Saved by the City

And if Russell Moore is a liberal, then what the heck are we? Our first guest for season six has us thinking about institutions. An exciting lead for a season opener, you say? It is! In part because this guest now leads an institution, Christianity Today, that both Katelyn and Roxy have some history with. But, not too long ago, he was an SBC bigwig — the president of its Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission — before, well, a lot of things went down. In 2015 ... and 2016 ... and pretty much every year after that. Check out our extensive coverage at RNS if you somehow missed it all and are curious. On this episode, we talk to Moore about why he left the SBC in 2021; how he thinks of his own legacy in that world, including the question of complicity; and trying to lead a Christian institution when it's tearing apart at the seams. GUEST: Russell Moore is editor in chief of Christianity Today and is the author of "Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America."

When you put religion on TV, you have to get religion consultants. Why even bother being accurate? Does Jesus look at someone to be healed with compassion—or anger? We end with a conversation about the term “minoritized” (vs. “minority”). Review of Brian's appearance on a Travel Channel show debunking a Phoenician inscription“Horror Shows Like Mayfair Witches Hire Occult Consultant”The Chosen: “Jesus Heals at the Pool” (clip)Jesus's anger problem in Mark 1:41 (for the opposite argument re: what Brian said)lectio difficiliorJesus the Exorcist“Sister Alice” and Aimee Semple McPherson on HBO's Perry MasonOn the language of “minoritized” vs. “minority”See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Saved By The City is proud to present an episode for the excellent podcast Weird Religion!In which our guests Leah Payne & Brian Doak discuss Deuteronomy Ch. 32, Moses Sings, and how Republicans want a Christian Nation.Moses sings a song that takes us…deep into the problem of Christian nationalism. Come for the most secretly controversial passage in the Bible; stay for Leah trying to be a therapist for Brian on the problem of hating Christian nationalism but fearing that we need it for social cohesion. And a scholarly theory on the evolution from polytheism to monotheism in ancient Israel.Deuteronomy ch. 32: sons of Israel, or sons of GODS?!The new survey, showing 50% of Republicans like Christian NationalismThe Gospel of J. Edgar HooverKristen Kobes du MezProfessor James Byrd on war and social cohesionPsalm 82, many gods? Mark Smith, Princeton Seminary, on the Origins of Biblical Monotheism: See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

... and very messy.It's not everyday Saved by the City hosts Katelyn and Roxy get invited to be on documentaries, but it is every Hillsong documentary. The latest documentary treatment of the global megachurch's descent into scandal recently premiered on FX and Hulu. And it featured our very own Ms. Beaty with some real zingers.It also featured Carl Lentz. Like a lot of Carl Lentz.The disgraced former pastor of Hillsong NYC took center stage once again and not everyone is happy about it. We talk with Janice Lagata, a former volunteer at Hillsong in Manhattan and fellow interviewee for the documentary, about how she felt after watching and why it prompted her to write an open letter to the director.GUEST:Janice Lagata is a musician, writer and host of two exvangelical podcasts: "God Has Not Given" and "Bad Words." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mary, the mentor of Jesus.A lifetime of Bible reading and the women who surrounded Jesus still feel so flat, so much a part of the flannel graph background. Why? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore how their perceptions of the women in the New Testament were formed and why it's still so difficult to conceive of them as real, three-dimensional people. They are joined by New Testament scholar, Nijay K. Gupta, who offers more than a few clues about how and why the women around Jesus became side characters.GUEST:Nijay K. Gupta is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and author of several books, including his newest, "Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

ENTP! 2 wing 3! Let's talk about you and me!We'll admit, a podcast episode all about our personalities might be a bit self-indulgent. But also fun! So bear with us as we dive headfirst into the various and sundry methods for categorizing oneself.This week, Katelyn and Roxy go old school (Myers-Briggs), new school (StrengthsFinder) and a little woo-woo (Enneagram, just kidding, don't come after us). Plus, a journey into the desert with our spiritual guide — and podcast producer — Jonathan Woodward. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Let's go shatter a glass steeple or two, shall we?When it comes to women in ministry, the gains have been ever so gradual. And at the top levels of leadership — from seminary faculty and deans to senior clergy positions — women seem to have hit a wall. Fewer than 25 percent of seminary faculty and deans are women, as are 11 percent of presidents, according to the Association of Theological Schools.This week Katelyn and Roxy are joined by two of those rarities — the Rev. Drs. Lakeesha Walrond and Serene Jones — who have shattered plenty of stained glass ceilings in their careers. As seminary presidents in New York City, the two are partnering together, hoping to offer more opportunities for future faith leaders. We talk to them about the realities of ministry today, the stakes women in seminary face and why we should actually be worrying about the men.GUESTS:Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond is the first Black woman to serve as president of New York Theological Seminary and a preaching pastor at First Corinthians Baptist Church NYC.Rev. Dr. Serene Jones is the first woman to serve as president of Union Theological Seminary and the author of "Call It Grace: Finding Meaning in a Fractured World."