Podcast appearances and mentions of conrad saam

As we continue celebrating five years of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, this second installment in our special retrospective series highlights the marketing minds who have shaped industries, built iconic brands, and mastered the art of standing out. In this Marketing Masters edition, we spotlight leaders who have transformed the way we think about positioning, personal branding, relationship building, and sustainable growth. Their insights reveal that true marketing mastery isn't about chasing trends — it's about clarity, connection, and a relentless focus on serving the right audience with excellence. This episode features: Seth Godin: On why marketing success starts with focusing up, choosing the smallest viable audience, and resisting the temptation to be average. Rory Vaden: On building a powerful personal brand rooted in trust, and why your reputation is the foundation of lasting opportunity. Pat Flynn: On creating superfans through quality, authenticity, and meaningful relationship-building. John Ruhlin: On leveraging thoughtful generosity to deepen client loyalty, drive referrals, and accelerate business growth. Conrad Saam and Gyi Tsakalakis: On why marketing without a strategy leads to wasted effort — and how consistent execution wins over time. Across every conversation, one theme is clear: the most successful marketers aren't the ones who follow the crowd. They're the ones who lead with purpose, serve with authenticity, and build brands that endure. ---- Show Notes: 00:00 – Introduction: Lessons from Marketing Legends 03:11 – Seth Godin: Focus Up and Find Your Smallest Viable Audience 13:43 – Rory Vaden: Why Reputation Precedes Revenue 22:49 – Building a Personal Brand That Drives Business Growth 28:33 – Pat Flynn: Creating Superfans Through Quality and Connection 37:28 – Small Town Rules: Building Loyalty in a Digital World 44:36 – John Ruhlin: Strategic Gifting to Deepen Relationships 53:25 – Conrad Saam & Guy Sakalakis: Strategy vs. Tactics in Legal Marketing 01:07:15 – Final Takeaways: Building a Brand That Lasts ---- Links & Resources: Seth GodinRory VadenPat FlynnJohn RuhlinConrad Saam  Gyi Tsakalakis ---- Do you love this podcast and want to see more game changing content? Subscribe to our YouTube channel. ---- Past guests on The Game Changing Attorney Podcast include David Goggins, John Morgan, Alex Hormozi, Randi McGinn, Kim Scott, Chris Voss, Kevin O'Leary, Laura Wasser, John Maxwell, Mark Lanier, Robert Greene, and many more. ---- If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like: 356.  Warning: These Industry Titans' Insights Might Change How You Run Your Firm 251. Alex Hormozi — The Power of Humility in Achieving Entrepreneurial Success 279. AMMA — Building Trust Through Authentic Leadership

Live from the American Association for Justice conference in Miami, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing is back with another deep dive into law firm marketing strategies that actually move the needle. Conrad Saam and Gyi Tsakalakis break down the biggest questions they tackled at the event:

Live from the American Association for Justice conference in Miami, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing is back with another deep dive into law firm marketing strategies that actually move the needle. Conrad Saam and Gyi Tsakalakis break down the biggest questions they tackled at the event:

Live from the American Association for Justice conference in Miami, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing is back with another deep dive into law firm marketing strategies that actually move the needle. Conrad Saam and Gyi Tsakalakis break down the biggest questions they tackled at the event:

Zack talks with the hosts of the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Podcast, Gyi Tsakalakis, and Conrad Saam about how artificial intelligence is affecting consumer behavior and how your law firm should adjust to the changing market. Additionally, they discuss how to leverage AI to your advantage against your own marketing data to be more deliberate with your legal marketing spend.   Additionally, Zack and Jennifer discuss the Lawyerist's annual Best Law Firm Website contest, where they dig into what makes a website “work.”  Links from the episode:   https://www.youtube.com/@LHLM  https://www.gorillaz.com/  Chapters  00:00 Introduction to AI in Marketing  03:04 Best Practices for Law Firm Websites  06:11 The Importance of Emotional Connection  08:53 Innovative Website Experiences  12:08 Navigating AI's Impact on Marketing  15:02 Consumer Behavior and Marketing Strategies  20:42 The Impact of AI on Business Visibility  24:24 Leveraging AI for Client Insights  28:19 Data Analysis and AI: Transforming Marketing Strategies  32:44 Democratizing Data Access with AI  36:56 The Importance of Accurate Data Tracking  41:03 Practical Marketing Takeaways in the AI Era  46:12 lawyerist-podcast-outro.mp4   

Send us a textShownotes can be found at https://www.profitwithlaw.com/472.Are you grappling with how to effectively navigate the shifting landscape of law firm marketing?Join Moshe Amsel and Conrad Saam, founder of Mockingbird, as they dissect the current state of marketing for law firms. Conrad offers candid insights into how different marketing channels can yield varying returns and why firms need to adapt to today's changing environment. Moshe and Conrad explore the importance of efficient operations, understanding the true cost per client acquisition, and the strategic role of a Chief Marketing Officer in leveraging marketing efforts.Listen now to discover how to strategically align your marketing practices with business growth and profitability!Chapters:[00:00] Introduction to Conrad Saam[05:09] How to Approach Marketing[08:38] Marketing Math[11:12] Measuring Marketing Success[22:04] Sales Efficiency[29:32] The CMO Role[37:10] How to Connect with Conrad SaamResources mentioned:Book your FREE strategy session today!: profitwithlaw.com/strategysessionTake the Law Firm Growth Assessment and find out how you rate as a law firm owner! Check out our Profit with Law YouTube channel!Learn more about the Profit with Law Elite Coaching Program hereConnect with Conrad Saam: WebsiteJoin our Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/lawfirmgrowthsummit/To request a show topic, recommend a guest or ask a question for the show, please send an email to info@dreambuilderfinancial.com.Connect with Moshe on:Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/moshe.amselLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mosheamsel/

Zack talks with the hosts of the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Podcast, Gyi Tsakalakis, and Conrad Saam about how artificial intelligence is affecting consumer behavior and how your law firm should adjust to the changing market. Additionally, they discuss how to leverage AI to your advantage against your own marketing data to be more deliberate with your legal marketing spend.   Additionally, Zack and Jennifer discuss the Lawyerist's annual Best Law Firm Website contest, where they dig into what makes a website “work.”  Links from the episode:   Subscribe to Lunch Hour Legal Marketing https://www.youtube.com/@LHLM  https://www.gorillaz.com/  Chapters  00:00 Introduction to AI in Marketing  03:04 Best Practices for Law Firm Websites  06:11 The Importance of Emotional Connection  08:53 Innovative Website Experiences  12:08 Navigating AI's Impact on Marketing  15:02 Consumer Behavior and Marketing Strategies  20:42 The Impact of AI on Business Visibility  24:24 Leveraging AI for Client Insights  28:19 Data Analysis and AI: Transforming Marketing Strategies  32:44 Democratizing Data Access with AI  36:56 The Importance of Accurate Data Tracking  41:03 Practical Marketing Takeaways in the AI Era  46:12 lawyerist-podcast-outro.mp4    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Join Gyi Tsakalakis and Conrad Saam live from the Crisp Game Changer Summit, where they dive into game-changing insights for law firm marketing and branding success. From Michael Mogill's big announcement of Streaming Stack to strategies for building your brand through digital and omni-channel advertising, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways.

