Podcasts about fearless salary negotiation

In this episode, Josh Doody, a renowned Salary Negotiation Coach and author of “Fearless Salary Negotiation,” explains what a Salary Negotiation Coach does and why this role is crucial for individuals aiming to maximize their compensation. Josh addresses the high fees associated with his services, justifying them by the significant return on investment his clients experience. He also shares how he developed his niche in helping executives and leaders negotiate job offers, providing a unique and highly valuable service. Finally, Josh offers his top piece of compensation negotiation advice, emphasizing the importance of understanding one's market value and confidently advocating for it.Resources: Website: https://joshdoody.com/  Connect with Josh on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/ Buy the book: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/Josh's Twitter/X page: https://x.com/joshdoodyArticle: How to answer salary expectations questions: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-expectations-interview-question/Let's Stay in Touch! LinkedIn (be sure to mention you heard the podcast ;-)) Twitter Instagram Website - B.O.O.S.T.® Your Brilliance

Today's episode is a re-release of one of our most popular episodes on the podcast: our conversation with Josh Doody, a renowned salary negotiation coach and author of Fearless Salary Negotiation. With the job market shifting and more people navigating complex career moves, we thought it was the perfect time to bring back Josh's invaluable advice on negotiating job offers.This episode covers why changing companies can be key to maximizing your compensation, the best practices for salary negotiation, and common mistakes to avoid. It's packed with practical strategies and tips to help you approach salary discussions with confidence and make the most of your opportunities. This is a must-listen for anyone preparing for interviews or hoping to elevate their career trajectory.All episodes of the podcast are also available on Spotify, Apple and YouTube (video).New to the pod? Subscribe below to get the next episode in your inbox

Navigating the world of salary negotiations can be daunting, but mastering this essential skill can significantly impact your career growth.In this episode, Hannah Clark is joined by Josh Doody—Salary Negotiation Coach for High Earners—to share strategies that can help job seekers potentially secure thousands of dollars more in compensation, and adapt these techniques to future negotiations throughout their careers.Resources from this episode:Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletterConnect with Josh on LinkedInCheck out Fearless Salary Negotiation

Josh Doody has coached 200+ high earners in tech through salary negotiations, leading to an average of 16% increase in liquid first year compensation. He's a published author of Fearless Salary Negotiation and shares tips regularly on YouTube.In this episode, we talk about:* Why people should negotiate* What's a typical negotiation timeline* How to negotiate without a counteroffer* Go over common negotiation pitfalls/mistakes * How to negotiate in the current job market (Q1 2024)* Why changing companies every 2-3 years optimizes earning potentialIf you enjoyed the episode, feel free to learn more about Josh through these links:* Josh's site: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/* How to answer “What's your expected salary?”: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-expectations-interview-question/ * Do you need multiple competing job offers to negotiate?: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/multiple-competing-job-offers-negotiate/* Josh's newsletter: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/newsletter/* Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/JoshDoody* Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/* YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheJoshDoody* Book: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step/dp/0692568689Thanks for listening!Marc & BenMarc: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcbaselga/Ben: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benerez/Did you find this episode valuable? We'd appreciate a share!Want the next episode directly in your inbox? Subscribe below

For this episode, Rob and I interviewed Josh Doody, a self-employed Salary Negotiation Coach who specializes in helping high earners get paid what they're worth. We talked about: * Fearless Salary Negotiation * Pay Bands * Revealing Your Salary History * Salary Transparency * His money beliefs and definition of financial success * Why being a Salary Negotiation Coach is his dream career Enjoy this informative and eye-opening episode! Special Guest: Josh Doody.

