Podcasts about puritan

Today in the studio we have a very special item: a single page from a copy of the first Bible printed in Colonial America. Mamusse Wunneetupanatamwe Up-Biblum God, also known as the Eliot Indian Bible, is a translation of the Geneva Bible into Natick, a previously unwritten dialect spoken by the Algonqian peoples of Massachusetts (British publishers held a monopoly on the publication of English-language Bibles, so none were printed in America until after the revolution). This Bible was the work of John Eliot, a Puritan missionary, and a team of Algonquin translators. Printed in Cambridge it took over 14 years to produce. You can view the full Bible here and learn more about its laborious, painstaking creation on today's episode.

Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be directLet Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD? Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program,  Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yogaFULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.1 (55s):I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.1 (1m 47s):I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?1 (2m 28s):So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.1 (3m 8s):But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?2 (3m 36s):Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind1 (3m 39s):Of invest?2 (3m 40s):$7 and 50 cents.1 (3m 42s):What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then2 (3m 51s):If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,1 (3m 54s):Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.1 (4m 38s):And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise2 (5m 7s):You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,1 (5m 48s):Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.2 (6m 7s):Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like1 (6m 11s):Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,2 (6m 39s):No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.1 (7m 12s):It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I wanted to call him Dr. Craig. And he was like, no, that is not my name. And, and I was like, this guy is such a douche, but really he was setting a boundary saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not your friend. I'm actually not your dad. I'm not your, this isn't, we're working. We're doing serious work here. And it's either Craig or Dr. Pierce, but you can't. And at the time I was like 21 or something. I don't know what I was, but I thought what a douche, but now I'm like, oh, he actually was, was trying to help me.2 (8m 1s):Let's just get this out of the way. This is how I expect to be referred to this is how much I expect to be paid. My thing about coaches recently is I feel like everybody is doing this group delusion about, like, we can't go to therapy. So we have to say, I mean, we could pay more for a coach than we might for a therapist. We could be more revealing with a coach that we were therapists. It's just turned into the stigma of like, well, I don't want to go to therapy, but you know, I want to have a coach. And the problem with that is it's so wildly unregulated.1 (8m 34s):Yes,2 (8m 34s):Exactly. If anybody can call themselves a coach,1 (8m 37s):Right. And even this, this coach that I saw was like, yeah, it's wild Lynn regulated. And I understand that, you know, so, so there are some, you know, weird coaches and she's lovely and she's trying to make a living. The other thing that is so clear to me is everyone is trying to make a living. So there is right. Everyone's trying, I give them points for trying, like you she's trying to have a coaching business. So, so right. I don't fault her for it, but I did. I was like, so shocked that the language, I was like, oh, here we go. She's going to say the exact thing that this other coach said. So, duh, there's all kinds of like classes that for free structure that could the coaches taste.1 (9m 24s):Are you going to see her again? I mean, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no. I told her, I was like, you know, I'm just really not in a position to do coaching right now. And I'm not, I have a therapy. I have a new therapist. Let me just pay the therapist who told me what our fee was. So it was interesting. The other thing that I think was interesting is like I took, the reason I met this coach was I took a workshop on a free workshop on imposter syndrome, which is another like thing that people are really throwing around now is imposter syndrome. And self-sabotage those kinds of phrases. So I took an imposter syndrome workshop, lovely workshop. And then they said, you know, we're going to have a raffle and see who gets a free coaching session.1 (10m 5s):Well, we all, did. We all won the RAF. I mean,2 (10m 14s):Oh my God. I mean, is everything a play Like a performance piece in Los Angeles?1 (10m 24s):Yeah, it is. It is. And it's so, it's so funny, but like, so yeah, I was talking to my friend, I'm like, who went to the workshop? I'm like, oh, I won the I wasn't coaching says, she goes, so did I? And then I talked to someone else who I met when I networked with like soda. I was like,2 (10m 40s):I really respect how much it seems like people in LA are devoted to self-improvement. I really, really respect that in a way that I just feel like people out here aren't or if they are, they don't talk about it. Maybe it's what it is. But it does seem, it does seem like people in LA are either they're on a health kick or a mental health kick or they're, you know, getting sober or I just feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of1 (11m 5s):Types here.2 (11m 8s):And I appreciate the fact that everybody talks about that openly. Because if, if people are into that stuff around here, they don't talk about it. So I ended up feeling like, you know, I'm a weirdo.1 (11m 19s):I feel like it's like, like literally like old money versus new money. I swear to God it's like old, old paradigms versus new paradigms. And like, yeah, it's out in the open here, everyone's on some kick, but at the same time, it's also lessened because everybody's talking about it all the time and it becomes like the, like a F like a farce, like not sacred in any way. It's like,2 (11m 47s):Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of people who are doing the most, like in terms of self-help and they're just still the biggest, or they're just lying to themselves about the fact that they're, they feel like they're getting better, but they're really just haven't changed at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, living anywhere is a problem. Well, let me get out of here. I feel like, wow, you can really feel the Puritan vibe. I mean, it's yes. You really it's like, we don't talk about feelings. We, we talk about things on the surface. We don't reveal, you know, very much about ourselves. Wow. Yeah. Keep everything. It's all, it's very buttoned up.2 (12m 27s):Wow. When I first moved here, I really appreciated that, you know, I've done some wild swings geographically, like yeah. Growing up in Sacramento was kind of one sort of thing unto itself that doesn't relate that much to California. Yeah. And then going to Chicago was like, oh, okay. I like this. These people are really down to earth. You know, then I got kind of sick of that. And then I moved to back to California, to the bay area. And I really was into that for awhile. And then I felt like, oh my God, this is all. So this is all bullshit. Like talking about everybody was an imposter. I felt like everybody was low key. So aggro. And then just this hippie, you know, talking about free level the time.2 (13m 8s):And then we moved to New York and I was like, oh, people will just get right to the point here. I really appreciate that. And I never got tired of that, but then we moved here and I thought, oh, this is new England. This is what the pilgrims they've decided a way to be. And it's very buttoned up and they haven't changed in, you know, 300 years. For, you know, have like a little ideas folder in my notes where I just make it little snippets of ideas and write them down. And I've had like six or seven that I realized are all circling around the same idea, which is, I want to have a movie or some, or some type of a script where it's a superhero, but the superhero, their power is that they can interact through some type of magic.2 (14m 8s):They can intervene in somebody else's life when they're making bad decisions. This is sort of romantic coaching and like, Hmm, maybe it's virtual reality, but they, they can kind of put themselves into the body of the person who's making the bad decisions and then help them. You know, it's like, it's basically like the therapist having none of the barriers to, you know, wellness or whatever, and just kind of getting right in there at the same time as this is a comment about how we look to other people to tell us how to behave. Anyway, the superheroes name is psyche and I love it. And, and I'm, I'm it, I'm it.2 (14m 49s):I want to kind of continue with this idea, but I am woefully terrible with plot, as I think we've talked about before. I don't know if you're talking about the podcast before and it's such a, it makes perfect sense that my given my own psychology, that plot would be the hardest thing,1 (15m 11s):Because more that,2 (15m 13s):Well, my, my mother is the first person to tell you, she's never done anything with a plan. She's always just reacted to whatever has come her way. In fact, the idea of like having a goal and working towards it was literally something I never learned until I met my husband. Wow. When like a week, a day. And he was like, what are you going to do today? And I said, oh, I think I'm going to sit out in the sun. And he said, what? I thought you were trying to be an actress. I thought you were like, well, you don't have any time to sit down and do anything. Like you have a goal. And that, and that's been my thing is like, I, I have these vague undefined or have had vague undefined goals yet that in some ways I'm working towards, but because there's no sort of master plan or not a conscious one, if don't know how to get from a, to B to C I know everything about what it looks like as you're traveling from a to B to C, I had to describe it and everything like that.2 (16m 10s):But as far as charting a course of like, this is where I'm starting, and this is where I'm going to end up. That's pretty new to me. And I feel like that's why I struggle with clot. Cause I just don't have like a lot of idea of how something unfolds.1 (16m 26s):Seriously. Literally just ADHD. Could that be,2 (16m 30s):Oh, maybe you have ADHD.1 (16m 33s):Did we talk about2 (16m 33s):This? I have add1 (16m 36s):Or add. So if you have that, this is when I talk to writers who have add that this is their exact situation. Oh, okay. Excellent. With dialogue, excellent. With everything except the actual plot pointing to a, to B, to C you just, I think you just need a class in some add meds. Like I'm serious. I, I don't think, Hey, this is not a, this is, this could be a very practical thing. So, so my father had some big problems, but was a brilliant man in a lot of ways, right? His dissertation, he could see the whole thing where it was going to end up.1 (17m 16s):He knew what he wanted people to feel when he read it. He knew he could not write the thing. So my mother ended up writing it for him. Please don't take your degree away possibly anyway, because he couldn't do the, the actual thing. So I I'm wondering, just like my thing was kind of practical of finding a coworking space and not getting a divorce kind of a situation like yours is literally like, could be a physiological response to too much stimuli going on and how to get to, to your vision. So, and maybe2 (17m 54s):I need a coach.1 (17m 56s):Well, Gina funny, you should bring that up because I was going to say to you, how much is it worth for? You know, I tried to tell you as being your coach on our pocket,2 (18m 6s):That would have been so slick. That would have been like, you're like, I, wasn't going to mention this to you, but I'm actually becoming okay.1 (18m 12s):I'm actually a coach now. So anyway, that is my 2 cents. When you start saying, when you start talking about that, I was like, wait a second. This is not a psychological problem. I don't think,2 (18m 25s):Okay. I mean, you know what? That sounds right to me.1 (18m 29s):Well, it makes a lot of work. You're not lazy and you're not, it's not like you don't have ambition. That's not true because you we've talked a lot on the podcast about how, like having some sense of power is really important to you. Maybe not fame, but power, the power that comes with that. So I'm like, all right, so that's not someone that has no ambition, right? So that's gotta be a different mechanism in the brain. That's not connecting in some way because you're also a people pleaser. So if someone, so my guess is if I w I would wonder if we did an experiment, like if you were in a class, right. And the class person was the teacher, the person in authority was like, and you trusted this person or mentor, whoever writing group, whatever the higher power is in that moment said, she said to you, Gita, you must do, you know, act one must be written by this date.1 (19m 18s):I wonder if you do it,2 (19m 20s):I would, I totally would. In fact, that's a part of me has been like, should I try to get into an MFA program? I don't think that's the answer. I class first just take a class,1 (19m 31s):The script anatomy, there's all these classes that like, that we can talk about later, but like take a class. I know I should have taken a class and not enrolled in an MFA program. Like that was what I, I mean, it was,2 (19m 44s):Can I tell you one of my favorite slash least favorite things in the world is when I have a big problem. And the answer is like, something really is. I both love and hate that. I hate it because I think, wow, why didn't I think of that? And why have I spent so much time just like ruminating and cogitating and wringing my hands about something that has like a pretty straightforward answer. Yeah.1 (20m 6s):And a lot of times, a lot of times us, I think kids that weren't really, for whatever reason, didn't get what they needed, emotionally, make all these things. Our brain works overtime to try to figure things out when this solution, like, I remember, like when I started having panic attacks, I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I went to the doctor. He's like, you have a panic disorder, take this pill. And I was like, what? Yeah.2 (20m 31s):How could it be that easy? How could it be? How could it be? I feel like in that if I were in your shoes, I would think, no, no, no, I don't just have something that everybody else has. I have a truly unique, right. Is that what you were feeling?1 (20m 44s):Yeah. I thought I was going to end up in a state run nursing and I had a panic disorder. It was so I couldn't, and I think it gets wrapped up in shame and wrapped up and I should be able to, I could be, you know, all that shit, but yeah, it, it, it was like, he was like, no, no, no, no, you have something called a panic disorder. It's in this book and it was a DSM. He was like, it's in this book. And he read the, the stuff, the criteria. And I was like, I had that. He was like, no shit. Which is why I'm telling you to take this pill, the Zoloft. And I was like, wow, it didn't even cross my mind. The other thing is, nobody tells you about it. Like a lot of the struggle that we have, I think at, or at least that I have is internal. Right. So I don't, I'm not sharing it with people, which is why I think the podcast is good because maybe someone's listening to the podcast going, oh fuck.1 (21m 29s):Maybe I just have a panic disorder or maybe I have add, or I need a class instead of my life is over.2 (21m 36s):I'm terrible. I'm fundamentally incapable of getting any better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you for that. What a gift1 (21m 42s):You gave me? Well, yeah, that's just what came forward. I'm like, wait, this is not a psychological weirdo, psychological pathological emotional problem.0 (21m 55s):Well,4 (22m 0s):Today on the podcast, we're talking to Kate, Dougan a playwriting major from DePaul theater school who currently lives in Morocco, where she teaches English. She is also a performer and has some interesting stories about her road from wanting to be a performer to deciding, to be a writer. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate Dougan2 (22m 27s):Oh my God. You haven't changed you one1 (22m 30s):Tiny bit. Let's say.3 (22m 34s):Thanks. Wow. Nice to see you girls. Do you guys look the same? I can't believe it. 30 years almost, right?2 (22m 41s):Yeah. Don't say it like that.3 (22m 43s): sorry. It's been 30 years since I graduated from high school. 25, since I graduated from college.1 (22m 53s):It's a long2 (22m 54s):You go by Kate.3 (22m 55s):Yeah. I go by Kate now. I grew up from Katie. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.2 (23m 3s):Well, Kate Dougan congratulations used for five to theater3 (23m 7s):School. I did. I did.2 (23m 10s):You are now in of all places, Morocco, what the heck's going on in Morocco?3 (23m 15s):I'm teaching a high school here at an American high school. Yeah. My husband is Moroccan. So that's how we ended up here. We met in Chicago, worked together and in 2018. Yeah. We just decided it was, you know, he, his parents are, you know, getting a little older and he had not lived in Morocco for about 20, 25 years. And so he decided, you know, he wanted maybe try to come home for a little while. And so he got a job at an American high school. He's a teacher, he's a math teacher. And so we came and then I, I started sort of in one job that didn't really work for me.3 (24m 2s):Cause I initially thought like I was coming to teach theater. Always. The reality is never quite the same as what everybody says is gonna happen. And so, but when we got here, so I tried to teach a theater class, it didn't school wasn't quite ready for it. Then I sort of morphed into teaching English as a second language. And then last year during, well, during 20 19, 20, 20, I got my teaching accreditation to teach high school English. So I teach English language and literature. So yeah. Yeah. How cool do you like it? I do, actually.3 (24m 43s):I like it a lot. I, you know, everybody says the teaching is the hardest job and in many ways, teaching really is the hardest job. Like you, it's a lot of work and it's kind of, it's almost like doing like five shows a day, but you have to write all of your own material and learn all of your own material. And you know, it, it, you have to sort of, you have to really be ready for like a group of high school kids. I mean, these are, you know, they, they want to be engaged and they want to be entertained and they want to, you know, and if you can do those things and talk to the kids and be real with them, then you know, it works.3 (25m 28s):And on days that you're not quite up for it, it's a little tough. But yeah, I do like it a lot. I mean, I think that if you like to be in the room with the kids, then, then you you're, you're going to win, you know? Yeah. There's, I think that there's unfortunately, a lot of teachers who don't necessarily like children. And so you kind of questioned that sometimes. I'm sure we've all had experiences as students in that kind of situation. But yeah, I liked the kids. I liked being with high school kids, you know, they're alive and interested and you know, they haven't given up yet.3 (26m 11s):It's true. There, there, I read something to them the other day about, yeah, they're not dead yet. They're still alive. So that's, that's what I like about it.1 (26m 21s):The other thing I was going to say is that my, my mom was a teacher and she used to say the first year of teaching, like full-time was the hardest year of her life. And she like cried every day after school and it was the most rewarding. And so I, yeah, yeah.3 (26m 39s):I mean, my first year was 2019 or 20. So 2019 to 2020, I was doing my accreditation and I was teaching part-time and that was March, 2020, obviously it was all online. And then September, we started back, it was my first year teaching full time. And, you know, we had one class that was online and then everybody, you know, the kids had the option to be online if they wanted to. So there was one class online and then there were students in school and yeah, you're just trying to, you know, learn, figure out what you're doing and teach yourself the material and, you know, stay alive and handle whatever it was.3 (27m 20s):It was, it was a very stressful year. Last year I got to the, I got to June and I was really tired and really stressed out. And I just, you know, the good part of that is I have declared this year. I will never let myself get into that state again, you know, whatever I have to do to maintain my balance is really important to me. And so far it seems to be working. I I'm feeling much more on top of things this year, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.2 (27m 55s):So beef, let's talk about the period of time you decided to go to theater school. You did, you caught up on the east coast.3 (28m 7s):Yeah. I, well, not exactly. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I know. I always thought of it as east coast. And then years later I was like, I think Pittsburgh is really Midwest. Like, I mean, it's, it's like this close to Ohio where I was from was like this close to West Virginia. So there's a whole other element going on. So it almost, you know, it is east coast, I guess, officially, but it has sort of a Midwest sort of feel like blue collar, you know, town, but yeah, so I grew up in Pittsburgh. I, I don't know.3 (28m 48s):Do you guys just want me to do grow2 (28m 49s):Performing and I do high school plays3 (28m 52s):And stuff. Okay. So not, not as much as I would've liked. I knew from a very young age that I did want to go into theater. We, we lived up the hill from a small college Washington and Jefferson college. I'm from Washington, Pennsylvania. And you know, they built a new like art center one year. And I remember going to see my first theater show there and it had just opened. And I think it was the Rainmaker. I think my dad knew the guy, the place Starbuck, and I just, you know, like, so we want to see the play and it was just the whole experience of it, you know, going to the theater and sitting in the audience and the lights and the people.3 (29m 36s):And I just remember like when the lights went down at the, at the end, I was just like, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do this, you know, how old were you? I was eight actually. So I, yeah, it got me at an early age. I wish I had gotten set on something else a little bit. But1 (30m 0s):Why Did the theater break your heart?3 (30m 5s):Ah, did the theater break? My heart? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, everybody's journey is different. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's not that it broke my heart now. I feel like I just wish I had no, of course. I mean, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change the trajectory. I wouldn't change that love, you know, like that feeling. But I think just like when you experience something like that, it's such a young age, like your mind gets like really set on that thing. And like, I think it's important to grow and change and you know, obviously I've done that and I've done other things.3 (30m 46s):It just, I don't know. No, because I don't wish it was really different. So I, but I, you know, we all have our moments, right. I'm sure. Of course.1 (30m 57s):Yeah. That's what this whole podcast is about where we were like, what the fuck was that? And theater broke my heart over and over again. I thought it was going to be one thing or the business and I, it was not that thing. So I, for me, it's been a off and on heartbreaking experience with the theater. And that doesn't mean that there hasn't been intense love to, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's all part of the same, but yeah. So you, you, from a young age, you were like, you saw Rainmaker and you were like, that's it? Yeah.3 (31m 25s):So that's what I want to do. And so, I mean, but like I said, it was a small town there wasn't like a whole lot going on there. I never really took any acting classes or anything until I was in high school. You know, I went like there was a, there was an acting teacher at my high school. And I just remember like going to her class and being like super excited to finally like, get to do this thing. And like, you know, she asked everybody to kind of give a spiel like about what they want to do. And so I talked about it. I was like, this is really what I want to do with my life. I'm really excited about it. I, I just, you know, this is it for me.3 (32m 6s):And, and I just remember her, like, it wasn't necessarily that day, but like at some point she just kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, you're the one that wants to be an actress. And it was like that first, like, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It was like that first experience of like, oh, I guess like me being excited about it, isn't necessarily going to get people to be positive with me. There was certain that there was an element of bitterness, I guess, which I think happens to people, you know, and I think it happens justifiably.3 (32m 53s):And so I think, you know, it's very important to me that I don't become bitter that I, and I'm glad I haven't, but I, I felt it was a very, it was like that first experience, like, okay, this is somebody that I, I, this is something I want to do. And this is somebody that can help me. And she was just not very enthusiastic about being helpful to me, you know, like, yeah. Who knows I was, it was kind of a weird year for me. So maybe I, you know, wasn't a very good student or something, or maybe she,1 (33m 25s):She, she, that's a shitty you you're probably right on. No, no, because I know because I've done that to people. Actually, I, I feel like I've dampened peoples. I do this with my husband all the time where I rain on his parade. And she rained on your parade a little bit. I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't have good reason to rain grades, but she did. And that, that is sort of, we hear it a lot. So I would think for someone to either either blatantly or inadvertently reign on a youngster's parade in terms of their artistic dreams.3 (33m 57s):So like at high school, I wasn't really that, like, I, I think I, we did like a play for my English class or something. So I don't know. I, I try, like I was in speech and debate and I went to one meet. And let me tell you like the power of the mind. Like I got laryngitis that day. Like I got laryngitis on the bus on the way to the meet and couldn't talk all day. And then on the bus on the way home I was able to speak. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's, yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other . I mean, does that mean you1 (34m 37s):Didn't keep going with speech and debate3 (34m 39s):Or you had no, I don't think I did. I don't really remember. I obviously it was not a huge part of my life because I think at some point I was like, okay, this is not the person that's going to help me. I'm not getting feeling very positive vibes here. And so I'm gonna try to, you know, do other things. So then I started taking acting classes.1 (34m 60s):Did she wait to interrupt? Did she run the speech and debate thing too?3 (35m 3s):Yes, she did. Oh, no.1 (35m 5s):So that's, I mean, there you go. I mean, that's3 (35m 8s):How my mom1 (35m 9s):Running.3 (35m 11s):Yeah. Who knows. Anyway, so then I started going to like taking acting classes in downtown Pittsburgh. There was the civic light opera, and they had like an academy of, it was musical theater, but I just took straight acting classes. I was never like really a singer or anything like that. And that was a really positive experience for me. I had a great teacher, Jill, and, you know, we did a lot of scene study and she was, she was the opposite, you know, she was a very positive person, very loving and sweet. And, you know, really, you made me feel good about what I was doing and what I could do.3 (35m 52s):So, you know, there are those people as well that, you know,2 (35m 57s):Who suggested that you could pursue it for college.3 (36m 5s):I mean, I think it was never, for me, it was just never a question like, but I long story, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in the acting program at DePaul, I was in the play. I was in the wait. I was in the, I was in the playwriting program. Yeah.2 (36m 27s):Why do I remember you as being in class with me? But I feel like I remember you as being one of the actors. I remember seeing you on Steve.3 (36m 38s):No, I, I, I doubt it. I, I, unless2 (36m 42s):Were you in a play onstage?3 (36m 44s):I don't think so. No. I mean, unless it was like some kind of workshop for one of my plays or something like that, but no,2 (36m 54s):I mean, do you remember me at all? I3 (36m 56s):Do remember. Yeah. I remember you guys. I remember you completely. I just, so I think I graduated. I was a year older than you guys. I think. When did you graduate? I graduated in 96. Okay. So yeah, one year older. You will, so, okay, go ahead.2 (37m 14s):Awesome. Yeah, that happened. What the hell?3 (37m 19s):Well, let me, let me dial back to, to where, cause you asked me if my teacher wanted me to go to college and for me, like there was just no other, I was going to school for theater and there was no stopping me. You know, it was funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts and, and I listened to Caitlin Kiernan's and she was just like, you know, I was 18. Like, what do you, you know, like what did I think? I don't know, but I just, this is what my mind was set on. So, so I'm sure she, she, I remember her telling me that that acting teacher, she was like of all of my, you know, she put me aside and this one other girl, Heather, who I think has actually done pretty well. I think she lives in LA and you know, there's not a lot of TV work.3 (38m 0s):And she was like, you know, she's like of my students. I think you guys have real potential to make something in this business. So she was very positive. So then I started auditioning. I auditioned for probably not enough schools. I should've heard DePaul and like Carnegie Mellon and I think some other, a couple of other schools. And so then I kind of had my mind set in Chicago. My brother lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I had gone to visit him. And I just really like fell in love with the city. And I always knew that I wanted to go to school in a city. So I kind of got my mind set on Chicago. I was like, well, if I get in the car to Carnegie Mellon, I'm from Pittsburgh obviously, but I didn't.3 (38m 45s):So then I auditioned for DePaul and I didn't get in my first, I didn't get in. And so I decided to take a year off and try again, which my dad was not super happy about, but I just had my mindset. I was like, no, I'm going to take year off. And then I'm going to try it again. I'm going to audition again. And that's it. And it ended up being, you know, I think taking your off was a good thing for me. I auditioned again and I didn't get in again. And so, you know, it's funny, like listening to these stories of you guys, like, and all the struggles that you went through and it's like, well, you know, well, at least you, you got in what's true.3 (39m 33s):Like there are different struggles. Yeah. There are different struggles for sure. But then so, and I, when I didn't get in the second time, I was just, I don't know. I think I was just set on Chicago. I was kind of set on DePaul. They'd offered me a place in theater studies program. And so I took it and then I, I decided when I was there to do join the playwriting program, and this is 1996 or 1992. And I was like, at that point I was like, literally like the only person in the playwriting program. My first year, there was like one person who was like a sophomore.3 (40m 14s):I think it was like the second or third year that Dean Corrin was there. He had just been taken on to start this program. And so, yeah. And then as I went through like a few other people joined like Diane Herrera and I think Adam Matthias was also in the writing program. And so while I was there kind of grew a little bit. Yeah. So I, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know. You just want me to keep talking? I feel like2 (40m 51s):I was just ask a question about the theater studies program, because I don't know that we've ever really talked about that program and, and how you just described it, made it sound like that's where people can go to figure out what non-acting thing they want to do in theater.3 (41m 9s):I mean, I think I, to be honest, you know, I mean, let's not kid ourselves college is about making money. Right. For, for most people it's, for-profit, it's private school. I think that they wanted to build the program and yeah. I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I did pretty good on my SATs. My grades were decent and I don't know, maybe my audition was okay. And so it was sort of, yeah, like, you know, they offered it to people like, you know, if you want to come, you're not invited to the acting program, but if you want, you can come to the theater studies program. And so I said, no, the first year, and then the second year I was like, I'm ready to go to school. I mean, sometimes I think I probably would've been better off like going to like a smaller school that didn't necessarily require an audition or something like that, but say levee.3 (41m 57s):Right. And, and so, yeah, I was like, well, I guess I'll do playwriting. And I, I, I mean, I'm glad I did it for many reasons. It was not, it ended up being a really good choice for me. I mean, I think like listening to you guys talk about the competition and, you know, sort of like, I don't do well with rejection. You know, I think you really, I don't, I don't necessarily like love to be the center of attention. And I think like, as an actor or at least to be successful on some level, you have to want that attention.3 (42m 42s):I mean, you guys do, do you feel that you like being the center of attention? She does.1 (42m 49s):Like, I love, I am constantly and mine is, if you listen to the podcast, like we talk about the psychological stuff. Like, I, I still, you know, feel like I wasn't treated right as a kid. So I'm constantly, I'm so transparent about it. I'm constantly trying to get the approval of my mother. Who's dead by the way. So yeah, I, I can say that, like, I want to belong and I want someone to say you are special and I pick you. That's like my dark sort of shadow side. And it always will be for me. I think even if I work through it, I think we all have our shadow sides and that's, and that's mine. And I think it transformed into, oh, maybe if this school likes me, that will give me that sense, but I never got that from DePaul because, you know, one it's that set up for that too.1 (43m 37s):People are bitter and weird and three it's an inside job. Yeah.3 (43m 41s):Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like part of it was, I am the youngest of four and so I think it was like that craving for attention. Like I totally get what you're saying there. So, I mean, I like to be on stage, but like, I don't necessarily like the auditioning part of it and I don't necessarily, you know, like have to be the center of attention to parties or any of those things. But I did, you know, I really did enjoy, I really do enjoy acting like I, I do like it, but so1 (44m 12s):You, you,3 (44m 12s):You were doing a playwriting BFA. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You did.1 (44m 18s):And your plays got workshopped.3 (44m 21s):Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the program was still very fledgling and I think because, you know, I wasn't in the acting program, you know, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, I think admitted,1 (44m 43s):Wait, I just have to say, like, there's something really fierce about auditioning twice for the program and then going to theater school, studying theater studies, look at your, at a young age to say, you know what? I fucking want to go to school. So I'm going to, I mean, talk about, I, I see it as, you know, I hate calling people brave, cause I think it's kind of sending, but I think it's fierce to say I'm still going to go to this school. I mean, of course you had, I would have a chip on my shoulder so big. I wouldn't go. Yeah. You went and got an education for God's sake in a degree.3 (45m 16s):Yeah. And I, I, I got a really good education, you know, that's part of what was really positive for me. And I'll go back to the question about workshopping in a second. But what was positive for me is that the theater school had this glitch in their, in their system in because the acting students had to take so many classes cause you guys had yoga and movement to music and scene study and whoever knows what else. So like as part of your tuition, you could take up to 24 credits. And so what I did is I then got a really great liberal arts education.3 (45m 57s):I took poetry writing classes. I took like performance of literature. I took video editing. I took intro to film. I took like,1 (46m 10s):We'll do you could do that Kate? Like, how did you figure out like, oh, I have 24 credits. I'm going to use these.3 (46m 15s):I really don't. I don't know that anybody told me, I think I just figured it out at some point. And I was like, okay, well I guess I'm going to get my money's worth and I'm going to go take these other classes and these other schools and learn how to write and learn how to make films and do intro to film and learn, you know? So like I really loved college. I don't, you know, the theater school was, I don't have anything negative to really say about the theater school either. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I sort of had that chip on my shoulder to begin with about being part of the theater school about feeling like Jen, like you said, like about feeling like an insider, but you know, all my friends were in the theater school.3 (47m 2s):I, I love theater people. I really enjoyed that experience. But, but part of my good college experience happened outside of it in many ways, just because I kind of took the reins and I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have some fun with this and get a good education and, and play. And I, I loved it. I loved school. I loved learning new things and try new things. I even, I even took like a leave of absence from the theater for theater school for one quarter. Cause I did a, an overseas, I went to Ireland for a quarter.3 (47m 43s):So, and to do that, I had to take a leave of absence from the theaters. Yeah. Does that seem familiar? Yeah, probably Kelly was crying because I was supposed to be her roommate, but I never got which Kelly Kelly and Mick Adams. I was when I came back from Ireland, we were supposed to be roommates, but I never called and she just got her own apartments. And then I was like, oh my God, I don't know where I'm going to live. But yeah. So I, you know, anyway, so back to my theater school experience, so was, was positive also for playwriting. I, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, Dean Corrin was great, you know, we took like dramatic criticism we had yeah.3 (48m 30s):You know, another, another theme that I have, you know, listening to your podcast and you guys talked about it a little bit is like self-sabotage or not taking advantage of the opportunities presented to you. I feel like, because I kind of had that chip and I wanted to be an actor. Like I didn't necessarily take advantage of the opportunities, like playwriting opportunities, which came easier of course, because cause that's the way it goes, because if you want something it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to be easy, but if you're kind of, sort of like, well maybe, maybe not then the opportunities roll in, but yeah, like we had a poetry or a playwriting workshop class with Sandy Shinar she worked at victory gardens at the time.3 (49m 18s):Yeah. And she was good friends with Dean and like he had her come in as like a guest teacher one day and we were going to work my play and he'd given it to her and she had read it and, and I was just, I don't know. I, I just was like, oh God, I hate that. I really don't want to work on it. Do we have to do this? Can we do something else? And like how we shoot ourselves in the foot, you know, like what an opportunity really? And because I was insecure and scared, I'm sure like whatever psychological, you know, thing you want to come up with that, that, that we, we do to why, why we do these things for ourselves.3 (50m 1s):So, you know, and I, I had other opportunities like that along the way that I didn't necessarily take advantage of. But1 (50m 8s):Did you pull your play or did you work3 (50m 10s):On it? We didn't work on it. No, because there was somebody else in the class who was much smarter than I was and was like, oh, well here's my play. We can do my play. We can work on mine today. Yeah. I know. That's really that's.1 (50m 26s):I mean, I totally relate. And I think it, it just speaks to many things, but like, you weren't ready for that and that's it. And I, I'm starting to look at things like ready versus not ready versus good and bad. So you just weren't ready to have that experience. And we can look back and, you know, I listened to Gina and I talk to people on and we're like, we blame ourselves for that, but you just simply didn't have the emotional resources to take in that experience. And that sucks. But,2 (51m 1s):And when you're not ready, it, people could say anything to you. That person could have said, we want you to be the new resident playwright, a victory gardens. You would've said, I don't think so.1 (51m 13s):I could've gotten the laryngitis again. Like it it's, we couldn't stop.3 (51m 19s):That's so interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's, that's hearing it come from you. It, it, it's nice Rather than me saying it to myself or trying to figure out, like, why, why do I do these things to myself?1 (51m 37s):And it's interesting having done all these podcasts, Kate, we see it over and over again. So we have the data to tell you that people have, we've heard like so many people like with these ICTs being offered these things and being like, no, I'm not going to move to LA because you know, I have an apartment in Wrigleyville. Like I'm not going to be a movie star. And people are like, what's the D we all have that. I think that's part of growing up. And I also also think it's part of expecting young people to really handle a lot of things we cannot handle.3 (52m 11s):Yeah. They're one of the books that I, I teach my students is called outliers. Have you guys read it? It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he, you know, there's a section in where he talks about practical intelligence and you know, how some people, the people that are successful, you know, they grow up with a certain family life, or, you know, maybe it's about money. It's about education. It's about these things. But it's also just knowing how to handle yourself in certain situations and knowing how to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. And I think if you aren't, if you don't have that, or you're not taught that it is hard sometimes to, you know?2 (52m 50s):Yeah. And what, I just heard you, I mean, when you said, it's good to hear that from us, that made me think, oh, you've been beating yourself up about this for 25 years to yourself. Why did I squander this opportunity? Which, I mean, whether or not you did it, it's completely human. That, that you might occasionally have that thought, but have you spent a lot of time in, in regret?3 (53m 18s):I mean, I don't think so. I think I don't spend a lot of time in regret. You know, I definitely had moments over the years. I, well, a few years back, I sort of had like a little bit of a, not a breakdown, but like, I think of my midlife crisis started and like my, you know, I have two kids and my daughter was, you know, eight and my son was four and it was just kind of like, you know, you know, when kids are babies, it's just baby, baby, baby, baby. You don't, you don't have time to think about yourself. So who cares? And then like when you start to get back to yourself a little bit, it's just like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm 42 or, you know, whatever, and what have I really done?3 (54m 8s):And you know, what am I doing? And you know, is this, this, this it, I mean, I, I was teaching yoga. So, I mean, that's also a part of my journey. I mean, like I, so when I got out of school, like I did acting for a while, like, I've done some very bad independent films. Do you guys know Sandra Delgado? Oh yeah. Yeah. She, I like, we did a really bad film together in the early two thousands. And, you know, like I did like a horror film and I was like, had some small parts as mother independent films.3 (54m 52s):And, you know, I, I was trying to act and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and like I did a couple of plays, but it was just never, you know, I just could never get to a certain point. I really just, I would have done theater and crappy theater and whatever, but I just, I couldn't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I have the, that decade that I called the, the bad boyfriend years, so which we can all relate to on some level, which I, you know, where we all waste a lot of energy on people who don't deserve it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so then, yeah, like a few years back, so it was kind of not in a good place.3 (55m 39s):And I was like, okay, well, I guess it's now or never. And I, I finally finished the play, so I went back to writing. Yeah. That's huge. That's awesome. You know, I finally cause I, I was like, okay, I guess if I'm going to try, I guess I gotta try. And, you know, I, I really discovered a few things. I discovered that I like writing. I, I feel good when I'm doing it. You know, there's a lot of positives to it in that way. I finished the play. I, it got, it got into like the second round at the Austin film festival.3 (56m 19s):So that was, yeah, that was pretty cool. I guess, since it was just like my first foray out of doing anything in theater in quite some time, and I had a stage reading in Chicago and then it sort of, you know, petered out after that. I, I was sending it out, sending it out, but no, no, no hits after that. But so, you know, I'm kind of gearing up to write again. So, no, I don't, I don't have, I don't, I haven't been beating myself up about it. I think that, you know, life takes a course and you can only do what you are doing in the time that you're doing it.3 (57m 0s):You only have the information that you have. You only have the life skills that you have. You only have the resources that you have. And so I think regret, I don't waste a lot of time on regret. I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and sort of like you said, Jen, like everybody's story is the same, a little bit. And that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, I've looked up to and had a lot of respect for and were really good actors and good at what they did. It just didn't happen for them. And so that's, that's like, I, yeah.2 (57m 37s):So I'm still just trying to, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why I just remember you as being an acting student, maybe it had to do with that. You were friends with Kelly and maybe because of your friendship with Kelly.3 (57m 54s):Yeah, probably that was it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was friends with all the apartment three crew. I, yeah.1 (58m 2s):So I mean, I like, I like that even like deeper in my brain, I was like, what if I was taking on your desire to be an actor? I saw you as an actor because it was so strong that you wanted to be an actor. Like, I literally have an image of you on stage, but I actually can't3 (58m 22s):Be somebody else. Yeah. I1 (58m 25s):It's your face. It's really weird. So, anyway,3 (58m 27s):I mean, I guess at one time, like I had a play that maybe I did a stage reading of with Darryl Dickerson at school and maybe some other actors, maybe Kelly was in it. I don't know. But that would have really been like in a classroom. Yeah, yeah, no, I not an actor or, I mean, I am an actor, but none of the theater school. Yeah.2 (58m 54s):So these days, I mean, when you're talking about the work of being an English teacher, it reminded me actually, ironically, just a few days ago, I ran across a notebook that I haven't opened since I was a teacher of social studies and drama. And I re remember that I used to take for social studies. I used to write my lesson like a monologue kind of, and sort of not memorize it exactly, but almost like repeatedly rehearse it because it was not information that I already knew. I was learning the lesson right before I taught it. And teaching is so performative that during that time I was doing theater at the time.2 (59m 35s):But even if I weren't, I think I would have felt fulfilled in a performance way. Do you have that feeling about being a teacher? That it feels like a performance?3 (59m 50s):I guess what I, I do like the exchange of energy, like, like you would get from say a live audience or something like that. I don't know that I necessarily look at it as a performance, but I do feel like, yeah, you, obviously you have to be ready. You have to know what you're going to say. You have to know the material. And like, even if it is you just learning it that day or getting, you know, I feel that exchange, like, I feel good after class, like after talking with the kids and being with the kids and talking at them and, and teaching them, it does feel that way, like a little bit like that exchange of energy that you get from an audience a little bit.3 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah.2 (1h 0m 37s):Do you otherwise feel a kind of a need to do, do you have a need for any other type of creative outlet or your guys you're doing it because you're kind of getting back into3 (1h 0m 48s):My goal is to, yeah. To start writing again, like, I, I don't know how, what your, how you guys write. Like, I don't know what if you're constantly writing all the time or for me it's, it's like, I tend to sort of get inspiration and then work on something, you know, in a, in, in a period of time. Or if I create the discipline, like when I finished this play, I was getting up at like four 30 every day. I was teaching yoga at the time and the kids were, you know, still pretty young. And so I knew that the only way it was ever going to work is if I was disciplined enough to, you know, set that time aside, this is my time, my time to write.3 (1h 1m 33s):And so now, you know, after, like you said, you know, that first year is so hard, so now I'm starting to get my legs again. And I'm hoping to, yeah. Maybe start working on something I have, I've like dabbled in screenwriting before a little bit. So I'm thinking about, maybe I'm getting too into that a little bit.1 (1h 1m 57s):I have a question for you when you took playwriting. So this is interesting because it was such a young program, right. Was there any actually teaching of writing at the theater school, Like how to write a play?3 (1h 2m 12s):You know, it's funny about that. It's funny because I mean, like, I, it feels like we would write and we give it the stuff to Dean and we had deadlines and things like that. And he would give us feedback on it. You know, it's the funny thing is, is like the only, I feel like the only piece of practical writing advice that I ever got, and I, this is nothing against Dean. It's just what I remember. So Dean was awesome. I loved him. Well, we had a visiting playwright from Nigeria all over TIMI. I don't know if you remember him being there. He was there for like one quarter and he basically just like, kind of taught me to, to write a bit, you know, he's like, he's like, you have this scene here.3 (1h 2m 57s):And the guy he's at the cafe and he wants his coffee, but the waitress isn't giving him his coffee. He has to keep asking for his coffee over and over again. And it was just like, oh, you mean, I have to create like a little bit of dramatic tension in the scene, what a revelation. Right?2 (1h 3m 16s):Like it just a Mo create3 (1h 3m 17s):A moment. I felt like, you know, he gave me some real practical advice. It was just like, okay, you just have to, you know, these two people are here and you have to kind of, he wants his coffee and she won't give him his coffee and that's where the comedy comes in. And so, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know how much, you know, they taught me about writing. I feel like I could have used a little bit of more help, like in practical matters, you know, listening to Kate's thing when you guys all went out for your showcase and that kind of thing. Like if somebody had talked to me more about submitting my work, maybe that would have been helpful.3 (1h 3m 58s):I mean, it's so weird though, to think of it at that time. I mean, I was, we were sending out headshots through the mail. We were sending out work through the mail. I mean, you have to go ,1 (1h 4m 14s):You'd have to go to what was called Kinko's then print out your play and then, and then mail it in an envelope to theaters or drop it off in person.3 (1h 4m 24s):And there was like that, like one place where you could get your headshots downtown, like the one like photography place where you could go and get like your headshots in bulk and you'd have to go pick them up. And like the blue2 (1h 4m 35s):Box. I remember the blue box.3 (1h 4m 37s):Yes. I still box exactly. You know,1 (1h 4m 44s):I think, or2 (1h 4m 45s):Yeah, something like that. So. Okay. So then let's talk about the period between graduating and we're where you are now. So you, well, you said you were auditioning,3 (1h 4m 57s):So I graduated. Yeah. And then after that, I, I, you know, I would go in spurts of productivity, you know, where I would audition a lot. You know, I was always looking at performing, you know, once again, trying to, I took a lot of classes in Chicago. I, I took classes at the actor's center. They had a lot of Meisner there. I did Steven, Steven. I have a villages program. He had a studio in like Wicker park. And so he had like a, like a, I think it was like a nine month program or something. So you would, you know, go and you'd be with the same group.3 (1h 5m 40s):And I went through a program there. I took classes downtown at, I forget what it's called now, the audition studio, or, you know, and I remember taking like an on-camera class with Erica Daniels. And who was the other, who was the lady that she always worked with? The casting director. Do you remember she was blonde1 (1h 6m 8s):Phyllis at Steppenwolf?3 (1h 6m 9s):No. It was like a casting director. Her name began with an ass. I want to say it was like Sharon or Sally, or, I dunno, she was like a big casting director at the time. So I took like an on-camera class with them, you know, I, Yeah. I don't know. It's funny cause like you, you, there's these moments where you realize like you're trying to be funny and it just, isn't funny and it just ends up really awkward. And that was one of those moments with them, you know, you're trying to impress somebody and, and she, I was sort of like chubby in high school.3 (1h 6m 57s):And so I think that as with most women who have issues with body issues, like you, you have those body issues forever. It takes a long time to shake them off. And I remember they gave me the scene. It was, the character was played by Sarah rule. Yeah. So, you know, she was a little overweight at the time, you know, and I remember kind of making this off-color joke about how, oh, I guess I see you gave me the, the part of the fat girl or something like that. Like really like probably not appropriate, but I, I meant it to be self-deprecating, but I wasn't really fat at the time.3 (1h 7m 37s):So it was didn't come off as self-deprecating it was another one of those instances where it's just like, and the woman just like hated me after that, you know? And Erica was pretty cool. I think she kind of realized that I was just nervous and awkward. And with the other woman, I remember seeing her like outside after, and she crossed the street to like, not talk to me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm such an asshole. Like, why did I say that? I didn't mean it. You know? And so I'm even blushing now I think thinking about it,1 (1h 8m 10s):You said what probably a lot of people were thinking when they would get that.2 (1h 8m 15s):Honestly, you can rest assured that absolutely every person who was there was just in an internal monologue about their own body issues. I mean, that's, that's the thing that comes up over and over again, when we feel so much shame about something like that, it's like, those people would never remember it. A and if, even if they did, they'd say with the benefit of hindsight, they might say, oh yeah, well, that just brought up for me. You know, my feelings about myself. And3 (1h 8m 44s):I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it just, it, so I took classes all over the city. I auditioned a lot, like I said, I did some independent films and then, you know, like I was still auditioning kind of in spurts over time, I think. And then I discovered yoga. And so I started doing Bikram yoga. It's just the hot yoga. I hear you guys talking about cults and cult leaders a lot on here. He's, he's one of those guys. He's a, he's a cult leader, a guru now downfall on by sexual harassment.3 (1h 9m 26s):But I started doing the yoga and that was like 2007, I think. And, you know, I had a friend who really kind of pushed me to go do the training and I wasn't really sure, but I decided to go do it. And you know, it kind of, I think, I don't know if you guys have ever done yoga, but it is sort of, you know, it kind of, it gave me something that I had been missing in a way. I think, you know, it is that, that mind body connection, I think I had been very detached from my body for many reasons, you know, abuse and all that.3 (1h 10m 7s):Like not physical abuse, but other kinds of abuse. And, and so like, I think that people get detached from their bodies. And so I think I was really connected to it in a way, and I felt good, you know, in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I think that's the hardest thing. Sometimes when it goes, when you go back to theater, it's like you put so much energy into it and so much time. And I took so many classes and, you know, I enjoyed the classes and, but I just, you know, I really wanted to get on stage and it was just like, I just couldn't get there. And I think like at a certain point, you're just kind of like, what positive am I getting from this thing that I'm giving all this time and energy and love to like, what's the positives that I'm getting out of this.3 (1h 10m 55s):And I'm not, I'm not really seeing it anymore. You know, you know, I, I would get calls from people. We loved your audition. It was lovely. Please come audition for us again. So, you know, there, there were positives, but it just could never, it just really came to fruition. And so then I started doing the yoga and I, I felt really connected to it and I felt really good and in a way that I hadn't felt. And so then I started teaching yoga and I did that for like 10 years while I was having babies and raising them. And then like, yeah.3 (1h 11m 36s):So then 27 16, I started writing again.2 (1h 11m 40s):I did, I did Bikram yoga for like two years and you're just making me re remember that part of what I liked about it. It was kind of like rehearsal. I mean, cause you just go and you do the same, whatever it is, 26 poses. And the set is the same and the smell the same. And it is kind of like, it's very rich of all the nuggets, like really ritualistic.3 (1h 12m 8s):It is very ritualistic and you know, I haven't been practicing here in Morocco. Sometimes I, you know, close all the doors to my kitchen and I turn on t

