Podcast appearances and mentions of chris good

A thriving business is built on people, not just product. This week on Building Texas Business, I spoke with Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar, a developer-first software company founded in Geneva and growing fast in Austin, Texas. Lynne leads their go-to-market team, and Clarissa heads up people and culture: together, they're shaping Sonar's growth story in the U.S. We discuss Sonar's journey from its open-source roots to serving over 28,000 organizations. Lynne shares how Austin's tech ecosystem and talent pool have been key to expanding their operations, including the rollout of their latest product, SonarQube Advanced Security, an integrated solution that combines code quality with security. Clarissa highlights the cultural strategies that keep Sonar's fast-scaling team engaged and committed, including an acronym-based value system (CODE) and a balanced hybrid work model. Over the conversation, we see how Sonar's approach to innovation and people has evolved. From whiteboarding solutions on-site to building confidence in AI-generated code, their focus is on helping developers build better, faster, while maintaining a human connection. What stood out to me most was how Clarissa and Lynne use leadership not just to grow a company, but to create a space where culture and innovation reinforce each other. It's a reminder that whether you're writing code or growing a team, trust and clarity go a long way. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore the transformative journey of Sonar, from its developer-focused beginnings in Geneva to its dynamic growth in Austin, Texas, a key hub in the U.S. tech scene. Lynne Doherty and Clarissa O'Connell share insights into how Austin's vibrant tech ecosystem and business-friendly environment have accelerated Sonar's expansion and shaped its innovative culture. We delve into SonarQube Advanced Security, a new integrated solution enhancing application security by addressing threats during development, demonstrating Sonar's commitment to code quality and security. The conversation highlights Sonar's strategic partnerships with Austin universities and robust internship programs aimed at nurturing the next generation of tech innovators. Lynne and Clarissa discuss the significance of creating a positive company culture, underscored by their CODE acronym, and how it fosters a collaborative and inclusive environment at Sonar. We address the challenges of rapid technological change and the importance of continuous team enablement and customer education to adapt and thrive in a fast-evolving industry. Through personal insights, Lynne and Clarissa emphasize the importance of work-life integration, adaptability, and maintaining well-being amidst the demands of leadership and a growing company. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sonar GUESTS Clarissa O'ConnellAbout Clarissa Lynne DohertyAbout Lynne TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) INTRO Welcome to the Building Texas Business Podcast. Interviews with thought leaders and organizational visionaries from across industry. Join us as we talk about the latest trends, challenges and growth opportunities to take your business to the next level. The Building Texas Business Podcast is brought to you by Boyer Miller, providing counsel beyond expectations. Find out how we can make a meaningful difference to your business at BoyerMillercom and by your podcast team, where having your own podcast is as easy as being a guest on ours. Discover more at yourpodcastteam Now. Here's your host, chris Hanslick. Chris: In this episode, you will meet Lynne Daugherty and Clarissa O'Connell of Sonar. Both Lynne and Clarissa share how being based in Austin, texas, has helped accelerate their company's growth and influenced its culture. I'm going to say hello to Lynne and Clarissa from Sonar. Thanks for joining me on Building Texas Business. Lynne: Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Chris: So I'm going to just have a fun free-flowing conversation, but I do want to start with each of you telling us about yourself, but also about Sonar. What does the company do? What is it known for? Clarissa: Great. Lynne: Yeah, I'll start. My name is Lynne Doherty and I lead our go-to-market team here at Sonar, which, if you think about that, is almost everything that directly touches a customer it's sales, it's support, it's engineering, it's our customer success organizations, our demand marketing organizations, and so I've been here at Sonar a little over a year now and it's been a great and wild ride. To give you a little background on who Sonar is, so we're a company founded in Geneva in 2008. And since the beginning, we have been an organization focused on developers, a developer-first company. We came to Austin in 2018. It was our first US office is in Austin and since then we've continued to build out the team in Austin, including our CEO Clarissa, our head of HR, our new general counsel, our new CFO all sit out of Austin. So Austin is is our second biggest office outside of Geneva, where we were founded. What we do is we focus on developers and it's around reaching the market of developers. We have 7 million developers that use our products. We have 28,000 organizations that use us today, and it's all around. How do we make developers more effective, more productive? We call it building better, faster, and that's what we're focused on is how do we do that Giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. That that's what we're focused on is how do we do that giving developers actionable intelligence so that they can build better faster. Chris: That's right. So is it kind of an open source type concept then? Lynne: We start in open source. That was our roots is we have an open source product and then we have what we do at Sonar is sell the enterprise version of that product, the product that's the commercial version, when you need more features and grow and scale. We developed a product that people can use when they sort of graduate from open source. Chris: Great Well Lynne I appreciate that so. Clarissa, let's hear a little more about you, and then your background and a little bit in the role you play at Sonar. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely so. My name is Clarissa O'Connell and I am the chief people officer here and, as you heard from Lynne, she manages the business and I'm in the lucky position that I get to manage the people that help drive all of those activities. So I'm really excited that we're in Austin, texas. As you know, it's a really thriving city, specifically for tech and for things like AI, so it's a perfect place for us to be located. We have almost 200 people here in this Austin office. We are growing this office every single day, with offers coming out on a regular basis, and I am in the really lucky position that I get to help drive the initiatives that help Lynne establish the protocols and sell the business for our customers. So I get to focus on things like making sure that we're one of the top employers in Austin, the rewarding packages for our employees, so that we can take the time to find really qualified individuals and then keep them here, and then all of the things that surround that, like culture, learning, development, career advancement and training. We also partner with all of the major research universities in the region to be able to develop things like internship programs and make sure that we're really socializing what it is that we do within the developer community and kind of embracing this really fast moving startup culture that Austin is really known for, and all of those things put together are making us who we are and the employees here are fantastic. Austin is amazing and some of our smartest talent is coming from the Texas region, so really happy to be here to talk to you about businesses in Texas. Chris: Yeah, Well, I'm not biased but I'm not surprised you're finding Texas and the workforce. I think it's important. It's one thing to have business friendly policies in place, which Texas certainly does, but you've got to match that with talent or the companies aren't going to come and some of it may be a chicken or egg kind of thing, right, because we do see, and I'm sure y'all are experiencing migration of people to Texas because that's where the companies are establishing themselves, like you have, and then trying to build from there. So you know, kind of to that lens, what are some of the emerging technologies or the trends that you see shaping kind of Texas business and, specifically in the Austin area, what are some of the trends that you're seeing emerging that are helping you with this growth? Lynne: Why don't I start? And, Clarissa, you can add in if you have anything. But I'd say the biggest trend that we're facing as a technology company and a software company for developers is, every day the news around AI is coming out and changing and evolving incredibly quickly, and you know, for us, we really believe that the core of software development whether that's designing program, validating the code that's developed, it's going to be enhanced by AI, and what that means is people, our customers, their roles as developers is going to evolve. We don't believe any of those roles disappear, but we believe they change, and so it's a big trend that's out there, that we see and our customers are faced with every day. It is something that we take into consideration as we evolve our business strategy, as we think about how we talk to our customers and how we help them solve the problems that they are facing today, and it's one of the benefits of being in Austin is that it enables us to attract talent to help solve these problems as we develop our products. Chris: Yeah, I think, just to step in. I think what's important in there is the idea that AI doesn't replace jobs. It may change and enhance, because isn't that what technology has always done right? As things have evolved, people have always adapted to. The computer hasn't replaced them, even though, with AI, I think there was that big fear, that myth that you need to debunk, right. Lynne: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. I mean, think of all of the different innovations across time that are going to displace people and people aren't going to have jobs, and it ultimately means new jobs and growth, and it's just different kinds of jobs with different skills. Chris: Yeah, so of course, how has being in Austin helped position the company for the success that you're seeing? Clarissa: Yeah, and that's exactly why we're in Austin right. We're in this fortunate position where, as a global company, the Central Time Zone location is really perfect for us and we've got a really amazing strong pool of skilled workers that are coming to Austin, Texas, from all over the world because it is this emerging tech-friendly environment that people are embracing and Austin is a pretty attractive city to live in. You know, we've got really great weather, we've got really fantastic resources, we've got an infrastructure that supports all of these global individuals from across the world, and we're finding new ways to give back to the community, which is also helping us draw really solid candidates, whether that's through you know, sonar Serves is what we call it, but it's when we take our amazing environment of individuals and we give back to our local communities, and so that helps us really retain and attract really strong talent, and all of those things equal us now out of office space, and so we're actually today moving to more space in the building that we're in so that we can continue to be an emerging talent where we can focus on hiring, bringing in those key people, expanding into those new technologies and bringing in those skill sets and diversifying the Austin region and the company itself. Chris: Well, that's really good to hear because in this environment you hear more about companies shrinking office space, not growing. So I'm sure the office market there in Austin appreciates that. So just while we're on that topic, how are you managing with like kind of work remote policies while you expand and take on more office space? Do you see your people coming in more over the last, say, year or so than before? Clarissa: Yeah, we're really lucky that our work environment here is extremely collaborative and, because of the work that we do, oftentimes we do our best work all sitting in one room and whiteboarding things out and solving the problems as they come up. That's really. Our workforce has embraced that opportunity to be able to interact with each other face-to-face. You know, as an HR person, I think it's a combination of people love working remote, but they also kind of miss that interaction, and so currently our workforce comes in every Monday, tuesday and Thursday and then on Wednesdays and Fridays. We make those days optionals for our employee. They can come in if they want to interact. They also choose not to come in. They have the ability to work from home. But, believe it or not, we have about 60% of our workforce that still comes in on Wednesdays and Fridays because that interaction has now become a thing. We're in this fortunate position, being a global company, that we work really hard, but we also have this European culture where it's common for us to embrace that work-life balance, and so it's common for us to do coffee chat meetings. We have the luxurious European coffee machine in the kitchen, so it's dragging people into the office where they're able to talk about those emerging technologies, how to continually improve and increase the company and really embrace our culture. So the one thing I think I'm really proud of is that people work really hard, they're incredibly talented, so they're driving the product to the next level and they're embracing this interaction of culture, and so all of those things together are making it a pretty incredible place to work. Chris: That's great. So, Lynne, let's talk a little bit about innovation. What are some of the things that you feel like Sonar's done in the last several years to really you know? I know your technology company so you probably said, look, that's in our DNA. But what are you doing to really be, or do you think is innovative, for maybe your industry that has, you know, kind of helped position the company to where it is today? Lynne: Yeah, you're absolutely right, chris. I mean, I think it is in our DNA, it's part of what we do, and developers are always at the forefront of technology, and so our customers challenge us to be better every day, because they want to be better. They need to be better and because we're in this changing landscape. So a few things we've innovated on, and we're fortunate because our solution is a fit for really all industries, all types of organizations, all sizes, and so we're focused on a few things that we've done recently, which is really interesting. We have just put out something called SonarQube Advanced Security, and so, if you think about what that is, it's helping developers make their applications more secure, and security is a threat. Everybody in all walks of life, all organizations, faces this threat of cybersecurity issues that can get embedded in code, and so we support developers in not just helping them build faster, better quality applications, but now we've just put out something that enables them to do both code quality and security. It's the first integrated solution to do that, so there are a lot of people that do either one or the other. We're the first bringing that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use, that together into one integrated solution for a developer to use. So security is something that is a big innovation for us that we've just come out with. I'd also add the AI features that we have. How do you get assurance on your AI code? So a developer's creating AI code, it's automated, but you still want to make sure that code has good quality, good security, good maintainability, and so with our product that's a new innovation that we have is to how to make sure that all of that AI generated code you have the same kind of confidence in that you do human written code. Chris: Good stuff. I mean security. You're right. It becomes increasingly more of an issue because more and more things in the cloud all of our information and of course we know there's a whole world of professional hackers out there just trying to get in. So I think it has a lot of people concerned and trusting, whether that trust is well-placed or not. But I think to your point of focus on security, you can't emphasize that enough. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, it's a huge issue and huge concern and we really believe if you start with the developers as the application gets developed and build security in, you get a better outcome than you build an application and try to layer all of the protection on top of it. So it's really about building security and at the development stage from the ground up, and we believe that's a really important trend that we should be a part of. Chris: So, Clarissa, what are some of the kind of investments, if you will, that Sonar is making in Austin to kind of help support your growth strategy? And how do you see, how has that been playing out for you? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question. So Austin, as a thriving tech city, has this really entrepreneurial spirit where we've got these incredible talents from all over the globe that have come here. They really want to stay close to innovation and attract kind of that top talent for us, and our product allows us to do that, not only because of its name recognition but because of the impact that it has for developers worldwide, I think being able to grow our businesses in Austin is key for us. We've already mentioned that we're out of office space and so we're having to grow into that region, but we've expanded our footprint within the market way more than just increasing our office space. We've got internship programs where we're partnering with some of our incredible universities to bring in those individuals who want to get into the footprint of technology and because oftentimes they're already aware of our product, it's a really good opportunity for them to partner with some of the best minds in the business that are working on our product, both driving the product and driving the technology, and so we have really robust internship programs where we give them exposure into what we do and then those eventually lead to full-time jobs and we have the opportunity to put those interns into multiple markets because we are spread across the globe and so we're really proud of exposing those individuals and it helps us to hire those right people. From the very beginning, we are working really hard to be a standout or a world-class choice for employees and so because of that, we leverage a lot of our hires based on referrals, whether those are from customers or from internal employees, and we really focus on providing that experience for individuals that they're proud to work here, and doing that in a way that gives them a work-life balance but also a rewarding package so that their impact that they have in driving our product forward is rewarded for them on the back end through multiple things, whether it's activities giving back to our community, really amazing benefits packages to be able to support them when they're not at work, to learning and development opportunities so they can continue to grow in their career, so that we're bringing them in as a world-class employee, and then we're giving them the tools and resources to even be better than what they ever could have been, and all of those things coupled together are helping us get that top talent in that Texas market to be able to work for our company. Chris: So of course, you've talked a lot about it, but I want to dig a little deeper about culture. Clarissa: One of my favorite topics. Chris: So how would you describe the culture at Sonar? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and one of the favorite things. We could talk about this for the entire time. But we use an acronym to divide, to talk about our culture, and it's actually CODE and it stands for committed, obsessed, deliberate, and then, based on what team you're on, it could mean efficient or it could mean effective. The committed is being committed to what it is that we do as a company for our customers and our clients, but it's also that we're really committed to each other. Everyone at Sonar has a voice and all those voices are heard and we're really good at a collaborative work environment where we talk about things in joint sessions and we have nuances to that that I'm really happy for. We do this thing called called chickening, and what it basically means is anybody in the company at any time can sit it on generally any meeting so that they really understand that collaboration between teams and departments. So if you're on the product team, you can sit in on marketing so that you understand what that's about. If you are on a, an IT team, you can sit in with products, you can understand the roadmap, and so it's really helping our employees understand what we do as a company so that everybody is moving in the same direction. Our obsessed really is closely tied to committed obsessed about what we do, obsessed about who we are and obsessed about the impact that we make, both internally and externally to our clients. Chris: I love that word, by the way. Clarissa: Me too. Chris: I mean it's impactful right. Clarissa: It's really great. We have pictures throughout the office that are code and it's this big, bright acronym that's posted everywhere, so it's really in front of everybody and we talk about it all the time. For deliberate we really do make deliberate choices. We listen to our customers, we listen to our employees and we navigate throughout our company decisions based on a lot of that feedback. We've got incredible moderators that are out there listening to the voice of what our customers are, and they're sharing that information on a regular basis. We're constantly iterating on how we do things so that we can do it better every time that we tackle the project again. And then the, of course, efficient, effective, right Based on the team that you're on. We try and do things in the best interest of the company and we also really embrace this culture that it's okay to ask questions and it's okay to make mistakes, as long as we recognize what those are and we get back up and we try again, and all of those things combined really drive a culture here that is extremely positive. As a global workforce, it helps establish the criteria and expectations that we have across the company, but it also drives those relationships so that everybody understands where we're going and what we're trying to do, and everybody is all in and doing it together. We do regular all hands where we talk about everything transparently, including. What most companies don't do is we take live Q&A at the end and we answer them in real time. So transparency is really important for us. We want our employees to understand that they're here and that their voice matters and to reward that. Every year we also have this really amazing incentive that we have called the Company Growth Incentive, and so we establish milestones in the beginning of the year and every employee at Sonar is rewarded for their actions and activities by a growth incentive or an award bonus at the end of the year, and it's the same amount regardless of what role that you're in, because everybody here matters for what we're doing every day and everybody gets to kind of celebrate in the rewards of those achievements through the company. So we do our best to make sure that our people know that we wouldn't be here without the people that are driving the business and we hope that reflects when we talk to our customers and it clearly is reflected in the business. I mean we hired 231 people last year and that's amazing considering all the trends across the globe, where the companies were downsizing and collapsing, and Sonar was really great at making sure that we did exactly opposite. And it's only May 28th. We've already sent out 158 offers just this year, so we're on track to double that number, which just shows that we're doing something right here and that we're really happy with what we're doing. Chris: It's amazing, it really is. Kudos to you and yeah, I love it. I mean culture. You can have stuff on the wall and you can have your sayings, but unless it's really ingrained into the organization, it doesn't matter how colorful the signs are or whatnot, but I do like the connection to code and what you do. So let me ask you Lynne Clarissa shared that one of those values about deliberate is listening to customers, and that's where you sit right. ADVERT Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: You're on the front edge of that. What are you and your team doing? I guess in two ways one, to listen to the customers, but also to stand out and be able to communicate. You know the why sonar over your competition. Lynne: Yeah, it's a really good question because software development is changing, with AI as a tool, as a practice, as it's pervasive in everything, and we really fundamentally believe that this is a partnership between AI and humans. This is not an either or this is not a one wins and the other loses. It's how do we have that partnership? And I think our customers are in a sort of trial and error phase right now that we are trying to listen to and be there as a partner for them, and how do we help facilitate this for them instead of, you know, be silent in this? How do we facilitate them using AI and using AI effectively, and that's really important for us. So we do spend a lot of time listening to customers. I would say, you know, there's a lot of noise, and I think that's something that we try to be a voice to our customers on is what's the signal, what's the noise, so to speak, on AI, because it's hard to open anything in tech today and not see a dozen or more articles about AI and what's new, and it is rapidly changing, and so I think for us to be a voice, to have a perspective on that and to help them with a solution, a here and now solution that they can use today, as opposed to things that are maybe today. You know ideas and concepts, but they're more vaporware. We're giving real solutions in the world today to help them solve and do AI, but do it better. Chris: Good. So you know, Lynne, what you know there's always good times and bad times in business. What are some of the headwinds that you kind of see that you're dealing with as you're trying to? You know, deal with customers, grow the business, whether that's unique to Texas or just general in your industry. Lynne: Yeah, I think that one of the things that is a challenge today is this need to do constant enablement of our team and education and conversations with customers about changes that we're seeing. I remember and I've been doing technology with customers for a long time and there were times where you'd sort of have a product or a trend or some innovation and it would be months and years that you talk about the same thing, and now I feel like it's weeks or days, or sometimes even minutes, that things change, and so I think that's a real challenge for our customers to stay up on, to stay educated on, but also for our teams that need to be experts on this, and so it's a real challenge, as Clarissa talked about, how many people we've hired is how do we bring them in and educate them on what we do today? But also, what we do today changes tomorrow and changes the next day and changes the next day, and so I think that's a challenge for all of us in technology today is that the sort of lifespan of technology has gotten so much shorter, and so our focus on educating our own employees but doing that in partnership with customers is a constant uphill battle. Chris: Makes sense. Clarissa, what about you from the kind of the HR perspective? What are some of the headwinds and challenges that you're facing as you're trying to help? You know you're really trying to feed the machine with people and talent so that they can continue to drive the business, but what are some of the challenges with finding those people and integrating those people? Clarissa: Yeah, that's a great question and a real problem sometimes, right, because we're not the only company in Texas that realizes how great it is to be in Texas, and because of that, oftentimes we're up against really large organizations that have now made Texas their home and they have compelling stories. And we have compelling stories, and some of those are larger, really well-known companies, and so it's a constant battle to find really great talent. I feel like we have a really good position in the market to be able to find those individuals and we have a great reputation, which is very helpful. But when you're talking to a candidate who has other really amazing Texas companies that they're also speaking to, it is kind of a little bit like a talent war, and because we're growing so quickly, we are trying to constantly hire these individuals, and so the pipeline really never ends for us, meaning we close one requisition and right behind it we're opening it up, so we think we found the best person, and then all of a sudden we're restarting the cycle and every employee that we're hiring here is fantastic, right? We say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which that we're hiring here is fantastic, right, we say that we're constantly raising the bar, and so the expectations are changing, which means we're constantly evaluating that we are a world-class employer with the best offerings, and so the cycle never ends. But we've been really fortunate to be able to have people want to work with us because they understand what we're doing, and you know we celebrate every time somebody says yes, regardless of their role, because every person that's here is important to us and helping to drive what it is that we're doing. Chris: So I'm going to give you a tough question because one of the things I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners hiring is such an important decision and such a challenging thing to do. No one's perfect right. We don't always get it right. So I'm going to ask you, when you realize that it's not working out, maybe just advice, one or two things that you would recommend to people when you're facing that decision of you realize this hire is not working out, it's time to move on. Any tips that you've learned over the years you know doing HR that you know, even though it's hard, it's hard to do when you're affecting people's life any tips on? Clarissa: Yeah, that's the worst part of my career, to be honest with you is you know you want everybody to be successful, just like you want your company to be successful. I really my piece of advice would be to really try and do everything you can on the front end to make sure that the person that you're bringing in understands not only the expectations but what the environment is going to be. And, like Lynne said, enablement is really important, and that goes for customers, but it also goes for your employees, and so, kind of trying to be ahead of that conversation before it ever starts it's not always possible but give them the resources that they need. At Sonar, we assign individuals both a point of contact and a mentor and we also put them through an extremely robust training program. We try and check all of those boxes when they're hired to make sure that it doesn't get to that point. But if in fact, the job isn't right for somebody and jobs aren't always right for people and it's a really hard decision we do try and give individuals that attention that they need to be able to help them be on track, whether that's additional one-on-one training or pulling them aside to re-establish kind of the connection between what they're doing and what we need them to do, but sometimes it doesn't, unfortunately, work out for people. The one thing that Sonar does really well is we do everything in our power to treat people with the outmost kindness. We have really built-in contractual exit periods because we firmly believe that individuals in Texas need that off-ramp period in order to secure their next dream job, even if, unfortunately, it's not with Sonar, and we do everything we can to set them up for success. When people need to depart the company, we give them reference letters so that they have the opportunity to leverage that and we make ourselves widely available to help them secure their next job. And then we do exit interviews so that we can collect that feedback so we can hopefully stop that cycle. Our attrition rates here are really low, so we are very fortunate. But in the unlikely event that they need to leave, we leave on really good terms. I mean, we hire people because they're brilliant but we keep them because they become part of who we are in the fabric of Sonar and every exit that we have is painful for us. But we really do everything we can to make sure that person's set up for success, and sometimes that's leveraging our extensive networks and sometimes it's putting people into partnerships with other companies where they may be a better fit, because it is a small technology state, right Like a lot of us communicate on a regular basis through agencies and entities, and so the referral network is really strong and we do everything we can to make sure that those people are set up for success, even if it's not with Sonar. Chris: Well, thank you, thanks for sharing Great advice. It looks like it's very well thought out on the front and back end, which I think is what's most important right being thoughtful and, to your core value, deliberate about it. So, Lynne, I want to ask you a little bit about leadership. I'd like for you to share kind of how you see your leadership style and how do you think that's kind of evolved or adapted as this role in Sonar has grown and your team has grown. Lynne: I think my leadership style has changed a lot over the years. I mean, I think earlier in my career it was more about how do I get the next step, how do I do something. And I think, as I've gotten bigger roles, I realized it's not about me. It's about what I can do for other people, and so I very much think my leadership style is how do I make people better, how do I leave the company, the organization, the individuals in a better place? Because I was a part of it and play a role in people's careers. That goes long beyond any given quarter or year in a go-to-market leadership position. I always think about the fact that nobody remembers in 2018, I did the best quarter ever but people remember the person who gave them a chance, the person who supported them when they didn't have confidence, and I think through my career, I've seen that even more and gotten more realization. That's really what leadership is about. It's it, you know, fundamentally I need to deliver the business for this company, so we're successful and everybody can have jobs. But you know, for me as a leader, it's more about the individuals that I get to impact through the job. Chris: Very nice, clarissa, how about you? And you've been in this role for some time, but how do you see your leadership style, how do you think it's evolved and changed and you know, kind of share that journey with us. Clarissa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean HR in general has completely changed since I've been doing this in my career. You know it started where we would almost be considered policemen and enforcing the rules and it's really morphed into more of a consultant type of environment, right? So I've found that establishing familiarity with the employees and a really strong partnership with our managers and leaders within the company. I mean, our executive team really thinks exactly like Lynne said, right, we are here to make sure that the individuals who work for us and under us are better than us and I firmly believe that making sure that the people who are driving the business feel heard and that we offer them the transparency that they need and we openly talk about how to be successful here, because, I mean, to be honest, I'm not going to be in this role forever. You know, eventually I want to go. You know, live in the Texas Hill country and my best life. I need to make sure that the individuals who report to me and work under me are able to step in to not only the expectations for how to be a good HR representative for a company, but also to understand what that means and what attributes you need. I think that for me, I have a strong moral compass and leveraging that moral compass through transparency and collaboration and guidance, I try and impart that into every employee. I really think it's important and I've learned through my leadership growth period is to really taking the time to listen and hear what the employees are saying and responding back to them in a way that I would expect, when I was at their career stage, to be responded to, and that's one thing that Sonar's really good at is making sure that everybody understands that their voice is important and taking the time to be able to not only answer things like live questions on an all hands, but to openly and transparently talk about the good and the bad, the growth and the learning, and the successes and the failures. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about how you integrate and, Lynne, I'll start with you how do you integrate this professional life that is demanding, with your personal interests and making sure there's some time for you and family and friends and whatnot? I use the word integration, not balance, because I don't think there's. I think it's a better use of what you do from my perspective, what you do to make it work. Lynne: I totally agree with integration. I totally agree with integration. I think I have never found balance, but I have found integration and so I think a lot of it is having for me. So I'll first start by saying I'm not maybe the best at any concept of balance, but I do think it's important to have priorities, like for me, exercise is a priority. I think I can't be good at what I do here every day if I'm not fit and healthy and strong and here for the marathon, not just the sprint, and so I try to think of that integration as it's a marathon, not a sprint, and so I have some things that are sort of non-negotiable priorities and that doesn't mean every day, every week, every quarter is equal, but I think it is really important to have the things that are very important to you. The other thing that maybe it's less advice about the integration or balance. It's more about recognizing that working is about having different chapters of the book, and there's probably chapters where I'm way more balanced, so to speak, in work and way more balanced in life and viewing things as it's not forever, it's one chapter, and that I think when you're feeling guilty about the things that you miss or the things that you didn't get to, having this view that I'm just in this chapter and that chapter isn't the whole book. So maybe that's my advice, for how do I not feel guilty when I'm not doing something or doing something as well as I think I ought to be? Chris: Great perspective. Thank you, clarissa. Clarissa: Lynne is also leaving off that. She takes fitness to a new level when she comes to Austin. She rallies the troops here and they all go to a cycling class to not only get out their spent up energy but to also like reward and push through and hit other milestones. So she successfully convinced me to go, but that's something she does every time she's in Austin with the team. I also agree I do not have balance myself. I have more than I did earlier in my career where I was trying to figure out what it means to be a leader for an organization. My role is a little bit different than everyone else's because people have needs and you never know when those needs are going to occur. I deal with the employee and not necessarily the product, and so you know. Sometimes there may be an emergency that occurs on a weekend, or somebody may need a clarification on something, or people just might need help, and I need to be there when those individuals need to be there. I've established a really good cadence and balance for offsetting. You know, if I need to be there for an employee on a Saturday at 11 pm, to being able to balance that with something during the week I'm a big fan of even though our employees work really hard grabbing people and dragging them out for coffee just to not only reset my own self but to be able to help them reset, and pulling people into different environments and cultures, and acknowledging to people that I know that I don't have really solid balance and that don't do what I do, what you need to do, and giving them the tools to be able to do that. It does help. Lynne and I both are lucky to be able to travel to multiple offices, so we have forced downtime sometimes when we're on airplanes and so we do have those reset periods, but we're able to hit the ground running when we start again and each market's different, so we try and do the best that we can. I try and do the best that I can. Sometimes I'm great at it and sometimes I'm not great at it. Chris: Well, I think that's all you can do and I think the biggest thing is knowing that you're not always going to get it right. Yeah, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and maybe you know, so does the rest of the world and just knowing that it's going to be okay, your intentions matter a lot, and so you know that. So, look, I really appreciate the two of you sharing not just a sonar story but a little bit of your own. You are on a Texas podcast, so I do like to end this way. I'm gonna start with Clarissa. I give Lynne a little bit of time. I know Lynne just travels to and from Texas. But, Clarissa, do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Clarissa: Definitely barbecue. Chris: Okay, no hesitation I love it. Lynne: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent barbecue. Chris: Love it. Y'all agree on that. Clarissa: I'm going to book us a lunch, Lynne. Chris: Favorite barbecue place in Austin. Lynne: Franklin's. Chris: There you go, there you go. She reads the press clippings, all right. Well, ladies, look. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast. Congratulations for all the success you're having with Sonar Love, that the company chose Austin and Texas to put their stake in the ground and just pleased to see it going so well. Clarissa: Yeah, us too. Thank you for having us. Yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much. Chris: Okay, McKenzie, cut it there. Great job, ladies. Come on, Katie Great conversation. Lynnee: Love to listen in you made it nice and easy, chris. Thank you, yeah, no, you're welcome. Clarissa: If you decide to leave Houston and head up to Austin, please call us Lynne, and I'll take you to barbecue. Chris: Deal and spinning class. Lynne: And spinning class. What are you? Chris: like what's that? Lynne: Tex-Mex or barbecue. Chris: Oh see, it's hard because I'm born and raised here. So I usually say I mean if it's like when I'm gone, the way I have to gauge, that is, if I'm out of town in a different state for a period of time. When I come back, what's the first thing I really want? And the truth is it'd be Tex-Mex. Yeah, blending it right, so you have brisket tacos and things. So there's right down the street from our office we have a barbecue place called the pit room and they own a tex-mex next door and they use the barbecue so you can get like brisket nachos and brisket tacos yeah, it is delicious well maybe we'll come visit you, because that sounds lovely. If you're ever in houston holler at me. But yes, I was like with Lynne. I'm a I'm kind of a fitness freak, so spinning and pilates and okay, okay, but I'm like you, I have to and I have to do in the morning where it doesn't happen. But if I'm not taking care of myself, I don't have. It takes a lot of energy to do what we do. Clarissa: Yeah, I feel like you're not I'm the local pilates girl, so she can take you to spin and I'll do pilates with you, and then we'll all go former I do, reformer I do reformer. Yep, yep, it's a lot harder than it looks, but it's 55 minutes in and out and then you're done harder than yeah, you're right, those machines make it look easy. Chris: It is nothing. It is not anything close to easy not at all, but yeah, so we're good, but seriously love to stay in touch. So yeah, if I'm in Austin I'll give you a ring, and please do if you're headed this way. Clarissa: Yeah, we'd love that. We're right downtown so we'd love to host you. So you let us know when you're in this area and we'll let you know when we're in yours. Chris: Thank, you All right, sounds good. OUTRO And there we have it. Don't forget to check out the show notes at boyermillercom forward slash podcast and you can find out more about all the ways our firm can help you at boyermiller.com. That's it for this episode. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next time. Special Guests: Clarissa O'Connell and Lynne Doherty.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I speak with Brian Birdy, the CEO of PMI Birdy Properties and a regional developer for Dill Dinkers. Brian shares insights about managing his family business, which his father started in 1979. He discusses the complexities of succession planning and how involving family members can strengthen the business for future generations. Brian's latest venture, an indoor pickleball facility, highlights his ability to identify emerging trends and foster a unique business culture. We explore effective strategies for business growth as Brian emphasizes the importance of a solid foundation. He talks about the need for a strong team, comprehensive training, and well-documented processes to navigate unexpected challenges. Additionally, we discuss the hiring landscape post-COVID, where Brian advocates for a proactive approach to recruitment and the importance of adapting to new employment trends. As we move into the topic of franchising, Brian shares his experiences with Dill Dinkers and the potential of using repurposed industrial spaces for pickleball courts. He reflects on the benefits and challenges of setting up a franchise in this fast-growing market. His connection to San Antonio adds a personal touch, as he expresses his passion for the local community and its cultural vibrancy. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed with Brian Birdy, CEO of PMI Birdy Properties, about managing a family business founded by his father in 1979 and his strategies for succession planning and family involvement. Brian shared insights on the importance of building a resilient business foundation through strategic planning, comprehensive training, and process documentation, emphasizing adaptability to technological advancements. We explored the post-COVID hiring landscape, where Brian highlighted the significance of a proactive hiring approach, prioritizing candidates with a positive attitude and aligning with changing employment trends. The conversation delved into the burgeoning pickleball market, with Brian expressing enthusiasm for his new venture in opening an indoor pickleball facility and the potential of franchising with Dill Dinkers. Brian revealed the challenges and opportunities in the residential property management industry, particularly in differentiating oneself in a competitive market and adapting to shifts in housing demand. We examined the process of opening a pickleball franchise, discussing the benefits of franchising for newcomers, the importance of choosing the right franchise, and the potential for repurposing industrial spaces for pickleball courts. Brian emphasized the value of surrounding oneself with capable people, investing in staff, and being open to new ideas and changes to drive business success, while reflecting on his connection to San Antonio and the local community. