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Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay start off with two sounds of the summer from a divisive Love Island USA contestant and a popstar “standing on business.” Then, they explain the controversy brewing behind Partiful, the hip event invite app that was a rising star in the tech world, until an NYC Noise blog post brought up that Partiful's co-founders used to work at Palantir Technologies. Palantir is a data-analytics company co-founded by Peter Thiel, who was on President Trump's transition team and a prominent, billionaire donor to his campaign, and for years, Palantir has been in contract with the CIA and ICE. Then in April, 404 Media was able to obtain Slacks from Palantir that showed they were helping Trump's mass deportation effort. So, is Partiful canceled? And why are there no good invite apps left? Also: We're asking for your help on a future Pride episode! Send us your stories of coming out on social media. Whether you posted a quick tweet or produced a full on YouTube video about it, we want to hear from you! Did coming out online make things easier IRL or more complicated? Did seeing someone else's coming out post help you to do the same? Send us a voice memo at icymi@slate.com, and you might be featured on this future episode! This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay start off with two sounds of the summer from a divisive Love Island USA contestant and a popstar “standing on business.” Then, they explain the controversy brewing behind Partiful, the hip event invite app that was a rising star in the tech world, until an NYC Noise blog post brought up that Partiful's co-founders used to work at Palantir Technologies. Palantir is a data-analytics company co-founded by Peter Thiel, who was on President Trump's transition team and a prominent, billionaire donor to his campaign, and for years, Palantir has been in contract with the CIA and ICE. Then in April, 404 Media was able to obtain Slacks from Palantir that showed they were helping Trump's mass deportation effort. So, is Partiful canceled? And why are there no good invite apps left? Also: We're asking for your help on a future Pride episode! Send us your stories of coming out on social media. Whether you posted a quick tweet or produced a full on YouTube video about it, we want to hear from you! Did coming out online make things easier IRL or more complicated? Did seeing someone else's coming out post help you to do the same? Send us a voice memo at icymi@slate.com, and you might be featured on this future episode! This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay start off with two sounds of the summer from a divisive Love Island USA contestant and a popstar “standing on business.” Then, they explain the controversy brewing behind Partiful, the hip event invite app that was a rising star in the tech world, until an NYC Noise blog post brought up that Partiful's co-founders used to work at Palantir Technologies. Palantir is a data-analytics company co-founded by Peter Thiel, who was on President Trump's transition team and a prominent, billionaire donor to his campaign, and for years, Palantir has been in contract with the CIA and ICE. Then in April, 404 Media was able to obtain Slacks from Palantir that showed they were helping Trump's mass deportation effort. So, is Partiful canceled? And why are there no good invite apps left? Also: We're asking for your help on a future Pride episode! Send us your stories of coming out on social media. Whether you posted a quick tweet or produced a full on YouTube video about it, we want to hear from you! Did coming out online make things easier IRL or more complicated? Did seeing someone else's coming out post help you to do the same? Send us a voice memo at icymi@slate.com, and you might be featured on this future episode! This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay start off with two sounds of the summer from a divisive Love Island USA contestant and a popstar “standing on business.” Then, they explain the controversy brewing behind Partiful, the hip event invite app that was a rising star in the tech world, until an NYC Noise blog post brought up that Partiful's co-founders used to work at Palantir Technologies. Palantir is a data-analytics company co-founded by Peter Thiel, who was on President Trump's transition team and a prominent, billionaire donor to his campaign, and for years, Palantir has been in contract with the CIA and ICE. Then in April, 404 Media was able to obtain Slacks from Palantir that showed they were helping Trump's mass deportation effort. So, is Partiful canceled? And why are there no good invite apps left? Also: We're asking for your help on a future Pride episode! Send us your stories of coming out on social media. Whether you posted a quick tweet or produced a full on YouTube video about it, we want to hear from you! Did coming out online make things easier IRL or more complicated? Did seeing someone else's coming out post help you to do the same? Send us a voice memo at icymi@slate.com, and you might be featured on this future episode! This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay start off with two sounds of the summer from a divisive Love Island USA contestant and a popstar “standing on business.” Then, they explain the controversy brewing behind Partiful, the hip event invite app that was a rising star in the tech world, until an NYC Noise blog post brought up that Partiful's co-founders used to work at Palantir Technologies. Palantir is a data-analytics company co-founded by Peter Thiel, who was on President Trump's transition team and a prominent, billionaire donor to his campaign, and for years, Palantir has been in contract with the CIA and ICE. Then in April, 404 Media was able to obtain Slacks from Palantir that showed they were helping Trump's mass deportation effort. So, is Partiful canceled? And why are there no good invite apps left? Also: We're asking for your help on a future Pride episode! Send us your stories of coming out on social media. Whether you posted a quick tweet or produced a full on YouTube video about it, we want to hear from you! Did coming out online make things easier IRL or more complicated? Did seeing someone else's coming out post help you to do the same? Send us a voice memo at icymi@slate.com, and you might be featured on this future episode! This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
It is Mark Gruenwald's FIRST Cap story - introducing the maniacal menace of MADCAP! And BOB DOES VOICES!!! Plus... Rick & Bob talk about Happy Days, descrambling cable boxes, Slacks vs Trousers and Uptown vs Downtown!Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/l9wTX89lSQwLove the show? Help support with a one-time donation or become a member and get cool perks! https://buymeacoffee.com/capcomicfansConnect with Rick & Bob and fellow Cap fans at https://www.facebook.com/groups/captainamericacomicbookfans Please subscribe, rate and review! Email questions to CapComicFans@gmail.comOur home page is https://captainamericacomicbookfans.com
In this episode, Lesley Logan highlights stories of women using power for good, from world-changing philanthropists to unsung heroes like Marty Goddard. She also shares community wins and a personal productivity breakthrough that proves how small changes lead to big results. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co.And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How the world's richest women are quietly creating real impact.Marty Goddard's invention of the rape kit and why her story matters.How staying top of mind helps Tami-Adrian land another podcast feature.Lesley shares how she simplified her inbox and saved hours of work.Why small wins and consistent action add up to lasting change.Episode References/Links:Laura Craik's Article - https://beitpod.com/lauracraikBuy Back Your Time by Dan Martell - https://a.co/d/cMHFKJR If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! DEALS! https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentCheck out all our Preferred Vendors & Special Deals from Clair Sparrow, Sensate, Lyfefuel BeeKeeper's Naturals, Sauna Space, HigherDose, AG1 and ToeSox https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/memberships/perks/#equipmentBe in the know with all the workshops at OPC https://workshops.onlinepilatesclasses.com/lp-workshop-waitlistBe It Till You See It Podcast Survey https://pod.lesleylogan.co/be-it-podcasts-surveyBe a part of Lesley's Pilates Mentorship https://lesleylogan.co/elevate/FREE Ditching Busy Webinar https://ditchingbusy.com/ Resources:Watch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gLesley Logan website https://lesleylogan.co/Be It Till You See It Podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan https://onlinepilatesclasses.com/Online Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjogqXLnfyhS5VlU4rdzlnQProfitable Pilates https://profitablepilates.com/about/ Follow Us on Social Media:Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lesley.logan/The Be It Till You See It Podcast YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq08HES7xLMvVa3Fy5DR8-gFacebook https://www.facebook.com/llogan.pilatesLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesley-logan/The OPC YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@OnlinePilatesClasses Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00 It's Fuck Yeah Friday. Brad Crowell 0:01 Fuck Yeah. Lesley Logan 0:05 Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan 0:48 Hi, Be It babe. How are you? How's it going? Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, the Fuck Yeah Friday podcast. We talk about what is a win and we celebrate things that inspire us, and we have a mantra, and then we go about our day. So here we go, our win, or the inspiration, actually. The, well, I think this is a win too. So the inspiration that I found on the internet that really like made me happy. This, maybe, maybe it will make other people happy, but I love this. The title is What the World's Richest Men Could Learn From the World's Richest Women. And this is from Reshma's Instagram account, and Reshma had the bike face talk I'm pretty sure, and I really love her. So instead of fixating on power, living forever and winning the space race, Melinda French Gates, Laurene Powell Jobs, Anne Wojcicki and Mackenzie Scott are quietly trying to make the world a better place. So this goes on and talks about all the different things that these women are doing, but I just think, like, these ladies, I know, I bet you know their last names, these are our five richest women in the world, and they are doing epic, epic things from with the money that they have, and they're not doing anything to tear people down, to tear down a group of people. They're actually using their money for good. And so I truly, truly love that. These women are doing great things and so you should definitely look them up. There's an article from Laura Craick that was posted on February 5th 2025 so if you want to dive in more to what they're doing, and if you want to learn more about Reshma, I highly recommend it, because she talks a lot about worrying, about being, like, I only have a few minutes to say everything I was gonna say, and then, like, learning and meeting all these male CEOs and going, wait, you run this company, I can run circles around you, like, so it's just, I don't know. I found it really inspiring and I hope that you do, too. So go check that out. And let's all be more obsessed with what these women are doing, because I think that that's going to make us feel a whole lot better in this world with all that's going on. And let's be impressed and empowered and, and all the things from them. And then I'm going to give you one more thing, and I'm going to go into your wins. Lesley Logan 2:53 So meet Marty Goddard, the woman who invented the rape kit, while she didn't receive credit for her work, shocking, she revolutionized sexual assault forensics. Yeah. So get this, in the 1970s, few women felt safe. There's tons of sexual abuse. Spousal rate was still, was still legal, freaking crazy, until 1993. Let's not go into that, that's going to depress us all. But Marty Goddard was a volunteer for a phone hotline for runaway teens in Chicago. Many callers reported sexual abuse, but not necessarily to the police. Marty took upon herself to further investigate cases by visiting crime labs and hospitals, interviewing as many people as possible. And a standard was set. In doing this, she developed a standard by which evidence is collected following a rape. Her evidence collection kit included basic supplies, cotton swabs, a comb, paper bags, labeled envelopes and glass slides for semen specimens, plus protocols, forms and resources for victims, its simplicity made it affordable, replicable and the more likely to be adopted. The kit opened doors to our understanding of victims and abuse. In other words, these cases are no longer had to be a "he said, she said" sort of thing. She was not given credit. Under the nonprofit Goddard was running, the kit was trademarked as the the "Vitullo Evidence Collection Kit for Sexual Assault Examination." She routinely worked very closely with the police department order to make the progress she did, and an effort to not ruffle any feathers, gave the kit the name after police sergeant, Louis Vitullo. Newspapers credited Louis Vitullo, often reducing Marty Goddard to his assistant or ignoring her entirely. But she didn't chase recognition. She channeled her energy into expanding the kit's reach because impact mattered to her more than credit. So why it matters? The mention of the rape kit has helped countless victims find justice. Survivors still fight to be heard, but rape kits provide crucial evidence that strengthens their case. Hundreds of thousands of untested rape kits sit in a police storage. Goddard gave us a tool to fight for justice. It's up to us to push that fight forward with legislative reform funding and by holding law enforcement accountable for processing evidence in a timely manner. So you guys, we do have some work to do there. I would highly recommend calling your local people and like making sure that they're funding these things. But I just thought, how cool is this person? Like she was more she was more obsessed with getting people to adopt this kit and use it so people, victims, could actually get help. So it won't be a "he said, she said" and now she's getting the recognition that she deserves. Very, very cool. Lesley Logan 5:06 Okay, let's go and do a win of yours. So this is from Tami-Adrian George, and she said, a podcast about pickleball reached out to me to be my guest with my topic, Pilates for Players. The invite is a win by itself. And they why they contacted me is its own win. A second host from a completely different topic and show, I guess it's over a year ago, suggested my name with a lovely glow up. Like LL and Brad have said and has mentioned in many webinars, always about keeping in touch. I would comment on the second host post, listen to an episode and comment maybe three or four times a year and they remembered. And when I asked my college boy which friend group he'd be with and where they were going for spring break, he said he just really wants to come home and eat my cooking and curl up with his cats and chill. So cue the mommy tears. You know, I bought that plane ticket so fast. So I love this. How cool is that, that she made such an impact on one podcast and then she stayed in touch by just commenting. And then another podcast was like, oh, we want to have you on. Because the first podcast was like, yeah, this person has stayed top of our mind. So way to stay top of mind. Tam, it's not the easiest thing to do, and you did it. It all takes work, you guys. It all takes time and effort and energy, but stay in touch with people, even little things like liking and commenting. I tell you guys all the time, reviews on this podcast are, like, revenue. If you like this podcast, you don't have to send me money. You can actually just leave a review. Sharing this with other people, that's what does it right? These are things that podcast hosts think about. So way to go, Tami, you're amazing. Lesley Logan 6:37 Okay, so something I wanted to share that's, like, really exciting is I had this goal. So last summer, I heard about this book called Buy Back Your Time, and it's Dan Martell's book. And it's not something I was like, opposed to, like, oh, we always hire so it's not like a thing that we don't do. But he had a chapter about the inbox, about an email inbox, and I between my email inbox and all the Slacks that I'm in and the communities that I'm in, like, there's, I can't get to everything every day, and then I would get into my inbox, or I'd use my inbox to procrastinate, and it would derail the day, because there never would be something in there that wasn't time consuming. And so what his book suggested is that your assistant goes to your inbox and, like, organizes it, and then you only have to respond to the things you have to respond to, and then they can respond to things that they can respond to. I don't need to respond to someone that Tuesday at 1pm is great for a meeting. My assistant can see that 1pm is free. She can just book it for me, right? That's really cool. So anyways, I knew about this last summer, but I didn't have the time to implement it. There were so many things going on. So first of all, the first win is I did not force implementation of this during a time that we had too much going on, right? I set a goal that I wanted to implement this idea in Q1 of 2025, and guess what?, you guys, before mid March, we had, my assistant had, I read the chapter, she read the chapter, she implemented it, and we came up with systems at work before the end of March. So here we are, middle of May, almost end of May. And I can tell you right now I go into my inbox every day, and it can take under 15 minutes to respond to everything and then move on. And I don't feel like, oh my God, what's in there? What am I gonna see? Oh, I'm gonna get distracted by a pair of pants and procrastinate there. So anyways, that's my win. Really made me excited. Lesley Logan 8:14 So now, it's time for your mantra. Here we go. While the world praises big moves, I applaud the little acts of magic that can make it happen. So, while the world praises big moves, I applaud the little acts of magic that that make change happen. You are a badass. Thank you so much for listening until next time, Be It Till You See It. Lesley Logan 8:38 That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 9:20 It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 9:25 It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 9:30 Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 9:37 Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 9:40 Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
Richard shares his experiences and wisdom. He discusses a handful of key topics such as: the importance of mentoring, his leadership “Superpower”, advice to young leaders, and finding work-life balance. To go deeper with residents the Slacks use a funnel strategy. At the top of the funnel there are large events where the whole community is invited to attend. The next layer are small intimate events such as walking club or poker night. Then they have a Bible study night where they go deeper still. It is a winning combination.
This week with no JCB; Bill and 3 Beer Zach continue to fight the good fight without him. The 1 count is WWE. John Cena faces Randy Orton for the first time since Orton dropped Cena the night after WrestleMania. FRAXIOM returns to the main roster. Motor City Machine Guns DIY and the Street Profits have their own personal WrestleMania match. Sami Zayn catching hell from Seth Rollins and Bron Breakker. Pat McAfee challenges Gunther for a match at Backlash. The 2 count covers AEW. Collision highlighted with Top Flight vs the Kru and FTR vs the Paragon. The men's Owen Hart final is set as Hangman Adam Page will meet Will Ospreay. 8 man tag opens Dynamite where Kenny Omega and Okada meet in an AEW ring. Samoa Joe pays a price for his attack on Moxley then ups the ante on their title match. The 3 count is NXT. Joe Hendry returns to confront Trick Williams only to get attacked by Darkstate. Slacks and Tony D'Angelo face off. Ricky Saints vs Lexis King. Ava makes a 25 man battle royal; the winner faces Oba Femi for the NXT title. Some odds and ends to close the show!Available on all major podcast platforms! Listen Share Subscribe Repeat! Rate and review on Apple and Spotify!WWEAEWNXT
Are you feeling overwhelmed by the fast pace, chaos, and uncertainty in today's work environment? You're not alone. But here's the truth—you don't have to be at the mercy of the economy, or the latest round of layoffs. In this episode, I'll show you how to take control, define your own leadership brand, and create your own economy. You'll learn how to shift from reactive leadership to intentional leadership, master emotional resilience, and build security that isn't dependent on market trends. It's time to stop waiting for permission and start owning your executive power. Tune in and learn how to rise above the noise and be the inspiring, confident, and powerful leader you're SO meant to be. You got this!
PART 2 INTERVIEW WITH A FORMER DCS WORKER~~we only cut one intro so they're the same, don't be mistaken this is in fact Part 2~~Olivia tells us her moment to chat with Governor of TN, Bill Lee! We love Olivia. She also brings a story of her own to NFTF (as one does when they're a guest on this podcast) telling us the horror of Charlie Brandt, an American serial killer who had a fascination with human anatomy.
In this episode: Justin goes to a birthday party, drives a Tesla, and configures your BIOS. The compliments department is, as always, available at podcast@searls.co. Have some URLs: This is the combination air fryer / grill I bought Microsoft dropped support for non-SecureBoot PC updates last month Aaron's puns, ranked Nobody Cares Things we learned about LLMs in 2024 Judge ends man's 11-year quest to dig up landfill and recover $765M in bitcoin The Consensus on Havana Syndrome Is Cracking (News+) Meta kills diversity programs, claiming DEI has become “too charged” Google kills JavaScript-free searches Sonos still seems kinda fucked 5090s seem kind of like a scam The official Elder Scrolls: Oblivion remake leaked Switch 2 was unveiled Guy with 200bpm heart rate complains his watch isn't working (before admitting his heart isn't working) The Diplomat Conclave Severance Season 2 is out Marvel Rivals is a hit (with the Thirstlords) Indiana Jones and the Great Circle P.T. A Short Hike Transcript: [00:00:29] Well, good morning, everyone. If it's evening, where you are, well, it's not here. So that's just what you get. You get a good morning. You can save it for later, put it in your pocket, and then the next time the sun comes up, you can just remember, ah, yes, someone did wish me a good morning today. [00:00:48] You are currently, your ears are residing inside of Breaking Change, which is an audio production. Not to be confused with Breaking Bad, certainly not Breaking Good, just broken. [00:01:03] You know, now that officially, officially or unofficially, TikTok is down. It's unreachable in the U.S. Aaron has reported, our Seattle correspondent, for the broadcast, that even over his VPN, he can't get to TikTok. [00:01:24] His arms are itchy. He's scratching. He, ah, I hope, wherever you are, I hope that you and your loved ones and your teenagers are okay. [00:01:33] But yeah, anyway, now the TikTok is down. Maybe some of you are here, because you've got nothing else to do, and you need something to fill that void. So thank you for joining. [00:01:45] Something that I've been meaning to do at the beginning of this, of the show, for the last, well, seven versions, has been to kindly ask that you go into your podcast player of choice, and you rate and review the show. [00:02:02] I would prefer five stars on a five-star scale, but if it was a ten-star scale, you know, ten stars would be better. [00:02:10] Thumbs up, or whatever. Write a little review explaining why the fuck somebody would want to listen to an explicit language, you know, tech-adjacent programmer-ish gaming movie, whatever the fuck this is. [00:02:23] Dialogue, uh, because, uh, I have found that breaking change is a really hard pitch, you know, when, when, when, when explaining to people, it's like, oh, this is me talking, just like drive-time AM radio used to be, except instead of talking about a bunch of politically charged propaganda, uh, we're just hanging out, uh, and instead of having a commute, you know, you're walking a dog, or you're doing the dishes. [00:02:50] Although, I guess, you know, maybe you listen on a commute. [00:02:53] I, I, I've heard, I've heard from, from listeners on road trips, listening to entire episodes all in one stretch, and that's something else. [00:03:03] Uh, I have not heard from a lot of commuters, so if you listen to this while you're commuting, shout out at podcast at searles.co, uh, you know, if you're driving, don't, don't try to rate and review, you know, in a distracted fashion. [00:03:16] But, but next time you think of it, you know, you, you, you slam that five-star button. [00:03:20] You know what, it's, it's, I got a lot of subversive elements, you know, in my cadre of people, because I am a total piece of shit, and I attract, I attract the good and the bad, everyone in between. [00:03:32] But some of us, you know, we, we, we appreciate a good troll. [00:03:35] There is no better way to stick it to the man and, and confuse the hell out of people than for all of you to go and give this five stars in, in, in iTunes and, in your podcast player. [00:03:46] And then have a whole bunch of people, you know, have it surface in the algorithm for others. [00:03:51] And then they listen to this, and then they're like, what, what, what the fuck is going on to my ears right now? [00:03:55] Uh, I am very confused. [00:03:57] And if that's you, hell, you know what? [00:03:59] Oh, shoot. [00:03:59] But I'm, I'm speaking from the past. [00:04:01] Maybe this is the, the future where this is a lot of five-star reviews and some, some, some rando outside of Argentina is, is, is getting this put into their feed for them. [00:04:11] And now they're like, four minutes have passed. [00:04:14] What am I doing with my life? [00:04:15] Well, hello. [00:04:16] You are also welcome. [00:04:17] Good morning to you as well. [00:04:18] Uh, by the time you're listening to this, you know, I'm recording Sunday morning. [00:04:24] First thing, uh, I know from experience that it can be hard to pretend to work during a Trump inauguration. [00:04:33] So, uh, I figured that instead of pretending to work, you could be here with me instead if you're listening on Monday. [00:04:41] And if you're, if you're fortunate enough to have Monday off, um, you know, I guess one difference between the, uh, uh, the previous Trump inauguration. [00:04:51] And this one is that the, you know, inclusivity backlash against the Trump admin, you know, that has now recently receded. [00:05:02] If you're to believe the Bezos and billionaire class, uh, uh, has resulted in way, way more people who don't work at post offices getting MLK junior day off. [00:05:13] So I suppose many of us are not working on Monday, but regardless, this is a version 29 of the program titled super switch. [00:05:24] Which, you know, depending on the audience, I think a lot of, you know, probably what I mean by that. [00:05:29] We'll, we'll talk about it later. [00:05:30] Uh, in life news, it feels like it's been a way more than two weeks since I talked to y'all. [00:05:37] Uh, uh, uh, when you live in a theme park, there's just a lot going on. [00:05:42] People coming and going stuff to do, uh, uh, stimulation overload. [00:05:49] That's why I sound so just, you know, demure downbeat chill here is because I am exhausted permanently all the time. [00:06:02] Cause every time I leave the house, I am, I am just overstimulated. [00:06:05] Uh, last night we went to a birthday party of a friend, uh, in the, uh, Orlando proper part of Orlando, [00:06:12] whereas we live in theme park, Orlando. [00:06:14] So we had to, uh, drive over the, uh, the treacherous terrain known as I four, the deadliest stretch of highway in the United States in terms of, uh, only in terms of the number of people who die on it. [00:06:26] And the party was, uh, it was funny cause our, our friends, uh, they're building a house on this beautiful lake, huge property. [00:06:34] It's, it's absolutely gorgeous. [00:06:36] It's going to, the house is a custom build. [00:06:39] And a couple of years ago, uh, the one who's, whose birthday ended up being said, you know, we're going to have my 45th birthday party here at the house. [00:06:47] After it opens the water slide, you're going to DJs. [00:06:50] We're going to have, it's going to be a big blowout fest. [00:06:52] It's going to be awesome. [00:06:53] And then his husband was like, you know, it's, it's not going to be ready yet. [00:06:57] Don't get your hopes up. [00:06:58] And, uh, uh, sure enough, uh, both things came to pass. [00:07:04] The house is nowhere near ready. [00:07:05] It is an active construction site. [00:07:07] And they trolled us hard. [00:07:08] They said, Hey, come to this hotel. [00:07:09] We're going to have, you know, uh, uh, free valet or whatever. [00:07:12] And then like, like we go into like a normal kind of like typical ballroom thing and you get a cocktail. [00:07:19] And then these construction workers show up and they, they, they, they heard us into buses. [00:07:24] Uh, and so people are in their cocktail attire, you know, Becky wore, uh, I don't know if you'd call them heels, [00:07:32] but elevated shoes for, for first time in a while, more of a flats person, which I respect. [00:07:39] Cause I'm also a flats person and, uh, we all get into the bus and everyone's dressed up. [00:07:44] And then, uh, they, they, they drive us to, uh, the active construction site. [00:07:47] That is our friend's house. [00:07:49] And, uh, they had, uh, the events planners and everyone like, like actually just decorate the shit out of, you know, what, what is a lot of concrete block first floor of most homes around here is concrete. [00:08:01] And so the bones of the house are up and they just decorated it with kind of construction paraphernalia, orange cones. [00:08:07] All of the staff had, uh, you know, orange vests on, uh, we were all given hard hats. [00:08:11] Uh, the theming was truly on point. [00:08:15] Weather was perfect. [00:08:16] Uh, and, uh, you know, it was a big raucous affair, raucous raucous, you know what I mean? [00:08:23] So that was great. [00:08:24] Uh, we didn't even stay out that late, but I feel like I got hit by a truck, uh, this morning. [00:08:29] Uh, I, I kept it to a two drink maximum, which is my new go-to rule of thumb. [00:08:34] Uh, uh, cause I always end up barely regretting the third from a, from a, an ability to sleep perspective. [00:08:43] Afterwards, uh, other life stuff, you know, like the logistics following the death of my father. [00:08:48] First of all, thank you very much for many of you wrote in to express sympathies, uh, probably don't, don't need to put them all in the mailbag. [00:08:55] Cause that after a certain point, it started reads like, you know, reading birthday cards on air, uh, in terms of they all, you know, not to diminish anyone's, uh, extension of grief, uh, or, or, or sharing their own stories. [00:09:08] But there's a certain, you know, beginning, middle and end format to, to, to, to, to, no one knows what the fuck to say. [00:09:15] I don't know what to thank you. [00:09:18] Um, but yeah, like I know just sort of like finances and, and forensics front of trying to figure out how to tease out all the complexities of his life that he never really told anyone about and didn't certainly didn't document, uh, that the work continues still trying to help my mom consolidate her situation. [00:09:36] It's been, you know, just a lot of very procedural. [00:09:42] All right, find all the stuff, organize the stuff, come up with a to-do list, figure out how to like approach this, make all the phone calls that you need to make to all these institutions to, to, to, to, to iron it out and to, to continue fact finding or to, to, to give, you know, furnish whatever documentation they need. [00:09:57] And, and, and because it's been so, uh, I guess transactional wrote, like not to say it's colored my perception of dad or anything, you know, one way or another. [00:10:11] Uh, but it's definitely, when I look back on this era of my life, of course, his passing is going to stand out in sharp relief, but like, that was like a week of stuff. [00:10:21] And then the rest of it is going to be like three months of stuff. [00:10:25] Uh, and so I wonder how that's going to affect how I, how I, how I look back on it. [00:10:28] But one of the things I noticed is a lot of different service providers, uh, like banks, for example, that have, uh, uh, you know, bills coming up, you know, you got a credit card bill and let's say it's due. [00:10:45] Uh, I, I don't know why I'm blanking, but January 25th and then January 18th comes around and it says, Hey, you have a statement due January 25th. [00:10:54] Or you got an upcoming bill or you, your bill is ready to be paid. [00:10:58] And when I get an email like that, so I just got one from dad or, you know, for dad's account from us bank. [00:11:05] And I was like, shit. [00:11:07] Cause I know he didn't have auto pay set up in a lot of places. [00:11:09] Uh, and like, do I have that login? [00:11:12] Like, you know, do I have to coordinate with mom to get the SMS thing? [00:11:15] Like I get into it. [00:11:16] And then sure enough, like, cause I thought I'd set up auto pay. [00:11:19] I even had a to-do list that said, set up auto pay for this. [00:11:21] And, uh, auto pay was set up. [00:11:23] It was just emailing me unnecessarily anyway. [00:11:25] You know, if you're going to have a recurring payment or an auto payment set up, it, you know, it's, it's okay to notify the customer that there's another bill coming, but it would be really sweet. [00:11:36] If like auto pay is enabled, just so you know, you're going to, you're set to auto pay this on X and X date, uh, because if you got, you know, as many cards as some people have, uh, it can get kind of exhausting to, to just worry about, uh, well, I hope that's, that's all set up. [00:11:53] So it's, uh, things like that are just like random nonsense stressors and the amount of context switching, because you're constantly getting emails and calls from different, from all corners. [00:12:03] I normally screen my calls really aggressively, but you know, this month I've got a pretty much [00:12:08] answer it no matter who's calling, which is not my favorite. [00:12:10] And I've, I've found myself falling into something that I never thought I would do. [00:12:17] Uh, maybe it's cause I turned 40 this week, but I'm, uh, I've always associated this with like [00:12:24] an old, a generational thing. [00:12:26] When somebody asks me a yes, no question, I've started saying yes or no. [00:12:31] Like the literal word, yes. [00:12:33] And that might sound mundane to you, but in my family growing up, the word, yes, always felt [00:12:41] violent because everyone always had more to say, or they had a compulsion to soften it, you know, [00:12:49] like, yeah, sounds a lot, um, neutral, accepting, open, soft. [00:12:58] Then yes, there's a certain like hardness to yes. [00:13:01] You ask a yes, no question. [00:13:02] The person says, yes, it feels like there's a period at the end of that. [00:13:05] And when you say, yeah, or okay, or all right, or, you know, you give some sort of like, you know, [00:13:11] like an invitation to either continue with a follow-up question or, you know, be, be open to maybe a retort or something. [00:13:20] And so I had a colleague once who is, you know, the previous generation who is my superior. [00:13:25] And, uh, his name was Daryl. [00:13:28] Daryl's a lovely person. [00:13:29] But every time I asked Daryl a question and I was asking him a lot of questions because I didn't know shit about fuck. [00:13:34] And he knew a lot of things about everything he would, he would answer every yes, no question with just the word yes or the word no. [00:13:43] And it felt so stifling and cruel and like, you know, like, why is he shutting me down like this? [00:13:51] Even though he's literally answering in the affirmative, there's something about the word yes. [00:13:55] When unadorned with any sort of softeners or explanation or exposition or, or, or, or, or justification or, or invitation to, to, to follow up that feel there's the finality of it feels just rude, even though it is very literally fine. [00:14:12] So I caught myself doing that and I guess I've become a yes man. [00:14:16] Other life stuff. [00:14:22] Our ninja, we have a, uh, we seem to have like every ninja kitchen appliance, um, just in some sort of rotation around, uh, you know, our, our kitchen and it feels to me like every modern home that every year, the, there's like a, a counter surface inflation where the counters keep getting bigger. [00:14:44] The kitchen islands keep getting bigger. [00:14:46] And then the, almost a, um, sort of like how a, a gas will expand to fill its container. [00:14:54] Like ninja appliances will continue getting invented to fill all available counter space in every home. [00:14:59] Uh, and the reason that ninjas been so successful is that unlike Hamilton beach and Cuisinart and stuff like their, their products are actually pretty good and do what they say on the tin. [00:15:09] But we had a, uh, one of the air fryer units that can also, you know, pretend to be a grill, even though like all that's really happening is a hairdryer is blowing downward onto your food and any sort of heating element underneath is indirect. [00:15:20] Uh, we had one of those and, you know, it just kind of got grody and gross from lots of oil and, and repeat washings and, you know, food stuck to the basket. [00:15:31] And it was, it was, it was no longer, you know, how sometimes you use one of these appliances, you don't clean it as intentionally or as frequently as maybe the instruction manual tells you to. [00:15:42] And eventually your food starts tasting like, you know, the bottom of the, uh, the, the, the, the, the deep fryer at, at McDonald's, like, just like that oil tarry kind of like, you know, afterglow. [00:15:55] Which makes, it takes, it really takes the shine off of, uh, whatever the omega threes that you're trying to get out of your fishes. [00:16:00] Uh, so, so we, we bought a new one and what I really wanted out of a new one was one with like multiple heating elements. [00:16:08] Like where, where there was an actual grill that could sear stuff and cook from the bottom up, but also a convection oven that could crisp it up and, and, and, and sort of dehumidify. [00:16:18] And amazingly, Ninja does sell this product. [00:16:22] Uh, it was called, uh, see if I can link to it. [00:16:25] The Ninja convection plus grill. [00:16:27] Oh no, that wasn't it. [00:16:28] It's, it's got a name. [00:16:29] Uh, something, something, grid IG 651. [00:16:35] Okay. [00:16:35] There you go. [00:16:35] I'll put a link in the show notes. [00:16:37] Uh, so the IG 651, whatever, it's got like a barbecue griddle on it. [00:16:41] It seems, it seems nice. [00:16:43] Uh, and it does exactly that. [00:16:46] It's got like a big wide surface element. [00:16:48] You can, you, you plug it in. [00:16:49] It's a very complicated, unnecessarily. [00:16:51] So a complicated thing where it's, it looks like you kind of take a George Foreman style griddle. [00:16:55] It's angled forward, meaning like it's got, you know, uh, I said griddle at just like the slabby kind of, of, of metal slats, slats, you know, where you, you put the burger on it. [00:17:07] And then it's like, you know, remember the George Foreman marketing? [00:17:10] I'm sure you do like, you know, like it's like at the, like, like the, the squeezing iconography to, to indicate like the fat is coming out and then that will make this healthier, even though the fat is often the best part. [00:17:20] Uh, so it's, it's got that it plugs into some like electrical, you know, electrode input thing with two little donguses. [00:17:28] I don't know why I'm even trying to explain this. [00:17:30] It's fine. [00:17:30] And you plug that in, you can wash it separately, but you can put a griddle on top that kind of maps to it. [00:17:36] So it'll pick up that heat. [00:17:37] And that is a flat surface, which can be nice. [00:17:40] If you're, if you're maybe, you know, toasting a sandwich or something. [00:17:46] And yeah, the thing about it, the thing about that search was that trying to answer the question of what heating elements are in this smart cooking appliance proved to be extremely difficult. [00:18:00] You go to the Amazon listing, you go to the product page. [00:18:03] I read up on every single Ninja product that does this. [00:18:06] I started looking at other products that do this. [00:18:09] I started looking at things that ran themselves as smart ovens that, you know, advertise having, uh, multiple heating elements, you know, like the June oven did this. [00:18:16] I think that's out of business now. [00:18:18] Tovala did this. [00:18:18] I think that's going out of business now where they would have, you know, like, um, maybe a microwave element plus a steam cooking element, or maybe they'd have a convection fan inside and also, um, an induction plate underneath. [00:18:31] And none of them have really taken off in the U S unfortunately, uh, such that. [00:18:39] It is a product category that the consumers are educated about, like what they're getting into in Japan. [00:18:45] There's a product called health. [00:18:46] You know, like literally like health EO, but THs are hard and it's got like the basic models have four or five different ways to heat your food. [00:18:56] And then like, it's really smart in that you, you punch in a code, like a recipe code, and it'll just do everything cradle to grave for you with the advanced sensors that it has. [00:19:04] And kind of move between whatever combination at whatever point in the cooking process, all of those heating elements need to be arranged. [00:19:11] And so things come out almost better than a human could do them because they never have to be removed from this hermetically sealed environment, you know, for people's hands to come in and, and, and adjust how the thing is being heated. [00:19:26] Because in Japan, that product has been so successful that the two or three different tiers of that product, not only are they all good, but like, no one needs to be explained what's there. [00:19:36] Like the, the, the, the, it could just be like the higher level of literacy and, and, and education generally in Japan. [00:19:42] But in general, like, it's just, it's really straightforward. [00:19:46] And here, it seems to be that like people just want a device that they can throw food in. [00:19:52] And then as long as they're picking off a menu and it has words like grill, they will feel good about it. [00:19:58] And no one's going to ask, where's the heat coming from? [00:20:01] How is this getting cooked? [00:20:02] Which now that I say it, of course, like Americans don't give a fuck how the thing gets accomplished or without it gets accomplished well, typically, uh, just that, uh, you know, they know what box to put the food in and then the button to hit, which is, you know, a little bit condescending, but, you know, y'all have earned it in my opinion. [00:20:20] Uh, so yeah, we got it. [00:20:22] It works. [00:20:22] Uh, uh, as far as I know, I turned it on the preheating started. [00:20:26] We have not yet, you know, broken the seal and actually cooked with it yet, but I'm glad, I'm glad to have that because I think, I think, I think. [00:20:32] Shit will turn out better, especially salmon, which is increasingly the number one thing that we were using our air fryer for, which was an inefficient, uh, use case. [00:20:40] Speaking of the parks being really busy, uh, and, and life here being overstimulating on Friday, I found myself really testing the fences on this new being 40 year old thing. [00:20:55] I, uh, got up at 5am with Becky. [00:20:59] We had a special event at Disney's Hollywood studios that started at six. [00:21:03] We got there. [00:21:04] There were other people there. [00:21:05] We went to bed early, you know, to, to, to, to be able to, to do this and not be super groggy and miserable, had a great time. [00:21:13] And then we had some friends coming into the park just about an hour after that, that, that event wrapped. [00:21:18] And so we went and visited with them for a little bit. [00:21:20] Then we came home and tried to recover some sort of a productive day by then it was noon. [00:21:25] Uh, and then that evening, cause the same friends that they had their big day, I wanted to debrief with, uh, uh, my buddy before he, uh, John, his name is John. [00:21:35] He is a listener of the program. [00:21:38] So hi, John. [00:21:38] Hello. [00:21:40] Uh, when to do debrief with him. [00:21:43] So we went over to a bar called trader Sam's, which is a grog grotto. [00:21:47] It's in the Polynesian resort hotel. [00:21:49] And it's one of my favorite bars because it's got like a lot of like little imagineering knickknacks and stage elements that, that have since become very common at Tiki bars. [00:21:58] But we got in there, we spent a couple hours and then pretty soon I realized, Oh fuck, it's midnight. [00:22:03] And I've literally been Disney it up to some extent, uh, since 6am. [00:22:10] And so, you know, I actually, I got a second wind in there, but I ultimately didn't get, get to bed until like two. [00:22:16] Uh, so that was a, it was a big day. [00:22:19] I feel like I did all right. [00:22:20] Uh, from an energy level perspective, I think I, I was the person that I needed to be in all of the interactions I had that day. [00:22:28] And that's probably the most I can say. [00:22:29] Uh, I'm simultaneously finding that my body is falling apart. [00:22:33] My, my, uh, left hip is pretty grumpy. [00:22:38] Uh, it's just some sort of like a constant dull discomfort, uh, feels like a dislocated shoulder, but no matter how much PT I do, [00:22:46] I, I, I seem to never fully, fully beat it. [00:22:49] Um, I need a smart, the smart oven equivalent for, for, uh, you know, muscle therapies that people do. [00:23:00] It's like, Oh, you can get some of the, it'll, it'll apply the icy hot and also, you know, drill you with a Theragun and also massage you and also use the, you know, resistant bands exercises to strengthen it. [00:23:09] Uh, just all simultaneously. [00:23:10] Cause it's like this round robin of, of attempts I've had to, to restore this fucking hip. [00:23:17] Uh, it has been great. [00:23:19] So that's been a constant thing. [00:23:21] New things are like my right knee now hurts like hell. [00:23:23] My left, my left heel, just the skin started cracking from how dry it's been here. [00:23:28] And of course it's still way more humid here than the rest of the nation, but apparently my skin is so used to the humidity, uh, that I just woke up one morning and it hurt to walk because all my skin was exposed because all my skin and my foot had cracked. [00:23:40] You know, like what the hell's going on? [00:23:42] So, uh, if you're, uh, approaching 40 and you're worried about it, good. [00:23:48] I don't know that I recommend it so far, uh, but I'm still here, still kicking. [00:23:53] Uh, uh, well, I, so far I almost didn't make it to be honest. [00:23:59] Uh, you know, well, I, if I'm going to talk about this next topic, uh, it's something that's come up in