The heart is deceitful and prone to wander. Ask the Lord to help you guard your heart against temptations, enticements, and snares. Be vigilant in setting your heart on God above all else.

Okay so Thanksgiving makes me think of three things: smallpox, turkey, and puritans wearing little white bonnets. When I researched this episode in 2018 I thought to myself, "Hmmmmm. Was anyone ever murdered for adultery?" then BAM! This Thanksgiving edition of our show was created. Originally broadcast November 28, 2018.Written by Schuyler Fastenau and executive produced by Daniel Jones. Additional voices by Jorge Hernandez, Bronson, Brandon Maple, Juan Haro, Astrid Martin, Joe Burns, Brian Liles, David Menses, and special guest Stephanie Diehl. Theme music by Tracy Zales.Follow us on:Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/OGDeadtimeInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/theoriginaldeadtimestories/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DeadtimeStoriesPodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeadtimeThe

John Taylor: Kentucky Frontier Baptist Preacher 1752-1836 And the Kentucky Revivals The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

We love music here at the PST Podcast Show and enjoy discussing it every now and then. As we begin to wrap up 2021, we wanted to go back 20 years ago to dissect, in our opinions, the best and worst albums of 2001.Jeff and Erik were joined by their good friend, Mark Lacasse, former guitarist for the punk bands Ghoti Hook and Puritan. The guys discussed bands and artists such as The Donnas, Drive By Truckers, Fugazi, Tool, Iggy Pop, Run DMC, Staind, Radiohead, and many more.Head over to our website for more podcasts and more: https://www.philadelphiasportstable.com.Follow the guys on Twitter:Jeff Warren: @Jeffrey_WarrenErik Leonard: @BrickPolittLen Hunsicker: @LenHunsickerFollow the show on Instagram: @philadelphiasportstable"Like" our Facebook Page: facebook.com/PhiladelphiaSportsTable

Paranormal Comedy Podcast Werewolf Radar is dropping another NEW episode for your earballs. Mermaids from around the world, puritan ghosts, and ghost stories about Queen's University of Belfast dorms. The world is a weird place; Werewolf Radar has the paranormal information you need to survive.  In this Episode: Jordan starts with a segment about mermaids from around the world. Every culture has a form of the mermaid and many seem to want one thing...to lure and drown humans. Head down to the water and learn about our aquatic-humanoid brothers.  In honor of Thanksgiving, Nate brings the information about ghosts of the puritan people that landed on the New World and then betrayed the native people. You do not want to see these ghosts around the dining table.  Roger ends the episode with ghost stories from the Queen's Universe of Belfast. In a recent BBC Radio 4 broadcast of the paranormal podcast "Uncanny", a former student known as Ken discussed his paranormal experiences at the school. His stories made a number of other students come forward and the tales are fascinating. Time to learn something! Werewolf Radar is a Paranormal Preparedness (and Comedy) podcast. Give it a listen. It'll change your life, it changed Bigfoots. -------------------------------- If you laughed, loved, or lived because of this episode, consider becoming a Patron and supporting the team!  You'll get access to exclusive content and other, mysterious rewards, so check it out for more info.  Thanks to Chuck Coffey for our snappy little theme song, and, as always: Punch the sky, Spaceman Joe! Werewolf Radar Patreon Discord

A Chapter From Persuasives to Early Piety, Baptist John G. Pike, 1821 one of the most frightening things I have ever narrated. Some People Only Awakened By Terrors of Hell. The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