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You sound like your mother.Is an essential project of a daughter's life trying to understand her mother? On this episode of the podcast — on this week of Mother's Day — we reflect on the lessons we learned from our moms, how we saw them as teens, how we see them now (SPOILER: it's changed). Plus, we are joined by Marcie Alvis Walker in a wide ranging conversation about the power of motherhood — for good and ill — and the generational legacies we carry as daughters who sometimes become mothers.And, you might have guessed it, an appearance by Karen & Sharon themselves!GUESTS:Marcie Alvis Walker is the author of the new book “Everybody Come Alive” and is the creator of the popular Instagram account Black Coffee with White Friends.E. Karen Beaty is a retired children's librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn's mom.)Sharon Stone is a retired pre-K and Kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years' experience. (And she's Roxy's mom.)See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Two words: chubby bunny.From the games that were downright gross to the Mountain Dew fueled lock-ins, youth group culture was its own special kinda weird. But was it good?On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy reminiscence on the lessons we learned as teens in our church basements (we shared a certain oldest daughter perfectionism that youth group culture seemed to heighten, even spiritualize). We're joined by author and researcher Sheila Wray Gregoire who shares some of her findings on how youth group teachings affect teen girls well into adulthood — for better and worse.Plus: news from the Brio beat!GUEST:Sheila Wray Gregoire is the author of several books including "She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up," a followup to the "The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You've Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended." You can find more of her work at BareMarriage.com.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's an evangelical origin story.Who are the evangelicals? It's a contested question with a long history of answers — answers that depend largely on who is holding the mic at any given time.In this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy examine our own roles within the traditional gatekeeping institutions of evangelicalism and reflect on how we feel about them now. We are joined by Isaac B. Sharp for a tour of evangelicalism's defining decades and how the movement was shaped in part by who was kicked out.GUEST:Isaac B. Sharp is the author of the book "The Other Evangelicals: A Story of Liberal, Black, Progressive, Feminist, and Gay Christians — and the Movement that Pushed Them Out." He is a visiting assistant professor at Union Theological Seminary and the director of online and part-time programs there.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Maybe beauty could be a little less fleeting?This week, Katelyn and Roxy dive face-first into the prickly subject of cosmetic procedures. They're not just for Hollywood stars and Dallas housewives anymore. But just because everyone is getting a little work done, should we? Would the Proverbs 31 woman — the biblical model for all things feminine — go under the knife? The laser? The needle?All this, plus skin care guru Jamie B. Golden on the do's and don'ts (and maybes) on your dermatologist's extensive/expensive menu.GUEST:Jamie B. Golden is a podcaster (give a listen to "The Bible Binge" and "The Popcast") and a skin care enthusiast (check out her 10-step skin care routine).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Living large on the Lord.$150,000 on a three-day luxury retreat in Cancun. $37,000 on flowers. $13,000 on high tea. $16,000 on custom skateboards.These are just a few of the line items recently uncovered in Hillsong financial statements. Last month, a leader in Australia's Parliament, armed with 17 binders full of documents, accused Hillsong leaders of breaking financial laws in Australia and beyond, specifically of fraud, money laundering and tax evasion.We figured: we've covered sex and power at Hillsong, seems about time to do money. On this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy take a look at the sprawling implications of Hillsong's newest scandal — not just for the Australian megachurch, but for wealthy pastors everywhere.When it comes to luxury in the house of the Lord, turns out we've got a lot of thoughts.Plus, the results of a Twitter poll — because you all had plenty to say too!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sometimes going through the motions is the whole point.On this episode, which drops amid Holy Week, Roxy and Katelyn reflect on the beauty, meaning, and mystery they have found in the church liturgy. Instead of feeling rote, the rhythms and prayers of the church have become nourishing for us. Kind of like a favorite meal. They are joined by the Most Rev. Michael Curry, the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the American branch of the Anglican Communion. He talks about his approach to evangelism, his hopes for the church as it could be facing schism, and how he tries to ask 'what would Jesus do?' even when the answer is rather annoying.GUEST: The Most Rev. Michael Curry is presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the first person of color to serve in the role. He is an author, activist, and appeared on the global stage as he officiated Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's wedding in 2018.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

