many permanent decisions youngDwarkesh Patel 0:14:08people can make.Aella 0:14:09Like we groom young teens into paying a lot of money for college pretty early, which I consider to be like a worse decision than going into sex work. Like in regards to the permanent impact it has on your life.Dwarkesh Patel 0:14:25So I don't know.Aella 0:14:26Yeah, but yeah, I mean, in regards to like the thing is, it depends heavily on culture. Like we're in a culture where like we have a lot of incentive against doing your sex work. I'm uniquely suited to it, but a lot of women aren't. And a lot of women would like suffer actual emotional damage if they did it. And like, it's important to know that. And so if we had like a culture that like adequately informed people, if you're like, ah, like, you kind of know a little bit earlier on whether or not this is going to like destroyDwarkesh Patel 0:14:51your soul or not.Aella 0:14:54So it depends on like how much knowledge we have access to. If we had really good access to it, then I'd be like, yeah, you could probably consentDwarkesh Patel 0:14:59younger. You should actually make that a goal or you might have already had. Would you rather be $200,000 in debt at 22 or have a porn video of you out there?Aella 0:15:07I have done this. I mean, a version of this. Yes. And it was I think most people would rather have a porn video.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:11Okay.Aella 0:15:12Yeah. But again, a lot of my response, respondents are male, which might be skimming it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:16Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. So I've read this theory that if you're a medieval peasant and you encounter a beautiful church symphony for the first time, before you would be like a psychedelic experience. Do you find that plausible given your experience with psychedelics?Aella 0:15:30Have you just said? Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:32Okay.Aella 0:15:33Maybe. Yeah. Like, I guess there's like a test where like, if you encountered a church service as a medieval peasant for the hundredth time, it would be like, so beautiful, but less cool. And this also seems to hold true with psychedelics, at least for me.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:44Yeah.Aella 0:15:45I don't. I mean, what the thing is, you're just finding like a level of beauty that you had not found before that is really incredible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:15:51Yeah, which seems to be true. So yes. I guess then the question is, is it just that is the experience of listening to your first symphony the same as me putting on Spotify, except you just haven't heard it before? So surprising, or is the actual experience like getting on a psychedelic high? You know what I mean?Aella 0:16:09There's nothing like getting on a psychedelic high. Nothing. I mean, like, there's like the sense of beauty and awe is great. And I think there's that in psychedelics. But there's like a kind of like novelty in psychedelics that are just utterly on. Like I can conceive of like a beautiful thing. But like, even right now, I cannot easily conceive of being on psychedelics, despite having taken them a huge amount of time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:32Right. If I told you, you can press a button, and you will experience one random emotion or sensation in the whole repertoire of everything a human can experience, including on drugs, you press that button? Yes.Aella 0:16:45You do?Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:46Okay. Yeah, would you?Aella 0:16:48There's a lot of like, a lot of suffering states.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:49Yeah.Aella 0:16:50But I guess I'm like, I optimize really hard for interesting as opposed to pleasant.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:54Yeah. I guess that is what taking psychedelics is like. But I don't know, it's a daunting prospect. It could get pretty bad.Aella 0:17:03Are you trying to figure out if you should take them more?Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:05No, this is not even about psychedelics. It's just, are you maximizing the value of your experiences? Or I guess the volatility of your experiences?Aella 0:17:15I just like trying to feel everything that there is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:17Do you feel like you've done that?Aella 0:17:21Probably not. But there's a lot to feel.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:25Is it important that you remember what it was like? Because we were just talking about how you'll forget what many of the sensations were like.Aella 0:17:31Maybe? I mean, depends on what it's for. It's nice to remember, but it's also kind of nice to forget too. There's a way where I just don't have easy access to a lot of quite intense suffering memories, which is nice right now because I can talk to you. So I don't know.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:47When you think back to the days when you were taking a lot of psychedelics, how much do you feel like you actually uncovered the truths about your mind and the universe? And then how much are you just like, I was just tripping back then. I don't know how much of the stuff was accurate. It was good.Aella 0:18:02Well, I think that for me, the vast majority of psychedelic experience was like, in my head I have a division. Like for me, it was deconstruction as opposed to construction. I think like some people, not due to any fault of their own, I think it's like a brain chemistryDwarkesh Patel 0:18:16thing.Aella 0:18:17Like the experience they have in psychedelics is constructing beliefs. And usually you have this, when you do this, you kind of look back on the trip and you're like, well, I was believing some crazy s**t there for a while. That was kind of weird. But I never really had that because I never really believed a thing. It was more like observing my existing beliefs and then sort of taking them as object. Sort of no longer finding them to be like an absolute thing about reality, but rather like sort of a construction that I was already doing. And that I hold to all of it. I think everything that I experienced tripping was valuable in that way and led me to where I am now.Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:51What were the downsides? How is your personality change? Is there a downside you can identify in the deconstruction? It was just like so overwhelmingly worth it. I mean, the experience itself was often quite painful. And I was pretty non-functional during the time I was taking a lot and for like about a year afterwards.Aella 0:18:58So that was a downside. I would happily pay that downside several times over. But it wasn't like the most rewarding experience. I think it was like the most rewarding experience. I mean, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:18you had that tweet recently about how you experienced executive dysfunction sometimes. And then there's a story about you working at 50 five hours a week at the factory when you were 19, right?Aella 0:19:29Yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:30So is do you think that might be because this I can elitist or executive disruption?Aella 0:19:34when I worked at the factory.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:35But you were just working 55 hours a week anyways?Aella 0:19:37Yeah, well, I was horrible. I remember being at that factory and being really confused about the way other people were there. I was like, this is clearly not what I wanna do with my life. This is actively terrible. But other people were like, oh, I've been here 10 years and this is just fine.Dwarkesh Patel 0:19:56And I was not doing well.Aella 0:19:57I think I'm pretty, Jess would be like, we're pretty smart. But I was scoring really low in my accuracy and speed at the factory. And I think this is an example of my executive dysfunction issues. And even when I wasn't working at the factory, it was not very productive at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:12What do you think is the difference between psychology between you and those people? Was it just that they enjoyed it more or they just were able to suppress the boredom? Or what do you think happened?Aella 0:20:22Yeah, I'm not sure. Part of it might be just they, maybe if I had just done it for some more years, I would have adjusted. But also, I don't know, I had been homeschooled and I think maybe school prepares you, like normal school prepares you better for a job like that. But you just have to sit and do tasks you don't want to for the entire day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:41So, I don't know.Aella 0:20:44I do think also just my brain's different. I seem to be extremely novelty-oriented compared to most people. And my guess is that just made me really not, and just attention, my attention is terrible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:56Speaking of which, if you were homeschooling your kids, or I guess if you were raising kids, what does their schooling look like? What kinds of decisions do they get to make when? Do you have some sense of how would you raise a child?Aella 0:21:08I'm not sure, I think maybe unschooling.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:10Yeah.Aella 0:21:11I'm leaning more and more in that direction. My school wasn't great. The quality of it wasn't excellent. It also, I was forced to learn things I didn't want to, but at least it wasn't a huge part of my life. And the things that, now when I look back on my childhood, the things that feel the most valuable for me to have learned was almost entirely stuff that I did myself. On my off time, the learning that I performed by my own incentive, that's what stuck with me. That's what feels like it lasted. And so I'm like, s**t, if that's the case, I should just let my kids learn what the f**k they want, and just enable them, right? Put interesting things around them, and give them a project, if you wanna do this project, you're gonna have to learn these skills in order to do it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:51Well, what are some examples?Aella 0:21:53Of projects?Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:54Things you taught yourself when you were a kidAella 0:21:55that you thought were invaluable.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:56Well, I read a huge amount,Aella 0:21:58which I think led to me being a good writer today. I just read books about things, I don't know. I learned juggling, a lot of physical comedy stuff. I did some movies, some short movies. You know, something like that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:15Could you juggle right now? I'm not asking you to.Aella 0:22:17I could, not super well, but a lot of random little skills, which have turned out to be much more relevantDwarkesh Patel 0:22:23to my life than before. Yeah, yeah, interesting.Aella 0:22:26But also, I remember I read psychology books. Just stuff that, in hindsight, psychology books about personality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:33I really liked that. I mean, it sounds like you probably didn't have a TV in your Christian fundamentalist house. Oh, we did.Aella 0:22:39We just had TV Guardian installed on it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:41Gotcha. So, could you just have watched TV the entire day if you wanted to, or was that not an option? I'm wondering if the voracious reader was because of all the other options were cut off, or you could have just explored?Aella 0:22:53Oh, no, I was obsessed with the reading, yeah. No, not because other options were cut off.Dwarkesh Patel 0:22:57Yeah, yeah, yeah.Aella 0:22:58I made it a vice to read in the shower, because I didn't like showering without reading.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:03It just took too long without reading.Aella 0:23:06I would read by moonlight after my parents to turn off the lights. When we were driving in the car, you'd hold up the book to read by the headlights of the person behind you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:13Yeah, yeah, sounds like an addiction. Yeah.Aella 0:23:16I read about, for a while, I was reading about a novel a day.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:20Hmm, was it science fiction or fantasy?Aella 0:23:22Anything I could get my hands on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:23Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did you get your hands on it? Was there a library nearby?Aella 0:23:28No, well, I would just reread what I had a lot.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:30Uh-huh.Aella 0:23:31And just, I would get books as gifts for Christmas,Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:36because clearly that was my priority. Right, right, yeah. Do you think that the ratio of submissives and dominance has changed over time? If you went back 50 years, do you think there'd be more dominance than submissives, or even more so, or?Aella 0:23:50Well, my one hypothesis is tied to testosterone, and if testosterone levels have actually been decreasing over time, then this would cause people to get more submissive.Dwarkesh Patel 0:23:59Yeah.Aella 0:24:00So maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:02Berne Hovart had this interesting theory, where he was pointing out, it's possible that the decline in testosterone we've seen, that's not just the last 50 years, it's been going on for hundreds or thousands of years. So if you went back to the ancient Greeks, they just steroided up men.Aella 0:24:16Like masks. Yeah. That's such a funny idea. But if that were true, would we be seeing a decline in testosterone over the last, I don't know how many decades,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:28enough to notice? I don't know how you would notice that. You would maybe notice that there's fewer wars, which it is the case, there's fewer wars. I mean.Aella 0:24:38How do we know that testosterone has been decreasing?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:40Is it just? Oh yeah, we measure the blood concentration, right?Aella 0:24:42Okay, okay, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:44I'm assuming. That's what I thought.Aella 0:24:45So it's gotta be over the last few decades, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:47Yeah, yeah, but we don't know. We don't have any data before that.Aella 0:24:50Yeah, but we know the rate of change,Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:52so we could like. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean it wasn't infinite in history,Aella 0:24:57so at some point it's like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:24:58I know.Aella 0:24:59Kind of like, kind of peaked, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:01Yeah.Aella 0:25:02Oh. Yeah, I don't know. I really don't. I should have the data now to look, because I did a survey for people on hormone replacement therapy. To see if people who've started testosterone report. Yeah. And I did find that. But it is a little confusing, because you don't know how much of it is like, narrative or culturally induced. Like, if you're expected to become more masculine when you take testosterone. Like, is this like, psychologically making you believe that you are more interested in being dominant? It's unclear. So I incorporated a question into my survey recently. Like, just the last minute, honestly. Asking just like, are you on HRT? If so, how long?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:37Yeah.Aella 0:25:38So I should be able to just see if that correlatesDwarkesh Patel 0:25:40with just interest in dominance. Yeah. It would also be interesting to see, another question might be, what age are you? And when you were 20, were you more dominant than submissive?Aella 0:25:53And then- Oh, to see if it changes over time?Dwarkesh Patel 0:25:54Or you would just have, if a 60 year old was really dominant when he was 20, then you'd know that, I don't know, 60 year old. People who were born in 1980 or something. Yeah.Aella 0:26:03Oh, you mean like, if it's correlated with age?Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:05Yeah. Or just like, if people born earlier were more dominant.Aella 0:26:08I found like, a surprisingly lack of correlations with age. Interesting. I mean, yeah, I could put my laptop on my lapDwarkesh Patel 0:26:14and then look at the correlations live here, but. Do you think weird fetishes, like the weirdest stuff, is that a modern thing? Or if you went back 500 years, people would have been into that kind of s**t? Yeah, I think so.Aella 0:26:25It's just like, the really weird stuff is very rare. Like we're talking like 1%, 0.1%. Like, I mean, it's correlated with rarity. Like the weirder it is, the more rare it is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:34Kind of necessarily, because if people had it,Aella 0:26:36then everybody would be like, oh, this is normal. But yeah, my guess is that it's like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:39has something to do with like a randomAella 0:26:42early childhood neonatal thing. And like, I haven't been able to find any correlates with childhood stuff, which makes me think it's more innate. And if it's more innate, then it's more likely to have existed for a very long time.Dwarkesh Patel 0:26:53Yeah, yeah. And people who just had weirder and more different experiences in the past. Like if you're just in some sort of cult without any sort of internet or any other sort of experience with the outside world. I don't know, the volatility of your kinks might've just been more, I don't know. Is that possible?Aella 0:27:11Well, the data seems to suggest it's not really based on experience.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:14Yeah.Aella 0:27:15Mostly, I mean, there's like some small exceptions. Interesting. But, so no, also I'm like, I'm not sure that experience was more varied in the past. Like maybe, like the internet is kind of homogenizing, but.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:29So, since the FTX saga happened, people have discovered Caroline Ellison's blog. I don't know if you've seen this on Twitter. And now she's become, you know, every nerd's crush because of her online writing.Aella 0:27:40Oh, really? I mostly just see people dunking on her.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:43Oh yeah, well, there's both, there's both. Do people, this probably wasn't in your kinks survey, but in just general, what is your suspicion about, do people find verbal ability and, you know, that kind of ability very attractive based on online writing or, is that a good signal you can send?Aella 0:28:02I mean, yes, like intelligence and competence is pretty attractive across the board.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:07So if you're signaling that you're smart. You can signal that by just, I don't know, having a college degree from an impressive university, right, but.Aella 0:28:15I mean, it's like kind of better signal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:17Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:18Like people who have college degrees from impressive universities, I don't think are really that smart.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:23Yeah.Aella 0:28:24And like probably like actually demonstrating like direct smartness is a lot more convincing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:30Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:28:31So it makes sense.Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:32I think her writing is funny and good. You had this really interesting post. I forgot the title of it, but it was a recent one about how the guys who are being authentic are more attractive.Aella 0:28:44Yeah. The thing that like I noticed while I was doing this, that I was attracted to,Dwarkesh Patel 0:28:49was like somebody like,Aella 0:28:50like sort of being independent of my perspective. Like a lot of time in, when I'm like talking to a guy who I can tellDwarkesh Patel 0:28:56is attracted to me and he's like, I don't know.Aella 0:28:59Like there's a way where he's like trying to orient himself to be what I want. Like very subconsciously, I think, or like subtly in body language, like mirroring, for example, like if I like sit one way and then he sits that way, I'm like, okay, this is an example of like trying to orient yourself into like the kind of person that is going to like be, make me attracted to you. Yeah. I was just like a reasonable strategy. You know, I'm not begrudging anybody this, but I think like women in general are kind of, like it's sort of like an arms race between the genders. And I think women are really attuned to this. Like women are like really good at like sussing out how much authenticity is going on. And so in this experience, when the guy was like talking to me, like some part I noticed that I was like meditating on my experience and connection with this person or these people, I noticed that some part of my brain was like, just like checking like really hard. Like, do I think this person is like masking anything at all right now?Dwarkesh Patel 0:29:54Or is he like unashamed about what he is? Sort of thing. I guess I still understand if somebody is attracted to you, they're going to maybe mirror your body language. What is the way they do that in which they're masking? And what is the way they're doing that in which they're being honest about their intentions? Is it, how does their body language change?Aella 0:30:17Like usually what you are is like quiet and flattering to somebody else. Like when I was like doing this workshop, like people were saying things to me that would typically be considered faux pas. And make people not attracted to you. Like somebody's expressing that they wanted to hurt me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:33for example.Aella 0:30:38But like I would prefer somebody do that or something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:30:42Say that they want to or? Yeah. Not to it.Aella 0:30:45Well, not actually hurt me. I prefer not to be hurt most of the time. But there's something like, like there's a way when somebody is like attracted to me and like doing a modified thing. It feels like, one, I don't get to actually know what's going on with them. Like I don't get to see them. I'm seeing like a machine designed to make me feel a certain way. And this is like scary because I don't know what's going on. And I don't know who you are. Like I don't know what's going to happen once you finally have like come and no longer want me anymore. And like somebody who, and it also like is like, my cynic side interprets it as like a dominance thing. Like if you actually don't need me, if your self-worth is not dependent on me whatsoever, if this is like truly an equal game, then you aren't going to need to modify yourself at all. You can just like be who you are, alienate me, like be at risk of alienating me and then f*****g alienate me and you're going to be 100% fine. And like, that's hot. That's hot because like when a guy can signal he doesn't need me, this means that he's like a higher rank than me,Dwarkesh Patel 0:31:51like equal or higher. Yeah. No, okay, so that doesn't sound like authenticity then but it sounds just like how badly do you want me? You know what I mean? Like how, yeah, how eager are you?Aella 0:32:03Well, it's like, it's kind of like a loop or something. Like it's hot to not want somebody, but it's hot because you actually have to not want them. Like it's hot to not have somebody like be trying to get something from youDwarkesh Patel 0:32:17for their purposes.Aella 0:32:19Like just don't conceal.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:20Right.Aella 0:32:21Like, and even if the thing you're not concealing is like a desperate burning desire, if you're like, man, I just like really would want to bang you and I'm like afraid of what you think of me. And, but I'm like, I want you so bad. Like that's hotter than trying to hide the fact that you're doing it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:35Yeah.Aella 0:32:36Yeah. I would like, I would consider banging a guy who's just like laid it all out because like by laying it all out, you're like offering up yourself to be rejected. This means that you're like, you're going to be okay even if I reject you.Dwarkesh Patel 0:32:48And like, that's the, so nice. I wonder how universal that is. Like you go to the average girl and you're just like, I really want to just f**k your face or something. What would happen?Aella 0:32:58I mean, it would probably be polarizing. Yeah. The thing is like by being honest, like you might actually make yourself be rejected. Like the point is not like if you're doing it to be accepted, like that's defeating the purpose. Like you just like offer yourself up and they accept you or they reject you. It's like the stupid f*****g annoying Buddhist concept where like by not trying you get the thing, but you have to like actually not try. You have to actually be in touch with the negative outcome and be like, this is real. And which just happened. Like there, like I probably wouldn't f**k a lot of the guys that I talked to despite non-concealing, but like I still, when they were like open and honest, it still like put them into a frame where they could have been sexual. Whereas like before I was like, you're not even in my landscape of like a potential partner. But like by being honest, I was like, now I'm actually doing the evaluation, like actively doing it and considering you in a sexual way, which was like a big leap.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:51Yeah, yeah. The Buddhist guy to pick up artistry.Aella 0:33:54I'm like, that's a great, that'd be a great book.Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:57What is charisma? When you notice somebody is being charismatic, like what is happening? Is that body language? Is that internal? And I guess more fundamentally, what is it that you're signaling about yourself when you're being charismatic?Aella 0:34:11I mean, like charismatic, charisma can probably refer to a lot of things, but like the concept that I'm mapping it onto is something like when they make me think that they like me in a way that feels like not needy. And you can break it down into like body language signaling or like social moves. But I think like the core of it is like, like you know when you enter a party and like there's somebody who like is like fun to be around and they really like you, or it seems like they're like welcoming or like, ah, hey, you know, they put you on the back, they make a joke and then they like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:43you know, flitter off and you're like, ah, that's that person. Yeah. In movies, TV shows, games, what is the most inaccurate, what do they get most wrong about sex and relationships? What is the trope that's most wrong about this?Aella 0:34:58Well, I mean, okay, I'm, I have a personal pedestal, which might be like slightly besides your question, but like the f*****g monogamy thing. Like I get, I'm down if people want to do monogamy, but it's always, it's like 100% monogamy. And cheating is like always like the worst possible thing ever and that bothers me. I just wish there was a little bit of occasionally, once in a while, there's like, you know, we call it monoplot. My, I have a friend who yelled like monoplot every time there's like a plot, lining in a story that is, could be resolved by being just likeDwarkesh Patel 0:35:32slightly less monogamous.Aella 0:35:34And I'm like, every plot's a monoplot, like you don't even have to be full poly, you just have to like have like a slight amount of flexibility, like, oh, well, then just bring me over for a threesome. Like, but that's not even on the table. I'm like, not, well, not only is it not on the table, but like, it feels like it doesn't represent the general population either. Like around 5% of people are polyamorous and probably like 15 to 30% are like, would be like open to some kind of exploration, like a little bit of looseness, which where is that in media? Nowhere, drives me crazy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:01But what you're saying is you take Ross's side and they were on a break. Have you seen Friends?Aella 0:36:06No.Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:07Okay, nevermind. It's a joke. The plot basically of the show, Money Seasons, was that one of the main characters thought he was on a break with his girlfriend and cheated on her or not. He had sex with somebody else. And that was just basically the plot for like three seasons.Aella 0:36:22Oh man. So you've engaged in activities,Dwarkesh Patel 0:36:26which are most likely to change a person, you know, psychedelics, you know, stuff relating to sex. How much do you think people can change? Because you're on like the spectrum of the things that are most likely to change you. You think people can fundamentally change?Aella 0:36:43No, I mean, like, it's like a weird question, but like, no. Like if I had to give a simplistic answer, like I think I'm very much the person that I was when I was a child or a teenager. I think it's like innate stuff is like really strong. Like I have a friend who was adopted, but happened to know both of his adoptive and his biological father, fathers. And so I asked like, what, like, who are you more like? Like which one impacted you more? And he says that he just has the temperament of his biological father, but like all of like the weird quirks and hangups of his adopted one. And I think like when it comes like temperament or like your base brain functioning in general, like this is like much more persistent and less open to change than most people think. Like, I think I'm basically the same as I was pre psychedelics,Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:29except with like a lot of maturity over timeAella 0:37:33being added on.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:35So your mission to experience every single experience out there, is that, that's not geared towards changing your personality anyway. It just.Aella 0:37:43No, yeah.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:44Yeah, yeah. But you're not, you say you can't remember many of these. So what is motivating it? Like it's not to remember it, it's not to change yourself. What is the-Aella 0:37:53Curiosity? I'm just very curious.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:56I don't know what it's like. Yeah. But it's weird, right? Because when you're curious about something, you hope to understand it and then internalize it. Like if I'm curious about an idea, it would be weird if I like read the book and I forgot about it. It wouldn't feel satisfying to my curiosity.Aella 0:38:11Yeah, well, there's some, like I think a lot of the way people operate is like sometimes you read a book and you might forget the book, but the book like updates your priors. Like the book like describes some way that the world like history worked in the war. And then you sort of like, kind of update your predictions about like the kinds of things that caused war and the kinds of reactions people have. And you forget the book, but you hold the priors. I think that's still really valuable. And I think like a lot of that has happened to me. Like I may have forgotten the experience themselves specifically, but it updated my model of the world. And also like my model of how I react and what I'm capable of. Like I went through like a lot of, you know, intense pain and suffering with psychedelics. And I maybe have forgotten that, but like there's some like deep sense of safety I have now around experiencing pain and grief that like I just carry with me all the time. So like it like sort of molded. And I know that I said that people don't really change, but I mean, that was like a little bit offhanded. Like there's obviously ways people grow. Like obviously people, you're very different from yourself, you know, seven years ago or whatever.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:08Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I hope that's the case that you're updating your priors. Cause that would mean that all the books I don't remember, should they have like in some sense been useful to me, but I suspect that that might just be co-op on my end and it's like gone forever.Aella 0:39:23I doubt it. I mean, did you have like any sort of like, ah, that sentence when you were reading the books?Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:28Yeah.Aella 0:39:30That's probably still there.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:32Hopefully, hopefully. You've done a bunch of internet polls, many of them in statistically significant. What advice do you have for political pollsters based on?Aella 0:39:42I don't really follow political pollsters. I don't know. I mean, advice for polls in generalDwarkesh Patel 0:39:48is just have better wording.Aella 0:39:49Like I'm really surprised. I was, I mean, again, I'm taking a side note, but like I went, I want to include some big five questionsDwarkesh Patel 0:39:56in my really big survey.Aella 0:39:58And I understand that the way that they selectDwarkesh Patel 0:40:00big five questions is just,Aella 0:40:02as far as I know, like factor analysis, you just pick the most predictive questions. So it's not like people were like, ah, this is the question, but still like the wording of the questions was terrible. Like it's so much easier to make clearer questions. And I did use the big five questions. I forget exactly what they were, but I'm just like, is this what's going on with surveys in general? Like you don't want to, you want to be careful when you have a question to have it as worded so that people take them as homogenous a meaning from it as possible. But most of the other polls I see in other surveys and other research, it's like people just sort of thought of a good question and kind of slapped it down and never really deeply dug into like studied how people respond to this question, which I think is probably my best comparative advantage is that I've had like a really massive amount of experience over many years and thousands of polls to see exactly how your wording can be misinterpreted in every possible way. And so right now I think probably my best skill is like knowing how to write something to be as like very precise as possible.Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:02Yeah. How do you come up with these polls by the way? You just have an interesting question that comes up in a discussion or?Aella 0:41:07Often it's with discussions with friends. Like we'll be talking about something and somebody brings up like a concept or a what if. And I just have like a module in my brain now that translates everything to potential Twitter polls. So like whenever something like generates a concept,Dwarkesh Patel 0:41:20I'll go put that in a poll. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. If you are, I would really, really appreciate it if you could share the episode with other people who you think might like it. This is still a pretty small podcast. So it's basically impossible for me to exaggerate how much it helps out when one of you shares the podcast. You know, put the episode in the group chat you have with your friends, post it on Twitter, send it to somebody who you think might like it. All of those things helps out a ton. Anyways, back to the conversation. I found it surprising you've been tweeting about your saga of learning and applying different statistical tools in Python. And I found it surprising, don't you have like a thousand nerdy reply guys who would be happy to help you out? How is this not a soft problem?Aella 0:42:16People are not good at helping you learn Python.Dwarkesh Patel 0:42:18At least not good at helping you.Aella 0:42:20At least not good at helping me learn Python. There are some people who are really good, but sometimes when I'm trying to learn Python, it's like at 3 a.m. and they're all sleeping. So I'm not saying that like everybody, I have some people who are like really excellentDwarkesh Patel 0:42:30at understanding and responding to me.Aella 0:42:31But when I'm tweeting, usually it's like, I don't wanna bother them or they're on break or something. And I have a chat where people help me, but often it's very frustrating. Because I, they just like, they're trying to explain, what I want, the way that I like to learn is, you just give me the code, give me the code that I know works. I do it, I test it, I see it, whether it works. And after that, then I go throughDwarkesh Patel 0:42:51and I try to understand the code.Aella 0:42:52But what people wanna do is they wanna explain to meDwarkesh Patel 0:42:54how it works before they do it.Aella 0:42:55Or, and it's not really their fault, but it's like there's the unfortunate thing where if somebody wants to help you do a problem, usually they have to go do a little bit of research themselves because programming is such a wide, vast landscape. Like people just don't offhandedly know the answer to your question. And so it requires a bit of work on their part. And it requires them being like, oh, maybe it's this. And then they post a bit of code. And, but you don't know, I try it and like it doesn't work. And they're like, ah, well, I'll try this other thing. And then it becomes like a collaborative problem solving process, which is like more annoying to me. I mean, it's necessary. I'm not saying it's their fault at all. It's like my fault for being annoyed. But I just want like, give me the answer. And then we can go through the whole like questions about it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:32Have you tried using CoPilot by the way? I haven't.Aella 0:43:34You got it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:35Yeah.Aella 0:43:36It's gonna solve all your problems.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:37That's what people said. Yeah. It's like the ultimate. Okay. Autocompletor. It's like basically what you're asking for.Aella 0:43:42I was like trying to like look into it recently,Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:44but this is like the push that I need to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had heard about it too. And then my friend is just like, I'm gonna watch you install CoPilot right now. Don't say you're gonna install it. And yeah, it's been very valuable.Aella 0:43:57That's good. That's a useful anecdote.Dwarkesh Patel 0:43:59Yeah, yeah. I found your post about hanging out with elites really interesting.Aella 0:44:05Hanging out with elites, yeah. Do you, and I was wondering,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:08is it possible that all the elites feel the same way about being there that you did? They're all like, this is kind of bizarre and boring. And I guess I'll just try to fit in. You know, is that possible? Or do you think they were actually different?Aella 0:44:22I guess it's probably a little of both. Like I wouldn't be surprised if everybody else felt it more than I thought. But also I would be surprisedDwarkesh Patel 0:44:28if everybody else felt it as much as me.Aella 0:44:30Because like when I do have like, it seems like I do have a like actually very different background than most of the people. And most of the people I asked about their backgrounds and they usually come from like much wealthier familiesDwarkesh Patel 0:44:41than I did.Aella 0:44:42Like went to school. Usually that's a big thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:43They went to college. That's a huge, big, to me,Aella 0:44:47like if you're in my group or not in my group,Dwarkesh Patel 0:44:48is did you go to college? Yeah. And I feel like much more at ease with people who didn't. But when you're talking about these boring conversations, I know you were calling them. Do you think that they also thought it was boring, but that they were supposed to have those conversations? Or do you think they were actually enjoying it?Aella 0:45:01I don't know. Like recently I was at a party and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm just staying at this party, but like, okay, let's take matters into our own hands. I'm just gonna run up to groups of peopleDwarkesh Patel 0:45:11and ask them like the weirdest question I can think of.Aella 0:45:14And then, and in my mind, I was like, okay, if I'm standing up there, standing at a party and somebody runs up to me with a weird question, I'd be like, f**k yes, let's go. Like, okay, I would like respond with a weirder question. I'd be like, let's dig into this. You know, I would be so f*****g thrilled. And so I was at this party, what I would consider to be like in the crowds of elite. It was like a little bit of a, it was like a party, less like a cocktail thing where people like be smart at each other and more like a get drunk and dance thing. But it was still like a much higher end kind of, so tickets were like really expensive. So I went around, I ran, I asked a whole bunch of people weird questions and just, like people obviously were like down to participate in like somebody trying to initiate conversation with them. But like the resulting conversations were not interesting at all.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:57I was shocked with like how few conversationsAella 0:46:01were interesting. It was just people,Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:02it was just like, there was nothing there.Aella 0:46:05And I'm like, are you not all desperate to like cling on to something more fascinating than what's currently happening? It seemed like they weren't. I just got that impression.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:12But do you think they were enjoying what they were doing?Aella 0:46:15That you mean just the normal conversation? Yeah. I think so. If they weren't, they would be searching for something else, right?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:21That's not obvious to me. Like people can sometimes just be super complacent and they're just like a status quo bias. Or they're just like, I don't wanna do anything too shocking.Aella 0:46:28Yeah, but if I'm handing them shocking on a platter, I run up to them. They didn't even have to do anything. I just like walk into the, I interrupt their conversation. I'm like, here's something.Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:36What is an example?Aella 0:46:38Like, like, like, you know, like what's the most controversial opinion you have?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:43You just walk in like Peter Thiel.Aella 0:46:44Is that what he does?Dwarkesh Patel 0:46:46Oh, well, he has this, there's a famous Peter Thiel question about what is something you believe that nobody else agrees with you on? Or very people agree with you on.Aella 0:46:53Yeah, okay. I didn't know that, but yeah. My version is like, what's the most controversial? And then usually I say either like in the circle people discussingDwarkesh Patel 0:47:01or like people at this party.Aella 0:47:02And it's shocking how many people are like, I don't have a controversial opinion on. How do you, like out of all culture, like you think that this culture is the one that's 100% right and you don't agree with all of it? Like out of all of history, you think in like 500 years, we're gonna look back and be like, ah, yes, 2022, that was the year.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:19So in their defense, I think what could be going on is you just have a bunch of beliefs and you just haven't categorized them, indexed them in terms of controversial or not controversial. And so on the spot, it just like you gotta search through every single belief you have. Like, is that controversial? Is that controversial?Aella 0:47:37Yeah, but you can make allowances for it. Like sometimes people are like, ooh, I don't know like which one is the most, you know, I'd have to think like.Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:43I have so many.Aella 0:47:44Right, or like, well, I mean, there's some things I disagree on, but they're not sure they're controversial. Like these count. Like there's like a kind of response people give when you know that the thing, the issue is not that they don't have a controversial opinion, but rather that like it's sorting. But like I've talked to people who are like, oh, I don't really have one. And I was like, you mean you don't have any? And I would like pride, like there's nothing that you believe. And they'd be like, no, not really. And like, maybe they were lying, but like usually people are like,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:12well, I have one, but I'm afraid to say. And like that's. No.Aella 0:48:17Anyway, I don't know. I don't understand.Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:20I wonder if you were more specific, you would get some more controversial takes.Aella 0:48:24Like what's your most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:25like about this thing? Yeah, yeah. What should the age of consent be? You know what I mean?Aella 0:48:29Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I do questions like that,Dwarkesh Patel 0:48:31but I like the controversial one is a good opener.Aella 0:48:34It's like it gives you a lot of information about the other person. Like it gives you a fresh about what their social group is. But I also like the game. I've started transitioning to a game where I'm like, okay, you have to say a pin you hold. And if anybody in the group disagrees with it, they hold up a hand and you get pointsDwarkesh Patel 0:48:50for the amount of people that hold up a hand. Oh, yeah.Aella 0:48:52And the person who gets the most points wins. Because people have this horrible tendency. Like I'll be like, what's the most controversial opinionDwarkesh Patel 0:48:57that you have in this group?Aella 0:48:59And then they'll say a controversial opinion for the out group. And I'll be like, but does anybody actually disagree with that here? Like, oh, like Trump wasn't as horrible as people say he is.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:09I'm like. Yeah, no. One interesting twist on that, by the way. Tyler Cowen had a twist on that question in his application for emergent mentors. So everybody's been asking the P.J. Teal question about what do you believe? And nobody else agrees with the most controversial opinion. And so it's kind of priced in at this point. And so Tyler's question on the application was, what is, what do you believe, what is like your most conventional belief? Like what is the thing you hold strongest that most people would agree with you on? And it kind of situates you in terms of what is the, where are you overlapping with the status quo?Aella 0:49:47Like, I feel confused about this. So I would probably say something like gravity is real.Dwarkesh Patel 0:49:52No, exactly. I think he's like looking for. Oh, something like that? You being conventional in a contrarian way. Maybe you just said something weird. Like, I believe that the feeling of the waves on my skin is beautiful and feels great, you know? It just shows you're not answering it in the normal way.Aella 0:50:08Oh, he wants the non-conventional answer.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:10Yeah, yeah.Aella 0:50:12Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of that question though. Like I'm like not sure that question is like, like the best question to test for non-conventionality.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:18Yeah, yeah. I would have thought by the way, that high-end escorts would be very familiar with elite culture. Because you watch these movies and these, you know, these escorts are going with rich CEOs at fundraiser dinners and stuff like that. I would have thought that actually the high-end escorts would be like very familiar with elite culture. Is that not the case or?Aella 0:50:38I mean, probably some are, but I'm not. I mean, like I've had a few people offer to take me to public events, but never actually happened. I've never appeared, like been hired to be aroundDwarkesh Patel 0:50:51like a man's social circle.Aella 0:50:53Usually people are very private about that.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:55That's interesting. Because I would have thought one of the things rich men really probably want to do is signal social status. Probably even, potentially even more than have sex, right?Aella 0:51:04Maybe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:05To show that they have beautiful women around them.Aella 0:51:07Yeah, I think my guess is they would be seen as high risk. And I've known other escorts who have in fact been brought to events. So it's not that this doesn't happen, but like, I don't think it happens a lot,Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:17at least based on my experience. No, interesting.Aella 0:51:20It's possible that I'm not like pretty enough. It's possible that like a woman is very beautiful that she might get invited more often.Dwarkesh Patel 0:51:25But my guess is like,Aella 0:51:29like they can't trust that I know enough to be able to pass as an elite in those circles. Like I'm a weirdo sex worker who the f**k knows. Like, am I going to be doing drives in the bathroom? Am I going to be ta