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About PMI Birdy Properties GUESTS Brian BirdyAbout Brian TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: Brian, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast hey thanks for having me. So you know, let's dive right in and talk about some of the things that you're doing as an entrepreneur and business owner and just introduce your companies to the audience. Brian: Sure. So I'm the broker and owner of Birdie Properties, which is a real estate company that specializes in residential property management. It has been in business for over 46 years. My dad actually started that business back in 1979. I've been running it and working at it and eventually running it since about 97 and have grown it to one of the largest residential property managers in South Texas, learned a lot of lessons in growing that business and the newest adventure is Dilldinker's Indoor Pickleball, which I'm sitting in, and I'm very excited that we will be opening our first location here in about a week and a half. Chris: Well, that's great. So two full-time jobs, it sounds like. Brian: Yeah, Well, the other one's a family-owned legacy business. It's three generations deep. Like I said, my dad started it. My brother and I both worked in it. I've owned it and run it for 20, 28 years and currently all of my three adult children and my daughter-in-law all work there and do the heavy lifting. With a little bit of guidance from me, that gave me the ability that could run effectively without my daily requirement, gave me the ability to actually continue that entrepreneurial spirit and try something completely different, which is indoor pickleball. I saw a true need in my city for this. There wasn't anybody delivering it. I saw it as an up and growing and when I actually started on it, less people knew what pickleball was. In the last 18 months it has really come to the forefront and so I got on. I started riding the wave at the right time and I hope it just keeps rolling, yeah well, it's certainly taken the last couple of years. Chris: It's taken on like a life of its own, it seems like. So let's go back to, I guess, Birdy Properties and maybe the unique part of what it's like in a family business to do the succession from your dad, who was the founder, to you and your brother then taking over that business. What were some of the maybe the pain points and lessons learned about doing that and what maybe advice you might give to someone that's in the process or thinking about it, of what to do or not do? Brian: Yeah, running a family business it's wonderful and it's tough, both hand in hand. The wonderful part about it is their name is on that business. Their future is tied into that business. Their commitment generally if they really care about it is they're a lot more committed than just an individual employee. But at the same time it's problematic in that you can't separate yourself from business. Family meals are filled with business. Taking an entire family vacation becomes almost an impossibility. And then succession is an issue. I bought the business from my father and it was clearly me. I own it. So my brother continued to work there but was not in ownership of it. That has its own problems. We found a way for him to actually build a business out of this and he's actually gone out on his own, is specializing in short-term management and is running his own business now, and so that was a way to kind of figure out how that could work. So he is the owner, sole owner, of Birdy Vacation Rentals. But I've got three kids that work for me. Each of them have unique qualities. They own all own a very important part of the business and they really can't survive without them working together, which works great now, but it's going to be. I'm going to wonder, I keep wondering and trying to figure out how, what is the best way to pass this on? And I don't have the right answer for it, but continuing to work at it, you know, giving them all individual pieces that they could own and be the masters of, and then by doing that, everyone needs each other kind of helps with that whole process. You can't no one of them can survive without the others. Chris: Well, it seems, if that's the case, right then you've set it up well for success because that fosters that team environment and team mentality. And you know we love talking about culture. So obviously you have the unique relationship with your children. How have you tried to take that beyond the family relationship with the other employees so that they feel the same engagement with the organization and tied to the organization's success? Brian: So we've gone through lots of that and growing and basically anybody who works for us can see that. I mean their last name isn't Birdy, they're not in the succession plan but we treat everyone within our business as if it was a big family. We believe in family. We believe in quality time. Individuals who work for us recognize we want them to do a great job for us but when they need time, when they need something they know they can ask for it, they can get it and just building that kind of culture has allowed us to have. Number of people who have worked for us for 15, 13, 12, I think is my current people that are out there have been here for a very long time. They're part of the family even though they're not. You know, their last name doesn't say birdie on it, but we work really hard in building a core that can. You know, property management is a tough business. I've said all along one of our core values is that we're going to have fun, and so one of the things we've always built is if we can have fun doing the worst part of that business, then we got it made. So we have a lot of fun when we're doing the fun parts of the business and when we go out of our way to make sure people are going to have fun. But we also find ways just to have fun and to really own that. There are tough parts of that business also. Chris: Sure, well, true for any business, right. There's always, yeah, the piece that you don't enjoy doing. But you know you have to right, it's a necessary piece but it may not be the most fun. I think you're right. If you can bring joy and fun into that, then the rest should be easy. Brian: right, because it's the stuff you like to do and want to do and, as I think about, I've been doing that for 28 years and I love going to work there. I love people that I work with and even though it's in a very tough and stressful because I mean, at times I have to evict people from their homes, I mean that isn't something that's fun, you know. But it has encouraged me that I'm waiting to see how much fun is running a pickleball facility going to be, where we have a core value of bringing joy to everyone through the sport of pickleball. And I'm like, if I can have fun doing property management, I think I should find it a little easier to have fun running a pickleball facility. But I don't know yet. We haven't opened our doors yet, we're going to find out, but it's. I mean, I'm just it feels like it's going to be fun, but you know, I don't know what, I don't know yet. Chris: So going back to Birdy and property management is anything innovative? Or you know how? Has technology or innovation kind of helped you be more efficient in what you do and maybe more profitable? Brian: Yeah, so we've. We have challenged ourselves to chase technology. You know, if you go all the way back to probably, I mean, and we've done this for a long time and we've had a website since 1998 when it didn't do anything and most people didn't have it, I mean we have a five letter URL. I mean we are www.birdy.com, you know, and people have wanted to pay a lot of money to buy that name, but it's just something. Fortunately, my dad said I think this might be something someday, let me just get our name now. He was lucky, he did that. But from that we've continued to chase the changes. Every business has had major changes. I will tell you that, coming out of the 07, 08 mortgage industry collapse and all the problems that happened, property management got brought way up into the forefront and technology, of course, coming on strong at that time saw this as an open lane that nobody was in and they have been chasing after us like crazy. And we have said all along if we want to continue to be relevant, if we want to be a hundred-year-old business, the only way we're ever going to get there is we have to embrace technology, embrace change, figure out the ways to do that, race to it, understand it and apply it. You know however that is, and so we've dramatically changed our business from where we first I mean when we first started, you know everything was on paper. It was all in a folder. The folder was in a cabinet. You know, you met people face to face. I mean, everything has changed and you know, at our last national event, the big thing that was there was all AI driven. Not only have we used technology and we use computers and we've automated some things, but now we're having the computer starting to figure out what can they really do for us in the industry, and I see that being big changes coming forward as to what can it really do for us. Coming out of COVID, we learned we can do a lot and we don't really need an office to do it anymore. We can have remote team members. We can do a lot on Zoom. We can do everything with computers. I think AI is just going to push that, and that even runs into this business. Bill Dinkers has changed a lot and it's only a couple of years old, but it's incorporated on court cameras that film the sessions for the players, and now that company is building AI, so it's going to be able to tell them automatically. You know some statistics from their match, you know counting things for them and I'm like, and so again, very early stages open landscape that technology and AI development is just stepping into, and I'm just curious and excited to see what can that take us to. I mean, because that's the future of our business, all of our businesses. Chris: Oh for sure, I mean, technology is not going anywhere. I think I had someone tell me one time never bet against technology. Technology always wins right Eventually it continues to evolve and you may not be an early adopter, but you better pay attention and learn how to integrate it sooner rather than later, or you're going to get left behind. Brian: Well, right, and it'll show you ways that you can like. We can manage more properties with less people. Because of technology, we can have individuals working for us now all over the world and we have been embraced that for a long time and we're about a 50-50 business. Half of our employees are here in town. The other half are all remote team members and primarily in Mexico, because I'm in South Texas, so I need people that can speak Spanish, and what greater way to have somebody work for me whose primary language is Spanish? So that part has been a significant change in the property management side of it. And that comes with technology. Right, because they have a computer. They can do everything. They have a phone line, so you call my office and you hit the phone. It's calling them Because phone is now what? A computer? Everything is a computer. If you can learn how to adapt the changes in your business to automation, you find ways to grow and to make money when you're doing it right. Chris: So you mentioned the 08 kind of market crash. What were some of the lessons you learned? I think that's a pretty important or severe impact on your business business and we always learn, kind of through some of those crises. So what were some of the things that you learned, maybe about your company or, more importantly, about yourself that kind of helped pull the company through to continue on a path of success? Brian: Well, if you think about it, most people saw that as a crash, as a problem. In my world it was actually a good thing. Besides the fact that people were losing their houses to foreclosure, that was certainly a negative. That didn't help me at all. But what came behind that was investors, and investors were buying those properties and turning them in to single family rentals and they needed management behind it. People who wanted to hold onto their house but had to leave them could not sell them Again. Another thing we were ready for growth. We were prepared for growth and we were not scared to grow as fast as we possibly could In those years. We doubled in size in both 07 and 08. And I think a lot of that was we were preparing for growth and then something happened that we didn't expect. But we were ready and I don't think anybody else was, so we benefited from that. We exploded over about a two or three year visit and really skyrocketed us up that. We've never lost that position since. Chris: That's amazing. So you talked about you were preparing for growth before those events happened. What was it you were doing to be preparing yourself for that growth? Brian: Making sure I have the right staff, all my training, all my processes, systems, policies and procedures. You know, you, when you first start and you're an entrepreneur, you have this great idea. You know how to do it all in your head, you make sure it can work right. What a lot of entrepreneurs aren't great at is writing it all down, systematizing it all and teaching people how to do it. And so, as you're growing, you're just throwing things trying to fill in these holes and you have to learn there's got to be a better process to your business and growing your business, and an individual who is forward thinking and really crazy ideas and just really interested to go do all these wonderful things can come up with some great stuff, but they're not the person that's going to carry it the long-term, step-by-step and so, understanding what you're good at, learning who you need around you to fill in those pieces where you're not and luckily for me, you know I have children who are from me but not really like me and so and they're not really like each other and so, collectively, the four of us and others that we've built into that start to create more of a complete package, and we learned and we're continuing to learn. We are forever changing and we are forever growing. It never stops, and that's, I think, it. I think at that time, what we wanted was I wanted to grow. We were talking about growing and I was trying everything to be visible because, remember, technology hadn't taken over. You know, people weren't finding you online. You had to. You know, I was still paying for ads and newspapers and the yellow pages because I wanted people to find me. But I found technology earlier than anybody else. I found a program called allpropertymanagementcom when it first opened and it was the first marketplace for property managers on the internet and I raced to it. I was the only one there in 2007. And that's when everyone started freaking out what am I going to do with my property? They looked and they found me, and that was a big part of so just the little steps like that was like not, I mean, that was an investment, I was paying money to do that, but I thought there would be a payoff. I didn't expect the tremendous payoff I got, but it really was a lot about just making sure you know what you have around you and a lot of times, what happens is we don't hire for growth, right, we want growth, then growth happens and then we get squished by the work. Everyone gets overworked, everyone gets stressed, nobody's happy, culture starts to get hurt and you can't sometimes, can never hire fast enough to catch up to train them all. So, knowing your business, watching closely, investing in growth by investing in your people, those are some of the lessons I learned because I did all that wrong at first and I suffered because of it and I've learned to do it differently because of that. Chris: Yeah, that's a beautiful point. I mean to your point about if you start to grow you haven't, excuse me, hired for it then you start making hiring decisions out of desperation and that's a recipe for disaster, as opposed to being able to follow that process. As you mentioned, that process is in place, that you stick to that. You follow that. You're always looking to evolve and change and tweak as times change. But if you're behind the curve, if you will, then it's hard to catch up. Brian: You also have to change with times. I mean when you can be hiring, when you don't need to hire someone, you're not in a hurry. During your interview process you don't settle for okay, this person's good enough, right? You're like, if none of them are good enough, well then they're none. Keep looking right. But if you're in a hurry, if you're in a need, then anyone close you're going to take and it may not be a good fit for you. And I would tell you, before COVID you had people in large numbers applying for jobs, but after COVID that changed dramatically and it became a point. I mean I used to say if I could get 10 people to interview, five of them would show up, or maybe six, and one or two or three potentially could be good opportunities there and you'd be able to windle it down to possibly one good quality candidate. After COVID you were lucky if one person showed up, and I don't think that's really changed dramatically even yet today. Chris: That was my question. It feels, like in the last, say, 12 months or so, there's starting to be a little bit of a maybe it's slow, but a swing back towards people realizing. You know you hear the bigger companies saying five days back in the office and you know that you know where we had the quiet quitting going on in 21, 22. It seems to me there's a little less of that and it's coming back. There are maybe more people out there and you hear that you know new college graduates are having, you know, really difficult times finding jobs because it seems like it's tightening a little bit Well. Brian: Luckily I'm in a season in which I've not needed to hire and I've got everything placed out right, and so I hope when I start hiring again in that space I do see that change, because I've noticed a big difference there and even had to change my whole process of what's really important when I interview people I mean I have put you know the number there are two things that are at the top of the list, and that is an overwhelmingly positive attitude and an undeniable desire to work. And if people come in with those two things, I can take them from there with anything else, because I can't give them either one of those. I can't culture that to anyone, I can't teach that to anybody. They have to have those two things If they have those, if they have those two things clearly, and you can find figure that out pretty quick. Chris: So I have a chance to identify with that, because the words I use are we look for effort and attitude Right. And I like your desire to work. You would think that would come natural, but you and I both know it doesn't. You're interviewing people. They just want a job sometimes or a paycheck, and they don't really have a desire to work or work hard. So I agree, you have to have an interview process that can kind of figure that out. Brian: That's true and we've, and that's something you have to learn and experience and get through and continue to tweak because, as you think you have the best experience, your market of applicants change and then you have to change and adapt with them. BTXBAdvert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Chris:So we kind of look at the landscape out there. What are some of the headwinds that you either are dealing with now or that you think may be coming around the corner, that you're trying to prepare for to kind of not let them slow you down? Brian: I think that in the residential property management space, when times are good we do well, when times are bad, we do even better. So generally making sure that we're running the best business that we can, that we're providing what people need, figuring out a way to be being better Everyone wants to say they're better, but being better doesn't really necessarily draw anyone's attention anymore because it's like are you really better? You're just saying you're better. But when you're different and you can show someone why you are different, that's what really changes it, and I and so we focus on how are we different, why are we different, how can we be different and what differences are going to be important in the next five years that may not have been important in the last five years. Chris: That's really good. Yeah, I could see where and I would think even the lots have been written about it how difficult it is for people to purchase a home. Now, right, the interest rates, one thing, maybe the lack of accumulated wealth or down payments because of the lending markets. I can see where that would boost your business. Brian: I would tell you that in 2024, nationwide the market said that rental markets should have been skyrocketing and doing well, but for a variety of reasons it was not the best year. 2025 has started out as a much better year. Last year was a rough year on most residential property managers and when we look at that it came back to a tremendous amount of apartment complexes that were built coming out of COVID that opened and it drew a lot of the market space away People not buying, not moving, families coming together in one location, which reduces right. But we've seen a big change this year at probably one of our busiest first quarters in a while, so we're hoping that just continues. Chris: Very good. So, shifting gears a little bit Sounds like a company that you love. You said you love to have fun doing it. I guess we're in it for most of your life, bought it from your dad. All things going well, Kids are in it, Kids are thriving and against that backdrop you decide to step out and take on the pickleball business, which there's certainly some competition there. Maybe San Antonio's market was a little lacking. There's certainly some competition there. Maybe San Antonio's market was a little lacking, but there's all kinds of people doing pickleball courts now. So what was it that inspired you or drove you to make that decision and take on that risk? Brian: Well, so I started playing pickleball for the first time coming out of COVID in 2020, when our mayor said, okay, you can go and gather, but it has to be outside. And so there was a tennis place that had converted on a tennis court. Still, they converted and made these makeshift pickleball and I went out and said, hey, this is a lot of fun. Eventually, chicken and Pickle opened in San Antonio. I went inside to that and I thought, hey, I really like this, and started playing there. Quite regularly. My wife and a non pickleball related injury broke her ankle and we were out for about a year. When I came back one year later, everything had changed. It was almost impossible to book a court. The age of the players had dropped 20 years in a year. It used to be forties and fifties and I walk in and now it's twenties and thirties and I was like, okay, something has really happened here. So I did a lot of research, looked at all the numbers and then I started saying, okay, we don't have enough courts and we don't have any indoor courts, and I was like I think we could do a good job at this. I was first trying to find a place to go play, and what it led me to is there's a need. Maybe I can solve that need. And then, in researching it in the state of Texas, san Antonio was lacking in indoor courts In the country. We're doing awful. Houston was the only city in Texas even on the radar for the number of pickleball courts, and the number of indoor pickleball courts they have more than anyone in Texas. They have more than almost any other city in the country. So that city had figured it out and I'm like we hadn't yet. And I'm like we hadn't yet and I'm like, hey, if you're going to do something and you're going to be different, one of the greatest ways of being different is be first, because if you're first, you're different. There's nobody else, right? And so so I dove in, found a great Dill. Dinkins is a national franchise and I believed in what they put together and and so I'm one of their first franchisees. I'm going to be opening up my first club here in about 10 days here in San Antonio, and I'm a regional developer, so I have the right to develop up to 20 clubs. Whether I open them or help somebody else who wants to run their own pickleball location here, I will be supporting them and getting them open, and I can open all of my clubs. Other entities can open all theirs. There will not be enough pickleball, because if I fill all my clubs up all 20 clubs open and they're all completely full that would only represent a fraction of 1% of the Bexar County population, and so there's room for everybody and there's room for growth. And that's kind of one of the reasons why I got into this is that I'm like hey plus, I love it. I have so much fun, and I'm going to tell you what running a property management business has been a lot of fun, but I really hope that running a pickleball business is going to be even a lot easier to have fun. We'll see. I don't know yet. Chris: Yeah Well, in 10 days you'll start to figure it out. Brian: Well, that's free, that's free week, everyone's coming for free, so they're going to love me for at least a week, for sure. We'll see what happens after that. Chris: Good strategy there. Yeah, I know. Look, we've worked with some entrepreneurs and developers here in the Houston area doing this right, developing pickleball venues with the bars and the food service, and that's where they did the market research. And even in Houston it's interesting to hear your numbers on the covered courts in Houston, kind of leading all cities but there is a lack of courts in light of the demand especially, you're certainly private clubs have taken converted tennis courts or extra space where they put in pickleball courts, but if you're not a member of that club you don't have access. And so for the general public to have access, things like what you're doing and chicken, chicken pickle, et cetera, and some of the maybe non-national brands just worn off local things there's still a ton of demand for that. Brian: Yeah, if you look at it, lifetime Gyms and LA Fitness have both decided they're going away from basketball and they're going all in on pickleball. And I talked to their national developer and I said why are you making this change? And they said well, basketball has led to altercations and fights and problems and pickleball equals new membership and so they're all in and you can see, most of them are converting them. I have a couple of Gold's Gyms in San Antonio that have converted into pickleball in their courts. It's just there's such a need, there's such a desire. A lot of people say they find a way to play, they'll play anywhere. A lot of people haven't played because they say it's too hard to find a place to play. So we're hoping we can be part of the solution to that and start giving lots and lots of options for people to come out and play and see how easy it is, how fun it is. The community that's built around this is unlike other sports is the community that's built around this is unlike other sports? It is. It is a unique game in which it is the most gender equal and age equal. I can go out on any given day and lose to an eight-year-old or an 80-year-old, and both of them could be a male or a female. It doesn't matter, because this is. It is the equal sport amongst all sports. Chris: Yeah, well, I'll say you know, given the timing when you're opening and the fact that you know we're in Texas, being covered courts is going to be a nice added bonus, because I don't think you want to be in the middle of summer outside on a pickleball court for too long. Brian: Well, they've been doing it for years. What I have to do is get them in here so they can see, and that's the thing about being different. So some things that are different with us is we have pro cushion courts. They're all individually fenced. We have special LAD court lighting that's designed specifically for pickleball. Of course, it's not windy in here. There's no rain, there's no heat, there's no humidity and, as you can see behind me, all the walls are black in the playing surface, and that's so. When you're standing on your court and your opponent hits the ball pops, you know it's coming outside. You don't see that. You got wind, you got heat, you got sweat, you got movement, you got craziness, and so that's where we've dove into being different and we're hoping it'll pay off. Chris: No, all true. I mean having played myself. You're right, if you're outside and depending on where the sun is, you may, it's sometimes hard to see the ball. Brian: Yeah, true, not in here. Perfect lighting, perfect temperature, perfect courts. And the one thing I get annoyed I'm a spoiled. I'm a pickleball snob. Now. I cannot stand playing on a court where the court right next door is not separated and their ball keeps coming into mine. I'm like I can't even play that way anymore. I'm, I've become a. I've become a pickleball snob. I expect to be able to get on my court and play my game and not be disrupted by anybody else. Chris: There you go, as every man and woman should have a right to right. That's right. So so you kind of bit this off as a franchisee. Let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the things that you learned about that process that maybe you weren't expecting that you could share with some listeners, and maybe a lot of people look at franchise opportunities. Brian: So I tell people all the time. So I've been involved in franchising in a couple of other ways. I went for about a four-year period and worked for a nationwide property management franchising company called Property Management Incorporated and I was up at the corporate level seeing. So I learned about franchising itself and people go why are you doing this, why should I do this? And I would give them reasons why. If you're already running your business, you already know what you're doing. You don't need a franchise when you're starting out from brand new and you have no idea what you're doing and you're not really sure how you're going to do it. You have to consider that Anyone can do the business on their own right. Even me, I could have opened this on my own. But do you know how much stuff I didn't know about pickleball that I learned from my franchise organization and the attention that it has drawn me? You have to figure out when that might be right for you. I think that there's been a lot of benefit of doing that. But you got to examine them all. I went and looked at every existing franchise when I started to do this Now. Since then, there are five new Pickleball franchises available and I'm sure there'll be five more in the next six months. So there are a lot of choices. I looked at them all, I checked into their history, I interviewed, expect what they need to do, and then I went and did a discovery day in Columbia, maryland, to find out what was Dill Dinkers all about, and a big part of it is who is the leadership? Who's going to be guiding you? Who are you going to be working with? And I absolutely loved the people that were involved, and that's a big part of this. You're going to be in business with them at the same time, and so this made a lot of sense for me. They were structuring in a very smart way of doing it, and they're the fastest growing Pickleball franchise that's out there, and they've sold 27 regions across the country. They've made great strides at improving everything that we do the play site cameras that we talked about earlier, with the AI involved that's something that's new. The pro cushion courts that's new from when we first started, and now all of our pro shops are powered by Pickleball Central, which, again, is also something new. So when you look at a franchise, it's like, yeah, they exist, but what are they doing to evolve? What are they doing to be different, because you're going to rely on that and work with them to show them how else they can be different. I decided this was the way for me to go and by being a regional developer here in town, I have my first one opening, I have my second one already under construction and I've got 18 more to go, but I'm probably not going to open all 18 of those. So there are opportunities right now and the way Jill Dinkers is, they have your corporate staff, but I'm the local representative. I'm here to help develop anyone locally. So anyone who wants to open one here has me helping them, and I've already gone through all the pain and suffering of what does it take to open a place. I know all. I know what you need to do to have it happen. They taught me what they knew. Now I've experienced here locally in San Antonio. I know what's going to happen here. Those are some of the advantages when you start looking at franchising and say, hey, I want to do a business, I don't want to do it alone, I don't want to start and it's tough. There's things you've got to know to be successful right out of the gun and you may not know everything on your own, it makes sense. Chris: And I said there's the franchisors got to show that value right. The why you're going to be making payments and getting the benefit of some of their things. It occurs to me too, one of the advantages, at least to what you're doing with these indoor courts and just kind of looking behind you is that you could take advantage of some of the big box locations that have been abandoned right that there's every city has those where there was some store that has either now gone to a bigger complex but left that space behind it looks like that's what you can kind of take advantage of from a real estate perspective. Brian: Right and I figured, with my real estate background, that this was going to be a piece of cake. But let me just tell you, san Antonio is a healthy city. We don't have big boxes just sitting around empty. Finding the location was the biggest challenge for me, and that isn't true everywhere else. That's why I'm franchise number one, but I'm not the first franchisee to open, because there are people who found it much quicker. The gentleman up in Pennsylvania went on his very first visit and found two locations and has opened both of them. One of them has 17 courts inside with 75 foot ceilings and no columns. Wow, I think it was like an aircraft hangar at some point. It was an indoor soccer facility for a while and it is like the perfect layout for indoor pickleball. But he found it in one visit, found one landlord, signed two leases and opened them both up. I have been to hundreds of places because I have to have the right hype, I have to have space between columns. I got to have air conditioning, I got to have bathrooms and I got to figure out, you know what's it going to cost to convert the place? And in San Antonio we don't have a lot of space just sitting around empty. Well, that's a good problem, it's good, it's good for the city. I mean, I found this one and I found my second one and I'm continually looking and there will be more opportunities and there will be more opportunities and there will be. Yeah, I think the strange thing in my city is we have probably the most vacant space in our city is industrial space. There's industrial warehousing all over and it's all empty and they don't want to talk to me yet. But they're going to one day they're going to say you know what I'm tired of being empty. Maybe we should talk to these pickleball guys, because it's the perfect layout giant empty buildings just sitting around empty. One day, when I can start turning them into pickleball, then the life's going to be real good. Chris: For sure. So just real quick, though, I want to ask about you kind of just as a leader right, your leadership style and how you think that's evolved over time, and kind of what you've learned maybe about yourself and about leadership in the process, in that journey. Brian: You know I learned leadership pretty young. I mean I go back and think about it and say you know, my dad was in the military. I was a military brat. We were all part of scouting. That was you start learning leadership and scouts right. I joined the Air Force myself, I served time in that and that the leadership is pretty well defined there. I mean, you know you can grow into being a good leader through that process. But in the military leaders comes with rank. Sometimes you don't really you haven't earned it, but you get it because you wear the rank and there's a difference in just knowing and understanding. And in that I learned I'm like if I want to be a leader, I've got to earn the right to be the leader of other people. As I started growing my own business, the challenge was I know how I want everything done. I like it done. A certain way. Most entrepreneurs are type A personalities we got an idea, we're going to run with it, we want to do it and no one could do it as good as we can. Well, you're going to be awful lonely and awful small if you think you can grow business all by yourself. So lesson you have to learn is how do I surround myself with people who make me better, who fill in the gaps of the things I'm not, and how do I let go and let them lead? So I've learned to invest in my staff and invest in them being leaders and letting it go. And remember, if you get from point A to point B and it doesn't cost any more money and it isn't illegal, does it really? And it doesn't use up any more time, does it really matter if they got there different than I would have? And honestly, it doesn't. But that's a lesson I had to learn. I was not very good at it, so my wife and my kids pulled things out of my gripped hands because they were like you got to let this go or we're never going to grow. And then you look back later and go wow, I'm so glad I did that. I mean, they're doing a better job at it than I ever did. And then you just have to make sure you're continually watching over what you're doing right, building good systems, checking on what you're doing, investing in your people, which means spending money on them, spending money to educate them, spending money for them to go out and try things, and also, don't be scared to try something. It's probably one of the biggest lessons I've learned Don't be scared to try something new that no one else has tried, because they're not all going to work, and I can tell you some of mine that were absolute failures. You figure it out, you go eh, switch back, we're done. But the ones that didn't work grew the business, made me money right, made us more efficient, and not being fearful to just change, adapt and be different is a big part, and when your staff sees that you're willing to do that and you're encouraging them and you're investing in them and you're giving them the ability to lead, you'll be surprised what they can do for you. Chris: Right. Well, so first, thank you for your service and second, yes, I think part of that for me is you can't be scared to fail, nervous. And second, yes, I think you know part of that for me is you can't be scared to fail. Uh. So if you don't take any chances, you won't learn, you won't grow. So you've got to be willing to do that and be observant of is it going well, is it not? Do I need to pivot, do I not? For your business and for yourself? Right? Brian: and you have to listen to your staff around you, because at certain point when you grow a business effectively, you start to get out of the day to day, and so you've got to check on it, you've got to hear from them, you've got to build on it and you've got to give them the ability to tell you maybe it is time to pivot, maybe we need to do something different, maybe there is a need out there, even though you didn't recognize it. They need to know. They can bring it to you and you'll listen Doesn't mean everything is going to change, but you give them a chance to speak it up and then it's out there and then you talk about it, and we do that regularly and it really changes the business when people have the freedom to bring up ideas and not be afraid of it. Chris: So let's move from the business side of things to just personal. Tell me what's your favorite part about San Antonio and why you decided to call it home. Brian: I moved here with my dad. He got stationed here when I was 13 years old and this has been my hometown almost ever since I joined the Air Force and I did leave here and I missed it all while I was gone. There's something about the community here in San Antonio the people, the events, the city that I missed. I've lived in other places. I don't think I ever missed not being there as much as I missed being here, and so this is truly my hometown. I love the city, all that we have going on, the fact we continue to grow and get big but we still feel like a small town Never and there's something for everyone. There's everything you possibly can want to do. You can do it here. I mean, we're in the middle of Fiesta. It's been going on forever, but there's still something in Fiesta that I still probably haven't even done. As many times I've gone out and done things and it's exciting just to be involved in that. I've been a Spurs fan since I moved here. I actually saw the Spurs as soon as I came back. We were coming back from Italy, moving to San Antonio, and the Spurs. I was 13 years old. The Spurs were in the Eastern Conference Finals against the Washington Bullets and they were up three games to one and I watched them lose the next three games and then not, and then I followed them and we didn't make it back to a conference championship for 20 years in 99. And then the next 20 years was a good payoff. We had a lot of fun and won a lot of games. Chris: So this is my town. Brian: I love my city. I love all that we do here. Chris: Yeah well, it's definitely spent enough time there to get a feel a very unique and welcoming culture and vibe. You mentioned Fiesta, but I don't see any badges on you. Brian: They're on sale at the front counter. Gotcha yeah, I actually was we made one, we've made one, we've traded some. A few people have bought them and it's a fun part to be part of that when you run a business in San Antonio. Chris: For sure. I've had the benefit of being there for a week on business during Fiesta and learned the whole thing about the badges and the trading and still have them with me. That's a lot of fun. Brian: Yeah, last weekend one of my managers took them all, went down and was down there handing out badges and also handing out flyers about our business Just getting the word out and getting connections to both people and other businesses. It's a unique time when everyone's just willing to talk to you and get face-to-face and everyone wants everyone else's medals. The Fiesta medals are kind of a cool thing, yeah for sure. Chris: Okay, last question Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Brian: Tex-Mex for sure. I'll tell you this in traveling the country. There are other places where you can get barbecue. Maybe not quite the same, but there's some good barbecue out there. There is no good Tex-Mex anywhere except here. Chris: Yeah, yeah, I think it's a pretty accurate statement. Well, brian, I really appreciate you taking the time to kind of share your story, both on the property management side and Pickleball. Good luck with the grand opening coming up and look forward to seeing you guys succeed in that industry as well. Brian: All right, well, hey, great Thanks for having me on Great conversation. All right, take care. All right, bye, and there we have it. Special Guest: Brian Birdy.

Today, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey and Cindy Nguyen to discuss Oklahoma's Failure to Protect Laws. A few years back, Alexandra joined the show to discuss theses laws, and as a reminder, these laws allow for victims of domestic violence, mostly women, to be sentenced to longer jail sentences for failing to protect their children from abuse than the men who commit the abuse. Today, Cindy and Alexandra join the show to discuss the fight to reform these laws.   Guest Alexandra Bailey, Domestic Violence Survivor and Advocate Cindy Nguyen, Policy Director, Oklahoma ACLU Resources: SB 594: https://www3.oklegislature.gov/BillInfo.aspx?Bill=sb594&Session=2500   https://www.motherjones.com/criminal-justice/2022/08/failure-to-protect-domestic-abuse-child-oklahoma-women-inequality-prison/   https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/02/oklahoma-failure-to-protect-kerry-king-dave-rader/   Latest version of SB 594 (2/10/25) Taking out reductions for child abuse/neglect due to having to apply retroactivity for all of them Keeping reductions for FTP/enabling child abuse and neglect = 6 years Affirmative defense + retroactivity    ACLU-OK Research/Stats for FTP: 1 in 4 women convicted of failure to protect received sentences longer than the man convicted of abusing the child. 93% of those convicted under failure to protect are women. Almost half of the women convicted under failure to protect were experiencing domestic violence.   Key Stories: Tondalao Hall – 30-year sentence compared to the actual abuser receiving a 10-year suspended sentence.  Robert Braxton Jr. abused two of her children and broken multiple bones.  Released after 15 yrs, we have direct contact with her and she can help on storytelling for campaign.   Elizabeth Crafton – 20 year sentence  compared to the actual abuser receiving 11.  Chris Good beat Crafton's 1 year old while she was away at work. Crafton took her baby to the hospital but was accused of enabling child abuse.    Kerry Lalehparvaran – 30 year sentence compared to actual abuser receiving 18.  Boyfriend beat daughter and Kerry put herself in between the spankings.  ACLU of Oklahoma https://www.acluok.org/en       Contact Hunter Parnell:                                 Publicdefenseless@gmail.com  Instagram @PublicDefenselessPodcast Twitter                                                                 @PDefenselessPod www.publicdefenseless.com  Subscribe to the Patron www.patreon.com/PublicDefenselessPodcast  Donate on PayPal https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ Donate on Stripe https://donate.stripe.com/7sI01tb2v3dwaM8cMN Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show! https://app.reduct.video/o/eca54fbf9f/p/d543070e6a/share/c34e85194394723d4131/home  

2-10 minute high-performance clips delivered to you Monday & Friday from our top interviews I love incredibly successful people that still have the down-to-earth human touch. It is really enjoyable to talk with them and understand why they are who they are.  Today's guest is one of those people and yet so much more. Janice Bryant Howroyd is the founder The ActOne Group and she is the very first African-American female to found a billion dollar company, and yes you heard me right, a billion dollar company.   What is even more impressive about Janice is that speaking with her was like talking to an old friend. She is incredibly relatable and really a caring and authentic human being. Contact Info: Website: thebusinessmethod.com/ Apple Podcasts: bit.ly/TheBusinessMethod Google Podcasts: bit.ly/TheBusinessMethodGooglePodcasts Spotify: bit.ly/SpotifyTheBusinessMethod Amazon Music: bit.ly/AmazonTheBusinessMethod Transcript: Chris: Do you ever wonder how a billionaire thinks? How do they process all those crazy thoughts that go through their head on a regular basis? Well, I was curious, so I asked one. And the person I ask is Janice Bryant. Howroyd the first black woman to build a billion dollar company.  Want to hear what she has to say. Let's hop into it. Going back to what you mentioned earlier in the interview, when you talked about your mind bouncing around all the time, Ray asks, how does Janice keep her mind in check and stay focused when it's all over the place and you see the world as a kaleidoscope? Janice: Ain't trying to do that Ray for chance. That's a failure from your perspective. I have no interest in organizing this beautiful mess. I love it. I thrive in it. What I do have though is Discipline. Discipline around initiatives and discipline around behaviors. So I love for my, you know, I, if you go up in there, it probably looks like Einstein's hair. But I, I, I deeply, deeply enjoy letting all the light come in, let all of it come in. And then once I filter it toward an initiative. Or, or a team effort, then I believe, as a matter of fact, my team will tell you, , one of my quotes they most often use is discipline ain't a dirty word. It's not a dirty word, you know, so I think that helps balance if that's what you're going at. I'm a highly disciplined person. . Chris: What is your filtration process there? , you know, we all get crazy ideas and they bounce around our head and we want to start this like new side hustle or new business or new project. , what are the ones that, what's your process for finding out which ideas are legitimate and the ones you want to continue to work towards? Janice: Oh, great. So there are four questions I asked myself. One, and this is kind of formulaic for me, Chris, so I can rattle it off. One is what do I want from it? If I do it. What's the outcome? What's the goal of it? What do I want from it? The next question is, what do I want from it? In the next 12 months, depending on where your energies are already obligated, you've only got so much time in a day that you can give. Even though all of us have the same amount of time to work with. So what do I want from it? The ultimate? What's it going to do? What's it going to be? Then what do I want from it in the next, , 12 months? What will it take to get to the next 12 months? And that's a biggie because entrepreneurs tend to tend to be, , exuberant in our thought about our own capacity. And then the fourth question is, what value will it have? You know, I'm very interested in being certain that the space I occupy, I leave better than when I got there better is in quotes because we all can define it differently, you know, and so that's how I filter to get to does this idea stand right now. The other thing I do is that, okay, so I live with an iPad. I'm on an iPad right now talking with you. I love, love, love, love, love iPad. Yes, I own stock in Apple, and yes, I bought it when it was a really good deal, but I love iPad anyway, and it allows me to do so much. And my notes section is busy. I am a fierce note taker. So I will write things down in my iPad and then I have a regular check in system where I go back. Is it still as clear to me as it was when I wrote it? If it's not, check, you know, and I move it. And so I systemize. ideas that come into my mind or initiatives. I also do that with asks when people are asking things of me, I do it that way as well. Mom used to do it much less, uh, complicated. She would say, oh, I'll come back to it later. If I can't remember what it was, it's gone. Or if it's burning at me and turning at me that I got to get back to it, then it's up there. You know, I think some people call it putting a pin in it. Chris: Yeah, I always tell myself if the idea keeps coming back to me, it means something that I should work towards or something I should implement. Janice: It can, it always doesn't mean that though. Sometimes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, seriously. Sometimes it's the gateway to something else. Chris: Good point. Yeah. Good point.  And boom. There, you have it. You guys, Janice Bryant. Howroyd I love this because I, and I don't know if you can relate often feel guilty because of this beautiful mess up here. My mind, my thoughts, not harnessing them better, not using them better, not being more productive. And sometimes, , our minds can just go down rabbit holes.  And the next thing, you know, two hours went by and we don't even know, , what happened and we forgot the task that we're working on. And I love that Janice says that she loves this beautiful mess in her brain. She absolutely loves it. She says that probably it looks like Einstein's hair and she has no agenda or no care in the world to organize it.  She just lets it in. And filters it as best as possible. Absolutely. Absolutely incredible answer.  And if you guys take away anything, what are the four questions that you need to ask yourself? If you want to filter through all these thoughts in your head, right?  So what would Janice say? One. What do I want from it? Great question. Two what do I want from it in the next 12 months? Also a great question. This helps implement the short term thinking and also the long-term thinking. Is it worth my time and activity in the next 12 months. Maybe I should postpone it, or maybe I should implement it immediately, depending on what it is.  And three, the third question. What will it take for me to achieve in the next 12 months? Again? Revisiting that question of how much time and effort and energy it will take you to achieve this idea that you have in the next 12 months and the last question. And probably the most important. What value will it have? Will it raise the bar of my business. Will it raise the bar of my life will raise the bar of my relationships. Is it a priority or is it something that we can postpone until later? And I also love what Janice said about thoughts that are reoccurring, that you really think you should do. And I have this, I actually wanted to start a second podcast at one point. This was probably about four years ago. And I was just chewing on this idea for a new podcast and I thought it was so good and so juicy and it would be so successful. And I was convinced, , by another,, another podcaster, that's a good friend of mine and somebody I look to for advice like this, and he kept telling me, no, do not start a new podcast.  Do not start a new podcast. What he said is expand on your current podcast. And that's why now we have almost 200 high-performance episodes. So the high-performance are the short episodes. They're generally like this one, two to 10 minutes, , from the longer interviews that we do. And I took his advice and I'm very glad that I did. Cause I didn't have the time or bandwidth to run a second podcast and I'd be exhausted and that podcast would be stagnant now. So sometimes we have these great ideas. And like Janice says they're actually a gateway to something else.  It doesn't mean that idea is the actual thing. So. We're going to wrap it up there. You guys remember those four questions? One. What do I want from it to what I wa what do I want from it in the next 12 months? Three. What's it going to take for me to achieve in the next 12 months and for what value does it give?  Whenever you have a thought or an idea to do a new thing? We're going to leave it at that. You guys, if you haven't checked out Janice's episode yet. Please do you won't regret it? It's episode number 544. And interview with the 32nd richest woman in the world. Make sure you check it out.  If you like what you're hearing and you want to make sure you don't miss any of these tips, please subscribe. Here or here or wherever. Subscribe. Leave us a review and share with your friends.  We'll see on the next episode.   