But did the era of heroin chic ever really end?Low rise jeans are trying to make a comeback — does that mean the bodies that look good in them must too? (Aka: teensy tiny itty bitty very flat stomach bodies.)On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore how the body ideals promoted during our teen years are still informing the way we see our adult bodies. We look at how some things have changed — because there has been some progress! — and how others have stayed frustratingly toxic. Plus, we're joined by Cole Arthur Riley for a lovely conversation on how attending to our flesh and blood bodies can help us heal inside and out.GUEST:Cole Arthur Riley is a writer and poet and the creator of the Black Liturgies project. She is also the author of the NY Times bestseller "This Here Flesh: Spirituality, Liberation, and the Stories that Make Us." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Let's get a drink sometime!New York's a drinking town. Happy hours. Boozy brunches. Martinis and oysters. The city's social life revolves around artisan cocktails and bubbly toasts and late night dive bars. And while the pandemic may have put a screeching halt to the social side of that life, it didn't stop the flow of booze. Restaurants offered craft cocktails to go, the sidewalks became open carry and delivery drinks were an app away. Drinking went from social to solo and it was during that time that both Katelyn and Roxy began to wonder if all this imbibing was really OK.On this episode, we examine our relationships with alcohol and the changes we've made since the pandemic. We're joined by Sarah Bessey — a self-described "evangelist" for the sober life — who gave up drinking a few years ago and hasn't looked back since.GUESTSarah Bessey is the author of several books, including Jesus Feminist and the co-founder of the Evolving Faith conference. You can read her weekly musings at her substack: Sarah Bessey's Field Notes. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Watch out for the Cabbage Patch Kids!Katelyn and Roxy are back for a new season of Saved By the City and are joined by guest Jinger Duggar Vuolo. Listeners may know her as one of the siblings on the reality TV show “19 Kids and Counting," or maybe from the "Free Jinger" movement online.In addition to her childhood being well-documented, Jinger also grew up within a Christian movement that was, shall we say, a bit … strict. As followers of Bill Gothard and his Institute of Basic Life Principles, the Duggars emphasized modesty, submission to authority and, uh, avoiding music with a worldly beat.On this episode, Jinger shares how she has stayed Christian even as she's attempted to separate God from the fundamentalism she grew up with.Plus: Katelyn's got a pop quiz for Roxy! And we ponder our prospects as reality TV stars.GUEST:Jinger Duggar Vuolo is the sixth child in the Duggar family, featured on TLC's "19 Kids and Counting." She is the author of the new book "Becoming Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith From Fear."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Happy holidays!In New York City, the phrase has nothing to do with a culture war and everything to do with being a good neighbor. A recent NY Times article describes the city as "a swirling kaleidoscope of faiths," and living within that colorful milieu has profoundly shaped our posture toward other religions. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss the ways New York City has exposed us to the beauty and wisdom of other faith traditions, while introducing us to the importance of interfaith work in a country that will come to more and more resemble the pluralism of our city.We are joined by Simran Jeet Singh, a fellow transplant to New York, who is dedicated to anti-racism and interfaith cooperation. As a Sikh, Singh knows what it's like to be the minority at the interfaith table and has helpful insights into how Christians, as the majority, can be good partners and allies.GUEST: Simran Jeet Singh is executive director for the Aspen Institute's Religion and Society Program, an RNS columnist, and author of the book "The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The year is not over yet but we're ready to hand in the verdict.This week, Katelyn and Roxy reflect on the year that was 2022 (better than 2020!) and share some highlights and lowlights in various categories. Favorite book? Check. Favorite TV show? Yep. Favorite friendship moment? Yes please. Strangest thing you saw on the subway? Of course.Plus, we share some goals for ourselves — and the podcast! — as we look toward 2023.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's been 2000 years. Enough already.Abusing power is an ancient genre of sin — and using religion to justify abuse is perhaps the oldest trick in that book. We know it won't stop with this podcast episode, but, here we go anyway. Katelyn and Roxy address some of the difficulties of identifying spiritual abuse (no, it isn't just "church hurt") and examine how it has manifested in a few more recent and notable scandals. Veteran psychologist and expert on religious trauma, Diane Langberg, joins the episode and helps put the "pastoral" back in the pulpit.GUEST:Diane Langberg is a psychologist with more than 50 years of experience working with trauma survivors. She's the author most recently of "Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Silly, shallow, serious, interstellar … we said we'd take any and all of your questions. And we get some good ones!Katelyn has been on jury duty. We had Thanksgiving break. Roxy is on vacation this week. So it seemed like a good time to let our listeners do some of the work for us. We took to social media to seek your "ask me anything" — AMA — style questions.And we totally go there.Plus, here to deliver your questions (and a few of his own) is a very special guest, out from behind the curtain, the Wizard of Audio, our producer Jonathan Woodward!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We do love a journalism movie.It's been five years since the NY Times exposé of Harvey Weinstein sparked the global #MeToo movement. And the new movie, "She Said," documents the two-steps-forward, one-step-back work of investigative reporters Megan Twohey and Jodi Kantor in uncovering the extent of Weinstein's abuses. "Pump it into my veins," is how Katelyn describes the movie. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss the new movie, the book it's based on, and where we are now.GUESTS:Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and editor for The Washington Post. She is the author of the new book Rethinking Sex: A Provocation.Alissa Wilkinson is a film, culture and food writer. She is the senior culture reporter at Vox.com, as well as an associate professor at The King's College. She is the author of the new book “Salty: Lessons on eating, drinking and living from revolutionary women.”See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Unmarried women are ruining everything! At least according to some people who went to Twitter, Fox News, and God only knows where else to bemoan last week's midterm election results — placing a large share of their disappointment at the feet of unmarried women, who broke strongly for Democrats. Suffice it to say, their words were not very nice. Anyway, politics aside, we think their vitriol was misguided — and we have the data to prove it!On this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy dive into some research on the state of unmarried women and the church. We discuss the importance of "thick community" and the false promises of independence.Plus, we talk with Karen González, on how to move beyond "welcoming immigrants" to relationships of mutuality and kinship.GUEST:Karen González is an immigrant advocate, writer — and unmarried woman, by the way, who is kicking butt and taking names — and author of the new book "Beyond Welcome: Centering Immigrants in Our Christian Response to Immigration." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You're still young! You're too picky! Just put yourself out there more!We've heard some doozies. And, while most friends are well-meaning (if occasionally passive-aggressive), they aren't always aware of how these phrases can bump against some tender spots. You've heard of "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days," but in this episode, Katelyn and Roxy bring you ...How to Lose Your Single Friends in 10 Words (Or Less).But, not to worry, we don't want to leave you feeling speechless. We also offer some thoughts on what to say instead and share our most meaningful experiences of feeling supported and loved by our married friends with kids.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's the motherlode episode.Most women of a certain age (our age) have kids. They just do. And we don't. Living in that reality can be complicated — it's fun to be an "auntie," but it's not the same as being a mom — there's grief and there's gain. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy grapple with their own winding paths to life without kids. We share what's it's meant to mourn that loss while finding ways to embrace the gifts of a childfree life.We're joined by Erin S. Lane who helps us challenge the default scripts of motherhood that society — and churches! — so often impose on women's lives.GUEST:Erin S. Lane is a writer, theologian, and author of "Someone Other Than a Mother." She has a masters in gender studies from Duke Divinity School and works as a vocational retreat facilitator.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is this real blood we're drinking?There's an old joke that a religion is a cult plus time. So are we just late comers to a very old cult? Katelyn and Roxy explore this plus all the other scary things — like aging! — in our All Hallow's Eve episode. And religion reporter Sam Kestenbaum joins to talk vampires, mummies, QAnon devotees, and groups with some cult-y vibes (including maybe ... some of the churches we've attended).GUEST:Sam Kestenbaum is a religion reporter who has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, RNS and many other outlets about fringe and fascinating religious groups.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

The midterms ... truly the spookiest season of them all.Everyone seems to be talking about Christian nationalism right now. The phrase is in the air. And, while, there's plenty of focus on the evangelical vote every election cycle, this is not quite the same. Religion News Service, and especially religion and politics correspondent Jack Jenkins, has long been covering this new iteration of Christian nationalism. So, for this special episode, in the run up to the midterms, Roxy talks with Jack about his (award-winning) reporting on Christian nationalism over the past few years.What is it? Where did it come from? And why is it playing such an outsized role in American politics right now?GUEST:Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering the intersection of religion and politics as well as U.S. Catholics. He is the author of “American Prophets: The Religious Roots of Progressive Politics and the Ongoing Fight for the Soul of the Country.”This episode was produced with support from The Stiefel Freethought Foundation.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Can men and women just be friends or does the sex always get in the way?Billy Graham and Billy Crystal both seemed to believe the answer was: nope and yes, always.A rare instance of overlap in the evangelical-Hollywood Venn diagram, perhaps. But maybe it shouldn't be? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss their own friendships with men: when and how they've worked — and why they sometimes haven't. And we explore the vision Christianity offers for non-romantic, opposite sex relationships. Plus: course joking! Whatever that means.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Oh, the pressure of perfection.Is there anyone who reads the Bible with the intensity of an evangelical 12-year-old? So asks Charles Marsh, our guest for this episode and the author of "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir."We resonate.Katelyn and Roxy reflect on the amped up nature of an evangelical upbringing, recalling childhood fantasies of martyrdom, the high stakes proposal of eternal salvation or damnation, and Christian bumper stickers.GUEST:Charles Marsh is a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia and director of the Project on Lived Theology. Charles grew up as a preacher's kid in the Deep South in the 1970s and writes about those experiences in his new book "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Let's be honest: Christians seem uniquely bad at having a good time.We get it: slippery slopes, dens of iniquity, roads to hell, etc. But maybe we've taken the Puritan instinct a little too far? Made everything that's fun suspect? Maybe it's time to lighten up a