Edward Glaeser is the chair of the Harvard department of economics, and the author of the best books and papers about cities (including Survival of the City and Triumph of the City).He explains why:* Cities are resilient to terrorism, remote work, & pandemics,* Silicon Valley may collapse but the Sunbelt will prosper, * Opioids show UBI is not a solution to AI* & much more!Watch on YouTube. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast platform. Read the full transcript here.Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes.If you enjoy this episode, I would be super grateful if you shared it. Post it on Twitter, send it to your friends & group chats, and throw it up wherever else people might find it. Can't exaggerate how much it helps a small podcast like mine.A huge thanks to Graham Bessellieu for editing this podcast and Mia Aiyana for producing its transcript.Timestamps(0:00:00) - Mars, Terrorism, & Capitals (0:06:32) - Decline, Population Collapse, & Young Men (0:14:44) - Urban Education (0:18:35) - Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy? (0:25:29) - Opioids, Automation, & UBI (0:29:57) - Remote Work, Taxation, & Metaverse (0:42:29) - Past & Future of Silicon Valley (0:48:56) - Housing Reform (0:52:32) - Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate ChangeTranscriptMars, Terrorism, & CapitalsDwarkesh Patel 0:00:00Okay, today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Professor Edward Glaeser, who is the chair of the Harvard Department of Economics, and author of some of the best books and papers about cities. Professor Glazer, thanks for coming on The Lunar Society.Edward Glaeser 0:00:25Oh, thank you so much for having me on! Especially given that The Lunar Society pays homage to one of my favorite moments in urban innovation in Birmingham during the 18th century.Dwarkesh Patel 0:00:26Oh wow, I didn't even catch that theme, but that's a great title. My first question is, What advice would you give to Elon Musk about building the first cities on Mars?Edward Glaeser 0:00:35[laughs] That's a great question. I think that demand for urbanism in Mars is going to be relatively limited. Cities are always shaped by the transportation costs that are dominant in the era in which they're created. That both determines the micro-shape of the city and determines its macro future. So cities on Mars are, of course, going to be limited by the likely prohibitive cost of traveling back and forth to the mother planet. But we also have to understand what cars people are going to be using on Mars. I assume these are all going to be Teslas, and everyone is going to be driving around in some appropriate Tesla on Mars. So it's going to be a very car-oriented living experience. I think the best strategy would be to create a fairly flexible plan, much like the 1811 grid plan in New York, that allows entrepreneurs to change land use over time and put a few bets on what's necessary for infrastructure and then just let the city evolve organically. Usually, the best way is to put more trust in individual initiative than central planning–– at least in terms of micromanaging what goes where. Dwarkesh Patel 0:01:58Gotcha. Now, since 9/11, many terrorist groups have obviously intended to cause harm to cities. But by and large, at least in Western countries, they haven't managed to kill off thousands of people like they were able to do during 9/11. What explains this? Do you think cities are just more resilient to these kinds of attacks than we would have otherwise thought? Or are the terrorists just not being creative enough?Edward Glaeser 0:02:20I don't know. There's also the question of what the objectives are. Even for the 9/11 terrorists, their end game was not to kill urbanites in America. It was to effect change in Saudi Arabia or in the Middle East more generally. We've also protected our cities better. If you think about it, two things go on simultaneously when you collect economic activity in one place in terms of defense: one of which is they become targets–– and of course, that's what we saw on 9/11; it's hard to think of a symbol that's clearer than those twin towers. But at the same time, they're also a defensible space. The origin of the urban agglomeration and use for cities and towns was the fact that they could be walled settlements. Those walls that brought together people collectively for defense are the ultimate reason why these towns came about. The walls provided protection.I think the same thing has been playing out with cities over the past 20 years. Just as New York was a target, it was also a place where post-2001, the city ramped up its anti-terrorism efforts. They put together a massive group as London had previously done. The cameras that implemented congestion pricing in London were the same cameras that used against the Irish terrorists. So both effects went on. I think we've been fortunate and that we've shown the strength of cities in terms of protecting themselves.Dwarkesh Patel 0:03:52If you look throughout ancient world history, there are so many examples of empires that are basically synonymous with their capital cities (ex. Rome or Athens, or Sparta). But today, you would never think of America as the ‘Washingtonian Empire.' What is the explanation for why the capital city has become much less salient in terms of the overall nation? Is there a Coasian answer here?Edward Glaeser 0:04:20There are specific things that went on with English offshoot colonies where in many cases, because they recognized the tendency of the capital city to attract lots of excess goodies that had been taken from elsewhere in the country, they located the capital city in a remote place. It's actually part of the story of the Hamilton musical in The Room Where it Happens. Part of the deal was about moving the capital of the US to a relatively remote Virginia location rather than having it be in Philadelphia, New York. That was partially to reflect the fact that the South needed to be protected against all of the extra assets going to New York and Philadelphia.So, whether or not this is Canberra or Ottawa, you see all of these English offshoot places without their capitals in the big metropoles. Whereas traditionally, what's happened in these places that have been around for centuries, is that even if the capital didn't start off as the largest city, it became the largest city because centuries of French leaders thought their business was to take wealth from elsewhere in France and make Paris great. I think the French Empire was as synonymous with Paris as most of those ancient empires were with their capital city. I guess the question I could throw back to you is, what are places where this is not true? Moscow, St. Peter's, and Beijing are examples. Do we think that Beijing is less synonymous with China than the Roman Empire is with Rome? Maybe a little–– possibly just because China is so big and Beijing is a relatively small share of the overall population of China. But it's more so certainly than Washington, D.C. is with the U.S. Decline, Population Collapse, & Young MenDwarkesh Patel 0:06:32That's a really interesting answer. Once a city goes through a period of decline (maybe an important industry moved out, or maybe it's had a sequence of bad governance), are you inclined to bet that there will be some sort of renewal, or do you think that things will continue to get worse? In other words, are you a momentum trader, or are you a reversion to the mean trader when it comes to cities?Edward Glaeser 0:06:54I can tell you different answers for different outcomes. For housing prices, I can tell you exactly what we know statistically about this, which is at higher frequencies, let's say one year, housing prices show wickedly large levels of momentum. For five years or more, they show very significant levels of mean reversion. It's a short-term cycle in housing prices followed by decline. Population just shows enormous persistence on the downside. So what happens is you typically will have an economic shock. Detroit used to be the most productive place on the planet in 1950, but a bunch of shocks occurred in transportation technology which made it no longer such a great place to make cars for the world. It takes a century for the city to respond in terms of its population because the housing is sticky. The housing remains there. So between the 50s and 60s, the population declines a little bit, and prices drop. They drop sufficiently far that you're not going to build a lot of new housing, but people are going to still stay in the houses. They're not going to become vacant. So, the people are still there because the houses are still there. During the 60s to 70s, the population drops a  little bit further and prices kind of stay constant, but still it's not enough to build new housing. So the declines are incredibly persistent, and growth is less so. So on the boom side, you have a boom over a 10-year period that's likely to mean revert and it's not nearly as persistent because it doesn't have this sticky housing element to it. In terms of GDP per capita, it's much more of a random walk there in terms of the straight income stuff. It's the population that's really persistent, which is, in fact, the reality of a persistent economy.Dwarkesh Patel 0:08:44Interesting. Why don't Americans move as much as they used to a century ago? So you have a paper from 2018 titled Jobs in the Heartland, where you talk about how there's increasing divergence between the unemployment rates between different parts of America. Why don't Americans just move to places where there are better economic circumstances? Edward Glaeser 0:09:04I want to highlight one point here, which is that you said “unemployment rate”, and I want to replace that with non-employment rate. That's partially what we're seeing now. It looks like America's labor force couldn't be better in terms of the low levels of unemployment, but what's happened over the last 50 years is there has been a very large rise in the share of prime-age men who are not in the labor force. So they've stopped looking for work, and those guys are miserable. It's not that those guys are somehow rather productive and happy,–– this is a very bad outcome for prime-age men. I'm separating men from women, not to say that the female labor markets aren't just as important, just as fascinating, just as critical. But labor force participation means something different for many women than it does for men. There are many women who are not in the labor force who are doing things that are enormously productive socially, like caring for their children and caring for their families.I wish it were symmetric across the genders. It just isn't true. I mean, there just are very few men not in the labor force who are doing anything much other than watching television. It's just a very different thing. So yes, there are big differences in the non-employment rate. There are some parts of America where, for much of the past decade, one in four prime-age men have been jobless. It's an enormous gap. The question is, why don't they get out?I think the answer is really twofold: one of which is the nature of how housing markets have frozen up. Historically, the differences in housing costs in the US weren't that huge across places. Most parts of America had some kind of affordable housing, and it was relatively easy to put up. At the dawn of the 20th century, these were kit helms sold by Sears and Roebuck that sprung up by the thousand. You bought the kit from Sears and Roebuck, and you just built it yourself. After World War II, it was mass-produced homes in places like Levittown.For most of the last 50 years, in places like coastal California or the East Coast, building has just become far more difficult. With the decline of mass-produced housing, it's become far more expensive, and it becomes harder and harder for relatively low-income people to find opportunities in places that have high levels of income, and high levels of opportunity. That's partially why there's not just a general decline in mobility, there's a decline in directed mobility for the poor. Historically, poor people moved from poor areas to rich areas. That's pretty much stopped. In part, that's because rich areas just have very, very expensive housing. The other thing is the rising importance of the informal safety net.So if you think about most particularly prime-aged men, they're not receiving significant handouts from the government except if they're on disability. But they will typically have some form of income, some form of housing that's being provided for them by someone other than themselves. A third of them are living in their parent's homes. That informal safety net is usually very place dependent. Let's say you're living in Eastern Kentucky; it's not like your parents were going to buy you a condo in San Francisco. You can still have your own bedroom, but you can't go anywhere else and still get that level of support. And so that's, I think, another reason why we're increasingly stuck in place.The third you mentioned, is that a third of the non-employed population of young men or is that a third of all young men? Non-employed is a third of non-employed prime aged men. So that's 25 to 54. There are a lot of 45 year olds who are living on their parents' couches or in their old bedroom. It's a fairly remarkable thing.Dwarkesh Patel 0:12:49Now, we'll get to housing in just a second, but first, I want to ask you: If the fertility trends in East Asia and many other places continue, what will the impact on cities be if the average age gets much older and the possible eventuality of depopulation?Edward Glaeser 0:12:53That's a really interesting question.The basic age fact on cities is that within the bracket of the sort of high-income or middle-income, for prime-aged parents, cities tend to be relatively bad for them. Once you're in the sort of high end of the upper middle class, the distrust of our public school systems, merited or not, means that that group tends to leave. You have plenty of parents with kids who are lower income, and then you have groups who are part of a demographic barbell that like cities. So this is partially about people who don't feel like they need the extra space and partially because if they're young, they're looking to find prospective mates of various forms.Cities are good for that. Urban proximity works well in the dating market. And they've got time on their hands to enjoy the tremendous amenities and consumption advantages that cities have. For older people, it's less about finding a mate typically, but the urban consumption amenity still has value. The ability to go to museums, the ability to go to concerts, and those sorts of activities continue to draw people in.Going forward, I would have continued to expect the barbell dimension to persist until we actually get around to solving our urban schools and declining population levels. If anything, I would have thought that COVID skews you a bit younger because older people are more anxious and remember that cities can also bring pandemics. They remember that it can be a nice thing to have a suburban home if you have to shelter in place. So that might lead some people who would have otherwise relocated to a dense urban core to move out, to stay out.Urban EducationDwarkesh Patel 0:14:44You just mentioned urban schools, and I'm curious because you've written about how urban schools are one of the reasons people who have children might not want to stay in cities. I'm curious why it's the case that American cities have some of the best colleges in the world, but for some reason, their K-to-12 is significantly worse, or it can be worse than the K-to-12 in other parts of the country. Why is it that the colleges are much better in cities, but K to 12 is worse? Edward Glaeser 0:15:19So it's interesting. It's not as if, I don't think there's ever been an Englishman who felt like they had to leave London to get better schools for the kids, or a Frenchman who thought they needed to leave Paris. It's not like there's something that's intrinsic to cities, but I've always thought it's a reflection of the fact that instead of allowing all of the competition and entrepreneurship that thrives in cities and that makes cities great, in the case of K to 12 public education, that's vanished.And your example of colleges is exactly right. I'm in this industry; I'm a participant in this industry and let me tell you, this industry is pretty competitive. Whether or not we're competing for the best students, at our level we go through an annual exercise of trying to make sure we get Ph.D. students to come to our program instead of our competitors, whether it's by hiring faculty members or attracting undergraduates, we occupy a highly competitive industry where we are constantly aware of what we need to do to make ourselves better. It doesn't mean that we're great along every dimension, but at least we're trying. K through 12 education has a local monopoly.So it's like you take the great urban food, leisure and hospitality, and food industries, and instead of having in New York City by a hyper-competitive world where you constantly have entry, you say, “You know what? We're going to have one publicly managed canteen and it's going to provide all the food in New York City and we're not going to allow any competitors or the competitors are going to have to pay a totally different thing.” That canteen is probably going to serve pretty crappy food. That's in some sense what happens when you have a large-scale public monopoly that replaces private competition.Dwarkesh Patel 0:16:50But isn't that also true of rural schools? Why are urban schools often worse? Edward Glaeser 0:17:46There's much more competition in suburban schools. So in terms of the suburban schools, typically there are lots of suburbs, and people are competing amongst them. The other thing that's actually important is (I don't want to over exaggerate this, but I think it is something that we need to think a little bit about) the role of public sector unions and particularly teachers unions in these cases. In the case of a suburban school district, the teachers union is no more empowered on the management side than they would be in the private sector.Dwarkesh Patel 0:17:30So in a normal private sector, you've got a large company, you've got a union, and they're arguing with each other. It's a level playing field. It's all kind of reasonable. I'm not saying management has done awful things, and that unions have done foolish things. I'm not saying that either are perfect, but it's kind of well-matched. It's matched that way in the suburbs as well. You've got highly empowered parents who are highly focused on their kids and they're not dominated.It's not like the teachers union dominates elections in Westchester County. Whereas if you go into a big city school district, you have two things going on. One of which is the teachers tend to be highly involved politically and quite capable of influencing management essentially, because they are an electoral force to be reckoned with, not just by the direct votes, but also with their campaign spending. On top of this, you're talking about a larger group of disparate parents, many of whom have lots of challenges to face and it becomes much harder for them to organize effectively on the other side. So for those reasons, big urban schools can do great things and many individual teachers can be fantastic, but it's an ongoing challenge. Georgism, Robert Moses, & Too Much Democracy?Dwarkesh Patel 0:18:35What is your opinion on Georgism? Do cities need a land value tax? Would it be better if all the other taxes are replaced by one?Edward Glaeser 0:18:41Okay. So Henry George, I don't know any economist who doesn't think that a land value tax is an attractive idea. The basic idea is we're going to tax land rather than taxing real estate values. And you would probably implement this in practice by evaluating the real estate and then subtracting the cost of construction, (at least for anything that was built up, meaning you'd form some value of the structures and you just subtract it).The attractive thing from most of our perspectives is it doesn't create the same disincentive to build that a real estate tax does. Real estate tax says, “Oh, you know what? I might want to keep this thing as a parking lot for a couple of years so I don't have to pay taxes on it.”If it were a land value tax, you're going to pay the same tax, whether or not it's a parking lot or whether or not you're going to put a high rise on it, so you might as well put the high rise on it and we could use the space. So I think by and large, that's a perfectly sensible idea. I'd like to see more places using land value taxes or using land value taxes in exchange for property taxes.Where George got it wrong is the idea that a land value tax is going to solve all the problems of society or all the problems of cities. That is ludicrously not true.One could make an argument that in those places that just have a property tax, you could replace it with a land value tax with little loss, but at the national level, it's not a particularly progressive tax in lots of ways. It would be hard to figure out how to fund all the things you want to fund, especially since there are lots of things that we do that are not very land intensive. I think George was imagining a world in which pretty much all value-creating enterprises had a lot of land engaged. So it's a good idea, yes. A panacea, no. Dwarkesh Patel 0:20:20No, that's a good point. I mean, Google's offices in San Francisco are probably generating more value than you would surmise just from the quantity of land they have there. Do American cities need more great builders like Robert Moses?Edward Glaeser 0:20:36Robert Caro's The Power Broker is one of the great biographies of the past 100 years, unquestionably. The only biography that I think is clearly better is Robert Caro's biography of Lyndon Baines Johnson, right? I mean, it's Caro is truly amazing. That being said, I would not exactly call it a fair and balanced view of Robert. I mean, it is true that Robert Moses was high handed, and it is true that there are things that he did that were terrible, that you never want to do again. But on the other hand, the man got stuff built. I mean, I think of myself as a child growing up in New York City, and whether or not it was the public pool that I swam in or the parks that I played in, or the roads that I traveled on, they were all delivered by Robert Moses. There's got to be a middle ground, which is, no, we're not going to run roughshod over the neighborhood as Robert Moses did, but we're still going to build stuff. We're still going to deliver new infrastructure and we're not going to do it for 10 times more than every other country in the world does it.Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:37We're actually going to have sensible procurement policies that bring in things at a reasonable cost, and I think we need to balance a little bit back towards Robert Moses in order to have slightly more empowered builders who actually are able to deliver American cities the infrastructure they need at an affordable cost. Dwarkesh Patel 0:21:57Do we have too much democracy at the local level? You wrote a paper in 2017 titled The Political Economy of Transportation Investments and one of the points you make there is that the local costs are much more salient to people for new construction than the public benefits, and the benefits to newcomers would be. Does that mean we have too much federalism? Should we just have far less power at the city level and not universally? There are lots of good things that local control does.Edward Glaeser 0:22:25I do think we have too much local ability to say no to new housing projects. So that's a particular case that I'm focused on. I think it's exactly right that the near neighbors to a project internalize all of the extra noise and perhaps extra traffic that they're going to have due to this project. They probably overestimate it because they are engaging in a bit of status quo bias and they think the present is great and can't imagine any change.By contrast, none of the people who would benefit from the new project are able to vote. All of the families that would love to move into this neighborhood are being zoned out by the insiders who get a say. I think the goal is to make sure that we have more ability to speak for outsiders. Cities at their best, are places where outsiders can find opportunities. That's part of what's so great about them. It's a tragic thing that we make that so hard. Now I'm not sure exactly that I'm claiming that I want less democracy, but I do want more limitations on how much regulations localities can do. So I think there are certain limitations on local power that I think are fine.I would prefer to call this not a limitation on local democracy, but an increase in the protection of individual rights or the individual rights of landowners to do what they want with their land. Which in effect, is a limit on democracy. But the Bill of Rights is a limit on democracy! The Bill of Rights says that they don't care if 51% of your voters want to take away your right to free assembly. They're not allowed to do that. So in some sense, what I'm just arguing for is more property owners' rights so that they can actually allow more housing in their building.In terms of transportation projects, it's a little bit dicier because here the builder is the government itself. I think the question is you want everyone to have a voice. You don't want every neighborhood to have a veto over every potential housing project or potential transportation project. So you need something that is done more at the state level with representation from the locality, but without the localities getting the ultimate sayDwarkesh Patel 0:24:33I wonder if that paper implies that I should be shorting highly educated areas, at least in terms of real estate. One of the things you mentioned in the paper was that highly educated areas that had much higher opposition were able to foment much more opposition. Edward Glaeser  0:24:49Okay. So here's the real estate strategy, which I have heard that actually there are buyers who do this. You take an area that has historically been very pro-housing. So it's got lots of housing, and it's affordable right now because supply is good. But lots of educated people have moved in. Which means that going forward, they're going to build much less, which means that going forward, they're likely to become much more expensive. So you should, in fact, buy options on that stuff rather than shorting it. You should short if you have a security that is related to the population level in that community. You should short that because the population growth is going to go down, but the prices are likely to go up. Opioids, Automation, & UBIDwarkesh Patel 0:25:29So you wrote a paper last year on the opioid epidemic. One of the points that you made there was that the opioid epidemic could be explained just by the demand side stuff about social isolation and joblessness. I wonder how this analysis makes you think about mass-scale automation in the future. What impact do you think that would have? Assume it's paired with universal basic income or something like that. Do you think it would cause a tremendous increase in opioid abuse?Edward Glaeser 0:26:03I would have phrased it slightly differently–– which is as opposed to the work of two amazing economists, Anne Case and Angus Deaton, who really emphasized the role of deaths of despair; we are much more focused on the supply side. WIth the demand side, meaning just the way that we handled the distribution of large-scale pain relieving medicines, we tell a story where every 30 to 50 years, someone comes up with the same sort of idea, which is we know that human beings love opioids in different forms. We also know they're highly addicted and lead to a terrible cycle. So all of a sudden comes along this innovator says, you know what? I've got a new opioid and it's safe. You don't have to worry about getting addicted to this one. It's magical.It won't work. 100 years ago, that thing was called heroin. 200 years ago, that thing was called morphine. 300 years ago, that thing was called Meldonium. We have these new drugs which have come in, and they've never been safe. But in our case, it was OxyContin and the magic of the time relief was supposed to make it safe, and it wasn't safe.Dwarkesh Patel 0:27:30There's a lot of great work that just shows that the patterns of opioid use was related to the places that just had a lot of pain 30 years ago. Those places came with a lot of tendency to prescribe various things for pain. So when opioids came in, when OxyContin came in, those were the places that got addicted most. Now it's also true that there are links between these economic issues. There are links with joblessness, and I basically do believe that things that create joblessness are pretty terrible and are actually much worse than income inequality. I push back against the universal basic income advocates who I think are basically engaging in a materialist fallacy of thinking that a human being's life is shaped by their take home pay or their unearned pay. I think for most people, a job is much more than that. A job is a sense of purpose. A job is a sense of social connection. When you look at human misery and opioid use, you look at the difference between high-income earners, mid-income earners. There are differences, but they're small. You then look at the difference between low-income earners and the jobless, then unhappiness spikes enormously, misery spikes enormously, family breakups spike enormously. So things like universal basic income, which the negative income tax experimented on in the 1970s, are the closest thing we have for its large-scale experiments in this area, which had very large effects on joblessness by just giving people money. They feel quite dangerous to me because they feel like they're going to play into rising joblessness in America, which feels like a path for its misery. I want to just quickly deviate and some of the UBI advocates have brought together UBI in the US and UBI in the developing world. So UBI in the developing world, basically means that you give poor farmers in Sub-Saharan Africa fairly modest amounts of money. This is a totally sensible strategy.These people are not about to live life permanently not working. They're darn poor. It's very efficient relative to other ways of giving.  I am in no sense pushing back on UBI with modest amounts of money in the poorest parts of the world. By all means, it's been deemed to be effective. It's just a very different thing if you're saying I'm going to give $100 to a poor Congolese farmer, or I'm going to give $10,000 to a long-term jobless person in Eastern Kentucky. You're not buying a PS5 for $100 in Congo.Remote Work, Taxation, & MetaverseDwarkesh Patel 0:29:57I want to ask you about remote work. You write in The Survival of the City, that improvements in information technology can lead to more demand for face-to-face contact because FaceTime complements time spent communicating electronically. I'm curious, what distinguishes situations where FaceTime substitutes for in-person contact from situations where it complements FaceTime complements virtual contact?Edward Glaeser 0:30:25So there's not a universal rule on this. I wrote a paper based on this in the 1990s about face-to-face contact complements or substitutes for electronic contacts. It was really based on a lot of anxiety in the 1970s that the information technology of their day, the fax machine, the personal computer was going to make face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact obsolete. That discussion has reappeared amazingly in the past two and a half years because of Zoom, and all of those questions still resonate. I think in the short run, typically these things are substitutes.Typically you don't necessarily need to meet some person who's your long-term contact. You can actually just telephone them, or you can connect with them electronically. In the long run, they seem to be much more likely to be complements, in part because these technologies change our world. The story that I tell over the last 40 years is that, yes, there were some face-to-face contacts that were made unnecessary because of electronic interactions. But it's not just that cities did well over the past 40 years–– business travel went through the roof over the past 40 years. You'd think that that would have been made unnecessary by all these electronic interactions, but I think what just happened was that these new technologies and globalization created a more interconnected world, a world in which knowledge was more important, and we become smart by interacting with people face-to-face. This world became more knowledge and information intensive and more complicated, and as things get more complicated, it's easier for ideas to get lost in translation. So we have these wonderful cues for communicating comprehension or confusion that are lost when we're not in the same room with one another. So I think over the longer time, they tend to complements, and over the shorter term, they tend to be substitutes.One of the things I think was helpful in my earlier work on this was looking at the history of information technology innovations. I think probably the first one is the book. It's hard to imagine an innovation that did more to flatten distance. Now you can read stuff that people are saying hundreds of miles away. Yet there's not a shred of evidence that the book led to less urbanization in Europe or to less connection. It helped create a totally different world in which people were passionate about ideas and wanted to talk to each other. They wanted to talk to each other about their books.Flash forward 350 years when we have the telephone. Telephones started being used more in cities, and they were used mostly by people who were going to meet face-to-face. There's no evidence that this has created a decline in the demand for face-to-face contact or a decline in the demand for cities. So I think if we look at Zoom, which unquestionably has allowed a certain amount of long-distance contact, that's very, very useful. In the short run, it certainly poses a threat to urban office markets. My guess is in the long run; it's probably going to be likely to be neutral at worst for face-to-face contact in the cities that enable that contact. Dwarkesh Patel 0:33:37I think that my podcast has been a great example for me about this. I mean, right now we're talking virtually. So maybe, in a way it's substituted, and perhaps I would have interviewed in person without the podcast. However, in another way, I've also met so many people that I've interviewed on the podcast or who have just connected with me because of the podcast in person. The amount of in-person interactions I've had because of a virtual podcast is a great anecdote to what you're talking about, so that makes total sense.Edward Glaeser 0:34:05Absolutely.Dwarkesh Patel 0:34:06Why do even the best software engineers in India or in Europe make so much less when they're working remotely from those locations than remote engineers working in America make? I mean, why don't employers just pay them more until the price discrepancy goes away?Edward Glaeser 0:34:23That's interesting. I don't fully know the answer to that question. I would suspect some of it just has to do with the nature of supply and demand. There are some things that are just very hard to be done remotely. Either because you have very precise informational needs that you have that are easier to communicate to people who are nearby or the person who's nearby has evolved in ways in terms of their mind that they actually know exactly what you want and they have exactly the product that you need. So even though the remote call center worker and the local one may be totally equivalent on raw programming talent, you may still end up in equilibrium and be willing to pay a lot more to the local one just because, right?So there's a slightly differentiated skill the local one has, and look, there's just a lot of competition for the remote ones, so the price is going to be pretty low. There's not that much supply of the one guy who's down the hall and knows exactly what you're looking for. So that guy gets much higher wages, just because he can offer you something that no one else can exactly reproduce.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:27Let me clarify my question. Even remote engineers in America will make more than remote engineers in Europe or in India. If somebody is working remotely but he just happens to live in the US, is that just because they can communicate in English in the same way? Edward Glaeser 0:35:54I would take the same stance. I would say that they're likely to have just skills that are somewhat idiosyncratic and are valued in the US context.Dwarkesh Patel 0:35:56Are you optimistic about the ability of the metaverse and VR to be able to better puncture whatever makes in-person contact so valuable?Edward Glaeser 0:36:19No, I do not think the metaverse is going to change very much. I do think that there will be a lot of hours spent on various forms of gaming over the next 20 years, but I don't think it ultimately poses much of a threat to real-world interactions. In some sense, we saw this with the teenage world over the last three years. We saw a lot of America spend an awful lot of time, 15, 16-year-olds, 17-year-olds, gaming and connecting entirely virtually during the whole time of the pandemic lockdowns.Every single person that I've seen in that cohort, when you allowed them to interact with real members of their group live, leaped at the opportunity. They leaped at the opportunity of meeting and actually hanging out with real people until three o'clock in the morning and arguing over whatever it is–– whether or not it's football or Kant. I think particularly for the young, living life live just beats the alternative.Dwarkesh Patel 0:37:05That sounds like a very Harvard scenario, having to argue over football or Kant, those two topics. [laughs] Are you predicting lower taxes over the coming decades in places like California and New York, specifically because of how remote work sets a sort of maximum bar of how much you can tax highly productive people before they will just leave? Edward Glaeser 0:37:29This is a great question. It's a central issue of our day. Here's how I think about it. In part, it's why I wrote my recent book, Survival of the City. It's because I was worried about this. Two things happened simultaneously. One, as you correctly say, Zoom has made it easier to connect anywhere. I don't think that Zoom is going to cause our tech startup currently in Silicon Valley to say, oh, you know what? We're just going to go home to our Orange County suburban homes and never meet live again. I think that's a low-probability event.But what seems to be a perfectly high probability event is saying, “Oh, we can Zoom with our VCs, we can Zoom with our lawyers. Why don't we just relocate to Austin, Texas, not pay taxes, or relocate to Boulder, Colorado, so we can have beautiful scenery, or relocate to Honolulu so we can surf?” That seems like we've made the ability for smart people to relocate much easier, even if they're going to keep on seeing each other in the office three or four days a week. That collides with this very fervent desire to deal with festering social inequities at the local level. Be this limited upward mobility for poorer people, be this high housing costs, be this the rise of mass incarceration and police brutality towards particularly minority groups. There's this progressive urge which runs up against the fact that the rich guys can run away.If your model, which says, “Oh, the local governments are going to realize the rich guys can run away, so they will seamlessly lower tax rates in order to make sure that they attract those people,” that's running up against the fact that there's a whole lot of energy on the progressive side, which says, “No! Massachusetts just passed a millionaire's tax. For the first time ever, we have the possibility to have a progressive tax, which feels extraordinarily dangerous given this time period.”I think we may need to see a bunch of errors in this area before we start getting things right. We went through a lot of pain in the 1970s as cities first tried to deal with their progressive goals and rich people and companies ran away, and it wasn't until the 1980s that people started realizing this was the path to local bankruptcy and that we had real city limits on what the locality could do.Dwarkesh Patel 0:39:44You cited research on the survival of the city, which said that firms like Microsoft were much less willing to hire new people once they went online because of the pandemic. What do you make of the theory that this is similar to when industrialization first hit and we hadn't figured out exactly how to make the most use of it to be most productive, but over the long run, somebody will do to remote work what Henry Ford did to the factory floor and in fact, just make it much more effective and efficient than in-person contact just because we'll have better ways of interacting with people through remote work, since we'll have better systems?Dwarkesh Patel 0:40:17It's entirely possible. I never like betting against the ingenuity of humanity. On the other hand, you need a lot of technology to override 5 million years of evolution. We have evolved to be an in-person species, not just because we're productive and learn a lot face-to-face, but also because we just like it. A world of hyper-efficient remote work where you basically are puttering around your apartment doing things very quickly and getting things done, doesn't sound particularly joyful to me.Workplaces are not just places of productivity; they're also places of pleasure, particularly at the high end. Remember in 2019 and earlier, Google, and Yahoo, the companies that should have had the biggest capacity to do remote stuff, weren't sending their workers home; they were building these paradises for high-skilled workers, stuffed with foosball tables and free snacks and whatever else they had in these giant campuses in the Google lex. So they were certainly betting on the power of face-to-face and creativity rather than on the ability of remote work to make everything work. I think the most reasonable view, let's say that of Nick Bloom of Stanford, is that for those types of workers, 20% of your week being hybrid, maybe 40%, seems quite possible.That seems like a thing, particularly for workers who have families who really value that degree of flexibility. But fully remote, I guess that's a pretty niche thing. There's some jobs like call center workers where you could imagine it being the norm, but in part, that's just because it's just hard to learn the same amount remotely that you do face-to-face. This came out both in the earlier Bloom study on remote call center workers in China and on more recent work by Natalia Emmanuel and Emma Harrington. Both studies found the same thing, which is in these call centers, are plenty productive when they're remote, but the probability of being promoted drops by 50%.The entrepreneur may make it very efficient to do things in the short run remotely, but they're going to turn off this tendency that we have to be able to learn things from people around us, which is just much harder to duplicate remotely.Past & Future of Silicon ValleyDwarkesh Patel 0:42:29Now, I'm curious why Silicon Valley became the hub of technology. You wrote a paper in 2018 about where pioneer and non-pioneer firms locate. So, I was hoping you had insight on this. Does it stand for it? Is it where Fairchild Semiconductor is located? What is the explanation?Edward Glaeser 0:42:48So, we take it as being earlier. It is Stanford. I traced through this, I think in Triumph. Yeah, it was a company called Federal Telegraph Company that was founded by a guy called Cyril Frank Elwell, who was a radio pioneer, and he was tapped by his teacher to head this radio company. The story was, as I remember it, there'd been this local genius in San Francisco who had attracted all these investors and was going to do this wireless telegraphy company. Then he died in a freak carriage accident.These investors wanted to find someone else, and they went to Stanford's nearby factory and asked, who should we hire? It was this guy Elwell who founded Federal Telegraph. Federal Telegraph then licensed, I think Danish technology which was originally the Poulsen Telegraph Company. They then hired some fairly bright people like Lee DeForest and they did incredibly well in World War I off of federal Navy contracts, off of Navy contracts. They then did things like providing jobs for people like the young Fred Terman, whose father was a Stanford scientist. Now, Fred Terman then plays an outsized role in this story because he goes to MIT, studies engineering there, and then comes back to become Dean of Stanford's engineering program.He really played an outsized role in setting up the Stanford Industrial Park which attracting Fairchild Semiconductor. Then there's this sort of random thing about how the Fairchild Semiconductor attracts these people and then repels them because you have this brilliant guy Shockley, right? He's both brilliant and sort of personally abhorrent and manages to attract brilliant people and then repel all of them. So they all end up dispersing themselves into different companies, and they create this incredibly creative ecosystem that is the heart of Silicon Valley.In its day, it had this combination of really smart people and really entrepreneurial ethos, which just made it very, very healthy. I think the thing that many of us worry about is that Silicon Valley more recently, feels much more like it's a one-industry town, which is dangerous. It feels more like it's a bunch of industrial behemoths rather than a bunch of smart and scrappy startups. That's a recipe that feels much more like Detroit in the 1950s than it does like Silicon Valley in the 1960s.Dwarkesh Patel 0:45:52Speaking of startups, what does your study of cities imply about where tech startups should locate and what kind of organization in person or otherwise they should have? I think there's a lot to like about in person, certainly. Relying too much on remote feels quite dangerous if you're a scrappy startup. But I like a lot the Sunbelt smart cities.I sort of have a two-factor model of economic growth, which is it's about education, and it's about having governments that are pro-business. If you think about sort of the US, there's a lot of heterogeneity in this. If you think about the US versus other countries, it's heterogeneity. So the US has historically been better at being pro-business than, let's say, the Northern European social democracies, but the Northern European social democracies are great on the education front.So places like Sweden and the Netherlands, and Germany are also very successful places because they have enough education to counter the fact that they may not necessarily be as pro-business as the US is. Within the US, you also have this balance, whereas places like Massachusetts, and California are certainly much less pro-business, but they're pretty well-educated. Other parts of the country may be more pro-business, but they're less so. The real secret sauce is finding those places that are both highly educated and pro-business.So those are places like Charlotte and Austin and even Atlanta, places in the Sun Belt that have attracted lots of skilled people. They've done very, very well during COVID. I mean, Austin, by most dimensions, is the superstar of the COVID era in terms of just attracting people. So I think you had to wait for the real estate prices to come down a bit in Austin, but those are the places that I would be looking at. Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:46I don't know if you know, but I live in Austin, actually.Edward Glaeser 0:47:50I did not know that. [laughs]Dwarkesh Patel 0:47:54Well, actually, I'm surprised about what you said about education because you write in the paper, “general knowledge measured as average years of schooling is not a strong determinant of the survival of a pioneer firm, but relatedness of knowledge between past and present activities is.” So I'm surprised that you think education is a strong determinant for pioneer firms.Edward Glaeser 0:48:15No, I'm a big human capital determinist. So I tend to believe that individuals, cities, and nations rise and fall based on their skill levels. Certainly, if you look over the last 40 or 50 years, skills are very predictive of which cities (particularly colder cities) manage to do well versus poorly. If you ask yourself why Detroit and Seattle look different, more than 50% of Seattle's adults have college degrees, and maybe 14, 15% of Detroit's adults do.That's just a huge, huge gap. Certainly, when we think about your punitive startup, you're going to be looking for talent, right? You're going to be looking to hire talent, and having lots of educated people around you is going to be helpful for that.Housing ReformDwarkesh Patel 0:48:56Let's talk about housing. Houston has basically very little to no zoning. Why is it not more of interesting today? Nobody goes to Houston for tourism.Edward Glaeser 0:49:07I have. [laughs] I have, in fact, gone to Houston for tourism. Although part of it, I admit, was to look at the housing and to go to the woodlands and look at that. Interesting has a lot to do with age in this country. So the more that a city has… Boston is good for tourism just because it's been around for a long time, and it hasn't changed all that much. So it has this sort of historical thing. Houston's a new place, not just in the sense that the chronological age is lower but also in the sense that it's just grown so much, and it's dominated by new stuff, right?That new stuff tends to be more homogenous. It tends to have less history on it. I think those are things that make new cities typically less interesting than older cities. As witnessed by the fact that Rome, Jerusalem, London, are great tourist capitals of the world because they've just accreted all this interesting stuff over the millennium. So I think that's part of it. I'm not sure that if we look at more highly zoned new cities, we're so confident that they're all that more interesting.I don't want to be particularly disparaging any one city. So I'm not going to choose that, but there's actually a bunch that's pretty interesting in Houston, and I'm not sure that I would say that it's any less interesting than any comparably aged city in the country.Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:35Yeah. I'm visiting Houston later this month. I asked my friend there, should I stay here longer? I mean, is there anything interesting to do here? And then he responds, “Well, it's the fourth biggest city in the country, so no.”Dwarkesh Patel 0:50:47Many people, including many economists, have said that we should drastically increase US population through immigration to a figure like 1 billion. Do you think that our cities could accommodate that? We have the infrastructure, and I mean, let's say we reformed housing over a decade or so. Could we accommodate such a large influx of people? Edward Glaeser 0:51:24A billion people in a decade? I love the vision. Basically, in my heart, I'm an open borders person, right? I mean, it's a moral thing. I don't really like the idea that I get to enjoy the privileges of being an American and think that I'm going to deny that opportunity to anyone else. So I love this vision. A billion people over 10 years is an unimaginably large amount of people over a relatively short period of time. I'd love to give it a shot. I mean, it's certainly not as if there's any long-term reason why you couldn't do it.I mean, goodness knows we've got more than enough space in this country. It would be exciting to do that. But it would require a lot of reform in the housing space and require a fair amount of reform in the infrastructure space as well to be able to do this at some kind of large scale affordability.Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:05What does the evidence show about public libraries? Do they matter?Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:09My friend Eric Kleinberg has written a great book about… I think it's called Palaces for the People about all the different functions that libraries have played. I've never seen anything statistically or systematically about this, but you're not going to get a scholar to speak against books. It's not a possible thing.Europe's Stagnation, Mumbai's Safety, & Climate Change Dwarkesh Patel 0:52:32Why do European cities seem so much more similar to what they look like decades or even centuries ago than American cities, even American cities that are old, obviously not as old as European cities, but they seem to change much more over time. Edward Glaeser 0:52:46Lower population growth, much tougher zoning, much tougher historic preservation. All three of these things are going on. So it's very difficult to build in European cities. There's a lot of attention to caring about history. It's often part of the nationalist narrative. You often have huge amounts of national dollars going to preserve local stuff and relatively lower levels of population growth.An extreme example of this is Warsaw, where central Warsaw is completely destroyed during World War II, and they built it up to look exactly like it looked before the bombing. So this is a national choice, which is unlikely that we would necessarily make here in the US. Dwarkesh Patel 0:53:27Yeah. I was in Mumbai earlier this year, and I visited Dharavi, which is the biggest slum in Asia. And it's a pretty safe place for a slum. Why are slums in different countries? Why do they often have different levels of how safe they are? What is the reason?Edward Glaeser 0:53:45I, too, have been in Dharavi and felt perfectly safe. It's like walking around Belgravia and London in terms of it. I think my model of Dharavi is the same model as Jane Jacobs's model of Greenwich Village in 1960, which is this is just a well-functioning community.People have eyes on the street. If you're a stranger in these areas, they're going to be looking at you, and it's a community that just functions. There are lots of low-income communities throughout the world that have this. It requires a certain amount of permanence. So if the community is too much in flux, it becomes hard to enforce these norms and hard to enforce these sort of community rules. It's really helpful if there aren't either a massive number of guns floating around or an unbelievably lucrative narcotics trade, which is in the area. Those are both things that make things incredibly hard. Furthermore, US drug policy has partially been responsible for creating violence in some of the poor parts of Latin American cities.Dwarkesh Patel 0:54:43Maybe you don't play video games enough to know the answer to this question. But I'm curious, is there any video game, any strategic video game like Civilization or Europa that you feel does a good job representing the economics of cities? Edward Glaeser 0:55:07No, I will say that when I was in graduate school, I spent a few hours playing something called Sim City. I did think that was very fun. But I'm not going to claim that I think that it got it right. That was probably my largest engagement with city-building video games.Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:12What would you say we understand least about how cities work? Edward Glaeser 0:55:18I'm going to say the largest unsolved problem in cities is what the heck we're going to do about climate change and the cities of the developing world. This is the thing I do not feel like I have any answer for in terms of how it is that we're going to stop Manila or Mumbai from being leveled by some water-related climate event that we haven't yet foreseen.We think that we're going to spend tens of billions of dollars to protect New York and Miami, and that's going to happen; but the thing I don't understand and something we really need to need to invest in terms of knowledge creation is what are we going to do with the low-lying cities of the developing world to make them safe. Dwarkesh Patel 0:55:54Okay. Your most recent book is Survival of the City. And before that Triumph of the City, both of which I highly recommend to readers. Professor Glaeser, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was very interesting.Edward Glaeser 0:56:05I enjoyed this a lot. Thank you so much for having me on. I had a great deal of fun. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.dwarkeshpatel.com

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual's life in ways both good and bad. So in today's episode, I'll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We'll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I'll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication's role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine's Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

Encourage And Celebrate Those Around You Who Serve Christ. It Will Give Them New Energy Philippians 2:28 - 30 28Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.

Today on Entrepreneur Conundrum we are joined by Jennifer Ireson and we discuss how she is making HR fun! Jennifer helps businesses grow solid teams. She has been in human resources for over 20 years and has been Chartered Professional in human resources since 2007. She holds her Master of Education and adult learning Bachelor of Science and is a professional human ecologist. Recently she has completed her registered professional recruiter studies. In 2019, Jennifer opened Casey consulting and when she incorporated the husband into her life and 2021, she incorporated her business into balanced perspectives. She feels that growing companies need someone with experience to set up their employees for success. She covers all areas of HR from hire to retire, but focus is on employee relations and setting companies up for HR success. A self professed policy geek Jennifer loves a good employee manual. Jennifer has a passion for training and development of employees, and has been teaching at the northwestern Polytechnic in the continuing education department for over six years. Listen in and Let Balanced Perspectives help guide you through the process-get it done right the first time.Key Questions:Virginia  01:44So what inspired you to go out on your own and to have your own business?Virginia  03:02So true. So what do you like most about the work that you do?Virginia  05:19What's a common mistake that you're seeing a lot of your clients making?Virginia  07:21Who is your ideal client?Virginia  12:16Do you think that the HR aspect would be a lot different working with those, let's say in the States?Virginia  13:29So what are a couple of big goals that you're looking to achieve in the next year or two?Virginia  15:53How would that goal change your business?Virginia  16:40What do you think's the biggest roadblock for that stopping you or getting in your way from, from getting that program out?Virginia  17:53So what do you do to get in front of your ideal clients?Virginia  22:07So what's the best advice you have ever received?Virginia  24:19So is there anything that you wanted to share with us that we haven't talked about yet? Jennifer Iresonhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/balanced-perspectives/Balanced Perspectives Inc.https://www.instagram.com/balancedperspectiveshr/ Virginia PurnellFunnel & Visibility SpecialistDistinct Digital Marketing(833) 762-5336virginia@distinctdigitalmarketing.comwww.distinctdigitalmarketing.comBook a Free Call http://bit.ly/DDMBookACallEC