Josh Doody, Owner of Fearless Salary Negotiation, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how important tonality and communication is, both in salary negotiations and everyday life. Josh describes how important it is to have a positive padding to your communications in order to make the person on the other end of the negotiation feel like a collaborator rather than a combatant. Corey and Josh also describe scenarios where tonality made a huge difference in the outcome, and Josh gives some examples of where and when to be mindful of how you're coming across in modern communication methods. Josh also reveals how negotiating with companies multiple times allows him to understand their recruiters more than a person who is encountering their negotiation process for the first time.About JoshJosh is a salary negotiation coach who works with senior software engineers and engineering managers to negotiate job offers with big tech companies. He also wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation: A Step-by-Step Guide to Getting Paid What You're Worth, and recently launched Salary Negotiation Mastery to help folks who aren't able to work with Josh 1-on-1.Links Referenced: Fearless Salary Negotiation website: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com Fearless Salary Negotiation: https://www.amazon.com/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step/dp/0692568689/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/joshdoody LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Human-scale teams use Tailscale to build trusted networks. Tailscale Funnel is a great way to share a local service with your team for collaboration, testing, and experimentation.  Funnel securely exposes your dev environment at a stable URL, complete with auto-provisioned TLS certificates. Use it from the command line or the new VS Code extensions. In a few keystrokes, you can securely expose a local port to the internet, right from the IDE.I did this in a talk I gave at Tailscale Up, their first inaugural developer conference. I used it to present my slides and only revealed that that's what I was doing at the end of it. It's awesome, it works! Check it out!Their free plan now includes 3 users & 100 devices. Try it at snark.cloud/tailscalescream Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined by recurring guest and friend Josh Doody, who among oh, so many things, is the owner of fearlesssalarynegotiation.com, and basically does exactly what it says on the tin. Josh, great to talk to you again.Josh: Hey, Corey. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it and I'm glad to be here.Corey: So, you are, for those who have not heard me evangelize what you do—which is fine. No one listens to all of the backlog of episodes and whatnot—you are a salary negotiation coach, and you emphasize working with high earners who are negotiating new job offers, which is basically awesome. How did you stumble into this?Josh: Yeah, a good question. Really, it started as what I would say is a series of interesting career choices that I made, where I started as an engineer. I was pretty quickly bored in engineering and I switched to—I wanted to be customer-facing and do stuff that had impact on the business, so I did that and ended up working for a software company that made HR software that happened to do among other things, compensation planning. And so, I kind of started learning how it worked behind the scenes.And then over time, I started wising up and negotiating my own job offers. And noticed that wow that kind of worked pretty well, and I decided to write a book about it, a hundred percent just because I like to write stuff. I've been writing for 20 years on the internet, and I decided, why not just write a book about this? You know, five or six people will buy it, my mom will love it, I'll get it out there and it'll feel really good.And then people started reading the book and asking me if they could hire me to do the methodology in the book for them. And I said, “Sure.”Corey: When people try to give you money, say yes.Josh: Yeah. Okay, you know, whatever, you know? My first person that ever hired me asked me what my rate was, and I didn't have a rate because I had never considered doing that before. But she was a freelance writer and I said, “Well, whatever your rate is, that's my rate.” [laugh]. So, that was my first rate that I charged someone.And yeah, from there just, it took off as more people started hiring me. A number of friends were chirping in my ear that hey, you know, this seems like a really valuable thing that you're doing and people are coming out of the woodwork to ask you to do it for them. Maybe you should do that thing instead of the other things you're doing and trying to sell copies of the book and stuff like that. Like, why don't you just be a salary negotiation coach? That was, I don't know, like, seven years ago now, and here I am.Corey: I don't know if I ever told you this, but back when we met in the fall of 2016, I was trying to figure out what windmill I was going to tilt at before I stumbled upon the idea of AWS billing as being one of them. I thought that writing a book and being a sort of a coach of sorts on how to do job interviews with an emphasis, of course, on salary negotiation, would be a great topic for me because I've done it an awful lot. This is a byproduct of getting fired all the time because of my mouth. And then I started talking to you and my reaction was, “Oh, Josh is way better at this than I am. No, I'm going to go find something else instead.”And now the world is what it is, and honestly, at this point, all the cloud providers really wish you hadn't been there at that point in time because then they wouldn't have to deal with the nonsense that I present to them now. But I always had a high opinion of what you do, just because it is in such a sweet spot where if I were to shut this place down and get a quote-unquote, “Real job” somewhere, I would hire you. And it's not that I intellectually don't know how to negotiate. Half my consulting now is negotiating large AWS contracts on behalf of AWS customers with AWS. A lot of these things tend to apply and go very hand-in-glove.But there's something to be said for having someone who sees this all the time in a consistent ongoing basis, who is able to be dispassionate. Because when you're coaching someone, it's not you in the same boat. For you, it's okay, you want to have a happy customer, obviously, but for your client, it's suddenly, wow, this is the next stage of my career. This matters. The stakes are infinitely higher for them than they are for you.And that means you have the luxury of taking a step back and recognizing a bad deal when you see one. There is such value to that I can't imagine not engaging you or someone like you the next time that I would go about changing jobs. Although these days, it's probably an acquisition or I finally succumb to a cease and desist. I don't really know that I'm employable anymore.Josh: [laugh]. Yeah, I mean, you said a lot of really interesting things there. I think a common theme—you know, to work with me, there's a short application that people fill out, and very frequently in the application, there are a couple of open-ended questions about you know, how can I help you? What's your number one concern? That kind of stuff.And frequently, they'll say, “Yeah, I've negotiated before and I actually did okay, but I want to work with a professional this time,” is the gist of it, for I think reasons that you mentioned. And one of them is, there's just a difference between negotiating for yourself and feeling all of that pressure and having somebody who can just objectively look at it and say, “No, I think you should ask for this instead.” Or, “No, I don't think that you should give that information to the recruiter.” And the person instead of feeling, you know, personal subjective pressure can just say, “Well, the objective person that I hired and paid money to help me with this says, ‘don't do that,' or ‘do this instead,' and it's easier for me to just trust what they're doing as a professional and let me be a professional at the other things that I'm a professional at.”And so yeah, I think that's a lot of—you know, for some people, it's, “I have no idea how to negotiate. I don't want to screw this up. Please help me, Josh.” And for some people, it's, “Yeah, I've done this before. I did, okay, but I want you here to help me do this.”And that includes people who come back and work with me two or three times. They know the methodology. They've been through it literally with me, and I'm very open about what we're doing and why I'm collaborative with my clients. We're talking about the decisions we make. I will bounce things off of them.I'll say, “Here's what I think we should do. What does your intuition tell you about that? How do you feel about it?” Because it's important to me because they're in the game and I need to know what they think. And they'll come back to me and we'll do it again. They already know the playbook. And I think that's because it's easier to just have somebody who's a professional there to objectively tell you, “You're not asking for enough.” Or, “Did you think about asking for this instead?” Or, “Do you really care about that thing?” Stuff like that.Corey: There is so much value to that, just because it's a what's normal in this? Because I'm sure you've seen before where—I'm probably—I should put this in more of a question, but I already know the answer because I've seen it just from people randomly sending me things out on the internet—of their times for companies say or ask for things that are just absolute clown shoes. It's, I would barely consider it professional at that. It always feels like there's value in being able to talk to someone who sees this all the time who can say, “Hold on. That is absolutely not normal. That is not a reasonable question. That is not an expectation that any sensible person is going to have.” Because the failure mode otherwise is you think it's you.Josh: Yeah, part of my value prop is, you know, I know how to negotiate with companies. I'm not afraid of them. I've negotiated with Fortune 5 companies, come out way ahead—just as you do frequently—and I know the playbook that they're running. But part of it also is, you know, I have a compendium of recruiter responses. I know what they say, I know what their words mean, and so I can say things like, “Oh, here's what they actually mean when they ask you for that.”Or I can say, “That's weird.” Which, you know, if I've done 20 negotiations with this company and all of a sudden a recruiter says something that's weird, that makes my ears perk up and makes me wonder why. And so, I can dig in on my side and try and figure out what's going on, see if we tripped some wire that I didn't see or, you know, something like that. So, that's part of the value too, is just all the reps that I've had, even like you said, I'm sure that you would do a wonderful job negotiating; I've talked to you about negotiating online and off, and I know that you know the game, you know how to do it, for your day job but also for compensation. But I probably have more reps negotiating with those companies than you do and therefore my compendium is a little bit deeper, so there might be things that I could recognize that you would not recognize that I could see, right, in the similar way that in your negotiation world that there are things that I certainly would not recognize that you would catch on to.And I think that can be a very valuable thing. There could be something a recruiter says where I recognize, “Aha. That's a technical term or that's a key phrase that we can grab onto. And that is an opportunity to get more.”Corey: Or, “What are you making now?” It's like, yes, that's the industry accepted one free pass that's screwing the candidate. Yeah—Josh: Right.Corey: —let's not do that.Josh: Right. And we're—here's how to sidestep it and here's what happens when they ask for it for the fourth time, and here's what happens when they say the magic words and, you know, all that stuff. So yeah, a lot of it is just getting reps. It started with let me just run my playbook and then as I run the playbook, I get more data every time I do it, and I get to learn what the edge cases look like, and how to spot, you know, weird funky stuff coming from recruiters and that sort of thing.Corey: One aspect of this that has been, I guess, capturing my imagination since you first talked to me about it, and I am certain I'm going to butcher this into something that sounds insulting and demeaning, which sort of cuts against the entire point. Specifically, the idea of a positive language, or, the term you used was ‘Positively Persuasive.' What is that? Because it sounds like it's just someone who's setting me up, like, waving raw steak in front of a tiger, like, “Please maul me on this.” But there is more to it than that.Josh: [laugh]. Yeah, so this is something that, to be honest with you, I have done almost intuitively throughout my career, but certainly as a salary negotiation coach. And what it is, is a tendency to use positive, meaning, you know, not negative words. So like, essentially, if you're familiar at all with improv, which I would say probably half of the people listening probably have some idea what I'm talking about, you take improv classes, and they teach you an exercise called Yes, And. And the reason you do Yes, And is, you know, Corey says something wacky and I could shut it down.I could say, “That's not true.” You know, “My hair isn't red.” And then we're done improving. But if Corey says, “Josh your hair is red,” even if my hair is not red and I say, “Yes, and… it's on fire right now,” then we have something going, right? And so, using those positive words—yes, and is a positive way of responding to that—opens up a further dialog and also makes it easier for you to engage with me in that improvisation. In a way, a negotiation is an improvisation; they're all going to be different.A business conversation is going to be an improvisation. It's rare that you're going to have a conversation where you could write the script completely before the conversation starts. Often there will be an opportunity to improv, to do something different. And so, positively persuasive is essentially my way of thinking about how to use those positive words to accomplish an objective while building rapport with the person that you're talking to, and leaving the door open for that kind of positive collaboration and improvisation where you can work together with your co-party, with the person that you're talking to in the negotiation. And so, that's super abstract, and a concrete example of this would be for example, in a counteroffer email.Frequently people will, kind of unsolicited, just send me their counteroffer emails. “I'm writing up this email. What do you think?” Somebody on my newsletter or my email list or something. And sometimes they're okay, and sometimes it's like, they're giving an ultimatum and they're saying, “You promised this when we first talked on the phone and you're not giving me that. You offered me this and I want what you offered to start with.”And they're using all these negative words: “You promised this and didn't give it to me.” “That's not what I expected.” Whereas in the counteroffers that I'm writing, it says, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” Starts right away with something that looks like a throwaway line, a platitude, but really what it is is saying, “Hey, we're on the same team here. We're collaborating. Thanks for the offer. I appreciate it and I hope you're having a good week so far.”And then as it goes on, it says, “Here are the reasons that I'm super valuable to your team. I can't wait to join this team and, you know, express that value.” And then, “You offered $100,000. I would be more comfortable if we could settle on $115,000.” And so, that's a counteroffer. In some cases, the counter will be more than 15%. That's kind of a middle-of-the-road one, but the way I say it is, “I would be more comfortable if,” and so there's no sort of in-your-face, there's no ultimatum, there's no fist pounding on the desk—Corey: There's no, “No.” There's no, “This is not acceptable.” There's no, “I won't accept this.” It's a very soft approach that generally doesn't put people on edge.Josh: Puts it—it not only doesn't put them on edge, but you're sort of putting your arm around them saying, “Hey, you know, I'd be more comfortable if we could do this.” And they're like, “Okay, you know, let me see what I can do for you.” So, you're not making—you're not turning them into, you know, an enemy combatant; you're turning them into a collaborator. And now it's you and then working together to try to make you comfortable so that you can join their team. So, that's a subtle thing that happens in a counteroffer email and numerous other places.But that's the idea is that when you can, you're choosing positive language so that your requests will be received better, so you build rapport with the person that you're negotiating with, and so that they perceive you to be a collaborator and not an opponent.Corey: It sounds hokey, but I've also watched it work. It's weird in that we hear about things like this, we think, “Oh, that wouldn't work on me at all,” except it the evidence very clearly shows that it does. There's a reason that some people are considered charismatic and I think this is a large part of it. And I also wonder, I mean, you focus on salary negotiation for high earners, and that, historically at least, as included, you know, a fair few number of software developers and whatnot. And these days, let's be very clear that communicating what you want, clearly, concisely, and in an understandable way that something or someone can action is such a lost foreign skill for some of these people that they call the entire field ‘prompt engineering' because just communicate clearly is apparently a microaggression when you ask an engineer to do it without giving it a fancy name. Improved communication really feels like it has been part of a dawning awareness lately that, wait, this is actually important, not just one of those box-checking items that you say so that people don't spit in your food.Josh: I think you're a hundred percent right about that. I mean, it's interesting is you think about, you know, forms of communication that we have kind of experienced over the past, you know, however many years. But you know, at first, there was no writing, over, you know, thousands of years ago, or whatever, it was just all kind of oral tradition. And then we had writing and it was, like, long-form writing. And then, you know, fast forward to today and it's like you're sending a text with two letters and that means something right, or I'm about to head to my friend's house, and I text him three letters: OMW, right?It's like, extremely terse, direct, and to the point. And there is a place for that, I think. I think that efficiency probably has some benefits. I mean, there's not a lot of reason for me to spend six minutes, you know, writing a text to tell somebody that I'm heading to their house. But on the other hand, I think that sort of concision, that terse writing can also lose a lot in translation, and as we're using more media that look like Slack, or Discord, or these other chat-based ways of communicating—including email, by the way; I mean, email can be a place where you can be as terse, or I guess, as pleonastic as you'd like—and you get more and more words in there.And so, I think it's important to be intentional with those words in contexts where tone and meaning and intent can matter. And a lot of that is in interpersonal communication. And again, it's about how messages are received and what you're conveying. I use a lot of—this is [laugh] not directly related—I use a lot of emoji and emoticons and stuff like that and I do that because I'm trying to convey tone in a medium that doesn't really facilitate it, right?If I'm talking to you, you and I can see each other's faces right now, so you know if I'm being sarcastic, or telling a joke, or being very serious. And so, in emails, I'll put a smiley face. And that's me saying, “Hey, I'm not laying this on real thick. I'm just letting you know.” Right? So anyway, there are so many media that are available to us now that make it hard to convey tone that I think a lot of it is you've got to be intentional with your tone.Corey: I have worked with more people over the course of my career that have what I've taken the call being the asshole-in-email problem, where I have—I think these people are just these absolute jerks. They are completely onerous to deal with and I despise dealing with these people, but then I'll sit down with them and they are the nicest people and they are incredibly competent and effective. They just have a challenge where whatever they write an email, it sounds like there's an implicit, “Listen up here dickhead…” that they're starting the email with.Josh: [laugh]. Yeah.Corey: And, “You know what your problem is…” may as well be how they open these things. And it feels like effectively communicating and tone is becoming something of a lost art. I've talked to multiple people now who will wind up using Chat-Gippity to construct the bones of a work email and then they'll just change a sentence or two in the center that actually is the substantive thing that they want to send so it winds up handling all the window-dressing there. Now, I'm wondering what the other side is going to look like when you have someone using Chat-Gippity to paste a work email into it. It's like, “Okay, strip out the flattery. What are they actually asking from me here?” So, you effectively have, like, an API layer of padding provided by computers, where you could just like, say, the direct thing, but it comes with all the flowerly accouterments that has become expected in business correspondence.Josh: Yeah. I mean, I love everything that you said there. It's true. I mean, I've worked with people in the past where they would send me an email, or I would email with them frequently and then we were talking in person, I realized that oh, I totally misread what they were saying. Like, I misread what they meant to say, I misread what their outcome, their preferred outcome was, and it's because the tone is just lost in email.And I don't think it was necessarily due to any sort of deficiency on their side. It was on—they have a way of communicating, I have a way of perceiving communications, and they were different, and so the message that I got was different. So, I think a lot of what I'm talking about with positively persuasive is how do I communicate in a way where it is not ambiguous, where it is very clear what I'm saying, what my intent is, what my tone is. And sometimes, like you said, [laugh] use ChatGPT to, like, strip out the flattery. I put the flattery in because I want them to know, like, “Look, I know that you're a person. You and I are on the same team here. We're working together.”So, a lot of my emails will open with, “Hey, hope you're having a good day.” And it's like, do I care if they're having a good day? Yeah, but I don't need to say that out loud. The reason I'm saying it out loud is I want them—the opposite of everything you just described where I want them to read that email and think, “Okay, Josh isn't coming at me. Even if he does have critiques of something that I'm doing, or he has a suggestion to improve something, he's coming at it from the place of, ‘Hey, I hope you're having a good day so far.'” Whatever I say at the beginning of the email.And so, that's filler, a hundred percent, but it's filler with a purpose that is meant to convey the tone of the email, that is, I'm not coming down on you too hard. I'm trying to convey a message or ask a question and sincerely curious, and can we come together on this to figure out what the solution is or to move forward or to find the next steps or whatever the thing is that we're trying to do?Corey: It feels like this is an area that has massive application beyond the obvious negotiation piece of it, which is fundamentally where we sit down and try and convince people to do a thing that we want them to do that is in our interest. But it's like, okay, well, that's not just negotiation. That is, on some level, a disturbing number of human interactions that we tend to have. Where do you see this being applied? Is it something that just—that you're looking at just through a lens of communicating effectively in a salary negotiation, or does it extend beyond that to your worldview?Josh: I think it can get pretty broad. I mean, as you were describing, I was thinking kind of, as you were talking, like, when else do I use this? And the answer is a lot. But one place that I use this kind of thing a lot is when I'm emailing people who I don't know, and trying to get them to either just give me something or to allow me more leeway than they otherwise necessarily have to allow. And so for—here, I'll give you an example, which is, I recently switched homeowners insurance providers because I live in Florida and homeowner's insurance in Florida is a nightmare.And so, I changed providers. I thought I had crossed all my t's and dotted all my I's, but there was something that fell between the cracks, and that is that the mortgage holder—the bank that holds my mortgage—hadn't sent the premium check to my new insurance provider. They didn't get that memo. And it was essentially my responsibility, but I kind of goofed. So, the bank writes me an email and they say, “Hey, we see you changed providers but we don't have an address for them. We can't send them a check. Can you give it to me?”And so, now I'm—there are two parties that I have to kind of keep on my side. One of them is obviously the bank, but also the insurance provider, who might be mad at me because I'm ten days late on this premium or whatever. So, my emails to them are places where I use this where it's like, I'm basically going to make it so that the person who could get mad at me and cause me some kind of detriment is going to have to do it through a really thick cloud of, “Josh is a nice guy who isn't trying to be a jerk to anybody here. He's not trying to pull one over on anybody. There was an honest mistake that was made, he's just trying to make everything right, and he's hoping that I can help them.”And they're going to have to look at the way that I communicate with them and they're going to have to push through it and say, “Nope. I'm going to be a jerk. I'm going to follow the letter of the law or I'm going to be as punitive as I can be.” That's really hard to do when somebody like me is emailing, say, “Hey, listen, I know that we were supposed to get a check out to you last week. I'm working on it right now. I've already got everything to the bank. It's going to be overnighted to you tonight. Is there anything else I could do to make this easy for you on your side?”And then they're going to be like, “No, just, you know, as soon as we get it, we'll let you know.” Whereas if I'm, like, you know, mad at them or I'm mad at somebody or I'm being a jerk in email, then they don't really have any reason to not be as punitive as they can be to me. And so, that's just—it's a little manipulative, I guess, but it's also the way that I see life, right? Like, I'm like that with everyone, including people who are on the other side of that equation. I'm going to give them grace when I can.And so, it's a way of me saying, “Hey, can you extend some grace to me? I think you're a human being who's on the other side of this and you have a job to do and I understand that, and if you could be a little bit kind to me, that would be great.” And it works almost every time.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Panoptica.  Panoptica simplifies container deployment, monitoring, and security, protecting the entire application stack from build to runtime. Scalable across clusters and multi-cloud environments, Panoptica secures containers, serverless APIs, and Kubernetes with a unified view, reducing operational complexity and promoting collaboration by integrating with commonly used developer, SRE, and SecOps tools. Panoptica ensures compliance with regulatory mandates and CIS benchmarks for best practice conformity. Privacy teams can monitor API traffic and identify sensitive data, while identifying open-source components vulnerable to attacks that require patching. Proactively addressing security issues with Panoptica allows businesses to focus on mitigating critical risks and protecting their interests. Learn more about Panoptica today at panoptica.app.Corey: There's value as well, even everyday customer service interactions, if I have a bad customer experience buying something off of Amazon—I know, imagine that.j could that ever happen? Of course not. But in a magical world in which in hypothetically did, I can call up and they answer the phone, I'm probably going to be pretty steamed going into that conversation because this is effort I didn't want to have to deal with. But stop and think about it for a second. Usually, when I call Amazon for a variety of things, it's not Andy Jassy who's answering the phone. Those are atypical moments for me.Instead, it is generally some poor customer service schmo, who is basically given zero amount of autonomy to speak of in the course of their job, and surprisingly, does not set Amazon's strategic priorities for them. And if I unload on this person, maybe I make myself feel better, I've made someone else's day actively worse, but even if you want to set aside the story of being a good person—which I don't suggest people do—but view it in a purely Machiavellian self-serving way, you're still going to have a better outcome if you inspire people to like you by making yourself likable. Because when you're a jerk—and I used to work helpdesk; I remember how this works—Josh: Me, too.Corey: Suddenly, I will fall back on every policy that I can have, “Oh, we're not allowed to sit through a reboot. Bye.” As opposed to, “Eh, [unintelligible 00:22:31] say ever not to, but I'm enjoying this and I want to help you out and make sure you get there, so hang out. Why not?” There are ways people can bend the rules in your favor, but if you give them an excuse to fall back on that, they're not going to go out of their way to help you at all. They're going to make you go through every bit of procedural red tape they can possibly come up with. And again, you've made their day worse and that should not be lost on you. The outcomes are better for everyone when you're a nice person.Josh: As you were talking, it's funny because I remembered, maybe the most frustrated I've ever been talking to customer service. This is several years—many years ago, but I had some student loan stuff going on. I don't even remember specifically what it was, but it had to do with, you know, who was servicing the loan and I'm trying to pay off a loan and I can't get the right person on the phone and they say, you know, “It's this other place that owns that holds the loan.” Or, “You need to call this person,” and I'm getting the runaround and I'm not able to do the thing I want to do.And after I think I've been hung up on, like, three times, and I was really steamed. Like you said, I'm legitimately, like, very frustrated. My voice had been cracking a little bit, which is how I know I'm, like, really getting heated is my [laugh] voice will start to crack a little bit. But I said to the person—and I became conscious in that moment of like, okay, I'm very frustrated. I could say something I regret I could really, like, hurt this person that I'm talking to.As you said, they're just somebody who's a customer service representative for this bank or loan servicer, whoever they were. So, I said something like, “Listen, you can't hear it in the tone of my voice right now, but I need you to know that I'm extremely frustrated and I'm going to [laugh] I'm going to get really upset, and so I'm asking you to help me before I do that before I escalate. I don't want to talk to your manager, but I'm going to ask you to do that if you don't help me right now. And you should know that I'm super frustrated. My voice is not betraying that right now, but understand that I am.”And they snapped in and they were like, “Okay, I get it, I get it,” you know? And right there even as a place where I could have just started shouting at them or whatever it takes, you know, “I want to talk to your manager,” and, “I'm going to escalate,” and all this stuff. And instead, I was like, well, I'm going to give them one last chance, which is, let me just tell them how frustrated I am without using colorful language or mean words. And it worked. It was a subtle thing that actually, I think it got their attention more than anything else. They said, “Oh, this person is really angry. I should actually listen to them.”Corey: Now, there is a dark side to this as well and that is human nature. I have done experiments on this over the years, most notably on Twitter, back when that was the central place people went to, and when I would say something nice about an AWS service, it got in most cases two likes and maybe a bot would retweet it. Whereas if I