On this episode, my guest is Sean P. Smith, an Assistant Professor in the Department of Culture Studies at Tilburg University in the Netherlands. Much of his research has focused on the relationship between social media and tourism, and how colonial histories shape today's ideologies and visual cultures of travel. The inequalities that result from many forms of tourism development, he argues, are intimately linked with how tourists create content for Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, and the ways tourists frame themselves in landscapes and alongside local residents often replay colonial hierarchies.Show Notes: Why Study Instagram?The Pre-tour Narrative (Edward Bruner, Raul Salazar)The Habitus of Tourism (or How We Got Here)The Promontory Witness (or that photo)The Logic of InfluenceEmptying the Landscape (John Urry)The Techno-Generational DivideMedia EcologyOther Horizons in OmanHomework:Sean P. Smith - Tilburg UniversitySean P. Smith: Twitter / X | Instagram | Google Scholar (Articles)Transcript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome, Sean, to the pod. Thank you so much for being willing to join us to speak about your work. Sean: Thanks very much for having me. Chris: My pleasure. I'm curious, Sean where you're speaking from today and, and how the world is, how the world might be housing you there. Sean: Well, it's very rainy and dark. I'm in the Southern Netherlands, an area called North Brebant, where I just moved less than a month ago.So, in many places of moving around, if so, getting used to this one. Chris: Sean, I found out about your work from one of the pod's listeners who sent in a link to one of your academic articles entitled, Instagram Abroad, Performance, Consumption, and Colonial Narrative in Tourism. Now, I've been ruminating on the effect that social media has on tourism, spectacle, surveillance, and cultures of disposability for a long time now.So I'm really excited to speak with you today. And [00:01:00] likewise parts of the podcast are shared via Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, so there's always this sense of kind of feeding the machine. unaware and perhaps more aware each time. And so first then, I'm curious why focus on Instagram in the context of critical tourism studies? What makes it different from say Facebook or Twitter?Sean: Yeah, that's a really good question Chris. I think with Instagram, in many contexts around the world, certainly not universally, but it's the social media platform that is most readily identified with not just tourism, but the way that people represent themselves engaging in tourism. It's very image driven.Of course, people do write captions, they do engage in other forms of storytelling, but nowadays it's mostly pictures and especially reels, arguably in the last few years. And for a long time, this [00:02:00] has been could almost say the dream work of tourism going back 200, maybe longer years. So even though today, I think you can find forms of tourism well represented TikTok to varying degrees on Facebook.Instagram, at least in many of the places where I've conducted research, is the place that one goes to both learn about places to travel and also to show how oneself travels.Chris: And I'm kind of imagining that we're more or less in the same age range, but I'm curious if on your travels, you mentioned just briefly that you had also spent time backpacking as a younger person and I'm curious if Instagram existed at the time and also if this dream work was evident to you in your travels.Sean: It was. I think I was relatively young when I got my first [00:03:00] smartphone, but certainly not as young as people nowadays. I must have been maybe 22 or 23. So I did have some years of traveling before I think Instagram really reshaped the way that tourism is done, not just for people that actually use this app, but regardless of whether or not anyone's ever downloaded it on their phone, I think Instagram has had a significant impact on the way that tourism is done. So when I first got a smartphone, I was in a period of my life where I was able to travel quite frequently and that was something that I was really pursuing at the time. And Instagram was a way that I was able to engage in a long running interest in photography, but also kind of a diary of where I had been, but certainly one that was legible and sort of visible to other people.And it was through that, you could say "performance" of travel that began to think a bit more critically about this app and other social media [00:04:00] platforms as well. And the way that it was reshaping tourism destinations. Chris: Mm. Mm. Yeah, you mention in your work this notion of the pre tour narrative.And I'm wondering if we could unpack that a little bit for our listeners and what part Instagram plays in this pre tour narrative. Sean: Yeah, I'm very happy to point that out, because I think this is, this is an important way to think about tourism, and that particular phrase I'm drawing on the work of Edward Bruner, who was an American anthropologist.And that's also been picked up in other realms to be identified as what other people have called tourism imaginaries, such as in the work of Raúl Salazar. So what this concept of the pre-tour narrative describes is that before people travel to a particular destination, they are exposed to [00:05:00] various forms of representation.And oftentimes this is very image based or narrative based. So we would see this maybe thinking back in the era before social media, images encountered in magazines and films, perhaps novels, other forms of storytelling, such as just talking with people who have been to places that one wants to travel.However, in social media, as it's become more integral to the way that people conduct their everyday lives, let alone traveling. It's become the dominant engine for the way that the pre tour narrative is formed. Many people who use Instagram as a space to learn about places to travel, they will encounter images of these of these places on this app or and not just sort of the way that it's portrayed, but what people do in these spaces, the people that live [00:06:00] in the places they're going to visit. So, this process of the formation of a pre tour narrative has really always been a part of tourism. But I think it perhaps it's if not accelerated, then certainly taken a bit of a different form with the advent of social media.Chris: So on some level, it's not just the question of what you're going to go see, but also how you're going to see it, how you're going to stand in front of that tower or restaurant and see, experience, what's there. Sean: Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Chris: And I know it's a little early in the interview, but I'd like to jump into the heart of the matter and your critiques, if we can. You know, you wrote this incredible article Landscapes for Likes, capitalizing on travel with Instagram. And, in that article, you wrote that, deep breath, "Instagram's networked architecture and affordances produce three [00:07:00] outcomes that circulate and magnify utterances about travel to a degree impossible in pre-networked media.One, a mediated travel habitus hegemonically informs prevailing aesthetic norms. Two, the scalability of embodied performances entrench the motif's narrative underpinnings. And three, the monetizable market of Instagram encourages neoliberal notions of the branded self." Now that's a beautiful mouthful. And so I'm wondering, if you might be willing and able to flesh out these three outcomes for our listeners. Sean: No, that's brilliant. And it's nice to talk about these things, perhaps when they're written that can be quite a bit denser.So maybe we can start with the first idea, this mediated travel habitus. And with the word habitus, I'm trying on the work of [00:08:00] the French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu, who theorizes he's talking about class and culture and ways that people display their belonging within a particular class.And the reason that I'm looking to Bordeaux here is tourism and travel, really, it's important to look at this as a practice that has been connected to what Bordeaux might call the pursuit of distinction, to the search for an acquisition of cultural goods. You know, we might think of cultural goods as being a painting or a taste and a particular kind of music, clothes, certain way of speaking even. And when one amasses certain, certain cultural goods, and they're recognized as being part of the upper classes, being marks of somebody who is [00:09:00] sophisticated, somebody who is typically from a fairly privileged financial background, these cultural goods are desirable.So, this background I think is important because tourism from its modern beginnings in the 18th century has been obtaining these experiences and often physical artifacts that can be a way of claiming a certain social status. So, maybe you've discussed this in other podcasts already, but, when the Grand Tour began in the 1600s, but really took off in the 1700s there was this process in which the aristocratic men, young men, were sent on a tour around Europe, and they would go to capitals like Paris, later Vienna, and then especially places like Rome, and, where they could encounter the remnants of the Roman Empire and classical learning. [00:10:00] And this was meant to do a few things in the first sense. It was meant to introduce them other parts of the world, to certain historical understandings. They could refine their Latin. They could get better at French and then they could go home and be recognized as a sophisticated member of the aristocracy. And this practice really became quite popular up until about the turn of the 19th century, when it stopped briefly because of wars on the European continent, and then after the Napoleonic Wars ended, it basically exploded. So when we think about over tourism now in 2023, this was, you know, 1815, 1820s, and this was a period where all of a sudden there were more tourists than ever before.And what that meant is this practice, which had only been done [00:11:00] by the wealthiest classes, was now something that the middle classes could engage in and that produced a kind of anxiety, where how was one able to become a distinguished or sophisticated traveller. How was one able to obtain the cultural goods provided by travel if everyone was doing it?So, the habitus of tourism, the kind of implicitly learned practices and sensibilities that developed during the Grand Tour experienced this period of challenge where people had to look for a way to find distinction by other means. And I think this beginning led to this friction where now you see people who are trying to go places that no other tourists go, trying to take pictures that no other tourists have taken, trying to be the only person in a picture of a [00:12:00] famous place. So this way of understanding how to be a tourist has become enshrined in the kinds of images that we see in a space like, like Instagram to the extent where I think these images are circulating the ideologies of tourism. The scalability refers to, in social media studies, the way in which a single image can achieve a degree of circulation that is not really possible in pre-networked media. So, by networked media, we can think of platforms like Instagram. We can think of Twitter, anything where the possibility of likes and retweets or reposts achieves a degree of visibility what we might call going viral.So what I was writing about in that article was this particular composition called the "promontory witness" where you have typically one [00:13:00] person who's standing on a promontory or we can say the edge of a cliff the top of a building, in front of a waterfall and they're looking really, really small as compared to the vast scale of nature.And people see these images and they understand through the mediation, the widespread circulation of these images, that this means something important about travel. This is what I mean by the mediated habitus of travel, that taking an image like this and being a person in a promontory witness image has a particular value. It is a way of claiming distinction, again, in Rodrigo's terms. And by taking a promontory witness image, one is able to circulate that image on Instagram in a very different way than before the social media platform existed. So, you know, we think about images circulated in tourism before Instagram.It would either be, say, in a family photo album. That people used to have projectors. [00:14:00] People used to maybe send holiday pictures to family and friends, basically whoever they could, you know, show it to, but this is a really, really small circulation, unless somebody was able to get an image in a magazine or some sort of formal publication. But what really shifts with scalable social media is that somebody can take an image and there really is the potential to go viral.I think in Instagram, the potential to have an image seen by a really significant number of people is less than on a platform like Tik Tok. But there remains the possibility if I post a promontory witness image and I put a geo tag in a place that is particularly trendy at this, at this moment and I put the right hashtags that thousands of people can witness this image and because of that possibility, I think there's a degree of enlistment, a degree of interest in [00:15:00] participating in this trend because taking a promontory witness picture is going to have much more possibility of going viral of leveraging these architectures, these scalable architectures.Much more so than if it just take, if I take another image that isn't so popular on a platform like Instagram. Chris: Thank you. Thank you, Sean. Yeah. So there's, there's a lot in there I'm going to come back to in just a little bit. But I wanted to just finish off this one last part because you kind of, you know, mentioned it a little bit.The monetizable market of Instagram that encourages neoliberal notions of the brand itself. And, you know, I pulled this, this other sentence from one of your articles where you write that "as a banal mediator of travel and tourism, Instagram can encourage tourists to imagine themselves as a capital generating brand." Sean: It's really a comment on the attention economy structure of social media platforms, [00:16:00] where I want people to see my pictures and I want to get likes.And I say that very much as being somebody who continues to study social media and tourism from a critical angle. When I post something I'm always aware of how it's going to be received. Some part of me, even when I'm very aware of the issues with thinking this way potentially is I always want it to gain more visibility.If I post something and it has less likes than something I posted previously, this will likely incur some degree of thinking, what did I do wrong? What could I have done differently? You know, maybe I'm just produced such interesting content. And what I think is really taking place there is that we're constantly thinking about ways to achieve visibility in a way that is not dissimilar to the kind of negotiation that celebrities and [00:17:00] other public figures have to go through when managing their, what we might in today's terms, call their brand, where because there is always this metric of how popular one is or how visible one is in the form of likes or in the form of reposts or retweets or what have you it's means that we develop a way of always orienting towards this possible public. We're always thinking about the people that are going to see whatever kind of thing we say online, and we, I think much of the time, are hoping that it's going to be received.If not, you know, people are going to like it, if it is going to maybe change the way that people think about something, if it's going to influence them in some way. And Instagram, of course, is like other social media platforms, is monetizable in the sense that when one gets a lot of followers, you know, if I continually create fantastic travel content and I get tens of thousands or more followers, then [00:18:00] that means that I am able to start making money from it. I'm going to be paid by different companies to come and stay at a resort or go on some sort of guided tour and take an image or make a reel of this experience and post it on Instagram, talk about how great it was, and then tag the company.And that's a way of them bringing in business. This is how advertising works. So, people become advertisers. But even before that influencer level, I think those of us who are not influencers, and I am certainly not, there's a degree to which we are participating in this logic because even if we don't have any designs of becoming influencers, we still want our posts to be liked and this ultimately influences not just posts we make, but the kind of traveling we do and the kind of relationship we have with the places to which we travel.Hmm. Chris: Well [00:19:00] contentious at the very least. But thank you for that, Sean, for being able to flesh that out for us. And I'd like to return back to this notion of the promontory witness, and you know, because even before Instagram I remember seeing in my backpacking years, these same photos, right?The photo of the person, of their back to the camera facing the open horizon, you know, whether it be a cliff face or a desert or whatever it is, and spreading their hands or arms and, just this kind of emanating freedom, I guess.But you also mentioned that this kind of perspective, if you want to call it that, manufactures emptiness because there's nobody else in the photo, and this is so much a part of the kind of sometimes they're Instagram reels, or sometimes they're photos of people, what it looks like when people are at tourist destinations, actually taking the [00:20:00] photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, or the Great Wall, or the Leaning Tower of Pisa, or whatever, and there's actually hundreds.And thousands of people taking the same photo or trying to, and everyone wants to have that photo without anyone else in it. And so, just a little preamble to the question again, in Landscapes for Likes, you write that "this manufacturing of emptiness privileges tourists as the sole consumers of a landscape, and with its residents hidden from view, a landscape is voided of its human and temporal context. Thus abstracted, place is relevant as little but a visual commodity." And then just another quote that I think brings a little something else to the picture is that "the promontory witness motif scrubs the landscape of the tourist destination of any sign of human habitation, but that of the tourist, singularly pictured in a position of mastery that confers [00:21:00] possession over the destination." And so there seems to be a kind of shared understanding in critical tourism studies that modern and especially social media based travel photography emphasizes empty spaces, of course, minus the Instagram user, the person photographing question. And so I'm curious, why is identifying the emptying of the landscape so important for our understanding?What does it do to us as photo viewers? Sean: Yeah, that's an excellent question and I think I'm very, I'm very interested in this composition, which the lone tourist and the landscape, which, mean, other people before me have pointed to, and at least John Urry.And I think there are two things happening here. For one, it's the kind of picture that's due to the mediation of what we can think of as a travel habitus, due to the way that [00:22:00] people have learned about how to do tourism and to represent themselves doing tourism and the most sophisticated way or in the way that is the most likely to gain them social distinction. They take these images because they've seen these images before and they're attractive images as well. Maybe they're attractive because we have, through seeing so many pictures like them, we've been taught or sort of subconsciously imbibed the aesthetics as being something that we value and are attracted to.One degree of what's of what's taking place. And to another extent, when it comes to this notion of possessing something of being the only person that that goes there, this kind of image of the tourist being the only person in a landscape or in front of some sort of cultural monument is , a way of [00:23:00] claiming a symbolic status, which links back to this ideology of getting off the beaten track. So, I imagine if you're experience backpacking and my own there's a real interest in getting off the beaten path, of going to places that aren't touristy, of being a traveler and not a tourist. And part of the way that the success in getting off the beaten track is signified is being the only person in a photograph.You know, we as backpackers or tourists don't want to be associated with other tourists. And there's very little better way to represent not being another tourist than being the only person in a particular image.Chris: Yeah, it [00:24:00] makes you wonder. And putting together the research for this episode, I came to this, this kind of possibility, question, consternation, And it arose in this way. And so the, the next question, which kind of relates to the last one is, do you think there might be, or is a connection here between the emptying of the photo of humans or locals and the emptying of places of humans and locals, and that is in the context of the gentrification of local people and culture in tourist destinations. Sean: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's a very good point. I think especially because gentrification is aesthetically produced through a kind of emptiness or a kind of minimalism. And this gentrified neighborhood is not something that is crowded. It is not some place that there are a lot of wayward signs, [00:25:00] wayward, quote unquote.It is a space which is typically designed according to what might be understood as a globalized regime of clean lines and interesting fonts and a lot of white space. So thinking about the way that that works and everything from upmarket coffee shops to designing neighborhoods that are meant to attract capital on upper middle class consumers and residents.I think that does link quite persuasively with this desire to be the only person within this landscape. I mean, what ultimately is taking place in both processes is that, no matter where somebody is going and taking a promontory witness picture, there are people who live there. There's people who've always lived there and been a part, in many ways, of the land that is being made into a landscape.And by not including [00:26:00] them, within these pictures or in processes of gentrification, actually through state-sanctioned programs or other forms of state-sanctioned investment, local residents are being pushed out to make way for different people, the tourist in this case. There is a process of erasure and, and often what can be conceived as really a very colonial process of taking over, taking over a space and privileging the owners of capital, who in this case, typically are tourists.And of course, it's a little bit different when you're taking a picture versus when you're taking a picture in a place that is not considered part of the Global North. But tourists typically have a lot more privilege and financial resources than local residents.And when they're not in these images, but the places in which they are are included, then at least when we're seeing pictures of it, how [00:27:00] do we imagine who, who controls the space? How do we imagine who has a right to this space? It would be the person in the photograph, the tourist, rather than the people who actually live, work, and, and shape these landscapes.Okay. Chris: Since Instagram tends to be the go to medium for these images and for images in general, as far as social media is concerned, do you think that Instagram then is a tool and driver of gentrification? Could we say that with a sense of coherence? Sean: I think it's as much a tool as, as many other tools and it is very easily leveraged to that end by actors who are seeking to mobilize processes of gentrification. And then I think this is pretty well documented for instance, in Yoo Jung oh's article Instagaze, Aesthetic Representation and Contested Transformation of Woljeong, South Korea.Well, she was [00:28:00] writing about Jeju Island in South Korea, and how once tourists started to take particular forms of images often of being one person in a beach, then different interests were able to move in and realize the value of this image and find ways to capitalize on all of the tourists that wanted to come and take that same image. So what that led to was the beach front where, this is largely a fishing community and other sort of small scale, more artisanal economies, was remade into cafes and restaurants and guest houses in a process that.I think it can be widely recognized in tourism development around the world. But what the author, Yu Jung Oh, is saying, is showing there, is that this was largely motivated by the ability to take this image, that [00:29:00] a tourist could go and purchase a coffee or something, and they would be able to take that image for their Instagram. So there's a really clear linkage there and I think that linkage can be made in many other places as well. But I think in that sense, Instagram and social media is, is can be leveraged for gentrification as, as many other tools can be and are being.Chris: Thank you, Sean. And so, know, for the rest of our time together, I'd like to kind of lean on you a little bit for your personal opinion. I know that sometimes working in and living in academic worlds that's kind of something to be left the doorstep before you walk in. But you know, you mentioned this notion of networked media and pre networked media and kind of social media falling into this wider term of networked media and since these mediums have only come to exist, in terms of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, [00:30:00] we're talking 15 years at the most, and then the extension or prototypes of those existing in the previous 10. So about 25 years, maybe. And I'm curious in this regard you know, I imagine that you're about my age, maybe a little bit younger so I'm curious if you have a lived memory of how things were before social media and perhaps even before the internet, what do you think we might be losing by virtue of not being able to remember the world without social media Sean: yeah, great question. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, very good question. Very, of course, fraught. So I guess for context, I was born in 1988. And. So I, got a cell phone at 16, and again, I got a smartphone and Instagram and WhatsApp. So I'm really in two minds about this. And in the first sense, I think it's important to be aware of [00:31:00] how with any new technology there's a great deal of anxiety and resistance and what might be called panic. And this isn't just social media or it's not just television, but we can go all the way back to radio, to novels.People were worried about that, to the written word back in the ancient Greek era. People were concerned that when we start writing things down, this is going to make it very difficult to remember things, and we're going to be less successful orators and our reasoning will be diluted because we start writing things down.So there's always this kind of fear of new technology, and part of me wants to recognize that this is just another one of those periods in which some sort of transformative technology comes along and many of [00:32:00] the generation who can remember what it was like beforehand is going to feel varying degrees of nostalgia for that period.That said, it's also difficult to not, at the same time, say that something really significant has, has, has happened, to not feel, I mean, honestly, I do certainly feel nostalgia for periods before social media. Some of the things which I think have been changed is the interest in finding ways to represent oneself, traveling. And this isn't to say that whenever one goes somewhere, one is always sort of seeing it as if from the viewfinder or, well, it wouldn't really be a viewfinder of a camera so much as, you know, one's phone screen.But that leads to. In being very interested in taking images that would be successful within the attention economies of a platform like Instagram, it can be difficult to [00:33:00] not see the world as if from the perspective of what would make a good picture for Instagram. There's a lot of different people who've come up with critiques of this process.I mean, if you think about it in terms of spectacle, you know, like Guy DuBord's idea that we're no longer, and he was writing in the 60s, you know, that we are seeing relationships, not between people, but between people and images. And so some sort of fundamental human connection is being lost because all we're doing is just relating to images and using images to relate to other people.I'm not so sure about universalizing that idea, but the ubiquity of social media and the Challenges to not somehow be on one of these platforms, in some even practical way does mean, I think, that there are significant influences in tourism as much as anything. Chris: Yeah, my my phone died the other day, abruptly. [00:34:00] And you know, I still have this computer that thankfully allows me to have this interview with you. And I can still access Facebook and Twitter, but for whatever reason, I can't access Instagram. And you know, it's been a few days and I'm really loving it.And then this morning I realized that I had planned to upload a post for the podcast. And then I was just like, okay, well, my best recourse of action is to just stay calm and wait, right? Yeah, and it's a big question, and I think it's something that, I wonder if young people, say people born, you know, 2000 or after would be able to answer with, with any, without having lived in a time without social media, for example. And so this kind of like brings us a little bit towards the towards theme of media ecology, which, you know, we talked about just very briefly before we started our interview here and I had taken Andrew McLuhan's Understanding Media [00:35:00] Intensive last year.He was also on the pod in the, in season three and just generally speaking for our listeners media ecology, within media ecology, the focus is on the medium and not just the message. It's a way of taking to task the context of our technology and not just the content.And so this manufacturing of emptiness of people and places as brands and I'm curious, isn't this to a large extent, also contingent on our tools, on the limits and architecture of the camera, for example? You know, do we stop with Instagram or do we look at all social media and later all tools? Because these media exist within each other, right?Instagram is a medium within the internet, I suppose, and then the internet is a medium within the phone. Maybe you could make that argument. It's not to say, if we didn't have these things, if we didn't have Instagram, if we didn't have [00:36:00] social media, would the promontory witness just disappear? I don't think it's as easy as that. But Would it be as intensely magnified in our time? Sean: So yes, I think the question of magnification is really what sits at the heart of social media because if we're looking at the medium of Instagram, then we have to think about photography and which was invented in the 1840s.And then if we think about photography, we have to think about painting the way that landscape has been represented in many different cultures, both in painting in the Western, Chinese and many other traditions, but then also in poetry and literature. So with all of these things, there's a precedent.And I think if you look at something like the Promontory Witness, this composition and this the visual formation of having one person immersed within a landscape or standing at some edge of a cliff, that's been around for [00:37:00] 200 years at least. You can see some in the later 1700s that look like this, but then the desire to be the only person in a particular place to have gotten off of the beaten track and be the distinguished traveler, that's also been around for, for a very long time. So that's why I think I'm hesitant to sort of pin the blame on Instagram.And I think my thinking around this has taken a bit of it, not exactly a turn, but it's changed a bit. So I think there's a real tendency to look at platforms like Instagram as only being spaces in which processes of gentrification can gain momentum, or only be spaces where one is almost disciplined into being a neoliberal subject who, is working sort of subconsciously thinking about how to brand oneself all the time, specifically in places of tourism, you know, that it's a way that people [00:38:00] only think about the pictures. They only want to go take a picture in these places. They don't actually want to have any experiences in this place or relationships with the people there. And I think that really exists. That is absolutely one dimension of what takes place with social media platforms. But as many people I've spoken to say, social media is a double edged sword. And where that's really been driven home to me has been where I've been conducting research for the past almost two years now. Sometimes they're in person, other times digitally, in Oman, a country in the Arabian peninsula where I was interested initially because it was becoming more popular as an international tourism destination. So, I went there after the pandemic expecting to meet all these people who were experiencing the problematics of international tourism as we know well, I think from your podcast among other, among other spaces.And there's some of that, absolutely. But what I also found was that, in the past few [00:39:00] years, people who are living in Oman, and this is both Omanis, people who have citizenship and then also residents, so there's about 40 percent of the country is made up of people who don't have citizenship in Oman, like many other Gulf countries.And in the past few years, I mean, we're talking five years, maximum ten years, there's been this surge of interest in nature, or we can say is the non human or even the more than human environment and what's can be understood as domestic nature tourism, I think, like many places around the world, domestic nature tourism in Oman became was very popularized during the pandemic when people could not travel abroad. But what this meant is that people saw these images on Instagram and Instagram is really most popular app in Oman, next to WhatsApp, and that introduced them to parts of the country that they'd never [00:40:00] interacted with before.And Oman is this incredibly various and fascinating environment where there's mountains that are, you know, over 3, 000 meters higher, what is that 10, 000 feet you know, all of this coastline and with coral reefs and these waddies or slot canyons. And people began to engage with the environments in a very different way to go on hiking trips, to go on canyoning trips and social media was this massive part of that. You know, this is where people learned about this possibility, this is where people met people to introduce them, to take them safely into these spaces. They'd never been on a hike before. You know, Instagram is where they're going to meet somebody to go out into nature with.And it's not to say that this doesn't have problems associated with it, and everything I suppose related with tourism does, but I think it also represents a case where Instagram, in this sense, was a way that people are actively connecting to nature, and in a place [00:41:00] where, you know, Instagram existed and was widely used before nature tourism was a thing.And I think this kind of flips the narrative a bit where in Western Europe, where I'm sitting right now, for instance, there's been this long time practice of nature tourism, you know, going back to, again, the 1900s. You know, people started climbing Alps in the 1850s and so forth. And then Instagram comes along and everybody's saying, oh, people just want to climb the mountain to take a picture. you know, they don't actually care about nature. Well, in Oman, people weren't really, not that many people were climbing mountains, before the ability to take a picture existed. So, there's a bit of a different trajectory in which people began to relate to a particular space and to the kinds of experiences that one can have engaging in nature tourism.So in that sense to go back to your to your question about what do we essentially do with this platform? [00:42:00] And how do we address the problematics? I don't think that I mean, I think that Instagram will not be the most popular platform forever, certainly, but social media, or this kind of connected media, barring some kind of unforeseen complication. I mean, looking at you, AI. But this sort of communication is here to stay probably. So, can we find ways in which this space is can be generative of community could be generative of care and ethical forms of travel? What might that look like? And what kind of imagery might be associated with it?Chris: I'm curious in that regard, Oman to me is someone who's never been and probably, you know extremely ignorant to any of the nation's culture or history. I imagine modernity to be something of a recent arrival in that place, relatively speaking, correct me if I'm wrong, of course. And I guess what I'm curious about in the context of your research and most [00:43:00] recent research is if you've seen the conflicts that might arise in terms of traditional hospitality? What it means to be in a place, as opposed to a landscape, what it means to be a host, as opposed to, I guess a landlord, in the Airbnb sense of the word and perhaps also what it means to be a traveler as opposed to a tourist within the context of these new economic dynamics in Oman and if Instagram has anything to do with that? Sean: No, that's, that's a wonderful question. It's one I really appreciate as I continue to work there and spend time with people who've been incredibly generous showing me around and introducing me to what their life is like as people who participate in tourism. I mean, the first thing I would say is the Oman, the Arabian peninsula and really Arabic speaking cultures generally is hospitality is one of the most fundamentally [00:44:00] important things in social relationships. In what it means to be a part of this culture, one is hospitable to guests, to friends, to family members. It's almost difficult to understate how integral this is. I mean, it is, in many cultures, hospitality is big, but it's very big in this space.And so I think it's a particularly well suited question to, you know, how is tourism and how is social media impacting this code of conduct and, you know this really wonderful practice that I think, you know, the rest of the world can stand to learn a lot from.So, to your question about sort of where my mind sits in this span of development. Oil was discovered in the 1960s and kind of transformative effect as it has everywhere. And in this time, there was a great degree of urbanization. People could get services rather than relying on culture, trading, which comes from a pre oil economy.[00:45:00] Now, you see, I think, a couple things. For one thing, cultures of hospitality, I think, were already being disturbed by the way that neoliberal capitalism tends to work, not just in Oman, but anywhere around the world. It encourages people to find ways to profit themselves and to think as individual agents rather than as being part of a community, having responsibilities to the humans, but also nonhumans to the land as well as to one's family.So that process is already in it's already taking place before tourism began to take root. And I think there are some spaces in which tourism is developing in such a way that it's very profit oriented. And where people are incentivized to privilege [00:46:00] their own gains over those of others.However, there are other ways I think in which people who, say we're living in the city, are meeting people who live in fairly remote areas, under the auspices of tourism. Because they're engaging in tourism, they're meeting people who are living in these spaces and often chatting with them or sharing a meal or sharing coffee or something like this.Sometimes these people who are living in places that are becoming tourism destinations are part of the industry and sometimes people are not, but as it stands now, it seems as very much a preservation of hospitality within this, this particular context. As with anything, I think the question of tourism is to what extent this will become commodified or not, like how do we make money off of this culture of hospitality?How do we turn it into a tourist product? You know, we can sell Oman as being it's hospitable, come meet the locals. But in the way that people continue [00:47:00] to practice it, both people who are living in Oman and being domestic tourists and also people who are seeing tourists come to where they live in ways that they haven't before. To me, it still seems like it's very robustly in place.Chris: Good to hear. And I very much look forward to the publication of your research. Hopefully it'll see the light of day soon, perhaps. Sean: I hope so. Yeah. Things are in process for sure. Chris: Okay. Well, I'd like to thank you, Sean, on behalf of our listeners for joining us today. And you know, this leads me of course, to the question of how might they be able to get in touch with you or follow your work. And if that includes an Instagram handle. Sean: Yeah, that's, that's fine. So I I recently started another Instagram account. I had my own account and stopped posting about 2019.And then I got interested in it again. I opened a new account, which is sort of more research facing. So yeah, if people wanna check that [00:48:00] out, it's @SPSMITHS, so S-P-S-M-I-T-H-S or email spSmith@tilburguniversity.edu. So always pleased to hear ideas and of course things that I've missed because of course I have so much to learn in this space.So I would really look forward to feedback and ideas. Hmm. Chris: Well, I'll make sure all of that's on the End of Tourism website and the podcast page when the interview launches and as well as the other authors, researchers and works that you mentioned earlier on. So once again, it's been amazing, Sean, thank you so much for being able to really flesh these complex ideas out for us and we'll see what happens, right?Sean: Absolutely. Thanks very much for the invitation. And as always, I'll look forward to continue listening. This is such an excellent project. Chris: Thank you, Sean.This episode and others like it are created and made possible by the generosity of Substack subcribers like yourself. Similarly, I have subsidized the work of the pod with my own time and money. This is a labour of love and lineage that requires the support of others. Please consider offering a gift in return, whether that include upgrading to paid subscription, making a one-time donation, sharing the podcast among your people or being willing to reach out and assist in production (as others have). Thank you. Bless. Peace. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I welcomed Jen Sudduth, CEO of Sudduth Search, for an insightful discussion on her journey in the executive search industry. Jen shared her story of transitioning from Taylor Winfield to launching her boutique firm focused on transformative growth companies. I learned how Sudduth Search crafts a supportive work culture that prioritizes both productivity and well-being. Our dialogue also uncovered nuances around balancing work responsibilities with life's pleasures. As we wrapped up, Jen reflected on life lessons from mentorship to her commitment to the Special Olympics community SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jen Sudduth shares her transition from Taylor Winfield to founding Sudduth Search, focusing on middle market private equity and emphasizing the need for leaders who can drive change. We explore the importance of having a business and marketing strategy before starting a venture, as well as considering when to hire based on company growth and values alignment. Strategies for maintaining work-life balance in recruitment are discussed, including setting boundaries and fostering a culture that supports employee well-being alongside business success. The episode delves into the comprehensive selection process for executive search, particularly for pivotal roles such as CFOs, and the role of retained search firms in this process. Jen reflects on the role of empathy in leadership and the importance of mentorship, drawing from her own experiences and her involvement with the Special Olympics. Personal joys, such as a preference for Tex-Mex cuisine and planning for sabbatical destinations like Maine and Santa Fe, are shared as part of achieving a joyful living. The conversation covers the initial opportunistic hiring during COVID and the shift towards a more strategic hiring approach to raise the team's overall expertise. Chris and Jen discuss the benefits of leaving a company the right way, honoring agreements, and how transparency can lead to unexpected opportunities. Jen advises on the importance of planning for success, not just the startup phase, by having operational projections and growth strategies in place. The episode also touches on Jen's past experience as Director of Talent at a consultancy, highlighting how internal hiring insights can improve external recruitment advice. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sudduth search GUESTS Jen SudduthAbout Jen TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode, you will meet Jen Sudduth, co-founder and CEO of Sudduth Search, a boutique executive search firm. Jen's advice to aspiring entrepreneurs is to be intentional and purposeful in your business planning, and don't forget to plan for success. Okay, jen, first off, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for being here. Jen: Thank you. Chris: So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. I want to start by just allowing you to introduce yourself and tell us what your company, Sudduth Search, is known for. Jen: Sure. So we are a seven-person boutique executive search firm, but I think what we do is a little bit unique. We work with the middle market private equity. Probably 75% of our clients are private equity backed. The other are public, private you name it individually owned, it doesn't matter. I think the common denominator with all of them is that all of the companies are going through some sort of transformation, and most of the time that's growth. It could have been that they raised capital. That's a trigger to bring us in and go and replace some of your leadership team. Could be some of our bigger companies going through some sort of culture change. We did 10 positions for a Blackstone-backed company and basically they wanted to pull from outside of their industry and they didn't know how to do that, and so we helped them come up with a concept of how to do that completely, you know, changed their recruiting processes from how they were doing them before, and then they brought in a whole new culture and that's what they wanted. They wanted a different culture than they had before. So it's just, it doesn't matter what the trigger is, but it's usually some sort of change, transformation. You need a leader that can drive that change right. You need someone that is fearless. A lot of times that can come in, and they're you. You know they can make things happen. Right and that's where we play most of the time. Chris: Well, what I find interesting about that is how laser focused it is what inspired you to kind of start a search firm that was so focused on that kind of niche industry. Jen: So I've actually done it for over 20 years and the firm I was with before was called Taylor Winfield. I only bring that up because a lot of people know Taylor Winfield. I started with Taylor Winfield and kind of worked my way up and that's what they focused on. They were more. You know that was 2000, so there was a lot of venture money out there, there was Silicon Valley and they worked a lot in California we did. I was just a lowly junior recruiter back then and that's where I learned the business and that's where I kind of learned that world. And it's not for everyone, both as a candidate and as a recruiter, because sometimes candidates will go well, what are they going to sell? Am I going to still have a job? I'm like, well, you're really not, you're not right for this, because that's not the mentality that we look for in a candidate. But so that's how I got my start and that's how I learned it. And then when I started this up my practice five years ago, I kind of I don't do a whole lot of venture. I have a few here and there. Usually they're a little bit more mature as a company. I think. As I've aged I'm not as patient with the venture. I think they've got a great thing going. But it's just a different world and I think sometimes those, the people that are willing to go and do something really earlier stage, are not the same people that I'm looking for the middle market series, b series, c type folks. So so that's how I had got into. It was really that's kind of what I've done my whole career. Chris: Gotcha. Well, I know that you started this company Suddeth Search around five years ago. Jen: Exactly. Chris: So you had to make some decision to leave and just start fresh on your own. Let's talk about that a little bit. What drove that decision? Jen: So the company that I worked for was actually owned by and I don't usually say this, so you're getting new information here by my stepmother, connie Adair, and I bring that up because she's fully retired now. She's been retired for about two years. But she brought me into the business, not as a multi-generational business. I had to earn my keep, earn my way Right, just like everyone else. She was very big on treating me like everyone else. Chris: The benefit for you that she did that. Jen: Absolutely and I learned from the best. She was really known as one of the best in the industry so I kind of got to see that world and that process. But she sold to private equity and it was a private equity roll up. Like some of them, it didn't go really well. The integration piece was a little rough. Chris: Not unique in that regard, right and I got no benefit from it. Jen: To be quite honest. I stuck around to try to support her and she did well. And then she got another bite of the apple and I tried for two years. I wasn't a big company person and I realized if I can make this kind of money for someone else, I should be doing it for myself. And so I kind of did it because I could, and she fully supported me. She knew that retirement was on the horizon and so when I told her she said you know, I think you should go for it. So that's what I did. Chris: That's great. Well, I mean good to have that encouragement for someone that you were close with but considered to be a trusted mentor Absolutely. So got to be a little bit trepidatious to just start out on your own, even though you know what you're doing and you, I think you can't do that unless you have confidence that it's going to work and confidence that it will work isn't a guarantee that it will Absolutely. But you know what were some of the things you did to kind of set yourself up in those early days of starting your own company, to try to pave the path towards success. Jen: So I will start with the fact that I had a very strict non-compete. I did not get any clients from the company or from her, and I am a devout follower of non-competes. Chris: Well, it's funny, you say that you bring that, yeah, you know, now we devise people, I mean literally every day, on both sides of those, and right because because they exist and obviously you know there's a lot of buzz recently because the ftc came out with the rule to ban them, uh, which is, you know, probably not going to take effect because lawsuits have already been filed to challenge it. Jen: But it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out yeah in the next, over the next few years, I think yeah, and not to say I don't think some non-competes go overboard. I have heard some ludicrous non-competes as I'm interviewing, so sure, I do think a lot of them go overboard. I think the fdc is in the is moving in the right direction with some of them, because I think they're a little too restrictive. Chris: But that's not your question yeah, and even as the rule's written, it doesn't apply to executives, so it wouldn't change your world. Jen: It wouldn't, and I'd been there a long time. Everything I got was under their umbrella. So what I did do was I planned for a long time. I've owned businesses before and so I had a business plan, I had a marketing plan, I had a strategy. The other advantage I had was that I had been I've been asked to be on the board of ACG and so that was a. I knew that was going to be great PR. It's gonna be great relationships there. That's how I met Steve Kasten here at the Boyer Miller and a few others, and so I knew that was coming. But it was pretty far out. You know my tenure had just started. Didn't know I was gonna be president, but I knew that was gonna be on the. I'd have a lot of visibility. So that helped quite a bit. I think that was one factor. Fun story unrelated to your question the day before I quit, the day before my last day, I gave like four months notice and they knew I was leaving. I was unwinding. I had some really big searches, so I was unwinding those and finishing those up for clients, kind of on the bench, but just doing that. So the day of the last day of employment I get a call from that client that I just mentioned wanted to change their culture Blackstone Back Company. He said I got 10 searches for you, jim. I said, well, I can't do them, I'm leaving, today is my last day. And he's well, I'm not doing it without you. And so I called the company and I said here's what's happening. Would you, would we, can we do a fee split? Didn't know that was coming, but that was really great cash flow. And they said yes, and so we worked out a fee split. I continued I worked with that client and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And then I developed brand new clients from that point on. But I knew the industry. I think the industry knew me. Chris: So even if it wasn't somebody, I'd worked before, I had a plan and I went after those people. That's a really cool story to hear and there's a lesson. There's probably many lessons, but one that just struck me right between the eyes is the lesson in leaving the right way, when you leave a company versus leaving the wrong way and you just laid out a roadmap for the listeners. If you're thinking about leaving, you left the right way, honoring your agreements, and then, with the transparency to get the slug of business for your new business, for your new company, because you went to them and said here's the deal, because you've done everything else right. It's good to hear that. I guess they could have not honored that, but they did the right thing in my mind too, yeah, by saying yeah, it'd be fair to share this and, by the way, we should. Customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. Jen: So customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. So, yeah, and I completely agree and I try to tell people and I know there's exceptions, I know there's bosses that are just difficult and if they know you're even looking there, you're gone. I know that happens, but I think majority of the time people are reasonable and if you come to them and sometimes I'll have friends come to me and say I'm thinking about making a change- Grass is greener Right and I'm like I know they're in a great situation. I'm like have you had a really difficult conversation with your boss before you leave, before you start thinking about? Have you told them that you're unhappy You've been there? Chris: 14 years or you've been there seven years. Jen: Have you talked about it? And usually the answer is no, and so I try to encourage them to say go talk to them first and then if it's still you know, in a month you still feel like it's just not fulfilling then talk about leaving. Yeah, but you need to give them a chance. Chris: It's great advice. People unfortunately right. It's kind of human nature to avoid the difficult, uncomfortable conversation, or at least I'll say this, the ones we perceive have it that they're going to be difficult or uncomfortable. And to your point, I think, a lot of times if you actually have the courage to go have it, they usually aren't as difficult or uncomfortable as you work them up in your mind to be. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: And you know I can speak. You know as well as you can. If you give your employer, where you've been otherwise happy for a while, the chance to have that conversation most people if there's a tweak or two that would keep you there, it's probably going to save the company a ton of money. To consider that. Jen: And it might benefit the company. Talk to them about. You know I'd really like to do more sales. You know I'd really like to take on bigger projects. You know what We've been looking for someone that wants to take on bigger projects. You just never know what the company needs. Chris: So we can go back. You mentioned, and just for the listeners ACG Association of Corporate Growth. Jen: Yes. Chris: Indice Group industry in the kind of M&A, a lot of private equity. So sounds like part of that marketing plan was to plug yourself in to the right kind of networking system where you would meet people and build relationships. Jen: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, and I eventually was asked to be president I don't know if you know that and so it was a lot of it was a lot of visibility as well. That's half the battle. Chris: Yes. Jen: Because there's a lot of top of mind search firms out there. Yeah, getting top of mind and helping them see that. I understand private equity, I understand what their challenges are. I understand what they're trying to achieve. I understand how capital's raised. You know I've got the knowledge base to be able to convey that to candidates and to help find the right one that's going to fit that. So I think that helped a lot and it's it was educational for me. You know, going to conferences, hearing panels speak. I know a lot about a lot or a little about a lot. Chris: Let me rephrase that I shouldn't admit that, but it's true, but it does. Jen: It's real educational to hear those conversations and to hear what's happening in the market. You know from your peers that are in the organization. Chris: A couple other takeaways from what you said. That I hope people listening caught is that you had a plan before you did this right, absolutely. You sat down and put it to paper a business plan, a marketing plan, a strategy. Look, I think those are so important and can be overlooked. When people say, look, I'm just going to go chase this dream, that's great because you need the inspiration, but you also need some substance behind it, because if you eventually do go to and most will go to a bank or an investor or something, they're going to be asking about that. So you better be prepared. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: So one of the things and you and I were talking about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know, you now have seven employees. Let's talk a little bit about you know. I think there's a few conversations. One is what was it that triggered you each time to make the decision Now it's time to take on an employee or another employee, because those are big investments and then how did you go about making sure they were the right fit? Jen: Yeah. So it was growth that predicated the need. That was the part I didn't plan was when am I going to hire what? You know what? At what point do we need to bring on another person? At what point do we need to bring on a junior person, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't plan that piece of it and I probably should have, but it was really just my bandwidth and being able to do what I needed to do. You know, we were super busy during COVID, which sounds really strange, but I had some. I had that one big client that was still going. I had just so, if you think about I had been in business for about a year and so that year I had been really busy doing marketing and business development and getting out there and making relationships, and so it just it paid off and I think a lot of those people one of my biggest clients I don't know if you know Dave Marchese, he'd be a good guest. Let's do it. He called me out of the blue in the middle of COVID and we had met like five years prior, but he had seen my posts and my marketing and my emails and so he said I can't go out. I'm not going to go out and interview five interview candidates, but we're in the or excuse me search firms because we're in the middle of COVID. So what you got Jen, and so I took it on, and we've probably done 15 different positions over three or four years. Wow, so he's one of our biggest clients. So there that, I think the prior relationships definitely helped us make it. You asked about employees, though. Chris: Yes, well, before we go there. Yeah, one of the things you so interesting. You said I didn't plan for growth. Yeah, probably should have. Jen: Yeah. Chris: So, looking back, what do you think you could have done in that regard that you might offer as advice to someone that you know is maybe about to do something similar that you did five years ago? You know, what have you learned? Looking back, to say I would have, if I was going to do it again, I would plan for growth in this way. Jen: Plan for success. I think I was so focused on how am I going to get there that I didn't say if, when I get there, if when I get there, how am I going to get to the next level? I never did that. I never said, okay, I can handle 12 searches, or whatever it is, at different in different phases. So if I get 14, what do I do? At what point do I, you know? Do I need to start hiring when I get to 9 searches, whatever it? So maybe it was a revenue. I think I should have projected and said, because I've been in the business a while, I know how many searches I can do by myself or with a team, and so I think that would have been very helpful to do kind of like an FB&A analysis, but on the operational side. Chris: Right, Very helpful, that's very helpful. Okay, so now let's go back to kind of set a search. You starting to decide I've hit the point, I can't do this all, I've got to bring someone on. Yeah, you know how did you go about sourcing. I know obviously you've probably had a lot of contacts, but you know just the whole process of how you interviewed to make sure they were going to be a good fit for your company. Jen: So my first hire, I got really lucky because she was a neighbor, a friend who got laid off during COVID and so we brought her on just to do some of this data pushing type stuff. She made phone calls, cold calls, she's fearless, and then she grew into being a really good recruiter. After that first hire it was, oh my God, I can't handle this. I just need a body that can help do, a professional person that can do all this. After that hire I was much more purposeful. After that it was we want experience. We want, you know, degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand you know degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand, you know. I think every time I made another hire I kind of elevated my expectations. Chris: Right. Jen: And not to say the first hire was. She was a phenomenal employee, but I think every time after that I was much more purposeful about how I, who I wanted to hire and what my expectations of them were. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense to me and you're right, it's not a condemnation of the earlier hires. It's if you're doing things right, I believe you're always learning and your processes can always get better, and it doesn't mean you didn't make bad hires before, but you can get more intentionality around the decisions you're making and I think that's part of growth and when you're a one person show or two because my husband did join me about six months in it's harder to attract talent you know, Now we're about to make an offer to a pretty senior person and we had a really good slate of people that were interested, that were like, yeah, I want to join a boutique firm, I want to do what you're doing. Jen: So it changes too. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Well, that's validating. So you've gone through this process of sourcing people for your company, right, and what have you? What has that process and the learning? Jen: through that done to help you better advise your clients or vet candidates for them. What else about that I'm actually gonna go back to. So I took about five years. I left the executive search world and went to a consultancy and they I was director of talent. We tripled in size in about five years time and then they sold to Accenture about two years after I left. When I left, I think oil and gas was zero. The barrel, the barrel. Chris: I remember that yeah. Jen: So they made a strong comeback and then eventually sold. But being on the inside like that was the best education I could get, because it was. This is what happens when you make a really bad hire. This is what happens to the entire company when you make a really good hire. And we weren't huge I think we ended up being about a hundred but but it was really helpful to me to see. I also learned you know really short tenures on people's resume. There's a reason you know, I know there's reasons that people have to leave jobs absolutely there's good reasons, but when it's over and over and over, and then you hire that person because you're desperate for a data manager or whatever it is. You're desperate for that skill. You're going to find out why they can't stay in a job longer. I learned a lot being on the inside, you know, and I think that job is really what taught me kind of the hard knocks of making a mishire. Chris: Right. Well, I think you're to your point, right, it's if you look there are red flags, pay attention to them, and I know from our we're not perfect either in this business that I have, and you know sometimes you can convince yourself to overlook a red flag here or there, and more times than not you shouldn't. Right, there's exceptions to every rule, but we don't want to run a business based on exceptions necessarily You've got to be purposeful about those hires is really what it taught me. Jen: You know very purposeful. Chris: So just to kind of come back to Sutter's search a little bit so you have seven, about to have eight, and you talked about doing a search for a client where it was a culture change. Let's talk about culture at Sutter Search. What are you, as the kind of co-founder and CEO, doing to try to cultivate a culture? How would you describe it? And what are you doing to kind of, you know, foster it and breathe life into it? Jen: Yeah, it's hard with seven people, eight people, you know, to kind of create that, because you're like oh, we're just eight people, but they need it. Employees need training, they need to be developed, they need to evolve, they need to expand and grow, and so we actually started EOS at the beginning of this year. Are you familiar with entrepreneurial operating system? Chris: Yes. Jen: I think I don't know if Allie was the one that told me about it, but you know I've heard a lot of business owners that have done it, and so we actually started it and I think it's been evolutionary and I'm not selling it, I don't sell anything they do but it has really helped us be very purposeful about what we're doing for our employees, and so my one of our other managing directors is. She's in charge of kind of the HR and training, and so we have a weekly training every single week and it's sometimes it's heavier than others, but we have a weekly training every week and one of the employees actually gives it, so they have to go out and learn themselves and then they come and teach the rest of us. I try to. I'm a big advocate in the old school headhunting world is just dog eat, dog work, and so when I started my firm I was like I don't want to be that way. We're not working 12-hour days, we're not working both coasts, we're going to have a great and I hate to use the words work-life balance because I know it's overused. Chris: That's right. Jen: But we are, we're going to edit that part out. I'm kidding it is overused, but I think in some aspects it's important because you're a better employee if you take your vacation, if you didn't have to work until 9 pm the night before, if your managing director isn't calling you at 6 in the morning because she happens to be on the East Coast that is not the culture that we have. I'm always telling them you're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your calls? Did you put your out of? We require out of office messages to be turned on and I'm just, I'm always preaching that. I really think it's important to separate yourself and give your brain a break, because what we do is very, it's very repetitive, it's very. You know you may, if you have ten searches, that you have four candidates at least on what we usually have a hundred, but you have four finalists going through to offer yeah you think about the ups and downs every single day. Chris: It's a lot well, I mean, to your point, what you're doing, I mean, has to be stressful because you're affecting people's lives. Absolutely right, you got four candidates and or maybe see this as a great opportunity and are very hopeful, and you got a, a client, that needs to fill a hole and every day they don't have that whole field, they're losing money. So I can get that yeah to your point, the work-life balance and we could do a whole podcast on that. But I think what my experience has shown, or at least what I feel like I've learned through that, is our work-life balance is different at different times of our career. So it's hard to institutionalize that when everyone's at different stages. We try to use the term more like professional development. Developing our people to be great professionals means you tend to your business, but you tend to you have a life as well and you got to figure out how to manage both in a healthy way, knowing that the way it works for me now is totally different than it was 15 years ago right and that's okay because everything changes and we have new employees here that are going through totally different life stuff than I go through now. but how do we help give them the tools, the training to manage that and still be successful both in the office and in their personal life? Jen: Yeah, and we do we have different? Everybody kind of has a different work methodology. I shouldn't say hours, it's more like hours, you know a 20-something. They like to kind of work late in the day and have their workouts in the morning or whatever. Like everybody's kind of different. And then Hazel and I are about the same age and we like to not be disturbed until 8.30 or something. You know, like we like to go do our thing in the morning and work out and whatever. Read the paper and everybody's a little different, but we are very understanding of each other's different lifestyles. Right To your point. Chris: The key there comes to communication right. Yeah absolutely Absolutely, and so do you have. What is it that you're using as such to make sure those conversations are happening? Yeah, so that people understand how each other works differently, but together you can work for success. Jen: Yeah, we talk about it when they're hired. I say I'm not going to track your hours unless your productivity is not working Right, and then we're going to talk about it. Do you have too of a workload? Or, let's be honest, are you not working enough? You know, because last week you didn't have very many searches. This week you've got a lot. So if I need you to work till six, you gotta admit that last week you didn't have to. And they're very honest with me. A lot of times they'll say, hey, not going to be online until 10 or so, but I'm going to be working late or whatever. Or I stayed up for four hours last night sourcing. So you know I'll be available on phone but I'm not online. Perfectly okay, and we're very flexible that way. It's a little hard sometimes. You know, I'm always like are you working? I'm on the back of my brain and then I have to call myself and go. Of course they are, it's not producing. Chris: So that comes down to two fundamentals no matter what industry, communication, yeah, and what you're willing to do is have what some people might feel like is the harder conversation or uncomfortable conversation, but you approach it with kind of support and transparency. Jen: Yeah. Chris: The other thing. It comes down to productivity. Jen: Yeah, right. Chris: Absolutely. If we're running a business, we're running a for-profit business. We have to be productive to make the business go. So you can't lose sight of that. Some people, I fear at times the extracurriculars overweigh what we do to make our money and what is our. You go into the. This is what fuels our economic engine. We can't lose sight of that. It won't matter how many out-of policies or things we do, we won't have a business to support it. Jen: So it's finding a balance there, right? Yeah, I'd say the common denominator with all my employees is they thrive on success. They thrive on accomplishing things. They're not going to just shut things off if they're not done and they haven't accomplished what they set out to accomplish. They're very driven that way. That's a common denominator. Chris: Very good. So a little bit about your business. So you were saying you know, middle market focused, we're kind of approaching mid-year 2024, which is like just blows my mind that we're, you know, that far into the year already. But you know there are businesses out there that either use services like yourself or maybe contemplating that, and I know, at least in your world there's at least two different ways to go about it Retain, searches or kind of the contingency model. Can you just share maybe a little bit about what each is, the differences, pros and cons, and maybe flow into what a company should consider going one versus the other? Jen: Yeah. So I want to make it clear that I am not pro or con. Either way, I think there's a contingency, there's absolutely a place for it. I have several friends that are in the contingency recruiting world and they say I will never be in the retained world. So there is a place for it and I think if you have a large number of hires, you have a position or a company that is attractive to candidates and you want to get all the resumes you can get and then choose because they want to come to you, that's great. You can use contingency. What we do is a consultancy. So if you're a middle market working with a middle market firm right now, it's a downhole tool. Cfo position this position is critical that they get it right because they have big plans. I'm not going to tell you what those big plans are. They're private equity backed and they have big plans and it's going to happen, but if they don't have a financial expert that can devote time and devote, then it's not going to happen. And so it's critical, and in that situation you absolutely need to find the best person that you can find, and you need to interview a lot of people to make sure that you are choosing the right person, and so that's what we're doing. That's where we come in, and it doesn't have to be a CFO role. We can do. We do VPs and we do directors sure directors but we're going to look at 150 people that we know could do this job, and then we're going to reach out to every one of them and then we're going to interview 20 or 30. I'm going to interview half of those and then I'm going to present and rank the top. So it's not like we're going out and finding five people that are qualified and handing them to you. We're going out and finding 10 times that many maybe not 10 times, but a lot more than that and then finding you the best and ranking those for you to interview. So if it's a critical hire for your company to succeed, I would absolutely recommend retained, because they should be a retained firm, should be a consultancy, they should help you find that person. Chris: So that's really helpful, and hearing you describe it makes the difference very clear for me. I hope for the listeners and what I hear is you're doing a lot more upfront work on the retained side and I guess, as a consumer of these services, you should expect that your retained firm will do a lot more upfront work and vetting the best clients to bring to you. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I think that's important for my clients to know is our database is completely open. Our kimono is open. Is that a bad thing to say? Chris: No, we don't have video, so we're good. Jen: They can see everything we're doing, when we're doing, how we're doing. It's not a we'll talk to you in a month or two and we'll give you three great people. There's no magic thing that happens like that. It's a database they can go in. They can be like ooh, I know that guy and not going to work. Chris: Right, whatever reason, work right, whatever reason. So through, I guess, an online portal that you give them access to. Jen: okay and so it's a process to get to the fine. We meet once a week and I say here's why we chose, here's why we interview these people. What do you think? And a lot of times I'll say you know what? That company doesn't hire well, or they might be an acquisition on the horizon with that company. We can't talk to their people, so we have weekly conversations that get us closer and closer to the best person. And so it's a process, it's a very thorough process that gets us there. But that's 15, 30 minutes a week from our client, that's it. Chris: Okay, Well, they have to be invested, especially in these that are so critical. The positions to fill the client has to be invested. That's right and I like the somewhat. Maybe it's not. It sounds innovative to me that you are creating that opportunity for them to vet and see what's going on whenever they want. Right, but have those weekly check-ins. You know, it sounds like a kind of a white glove service, if you will. Jen: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people are scared, overtained. They're like what if it doesn't? What if you don't find someone? I'm like never happened in the history of 23 years, because we're talking to you and if we're not finding the right people, we're going to pivot, we're going to merge, we're going to figure out why is that happening. Is it the company reputation? Is it our pitch? Is it the way we're describing it? I mean, we're going after the wrong people. We will figure it out. We always fill the positions. Chris: Right Always, because you're invested in it. Right, right, it's not which. Jen: Because it's and it's not a. Here's three resumes, let me know. Chris: Right. Jen: That's not how it works. I got it. Chris: That makes sense. So a little bit, I just want to ask you're obviously, you know, leading this company. What, what would you or how would you describe your leadership style and how would you say that maybe has evolved over time based on your experience? Jen: So I would describe my leadership style as real. It's too real. I like to be pretty open with my employees and I have weekly calls with almost all of them I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly calls with almost all of them, I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly call with her. But the others, who I may not speak with, I have weekly calls. We talk about what's happening, what's going well, what is their workload like? I ask them what was the most challenging? Because we all work remote, so that's the other thing. We don't see each other every day right and I'll say what was the most challenging thing and what are you most proud of. And sometimes I had no idea. They're like oh well, I met that candidate at that event. I went to one of my. One of my employees told me that I'm like, I had no idea. Like you went to this networking event and happened to meet the right guy. So you know, just things like that. I try to have the communication very open yeah and they can tell me listen, I'm just not feeling well today or I'm mentally having some issues with home. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but I just need to sit back and I'm like, take the time, whatever you need to do. So I like to think I'm a pretty real manager. Chris: Yeah Well, it sounds like there's a lot of empathy that comes across in those calls, so they feel safe. Yeah, empathy, that comes across in those calls so they feel safe, and I think that's an important thing for a leader to be able to show empathy so that people will be more open and responsive, at whatever level your leadership is in the organization, is an important quality. It's interesting too, I think, that you asked about challenges, because I find it to be helpful to if you're kind of forced to reflect on what was really good about the last week and maybe what was a challenge, because we learn from both. Right, well, that's really good. Anything that you mentioned your stepmother earlier as a mentor, any learning from her that you kind of feel like you're implementing today and kind of carrying on some of the things you learned along the way from her Well, she is my free consultant, so you know, so I call her all the time. Jen: I'm like, okay, more free. Chris: Don't let her listen, she might start charging. Jen: She's fully retired, so she's like no problem. No, I think, being a peer to your clients and telling them no, sometimes you know she's not a yes man and I think I learned that, that you know you've got to push back. When you know, because of your 20 years experience, that something's wrong, you have to call the elephant in the room yeah and you have to say you, you may not skip this recruiting. You know, a lot of times my clients will get very excited about a candidate and they're like, well, can you just come see me tomorrow? And I'm like, no, he cannot because that's too fast for the candidate. They need time to process. You look too eager. I had one client that said it. He said I'm not coming to the first date with a diamond ring. You cannot come to the first date with a diamond ring, you have to let the process happen. But she was always very good about not being a yes man and I've learned that works and it pays off to help your clients be successful. Chris: It's funny that works and it pays off for to help your clients be successful. It's funny that reminds me there's an analogy that applies in all kinds of situations. But it's the cake right. So, just like you were saying, don't be too fast. Yeah, you can have all the right ingredients, mix it up, put it in the oven. If you pull it out too quick, it's going to flop yeah right. So you got to let the process, trust the process, let the process play out, and that applies in so many different aspects of business yeah, and these are humans that we're dealing with. Jen: These are people and they weren't thinking about a job change most likely. Chris: So you've got to let that change management process happen in their head, you know, let them go through that as well so good point to make and we'll repeat it that for what you're doing with these targeted executive searches, most likely the right person was not looking. The ones that are looking there could be one of those red flags there, Not always right, not always, but yeah. So, jen, this has been a fun conversation. Congratulations on your success, thank you. I want to ask you just a few things to wrap up. Yep, so obviously you've been in the search world, or executive search world, for you said 20 plus years. What was your first job? Jen: I remember you asked somebody else this, so I actually worked at a daycare for intellectually disabled kids and adults. Not that fun story that you wanted to hear, but it was fun. I absolutely loved it. I worked every summer. 0:36:20 - Chris: There had to be a lot of life lessons learned in that. Jen: Very challenging. These were kids that were not accepted at other daycares, even for special needs kids. And so I made $4.25 an hour. I was just telling this story because now I'm the chairman of the board for Special Olympics. Chris: Are you really? Jen: I am, and so they asked me my why, and I was like well, I did this for about five years, six years, all through college. I did summer camps and stuff, and so that population has a very soft spot in my heart. Chris: I love how that's come full circle in your life to be able to be doing what you're doing with Special Olympics. As an aside and maybe a plug, isn't Houston hosting the Special Olympics? Jen: next year, next year, I did not tell you that you didn't, but I just know we are right at rice, and is it 2025? Yeah, so that's a big deal, so huge those. Chris: Any listeners in houston, be on the lookout to go support that, what a great cause thank you, appreciate that all right. So my favorite question tex-mex or barbecue? Jen: tex-mex. I'm not a barbecue fan. My husband loves it, but I don't. Chris: Well, you know, you had no problem answering that question. Jen: Some people struggle so I love that In Texas only probably Right. Chris: So another question I get travel ideas from. So if you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Jen: Maine. Chris: Maine. Jen: We. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Maine, maine. We went to Maine last year. Oh my God, it's beautiful. We're empty nesters and so we're doing two-week working vacations. We just got back from Santa Fe and then we're hoping the next spring we're going to do Maine. Chris: Good for you. Yeah, I like that, kenny. Jen: Bunk or somewhere around there. Chris: Okay Well, you didn't let me finish a sentence, oh sorry, no, so I know you meant it right. Some people have to think about it. Jen: Oh, I knew. Yeah. Well, we're thinking about where we want to go now, so we've got a whole list. Chris: That's a fun process to go through. Yeah, it is so well, jen. Thanks again for coming. Special Guest: Jen Sudduth.

We're happy to welcome Tom Grotewohl of Protect the Porkies, who are organizing against the development of the Copperwood Mine in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Important and time-sensitive calls to action: 1. Visit https://protecttheporkies.com/ to learn more and to sign the petition opposing Copperwood Mine. 2. Sign up contribute a public comment to the Michigan Strategic Fund's public comment session on March 26th at 10am (in-person in Lansing or virtually). You can get all the info about attending, pre-registering a virtual comment, or submitting a comment of opposition via email at https://www.michiganbusiness.org/about-medc/michigan-strategic-fund/public-comment/ 3. Protect the Porkies are also hosting a virtual town hall this Saturday, March 23 at 11am where you can get more campaign updates. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZcpcOCrqTMjHdf5LigSt0aKNbDCB1p-S5l-? This proposed metallic sulfide mine would be the closest to Lake Superior in history as well as bordering the North Country Trail and Porcupine Mountain State Park - which is not only the largest State Park in Michigan, it is the largest designated Wilderness Area in mainland Michigan with 40,000+ acres of designated Wilderness including 35,000 acres of old growth forest which is the largest tract of mixed coniferous-deciduous old growth remaining in the Midwest. It was recently ranked as "most beautiful State Park in the country." The Michigan Strategic Fund is currently considering a $50M grant to the proposed Copperwood metallic sulfide mine - this move would be an incredibly irresponsible use of taxdoller money and most likely open the door to additional investment and funding that would help the foreign energy company get the necessary resources to start development. Tom goes in-depth in the episode to how we got here, what's at stake and all of the current calls to action that we're encouraging folks to take. Please join us in taking action and spreading the word to your friends! /// EPISODE 44
 / Tom Grotewohl interviewed by Seth Bernard / Produced, edited and mixed by Dan Rickabus and Chris Good / Narrators - Alex Smith, Ben Darcie, Dan Rickabus, Jenny Jones, Angela Gallegos, Rachel Marco-Havens / Graphic by Chris Good, Photos courtesy of Tom Grotewohl / Theme Music - Mike Savina, Seth Bernard & Dan Rickabus / Featured Music - “Homestretch” by Ecotone; “Authors (instrumental demo)" by Dan Rickabus; and “La Nana de la Loba” by Maple Moon

With "Near", director Chris Good Goodwin wanted to show some creative separation between himself and his close collaborator, SlasherVictim666. Chris talks about the importance of watching one movie every night, his expansive film taste and the importance of casting.  Check out Near on TUBI! Films: Near (2023), The Big Feast (1973), Reel 2 (2020), Reel (2015), Who Wants To Be Reely Famous? (Series), Killers of the Flower Moon (2023), The Boogeyman (2023), August Underground (2001), It Lives Inside (2023), Terrifier 2 (2022), Terrifier 3 (2024), The Exorcist: Believer (2023), Boogeyman (2005), The Celebration (1998), Cats (2019), Incident at Deception Ridge (1994), The Empty Man (2020), Grieve (2023), Bacurau (2019), Curb Your Enthusiasm (Series), Vertigo (1958), Phantom of the Paradise (1974), Snake Eyes (1998) Hey, we're on YouTube!  Listening on an iPhone? Don't forget to rate us on iTunes!   Fill our fe-mailbag by emailing us at OverlookHour@gmail.com   Reach us on Instagram (@theoverlooktheatre) Facebook (@theoverlookhour) Twitter (@OverlookHour)

On this episode of the pod, my guest is Penny Travlou, a Senior Lecturer/Associate Professor in Cultural Geography and Theory (Edinburgh School of Architecture & Landscape Architecture, Edinburgh College of Art/University of Edinburgh). Her research focuses on social justice, the commons, collaborative practices, intangible cultural heritage and ethnography. She has been involved in international research projects funded by the EU and UK Research Councils. For the past eight years, she has been working with independent art organisations in Colombia and most recently in the African continent to understand the commons from a decolonial perspective and to look at commoning practices within artistic forms while understanding the specificities of the commons rooted in various socio-cultural and geographical contexts. As an activist, she has been involved in a number of grassroots and self-organised initiatives on housing and refugees' rights in Greece.Show NotesGreek Elections and the Rise of the Ultra-RightExarcheia and the Student Uprisings of 1974An Olympic Tourism Plan for AthensMass Tourism Consumption in ExarcheiaGovernment Plans to Dismantle Local Social MovementsThe Greek Golden VisaAARG and Community Action Against GentrificationFortress EuropeWhen Will the Bubble Burst?Advice for Tourists; Advice for OrganizingHomeworkPenny Travlou University of Edinburgh WebsiteAARG! AthensPenny's TwitterTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Good morning, Penny, from Oaxaca. How are you today? [00:00:04] Penny: Very good. Good afternoon from Athens, Chris. [00:00:07] Chris: So perhaps you could share with me and our listeners a little bit more about where you find yourself today in Athens and what life looks like for you there. You mentioned that you had local elections yesterday.[00:00:19] Penny: Yes, I am located in the neighborhood of Exarcheia but towards the borders of it to a hill, Lycabettus Hill. And I am originally from Athens, from Greece, but I've been away for about 20 years, studying and then working in the UK and more specifically in Scotland.So the last eight years, since 2015, I've been coming and going between the two places, which I consider both home. And yes, yesterday we had the elections for the government. So we basically got, again, reelected the conservatives, which are called New Democracy, which is a neoliberal party, but also government also with patriotic, let's say, crescendos and anti-immigration agenda.And at the same time, we have first time, a majority in parliament of the, not even the central, but the right wing, in the Parliament. So it's 40%, this party and another three which are considered basically different forms of ultra- right. And one of them is a new conglomeration, from the previous, maybe, you know, or your audience Golden Dawn, which is a neo- Nazi party, which was basically banned and it's members went to us to prison as members of a gang, basically.But now through, I don't want to go into much detail, managed to get a new party called the Spartans, which obviously you can think what that means, plus two more parties, smaller parties, which are inclined towards very fundamentally religiously and ethnic focus, meaning, you know, anti immigration.And then it's the almost like the complete collapse of the radical left that is represented by Syriza. The Communist Party is always stable. You know, it's the fourth party. So anyway, we, it's a bit of a shock right now. I haven't spoken with comrades. Not that we are supporters of Syriza, but definitely change the picture of what we're doing as social movements and what it means to be part of a social movement right now.So there will be lots of things happening for sure in the next four years with this new not government. The government is not new cause it's the current one, just being reelected, but the new situation in the Parliament. [00:03:02] Chris: Hmm. Wow. Wow. Well, perhaps it's a moment like in so many places, to begin anew, organizing on the grassroots level.You know, there's so many instances around the world and certainly in Southern Europe where we're constantly reminded of the context in which local governments and top-down decision makings simply no longer works.And that we need to organize on a grassroots level. And so I'm really grateful that you've been willing to speak with us today and speak with us to some of these social movements that have arisen in Athens and Greece, in Exarcheia around the notions of immigration as well as tourism.And so to begin, you mentioned that you've been traveling for the last half decade or so back and forth and I'd like to ask you first of all, what have your travels taught you about the world, taught you about how you find yourself in the world?[00:04:02] Penny: Very good question. Thank so much for raising it because I won't say about my personal history, but my father was, actually passed away a couple of years ago, was a captain in the merchant Navy. So for me, the idea of travel is very much within my family. So, the idea of having a parent travel, receiving letters before emails from far away places was always kind of the almost like the imagination of the other places, but also reality.So, when myself become an adult and moved to the UK specifically, to study and then work. This became my own work and my own life reality because I had dramatically to live between two places. So, it was almost this idea of not belonging and belonging. This concept from in both places, but also the specific type of research, because, I haven't mentioned that my day job is an academic. I am currently, equivalent in the United States will be associate professor in geography, but in the school of Architecture and Landscape Architecture. But the type of research I do request me to travel a lot. I'm looking on the idea of collaborative practices in emerging networks of artists, digital artists, specifically activists and trans-local migrants.So what it means actually to connect and to collaborate and to share knowledge and co-produce knowledges. Actually knowledge travels. So everything in my life, in the last two decades is around this, let alone that my own PhD was about tourism. I was looking on tourist images and myths, myths in metaphorically speaking of representations of Athens before the Olympic Games of 2004.So the journey and the travel and tourism is very much part of what I do in my day job, but also on other things I do personally. So what I learned through this is, first of all, maybe it's very common to say that without travel, knowledge doesn't travel.So, how we basically do things and flourish and develop ideas is through the sharing and sharing travels very much. So, movement is totally important. [00:06:37] Chris: I think that, for so many of us who have taken a critical eye and, and looked to the critical eyes around tourism and over tourism in the tourism industry, that there is this sense that things can be different and things must be different.To find a way to look towards, as you said, some sense of collaboration, some sense of interculturality, some sense of working together so that our earthly movements can produce honorable connections and meetings as opposed to just this kind of flippant and flacid kind of turns style travel.And so, I've invited you on the pod, in part, today, to speak about this neighborhood that you're in Exarcheia in Athens, in Greece. And you know, I imagine that many of our listeners have never heard of this, this neighborhood before, but many in Greece and many, many in Athens have, certainly. And I'm wondering if you could offer our listeners a little bit of background in regards to why Exarcheia is such a unique place and why it attracts so much attention politically in terms of social movements and also with tourists.Mm-hmm. [00:07:53] Penny: The history of Exarcheia is quite long in the sense with where it is in the very center of Athens. So if somebody basically get the Google map, you will see that the neighborhood is in walking distance from the Greek parliament. And Syntagma Square, which is another important square with regards to movements.It became very known in later years in the 2010s due to not only riots demonstrations that happened in what we now call the square movement. It started from Spain, to put it this way, and then to Greece, as well, in Athens. So Exarcheia is very central, but also it was since, postwar, it was a bohemic neighborhood.Lots of artists related to the left or at that point to communist party, et cetera, were living here, but also there were theaters, independent theaters, the printing houses. So we have a number still of Publishing houses that they are located in various parts of the Exarcheia neighborhood. So it has put its imprint into the Athenian urban history for quite a number of decades. And when I say Communist party, the communist Party was not legal at the time, when we say postwar. But, we had people inclined towards the left, like intellectuals, et cetera.Then with the dictatorship that happened in 1967-19 74, that's when first time really it gets, it's a real place in the political side of not only of the left, but also generally speaking of the political milieu and situation in Greece and abroad, and became very known due to the uprising, the student uprising against the dictatorship or otherwise, as we call it, junta in 1974, where here in Exarcheia is also the National Technical University of Athens, which is known also as a Polytechnic, where it was basically the uprising against the dictatorship with students basically rioting, but also died. So, it became an iconic part of the student movements since then in Greece. So, since the seventies.People can Google search or YouTube. They will see various documentaries dedicated specifically to that student uprising. And through that, after the dictatorship, one thing which was added in the Constitution and now has changed with this current government is that for a number of decades, it was what we call the asylum.That the police or the army cannot enter the university premises, and that's across Greece. So, students can occupy buildings. They can have, their own strikes, et cetera, without the police and or army entering. However, the Constitution changed a year ago. During the COVID period with the current government, the conservatives were basically they're not only say the police can enter if there is antisocial behavior happens within the university premises, but also that they will basically would like to have a police dedicated to university premises. Anyway, things are changing, but if we go back to Exarcheia and to your question, so since then the seventies, it became the neighborhood hub for the left and particularly for the radical left to congregate, to meet, to have social spaces.And also that a lot of demonstrations start from this neighborhood. And also since late eighties, became also the center of the anarchist and anti authoritarian movement. Since 2015, it was also a hub for those let's say groups, initiatives dedicated to offer solidarity to the newly arrived refugees in Greece and Athens due to the Syrian conflict. Yeah. So there is lots of facts related to why Exarchia has become iconic neighborhood with regards to social movements and definitely since 2015. The year of the election of the radical left as said, Syriza government at the time were attracted also more attention from abroad, from journalists and "solidarians," comrades, from international or transnational, social movements to come to Greece to see what was happening, to take part into the local movements and initiatives.But also it was the deep time of the austerity crisis. So, we have austerity crisis and refugee crisis at the time, ...and tourism! How did that happen?I was at that point here in 2015 is when I started coming in Athens and spending more time. And it was much more obvious that, first of all, before Athens, it was a completely different story with regards to tourism and specifically even before the Olympic games of 2004. People from abroad were coming, spending one or two days, nothing, just to visit the Acropolis and the other historical sites and museums and go to the islands. Was not basically considered as a beautiful city, as an interesting city. Or even as a modern city.So if somebody wants to see, let's say, "Rough Guides" of that period, the way the city was described was, I remember very well, I think it was a rough guide, "a cacophony." That it was extremely ugly. 2004 basically is the first time that there is a definitely dedicated clear plan from the top, from the government and local authorities to think of Athens as a tourist product.And they made some major plans. One is obviously that it's not about tourists, but it relates to tourism. It's the metro and it's the unification of the archeological sites and creating pedestrian zones, which makes it easier for people to walk through the different places. So slowly, we saw tourism getting, numbers like higher and higher.Interestingly, the austerity crisis that you expected there will be a "no" for tourism became actually an attraction for tourism, first, because things were getting cheaper. And the crisis created this, actually, this opportunity in that sense. And secondly, that even the radical left government, Syriza thought that tourism is an industry that can top up the economic issues related or the economic, the financial deficiencies of the country.So it created a series of possibilities for investment from people from abroad to invest in real estate that was matched with the beginnings of the short-let accommodation businesses, Airbnb and equivalent. So all these started slowly creating a fertile land of the right conditions for the tourist economy to flourish further. And to get tourist numbers up in such an extreme that in 2019, we reach full capacity in regards to accommodation. And I don't remember now that in numbers of millions of tourists who visited the country. So there's lots of factors which brought Athens to experience.And of course, Exarcheia, specifically mass touristification, because Exarcheia is in the center of Athens. Very easy to come. Secondly, attractive because it's a vibrant neighborhood, not only because of social movements, because the tourists who come are not all interested in the political scene of the area, but mostly it's about consuming this very vibrant nightlife economy.It's the art economy, which is related with the street art and basically night economy because it has a lot of cafes which have doubled. Nowadays is one of the most populated with Airbnb accommodation. Wow. [00:16:56] Chris: Wow, what a history. It seems, from what I've read, from what I've seen, that Exarcheia was, perhaps summarize it in a single word, a kind of sanctuary for many people over the decades.And and you mentioned the Olympics too, but certainly Barcelona as well had the Olympic Games in the last 30 years, and then you tend to see this similar result or effect or consequence after the Olympic Games in which the cities themselves in some cases are either abandoned in terms of infrastructure.And so all of the billions of dollars that went into them seems to have been only for that month of the Olympic Games or in the case of Athens or, or Barcelona, perhaps, that it's created this unbelievable kind of spiraling out of, of economic growth, if you wanna call it that.But certainly of gentrification, of exile and the increase in cost of living. Mm. And so in that regard, Penny, I'm curious, what have you seen in regards to the growth of tourism in Athens? How has it affected the people, the culture, and the cost of living there?Hmm. What have you seen on that kind of street level? Cause we can talk about it on an economic level, right? Where we're kind of removed from the daily lives of the people, but what do you see in regards to your neighbors, your family, your friends that live in that neighborhood with you?