the show before. [00:24:09] And so I think that technically makes it follow up. [00:24:11] So let me hit this button right here. [00:24:13] Yeah. [00:24:20] So speaking of dying right before you turn 40, I, I'd mentioned that I four interstate four that runs east, west in, uh, through bisecting Orlando. [00:24:37] It's, uh, known to be, and I fact checked this against GPT cause I knew I'd probably end up talking about it. [00:24:45] Deadliest stretch of highway in the U S and you know, I'm a, I'm an experienced driver insofar as I've been driving for 24 years. [00:24:54] I don't like love it. [00:24:56] I'm not a car guy. [00:24:57] Uh, I, I feel like I drive fine, relatively safely, probably more on the conservative side. [00:25:05] Overall. [00:25:06] I do speed from time to time, but you know, as long as if you're in America and you're speeding, as long as you use the phrase flow of traffic, uh, you can do whatever you want. [00:25:17] And the problem is that when you live in theme park Orlando and you need literally anything that is not entertainment and hospitality related, uh, like for example, you know, I, I, and this is what puts this into the followup bucket of content. [00:25:35] Uh, I've been talking on and off about having, uh, struggling with snoring. [00:25:38] You know, I've been, uh, uh, doing that thing that a lot of middle-aged husbands start doing and deciding to interrupt their spouse's sleep by, by, by suddenly picking up this cool new habit. [00:25:49] That is just making wheezing sounds all night long. [00:25:53] And mine's really inconsistent. [00:25:56] It's clearly triggered by something. [00:25:57] Couldn't really tell what, you know, is it diet or whatever. [00:26:00] It's like clearly like none of the symptoms of apnea. [00:26:03] So that's probably not it. [00:26:04] Given that I feel fully rested after like four hours and I've never feeling short of breath. [00:26:08] Uh, you know, the new Apple watch has an apnea detection and it seems to not be detecting any apnea. [00:26:16] So I finally got a sleep study ordered and the doctor who is a very nice lady, she, you know, she's just like the reality of insurance right now is, uh, I will put in a request for an in, in a let in lab sleep study. [00:26:33] So we can watch you because the alternative is an at home sleep study. [00:26:36] And based on everything you're saying, there is a 0.0% chance that that at home sleep study is going to find anything. [00:26:44] Uh, and then I was like, well, then let's just do the in lab. [00:26:46] Like you're saying, well, she's like, oh, the insurance will surely deny based on what you're saying, uh, an in lab sleep study. [00:26:53] Uh, you have to do, you have to go through the motions of this at home sleep study first, and then it has to show nothing. [00:27:00] And then I can put in a script again for the in lab. [00:27:04] Uh, and, and then the prior authorization will go through and then you'll be able to do that. [00:27:09] And so I have to kind of do this performative nothing operation, just nothing like procedure, operation procedure. [00:27:18] It's over, you know, like diagnostic, you know, just to check some boxes and money is changing hands invisibly to me at every step. [00:27:27] Of course, for the most part, thanks, thanks to having health insurance. [00:27:30] So I, I, I schedule this and it's an at home sleep study. [00:27:36] Like there are services that mail these units, you know, they could ship it. [00:27:40] I could, I don't know, find a courier or something, but nope, this one, I have to drive to the other fucking side of Orlando, which is, you know, it's 20 miles, but it's like a 45 minute hour long adventure. [00:27:49] And I have to calling them the rules of the game were that I had to, uh, drive there Sunday night to pick it up, come back Tuesday night to drop it off. [00:28:00] And they, because of sleep study locations, this is like an actual, you know, testing center. [00:28:07] Uh, they literally open at 6 30 PM in the evening. [00:28:10] Uh, you know, so that's when their shift starts. [00:28:13] So I had to get there at 6 30. [00:28:15] So that means like, I'm basically fighting through rush hour into town and then pick it up and now I'm coming back home and now it's like eight. [00:28:22] So I guess I'll just eat dinner by myself or whatever. [00:28:25] Uh, and it's not like in a part of town where it's like, Hey, we can go downtown and like make a date, make a night date night out of it and go to like a fun restaurant. [00:28:33] It's like, this is a, I don't know what I, I have many times in this program suggested you should move to Orlando. [00:28:41] Orlando's great. [00:28:41] I love life in Orlando, but like whenever I leave the bubble of like theme park party time, Orlando, where everything's just really, really nice and customer service is incredible. [00:28:50] And the food's really great. [00:28:52] And, and it's just a party. [00:28:53] Uh, and I go to like real Florida. [00:28:56] I'm like, Oh yeah, I need to stop recommending people move to Orlando. [00:28:59] Cause this is like the median experience. [00:29:01] And I wouldn't, I would not, I can't do this for an hour. [00:29:05] I don't know how I would possibly live here. [00:29:07] No offense to Orlando, but I, uh, I went and I picked it up. [00:29:12] I drove my car there on Sunday night and traffic was pretty bad, but it's always pretty bad. [00:29:18] I had numerous cases of people jumping in front of the car on the way onto the highway. [00:29:23] Once I was on the highway, I get into the new express lanes, which do make things easier. [00:29:27] You pay a toll and you get, uh, you know, expedited traffic. [00:29:30] Um, and somebody had pulled over into the shoulder. [00:29:34] And as soon as he pulls over, he just whips open his, his driver's side door off of the shoulder. [00:29:41] And now the door is in my lane. [00:29:43] And there's of course, somebody on my left causing me to, uh, flip out and have to slam the brakes to, to the point of like, you know, bad enough that smoke is happening. [00:29:53] Right. [00:29:53] Like you can smell the burnt tire because this dude is just like, I'm on the highway. [00:29:57] I can open my door. [00:29:58] I'm a, I'm a big man. [00:29:59] I'm driving a truck. [00:30:00] So I chose not to blow his door off. [00:30:05] Uh, then on the way home, it was one of those ordeals where, uh, it's a, a sign said congestion, like eight, four miles ahead. [00:30:16] I was like, oh, four miles. [00:30:17] Okay. [00:30:17] Maybe I'll find an opportunity to take, get off the highway or I'll get onto the express lane and try to avoid it. [00:30:21] And, uh, Apple maps was saying I should turn right at the Kia center, which is like where the Orlando magic play. [00:30:27] And then take three more rights and then get back on the highway. [00:30:30] And I was like extremely convinced that this was just some sort of, you know, Apple maps fuckery. [00:30:36] Uh, and, and the nav and the computer being wrong because it often is, I was like, I'm going to stay on the highway. [00:30:42] I'm a smart guy and the instant that I passed that exit that it wanted me to take, everything became a parking lot and, and such a parking lot that it became road ragey pretty quickly with people driving and shoulders and honking and trying to edge each other out and motorcycles going between lanes. [00:30:58] And, and, and there's just a, you know, there's probably a metric that you could use for any civilization called like, uh, TTMM time to Mad Max. [00:31:10] And Florida has a very low TTMM, you know, it doesn't take long at all for every man for himself, uh, instincts to seemingly kick in. [00:31:22] So I, I did the rerouting and now, now the phone is telling me, all right, well, you know, literally it's so demoralizing. [00:31:32] You see the ETA to your home arrival move literally 40 minutes immediately because I chose not to take it's very wonky prescription of three right turns. [00:31:42] And now I realized in hindsight, the reason it wanted me to do that is there's a direct entrance onto the express lane. [00:31:47] And so not only did the ETA go up, not only do I have the regret that I didn't listen to the computer for, for telling me to do a stupid thing, but I also now am shamed by the insult on wounds here. [00:31:58] The left of me, the express lanes are wide open and there's just like five cars just having a great time going 80 miles an hour to get to where they want. [00:32:05] And everybody else is left in just this, this, this, this absolutely falling down style, uh, traffic jam, uh, or just after dark. [00:32:17] I did get home, I, I took a side street and it was one of those ordeals where you, you know, you take the side street, go up a couple of blocks, you go, you know, uh, turn left, kind of go, I don't know, maybe a half mile just past wherever, whatever accident was causing the congestion. [00:32:34] Then you get back on the highway. [00:32:34] And the problem was, of course, we all have automated navigation systems. [00:32:41] They all reroute us. [00:32:42] And so that was immediately backed up there that it was three traffic lights of people in the left lane, trying to, to turn onto that third traffic light. [00:32:52] And I, it would have been another 20 minutes just waiting for those light changes. [00:32:56] And so I just, you know, fortunately I had a brain and I was like, all right, I'm going to just blow past this and go in the right lane and drive forward three, three intersections and then do a U-turn turn right. [00:33:08] And then I, I successfully beat the rush and I got home and I, it merely only wasted 20 minutes of my time, but here, this story has already wasted five minutes of your time. [00:33:16] So it was death defying because even once off the highway, virtually none of those drivers had ever been on those side streets or in that neighborhood before. [00:33:27] And they were all driving like it and they were all driving like it and it was dark and there were not adequate streetlights. [00:33:31] So, uh, you know, it's not just that like Florida drivers are bad, but like you are surrounded by a certain number of frazzled dads who just picked up rental cards, cars from MCO, who are trying to get to their Disney hotel, who just had a flight delay, whose kids are screaming. [00:33:48] And nobody's happy like that is the default and that is the best case energy because like, you know, that's before you consider the, the, the capital F capital M Florida men and the tweakers and everyone else that just kind of contributes to this diverse fabric of society that we live in. [00:34:08] So, uh, that was a bad experience. [00:34:12] I, I did get home, you know, I am still with us, but by the time I got home, I was, I was so fried. [00:34:18] Like I, I, I, I, I didn't want to hang out. [00:34:22] I didn't want to talk to Becky. [00:34:22] Just wanted to like pour a whiskey and collapse. [00:34:25] Uh, the stress level is so high. [00:34:28] Like, and you can, I looked at my watch, right. [00:34:30] And I was looking at like the heart rate history and I was like, you know, I was white knuckling it. [00:34:34] Um, and that's, and that's partly on me, right? [00:34:36] Like I just, I don't, I don't like that kind of driving. [00:34:39] I don't like that stress. [00:34:39] Two days later, when I had to drop this device off, uh, the device itself was terrible, by the way, it was probably less sophisticated than my Apple watch and probably reading like less accurate, uh, heart rate. [00:34:57] And, and even the, the modern Apple watch like does track breathing. [00:35:00] That's how it does a sleep apnea thing, uh, uh, through the magic of gyroscopes. [00:35:05] And, uh, this device is a piece of shit and I'm sure somehow the rental fee for, for a one-time use was $1,500 to my insure. [00:35:12] Uh, and I'm sure it found nothing. [00:35:15] I can totally, like, I don't know how it would find anything. [00:35:17] Uh, it looked like it was built out of, you know, Teddy Ruxpin era, you know, technology in the mid eighties with, with the, the quality of the, the, the straps and the plastic. [00:35:29] I could just, but when I had to, when it, when time came to drop it off, I really did not want to repeat that experience on a weeknight when you, you know, traffic would be even worse. [00:35:41] And so I, I humbly asked my brother who has a Tesla, I said, Hey, uh, there's another follow-up item. [00:35:48] We, we, we, we picked it up together just in October. [00:35:51] I think, uh, I said, Hey man, like, can I swing by or you swing by drop off your Tesla? [00:35:59] He did some stuff to do at our house anyway. [00:36:01] And he's got the full self-driving like, like, uh, they keep renewing a 30 day trial for him. [00:36:09] And, uh, you know, full self-driving isn't, it is, uh, the car will drive itself. [00:36:14] You don't have to touch the wheel. [00:36:16] It, it, it, it, it's very conservative. [00:36:18] It has three modes, chill, uh, normal and hurried or hurry. [00:36:23] I've never tried hurry. [00:36:24] I don't need to try hurry. [00:36:26] I just stick on chill because at the end of the day, as long as I get to where I'm going, [00:36:29] I sort of don't care. [00:36:30] I'm not in a big rush. [00:36:32] Uh, I have the luxury of not needing to be anywhere in any particular pace. [00:36:37] As long as I leave on time, you know, I'm, and I'm going to get there by the time I promise [00:36:41] the chill is good with me and the, you have to supervise it. [00:36:48] And it was the case when the full self-driving crap and Tesla's first hit that people were, [00:36:55] you know, at first it was just like pressure testing the steering column. [00:36:58] And so people would like use like, uh, uh, weights, like, like weighted wristbands and [00:37:04] stuff to like make it trick the steering column into thinking that somebody was holding onto [00:37:08] the wheel. [00:37:08] Uh, and now they have cameras that look at you like inside the cabin and that, that camera [00:37:15] is using some amount of intelligence to determine that you're distracted or not. [00:37:19] So if you are looking a lot at the central, uh, tablet, it'll bark at you and say, Hey, pay [00:37:23] attention to the road. [00:37:25] If you're looking at your phone, it'll do the same. [00:37:26] If you're looking at a watch, you know, like I've had it even like when I'm talking to the [00:37:30] watch and looking forward, have it bark at me. [00:37:31] And as soon, as soon as it does it, it makes a beep and then it gets increasingly aggressive [00:37:36] and beeps louder. [00:37:37] You impressively. [00:37:39] I say this because like, you know, I'm sure that the reason it's like this is because Tesla [00:37:43] is trying to minimize it's like legal liability for accidents caused by its system. [00:37:47] If, if, if, if you ignore its beeps three times in a day, uh, you, you get a strike, the system [00:37:56] will disengage and you will be forced to manually drive your car like a plebeian for the rest [00:38:01] of the day. [00:38:01] At least that's how Jeremy explained it to me. [00:38:03] If you get five strikes, I want to say it is, um, you're just exited from your, you're ejected [00:38:12] from the full self-driving program. [00:38:14] And I am impressed not only that it's as aggressive as it is, like, you know, if you got to look [00:38:22] at the screen for something, you've got to adjust it. [00:38:23] You basically have seven or eight seconds to, you know, fix the mirrors or whatever it is [00:38:28] before you got to be looking at the road again. [00:38:29] I'm also like finding myself that when I'm driving his vehicle, I actually am significantly less [00:38:36] distracted than in my own Ford escape, which has car play. [00:38:39] And I typically don't touch the phone itself, but I, um, you know, I tune out a little bit [00:38:44] or, uh, you know, might look at something or might be tapping away at the, uh, you know, [00:38:49] the eye messages and, and, and, and whatnot seemingly longer in those cases than like what the Tesla [00:38:55] would let me get away with. [00:38:56] So I'm paying more attention to the road because the computer is telling me to, or forcing me [00:39:01] to, and I am also doing less of the driving. [00:39:05] So, you know, my foot's off the pedal, my foot, my hands are off the steering. [00:39:08] And when they say supervised, it's actually like the right word, like it is doing the [00:39:14] driving, but like the, it feels almost like a pilot co-pilot thing where I, your head's [00:39:22] on a swivel. [00:39:23] Like I can look to the left and I can look to the right and I have far greater situational [00:39:27] awareness as the car is driving. [00:39:28] Now, granted a lot of these like semi-autonomous and, and adaptive, you know, uh, uh, uh, assistance [00:39:35] in cars will for most people lull them into a false sense of security and result in further [00:39:44] driver inattentiveness and unsafety, right? [00:39:46] Like people will, you'll train them out of the vigilance that you need at all times when [00:39:52] you're the one driving a vehicle or being driven in a vehicle. [00:39:55] However, like the particular, and maybe it's just cause I'm kind of coming in and chapter [00:40:00] four of this particular saga of full self-driving and robo taxis will be here in six months as [00:40:05] Elon Musk. [00:40:06] And of course they're not there, but it seems like at least the way that I've experienced [00:40:13] full self-driving when I've used it, it seems to me like I feel a thousand times safer because [00:40:21] the combination of the car, mostly doing the right thing, mostly making the conservative [00:40:25] choice, absolute worst case. [00:40:27] It haunt, it blares at you and you need to take over, uh, combined with my own hypervigilance [00:40:35] of not, you know, I constitutionally do not trust computers and you know, Jeremy doesn't [00:40:41] either. [00:40:42] And so when we're driving these things, we're looking around all the time where we're, we're, [00:40:45] we're sort of, because we have a curiosity and how the technology works, like trying to think [00:40:49] about how is it thinking through this? [00:40:51] Like, like we have a lot of, for example, um, automated gated communities where like the, [00:40:56] the gates will open and closed when you're, when you're entering and exiting. [00:41:00] It's like, we, we look at the little like computer screens, like how does it, how does it, what [00:41:04] does it think is in front of it right now? [00:41:05] It sees that there's an obstruction. [00:41:07] Uh, and if it opens too slowly, is it thinking it's a permanent obstruction or is it going to [00:41:11] wait and then proceed after the thing opens automatically? [00:41:14] Like there's a lot of little moments like that, where it's actually kind of interesting [00:41:17] to see how, you know, how the car reacts and then it gets a software update and then how [00:41:22] the car reacts after that. [00:41:23] And then additionally, there's the typical ebb and flow of software updates generally where [00:41:28] there's regressions, right? [00:41:29] Like there was a version of this, uh, system that, that the ability, like it used to blow [00:41:35] past this one particular speed bump, uh, uh, near our neighborhood, uh, because it didn't [00:41:41] have sufficient paint on the road to indicate that it was a speed bump. [00:41:45] And then there was a software update and then it perfectly negotiated all four speed bumps [00:41:49] just right in a row every single time. [00:41:52] And then there was another update and now it blows past the third speed bump again. [00:41:56] And so, uh, I think that people who are technology enthusiasts who maybe follow this stuff and [00:42:05] understand how, what software is, how it works, that updates are not a pure linear, you know, [00:42:11] march of progress, I think the idea that there would be regressions in software releases or [00:42:18] even, uh, non-determinism in how the, how the computer car operates, that's totally natural [00:42:24] to me. [00:42:24] And I expect it now. [00:42:25] I, I grown at it and I think like, this is, this is probably a bad idea in aggregate and [00:42:31] at a population level. [00:42:33] I suspect that the average driver would be confused by that the same way that like the [00:42:38] average person is terrified of updating their phone or their computer because they associate [00:42:43] software updates with, uh, uh, you know, newness and unawareness and, and, and, and, and, and all [00:42:51] the things that they finally had working, no longer working. [00:42:54] And when they, but when you talk about the, the march of progress and technology, they sort [00:43:00] of have a, what it is, is whenever anything goes wrong with technology, if you're not, if [00:43:08] you're not primed to know that it's burning you is, it seems like people mostly blame themselves [00:43:13] instead of blaming the technology. [00:43:15] And if that's your, if that's the way you use your phone or your computer, uh, you [00:43:21] know, when, when the car makes a mistake, you might not realize it as a car making mistake [00:43:26] and you might not have the hypervigilance. [00:43:27] That's like, you know, a more adversarial, like, like, I feel like I'm constantly spot checking [00:43:31] it. [00:43:31] And I, and while I am surprisingly impressed with how well it's been negotiating everything [00:43:37] that we've thrown at it so far, it's made one or two mistakes and I've, I've, I've, [00:43:41] I've, I've dealt with it, but on net, like it's driving waste. [00:43:45] Way more safely than I am way. [00:43:47] And it's, it's taught me a few things. [00:43:49] It's like, Oh yeah. [00:43:49] Like whenever I do this at an intersection, like that's really dumb. [00:43:52] Like it's doing this way better. [00:43:53] Uh, I can't think of a specific example, but like, I'm pretty impressed. [00:43:58] And so I thought, well, I'll ask Jeremy to borrow the car because I've got this natural [00:44:03] experiment now, same time of day, uh, same location. [00:44:07] So I already know how to get there. [00:44:08] It's a, it's a little bit goofy, but like, because I was just there, I'm not going to feel [00:44:12] like I'm learning how to get, get there and also learning how to use this. [00:44:15] Auto driving system simultaneously. [00:44:17] And, uh, holy shit. [00:44:20] Like, yes, I had people jump out in front of the car. [00:44:23] It was even worse this time at the particular intersection before you get to the, to, to [00:44:27] I four and the car like saw them out of its blind spot while it was turning, right. [00:44:32] It saw them on the left camera and breaks perfectly. [00:44:37] Uh, and I, uh, my first reaction was like, I would not have caught that. [00:44:40] I probably would have cut it real close. [00:44:44] Uh, almost hitting these people. [00:44:45] Uh, you get onto the highway and then this is why I emphasize like I four is like the deadliest [00:44:51] highway in America because it's, it is, it is not like driving on the highway, wherever [00:44:59] the fuck you live like anywhere I was ever in Michigan or Ohio or anywhere else in the [00:45:04] U S or certainly anywhere I've driven in Japan. [00:45:06] Those are the only places I suppose I've driven or Canada. [00:45:09] Like, yes, sometimes it's a little stressful driving on the highway. [00:45:12] Like that's not what this is. [00:45:14] This is, you have to practice extreme defensive driving. [00:45:18] And if you actually want to get where you're going, you also have to practice offensive [00:45:21] driving. [00:45:21] Uh, so having, uh, you know, nine cameras and nine directions is just necessary for basic [00:45:28] like assurance of survival. [00:45:31] Like when I'm on I four, I, I feel constantly under threat. [00:45:35] Uh, and something happens every time. [00:45:39] So we get on the highway and that stuff does happen. [00:45:42] Uh, you know, the car on its own decided to take the express lanes by itself, which was [00:45:46] incredible, but like people were like, I was trying to merge into a lane. [00:45:50] And then as, as the things, well, it was trying to merge into a lane. [00:45:53] And as it was changing lanes, somebody who didn't even have a blinker on starts edging in [00:45:58] and the car knows I'm going to back off. [00:45:59] Uh, there was another case of somebody swerving into our lane, like very close to the car and [00:46:05] the car, you know, defensively, you know, switch to the right lane, which was wide open [00:46:11] to prevent the risk that like, you know, it might have to break. [00:46:14] Suddenly there wasn't enough distance between the cars. [00:46:16] And that was stuff that like, I only was actually even able to piece together. [00:46:19] What the fuck was it doing after the fact? [00:46:20] Like looking at the map and looking around me, it's just, it went great. [00:46:28] Got there, dropped the shit off, turned around, you know, the parking is wonderful too, because [00:46:34] it'll back into every parking spot. [00:46:36] You just tap the screen. [00:46:37] Like it'll see the parking spots. [00:46:38] You just tap which one you want and just, it handles it for you. [00:46:40] It parks way better than I park. [00:46:42] I don't know, man. [00:46:43] And on the ride home, not only, you know, everything around me felt like it was on fire and chaos, [00:46:50] but because I had a buddy who was doing the driving and I could just kind of be, you know, [00:46:54] patrolling and looking around, I actually got a, a low heart rate notification on my watch, [00:47:00] which I get, I get them frequently. [00:47:01] Cause I have a low resting heart rate, but like it would say, Hey, your, your heart rate's [00:47:05] been under 40 beats per minute for the last 10 minutes. [00:47:08] And, uh, which I, if that's not you, that's like, if that's not typical for you, that might [00:47:14] sound scary, but like, no, my, my resting heart rate when I'm actually like de-stressed and, [00:47:17] and just chill is like typically like 38. [00:47:20] So the fact that I could be on I4 with a heart rate under 40 feeling completely safe more than [00:47:27] anything, it's not about going fast or whatever. [00:47:29] It's like feeling like I've got a team of two that are dedicated to getting me home safely, [00:47:32] me and this computer. [00:47:34] Uh, it was a revelatory experience now that look, I realized it's a complicated situation [00:47:44] because Elon is a big old bucket of assholes and the politics of it are all fucked. [00:47:50] Uh, you know, the right time to buy a Tesla was, was when, uh, everyone agreed that, that [00:47:54] they were cool and EVs were good and the planet deserves saving. [00:47:57] Uh, but yeah, I got, I totally saw where, where my brother was coming from and all of his friends [00:48:03] who, who, who, who are similar technologists who, who have these things and who are, you [00:48:07] know, who got on board in the very recent hardware three or hardware four era of Tesla. [00:48:12] Um, particularly with like the, the, the entry level models that are higher volume and therefore [00:48:17] kind of more, uh, consistently produced, you know, the cyber truck, for example, more, most [00:48:26] expensive, but lowest volume and has the most problems. [00:48:29] The model Y at this point is pretty boring and dull, but like, you know, if, if you, if [00:48:34] you are like me and just kind of think of cars, the modern day car is just a tablet with wheels. [00:48:40] This is a, you know, and I, yes, I had, I had low expectations. [00:48:46] I had a high level of suspicion, but it went great. [00:48:48] And, uh, uh, I, I, I successfully dropped off my snoring thing. [00:48:55] I can't wait to get the results. [00:48:57] That'll tell me that, uh, you know, nothing happened. [00:48:59] Another bit of follow-up. [00:49:01] I think I'd mentioned that I, uh, I had used rocket money. [00:49:05] So, you know, it used to be called true bill and then quick and loans bought it. [00:49:08] And, uh, the, as quick and loan started branding itself as rocket and having this rocket suite [00:49:13] of products, rocket money became, it's, you know, a consumer entree into upselling it to [00:49:18] other products and rocket monies, you know, promises. [00:49:21] It's going to help you, uh, visualize all your subscriptions and even negotiate a tiny, tiny [00:49:27] sliver of those subscriptions. [00:49:28] And the one that I yielded to it was my spectrum account. [00:49:32] So my ISP had, had gradually been charging me more and more to the point where it was [00:49:36] like $145 after tax every month for the same internet program. [00:49:39] That was like a hundred dollars when I moved here. [00:49:41] And I was very skeptical when rocket money said, Hey, we just saved you $893 a year, uh, by, [00:49:48] by lowering your monthly bill to 70 bucks. [00:49:50] And they sent me a new modem as well. [00:49:53] And I was like, I don't need a new modem. [00:49:55] It's the, it's, it's the model number. [00:49:56] It looks almost identical. [00:49:57] And I, I was actually at UPS returning that modem. [00:50:01] And I just thought to myself, what if this modem is somehow better? [00:50:04] Cause I had not been super blown away by the performance of my current one. [00:50:09] And so I, I went to the trouble of unplugging the old one, plugging in the new one, setting [00:50:13] it up, calling to activate and it, my, my connection now is rock solid. [00:50:19] So, so just by doing this price hack thing, I now have a modem that works way better. [00:50:23] I was able to activate it myself without having some tech come over here. [00:50:25] So that's a, that's a win, but the statements were still showing up $140. [00:50:29] And I was really skeptical that like this would materialize, but sure enough, this week I got [00:50:35] a statement for $70. [00:50:36] Uh, and I guess that means I owe rocket money 35% of whatever it saved me. [00:50:42] And I don't know how that's, I don't know how that's paid or when that works. [00:50:45] I'll figure it out. [00:50:47] But if you're, if you're willing to, basically I would recommend rocket money to anyone who [00:50:52] is currently paying sticker price for whatever utilities, it's probably mostly ISPs and cell [00:51:00] phone bills. [00:51:01] If you're paying for like a normal plan that is still available and you're paying top dollar, [00:51:06] uh, call them, give it a try. [00:51:08] But if you're like, you know, like I am with T-Mobile grandfathered in on some 12 year old [00:51:13] plan that has been replaced five times. [00:51:15] And there's no like, like the most likely case then is it's going to put me on the latest plan [00:51:19] and sign me up for all of the new throttling and four ADP video and the shit that you don't [00:51:24] want, uh, in terms of limitations. [00:51:26] So check out rocket money. [00:51:30] I, I, I was extremely skeptical and now this is, this is a rocket money ad. [00:51:34] Uh, although it is unpaid. [00:51:36] If you want to be a sponsor of the program podcast at seerls.co, uh, another followup item. [00:51:47] I, let me tell you what it took to connect. [00:51:53] My Xbox controller to my, to my gaming PC. [00:51:58] So, uh, I have an Xbox series elite to whatever you call it. [00:52:04] A nice, the fancy Xbox controller that costs like $170. [00:52:07] And I like this controller. [00:52:09] It's got the little paddles in the back. [00:52:11] It's got, you know, a nicer grip, uh, interchangeable thumb sticks and D pad and stuff. [00:52:16] It's a very nice product, but it's, it's, you know, talk about low volume things that [00:52:21] aren't as reliable. [00:52:21] It has a lot of reliability issues and my right bumper button, like next to the right [00:52:27] shoulder, it had been like very, very, um, it would miss like 70% of the clicks. [00:52:36] And because the right bumper isn't the most important button in the world. [00:52:39] Like it just meant like, uh, I guess I'm just not the kind of guy to throw grenades or whatever [00:52:43] the right bumper is typically assigned to, I got a replacement relative, like a, a, a cheap [00:52:50] replacement through Microsoft support channel. [00:52:52] I think they charged me $70. [00:52:53] They didn't require me to ship back the old one. [00:52:55] Uh, the replacement came and I plugged it into the computer to start set up and pairing. [00:53:00] And the Xbox accessories app was like, this is too out of date to be able to configure your [00:53:06] controller, which was weird because windows update, which I checked frequently had said [00:53:10] that I was up to date, but there was a little message at the bottom saying, uh, windows is [00:53:16] up to date. [00:53:16] Important security updates have not been applied. [00:53:19] Make sure that your computer is turned on, which is weird because if I'm manually updating [00:53:22] and nothing's saying that it's like, where are these secret security updates that aren't [00:53:26] happening? [00:53:26] And when I dug into my actual windows version, it said I was on 21 H two. [00:53:32] So the naming scheme for these major windows releases seems to be the, the two digit year [00:53:39] followed by H one for first half of the year and H two for second half of the year, which [00:53:44] is, um, real dumb. [00:53:47] I'm going to say just a dumb way to name things, you know, numbers are good. [00:53:52] You know, I, I, I get it now why it's named that. [00:53:56] But 21 was, uh, if you, if you decode the version several, several numbers ago, it was [00:54:02] three, at least it was at least two H one ago. [00:54:05] And why was I on such an old version? [00:54:10] It turns out I'll share like a, an article from, from just December, the, the windows 11 [00:54:16] required computers to have secure boot enabled using the trusted platform module or TPM equivalent [00:54:22] encryption. [00:54:23] And that's to certify or to be able to attest that like the, the operating system has not [00:54:28] been tampered with and so forth. [00:54:29] And then this has all sorts of like DMCA, DR, DRM, um, uh, and, uh, HDCP, all this sort [00:54:36] of a content encryption, copyright protection, uh, ostensibly it's quote unquote security. [00:54:41] And it, and it's the, like making sure from a malware perspective that the veracity of [00:54:45] the system files are all in place and so forth. [00:54:47] But like a lot of nerds were not on board because they want to rip blue waves or whatever it is. [00:54:51] And this might make it marginally more difficult, but gaming motherboards were like the last ones [00:54:57] to the party to support secure boot. [00:54:59] And even though I built my gaming PC, well, after windows 11 launched the BIOS that it [00:55:04] shipped with did not support secure boot. [00:55:06] Um, it didn't support, uh, I don't think like booting from UEFI drives correctly either. [00:55:13] So I'd set it up just like a normal basic fucking computer and it worked for however long it [00:55:18] worked. [00:55:18] But apparently in December, Microsoft was just like, and you get no more updates at all. [00:55:22] No more security updates, no more, nothing, which is why I started getting that message. [00:55:25] Uh, if you want to be on the latest and greatest version of windows 11, you must have secure boot. [00:55:30] Problem now is like, it's been several years. [00:55:34] And so figuring out what kind of motherboard I even have, I'm too lazy to like open the case [00:55:38] up and look at it. [00:55:39] And so I, I found the particular model number in my Amazon orders. [00:55:42] So step one, you know, I figured out what was happening. [00:55:45] I guess step, step zero is I get this new controller and I immediately regret it. [00:55:49] Uh, step two, figure out what's happening. [00:55:52] Step three, check my Amazon orders, identify the motherboard. [00:55:55] Uh, step four, I went to the motherboard website. [00:55:58] I find that there, a BIOS update is available and it's, it adds the secure boot functionality [00:56:03] because apparently the encryption software hardware is on the device, which is great. [00:56:07] So I download the BIOS and then I start flashing it. [00:56:12] Uh, not, you know, not that kind of, get your head out of the gutter. [00:56:15] I, it, it requires, uh, you know, identifying there's a, there's a particular USB port on [00:56:23] the back of the, of the motherboard. [00:56:25] That is the only one that can flash the BIOS and you have to look for it. [00:56:30] This is like M dash flash on it. [00:56:31] So you put it in there, you know, you restart, you, uh, boot into the BIOS and I, uh, got [00:56:39] it to update that, that part was actually pretty easy. [00:56:41] Then you go into the, the BIOS and it, you know, I don't know what BIOS stands for. [00:56:45] So if you're not like a PC person, this might not make sense, but you, you, the, the, it's, [00:56:49] it's the little bit of software that runs before the computer really starts. [00:56:52] And you can typically get there by hitting a key like F12 or delete. [00:56:55] And it's, you know, if you weren't raised on windows, uh, it's, it's, it's a weird [00:56:59] under, underbelly that sometimes you have to go into. [00:57:02] It's got a lot of arcane settings. [00:57:04] None of them make any sense. [00:57:05] It's a lot of acronyms that aren't explained, even though modern BIOS systems typically have [00:57:09] tooltips, it'll be like, what is, you know, what is MDR? [00:57:12] And it's like this, this option determines whether you have MDR turned on and off. [00:57:16] And there's like room for two more paragraphs to just maybe spell out what the fuck MDR is. [00:57:20] Uh, I turned on the secure boot, figure that out. [00:57:25] Uh, chat GPT is wonderful for stuff like this. [00:57:27] Like it gave me step-by-step directions because like, there's probably 800 forum, forum posts, [00:57:31] like detailing the same thing. [00:57:33] Uh, after reboot, nothing worked and like the computer would not boot. [00:57:39] I turned on secure boot, which required turning on UEFI, which is like a related technology of [00:57:44] like a more modern boot system for computers. [00:57:46] And it turns out it's because that my drive partition map is master boot record MBR, which [00:57:51] is like from the DOS era. [00:57:53] And that was the default when I set it up in 21 or 2020. [00:57:56]
The Rich Zeoli Show- Full Episode (01/16/2025): 3:05pm- On Wednesday night, President Joe Biden delivered a farewell address from the Oval Office where he warned Americans of a developing “oligarchy” within big tech—claiming that Meta and X are allowing for the dissemination of disinformation by not actively censoring speech. Biden cited President Dwight Eisenhower's famous warning about the dangers of the military-industrial complex and explained that big tech presented a similar, modern-day challenge to Americans. 3:15- While appearing on Joe Rogan's podcast, Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg defended his decision to end censorship on Facebook, citing previous editorial errors and a desire to restore free speech online. Zuckerberg revealed that the Biden Administration pressured his platforms to censor certain posts regarding COVID-19 vaccine side effects. While Rich is glad Zuckerberg and Meta are backing away from censorship, he refuses to believe the decision was made for anything other than political reasons. 3:20pm- Last week, the United States Supreme Court heard oral argument in TikTok, Inc. v. Garland—which will determine whether or not the federal government can ban an application owned by a foreign country designated as a foreign adversary. The potential ban could occur as soon as Sunday, January 19th. According to reports, Donald Trump—who will be sworn in on the 20th—is looking to save the app, potentially via an executive order or a partial sale of the company. Trump, according to The Washington Post, is also considering adopting “Project Texas” which would provide the U.S. government with a “kill switch” for TikTok should the app violate norms. 3:30pm- What president would you want to have a beer with? PLUS, have you ever heard audio of Lyndon Baines Johnson ordering a pair of slacks? 3:40pm- Speaking with The Washington Post, First Lady Jill Biden revealed that she was disappointed in Nancy Pelosi for her actions that led to Joe Biden being replaced as the Democrat Party's presidential nominee. She explained, “we were friends for 50-years.” 4:05pm- Jack Carr—#1 New York Times Best Selling Author of “The Terminal List”—joins The Rich Zeoli Show to discuss Secretary of Defense nominee Pete Hegseth's Senate confirmation hearing. PLUS, Carr talks about his soon-to-be-released book: “Cry Havok.” 4:30pm- Justin Goodman—Senior Vice President of Advocacy and Public Policy for the White Coat Waste Project—joins The Rich Zeoli Show to discuss a new article his organization co-authored with Congresswoman Nicole Malliotakis, “Here's how Trump 2.0 can cut $20 billion in spending, wipe out Fauci's leftover bloat—and save animals.” Is the government using taxpayer dollars to fund experiments involving monkeys doing drugs and gambling??? You can read the article here: https://nypost.com/2025/01/16/us-news/how-donald-trump-can-cut-20-billion-in-spending-wipe-out-anthony-faucis-leftover-bloat-and-save-animals/ 5:05pm- On Thursday, Interior Secretary nominee Doug Burgum testified before the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee where he described how the incoming Trump Administration will assure American energy dominance. Meanwhile, Lee Zeldin—nominated to serve as Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) administrator—told the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee that China is an adversary and isn't necessarily the best nation to partner with regarding “clean energy.” 5:15pm- During his confirmation hearing before the Senate Finance Committee, Treasury Secretary nominee Scott Bessent emphasized that the United States may be in an energy race with China—but it's completely false to suggest China prioritizes clean energy. During one notable exchange, Bessent used statistics to destroy Sen. Michael Bennet's claim that the 2017 Trump Administration tax cuts only benefited the wealthy. 5:30pm- While speaking with Politico, Sen. John Curtis (R-UT) said Director of National Intelligence nominee Tulsi Gabbard has ...
Join Rob on the Karma Stories podcast for a delightful dive into four riveting tales from the Malicious Compliance subreddit. Hear a hysterical personal Christmas story, an ingenious union rep's stand at a theme park, a father's amusing rebellion in a corporate course, and a surprising turn with a hardware store receipt. Plus, a clever take on appliance service plans after a house fire. Tune in for laughs, lessons, and a dose of sweet, sweet karma!Submit your own stories to KarmaStoriesPod@gmail.com.Karma Stories is available on all major Podcasting Platforms and on YouTube under the @KarmaStoriesPodcast handle. We cover stories from popular Reddit Subreddits like Entitled Parents, Tales From Tech Support, Pro Revenge and Malicious Compliance. You can find new uploads here every single day of the week!Rob's 3D Printing Site: https://Dangly3D.comPlease Note my 3D Prints Site is currently closed due to the Canada Post workers Strike. I am unable to fulfill any orders before Christmas at this time and apologize for any inconvenience.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/karma-stories--5098578/support.
You can't just call things really old! This week Johnny and Tyler discuss the disappearance of the Kaz II, as well as the Ghosts of Pluckley Village. Plus: Tyler's new alter ego, mushroom robots are on the prowl, and Drag Race hits new lows on IMDB.Join the Secret Society That Doesn't Suck for exclusive weekly mini episodes, livestreams, and a whole lot more! patreon.com/thatsspookyCheck out our new and improved apparel store with tons of new designs! thatsspooky.com/storeCheck out our website for show notes, photos, and more at thatsspooky.comFollow us on Instagram for photos from today's episode and all the memes @thatsspookypodWe're on Twitter! Follow us at @thatsspookypodDon't forget to send your spooky stories to thatsspookypod@gmail.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Episode 65: Kiran SagguSlacks, the eagerly anticipated debut Edinburgh hour from stand up comedian Kiran Saggu, is coming to Underbelly Bristo Square this August.All her life Kiran Saggu has battled immigrant and capitalist pressure to succeed from her Desi-British-American background. Now she wonders, must she get her ass up and work? Or can she achieve being loved, adored, rich and fulfilled from the safety of a log position in her London flatshare bed?In Slacks, Kiran asks big questions such as; ‘How can I live with the fact I didn't start a YouTube channel at 12 years old to make me a millionaire now?', ‘When will men I date stop telling me they could do stand-up comedy?', and ‘Can I sue the Daily Mail?'So You Think You're Funny semi-finalist Kiran Saggu says, “The truth is… I don't really hate hard work. As the child of immigrants, I just had a hard time convincing myself that a career in the Arts counted as work. My dad loved painting as a kid. He told his parents he wanted to be an artist. He became an engineer.“I think a lot of comics feel like they're lazy, and as an Asian-American, we're always in fear of not working hard enough. After 1st-generation immigration – what comes next? For me, it's making people laugh. Just by doing this show, just by being a creative in the West, I'm chartering a completely new territory for my family. But somebody's got to! Work can be anything – and we shouldn't be afraid of doing it. “I hope to inspire audiences to consider their own upbringings, their privilege, their ambitions, their place in and responsibility to society, then, to forget all that and just have a laugh about this world no matter which tiny bit of it we call home.”Producer Martin Willis, Founder of Objectively Funny, says, “Kiran is such a fun presence onstage that we are putty in her hands as she zips through stories and silliness. She sparkles with charisma whether talking about her sprawling background or the intricacies of the everyday. It's a real joy to introduce her to new audiences this Fringe."Kiran Saggu: Slacks plays throughout August at Edinburgh's Underbelly Bristo Square (Clover) and is produced by Objectively Funny. Advance tickets (prices from £9) are available to book here.#HYGYSTPOD #haveyougotyoursh*ttogether #HYGYST #caitlinoryan #KiransagguHave You Got Your Sh*t Together? with Caitlin O'Ryan, is a podcast that celebrates not having your sh*t together! In each episode, Caitlin interviews guests who seemingly “have their sh*t together” - be that in life/love/work/hobbies. Throughout the conversation, the questions unveil whether they actually do, or whether the whole concept is a lie! With a mix of guests from various backgrounds, the podcast is sure to be relatable, honest, and an antidote to Instagram culture. Producer - Ant Hickman (www.ahickman.uk)Artwork - Tim Saunders (www.instagram.com/timsaunders.design)Photography - Patch Bell (www.patchstudio.uk)Music - Cassia - 'Slow' (www.wearecassia.com)Web: www.hygystpod.comInsta: www.instgram.com/hygystpodEmail: hygystpod@gmail.comRSS: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/644a8e8eadac0f0010542d86 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Depending on your office’s dress code, you might’ve gotten a sarcastic compliment on your khaki business bottoms. Or maybe someone once gave you genuine praise on a sanguine series of work messages. If not, we’ve got a good reason for the phrase “sweet slacks” to enter your mind and exit your mouth. And that’s on […] The post Sweet Slacks: “Scratch Off” appeared first on KUT & KUTX Studios -- Podcasts.