Lori Bean and Alyssa Rabin are back together in this episode to interview Registered Provisional Psychologist Paige Burles. Paige specializes in child psychology, though she also works with adults, at Maliya. She explains why her passion is for helping children make connections and find ways of communicating needs and deal with struggles. Paige answers questions from both Lori and Alyssa about exactly what art therapy, play therapy, and behavioral therapy are and what they look like when used in working with children. Paige details how much information children can give when they are comfortable and communicating at a level they understand, such as during play. She examines the notion that children are seeking connection and by examining problematic behaviors we can identify unmet needs. Lori and Alyssa, both parents, agree and offer that parents are tired and can't be experts at everything for their children. A psychologist like Paige, who involves the parents in the therapeutic process, can be invaluable for instilling children with helpful coping skills that they will carry into adulthood.About Paige Burles:Paige Burles is a Registered Provisional Psychologist with the College of Alberta Psychologists. She holds a master's degree in counselling psychology and a bachelor's degree in child studies. Paige has been working in the field of mental health for 10 years and has a special interest in early intervention. Paige's passion is supporting young children from the ages 4 through adolescence. She has an exceptional ability to connect with children that have had difficulty trusting and working with others. Paige specializes in working with anxiety, emotional dysregulation, ADHD, trauma, adjustment and behavioral issues. This is Paige's true calling and she thanks you for trusting her with those who are the most precious in your life. Paige provides a safe space for your children to explore their experiences, facilitate deep change, and gain the tools necessary to support them throughout the rest of their lives. Paige prides herself on setting your children up to navigate their futures with support, guidance and unconditional love.  Paige also has extensive work experience with adults and would be happy to work with you if you are seeking relief from anxiety, depression, ADHD, trauma, emotional dysregulation, or wanting support with self-compassion, overcoming shame, setting boundaries, etc. Paige uses evidence-based treatments in her practice. She is trained in dialectical behavior therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, emotion focused therapy, mindfulness-based approaches, solution focused and brief therapy, and in prolonged exposure for treating PTSD.— Maliya: website | instagram | facebookPaige Burles | Registered Provisional Psychologist: website | linkedin TranscriptionLori Bean  00:56Hello, everybody, I am Lori Bean. Alyssa Rabin  01:00And I'm Alyssa Rabin. Lori Bean  01:02And we want to welcome today, Paige Burles, who is our psychologist at Maliya, who specializes in children therapy. Alyssa Rabin  01:13Child psychology, and pre-teen psychology. Thank God because I have one of each. Lori Bean  01:24And we just really wanted to talk today about why you should consider bringing your children in for therapy. So Paige works with kids from the ages of 4 to 13. When you know it's time to do that, what type of therapy she does. And we just know how incredible she is. And the feedback we get from parents, and how life changing this is, along with not only dealing with the issues they're having with their children now, but these tools that they leave with, which they can have with them for the rest of their lives, and really grow into these fully flourishing, self confident adults with all these amazing abilities to socialize and have the sense of self worth and-- Alyssa Rabin  02:13-- to be able to self soothe and more or less work on their issues instead of looking elsewhere. They leave with the tools to help themselves. So welcome Paige. Paige Burles  02:27Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. Excited and nervous. Lori Bean  02:30It's all good. I think this is like such an important topic. My kids are in their 20s and back in the day, we really didn't take our kids for therapy or support at all, it really wasn't available unless your kids had very well known issues or it was advised by a teacher or... it took a lot to seek help. And it literally wasn't readily available. A lot of the times you'd have to at the hospital, you'd have to see a psychiatrist, and it was a rough go. And in reflection, I really believe now that if we had this available, there's no question I would have taken both kids even though they were fully functional. Every kid has an issue just for support, and I wasn't alone in navigating them. And I just would love to talk about-- Alyssa Rabin  03:29-- how it's changed. Lori Bean  03:30Yeah, how it's changed. Alyssa Rabin  03:32And Paige and I have just were just talking before this about how mental health and children and adolescents has - thank God - becomes so, not prominent, but there's an awareness of it, because it's been like this forever. And now we're just realizing, oh, it's okay. And we have help. Lori Bean  03:58Yeah. And we have, it's really about seeking help. There's no handbook as a parent. And, boy, imagine having somebody you can trust that creates this beautiful, safe relationship with your children. And they're not always looking to you and you're not always desperate for support. So maybe tell us a little bit about why this is your specialty. Paige Burles  04:19That's a great place to start. I'd love to. I think what really brought, well I know what really brought me into just really feeling passionate about working with young people was kind of my own struggles and then later in my life after going through many many unpleasant experiences in my adolescent years and early adulthood, finally getting support and learning all of these skills and all these things. I remember thinking, like, I wish I knew this when I was younger. Like I wish that, I think a big thing for me was even just the shame of the some of the struggles I dealt with. And then finally once it got bad enough to the point where, like you said, it's like now it's bad enough so we have to deal with it. Then realizing, Oh, the things I was struggling with earlier on were normal and other people struggled with that. And then this is what you do. I think one of the big things I learned early on was even just being honest, because shame just got in the way of comparing yourself to other people, and nowadays with social media, and kids need support because they are comparing themselves to the select few that are getting all the, you know, followers or likes or whatever it is these days, right? Alyssa Rabin  05:35Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Lori Bean  05:37So how do you know, like, I guess this is my question. All parents have challenges with their children. So how do you know - you have a four year old, so four is like sort of the age where you would start navigating care - how do you know it's time to seek help? How do you know as a parent, that they need tools that perhaps you're not aware of, or you can't provide them with? And there's not really like a disability, or they haven't been given a diagnoses? Like, do you know what I mean? Paige Burles  06:10Yeah, and I think that's a tough question. Because I think if it was really clear, your child's doing this, go do this. Yeah, that would be I mean, I wish I could, I wish there was something like that out there. And I think, listening to yourself of, you know, if you are noticing some struggles, I think, a big thing for me and why I love like, I go to therapy myself, even to this day, I'm like, no, I don't have any, like really big glaring issues that I'm not functioning or whichever, however, I've learned through therapy, and just, I don't know, all of my education stuff, that hey, I don't have to settle. So if there's something I'm struggling with, I'd like some support with, I've tried working on it on my own, or I've tried a couple things, not having some success, I don't have to just accept it. Well, that's just who I am. And I'm always going to be this way. Or, you know, my kid just is always going to do this - or I hate this - but I just have a quote/unquote bad kid or my kid just acts out. And that's, you know, no. Lori Bean  07:09They normalize the behavior. Alyssa Rabin  07:10And I, just speaking from personal experience, I have two girls, they're four and a half years apart, and they are the complete opposite. Like I'm talking I cannot believe they're from the same parent. So what I've been finding is what will work with one child totally does not work with the other child. And I don't know what does. I've tried everything in my ability to be a good parent, to help them, and it's still not working. And that's when I realize I'm not a psychologist. I only have tools that I was born with, that I've learned, that I've whatever, even if it's something as minute as they're having issues sleeping at night. I have no frickin clue what to do. I'm going to call somebody else to do it. I'm not a specialist, I need to go somewhere else to get the help. Lori Bean  08:08Yeah, cuz there's no, there's really, it goes back to there's no handbook and what worked for one-- Alyssa Rabin  08:12-- oh, does not work for the other. Paige Burles  08:15Or there's thousands of handbooks, and it's completely overwhelming, and is that going to fit specifically my child and what my child needs? And that's a great reason to go talk to someone who, myself, has read many, many, many of those books, obviously, not all of them, that's impossible. How could I expect any parent to do that? And I can take what I know and we can find a plan and develop something that fits for your kid, if your kid doesn't actually fit what this specific book is saying to do. Alyssa Rabin  08:43So how do you figure out what type of therapy works for which child? Paige Burles  08:49Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, in that where it starts, is it starts with connection. That's, I mean, overarching, if you look at things that contribute to success in therapy, it always comes back to the therapeutic alliance. That is, across the ages, it's we see that the therapeutic alliance. I think it's even tenfold with children, they need that connection. Alyssa Rabin  09:11So if they mesh with you or not. Paige Burles  09:13Yeah, so that's really important. I think that's what I feel, I'm not... you guys have known this in the time you've spent with me, I'm not one to kind of boast about myself. And I really feel like that's something I've just found is just a natural gift with me, is I can connect with children. Alyssa Rabin  09:30You know when you just meet those people, and you just know, you'd be like, Oh my god, they should be like, not just a kindergarten teacher, but an elementary school teacher who would be amazing with all the kids. Yeah, that's Paige. Lori Bean  09:42Yeah. Yeah, it is a gift that you have. Paige Burles  09:46So I think that's what it is, you know, it starts with connection. And then I really, you know, I involve the parents. I involve the child, you know, depending on on their developmental level and where they're at, like, it's really important that they're involved and they're directing therapy, because especially if some of these behaviors are coming because they're trying to gain a sense of control, we want them to feel like this is a safe space and that they have control here, we're not forcing them to do anything that they're not comfortable doing. It's going at their pace and meeting them where they're at. So I really think it starts with a connection. And then it's a team approach. Like, it's not just, like I said, I'm not the expert, I'm not going to come talk to a parent say, I'm the expert on your child, do this. It's let's work together. What do you know that works for your child? What have you tried, what's worked, what hasn't worked? Let's all meet with the kid to kind of get to know them. And then just start kind of incorporating. I really take this approach of, I'm a scientist, we're all scientists, we're doing trial and error. We're testing out kind of what works because me and my brother, too, very different. What worked for him, worked really well for him. I needed something completely different, right? I needed to find my own way. Alyssa Rabin  10:56I do love though, that you just said that you ask the parent what has worked and what hasn't worked? Because I have found in my past experience with taking my kids to therapy, I don't think I have ever had a therapist ask me that. And like, it's just like, I've actually got goosebumps right now, it actually just... oh my god. Lori Bean  11:24Yeah, because you're the person that knows. Alyssa Rabin  11:27And you're the person who has tried. So it's not just like you're beating a dead horse saying, do this, do this do this. That's genius. I love that. Paige Burles  11:38Oh, because your kid has ADHD, then you do this. It's like, well, that might not work for my kid with ADHD. It doesn't all look the same. Right? Alyssa Rabin  11:45If we've already tried that, and it's not working, or if we've tried something, maybe you can tweak it. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Paige Burles  11:51And how does that kid connect as well, right? Because I know for myself, I was not someone that was expressive through art. That was a struggle for me, whereas other children, that's what helps them get deeper. Lori Bean  12:07Okay, so I've heard a lot about art therapy lately. And we get a lot of questions, does she do art therapy? Alyssa Rabin  12:13Or play therapy. Paige Burles  12:15Yeah, it's so much deeper than that. Lori Bean  12:15Yeah, I actually have no clue what that actually is. Can you just explain it because my impression. And so, again, my kids are in their 20s. All I know about play therapy is back in the day, we learned that when a kid is sexually abused or assaulted or what have you, they get these dolls, which are parental figures or extended family, whatever, and they play out the interaction. That is that is the extensive what I know of play or art or whatever therapy, maybe you can speak to that a little more clearly. Lori Bean  12:29Yeah, why use it? Paige Burles  12:50Yeah, well, and I guess we'll start with this. And I learned this so so early on in my undergrad because my undergrad was child studies. I almost dropped out of school, I started in business school, thought this is not for me, maybe school isn't for me. And then let's just try this. And then I found it. So one of the first things they talk about is just how play is the universal language of children. All across the whole world, all children play. And that's how they learn and experience and process things is through play. So incorporating play into therapy is really just meeting the child where they're at and finding their avenue of how can we test this out? Or how can we maybe understand a little bit deeper of what's going on, that they might not have the words to put to yet. But maybe they're gonna express it through play. So play can provide a ton of information, it can also provide ability for connection with the child, and allowing them in their way, in a way that they feel safe doing, to explore, to be curious. I think we can all remember, you know, being kids with Barbies and just being curious. And it was a safe place to do that. And especially with therapy, I think therapy can be, you know, as much as I do my best to create this safe space and just my energy that I try to put out, can still be uncomfortable just to go and talk to a new person. And so finding a way to create or meet them on their level and allow them to lead it. Lori Bean  14:25Because I was just thinking, like, back to my daughter when she was little, she never really played, she did art. So she was very into art, but she wasn't really into play. So I think that's really interesting because you can just sort of see how they navigate whatever you present and follow their lead, I guess, to create that connection. Paige Burles  14:46Yeah, and that's the cool thing about play, incorporating play into therapy and using art, is that we can kind of remove the limits. Because with art, they just have kind of a blank canvas or whatever and some colors... I mean, you never know what's kind of going to come out. Right? And maybe it's going to facilitate a conversation of oh, like, you know what, you know, why did you choose this color and oh, because of this, and then it goes deeper and deeper. Lori Bean  15:13Can you give, I thought this was the most beautiful example you gave of a child that you saw that was quite anxious, and perfectionist, because I'm just thinking of myself. Like, if you asked me to draw something, I wouldn't, because it wouldn't be perfect. And what, are you going to judge it? And what have you? Alyssa Rabin  15:28You know, I know a good psychologist. Lori Bean  15:35But then you said, I thought this was so brilliant, you asked him to draw scribble, just scribble. Because there's no perfectionism in scribble. And then what did you do from there? Because I thought, I could do that. Paige Burles  15:47Yeah, so we started with a scribble, and then turned it into a picture. And that was just a cool experience. And again, like, when people hear play therapy, they might not even think that, and that is incorporating let's use something fun to practice. Okay, I can start with something that isn't perfect and I can turn it into something and create something with that. And that's what we were really trying to do is have some fun with not being perfect, not having to follow the rules. Lori Bean  16:15Draw in the lines or draw a duck or.... Alyssa Rabin  16:18Another thing that I love about play therapy, or art therapy, is the kid doesn't have to sit there for an hour and sit and talk to you. What child, let alone adult, from personal experience, can sit there for an hour and just talk? This way they're active, and they do things with their hands, and they're moving-- Lori Bean  16:43-- and expressing-- Alyssa Rabin  16:45--and describing. Now, during your therapy sessions, are the parents always involved in the sessions? Like are they always in the room with you? Paige Burles  16:53It depends, I really like to have time with the child. I think that sometimes when a parent's in the room, it can change the energy that's in the room. I'm very curious of what, is there a difference when this child is not in the room with their parents, versus when the parent is there. Not judging, just being curious and kind of noticing what happens. And I think that through art and stuff, that's a way that maybe allows them to kind of engage in something else if they do have some anxiety about mom not being in the room. Right? So an ability as well. Because if there is a child who's really attached to mom, doesn't want to leave mom, let's work with that. Let's give that child an opportunity to experience some of that and then process through it. And then talk about hey, how did you do that? Alyssa Rabin  17:41Well, interesting about that is, so my youngest, eventually realized she prefers therapy without me in the room. Because she said, 'You know what, Mom, I really realized I'm a totally different person when you're in the room than when you're not not'. And I'm like, 'Hmm I would love to be a fly on the wall'. Just kidding. But she really, really  realized how different she was with me there versus without me there. Paige Burles  18:20And how cool of an experience to have and then be like, I wonder what that's about. We don't need to judge whether it's good or bad or anything, but just notice that. What do you notice that's different? And then even if there's aspects that they kind of like, it's like, okay, how can we start to cultivate some of those things into your other experiences? Lori Bean  18:41So in addition to, like, art therapy and play therapy, there's something called behavioral therapy. So what is that? Is that facilitated with little kids? Older kids? I'm just trying to put the pieces together. Paige Burles  18:53Totally I think, I mean, behaviorism goes way, way, way back and when people hear behaviorism I think they think rewards and punishment. And it's much more than that now. And it was before as well. But how I incorporate behaviorism is really looking at, you know, when oftentimes with children, they come in because there are behavioral problems. The parents have identified, you know, the kid is, is aggressive or they're-- Lori Bean  18:56-- passive. It could be anything. Paige Burles  19:01Yeah, yeah, exactly. Alyssa Rabin  19:03Confrontational. Paige Burles  19:07Yeah. They're not, you know, not following the rules, or they're, you know, at school, there's problems. And what I find that behaviorism really helps with is really analyzing and being curious about what is going on, what is the function of that behavior, and what need is that behavior trying to meet? Because I think often, I mean, I experienced this, I wasn't the, you know, the teacher's pet or the favorite kid in the class. I was the kid that got kicked out and sat in the hall because I wouldn't stop talking. And I think we get labeled and earlier on, it was definitely you knew the kid that was the bad kid in class, right? And we'd go home and the parent would know who the bad kid in class was, and really shifting that, pulling away. Because, you know, what's the behavior? What purpose is that behavior serving? And what need is that kid trying to get met? Oftentimes, it's connection. Alyssa Rabin  20:20Okay, totally bringing childhood up for me. Had very loving parents, but had no idea how to relate to me. I had severe ADHD. It was never... Lori Bean  20:37It wasn't a thing. Alyssa Rabin  20:39It wasn't a thing, but they never knew how to handle me. It was always 'Why aren't you doing this? Why can't you do this?' Lori Bean  20:49Why can't you sit still?Alyssa Rabin  20:49Why can't you? Why can't you? Why? It was always on me. And there was never, let's sit down and see what's going on. And maybe if we can help you with this, if we can do something to succeed, it was always you're not doing this, therefore, you're not doing that. You know what I mean? They're like, holy reaction. Lori Bean  21:14And you can't, because you have all these behaviors, you can't do well, you can't succeed. Alyssa Rabin  21:21So you grow up, with zero confidence. Because you think you can't, you think you are not smart. That's what I grew up with my whole life. And still, as an adult, I went back to school and aced everything. But that was because I was on ADHD medication. Lori Bean  21:43But when we grew up, too, ADHD medication was Ritalin. Period. And it was bad. Alyssa Rabin  21:48Only the bad kids got it. Lori Bean  21:49It wasn't supported. Only the bad kids got it. Alyssa Rabin  21:52Oh my god. Paige Burles  21:53And the kids that are getting kicked out constantly, or making noise, or sitting in the back of the class. And for girls that can show up as the daydreamer. That was me, I was in my own little world. Alyssa Rabin  22:02Me too. I was in the clouds. And I was talking with everybody, and I wouldn't pay attention. And I didn't care but I did... Paige Burles  22:12Exactly. No, that's the thing is that kids want to well. The kids that, let's say, I mean, we do a lot better at this now, but even recognizing reading problems. And, you know, the kids that are struggling with reading, those are the kids that are trying the hardest. And when I was listening to a TED talk on the guy that he was talking about collaborative problem solving, he was talking about that, that, you know, the the kids that it just comes really naturally to, they're the ones that are doing really well. They're not trying hard. The kid that can't get through the page, that's trying really, really hard. So collaborative problem solving is about let's help that kid get, let's help with what's getting in the way, you know, because that kid wants to do well. So why aren't they? Alyssa Rabin  23:00So do you collaborate with the parents, the school, the teacher? Like everybody? Paige Burles  23:06The most important person to collaborate is that child. Yeah. Lori Bean  23:11How are they feeling? How are they processing information? And what is going on? Paige Burles  23:16Totally. And kids are so creative, like that's been the coolest thing, in my experience, in just allowing children to have just, like, open ended play and just open ended questions, and just allow them to create, to be curious, to just explore different ideas. Like imagine the conversations we'd be having in schools with kids if we really just allowed them to talk, like think out loud, and say things that are quote/unquote wrong. Lori Bean  23:48And you know what? For me just keeps coming back to this is why we need to ask for help as parents and get support because we are tired as parent. We are tired. You have one kid, like you said, that just does really well. They excel, it's easy. Your second child perhaps is more difficult. We're tired. We don't have the energy. We don't have the awareness. We don't know what we're looking for. We don't know how to help. We want to we get depleted ourselves and where our patience gets depleted, that's when we know. Paige Burles  24:22And that's so valid. Lori Bean  24:24Yes. 100% it's normal. But then we should be getting help. Paige Burles  24:30And even nowadays, like, what the kids are faced with in social media, in the schools, like we need to band together. Because every time I sit down with the kid I learned a new term. And I hear something new and no we're saying this now, no this. I learn what's cool and not cool. And a lot of things I say are not cool. Yeah, and I take that opportunity of like, they like to, like teach me, you know. They want to share that and they want to be, like, if you can just picture growing up if you played sports, you have coaches, you had that coach that's just constantly yelling and run harder, do this, do better, all that, versus that coach that is like proud of you for 'Hey, you almost made that. That was amazing. Like, let's keep going. You got this.'  And think of, as well, just what ends up being the voice in our head because for me it was that coach that said not enough, do better. Never like, not as good as this person, this person is the best, you like-- Lori Bean  25:38-- you're not enough. Paige Burles  25:39Exactly yeah, right. And what worked for that kid who was scoring all the baskets - I don't even play basketball - it's whatever's going on there isn't working for me. So work with me to find that out. Because what I needed was, I needed a different sport. I wanted to do dance, I wanted to, you know, and I had parents that helped kind of support that. And it took some time, though, but working with me of, you know, how do I want to work through this and and what does a solution to this problem look like for me? Because it might look different for someone else that's just telling me do it this way. Well that way doesn't work for me. I mean, TikTok, love TikTok, it's taught me all these different ways to solve math problems that are so creative, right? Whereas when I was in school, it was just like, this is the way you do it. Cross multiplication, what, I don't even know, whatever. Same with life. Life is math. I don't know. Alyssa Rabin  26:41Another thing I love, like you were talking before, that you have the parents totally involved. Because going through counseling with my kids, I always felt like I needed to know, not what exactly what they were talking about, but if there were any processes that they taught them, or any guidance there for if I could take it home, and I could help the child. Paige Burles  27:10That's so important, because I am with that... so let's say I'm with your child for one hour of a whole week, I don't know how many hours are in a week, but the change isn't going to happen in that hour, it's going to happen between the sessions. So bringing the parents in, because you're my best resource for modeling the behaviors that we're trying to teach the child, for providing as well feedback of what you're seeing, and troubleshooting, like, what works because again, like the same strategy, not gonna work for every kid. Lori Bean  27:42And I think sometimes as parents, we don't even see what we're doing. Like, for me, a lot of things have been in reflection. Like, oh, I was doing that. Like, you're so innocent. And sometimes we just need support to not be so embedded. Right. And get a different perspective. I think it's so normal. It's so important. Paige Burles  28:03I think in knowing that there's not one right way to do it. And that's what I think is overwhelming with all the information that we have online, this person says do it this way, this person says do it this way. And you're just trying to figure out what's the right thing to do. Lori Bean  28:19Yeah, and your child is an individual being, and we need to cater to them. That's kind of the bottom line. Paige Burles  28:29So yeah, so like, kind of circling back to when you talked about just behaviorism it's, it is so much more than let's just reward the things we like and discipline or punish the behaviors that we don't like. But it's looking at well, what what purpose, what function is that behavior serving? And then, as well, how might you be reinforcing that, or certain behaviors that you're not meaning to reinforce. Lori Bean  28:50As a parent. Paige Burles  28:51Totally. So I'll give an example that I really like to tell parents, is for children that are struggling with self harm, with suicidal behaviors, when that child self harms, or makes a threat about hurting themselves, and everybody drops what they're doing, and races and reacts and supports that kid, and what do you need, and we're here for you. What you might be doing is actually reinforcing the self harm. Because that kid learns that when I just, when it gets to this point, then I get what I need. But what they need is they need that connection earlier. So it provides so much information if we really look into the behaviors. And I need the parents for that, we need the whole team for that, is to understand. Because even when I look back at my life, and I'm sure we all can if we look and see things that we were doing, we were like, why was I oh, why was I like that? Or, you know, if I look back, I can see oh, this is what I needed that I wasn't getting and this behavior served this function, but then resulted in a bunch of other things I didn't want. So instead of just trying to change that behavior, let's go back even further and meet the need earlier. Lori Bean  30:04I'm even thinking of something so simple. So I, when I was a kid, I did not share what I needed, which probably a lot of kids don't, I had a lot of anxiety. But to get the attention and the connection that I was looking for, I didn't self harm, but I would like dress weird, or I would shave my head, or I would do... I'm just getting that now. I never really understood why I did those things. Yeah, I thought it was cool, whatever. But I know I was doing it to get a reaction that I was not getting. Alyssa Rabin  30:08Whether positive or negative. Some sort of reaction. Paige Burles  30:38Exactly. We even see this... I mean, I've worked in schools for, I worked in the school system for a few years, and noticing that, and even, you know, every time a kid calls out without raising their hand, but then they get the attention. And they might be realizing, oh, okay, so the attention, even though it's negative, is actually reinforcing that behavior. So we need to stop reacting to that. Because the punishment, quote/unquote, isn't working. And reinforce what we are trying to create more of and meet that kids need for connection. Alyssa Rabin  31:12Now there are other kids who actually do have issues. And it's not attention grabbing, because all I'm hearing in the back of my head right now is some parents going, but my kid doesn't have that issue. My kid doesn't, they actually have a problem, that's why they do it. So we're not saying that every kid is doing it for attention. Paige Burles  31:33Oh, my gosh no. Alyssa Rabin  31:34Like, there are some children who actually need some help. But trust me, my girls need to come see you. Lori Bean  31:46But I think, as a parent, that's part of parening. You can't give them everything they need. And you don't even know half the time. You just don't. Paige Burles  32:03Totally, and our kids, like, they're gonna struggle, we all struggled. And my struggles have brought me into the person I am today as well. So some of them, I'm like, oh, you know, if only there was, you know, someone that caught this earlier, and I've caught it now kind of thing. However, I do think I could have saved myself a lot of suffering and pain if I'd learned some of this stuff earlier in life. And that's what really just drives me to work with kids. I think that if we, as the world or our country or whatever, invested more into early intervention, we would save so much later on. Because it's preventative. Lori Bean  32:44Mental illness, physical illness, all of it, I agree Alyssa Rabin  32:49Absolutely agree. Paige Burles  32:50A lot of the adults that I've worked with, because I do work with adults as well. Alyssa Rabin  32:53Oh yeah she does work with adults. Paige Burles  32:58Like so many times, I've heard, like I've lost count, so many times I've heard I wish I knew this when I was a kid. Oh, I wish I knew this when I was younger. Like yep, like me, too. Me too. And we're here now so let's do what we can, let's teach our kids this. Let's, you know, let's, tell your friends. If you learn something cool in therapy, I'm like, tell your friends and help people. Like spread this. Lori Bean  33:21The bottom line is what I love so much, and I'm so grateful for, is all the practitioners here are here because they care deeply. And it is about safety. And it is about care. And help. Yeah, come over to Maliya, have a chat, see what we can help you with and support you with. Paige Burles  33:44And you know what, even coming back to the question you said before, about how do you know when is the time? Like book a consultation. We can figure that out together if now's the time, or even, I'll be the first one to say hey, I don't think I'm a good fit for you. Alyssa Rabin  33:58And we do here have, like, free initial consultation. So it'll be like a 20 minute phone call, in person, on Zoom. So you guys can come in, meet Paige, see if, like she said, it's a good fit. Lori Bean  34:13And what's possible. Alyssa Rabin  34:14Yeah, even like my last kind of bout in therapy, I was like, you know what, I just kind of want to level up, like, I just want to, you know, how can I improve the way that I'm functioning right now? So there doesn't have to be, you know, a glaring problem or anything. And, you know, let's teach the kids, let's teach parents some of these self regulation skills, some problem solving, how do we tolerate discomfort and distress. Because if it hasn't happened yet, it's gonna happen. So let's help now so then we're prepared. Lori Bean  34:49And we have the tools. Paige Burles  34:49Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. Now I'm super chill. At the beginning of this I was not. Lori Bean  34:59Because when you speak your truth, and you're in alignment and in integrity with why you're showing up in the world, it's easy. We love you. Paige Burles  35:08Thanks for having me. Alyssa Rabin  35:10Bye.

  Today our guest is Simon Severino and he is all about sprinting.  "We have worked with 524 CEOs to gain market shares in sprints." SimonIn 19 years of entrepreneurship Simon executed hundreds of go-to-market strategies with B2B teams around the globe.He scaled his own consultancy and have retired from operations. He reached financial freedom and became an investor. Since then he has helped thousands of entrepreneurs reach financial freedom and has a firm that runs without being dependent on them.Today, he shares his blueprints with B2B leaders like you. Tune in this week to learn more from Simon!Key Questions:Virginia 00:48How you kind of are where you are?Virginia 02:43How was it when you came to realize that you had to fire yourself? And then actually going through with that, like, what were some of the thoughts that were going through your head?Virginia 05:34So you kind of find that that's one of the most common mistakes that you see with your clients. Is that their egos in the way?Virginia 07:29So is there a niche that you serve?Virginia 08:48So how do you guys get in front of them?Virginia 11:21What are some big goals that you're looking to achieve over the next year or two?Virginia 13:03Do you feel like there's any roadblocks or the what's the number one roadblock that you feel is kind of might be in the way from you achieving those goals?Virginia 15:39What is the best advice that you've ever received?Virginia17:07Do you give advice? Simon SeverinoBrand Sprint and Scaling Up - Strategy SprintsStrategy Sprintsstrategysprintshttps://www.instagram.com/strategysprints/https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonseverino/Strategy Sprints‌Virginia PurnellFunnel & Visibility SpecialistDistinct Digital Marketing(833) 762-5336virginia@distinctdigitalmarketing.comwww.distinctdigitalmarketing.comBook a Free Call http://bit.ly/DDMBookACallEC

Who is Emma?Emma helps creative people get to their next level of business success through accountability, and business and strategy coaching. Her coaching work often centres around confidence building, mindset work and designing strategies to move people from where they are to where they want to be.Key Takeaways1. you've got to find your audience, and market to those people. You can't please everybody.2. Your greatest success is likely when you share work that was very personal to you and had a very strong message that you are passionate about. But that takes quite a lot of courage to show up like this, because obviously, you leave yourself vulnerable to somebody saying, oh, that's awful. I hate it, which rarely actually happens.3. "I was firefighting effectively with my business until I got to the point where I kind of hit a wall and I knew I needed to change something but I had absolutely no idea what to do. And I got help. Within six months, I had literally tripled my business income and was actually doing some really good work". That help got my business where it needed to be.Valuable Free Resource or Actionhttps://creativesuccess.coach/confident-creative/A video version of this podcast is available on YouTube : Linkedin : https://www.linkedin.com/video/event/urn:li:ugcPost:6919683652809314304/_________________________________________________________________________________________________Subscribe to our newsletter and get details of when we are doing these interviews live at https://TCA.fyi/newsletterFind out more about being a guest at : link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/beaguestSubscribe to the podcast at https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/podcastHelp us get this podcast in front of as many people as possible. Leave a nice five-star review at  apple podcasts : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/apple-podcasts and on YouTube : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Itsnotrocketscienceatyt!Here's how you can bring your business to THE next level:1. Download my free resource on everything you need to grow your business on a single page : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/1pageIt's a detailed breakdown of how you can grow your business to 7-figures in a smart and sustainable way2. Join The Complete Approach Facebook Group :  https://TCA.fyi/fb Connect with like-minded individuals who are all about growth and increasing revenue. It's a Facebook community where we make regular posts aimed at inspiring conversations in a supportive environment. It's completely free and purposely aimed at expanding and building networks.3. Join our Success to Soar Program and get TIME and FREEDOM. : https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/Success-to-SoarIf you're doing 10-50k a month right now: I'm working with a few business owners like you to change that, without working nights and weekends. If you'd like to get back that Time and still Scale, check the link above.4. Work with me privatelyIf you'd like to work directly with me and my team to take you from 5 figure to 6 and multi 6 figure months, whilst reducing reliance on you. Click on https://link.thecompleteapproach.co.uk/DiscoveryCall  tell me about your business and what you'd like to work on together, and I'll get you all the details.————————————————————————————————————————————-TranscriptNote, this was transcribed using a transcription software and may not reflect the exact words used in the podcast)SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, business, creative, work, coach, emma, question, problem, big, brilliant, niche, authentically, market, point, valuable, run, important, person, specialists, julia cameronSPEAKERSStuart Webb, Emma O'BrienStuart Webb  00:00Okay Hi, and welcome back to it's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee. I have my coffee here with me. It's been a good morning so far. Mr. I know you're you've just had a quick slow bustle that just before we started here was great and it took us about a dog. I'm sure we might get into some of that. But anyway, welcome to the to the podcast, Emma is a is a professional photographer and has been for the last 18 years, and is now also coaching other creative by helping them build sustainable, successful businesses around their unique passions, talents and skill sets. And I'm really excited about this. Because I think that's a really great subject, Emma, welcome to It's not rocket science. Five questions over coffee. Thank you very much for having me stir. It's lovely to Lovely to meet you and connect with you. Terrific. So so let's start with the obvious first question. So what is the sort of the describe those sort of talented, creative individuals that you're helping to coach at the moment? Yeah, so I think I'm obviously as a creative myself and haven't been doing it for so long. And there are a few kind of key things that come up for creative people, I think a lot of, you know, photographers and musicians and writers decide to start a business around their talents. And they're super good at the creative bit, but not so much at the business part of it. And it's almost something that gets in the way about, you know, now I have to work out how to market my work. So I think given I've been running a business for so long, that's where my my expertise comes in and been able to support creative people to run the business side of things. And also to get past the mindset blocks that come up with being a creative and then selling your creativity effectively for a living, which can be very challenging for people that brings up all sorts of impostor syndrome and all sorts of other things, which I coach people around as well. So I've kind of it's quite a multifacetedEmma O'Brien  02:31skill set that I've developed in helping other other creative people with their businesses, I think you've kind of gone into it, but you're starting to sort of explore those, those those problems about sort of somebody who has a creative view of of their business, about the things they try and do to market. And I know, it's often something that my own background being as a scientist, I deal with people who are probably very technically competent. And they they suffer with the ability to sort of not understand how the rest of the world can't understand the way they see their business. And to help them to explain that you need to put it into language, which other people necessarily sort of uncertain. Do you want to just give us a little bit more background on some of that sort of, you know, where are those those hurdles that they try to overcome and somehow don't quite manage in the way that you can help them to unlock? Yeah, so I think a big thing for for creative people, is the kind of taking up space almost and the belief in themselves that it's okay for me to share my work and sell my work. And it's okay for me to make a decent living from from what I do. That's one piece. And I think it's this slight lack of confidence that holds people back, I see a lot of, I'll have people come to me, and they'll say, I'm stuck. And I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do. First, you'll have people who tend to try and market blanket market to everybody, which is you'll be able to relate to with your techy people, you've got to find your audience, and and kind of market to those people. You can't please everybody. And I think it's helping people to understand how to do that. And for me, I think the best way to do that is to actually just show up and authentically Be your Self. And that's actually quite hard to do because it involves being quite vulnerable and involves kind of really creative work is often very personal stuff that people are making. And sometimes it's easier to make work that's like other people's because we can kind of hide behind that but I know from my own in my own creative career, my own photography career. It really started to take off when I started to make and share work that was very personal to me and I had a very had a very strong message that I was passionate about. That's what connected my work to people. But that takes quite a lot of courage to show up like this. Because obviously you leave yourself vulnerable to somebody saying, oh, that's awful. I hate it, which has never actually happened to me. And I'm so it's so it doesn't happen, you know, but it's a big fear that we all sit with. Yeah, no, I think there are two things immediately struck me as you were talking about one of which is, you know, I think the one thing that, you know, all business owners, whether they be creative, or technical or whatever, often say, and I find very frustrating in my ownStuart Webb  05:39mentoring career is the fact that you turn around so So who's, who are the person who is the person who is your ideal customer, and they'll say, anybody, and we all know that anybody is always the wrong answer, because it's far too broad. And that and the closer you can niche down, as you were saying, the closer you can get to the one person that you're trying to speak to, the closer you will be, and the easier you'll find it to market your business to them. And the other thing, which I find so frustrating, actually, about all of this is people who sort of insist on, you know, I'm just trying to get the word out to everybody. And if I shout louder across the noise, I'll eventually start picking up the customers and you think it's never it's never that problem. It's never the sort of revenue type problem there. It's nearly always sort of, you know, if you can actually sort of clearly identify the problem the person has that you're trying to reach. And then you could just just offer them that solution to the problem. They're gonna snatch it out of your hand, you're gonna stop selling, and they're going to be begging you for it. And people start to looking at you go, but that might only be sort of five people. I go, Okay, well, actually, those are the five people that you've said you want for your business, all we've got to do now is find them. And that's it. That's the problem, isn't it?Emma O'Brien  06:54Yes. Yeah. It's figuring out I think it's, and it'll be what you're doing as well with your your coaches is helping people figure out where the market is, and how do we speak to them? And how do we get in front of them. And I think sometimes people are afraid to niche because they're afraid that they're going to lose customers by specialising and I think, so I'd be interested to hear your experience with it. But I found that the more specialists you get, the more you are seen as an expert, and then you become sought after. And then you can actually you can charge more, because you are the go to person. And it takes time to do that. Sorry, I've got a dog rustling round in the corner. She's still now and I think it's but it often takes I think it takes a period of time to get to that point. And you've got to be prepared to, I think go with the flow of the business and allow it to unfold a little bit, there has got to be a stretch always got to be a strategy. But I think there has to be a degree of flexibility with it. You know, so I've been doing it for a long time. And it took me by accident, finding my niche, actually, as a photographer totally, totally by accident. And once I found that I kind of hit the ground running. And actually, if I look back on my my career, it also took me over a decade to start working with a coach and it would have been so much easier if I'd done it sooner.Stuart Webb  08:27I've come across that so often. And so many people turn around and say, Why didn't I do this at the beginning rather than at the end? And because you know, I've spent 15 years I know somebody said it to me recently, I've spent 15 years trying to build my business. If I could have done this 14 years ago, I'd have had 14 years, much easier life and you go Yeah, that's kind of like everybody, but we all, you know, somehow we all sort of somehow think that we can solve the problem on our own, don't we? And we just need to. And you know, I'm a I'm a business coach, and I've got a coach and I only realised I needed a business coach after I started coaching somebody and thought, I need somebody to talk to him. I need somebody to sort of critique some of my stuff. And hey, why have I not thought of this before? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's been invaluable to me. I mean, I kind of look I was doing okay for a decade, but it was it was it was meandering along, but there was no,Emma O'Brien  09:23I was firefighting effectively with it until I got to the point where I kind of hit a wall and I knew I needed to change something but I had absolutely no idea what to do. And getting that help. Within six months, I had literally tripled my business income half my client base and was actually doing some really good creative work. Because I think a lot of people get stuck in almost this starving artist myth of you know, it has to be difficult and I have to take on every job and this comes back to that point of we were talking about specialists I think sometimes you have to pick a lane and get in it and get on with it and stop trying to, you know, have clients everywhere, because, you know, it's kind of that that phrase, you know, jack of all trades master of none. And then there is another part to it, which nobody quotes but, but I just think it's, it's so true. And sometimes we need a little bit of help to, to be brave enough to kind of to really, to really go for it,Stuart Webb  10:30I love I love the way you putting it, I love the way you putting it. So has there been a particular book or concept or something which has enabled you to sort of crystallise all of this and really sort of move your business forward.Emma O'Brien  10:46I am a very big reader so I could share a whole library of books with you I'm forever reading stuff so I think for creative with creative people in mind the artists way by Julia Cameron is a very a very nice book resource to have because there's a lot in there she talks about nurturing your creativity which I think is super super important for if you're effectively earning a living from your creative vision another two here that I have got is your you're a badass at making money by Jensen Cerro she does have an acquired humour taste. But I think she's brilliant and the way she writes this is fantastic. And also an Ariana Huffington thrive. And because I think another thing might, from my own personal experience, I I was at the point of burnout and I started working with a coach, I'd let myself get to the point of working myself into an oblivion. And, and actually think it's so important to remember why we run our businesses. We don't, we shouldn't be living to work, we should be working to live. And I think it's, it's so often forgotten, especially when you run your own business, you can get so engrossed in it, that nothing else exists. And it's if you wear yourself out, you you reduce your ability to make a living, so we have to look after the earthly vehicle. And and we'd be mindful of our of our health and everything as well.Stuart Webb  12:21You've given us some great content, Emma, and I'm really hopeful that, that there's a valuable free action that we're coming to that you're gonna be able to, I think, I think it's here at at your website, and I just, I just say it, it will be in the show notes for everybody. And it'll be it'll be attached to it. But then you can describe to us what is the valuable for resource at creative success dot coach forward slash confident hyphen creative. So as creative success dot coach, forward slash confident, hyphen, creative, tell us what's a valuable free action or valuable free resource that we can we can pick up there, which will enable us all to sort of understand a little bit more how to push our businesses forward.Emma O'Brien  12:59Yeah, so it's a free mini a free five part mini course that I've created, literally addressing the big issues that I have a lot of my coaching clients come to me with. So it's tips on defining your ideal client pricing your work properly, how to show up authentically as you and why that's important for your business. There's a module in there on dealing with procrastination, because that's a big one for a lot of people. And just have a bit of care of my notes. Yeah. And it's just just about how to kind of push to use these tools to push your business forward. And, and the value of being you and how you know how saleable that is, when you're running your own business.Stuart Webb  13:42I love that. I love that. And I'm going to, I'm going to be very cheeky, I'm going to go on to that page any minute. Now. I've had a look around already this morning, as you can imagine, but I should go to that page, I should get something myself because I think it's a valuable, really valuable free, free resource, which is a hugely, hugely valuable for those people that are doing exactly what you're describing. Well, I've done I've done a little bit of asking questions at the moment, Emma and I, I guess there is one question right at the moment, you're thinking he's failed to ask me this, because that's the real key that I need him to ask in order to be able to sort of to explain my thinking and to get across what it is that I'm here about. So what's the question that you wish I had asked you? And then once you've asked the question, what do you want answer it for us?Emma O'Brien  14:29So this is this is very, very interesting one to ponder on. So I think the question is, what is the key to creative success? And there's a question and my answer would be you have to just start where you are. So often, people are like, I'm going to wait until I've got a bigger better camera or I'm going to wait until I've done another course or I'm going to do it next month. You will never be ready. Just start WhatStuart Webb  15:01do you know, it's a very, that is a brilliant, brilliant lesson. And I think it's one that we all need to take on board. A mentor of mine many years ago, said to me, a poor sales message out in the world is better than the brilliant one that you're still crafting Three years later, you will always, always find some reason that you're not ready to start. And I guarantee that you're never quite as good as just giving it a go and starting to learn from the experience of having given it a go. So I know it's a brilliant message ever. I love that absolutely love it. I thank you very much for reminding us of it again.Emma O'Brien  15:42It's important, it's it's just, it's it's kind of how I've managed to do stuff is is to just go I've had an idea I'm going to execute and I'm there's something I'm very good at. Not always so good at the finishing, I'm very good at the kind of executing, then halfway through. I'm like, Oh, is this a good idea.Stuart Webb  16:05So always, you know, it's very, very important to remember, you'd never ever fail, you just have an open job opportunity to learn, you know, if something doesn't work, well, okay. What did you what worked and what didn't and just do it again. You never fail, you just have another opportunity to learn.Emma O'Brien  16:25That's the I love that that piece of, of using failure as a signpost rather than a means to beat yourself around the head is to look at it and go, alright, this didn't work this time. It's working for other people. So what do I need to change here? And to just incrementally change something and keep going, because if somebody else is doing it and making it work, it's it's a proven idea. It's a proven product, it's a proven, whatever. You're just missing something missing. And it's just you've got to keep tweaking, and it's a journey. It's and I think that's how you've got to we've got to see life and business. It's a journey. And you know, you guys gottaStuart Webb  17:09absolutely love it. Listen, no, this has been a really fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us talking. I think I think some of the stuff you've got absolutely fantastic. And if you're watching this and thinking, Well, I'd love to sort of spend a bit more time listening to some of these interviews, we do get onto the mailing list, and then you get an email on a morning of the talks that we do so that you can join live. And what's really interesting people like like the creative success coach that we've got in front of us this morning era, and you can get onto that mailing list by going to TC a dot FYI, forward slash subscribe, that's TTA dot FYI, forward slash subscribe. Emma, thank you so much for spending a few minutes with us today at it's not rocket science. Really appreciate some of the stuff you brought to us. I look forward to seeing people downloading that, that that cheat sheet that you've got that mini course that will give us so much valuable insight into the way in which we can run our businesses and and we will really will love to see some more I've just seen here. Ivan has just sent us a comment. He's got another book that you might like to check out the win without pitching manifesto, which I should go check out that that's a really interesting one. Thank you either very much for that. Emma, thank you so much for being on with us this morning. Really looking forward to to seeing some of your stuff and see you again soon.Emma O'Brien  18:39Thank you very much for having me. It's been great to do it. Get full access to It's Not Rocket Science! at thecompleteapproach.substack.com/subscribe