bit, look around at all God's created and go delight in it? Well, we'd like to give it a try anyway.This week, "fun coach" Annie F. Downs joins Katelyn and Roxy to go deep on being lighthearted. She makes the case for why fun is essential to our calling. Plus: speed dating!GUEST:Annie F. Downs is a NYT Bestselling author, self-appointed "fun coach" and founder of the "That Sounds Fun" podcast network. Check out her newest book, "Chase the Fun: 100 Days to Discover Fun Right Where You Are." See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It all started innocently enough: with evangelistic aerobics.As many famous Christians do, Beth Moore entered ministry with a simple desire: to teach people about Jesus. In the 1980s, that meant choreographing aerobics routines to Contemporary Christian Music. (Think Jazzercise for Jesus.) It also meant teaching a women's Bible study class at church that quickly mushroomed in size. Soon, Beth was speaking at churches across the country, publishing several best-selling Bible studies, and starting her own ministry, Living Proof.Many leaders would envy this kind of ascendant reach. As it turns out, Beth wouldn't wish superstardom on anyone. As she told Katelyn and Roxy in this week's episode, she doesn't think anyone can thrive under an intense spotlight; they can only hope to survive it.Beth has indeed survived it, using her platform since 2016 to speak up on behalf of women and people of color who have been hurt and marginalized in the evangelical church. Her public advocacy has received scrutiny from SBC leaders and online gadflies, but Beth is surviving because of the support of her family, plus simple joys like using her cast-iron skillet, visiting her neighbor's donkey, and making batches of jelly.GUESTS:Beth Moore is the founder of Living Proof Ministries and the author of several Bible studies and books, including the forthcoming memoir All My Knotted-Up Life.Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn's new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

American Idol: Worship Leader Edition.In the past two decades, worship music has dominated the Christian music charts, bringing churches like Hillsong into the evangelical mainstream and making millions through licensing and sold-out concerts. Worshipers come seeking a profound encounter with God and an ecstatic experience. That is often true for the performers as well.But when ministry, commerce, and relationships are blended, it can be hard for industry insiders to stay true to their craft – and to themselves. Such is the case for recording artist William Matthews, who wrote and recorded songs with Bethel Church, a large, influential charismatic congregation in Redding, California. William joined Katelyn and Roxy to discuss life in the performer spotlight, the physical, mental, and spiritual toll it takes, and what happens when you can no longer support the version of Christianity being taught from the stage.GUESTS:William Matthews is a singer songwriter and recording artist who currently serves as music director of New Abbey Church in LA. Learn more at his Spotify page.Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn's new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Is there any hope for toxic celebrity pastors?Stories abound of pastors who started to believe their own hype – and ended up capsizing their church and hurting a lot of people. There are spiritual and relational costs to putting leaders on pedestals.But celebrity dynamics also are bad for pastors themselves. Many find themselves “alone at the top,” without real friendship and accountability, which can foster various addictions and abuses. In the second episode of our summer series, Roxy and Katelyn are joined by spiritual formation expert Chuck DeGroat, who has counseled hundreds of pastors in crisis. Chuck explains what happens when leaders are put in the spotlight too young or for the wrong reasons, how narcissistic tendencies show up in the pastorate, the deployment of cheap grace, and how ministry leaders can start the inner work to heal – if they are willing.GUEST:Chuck DeGroat is professor of pastoral care and spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and author most recently of When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Learn more at ChuckDeGroat.net.Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn's new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On booty photos followed by Bible verses…It's never been easier for women with massive talent to share their work and build a community around it. Social media have democratized the work of teaching and preaching. Instagram, with its aesthetic, aspirational vibes, has proven to be the most popular social media platform for Christian women influencers.In the first episode of a four-part summer series on celebrity in the church (also the topic of Katelyn's new book), Roxy and Katelyn are joined by author Hannah Anderson to chat about the platform that's equally fun and frustrating. Anderson helps unpack the unspoken rules that Christian women must follow to wield authority online. We're tempted to roll our eyes at some of the rules (such as the ubiquity of beachy waves), but there's a lot more at play: what Hannah Anderson calls women's ‘superpower' in building communities of women for good causes.GUESTS:Hannah Anderson is author of several books on spirituality, including the most recent All That's Good: Recovering the Lost Art of Discernment. She is cohost of the Persuasion podcast, a great “thought leader” Twitter follow, and lives with her family in the Blue Ridge Mountains.Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn's new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Because we all need to eat.On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore the role of the dinner party in family, friendship and the resistance. Sure, fixing food can be tedious and eating it entirely unglamorous but good food and good drink can also be a spark — a spark for creativity, for reflection, for the best kinds of rich conversation. We are joined by film critic, author and dinner host extraordinaire Alissa Wilkinson for lessons on eating well and living loud. GUEST:Alissa Wilkinson is a film, culture and food writer. She is the senior culture reporter at Vox.com, as well as an associate professor at The King's College. She is the author of the new book "Salty: Lessons on eating, drinking and living from revolutionary women."