Podcast appearances and mentions of chris as

1 00:00:03.570 --> 00:00:04.259 Paul Casey: Here we go. 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:24.840 Paul Casey: it's a great day to grow forward, and thank you for joining me for today's episode with Chris Porter Chris is partner at Porter Kinney and a fun fact about him is he says he's a little germ of phobic or at least people think he is Chris you gotta go get a color on that one. 3 00:00:25.620 --> 00:00:40.440 Chris: Well it's true it's just been a joke a long standing joke going back decades about my German phobia one time for a birthday present somebody gave me some jello with a hand sanitizer inside the jello just to make sure the agenda was clean. 4 00:00:41.220 --> 00:00:45.330 Chris: The whole bottle of hand sanitizer was kind of molded within the jello and that was my. 5 00:00:46.830 --> 00:00:52.530 Paul Casey: love it love it well, we will dive in after checking in with our tri city influencers sponsor. 6 00:00:53.460 --> 00:01:00.810 Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the tri cities well welcome Chris I was privileged to meet you. 7 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:09.480 Paul Casey: Man it feels like eight or 10 years ago now, when I visited a you're being I grew up your business networking international group I was a sub and. 8 00:01:09.990 --> 00:01:26.970 Paul Casey: ended up joining be and I certainly after that I think it was 2015 I joined the and I and it's been a great thing ever since and you were able to speak at one of my edge events when we used to do those when we combine pizza and professional development that was fun. 9 00:01:27.870 --> 00:01:28.380 Chris: that's right. 10 00:01:29.100 --> 00:01:43.770 Paul Casey: And you spoke for mid Columbia score I think once on the same topic and I just love, how you want to help other businesses out of wide rookie mistakes as you would call them and really help them thrive, as they as they launch and in those first years of development. 11 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:45.420 Absolutely. 12 00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:57.060 Paul Casey: Well, how far Tracy and implication to know you better tell us about what your organization does what you spend 80% of your day doing. 13 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:08.430 Chris: yeah so porter Kenny we're a CPA firm and accounting firm, so we provide tax preparation services and other accounting services for individuals and businesses. 14 00:02:09.630 --> 00:02:25.170 Chris: So business could come to us for tax advice for the preparation of their annual tax return and then also if they wanted us to run their payroll for them, keep their books up to date, help them make good business decisions, you know we're here to support small businesses in the tri cities. 15 00:02:25.950 --> 00:02:32.190 Paul Casey: Great stuff and So what do you end up spending most of your day as a partner, doing same thing or other stuff. 16 00:02:32.970 --> 00:02:38.790 Chris: yeah i'm about split 5050 right now, half the time i'll work on client work, making sure. 17 00:02:39.210 --> 00:02:45.960 Chris: You know i'm filing my clients tax returns on time, helping them make strategic business moves avoid taxes were legally possible. 18 00:02:46.410 --> 00:03:02.520 Chris: And then the other half of my day is spent on management training employees on sales on trying to improve the business, you know, sometimes with leadership we talked about working in the business versus working on the business and i'm about split 5050 between those two right now. 19 00:03:03.210 --> 00:03:11.220 Paul Casey: Nice and, as we were talking before we started recording you're in a major growth spurt in just the last couple of years right. 20 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:18.150 Chris: yeah about two years ago, we have seven full time staff at porter kinney and now we have 24 so. 21 00:03:18.210 --> 00:03:20.430 Chris: Definitely had some growth over the last couple years. 22 00:03:20.610 --> 00:03:22.440 Paul Casey: amazing congratulations. 23 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:23.310 Chris: Thank you. 24 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:25.590 Paul Casey: Why do you love to do what to do. 25 00:03:26.970 --> 00:03:34.350 Chris: You know I just have always enjoyed business It just seems like something that's really fun it's almost like you're playing a strategy game. 26 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:46.320 Chris: And if you make the right moves you're going to win, and if you don't think clearly enough or you make a mistake you're going to lose and it's just kind of this it's kind of a big game big game of chess. 27 00:03:47.190 --> 00:03:53.430 Chris: Ever since I was probably 10 or 11 i've wanted to start a business in fact i'll tell you Paul, the first business I ever started. 28 00:03:54.180 --> 00:04:06.090 Chris: A friend of mine His name was john and my name is Chris so we got together and we said we're going to combine our two names and we're going to start a lawn mowing business, so instead of Chris and john we call it crowd. 29 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:09.000 Chris: It was cron lawn. 30 00:04:09.540 --> 00:04:10.740 Chris: Which arrives. 31 00:04:14.010 --> 00:04:14.580 Chris: So. 32 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:23.280 Chris: That was me as a 10 or 11 year old try to be entrepreneurial but i've had a million business ideas, since then and thankfully at least one of them has worked. 33 00:04:24.390 --> 00:04:31.350 Paul Casey: How did you land on accounting and tax prep from all those business ideas, how did you sort through land on that one. 34 00:04:32.010 --> 00:04:45.870 Chris: You know it's what I did when I was at byu That was what my degree was in was accounting, so it was kind of the most natural fit, of course, to start an accounting firm when you have a background in accounting when you have work experience and accounting and a degree in accounting. 35 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:51.600 Chris: So that's how I settled on that, but yeah I have debated about doing other businesses but. 36 00:04:52.740 --> 00:05:06.360 Chris: I know a lot of tri cities business owners that have their foot in you know many different businesses, they maybe have a portfolio of five to 10 different businesses that hasn't worked for my own personality, I like to be laser focused on just one one business. 37 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:20.820 Paul Casey: Absolutely so who do you surround yourself with on your team, what makes a great team Member for you to hang around and also who do you who do you tend to associate with in the Community outside of porter kinney. 38 00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:29.940 Chris: Well, within porter Kenny, we have tried to hire the best person for each position and it's interesting as you try to grow a business. 39 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:42.300 Chris: there's the lowest hanging fruit employees and that's going to be, you know your brother or your sister or your friend or your neighbor just kind of the people that are around around you that you know that maybe you're looking for a job. 40 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:53.820 Chris: You could always hire one of them, but but really it is very important if you've read the book good to great you know, Jim Collins really emphasizes putting the right people on the right seat on the bus. 41 00:05:54.450 --> 00:06:06.150 Chris: And spending a lot of time hiring I read a book recently by Dave ramsey who recommends the same thing Dave ramsey says he does like two months of interviews before he hires anyone yeah. 42 00:06:06.690 --> 00:06:18.510 Chris: So we have been very careful in the hiring process to hire the right person for each position, not to hire the easiest person or the lowest hanging fruit or the person that we know or the person we attend, you know church with. 43 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:29.700 Chris: When we hire someone it's it's probably at least 30 hours of my time before we make that higher and so that I think we just have an outstanding team that doesn't need to be micromanaged. 44 00:06:30.270 --> 00:06:37.200 Paul Casey: yeah the measure twice cut once principal at a boss through always said that in hiring you got to do that so way to go. 45 00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:38.760 Chris: Absolutely yeah. 46 00:06:39.690 --> 00:06:43.110 Paul Casey: For outside the organization one who helps you be successful. 47 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:55.320 Chris: yeah so that's a great question outside the organization, you know, there are a few of business leaders in the Community, that I really respect and i've intentionally take them to lunch and pick their brain and. 48 00:06:55.950 --> 00:07:00.060 Chris: You know it's always good to maintain a spirit of humility about what we do. 49 00:07:00.510 --> 00:07:09.090 Chris: I will be the first to admit that there are you know hundreds of business owners in this area that that do a much better job than I do, and I want to learn from them, I want to. 50 00:07:09.510 --> 00:07:21.720 Chris: have them be my mentor and you know they're further ahead than I am in their business they've been doing it longer than I have and it's good for me to sit down with them over lunch ask him questions learn things from them. 51 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:36.870 Paul Casey: yeah in fact that's on my list there's no that the reason for this podcast was I did what you did, which is take a leader to lunch, and then I thought, what if everybody else could listen in on that conversation, which is how we've gotten to the truth of the input their podcasts, though. 52 00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:40.770 Paul Casey: yeah i'm taking me to lunch, right now, but maybe i'll have to send you a grub hub or some. 53 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:41.520 instead. 54 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:58.380 Chris: Well i'll tell you Paul and this ties in several years ago, I took a very successful tri cities business owner out to lunch to anthony's and I sat down with them, and he had grown a business from from one person from just him to over 500 employees. 55 00:07:58.890 --> 00:08:00.660 Chris: As well as the 100% owner. 56 00:08:01.200 --> 00:08:07.320 Chris: And then he sold the business for a very large sum which enabled him to you know be financially secure for the rest of his life. 57 00:08:08.010 --> 00:08:19.230 Chris: And I asked him, you know what What was your secret and one of the things that he told me really has stayed with me, and that is, he said, Chris I grew my business one strategic higher at a time. 58 00:08:19.320 --> 00:08:26.040 Chris: um and I thought that was a great focus, because so many of us think about growing our business one customer at a time. 59 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:35.610 Chris: Well that's also true there's kind of two sides of the coin right, we have to add customers, we have to have clients, we have to you know, keep them satisfied and offer a high level of service to them. 60 00:08:36.060 --> 00:08:47.370 Chris: But the other side of the coin is getting the right people in the business like I mentioned earlier, one strategic hire at a time that's how he went from one employee to 600 employees, to a large sale. 61 00:08:47.880 --> 00:09:03.480 Paul Casey: That is so good, I hear also that the only way you're going to really bust out and grow is, you have to hire leaders, not just followers but leaders that's going to help you to multiply hiring followers just as addition so yeah great stuff one strategic fire at a time. 62 00:09:03.780 --> 00:09:18.120 Chris: yeah and Paul you hit the nail on the head, you also do not want to be intimidated it's okay to hire someone who's smarter than you it's okay to hire someone that's more educated than you are you don't have to be intimidated by that get the best people on your team and grow together. 63 00:09:18.870 --> 00:09:30.060 Paul Casey: Great stuff and speaking of growth leaders have growth mindset So how do you keep evolving as a leader what's in your own personal and professional development plan. 64 00:09:31.710 --> 00:09:48.480 Chris: What are the things i've done, I really love listening to books on my phone I use audible and I like to listen to business books yeah, but I have long time for a long time i've had the philosophy that you shouldn't consume information faster than you're able to apply that information. 65 00:09:48.570 --> 00:09:51.510 Paul Casey: or flow good let's say that again say that again. 66 00:09:51.870 --> 00:09:52.170 well. 67 00:09:53.670 --> 00:09:58.290 Chris: You should not consume information faster than you're able to apply that information. 68 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:06.660 Chris: So, in other words, I hear some people that say hey I listened to one book a week on audible and I think well, are you really able to. 69 00:10:07.380 --> 00:10:13.860 Chris: You know, apply those principles that are being taught in that business book that quickly, maybe some people are I certainly am not. 70 00:10:14.760 --> 00:10:20.670 Chris: So i'll go through a book on audible very slowly, as I drive maybe one book every three months. 71 00:10:21.450 --> 00:10:30.000 Chris: And when I get to my location i'll pull up my phone and i'll take notes on a Google sheet as to what I learned during that drive from that business book. 72 00:10:30.780 --> 00:10:43.140 Chris: And then, when i'm done i'll kind of go through all my notes on board those things that I thought were most applicable and i'll try to apply them in my business and I try not to move to the second book until i've made some changes, based on that the first book that I read. 73 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:53.310 Paul Casey: that's really going deep on a book I do like that I read about 40 a year and, like you said assimilating that so I I to pull over and. 74 00:10:54.270 --> 00:11:01.320 Paul Casey: Then write down the takeaways from the books as I go and then I file them, maybe i'm not assimilating them complete like you're. 75 00:11:01.590 --> 00:11:11.280 Paul Casey: you're talking about, but I do file them in categories for leadership development so that I can pass them on to clients and in seminars, in the future so totally concur with you there. 76 00:11:11.790 --> 00:11:16.830 Paul Casey: And you know i'm probably going to ask you this, so what are a couple of books that everybody's got to read if they're a. 77 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:26.460 Paul Casey: Business owner or a leader of other people, they want to develop others or develop themselves what are some of those that pop out maybe you've read just the last few years. 78 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:36.420 Chris: yeah i'll recommend three as kind of a must read and and if there's listeners out there that are thinking about starting a business but haven't read these three books read these three books. 79 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:44.280 Chris: Seven habits of highly effective people by Stephen R covey obviously this you know timeless written what 40 years ago and still relevant today. 80 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:50.190 Chris: Second, one would be good to great by Jim Collins like I just mentioned, also timeless. 81 00:11:51.360 --> 00:12:07.830 Chris: Book so vital to read if you're trying to grow your business, as the title implies from good to great and then the third one would be the E myth revisited by Michael gerber which is really kind of the small business Bible, how to grow a business from one person to 10 people to 50 people. 82 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:13.290 Paul Casey: yeah and I think he was the one that coined that in the biz working in the business or on the business right. 83 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:14.700 Chris: that's right yeah. 84 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:31.710 Paul Casey: Great great book recommends thanks Chris for that to avoid burnout and negativity and even in the land of Kobe the last couple years here how have you fed your mental your emotional health and wellness on a regular basis. 85 00:12:33.270 --> 00:12:42.540 Chris: yeah that's a great question you know some business owners talk about you know you got to work 100 hour plus weeks in order to be successful, I do not buy into that philosophy and. 86 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:52.140 Chris: Most of the effective successful people I know don't work 100 plus hours they do work, maybe 50 to 60 hours a week, I mean they're not slackers that's for sure. 87 00:12:52.770 --> 00:13:02.490 Chris: But you definitely want to take some time some personal time completely on your own I like to do some you know i'd call it spiritual time each day kind of Bible study time each day. 88 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:11.250 Chris: That I take on my own I definitely spend time with my wife and kids each day intentionally during certain times of the day, so yeah don't neglect yourself. 89 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:24.420 Paul Casey: yeah self care huge love, I put in, so your spiritual practice there at the beginning of the day, so setting the tone for the day what successful people do in the morning is is huge. 90 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:35.220 Paul Casey: And then also making sure i'm sure core values family is one of your top ones as well, and not leaving them the leftovers, but prioritizing them somewhere in your day love that. 91 00:13:35.580 --> 00:13:43.770 Paul Casey: Absolutely, how do you go about getting things done, I love to know the organizational system of Chris porter, how do you organize yourself. 92 00:13:44.430 --> 00:13:53.490 Chris: Well i'll tell you Paul I went to one of your presentations several years ago, where you said that we should make a to do list for the next day. 93 00:13:53.820 --> 00:14:03.480 Chris: At the end of the day, so at the end of today i'm going to make a to do list for tomorrow, while those priorities are still fresh in your mind that was a very helpful suggestion and i've done that. 94 00:14:04.560 --> 00:14:09.300 Chris: I don't think I do, that every day, I should, but I do, that a lot of days and I appreciate that suggestion. 95 00:14:10.140 --> 00:14:16.380 Chris: So that's one thing i'll throw out the other thing i'll throw it is from Stephen R covey where he talks about that analogy of. 96 00:14:16.710 --> 00:14:23.310 Chris: Having a jar and everyone's heard this before you have a jar you want to put big rocks and it's small rocks and sand and water in it. 97 00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:31.980 Chris: The only way, you can do that is put the big rocks in first and then the sand and then the water, so the sand kind of falls around the big rocks and everything fits. 98 00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:47.700 Chris: And he uses that analogy to basically recommend you take your most important biggest priorities during the week and you schedule them into your calendar at the beginning of the week don't let any anything else interrupt those important items that you have. 99 00:14:49.230 --> 00:14:53.760 Chris: put those in first add the big rocks your calendar first and then other things fall into place. 100 00:14:54.810 --> 00:15:01.770 Paul Casey: That is so good, I was just telling that illustration, is a timeless illustration of the big rocks I was just teaching that and look at a. 101 00:15:01.980 --> 00:15:09.030 Paul Casey: Digital summit recently, because it is so applicable don't let anything crowd out those three top priorities. 102 00:15:09.390 --> 00:15:21.930 Paul Casey: And I don't know why we do this, Chris we seem to like blow ourselves off and our priorities, we would never do that to someone in a coffee shop or a client appointment right, but we do this for ourselves all the time and then we're like procrastinated yet again. 103 00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:24.630 Chris: Absolutely yeah. 104 00:15:25.380 --> 00:15:26.670 Paul Casey: And I think we would say Paul. 105 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:31.890 Chris: Paul you also taught me didn't don't show I say obey your calendar is the phrase that you use. 106 00:15:33.270 --> 00:15:36.960 Paul Casey: is like obey your thirst have a calendar. 107 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:37.740 Chris: that's right. 108 00:15:39.150 --> 00:15:47.910 Paul Casey: Well before we head into our next question about how Chris looks at the bigger picture versus being reactive and leadership let's shout out to our sponsor. 109 00:15:50.220 --> 00:16:02.430 Paul Casey: Well, Chris it's easy to get trapped in simply reacting to crises and leadership and putting out fires, how do you specifically step back and take a look at the bigger picture and get ahead of stuff. 110 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.700 Chris: yeah that's a great question. 111 00:16:06.810 --> 00:16:11.040 Chris: I don't know I don't have a perfect answer for that, but i'll tell you one thing i've done is i've turned off. 112 00:16:12.090 --> 00:16:17.610 Chris: That little notification on the computer where every time you get an email this little thing pings up you got an email from this person. 113 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:26.910 Chris: You know I definitely spend times during the day when when that's completely off when I don't hear any beeps for my cell phone and it beeps from my computer and I could just be focused. 114 00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:37.860 Paul Casey: You also take time as a company with your your core team to do some strategic planning for the year ahead or the quarter ahead anything like that. 115 00:16:38.640 --> 00:16:48.120 Chris: Absolutely my business partner and I we meet weekly Mondays at 1pm and we talked about yet planning and how our goals are coming along. 116 00:16:48.780 --> 00:16:55.680 Chris: And then we have a group of directors of the company so there's two owners and then for directors of our different departments. 117 00:16:56.250 --> 00:17:07.020 Chris: And we are all reading good to great even if we've read it before we're all reading good to great and then we're meeting on July 30 for an all day retreat with you know some refreshments and a meal and. 118 00:17:07.590 --> 00:17:12.030 Chris: And some activities and we're going to discuss the principles and good to great and how we can apply them to our business. 119 00:17:12.780 --> 00:17:19.050 Paul Casey: love the book study idea and now ramsey himself his organization, when you get hired there you get a box of books. 120 00:17:19.350 --> 00:17:29.280 Paul Casey: Because he wants everyone to be speaking the same language and so that that's a cool thing you're all going to do together, even if it's a reread for many of you it's a new read for others. 121 00:17:29.610 --> 00:17:35.730 Paul Casey: love the off site retreat to i'll put in a plug there as well, I love doing those leading those with companies because. 122 00:17:36.060 --> 00:17:51.300 Paul Casey: You know it's a chance to relationship build like you said eat some food together break bread and look ahead without without that constant notification barrage or interruptions throughout your day so way to go for getting your team away to think ahead. 123 00:17:52.830 --> 00:18:06.000 Paul Casey: What key moves did you make, for your Organization has this whole coven thing went through in the last couple of years, how are you responsive to that how did you become strategic in an uncertain time. 124 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:17.550 Chris: You know, maybe, instead of answering how I did that you know I serve a lot of clients and maybe I could just anonymously talk about how some of them navigated through it. 125 00:18:17.850 --> 00:18:26.790 Chris: Right, it was very interesting, you know we serve like I said a lot of businesses in the tri cities and restaurants, I thought were very interesting during coven. 126 00:18:27.570 --> 00:18:34.410 Chris: We have a lot of restaurant clients and some of them just almost instantly you know when march hit when April hit. 127 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:48.540 Chris: They quickly got on uber eats and doordash or had their own delivery drivers and just quickly revamped their business model and some of them did very well, some of them were selling more food than before the pandemic. 128 00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:56.130 Chris: Whereas some of them who just kind of dogmatically stuck to the old business model really struggled so. 129 00:18:56.910 --> 00:19:10.350 Chris: Whether it's co founder whether it's another crisis or whether it's just a constantly changing paradigm of technology, we absolutely need to be responsive on our feet, we cannot run our business like we did five years ago, and we cannot be afraid of change. 130 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:17.880 Paul Casey: yeah and you bring up that word change, what do you feel most people don't of course don't like change. 131 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:24.330 Paul Casey: I find leaders are a little bit more comfortable with it because we're the ones, usually driving it you had this huge growth. 132 00:19:24.870 --> 00:19:39.150 Paul Casey: spurt in the last couple of years, so i'm sure with that came some change whether that's procedures, if not just different people, how do you best lead organizational change and how would you recommend other business leaders lead change. 133 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.670 Chris: yeah that's that's a great question there's always resistance to change. 134 00:19:46.230 --> 00:19:50.310 Chris: In fact, well, I probably won't share that story, I was about to share a. 135 00:19:50.310 --> 00:19:53.430 Chris: story, but I don't know if I could do it in a confidential enough medicine. 136 00:19:55.050 --> 00:19:57.600 Chris: But there's always resistance to change but. 137 00:19:58.830 --> 00:20:05.820 Chris: yeah I think you just have to talk about how you know the very obvious truth that if we don't change we stay the same. 138 00:20:06.120 --> 00:20:11.940 Chris: Now that just sounds so stupid, but it's true if we don't change we don't grow if we don't change we don't progress. 139 00:20:12.510 --> 00:20:22.950 Chris: And I think people just need to realize, you know, like my friend my mentor that I talked about earlier that I met at anthony's going from a one person company to a 600 person company. 140 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:28.530 Chris: Their organizational chart must have changed, you know 27 different times, or more. 141 00:20:29.220 --> 00:20:36.630 Chris: And even in Puerto kitty, you know as we went from when, as a seven person company, you know our organizational chart was basically here's the two owners of the top. 142 00:20:37.080 --> 00:20:45.150 Chris: And here's the five people that report to us it was just very basic we had an organizational chart but it's like okay we're in charge and we're the supervisors that's all it is. 143 00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:53.550 Chris: But now as a 24 person company, the two owners don't necessarily want to be in charge of all 24 so we revamped our organizational chart. 144 00:20:54.150 --> 00:21:02.550 Chris: And that is something that i'd recommend that's something that Michael gerber recommends and the E myth, no matter how small your company is make an organizational chart. 145 00:21:03.090 --> 00:21:13.800 Chris: give each person, a job title give each person, a list of their duties that they need to fulfill and, as you grow annually, you should be updating that organization chart. 146 00:21:15.750 --> 00:21:29.010 Paul Casey: What do you do what became a something you delegated to that next level I think you're calling the directors right, the Director level that you did before, but with growth and you know delegated for someone else to supervise. 147 00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:46.230 Chris: Well, one example would be semi annual performance reviews, yes, so I used to do all of them myself and now i'll do the four directors, will do a semi annual review with me and then each of them will do four or five with the people in their department. 148 00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:59.280 Paul Casey: What do you use for performance reviews what system, do you do some self evaluation is it a is it a rating scale is it more narrative what have you sort of landed on lately I know it's probably always in flux, but. 149 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:12.180 Chris: yeah one thing I mean there's a lot we could talk about there, but one thing I think that we've changed recently that's been very effective is give the staff member of the team Member the feedback before the performance review. 150 00:22:13.050 --> 00:22:22.110 Chris: You don't want to be sitting face to face with somebody and all of a sudden just surprise them with some negative feedback or constructive criticism, as we call it in a more politically correct. 151 00:22:22.110 --> 00:22:22.470 Chris: way. 152 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:27.930 Chris: You don't just want to surprise somebody in a face to face setting because naturally they'll become defensive. 153 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:33.840 Chris: So if you send them an email beforehand and say hey thanks so much for meeting with me tomorrow at two. 154 00:22:34.470 --> 00:22:44.880 Chris: Here are some things that I think have been going really well give them six or seven here's two things that I think we can improve on and set some goals on, then they go into the meeting, knowing what's going to be discussed and there'll be less defensive. 155 00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:56.400 Paul Casey: I found that i've got three other clients that also do that same thing they send their performance review a day in advance it's for the people who like to Milan things you know and it probably. 156 00:22:56.820 --> 00:23:08.850 Paul Casey: Well, for mostly it settles them down because they get freaked out on the day of their performance review, but yeah it's sort of like brings it in and more of a conversation the next day, instead of the surprise or. 157 00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:13.800 Paul Casey: This is, you know this is going to be this very tense conversation I think it's a great move. 158 00:23:15.360 --> 00:23:17.280 Paul Casey: Speaking of difficult conversations. 159 00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:36.180 Paul Casey: Conflict very difficult among teams and when you're a supervisor and you have to confront a direct reports someone on your team it's it's usually not a whoo you know kind of day, how do you first of all bolster the courage to have that conversation, and not just let it keep on going. 160 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:47.220 Chris: yeah I think you bolster the courage by reminding yourself that that conversation is not only good for you, but it's good for that particular team Member to hear. 161 00:23:48.870 --> 00:23:54.990 Chris: You know and Jim Collins again back to good degrade he talks about that a lot he talks about, for example, the ultimate. 