Join Gyi Tsakalakis and Conrad Saam live from the Crisp Game Changer Summit, where they dive into game-changing insights for law firm marketing and branding success. From Michael Mogill's big announcement of Streaming Stack to strategies for building your brand through digital and omni-channel advertising, this episode is packed with actionable takeaways.

What do you do if the marketing agency you are engaged with gets acquired? Legal marketing experts Gyi Tsakalakis and Conrad Saam break down the news of Scorpion's acquisition of Get Noticed Get Found and get into the potential pitfalls of YOUR marketing agency getting bought out. Learn the crucial things to watch for, like loss of data control, hidden fees, and potential conflicts of interest. Don't get caught off guard—stay informed and protect your firm's interests!  Conrad's Blog Post Press Release: Scorpion Acquires GNGF

What do you do if the marketing agency you are engaged with gets acquired? Legal marketing experts Gyi Tsakalakis and Conrad Saam break down the news of Scorpion's acquisition of Get Noticed Get Found and get into the potential pitfalls of YOUR marketing agency getting bought out. Learn the crucial things to watch for, like loss of data control, hidden fees, and potential conflicts of interest. Don't get caught off guard—stay informed and protect your firm's interests!  Conrad's Blog Post Press Release: Scorpion Acquires GNGF

I talked to a digital marketing agency owner, who gave me the real story about shady behavior from legal marketers that you should watch out for. Episode Highlights 06:01 The issue of getting locked into technologies without ownership or control over data 09:02 Defining what a viable lead is and how a good process integrates several systems 16:24 What law firms should do if you're forwarding leads to them 18:30 The implication of reselling leads, emphasizing that those are assets of the law firms not the vendors 19:12 Bidding on the law firm's brand in a pay-per-click campaign 21:18 The economics of branded and non-branded queries, raising concern over agencies conflating these two different concepts 29:13 The issue of sharing data with competitors, even indirectly, through digital marketing agencies that work with similarly situated firms in the same locality Episode Resources Connect with Jared Correia jared@redcavelegal.com https://redcavelegal.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredcorreia   https://twitter.com/RedCaveLegal www.linkedin.com/in/jaredcorreia/ Connect with Conrad Saam conrad@mockingbirdmarketing.com https://mockingbird.marketing/ https://legaltalknetwork.com/podcasts/lunch-hour-legal-marketing/  

Check out my LinkedIn Live interview with Conrad Saam at this link.Get Connected with SixFifty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, a business and employment legal document automation tool.Sign up for ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Gavel⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ using the code LAWSUBSCRIBED to get 10% off an annual subscription.Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Law Subscribed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to subscribe to the Substack newsletter to get notified about every episode, listen from your web browser, and for additional content.Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@lawsubscribed⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠everywhere⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Sign up for the Subscription Seminar waitlist at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠subscriptionseminar.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.Check out ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Mathew Kerbis'⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ law firm ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscription Attorney LLC⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Get full access to Law Subscribed at www.lawsubscribed.com/subscribe

What exactly is dark social? Gyi Tsakalakis chats with Conrad Saam about his ClioCon session titled, “Dark Social: How to Turn Your Community Into an Eager Referral Source.” You might have points of contact with consumers that are virtually impossible to track, but these connections are still bringing new clients to your law firm. Conrad explains dark social strategies for lawyers and how they can build affinity for your firm and bring in new business. Hear more from Gyi and Conrad on their podcast, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing! Conrad Saam is founder of Mockingbird Marketing, an online marketing agency focused exclusively on the legal market.

What exactly is dark social? Gyi Tsakalakis chats with Conrad Saam about his ClioCon session titled, “Dark Social: How to Turn Your Community Into an Eager Referral Source.” You might have points of contact with consumers that are virtually impossible to track, but these connections are still bringing new clients to your law firm. Conrad explains dark social strategies for lawyers and how they can build affinity for your firm and bring in new business. Hear more from Gyi and Conrad on their podcast, Lunch Hour Legal Marketing! Conrad Saam is founder of Mockingbird Marketing, an online marketing agency focused exclusively on the legal market.

Mockingbird Marketing President Conrad Saam. AttorneySync President Gyi Tsakalakis. Crisp Founder & CEO Michael Mogill. Three legal marketing experts. One unforgettable conversation. In this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, these savants sit down to discuss: What it means to focus on strategy over tactics The importance of running a law firm like a business When to build an in-house marketing team and when to partner with an agency Why it's easier to build a personal brand than a business brand How AI will change the legal space (and what will always stay the same) Links & Resources Episode Show Notes Avvo TikTok Pay-per-click (PPC) Pokémon GO Local Service Ads (LSAs) Google Business Profile Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) David C. Baker Search engine optimization (SEO) Customer Relationship Manager (CRM) CallRail Clubhouse Google Ads Facebook LinkedIn Gary Vaynerchuk Morgan and Morgan Joe Rogan Spotify YouTube Artificial intelligence (AI) Non-fungible tokens (NFTs) Ray Kurzweil Lawmatics WordPress ChatGPT Tom Martin United States Department of Justice (DOJ) Smith & Jones Ryan McKeen

Russell Alexander is joined by Jerry Zhou, CEO of DocEquity, Conrad Saam, Founder of Mockingbird Law Firm Marketing Agency, and, Gyi Tsakalakis, Founder of Attorney Sync, to discuss the ever-evolving landscape of artificial intelligence. They also share their thoughts on the implications that developments in AI have and could have on the family law industry.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Ashley Robinson, Conrad Saam, and Roy Sexton discuss:Social media as a tool for engagement. Deciding the best social media platform for you. Law firm marketing versus individual marketing. Connecting with those who already have deep roots in the community.  Key Takeaways:How you use social media matters. Doing nothing but promoting yourself is not going to build relationships. Connect with people, comment on their posts, and build relationships with your targets. You do not need to master all the platforms, but if you know your clients are on that platform, follow them, and comment on their posts. You don't need to duplicate everything your marketing team is doing but don't be silent on your own social media. People hire lawyers, not a law firm. Focus on thought leadership in a way that makes sense for you.  "There is no silver bullet or AI for authenticity." —  Conrad Saam Thank you to our Sponsors!Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/Get Visible: https://www.getvisible.com/ Episode References: Steve Seckler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenseckler/Get Staffed Up: https://getstaffedup.com/ Connect with Ashley Robinson:  Website: https://greencardiganmarketing.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyrobinsongcm/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GreenCardiganMarketingInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/green_cardigan_marketing/ Connect with Roy Sexton:  Website: https://www.clarkhill.com/LMA: https://legalmarketing.org/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/royesexton/Twitter: https://twitter.com/roysexton Connect with Conrad Saam:  Website: https://mockingbird.marketing/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conradsaam/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ConradSaamFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mockingbird.Marketing/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Ashley Robinson, Conrad Saam, and Roy Sexton discuss:The difference between marketing and business development. Creating a detailed client avatar. Marketing in a way that is comfortable for you and is where your audience is. Utilizing AI in marketing appropriately.  Key Takeaways:Marketing shows you the door and business development helps you to talk through it. Understand what you are wanting to do with your marketing and why you want to do it. Without knowing what you want to accomplish with your marketing, it will be harder to maintain effectively. Customize your social media marketing with a marketing team so you know what is and is not working and what does work for you and your firm. More content is not going to be the sole answer to your SEO problems.  "Focus on what you do well, and do that well, and then build on that, and build on that. We know that from dieting, exercise, and life, you're not going to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger just by saying you want that. You have to do the work slowly, surely steadily. And marketing is exactly that. And business development is exactly that." —  Roy Sexton Thank you to our Sponsors!Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/Get Visible: https://www.getvisible.com/ Episode References: Book: Selling the Invisible by Harry Beckwith - https://www.amazon.com/Selling-Invisible-Field-Modern-Marketing/dp/0446672319 Connect with Ashley Robinson:  Website: https://greencardiganmarketing.com/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyrobinsongcm/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GreenCardiganMarketingInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/green_cardigan_marketing/ Connect with Roy Sexton:  Website: https://www.clarkhill.com/LMA: https://legalmarketing.org/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/royesexton/Twitter: https://twitter.com/roysexton Connect with Conrad Saam:  Website: https://mockingbird.marketing/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/conradsaam/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ConradSaamFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mockingbird.Marketing/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