Dazayah Walker is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music, the label behind today's most trendsetting artists like Lil Baby and Migos, Dazayah. She maintains QC's investment portfolio, particularly within the startup space, which spans well beyond just music and entertainment. Being a 23-year-old venture capitalist is difficult as is. Now tack on being female and black? “It's been a journey”, as Dazayah Walker shares with us in this episode of the Trapital podcast.Dazayah's path to becoming a Venture Capitalist is as unorthodox as you'll find in the venture capital world, but she's stuck to the same principles that got her that opportunity to begin with — seeking out mentors, surrounding herself with a supportive community, and taking the learning process day-by-day. Before overseeing QC's investments, Dazayah worked on the music side for the label. She began as an intern for QC, and worked her way through the ranks at the same time QC was taking the music industry by storm. Not only is Dazayah breaking down doors, but she's also trying to leave them open for future aspiring VC's with similar unconventional backgrounds. As Dazayah continues to learn the ins and outs of venture capital, she plans on creating initiatives to educate others about the world she operates in. To hear Dazayah's future ambitions, plus everything else we covered in the show, reference the video chapters below: [0:00] Dazayah's goals with her role[2:13] Dazayah's Transition Into Venture Capital[5:29] What Is QC's Investment Thesis? [6:35] The Pros And Cons Of Involving QC Artists Into Investments[9:16] What Does Dazayah Look For In A Company Before Investing? [10:49] QC Investing Beyond Just Music and Entertainment [10:45] Dazayah's particular interest in Fintech[12:56] QC's and Dazayah's Involvement With Techstars[14:48] The Challenge Dazayah Faced Breaking Into The VC World[16:04] What Programs Have Helped Dazayah Adjust To The VC World? [17:40] What Was Behind QC's Investment Into Riff? [18:50] QC's Investment Portfolio Explained [20:00] “You Can Do This Too And This Is How”[23:30] Music-Wise, What Is Dazayah Most Excited About QC In Near Future?Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuest: Dazayah Walker, @dazayah   Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands-----------Dazayah Walker 00:00Finding success here and having a strong track record and proven portfolio and then be able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too, and this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 00:23Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's episode is with Dazayah Walker, Head of Investments and the Operations Manager at Quality Control Music. This is an exciting role to have at a time like this. QC has been on a run the past few years and has really shaped what hip hop is sounded like, from artists like Migos, to City Girls, to Lil Baby, and then on the other side of this hip hop investing activity is growing faster than ever, and we're seeing more and more artists getting ICAP tables, getting involved with deals. So it's a really exciting time to have a role like this. I talked with Dazayah about what it's been like from her perspective, and representing and getting roles not just for QC as a firm, but for the artists that they represent, and how she has navigated the record label growing as fast as it has the past few years to venture capital landscape and how she's been able to navigate that and a whole lot more. Had a great conversation with her. Hope you enjoy it. Here's my chat with Dazayah Walker. All right, we got Dazayah Walker here today, who is the Head of Investments at Quality Control Music. Dazayah, welcome to the pod. Dazayah Walker 01:42Hello, I'm so happy to be here. Super excited. Let's do this. Dan Runcie 01:46Yeah, so one of the things that stuck out to me about you and your career, you had started as an intern at QC, and you've risen up the ranks there as the label as not just a record label, but as an entertainment company. And now with a corporate venture arm or brollies just continue to grow and expand. Dazayah Walker 02:05Yes. Dan Runcie 02:06Walk me through the steps. What was it like from when you started to where it is now, just with how fast things have been growing there? Dazayah Walker 02:13Yeah, it's been a great journey and experience for me, with this being my first job. There's been a lot of learning curves with that in itself. But it was definitely a privilege and a great opportunity to be able to see the growth of QC, because we've expanded in so many different ways since I started as an intern, and being able to be a part of that, witness that, learn from that I couldn't be in a better position. Dan Runcie 02:36And is there anything specific with the role that you have now that had drawn you to it or something specifically because I know you had started a bit more focused on operations? And then now we're obviously seeing much more on the investment side. But was there something about that opportunity that pulled you in? Dazayah Walker 02:52Yes, so getting to this side was definitely a path of, I would say divine ordering because me entering the opportunity at QC. Starting as an intern, I thought I just wanted to do music, work my way up to being a music industry executive. But as I became more in the groove, and learning more of the things that I like, things that I don't like, I really had to find my place. And when I discovered what venture capital was, because when I was at Spelman, I was an economics major. So I kind of have like, I've always been surrounded by that when I was in school, just the finance, track and everything like that. But me venturing into music was me following my passion or what I thought was my passion at that time. So when I discovered what venture capital was, it was actually kind of crazy to me that I hadn't learned about it when I was in school, considering the impact that Morehouse, our brother institution has, as far as their representation of black men in venture capital. It was just crazy to me that I was at an institution right across the street and had no idea that this industry even existed. So when I stumbled across VC and began learning about it, I just saw the opportunity for artists, athletes and entertainers to be involved and was curious as to why more people that look like us aren't represented in those spaces. So that's when you know, my research and dedication to being in this position really started. And then from there, you know, bringing that idea and really helped become what we're building today with quality Ventures has been amazing. Dan Runcie 04:26So talk to me about that piece about bringing this idea together. So was it you seeing the opportunity and seeing how much of a disconnect there was and then going into the team at QC to be like, hey, there's something big here and we have talent here that could be just as influential. Dazayah Walker 04:42Yes. So it was a moment where I had to really think about what legacy do I want to have, what value do I want to add, and being in this position, you know, I built relationships with, you know, our entire team. So I was somebody that, you know, they trusted and when I, you know, have something to say they were listening, and you know, they embraced any idea or anything that I had. So by, you know, telling them and showing them, you know, the opportunity that exists for us in this space, it was well-received. And now here we are deploying capital, making investments. And my goal is really for us to have that same little level of influence and impact that we have in music in the venture capital space, as well. So having that same strong presence and footprint in that industry, too.Dan Runcie 05:29So what does that thesis look like? What does that investment goal look like for QC specifically, because I'm sure it's more than just the financial aspect? There's the pitch and how it can help intersect and how the music itself and everything you're doing on the media and entertainment side can help with the venture opportunity too?Dazayah Walker 05:48Absolutely, so our biggest thing is adding value, adding strategic value. So for us being in a unique position of being that entity that defines culture and creates culture, I feel like we're uniquely positioned to leverage our artists and our athletes to really help grow these companies that we see as potential winners.Dan Runcie 06:11And are there ever any specific moments where folks are reaching out? And there's, of course, the interest in having QC on the cap table, but then people reaching out about specific artists, whether it's like, oh, well, we want to have City Girls on here, specifically, or we want to be able to have a Lil Baby on here? How has it been with that piece of advice, I'm sure that could be an interesting discussion, especially from your landscape with all of that. Dazayah Walker 06:35So that happens a lot as well. And it all boils down to seeing if the artist even aligns with what you're building. Because when you're working with early stage, or pre-seed stage companies, that may be the very first version of whatever they're building, there's so many more iterations yet to happen. And as the entity continues to grow, and transform, the artists that they thought may be ideal for what they're building as a representation may not be as they continue to, you know, redefine what it is that they're building. So yes, you know, we get opportunities all the time for our artists, which was another reason why, like the opportunity to bridge the gap and intersect music and technology was so evident and clear to me, you know, to pursue and to do, because those opportunities and those deals are always flowing. But really being in a position being someone that knows how to evaluate those opportunities, and educate, you know, the artist, or the athlete or whoever may be to let them know, like, this is why this is a good, you know, opportunity or something to look at and this is why it isn't.Dan Runcie 07:41I also imagine that there's likely people that may be reaching out because they may want just the exposure that may come right, they may be like, “Oh, well, if y'all invest can Lil Baby, give us a shout out for the product on some song. And I could see there being you know, some pushback on that, because obviously, you all would see the opportunity as being greater than that.” But how was that piece of it been? Because I know, I've heard similar from folks in the entertainment space when they're looking to have not just celebrities, but artists specifically on the cap table.Dazayah Walker 08:13Well, personally, I don't think a founder having that mindset is necessarily wrong because in the VC ecosystem now, capital isn't an issue. So getting the money having people to, you know, write a check for you isn't the hard part. It's actually once you get that money, how can you use that, you know, relationship that you now have to help build your company or grow whatever it is that you're building. So I feel like a founder having that perspective isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you want to have partners that can help you grow your company and add value in different ways. So if there is an opportunity for an artist, if it's something that they really love, you know, to be an ambassador for it, and to push it.Dan Runcie 08:58So when you're evaluating startups, and when you're evaluating artists, or not artists, founders, specifically, what are you looking for, like, what is your criteria set? And what are those things whether it's tangible or intangible that you're looking for that clears that over the hurdle to be like, Yes, this is what we want to invest in?Dazayah Walker 09:16So I would break it down into three things. The first thing I would say, what is the problem that you're trying to solve? Is this a problem that is unique to you and from like, or where you're from? Or is this a problem that is affecting a wide market of people? So first, understanding the problem, and if the solution that they're attempting to build is a solution for the greater good? The second thing is really understanding their team, like, who do you have helping you build this? What people do need a position to help you build it? And like how much traction Have you gotten so far. And the first, and I think the most important thing is the founder, when you're working with companies that are likely pre-revenue, maybe they have a very, very early version of their product, you're placing a bet on the founder. So knowing the type of person to look for, or the type of characteristics to look for in a founder, I think are very important. Somebody that is determined, somebody that is all in like willing to make the investment themselves because how do you expect me or someone to make an investment when you haven't even, you know, fully invested yourself in this in this idea? So I will say those are the top three things that I look at when I meet with founders and new companies.Dan Runcie 10:33That makes sense. And then in terms of the industries themselves, is there any type of sector that you're particularly looking for, or any other type of industry that you feel is most aligned with what QC or Quality Ventures is after?Dazayah Walker 10:49Yeah, so as a company, Quality Ventures isn't looking in specific industries and verticals. I know a lot of people think since you know, we have Quality Control Music, we're looking strictly at music-based companies and startups. And that's not necessarily true. Like I said, our whole thesis is really about us being in a position to add value. But for me, specifically, I really like looking at fintech companies, I think that Fintech is the next market to really boom so paying attention to the trends, paying attention to what people are saying, paying attention to what problems are they need to be solved. So for me personally, the industry of interest to me is fintech.Dan Runcie 11:28And what is it about fintech specifically that sticks out to you or interest you?Dazayah Walker 11:32I like it because I think it's time for a change as far as how money is viewed, how money is moved. Like I know, you probably have seen how crypto, everybody's talking about crypto, and preparation for the metaverse, like, all of those things are happening strategically. And by being aware of what's happening in fintech, you know how the money is moving what the future of money and finances look like. So that you can kind of put yourself in position to not only be educated about it but know how to make your next move when it comes to what the future looks like.Dan Runcie 12:05Right? That makes sense. And I think especially when you look more broadly at the definition of FinTech, and you look at companies like Coinbase, and you look at some of the partnerships that they've had with organizations like the NBA, or even the United Masters, there's clearly an alignment where even if it isn't in the quote-unquote, entertainment landscape, this touches so much. So that's why I think you see so many artists and companies in this space that want to tap into all these areas, even if they're not necessarily what you may think is in that industry. Dazayah Walker 12:38Exactly. Dan Runcie 12:39And with that, I mean, for you, I know that another partnership that QC has, at least on the investment side, from what I've seen is in Techstars Music, and I saw that you're a mentor there and that QC more broadly as a partner. So how has that experience been?Dazayah Walker 12:56It's been amazing. Just the Techstars music team in general have been a great like resource for us. So when the program, when we joined the program last year, we kind of were thrown in when things were already in motion, like they were already preparing for demo day, the companies in the cohort were already selected. But now I was able to be a part of the process of you know, picking the companies for the new cohort, being a part of like all the member meetings and the mentor meetings. So with me still being in a very early part of my career, I'm always looking for opportunities to learn and experience new things. And Techstars has been an amazing teacher for me. Just seeing things from that perspective, working with an accelerator, like working with founders and seeing them in that perspective has definitely helped me I feel like become a better venture capitalist, just seeing things from different angles and different perspectives. Because honestly, once I made the decision to transition into venture capital, I was a little discouraged because I am entering it through a very unconventional background. So any opportunity that I have to learn and observe and ask questions, it's been amazing, because it's been it's been a rough journey for me to be able to confidently say, this is what I'm doing. I know that I'm uniquely qualified to do that thing, and, you know, moving like that. So it's been a journey, Dan, I tell you,Dan Runcie 14:22I could imagine I mean, there are not many people that look like you that are doing this type of work. And when you compound that with what people already may assume is standard for what they expect for people working at, the type of company you work at that just compounds it further. I mean, what are some of the things that you had done early on to try to, you know, either break through that or try to navigate that the best, and I could only imagine how tough that could be at times.Dazayah Walker 14:50Yeah, I would definitely say reaching out to people asking questions, really being a sponge, absorbing as much information and knowledge as I can. Because making this pivot into an entire new industry is scary, because like, I built my network in my name and music. And now, I feel like making a career shift almost as still such an early point in my career was very, very scary. But some of those same like tactics and things that I did to be successful or reach the level of success that I had in music, I applied those same principles to me, you know, trying to achieve a level of success in venture capital. So really finding mentors and finding a community to learn from to be supported by and to be supportive of, and just taking things day by day. And knowing that every day is an opportunity to learn something new, and, you know, not taking opportunity for granted because I know I'm in a very unique and special position. And I'm grateful for the position that I'm in. So really showing people why I, you know, I'm deserving of the role that I've been placed in.Dan Runcie 16:04Definitely. And I also think, too, whether it's programs like HBCU, VC, and obviously, you representing that being an alum from HBCU them recognizing that this is a pipeline that not only is a challenge, but how can they help bridge that gap? And, you know, are there any specific organizations, whether it's like that or others that have been helpful for you as you've gone along this path?Dazayah Walker 16:26Yeah, so definitely HBCU BC, considering I was a fellow, that was an amazing program with amazing teachers, and I've really been able to, like tap into that community, which has been amazing. Another community that I'm really grateful for is Black VC and the Black Venture Capital Consortium, both of those organizations have been super supportive and welcoming of me. And it's things like that, that are very important for not even just me being a young black woman, but you know, being a person of color trying to enter another space that is male-dominated, white-male-dominated. So just having that comfort of knowing that there are people that support you and want to uplift you and see you do amazing things.Dan Runcie 17:11Yeah, definitely. I could see that for sure. I could see that. Well. Let's circle back quick. I do want to talk about some of the public investments that you've made. I know that Riff was one of them, that you all were in, was that one of them? Riff, yes. Okay. So what was the process like for that investment? What was it that attracted you about that company?Dazayah Walker 17:31Well, Riff isn't one that I necessarily, like found from the beginning and worked all the way to the point where we cut the check. But Riff has been an amazing company in our portfolio, I'm super excited for what they're building, just seeing them being disruptive and combining elements that we as consumers love, I'm really excited for the journey of Riff and being able to be a great partner to them, and just seeing them grow. And you know, being along that journey in that ride with them, but they're definitely building something amazing. And I'm excited for, you know, the masses to really, you know, tap into it, learn about it, and really get engaged with it.Dan Runcie 18:10Yeah, I can see that. Are there any that are public that you've worked on that you can talk more about?Dazayah Walker 18:17Yeah, so one of my favorite companies in our portfolio, which is actually one of the companies from the previous class of Techstars. It's called Faith. And this is one that I really, really loved. Because not only did our relate to like the platform, just to give you a little bit of background Faith is an app for fans. It allows fans to come together and really live within their fandom. And with me being a past fangirl, I immediately fell in love with what she was building. And the founder, she's a black woman, she's a solopreneur, which is a challenge in itself. So just seeing what she's built so far, the amount of traction that she's received, and just how far she has come has been super inspirational for me, you know, being involved, even in like the due diligence and saying, I think this is a great company, I think this is one that we really should pay attention to, to the point of us actually deploying capital to that company. That was super cool, and really amazing. And that's another company in our portfolio that I'm super excited about. And I feel like not only will my generation, like, enjoy the app, but the generation underneath me will as well, so…Dan Runcie 19:23Nice. That makes sense. Yeah. And I feel with apps like that in platforms. I mean, not only do you have the direct connection, but I'm sure you being able to have the connection to it. I mean, these are the type of things obviously it's still early stage, you know, but gets marked up you continue to have that influence over it and you never know where that could take you. I feel like that's kind of the exciting thing, especially for the people I talk to you that are that start their careers in VC, as opposed to the other way around the, you know, the folks that may have done something on the product side and then go into vc.Dazayah Walker 19:56Yeah, but my goal overall, really is to, you know, find my groove in this and really, you know, find success for myself and I define success within this space is being able to invest in companies, have exits, and you know, have a strong portfolio, so that I can get to the point where I'm able to educate and inform, because I feel like, part of the reason why a lot of artists, athletes, and entertainers, which is, you know, the people that I'm used to working with and being around, which is why I really strongly urge them to get into this space, and why I feel like I'm in the position, and the person to really do that work, is because they don't know, like, there's that kind of barrier. Like they may see things on social media of other artists that have invested in Gods, you know, there's money back, but really having someone there to educate them and be that bridge and that conduit from, you know, them being in the position and the level of influence, and you know, the reach that they have, and showing them and being that person to bring deals to them to help them leverage that so that not only are they able to, you know, be represented in this space, but build generational wealth for them and their families. Like that's the bigger picture. And that's the goal for me. And that's the work that I really want to do and look forward to doing. So finding success here and having a strong, like track record and proven portfolio, and then being able to use that as a way to show people you can do this too. And this is how, let me show you how, let me be that person to help you understand and be a part of it.Dan Runcie 21:32Yeah, that's powerful. Because I feel like especially for you or you're in your position now. There's a lot of people that I'm sure look at you being like, oh, Dazayah, how can we get in that? Like, how do you were able to, you know, connect those dots. And then you obviously, you know, I'm sure you feel like you're deep into yourself, you're learning as you're continuing to grow. But you know that in the near future, you will be able to have enough. And that can look like a number of things, whether that's a course or some other type of platform to just share and disseminate this information. Because not only is it important for people to hear it, it's important for people to hear it from people who you know, look like you they if you want to inspire, you know, especially if there's black women across the country across the world, I want to hear it, the more folks that could share their experience, the better that is.Dazayah Walker 22:16Absolutely, I agree 100%. Like, the more you know, the better position that you can put yourself in. And I just think it's a lack of knowledge, people just not knowing, like, what these things mean, how to get in on deals, how much to invest, like, there's so many layers to it. And I feel like if people were a bit more comfortable, they'd be more open and investing their money in other ways than the traditional stocks and bonds or, you know, how people see fit to save their money or invest their money, I should say. Dan Runcie 22:47Yeah, especially now I feel like we're seeing things like whether it's the accredited investor rule or other things just continuing to be challenged, we're gonna see more and more people investing the definition of an investor and who can get involved with things. As those barriers continue to lower, the options increase. And when that happens, it just provides more space for education. So yeah, you're definitely on the right track with all that stuff has ever said. 100%Dazayah Walker 23:13Thank you. That really means a lot. Thank you.Dan Runcie 23:16Yeah, well, um, I know that, you know, we've covered a lot in this. But before we let you go, I do want to get a quick take from you on what are you most excited for? What's coming through the QC portfolio for the rest of 2022? And I guess portfolio, that'd be more on the artists side. Specifically, what are you excited for on that front. Dazayah Walker 23:36I'm just excited for the continued growth of Quality Control as an empire. It hasn't even been 10 years that QC has been in existence. And for us to have made so much leeway, create so much history have so much impact within that 10-year window. I'm excited to see what the next five years look like for us. But even just in the next year, in the next 12 months, I'm excited to see the continued growth and effort of our team, like our team has grown dramatically. So if we were able to do and accomplish so much with such a small team, I'm excited to see what the next 12 months look like for our expansion and our growth and just everything to come and everything that we're building, publicly and silently. I'm just grateful for the position that I'm in and be able to be a part of that and even say those things. So the next year it's going to look like a lot of wins continued success and growth and expansion for all of us.Dan Runcie 24:38That's exciting. I feel like the past decade for QC has been incredible. I think it's so tough for indie labels to be able to have that type of run in the fact that they have says a lot. So I'm excited. I mean, as a fan of all of this, I'm excited to see what happened. But yeah, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to plug or let the Trapital audience know about?Dazayah Walker 25:00I should say this is great, Dan, I absolutely love what you're doing what you're building, you're spreading a message that needs to be heard by so many. And you're not only inspiring me, but you're inspiring people that you may not even know that you're touching. So keep doing the work that you're doing. This was awesome. Thank you so much.Dan Runcie 25:19Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. We'll do. Thanks, Dazayah.Dazayah Walker 25:23All right. Thank you, Dan.Dan Runcie 25:28 If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat, post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead, rate the podcast. Give it a high rating and leave a review, tell people why you like the podcast that helps more people discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

I'm so excited about this interview I did I'm pre-selling it! I got to start putting in action some of my interview ideas and it worked really well.  The power of batch recording episodes.  A light is shined on the power of organized athletics and how it helps with entrepreneurial success later in life.Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: Mischa Zvegintzov  00:01What happened today? What happened today is one, I interviewed Kate Nolan, who is an incredible female entrepreneur. And she helps female entrepreneurs and I got to interview her for the Table Rush, master class, and I got to practice I got to start putting in action, some of my ideas, and it worked really well. And the net result was she cannot wait to get her hands on on our interview, so she can use it as a as a tool to help her to help her grow. So I'm going to talk about that. Time permitting, I'm also going to talk about a another person that I'm doing. Her name's Lisa, Lisa, who has all the pieces, all the pieces scattered about a business, and she's finally ready to put all those pieces together and get it online and and start to monetize. And so I'm going to talk about that. those two things over the next at least one episode, perhaps two or three, we will see how it goes all right. Kate Nolan first. So my idea is that I am helping entrepreneurs create sales videos that generate leads and convert to sales convert these leads to their dream customers through my winfomercial process to my funky cool new age information tool the infomercial and effectively it's what what is that? Well it's an interview style where where I'm systematically going through all the boxes that we need to check. I'm being a little ambiguous on purpose until learn how to talk about it. but to create a compelling interview that's packed with with awesome information also tells the person's story and then has a awesome can't win call to action.  and and so I have been well let's see what else can I say in that regard thank you for for hanging in there with me. It's actually been a good week or 10 days since I've recorded an episode which speaks to the power of batch recording episodes. Anybody who is has a podcast or a you know a blog or YouTube channel you can batch record episodes so when you get a solid idea if you time it right you can you can record multiple that one idea into multiple episodes that fit your time bracket that fits your listeners time bracket, your perfect customers listening time bracket or reading tighten bracket or what have you. And it's been very powerful for me. And it also relieves some some pressure on the content producer in this case me. Because I trust that if I am not recording content for a week, that when a solid idea comes to fruition or materializes, I can turn that into you know, some good quality episodes. Anyway, thank you for listening to the diversion.Mischa Zvegintzov  05:00So Kate is an amazing, amazing, super smart, talented...Mischa Zvegintzov  05:08Sorry, dads playing football with their kids in the park. I just as a recording, sort of not sort of crossed paths with a footballer and a little girl, your five year old is a very funny moment. Perhaps this funny moment, we'll get edited out.Mischa Zvegintzov  05:29So back to Kate. Yeah, So Kate, I can't wait till this episode is up for the interview with Kate. Because it is awesome. And you get to see your passion, we get to tell her story of how coming out of, you know, a crisis in her early 30s. She got to apply her her entrepreneurial skills, she was in essence forced to put them to work, she started a company called Graced By Grit.  Which was effectively comfortable workout clothes. And around, you know, just a great story, she was able to build that, take on a partner build it with a partner.  they were able to exit that, that that business. stay on a foundation that the business created a scholarship for young women to continue with athletics.  because she saw the power of athletics and had some stats on the power of athletics, and how important it is. Like there's a direct correlation between young women who embrace athletics, and you know, the organized athletics and how it helps them have entrepreneurial success later in life. So they started a foundation. So she's on this foundation, super cool.Mischa Zvegintzov  07:08And then she was able to take everything she learned from that business from creating that business, and help other female entrepreneurs do the same things with their products and ideas. And so now she has turned that into a course, course curriculum. And so it's super cool, there's a ton of passion behind it, there's a ton of, of just, it's great, she's got her niche dialed in. But she gets to tell that story. And as I'm walking right now and recording this, unfortunately, I don't have what that website is, or I'd tell it to you look in the show notes. It's in the show notes. But a great great interview and and she's just launching her this curriculum, this membership site. and I was able to create with her to just do this awesome interview that captured her story, the power of her tribe of how she can help and and just so gratifying and she's excited to have the content I'm excited to have been a part of the content creation and and yeah.  So I think I'm going to end that there and I'll talk about Lisa on the next episode. So we've got another success story, burgeoning success story. so yeah, if you're have ideas and you're trying to create some businesses get out there take risks go for it. I would encourage you it's been quite a journey for me but to have some things sort of come into you know, serendipitous events come together from for what are some baby step successes from your awesome alright, look for Lisa story next episode. Love to all

Pre-order Michele's book on talking to customers! https://deployempathy.com/order Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Fathom Analytics. Fathom is trusted by thousands of businesses to power their privacy-first website analytics like GitHub, FastMail, Buffer, Tailwind, and so many amazing small businesses, too. For the longest time, website analytics offer was seriously bad.  It was hard to understand, time consuming to use, and worse, and exploited visitor data for big tech to profit. Fathom is website analytics without compromise, easy to use, respectful of digital privacy, and fully compliant with GDPR. Plus, Fathom's script loads faster than Google Analytics, meaning it's better for SEO. With Fathom, you can see all of your visitors, not just half, because they've pioneered the method to bypass ad blockers without invading privacy. Fathom also doesn't chase venture capital or need investors. Like my company, Geocodio, they are customer-funded, and customers are the only folks they answer to. Try a free seven day trial or check out Fathom at UseFathom.com/ssp.  Michele HansenSo, the other day, I totaled up how much I have made from my book so far, and all the expenses.  Colleen Schnettler  01:19Okay.  Michele Hansen  01:20So, as of that point, $1363 in presales, which is just, like, the number of copies times 29. That's not my actual payouts. It's just, like, the gross revenue.  Colleen Schnettler  01:34Okay.  Michele Hansen  01:34And then, so the expenses. So, first one, for the formatting, I have to use the software called Vellum, which is $250. I had to buy ISBNs, like, the little, like, numbers on the back of the book that identify it.  Colleen Schnettler  01:49Yeah. Michele Hansen  01:50So, and I had to, you can either buy one, or like 10, and since I'm going to do an audio book, you need an ISBN for that, and like, a hardcover needs zone ISBN. And so anyway, that was $295. A barcode is $25. Proofreading $800, which is a lot of money, but I feel like that's the price of like, not being embarrassed that it's full of typos and you know, I feel like if I want to, like, have a book that, like, a manager could buy for their team, or like, people would recommend to their clients, like, it has to be professional.  And so having, like, professional proofreading is the cost of that. Colleen Schnettler  02:24Yeah.  I didn't know that was something. I didn't know that was a thing. Michele Hansen  02:30Yeah. Yeah, I spent, I think last week I mentioned how I was fighting with Grammarly a lot, and,  Colleen Schnettler  02:35Yeah.  Michele Hansen  02:36I just, I was like, I have spent like, two days fighting with Grammarly, just trying to get it to work, and like, and I was like, this is just, my time is more expensive than this. Colleen Schnettler  02:47Yeah. Michele Hansen  02:47So, I'm just gonna hire a proofreader.  Colleen Schnettler  02:50Good choice. Michele Hansen  02:50And then, of course, you know, don't include hundreds of hours of my time over the last couple of months. But, so, the total for expenses so far is $1370. Colleen Schnettler  03:01That's wonderful. Michele Hansen  03:02So, when you deduct $1363 minus $1370.  Colleen Schnettler  03:11Oh. Michele Hansen  03:12You get negative seven. Colleen Schnettler  03:16Yeah, I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. Got it. So you're in the hole seven bucks and hundreds of hours of your time. Michele Hansen  03:25Yes. Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  03:26Alright. Well, good thing it;s a labor of love. Michele Hansen  03:28So, I looked at that number, though, and I just had this moment where I was like, holy, forking shirtballs, like, I need to market this thing.  Colleen Schnettler  03:39Yeah.  Michele Hansen  03:40Umm, and actually, so like, I sold another two since then. So now, I am actually at positive $51.  Colleen Schnettler  03:51Whoo.  Michele Hansen  03:52Yeah, whoo. Umm, and of course, you know, we're only like, only in presale, and like, a ton of people have today said they want the hardcover or they want the audio book. So they haven't, they haven't purchased it yet, or they just simply want the finished version. Umm, But yeah, that was kind of a wake up call for me that, like, I've been, you know, we talked about with Sean like, I, like marketing a info product feels very different for me than marketing a SaaS.  Colleen Schnettler  04:19Yes. Michele Hansen  04:19And also requires a lot more self-promotion, which I'm not comfortable with. Like, it makes me like, deeply uncomfortable to like, reach out to people and be like, hey, like, would you consider, like, you know, reviewing my book like, or, you know, can I be on your podcast and, like, talk, like, it makes me super uncomfortable. Umm so, so but I got to do it because like, negative $7, man, for like, four months worth of work is, you know, basically half of my time the last four months, certainly, last two months, has been on this book. And so I feel like I owe it to myself just for that, like, time to like, sell the gosh darn thing. Colleen Schnettler  05:07Definitely. Michele Hansen  05:09Yeah. So I like spent, you know, this week I was kind of working on, you know, like, I went through all of the newsletter issues and I, like, put in a link at the top to, like, buy the book because I've noticed that people are sharing the scripts around. Like, I can see the analytics that they're getting shared in people's Slack channels, or, you know, Trello, or Asana, which is a good sign that those maybe have some staying power. So, and just kind of thinking through a little bit more, a little bit more of the marketing and trying to arrange, you know, yeah, podcasts and stuff, but I gotta, I gotta market this thing. Colleen Schnettler  05:52Yeah, didn't Alex, who promoted his book on our podcast, didn't he do, like, 20 or 30 podcasts? Michele Hansen  06:00Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  06:01And how many have you done? Michele Hansen  06:04Um, I, well,  Colleen Schnettler  06:07I already know the answer. Michele Hansen  06:09Well, I mean this one. I mean, I was on a couple recently where I talked about the newsletter. Like, I was on, I, yeah. Like, I was on the Get the Audience podcast, and I was on the Learn Neto podcast as well. But like, the book wasn't out yet. So those weren't really, Colleen Schnettler  06:37Right, you didn't have anything to sell at that time.  Michele Hansen  06:39Yeah, it was just the newsletter. Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  06:40A good goal for you would be to try to book 15, you know, and get yourself as a guest on 15 to 20 podcasts to promote your book, because you can sell it now. Right? Even though it's not completely done. Michele Hansen  06:52Yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess. Yeah. I'm like scheduling one for the middle of July, like, so I'm currently, my goal is to publish it on July 2, but I like, I really hope that happens. But there may be like, you know, some people may need more time to, like, write reviews, and, like, making a cover and everything. So, it should be out by early July. Colleen Schnettler  07:20You're, when you say, I don't know. You mean the book?  Michele Hansen  07:22Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  07:22I am little confused about what you're saying. Michele Hansen  07:23 Yeah. So like, upload it to Amazon, and people can buy a physical copy. Colleen Schnettler  07:28Yes. Michele Hansen  07:29So I don't think I'm quite there yet. Like, exactly like, and I think there's some things that I'm just saying aren't going to happen for, like, this first version, like, a friend of mine, who is a UX research expert was reading it, and there's a couple places she's like, this would be a really great table. This would be great as a graphic. And I'm like, yes, it would be but I have zero faculty for visual communication, and that is not going to happen right now. Like, that can like happen when my brain has the space to like, think that through, but it is, it is not happening right now. But yeah, I guess I guess I should say, I guess that, I don't even know where to start. Colleen Schnettler  08:13No no, Let's go like straight Nike style here.  Michele Hansen  08:15Nike style? Colleen Schnettler  08:16What is it, just do it? Just do it. That's my challenge for you. I'm not going to talk to you for a couple weeks because I'm about to embark on my epic road trip. So, my challenge for you is to reach out to, find and reach out to 25 podcast hosts that you think, Michele Hansen  08:34Good Lord. Colleen Schnettler  08:34And they're not all going to say yes, which is like, hey, man. I know. Michele Hansen  08:37I'm sitting here being like, Colleen, and I really struggle with self promotion. And even, you know, one person was hard for me and you're like, go do it 25 more times.  Colleen Schnettler  08:4525 times. I love that idea. Michele Hansen  08:46Coach Colleen says 25 more reps. So not fair. Colleen Schnettler  08:50Yes. So, that's what my challenge for you is, is to reach out, Michele Hansen  08:54 How about five?  Colleen Schnettler  08:57Really? I'm not impressed with your five. Michele Hansen  09:00I feel like everybody, I feel like everybody like, needs this person standing on their shoulder that's like, I will write one landing page this month. And you're just there. They're like, really?  Colleen Schnettler  09:11Really? That's the best you can do? Michele Hansen  09:13That's, like, that's it, you know? Wait, like, why are you here?  Colleen Schnettler  09:18You should try and, I don't know, just ask, ask one of our prominent friends who is a book author, Alex comes to mind again, how many podcasts he went on?  Michele Hansen  09:27Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  09:28And try to hit that number. I mean, it's game time girl. Like, you wrote the book. You did the hard work,nd now it's a whole new set of hard work that you have to do because you're right, like, this is a brilliant book. You don't want it to languish because, no one's ever heard of it. Michele Hansen  09:43I didn't say it was brilliant. You said it was brilliant. Colleen Schnettler  09:46Well, here you go. It's brilliant. it's needed. It's gonna be amazing. So, I think you need to like, get in gear. Michele Hansen  09:54Yeah, I, yeah. Okay. I guess, I have to go, well, if you are listening and you want to promote me, then help me. Colleen Schnettler  10:06Maybe what we can do is we can, I have an idea. Okay, plan. So, just put a tweet out and ask everyone for their favorite business podcast. I bet you'll get a list of at least 30. And then you can just, Michele Hansen  10:17Yeah, I guess, yeah, like, but like it has to be for SaaS, for example, because like, Planet Money isn't gonna have me on. Colleen Schnettler  10:25Right, right. I meant yeah, SaaS podcast. I mean, there's enough of them that do podcasts similar to ours.  Michele Hansen  10:31Make the internet do my research for me.  Colleen Schnettler  10:34Yes, there we go. Harness the power of the internet. Michele Hansen  10:41So if you see a tweet from the Software Social Account soon about your favorite business SaaS podcast, now you know why.  Colleen Schnettler  10:50The secret's out. Michele Hansen  10:52Yeah, the secret is out. Okay. Well, I will, I will try to book myself on some, some podcasts. I guess, I guess there's other ways I could promote it, too. Like, I could go on, like, Tiktok or, Colleen Schnettler  11:12No.  Michele Hansen  11:14No, we will not do that. For those listening at home, I think Colleen just spit out her coffee. Yeah. Okay. Well, I have some marketing to do. Colleen Schnettler  11:34Yes. Michele Hansen  11:36Yeah. I think I have like, I've literally sent I think one email, maybe two. No, yeah, one email that mentioned that the presale was live, which basically goes against every best practice, like, some like, someone sent me some advice the other day, and they're like, send at least three emails a day on your like, launch days. I was like, okay, I've sent like, one in the last two weeks, and I sent out my newsletter the other day, and I actually forgot to include a link to the presale. So, I need to, like, Colleen Schnettler  12:06You know what, suggestion.  Michele Hansen  12:07Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  12:07This is really cool. So do you know the Wes Bos is?  He's, like, a famous JavaScript instructor. I bought like, all of his courses. But what he does is, he does, when he has a new product to launch, he does send a lot of emails, but he actually segments his emails. And to be fair, his list is probably like 30,000 people. But he segments his email, so you can unsubscribe just from the product launch emails, which I love, because I'm like, oh, I don't care about this product launch, or I already bought that, and then I can still continue to get all the normal newsletter emails. I mean, don't stress yourself out.  Michele Hansen  12:10Yeah. Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  12:14But it's an idea. It's an idea. Michele Hansen  12:20Yeah, I'm only using review at this point for, so, I don't, like, I don't even have like, ConvertKit or anything.  Colleen Schnettler  12:50Okay, set up. Michele Hansen  12:51Set up, so I, I don't, I probably should do that, but I haven't really,  Colleen Schnettler  13:00Okay, so I think podcast.  I'm still in editing, like, get it out the door mode, because there's still other like, launch stuff. Like, I have to like register the ISBN and like, I need to go through the whole process with Amazon of like, making sure all that's like, setup.  Michele Hansen  13:19So, that feels like a July task. Colleen Schnettler  13:24July task. That's fine. It's halfway to July. It's almost July. So, Michele Hansen  13:30Yeah, so I, maybe I should, like, make a spreadsheet of all the different things and, like, have a goal for those. Colleen Schnettler  13:39I'm, I'm a big fan of measurable goals, right? Like, so, so I'm team, you know, write it down, keep a spreadsheet, keep track of it. Not that I've executed so well on my goals, right? It's easy for me to sit here and tell you what to do. It's way harder when it's you telling me what to do. So, you know,  Michele Hansen  13:57Well isn't there, there's some business axiom about like, it's not like, like, like, achieving the exact goal is not important. It's the fact that you create one and then work towards it that matters. Like, there's somebody who has said something to that effect much more articulately than just said, but you know, it's like just you set the goal and then you go off on a journey to get there and you may end up somewhere else, but like, you have, you're at least doing something. Colleen Schnettler  14:23Right? You're making forward progress. Michele Hansen  14:25Yeah, and I should probably have a revenue goal, too. Like,  Colleen Schnettler  14:29So, okay. Michele Hansen  14:29Even though I don't want one, I should, I guess. Colleen Schnettler  14:32Okay, I'm gonna get off topic, and I don't want to get too far off topic. But, so I'm a really big fan of, like, famous sports coaches, like,  Michele Hansen  14:42Okay. Colleen Schnettler  14:43Like, this is, like, a thing. Like, I love reading biographies of like John Wooden and all these other really successful sports coaches. And one of my favorite takeaways from all of this information that I've osmosed is you cannot control the outcome, right? You can only control your effort and your attitude, which is why revenue goals are not very actionable. Because a revenue goal, like, you actually can't control that. What you can control is your attitude, right? How you approach the problem, and your effort, and how hard you work, and by aligning all of these steps in terms of effort and attitude, the revenue will come. But to set a goal, like, like, in the, you know, the basketball metaphors, like when the NCAA championships, you can't actually control that. You can just control how prepared you are, and your mindset when you attack the problem. Michele Hansen  15:40Oh, that makes sense. Colleen Schnettler  15:43I know that's, like, totally off topic, but I just read about it. And I'm like, Michele Hansen  15:48Yeah, so it's, so to what you were saying, like your goal of 25 podcast episodes. And, and rather than having a goal of say, you know, I don't know, like, $5,000, for example. Instead having it be like, be on 25 podcasts over the next six months to a year, about it, not including this one, because if we include all the episodes of this show then I'm like, totally hitting that, but I assume we're not. Um, and, you know, so like, being on a specific number of podcasts, or something else. I don't know, guest talks or something. Um, yeah, like picking like, specific actions that I can do that's like your equivalent. Like, it's like, write a landing page, right? Like, like, all these, like, things that are actions that I know are accretive towards,  Colleen Schnettler  16:51Right. That's the idea. Michele Hansen  16:52Good outcomes, but like, I fundamentally don't have that much control over how much I actually sell. Like, I can keep my ears out for things that might sell like, you know, for example, I'm gonna sell templates, too, for $19 that are like, Notion templates of all the scripts and it occurred to me earlier, like the, the How to Talk So People Will Talk section like, people seem to really love that. And I was like, that could maybe be its own, like, mini book for like, $10. It's like, just like, so you want, like, you know, you, you want to get information out of people, and you want them to think you're like, trustworthy and you want to, you know, learn how to, like listen actively, then, a mini book or something, like there's other stuff I could do. Colleen Schnettler  17:36Right, I guess all of my points, all of that that you just described, that's effort, right? Those are things you do. You ultimately can't control your revenue, but it'll get there if you put the effort in. That's the idea. Michele Hansen  17:46But like, I if I set the goal of like, be the, I don't know, New York Times number one bestseller or whatever, like, I have zero control over that. It's also not realistic. And it's not it, in some ways it's like, de-motivating there have a goal that is not clearly achievable.  Colleen Schnettler  18:07Exactly. Michele Hansen  18:07But being on 25 podcast is not like, like, that's like, those are very nebulous goals, because it's unclear what will lead to that.  Colleen Schnettler  18:17Yeah. Exactly. Michele Hansen  18:17But being on 20 Live podcast in six months is concrete. And I ostensibly have control over that. Colleen Schnettler  18:26Yes. Nice. Michele Hansen  18:28Wow. So, it sounds like you are doing like a lot of like, business reading lately. Colleen Schnettler  18:38Yeah, um, not a ton. So I do have a couple audio books queued up for my drive that I'm excited about, business ebooks, Obviously Awesome is one that I've been wanting to listen to and I have purchased but I have not yet. This one I just really liked. This one was about, like I said, some of the famous coaches. First of all, I'm a sucker for sports movies, but, but I really liked that idea that ultimately you, you can't control, like, if you're going to win, but you can control all of the aspects of your journey, like how much time you put in, how much effort you put in, like, what your mindset is, you could, those are all things that you know, you can control. And as you know, for like, it feels like for a couple months now I've been struggling to move the product forward. Like, the product is doing well. I hit $1300 MRR.  Michele Hansen  19:28Nice. Colleen Schnettler  19:28Which is, yeah, I mean, it's great.  Michele Hansen  19:30Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  19:30I'm really happy with it. But it, I feel a little bit stuck. I feel, and I don't know if it's, I feel stuck because I haven't had the time, or if I feel stuck because I'm actually stuck. Like, I can't figure out if I feel stuck because if I, if I, let's say I gave myself a week and I just worked every day on it if I would get myself out of that kind of rut, or if there's really no rut to get out of and this is just the nature of the product. That it's just a slow burn, which is fine. I mean, it's going well, like I'm not complaining, I know some people can't, you know, haven't hit this milestone, especially not as quickly as I did. But, um, so there's that. So, I think what I want to do is I want to make a bigger push on content. Because I really haven't, I really don't have any content out there. So that's something I'm going to try and spend some time on, and like, there's just some things about the product that I want to keep iterating on, and I want to make better. Michele Hansen  20:36I mean, we were just talking about goals and the, sort of how difficult it is to have a monetary goal because you don't have control over it. And it's, it's awesome, first of all that, I mean, to have $1300 MRR means that, I mean, a month or two ago, we're talking about how you're hitting 1000. That means that like, that's, the thing, the thing about revenue for a subscription business is that revenue happens every month, like, this revenue that I have from the book, that happened once, and that's not going to happen again. But yours, people are paying you. So it's not just that you have made $1300 like, you, that is compounding and adding on top of each other. But I am sort of curious, like, there has to be some number or range in your head where you're like, I can stop consulting now. Or I can, you know, somebody offers me a full time job and I can just like, turn it down without even thinking about. Like, there has to be some number for you. Colleen Schnettler  21:38Absolutely. And I think like, and, and, absolutely. And I mean, I'm in this for the money. Like, just to be clear, that makes some people really uncomfortable. I don't know if they're not used to women saying that or what, but like, when I tell people that they get a little uncomfortable. Michele Hansen  21:53It's like, your job, like, Colleen Schnettler  21:55Yeah, like, I want to make more money.  Michele Hansen  21:56Like, of course everybody is in their job for the money. Like, yes, I'm doing this book as like, a passion project and like, which leads me to make all sorts of decisions that are confusing to people who prioritize money, like, but like you, understandably, are prioritizing money, because this is your job. And if this doesn't work out, then you know, Colleen Schnettler  22:17I gotta go get a real one. Michele Hansen  22:18I mean tons more consulting, or like, getting, getting a paycheck job is what you have to do. Like, this is not, Colleen Schnettler  22:25Yeah, so.  Michele Hansen  22:27Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  22:28I mean, the thing I love about owning your own business is the possibilities are infinite, right? Like, I mean, I, from a personal perspective, you know, if I could get to 10k, that would be like, Oh, my gosh, I cannot, that would be, I'd be over the moon, right?  Michele Hansen  22:45So that's the number. Colleen Schnettler  22:47The number would be 10k. But, you know, why can't I have a couple million dollars a year in revenue? Like, I want a business. Michele Hansen  22:53 Why can't you have a million dollars?  Colleen Schnettler  22:56I mean, I want a business. Like, if I hit 10k and stay there forever, like, I probably would be a little frustrated. Like, to me, the whole point of having your own business is the possibilities are, in, you know, infinite. And like, one of the things I've been able to do with my modest income, is I've been able to hire two people to help write content for me. And yeah, hired someone else.  Michele Hansen  23:23Oh, you're, wait.  Colleen Schnettler  23:25And, yeah, man, I'm crazy over here. I'm just, dollar bills.  Michele Hansen  23:28Dude, and I'm like, 7 years into this and I like, just hired, like, a part time VA, like, three months ago. Colleen Schnettler  23:34Yeah, yeah. I feel like you're doing it wrong. But that's a different issue. Michele Hansen  23:37Probably. I'm doing it my way, okay.  Colleen Schnettler  23:40That's right. So, and the thing I love about that is, I, with, with the people that I'm paying, I've been able to, you know, people who are kind of writing anyway, now I can pay them to write, it seems like such a win-win. Like, I feel like I'm, it's good for them and it's good for me. And it's something I really love. So like, ultimately, I would love to build this into, like, you know, a really successful business and hire a person and, and, and be able to have created this environment where I can work with who I want and buy my beach house and all that. I mean, I'm big on the beach house if I haven't mentioned that a few times already. Michele Hansen  24:25So the first, like, the first big goal, which I think it'll be fun to reevaluate this a year from now, is like 10k basically. Colleen Schnettler  24:36Yeah. I mean, Michele Hansen  24:36To get you to 10k revenue and then to like, the big, big goal is buy Colleen a beach house. Colleen Schnettler  24:43Buy Colleen a beach house. Yeah. But to me 10k, and I don't know if I have, and I'm still, I feel like I'm in that messy middle phase. Like, I hit 1k, which makes it feel like it's a real thing. Like it's, it's legit, but I don't know if I'm in, I feel like there's a, going from zero to 1k is different than going from 1k to 10k. Right? It's a factor of 10 more. Like it's a big, you feel like going from zero to 1k is one milestone and one to 10 is your next milestone. But one to 10 is way more than zero to one, right? So, I honestly don't know if I'm positioned correctly with this product to get there. Michele Hansen  25:26Which is why you're reading Obviously Awesome. Colleen Schnettler  25:28Which is why I'm reading Obviously, Obviously Awesome. I just, I just don't know, if I'm in the right space, there's so much opportunity. I was talking to a founder recently and he talked about how he pivoted his company and moved into a totally different space, and they started growing, like they were kind of stagnant for a while, and then they kind of made this pivot, moved into a new space and their growth exploded. So, I definitely think there's a spot for me, I just don't know what it is, and I just don't know, it feels like a lot. Like the other thing that, that I wanted to just kind of bring up is when people talk about how to grow in your business. They talk about, like, building the product, as if it's this static thing that takes you like two weeks, and like writing good software is hard. And, it's a constantly evolving process. So it's something that constantly needs my you know, my attention, and that's not bad. I just feel like, you know, it's hard to balance, as most people who listen to this who are working and building a product know, it's just hard to balance all of those competing desires. So I just don't know if I have a, I guess the truth is, I don't know if I have a product that's going to get me to 10k. Like, I don't know, I don't know where it is right now. It's that product. Michele Hansen  26:52I mean, thinking back to where we were like I don't, I don't have our numbers in front of me, so I don't remember them exactly. But like, the thing that really made our revenue jump was not adding any one particular feature or one particular marketing thing. It was a pricing change, because we like, so we started out, I think we were like $31 our first month. And then I don't know, like, maybe maybe $100 the next month, and then like $400 the next month, and then in May of 2014, we had someone who needed, like, a crazy volume of usage every single day. And the only way we could make that work was basically to give them their own server. And we looked around and see what, you know, big companies were charging for these sort of really high volume, like, plans and we're, and I think we we figured out like, the cheapest one was like 10,000 a year, for, that was still like rate limited, I think to 100,000 a day, but we're like, okay, we can do like basically Unlimited, up to like 5 million a day for you for $750 a month, which worked out to 9000 a year. And adding that plan, which was like, slightly different feature-wise, but like it wasn't it wasn't like adding a feature to the API, but it was like a pricing feature, and a new plan, adding that one plan and then, like, we didn't think anyone else would ever take it, and then people started taking it. Like, that is what caused our revenue to really grow. And so I wonder if there's some space for like, you know, pricing evolution here. And like maybe there's some other way of packaging your products with the existing features in a way that's at a higher price point. But I don't like, I don't know why that is. Colleen Schnettler  28:44So I do. Michele Hansen  28:44 It's your business, like, so.  Colleen Schnettler  28:46Yeah. Michele Hansen  28:46But like, I think it's worth thinking about, like, the pricing aspects of, of this. Colleen Schnettler  28:50Yeah, well, and one of the things I do is my app has a lot more power that I'm exposing at the moment. So, I think the answer for example, like, I think I limit your file size to 50MBs, there's no reason I have to do that, like I don't, you know, there's there's a couple things someone reached out to me and told me that his company has a setup now where their customers upload files, like up to a gig(GB) through Upload Care, and then they, but they move them off the Upload Care servers, because it's so expensive, or it's a whole thing. I'm talking to him, I'm gonna, you know, have I have an interview scheduled with him to better understand Michele Hansen  29:26Whoo. Colleen Schnettler  29:26I know. Michele Hansen  29:27Music to my ears.  Colleen Schnettler  29:30But I, you know, so my point is, there's the two things that I'm not doing, I think I've might have mentioned this last week, is multiple file uploads, which I can do. I'm doing it for one client, special, and large files. So it might just be that I'm not quite positioned properly yet.  Michele Hansen  29:46Yeah. Colleen Schnettler  29:46In terms of I've really kept, I've kept a lot of that functionality close to the chest for no particular reason, just because I didn't want to like, release all the features at once and overwhelm everyone like, oh my goodness, but since I can't do those things, it seems like re, kind of revisiting, revisiting some of those options would probably be a good move for me.  Michele Hansen  30:09Yeah, I think it's really smart that you're, like you're doing a big road trip. So you're, and you're going to be listening to this book in the car, right? Colleen Schnettler  30:19Yes, ma'am. Michele Hansen  30:20Like, I find that we do our best like, business thinking on road trips, like, I, maybe it's because, you know, you like, you, you can't be doing anything else, like, you are literally stuck there. Colleen Schnettler  30:34Right. You're stuck. Michele Hansen  30:34And like, and I can't be looking at my phone in the car, otherwise, I'm going to get carsick. And, of course, it's the two of us and like, like, our go to for road trips is like, how I built this. So we end up like, really like, coming up with stuff on on, like, you know, I have, like, emailed myself of, like, conversations we've had on road trips. And so of course, it'll only be you. But, you know, those times when, like, the kids are sleeping in the back or whatever, and you can't have the audio book on and thinking all these things through, like, I think it'll be really good thinking time for yourself. And but remember to like, take notes every day on what it is that you think about. Colleen Schnettler  31:17Oh. That's a good point. I should bring a notebook. That's a really good point. Michele Hansen  31:20Like, a notebook or even just like, record a voice memo for yourself or whatever, if that's easier, just like, something so you don't, like, because there are times when when we've had like, an amazing conversation on a road trip, and then I didn't write it down. And then like, you know, a week later, we're back and we're like, oh, my God, like, what was that like, an amazing thing. And like I had this whole, like, like pre COVID, we were on a road trip. And I had this whole idea of like, our content strategy built around, like really unique address data. Like, for example, in South Carolina, there's three, there's like four towns called Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland, all right next to each other, like, I was gonna, like, write about all of these, like, odd location, address things, and I came up with this great name for it on the road trip, and then I like, I still cannot remember what that name was, so take notes. Colleen Schnettler  32:09Yeah, I totally, I totally hear you. I know exactly what you're saying. I think that's a great idea. I think I have a lot of thinking to do. You know, I kind of feel like it was really exciting in the beginning when I was trying to launch the product. And then it's really exciting. And then everything is very, very exciting. And then you hit your first milestone, and then it's kind of like, oh, but now there's another milestone, okay, so I never really win.  Michele Hansen  32:32Right. The goalpost just moves. Colleen Schnettler  32:34The goalpost continuously moves. So it's interesting to me, I mean, I have a lot to think about is like, is this a product that can get me to 10k? How do I, and how do I get there? Right? Like, what is what do I need to do to get there? As I just said, when I was giving you my little pep talk, like it's putting in the work, I mean, you know, it's not going to sell itself. So yeah, I'm ready to really, really give it some time to think about it on my epic journey. Michele Hansen  33:01Alright, well, on, on that note, I guess we should just sort of make a quick programming note that Colleen will be away for the next two weeks. And so we will, we will be leading on that social side of Software Social and have some guests coming up that I'm super excited about. And then I will be away the following week, so Colleen is gonna have a guest on, and then we will both be like, basically a month from now. Colleen Schnettler  33:34Oh my gosh. I won't talk to you for a month. Michele Hansen  33:35Wow. That feels so weird.  Colleen Schnettler  33:37Oh, gracious. That's sad. Michele Hansen  33:45I mean, you'll text me roadtrip updates. Colleen Schnettler  33:45Obviously. Michele Hansen  33:46Yeah.  Colleen Schnettler  33:46Obviously, I'm so excited to see, like, cactuses, by the way.  Michele Hansen  33:52Yeah? Colleen Schnettler  33:52In Arizona. Yeah. I'm so excited to see the great American West. Michele Hansen  33:55I've heard Arizona is, like, gorgeous. Colleen Schnettler  33:57Yeah, I'm super pumped to see a big cactus. Anyway. Michele Hansen  34:00Oh, I've been there. I was okay, whatever. We're gonna stop here for today. Colleen Schnettler  34:07Wrap it up. Michele Hansen  34:11I'll talk to you next week.