In this episode, Eric shares with us how to effectively tailor marketing messaging, why it's important to push the boundaries of content design, and leveraging tools like ChatGPT for brainstorming ideas. Eric also talks about why fighting pieces of collateral to get to the point is often done in vain and his approach to creating better content. Key Takeaways:Balance products and personas: You need to adeptly balance different products, verticals, and personas to create a cohesive marketing strategy. Segmenting your audience based on their product install base allows you to tailor your messaging and approach more effectively, fostering stronger connections and driving better results.Be innovative with design: Emphasize innovative and boundary-pushing design in your content. Think of new ways to deliver your message and make your content stand out from the competition. Creativity in design can significantly enhance your brand's appeal and memorability.AI is a tool - use it: Use tools like Chat GPT for brainstorming ideas. AI can help you generate creative concepts and refine your strategies, making your campaigns more dynamic and innovative.Quote: “I think the design is so important, and as someone who, I run the marketing team here, I'm personally probably on a lot of sales lists and distributions. I get hit up constantly by SDRs who are sending me things. If it doesn't look good, I'm not going to open it. I don't really care what it is. Like I'm so busy drifting between emails and Slacks and meetings. And then, my personal life as well, that if it's not designed in a compelling, intuitive way, I'm not going to fight with a piece of collateral to get to the point. And so I think we have really tripled down on brand, visual identity, how the different pieces of our story come together…But when you're getting into thought leadership, I think the era of attaching a PDF or a static white paper, one pager, like those are so long gone. And I think in an industry that is a bit old school as well, I think standing out as a more dynamic marketing function where we're putting out pieces of collateral that not only does the user want to read the insight because the data we have is so unique to us, no one else is putting out content that looks like ours does.” Episode Timestamps: *(03:57) - Trust Tree: It's all about balance*(16:20) - The Playbook: The data is the hook*(41:56) - The Dust Up: Approaching product launches thoughtfully*(44:02) - Eric's Quick HitsSponsor:Pipeline Visionaries is brought to you by Qualified.com, the #1 Conversational Marketing platform for companies that use Salesforce and the secret weapon for pipeline pros. The world's leading enterprise brands trust Qualified to instantly meet with buyers, right on their website, and maximize sales pipeline. Visit Qualified.com to learn more. Links:Connect with Ian on LinkedInConnect with Eric on LinkedInLearn more about VTSLearn more about Caspian Studios
This week we're sharing an episode of a podcast we think you'll really like – The Boston Globe's Say More. We are living in a time of deep uncertainty, marked by global conflicts, economic anxiety, and societal divisions. No wonder we're so uneasy. Progress Network member, and host of the “On Being” podcast Krista Tippett sits down with host Shirley Leung to explain why these uncertain times require a larger spiritual quest for meaning and stillness in modern life. We inhabit a noisy, distracting world of Slacks and texts, and we need to learn how to get quiet. It's surprisingly hard, and Krista shares her own journey managing burnout and “befriending reality” in all its glorious messiness. Find more episodes of Say More at https://link.chtbl.com/saymore?sid=whatcouldgoright Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Matt Ray, the community manager for the CNCF sandbox project OpenCost, discusses their cloud and Kubernetes cost monitoring technology. He covers the capabilities of OpenCost in tracking cloud expenses and its new feature for monitoring carbon costs. Matt elaborates on the project's origin, its open source community, and the collaborative effort with other companies like Grafana and Microsoft. The conversation covers the community's growth, contribution processes, and OpenCost's goals for becoming more diverse and integrated with other technologies. Matt also reflects on the increasing interest in cost monitoring and his personal journey in the open source community. 00:00 Introduction to Matt Ray and OpenCost 01:09 OpenCost's Origins and CNCF Contribution 02:25 OpenCost vs. KubeCost: Defining the Boundaries 03:35 Adoption and Integration of OpenCost 04:30 Community Contributions and Project Growth 07:00 Flexibility and Use Cases of OpenCost 13:58 Becoming a Committer and Maintainer 14:47 Community Engagement and Participation 15:25 Future Plans and Focus 16:39 Carbon Cost and Plugin Architecture 17:53 Personal Journey in Open Source Guest: Matt Ray has been active in Open Source and DevOps communities for over two decades and has spoken at and helped organize many conferences and meetups. He is currently the Senior Community Manager at Kubecost for the CNCF Sandbox Project OpenCost. He has worked in and with enterprises and startups across a wide variety of industries including banking, retail, and government. He currently resides in Sydney, Australia after relocating from Austin, Texas. He co-hosts the Software Defined Talk podcast and is active on Mastodon, GitHub, and too many Slacks.
Editor's note: One of the top reasons we have hundreds of companies and thousands of AI Engineers joining the World's Fair next week is, apart from discussing technology and being present for the big launches planned, to hire and be hired! Listeners loved our previous Elicit episode and were so glad to welcome 2 more members of Elicit back for a guest post (and bonus podcast) on how they think through hiring. Don't miss their AI engineer job description, and template which you can use to create your own hiring plan! How to Hire AI EngineersJames Brady, Head of Engineering @ Elicit (ex Spring, Square, Trigger.io, IBM)Adam Wiggins, Internal Journalist @ Elicit (Cofounder Ink & Switch and Heroku)If you're leading a team that uses AI in your product in some way, you probably need to hire AI engineers. As defined in this article, that's someone with conventional engineering skills in addition to knowledge of language models and prompt engineering, without being a full-fledged Machine Learning expert.But how do you hire someone with this skillset? At Elicit we've been applying machine learning to reasoning tools since 2018, and our technical team is a mix of ML experts and what we can now call AI engineers. This article will cover our process from job description through interviewing. (You can also flip the perspectives here and use it just as easily for how to get hired as an AI engineer!)My own journeyBefore getting into the brass tacks, I want to share my journey to becoming an AI engineer.Up until a few years ago, I was happily working my job as an engineering manager of a big team at a late-stage startup. Like many, I was tracking the rapid increase in AI capabilities stemming from the deep learning revolution, but it was the release of GPT-3 in 2020 which was the watershed moment. At the time, we were all blown away by how the model could string together coherent sentences on demand. (Oh how far we've come since then!)I'd been a professional software engineer for nearly 15 years—enough to have experienced one or two technology cycles—but I could see this was something categorically new. I found this simultaneously exciting and somewhat disconcerting. I knew I wanted to dive into this world, but it seemed like the only path was going back to school for a master's degree in Machine Learning. I started talking with my boss about options for taking a sabbatical or doing a part-time distance learning degree.In 2021, I instead decided to launch a startup focused on productizing new research ideas on ML interpretability. It was through that process that I reached out to Andreas—a leading ML researcher and founder of Elicit—to see if he would be an advisor. Over the next few months, I learned more about Elicit: that they were trying to apply these fascinating technologies to the real-world problems of science, and with a business model that aligned it with safety goals. I realized that I was way more excited about Elicit than I was about my own startup ideas, and wrote about my motivations at the time.Three years later, it's clear this was a seismic shift in my career on the scale of when I chose to leave my comfy engineering job at IBM to go through the Y Combinator program back in 2008. Working with this new breed of technology has been more intellectually stimulating, challenging, and rewarding than I could have imagined.Deep ML expertise not requiredIt's important to note that AI engineers are not ML experts, nor is that their best contribution to a tech team.In our article Living documents as an AI UX pattern, we wrote:It's easy to think that AI advancements are all about training and applying new models, and certainly this is a huge part of our work in the ML team at Elicit. But those of us working in the UX part of the team believe that we have a big contribution to make in how AI is applied to end-user problems.We think of LLMs as a new medium to work with, one that we've barely begun to grasp the contours of. New computing mediums like GUIs in the 1980s, web/cloud in the 90s and 2000s, and multitouch smartphones in the 2000s/2010s opened a whole new era of engineering and design practices. So too will LLMs open new frontiers for our work in the coming decade.To compare to the early era of mobile development: great iOS developers didn't require a detailed understanding of the physics of capacitive touchscreens. But they did need to know the capabilities and limitations of a multi-touch screen, the constrained CPU and storage available, the context in which the user is using it (very different from a webpage or desktop computer), etc.In the same way, an AI engineer needs to work with LLMs as a medium that is fundamentally different from other compute mediums. That means an interest in the ML side of things, whether through their own self-study, tinkering with prompts and model fine-tuning, or following along in #llm-paper-club. But this understanding is so that they can work with the medium effectively versus, say, spending their days training new models.Language models as a chaotic mediumSo if we're not expecting deep ML expertise from AI engineers, what are we expecting? This brings us to what makes LLMs different.We'll assume already that our ideal candidate is already inspired by, and full of ideas about, all the new capabilities AI can bring to software products. But the flip side is all the things that make this new medium difficult to work with. LLM calls are annoying due to high latency (measured in tens of seconds sometimes, rather than milliseconds), extreme variance on latency, high error rates even under normal operation. Not to mention getting extremely different answers to the same prompt provided to the same model on two subsequent calls!The net effect is that an AI engineer, even working at the application development level, needs to have a skillset comparable to distributed systems engineering. Handling errors, retries, asynchronous calls, streaming responses, parallelizing and recombining model calls, the halting problem, and fallbacks are just some of the day-in-the-life of an AI engineer. Chaos engineering gets new life in the era of AI.Skills and qualities in candidatesLet's put together what we don't need (deep ML expertise) with what we do (work with capabilities and limitations of the medium). Thus we start to see what Elicit looks for in AI engineers:* Conventional software engineering skills. Especially back-end engineering on complex, data-intensive applications.* Professional, real-world experience with applications at scale.* Deep, hands-on experience across a few back-end web frameworks.* Light devops and an understanding of infrastructure best practices.* Queues, message buses, event-driven and serverless architectures, … there's no single “correct” approach, but having a deep toolbox to draw from is very important.* A genuine curiosity and enthusiasm for the capabilities of language models.* One or more serious projects (side projects are fine) of using them in interesting ways on a unique domain.* …ideally with some level of factored cognition, e.g. breaking the problem down into chunks, making thoughtful decisions about which things to push to the language model and which stay within the realm of conventional heuristics and compute capabilities.* Personal studying with resources like Elicit's ML reading list. Part of the role is collaborating with the ML engineers and researchers on our team. To do so, the candidate needs to “speak their language” somewhat, just as a mobile engineer needs some familiarity with backends in order to collaborate effectively on API creation with backend engineers.* An understanding of the challenges that come along with working with large models (high latency, variance, etc.) leading to a defensive, fault-first mindset.* Careful and principled handling of error cases, asynchronous code (and ability to reason about and debug it), streaming data, caching, logging and analytics for understanding behavior in production.* This is a similar mindset that one can develop working on conventional apps which are complex, data-intensive, or large-scale apps. The difference is that an AI engineer will need this mindset even when working on relatively small scales!On net, a great AI engineer will combine two seemingly contrasting perspectives: knowledge of, and a sense of wonder for, the capabilities of modern ML models; but also the understanding that this is a difficult and imperfect foundation, and the willingness to build resilient and performant systems on top of it.Here's the resulting AI engineer job description for Elicit. And here's a template that you can borrow from for writing your own JD.Hiring processOnce you know what you're looking for in an AI engineer, the process is not too different from other technical roles. Here's how we do it, broken down into two stages: sourcing and interviewing.SourcingWe're primarily looking for people with (1) a familiarity with and interest in ML, and (2) proven experience building complex systems using web technologies. The former is important for culture fit and as an indication that the candidate will be able to do some light prompt engineering as part of their role. The latter is important because language model APIs are built on top of web standards and—as noted above—aren't always the easiest tools to work with.Only a handful of people have built complex ML-first apps, but fortunately the two qualities listed above are relatively independent. Perhaps they've proven (2) through their professional experience and have some side projects which demonstrate (1).Talking of side projects, evidence of creative and original prototypes is a huge plus as we're evaluating candidates. We've barely scratched the surface of what's possible to build with LLMs—even the current generation of models—so candidates who have been willing to dive into crazy “I wonder if it's possible to…” ideas have a huge advantage.InterviewingThe hard skills we spend most of our time evaluating during our interview process are in the “building complex systems using web technologies” side of things. We will be checking that the candidate is familiar with asynchronous programming, defensive coding, distributed systems concepts and tools, and display an ability to think about scaling and performance. They needn't have 10+ years of experience doing this stuff: even junior candidates can display an aptitude and thirst for learning which gives us confidence they'll be successful tackling the difficult technical challenges we'll put in front of them.One anti-pattern—something which makes my heart sink when I hear it from candidates—is that they have no familiarity with ML, but claim that they're excited to learn about it. The amount of free and easily-accessible resources available is incredible, so a motivated candidate should have already dived into self-study.Putting all that together, here's the interview process that we follow for AI engineer candidates:* 30-minute introductory conversation. Non-technical, explaining the interview process, answering questions, understanding the candidate's career path and goals.* 60-minute technical interview. This is a coding exercise, where we play product manager and the candidate is making changes to a little web app. Here are some examples of topics we might hit upon through that exercise:* Update API endpoints to include extra metadata. Think about appropriate data types. Stub out frontend code to accept the new data.* Convert a synchronous REST API to an asynchronous streaming endpoint.* Cancellation of asynchronous work when a user closes their tab.* Choose an appropriate data structure to represent the pending, active, and completed ML work which is required to service a user request.* 60–90 minute non-technical interview. Walk through the candidate's professional experience, identifying high and low points, getting a grasp of what kinds of challenges and environments they thrive in.* On-site interviews. Half a day in our office in Oakland, meeting as much of the team as possible: more technical and non-technical conversations.The frontier is wide openAlthough Elicit is perhaps further along than other companies on AI engineering, we also acknowledge that this is a brand-new field whose shape and qualities are only just now starting to form. We're looking forward to hearing how other companies do this and being part of the conversation as the role evolves.We're excited for the AI Engineer World's Fair as another next step for this emerging subfield. And of course, check out the Elicit careers page if you're interested in joining our team.Podcast versionTimestamps* [00:00:24] Intros* [00:05:25] Defining the Hiring Process* [00:08:42] Defensive AI Engineering as a chaotic medium* [00:10:26] Tech Choices for Defensive AI Engineering* [00:14:04] How do you Interview for Defensive AI Engineering* [00:19:25] Does Model Shadowing Work?* [00:22:29] Is it too early to standardize Tech stacks?* [00:32:02] Capabilities: Offensive AI Engineering* [00:37:24] AI Engineering Required Knowledge* [00:40:13] ML First Mindset* [00:45:13] AI Engineers and Creativity* [00:47:51] Inside of Me There Are Two Wolves* [00:49:58] Sourcing AI Engineers* [00:58:45] Parting ThoughtsTranscript[00:00:00] swyx: Okay, so welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is another remote episode that we're recording. This is the first one that we're doing around a guest post. And I'm very honored to have two of the authors of the post with me, James and Adam from Elicit. Welcome, James. Welcome, Adam.[00:00:22] James Brady: Thank you. Great to be here.[00:00:23] Hey there.[00:00:24] Intros[00:00:24] swyx: Okay, so I think I will do this kind of in order. I think James, you're, you're sort of the primary author. So James, you are head of engineering at Elicit. You also, We're VP Eng at Teespring and Spring as well. And you also , you have a long history in sort of engineering. How did you, , find your way into something like Elicit where, , it's, you, you are basically traditional sort of VP Eng, VP technology type person moving into a more of an AI role.[00:00:53] James Brady: Yeah, that's right. It definitely was something of a Sideways move if not a left turn. So the story there was I'd been doing, as you said, VP technology, CTO type stuff for around about 15 years or so, and Notice that there was this crazy explosion of capability and interesting stuff happening within AI and ML and language models, that kind of thing.[00:01:16] I guess this was in 2019 or so, and decided that I needed to get involved. , this is a kind of generational shift. And Spent maybe a year or so trying to get up to speed on the state of the art, reading papers, reading books, practicing things, that kind of stuff. Was going to found a startup actually in in the space of interpretability and transparency, and through that met Andreas, who has obviously been on the, on the podcast before asked him to be an advisor for my startup, and he countered with, maybe you'd like to come and run the engineering team at Elicit, which it turns out was a much better idea.[00:01:48] And yeah, I kind of quickly changed in that direction. So I think some of the stuff that we're going to be talking about today is how actually a lot of the work when you're building applications with AI and ML looks and smells and feels much more like conventional software engineering with a few key differences rather than really deep ML stuff.[00:02:07] And I think that's one of the reasons why I was able to transfer skills over from one place to the other.[00:02:12] swyx: Yeah, I[00:02:12] James Brady: definitely[00:02:12] swyx: agree with that. I, I do often say that I think AI engineering is about 90 percent software engineering with like the, the 10 percent of like really strong really differentiated AI engineering.[00:02:22] And that might, that obviously that number might change over time. I want to also welcome Adam onto my podcast because you welcomed me onto your podcast two years ago.[00:02:31] Adam Wiggins: Yeah, that was a wonderful episode.[00:02:32] swyx: That was, that was a fun episode. You famously founded Heroku. You just wrapped up a few years working on Muse.[00:02:38] And now you've described yourself as a journalist, internal journalist working on Elicit.[00:02:43] Adam Wiggins: Yeah, well I'm kind of a little bit in a wandering phase here and trying to take this time in between ventures to see what's out there in the world and some of my wandering took me to the Elicit team. And found that they were some of the folks who were doing the most interesting, really deep work in terms of taking the capabilities of language models and applying them to what I feel like are really important problems.[00:03:08] So in this case, science and literature search and, and, and that sort of thing. It fits into my general interest in tools and productivity software. I, I think of it as a tool for thought in many ways, but a tool for science, obviously, if we can accelerate that discovery of new medicines and things like that, that's, that's just so powerful.[00:03:24] But to me, it's a. It's kind of also an opportunity to learn at the feet of some real masters in this space, people who have been working on it since it was, before it was cool, if you want to put it that way. So for me, the last couple of months have been this crash course, and why I sometimes describe myself as an internal journalist is I'm helping to write some, some posts, including Supporting James in this article here we're doing for latent space where I'm just bringing my writing skill and that sort of thing to bear on their very deep domain expertise around language models and applying them to the real world and kind of surface that in a way that's I don't know, accessible, legible, that, that sort of thing.[00:04:03] And so, and the great benefit to me is I get to learn this stuff in a way that I don't think I would, or I haven't, just kind of tinkering with my own side projects.[00:04:12] swyx: I forgot to mention that you also run Ink and Switch, which is one of the leading research labs, in my mind, of the tools for thought productivity space, , whatever people mentioned there, or maybe future of programming even, a little bit of that.[00:04:24] As well. I think you guys definitely started the local first wave. I think there was just the first conference that you guys held. I don't know if you were personally involved.[00:04:31] Adam Wiggins: Yeah, I was one of the co organizers along with a few other folks for, yeah, called Local First Conf here in Berlin.[00:04:36] Huge success from my, my point of view. Local first, obviously, a whole other topic we can talk about on another day. I think there actually is a lot more what would you call it , handshake emoji between kind of language models and the local first data model. And that was part of the topic of the conference here, but yeah, topic for another day.[00:04:55] swyx: Not necessarily. I mean , I, I selected as one of my keynotes, Justine Tunney, working at LlamaFall in Mozilla, because I think there's a lot of people interested in that stuff. But we can, we can focus on the headline topic. And just to not bury the lead, which is we're talking about hire, how to hire AI engineers, this is something that I've been looking for a credible source on for months.[00:05:14] People keep asking me for my opinions. I don't feel qualified to give an opinion and it's not like I have. So that's kind of defined hiring process that I'm super happy with, even though I've worked with a number of AI engineers.[00:05:25] Defining the Hiring Process[00:05:25] swyx: I'll just leave it open to you, James. How was your process of defining your hiring, hiring roles?[00:05:31] James Brady: Yeah. So I think the first thing to say is that we've effectively been hiring for this kind of a role since before you, before you coined the term and tried to kind of build this understanding of what it was.[00:05:42] So, which is not a bad thing. Like it's, it was a, it was a good thing. A concept, a concept that was coming to the fore and effectively needed a name, which is which is what you did. So the reason I mentioned that is I think it was something that we kind of backed into, if you will. We didn't sit down and come up with a brand new role from, from scratch of this is a completely novel set of responsibilities and skills that this person would need.[00:06:06] However, it is a A kind of particular blend of different skills and attitudes and and curiosities interests, which I think makes sense to kind of bundle together. So in the, in the post, the three things that we say are most important for a highly effective AI engineer are first of all, conventional software engineering skills, which is Kind of a given, but definitely worth mentioning.[00:06:30] The second thing is a curiosity and enthusiasm for machine learning and maybe in particular language models. That's certainly true in our case. And then the third thing is to do with basically a fault first mindset, being able to build systems that can handle things going wrong in, in, in some sense.[00:06:49] And yeah, the I think the kind of middle point, the curiosity about ML and language models is probably fairly self evident. They're going to be working with, and prompting, and dealing with the responses from these models, so that's clearly relevant. The last point, though, maybe takes the most explaining.[00:07:07] To do with this fault first mindset and the ability to, to build resilient systems. The reason that is, is so important is because compared to normal APIs, where normal, think of something like a Stripe API or a search API or something like this. The latency when you're working with language models is, is wild, like you can get 10x variation.[00:07:32] I mean, I was looking at the stats before, actually, before, before the podcast. We do often, normally, in fact, see a 10x variation in the P90 latency over the course of, Half an hour, an hour when we're prompting these models, which is way higher than if you're working with a, more kind of conventional conventionally backed API.[00:07:49] And the responses that you get, the actual content and the responses are naturally unpredictable as well. They come back with different formats. Maybe you're expecting JSON. It's not quite JSON. You have to handle this stuff. And also the, the semantics of the messages are unpredictable too, which is, which is a good thing.[00:08:08] Like this is one of the things that you're looking for from these language models, but it all adds up to needing to. Build a resilient, reliable, solid feeling system on top of this fundamentally, well, certainly currently fundamentally shaky foundation. The models do not behave in the way that you would like them to.[00:08:28] And yeah, the ability to structure the code around them such that it does give the user this warm, reassuring, Snappy, solid feeling is is really what we're driving for there.[00:08:42] Defensive AI Engineering as a chaotic medium[00:08:42] Adam Wiggins: What really struck me as we, we dug in on the content for this article was that third point there. The, the language models is this kind of chaotic medium, this, this dragon, this wild horse you're, you're, you're riding and trying to guide in the direction that is going to be useful and reliable to users, because I think.[00:08:58] So much of software engineering is about making things not only high performance and snappy, but really just making it stable, reliable, predictable, which is literally the opposite of what you get from from the language models. And yet, yeah, the output is so useful, and indeed, some of their Creativity, if you want to call it that, which is, is precisely their value.[00:09:19] And so you need to work with this medium. And I guess the nuanced or the thing that came out of Elissa's experience that I thought was so interesting is quite a lot of working with that is things that come from distributed systems engineering. But you have really the AI engineers as we're defining them or, or labeling them on the illicit team is people who are really application developers.[00:09:39] You're building things for end users. You're thinking about, okay, I need to populate this interface with some response to user input. That's useful to the tasks they're trying to do, but you have this. This is the thing, this medium that you're working with that in some ways you need to apply some of this chaos engineering, distributed systems engineering, which typically those people with those engineering skills are not kind of the application level developers with the product mindset or whatever, they're more deep in the guts of a, of a system.[00:10:07] And so it's, those, those skills and, and knowledge do exist throughout the engineering discipline, but sort of putting them together into one person that is That feels like sort of a unique thing and working with the folks on the Elicit team who have that skills I'm quite struck by that unique that unique blend.[00:10:23] I haven't really seen that before in my 30 year career in technology.[00:10:26] Tech Choices for Defensive AI Engineering[00:10:26] swyx: Yeah, that's a Fascinating I like the reference to chaos engineering. I have some appreciation, I think when you had me on your podcast, I was still working at Temporal and that was like a nice Framework, if you live within Temporal's boundaries, you can pretend that all those faults don't exist, and you can, you can code in a sort of very fault tolerant way.[00:10:47] What is, what is you guys solutions around this, actually? Like, I think you're, you're emphasizing having the mindset, but maybe naming some technologies would help? Not saying that you have to adopt these technologies, but they're just, they're just quick vectors into what you're talking about when you're, when you're talking about distributed systems.[00:11:03] Like, that's such a big, chunky word, , like are we talking, are Kubernetes or, and I suspect we're not, , like we're, we're talking something else now.[00:11:10] James Brady: Yeah, that's right. It's more at the application level rather than at the infrastructure level, at least, at least the way that it works for us.[00:11:17] So there's nothing kind of radically novel here. It is more a careful application of existing concepts. So the kinds of tools that we reach for to handle these kind of slightly chaotic objects that Adam was just talking about, are retries and fallbacks and timeouts and careful error handling. And, yeah, the standard stuff, really.[00:11:39] There's also a great degree of dependence. We rely heavily on parallelization because, , these language models are not innately very snappy, and , there's just a lot of I. O. going back and forth. So All these things I'm talking about when I was in my earlier stages of a career, these are kind of the things that are the difficult parts that most senior software engineers will be better at.[00:12:01] It is careful error handling, and concurrency, and fallbacks, and distributed systems, and, , eventual consistency, and all this kind of stuff and As Adam was saying, the kind of person that is deep in the guts of some kind of distributed systems, a really high, high scale backend kind of a problem would probably naturally have these kinds of skills.[00:12:21] But you'll find them on, on day one, if you're building a, , an ML powered app, even if it's not got massive scale. I think one one thing that I would mention that we do do yeah, maybe, maybe two related things, actually. The first is we're big fans of strong typing. We share the types all the way from the Backend Python code all the way to the to the front end in TypeScript and find that is I mean We'd probably do this anyway But it really helps one reason around the shapes of the data which can going to be going back and forth and that's really important When you can't rely upon You you're going to have to coerce the data that you get back from the ML if you want if you want for it to be structured basically speaking and The second thing which is related is we use checked exceptions inside our Python code base, which means that we can use the type system to make sure we are handling, properly handling, all of the, the various things that could be going wrong, all the different exceptions that could be getting raised.[00:13:16] So, checked exceptions are not, not really particularly popular. Actually there's not many people that are big fans of them. For our particular use case, to really make sure that we've not just forgotten to handle, , This particular type of error we have found them useful to to, to force us to think about all the different edge cases that can come up.[00:13:32] swyx: Fascinating. How just a quick note of technology. How do you share types from Python to TypeScript? Do you, do you use GraphQL? Do you use something[00:13:39] James Brady: else? We don't, we don't use GraphQL. Yeah. So we've got the We've got the types defined in Python, that's the source of truth. And we go from the OpenAPI spec, and there's a, there's a tool that you work and use to generate types dynamically, like TypeScript types from those OpenAPI definitions.[00:13:57] swyx: Okay, excellent. Okay, cool. Sorry, sorry for diving into that rabbit hole a little bit. I always like to spell out technologies for people to dig their teeth into.[00:14:04] How do you Interview for Defensive AI Engineering[00:14:04] swyx: One thing I'll, one thing I'll mention quickly is that a lot of the stuff that you mentioned is typically not part of the normal interview loop.[00:14:10] It's actually really hard to interview for because this is the stuff that you polish out in, as you go into production, the coding interviews are typically about the happy path. How do we do that? How do we, how do we design, how do you look for a defensive fault first mindset?[00:14:24] Because you can defensive code all day long and not add functionality. to your to your application.[00:14:29] James Brady: Yeah, it's a great question and I think that's exactly true. Normally the interview is about the happy path and then there's maybe a box checking exercise at the end of the candidate says of course in reality I would handle the edge cases or something like this and that unfortunately isn't isn't quite good enough when when the happy path is is very very narrow and yeah there's lots of weirdness on either side so basically speaking, it's just a case of, of foregrounding those kind of concerns through the interview process.[00:14:58] It's, there's, there's no magic to it. We, we talk about this in the, in the po in the post that we're gonna be putting up on, on Laton space. The, there's two main technical exercises that we do through our interview process for this role. The first is more coding focus, and the second is more system designy.[00:15:16] Yeah. White whiteboarding a potential solution. And in, without giving too much away in the coding exercise. You do need to think about edge cases. You do need to think about errors. The exercise consists of adding features and fixing bugs inside the code base. And in both of those two cases, it does demand, because of the way that we set the application up and the interview up, it does demand that you think about something other than the happy path.[00:15:41] But your thinking is the right prompt of how do we get the candidate thinking outside of the, the kind of normal Sweet spot, smooth smooth, smoothly paved path. In terms of the system design interview, that's a little easier to prompt this kind of fault first mindset because it's very easy in that situation just to say, let's imagine that, , this node dies, how does the app still work?[00:16:03] Let's imagine that this network is, is going super slow. Let's imagine that, I don't know, like you, you run out of, you run out of capacity in, in, in this database that you've sketched out here, how do you handle that, that, that sort of stuff. So. It's, in both cases, they're not firmly anchored to and built specifically around language models and ways language models can go wrong, but we do exercise the same muscles of thinking defensively and yeah, foregrounding the edge cases, basically.[00:16:32] Adam Wiggins: James, earlier there you mentioned retries. And this is something that I think I've seen some interesting debates internally about things regarding, first of all, retries are, can be costly, right? In general, this medium, in addition to having this incredibly high variance and response rate, and, , being non deterministic, is actually quite expensive.[00:16:50] And so, in many cases, doing a retry when you get a fail does make sense, but actually that has an impact on cost. And so there is Some sense to which, at least I've seen the AI engineers on our team, worry about that. They worry about, okay, how do we give the best user experience, but balance that against what the infrastructure is going to, , is going to cost our company, which I think is again, an interesting mix of, yeah, again, it's a little bit the distributed system mindset, but it's also a product perspective and you're thinking about the end user experience, but also the.[00:17:22] The bottom line for the business, you're bringing together a lot of a lot of qualities there. And there's also the fallback case, which is kind of, kind of a related or adjacent one. I think there was also a discussion on that internally where, I think it maybe was search, there was something recently where there was one of the frontline search providers was having some, yeah, slowness and outages, and essentially then we had a fallback, but essentially that gave people for a while, especially new users that come in that don't the difference, they're getting a They're getting worse results for their search.[00:17:52] And so then you have this debate about, okay, there's sort of what is correct to do from an engineering perspective, but then there's also what actually is the best result for the user. Is giving them a kind of a worse answer to their search result better, or is it better to kind of give them an error and be like, yeah, sorry, it's not working right at the moment, try again.[00:18:12] Later, both are obviously non optimal, but but this is the kind of thing I think that that you run into or, or the kind of thing we need to grapple with a lot more than you would other kinds of, of mediums.[00:18:24] James Brady: Yeah, that's a really good example. I think it brings to the fore the two different things that you could be optimizing for of uptime and response at all costs on one end of the spectrum and then effectively fragility, but kind of, if you get a response, it's the best response we can come up with at the other end of the spectrum.[00:18:43] And where you want to land there kind of depends on, well, it certainly depends on the app, obviously depends on the user. I think it depends on the, feature within the app as well. So in the search case that you, that you mentioned there, in retrospect, we probably didn't want to have the fallback. And we've actually just recently on Monday, changed that to Show an error message rather than giving people a kind of degraded experience in other situations We could use for example a large language model from a large language model from provider B rather than provider A and Get something which is within the A few percentage points performance, and that's just a really different situation.[00:19:21] So yeah, like any interesting question, the answer is, it depends.[00:19:25] Does Model Shadowing Work?[00:19:25] swyx: I do hear a lot of people suggesting I, let's call this model shadowing as a defensive technique, which is, if OpenAI happens to be down, which, , happens more often than people think then you fall back to anthropic or something.[00:19:38] How realistic is that, right? Like you, don't you have to develop completely different prompts for different models and won't the, won't the performance of your application suffer from whatever reason, right? Like it may be caused differently or it's not maintained in the same way. I, I think that people raise this idea of fallbacks to models, but I don't think it's, I don't, I don't see it practiced very much.[00:20:02] James Brady: Yeah, it is, you, you definitely need to have a different prompt if you want to stay within a few percentage points degradation Like I, like I said before, and that certainly comes at a cost, like fallbacks and backups and things like this It's really easy for them to go stale and kind of flake out on you because they're off the beaten track And In our particular case inside of Elicit, we do have fallbacks for a number of kind of crucial functions where it's going to be very obvious if something has gone wrong, but we don't have fallbacks in all cases.[00:20:40] It really depends on a task to task basis throughout the app. So I can't give you a kind of a, a single kind of simple rule of thumb for, in this case, do this. And in the other, do that. But yeah, we've it's a little bit easier now that the APIs between the anthropic models and opening are more similar than they used to be.[00:20:59] So we don't have two totally separate code paths with different protocols, like wire protocols to, to speak, which makes things easier, but you're right. You do need to have different prompts if you want to, have similar performance across the providers.[00:21:12] Adam Wiggins: I'll also note, just observing again as a relative newcomer here, I was surprised, impressed, not sure what the word is for it, at the blend of different backends that the team is using.[00:21:24] And so there's many The product presents as kind of one single interface, but there's actually several dozen kind of main paths. There's like, for example, the search versus a data extraction of a certain type, versus chat with papers, versus And each one of these, , the team has worked very hard to pick the right Model for the job and craft the prompt there, but also is constantly testing new ones.[00:21:48] So a new one comes out from either, from the big providers or in some cases, Our own models that are , running on, on essentially our own infrastructure. And sometimes that's more about cost or performance, but the point is kind of switching very fluidly between them and, and very quickly because this field is moving so fast and there's new ones to choose from all the time is like part of the day to day, I would say.[00:22:11] So it isn't more of a like, there's a main one, it's been kind of the same for a year, there's a fallback, but it's got cobwebs on it. It's more like which model and which prompt is changing weekly. And so I think it's quite, quite reasonable to to, to, to have a fallback that you can expect might work.[00:22:29] Is it too early to standardize Tech stacks?[00:22:29] swyx: I'm curious because you guys have had experience working at both, , Elicit, which is a smaller operation and, and larger companies. A lot of companies are looking at this with a certain amount of trepidation as, as, , it's very chaotic. When you have, when you have , one engineering team that, that, knows everyone else's names and like, , they, they, they, they meet constantly in Slack and knows what's going on.[00:22:50] It's easier to, to sync on technology choices. When you have a hundred teams, all shipping AI products and all making their own independent tech choices. It can be, it can be very hard to control. One solution I'm hearing from like the sales forces of the worlds and Walmarts of the world is that they are creating their own AI gateway, right?[00:23:05] Internal AI gateway. This is the one model hub that controls all the things and has our standards. Is that a feasible thing? Is that something that you would want? Is that something you have and you're working towards? What are your thoughts on this stuff? Like, Centralization of control or like an AI platform internally.[00:23:22] James Brady: Certainly for larger organizations and organizations that are doing things which maybe are running into HIPAA compliance or other, um, legislative tools like that. It could make a lot of sense. Yeah. I think for the TLDR for something like Elicit is we are small enough, as you indicated, and need to have full control over all the levers available and switch between different models and different prompts and whatnot, as Adam was just saying, that that kind of thing wouldn't work for us.[00:23:52] But yeah, I've spoken with and, um, advised a couple of companies that are trying to sell into that kind of a space or at a larger stage, and it does seem to make a lot of sense for them. So, for example, if you're trying to sell If you're looking to sell to a large enterprise and they cannot have any data leaving the EU, then you need to be really careful about someone just accidentally putting in, , the sort of US East 1 GPT 4 endpoints or something like this.[00:24:22] I'd be interested in understanding better what the specific problem is that they're looking to solve with that, whether it is to do with data security or centralization of billing, or if they have a kind of Suite of prompts or something like this that people can choose from so they don't need to reinvent the wheel again and again I wouldn't be able to say without understanding the problems and their proposed solutions , which kind of situations that be better or worse fit for but yeah for illicit where really the The secret sauce, if there is a secret sauce, is which models we're using, how we're using them, how we're combining them, how we're thinking about the user problem, how we're thinking about all these pieces coming together.[00:25:02] You really need to have all of the affordances available to you to be able to experiment with things and iterate rapidly. And generally speaking, whenever you put these kind of layers of abstraction and control and generalization in there, that, that gets in the way. So, so for us, it would not work.[00:25:19] Adam Wiggins: Do you feel like there's always a tendency to want to reach for standardization and abstractions pretty early in a new technology cycle?[00:25:26] There's something comforting there, or you feel like you can see them, or whatever. I feel like there's some of that discussion around lang chain right now. But yeah, this is not only so early, but also moving so fast. , I think it's . I think it's tough to, to ask for that. That's, that's not the, that's not the space we're in, but the, yeah, the larger an organization, the more that's your, your default is to, to, to want to reach for that.[00:25:48] It, it, it's a sort of comfort.[00:25:51] swyx: Yeah, I find it interesting that you would say that , being a founder of Heroku where , you were one of the first platforms as a service that more or less standardized what, , that sort of early developer experience should have looked like.[00:26:04] And I think basically people are feeling the differences between calling various model lab APIs and having an actual AI platform where. , all, all their development needs are thought of for them. , it's, it's very much, and, and I, I defined this in my AI engineer post as well.[00:26:19] Like the model labs just see their job ending at serving models and that's about it. But actually the responsibility of the AI engineer has to fill in a lot of the gaps beyond that. So.[00:26:31] Adam Wiggins: Yeah, that's true. I think, , a huge part of the exercise with Heroku, which It was largely inspired by Rails, which itself was one of the first frameworks to standardize the SQL database.[00:26:42] And people had been building apps like that for many, many years. I had built many apps. I had made my own templates based on that. I think others had done it. And Rails came along at the right moment. We had been doing it long enough that you see the patterns and then you can say look let's let's extract those into a framework that's going to make it not only easier to build for the experts but for people who are relatively new the best practices are encoded into you.[00:27:07] That framework, , Model View Controller, to take one example. But then, yeah, once you see that, and once you experience the power of a framework, and again, it's so comforting, and you can develop faster, and it's easier to onboard new people to it because you have these standards. And this consistency, then folks want that for something new that's evolving.[00:27:29] Now here I'm thinking maybe if you fast forward a little to, for example, when React came on the on the scene, , a decade ago or whatever. And then, okay, we need to do state management. What's that? And then there's, , there's a new library every six months. Okay, this is the one, this is the gold standard.[00:27:42] And then, , six months later, that's deprecated. Because of course, it's evolving, you need to figure it out, like the tacit knowledge and the experience of putting it in practice and seeing what those real What those real needs are are, are critical, and so it's, it is really about finding the right time to say yes, we can generalize, we can make standards and abstractions, whether it's for a company, whether it's for, , a library, an open source library, for a whole class of apps and it, it's very much a, much more of a A judgment call slash just a sense of taste or , experience to be able to say, Yeah, we're at the right point.[00:28:16] We can standardize this. But it's at least my, my very, again, and I'm so new to that, this world compared to you both, but my, my sense is, yeah, still the wild west. That's what makes it so exciting and feels kind of too early for too much. too much in the way of standardized abstractions. Not that it's not interesting to try, but , you can't necessarily get there in the same way Rails did until you've got that decade of experience of whatever building different classes of apps in that, with that technology.[00:28:45] James Brady: Yeah, it's, it's interesting to think about what is going to stay more static and what is expected to change over the coming five years, let's say. Which seems like when I think about it through an ML lens, it's an incredibly long time. And if you just said five years, it doesn't seem, doesn't seem that long.[00:29:01] I think that, that kind of talks to part of the problem here is that things that are moving are moving incredibly quickly. I would expect, this is my, my hot take rather than some kind of official carefully thought out position, but my hot take would be something like the You can, you'll be able to get to good quality apps without doing really careful prompt engineering.[00:29:21] I don't think that prompt engineering is going to be a kind of durable differential skill that people will, will hold. I do think that, The way that you set up the ML problem to kind of ask the right questions, if you see what I mean, rather than the specific phrasing of exactly how you're doing chain of thought or few shot or something in the prompt I think the way that you set it up is, is probably going to be remain to be trickier for longer.[00:29:47] And I think some of the operational challenges that we've been talking about of wild variations in, in, in latency, And handling the, I mean, one way to think about these models is the first lesson that you learn when, when you're an engineer, software engineer, is that you need to sanitize user input, right?[00:30:05] It was, I think it was the top OWASP security threat for a while. Like you, you have to sanitize and validate user input. And we got used to that. And it kind of feels like this is the, The shell around the app and then everything else inside you're kind of in control of and you can grasp and you can debug, etc.[00:30:22] And what we've effectively done is, through some kind of weird rearguard action, we've now got these slightly chaotic things. I think of them more as complex adaptive systems, which , related but a bit different. Definitely have some of the same dynamics. We've, we've injected these into the foundations of the, of the app and you kind of now need to think with this defined defensive mindset downwards as well as upwards if you, if you see what I mean.[00:30:46] So I think it would gonna, it's, I think it will take a while for us to truly wrap our heads around that. And also these kinds of problems where you have to handle things being unreliable and slow sometimes and whatever else, even if it doesn't happen very often, there isn't some kind of industry wide accepted way of handling that at massive scale.[00:31:10] There are definitely patterns and anti patterns and tools and whatnot, but it's not like this is a solved problem. So I would expect that it's not going to go down easily as a, as a solvable problem at the ML scale either.[00:31:23] swyx: Yeah, excellent. I would describe in, in the terminology of the stuff that I've written in the past, I describe this inversion of architecture as sort of LLM at the core versus LLM or code at the core.[00:31:34] We're very used to code at the core. Actually, we can scale that very well. When we build LLM core apps, we have to realize that the, the central part of our app that's orchestrating things is actually prompt, prone to, , prompt injections and non determinism and all that, all that good stuff.[00:31:48] I, I did want to move the conversation a little bit from the sort of defensive side of things to the more offensive or, , the fun side of things, capabilities side of things, because that is the other part. of the job description that we kind of skimmed over. So I'll, I'll repeat what you said earlier.[00:32:02] Capabilities: Offensive AI Engineering[00:32:02] swyx: It's, you want people to have a genuine curiosity and enthusiasm for the capabilities of language models. We just, we're recording this the day after Anthropic just dropped Cloud 3. 5. And I was wondering, , maybe this is a good, good exercise is how do people have Curiosity and enthusiasm for capabilities language models when for example the research paper for cloud 3.[00:32:22] 5 is four pages[00:32:23] James Brady: Maybe that's not a bad thing actually in this particular case So yeah If you really want to know exactly how the sausage was made That hasn't been possible for a few years now in fact for for these new models but from our perspective as when we're building illicit What we primarily care about is what can these models do?[00:32:41] How do they perform on the tasks that we already have set up and the evaluations we have in mind? And then on a slightly more expansive note, what kinds of new capabilities do they seem to have? Can we elicit, no pun intended, from the models? For example, well, there's, there's very obvious ones like multimodality , there wasn't that and then there was that, or it could be something a bit more subtle, like it seems to be getting better at reasoning, or it seems to be getting better at metacognition, or Or it seems to be getting better at marking its own work and giving calibrated confidence estimates, things like this.[00:33:19] So yeah, there's, there's plenty to be excited about there. It's just that yeah, there's rightly or wrongly been this, this, this shift over the last few years to not give all the details. So no, but from application development perspective we, every time there's a new model release, there's a flow of activity in our Slack, and we try to figure out what's going on.[00:33:38] What it can do, what it can't do, run our evaluation frameworks, and yeah, it's always an exciting, happy day.[00:33:44] Adam Wiggins: Yeah, from my perspective, what I'm seeing from the folks on the team is, first of all, just awareness of the new stuff that's coming out, so that's, , an enthusiasm for the space and following along, and then being able to very quickly, partially that's having Slack to do this, but be able to quickly map that to, okay, What does this do for our specific case?[00:34:07] And that, the simple version of that is, let's run the evaluation framework, which Lissa has quite a comprehensive one. I'm actually working on an article on that right now, which I'm very excited about, because it's a very interesting world of things. But basically, you can just try, not just, but try the new model in the evaluations framework.[00:34:27] Run it. It has a whole slew of benchmarks, which includes not just Accuracy and confidence, but also things like performance, cost, and so on. And all of these things may trade off against each other. Maybe it's actually, it's very slightly worse, but it's way faster and way cheaper, so actually this might be a net win, for example.[00:34:46] Or, it's way more accurate. But that comes at its slower and higher cost, and so now you need to think about those trade offs. And so to me, coming back to the qualities of an AI engineer, especially when you're trying to hire for them, It's this, it's, it is very much an application developer in the sense of a product mindset of What are our users or our customers trying to do?