[00:18:18] Penny: Okay. I mean, first of all, I mean there is a lot of things that happen in Exarcheia and now it's clear there is also a strategy to completely dismantle the social movements. It's not like extreme to say that, but it's very clear and that's what the discussions now are focusing. And it's important to say that because in order to do that, one of the ways is to basically disrupt the spaces, disrupt the space that this happens. And Exarcheia is not metaphorically the location that the social movements and initiatives are and happen,but it is the first time that we see a plan, a strategy that if there is a future here, that through not anymore tactics, but strategies from the government and the local authorities, which also are conservative, in one sense.So, to give you an example, Exarcheia neighborhood is identified by its square. The square. When we talk about Exarcheia, we talk about the Exarcheia Square, specifically, when you want to talk about movements. Not the things were happening on the square, but it's identification of the movements.So, the government with the municipality decide that the new metro station in the Exarcheia neighborhood will happen on this square. So, through this, they block completely, they fence the square, so there's no activity in the square. So, this completely changes the landscape.To put it this way, the imaginary of this landscape for the local residents, but also visitors. So, if you check the images, you will see, which is a reality, is a five meter fence. So it's definitely changes. So, I'm saying that cause somebody from the audience say, but "yes, it's for the metro. It's for the benefit of the people."Of course it's for the benefit. But there were also Plan B and Plan C that was submitted by a group of architects and some of them academics from the university here to suggest that they are better locations in the area for the metro for various reasons. "No, the metro will def will happen in the Exarcheia Square."And there is now a number of initiatives that they were dedicated to solidarity to refugees now are moving towards struggles and resistance against the metro. Mm, wow. And how tourism comes in, because you have the blocking of a central square, for a neighborhood, which is its center and then you see slowly, more and more businesses opening, pushing out or closing down all the more traditional local businesses, for opening businesses more related to tourism, like restaurants that they have a particular clientele, you know, of the food they promote, et cetera, which definitely dedicated to this particular clientele, which is basically foreigners.The second thing that happens and has to do, of course, with gentrification. In the high rank of gentrification, we're experiencing aggressive gentrification, fast and changing the look and the everydayness of the neighborhood, is that since the Syriza, they make things much easier for foreign investors through what is called golden visa.Mm-hmm. The golden visa is that in order for a non-European, non-EU national to be in Europe. And you need a specific visa, otherwise you can be only with the tourist visa for three months. In order to obtain a longer term visa of five years, 10 years, is this we call Golden Visa, where you can invest in the local economy, like in London, I don't know, in Paris. Greece has the cheapest Golden Visa, which is until recently up to 250,000 euros. So imagine it's not a lot of money if you want to invest. So, people will start getting this visa by buying property, and obviously they want to make more money by converting these places into Airbnbs.Mm-hmm. They started with individuals like, let's say me that I decide to buy a property in Paris, but now we have international real estate developers, like from China, Israel, Russia, Turkey to say a few and Germany, where they buy whole buildings, right. And they convert them to Airbnbs, not only for tourists, but also for digital nomads. So, for your audience, for example, yesterday I was at an event and I was speaking to a young artist and the discussion moved, I don't know how to, "where do you live?" I said, "I live Exarcheia." He said, "I live in Exarcheia. I asked, "Where?" And he told me, "I live there. But I have big problems, because although I own the place through inheritance, I would like to move out to sell it, because the whole building, apart from my flat and another one has been bought by an international company and now my neighbors are digital nomads, which means I dunno who these people are, because every couple of weeks it changes. It's fully dirty. Huge problem with noise. Lots of parties. It's extremely difficult."So, imagine that this changed. There are stories of this, a lot. The other thing that has happened in Exarcheia is young people, in particular, are being pushed out because the rents, as you understand, if somebody who wants to rent it for Airbnb then thinks in this mindset and something that was until recently, 300 euros. A one bedroom flat. Now it ends up in 500, 600 euros, where still the minimum sa salary is less than 700 Euros. Wow. So people are being pushed out. I have lots of examples of people, and when I say young, not young in the sense of 20s, but also people in their forties that they are being pushed out. They cannot rent anymore, let alone to buy. To buy, it's almost impossible. Yeah. [00:25:04] Chris: Yeah. Almost everyone I talk to, doesn't matter where they live these days and not just for the podcast, but in my personal life, and of course with the people who I interview on the podcast, they say the same thing. This housing crisis, if you wanna call it that, because I don't know if it's an issue of housing, as such, but an issue of regulation, an issue of the lack of regulation around these things. And it's clear that so much of the issues around tourism have to do with hyper mobility and and housing. Yes. Or at least that's what it's become in part. Mm-hmm. And so I'd like to ask you, Penny, I know you're also part of an organization named AARG! (Action Against Regeneration and Gentrification) in Athens. Mm-hmm. And so participating in the resistance against these consequences.So I'd love it if you could explain a little bit about the organization, its principles and what it does to try to combat gentrification and of course the government and police tactics that you mentioned previously. [00:26:12] Penny: Well, now we are in a turning point because obviously what are we going to do? It's like "day zero."But we started in 2019. It's not an organization. It's an activist initiative. So, we don't have any legal status as an activist group, but came out of a then source of free space called Nosotros, which was located, and I explain why I use the past tense. It was located in the very center of Exarcheia, in Exarcheia Square, basically, in a neoclassic building since 2005, if I'm right. And it was really like taking part in all the different events since then with regards to, you know, things were happening in Athens in particular, and the square movement later on during the austerity crisis years.And it is also part of the anti-authoritarian movement. So, in 2019 a number of comrades from Nosotros and other initiatives in Exarcheia Square came together through recognizing that, definitely, since 2015 started slowly seeing a change in the neighborhood. On the one hand, we were seeing higher numbers of comrades coming from abroad to be with us in different projects with the refugees, but at the same time, as I said earlier, an attraction by tourism. And gentrification was definitely happening in the neighborhood; at that time, in slow pace. So it was easy for us to recognize it and to see it, and also to have discussions and assemblies to think how we can act against it.What kind of actions can we take, first of all, to make neighbors aware of what was happening in the neighborhood, and secondly, to act against Airbnbs, but not only, because the issue was not just the Airbnbs. So in 2019 we started, we had a series of assemblies. We had events. We invited comrades from abroad to, to share with us their own experiences of similar situation, like for instance, in Detroit, that at that time we thought that it was the extreme situation on what happened with the economic crisis in US and the collapse of the car industry, not only with the impact in Detroit and in Berlin, which again, at the time, still in 2019, we felt that Berlin was experiencing gentrification very far beyond what was happening in Athens and specifically in Exarcheia.So, that's in 2019. We had also actions that we start mapping the neighborhood to understand where Airbnbs were kind of mushrooming, where were the issues, but also in cases, because the other thing that was start becoming an issue was the eviction. At that time was still not as, for example, we were reading 2019 and before in Berlin, for example, or in Spain, like in Barcelona or Madrid...but there were cases, so we experienced the case of a elderly neighbor with her son who is a person with disabilities who were basically forced through eviction from the place they were renting, for almost two decades, by the new owners, who were real estate developer agency from abroad, who bought the whole building basically, and to convert it to Airbnb, basically. So we did this. Let's say this started in January 2019, where we just have elections and it's the first time we get this government, not first time, but it's the first time we have conservatives being elected and start saying dramatically and aggressively neighborhood with basically the eviction almost of all the housing spot for refugees in the area, apart from one, which still is here.All the others were basically evicted violently with the refugees, were taken by police vans to refugee camps. Those who had already got the papers were basically evicted and sent as homeless in the streets, not even in camps. So, we basically moved our actions towards this as well.And then Covid. So during Covid we created a new initiative were called Kropotkin-19, which was a mutual aid, offering assistance to people in need through the collection of food and things that they need, urgently, in the area, in the neighborhood, and the nearby neighborhood and refugee comes outside Athens.So, AARG! Has basically shifted their actions towards what was actually the urgency of the moment. So, and what happened in all this is that we lost the building through the exact example of gentrification, touristification. The owners took it because obviously it's next to the square where it's actually the metro and the think, they say future thinking, that they will sell it with very good money, to the millions, basically.So Nosotros and us as AARG! were basically now currently homeless. We don't have a real location because the building was basically taken back by the owners, and we were evicted right from the building. [00:32:14] Chris: Well, this context that you just provided for me, it kind of deeply roots together, these two notions of tourists and refugees of tourism and exile.In southern Europe, it's fairly common to see graffiti that says "migrants welcome, tourism go home." And in this context of that building, in that relative homelessness, it seems that, in a place that would house refugees, in a place that would house locals even, that this gentrification can produce this kind of exile that turns local people as well as, you know, the people who would be given refuge, given sanctuary also into refugees in their own places.And I'm wondering if there's anything else you'd like to unpack around this notion of the border crises in Greece and Southern Europe. I know that it's still very much in the news around this fishing vessel that collapsed with some seven to 800 people on it, off the coast of Greece.And certainly this is nothing new in that region. And I'm just wondering if there's anything more you'd like to unpack or to offer our listeners in regards to what's happening in Greece in regards to the border crises there. Mm. [00:33:36] Penny: Okay. I mean, the border crisis, is Greece and it's Europe. So when you speak about national policies or border policy, you need also to think of what we call fortress Europe, because this is it. So Greece is in the borders and it's actually policing the borders. And, there's lots of reports even recently that quite a lot of illegal pushbacks are happening from Greece back to Turkey or in the case of this current situation with a boat with more than 500 people.I think it's almost like to the 700. That's the case. So this current government it was for four years, we've seen that it has definitely an anti-immigration policy agenda, definitely backed up by European policies as well.But now being reelected is going to be harder and this is a big worry for, because still we have conflicts nearby. We need to consider environmental crisis that it creates in various parts for sure, like refugees, and we have conflicts.We have Ukraine, et cetera. Although also there is discussion of thinking of refugees in two ways: those that they come from, let's say, Ukraine, which they look like us and those who do not look like us. And this obviously brings questions of racism and discrimination as well.So borders and tourism also. It is really interesting because these two are interlinked. We cannot see them, but they're interlinked. And even we can think in the widest, let's say, metaphor of this, that at the same week, let's say 10 days that we had this major loss of lives in the Greek Sea.At the same time we have the submarine with the millionaires or billionaires, which almost is a kind of a more like upmarket tourism because also we need to think what the submarine represents symbolically to the life we are creating, worldwide.And I'm saying worldwide because I was currently, and I think I talked with you, Chris, about it, in Latin America and specifically in Medellin, which is a city known mostly abroad for not good reasons, basically for the drug trafficking. But one of the things, definitely post pandemic that the city's experiencing is massive gentrification and massive touristification due to economic policies that allow specific type of tourism to flourish through digital nomads having real opportunities there for very cheap lifestyles. Very good technology infrastructure, but other issues that bring mass tourism that in this case is also sex tourism and underage sex tourism, which is really, really problematic. But going back to Athens and Exarcheia in particular, the issue, it's very obvious. We are even now discussing that this thing is a bubble and sooner or later we will see that bursting because tourism is a product. Tourist locations are products and they have a lifespan.And it's particularly when there's no sustainable planning strategy. And an example in Greece, which is recently been heard a lot, is Mykonos Island. The Mykonos Island was known as this like hedonistic economy, up market, et cetera.But right now it is the first year that they've seen losses, economic losses, that it doesn't do well on the number of tourists coming. So, there are these things that we will see. Still, Athens is in its peak and they're expecting big numbers still because we are not even in July. I live now what most of us would say, we don't want to be in Exarcheia for going out because it doesn't anymore looks as a space we knew, for various reasons. But still there is movement. As I said the metro now is the center of the resistance. And also the other thing that I forgot to say that it's actually from the municipality coming in is that they are closing down and closed down basically green areas in the area, like Strefi Hill, and the nearby park for supposedly to regenerate it and to ensure that it's up in the level that it needs to be. But at the same time, they are leasing it into corporate private businesses to run. [00:38:43] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And just for our listeners, whether this is the intention of local governments or not the closure or at least suspension of these places such as parks or local squares is the refusal to allow people to use public lands or to operate on what are traditionally understood as the commons, right? Mm-hmm. And these are traditionally places that people would use to organize. And so whether this is a part of the government's plans or not this is the consequence, right?And this tends to happen more and more and more as tourism and development reaches its apex in a place. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Penny, I have a question that was actually written in by a friend of mine who lives there in Athens and his name is Alex who I had the pleasure of meeting last year there.And Alex talks about how everyone in Greece seems to be involved in tourism in some manner or another, that it's according to him "the country's biggest industry and how all of us are bound and tied to it," he said. Mm-hmm. And Alex wonders what alternatives and perhaps worthy alternatives do you think there might be to tourist economies?[00:39:59] Penny: Well, I mean, the issue is not, I mean, tourism is a type of model of tourism as well. I mean and it is also kind of percentages. So if we have more tourists than locals, then there is a question here, what exactly is happening when particular neighborhoods are turned to theme parks?Then again, it's an issue of what exactly offered locals, because okay, it could be good for businesses, but as I said, where is the sustainability in these projects and these models? Because if it's five year plan, then after the five year plan, all these people who are involved in tourism, what are they going to do?The other thing is what kinda tourism we're talking about and what kind services, because if we're all tangled or related with a tourist product, but what we do is servicing, meaning that even very few people will make money because most of us, we will be employees. And saying that is also about labor rights.So this is actually not regulated. There is no real regulation to various levels. Housing, for example, that you touched upon, earlier on in the conversation... In Greece doesn't have a dedicated law. So housing comes in various different parts of law, but it doesn't have a dedicated one.That's another reason why things are very unruly, unregulated. And the other thing is that in Greece, one thing that is unique, in comparison to all the countries, is that after the second World War, there was this idea of small ownership; that the dream is to own a small place, and to give it to your kids, et cetera.So it is very, very complex in that sense. And also as a tenant, it's very difficult to basically to have rights as well. Likewise, when we talk about labor, there's lots of things which are not regulated. So people who work in the tourist industry... it's almost like slavery.Quite a lot of people do not want to work right now in the tourism industry because they know that it's really unregulated and where that ends. So go back to what your friend asked, I'm not an economist and it's not an easy, and it's not, I'm not using it as an easy way to escape from giving a reply, but it's not about how to replace tourism, but it's actually what kind of a tourist model we bringing in because it's the same thing that I brought.So in Greece what exactly are we actually looking as a model to bring things that we saw in other places, didn't work?And they've seen the aftermaths of it. So this is something we need to be very, very serious about. Because at the moment, I think it's a five year plan with no future-thinking further because imagine a scenario that if tourism collapse, and we have all these businesses dedicated to tourism in one single neighborhood. We have urban Airbnb everywhere. What all these privately owned premises going to do? What kind of alternative you they're gonna have? [00:43:27] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. You used the word " replace," to replace tourism and I'm a big fan of etymology of the study of the roots of words and in English, the word replace in its deepest meaning could mean "to place, again." Right. And if we understood the word place as a verb, and not just as a noun, not just as a thing, but as something we do, what would it look like to place again, to consider our place not just as a thing, but as a process, as a process through time.And what would that mean to re-place ourselves. To re-place the time we're in. And it brings me to my next question, which is around solidarity and mm-hmm. I'm wondering in this regard, what kind of advice might you have both for tourists, for individuals, and also for people looking to organize their own communities in solidarity with, for example, the movements, the collectives, the residents of places like Exarcheia. What advice would you have for those people who wish to act and live in solidarity with the collectives that are undertaking these battles in places like Exarcheia?[00:44:51] Penny: Okay. If I remember well, the initiative against the Metro has created an open letter which will be for also address to tourists. So to make them aware, you know, you are here, you are welcome, but be aware that this is happening in this neighborhood, that the neighborhood is not just a product for consumption, but they are us, that we live here and we have been hugely affected by policies against us.It's not a blame to the tourists because we've been tourists and we are tourists ourselves. We go somewhere else. It's a matter to how you are respectful and understanding of what happens in local level and that there are people leaving not only the people who make money out of offering you services, but basically every people who have an everydayness in these areas and they need to be respected as well. And even understand where and what may happen to them. I mean, obviously we hear, and there are people who think, okay, we rather prefer to stay in hotels instead of AIrbnbs because this will basically support further this economy, which is platform capitalism because again, at the end, who makes more money, are the people who own those platforms.So it's about to be conscious and to be open and to see around you. And I'm saying that, and I can give you an example because for me, it definitely summarizes what I want to say. Okay, last summer, I was out with friends in Exarcheia, near Exarcheia Square to have a drink with friends who were visiting. No, no one visiting. One is from here. And in another table comes a seller, a migrant from East Asia to sell something and stop in my table. We discuss something with him and behind him, a couple of tourists with a dog passed by. The dog stops, probably afraid of something and kind of barks and bites the seller, the guy who was actually the vendor.So, the vendor gets really panicked and we say what happened to him? The two people with the dog, say, don't actually listen to him. He's lying. He's trying to get money out of us. And this is a story I mean, of understanding, of two people, you know, coming here not understanding at all and having completely this idea, but at the same time trying to consume what Exarcheia is offering. Is a story that to me can say a lot, actually. Mm, [00:47:23] Chris: yeah. Deep imposition. [00:47:25] Penny: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, as tourists, we need to be more conscious of the places we go. We need to understand and to listen and to hear.It is difficult to do otherwise because I mean, when you go back to solidarity, I mean, this is another thing because we don't expect people who come for couple of days to go to different, let's say, collectives, initiatives and take part.But at the same time, people who come and they want to spend time, in the sense of being part, again, one thing you do is not only you consume experiences, you take the experience and you look something abroad. You share the experience and we need that as well. Hmm. [00:48:16] Chris: Wow. And what would you say to people, for example, in places like Oaxaca, where there's been a tourist economy for the last 10, 20 years, steadily growing, and then after the lockdowns has become a destination like cities in Southern Europe, for digital nomads, for quote unquote expatriates, where now the consequences of the tourist economy are reaching a boiling point a kind of crisis moment, and where people are experiencing a great deal of resentment and backlash against the tourist, but who want to find some kind of way of organizing together in order to lessen or undermine or subvert the tourist economies.What advice would you have for those people maybe looking to places like Exarcheia, places like Southern Europe, where people have begun to organize for many years? What advice would you have for those people, for those collectives? [00:49:21] Penny: Well, the prosperity out of what you can get from this type of economy, it's going to be short term. So those who will make money or those who anyway will make money for those who have small businesses, it's going to be for few years. And particularly with digital nomads, is exactly what the word the term means: nomads. So this year or this couple of years, they will be in Oaxaca, they will be in Medellin.Previously they were in Lisbon. They were in Berlin. There is a product that is movable because their business, the work they do is movable. So for them, is what you offer like a package. And if it is cheap package, they will go there. If it has good weather, they will go there. And easier legislation.So it's a matter of recognizing because at the same time you cannot start pushing and throwing and beating up tourists. You're not gonna change anything. It's basically awareness.I'm not fond local authorities, but I've seen that in cases like Barcelona, the local authorities were more conscious and more aware, and obviously more on the left side. They were trying as well to create policies that has some limitation that at least this thing, it doesn't become beyond what you're able to sustain, basically, to create an equilibrium.But still, even in Barcelona, there are situations as in the neighborhood, which has became totally gentrified and people were pushed out. So they need some kind of legislation to limit the numbers of visitors for Airbnbs or things like that. But in the level of action, it's actually awareness and resistance and to continue.It's not easy because the political situation doesn't help. It has created a fruitful land for this to become even more and more and more. But the idea is not to give up and stop. I know that it's very like maybe generic and very abstract what I'm offering a solutions, because obviously here we're also trying to see what solutions we can have. Maybe you create a critical mass in an international level. Also, you make aware outside of what happens. So, so the tourists before even coming, they're aware of what's exactly happening and also with regards to solidarity between similar causes. Hmm. [00:52:00] Chris: Hmm. Thank you Penny. So we've spoken quite a bit about what's come to pass in Athens, in Greece, in Exarcheia in regards to tourism, gentrification, and the border crisis there in fortress Europe. And my final question for you is do you think there's anything about these movements of people and the way that we've come to understand them about the flight and plight of other people's, not just refugees, but also tourists as well, that can teach us about what it means to be at home in our places?[00:52:40] Penny: Oh, that's a big discussion. Cause it depends. I mean, when you talk about mobile population, like those, for instance, digital nomads, then we talk about something else, which is basically a more cosmopolitan understanding of the world, but also that the world is a product for consumption. So, it is two different layers of understanding also home.And basically when you see advertisements of houses specifically short-lets dedicated to let's say, digital nomads, the advertisements will say something like "home," that what we offer you like home. But when you go to those places and you stay in, what they mean like home, is that you have all the amenities to make your life easy as a digital normal.That you have a fast internet to make your work easy, et cetera, et cetera. So it is a very complex thing and definitely the way we live in, it's between the nomadic that has nothing to do with how we understood the nomadic in previous centuries or histories and to their, place as home, like you have a stable place.So, there are many questions and many questions about borders, that borders are easy to pass if you have the right profile, but then it is a block, and it's actually a "no" for those who leave home because they're forced to. So, it's a very unequal way of thinking of borders, home and place, worldwide.It's not just about Greece or Athens or Exarcheia, but maybe Exarcheia is a good example of giving us both sides who are welcome and who are not welcome. So yes, we say "welcome to refugees" and we see this kind of tagging and stencils and graffiti around because yes, this is what we want. We want them here to welcome them, but at the same time, we say " no to tourism," not because we have individual issues with specific people, but because of what has been the impact of this mobility into local lives.[00:54:59] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, may we come to understand these complexities on a deeper level and in a way that that honors a way of being at home in which, in which all people can be rooted.Mm-hmm. So, I'd like to thank you, Penny, for joining me today, for your time, for your consideration, for your willingness to be able to speak in a language that is not your mother tongue is deeply, deeply appreciated. And finally, how might our listeners be able to read more about your work, about the social movements and collectives in Greece?How might they be able to get in touch? [00:55:41] Penny: Okay. We have on Facebook, on social media, we have AARG!. So if they, look at AARG! Action Against Regeneration & G entrification, but it's AARG! on Facebook and also Kropotkin-19, they will find their information. Now about my work specifically, they will look at my profile like Penny Travlou at the University of Edinburgh. So they will see what I do in Athens and in Latin America. So there is material, some things are in the form of academic text and other things are in videos, et cetera, which are more accessible to a wider audience.[00:56:22] Chris: Well, I'll make sure all those links and social media websites are available to our listeners when the episode launches. And once again, on behalf of our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. [00:56:34] Penny: Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a good morning. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

On this episode of the End of Tourism Podcast, I'm joined by Joana and Davide of Stop Despejos (Stop Evictions). Based in Lisbon (Portugal), Stop Despejos is an anti-capitalist, feminist and anti-racist, horizontal political collective, fighting for the right to housing and the right to the city. Through mutual aid, direct action, obstruction of evictions and media campaigns, they defend the right of inhabitants to keep living in their homes and neighborhoods against institutional racism, soaring rental prices, the commodification of housing, touristification and gentrification.As an autonomous grassroots movement, Stop Despejos believes that a trulyinclusive city can only be achieved by collective organization and solidarity networks between its inhabitants.Show NotesThe Question of Rent in LisbonThe Arrival of Ryan Air and Airbnb in PortugalThe Golden Visa SchemeThe Backlash Against ForeignersCan be Change Happen Through Political Parties or Only at the Grassroots?How to Build Solidarity in a CommunityHow Can We Live More Meaningfully?HomeworkStop Despejos Official WebsiteStop Despejos YouTubeStop Despejos FacebookAldrava Co-opHousing Not ProfitTranscript[00:00:00] Chris: Good morning, Joanna and Davide to the end of Tourism podcast. Thanks for joining me today.[00:00:07] Davide: Thank you. Good morning, chris. Oh, good afternoon.[00:00:10] Joana: Thank you for having, yes, good afternoon. Thank you for having us.[00:00:14] Chris: My pleasure, my honor. Now, I'd like, since we're always doing this virtually, and since there's always time zones to deal with and that kind of thing, I'm hoping that you'd both be able to illustrate a little about where you find yourselves today and what the world looks like there a few days after these mass demonstrations that we'll discuss shortly.[00:00:37] Joanne: Yes, well, I'm I'm in Alfama which is a really old neighborhood in the center of Lisbon. Actually Davide lives in the same neighborhood. And today, the weather is great. It's really sunny and you start to see a lot of tourists. You start to notice that you know, these amounts of tourists that we were used to see before the pandemic starts showing up again.And honestly, I'm still recovering from the, the demonstration during the weekend because we were what, like three months working for this demonstration, probably around three, four months. So yeah, it was a lot of hard work, but it was worth it at the end for sure.[00:01:27] Davide: I, I am in the same neighborhood in Alfama, and the sky is perfectly blue. It's classic Lisbon. It's a city that everybody loves.[00:01:38] Chris: Thank you, David. Debbie Day. Thank you, Joanna. And so you both come to us today on behalf of an organization called Stop Despejos. Now, before we get into the gritty details of the demonstrations, I'm wondering if you two would be willing to share a bit about the history of the organization, why it was started, and perhaps when and by whom,[00:02:07] Davide: Yeah, it, it's called Stop Despejos. It just means "stop eviction." It was founded in in 2017, about six years ago because at that time... In 2012, during Troika there was, after, after the financial crisis crisis in Portugal, I mean all over the world in Portugal the International Monetary Fund and the European Union understood that there was a great opportunity for real estate market in tourism in Portugal.And so they convinced the government, the right-wing government to change the law about renting. And it was much, much simpler to evict people. Mm-hmm. It has become much simpler and one of the ways is actually not to renew contracts. Okay. So the contract normally lasts five years. So just five years after the new law, all people were evicted. And so including myself, and that's why we founded this organization. Wow. Joanna, do you have anything to add in that regard?[00:03:18] Joana: Yes, I joined during 2018, so about an year after David joined. Actually, I also got evicted and it kind of started because of that, like I was in a really old place in the center.And my landlord wanted to increase the rent for more than 300 euros. Wow. So that's the thing, like. There is no rent control happening in Portugal. If you are landlord and if your house is falling apart you can ask for whichever price you desire.So, by that time I was doing some research, like thinking to myself, this cannot be legal. Like this is insane. And then I found out that it was indeed legal. And then I was doing another research to see if someone was fighting against this. So that's how I, I found out about Stop Despejos.And by that time, my ex-boyfriend also had some issues with this landlord. So, yeah, that's how I got to Stop Despejos I'm there since 2018. It's also an autonomous collective. So we are not connected to any political party. We are self-sufficient. And we are anti-capitalist as well.And we also work together with Habita, which is also a housing rights association that also fights, evictions, and provides legal advice to people that are on the risk of addiction. Mm-hmm.[00:05:01] Chris: Yeah. And that name popped up as well, Habita, in some of the news press releases that came out regarding the demonstrations of this past weekend.And so maybe we could start from there while it's still fresh in your minds with these recent actions that were organized by, Stop Despejo s. Nice. That came to pass this weekend and, and culminated in, in marches and protests on the 1st of April.My first question is what did each of you see over the course of the protests and what has been the response in the aftermath?[00:05:37] Joana: So this protest was organized not only by Stop Despejos and Habita was also by a lot of different collectives and associations, not only the housing rights collectives, also people that got in involved, dozens of different organizations that were preparing and working for this protest.We got around 20,000 people on the streets. I'm not good with numbers. David is the mathematician. But yes, around 20,000 people on the streets, which is massive for Portugal, to be honest.There wasn't the housing rights protests in Lisbon. I think the last one was organized by Stop Despejos and Habita, which was during 2018, if I'm not mistaken. So yes, personally I wasn't expecting that much people on the streets, but it was really beautiful to see this amount of people organized and marching the streets and asking not only for better housing, but also the right to belong to the city.You know, to have a city that it's not only made for tourists or for or for the rich or for private investors, but for a real inclusive city that is made for its people, for the people that works there, for the people that that lives there. So, that was really beautiful. It was beautiful to watch people shouting. It was really awesome.[00:07:13] Chris: I imagine that being able to see, that amount of people, and not necessarily the number, that kind of abstract 20,000, but the number of people that you would've seen in the streets as well is a really deep way to measure the discontent and the crisis as opposed to just imagining that so many people or just like a few people share these sentiments, right.[00:07:38] Joana: Yes, of course. And you would see everyone on the streets. Like, you would see people that living on the city center, but also people that live in the social neighborhoods, in the outskirts of the city as well.Like all of them together demanding better housing and a better city and rent controls. So it was, it was amazing. When I woke up the next morning, I felt really grateful, even though there was some, there was some police violence at the end of the demonstration. Still, I woke up feeling really grateful for that day, for sure.[00:08:14] Chris: Thank you. And David, how, what was your impression of the demonstrations?[00:08:21] Davide: Yeah, it was, it was impressive. Let me say that Habita is a part of a European coalition called European Action Coalition for the Right to Housing and to the City. And together with Habita, we organized the outing Action Day every year.But we could feel it, we could feel it because we have been organizing some preliminary meeting and they were full of people. I mean, you can feel this moment when the people wants to take some action and we could really feel it.It was great.[00:08:57] Chris: In fact[00:08:59] Davide: our previous campaign was called " Retomar la Ciudad" (Take Back the City). Mm. And we really felt that for one day we took the city. Mm-hmm. It, it was great because. I mean, when you are walking in such a big demonstration and you look back and you see the street full of people and you know that you and your comrades are responsible somehow for that, it, it is really an amazing feeling. And now we will see where, what will happen. This depends on us, but also on, on the willingness of other people to, to join ouraction.[00:09:38] Chris: So doing, you know, the research that I could online when I started looking up the protests Lisbon, online in the English speaking world.Anyways, there was clearly this kind of Associated Press press release that came out because every Anglophone media outlet that I could find that had put something out in this regard had the exact same wording. Yes. Right. And, and you, you can start to realize very quickly what's happening in that regard.But one of the things that was written in the press release is this as follows. And it said that"the figures released by Confi which collects data on housing shows that rents in Lisbon, which is a tourist hotspot, have jumped 65% since 2015, and sale prices have skyrocketed 137% during the same period.According to another real estate data company, Casafari, rents increased 37% last year alone, more than current figures in Barcelona or Paris," which are two of the most overt touristed or visited cities in the world."Low wages in high rents have made Lisbon the world's third least viable city to live in, according to a study by insurance brokers, CIA Landlords."And that's not a joke. CIA landlords.Anyways, so I imagine reading this, I imagine that it hasn't always been like this. Right. And I'm wondering if you, could each tell our listeners a little bit about how this came to pass? I know you mentioned the change of the law, of the five year lease law and I guess how you've both seen the city change in the course of your time there.[00:11:37] Davide: Yeah, I, I must say that apart from the new renting law, so what happened also in, I think 2013, it, that Ryan Air came to Lisbon together with Airbnb and this destroyer, I mean, completely ruin in the city. And before that Ryan Air was only flying to Porto. And then the new government was lobbied to allow Ryan Air. Then Airbnb was invented.And Libo is a city where people I mean, there, there's not much job. So people really look into Airbnb as a way to make money. It is so easy. I mean, the only thing that we can sell is ourself, and they were very willing to sell ourselves. Mm-hmm. To, to make a decent salary.I mean, it was really perfect because it's full of people that wants to come to Lisbon because it's such a beautiful city, and we just have this to sell, the city itself.And so all the neighborhoods, the central neighborhood of Lisbon were flooded with Airbnb. It's really incredible. And with Airbnb in town like that, without any regulation, without any regulation, I mean, everybody can rent how many houses or floods you want in whatever situation they are.So the price is skyrocketed. You go from 1000 euro per square meter to buy a house. Now it's 5,000. Wow. I mean, people, maybe bought a flat for 100,000 euro. Now they sell it for 500,000 euros right there. Wow.And now it's, it's even getting worse because, so when in 20 17, I was evicted. My rent passed from 500 euros per month to almost double. But now I, I know people renting a flat, a small flat, like for 1500 euros per month. And the salary is still the same. And then a lot of real estate investment. Really, I mean all, all the big players in the real estate in investment, they just came to town.They started to build luxury condos. There are la luxury condos everywhere in town. Mm. Really? Everywhere. It's crazy. I mean, you see construction sites everywhere, but for room for nobody. Cause the, all these luxury condominiums are, are actually empty. They're just houses that are bought and then sold after a few years and things like that.they're just made to store money essentially. Mm. So there are, there are a lot of economic factor, like one is tourism, and the other real estate speculation.[00:14:30] Joana: And this is all also promoted by the state itself. It's not, yeah. It's not just a matter of, you know, it is the state also giving tax benefits to these private investors, also to digital nomads, you know, that come here and they can, they are the ones that can pay all these higher rents because the minimum wage in Portugal is around 740 euros.And you can find, and there's basements that are 700 euros per month basement. I dunno nowadays exactly how much is a one bed one bedroom apartment in the center. But I would say it's around 1000 euros. You can easily find a one bedroom apartment for 1000 was per month.Yeah.[00:15:23] Chris: Speaking of tourism and Airbnb, we can't really speak about these themes anymore without speaking about there's other names we could use, but digital nomads. And this was another thing that was brought up in the English press releases is around this question in Europe that referred to as the "Golden Visa" And in the report it's written that "the current socialist government announced last month that a housing package among other measures, ended the controversial Golden Visa scheme and banned new licenses for Airbnb properties.Critics, however, say it is not enough to lower prices in the short term." Now, given that, I imagine that you two make up some of these critics, I'm curious if you could explain a little bit for our listeners about what that Golden Visa program is or was and what it has done to the city and culture in Lisbon, if not the country as a whole.[00:16:26] Joana: The Golden visa program is basically the state giving tax benefits to residents from outside of European Union. And all they need to do basically is to buy a property for at least half a million euros and also to create some jobs. But in practice they just need to buy a property.So what happens is a lot of companies are also increasing the prices of houses because they know that someone will buy it for those prices. So that's one of the consequences of the Golden visa. And actually the government is not ending the golden Visa. It's just making some changes and changing the name because they're still giving tax benefits to someone that wants to invest in Portugal. So this is basically the so-called socialist government financing people and companies that are already rich.So it's basically the state giving money to the rich. And these measures are not enough. I mean, this government is only socialist by the name. It's not socialist in practice because even those measures that aim to put Airbnbs back in the market, it's still the state giving tax benefits to those landlords, to those people that own Airbnb.[00:17:55] Davide: Let maybe just a little bit more precise, you know Portugal belongs to the Shengen area. So if you have a Portuguese visa, you can travel everywhere in Europe. So, this Golden Visa program was a way for any outside the European Union to get a visa for the Shengen area by buying a property. And so it is really something terrible. Mm, I mean, to actually sell visas to rich people. It has to do a lot, not just with the fact of making the housing market crazy because of course the, the price is skyrocketed, but also it has to do with money laundering.And it was really, really a bad thing for Portugal in general. And also this idea of digital nomads. It's somehow similar. It targets other kind of people, not the super rich from, I don't know, China or whatever, but it, it targets people working probably in some startup in California or places like that.Just a way to make life easier in Portugal for rich people and more miserable for people in Portugal because the problem is that the economy is not very solid in Portugal. And so instead of investing money in building a better economy, they just trying to attract people that already have money, right?It's becoming like economically very depending of money from abroad, from money, from tourist, money from people that actually work abroad. Just a nice place to live for people from outside and the people from inside. Well, too bad for them.[00:19:48] Joanne: Yeah. The main issue is that the digital nomads usually come to live here earning salaries, wages from their home country. So they come to live here with salaries from the United States, for instance. So for them it's not, paying 800 euros per rent is really cheap. Which is not for us. So, that's the inequality here.[00:20:11] Chris: Yeah. And, and that the place is more often than not, I mean, you could say almost always, but we'll say more often than not temporary in the eyes of the digital nomad, the tourist, perhaps even the people who purchase the golden visa because there's always this sense of, well, I could do this somewhere else, right? Because there's other places to be a digital nomad. There's other places to be a tourist. There's other places to get golden visas and on and on. And so I wanted to ask about the kind of, we'll say blowback or perhaps xenophobia that can arise from these things and does, and has. You know, it's something that I've seen here in Oaxaca over the last seven or eight years, especially in the last couple of years with inundation or flooding of this place with digital nomads, over tourism, Airbnb.And it's been hard personally, but it's been easy visually to watch a kind of resentment and xenophobia grow against foreigners here as a result of this gentrification and culture loss. And so I'm curious if you two have seen anything similar in that regard in Lisboa or how has the general response been, and I think it's important to say here as well, that at least at the beginning when Airbnb tends to create this strangle hold in a tourist destination that a lot of the people who are, who are renting these flats or homes are locals. Right? And then certainly later on you see companies, corporations like Blackstone in Europe taking over.These issues, we often try to make them simple to understand when in fact they're extremely complex and complicated. And so I guess I'm curious what you both have seen in regards to the loss or perceived loss of culture in Lisboa and the reactions from locals in regards to that against the foreigner, or perhaps against the systemic structures.[00:22:21] Joana: Yeah, it's a really, it's a really interesting question. I would let David go first if you, if you have already something on your mind.[00:22:29] Davide: Well, I don't think Portuguese people are very vocal in the xenophobia.As a foreigner myself I never faced it. I mean, in general they're quite polite. Racism is always against black people, or the gypsy. I mean, there is some vague resentment, against tourists, but not too much. You, you don't feel it too much? I mean, I don't feel it, so...[00:23:03] Joana: yes. Me neither.I mean, you have people that feel really annoyed by tourists, especially people that lives in the center, obviously. They feel annoyed, but I wouldn't call it hatred, you know, in the same way that I would call hatred towards immigrants from Nepal or from India.Those are the ones that I would say that get more hatred and also the gypsy community. And people from social neighborhoods. I mean, immigrants that live, in social neighborhoods. So I wouldn't say that there's a lot of hatred towards tourist themselves.I would say only like annoyance, because there's also people that stand that really believes that without tourism we would have no economy. You know, they cannot imagine the end of tourism, let's put it this way. They aren't capable, you know, of imagining a new economy that wouldn't depend on tourism.And you could see that during the pandemic. So I wouldn't really call, it hate, only annoyance. Let's put it that way. Yeah.[00:24:19] Chris: And you had mentioned earlier that the current socialist government is socialist by name and not in practice. And I'm curious, how Stop Despejos sees the necessity of making change from the grassroots, or if there's a possibility of doing that on the electoral level.[00:24:43] Joanne: It has to happen on the grassroot level. Yes. Yes. We do not trust that a political party will solve the issue because, this is an issue that has been increasing of it over the years.And the state itself helps the increase of this issue. So we truly believe that in order for the change to happen, we need to be organized. People need to be organized. It's only through those grassroots movements that we feel that we are able to really create a radical change, a structural change.This is beyond political parties. I think it's more about the people and those grassroots movement. That's why we do not associate ourselves to any political party, even though some of them try. But yes our work is based on social movements and with people.We have tried to stop a lot of evictions that were not made by private landlords. They were made by the state. So, that's another reason. Me personally, I don't trust the state or political parties because the status itself is also able to evict and to destroy people, the right to adequate housing and the right to live in the city.So that's why we need to work with people and to work with the grassroot movement.[00:26:11] Davide: I would say that we are like more like let's say ecologists movement. We are really for system change and and not to change inside the system. But I must say that some people that used to belong to our organization, that really still very close to our organization, they founded a new movement for a referendum to ban Airbnb. Okay.This would be like using the system, but without passing through parties really to use some direct democracy tool inside the system. And now possibly next year there will be this referendum to ban Airbnb. Wow. We don't know because such a local referendum was never used in the history of Lisbon.So it is a tool that only exists in theory. In practice, we do not know. But still, this is something that may be the most anarchist in our group do not like, but in general, we are not against it. The use of this referendum tools.[00:27:19] Joana: Yeah, I think that we are not saying that, you know, every politician is the same or that every party is the same, of course, that we recognize that, you know, some politicians may be better than others.But at the same time it's what David was the saying. We want to make radical changes not outside of the system, not inside the system. Because even with good examples like the mayor of Barcelona, the system itself is so corrupt that it's really hard to make changes within the system.It's not just one person with good intentions that is gonna change the system.[00:27:59] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, at the end of the day, these issues that you've both spoken to are everyone's issues. They're not left issues, they're not right issues. They affect everyone. And you can kind of see through that and that the political spectrum in that regard is just incredibly divisive.And so I wanted to ask you both a little bit about, your advice suggestions around solidarity.Here in Oaxaca, it's a city that's been more and more touristed over the last we'll say 40 or 50 years. But really not on the tourist map until the last 10 years or so. And then at the end of the lockdowns became this kind of massive escape destination for a lot of Americans and Canadians and Europeans as well.And so there's this sudden kind of, oh, this is too much. And we never imagined it could be this bad, but suddenly we're there and it's here and we don't know how to deal with it. And maybe because of the nature of the history and culture and politics in this part of the world, but there isn't necessarily this, this level of communication, network building, solidarity that there is, for example, in Southern Europe. And so my first question in that regard is, what kind of advice would you offer people working with social movements here and in other parts of the world who need to build solidarity among the, citizenry, but also between organizations who haven't done that before?What advice would you have for them?[00:29:52] Davide: Well, difficult question. Yeah, difficult question. I don't know if we are such a, a good model because our results haven't been that great. But[00:30:02] Joana: it's a long process and I believe that we are still in that process, like in the middle of that process of building solidarity with different movements. I saw more solidarity perhaps during this organization of the protests of the demonstration. But I think it was a process that started already during the pandemic.So it's a long and and hard process to build solidarity between movements because most of the time, I mean, we do not get paid to do this political activity. So, you know, people have their own jobs and their own lives. And sometimes it's really hard to do something as simple as planning an assembly with different organizations or collectives.So I would say I mean, the best advice I could give is to be patient and to accept, really, that is going to be a process that sometimes you feel like you are all by yourself, that you are the only collective doing something. And other times you'll have a lot of people in your public assemblies.So, it's a long process and my best advice would be that, and also to respect the differences between several collectives and organizations and between people. What's the main goal?What's glue sticking all of it together. What are your enemies? Basically, what are the enemies that you are fighting? What type of city or what type of country would you like to live in? So, use your imagination and use it as a fuel also to create goals and to plan.[00:31:45] Davide: One thing is, is to be well organized as much as possible. And being organized for us, it's like we are a perfectly horizontal organization. We don't have any leader, but like something simple. Every time we meet, I mean every week we have one moderator, one taking notes.And then another thing which is important, it's kind of a blend between action and study. It is important to study, I mean, to, to growone's understanding but also it is important to actually act. You need to actually meet people that are in this situation you are fighting against. You need both, both action and, and study. And then one other thing is never get overwhelmed because when you start working, doing activity with people that are being evicted or losing their homes, these are let's say emotionally very heavy situation.And more often than not, these people are actually losing their home. You cannot do too much. And so it is important that you don't feel guilty for that. You don't spend all your life try to save others people life. Because if you do that for six months, then you quit the struggles. So it's better to keep like a lower profile, but to be consistent during the years.[00:33:19] Chris: Well thank you both for that. And then the other side of the question or the coin of the question. So, the first one was regarding social movements and then this next one is speaking to individuals. There's been this for me anyways, this clear view towards tourism as a kind of escapism that masquerades as freedom of choice, especially for those of us in the Americas, right?So the pandemic deepened that, to say the least. And as a result of people getting to choose where they live, the places they choose generally suffer as a result, you know, regardless of people's good intentions or even good behavior. And so sometimes it's hard to resist the urge to blame the foreigner and to focus on them instead of the system and the structures of oppression that it produces.But at the same time, we need the foreigner, in the context of digital nomadism and tourism and the golden visa, we need each of them, each of those people, to understand their consequence in the world. And so finally, I'd like to ask you both, what advice would you have for the tourists and expats who want to experience Portugal or who already live there, who perhaps want to act and proceed as responsible residents, for those who would want to visit.[00:34:53] Davide: Tourist must know that if he comes to Lisbon or she comes toLisbon. She will spend most time standing at other tourist like him. Just like an ecosystem just made of tourist, of tourist. If tourist here live actually in a strange ecosystem made of, just, of tourist then I think it's kind of not very nice experience.So to be more, more precise,half of the time a tourist will look at his smartphone and half of the time at other tourists like him. I think this, this way of leaving or traveling, it is very superficial. You don't get anything to come to Lisbon or to any other place in the world just to spend time look at on a smartphone or looking at other tourists like you.But this is like more moral statement. I mean, people should look inside themselves to start doing things which are more meaningful instead of just doing things that they happen to do because everybody does the same thing.[00:36:01] Joana: Yeah. It's a difficult question. I agree with, with David. I also worked on the tourist industry years ago. And I remember I got the feeling that the tourists in Lisbon kind of felt deceived. They would ask me all the time, where are the locals? Where can I find locals? You know, I only see tourists around me. Like, can you recommend me a place where, where the locals go and so on.So yeah, I would say the tourism basically is not worth it. You know, it's not worth going to Lisbon spending holidays. It's not just a matter of personal responsibility because I understand that people work and they feel the need to spend the holidays on some cheap destination and Lisbon is really cheap for a lot of tourists.It's more about systemic change, but at the same time, I believe that we still need to have some sort of personal responsibility. So I would say just go somewhere else where it's not too touristified, just try to choose another destination that is not totally exploited by the mass tourism to the golden and You know, and the digital knows honestly, I don't know how, how they could be more responsible because they are taking advantage of a situation, where that situation is only possible because the locals are getting affected by it. Maybe try to get involved in your local social movements. Get involved, try to know the neighbors and to do something. Use your privilege in order to change something. But be aware that you are only here because you are privileged enough to benefit from our government. Mm-hmm.[00:37:56] Chris: I think that's really important as well, this notion of, if you're gonna go and live in a place, understand the history, understand the culture, understand where you are, when you are, and get involved, right.Get involved with the social movements and the grassroots of the place. And so, you know, for our listeners or maybe people either visiting Portugal or living there as well, how might they find out more about Stop[00:38:24] Joanne: They can find us on social media.We have a Facebook page, also an Instagram page, and all of our assemblies are open to the public. Everybody can go there. Usually our meetings are on an association called City Guide. In the center, in one of the most gentrified areas of the city center.So it's cool that we have our meetings there. And it's every Mondays at 7:30 PM. Usually we start late cause we're in Portugal. But everybody's welcome. Everybody's is more than welcome. You don't need to to be like a researcher or academic or to even suffer or to have suffered some kind of eviction.Everybody's welcome to our assemblies and to join.[00:39:15] Davide: I would like to say that it's really beautiful to be part of like a movement and a collective, like Stop Despejos. So, when after I joined, I was facing a difficult time in my life. And, and for me it was very important to, to be there. I mean, first of all, to see that there are people with bigger problem than mine.And then it's, for me, it's really a pose from my personal life. I go there and also must say that the people that are involved in this kind of struggle are in general pretty special people. So you meet people you would wouldn't normally meet at work or, or in a pub.It's really enriching things to do.[00:40:03] Chris: Fantastic. Well, I, I'll make sure all of those links for social media and the website are up on the end of tourism website when the episode launches. And from what I understand, there will be some extra media to share.Well, it's been a, a great pleasure to meet and speak with both of you, at least virtually, and maybe one day in person.You'll be welcome. You'll be welcome than welcome, Chris. Yes, likewise.[00:40:30] Davide: Thank you. Thank you.[00:40:31] Joana: Thank you so much, Chris. Thank you for having us. Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

What is Design Thinking...? - Chris Good describes it as "Solving problems in a very human and iterative way", but that just scratches the surface. Stay tuned and be a fly on the wall as Craig Stargardt and Chris converse about the holistic advantages and uses of design thinking. Craig and Chris spent many hours working together to develop the Masters of Fine Arts in Design Thinking graduate degree program at Radford University. This conversation covers that process and how they implement Design Thinking in their everyday lives.  **To watch this full episode, search "MotivateForward" on Youtube or @Motivate_Forward on Instagram** For more resources and my booking information, visit my website www.MotivateForward.com.