Well, this morning we are returning to our study in the book of Hebrews. We will be in Hebrews chapter 10 versus nineteen through thirty nine. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, 33 sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. 34 For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. 35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For, “Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; 38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls. Hebrews 10:19-39, ESV This is the word of the Lord. A couple of years ago, a once famous pastor, someone who had published popular books, pastored a large congregation and and by all accounts, had an incredibly successful ministry, announced one day on social media that he was excommunicating himself from the church and from Christianity. Now to be excommunicated, if you're unfamiliar with that term, is the most severe form of church discipline that can be enacted in the church. When someone no longer cares to live like a Christian no longer believes the essence of what it means to be a Christian. Leaders in the church are sometimes forced to excommunicate someone, which means that their profession of faith is rendered null and void, and they're removed from membership in the church. So in announcing, this former pastor, that he himself was excommunicating himself from the church, he was announcing that he no longer believed the gospel, that he no longer wanted to live as a Christian, and he was therefore removing himself from the body of Christ. Now this was apparently the final step, although we still hold out hope for his repentance in a downward trajectory that was some years in the making. He had resigned from pastoral ministry some years earlier and ever since then had renounced much of what he had taught and published in his ministry. The edifice of his previous gospel of convictions slowly crumbled and then to cap it all off, he and his wife announced they were ending their marriage. Now, as you can imagine, this announcement that he no longer considered himself to be a Christian was both jarring and heartbreaking for those who knew him, but also for anyone who may have at one time simply benefited from his written ministry. Understandably, to have any influential Christian leader make shipwreck of their faith is going to leave a trail of debris in the wake. Unfortunately, this specific example isn't the first time, nor will it likely be the last time that something tragic like that happens in Jesus's church. I'm sure many of us, myself included, can cite examples in our own stories where a once influential Christian leader or teacher, someone who ministered to you even if only through their publications, made the decision that they were done with biblical and Orthodox Christianity. When those stories hit too close to home friends, they're understandably heartbreaking, upsetting, shocking, scandalous, and they may even elicit some self-reflection of our own. For example, we may ask ourselves that if someone like that, someone who seemed on the surface of things to have it all together could abandon the faith, well, then what hope do I have to persevere and the Christian life? Do they know something I don't? Maybe we even question how those stories reflect on God? Does God actually abandon his people? Well, I don't want to leave you in suspense on that last one, so no God doesn't abandon those who truly belong to him. The question of perseverance and endurance, how do we stay the course in the Christian life when we see people we love and admire head towards the exit door is what our author addresses in our passage this morning. He wants us to be aware of the sobering reality that apostasy, that is turning your back on your faith, sometimes happens in Jesus's church. As he issues this sobering warning about apostasy, he also wants to equip us as believers to live the Christian life with the necessary equipment to endure and persevere into the end. So our big idea this morning is this we have need of endurance. As we walk through this passage, we're going to take it in three chunks, basically following the three paragraphs as you see it divided up in the English Standard Version. First, we'll look at a charge to endure and versus nineteen through twenty- five second, a warning to endure and verses twenty-six through thirty one. Then finally, the way to endure in verses thirty-two through thirty-nine. 1. A Charge to Endure 2. A Warning to Endure 3. The Way to Endure. A Charge to Endure So first, a charge to endure. So if you scan the first seven verses of your passage or so, you may notice a couple of commands. Actually, I count three different commands, each of which begin with the phrase “Let us”. As we'll see in a moment, our author calls us to be earnest people as it pertains to our faith. He calls us as Christians for the sake of our perseverance, to be serious about truth, serious about spiritual disciplines, to take our faith seriously and to take the local church seriously as well. Before he does that, he starts in a really familiar place, if you've been plodding along in Hebrews with us. He rehearses for us, in summary form, everything that Christ Jesus has already done on our behalf. Now I think it would be easy at this point, especially because we've already heard such a long and beautiful exposition of Christ's person and work throughout the previous several chapters in Hebrews, to treat these first two or three verses or so as throwaway verses. Now maybe you're thinking to yourself at this point, goodnes, author of Hebrews whoever you are, just get to your main point. You've already told us this stuff about what Christ has done and who he is. Yet, far from being simply filler to transition us to the real meat of the passage, these verses, these first few verses are really important in the larger context of perseverance. Understand that when theologians talk about perseverance or endurance in the Christian life, they've traditionally distinguished between the grounds of our perseverance and the means of our perseverance. In other words, the first thing we have to know about perseverance and enduring in the Christian life is that it's first and foremost grounded and rooted in the work of God. He's the one who secures us. He's the one who holds us fast. Our perseverance and endurance doesn't depend on whether our affections for the Lord and the gospel ever ebb and flow, which they do indeed. Rather, perseverance depends on the Lord. This is why our author begins in the way he does within this larger context of perseverance before telling us what to do. He has to remind us, first and foremost, what Jesus Christ has already done. The first thing he tells us is that when Christ died for our sins, well, he went where you and I could not. Having done that, he has invited us as his people to follow on his coattails. You may recall that when we talked earlier, the last few sermons we've given in Hebrews, we noted that in the tabernacle, the earthly place of worship in the Old Testament, there was a big curtain, a big veil that closed off the most holy place on Earth from everything and everyone else. Remember that center room in the tabernacle and then later in the temple was considered to be the holiest place on Earth. It was where God's glory dwelt most powerfully on Earth, and therefore only the High Priest once a year was able to go past that curtain. He was the only one who was allowed to do it, and he was only able to do it once a year. In the New Testament, friends, in the gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke, we learned that when Christ died, what happened to that curtain? Well, we learned that the curtain of the temple was torn in two. What's being communicated there is that access to God through Christ's life, death and resurrection is no longer limited and shadowy, like it was in the Old Testament. Rather, through, as our author puts it, the curtain of Christ's flesh, all who attach themselves to Christ by faith alone now have access into the heavenly places the place where Christ himself ascended after the resurrection, the place that the most holy place in the Tabernacle ultimately pointed to, and the place where our Lord Jesus Christ now reigns in glory. That's the second point our author makes in this opening few verses. Christ is the great high priest over the house of God. Christ opened the way of access for all of his people, and now he sits in heaven, where he reigns over his church and he preserves his people. Now, these opening three verses that we read are only a summary of everything that we've heard thus far about Christ's priestly work. Yet what they do is really important because they remind us of the privileges that we have as God's children, and ultimately they communicate what anchors us in the Christian life from start to finish is not us, it's not ourselves. It's not our work. It's Jesus Christ, the one who lived for us, the one who died for us, and the one who now reigns in the heavenly places for us. Now, in view of these grounds, our author gives three specific exhortations to tell us that there are certain means that we, as Christians, are called to lay hold of in our own lives for the sake of our perseverance. So what are some of the things he says? Well, this gets us to the commands in the first part of our passage, we're first in verse twenty-one. He calls his church to draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with purer water. So what does it mean to draw near? Well, think about some of the really ordinary things that we're called to do in the Christian life as a people who have been washed and cleansed by the Holy Spirit and made new creatures. Well, we're called to pray to God when we're burdened. We're called to engage with God as in the study of his word. We do that both in private and we do that corporately as a church. Perhaps the chief expression of drawing near is when we come into the worship assembly and we hear and respond to the gospel and partake of the sacraments as well. In fact, one commentator notes that his first command to draw near encourages God's people, you and me, to a life of worship that includes private worship, worship at home, worship with our families, but at most certainly also includes corporate worship, worship with each other. That's why at Harvest, we call what we're doing right now the pinnacle of our week. Second, we're then urged to hold fast without wavering to the confession of our hope. Now, ultimately, this is an encouragement to know what you believe and why you believe it. In other words, can you articulate what the church has always confessed about Jesus in the gospel? Do you hold those truths to yourself? Can you defend those truths in the context of a world that often challenges truth? In short, this is an exhortation to take truth seriously and to constantly shore up the foundations of that truth for yourself by going again and again to the study of God's word, even being prepared in the process to make an argument for what we believe and why we believe it. Then third, our author instructs us to consider how to quote, “Stir up one another to love and good works and encourage one another regularly”. All of which suggests that we cannot neglect the local church. Now, when we tie these first three commands together, I think there's a strong sense in which this third command, this command to stir up one another also kind of draws all of the other commands together. When you think about it, you can't really draw near to God in corporate worship unless you're in the local church. You're going to have a really hard time holding fast to the truth if you're trying to live out your faith alone on an island. All of us then need the local church for the sake of our perseverance. Over the years, the various U.S. military branches U.S. Navy, Army, Air Force, and Marines have used a variety of marketing slogans to try to up their recruitment. Some of you can probably think of some off the top of your head. I think of the one that's been in play for the Marine Corps since 1977, “The Few, the Proud, the Marines”, something like that. One of the worst slogans that has ever come and gone was one that the U.S. Army rolled out in 2001. So leading up to this, the army did some research and found that many young people saw the army as a dehumanizing place where you would lose any sense of individuality. So to combat that perception, in 2001, the army rolled out its “Army of One” slogan. They wanted recruits to know that the individual is valued in the army. So that slogan played into that. It was an attempt to placate this perception that many young people at the time had about the army. By 2006, again, just five years later, that slogan was replaced by Army Strong. The “Army of One” marketing campaign was viewed pretty widely as a pretty big failure in the army recruiting process. Now it was viewed as a failure, but I don't think it takes much thought to understand why it was viewed as a failure. When you sign up for the army, you're also signing up to join a group of people where you have their back, they have your back, and you're working together with other people to accomplish a mission. There's a sense in which an army of one is even a contradiction in terms. So too, there's also a strong sense in which a Christian of one is a contradiction in terms too. Friends, understand that the good news of the gospel is that when Christ saves us, he saves us from a variety of things. He saves us from sin and death. He saves us from the power of our sin. He saves us from the devil. He also saves us into a people. His church is in the context of the local church, not where we lose our individuality, but where we receive the accountability that we all need to live lives that honor God. It's in the context of the local church where we put our gifts to use and serve each other. It's where we receive things like word and sacrament, means that God has promised to use for our spiritual nourishment. The author of Hebrews, is going to come around to this later in Hebrews 13 and tell us to submit to our spiritual leaders, something that we cannot do apart from the local church. So let me ask you this, are you committed to the local church? When I ask that, I don't mean, are you committed to the idea of the local church in the abstract? I mean, are you committed right now or are you in the process of being committed to the local church? You see, our passage encourages us to be committed to something very specific, flesh and blood people with real faces who have likewise been purchased by the blood of Christ. It urges us to commit to a specific people to regularly encourage those people and even to actively think about how to love other people in the church for their own spiritual good. There are a lot of reasons why it might seem reasonable to walk away from the church or neglect the church. The local church, after all, is a cauldron of sinners where we're constantly the sinned and the sinned against or the sinners and the sin against, and the local church forces us to deal with things that we'd otherwise like to avoid. There's a reason why John Calvin said, “They who depart from the church give themselves up to Satan.” Now, I understand that might sound strong to some of you, but Calvin is just reflecting what the Bible has to say about the tragedy when someone makes a shipwreck of their faith and either is excommunicated from the church or more often than not, excommunicates themselves from the church. That language that I just quoted from Calvin is actually the same language that the apostle Paul uses in 1 Timothy 1:20, to describe two specific people who made shipwreck of their faith and were excommunicated from the church. Being apart from the church trying to do spiritual life apart from the local church, friends, is not a good place to be. So rather than retreating from the church, the Bible would have it, and our passage specifically right here would have us lean into the local church to meet together in person regularly and encourage each other all the more in view of the eternity that awaits us. So this is the charge to persevere. First and foremost, rest in everything that Christ has done know that the security we have in the Christian life is anchored to the one who is exalted and reigns in the heavenly places. Christ has already done everything for our salvation. Then he calls us to something, he calls us to make use of things that he's left us with for our spiritual nourishment. Things like the local church to stay the course in the Christian life. A Warning to Endure Now that he's issued this charge, well, then he turns to consider what happens if somebody doesn't persevere in Christ. What happens if somebody walks away from Christ and walks away from the church for good? Well this leads to our second point, a warning to endure. When we turn to verse twenty-six, we are coming to the fourth of five worrying passages in Hebrews. If you recall, we've encountered a number of these warning passages elsewhere in Hebrews. It's a pretty typical characteristic of Hebrews to include these various warning passages, and these warning passages are intended at their heart to show us the importance of pursuing Christ throughout the entirety of our lives by holding out the consequences for giving up on our faith. In short, should we decide at some point in our lives to go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of truth? Well, our author tells us that judgment is what's going to result. Now, the first question we have to ask about this passage is who are those who are sinning deliberately after receiving a knowledge of the truth? Who are those people? Well, let's start with saying who those people are not. Understand that our author here isn't talking about the believer who struggles with sin. This isn't about the Christian who struggles with some sin, though continues to grieve it, to repent from it, seek accountability for it, and so on and so forth. We all struggle with sin, this passage isn't speaking about that kind of person. So let me encourage you from the outset that if there are particular sins besetting sins that you're struggling with right now, repent from them, seek accountability for them, keep pursuing Jesus in them. Also know and be encouraged that this passage isn't picturing or portraying you in your sin. Rather, the person in view here is what we would call an apostate. An apostate, according to our author, is a person who continually sins deliberately after being trained in the truth. This refers to a person who may have at one point or another professed faith in Christ, but who are now brazenly living life apart from Christ, apart from the church, and aren't in any way pricked by a sense of guilt. Later in the passage, this person is described as someone who, “Who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and has outraged the spirit of grace.” I'm quoting from verse 29 and the imagery here is quite vivid when you think about it. To trample underfoot is a statement of disdain and contempt, putting Christ underneath your foot. This is somebody the author of Hebrews, has labored so extensively and eloquently to exalt. Now Hebrews, you're now treating him as somebody lower than dirt, as if he's lower than dirt. Then to profane the blood of the covenant that plays off Old Testament sacrificial language, where Christ's blood is treated as common and unfit for sacrifice and to outrage the spirit of grace. Well, that's to treat with contempt the one who has graciously worked in their midst in the church. Our author, then, has in mind someone who was very much a part of the church. A member of the covenant community. Then at some point these people decide, for whatever reason, to reject Christ completely and happily entertain sin. Now, before we go any further, I want to drop two important theological anchors on this topic of perseverance, just so we don't get the wrong idea of what our author's communicating. The first thing we need to know about this wider theological conversation on perseverance and endurance is that this passage isn't teaching us that a believer, a true believer, could ever finally fall away. Now it is true that true believers could go through seasons of doubt or being given to sin here or there. Yet as Thomas Watson, Puritan, once wrote, “Though grace may indeed be shaken with fears and doubts, it cannot be plucked up by the roots.” Jesus gets at this too in John 10:27-28, where he tells us, 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. John 10:27-28, ESV Now it is true that there may be people we walk with in the church who at one time or another seemed to be walking well, but then eventually make the decision to turn away from grace. If that continues indefinitely, well, that doesn't mean that person has lost their salvation theologically speaking. Rather, it means that they were never truly believers in the first place. This is John's evaluation of individuals who departed from Christ and from the church in his own day. In 1 John 2:19, he writes 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19, ESV All that being said, these warning passages in Hebrews, including this one in Hebrews chapter ten, are a means to jolt us to our senses, especially when we're entertaining sin. They aren't teaching that a true believer could ever lose their salvation. That's the first theological anchor to keep in mind. The second one I want to drop is this, there may be people in our lives, even right now who we can think of, who appear to have fallen away, who appear to be in this apostate kind of state. Yet that doesn't follow that they've done so conclusively. You see, we may know people who at present don't want anything to do with Christ and the church. People who are dabbling in sin and their present trajectory looks ominous, but we still hold out hope that they would one day return to Christ. We still pray for those people and even plead with them to come to their senses and as many opportunities as we have from our perspective, though, until death takes them, we can hold out hope for their repentance. If that doesn't happen well, it's then that our author has some hard things to say. So what happens then, according to our passage, for the one who walks down this road and who never turns back? Well, our author tells us that eternal judgment follows, in verse thirty, “the Lord will judge his people.” Now, recall that our author throughout Hebrews has been in conversation with the Old Testament. Specifically, he's been in conversation with the Old Testament ceremonies and sacrifices and he's constantly been comparing and contrasting that system to what Christ has done to show that Christ Jesus is better than anything has come before. To show he's superior to any of that stuff. Now in our passage, he draws another contrast to show that while the excellencies of Jesus Christ far surpass anything of the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, and the judgments do as well. Notice in verse twenty-eight that our author tells us what happened. He reminds us what happened in that sacrificial system when someone willfully broke the law of Moses, if there were two or three witnesses and you were found guilty of breaking the law of Moses and the Old Testament, what happened? You died, death, capital punishment. For the one who rejects Christ, the one that the entire Old Testament law and sacrificial system pointed to, the consequences are worse. It's an eternal death. In the mid 1800s, there was a Russian by the name of Fyodor Dostoyevsky, who published a book in English that we know as “Notes from a Dead House”. It was a book that recounted Dostoyevsky, his four year imprisonment in a Siberian labor camp, that is a gulag. Now, throughout Dostoyevsky, his book, he's constantly giving us windows into the state of mind of his fellow prisoners. At one point, he narrates for us just how difficult prisoners had it when they initially were sentenced to their prison term and had to begin their prison sentence. Now, typically, Dostoyevsky tells us that when a prisoner was already in prison for a bit, they tended to accept their sentences. Very few times that they ever try to escape from prison or anything like that. Yet before a prisoner came to trial, before a prisoner came to prison while they were still on trial, some would go to irrational lengths to postpone their prison sentences because they couldn't take what was about to happen to them. Dostoevsky tells us a story where someone was apparently sentenced at trial to serve a minimum period of time in a labor camp, three years or so. After the trial and before they were shipped off to this Siberian labor camp, they would somehow commit another crime so that they'd have to be retried again. They buy themselves a few days, maybe a few weeks. Even the trial would have to start again and they'd be sentenced again. Now, this was a completely irrational move because ultimately the prisoners were handed either double or triple their prison sentence in the process, but for them, as long as they could delay judgment for a day, for two days, for a week and buy some time to some of these prisoners, thinking irrationally, it just didn't matter. Well, friends understand that to step away from Christ, to reject the gospel, to uproot yourself from the people of God, the best you can hope for is to delay judgment. Any decision we make to embrace our sin and live our lives apart from Christ may be a temporary distraction and may allow us to do what our sinful hearts really crave. But in the end, judgment will come, and any decision we make apart from coming back to Christ and embracing the gospel once again is as irrational as the prisoners and Dostoevsky's day. Now, maybe you know someone right now, or maybe this would even describe yourself where you have one foot in the door and one foot out. Nobody really knows that except for you, and the way out is looking more appealing by the day. Now, to be sure, we all have spiritually dry seasons in our life, but one of the functions of this passage, as we've said before, is to jolt us awake and recognize that there are very real spiritual and tragic consequences for walking away from Christ. So if that's the path that you right now are thinking about entertaining, to whatever degree you might be entertaining it, let this warning passage push you back on course, back into the hands of the one who was already judged for the sin of his people in the person of Jesus Christ. Hear this warning passage as a means of grace for your perseverance, because that's what it's intended to do. Now that our author has spoken these hard but necessary words for us to cling to. He ends for us with more of a note of encouragement as he reminds us of the equipment that we need as we live out the Christian life and persevere to the end. He tells us that the equipment we need is actually quite simple. It's an abiding faith in the promises of God. The Way of Endurance So this leads to our third point, the way of endurance. Beginning in verse thirty-two, we see that our author calls his readers to recount the former days. We see that in your text, but what he has in mind here aren't the former days of the Old Covenant, not the former days of Moses, days he's already commented so extensively about. Rather, he calls his audience to reflect upon their own personal history when they face a lot of pressure to throw in the towel on Jesus and on the church. They're looking at the text. We hear that sometimes these Christians in their past were publicly exposed to reproach and affliction. Another verb here indicates that whatever they went through, and we're not entirely sure it probably involves some kind of public shaming or mockery. Then in addition to suffering themselves, our author tells us that they also stood by their brothers and sisters who also suffered. They were partners with those who were so treated. Perhaps this is one of the ways they encouraged each other. As the author of Hebrews would have us do back in verse twenty-five. Nevertheless, we then learn in our passage that these Christians also had to endure. Yet one more thing they had to endure the plundering of their property, either through imperial edict or mob rule or both. Now again, we don't really know, this is actually an interesting historical window into the audience, the original readers of Hebrews. We ultimately don't know the specific persecution in view, but we do know that throughout the latter half of the first century, especially in Rome, Christians often had to face these sorts of things. They were frequent targets of slander. The Roman historian Tacitus, who wasn't a Christian at all, set around this time that Christians were a people who were engaged in quote, “a deadly and dangerous superstition”. They were also arrested often for just being Christians. The same historian Tacitus also reports that Christians in his own day were arrested on trumped up charges, one of the charges being, “hatred of the human race”. Christians sometimes did have their property plundered. A few centuries later, a historian looks back on the latter half of the first century when Emperor Démission reigned and tells us that Christians, certain Christians, were exiled just for being a Christian. Then when they were exiled, their property was confiscated by imperial edict in the process. So Christians endured a lot. These Christians endured a lot. Whatever the specific situation viewing these Christians, how did they endure? They endured, but how did they endure? Well, look, they joyfully accepted the plundering of their property. They took it in stride. They joyfully accepted the sufferings that were thrown their way. So why in the world would a Christian do that? Why in the world would they just take something like that? Well, according to our author, they endured this way because they knew that they had a better possession and an abiding one. They endured the loss that they suffered because they were confident that there was so much more to be gained in Christ. In short, they endured in the past because they had a real and abiding faith in the promises of God. If you're looking at your passage, you'll notice that then in verses thirty-seven and thirty-eight our author cites another Old Testament text, something he often does in Hebrews, as we've seen a number of times. This time he cites from Habakkuk 2:4. Habakkuk is one of the minor prophets in the Old Testament, and he's picking up on something that Habakkuk wrote. It's fitting that our author would quote from Habakkuk at this juncture because the prophet Habakkuk, in his own day some six hundred years earlier from when the author of Hebrews is writing, knew all too well issues of suffering and injustice. He's also writing to the people of God about issues of suffering and injustice and how to deal with some of those things. So from Habakkuk, our author takes what he had to say some 600 years earlier and applies it to the situation of his readers in the first century. What does he have to say? Well, first he tells them that the coming one will come and will not delay. In short, he tells them to be encouraged because despite the sufferings and injustice that they're dealing with in the present, Christ Jesus really is coming again. Injustice and suffering will not be ignored. It will not have the final word because Christ is coming again to make all things new. While we wait for the God of justice to bring all things to right, which he will do when Christ comes again, how does he call his readers to wait in the present? How does he call us to wait in the present? Well, that's the next thing he tells us where in verse thirty-eight, we learn, “my righteous one shall live by faith”. Friends, when we face evil in this world that places the church in the crosshairs and when the church abroad suffers for their faith, like the original readers of Hebrews suffered for their faith, there's a lot that we wish that we had to navigate that context. Perhaps you wish you had rhetorical persuasion as we speak into an irrational world, or legal muscle to fight back against laws and statutes that target the church, or even security to protect ourselves just in case violence spills over into the church, as it often does for the persecuted church around the world. While there are merits to walking through this sinful world with that kind of wisdom, according to our author, at the end of the day, the equipment that we need above everything else is pretty simple. It's steadfast and abiding faith in the promises of God. It was by faith that these same Christians endured the struggle that they had to face in the past, and it's by the same faith that they and we will endure in the present. To cite the Puritan John Owen, “Sincere faith will carry people through all difficulties, hazards and troubles to the certain enjoyment of eternal blessedness.” So ask yourself, is the object of your faith Jesus Christ? Understand that we can look like Christians and talk like Christians all we want.That's not going to get you through the kind of trials that our author wants to prepare us for only a faith that's supplied by Christ and abides in. Christ is going to carry us through whatever we're called to walk through in the future. So do you have that kind of steadfast and abiding faith in the promises of God at the end of the day? Friends, this is the way to persevere. This is the way to endure, it's faith. Application So as we conclude our sermon and prepare to come to the table and taste and see that the Lord is good, let me leave us with this. Friends rest in the certainty of God's power to preserve his church and his people rest in the certainty of God's power to preserve his church and his people. We pilgrim through a world where there are many things that seem volatile, whether it's the experience of a Christian leader who once seemed like such a bulwark in the faith suddenly fail and in a way that no one would have predicted, to close personal friends slowly drifting from the faith they want shared in common with you, to even something more severe outbursts of persecution that often arise throughout the world against the church. It's hard to find one thing under heaven that we can rest upon with certainty. Yet the gospel reminds us that because we have a God who is unchangeable. When he says to his church, as he does in Philippians 1:6 that, ” he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.” Well, we can rest and we can rest in certainty that what he has promised to do. The God who is unchangeable in his being, his essence, and his promises is faithful to accomplish. So maybe you're worried about the church abroad right now, worried how the church in a place like Afghanistan could ever endure amidst the current persecution they're facing. Or you're worried about the church at home and worried about what the church in America could be facing in the future and what that would mean for you and me, what that would even mean for Harvest Community Church? Or maybe you're worried about your own perseverance or the perseverance of people you love who you see drifting right now, maybe even towards the exit door? Well, probably about those things, be wise in the way that you walk in the world and the way you counsel people in those things, but also rest above everything else in the fact that God, who is unchangeable, will by no means abandon his church, nor will he abandon his people. Pray with me. Gracious, Heavenly Father, Lord, you have given us some hard words to consider, but words that we need to hear. Words about what it means to persevere in the Christian life. Things that you call us to lay hold of for our own perseverance and endurance of the Christian life. Lord, we confess that in many ways we've neglected these very good things that you've given us as a grace for us to endure. Father, we pray that for any among us who might be drifting right now, Lord, that you would pull them back, pull them back to embrace things like the local church and the means of grace that you dispense in the local church. Pull them back to experience the grace of the fellowship of the saints. Lord, would you remind us as we face a volatile world and are faced with things that seem so uncertain in this world that you are the God who infallibly holds your church and holds your people fast? We ask all this in Christ's name. Amen.