Every successful law firm owner understands the importance of effective marketing to grow their practice. But what actually works? How do you measure marketing success? What trends are worth investing in? Mockingbird Marketing Founder & CEO Conrad Saam has all these answers and more. On this episode of The Game Changing Attorney Podcast, Conrad and Crisp Founder & CEO Michael Mogill dive deep into: The difference between brand awareness and brand affinity Why you must borrow from today's profits to build tomorrow's revenue The real metrics that measure your marketing success Links & Resources: Episode Shownotes Avvo Justia Search engine optimization (SEO) Google Analytics TikTok Clubhouse Meerkat Pepsi Coke CallRail Google Local Service Ads (LSA) Google Pay Per Click (PPC) Customer Relationship Management (CRM) Parker Waichman Screaming Frog SEO Non-fungible tokens (NFTs) ChatGPT

In today's episode, Jim and Tyson chat with Gyi Tsakalakis and Conrad Saam! They dive into the journey of digital marketing and your legal practice. If you're interested in learning more about tips, tricks, marketing, and SEO, check out this week's episode.Gyi Tsakalakis helps lawyers grow their practices online. As a non-practicing lawyer, Gyi is familiar with the unique considerations of ethically and effectively marketing a law practice online. He founded AttorneySync to provide lawyers with more effective, transparent, and accountable digital legal marketing results. He proudly serves as a Co-Chair of ABATECHSHOW 2023 and hopes to see you there. He is passionate about Michigan football, coffee, and stoicism.After leading marketing efforts for Avvo, Conrad Saam left and founded Mockingbird Marketing, an online marketing agency focused exclusively on the legal market. Conrad is the author of “The FindLaw Jailbreak Guide,” a Google Small Business Advisor, and has held positions for various ABA Practice Management marketing committees. In his spare time, he enjoys publishing Cease and Desist letters from unscrupulous vendors called out for misleading the legal industry.1:05 Lunch Hour Legal Marketing4:18 poked the legal industry8:46 a lot better and a lot more13:38 that's what tech's all about17:01 first Metaverse law firm20:09 build relationships24:06 to clear buckets in referrals28:36 from an SEO standpoint32:48 business development36:07 budgetJim's Hack: Implementing  AnyTrack.io is providing a weekly sheet of all the leads to the firm that comes in and where everyone falls out of the funnel. It also tracks people from the time they come into our atmosphere, which will allow the firm to dial in exactly where the leads are coming from. Gyi's Tip: Create feedback loops. There are often a lot of improvement opportunities in law firms, starting from the point of first contact. The feedback loop is a great way to regularly ask clients, team members, other lawyers, etc for feedback about the entire legal process from start to finish. Conrad's Tip: All about velocity. How quickly are people moving through your funnel? This will give you a good metric for responsiveness and the ability to get people from one step to the next.Tyson's Tip: Leaky funnel! Look and track your abandoned calls within your phone software system to see where the leak might be in your funnel. If you don't know about it, you could be losing out on a lot of cases.Watch the podcast here. Join the Guild: www.maxlawguild.com

Conrad Saam, the President and Founder of Mockingbird Marketing, joins the show to talk about his commitment to transparency and clarity on salary—specifically, what that looks like and how it's reported and communicated to employees and candidates. He digs into the history, the process, how he established baselines, and why it's been so valuable for the firm. We wrap by discussing how compensation transparency has changed over time as his team grows both in size and in depth of knowledge—and how it's changed as his org chart becomes more complex and incorporates more specialized functions.

Your law firm is a business, so it's in your best interest to treat it like one. That means – focus on developing your marketing strategy. Gyi Tsakalakis chats with Conrad Saam and Jeana Goosman about targeting the right market with the right process to grow your law firm.  Gyi Tsakalakis is founder of AttorneySync and co-host of Lunch Hour Legal Marketing. Conrad Saam is founder of Mockingbird Marketing and co-host of Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.  Jeana Goosmann is the founder, CEO and managing partner of the Goosmann Law Firm.

In honor of Conrad Saam's recent appearance on this program, we're sharing an episode of his show Lunch Hour Legal Marketing for you to hear. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe for more Conrad and Gyi Tsakalakis. ----------- Conrad and Gyi take on the elephant in the courtroom. Clio's Legal Trend Report shows us potential clients are interested in both pricing and payment plans, but as lawyers, we're reluctant to go there. Why?  Explore options on how you can better position yourself. Are you less expensive than the competition? More efficient? A better value? Dig into the marketing opportunities that make you special based, in part, on your pricing model. Hey, the other guy is doing it. If it's something you've never considered, it's probably time you did.  And in the news (maybe related, just a bit!) we're seeing a spike in inflation, even if the Fed wants to call it transitory. Look around, everything seems to be going up … except legal fees? Plus, Facebook (and its global apps) go down. In legal tech, what's up with Smokeball legal matter management? Changes in Google marketing? Let's talk. 

It's a special bonus episode. Recently, Conrad appeared on the long running program Lawyer 2 Lawyer and he had loads of fun, so we decided to run it for you here. If you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe to Lawyer 2 Lawyer. --------- Many attorneys have received an offer of an award recognizing them as a distinguished lawyer in your city or state. Perhaps the message, coming as an email or a message on Facebook, offers a custom plaque, an inscribed crystal, and/or an appearance in a publication, and all for the low, low price of the membership fees to the awarding organization. Who would ever pass up such a rare opportunity? So are we looking at a pay-to-play here? A scam? What is the application process? And should lawyers beware?! On Lawyer 2 Lawyer, host Craig Williams is joined by Conrad Saam, founder of Mockingbird Marketing, to talk about the award industry, the constraints for legal marketing, and what lawyers should do if they receive a solicitation promising an award for a price.