say, “This AWS service is a piece of garbage,” and I come up with some reason for it, it went around the internet three times and it was misconstrued, with me saying, “The entirety of AWS is terrible.” Not usually, no. There are some frustrating elements, but yeah, there's context. It doesn't fit into a single tweet.The snarky negativity blows up and responds to—and resonates with something in human nature that the people love spreading that around and engaging with it, whereas the happy positivity does not work that way. On Twitter. I've noticed what seems to be the opposite effect on LinkedIn. Snark doesn't do well over there, but almost saccharine-sweet sincerity does. And I don't know what this says about various social media channels or human nature or what. All I know is that I'm confused.Josh: I think you're right. You know, I mean, as you were talking, I was thinking about clickbait, right? Like, there's a reason that clickbait is called what it is, and it's because you read it and you get annoyed or frustrated or angry, and I'm going to hate-read this article right now and I'm going to send it to six friends. There is something in human nature. I mean, you know, we talked—for decades, I've heard about how the local news is our news, “If it bleeds, it leads,” in news, right?We're not talking about how great the planet is or how things—like, this bad thing happened in New Orleans yesterday and you should be really upset about it, or wherever that place happens to be on that particular day. I do think there is something innate in us that allows us to gravitate towards those kinds of things and I have no idea what it is. But it is interesting, as you said, that there are places where either that's frowned upon or there's just a different mode of communication, which tells me that there's something sort of in the cultural water there that causes people to perceive stuff differently in different kinds of social media environments, right? Twitter definitely is a place where things can go pretty negative. And there are other places that are significantly more negative, right, on the internet, if you want to go, they get really bad, and then there's places that are really positive.And it's interesting how it's like a maybe people self-select into those places, but also, I think, you know, I think there's a big difference if you think about, like, who's using Twitter and why and who's using LinkedIn and why. I think that people correctly perceive on LinkedIn that for the most part, you're probably not going to be somebody that's at the top of a bunch of lists to be hired if your whole thing on LinkedIn is just being negative all the time and doom and gloom and snark and that kind of thing. It'll be entertaining to some people, but you're probably not going to get many job offers based on that because people are going to ask, “Do I want to work with this person 24 hours a day?” And they'll read your posts and say, “No,” whereas at least a saccharine sweet person, everybody knows those people who are like that in real life, and they can be I don't know, a little bit much, but also can generally be very good people to work with and it's not difficult to sort of like manage that.Corey: There's a lot that can be done just by having people want to help you. It's weird. Like, I take a look at some of the people that I identify publicly as the nicest in tech—Mark [unintelligible 00:27:48] is a good example. Kelsey Hightower is sort of the canonical example of all of this. These are just genuinely nice people. Ashley Willis, another good example.There are so many different folks out there who are just beacons of positivity. And I look at that, and it's like, first, that is admirable. Second, holy hell that is absolutely not me. No one is ever going to say, “That's what I love about Corey. He's so uplifting and positive all the time.” You know, I do strive to be a better person and inspire others to be better people, but I'm also willing to spare no quarter for corporate tomfoolery either. Which apparently means a lot of people think you're a jerk as a result. I'll take it.Josh: Yeah, I think it's, you know, everybody—that's the nice thing about humans, right, is we're all different. And there are lots of different types of person—if everybody had the same personality, what a boring place that we would live. And that's true for, more or less, any human characteristic. If we were all the same and vanilla, I think it would be pretty boring. So, I think that having really positive people out there is great, and having some people who are snarky is great, and having people who have, you know, an ability to just point out absurdity is great. If everyone is pointing out absurdity all the time, then we're not left with too much.So, I do think it's good that those people are out there and they're very positive. And I think that, you know, even for myself, like, I try to be positive and helpful. Like, we were talking about customer service. I'm like, overly nice to customer service people. I tip more than I should most of the time. And a lot of that is just, you know, that's a human; they have needs and feelings and this is a way for me to be kind to them.And I know most people don't think that way that I do. And I like that. And I think that some people don't think that way and I think that's totally fine, too. I think the variety is the spice of life and I think that makes it interesting and useful. I also think that being intentional with those different modes, having them all available to you, and exercising them in different environments can be, like, a level-up, right? It can be a superpower.You can either be a person with a personality who exercises that same personality all the time, or you can choose to exercise, sort of, different personalities or different ways of communicating or different levels of positivity or negativity in different environments. And I think that makes it even more interesting where you're able to essentially be a chameleon and find the right mode of communication for the environment or the situation that you're in, which can enhance that situation for you or for other people that are around you.Corey: I have to ask, do you find that this is something you do all the time or do you put on your negotiating phrasing the same way that I do when my children accuse me of putting on ‘podcast voice.'Josh: All the time, definitely not. I am aware of it as a way of communicating that's available to me and I do consciously use it a lot of the time. But you know, if I'm just sitting around with my buddies on, you know, Wednesday night watching the game, probably not. And a lot of that is because, you know, part of this is, it's a default to positive because you don't know sort of who's on the other end of the line, whereas if you're communicating with somebody that you've communicated with for hundreds of hours, you don't need all that stuff, you don't need all the tonal indicators and the padding and all that stuff because you know that person. So, a lot of what I'm describing, even like in a salary negotiation, I'm basically working from the default of I don't know the counterparty, I don't know the recruiter, and therefore we're going to default to positive, and that's going to essentially, you know, make things smoother.It's going to remove friction because there are things that I don't know, whereas, you know, if I'm communicating with somebody I know really well for 20 years, we don't need all that stuff. We can—that's where the shorthand can come in handy. It can be really useful because we already know all of the background there. One place that I'm very conscious of this is, you know, every now and then somebody, with a personal friend or somebody that I know, well, I'll have, like, a difficult conversation where they'll say, “Hey, you know, this is something that happened to me recently. Can you help me out?” Or, “This is a difficult thing that I'm going through.”And that's a place where I am very conscious of this and it comes in different ways. One of them is using positive words, but one of them is also just, like, exercising extreme sympathy or empathy if it's appropriate. Which is, again, it's a conscious decision to say, this isn't a time to point out, you know, for example, errors, or like, this person just needs someone that they want to talk to and I'm going to listen to them carefully, I'm going to try to give them reassurance that the situation will be resolved eventually, and that kind of thing, but it's not a time for you know, critique or, you know, negative words or pointing out flaws and that kind of thing. And so, I think that's also kind of a conscious place that I will exercise it. But to answer your question, no, I don't do this all the time.I would say without having ever thought about this before, the less familiar I am with the person or the situation, the more I will default to this, and the more familiar I am with the person or the situation, the less I will default to it. And I will just use more plain, kind of, direct language because that familiarity is there, and it assumes a lot that isn't there when I don't know the person well.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me about this. Where can people go to learn more?Josh: Maybe follow me on Twitter [laugh], @joshdoody on Twitter.Corey: It's a harder problem these days than it once was.Josh: Yeah. I really paused there. I am pretty active on LinkedIn these days. And fearlesssalarynegotiation.com isn't explicitly about positive language or being positively persuasive, but you'll see even just reading the articles that I write there that underlying most of what I write is this sort of implicit understanding that positivity is the way to make progress and to get closer to what your goals are. So, @joshdoody on Twitter; joshdoody on LinkedIn, of course, and then fearlesssalarynegotiation.com.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to all of this in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Josh: Thanks for having me on, Corey. This was a lot of fun. I always like talking to you.Corey: I do, too. Josh [laugh] Doody, owner of Fearless Salary Negotiation. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that rants itself sick, but also only uses positive language.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Josh Doody, Owner of Fearless Salary Negotiation, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how to successfully negotiate your salary, and why it's important to do so even in times of economic uncertainty. Corey and Josh chat about some of the hidden reasons why salary negotiation is critical to job seekers, and what goes into determining salary bands behind the scenes. Josh also reveals why he feels there's some stagnancy in the big tech job market, and why it's critical for job seekers to have a balanced view of the value that they provide to employers when negotiating salary. Josh also describes some of the unexpected ways salary negotiations can come up throughout the interview process, and how to best handle the discomfort of negotiation. About JoshJosh is a salary negotiation coach who works with senior software engineers and engineering managers to negotiate job offers with big tech companies. He also wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation: A Step-by-Step Guide to Getting Paid What You're Worth, and recently launched Salary Negotiation Mastery to help folks who aren't able to work with him 1-on-1.Links Referenced: Company website: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/joshdoody LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code they write, but also the containers and cloud infrastructure their apps run on. And probably the billing on top of that - which is neither here nor there. And a big part of that responsibility is app security — from code to cloud.That's where Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets teams where they are, automating application security controls across their existing tools, workflows, and the AWS application stack — including seamless integrations with AWS CodePipeline, Amazon EKS, Amazon Inspector and several others.Deploy on AWS. Secure with Snyk. Learn more at snyk.co/scream. That's S-N-Y-K-dot-C-O/scream. And my thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I have a returning guest today who hasn't been on for a couple of years, at least. Josh Doody is the owner of fearlesssalarynegotiation.com and focuses on a problem that's near and dear to my heart from my previous life as an employee, salary negotiation, specifically emphasizing software engineers, if I have that right. Josh, thanks for joining me.Josh: Yeah. You have it exactly right. It's great to be here, and good to talk to you again, Corey.Corey: I used to be practiced at doing salary negotiations, which is a very roundabout way of saying I got fired a lot, so I got lots of practice at doing it. And I found that it was a very strange experience that was completely orthogonal to anything else that I did in the course of my day-to-day. Now, of course, I you know, negotiate AWS bills for a living among many other things, and do a lot of sales work, and yeah okay, now it's a lot more germane. But back in my engineering life, it was the one time I got to really negotiate that wasn't, you know, haggling with some vendor somewhere when I'm trying to buy a burrito, was salary negotiation, and I felt utterly unprepared for it.Josh: Yeah, I think most people feel that way and you summarized pretty well why that is. And that's, you know, let's say you have a really robust career, you're around for decades, you know, you're working in lots of companies, you might have, I don't know, let's say ten, a dozen job offers that you negotiate, you know, give or take. And that's not very many reps for doing something that's as consequential as, you know, negotiating your actual pay. Which, depending on how senior you are, could be literally negotiating, like, you know, multiple cars' worth of value per year that you're going to [laugh] that you're going to earn. But you don't get the reps, so most people just kind of—I think they kind of don't even think about it until they have to think about it until it's directly in front of them. And then they just kind of power through it, get it over with or even totally ignore it and just get back to the thing that they're doing in their career, which is why you show up to work.Corey: It feels, on some level, like it's one of those areas where people wind up thinking about it long after they really should have. These days, it feels like salary negotiation process, more or less should start when you start debating, huh, maybe I'll change jobs. Like, it feels like it's really that early, not when you have an offer sitting in your inbox that needs a response by the end of the week. Right, wrong, or am I just thinking about this in ridiculous ways?Josh: No, I think you're right. So, you can start thinking about it, you know, you get a job offer in your inbox and you can start thinking how do I negotiate this now, but you know, you're going to be in a less secure position to do a strong negotiation at that moment than you would have had you begun thinking about it when you mentioned, which is, like, you're actually thinking about changing jobs, or, you know, maybe you just got a cold call from a recruiter and they're at a company that you're kind of interested in working with. So, maybe I will talk to this recruiter instead of just blocking them or whatever. And so, the whole process can begin at that moment when they say, “Hey, you know, we have this opportunity that we think you might be interested in. What do you think?”And then, you know, early on, they'll even kind of officially start the negotiation, at least in my mind, where they'll say, “But before we really go too far on this, like, what are you hoping to make here? You know, what are your salary expectations if you come work here?” And you're kind of off to the races at that moment. But even if they don't say that out loud, that's something that you should be thinking about from the beginning, which is, you know, maybe most broadly, how do I position myself to get the best possible version of the job offer that they're willing to give and to leave myself the most latitude to improve that job offer to be the maximum that they can afford to pay me or the maximum that their budget allows or however you want to frame that. So, short answer, yeah, I think you're right that most people think about it as sort of an afterthought, either after they've already started a job and they go, “Huh, I wonder if that guy over there is making more than I am?” Or, you know, “Shoot. I think I moved too fast there. Maybe I should have done something a little bit better.” When they could think about it way earlier in the process than that.Corey: Since I was last on the job market, there have been some changes, at least here in California, that have had a somewhat significant impact, to my understanding. First, job salary changes need to be posted in job ads, which I think is great—and that's occurring in a number of different states—and also it is now against the law, in California—or at least against public policy—to ask what someone's current compensation is and your salary history and dive into that. Now, that's all well and good, but I also have been asked a number of questions that are not exactly… green, when it comes to being in the middle of an interview. And, “You're not legally allowed to ask me that question,” is that a heck of a pushback.Josh: Yeah, I think that I've had a couple conversations about this recently, but also over the past few years, especially on the—you know, you mentioned the two prongs of that idea: what's your current salary, what are you making now? And, you know, what is the salary that you expect to make? And so, kind of one by one, states are outlawing potential employers' ability to ask about what you're currently making. And then I've also heard some agitation lately that there might be some federal legislation that's coming down that might just kind of take that off the table. As you mentioned, recruiters, companies, organizations, however you want to model them are very clever, and so there are always ways, you know, even if they're indirect questions, you know, you don't ask them what they're currently making, but you ask them something that gives you some insight into what they currently might be thinking.Also, if you're in the big tech world—which you mentioned you negotiate AWS contracts—in the big tech world, they don't necessarily have to ask you what you're currently making if they know that you're an L4 software engineer at Google. They can probably approximate it pretty well. And of course, they know that because you're going to have to tell them, you know, with a resume or when you're interviewing, that's kind of how you get in the door. So, that's an interesting thing. But I still say, avoid that. Try to avoid giving him as much information as possible.And I think the most important thing with the current salary idea is, you just don't want to say it out loud. You want to make sure that they can't quite grab onto that because you make it too easy for them when they know what your current salary is to just do sort of a cost-plus version of offering you a job, which is, “Well, you're making this much now. We'll just add 10% to that,” and that's your new job offer, when you know, that's not how you level up quickly and in big ways.And then you mentioned the salary expectations. I do think it's great that a lot of job offers now will have a salary range in them. That's a question that I see a lot is, like, how do I know that I'm not going to waste 25 hours of my personal time and maybe a trip across the country for a job, where when they finally make the offer, it's just laughably low? And the answer is, you know, hopefully, they have something that you can grab onto in the actual job description that says, here's what the range looks like. But even then, you'll notice if you look carefully—I saw one yesterday, and I don't remember where I saw it, but it was like, “Yeah, our range of salary is, you know, 120k up to 290k, depending on geographic region.”And it's like… I mean, technically, that's a salary range, but they don't tell you what the regions are, how they map, and all that stuff. So, you're not getting a lot of information there; you're just getting sort of an approximate number. But it's still helpful to know that information. And it's also helpful to not disclose that information. If you have a number in mind that you're hoping for, it's not in your best interest to share that with the company.So, I think at least what you can do is look at the job description. If they have some kind of a range, take a look at it, see if it feels like, okay, this is something I can work with or if it's just, you know, there's no way that that would ever work for me and you can just pass on it and save yourself some time.Corey: For me, one of the things that always frustrated me was that at the start of looking into a job, there's always the big question that they ask that has been the socially acceptable paths at screwing you over, and the knowing how to answer that is important. But I still bungled it a number of times whenever I was out of practice, which is quite simply, “Okay, what is it that you expect to make in your next role? What are your compensation requirements?” And it feels like answering that at the beginning of the process just completely sets your course for how the rest of that process is going to go.Josh: It does and it's something that's very subtle and clever because most people will not perceive that to be a negotiation tactic when it is. And also you mentioned earlier in the context of, like, asking you what your current salary is that it can be perceived as sort of a gatekeeping question. Like you mentioned, you know, you're in the middle of an interview and somebody pops a question at you like, “What is your [laugh] what's your current salary?” And you're looking at an interviewer and you're thinking, “If I don't give him this information, then I'm saying no to an interviewer, and how's that going to go over?”This is the same kind of thing. When, you know, at any point in the process, they might ask you what your salary expectations are, it could be on the first screening call, it could be right before, they like to hold this till right before they make an offer where you go through the whole interview process and then right before they're going to extend an offer, they say, “Hey, you know, I'm going to go to the hiring committee and make a recommendation that we hire. But before I do that, you know, what are you hoping to make if we actually do extend an offer and I go talk to the comp team?” And it can feel like, well, gosh, I better tell them the answer to that question because they literally just said, basically, like, “I have an offer for you, but first, I need this information from you.” And it can feel really kind of daunting to say, “No, I'm not going to give you that.”So, the question is, you know, should you give them that and how? You shouldn't, as I mentioned earlier. Giving them salary expectations, I'll give kind of a brief summary of why it's not a good idea. I think a good way to reframe that question, you know, what are you what are you hoping to make if you join our team, is, you know, “Hey, you know, we have a giant company here. We've got tens of thousands of employees. We've got thousands of engineers that are at your level and doing your kind of work. We have salary surveys that we run once a quarter, or once a month, that are super expensive. We know what everybody else in the industry is doing. We know what the value of this role is to our company. We know how many other people are applying for this job. We know how many open seats we have. You don't know any of that stuff, but even though you don't know any of that stuff, why don't you take a wild guess what we would pay you to do this job at this company at this moment?”Corey: And then of course, we're going to use it against you later, when you wind up having what you view as a negotiation, like, “Ah, but you said at the beginning of the process that this would be sufficient.”Josh: Yeah. So, that's the problem, right? As you take that wild guess and you're going to do one of two things. It's basically 0% that you're going to hit the nail on the head in terms of you guessed the actual maximum compensation that they would pay you to do the job, it's very unlikely.Corey: You're either going to guess too high and then basically get yourself disqualified—Josh: Yeah.Corey: —you're going to get too low and leave money on the table, or you're going to get it exactly right, but you'll never know whether you got it exactly right or whether you guessed low.Josh: Right. Even if you do guess exactly right, you won't know that you did. And so, of course, if you guess low, like you said, you leave money on the table. And the really pernicious thing is, you could guess low and still feel great about the result and never know it or not find out until the next time you get a job, which is to say, you know, you say a number that's well below the bottom of the minimum that they could pay you and so you say, I don't know, to use round numbers, you say $100,000. And they go, “Great, how about 120?”And you say, “Wow, they must really like me. They're going to pay, I just said 100 and they said 120. That's amazing.” And really what's going on is they're looking at, you know, their internal pay structure and they're like, we can't pay less than 120, like, the pay structure starts at 120. So, we'll pay 120, which is the literal bottom that you could make.You feel like you got a huge win of a 20% bump, but the reality is, you're probably not anywhere near the middle of that pay range and you're way behind the eight ball already. And of course, you could overshoot. And the worst-case scenario is you overshoot so far that you basically disqualify yourself from the process early. So, it's like, if it's on that first screening call, and you say—Corey: And they view you as being fundamentally unserious, where it's a, okay, the compensation for this role is 100 to 130, for example—to use made-up numbers—and you come in asking for 340. It's… okay like, there's no point in even doing a counter and having a negotiation at this point. We are so far apart, that it doesn't work out that way.Josh: Right, which on the surface, seems like oh, well, I just saved a bunch of time. But in reality, what you may have done is sort of like knocked yourself out of the entire hiring funnel for them, when what could have happened is perhaps you could have as you interviewed, you could have aligned better with a more senior role that would have had a higher pay range that you would have been a better fit for, you could have changed their budget based on the way that you present in your interviews and what they perceive from you. And who knows, maybe you actually do get an offer that looks like 340 because they say, “Oh, wow, we had you leveled as a, you know, an L6 and really should be, like, at an L7. So, how about this, you know, this senior or principal or lead role over here that we've been trying to fill for six months, we now realize you might be a good fit for that role. Why don't you go talk to that hiring manager, and if we have to, we'll just put you into that hiring stream?” Instead of, you set a giant number and we got to kick you out because there's no room for you here.Corey: This is all well and good and we're talking about effectively cash comp and salaries, but so many companies these days seem to tie a fair part of their compensation to the equity portion of it. And because remember, everything's up and to the right. Always. The end. Until one day, it's very much not.And now we're taking a look and seeing that, for example, Amazon stock has largely been in the toilet for a couple of years. It's what, 50% off of what it was at the peak.Josh: Yeah.Corey: So it's, on some level, when you're negotiating comp, it feels like you're being asked to predict the future of how well the company does. And at these multibillion-dollar company scales, are you really going to be in a position personally to meaningfully impact the stock price? Like, well, not positively anyway. And it just feels like it's a bit of a shell game where if you can't spot the sucker, it's probably you. Because I wanted to be an engineer, not a stockbroker.Josh: Yeah, I mean, first of all, you're right, that no individual engineer is really going to be impacting the bottom line of Google.Corey: Unless I take the site down.Josh: Right. Well, I was just [laugh]—man, you beat me to the punch on that one. Yeah. So, there is a possibility that one engineer could have a dramatic impact, but not the kind that you would hope if [laugh] you're also tied to their stock price, right? So, there's a couple of ways that I think about this.One of them, you mentioned the Amazon stock going down. So, one thing that's really interesting about that is really what Amazon is doing is they're targeting a total annual compensation number with their stock. And so, they start with their current known stock value—I don't know if they're doing this now, but for many years, they were just kind of building in a year-over-year growth number of 10 to 15%. So, we're going to give you this much total comp and we're targeting 300k total comp per year. And if you kind of map it out based on the base salary and the equity that vests and the signup bonuses they give you in years one and two, then it looks like a pretty flat, like, 300k a year when you build in that stock growth.So, the magic question that I started talking to—and had a couple of internal recruiter friends, like, last year, mid-year last year when things were looking pretty bad, and the question that I don't think that they had an answer to at the time and now they have answered is, well, what do we do when the stock doesn't grow 10 to 15% and actually kind of collapses, like, takes a huge nosedive? And the answer is that Amazon is still targeting a total comp of 300k a year. And they go back and they say, “Well, here's some more RSUs at the current value to kind of makeup for that. Here's your new vesting schedule on these.” They essentially are giving refreshers, and here's the new vesting schedule.And so, at least in Amazon's case, they did kind of try to right the ship. But the reason is that something you alluded to, you're not really getting equity in the company because you impact the company; you're getting equity in the company because it's another way for them to kind of generate, quote-unquote, “Cash flow” of some kind or comp, that isn't, you know, dollars coming off the books. So, this is something I think that's kind of a TBD is, Amazon has now answered this, which is we're going to give him—because otherwise, they're going to have a mass exodus, right, like, if you thought you're going to make 300k a year and you're actually going to make 180k a year, that's a huge dropoff, and you're probably going to be looking elsewhere. So, they say, “Well, here's some more RSUs.”The question is, you know, what will other companies do? All of this is, you know, we're talking about public companies here. So, there's a big difference between, like, Amazon stock, Google stock, whatever—or GSUs, whatever you want to call them—and then private, pre-IPO equity, and all these different things. I see those as much more in the category of what you described, which is, you know, if you're getting stock options on, like, an early stage, you know, like, an early stage startup, right, they're raising, like, their first or second or third round, you are going to have maybe kind of a large impact on the trajectory of the company, but on the price of that you have almost no agency whatsoever because of all the options that they have for dilution and all that other stuff that can go on and whether you even have shares that are going to be liquid at some point and all that stuff. So, I see that as much more like, you've just got to look at the company, the cash that they're paying you, how you feel about that, how you feel about the mission of the company, and understand that you've got, you know, you've got some lotto tickets in that company and who knows, maybe it goes to the moon and you get to go along for the ride, but much less certain than, you know, like I said, like, an Amazon-type situation where they actually will give you even more RSUs if the stock tanks over the course of the year.Corey: What are you seeing these days in terms of the macroeconomic conditions as a result? Like, some wit on Twitter said that the correction in the market has identified the grim reality that there are more engineers making $600,000 a year than there are engineering problems that need $600,000 engineers to fix them. So, there's a certain, are people being overcompensated? Is there a correction in the market? Is that changing the world of salary negotiation and peoples' job mobility?Josh: I think—working backwards—yes, job mobility is affected right now. I mean, I've seen you know, even in my own business, there are just fewer people