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, wellbeing friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. As you know, my name is Chris Newbold. I serve as executive vice president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. You know, our goal here on the podcast is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the wellbeing space within the legal profession, and in the process, build and nurture a national network of wellbeing advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. As always, I am joined by my co-host, Bree Buchanan. Bree, how are you doing today? BREE BUCHANAN: I'm doing great, Chris. Great to be here. CHRIS: Good, good. As you all know, Bree is the president of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. Bree, we have some really exciting news to share about the institute and the journey that we're on to engineer this culture shift. Would you maybe give us a clue as to the breaking news that I think that we were so excited about? BREE: Nobody could be more excited than me because you said, you know, Bree is the board president. Well, up until this news, I had two jobs. I was the acting executive director, so I am just delighted to let people know we have hired our first full-time staff person and that is our inaugural executive director. Her name is Jennifer DiSanza. She comes to us with a whole host of experience in wellbeing issues and particularly with the law students. For many reasons, we wanted to bring Jennifer on board, but also strategically, we really realized that's where she's coming from is the future of our profession. And also, aside of where we know there's a lot of behavioral health distress and stress on the youngest members of our profession and the law students. So we're just thrilled to have Jennifer on board. CHRIS: Yeah. See, I had the privilege of serving with you Bree on the hiring committee. Boy, we have a dynamic leader now that will be working day-to-day to think about advancing wellbeing in our profession. You know, there's so much work to be done as you well know. We're actually planning on having Jennifer as our next podcast guest, which will be awesome to be able to just talk about the vision, why she's passionate about this work. It will also happen to be after the conclusion of some strategic planning that we as a board will be doing. So things are just really aligning well with both what has transpired, where we're going, and then focusing on what lies ahead in terms of some big issues that we have to tackle as we think about the wellbeing of lawyers and legal professionals in the profession. With that, today we're going to circle back to, we've spent considerable time in the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. You know, we had anticipated a three part series on this, but sometimes you extend an offer and you get somebody who's so awesome that you sit there and go, we have to expand this even further. Right? BREE: Along came Kori. Yeah. CHRIS: That's right. Along came Kori. And when Kori came along, we're like, okay, we're breaking the rules. We're totally bringing Kori into the mix. And so we were really excited to welcome Kori Carew to the podcast. Bree, would you be so kind to introduce Kori? And again, this is I know a podcast that we've been very excited and looking forward to. BREE: Absolutely. So Kori is a people inclusion strategist, an advocate, a speaker, a writer, a status quo disruptor. Got to love that. Child of God, wife and mother of two curly-haired, wise, energetic, fierce, spitfire daughters. Her family is multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious and spans multiple nationalities. She brings a fierce love of community and belonging that transcends differences to work, ministry and life. She loves to sing, cook, entertain, dance in the hallways at work, we need a video component of that, and read. Equipping leaders to be inclusive, to interrupt bias and disrupt the status quo. At her day job, she focuses on developing and implementing strategies for individual career and diversity and inclusion success, and helps organizations build bridges across differences and improve inclusion. BREE: When she's not working, she focuses her voice and talent on issues of gender equity and rights, inclusion, and human and civil rights, serving in her church and community, and cherishing her phenomenal tribe and community. She's energized by helping people live their very best lives. Kori was the Director of Strategic Diversity Initiatives for seven years at Shook, Hardy. And then she came over to Seyfarth and is now the Chief Inclusion and Diversity Officer there and oversees their really spectacular wellbeing program, Seyfarth Life, and a whole host of other initiatives we're going to hear about. So Kori, welcome to the podcast. CHRIS: Yay. KORI CAREW: Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me to be on this podcast and also very much the work that you are doing. This conversation of wellbeing for attorneys is such an important conversation. It's one that we probably started having too late, and it's one where diversity and inclusion, there's more work to be done than time. I'm super thankful for all that you do and all that you do to help our profession be better, so thank you very much. BREE: You bet. Kori, I'm going to start off. We ask all of our guests a variation of this question. What experiences in your life are drivers behind your passion for work around diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging and wellbeing? KORI: Thank you for that question. And of course, you're causing me to go down a bit of memory lane. You would think this is an easy question, but it actually is not. It's not as easy because it forces you to look in the rear view mirror and try to understand where the dots connected to where you are. Before I do that, I do want to make one small correction. Seyfarth Life is an incredible initiative at Seyfarth that I am super proud of and one of the things that energized me about joining the firm. It has a steering committee that leads it. It's four partners at the firm, all of whom have a connection to wellbeing and mindfulness. My department and my role actually does not oversee Seyfarth Life, but we do work very closely with them. Because as one of the founding members, Laura Maechtlen noted from the very beginning, there's that intersection between inclusion and diversity and belonging and wellbeing, and the two work very closely together. But my department does not oversee Seyfarth Life. So just wanted to make sure I give credit to the right people. BREE: Absolutely, give credit where it's due. KORI: You know, because they're awesome and they do great work. In fact, if I may brag on them, out of the steering committee members, one of them is the chair of the largest department in the firm and an executive committee member and co-chair of the national diversity and inclusion action team. Oh, wait a minute. No, that's not right. Three are office managing partners. They're part of this steering committee, this leadership group, because they actually practice wellbeing and mindfulness and meditation in their own personal lives and allow it to influence how they lead. So I know Seyfarth didn't pay me to do a promotion, but I felt like I needed to shout some guys out. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: Our talent team helps them quite a bit in terms of organizing programs and handling the administrative and logistic things. Okay. So to answer your question, what are the experiences? I often say this and it is true that when I look at my life in the rear view mirror, how I ended up where I am makes a lot more sense as I connect the dots in ways that I probably couldn't have foreseen. For example, I never intended to be a diversity and inclusion professional. I actually never intended to go to law school. I started my university career as an electrical engineering major. When I came to the U.S., I wanted to build planes. That was my thing. I wanted to be an aeronautical engineer. I wanted to build planes. I loved science. I could spend hours in the lab. One of the best gifts I ever got was a lab coat. My dad had a custom drawing board built for me when I was a teenager that I carried with me everywhere because technical drawing, engineering drawing was one of my top subjects. KORI: So a lot of things make sense in hindsight. I look at my family composition and my sisters and I were all born in different countries. We have different passports. We grew up in Nigeria, a country with over 300 different ethnic groups with different languages and traditions and customs, so there's that. My family is multi-religious, multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-racial and there's just so much diversity there. You know, in the family tree, there's a granduncle that's a Methodist church bishop, and one that's an Imam. And my grandfather's father was a teacher, was a teacher of the Quran. And so all of that diversity is there in the family, but it probably influenced how my parents raised my sisters and I and how even through childhood, I was always the person who was connecting the dots between similarities between people. And today we would call that cultural fluency, this ability to recognize cultural differences and not judge them but just adapt to them and be able to say, okay, you know what? KORI: It looks to me like person A is looking through a lens that's different than person B, but they're looking at the same thing. So how can I get these two people to be on the same page? So there's that family dynamic. But another thing that happened when I was growing up that I do think influenced me quite a bit. I grew up in Nigeria. Most of my childhood, we had one military dictator after another. So I grew up with coos happening more often than I would prefer. There were times that things broke out into religious violence. You're talking about incidents where a few people are killed or a lot of people are killed and everything goes to standstill, everybody's on edge. You don't leave your home. When the students go on riots because they're protesting something and things get out of hand, you're turning off the lights in your home and sort of huddled together, trying to make sure that you stay together as a family until everything passes over. So that was also something that I grew up around and experiencing. KORI: And then my parents are from Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone is actually my home country. If you ask me where I'm from, I will tell you I was born in Canada, grew up in Nigeria, but I'm from Sierra Leone. Because in my culture, you're where your father's from. So my entire identity has always been that I am from Sierra Leone. In the '90s, Sierra Leone began to experience a very brutal civil war, which calling it a civil war is actually inaccurate. You have a bunch of people with weapons who terrorize the population for 11 years. And it's been one of the most brutal wars that the world has seen at least in recent times. And that impacted my family in the sense that we lost people, in the sense that I hadn't been back to Sierra Leone for a long time. And it kind of started with my mom not feeling it was safe enough for us to go and visit, with grandparents living on the run and being sick and dying and me not seeing them in a long time because of just this state of chaos. KORI: And all of this fueled how I ended up going to law school, wanting to do human rights work, wanting to be a human rights lawyer, feeling as if I learned so much about the American system and the role that the legal profession played in terms of maintaining democracy and freedom and wanting to multiply that. Right. But then I go to law school. I graduate. I fall in love with a boy who I actually started dating in college, and I ended up in Kansas City because I followed a boy. You know, career took a different turn, ended up being a defense lawyer. And then you fast forward to doing an evaluation and me going through a process of saying, okay, I've done a lot of the things I wanted to do. I've achieved a lot of the things I wanted to achieve. I wanted to try cases. I wanted to build this reputation. I wanted to be successful in A, B, C, D. KORI: And I started taking inventory of the things I was passionate about, the skills I developed, the experiences I had and where I was losing time. You know, where was I given my time in community? What were the things that I could lose myself doing in such deep flow that I don't even recognize that time has gone by? And that journey ended up leading me to inclusion and diversity work and I haven't turned back since. There's some aspects of the legal profession I miss. I miss trying cases. I miss solving problems for clients. It may sound like the weirdest thing, but boy, playing around with evidence, rules, and figuring out how to get things in or keep things out is a nerdy love of mine. And so those are just some of the experiences that I would say led me to this love for helping people build bridges and I'm empower people to succeed despite the challenges, and being able to create just a level of cultural fluency amongst groups of people so that we understand how much better we are together as opposed to isolated from one another. So that's a long answer. BREE: Well, what an amazing life you've had to date and an incredible background that informs your work at a depth that I know Chris and I can't even begin to imagine. CHRIS: For sure. Kori, how long have you been more squarely centered on the inclusion and diversity side of things? KORI: I have been for 11 years now full-time diversity. What I realized, you know, somebody asked me a question similar to this, how long have you been doing diversity work, which is different from what I usually hear. I actually did the inventory and realized that, you know, 29 years ago, when I first came to the U.S., that was when I actually started doing presentations. At the time, we called them multiculturalism. We started doing presentations on bridging differences, on being able to understand different cultures and how you navigate it. And so I've been actually teaching on diversity, inclusion, cultural fluency leadership topics now for 29, 30 years. But it being my full-time job, that happened when I left litigation and moved over to Shook, Hardy & Bacon. CHRIS: Okay. I think a good point to maybe start the conversation is, you know, again, your perspective is so unique and informed. For diverse members of the profession, can you talk to our listeners about some of the more challenging aspects of the last couple of years? KORI: Yeah. So the last couple of years have been tough for everyone. This pandemic, it's been brutal and it's impacted us in so many different ways. We've lost our sense of certainty to the extent that we didn't had any. We've lost our ability to have some kind of predictability, something that is a core need, a core need for many of us. Well, not for many of us, for everyone. It's actually a core human need. And so we've been sort of thrown into this whirlwind of uncertainty with no deadline, right? We went from thinking, well, I'll speak for myself. You know, since I'm not a scientist, I foolishly thought, well, maybe in two weeks I'll go back to the office. And then it was a month. And then I thought six weeks. And then I thought for sure by summer 2020 we'd be able to go out and about and things would be quasi under control. And here we are, you know, some 28, 29 months later and we still have COVID. I'm sick right now recovering from COVID after avoiding it for almost 30 months, I get it. KORI: So you have that benchmark that is impacting everyone and the uncertainty that we've seen with everything going on around us. But as with everything, I think people from historically underrepresented and marginalized groups, what happens is the things that... There's this saying that the things, and I'm going to probably say it wrong. And it may be an African American saying, but it's this thing that what gives some people a cold will give others the flu. And so what you've seen then is populations that have been historically marginalized and underrepresented and haven't had access to full equity, had been impacted very differently by the same storm that we're all in. So we're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same boat. We're experiencing it differently. So communities of color, we know got hit by COVID much harder. KORI: And you have that intersection between race, between housing inequity, between education inequity, between healthcare inequity and healthcare access, all of those things coming together to adversely impact some groups more. So if you are someone who is Brown or Black, or from one of these historically marginalized communities, and you are going to work during the pandemic, or you're working from home, you are more likely to have family members who have been directly impacted by COVID, right? You are more likely to have lost family members. You also, generally speaking are more likely to be in a position where you are in an extended family situation where you are responsible for more people than just yourself. You know, one of the things that we know, for example, that impacts generational wealth is that those of us from communities of color oftentimes are responsible not just for ourselves, but for extended family members. KORI: So you have that dynamic playing, then you have the racial pandemic, which has been going on, but in the last two years have come to fevered pitch. And so the daily trauma of dealing with racism and microaggressions then gets compounded by all the incidents, George Floyd, Charles Cooper, and all the other incidents that have been bombarding us from our television screens, from the news reports, from articles. And so now all of a sudden everything is right in your face and you're dealing with all of it at the same time. And so those are some of the things that are professionals from "diverse communities," from underrepresented marginalized communities have been dealing with. And our reserves have been tapped into and overstretched to where for some of us, it feels like it's been just too much. BREE: Absolutely. It's unimaginable just how much to carry on in that space. All of the things that you just described, this litany of horrors is on top of just the day-to-day difficulty as been expressed to me, and reading in my friends of people of color, just the microaggressions and just how hard it is. Just take away pandemic and everything else and the racial reckoning, how hard it can be just to get through the day. I can't even imagine. It is absolutely just too, too much. Kori, there's so much to unpack here. I wanted to kind of pushing us along here talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion and talking about belonging and overlaying that. I mean, when I started looking in the legal profession, we talk about DEI, it was diversity then DEI, and now we're getting into some of the really, to me, needy and interesting stuff around belonging. I know that you created a belonging project at Seyfarth. Could you talk to us about the importance of that, and also about this project that you got started at Seyfarth? KORI: Sure. Let me separate them out. Belonging is a conversation that more and more of us are having, and it is fairly new to the conversation when you're talking about diversity and inclusion. It started with we talked about diversity, and then we started talking about diversity and inclusion, and now we've included equity and belonging. Belonging goes to that sense, that feeling that each of us have when we belong and we feel like we are part of a group and that we belong to something that is bigger than us. It is also a core human need. Brené Brown has this phrase that she says that we have three irreducible needs, and they are to be loved, to connect, and to belong. What we know from the research is that when we don't have belonging, it impacts us. It is wired into our DNA to belong to something. KORI: So we will either have healthy belonging, or we will seek a belonging that may not be healthy and may not be good. This is where you can queue in hate groups and cult because they will do anything to belong. We will also conform to fit in so that we have a quasi sense of belonging. The problem though is that when we don't have belonging, we actually see physiological, physical, spiritual, mental, psychological impact on our wellbeing. It impacts our sense of health. Forget our sense of health. It actually impacts our health, right? We know that exclusion and the lack of belonging actually results in increased depression, increased high blood pressure, increased diabetes. Incidentally, a lot of the same things that racial trauma and microaggressions also causes on the human body. And so if we don't have that sense of belonging, then we are not able to actually actualize that sense of inclusion where everyone is able to be leveraged and their differences and their strengths leveraged so that they can succeed as they want to succeed. KORI: And without belonging, you don't get wellbeing. But conversely, without wellbeing, you can't cultivate that sense of belonging. And so those two things are intertwined as well as this concept of engagement, which also is in the mix, right? You can't create engagement unless you have social connection and belonging. And so all of these things come together. Unfortunately, in many of our organizations, they're treated as separate, right? In many organizations, you have the wellbeing function being managed in a way that it doesn't speak to diversity, doesn't speak to belonging at all. So imagine now we just talked about COVID and we talked about how COVID has impacted everyone. Then imagine you're developing a wellness initiative or a wellbeing initiative and you're not stopping to think, oh, wait a minute, because of diversity, this pandemic has impacted people in different ways. KORI: And so I can't just trot out a wellbeing program without factoring in diversity and how diversity has resulted in different people experiencing this pandemic differently. Similarly, we fail when we try to, for example, have a wellbeing initiative that doesn't stop and think, oh, wow, we're not talking about racial trauma. We're not talking about microaggressions. We're not talking about the impact of implicit bias and exclusion on the psychological and physical wellbeing of the people in our organization. And so what's happening is these concepts are tied together, but in our organizations and most of our organizations, we're not doing DEI and incorporating wellbeing and we're not doing wellbeing incorporating DEIB. Instead, we're acting as if they're completely separate and they're not. CHRIS: I mean, I think it goes without saying, we, I think as human beings, sometimes we compartmentalize of there's this and then there's that. I think that from the infancy of the institute, I think we've emphasized the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion as part of, has to flow through everything, every lens that we look at from the wellbeing perspective. But I have to admit, it's been more challenging than I think, than we've appreciated because sometimes we look a little bit myopically at some of these issues without broadening our lens. That's the perspective that I think that you can bring our listeners that, again, this intersection of diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging with wellbeing, I guess I'd be curious on just, how can we merge? Right? Because again, even the fact that there's organizations that work over here and organizations that work over here, and we really should be just the coalition and the umbrella and the totality of how it all works together is something that I don't know that we appreciate the magnitude of. KORI: Well, and the only way we can appreciate the magnitude is if we have these honest conversations. But we also have to have the conversations around the structural and the cultural underpinnings, right? How do we have conversations about wellbeing that take into consideration differences? That take into consideration, okay, we're telling people, hey, we have therapy or we have EAP, or we have whatever the organization offers. But how do you do that and also acknowledge that for some communities that there is a stigma around maybe going to a therapist? How do you have that conversation with those communities? Or that racial bias and racial aggressions are having an impact on people, but you have an entire generation of Black people, for example, who have survived by plowing through all the challenges that the world has put in front of us. And to sit down and talk about the way in which racism has impacted us is asking us to put our shields down, which means opening up ourselves to attack, which means possibly being accused of playing the race card. Right? KORI: All of things that you may have grown up in a time where we just didn't talk about that in mixed company, we only talked about that with each other. And so there are all these layers, all these layers. I recently listened to a friend of mine, Ratu Basin, and she was talking about how it feels for her as someone of Indian heritage to see how much yoga, for example, has been whitewashed. There's so many conversations to be had even in the wellbeing space, even when we're talking to people about things like self-care. Well, what are you recommending? Because some of the things we tell people to do for self-care, go get a massage, who can afford that? What culture support that kind of self-care? And is that really self-care or is that treating a symptom? Should self-care and wellbeing be about a way of life and a way of working such that we don't need these emergency [inaudible 00:32:26] like solutions to fix the symptoms, right? KORI: And that's the big conversation and that's the conversation I'm hearing some lawyers begin to ask where they say, the organization says they care about wellbeing, but we're getting these other messages that say it's productivity and hours and billables that matter, right? How do we shift the culture and how we're embracing these topics in a way that makes it more meaningful? I just realized, I didn't even answer your second question about the belonging project, but yeah, this is the stuff that to me, I see a lot of potential for us to have really good conversations that can lead to solutions that are more inclusive of a diverse profession. BREE: Kori, you're clearly such a thought leader and a visionary in this space. Can you talk a little bit about how do we get change to occur in a profession, the legal profession that is so reluctant to change? Even more so than general society. Where do you see the bright points of really being able to make some change? KORI: Can you repeat that question? BREE: Yeah. Just about how do we get change to occur in the legal profession? You know, this is a profession that is just so stayed and slow and bound up in tradition. This is the way we do it, that sort of thing. And here you are with these fabulous ideas, working with a very large law firm, having come from another very large law firm so you're in this space. What are your ideas for actually getting real change to occur? Where are the pressure points, I guess? KORI: Well, I think some of the pressure points are actually external. You asked me a question earlier about the last two years, something that I didn't mention that has impacted a lot. It's impacting individuals from underrepresented groups, but it's also impacting our organizations. Is this fake cultural war that is also going on, you know, regardless of what political party you're in, I think we can acknowledge that for the last six years, there has been an attack on everything that we are trying to accomplish in diversity and inclusion. White is now Black, Black is now white. And if we are in a state of being, for example, where I'll use Florida as an example where someone can say, we want to ban any training if it makes someone uncomfortable. What you're essentially saying is let's keep the status quo the way it is, even if the status quo supports white supremacy. KORI: Even if the status quo is inequitable. You would rather keep the status quo than have an uncomfortable conversation. When it comes to the legal profession, in particular, law firms, because of how we are constructed. A law firm essentially has multiple owners. It's not like a corporation that has a board of directors and has shareholders. Let's say you have a law firm of a thousand people and 300 of them are partners. You have 300 people running around who think that everybody should have an equal say in every single decision. It's one of the reasons that law firms function so differently from other companies and why decision making is so different. Everything we do is different. You know, we put people in leadership positions not because they're leaders, but because they're great trial attorneys or they're great business generators or whatever, whatever the criteria is, but rarely is it because someone actually is a good leader. KORI: And so we have this culture that we have built that really makes it difficult for us to have real hard conversations on the things that really matter, on the things that really can make change. So imagine that law firm now sitting in the last six years and even more so in the last three years. I can tell you when it comes to diversity, inclusion, many of us are throwing our hands up and saying, so how in the hell are we supposed to have this conversation then? If you're saying, oh, we can't talk about white privilege because someone says, oh, that offends me. Or we can't talk about systemic racism because someone's going to say, oh, wait a minute, if you say systemic racism is real, then that's anti-American. So we are living in a time where the terms racism, the terms CRT have been completely redefined to where they mean nothing that even resembles what they actually mean. KORI: And then we're over here arguing about these fictitious decisions, these fictitious definitions, and we're not actually doing the hard work that needs to be done, right. Because if you won't even acknowledge that systemic racism is real, then how do we evaluate the systems to see where we may be having inequitable results and then changing those systems? Because if you deny a thing exists, then we can't even address it. BREE: Absolutely. KORI: And so that's probably one of the biggest challenges I see, but also the biggest opportunity. And if anything is going to change when it comes to diversity, we have got to get more courageous about having difficult conversations, but conversations that are worthwhile, they are important. Nothing about creating equity is comfortable and cozy and touchy-feely, it's hard work. It requires us to say some things that we maybe may not have faced before, but we don't get to change what we won't face, what we won't acknowledge, and what we won't be honest about. It's like, you can't write a new end into the story if you won't acknowledge the truth of the story. That's the whirlwind that I think we are in now, not just as a profession, but as a country and a society. BREE: Absolutely. What an incredibly difficult place to be? Yeah, go ahead, Chris. CHRIS: Well, I was just going to say, I want to unpack that more. Let's do this. Let's take a quick break and come back because I mean, my burning question and Kori began to sort of thinking about it, which is what's the pathway to better, more productive, honest conversations, right? Because I think that you're right. The question is, how do we create the environments for ultimately that societal discussion to occur in the most productive way? So let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. — ADVERTISEMENT: Meet VERA, your firm's Virtual Ethics Risk Assessment Guide developed by ALPS. VERA's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring, to cybersecurity, and more. VERA: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Generous and discreet, VERA is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms like yours be their best. Visit VERA at alpsinsurance.com/vera.   — CHRIS: Okay. We are back with Kori Carew, our esteemed guests and the chief inclusion and diversity officer at Seyfarth Shaw. Kori, we were just getting into the, I think the discussion. I feel like we're going deeper than even I had thought we would in the conversation, which I love. You know, as we think now about we need to have the honest conversations, right. And so I would just be curious on your opinion as what's the pathway to get there. If we appreciate that there's a lot of noise and the volume levels are high, and there's a lot of yelling, frankly, on both sides of the equation. What's the pathway toward problem solving, thoughtful discussion, intentional discussion that ultimately advances the dialogue? KORI: Thank you very much for that question. Honestly, it's one I've been thinking a lot about. You know, I did do a TEDx in 2017 and the impetus for that TED really was that question that you just asked, which was, there's a lot of yelling and not enough dialogue that allows us to move into action. Since I gave that TED, I've sort of watched what's been going on in organizations and in the country. I don't think I would change anything about that TED, except that there are a few more things that I would emphasize. One of the first things that we have to do if we truly want to make progress, and I'm going to steal a Nigerian thing, tell the truth and shame the devil. We are avoiding being honest with ourself about so many things. Whether it is just being honest about the experiences people have in the organization, or being honest about where the gaps are, or being honest about what the failures are, or even individual honesty. KORI: That self-awareness to say, you know Kori, you talk a lot about wellbeing and you talk a lot about leadership, but the reason you talk about those things is because you were searching for something that you did not have in the leaders that you grew up under, right? So you were trying to create something for others that you didn't have, but you are also trying to create it for yourself. And there are many days that you totally suck. There are many days that you are making very bad wellbeing decisions. There are days that you are not as inclusive as you would want to be, but it's okay. And the only way you're going to get better is by acknowledging where you're not doing it right. Now, think about that when we're talking about gender or race or LGBT inclusion or disability inclusion. If we as individuals and we as organizations are not willing to be honest about our history, what has happened and what is happening, then we don't even have a starting point. KORI: And the way that we do that is very, very cliché. Getting comfortable with what is uncomfortable. I remember when I first started saying that, when I was at Shook, Hardy & Bacon and it wasn't even a thing many people were saying, and now people say it so often that it has lost its meaning. But it truly is the beginning point. And in too many of our organizations, we are shutting down any discussion or any movement in the name of trying to get consensus, or in trying to water things so much that they're meaningless, right? Or being so hyperworried about future possible hypothetical litigation that somebody may have over something that they don't like that they heard as opposed to possible litigation over people who do not feel like they are being treated equitably. You know, it's like we have to choose our heart. And so it's either the heart of sitting in the discomfort and learning things we may not want to learn, challenging ourselves, reaching deep to say, you know what? I don't really like that. KORI: When you talk to me about Christian privilege, this is a true story. Okay. True story. A [inaudible 00:46:22] of mine talked about Christian privilege. We're talking about something. She said, "Yeah, but there's also Christian privilege and people never talk about that." And can I admit to you that I was like, "Oh, is she for real? We're talking about racism and she's talking about Christian privilege." That was my initial reaction. But I sat with it. You know what? She was right. Because she was Pagan and I'm Christian. I've never had to use PTO for Christmas. My holidays are respected, they are recognized, they are centered, they are prioritized. But other people in this country who are not Christian do not have those privileges. Now that's a benign example because it's not one that makes people get as upset as some of the other topics. KORI: But the first step has to be a commitment to sit through the discomfort, sit through what may rub you wrong, and acknowledge that just because something is uncomfortable or just because something offends you does not mean the thing is wrong or it is offensive. And in many of our organizations, we haven't even gotten past that first part. Then the next part has to be a commitment to learn more. We have to operationalize being able to say to each other, tell me more, and not just, oh, I didn't like that training, or I didn't like what I was learning. But to say to yourself internally, okay, I didn't like that. But rather than projecting how I'm feeling it in this moment, I'm going to put myself in the position of saying, tell me more, help me understand why that bothered you, help me understand why you feel that way. Because until we're willing to do that, we're not going to learn. KORI: And without knowledge, we have no opportunity for growth. Growth comes with new knowledge. Growth comes with practicing new skill sets. Growth comes with trying things that you haven't done before. But if you're more invested in protecting the status quo than you are fighting for change, then the status quo will always win. And the status quo right now, it's not working for a lot of people from a lot of underrepresented and marginalized communities. Those are some of the things that have to happen. Oh, Chris, something else I want to add. Both sides. We got to talk about this both sides thing. Not every opinion and argument is equal, and that's something else that we're not willing to address head on. We've allowed inclusion to be so redefined that some people think it means anything and everything is of equal footing, right. KORI: But someone saying in the workplace, we need to be more inclusive of people with disabilities is not the same as someone saying, I don't think disabled people should have to work here. And sometimes what is crouching in is people want to hide behind inclusion to spew hate or bigotry or an excuse not to make the change and growth that is consistent with the so-called values of our organizations. I'll pause there because you're about [inaudible 00:50:05]. BREE: Yeah. I just want to comment to our listeners Kori's TED Talk, just in your browser, put in Kori Carew and TED Talk. I really encourage people to check it out. It is powerful and profound. So Kori, I'm going to ask you a question here that we also tend to ask this sometimes near the end, if you could look for, I don't know, five years or even a decade. If we can do a decent job around changing hearts and minds and attitudes around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging and wellbeing too, hopefully, how would the profession be different? What do you want to see? KORI: My goodness, my goodness, my goodness. Excuse me. That cough came up. If we could actually accomplish all these things that we've been talking about for 20 years, we would see leadership teams that are more humble in their approach, leadership teams that are people-centric, organizations that are listening to employees and actually care about what employees want. We would no longer be having conversations as if it's either you focus on the bottom line or you focus on employee happiness. Like we will understand that without happy employees who are engaged and doing fulfilling and meaningful work, we actually don't have a great bottom line to talk about. Right? Our organizations would look like inclusion and wellbeing and belonging, it's just part of the business strategy. It's not this separate siloed thing. It's not this thing that we talk about when we are worried about how the woman or the gays may react. Right. KORI: But it's just something that is operationalized into our values, into our competencies, into how we evaluate people, into how we promote people, and that we are constantly in humility, learning from each other. Right. So that even when somebody who's a chief inclusion and diversity officer, here's a phrase and someone says, "Did you realize that that was ableist?" That I would say, "I didn't. Tell me more." And once you tell me more, I changed my language, because we understand that we're always going to be moving. We're always going to be learning something new and there's always an opportunity to be better. And if we do that, we will also see different representation at all levels. We will actually have critical mass of diversity in our organizations. And then I would be unemployed. CHRIS: I was going to wrap up with this though, Kori, like if I was to serve up to you 500 managing partners, that were, again, I think one of the things that you've already mentioned is every individual in an organization is either additive or perhaps distracts from the culture that you're ultimately trying to create. A lot of the wellbeing discussion is about connecting and emphasizing wellbeing with decision makers and those who set the tone of organizations. And so my question to you is this, if I served up 500 managing partners of all sizes of firms around the country and they came and Kori was the keynote, what would be your message to them? KORI: My message to them would be that they are ridiculously in charge, that things happen in their organizations because they allow it, or they create it. And that by choosing to focus a hundred percent on their inclusive leadership skills and up in their ability to interrupt bias, to be culturally fluent, they could transform their organizations because where the leader goes, everyone else follows. BREE: Right. CHRIS: That's great. That's awesome. Well, again, Kori, you have certainly cultivated my curiosity, which I know is one of the things that you strongly advocate for. Couldn't be prouder to have you on the podcast and the sharing of your perspective. We got to get you more platforms for you to be able to shout loudly about these particular issues, because again, we got a lot of work to do, right. We know that there's a lot to be done in terms of realizing the potential of this profession, to realizing the potential of historically underrepresented and marginalized lawyers within our profession. Bree, I think that we all would agree that even as we pursue our wellbeing mission, that so much more has to be done on the diversity, equity, and inclusion perspective that integrates in the intersection there between those two that lanes need to merge in a much more substantive way. KORI: Thank you. CHRIS: Thank you, Kori. KORI: I appreciate it. I appreciate you having me. I appreciate you allowing Justin to come and hold my hand because she's my blinky today. I appreciate you inviting us to talk about what we're doing at Seyfarth and just my perspective as an individual separate from Seyfarth. Again, I've said this before, the work you're doing is so critically important. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for everything that you do to promote wellbeing in the profession. So important. CHRIS: Awesome. Well, again, thanks for joining us. We will be back with the podcast probably in a couple weeks with our executive director, Jennifer DiSanza, which we are so excited to be having her join us as we talk about the future of where this movement is going. Thanks again, Kori. And to all our friends out there, we will be back in a couple weeks.