162 00:23:55.770 --> 00:24:06.540 Chris: Tough conversation is the conversation where you have to let somebody go and he talks about in his book if there's somebody who is not a good fit for your organization not only. 163 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:13.920 Chris: Are you doing yourself a disservice by keeping them on you're doing them a disservice by keeping them on the team because. 164 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:18.930 Chris: They might be a much better fit for another organization with a different culture with different goals. 165 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:31.830 Chris: And by continuing to keep them on your bus, even though they're in the wrong seat and on the wrong bus you're basically wasting years of their life so do yourself a favor do them a favor by having that tough conversation. 166 00:24:32.190 --> 00:24:50.550 Paul Casey: No, that is so good, because you really want to have the conversation in service of them, and your organization so you're serving two purposes and when people just don't want to have that conversation so you've had to let people go, probably in the course of your leadership over the years. 167 00:24:51.900 --> 00:25:05.940 Paul Casey: Take us there for a moment what have you learned about the the conversation where it's like we're not a match, how does How does that go, but what recommendations would you have to business owners and other leaders who have to have that conversation. 168 00:25:06.930 --> 00:25:10.020 Chris: yeah well there's certainly no easy way to have that conversation. 169 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:16.770 Chris: But you really just want to treat people very well on their way out. 170 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:25.560 Chris: Whether that be giving them a generous severance payment on their way out or allowing them to stay on the health insurance for a couple months. 171 00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:40.860 Chris: Just whatever you can do to really kind of make the transition easier from your place to someone else's and if it wasn't really you know, a specific problem with their job performance, it was just in general they didn't fit the culture. 172 00:25:42.090 --> 00:25:52.440 Chris: That you were trying to promote maybe they would be a great fit at another company and you could even help them try to find that next company try to find that next job where they would be a good fit. 173 00:25:53.610 --> 00:26:02.070 Chris: So I think more than just choosing the right words during the conversation I think you have to look at the whole experience as treating that employee with dignity on their way out. 174 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:15.660 Paul Casey: Oh, so good that we're dignity yeah always helping them save face I had one boss that told me, you know someday I might be working for you, Paul and and as a custodian so I want to make sure we leave on good terms. 175 00:26:16.260 --> 00:26:26.340 Paul Casey: That was good you've never done it in a Community like the tri cities to you're going to run into these folks probably that it's important for us to do it well, always with dignity. 176 00:26:26.790 --> 00:26:31.560 Chris: yeah and Paul that's a key point where we are in a small town, this is not Chicago, this is not New York. 177 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:41.190 Chris: And with customers and staff members even former staff members yeah you're going to run into them at the grocery store, you know, two weeks from now so just treat everybody kindly and with dignity. 178 00:26:42.210 --> 00:26:53.010 Paul Casey: You mentioned the word culture, when you said you know they may not be a fit for the culture, what kind of culture is porter Kenny trying to develop among the staff so that. 179 00:26:53.460 --> 00:27:04.650 Paul Casey: You know if I were to walk in your business, this would be like the feel that I would get you know, in the air, what do you try to promote there and what are you banging the drum on always with your team. 180 00:27:05.850 --> 00:27:15.300 Chris: yeah that is a fantastic question so we definitely have a culture of continuous improvement and with continuous improvement comes change like you mentioned. 181 00:27:15.990 --> 00:27:23.790 Chris: we're a different company, they will were just two years ago, so people that are resistant to change and don't like. 182 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:38.250 Chris: Learning a new software program or you know learning a new process or having a new organizational chart they would have a tougher time staying with quarter Kenny, because we have this constant pursuit of excellence and improvement in our organization. 183 00:27:39.510 --> 00:27:47.430 Chris: And then on the flip side of that we also like to have fun and we like to you know, have a good rapport with everyone on the team. 184 00:27:48.900 --> 00:28:02.580 Chris: We like to have a fun culture and we'd like to not take ourselves too seriously and those two aspects of our culture, they might seem like you know, oil and water trying to mix, but I think you could have both. 185 00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:07.920 Paul Casey: So i'm not gonna i'm not gonna see some nerf gun wars in the accountants office is that what i'm saying. 186 00:28:09.570 --> 00:28:16.950 Chris: yeah you might just see somebody converting a desk to a ping pong table in the other room a couple days ago. 187 00:28:17.790 --> 00:28:18.090 Paul Casey: Good. 188 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:18.870 Paul Casey: I like it. 189 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:24.150 Chris: I didn't know they solve these little small ping pong nets that you can put on top of a desk and you know, have a couple of games. 190 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:24.510 that's. 191 00:28:25.830 --> 00:28:34.290 Paul Casey: awesome well Chris Finally, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence. 192 00:28:35.790 --> 00:28:38.370 Chris: Well, I think i've already given it but. 193 00:28:39.870 --> 00:28:52.170 Chris: I was recently talking to a very new business owner probably had two employees and I could tell during that meeting, you know, he did 95% of talking he didn't ask for any advice. 194 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:55.980 Chris: The impression I got was that he already knew everything. 195 00:28:57.750 --> 00:29:05.940 Chris: Even though I could tell that certainly there were things that he could do better with his business so just having a little bit of humility and just recognizing. 196 00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:13.680 Chris: Wherever you are in your leadership, development or in the business growth, there are people ahead of you that you can learn things from. 197 00:29:14.610 --> 00:29:23.580 Chris: Some of those people are right here in the tri cities, and you know sit down with them ask them questions and some of those people are national experts who have written books read those books. 198 00:29:24.450 --> 00:29:32.190 Chris: don't ever get to the point where you think you just have all the answers, and you know everything because that's the point in which your professional development is going to go downhill. 199 00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:41.850 Paul Casey: Absolutely stay teachable stay coachable tries to the influencers Chris How can our listeners connect with you and your business. 200 00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:48.480 Chris: Well, I can feel free to shoot me shoot me a question at Chris at quarter can u.com that's my email. 201 00:29:50.010 --> 00:29:59.850 Chris: yeah and you know our business information is pretty easy to find our website is porter can you calm, but yeah one of your listeners can can feel free to reach out to me if they wanted to connect. 202 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:05.940 Paul Casey: Well, thanks again for all you do to make the tri cities, a great place and keep leading well. 203 00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:07.320 Chris: Thank you, Paul. 204 00:30:08.070 --> 00:30:11.820 Paul Casey: We wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. 205 00:30:12.090 --> 00:30:21.390 Paul Casey: i'm starting a membership Community i'm calling it bullseye bullseye is going to be for team leaders, if you supervise other people bulls is for you. 206 00:30:21.600 --> 00:30:28.890 Paul Casey: for less than like 75 cents a day you're going to get some plug and play resources every week in your email box. 207 00:30:29.130 --> 00:30:35.070 Paul Casey: Things videos you can play for your team meeting icebreakers that you can give in your one to ones. 208 00:30:35.340 --> 00:30:41.850 Paul Casey: They all have performance evaluation forms and one to one flow is there's going to be all sorts of great stuff. 209 00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:50.610 Paul Casey: If you're a team leader, so that you'll actually look forward to opening an email from growing forward services, so you can come to my website at Paul casey.org. 210 00:30:50.790 --> 00:31:00.660 Paul Casey: As that begins to launch and get in on the ground floor of this, because then you'll be part of the discussion as we help each other grow in our businesses and leadership development. 211 00:31:02.910 --> 00:31:10.620 Paul Casey: Again this is Paul Casey want to thank my guest Chris porter from porter Kenny, for being here today on the tri cities influencer podcast we also want to thank our. 212 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:19.740 Paul Casey: sponsor and invite you to support them, we appreciate you making this possible, so that we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our Community. 213 00:31:20.130 --> 00:31:34.530 Paul Casey: Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence when you lose your focus, you lose your momentum until next time KGF keep growing forward.

Chris gives the deets on that new new – (he joined a startup!) and laments about the back button being so complicated. Steph talks about extracting an untrustworthy service and likens the scenario to making a Pixar movie. You don't wanna miss this hero's journey! Eric Bailey's bunny updates (https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1389332217088851971) Katrina Owen's Therapeutic Refactoring Talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4dlF0kcThQ) EnjoyHQ (https://getenjoyhq.com/) User research platform Aurelius (https://www.aureliuslab.com/) also a user research platform Dry Monad (https://dry-rb.org/gems/dry-monads/1.3/) (part of dry-rb (https://dry-rb.org/)) Previous Bike Shed discussing dry-monads (https://www.bikeshed.fm/243) Railway Oriented Programming (https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/rop/) Bike Shed "Seeking Calm" Episode (https://www.bikeshed.fm/279) Previous Episode Discussing Multi-Step Forms (https://www.bikeshed.fm/295) Discussion thread on Inertia repo re: back button cache (https://github.com/inertiajs/inertia/issues/247) Transcript: STEPH: Yes, I was getting text messages from you where you were like, “Go on without me.” CHRIS: [laughs] Leave me behind! STEPH: [laughs] No developer left behind!! CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, how's your week going? STEPH: Hey, Chris. It's been a very busy week. There's been a lot going on. But the most delightful part of my week has been that Eric Bailey, another thoughtboter and also a former guest on this show, has a tiny, little baby bunny living in his backyard, and so he has been sharing updates about this little baby bunny. In fact, he's been sharing some pictures on Twitter as well. So I'll include a link in the show notes so other people can experience the joy. Also, the name of the bunny gets me every time. But they have named the bunny “Corndog.” CHRIS: Checks out. It seems like a very obvious name for a small bunny. STEPH: It gets me because that's such a big name. I don't know why it's a big name, but it feels like a big name for a little bunny. CHRIS: I can say yeah, it's a cornball. Yeah, that's a large name. And so a tiny bunny is a...it's like Little John from Robin Hood. It's perfect. STEPH: [chuckles] I kept referring to him as Corn Nugget, I guess, because of size. But yes, it's not corn nugget; it's Corndog. [chuckles] So watching Eric's little bunny has been delightful and a wonderful addition to the week. How about you? How has your week been? CHRIS: My week has been great. I was off on vacation last week (so you had a guest on), which was fun to just take a week off and reset the system. But actually, this week has been interesting. It was my first full-time week with a new startup that I have joined. I think, yeah, that seems to be the truth in the world. So a bit of a shift from what I've been doing for the last year and a half, almost something like that. The reason there's hesitance in my voice is because I've actually been working with this organization for six months-ish, depending on how you count it. I've been having conversations, and then it's slowly grown over time where it was just conversations, and then it was an afternoon a week, and then one day a week, and then two, and three. And finally, we decided we think we've got an idea. We've got a thing that we want to build. And so I am the developer on this team, but we are an early-stage startup trying to build something. I'm now full-time on the project. I rotated down the other projects that I was working on from a freelance consulting perspective, and now I'm trying something new. So it's a very different vibe. Even though I'd been working with the organization for a long time, this week just felt so much more real. And there was so much more space, so much more room for activities, having a full week to actually work on things. So yeah, it's very exciting, it's very new, it's very early stage, so all of those things are true. But there are a lot of great aspects to that, and I'm super excited about it. STEPH: That is some big news. That's a big change too. Well, I guess with consulting, there are the stresses that go into consulting and then changing projects and managing the projects that you're taking on. But then to joining a team and such an early startup team too...anytime, someone says startup life, I'm always like, well, tell me more. How calm is the startup life, or how uncalm is this startup life? CHRIS: It's somewhere between calm and uncalm, I would say, but in a, I would say purposeful and intentional way. I was looking for...this has largely been true over the entire time that I was freelancing, but freelancing was a way for me to keep the lights on, and stay engaged with tech, and continue working, and frankly, have more conversations and meet more organizations. But I was looking for something that I could engage with a bit more. I was looking for, largely, something like this. So it definitely is occupying a different space in my head than, say, any individual consulting client where with consulting, I was pretty rigid, you know, these are the hours that I'm working. When I'm off the clock, I'm really not thinking about it too much. I'm responsive if I see an incident or something like that or if the database falls over; I'm going to look at that on the weekend but otherwise, largely not doing anything. Whereas with this project, I'm somewhat purposefully allowing it to have a little bit more space in my head off-hours, that sort of thing. And I'm more invested in the work. It's not just a thing that I'm doing, but it's a project that I believe in. It's something that I want to exist in the world. And so, I'm engaged with it in a different way in that manner. I'm also engineer number one, so I'm choosing all of the technologies and setting the standards. Thankfully, there's a lot of good thoughtbot material out there that I can link to, which is great. But yeah, so it's mostly within the context of what I think startups can be. The expectations and the way that the team is working is very reasonable. And I think it's more for my own self. I'm allowing it to occupy a little bit more of my space, but in a fun way so far. STEPH: Well, along that line, in terms of choosing the tech stack and starting greenfield, I am curious to hear more about the type of project that you're going to be working on. But I'm also recognizing y'all may be in stealth mode. Is that where you're at, or can you talk a bit more about the type of work you'll be doing? CHRIS: We're stealth-ish right now, I would say, partly because we're likely in the process of rebranding, and renaming, and things like that. So partly it's just like, oh, I probably shouldn't say that. But at some point, this will become public, and so at that point, I can probably be a little bit more open about it. But at the end of the day, we're building a financial product, FinTech sort of thing. And the tech stack is relatively straightforward. I'm actually using my preferred tech stack is...I got to choose, so it's Rails, Inertia, and Svelte with some TypeScript because why not? And I love it, and it's fantastic. I continue to believe deeply in that tech stack. So, yeah, that's most of what I think is good to say now. But I think over the coming weeks, I'll be able to say more and share more. And I certainly will be able to talk about the details of building and growing a team and things like that. STEPH: Awesome. Yeah, you answered my other question too. I was going to ask what tech stack you chose. CHRIS: I chose the tech stack, the one with the acronym, which I don't even know...the STIR stack I think we went with or something. STEPH: I was about to say I don't remember the acronym. [laughs] CHRIS: I think I never committed to an acronym previously, and then that was the one that got thrown around on the internet. I think I just was like, in the next episode of The Bike Shed, I'll choose an acronym so STIR, why not? STEPH: I like it, causing a stir. CHRIS: But yeah, so it's a pretty sizable shift in my life. But frankly, I don't even know exactly the shape that the coming weeks will have. So it will be interesting to report back as things evolve and as new concerns and considerations come up. But, yeah, we'll save that for future weeks. For now, what else is up in your world? STEPH: Yeah, it's been an interesting week. There have been really two things on my mind, so one of them has been focused on writing a task that's going to process a sizable CSV. And then it's going to essentially enqueue a bunch of jobs and send off a bunch of data to other third-party systems. So that's been a big focus of the week. The other topic is what I'm going to call extracting an untrustworthy service into its own service. And I know that's a bit vague, but I've got both of those topics. So which one would you want to hear about first? CHRIS: I definitely want to hear about both. But because you veiled it in mystery and said, “An untrustworthy,” that one's just going to call to me a little bit more. So yeah, what about this extracting and untrustworthy service? What more can you say there? STEPH: Good question. I'm glad that you picked the mysterious one and started there. That feels right. So this is a part of our codebase, and it's very related to also the task that I'm writing. So to provide a bit of context, this particular portion of the codebase manages a big part of where we are sending data from our application over to third-party systems. And it's a very important feature of our application. And it's also probably one of the gnarliest sections of our application in terms of there are tons of conditionals based on which type of service we're sending to or the discreet customer that we're sending it to, and any particular preferences that they need and how we're sending that data. And then there's also just a lot of room for ambiguity and errors. And when we are sending that data, was it actually successful? And what if it was successful, but we still got back error messages? What does that mean? Is that successful with warning? And so there are just a lot of unknowns. It's also one of the less tested areas of the codebase. So even though it's important, we really don't feel confident making changes at this point until we've added some more test coverage. And testing it can be a beast because right now, we really just want to add some security around that section of the codebase. So we're often going for high-level tests, which are then our slower tests, but then also means it's hard to test the more granular aspects of that code. This is that untrustworthy section of the code in terms that we're a bit skittish to make changes, but yet it's a very active part of the codebase, so not the best place to be. But we also recognize that this part of the codebase would be really well-fitted to live outside of the application. It really doesn't need to live with the rest of the application. And there are other services that need to be able to talk to the service as well. So instead of having it grouped together, which -- It's funny. I see your eyebrows go up when I talk about -- For people who can't see, Chris raised his eyebrows when I talked about extracting this to another service. [chuckles] CHRIS: That doesn't sound like me at all. I don't ever… STEPH: [chuckles] And since we do have other services that need to be able to pull data or to talk to this particular portion of the codebase, we are looking to then move it out into its own application, so that way, it can stand alone. It can focus on this one task, and then other services can benefit from it as well. And there's been an interesting discussion around, well, we need to make changes to this codebase. And we also have some recognition that we need to make improvements. Do we go ahead and go heads down for a bit and improve the section of the codebase, add more test coverage, get to understand more of what this code does, where the risks are? Or do we go ahead and extract it in its current form to the new greenfield space and just essentially port it, and then we work on it from that space? And so, there's been a conversation around which one do we do first? And I'll tell you my thoughts, and then I'd love to hear yours. As one of the primary individuals that's been working in this codebase, my stance has been let's leave it in place for now because I want to build some confidence around what this does. So I really want to have some confident understanding about the requirements, about when we extract this, what is that going to look like? But also, I feel like I'm in a place where I'm starting to understand the beast enough that I want to continue that progress and add some testing around it before then we just move it to this new location. And I can't decide if that's one of those decisions where like, I just feel too close to it, and extracting it feels risky to me. So I feel like we're adding on this extra level of complexity. Like, this is already code that's hard to understand. And then we're going to add this network connection on top of that where then we have to talk to it in a different way. And in my mind, that's adding another level of risk and another level of having to debug this service. So my current approach is let's leave it in place. Let's try to identify some low-hanging fruit. Let's go ahead and add some more tests. And I feel pretty good about that decision. I'm curious, what are your thoughts? CHRIS: I have a bunch of them. The first is that the story that you're telling here feels like the hero's journey of software development. Like, all right, we got this gnarly bit of the code. It's super important. It's super complicated. It doesn't really have any test coverage for historical reasons that are complicated, but here we are. What do we do? That story feels so true. It feels like there are nine Pixar movies about it if Pixar made movies about writing code, and they would be great movies. STEPH: That's amazing. [laughs] I would watch those movies. CHRIS: I think of it like Katrina Owen's therapeutic refactoring, which I feel like is probably my most referenced...It's one of my two most referenced talks that I bring up on the show all the time, but it is almost exactly about that sort of thing. We've got this gnarly piece of code. It's super important, but nobody really knows how it works. But we know it does work, which is an interesting bit. And so to the question of would you extract as is or would you try and shore it up before you extract it? I am 100% on the side that you are on, which is let's shore this thing up before we move it over. Because moving it over, like you said, that's going to add the additional complexity and failure modes of network latency, network timeouts, async disconnects, whatever, any of those complexities. That's another set of failure modes that you'll be introducing or just complexity and things that you have to think about. So that feels complicated. Also, there's probably a poor analogy that I have in my head. But imagine that you're moving, and your bedroom is just a complete mess, and you're like, oh, there are some old to-go food containers over there. And I haven't done my laundry in a couple of weeks. I'm just going to throw it all on a blanket and take it to the new house, and I'll figure out what I want to keep on the other side. It's like, that doesn't feel like the right move. I would definitely throw some things out before I move to a new house. So I definitely lean in to let's clean this up and understand it so that when it's in the new place, we have a slightly more contained, understood, manageable version of the software to try and extract to a service. STEPH: I feel very judged for my moving style. CHRIS: [laughs] I mean, obviously, with software, you're doing the one thing. But did I just describe exactly how you move house? STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: To each their own now, you know, whatever works for you. STEPH: No, I'm with you. I'm definitely the person that's going to clean up first before I put stuff in boxes. I'm going to try to give away as much stuff as possible. CHRIS: It's a great time to just figure out what's true in your life or what's true in your software. I am intrigued. So yes, I did raise my eyebrows when you mentioned extracting a service and other services talking to each other. In particular, the way you described this piece of the system, I would be surprised if there weren't data requirements and/or transactional consistency things that you wanted to uphold. And that's one of the main things that causes me concern when we're extracting services is if this thing still needs to know about a bunch of different pieces of data and if it's going to make multiple updates to different records where if one succeeds and the other doesn't, we should roll back the whole thing. You lose all of that by moving to a service. And so that's where my broad…like, I'm always going to question if we're going to surface this. So I'm intrigued. Is this thing a very functional piece of your system where some data comes in, some stuff happens, and you get data out at the end of the day? Or is it more operating on related data within your system and potentially updating records after the fact? STEPH: Yeah, that's a great point. For this area of the codebase, it does feel more functional in terms that we have data, and we essentially want to notify other people that we have this data, and then we want to share it with them. So there is still that coupling of where we need access to those values. So if we're sending it over to the new system, either that new system needs to be able to read from the same database, or we have to send all of those details over to the new system. So then it can build up the message and then send it over to the other third-party systems. So it feels more functional, but there are still some of those requirements that we need to think about. CHRIS: Okay. That definitely clarifies things. And I wouldn't say that I have a unified theory of services. But what you're describing feels like the type of service that I'm more open to. It sounds almost like a SendGrid where I want to deal with all of my application data. And then I send a bunch of structured data over to SendGrid, and their job is to send an email and retry as necessary or send a text message or even do a voice call if it's Twilio or something like that. And so they're really good at those weird things and the failure modes that exist in those communication channels. But that's not logic that I need to live in my app. And so what you're describing there definitely makes sense as something that could comfortably be extracted to a service and not have more complexity be introduced by that. You did mention something about services talking to services and other things. So is the idea that this would be extracted, then other parts of the system would also use it to communicate out messages or something like that. STEPH: Yeah, one of the motivations for extracting this is because we have another application that also wants to perform similar behavior. So now we have two applications that need to do similar work, and they feel more in that line of functional work where it would be great if we could share this. But it doesn't fit in the space that we want to extract it in regards to extract it to a gem and make it shareable. It feels more appropriate for it to be its own service and then also capture. Because the other nice thing that we want to include that we're doing now as well is we want to capture feedback from whenever we are sending that data over to other systems. We want to know, hey, how did it go? Did you give us back that successfully, but maybe with some warnings or some errors? Maybe you accepted the data, but then you also gave us a response about something else. I think one really important question to consider is when is it trustworthy enough to extract? Because we know we're headed down this path. So at what point are we ready to then go ahead and extract this over to its own service? And that was the more interesting conversation because I think those who were in favor of extracting it now had the concern that we can't add test coverage in its current form. So my first response was if I need to make changes and I can't add test coverage, I will sound the alarm, and we will reconsider. But my goal right now is to turn this untrustworthy service into a little more trust. Just dial up the trust a little bit further, and then we can port this over. So then, as we do add some network complexities on top of this, we will at least have more faith and understanding the underlying behavior of the system. But then we still want to understand that it's not going to be perfect. And we're not going to wait until it's perfect before we do extract it. But that's the tale or the mysterious extracting an untrustworthy service. So I think it will be an interesting journey. And it was a very interesting conversation that I was excited to have your thoughts because I know you and I often lean so far away from extracting stuff to a service that it was an interesting conversation to have around; well, this code is a bit of a mess. When do we start to tackle that mess? CHRIS: I like that you didn't even frame it necessarily in terms of that, but I still definitely got there. I was like, wait, wait, wait, but let's actually talk about whether or not. But this is definitely the sort of thing that I think makes sense to consider as a service extraction. I think the question that