[00:35:08] What problem do they need solved? Or what what does our product solve for them? And how does the capabilities of a particular model potentially solve that better for them than what exists today? And by the way, what exists today is becoming an increasingly gigantic cornucopia of things, right? And so, You say, okay, this new model has these capabilities, therefore, , the simple version of that is plug it into our existing evaluations and just look at that and see if it, it seems like it's better for a straight out swap out, but when you talk about, for example, you have multimodal capabilities, and then you say, okay, wait a minute, actually, maybe there's a new feature or a whole new There's a whole bunch of ways we could be using it, not just a simple model swap out, but actually a different thing we could do that we couldn't do before that would have been too slow, or too inaccurate, or something like that, that now we do have the capability to do.[00:35:58] I think of that as being a great thing. I don't even know if I want to call it a skill, maybe it's even like an attitude or a perspective, which is a desire to both be excited about the new technology, , the new models and things as they come along, but also holding in the mind, what does our product do?[00:36:16] Who is our user? And how can we connect the capabilities of this technology to how we're helping people in whatever it is our product does?[00:36:25] James Brady: Yeah, I'm just looking at one of our internal Slack channels where we talk about things like new new model releases and that kind of thing And it is notable looking through these the kind of things that people are excited about and not It's, I don't know the context, the context window is much larger, or it's, look at how many parameters it has, or something like this.[00:36:44] It's always framed in terms of maybe this could be applied to that kind of part of Elicit, or maybe this would open up this new possibility for Elicit. And, as Adam was saying, yeah, I don't think it's really a I don't think it's a novel or separate skill, it's the kind of attitude I would like to have all engineers to have at a company our stage, actually.[00:37:05] And maybe more generally, even, which is not just kind of getting nerd sniped by some kind of technology number, fancy metric or something, but how is this actually going to be applicable to the thing Which matters in the end. How is this going to help users? How is this going to help move things forward strategically?[00:37:23] That kind of, that kind of thing.[00:37:24] AI Engineering Required Knowledge[00:37:24] swyx: Yeah, applying what , I think, is, is, is the key here. Getting hands on as well. I would, I would recommend a few resources for people listening along. The first is Elicit's ML reading list, which I, I found so delightful after talking with Andreas about it.[00:37:38] It looks like that's part of your onboarding. We've actually set up an asynchronous paper club instead of my discord for people following on that reading list. I love that you separate things out into tier one and two and three, and that gives people a factored cognition way of Looking into the, the, the corpus, right?[00:37:55] Like yes, the, the corpus of things to know is growing and the water is slowly rising as far as what a bar for a competent AI engineer is. But I think, , having some structured thought as to what are the big ones that everyone must know I think is, is, is key. It's something I, I haven't really defined for people and I'm, I'm glad that this is actually has something out there that people can refer to.[00:38:15] Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily like make it required for like the job. Interview maybe, but , it'd be interesting to see like, what would be a red flag. If some AI engineer would not know, I don't know what, , I don't know where we would stoop to, to call something required knowledge, , or you're not part of the cool kids club.[00:38:33] But there increasingly is something like that, right? Like, not knowing what context is, is a black mark, in my opinion, right?[00:38:40] I think it, I think it does connect back to what we were saying before of this genuine Curiosity about and that. Well, maybe it's, maybe it's actually that combined with something else, which is really important, which is a self starting bias towards action, kind of a mindset, which again, everybody needs.[00:38:56] Exactly. Yeah. Everyone needs that. So if you put those two together, or if I'm truly curious about this and I'm going to kind of figure out how to make things happen, then you end up with people. Reading, reading lists, reading papers, doing side projects, this kind of, this kind of thing. So it isn't something that we explicitly included.[00:39:14] We don't have a, we don't have an ML focused interview for the AI engineer role at all, actually. It doesn't really seem helpful. The skills which we are checking for, as I mentioned before, this kind of fault first mindset. And conventional software engineering kind of thing. It's, it's 0. 1 and 0.[00:39:32] 3 on the list that, that we talked about. In terms of checking for ML curiosity and there are, how familiar they are with these concepts. That's more through talking interviews and culture fit types of things. We want for them to have a take on what Elisa is doing. doing, certainly as they progress through the interview process.[00:39:50] They don't need to be completely up to date on everything we've ever done on day zero. Although, , that's always nice when it happens. But for them to really engage with it, ask interesting questions, and be kind of bought into our view on how we want ML to proceed. I think that is really important, and that would reveal that they have this kind of this interest, this ML curiosity.[00:40:13] ML First Mindset[00:40:13] swyx: There's a second aspect to that. I don't know if now's the right time to talk about it, which is, I do think that an ML first approach to building software is something of a different mindset. I could, I could describe that a bit now if that, if that seems good, but yeah, I'm a team. Okay. So yeah, I think when I joined Elicit, this was the biggest adjustment that I had to make personally.[00:40:37] So as I said before, I'd been, Effectively building conventional software stuff for 15 years or so, something like this, well, for longer actually, but professionally for like 15 years. And had a lot of pattern matching built into my brain and kind of muscle memory for if you see this kind of problem, then you do that kind of a thing.[00:40:56] And I had to unlearn quite a lot of that when joining Elicit because we truly are ML first and try to use ML to the fullest. And some of the things that that means is, This relinquishing of control almost, at some point you are calling into this fairly opaque black box thing and hoping it does the right thing and dealing with the stuff that it sends back to you.[00:41:17] And that's very different if you're interacting with, again, APIs and databases, that kind of a, that kind of a thing. You can't just keep on debugging. At some point you hit this, this obscure wall. And I think the second, the second part to this is the pattern I was used to is that. The external parts of the app are where most of the messiness is, not necessarily in terms of code, but in terms of degrees of freedom, almost.[00:41:44] If the user can and will do anything at any point, and they'll put all sorts of wonky stuff inside of text inputs, and they'll click buttons you didn't expect them to click, and all this kind of thing. But then by the time you're down into your SQL queries, for example, as long as you've done your input validation, things are pretty pretty well defined.[00:42:01] And that, as we said before, is not really the case. When you're working with language models, there is this kind of intrinsic uncertainty when you get down to the, to the kernel, down to the core. Even, even beyond that, there's all that stuff is somewhat defensive and these are things to be wary of to some degree.[00:42:18] Though the flip side of that, the really kind of positive part of taking an ML first mindset when you're building applications is that you, If you, once you get comfortable taking your hands off the wheel at a certain point and relinquishing control, letting go then really kind of unexpected powerful things can happen if you lean on the, if you lean on the capabilities of the model without trying to overly constrain and slice and dice problems with to the point where you're not really wringing out the most capability from the model that you, that you might.[00:42:47] So, I was trying to think of examples of this earlier, and one that came to mind was we were working really early when just after I joined Elicit, we were working on something where we wanted to generate text and include citations embedded within it. So it'd have a claim, and then a, , square brackets, one, in superscript, something, something like this.[00:43:07] And. Every fiber in my, in my, in my being was screaming that we should have some way of kind of forcing this to happen or Structured output such that we could guarantee that this citation was always going to be present later on that the kind of the indication of a footnote would actually match up with the footnote itself and Kind of went into this symbolic.[00:43:28] I need full control kind of kind of mindset and it was notable that Andreas Who's our CEO, again, has been on the podcast, was was the opposite. He was just kind of, give it a couple of examples and it'll probably be fine. And then we can kind of figure out with a regular expression at the end. And it really did not sit well with me, to be honest.[00:43:46] I was like, but it could say anything. I could say, it could literally say anything. And I don't know about just using a regex to sort of handle this. This is a potent feature of the app. But , this is that was my first kind of, , The starkest introduction to this ML first mindset, I suppose, which Andreas has been cultivating for much longer than me, much longer than most, of yeah, there might be some surprises of stuff you get back from the model, but you can also It's about finding the sweet spot, I suppose, where you don't want to give a completely open ended prompt to the model and expect it to do exactly the right thing.[00:44:25] You can ask it too much and it gets confused and starts repeating itself or goes around in loops or just goes off in a random direction or something like this. But you can also over constrain the model. And not really make the most of the, of the capabilities. And I think that is a mindset adjustment that most people who are coming into AI engineering afresh would need to make of yeah, giving up control and expecting that there's going to be a little bit of kind of extra pain and defensive stuff on the tail end, but the benefits that you get as a, as a result are really striking.[00:44:58] The ML first mindset, I think, is something that I struggle with as well, because the errors, when they do happen, are bad. , they will hallucinate, and your systems will not catch it sometimes if you don't have large enough of a sample set.[00:45:13] AI Engineers and Creativity[00:45:13] swyx: I'll leave it open to you, Adam. What else do you think about when you think about curiosity and exploring capabilities?[00:45:22] Do people are there reliable ways to get people to push themselves? for joining us on Capabilities, because I think a lot of times we have this implicit overconfidence, maybe, of we think we know what it is, what a thing is, when actually we don't, and we need to keep a more open mind, and I think you do a particularly good job of Always having an open mind, and I want to get that out of more engineers that I talk to, but I, I, I, I struggle sometimes.[00:45:45] Adam Wiggins: I suppose being an engineer is, at its heart, this sort of contradiction of, on one hand, yeah,
We are living in a time of deep uncertainty, marked by global conflicts, economic anxiety, and societal divisions. No wonder we're so uneasy. Founder and host of the “On Being” podcast Krista Tippett says these uncertain times require a larger spiritual quest for meaning and stillness in modern life. We inhabit a noisy, distracting world of Slacks and texts, and we need to learn how to get quiet. It's surprisingly hard, and Krista shares her own journey managing burnout and “befriending reality” in all its glorious messiness. Then she sends listeners off with a benediction on burnout. Email us at Saymore@globe.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Episode 3.05 ("Felonious Funk"). Written by Lori Furth, Lyssa Graham, Dale Leopold and Jack Mooney. Will the real Jake please stand up? Plaintiffs and Defendants become (Aileen) Cannon Fodder. Kids get some Real Life Rock songs. Jesus has a Pride Party, and Ted has…questions. A school Career Day takes an unexpected turn. An office worker Slacks off. A convicted felon breaks into song. And the Nuts gang hurtles towards Sudden Death Overtime. Featuring the vocal talents of the Suffolk & Goode Players: Rebecca Davis (Herself, Judge Aileen Cannon, Worker 1, Lucy) Dustin Ebaugh (Himself, Defendant 2, Matthew, Worker 2, Jonas, Jay) Lori Furth (Herself, Alice, Teacher, Woodstock, Sally) Lyssa Graham (Herself, Plaintiff 1, Mary Magdalene) Dale Leopold (Himself, Announcer, Defendant 1, Ted, Karl, Newscaster) Chris Mezzolesta (Cannon Fodder Announcer, Apostle, Schroeder/Red Baron, Himself) Karyn O'Bryant (Herself, Bailiff, Robin, Mary Sue) George Washington III (Himself, Plaintiff 2, Get Real Rock Announcer, Jesus Christ, Nuts Announcer, Snoop) And Special Guest Jake Reynolds (Himself--really!, Travis) Original Music composed, performed and produced by Chris Mezzolesta. The song, "Felony!" a parody of "Agony!" by Stephen Sondheim, had lyrics by Brian Helm, and was performed by Special Guest Jeff Hopp and produced by Chris Mezzolesta. The songs "Citizens United" and "It's the Dog's Turn" had lyrics by Lori Furth and music by Chris Mezzolesta, who also performed them. Editing, sound design and audio production by Dale Leopold Artwork by Richard McMurry
In 2024 we don't even bat an eyelid if a woman wears pants, or slacks as they used to be called, but it was a very different scene in 1933. At the time, women wearing pants was deemed immodest, unbecoming and unfeminine.
Connor recaps the NHL Playoffs, and asks if New York is back. He tells us about his thrilling night at Werner Park where he pulled tarp, and fired the T-Shirt cannon.
Welcome back to purgatory!!! Tron is out on vacay with the fam for the next four weeks so Mike, Jeremy and Joanna sit back and relax as they shoot the shit about of their three favorite killer 80's tracks!!! Thanks for checkin us out, if you'd like to find our back catalog go to podbean.com Outro track "Fresh Fur" by Castle Rat https://youtu.be/xp-8USQQc1Q?si=ZHKlc7gaKMQ175Ez Please support them here. Into The Realm | Castle Rat (bandcamp.com)
don't care what you call 'em....just keep 'em properly "up" and fastened......
Starlight Thursdays Episode 198 DJ Slacks is back with a beautiful deep house mix. Filled with groves, funky beats and all together smooth How long have you been DJing? 5 years this year!! Why did you get into it? There is nothing better than playing a show with your friends and watching the crowd move. Missoula keeps me doing it. What events have you played? Summer Roller Boogies, Monks Bar, Badlander,The Furnace, The sidewalk outside the Wilma, Daisychain Events, Funk of July, Suite Two Where are you from? Los Angeles, CA What genres are in this mix? Techno, House, Afrohouse, Electronica Can you tell us a bit about your mix? I made this mix New Years Day, as soon as I got home from celebrating another journey around the calendar. I wasn't ready to sleep as I wanted to watch the sunrise and reflect on 2023. I thought about the ups and downs, highs and lows. I thought about how grateful I was for the community surrounding me. It sounds silly but I imagined myself as a bowling ball, being bounced back and forth off the bumpers as I slowly rolled down the lane. Lots of ups, lots of downs, lots of side to side. But I never hit the gutter.. I think this mix reflects 2023 for me in that way. Lots of ups and downs, happy times, sad times, with introspective bumpers in between to keep you in a forward motion towards the pins. Hitting all pins isnt the goal…you can hit the gutter and the ball comes right back to you, ready for you to roll down the lane again and give it your best. For more check out youtube.com/strattonjack87 Instagram @DJSTRATTONMT
Josh Herzig-Marx, founder of Knect, discusses the latest developments in his startup journey since his last appearance on the show. He emphasizes the program's value in helping founders like himself refine ideas and strategies. He particularly notes the program's effectiveness in addressing challenges unique to startups, such as managing professional networks and dealing with the rapid growth of online presence. The conversation also delves into AI's technical aspects and potential applications and the practicalities and ethical considerations of using it in professional networking. Josh and Jordyn explore various AI use cases, distinguishing between beneficial applications and those they deem undesirable. Transcript: LINDSEY: We are back for our Incubator update with Josh Herzig-Marx and his startup, Knect. I'm Lindsey Christensen. I do marketing things at thoughtbot. We are also joined by Jordyn Bonds, who runs our incubator and does product strategy for thoughtbot. And today, we're going to be catching up with Josh and learn what's new since last we checked in. But before we get to that, we have an exciting incubator update: our application window has just reopened. JORDYN: Yes. LINDSEY: You could be the next Josh. JORDYN: You could. JOSH: Don't be me. You should join the incubator. [laughter] JORDYN: Go to thoughtbot.com/incubator and apply. It's just that easy. The application doesn't take long, even though it's in Typeform, and we have gotten some feedback, including from Josh, that it's challenging to plan your application efforts because, as you all probably know, Typeform just gives you one question at a time. So, sorry, maybe we'll update that. But it won't take you very long. It's a pretty brief application. And we are looking for pre-product folks, so you don't have to have a lot. Don't worry about what you do or don't have. Just apply. LINDSEY: Pre-product founder trying to figure out, is this problem worth solving? Who is it for? Jordyn and the team can help you out. thoughtbot.com/incubator. JOSH: And me. LINDSEY: And Josh. JOSH: And if, for some reason, you want to ask somebody about the program who isn't directly affiliated with thoughtbot, you should reach out to me. I'd be happy to talk about my experience. LINDSEY: You should. JOSH: I'd be happy to tell you what I think would be some reasons to join and some reasons that it might not be a good fit for you. And I'd be happy to chat about any of those things. It'd be my pleasure, in fact. LINDSEY: That is a great offer. JORDYN: It is a great offer. You all should take Josh up on that offer. He is an excellent sounding board and mentor. And additionally, if you get into the incubator, you'll just be in a Slack channel with Josh for the rest of time, inside of thoughtbot's Slack. So, that's another [crosstalk 02:05] JOSH: Statistically, there's a good chance you already are. [laughter] JORDYN: You mean in a slack with you. That's true. Josh is in a lot of Slacks, not [crosstalk 02:14]. LINDSEY: Yeah. Once you go through the incubator, you're family for life. JORDYN: You're family. You're here. You're with us. You can't get rid of us. LINDSEY: And you're able to hit us up with the questions, talk to the other founders, so that's another great benefit of participating. All right, but topic of the hour, Josh, hey, how are you? How you doing? JOSH: Lindsey, I am floating right now. We had our end of incubator session last official meeting. And we reviewed how we started, what we hope to accomplish, what we actually did accomplish, and next steps, and it feels really awesome. LINDSEY: It does. That's so great to hear. And can you, at the top here, maybe remind folks who haven't listened before, you know, what was that beginning point that you came in the incubator or the problem that you were looking to solve? JOSH: So, I had this Josh problem, which is that I am overwhelmed by the number of places that I am online and by the rapid increase in my professional network, professional social network, I guess you could say, but in my professional network, you know, see that comment a few minutes ago about how we're probably already in multiple Slacks together, whoever you happen to be online. Plus, if you're on LinkedIn, we're probably at least secondary connections on LinkedIn. Like, there's an awful lot of people, and it's growing really, really fast. And as somebody with a whopping case of ADD, which just feels like making an excuse, as somebody in, like, this modern world, I was feeling overwhelmed, and I felt like I was dropping the ball. And my problem was somebody must have a solution to this. I cannot be the only one. I could not find a solution myself. And I thought, well, maybe if there is no existing solution, maybe we should just go ahead and build it. And that was the genesis of my application to the thoughtbot incubator, which was that even though I've done this once before, I had never done this alone. I don't want to do this alone. And I thought that, you know, because of my experience with thoughtbot in the past and my understanding of, like, thoughtbot's unique organizational skills and capacities, this would be a particularly good fit for the thing that I wanted to figure out. And when I say figure it out, there was really four things I was hoping to get from this program. Let's see if I can remember them all in order. Number one, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem affecting more people? Number two, this is, like, a ladder of problems, right? Like a cascading set. Number two thing I was trying to figure out: if this isn't just a Josh problem, is there at least one identifiable and addressable set of people who think about this problem in a similar way with whom I could engage? Number three, if there is such a group, are they willing, ready, and able to, like, spend money on solving this problem? And then number four, which I guess is kind of orthogonal to the other ones, it's kind of alongside, is this thing to solve even technically feasible, right? Because you can have this, like, amazing opportunity, but you just can't build it. And, you know, is this a thing that we could build or that I could get built within the resources that I might have? And I came in with some hypotheses, with some ideas. It's not like I had never done any research in this at all. But coming out of it, we have four pretty good answers. And I would not have been able to reach those answers with the same level of confidence, certainly not within eight weeks, if I hadn't gone through the incubator, and it's a really nice way to end the year. LINDSEY: With a bow on it. The last time we talked, you had narrowed in, I think, on your starting target market. And you had also recently introduced a prototype into the mix. How has the prototype evolved? JOSH: It's...and this is going to be no surprise to either of you or anybody who's listening. But, like, the difference between, like, talking about something in the abstract and actually having, like, a thing in your hand is night and day. So, the prototype actually evolved pretty rapidly. You know, it allowed us to try using it, like, to put on our own empathetic user analog hats and try it ourselves and be like, "Well, this doesn't quite make sense." This doesn't actually flow right. And it allowed us to show it to a lot of people. I'll say, we are, by far, our own strongest critics, which is good. Mostly, when we showed it to people, people are like, "This is amazing." And they would ask us, like, really specific, weird questions like, "Where's, you know, your about page? Could I see your privacy policy?" which is, like, a really, really good thing to hear. Because if the only thing...one way to interpret that is the only thing keeping them from maybe, like, diving in and using it right now, besides it doesn't actually exist as a product, is, like, some questions around privacy because it seems maybe too good to be true. Like, that's a pretty good buy sign. You know, we were expecting, like, "The screen makes no sense. Why are we swiping here? Where does this data come from? Is this really complete?" They're like, "No, I'm pretty much ready to go." So, that was good, helpful feedback, though we evolved it ourselves a lot internally. It's really nice having a thing. Do we use the term Pinocchio prototype or Pinocchio test [crosstalk 06:58]? LINDSEY: Yes, I did hear that. JOSH: Yeah, I like that. If this was like, you know, this wooden toy wanted to be a real boy, like, two weeks ago, it really, really wants...I don't know, Lindsey, we should, you know, get you in front of it. You're going to be like, "Why can't I use this today?" [laughter] JORDYN: That's definitely what we're hearing from people. JOSH: And my answer would be, "Well, you can't, but maybe in a couple of weeks." [laughs] JORDYN: Yeah, exactly. I will say I want to say for anyone listening in, though, that that was not, getting to what Josh just described where folks weren't really...they didn't have any hang-ups about the functionality or the value prop. They were basically just like, "What's your privacy policy? And when is it going to be ready for me to use?" It's not like the first draft of this prototype that was what we jumped to. I want to be clear. The first time we showed someone, there was this interesting problem, which is that we were still talking to the wrong people, somewhat. And the prototype hadn't evolved to be the slam dunk that it is now. So, at first, it was like, we'd have these kinds of muddled conversations where people were like, "Well, I don't really understand what this is supposed to be, and I'm not sure about that. And this seems interesting," but then their interpretation of what that thing was would be, like, wildly off from what it was intended to be. I just want to make it clear: this was work and effort. And the team did a really great job of iterating quickly based on, like, every time we talked to someone and showed it to them, we'd come back and say, "Here's what I heard." And it really pushed our thinking forward. Like Josh said, like, we are our toughest critics, so, like, every new version unlocked some new insights in ourselves about what it was we were actually driving toward. Really, just there's nothing like having a thing to look at and bang on to, like, clarify your thinking. LINDSEY: There's nothing like having a thing. Jordyn, you touched on you were talking to the wrong people, maybe. How has that exploration of the core market evolved? Is it still the startup enthusiasts? Are you even more narrow in that? What are the updates there as our chief market focus get everyone thinking about this all the time, officer? JORDYN: Yes. So, you know, startup enthusiasts is still the umbrella. What you're looking for with this is that you can guarantee pretty much every time you talk to someone in a segment or a sub-segment you will know how the conversation is going to go. And we've gotten there with two sub-segments of startup enthusiasts, which is repeat founders, key, key kind of nuance there. Founders, sure, but repeat founders really have this problem, for reasons we could talk about, and then chiefs of staff at startups, which is a relatively new role that's sort of emerged over the last sort of several years. But those folks are really the people that you ask them about this pain point, and they immediately are, like, yes. They use the same words to talk about the pain point. That's another really strong signal. When folks are using the same vocabulary, and they say the same sentences in the same order, and you start to feel a little bit creeped out, like, you're like, "Did you see these questions before I...? What? Did someone pay you to say that?" is, like, how you start to feel [laughs] [crosstalk 09:59] LINDSEY: Also, a marketer's dream. Oh my gosh, here comes the messaging, right? JORDYN: Exactly. LINDSEY: [inaudible 10:04] JORDYN: It feels like a cheat code because you just get to reflect their language back to them. You don't have to write copy. They wrote the copy. You just show them it, and they're like, yes. And everyone's like, "Yes," and it works. LINDSEY: Any thoughts to add to that, Josh? JOSH: It's really good. I would say the bummer or the good thing about this point is we're getting diminishing returns from testing everything other than the actual product, which is good that we got there in eight weeks. But we're not going to learn, you know, keep on adjusting the prototype and making little tweaks and more user research. But the truth is, we're not going to get anything substantial until we get this into some users' hands. JORDYN: Like you say, this is sort of bad news, but it's good news. JOSH: Right. JORDYN: It's how you know, right? When you get to the point where the thing is so clear, and the way to talk about it with folks is so clear that you're not learning as much anymore, diminishing returns is the right way to frame it. You really just need people to get in there and use it. That's the only way you're going to keep learning. That's the moment to build. Hey, everyone out there, don't build before that. That's when you build. And then you really build the smallest thing you can conceive of building, and then whatever that thing is that you've conceived of building that's very small, scope it back by 50% [laughs]. Do it. JOSH: And it's a little humbling as someone who considers himself a founder but who had reasonable success as a founder and who has had pretty good success as, like a very, very early-stage, you know, zero to one and 1 to 10 product leader, has done this a bunch of times and actually coaches people in doing this, and came in with, I'm not going to lie, a pretty good vision in my head for how this stuff was supposed to work together. And it's so much better now. Going through a process actually makes things better. This wasn't just, like, wasting time. Like, going through a process, a thoughtful process actually makes us much better. Like, the thing we're talking about building is much more likely to be successful than the thing I was originally thinking about building, right, Jordyn? JORDYN: Yes. I guess it bears sort of diving into that a little bit, which is, you know, for all the founders out there or folks with a product idea kicking around your head, you're apt to have a little bit of everything we've talked about already. You have an idea of the solution you want to build. You have an idea of who it's for. You have an idea of what their pain points are. And you might be sitting there thinking to yourself, I don't need to do eight weeks of discovery. I already know the answers to all of these questions. And it's possible Josh felt that way coming into the incubator, but doing the work, gathering the data, talking to a ton of people, what you can't understand before doing that is how much more confident and at ease you will feel once you have done it and how much clarity you'll have about what it is you need to build first because likely, you're sitting there with a vision in your head for this product that is fully featured, fully formed. It is the 18th month. We just went into a hidey hole and built a really complex thing, thing. Cool, don't throw that out. But you got to begin somewhere, and you got to begin somewhere meaningful and valuable. And it's really hard to know where to begin without this discovery, without focusing on a specific person, talking to as many of those folks as you can. And really, it sort of writes itself. It does feel easy. But you've got to set aside the time and the effort to do the research, market research, whatever we call this, customer discovery. And it thrills me to no end, Josh, to hear that that is how it felt for you, that you probably felt like you already knew the answer. But it just feels different, having talked to, I mean, how many people, 100-plus people? We were looking at the stats. JOSH: Well over 100. LINDSEY: Josh was talking to a bunch of people before he came to the incubator, and all the founders that we accept have been doing that. Like, we want to know that you've been doing that research. But then, I guess, coming into the incubator, you're continuing that process and maybe in a more structured or a differently structured way where the thoughtbot team is helping you, maybe zero in far deeper on the segment. Is that accurate to say? Just kind of the difference between, like, maybe some of the pre-research and then the thoughtbot-specific user interviews that happen. JOSH: Yeah. I think they were more focused. They're both more focused from the audience, but also more focused from if it's not just you doing it; it forces you to have a more clear, here's the questions we're asking, and here's what we're trying to learn, all these conversations. It's also really nice to have some diversity in who's asking the questions. As good or bad as I am at user research and user discovery, I am only one person. And having people with different backgrounds professionally, who live in different countries, who have different feelings about social media, basically, who are not me in a variety of really interesting ways, I think, made the entire process more interesting. Caro, who is our lead designer on the project, handed off basically the summary document of, like, everything we learned, and she pulled out, like, little snippets from the interviews. First of all, that is not something I would have done had it been just me, like, let's be very, very clear. This is an incredibly valuable document, particularly as we consider adding additional people onto this project to be able to, like, translate insights. But also, like, this is, like, summarized in a way that, like, takes some real expertise. And I would have walked away with vibes, and instead, we walked away with like, structured learning. LINDSEY: Awesome. So, the last time we checked in, also, you were very excited because you had just maybe started a technical spike and were starting to dig into the, okay, like, how technically feasible is this product? And I think, at that point, you all were looking at circling around this target market. Here are the main tools they use to communicate. What does it even look like to connect with those APIs? How possible is it? Can you give us an update on some of that work? JOSH: The way that I framed the question in the very beginning was, is this a science project, or is this going to be engineering? And, for the most part, the answer is, it's going to be engineering, right? Some are a little bit easier; some are a little bit harder. But it isn't, like, reinventing new stuff, with one exception, and that is connecting up with iMessages, which has been in the news a little bit. And I honestly just hope the ghost of Steve Jobs comes back and haunts, you know, the Apple headquarters at Cupertino because, come on, guys, interoperability is sort of the future, and you're ruining it for everybody. But other than that, I think we have a pretty clear path. I'd like to test out some of these. Like, you don't really know until you do it. I think that's kind of the next step of what we're doing is to, like, demonstrate that it is possible for a person to connect up a couple of different accounts. It is possible for us to extract data and turn that into information and insights in the kinds of ways we thought we could and then present that back in a meaningful way. I think that would be the next step for us to do. Mostly, everything seems feasible, except for iMessages. LINDSEY: I've also, I think, heard some whispers of artificial intelligence for Knect. Is that true? Have you all looked at, you know, what AI's role could be in the solution? And how does that research look? JORDYN: We assume it will be part of the mix. That said, I don't know how to frame it exactly. It's not like it's not an essential ingredient. I think the work with large language models and the democratization of that work recently is absolutely going to make this product way better than it would have otherwise been. But there are a lot of heuristics we've, like, been able to, you know, draw out and come up with that are, frankly, algorithmic, and they're not AI necessarily. Now, the line between big data plus an algorithm and AI in the popular lexicon, like, there's a big difference between those two things. But, like, as people talk about it, yeah, where does one end and the other begin? But we definitely will be making use of a lot of the newest technologies, and we've dabbled in them. I've dabbled in them. I know, Josh, you've been playing around with some of them, too, to the point where we're like, okay, yeah, we can make use of this stuff. It will be a valuable kind of tool in our toolkit, but it will not be the sole basis of value. I guess that's the sort of nuanced answer. But maybe Josh has a more bite-sized hype machine answer to this. Yeah, AI to the moon, right? JOSH: Um, no. My only answer would be more cynical. Would anybody rightfully start a company in 2023 without having AI in there someplace? Maybe I'll say something different. One of the things that we've wondered is, there's more than a handful of companies that are adjacent to what we're doing that are definitely looking at similar kinds of problems and that aren't building the solution that, clearly, some market is, like, desperate for. And these are not, like, wildly successful companies that have grown astronomically and changed the market. And, like, trying to figure out, like, why is that? And one of the reasons is...I sound like a tech bro, right? There has been a paradigm shift in the technology world, but there really has been. What do, you know, publicly available LLMs like, you know, OpenAI's ChatGPT, like, what have they done? They have taken a whole set of problems that were once really, really complicated and allowed you to do a reasonable job of solving them much more easily than you ever could before. And it takes some amount of imagination, to realize that, to realize that these things are more than just, I mean, every product I have on my computer has some kind of OpenAI ChatGPT-style thing in there, right? It's, like, 16 different variations on give me a prompt, and I'll write your essay for you, and they all kind of suck. But those aren't the really exciting uses that I've seen. It's the more subtle things. There's a company called Booklet, which tries to replace, like, noisy email lists or noisy communities to something more calm. And one of its features is it'll send you a summary of what's been going on in the community since, like, the last time you checked in. And it gives you, like, two paragraphs to read, and they're really chill and really informative, and they don't make you feel FOMO. They don't make you feel stressed up. Like, okay, stuff's happened in the community. This is really neat. And it's all powered by OpenAI's APIs. And it's really kind of magical. And, like, you have to have a slightly different perspective to imagine these kinds of magical moments. So, that's what I'm excited about. There's a set of things that we would have had to do with, like, terrible, complicated queries and, like, pattern matching, and freaking grep, or whatever old-school tools we would have had, you know, for doing things in the past. And now you just get to, like, shove text in one end, and say how you want the results structured and get the results back in the other end. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but that's okay. Like, we're talking about human relationships, which are inherently imperfect. So, I'm fine with this. And it's kind of exciting. But we'll see in, you know, if we end up continuing going down this path. Like, that's the goal of the next stage is to be, like, okay, what are the easy things which we can generate out of this? Is there an intersection between, like, easy and meaningful? And if there is, this is pretty exciting. JORDYN: Can I add something to that? Which is that the problem Knect is trying to solve and the way that we're trying to solve it, the way we've thought of solving it that's differentiated, lends itself really well to the current landscape of AI tools in that, and you were kind of getting at this, Josh, but I feel like it bears drilling into a little bit, in that what we are proposing here is not a set of deterministic things. We're not going to give you a to-do list. It's not, like, a linear...deterministic is really the right word. Like, there's a to-do list. There are things that make the cut. You got to go address them, et cetera. We're way more trying to approximate the way a slightly more put-together person with more time would approach nurturing their relationships, which is just to remember more of it more of the time. It doesn't mean we need to remember all of it every time. That's not the kind of task this is, which makes it a really good task for the place that AI is at right now. And I think where folks have failed in the past is that they've either tried to turn it into a deterministic set of tasks, which then just feels like another to-do list, another inbox in a series of to-do lists and inboxes that you have in your life that just make you feel guilty and inadequate. That doesn't seem fun to us. We don't think you need another one of those. Or other places we've seen this fall down, which is that it takes the current sort of state of AI and tries to actually do the deterministic thing for you, but it doesn't do a good enough job right now. But where we've kind of landed in the middle is that, again, what we're trying to solve for is solvable in a way more probabilistic way. Like, can we get more of this accomplished more easily for you? It's never going to, like, completely, you know, do the task in this perfect deterministic way. But it is going to make you feel more confident and more relaxed à la Booklet, it sounds like, how to do that for this particular problem, which is a different bar and one we think we can clear. And that really does provide value. People are really longing for this. LINDSEY: Jordyn and Josh, building on those descriptions of, like, kind of maybe bad AI use case, good AI use case, could you give some specific examples of, like, what that might look like for Knect, like, how AI could be used in a good way or maybe what you're trying to avoid, more specifically? JOSH: Yeah. First, I'm going to start with what I want to avoid, which is, there are tools out there, and these may be interesting to some people listening, and if so, go find them. Good luck. But there are tools out there that say things like, "Keep in touch with your network at scale." And will use AI to write a message which you can send out to people without you ever having to, like, review it. That seems like creepy, futuristic sort of, you know, there's, like, a Black Mirror episode about that. Like, the whole point of having, like, a professional network of people who you care about is actually interacting with them. And having some service, like, write some prompt, maybe in its own voice, maybe if it's really good in your voice to, like, let them know that you care about them, let them know that you're thinking about them is, like, that's just bad. I think that's bad. And we don't have any plans to do that kind of thing, even though most uses for AI in the products that I use are writing three or four paragraphs in response to, like, a prompt. So, certainly, that's the common use case. It's not very appealing to us, and, frankly, in the people we were talking to, that wasn't one of the things that anybody ever suggested. It's obvious, but as far as we can tell, uninteresting, right? Just because it's obvious and just because it's straightforward doesn't mean it's interesting. The things we're imagining, for example, is, talk about Jordyn. Jordyn and I have known each other since 2020, I think. And we have, like, a whole history of text messages going back and forth, which, by the way, we actually could integrate because we both have Android phones, you know, shout-out for Open Internet. It might be interesting to, you know, summarize some of that, like, I know Jordyn pretty well, but other people who I might have not talked with in a while, sure, you could present me with a whole timeline of our communication. But that isn't necessarily useful. I'll have to read every bit of it. Why not, like, take all that and summarize, here's things you guys talk about. Here's things that, like, prompted your past few conversations: job change, got laid off, started a company, got a cat. Whatever those topics happen to be like, share some of those things. Bring me up to speed a little bit faster without having to literally review every word that could have been going back multiple years. That's a pretty good use of it. If you think about the way that messages work, right? Like, my kids are now at the age where they have phones, and I can now text my kids during the day. I will just tell you, like, this is, like, an incredibly joyful thing for me to be able to send, like, stupid memes to my kids or, like, what's exactly the right emoji to, like, send to them or for them to send to me. If every one of these things were, like, pushed to some kind of timeline, and I'm like, "What's going on with my kids?" Like, that's just, like, going back and reading through, like, your WhatsApp thread, which is something that isn't interesting necessarily, at least not from, like, a professional perspective. And there's, like, thousands of these things. Like, why do I want, like, a record in my, like, database of people who I talk to that says, "OMG," or "K," or "lol," or those sorts of things? Like, that's, like, a phrase. It isn't a conversation. And we could use an LLM to go summarize what the conversation was all about, which is, by the way, a way more interesting thing to persist over time than, like, my daughter typing "JK, JK, JK," which I think is 15-year-old for laughing at me, but I'm not entirely sure. LINDSEY: [laughs] Okay, so as you are...you mentioned wrapping up, and you did your last meeting, and you've got your kind of takeaway docs. You know, one, I'm curious, like, if there's, for your last, you know, days, hours of the program, if there's any final morsels you're trying to get out of it, and then how that kind of leads you into, like, what's next. What are you planning? JOSH: Let's do another one of these things in two weeks. [laughter] LINDSEY: Oh, okay. JOSH: Yeah. I'm inviting myself back on your show. We have one more day of school then, like so many folks, we get in a plane or get in a car and go do some travel and try to disconnect a little bit from our professional networks. So, I'm consciously not trying to say what's going to happen next. I would love to have this conversation again, maybe in two weeks, in the new year, about what comes next. I don't know that I could have a meaningful one right now. JORDYN: I will say what we are trying to send Josh off with into his R&R is what's it going to take to get to a viable MVP, not merely viable, but actually viable? Given what we know, given all this, you know, work that we've done in the last eight weeks, we now have, you know, the ability to envision what version one of something might be. And so, making that kind of argument: here's why it is what we're imagining it to be; here's what it is; here's what it would take to build that thing, gives Josh a lot of stuff to think about in the meantime in terms of how to accomplish that. And the thing that will happen in two weeks is understanding a little bit more about, like, the actual, okay, here's the actual plan. But the ingredients are there, which is super valuable and is a thing we have done every time at the end of every incubator we've done. It's essentially a...it is that what's next plan and why, why that thing. What's the ultimate upside of pursuing this product, and what's the near-term upside? And what's it going to take to get there? Because that's often a thing that founders, especially for some founders, which Josh is not, but what they often can't get their heads around is there's this little feeling if you've got this big vision over here, and you've got, like, the set of things you could do tomorrow, really tasky things really, like, operational things, oh, I need to, like, set up a C Corp, but I need to...whatever those things are, right? What's in between? What's that near-term path that's going to directionally head in the direction of that big vision? It's, so far, always, what we have sent founders off with. LINDSEY: So, if you weren't here at the very beginning of our session, we mentioned that the applications are now open for session 1 of 2024. I'm curious, Josh, what kind of founders would you recommend for the thoughtbot incubator? What's the profile of someone you might send our way? JOSH: I'm going to say something, and I don't think I match that profile, which is interesting, and folks should think about that, what that means. But I would say that if I had to, like, pick a profile, having gone through this, I would say somebody with an idea, of course; ideally, it's one that they have some connection to. They have some personal passion for but, not just because it's an abstract idea but a personal passion that comes from their own experience. And it's really great for somebody who hasn't been inside of a tech company before, at least on the tech, half the business. Tech companies have three halves: one half is, you know, the product building side of bit of it or the tech half, which is engineers, and product designers, and product managers. And the other half of that is the go-to-market side, like sales, and marketing, and customer success. And the third half would be, like, operations like HR and finance. So, if you have experience in, like, the sales, or the marketing, or the customer success side, or the HR, or the finance, or corporate operations or that part of it, and, you know, you're familiar with tech coming from that perspective but maybe haven't been on the actually building stuff side of them before, this is a really, really good process. Because what does thoughtbot do? It does the building in tech side of things: designers, product managers, and especially engineers. And it has this, like, legacy and this history and expertise, therefore, with, like, the journeyman program where they help, like, level people up in those areas and now are applying this to founders. Because as the founder, you do need to develop some ability to converse around engineering and technical stuff. And you really, really, really, really need to get good at the discovery side, especially of, like, product design and product management. And those are the things you're going to get to do and you're going to get to do with people who are themselves really, really good at it. And that's awesome. The flip side is if you're, you know, a founder who is super attached to every bit of your vision, and you think you have the strategy all laid out and you're just looking for, like, warm bodies to build it, I mean, is it the insight team? What's the right level at thoughtbot? I forget the names of things, but, like, thoughtbot has, like, a startup program where you can give thoughtbot money, and they will build things for you. And they're also really, really good at that, but that's not the incubator program. The incubator program is probably a step earlier. So, I think it is worth thinking, are you at the I'm so confident of my vision; I'm so confident in my strategy that I just want to get this thing built, then maybe don't sign up for the Incubator. But if you're at the stage of I think this is a problem; I'm pretty sure this is a problem; I really want it to get solved; I have some vision, but I know it's going to change, then I think the incubator is really ideal, especially if you're looking to upskill yourself, too, because you're going to walk away with the ability to be conversant around the technology stuff. And you're going to walk away with a crap ton of experience with the discovery, qualitative discovery, like user interviews, quantitative discovery, like, you know, running ads, and landing pages, and all that stuff. Like, you're going to be really solid with that stuff after eight weeks because you will have done it. LINDSEY: Jordyn, any thoughts? JORDYN: I love all that. I think it's accurate. I would only say to those of you sitting out there who are thinking, I'm in that other camp; I'm very confident about what it is I want to build; I would ask you to do a little soul-searching as to whether that's actually true. Like, what evidence do you have? If you needed to stand up in court and defend your conclusions and your vision, could you? And I say that as the person who, as a first-time founder, was deluded in that way. I thought I knew exactly what I was doing and for whom and why. And, boy, howdy, could I have used a program like this to actually get me to sit down and, like, talk to people, listen to them, figure out what was valuable and what wasn't, what a valuable, you know, initial market offering was going to be like. Ah, I wish really, really badly that I'd had something like this because I was pretty deluded. I don't even know, like, what the right word is. I just didn't know what I didn't know. So, like the way you described it, Josh, I know Jordyn of 2017 would have been like, "That's me. I know this thing that I need to do. LINDSEY: [laughs] JORDYN: So, I don't need to apply to this program because I don't need to do any of that discovery work." But I was wrong [laughs]. I was absolutely wrong. I was wrong to the tune of, you know, two years and $150,000 of angel investment. So, consider, it is not idly that I say this to you, person sitting out there who feels very confident in your vision right now. Perhaps you have done all those things already; in that case, [inaudible 33:43] you don't need this. And you just need to [inaudible 33:46] with the thing you already know to be true. But ask yourself, how do you know what you know? LINDSEY: Yeah, even if you...we can help you build the thing. But we're probably, also, still going to push you on [laughs] some of those things we [crosstalk 34:01]. JORDYN: Yeah, we're still going to ask. We're going to ask to see the receipts. LINDSEY: Yeah [laughs]. JORDYN: And maybe you have the receipts, which is great, but we're still going to ask you for them, I guess, is my point. Every team at thoughtbot will ask you for the receipts, by the way, not just mine [laughs]. LINDSEY: The other interesting thing you touched on, Josh, was, I think, where we kind of started the incubator was with that target profile that you just described, which is, like, the less technical founder, and maybe even, like, a first-time founder. And then over time and seeing, like, applications, we broadened that as we saw, like, oh, you know, actually, also, technical founders and repeat founders do still need, like, help with this and can use guidance. So, we've expanded a bit, and maybe that is still, like, the person who gets the most value at the end of the day is the non-technical who hasn't really done this before. But yeah, we've kind of expanded to those other profiles as well. JOSH: There's a reason that repeat founders are no more successful on average than first-time founders, and it's something really important that Jordyn said, which is, you may think you've done all this, but we're going to ask you for the receipts. Just because you've done this before doesn't mean you're going to be good at it. Chances are, if you've done this before, it's mostly because you got really, really lucky; ask me how I know. So, it's nice to have. I mean, I described a profile, and I said that wasn't me. But I'll just tell you, as somebody who, like, spent his entire career, almost his entire career, in the tech side of tech companies, and I think I'm pretty good at it, I'm certainly not the worst at it, thinks I'm pretty good at it, it's still really nice to have a team backing you up in this early moment. It's really nice to have a team. JORDYN: Yeah, I will say another thing that we've heard from every founder we've worked with is just how much more real and actionable their idea feels when they have a team sitting there with them taking them seriously, which is another thing, you know, I really would have benefited from is, like, suddenly, when you've got three or more industry professionals sitting there in a Zoom call with you, like, okay, what are we doing? Why are we doing this? How do we know? The feeling of being taken seriously in that way and then having a bunch of people working full-time with you for eight weeks, they're in it with you; they're asking the questions; they're talking to people; they're coming back and saying, "I just had the most amazing conversation with someone. Here's what I learned," it just takes your project to a different level of reality. Like, we're humans. We're social beings. We create reality together. And when you're working alone, you know, through force of will, you can do a lot, but with a group, it really feels like you're creating something together. And, like Josh said, having those other brains with other experiences in other contexts percolating on your idea it's like bringing a team to bear on something. There's just nothing quite like it, and it's a huge value of the program. Like, we can give you the programming and, in fact, you can go run the programming. It is published in our handbook. The things that we do together you can go do, but it is a whole other matter to do them with a team. It just feels different. LINDSEY: Great. Well, I think that's where we're going to end today. I mean, Josh is leaving us hanging a little bit. So, we might need to...we're going to figure out a way to get your final thoughts, conclusions in a few weeks because I know everyone would love to hear what the plan is for Knect. Josh and Jordyn, as always, thank you so much. Any final thoughts or farewells from you today? JOSH: I've really enjoyed it. I'm going to miss these folks. Though, apparently, I get to hang out in a special Slack channel forever. LINDSEY: Yeah, you get to hang out. JOSH: Which is nice. LINDSEY: Exactly. You can't get rid of us just yet. JOSH: Good. I wouldn't want to. LINDSEY: All right. Thanks, y'all. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in. Special Guest: Josh Herzig-Marx .