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We are one week away from the Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting and it promises to be an interesting time.Aside from another contentious presidential election, the nation's largest Protestant denomination must also reckon with the explosive findings from a sweeping sex abuse investigation. On this week's episode, Roxy is joined by her good friend and a son of the Southern Baptists, Jonathan Merritt. The two discuss their own SBC upbringings and how it feels to watch your childhood denomination go so off the rails. They are also joined by SBC insider Ben Cole, who gives a preview of what to expect next week in Anaheim.GUESTS:Jonathan Merritt is one of America's most trusted and popular writers on religion, culture, and politics. He is an award-winning contributor for The Atlantic, a contributing editor and monthly columnist for Religion News Service. He is author of several critically-acclaimed books including "Learning to Speak God from Scratch: Why Sacred Words are Vanishing - and How We Can Revive Them."Benjamin Cole is the founder of Longview Strategies consulting firm. On Twitter, he's @BaptistBlogger, where he has a lively feed. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

At the end of 2021, the NY Police Department reported a 361 percent increase in anti-Asian hate crimes since the year prior.New York City is the first place we've lived among so many Asian American neighbors — and the place we've been introduced to the rich diversity of the Asian American experience. Yet, it's also been the place that's opened our eyes to the violence, harmful stereotypes and erasure our AAPI neighbors face. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with Nikki Toyama-Szeto about how she's learned to lead authentically from both her race and gender — finding the gifts God has given her through both. She also shares some of her family's story as survivors of the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. during World War II.GUEST:Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the executive director at Christians for Social Action, the author of God of Justice and host of the 20 Minute Takes podcast.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Recycle. Upcycle. Bicycle. Look, most of us really want to be good, ethical people. We want to make the world a better place. We want our clothes to be sustainably made by people receiving fair wages. We don't want the ocean to be full of plastic islands. And we'd rather chickens roamed free of cages.But the complexities of our modern, globalized world make being a good person more difficult than ever. Honestly, it can feel overwhelming! And discouraging! Katelyn and Roxy talk with Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a longtime activist dedicated to disrupting oppressive systems, about how to pursue a lifestyle of justice without losing your sanity. Plus: A round of 'Do-Gooder Jeopardy'GUESTSandra Maria Van Opstal is a second-generation Latina pastor, activist and author and the executive director of Chasing Justice, a BIPOC-led movement that mobilizes Christians to live justly. Sandra is the author of The Next Worship, as well as contributor to the New York Times bestselling book A Rhythm of Prayer.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Over the weekend, news broke of another mass shooting, this time in Buffalo, New York. The shooting took place at a grocery store in a predominantly Black neighborhood. 10 people were killed and three others injured. The 18 year old gunman had a racial slur written on the barrel of his gun and livestreamed the shootings. Later, his 180 page manifesto was discovered, which was filled with white supremacist conspiracy theories.Just the day before, we had sat down with historian Jemar Tisby to discuss the hysteria over critical race theory and why racial progress always incites backlash.These are not unrelated events. And in the wake of another white supremacist terrorist attack, we believe it is unconscionable to continue to claim that critical race theory is the real danger in our country and churches.At a time when reports of racially motivated hate crimes are on the rise, we want to ask: why are so many Americans concerned about CRT? And what is the role and responsibility of white Christians in this moment?GUEST: Jemar Tisby is a public historian and the author of a number of books, including the acclaimed, "The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church's Complicity in Racism." You can also sign up for his newsletter at: jemartisby.substack.comSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

[acf field="sbtc-embed"][acf field="podcast-link-buttons"]Lift your hands up to the sky.Whether "Shout to the Lord," gives you nostalgic warm fuzzies or sends a chill up your spine, if you've ever owned a WOW CD, this episode is for you. For many who grew up in evangelical spaces, the music was as defining as any sermon or youth group Bible study. There was the worship music on Sundays, the Christian ska for Friday nights and, if you like REM, maybe check out Newsboys?Katelyn and Roxy grew up in, we'd argue, the glory days of CCM (Contemporary Christian Music), but our relationship to that particular music of our youth is, well, complicated. We talk with theologian and CCM guru, Leah Payne, about the evolving industry and how worship music became big business. We're also joined by pastor and songwriter David Gungor to explore the formative power of worship liturgies.GUESTS:Leah Payne is a theology professor at Portland Seminary, cohost of the Weird Religion podcast, and author of a forthcoming book on the history of CCM.David Gungor is the worship pastor at Good Shepherd New York. He is part of the band The Brilliance and helped found The Good Shepherd Collective.This episode features the song “I Hear Silence” from the Good Shepherd Collective. Find their albums wherever you listen to your music.