Many attorneys have received an offer of an award recognizing them as a distinguished lawyer in your city or state. Perhaps the message, coming as an email or a message on Facebook, offers a custom plaque, an inscribed crystal, and/or an appearance in a publication, and all for the low, low price of the membership fees to the awarding organization. Who would ever pass up such a rare opportunity? So are we looking at a pay-to-play here? A scam? What is the application process? And should lawyers beware?! On Lawyer 2 Lawyer, host Craig Williams is joined by Conrad Saam, founder of Mockingbird Marketing, to talk about the award industry, the constraints for legal marketing, and what lawyers should do if they receive a solicitation promising an award for a price. Watch this channel next week for a special bonus Lunch Hour Legal Marketing episode. But there's no need to wait! Click here to find all the great content from Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.

Many attorneys have received an offer of an award recognizing them as a distinguished lawyer in your city or state. Perhaps the message, coming as an email or a message on Facebook, offers a custom plaque, an inscribed crystal, and/or an appearance in a publication, and all for the low, low price of the membership fees to the awarding organization. Who would ever pass up such a rare opportunity? So are we looking at a pay-to-play here? A scam? What is the application process? And should lawyers beware?! On Lawyer 2 Lawyer, host Craig Williams is joined by Conrad Saam, founder of Mockingbird Marketing, to talk about the award industry, the constraints for legal marketing, and what lawyers should do if they receive a solicitation promising an award for a price. Watch this channel next week for a special bonus Lunch Hour Legal Marketing episode. But there's no need to wait! Click here to find all the great content from Lunch Hour Legal Marketing.

Are you fearing a new future where big tech companies push you out of business? Where the Amazon of legal services makes you obsolete? My guest and I are here to tell you to put those fears to bed. Conrad Saam is the founder of Mockingbird Marketing, an agency focused on marketing for the legal industry. He previously spent 6 years running marketing for Avvo, and he really gets the role big tech and automation can and will play in the legal services market. Conrad joins us this week to discuss the future of big tech in the legal space. Since seeing brands like LegalZoom actively enter the legal practice in Arizona, there are some alarm bells going off and lawyers fearing the Amazonification of law, and being made redundant and overpriced. We discuss why these fears are unfounded, and how big tech can actually expand the whole market for legal services. Automated services can make the whole pie bigger, instead of just stealing your slice. We see parallels in the medical and even accounting industries proving just this.  The sky isn't falling, but you may have to embrace new tech and really think about your differentiation tactics and unique value propositions. Find Conrad at https://mockingbird.marketing/ or on Twitter at https://twitter.com/ConradSaam ----- FiveStarCounsel.com Get our FREE client service whitepaper! Join the Five Star Counsellors FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1575616019297055 Here's a link for you to get 20% off your first year of using TextExpander! - https://fivestarcounsel.com/textexpander

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Conrad Saam discuss:Focusing on what is important to the client right now, not the financials. Seeing marketing as an investment, not a cost or as part of a budget. Be proactive about problems and upfront in your communication. Making helping your clients achieve their goals your goal.  Key Takeaways:When people are hiring a lawyer, they are hiring a person, not your law degree or your mahogany desk. Proving you give a damn and having empathy really is a competitive advantage. Don't ask clients what their budget is, tell them what their investment needs to be.As an agency, your priority is not making yourself look good, it is solving the problem for your clients. Speak in business terms, not technical jargon.  "We don't tell them about costs; we don't talk to our clients about budgets or dollars. Everything is framed in terms of an investment, because that's what marketing is. If it's not an investment, it is lighting your kid’s college fund on fire." —  Conrad Saam Bedlam Conference: bedlamconference.comGet 50% off your ticket to the Bedlam Conference starting May 26, 2021 by using Promotional Code: STEVE!  Connect with Conrad Saam:  Website: mockingbird.marketingLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/conradsaam & linkedin.com/company/mockingbird-marketingTwitter: twitter.com/MockingbirdMktgFacebook: facebook.com/conradsaam & facebook.com/Mockingbird.Marketing Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

As a legal pro deciding what technology to buy, it's easy to be intimidated by that presenter. You know the one. She's the lawyer using all the shiny new tech tools to generate client leads and build business. But Clio CEO Jack Newton and Fastcase CEO Ed Walters tell host Conrad Saam that lawyers don't need to be tech whizzes to lead change. Taking incremental steps by listening to clients and understanding how to serve them better can often answer what technology to try first. Those small steps eventually lead to vast improvements in client service and business growth. The three share practical tips, including getting a handle on Net Promoter Scores. This episode follows the ABA Techshow program “Innovating Toward a Better Normal.” Ed Walters is the CEO of Fastcase and teaches the law of autonomous vehicles at Cornell and Georgetown. Jack Newton is the CEO of Clio and author of “The Client-Centered Law Firm.” Special thanks to Nota for sponsoring this episode.

Founder and CEO of Mockingbird Marketing, Conrad Saam talks with Seth Price in this episode of SEO Insider. Saam tells Seth about his time with AVVO and what it was like to work with the pioneers of link building.

After leading marketing efforts for Avvo, Conrad Saam founded Mockingbird Marketing, an online marketing agency focused exclusively on legal, though his principles are widely applicable across the board. He is the author of The FindLaw Jailbreak Guide, a Google Small Business Advisor, and has held positions for multiple ABA's Practice Management marketing committees. He is a frequent presenter at Bar Association CLEs across the country as well as a frequent presenter at Legal Marketing Associations meetings and webinars from coast-to-coast. Conrad Saam`s website: https://mockingbird.marketing/ Ishu Singh`s website: https://www.ishusingh.com/ Saam has also recently released a new book, Own the Map: Law Firm's Forgotten Online Marketing Asset, which shares the secrets to improving a law firm's location rankings in search. The book was published by the American Bar Association.  