Amazing group tonight folks. Thank you all for your comments and questions. Wonderful as always! Synopsis: We continued our reading of Hypothesis 13 which puts before us the idea of moving to a remote place, of embracing exile - as it were - for the sake of living for Christ alone. The lives of the desert Fathers call us to let go of our attachment to the things of this world and all that gives us a false sense of security and stability. We are to cling to God alone. We are strangers and exiles in this world and we will be hated by it as Christ himself was hated.  None of this calls to imitate the Fathers by going to the deserts of Egypt but rather to enter into the desert of the human heart. We are to draw back and retreat to Christ in order that we might more clearly see the depths of his love and his promise of life; as well as see the things that are an impediment to it. In our retreat into silence and prayer, and subordinating all things to our relationship with God, we prepare ourselves to fight against the enemies, the demons, until we are made free and reach the rest of the kingdom.   Such a life is not rooted in hard work. We seek our identity not even in the performance of religious activities or driving ourselves relentlessly in the ascetical life. Rather, our worth and identity come to us from what God gives us. All is grace and it is only when we let go of the illusion that this world can provide for and fill the void within our hearts that we will come to know that love in its fullness. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:18:00 Anthony: Clinging to God alone, nothing is secure....well, 2020 ans 2021 have offered us opportunity to ease into that kind of virtue.   00:23:28 Anthony: From historian Charles Coulombe I learned that our valuing of excessive work is a Puritan deformity.   00:33:56 Joseph Muir: Of course there is value in being diligent and having a good work ethic, of being responsible and goal oriented, and of planning for the future. With that said, this tendency of finding one's identity in their work is, I think, where one veers off course   01:08:49 Justin Massengill : No, Justin is my Christian name which I tend to use since my conversion.    01:14:37 Ambrose Little: It's hard to put much value in “hard work” without ending up serving it and having it become a significant measure against which we judge ourselves. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Where our treasure is, there is our heart. It seems so very easy to get sucked in, ever so incrementally so that we don't even realize it's happening, until one day what started as a tame regard for our how hard we work has become our identity and our master.  If on the other hand, we prize above all else pleasing and loving God and making that our only goal, we can guard against that danger.    At some point in our lives, this may mean working hard. At another, perhaps when we are sick, it may mean simply offering our suffering to God and offering the simplest of prayers. In health, in sickness, in work, in play—all in God and to God and for God, with gratitude and trust.   01:16:51 Lyle: Like St. Peter, I must "Step Out".   01:18:28 Anthony: Working in the garage late at night can be crazy - irrational with a job to wake up to - but also be a "mystical" moment.   01:22:51 Lyle: They are such great counselors!  

Short Introduction to John L. Dagg 1794-1884 The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

The Founding of the American Board of Missions - from the American Baptist Magazine of 1833 The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