you're asking around when do we feel good enough in its current state to do the extraction? That's right on the line of art in the software world as opposed to the science of this is how we connect HTTP. So I'm very interested to see where you get to both with that question and how you actually make that decision and then how the extraction goes. And I imagine this will be the sort of thing that goes on for a bit of time. So it feels like we could make a mini-story arc that'll span a couple of episodes, and you can follow the characters on their journey. This is the Pixar movie. We're making a Pixar movie. STEPH: We're making a Pixar movie. They're missing an entire genre for their Pixar movies. If they just appeal to developers, that'd be wonderful. I'm so in for that. We should write Pixar. CHRIS: There are more developers every day, so think Hackers meets Up. That's what we're going for. We're just going to fuse those two together. It's going to pull at your heartstrings, but it's also going to talk about hacking the Gibson. It's going to be great. STEPH: Oh man, you reached for the most heartfelt one going for Up. That one has the toughest beginning. [laughs] CHRIS: That's what I'm going for here. STEPH: For anyone that hasn't seen Up, you can go watch the beginning of it. Just be prepared. CHRIS: And if anyone hasn't seen Hackers, also be prepared. [laughs] STEPH: Which is me. I haven't seen Hackers. CHRIS: All right. You still haven't. All right, that's a thing we need to work on. STEPH: [chuckles] CHRIS: But cool. Okay. So we're going to work on the Pixar movie. You're going to update us because we need to actually gather the information. But yeah, we'll come back to that in future episodes. But shifting gears just a little bit, actually, I have a couple of things, two small things, and then one more sizable thing that is more just like, I'm confused. So yeah, we're going to go in that order. Thing number one is, we are, again, it's a very early-stage startup that I'm working with. And part of what we're doing that I really like is that we are talking to potential customers, potential end-users of the application doing lots of user interviews, which is a thing that I have more from a distance seen often. But now, because we're actually working as a distributed team, we're remote because that's the nature of the world right now. We'll probably meet each other in person at some point, but that's down the road. But all of these conversations are happening over Zoom calls, all of these user interviews. And so I made the suggestion that we use a tool to actually manage those. And so we're using a tool called EnjoyHQ, I think is the name of it. There's another similar tool called Aurelius. We can put the links in the show notes for both of those. But what it does is it basically makes the video available after the fact. I think it automatically transcribes it, and then it allows you to annotate and add notes and things like that, which is great for aggregating this body of information that we're collecting over time as we do all of these user interviews and start to tag common themes that we're seeing. And bringing them together will also allow us to revisit them. But for me as the developer, I've been to a few of them, but not as many as the rest of the team. And what's great is I've now taken to...as I'm doing more mundane…cleaning up email or whatever sort of tasks, I will just put on one of these videos in the background at 2X. And what's great is I can now just hear literally the voice of the users of the application. What are the words that they're choosing? How are they talking about it? What matters to them? What doesn't matter to them? What do they get really passionate about? And it's been just such a wonderful thing to have available. It's almost like a podcast of our app that we're building, and it's like, that's awesome. STEPH: I love that. Yeah, I would love to be able to hear from people that are using the application. And like you mentioned, just turn it on in the background so that way I can process what they're saying. But then, I don't know, depending on what they're saying, maybe it needs full attention or otherwise, maybe you're able to just absorb little bits and pieces while you're hacking away on something else. And now I've got the word hacking stuck in my mind. [laughs] CHRIS: It's the best word to describe what we do. Yeah, there's definitely a version of someone should be reviewing...someone's actually doing the interview, so they're going to be very close to it. And then there maybe is a secondary someone's watching it closely and trying to glean, and categorize, and all of that. And I could potentially be any one of those, but I really like this version of this is just a background soundtrack that I'm exposing myself to so that I'm all the more immersed in the problem space that we are working on. And it's one of the things that I fundamentally believe about software development is developers shouldn't be hidden in the corner just writing code. We should always care about what the end-user wants, and what better way to get there than to actually hear their voice and hear the words that they're using. So this is a magical little trick that I have now found that I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. STEPH: Funny enough, I had a similar experience this past week where I realized I was feeling very disconnected from the people that are using the application and also the people that are setting priorities for the work that our team is doing. And that is something that I'm very accustomed to with thoughtbot that we always want to be part of the team. We're not necessarily just we can churn through a backlog. But we also really want to be in touch with product decisions, and share opinions, and then also be in touch with users too. So I had some similar revelations this week where I realized I was feeling very disconnected where I was picking up tickets, and I was like, I don't really understand why this is great or how this is helpful. And so, I shared that with the team, and someone encouraged me to attend a specific meeting. And that was wonderful because then I got to hear from the people who were creating those tickets and then giving them a high priority because something was urgent and why it was urgent. And having that insight was huge to me. And I realized that it was incredibly motivational as well. Because then I'm like, yes, okay, I understand how this is going to impact someone. And I'm now very encouraged to get this done. CHRIS: I think that idea, that ethos of wanting to get into the user persona and understand that better is a very strong thoughtbot ideal. So it's unsurprising both of us share that. But yeah, that was a really great thing and particularly a tool that facilitated that in a really straightforward way, which I appreciated. Another thing that I used this week, which I've talked about at length in a previous episode, so we can link to that episode, but it's a project called dry-monad. So there's dry-rb is the collection of, I think, a set of gems, but dry-monad is one that allows for defining sequential tasks, so tasks that you have to do a bunch of steps in order and the outcome of a previous step will be the input of the next part of the process. So it can fail in a bunch of ways like, okay, fetch this thing from the network and then look up a user based on that. And then get the user's profile, which may or may not exist, and then assuming that all of that's gone well, actually persist to this new record, to the database. And they're really finicky to write that sort of sequential processing. And so I actually had written that thing manually. And part of it was I'd wrapped the whole thing in a database transaction, but I was trying to make it so that if something went wrong, I would manually roll back the transaction. And then I wanted to return an object to the caller that indicated that things had failed and an error message or something like that. And that was actually really hard to do because of the way transactions work. The mechanism that I was using was apparently deprecated in Rails. And so the whole thing was just kind of confusing, and it was a bit messy in the code. And I knew in the back of my mind that dry-monad exists. I've used it before. I've really enjoyed it. But I was trying to minimize the amount of new technologies that I'm bringing in this early on in the project. It's like, yeah, I'll bring that in when I need it. But finally, I was like, you know what? I think I've reached that point. I grabbed it, brought it in, and I haven't worked with it in a while, but I was very quickly able to refactor my class to use dry-monad. It cleaned it up immensely. The tests remained identical, which was really interesting. I didn't have to change anything on the test side. And one of my tests was failing before and then passed because of the introduction of dry-monad. And yeah, it was just like a win-win-win, and also the fact that I was able to revisit dry-monad as a library and just get running with it again was really interesting to me because it is a bit complicated and interesting in how it works. But again, I was able to just sort of pick it up and run with it. So that was wonderful. And I will now all the more staunchly suggest that folks reach for that when they have more complex, procedural type code that they need to write. STEPH: I remember you highlighting dry-monad before in previous episodes and talking about the pain of writing that sort of procedural code, but then we also want to return something helpful. And I looked at it briefly, but I haven't used it. But now that you are reminding me of it, I'm very interested in it because I agree that process is difficult to write, at least in Ruby it's difficult to write. I understand the hesitancy that you have around bringing something in that's new. But then if you recognize that it's going to be a theme in your application around this is something that we're going to do a fair amount, and we want to do it in a clean, efficient way, then it starts to feel more reasonable to say, “Okay, I'm bringing in something new, but it is representative of how we want to handle this step or this type of process in our application.” So it's not just bringing in a gem to handle one small area of the code, something that we could have written, but it is elevating our process and our system. CHRIS: Yup. Indeed. In this case, these are command objects within the system. That's actually the name that I got from the creator of the project. That was his suggestion on Twitter as to what to call these objects. And it's a pattern that I do want to encode and has become the standard within the application for any of these more complex processing tasks. So, again, we'll link to the previous episode. I talked about it in more depth and the ideas behind it. Railway Oriented Programming is a phrase that's used, which talks about how to sequence failures or successes and whatnot together. And there's some good material behind it, more general, but yeah, wonderful, little library. STEPH: What is Railway Oriented Programming? I'm not familiar with that term. CHRIS: That refers to the sequential processing that I was describing. So imagine that you have a bunch of different steps where first you fetch from the network to get this record, then using what you got back, you look up a user in your database, then you fetch that user's profile. Then you do something else. Each of those steps along the way could fail. And so the railway metaphor is the track is going forward, but if at any point you branch off the track because of a failure, then you're in the failure track, and that's a different thing. And so it's a very...the dry-monad or other similar Railway Oriented Programming or monads generally I think is the actual...it's the words in there. And I wish it wasn't in there because it's such a complicated word. But that idea is the fundamental, underlying thing that's going on there. And it is conceptually somewhat complicated, but if you don't try and think about the category theory behind it, and you're just like, well, I want to do a bunch of stuff, and it may fail at any point, and I want to return either a success message with everything having gone well or an error message at the point that it failed and stopped processing, then that's what this thing does, and it's fantastic at it. STEPH: Okay, cool. Thank you. CHRIS: You are welcome. And I think there's a bit more in the previous episode as well. So if that sounded interesting to anyone, I think I rambled more in a previous episode about it and probably better because I feel like I was more prepared that time than this time. STEPH: Well, along those lines of running a process and then being able to fail at any moment, I'm going to circle back to that other topic that I highlighted where most of my week has been focused on writing a task that is processing a CSV, something probably a number of us have done at some point in our career but processing a number of rows, and then sending and queuing jobs to then send data to a third party system. And it was really interesting less so because of the processing of the CSV and then enqueuing jobs. But it was more of the reporting that went behind it and the process that went into writing this task. So Joël and I were pairing on this task. Joël being another thoughtboter and also a former guest on this show. And we had an interesting process of where we started with one, let's do the simplest thing. Let's get it done. Let's also check through the CSV because you're often going to find stuff that doesn't align with what you expect it to when it's a CSV that's provided from an external source. One of the risks that we highlighted right away was how are we going to get the CSV on the server? Because we just have this one CSV that we need to run. We don't want to add it to the repo, and we can't generate it ourselves. So how are we actually going to get the CSV in a place that we can run this in a production mode? I learned that I could pass a CSV as standard input into the Rake task. So then I could actually run it locally because we're using AWS. So I could inform AWS to run this task, but then I could actually stream the CSV into the task that way. And that was really nice because then we no longer had the question of how are we going to get this file on the server? CHRIS: That's interesting. I didn't know...Yeah, the streaming of it from local to remote is an interesting one. On Heroku, I will typically open up a bash prompt, so Heroku run bash. And then, I will curl the file down onto the server and then run it locally. But that's an ephemeral dyno. It may die at any point. There are various things that could go wrong there. So that's always interesting. I imagine a similar thing could be done, but I don't know, actually, if you can directly stream into a Heroku dyno like that, which is an even more straightforward one because I end up having to bounce a file off of a random. Like, I'll often put it in a Gist or a Pastebin or something like that. And then I'll curl it down to the server, and yeah, this is interesting. STEPH: Yeah, I'm also not sure the specifics of how it would work with Heroku. But it was a really nice process for us to be able to use versus having to then read the file from, like you mentioned, curl it from somewhere else and then be able to parse it that way. Two other things that were top of mind for working on this task is one, item potency. You're going to rerun it, friends. At some point, your task is either going to bomb, and it's going to err. And then you're going to have to triage and run it again. Or whoever requested that you run this task and they said, “Oh, it's just temporary. We're just going to run the once,” that's not true. You're going to run it again. So keep in mind how to make that safe, that you can rerun it. And then that won't be its own scenario that then you have to triage and figure out. CHRIS: Item potency is one of those critical ideas, and I just wish the word were different. I feel ridiculous every time I say it. And I feel like I have to push my glasses up on my nose, and I'm like, well, have we considered item potency for this? But it's such a good idea. And it's the sort of thing that...you're totally right. Every time you're doing this sort of thing, it is something that you should consider. And we use GET requests, and they have rules about it. And it's such a good idea and such an important idea. And I just wish the word were different so that I felt more comfortable using it in polite conversation. STEPH: [laughs] I don't know why… and this may be sharing too much of myself. But the song Under Pressure by Queen and David Bowie the Under Pressure song has been in my head. But I've been replacing the under pressure part with item potent. So it's [singing] under pressure, and I've been [singing] item potent. [laughter] And that has just been my song for the week. CHRIS: You've normalized it enough for me now that I'll just hear you singing it every time, and I'll be like, this is a nonsense word. We're fine. We can just go – [laughs] STEPH: That's what I'm here for, to turn technical terms into nonsense. [laughs] CHRIS: It's really what this show is about at the end of the day. So you are our hero. STEPH: I just have to work on more lyrics for the song. I really just have that one line, that one hook. [laughs] CHRIS: Now I just want to scrap the rest of the episode and just come up with lyrics to item potent. [chuckles] But maybe we don't do that. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Maybe that'll be after the credits B-roll, something like that. STEPH: The other way I do phrase that question is I'm like, what happens when it fails? And that always feels like a safe way. Because if I ask someone like, “Hey, is the item potent?” It feels more natural for people to be like, “Oh, it's fine. It doesn't need to be.” But if you say, “What happens when it fails?” It's harder for someone to say, “Oh, it's never going to fail. [laughs] There is nothing that could go wrong.” So it feels like a more intentional question in regards to how are we going to handle this when we need to rerun it? The other part that really came in handy was the fact that we spent more time on the reporting as well. So we really wanted to know what happened when we are processing all of these rows. So were there any invalid rows? And if we do encounter an invalid row, do we want to just stop processing and stop right there, or do we want to keep moving? Do we have any rows that didn't match, a row in our database, and how do we capture those? And because it's item potent, maybe we want to capture skipped rows so then that way when we rerun it, we can see okay, well, we skipped, you know, a thousand rows because we'd already run them before. And all of that reporting has been so handy because we're also using this to triage. Like, hey, we're sending a bunch of messages to this third-party system. We reach out to that third-party group, and we say, “Hey, we sent you all of this. This is how it went. Let us know how it went on your end.” And then, we can have a more collaborative discussion around what happened on their end versus what happened on our end, and then we can make tweaks to each system. So overall, it felt more of that run-of-the-mill task where you're going to write a Rake task, you're going to parse a CSV. But something about the reporting really resonated with me because in the past, when I've written Rake tasks, I've leaned more on the this is temporary, so it's okay if it's not great. But the reporting has been so crucial that from now on, I always want reporting from any Rake tasks that I run, and I want to know what happened. And then I also want to be able to rerun it. And I'm very wary of any time that someone says, “Oh, this is temporary,” because then I also think that leads to interesting discussions around testing. Because initially, when we started this, we were under some pressure. Hey, that goes back to my song. We were under some pressure for writing this particular task. And then the question came up: do we want to test it? And to be frank, testing a Rake task isn't great; it's not fun, which is one of the reasons we get out of a Rake task as quickly as possible and put it into a class. So that was also one of the drivers or one of the conversations that went against, like, oh, this is temporary. So it's okay if it's not the best code. It's okay if it's not tested. And then I was more of an advocate for, like, well, I don't feel good about this. And I'm rerunning the Rake task every time I want to confirm that the changes that I've made are correct. And so once I hit that manual labor point where I'm like, okay, I'm testing this. I just don't have automated tests for this, that then I actually started adding test coverage around it. CHRIS: I'm so excited that we have transcripts, particularly for that last minute that you were just talking about, because I feel like that was a mini master class in software development. And more generally, there's been almost like a poetic something to the two different topics that you've brought up today are the sort of mundane, very real things that actual software development is made almost entirely of. It's not often that we're just starting with a greenfield app and building a new thing. I happen to be doing that this week, but it's rare. It's going to be over very soon. And then I'm going to be in the world of oh; we have to backfill a bunch of data. How are we going to do that? Or we have this portion of the code that, frankly, we should have been testing more, but we didn't. How do we deal with that? And these murky, gray areas where there isn't a clear answer and you have to go with intuition, and you have to...a bunch of the things that you just listed as these good heuristics that you have around how you think about software. I'm just really excited for the transcript to that because that was awesome. STEPH: I'm so glad you enjoyed it because I think it's not until right now where I'm processing this and talking about it with you that it is...I was trying to think earlier, like, why is this so interesting? Why am I so excited to bring this here to this conversation? And I think it is for the reasons exactly that you said, that it does feel like one of these...this is a mundane task. We write a task; we process some things; we send some data. We do that all the time. But then it's all the other bits around it, and the other ways that we've been bitten, and how we avoid those scenarios, and then how we identify a risk like when someone says, “Oh, it's temporary. It's fine.” That part, I think, is always the very interesting aspect of writing software. CHRIS: Do you consider this sort of stuff the distraction from the work or actually the work? And in my experience, this makes up a lot of the work. And treating it like what you were saying about testing like, “Yeah, that thing where you're telling me that it's going to be temporary and we probably don't need to test it, I've been told that before,” and I just want to spot-check that real quick. Or what you said of the when I was manually testing, and I crossed a threshold where I'd done that enough, that now adding a test harness around that totally makes sense. It's worth the investment at that point. Those little heuristics that we build up over time are the things that are hard to get. And so, yeah, I love that conversation. STEPH: I really like how you also asked and then responded to that question around is this distraction, or is this the work? And I am wholeheartedly with you that this is the work. This is the part of the work that I do find interesting, and knowing when to make those trade-offs, and when you've hit a decision point, and which direction you're going to go, and being able to recognize something that otherwise could have been a fire. It could have been much worse in terms of if we'd built a task that wasn't robust. Because of course, then the second time that I ran it, you know, emphasis on the second time that I ran it because we needed to do it again to process more data. It erred halfway through, and I panicked in the moment. But then I was like, oh yeah, this is fine. We planned for this. This was in the game plan. So it goes back to that we want the calm execution. We want to plan so we are back in that calm state. We want calm software. And this feels very in line with how do we make this more calm? CHRIS: I love that theme that you're bringing up there, which I think is a theme that we've touched on a bunch of times. I think we actually have an episode called Seeking Calm. And I think that little title there, as much as I love the nonsense titles that we have for most of the episodes, that one I think really captures the theme that a lot of what we talk about is in orbit around yeah, we want it to be calm. We don't want things to be on fire every day. And what does it look like to build software with that in mind? STEPH: Yeah. I also love that theme. And I like that it's something that we have surfaced and then really stuck to because it resonates deeply with me. But that's pretty much all I have for my Rake task adventure. What else is new in your world? CHRIS: Well, I have one more hopefully quick thing. I'm going to try and boil this down to its essence, but I ran into, let's call it, a subtlety. It's not an issue. It wasn't a bug per se. But looping back to the previous episode that you and I recorded together, we talked a bunch about multi-step forms, which was a great conversation in and of itself. But I eventually completed the feature that I was working on, put it up for acceptance. And the product manager who was reviewing it highlighted a couple of different things. They recorded a video which, as an aside, I love that as a way to do acceptance and show what's going on and talk through it. There were a couple of smaller issues, which I was able to resolve very quickly, but there was one more interesting one that I've extracted this as future work because it was too complex to try and solve in the moment. But basically, what's happening is imagine that we have a two-step form. So there's the first page of the form. The first form that you see is for your name. So it's just an input that says, “Name,” and you fill in your name and then you hit continue. That posts to the server. We save off that data. And then, we redirect you to the next page on the form, which is, say, phone number. So two steps. We start with name; we go to phone number. What happens if you type in your name, you hit continue, everything processes correctly. You end up on the phone number page, but you hit back. What do you think happens? STEPH: I would expect to go back to the name field and probably expect my name to be populated but would also be fine if it's not. CHRIS: I like that you would be fine with the fact that it's not, if it's not, because it's not is the answer. And what's unfortunate is so if someone goes back, they will see the unpopulated form, so not filled out. But if they reload at that point, we will serialize down the value and pre-fill the input with their saved data. And so that inconsistency is not great. It's all the more unfortunate because as I tried to resolve it, I'm like, oh, okay, this feels like a solvable thing. I just need to tell Chrome, “Hey, if someone hits the back button, do a better thing than what you're doing.” I needed a way to instruct Chrome or whichever browser because this should be a standards-level thing. And there are things in the HTTP spec about this. So there's the Cache-Control Header is one of the headers that you can send down with a response. And there's a bunch of different values that can be in there, no-cache, no-store. There's also the…I want to say it's the max-age, or I think it's Expires. That's a different header. But you can set it to have an expiry that's just already expired. There's also a Pragma, which you can say no-cache. Some of these are standard. Some of these are not standard. Chrome ignores all of them. Chrome's just like, “Nevermind.” So the idea is that those headers are intended to inform intermediate proxies. Say you have a caching layer, so you're using Fastly or CloudFront or something like that. When that service fetches the page from your backend, from your actual, say, Rails app, then it will look at that header and say, “Should I hold onto this for a little while or not? Is it public, or is it private? What should I do as an intermediate caching proxy?” Ideally, Chrome would also look at those and say, like…there should be a version of me being able to tell Chrome, “Listen, if someone hits the back button, please go to the server and ask for it.” Like, I'll take the second of latency that that introduces in navigating back because I always want to show them the correct data. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to do that. There's a bunch of things on Stack Overflow and other places of JavaScript solutions where I can listen to the window.popstate event and then force location.reload. But that feels like a pile of hacks that I don't want to get into. It feels like it will be very inconsistent between browsers. So I am still searching for a solution. But I would like to figure something out here. As a more pointed version of this to try and explain an example where this could happen, imagine that you've got the header of your application, and in it, you have a sign-out button. And so that sign out is going to delete to the session's endpoint. So you're deleting your session. And after that, you get redirected to the login form. If you then hit back, you will be taken back to the browser's cached version of the previous logged-in state page that you were at. This is probably fine in a lot of cases. If you reload, you can't do any nefarious action at that point because you are logged out. But you are seeing potentially sensitive information. So imagine that you log in in a cafe, you go through Gmail, or whatever, or your bank, then you log out, you walk away. If you leave that page up and someone hits back, they can now see what was on the page. And part of that particular version, I read a bunch of backstory about that on the Inertia repo because someone posted this as an issue against Inertia as a framework. And the Inertia team...and I really love how they handle these sorts of things. So they were very kind, very welcoming to the issue but also said, “Actually, we're doing...like, this isn't us. But let's talk about it,” and gave a ton of detail and went through the HTTP spec. And it's a fantastic issue as a read. It's like a fun bedtime reading sort of thing to learn about how the internet works. But the Inertia crew really, really cares about being spec-compliant and doing the right thing. So, unfortunately, this is outside of their purview as well. But yeah, I don't have a solution, and it makes me sad. STEPH: I liked that second example that you provided because I feel like I see that one more commonly when I'm on an application, and I don't know why. But I hit back, and then it shows that I'm signed in, and I'm like, that's a lie, I'm not signed in. I also really appreciate how Inertia is responding so kindly and welcoming to folks and then providing such thoughtful responses. That sounds immensely helpful. I don't know, yeah, I am also interested in this. It's something that I haven't worked with in a while, so I don't have any grand ideas at the moment. So I'm also curious if other people have run into this and how they've approached it. CHRIS: Yeah. If we're being honest, partly I wanted to share this with you, but also I wanted to say this into a microphone, and then hopefully someone out there on the internet knows an answer. I've tried, I think, all of the normal things, all of the different variations of headers. I haven't actually poked at the JavaScript things yet, but that's probably the direction I'm going. But if anyone out there has an idea, I would absolutely love it. I think in my mind, the ideal version of this is if I'm making GET requests and I'm clicking around on a page, it's perfectly fine for Chrome to use its cache version of the previous page because, sure, that's fine. It may actually be stale just based on it's been a few seconds, and something's changed on the server, but I'm willing to accept that. But if I've posted, or patched, or deleted, or done any action that by definition should be changing data on the server, then I would love for a way to invalidate Chrome's back cache, so its version of the pages that it's restoring when I'm hitting back. I'd love that as the heuristic to get to. I don't know if I can get there. My sense says chrome's like, “No, I want to go fast. That's all I care about.” [chuckles] I'm like, all right. Well, I get that vibe but -- STEPH: Yeah, that's a nice, succinct way to say that if I've changed data, then I want to invalidate that browser cache, so then we don't show them a fresh page and we actually show them the name that they entered on the form. CHRIS: As we know, though, cache invalidation is one of the very easy things to do in software development. So I'm sure my naive, quick idea is very easy to implement and will have no edge cases of its own. STEPH: Well, this will be our parallel Pixar movie. We have one that we highlighted earlier, and this will be the other one, The Cache Buster. I'm not great with titles. [laughs] This will be our other Pixar movie. CHRIS: Buster the Lonely Cache. Yep. STEPH: All right. Well, in parallel, we'll work on Buster the Lonely Cache. Is that the name of this? CHRIS: Yep. STEPH: Cool. We'll work on that script. And in the meantime, I'll also think about it if I encounter this or come up with some ideas and share them with you. And then also if other people have any ideas, that'd be fantastic. CHRIS: That would be fantastic. STEPH: Yes. Please write in to help Buster with the lonely cache, which, wait; I don't get it. Why is it the lonely cache? CHRIS: Because the cache has been busted and evicted. So he's got no friends. There's nothing...There's no data left. I don't know. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I came up with it real quick. I don't stand by it. It's not a great idea, but we'll workshop it. It'll be fine. STEPH: That's true. Yeah, we'll go through it. I'm asking too many questions for a very quick creative. We're in the creative space, not the critical space. But please write in to help Buster figure out [laughs] the lonely cache or how to bust the cache. Oh, goodness. I'm done with my jokes for today. I'll try to stop. CHRIS: I believe that's a perfect note. Shall we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. CHRIS: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPH: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or a review in iTunes as it helps other people find the show. CHRIS: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed on Twitter. And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: And I'm @SViccari. CHRIS: Or you can email us at hosts@bikeshed.fm. STEPH: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Bye. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Chris: Hi, Adelina. Tell me again, you're from Spain. Where exactly from Spain are you?Ade: I come from the south, a region called Andalucia.Chris: As we say, Andalusia?Ade: Yes.Chris: Where is this, that's the south, and then if you say south, everybody would think holiday, beach, staying up late, partying even.Ade: Yeah, they are right. We know how to enjoy life. And actually it's very like ... I don't know, but people go to island for summer holidays, but if they really want to know what the real Spain is, they should go to the south.Chris: Of course, because since you're from the south, that's why you say that.Ade: No, it's not because of that, it's because there is where the flamenco comes from, the bullfighting, and I don't know, we have more Spanish customs there.Chris: Okay. Now, so if you would have to say to somebody, if you have to tell a tourist, instead of always going to the same cities like Mallorca, Benidorm, Tenerife, if you would say three really good places in your country, where would you send someone?Ade: Well it depends what they like, if they are people who enjoy nature I will say ... I don't know, go to Granada and Sierra of Granada, name of Alpujarras, there you can find this little village, that they are so authentic. But Granada city also, they have a very nice castle name La Alhambra, is very, very beautiful. And you also have Sierra Nevada if you enjoy skiing and snowboarding. But if you are a city person I will recommend Barcelona of course, very nice in culture, in art, in shopping, in clubbing, is very, very nice city.Chris: Well I hope you're not going to say football now.Ade: No, no, no, not at all, I'm not a football girl.Chris: Okay, so Granada of course in winter must be beautiful for skiing holidays and everything, but in summer it must be really too hot there.Ade: Yes, it is, it's more a city to go and enjoy in wintertime.Chris: So you tell people to stay away from the beaches and visit the inside of the country?Ade: Yeah, you can also go to the beaches. But I mean like the...Chris: What beaches?Ade: I don't know, Mallorca is very nice, Minorca, Ibiza, all the islands are actually, but the problem is that this is ... these islands are so focused on tourism that they actually lose the real taste of Spain. It's too focused on tourism, because for example, if you go to any place on Mallorca you will find all the restaurants with all the menus writing down in German, in English, in all the languages but Spanish. In my point of view, I don't think it's nice because you go to a place where it's sunny but you find actually the same food and the same language and the same lifestyle that you find in your country or for eating. I don't think it's nice to have a holiday like this.Chris: So you mean that when you go somewhere you really want to know that you're in that place, so for example, if you're in China you want to see the menu in Chinese and that's it?Ade: Why not.Chris: Yeah, okay, you're right. Thank you.

Phil’s guest on this episode of the IT Career Energizer podcast is Chris Ferdinandi. He is the author of the Vanilla JS Pocket Guide series, creator of the Vanilla JS Academy training program and host of the Vanilla JS Podcast.  Chris has created JavaScript plugins that have been used by organizations such as Apple and the Harvard Business School. He also publishes a developer tips newsletter which is read by more than 8,000 developers every weekday. In this episode, Phil and Chris Ferdinandi discuss how networking enables you to find out about roles that are not public knowledge yet. He shares a bad experience that taught him the need to be cautious at the interview stage, ask the right questions and get things in writing. They also talk about why communication is a vital skill and how sharing what you know brings benefits.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: (3.11) TOP CAREER TIP Meet as many people as you can and continue to network throughout your career. It is a great way to find out about roles before they are advertised. Networking will also help you to decide what you want to do next. At this stage, Chris explains the kind of questions he uses to help him to work out what skills to learn next. Questions that also enable him to further strengthen his network. (6.46) WORST CAREER MOMENT It took Chris 2 years to find his first developer job. He needed to be able to work remotely. At the interview, it was agreed they would talk about letting him do that. Yet, a few months later, they told him that it was not possible. Chris was deeply disappointed he had been misled and wasted months in a job that was not suitable for him. Naturally, he left. It taught him, to pay careful attention to what the hiring manager says. Now if something is really important to him, he gets it in writing. (11.55) CAREER HIGHLIGHT Speaking at the Artifact Conference in Texas is Chris´s career highlight, to date. He had been to the conference five years early but as an attendee. So, it felt amazing to get up on stage and speak there. (14.06) THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Chris thinks that new tools, techniques and native browser methods will make all kinds of things possible, in the relatively near future. An example of this is the ability to use virtual reality features in a web environment. (15.49) THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – The thrill of being able to take something from idea to something that works. What’s the best career advice you received? – Network. What’s the worst career advice you received? – You have to stay in a job for at least a year before you can leave. What would you do if you started your career now? – Chris would initially take some short courses. Then build something. If things went well, he would then invest more time and money into studying IT. What are your current career objectives? – As well as getting better at his job, Chris wants to expand the JavaScript education stuff he is currently doing. What’s your number one non-technical skill? – Communication. In the podcast, Chris demonstrates why it is a vital skill for any developer. How do you keep your own career energized? – Helping other people keeps Chris´s career energized. What do you do away from technology? – Chris likes playing Magic Gathering and is trying to get into Dungeons and Dragons. He also loves spending time outside. (21.01) FINAL CAREER TIP Share what you know. It does not matter how you do it. Just sitting down and explaining what you know to a colleague is enough for you to cement your knowledge and take things to the next level. BEST MOMENTS (3.20) – Chris - “Meet as many people as you can and continue to network throughout your career to land the best jobs.” (10.35) – Chris - “Before starting a job, get the important things in writing.” (16.30) – Chris - “As soon as you know a job is not a good fit, leave. Staying will not benefit you or the firm you are working for.” (21.20) – Chris - “The moment you really know how something works is when you´ve been able to explain it to someone.” (21.55) – Chris - “Teaching everything you know to as many people as possible will open new doors.” ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey. CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/philtechcareer LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Facebook: https://facebook.com/philtechcareer Instagram: https://instagram.com/philtechcareer Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast’s website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – CHRIS FERDINANDI Chris Ferdinandi is the author of the Vanilla JS Pocket Guide series, creator of the Vanilla JS Academy training program and host of the Vanilla JS Podcast.  Chris has created JavaScript plugins that have been used by organizations such as Apple and the Harvard Business School. He also publishes a developer tips newsletter which is read by more than 8,000 developers every weekday. CONTACT THE GUEST – CHRIS FERDINANDI Chris Ferdinandi can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChrisFerdinandi LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cferdinandi/ Website: https://gomakethings.com/ Career Guide: https://gomakethings.com/career-guide Career Resources: https://gomakethings.com/itcareerenergizer/

Published Sep 29, 2017 Chris: Hey world, Chris Hogan coming to you live from MeMedia Studio here in Burleigh Heads for 'Get Fact Up'. The new and improved version, delivering more content to you regularly, is in our vodcasting studio or podcasting studio. You can hire it out at Burleigh Heads as well, just enquire on our website. So here we are. Hanging on, Andrew? Andrew: Yeah, I'm good. Just had a double strength decaf. Chris: That did nothing. Andrew: Sorry, I was sitting on that one for a bit, sorry. Keep going. Chris: As you can see, we're keeping it light and humorous. So today we want to talk about the transition that's happening from broadcast, or traditional media, to online media. Basically, the millennials are moving away from traditional media and moving to social channels and whatnot for entertainment. Andrew: Well, the interesting thing about that is how we're delivering this today which, in my opinion, is shifting more towards live and daily content, and those sorts of things are happening on social. So what better way to deliver 'Get Fact Up' than through live video? Chris: Cool. Andrew: And that's what we're trying. Chris: So what are the channels that are actually performing best when it comes to live video? Andrew: Well, it's Facebook, YouTube, and then you've got other things like Instagram, which is obviously Facebook as well. It's like Facebook in your pocket, I guess you could say. And then, what else have you got? You've got Periscope. No one really uses Periscope. Chris: And also LinkedIn is coming out with their new update to allow you to shoot live video through their mobile app, and upload videos through the desktop. Andrew: Yep, LinkedIn always liked to party. But they're doing their thing. And then you've got things like Snapchat and all that, but from what I've heard, Snapchat's not gonna be around much longer. So let's not worry about that too much. Chris: Yeah, but those stories that are up there for 24 hours, they just aren't that interesting to anybody anymore. Especially the brands, I think, because ... Andrew: Yeah, it was a toy. People are getting past it. I don't know anyone that's really using Snapchat in that way anymore. And now there's also Instagram which has the same feature. Facebook has the same feature. It's really devalued that whole disposable story thing quite a bit. Chris: So with Facebook owning Instagram, we've seen a lot of changes in Instagram as well. They've actually brought in a lot of the features, their filters and all those overlays that Snapchat ... someone invented. And Facebook have kind of integrated those into both Facebook and Instagram. And Instagram have also updated their app, or their algorithm, to decrease the organic reach that people are getting to grow their channels. What problems does that present to newcomers to Instagram, do you think? Andrew: Well, I think when it went at a really saturated ... I don't want to call it a marketplace, because Instagram's not a marketplace. Chris: Channel. Andrew: It's a really saturated channel now. When I first started using Instagram and things like that, you could really grow a channel. You could easily get to two thousand followers, is that what we call them on Instagram? Yeah? Two thousand followers, just through organic means. Just through interacting with other people, and stuff like that. You just can't do it now. You don't get that sort of traction with posts and things like that anymore. You used to be able to put a post up and get two hundred likes, just by getting the right hashtag. That just doesn't happen now. You don't get that increase of followers, or that sort of thing. It's really just a feed now, and it's so saturated that if you're coming in with a unique idea, everyone is sort of doing that same thing. Everyone's coming in with a razor-sharp unique idea. You know, like the yoga paddle boarders and stuff like that. Everyone's coming in with something like that, it's just hypersaturation in there now. That's just how I feel about Instagram. Chris: We've talked about this many times, but I'm challenged by using Instagram due to the fact that when you're actually posting something, you can't actually put a link in the post, therefore not being able to redirect people off the channel onto your own. And here at MeMedia, we do a lot of content creation. We do a lot of marketing for clients. We call it integrated digital marketing. So essentially what we're doing is we're creating that content, we're using the social channels to distribute that content, and get traffic back to the website. That's an awesome indicator to Google to boost your SEO, boost your Google rankings. If you can't do that post on Instagram and actually put a link in the post and get the traffic to your website, the only way you can do that now is through using their advertising. Andrew: Using it in the profile, which is not helpful. Yeah. Chris: Or tell people to click on the link in the profile. Exactly. Not helpful. So to me, Instagram's not a great thing to use for SEO, for promoting people to come to your website, which is the media that you own. Obviously, when you're on these channels, you're only renting space. You know? And with Facebook updating algorithms, it's ... Andrew: You can't really turn that into leads, per se. You can use Instagram to get direct messages and stuff like that, but who wants to be walking around with their phone all the time replying to messages and things like that as a form of inquiry? You can't get calls and things off Instagram the way you can, unless you're doing ads and things. It's not getting it back to your website. Not in a meaningful way, anyway. Chris: They're actually using ads. Andrew: But it is a brand tool. And the people that do it well, the industries that do it well, things like cafes and clothing and things like that. But you know, they're getting their brand out there, and people see this, and they're like "I want that," and then they can go and find it. That doesn't work for everyone, that sort of effect on brand awareness doesn't work for everyone. You can't see a picture on Instagram of, for example, laser eye surgery, and think "that looks good. I'll just go and get that today." It doesn't work for everyone. Chris: So let's talk about what's happening with the aspirational youth and the Gen X, Y, Z. Basically, how they're becoming disengaged with traditional advertising. 99% of millennials are actually disengaged with traditional advertising. So trying to replicate traditional advertising methods on social channels isn't really that effective. Given that 55% of people watch videos online every day, there is this huge, I guess, shift from everyone to produce videos. Once again, they're trying to take that traditional ad that they've done previously ... Andrew: Ah, we're talking about traditional media, yeah. Chris: Yeah. They've done in traditional media ... Andrew: They're failing so hard. It's like they're jumping on these social channels and they're like "Great. So we use the TV formula on social media." And everyone goes, "I don't want to watch TV on Facebook. Goodbye." Or "I don't want to watch TV ads on Facebook, see you later." Chris: I don't even want to watch ads! Andrew: Well, yeah. And that's the thing. You have to be very creative with these new formats now. You have to really think around, okay, the people that are watching these formats, they're escaping TV. So if we come at them with ads, they're not gonna react well to it. Because they're ignoring TV and they're going to Facebook or Instagram or YouTube or something like that. Last thing they want is TV ads coming at them, because that's what they've come from. Chris: So yeah, cutting to that "Proudly brought to you by your sponsor, let's listen to a message from our sponsors," all of that type of messaging just isn't gonna work. And the reason why we're focused on millennials and these aspirational youth is because the global workforce by 2025 is gonna have 8% baby boomers, 28% Gen X, 33% Gen Y, and 31% Gen Z. So that's our audience. Andrew: It's all social media generations now, from here on in. Chris: Absolutely. Andrew: They're not going to react to a straight up sponsorship message, or a straight up advert. But the thing that's happening now is like these online sponsorship messages that happen in podcasts and things, where they just say "hey look, our podcast is funded by Rode Microphones or something like that." And people expect that. They know that you have to be able to make money out of these things. Chris: That's right. Then it comes down to authenticity. And one thing that you'll notice when you, or that we definitely notice, is that with advertising that's used in podcasts, the host of the show is actually delivering the message from their point of view. So like Andrew just said, we are proudly brought to you by one of our sponsors, Rode Microphones. And this kit is Rode Microphones kit. And it's bloody awesome! So we can actually say that, because we've used the product. Andrew: And we're literally using it right now. Chris: That's right. And just out of nowhere, we actually have extra kit if you want to do more podcast from this studio and have more people sitting at this table. So where to now? We're seeing these massive shifts to video, massive shift to live video, and what do we want to see when we're doing that? What are some of the ... we want to see reach, we want to see video views, and we want to see engagement. Andrew: The funny thing there is where it comes back to promotion. So we already know that people like live video. But you don't get an awful lot of rich engagement when the live video's happening. So with everything, eventually, it inevitably comes down to the paid promotion. Facebook used to be great. You put something on your Facebook page, or your Facebook page, followers saw it. Now, what percentage is it now? Chris: One? Andrew: It's like 1%? Chris: Organic, yeah. 1% organic. Andrew: That's so weak. So all of these new formats, they're great while they're happening and people think they're exciting, but then it becomes commonplace, and we need to look at the promotion side of things. And that's where it's a real problem. The two big contenders right now are YouTube and Facebook for the live video, and both of them had terrible paid promotion. It doesn't even exist, really. They both kind of, in their help, I'll just bring it up now. YouTube, for example, says during your event, yeah, you can create a highlight clip after your event. Or before your event get your followers excited, etc. But there's nothing for promotion of a live stream. I think you said Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg mentioned something at their F8 conference? Chris: Don't quote me on this, but it is a rumour that promotion of live video during the live stream is going to be available sometime in the not too distant future. There's a whole realm of issues that could present. Andrew: Yeah! Like, obviously it needs to happen because it's what people are getting excited about. It's where they're moving, so we have to be able to promote it. But what happens then? Because Facebook are kind of liable. They review ads, so we put like 200 ads up and they'll go through them and sixty might get through because of various reasons. How do they monitor the live video? So if someone says "I'm gonna do a video about this," but then it's about something else and it offends everyone, it looks bad for, say, Facebook or YouTube, so. Chris: Well that's where I think their feature that they've got now for videos that are uploaded is that they do have the ability for Facebook to process your captions. So for those that don't know, captions mean subtitles that appear at the bottom. That's pretty amazing technology. Obviously, that's done by a machine. And it's not 100% accurate, in fact it needs a lot of work. But if they have the ability to do that live, then potentially they can kick out those profanities and ... Andrew: Flagging things, and then someone comes in and manually watches it. Because Facebook already do that. What I've had explained to me by someone that does the forums on Facebook, there's an automatic review process, and that's what determines if your ads go live or not. And then if things get flagged, someone manually reviews it, so it's like a two step process. I think it'll be something like that. They're looking for profanity or things like that, and then someone will come in and check out that stream, maybe they check what the reactions are because people can react as they go, they can say "Like this, hate this." Maybe if it's too many people disliking it or having negative reactions, then someone jumps in. They'll have to find a solution around that if they want to monetise it, but they will monetise it because they love, especially Facebook, love monetising things. Chris: Of course, of course they do. Andrew: YouTube I'm not sure exactly how they're gonna do it. Chris: One of the most amazing things is, when we're actually creating content for our clients, is the reach and engagement that we get, and the video views that we're getting for our clients here at MeMedia. But one thing that's been amazing, and that's in a new venture that we've co-founded with two other directors, Leigh Kelson and Scott Burke, for Beach City, is amazing reach. Which is 1.8 million reach, 434,000 video views, and 109,000 post engagements on those videos. Andrew: And that's mostly with live video? Chris: Yes. All live video. Truly spectacular engagement, and that's the key metric that we're looking at there. Supposedly, 10% is excellent engagement, and we're actually getting over 20%. Given the multitude of places where we can post video, which we spoke about before, Facebook's an awesome place to get reach and engagement. People are spending less time actually viewing the videos on Facebook than they are on YouTube. Andrew: Definitely, significantly less. But YouTube's a video platform, so people are expecting it. There's still this sort of interrupted feeling for the live video on Facebook, because you get that notification saying "so-and-so's live." Some people just don't react so well to it. Some people are into it. Facebook's a feed of the content you're interested in there. So sometimes, "so-and-so's live" could be disruptive to someone just wanting to look at memes or something like that. But YouTube? Definitely, people are ready for live video on YouTube. Chris: There's a huge reason to post on YouTube, as we've discussed many times, and the reason why we post on YouTube is that obviously, Google doesn't crawl through Facebook's content to list it in the search engine results pages, which is the Google listings when you do a search. Whereas when you do post on YouTube, then there's an opportunity for those videos to appear in the search. Andrew: And that's something we often say to clients, it's like if you can't get a page rank for something because your competitors have great content for something, do they have videos? Probably not. Google's gonna favour videos, because they own YouTube. So that's a good way to sneak past. It's always a good reason to be putting videos on YouTube. Chris: And there's so many different ways you can create videos, whether it's slideshows or chats or podcasts. Andrew: Exactly. The other thing that's good about YouTube is it's always been a video platform, so it's more like a library than Facebook. Facebook's a feed, so things get lost if you post a lot. Things'll just disappear back. And people don't really go backwards through your feed too much. They might see something they like, and then they'll think "okay, let's look at old videos." It's not as easy to do with Facebook, but if someone sees something they like on YouTube, they can subscribe to you. They can get all your new videos. They can look at all your archived videos. It's a lot more organised for that sort of thing. But, the connectivity of people's not there on YouTube. Chris: No, that's right. Because I mean, there's just not as many people there. With Facebook having two billion plus monthly users ... Andrew: Yes. Let's bring that up. Chris: Over two billion monthly active Facebook users, with ages 25 to 34 making up 29% of those users worldwide. Andrew: Yeah, so this is all the people we're talking about. They're Gen Y, X, and millennials. They're all there, and they're online all the time. Something like 28 times a day someone checks their Facebook, on average. Chris: Of course. Andrew: In these generations. Chris: We're highly addicted beings and we really had no chance when the smartphone came around, to not be addicted according to Simon Sinek, the famous author. Some other stats. Like we said, the decline of broadcast TV. 24% decline in live TV for 18 to 24 year olds since 2016. There's a clear shift to social. There's a clear shift to YouTube. There's a clear shift to online. There's a clear shift in your very home, watching multi devices being used in the same room while the TV is still on, but just playing some average stuff in the background, to put it nicely. Andrew: That's, yeah. That's on a timeline that you can't really control. Chris: Yeah, so everything's on demand. 65% of global media consumers choose video on demand. Far out. Andrew: We're not even considering things like Netflix, the actual streaming TV services. Half the time when someone's saying TV, they actually mean Netflix. "I watched TV last night." They watched Netflix last night. That's another thing. But I suppose what we're getting at here about all this shift is what can you do about it? How can you leverage this from a marketing perspective? And that's where it gets interesting, because everyone's still trying to figure it out. How does this work? We're still trying to figure it out. And we're finding things that work, but how far can you push that before people start to get annoyed because you're in their personal downtime? If you're annoying someone on Facebook, you're in their downtime and people don't like being annoyed in their downtime. That's where it's leading edge right now, we're trying to figure out how to make this work. But the thing is, the big difference between traditional media and this new type of media like Facebook and YouTube and all this live video stuff is, you've got analytics, you've got metrics, so you can actually see the data behind this. You can see publicly accessible data about what people are reacting to, the results you're getting, and all that sort of thing. You're never gonna get that with TV. If you approach a TV channel and say "I want to put ads up," they'll tell you "You're gonna get so-and-so people, this many people watching it today." Chris: This is what our reach is per month and how many people we're reaching, this demographic. But you don't actually know what your specific ad or mention in the show, how many eyeballs it hit and how many people actually liked it. Andrew: And even if a TV's on, if there's a TV on and there's a family of five watching the TV, four of those people are on Facebook at any given time. So they can't really prove that. You see those, cinema advertising, which is probably even a step down from TV. You're watching a movie and it says "Cinema advertising works!" And you'll be the only person in the cinema. There's something wrong there. How can they prove any of this anymore? Chris: So clearly we've got a shift to social media, online media, and on-demand media. And we can actually give valuable ROI in terms of statistics and metrics of who viewed your particular piece of content, brand, you know, ad. So there's no time like the present, obviously, to make these shifts. And there's plenty other ways that are happening right here right now that ... you know, like, influencing marketing is another way to ... Andrew: Ah yeah, that's a mince higher with your podcast. Chris: Yep. I think we're gonna have to talk about that another time. So thanks very much for listening. Like we said, we hope you like Get Fact Up. The new way we're delivering, it somewhat helps our production time, helps us produce more content, and you can hire this studio too. Simply inquire on memedia.com.au. Thanks, and thanks to Rode Microphones for helping deliver this vodcast.