In this episode, I am excited to have Chelsey Lambert on the show to speak on different technology and products for lawyers and her website, lextechreview.com. Chelsey is a Legal Technology Specialist, published author, and CLE speaker. As a former Practice Management Advisor for the Chicago Bar Association and executive for legal technology companies, she has seen our industry from many angles. She recently founded the legal technology blog LexTechReview.com, where she reviews products lawyers can use to run their business and teaches tech training classes.   Topics Covered Chelsey opens with talking about her thoughts on being one of the few women in the male-dominated field of law technology and how her time invested in the field has paid off. Why so many firms are afraid of adopting new and pioneering technology out of fear of change, and the benefits of taking the leap into new technology to keep your firm running as efficiently as possible. The importance of needs assessments, and investing the time and money into learning how to utilize the programs and have it ready for you. The differences between legal-specific tech and tools to non-legal specific, and the importance of the distinction depending on where your firm is and it's specific needs.For more information on Chelsey, find her at the following sites: Twitter: @chelseylambert             @lextechreview Website: www.lextechreview.com   Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho For more information, visit: jeenacho.com Order The Anxious Lawyer book — Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers I'm creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus 31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? http://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/ Transcript Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.   Jeena Cho: [00:00:40] My friends, thanks for being with us today. In this episode, I am delighted to have Chelsea Lambert who is a legal technology specialist, author and speaker as a former practice management adviser for the Chicago Bar Association and executive for legal technology companies. She's seen in our industry from so many different angles. She recently founded the legal technology blog LexTechReview.com where she reviews products lawyers can use to run their businesses, and teaches tech training classes. And I know that I can certainly use Chelsea's help like so many other solo attorneys, because I sometimes feel like managing my technology for my firm is like a full-time job in itself. So I'm really excited to have Chelsea share her wisdom and her knowledge on this topic. [00:01:31] Before we get into the interview, if you haven't listened to the last bonus episode, go back and check it out. It was a few episodes ago, I shared a six-minute guided meditation practice, to help you let go of stress and anxiety. And it's particularly great for this time of year because I know for me it's always a stressful time. And so often I hear from lawyers that they know they should meditate and practice mindfulness, but they just don't have the time. And I always tell them you know what, just start with six minutes. Start with just .1 hour. All the hours you dedicate to your clients, work, and others, don't you deserve to have just one .1 hour for yourself? And so I created a program, it's called Mindful Pause and it's designed for lawyers like you so that you can fit it into your very hectic schedule. So head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. That's "J-E-E-N-A-C-H-O" dot com. Or you could also look at the show notes.  And with that here is Chelsea. Welcome to the Resilient Lawyer podcast. Chelsey Lambert: [00:02:50] Oh thank you so much for having me. And for all that you do, of course, they provide it's been a great service and help to a lot of similar space that just you know need some more balance and an A level that reset button every now. Jeena Cho: [00:03:05] Thank you so much. So let's start by just having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do. Chelsey Lambert: [00:03:14] Yeah absolutely. So I have a legal technology blog called Lex Tech Review. My passion is training and providing education on ARIAD solutions that we work within our daily lives at the office and also schools and apps that we use to help. The US get more done in our inner lives at home. So I provide webinars. I write articles and reviews. I recently published the legal technology buyer's guide which is another shopper's handbook for anyone who's trying to navigate this. Crazy ocean of providers that we have now there are over 700 solutions available in different categories whether it's case management virtual receptionist's services or even courses like yours is listed in the guide. So if anybody is in that shopping's days right now they might want to check that out and then try and teach as often as I can online or at a bar association. Jeena Cho: [00:04:18] So you know we've sort of bumped into each other in the legal tech space or that world. And we met one family one of those conferences and I think that I'm often just so surprised to see as just how male tremendous field is the legal tech space and I've written articles just this is where I go on my crisis as so many legal technology conferences are just like you know white male techs that seem to just completely dominate this base of any age and it's totally crazy. [00:04:59] So yeah I mean I'm just curious like what is it like to be one of the few. I mean I know I can probably count and like one or two hands just a number of women that are in that in the space of Biegel technologies so you know what is that like. Chelsey Lambert: [00:05:16] Yeah. So you know I was really fortunate to have kind of fallen back into this space when I was 22 and did my first stage show that year. And you know my perspective there is a tremendous amount of opportunity to make a name for yourself and establish a personal birthright mountains and really come into your own as a woman in the legal tack. If you have the determination persistence and just straight up grit to make it happen because there is you know you're going to get there there's that you know you're going to get the conversation that you don't want to hear you're going to. [00:06:05] Be judged based on how you look you're going to get that leg just naturally because you're one in a sea of like tens of thousands. Right. So that's a nice starting so young in this space I think was helpful because I knew that this is where I wanted to invest my career. Like I love working with law firms and solo lawyers like I can. My parents were small business owners and I think in so many of the challenges that solo and small firm attorneys faced the challenges that my family went through when I was growing up like when you. Have that at the office it doesn't work like they're raving about it at the dinner table at all. I've lived that before I was even in that space so you know over the years I think some of the challenges that you have to overcome is. [00:06:54] Unfortunately just proving that you are actually smart. You know like having people like I worked I worked almost every single conference in the legal space all over the country. You know trekking boxes and trade show materials all over the place in my heels and you know breaking nails and putting bulls together you know and all of that stuff. [00:07:17] And that's part of my journey. And you know as hard of it as it was it is forbidden to say it's time to get in front of thousands of attorneys to meet and build relationships with bar associations all over the country. And you just have to. For me at least I just have to really keep at it. And once I you know like he was talking before we started. Once you kind of climb that mountain and you establish credibility and you build a reputation of integrity and. Respect and trustworthiness in this space and you kind of cross the cement on the other side of that mountain that is just killing fields like the amount of opportunity for women who build a name for themselves in the legal tech community is pretty astounding. Namely because quite honestly we have a crazy diversity problem. [00:08:18] So oftentimes like I wonder if I'm getting picked for the panel based on the fact that we need a woman to feed their diversity in my mind is actually valuable which like I would love to believe that I'm providing really useful material to my audience and it's actually a motivator for me to do that. Like I always have to make sure you know my presentations are on point and that I'm giving like so much value that people are coming up afterward you know asking for a follow-up call or something like that Rick. I just want them to be overwhelmed with information and resources. But also you know I've been lucky enough over the last few years to finally crest you know the summit and I feel like I'm on the other side of that hill climb. [00:09:04] Now when you're going through the climb you just got like you know you're going to have to have a little bit of a thick skin because as much as I don't want to admit it or talk about it and I don't want this to be the focus of the call there is still kind of like that mentality like you know you get asked like oh he work outside the home or like you know where is her husband and that has evidence. Like a person. Who somehow. So there's still a little bit of that it's much much better now and I have to say that it was five or ten years ago we were dramatically different. [00:09:40] I feel like it's the playing field is leveled out much more so than it was 10 years ago and I think that also has to do with just maturity and may not be 20 20 years. Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] Feel like your whole different standard as. And like all taxpayers other. Chelsey Lambert: [00:10:05] I feel like it is whether it's self-imposed. You know look I'm a pretty critical of myself and just think that Taipei you know OCV no personality. My mom hires brutes just would also show that I feel like I impose my own. Expectations on myself. Because I don't want there to be an opportunity for anyone to take a jab or discredit me in it. Like I don't want to give that opportunity outright. And then also I know like the standard I feel like women in general. [00:10:49] Are critical of themselves. Like there's so much in the media. You know I have this conversation like I have I'm very lucky to have a social circle and purposefully so of really successful. You know also the women who you know professionally have done very well for themselves because we can relate to each other. And I feel like we're the pressures that we impose on ourselves. Like ok well I have to make sure that I'm dressed appropriately and that I'm working out that I'm eating healthy and then I'm also like on top of my game from a work perspective that oh my gosh there's and if there is a typo newsletter. You're like really about it like a day. [00:11:35] You know you're going to get that attorney that comes back you know highlights a paragraph of something that you wrote it rips it to shreds and here goes. You know you internalize a lot of it because I feel like we have we imposed in some cases a double standard on ourselves of. You have to be perfect in every area of your life. And it's you know in your professional career as well. And so. I do feel those pressures my related to the industry. We work with attorneys and it's who some argue for a living and that's really where you know just coming back to that thick skin. I know that there's always going to be in a room of four or five hundred people there's going to be that one or that two that comes up to me and tells me how I should talk my second. [00:12:27] I'm ready for it. Like I'm just ready for it. And like you also have to have to have an open mind because those are also opportunities to work. Like maybe I could have done better. So to answer your question I think we-we I personally impose a higher standard and level of expectation on myself because I am fearful of a situation occurring where you know I would be I would be put on the spot and made an example of because you know I'm a woman. And it's also it also varies depending on where you are working you know like I said I've spoken in. [00:13:11] States all over the U.S. and you will see a different viewpoint when you will you know speaking in Texas or Mississippi or Florida or you know California. You know it does very much differ based on how progressive the geographic location. Jeena Cho: [00:13:30] One my reasons is legal and all male speakers have sort of response and I often get as well we just couldn't find any that they wanted the best speakers. And I'm suggesting that somehow I've invited a woman or person of color that they would be lowering their standards like that you know that in fact, they couldn't find anyone to speak on that particular topic. That is either a man or a person of color. Like. How did how do you respond to that? Chelsey Lambert: [00:14:09] So it's an unfortunate you know I put the last two conferences that aren't attended. I think even at one point took a picture of the states when they brought all the speakers up because it was you know like 10 for 10 or 12 or 12 all you know the typical white male speaker and you know it's just kind of disappointing get in the audience. I could have picked out like three women that were that great. I think that is something that we can acknowledge. But at the same time where is from my perspective. Where is that expert? Where should that effort the spent and I come from you know like sales and an entrepreneurial background? [00:14:53] So my attitude around it is while I'm just going to flood the market with so much content and so much value and I'm going to reach out to a bar association for a month and know that I'm available and me and build relationships with these conferences so that when it does come time to speakers that I've best positioned myself to be chosen because I think it's like if I dedicate that energy to trying to make an issue out of it I think it needs the issue more than it does the solution right now. You know that's really the struggle that I have with you I recognize that it is happening. [00:15:39] Absolutely. I think that you know Adriana Artist as actual chair did and the rideable job of really changing the percentage and profile of the overall tech faculty. I mean that there were more women speakers at a tech show last year than I think that I've ever seen previously and it was something that just kind of happened under you know behind the scenes that weren't like a calling it out. But it was just almost every room that I would walk in it was like oh that's refreshing. [00:16:10] Oh wow. Hey, it was kind of like this women's day like tomorrow we're going to be all guys I know it was just it was prevalent through the whole thing and that was really refreshing. I mean it's horrible that you know we have to call it out and say that but that's really what I see is that it's not true. [00:16:29] You know women like us in the industry to really push forward and get on as many panels as we can and provide as much content as we can and flood the marketplace with quality material so that it was an inspiration and a motivator for other women to get involved because we are also responsible for mentoring and grooming and being you know the role models for the ones that are going to come after us. And you know I jumped at the opportunity to help another woman making a name for her in this space cause. Jeena Cho: [00:17:14] We make sure we slammed the door behind us. And I think as women and we have an obligation to make sure that the people that are perhaps even more marginalized like women lawyers of color and other folks also kind of get their fair share of you know time and space and have their voices be heard because we really need just more diversity and inclusiveness in our profession than we care and it's just often just feels like it's an echo chamber. And I actually just stopped. Like and so like for me personally I'm like when I see the lack of diversity like I will just e-mail the organizers off the line and say like hey I just noticed that I know it's an attendee at your conference. You had you know male speakers to women speakers and none of them was a color. [00:18:06] As a woman of color. It makes me feel like I don't belong with that I don't have a place in your confidence and that's something you might keep in mind for future conferences and most of the time they're very appreciative and nice I will change. And then if they don't know if it's like a persistent continuing problem then maybe I'll write an article about it because I don't like advocacy and I'm certainly not suggesting like this suddenly that everyone should do. That's something that I choose to do. I'm going to call bullshit. I see. And you know and I'm not going to be like I'm just going to play nice and pretend that this isn't happening. It's just so obvious and blatant. [00:18:49] So now you know and I think that's also where being an ally is really important that if you're a male and like you know you might think like well you know I'm just so white do. Like what can I do to be part of the part of this solution? And that's also something that you can do is if you go to a conference and there are so many well it's you know there's a disproportionate number of white males speaking you might just say hey you know what I attended your conference and I noticed that there is a lack of women and black people of color at the conference and I think that actually is perhaps more powerful than a woman or person of color short of men it could be perceived as just like whining or complaining about you know not having your fair space. Whereas I think it's a white male coming stepping forward and saying that it can be more powerful. Chelsey Lambert: [00:19:40] So I mean just yeah it and it was you know my first positions on 88 committees. You know I was nominated by my met. So you know you really have to. And my mentor you know all of my mentors almost all of my mentors support to have. And you have to have good friends versus well throughout your career but you have been men and so you have to as you know to seek out people who proactively you have to grow actively seek out people who recognize they you have the value and intelligence and you know a lot to give and contribute in this space. [00:20:25] And then you have to ask like I think that there is one thing that really you know it's like you read Sheryl Sandberg's book Lean In. It's you know you are responsible for going to taking your seat at the table. You know so it's I really cannot hammer that point home enough. You know we are responsible. Everything in your career and life. It's really cool. It's a sale of some kind. [00:20:49] I know that as lawyers and we you know we don't always like the word selling we don't like the word sale but you are not leaving yourself every step of the way and it's your responsibility to find those advocates and you ask like an equal who is reasonable and blatant about it. Like I want to be involved in this magazine. I want to speak at this conference. All right. You know what do I need to do to get there and then I'll wavering we persisted until you get to the other side because that's the whole climb you know and that's really it for me. That was kind. It was just constant you know constant accent constant you know but when you ask you are show up and you know that's the other part of it too is the follow through. [00:21:39] So if you ask for the world and somebody gives you an opportunity then you better you know put up when you get there. You know that's the last thing that they want is open the door and then you don't do anything which I've also you know just really are. I've also done that for quite a few women where they you know complain about a problem or they're citing an issue and I go out of my way to make an introduction and give them an opportunity and then they dropped the ball and then I'm like they are you for real. That's right. You know so it goes both ways. Two of you know one thing you have to have to do the ask because you're never in life didn't get anything that you don't ask for. [00:22:25] And then you go out or show up and do the work. So you're willing to do those two things like you know take this problem take this challenge that we have into your own hands and force your way into this space. Because I promise you from personal experience once you go through that process. The opportunities are endless and by that, you have earned such a heart. And I know it's kind of messed up to say this but you have earned such like are one level of respect from the people around you-you know like. And to this day have people come up to me and say wow you know like from 10 years ago like here actually really smart like I thought you were just like a day like I don't know what a backhanded comment or like what I do with that. [00:23:13] You don't but I mean that goes to show that 10 years of like burning my way. You know that's just you know. So I still get a little bit of that and it doesn't make me upset and it doesn't make me angry but it does. Just like you just got to continue