Today's pod introduces you to Lesley's husband, Brad Crowell, the CEO of their company. You'll meet him every other episode when they dig into the interview that Lesley hosted in the previous episode. In this episode you'll learn where the name of the podcast came from, what "Be It" actually stands for (it's an acronym) and then some great convo about the interview that LL had with Joanna Vargas from Episode 1.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Where the name of the podcast comes fromWhat the Be It acronym stands for (B.E.I.T.)How "Be It Till You See It" is totally different from "Fake It Till You Make It"How to play the "remember when" gameWhat is a "Loop" or "Open Loop"?Why procrastination is not badThe power of speaking someone's first name to themIf you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser and Castbox.Lesley Logan ResourcesLesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesFollow Lesley on Social MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInTranscription:Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to out yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan 00:32Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap, actually. Welcome to the interview recap to the BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT Pod. This is our first one! So this is where my co-host in life, Brad and I are going to dig into an amazing conversation I had with Joanna Vargas in our last episode, if you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now. Feel free to pause this now and go back and listen to that one, and then you come back and join us. Or, if you're like me, and you'd like to know how things end, then you can listen to this one, and then go back to that one. There are no rules here. This is your life and you get to Be It Till You See It the way you want. Okay.Brad Crowell 01:11She's not live. That's literally how she is.Lesly Logan 01:13It's how I watch everything.Brad Crowell 01:15YeahLesley Logan 01:16If you watch the Crown, and Google it on Wikipedia while you're watching it let me know in the DMs on Instagram. Okay, so, anyways. Um, but first, Brad, is there any. Okay, hold on. So, this is where y'all, this is where we have an audience question but I'm gonna be really honest this is the first episode so there's no way that you could have sent us anything to ask us. Cuz you didn't hear the interview yet. And this podcast just launched, so we thought we would do something different today.Brad Crowell 01:47Yeah, we thought basically instead of an audience question. That instead we share just a little bit about what Be It Till You See It actually means, how we came up with the name of the pod. And what we focus on with our takeaways, with each interview.Lesley Logan 02:09Yeah.Brad Crowell 02:09So tell me, first off, tell me how we came up with the name.Lesly Logan 02:12Okay, so let me be really honest. We have been trying to figure out a name for a podcast for about three years.Brad Crowell 02:20YeahLesley Logan 02:20So, we have, we have come up with many, we have many URLs to many podcasts that will never be, and that's okay. But the way this interview came, this way this podcast name came about is, so I have been listening to an interview with Amy Cuddy on, it's an interview is a "TED talk with Amy Cuddy" that one of my OPC members had sent to me and she said, this interview makes me think of you and how you teach. And I was like, who has 15 minutes just to watch a random interview, random TED Talks of which, I don't know anything about right like I'm not, I have to be honest, y'all I'm not a TED talk watcher when I watch a TED talk, it's because someone sent it to me. So I listen to this TED talk, and she shares how, she shares the study that they did about how if you stand in the Superwoman stance, that means, hands on hips if you're on YouTube, then you can see this if you're listening to a pod, then I need you to stand with your hands on your hips. Put your feet parallel and a little bit wider than your hips, lift your chest and be the super woman that you are. And if you hold that for five minutes. What it tells your brain is that you're a fucking badass. She didn't say that those are my words but basically they did a study where they had people stand in that posture for five minutes, and then they had people go into an interview and they had these interview - ERS, forgot the end of that - interviewer clearly haven't had to go on an interview in a while. They had these interviewers have no expression whatsoever, completely interview them and the people that did the power stance left the interviewing nailed it. When the interviewer literally gave no expression whatsoever. They had people sit in a slump position so go ahead and slouch it out, sit in the sun positionBrad Crowell 04:17Slouch it out.Lesley Logan 04:18And then go in for the interview and all those people thought they failed the interview. Same interviewers, same questions, same non expressions. How crazy is that? So then she tells a story about how her life when, when she, I forget what Ivy League school she was at, but basically she had this brain injury, she was super super smart, has a brain injury is barely making it through college somehow lands in Ivy League school, thinks she is like failing she's with her Dean or whoever you talk to at college. I don't know, no one at my college asked me to come in for an interview of any kind. And she said, I am in the wrong place, I don't belong here. And he said, Why do you think that? And she had some response and he gave her a challenge to ask a question, every class and like actually be the girl who belongs at that school. And she then went on to be a professor at another school, an Ivy League school. And this girl comes into her office like I don't belong here. I'm not good enough to be here. I'm going to cry, not going to be here. And in that moment she gave the girl the same advice and she realized she was being the person who belonged at the place until she saw that she was the girl that belonged.Brad Crowell 05:40Yeah.Lesley Logan 05:41And that stuck with me in such a way because I grew up in the fake it till you make it world, which is like, smile if you don't feel happy put a smile on your face because you will feel happy and...Brad Crowell 05:52Well, I think there's a negative connotation to that where it's like you're worried more about the way others are perceiving your tragic experience (Lesley Logan: Yeah) or your discomfort or your unhappiness, instead of you focusing on yourself.Lesley Logan 06:08YeahBrad Crowell 06:08Right? So like it's: fake it till you make it is like you know like the, the perception of others looking at you. Be It Till You See It is, is your perception of you until you get there.Lesley Logan 06:20And I love that so much because we should really care so much about what we think and not what others think (Brad: Yeah) because others are not thinking about you as much as you want, we can get that another day you could ask me what I think about that, but anyways, so that still doesn't answer your question of how it got his name.Brad Crowell 06:33Yeah, I was actually thinking about that class.Lesley Logan 06:36I know, I know. Okay, so, so, I don't remember why this class.Brad Crowell 06:41I know you told that story, I think it must have been shortly after you watch the TED talk.Lesley Logan 06:45It wasn't probably it was you know what it was. We did this whole thing. We taught a live Pilates class, virtually, because that's how we do things, And you took the workout with me, and it was a smaller class than normal, and I finished the class with us standing, and I had us stand in our power stance. And then I told you the mini version of what I just told you, because it can get shorter, y'all, I can do it shorter. And I said, and now I want you to go and be it till you see it, and you said, that's the name of the bad guy. (Brad: Yeah), and I was like, What?Brad Crowell 07:22On the spot like immediately right there I was like, That's it, that's the one! (Lesley: That's the one!) like everyone's watching like, What is he talking about?Lesley Logan 07:29Oh yeah, The poor girls on the other end of the computer who we couldn't see because of the way the camera was, I'm sure we're like, what are these people? Anyways, they're still members of ours so it's all good. So, anyway, in my creation of this podcast, and really making sure it is worth every minute of your time because you all, y'all you, I gotta be honest with you, your time is the only resource that is non renewable you cannot recreate your time. Right? (Brad: yeah), you can create money, you can create, what are the other resources in life? I don't know.Brad Crowell 08:02foodLesley Logan 08:02foodsBrad Crowell 08:03friendsLesley Logan 08:03friends. All these thingsBrad Crowell 08:04All these sounds very family butLesley Logan 08:05No, but you can make familyBrad Crowell 08:08But you don't get more timeLesley Logan 08:09you don't get more timeBrad Crowell 08:10to get more of other things,Lesley Logan 08:11Other things. Yes, so, um, so I just feel like if I'm going to be in your ears each and every week which thank you so much. I want you to get what you to I want you to get something out of it and so when I was working on this podcast, I came up with an acronym for BE IT. And that is, B is for bold, you have, you have to be bold, this, this world is not. Everyone's going to ask you to play small. And if you play small. Guess what you're going to get - small things and it's really frustrating and unsatisfying and, you know what people don't do on their deathbed go, you know, what I regretted being bold when I was 29 years old. No one does that! They're like, I regret not doing the thing. (Brad: Yeah), that was bold. (Brad: Yeah), and I so B is for bold and it is the most important thing, and it is the scariest thing is the hardest thing it's so freakin scary for me to be here right now and talking to this microphone with you but I'm being bold too. E is executable, y'all, action steps, the things this is it's executable is hard because like I'm like people, and also do things that you could actually execute but that's the other thing you could also find people to execute the task for you so that's also really awesome. I is intrinsic, he...Brad Crowell 09:29I am not opposed to having strategic boldness. Okay. I mean, those two are definitely (Lesley: That's gonna be...) there they're not mutually exclusive, they can go together.Lesley Logan 09:41Yeah.Brad Crowell 09:42You knowLesley Logan 09:43This is why Brad is here, because I have bold ideas, and Brad's like, and here's how we do that. (Brad: Yeah) So sorry, that's our dog Gaia, she's gonna do that every episode. So, I like, I'm a bold ideas person, and he's like, as soon as I start to get a little scared like, oh my god, like I don't have the skills for this, he's like, Oh, look, I've mapped out all the strategies to make this happen. So, thank you Brad for that. We'll make a shirt out of it.Brad Crowell 10:09What's I?Lesley Logan 10:10I is intrinsic and here's the thing that I, I can't tell you how to figure out what makes you intrinsically motivated but here's what I will tell you about extrinsic. Extrinsic motivation is like money, things, right? EX it's like things outside of you, and those will get you so far, you'll take promotions and other things based on extrinsic you might say yes to something, but it quickly goes away. What is the word?..Brad Crowell 10:36Intrinsic is like internally natural (Lesley: Yes) it's a, it's essential. It's basically like part of you. It's so part of you.Lesley Logan 10:46YeahBrad Crowell 10:47That's intrinsicLesley Logan 10:48And that is something that I hope as you listen to guests and Brad and I, each week that you get closer and closer to. Why the heck do you want to do what it is that you want to do, always. Like, what is it about you? Right?Brad Crowell 11:00I think intrinsic is another way to talk about. Intrinsic is strengths. (Lesley: Yes) Right? Like, What are your strengths?Lesley Logan 11:08Well, you know what? People should ask us that question. We don't have time for that today, but hint, hint. You should ask that question because there's a good story around that. Okay, (Brad: T). T is targeted. So, targeted is just like, I believe you have to hit deadlines on things there needs to be a target to it, there has to be something that makes you take the action so you can be, you could have a bold idea, you can write out all the strategy, you could be intrinsically motivated. And if you don't put a target on that thing. You will put it off till tomorrow. (Brad: Yeah), and another day, and it will just be this thing that you've always thought you would do one day but you never do. And here's the thing about targets. You make them. And therefore if you don't meet them, it's not like, oh my gosh, I suck at this. No. You actually just go, Okay, why didn't I hit the target when of what I set? What got in the way of that? And I, and you ask yourself some questions, and then you go, okay, how can I fix this for the future? And then you've set a new target. Trust me. This podcast was supposed to start three years ago.Brad Crowell 12:24Well, also the thought process hadn't been put in to actually make it what it is so like we had this intention. Right, but we didn't take bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted action until, what, a couple months ago.Lesley Logan 12:41Yeah, I think, well I think sometimes, you know, ideas have to percolate and we did not put a target date on it, because we, well we can get into another day but like 2019 was going to be a podcast we decided that was the year that we like. Was that no new things? Was 2020...Brad Crowell 12:58I think 2020 I can't remember, but it isLesley Logan 13:00I don't remember why 2020 didn't happen, but...Brad Crowell 13:02It's fine. (Lesley: Yeah), the fact is that now that it's, it's coming together and I'm really excited about the planning and the strategy and the BE IT, and the acronym, I think it's awesome.Lesley Logan 13:13Thank you.Brad Crowell 13:14So, so, soLesley Logan 13:16Wouldn't be here without youBrad Crowell - 13:17Yeah, what an audience question. That wasn't. So fun, it's so great that it was...Lesley Logan 13:22And so you can ask your questions for us to answer on Instagram, @be_it_pod so if you just type in BE IT POD as three separate words and we'll pull it up or if you're like really someone who likes detail, it's really boring it's @be_it_pod. But anyways, (Brad: You'll find us) I read all the way and you will find it. I want you to tell, ask us any questions you want, there's not a question we probably can't answer. And we're really honest for like, No.Brad Crowell 13:56Yeah and so anyway, (Lesley Logan: Okay) I love it. (Lesley: I love you and I love it) So, thank you. Thanks for that.Lesley Logan 14:01Thanks for calling it out babe, I would have just let that moment pass us by and you're like this is it. So this is also, like, why you're here, and you keep your highlight the good stuff (Brad: End scene). Thank you. So, before we get into our whole shebang with talking about Joanna, I just want to say I have a quick little freebie for you so here it is: You may not know what it is you want to be right now, but prioritizing your time for yourself is of the utmost importance - that is totally a Brad sentence - here's the deal. If you don't prioritize yourself, no one's gonna prioritize you, and I believe in practicing prioritization. And one way that you can do that is with a Pilates class with me. Why? Because every time you show up for yourself on your mat you are telling the universe, you're telling yourself, I'm probably, prioritizing me right now. And so in order to do that because you might be like, “Girl, I don't even know what Pilates is”, I want to offer you a free class at OnlinePilatesClasses.com/beit. So that's OnlinePilatesClasses.com slash b e i t. All right, Brad, who are we talking about today?Brad Crowell 15:12Okay. Amazing. I really can't wait to talk about Joanna Vargas. She is an absolute rocket like rock star rocket like craziness she she's like a. She's like a bottle rocket, I mean every rocket you can imagine, she's that.Lesley Logan 15:27She's fire. She's fireworks, she's glitter that just enters the room.Brad Crowell 15:34Yeah, (Lesley: She's so awesome), she's like that, the glitter all over the place. We met Joanna at a conference two years ago now or something like that, and we had a chance to, to really get to know her over six months. And what a great interview. I'm sure you kind of picked up on that if you had a chance to listen to the interview with her already, I'm sure you picked up on that. Anyway, I just wanted to do a brief intro. Joanna Vargas has been an entrepreneur since she was a little girl, like really little, I think she said at six or seven years old, she started her first entrepreneurial thing. She creates her own life and questions everything. She is a total powerhouse, and she's the host of two podcasts The Get Up Girl and Dance Your Life, and aside from that she is just a really really strong businesswoman and, you know, loves life, so it was a really great pod.Lesley Logan 16:29I mean, there's there, you're gonna want to listen to that interview several times and it's fine to save it and listen to it when you need it again, how she like she sold, she bought avocados from her neighbors, and then sold them back to the people she bought them from which is just like a hustler! And she called herself a hustler. So, okay, here's what I'm talking about. In the interview, you'll hear us talk about this game she used to play with her girlfriend which is called "Remember When" and they would just lay around, and they would talk about remember when... And they would just pick something out that happened in the future, but they're remembering it and then they would just layer on it and it makes me think of those like childhood games where you would say a line and someone else's a line. (Brad:... whisper down the lane) Is that what it's called?Brad Crowel 17:15No, no, no. It's no, I think it's almost like you're telling a story but you can change the, you get to change the story. You have like five words to change. (Lesley: Yes) I can't remember what that...Lesley Logan 17:27Someone will tell us on Instagram. Anyways, um, I love this and so on the spot in the interview, she and I played Remember When. (Brad: Yeah) Let me just tell you (Brad: It was pretty fun), Joanna and I have only hung out two times around 50 other people. And we had another moment where we were doing photo shoots, but she was in her picture taken and I was getting my picture was taken. And so, you can play Remember When with a complete stranger or someone you barely know or somebody you kind of know or your best friend, and I really want to make this like a date thing, babe, I want to put this in our calendar.Brad Crowell 17:58OkayLesley Logan 17:58OkayBrad Crowell 17:59Remember WhenLesley Logan 18:00Remember WhenBrad Crowell 18:00Put in the calendar?Lesley Logan 18:00Put it in the calendar. I want us to play Remember When, because in the interview Joanna and I did this and we listened to it, because we bring up Oprah calling, and then, I think it was me, but maybe it wasn't but I thought I said, and then we told her we can't do that day can you do this day instead? And then, Oprah changed her schedule. And let me just tell you.. when I came out of the interview, I was like, Oprah's gonna change her schedule for me! I was on fire from playing Remember When. In that moment, it just made me feel so much extra and I think it's really easy to get exhausted from the day today. And when you need to feel a little bit extra, I want you to call someone and play Remember When so that's my favorite talking point.Brad Crowell 18:49Yeah that was pretty cool.Lesley Logan 18:49It's really hard to pick a favorite, but that's the one.Brad Crowell 18:52I had a question for you (Lesley: Okay) about something that you both referenced. You referenced this thing called open loops, but I didn't really know what it was. And I thought it might make sense to just kind of explain that a little bit.Lesley Logan 19:06So that's a great question, and partly because Joanna and I are both huge believers of openness, we're like, everyone must know what an open loop is. So, thank you for asking about open loop. As human beings we like certainty. Okay, we don't let.. We need change because that is like the only thing that is certain in life is that everything will change. But we like to pretend like we know what's going to happen next, which is why the pandemic was such a like thing, because all of a sudden, there was nothing certain, but nothing's ever been certain, but our brain likes certainty. (Brad: Okay) So, when you ask your brain a question. We've talked about this with our AGENCY group, babe. When you ask a person like, “Do you know anyone who could take Pilates with me?” That is a question that actually is a closed loop because they go yes or no. Right? But when you ask them, “Who do you know who would take Pilates with me?” (Brad: Love this) It is an open loop. (Brad: Okay), so, in that same way of changing the question that opens a loop. (Brad: Yeah) Open loops are putting a question mark on something that can't be a yes or no answer, it has to you, you're, you actually are asking your brain a question and not purposely not letting your brain answer it right away.Brad Crowell 20:29So that's interesting because I think that I heard this growing up and that your brain will subconsciously work on an answer, even when you're sleeping, even when you're awake, like you can, start the brain processing something and then like, days later you'll be like. Aha! It happened, it's there. And I've done that, strategically over the years. Like, okay, I'm going to start dwelling on this props of this issue, this problem, this this puzzle, this thing, or conceptualizing it or I'll like start thinking about it, and then, but I know I don't have the answer, but I want to consume the information and let my brain just start working on it.Lesley Logan 21:09Oh yeah, it's why procrastination is not bad if you do it strategically, (Brad: Interesting) And if you like. If you know you need to work on something you ask yourself, an open loop question on the thing. (Brad: Yeah), and then you procrastinate in air quotes (if you can't you can't see if you're listening but the youtubers can). And you procrastinate on it. Your brain is working on it so then when you actually go to sit down and do it before it's due. You have it all that, it's all...Brad Crowell 21:34Yeah. So this is actually, that's really interesting. It's just how I work. (Lesley: I know) Just literally how I work.Lesley Logan 21:39I know you're an open looper.Brad Crowell 21:40So because what I'll do is I'll say alright if it's still on Friday. Today I'm gonna think about it. Tomorrow I'm gonna visualize it in my head, I'm gonna actually like, I pull the pieces together. I like, I need it. I'm also the person that like really needs to see all the parts of a puzzle, like I need to lay them all out in front of me and go what order they go and, you know, and then (Lesley: It's different processes) And, and then, but then I can build it almost in my head, and then I sit down and I actually build it.Lesley Logan 22:09YeahBrad Crowell 22:09And this is how I build websites, this is how I problem solve. This is, yeah, all the things - that's fastinating.Lesley Logan 22:15You also do this just in life you're like, “Hey, you want to know something?” And then he doesn't say anything! And you know what, this is proof that brains don't like open loops and it wants to figure out the thing, because I'm sitting there going, and then getting agitated. What do I want to know? So anyways, (Brad: I actually do that) we talked about what open loops are and and her famous open loop is: How does it get better than this? How does it get better than this? And she challenged my question of, I'm always asking people if you can't do a Pilates exercise, what can you do, what else can you do? And it is very easy for you to go, well what can I do, and like to change the connotation. So we talked about, probably not on this podcast but in another inner other talk because Joanna and I just can't stop talking to each other. What else is possible, right now?Brad Crowell 23:11YeahLesley Logan 23:11What else is possible right now? And it is awesome and I love that. And so if you cannot say whatBrad Crowell 23:18Same thing with the curious, like being curious.Lesley Logan 23:22Being curious? (Brad: Yeah) Oh yeah, she talked about curiosity and so good. But anyway okay, basically we are just talking about how awesome the interview is so go back and listen, (Brad: Yeah) save it, share it with a friend who needs it because it is fire, she is you. You can't not. Brad's gonna hate I just said that you can't not feel like empowered after listening to that you have so many options that go off. Okay.Brad Crowell 23:43Yeah, also stated as ‘you will feel empowered.'Lesley Logan 23:47Well that's what you're here for, babe, for the people who don't like double negatives, you can, you can translate it to a positive for them.Brad Crowell 23:55Alright, so finally let's talk about the BE IT actions from this interview. What bold, executable intrinsic or targeted action items? Can we take away from your convo with her, and I thought I'd jump in first and just say one thing that I noticed wasn't anything you talked about. There wasn't like an actual talking point you had. If you go back and you listen to this interview, I am pretty sure she used your name, Lesley 50 times. (Lesley: I know) She says it in almost every sentence (Lesley: She does) Lesley, you know what Lesley, you know, this Lesley. Lesley right and I, and I picked up on it, like maybe halfway through two thirds of the way through and I was just like, Now I was listening for it and then I heard it the rest of the way through. And I thought wow, she is just so amazing at connecting to people in how she engages with them, she focuses on them. She speaks their name she knows them, (Lesley: Oh yeah) it is, this is obviously a sales tactic for those of you who have everLesley Logan 24:54She wasn't selling. Only her thoughts to me like she wasn't selling anything.Brad Crowell 24:58Right, well I think for her it's habit now (Lesley: Yeah) it's just simply habit right so it doesn't matter if she's in a sales call or not, but I, I really, I noticed that, and I thought, “Man, that is amazing, that is definitely something that you can straight up take away.” So if you're trying to ever go and connect with other people, using their name is so important.Lesley Logan 25:22So, I will just like total plug, not sponsored by this podcast, but ProfitablePilates.com has a course with her on how to create clients for life. (Brad: Yeah) And she talked about saying, saying people's name. And she talked about how to. And she also talked about how to remember people's names. So if you're like, I don't remember anyone's name, hold on, that is a closed loop, and she'll teach you how to do that. But what that made me feel in my own interview with her was that she saw me, (Brad: Yeah, sure) And she was totally like that was like a conversation she and I was, she and I were having. And I was on her Get Up Girl podcast recently. She said my name so much, I started saying her name, I was like, you know what, Joanna? And I was like, I feel like I gotta say it every sentence because, but it was like, why not, why not say people's names. So anyway, I love that, of course, you saw that.Brad Crowell 26:14Well, same thing. What about you?Lesley Logan 26:17Oh, okay, this is really big to me because, um, I think we hold ourselves back by telling ourselves a story and in her action items of be it till you see it, she says, Everything is a choice. (Brad: Yeah), everything is a choice and this is really hard when like, ish is hitting your fucking fan. I don't know why. (Brad: You believe the first one) I believe the first one. But the second one is important. So, look. We will have different guests on this podcast that are gonna have different things, and, and maybe you're like, “My, my shit isn't as big as theirs.” Whatever. What are you going through right now? It can suck, even if it's not traumatic or cancer or any of these things. I have definitely been there. People are just now hearing that I've been homeless three times and they're like, “Whoa, I didn't know that but you.” Well, right. You didn't know me when I was homeless, that's okay and. And also, it wasn't. I told myself I wasn't homeless enough because I didn't live on the streets. But what I didn't do was go, oh, wow is me, I have no place to live. I told myself on my especially my last one I was like, you are choosing to go for a bigger life than what you have, you are making this big, brave choice and I may, I made it a choice that I was living that way, and it made it made it so much more fun is the wrong word but powerful and and purposeful and and when other issues happen because...Brad Crowell 27:48It makes it more doable. (Lesley Logan: Made it more doable) You can embrace it. (Lesley: Yeah) and if it sucksLesley Logan 27:52And I could own it like I don't have a place to live because I did this and I don't have a car because I made a left turn in a different spot.Brad Crowell 27:59Yeah, so I mean, you know, I think it's a profound idea that you have a choice. (Lesley: Yeah), that life is not happening to you, (Lesley: It's not happening for you) it's not happening for you and you can choose how to take it (Lesley: Yeah) and that's a hard, that you're essentially flipping the perspective on his head, right? It's a hard thing to do. But I mean, imagine if you can find the good in a situation.Lesley Logan 28:25Well and also like, What possibility that creates? Right? Like, (Brad: Sure) you can actually ask yourself, “Okay, (Brad: Go back to the open loop.) I wonder why this is happening for me.” (Brad: Yeah), I wonder why this is happening for me, I wonder who I get to be because of this. (Brad: Yeah), and I certainly would not be the person that I am. And I definitely wouldn't be married to you. If I hadn't made the choices that put me through a trial that I probably wouldn't pray on anyone. But it made me who I am and so that's why I really loved that.Brad Crowell 28:56I think that's amazing.Lesley Logan 28:59Yeah, well, everyone. Thank you. I am so excited you joined us today. We really, I need you to know I'm so grateful that you're here. Otherwise, I would just be talking in a microphone in one of our rooms in our house for no reason whatsoever but it's true. I truly believe that we all have different people in our lives who say things that make us think of things, that make us make choices, that make us do things, that make us become the people we want to be. And so if you have any questions or you need if you're going to use any of these tips, please let us know, send us a DM on the @be_it_pod on Instagram, share this podcast, screenshot it, take, put your takeaway tag us, let us know, we really want to see you, Be It Till You See It.Brad Crowell 29:44We'll catch you on the next episode.---Lesley LoganThat's all I've got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast!One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate this show and leave a review.And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to podcasts.Also, make sure to introduce yourself over on IG at be_it_pod! Share this episode with who ever you think needs to hear it.Help us help others to be it till you see it by leaving a 5 star review and sharing this episode with that person who just popped into your mind.Until next time remember to BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT!---Lesley Logan‘Be It Till You See It' is a production of ‘As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad CrowellIt's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley LoganKevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad CrowellOur theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. 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Professor Aldred talks to Harriet Larrington-Spencer, a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. Harriet, or Harrie, developed an interest in active travel after experiencing cycling in Copenhagen and the Netherlands, and after losing the use of her left arm following a collision with a driver. Harrie discovered that while a tricycle was far easier for her to use, the physical barriers and chicanes in place on many of Britain's cycleways make the use of three wheels challenging. Harrie talks about the challenges such infrastructure poses for non-standard cycle users, about other barriers to wider uptake, such as cost, what inclusive active travel would look like, and what research she would conduct, if money were no object. And, of course, about cycling with her dog, Frida. Healthy Active Cities is a research group bringing together researchers from the University of Salford, as well as practitioners and policymakers to discuss issues in sustainable transport. You can find out more about their work here: https://blogs.salford.ac.uk/healthyactivecities/TRANSCRIPT00:00Hi and welcome back to the Active Travel Podcast, brought to you by the Active Travel Academy, and to season two. We had a little break over Autumn, and we've all been busy working on lots of different projects, but we're delighted to finally bring you the second episode – and we hope to have more in the weeks to come. But without further ado, let's hand over to Professor Rachel Aldred, Active Travel Academy founder, and our guest.So I'm really happy to be here for an episode of the active travel podcast with Harriet Larrington-Spencer, who is a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. So hi, Harrie, good to have you here. 00:11Hi, Rachel, thank you for having me.00:14Great. So one of the things I wanted to start with is really about how you got into this how you got into researching active travel, because one of the great things about active travel is that it's people from a whole range of different backgrounds in the field in terms of disciplinary backgrounds. So can you tell me how you got into it?00:32Yeah, it's so my academic background is originally not active travel, I come from a geography background. So my bachelor's is in geography. And then I moved to the Netherlands to do my master's, which was in water management and irrigation. So very different from active travel. And whilst I was there, and I did my Erasmus as part of my masters in Copenhagen, just I went from kind of cycling for, for recreation and, and a bit of sport to cycling every day, when you arrive at university as an international student in the Netherlands, they tell you no bike, no life. So you kind of the first thing, the first thing they give you is a list of all the secondhand places to buy a bike. And then from that moment, cycling just became my natural form of transportation. And when I saw then I started my PhD. Back in the UK, in Manchester, I was cycling everyday for transportation, and I got hit by a car. And then I had to start changing the type of cycling. So whilst I was cycling for transportation, I was also doing cycling for sport. But I had to kind of start working out how to cycle for transportation in a way that I could do, because the the car damaged my left arm, so it doesn't work, and my hand doesn't work anymore. So it became How could I use a two wheel bike. So I started doing doing that. And even on two wheels, I found quite a lot of barriers to cycling, and doing my everyday journeys that I just hadn't considered before. And then more recently, to make it a lot easier for myself, I have a trike, and so I can do my shopping and carry my dog more easily. And the barriers that were difficult to negotiate on a on a bike have become impossible to negotiate on a trike. And so it started from there really, and and thinking about active travelling that everybody has a has a right basically, it's kind of the right to the city is that everyone should be able to move actively around their local neighbourhood, and how to enable that. 02:43Wow,Wow, thank you now I am going to pick up on different bits of that. But just to go back to the Netherlands experience. So when you went to the Netherlands, had you been cycling much before in this country? Were you completely new to it?02:55No, so I wasn't completely new I grew up in the middle of in the kind of the middle of nowhere in the countryside. So to get to see friends it was always cycling. But also, it was cycling through farmland and fields and or very small country lanes. And it was never really it wasn't an everyday thing. So to actually get anywhere, we had no bus service, you had to learn to drive if you wanted to get anywhere independently and before kind of 17,18 cycling offered that but it wasn't particularly viable to get very far. 03:39Yeah, I know I that sounds kind of familiar. And when you came back to Manchester after the or you came to Manchester after the Netherlands, how was it suddenly cycling in Manchester after having cycled in the Netherlands?03:50It's just a complete world away. It's I think even if you remove the infrastructure from the UK from kind of that equation, the infrastructure makes a difference. But it's also that I think everyone in the Netherlands who drives is also a cyclist. So it's, it's Yeah, the infrastructure is not there. And then also cyclists are not in the minds of drivers, either. So when I got hit by a car it was because the driver overtook me and turned left because they didn't even and it was across the segregated cycle lane as well. So it's that they didn't even think that they had to kind of consider that there might be a cyclist on the cycle lane and yeah, completely different.04:39Yeah, it just highlights the need for the infrastructure but also the need for the cultural change behaviour change as well at the same time. And then you were talking about how you cycling as a disabled cyclist using a two wheeler and then using a trike was was different. Could you say a little bit more about that and about some of the barriers that you experienced there.05:00With, with two wheels, I can I can do it and I can I can cycle in, it's fine. But moving the handlebars is quite difficult picking up my bike is difficult. So the probably the biggest barrier is if you are using shared paths and then there's barriers on the shared path. So you've got, A frames are the worst, but there's also chicanes. So I think most of you probably know what chicanes are, but kind of small fences to slow you down. So it just started with the two wheels, you kind of you can negotiate it, but it takes time and it takes energy and I can't really lift my bike and it causes pain when I do it. And then when you get to three wheels, because the cycle is longer and it's wider, you literally cannot like you can't get it past A frames, and sometimes you can get it past chicanes but to do that, my husband has to kind of pick up the trike and negotiate it around. I can't do that at all by myself. So it just it means that that certain cycle, cycling routes are completely off limits to me. And they're often the cycle routes that are the nicest ones, because they're completely away from cars and roads.06:13And why why do you think this kind of this kind of thing exists? Why given that, you know, potentially it's not in line with equality legislation?06:21So the kind of technical reason that they're there is to prevent motorcycles and and anti-social behaviour on cycle routes. Often, it's part of the planning permission to get the route and the police have to if a route is going to be off road, then the police have to agree to it as well. And the police's kind of standard response is an A frame. And some residents also want A frames as well, because there's, I think there's often a fear of this kind of antisocial behaviour from motorcycles, not necessarily that it's going to happen. So, yeah, and it's and now, kind of, the more I get into it, the more I struggle, because I think kind of maybe a few years ago, it was that councils wouldn't know about the Equality Act and kind of the what, what their responsibilities are to disabled cyclists. But more and more, I'm seeing councils saying things like, Oh, we've looked at LTN 1/20 [Local Transport Note 1/20 – cycle infrastructure design guidance], which very specifically says, Don't use A frames, don't use chicanes, and the council's will recognise that, that they should not be using those and they shouldn't be implementing those. And that by implementing those, they're excluding disabled cyclists. But at the same time, they kind of say, we're doing it anyway. And we've got no other way to manage motorcyclists. So this is what we'll do.07:53Yeah, so that's, they'll just probably pick up on the LTN 1/20, the new cycle infrastructure design guidance. So that's seen some improvements, but obviously, isn't necessarily feeding through into practice. And does it highlight the extent to which things need to be aligned for things to change? If the police, you know, you don't necessarily just need transport just use to change in transport planning, but also the police and so on as well.08:15Yeah, it definitely needs to be a much more joined up approach. And even now, in in Stockport, we're seeing that there are routes that aren't accessible. So if you look at LTN 1/20, they say that the ideal route be at least spaced at 1.5 metres. And so in Stockport, they're taking cycle routes and walking routes that have this spacing already. And they're putting chicanes on them. And I've just saw a proposal yesterday where they're asking for an A frame barrier. So yeah, there's there needs to be working with police and with residents and with disabled people, as well. But to me, it shouldn't be the kind of the equality of access should be the centre point. And it's what should we be do? What can we do to achieve that rather, than kind of the restricting of motorcycles being being the point where where they start design?09:11Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of trying to restrict a minority of problematic users of one mode, that's maybe not even actually the case. It's something that's feared rather than trying to ensure inclusive access for for walking cycling, which is meant to be something that's being encouraged.09:25Yeah, exactly. And the more people you have using a route legitimately, the less attractive it will be to anyone on a motorcycle if, if you think that you're going to access that route, because it's kind of an empty space that you can whisper on your bike. It's much less attractive. If it's full of everybody on trikes bikes with push chairs walking, it's, it's very different.09:50Great, and that sort of brings up another topic, which is around inclusivity of active travel. So could you maybe sort of tell us a little bit about what active travel, how inclusive active travel is or what what needs to change.10:04I think active travel is getting much more inclusive, I see a lot of people who are non-disabled, recognising the barriers that disabled people have to active travel, I think at kind of a grassroots level, especially, it's happening more with sport than with active travel is that is kind of getting disabled people more involved, recognising the barriers that disabled people have. I think in active travel, it would really help if design centred disabled people, because anything designed for disabled people is is going to be good for everybody. So with cycling, there's so there is a lot of barriers for disabled people, anyone who wants to use a non standard cycle, there's not only the infrastructural barriers, and you, you know they're there. So it's kind of like why would you invest in something if the routes that you want to go on with your family or your friends, you can't get on. And then on top of that, you have the you have the cost of the equipment. So a non standard cycle is 1000s and 1000s of pounds. And then on top of that you have the insurance of it, you have to have the secure storage to meet the insurance requirements. And then you also need to know that when you cycle somewhere there will be a secure place to lock your site as well. So I found with my trike, I can't, I can't even use the Sheffield stand without taking up multiple spaces on the Sheffield stands. And I don't want to block other people from being able to be able to park their cycles. So there's kind of there's all these factors that have to be accounted for. And it's the same with with walking, with using a wheelchair that so much of the urban environment isn't isn't suitable for just independently using your wheelchair to get to your to your local area, whether there's no pavement drops, if there's pavement parking, parks that don't have accessible entrances to them. It's it when and when you start noticing it and I think this has happened a lot with non-disabled people as well when disabled people who who are working in active travel and are advocates within it have started pointing it out is that once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it and and it's just it defies belief really, that you would have a park that not everybody can connect thiswill be because of barriers at the gates because of steps.12:33Yes. So very similar things to cycle paths is that you have kind of the chicane entrances into the park, which make it quite difficult, especially if you're on something more recumbent. If you're on a hand cycle, for example. So you're lower down, and you'll have a longer base. Yeah, even wheelchairs, I think sometimes struggled to go through the these spaces unless it's a wide open gate.13:00And do you think that's starting to change in planning at all? I mean, if advocates are noticing it are planners noticing it, are things getting better.13:07I think that things are changing. So LTN 1/20 was an a massive win for inclusive cycling and that you can you read through that document and you see the advocacy work of Wheels for Wellbeing in there, and how powerfully and positively they've impacted the world of inclusive cycling, in terms of planning from councils. In Greater Manchester, I feel like there's much more awareness of it, but there's a real struggle to start making those changes for whatever reason. And I, I do think there needs to be a bit of bravery that I can understand that some of these are quite big changes. To say we're not going to restrict access is a big change to how kind of urban planning has been done. But I've also seen some really positive things. So Manchester highways has recently created an access group but that's because it's that has a lot of disabled people with a lot of different kind of experiences and skills. And they are hopefully going to listen to those views when when they're implementing active travel projects. But yeah, it's kind of a time will tell.14:23You were mentioning about Manchester highways and maybe it's time to say something about the Greater Manchester context because Greater Manchester is I think it's something like 2.7 million people across the urban area. So yeah, large urban area, metropolitan area, different authorities and so on different levels of planning. So how does that work in terms of active travel? How is it structured and you know, is it different authorities in charge of different bits and so on?14:50Yeah, so different authorities will be in charge of their own area. I think we then have the Bee networks for for walking and cycling with Chris Boardman who is the walking and cycling Commissioner. So this is trying to join those up a bit and have a more integrated approach to walking and cycling. It's a struggle because for different councils have different approaches and different histories, I mean, you can definitely see in Salford at the moment they've, they're really progressing with their walking and cycling, working to make things much more inclusive. So they've on one of the big walking and cycling trails, they've just been removing barriers and replacing them with bollards that are 1.5 metres apart and celebrating that as well on social media recognising that it's, it's a really positive thing to be doing, and showing that as a positive example to councils in Greater Manchester. And I think having that kind of the overall Bee network, having committed to having an inclusive approach, they have the the 12 year old cycling is the body around which the infrastructure has been built. Personally, I think the 12 year old should be on a trike. But but it's kind of getting there. And they've they've said no barriers, although you see that being put into practice quite differently, but there is pushback against it. And also, in Greater Manchester, we have Walk Ride, which is a community-based organisation. So there's the central body. And then there's all different smaller groups of people who are really interested in walking and cycling. And you see such fantastic work within those smaller groups that they have really good connections with their councils and the walking and cycling forums. And they're, they're putting a lot of pressure onto the councillors to make sure that everything done is thinking about everyone who who wants to use those, the walking and cycling infrastructure that's being built. And it's just really nice to see kind of everybody committed to making things inclusive, because often, there's a lot of what has to be done. And it often falls onto the shoulders of disabled people to do that labour. So it's nice to not always have to be the one that is pointing out the issues and following up with councillors and councils.17:15And do you think that's kind of important as well that you have? Because that's quite distinctive that you have the sort of walking and cycling advocates together in the same in the same advocacy group? Does that make a big difference?17:26Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I think the speed with which, with which Walk Ride GM and the smaller local groups have grown over the past couple of years, really demonstrates kind of the local appetite for walking and cycling. And the skills in those groups that has developed as well is amazing. So for some people, it's that they they work within walking and cycling design or infrastructure, behaviour change within local councils, and they have those skills from their jobs and from their training. But for some people there, they're kind of new to it, and learning and reading all of this all of the documents and policies that are being produced and it's just fantastic for people being able to hold the councillors to to their word basically. And to the point where people if something's installed, and it doesn't look right, or I pointed out something at the weekend, someone was there measuring it with a tape measure to check out whether the distance between the chicanes meets with the accessibility, design guidelines. Yeah, it's really cool.18:38Returning to the barriers side of things, we talked quite a bit about the physical barriers, but you talked earlier also about the sort of cost and linked with that the storage that you don't want to store something that's expensive, it might get, you know, if it's not secure, it might get stolen, do you think more needs to be done to improve access, you know, availability, affordability of adaptive cycles, ie bikes and trikes and so on?18:59Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think part of it is that if we are moving towards a modal shift, then having these products because they are quite a rare thing. So if you're having to import them, and there's very few being imported, then they're going to be higher cost. So there's kind of one aspect is the more people we have doing it then hopefully a reduction in cost, but they kind of, they are specialist, so they're going to be more expensive than a standard two wheel cycle. So there's some really great schemes going on. So Wheels for Wellbeing have one scheme in London, which is looking at loaning people non-standard cycles, and really helping people choose cycles that are appropriate for them. And and being able to do a loan scheme that can then turn into ownership if they're interested in it. And also, Cycling Projects has a similar thing in West Midlands and we're setting up a trike library in in Manchester and then hopefully that will if people will get a chance to experience trikes, because you, if if they're rare, and you don't get a chance to have a go on them, you're not going to splash out 2000 pounds if you don't, if you don't know how it's going to fit in your life that you really, you need to start doing those everyday journeys, you need to have a go at taking your trike to the, to the shop to get milk and to work. Yeah, and have that that space to build it up and build up over time and see whether it works. So I think with the trike library that we've raised money for, as part of Walk Ride in Manchester, we're going to hopefully loan out cycles for three months at a time maybe more and and help people with journey planning, with ride buddying, and all of those smaller parts to get people into it. The storage, the storage is is a real issue. And it also comes into into policing as well and, and monitoring. And if you I think bike crime is is very low on the police agenda at the moment, because there's not that much funding to police. So it's working out ways to do that. And there is this kind of on on road storage that we've seen in Waltham Forest, and you can get adapted versions of that. So there's options that we just need to keep pushing for and and ensuring that when we're thinking about those options, so in in Greater Manchester, there is there is some of I think in Salford there's some of these on streets cycle hangers, but for people to push for ones that can have non-standard cycles as well, when they're kind of being brought up in that local area.21:32Do you think there's potentially a role for a more universal scheme as well? Because one of the things, one of the criticisms that's been made of the cycle to work scheme is that, you know, certainly you have to have an employer that's opted in it excludes anybody who's not in employment. So a lot of older people, proportionally more disabled people and so on. Do you think we kind of need a more universal access to cycling scheme?21:53Yeah, we definitely do at the moment, it's kind of it falls on the the charity sector to be implementing it and their capacity to implement it is based upon their resources and always scraping the money together to be able to do it. And it's really frustrating when it's something that would help so many people. Yeah, I mean, a universal scheme would be amazing. I tried to you can, there's ways to do it through kind of access to work. But it's always there's always kind of caveats within it. And it's so that you just have to keep arguing for it. So most ability is the obvious way to do it. And there are mobility aids that you access through Motability, so to have that as as a way to do it. And also in the Netherlands, they have very similar schemes where disabled people can have access to active travel equipment. Yeah, and it's it's at a time when I think people are really recognising that disabled people want to be more active, the benefits the public health benefits of disabled people being more active are huge and organisations like great, like, Sport England, as we come out of the pandemic are centralising disable people within within their programmes, and they want to disproportionately invest in disabled people. So I think it is a really good time to start thinking about how to make these how to make access to to non-standard cycles and adaptive cycles, kind of a universal scheme.23:21Cool. And what would if you were thinking about, you know, the your priorities for getting most disabled people cycling, what would you What would you prioritise? What would you think would be the most important thing?23:36One would be the access to the cycles. Two would be working out connected routes within cities. So in Greater Manchester, we have the Bee networks, but we need to look at how the Bee networks connect and with the existing infrastructure that we already have, and how to make that infrastructure barrier free and accessible. Another one would be looking at cycles as mobility aids in in Greater Manchester, for example, people aren't allowed to take cycles onto the trams, which really inhibits multimodal journeys. So you can't you couldn't cycle from, I don't know Sale into Manchester City Centre as a disabled person to work and then think actually, I'm too tired to cycle home let me take my let me take my cycle on the tram. So because you can't do that, then you're, you're then making it a less viable option because you can't do those first and last, or you Yeah, you can't do those parts you need by public transport. So and also to be able to use the pedestrian areas if you need it to be able to put your shopping onto your bike or trike close to the shops and, and having the storage for it as well. And it doesn't I mean for shopping, it doesn't have to be the super-secure sheltered storage. It's just having storage solutions that are well spaced that can that you can use with a trike and have space to not only put your trike, but you have to think about how people are getting off and on. So you need to have that space between the stands.25:16Well, one question I was going to ask was on the research theme was getting obviously this is an under researched area if what would your sort of fantasy research project be if you had a 2 million pound research budget or whatever, you know, imagine? Imagine the zeros what what would your research programme be looking at inclusive cycling, eco inclusive active travel?25:37So for I think inclusive active travel, I think it would be fascinating to do a community mapping project where you work with disabled people's organisations, and you have disabled people map their, their everyday journeys that they do, either by whatever mode of transport they're doing, and then work with people to to look at how active travel can replace non active travel journeys basically. So and to work on the very close ones, so going to places for for small amounts of shopping, going to visit your children going to visit your parents going to the park, taking the kids to school, those journeys, but looking really specifically at the different types of challenges that people have with those. And working out how to then use that to, to create kind of more local regeneration. Because Yeah, because you're not going to get active travel if people physically can't use that their local environment. And and think about how to prioritise those. So that's one aspect. And another aspect I'm really interested in is shared space in in urban centres, because it is a really it's a very aesthetically pleasing thing to have, I think shared space. But obviously, there's a lot of challenges that it offers and conflicting challenges that it has for for different groups of people. So for visually impaired people in particular shared space is quite a challenging thing to have in it can create an environment that that whilst statistically, it's probably very unlikely that you're going to get hit by a bike, it doesn't stop the environment being hostile. So thinking about the types of behaviour within shared spaces and and how to kind of move cohesion both move cohesively and behave in cohesive ways of in the shared space. But also what type of infrastructures within the shared space, enable that that type of behaviour. So kind of a two way approach to that.27:39And actually just thinking about that in terms of the infrastructure and sharing infrastructures, are there good examples? We've talked quite a bit about the barriers and some of the problems, can you think of good examples of environments that work well for inclusive active travel and either in Greater Manchester or somewhere else, and why why it's good.27:59We have a couple of bits now in Greater Manchester, it's difficult, because actually one of the best places for kind of walking and cycling in Greater Manchester is Oxford Road. So and it is a really, really good piece of infrastructure, but the cycle track is just not quite wide enough. So I can't actually use it on the trike. But normally, I would say that there is a few bits of segregated cycle lanes that are kind of four metres wide, and have space for bi directional cycling flow. So I mean, these are perfect. But that's quite a short stretch, I'm trying to think of something. I think low traffic neighbourhoods, for example, have a real opportunity for for inclusive active travel, they don't have the segregated cycle lanes, obviously, but by reducing the cars using the roads, there is that space for any type of cycle. There's space for wheelchairs and mobility scooters. I think the the challenge with low traffic neighbourhoods is that it's not you don't automatically make them inclusive by filtering the cars from them and that the the existing infrastructures within them already can still pose challenges. So I think speed bumps is quite a good example that if you are non-disabled and walking or cycling, a speed bump isn't going to bother you. But if you're on a recumbent cycle, the speed bumps are not very pleasant at all. And the same with pavement drops as well.And there's a lot of the the issues around the built environment. So some of those things around narrow bike lanes or narrow footways and so on. 29:29So is a lot of that to do with accommodating motor traffic and then sort of people on foot, people on bikes that have had to fight it out for what's left.29:47Yeah, exactly. And you see a lot of space for cycling always seems to be reallocating space away from pedestrians. So the weekend I visited a new proposed walking and cycling route through Ancoats well from New Islington to Ancoats along a really really nice marina that's full of people walking, it's kind of there's a few different bakeries, it's a really nice space. And in this area there's not there's not that many open spaces. And instead of putting a segregated cycleway on the main road, which has five lanes of traffic, and has recently had 10 million pounds spent on its upgrade, they are trying to Manchester council is trying to put the walking and cycling route, which is a is a major league route. So it is specifically for commuting through this very pedestrian recreational, kind of sitting and being space, rather than then taking that space away from cars. And by doing that, you automatically kind of put pedestrians and cyclists at odds with each other both in terms of the space itself, but also within this wider space of kind of what a city is and who is in a city where people are supposed to be in the city. And it shouldn't be like that if we really want to have modal shift we need to start reallocating space away from cars and a lot of time if you do anything like that, then you get a lot of uproar from drivers. But there's there's very little discussion about kind of taking that space away from pedestrians and I think that's Yeah, it's often pedestrians who do suffer within that.31:28In terms of the the Greater Manchester context as well. What would you say in the next five years? Do you think things will be different in five years what hopefully what what might have changed around sort of inclusive active travel?31:42I would really like to see more people on non-standard cycles. I've definitely noticed that since I started getting since I have been cycling on a trike. I've had a lot more people on social media, for example, saying, I've never even considered a trike as an option. I thought trikes were for old people, and people saying that they're considering one as well now. And that's really nice, because it shows that you need to see people doing something for you to start considering that it's an option for yourself as well. So I think that's one aspect that if we get more people cycling, and more disabled people cycling, then hopefully it will be kind of it will build. So that's one aspect, I think another aspect is is the access to inclusive cycles. And that's something that needs to be worked on. Another one is with the Bee networks, is that we just need to keep the momentum and the energy of holding councils to account to to ensure that when things are being implemented, they're being implemented inclusively and to LTN 1/20. In it, it helps so much to have that design guidance, really, because you can just keep sending it and saying, you know, this is this is what this is what needs to happen. I think more widely, we need more than just kind of the Bee networks, we need to be looking at local journeys and how to enable those local journeys. And to maybe move I move a bit away from from focusing on commuting journeys is Yeah, and it's looking at the everyday and I think children's journeys as well as a really nice way to do that. Because they're going to school and back. That's two journeys a day. But then obviously, you need to start looking at the wider practices around that because it's hard sometimes for parents to be able to take their children to school. So we need to have the safe infrastructure for that. But it Yeah, to have this kind of joined up approach where there's the policy, there's the projects, there's the infrastructure.33:53So earlier you were mentioning cycling as well with with your dog, who's become something of a star on social media. Could you say something about your dog?34:00Yes, so we got Frida we got her very luckily at the start of the just before the start of the first lockdown. I just I had a bit of trouble at first after my accident. So kind of I'd always been doing cycling for for everyday cycling, cycling since living in the Netherlands, but also I used to do a lot of touring, cycling and sports cycling. And I was really struggling with not being able to do those anymore. And so it's just trying to find ways to enjoy a different type of everyday life. And I've always wanted a dog and we'd always be putting it off saying you know, we'll wait until we live in a house with a big garden and then just finally was really fed up and bought. Let's just do it and she'll be a good excuse to kind of go out the weekends and then because we don't have a car and Cycling is our primary form of transport from the second day we had her we started training, training her I'm not sure that's the right word, but we kind of put her in a backpack and put her on the bike and fed her lots of treats. And she just, she just loves it. She's, she's very attention seeking, which is amazing. So she'll be, she'll be like, sitting in in the bucket of the cargo trike and she'll be quite chilled out and she'll hear people in the distance and she'll suddenly pop up to give them a show, I think. And I think people really like it. They, I, I'm very, I'm very shy and I, I find it quite embarrassing, but it is really nice to cycle past people and see their really positive reaction. And I think it draws attention cycling as well because normally it's quite like a fast someone will just go past you but you can't really notice if and often I carry my husband as well in the front bucket of my of my cargo trike. So it's quite obvious when we get when we're going past and Frida's at the front. So, yeah, yes. And, well, funnily enough as well. I haven't had any close passes on the trike since cycling with Frida ever. So I think that's, I mean, there's something to say there about how people value dogs over over human beings as well. But yeah, really, she loves it, she just sits in the bucket with her goggles. And the goggles is because we started using the cargo trike because it's a bit lower down, I was worried about stones flicking up into her eyes. But she takes it all in her stride. And she she's always excited. I think it's because we are, we kind of started building in having trips, we will do our shopping. But it's about more than doing shopping. It's about going for a nice cycle along nice routes, and stopping at a park where we can throw tennis balls for her and, you know, come back via a nice way to have coffee. So it's kind of it's trying to make, because I've been I've just really loved cycling, so it's making cycling my hobby, but in a in a different way and a more everyday way. So Friday is a really important part of that. But yeah, I mean, I changed my I changed my Twitter handle to Tricycle Mayor. And then some someone said to me that actually it was Friday that was the Tricycle Mayor, and now I've realised that they they are correct. 37:32Everybody loves dogs on bikes, I think my popular tweet ever was just a picture of somebody with three dogs in her cargo bike.37:37Yeah, exactly. They're just they are a people pleaser.37:41Excellent. No, that does link back nicely into the question that I've just remembered. I was going to ask you, which was when you were talking about sort of local trips? So there's been a lot of talk recently about the well, it varies. Sometimes it's the 15 minutes city, sometimes it's the 20 minute neighbourhood, this kind of focus on things being local, do you think that that's useful? those concepts are kind of useful as well?38:01I do. I really like them, I think that we need to, I prefer the 20 minute neighbourhood just in terms of people's speeds. And I, I, I hope that kind of from people spending a lot more time in their local areas as well during COVID. And locked down that perhaps people see the value in that as well. And in my research at the moment, and just talking about people about what they've been doing during lockdown and how they've been using their local neighbourhoods, it's really nice to hear how people know their local neighbourhoods a lot better. And spending a lot more time and getting to know all of the different roads and using local shops and local places to go and get a coffee when they go and walk. And I yeah, I mean, for us it comes into the same kind of having, trying to make cycling and doing these everyday activities part of the hobby. So we're starting to use a local refill shop, for example, and cut that part off of off of supermarket shopping. And it does, it's having the time to do that as well. So there is a there's a time element that you have to have kind of that disposable time to be able to go there. So I'm we're looking at how to do all of our shopping locally, and what we can do plastic free.Thanks so much Harrie, that was a really great chat and I look forward to seeing what happens with you next with your research with Greater Manchester. You've been listening to the active travel podcast. You can find us online on our website at blog.westminster.ac.uk/ATA/podcast, we are most podcasting hosts and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @active_ata. Let us know what you think, drop us a tweet or an email at activetravelacademy@westminster.ac.uk Thanks for listening. Until next time. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