Best Drone Conferences for Commercial Drone Operators Today's show is about drone conferences to attend in 2020. Can attending a drone conference help a commercial drone pilot further his/her drone business? Our caller for today, Chris is an experienced drone mapper. Chris is planning on attending a drone conference in 2020. Which drone conference will be the most beneficial for Chris? As you might know, attending a drone conference is prohibitively expensive. So, it is important to do your research and pick the right drone conference so that you get your money's worth. In today's show, you will get a first-hand account of our experience at drone conferences like DJI Airworks, FAA Symposium, Commercial UAV Expo, Interdrone and many, many more...If you are a drone mapper like Chris, which drone conference should you attend? Tune in to find out. Thanks for the great question, Chris! Fly Safe! Do not forget to sign up for the Drone U Giveaway! We are offering some unique and amazing prizes worth a cool $9,000! What are you waiting for? Sign up now! Do you wish to learn from world-class pilots with real world experience? This could be your chance. The Drone U Fly-in Challenge will be held from April 4-5 in Santa Fe, New Mexico. These unique drone games are designed to test your flying ability as you will be asked to complete carefully designed flight missions that mimic real-world scenarios. Don't miss the chance to participate in the BIGGEST and BEST drone event of the year. Limited Spots Available! Book Now! Recently crashed your drone? Unable to find trained technicians who can repair your drone quickly and at a reasonable rate? Don’t fret. The cool folks at Fortress UAV can help you get your drone back up in the air in as little as 7 days! Use Promo Code “DroneU” to get 25% off. Drone U Members get an extra 5% off on total repair costs. Check them out now! Make sure to get yourself the all-new Drone U landing pad! Get your questions answered: https://thedroneu.com/. If you enjoy the show, the #1 thing you can do to help us out is to subscribe to it on iTunes. Can we ask you to do that for us real quick? While you're there, leave us a 5-star review, if you're inclined to do so. Thanks! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ask-drone-u/id967352832. Become a Drone U Member. Access to over 30 courses, great resources, and our incredible community. Looking for simple, fast, and transparent coverage that gives you peace of mind? Our friends at Skywatch are offering affordable on-demand drone insurance that rewards YOU for flying safely. Check them out NOW! Both hourly and monthly options available. Follow us:Site - https://thedroneu.com/Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/droneuInstagram - https://instagram.com/thedroneu/Twitter - https://twitter.com/thedroneuYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/droneu Get your copy of “Livin’ the Drone Life” – http://amzn.to/2nalUDHGet your copy of our Part 107 Study Guide – https://amzn.to/2omQatT/Check out our upcoming Mapping Classes – https://thedroneu.clickfunnels.com/drone-u-mapping-classes-2019 Timestamps This show is brought to you by the Drone U Fly-In Today's question is about drone conferences Should you consider attending DJI Airworks? Paul shares his experience? Will going to a drone conference help your business? Should you attend CES 2020? Which is the best conference for drone mapping professionals? Paul reveals why he is planning on attending the DroneDeploy Conference Is the FAA Symposium the best conference for drone service providers? Is the CommercialUAV Expo a good drone conference? We share our experience Will attending film festivals help those in aerial cinematography and videography? Will attending local conferences help you and your business? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR56F-qCZos&feature=youtu.be

Today, we continue the conversation with a man who at 22, saw his chance for wealth and jumped at it. Investing his first $35,000 in a property that became $3.5M 9 years later w multiple properties, he did what any other logical 31yr old would do – he retired! Well, sort of.Chris Gray laughs that his friends think all he does is get on super yachts and take lavish vacations while his wife thinks he needs to slow it down with his countless hours in his Buyer’s Agent business ‘Your Empire’, being a regular columnist for the mainstream media, and his regular stint on the Sky News Business Show “Your Property Empire” – this accountant by trade has decided to turn the emotions of buying property into a spreadsheet that has his clients winning – a lot! Welcome Chris to our community of dreamers who are definitely looking for ways to fund their dream life…The Goods on Chris:As an investment property expert, I teach people how to create wealth and improve their work/life balance through investment property. Many people work hard to pay off their home, or perhaps have just one investment property. I seek to change conventional thinking—and to teach people how to better leverage their income & equity to provide cash flow for their lifestyle. My strategies are easy-to-understand, but incredibly powerful and life-changing for anyone willing to take action. For instance, instead of working overtime, how about leveraging your equity to buy an investment property, and using the rental income to supplement your working income? You could then buy another investment property and switch to part-time work.My expertise has come from a mix of experience. I am a professional investor, qualified accountant, buyers’ agent & mortgage broker, all of which have contributed to my success in property. But more importantly, I am passionate and have funded my own lifestyle with investment property income for over 15 years. I began property investing at 22 with only $35,000, & turned that into a $3.5m portfolio in less than 9 years. This allowed me to retire from full time work at 31. My portfolio is now in excess of $15m & continues to grow. I am also the CEO of Your Empire, an independent property consultancy that builds investment property portfolios for time-poor professionals. In my earlier days, I personally taught clients how to create wealth & lifestyle options through investment property. I now better leverage my time by providing advice & strategies regularly through my TV appearances, keynote speaking, my books & the general media. You can also see me at 6.30pm Monday nights hosting Your Property Empire on Sky News Business Channel.Contact Chris: Website: www.yourempire.com.au Twitter: @chrisgrayempire Go to http://www.bit.ly/thenatandsarahshow to catch this week’s livestream!

Sometimes, my Special Sauce interviews are the best way to catch up with old friends and colleagues. I was reminded of that when Chris Ying and Ivan Orkin, co-authors of The Gaijin Cookbook: Japanese Recipes from a Chef, Father, Eater, and Lifelong Outsider, walked into the studio. The first thing you have to know about Ivan and Chris is that they are great company. The second is that, since they've worked together for long enough that they've established an easy rapport, one that comes through in every one of their exchanges. Consider this snippet of our conversation, when we on what role cleaning plays in becoming a chef or cook in a restaurant. Ivan: I was a dishwasher. Chris: As all good cooks should start. Ivan: I agree. If you don't know how to clean, then you can't cook. Chris: If you don't love cleaning... Ivan: I have to say, that as I become a better cook I've learned to actually love cleaning. I mean, when I cook, man, you should see it. I mean it is sparkly...When I talk to a young cook it's always, "Look, I promise you, when you hit that point when you can have your station be clean, you'll know that you're a good cook, because what happens is if your station is messy you can't see what you're doing and you lose track." When I was leading the kitchen, I'd say, "Everybody stop. Nobody cooks. We clean now for five minutes. Everybody straightens, refills, get it all together. Everything gets wiped down. Wash your hands. Everything gets set. It's in moments like this one where you can see why both Ivan Ramen: Love, Obsession, and Recipes from Tokyo's Most Unlikely Noodle Joint and Gaijin Cookbook are compelling reads, even as they are also wonderful cookbooks. I want to note, too, that this episode also features advice from both J. Kenji Lopez-Alt, who answers a pressing culinary question about what it means to marinate something "overnight," which was submitted to the digital mailbag by Camille Germany. And then, with Thanksgiving just around the corner, I thought it would be fun to check in with Daniel Gritzer about the art and science of gravy. 
 To hear how you can get your gravy right this year, how long you should really be marinating meat, and the first part of my conversation with Ivan Orkin and Chris Ying, you're going to have to give this episode a listen. It will be time well spent, I can promise you that. --- The full transcript for this episode can be found over here at Serious Eats: https://www.seriouseats.com/2019/11/special-sauce-ivan-orkin-and-chris-ying-on-the-gaijin-cookbook.html

Download this Episode We've all been there on our real estate path. Today we discuss the difference between calling ourselves a professional and actually being a professional. reThink Real Estate Podcast Trannscription Audio length 28:02 RTRE 63 – Being a Pro vs. Saying You're a Pro [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris Lazarus here. Here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Nate you've got a bone to pick with some people. What's going on dude? [Nathan]: I mean call it a bone or not. But so I was just recently on a trip with some buddies of mine. And I was ranting. Or we were individually ranting I should say, about our industries that we respectively work in. And of course I got some puzzled looks and different things and, you know, about my rants. And ironically enough, one of the guys on the trip called me the day after we got back.  And he says “I have new respect for what you were talking about.” I said “What do you mean?” He says “Listen, you know, my…my aunt, you know, she…she passed away and…and one of my family members is selling her house. And the agent that my aunt hired said ”Listen I don't really want you telling anybody that somebody passed away in the home. Yada yada yada.”” The agent responded with “Trust me this is what I do for a living.” My friend then said “Please ask me how many houses has she sold.” I said “Well Larry how many houses as she sold?” He said zero. And he said “I totally get it.” He said this individual, you know, is making it appear I guess if you would, that they're an expert in our industry and, you know, what we do, but they've not sold a home. They have a license. Right. They're a realtor. Right. But they've done zero business. So again there…there is there's some delineation here between who's an agent who is a licensee. Right. And I get it. Just wound up. I mean I get it, you know, but I don't I also don't get it. I was taught “Fake it til you make it.” When I started. And I don't…I don't think that's the way to go. I think there's a lot of other paths to go through education and training and certain things, that I believe, you know, yourself and Christian both provide. But what would you two tell an agent in this situation? Right. [Chris]: Oh I wouldn't say…I would tell the agent “Look don't tell people this is what you do for a living until you actually make a living off of it.” [Nathan]: Christian? [Christian]: I mean my whole thing…because I was kind of taught same thing. Kind of “Fake it til you make it. Yo here's some scripts to make it sound like, you know, what you're talking about that you don't.” What I tell my new agents is like, you know, “Don't…don't come out and say “Hey I'm brand new. I don't know what I'm doing.” But positioning in such a way where you're saying “Hey, you know, I'm working closely with my designated broker. If I don't have the answer I can get it. You're getting two for the price of one. It's not just new agent flailing out there trying to pretend like they know what they're doing.”” So, you know, essentially don't lie but also don't come straight out say “Hey I don't know what I'm doing and I have no confidence. You know, I'm probably gonna [censored] up and [censored] over your listing, you know, I'm a seller.” But at the same time don't…you merely like you yeah you have all experienced in the world when you don't. because it's not hard to find out information about how experienced or how long an agent's been licensed. [Chris]: Doesn't even require an open records request. You can just look it on Zillow. [Christian]: Yeah I mean and…and…and that's it. And it may not be the case with every real estate firm. But for us, you know, we closely work with our new agents to make sure they're providing the best experience. They know what they're doing. They're not, you know, floundering, you know. And I know business brokerages are supposed to do that. [Chris]:Floundering. Like flopping around flopping around [laughter].  [Christian]: Yeah flopping around the land.  [Nathan]: Like a fish out of water is what it looks like. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: It's hard…it's hard for a new agent to mask that when, you know, you don't really know how the process works, and you don't really know the direction you're supposed to be going and what you're supposed to be saying to your client, you know. [Nathan]: Wouldn't this be an interesting industry change if you had to have some intern or externship with so many transactions under your belt before you were to able to go out and represent a buyer or seller? [Chris]: That makes sense. That's what we do for new agents. They have to have six transactions under their belt before the training wheels come off. At a minimum. And for the first six transactions they're heavily mentored through them. So they're…they're not alone. They have people like their first deals they've got a mentor that's going out. And…and working with them. Teaching them how to do the consults for the buyers. And for the listing consult. So that by the time that agent gets ready to go out and be on their own, they generally have a great idea of what they're doing. [Christian]: Yeah well that's a great way to do it. I mean I love how you formalize that. Obviously that takes, you know, a brokerage's,  you know, certain amount of experienced agents and size. And, you know… [Chris]: Yeah I'll let you know when we get at that level too. [laughter] [Christian]: It is a structure. Because you could say technically the industry requires it. but, you know, when the laws basically says, you know, “Additional designated broker oversight for the first two years” like that's really loose. And it's not, you know, it's not really…there's not really a standard for that. Even though technically new agents are supposed to be more heavily monitored. There's no…there's nothing in place a, you know, firm to firm, insuring that happens. [Chris]: Yeah I mean there…I was talking to somebody the other day he was telling me about a person who's making a switch from another firm. And this person was also a recruiter. And he was like “Yeah this person brought about a hundred and forty people over to the brokerage. And about a hundred and twenty of them left.” And I'm like “What?!” Like I don't even want to turn that number. Like I'll bring ten and one will leave. Like I'm not gonna turn a hundred and forty people to get twenty.  It's just ridiculous the lack of oversight that some of these brokerages put into actual retention and training and development. It's literally taking the pickle, throwing it at the wall and seeing which one sticks. [Christian]: Sure. Well I mean and it's well-known, and I've been saying this for years. You know, like most firms, you know, most of the industry is just focus on numbers. Like all we want is people in the seats. Licensed agents, you know. We're not really concerned about retention and training and empowering because there's gonna be, you know, a dozen new agents with, you know, dollar signs in their eyes waiting to take their spots. You know, when…when they fail. [Nathan]: It will be like “Oh let's look at our checklist. You have a license. Check. You have a pulse. Check. Oh yeah good. You can…you can join us.” And uh, you know, I often get the question “Hey what…what led to your success as an agent?” I don't want to call myself successful but I do well. And I know what I'm doing now. And I think a huge part of it and I will I will tap the shoulder if you would of the team lead, Tim Reel [phonetics], that I had at Keller Williams when I started, is…is that I…part of it… Let me rephrase this. I viewed it as an internship. Right. I knew I was gonna pay a steep cut on my team splits. And KW split. But I also knew I was gonna get an education. And I wasn't standing alone. I wasn't by myself. And I was constantly getting feedback or more importantly I was getting mentorship. I think that's what a lot of people want. And…and that helped me. And then when I did want to go out and do my own thing and kind of stand on my own feet as a solo agent, I had the capability to do that. So, you know, that's always been my win at KW. Don't…you're not a technology company. You're a training company. KW gave me some great bones. You gave me a great foundation. So any agent that is potentially listening to this, that's struggling or is thinking about coming an agent, I would tell “You…you want to do well? Go be on a team. Go…go learn.” I don't…I don't, you know, that's just me.  [Christian]: And I say you're pretty fortunate because, you know, I've heard, you know, I've heard many things as far as, you know, people kind of getting on team. I mean KW is kind of what they're known for. You know. But it's a…it could be very hit and miss. Because, you know… [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I mean you could be, you know, you can be fortunate where the team lead is actually interested in mentoring and training, in empowering their team members. But I've also seen people that, you know, get on teams and all this is a call center. And they were promised “Hey we're gonna train you. We're gonna teach you this stuff.” And they're not learning anything except for making sales calls and scripts. You know, it could be very…very hit and miss, as far as the team structure goes and the attitude of the leadership. [Nathan]: Same as I tell a potential client. Interview realtors. I tell a potential realtor and if you have a lot of teams. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Interview teams. Interview brokers. Interview office staff. Interview whoever you can. I mean… [Nathan]: Interview your clients. You don't necessarily want all your clients that come to you.  [Chris]: No stay away from my clients. You're another agent. I don't want you talking to them. [laughter] [Christian]: Yeah I am gonna interview your clients. [Chris]: So…but this is…this brings us back to like a great point. Right. Because you've got three types of agents. You've got the full time agents. Right. These are the people that are in here all the time. These are the people that this is how we make a living. Then you have the part-time agents which I don't have an issue with part-time agents. Part-time agents they're putting in the hours. They may not be in at 40, 60, 80 hours a week. But they're in it 10, 20, 30 hours a week. And that's enough so that they generally understand what's happening in the industry. And they're able to build and maintain a client base and, you know, do a few deals every year. Then you've got the problem. The last type of agent it's the sometime agent. The agent that hangs their license. They're just a licensee. They're not in it full-time. They've got another job and they'll sell a house whenever their family member comes to them and says “Hey, you know, you're a real estate agent right?” “Yeah. Yeah I am.” And they're really not. And they…they don't fully understand what's going on. And when they take a deal that's when things go sideways. So I think the clarification is what kind of agent do you want to be? If you're…if you're coming into the industry are you going to be a sometime agent? Or are you gonna be a part-time agent? Because if you're…if you're just dipping your toe in the water and this is new for you, you have to be a part-time agent. If you're anything less than that you're never gonna learn enough to be successful. You know what? You know what? We can just steal from the Game of Thrones on that. Because, you know what we say, to us sometimes agent…not today. [Christian]: Not today.  [Nathan]: Not today. [Christian]: What I was gonna say so…so that's as we jumped into this, you guys are like “Hey let' talk about this thing.” “I don't know what you're talking about.” So…so we talked about licensee versus an agent that's [crosstalk]. That's what you mean? [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I got you. I think… [Nathan]: I think I've told the story once. I insulted a woman. She's…we were having a conversation. [Christian]: You insulted someone? No way. [Nathan]: Yes. And she said something like “Oh you're real estate agent?” And I said “Yeah.” And she said “Me too.” And I was like “Great. How many houses did you sell last year?” And she's like “Four.” And I was like “You're not an agent.” She got all upset. I was like…what…like…I don't know. [Christian]: You have a way with words Nathan.  [Nathan]: Like I mean it is what it is. I mean I…yeah that's right. But there needs to be so many changes in our industry. And, you know, again we can talk about the barrier and entry. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about two things on this episode, I guess. If we want to just get going and keep going.  [Chris]: Well let's keep going. [Christian]: But before we get away can I say something? [Nathan]: Go. Get away.  [Christian]: Get away. So to your point Chris about the licensee versus an agent and the three types of agents, and it's interesting. It seems like there's so many new agents that get into it just to be a licensee. It's basically like “Hey I can make, you know, a lot of money just, you know, accidentally selling a house now and then, to…to a friends.” So they're not invested in learning or building a career. They're kind of testing the waters. And memorably they fail and realize, you know, usually it's too late. “Hey this actually cost me a lot of money and I'm not really willing to put in the time. And real estate doesn't work”. You know. [Chris]: It's…it's like people come in here and, you know, you can go and get a real estate license and you can go and sell your own home and you can buy your next home and you can earn a commission. Great. Yeah it offsets your down payment.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you factor in that you do that once every ten years and it's…it's really not worth your time.  [Christian]: Right. Well I like your distinction between basically, you know, the part-time, who is still again with the time they have, they're investing and learning. Versus the “I'm just sitting here with my license doing other stuff until something comes my way. And then I flattened my way through it.” And because I think it's a big difference. I think a lot of people in the industry inflate the two.  Like I was having a conversation the other day with, you know, some agents from another indie brokerage here in town. And I love that brokerage but they're very…very high standards on who they'll accept. Like if three times a week there or you're gone. You know, you have certain production what are you gone. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: I think that's great but that means… [Chris]: I wish more brokers did that. [Christian]: But that means that they don't do part-time agents. And, you know, this particular agent I was talking to, was basically cuckooing part-time agents. I was like listen “The people that can do it full-time like you you're basically taking it elitist stance, because people have kids or they have other jobs or, you know, it's just not the priority in life to spend 80 hours a week trying to make real estate work.” And I think there's room for that because just because you're part time doesn't necessarily mean you're inept. Or, you know, don't know how to do real estate. It just made you're focusing on other things. You know. [Chris]: Wait really? Because I thought whatever my preconceived notions were, we're correct. [Christian]: But I'm saying I think there's a difference. Because part time agents can invest in their training and knowledge and experience just as much as a full time. But that's a lot different than someone who just is seating on the sidelines waiting for real estate to come to them. [Chris]: As long as they're putting in the hours. And…and it's actually interesting that you bring that up. Because there was a study done by a university talking about entrepreneurship and going and creating your own self-employed income. And the success rates. And somebody who does it part-time at first, believe it or not has a thirty percent greater chance of success rate, long term. Than somebody who just dives in off the deep end full-time. So you can have somebody who's coming in part-time 20 hours a week and as long as they're working those 20 hours there's a greater chance of success that that person is going to be a long-term successful real estate agent. Then somebody who comes in off the bat, full time and has one way to go. [Christian]: What…it's interesting. Is that because they're runways longer because they have a supplemental income. Or something as opposed to… [Chris]: Yeah. The caveat with this is that those people are actually putting in the work. Right. They're working 20, 30 hours a week.  [Christian]: Sure. Right. They're not sitting around at their home office watching Netflix and occasionally making a call or something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Well I mean aren't there plenty of full-time agents who work a lot of part-time hours? [Christian]: That's true. That's a good distinction. They usually don't make it either. [laughter] [Nathan]: I mean I know plenty of full-time agent, who I mean it's like “[censored] if you're full-time than you suck.” [laughter] I mean it's because you look at their sales history. Like great you sold six houses last year. But you're full-time. And then there's the part-time agent who sells twenty five a year. Right. So… [Christian]: Again that comes down to your hustle and your focus. Because I've seen full-time agent that, you know, that are there full-time, but they're mentally…they're all over the place. [Nathan]: Yeah right. So I, you know, I don't like to get into this, you know, “O you're full-time, part-time.” Again sales cure is all, where I come from. And if you have a history you have a history. That's what I…that's what I like to look at is, you know, it's what matters. If somebody says “Well I'm a full-time agent.” Well great you'd be a full-time agent with [censored] sales. Right. I mean that's easy. And so I'd rather say Hey you're an agent with a great history.” That…to me is important. That's where we can delineate the that whole thing.  Is…let's not get into full-time, part-time. Yeah, the sometime, I don't want to get around. But let's just get into “Hey what did you…” I tell them “What did you sell?” Ask them what did they sell last year. What they do. Which may be and, you know, part of this I wanted to ask in this kind of segues into the other side of this, is does area specialization in a normal market, like where I'm at, in Columbus, does that matter anymore due to the amount of data that is available? My argument would be “No it doesn't matter.” [Chris]: I would argue you, against that.  [Nathan]: I figured you would. Yeah Christian too. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Nathan]: But that's just me. So… [Chris]: And I think it comes down to the level of service that somebody wants to bring. If…if you have like three agents going up against one neighborhood, and one agent knows everything about the neighborhood, all the history. Everything that has taken place there. Everything that's going in. All the development that…that's happening. Then that agent can sell not only the house but also the story.  