In the first hour SKOR North's Judd Zulgad talks about the Wolves loss to the Pelicans and hears about Tom's lunch with Sid Hartman and Gene Simmons, KSTP's Chris Egert shares info about the early Jefferey Epstein flight log lists being released and what it means if someone's name is on the list, plus other top news stories from the day. Hour #2 has actor/director Kevin Interdonato and actor & UFC legend Frankie Edgar join the show to talk about their recent project together called "The Bastard Sons" which will be in select theaters and available on demand starting January 5th! In hour #3, we get biblical. Old testament biblical. Do you know what you aren't supposed to do on the sabbath? How many cubits are you allowed to carry something? The answer to both questions is "it doesn't matter as long as you have a wire in the sky". Then, Kristyn Burtt and the crew reminisce about the days back when movies used to exist. Or something like that. On the Family, we finally ask the question of why politicians are so greedy and selfish. I know, you've been waiting a long time for it. Rest assured, your day has come at last. We also, on a more serious note, hear Gelfand's thoughts on the passing of Pat Ebertz. He and Pat shared a special connection: being awake very, very late. Stream the show LIVE on the Tom Barnard Show app M-F from 8-12PM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
In the first hour SKOR North's Judd Zulgad talks about the Wolves loss to the Pelicans and hears about Tom's lunch with Sid Hartman and Gene Simmons, KSTP's Chris Egert shares info about the early Jefferey Epstein flight log lists being released and what it means if someone's name is on the list, plus other top news stories from the day.Hour #2 has actor/director Kevin Interdonato and actor & UFC legend Frankie Edgar join the show to talk about their recent project together called "The Bastard Sons" which will be in select theaters and available on demand starting January 5th!In hour #3, we get biblical. Old testament biblical. Do you know what you aren't supposed to do on the sabbath? How many cubits are you allowed to carry something? The answer to both questions is "it doesn't matter as long as you have a wire in the sky". Then, Kristyn Burtt and the crew reminisce about the days back when movies used to exist. Or something like that. On the Family, we finally ask the question of why politicians are so greedy and selfish. I know, you've been waiting a long time for it. Rest assured, your day has come at last. We also, on a more serious note, hear Gelfand's thoughts on the passing of Pat Ebertz. He and Pat shared a special connection: being awake very, very late.Stream the show LIVE on the Tom Barnard Show app M-F from 8-12PM or get the show on-demand on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
In today's episode, Gastor and Shalewa talk about smuggling otters on a plane, and the most searched terms on Google. Follow the Team on Social Media Instagram: @WarReportPod @SilkyJumbo @GastorAlmonte Twitter: @SilkyJumbo @GastorAlmonte Theme music "Guns Go Cold" provided by Kno of Knomercyproductions Twitter: @Kno Instagram: @KnoMercyProductions --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/warreportpod/support
Christmas, New Years, Reese's Footballs, Adam and Chris's trip to Atlanta (in Adam's dream), losing bets, Mount Rushmore of basketball officials, the comedy of Nick Mullen.
If you missed the first episode with thoughtbot Incubator Program partcipant and founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, you can go here first (https://www.giantrobots.fm/incubators3e1josh) to catch up. A key focus of Josh's second episode is the importance of user research and customer discovery. Josh stresses that talking to users is crucial, as it grounds the development process in reality. thoughtbot's Director of Product Strategy, Jordyn Bonds, adds that direct engagement with users builds empathy and understanding within the team, making it more effective. They also discuss the challenges of identifying a product's target audience and the importance of iterative customer feedback. Josh and Jordyn highlight the need for founders to be resilient and open to feedback, even when it's negative. Transcript: JOSH: We're live. DAWN: Welcome. Thanks, everyone, for joining. I'm Dawn. I am going to be emceeing today, facilitating, really just asking questions and letting these great people talk. Filling in for Lindsey, who is usually here. Thanks for being here. We're excited to talk to everyone and hear your comments and questions. You might be familiar with thoughtbot. We're a product design and development consultancy. And we like to help people make products or make products better. We are currently in our third incubator session. And today, we're talking to one of two founding teams. And in case you aren't familiar with the incubator, it's an eight-week program that we run with founders. We pair founders up with a product quad from thoughtbot. And we undergo market research, customer discovery, basically market and product validation exercises to help us hone in on a solution, a potential solution for the problem that we're trying to solve, and build a product plan with the founder, basically set them off on a path for success, hopefully, and next steps. Do you want to kick us off, Jordyn? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: Tell the people about yourself. JORDYN: I'm Jordyn. I'm the Director of Product Strategy on Dawn's team. Dawn is my boss. And I sort of run the incubator. I have also founded two startups and been the first head of product at two others, so four early-stage startups. JOSH: I'm Josh. I am the founder part of this who is working with the thoughtbot incubator. I founded a startup. I wasn't very good at it. I was very lucky at it. I was head of product at a whole series of other startups. And I enjoy that a lot. A few folks have asked me why I wanted to join the thoughtbot incubator if I've done this before. I'm, like, moderately techie for a non-technical person. And I coach other founders in doing the sorts of things that Jordyn and her team are coaching me on. So, I'm doing this thing for a few reasons. One is being a founder is really, really lonely. But the other one is that there's just a huge value in bringing together the diverse set of perspectives. And we're doing that with a company that's really good at getting complicated things out the door, having them be successful through a focus on who the end user is. It kind of felt like a no-brainer because I felt like—and we talked about this last week—I had the Josh problem that I wanted there to be a solution to. And trying to figure out, is there a larger opportunity that this represents? DAWN: Thanks. Well, you cued us up well for the topic, at least that we're going to start with today, which is user research or customer discovery. I think it probably goes by several names. That's another interesting topic we [laughs] could get into. But what is this user research that you're doing? Why is it important? What's it doing for this team at this stage? JOSH: One of the founders I work with asked me a couple of months ago, "Just remind me again, what are the things I have to do to build a product?" And I'm like, "It's actually really easy," right? My, like, standing on one foot advice is talk to users, mostly customers. Bring your engineers along when you can. And if you do those things, mostly everything will work out. But I think it's actually, like, there's some subtlety in all of those things, right? It's not that talking to users or customers is going to solve all of your problems. It's just that you're not going to make any progress in the absence of doing that, right? Because then you're just talking to yourself. And I don't know about everybody else here in this group or who might be listening, but it's really easy to get yourself all spun up inside of your head if you're only talking to yourself. Users are the ones who ground you, right? And ultimately, users are the ones who could turn to customers. So, why customers, right? As the people you really want to be talking to. Now, we don't have any customers yet, so we can't do that. But you know something about customers more than anybody else, and that's they're willing to pay for the thing, for the problem you're trying to solve. They could be paying in money. They could be paying in time. They could be paying in reputation. Oftentimes, they'll be paying in all three of those things or two out of three of those things. But they have an expressed willingness to pay. And that's really the magic of, like, having a product and having those conversations. Now, why do you bring along your engineers? It's because the most effective tech companies...and I think thoughtbot is maybe unusual in design-build firms in really internalizing this, but the most successful tech companies are the ones where the entire organization is aligned around understanding who is our market? Who is our customer? What is their problem, and what does it take to solve that problem for them? And too often, all that stuff is, like, stuck inside of the founder's head, or the sales team's head, or the marketing team's head, or the product manager's head, or little bits of stories are stuck other places. But when we're all listening to the same conversations, that's when it's most effective to build alignment around who's the customer? What are their needs? What would they pay for? JORDYN: I agree. And I would add some detail there that why does it work like that? How does having everyone at the organization talk to users and customers build that alignment? And it's one of those things that's kind of, like, it has to be seen to be believed in a certain way. But, like, you can break it down. You know, we can all sit in a room and argue about what reality looks like out there. But it's a lot more efficient if we're all living in that reality together. There's a lot less bringing everyone along. If you've got skeptics on your team, and I hope that you do because they're very useful people, they want to hear it from the source. So, great, go have them hear it from the source. And there's nothing that's more motivating as an engineer, having been an engineer, than seeing someone live fail to achieve their goal in the piece of software you're working on. You will turn around and go fix that bug right then. A bug that has maybe been sitting at the top of the backlog for, like, six weeks or six months, when you see someone struggling with it [laughs] in action, you'll be like, oh, I see. Okay, this is actually causing a lot of angst out there, and I... So, anyway, building that empathy, it's always easiest to build it directly. And it's harder if I am here and if I'm having to triangulate empathy through someone else. Like, if only one person on your team is talking to users and listening to users, and then they come back to the team, and they're like, "Here's what I'm hearing," maybe the team believes you. Maybe they hear the same things out of your mouth that they would have heard directly out of the user, but probably not [laughs]. So, it sounds less efficient. People resist it because it feels intuitively, I think, to a lot of people like a waste of time to have engineers doing user interviews or having anyone else. There's a lot of pushback at organizations for doing this for different reasons. If you're doing, like, an enterprise SaaS thing, sales might really not want anyone else talking to customers because they worry it's going to erode that relationship that they feel like they have. Nothing could be further from the truth in my experience. Customers feel valued. The more people on your team they talk to, the more they are listened to, the more they are taken seriously, and, like, have people engaging with them, that only bolsters your relationship with them, not the opposite. But either way, it's just much more efficient when everyone is hearing the thing from the people it's impacting directly. I get that that does not intuitively feel true, but I assure you that it is true. DAWN: So, -- JOSH: And even more so at this stage where our experience as designers or engineers is much less important than our experience as team members who are trying to find who is that initial audience going to be who is so motivated they will let us build a product for them? DAWN: That's exactly what my follow-up question was related to, which is there's this sort of perception that you sort of stay in your lane, right? With the different roles that you occupy [laughs] in an organization, whether it's early stage or later stage. And even for people who are participating in that customer discovery, you kind of want to, like, ask questions that are most relevant to your role. So, how do you, like, prepare teams or, you know, offer guidance to teams to help them sort of get into the right mindset going into those conversations, not so that they execute it perfectly because they have to have some UX design background, but so that you can learn the important things? JOSH: I think it is totally natural for someone to feel unprepared coming into these, but that's okay, right? Their job is to develop this as a skill, and the only way they're going to do that is by actually doing it. I am certain there were people on the thoughtbot team who felt uncomfortable doing this for the first time, talking to somebody who wasn't even a user, a rando who Josh found on the internet who was willing to chat and go talk to them. And I know they got better at it because I get to watch everybody's interview recordings, and I get to watch the notes they're taking. And I get to watch my own. And we have, like, a team of five of us who, like, are all getting better at this, and that's good. These things are skills, and you got to practice them, which, putting on my friends of thoughtbot hat, is, I think, one of the reasons why thoughtbot likes to do these things because it's a chance to develop these skills in a really intense way, which we may not otherwise get to. And it's a thing that, you know, as a founder, I want everybody on my team to be getting good at as quickly as possible. So, sure, prep work. You read a book. It's like baking a cake, right? You know, you can read cookbooks. You can walk up and down the aisle at the supermarket, right? You can go to the bakery and try other people's cakes, but until your arms are deep in flour, butter, and sugar, like, you've no idea what you're really talking about. And I just want to get people making a mess in the kitchen as fast as possible. Nothing bad happens if you have a bad interview. Lots of bad things happen if you never interview. That's my very strong opinion. JORDYN: I share the opinion and its intensity. That is exactly how I would have answered. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: There's no substitute for doing the thing. And you can spend your whole life feeling like you're not ready to do the thing. You're not going to learn and get better at it until you just start doing it. It's like...and, Josh, you are right. That is partly what this incubator is for, both internally and externally. One of the main differentiators of what we're doing here with this incubator from other incubator programs out there is we get into the kitchen with you and get our arms and elbow deep in flour with you so that we can help founders, not necessarily Josh who has brought some skills into this with him, but, like, so that you know what it feels like to do the thing. There's a lot of content out there about how to start a company, how to do customer discovery, all this stuff, and you can read all of that stuff. You can also listen to people talk about it all the livelong day. There are tons of people out there who do this all the time. They are on podcasts. They are here on this live stream. That's cool [laughs]. Like, listen to them. But really, there's no substitute for you getting out there and talking to people. And this, I just cannot stress this, like, so many people...given my role here and what I do, people often bring their startup ideas to me. People at thoughtbot, people outside of thoughtbot they say, "I have this idea." I ask, "Who is it for?" They tell me. I say, "Have you talked to those people?" and they say, "I'm not ready to start talking to people yet." And I'm like, "That is incorrect. You're talking to me. The only way you're going to get to a thing is if you start talking to people, like, yesterday." And they resist. "Well, I still need to figure out." And I'm like, "No, you don't need [laughs] to figure anything out." If you're going to build something for someone, go engage with them, learn what their life is like, what their work is like today. Hello, people listening to this, do this today. JOSH: Jordyn talks a lot about the emotional labor of being a founder, and I think it's really important. Like, hey, founders out there who hear this and they feel a bit overwhelmed, that's okay, right? The thing which you're going to learn how to do as a founder is talk to people about the thing you're trying to do and have people give you feedback you don't like, and it's not fun. You know, I work with a lot of very technical founders, and it's amazing the things people will do to avoid that. They will take their savings, their retirement money out of the bank and plow it into design-build firms. They will quit their jobs to build this thing themselves just to avoid having that potentially unpleasant conversation. So, potential founders, if you want to prepare yourself for being a successful founder or even a mediocre founder, the thing which you need to do is [laughs] improve your frustration tolerance. Get really good at people telling you your idea is bad, or your process is bad, or something else is bad. And maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong, and it doesn't matter. But you got to be able to tolerate that. JORDYN: Yes, you have to be able to tolerate that. And you have to be able to actually, like, listen for the relevant feedback that's buried in there. So, the founder Josh just described was me, P.S. JOSH: [laughs] JORDYN: The first time. JOSH: Not just you. JORDYN: And not just me, not merely me, but it was me. You know, technical background definitely plowed my meager savings—because I'd already been working in startups, which does not pay well, newsflash [laughs]. I don't know if any of you know this; they don't pay well—into a product that I hadn't really spoken to very many people about. But I knew that I needed to start talking about it with people, but I didn't know how to do that well. That's okay. So, I started talking to people about it after the fact. I should have done this sooner. That's cool. My first company was this product called TallyLab. Like, you can think of it like a data diary app. Basically, it's a place you can go and collect small data to kind of figure out, like, if you think you have a food allergy. Think of it like a food allergy notebook but a digital app for it. I think that when the moon is full, and I eat over a pint of strawberries, I get a stomach ache, whatever it is. So, you need to track the cycles of the moon and how much strawberries you ate and when, and then you can do this analysis. Anyway, if you're thinking to yourself, that doesn't sound like a business, you are correct. Anyway [laughs], I was describing this to my friend's dad. My friend had just had her first kid. I was over meeting this baby. Her dad was there. And he was just like, "What do you do?" And I was like, "Oh, I have a startup." He's like, "What's your startup do?" And I told him. And he was like, "Sounds like you're just feeding people's OCD to me." Like, I felt physical pain at that reaction to this. Like, he was like not only...his tone was so derisive [laughs]. But, like, there was information for me in that. First of all, I needed to think about who is this guy. Where is he coming from? Does this have anything to do with his life at all? Should I even listen to this? In fact, maybe he's, like, my anti-ideal customer. And this feedback is great for me because it means my ideal customer is a good fit, whatever. There's information in there, right? But this was some of the first feedback I was getting on this from someone in the wild [laughs]. So, I had to dig that dagger right out of my heart. So, it's going to happen. It's going to happen, but you got to, like, steel yourself for it, like Josh says. And you also find a way to respond to it with curiosity. So, if I could go back in time to that conversation...I just changed the subject immediately, I think, at the time. I was like, "Cool. Let's talk about something else [laughs]." What I should have done is been like, "Tell me more. Why does it strike you like that? Tell me more about this problem in your life," right? That was an opportunity for me to have a customer interview, and I just totally whiffed it [laughs]. DAWN: Hopefully, it didn't harm your relationship with your friend [laughs]. JORDYN: Not at all. Not at all. I think she felt somewhat aghast. She was like, "Dad, lay off." [laughs] JOSH: Which is actually the other lesson to take from this, which is these things all feel really important and personal and, like, present to you as the founder. Nobody else gives a shit. JORDYN: No. And this was a lesson for me. I at least didn't have that problem because I had been in a series of touring rock bands, and I had learned over and over again how little anything I was doing mattered to anyone. Like, you know, you get to the point where, like, you walk offstage, and you're like, "That was the worst set we ever played." No one knows that. No one cares. They were, like, talking to their girlfriend at the bar the whole time, like, whatever, man [laughs]. Like, whatever is going on with you, you as a human are maybe this big in their purview. What you're doing professionally is even smaller. So, like, don't sweat it. They're not going to be thinking about it again, ever [laughs]. DAWN: That's the thing. Maybe your startup idea doesn't matter, but you matter. Everyone here matters. Okay? JORDYN: Yes. DAWN: So, I want to go back to the users or the particular customers in this case. Have there been any surprises? Have there been any daggers out there or any delights? What have you been learning? JOSH: Last time we were speaking, we were basically talking to a convenient sample of people who, let's be honest, look a lot like Jordyn and myself, right? They are people in mostly U.S. tech companies, mostly early-stage ones, not necessarily programmers, but maybe they found the company. Maybe they work in product management, or they have other kinds of executive roles. Maybe they change their job every couple of years because that's what people in tech companies do. Maybe they like, you know, they carry around a smartphone. They live out of their smartphone. They care about building a network. They attend in-person things when they can. They're in a bunch of, like, networking Slacks, and WhatsApp groups, and things like that. And they all kind of look the same. And I think the last time we spoke two weeks ago, we were noticing that this thing we were trying to work on was a problem for all of them but not necessarily a problem that they were, on average, investing a whole lot of time and energy into. We recognized this as a group largely because everybody was participating in the conversations and getting better and better at it and getting better and better at kind of, like, pulling out the insights. So, we experimented with a couple of other audiences. And the reminder here is the idea isn't to build a product for one of these audiences; the idea is to build the first version of the product for one of these audiences who feels the need so intensely they're actually going to use the damn thing and give you some feedback. So, the audience has to have a real pain–a willingness to do some work. And we have to be able to find them, so some attribute that allows us to identify where they are. They all hang out at the playground after recess is, like, a good attribute, or they all search for the same kinds of things using the same language or a comparable language on Google, or they all follow the same people on TikTok. They are all examples of audiences that we could somehow identify and address. People who, you know, deep down, are worried that their second-grade teacher didn't like them enough, right? Probably not an addressable audience, even though you can imagine, you know, all sorts of potential problems and potential solutions you can build for those folks. So, we got to find that. So, we've experimented with a few other groups. One is we identified early on in kind of our broader conversations that journalists might have a need for this, journalists or folks that have a broad network, and they check in with those people frequently. And the other one was people who do Biz Dev, or partnerships work at tech companies as well. And we reached out to a bunch of people. And we discovered that both those groups are probably also a little bit too big for us to be focused on. It's not that nobody in those groups had a burning need for the thing that we're trying to do; it's that people in those groups overall didn't. And now we got to go figure out, like, okay, is there, like, a subgroup inside of there that we can identify? Just sports journalists, just investigative journalists, just journalists who don't have a salary who work freelance, just radio journalists, you know, just journalists who went to specific schools. Hard to know what that's going to be, and that's the work that we're doing, like, literally right now. JORDYN: We actually published our methodology for doing this recently. People should go to thoughtbot.com and look at our Playbook, our Customer Discovery Playbook, if you want to know how to do this. It is not black magic or something. Basically, you just think about the dynamics that matter that create a need for the thing that you're contemplating building, and then you just generate giant lists of the people who might need that thing. And guess what? It's going to be totally wrong and weird, and a bunch of different shaped groups of people. It is going to be like people who hang out at the playground and also dog walkers, and just, like, some weird random assortment of personas, individuals, groups of people, but that's where you start. And then you start learning. You take what you know about those people today, and you find the best place to start. And then you start talking to them, and then you learn why they are or are not a good fit, and you keep going through the list. So, it's not mysterious, but it is work. It is hard work. Synthesizing on a team what you're hearing is part of that hard work, but it's really invaluable because everybody, like Josh mentioned earlier, brings something different to the conversation, thinks about it from a different vantage, brings different life experiences. And that is just invaluable to unlocking insights, perspectives, directions to pursue. It really is very much a...I don't know what we would call it. It's like a real...it's the hard work. You go talk to a bunch of people. You get together as a group, and you talk to each other about what you're hearing from all the other people [laughs]. You go back and talk to more people or the same people if you realized you weren't asking them the things that you needed to be asking them. You come back together. And out of that process, the patterns emerge. DAWN: This is also kind of meta, the fact that y'all are doing so much customer discovery with potential customers who their entire work lives [laughs] are managing conversations, both the frequency and timing of that, but also, like, what they're learning from those conversations. So, that's super interesting. It sounds like, obviously, there are still many conversations to be had. But what else is next? I know we're about halfway through the program. So, what are y'all looking into for the next week or two? JOSH: I mean, we don't yet have that audience, which is, I think, a really important part of this and something which I think about all the time as the founder. What does this mean that it's hard to find the audience? Like, what does that tell about the idea, about the opportunity? But I think we've had enough conversations with enough people who have enough similarities in the problems we're trying to solve that I think we're getting good insights into if we knew who would really want this thing; we have some good ideas about how we might be able to help them out. So, we're starting to actually go through the process of, you know, the really early sketches, the wireframes. And what might a solution look like? Which I think is doing two things, right? One, it helps us to sharpen our thinking a fair amount, right? There's, like, a thing which we can react to as a group, which is not as amorphous as an interview. Like, a sharp, pointy thing we can react to. The second is we're going to start showing this to people. And not everybody we talk to is going to be, like, our final audience we're building for. That's okay. They can still, like, give us thoughts and give us feedback. And it'll probably change the tenor of the conversations we're having with them. And that's also okay, too, right? We're going to learn different kinds of things than we would in the absence of this. JORDYN: Yeah. And that is super exciting. And then the other side of that coin becomes feasibility questions. So, this thing that we're imagining, how would we build it? Can we build it? What do we need in order to build it? And so, those conversations are really starting to fire up as we start to imagine a solution. DAWN: I know there's a really awesome blog post to come from Jordyn that I reviewed [inaudible 22:27] JORDYN: Wow. Public nudging. DAWN: [laughs] JORDYN: I'm late with this blog post, and I'm being publicly nudged. This is so intense; you're right. DAWN: [laughs] But it's so relevant to exactly what y'all have been talking about. JORDYN: I know. I know. [laughs] DAWN: So, [crosstalk 22:40] retroactively point everyone to it. It's really good stuff. JORDYN: How would you state the problem, Josh, if anyone out there has the problem? JOSH: The problem we're looking at is people who have a hard time managing their social network in general but their professional social network in particular. You know, that might be, you know there's people you wish you were keeping in touch with, but you just forget to keep in touch with them. Or, you know, you tell somebody to do something in some thread, or some channel, on some social network, or some direct message, and you just kind of forget about that because you don't go back to it. Or maybe, you know, you're making friends on Discord. You're making friends on Slack. You're making friends out in the real world, but you don't actually, like, add them into your LinkedIn, something like that. Somebody who's having problems like that that's actually done something about it. Did you go and build yourself, like, a spreadsheet? A baby CRM in Notion, or in Coda, or in Airtable? Do you search out a purpose-built tool? You know, if you think you've ever tried, whether you've been successful or not, to actually solve this problem for yourself, I'd love to talk to you, or Jordyn would love to talk to you. Dawn would probably love to talk to you also. But reach out to any of us any way you can. I got a super Googleable SEO-compatible name, as does Jordyn. So, like, reach out to one of us, and we'd love to chat. DAWN: Awesome. Well, thanks, y'all. This has been wonderful, as always. And if anybody has questions for the team, feel free to comment on the post afterwards. And we'll see y'all next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.