reaching out and saying, “Hey, I have an offer at a big tech company.” Which is, you know, all over the news, layoffs. First, it was hiring freezes, right? This is late last year, October last year-ish, Q3, Q4, last year. They kind of said, “Oh, we're going to hire—we're going to slow down for a little bit on this hiring.”And then it was layoffs. And so, the last several months have been layoff after a layoff, you know, 5% here, 10% there at lots of different companies. Paradoxically, a lot of those companies are still up into the right, if you're looking at their stock price, lately. And I think a lot of that is back to the first thing that you said, which is, you know, do we have more engineers that are kind of sitting around looking for problems to solve than there are problems to solve? And I think the answer was probably, yes.Certainly, the pandemic, interest rates where they were, and all these other kind of macro-economic things, which I won't opine on too much because I'm not super-educated on them, but I understand them well enough to understand that basically, it was a better investment for a big company to hire an engineer, than necessarily to try to find somewhere to invest that money because interest rates were so low, so it's hard to find a nice quote-unquote, “Risk-free” return on the investment, so they said, “Why not? We'll just hire some engineers and maybe we'll get a bigger ROI there. We'll try a bunch of different projects, we'll put a bunch of people and maybe we'll go to the moon.”Corey: A lot of speculative or strategic hiring—Josh: Yeah.Corey: —and then okay, then you have—something that companies do when they have extra money is they greenlit additional projects. And when things get tight, they wind up effectively removing some of those projects from the table. And what I think people misunderstand in many cases is that compensation of employees is always more expensive than the infrastructure they work on, with very rare exceptions. So, the AWS bill is always secondary to payroll expenses, and fixing AWS cost takes time, effort, and engineering work, whereas laying people off requires a couple of difficult conversations—that companies increasingly seem to be bungling—and that's the end.Josh: Yeah. I think you're right about that. I mean, payroll, it's an old saw in businesses is that payroll is the biggest expense, right? Like, it's very expensive to hire people. But it could be the kind of thing, like you said, “We'll just fire up a bunch of these projects. We've been thinking about them anyway. We can't really invest this money anywhere else for a good return, so we'll take some shots here.” Right?But then interest rates go up and oh, there are places that I can get a nice return on this investment of cash, so maybe, you know, some of these projects that aren't going so well, we're going to shut them down. We're going to lean up a little bit. We're going to increase our margins, reduce our payroll costs, and just kind of ride this economic turmoil out and see how it goes. And who knows, maybe they'll fire some of those projects up later. But yes, it's much easier to say we're laying off 10% of our workforce tomorrow than it is to make a lot of other changes, especially on the expenses side.That's one of the few expenses I think that a company has direct control over and can simply reduce if they choose to. And that's kind of where we are right now, I think. And so, you mentioned economic mobility or job mobility. It's definitely way down. And I think the reason is that, you know, I mean, if I'd been through layoffs at companies that I worked at before, right?It's a really uncomfortable feeling, where the person that was sitting next to you in the office next to you gets laid off and you're sitting there wondering, “Am I going to be next?” And the last thing that you're going to do is start kind of poking your head up and looking for jobs and making it known that you're shopping, or even go ask for a raise or something because you're just trying to keep your head down and maybe the scythe will pass over me [laugh], right? Maybe they're going to miss me in this next round of layoffs if I just keep my mouth shut and I keep typing away here on my keyboard. So, I think a lot of that is going on where people are, if they're still employed, they're happy to be there and they're just going to kind of hunker down. And then if they're not employed, there's not a lot of them, you know, especially if you're coming from big tech, you would want to go most of the time to another big tech company.Like, that's why you're there, a lot of people aspire to work for big tech, they want to be in that ecosystem. But if all the big tech companies are laying people off or freezing hiring, there's nowhere to go. And so, there's nowhere to move if they want to. They don't want to make it known that they're looking to move because they don't want to draw attention to themselves if they're still employed. And if they're unemployed, the options for them to go somewhere are slim, but they probably have a severance package that they're kind of going to milk for a little bit and see if things kind of warm up again and they can go find somewhere to move to. So, everything feels, in the big tech level, there's a lot of inertia right now. People are just kind of sitting back, and there's a lot of friction, and they're just kind of hanging back to see what happens.Corey: And also, at least from my somewhat naive perspective, it feels like when people do get offers and they have made the decision to move on, there's an increasing sense of they should be thankful for what they get and not rock the boat by asking for more. But I vehemently disagree, to be very clear on this. I think that negotiate for the best package you can get. Do it in good faith and be responsible about it, but money that is life-changing to you is a rounding error at best for a lot of these companies. You will always be more invested in this than the counterparty that you're negotiating against. But it just really throws me and on some level, makes me sad watching people take less than they could be getting.Josh: Yeah. I mean, I think that's just the nature of people who are spooked when the economy is doing weird stuff. And it's an understandable reaction to it, but I agree with you. Just yesterday—you know, I'm in a bunch of [laugh] a bunch of different developer Slacks. I don't know which one this was, but I was in a developer Slack—and somebody was saying exactly that.They're like, “Yeah, I got this offer, it seems pretty good. I don't know if I should bother negotiating it, you know? Like, I, I—shouldn't I just be, you know, pretty satisfied with this thing that I got?” And I wrote a long response, which was, the short version of it was basically, “No.” And the reason is, think about all the costs that the company has incurred just to get to the point where they made you an offer?It was expensive for them. Believe me, a lot of money has been spent. They've gotten all the way to the finish line with you. I mean, the number is at least in the thousands of dollars; it's probably in the tens of thousands of dollars, especially if they flew out for an onside or something. If you went through an interview loop, just do the math on, well, I talked to six people for about an hour apiece. That's six hours right there of really expensive time probably at, like [laugh], you know, senior manager and above pay rates.So, they put a lot of money into trying to fill this role. They want to fill the role, especially in this environment. If you're that deep in the process, they've got a role that they probably feel is pretty crucial to be filled. So, you've got a lot of reasons that you should be optimistic about the value that you're bringing to that role and I think it's a mistake to not see what the maximum value is that you can get in return for the work that you're going to provide for them. So, I do think that being scared is not the right response there, again because they've made a significant investment to get to the point of making an offer.And remember their fallback, right, if you negotiate with them and they don't want to give you any more, I have never seen—and I underline the word ‘never—I've never seen that a big tech company, somebody negotiates, and the big tech company says, “Nevermind. Get out of here.” Job offer went away. I've never seen it.Corey: I was about to ask that because I've heard about it at startups. And back in years when I was on Twitter a lot more than I am now, I periodically have people messaging me saying that this happened to them. What should they do? Do I want to put the company on blast and the rest? It's something I learned relatively early on in that process was before I go off half-cocked—which I'm thrilled to do—can I get a screenshot of that email exchange back and forth?Because it hasn't happened often, but once or twice, what I have clearly seen is that the company makes an offer in good faith and the person comes back with what they believe is the professional way to negotiate for more money and it is such a screaming red flag that is basically fists-of-ham-powered here that companies are like, “Oh, thank God. We just learned this giant red flag. We can get out of this super easy by rescinding the offer because of the negotiation, rather than asking them who they think they're speaking to like that.” And that is the way of getting out of it in those cases. I don't think that's particularly common, and as you say, I don't suspect that happens at big tech companies.Josh: I mean, it's not a good look, right? There was a period last year where a big tech company… [laugh] I don't know if this is privileged information or not, but they were actually resending offers, and it's because they had gotten out over their skis. They were hiring way ahead of where they should have been, and then of course, everything turned and they had to start reducing headcount. So, they did, and then they started actually res—Corey: I can think of at least three companies off the top of my head that would qualify for that story. A lot of it came, but no one made an announcement that we're rescinding offers, but it doesn't take much on Twitter when you start seeing wow, 15 people all popped up at the same time claiming that. I wonder if they're telling—Josh: Weird.Corey: —the truth, given they've never—Josh: It's a pattern.Corey: —interacted with each other?Josh: Yes.Corey: Yeah…Josh: So, without putting them on blast, obviously, the reason I'm not saying their names is I would be putting them on bla—it's not a good look, right? Nobody wants to know that they're in the interview process for a company who is known for rescinding offers. And so, you know it wasn't a decision they took lightly. And so, to your point, companies are not just going to willy-nilly start pulling back offers because that's really terrible PR. I mean, it's just not a good idea.So, it's either what you said, which is—and this is something, like when I say, “I've never seen it; underline the word never,” right, what I mean is I work with people one-on-one for a living; that's what I do. None of my clients have ever had a job offer rescinded from big tech company. That's not to say it hasn't happened for reasons like you mentioned.Corey: Yeah, I have to imagine that the emails you help them craft to respond to these things don't start off with, “Now, listen here, asshole…”Josh: Right.Corey: Like, I sort of get the sense that that's not quite the negotiating tone that you take, most days.Josh: [laugh]. No. There's no, like, you know, “I've CC'd my lawyer on this email… and blah, blah—” you know, that's not how I negotiate; it's not a good way to negotiate if you want to get good results and build rapport with people. So, in general, if you follow what I would call, like, kind of good negotiating practices—which is self-serving because I would say that I've created a lot of them for salary negotiations, right—and if you're following the best practices there, everybody's understanding that we're having a professional, business conversation among, you know, [unintelligible 00:26:52] professionals. We're trying to find the best result, that's good for everybody and we're going to get there.And so, as long as you're not—you know, you mentioned, you know [laugh], I say, you know, pounding your fist on the desk and making ultimatums and stuff, like, that's not how I negotiate; you can hear it in the way I talk. You're going to be fine. They're not going to be rescinding offers and therefore, you have pretty much carte blanche to, in good faith, negotiate with them to see if there's more room to negotiate. And how aggressive you're being and what you're asking for, these are all things that are dependent on the situation, right? There's some cases where asking for another half a million a year would be completely absurd; in some cases where it's totally appropriate [laugh] and it just depends on what your situation is.Corey: For some roles, if you just accept the offer as given, you will lose status in their eyes, on some level. For example, one of the challenges we've had with contract negotiation has been when we hire folks to work on negotiations. It's one of those, like, “Okay, do we want somebody who accepts the first offer or do we want someone who really fights us tooth and nail over every aspect of it?” And it's, on some level, it's an extension to the interviewing process there.Josh: Yeah.Corey: I don't know what the right answer is on that I mostly shrug and make that my business partner's problem.Josh: I think it's a good metric to see, especially in your business, like, you want to know not only, like, can they negotiate contracts and all this stuff, but you want to know, like, how savvy are they in terms of business? And I think, in general, a person who just accepts the first offer they get in business, I will not say that they are not savvy because I don't know that, but it's not a signal of savviness, I think, to just outright accept the first thing that comes your way in business, in general.Corey: Oh, when I wind up interviewing people in person and telling them about offers and whatnot, in years past, it was always a, would you like me to sign it right now? It's… to be honest, I'm actually starting to reconsider having given it to you at all because only someone who is deranged is going to sign a contract they haven't read, and we don't try to hire for that.Josh: Right. Yeah, I mean, that's just not—especially when your job is negotiating—you want to know that this person is running a number of filters when they're considering, you know, what is probably a kind of a life-altering decision for them, right? And so, one of those filters is, “Are the terms of this contract good for me? Is there anything dangerous in here?” And one of the filters is, “Am I being appropriately compensated for the value that I'm going to bring?” That's the big one that I focus on, right?And there's a number of those filters and I think—you know, when I'm coaching someone, the first thing that we always say when a job offer comes in is, “Hey, thanks for the offer. I appreciate it. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like”—Corey: Yeah, acknowledge receipt.Josh: Yeah, yeah, “Thank you. I got the offer. Thank you for that.” And also acknowledge it and be thankful. Like, you know, “Hey, I appreciate it.” Like, “We have now made a significant step forward in this whole process that we're going through. I appreciate what you've done to get us here. I appreciate the fact that you're giving me an offer. That demonstrates a lot of trust and all these things. And if you don't mind, I'd like to take a day or two to think it over.” And then the last thing is, “Would you mind sending me a bullet-point summary in email of the numbers that you said, so I make sure I don't mess them up?”Because you're trying to avoid the very unlikely chance that they said numbers and you heard different numbers and then you start negotiating based on the different numbers and everything just kind of go sideways. So, that's the first three things: “Thank you for the offer.” “Can I have a day or two?” “Would you send me a bullet-point summary?” It doesn't have to be formal; just bullet points is fine.Corey: Would always irked me—and I you tend to see this a lot more with early career folks, but there's also this is a common failure mode as well among people who have been in one job for a while where they have gotten completely rusty at doing the interview dance. And they tend to view jobs as being this benevolent gift bestowed upon them by the employer and they become falling over themselves, just thanking them for the opportunity and the rest. And no, no, no, no, no. A job is a mutual exchange of value. You are solving a problem that the company has, and in turn, they are bringing you in and giving you a not inconsiderable amount of money—presumably—to wind up solving that problem for them, you both come out better than you were independently. That is what a job is. Confusing the power dynamic for something else feels, to me at least, like it's the wrong way to view things.Josh: Yeah. I've always not liked even the meta sort of way that we talk about jobs as, like, jobs created, jobs destroyed, somebody gave me a job. I don't know when that term—I would be curious actually, to kind of know the etymology of that term, but like, when we started describing jobs is the thing that was given or taken or—and instead, what it is, is it's a verbal contract or written contract. It's like, “Hey, I'm going to do work for you because I bring value. You're going to pay me because I'm creating value and because it's valuable to you. And we're going to figure out, you know, what's the meet-in-the-middle number, basically, that makes us both feel good about that business transaction.”You as a company can't do what you're doing without people like me. And I as a person have found a good place to flex that particular muscle at your company. That's great for both of us. Let's figure out how, you know, we can both be happy with it. So, it's definitely not that, you know, nobody's really doing anybody favors there. You're both entering into a mutual exchange of value for business reasons.And of course, your business reasons are different than theirs, but that's what they are. So yeah, I like the way that you frame that and you think about it. And I do think it can be a little harmful for people to have that perspective, especially like if they're in a position where they're thinking, “Oh, I'm so thankful that this company is willing to give me this job.” You know, “They're gifting me with this job and they're creating this job for me.” That's actually not what's happening.Corey: Something that I want to talk about, just because I've gone through this process myself as an employee, who interviewed a lot, negotiated a lot, and got hired a lot. Then I started this place and I've been on the other side of the table. And it turns out that it's not that hard to be a human being when you're the hiring manager and making these decisions. And understand the fact that yeah, you may be hiring five people this month, but these people aren't accepting five job offers a month—you hope—and going through that entire process themselves. And extending grace is just not that hard.Like, one thing that we've done since day one here has always been to put our salary compensation for the job in the job posting so we don't waste anyone's time. Where, like, “Well, what do you want to make?” It's like, if someone walks in to buy a car, the salesperson doesn't say, “Well, how much do you want to pay for it?” It doesn't work that way. It's, “This is the thing we're offering. This is the compensation we can build here. We don't do equity, so there's no funny money stories.”And yeah, I know you'd like to make three times more. So, would we, but without growth, that doesn't become sustainable. So, let's talk about how to get there. And being a responsible, decent human being is not that hard in the hiring space, but no one tells those stories because it's more fun, and outrage goes around the internet three times while the truth is still putting its boots on, where the idea of these horrible companies with people who don't know what they're doing just completely kicking themselves.Josh: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I thought, two things kind of flashed in my mind while you were talking. And the first one was, you know, I was a hiring manager for a while. And a lot of the sort of philosophy that I built around, like, asking for raises and promotions, right? Like, I have a process for that that's different than negotiating job offers, but the way that I developed it was as a hiring manager, my employees would say, you know—in their one-on-one or something—like, “Hey, you know, I feel like, you know, here's what happened when I started the company. For these reasons, I feel like I'm like, way behind where I should be in pay. Can you help?”And so, the way that I kind of approached that was, yes, I want to help them, but I cannot really do that on my own. I need a lot of information that I don't have for them. So, what information do I need from them to have them help me help them to get them a raise or get them or promotion, right? And so, I started thinking about it from the manager side of, like, essentially, kind of like a compassionate approach to, like, I need you to give me information and I will do what I can for you. And that was like, my whole philosophy with that, which is, I think I agree with you, but I need you to kind of prove to me that you should be paid more. Not because I don't believe you, but because I can't get you more money if I can't make that case, and I'm not able to make that case on my own, right?And so, I think that there is room for hiring managers to be compassionate in terms of like you said, just putting numbers in a job description, just so the person knows, like, yeah, this seems like it's probably approximately for me. Or you know, like I said, as a hiring manager saying, “Hey listen, I need you to bring me these three things. If you bring me those three things, that'd be the information that I need to go to finance or to HR or whoever and see if we can get you a raise or get you a promotion.” And if we can't, then I'll figure out, like, what are the next steps for you to get there to do that thing. And I think that in general, that's just removing friction from, like, forward-moving business processes and that's a good way to go.I think for you, right, you're saving yourself time, by putting those numbers in the job description, you're saving your applicants time by putting the numbers in the job description, and you're also kind of setting the terms for, like, the conversation that you're going to have, in addition to the abilities that they're bringing, the skills that they're going to bring, the things they're going to do for your company, you're also saving time on what the pay is going to be, what the compensation is going to look like approximately for that role, so that you can say, “Are we having a conversation whose parameters are known to us and that we agree upon to start with? Yes? Okay, great. Let's keep talking.” Otherwise, no, and maybe they should go somewhere else or maybe you need to rework your job listings because nobody is [laugh] applying for that job, right?But it's all data. It's a feedback loop. And it can be done compassionately. It doesn't have to be this, kind of, aggressive, you know, Shark Tank-style, like, I'm going to beat you over the head with this thing and get my result that I want, regardless of how you feel about it or, you know, how it makes you feel as a person.Corey: One last thing that I want to comment on this is that I've done this a fair bit, but if I wound up finding myself on the job market, I would absolutely reach out to you for coaching on the salary piece of it, just because you are a dispassionate third-party who is very aware of what the current state of the market is, you have a bunch of different offerings these days that range from a bunch of free articles on your website all the way up to individualized personalized coaching. I have bullied friends of mine into becoming your clients with a, “If he doesn't justify his fee, I will pay it instead of you.”Josh: [laugh]. Thank you for that, by the way.Corey: Of course. And I've never had to do it because you know what you're doing and the results absolutely speak for themselves. But my question is, what are you doing these days that's between the everything free on a website if you read it and, individualized one-on-one coaching? Are there now points in between those two extremes?Josh: Yeah. I think you actually summarized the whole spectrum pretty well. I mean, I've made—since I started my business seven-and-a-half years ago, one of the primary things that I did to start was, I'm going to create as much free content as I can and make it publicly available, just so that people can find it. Because there's no way that I can talk to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people one-on-one. And so, that's there on fearlesssalarynegotiation.com.The other end is my one-on-one coaching which I developed because, frankly, people were reaching out and saying, “Hey, will you coach me through this?” And I said, “Sure.” And I developed that business. And then in between is, I created a program… three or four months ago, I launched it. It's called Salary Negotiation Mastery, but it is essentially me sitting down late last year with an instructional designer and asking the question, how can I teach the methodology I use in my one-on-one coaching to people who can't afford to hire me or just aren't inclined to hire a consultant to help them do something? And how can I teach that to them in a way that they can execute it on their own to get a good result, or possibly, you know, they're just at an income bracket right now where it doesn't make sense for them to hire me?And so, that's kind of the middle ground there is it's a coaching program, but it's wrapped in a do-it-yourself thing, where you have, you know, worksheets and workbooks and things that you can use to do it yourself using exactly the methodology, even the templates and things that I use with my clients. And the only thing, of course, that you're missing is my brain, but I've put as much of that as I can into the program as possible. So, that's the spectrum is: free articles, Salary Negotiation Mastery in the middle, and then the top tier offering that I have is, like you said, one-on-one bespoke coaching, where I work with somebody one-on-one. And I don't do a lot of that, just because it requires a lot of time and I like to give a ton of focus to everybody that I work with.Corey: Which makes sense because it also feels like it's a very time-sensitive issue as well. Like with AWS bill, great people want it fixed now, but then procurement can slow things down. But that's okay; there's another bill coming next month. Job offers, speaking as a hiring manager, if you accept the job, terrific, that's great. If you don't. Then okay, that's unfortunate, but it happens. But either way, let us know so we can either continue speaking to other people or begin planning for you to show up. So, it feels like there's very much a strong sense of urgency around the entirety of what you do.Josh: Yeah, especially for the coaching. And the whole offering for my coaching offering is really designed to make sure that I have enough bandwidth available for someone to call me. I mean, literally, as we're in this recording right now, I could have gotten an application in the email that would say, “Hey, I have a job offer in hand from Google. It's for this much money, it's for this level, can you help?”Corey: “And they're on the other line. Please respond immediately.”Josh: Yes. And their recruiter is pressuring me for an answer. They want to get back to the hiring manager. And so, I need to be able to respond quickly, get back to that person, have an intro call, get to know them, see if I can help in their situation, kickoff, you know, this afternoon or tomorrow morning, get a counteroffer over in the next 24 to 36 hours, that kind of thing. And so, in order to do that, I've got to build an offering that allows me to have enough bandwidth and, kind of, agency over my schedule so that I can just sort of jump in immediately into the middle of a process that's ongoing and help the person get the best result possible.So, I enjoy that to be honest with you. I like, kind of, being called on in emergency situations like that. It's really good. But of course, I had to structure the offering so that it facilitates it so that I'm not, you know, already booked on the phone eight hours a day and unable to even look at my email until tomorrow or something because it just wouldn't work.Corey: Yeah. There's something to be said for being able to take a vacation.Josh: Yes. Which takes some planning, but can be done [laugh]. And it means I just have to turn off the application sometimes [laugh].Corey: Glad to see things are still going well for you. You started your business a few months before I started mine and it's great to see that we're both still failing to go out of business every month.Josh: [laugh]. That's how I see it, too. I'm still here. Now, what [laugh]? That's every month on the first when I do the books.Corey: [laugh]. I hear you. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more—and if they're changing jobs, they absolutely should—where should they go to find out?Josh: fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is the first place to go. I'm also on Twitter. I don't tweet a lot kind of actively, I probably should do better on that, but I'm at @joshdoody on Twitter and I'm very responsive on there. So, you could ping me on there or, you know, connect with me on LinkedIn if you wanted to; I'm also joshdoody there. But fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is the best place to go, especially if you're kind of in a time crunch. Everything is just right there for you to jump in and kind of grab, you know, the free resource that you might need or apply to work with me as a coaching client.Corey: Oh, the template emails are glorious.Josh: Yes. Those are one of my favorite things on the site. They don't look like other emails that people write, and something I take a lot of pride in is communicating well and creating good email templates that help a lot of people.Corey: Oh, in TextExpander, for a decade now, I've had a fill-in-the-blanks templated resignation letter, which it turns out, most people don't have. But I don't need it much these days, but it is useful to wind up giving to people from time to time. Like, “So, how do I tell my boss to take this job and shove it?” It's like—Josh: Well—Corey: —life is long and the industry is small. Go vent to your friends over beers. But there's very little upside and huge potential downside, so write the formal thing. Here you go. And it turns out that it's sort of cathartic, just filling that out. And it's like, oh, that's what this [unintelligible 00:42:05]. And it often helps people step back from the ledge sometimes. Or pushes them right off, depending.Josh: I think that's a useful service.Corey: But yeah, the [unintelligible 00:42:11] template emails are way better than mine.Josh: [laugh]. Well thanks, I appreciate it. It means a lot to me.Corey: [laugh]. Josh Doody the owner of fearlesssalarynegotiation.com. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment and be sure to include your salary expectations.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Topics CoveredJosh Doody - Salary Negotiation Expert@JoshDoody on twitter: https://twitter.com/joshdoodyThe Fearless Salary Negotiation site: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/Josh's book: Fearless Salary Negotiation: A Step-by-Step Guide to Getting Paid What You're Worth https://www.amazon.ca/Fearless-Salary-Negotiation-step-step/dp/0692568689From engineering to HR to Salary Negotiation ExpertWhy salary negotiation is so importantSalary unhappiness can be a barrier to productivityHow hiring managers also have a stake in salary equityCreating a win-winWho should be negotiating salaryThe main levers to pull in a negotiationThe hiring manager's point of view and the cost of hiringShould you ask your current employer to match a job offer?The biggest barriers to negotiationsWhen is the best time to start negotiatingWhy and how you should avoid the salary expectations questionArticle on how to handle salary expectations questions https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-expectations-interview-question/When it's time to stop negotiating and when are you asking for too muchExample of the simple script I mentioned for planning the final stages of a negotiation: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-negotiation-script-example/How to prepare for a negotiationHere's what a counter offer email might look like: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-negotiation-email-sample/"Your first job is your first job when you learn how to have a job, your second job is your real experience, your third job is where you get paid."