Therapists Shaming Therapists An interview with Katie Read about therapists shaming each other when they raise their fees or start playing bigger. Curt and Katie talk with Katie about the puritanical culture within the therapist community that leads to group think, public shaming, and milquetoast messaging to mitigate their fear that anything different will be attacked. We look at reasons behind this (jealousy, guilt, shame, and moralism) as well as what therapists can do to step outside of this culture to create more success.   It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. Interview with Katie Read, LMFT, Six Figure Flagship Katie takes lessons from her nearly-20 successful years in the field to help clinicians grow...then OUTgrow...their practices. Immediately upon licensure, Katie was made Director of a large Transitional Aged Youth program in Oakland, CA. Later, she was recruited to Direct one of Sacramento's largest Wraparound Programs, and from there she moved into the role of Director of Clinical Supervision, personally supervising 40+ interns towards licensure. Concurrently, Katie had private practices in multiple cities, taught graduate psychology students, and wrote and created therapist training materials. Katie is also a special needs mom and loves helping other moms tune into their own intuition and lead their best-possible lives by taking the sometimes-scary leap into following what's best for them, deep down. She is the creator of: The Clinician to Coach® Academy, The Clini-Coach® Certification, and the Six-Figure Flagship™ Program. She's a little bit obsessed with helping therapists get profitable doing the creative, out-of-the-box, authentic work you're called to do! In this episode we talk about: How therapists are treating each other The concept of trolling, piling on, shame The Article in the Atlantic – New Puritans – and the concept of the illiberal left How identity plays a role and the group dynamics within therapist Facebook groups The shaming related to increasing your fees Katie Read's origin story as an on the street social work The value placed on sacrifice and avoiding guilt for the difference in privilege when working with clients who are impoverished Socially-prescribed perfectionism, self-imposed perfectionism The fine line about what is acceptable to charge or make as a therapist Cancel culture and the lack of allowance for errors Echo chambers, factions, and exclusion The fear of dissenting opinions The low context of the internet paired with the high context nature of a therapist's job Milquetoast messaging to avoid getting attacked Dialing down authenticity to fit into what is acceptable Challenging our financial mindset Cultural and societal factors that frame us as cheap labor The seeming requirement for therapists to suffer in order to understand our clients The reality of therapists as business owners Therapist guilt for “earning money” Feminized professions and the expectation of doing things out the goodness of our hearts Rapidly changing social rules versus entrenchment in what has been How this identity shift is spilling over into real life Jealousy, guilt, and shame, and moralism The best therapists have the worst impostor syndrome How to navigate when you're a therapist going against the grain The importance of every therapist doing their own money mindset work Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start. If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.  Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them. Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.  The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code:  MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.   Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Katie Read's program: Six Figure Flagship Article in the Atlantic – The New Puritans by Anne Applebaum   Relevant Episodes: Therapist Haters and Trolls Advocacy in the Wake of Looming Mental Healthcare Workforce Shortages In it for the Money? Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset (with Tiffany McLain) Not Your Typical Psychotherapist (with Ernesto Segismundo) How to Overcome Impostor Syndrome to leave your Agency Job (with Patrick Casale)   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group  Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey.   Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode is sponsored by Trauma Therapist Network.   Katie Vernoy  00:04 Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit trauma therapist network.com To learn more,   Curt Widhalm  00:27 Listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.   Announcer  00:31 You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Kurt Wilhelm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:47 Welcome back modern therapists, this is modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. BLEEP you! This is the podcast where we talk about all things therapists, therapy related, therapist communities. And we are talking about the ways that we treat each other and a lot of this happens in the online groups. You know who you are. And   Katie Read  01:20 But do they?   Curt Widhalm  01:22 I think they do. Well, helping us here in this conversation today coming back to the show. Our good friend Katie Read. So before we before we start shaming the shamers.   Katie Vernoy  01:37 For shame!   Curt Widhalm  01:39 Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're bringing into the world.   Katie Read  01:44 Hi, I'm Katie Read. Thank you for having me back. I missed you guys. We haven't been around here for a while.   Katie Vernoy  01:50 I know!   Katie Read  01:51 Good to be back. Although I did get to see you in person at the conference recently, which was amazing. So anyway, you can find me over at six figure flagship dot com. I do. One of the things that plenty of therapists like to shame, which is encouraging therapists who are creative who had that little spark that maybe someday they want to outgrow the therapist office, I... whispering under my hand here, I help them do that. Lest all the shamers jumped out at us. That's what I do. But I have like you been very active in therapists groups over the last couple years, and been often just shocked by the level of shaming that can happen in these groups. And it's so funny, I don't know about you guys. I've told this to other people, non therapists, like neighbors, friends just being like, Yeah, it's amazing. Those groups, people are astounded to hear that therapists would shame one another like it would never occur to them that therapists would be because they think of us all as being nice and wonderful and accepting and loving and caring and empathic, and all of these things. And I know we all three have had conversations in the background, like why does that fall apart on the internet, and I really do think it's just on the internet. It's not in person. It's just on the internet, but on the internet and therapists group. So not that I have any grand answers for this. But I'm super interested in this conversation today.   Katie Vernoy  03:18 We've talked about this in some ways before, and we'll link to those episodes in the show notes that we've got a therapist, haters and trolls. And there's a couple others, I'll look at them when I'm getting ready to put this together. But to me, I think the biggest thing that I see that that has always been shocking to me is the the piling on, that happens at someone put something out there, it becomes given that that is wrong and bad. And somebody has an opinion that this is wrong and bad. And then there's the defenders, but then there are the piler on-ers, is that is that a word? The people that then cosign on this negative information. And then all of a sudden, it's like the snowball effect. And there's like, hundreds of comments, and you are horrible and all of this stuff. And I think that there is an element of this that I think we do want to call people out when they're doing things that are harmful. I think the the criteria for what is harmful sometimes feels a little bit wiggly to me   Curt Widhalm  04:26 I kind of started looking at this more from just kind of a an academic approach. And what sparked this, for me was an article in The Atlantic called the new Puritans by Anne Applebaum. And it's an incredible article, we'll link to it in the show notes. But it starts to talk about the illiberal left, which many therapists politically identify in kind of this political compass of the left side. And what happens in echo chambers like there pice groups is that it becomes many people coming with a desire for positive social change and social mores are changing that. We've seen this happen not only in society, but in our field over the last 20 years. But what happens seemingly is, we're developing this this collective identity in these groups that becomes part of our own identities and seeing other people acting even slightly different than how we would act ends up becoming almost there's harm to our own self identity that needs to be processed and spoken out against when it comes to things like, hey, I want to raise my fees on my clients by $5 per session.   Katie Read  05:51 I find this one absolutely fascinating because I, I don't think I've ever seen a post go by in a group where a therapist has said, Hey, I'm thinking about raising my fees, and have not gotten at least some very heavy negativity thrown their way. Which is so fascinating to me. Because if you step back and you look at any career on Earth, we assume about every human being in the world, that you will always be on a quest to kind of step up to the next level in your career step up to the next level in your income. This is understood if anyone tells you they've gotten a raise, they've gotten a promotion, you say congrats, that's great. When therapists who are self employed, who have only themselves to answer to they are their own bosses, and when they say it's time for my yearly raise, and I have earned my yearly raise this year, and they attempt to give it to themselves, what do the therapist communities often do? Jump in with really crazy stuff really crazy? Oh, I don't know, I didn't get into this career to make money. I couldn't imagine putting my clients under that kind of strange, just really, really deeply shaming words coming at them. And I find it fascinating. You know, and I'm not exactly sure where it comes from. But it's interesting, because in prepping for this podcast, I was thinking about my early days as an intern and, and I do wonder, probably, at least for me, this was part of it. I spent many years even before I went to grad school, I was doing social work type roles in very, very, very impoverished areas. And then during grad school, I was working with foster kids. And then after grad school, I was an on the street social worker in inner city, Oakland, with teenagers and young adults, most of whom were homeless, or they were sex workers or drug addicts, gang members, like Oh, terrible, really difficult lives, right, like really terrible life situations. And I was dead broke, that job paid next to nothing, it was an internship job. And in a way, coming home to my crappy apartment, where people got mugged right outside in broad daylight and eating my ramen noodles, because that was all I could afford. I didn't have to feel so guilty going into work the next day, because my life was certainly better than my clients lives were at that time. But it was still rough, like things were still rough at my end. And I wonder if I remember at the time, I would say to people, I would say, this is the hardest work you can imagine doing. But if you can do it, you just have to do it. Because these people just need the help. And they need the support. And they need people on the street. And I had this very grand idea of what it was to be an on the street social worker doing that kind of work, and, and staying poor for it. And oh, it took me a long, long time to realize that I had to put the air mask on myself first, you know, like on the plane, like it took me a very long time to come to that change. But I wonder if some part of that for a lot of us does start because I think many of us do start in those types of jobs, those types of internships where you're seeing such poverty, you're seeing such difficult lives and you do feel a guilt around that.   Curt Widhalm  08:57 Even in your story here. Part of what I'm hearing is you lead that off with this is unique to therapists. So you're already framing this as part of therapist identity means that you have to do these certain things. Look at the shame that we put on people who go straight from grad school into private practice, like they are bypassing part of that identity. And, you know, the echoes of the criticisms is, well, that's such a privileged place to come from that you didn't have to go through this with all of these other clients. And a big part of that is in this identity becomes this thing called socially prescribed perfectionism that you must do this because what you're doing reflects on me and in combination with socially prescribed perfectionism comes this self imposed perfectionism that I must act this way. Yeah. And if other people whose identities reflects on the same way as mine And that's not how I see myself doing, I have to deal with that internal conflict, and it's much easier to tear you down than it is for me to wrestle with. All right, you do you and I'll do me and we'll both potentially help out the people that we're best suited to help out with.   Katie Read  10:19 That's so interesting. And it's so true. And I wonder. So like, I'm thinking about the people who I did know from grad school who came from different backgrounds who did go straight into private practice and whatnot. And you do wonder, do they feel any of that guilt? Do they carry any of that with them? Does that bounce off of them that they're like, what I was doing exactly what you just said, Curt, like what I was meant to do, I was helping the people I was meant to help. This is where I'm well suited. It's just interesting.   Katie Vernoy  10:45 And it's, it's something where this idea of perfectionism what what resonated for me was this, it's very thinly defined. And not only have I heard the, the negative backlash around charging a high fee, and and I don't know, necessarily that I've seen a lot of the negative feedback with I'm raising my fee by $5 Next year, but it's anybody that has a premium fee gets roasted. And anyone that talks about charging very little or being on insurance panels, also gets roasted, because you're undervaluing the profession, you're, you're making it harder for me to make money. And so there's this really fine line of what's acceptable,   Katie Read  11:27 Acceptable, huh.   Katie Vernoy  11:28 And so this this perfectionism around, I can't, I can't make too much, but I also can't charge too little. It just it feels very crazy making. And I think this, this notion of we're trying to validate our own identity through making everyone else be like us, or like, what the collective has decided is okay, feels kind of scary.   Curt Widhalm  11:57 And the extension of this goes beyond just, you know, the parent comments in some of these, these groups, that there becomes almost this effort to cancel people across multiple posts, that there seems to be so little room for error, and especially in late, like I said, social mores changing of, you know, a lot of the things that I see is, you know, not doing the emotional work or not doing the education work for other therapists who are potentially asking questions around things like critical race theory and involving, you know, wonderment about communities that they might not have experience with that. While there is validity on both sides is I've seen some of this extension go across, you know, bringing up these kinds of arguments across separate posts across separate days, weeks, even months, that his efforts towards this cancel culture esque type thing that serves to only make this problem even worse, by creating even stronger echo chambers of we're only going to listen to people who think exactly like us. And what ends up happening is we get these factions of, you know, well, here's the group of like minded people who sit over here. And here's the group of like minded people who sit over here, and here's the people who are okay with microwaving fish in the office, and they're okay in their own corner. But then it just makes it to where it's uninviting for anybody to have any kind of a dissenting opinion. Because and this is particular to the internet groups that you brought up. Here at the beginning, Katie, internet culture is very, very low context. And therapists are very, very high context people. This is a sociological phenomenon, that high context is understanding people where they're coming from, you know, we spend years studying how to get the high context of our clients. And we're used to communicating with people in this very, very high context sort of way. And then you get like one paragraph on a Facebook post to be able to try and explain something to somebody else. And it's just this very, really low context like fast moving group of people who kind of opt in and opt out but aren't consistently there. That makes it really enticing to pick on well, you're missing all of these high context things that just it's critical, and it's something that because of internet culture, therapists aren't used to having to receive information in that low context sort of way in embracing how we communicate online. Mind. In other words, we think that we're really smart in some areas of our life, and therefore all areas of our life should be really smart. But the internet is not that place.   Katie Read  15:11 And the internet dumbs us down. Well, it's interesting. And a moment ago, I just lost my train of thought you had said something a moment ago that   Curt Widhalm  15:18 I do that to people.   Katie Vernoy  15:20 Just keep talking, it's   Katie Read  15:22 10 minutes back. There was something I just lost it   Katie Vernoy  15:27 Well, keep thinking because I had something you know, a few minutes back when you were talking about your, your experience as kind of an on the on the streets, social worker and having to overcome that self imposed identity around if I am not so privileged, I don't feel guilty going to work. How did you work to overcome that? Because I think we're looking at being shamed for it. And and you did it within that culture, like I know, that I would imagine you have probably been shamed for for what you do, as you know, a six figure flagship even having that is so money title. So right, having the right so and so actually, how do you how have you gotten through it, I guess.   Katie Read  16:12 Yeah. And I can tell my story, but it's interesting, because you just reminded me of what Curt had said that I had wanted to comment on. Because it's all related. You had to Curt the end. And even Katie had said previously, there's this very narrow band of what kind of therapists are willing to accept as appropriate. And because the echo chambers are loud, and because the pile on culture is intense, within therapists groups, what happens is people are terrified to speak. And so we end up with very very milquetoast messaging. That doesn't challenge that doesn't potentially disagree, we end up with people who only want a message in ways that they will not be attacked for because as we all know, it's very painful and scary. If someone's coming at you online, some stranger online and other people are piling on and everyone would love to avoid ever having that situation. So we dial down what is true, what is authentic, what is important, we dial it down into what we hope will fit this narrow little brass band of appropriateness. And it's interesting like us, for me, it took me years and years. I mean, I eventually went from we eventually moved my husband and I to a different town, I opened up a small private practice. And it's funny, I was one of those therapists, and I was in California, where therapy rates are high. But I was the person where I was charging $90 an hour. And I was the person who set it like this, when a new client came in or called me and said, What's your fee? I went? Well, it's 90. But I can slide I can slide. What do you need, I mean, I can do whatever you need, I can really I get whatever you need, whatever you need, like that was me all the time. Because again, I was still carrying this guilt, about even charging that much and feeling like well, I couldn't even afford to go see me for therapy. So how can I think somebody else's, I was very much in my clients pockets. And what was really interesting was, I had been in this office for a while, you know, I rented my time other people came in and out. And there were several interns in the office, all supervised by this one supervisor. And I was speaking with one of the interns when we were crossing paths one day, and at this point, I had been a licensed therapist. For years, I had worked my way through community mental health up to being a program director, I had taught grad school, I had done all these things. And I was still charging this low rate because of my own internal money issues. And this intern, I don't know how we got on the subject. But she said, Oh, yeah, our supervisor now she was still in grad school. There's a person in her first year of grad school, an intern seeing clients. And she said, Well, our supervisor won't let us start any lower than 125 as our hourly rate, we're not allowed to slide under that they were private pay 125 for the interns. And my mind was blown. That here I was with years of experience behind me years of training behind me. And I it really in that moment hit me I was like I am doing this wrong. I am absolutely doing this wrong. And I need to start working on this. And some of it was working on my money mindset, honestly, for me, doing what I eventually did and wanting to outgrow the office that was motivated by different things like we moved states and then I wasn't licensed for a year while I went through the licensure process in a new state. So my path out of the office and outgrowing the office was sort of organic. It wasn't a pre plan type of thing. It just happened that I moved into coaching and ended up loving it. But within the coaching world, you really really get challenged very quickly on your financial mindset. And you really actually learn very quickly that the norm in the rest of the world is if you bring great value into someone's life, you are well paid for it. And we therapists continually underestimate the great, great, transformative, wildly important value that we bring into people lives. And whether you choose to continue to do it in the context of therapy or to write a book, or to go on a speaking tour to do any of the number of things that therapists can go out in the world, and do, we do by virtue of our passion, our education, all of these things, we bring great value we bring about great transformation in people's lives, and in most of the rest of the world, that would be naturally richly rewarded. But because of sort of the culture, and I honestly think part of it is just the culture of how government even is set up that we need to be able to have cheap labor to go out and work with the people who need help the most. And so many of us, like we said, started off in community mental health in some form, or in schools, which are very underfunded just, we start off as sort of cheap labor. And it's hard to get out of that mindset that we should always remain just cheap labor, or that what we do is not that highly valued in society where, of course, I don't know about you, I remember, every therapist I've had, and I remember them dearly. And they were hugely impactful at those times in my life, and every one of your clients and everybody out there listening. It's the exact same way, you're hugely impactful.   Curt Widhalm  21:14 You know, as I'm listening to this, and going back to that piece by Anne Applebaum, she makes mention of The Scarlet Letter as kind of this this parallel of what's going on with the liberal left. And the thing about this is one of that one of the major themes from the scarlet letter is the the priest who impregnates Hester, I'm forgetting his name right offhand. But he is seen as more virtuous because his sermons have so much empathy, from his own sins that there's almost this parallel what's going on with the groups here that we're seeing of like, we have suffered this injustice. And therefore we're better at what we do in relating to our clients, because we've done this. And especially when it comes to things like privilege and fees in this kind of stuff. It's like, you're, you're not able to relate to your clients as well. Because you haven't done this suffering, and you haven't done this, and therefore, you must suffer in order to be able to be a better therapist.   Katie Read  22:21 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting, isn't it. And so as some of that just coming down, is that just back to that therapist skills, we were talking just today, I had my meeting with my folks in my clinic coach, six figure flagship, and we were talking, there's one therapist, she's putting an unbelievable amount of work into an event that she's producing just probably hundreds of hours of her labor is going into this work. It's a passion project. She's so excited about it. And she came to the group and she said, I'm donating all the proceeds to charity. And I was like,   Katie Vernoy  22:56 Oh, wow.   Katie Read  22:59 And so we really, we took it apart a lot, like we coach through it a lot in the group. And today in our meeting, and I was, like, you know, like part of this here is that we are also business owners. And when you put in hundreds of hours of unpaid labor on something, you actually need to retain at least the majority of your profits, so that you can reinvest them into your own business, so that you can stay afloat, have savings of money for like all the things that we need to do. But really, to me, what I was hearing was therapist skill was I don't want it to look to anyone, like I'm trying to actually make any money. I want it to look like out of the goodness of my heart, I'm putting on this big event for all my fellow therapists to learn and grow. But God forbid someone think I might earn money from doing this. Yeah. And so it's just it was fascinating, because I don't think there's any other profession, where they would even consider for a minute giving every single bit of all this labor, all this unpaid labor straight to charity, without a second thought, maybe with many second thoughts, but feeling like this is what I should do.   Katie Vernoy  24:05 Yeah, yeah, I just I think about teachers, I think about oftentimes nurses, part of it is kind of feminized professions do have this this impact where the majority of the folks in those professions are non male. And so there is an expectation, this is something we should be doing out of the goodness of our hearts. And it seems very mercenary if we would ask for money for it. You know, there are, you know, during the pandemic, these poor teachers, were finally getting recognition for what they actually do for folks' kids. But as soon as you know, even even well into the pandemic I started to get because I work with some teachers. I was started hearing that people were complaining that the teachers weren't doing enough and we're paying their salaries and why aren't they doing enough? And it's like, whoa, you know, or if they go on strike that is just heartless. So it's heartless. And it's kind of like would you work for the salary that they work for? And then we've seen the same with the Kaiser therapists. That was one of the things that happened. We see the same with nurses.   Curt Widhalm  25:11 I mean, our episode, recently where we talked about, you know, let's just throw more Subway sandwiches at therapists,   Katie Vernoy  25:19 workforce shortage at episode that we just put up.   Curt Widhalm  25:21 Yeah, it's just it's throwing more Subway sandwiches at therapists because, you know, how dare you ask for money. And part of this is as a field that our median age is higher than many other fields. And that anytime that we have a field that has rapidly changing social rules to it, it makes it to where, especially with fields that are older, like ours, the entrenchment becomes a lot more rigid. And so I think that that's contributing to part of this, too, is that there's, there's this almost cultural battle that we're facing within our field that is leading to a new identity. And if we're honest about it, we contribute to that a lot here in the podcast, we do call out things that we don't like, including calling out other therapists calling out other therapists. So we do encourage you to let us know your thoughts and feelings on this publicly in any of the therapist groups. But this happens, systemically it happens individually as well. And, you know, I do see this happening outside of the therapist groups, and actually it is spilling over into in real life as well. To hearing this, you know, from some of the practices, hiring people, where I think rightfully, employees entering into the workforce are asking for living wages. And it is a power balance shifts that is leading to things like some of the workforce shortages that we talked about in the other episode.   Katie Read  27:14 Let me ask you, Curt, because as you were talking about sort of the field being a little bit older, in terms of median age and whatnot, I wonder, and I'm curious, just either of your thoughts on this. Do you feel like so let's say you are out there, whatever age you are, really, but you're a therapist, you've kind of become acclimated to the 50k a year therapist average median income, you've kind of surrendered yourself to the fact that you have a very hard job that you can't talk to anyone about, that you are bound by ethics and confidentiality, that you don't get to come home and vent about your day, you have to keep a lot of things bottled up. And at the same time, you know, you're probably worried every month, if you have a $400 car bill this month, it's gonna throw you over the edge, you're not going to have a cushion for that. And then you go into a therapist group, and you see somebody who says, I charge 200 an hour in my area, and I'm doing great and everything's fine. Do you think part of this backlash is just that feeling of threat, that you can't do that or that you haven't chosen that or that you haven't gone to do whatever it is you need to do internally, whatever that sort of money work is that you need to do to actually start charging closer to your worth as an experienced person in the field?   Curt Widhalm  28:30 Absolutely. 100% think that a lot of where we socially prescribe other therapists to be comes from our own anecdotal histories. And our inability is to deal with our own crap when it comes to our relationships to money, our relationships to our professional identities, that and, you know, this even happens in things that I see like in law ethics workshops, that I teach that it's not even just about money thing, but just how much we distance ourselves from other people who make mistakes. You know, if somebody's name shows up in the spider pages, the disciplinary actions, how quickly are to just like, unfriend them or take them off of our LinkedIn connections? Even if it's something that might points closer to us, you know, you see this and things like people who admit to not being caught up on their notes and just kind of the furthering away, you know, these are ethical and legal responsibilities that we have in our profession. And as compassionate people we tend to have very little compassion for the other people in our profession. When they don't do the same kinds of steps that we think that we should be doing or have been doing all along ourselves.   Katie Vernoy  29:52 You're really saying jealousy, guilt and shame.   Curt Widhalm  29:54 Yes!   Katie Vernoy  29:56 Because I think of like the especially I think with the environment around you, Katie, which is like the six figure flagship, it's people outgrowing the office, it's that kind of notion of very successful, you know, I'm going to make a lot of money, I'm going to, I'm going to live a life. And and you don't argue that that comes easily. I saw your post on kind of hustle seasons. And so I appreciate that. But I think that there's this notion that you can work really hard, create something that's more sustainable and make a lot of money. And I think there's a jealousy there, either of the energy that you personally have. I know I'm jealous of your energy. And then there's also the success that people have, I think there's a jealousy there. And so then it's that kind of like, well, I didn't want it anyway, like that. That's wrong, because I don't think I can get it. I'm jealous that you have it. And so I don't really want it. And this, there's all of these moral reasons and moralizing around why I don't want it. I think what you're talking about Curt is kind of this guilt and shame over, I've been doing things wrong. I can't do that, because it goes against these self imposed values and morals that I've put around being a hard worker, that is one of the people and I am not going to I'm not in this for the money. And I'm doing this because it's so valuable. And even thinking about money is so mercenary and wrong. And so there's that guilt and shame of wanting more, but feeling like it goes against either the collective morals or the personal morals. And so to me, it's like if we think about guilt, shame, and jealousy, I mean, the fact that there is so many of those emotions that come out in these public shreddings, in these social media groups or on pages or whatever, like it just it seems strange to me, that therapist would would have those in such huge, huge, impactful ways.   Katie Read  31:54 It's interesting, too, because I was just putting together a workshop where we talked about how typically the best therapists tend to have the worst imposter syndrome. And I think imposter syndrome falls into what you're talking about, and the fact that because we all tend to be pretty intellectual, pretty academic, you know, even those of us who are super heart led, we all still have like our little academic streak. And I think that we all walk around with this belief that if I am not the top researcher in a particular field, I have nothing to say it's very black and white. If I am not the absolute most published person in this particular theory, I should just sit down and shut up, I know nothing, as opposed to being able to see all the gradients, being able to see all of the expertise that everyone has and that you can bring in that could benefit so many more people. If you were brave enough to kind of fight your own imposter syndrome. Stand up, talk about what you know, help even more people that way.   Katie Vernoy  32:55 Yeah.   Katie Read  32:56 But we get very caught in that. Because this will not win a Pulitzer, I might as well not even write it. I might as well not even try it. And I just want what's the point? What's   Katie Vernoy  33:06 and and how dare you, other person that is doing this? How dare you do that? Because I've decided, even though I may have more knowledge than you   Katie Read  33:17 Yes,   Katie Vernoy  33:17 that I'm not good enough to speak on it. So how dare you!   Katie Read  33:20 How dare you? Exactly. Oh, isn't that so true. And I do think this is what we see play out in therapists groups. And I do think it's terribly sad, because at the end of the day, to me, I always think the lay public are the only losers here. Because when you choose to not speak out, when you choose to not share what you know, when you choose to not be open and vulnerable, and who you are, and say, I know I might not be the world renowned expert on XYZ. But let me tell you a little bit about what I do know, because you might think it's interesting. And I think the thing a lot of therapists don't realize because we're sort of taught to write dissertation style for everything is that the average person doesn't want that. They do want the little tidbit. They do want the little micro snippet that you pulled from an interesting article you read that you couldn't get out of your mind yesterday, share that that's what they want to because it'll get into their head too and it'll help them in their life just like it helps you they don't need your full scope dissertation on anything.   Katie Vernoy  34:19 Yeah.   Curt Widhalm  34:20 So is the answer and stop hanging out with other therapists?   Katie Read  34:29 I don't know let's vote should we go around and vote? I you know it's interesting though, you I definitely think it's something that we talk about in our group is that we talked about how when you even when I when I first started doing the most basic stuff, offering like copywriting for therapists offering basic marketing for therapists in this tiny little way like putting a post on Facebook Hey, need help with your copywriting? You know, these tiny little ways? I had rude people I had predicted people I know going well that's never gonna go anywhere. What are you even doing? Why are you doing that? And so I just want all my students like any time, you are going against the grain a little bit breaking the mold a little bit of what it means to be a helping professional, because what I believe at the end of the day is what you call it doesn't matter as much as what you're actually doing. Are you out there helping people in some form? Is your internal calling to be out there helping people in some form? Great, are you doing it? If you are, and if you feel good and authentic, and you know that you are living out your calling that you are truly helping people in some form? Does it matter if you call it therapy today, and maybe tomorrow, it's consulting, and you have consulting clients, and maybe the next day you build an online course where you help people and maybe you go speak at a school the next day, doesn't matter what form it's in, that you're helping people as long as you are authentically helping people what you were called to do, does the name matter? So you can hang out with a therapist like that. Kurt,   Katie Vernoy  36:00 I hear you saying that hanging out with therapists who have that broader perspective that aren't so tied into the Puritan culture is probably helpful for folks that are really coming, that are pushing against the grain in some way. And and I really resonate with that, because I think that's, that's why we found each other and   Katie Read  36:18 That's what you've done   Katie Vernoy  36:22 We've been trying, you know, we don't we don't avoid the purity culture, we just try to push back against it. But I think it's, it's something where when you're really trying to step out and help people in a bigger way, it is, it is important that you find the right people to spend time with because you can get tamped down by purity culture,   Katie Read  36:40 You can. Well, and I should say this, like for a lot of us, I know for me, when I was I think it is important for therapists to do money work on ourselves, go read the self help books, go, you know, sign up with Tiffany...   Curt Widhalm  36:53 GO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!   Katie Read  36:58 I think it's important to do that. And I think it's important to hang out with people who get it and have done it. And I think for all of us to, there is a way that you can feel good about what you charge and feel good about what you give back. And that that is going to be different for everyone, whether it's that you do a couple free or cheap sessions every single week, or you give a certain amount to charity every year, like whatever that looks like for you. You can still set this up in a way where you're not going to feel like a greedy bastard, for earning a good living where you still know that you are I mean, for me, when I started outgrowing the office, honestly, my entire motivation was security. My husband worked at a large multinational corporation that was doing layoffs, rolling layoffs every single month. And every single month, it felt like we were going to be any minute we were going to be homeless because he was going to get laid off. And that was the bread and butter of the family. And what then and all I really wanted was some security. And so that drove me and I was like I said we had moved states. And so I didn't have a license in my new state. I couldn't just go open a therapy office, it drove me to get creative and do something else. But I think when your motivation comes from that, like there's, I don't know, a lot of therapists who are like, I'm gonna go get rich so that I can have seven maaser body it's like, it's just not who we are, you know, like, that's just not what we're doing here.   Katie Vernoy  38:16 Well, we do have to end here, but but I think we also if there is a therapist that wants to get ready to get seven Montserrado for months, seven months. Go for it do. So before we close up, where can people find you?   Katie Read  38:30 Six Figure flagship.com is the main program that we run right now it's an application only program for mental health therapists who do want to outgrow the office, that is the best place to find me. And otherwise, I'll just be kind of hanging out with you guys.   Katie Vernoy  38:44 I love it. Always again, it   Curt Widhalm  38:47 We will include a link to Katie's websites in our show notes. You can find those over at MTS g podcast.com. And follow us on our social media join our Facebook groups modern therapists group and   Katie Read  39:01 Or we will shame you.    Curt Widhalm  39:03 we actually have a really good group that seems to   Katie Read  39:08 No I said we will shame them for not joining it, we find them.   Curt Widhalm  39:14 Some we will post those links and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy And Katie Read.   Katie Vernoy  39:20 Thanks again to our sponsor, Trauma Therapist Network.   Curt Widhalm  39:24 If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you can know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though it's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect consults and network with colleagues around the country.   Katie Vernoy  40:01 Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code MTSG20. At trauma therapist network.com Once again that's capital MTSG, the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com   Announcer  40:17 Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