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We need to stop playing hit and run with people's faith.Deconstructing. Dismantling. Decolonizing. The last several years have felt like all the Ds all the time. It's, well, disorienting, destabilizing, dismaying ... OK, you get the picture. The point is: we're all feeling a little shaky as we try to navigate tough questions that often cut to the heart of what we thought we believed.On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with author and theologian Candice Marie Benbow who has some strong words of wisdom — and conviction — for anyone publicly critiquing the church. If you want to point out problems, she says, you bear some responsibility for guiding people to solutions.Plus: we explore all the metaphors.GUEST:Candice Marie Benbow is a theologian who situates her work at the intersections of beauty, faith, feminism and culture. She is the author of Red Lip Theology: For Church Girls Who've Considered Tithing to the Beauty Supply Store When Sunday Morning Isn't Enough.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What the holy heck is happening at Hillsong?The last six weeks have seen a seesaw of scandalous revelations between Hillsong U.S. and Hillsong Australia. The resignation of global senior pastor Brian Houston after revelations of sexual indiscretion. The discovery of allegations of rape by a junior staffer against a former pastor. The departure of several prominent U.S. pastors and Hillsong affiliated churches. A not-so-flattering documentary. And then the leaked report of the Hillsong NYC investigation, which painted a picture of a church leadership rife with abuse, sexual misconduct and secrecy.This week, Katelyn and Roxy break down the Hillsong breakdown — and explore some of the systemic issues that have seemed to haunt the church from the beginning. Roxy gives a recap of her reporting on Hillsong from the last few years — beginning with the firing of Carl Lentz, hype-priest and Justin Bieber confidante, for his “tequila-drenched love affair.”And we dig into some questions core to Katelyn's upcoming book on Christian celebrities. Including of course, just how deep can a pastor's V-neck go?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When did you last feel really alive?Chances are you weren't holding a phone at the time.Maybe it was the pandemic. Or maybe it was inevitable. But we've started to notice, with increasing alarm, that our attention spans are shrinking, our imaginations feel parched, scrolling has become the default during any downtime.On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy take an honest look at the ways life has begun to feel diminished — even as our devices offer more and more. We are joined by Andy Crouch, a longtime friend and a mentor to us both, to talk tech and the meaning of life ... or, perhaps more accurately, the meaning of living.GUEST:Andy Crouch is the author of several books, including his most recent "The Life We're Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World." He is a partner for theology and culture at Praxis, an organization that works as a creative engine for redemptive entrepreneurship See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's rough out there.It might be twitterpated season, but we're not feeling the love. We've spent most of our adulthood single and, truth is, we're kinda settling in. Life is full and meaningful. We've got plans. Is it worth holding space for the possibility of love?On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy gauge our hope-o-meters when it comes to romance, find them rather on the low side and go in search of a hope infusion. Enter: Faitth Brooks. Faitth gives us a glimpse into her pandemic rom-com — and offers some words of wisdom for the still waiting. Plus, everyone's favorites: Sharon and Karen join the show!GUESTS:Faitth Brooks is a writer, speaker, activist, avid traveler, and co-host of the Melanated Faith podcast.E. Karen Beaty is a retired children's librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn's mom.)Sharon Stone is a pre-K and kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years' experience. (And she's Roxy's mom.)See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Not your therapist either.It's been said (by A.W. Tozer) that what you think about God might just be the most important thing about you. But where do our ideas about God come from? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy do a little prodding at our conceptions of God and where we got them (a harder task than you might think!).And we're joined by a therapist, of course.Krispin Mayfield is a licensed professional counselor who explores the intersections of faith and attachment science. Krispin explains how our attachment styles can inform our view of God and, consequently, our relationship with God. GUEST:Krispin Mayfield is licensed professional counselor and the author of Attached to God: A Practical Guide to Deeper Spiritual Experience. He is also a co-host on two podcasts, the Prophetic Imagination Station and Attached to the Invisible. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We're not looking for a rebound.We've talked a lot — both on and off the podcast — about purity culture. We've critiqued the way it treated our bodies, our sexuality and even our futures. It's taken work (and some therapy!) to untangle many of the deeply toxic lessons of purity culture from our views on sex. But here's the thing: after purity culture, we're not totally sure where to turn for a better alternative. Mainstream sexual ethics are confusing, without a script and quickly changing. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy are joined once again by author Christine Emba. Christine came on during season one as we took a hard look at purity culture. Since then, she's thought a lot about sex! (Because she wrote a book on it.) And how modern ideas of liberated sex can be just as damaging as restrictive purity codes.GUEST:Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and editor for The Washington Post. She is the author of the new book Rethinking Sex: A Provocation.