Chris switched from Trello over to Linear for product management and talks about prioritizing backlogs. Steph shares and discusses a tweet from Curtis Einsmann that super resonated with the work she's doing right now: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Linear (https://linear.app/) Curtis Einsmann Tweet (https://twitter.com/curtiseinsmann/status/1521451508943843329) Louie Bacaj Tweet (https://twitter.com/LBacaj/status/1478241322637033474?s=20) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix them all today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. CHRIS: Good morning, and welcome to Tech Talk with Steph and Chris. Today at the top of the hour, it's tech traffic hits. STEPH: Ooh, tech traffic. [laughs] I like that statement. CHRIS: Yeah. The Git lanes are clogged up with...I don't know. I got nothing. STEPH: [laughs] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Actually, I have a specific new thing that I can share, which is, as of the past week, I would say, switched from Trello over to Linear for product management. It's been great. It was a super straightforward transfer. They actually had an importer. We lost some of the comment threads on the Trello cards. But that was easy enough to like each Linear ticket has a link back to Trello. So it's easy enough to keep the continuity. But yeah, we're in a whole new world, a system actually built for maintaining a product backlog, and, man, it shows. Trello was a bunch of lists and cards and stuff that you could link between, which was cool. But Linear is just much more purpose-built and already very, very nice. And we're very happy with the switch. STEPH: I feel like you came in real casual with that news, but that is big news, that you did a switch. [laughter] CHRIS: How are you going to bury the lead like that? You switched project management...[laughter] I actually didn't think it was...I'm excited about it but low-key excited, which is weird because I do like productivity and task management software. So you would think I would be really excited about this. But I've also tried enough of them historically to know that that's never going to be the thing that actually makes or breaks your team's productivity. It can make things worse, but it can't make you great. That's the thing that I believe. And so it's a wonderful piece of software. I'm very excited about it but -- STEPH: Ooh, I like that. It can make you worse, but it doesn't make you great. That's so true, yeah, where it causes pain. Well, and it does make sense. You've been complaining a bit about the whole login with Trello and how that's been frustrating. But I haven't even heard of Linear. That's just...that's, I mean, you're just doing what you do where you bring that new-new. I haven't heard of Linear before. CHRIS: I try to live on the cutting edge. Actually, I deeply try to not live on the cutting edge at this point in my life. That early adopter wave, no, no, no, that's not for me anymore. But I've known a few folks who've moved to Linear. And everyone that I've spoken to who has moved to it has been like, "Yeah, it's been great." I've not heard anything negative. And I've heard or experienced negative things about every other product management tool out there. And so, it seemed like an easy thing. And it was a low-cost enough switch in terms of opportunity costs or the like, it took the effort of someone on our team moving those cards over and setting up the new system and training, but it was relatively straightforward. And yeah, we're super happy with it. And it feels different now. I feel like I can see the work in a different way which is interesting. I think we had brought in a Chrome extension for Trello. I think it's like Hello Epics or something like that that allows...it abuses the card linking functionality in Trello and repurchases that feature as an epic management thing. But it's quarter-baked is how I would describe it, or it's clearly built on top of existing things that were not intended to be used exactly in that way. So it does a great job. Hello Epics does a great job of trying to make something like parent-child list management stuff happen in Trello. But it's always going feel like an afterthought, a secondary feature, something that's bolted on. Whereas in Linear, it's like, no, no, we absolutely have the idea of projects, of course, and you can see burndown charts and things. And the thing that I do want to be careful about is not leaning too much into management. Linear has the idea of cycles or sprints, as many other folks think of them, or iterations or whatever you want to call them. But we've largely not been working in that mode. We've just continued to work through the next up list; that's it. The next up list should be prioritized and well defined at the top and roughly in priority order. So just pick up the next card and work on it. And we just do that every single day. And now we're in a piece of software that has the idea of cycles, and I'm like, oh, this is vaguely interesting. Do we want to do that? Oh, but if you're going to do that, you probably do some estimation, right? And I was like, oh no, now we're into a place that's...okay, I have feelings. I got to decide how to approach that. And so, I am intrigued. And I wonder if we could just say like ten carts that's how many come into a cycle, and that's it. And we use the loosest heuristics possible to define how we structure a cycle so that we don't fall into the trap of, oh, what's our roadmap going to look like six months from now? JK, what's anything going to look like six months from now? That's not a knowable fact. STEPH: I was just thinking where you said that you're moving into sprints or cycles, and then there's that push, well, now you got to estimate. And I just thought, do you? Do you have to estimate? [laughs] CHRIS: We need a burndown chart through 2024, and it must be meticulously accurate down to the hour. STEPH: I think meticulously wrong is how that goes. [laughs] CHRIS: Which is the best kind of wrong. If you're going to be wrong, be meticulous about it. STEPH: Be thorough about it. [laughs] Yeah, the team that I'm on right now, we have our bi-weekly planning, and we go through the board, and we pull stuff in. But there's never a discussion about estimation. And I hadn't really appreciated that until just now. How we don't think about how long is this going to take? We just talked about, well, what's in-flight? And how much work do people still have going on? And then here's the list of things we can pull in. But there's always a list that you can go back to. Like, it's very...we pull in the minimum and knowing that if we run out of work, there's another place to go where there's stuff that's organized. And I just love that cadence, that idea of like, let's not try to make guesses about the future; let's just have it lined up and ready for us to go when we're ready to pull it in. Although I know, that's also coming from a very developer's perspective, and there are product managers who are trying to communicate as to when features are going to get out into the world. So I get that there's a balance, but I still have strong feelings and hesitations around estimating work. CHRIS: Well, I feel like there is a balance there. And so many things in history are like, well, this is an overcorrection against that, and that's an overcorrection against this. And the idea that we can estimate our work that far out into the future that's just obviously false to me based on every project I've ever worked on that has tried to do it. And it has always failed without question. But critically, there is the necessity to sync up work and like, oh, marketing needs to plan the launch of this feature, and it's a critical one. What's it going to look like? When's it going to be ready? You know, we're trying to go for an event, it's not just know...we developers never estimate anything past the immediate moment where like, that's not acceptable. We got to find a middle ground here. But where that middle ground is, is interesting. And so, just operating in the sort of we do work as it comes up is the easiest thing because no one's lying about anything at that point. But sometimes you got to make some guesses and make some estimations. And then it gets into the murky area of I believe with 75% confidence that in three weeks, we will have this feature ready. But to be clear, I said with 75% confidence that means one-quarter of the time; we will not be there at that date. What does that mean? What does that failure mode look like? Let's talk about that. And can you have honest, open, transparent, useful conversations there? That's the space that it becomes more subtle if you need to do that. STEPH: You're reminding me of a conversation that I had with someone where they shared with me some very aggressive team goals. And it was a very friendly conversation. And they're like, "How do you feel about aggressive goals?" And I was like, "Well, it depends. How do you feel about aggressive failure?" Because then once I know where you stand there, then we can talk about aggressive goals. Now, if we're being aggressive, but then we fail to achieve that, and it's one of those, okay, we didn't meet the goal that we'd expected, but everything is fine, and it's not a big deal, then I am okay. Sure, let's shoot for the stars. But if it's one of those, we are communicating these goals to the outside world, and it's going to become incredibly important that we meet these goals, and if we don't, then things are going to go on fire, people are going to be in trouble, and it's just going to be awful, then let's not set aggressive goals. Let's not box ourselves into a space where we are setting ourselves up to fail or feel pain in a meaningful way. I agree that estimations are important, especially in terms of you need to collaborate with other departments, and then also just to provide some sense of where the product is headed and when things may be released. I think estimations then just become problematic when they do become definite, and they're based on so many unknowns, and then when I don't know is not an answer. So if someone asked, "What's your estimate for this?" And the very honest real answer is I don't know, like, we haven't done this type of work before, or these are all the unknowns, and then someone's like, "Well, let's just put an estimation of like two weeks on it," and they just sort of try to force-fit it into being what they want, then that's where it starts to just feel incredibly problematic. CHRIS: Yeah, estimation is a very murky area that we could spend entire episodes talking about, and in fact, I think we have a handful of times. So with that, Linear has been great. We're going to see just how much or how little estimation we actually want to do. But it's been a very nice addition to the toolset. And I'll let you know as we deepen our usage of it what the experience is like, but that's the main thing that's new in my world. What's new in your world? STEPH: Well, before we bounce over to my world, you said something that has intrigued me that has also made me start reflecting on some of the ways that I like to work. And you'd mentioned that you have this prioritized backlog that people are pulling tickets from. And I don't know exactly if there's a planning session or how that looks, but I have recognized that when I am working with a team, and we don't have any planning session, if everybody is just pulling from this backlog, that's being prioritized by someone on the team, that I find that a bit overwhelming. Because the types of work being done can vary so drastically that I find I'm less able to help my colleagues or my teammates because I don't have the context for what they're working on. It surprises me. I'm like, oh, I didn't even know we're working on that feature, or I don't have the context for what's the problem that we're trying to solve here. And it makes it just a lot harder to review and then have conversations with them. And I get overwhelmed in that environment. And I've recognized that about myself based on previous projects that were more similar to that versus if I'm on a project where the team does get together every so often, even if it's high level to be like, hey, here's the theme of the tickets that we're working on, or here's just some of the stuff, then I feel much more prepared for the work that is coming in and to be able to context switch and review. And yeah, so I've kind of learned that about myself. I'm curious, are you similar, or how does that work for you? CHRIS: I'm definitely similar. And I think probably the team is closer to what you're describing. So we do have a planning session every week, just a quick 30-minute scan through the backlog, look at the things that are coming up and also the larger themes. Previously, Epics and Trello now projects and Linear. But talking about what are the bigger pieces of work that we're moving on, and then what are the individual tickets associated with that that we'll be expecting to work on in the next week? And just making sure that everyone has broad clarity around what that feature set is. Also, we're a very small team at this point. Still, we're four people total, but one of the developers is on a break for a couple of weeks this summer. And so there are really only three of us that are driving on the code. And so, with three of us working on the projects, we try very intentionally to have significant overlap between the various...like, we don't want any one person to own any portion of things at this point. And so we're doing a good amount of pairing to cross-pollinate and make sure everyone's...not everyone's aware of everything, but at least one other person is sufficiently aware of everything between the three of us. And I think that's been working well. I don't think we have any major gaps, save for the way that we're doing our mobile architecture that's largely managed by one of the developers on the team and a contractor that we're working with to help do a lot of the implementation. That's a known we chose to silo that thing. We've accepted the cost of that for now. And architecturally, the rest of us are aware of it, but we're not like in the Swift code writing anything because I don't know how to write Swift at this point. I'd love to learn it. I hear good things about the language. [12:26] So yeah, I think conceptually very similar to what you're describing of still want to have people be able to review. Like, I don't want to put up a PR and people be like, I don't know, that looks like code, I guess. I'm not sure what it does. Like, I want it to be very...I want us all to be roughly on the same page, and thus far, we are. As the team grows, that will become trickier to maintain because there are just inherently probably more things that are moving, more different feature areas and surface area that we're tackling in any given week, or there are different ways to approach that. I know you've talked about having a limited number of themes for a given cycle, so that's an idea that can pop up. But that's something that we'll figure out as we get further. I think I'm happy with where we're at right now, so yeah, that's the story there. STEPH: Okay, cool. Yeah, all of that resonates with me, and thinking about it a little more deeply in this moment, I'm realizing I think something you said helped me put this together where when I'm reviewing someone's change, I'm not necessarily just looking to see does your code work? I'm going to trust you that your code works. I may have thoughts about design and other things, but I really want to understand more what's the change to the product that we're making? What's the goal that we're looking to achieve? How are we measuring this? And so if I don't have that context, that's what contributes to that feeling of like, hard context switching of not just context switching, but now I have to level myself up to then understand the problem that's being solved by this. Versus had I known some of the themes going into that particular cycle or sprint, I would have felt far more prepared for that review session versus having to then dig through all the data and/or tickets or talk to someone. Well, switching back to what's going on in my world, I have a particular tweet that I want to share, and it's one that Joël Quenneville brought to my attention. And it just resonates so much with all the type of work that I'm doing right now. So I'm going to read the tweet, and then we'll link to it in the show notes as well. But it's from Curtis Einsmann, and Curtis wrote: "In software engineering, rabbit holes are inevitable. You will research libraries and not use them. You'll write code just to delete it. This isn't a waste; sometimes, you need to go down a few wrong paths to get to the right one." And that describes all the work that I'm doing right now. It's a lot of exploratory, a lot of data-driven work, and finding ways that we can reduce the time that it takes to run RSpec on CI. And it also ties in nicely to one of the things that I think we talked about last week, where we discovered that a number of files have a high runtime variance. And I've really dug into the data there to understand, okay, is it always specific files that have these high runtime variants? Are there any obvious contributions to what's causing this? Are we making real network calls that then could sometimes take a long time to return? And the result is there's nothing obvious. They're giant files. The number of SQL commands that are being run for each file varies drastically. They're all high, but it's still very different. There's no single fact about these files that has really been like, yes, this is what's causing these files to have such a runtime variance. And so while I've been in the data, I'm documenting it, and I'm making a list and putting it all together in a ticket so at least it's there to look at later. But I'm going to move on. It's one of those I would love to know what's causing this. I would love to address it because it would put us in an ideal state for how we're distributing tests, which would have a significant impact on our runtime. But it also feels a little bit like chasing my tail because I'm worried, like with some of the other experiments that we've done in the past where we've addressed tentpoles, that as soon as you address the issue for one or two files, then other files start having the same problem. And you're just going to continue to chase and chase, and I don't want to be in that. So upfront, this was one of those; hey, let's look at the data. If there's something obvious, let's address it; if not, move on. So I'm at that point today where I'm wrapping up all of that data, and then I'm going to move on, move on to the next thing. CHRIS: There's deep truth in that tweet that you shared at the start of this segment. The idea like if we knew the work that we had to do at the front, yeah, we would just do that, but often, we don't. And so, being able to not treat it as a failure when something doesn't work out is, I think, so critical. I think to expand on the idea just a tiny bit, the idea of the scientific method, failure is totally an option and is part of science. I remember watching MythBusters, and Adam Savage is just kind of like, "Failure is always an option," and highlighting that as part of it. Like, it's an outcome. You've learned something. You have a new data point. You can take that and then carry it forward with you. But it's rough in the moment. And so, I do think that this is a worthwhile thing to meditate on. And it's something that I've had to revisit a handful of times in my career of just like, man, I feel like I've just been spinning my tires all week. I'm like, we know what we want to get done, but just each approach I take isn't working for one reason or another. And then, finally, you get to the end. And then you've got this paragraph-long summary of all the things that didn't work in your PR and one-line change sort of thing. And those are painful, but they're part of the game. Like, that is unavoidable. I have not found a way to just know how to do the work upfront always. I would love that. I would sign up for whatever seminar was selling that. I wouldn't. I would know that that seminar is a lie, actually. But broadly, I'm intrigued by the idea if someone were selling that, I'd be like, well, I mean, pitch me on it. Tell me why I should believe you; I don't, just to be clear. But yeah. STEPH: This project has really helped me embrace always setting a goal or a question upfront about what I'm wanting to achieve or what I'm looking to answer because a number of times while Joël and I have been spelunking through data...And then so originally, with the saga, we started out with why doesn't our math match reality? We understand that if these tests are distributed perfectly across the CPUs, then that should cut the runtime in half. But yet, we weren't seeing that even though we had addressed the tentpoles. So we dug into understanding why. And the answer is because they're not perfectly distributed, and it's because of the runtime variance. And that was a critical moment to look back and say, "Did we achieve the goal?" Yes, we identified the problem. But once you see a problem, it's just so easy to dig in and keep going. It's like, well, now I want to know what's causing these files to have a runtime variance. But it's one of those we achieved our goal. We acknowledged upfront that we wanted to at least understand why. Let's make a second decision, do we keep going? And I'm at that point where, frankly, I probably dug in a little more than I should because I'm stubborn. But I'm recognizing that now's the time to back away and then go back and move on to the next high-priority item, which is converting for funsies; I'll share. The next thing is converting Test::Unit test over to RSpec because we have, I think, around 25 tests that are written in Test::Unit. And we want to move them over to RSpec because that particular just step in the build process takes a good three to four minutes. And part of that is just booting up Rails and then running the tests very fast. And we're underutilizing the machine that's running them because it's only 25 tests, but there are 86 CPUs to run it. So we'd really like to combine those 25 tests with the rest of the RSpec suite and drop that step. So then that should add minimal time to the overall build but then should take us down at least a couple of minutes. And then also makes it easier to manage and help folks so that way, there's one consistent testing framework that's in use versus having to manage some of these older tests. CHRIS: It's funny; I think it was just two episodes back where we talked about why RSpec, and I think both of us were just like, well yeah. But I mean, if there are tests and another, like, it's fine, you just leave them with the exception that if there's like 2% of our tests are in Test::Unit, and everything else is in RSpec, yeah, maybe that that conversion efforts seem totally worth it. But again, I think as you're describing that, what I'm hearing is just like the scientific method, just being somewhat structured in the approach to what's the hypothesis? And what's the procedure we're going to use to determine if that hypothesis is true or false? And then what do we do? And then what are the results? And then you just do that on loop. But being not just sort of exploring. Sometimes you have to be on exploratory mode. But I definitely find that that tiny bit of rigor of just like, wait, okay, before I actually do anything, what do I think is going on here? What's my guess? And then, okay, if that guess were true, what would I be able to observe in the world? Okay, here we go. And just that tiny bit of structure is so...it sometimes feels highly formal to go into that mode and be like, no, no, no, let me take a step back. Let me write down my thoughts. I'm going to have a little checklist and do the thing. But I've never regretted doing it. I will say that. I have deeply regretted not doing it. I feel like I should make a list of things that fit that structure. I've never regretted committing in Git ever. That's been great. I've always been able to unwind it, but I've never been able to not unwind it or the opposite. I've regretted not committing. I have not regretted committing. I have regretted not writing out my hypothesis or approach. I have not regretted doing it. And so, yeah, this feels like it falls firmly in that category of like, it's worth just a tiny bit of structure. There's a reason it is the scientific method. STEPH: Yeah, I agree. I've not regretted documenting upfront what it is I look to achieve and how I think I'm going to answer the question. That has been immensely helpful. Because then I also forget, like, two weeks ago, I'll be like, wasn't there a question around why this was happening, and I need to understand? And all of that was so context-heavy that as soon as I'm out of the thick of it, I completely forget it. So if I care about it deeply or if I want to be able to revisit it, then I need to document it for myself. It's given me a lot of empathy for people who do more scientific research around, oh my gosh, like, you have to document everything you do and then still be able to prove it five years from now or however long. I'm just throwing out numbers. And it needs to be organized enough that someone, if they do question your research that, then you have it there. My research documents would not withstand scrutiny at this point because they are still just more personal notes. But yes, it's given me a lot of empathy and respect for people who do run very serious research, experiments, and trials, and then have to be able to prove it to the world. Pivoting just a bit, there's a particular topic that resonated with both you and I; in fact, it's a particular tweet. And, Louie, I do apologize if I mispronounce your last name, but Louie Bacaj. And we'll include a link in the show notes to the tweet, but Louis shared, "I managed multiple engineering teams before quitting tech. Now that I quit, I can speak freely. Here are 12 things your manager may not be telling you, but I know for a fact will help you." So there are a number of interesting discussions and comments that are in this thread. The one thing in particular that really caught my attention is number 10, and it's "Advocate for junior developers." So they said that their friend reminded them that just because you don't have 10-plus years of experience does not mean that they won't be good. Without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. Help others grow; you'll grow too. And that's the part that I love so much is that without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow because that was very thought-provoking for me. It's something that I find that I agree with deeply, but I hadn't really considered why I agree with that so much. So I'm excited to dive into that topic with you. And then, as a second topic to go along with that is, can juniors start with a remote team? I think that's one of the other questions when you and I were chatting about this. And I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts. CHRIS: A bunch of stuff there. Starting with the tweet, I love elements of this. Some of it feels like it's intentionally somewhat provocative. So like, without junior engineers on the team, no one will grow. That feels maybe a little bit past the bar because I think we can technically grow, and we can build things and whatnot. But I think what feels deeply true to me is truly help others grow; you'll grow too. The act of mentoring, of guiding, of training, of helping someone on their journey will inherently help you grow and, I think, change the way that you think about the work. I think the beginner mind, the earlier in the career folks coming into a codebase, they will see things fundamentally differently in a really useful way. It's possible that along your career, you've just internalized things. You've been like, yeah, no, that was weird. But then I smashed my head against it for a while, and now I understand this thing. And it just makes sense to me. But it's like, that thing actually doesn't make sense. You have warped your mind to match the thing, not, quote, unquote, "come to understand it." This is sounding too judgmental to people who've been in the industry for a while, but I found this of myself. Or I can just take for granted things that took a long time to adapt my head to, and if anything, maybe I should have pushed back a little more. And so, I find that junior engineers can be a really fantastic lens for the complexity of a project. Like, the world is truly a complex place, and that's just true. But our job as software engineers is to tame that complexity and manage it. And so, I love the mindset that can come or the conversations that can come out of that. And it's much like test-driven development is a pressure on the complexity of your code, having junior engineers join the team and needing to explain how all of the different features work, and what the overall architecture is, and the message passing under this and that, it's a really useful conversation to have. And so that "Help others grow; you'll grow too" feels deeply, deeply true to me. STEPH: Yeah, I couldn't agree more in regards to how juniors really help our team and especially, as you mentioned, with complexity and ¬having those conversations. Some of the other things that have come to mind for me as well around the importance of having junior developers on your team...and maybe it's not specifically they're junior developers but that you just have a variety of experience on your team. It's going to help you lean into a culture of learning because you have people that are at different stages of their career. And so you want an environment where people can learn together, that they can fail together, and they can be public about it. And having people that are at different stages of their career will lead, well, at least ideally, it'll lead to more pair programming. It's going to lead to more productive code reviews because then people can ask more questions around why did you choose this, or why are you doing that? Versus if everybody is at the same level, then they may just intuitively have reasons that they think someone did something. But it takes someone that's a bit new to say, "Hey, why did you choose this?" or to bring up some other ideas or ways that they could pursue it. They may bring in new ideas for, like, why has the team always done something this way? Let's think about new ways that we could do this. Or maybe this is really unfriendly, the way that we're doing this, not just for junior people but for people that are new to the team. And then there's typically less knowledge siloing because then you're going to want to pair the newer folks with the more experienced folks. So that way, you don't have this more senior developer who's then off in a corner working by themselves. And it's going to improve your communication skills. There's just...I realized I'm just rambling because I feel like there are so many benefits that go along with having a variety of people on your team, especially in terms of experience. And that just leads to such a better learning environment and, ultimately, better software and better products. And yet, I find that so many companies won't embrace people that are newer to software. They always want the senior developers. They want the 10x-er or whatever those are. They want the people that have many, many years of experience. And there's so much value that comes from mentoring the next group of developers. And it's incredibly frustrating to me that one, companies often aren't open to it. But honestly, more than that, as long as you're upfront and honest about like, hey, this is the team that we need right now to build what we're looking to build, I can get past that; I can understand that. But please don't then mislead people and say that you're a junior-friendly team, and then not be prepared. I feel like some teams will go so far as to say, "Yes, we are junior-friendly," and they may even tweak their interview process to where it is a bit more junior-friendly. But then, by the time that person joins the team, they're really not prepared. They don't have an onboarding plan. They don't have a mentorship plan. And then they fail that person because that person has worked hard to get there. And they've worked hard to bring that person onto the team, but then they don't have a plan from there. And I've seen it too many times. And it just frustrates me so much because it puts that junior person in such a vulnerable state where they really have to be an incredible self-advocate to then overcome those hurdles from a lack of preparation on that company's part. Okay, I think that's my event. I'm sure I could vent about this a lot more, but I will cut it off there. That's the heart of it. CHRIS: I do think, like, with anything else, it's something that we have to be intentional about. And so what you're saying of like, yeah, we're a junior-friendly company, but then you're just hiring folks, trying to find folks that may work at a slightly lower pay grade, and that's what that means to you. So like, no, no, that's not what this is. This needs to be something different. We need to have a structure and an organization that can support folks at different points in their career. But it's interesting to me to think about the sort of why of it. And the earlier part of this conversation, we talked about some of the benefits that can come organizationally from it, and I do sincerely believe in that. But I also believe that it is fundamentally one of the best ways to find really talented people early on in their career and be in a position to hire them where maybe later on in their career, that just wouldn't happen naturally. And I've seen this play out in a number of organizations. I went to Northeastern University for my college, and Northeastern is famous for the co-op program. Northeastern sounds really fancy. Now I learned that they have like a 7% acceptance rate for college applications right now, which is wildly low. When I went to Northeastern, it was not so fancy. So just in case anyone's hearing that and they're like, "Oh, Northeastern, wow." I'm not that fancy. [laughs] But they did have the co-op then, and they still have it now. And the co-op really is a differentiating thing. You do three six-month rotations. And it is this fundamental differentiator in terms of when you're graduating. Particularly, I was in mechanical engineering. I came out, and I actually knew what that meant in the world. And I'd used Outlook, and I knew what a water cooler was and how to talk near one because that's a critical thing to learn in the world. And really transformative experience for me. But also, a thing that I observed was many of my friends ended up working at companies that they had co-opted for. I'm one of those people. I would say more than 50% of my friends ended up with a position at a company that they had done a co-op rotation with. And it really worked out fantastically. That organization and the individual got to try things out, experience. And then, I ended up staying at that company for a number of years, and it was a wonderful experience. But I don't know that I would have ended up there otherwise. That's not necessarily the way that would have played out. And similarly like, thoughtbot has the apprenticeship. And I have seen so many wonderful developers start at that very early point in their career. And there was this wonderful structure around them joining the thoughtbot team, intentional, structured, supported. And then those folks went on to be some of the most talented developers that I've ever worked with at a wonderfully talented organization. And so the story of like, you should do this, organizations. This is a thing that you should invest in for yourself, not just for the individual, like, for both. Everybody wins in this case, in my mind. I will say, though, in terms of transparency, I currently manage a team of three developers. And we hired very intentionally for senior folks this early on in where we're at. And that was an intentional choice because I do believe that if you're going to be hiring more junior developers, that needs to be something that you do very intentionally, that you have a support structure in place, that you're able to invest the time in where they're at and make sure we have sort of... I think a larger team makes more sense to bring juniors into broadly. That's the thing that I'm saying out loud that I'm like, I should push on that a little bit. Is that true? Do I really believe that? But I think so, my actions obviously point to it. But it is an interesting trade-off space of how do you think about that? My hope is that as we grow as an organization, that we would then very intentionally start hiring folks in a more junior, mid-level to junior and be very intentional about how we support them, bring them into the organization, et cetera. I do believe it is a win-win situation for everyone when done with intention and with focus. STEPH: That's such an interesting bit that you just said because I very much appreciate when companies recognize do we have the bandwidth to support someone that's more junior? Because at thoughtbot, we go through periods where we don't have our apprenticeship that's open because we recognize we're not in a place that we can support someone. And we don't want to bring someone in unless we can help them be successful. I very much admire that and appreciate that about companies when they can perform that self-assessment. I am so intrigued. You'd mentioned being a smaller team. So you more intentionally hire senior developers. And I think that also makes sense because then you need to build up who's going to be in that mentorship pool? Because then people could leave, people could take vacations, and so then you need to have that support system in place. But yeah, I don't know what that then perfect balance is. It's like, okay, so then as soon as you have like five people available to mentor or interested in mentorship, it's like, then do you start bringing in the conversation of like, let's bring in someone that we can help build up and help them be successful and join our team? And I don't know what that magical number is. I do think it's important for teams to reflect to say, "Can we take on someone that's junior?" All the benefits of having someone that's junior. And then just being very honest and then having a plan for once that junior person does arrive. What does their career path look like while they've joined that team, and who's going to be that person that's going to help them level up? So not only make that choice upfront of yes, we are bringing someone on but let's also think about like the first six months of their work here at the company and what that's going to look like. It feels like an important step that a lot of companies fail to do. And I think that's why there are so many articles that then are like, hey, if you're a junior dev, here's all the things that you should do to be the best junior dev. That's fabulous. And we're constantly shoring up junior devs to be like, hey, here's all the things that you need to be great at. But we don't have as many conversations around; hey, here's all the things that your manager or the rest of your team should be great at to then support you equally as you are also doing your best to meet them. Like, they need to meet you halfway. And I'm not completely unsympathetic to the plight; I understand. It's often where I've seen with teams the more senior developers that have very strong mentorship communication skills are then also the teammates that get pulled into all the meetings and all the different projects, so then they are less available to be that mentor. And then that's how this often fails. So I don't think anybody is going into this intentionally, but yet, it's what happens for when someone is new and joining a team, and it hasn't been determined the next six months what that person's onboarding and career path looks like. Circling back just a bit, there's the question around, can juniors start with a remote team? I can go first. And I'm going to say unequivocally yes. There's no reason a junior can't start with a remote team. Because all the things that I feel strongly about come down to how is your team going to plan for this person? And how are they going to support this person? And all the benefits that you get from being in an office with a team, I think those do exist. And frankly, for someone like myself, it can be easier to establish a bond with someone that you get to see each day, get to see in person. You can walk up to their desk and can say, "Hey, I've got a question for you." But I think all those benefits just need to be transferred into a remote-friendly way. So I think it does ratchet up how intentional you have to be with your team and then onboarding a junior developer. But I absolutely think it's doable, and we should do it. CHRIS: You went with unequivocally yes as your answer. I'm going to go with a qualified maybe as my answer. I want this to be true, and I think it can be true. But I think it takes all the more intentionality than even what we've been describing. To shift the question around a little bit, what does remote work mean? It doesn't just mean we're doing the work, but we're separate. I think remote work inherently is at its best when we also are largely async first. And so that means more structured writing. The nature of the conversation tends to be more well-formed in each interaction. So it's like I read a big document, and then I pass it over to you. And at your leisure, you respond to it with a bunch of notes, and then it comes back to me. And I think that mode of interaction, while absolutely wonderful and something that I love, I think it fits really well when you're a little bit further on in your career when you understand things a little bit better. And I think the dance of conversation is more useful earlier on and so forth. And so, for someone who's newer to a team, I think having the ability to ask a quick question over and over is really useful to someone who's early on in their career. And remote, again, I think it's at its best when it's async. And those two are sort of at odds. And so it's that mild tension that gives me pause of like, something that I think that makes remote work great I do think is at least a hurdle that you would have to get over in supporting someone who's a little bit newer. Because I want to be deeply present for someone who's newer to their journey so that they can ask a lot of questions so that I am available to be interrupted regularly. I loved at thoughtbot sitting next to someone and being their mentor and being like, yeah, anytime you want, just tap on my desk. If I got my headphones on, that doesn't mean I'm ignoring you; it means I just need to make the sounds go away for a minute because that's the only way my brain will work. But feel free to just tap on my desk or whatever and grab my attention for a moment. And I'm available for that. That's an intentional choice. That's breaking up my continuity of the day, but we're choosing that for a reason. I think that's just a little harder to do in a remote context and all the more so if we're saying, hey, we're going to try this async thing where we write structured documents, and we communicate in these larger, more well-formed, communicates back and forth. But I do believe it can be done. I think it should be done. I just think it's all the harder for all of those reasons. STEPH: I agree that definitely makes it harder. But I'm going to push a little bit and say that when you mentioned being deeply present, I think we can be deeply present with someone and be remote. We can reduce the async requirements. So if you are someone that is more senior or more accustomed to the team, you can fall back to more of those async ways to communicate. But if someone is new, and needs more mentorship, then let's just set up time where we're going to literally hang out for a couple of hours each day or whatever pairing environment works best for them because pairing can also be exhausting. But hey, we're going to have a check-in each day; maybe we close out each day and touchpoint. And feel free to still message me and interrupt me. Like, you're going to just heighten your availability, even though it is remote. And be aware, like, hey, this person could message me at more times, and I'm okay with that. I have opted into this form of communication. So I think we just take that mindset of, hey, there's this person next to me, and I'm their mentor to like, hey, they're not next to me, but I'm still their mentor, and I'm still here for them. So I agree that it's harder. I think it falls on us and the team and the mentors to change ourselves versus saying to juniors, "Hey, sorry, it's remote. That's not going to work for you." It totally works for them. It's us, the mentors, that need to figure out how to make it work. I will say being on that mentor side that then not being able to see someone so if they are next to me, I can pick up on body language and facial expressions, and I can tell when somebody's stuck. And I can see that they're frustrated, or I can see that now's a good time for me to just be like, "Hey, how's it going? What are you working on? Or do you need help with something?" And I don't have that insight when I'm away. So there are real challenges like that that I don't know how to address. I have gone the obnoxious route [laughs] where I just message people, and I'm like, "Hey, how's it going? How's it going? How's it going?" And I try not to do that too much. But I haven't found a better way to manage that other than to constantly check in because I do have less feedback from that person that I'm working with unless they are just incredibly open about sharing when they're stuck. But typically, when you're newer to a team or newer to a career, you're going to be less willing to share when you're stuck. But yeah, there are some real challenges, but I still think it's something for us to figure out. Because otherwise, if we cut off access for remote teams to junior folks, I mean, that's where we're headed. There are so many companies and jobs that are headed remote that not being junior friendly and being remote in my mind is just not an option. It's something that we need to figure out. And it's hard, but we need to figure it out. CHRIS: Yeah, 100% on we need to figure that out and that that's on us as the people managing and structuring and bringing folks into teams. I think my stance would be like, let's just be clear that this is hard. It takes effort to make sure that we've provided a structure in which someone newer to a team can be successful. It takes all the more effort to do so in a remote context, I think. And it's that recognition that I think is critical. Because if we go into this with the wrong mindset, it's like, oh yeah, it's great. We got this new person on the team. And yeah, they should be ready to go in like two weeks, right? It's like, no, no, this is a different thing. We need to be very clear about it. This is going to require that we have someone who is able to work with them and support them in this. And that means that that person's output will likely be a little bit reduced for the period of time that we're talking about. But we're playing a long game here. Let's make sure we're clear on that. This is intentional. And let's be clear, the world of hiring and software right now it's not like super easy. There aren't way more software developers than there are jobs; at least, that's been my experience. So this is something absolutely worth investing in for just core business reasons and also good for people. So hey, it's a win-win. Let's do it. Let's figure it out. But also, let's be clear that it's going to be a little tricky along the way. So, you know, let's be intentional about that. But yeah, obviously do it, got to do it. STEPH: Wait, so I feel like we might have circled back to unequivocally yes. [laughs] Have we gotten there, or are you still on the fence? CHRIS: I was unequivocally yes from the beginning, but I couched it in, but...yeah, I said other things. You're right. I have now come around; let's say to unequivocally yes. STEPH: [laughs] Cool. I don't want to feel like I'm forcing you to agree with me. [laughs] But I mean, we just so rarely disagree. So we've either got to identify this as something that we disagree on, which would be one of those rare occasions like beer and Pop-Tarts. CHRIS: A watershed moment. Beer and Pop-Tarts. STEPH: Yeah, those are the only two so far. [laughter] CHRIS: Not together also. I just want to go on record beer and Pop-Tarts; I don't think would be...anyway. STEPH: Ooh, I don't know. It could work. It could work. CHRIS: Well, there's another thing we disagree on. STEPH: I would not turn it down. If I was eating a Pop-Tart, and you're like, "Hey, you want a beer?" I'd be like, "Sure," vice versa. I'm drinking a beer. "Hey, you want a Pop-Tart?" "Totally." CHRIS: Okay. Well yeah, if I'm making bad decisions, I'm obviously going to chain them together, but that doesn't mean that they're a good decision. It's just a chain of bad decisions. STEPH: I feel like one true thing I know about you is that when you make a decision, you're going to lean into it. So like, this is why you are all about if you're going to have a Pop-Tart, you're going to have the highest sugary junk content Pop-Tart possible. So it makes sense to me. CHRIS: It's the Mountain Dew theorem, yeah. STEPH: I didn't know this had a theorem. The Mountain Dew theorem? CHRIS: No, that's just my name. Well, yeah, if I'm going to drink soda, I'm going to drink Mountain Dew, the nonsense nuclear option of soda. So yeah, I guess you're describing me, although as you say it back to me, I suddenly feel very, like, oh God, is this who I am as a person? [laughs] And I'm not going to say you're wrong. I'm just going to spend a little while thinking about some stuff. STEPH: I mean, you embrace it. I think that's lovely. You know what you want. It's like, all right, let's do this. Let's go all in. CHRIS: Thank you for finding a wonderfully positive way to frame it here at the end. But I think on that note, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Steph and Chris recap their favorite things of 2019 and 2020 and share their 2021 list. Happy Holidays, y'all! Steph: * Feature flags and calm deploys * Creating observable systems * Debugging * Working in seasons * Don't forget the fun “The longer I'm in the software game, the more I want things to be calm” - Steph Chris: * Pushing logic back to the server * Svelte (https://svelte.dev/) * Remote work (but maybe hybrid!) * Vim * Joining a startup as CTO This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Listen to episodes from 2020 and 2019