This episode, Eamon & Merlin talk the season premiere of Real Housewives of Potomac, where Robyn indulges us in her delusions and Juan makes it clear that he's just a nice guy. Also, the newest episode of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City where a calming sound bath is not enough to subdue Lisa's rage for Monica. Then, they talk Real Housewives of Beverly Hills as the Vegas trip turns sour for Sutton and her ugly white pants. And finally, Real Housewives of Miami where Guerdy reveals to the girls her cancer diagnosis, and attempts to do the same with Larsa if she could get a word in. We are Eamon and Merlin, a queer married couple from Texas living in Pittsburgh, PA. We love reality television, wrestling, drag queens, and pretty much anything that can be called even kinda gay. A Gay & His Enby is a podcast where we talk about everything we love in terms of media and pop culture; everything thats gay and gay adjacent; basically all the conversations we have in our living room we are now putting in front of a microphone and on the internet for you. We have launched our MERCH STORE! We are so excited to bring you these designs, all made by Merlin, commemorating some of our favorite iconic moments! Shop now at https://AGayAndHisEnby.Threadless.com Every week, we have the pleasure and privilege of recording from Sorgatron Media Studios in Pittsburgh. Our theme song is Pulsar by Shane Ivers which you can find at https://www.silvermansound.com All of our social media can be found at our linktree: https://linktr.ee/agayandhisenby In recent years, states have pushed forward a record number of bills that attack LGBTQ rights, especially transgender youth. The current obession with Drag Queens is no exception. This is a thinly veiled attempt to outlaw gender expressions that do not fall within the cisheteronormative guidelines. Please consider donating to one of the following charities to help make the US a safer place for Queer folks to live in peace. American Civil Liberties Union (https://www.aclu.org/issues/lgbtq-rights) Trevor Project (https://give.thetrevorproject.org/give/63307/#!/donation/checkout) PFLAG (https://pflag.org/donate/) True Colors United (https://my.truecolorsunited.org/give/107399/#!/donation/checkout) OutRight International (https://outrightinternational.org/take-action/give) Lambda Legal (https://support.lambdalegal.org/site/Donation2;jsessionid=00000000.app30130a?df_id=6680&mfc_pref=T&6680.donation=form1&NONCE_TOKEN=D3311163DF16F06EEA5520010BAF90B5) GLBTQ Legal Advocates & Defenders (https://donate.glad.org/give/123741/#!/donation/checkout?c_src=webheader) Human Rights Campaign (https://give.hrc.org/page/118560/donate/1?ea.tracking.id=or_gnr_hrc_homepage2022) It Gets Better Project (https://give.itgetsbetter.org/give/250737/#!/donation/checkout)
thoughtbot's Incubator Program is back for a third round! This episode introduces founder Josh Herzig-Marks of Knect, and he will be sharing his journey from freelance work to joining the program and what happens throughout! So far, he appreciates the deliberate communication practices required for practical remote work, despite remote work already being second nature to him, and he understands the importance of proactive and transparent communication in a team setting. One critical insight for Josh so far was the misconception surrounding the term "CRM" in personal relationship management. His moment involved mislabeling a survey, which led to confusion about the project's intent. As the Incubator Program progresses and continues to scale, Jordyn expresses excitement about involving more teams with different geographic focuses. The goal is to foster a collaborative environment within the thoughtbot Incubator Slack channel, encouraging past and present participants to share experiences and advice. We invite listeners who resonate with any of the challenges heard or have potential solutions to reach out! Our next Incubator episode will introduce our other Session 3 participants, Mike and Chris, founders of Goodz. Follow Josh Herzig-Marx on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuaherzigmarx/) or X (https://twitter.com/herzigma). Visit his website at joshua.herzig-marx.com (https://joshua.herzig-marx.com/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: LINDSEY: My name is Lindsey Christensen, and I head up marketing for thoughtbot. For anyone listening or joining who isn't familiar with thoughtbot, we're a product design and development consultancy that helps you make great products and help make your team a success. One of the very cool ways we do that is with the thoughtbot Startup Incubator, which is a program that we launched this year and that Jordyn, who's with us today, has been heading up. What's up, Jordyn? And today, what we're going to be doing is catching up with one of the latest founders who's participating in the incubator and seeing what he's been up to since the kickoff over these last two weeks. JOSH: It's been two weeks. It's been two really fast weeks. LINDSEY: [laughs] Josh, could you give us a little introduction to yourself? JOSH: Sure. I'm Josh. Hi. I've been in tech product management for, like, 20-ish years, 15 or so of those were in head-of-product roles. And a bunch of those early on were my own startup, where I discovered I was a pretty mediocre founder but really liked this product leadership thing. I had a very lucky exit, which I leveraged into a series of first product manager, first head of product, first product leader roles at a series of early-stage companies across a ton of domains: B2B, B2C, FinTech, mobile, Revtech. And then, a little over a year ago, my partner and I got to do this thing we've been talking about for a while, which was we swapped who the primary parent was. We have two kids, two teens, 13 and 15, right now, so that's eighth grade and ninth grade. I wanted to take over primary parenting so that they could focus as much or as little on their career as they wanted to in the same way they had allowed me to do for the first 15-ish years of our kids being kids. And if I were a better person, I would have found some kind of job that allowed for work-life balance, but I'm not. I have a whopping case of ADD, which we'll probably come back to later on in this conversation. And the way that I knew I'd be able to actually fulfill my responsibility as a primary parent was by retiring from salaried work. So, I did that a little over a year ago, last summer. And kind of keep me busy and occupied in between 8:30 in the morning, you know, school drop off and 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon school pickup. And when I'm not doing shopping, and cooking, and lunches, and doctor's appointments, and dentist appointments, and orthodontist appointments, and play dates, and soccer practices, and basketball practices, and soccer games, and basketball games, and Bar and Bat Mitzvahs, and all the other things that we do, I built a very small niche coaching mentorship and advisory practice around founders, solo product managers, and first-time heads of product. And that's pretty much up until about two weeks ago what I had been doing with myself. LINDSEY: That's a great update. I especially liked all the practices that you have to go to. [crosstalk 02:54] JOSH: I do like practices. We went to a co-ed soccer game for my middle school kid. And it was the first time that the boys' team and the girls' team ever played together, and they got totally clobbered by this other team. And what I loved about it at the end was the kids weren't bummed. They were like, "That was really fun." And, you know, for a lot of these kids, they've been friends since kindergarten. So, this is, like, nine years of being friends and playing recess soccer together. And they're not very good at soccer, but they just really love all playing together so much. And they just bring so much sportspersonship to the field. It was really a pleasure. LINDSEY: Okay. So, you're doing all this fun primary parenting and going to all the fun practices. You've got a coaching business that you're working on as well. But there was this idea, this idea that's needling. What brings you to us? JOSH: I think before it was an idea, it was a problem. And I knew this was a Josh problem. And the Josh problem was that I have a really big network, you know, built over the past, you know, more than 20 years of professional life. And, you know, one of the joke lines I have is that the solution to almost any business problem is found in talking to more people. I really value being able to, you know, call people up, message them, text them, email them, get together with them, ask them lots of questions, listen hard. And I try really hard to reciprocate, doing the same thing. I don't know what your professional network looks like, Lindsey or Jordyn, over the past, I don't know, couple years, decade, however long it's been, you know. But what used to be email and LinkedIn, maybe, and maybe getting together in some local meetups, has really spiraled what, to me, feels, again, whopping case of ADD, completely out of control, right? I have my LinkedIn network, which has not gone away, right? And now I'm a member of, I don't know, Jordyn, we share these a lot, a dozen different professional networking Slacks. Those are the ones that Jordyn and I share, probably far, far more than that, right? Product management ones, entrepreneurship ones, product marketing ones, engineering ones, tech company ones, ones geographically based for the Boston area, ones that are focused on things like climate change and climate tech. So, a ridiculous number of these. And as somebody with some experience and the privilege to have some free time, it feels kind of like, I don't know, an obligation sounds too grandiose, but it feels like a nice way that I can give back is by participating and trying to be helpful inside of these. So, that's happened. And Discord became a thing, you know, certainly, it had been a thing for gamers since before that. But since the beginning of the pandemic, Discord became a thing. I'm in, like, I don't know, a dozen different similar Discord groups. And I'm in WhatsApp communities, and I'm in Telegram communities. And in-person meetups have started to happen again. And I found myself kind of losing control. I was telling people, whether, you know, over the phone, or in Zoom calls, or direct messages, that I'd make connections to them, make intros, and it was getting increasingly hard to do that. I was forgetting about people, you know, like, it's hard to remember to stay in touch with all of your colleagues when you move on from past roles. And, you know, I would try to make connections to people to be like, okay, Lindsey, you know, you wanted to meet somebody else in marketing in the Boston area. And I remember that, like, six years ago, they worked at Rocket, and now they've moved on to something else. I can't remember what it's called. And, like, how do you, like, you know, page through your email and your Slack connections and your LinkedIn to find that person? And that was really hard, too. So, I have ADD. My family would say that I'm, like, moderately functional. So, how do I achieve that? By creating systems for myself. And I did all the things which other people have tried to do. I built myself, like spreadsheets and Notion databases. I have an awful lot of, like, Notion databases now powered by forms. I'm like, just put your information in, and it'll appear magically into my database where I try to, you know, push the work onto other people. And none of it was really working for me. And that was kind of the genesis of the idea and then trying to figure out, is this a Josh problem, or is this a broader problem? That's kind of how I got started. LINDSEY: Lots of people, lots of channels, not a lot of tracking or confusing tracking. And we chatted briefly before, you know, you were starting the program. And this really resonated for me. And I also ended up doing a user interview [chuckles] with the team about it. JOSH: Yeah [laughs]. LINDSEY: Because yeah, in my role, and moving from different companies or doing mentoring on the side, and being in investor communities and marketing communities, it gets overwhelming for sure. And I feel the pain. And I've had the embarrassing moments of not remembering how I know someone or a conversation we had, or someone I really respect asking me for an intro, and I'm like, I don't remember anything about how I know that person. JOSH: I mean, that was both gratifying and disappointing. Gratifying, like, oh, it's not just a Josh problem; we all struggle with this, and disappointing, right? And as I've had more of these conversations, just to realize, like, I know almost nobody who doesn't struggle with this. There's a few. There's a few outliers, a few weirdos, a few superheroes who are able to do this really well and who feel in control. And, like, literally, as they describe it, it sounds like...Jordyn, you're nodding, right? It sounds like a superpower as they're describing how they do this, how they kind of manage it. JORDYN: [laughs] JOSH: But for the most part, thank goodness it's not a Josh problem. The bummer is, nobody has, like, you know, the magic incantation, right? The spell or the secret or, like, the one weird trick, or the tool or, like, could I just give you money and solve this thing? And none of this really exists today. And that was kind of a bummer. I was hoping for, you know, better news that this was a solved problem. LINDSEY: [laughs] Yeah. Jordyn, heading over to you for a minute, Josh applied for the incubator with this problem that he was working on. We had a lot of great applications, I think, for this session. What made you think or you and the team land on Josh as one of our session three founders that would be a great fit for the programming? JORDYN: I'd say it was probably two factors; one is the stage. What's really tough was figuring out who's a good stage fit for us. So, like, what that means is you've identified a specific enough problem. You're not just, like, I want to solve world hunger or something, like, super broad. There's enough of a specific pain point or a problem that you're trying to solve that there's, like, we might conceivably make progress on it in eight weeks. But you're not so far along that you are basically like, "Hey, I've got the specs for an MVP. Can you just build it?" Which is, like, too late for us. And part of that is a discovery mindset of, "Hey, I've identified this pain point. I think other people have it. But I am very open to how we solve the problem or learning new things about it, learning that it is a bigger need in a market I've never thought about," like being open to the things we might learn together. So those things: stage fit, mindset fit. But, also, like, it is a problem that is addressable with software, right? thoughtbot's focus is software. Like, yes, we have worked on products that are not software products, but, like, our bread and butter is software. And my personal bread and butter professionally is software. So, is the problem on the table something that, you know, software is a big component in meeting the need? So, it's, you know, it's stage. So, I guess it's three things: stage, founder mindset, which is this combination of having conviction but being open-minded, a very weird [laughs] thing to find in a person. And then, you know, can we conceive of a way to address this with software without jumping to a solutionizing? That's sort of what we're looking for, and Josh checked all of those boxes. And I think, also, just had a problem that people really resonated [laughs] with, which is clear from [laughs] what Lindsey was saying and for me personally as well, I think I should [laughter] say. This is a problem I have. So, when Josh and I first talked about it, I was just like, yes, I would love to solve this problem. I also wish there was some spell, or incantation, or weird trick, or existing products, et cetera. JOSH: We might have spent an hour nerding out over all of the things that we've tried, yeah. JORDYN: The things that we've tried, emphasis on the nerding. JOSH: On the nerding part, yeah. JORDYN: Any of you listening [crosstalk 10:45] JOSH: Or what if we get sneakier connect Google Sheets to this, like, really weird web query and [laughs] -- JORDYN: [laughs] Exactly. And then giving up because it's totally unmaintainable or, like, [laughter] impossible, yeah. So... JOSH: Right. Oh, and it's all crap, too [laughs]. JORDYN: Right, right. So, if anyone out there listening is like, "Oh yeah, that's me," first of all, you're not alone. Second of all, please reach out to us. We would like to interview you [crosstalk 11:09] JOSH: Or, if anyone out there is like, "Oh, I have this thing solved," right? If you got the solution, please reach out to us. JORDYN: [laughs] Yes, also, please. JOSH: You can save us six more weeks of work [laughs]. JORDYN: If you know the solution, definitely tell us. Anyway, so to your question, though, Lindsey, that's how this [inaudible 11:23], and it just seemed like a great fit along those lines. LINDSEY: Yeah. So but, Josh, you mentioned...well, I think you kind of downplayed your founder history a little bit. But you've been a founder who had success, certainly a product team leader who has been very successful in the early-stage teams. What were you looking for from thoughtbot? Like, what attracted you to working with the thoughtbot team on your problem when you have all this kind of past experience already? JOSH: I think there's probably three parts to it; one is I know a bunch of people in the thoughtbot team pretty well. In past roles, I have actually hired thoughtbot; I think it was twice. And I've referred a bunch of your current and past clients as well. Like, I'm just generally a big thoughtbot fan. I think I've even used thoughtbot products long before I even knew, like, Chad or Jordyn, some of your old products from, like, you know, the early 2000s. So, we're going really OG here. So, I knew thoughtbot really well and think really highly of everybody who I've interacted with there. Number two is, I know, you say incubator, but, for me, the word that's really been resonating has been accelerator. It can be really slow the early, I don't know, weeks, months, years to go from an idea to, hey, this is really an opportunity. And I didn't want to spend weeks or years at this. I have a full-time job. It's, you know, taking care of the family. Like, that's what I wanted to be focused on. And if this was really an opportunity, I wanted to figure this out relatively quickly. And I love the fact that thoughtbot has this eight-week accelerating program. And the third one is I had this...and, you know, not every assumption I came in with was one that I'm going to leave the program with. But I came in with the assumption that a lot of the risk was technology risk. I had a rough idea. I was quickly discovering this wasn't just a Josh problem; this was a broader problem, right? There's plenty of challenges beyond that, but it's good to discover that your problem is broad. But is it something which can actually get built and built relatively straightforward? Jordyn here [inaudible 13:27] this all the time. You know, I don't like science project problems, right? And thoughtbot is really, really good at building software and partnering with somebody who could help to remove that kind of risk as a non-technical founder, as somebody with literally zero technical skills, I find that very, I don't know, comforting, exciting. LINDSEY: Okay, writes down in marketing notebook: "Accelerator resonating more than incubator." [laughs] JOSH: I wanted to get to the decision...incubator is a better word for it. But I personally wanted to get to that is this a good opportunity or a bad opportunity decision faster. LINDSEY: To quickly validate invalidate. JOSH: Right. I wanted this, like, I wanted to timebox this thing, and eight weeks is a nice chunk of time. LINDSEY: Love that, yeah. JORDYN: I want to just, like, flag here that, like, all of these words are very frustrating [laughter]. And we had a really hard time picking one. LINDSEY: I know [laughs]. JORDYN: And we really actually, like, in literal terms, I think that program is way more, like, founder bootcamp than anything, but thoughtbot can't run a bootcamp without people thinking it's a Rails bootcamp, right? JOSH: Yeah. LINDSEY: [laughs] JORDYN: Like, if we just said, "thoughtbot bootcamp," people would be like, oh, as a developer, I should go to this bootcamp, and thoughtbot will teach me how to be a better engineer, which would be totally reasonable from a brand standpoint, right? So, we were like, all right, not bootcamp. And then accelerator typically comes with investment dollars, in my experience as a founder, and we don't invest cash in the companies that we work with yet. So, that was off the list. And that just left incubator, which, eh, like, I don't disagree that it's not the best word, but, whatever, we lack a good one. JOSH: I'll tell you one thing. So, I'm involved with other things in this space. I'm based in Boston but for Raleigh's brand-new Founder Institute chapter, which I think is a great program. And I'm really proud of the, you know, first cohort of founders that are going to the program down there. And I love them. And I love their energy, and enthusiasm, and focus and that we at Founder Institute are providing them with value. I think we really are, or I wouldn't be participating. But I wanted people to work alongside me. And I think that's actually one of the things which is really unique about thoughtbot's program. This isn't, like, you know, a bunch of other founders with varying amounts of experience working alongside you. This is, like, actual people who do things: designers and software engineers, developers who are working alongside you and learning alongside you. But it makes it, I would say, less of a lonely process. This is one of the things I remember. When I founded a company, the one time I did this prior, I did it with my best friend, which is about as unlonely as you can possibly get. And it still is really, really lonely. Having this like, you know, team backing you up and a company backing up that team and organization is nice. LINDSEY: Thanks for sharing that about the loneliness factor. That kind of reminds me, Jordyn; I know in the last session, you were trying out the idea of, like, this founder emotion tracker. Has that made its way to session 3? JORDYN: Not really, mostly because both of the teams we're working with, two teams, by the way, not just Josh, have been founders before. And so, the emotional rollercoaster of, like, literally every day, you know, Monday, you feel like a million bucks because you have a really great idea, and you're really excited about it. And then, Tuesday, you talk to a bunch of people who add some complexity to the assumptions that you had [laughs] made on Monday. And then you start to feel like maybe this isn't a thing, oh no. And then, Wednesday, you learn about some, like, technical thing that you didn't realize was a stumbling block. And so, by the end of Wednesday, you're like, everything is doomed. I shouldn't even be doing this. I've just wasted everyone's time. But then the team wakes up on Thursday and is like, "Actually, there's an easy solution to this. And we've found a new group of people to talk to who have this problem in a really clear way." And then you feel like a million bucks again. And then you just cycle through it. Like, that cycle is something that Josh and our other founding team have actually felt before. And so, we haven't really been, like, leaning on the emotional roller coaster timeline as much just because it hasn't been as relevant. And that's kind of what's tough about the program we're running, which is that everybody comes to it with different assets in hand. I always think of that scene in The Princess Bride when they're outside the castle, and Westley is like, "What do we have? What are our assets?" It's like you arrive to this with different assets in hand. You might have already talked to 50 people, but you have no technical background. So, you don't know what on earth to do about the information that you've learned. Or, you know, maybe you do have a technical background. And so, you've done a bunch of solutionizing, but you haven't talked to a single person about [laughs] whether they have the problem you're trying to solve. Anyway, it really runs the gamut. And so, the programming is designed to help teams find focus and find market message fit. But what people roll up with is very different. In this case, we have a cohort, so to speak, that has some prior startup experience, especially as founders. And so, they know a little bit more about how every day is going to emotionally feel different. And that emotional rollercoaster workstream is on the roadmap. But we don't spend as much time with it as we did with Ashley and with Agnes before in the first two sessions because they were first-time founders and really didn't know how they should be feeling. And that, to me, is one of the many value adds, including what Josh mentioned, like just having a team diligently focused on your problem space full-time is a huge boost of momentum and confidence. Just, like, people thinking about the same thing you're thinking about with you and bringing their earnest efforts to solving the problem has been one of the main things people have found valuable about it, in addition to the acknowledgement that, like, you're going to have a lot of different emotions. And it doesn't mean anything necessarily. Like, your day-to-day emotion does not mean that you are a failure or that this is a bad idea or that you're a success, and this is a good idea [laughs]. Like, neither of those things is necessarily true. LINDSEY: So, let's chat a little bit about what has actually been happening since kickoff. So, two weeks ago, started. Jordyn, maybe I'll start with you. What has the first two weeks of programming looked like? JORDYN: We have been really heads down on interviewing. Josh rolled up having done a survey, which yielded a bunch of conversations already, conversations [inaudible 19:34]. So, we iterated on the scripts. You know, part of the efforts of the first couple of weeks are really geared toward having our team understand the things that Josh understands already. We need to kind of get on the same page. And so, we try to talk to as many people as we can because there's nothing...One of our theses here, beliefs, I don't know what the right word is, is that there's really nothing that drives momentum quite like team alignment, and there's nothing quite like talking to customers and hearing for yourself what their pain points are. That drives alignment. So, it's like, everyone's talking to people. I'm sure people out there have been on teams where it's like one person talks to customers, and they're translating to everybody else. "Here's what I'm hearing. So, this is what we need to build." And it's like if everybody has first-hand experience with the conversations, alignment and conviction sort of grows organically out of it. It's a lot less work to align if everybody's talking to people. So, it's always, like, the first order of business is, how do we talk to people so that we know the things you know to the level that you know them? So, we've been doing a ton of interviewing. And then, that's about driving alignment and understanding, but it's also ultimately about trying to drive focus. So, as we are talking to people and listening to them, we're really trying to listen for patterns and to map those to the market segments these people inhabit. So, like, every one of us has our own network that we're bringing to this effort, and so we start there. And we start where you are with what you have, right? I think that's, like, a Teddy Roosevelt quote: start where you are with what you have. Somebody said that. Anyway, so we all do that. But really, ultimately, we want to...building software is all about a repeatable problem that you can address with a one-size-fits-all [laughs] more or less product. What we're trying to find is, like, we're trying to listen for patterns and listen for pain points that are addressable and really focus in on a narrow niche or a situation context that we can address in some repeatable way. And I would say, at this moment, we've done a bunch of that interviewing. And we're now like, okay, we're feeling the need to focus, but we have not quite started that dive. I don't know, Josh, maybe you feel the same or different. JOSH: No, I think that's right on. I mean, you know, the first thing we all had to do was develop our own [inaudible 21:45] understanding of the problem and the potential user, right? It wasn't going to happen from me talking to people. It was going to happen from us talking to people. And then, the next step is to start to align that empathic understanding, which sounds like a thing that gets finished, but really, it's only a thing that gets started and never really ends. And then, you know, we got to be willing to make some bets, right? We got to figure out, you know, what is our hypothesis? You know, what do we think are the risky bits? And what are the things that differentiate this from being a problem? Where I think we have broad agreement across the entire team. And, literally, everybody we spoke to, the only people who don't think this is a problem are the ones who have some complicated, ridiculous system they built themselves, which they will acknowledge is not going to apply to anybody else. So, the problem is broad, right? But where exactly is the opportunity? Because at the end of the day, we're looking to build a business. LINDSEY: Josh, I saw your head nodding during the alignment discussion. How has it been aligning with the team around the problem you've been thinking so much about? JOSH: I don't know, Jordyn, how you feel about it. I've found it really fun. And it's been fun for a couple of reasons. I think the number one reason that I really like it is this is a really diverse team, right? So, Jordyn and I are in Boston and have; I would say, fairly similar tech company entrepreneurish sort of, you know, hand-wavy, miscellaneous tech people, startup folks background. We have somebody in Denmark, but she's Spanish. We have someone in maybe London right now, but he's Nigerian. And we have a member of our team in Saudi Arabia. That's a lot broader perspective. And I think that comes to play in, like, at least three different ways. They come with their own perspectives, and their own world experiences, and lived experiences, and values, and ways they talk about those things, right? Number one. They come with their own networks of people to talk to you for whom it's easy to reach. So, it's not just all hand-wavy, tech startupy folks like I'd be talking to. And, like, literally, my entire list is, like, oh, they're all people like me. Like it was really easy to get 60 people to want to talk to me because they're all people I've been talking to for a while, which is awesome and maybe a little bit uninteresting. But more than that, they all bring different language. Like, we've been struggling. Like, this is what we did. We spent what? Two hours of our hour and a half meeting this morning struggling with, like, are we having a difference, like, meaning or a difference of words? And it's not an efficient way to use your time, but it really is an effective way to use your time. Because, like, that struggle of trying to communicate what we're hearing and try to communicate what we're thinking and what we're feeling, I think, has led to a much better understanding of the problem and maybe even the opportunity than we would have had otherwise. I'm a big fan of struggle. JORDYN: Definitely. And I do feel like there's an element of this where you can never understand your customers' problems in too much detail. It's like every pass we do at this, we kind of have a deeper, more granular, nuanced sense of the problems. And just in that conversation this morning, we, like, took a problem that we had understood one way and, like, were able to break it down, like, okay, what are the actual pieces of this? Oh, there's, like, many pieces of it, right? Like you said, Josh, it feels inefficient, or sometimes it just feels like you walk out of a call and you're like, what was that about? And then only later do you find, you know, maybe when we are ideating, like, ways we might solve a problem, that conversation we had that felt really murky and, like, are we just arguing about semantics here? Are we arguing [laughs]...I don't know, like, however, you might frame that, like, actually becomes really important where you're like, oh, well, I'm very glad we took the time to break this problem down because now that we're trying to develop a solution, it becomes clear that there are many, little things we're trying to solve. And we can't solve them all at once. And so, it's great that we all have a fluent understanding of the details of that because it makes those conversations much faster so [inaudible 25:30]. JOSH: Can I say a nice thing about thoughtbot? I know this isn't, like, the, you know, [crosstalk 25:34] LINDSEY: Please. Please do. Welcome, Josh. Yeah, the floor is yours. JOSH: Let me say a nice thing about thoughtbot. The last time I did this, I did this with my best friend, Ben, a person I had literally known since I was six years old, maybe five, I don't know, since first grade. And we were entering a new space. This was, like, grocery marketing. And we talked to a crap ton of people, a lot of them doing things like going to grocery store headquarters and just talking to people and meeting people who are, like, manufacturers of a grocery product and going to trade shows with 60,000 grocers all in one giant room. Remember those days pre-COVID? We would, like, you know, take the samples with your left hand and shake with your right hand, and don't get those two things mixed up because there's a lot of people in the room with you. And we talked to easily 1,000 people, and we knew how to establish that, like, shared empathic understanding of the market and the problem really well because we were side by side. We were really well-practiced at having those conversations. And, you know, after the day of, you know, shaking hands, and meeting people, and introducing ourselves was done, we'd go back to the hotel room, shared, of course, because we were young entrepreneurs who couldn't afford to get nice hotel rooms. And we'd spend the next couple of hours, like, talking about it. We, like, talked to each other all the time. One nice thing about thoughtbot is you're really good at working remotely and working asynchronously. And if, you know, it had been up to me by myself to be like, okay, you know, Josh, you have this, like, remote team in different time zones with, you know, non-overlapping hours. How are you going to, like, work together to establish this common understanding, this common semantic model, this common syntax for talking about the problem, and the users, and the needs, and the opportunity? I'd be like, I don't know, right? And this is somebody who's, like, worked remotely for the past, I don't know, 5,6, 7 years, I mean, most of his job. But, like, still, that early bit is a thing, which, you know, I've seen a lot of thoughtbot practice and skill around. And it's not an easy skill to master. And it's one that you practiced organizationally. And that's really valuable. And I don't think I fully appreciated that until we got started. LINDSEY: Oh, thanks. Jordyn, any thoughts on that? Were you thinking about remote setup of the program, or at this point, it's just everything is remote? JORDYN: Working remotely can really deepen, in good ways, one's communication practices because it forces you to be intentional about communicating in a way that when you are co-located with people, you kind of don't have to because there's people in front of you when you talk to them. So, I agree, Josh, that thoughtbot does a good job of making that work, the work to communicate and stay on the same page, like, tangible, visible, whatever it is. That's also just something I've given a ton of thought to because I've been working remotely, like, as a primary orientation since 2010. And so, this is just, like, how I work. And it's very; I don't know, organic to my mind now that it's basically, like, if I'm doing something and I don't tell someone about it, it's like a tree falls in the forest, you know, if there's no one around to hear it. If I'm working on something and I don't tell anyone about it, it's like I didn't do anything. Communication is, like, 60% of the job. And the setpoint is, oh, I did something. Oh, I emailed someone. Maybe I should tell the team about this [laughs]. Just literally because you're not in a situation where I'm going to overhear a phone call that Josh is having because he's at the desk next to mine, or I'm going to, like, ambiently be aware that, like, Carol and Toby went into a conference room to talk about something. Like, while I maybe didn't consciously think about that, it's sort of in my periphery. Like, none of that is happening because we're not in the office together, right? We don't get to do the thing that you did with Ben, where we just talk about stuff because we're near each other. So, you really have to get into this practice of externalizing very proactively the things going on in your own mind with the team. And it's a challenge. It's work. It doesn't just happen effortlessly, right? But yeah, to say it's critical or to say it's a critical piece of how we approach the work is an understatement. I don't know, it's like, it is the work [laughs]. The making of the software, whatever, that's easy [laughs]. Communicating about making software that's hard [laughs]. So, I don't know, it's very heartening -- LINDSEY: Yeah, that makes sense. JORDYN: To hear, Josh, that you think that we do a good job of that. I think we're constantly trying to do a better job of it, frankly. I don't know if you can do [crosstalk 29:28] JOSH: That's probably why you do a good job. LINDSEY: So, I know a lot of the early weeks, days has been around alignment and doing a lot of these user interviews. Have there been any moments yet, Josh, any new, like, light bulbs for you or insights, or are we not quite there yet; it's more kind of setting the scene? JOSH: I'll share one really embarrassing one. LINDSEY: Oooh. JOSH: Which keeps on coming back to bite me. When I sent out the survey and, of course, I [inaudible 29:57] for everybody listening, basically, surveys are useless, except they're really nice lead generation tools for people who are willing to talk to you. But when we sent out the survey, at the top, it says something like, "Personal CRM survey." And I'm pretty sure that when I set up the calendar invite system, which is, by the way, for folks listening out there, like, you want to get your, like, operational side of this thing done before you start sending emails out because you're going to quickly, like, lose the ability to keep track of stuff. I think the meeting of it also, I said something like personal CRM survey. And it was, I don't know, sometime in the middle of the first week, maybe later on, when, like, I think we all realized on the team that, like, CRM is the wrong framing for this thing, right? Nobody likes CRMS [laughs]. CRMs are transactional. They're tools to sell something to somebody. You know, they are tools for, like, auditing your behavior if you're a salesperson to make sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing. They're, like, on a cadence. Like, CRMs are tools for a world, which is not what most people aspire for their personal relationships to be. And I don't think we've quite settled on what this thing actually is. And maybe there isn't a thing yet, right? Maybe that's part of the challenge that we're having, like, this thing doesn't exist, but it's not a CRM. And three-quarters of the way through the interviews is when I asked people like, "So, what question should I have asked you?" They all said, "Well, you didn't ask me about personal CRMs at all." I'm like, "Okay, that's a good point [laughs]." So, there have been plenty of pivots inside of my head around this and the way that I think about this problem, and some of these things are still embarrassing and still kind of coming back to haunt me and maybe haunt the rest of the team as well. I don't know, Jordyn, what [crosstalk 31:27] LINDSEY: Honestly, I was hoping for something way more embarrassing, but [laughs] -- JOSH: Way more embarrassing. JORDYN: If that's your embarrassing...[laughs] LINDSEY: Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great. JORDYN: You're doing great. JOSH: Okay, the number of video calls where I'm not wearing pants. [laughter] LINDSEY: Okay, onto the next question, Jordyn –- JOSH: Embarrassing or awkward, I don't know, yeah. [laughter] LINDSEY: Jordyn, you mentioned that Josh is not the only participant in this [crosstalk 31:52] JORDYN: Great question. LINDSEY: Tell me about, why not just Josh? What's going on? What are the developments there? JORDYN: Yeah, this is really exciting. So, we wanted to scale this program from the moment that we ran single companies [inaudible 32:08] to start because we wanted to learn as much as we could in a kind of intense, focused way from developing a process and seeing what's valuable about it. So, this was always kind of on our minds to do. And the way it worked out was just that there were two teams at thoughtbot ready and willing to serve. And we had, you know, anytime we [inaudible 32:28] the application window, we always kind of have a list of folks that we're excited about. We can't take all of them. But in this case, we had the two teams. And it also kind of fell in this nice way where we've got this team with a center of gravity, you know, GMT center of gravity, essentially. And then we have another team, which has more of a, like, U.S. center of gravity. And so, the timing kind of worked out. And yeah, I don't know, it wasn't anything more complex than that. It's just we'd always been on the lookout for how we could scale this effort––bring it to more folks. And this was the first opportunity where it appeared like it would work out. I mean, TBD if it's working out [laughs]. We can decide at the end [laughs]. But it's very exciting. It's fun. And we're really looking for ways to help these teams collaborate, you know, we'll see how. Everybody's in a Slack channel together inside of thoughtbot's Slack called thoughbot incubator. And our past participants are in there as well. And we're really trying to create an atmosphere where people can help each other, share tips, talk about what they're working on. There is actually some intersection between what Josh is working on and what the other team is working on, I think, just because, Josh, what you're working on applies [laughs] to a lot of people. I think it applies to these people, too. Anyway, that's [crosstalk 33:42] LINDSEY: It's fun to see the incubator Slack start to build out and folks talking to each other, and more thoughtboters are trickling in there. Because, Josh, you mentioned you've been a client before and a thoughtbot fan in the past. And now you can officially live in thoughtbot Slack, too, and hang out with us 24/7. JOSH: Still just a guest. LINDSEY: [laughs] JOSH: Only got my two channels. Can't DM you unless you're in one of those two channels. LINDSEY: One [crosstalk 34:11] JOSH: But yes, it is very exciting. This is better than snacks at your downtown Boston office. LINDSEY: Yeah, that's great. JOSH: I think I even added an emoji to Slack. I was pretty happy with that. LINDSEY: Oh, nice. We've got a good custom emoji library. JOSH: I mean, that's what we have for company culture, right? Is company emojis. LINDSEY: To kind of finish this out here, Josh or Jordyn, do you have any calls to action for our viewers or listeners, maybe interviews or survey participants or anything else? JORDYN: Well, certainly, if the pain point we described resonates for you [laughs], reach out. We would love to interview you. Or, like Josh said, if you actually have solved this problem [laughs] -- LINDSEY: Oh yeah, that was a good one. JORDYN: Please reach out [laughs]. That would be amazing. JOSH: But I actually meant that. So, like, hey, if you out there are a software developer, an entrepreneur, own a company that you think has really solved this, I would love to learn from that if you want to talk to us. If you are a person who struggles with this and feels like you've tried really hard to solve this, I'd love to hear from you as well. You know, did you search for a tool? Did you ask your friends? Did you try to build something yourself? Do you still use that thing you built yourself? Did you try one of those CRMs? [crosstalk 35:26] Did you try a personal CRM tool out there, right? Clay, Dex, Monica, folk, if those names resonate with you, like, I want to hear, right? I want to hear about people who feel like they're doing this thing really well or people who don't feel like they're doing as well as they should but who feel like they've put, like, real effort into it. LINDSEY: Great. Well, we're going to be catching up with Josh here every other week. JOSH: Great. LINDSEY: We'll have some updates on the thoughtbot blog. And in our alternating week, we're going to be catching up with the other founders going through the incubator. So, next week, we're going to chat with Mike and Chris. And y'all will get to meet them and hear a little bit about their journey and what's led them to validating their idea in the thoughtbot incubator as well. JOSH: And strong rec people to tune in for that one. They are extremely photogenic and very funny, and they talk slower than me, too, so a greater chance for people to understand what they're saying. So, all in all, definitely tune in for that. LINDSEY: That's a great promo. If you want to stay up to date with the incubator or are thinking about applying for the next session, I think will be in the new year, you can go to thoughtbot.com/incubator. And you can also sign up for email updates. And we can make sure to send you recordings of these interviews as well as the blog updates and then keep you up to date about when applications open and end. Jordyn and Josh, thank you so much for joining today and sharing what's been going on in the early days. It's really exciting to follow along. All right, have a great day. Thanks, everyone, for watching. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions. Special Guests: Jordyn Bonds and Josh Herzig-Marx .
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: EAGxVirtual: Speaker announcements, timings, and other updates, published by Sasha Berezhnoi on November 2, 2023 on The Effective Altruism Forum. EAGxVirtual is fast approaching and we're excited to share some more details about the event! This post covers updates from the team, including dates and times, content, unique features, and demographic data. In the previous post , we covered the conference theme, reasons to attend, and reviews from the previous attendees. Content: what to expect We're very excited to announce our key speakers for this event: Peter Singer on the most pressing moral issues facing humanity . Bruce Friedrich, President of The Good Food Institute on longtermism and alternative proteins. Carl Robichaud, Co-lead on nuclear policy grantmaking at Longview Philanthropy on a turning point in the story of nuclear weapons. Olga Kikou, Head of the EU Office of Compassion in World Farming on ending the cage age in the EU. Neel Nanda, Research Engineer at DeepMind on open problems in mechanistic interpretability. We are working hard on the program. Beyond the above talks (and many more talks and workshops!), you can expect office hours hosted by experts and EA orgs, fireside chats, group meetups and icebreakers, lightning talks from attendees, and unofficial satellite events. The tentative schedule is available here (all times are in UTC). Please note that the schedule is subject to change. The final schedule will be available on the Swapcard app, which we aim to launch next week. Taking action anywhere in the world We have already received 600 applications from people representing over 70 countries. We welcome all who have a genuine interest in learning more or connecting, including those who are new to effective altruism. If you are a highly-engaged EA, you can make a difference by being responsive to requests from first-time attendees. The map below shows the geographical distribution of the participants: We would love to see more applications. If you know someone who you think should attend the conference, please encourage them to apply by sending them this link: eagxvirtual.com The deadline for applications is 11:59 pm UTC on Thursday, 16 November. Apply here if you haven't already. Dates and times The conference will be taking place from 10 am UTC on Friday, November 17th, until 11:59 pm UTC on Sunday, November 19th. We don't expect you to always be online you can be flexible with your participation! It's completely okay if you can attend only on one of the days. Recordings will be available for registered attendees, so you can watch the sessions you missed later. Friday will feature introductory-level content for participants who are relatively new to EA and a career fair on Gather Town . Saturday and Sunday will have full-day schedules, starting at 7 am UTC each day. There will be a break in the program on Sunday between 2 am and 7 am UTC. Conference features Our main content and networking platform for the conference is the Swapcard . We will share access to the app with all the attendees on November 6 and provide guidance on how to use it and get the most out of the conference. We collaborate with EA Gather Town to make an always-available virtual venue for the attendees to spark more connections and unstructured discussions throughout the conference. Extensive stewardship program . We will highlight ambassadors across different cause areas whom you can speak to get advice or feedback on your career plans. Evergreen discussion space : we are inviting everyone to use EA Anywhere Slack as a discussion space. No more Slacks that are abandoned immediately after the conference is over! Ways to contribute If you want to represent your organization at the career fair or host office hours, please, fill out this form . Apply to give a Lightning talk if ...