 Episode 7 NotesLindsay 00:42Well, I am so excited today because I want to be talking to you a little bit about the illusions in job searching, specifically what to do when you're not qualified. So what I mean by that is that when you tend to see a job posting, you look at it and you go, “Oh, crap, I don't meet everything that is on this list. “, and it causes us to stop what we're doing, and to not take the next step. So, a lot of you are telling me that I have this experience, I don't have enough, or I am not sure it's the right experience. And so I want to walk you through what this is like on the inside as a recruiter. So, I'm going to introduce myself. Hi, I'm Lindsay Mustain. I'm the CEO of Talent Paradigm. And I want to introduce you to one of my lead coaches, which is Nicole Evans. Both of us have a ton of time in recruiting and talent acquisition. And Nicole at one time was actually my intern, this was six years ago. She worked with me at one company, I took her over to Amazon. And now we get a chance to work together in Talent Paradigm. And so I am so excited to share with you from two different perspectives of people who are actually in recruiting about what happens here. And so, a lot of times when we put up a job description, people take this as the Bible. And what I mean by that, is that this is black and white, there is no wiggle room, and this is what you must be in order to be qualified. Now, how many of you have seen some crazy job descriptions? I've seen a lot. Yes. And so this is where I'm like, okay, we use job descriptions. What happens when we use it? Okay, so what is the job description? Let's go to that part first.A job description is essentially the duties and responsibilities or tasks that you will perform on the job in the role. Now, how companies do this is that job descriptions are used almost verbatim as job advertisements. And so we do that, because we want it to be compliant with a lot of EEO or OFCCP guidelines. And we don't do a lot of work to actually make it attractive and exciting for someone to apply. It is literally a bulleted list. And I'll tell you, what we use job descriptions for internally is one, aligning pay codes. And we also do it to make sure that you are doing the work that we say that you should be doing on your performance review. And then the other part that we don't tell you is that we use it to performance manage you out when you're not being effective. And so this is what a job description is really there for and I have a really big beef around it, because it doesn't entice anybody to actually want to work for your company, it's just a really good description of what it is that you would do as if somehow like “reporting as necessary” is somehow an exciting way to attract your ideal client. But the government requires us and I'm going to talk about the United States in particular, so that wherever your location is, that might vary. But for a lot of businesses, we're required to post a job. Now , there's a lot of other things out there, that means that only 20% of jobs are actually posted. So I want you to really recognize that this is like when you look at the pool of all the jobs that are listed, I want you to think that that's just a tiny little puddle that you're fishing in. It's actually not, there's a whole ocean out there, but all you can see is a 20%. And then I want you to recognize that this is just a wish list. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about that. When we actually have an opening inside of a company at a high-performance organization - somebody needs really top talent, we don't sit around and hope that you fall into the right job description, okay? Because it's kind of like, “Okay, I need somebody who's amazing and fantastic, and I'm just going to go over here and I'm going to set a trap, or some sort of something to catch something and, I'm just going to put in my backyard, and I'm just going to hope that somehow, (it's like trying to catch a Bigfoot) Bigfoot is going to walk by through this hole at this exact time, at this one place in the universe at this specific moment.”It doesn't work, and it's why we actually don't use that strategy to find our ideal clients or our ideal candidates. We don't do that. We go out and we don't like the idea of being very passive, like “hope they like pie!” We call this the spray and pray by the way, like spray it out there and pray the right person comes along; it doesn't really work like that. High performance organizations and recruiting actually go out and hunt the right candidates. And so when people are like, “I'm not getting a call back,” I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the science behind this. But I want you to know that you're playing a game where you're destined to lose. Okay?So on average pre-recession, a job description would get 250 applicants, it used to be actually a couple years ago about 150, so it went up. Just by default, 1 out of 250 meant that you had a 0.04% chance if you applied to get the job. Okay, 0.04% chance. I don't know about those odds, but if you were giving me like a medical diagnosis, and you said, “You know what, you have some sort of infection, and here's something that I'll give you; it only works about 0.04% of the time.” I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem really good. Yes, it's not good. Not good. But this is how most people work. I'm actually I'm going to go back to a company that's called talent dot works. They did an actual study on some of their job applications. The average applicant for them, 176 is what they estimated on this, and they said that they defined 77% of applications are spammy. So what does that mean? A spammy means that they have a mismatch of skills. All right. So let me tell you why this happens. There's that easy Apply button, and there are people who just need to get their numbers in, and they're hitting that button, so they dilute the pool of good people because they just need to apply and they're not interested in the end result. Which is why, Employers, if you are making an easy Apply button, you are literally making your job more difficult. Stop it. Make it difficult for people to apply, that way you can actually get a qualified pool in there. If you make it easy, you're just going to get a whole bunch of crap, and I'm all over quality versus quantity; and I know because I've managed over a million resumes in my lifetime. So that's the first one, mismatch skills. The second thing is, and I'm going to say this is their verbiage not mine, dumb mistakes. Dumb mistakes, and this, I'm going to say 75% of people fall into the “dumb mistakes” category. Sorry, love you guys. There's a reason why I wrote a bestselling book about this. You don't include the basic information like your email, or your phone number, or any of the kind of contact information that we actually need to have that if you misspell things there, there's going to be some very obvious things are going to get you disqualified here. So mismatch skills, dumb mistakes, and then the last one was something spammy. Like you're a recruiter and you're trying to submit somebody else, or it's just it's not viable. Okay, so 77% so now we're going to say okay, so for the recruiters job, immediately 77% of people are not even close to qualified, okay? Not even close to qualified. Alright. So that leaves somewhere around 23% potential people that are qualified. And then how many of those people that apply, actually get an interview? Well, the number is around 3%. Okay. And then the chance of you getting selected for from the interview is somewhere a lucky 10 to 15%. If these sound like shitty odds to you, it's because they are. So here's why I'm telling you this. A lot of people won't tell you this truth, and it's the one thing I got really well known at Amazon doing was to tell you guys this. I would just be willing to tell you the inconvenient, uncomfortable truth, because it is a losing game; you're going to lose at it. And then somehow you're going to say, because I was unsuccessful in a game that has been rigged for me to fail, that somehow I am not worthwhile, or my worth is diminished. And that story just isn't true. And that's why we're here talking about them. Okay.All right. So, now we go to the idea of why don't other people apply who are more qualified, okay, so we created the easy Apply button, (guys, don't do that). Like, if you are job searching, you need to be intentional with this. So that's a whole other conversation. But when you go into this, I want you to remember that the list on our job descriptions is a wish list, right? And so we do something called required experience, at the very bottom. Required experience or competency. Sometimes we use those interchangeably. And the required experience - when you see these, usually the first three bullet points are things that we tend to need to have required. Okay. When I say “tend to”, I'm going to tell you a little bit of what that what that means. But we say it tends to need to be required, because these are the things that the government will assess whether or not we fairly screened people against, okay. And I‘ve had somebody ask me, “hey, how do you actually screen people?” Well, I'm going to tell you usually it's a first in first out, and it's totally subjective how many people that we screen. And the reason why is that just like every business is completely unique, so is every recruiting process. So we have standard things that we do, but the number just depends on the quality. So if we have 100 bad applications, then we're probably going to go to 125 when we review them, but however, if the first 20 people are amazing, and we spent the time to create an actual job description, that's exciting for people to apply, then that may be all I'm going to do out of the 250 apply. Just the first 25 because that was enough, which is again, first in, first out. If you're going to play this game you need to apply first, okay, so it's not the most successful way to do it. I'm just going to say that right now, this is a strategy for people who want to play at the lowest odds of success. So if you want to do the spray and pray as a candidate, this is how you do it. And I'm just telling you, because I want to be honest about what happens Here's how you get past this. So when we use the job description is just to cover basic qualifications. Now, as a high-performance organization, I'm going to go out and I'm also going to go look for that person on LinkedIn. Okay, I can also do it on Google. And we do something called a Boolean search string. And it just helps us define the parameters. If you've ever done this in a research paper, you might have gone to find content that you would put inside of like a paper and you would cite. The same thing happens actually when we go out and look for you all, which is where you want to pretend to be the candidate of choice. And when I say pretend, appear is more like the word, appear to be the candidate of choice. This means that you fit all the desired requirements for your ideal career opportunity, so that when a recruiter runs across your resume or your profile, they go, “Holy crap, we can't talk to Nicole, she needs to come here and work for us!” Okay. So that's the mindset here of this process. Now, if you are looking at a job description, and you're saying, “Well, I'm not qualified,” the first thing I need you to do is to check that assumption, okay? So, when you say I am not qualified, there's going to be some things on there that say a degree is required. Okay? So there's going to be some people that will be upset with me about this one. A degree is not required. There is no company that I have been in where we say degrees are required. And we require 100% of the time. Okay, there we go. That is not the case. Now, this is where I'm going to turn it over to Nicole. Because Nicole is going to tell you a story about being completely unqualified for the job that she ended up getting.Nicole 11:51That sounds crazy going back to it! When I had met Lindsay at Frontier, and she actually turned over to her next chapter into Amazon, I wanted to follow. A big part of that was because (a little backstory), Lindsay was someone who really helped me find my voice and my confidence, and really be able to shine out with my passion. And that's something that's so contagious and seeing where my next opportunity was, I had to follow that. That's where I landed with Amazon. So when I interviewed with Amazon, I didn't have a bachelor's degree at the time. I had just been working through finalizing getting my associates, and my main focus was really on my career experience. At the time, I only had a little bit of retail experience with GameStop, and my first job was at KFC. So I really didn't have a ton of HR/recruiting, I only had just a little bit from working with Lindsay at Frontier. So going to Amazon didn't have a bachelor's, I barely even had the recruiting experience, but a big part of what I learned with my time at Frontier and with Lindsay is the power of your narrative. Really just believing in my passion and having my career clarity. So when I went into Amazon, again, I did not have my bachelor's degree, and that was one of the requirements, and I didn't even have the full recruiting experience, but what I did have was my passion, and I knew exactly what I wanted next. I wanted to be able to go out and I wanted to expand on my recruiting experience, really go into my passion of meeting with people, building communities, and helping other people find their voice, and that all went into my narrative. So that's when I went in for the interview, I shared my passion and my narrative. And from there, I was able to land the opportunity. And I was able to really expand on my zone of genius. And I continued to expand on that as a recruiting coordinator, and I quickly led my own team as an RC captain. At that time, RC Managers were very new to my department within Amazon. There wasn't really a pathway for RCs to become an RC manager, this is actually quite a significant jump. This is the passionate area for me, and so I ended up creating a role. I used the power of my narrative to show why we needed this, why this is so valuable, so important, how I can take this to the next level. And it worked. And I was promoted to be the first RC Lead, leading a small team of recruiting coordinators. I helped over 15 recruiting coordinators promote into their passion areas within the tech side, Executive Assistants, Recruiters, HR Assistants, Learning and Talent Development, there were all kinds of amazing opportunities, and I was able to be a part of their journey and help them figure that out. And I loved it. I was promoted again into an RC manager which is also known as a Talent Acquisition Manager. I ended up managing a team that grew to 23 Recruiting Coordinators, and I continued to thrive helping more RCs and even new recruiters find their confidence and doing what they love. So I was really able to thrive and the power of that is all through, again, I was able to fuel my passion because I knew exactly what I wanted to do through finding that out with Lindsey. And I was able to carry that forward. Did I need a Bachelor's? No. Did I need all the experience? No. I was able to speak to that. I was able to find my way through and able to prove that. I've had my own amazing journey since then, and because Lindsay is so contagious, I had to continue to follow her, which is why I've ended up at Talent Paradigm.Lindsay 15:29So this is where the belief that somebody, and I don't want to diminish Nicole, because she is amazing. Like, there is a reason why we pick as we call it the best and brightest at Amazon. You really have to be the cream of the crop in order to come in. So the process - I like to say, unless you feel like you walked out without being run over by a Mack truck, at your interview process at Amazon, you likely didn't get it because they will interview you at an extreme level. So you do have to perform when you get in there, and Nicole's the perfect example of somebody who performed under that. So let me be really clear that hunger and enthusiasm beat qualifications every f**ing time. That's what it beats, every time. Okay, so there's a reason why Nicole was able to beat other people because she was enthusiastic, and she was willing to learn. And then the other secret is, she had a referral. She had an “in”. And so in fact, Nicole, you want to tell about your referral of inside of Amazon? Nicole 16:33Oh, it was you!Lindsay 16:35Oh I know, I meant like, you referred other people into Amazon, didn't you?Nicole 16:38Oh, that's right! My brother, actually. So fun little story about my brother (Sorry, Lindsay. I just I love you so much, my auto response was you!) So my brother actually went in to interview with Amazon and I was able to provide him a reference. But the thing was with him is he had that hunger as well, and that power. He became a Software Developer. And not to discredit my brother, I love him, but he came from a startup company and barely had a year. He also doesn't have his bachelor's, and he became not just an entry level Software Developer, but he was at mid-level, someone with three to five years of experience. He went in and, he showed them why he's passionate, why he was meant to be there, why they needed him.Lindsay 17:31I love that. So that that is exactly it. You're going to hear me talking about narrative a lot because it is your story to tell your place of power. Now you can tell the blooper reel, like, “I've been laid off, I've been fired, I've been this, I've been that,” or you can say, “I am this person with this amount of experience with these kinds of qualifications. Here's what I want to look for in my next job. I've had the luxury of having lots of opportunities to make the decision of what's best for me now.” That's a very different power position than somebody who comes in and is applying and hoping for that 0.04% chance of success. This is where the secret is around how you get inside of this process. You don't use applications, okay? So, take that time. Take that time and invest it in actually being very intentional in your career. So you can use applying as part of your methods, but there's some rules around that. Okay, so one, first in first out, you want to apply in the first four days. Ideally, you want to apply first thing in the morning, somewhere between 6 and 10 am. And the reason why is recruiter workflow says we tend to go for like, (this is what I teach my recruiters, how to go through is the first thing in the morning), and we go through them, and then we disposition them. That means we give like a, pass/no pass, and then we move on. We do this every single day. Now, they say you know not to apply, these are just stats, okay? So everybody is going to have something different. I'm talking about the entire entirety of all applying. You don't want to play on weekends, and you don't want to be at the tail end. Because again, first in first out, there's no reason why if you're the number 300 nobody's going to look at number 300. Okay, so you want to get in there very soon. Okay.Lindsay 19:06Now, the other thing I want to say, inside of the job descriptions is that the number one reason people don't apply. So there's a whole group of people who are amazingly qualified, and didn't even bother to put their name in the hat. Well, one, I would say, maybe you've gone and done the strategy of what I would tell you, which is really intentionally deciding what it is that you want in your career and then going for it, or perhaps you lacked confidence. So this confidence effect means that when women see a job description, if they are not 100% qualified, they tend not to apply. Alright women, knock it off. Men, if they are 60% qualified will apply. I'm just talking about in the industry with research, so that doesn't mean for individual people. I'm just talking about the entire data set. And the number one reason why they didn't do that is that they felt like they would not be qualified based on the job description. And they knew that they were going to fail, so they didn't even bother. Which I'm going to say that last part might be true. But here's the deal, women, I'm just going to give you the pitch here. There's a reason why there are more men than women who apply in the pool. That's just in general, we know that. And it is because if you have greater than 30% of the qualifications, women, I'm giving you this in particular, this is what the study says, is that if you're granted 30% of qualifications, it's just as good as if you had 90%. All right, so men, you can take it and run with it too. But women in particular, you have an added advantage here, you need to go and really think about applying even when you are not perfectly qualified, okay? And let me just tell you, the amount of times that we find somebody who is exactly qualified with everything else, every single thing in a job description, is none. It's none. No, it's completely bespoke to the person like when we come in, we will up level, we will down level, we will find a place for the right candidate, even on a whole other team in a different job. If we find the right person, and that's the one thing. I think people really think it's black and white, apply, hope to hear back interview, hope to hear back and you're in limbo land, and then get that rejection notice. And they do it hundreds, 1000s of times in some of the cases, and it just doesn't work. The reason why is it's not your fault, the system has been designed for you to fail. And I'm going to be honest, it's in my best interest for you to fail, because then I will pull down from all the people who are grossly under qualified to just get to the cream of the crop. But it's why your recruiter is exhausted, because they have 1000s of applicants who are not quality. But when you just apply with no rhyme or reason, that's diluting this whole process for everybody else. So you actually are hurting everybody in that, which is why you don't want to take the traditional approach and job searching. What you really want to be doing is appearing is what we call the candidate of choice, okay? This is also called the purple squirrel. Okay, so what is a purple squirrel? A purple squirrel is a term we use in recruiting all the time, and it's kind of like trying to find a unicorn, unicorn Pegasus, in fact we're going to go really extreme on this. It means the absolute perfect candidate who is the perfect fit for the hiring manager who will come in and be a slam dunk, and we would be stupid not to do everything in our power to get them on board. Now, how does that sound from a place of career power? Very high. So when somebody is really high up on the career power level, that means that they can demand just about anything they want. Because guess what? The people who are in high career power, they don't have just one option, they have multiple options. This is really what I teach people is how do you create this? How do you become the candidate of choice? How do you truly ascend to this place of career power, where opportunities are just at your door knocking? How do you do that? That's what we're working on in this process. So you need to really ascend to that place of career power. If you truly want to demand top dollar for your skills, if you want to completely create your dream job, if you want to be sought after by the highest talent or highest caliber companies that are out there, and you want to be the highest caliber candidate for them, that's what this process is. Thank you again for your time everybody. It was so wonderful to see you! Please like follow, share. Send me your friends! Bye! 

Acts 16:25-40 – Mercy Received, Mercy GivenDecember 6, 2020Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:36)Right Attitude about Yourself9Now He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood and began praying this in regard to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, crooked, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to raise his eyes toward heaven, but was beating his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other one; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. (1 Timothy 1:15)Right Actions towards Others23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. 24And when he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25But since he did not have the means to repay, his master commanded that he be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment be made. 26So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27And the master of that slave felt compassion, and he released him and forgave him the debt. 28But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe!’ 29So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30But he was unwilling, and went and threw him in prison until he would pay back what was owed. 31So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their master all that had happened. 32Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” (Matthew 18:23-35)Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy. (Matthew 5:7)Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:16)

Matthew 18:21-35 The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant 21Then Peter came up and said to him, Lord, how oftenwill my brother sin against me, and I forgive him?As many as seven times?22Jesus said to him,I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wishedto settle accounts with his servants.24When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed himten thousandtalents.25And since he could not pay, his master ordered himto be sold, with his wife andchildren and all that he had, and payment to be made.26So the servantfell on his knees, imploring him, Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.27And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him andforgave him the debt.28But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundreddenarii,and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, Pay what you owe.29So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, Have patience with me, and I will pay you.30He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.31When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.32Then his master summoned him and said to him, You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?34And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,until he should pay all his debt.35So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brotherfrom your heart.