to push and push and push. But when you get to the other side I mean there's I've been booked for speaking engagements last week. Right. So then all of a sudden it's this windfall of our approach you know which I am very grateful for very grateful. And there are you know it's like the SES is. [00:23:52] It has a diversity problem. But there are also some really amazing awesome people and I think we might share the same philosophy of knowing you. You pick your family and you choose who you are who you choose to allow into your life and the ones who are supportive. I mean like you've got some real like amazing rock stars like Conrad Saam of Mockingbird marketing and Aaron 3 of the lawyer and the attorney saying and leaders of the case management for writers know like Larry Ward and the time of rock matter and practice and there it's like these are like you know the leaders of these tech companies. Jack wouldn't you know it's the leaders of these soccer fans has been very welcoming very supportive and you would never hear anything like that out of their mouth. [00:24:46] So it's kind of like surround yourself with the people who they don't walk through those glasses and that's you know another way that you can really give yourself a nice lake more you know wildling environment to do your work. Jeena Cho: [00:25:03] I'm shifting gears of technology now. You work with saws and small law firms and helping them sort of manage the technology helping them choose the best solutions for them. You know what do you think holds back so many fans and lawyers from adopting technology are trying that. Chelsey Lambert: [00:25:29] Change can suck. Really bad. It's a scary thing. And you know I always say solo and small firms. Two things. One software companies you know coming from working within it in one and being a marketer or a tech you know technology firms are. Just as much in competition with a solo or small firms open Amazon shopping cart as you are. You know other competitors are only 40 or so if I had to put a number on it. [00:26:05] 40 percent of the overall market actually adopted some type of case management or software solution to this because it's easier to keep doing things the way that we are great. It's just that well you know my business didn't fall apart yesterday. So why should I invest in this today? And it's also you have to make a commitment and you have to be accountable because once you buy that solution and starts hitting your credit card every single month are you actually using it. And if you have a single aide or you have it in enough cases to use the payment processing tool or whatever it is you have to be accountable to yourself. So it's one you know acknowledging that you need to better your business and make a change. And like I personally you know just signed up for a very intense 90-day program for my own business. And then when I did it I was like oh look this is going to be one of the hardest 90 days. [00:27:07] You know lay in it. But you really want the things that you say you want managed to do well that should be your motivator to make that change. What is that goal that is going to be you know we see all of these like marketing terms like it's going to make you more productive and it's going to make you more efficient? That's going to do. And yes that will do all of that stuff that absolutely. But what is it really good for you. [00:27:32] Can I help you bring in an extra two or three you know ten thousand dollars or two cases a month so that you can take your family on vacation. You haven't done in five years. What is that? What is that all. And I think that that's what we need to tie you to technology to be not just necessarily like oh it's going to make you more productive and more efficient. What's the person driving motivating factor for making that investment and I feel like that's kind of like the missing puzzle piece when it comes to Barclay. The solution is you know it is a really getting home early and you know are you really going to do that or are you just going to fill your time with. So tying those two things together getting over the change and making that commitment which is one of the hardest things and this is 21 days 41 days to make a habit so we can get them through the first 21 days of usage. That that's always the hardest. And 90 days to really see true results and are alike. Jeena Cho: [00:28:33] All right. You know if you notice suspension notices when I have like I stole some piece of technology that's supposed to do like whatever unless it's posted right. But like I can't seem to integrate it and actually make making a habit of using it because you can buy the best technology in the world. But if you don't integrate it into your daily life and actually use it it's actually not going to be really effective so no thoughts about selecting ones that are going to be easy to integrate into your backpack. And also just sort of making and part of your daily life. Chelsey Lambert: [00:29:09] Yeah. And I can actually use an I can use a recent console that I did with a law firm. So the software that came through my Web site entered their contact info and said you know we're looking to choose between I think it was like Zola's sweet rocket batter and caused all that's really the case manager at the writer Sitka on the fall at the firm and they say. Okay, what. You know I'm like What are the most important things to you. [00:29:36] They're like Okay we're really you know we want them all and want an accounting. We also want built-in. We also want slick ease of use because we're not tech savvy. The third one being the most important thing and we had a long talk. We narrowed it down to two and my homework for them as I want you to go and do these two actions. I want you to go and send your group e-mail inbox. And I want you to go and issue a bill and you know go through the process like building your time and showing the invoice they came back to me after they had demo both solutions and I said so which one feels like home. And it was a night and day difference between that two because you know and really like it wasn't even at that point like we went it has signed up as soon as we finished the job because they knew right away. [00:30:30] And I feel like a train which is the reason why I wrote this buyer's guide. I feel like attorneys have been trained to shop based on a feature checklist, not SSN. I mean that is how tech-savvy at my water the things that are most important to me and my career. It's like they're going around with a with a clipboard. And I know because I work in a trade show who has to go through this is they come to you with like a clipboard with a feature checklist and they say okay well for 50 dollars per user per month. Do you have that? And they go through this whole thing. Right. And it shouldn't even matter. You know what the money that you're spending per month is I mean obviously like I understand that we need to be budgeting conscious but you don't lose it. It's not going to matter if you're saving 13 dollars a month or you're paying an extra 30 dollars. [00:31:21] Why is that it should feel like home. And that's what you should. There should be usability there where you feel like people just jump in and move around and find things. And we're all different types of learners. You know there are visual learners there are auditory learners also barring technology and not making time training. [00:31:40] So if you're going to go about it on your own do a needs assessment and then the second bit of advice that I would have is and I do this with my own business. I use consultants freelancers who know contractors that are specific in what they do to help me with this stuff because this is what happens here by piece of technology just like you said I needed to integrate with X Y Z and it becomes one of those things on your to do list where it's like I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it tomorrow and all the sudden it's next week and all of a sudden its next month and now you've been paying this thing for like a month or two months and you still haven't done anything with it. Just go ahead and spend the extra money like we're there a few hours of somebodies time which in some cases will be like ten dollars an hour. And just how to have them get you a jumpstart right. And then once you know you've got a little bit of information it could be as simple as like going there. And you know one of your kids come in on the weekend like set up my address is set up. You know this is that and the other thing I'm not like if they're like 5 or 6 or 8 but you know if you have a teenager or so they can help you. [00:32:50] You know it's just taking that little bit of extra effort to have it ready for you. And all of these providers too. I mean I can honestly say that there is not a provider in this space right now that doesn't have a day isn't jumping over you know bending over backward to deliver exceptional training because space is that competitive where they have to. Jeena Cho: [00:33:17] Think about lawyers. I actually found this to be nice for myself is that actually there's a lot of technology out there that is not here specifically towards the lawyers right. I mean things like Sword like just you know how each other and I don't know that it been so often mentioned like no I have to find which specific program. [00:33:37] And I always found that to be really puzzling because it's like you know for example like CMOC just like there are so many better client management programs out there that are designed for nonlawyer it's just designed for like the average you know solo printer or whatever but like they want to like try to do the voice-specific program. So what are your thoughts on that? Is it really necessary for employers to have a more specific program specifically designed for employers and when it is an appropriate practice kind of looking at more programs that are designed for the general you know School of Business Owner? Chelsey Lambert: [00:34:17] Yeah absolutely. So coming back to that needs assessment. Let's start with you know what type of law that you practice and that type of cases that you serve. So I've seen law firms where they. And there is there's also the front office and the back office. So if you're going to give you kind of two different scenarios if you are a business law attorney who is a very heavy marketer you know marketing to startups in your area sending newsletters you know using e-mail marketing automation tools and forms connected to your Web site. [00:34:56] You very well might be investing in something like Inseam or hot spot to handle