For Halloween weekend, we're dropping some of our spookiest past episodes back into the feed. In this interview from August 2018, Dan Neff, curator of Dedham's 1637 Fairbanks House, shares evidence he's uncovered of countermagic at the house. Generations of the Fairbanks family, perhaps spanning hundreds of years, used charms and hex marks in an attempt to ward off evil forces that might have included witches, demons, and even disease. Full show notes: http://www.hubhistory.com/episodes/puritan-countermagic-revisited-episode-178/

For Halloween weekend, we're dropping some of our spookiest past episodes back into the feed. In 1639 and 1644, Boston founder John Winthrop described close encounters that sound like they were pulled from a discarded X-Files script. There were unexplained lights darting around the sky in formation at impossible speeds, ghostly sounds, and witnesses who claimed to have lost time. They're now considered the first recorded UFO sightings in North America. Full show notes: http://www.hubhistory.com/episodes/episode-63-puritan-ufos/

In a post-Pequot world, in a post-Miantonomo world, Narragansett Bay and all of Rhode Island was a coveted piece of property. The Puritans wanted it. All the Puritan groups. Even though they had formed the United Colonies, a formidable power block, they were still acting independently in their quest for land and treasure. Massachusetts Bay had the resources and manpower, not to mention the savvy, to frame the argument and control the narrative. Only one man really stood in their way. That man was Samuel Gorton. His one-man crusade to stand up to the magistrates of Massachusetts Bay opened the door to liberty for many people. He accomplished what many strong men and women could not: he beat the Magistrates of Massachusetts Bay at their own game. Check it out! Audio Production by Podsworth Media.

The past couple of years has been a transition period for everyone. But, I think we all realized how important it is to prioritize our health. In this episode, we talk about our lifestyle adjustments to be as healthy as possible physically, mentally and in terms of our relationship with one another. #BehindRelationshipGoals Additionally, we want to send a huge shout out to Puritan's Pride for sending their amazing immunity pack which includes, Vitamin C, Zinc Gluconate, and Vitamin D3 To know more about them, check out the social media pages: Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/puritansprideph/ Lazada - https://bit.ly/2XzRZK6 --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/behindrelationshipgoals/support

When English colonizers landed in New England in 1630, they constructed a godly commonwealth according to precepts gleaned from Scripture. For these 'Puritan' Christians, religion both provided the center and defined the margins of existence. While some Puritans were called to exercise power as magistrates and ministers, and many more as husbands and fathers, women were universally called to subject themselves to the authority of others. Their God was a God of order, and out of their religious convictions and experiences Puritan leaders found a divine mandate for a firm, clear hierarchy. Yet not all lives were overwhelmed; other religious voices made themselves heard, and inspired voices that defied that hierarchy. Gifted with an extraordinary mind, an intense spiritual passion, and an awesome charisma, Anne Hutchinson arrived in Massachusetts in 1634 and established herself as a leader of women. She held private religious meetings in her home and later began to deliver her own sermons. She inspired a large number of disciples who challenged the colony's political, social, and ideological foundations, and scarcely three years after her arrival, Hutchinson was recognized as the primary disrupter of consensus and order--she was then banished as a heretic. Anne Hutchinson, deeply centered in her spirituality, heard in the word of God an imperative to ignore and move beyond the socially prescribed boundaries placed around women. The Passion of Anne Hutchinson: An Extraordinary Woman, the Puritan Patriarchs, and the World They Made and Lost (Oxford UP, 2021) examines issues of gender, patriarchal order, and empowerment in Puritan society through the story of a woman who sought to preach, inspire, and disrupt. Hannah Smith is a PhD Candidate in History at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. She can be reached at smit9201@umn.edu. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

When English colonizers landed in New England in 1630, they constructed a godly commonwealth according to precepts gleaned from Scripture. For these 'Puritan' Christians, religion both provided the center and defined the margins of existence. While some Puritans were called to exercise power as magistrates and ministers, and many more as husbands and fathers, women were universally called to subject themselves to the authority of others. Their God was a God of order, and out of their religious convictions and experiences Puritan leaders found a divine mandate for a firm, clear hierarchy. Yet not all lives were overwhelmed; other religious voices made themselves heard, and inspired voices that defied that hierarchy. Gifted with an extraordinary mind, an intense spiritual passion, and an awesome charisma, Anne Hutchinson arrived in Massachusetts in 1634 and established herself as a leader of women. She held private religious meetings in her home and later began to deliver her own sermons. She inspired a large number of disciples who challenged the colony's political, social, and ideological foundations, and scarcely three years after her arrival, Hutchinson was recognized as the primary disrupter of consensus and order--she was then banished as a heretic. Anne Hutchinson, deeply centered in her spirituality, heard in the word of God an imperative to ignore and move beyond the socially prescribed boundaries placed around women. The Passion of Anne Hutchinson: An Extraordinary Woman, the Puritan Patriarchs, and the World They Made and Lost (Oxford UP, 2021) examines issues of gender, patriarchal order, and empowerment in Puritan society through the story of a woman who sought to preach, inspire, and disrupt. Hannah Smith is a PhD Candidate in History at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. She can be reached at smit9201@umn.edu. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

When English colonizers landed in New England in 1630, they constructed a godly commonwealth according to precepts gleaned from Scripture. For these 'Puritan' Christians, religion both provided the center and defined the margins of existence. While some Puritans were called to exercise power as magistrates and ministers, and many more as husbands and fathers, women were universally called to subject themselves to the authority of others. Their God was a God of order, and out of their religious convictions and experiences Puritan leaders found a divine mandate for a firm, clear hierarchy. Yet not all lives were overwhelmed; other religious voices made themselves heard, and inspired voices that defied that hierarchy. Gifted with an extraordinary mind, an intense spiritual passion, and an awesome charisma, Anne Hutchinson arrived in Massachusetts in 1634 and established herself as a leader of women. She held private religious meetings in her home and later began to deliver her own sermons. She inspired a large number of disciples who challenged the colony's political, social, and ideological foundations, and scarcely three years after her arrival, Hutchinson was recognized as the primary disrupter of consensus and order--she was then banished as a heretic. Anne Hutchinson, deeply centered in her spirituality, heard in the word of God an imperative to ignore and move beyond the socially prescribed boundaries placed around women. The Passion of Anne Hutchinson: An Extraordinary Woman, the Puritan Patriarchs, and the World They Made and Lost (Oxford UP, 2021) examines issues of gender, patriarchal order, and empowerment in Puritan society through the story of a woman who sought to preach, inspire, and disrupt. Hannah Smith is a PhD Candidate in History at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. She can be reached at smit9201@umn.edu. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

When English colonizers landed in New England in 1630, they constructed a godly commonwealth according to precepts gleaned from Scripture. For these 'Puritan' Christians, religion both provided the center and defined the margins of existence. While some Puritans were called to exercise power as magistrates and ministers, and many more as husbands and fathers, women were universally called to subject themselves to the authority of others. Their God was a God of order, and out of their religious convictions and experiences Puritan leaders found a divine mandate for a firm, clear hierarchy. Yet not all lives were overwhelmed; other religious voices made themselves heard, and inspired voices that defied that hierarchy. Gifted with an extraordinary mind, an intense spiritual passion, and an awesome charisma, Anne Hutchinson arrived in Massachusetts in 1634 and established herself as a leader of women. She held private religious meetings in her home and later began to deliver her own sermons. She inspired a large number of disciples who challenged the colony's political, social, and ideological foundations, and scarcely three years after her arrival, Hutchinson was recognized as the primary disrupter of consensus and order--she was then banished as a heretic. Anne Hutchinson, deeply centered in her spirituality, heard in the word of God an imperative to ignore and move beyond the socially prescribed boundaries placed around women. The Passion of Anne Hutchinson: An Extraordinary Woman, the Puritan Patriarchs, and the World They Made and Lost (Oxford UP, 2021) examines issues of gender, patriarchal order, and empowerment in Puritan society through the story of a woman who sought to preach, inspire, and disrupt. Hannah Smith is a PhD Candidate in History at the University of Minnesota-Twin Cities. She can be reached at smit9201@umn.edu. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/christian-studies

George Whitefield, The New Lights, & First Baptist Church in Boston 1741 The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

This Episode is a discussion of the Primordial album 'Redemption at the Puritan's Hand' is ten years old! Primordial is 30 and this is a chat about the album, how it was made, lyrics, aesthetics, song writing and recording processes! Available as a video cast over on My Youtube channel, search Alan AverillSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/agitators-anonymous-the-alan-averill-podcast. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

As the Brethren head to Providence Island to learn what became of their Puritan allies, the crew of the Caliban take a moment's rest to recuperate and prepare for their greatest adventure yet. With the Spanish more alert than ever and prices on their heads, it'll take skillful maneuvering to avoid them--and they aren't the only ships looking for the crew either...