I welcome Josh Doody, author of Fearless Salary Negotiation, onto the show. We talk about determining your market value, why you shouldn't ever be scared to negotiate an offer, and how COVID-19 has affected the job market for software developers.

I welcome Josh Doody, author of Fearless Salary Negotiation, onto the show. We talk about determining your market value, why you shouldn't ever be scared to negotiate an offer, and how COVID-19 has affected the job market for software developers.

In our inaugural workshop, Josh Doody visits us from Gainesville, FL to do a presentation and Q&A on material from his book and courses about salary negotiation. You can find out more about Josh by visiting his website at http://www.joshdoody.com or finding him on Twitter at https://twitter.com/JoshDoody. Fearless Salary Negotiation, the book and video courses, can be found at http://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com. --- Visit our website: http://orlandodevs.com Find us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/OrlandoDevs Be sure to subscribe for more videos from our workshops and meetups. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN19aNmjBoU

For 15 years, Josh Doody held several different software engineering roles at companies like Raytheon, ADP, and Appirio. Today, he owns a consultancy called Fearless Salary Negotiation and helps software developers get paid what the market commands. Join Corey and Josh as they discuss how software developers can get paid more, what the current tech job market looks like, when devs should start thinking about compensation in their next roles, when salary negotiations actually begin, why the goal of a negotiation isn’t always about getting more money, the biggest mistakes people make in negotiations, and more.