For this week's episode, Chicago musician Brian Krumm (The Great Crusades, Brian Krumm and his Barfly Friends) brings us Minneapolis pop purveyors Trip Shakespeare and their 1990 major-label debut 'Across The Universe'. Songs discussed in this episode: Drummer Like Me - Trip Shakespeare (Live at First Avenue, 1988); Barfly Friends, Just Fade Away - Brian Krumm and his Barfly Friends; Closing Time - Semisonic; Sioux City Swinger - The Twilight Hours; Smells Like Teen Spirit - Nirvana; Elenore - The Turtles; Turtledove, Pearle, Snow Days, Drummer Like Me - Trip Shakespeare; Heavy Metal Drummer - Wilco; Gone Gone Gone, The Slacks, Unlucky Lady, The Nail, The Crane - Trip Shakespeare; Wonderful Tonight - Eric Clapton; Late, Honey Tree - Trip Shakespeare; Wasn't Born Yesterday - Brian Krumm and his Barfly Friends
Seif Lotfy, Co-Founder and CTO at Axiom, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how and why Axiom has taken a low-cost approach to event data. Seif describes the events that led to him helping co-found a company, and explains why the team wrote all their code from scratch. Corey and Seif discuss their views on AWS pricing, and Seif shares his views on why AWS doesn't have to compete on price. Seif also reveals some of the exciting new products and features that Axiom is currently working on. About SeifSeif is the bubbly Co-founder and CTO of Axiom where he has helped build the next generation of logging, tracing, and metrics. His background is at Xamarin, and Deutche Telekom and he is the kind of deep technical nerd that geeks out on white papers about emerging technology and then goes to see what he can build.Links Referenced: Axiom: https://axiom.co/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/seiflotfy TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by my friends, and soon to be yours, over at Axiom. Today I'm talking with Seif Lotfy, who's the co-founder and CTO of Axiom. Seif, how are you?Seif: Hey, Corey, I am very good, thank you. It's pretty late here, but it's worth it. I'm excited to be on this interview. How are you today?Corey: I'm not dead yet. It's weird, I see you at a bunch of different conferences, and I keep forgetting that you do in fact live half a world away. Is the entire company based in Europe? And where are you folks? Where do you start and where do you stop geographically? Let's start there. We over—everyone dives right into product. No, no, no. I want to know where in the world people sit because apparently, that's the most important thing about a company in 2023.Seif: Unless you ask Zoom because they're undoing whatever they did. We're from New Zealand, all the way to San Francisco, and everything in between. So, we have people in Egypt and Nigeria, all around Europe, all around the US… and UK, if you don't consider it Europe anymore.Corey: Yeah, it really depends. There's a lot of unfortunate naming that needs to get changed in the wake of that.Seif: [laugh].Corey: But enough about geopolitics. Let's talk about industry politics. I've been a fan of Axiom for a while and I was somewhat surprised to realize how long it had been around because I only heard about you folks a couple of years back. What is it you folks do? Because I know how I think about what you're up to, but you've also gone through some messaging iteration, and it is a near certainty that I am behind the times.Seif: Well, at this point, we just define ourselves as the best home for event data. So, Axiom is the best home for event data. We try to deal with everything that is event-based, so time-series. So, we can talk metrics, logs, traces, et cetera. And right now predominantly serving engineering and security.And we're trying to be—or we are—the first cloud-native time-series platform to provide streaming search, reporting, and monitoring capabilities. And we're built from the ground up, by the way. Like, we didn't actually—we're not using Parquet [unintelligible 00:02:36] thing. We're completely everything from the ground up.Corey: When I first started talking to you folks a few years back, there were two points to me that really stood out, and I know at least one of them still holds true. The first is that at the time, you were primarily talking about log data. Just send all your logs over to Axiom. The end. And that was a simple message that was simple enough that I could understand it, frankly.Because back when I was slinging servers around and you know breaking half of them, logs were effectively how we kept track of what was going on, where. These days, it feels like everything has been repainted with a very broad brush called observability, and the takeaway from most company pitches has been, you must be smarter than you are to understand what it is that we're up to. And in some cases, you scratch below the surface and realize it no, they have no idea what they're talking about either and they're really hoping you don't call them on that.Seif: It's packaging.Corey: Yeah. It is packaging and that's important.Seif: It's literally packaging. If you look at it, traces and logs, these are events. There's a timestamp and just data with it. It's a timestamp and data with it, right? Even metrics is all the way to that point.And a good example, now everybody's jumping on [OTel 00:03:46]. For me, OTel is nothing else, but a different structure for time series, for different types of time series, and that can be used differently, right? Or at least not used differently but you can leverage it differently.Corey: And the other thing that you did that was interesting and is a lot, I think, more sustainable as far as [moats 00:04:04] go, rather than things that can be changed on a billboard or whatnot, is your economic position. And your pricing has changed around somewhat, but I ran a number of analyses on your cost that you were passing on to customers and my takeaway was that it was a little bit more expensive to store data for logs in Axiom than it was to store it in S3, but not by much. And it just blew away the price point of everything else focused around logs, including AWS; you're paying 50 cents a gigabyte to ingest CloudWatch logs data over there. Other companies are charging multiples of that and Cisco recently bought Splunk for $28 billion because it was cheaper than paying their annual Splunk bill. How did you get to that price point? Is it just a matter of everyone else being greedy or have you done something different?Seif: We looked at it from the perspective of… so there's the three L's of logging. I forgot the name of the person at Netflix who talked about that, but basically, it's low costs, low latency, large scale, right? And you will never be able to fulfill all three of them. And we decided to work on low costs and large scale. And in terms of low latency, we won't be low as others like ClickHouse, but we are low enough. Like, we're fast enough.The idea is to be fast enough because in most cases, I don't want to compete on milliseconds. I think if the user can see his data in two seconds, he's happy. Or three seconds, he's happy. I'm not going to be, like, one to two seconds and make the cost exponentially higher because I'm one second faster than the other. And that's, I think, that the way we approached this from day one.And from day one, we also started utilizing the idea of existence of Open—Object Storage, we have our own compressions, our own encodings, et cetera, from day one, too, so and we still stick to that. That's why we never converted to other existing things like Parquet. Also because we are a Schema-On-Read, which Parquet doesn't allow you really to do. But other than that, it's… from day one, we wanted to save costs by also making coordination free. So, ingest has to be coordination free, right, because then we don't run a shitty Kafka, like, honestly a lot—a lot of the [logs 00:06:19] companies who running a Kafka in front of it, the Kafka tax reflects in what they—the bill that you're paying for them.Corey: What I found fun about your pricing model is it gets to a point that for any reasonable workload, how much to log or what to log or sample or keep everything is no longer an investment decision; it's just go ahead and handle it. And that was originally what you wound up building out. Increasingly, it seems like you're not just the place to send all the logs to, which to be honest, I was excited enough about that. That was replacing one of the projects I did a couple of times myself, which is building highly available, fault-tolerant, rsyslog clusters in data centers. Okay, great, you've gotten that unlocked, the economics are great, I don't have to worry about that anymore.And then you started adding interesting things on top of it, analyzing things, replaying events that happen to other players, et cetera, et cetera, it almost feels like you're not just a storage depot, but you also can forward certain things on under a variety of different rules or guises and format them as whatever on the other side is expecting them to be. So, there's a story about integrating with other observability vendors, for example, and only sending the stuff that's germane and relevant to them since everyone loves to charge by ingest.Seif: Yeah. So, we did this one thing called endpoints, the number one. Endpoints was a beginning where we said, “Let's let people send us data using whatever API they like using, let's say Elasticsearch, Datadog, Honeycomb, Loki, whatever, and we will just take that data and multiplex it back to them.” So, that's how part of it started. This allows us to see, like, how—allows customers to see how we compared to others, but then we took it a bit further and now, it's still in closed invite-only, but we have Pipelines—codenamed Pipelines—which allows you to send data to us and we will keep it as a source of truth, then we will, given specific rules, we can then ship it anywhere to a different destination, right, and this allows you just to, on the fly, send specific filter things out to, I don't know, a different vendor or even to S3 or you could send it to Splunk. But at the same time, you can—because we have all your data, you can go back in the past, if the incident happens and replay that completely into a different product.Corey: I would say that there's a definite approach to observability, from the perspective of every company tends to visualize stuff a little bit differently. And one of the promises of OTel that I'm seeing that as it grows is the idea of oh, I can send different parts of what I'm seeing off to different providers. But the instrumentation story for OTel is still very much emerging. Logs are kind of eternal and the only real change we've seen to logs over the past decade or so has been instead of just being plain text and their positional parameters would define what was what—if it's in this column, it's an IP address and if it's in this column, it's a return code, and that just wound up being ridiculous—now you see them having schemas; they are structured in a variety of different ways. Which, okay, it's a little harder to wind up just cat'ing a file together and piping it to grep, but there are trade-offs that make it worth it, in my experience.This is one of those transitional products that not only is great once you get to where you're going, from my playing with it, but also it meets you where you already are to get started because everything you've got is emitting logs somewhere, whether you know it or not.Seif: Yes. And that's why we picked up on OTel, right? Like, one of the first things, we now support… we have an OTel endpoint natively bec—or as a first-class citizen because we wanted to build this experience around OTel in general. Whether we like it or not, and there's more reasons to like it, OTel is a standard that's going to stay and it's going to move us forward. I think of OTel as will have the same effect if not bigger as [unintelligible 00:10:11] back of the day, but now it just went away from metrics, just went to metrics, logs, and traces.Traces is, for me, very interesting because I think OTel is the first one to push it in a standard way. There were several attempts to make standardized [logs 00:10:25], but I think traces was something that OTel really pushed into a proper standard that we can follow. It annoys me that everybody uses a different bits and pieces of it and adds something to it, but I think it's also because it's not that mature yet, so people are trying to figure out how to deliver the best experience and package it in a way that it's actually interesting for a user.Corey: What I have found is that there's a lot that's in this space that is just simply noise. Whenever I spend a protracted time period working on basically anything and I'm still confused by the way people talk about that thing, months or years later, I'm starting to get the realization that maybe I'm not the problem here. And I'm not—I don't mean this to be insulting, but one of the things I've loved about you folks is I've always understood what you're saying. Now, you can hear that as, “Oh, you mean we talk like simpletons?” No, it means what you're talking about resonates with at least a subset of the people who have the problem you solve. That's not nothing.Seif: Yes. We've tried really hard because one of the things we've tried to do is actually bring observability to people who are not always busy or it's not part of their day to day. So, we try to bring into [Versal 00:11:37] developers, right, with doing a Versal integration. And all of a sudden, now they have their logs, and they have a metrics, and they have some traces. So, all of a sudden, they're doing the observability work. Or they have actual observability, for their Versal based, [unintelligible 00:11:54]-based product.And we try to meet the people where they are, so we try to—instead of actually telling people, “You should send us data.”—I mean, that's what they do now—we try to find, okay, what product are you using and how can we grab data from there and send it to us to make your life easier? You see that we did that with Versal, we did that with Cloudflare. AWS, we have extensions, Lambda extensions, et cetera, but we're doing it for more things. For Netlify, it's a one-click integration, too, and that's what we're trying to do to actually make the experience and the journey easier.Corey: I want to change gears a little bit because something that we spent a fair bit of time talking about—it's why we became friends, I would think anyway—is that we have a shared appreciation for several things. One of which, at most notable to anyone around us is whenever we hang out, we greet each other effusively and then immediately begin complaining about costs of cloud services. What is your take on the way that clouds charge for things? And I know it's a bit of a leading question, but it's core and foundational to how you think about Axiom, as well as how you serve customers.Seif: They're ripping us off. I'm sorry [laugh]. They just—the amount of money they make, like, it's crazy. I would love to know what margins they have. That's a big question I've always had. I'm like, what are the margins they have at AWS right now?Corey: Across the board, it's something around 30 to 40%, last time I looked at it.Seif: That's a lot, too.Corey: Well, that's also across the board of everything, to be clear. It is very clear that some services are subsidized by other services. As it should be. If you start charging me per IAM call, we're done.Seif: And also, I mean, the machine learning stuff. Like, they won't be doing that much on top of it right now, right, [else nobody 00:13:32] will be using it.Corey: But data transfer? Yeah, there's a significant upcharge on that. But I hear you. I would moderate it a bit. I don't think that I would say that it's necessarily an intentional ripoff. My problem with most cloud services that they offer is not usually that they're too expensive—though there are exceptions to that—but rather that the dimensions are unpredictable in advance. So, you run something for a while and see what it costs. From where I sit, if a customer uses your service and then at the end of usage is surprised by how much it cost them, you've kind of screwed up.Seif: Look, if they can make egress free—like, you saw how Cloudflare just did the egress of R2 free? Because I am still stuck with AWS because let's face it, for me, it is still my favorite cloud, right? Cloudflare is my next favorite because of all the features that are trying to develop and the pace they're picking, the pace they're trying to catch up with. But again, one of the biggest things I liked is R2, and R2 egress is free. Now, that's interesting, right?But I never saw anything coming back from S3 from AWS on S3 for that, like you know. I think Amazon is so comfortable because from a product perspective, they're simple, they have the tools, et cetera. And the UI is not the flashiest one, but you know what you're doing, right? The CLI is not the flashiest one, but you know what you're doing. It is so cool that they don't really need to compete with others yet.And I think they're still dominantly the biggest cloud out there. I think you know more than me about that, but [unintelligible 00:14:57], like, I think they are the biggest one right now in terms of data volume. Like, how many customers are using them, and even in terms of profiles of people using them, it's very, so much. I know, like, a lot of the Microsoft Azure people who are using it, are using it because they come from enterprise that have been always Microsoft… very Microsoft friendly. And eventually, Microsoft also came in Europe in these all these different weird ways. But I feel sometimes ripped off by AWS because I see Cloudflare trying to reduce the prices and AWS just looking, like, “Yeah, you're not a threat to us so we'll keep our prices as they are.”Corey: I have it on good authority from folks who know that there are reasons behind the economic structures of both of those companies based—in terms of the primary direction the traffic flows and the rest. But across the board, they've done such a poor job of articulating this that, frankly, I think the confusion is on them to clear up, not us.Seif: True. True. And the reason I picked R2 and S3 to compare there and not look at Workers and Lambdas because I look at it as R2 is S3 compatible from an API perspective, right? So, they're giving me something that I already use. Everything else I'm using, I'm using inside Amazon, so it's in a VPC, but just the idea. Let me dream. Let me dream that S3 egress will be free at some point.Corey: I can dream.Seif: That's like Christmas. It's better than Christmas.Corey: What I'm surprised about is how reasonable your pricing is in turn. You wind up charging on the basis of ingest, which is basically the only thing that really makes sense for how your company is structured. But it's predictable in advance, the free tier is, what, 500 gigs a month of ingestion, and before people think, “Oh, that doesn't sound like a lot,” I encourage you to just go back and think how much data that really is in the context of logs for any toy project. Like, “Well, our production environment spits out way more than that.” Yes, and by the word production that you just used, you probably shouldn't be using a free trial of anything as your critical path observability tooling. Become a customer, not a user. I'm a big believer in that philosophy, personally. For all of my toy projects that are ridiculous, this is ample.Seif: People always tend to overestimate how much logs they're going to be sending. Like so, there's one thing. What you said it right: people who already have something going on, they already know how much logs they'll be sending around. But then eventually they're sending too much, and that's why we're back here and they're talking to us. Like, “We want to ttry your tool, but you know, we'll be sending more than that.” So, if you don't like our pricing, go find something else because I think we are the cheapest out there right now. We're the competitive the cheapest out there right now.Corey: If there is one that is less expensive, I'm unaware of it.Seif: [laugh].Corey: And I've been looking, let's be clear. That's not just me saying, “Well, nothing has skittered across my desk.” No, no, no, I pay attention to this space.Seif: Hey, where's—Corey, we're friends. Loyalty.Corey: Exactly.Seif: If you find something, you tell me.Corey: Oh, if I find something, I'll tell everyone.Seif: Nononon, you tell me first and you tell me in a nice way so I can reduce the prices on my site [laugh].Corey: This is how we start a price was, industry-wide, and I would love to see it.Seif: [laugh]. But there's enough channels that we share at this point across different Slacks and messaging apps that you should be able to ping me if you find one. Also, get me the name of the CEO and the CTO while you're at it.Corey: And where they live. Yes, yes, of course. The dire implications will be awesome.Seif: That was you, not me. That was your suggestion.Corey: Exactly.Seif: I will not—[laugh].Corey: Before we turn into a bit of an old thud and blunder, let's talk about something else that I'm curious about here. You've been working on Axiom for something like seven years now. You come from a world of databases and events and the like. Why start a company in the model of Axiom? Even back then, when I looked around, my big problem with the entire observability space could never have been described as, “You know what we need? More companies that do exactly this.” What was it that you saw that made you say, “Yeah, we're going to start a company because that sounds easy.”Seif: So, I'll be very clear. Like, I'm not going to, like, sugarcoat this. We kind of got in a position where it [forced counterweighted 00:19:10]. And [laugh] by that I mean, we came from a company where we were dealing with logs. Like, we actually wrote an event crash analytics tool for a company, but then we ended up wanting to use stuff like Datadog, but we didn't have the budget for that because Datadog was killing us.So, we ended up hosting our own Elasticsearch. And Elasticsearch, it costs us more to maintain our Elasticsearch cluster for the logs than to actually maintain our own little infrastructure for the crash events when we were getting, like, 1 billion crashes a month at this point. So eventually, we just—that was the first burn. And then you had alert fatigue and then you had consolidating events and timestamps and whatnot. The whole thing just seemed very messy.So, we started off after some company got sold, we started off by saying, “Okay, let's go work on a new self-hosted version of the [unintelligible 00:20:05] where we do metrics and logs.” And then that didn't go as well as we thought it would, but we ended up—because from day one, we were working on cloud na—because we d—we cloud ho—we were self-hosted, so we wanted to keep costs low, we were working on and making it stateless and work against object store. And this is kind of how we started. We realized, oh, our cost, we can host this and make it scale, and won't cost us that much.So, we did that. And that started gaining more attention. But the reason we started this was we wanted to start a self-hosted version of Datadog that is not costly, and we ended up doing a Software as a Service. I mean, you can still come and self-hosted, but you'll have to pay money for it, like, proper money for that. But we do as a SaaS version of this and instead of trying to be a self-hosted Datadog, we are now trying to compete—or we are competing with Datadog.Corey: Is the technology that you've built this on top of actually that different from everything else out there, or is this effectively what you see in a lot of places: “Oh, yeah, we're just going to manage Elasticsearch for you because that's annoying.” Do you have anything that distinguishes you from, I guess, the rest of the field?Seif: Yeah. So, very just bluntly, like, I think Scuba was the first thing that started standing out, and then Honeycomb came into the scene and they start building something based on Scuba, the [unintelligible 00:21:23] principles of Scuba. Then one of the authors of actual Scuba reached out to me when I told him I'm trying to build something, and he's gave me some ideas, and I start building that. And from day one, I said, “Okay, everything in S3. All queries have to be serverless.”So, all the queries run on functions. There's no real disks. It's just all on S3 right now. And the biggest issue—achievement we got to lower our cost was to get rid of Kafka, and have—let's say, in behind the scenes we have our own coordination-free mechanism, but the idea is not to actually have to use Kafka at all and thus reduce the costs incredibly. In terms of technology, no, we don't use Elasticsearch.We wrote everything from the ground up, from scratch, even the query language. Like, we have our own query language that's based—modeled after Kusto—KQL by Microsoft—so everything we have is built from absolutely from the ground up. And no Elastic. I'm not using Elastic anymore. Elastic is a horror for me. Absolutely horror.Corey: People love the API, but no, I've never met anyone who likes managing Elasticsearch or OpenSearch, or whatever we're calling your particular flavor of it. It is a colossal pain, it is subject to significant trade-offs, regardless of how you work with it, and Amazon's managed offering doesn't make it better; it makes it worse in a bunch of ways.Seif: And the green status of Elasticsearch is a myth. You'll only see it once: the first time you start that cluster, that's what the Elasticsearch cluster is green. After that, it's just orange, or red. And you know what? I'm happy when it's orange. Elasticsearch kept me up for so long. And we had actually a very interesting situation where we had Elasticsearch running on Azure, on Windows machines, and I would have server [unintelligible 00:23:10]. And I'd have to log in and every day—you remember, what's it called—RP… RP Something. What was it called?Corey: RDP? Remote Desktop Protocol, or something else?Seif: Yeah, yeah. Where you have to log in, like, you actually have visual thing, and you have to go in and—Corey: Yep.Seif: And visually go in and say, “Please don't restart.” Every day, I'd have to do that. Please don't restart, please don't restart. And also a lot of weird issues, and also at that point, Azure would decide to disconnect the pod, wanted to try to bring in a new pod, and all these weird things were happening back then. So, eventually, end up with a [unintelligible 00:23:39] decision. I'm talking 2013, '14, so it was back in the day when Elasticsearch was very young. And so, that was just a bad start for me.Corey: I will say that Azure is the most cost-effective cloud because their security is so clown shoes, you can just run whatever you want in someone else's account and it's free to you. Problem solved.Seif: Don't tell people how we save costs, okay?Corey: [laugh]. I love that.Seif: [laugh]. Don't tell people how we do this. Like, Corey, come on [laugh], you're exposing me here. Let me tell you one thing, though. Elasticsearch is the reason I literally use a shock collar or a shock bracelet on myself every time it went down—which was almost every day, instead of having PagerDuty, like, ring my phone.And, you know, I'd wake up and my partner back then would wake up. I bought a Bluetooth collar off of Alibaba that would tase me every time I'd get a notification, regardless of the notification. So, some things are false alarm, but I got tased for at least two, three weeks before I gave up. Every night I'd wake up, like, to a full discharge.Corey: I would never hook myself up to a shocker tied to outages, even if I owned a company. There are pleasant ways to wake up, unpleasant ways to wake up, and even worse. So, you're getting shocked for some—so someone else can wind up effectively driving the future of the business. You're, more or less, the monkey that gets shocked awake to go ahead and fix the thing that just broke.Seif: [laugh]. Well, the fix to that was moving from Azure to AWS without telling anybody. That got us in a lot of trouble. Again, that wasn't my company.Corey: They didn't notice that you did this, or it caused a lot of trouble because suddenly nothing worked where they thought it would work?Seif: They—no, no, everything worked fine on AWS. That's how my love story began. But they didn't notice for, like, six months.Corey: That's kind of amazing.Seif: [laugh]. That was specta—we rewrote everything from C# to Node.js and moved everything away from Elasticsearch, started using Redshift, Redis and a—you name it. We went AWS all the way and they didn't even notice. We took the budget from another department to start filling that in.But we cut the costs from $100,000 down to, like, 40, and then eventually down to $30,000 a month.Corey: More than a little wild.Seif: Oh, God, yeah. Good times, good times. Next time, just ask me to tell you the full story about this. I can't go into details on this podcast. I'll get in a lot—I think I'll get in trouble. I didn't sign anything though.Corey: Those are the best stories. But no, I hear you. I absolutely hear you. Seif, I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where should they go?Seif: So, axiom.co—not dot com. Dot C-O. That's where they learn more about Axiom. And other than that, I think I have a Twitter somewhere. And if you know how to write my name, you'll—it's just one word and find me on Twitter.Corey: We will put that all in the [show notes 00:26:33]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I really appreciate it.Seif: Dude, that was awesome. Thank you, man.Corey: Seif Lotfy, co-founder and CTO of Axiom, who has brought this promoted guest episode our way. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that one of these days, I will get around to aggregating in some horrifying custom homebrew logging system, probably built on top of rsyslog.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.
Suit and tie or t shirt? Slacks or jeans? Dressy or casual?In today's episode, Pastor Jackie and Pastor Derek talk about how a person ought to dress for church. There are a lot of beliefs around this topic, often rooted in culture and tradition. Our goal is to look through Scripture and see if there are any laws that we should be dogmatic about and other principles to follow. Our hope is that as you listen, you will better understand what exactly Scripture says about this topic and let that influence your culture and tradition in the church you attend.The 17:17 podcast is a ministry of Roseville Baptist Church (MN) that seeks to tackle cultural issues and societal questions from a biblical worldview so that listeners discover what the Bible has to say about the key issues they face on a daily basis. The 17:17 podcast seeks to teach the truth of God's Word in a way that is glorifying to God and easy to understand with the hope of furthering God's kingdom in Spirit and in Truth. Scriptures: Deut. 22:11; Lev. 19:19; 1 Cor. 11:3-16; Lev. 19:27; 2 Sam. 10; 1 Tim. 2:9-10; 1 Pet. 3:3-4; James 2:2-5; 1 Sam. 16:7; John 7:24; Matt. 23:27; Matt. 7:2; Matt. 6:25; 1 Cor. 10:31; Rom. 14:21; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 13:14; Eph. 4:24; Job 29:14; 1 Pet. 5:5.Please listen, subscribe, rate, and review the podcast so that we can reach to larger audiences and share the truth of God's Word with them!Write in your own questions to be answered on the show at 1717pod@gmail.com. God bless!
Holo-commentator Tony Thaxton is back to watch as General Pryde receives deadly new orders from Sheev!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Sara has been stuck in Jury Duty (where she's forbidden to act out in any way) so it's a great excuse to revisit our episode about Helen Hulick Beebe - the woman who DARED to wear pants to the courthouse in defiance of the judge... Helen Hulick Beebe is working as a teacher in Los Angeles in 1938, and when she's called to court to testify in a burglary case she inadvertently causes quite the ruckus by...wearing pants! The Judge is outraged and reschedules the court date with an order to wear a dress when she returns, but Helen refuses to comply and the ire of the Judge boils over. The whole ordeal that follows lasts months and makes headlines across the country, putting Helen and her "slacks-tivism" into the spotlight. However, her story doesn't end there. Helen goes on to pioneer a new method of teaching for deaf students. Known today as the auditory-verbal approach, her method has opened the door for hearing impaired students and their families, making it possible to interact with the hearing world at a level that was previously impossible. How did Helen's battle against the pants-hating Judge ultimately play out? And how did she chart a pathway to develop, then expand the auditory-verbal approach? You'll have to listen to find out! — A Broad is a woman who lives by her own rules. Broads You Should Know is the podcast about the Broads who helped shape our world! 3 Ways you can help support the podcast: Write a review on Apple Podcasts Share your favorite episode on social media / tell a friend about the show! Send us an email with a broad suggestion, question, or comment at BroadsYouShouldKnow@gmail.com — Broads You Should Know is hosted by Sara Gorsky. IG: @SaraGorsky Web master / site design: www.BroadsYouShouldKnow.com — Broads You Should Know is produced by Sara Gorsky & edited by Chloe Skye
Josh Doody, Owner of Fearless Salary Negotiation, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss how to successfully negotiate your salary, and why it's important to do so even in times of economic uncertainty. Corey and Josh chat about some of the hidden reasons why salary negotiation is critical to job seekers, and what goes into determining salary bands behind the scenes. Josh also reveals why he feels there's some stagnancy in the big tech job market, and why it's critical for job seekers to have a balanced view of the value that they provide to employers when negotiating salary. Josh also describes some of the unexpected ways salary negotiations can come up throughout the interview process, and how to best handle the discomfort of negotiation. About JoshJosh is a salary negotiation coach who works with senior software engineers and engineering managers to negotiate job offers with big tech companies. He also wrote Fearless Salary Negotiation: A Step-by-Step Guide to Getting Paid What You're Worth, and recently launched Salary Negotiation Mastery to help folks who aren't able to work with him 1-on-1.Links Referenced: Company website: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/joshdoody LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdoody/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code they write, but also the containers and cloud infrastructure their apps run on. And probably the billing on top of that - which is neither here nor there. And a big part of that responsibility is app security — from code to cloud.That's where Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets teams where they are, automating application security controls across their existing tools, workflows, and the AWS application stack — including seamless integrations with AWS CodePipeline, Amazon EKS, Amazon Inspector and several others.Deploy on AWS. Secure with Snyk. Learn more at snyk.co/scream. That's S-N-Y-K-dot-C-O/scream. And my thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I have a returning guest today who hasn't been on for a couple of years, at least. Josh Doody is the owner of fearlesssalarynegotiation.com and focuses on a problem that's near and dear to my heart from my previous life as an employee, salary negotiation, specifically emphasizing software engineers, if I have that right. Josh, thanks for joining me.Josh: Yeah. You have it exactly right. It's great to be here, and good to talk to you again, Corey.Corey: I used to be practiced at doing salary negotiations, which is a very roundabout way of saying I got fired a lot, so I got lots of practice at doing it. And I found that it was a very strange experience that was completely orthogonal to anything else that I did in the course of my day-to-day. Now, of course, I you know, negotiate AWS bills for a living among many other things, and do a lot of sales work, and yeah okay, now it's a lot more germane. But back in my engineering life, it was the one time I got to really negotiate that wasn't, you know, haggling with some vendor somewhere when I'm trying to buy a burrito, was salary negotiation, and I felt utterly unprepared for it.Josh: Yeah, I think most people feel that way and you summarized pretty well why that is. And that's, you know, let's say you have a really robust career, you're around for decades, you know, you're working in lots of companies, you might have, I don't know, let's say ten, a dozen job offers that you negotiate, you know, give or take. And that's not very many reps for doing something that's as consequential as, you know, negotiating your actual pay. Which, depending on how senior you are, could be literally negotiating, like, you know, multiple cars' worth of value per year that you're going to [laugh] that you're going to earn. But you don't get the reps, so most people just kind of—I think they kind of don't even think about it until they have to think about it until it's directly in front of them. And then they just kind of power through it, get it over with or even totally ignore it and just get back to the thing that they're doing in their career, which is why you show up to work.Corey: It feels, on some level, like it's one of those areas where people wind up thinking about it long after they really should have. These days, it feels like salary negotiation process, more or less should start when you start debating, huh, maybe I'll change jobs. Like, it feels like it's really that early, not when you have an offer sitting in your inbox that needs a response by the end of the week. Right, wrong, or am I just thinking about this in ridiculous ways?Josh: No, I think you're right. So, you can start thinking about it, you know, you get a job offer in your inbox and you can start thinking how do I negotiate this now, but you know, you're going to be in a less secure position to do a strong negotiation at that moment than you would have had you begun thinking about it when you mentioned, which is, like, you're actually thinking about changing jobs, or, you know, maybe you just got a cold call from a recruiter and they're at a company that you're kind of interested in working with. So, maybe I will talk to this recruiter instead of just blocking them or whatever. And so, the whole process can begin at that moment when they say, “Hey, you know, we have this opportunity that we think you might be interested in. What do you think?”And then, you know, early on, they'll even kind of officially start the negotiation, at least in my mind, where they'll say, “But before we really go too far on this, like, what are you hoping to make here? You know, what are your salary expectations if you come work here?” And you're kind of off to the races at that moment. But even if they don't say that out loud, that's something that you should be thinking about from the beginning, which is, you know, maybe most broadly, how do I position myself to get the best possible version of the job offer that they're willing to give and to leave myself the most latitude to improve that job offer to be the maximum that they can afford to pay me or the maximum that their budget allows or however you want to frame that. So, short answer, yeah, I think you're right that most people think about it as sort of an afterthought, either after they've already started a job and they go, “Huh, I wonder if that guy over there is making more than I am?” Or, you know, “Shoot. I think I moved too fast there. Maybe I should have done something a little bit better.” When they could think about it way earlier in the process than that.Corey: Since I was last on the job market, there have been some changes, at least here in California, that have had a somewhat significant impact, to my understanding. First, job salary changes need to be posted in job ads, which I think is great—and that's occurring in a number of different states—and also it is now against the law, in California—or at least against public policy—to ask what someone's current compensation is and your salary history and dive into that. Now, that's all well and good, but I also have been asked a number of questions that are not exactly… green, when it comes to being in the middle of an interview. And, “You're not legally allowed to ask me that question,” is that a heck of a pushback.Josh: Yeah, I think that I've had a couple conversations about this recently, but also over the past few years, especially on the—you know, you mentioned the two prongs of that idea: what's your current salary, what are you making now? And, you know, what is the salary that you expect to make? And so, kind of one by one, states are outlawing potential employers' ability to ask about what you're currently making. And then I've also heard some agitation lately that there might be some federal legislation that's coming down that might just kind of take that off the table. As you mentioned, recruiters, companies, organizations, however you want to model them are very clever, and so there are always ways, you know, even if they're indirect questions, you know, you don't ask them what they're currently making, but you ask them something that gives you some insight into what they currently might be thinking.Also, if you're in the big tech world—which you mentioned you negotiate AWS contracts—in the big tech world, they don't necessarily have to ask you what you're currently making if they know that you're an L4 software engineer at Google. They can probably approximate it pretty well. And of course, they know that because you're going to have to tell them, you know, with a resume or when you're interviewing, that's kind of how you get in the door. So, that's an interesting thing. But I still say, avoid that. Try to avoid giving him as much information as possible.And I think the most important thing with the current salary idea is, you just don't want to say it out loud. You want to make sure that they can't quite grab onto that because you make it too easy for them when they know what your current salary is to just do sort of a cost-plus version of offering you a job, which is, “Well, you're making this much now. We'll just add 10% to that,” and that's your new job offer, when you know, that's not how you level up quickly and in big ways.And then you mentioned the salary expectations. I do think it's great that a lot of job offers now will have a salary range in them. That's a question that I see a lot is, like, how do I know that I'm not going to waste 25 hours of my personal time and maybe a trip across the country for a job, where when they finally make the offer, it's just laughably low? And the answer is, you know, hopefully, they have something that you can grab onto in the actual job description that says, here's what the range looks like. But even then, you'll notice if you look carefully—I saw one yesterday, and I don't remember where I saw it, but it was like, “Yeah, our range of salary is, you know, 120k up to 290k, depending on geographic region.”And it's like… I mean, technically, that's a salary range, but they don't tell you what the regions are, how they map, and all that stuff. So, you're not getting a lot of information there; you're just getting sort of an approximate number. But it's still helpful to know that information. And it's also helpful to not disclose that information. If you have a number in mind that you're hoping for, it's not in your best interest to share that with the company.So, I think at least what you can do is look at the job description. If they have some kind of a range, take a look at it, see if it feels like, okay, this is something I can work with or if it's just, you know, there's no way that that would ever work for me and you can just pass on it and save yourself some time.Corey: For me, one of the things that always frustrated me was that at the start of looking into a job, there's always the big question that they ask that has been the socially acceptable paths at screwing you over, and the knowing how to answer that is important. But I still bungled it a number of times whenever I was out of practice, which is quite simply, “Okay, what is it that you expect to make in your next role? What are your compensation requirements?” And it feels like answering that at the beginning of the process just completely sets your course for how the rest of that process is going to go.Josh: It does and it's something that's very subtle and clever because most people will not perceive that to be a negotiation tactic when it is. And also you mentioned earlier in the context of, like, asking you what your current salary is that it can be perceived as sort of a gatekeeping question. Like you mentioned, you know, you're in the middle of an interview and somebody pops a question at you like, “What is your [laugh] what's your current salary?” And you're looking at an interviewer and you're thinking, “If I don't give him this information, then I'm saying no to an interviewer, and how's that going to go over?”This is the same kind of thing. When, you know, at any point in the process, they might ask you what your salary expectations are, it could be on the first screening call, it could be right before, they like to hold this till right before they make an offer where you go through the whole interview process and then right before they're going to extend an offer, they say, “Hey, you know, I'm going to go to the hiring committee and make a recommendation that we hire. But before I do that, you know, what are you hoping to make if we actually do extend an offer and I go talk to the comp team?” And it can feel like, well, gosh, I better tell them the answer to that question because they literally just said, basically, like, “I have an offer for you, but first, I need this information from you.” And it can feel really kind of daunting to say, “No, I'm not going to give you that.”So, the question is, you know, should you give them that and how? You shouldn't, as I mentioned earlier. Giving them salary expectations, I'll give kind of a brief summary of why it's not a good idea. I think a good way to reframe that question, you know, what are you what are you hoping to make if you join our team, is, you know, “Hey, you know, we have a giant company here. We've got tens of thousands of employees. We've got thousands of engineers that are at your level and doing your kind of work. We have salary surveys that we run once a quarter, or once a month, that are super expensive. We know what everybody else in the industry is doing. We know what the value of this role is to our company. We know how many other people are applying for this job. We know how many open seats we have. You don't know any of that stuff, but even though you don't know any of that stuff, why don't you take a wild guess what we would pay you to do this job at this company at this moment?”Corey: And then of course, we're going to use it against you later, when you wind up having what you view as a negotiation, like, “Ah, but you said at the beginning of the process that this would be sufficient.”Josh: Yeah. So, that's the problem, right? As you take that wild guess and you're going to do one of two things. It's basically 0% that you're going to hit the nail on the head in terms of you guessed the actual maximum compensation that they would pay you to do the job, it's very unlikely.Corey: You're either going to guess too high and then basically get yourself disqualified—Josh: Yeah.Corey: —you're going to get too low and leave money on the table, or you're going to get it exactly right, but you'll never know whether you got it exactly right or whether you guessed low.Josh: Right. Even if you do guess exactly right, you won't know that you did. And so, of course, if you guess low, like you said, you leave money on the table. And the really pernicious thing is, you could guess low and still feel great about the result and never know it or not find out until the next time you get a job, which is to say, you know, you say a number that's well below the bottom of the minimum that they could pay you and so you say, I don't know, to use round numbers, you say $100,000. And they go, “Great, how about 120?”And you say, “Wow, they must really like me. They're going to pay, I just said 100 and they said 120. That's amazing.” And really what's going on is they're looking at, you know, their internal pay structure and they're like, we can't pay less than 120, like, the pay structure starts at 120. So, we'll pay 120, which is the literal bottom that you could make.You feel like you got a huge win of a 20% bump, but the reality is, you're probably not anywhere near the middle of that pay range and you're way behind the eight ball already. And of course, you could overshoot. And the worst-case scenario is you overshoot so far that you basically disqualify yourself from the process early. So, it's like, if it's on that first screening call, and you say—Corey: And they view you as being fundamentally unserious, where it's a, okay, the compensation for this role is 100 to 130, for example—to use made-up numbers—and you come in asking for 340. It's… okay like, there's no point in even doing a counter and having a negotiation at this point. We are so far apart, that it doesn't work out that way.Josh: Right, which on the surface, seems like oh, well, I just saved a bunch of time. But in reality, what you may have done is sort of like knocked yourself out of the entire hiring funnel for them, when what could have happened is perhaps you could have as you interviewed, you could have aligned better with a more senior role that would have had a higher pay range that you would have been a better fit for, you could have changed their budget based on the way that you present in your interviews and what they perceive from you. And who knows, maybe you actually do get an offer that looks like 340 because they say, “Oh, wow, we had you leveled as a, you know, an L6 and really should be, like, at an L7. So, how about this, you know, this senior or principal or lead role over here that we've been trying to fill for six months, we now realize you might be a good fit for that role. Why don't you go talk to that hiring manager, and if we have to, we'll just put you into that hiring stream?” Instead of, you set a giant number and we got to kick you out because there's no room for you here.Corey: This is all well and good and we're talking about effectively cash comp and salaries, but so many companies these days seem to tie a fair part of their compensation to the equity portion of it. And because remember, everything's up and to the right. Always. The end. Until one day, it's very much not.And now we're taking a look and seeing that, for example, Amazon stock has largely been in the toilet for a couple of years. It's what, 50% off of what it was at the peak.Josh: Yeah.Corey: So it's, on some level, when you're negotiating comp, it feels like you're being asked to predict the future of how well the company does. And at these multibillion-dollar company scales, are you really going to be in a position personally to meaningfully impact the stock price? Like, well, not positively anyway. And it just feels like it's a bit of a shell game where if you can't spot the sucker, it's probably you. Because I wanted to be an engineer, not a stockbroker.Josh: Yeah, I mean, first of all, you're right, that no individual engineer is really going to be impacting the bottom line of Google.Corey: Unless I take the site down.Josh: Right. Well, I was just [laugh]—man, you beat me to the punch on that one. Yeah. So, there is a possibility that one engineer could have a dramatic impact, but not the kind that you would hope if [laugh] you're also tied to their stock price, right? So, there's a couple of ways that I think about this.One of them, you mentioned the Amazon stock going down. So, one thing that's really interesting about that is really what Amazon is doing is they're targeting a total annual compensation number with their stock. And so, they start with their current known stock value—I don't know if they're doing this now, but for many years, they were just kind of building in a year-over-year growth number of 10 to 15%. So, we're going to give you this much total comp and we're targeting 300k total comp per year. And if you kind of map it out based on the base salary and the equity that vests and the signup bonuses they give you in years one and two, then it looks like a pretty flat, like, 300k a year when you build in that stock growth.So, the magic question that I started talking to—and had a couple of internal recruiter friends, like, last year, mid-year last year when things were looking pretty bad, and the question that I don't think that they had an answer to at the time and now they have answered is, well, what do we do when the stock doesn't grow 10 to 15% and actually kind of collapses, like, takes a huge nosedive? And the answer is that Amazon is still targeting a total comp of 300k a year. And they go back and they say, “Well, here's some more RSUs at the current value to kind of makeup for that. Here's your new vesting schedule on these.” They essentially are giving refreshers, and here's the new vesting schedule.And so, at least in Amazon's case, they did kind of try to right the ship. But the reason is that something you alluded to, you're not really getting equity in the company because you impact the company; you're getting equity in the company because it's another way for them to kind of generate, quote-unquote, “Cash flow” of some kind or comp, that isn't, you know, dollars coming off the books. So, this is something I think that's kind of a TBD is, Amazon has now answered this, which is we're going to give him—because otherwise, they're going to have a mass exodus, right, like, if you thought you're going to make 300k a year and you're actually going to make 180k a year, that's a huge dropoff, and you're probably going to be looking elsewhere. So, they say, “Well, here's some more RSUs.”The question is, you know, what will other companies do? All of this is, you know, we're talking about public companies here. So, there's a big difference between, like, Amazon stock, Google stock, whatever—or GSUs, whatever you want to call them—and then private, pre-IPO equity, and all these different things. I see those as much more in the category of what you described, which is, you know, if you're getting stock options on, like, an early stage, you know, like, an early stage startup, right, they're raising, like, their first or second or third round, you are going to have maybe kind of a large impact on the trajectory of the company, but on the price of that you have almost no agency whatsoever because of all the options that they have for dilution and all that other stuff that can go on and whether you even have shares that are going to be liquid at some point and all that stuff. So, I see that as much more like, you've just got to look at the company, the cash that they're paying you, how you feel about that, how you feel about the mission of the company, and understand that you've got, you know, you've got some lotto tickets in that company and who knows, maybe it goes to the moon and you get to go along for the ride, but much less certain than, you know, like I said, like, an Amazon-type situation where they actually will give you even more RSUs if the stock tanks over the course of the year.Corey: What are you seeing these days in terms of the macroeconomic conditions as a result? Like, some wit on Twitter said that the correction in the market has identified the grim reality that there are more engineers making $600,000 a year than there are engineering problems that need $600,000 engineers to fix them. So, there's a certain, are people being overcompensated? Is there a correction in the market? Is that changing the world of salary negotiation and peoples' job mobility?Josh: I think—working backwards—yes, job mobility is affected right now. I mean, I've seen you know, even in my own business, there are just fewer people reaching out and saying, “Hey, I have an offer at a big tech company.” Which is, you know, all over the news, layoffs. First, it was hiring freezes, right? This is late last year, October last year-ish, Q3, Q4, last year. They kind of said, “Oh, we're going to hire—we're going to slow down for a little bit on this hiring.”And then it was layoffs. And so, the last several months have been layoff after a layoff, you know, 5% here, 10% there at lots of different companies. Paradoxically, a lot of those companies are still up into the right, if you're looking at their stock price, lately. And I think a lot of that is back to the first thing that you said, which is, you know, do we have more engineers that are kind of sitting around looking for problems to solve than there are problems to solve? And I think the answer was probably, yes.Certainly, the pandemic, interest rates where they were, and all these other kind of macro-economic things, which I won't opine on too much because I'm not super-educated on them, but I understand them well enough to understand that basically, it was a better investment for a big company to hire an engineer, than necessarily to try to find somewhere to invest that money because interest rates were so low, so it's hard to find a nice quote-unquote, “Risk-free” return on the investment, so they said, “Why not? We'll just hire some engineers and maybe we'll get a bigger ROI there. We'll try a bunch of different projects, we'll put a bunch of people and maybe we'll go to the moon.”Corey: A lot of speculative or strategic hiring—Josh: Yeah.Corey: —and then okay, then you have—something that companies do when they have extra money is they greenlit additional projects. And when things get tight, they wind up effectively removing some of those projects from the table. And what I think people misunderstand in many cases is that compensation of employees is always more expensive than the infrastructure they work on, with very rare exceptions. So, the AWS bill is always secondary to payroll expenses, and fixing AWS cost takes time, effort, and engineering work, whereas laying people off requires a couple of difficult conversations—that companies increasingly seem to be bungling—and that's the end.Josh: Yeah. I think you're right about that. I mean, payroll, it's an old saw in businesses is that payroll is the biggest expense, right? Like, it's very expensive to hire people. But it could be the kind of thing, like you said, “We'll just fire up a bunch of these projects. We've been thinking about them anyway. We can't really invest this money anywhere else for a good return, so we'll take some shots here.” Right?But then interest rates go up and oh, there are places that