American Baptist Magazine for the year 1817 A look at the contents of a 204 year old magazine during times of revival, missionary efforts, and God fearing letters, articles, and biographies. The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

To support this ministry financially, visit: https://www.oneplace.com/donate/603/29 Romans 8:16 -When does the believer receive the Holy Spirit? Is it at the moment of adoption into the body of Christ through faith or is it sometime later? Often after accepting the gift of salvation, one may not feel the flooding nature of spiritual baptism. Others may feel the Spirit immediately. In this sermon on Romans 8:16 titled Faith and Experience, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones comments on this phenomenon in this message of assurance and unity. The sermon also surveys other examples in the New Testament where the Spirit is received. He provides context into the sealing of the Spirit, as well as context into the translation of the word. He answers the question: Who baptizes with the Spirit? Dr. Lloyd-Jones elaborates on what rights a believer has, both before and after receiving the Spirit. He delves into the wide scope of Puritan writers, as well as other Christian perspectives, concerning this theological argument in order to further expand this topic and solidify its interpretation. Listen as the power of the Spirit is unraveled and opened to the believer in its ability to unify the church body of Christ across its many differences to do His good work in theworld.

In this episode of Bridge Radio, we are joined by an Honorably Retired minister in the Presbyterian Church, Dr. Donald McKim.

We've finally come to our long promised two-parter on one of Carrie's pet interests, the Salem Witch Trials! In 1692 Salem, Massachusetts, tensions were already high. The Puritan colonists were struggling through the "Little Ice Age" devastating their crops, paranoid about being attacked by neighboring Native American tribes, and quarreling with their minister and each other about who the most godly of the bunch really was. The atmosphere was rife for backstabbing and tragedy, and that tragedy was about to hit in a horrific way. It began with whispers, and would end with screams. Was the root of the Salem Witch Trials the hysteria of a group of young girls? Was everyone completely zonked out from ergot poisoning? Or had Satan himself really infiltrated this infighting colonial town? Join us, as we explore the whole unbelievable story of the Salem Witch Trials in the next two episodes. Thanks to the spooktacular THINGS TO DO IN SALEM.COM for sponsoring this episode - find them at www.thingstodoinsalem.com! ________________________________________ Connect with us on social media: Facebook: www.facebook.com/aintitscary Twitter: @aintitscary Instagram: @aintitscary Patreon: www.patreon.com/aintitscary ___________________________________________ Thank you to our sponsors: BetterHelp - Special offer for Ain't it Scary? listeners: Get 10% off your first month at www.betterhelp.com/aintitscary Audible - Get a FREE audiobook and 30-Day Free Trial at www.audibletrial.com/aintitscary BarkBox - Enjoy a FREE month of BarkBox on us when you sign up for a 6 or 12-month BarkBox subscription! Visit www.barkbox.com/aintitscary for more details Hunt a Killer - Receive 20% off your first Hunt a Killer subscription box at www.huntakiller.com with the code SCARYSQUAD at checkout! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/aintitscary/support

The Baptists and the Kentucky Revival of 1800. The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

In today's episode, we are exploring the character of Malvolio by diving into the history of the Puritan Movement in Early Modern England. Because Malvolio is described throughout the play as a Puritan, we will examine what a contemporary understanding of Puritanism would have added to the play (and especially that letter scene) for Shakespeare's audiences.  Shakespeare Anyone? is created and produced by Korey Leigh Smith and Elyse Sharp. Music is "Neverending Minute" by Sounds Like Sander. Follow us on Instagram at @shakespeareanyonepod for updates or visit our website at shakespeareanyone.com   Works referenced: Simmons, J. L. “A Source for Shakespeare's Malvolio: The Elizabethan Controversy with the Puritans.” Huntington Library Quarterly, vol. 36, no. 3, University of California Press, 1973, pp. 181–201, https://doi.org/10.2307/3816599. Accessed 3 Sept. 2021 Thompson, James Westfall. “Shakespeare and Puritanism.” The North American Review, vol. 212, no. 777, 1920, pp. 228–237. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/25120573. Accessed 30 Aug. 2021. Winship, Michael P. Hot Protestants: A History of Puritanism in England and America. Yale University Press, 2018. JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvbnm3ss. Accessed 4 Sept. 2021.

Spooky time means Puritan times for this wife. Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/ForcedProximity)

Why might I want to pursue purity and become a mini-Puritan? Just so I can stop at the NO?  Nope! One shoots bullets of purity so that one gets to the YES; that is so that you SEE GOD.We are majoring on the PRACTICAL today with 3 bullets:1 Cor 10:13 Am I the only one? Where is God? Is this too much temptation for me? Is this beyond my ability? How can I get out of this?  This passage answers all of those questions.Ps 119:9,11 Should I memorize this passage? Am I a young man, old man, young girl, or old woman? Is this enough of a fire to fight a fire with?the PEOPLE of God.  Can I ask the real question of anybody in my world: "How's your purity doing?" and expect a real answer?  If not, then you are not really in the people of God. You can do better.We SHOOT THESE BULLETS of purity to get to the good stuff:  SEEING GOD.  May you get started today. Subscribe with CastBox, Pandora, Pocket Casts, Spotify, Apple, or Google Podcasts.  There is a 7 minute daily podcast available, every single day, to shoot a bullet of purity. To see the face of God.

Testimonies of Conversions From Bible Tracts from the American Tract Society in the 1820s. The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

This week, special guest Caitlin Parrish tells us the story of "Half-Hanged" Mary Webster. Accused of witchcraft more than once in her lifetime, she does not escape the noose - but you'll have to listen to find out the rest! Her story predates the Salem witch trials by several decades and she is an ancestor of Margaret Atwood's, inspiring her poem "Half-Hanged Mary" and one of the dedicatee's of The Handmaid's Tale. — A Broad is a woman who lives by her own rules. Broads You Should Know is the podcast about the Broads who helped shape our world! 3 Ways you can help support the podcast: Write a review on iTunes Share your favorite episode on social media / tell a friend about the show! Send us an email with a broad suggestion, question, or comment at BroadsYouShouldKnow@gmail.com — Broads You Should Know is hosted by Sara Gorsky. IG: @SaraGorsky Web master / site design: www.BroadsYouShouldKnow.com — Broads You Should Know is produced by Sara Gorsky & edited by Chloe Skye

Join Drs. Michael Haykin and Mike Pohlman as they discuss the remarkable Puritan wife and mother, Brilliana Harley.

A new MP3 sermon from Heritage Reformed Congregation is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: Puritan Preaching Subtitle: 2021-2022 Adult Class Speaker: Dr. Joel Beeke Broadcaster: Heritage Reformed Congregation Event: Sunday - AM Date: 10/3/2021 Length: 37 min.

  “This is Queens of the Mines, where we discuss untold stories from the twisted roots of California. Today, we'll be talking about Indian Boarding Schools in the US and California. We are in a time where historians and the public are no longer dismissing the “conflict history” that has been minimized or blotted out. We now have the opportunity to incorporate the racial and patriarchal experience in the presentation of American reality. The preceding episode may feature foul language and or adult content including violence which may be disturbing some listeners, or secondhand listeners. So, discretion is advised.   Over 1,300 bodies of First Nations students were found at former Canada's residential schools this year. In response, Canada has declared September 30 2021, as the first National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Since 2013, this day has been commemorated as Orange Shirt Day.  Like most of our topics on the podcast, the truth about our Indian boarding school has been written out of the US history books. The system  has long been condemned by Native Americans as a form of cultural genocide. By 1926, nearly 83% of Indian school-age children were attending boarding schools. There once were over 350 government-funded Indian Boarding schools across the US where native children were forcibly abducted by government agents, sent to schools hundreds of miles away, and beaten, starved, or otherwise abused when they spoke their native languages. Nothing short of the previous Mission System, truly.    This Episode is also brought to you by the Law Offices of CHARLES B SMITH. Are you facing criminal charges in California? The most important thing you can do is obtain legal counsel from an aggressive Criminal Defense Lawyer lawyer you can trust. The Law Office of Charles B. Smith has the knowledge and experience to assess your situation and help you build a strong defense against your charges. The Law Offices of CHARLES B SMITH do not just defend cases, they represent people. So visit their website cbsattorney.com, we know even in the gold rush no one liked attorneys, but Charles you will love.   Between 1869 and the 1960s, hundreds of thousands of Native American children were voluntarily or forcibly removed from their homes, families,  communities and placed in boarding schools. where they were punished for speaking their native language, banned from acting in any way that might be seen to represent traditional or cultural practices, stripped of traditional clothing, hair and personal belongings and behaviors reflective of their native culture. The United States government tied Native Americans' naturalization to the eradication of Native American cultural identity and complete assimilation into the “white culture.” Congress passed an act in 1887 that established “every Indian born within the territorial limits of the United States who has voluntarily taken up… his residence separate and apart from any tribe of Indians…[and] adopted the habits of civilized life…” may secure a United States citizenship. Often these residential schools were run by different faith groups including Methodists, Latter-day Saints (LDS) and Catholics. Like the Missions, often crowded conditions,students weakened by overwork and lack of public sanitation put students at risk for infectious diseases such as tuberculosis, measles and trachoma. None of these diseases were yet treatable by antibiotics or controlled by vaccines, and epidemics swept schools as they did cities. Often students were prevented from communicating with their families, and parents were not notified when their children fell ill; the schools also failed sometimes to notify them when a child died. "Many of the Indian deaths during the great influenza pandemic of 1918–19, which hit the Native American population hard, took place in boarding schools. "The 1928 Meriam Report noted that death rates for Native American students were six and a half times higher than for other ethnic groups.  They suffered physical, sexual, cultural and spiritual abuse and neglect, and experienced treatment that in many cases constituted torture for speaking their Native languages. Many children never returned home and their fates have yet to be accounted for by the U.S. government. Though we don't know how many children were taken in total, by 1900 there were 20,000 children in Indian boarding schools, and by 1925 that number had more than tripled. Because of Bureau of Indian Affairs policies, students did not return home for several years. Those who died were often buried in the school cemetery. Many survivors of these residential schools say they suffered physical, psychological and sexual abuse that sometimes resulted in the death of other children, and others died while trying to escape these schools. This episode was brought to you by our main Sponsor Columbia Mercantile 1855, It looks like a living museum, but it is a real grocery store with gold standard products for your modern life from quality international and local products that replicate diverse provisions of when Columbia was California's second largest city after San Francisco. I recently bought rice shampoo and conditioner bars there that have nearly changed how I feel about my hair, and I love the selection of hard kombucha, my favorite. The Columbia Mercantile 1855 is located in Columbia State Historic Park at 11245 Jackson Street and is a great place to keep our local economy moving. At a time like this, it is so important to shop local, and The Columbia Mercantile 1855 is friendly, welcoming, fairly priced and accepts EBT. Open Daily! Also sponsoring this episode is Sonora Florist, who has been providing our community with beautiful flower arrangements since the early 1950s. The designers at Sonora Florists are skilled at creating unique floral designs and you can visit sonoraflorist.com, or search Sonora Florist on Facebook, Pinterest, and Instagram to see what I am talking about. There is a special website for wedding florals at sincerelysonoraflorist.com Thank you Sonora Florist. And if you have not checked out the mural on the side of the shop, on the corner of Washington and Bradford in downtown Sonora, in honor of the local Chinese history, do so! It was a fight to get it up, and it was worth it! Let's talk about the United States Army general Richard H. Pratt. In 1875, Pratt pulled seventy-two American Indian prisoners from the Red River War to form the first Indian boarding school in Florida. The students were taught English, European culture, vocational skills, and required to dress in European clothing. Students were not allowed to speak their native language once their English was sufficient. Many students lost the ability to speak in their native language or were unable to communicate effectively with their relatives and other tribal members due to the students' vocabulary deficiency. This served to distance the children from their culture and traditions and further undermined the authority figures at home and also reinforced the American Indian belief that the boarding schools were aimed at destroying their families and by extension their tribes. Another important part of this education system was the shedding of the Native American religions to be replaced by conversion to Christianity. Sounds familiar right? Pratt said, "A great general has said that the only good Indian is a dead one, and that high sanction of his destruction has been an enormous factor in promoting Indian massacres. In a sense, I agree with the sentiment, but only in this: that all the Indian there is in the race should be dead. Kill the Indian in him, and save the man." In 1879 Pratt opened the first Indian boarding school called the Carlisle Industrial Training School located in  Carlisle, Pennsylvania. From 1879 to 1918, it housed Native students from tribes across America, with the express purpose of assimilating them into American culture. "It was born out of his experience Puritan beliefs and as the jailer of a group of Kiowa, Comanche, and Arapaho prisoners of war who were arrested by the United States and sentenced to a three-year imprisonment, and while working with these 12 prisoners, Pratt developed his philosophy in Indian education." He was able to get those 12 prisoners to help him recruit children from multiple tribes for the Carlisle Indian School, which became the first class at Carlisle. Pratt designed the program to have a regimented structure. When the students arrived at Carlisle, their hair was cut, they were put in uniforms and they were organized into regiments and units and battalions. He implemented a ranking system in which the more senior students would mete out punishment to their subordinates if they disobeyed orders. They followed strict military schedules with marching drills and whistle or bell signals and emphasizing the importance of work were critical to the boarding schools success of turning the Native American children from their heritage to the “white way. The students received a vocational education with the goal of obtaining a lower income job, depending on the child's gender. For the males, carpentering, wagon making, harness-making, tailoring, shoemaking, tinning, painting, printing, baking, and farming. The female Indian students, however, learned “sewing, laundry and housework. Over four decades, roughly 8,000 students attended the school, and nearly 200 were buried here. At times, parents of students at Carlisle would receive notice of their child's passing only after they had been buried. The cause was often attributed to disease, although abuse was often rampant at these schools. Now, the number of graves at Carlisle is incrementally dropping, since efforts began several years ago to return the remains of students to their tribes and families. In June, 10 bodies of kids who attended the Pennsylvania school were returned home to their families.  From 1897, the Indian Industrial Training School was in operation in Perris, California until it was closed in 1904 due to problems with the school's water source. The school was relocated to Riverside, California under the name Sherman Institute and is still in operation today as an off-reservation boarding high school for Native Americans. When the school was accredited by the Western Association of Schools and Colleges in 1971, it became known as Sherman Indian High School. Like a slap in the face, Mission Revival Style architecture was used when the school was built. To meet earthquake standards, most of the original school buildings were demolished during the 1970s, and new structures were built in their place. The California Native Tribes were required to pay for the demolition and for the new buildings. Children from the Klamath, Miwok, Maidu and Concow tribes attended the Fort Bidwell School in Fort Bidwell, California from 1898 to 1930. The Greenville Indian Industrial School was opened near the town of Greenville in Plumas County, California The boarding school enrolled Indian students aged five to sixteen. The school had a history of runaway female students according to multiple newspaper articles. There was also the St. Boniface Indian School in Banning, California built for the purpose of educating the children of the 3000 Mission children. The construction of the buildings was done by the native students. Approximately 21 children died while attending St. Boniface, most of them due to tuberculosis. There have been reports from students who used to attend the school, that the cemetery was at one time bigger than it is now and more children are buried here than we are aware. One researcher, Preston McBride, believes the number of graves discovered could be as many as 40,000 here in the US. In order to understand the development of the present-day Native American tribes and their sovereignty relationship to the United States' federal government; people need to hear a comprehensive history through the use of surviving documents and oral histories from those involved in Indian boarding schools. You can find books on the topic of Indian boarding schools at most bookstores. The topics covered include, but are not limited to: personal accounts of students, resistance amongst the student body, boarding schools' policies, and the treatment and care provided to the boarding school students. Individual case studies are one topic of interest that may be pursued. Also, one could look into the outing system of the Indian boarding schools within the United States and those in Canada.  Alright, love you all, be safe, get vaccinated, wear a mask, stay positive and act kind. Thank you for taking the time to listen today, subscribe to the show so we can meet again weekly, on Queens of the Mines.  Show notes: https://scholarworks.lib.csusb.edu/history-in-the-making Part of the Indigenous Studies Commons, and the United States History Commons Recommended Citation Ward, Erica Maien (2011)   https://www.cbc.ca/books/48-books-by-indigenous-writers-to-read-to-understand-residential-schools-1.6056204   https://boardingschoolhealing.org/education/us-indian-boarding-school-history/   https://scholarworks.lib.csusb.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2100&context=etd   https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2021/08/28/1031398120/native-boarding-schools-repatriation-remains-carlisle https://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2021/09/02/how-utah-and-indian-residential-schools-connected-panguitch/5591605001/   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Indian_High_School  

Letters written by John Owen The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support

William Frederick Poole, North American Review 1869, The Vindication of Cotton Mather From the Charge That He Was Involved In The Salem Witch Trials of 1692. The Narrated Puritan features weekly readings from Puritan history read by Tom Sullivan. You can find more readings by Mr. Sullivan at PuritanAudioBooks.com Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary is a Confessional Reformed Baptist Seminary Providing affordable online theological education to help the Church in its calling to train faithful men. To learn more about CBTS, visit https://CBTSeminary.org. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cbtseminary/support