And if you could sell the story, you know, that…that's the best way to market right now. Whereas if you have two other agents that don't know that info, then they're just…they're either competing on price or they're competing on marketing ability. [Nathan]: All right go back in there. There's an agent you left out of this. What about the agent that has the capability to use their commission as leverage on a deal? That's not in the area. [Christian]: I mean I think it… [Chris]: Where would he use that laverage? [Nathan]: Towards closing costs. Say…saying…because in our market you can do that. Right. Say…say I specialize in Dublin. Right. Ohio. But I want to go to…I got a client who want…your potential client who's interested in buying in New Albany, that yeah I've done deals over there. But I'm competing against a New Albany realtor. And…and I can offer…say Christian's my buyer. I can incentivize him to use me because I can say “Hey you're gonna buy $500,000 home. You know what I'll do? I'll take three thousand dollars on my commission and credit that to you towards closing cost and pre-paids and closing cost.” Now in a competitive market I'm gonna choose the agent that's got leeway to give me something. Or that could bridge appraisal, help with closing cost or something like that. Over somebody who says “Oh I specialize in an area.” That's just me and my train of thought. [Christian]: I mean the specializing in an area, I…I'd say the value really depends on which side you're on. Like…like when I'm on the listing side I think it like I specialize in West Seattle. But I do other areas of Seattle in the suburbs. Like I remember specifically like I helped a military friend of mine sell this place and well the suburbs here.  Now I didn't…I've never sold a house in that area. And so one of the questions I had to ask is like “Hey tell me about your neighborhood.” Like “There's a main…there's a main road going through here. Our house is on this side of it. A lot different than this side.” Because I can look at the numbers all day long but as the stats don't tell me, you know, why people move to this area. Or what the demographics are. Or who the ideal buyer is gonna be.  You know, so you've got to do a lot more digging and you actually know the area for that. And on the buyer side I don't think that's as important. I mean it can be. You can leverage it. but, you know, you're not really…I think it's more important on the seller side. Because you're gonna use that information, that knowledge of the neighborhood to target that ideal buyer.  [Chris]: And I think… [Christian]: What to focus on. [Chris]: Yeah and Nate to your point, I think you're you're kind of comparing apples to oranges right now. Because you're…you're talking about two completely different value propositions. That the agents can base on. And, you know, all of them work. Right. There's a million different value propositions on how you can build your business. Whether you specialize in historic or new construction or this one area or whatever it might be. Or you…you leverage some of your commission income to incentivize, you know, the client base.  You know, you can pay. It's one way or another. If you want to take some of your commission and do that on the back end through a rebate, you know, who am I to judge? All of them work. They're all different business models. And I don't call one discount versus one traditional. They're just different business models. It just depends on what's right for the individual agent. And what's right for the individual agent has to line up with the broker that they're with. Because not all brokers will allow their agents to do a commission rebate. Or to donate some towards closing costs. Whatever that might be. But it has to…like they all work. Like one agent may have a value proposition. And their proposition may be “I know everything about this area. Use me because I'm gonna make sure you're fully informed.” And then another agent may say “Well we're not as familiar with the area but we'll make sure that you have this financial instead of…” And then it's just up to the buyer. Right. The buyer may want money or they we may want their choice to be 100%. So it can go either way. [Christian]: And I'd say I mean you can't you can kind of think about in terms of like your commission is one of the terms of the contract. And so it's something that you could leverage just like you can any other terms, you know. That's something that you directly have control over versus, you know, the buyer. But, you know, options. [Nathan]: Right. Just curious. I mean you see it often. I mean…and I've done it. but, you know, we'll waive appraisal. And, you know, I will use my commission as a bridge in case that commits…that appraisal comes in short. And I've had plenty of times. It never has. We've been fine. I've had times where it comes in short and hey that's fine too. Again it's…it's as much for the seller when I represent a buyer to offer, you know, to say “Hey I'm willing to use my commission as a bridge in case it doesn't.” Because then they know they'll, you know, they'll get that money. So… [Chris]: I think that that's something to be careful about. So you're… you're very well versed in that Nate. But for your average agent, like if they're going into putting their livelihood on the line, like they got…they're gambling on themselves. [Nathan]: Yeah they are. [Chris]: And…and that's what you're doing. And you're good. And I would probably gamble on myself if I had to take the bet. [Nathan]: I like it. [Chris]: But I think that there's a lot of agents that for general advice…Don't do that well.  [Nathan]: Yes. You also…you got to remember I am fair. I keep 100% of my commission. Truly 100%. Right. So, you know, I don't have a split. So you got to think on a normal agents, say they're on a 60/40 split, you know, they're already taking a hit. Right. So they're potentially gonna take a bigger hit? Like, you know, they do have to be cautious. I…I have a little…I have a lot more leeway. Let's be honest. But… [Christian]: Sure. Not all the firms are going to support that. You know, so… [Nathan]: No they're not.  [Chris]: And you know as general…for our audience, as general advice I'm gonna say don't do that. Mainly because I don't know, you know, if I'm talking about the average agent, right. [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: They're not gonna be at that level to where, you know, I would feel comfortable just saying “Hey go out and put your commission on the line.” Because guess what? They do that. They say “I'll bridge the gap on an appraisal.” And the appraisal was four percent off instead of three. [Christian]: Well yeah… [Chris]: Now what's gonna happen? [Christian]: I mean you should always have…always have a cap, you know, as far as how far you'll go. You know, I mean I think in general, the principle I like. Because you're basically partnering with your clients, with skin the game. As opposed to you like “Hey, you know, here's all the terms. If it doesn't work out, well I'm fine. But you're gonna get [censored].”  [Nathan]: Well and my part in it is where I bridge part of the gap. My client will bridge part of the gap. But my commission will supersede their bridge. So but again what we're doing and like you said is, you know, kind of like in Top Gun. Right. You know, when you went fully inverted over the other plane and they're like this, you know. So that's the maneuver I pull. And I just haven't taken the picture yet. So…[laughter] [Chris]: International relations. [Nathan]: That's right. So anyway those are my two concerns or thoughts…would, over the last week. [Christian]: It's a creative way to do what you have to do, in a competitive market. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Chris]: Just make sure you run it by your broker. [Christian]: Always. [Chris]: And have your lawyers look at your language in your contract.  [Nathan]: Yeah you actually have to disclose that too, here. So… [Chris]: Yeah you do in Georgia also if you're doing that with the commission. The buyer has to pay tax on that too. [Nathan]: Really? [Chris]: Yeah. Otherwise you have to claim it. [Nathan]: Yeah that's true. [Chris]: Yeah. All right. Well I mean I think that was pretty good. So just recapping. If you're…if you're brand new in the industry, you know, you you're one of three people, you're a full-timer, a part-timer or some timer. Don't be a some timer. Because if you're a some timer, you're never gonna learn everything you need to know in order to be successful at this job.  And then, you know, figure out how you want to build your business. Right. You can…you could do a bit model like Nathan and use your commissioners leverage as long as you do it right. Or you can be the expert in your field. Know everything about everyone.  And everything that's going on in your neighborhood. And make sure that you're the source of information. Either way the business models work. Pick what's right for you. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next Monday. [Nathan]: Peace. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Panel: Chris Fritz Charles Max Wood In this episode, the panel consists of Chris and Charles who talk about developer freedom. Chuck talks about his new show called The DevRev. The guys also talk about time management, answering e-mails, being self-employed, and their goals/hopes/dreams that they want to achieve in life. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 0:30 – Chuck: Hi! Today our panel is Chris and myself. My new show is The DevRev. There is a lot of aspect of our job that boil down to freedom. Figure out what they like to do and eliminate the things that they don’t like to do. I think it will be 5x a week and I will have a guest every week. What does freedom mean to you? What is your ideal coding situation where you don’t starve? 2:10 – Chris: Let me take a step-back. Why I got into coding it was even before that and it was education. I wanted to work with schools and not necessarily tied to only one school. As a programmer I cannot be asked to do things that I don’t agree with. 3:21 – Chuck: A lot of this thought-process came up b/c of my initial steps into my self-employment. I wanted to go to my son’s activities. I saw freelancing as an option and then had to do that b/c I got laid-off. I hate being told what to do. I have an HOA in my neighborhood and I hate it. They tell me when and how to mow my lawn. This is how I operate it. I hate that they tell me to mow my lawn. I want to talk to people who I want to talk to – that’s my idea of freedom. Everyone’s different idea of what “freedom” is will be different. 5:36 – Chris: I want more time to create more free stuff. Chris talks about DEV experience. 6:28 – Chuck: How did you get to that point of figuring out what you want to do? 6:44 – Chris: I still am figuring that out. I do have a lot of opportunities that are really exciting for me. It’s deciding what I like at that moment and choosing what I want to do vs. not what is going to wear me down. I don’t want to die with regret. There is a distinction between bad tired and good tired. You weren’t true to what you thought was right – and so you don’t settle easy. You toss and turn. I want to end with “good tired” both for the end of the day and for the end of my life. 8:00 – Chuck: I agree with that and I really identify with that. 8:44 – Chris: How do you measure yourself? 8:54 – Chuck: It’s hard to quantify it in only one idea. It’s hard to measure. I list out 5 things I need to do to get me closer to my [one] big goal. I have to get those 5 things done. Most of the time I can make it and I keep grinding on it before I can be done. 9:51 – Chris: My bar is pretty low. Is there more joy / more happiness in the world today in the world b/c of what I’ve done today? I know I will make mistakes in code – and that hurts, no day will be perfect. I try to have a net positive affect everyday. 10:53 – Chris: I can fall easily into depression if I have too many bad days back-to-back. 11:03 – Chuck: I agree and I have to take time off if that happens. 11:13 – Chris talks about open source work and he mentions HOPE IN SOURCE, also Babel. 12:23 – Chuck: When I got to church and there is this component of being together and working towards the same goals. It’s more than just community. There is a real – something in common that we have. 12:57 – Chris: Do you think it’s similar to open source? 13:05 – Chuck: You can watch a podcast in-lieu of an actual in-person sermon. In my church community it’s – Building Each Other Up. It’s not the same for when I contribute to open source. 13:43 – Chris: I ask myself: Is it of value? If I were to die would that work help progress the humankind? By the time I die - I will be completely useless b/c everything in my head is out there in other peoples’ heads. 14:35 – Chuck: When I am gone – I want someone to step into my void and continue that. These shows should be able to go on even if I am not around. I want to make sure that these shows can keep going. 15:48 – Chris: How can we build each other up? We want to have opportunities to grow. I try to provide that for members of the team and vice versa. The amount of respect that I have seen in my communities is quite amazing. I admire Thorsten on the Vue team a lot. (Thorsten’s Twitter.) He talked about compassion and how to communicate with each other and code with compassion. That’s better community and better software. You are forced to thin from multiple perspectives. You want to learn from these various perspectives. 17:44 – Chuck: The ideas behind the camaraderie are great. 17:56 – Chris: And Sarah Drasner! 18:38 – Chuck: She probably feels fulfilled when she helps you out (Sarah). 18:54 – Chuck: We all have to look for those opportunities and take them! 19:08 – Chuck: We have been talking about personal fulfillment. For me writing some awesome code in Vue there is Boiler Plate or running the tests. 19:52 – Chuck: What tools light you up? 20:02 – Chris: I am a bit of a weirdo. I feel pretty good when I am hitting myself against a wall for 9 hours. I like feeling obsessed about something and defeating it. I love it. 21:21 – Chuck: The things that make you bang your head against the wall is awful for me. I like writing code that helps someone. (Chris: I like the challenge.) We will be charged up for different things. You like the challenge and it empowers me to help others out. 22:21 – Chris: I like learning more about how something works. I want to save people a lot of work. There has to be a social connection or I will have a hard time even attempting it. 22:52 – Chris: I also play video games where there are no social connections. I played the Witness a few months ago and I loved the puzzles. 23:45 – Chuck: What other tools are you using? 23:57 – Chris: Webpack is the best took for creating the ideal development scenario. 24:47 – Chuck mentions Boiler Plate. 25:00 – Chris: It was built to help large teams and/or large applications.  I built some other projects like: Hello Vue Components & (with John Papa) Vue Monolith Example. 27:07 – Chuck: Anything else that you consider to be “freeing?” 27:13 – Chris: I like working from home. I like having my routines – they make me happy and productive. Having full control over that makes me happy. The only thing I have is my wife and my cat. 28:12 – Chuck: Yeah I don’t miss driving through traffic. 28:44 – Chris: I don’t like to be around people all day. 30:40 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 31:05 – Chris: Online I get a couple dozen people reaching out to me for different things: completely out-of-the-blue. I want to respond to most of those people but... 33:12 – Chuck: If it’s not on my calendar it won’t happen. I will get those e-mails that can be very time consuming. 33:35 – Chris: When they are asking for something “simple” – it’s not always simple. 34:30 – Chuck: I want to help everybody and that can be a problem. 35:02 – Chris: They are reaching out to me and I want to help. 35:56 – Chuck and Chris go back-and-forth. 36:18 – Chris: How do you figure out how to write a short enough response to the email – to only do 30 minutes? 36:44 – Chuck: Can I answer it in one minute? Nope – so it will go into another pile later in the week. I’ve replied saying: Here is my short-answer and for the long-answer see these references. I star those e-mails that will take too long to respond. 37:50 – Chris and Chuck go back-and-forth. 38:06 – Chuck: Your question is so good – here is the link to the blog that I wrote. 38:37 – Chris: I want to document to point people HERE to past blogs that I’ve written or to someone else’s blog. I feel guilty when I have to delegate. 39:35 – Chuck: I don’t have a problem delegating b/c that’s why I’m paying them. Everyone has his or her own role.  40:40 – Chris: Yeah that makes sense when it’s their job. 41:30 – Chuck: I know working together as a team will free me up in my areas of excellence. 41:49 – Chris: I am having a hard time with this right now. 43:36 – Chuck: We are looking for someone to fill this role and this is the job description. This way you can be EXCELLENT at what you do. You aren’t being pulled too thin. 44:19 – Chris: I have been trying to delegate more. 45:04 – Chuck: Yeah I have been trying to do more with my business, too. What do I want to do in the community? What is my focus? What is my mission and values for the business? Then you knock it out of the park! 45:51 – Chris: As a teacher it is really helpful and really not helpful. You are leading and shaping their experiences. You don’t have options to delegate. 46:27 – Chuck: Yeah my mother is a math teacher. 46:37 – Chuck: Yeah she has 10 kids, so she helps to delegate with force. She is the department head for mathematics and she does delegate some things. It’s you to teach the course. 47:18 – Chris: What promoted you to start this podcast? Is it more personal? 47:30 – Chuck talks about why he is starting this new podcast. 48:10 – Chuck: My business coach said to me: write a mission statement. When I did that things started having clarity for me. Chuck talks about the plan for the DevRev! 55:20 – Chris: I am looking forward to it! 55:34 – Chuck: It will be recorded via video through YouTube, too, in addition to iTunes (hopefully). 55:52 – Chris & Chuck: Picks! 55:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React JavaScript C# C++ C++ Programming / Memory Management Angular Blazor JavaScript DevChat TV VueCLI Boiler Plate Hello Vue Components Vue Monolith Example Thorsten’s Twitter Sarah’s Twitter Ben Hong’s Twitter Jacob Schatz’ Twitter Vue Vixens The DevRev Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Chris Vue Vixens Charles repurpose.io MFCEO Project Podcast Game - Test Version

Panel: Chris Fritz Charles Max Wood In this episode, the panel consists of Chris and Charles who talk about developer freedom. Chuck talks about his new show called The DevRev. The guys also talk about time management, answering e-mails, being self-employed, and their goals/hopes/dreams that they want to achieve in life. Check it out! Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 0:30 – Chuck: Hi! Today our panel is Chris and myself. My new show is The DevRev. There is a lot of aspect of our job that boil down to freedom. Figure out what they like to do and eliminate the things that they don’t like to do. I think it will be 5x a week and I will have a guest every week. What does freedom mean to you? What is your ideal coding situation where you don’t starve? 2:10 – Chris: Let me take a step-back. Why I got into coding it was even before that and it was education. I wanted to work with schools and not necessarily tied to only one school. As a programmer I cannot be asked to do things that I don’t agree with. 3:21 – Chuck: A lot of this thought-process came up b/c of my initial steps into my self-employment. I wanted to go to my son’s activities. I saw freelancing as an option and then had to do that b/c I got laid-off. I hate being told what to do. I have an HOA in my neighborhood and I hate it. They tell me when and how to mow my lawn. This is how I operate it. I hate that they tell me to mow my lawn. I want to talk to people who I want to talk to – that’s my idea of freedom. Everyone’s different idea of what “freedom” is will be different. 5:36 – Chris: I want more time to create more free stuff. Chris talks about DEV experience. 6:28 – Chuck: How did you get to that point of figuring out what you want to do? 6:44 – Chris: I still am figuring that out. I do have a lot of opportunities that are really exciting for me. It’s deciding what I like at that moment and choosing what I want to do vs. not what is going to wear me down. I don’t want to die with regret. There is a distinction between bad tired and good tired. You weren’t true to what you thought was right – and so you don’t settle easy. You toss and turn. I want to end with “good tired” both for the end of the day and for the end of my life. 8:00 – Chuck: I agree with that and I really identify with that. 8:44 – Chris: How do you measure yourself? 8:54 – Chuck: It’s hard to quantify it in only one idea. It’s hard to measure. I list out 5 things I need to do to get me closer to my [one] big goal. I have to get those 5 things done. Most of the time I can make it and I keep grinding on it before I can be done. 9:51 – Chris: My bar is pretty low. Is there more joy / more happiness in the world today in the world b/c of what I’ve done today? I know I will make mistakes in code – and that hurts, no day will be perfect. I try to have a net positive affect everyday. 10:53 – Chris: I can fall easily into depression if I have too many bad days back-to-back. 11:03 – Chuck: I agree and I have to take time off if that happens. 11:13 – Chris talks about open source work and he mentions HOPE IN SOURCE, also Babel. 12:23 – Chuck: When I got to church and there is this component of being together and working towards the same goals. It’s more than just community. There is a real – something in common that we have. 12:57 – Chris: Do you think it’s similar to open source? 13:05 – Chuck: You can watch a podcast in-lieu of an actual in-person sermon. In my church community it’s – Building Each Other Up. It’s not the same for when I contribute to open source. 13:43 – Chris: I ask myself: Is it of value? If I were to die would that work help progress the humankind? By the time I die - I will be completely useless b/c everything in my head is out there in other peoples’ heads. 14:35 – Chuck: When I am gone – I want someone to step into my void and continue that. These shows should be able to go on even if I am not around. I want to make sure that these shows can keep going. 15:48 – Chris: How can we build each other up? We want to have opportunities to grow. I try to provide that for members of the team and vice versa. The amount of respect that I have seen in my communities is quite amazing. I admire Thorsten on the Vue team a lot. (Thorsten’s Twitter.) He talked about compassion and how to communicate with each other and code with compassion. That’s better community and better software. You are forced to thin from multiple perspectives. You want to learn from these various perspectives. 17:44 – Chuck: The ideas behind the camaraderie are great. 17:56 – Chris: And Sarah Drasner! 18:38 – Chuck: She probably feels fulfilled when she helps you out (Sarah). 18:54 – Chuck: We all have to look for those opportunities and take them! 19:08 – Chuck: We have been talking about personal fulfillment. For me writing some awesome code in Vue there is Boiler Plate or running the tests. 19:52 – Chuck: What tools light you up? 20:02 – Chris: I am a bit of a weirdo. I feel pretty good when I am hitting myself against a wall for 9 hours. I like feeling obsessed about something and defeating it. I love it. 21:21 – Chuck: The things that make you bang your head against the wall is awful for me. I like writing code that helps someone. (Chris: I like the challenge.) We will be charged up for different things. You like the challenge and it empowers me to help others out. 22:21 – Chris: I like learning more about how something works. I want to save people a lot of work. There has to be a social connection or I will have a hard time even attempting it. 22:52 – Chris: I also play video games where there are no social connections. I played the Witness a few months ago and I loved the puzzles. 23:45 – Chuck: What other tools are you using? 23:57 – Chris: Webpack is the best took for creating the ideal development scenario. 24:47 – Chuck mentions Boiler Plate. 25:00 – Chris: It was built to help large teams and/or large applications.  I built some other projects like: Hello Vue Components & (with John Papa) Vue Monolith Example. 27:07 – Chuck: Anything else that you consider to be “freeing?” 27:13 – Chris: I like working from home. I like having my routines – they make me happy and productive. Having full control over that makes me happy. The only thing I have is my wife and my cat. 28:12 – Chuck: Yeah I don’t miss driving through traffic. 28:44 – Chris: I don’t like to be around people all day. 30:40 – Advertisement: Get A Coder Job! 31:05 – Chris: Online I get a couple dozen people reaching out to me for different things: completely out-of-the-blue. I want to respond to most of those people but... 33:12 – Chuck: If it’s not on my calendar it won’t happen. I will get those e-mails that can be very time consuming. 33:35 – Chris: When they are asking for something “simple” – it’s not always simple. 34:30 – Chuck: I want to help everybody and that can be a problem. 35:02 – Chris: They are reaching out to me and I want to help. 35:56 – Chuck and Chris go back-and-forth. 36:18 – Chris: How do you figure out how to write a short enough response to the email – to only do 30 minutes? 36:44 – Chuck: Can I answer it in one minute? Nope – so it will go into another pile later in the week. I’ve replied saying: Here is my short-answer and for the long-answer see these references. I star those e-mails that will take too long to respond. 37:50 – Chris and Chuck go back-and-forth. 38:06 – Chuck: Your question is so good – here is the link to the blog that I wrote. 38:37 – Chris: I want to document to point people HERE to past blogs that I’ve written or to someone else’s blog. I feel guilty when I have to delegate. 39:35 – Chuck: I don’t have a problem delegating b/c that’s why I’m paying them. Everyone has his or her own role.  40:40 – Chris: Yeah that makes sense when it’s their job. 41:30 – Chuck: I know working together as a team will free me up in my areas of excellence. 41:49 – Chris: I am having a hard time with this right now. 43:36 – Chuck: We are looking for someone to fill this role and this is the job description. This way you can be EXCELLENT at what you do. You aren’t being pulled too thin. 44:19 – Chris: I have been trying to delegate more. 45:04 – Chuck: Yeah I have been trying to do more with my business, too. What do I want to do in the community? What is my focus? What is my mission and values for the business? Then you knock it out of the park! 45:51 – Chris: As a teacher it is really helpful and really not helpful. You are leading and shaping their experiences. You don’t have options to delegate. 46:27 – Chuck: Yeah my mother is a math teacher. 46:37 – Chuck: Yeah she has 10 kids, so she helps to delegate with force. She is the department head for mathematics and she does delegate some things. It’s you to teach the course. 47:18 – Chris: What promoted you to start this podcast? Is it more personal? 47:30 – Chuck talks about why he is starting this new podcast. 48:10 – Chuck: My business coach said to me: write a mission statement. When I did that things started having clarity for me. Chuck talks about the plan for the DevRev! 55:20 – Chris: I am looking forward to it! 55:34 – Chuck: It will be recorded via video through YouTube, too, in addition to iTunes (hopefully). 55:52 – Chris & Chuck: Picks! 55:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React JavaScript C# C++ C++ Programming / Memory Management Angular Blazor JavaScript DevChat TV VueCLI Boiler Plate Hello Vue Components Vue Monolith Example Thorsten’s Twitter Sarah’s Twitter Ben Hong’s Twitter Jacob Schatz’ Twitter Vue Vixens The DevRev Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Chris Vue Vixens Charles repurpose.io MFCEO Project Podcast Game - Test Version