Come on in and check out this interview with the Clicks and Mortar Queen Donnalynn Riley. Donna tells an amazing story of how she went from being the CEO of a retail chain to becoming a Spiritual Coach who is helping entrepreneurs bring ALL of who they are to their businesses. Connect with Donnalynn here at her site: https://www.donnalynnriley.com/ Also, Donnalynn has a 5 Day Masterclass you can sign up for in order: Get Out Of Your Head, Embrace Your Imperfections & Get On Track With Your Business! https://www.donnalynnriley.com/5dc-reg brandon handley00:02All right, 54321 Hey there, spiritual dope. I'm on today with Donna Lynn Riley, who is a licensed spiritual health coach who helps people develop evolve and grow. 00:17The answers they find that their journey, bring them to a new level clarity and emotional adjustment to help them develop their expertise in business systems management and marketing. 00:25And addition to her 12 years as a licensed coach her background is the CEO of a multimillion dollar corporation. 00:31informs her ability to help her clients navigate the inner workings of business systems Operations Management and Marketing so they can successfully put it all together themselves. 00:42I'm going to cut it down because that, that's great. And I'm so excited because, as we're going back and forth a little bit here earlier. This is exactly what this podcast is about. So thank you for joining me today. Donnalynn Riley00:53Oh, it's my pleasure. It's great what you're doing. It's great that you're talking about this. It's really good. brandon handley00:58Thank you. Thank you. So you mentioned that you'd call it a couple of podcasts. So what I always like to say is you know you're here today. We're using this podcast as a vehicle to send somebody out there a message, what is it that they need to hear this coming through you today. Donnalynn Riley01:17Well, I always think people need to know that life can be a lot easier than we're making it. I think that that's a place where 01:29Almost invariably people don't believe that. Right. They just go like, nah, couldn't be that I got to work harder. I gotta do more. I gotta you know think more 01:43I have to put out more effort. It's got a cost more. There's got to be a big, you know, emotional or financial cost to the things that I want in life and really 01:54Life can be so much easier than we make it. And I think that that's the benefit of of this approach of a spiritual practice that supports. 02:06Business life and certainly family life, when I know lots of coaches who do that as well. And, you know, really kind of make it better, just make your life better. brandon handley02:16Yeah, no, absolutely. So the idea is that life doesn't have to be so hard. Donnalynn Riley02:21Really doesn't brandon handley02:23And and also throw out there. I think in the first person that I know that's worked on Broadway. Right. And this is this is a story that you tell 02:30In one of your one of your videos right and helping once you tell people use that story real quick here right now. I love that story about just what you said there. 02:41Do you remember so so I'll take it away. So you were around 19 your brothers like 10 years old or new 02:47Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 02:50Yeah yeah Donnalynn Riley02:50Okay, okay. I gotcha. Sorry about that. 02:54I was like I was there a long time. I don't know. brandon handley02:58Just getting into it right and 02:59How easy how easy sometimes 03:01For you. Donnalynn Riley03:01Yeah. So what I love about that is that, um, so. Okay, so let me let me kind of lay it out here so I'm like 19 years old I 03:11You know, I'm just out the gate. Right. But I'm 10 foot tall and bulletproof because so was everybody when you're 19 brandon handley03:18Right. Yeah, absolutely. Donnalynn Riley03:19And so when you're not very dinged up 03:22You know, you just think like everything's okay and it's going to work out for me and I kind of lived my life like that really clearly I wanted, and I got things I wanted them and they lined up. 03:35So, um, I found myself on on Broadway, which I totally expected right because I wanted it. So, and I didn't know any better, and 03:46And my brother who's 10 years older than I am. He, he knew better. And he is a he is still actually a scenic artist. And so I was a sound designer. He was a scenic artist and 04:01He was working down the block. So I was working on Angels in America, and he was working on City of Angels, which I love that. But there were all these angel references. That's kind of brandon handley04:14Sure, yeah. Donnalynn Riley04:15And. And he said, Oh, let's, um, he was like down the block. And I hadn't seen him in months. It wasn't like, you know, we were spending Sunday night dinners together or something. 04:24And he said, Let's go for lunch. And I was like, yeah, this is great. Yeah, owning the town, you know, in my, in my own head, right. 04:32Sure. And he said, you, you. He's walking me to the to the place to get something to eat and 04:40He said, You just don't have any idea what it costs to get here. You don't have any idea what these people around you have had to do to get where they want to go and in typical sort of 19 year old fashion. I thought, nope. brandon handley04:59Right. Donnalynn Riley04:59I don't care. 05:00Sure, you know, really, for me, I realized that it is a story that's centered around entitlement. Right, so it's not very popular this moment, but 05:10Being able to see yourself. 05:13In the position that you want to be to be able to know that these are things that can happen for you as well as somebody else because 05:24You put the work in and you are talented and you did you know you met the right people and you were in the right place and you took the all the steps to get there. brandon handley05:32Right. Donnalynn Riley05:33There by choice. You don't get to be on Broadway. If you suck. 05:37You do not need. All right. 05:39All right, but they send you home. brandon handley05:42Well, you know, I think. 05:43I think that um I love how you're hitting on entitlement in this insane and in this way because why should it not 05:53Backup people like people bash millennials for kind of having like that kind of entitlement thing. Right. Well, what I admire about that, you know, I think that they would say you got Moxie kid right like kinda back in, but 06:07You know what you want and you're not settling for something that you don't. So is that entitlement, or is that knowing your worth. Donnalynn Riley06:17Right. It's really tricky. It's really tricky and it is a lot about alignment and I've been fortunate to hear you talk about alignment on the podcast previously and 06:28It's a really crucial step in that process. So, 06:34Of course, if we want to get kind of 06:37Cultural about it, then we can we can sort of back it up a little and say, Well, some people have a lot of things that support the belief already in their lives when they're born, and when they're, you know, one and two and three and so it, it becomes 06:55There becomes a divide, but it's a divide in belief. brandon handley07:00100% Donnalynn Riley07:00You know, so it's a it is a really tricky thing. And the important thing for me in the work that I do with people. 07:09Is to whether you've ever experienced that belief or not before is to help you to find that belief because without it is very, very, very difficult to get where you want to go. I, I know people who have done it. It's like they kind of stumbled into their success and that's okay. brandon handley07:25That's true, but it's not very reliable. Donnalynn Riley07:29And so, you know, doing the inner work to create a system of belief for yourself so that 07:36It doesn't sound crazy that you're going to have a successful business or that you're going to get a client that you want to or that you're going to get employees that work out well for you and things like that. I'm doing that inner work makes 07:51All the outer stuff kind of 07:52Line up real quick, like the story I just told where I went from two years or three years I spent in sound design, we're learning from the best in the business. I was already learning from the people who were there, right. 08:06And and and and so I was able to do that very quickly, where a lot of my classmates in college got there 1015 years later, and they worked a lot harder for something because they didn't believe 08:23They didn't know 08:23They thought, oh, I have to go out and do something else first brandon handley08:27Right. We listen, even me today, right now with this podcast. I love it so much. I want to put this, I want to put this 08:36Nice polish on, I want to make it feel so good. I want it to be inviting you know 08:40That, you know, and this isn't wrong to hire somebody in marketing, but I like I really want these pieces I wanted to look so I want it to be so accepted because it's so 08:48meaningful to me right so I'm putting these blocks in 08:53For myself, right. I'm just putting these. Oh, I gotta do this like nothing can happen until this happens and all these other things and and literally that is in my own mind, nobody else's. I mean, nobody nobody else cares. That's just me. Right. 09:07Right. So when you're out there. 09:11And your clientele and and you're working I do they seek you out for one or the other, do you introduce like you know 09:20To the business pressure, like, well, if you just loop in some spirituality, then this might be better for you, like, tell me a little bit how this process of working with you, looks Donnalynn Riley09:30Yeah, so I kind of stand between that space right I stand between entrepreneurs and small business people who are 09:40That's what they do. That's what they've learned. They have a strong background or they have a strong desire but they don't necessarily have any spiritual practice at all. 09:49And I sort of stand between that and the people who are very spiritually open but can't figure out how to turn the computer on right 09:59And rent like can't figure out the details of, like, how do I charge people. And why would they pay me and 10:06These kinds of like nuanced things that, of course, they have a lot of talent and they have a lot of 10:13Value in the world, but so I do kind of stand in between those two spaces, I would say that for the most part, most of the people that I work with are 10:26Are on the business side but are open. brandon handley10:30Okay. 10:31Because okay you can Donnalynn Riley10:32Sort of insert and this is not you know there are a lot of really involved spiritual practices. 10:39And they have value that is beyond what I'm about to express right so this is not to disparage any spiritual practices. I think they all have a lot of value and 10:51But you can in a very short period of time with with not a ton of work right. You don't have to go and study with the monks for 18 years right with with putting a practice into your life. You can attain a lot of result and a lot of ease in your life. 11:12A lot less frustration, a lot of movement forward right so you can start to assess your situation better and access yourself in moments that are stressful better and all of these things lead to better businesses. 11:30But aren't always they're not really taught too often. brandon handley11:35I mean, if you have the capability to kind of calm yourself down in the moment, or just realize what you're about to say or 11:43If you're feeling tense right so what I'm hearing you say is like you're giving them some of these tools to to really kind of ease into themselves and what they're about. Donnalynn Riley11:51Yeah, there's bigger work that we do in order to make lasting change. And that really happens inside one on one trainings that I do or or inside group work that I do with people, but 12:08There are so many little what we would call hacks right there, little, like, oh, if I do this, I feel a little better. 12:16Right. And those are emergency hacks, you know, and they're really useful. They're a great way to get started. I think because 12:26Getting a little relief reminds you that you're probably going to get more relief. If you keep going in that direction. And I think that's a great place to start, particularly for people who are 12:41Who don't have a strong spiritual background but know that like there's something going on in my mind set or those kinds of words are being used a lot recently. Right. brandon handley12:51Right I yeah for sure. For sure. Right. Well, I mean, it's funny because, you know, I think I started off in the mindset space right but now in this 13:01Next level space right where you do this practice, like you said, For doesn't have to be 18 years but you do it repeatedly and you start with like the mindset. You start with the small pieces and 13:13You keep just kind of growing into these other spaces and these other practices that are available to and sooner or later you like I guess they were all right. Donnalynn Riley13:26I love that. Right. brandon handley13:30Right. 13:31Right. So, I mean, I guess you know there's something in those things and what they're saying and what they're doing. 13:37But, you know, so what what led you into this pace yourself. Donnalynn Riley13:43Well, 13:45You know, that's a good question. I, when I look back at my life. I see all these moments like the one that I just described when I'm like very young. 13:54That fit into this kind of way of thinking and this way of being. But I was really pretty unaware of myself and my spirituality until actually my husband got a life threatening disease. 14:15And or problem he got a tumor in his brain cavity. 14:20And he when he was very young. He spent a lot of time in hospitals. And so we went to the first doctor and it was a big emergency and he said, I'm getting a second opinion. And then we went to the next doctor who you know we we finagle their way into the good doctors and all of that and 14:43We went and he described it. And he said, Oh yeah, you have a little time because I'm very good at this. But, you know, you got to get in here in the next month or something. So it was no longer like a huge emergency we have little time. 14:56Sure, and 14:59We were driving home. It was in New York City. We live in Massachusetts. It was a long drive home. We were driving home and my husband said to me. 15:06Yeah, no, I'm not. I'm not doing that I'm not doing that. I don't know what we're going to do, but I think you should find me another solution because I don't, I'm not going to do that. 15:17And that being that you just that just have him for you have been for me. I was like, oh, 15:23Wow, okay. That should be my job. 15:25Okay. Donnalynn Riley15:29No question. 15:31In fairness, I'm sure he was very overwhelmed in that moment. brandon handley15:35Right out Donnalynn Riley15:36Here and and so that was the beginning. That was the kickoff for me to really 15:45Take a look at what is possible. So, and be completely outside the box. Yeah. So once I sort of had to be completely outside the box. Then the possibilities became very, very different. 16:00So it kicked off a series of involvements with people who could help his health and who could do it in very untraditional ways 16:11And also, who required of both of us that we change drastically that we, the concept that we had gotten ourselves into this mess, and that we were going to get ourselves out of this mess was not one that I heard in the doctor's office. 16:31Was and it was really clear and so 16:34And within 16:37A few months, we were both licensed spiritual health coaches, we probably took, I don't know, six months, nine months, something like that for that process and we said, Okay, this is this, we're leaning in because we are not going where that other train was going 16:59Okay, so. So that's really the beginning of when I became a much, much more aware of myself of my thoughts of my 17:09Relationship to the world of my discomfort that I had become just completely accepting of right I had just said, Oh, well that's the way life is, you know and and really be in that awareness, I found new answers. brandon handley17:28So, um, you know what, I guess the one thing is right when you're we're 19 and your earlier years before you 17:37had developed an awareness, you would be, what would we call you know 17:43Was it 17:45Unconscious competence, right, like you and I were you, you were already aligning yourself and you weren't aware that you were doing it. And then once you kind of develop this newfound awareness. 17:56You were able to do this with intention and purpose. Donnalynn Riley18:00That's exactly right. brandon handley18:02Now, so, and also throw out like when you know so I was raised by a hippie mom grew up you know out San Francisco and she was always kicking the word awareness around right when I was growing up, I was like, I'm aware. You see me run into 18:15I've ever run into a thing. 18:18Right, I use it everything outside of me right everything outside of me. I was I was completely aware of. I didn't miss a beat. Yeah didn't miss a beat. But the awareness that I think that you're talking about today is the awareness inside. Is that fair Donnalynn Riley18:32That's exactly right. 18:33That is exactly right and very hard to articulate. You did that quite well that 18:39People, most of the time, feel like they are aware when they start working with me, they're like, Yeah, yeah, I got that part, I need the accurate assessment. Come on, let's get to the good stuff here. 18:49And and that awareness that inner awareness and that ability to kind of be with yourself for periods of time in order to deepen that awareness is very important to the next steps. And so you're absolutely right that people are like, I'm aware. Let's fix my landing page. brandon handley19:16It's all 19:17It's all marketing has nothing to do with what's happening. 19:19Right, right. 19:21Nothing internal happening fixed that. Donnalynn Riley19:23I just had that targeting right we would 19:25All set. So, what what is what is like when when somebody first brandon handley19:29Starts off what's uh what's like one tool that you like to start them off with to 19:35Begin to develop that inner awareness. Donnalynn Riley19:39One of my favorite 19:42Sort of 19:47Let me go back a second here in my thinking. One of my tools that is the easiest for me to sort of give in this kind of a space. 19:59Is actually 20:00A little bit of mirror work. Now some people will know mirror work from different varieties of, you know, mindset work and spiritual work. 20:10The mirror work that that I find is the fastest path to to becoming present 20:22Which is really that first goal is just start being in your body. 20:29Is a piece where you literally just sit with the mirror and look in the mirror in your eyes and say I am here. 20:42Over and over and over. You're sort of calling to yourself. Right. So there's a lot of work that we do after that that involves breath and 20:53Other types of awareness that we can 20:55We can bring in 20:57But 20:59But that's really the the space that I find people kind of are able to bring themselves into the room a little bit and say, oh, OK. I am actually here. Let me give this a shot. I'll be president now. brandon handley21:12Well, I mean, cuz it's, there's still the physical aspect of it right, they're still doing a physical activity, but then they're also acknowledging that it's them right right there in front of them and pulling themselves kind of gather right there. 21:27Right, so I love that. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley21:29And it's deliberate. It's deliberate. So even though a lot of times when people start that process, they don't know. It's deliberate 21:37They, they go like, well, I said the words and then I felt different. I don't know what happened. Right. But in fact it there. There is a deliberateness to it. That is really important that you are impacting you 21:53In that moment. brandon handley21:57Well, that, you know, being deliberate again, you know, intentional, knowing that you're making this choice. I know that I kind of 22:04laughed a little bit about it earlier, but you know, you get to wherever you are today. And I think this is what the spiritual coaches were probably telling you before you guys set the course that 22:13You guys made the decisions to be in that situation right as as a collective even and you you guys when you first heard that you were just like what that's done, nobody's ever said that, you know, kind of that way right to us before 22:29So, I mean, I'm assuming your husband still alive. Donnalynn Riley22:32Oh, yeah. brandon handley22:35Like I hope the story has a good idea. 22:37Because, you know, so 22:39What happens right i mean you go in and he jumped into all this stuff, how, you know, how does it clear up on it never gets checked out again and somehow he still is what happened. Donnalynn Riley22:48No, no. So what happens on that story is that we do the work we do the inner work and we do the emergency inner work and it is kind of emergency at that 23:02Maybe for a year or so as you still feel like what's happening. 23:07And we he gets checked out again. And it's shrinking. 23:12Okay, and we have do have, I will say a spectacular doctor who's actually a doctor. brandon handley23:20Sure, sure. And 23:22It's always handy to have one on standby. Donnalynn Riley23:25WELL KNOW WHO DOES THIS WORK. Oh. brandon handley23:27Okay, that sounds even better yet, Donnalynn Riley23:29He's a trained Western doctor but functions in an Eastern paradigm brandon handley23:35Love it. Donnalynn Riley23:36And so he his toolkit is very, very large. And he honestly I've seen. I've never seen a problem he hasn't been able to impact positively and I have seen him deal with a lot of stuff now. 23:53So, so we had the guidance we had long distance guidance, because he's not right here in our backyard and 24:01We had long distance guidance and we did the work. And that I think is the, the key to that is to sort of have somebody who's ahead of you who can say, yeah, no, no, no. You're going in a direction. You'll be all right. 24:14Sure, sure. And so eventually that tumor went away. brandon handley24:17That's amazing. I love it. And so 24:20You would attribute that almost all to the air work was there like a dietary change. Donnalynn Riley24:26There were other changes. Yeah, absolutely. There were dietary changes, and we think there was 24:35Well, in his particular case, it had a great deal to do with a inability to deal properly with pesticides and with wheat. brandon handley24:46In the Donnalynn Riley24:46On the dietary front. So there was that and 24:54I think there was juicing and there was a lot of things. brandon handley24:57Which are look at 24:59Things. Right. 25:00Body. Sure, absolutely. Absolutely. So, and I think that's, that's interesting. The two right you know so change a die with this practice. I'm the things that are inside of you are the things that are outside of you know that this 25:15Miracle doesn't kind of happen on its own. You gotta, you gotta put it together and you got to maintain it and you know the things that do happen to it. Your body's a miracle. Right. It's amazing. 25:28And it's something like that's happening in this story right you have the ability to change that without getting i don't know i'm guessing he was getting a laser to the back of the head or something right was Donnalynn Riley25:39Wasn't. No, no, they wanted to do full 25:41On surgery. 25:43can address and take goop out 25:47And put goop in from other part. brandon handley25:52Was Donnalynn Riley25:53Unbelievably scary. brandon handley25:55Sure, sure. So, but, I mean, the what's amazing too and your story is that a lot of people would have just gone ahead and gone that route. Right. Donnalynn Riley26:03And they would have tried to talk to your spouse into it. It's their spouse said no. And that I think is something that is I, I have been very fortunate to be able to have that reciprocal relationship with my husband, where if one of us says, No, no, this is how I really feel about the thing 26:20Yeah, even if the other one thinks like, ah, you're just scarred, we should get you over that. 26:26But there is enough space. And this is an important concept in in business in the way we live our lives in general. Right. 26:35Is that there is enough space for us to be scarred and still have full and wonderful lives. It's kind of I think of it a lot about 26:45How you know how certain trees grow and they get these scars in them. And then we cut them up and we make them into coffee tables and we call them beautiful world would 26:54Say. Isn't that spectacular right 26:57Well, that's what we're making yeah in ourselves, we have experienced life and things haven't gone right and we have changed the way that we deal with things F, day after day after day and tried new approaches and had new experiences. 27:14And all of those things are brought into this present moment. And if you allow them then finding a new answer that. That doesn't mean you have to like check out your whole personality becomes somebody else right brandon handley27:32Right, right. Donnalynn Riley27:32No, no, it's okay. You can go spend time in the hospital. 27:36Right show. You don't have to be someone else. You can be you and you can be successful. brandon handley27:41Right. Well, yeah. And in regards to write the 27:46Merging all this together. Right. 27:48But I'll say it. I love Maplewood like the birds. I'm April, right, that's kind of one of the one of the times, you're talking about right and it does become so beautiful. Right. I'm like, I'm over you're sitting right now we're turning ourselves into beautiful maple tables but 28:02I love, I love the story that you're telling about that. I think that that's great. 28:09So let's just I want is, what if some of that wasn't working at any point would didn't feel like, you know, because I don't want to get the impression that 28:19You shouldn't keep a doctor nearby. Right. I mean, because you guys kept the doctor nearby that right live as he was a Western medicine doctor that yes also specialize in this space. Donnalynn Riley28:29I think that the the message that should not be taken from my experience is, go do something extreme like I did right and that the message that should be taken, I hope people take from my experience is be true to yourself and find your own answers. 28:54Because they are there, but they're only there if you calm down long enough to allow them to sort of become revealed. They weren't there in the doctor's office right only the first step, which was no I know what I don't want brandon handley29:10To Donnalynn Riley29:11But there wasn't the step of, like, I know what I do want. Right. Yeah. 29:16Yeah. And in fact, I think that something very important happened there because it was life threatening. Right, it's not 29:23It's not the same as in business where things can go right or wrong and we can find our own alignment. Right. But in this scenario. I think one of the most 29:35impactful things that happened was that my husband had someone to turn to and say, You figure it out because he then could go about the business of lining up with becoming well 29:51He didn't know how, but he had faith. 29:53Yeah, leaf. He said, This person loves me and they're relatively smart. They'll figure it out. brandon handley30:02Well, I think you bring the other one up to which I always love you don't have to know how you don't have to know how you just have to know that that's what you want. That's right. Right. And us where they can just 30:16Move forward in that direction. You know, as if it's not Nestle like I i get i get a little caught up in between, like Law of Attraction with like, you know, 30:28Spirituality space, right. I don't think that they're one the same. I think they're very close, but I don't I don't I don't like to make a sandwich out of, I guess. 30:37Um, Donnalynn Riley30:38But so many ways to look at life you know 30:41It would be a shame to sort of collapse it into only one way 30:46Hundred percent I think that's one of the reasons that the concept of spirituality so appealing to me is that it's big. brandon handley30:53Right, it's yours. Donnalynn Riley30:54I can be a part of this energy and I can be a part of that energy and I don't have to really understand it intellectually. I just have to decide that I'm willing to be a part of that. brandon handley31:05Right. No, I see ideas. Do you even know how you're here. Right. I mean, we don't even understand how we're here to begin with, I mean. So where does that leave us so 31:19Let's talk a little bit more about the outside of the story. Thanks for sharing that. That was Donnalynn Riley31:22My pleasure. Thanks for bringing it up. I, I had 31:26Was I was gonna tell it. brandon handley31:27Yes. I mean you know that, but that's that's kind of how you got into this space. And then, you know, I'm guessing that you kind of incorporated. Now some of this spiritual practice modality. And you were seeing the benefits that it was having in the business space. 31:41So at Donnalynn Riley31:42That time 31:43I was actually the CEO of a corporation. 31:46Okay, so 31:49This was what my life was like, like my every day was going to work as the CEO of a corporation. 31:56Right, so, you know, to, to become to to shift perspective in this massive way and then go back to work the next day and be like, 32:08Oh yeah, I'm gonna do it, just the way I used to do it. 32:11Let them work out. 32:13Right, so there had to be for me a re assessing a real understanding of the business world so that and the end the specifics of my business involvement with people so that I could find peace with the 32:36The 32:38Pathway that we were on brandon handley32:40Okay. Donnalynn Riley32:40So I had many years to do that. I didn't leave that world until 32:452014 and I that the story I told. And when I got my licensure was well 32:55The story I told started in 2007 32:58Okay, so it was putting a time in their 33:02Right to Try concepts out to go to work and to feel differently about things and then see what happens. And now have to take action right away. 33:12To decide that your solution to this relationship problem with an employee with the board of directors with it. Whoever whoever you're dealing with with with the clients themselves. 33:27That you are going to shift that but not by going in and saying something different or doing something different and being like, I am different. Now, now you behave differently, right, which is how people love to approach it. 33:38Sure does not work doesn't work, just 33:42But to really be able to take the time to say okay I am willing to to try everything that I have learned out on myself and to teach it to my staff and to pass it along to people who come and ask for it. 34:02There was a lot of opportunity right now. I'm seeing a lot of people in a day. And there's a lot of opportunity and people will ask you the wildest things 34:10Sure. And so 34:14Yeah, so I had that I had that. And so that was a way for me to really shift the way that I saw business. And what I knew for a fact would work in business. 34:27I had a lot of knowing what didn't work. And some of what did work. I had attained a position and, you know, was filling that position. Well, and all of that. But I really was able to sort of AMP that all up by 34:40By being able to try these things and not know 34:45If they were going to work. 34:47And do them anyway. brandon handley34:49What would be an example of that. Donnalynn Riley34:55Well, there was at one point there was a time when the board of directors was not happy with me. 35:04Man I know, it doesn't mean it doesn't even make sense. 35:06No, it doesn't. It kind of in this world. 35:09And and was not happy with anyone in my 35:15In my purview at all like not like there was no one. And so there was one particular board member who would come in and 35:24Kind of create difficulty. Right. It was a time of change. And I was directing the, the company in a direction that was scary and different and new 35:36And that was not really okay for that board and so that member would come in and and sort of undermine what was happening or stand in the way of what was happening. 35:49And I don't think that was the intention, but I think that it was really to look out for the company and to like really well founded. But really bad idea. And so this went on for 36:05Several weeks several weeks and different members of my staff kept coming to me and saying, what are we going to do this can't go on and I would have a chat and, you know, it still went on and that was the way it was. And I had tried a lot of business solutions for this. 36:23But one day I decided that I was going to just focus on the inner work and I spent all of my off time 36:34Doing that inner work and it was a process it. A lot of times people like me to sort of distill it down into one thing that I did. And certainly, I could name some things that you can do in that scenario but 36:48Really, the important thing was that I was no longer tied to the outcome based on yesterday. 36:56So that we had been through it right. This has been going on for weeks, we had tried everything we know what didn't work. We know. No, no. Right. But we didn't really we didn't because today is a new day. 37:09And this is a new moment. 37:11Right. And so once that happened once there was a disassociation with the past, then 37:19The process of becoming holy present and allowing the other people to become wholly present other this person in particular. 37:29Then the, the issues that are around, it can be dealt with and the attitude can shift. And there can no longer be. It doesn't have to be an aggressive situation, which is what had developed 37:41Right. But once that all dissipates. Then you can have the real conversations about the work that really should be being done in those in that scenario. 37:52Right, I should be held accountable for that in my position and that person should be able to say what they have to say. But there was no space for 38:00Any of that. 38:02And to east and east and east and about two weeks later, one of the gentlemen that work for me came to me and said, What did you do 38:13What did you do 38:14Well you fixed it for you, but you didn't fix it for me. 38:19And I said, Well, I could teach you what it was like, why can't you just fix it. brandon handley38:26That's funny. That's funny. So one of the things that you kind of, you start out there to with the is not having to take action right away, right, because we feel that 38:36We need to take this action immediately to for some type of corrective measure like 38:42Where the like where the savior of whatever is happening, they're like, well, there's no we got to fix this. Right. But you're saying though, you just kind of step back. Yeah. But some of the things just play out on their own and right Donnalynn Riley38:55Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. There's actually a three step process that I teach that 39:02Is a called the triple a method of transformation and that three step process is really important. Some people get one step. 39:12Some people get two steps, but rarely do we hear people talk about the third, the middle step right 39:18Right. So the first step in that is awareness and we've talked a lot about that today, which is 39:23Wonderful. And the third step in that is the action stage right the adaptation. What are you going to do, usually people kind of jump from one to the other and they go, they go like, yes, I'm aware there's a problem. Now I have a solution. 39:38And it's the middle step that is the most important and that really isn't an accurate assessment, you can't make an accurate assessment, unless you're in a receiving mode you're in a 39:58Listening period. A watching period a learning period right it's you can't assess something. If you think you know everything about it already. 40:09So you have to do the exploration that is that middle stage that's between Awareness. Awareness of yourself awareness of your situation and then 40:21Learning so that you can be accurate in your assessment. And that's, I think, really where most of the time it all falls apart is that the assessment is not accurate. 40:33Hmm. And so that's how you jump from the one step to the other step is that you go like now I got this move on. 40:43But you don't know yet. But there's like a guy behind the curtain run and my thing. You know what I mean. 40:48Sure. 40:49So that's brandon handley40:51That's more than you know awareness of your thought process awareness of the, you know, conscious choices awareness of doing these things. 41:00With purpose and intention, but also, you know, I like how you bring up this you know accurate assessment piece because it was just yesterday as matter of fact I sat down with a transformational coach and 41:14It was what you're saying here is you can assess, but kind of like a and I feel like this is what I had done right I assess the situation quickly. 41:24And felt that was good enough. Right. And then he goes, Well, I think, actually, you need to go one more layer deeper. Yeah. And he took me one more layer deeper. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, Donnalynn Riley41:35Totally different answer to. Right. brandon handley41:37Well, totally different answer. Totally different feeling totally different space in place and you know 41:44Therefore, ergo my assessment initially was not accurate. Yeah, that's right. Right. 41:53And you know we're here. We keep learning and this, this is even has to do with just, you know, if you're working with a client, they feel like they know who they are. All right. And you've got it you what you're doing is you're helping them to slow down and 42:07Truly learn who they really are. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley42:09That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think that was true for me. So I think that one of the things that makes it easier for me to 42:18To talk to people is that I've stood someplace. Very, very similar to where they're standing and so that feeling like I know especially having some early success. 42:30Right, sure. No, I do. No. 42:33No, I did it. I know how to do it. No, no, actually you don't 42:39Because you did it, but you didn't know how you did it. 42:41Yeah, you did it, but you can't repeat it, and 42:46Source, all of that. brandon handley42:48Sure, yeah. 42:50But it's looking those steps and and and i think that we've been fortunate, right, like a laughed at the beginning how there's, you know, 43:00There's pathways for us to take you know that the plenty of people have done this before us. We're not the first people to show up like I got this. 43:08Follow me like there's no whole whole society is built on this and 43:13We're lucky that we've got that available to us right that framework, the possibility to kind of 43:18Go to even you right or you know your spiritual coaches to run them in the first time, like there's a whole nother way. 43:25And it fits into this and, oh, I can get the same results by but but by doing it this way instead of this other brash like I'm going to take the bull by the horns and crush everybody mentality. Right. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley43:40Yeah, I, I, actually, when I first kind of got that there was another way and that it was actually more effective I so I had been into herbs, my whole life where I felt like I i liked spices in my food, and I 43:54I knew some of the properties of things. And I would you know give myself cold medicine by eating the garlic or whatever it was. Right, sure, and and 44:03I got that there was, I knew about herbs and spices that there were in different parts of the world, they would do the same things, but be totally different plans. 44:13And I was like, 44:14Oh, I don't really get why that's true, that you can take turmeric from India and you can take, you know, yarrow from North America and you're going to get a similar thing and happening for you. 44:29And I, I knew that it was possible, but I couldn't make any sense of it until we got to this concept, this concept of being present and being aware 44:44And showing up in a new way and then taking action. Then I got, oh, there are just so many ways, right. I could have said 10 different things in that moment. 44:57And gotten a really similar response to that, or maybe my relationship problem, like I've, I've worked with people a lot with 45:07business relationships where they're particularly with employees, where they're not getting the results they want with the employees and they feel like it's the employees problem. 45:18And that works. The first or second or third employee, but it does not work after that. 45:23To face a few things. 45:26And you can try all the techniques you want, right, there's a lot of management techniques and those i'm sure can be effective in under certain circumstances. 45:37But really when you're willing to do that work inside you and the technique, doesn't matter anymore because 45:45The result can happen regardless of the technique that you're using, sort of like that plant it's planted in a, you know, different sides of the earth, but it's helping your body because the world is meant to support us for sure that's what that's what is here for brandon handley46:01At least from our perspective. Hundred percent hundred percent Donnalynn Riley46:05Plant feels like it's there for them. brandon handley46:08But what I just I just saw like you know I think somebody talk. I think I was listening to Wayne Dyer right and he's talking about like if you lift the seeds or whatever and you plant them that they take in that your DNA, and they grow to to you. 46:21Yeah, so 46:22So I'll always always something interesting. 46:26Always something interesting. Geez, you said something there that I wanted to hit on but uh what you know. 46:34So what are some. What are some that's what's gonna say, so you're, you know, the techniques become 46:42More like a again a vehicle for what's inside of you, right, and that's your focal point, you're like, All right, you know, 46:49It's the techniques, not working. It's because I look I take to jujitsu right and oftentimes the, the deal is, I'm using a technique, but I'm also trying to put all this force power behind like 47:04Running grown in 47:06But it's when I relax and just simply apply the technique. 47:11That it works. I'm like, why, what this doesn't make any sense. Right. So again, it sounds like you know if you do the inner work and you figure out kind of what's in you just you just kind of let that out, Masha, but you focus it gently on the technique, it works. Donnalynn Riley47:23Yeah, we're back where we were when we started right life can be a lot easier than we make it brandon handley47:30And and so you know what what are 47:34What are some of the other things that you're finding with your clients right. How are they, what's their reception been to their new selves. Donnalynn Riley47:44Reception to their new cells. Fantastic question. 47:48Wow. I like I'm pretty good. brandon handley47:54Sure. Donnalynn Riley47:55You know, it feels a lot better to be not frustrated and not irritated and have a new way to accept your imperfections and to say I can be whole and I can show up and I can shift my life in these ways where I get the result that I want and still be may brandon handley48:18Not have to Donnalynn Riley48:19Turn into somebody else. I mean, I think these are the kinds of things that a lot of times people really feel like, all right, I want to go there. So I'll just be someone else for a while. 48:33They 48:34Got themselves off from themselves, right. brandon handley48:36So, Donnalynn Riley48:37And this is how people end up to be older and more bitter. 48:43And then eventually at some point they say I'm not doing that anymore. And sometimes that's at retirement age sometimes that's a lot earlier. 48:52You're really lucky if you don't have a lot of patience for that kind of thing in your life. brandon handley48:57Well, you know, you know, recently, my wife, she she hit that point right she just said this is enough. This is too much and and she's now you know we come from two different types of backgrounds. Right. 49:08Where she came from, you know, the you work hard, you get a job you keep that job for as long as you can, it's safe. It's good. They watch out for you. 49:16But at what cost, right, I think you'd mentioned that to like what costs like you're the costs. 49:22Is you your life, your, your whole, you know, they call it grind it out for a reason. You're losing each day to the grind. So I don't want to keep you too long, but this has been, I've had a lot of fun with this conversation. 49:35A lot of fun with this conversation. 49:37Where, where should and we did talk about you do have something coming up. I want to make sure people know that you've got this, you've got this challenge come out to us talk on that. Donnalynn Riley49:45You. I do. I have a five day 49:49Workshop, or I'm 49:53Just loving the words just scramble away from you. brandon handley49:56Absolutely, it says all day every day. 49:59To Donnalynn Riley49:59Day challenge coming up and it, it is called get out of your head. Embrace your imperfections and get on track with your business. 50:10And so that's what we're going to do for five days, we're going to go through the process and we're going to really delve into that process. We talked a little bit more 50:19Earlier about the AAA method of transformation and get to apply some of that and really see what kind of 50:29changes we can make in such a short period of time for lots and lots of people to to quiet the noise to to find that space that we've been talking about and to still be wholly yourself to really embrace that you're okay, as Your imperfections and then apply that process. 50:51It's a very interesting process, I think. 50:53It will be really great to see how everybody does. brandon handley50:56That's awesome. So what type of people should be attending this event. Donnalynn Riley51:00Anyone who's interested in business. 51:05Who is open. Yeah. 51:07Yeah, so this is this work is not easy. It's not like, you know, kind of, you were talking about this with talking about your wife's background and a lot of people come from a background where it's kind of supposed to be hard. And when life is not fun. They say, what is it they say they say brandon handley51:27Oh my lemonade. 51:31Life's not supposed to be fair, I don't know. Donnalynn Riley51:33Yeah, all that brandon handley51:34All that stuff. Donnalynn Riley51:35So what, like, I get that. And there are people who need that kind of structure in their life, and they're not ready to let go of that that's okay with me. brandon handley51:43Yeah. Donnalynn Riley51:43Don't come to mind. 51:47But anyone everyone. I hope Pro has a business involvement writing particularly I work for the most part with entrepreneurs. 51:57So you're the driver of your business boat, it makes it much easier. And who wants to work on something and knows that the answer is somewhere in them might they're willing to do some work for it. That is personal. That is development personal development work. 52:20And and really you show up with willingness and I'd be happy to guide you all the way through the process that would be great. brandon handley52:30Awesome and listen. 52:32You know, you've had you been a successful CEO, you started off successful businesses you sold businesses. 52:41And, you know, for anybody, which website. Again, Donald in Donnalynn Riley52:46Donnellan Riley calm. brandon handley52:48Down. So head over to the site shine house or for videos yourself, you will be able to see 52:53That she knows what she's talking about. So I think that that's really exciting. And, you know, we didn't dig too deep into the business aspects of today. We just had a really great. I felt like conversation. 53:03But you clearly know you know what it is that you're doing. You've done the work you contains to do the work. And you know what you're putting out. I think there's no top notch really really quality stuff. Donnalynn Riley53:13Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to be here and to get to talk about this topic in such depth. So that's really nice. It's great that you're talking about this in a in a really deep way this sort of spirituality and business and in that space. brandon handley53:28You know what, you got to be able to like you keep saying, and that's what it means to bring all of who you are right, they're not two separate things. If you keep your spiritual self over here and your material or reality over here, you're missing out on the one, two punch you know 53:44You really you've really got the opportunity to kind of blend you're you're working at 50% of capacity. Yeah, right. So he can 53:51You know blend those two which which I know you can teach how to do what you get to bring to your workplace or wherever you decide to show up after you learn about who you are. It's just, it's that much more powerful. Yeah. Donnalynn Riley54:04It really is. brandon handley54:05Yeah. Hundred percent. Thanks again. Donnalynn Riley00:59:18Thank you.

To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/340/29So, we've looked at the coupling of the 'Never-Trumpers' with the Religious Political Left, but what of the mainstream media the Left? Plus, we'll look at the toll COVID-19 and the economic fallout is having on Americans. and next we'll see the Burning Man adherents welcoming Black Lives Matter. How does that work, and what can it tell us about both 'movements'?

Acts 19:2141 (ESV) A Riot at Ephesus 21Now after these events Paul resolved in the Spirit to pass through Macedonia and Achaia and go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome. 22And having sent into Macedonia two of his helpers, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while. 23About that time there arose no little disturbance concerning the Way. 24For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen. 25These he gathered together, with the workmen in similar trades, and said, Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. 26And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. 27And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship. 28When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, Great is Artemis of the Ephesians! 29So the city was filled with the confusion, and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Pauls companions in travel. 30But when Paul wished to go in among the crowd, the disciples would not let him. 31And even some of the Asiarchs, who were friends of his, sent to him and were urging him not to venture into the theater. 32Now some cried out one thing, some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander, motioning with his hand, wanted to make a defense to the crowd. 34But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all cried out with one voice, Great is Artemis of the Ephesians! 35And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, Men of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky? 36Seeing then that these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash. 37For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess. 38If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against anyone, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39But if you seek anything further, it shall be settled in the regular assembly. 40For we really are in danger of being charged with rioting today, since there is no cause that we can give to justify this commotion. 41And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly.

One of nine children, Dr. Anthony (Tony) Brennan grew up in a small town in upstate New York. He invented a way to inhibit bacterial growth through plastic sheets that are comprised of millions of microscopic features arranged in a diamond pattern – much like shark skin. A voracious reader, Tony wanted to be an astronaut growing up, but had poor eyesight. His inspiration for Sharklet Technologies was the US Navy, which in 1999 asked him to figure out a way to keep barnacles from growing on its ships. *This episode was originally released on September 25, 2018.* TRANSCRIPT: Intro: 0:01Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to Radio Cade, a podcast from the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention in Gainesville, Florida. The museum is named after James Robert Cade, who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. Richard Miles: 0:20We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them. We’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work, and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Richard Miles: 0:41This morning I have as my guest, Tony Brennan, who is the founder of Sharklet Technologies, which as the name implies, has something to do with sharks. So he’s a good guest. Welcome Tony. Tony Brennan: 0:51Thank you. It’s my pleasure to be here today. Richard Miles: 0:54So before we talk about Sharklet, I always like to start asking the guest a little bit about their background. So if you could share with us where were you born, what were you like as a kid? What was your family like? How did you end up pre-academic days, so to speak. Tony Brennan: 1:10So it’s always interesting to ask a Brennan a question like that because I’m one of nine. My father was one of ten. So there’s a lot of us and we have a lot to tell, but uh, just to keep it reasonably short… Richard Miles: 1:23Maybe I should ask for some ID to make sure you’re really the Tony Brennan I had mind right? Tony Brennan: 1:27Oh, there’s no doubt about it. Anybody listening will recognize it right away. So I’m one of nine. I was the sixth child. I was born in Saranac Lake, New York, which is famous for being the first town formed in the adirondack mountains. It’s really the home for the Winter Olympics. The mountain lake placid is just outside of Saranac Lake. Whiteface is actually closer to Saranac where the Olympics were held twice. Both times they had to haul snow in. The town I grew up in was a small hamlet, natural bridge, New York, and it’s about 30 miles north east of Watertown, New York, which is 60 miles north of Syracuse, New York, which is right in the middle of the state. So we’re very close to Canada and it was a great place to grow up because it was a town of 600. We had 11 people and so we were predominant in the town and we could do whatever we wanted and so it gave an early opportunity for me to explore. Richard Miles: 2:29So the early entrepreneurial setting here, so… Tony Brennan: 2:32Very early. Richard Miles: 2:33And Tony, I do believe you are the first guest on the show that has a connection to Napoleon Bonaparte. Maybe you could explain that. Tony Brennan: 2:40Yeah, that is such a fascinating story. We always heard this story that was given. There’s natural bridge caverns in natural bridge in New York and they always gave a tour. It’s a natural bridge formed by the Indian river that goes under through the limestone. So they actually give boat tours and they always told this story about French jewels that were buried there somewhere in the caverns. And we always thought it was just a story. So lately historians have confirmed that Joseph Bonaparte who was king of Spain actually bought land in natural bridge and built a house there. And there was a lake very close to us that’s called Lake Bonaparte. And so the connection is real. The house burned in 1932, I think it was. It was a wooden house and it was actually built to be a summer home for the king, but it also was one of the sites that Napoleon was supposed to be exiled to. Richard Miles: 3:42Really? Tony Brennan: 3:43Yes. So we’re very close to Canada and northern New York and that area was largely French populated and luray was a cousin of Bonaparte, owned all the land in that area are currently. Our Fort Drum is on the lorain state and the luray mansion is a guest house on the camp, so it’s still there. It’s a couple hundred years old. Richard Miles: 4:05Did Joseph Bonaparte ever visit that house? Tony Brennan: 4:07Joseph Bonaparte visited quite often they said. Richard Miles: 4:11Wow, okay. So if Napoleon had visited history might have turned out a little bit differently. Um, and so as a kid you were a big reader, read quite a bit. What were your favorite types of books? Are your favorite books when you were… Tony Brennan: 4:28Well as, as one of nine, I think it’s interesting to think back about what I thought was going on and it was always from my perspective, looking outward and as my other siblings tell me my favorite books were the Compton Encyclopedias that my father got when I was in fourth grade, I think. And uh, I enjoyed reading that cover to cover front to back. But my favorite book was the story autobiography by Benjamin Franklin. He was a fascinating guy. Fascinating man. Richard Miles: 5:00You were also interested in things like space travel and sputnik and so on. Tony Brennan: 5:04I wanted to be an astronaut from day one. I used to marvel at the moon walking along and for some reason as a child, I remember we got very large moons and it was because we were so far north, we actually did and you just could see so much detail and I always thought that would be the best thing to travel to the moon, but never had good enough eye sight to become a pilot and you had to be a pilot back then to be an astronaut. So that didn’t work out. Richard Miles: 5:33So instead of the moon and astronauts, instead you’re dealing with sharks. So somewhere your career took a left or a right turn. Tell us about Sharklet technology. What is it? Why is it called Sharklet? How does it work? And who’s using it? Tony Brennan: 5:48First of all, the reason for the sharks is that the US navy funded my research back in 1999, I think was when the white paper was submitted. And they funded my research at the very beginning when I just had this crazy idea that if I could make a surface that was unstable, and at the time I was thinking of quicksand. So if I made something that was so soft that organisms couldn’t settle on, it might have a chance. And the navy actually funded me. I don’t… to this day, I can’t believe they did it, but if they hadn’t, this wouldn’t have happened. Richard Miles: 6:26That and like $600 toilet seats. Right? So… Tony Brennan: 6:30I give him credit. Let’s not go down that path because I understand all the difficulties of specifying materials to fit on an aircraft carrier or something. Right? So sharklet technologies came about because I was doing research to stop organisms from landing on the side of the ship. Richard Miles: 6:47And just to clarify, you are a material science professor or… Tony Brennan: 6:51Yes. I am a professor of material science and engineering. I started out with a chemistry degree because I was seriously thinking about becoming an MD, but at some point, I decided that wasn’t in my life to be an MD. I give those guys a lot of credit. I don’t have the proper traits. So I joke often that I have a PhD, not an MS because I have no patience and I think part of being an entrepreneur you can’t have a lot of patients. Richard Miles: 7:19So when the navy came to you with this request, presumably you knew what you were doing and that’s why the navy came to you and asked… Tony Brennan: 7:26Well yeah. So they had funded indirectly my research during my PhD and so the man who funded me knew me from there and so I guess he was taking a little gamble with me, but he felt I was qualified and so I’d worked in dental biomaterials, to begin with, and that’s all about organism sticking to composites that are used to repair teeth or bond to teeth, and that’s what started my thinking. So going on, I just was trying to keep barnacles off the side of the ship when I started looking at sharks. Richard Miles: 7:59And that’s a huge problem for the navy, right? Tony Brennan: 8:01That’s a massive problem for the world. Ninety percent of all of our goods are shipped over the oceans and every ship moving from the US to Asia, from Asia to Antarctica to Australia, all around the world. Every shIp goes into a port and sits there and the barnacles of that port are landing or attaching to the ship. The ship leaves carries those barnacles to another port and thus we get what’s called an invasive species. And a good example is the zebra mollusk. Think everybody’s heard of that. The zebra mollusk has been populated from a ship into the great lakes and up where I grew up. So that’s the number one problem. Number two is, of course the economic, and right now we know green gas. So ships carrying all that weight, extra weight and drag on their increases the amount of cost of fuel plus for the navy, it increased the cost of cleaning them and the cost are estimated somewhere around a half a billion dollars a year extra. Richard Miles: 9:05So they were tryIng to find a, some sort of surface that mollusks or other sea creatures wouldn’t attach to and you came up with an idea and apparently your first try didn’t go so well. Tony Brennan: 9:20That’s an understatement. So I started out looking at what had been done in this area as far as trying to prevent water from wetting, a surface and organisms. And they tried Teflon early on. It was a miserable failure. They loved it because Teflon is hard. So I was going for the soft surface and um, I decided to be an engineer about it. So I took everything that they’d done with sandpaper and rough surfaces like that. And I said, let’s do it systematically and I started out. The first samples I put in the ocean, especially in Hawaii, were a terrible, terrible failure. And that’s how I got thinking about sharks. Richard Miles: 10:05So you were talking earlier about a particular moment in which you had, I guess some observers from the navy watching you or sort of testing out and tell us a little bit about that experience. It sounds a little bit dramatic. Tony Brennan: 10:18Again, I need to emphasize what the navy is trying to do. They’re trying to find a coating that will be on the side of their ship for 10 to 12 years and they don’t want it releasing anything to the environment. They don’t want to killing anything. They just want it to be neutral in the environment. So it’s very difficult. But we had a whole group of people because there was an international conference in Hawaii. We decided to piggyback the navy meeting at the same time so we had all the people from the navy, had other researchers that were there, probably 10 or 12 people. We’re on a raft next to a dock where aIrcraft carriers doc, I mean it’s three or four ladders down from the top of that to the water level. It’s just so big. It’s amazing. And we were down there pulling out my panels. They looked horrible and some guy from one of the labs I won’t say where, and he made a wise crack about jesus too bad in the navy’s not paying you to get things to stick because you did a good job here. So that started my brain going… Richard Miles: 11:20Right. Probably still wake up dreaming about that. Tony Brennan: 11:24I still laugh about it because It got me mad and I was looking off because I just was trying to keep myself cool. And so I was looking and a nuclear sub was leaving and seemed like it was next to me, but it was a long ways away and I could see the green algae is stuck on the hall and I was really upset. I said we’re supposed to be stopping that and we’re not doing a very good job. Richard Miles: 11:47So the sub is pulling out. It’s got algae and then you figured out something about that that led to sharks? Tony Brennan: 11:53I just said it looked like a big whale and then I said, come to think of it whales are fouled and they are. They’ve got barnacles all over them, they got sponge everything. And then I started going down through all the animals in the ocean and everybody had a reason why thIs one wouldn’t work and why they were clean or dirty or whatever. Manatees, turtles, even blue muscles and red muscles. The blue mussels are clean. The red muscles foul and they’re cousins but they have striations on their back which was very similar to the striations I was testing but a different size. So as I kept going, I brought up sharks and everybody goes, no, they’re fast moving. And I said, not the little guys you get to pet in an aquarium. And I said, what’s different? And a friend of mine offered to catch one for me. He said he catches him all the time and his research and releases them. So that started it. Richard Miles: 12:44So eventually this led you to the shark. You’ve figured out there’s something about the shark skin that repelled these sorts of organisms. And what next did you go back to the navy and go, “I’ve solved your problem?” Tony Brennan: 12:57No, but interestingly, the University of Florida is the world repository for everything about sharks. So we have every kind of sharkskin you can imagine. There were fine, even prehistoric. We have bones, teeth, well it’s not bones it’s cartilage, their skeletal structure. We have everything. And so when I came back and started looking, I looked at the sharks and lo and behold, interestingly there’s scales, called denticles, teeth like structures. So I felt like I was back home in the dental field and looking at it, I thought it was very close to one of my models that I drafted up for figuring out how to create roughness. So I hired a young kid to come into my lab and try to draw it on a computer aided design system and uh, he wasn’t successful and I got rid of him. He’s now my son in law and father of my grandchildren. I didn’t know at the time, but he’s one of the best engineers. I’ve ever known, but he was right. I couldn’t do what I initially wanted to do, but I put another student on it who ended up being my phd student and we just flattened it out and when we did that, we ended up with the sharklet design and the first time we tested it against that green algae that was on the submarine it had an 85 percent inhibition, So 85 percent of the cells that usually get on the surface weren’t there, and that’s the first ever anybody had ever been able to inhibit those cells. Richard Miles: 14:24So, Tony, I remember you telling me this story a few years ago and I thought, okay great, you must have made a lot of money. Go back to the navy and tell them you’ve got this great technology that keeps their ships and subs clean and you looked at me patiently and explained to me the other applications of the technology that actually could be more exciting. So let’s fast forward to sharklet technologies. Who are your main customers? And, I guess what is the most exciting application of the technology that you think of? Tony Brennan: 14:51Well, let me just finish off one little case. The reason I can’t use it on the side of a ship right now is because the green spores are so small and the barnacles separately are so large and there is a size dependence of their ability to respond to the sharklet so we literally have to work more on the chemistry and that’s what we’re doing now in our lab. But sharklet technologies was because of that test in Hawaii. There’s a tube born there that needs bacteria and every time I sent it to the University of Hawaii to be tested, they said, oh, it’s not working. We got this problem, this problem, this problem. We found out by accident really that there were no bacteria on the sharklet. And that’s where sharklet technologies comes from. So we are excited now about the fact that we have a urinary catheter that has been tested in a very small number of people in europe and it showed that it did keep the bacteria off the urinary catheter, which is the biggest problem we have in hospital acquired infections. It’s terrible. And the patients said it was much more comfortable than a conventional one, which it is. Has lower friction so it goes in and out easier. So it’s more comfortable that way. The doctors and nurses loved it and it did reduce the bacteria. And it’s interesting. It reduced the bacteria and the patient just like in the lab. Richard Miles: 16:15So that’s fascinating. So you set out to solve a problem for the US navy on big ships and you end up with catheters eventually that sound like they’re easier, safer, more resistant to bacteria, which is a massive problem as you said. Tony Brennan: 16:30It is. It is a huge problem. We also have work in developing an endotracheal tube and some of the more interesting things that most people will see is we’re working on cloth for chairs and public places and we’ve been able to show a significant reduction in bacteria transfer from one person to the next via that see. A lot of people worried about that going into trains and buses and airplanes. So we’re producing cloth with the sharklet pattern. But probably the most exciting one for me is going to be the fact that my initial invention was bioadhesion, not inhibiting. So bioadhesion lets me talk about inhibition and enhancement. That means I can stop cells from going on or I can encourage them to land on the surface. Richard Miles: 17:21Got it. Okay. Tell us, I guess a little bit about sharklet itself. We find it’s a common story. Researchers decide to commercialize their technology. They form a company and then they find it’s not like the academic world, that the entrepreneurial / business world is substantially different. Tell us about some of the challenges of getting the company going and tell us about a good week or a bad week. What were some of the best successes you’ve had and then what were some the surprises or failures or setbacks that you’ve had, if any? Tony Brennan: 17:52So I’m unusual maybe because I did ten years of industrial work in the biomedical field before I got my phd. Richard Miles: 18:01Okay. So you knew a little bit about this beforehand. Tony Brennan: 18:04I knew a lot about how to run a business and I also… this is my fourth business that I’ve started. Some of them were young as a child in natural bridge, but I’ve had a lot of businesses. Richard Miles: 18:15Which is somewhat unusual I have to say for some in the academic field to have had that business experience prior. Tony Brennan: 18:22It is, but I think it’s a benefit for my students to be able to give them real life examples and as an example, coming back to your question, the first biggest concern that we had was being able to manufacture sharklet. So we have been pushing technology and manufacturing to the point where we now have to have new inventions and we just had one issued last monday of this week actually. So I got another invention on how to manufacture it. That’s probably been our biggest challenge… effectively manufacturing in a cost effective manner. Richard Miles: 18:58I see. So it’s not enough to develop the technology and the principal in the lab. You’ve got to really be able to make this so. Tony Brennan: 19:03You do. Richard Miles: 19:04Industrial clients can demand it and order. Tony Brennan: 19:07Right. So some of the successes are going to be, first of all, the urinary catheter. That, to me, is a huge success, but it’s a very slow process to get it through the FDA and everything and so that’s something I knew about, but it’s still discouraging the time it takes to get it through the system. The other things that happen are money. Money is always a problem when you’re starting a company. So we started out with three people committing for a million dollars. Our next money was $500,000 and that’s over about a year and a half period. Well that sounds like a lot of money until you start putting people in materials and buildings together. That money goes fast. So we were lucky. We had hired great people to work on writing grants to the federal government and we got funded by the NIH, National Institute of Health, small business innovation research program, which is a phenomenal program started by Reagan. For those of you who may be listening, that was a very insightful program that they created and it gave us a lot of money to create these products and develop them. And we have been a success story for NIH because our products are actually going to market. Richard Miles: 20:19I’m sure Tony, given your background, you probably get asked a lot for advice, career advice and so on. When you have, not necessarily researchers, but probably researchers or people who have developed a good idea, said that the idea is sound and they want to try to get that idea into the marketplace. So maybe they’re thinking of starting a company or trying to attract investment. What sort of words of wisdom do you or would you give to somebody like that starting out, say on there under journey. Tony Brennan: 20:46Be committed. Don’t take no for an answer, but be intelligent enough to listen and listening to people who understand markets. That’s probably the biggest issue. You’ve got to have an existing market. Don’t create a market. It’s too big of a push and we still struggle with that somewhat in terms of trying to convince people or get them to understand what it means to inhibit bacteria on a car seat as an example. Um, doctors and hospItals see it right away. They understand it’s not a problem, but commitment, listening and push, push through. Richard Miles: 21:22Push through. It’s a great way to end the program. Thanks very much, Tony, for being with us and look forward to seeing you continue to succeed. Tony Brennan: 21:29Thank you very much. I appreciate the invitation. Outro: 21:37Radio Cade would like to thank the following people for their help and support. Liz Gist of the Cade Museum for coordinating Inventor Interviews. Bob McPeak of heartwood soundstage and downtown Gainesville, Florida for recording, editing, and production of the podcasts and music theme. Tracy Columns for the composition and performance of the Radio Cade theme song featuring violinist Jacob Lawson. And special thanks to the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida.