Phil’s guest on this episode of the IT Career Energizer podcast is Josh Doody. He helps software developers to get more high-quality job offers and negotiate higher salaries.  He is also the author of the book “Fearless Salary Negotiation”, a step-by-step guide to getting paid what you’re worth.   In this episode, Phil and Josh discuss the right way to negotiate high salaries. He shows the audience how a few simple language changes will turn you into a better negotiator and self advocate.   Josh explains how to avoid weakening your negotiation position by using a number when answering the question, how much do you want to make? He also reveals the IT sector in which his highest paid coaching clients are involved and explains why you may want to switch career direction.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: (3.09) TOP CAREER TIP Always re-negotiate job offers, even if you think the offer is a really good one. Usually, you will have underestimated your value to that firm. They know this is likely to be the case. So, most firms, will only offer you what you consider to be a good salary, rather than what you are actually worth to them.   Josh also shares the best way to leverage the power you to get properly paid throughout your career. That includes when you move to new roles within a firm.  He also explains how to get your direct manager on your side.   (6.44) WORST CAREER MOMENT While Josh was still working for other people, he spent a year under a manager who had poor management skills. His manager had simply been promoted to the point where his salary level demanded that he had people report to him directly. This despite the fact he was not suitable for that role.   It was a situation that resulted in a very poor working environment. But, good came out of it. Josh realised that even if he left that firm, he could potentially find himself in the same situation again. It made him rethink his career and realise that he needed to find a way to work for himself.   (8.06) CAREER HIGHLIGHT At one point in his career, Josh got heavily involved in developing HR talent management and development software. This work was a highlight of his career.   He really enjoyed the creative process. Working on blue sky ideas, building systems people were actually able to use was engaging and exciting. Josh particularly liked being able to combine using his existing skills to the full while learning new ones.   (9.40) THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Machine learning and AI are the top fields to work in. That will be the case for many years to come. Unsurprisingly, the people who have this type of experience are being extremely well paid, right now.   The future for IT is bright and very exciting. Over the past year, more of Josh’s clients have started to receive multiple work offers. Many have taken advantage of this fact and chosen to do the work that looks to be the most interesting and fulfilling. The role that offers the most opportunities for the future.   (13.37) THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – The first time Josh used a DOS computer; he saw the magic and was immediately hooked. What’s the best career advice you received? – His first boss taught him to be more purposeful about the way he approached his work. Not to just focus on the financial reward. What’s the worst career advice you received? – Slow down, you are progressing too fast. What would you do if you started your career now? – Josh would focus on machine learning and AI. The work is fascinating and Josh’s clients who work in that field are earning big. What are your current career objectives? – In the short term, Josh’s focus is on offering good coaching services. But, he is an entrepreneur, so expects to, switch focus, at some point. What’s your number one non-technical skill? – Diplomatic communication. This skill enables Josh to stand up for himself and his ideas without putting the other party off. During the podcast, he shares a clever language trick he uses to do that. How do you keep your own career energized? – Experimenting and trying new things in his business. Josh is not afraid to take risks. What do you do away from technology? – Josh has a close group of friends that he spends a lot of time with. He is also active in his community.   (23.39) FINAL CAREER TIP When a prospective employer asks you how much you expect to make, if they were to offer you the job, never reply with a number. Josh explains what to say instead, so you do not alienate the other person or weaken your negotiating position.   BEST MOMENTS (3.13) – Josh - “Always negotiate job offers, even if you think the offer is really good.” (3.52) – Josh - “Get your pay as high as you can at the beginning, using tactful negotiation techniques.” (16.57) – Josh - “Of the people I coach, the ones involved in AI are the ones that are making the big money.” (17.07) – Josh - “For the next 20 or 30 years, AI is going to be huge.” (24.39) – Josh - “Don’t be the one to name the first number in wage negotiation.” (24.41) – Josh - “The wage negotiation process starts in the interview. Not, when you are offered the job. ”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organisations to design, develop and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/philtechcareer LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Facebook: https://facebook.com/philtechcareer Instagram: https://instagram.com/philtechcareer Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact   Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast’s website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – JOSH DOODY My guest on today’s show helps software developers to get more high-quality job offers and negotiate higher salaries.  He is also the author of the book “Fearless Salary Negotiation”, a step-by-step guide to getting paid what you’re worth.   CONTACT THE GUEST – JOSH DOODY Josh Doody can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoshDoody LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/ Personal Website: https://www.joshdoody.com Company Website: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/ Coaching Page: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/coach Article: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/the-dreaded-salary-question/