This episode is the the first of a series of interviews exploring how entrepreneurs scale up their serviced accommodation businesses. In this first episode Chris interviews Hitesh Mistry as he talks through the different ways to scale serviced accommodation businesses, and the ways he has personally done so with his own business. Hitesh is owner of Vision Lets who provide rooms with a difference: Modern, Bright and Clean. Hitesh runs Vision Lets with his wife and focusses a lot on the lifestyle that being a landlord gives, and the passive income it can bring.   Show Notes: The Serviced Accommodation Podcast is a show brought to you by Chris Poulter and Ritchie Mazivanhanga aimed at new and experienced property investors alike. With each show we help you Start, Systemise and Scale your Serviced Accommodation Business. If you would like to ask us a question or discuss anything in this episode, please join The Serviced Accommodation Podcast Community on Facebook, and ask away. To listen to more episodes or get more information go to www.thesapodcast.com. Find out more about Hitesh and Vision Lets at: http://visionlets.com/       Transcription: Chris: Hi, I am Chris. Hitesh: Hi, I am Hitesh. Chris: And welcome to the Serviced Accommodation podcast.   Chris: As you may have noticed, it is not Richie joining today, we have got our test results for our series on scaling up. So, we have been working Hitesh for a little while now and having been through the process of scaling up his business, and we thought it would be really interesting and useful (process) to talk about that painful process; right. So we are just going to have a kind of chat about the process you have been through, if there is any (parts) you can help people with — that kind of thing. So it would be really useful for everyone, just to start off with — to kind of under a bit more about you; who you are; where you are based; what you have kind of been through; and tell us your background career? Hitesh: Yeh nice one. Thank Chris. Thanks for inviting me today, I really appreciate that. I think when you said you have been working with me for a little while, a little bit longer than a little while. I think nearly around two years. Chris: Really! That long. Hitesh: Yeah, it’s been quite a long time and it’s definitely been a journey. I’ll tell you my background. It’s been a great journey though. Really hard. My background, I am actually a corporate person. I work for huge corporate conglomerate, global company, for ten years. I haven’t been a serial entrepreneur at all. Hitesh ordinary average guy, you know, just… Chris: That’s amazing. I find it hard to like envisage you in that whole corporate world. I guess the whole time I have known you, you have kind of been out of that you see. Hitesh: Yeah, exactly right. That’s exactly correct. But you know, I have done a lot of academic studying, I have went through the kind of traditional study modes, the university, I have got an MBA as well. So academically, I have really studied a lot, I have really always (sealed) myself in the kind of corporate world. But back in 2009, my wife and I, we started buying properties — our own properties — as buy to let. And that kind of got into the flavour of how we invested in property. And actually around 2004/2003… Sorry, 2013/2014, around there. Now we have we have get that decade… I started getting a little bit itchy in my corporate role and I was thinking, we have started building up a property portfolio, and the income we were getting was quite good. If you kind of called it this passive income whatever. And I really thought of, you know, if I can do it more in property, and left in the kind of corporate traditional job side of things, I know it’s a bit of cliché but I read that kind of “Rich Dad, Poor Dad” book. It really did flick on a lot of light in my mind actually. Chris: It might be a cliché but it genuinely does, kind of, I think the word is paradigm. I think it’s a great word, I don’t really understand it but certainly kind of, you can look at something and see it in a completely new light, and that’s certainly what it did for me. Because suddenly you will go, I can see the mistakes I am making, my money comes in and I spend it. Hitesh: Yes. Chris: In I just… The money comes in and I put even a fraction of that away to invest in assets and then start sending your money from that, that’s the wealth. It’s such a simple concept and yet so powerful; isn’t it? Hitesh: Really powerful. Really, really powerful. And really resonates very strongly enough for a while. And also, at that time, 2014, my son has been born and he is three years old. My wife was, in 2015, pregnant with my daughter. And I thought to myself, you know actually, in the first three years of my son’s life, actually… In fairness, because my job was a (field) based role, I generally have a lot of time and freedom to manage my own diary and my customers I was working with, so, I do get to spend quite a lot of time with him, probably more so than an average kind of person. But, I wanted more than that, I wanted to spend even more time with my son and my family, and I really saw property as a vehicle to do that. And those few things in my mind started to make me think perhaps I should leave my corporate job and go full time property and kind of just go through it and see what happens. Because another thing that I thought was that if I go through it, even if it doesn’t work out, I am young enough just to still go and get another job again. Very employable in that regard. So, if I don’t try that I might have a lot of regrets and that’s really my background and how I got into property. Chris: So what was it that kind of made you take the leap then — the final leap if you like, from the corporate world into the entrepreneurial world? Did you kind of have something (lined up); did you just go — I have got focus? Hitesh: I mean the property portfolio was supporting us, not obviously replacing the whole income (with me), but, it was a nice cushion. Chris: Yeah. So it was kind of a safety blanket, if you like. Whatever happens you would have some money coming in, at least enough to kind of live on. Even though it may be not as much as you used to; right. Hitesh: Absolutely. But even it was still a just in time because Kim, my wife, she was on maternity, so actually she was picking up a new kid. All of that was becoming — it was a bit of a risk, really. Chris: Particularly, because she is on maternity. Even that child too is on the way as well. Hitesh: Exactly. The cost are about to go through the roof. I kind of leave my job… Chris: So, was that something that Kim has always supported you in or was it kind of a battle? Because I think that a lot of people struggle with is that, you kind of start to come into this entrepreneurial world and you have a kind of mind-set around what you are doing. And if your partner doesn’t share that mind-set, it can be very hard to kind of communicate on the same level. So was that something that you struggled with or…? Hitesh: Yeah. I think Kim was — she was so supportive, like really supportive. You know, if you really feel that something you want you want to do, and it’s a dream, then go for it, I will fully support you — we will find a way of doing it. She really gave me that extra confidence to take that step (how) you want and really go through it. The other really interesting thing as I have always been involved with — personal development, and psychology, and mind-set, and believe (system), and things like that — being involved in practicing, and trying to improve myself, and make myself more accountable for man years. And I thought to myself, you know what, let’s just go through it, one way or another I will just make it work. Do you know what I mean? I think when you really are focused on something, like very focused, I think then you really do make it work. Especially, if you then say to yourself, you know; we needed to kind of live a good life as well. I don’t need more pressure but, it is true that… For me, I thought I didn’t think working and going major on property was going to work for me — that I just don’t think I would have the focus. I need to really, really, really focus in one thing only. Chris: Yeah. And I would say you are absolutely right. It’s very hard to really make something successful unless you have the focus around it. Certainly for years I have like two or three businesses, really. At least three businesses going on at any one time, and none of them really did (anything) because they didn’t get the full focus and attention that they needed to really start growth. So, now I completely understand that. When you went full time in property then; what were you focusing on that time; was it single let still? Hitesh: I went for the rent to rent HMO model. That’s what we went for. So we did setup our own HMO that we purchased, we just completed it, it was getting it to go live, so that was really exciting time. And then really focused it on rent to rent HMOs — that was what we focused on. Chris: Okay. So I guess that’s kind of natural progression, you bought an asset which is an HMO. You have kind of been through that process, seeing how it works. And so, you know what, I could benefit from a lot of these cash flow without a lot of our capital input by taking on rent to rent. Hitesh: Yeah. Definitely. Didn’t quite go very straight forward though, it took me seven months to get my first rent to rent HMO. Chris: Yeah, I am sure that’s quite a common path; isn’t it. Because here is an interesting thing, people think if they are going to and get, say, three properties. And you won one every two months and then after six months you are having three properties. But it took you seven months to get your first HMO, but, on rent to rent; how many did you get in the kind of six months or so after that? Hitesh: Yeah. Then they started to come through. (They first start to flow) through after that, until we got another four or five, quite quickly after that. Chris: So it’s amazing how that looks; isn’t it. And it is kind of putting the time on it first. And you know when we are working with people in the quick-start program, you have to keep reminding them that okay, you are paying the work, and you are paying the work, and it doesn’t feel like it’s paying back, yeah, but it’s exactly the situation which you found several months of work and after six and a half months you just have been going kind of mental. You know what we are doing. Hitesh: Definitely. That really does reminds me of about pushing a snowball up the hill. Do you know what I mean, this analogy, you know it’s hard work — pushing up the hill. And you think; what am I doing? This is not working. You can see, there is (someone mentioned), but it’s hard sometime to really think, you know what, I am close to doing it. And then all of a sudden something happens, it starts to come together, and you get a break. And then that snowball tips over and it starts to roll down the other side of the hill, and the momentum becomes somewhat self-fulfilling. You know, you still keep the focus, you still got to keep going. But, things starts happening for you, which is really nice. But you have got to do that bit first, of pushing up the hill, and the belief, and to keep going, and all other things. Chris: Absolutely. It doesn’t matter what strategy on a guaranteed rent, for instance, the kind of typical one way. You are having to get around with the agents and explaining what we are doing, you feel like hitting break all of the whole time. And just throughout you are saying, eventually, you kind of hit that critical marks; don’t you. Management is exactly the same. At first you are having to, (it will be out there), kind of trying to find people you might be able to help with it. And then eventually you kind of get to that point where really people are referring people to you, or people are giving you a ring. So, it doesn’t matter what kind of structures you are using, there is a way that kind of critical (mass point); isn’t it. And a lot of effort required beforehand. Hitesh: Yeah. Very much that. Chris: So, if you kind of quit your corporate life and went rent to rent, which presumably a cash flow strategy. So what was it that attracted you to then do another cash flow strategy on top of that, in serviced accommodation? Hitesh: This whole thing was kind of around with rent to rent HMO that you are going to make at least £500 a month. Chris: I was for about a thousand pound a month per property, and I was about to say that sounds very familiar. Often that’s said about SA as well. Hitesh: Exactly. And that was powerful, it got me into the rent to rent HMO. And the reality is that it was really different, quite honestly, really different. My result weren’t like a thousand pound a month, not at all. My first one wasn’t even £500 pound a month. So, actually if you look at it (and) the breakeven point, because you got a furniture. Actually I am still trading at a loss, in the first… As soon as you go live you are trading at loss. You know, that takes at least twelve months to break even. Chris: Yeah, that’s true. Hitesh: So that’s really interesting because I thought, well actually this is not as great as I thought it was going to be. You know, if I was taking five out, which I end up being leveraging so that to finance the outlay for it, but this will take a whole year to break even. Well okay, I have got to hang in there, it’s a waiting game… it will come good, that’s fine. But then I think maybe naively I fell into a similar trap with serviced accommodation. Chris: I was going to say because that sounded very, very familiar to me. Because people do guarantee rent and a cashless strategy, but, you have got to claw back all that cash which you presented in the first place, and that’s usually a six to twelve month period. And of course ironically, most of the people doing this are doing it because they need money now. Hitesh: Yes, that’s right. Chris: So it always depends how you look at it. You can look at the money as well but now we have got the cash flow. But in financial terms if you don’t have the money then you are going to have to borrow the money or come to some arrangement and work with someone else, which means that you are not going to get that cash flow from day one. Hitesh: That’s correct and the other thing that attracted me to serviced accommodation or changing was, I am a sort of person that I write like to, if you like, diversify, so I don’t really want all my eggs in one basket anyway. So, having the HMOs that (will) build up the rent to rent, you know, that was good and I thought to myself, well, I have got a good focus on this but you we have got rooms got rooms that are filling with pushing the market rent, good properties. But, I always worry about tomorrow, (if it’s) going to change. So, having a new strategy and a new property business, if you like, means I am kind of de-risking myself in that regard. So as long as I keep the focus on the other thing and have the focus on this new thing, and I felt it was contradictory, you know, but we had systemized quite well, the rent to rent business, the HMO business. So, I felt the time was right that I could spend some more time now, looking at a new strategy and serviced accommodation was what I wanted to do. Chris: Yeah, I think you are completely right. You need to focus at first, to actually build the business up, but then once you know how everything works, you can put systems and teams in place, you know, leveraging quite (hard). Okay. So you kind of make the position into moving to SA, so did you start looking for deals or…? Hitesh: That’s a foundational kind of trading and stuff like that, reading up and trying to understand how it works and comes together conceptually and theoretically. And then went out and started to look for… Actually, you know what happened was, the first deal was a rent to rent, which originally was going to be an HMO. Yeah, it was going to continue to be an HMO. And the builder who was helping to do the work said, oh, there is a lady –you know, it’s quite close by — that’s operating serviced accommodation. And obviously being fresh in my mind from reading and learning and trading and what’s not. The (word) as an interesting thing, I haven’t originally consider it for this property but (why not) consider it. So, she and I had a really good chat and she has been doing it for about one year, so, she had gotten some good underground experience, and we went through some numbers with what she was doing, and I thought it was really interesting. I have done some further research and felt that this could be a really good opportunity. So, we then went for it and we tried to a serviced accommodation instead of HMO. That’s kind of how the first one started. Chris: Cool. So tell us a little bit about that first property, you said it was like an HMO. So where you kind of doing it as rooms or studios? Hitesh: Studios. So, it’s a rent to rent deal, doing the guaranteed rents deal. And seven units in that whole studio, self-contained units. So you have quite nice, quite attractive proposition for the marketplace. But I thought if I can create a mixture and get an amount of money running a serviced accommodation, it was well worth trying. And the numbers really look like they were going to step up quite well for it. So, that’s what we have done, we went for it. When I say we, that’s really me, but the lady was very much helping me. We basically agree that she would help me with the day to day operation, so it wasn’t very much a (we) operation. She came in and she was absolutely brilliant at helping to get things moving in that property. Really-really good. Chris: Does she have like an interest in anything or was she just being helpful? Hitesh: No. Chris: Was she doing it for free? Hitesh: No. We obviously set things up so that she would be rewarded on a commission kind of basis, so I set it as a commission type basis. Because I really wanted her to over deliver and really help us to… I wanted us to have some skin in the game. Do you know I mean. So, she is not investing any money in the property itself but if she is going to provide money from services if you like. I guess what it was really. And she was pretty much handy with everything, from the initial setting up on the portals and platforms, to the pricing, to the guest experience, the after sales, all that stuff, she was doing all of that. So, we set it on a commission type basis and we started… It flew out of the door, to be honest. It started really-really well. Chris: Yeah. And it started with reasonable scale as well, you are not just like taking (on the)… I think the standard way would be take on a two or three bed apartments, and see how I have got to scale from there, so go in with seven studios. Hitesh: Yeah. Absolutely. Chris: So, what do you think you struggled with the most when you first get started? Hitesh: In terms of that property or like… Chris: Just common, in general. You know coming into SA, it is very different from anything else you might see in property, it’s a real whole business; isn’t it. So there is so many different moving parts to it, from the systems you might have in the background to the end product which people have to get right every time, or they get, you know, you don’t leave guests unclean towels, your (linen) or anything like that, Through to the kind of bookkeeping aspects for it. So it’s such a kind of high arena really, SA. Or was there anything specifically which you kind of struggles with, or it was new to you, or did you feel like it was just a big kind of learning curve but you took it all on board quite easily. Hitesh: To be honest with you, I was terrible. I didn’t get very involved with the business at all. I went for an approach where I had leveraged this lady, because she has the experience, she knew what she was doing, and she was delivering pretty much everything, and I didn’t get involved really with it. I went back to this idea of spending a lot of time with my family and I was quite happy because I have leveraged out the whole function to her. But, in hindsight, I think that’s the bit I struggled with in that… And the e-mist book is such a good book. Early on in that book they talked about delegation by abdication, you know, leveraging by abdication. You give someone a function but you don’t actually set the KPIs and measurable, to track actually how well they are delivering. It’s fine to leverage someone, but if you don’t really know what’s going on then what’s the point. All I could (say is that) in a month money was coming in and I was making profit, (first of all), happy with that. But, by making tweaks and changes you can make that profit even greater, you know that’s the beauty of the business; isn’t it. So, in some ways and it sounds bad, I kind of leveraged someone. But, I didn’t really set anything up in terms of KPIs and measurables, to really understand the business myself in any real detail. So I think I probably struggle with that because obviously at some point things started to change. You know demand changes, or the amount of profit I am making is changing, although I am actually… Chris: And then you have no idea why the income is going down. Hitesh: Yeah, I don’t know why. Because I don’t have a grasp on the business, and then you are really relying on someone to tell you about your business and it’s not even bloody their business. Sorry, I know that sounds a bit ridiculous. Chris: That’s fair enough. It’s easy enough to kind of fall into, but then obviously at some point you kind of identify that risk and started involving yourself a lot more in the day to day operation of the business. Hitesh: Yeah, very much so. And I think that’s probably about the time when you and I got involved because I am really a great believer of kind of working with people to kind of create best practice and systems, and have people that have good experience in what you are trying to do and we had a really great chat and I think (a) really good connection. And it was from then that we started working together and you had helped me to kind of see the whole parts of the business, the different parts of the business, and to get me more involved in it, so that I have got more control — that was it — I think you really helped me to get more control of my business, but at the same time keeping this lady happy. Because (certainly) now I am starting to meddle in what she has been doing. But I have to because it is my business and I have got to get control of it, you know, and (deal) with myself in that regard and actually make sure that we are running a very smooth and profitable business for everyone. So that was the next kind of step, really. Chris: Yeah. And it was taking it from a, you said, leverage by abdication, into the (thing) that we always talk about, the best way to leverage is you build a system get someone into the system and monitor their performance through KPIs. Hitesh: Definitely. Chris: And so, as I said, SA is quite a complex beast; isn’t it. So it’s just getting your head around all the different areas of that aspect and building your own way of doing things. It was what then kind of really built into a business for you as opposed to, essentially, more of a kind of hands off investment before, I’d guess. So, what pointed you to say that you were going to start scaling up your business and from the kind of original units that you took on? Hitesh: So, I always had in my mind… And again I think it’s one thing that we talked about in one of our mentoring sessions. Because I had taken this lady on and I was paying her on a commission type basis. I was quite happy and understood that the concept of leveraging, you know, a staff member. So I was really happy, then I thought well, we definitely got capacity to take on more properties. And if I can do that I still have really good time free, but still making more money, we would be foolish not to do that. So, that was the idea that I really wanted to kind of move that forward and just take on some more properties. Yeah I obviously wanted to take more profit and be more profitable. But going out there and starting to leverage some of the relationship we have been building over for the last two years now, then it was good because some of the good properties were coming and we thought, okay well we can leverage this. Get more properties on, we have got the capacity to deliver and the expertise now, to deliver on a product. And that was just really a no-brainer to try that. And then obviously with us working together, Chris, having more systems and controls in place, meant that I could be more kind of strategic, in terms of my involvement with the business and make sure that we are steering in the right way, and that we were really focusing on creating a very nice, really good customer experience, product, that was good for them, good for us as well. Chris: Yeah. And that focus on the end product, which I think when you have got one property your first one and you are setting up you have such focus and attention to detail around it. And as you have started to scale this property, the biggest thing and the most important thing, which can kind of get lost along the way. Is that you have got people in all this different mechanical aspects of the business but you did have to be keeping an eye on the end product. You know, in the guest experience, (multiple) customers actually going in and experiencing. Very important for sure, very easy to get lost. So when you were kind of going from that point and to scale up the business; what kind of models where you looking out for that? Hitesh: Rent to rent. That was it, that’s all I knew, to be honest. That was it. Chris: You had a bit of a false start with that really; didn’t you? Hitesh: Yeah. And no one ever told me about something called VAT. Chris: Until we spoke. Hitesh: Until we spoke. And you said to me… are you joking; are you kidding me. Because that’s really a game changer, and not in a good way. You know that’s life. Chris: Not a kind of positive impact really. Hitesh: No. Chris: So we kind of have a look at your portfolio and I have to look at the different methods around it. In fact I think yours was genuinely the first review I ever did, you know, a couple of years back. And we have kind of been introducing you to some of the other modules and management was certainly one of those modules. And I seem to remember when we kind of looked over it. You went well, this is kind of a no-brainer; why am I doing this when I could be doing management, taking a similar amount of money and not having to put any capital (in); right. Hitesh: Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s also interesting because, you know, going back to like owning your own assets, this kind of obsession of, sometimes you want to buy into that property, we want our own assets and we get a yield that comes off it, Actually a management module… You know, you don’t have the assets but the yield, and it’s fantastic, you know, you get a great amount of money from an asset that you are just managing but you don’t have any of that necessary (recycled) with it. You know all the capital outlay (actually) get going either. And it’s a really scalable module as well, which when you opened my eyes to. Chris: Yeah. And I think we were looking at your financial targets, and we went okay so you need X many management properties to achive that andyou were off then, going straight to find these properties. Hitesh: That’s right. Chris: Okay. So, you started to scale the kind of management module, so how has that been going for you now? Hitesh: It has gone really great, really-really well, it has been really game changing. We have taken on some pretty quite diverse properties, we have got some one bed property, we have got quite a few two bed properties, we have also gotten really interesting units that, you know, quite a large scale, and the management fee on those have been really great. So, it has been a really enjoyable journey, to move up from. And then also with our rent to rent properties, we have also restructured that — you helped me with restructuring that. So moving away from rent to rent to become a more management property. By selling them as investments to other people but retaining the management on them. So, which have helped me from that capital perspective, in terms of paying off on my capital debt that I secured into the business to get going in the first early days, helped me to get rid of some of that. But I retained the management fee on that as well, which was really-really nice. That’s very scalable than to do it that way. Chris: (I remember) because of that impact, stepping away from that and taking it below the VAT threshold, actually making very similar amounts of money, but you are also getting this nice capital input from having sales and deals. So, how many guaranteed rentals do you operate now? Hitesh: Now we have two. Chris: So kind of scaled it all team way back to below the VAT threshold and all the rest of your business is around the management module. Hitesh: Yeah. Chris: And so, obviously you have scaled your management business to a reasonable level now, and that’s kind of the point that this series of interviews is really talking to people and seeing how they have scaled up. Because I know there is, to some degree, a sentiment now around scaling up in SA, though it can be very tricky, and very hard; so what do you feel were the most important elements to you kind of scaling your business up to the level that it is now? Hitesh: It’s really good question. I think there are few things… When you say there is one thing — there is a few things. I think when you start to scale up it can be quite daunting, you know when you are taking on more and more and more, it can be quite daunting. And actually you come to this kind of feeling, I don’t know if it’s a psychological feeling. And when you think oh crikey, things are moving quite fast now, and wow… You already probably can actually do it, you start to have a little bit of self doubt. There is also