I can get a nice return on this investment of cash, so maybe, you know, some of these projects that aren't going so well, we're going to shut them down. We're going to lean up a little bit. We're going to increase our margins, reduce our payroll costs, and just kind of ride this economic turmoil out and see how it goes. And who knows, maybe they'll fire some of those projects up later. But yes, it's much easier to say we're laying off 10% of our workforce tomorrow than it is to make a lot of other changes, especially on the expenses side.That's one of the few expenses I think that a company has direct control over and can simply reduce if they choose to. And that's kind of where we are right now, I think. And so, you mentioned economic mobility or job mobility. It's definitely way down. And I think the reason is that, you know, I mean, if I'd been through layoffs at companies that I worked at before, right?It's a really uncomfortable feeling, where the person that was sitting next to you in the office next to you gets laid off and you're sitting there wondering, “Am I going to be next?” And the last thing that you're going to do is start kind of poking your head up and looking for jobs and making it known that you're shopping, or even go ask for a raise or something because you're just trying to keep your head down and maybe the scythe will pass over me [laugh], right? Maybe they're going to miss me in this next round of layoffs if I just keep my mouth shut and I keep typing away here on my keyboard. So, I think a lot of that is going on where people are, if they're still employed, they're happy to be there and they're just going to kind of hunker down. And then if they're not employed, there's not a lot of them, you know, especially if you're coming from big tech, you would want to go most of the time to another big tech company.Like, that's why you're there, a lot of people aspire to work for big tech, they want to be in that ecosystem. But if all the big tech companies are laying people off or freezing hiring, there's nowhere to go. And so, there's nowhere to move if they want to. They don't want to make it known that they're looking to move because they don't want to draw attention to themselves if they're still employed. And if they're unemployed, the options for them to go somewhere are slim, but they probably have a severance package that they're kind of going to milk for a little bit and see if things kind of warm up again and they can go find somewhere to move to. So, everything feels, in the big tech level, there's a lot of inertia right now. People are just kind of sitting back, and there's a lot of friction, and they're just kind of hanging back to see what happens.Corey: And also, at least from my somewhat naive perspective, it feels like when people do get offers and they have made the decision to move on, there's an increasing sense of they should be thankful for what they get and not rock the boat by asking for more. But I vehemently disagree, to be very clear on this. I think that negotiate for the best package you can get. Do it in good faith and be responsible about it, but money that is life-changing to you is a rounding error at best for a lot of these companies. You will always be more invested in this than the counterparty that you're negotiating against. But it just really throws me and on some level, makes me sad watching people take less than they could be getting.Josh: Yeah. I mean, I think that's just the nature of people who are spooked when the economy is doing weird stuff. And it's an understandable reaction to it, but I agree with you. Just yesterday—you know, I'm in a bunch of [laugh] a bunch of different developer Slacks. I don't know which one this was, but I was in a developer Slack—and somebody was saying exactly that.They're like, “Yeah, I got this offer, it seems pretty good. I don't know if I should bother negotiating it, you know? Like, I, I—shouldn't I just be, you know, pretty satisfied with this thing that I got?” And I wrote a long response, which was, the short version of it was basically, “No.” And the reason is, think about all the costs that the company has incurred just to get to the point where they made you an offer?It was expensive for them. Believe me, a lot of money has been spent. They've gotten all the way to the finish line with you. I mean, the number is at least in the thousands of dollars; it's probably in the tens of thousands of dollars, especially if they flew out for an onside or something. If you went through an interview loop, just do the math on, well, I talked to six people for about an hour apiece. That's six hours right there of really expensive time probably at, like [laugh], you know, senior manager and above pay rates.So, they put a lot of money into trying to fill this role. They want to fill the role, especially in this environment. If you're that deep in the process, they've got a role that they probably feel is pretty crucial to be filled. So, you've got a lot of reasons that you should be optimistic about the value that you're bringing to that role and I think it's a mistake to not see what the maximum value is that you can get in return for the work that you're going to provide for them. So, I do think that being scared is not the right response there, again because they've made a significant investment to get to the point of making an offer.And remember their fallback, right, if you negotiate with them and they don't want to give you any more, I have never seen—and I underline the word ‘never—I've never seen that a big tech company, somebody negotiates, and the big tech company says, “Nevermind. Get out of here.” Job offer went away. I've never seen it.Corey: I was about to ask that because I've heard about it at startups. And back in years when I was on Twitter a lot more than I am now, I periodically have people messaging me saying that this happened to them. What should they do? Do I want to put the company on blast and the rest? It's something I learned relatively early on in that process was before I go off half-cocked—which I'm thrilled to do—can I get a screenshot of that email exchange back and forth?Because it hasn't happened often, but once or twice, what I have clearly seen is that the company makes an offer in good faith and the person comes back with what they believe is the professional way to negotiate for more money and it is such a screaming red flag that is basically fists-of-ham-powered here that companies are like, “Oh, thank God. We just learned this giant red flag. We can get out of this super easy by rescinding the offer because of the negotiation, rather than asking them who they think they're speaking to like that.” And that is the way of getting out of it in those cases. I don't think that's particularly common, and as you say, I don't suspect that happens at big tech companies.Josh: I mean, it's not a good look, right? There was a period last year where a big tech company… [laugh] I don't know if this is privileged information or not, but they were actually resending offers, and it's because they had gotten out over their skis. They were hiring way ahead of where they should have been, and then of course, everything turned and they had to start reducing headcount. So, they did, and then they started actually res—Corey: I can think of at least three companies off the top of my head that would qualify for that story. A lot of it came, but no one made an announcement that we're rescinding offers, but it doesn't take much on Twitter when you start seeing wow, 15 people all popped up at the same time claiming that. I wonder if they're telling—Josh: Weird.Corey: —the truth, given they've never—Josh: It's a pattern.Corey: —interacted with each other?Josh: Yes.Corey: Yeah…Josh: So, without putting them on blast, obviously, the reason I'm not saying their names is I would be putting them on bla—it's not a good look, right? Nobody wants to know that they're in the interview process for a company who is known for rescinding offers. And so, you know it wasn't a decision they took lightly. And so, to your point, companies are not just going to willy-nilly start pulling back offers because that's really terrible PR. I mean, it's just not a good idea.So, it's either what you said, which is—and this is something, like when I say, “I've never seen it; underline the word never,” right, what I mean is I work with people one-on-one for a living; that's what I do. None of my clients have ever had a job offer rescinded from big tech company. That's not to say it hasn't happened for reasons like you mentioned.Corey: Yeah, I have to imagine that the emails you help them craft to respond to these things don't start off with, “Now, listen here, asshole…”Josh: Right.Corey: Like, I sort of get the sense that that's not quite the negotiating tone that you take, most days.Josh: [laugh]. No. There's no, like, you know, “I've CC'd my lawyer on this email… and blah, blah—” you know, that's not how I negotiate; it's not a good way to negotiate if you want to get good results and build rapport with people. So, in general, if you follow what I would call, like, kind of good negotiating practices—which is self-serving because I would say that I've created a lot of them for salary negotiations, right—and if you're following the best practices there, everybody's understanding that we're having a professional, business conversation among, you know, [unintelligible 00:26:52] professionals. We're trying to find the best result, that's good for everybody and we're going to get there.And so, as long as you're not—you know, you mentioned, you know [laugh], I say, you know, pounding your fist on the desk and making ultimatums and stuff, like, that's not how I negotiate; you can hear it in the way I talk. You're going to be fine. They're not going to be rescinding offers and therefore, you have pretty much carte blanche to, in good faith, negotiate with them to see if there's more room to negotiate. And how aggressive you're being and what you're asking for, these are all things that are dependent on the situation, right? There's some cases where asking for another half a million a year would be completely absurd; in some cases where it's totally appropriate [laugh] and it just depends on what your situation is.Corey: For some roles, if you just accept the offer as given, you will lose status in their eyes, on some level. For example, one of the challenges we've had with contract negotiation has been when we hire folks to work on negotiations. It's one of those, like, “Okay, do we want somebody who accepts the first offer or do we want someone who really fights us tooth and nail over every aspect of it?” And it's, on some level, it's an extension to the interviewing process there.Josh: Yeah.Corey: I don't know what the right answer is on that I mostly shrug and make that my business partner's problem.Josh: I think it's a good metric to see, especially in your business, like, you want to know not only, like, can they negotiate contracts and all this stuff, but you want to know, like, how savvy are they in terms of business? And I think, in general, a person who just accepts the first offer they get in business, I will not say that they are not savvy because I don't know that, but it's not a signal of savviness, I think, to just outright accept the first thing that comes your way in business, in general.Corey: Oh, when I wind up interviewing people in person and telling them about offers and whatnot, in years past, it was always a, would you like me to sign it right now? It's… to be honest, I'm actually starting to reconsider having given it to you at all because only someone who is deranged is going to sign a contract they haven't read, and we don't try to hire for that.Josh: Right. Yeah, I mean, that's just not—especially when your job is negotiating—you want to know that this person is running a number of filters when they're considering, you know, what is probably a kind of a life-altering decision for them, right? And so, one of those filters is, “Are the terms of this contract good for me? Is there anything dangerous in here?” And one of the filters is, “Am I being appropriately compensated for the value that I'm going to bring?” That's the big one that I focus on, right?And there's a number of those filters and I think—you know, when I'm coaching someone, the first thing that we always say when a job offer comes in is, “Hey, thanks for the offer. I appreciate it. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like”—Corey: Yeah, acknowledge receipt.Josh: Yeah, yeah, “Thank you. I got the offer. Thank you for that.” And also acknowledge it and be thankful. Like, you know, “Hey, I appreciate it.” Like, “We have now made a significant step forward in this whole process that we're going through. I appreciate what you've done to get us here. I appreciate the fact that you're giving me an offer. That demonstrates a lot of trust and all these things. And if you don't mind, I'd like to take a day or two to think it over.” And then the last thing is, “Would you mind sending me a bullet-point summary in email of the numbers that you said, so I make sure I don't mess them up?”Because you're trying to avoid the very unlikely chance that they said numbers and you heard different numbers and then you start negotiating based on the different numbers and everything just kind of go sideways. So, that's the first three things: “Thank you for the offer.” “Can I have a day or two?” “Would you send me a bullet-point summary?” It doesn't have to be formal; just bullet points is fine.Corey: Would always irked me—and I you tend to see this a lot more with early career folks, but there's also this is a common failure mode as well among people who have been in one job for a while where they have gotten completely rusty at doing the interview dance. And they tend to view jobs as being this benevolent gift bestowed upon them by the employer and they become falling over themselves, just thanking them for the opportunity and the rest. And no, no, no, no, no. A job is a mutual exchange of value. You are solving a problem that the company has, and in turn, they are bringing you in and giving you a not inconsiderable amount of money—presumably—to wind up solving that problem for them, you both come out better than you were independently. That is what a job is. Confusing the power dynamic for something else feels, to me at least, like it's the wrong way to view things.Josh: Yeah. I've always not liked even the meta sort of way that we talk about jobs as, like, jobs created, jobs destroyed, somebody gave me a job. I don't know when that term—I would be curious actually, to kind of know the etymology of that term, but like, when we started describing jobs is the thing that was given or taken or—and instead, what it is, is it's a verbal contract or written contract. It's like, “Hey, I'm going to do work for you because I bring value. You're going to pay me because I'm creating value and because it's valuable to you. And we're going to figure out, you know, what's the meet-in-the-middle number, basically, that makes us both feel good about that business transaction.”You as a company can't do what you're doing without people like me. And I as a person have found a good place to flex that particular muscle at your company. That's great for both of us. Let's figure out how, you know, we can both be happy with it. So, it's definitely not that, you know, nobody's really doing anybody favors there. You're both entering into a mutual exchange of value for business reasons.And of course, your business reasons are different than theirs, but that's what they are. So yeah, I like the way that you frame that and you think about it. And I do think it can be a little harmful for people to have that perspective, especially like if they're in a position where they're thinking, “Oh, I'm so thankful that this company is willing to give me this job.” You know, “They're gifting me with this job and they're creating this job for me.” That's actually not what's happening.Corey: Something that I want to talk about, just because I've gone through this process myself as an employee, who interviewed a lot, negotiated a lot, and got hired a lot. Then I started this place and I've been on the other side of the table. And it turns out that it's not that hard to be a human being when you're the hiring manager and making these decisions. And understand the fact that yeah, you may be hiring five people this month, but these people aren't accepting five job offers a month—you hope—and going through that entire process themselves. And extending grace is just not that hard.Like, one thing that we've done since day one here has always been to put our salary compensation for the job in the job posting so we don't waste anyone's time. Where, like, “Well, what do you want to make?” It's like, if someone walks in to buy a car, the salesperson doesn't say, “Well, how much do you want to pay for it?” It doesn't work that way. It's, “This is the thing we're offering. This is the compensation we can build here. We don't do equity, so there's no funny money stories.”And yeah, I know you'd like to make three times more. So, would we, but without growth, that doesn't become sustainable. So, let's talk about how to get there. And being a responsible, decent human being is not that hard in the hiring space, but no one tells those stories because it's more fun, and outrage goes around the internet three times while the truth is still putting its boots on, where the idea of these horrible companies with people who don't know what they're doing just completely kicking themselves.Josh: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I thought, two things kind of flashed in my mind while you were talking. And the first one was, you know, I was a hiring manager for a while. And a lot of the sort of philosophy that I built around, like, asking for raises and promotions, right? Like, I have a process for that that's different than negotiating job offers, but the way that I developed it was as a hiring manager, my employees would say, you know—in their one-on-one or something—like, “Hey, you know, I feel like, you know, here's what happened when I started the company. For these reasons, I feel like I'm like, way behind where I should be in pay. Can you help?”And so, the way that I kind of approached that was, yes, I want to help them, but I cannot really do that on my own. I need a lot of information that I don't have for them. So, what information do I need from them to have them help me help them to get them a raise or get them or promotion, right? And so, I started thinking about it from the manager side of, like, essentially, kind of like a compassionate approach to, like, I need you to give me information and I will do what I can for you. And that was like, my whole philosophy with that, which is, I think I agree with you, but I need you to kind of prove to me that you should be paid more. Not because I don't believe you, but because I can't get you more money if I can't make that case, and I'm not able to make that case on my own, right?And so, I think that there is room for hiring managers to be compassionate in terms of like you said, just putting numbers in a job description, just so the person knows, like, yeah, this seems like it's probably approximately for me. Or you know, like I said, as a hiring manager saying, “Hey listen, I need you to bring me these three things. If you bring me those three things, that'd be the information that I need to go to finance or to HR or whoever and see if we can get you a raise or get you a promotion.” And if we can't, then I'll figure out, like, what are the next steps for you to get there to do that thing. And I think that in general, that's just removing friction from, like, forward-moving business processes and that's a good way to go.I think for you, right, you're saving yourself time, by putting those numbers in the job description, you're saving your applicants time by putting the numbers in the job description, and you're also kind of setting the terms for, like, the conversation that you're going to have, in addition to the abilities that they're bringing, the skills that they're going to bring, the things they're going to do for your company, you're also saving time on what the pay is going to be, what the compensation is going to look like approximately for that role, so that you can say, “Are we having a conversation whose parameters are known to us and that we agree upon to start with? Yes? Okay, great. Let's keep talking.” Otherwise, no, and maybe they should go somewhere else or maybe you need to rework your job listings because nobody is [laugh] applying for that job, right?But it's all data. It's a feedback loop. And it can be done compassionately. It doesn't have to be this, kind of, aggressive, you know, Shark Tank-style, like, I'm going to beat you over the head with this thing and get my result that I want, regardless of how you feel about it or, you know, how it makes you feel as a person.Corey: One last thing that I want to comment on this is that I've done this a fair bit, but if I wound up finding myself on the job market, I would absolutely reach out to you for coaching on the salary piece of it, just because you are a dispassionate third-party who is very aware of what the current state of the market is, you have a bunch of different offerings these days that range from a bunch of free articles on your website all the way up to individualized personalized coaching. I have bullied friends of mine into becoming your clients with a, “If he doesn't justify his fee, I will pay it instead of you.”Josh: [laugh]. Thank you for that, by the way.Corey: Of course. And I've never had to do it because you know what you're doing and the results absolutely speak for themselves. But my question is, what are you doing these days that's between the everything free on a website if you read it and, individualized one-on-one coaching? Are there now points in between those two extremes?Josh: Yeah. I think you actually summarized the whole spectrum pretty well. I mean, I've made—since I started my business seven-and-a-half years ago, one of the primary things that I did to start was, I'm going to create as much free content as I can and make it publicly available, just so that people can find it. Because there's no way that I can talk to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people one-on-one. And so, that's there on fearlesssalarynegotiation.com.The other end is my one-on-one coaching which I developed because, frankly, people were reaching out and saying, “Hey, will you coach me through this?” And I said, “Sure.” And I developed that business. And then in between is, I created a program… three or four months ago, I launched it. It's called Salary Negotiation Mastery, but it is essentially me sitting down late last year with an instructional designer and asking the question, how can I teach the methodology I use in my one-on-one coaching to people who can't afford to hire me or just aren't inclined to hire a consultant to help them do something? And how can I teach that to them in a way that they can execute it on their own to get a good result, or possibly, you know, they're just at an income bracket right now where it doesn't make sense for them to hire me?And so, that's kind of the middle ground there is it's a coaching program, but it's wrapped in a do-it-yourself thing, where you have, you know, worksheets and workbooks and things that you can use to do it yourself using exactly the methodology, even the templates and things that I use with my clients. And the only thing, of course, that you're missing is my brain, but I've put as much of that as I can into the program as possible. So, that's the spectrum is: free articles, Salary Negotiation Mastery in the middle, and then the top tier offering that I have is, like you said, one-on-one bespoke coaching, where I work with somebody one-on-one. And I don't do a lot of that, just because it requires a lot of time and I like to give a ton of focus to everybody that I work with.Corey: Which makes sense because it also feels like it's a very time-sensitive issue as well. Like with AWS bill, great people want it fixed now, but then procurement can slow things down. But that's okay; there's another bill coming next month. Job offers, speaking as a hiring manager, if you accept the job, terrific, that's great. If you don't. Then okay, that's unfortunate, but it happens. But either way, let us know so we can either continue speaking to other people or begin planning for you to show up. So, it feels like there's very much a strong sense of urgency around the entirety of what you do.Josh: Yeah, especially for the coaching. And the whole offering for my coaching offering is really designed to make sure that I have enough bandwidth available for someone to call me. I mean, literally, as we're in this recording right now, I could have gotten an application in the email that would say, “Hey, I have a job offer in hand from Google. It's for this much money, it's for this level, can you help?”Corey: “And they're on the other line. Please respond immediately.”Josh: Yes. And their recruiter is pressuring me for an answer. They want to get back to the hiring manager. And so, I need to be able to respond quickly, get back to that person, have an intro call, get to know them, see if I can help in their situation, kickoff, you know, this afternoon or tomorrow morning, get a counteroffer over in the next 24 to 36 hours, that kind of thing. And so, in order to do that, I've got to build an offering that allows me to have enough bandwidth and, kind of, agency over my schedule so that I can just sort of jump in immediately into the middle of a process that's ongoing and help the person get the best result possible.So, I enjoy that to be honest with you. I like, kind of, being called on in emergency situations like that. It's really good. But of course, I had to structure the offering so that it facilitates it so that I'm not, you know, already booked on the phone eight hours a day and unable to even look at my email until tomorrow or something because it just wouldn't work.Corey: Yeah. There's something to be said for being able to take a vacation.Josh: Yes. Which takes some planning, but can be done [laugh]. And it means I just have to turn off the application sometimes [laugh].Corey: Glad to see things are still going well for you. You started your business a few months before I started mine and it's great to see that we're both still failing to go out of business every month.Josh: [laugh]. That's how I see it, too. I'm still here. Now, what [laugh]? That's every month on the first when I do the books.Corey: [laugh]. I hear you. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more—and if they're changing jobs, they absolutely should—where should they go to find out?Josh: fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is the first place to go. I'm also on Twitter. I don't tweet a lot kind of actively, I probably should do better on that, but I'm at @joshdoody on Twitter and I'm very responsive on there. So, you could ping me on there or, you know, connect with me on LinkedIn if you wanted to; I'm also joshdoody there. But fearlesssalarynegotiation.com is the best place to go, especially if you're kind of in a time crunch. Everything is just right there for you to jump in and kind of grab, you know, the free resource that you might need or apply to work with me as a coaching client.Corey: Oh, the template emails are glorious.Josh: Yes. Those are one of my favorite things on the site. They don't look like other emails that people write, and something I take a lot of pride in is communicating well and creating good email templates that help a lot of people.Corey: Oh, in TextExpander, for a decade now, I've had a fill-in-the-blanks templated resignation letter, which it turns out, most people don't have. But I don't need it much these days, but it is useful to wind up giving to people from time to time. Like, “So, how do I tell my boss to take this job and shove it?” It's like—Josh: Well—Corey: —life is long and the industry is small. Go vent to your friends over beers. But there's very little upside and huge potential downside, so write the formal thing. Here you go. And it turns out that it's sort of cathartic, just filling that out. And it's like, oh, that's what this [unintelligible 00:42:05]. And it often helps people step back from the ledge sometimes. Or pushes them right off, depending.Josh: I think that's a useful service.Corey: But yeah, the [unintelligible 00:42:11] template emails are way better than mine.Josh: [laugh]. Well thanks, I appreciate it. It means a lot to me.Corey: [laugh]. Josh Doody the owner of fearlesssalarynegotiation.com. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment and be sure to include your salary expectations.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.
Talismans video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML-sED3fAzY Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E18 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host, mark, Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we are talking about talismans and touchstones and things that we do during the course of our day to remind ourselves that we are on a naturalistic, pagan, pagan path and to remind ourselves of our practice. Yucca: Right. And these could be things, we could have objects that help. Remind us but also moments in the day or activities that we're doing that we can use as, as metaphorical touchstones, right? Mark: Right, right. I mean, we've talked about a daily practice before. Those tend to be. In the beginning and the ending of the day, not in the sort of rush of the middle of the day. So what we're really focusing on, on with this podcast is more about what do we do just to bring back to mind that we're on this path and that these are our values and that kind of stuff, while we're in the midst of all the various business that we have to take care of during the day. Yucca: Right. So why, actually, why don't we start with one? You were just telling me about that. This was one of Michael's suggestions who we've had on the podcast before he was on the council. And you were saying it was 13 o'clock. Mark: 13 o'clock. Yucca: o'clock, yeah. So what's this 13 o'clock thing? Mark: Which is one o'clock in the afternoon of course. Michael is Irish and apparently there is something that happens at noon every day in Ireland on the public television stations which is called the Angelus, and it used to be a. Catholic thing with, you know, images of the Virgin Mary and all that kind of stuff. And the idea was that you were supposed to stop and pray or contemplate or just kind of remember, you know, that this is your religious path. Well, it's, it's become much more secularized now. They have images of the Irish countryside and. That kind of stuff instead. But it's still kind of a lovely idea. And so Michael suggested that because we have 13 principles and there are 13 moon cycles, and we just like that Yucca: 13. It's just fun. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, it's, it's a cool prime number. That we celebrate something like that at 13 o'clock every day. And just take a minute. That's all, you know, 60 seconds, that's all that it takes. What I do, I've put it in my phone as an alarm to remind me when it's Yucca: buzzes at you at one o'clock, Mark: Well, I actually get a 10 minute warning so that I can finish up whatever I'm doing right there and have a minute, but at, at, at the stroke of one. What I do is I just grasp my suntry pendant that I always wear, that I got at the Suntry retreat last year, and just imagine that I am floating in space, looking down at the earth. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Watching it slowly turn underneath me and just recognize, you know, as Carl Sagan said, this is everyone you've ever known. Everything that's ever happened in human history, all that you'll ever Yucca: king, every baker, every, yeah, every conflict we've ever had. Right. Every. Mark: event, every birth, every celebration, every cataclysm, all those things are embodied in this little planet floating in space. And so I just sort of meditate on that for about a minute, and then I let go of my pendant and go about my day. But I find it's a really wonderful addition to my practice and it's nice to have a little intercession in the middle of the day. That's about my spirituality. Yucca: Hmm. That's great. I love that idea. That's, that's where noom comes from the term originally, isn't it? Weren't there Mark: I think it, yeah, because it was originally Noce Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Noce, which is one of the. Catholic masses that celebrated through the course of the day. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I don't know what I, I know the first one is Matins and the last one is Vespers. Leys in the middle. Yucca: Yeah. So I think that's where the term is coming from, but I don't know enough about it. I just remember hearing that at one point that that's the origin. So it's a but I, I very much like those. I. And Islam has a, a similar structure of throughout the day having the different, the, just a small ritual throughout the day just to remind us. Right. And I think that there's a lot of, of power in that. Just stop for a moment and kind of have that reset. Right. Mark: Right. Yeah. Because I mean, it's so easy to get caught up in all the busyness of everything we have to do in order to keep the functions of our lives going. But one minute of time just to. Refocus on the big picture I think is really, for me, it's been very meaningful and has kind of contributed to my happiness. So, it's something I'm doing and I really appreciate Michael for suggesting it. Yucca: Yeah, that's fun. Mark: So what are some other things that we either practices or. You know, carrying of objects or keeping them in a, in a, a bag or a purse or putting them in our car. What, you know, other things that we might do to remind us during the day of our path. Yucca: Well, there's one that in my family on my adopted side, my stepmother is having a by the door. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Which is like a the other versions what might be like a Honda Fatima or it's like a protection against the the evil eye, but it's this beautiful, stylized hand. And the traditional belief behind it was, you know, it's protection from the evil eye. But that's something that, you know, growing up we would always have by the door and it would be something that We would just touch on the way out of the door, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: Not as a belief literally that that's somehow going to protect us. But just as a reminder of, hey, I'm stepping out of the home. I'm going out into the world and just to be more aware. Right. And just to kind of, you know, shields up, right? So it's almost like the button of like shields up right? Going out, leaving the, the sanctuary of the home. And so having something like that and I actually have the one that, that I grew up with in, in my home now, and it's just by the door and it's. It's just a nice reminder every time of coming in and out of the home space. Mark: And does everyone in your household do that? Yucca: The grownups do, it is too high at the moment for these smaller hands, but as they get older, I think they, they will. Mark: Ah-huh. Yucca: the one that we have is, If enthusiastically touched, could come down and break, so Mark: Oh, okay. Yucca: get a little bit older. Yeah. It's one that's made from broken pottery. Mark: Oh like Yucca: made from broken. Yeah. It's a mosaic made from broken pottery from Jerusalem. So it's, it's really beautiful and I would rather it not get crushed, but when they're when they're a little bit calmer, Then maybe they'll get, they'll get to do that particular one. Mark: Okay. Yucca: So in the meantime, they're, they've got plenty of other stuff to do. But that's, that's a type of object that's really nice. And I, although I don't drive a lot anymore in my hanging on my rear view mirror, I have a little bead that when I get into the car, it's just a, I just kind of give it a little boop. And just as a reminder of, Hey, I'm getting into the car, I'm taking on a big responsibility with the life of the passengers, my life, the life of anyone else on the c the road. And just take a moment to center and ground and then, then be on the way before just rush. You know? Cause a lot of times we're so tempted to get in the car. You've got the keys, you know, you've turned the car on before your seatbelt's even on and just, no, hang on. Slow down. About to drive this, you know, very, very heavy piece of equipment, very, very fast. So let's take a moment. So those are two that I have on a kind of a very practical level, but they, they really have that special meaning, so, Mark: I, I like that. I mean this, this sort of illustrates that you can imbue anything really with a particular meaning if you associate a practice with it. So, you know, just a little bead. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. It can just be a little something so that you you know, it, it becomes a part of your pattern as you, you know, you put the keys in, you put the seatbelt on, you, you touch the bead, you start the car, and it's just a part of the routine. Yucca: Yeah. So what about you? Do you have any other ones that you do? Mark: You know, what I do is I carry I carry some talismans and I've, there's a, there's a blog post, or it may be a YouTube video actually, because I think I did it while my arm was broken and I couldn't type. Yucca: Think it is a YouTube video. I think I've a long time. It's been several years, but yeah. Mark: Yes. That would've been 2017 when my, when Yucca: I'll see if I can find the link to that and put that in the show notes. Mark: Great. Yeah, so that's about talismans and the ones that I carry and what they mean to me. And what a talisman is really is just a little. Something a little token of some kind that reminds you of something specific. So, for example, I have an Arrowhead, which was one of the giveaways from. A, an earth honoring ritual that we did at Pantheon a few years ago. And it reminds me of the broader Pagan community and also of deep time being a, a, you know, a found arrowhead. So that's one. There's another, that's a smooth stone. That I got at a fired circle gathering, and it reminds me of that community and the, the people that I have in my life that really love me. So I have fi and there's a little mala bead that looks like a skull that is a memento mori. It reminds me that I'm gonna die and that I need to seize the day. So there are five or six of these little things. And as well as the suntry pendant that I wear around my neck. All of those serve to, kind of, to bring deeper meaning to my daily operation. You know, if I reach in my pocket for my comb while there are those talismans reminding me again that I'm on this path and I'm, I'm doing this, and it's more meaningful than just kind of wandering through life without. A sense of purpose or meaning? Yucca: So do you have a, is it. Is that part of a ritual in the morning, just to stick those into your pocket or are they already in your jeans and when you put your jeans on in the morning? There they are. Mark: They're already in my jeans and when I put my jeans on in the morning, there they are. The only time they come out is when I wash my jeans and then they go in another pair of jeans. Yucca: they're, they're switching pants. Okay. Mark: Yeah. But like for example, I bring them, you know, when I'm wearing dresses, Slacks to like a job interview. I bring those with me because they, you know, they're the, the emotional underpinning for me, right? They, they serve to represent all that community support and enthusiasm and history that I have as a basis on which to be confident and put myself forward. So, Yeah. So, and I've been doing this for a very long time, and of course, once in a while you'll lose one. And that's okay. These things happen. And, you know, I, I do a little ritual to charge each one when I first start carrying it, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: To give it its meaning. To associate it with that particular meaning. And I find, you know, this is a very old tradition. I mean, Roman soldiers used to carry little, you know, rolled up lead tablets with inscriptions on them of things that they, you know, wanted to happen for them, or ways they wanted to be protected. And we as atheopagan and, and naturalistic pagans, we can do the same thing. Yucca: Yeah, some of the ones that you mentioned reminded me of a few things that I have. But they're not objects. They're actually tattoos. Mark: Ah, Yucca: So a few years back at this point, we did an episode on CILs and I hadn't, sigils weren't really a big thing for me at that point but I played with it. Afterwards. Well, we, we did it a little bit before and I had kind of experimented with it so that we could prepare for the episode. And then I ended up deciding one of them after a few months, I went, you know what? This is really working for me, and I decided that I actually was gonna tattoo that on myself. So I did. Now I have on my left hand because I'm right-handed. Well and multiple other reasons as well. Cuz I wear my watch on my right hand. I wanted to access it on my wrist, but I did some white tattoos, which barely show up because I'm, I'm very very pale skinned. So the white just looks kind of like a scar almost. And so I put some marks on. And so I have one on my wrist. Which is for, for fo remembering where my focus is throughout the day, right. And to be paying attention to the things that I actually have influence over and I can control and not stressing constantly about the things that I. I do not have control over. Right. I have no control over what this weather is going to do, but I do have control over how I'm going to respond to that. Right. And another one I have on the back of my hand is a Memento Mori reminder. And throughout the day, I actually touch these on a regular basis. Just to remind, remind myself. It almost feels like pushing a button, like a Oh, right. Okay. Remember, Where's your focus, right? Or hey, this is, this is what you've got, right? Today is what you've got. You don't have tomorrow promised. And you know, that's okay. Right? What are you doing today to, to really live? Because nothing is guaranteed every day, every new day is a bonus. It's a gift, right? So those are. Those are, those are things that I felt strongly enough that I wasn't going to change my mind about whether or not I had that in 20 years. If I'm lucky enough to be here in 20 years, I'm still gonna be thinking about being lucky to be here in 20 years and where I'm focusing my energy on. But if there's certain other things that I'm working on in particular, I actually really like to use Henna. So Hannah's really nice because it, depending on where you put it on your body, right, there's certain areas where it's gonna fade right away. If you put Hannah on your palm, for instance, it's not gonna last, last for very long. But other parts of your body, it might last, you know, or you're not touching things as much or you don't produce as much oils. But you'll get several days to maybe a week out of time of having that symbol literally on your body or that reminder literally on your body. So. Mark: That's a great idea. I, I love that. I don't have any tattoos. I have design for two tattoos that I want to do, one of which is the Sumtry symbol. But I've just never had the free money to invest in having somebody do it. But one day I, I love that idea and I love the idea of You know, of, of recognizing that some of these things are permanent modes that you're, that you want to pursue in, in life. You always want to be aware of your mortality and its implications that you always want to be able to, you know, focus on what you're able to influence and not stress about the rest. Yeah, so tho those are very tallman. And I think. As, when we look at like tsi, the ice, the so-called iceman, the the, Yucca: Yeah, they had lots of tattoos in various places. Mark: right? And they were very obviously magical symbols of some kind. They, they were not, they were not particularly decorative. But you know, that that man had tattoos, which were clearly meant something. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We will never know exactly what they meant, but we can conjecture that they were protective or for luck and fortune in hunting or, you know, any of those kinds of things. And so I, I think the history of tattoos, you know, really kind of feeds into what you described for yours, Yucca. That's really, really great. Yucca: and I think there's, so I have, I have other ones too that were done by artists. I've got quite a bit on my back and And those were very meaningful and special too. But there's also something about, for the really simple ones, the doing it yourself. There's something very, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: there was, it was very nice to do that. So just the poking stick, the old style, you know, you just have your, you can buy the kits right, and get the right ink. You don't wanna just do any ink. You have to get the right ink to put in your body and you don't wanna be putting in your lead ink or things like that, right? But that in itself can be a ritual. And actually having an artist do it as well, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: you can really make that a really special thing. Mark: Sure. Well, and you've got all the endorphins that are provoked by the pain of the, of the tattooing. That puts you in kind of an altered state. I mean, people talk about how tattoos can be addictive Yucca: Yeah. Mark: and I, you know, I understand that. But that, that trans state, that state of being altered by the tattooing process is. Very much a ritual opportunity. It's you know, it's a, a state where you can, being in that trend state, you can apply a layer of meaning beyond simple decoration. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: To the, to the, the symbol that you're putting on yourself. And, and most of the people that I know who have tattoos, they associate meetings with them. They, they, they're not just decorative, they, they, they're there for a reason. Yucca: Yeah. That seems to be pretty, I mean, I can't think of anyone who I've asked about their tattoo and they haven't had some elaborate explanation about, you know, oh, this is, you know, the pair of sewing scissors because my mother and grandmother and I used to this and that, and you know, there's often, often stories that go along with it or, You know, things like, you know, this is my this is my five years sober tattoo, or my, you know, that kind of stuff, Mark: Or the semicolon for people who have survived suicide attempts, for example. Right. Not the end of the story. There's more to the sentence. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: All, you know, there are, there are a lot of different kinds of symbols like that that are very meaningful to people and that I think are some of which are intended to be communicative. You know, they're supposed to tell a story to someone else, and for others it's just you telling the story to yourself when you see them on your body. Yucca: and that's why for me, I chose white. I wanted them somewhere that I could see all the time, but I didn't want something that was gonna be flashy to someone else. Right. So that's why, I mean, I don't think most people even notice it. Right. But it's about, Mark: I certainly never did when we met at the Century Retreat last year, I. Yeah, I, I never noticed them. Yucca: Well I had, when we, then I had the one on my wrist, I didn't have the one on my hand. But again, I don't think it's showing up on the Mark: I can't see it on the screen through Zoom. No, I can't see it. Yucca: I think maybe it shows like you can barely see it, but I see it and that's what matters for me. Mark: course, of course. Yucca: my more visible, my more like elaborate ones. I do still have them so that I can cover them if I want, but the, the stigma around them is really faded, right? People don't get worried about that anymore. It used to be a big deal, but now it's a I don't know if the statistic is real, but it's supposed to be like a third of American millennials have a tattoo, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: like that. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Mark: Me neither. I mean, you see them everywhere and you know, I, in professional office circumstances, I've, you know, worked with a lot of people who, you know, they have sleeves and and all that. So yeah, it's, it's very common to me. I've just never really felt the opportunity. It's, it's not that I'm in any way morally opposed So, yeah, what we're talking about here really is about how do you create symbolic meaning that reverberates through you in the course of your daily operations as opposed to your daily practice, which might be, okay, I do this formal thing in the morning, I do a formal thing in the evening. That's great. But you know, I, I wanna be reminded of my values on a regular basis, and I want to be reminded of the things that I've learned that help me to be wiser and kinder. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So, you know, having those kinds of practices I think is a good way to have a touchstone to go back. those principles because, you know, the world can frazzle you, Yucca: He can't. Yeah. Mark: you know, really pull you out of any sense of centeredness in yourself. Yucca: As you were saying that it occurred to me. There's other points throughout the day that aren't things that I use, but that would be opportunities for other people if it's something that they do. If you wear makeup every morning, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: a great time. Right to c incorporate some something in there. And just the act of getting dressed too, like you talk about having the items that you keep in your jeans, but you know, is there, is there something when you are dotting your clothing that you are reminding yourself about the, the values that you have or so things like that. Mark: Not ordinarily, but certainly when I'm dressing professionally, like if I'm putting on a suit, I'm putting on a suit of armor. And, you know, I put on a suit to go to war because the kinds of contexts where I need to be dressed that way tend to be ones where I am advocating. Yeah, I'm advocating for something. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm trying to make a change. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And either that or I'm defending myself which is, you know, another, another possibility. So. You know, clothing and costume is another whole conversation we could have. And, you know, maybe we will at some point Yucca: think we should, yes. Mark: I think we should too. Because decorating ourselves in various ways is highly communicative to the people around us. And We make choices about what we wanna say. You know, we, it talks about what class we are, it talks about what gender we are. It talks about what what kind of work we do. It, it, it says a lot of stuff. Our education level. Yucca: views, our, you know, yes. All kinds of things. Mark: Yeah. So let's, let's put a pin in that and, Yucca: Yeah, we'll come back to that. Mark: Yeah, we'll definitely come back to that. But you know, the whole self adornment thing, you know, beyond the practicalities of being warm enough or cool enough I, I think are, are an interesting vein to explore for people that are working to fold meaning into the operation of their lives. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So this is, you know, sort of a. Whirlwind examination of all this stuff, but I, I, I think the, the fundamental point that I want to communicate is that you know, if there's a special rock that you like and it reminds you of something like a beautiful day at the beach or something, don't feel weird about carrying that around. That's, that absolutely makes sense to carry that around. Yucca: That's very human. We've been doing that a long time. Mark: Yes. Yes. And we can do it intentionally and it can become a part of our, of our practice. Yucca: Yeah. Well, this was a fun one. Thank you. A. Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Yucca, and we'll see you next week.
Full vid This week on FUNBEARABLE: our faithful Captain Ray provides the boys with POTENTIAL headlines, so we can record our reactions NOW to make sure we're on top of the 24-hour news cycle. Then Chuck and Brad talk Contropolis in PA. The two evil twins, as well as Gitem Steve Dave, Jen Kaminski, and Jimmy the Hair Guy trek down to the City of Brotherly Love (or closeby) to moderate some panels for the cast of MASH, Sailor Moon and the Mandalorian. They ship back up to Boston to see Frank Turner and the Interrupters (and spend nearly 20 hours in car together). The trip reveals a new obsessive trait that confused Ray, Brad - and probably you, our loyal listener. funbearablepod.com / @funbearablepod #manadalorian #comiccon #sailormoon #frankturner #theinterrupters
Are you a packing procrastinator? Or do you start planning your trip outfits the second you buy airline tickets? Regardless of how (or when) you pack, there is zero debate on “what to pack.” This week, your favorite personal stylist – Holly Katz, aka The Hostess with the Mostest – gives you the run-down on her “Vacation Must-Haves Packing Checklist.” You do not want to leave home without it! What to pack, how to pack, when to pack, forgetting to pack…. All this drama can totally ruin your vacation vibe. #GOODVIBESONLY So, if you've been planning the trip of your dreams, or just a weekend celebration like a graduation, a wedding, the in-laws 50th wedding anniversary (sorry) – then the best way to ensure you will enjoy every minute of your trip is to know what to put in your suitcase without even blinking an eye, or scrambling for last-minute outfits. #FASHIONCRIME PRO TIP: Holly has curated a perfect Pinterest Board with easy to find and pack travel wardrobe examples. She also has a FREE Travel Wardrobe Checklist – available only to our podcast listeners and newsletter subscribers. THE PACKING PLAN: If you are going away on a lovely vacation, or just taking a long weekend for an important life event, you need stuff to wear for multiple occasions. Even just a ‘beach trip” requires specific outfits and multiple items – from shoes and jewelry to casual and formal wear. Do not kid yourself that all you need is a bathing suit. #BadPlan Pick your suitcase. Holly does not advise the “carry-on bag” plan. Grown-up people need multiple outfits, shoes, accessories, and toiletries when they travel. If you are going somewhere where you need to “show up,” do not plan on re-wearing outfits or wearing clothing that has been stuffed into a carry-on. #NotOK #YouWillCheckABag Don't forget about your carry-on bag: critical for personal travel items you will always need access to during travel. Laptop, headphones, medicine, etc. Once you know your event, your location, your travel schedule, and the weather forecast of the places you will be visiting, start planning your outfits: daytime, evening wear, sleeping clothes, swimming, activities and traveling. That's a lot of outfits. Too much for a carry on. #sorrynotsorry HOW TO PLAN OUTFITS Start in your closet and think logically – from your drawers for the little things all the way up to long dresses hanging in your closet, Holly has a methodical process that works every time! Travel items: AirPods, book, jacket or wrap, sunglasses, medicines, jewelry, makeup, your computer and device chargers. Intimates: Underclothes Sleepwear Socks Shapewear Workout clothes Swim wear, coverups, hats, sunscreen Makeup, perfume, toiletries Daytime: Shorts T-shirts Jeans and pants Sweaters Bodysuits Jackets Casual shoes and accessories Evening: Dresses or evening wear Slacks and pants Jacket, wrap or coat Jewelry, evening accessories Evening shoes You CAN pack without stress, without panic buying, without over-packing AND without forgetting one single item once you learn Holly's magical trick to vacation packing. Be sure to listen to this week's episode - we can't give away all the secret sauce here! Plus, it always sounds like so much more fun coming directly from Holly! #FACTS Also: Join us, Follow us, Review us, DM us, Share us and Find us on social! Please leave us a REVIEW on Apple podcasts. Do all the things to share the love and you just might get a shout out! FASHION CRIMES PODCAST “The Best Fashion Friend You Never Knew You Needed” Hosted by Your Favorite Personal Stylist, Holly Katz! www.fashioncrimespodcast.com
Several People Are Typing was mostly written pre-pandemic but failed to garner publisher interest until a virus locked us all inside our homes with nothing to turn to but our jobs and our friend-Slacks. It manages to perfectly encapsulate what it feels like to use Slack for anything, with a dash of creepypasta for good measure. Our theme music was composed by Nick Lerangis. Advertise on OverdueSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This week on the Jackie (@anylaurie16) and Laurie (@anylaurie16) Show, we invite you to hate watch, explore single topics, and then pop down for a $3,000 purse... Comic of the Week: Katherine Blanford @itskatherineblanfordPlaces to get Jackie's album “Stay ”Kashian https://800pgr.lnk.to/StayKashianTW Places to get Laurie's album “”Corset https://800pgr.lnk.to/CorsetTW Buy 'Lauries books: https://www.amazon.com/Laurie-Kilmartin/e/B0096S2CLM%3Fref=dbsamngrwtscns_share Laurie has T-shirts! Https://www.teepublic.com/user/laurie-kilmartin Buy anything from Jackie: http://jackiekashian.com/storeFollow Jackie @jackiekashian and @anylaurie16 on Twitter! Here's all the websites you've ever wanted to ignore www.jackieandlaurieshow.comhttps://maximumfun.org/podcasts/jackie-and-laurie-show Released here on Monday's: https://www.patreon.com/JackieandLauriehttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-jackie-and-laurie-show/id1071731361
For Topic Tuesday, the guys are asked what makes for a ‘cult' car or truck? Robert T. owns a few, and wonders what attributes contribute to cult car status. Then, they debate lyrics for a new country song, starring the debate for Daniel B. in Rochester, NY. Social media questions ask if the new Prius Prime is a serious contender, do marketing departments attempt to make us all believe EVs are everywhere, and what are some of the guys' most embarrassing car moments? Seasons 1-11 are available on Amazon Prime and Vimeo worldwide. Please rate and review us on iTunes, and the TV show on IMDB and Amazon. Write to us with your Car Debates, Car Conclusions, and Topic Tuesdays at everydaydrivertv@gmail.com or everydaydriver.com. Share the podcast with your car enthusiast friends!
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