Personalization can improve conversion rates by, on average, 10X, but only 4% of businesses say they're using it. This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, RightMessage founder Shai Schechter talks about the lessons learned from his review of 500+ landing pages and calls to action and why personalizing your website copy can dramatically increase conversion rates. Shai's process for personalizing is simple. Ask your visitor a question, and then use their answer to deliver website copy that speaks directly to their needs. The results are conversion rates 10X higher. Sounds simple, right? So why are so few businesses doing it? In this week's episode, Shai shares a simple, straightforward, and easy solution that makes implementing personalization - and getting crazy good results with your conversion rates - a no brainer. This week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast is brought to you by our sponsor, IMPACT Live,  the most immersive and high energy learning experience for marketers and business leaders. IMPACT Live takes place August 6-7, 2019 in Hartford, Connecticut, and is headlined by Marcus Sheridan along with special guests including HubSpot Co-Founder and CEO Brian Halligan, world-renowned Facebook marketing expert Mari Smith and Drift CEO and Co-Founder David Cancel. Inbound Success Podcast listeners can save 10% off the price of tickets with the code "SUCCESS."   Click here to learn more or purchase tickets for IMPACT Live Some highlights from my conversation with Shai include: RightMessage is conversion optimization software that helps people get more email subscribers and sell more via their websites. It does this by allowing the user to create a popup on their site that asks a simple question of the visitor, and then use the answer to that question to dynamically deliver personalized content on their website. It can be used on any type of website and is installed by simply pasting a line of javascript code into the backend of the site. Shai worked with more than 500 websites to test out different approaches to personalization and learned that by personalizing calls to action, he could improve conversion rates, on average, by 10x. There is a long list of variables that can be used to drive personalization, including both implicit and explicit data. The process that RightMessage uses to personalize content begins with a popup that asks the visitor a simple question. In Shai's experience, "What brings you here today?" is the question that performs the best. He suggests that the best way to get started with personalization is to target website visitors that have not already subscribed to your email list, and use what you know about visitors to customize the value prop on your call to action for subscribing. On average, Shai said that 20 to 30% of visitors answer the question in the popup, and then 20 to 30% of those who answer the question convert on the follow on offer. Data shows that 94% of customers think personalization is critical to the success of their business and only 4% of businesses say they're doing a lot of personalization. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Visit the RightMessage website Check out RightMessage.com/impact for a special offer just for Inbound Success Podcast listeners Follow Shai on Twitter Connect with Shai on LinkedIn Email Shai at shai@rightmessage.com  Listen to the podcast to learn what Shai learned from analyzing more than 500 landing pages and CTAs, and how those insights have helped him 10X conversion rates. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and this week my guest is Shai Schechter who is the founder of RightMessage. Welcome, Shai. Shai Schechter (Guest): Hi, thanks for having me. Shai and Kathleen recording this episode together . Kathleen: Yes, I'm happy to have you here. This is such an interesting case of how you came to be on the podcast and it's a first for me. I got you as my guest via a tweet. You had tweeted out that you had learned a lot about what makes a great opt-in form and CTA and that you had worked on more than 500 websites and had seen conversion rates of up to 10X and I was literally just browsing Twitter and saw this and thought, "I need to talk to this guy." So, the power of Twitter, right? Shai: Right. I don't know what made Twitter show it to you. Maybe we'll never know but I'm glad you saw it. Kathleen: It's the black magic that Twitter does behind the scenes but it happened and that's all that matters. Before we get into that actual story of what you did and what you learned talk a little bit for me about your background, about what RightMessage is and what led you to start it and what the company does. About Shai Schechter and RightMessage Shai: Yeah, sure. RightMessage is essentially conversion optimization software. It's something that people use on their websites. It helps them get to more subscribers to their e-mail list and helps them sell more to those people. But what it's doing differently and what's making it prove quite effective for the people using it is that it's all about kind of saying, not everyone in my audience is going to be the same so how can I segment them a little bit? How can I understand the different kinds of people coming to my site? How can I learn who's coming to my site and then use that to pitch more appropriately to them. And so to say, not everyone who comes to my site is looking for exactly the same thing and the same copy isn't going to resonate with all of them. So maybe we can ask them a question. Maybe we can learn something about them. Maybe we already know something about them because of how they've been interacting with our site or with our company and use that to really say, "I'm not going to just blast every possible call to action at you at once. I'm going show the one thing that's relevant to you right now." Kathleen: If I understand correctly, is it looking at information on visitors and I presume that those visitors will have been cookied in order to deliver that information? Is that accurate? Shai: Yes, the absolute ... So we don't do any of the kind of ... We don't do the stuff that Facebook's doing where they're following you around the internet, none of that. It is literally maybe, "What are they reading on my own company's blog right now?" Or, here's a question to them like, "What brings you here today? Why have you come? How can we help?" And they give you that little bit of information and you can then help them. You can then give them a better experience because of what they've just told you. Kathleen: Then that information is used to effectively dynamically update the information on the page? Shai: Yeah. Kathleen: Correct? Shai: Absolutely. Kathleen: Okay. Shai: And that may just be the call to action itself. It may be ... You know, if they tell you that they're really ... If you sell courses to help people get started with business and they tell you that they are really struggling with finding out what their audience needs then right there and then let's say to them, "Here's my course that helps you with that exact thing. I've got a whole suite of e-mail courses that could help you or I've got a couple of ... there's a webinar coming up that would be perfect for you. I'm going to suggest you do that. I think that's going to help you the most right now." Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense. Now, does it work on any website regardless of how the site is built? In other words, if my site is on WordPress versus Drupal versus custom html, can I use RightMessage regardless of platform or CMS? Shai: Yeah, absolutely. It's like it's one line of Java script you put into your site, so pretty much any website, or landing page builder or whatever, lets you do that. We don't replace your website builder and we don't replace your e-mail list. We essentially just tie the two together and say, "Now your website can do the same kinds of things that maybe you're already with your e-mail marketing where you're sending different campaigns to different people. Now you can do that on your website or any website. Kathleen: Oh, that makes all the sense in the world. What led you to create it? Shai: I am a developer by craft. I'm a software person and so to me when I started ... I was consulting a few years ago and I'd had a couple of software products in the past as well. So when it came to kind of saying, "Right, I need to grow this consulting business. I need to learn how to market this business. I'm not going to rely on word of mouth any more." It wasn't for me a reliable way to grow a business and I started learning more about marketing. I started doing ... I had my website and I was learning how online marketing kind of worked and because I had this software background, to me a website was something that ... Most websites that I dealt with had been web apps, right, where everyone sees a different experience because you log in and then you see something. I see something different on my Facebook then you see on yours, right? So I was making these marketing websites for myself and for clients and to me it was like, "Why would I put an opt-in form to join my newsletter at the bottom of a blog post to somebody who's already on my newsletter, right?" Kathleen: Yeah, correct, 100% Shai: Right. It's not good for me because that's a bad thing. If someone's on my newsletter the last thing I want to say to them is, "Join my newsletter." That's a wasted opportunity to say something more effective to them and it's very unfair to them. They don't want these pop-ups in their face being like, do this thing that you've already done. To me it was really common sense to sort that out. It seemed like a very natural thing to do but I think that's because my understanding about websites is that website changes. It's different for different people. So I started doing this stuff and marketers around me were like, "How the hell did you just do that?", right? They had no idea it was possible. When I was speaking to developers they were like, they saw it as an obvious thing to do but when I started helping marketers do this on their own sites, then developers would be like, "Why is anyone paying you money for that?" The marketers are like, "I had no idea that you could do this." Kathleen: That's so great. I feel like some of the best ideas in the world are the things that for some people have been staring them in face forever, but for other people, it's like revolutionary, right? Shai: Right. Yeah, it's just we're like in two separate worlds and if you can intersect them a little bit. Then a friend of mine, a man called Brennan Dunn, he's kind of come to the same realization on his own. He had kind of an educational product website. He was selling courses to help freelancers. He came from the same background as me. He also worked in software and then moved heavily into marketing and he was doing the same thing I was helping my clients doing. He was doing it on his own sites and he was also seeing these amazing results. When someone started his on-line course, his free e-mail course, he'd ask them a question about themself and that was very easy for him to do because he's just wrote some custom java scripts on his marketing site. Then later on after they'd been through his free e-mail course he would promote his paid course using different language depending on what they had said when they started the free course. So based on why they said they wanted the free course he then pitched how the paid course could help you do that exact thing. He was also tracking results and those kind of results we were both seeing these really high, really high conversion rates. We ended up, he was the one that kind of said, "Why are we sitting here helping marketers do this one by one. What if there was something where they could do this themselves?" So you don't have to write any code. You can just point and click and set this up for your own sites and we can help you make it easy as possible to see these same conversion rates that we were seeing. Kathleen: How old is the company now? Shai: What I've just described was all happening about two years ago, a little bit more. In the end, we officially launched this product a year and a half ago. Kathleen: Wow. Shai: It was never meant to be ... we didn't go all in on this right away. It was meant to be a little evening project and we'd kind of throw it together. He had a bit of an audience for it. I would build it over the course of a few days and it kind of ended up growing a lot bigger by accident. Kathleen: Which I suppose is what happens when you have product market fit. Shai: I guess so, yeah. Shai's Review of 500+ Websites (and Lessons Learned) Kathleen: Well, that's great. Thank you for sharing that story. Now you mentioned when you sent out your tweet that you had worked with more than 500 sites and were able to glean some insights from that. Can you talk a little bit about what led you to look at those? Are these sites that are using RightMessage? Shai: A lot of them are. What really happened, when we started, when RightMessage started it was less about the opt-in forms and the calls to action on your site and it was more about you can personalize everything, right? You can change your headline. You can the testimonials. You can can make your entire site dynamic to who someone is and that does really help conversion rates. It's also really overwhelming to get started with. When its like, "You can change anything on your site", people were overwhelmed. So what we started doing is kind of working really closely with people who were ... Some of them were customers. Some of them were people who had been customers but they had decided they weren't ready for it yet, as returns. Some of them were people who we thought this would work really well for but again they kind of saw it as overwhelming and what we wanted to do was find out what is important to them right now? What would they want to ... What are the metrics they're trying to improve on their website? And what it came back to time and time again was by looking at the data of what personalization was working really well for the people who were doing it and looking at what it was that people wanted to be doing better on their site, all of it pointed to it's the calls to action. It's those points, those make or break point where you're saying to someone, "Now I want you to do something. Now I want you to sign up for my e-mail list" or "Now I want you to take a free trial of my product" or whatever that next action is. Those were the trigger points where the people who were doing a little bit to make those dynamics, make those personalized we're seeing 10 times higher conversion rates than the people who weren't. That's why we need to focus. Kathleen: Can you talk a little bit about ... You talked about how you could either use data, it sounded like data on their behavior or answers to a question to fuel the personalization. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what have you seen in terms of that initial collection point of information, if you will. What is most effective? Shai: Yeah, absolutely, and that's the important part, right? If you don't know something about somebody there's nothing you can do to talk to them in a way that's going to resonate. So we split into the two that you've just described there you've got the explicit and the implicit. So you've got the explicit profiling which is asking them a question and we've started to gather a lot data about what the best questions are to ask. A lot of it boils down to it's really common sense stuff in the sense that it's exactly what you would ask them if you were chatting to them face to face, right? And that might not just be on their website either. That might be questions that you've asked them in a survey that you sent out to your list, for example. Anytime where they actively tell you something in a form or in a survey. Then you've got all these implicit things where, which are things like, "Have they already bought from me?" "Are they already a subscriber on my e-mail list?" They didn't have to tell you those things, you can see those already. Kathleen: Yeah, the latter sounds like they're more kind of where they are and which stage they're in of their buying journey, if you will. Shai: Yeah, absolutely, the stage that they're in. If you've got a blog and it's got different categories what you'll often find is that somebody is kind of binging articles on one specific category because it's the one the care about right now. That again can tell you ... They're answering the question of which category are you interested in without being asked it. So the categories do that and that also includes things like ... You've also got if somebody clicks through to your site from someone else's site, what does the site that they clicked through from tell you about who they are? Kathleen: That's interesting, yeah. Shai: So yeah, you've got little insights like that as well, but if you're just kind of getting started asking them works really well. I think it also helps, it makes for a softer pitch, right? If instead of saying immediately, "Join my course", "Buy my thing," if you first ask something you're getting that, it's kind of that easy yes. Then you can use that immediately to say, "Right, based on what you said, here's what I think you should be doing." Kathleen: Now I'm assuming there are, some questions are better than others in the sense that it could be tempting, for example, to say, "What's your budget?" That's a very bottom of the funnel almost, like, sub-funnel question. Shai: Yeah. Kathleen: Have you seen the most success of much more top of the funnel, kind of softer questions? Shai: Yes. "What brings you here today?" is essentially the softest and best performing question. The first question that we see. You can follow that up with something that's more about the person, maybe their industry. It depends what's going to be relevant based on the field that you are in, but yeah as a first question, it's like the, "What brought you here?" "How can we help you?" kind of question works really well. It makes sense, right? If you're in a store in the real world and the shop assistant comes over to you and they start with, "What industry are you in?" That's a little bit harder, harsher. Kathleen: Awkward. Shai: Yeah, it's kind of like, "Why do you want to know?" Kathleen: Exactly. Shai: Where as like, "What brought you to the shop? What are you looking for?" Okay, I immediately ... I know why you're asking. It's clear how that's going to help, it's going to be in my interest to tell you. That works really well as the first question. Kathleen: Are the questions generally, well I guess this is a two part question. Let me ask you first, does RightMessage have a feature that allows you to create and present that question or is that something that you have to do for your own website? Shai: Right, yeah, no, so that's what RightMessage'll help you do. Kathleen: Okay, and does that manifest as a pop-up? Shai: Yeah, so you choose. You've got a whole suite of ... If you think of any opt-in widgets at all, it's essentially the same options, right? You can show a sticky bar at the top or bottom of the page. You can put a pop-up module in the middle of the page when they, if they go to leave the site. Or it might just be in-line, kind of an embedded widget at the bottom of a blog post or a little slide up toaster widget in the corner. It's all of those things. It's whatever you want to be doing, probably whatever you're doing right now. We're just sorting those out. Kathleen: At the risk of getting super technical and a little too technical even for myself, you know I've had varying experiences with pop-ups. I know that there are some that Google doesn't like because they create a poor experience and there are some that because of the way that they load can slow page load times. Can you talk a little bit about the way you built the product and how it impacts those two factors? Shai: Yeah. We're very much about ... I don't know if you've seen, there was one of these little fake gif video things going around recently. It was like the state of marketing in 2019 and it was just these pop-ups everywhere. We're trying to do everything we can to be the opposite of that. A lot of that does come down to ... A lot of the reason that you have all these competing pop-ups everywhere is because you're not sure what to pitch someone, right? You've got your e-mail opt-in but then what if they're ready to start a trial? Okay, so we've got to put a pop-up for the trial over here. Then at the end of the blog we're going to put something else. You've got all these ... Often the reason you have all these competing, all these different pop-ups is because you've got all these different things to offer. One of the things that we're trying to make really easy to do is to say, if you know which one thing this person needs right now you don't have to go bother them with so many touch points, right? You can be consistent with it. It doesn't have to be from a pop-up. You might just want to do one pop-up. You might want to do no pop-ups at all. It might just be that you have a soft pitch at the end of your blog article, right? In terms of the Google thing we don't ... Google, especially on mobile really doesn't like the 'in your face' pop-ups. If you're on mobile then automatically they overcome a much softer, it's a little trade right at the bottom so it's not in the way of the content at all. We're not doing that because of Google. We're doing it for the same reason as Google, which is that it's a bad user experience. For instance, when someone has come to your site for content and then you put something in their face that interrupts that content, yeah I understand and agree with why Google doesn't like those things and we're trying kind of do the same. Kathleen: Does the pop-up load asynchronously? Shai: Yeah, so it won't slow down the sites or anything like that. How To Get Started With Personalization Kathleen: Okay. That's great. You ask, you present ... to go back to what we started with. You present the visitor with this question and it's a soft kind of introductory question that allows you to learn something about that person and then RightMessage then gives you the ability to begin to customize things. I imagine knowing, like, I'm a marketer. I know marketers pretty well. I imagine that the temptation as a marketer would be to go down the rabbit hole and spend a lot of time trying to personalize too many things. My guess would be that there are probably a few small things that you can do. It's that 80/20 rule, right? What are the 20% of things that will give you the 80% of results? If somebody was to just dip their toe in the water at this do you have typical advice you give them about what the few low hanging fruit things that they should start with that are going to give them their biggest bang for their buck? Shai: Yeah, absolutely. We actually just this week started this recipe book of really simple and high converting things that you can do. But at it's core, so yeah, if you're just getting started I would say wherever it is right now that you're pitching that first thing to people which may be an e-mail course or joining your e-mail list or some other thing that probably isn't your kind of main end-of-the road, ultimate most expensive product or service, where ever you're doing that right now on your website just switch that to ask one question first. Then if they are anonymous, if they haven't joined your list yet then pitch that list. Pitch it exactly like you were doing before just change the working to describe the benefits and one of the benefits of it as being related to the things they just answered. So look at your list and look at what are the main reasons that people might want to join their list. Or if it's an e-mail course, what are the main reasons that people join it? If you don't know that yet then maybe it's time to survey people who have already done it or ask them just after they've joined, "What was it that made you join?" You can then feed that back into what your multiple choice answers should be to the question. Once you know that, ask the question and based on the answer pitch your entry level product or e-mail list or whatever it is in a way that describes how it helps with that thing that they just said. Kathleen: That's great and it's pretty simple and straight forward. Shai: Right, and the conversion rate increase even of that, I've seen people go from 2% opt-in rates to like 20% opt-in rates. What Kind of Marketing Results Can Personalization Deliver? Kathleen: That was going to be my next question. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the results you've seen for companies that use this? Shai: Yeah. You do see some variant. It depends on where people are doing these pitches and who their audience is as well but a lot of people, when they set up the basic thing that I just described, it's fairly typical to see something like, and it's hard to give typical. Depending on where you're doing it you might get 1 or 2% of people answering the question but it's also, it's very common to see 20 or 30% answer, especially with a question like, "What brings you here today?" So yes, 20 or 30 and I've seen it higher than that as well. I'd say 20 to 30% I would not be surprised if somebody set this up for the first time and was seeing that kind of answer rate. Then the pitch that comes after it, that kind of initial opt-in pitch, you might see the same again. You might see something like 20%, 30% act on that. It depends. It depends on the audience but something like that is not at all unusual. Kathleen: Which is a very strong conversion rate. I mean, most companies that I see, their conversion rate, their visitor to lead conversion rate, is usually somewhere around 1 to 3% on their website. Shai: Exactly, exactly and it depends. It depends where it's coming from. It depends, you know, is this brand new to a blog? It depends where the traffic is coming from. It depends where this traffic has come from. It depends where you're doing this pitch and all of those things but yeah, if somebody was getting a couple of percent opt-in rate before I would be very surprised if they didn't see that more than double when they start doing this. I think it kind of ... It almost makes sense when you stop and think about it, right? If someone is on your website they're trying to figure out whether you can help them and anything that you can do to make it easier for them to translate from what they're reading on your site to have that apply to their own life, is going to make it more likely that they ... If someone's not sure that you can help them they're just going to bounce. Kathleen: Yeah, I mean fundamentally we're all lazy, right? Shai: Right. Kathleen: We just are, all of us. As a business the more you can cater to that and hand or spoon feed the answers that somebody's looking for the better you'll do. Shai: Yes. Kathleen: It's just the truth about human nature. Shai: Yeah, it's the difference between the sales person who reads off a script versus the sales person who finds out a bit about you and what you need and then tailors everything, explains how the product can help you specifically. Or like the real estate agent showing you around a house. They either just describe each room or they find out what kind of person you are and then they paint the picture for you of how, to help you see yourself living in that house. "You have kids? This room would make an amazing playroom." Kathleen: Right. Shai: That would be ... they're not going to say that. Kathleen: There's your man cave, right? Shai: Right. Exactly, exactly. The other thing was, so I was just listening to your, you had an episode with Rev.com, with Barron a few weeks ago and when he was talking about the audience research they were doing, that really resonates with me because that's the same kind of thing. They were going and asking their audience all these kind of questions about why they had used the product and what they were doing before and all those kind of things and they'd taken that and used that in their marketing. They'd taken those phrases and that became the subheading on their website. Other people would come and read that and they were like, "Yeah, I certainly ... This really resonates with me" because it was real language from customers, from other customers who were like them. So we're just doing that in real time. Kathleen: It's so simple and it seems so obvious just to use the words the customers use but it's amazing how few companies actually do it. Shai: Yeah, I saw a statistic recently that 94% of customers think personalization is critical to the success of their business and 4% say they're doing a lot of that. Kathleen: That's an incredibly wide gap. Shai: Yeah, and the mismatch, then they dug deeper and they're like, "What's stopping you?" It was all like, "It's hard to know where to start" and "We don't have the tools. We don't have the technical capability to do that." How Hard Is It To Implement Personalization? Kathleen: So to that exact point, how technical do you need to be to set this up, to use it, to run it, et cetera? Shai: You don't. You need to be able to install a little java script or have a developer who can do that. Kathleen: I was just going to say, so if you can't do that, if you have somebody who runs your website for you, whether that's in your company or an outside contractor, this is what, a five minute job? A one hour job? Shai: Yeah, that part is like a one minute job. It's copying and pasting. It's the same as if you were installing Google analytics on your website or any of these other things, that is you copy this and you paste it into your website builder. Then from there it's literally a point a click kind of, "Here is a ..." It's a flow chart builder, right? You start building out these parts. Is the person on my site anonymous? Yes? Let's ask them this question and then let's pitch them this offer. Kathleen: A series of if/then statements kind of. Shai: Essentially, yeah, with questions along the way and an offer at the end to buy it. Then you hit, Publish in the corner. You press the Publish button and whatever you've set up will immediately go out and be live on your site. Learn More About RightMessage Kathleen: Great. Well, if someone's interested in learning more about RightMessage, what should they do? Shai: They should go to RightMessage.com. In fact, they should go to RightMessage.com/impact. I'll set something up there that will get them something that the ordinary folk don't get. Kathleen: Aaah, special offer. I will put a link in the show notes for that. Shai: Yeah, I'll sort something out for your wonderful listeners. Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: Great, thank you for that. I'm curious to get your take on the two questions that I always ask my guests. Company or individual, this podcast is all about inbound marketing. Who do you think is doing really great work with inbound marketing right now? Shai: I like this question. It's a difficult question, you know? Kathleen: Well, there are so many possible answers. I'll just preface it with, it's interesting to see the direction that people go. Some people provide answers that are within the marketing world of marketers doing inbound marketing really well. Others come with these examples that are just from out in the wild and both are equally fascinating so I always love hearing what people say. Shai: Yeah. For me at the moment kind of the inbound, kind of the good inbound marketing is the non-obnoxious, not in your face, the softer marketing, the educational marketing. I think everyone is starting to or a lot of people are starting to move that way. They're kind of tired of the in your face stuff. When I think of who's really good at that it's people like, I keep getting e-mails from Ben Orenstein at Tuple who just every e-mail I get from him I'm like, "He is not trying to sell me right now" but it makes me want to buy. It's so, here is tons of value and here's some cool stuff. You're learning about the product along the way but it's not a hard pitch. We love that. Kathleen: It's interesting that you say that because I'm, somebody once said to me and now I've become a big fan if it and I wish I could remember who first said it, that the best sales people do not sell, they help people buy. It sounds like that's exactly what he's doing in those e-mails. Shai: Yeah, and it's also, it's people that aren't afraid to say, "Maybe it isn't right for you." The assumption of marketing is that, 'You should buy this" is flawed, right? It's, "We're going to help you figure out whether you should buy this. If you should then I want to explain why it would be good for you. If it is ... but it might not be and I'll take you too." A lot of our customers are really good at this at well and it's kind of what brought them to us is that we also don't go for that hard thing. So Alex Hillman, Stackingthebricks.com and Pat Flynn I think is doing some really amazing marketing at SmartPassiveIncome. Josh Duty, Fearless Salary Negotiation, he's doing incredibly at SEO and then leading from that to courses in coaching and so on. Yeah, I'll stop there. Kathleen: That sounds like some great examples. Shai: Yeah. Kathleen: Well, I'll definitely put those links in the show notes because those are some new ones that I haven't heard before and that always makes me excited. Second question, with the world of digital marketing changing so quickly how do you personally stay up to date and educate yourself? Shai: Yeah. So much of what I'm learning about marketing at the moment is just from interacting with our customers. I don't have ... There are very, very few websites or podcasts that I subscribe to and listen to every one. I wait until the smart people I have surrounded myself with recommend something or start talking about something. That's when I take note. That's also my hack for not getting overloaded by all the new information. It's just ... Kathleen: It's easy to do. Shai: And it also, it means you're getting so many ... You're learning so many strategies from people who aren't quite in your realm. Like we were saying at the beginning, right, you take marketing and technology and you put them together. Of course that happens. When we start working with our customers who are like in the Bee photography world. That is a real thing. Yeah, they take photographs of bees and and honey and it's like the stuff that they're- Kathleen: That is incredibly niche. I love it. Shai: They're going to have totally different kinds of conversations than I am and learning stuff. So yeah, just surrounding myself with really different people I found far more effective than following one source. Also, just there's so much of these new marketing developments aren't new at all. It's all just kind of ... It's the old school marketing and then translated then now into the online space. A lot of that's what we're trying to do is taking stuff that makes sense in the real world and bring it on line. I find it's easier to learn about marketing from the old school. I try not to- Kathleen: A few people have said that to me, that some of their favorite marketing books are the ones from 40, 50 years ago. Shai: Hmm, 100%. It's the same in software. It's kind of the same in programming as well. There's these new technologies coming on the scene every week. Sometimes it pays to be just like, "The old stuff can work." Keep an eye on the new things but don't jump on them immediately. Will this really work in my business? Reason it out for best principles. Kathleen: That's great advice because I will say I think one of the weaknesses of most marketers I know is they fall very easily for shiny penny syndrome where there's that new thing. They want to try it but it's easy to get distracted and spend a lot of time and resources chasing that new thing as opposed to investing in things that are going to deliver for the long term. Shai: Yeah, especially when, like in the feedback look from trying sometime in your marketing to know whether it's working can sometimes be quite long. It can be really hard. You can try something new and you may not see results from it immediately depending on what it is but it may be working well and it may be about to work for your future. To that same thing is like, you start to see your metrics creep up. It could be from the thing you just did this week. It could be from the thing you did a few months ago and it's just taken time to really kick in. Kathleen: Yeah. Shai: So yeah, if you're immediately, it's like, "Oh no. I've tried this for week. It's not working. We've got to go and try something else" you're never going to, it's never going to work. How To Connect With Shai Kathleen: Well, it's so interesting hearing what you've learned through this process of looking at all these sites and I'm fascinated by what RightMessage can do and the fact that it's easy for anybody to use. If somebody wants to, has a question about what you talked about and wants to reach out and connect with you, what's the best way or them to do that? Shai: You can always ... My DM's open on Twitter @ShaiSC. Kathleen: This is how we met. Shai: It is, exactly. S-H-A-I-S-C. Yeah, that's going to be the easiest way to get a quick reply from me. Kathleen: And I can testify to that. It was very fast. I DM'd you and you responded right away. Shai: Yeah. Kathleen: Great, well I will but the link to your Twitter handle on the show notes and if you're listening and you enjoyed this, liked what you heard, as always I would really appreciate a five star review on Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice. If you're listening and you know somebody else doing kick ass inbound marketing work, Tweet me @workmommywork because I would love to interview them. Thank you so much, Shai. Shai: Thank you for having me.