responsibility, you always have responsibility to the landlord that you are representing. And you know as management, you have a lot of responsibility to your staff as you scale up and take more people on. You have a responsibility to the customers that are going to experience the product, and try to get that. And all that combined, for me, it starts to create anxiety and worry. So the mind-set stuff was really important for me, very-very important, I really went back to my (ways) to always do, which was running in the morning, doing a really early morning routine, I am very much a morning person. And starting my day with time for myself, to really get my mind-set in the right place so that I can really perform on my business. That was honestly so important. It’s hard because sometimes you can’t directly attribute what you are doing today to your mind-set or some other things that you do on a day to day basis, but for me I am convinced it’s helping me to perform and do really well. Chris: So do you feel that a routine and it’s very important to kind of bring structure to an entrepreneur’s life. Hitesh: Yeah, I do. Chris: You know, on the basis that you have not go to be in the office at 08:30 or 09:00 and you have not got someone looking over your shoulder to see if you are working or not and that type of thing. Hitesh: Yeah, I think so. I am very much a quite structured near kind of person, anyway, organised. So for me it’s very important. I mean I do think it is, you can easily lose days, weeks on end, if you are not careful and you can get so easily dragged into things you shouldn’t be doing. You know as you scale up and get more involved, you know, you can easily get dragged into organizing the cleaning rota. Fielding the calls for the customers that are not happy or really happy. And actually you have got to really be very disciplined to what you want to do with your day that’s going to deliver and add more value to the guest, or your business, or your staff, or whatever it might be. I mean that’s definitely one, the psychology mind-set side of things. That was massive for me. The second thing was really your numbers and your accounts, and your profit and loss, and that sort of thing. For me, it’s a very critical area, such a critical area. I think there is many of us, me included, would go on this journey and have no clue whatsoever about that business. And I don’t mean in a harsh way… But honestly it’s such a major problem, I think that we go up there and we are so focused on getting more sales and bringing more properties, just go and get them, just go and get them, set them up, just go, go, go. But actually when you measure them, some of them could be performing not very well, or with some small changes you can make them perform really-really well. You know, with some, you got a cull and say this is not the right way I am doing things, get rid of them. But you only know that, for me, you only know that through your numbers, and you have to be (so) on your numbers, also setting up KPIs, I never had KPIs. My only KPIs was the kind of occupancy (rate). Chris: And we both say what a great gauge that is. Hitesh: Having KPIs in place, having your accounts, and actually looking at them all the time, like all the time, and making all your decisions based on it, you know, it’s very-very important. I think for me, scaling up, that’s a massive part of it. Chris: Yeah. Definitely. Because otherwise, it’s very focus on scaling and lose the performance aspect of it. And realizing you are not really performing where you need to be. And actually it’s part of growth, and that’s always going to happen to various degrees. But like you say that, what you found certainly is that the biggest impact you can have on that is by having focus around the KPIs, having focus around the reports, and checking in with them a couple of times a week to see where you are at, what can you do to impact things, make a difference, etcetera. Hitesh: Yeah, definitely. And you can become very busy otherwise, just running around as you grow; but is good running. Good way of measuring. So that was very-very crucial for part of scaling up. I think also really embracing and leveraging people, systems, technology — huge — and what can be done with technology is just (depending on that)… But so powerful because it can give you really low cost, automation, much smarter way of doing things, and then we have talked about… And low cost can really make a difference to a business. You know leveraging people, very important, you know, part of scaling up as well. You can’t do everything, you are going to have the right people in place. Chris: You wouldn’t want to be there Hitesh: No, you wouldn’t… Chris: It’s very hard; isn’t it? It’s very hard to let go of various aspects, you know, controlling the business. Hitesh: Yeah. A hundred percent. And then also having peers, people that are operating similar business to you and being in the right network of people, I think it’s really important too. You know, regular meeting up with people, having contact with other people. You know, having people around you that have best practice, and are operating best practice, that know their stuff, you know, it’s really crucial to surround yourself with people like that as well. Then the part of the mentoring and the coaching that we do together for this few years that we have been working together, Chris, it’s been really vital, because it’s part of that network. And when you are not sure, because you don’t ever have all the answers when you are not sure, you got to better ask somebody. And get answers to that instead of reinvesting the wheel, you can implement things that other people have done that have served them and worked really well for them. You know, you put it into your business and yeah, great, you are seeing almost immediate results. Chris: And it’s also a kind of motivation as well; isn’t it. I was talking with Graham, he is also a member of the boardroom, and he was saying how when he comes each month, it’s like if someone has come along and they have taken on an extra block, and he is like, okay I better get my ass in gear, I feel like I want to come back… He sees someone else and they have implemented a system which (is working) really well in their business, he is like okay, I am actually going to do that. So there is a lot of that kind of peer driving your business forward as well, in terms of healthy competition, if you like. Or getting ideas and kind of wanting to do that. And if I can put words into your mouth, I think probably the element in your case was just scaling, and we have already kind of touched on it really with just getting the strategy right, because obviously if you continue to scale using the (guarantee rent) around what you are doing, then that would have ended quite badly. And so it was (all the) things are fundamentally important but getting that strategy right, I think without getting that in the first place, there is no foundations to build off. Chris: Very true. And that is a great way, Chris. Again I think if you try and fly on your own — somehow you would be aware of some of this stuff. And when you surround yourself with people that are doing same business, operating a similar way, ahead of you then you can learn, you can learn and you can review things and go, do you know what, this is not quite working, this is the reason why it’s not working, you know let’s change approach, let’s try something new, something different. And then you can explore it, and then implement it and try and see what happens. But the strategy — that was a real big game changer, that whole VAT thing, changing the module, going in the management module, and scaling upwards, it was a really game changer for me. It’s a very massive thing, thank you Chris. Hitesh: So we talked about (build) to a scale module, and we heavily recommend to people that (are often) just scaling up straight away. You build a module, say two bed properties using half (mile) of your city center, targeting trades, and (tourists)… Whatever your module might be, on each specific module you test that module and make sure it works in the way you expect before scaling up. So if you are talking to someone who have maybe been through that process, who have been operating it, you know, two or three properties for six and twelve months and now they are looking to really push forward and scale their business in the same way that you have; what kind of advice would you give to them? Hitesh: Set up your KPIs, early (days), really early (days). Get your measurables in place and how you are going to measure it — your growth — I think that’s really crucial. I would say get up your game, kind of like mind-set psychology wise, you know, really, when you go to any level, it is very (testing) of the mind; do you know what I mean. And I think you are going to be prepared for that, and I think that’s a big thing. And make sure you got the right kind of structure in place, strategy and support in place for that next phase. You know people that you can turn to, work with, (help) with, and have the right systems, and process, and people in place. That’s what I would say. Chris: Thank you. Thanks for joining us today Hitesh. I hope everyone found that very interesting and also very useful. Hitesh: Thank you Chris so much for your help. And thanks for inviting me today, I appreciate it. Chris: Cool. Taking you. Hitesh: Fantastic.   Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast. To hear the latest on serviced accommodation. If you are looking to start, systemise or scale your serviced accommodation business, visit www.thesapodcast.com to see how we could help you further.          

Sun Tzu and Woody Harrleson Help Banks with Revenue Creation Narrator: He learned strategy by playing chess with his older brother. Narrator: Kelly Coughlin is a CPA and CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast, Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover reward. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of BankBosun, helping community banks navigate risk and discover reward in a sea of risk, regulation, and revenue creation threats. Today we are going to talk about marketing strategy, tactics, and revenue creation. BankBosun has a program for banks called Tactical Ecosystem Marketing. It is the results of three years of research and discussions with marketing experts and community bank executives. It’s a program guaranteed to generate new revenues from all bank business lines. And get all the banks’ centers of influence – that is those people and companies who influence and recommend banks and bankers – get them fully on board and engaged to help you get new customers. Guaranteed. How you might ask? Spoiler Alert: By primarily promoting them – your clients, prospects and influencers – and their businesses and services -  and then secondarily promoting your services and yourself. In 2014, I started researching ways that complex financial technology or financial services companies could be more efficiently and effectively marketed and closed. I use the terms efficiency and effectiveness carefully and intentionally, because they imply a reduction in time, as in shortening the sales cycle; reduction in expenses, travel, entertainment, and other direct business development costs; and reduction in effort, as in reducing the days, months or years it takes to close a deal. This was the challenge and, believe it or not, I actually figured it out.  But first it requires some attention to strategy and tactics and then a discussion on marketing and revenue creation. I have invited my friend Chris Carlson to join us in a few minutes. You see, Chris is one of my favorite people on the planet. He is a lawyer and an actor. Not one of those Hollywood elite actors though – he lives in South Minneapolis. But I think he has a small part in a movie coming out this summer. Chris has been very helpful to me in helping me craft my message and public speaking skills and style to conform not to dull and boring business standards, but to the stage and theater standards. Not that you need to be an entertainer. I certainly am not. Rather, you need to be your true and authentic self. Chris is terrific with this. So I asked him to help me with my messaging on this. And I thought, let’s do it as an interview and a podcast. I know you have heard plenty of people talk about strategy…and some business people use strategy and tactics interchangeably. In war, if you do that, it can be life threatening. In business you can sometimes get away with blurring the two with the result ranging from financial and operational inefficiencies to the ultimate penalty in business…death through bankruptcy. I don’t like to blur them. Because I think it is critical to achieving success to define your strategy and constantly be revising your tactics to implement that strategy. In short, strategy describes the destination and tactics describe the specific actions you will have to take along the way. Generally speaking, strategy doesn’t change that much, but tactics will constantly be adjusted and modified. When I lived in Seattle, I used to have a sailboat. I loved participating in sailing races. There was one race in the winter of 1985. I think they called it the Frostbite Series. This taught me at the age of 25, the real difference between mission, strategy and tactics. There was some heavy weather on the Puget Sound…probably around 25 knot winds. The mission was to have no more or no less a crew suitable to lead, navigate and operate the boat in that competitive situation and in that weather condition. Round each buoy and finish the race in the shortest time; and win the race. Before the race we developed our strategy on buoy placements and how we would round them; wind direction and speed and what sails we would need; and the number of boats, competition and the starting line placement and how we would approach the start. In a sailboat race, if you have a lousy start, you will have a very difficult time making up that time lost. Taking too much risk to cross the finish line ahead of the gun and have to circle back and re-cross could cost you five minutes. In a sailboat this can be painful. Our tactical decisions went something like this. We added one more crew to the boat. We used a starting tactic where we went to the finish line two minutes before the gun, and sailed perpendicular away from the line for one minute. And then we tacked and turned around and started sailing back to the start line. The tactical theory here is that if you sail away from the start for one minute, it should take you more or less one minute to return to the start. If it takes you more, you are late, if it takes you less, you are early. I liked that starting tactic. We decided to not fly the spinnaker because it was so windy. The cost of that decision was a loss in boat speed. But the gain was that we expected others would be more aggressive and fly their spinnaker and either struggle with that during sail changes or perhaps experience a knock down. We adopted a more conservative tactic and hoped our competitors would be more aggressive and get hurt by that. The end result was while we were winning the race, but because one of the buoys had blown free during the gale storm, the race was canceled. We actually chase that windward buoy for about 90 minutes past the original placement of it until they finally notified us by radio the race had been canceled. This one race taught me so much about the relationship between mission, strategy and tactics. In this race our mission never changed. Win the race. Our strategy was defined at the beginning based on conditions and competitive landscape. But our tactics were constantly being modified and adjusted and corrected to deal with the ever-changing conditions and our competitors’ reactions to those conditions. It taught me to not get caught into myopic thinking about how we win a sailboat race. The concept of not flying our spinnaker seemed so very foreign to me at the age of 25. Now, at 59, it makes total sense. In 1980 a Harvard business school professor, Michael Porter wrote a seminal article, “Competitive Strategy: Techniques for Analyzing Industries and Competitors". Commonly referred to as Porter's Five Forces. Porter maintains there are five undeniable forces that play a part in shaping every market and industry in the world. If you haven’t created your own, Five Force Analysis, you need to do so. I love doing these things.  This will help you determine how to modify your strategy and tactics based on your competitive landscape. And always update it at least annually, if not quarterly. So in summary, strategy and tactics work together as means to an end. There are a number of good quotes on strategy and tactics. More on strategy than tactics actually, because frequently the same principles in strategy apply to many, many areas including war, sports and certainly business. I just finished reading the book, POWER by Robert Greene. He even claims that there is strategy and tactic in romance. He quotes the 17th century French poet, Francois La Roche Foe Cou. I bet I butchered that name. Sounds a little like….Well anyway…“A reasonable man in love may act like a madman but he should not and cannot act like an idiot.” I love that quote. Many of the concepts in strategy, apply to many if not all human endeavors. But tactics are more specific to a particular business and industry. There are hundreds of great quotes on strategy and tactics ranging from Caesar in the war versus the Gauls to Norman Shwarzkopf in the first Iraq war. I certainly have a couple favorite quotes on strategy and tactics including this one by Sun Tzu: Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. But my favorite quote on strategy and tactics especially for smaller banks with limited capital and budgets competing against big banks and big brokers with much bigger capital and seemingly unlimited budgets. It’s a quote by Napoleon, one of the most brilliant military strategists and tacticians, ever. Napoleon said, “The amateurs discuss tactics. The professionals discuss logistics.” I’m going to repeat that. “The amateurs discuss tactics. The professionals discuss logistics.” To me this plays exactly in to my core message in this podcast of revenue creation strategies and tactics that are both effective and efficient. Napoleon is saying, I don’t want to talk about tactical ideas that can’t be implemented, because of logistical constraints…only those we can actually implement. For community banks, this means, let’s not talk about big picture ideas that we cannot afford. Rather, if you have ideas that fit in our budget, then terrific. If not, let’s not waste each other time. Well, rest assured, if you keep listening to this podcast and other video and audio content we have produced on BankBosun.com you will see or hear that these meet the Napoleon standard referenced above. It is a discussion on tactics that are logistically feasible and reasonable for all community banks. So with that in mind, I think I have my friend Chris Carlson on the line. I’m gonna start with a quote from a director who actually despised actors…recall Chris is an actor. Let’s see if Chris can identify the source: “I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle.” So with that said, Chris time to come to the slaughtering pen…can I hear your best moo cow imitation? Chris: I’ll try to give you my best moo cow imitation. But I’m first need a motivation. What is my cow trying to communicate? Kelly: First of all, can you identify the source of the quote? What is the source of that quote? Chris: I don’t know. It would have to be some sort of director. It can’t be Woody Allen, because he likes actors. Kelly: Alfred Hitchcock Chris: Alfred Hitchcock, that would make sense. What is my cow trying to communicate? I mean, because it could be Moo (uplifting). He’s trying to solicit an answer from the other cows. Or it could be Moo (forcefully). Like, move out of the way rancher, because he’s trying to cattle prod me into a slaughtering pen. Or it could be maybe a seductive Moo, that wants to get something going with one of the other cows. Kelly: Let me hear that seductive one, again. Chris: Moo, Kelly, Moo. Is that good? I mean. It’s not as good as a pugilist. You can do a good impression of, can’t you? Kelly: What I thought you would do is just like a Mooooooo! Chris: Oh wow! See, that’s why I’m in a nationwide movie opens tomorrow and you’re not. Kelly: Why, ‘cause mine was just too kind of stereotypical? Chris: Well I don't think they'd put your picture on the poster with Woody Harrelson peeing in a urinal. But they did for me. Kelly: Did they? What's the name of the movie? Chris: Wilson. I haven't seen it yet so I can't speak to the quality. But Woody Harrelson is pretty good. Kelly: Alright that is terrific. Chris: And I will not be mooing in it. Kelly: So let's get down to business. Chris you heard my introductory statements, or as you actors call it, a soliloquy. What questions do you have about what I'm doing or how do you want to start? Chris: As an actor you know I want to know how to make money. But you’ve got these kind of inventive ideas with generating revenue as you call it. So why don’t you fill me in and let me know if I can get in on it. Kelly: As I mentioned earlier in 2014, I started researching ways that complex financial technology or financial services companies could be more efficiently and effectively marketed. Technology, the Internet, and mobile devices have enabled many businesses to operate more efficiently and effective in my mind…I think of Uber and many other kind of virtual companies. Many of these companies don’t even have a human being available to sell, support or service. They pride their business models on the ability to open up a sales funnel and close a deal without ever having to talk to or “touch” the customer. Those are “air quotes” under touch. Build a technology platform. Offer it to consumers. Make it easy for the consumer to pay for the services. And collect the money and deposit it. And spend more to capture more consumers and more money. No human interaction at all. If any of you have had to deal with Uber for ride sharing or Facebook or LinkedIn for advertising, you know exactly how challenging it is to talk to somebody there. In their minds, they are the perfectly fine-tuned efficient and effective revenue generators. I use the terms efficiency and effectiveness carefully and intentionally, because they imply a reduction in time, as in shortening the sales cycle; reduction in expenses, as in travel, entertainment, and other direct business development costs; and a reduction in effort, as in reducing the days, months or years it might take to close a deal. This was the challenge and, believe it or not, I actually figured it out. Chris: Well wait a minute though. I mean hasn’t digital marketing and especially social media don't they help with efficiency and effectiveness. That has to have been a good thing, isn’t it. Kelly: Well, yes. In part, it has. Here’s how I see it. There really are two ways we develop business relationships: directly to the buyer and indirectly to the influencers of or to the buyer. The combination of customers, prospective customers, and influencers of customers plus the other businesses and individuals that also sell services to members in that ecosystem, comprise the total ecosystem. All require an investment in time, expense, and effort. Social media like LinkedIn has helped us stay easier connected to buyers and influencers. And this ease has certainly helped with efficiency, as it doesn’t cost much to connect on LinkedIn or Facebook. But in terms of effectiveness, it doesn’t quite get it done in that it really just the beginning of the relationships. It’s more like an advancement of the old days of giving somebody a business card and they stick it in their rolodex. And hope they remember you some time. Do you even remember what a rolodex is?? Chris: Yes, I do remember what a Rolodex is. It's a thing you wear on your wrist, right? Kelly: That would be a Rolex. Chris: Rolodexes are no longer. How do you parse that problem? What's your way to phrase the big dilemma? Kelly: The reality is the method by which we initiate business relationship has changed a bit with social media and email. But developing the relationship, hasn’t really changed that much. We make contact. We connect. We get them in the funnel. Then we do some mix of pounding them with emails, and sending them articles about our products and services or information that we think they would find interesting and useful. We might call them on the phone. Maybe get a face to face. There is always a challenge to deliver sufficiently good and interesting content to get the buyer motivated to accelerate their sales cycle with you. And there is always a struggle to keep your product and your company top of mind to the influencers of the prospect. This all takes time, expense, and effort. And also a patient CEO, board and shareholders. Chris: Well wait, wait, wait. What did you figure out? What did you figure out in terms of efficiency and effectiveness that you were talking about earlier? Kelly: It was my experience as a sales and marketing professional and as a CEO and manager of sales people and responsible for revenue creation, that sales cycles were dreadfully long; sales messaging was painfully repetitive and uninteresting; and there were constant and continual struggles to come up with a new excuse to call a prospect to see where they were in the sales cycle – hot, warm, or cold; and to make sure the center of influence still remembered you as the go-to company for a client referral or recommendation. We’ve been exploring this and we’ve developed a revenue creation strategy that solves the problem of efficiency and effectiveness. We call it Tactical Ecosystem Marketing. It utilizes the cost efficiencies of digital marketing, especially audio content that is produced and syndicated on iTunes, google play and YouTube; coupled with connecting with the client on social media and promoting THEM…not you. At its core, Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a marketing strategy whose primary focus is not to promote your company and your products, rather to promote your CUSTOMERS’ and PROSPECTS’s company and products. The secondary focus is to promote YOUR business and YOUR products. And the same applies to the Centers of Influence.  You focus on promoting THEIR business and THEIR products and a secondary focus on YOUR business and your products. How do you promote them? Through your own audio podcast program. It delivers high quality content for your sales people to distribute and discuss with your clients and prospects. High quality content for your ecosystem members to distribute and discuss with their clients and prospects. It’s one big fat happy symbiotic ecosystem. Everybody wins. It’s highly effective. It’s very efficient. It’s very Sun Tzu. You attack your enemies’ weakness and avoid their strengths. This strategy and tactic does just that. Chris: So, Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a revenue creation strategy. And the tactics are designed to help community banks create, publish and syndicate on websites, YouTube, iTunes and GooglePlay and all those other things. And they promote all the products and services of the bank’s ecosystem, as well as its members. Kelly: Yes, Chris. It’s kind of like Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a way a community bank can pay it forward and in return good things will happen. Well, we're up to the twenty-minute mark. Is there anything you want to add about what you're doing with Narrative Pros these days with you, Chris.   Chris: We're just trying to help people like you Kelly make their point and connect with their audiences. Some people don’t have the gift of gab like you. So, what we do is we try to help them come up with a clear way of conveying their message and do it in an authentic and genuine way. Unfortunately, you do not have need of our services. You're a master and we respect that. Kelly: Hmmmmm, I don't know. I think I have paid you a few dollars over the years to help me Master those skills though. Chris: That's true. You're one of our star pupils, so I will accept that. Kelly: Chris, I appreciate your time. Take care of yourself. Chris: You too! .Narrator: We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier.

Don't worry folks, Poisoned Peach (AKA Jennifer) will be back next show. After all it's gonna be our Spooky Halloween Spectacular!! But that's next show. Today's was just hosted by DJ Sexy Lips again. I hope you enjoy the Sonic review, as Sonic is a big part of us here at Retrocore Blaster Master 2 (Genesis, Chris) Sonic the Hedgehog (Genesis, Chris) Half Minutr Hero (PSP, RTS Chapter and Shooter Chapter, Chris) As mentioned, next show is the Halloween Special!! Send in your emails to: Retrocore@hotmail.com