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Et tu, CT?Nary a week seems to go by these days without revelations of leaders behaving badly in Christian organizations. Last week, the headlines hit close to home when a new report came out from the the flagship evangelical magazine — and our former workplace — detailing a history of sexual harassment going unchecked within Christianity Today's leadership. The report was heartbreaking to read — and yet not entirely surprising for either of us. In this episode, we react to the report and reflect on our experiences at CT, as well as at other male-dominated Christian organizations. We also explore some tough questions — about the ways in which theology can undergird a sexist workplace culture, how internalized misogyny can keep women silent and what we might do differently if we worked there now.Read the whole report from Christianity Today here.A post-production clarification: While the CT report indicated that HR didn't add formal disciplinary updates to former employees' files, HR leaders did take notes.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I can't go in. Nobody is wearing a mask.Look, pandemic polarization was a real thing. We all saw it: school board blow ups, fist fights on air planes, anti-vax protests at state capitols. But for most of us, the fallout was more personal, closer to home. We felt conflicted over whether to attend a friend's wedding. Our parents cancelled Christmas — or didn't. An aunt is no longer on speaking terms with a cousin over vaccine differences.But do you ever worry ... maybe all those judgment calls you had to make made you judgmental?Katelyn and Roxy are back for season three and they are joined by the fabulous podcasting duo Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers from Pantsuit Politics to discuss, well, the politics of the pandemic. But, more really, whether there's a path forward together. Can we heal the deep divides between us? And what will that take from me?GUESTS:Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers are the hosts of Pantsuit Politics podcast, named by Apple Podcasts as one of the Best Shows of 2021. They are also the authors of "I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening): A Guide to Grace-Filled Political Conversation" and the forthcoming "Now What?: How to Move Forward When We're Divided (about Basically Everything)." Learn more about streaming the podcast as well as their books and live events. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Philip Yancey was deconstructing before deconstructing was cool.Much ado has been made in recent weeks about deconstruction — particularly from pastors and leaders who decry it as "trendy" or a slippery slope to sin. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss their own experiences questioning the Christian faith, the evangelical church and the teachings handed down to them from both pulpit and pen. They are joined by author Philip Yancey, something of an evangelical darling himself, whose books have long been a guide for the doubting Christian.Plus: some thoughts from the Twitter hive mind on what pastors should know about why people deconstruct.GUEST:Philip Yancey is the author of 25 books, including "The Jesus I Never Knew," "What's So Amazing About Grace?" and his most recent book and first memoir: "Where the Light Fell."See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's an age-old question for transplants the world over — at what point does your chosen city become home?It's that time of year — when the holly is hung and the carols are sung and the wayward wanderers return from places far flung. There's nothing like going home for the holidays to make a person wonder where they really belong. In this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss how New York City has come to feel like home ... but so too does Ohio and Colorado. How do we create a new home as adults while holding onto the traditions and values of the places and people that formed us?The hosts are joined by Elizabeth Passarella, a southern evangelical transplant who moved to NYC more than 20 years ago. She's embraced the big city grit — without losing that southern charm.GUEST:Elizabeth Passsarella is a contributing editor for Southern Living, where she writes the "Social Graces" column, and a former editor at Real Simple and Vogue. She is the author of Good Apple: Tales of a Southern Evangelical in New York.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Mary did you know we'd soften all your hard edges? Temper your anger? Moderate your radicalism?To be a woman has always meant being caught between expectation and reality — between all that society says you should be and all that you believe you are not. In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask themselves what they like about being women — and how embracing those qualities can be revolutionary. They are joined by author Kaya Oakes to talk about how women — past and present — are so often being shaped into the image men want. Including the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. GUEST:Kaya Oakes is an award-winning journalist and the author of several books, including her newest: The Defiant Middle: How Women Claim Life's In-Betweens to Remake the World. She teaches writing at UC Berkeley and speaks regularly on topics related to religion, writing and feminism.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Seven is a holy number, after all. Growing up evangelical in the 1990s meant purity rings and teen study Bibles and focusing on the family. But it also meant participating in activities and events that were part of larger cultural forces we were very unaware of at the time. Katelyn and Roxy reflect back on the seminal moments of their own evangelical journeys in the late 20th and early 21st century — and examine how those events not only shaped them, but evangelicalism writ large.GUESTS:A whole lotta nostalgia. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.