What’s up, everybody! In this episode, I’m joined by Josh Doody, author and founder of Fearless Salary Negotiation. After successfully negotiating his own salary, Josh wrote a #1 bestselling book to help others learn his process. Soon after, he added video courses to help his students better implement the strategies. In this episode, Josh shares how he turned his book into an online course, why he still coaches clients, and what he's learned along the way. Having a visual component helps people to see in action the things written in my book Episode Quotes "I knew that I could learn a lot of valuable skills if I started learning how business actually works." "All I had to do was ask and they just gave me money for this job." "Creating the online course was a way to augment the book, but also to teach people who kind of think like me." "I definitely did design the book so that it's not necessarily meant to be completed." "I do this because I like helping people and it’s the best way to make a good living without having to go to a day job." Listen to Learn 01:17 Getting to know Josh Doody, Rapid 5 Questions 05:45 Josh's career and business journey 10:04 Overview of Josh's book (Fearless Salary Negotiation) 14:55 Augmenting the book with online courses 17:14 How Josh started the coaching component 21:33 A peek inside the course bundles 25:08 Creating actionable worksheets and templates 30:05 Gathering learners’ feedback and how to make use of it 35:33 Awesome things coming up from Josh, website links Get the Bonus Episode! Join us in the bonus segment! Josh and I discuss how he packages his courses, why he decided to offer coaching and how to resolve small pains in your business. Grab it here: https://get.zencourses.co/extra

How are your negotiation skills? Josh Doody's are expert level! He is the author of Fearless Salary Negotiation and an Expert Salary Negotiator for Software Developers! Learn about salary negotiation, why it's so important for employers and some common mistakes employers make when it comes to their employee's salary and career path as we talk with Josh Doody, Mike Dees and Collin Austin! 4:21 Josh Doody’s origin story 8:31 What was your product Taskbook 18:56 Are you still experimenting with the cost of your salary negotiation service? 25:04 What would you say is the average increase in income for your clients? 28:40 Give us an example of negotiation and what happened? 32:27 What do you say to an employer who asks you for what you think your salary should be? 41:44 How should employers approach salary negotiation? 45:34 Do you have any tips on how to figure out the market rate in your industry? 47:09 Creating a career path for your employees. 55:39 One of the challenges of living in a college town is the students usually only stay for the 4 years and then leave, how does an employer retain those type of employees? CONNECT WITH OUR GUEST: Josh Doody https://www.joshdoody.com/ https://twitter.com/JoshDoody https://www.instagram.com/thejoshdoody/ https://www.facebook.com/JoshDoody https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/ CHECK OUT OUR LAST EPISODE: Taking Risks in Entrepreneurship with Joe Cirulli from Gainesville Health & Fitness | WHOA GNV: https://youtu.be/cm3dVhIjv4g CONNECT WITH OUR PODCAST & NOMINATE A GUEST: https://www.whoagnv.com/ Instagram: http://instagram.com/whoagnv Facebook: http://facebook.com/whoagnvpodcast Twitter: http://twitter.com/whoagnv Know someone that would be PERFECT for our show? Nominate them here! https://www.whoagnv.com/nominate-a-guest/ Join us on the journey and listen on... iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/whoa-gnv-podcast/id1381002391?mt=2&i=1000410719480 Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/whoagnv/ Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/whoa-gnv-podcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3vZ0Bg4FJmdx3VPKg4ehMf?si=2ET-VhjXRtqIDUTp_Dau7w --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/whoa-gnv-podcast/support

Josh Doody, the author of Fearless Salary Negotiation, joins us today to discuss:What you need to look out for to stay ahead in the industryHow to find leverage despite the information asymmetry between the employer and the job candidateWhy questions on what your current salary is or what you'd like it to be boxes you out of opportunitiesThe best way to put in the work towards a promotion.Tradeoffs of working for a startup versus a big tech companyEquity in the salary negotiation, and how it weighs in.Transcript"Negotiating Your Salary and Advancing Your Career with Josh Doody" TranscriptResources:Fearless Salary Negotiation CoachingFearless Salary Negotiation BookThe Dreaded Salary QuestionSoftware Developers: How to get a RaiseSalary Negotiation GuideSalary Negotiation for Software Developers egghead TalkJosh Doody:TwitterLinkedInWebsiteJoel HooksTwitterWebsite

Today’s guest is Josh Doody. Josh is a salary negotiation coach. He’s the author of Fearless Salary Negotiation and helps his clients earn what they’re worth with the strategies and tactics he’s created and refined as both an employee and entrepreneur.

Author and Salary Negotiation Coach, Josh Doody, stopped by the People Stack to talk about getting more interview and job offers, the process and flow of negotiation, how his time as an engineer influenced his process, the art of the counteroffer, and more. Some links mentioned in the show: The Fearless Salary Negotiation homepage: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/ Josh's coaching page: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/coach/ Josh's article on how to answer “What's your current or expected salary?”: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/the-dreaded-salary-question/ The comprehensive Salary Negotiation Guide Josh mentioned: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/salary-negotiation-guide/ Special Guest: Josh Doody.

Josh Doody is a salary negotiation coach and author who helps software developers receive more job offers and negotiate higher salaries. In addition to helping clients one-on-one, Josh wrote the book Fearless Salary Negotiation, which includes his best strategies and tactics for getting paid what you're worth. The principles in this book can be used by anyone, not just software developers! Our conversation covers how Josh got inspired to pursue the art of negotiation, how to stand out during the interview and hiring process, some of his top salary negotiation strategies, and how to get promoted at your current company.  

Many people are afraid to negotiate be it for a raise or a salary offer for a new job. Josh’s approach is to follow a process that will allow him to accomplish the thing he is afraid of. If you can break something down into steps and just follow the steps, suddenly you’ve done it. When it comes to getting a raise, most of us could do better. Today we talk fearless salary negotiation tips with Josh Doody. Full Article Here Show Notes Imperial Donut Break: An Imperial Porter from Evil Twin Brewing. Salary Negotiation Sample Email: To counter offer once you have a job offer. Salary Increase Letter Sample: Asking for a raise. Josh's Twitter: You can reach him here. Fearless Salary Negotiation: Josh's site. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dandan catches up with Josh Doody to discuss his Amazon bestseller: Fearless Salary Negotiation and some key suggestions around: - How do you answer the "how much are you making" or "how much are you aiming to make" questions? - As a past hiring manager, what do HIRING MANAGERS REALLY want? - What resume designs will attract you the most? - Personal branding strategies Connect with Josh at fearlesssalarynegotiation.com And of course, continue tuning into the Daily DANDAN for everything career management! Sign-up at dandanglobal.com for more exclusive tips and the write-up of this podcast!

Rails Remote Conference 1:25 Introducing Josh Doody Twitter Fearless Salary Negotiation by Josh Doody Take his (free!) crash course in getting promotions 2:50 - Making salary negotiations when you’re your own boss 4:22 - Asking an employer to “give where it hurts” 6:20- Minimum Acceptable Salary / B.A.T. N. A. 10:45 - Leaving a new job for a better offer 13:47 - Job happiness versus job salary 15:55 - Contracting The Freelancers’ Show 18:55 - Renegotiating and peace of mind 21:00 - Researching the company 28:00 - Answering salary-based interview questions 33:20- Negotiating for a job you really want 35:00 - Common fears to negotiating 10 reasons you should NOT negotiate your salary 42:10 - Countering an offer (in writing) 48:55 - Negotiating with benefits and vacation 51:50 - Scripting a conversation 55:05 - Bantering with an employer 1:03:00 - Salaries higher than market value 1:06:00 - Negotiating with no work experience Picks: Negotiating Your Salary: How To Make $1000 a Minute by Jack Chapman (Dave) Jack Chapman’s salary negotiation video series: (Dave) Part 1  Part 2  Part 3  Part 4   Part 5 Hunter x Hunter (Dave) Negotiate with Chad (Jessica) Pokemon Go (Jessica) Wood Badge (Charles) Boy Scouts of America (Charles) Tifie Scout Camp (Charles) Penn & Teller: Fool Us Madhi Gilbert (Josh) Seveneves by Neal Stephens (Josh) Mystery Show podcast, “Case #3 Belt Buckle” (Josh)  

Rails Remote Conference 1:25 Introducing Josh Doody Twitter Fearless Salary Negotiation by Josh Doody Take his (free!) crash course in getting promotions 2:50 - Making salary negotiations when you’re your own boss 4:22 - Asking an employer to “give where it hurts” 6:20- Minimum Acceptable Salary / B.A.T. N. A. 10:45 - Leaving a new job for a better offer 13:47 - Job happiness versus job salary 15:55 - Contracting The Freelancers’ Show 18:55 - Renegotiating and peace of mind 21:00 - Researching the company 28:00 - Answering salary-based interview questions 33:20- Negotiating for a job you really want 35:00 - Common fears to negotiating 10 reasons you should NOT negotiate your salary 42:10 - Countering an offer (in writing) 48:55 - Negotiating with benefits and vacation 51:50 - Scripting a conversation 55:05 - Bantering with an employer 1:03:00 - Salaries higher than market value 1:06:00 - Negotiating with no work experience Picks: Negotiating Your Salary: How To Make $1000 a Minute by Jack Chapman (Dave) Jack Chapman’s salary negotiation video series: (Dave) Part 1  Part 2  Part 3  Part 4   Part 5 Hunter x Hunter (Dave) Negotiate with Chad (Jessica) Pokemon Go (Jessica) Wood Badge (Charles) Boy Scouts of America (Charles) Tifie Scout Camp (Charles) Penn & Teller: Fool Us Madhi Gilbert (Josh) Seveneves by Neal Stephens (Josh) Mystery Show podcast, “Case #3 Belt Buckle” (Josh)  

Rails Remote Conference 1:25 Introducing Josh Doody Twitter Fearless Salary Negotiation by Josh Doody Take his (free!) crash course in getting promotions 2:50 - Making salary negotiations when you’re your own boss 4:22 - Asking an employer to “give where it hurts” 6:20- Minimum Acceptable Salary / B.A.T. N. A. 10:45 - Leaving a new job for a better offer 13:47 - Job happiness versus job salary 15:55 - Contracting The Freelancers’ Show 18:55 - Renegotiating and peace of mind 21:00 - Researching the company 28:00 - Answering salary-based interview questions 33:20- Negotiating for a job you really want 35:00 - Common fears to negotiating 10 reasons you should NOT negotiate your salary 42:10 - Countering an offer (in writing) 48:55 - Negotiating with benefits and vacation 51:50 - Scripting a conversation 55:05 - Bantering with an employer 1:03:00 - Salaries higher than market value 1:06:00 - Negotiating with no work experience Picks: Negotiating Your Salary: How To Make $1000 a Minute by Jack Chapman (Dave) Jack Chapman’s salary negotiation video series: (Dave) Part 1  Part 2  Part 3  Part 4   Part 5 Hunter x Hunter (Dave) Negotiate with Chad (Jessica) Pokemon Go (Jessica) Wood Badge (Charles) Boy Scouts of America (Charles) Tifie Scout Camp (Charles) Penn & Teller: Fool Us Madhi Gilbert (Josh) Seveneves by Neal Stephens (Josh) Mystery Show podcast, “Case #3 Belt Buckle” (Josh)  

Josh Doody didn't negotiate his salary at his first few jobs, but quickly realized he had left a lot of money on the table. He began negotiating and doubled his salary in three years. He took everything he learned, began helping others. An author and consultant, he wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation, a number one bestseller on Amazon. Since then, he's helped many more people negotiate tens of thousands more dollars. “A lot of people are very intimidated by the negotiation process and can be scared of it. I'm trying to help you overcome that fear and actually negotiate.”

In episode 47 of the Graduate Job Podcast, I am joined by salary negotiation coach and bestselling author of the excellent Fearless Salary Negotiation, Josh Doody, as we discuss how to successfully negotiate your salary. In this half hour Josh shares some brilliant insights into how to increase your pay, whether you’re going for your first graduate job, or simply looking for a raise at your existing work place. We delve into why people can be scared to try to negotiate their salary, and why you need to understand your current market rate of pay before you do so. We examine how to answer the dreaded salary questions of ‘how much do you currently earn?’, and ‘how much are you looking for?’, and also explore why should always make a counteroffer to every salary that is proposed. No matter where you are on your job search, this is an episode which will put money in your pocket. As always, all links to everything we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/salary.  Before we start a quick request from me, your feedback helps me to create the episodes you want to hear, so I’ve set up a super simple and very quick survey, as I want the show to best serve your needs. It’s got 5 questions and will take you a minute, so please check it out at http://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/survey/ . I look forward to hearing your thoughts. But in the meantime, let’s crack on with the show. MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT: How to get over your fear of negotiating your salary Why you should always negotiate your salary? The importance of understanding your current market rate of pay Why you should always make a counteroffer to every salary you are offered How to avoid the dreaded salary question of ‘how much do you currently earn?’ Why you should be thinking about the minimum salary that you would accept Brilliant answers to the question about your desired rate of pay

The Great Recruiter Podcast, Episode #39: In this episode, Scott Love shares insights on how to hire recruiters. Scott also interviews Josh Doody who is the author of the book Fearless Salary Negotiation for insights into how to negotiate salaries between clients and candidates. Links mentioned:   https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com   www.greatrecruitertraining.com/freebies  

Episode 104 is live! This week, we talk with Josh Doody in Gainesville, FL. Josh is a salary negotiation coach, an author, and consultant. His book, "Fearless Salary Negotiation, is a step by step guide to getting paid what you're worth. His background includes a MBA from the University of Florida and bachelor's degrees in Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering from the University of Florida. On today's episode, Josh shares his tips on how to negotiate, how to research your value, and the differences between negotiating at your current company compared to a new company. Listen and learn more! If you've enjoyed the program today, be sure to subscribe to the Copeland Coaching Podcast on iTunes to ensure you don't miss an episode. To learn more about Josh, visit his website at https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com

Josh Doody was in a job he liked, doing work he enjoyed. But as he sized up the company and the prospects it offered, the 30-year upward trajectory, ending with a retirement party, didn’t spark his imagination. Instead, he just felt antsy. So, he took everything he’d learned, began helping others, and went out on his own. He wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation, a number one Best Seller on Amazon.com, and created online courses to help people learn how to negotiate like a pro and improve their own lives.

Today I’m interviewing Josh Doody and boy what a great interview. Josh has some excellent advice across a whole range of topics. In particular keep an ear out for his 2 step process to getting promoted. I really loved this interview with Josh. He had some great thoughts around gaining trust with your team, career advancement and creating your own competitive advantage. Josh is a former Electrical Engineer, Project Manager and Consultant in the Software Industry. He’s the author of the book “Mastering Business Email” and has recently released another book titled “Fearless Salary Negotiation”.   Topics covered in the show: Why he left the safety of a government job Empathy, the secret soft skill Managers need to facilitate the profitability of the business (keep your team happy) Going overboard with your team to improve communication flow Gaining trust with your team Stopping one-on-one's turning into status updates The 2 step process for getting promoted Looking for your competitive advantage when it comes to your career Josh's entrepreneurial journey and the two books he has written Logically doing things to set yourself up for a win Biggest joy comes from helping staff advance their career and personal goals Advice for new managers: Do the 2 step process for getting promoted Find a mentor and ask for input Immediately start building rapport with your team Links and resources mentioned in the show:  JoshDoody.com The Mastering Business Email Book The Fearless Salary Negotiation Book and Video The Two Step Process for Getting Promoted  Subscribe to MSP!   The post MSP 006 : Career Advancement Hacking with Josh Doody appeared first on Managing Smartly.

Josh Doody didn't negotiate his salary at his first few jobs, but soon began to realize he was leaving money on the table. Once He began negotiating and doubled his salary in three years. With the experience and confidence he gained from doubling his own salary, he began helping others increase their salaries as well. He took everything he learned from my own experience and helping others to write Fearless Salary Negotiation, a #1 Best Seller on Amazon. Since he published the book at the end of 2015, he has helped many more people earn tens of thousands more dollars. A special offer for CareerCloud Radio listeners: http://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/careercloud

Josh Doody didn't negotiate his salary at his first few jobs, but soon began to realize he was leaving money on the table. Once He began negotiating and doubled his salary in three years. With the experience and confidence he gained from doubling his own salary, he began helping others increase their salaries as well. He took everything he learned from my own experience and helping others to write Fearless Salary Negotiation, a #1 Best Seller on Amazon. Since he published the book at the end of 2015, he has helped many more people earn tens of thousands more dollars. A special offer for CareerCloud Radio listeners: http://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/careercloud

In this episode, Fearless Salary Negotiation author Josh Doody tells us how he’s treating his book launch like a startup, his plan for finding revenue streams as a self-published author, and more! Bootstrapped Product Talking Points How project management skills enable writing & launching a book Why you need to choose the right marketing channel Read More The post Episode 35: The Startup-Style Book Launch w/Josh Doody appeared first on Chasing Product.

In this episode, Fearless Salary Negotiation author Josh Doody tells us how he’s treating his book launch like a startup, his plan for finding revenue streams as a self-published author, and more! Bootstrapped Product Talking Points How project management skills enable writing & launching a book Why you need to choose the right marketing channel Read More The post Episode 35: The Startup-Style Book Launch w/Josh Doody appeared first on Chasing Product.