all of that. Like you said they see around the contacts is more relationship management system and marketing to try business into your firm and then in the back office, you would use tools for filing and form creation. You know make a legal link by Legal Aid. You're not going to be very hard for anybody in this space to find an all in one tool that is also legal specific. So it means that in a lot of situations I'll recommend that they run. And you'll see this when firms search grows to be midsize which is around like 30 employees. They'll start using nonlegal tools. [00:35:52] You'll start seeing them use like a sales force or a marketing tool for the front office and then back office will be delivered through something like a Clio Or a or in other case management system also practice areas specifically that to me in the back office environment. That is where those practice areas specific tools down and make the biggest difference. Like Cate's here for a personal injury like you'd be hard-pressed to find you know a better case management system than one that is specifically built for practice area because that's all that it does. [00:36:32] So finding a back office tool that can handle the case management that's the Civics' your area of law that has document automation that has really complex billing tools is going to be a solution that makes the office function very well and run like a well-oiled machine and actually equate to a better quality of life for employees whereas those nonlegal specific tools for the front office tasks like client communication or marketing you know things like that might be better serves you know in the front of the House and really I mean if you're looking at the spacewalk Secede is born are the only solutions that bridge the gap between that initial leak capture wind generation taking care of. It's like a sales force and then moves it over into your practice management system like Puleo. So you're starting to see those two sides of the business be a little bit more divided as far as technology options are concerned. [00:37:40] And the Chinese adopting things to serve the front end of marketing the generation the web them the advertising and then using the back office schools to actually manage the delivery. And that's really where I see the differences. And then also you know if you want to open it up to nonlegal tools I mean that could take years because there are so many thanks so much. [00:38:05] News coming out of the startup community now that you can barely keep up with it. So just be mindful that if you're going to use something that's not legally specific your shopping list of potential options gets exponentially longer. Jeena Cho: [00:38:25] Yeah. So when someone comes to you and says you know how when crafting timeline time entry. Now Clutterham might be like what design journey and most likely. Where does the inquiry begin? And how do you how the lawyers find the best solutions for them? Chelsey Lambert: [00:38:49] So I go through the kind of a series of questions of how many people do you have in your office. You fill your time on a flat fee or an hourly basis. How often are you sending those out? Are you transactional or are you-you know continued the base? There's a lot of variables in there. What's the level of tech savvy you were on a Mac or a PC? Are you looking at new forms driven by document automation is something where there are only a few providers that actually have it built in and do it well. So there might be a little you know kind of like nugget of information like oh where we primarily use florals and that's like really where we spend a majority of our time and it's there. [00:39:37] It's about understanding that workflow in the locker room and where a majority of time is spent because if you're spending your time tracking hours and belittles then we're going to go with lists of recommendations that are stronger in that time and billing category. Maybe they have tiered rates maybe they have like contingency fee tracker and projection tool. Just let to go to the bank and borrow money against the cases they have open that it's settled like there's a lot of nuances isn't there. [00:40:11] Whereas if you were to have the need to do a lot of corms creation then I would and you were a Mac or a PC then it was like OK well then maybe we should focus on attacking our dimension. Built-in because you're going to be able to eliminate the work of you know two days' worth of paralegal time per week just automating these forms and you will have any errors. So where is the bulk of the work in the firm and how you leverage technology to eliminate or is it up as much of that as possible and site that? Jeena Cho: [00:40:52] Yeah I think that's an issue it's really kind of figuring out what it is that you do and finding solutions that are appropriate for what it is that you need rather than just being ikons hands and chai and then maybe just working with someone like you can really help to speed up that time not having to test 15 different products to make sure that to find the one that's actually going to market for you. [00:41:16] So I highly recommend working with you know consultants. I mean I don't know and I also like it's so we think there is this mentality like that we should do it all and we should know at all and we're very like a dense. Oh, so I know the listeners out there like crazy to go out there and like you know to get help when you need it out there and like you know consultants and experts like you that 10 million make lives easier for employers. Chelsey Lambert: [00:41:45] Yeah and it's really not as painful as it sounds. I mean most of the costs also that I do like this is the level of involvement I will submit as contact information for them through my website. [00:41:56] We get on the phone for about a half hour to an hour and then I give you a list of solutions and potential consultants work with because some people are with certified. Some people work with tabs. Some people are implementing Cosmo flex so you know here's your list of solutions that I think would fit into what you might best be suited for. Now your homework is to go demo them so that you don't have to demo you know the 27 different case management systems that are out there or you know if you're looking for a virtual receptionist you know now we've got a whole handful of virtual receptionists services it used to just be Hruby now there is answer 1. Now there is at Live Now there are other occasions that say even that space is starting to expand. [00:42:42] So you know and for some of those integrate you know it's like what's your end goal. OK. This is your potential stack. Like that's kind of what I like to call it it's like this is your software stack that you're going to run your business off of. And I recommend that you go talk to these people and here you know are your contacts that which like a lot of them on a first name basis with so I'm going to save you the trouble of having to go through the whole sales you know rigmarole go to these three companies come back to me if you have any questions and it's very rare that after that initial call someone backed me and says I need more help because in just that that talking out loud with someone who's seen a lot of these different tools we can arrive at a short list of options for you that make this selection process a lot easier. [00:43:31] So it's not even like I'm in intensive. You don't get involved with the consultant. And then once you have made your decision then I 1000 percent recommend especially if you've got a migration that needs to happen or you've got like a lot of custom fields that you want to invest the money in a consultant someone like Adriana Lin or as for global macro I.T. or affinity consulting or Yon's square one or like one of the hundreds of Clio consultants that they have all over the country if you're going that route or complex like all of these people have solutions and that money will be some of the best money that you have ever spent. [00:44:11] I'm a technology specialist and I pay for consultants to set my stuff up because I realize I'm like Okay we'll I can go in and I can fiddle with this for about 10 or 12 hours and it's still not going to be exactly the way that I want it where I can pay this person who does this all day for two hours of their time and it's going to be exactly how I want to know answers for me to find 10 or 12 hours over the course of you know it could take two months because you're always going to prioritize it. So finding 15-minute chunks is not an effective way to onboard into the software. Make that commitment. Spend the money to get a and then invest in using it to run your business. Jeena Cho: [00:44:56] Advise Chelsea for the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about you and your services. What are some of the best places to do that job? Chelsey Lambert: [00:45:04] Absolutely. Lax Tech Review is where you can find me. You can also find me on Twitter at Chelsea Lambert and at LAX Tech Review. There is a context for him as well as a link to my calendar. You're always more than welcome to enter your information or just go ahead. Schedule time for us chats. It's been a long 12 years in this space and any information that I can share that will help make someone else's life easier at the law firm or outside. Happy to do that. Jeena Cho: [00:45:43] My final question to you is the name of this podcast is called the resilient voice. What does it mean to be a resilient boy to you? Chelsey Lambert: [00:45:53] Oh wow. To be a resilient lawyer means to have the fortitude to continue into untap to serve the needs of your clients and to also recognize the opportunities for you to grow. Because it creates the growth creates additional resiliency in yourself and quality in the service that you provide to others. Jeena Cho: [00:46:27] Chelsea thank you so much for spending all of our time with me. I so appreciate the work that you're doing in the world. And I just appreciate you know and just great determination and thank you. Chelsey Lambert: [00:46:38] Oh thank you so much and thank you for everything that you do as well. It was an absolute pleasure to be able to include you in the book I recently published in hope that more and more juries download and learn about you as well. Closing: [00:46:56] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you've enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It's really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we'd love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.

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