It’s another Time Travel episode of the EdTechLoop Podcast as we dive back in the Feed with Marty McFly’s DeLorean to Episode 36 Failing to Fail with Danelle Brostrom where we stop trying to be perfect, but endeavour to be useful. And if you find the pod useful, take a moment and subscribe and give us a rating on your app of choice and as always thanks for listening and inspiring!  Danelle 0:26We’re recording Right? Danelle 0:32think the word that I want to say. Larry 0:36I'm so confident I will not fail that I’m doing everything in sharpie. Larry 0:51It’s Episode 36 of the TCAPSLoop weekly podcast. My name is Larry Burden, and failing to be nominated for the Best ed tech podcast Grammy again this year. It's Danelle 1:04Danielle Brostrom  Larry 1:05see I like that, like that. You held it in. Larry 1:08I'm happy to be back in our usual day.  DanelleI know it's Tuesday LarryTuesday is podcast day.  DanelleAll right. Nice.  LarryFeeling into it, very into today. So um, how's it going?  DanelleIt's going great.  LarryAnything new, anything exciting happening in your life? anything anything exciting? Danelle 1:24Well, today, we are starting the Launchpad, which is Traverse Heights maker space. So we're going to get some kids in there who have earned it and kind of see what they gravitate towards. My favorite part about maker spaces is getting in there and getting started. And then having the kids come in and say things like, why don't you have more Legos? Or, you really can use more duct tape? And then we go, oh, yeah, we need to get those things for the maker space. So I'm excited to get in, get kids in there, and hear their thoughts about what we're missing and what we need so we can get moving and grooving with some maker space stuff. Larry 1:56Get their minds goin’.  DanelleYeah, exactly.  LarrySo You know, our topic today is, is the failure of not failing.  DanelleYeah.  LarryAnd I just want to come clean on something. So this month, I had been attempting to not do caffeine, or coffee. I, I failed this weekend.  DanelleThat's Okay.  LarryAnd it was fabulous. It was absolutely fabulous. Moving on from that moment of Zen, it is that time. So get into your lotus position, clear your mind. Larry 2:28We are supposed to learn from our mistakes. But how can we learn If We are not allowed to make them? Danelle 2:36Perfect moment of zen for today, Larry. Larry 2:41So let's get our knives our forks and cut into the meat of the show. Failing. Why is it so important? Danelle 2:50This is such a hard topic. I hate failure. I hate failure. I, I was the kid that would write my homework in pen and get to the end and make a mistake. And instead of getting white out or scribbling it or just continuing I would get a brand new piece of paper and re copy the entire thing again. It really and I I struggle with this. And I think educators as a whole, we struggle with this because the stakes are so big. You know, the kids in your class, they have one shot at second grade, they have one shot at sixth grade. You have all of these pressures on you from you know, you don't want to let down your administrator. You don't want to let down those parents, you don't want to let down the community. You you've got all this state requirements and state testing and evaluations and just, there's so much on you that it's so scary to step outside the box. And it's so scary to take that that inch of a step because oh my gosh, what if I fail? What iF I mess things up? What if this is not the right move? And I don't know if other professions have this. But man, it is so scary for educators. Larry 4:10I think it's true in every profession, I think, you know, we've been talking about, or at least in education, community, failure, and allowing our students to fail and learning from our mistakes has been a topic that we've been kind of pushing, I guess, in education for a while now. I don't want to say we pay lip service to it. But I don't think we grasp how ingrained The, the structures are in place to not allow our kids to fail or to fight against that concept. And I think it's true. I was we were talking before the show, I had done a you know, I was attempting to do some research for this. And I did the TED Talk deep dive. And the topics in regards to failure are across the board, from from business, to technology to education, everybody's saying the same thing. They're all saying, we need to allow time for failure, we need to embrace failure. And they all kind of also say the same thing. But everything is working against us. So you know, keep, I guess, keep going. My question is why is it so important? Why are we saying this is something that we that we need to, you know, really shift the paradigm of how we educate, you know, getting away from that winning and being perfect to let's, let's embrace the the mistake. Danelle 5:37I think all the research is showing us that embracing the mistake is what our kids need. And it's how we move forward in the society. I definitely would point to the Carol Dweck, “The Growth Mindset” book, her idea of just that your your mind is continuing to grow and learn and move forward. And that's that's just kind of how things work. Now, like one of the most successful companies, Google, that you know about their x. Yeah, they have a Larry 6:05moonshot, Danelle 6:06moonshot factory, Yes, they have a portion of their company called x. And it's a moonshot factory, they, they dream and they dream big. And they try to break stuff. And they try to do everything that they can to fail, because when you fail, They know that failure is true learning. So when you fail, you are held up on stage and everyone claps for you. And you get a bonus, and you get a vacation and they say, go home, You did great try again tomorrow and come back with a new idea. Because they know that when you fail, you're kind of taking all those things that were awful. Like they talked about Google Glass, specifically, It was one of their failures that came out of x. They take all the things that they learned from that. And then they use that to make a better product the next time or to just come up with better ideas next time. And I think that we need to learn from from that moonshot factory, we need to learn from that The Carol Dweck book and from the whole maker mindset that says, Yeah, you should fail, you should fail miserably. And we know that there's a lot of things in education that needs to change. And that to get to true change, we probably need to break the system completely rebuilt from the ground up. But how do we do that, and that's so scary, and Larry 7:20We hold things, So many of those things that were used to precious. And one of the, one of the TED talks that I listened to, it was on the Google X and it was Astro Teller, who was talking, And one of the, which is a great name. Larry 7:36shocking that he's in engineering. Who would’ve thought? Unknown 7:40So one of the things, one of the comments that he made was, we go into every project thinking we're going to kill the project, you know, that is their, their, their mindset is they get a great idea. And then the rest of the time as they're developing it, They're trying to kill it. And that forces you away from taking the path of least resistance. Most of the time, we're when we're working on a project, We're always looking for the easiest solution, not the best solution. And by going the opposite direction, They end up getting oftentimes the best solution or at least working through most of the flaws, by the time they get to a workable solution. Another thing that you had kind of mentioned was where do we you know, kind of where do we start? How does it how do we build this and one of the one of the issues that I think we come up with or one of the issues we run into is we're typically used to scaffolding, We scaffold one thing above on top of the other, and it makes it a lot of sense is very linear, it's supportive. There's structure underneath it. The problem is there's turbulence underneath it, we're we're trying to build a structure during an earthquake. And the earthquake is constant now, there's there's so much fluctuation, there's so much change, there's so much input, that it's not like we know what the surface is, anymore. There's too much change there. So does the scaffolding technique. Though it makes sense? And it's very intuitive to us. It doesn't necessarily the or the question, I guess would be does it apply to our current circumstance? Is it it's a great system, If The foundation is solid? Do we have to recognize now that the foundation is no longer solid. So that system, it does not make sense any longer. I was listening to By the way, a fabulous TED Talk. Eddie Obeng, super high energy, super fun. But he that's what he was talking about his comment again, on the fact that there's so much turbulence underneath. And when we do get out of it, We're told all these wonderful things about being creative and thinking out of the box. I mean, I mean, that thinking out of the box concept, The problem is, be creative. But if you do crazy things, I'll fire you. You know, the same thing goes for and I'm going on here, but the same thing goes for our students, I think, you know, we want them to, We want them to fail, We want them to take chances and be creative. But then we every single structure that we have in education is counter to that. Here are your grades here, your test results, here's you know, it's so when that is built in from the start. It's hard to kind of be a high school student not be looking that direction. If The goal is winning, There's only one winner, and everyone has failed. If it is usefulness, If the goal is usefulness than anyone taking part in the solution is successful. Danelle 10:32I never thought about it that way. But you're 100% correct. And Larry 10:34I think that's that maker space mindset. Danelle 10:37Like we want kids to be messy and uncomfortable and in fail and fall flat on your face. But we've got grades, and we've got test scores, and we've got all these other things in place that are fighting against that all the time. Larry 10:51So Danielle, what's the solution? Because I think we can go on. Not that I'm expecting a solution. In fact, what I'd love, I'd love to have some input on this, because I think this is a really important question. And I think it's something that has to be acknowledged. I mean, we look at our ISTE standards, we go through our ISTE standards all the time, because I think they're they're good things empowered learner, digital citizen, knowledge constructor, innovative designer, computational thinker, creative communicator, global collaborator, These are not easily scaffolded goals. Not a one of them. This is not a plus b equals C, there isn't one of these goals that you can make simple supporting structures to get to. However, the failure mindset, the mistake mindset, Oh, that all kind of makes sense. It all kind of leads into into these. How do we allow the time maybe that's a good place to start? How do we allow time to fail? Danelle 11:48You have to how do we not allow time to fail? We can't, we would do our kids a giant disservice if we don't allow that time to fail. Larry 11:56But it's an efficient, Daniel, it's not. Danelle 11:59You have to look at the long game though. They need this stuff. And we need to be talking with our kids. Like, when when I sit down with my with my daughter, and I say, let me tell you, mommy was really good to try to meditate. She was gonna try meditation. And I've gotten there twice. And It was awesome both times I did it. But that was going to be my goal. So telling her man, I failed at this, but I didn't fail because I learned so what did I learn? Okay, I learned that. And I talked with her about different structures that I'm going to put in place so that way I can do this or change my goal, or I think you just constantly have to be showing kids and I guess this top down, it's, you know, administrators, giving the teachers the get out of fail free card and telling them I want you to fail, I want you to try things and the teachers telling the kids, you know, I tried this and I failed. And here's how yucky it felt uncomfortable. But here's why No, it was good. Because I know that I learned and like this fits right into math, and it fits right into everything we want our kids to be doing, I think you you don't have an option. I mean, you just can't not do this with your kids. Larry 13:10When they get to that high school level, that middle school level and they've been indoctrinated into a if they were indoctrinated into a failure is good. Failure does not mean you're a loser failure actually means you're a winner if you're acknowledging it. And when they get into that middle school, when they're starting to really think for themselves, and you know, their, their self esteem isn't necessarily tied directly to what their parents say, having the strength of confidence that if they do make a mistake, it's good, as opposed to something that's going to be a hit to their self esteem. I think for their social socio emotional health, social emotional health, and well being. Having the mistake, the failure mindset be ingrained would be just just a wonderful thing. In their growth, I think they would grow much faster emotionally. If they went into, if they went into those years and into their adulthood with that failure mindset again, And You said it earlier? The long view, you know, kind of that long game in mind. Danelle 14:14Yeah, 100%. Larry 14:16I don't think we have any solutions here. Do we have any solutions here? Danelle 14:19We don't have any solutions. But we do. I mean, I would offer people to check out the “Growth Mindset” book. Check out the Astro Teller TED talk about x, the podcasts “Failure is an Option” by NPR Radio Hour, that was a really good summary of failure with a bunch of different stories. Check out some stuff on the maker movement because the maker movement is really really good at pushing this failure idea. So um, the AJ Giuliani's and the John Spencer's, They talk about failure a lot. And I would just do some learning for yourself about what it means to fail. Larry 14:54There's a there's a ton of TED talks that I will link to the show notes as well, that talk about this. It's it's really something it's a it's a restart, it is a reset in many ways. And I'm not necessarily a big fan of the full revolution tear down so we can build it back up. And actually, I take I take that back. Actually, I kind of am. To some extent, I don't think it needs to be a violent act, necessarily. But I think there's some there's something to be said for deconstruction sometimes. And I think we might need to take a hard look at that. Danelle 15:24You said that much more eloquently. That's what I meant, Larry. Larry 15:29So is there anything else you do have a lot of notes and I don't want to do, Danelle 15:33I have a lot of notes that are all about my failing is important. So we covered it. Larry 15:38Alright, so Tech Tool of the Week, Danelle 15:39Tech Tool of the Week, I'm super excited to check out this tech tool, Adobe Spark just released a big new thing that they are now free for students. So getting kids on Adobe Spark to do some digital storytelling. It's a pretty powerful graphic video stories, web page, graphic design programs. So I'm really excited to get some kids on here, specifically with the maker space and have them work on some digital storytelling. So I'm really excited that Adobe Spark is now free for students and has special things in place for under 13. So I can definitely use this with my kiddos. Larry 16:18This looks like fun.  Danelle 16:19Yeah, I know, Larry 16:20Adobe makes great products, as we know. And usually a lot of times they're professional products in Spark is a great creative product by a company that understands how Creatives think this is cool. I can't wait to wait to see how you talk to other educators about implementing this in their classroom. Danelle 16:40I will say, I just read about it yesterday. So I'm really excited to get in there and test with some students today. So this is like brand new. All right. Ted, Ted talk about Tech, Tech Tool of the Week. Fail. Larry 16:56Tutorials and updates. I'm hoping to do a Baumann Certified this week. Maybe. I know there's an email in my inbox. We'll see if he if that's going to work out. Filming Vex Robotics at West Senior High. It is robotic season. Danelle 17:10It is Robotics Season Larry 17:10Gonna do some interviewing of some students and see what they're doing. You had mentioned earlier Traverse Heights Launchpad, plan on doing a segment and the Launch pad next week. Super excited about that. In closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop at @Brostromda and check out the TCAPSLoop blog at tcapsloop.tcaps.net. Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, and the Google Play Store. leave a review. We love the feedback. You're listening and inspiring. Music by Podington Bear

In this episode of Beneath the Subsurface we introduce our Geoscience and Data & Analytics intern teams for our summer internship program. Erica kicks off the episode with Jason and Sri talking about how the programs have come about and changed overtime here at TGS, how they select and recruit for the program, and the scope of the projects that the internships tackle this summer. Erica then spends time with both teams of interns discussing the experience in the program, what they’ve learned, and everything they’ll be taking away and applying back to their studies and upcoming careers. TABLE OF CONTENTS00:00 - Intro00:50 - Team Leader Segment with Jason and Sri01:09 - The Geoscience Internship Program04:42 - The Data & Analytics Internship Program07:29 - Advice for Program Applicants11:54 - Data & Analytics Intern Team Introductions13:32 - The D&A Summer Projects15:18 - Lessons Learned Pt. 117:20 - The TGS Internship Experience Pt. 120:24 - Future Careers21:41 - Advice for Future Interns & Reasons to Apply Pt. 124:34 - Valuable Take Aways Pt. 126:01 - Geoscience Intern Team Introductions28:36 - The Geoscience Summer Projects31:33 - Lessons Learned Pt. 233:14 - The TGS Internship Experience Pt. 234:12 - Advice for Future Interns & Reasons to Apply Pt. 239:28 - Valuable Take Aways Pt. 2EXPLORE MORE FROM THE EPISODEARLASSALT NET TGS DATA LIBRARYEPISODE TRANSCRIPTErica Conedera:00:12Hello and welcome to Beneath the Subsurface a podcast that explores the intersection of geoscience and technology. From the Software Development Department here at TGS, I'm your host, Erica Conedera. This time around, we'll be chatting with our newest batch of intrepid students in TGS' dynamic and immersive internship program. As you will hear, they are a diverse group of future innovators from around the world. They bring with them a wide range of skills and interests and work together to collaborate on exciting real world projects. We'll start our conversation today with a quick introduction from the leaders of our internship program. I'm here with Sri Kainkarayam, the data science lead and Jason Kegel with the geoscience team who heads up the geoscience intern program. And we're going to talk a little bit about the internship programs. Jason, how has this program changed in the last five years?Jason Kegel:01:09When we first started the program, I want to say 2013, 2014, it was out of the Calgary office in Canada. The interns there were mainly from some of our Calgary schools nearby. And then it started to grow 2014, 2015 to include some of our Texas schools, UT, Baylor, University of Houston. As it's grown, we've decided to add more projects and more sort of interesting work to the projects. We've also been able to bring on some of our original interns into roles within the company. So over the last five years, I'd say the biggest thing that's grown is the, the number of interns. So in Calgary, when this first started we had one intern and then that same intern came back a second year and we brought another one on. And then we got one in Houston. And then as that grew, we had a couple in Houston and a couple in Calgary.Jason: 02:09And then the past couple of years we've had four each year. So we had four last year and four this year. So we've really been able to sort of guide new projects around that to where we can really include their schoolwork and what they're doing in their university work with what we're doing here at TGS and hopefully build a sort of cohesive project for them to work on. And that's sort of the struggle with a lot of internship projects that we've done over the past years is to incorporate what they want to do as students and as interns and as their career grows, with what we'd like to see them do and encourage them to do within TGS.Erica:02:49Does that go into the consideration of which interns you end up picking, what their specialties are or what they're looking to do with what you need?Jason:02:58No, not necessarily, a lot of the times the interns, so for example, last year we were working very closely with a couple of schools that we wanted to bring data into. So some of our production data our Longbow group into with the University of Lafayette. So we were working really closely with a few professors out of that school and a few professors with UH. So we had recommendations from the professors themselves with students that they thought might work nicely with us with - in terms of their knowledge of data already and their knowledge of well log use and seismic, so they can kind of jump in running without having to learn too much in the beginning, without too much of a learning curve. So in aspects of that, and that's, that's more that we look for. So the, the professors we're working with, along with how long it will take them to, to get up and running with things.Jason:03:51Our current group of students is sort of a more advanced set of students who are working on their PhDs or in their later years of their master's degrees. So they've already seen a lot of these areas and worked with a lot of the data. So we do look for sort of more advanced students now, whereas when we first started the program, we were, we were happy to get anybody, some people that were not sure if they were going to be geoscientists, but you know, we're in the geoscience program with their bachelor's and that was okay too. I think we still got a lot out of having them here, working with us. but as we've grown, we've been putting them on more and more advanced projects and they've really been able to help out.Erica:04:29Cool, sounds like they've added a lot of value.Jason:04:30They definitely do. And it's nice to have sort of fresh faces around in the summertime and, and it really, really fills in for everybody that goes on vacation in the summer.Erica:04:39(Laughter) Right? Awesome.Jason:04:39The office doesn't seem so empty.Erica:04:42Awesome. So for the data analytics team, the internship program is new. I think this is your first batch of interns, correct Sri?Sri Kainkaryam:04:57Yes. So the data science team started sometime around November, 2017 so this is, although this has been our second summer, this is our first batch of interns that are projects, both, trying to test out novel algorithms, novel approaches, also try and apply ideas from high performance computing to building workflows, and also try and build sort of, user interfaces or ability to, deploy these for various users. So, there are broadly three buckets in which these projects fall into. And, it's an, it's, it was an interesting time looking for an intern because data science as, as a domain is, sits at the intersection of sort of three, broadly non intersecting sets, right? So geoscience, computing as well as machine learning or deep learning and folks having adequate background in all three of them, they sort of fit the -the mold of a good intern.Sri:06:02So it was in some sense was a little hard initially to try and find an intern. So I think we have a talented group of interns working on two of the broad offerings that we have right now. One of them is Salt Net, that is trying to interpret salt bodies from seismic images, and one is called ARLAS that is curve completion and aspects of petrophysics that can be done on, on wells that are available in an entire basin. So, it's, it's been four weeks into the internship program and the interns, the interns are pretty smart. They're motivated and it's been a fun experience so far.Erica:06:43Is it a 12 week program in total?Sri:06:46It's around a 12 week program. Some of them I think are here for a little longer than that. So, one of them is, trying to build a tensorflow port of our salt network flow because tensorflow community comes with a bunch of advantages such as, like, ability to deploy, it also comes with a JavaScript library called tensorflow JS that that makes it easy to do machine learning in the browser. So we want to make use of that infrastructure and the community built infrastructure. And that's one of the reasons why, one of the interns is spending time trying to build, trying to put our workflow in onto tensorflow.Erica:07:29So if you guys had some advice to give to people looking to get into the internship program, would you have anything you'd want to let them know?Sri:07:37So from the perspective of data science internships, given that how fast the field is moving, especially for students looking for data science internships in, in the space of oil and gas, the first and foremost thing is having an ability to understand various aspects, various various sources of data or aspects of data in the upstream domain. Because, just to give you an example, somebody who's worked on deep learning of natural images throughout, the moment you try and apply similar algorithms onto seismic images, it's a completely different domain. So, what are the, what are some of the assumptions that you can make? And that's where having a strong domain background really helps.Sri:08:30And I think the second thing that is, that's becoming very important in the marketplace right now is, is with, with platforms like GitHub or, you know, various open source projects. You can actually showcase your code. So pick a problem, learn a few, learn some approaches or try out some novel approaches, and put out the code out there. Put that on your resume because that adds a lot of weight, in your, in your ability to make a case for an internship rather than somebody who hasn't, who says, oh, I have, I have a strong programming background, but there's no way for somebody who's evaluating the person to see the code. So that these days has become a really strong advantage for, for a lot of students. So a couple of the students that are working with us this summer, they actually have active GitHub profiles where they've posted code, they've contributed code, various projects and so on. And as a consequence, like we looked at their profiles and backgrounds and like, oh, this is an obvious fit to our group and this person also has a background. A couple of them were like Ph.D students in geophysics, so it's an obvious fit for our team. So it was, it was all, it was a no-brainer for us to get them to come work with us this summer,Erica:09:53Jason?Jason:09:53On the geoscience side, it's, it's quite a bit different really. A lot of the students that are in university going for, for geoscience and wanting to go into the oil and gas industry have mainly just academic experience. So we really just want somebody that can sort of get up to speed quickly with sort of what an explorationist in an oil and gas company would do is look at essentially what we're bringing them in to do is what a sort of a mini, really quick exploration studies on basins where they don't have to go full on to drill a well, but they still need to have the ideas behind it where they can use the data, they have to evaluate an area and come up to speed quickly with, with getting those presentations out. So having really good presentation skills and having just a background enough to be able to learn on their own and pick up concepts quickly really helps. We see that a lot with, since we do get a lot of our interns through their advisors at different universities, that that really helps. But it also doesn't hinder it. We've also had lots of students that have applied, that have came from different universities where we don't know the advisors and it's just a matter of them going through the interview process and showcasing that they're, they're able to get to speed quickly. So, anybody can really go, go and do this type of work if they have the, the ability to learn.Erica:11:14Awesome.Sri:11:14I think that's an interesting point that Jason brought up. The ability to learn things fast and, sort of the ability to, appreciate various data sets and trying to understand and bring them together. I think that's a huge advantage for, for students. And based on my interaction with students in our group as well as Jason's group, I think TGS this summer has a fabulous group of interns.Erica:11:43Okay. Well thank you guys for talking to us about the internship program and we're very happy to talk to your respective groups and see what they have to say. Thank you.Sri:11:52Thank very much.Jason:11:53Thank you.Erica:11:56I'm sitting here with our first group of interns from the data and analytics group. To my left, we have Michael Turek from Florida State University. His major is computer science. He has a B.S. In computer science as an Undergrad. What are your career goals? What are you working towards?Michael Turek:12:15Yes. So part of me taking an internship here at TGS was to help figure that out. And so, well, you know, my interests rely mostly in machine learning and things like this. So something pretty, along those lines.Erica:12:31Awesome. Well we hope you, we'll help you figure that out. While you're here. Going around the table, we have Lingxiao Jia from the University of Wyoming. Your major is geophysics and you're working towards your PhD studying seismic imaging, migration and inversion. What kind of career are you working towards?Lingxiao Jia:12:50I plan to work as a Geoscientist in the oil and gas industry.Erica:12:56Awesome.Lingxiao:12:56Yeah, I like to do programming, so mostly on that.Erica:13:06Cool. All right. And then to my right, we had Deepthi Sen, from Texas A&M, majoring in petroleum engineering, working towards your PhD, studying reservoir engineering. What's your career goal, Ms. Deepthi?Deepthi Sen:13:21I'd like to, get a full time employment in the oil industry, preferably working on something related to machine learning in reservoir engineering. So yeah, that's why one of the reasons why I'm here too.Erica:13:33Awesome. Yeah. Oh, we're glad all of you are here. So can you guys describe for us, the projects you're working on? I'm not sure if you guys are all working on the same project or if you're working on different projects.Deepthi:13:45We are working on different projects. So right now I'm working on something which, involves clustering well logs, into good and bad, sections.Deepthi:13:57I use machine learning and a few algorithms that I use for my graduate research too.Erica:14:04Very cool. What's a bad section?Deepthi:14:07A bad section as in, there are certain depths at which, certain well logs behave erratically so we want, do not want to use that data, so we have to cluster it out. So, in order to do that manually for, you know, thousands of wells, it's impossible. So that's where machine learning comes into play.Erica:14:27Very cool. Very useful too. Lingxiao?Lingxiao:14:32I'll be working on using machine learning to do the recognition of geoscience features. For example, there could be faults, it could be picking horizons, could be recognizing salt domes, something like that.Erica:14:48Wow. Very complex and over my head. (Laughter) I'm sure it's very important though. And you, sir?Michael:14:57Yeah, so I'm working on translating the models that TGS' data analytics team uses to predict salt patches in the earth. So they use, they use models written in a module called Pi Torch and I'm converting that to tensorflow 2.0Erica:15:17Cool. Very cool. So what have you guys learned along the way so far? I know this is kind of the beginning for you, but-Michael:15:28Yeah, so it's, it's somewhat difficult to- so much, is kind of the answer to that question. But a lot of what I've learned boils down to more of the theory side of machine learning. Coming into the internship I didn't know a whole lot about the backend of machine learning, mostly just applying it. So learning how all these models work and why they work and things like that in terms of, the actual actually applying machine learning. That's what I've learned. I've also learned though, perhaps more importantly, working with a team and collaborating and things like that, which has been-Erica:16:10So hands on, real-world experience. What do you guys say to that? Ladies, I should say (Laughter) to my right.Deepthi:16:17So as I said, the research that I do is again, on machine learning. So I get to use similar algorithms to another, I would say facet of oil and gas. So I worked in reservoir engineering back in Grad school. Here I'm working on, petrophysics, so I kind of see how the same algorithms and same concepts can be applied in two different, areas, which is quite eye opening. Yeah. And apart from that I'm learning new algorithms and learning new math, which, I would think that's very important for, for my Grad school too, so, one good thing about TGS is that, they are quite, you know, they don't mind, publishing. So as a PhD student, that's very important to me. So that's one thing I look forward to too.Erica:17:08Yeah. Awesome.Lingxiao:17:10For me, it has helped me get a deeper understanding of how much, how machine learning works and how it could be applied to the field of Geo Sciences.Erica:17:20Cool. So talking about TGS more broadly, like as a culture, how would you say it's like working here, if someone were to ask you from school, what's it like working at TGS? What's that company like? What would you say?Deephti:17:36It's a very friendly atmosphere and, it is different from Grad School, in the sense that, I think Grad School, hours are more flexible than in an industry environment. But then, the focus is different and this is more, you know, I would think this more social than Grad school and, you know, being here, this is my first internship in the US, the environment is very friendly and you know, people look out for each other it's great.Erica:18:15Cool.Lingxiao:18:15Yeah. People here are so helpful and the, I have had a great time. I really enjoy this internship by far. Yeah.Erica:18:26Awesome.Michael:18:26It's wonderful. You're working in small teams and so you get to know everyone pretty well. It's very tight knit and those people are smart and very helpful kind people. It's, it's, it's wonderful.Erica:18:37Cool. Any surprises along the way? Anything you weren't expecting?Michael:18:44So, no, I wouldn't say there's anything that surprised me. I mean apart from the environment I had a much more perhaps rigid definition of, you know, you go to work and do your job and that's kind of that, but it's much more relaxed and that was, I guess, somewhat surprising.Erica:19:01Okay. I like that. Yeah. How bad the drive was maybe?Deepthi:19:06Yeah, I stay close by.Erica:19:09That's good. That's the way to do it. (Laughter) Yeah. What are you guys looking forward to for the remainder of your internships?Michael:19:17Yeah, so I'm looking forward since I'm rewriting these, these models and an interface for them, it'll be exciting to see them, how they perform and also to actually see the data and analytics team using them and hopefully finding them useful.Erica:19:31Yeah to see value for what you're working on. Absolutely.Deepthi:19:34So I'm about to finish the first part of my project, so I would like to wrap it up, you know, produce some good results and maybe get a publication out of it. And after that, yeah, I have a plan for what is to be done next, regarding the same, using the same similar approach but in a different setting. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to that.Erica:19:59Can you tell us what the different setting is or is that classified?Deepthi:20:03I'm not sure. (Laughter)Erica:20:05Right. We'll leave that one alone.Lingxiao:20:08So doing an internship here at TGS is an amazing adventure. I learn and discover new things everyday and I feel time passes very quickly, and everything is moving at a timely manner. So it's pretty good.Erica:20:24Nice. So I think we kind of touched upon how you guys are going to apply what you've learned here, at your careers as you go forward. Is there any particular job title that you guys think you're going to go towards?Deepthi:20:44Yeah. I probably will be going for a data scientist role, or I can say because of my background in reservoir engineering, I can go both on the data and science roles or the reservoir engineering roles. But yeah, from my experience here, I would, I think I would prefer to go to the data and data science roles because, there are like lots of opportunities out there and, the experience that I've gained here, I, I think it's going to be very helpful finding a full time position later on. Yeah.Lingxiao:21:18I could consider becoming a Geoscientist in the oil and gas or becoming a structural engineer because I have a programming background.Michael:21:32Yeah. I wouldn't say I have any career title I'm, I'm seeking out, but perhaps data scientist, but I'm not sure.Erica:21:41So what advice would you give to the interns who are going to be coming behind you?Michael:21:46Yeah. So probably to just build strong relationships with the team that you're in. Learn as much as you can, as deeply as you can.Deepthi:21:58Yeah. I would suggest that before coming in, you can go through, or if they have a set plan for you. In my case they did. So I had read up and you know, known what I'm going to work on so you can, you know, straight away start working on the project you have a rather than, you know, spend a lot of time, reading up those things that can happen before you start the internship. And yes, once you're here, it's, very important to like keep in touch, you know, meet the mentors every day or you know, update them so you have a clear path that you need to, yeah.Erica:22:44Lingxiao?Lingxiao:22:44I would suggest to go talk with people and you see what everyone is working on.Erica:22:51So learn, learn what other people are doing as well.Lingxiao:22:55Yeah.Erica:22:55That, yeah, that makes good sense. So why did you guys apply for the internships here?Michael:23:05So I applied, cause I was just looking for an internship and I had heard that, well I had heard that, (Laughter)Erica:23:14Honest.Michael:23:14(Laughter) I had heard good reviews from people who I respect and and I knew that they had a new data and analytics team doing machine learning, doing things with machine learning. That piqued my interest. And so I told them I was interested.Erica:23:28So kind of diverge off of that. So what programs are you guys using? Like actual hands on programs?Michael:23:36Yeah. So, programs for me are pretty, pretty simple. I use, a coding ID, visual Studio Code, and an Internet browser.Erica:23:43Whoa, okay.Michael:23:46I do that to do my work.Erica:23:47Google and a calculator, alright.Michael:23:49Yeah, pretty much.Erica:23:52Deepthi?Deepthi:23:52Uh, what was the question again?Erica:23:56What programs do you guys use?Deepthi:23:59Again, I guess we are in the process of making a program, so what I use is just Jupyter, it's very basic.Erica:23:59It's built on Python correct?Deepthi:23:59Yes, it is Python, I use Jupyter ID, and I'm in the process of making something useful from scratch.Erica:24:22So lastly, would you guys recommend a TGS internship to your fellow students?All:24:27Yes, definitely. Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. Awesome. Yes.Erica:24:34Okay. So open question to the table. What are you going to take back to your program that you learned from your internship here? Starting with Michael to the left?Michael:24:42Yeah, so I'm learning a lot about machine learning and so in computer science that's obviously going to be a direct parallel. I can take that back. But I really think that what I'm learning most here that I'll take back is just how to collaborate with people, how to talk with people in a team and work in that way. I think that'll -Erica:25:05Life skills.Michael:25:11Yes.Erica:25:11Lingxiao?Lingxiao:25:11So, since machine learning in such a hot topic. Now, the work that I did here could be really extended into a project in my PhD research. So, yeah I'm currently working on that.Erica:25:28Awesome. Deepthi?Deepthi:25:29So right now we're working on a clustering of time series data. So my, one of the projects that I'm working, at my Grad school is also on time series data, and I think I might be able to, you know, use the insights that I gained from, from TGS, directly to my, research. So that's something that I'm looking forward to.Erica:25:52Awesome. Okay, well thank you guys for talking with us today and I guess we'll let you get back to work now.Michael:25:59Thank you for having us.Deepthi:26:00Thank you.Lingxiao:26:01Thank you.Erica:26:01And now our last group for this episode, the geoscience interns.Erica:26:08Going around the table clockwise, we have Sean Romito. You're from the University of Houston, majoring in geology. You are working towards your PhD and you are studying magnetic basement structure of the Caribbean plate, tectonostratigraphy of South Gabon and Camamu-Almada conjugate basins. I totally know what all of that means. What career are you working towards?Sean Romito:26:35Oh, hello. Thank you for having me. Definitely exploration Geoscientist, this is kind of where I've been propelling my career, ever since I started with a bachelor's and I've just kinda been stepping towards that goal.Erica:26:51Awesome. All right. Now we have Geoff Jackson from the University of Louisiana at Lafayette Majoring in petroleum geology. Your program is a master's degree and you graduated last spring. Congratulations!Geoff Jackson:27:07Thank you!Erica:27:07You studied a prospect lead off of a salt dome in southern Louisiana, and you cannot give us any more details than that.Geoff:27:14Unfortunately yes.Erica:27:14Very mysterious. So what, what are your career goals?Geoff:27:19Uh, similar to Sean's I was going to say, I can probably speak for the group here, but we're all just trying to be geologists and getting on with an operator, going to say probably best case scenario.Erica:27:28Awesome. Next we have Hualing Zhang, from the University of Houston, majoring in geology, working towards a PhD. And you're studying structural analysis and gravity modeling in the Permian Basin in West Texas. And you are originally from Urumqi, Northwest China and you got interested in geology about traveling around. That is so cool. So is your career goal the same?Hualing:27:53Yeah, basically similar, I'm working towards a career goal in the oil industry. Yeah. Since, like, my dad is also a geologist. Yeah. He works in PetroChina. So yeah, that's also my career goal.Erica:28:08Awesome. Yeah. Awesome. All right. And lastly, Cahill Kelleghan from Colorado School of Mines, majoring in geology. You're working towards a Masters of science and geology, and you're studying sedimentology and basin analysis / modeling with your thesis being in the Delaware Basin. So career goals?Cahill:28:28I'm pretty similar. I like to be in exploration geology and I really like sedimentology. So yeah, just applied geo science.Erica:28:36Awesome. Cool. So can you describe for us the projects that you guys are working on this summer? Same project or different project?Sean:28:46TGS has kind of tasked us with, I'm putting together some potential prospects or ideas of places we can look and most of that's going to be happening, well, we think it'd be North America and North American basins. And so we've kind of gotten access to some of their pretty amazing software, access to a lot of different databases and kind of putting that all together for a big picture of something useful that they can hopefully use from our projects. So I don't know if you guys want to add anything.Geoff:29:15Yeah, I mean, for one thing with these projects that's been very helpful to leverage the software that TGS has, specifically Longbow and access to their wealth of onshore well data that they have there. So we've been kind of bringing all of that together to generate these areas where we think that we should move further into as a company.Hualing:29:40Yeah. Also the first two weeks we're like working separately. We each have a study area and it's just a information gathering and doing researches and moving forward. Right now we are working in pairs. So, me and Geoff, we are working on similar location and to do like a research in a more detailed way. Yeah.Erica:30:05So you guys mentioned the software programs you're using. So aside from Longbow, what other programs do you use?Cahill:30:14Um, a lot, a lot of work in Kingdom. But Longbow yeah. Longbow and Kingdom. I'd say probably the big two. Yeah. yeah.Sean:30:25Any, I mean, any time you talk about geology, Arc Gis is going to come up. So we've definitely been using that a lot as well.Erica:30:32Okay. And is that different than what you were familiar with, from school or is this the same training that you had?Sean:30:39Well, Longbow is completely different. You know, even looking at production data is not something that I, you know, geoscientists when we ever, we go through academia, we even get exposed to. We use Kingdom. But I think it's, it's more of on a limited basis. I've, I've really been able to work a lot with, the, the well interpretation suites here at TGS that I hadn't worked with before.Erica:31:03Cool. How do you, do you find that challenging or kind of a natural extension of what you are already working with?Sean:31:11I mean, I, yeah, challenging, interesting, different. The team here, the geoscience team here has been very helpful, with the different, features. I'd say there are bugs. Some people might say they're features with the Kingdom software. (Laughter) but I'd say challenging. Yeah, but, but in a good way, not, not as a, you know, wringing out your hands kind of way.Erica:31:33So what else have you guys learned besides Longbow?Geoff:31:37I think for me is just kind of seeing just like what a day-in and day-out sort of process is like. So like having worked in the field, I never walked, I've never worked in a corporate environment before, but just kind of seeing how teams integrate and work together, it's going to say I've never seen that portion before. And so for me it's been fun, you know, going from classroom and then getting the actual hands on application of what we learned in the classroom. That's what's been fun for me so far.Erica:32:01Anyone else agree? Agree, disagree?Sean:32:03I agree. Yeah. No, I mean another thing that I feel a lot of us, especially me and with my Phd projects, they're very wide scale. I'm not talking about basins, I'm talking about plates. And so it's been very rewarding to kind of zoom in. Even if we are still basin scale, that's a lot smaller than I'm used to. So I'm able to kind of get lost in the details more than I would in a very large scale study.Hualing:32:28I think also a good thing is we learn from each other. Like where were you working together? Yeah, we're getting familiar with the software and if any of us found something and others will get around and see what we found. And I think that's very important for us to learn.Erica:32:48Yeah, absolutely.Cahill:32:50Yeah, I think kind of going off that as well and we obviously us for come from different backgrounds in Geo Science and what we've worked in and we kinda bring those backgrounds and each of our own projects and we kind of can come together and help each other out in different areas that we might not be more experienced with, like certain, well log interpretations or mapping things, stuff like that. So, so yeah, it's, it is helpful to have a team.Geoff:33:14Good overlap.Erica:33:14What's it like working at TGS, culture wise? The people, the food?Sean:33:22(Laughter) well they treat us well hereGeoff:33:24I was gonna say no complaints there. Yeah, I mean getting started in know there's always a learning curve, but I mean I guess as much of a learning curve as there could be, you know, everyone around here has been as helpful as possibly could be, you know, to help make that climb that much less steep, if that's a good way of wording it. But that's kind of what I would think.Cahill: 33:43The food is definitely good. Healthy. I like it.Sean:33:45Can't complain about free lunches.Cahill:33:47Yeah. But, but I mean I think the culture here is really, everyone's been extremely nice and even just within the geoscience team, a lot of nice guys; Cian and Alex, they've been so helpful with any questions we have, whether it be geology related or software related, and we've had company outings already. Going on Top Golf is super fun. Everyone's very open to meeting different branches and whatnot. So that was really fun.Erica:34:12Why did you apply? Did it, for TGS' internship program in particular?Sean:34:17Well. Yeah. So, our professor, me and Hualing, we have the same, advisor at the University of Houston. Dr. Paul Mann. And he was actually the one that reached out to us because, James, the head of the Geoscience Department here, had reached out to him looking for good candidates. and he had asked us if we wanted to, to join up. We, we kind of, you know, we researched it. We, I was, I talked to James on the phone and it just seemed like something, so different from what I was doing at the moment that I felt like it was a great opportunity to jump back. And it, I have absolutely no regrets.Erica:34:54Awesome.Geoff:34:54Yeah, my story is pretty much the same thing. My thesis advisor was, was good friends with James K and so he reached out to me and saying, pretty much the same deal as him. Looked into you guys, obviously cause say Jason, I met you before. So that, and also, the interns from last year, I was going to say I was good friends with them too. So I knew what they did. And so, here I am.Erica:35:17Any surprises along the way? Anything that you weren't expecting that you've encountered during your time here?Cahill:35:25I guess one thing is, it shouldn't be surprising, but I'd always is that I'm working with really big data sets. There's always lots of errors you have to put up with. And even with the amazing technology we have, there's always, there's always a human aspect to it, that's always interesting, that we've dealt with in our data at least so far.Hualing:35:44I think for me it's the flexible working time and my, yeah, he didn't request a specific time to be here or like a specific time to leave. So that's like really helpful for my schedule that I can make adjustment along and try to see by what time range works best for me. Yeah.Geoff:36:08Yeah, that's definitely been nice. I feel, like you said having to commute from Spring. I was going to say, getting to come in maybe later or earlier as need be. It's always definitely nice to dodge that traffic.Erica:36:22What are you guys looking forward to working on for the remainder of your internship here?Geoff:36:27Well, I'm really excited to see the end product of what we're doing, especially because, we're going to be presenting it to upper management, and presenting it to our, our geoscience team as well. I think that's really going to help bringing it all together. Cause right now we know we're all working on our separate areas as well. I mean, we're still two teams in a certain area, but it's still very much our own work. And so that, that finish line I think is going to be where it all comes together and I see more bigger, I see a bigger picture than maybe I'm seeing right now.Geoff:36:57Yeah. I think one aspect that I like about is, it's not just busy work. You know, we're actually adding value to the company with an end result. Kind of like what Sean said.Erica: 37:06No making coffee?All:37:08(Laughter) Danggit. For ourselves, we make coffee for ourselves.Erica:37:14Um, what advice would you give to other students wanting to intern here?Cahill:37:20Say like, don't be afraid to get into anything that you're not experienced with. Whether it's geology or software related. Since coming here, I feel like you can learn a lot from a lot of different people and there's a lot of different backgrounds here and people are all open to helping you or talking about their passion and their little branch of geology or geoscience. And so I would say don't be afraid to ask questions and go up to random people and say, hey, what do you do here? And what are you into? Because chances are they're happy or passionate about their job and you can probably learn something from it.Geoff:37:54Yeah. Maybe to add onto those, don't feel like you have to know everything beforehand coming in. Cause I mean you're not, no one's gonna know everything. Kind of like what Cahill said, there's plenty of resources around. You don't feel afraid to ask. No. Everyone out here is more than willing to give their time to help you out for what you might have a problem with. And we've had that reiterated to us time and time again. So, I mean, it's been nice to know.Sean:38:17Hmm. And, I don't know if before we talked about how we got the internship, and I feel personal connections are the biggest, you know, it's not about going on a website and clicking apply. It's about going to the conferences and meeting people from TGS and they're extremely friendly. We've all seen that firsthand. So I'd definitely recommend, and I, I would recommend it as well that you would get an internship with TGS, but just go up and see them during conferences, talk to them, ask them about opportunities, say, Hey, what are you guys doing? Be interested. and even if you don't get something out of it, that's fine. You're still gonna make connection, connections and learn about where the industry's heading.Hualing:38:53Yeah, I definitely agree with Sean, cause I met Alex on with, the person, our geoscience group, we met during the AAPG meeting at San Antonio and I talked to him and, he talked to me about his project and what I may be expecting for my interns. I think that definitely helped. And yeah, when I first day, when I came here, I saw him as, hey, yeah, that's, yeah. I feel like familiar and yeah, I'm more easy to get along. Yeah.Erica:39:28What have you gained during your time here at TGS that you're gonna take with you as you continue your studies and your career?Sean:39:36Everything we just talked about. Yeah, no, I mean that, that's a good sum up question. So the, the connections we've made with all the people here, not just in the Geo science team, every, every other team that there has that there is at this company. All the skills that we're learning with these different programs, the different perspectives we're getting because we're looking at, again, not just geological data, we're looking at, these problems more holistically. All that and above, I think is what we're going to take with us.Cahill:40:02Yeah. I think, you pretty much nailed it on the head. It's seeing the, the geoscience in an actual industry application in its own way. It's a lot of different moving parts coming together for an end product that's ultimately valuable and generates business. And then seeing how that works, you know, if on a fundamental level that's, that's pretty interesting and being able to be a part of, it's pretty cool. So.Erica:40:27Well, awesome. Well, thank you guys for being here. Thank you for talking with us today, and we'll let you get back to work.

Find us online at: AdventNYC.orgEmail us at: Podcast@AdventNYC.orgTalk with us at: Advent Sermons & Conversations on FacebookCome to a service and hear the sermons live and in person Sunday morning 9am and 11am in English and 12:30pm in Spanish at 93rd and Broadway.Readings for this Week:Exodus 16:2-4, 9-152The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. 3The Israelites said to them, “If only we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the fleshpots and ate our fill of bread; for you have brought us out into this wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger.”  4Then the Lord said to Moses, “I am going to rain bread from heaven for you, and each day the people shall go out and gather enough for that day. In that way I will test them, whether they will follow my instruction or not.”  9Then Moses said to Aaron, “Say to the whole congregation of the Israelites, ‘Draw near to the Lord, for he has heard your complaining.’ ” 10And as Aaron spoke to the whole congregation of the Israelites, they looked toward the wilderness, and the glory of the Lordappeared in the cloud. 11The Lord spoke to Moses and said, 12“I have heard the complaining of the Israelites; say to them, ‘At twilight you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall have your fill of bread; then you shall know that I am the Lord your God.’ ”  13In the evening quails came up and covered the camp; and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. 14When the layer of dew lifted, there on the surface of the wilderness was a fine flaky substance, as fine as frost on the ground. 15When the Israelites saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. Moses said to them, “It is the bread that the Lord has given you to eat.”Psalm 78:23-2923So God commanded the | clouds above  and opened the | doors of heaven, 24raining down manna upon | them to eat  and giving them | grain from heaven. R 25So mortals ate the | bread of angels;  God provided for them | food enough. 26The Lord caused the east wind to blow | in the heavens  and powerfully led out | the south wind, 27raining down flesh upon | them like dust  and flying birds like the sand | of the seas, 28letting them fall in the midst | of the camp  and round a- | bout the dwellings. 29So the people ate and | were well filled,  for God gave them | what they craved. REphesians 4:1-161I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.  7But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8Therefore it is said,  “When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive;  he gave gifts to his people.”9(When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.) 11The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. 14We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. 15But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love.John 6:24-3524When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were [beside the sea,] they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum looking for Jesus.  25When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26Jesus answered them, “Very truly, I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.” 28Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”  35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.”

Philippians 2:21-30: "For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22But you know Timothy's proven worth, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me."

Philippians 2:21-30: "For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22But you know Timothy's proven worth, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me."

Philippians 2:21-30: "For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22But you know Timothy's proven worth, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me."

Philippians 2:21-30: "For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22But you know Timothy's proven worth, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel. 23I hope therefore to send him just as soon as I see how it will go with me, 24and I trust in the Lord that shortly I myself will come also. 25I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, 26for he has been longing for you all and has been distressed because you heard that he was ill. 27Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious. 29So receive him in the Lord with all joy, and honor such men, 30for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was lacking in your service to me."

A lesson on lust and sexual sin from Matthew 5:27 – 32: 27“You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29So if your eye—even if it is your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your hand—even if it is your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 31“You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce.’ 32But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”Support the show (https://centralnow.com/give/)

Matthew 18:21-35 (English Standard Version) The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant  21Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.  23"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.' 29So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."