As they do each week they go through the week in the NFL plus some radio calls! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, Steph and Chris talk about things they've changed their minds about over the course of their careers as software developers. Steph talks about as it turns out, arm chair rests are good, feature flags and comments are also good, she's changed her mind about how teams structure the work that each person is doing at once, and believes strongly in representation in the field. Chris is not a fan up upgrading his operating system and when he first started out, he gravitated towards learning dynamic languages, and since then, much prefers functional languages, static typing or more broadly, static analysis. He also no longer believes in the 10x engineer, and also very much believes that URLs matter on the internet. So basically, don't call them single-page applications; call them client-side applications instead! Arq (https://www.arqbackup.com/) Karabiner-Elements (https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/) Kent C. Dodd's Epic React Course (https://epicreact.dev/) The Art of Code Comments by Sarah Drasner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhF7OmuIILc) Gary Bernhardt: Functional Core, Imperative Shell (https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/screencasts/catalog/functional-core-imperative-shell) Transcript: CHRIS: I still have dreams that I missed an entire semester of math class, and now it's time for the final. I don't know that I'm ever going to grow out of that. STEPH: That's wild. CHRIS: You don't experience that? It's a mixture of I'm in elementary school, but it's a college final. Like, the physical school that I'm in is my elementary school, but it's a calculus college course that I missed. And now it's time for the final, and I won't graduate college as a result. But it's also high school at the same time. Just every part of education sort of melded together into this nightmare scenario. Do you not experience that? I thought this was normal. STEPH: [chuckles] Not in a very long time, not since I was in college. But I'm imagining this very cute, young Chris showing up with a backpack to the calculus final like, "Oh no." [laughs] CHRIS: Yeah, pretty much, yeah. I really thought I would grow out of it at some point. But it shows...I think it manifests when I have anxiety about something else in the world, and then I have a math terror dream. STEPH: That's your stress sign. That's your terror dream. CHRIS: Apparently. STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. Hey, Chris, how's your week going? CHRIS: Oh, it's going fine. Yeah, I'll go with fine. I had to upgrade my operating system. Enough things had stopped working or seemed to be pestering me about it regularly, which normally I'm going to ignore that for as long as I can. That's sort of where I'm at in the world these days. Like, I don't want to upgrade because I don't know what's going to break and whatnot, but then things had broken already. Text messages were no longer showing up on my computer. And it turns out that the primary way that I interact with text messages is by replying to them through my computer. I don't want to type on my phone, that's not a thing. I'm already grumpy enough about text messages, to begin with, that I will regularly respond switching to email, and then I'll go off from there. But yeah, they stopped working, it stopped connecting. And then I got this really weird message from Apple when I tried to sign in. And I was like, I feel like I should at least try to upgrade to the new operating system, which I think has been out for a long time, and I've just been ignoring it. But then I had the added problem of I didn't have enough space on my computer to install it, which I tried once before. So I downloaded the installer, but the installer downloader doesn't check whether or not you have enough space to do the install. So it's just like, hey, so you know how you didn't have enough space? Well, we took up the remainder of it, and now you can't do anything about it. And the installer is hidden somewhere in the computer. So at one point, it just went away, and then suddenly had a lot of space on my computer. But finally, I decided to bite the bullet. I found a bunch of caches on my computer. So there was a cache for my backup utility, which is called Arq, A-R-Q, which was a lot of space. It was like 20 gigs or something like that. So it was like, sorry, you have no more cache. I'm pretty sure my computer's going to light on fire the next time it tries to do a backup because it has no cache to rely on, and it's got to try a lot harder, pull a lot more data down. I don't know what it does, but whatever. It's going to do that. And then, I found the more general application caches on the computer. Spotify had like six gigs of cache. Well, what are you doing? Aren't you streaming from the internet? Stop it. That's not okay. That is not acceptable. Yarn had three gigs. I was like, what is everybody doing? And I busted all of these. I threw away everything, and my computer seems to be doing fine after the fact. So, were the caches even doing anything? I ask. Anyway, so I upgraded, and then some stuff didn't work. And so then I had to find the versions to make stuff work. The particular one that stood out was Karabiner-Elements, which I used to make my mechanical keyboard do the right things for the function keys. That stopped working. And I tried to upgrade it to the newer version because I figured okay; they probably hopefully released a new version, but it failed in the upgrade process. And it turns out the secret was I had to upgrade to an intermediate version. I was on 12.3, and I needed to go to 13.4. But in between, I had to go to 12.10. And if I went to 12.10, then the upgrade to 13...everything about it was everything that I hate about upgrading software. It's like, I just know it's working right now, and I feel like if I even just look at it wrong, this whole tower of software is going to fall over. The worst thing, the thing that I have not been able to fix, is now I use iTerm as my terminal, my terminal emulator as it were. And I typically run with transparency mode on which some people look at and say, "Wow, that's a choice." And I say, "I kind of like it. I don't know; it makes me feel like a hacker or something." I don't know, whatever. [chuckles] Let me live my life. But for some reason, switching to Big Sur, the version of OS X that I'm on now, iTerm doesn't have transparency anymore. And I just haven't been bothered to fix it yet. But, man, I got rambly. I clearly have some feelings about upgrading software. STEPH: You have so many feelings. The fact that you kept going...People can't see me, but I'm just dying because of that whole story. [laughs] CHRIS: I kind of felt like I had to get through it. I had to exorcise the demons, tell my tale, and then be done with it, which I think I'm at now. STEPH: When I start laughing that hard, [laughs] I try to hide from the camera view because I want you to keep going for people to listen. CHRIS: But what's fun is you bob and weave. You'll hide for a minute, and then you'll come back and be like, okay, I'm composed, never mind. And then you'll just fade off to the side again. So yeah, but I powered through. [laughs] STEPH: Oh, all right, there is so much there. [laughs] Upgrading is the worst. I agree with that. That was actually something I ran into earlier this week. Well, it was a mix of where upgrading presented a problem and then upgrading something else resolved that problem. And so that was an adventure where I shared a tweet. I can link to it in the show notes as well. But Ruby was just taking up 100%, a full core, just all the time, and I couldn't figure out why. I wasn't doing anything with Ruby. We weren't talking at the moment, but it was just turning up one of those 100% CPU or higher. And so then I did some searching. And I did find the resolution, which was to upgrade the Listen gem because there was something in the Listen gem that didn't fully support Big Sur. Is that the name of the thing that I am on? CHRIS: That's the new one, yeah. I know because I've just upgraded to it. I have thoughts on the matter. [chuckles] STEPH: Cool. [chuckles] Yeah, when I upgraded to Big Sur. But then someone had kindly marched in to fix it, then upgrading resolved that problem. And Ruby is back to a peaceful level as to the amount of process, the amount of CPU that it should be taking up. Transparency mode, I'm thumbs up on it. I like how you called that out, how that's a choice. And I'm with you on that choice, although I didn't realize that's broken. I guess I just hadn't...I guess I don't care deeply enough that I've tried to restore my transparency, but you're telling me to hold on. CHRIS: We're going to get realer now in this moment. So I have a very old version of iTerm because it has a different way of going fullscreen than the default operating system level fullscreen. I really hate that it animates to fullscreen, and it doesn't quite fill the full screen. Like, it still had a border around it or something. So I have a very old version of iTerm that I've been running with forever, and I refuse to upgrade in any way as a result of I want to cling to this old version of things working. But as a result, I think I finally hit the end of the road on that. This is like years running now too. I remember I kept it in a Dropbox folder so that each time I upgrade or get a new computer, I'm like, okay, good. I still have my old special version [chuckles] of iTerm. But I think that time is over and I got to find...I feel like there are new terminal emulators out there. It's like Alacritty and other stuff that people talk about. So maybe it's time for me to try and find something new as long as I can get that transparency because I want to feel like an uber lead hacksaw. STEPH: You have such a brand of new-new that I'm now discovering that you are also a software hoarder, so you have both in your personality. [chuckles] CHRIS: There was a period early on in my software career that was like, oh, I got to find all this stuff. I got to figure things out and configure it. And then I was like, wow, that's taking up a lot of my time, I should stop it. And I think since then, I haven't upgraded anything. If you go look at my .files, I don't know the last time I pushed to them, but it's been a while. I'm still doing things, of course, but not as much. I know the cost of it, and I know the cost of maintenance. And really, this is an allegory for software overall. This isn't just about our local development environments, but entropy exists in software. Software does not exist at rest, and it will decay over time. And so the idea of we've worked with so many clients where they're like, yeah, we're on Ruby 1.8, and it's Rails 0.9. So okay, all right, well, we're going to have to deal with that, it turns out. We can't just keep ignoring that. So really, it's the same story played out but in my local hoarder cavern. STEPH: There was a part of the saga, the story that you shared with the installer and that you don't have enough space, and it took up the rest of the space, and you can't do anything. I'm very nervous; what happened to your stuff, your space? How did that resolve? [chuckles] CHRIS: I finally bit the bullet. And so I have a bunch of...I've tried a bunch of the different pieces of software that will visually analyze your disk space. So they crawl the whole directory starting from the very root of your computer, and it will be like, all right, applications has this much, and the library directory in your home directory has this much. Here are all of the different places that stuff might be hiding on your computer. And then you can visualize and be like, okay, that's where the most of it is. Node modules, as an aside, we did not choose an efficient way to approach how to put code on my computer because Node modules take up a lot of space on my computer, but they're so spread out. Multiple times I've seen people share a version of rm -rf, and then it's some subshell that does find every Node modules directory underneath a code folder. So you can find every single Node module and just blow them away. That will regain you some space. But that was not the solution this time. I've tried lots of piecemeal solutions over time. But eventually, the thing that got me there was just busting all of those caches. So I cleared the backup utility, Arq's cache. I cleared a bunch of them, Spotify Yarn, et cetera. And that cleared enough space for the installer to actually run. And then, once that was done, the installer program itself was no longer around, so I reclaimed that space. But it was this weird chicken and egg thing where I had to have enough space to complete the installation such that the installer could go away. And now...actually, let me see what my hard drive looks like now. So somehow, according to the Macintosh hard drive info, I have 50 gigabytes of available space, which is really frustrating because there were a number of weeks where we went into a Bike Shed recording, and I was like, I have one gigabyte. I'm not safe right now because this audio is going to be more than that. And so I don't know how now I'm sitting at 50. I guess all those caches that I cleared and the installer being gone probably puts me in a good spot. But anyway, I'm living in an upgraded, wonderful world. As an aside, Big Sur is ridiculously rounded and colorful and almost cartoonish. They're really leaning into the iOS vibes. And I'm not sure it's my personal aesthetic, but that's fine. I spend most of my time in the terminal anyway. But I think that's enough of me ranting about upgrading my operating system, which apparently I had a lot to say about. But what else is up in your world, Steph? STEPH: I do appreciate the ranting, though. You're not often grumpy, and when you are, it's quite humorous. [laughs] I really enjoy the grumpiness. And it's often a painful process. So I appreciate all of that story. Something that I really need to share with you and get off my chest is a couple; I don't know, x number of episodes back, you and I were talking about computer chairs. And I bragged about the fact that I have a computer chair that has no armrest, and I love it. I love my chairs like this, and it's wonderful. And I just think it's the best way to live. And it turns out that that's bad because I happened to go see a massage therapist who's also very well-skilled in physical therapy and other areas. And they were talking to me about my desk setup. And I mentioned the fact that I get these typical headaches, and I have my chair, but there's no armrest. And they're like, "Oh, that would do it." I was like, "Why? I like my setup. What's wrong with it?" And they're like, "Well, if you don't have armrests, then your back is having to compensate and to hold up your arms and your shoulders all day. So while you're typing, you're using more muscles to then hold that. And then they eventually tighten and contract, and then that can cause headaches." So in case, I have led anyone astray into having no armrest, they are apparently very important to not having headaches or having your back overworked to the point that you have headaches, which I'm a bit sad about. But on that front, I have ordered a new chair, and we'll see how it goes. I will have to assimilate into the world of chairs with armrests. CHRIS: We welcome you with open armrests. [laughs] Sorry, I saw it, and then I went with it. Anyway, I'm realizing now I actually don't use the armrests on my chair per se. I actually end up putting my arms on the desk, which is probably not ideal either. I have a little wrist pad so that my wrists are brought up and so that I don't have the upward breaking of the wrist thing going on. I think that matters a lot. And then my arms are supported by the desk, but it is just right on the desk, and I wonder if that's worse. But I've never...I don't know, getting the armrests just right and then also having the wrist pad. But I can't adjust my desk is probably the main problem. If I could bring my desk down a little bit, and if it were a thinner top, then I'd have more flexibility. The chair that I have is wonderful and has flexibility. The arms can go up and forward into the side and lumbar and this and that. And so I'm able to make the chair work to the desk. But I do wish I had more of an adjustable...ideally, like a stand-sit desk. But I haven't made that jump just yet. STEPH: When you're ready to make that jump, I'm going to share with you where I bought my desk because I'm really happy with it. And it's also not nearly as expensive as most of the other desks that will go up and down. CHRIS: Presumably, we can include it in the show notes as well so that we share it with everyone. STEPH: Definitely, yeah. CHRIS: Otherwise, that's just kind of mean. [laughs] You and I have a weird back channel that we talk about on the show, but they're not actually put in the show notes. STEPH: We're not mean. We wouldn't do that. I love my desk. And it was from someone else. They're the ones that shared it with me, so I'm happy to pass it along because it has served me well. And yeah, I'm also not sure about how this is going to work with the chair and the armrest because I'm just worried they're going to be too wide, and they're not going to actually offer support. I have doubts. I have lots of doubts, but I'm willing to investigate. And we'll see how this goes because I would like for the headaches to stop. CHRIS: Good luck on that front. That definitely seems like an indication of worth putting in some effort there. STEPH: Agreed. I also have some other exciting news. Stephen Hanson at thoughtbot has organized a number of other thoughtboters to get together who are interested in really diving into leveling up, learning React, and specifically focusing on purchasing the Kent C. Dodd's Epic React course. And it's for anyone that is comfortable writing code, whether you know React really well or if you're new to it. Everyone's welcome to join. So we just kicked that off today where we're going to go through the course together and then meet every Friday. I think the cadence is probably three hours, three and a half hours every Friday, that then we're going to commit to working through the course together. And I have to admit, I always nerd out a bit over how does someone build a course? Like, I'm really excited about the content as well, but I just want to know how did someone go about producing this content and then sharing it with everyone? And then what's their outline? How do they help people that are getting stuck because they can't be there in the same room? How do they record their videos? So I'm really excited to see all the ways that Kent has crafted this workshop. And so far, there's so much content, but I'll have more to report as we really start to dive in. But I'm excited to revisit React because I haven't been in React land for at least a year and a half; it's been a while. And so it's one of those areas that I know some bits, but a lot has also changed. And I would like to just revisit that world. So I'm really excited to dive into the course. And so far, I really like the structure that Kent has taken with the curriculum where we're focusing first on what exactly is happening and all the effort that goes into if you wanted to actually write HTML and then layer on JavaScript on top of that. But then here's how React makes that easier for you. Here is how JSX makes it even easier on top of the React API. I really liked that. Here's some pain; feel a little bit of pain, let's get a little bit better. And then let's get even better on top of that. And that has been a really nice reminder and progression into the course. CHRIS: I'm definitely a fan of the way you're describing it like, feel some pain, and then let's get better. But then, like, what's the hook? With any educational content, this is the sort of structure where there can be full education. But this is the thing that I feel very deeply about conference talks is my goal isn't to teach you everything if I'm giving a conference talk; it is just to get your attention just to say, "Here's the thing, here's why you might care." And starting from the problem, starting from the pain is always such a good way to do that. Because you know how this stuff is hard? What if I had an option that was easier? And then building from that totally makes sense. I want to say that course, Kent's course was built in conjunction with the egghead team, egghead.io. And it's a distinctly branded course. But it was built on top of the framework in the platform that's there and all of that, and then some of the editing support. I don't know this for certain, but I think there was some teamwork there. And I love just pushing forward the envelope of how we do educational content in the world of development because it is such an interesting world that has, frankly, such a need for ongoing development. The world is changing out from underneath us every two days. And therefore, having great educational content is so important. So yeah, definitely interested to hear how your experience goes both with the course and then also diving deeper into React. Well, switching gears just a little bit, I had a topic that I wanted to dig into with you today. And so to give some context, the topic, the thing that we're going to be talking about today is what have we changed our mind about? So you and I have both done a little bit of thinking and tried to come up with some answers to this. The background, this was actually inspired by a tweet that I saw between Shawn Wang, aka "Swyx" on the internet, and Charity Majors, a recent guest here on this podcast. And Charity is someone who is known for having strong opinions. But Shawn asked the question of what are some opinions that you've changed your mind about? And Charity actually had a wonderful list, which we'll link to her tweet thread where she shared some of her both technical and then also more personal ones, but really talking about the sort of evolution of thinking and the way someone's thoughts can change over time. And I thought it was just such an interesting thing because, for most points in time, we experience someone's sort of snapshot of where are you at now? What do you believe to be true? But I think there's such an interesting story and sort of the arc there of what did you believe to be true that you don't anymore? What have you softened your beliefs on? What have you strengthened your beliefs on? So yeah, with that as the context, what have you changed your mind about, Steph? STEPH: Yeah, this one really got me thinking, and I feel a little stumped on it. I have a few that I'm excited to share. But I'm very excited to hear your list to see if that also helps me reflect more on some of the things that I have changed my mind about. And I have found that there's only a couple maybe that I feel like I've really solidly changed my mind about. The others, I've either dialed up the strictness, or I've dialed it down. So the ones where I've really changed my mind about are feature flags and comments. Those are two of them. Well, there's a third one, but I'll get to that in a moment. So starting with the first one, feature flags I was more in the camp where I very much appreciate feature flags, but I use them sparingly because then there is a tedious nature of introducing them and then having to clean them up, and then having to maintain two states of code. But now I've really seen the value of feature flags and how we can make sure that we have calm releases and ensuring that main is always in a deployable state. So feature flags is one for me. I'm very invested in having more of a robust feature flag system because I see the benefit to that. The other one was comments. I used to be very rigid about comments are bad. We should never have comments in our code. They are just waiting to go out of date, and they're not going to be helpful. But I have since dialed down that strictness where I have certainly seen moments where comments do feel very helpful, and I can see how people use them. I still want to avoid them for the most part, but I am less strict now in regards to people who really find value in comments. I'm more open to that discussion. I want to understand what it is they find helpful about that comment, and if it is something that we can't capture with code or a test, where does that live? CHRIS: Those are both interesting. Feature flags, for me, I think I actually was more strongly opposed in the beginning. Earlier on in my career, I saw them as added complexity, as noise. I often would encounter them left behind in a codebase. And so, I had this negative association with them. And I didn't see the value; I hadn't yet felt that pain. And over time, I've definitely shifted to where you're at where I'm like, I love feature flags. This is a critical tool in our toolset of how we actually…like you said, calm deploys, being able to always deploy main, making sure that we don't have long-running feature branches. There are so many benefits that come out of it that I'm now very strongly in favor of them. But it's interesting; I think I would say that I started in a more strongly opposed place. So that wasn't on my list, but it's an interesting one that you've brought up and probably one that I've moved more on. Code comments, I think, actually started in my career being like, obviously, you comment your code. It's the thing that I read about and stuff. And slowly, over time, I think I've just dialed in on I don't think we should be doing that. There are, of course, going to be exceptions. And actually, one of the things that I discovered about myself as I was trying to go through this exercise is there are very few things that I believe are black and white. If anything, that maybe is one of the things that I've leaned into over time. It's like, nothing is binary. Nothing is black and white. Everything is on a continuum or shades of gray. There are things that I believe a little more seriously. But there's almost nothing that I can be like, nope, absolutely I will not equivocate on this beyond how we interact with other humans and being reasonable, kind people. And in terms of software practices, not really. Comments, though, are one that I still am pretty strongly not going to lean into. So it's interesting that you're like, eh, I've kind of opened up to that one. STEPH: There's a particular talk, The Art of Code Comments by Sarah Drasner, and that's the one that really shifted some of my opinions around comments, and then how we talk about them, and what benefits they can play. But I will admit, if I see a PR that has code comments, I still immediately have a negative reaction to that. And I want to have a conversation around why that comment was added and if we can remove it, and how we can remove it. But even with that negative perspective, I still find that I'm more open to that discussion versus before, where I would have been like, no, that's just unequivocally bad. CHRIS: I do like that you always bring up that talk whenever we talk about comments. This is a great talk. And in the background, I just looked up Sarah's Twitter profile because every time you bring it up, then I mention that she has a still from the movie Labyrinth in her Twitter background, but she actually changed it. And so now that's not true anymore. It's now something from The Force Awakens. Well, it's actually a joke, but I'm still going to suggest that you watch the movie Labyrinth at some point. That's the thing that I feel actually kind of weird about. It's a weird movie. STEPH: I'm going to take your suggestion, but not watch it. But thank you. [laughs] To share my truth today. CHRIS: That's fair, that's fair. STEPH: What are some of the things on your list? CHRIS: Okay, I have a couple, some more on the technical. Let's lean into one of the technical ones. Early on, I started with dynamic languages. I think I started with Python primarily and a little bit of JavaScript. I eventually found my way to Ruby and felt very at home there. And then, I started to explore functional languages. And I started to lean into them really hard and felt that immutability and functional programming and true pure functional programming was the thing. It was the answer, and I just needed to figure out how to do it. And so I would say that is the belief that I have since changed my mind on and decided, you know what? Actually, it feels like a bit of a force fit. I have tried. And maybe for others, it is actually a really fantastic way to build software. But having worked with a number of other people in more functional contexts, I find that it is a bit of a force fit. It's a bit rough. And in particular, of late, I've been working with Svelte as opposed to React, and React does sort of lean into the functional paradigm, especially with Hooks and all those sorts of things. And it's a little bit rough because it turns out UIs are these deeply mutable things. We're changing values or typing things in. There are actions that are changing the state over time, and having a system that just more directly models that feels very natural. I still love functional programming for the more core of an application. So again, I reference this talk often, but Gary Bernhardt's Functional Core, Imperative Shell. Gary has really formed some of my thinkings on this. And now I've started to find the examples in the work that I'm doing of like, oh, okay, I see that pattern actually applied here. But much as I would love to use them, the functional languages I find just aren't quite landing for me. And additionally, the mutability, particularly in the front end right at the edge of the UI, is not quite as good of a fit. STEPH: So I think that resonates with me although I do still get very excited about following more patterns that represent more immutable state just because I felt so much pain and found bugs from the fact that we have mutated state in surprising ways. I'm honestly not quite sure how I feel about it. I'm going to have to think on that one. That's a very interesting one that you've changed your mind on. CHRIS: Yeah, similarly, my feelings are lukewarm, whereas before, they were stronger. I was like, oh, okay, I think I found something here. And then, in attempting to use it across a wide variety of applications, it just didn't quite feel right. I felt like I was swimming upstream sort of thing. Actually, there is an interesting counterpoint. One thing that I have leaned into and definitely changed my mind on and embraced is static typing or, broadly, static analysis. But I think static typing being the most pointed version of that. Early on, like I said, I got my start in very dynamic languages in Ruby, and Python, and JavaScript. And so that dynamic duck typing runtime can be anything. We just make our systems respond to the messages, and all of that sounded great. But it turns out I really love having a compiler that can tell me some truths about my program before it ever reaches runtime. And the idea that a typo can make it to production feels absurd at this point. And actually, as I'm working in Ruby, I'm like, man, I really got to go look at that whole Ruby typing thing we got going on. I don't know what the state of it is. I've looked at it in the past, and I need to revisit it soon. But like TypeScript, I've definitely embraced that very strongly. And I would not work without TypeScript in a JavaScript project at this point. I've loved the work that I've done in Elm, although that also sort of blends into the functional stuff where it's like, it was a little bit noisy, though, I'll say that. But the type system and the fact that the compiler can give you so much rich information about your program, I would not trade that at this point. And I don't see myself going back on that front, which is an interesting place for me to be on of actually, I'm not that into the functional programming as the core way that I build my applications. But I do like static typing. And I feel like functional programming and static typing actually go together incredibly well. And functional programming and, more imperative, whatever it is that I'm doing with my day-to-day life these days is a more interesting fit. But it is interesting to me to observe that sort of combination of opinions where I really like static typing, and having a compiler, and something that can tell me about my program before I get to runtime. But also saying that I don't quite want the functional programming thing, or at least not as the entire way that I modeled my application because I found it a bit difficult to work with. Because I think static typing or compilers and functional programming go really well together. But I think generally, what I'm finding is a more middle ground dynamic optimization of a bunch of different things. And the answer is like, well, it depends which I guess if you've listened to the show before, you'll have heard those words said, so I guess it makes sense. STEPH: Yeah. All of that makes sense to me. And I can see why you might have a favor for types or why that feels more valuable initially because that is giving us so much feedback right off the bat versus following a more functional paradigm is something that could feel like more of a force fit and doesn't provide that same immediate feedback. But it has a longer-term or a longer cycle of that reward system. So I can see why you might favor one over the other or why I myself would favor one over the other. CHRIS: How do you feel about types? STEPH: I'm a big fan, although I say that, but I work in Ruby. [laughs] I don't have them. But when I have worked with types, I very much enjoyed it because it makes me think more about the design of my code in a way that I don't as much with Ruby. And working with types has heavy influence than when I am working in Ruby and thinking about the design of my code. So I think working with types is a wonderful thing that, frankly, all of us should do as developers at some point because it is so influential. So I'm for types, but I'm not using types in my day-to-day. Another thing that I have changed my mind about is how we structure the work that each person is doing. So I used to be more in the camp of everybody can work on their own very complicated piece of codebase, their own complicated feature. We can have a bunch of complicated things in the sprint, and everything will just be great; it'll be fine. And we'll get a bunch of work done, and we'll ship it. And then we're an even more productive team. And I very much disagree with that now where I have found where everybody is working in their own silo on a complicated feature has slowed down the progress of then being able to ship that feature. Because we often want to collaborate with someone, we need to collaborate with someone. Then the PR review process is tough if I really have no idea what you're working on, and I don't have a context that then when I look at your code, not only am I evaluating at the code level, but then I'm also trying to understand the feature and gain all of that context. And that's a heavy cost for me to have to pay to then pick all of that up and then for you to have to reintroduce me to what's happening. Or I might make the bigger mistake, and I may look at your code and just evaluate it from the code perspective but not really understand the feature, the value that's being delivered. And that doesn't feel useful. And I have a recent example where that happened where someone was working on a very complicated feature that I didn't have any insight into. So then, when I was looking at the PR, it was easier for me to just look at the code and get feedback on that. But then it was probably a day or two later. It wasn't until then that I finally started asking, what are we building? Like, what purpose is this serving? And that opened up a much larger discussion where we realized what was being built didn't actually really deliver what we needed to deliver. So I no longer agree with the idea that everybody should be working on their own complicated features independently, and there should be some collaboration. And, you know, it's the buddy system; we all need a buddy. CHRIS: Well, I like that one. I feel like I've shared similar ideas where it made sense. It was just the efficient thing to do, to split the work up and have everybody very independent. I also feel like earlier on in my career; I was more scared of Git conflicts and things like that or people interacting with the same parts of the code. And so in my mind, it made sense to really strongly separate like, oh, you shouldn't even be touching the controller for this. I'll handle the views, and you handle the controller; it'll be separate. And I care less about that now. And I think what you're saying of like, it's actually better if we have some shared context, and we understand what we're working on, and it's more of a collaborative process. Yeah, I like that one. I think I followed a similar arc, and I'm at a similar place now as well. Interestingly, to go into another one of mine that I think you'll probably be most surprised by on my list is I think I used to believe in 10x engineers. I used to believe in the idea of that one developer just off in the corner fueled entirely by Mountain Dew that would just produce the perfect code. They would just solve it. Over the weekend, they would write the entire billing system, and it would be great. And I think it was predicated on the idea that the coding is the hard part, which I no longer believe. I think coding at its core is communication. It's taking this thing that we want to be true in the world and then communicating it to a computer but also ideally communicating it to our teammates, and to future versions of ourselves, such that we can revisit that code, we can maintain it over time, other people can add to or augment it. And so the idea of this loner that can just do incredible volumes of work and have that be a good outcome that just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I've worked with incredibly talented developers, to be clear, folks that I was sort of in awe of. I've worked with people who have, I think, just truly photographic memories. They seem to remember every single bug that they've ever had and exactly where they can look it up. Or from the top of their head, they can just intuitively know, oh, this bug means this. Go look at this line of code. I'm like, how did you do that? How did you do that magic trick? And they're incredibly capable developers. But at the end of the day, the folks that I see being most impactful on a team are the folks that are able to communicate and collaborate most effectively and make the whole team more effective. STEPH: Maybe it's the Mountain Dew; maybe that's actually the secret sauce here. That's what I'm missing from my life to take me into that status. CHRIS: I'm now imagining Mountain Dew but in a more viscous form, like a barbecue sauce, but it's Mountain Dew flavored. That's the secret sauce because it's a very…anyway, moving on. [laughs] STEPH: It's a terrible product. We should make it and sell it. [laughter] CHRIS: Career pivot, we now sell Mountain Dew sauce. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: But yeah, I do not believe in 10x engineers anymore. If anything, I believe that that is a huge warning sign if you have anyone that's behaving in something close to that space. STEPH: Yeah, I'm super interested in that you've shared because I don't think...We've talked about 10xers, but we haven't talked about the fact that you used to think that they were more of a thing and that they existed. And now it's all I'm sorry, but it's all crap. [chuckles] That's super interesting to me. Do you remember what changed your mind? Do you remember that pivotal moment of where you were like, oh, maybe this is all bullshit? CHRIS: I think it was just an amalgamation of experience over time. I've encountered people who fit the archetype. But if anything, I would say they're deeply problematic in teams. They're that individual who refuses to collaborate, who just goes off and heads down, writes a bunch of code, but then it doesn't integrate with the other pieces, or no one else knows how to use it, or they won't let anyone contribute to it. And yeah, I've seen that just be very, very problematic. So the folks that most fit, I think the imagined version of this, actually end up, in my experience, leading things astray. And the folks that are actually most productive and really cause teams to improve in a drastic way behave very differently. They're much more collaborative; they're much more engaged with the team. It's less about their individual contributions and it's more about building a system together, collaborating, communicating, engaging external stakeholders, et cetera, et cetera. It's all that stuff that matters. And so, it's very much in contrast to what the 10x engineer ethos is about. But there's no one day where suddenly this idea that I had in my head crumbled when I saw that behind the pile of Mountain Dew cans, there was nothing there. [laughs] STEPH: It's all a mirage. [laughs] I do like what you just said around that there are very impressive people out there. And those impressive people often focus less on their individual contributions and more at a higher level around communication. And then they are the powerhouses that then is helping facilitate everybody else be their best and have high levels of individual contribution. Those are the ones that...I'm still not going to endorse a 10xer, but they are the ones who, to me, embody the idea of someone that is incredibly efficient and really good at their job. CHRIS: There's an adage that comes to mind here that "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." And that does ring true to me. I think an individual can have their individual productivity be higher if they're working entirely on their own, if they understand every line of code because they wrote every single line of code if they know where every feature of the platform is integrated because they wrote the whole thing. But they're going to be fundamentally limited. And in order to do bigger, more complex things, fundamentally, we have to work as a team. And then the way you have to interact just fundamentally changes. So I think it started from that, like, one person on their own I think can be individually more effective. But the minute you start to have a team, that one person acting on their own is actually dragging the team down because other people can't then work in that space, and that's a problem. STEPH: I really like that adage that you just shared where, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together." And that touches on something else that I have really changed my mind about, and that's representation. And this is more specific to me. So when I joined engineering and became a web developer, and I joined a team, and I was the only female engineer on that team, my initial feelings were I am the only female engineer, and that is fine. We're all just a group of engineers. We're here to solve problems together. It really doesn't matter if there's anyone here on this team that's like me. It's fine if there's no one that I can see myself in that's in leadership because we're all just people, is what I was coming down to. And I've completely changed my mind and realized that that's not true. And I've experienced this where I've worked on other engineering teams with female engineers, and it's fucking awesome, and it does make a difference. And then when I can see someone that I can see myself in, in a leadership position, that is also inspiring. So that is something that I went in where I think it was more of I was trying to shield myself from the idea that I am different from everybody else in this room, and that could be a problem. And instead, I just tried to neutralize it by saying it's not. But I think representation is incredibly important. People are not just people. We all have very important social and racial, and cultural identities. And it's very important that we get to feel that we can express all of those identities and see people that represent those identities in spaces where we would like to go. That's a big one that I've changed my mind on. CHRIS: Yeah, I certainly agree that representation certainly matters, and being able to bring your full authentic self to work and seeing others around you that reflect that. And frankly, having teams that are made up of people that represent the users of the software that we're building feels so critically important. And it's very interesting to hear about the arc that you've had on that where initially, you tried to downplay it, but then you found a little more truth in it. And so yeah, thank you for sharing. STEPH: You're welcome. It feels good to say that, too, because that's something that I've admitted and realized on my own, that that is something that has changed and shifted. But it's nice to be able to share that here with you as we're going through the things that we've changed our mind about. What else is on your list? CHRIS: Well, to round us off with one more very technical version because, of course, that's where I'm going to take us after a much deeper and more nuanced topic that you led us on, single-page applications. Broadly, I'm opposed to the name; that's a side conversation. But, man, URLs matter on the internet. So don't call them single-page applications, but client-side applications or whatever. Broadly, the idea of a bundle of JavaScript, and so you send down an empty HTML document, and then you reference a bundle of JavaScript, which that thing boots up and it then makes a bunch of API requests to the backend, and then it starts to fill in the page. I was convinced for a while that this is a reasonable and perhaps even necessary way to build software. We need APIs for our mobile apps anyway. So if we're doing that, then let's have that be the consistent way that we are accessing information. This is going to be fine; it's not a problem. And then eventually, we found some problems. So then we got GraphQL, and we tried to solve it that way. But overall…and I have spent a lot of time trying to make this thing work, trying to find a version of this that I'm happy with that I find the end outcome of the software to be as pleasant to work with from an end-user perspective as a server-driven application, and I can't find it. And so, to be clear, I'm still doing client-rendered applications these days. But Inertia.js is the framework that I've leaned into that helps me bridge that gap. And the idea that the server owns routing, that the server owns statefulness, things like that, not having to think about client-side routing, not having to think about client-side state management, being able to use traditional auth mechanisms built into cookies, all of these familiar things that we've had. Leveraging the fact that the server is the more privileged in terms of the information it has access to, the more secure, the more powerful environment, all of these things feel right to me. And the nature of the application that I can build just feels more robust, more consistent, easier to evolve. There were a lot of promises that I heard when we started building applications in these ways. And I just haven't seen an example or have not worked on an example, at least of an application that is built as a client-side bundle that boots up and does some stuff and had a good experience with that. So Inertia, as an aside, is my answer to this. And I continue to be extremely happy with that as a solution, as really a middle-ground solution. Because going all the way back to true HTML server-side rendering is limiting in other ways that I didn't like. But I find that Inertia really strikes an ideal balance in the middle there. STEPH: I feel like I completely agree with everything you're saying. But I also feel like I have a developer secret to share where I really haven't worked on single-page applications, and I am okay with that. [laughs] CHRIS: It's fine, skip it. Just go straight to Inertia. It's better. STEPH: Cool, cool, cool. I am working on leveling up React, and then the plan is to go to Svelte and Inertia. So I'll just completely...I'll skip that. I'll skip that part of my career. CHRIS: I actually want to back up just a little bit as I'm saying this because I really try to avoid being in a more negative space. And I think this space, this architecture for building applications, is complex, and there are things that will warrant it. So things like Google Maps, it makes sense to have a lot of Dynamic JavaScript and to be doing complex things on the client-side. Trello is another example of an application that that as a server-rendered thing, doesn't really make sense. And frankly, using a tool like Inertia wouldn't quite work there. That said, that is, in my mind, truly a single page within the broader application. So the Trello board page is a very, very complex stateful application, and I think modeling it as such makes sense. Google Maps, similar. But there's still the profile page, and the login page, and all of these other things. I think routing is probably where it breaks down for me. I think client-side routing is the thing that I feel the most pain on. Because at the end of the day, the server still needs to know the answer. And if we do client-side routing, we end up with this duplication of logic across the client and the server-side. We end up with disagreements from time to time. We end up with the weird flashes of half-rendered layout, and then we go to the login page because we get an API response that is different. And so, I think that is probably the kernel of the thing that I struggle with. And, of course, it is possible to build great things using any of these technologies. But I think my summary is I've really tried on that front, and I've just not been able to make the fidelity of application that I want using…primarily; I'd say it's client-side routing is the thing that I struggle with the most. STEPH: Yeah, it sounds like you're saying there are very valid use cases for using a single-page app or following that structure. But we haven't really gotten there in terms of our web development expertise, where we've made that easier to maintain and easier to implement. And there's still enough pain points around it that even though it seems like a very valid idea and approach, it still feels painful enough that you actively avoid it until it feels like something that you have to then invest in at that point to then really deliver the user experience that you want to provide. CHRIS: Yeah, I think that's an accurate summary. And I think adding on to that, I'm noticing it becoming more and more of the standard approach; this is the way we build applications, and I don't agree with that. That is probably the thing that is the kernel of what I don't believe in. I think actually server rendering is a great way to start, and then you can slowly augment or move more things into complex client-side behavior. But starting with this as the mode that we're building our applications just feels like a less stable foundation than I would want. So it's perhaps an architecture that you want to evolve to at some point as the complexity necessitates it, but I definitely wouldn't be starting there. Similar to service-oriented architecture, not going to start there. Client-side routing, I'm not going to start there. STEPH: Ooph. I feel like I've been holding my breath this episode. I feel like this was a very interesting topic that has been challenging to reflect on what we believe and what we've changed our mind about. CHRIS: I think it's perhaps more nuanced than a lot of our episodes where often we're saying this is what we did, and this is how we felt in the moment. And that can be very experiential and true. But this, yeah, we had to draw the line in the sand and say what do we believe? I similarly definitely feel more tension in this episode than other ones. But hopefully, it was useful. Hopefully, folks found some value in the things, and hearing our story, also, the idea that we have singular formed opinions. Hopefully, this episode has broken that idea in anyone's head. And we're all on a journey. STEPH: I really like how this has prompted me to reflect on the things that I used to hold dear and really cherish or follow strictly to then reflect on what are things that I used to believe versus what I believe now? Because that transition often happens so seamlessly for me that I don't really stop to think about it to be like, oh, something just happened that is really changing how I approach things, how I build, how I work with teams. And I really like this reflection point to be like, oh, what did I used to believe, and what's different today? I'd like to keep this practice going and just try to track the things...I'll have to make a list of all the things I believe. That seems like an easy list. [laughs] CHRIS: Just the easiest list to write. STEPH: The easiest list to write. And then I'll just check in with it every so often, scratch stuff out, or update it with the things that have changed my mind about. This is the good idea, terrible idea where you go, "Stephanie, that's a terrible idea." [laughs] CHRIS: I don't know, write it down on a list, and then look at it in six months and see if it sounds like a good idea, and then we'll be able to close the loop on the whole thing. But with that, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. I've got a list to write. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @bikeshedor reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeee! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris gives a DB sessions update and talks bifunctors & command objects. Steph shares the coolness of a gem she's been using called after_party, and excitedly gushes about her new laptop. (Chris is hoping to hold off on replacing his until the end of the year and then they can compare!) The two then answer a listener question on retrospectives and how they've seen productive ones run, while giving some of their own helpful opinions on dos and don'ts. They're talking to you, Grumpy Goose! dry-monads gem (https://github.com/dry-rb/dry-monads) attr_extras gem (https://github.com/barsoom/attr_extras) after_party gem (https://github.com/theSteveMitchell/after_party) What Went Well? - Bike Shed 123 (https://www.bikeshed.fm/132) What I Believe About Software - Bike Shed 172 (https://www.bikeshed.fm/172) Is Agile Over? - Bike Shed 299 (https://www.bikeshed.fm/299) Running a Retrospective - Upcase (https://thoughtbot.com/upcase/videos/running-a-retrospective) Transcript: STEPH: Cool. [laughter] CHRIS: Good. No, I like what you did there. STEPH: Yeah, I feel like we can get rambling on that one. CHRIS: It's been great. This is what the Bike Shed is at its best. It's the two of us just rambling and being like, well, what about this? And if it's this, then that, then these, and it depends. And it's complicated and it's nuanced. And what about the humans? That's the story of The Bike Shed right there. [laughs] STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm CHRIS Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. Hey, Chris, how's your week? CHRIS: My week has been good. I have some updates actually on some topics from previous episodes. One of the things that I can update on is the discussion around the cookie versus the database store. So I had posed this as a thing that I was going to be doing in the app for a handful of reasons. Most notably, I wanted the ability to invalidate sessions from the server-side, wanted to have a little more control over that. And so that's a dream that the database-backed session store can do. Eventually, I have to make that actually work in the way that I want. But I was asking the question in that episode, which we can include a link to the specific episode, but I was asking the question of why don't we just do this all the time? The database-backed sessions seem better in all these ways. It's a lower overhead per request because you're just sending the session ID and the cookie instead of the whole payload of the session. You actually can have more data stored in it, a bunch of things that seemed really great. And then right after I introduced it, I figured out the thing. I figured out the secret. It's not a big issue, and we're going to stick with database session stores. But we have to be purposeful because it turns out they are essentially plain text in the database. And so if there's anything that you are putting into the session like say a social security number or an authentication token or other things which naturally I might have done if it was in a cookie that lives on the user's browser and never actually lives on the server, persists on the server, that seems fine to me. But now these things are getting stored in the database and that really changes the calculus, especially because if I'm not purposeful, they'll just stick around for forever. So social security is probably the most pointed example of this. If you happen to have a form in the app that accepts a social security number and you want that to persist through some number of other steps, not actually going to store the social security number in the database because that's a thing that I have actively chosen not to do. I need to send it off to some other system, but I do need to hold onto it for a few minutes. The session is a perfect place to put that unless the session gets stored in my database. STEPH: That's such a great point. I'm so glad you discovered that. And in our recent conversation, we were trying to think of the reasons why this isn't the default case. You may be headed in this direction, but this may also be timely, the fact that you're discovering this issue but also the fact that Rail 6.0 now has encrypted columns. Is that where you're headed with the fact that you can still keep session data in a database? CHRIS: That is a great question, and it is an intriguing option. But it's not the one that I'm going with here. I think broadly, my hope is to completely avoid ever persisting this data in the database, this truly sensitive user-specific PII or PCI or social security numbers or any of these other fancy acronyms that get collected together under the umbrella of I probably don't want that on my server. For those, I'm just opting to push them back into a cookie. So I'm using particularly a...In rails, it's fun because they have a fluent interface where you can just chain together things, so it's cookies.signed.encrypted.whatever, and then you go from there. But I'm using signed, encrypted cookie, which is essentially what the session store views; the cookie session store uses itself. So I'm basically reverting to the old session store behavior for specific values. So anything that is truly sensitive like that, I'm just saying, cool, that's actually just going to live in a cookie, and that will be it, but not leaning on the ability to encrypt the database sessions. There's just enough subtlety around that. There's so much volume of data if I do allow that sensitive data into the system that any failure, any exploit that happens, would be somewhat catastrophic. So, in my mind, this lowers the surface area and says, yeah, this data really never lives on the server. It comes with a request, and then it's gone after the fact. And that's the world I want to live in. STEPH: Yeah, that's super interesting. You're also raising questions for me that I hadn't considered when we originally had this conversation where there's necessity or that you're looking to store form data or sensitive data in that session as well. So that makes a lot of sense to me that for that type of behavior, we're going to separate that from the idea of authentication and the user session and still use encrypted cookies for those details. So it only stays with the user's browser, but then the actual authentication of a user that part could still live in the database. CHRIS: It is ending up being a weird Venn diagram of; this is data that I want to stick around but only sometimes and particular to the machine that the user is interacting with because the session is still associated with a cookie at the end of the day. So a user may have multiple sessions in the database-backed session version. It is somewhat interesting, and I'm going to see how it develops over time. But yeah, at a minimum, I have now found this edge case of like, ooh, okay, sensitive data, that's a thing, which is one of the reasons that I would reach for the session inherently. So it turns out, as always, it depends. Things are complicated. STEPH: It's a nice update. I like when we have closure to a question like that, especially so quickly. CHRIS: Love to provide that continuity. It's what I'm all about. But yeah, what's up in your world? STEPH: What's up in my world? I am excited that I have a new laptop. So I have been using a MacBook Pro for about the last...it's lasted me for a while. I think I've had it for a good four, four, and a half years, but that's on the fritz. The keyboard, in particular, the keys are popping off, and that's something that I could go get fixed. But I'm at the point that I need a new laptop. So I have a brand new shiny laptop. And I had the option to either go with a 16-inch MacBook Pro or to go with one of the new, fancy laptops that has the M1 chip. And I was torn for a little while because having the M1 chip sounds really cool and novel, and there's a lot of speed improvements that come with that. But I ended up going with just the 16-inch MacBook Pro; specifically, one, it's still very fast. It's very reliable. I can use this as my work machine and just know everything's going to work. That part feels really important to me. And then also the screen size is important. So any Mac laptop that is using the new M1 chip, I think they only go up to a 13-inch, right now, screen size. And I really want the 16-inch in case I am traveling, so I have that larger desktop. But I did do some research into the M1 just because I know about it. I know it's out there. I know it's hot. People are interested in it, but I didn't know a whole lot about it. So for anyone else that's like me and is curious about what the heck this M1 chip is, it's essentially Apple's foray into making their own processors. So traditionally, their machines have used Intel CPUs and third-party graphic processors, and other parts. And this introduction of the M1 chip really represents Apple's switch to having their own internal architecture rather than relying on those third-party parts. And it also means that all those features that were sourced from other parties like the CPU and its security are now being combined into a single chip, which has also led to some performance improvements. And while I was reading about the M1, there's a lot to go through, but the thing that stood out to me was this idea of Apple's Neural Engine. And I thought, well, that sounds super fancy. What is that? Are you familiar with Apple's Neural Engine? Have you read about that? CHRIS: I don't think I am. What all is that? STEPH: Yeah, good question. That was a question I was asking myself just recently. So essentially, their neural engine it's a microprocessor that specializes in the acceleration of machine learning algorithms. So it's really similar to how a GPU will focus on accelerating graphics rendering. And their neural engine or neural engines in general then focus on accelerating neural network operations. And the inclusion of a neural engine isn't something that's new because Apple introduced this into iPhones and iPads back in 2017 to support their features like Face ID and emoji, searching for photos with dog pictures. Siri speech recognition is also one that's using this engine and other machine learning tasks. But the sparkly stat that Apple is sharing with this new design is it's a 16-core design that can perform 11 trillion operations per second, which sounds very fancy, very fast. But it really got me thinking about how companies are working to improve, not just laptops but also our mobile devices to run machine learning software more efficiently, and then how that's just going to evolve and change all the different features that we use, and then how developers can integrate with this engine. I think currently, Apple hasn't shared much information about how this engine works, but I think they've exposed a few developer tools so people can still build features that will then use the power of this faster, improved neural engine. CHRIS: Oh, that's super interesting. I have still not really delved into machine learning or artificial intelligence, or any of that stuff in any real way. But it's one of those things like the number of mentions is ticking up. And at some point, I'm like; I probably have to pay attention to this, don't I? I'm still in the not paying attention to it camp. So if I'm understanding, though, you just described this wonderful feature, but you opted for the machine that does not have all the fancy stuff. You did not... STEPH: Exactly. [laughs] CHRIS: Okay, yeah. STEPH: Yes, it would have been nice. That would have been neat, but yeah, I needed a machine with a larger screen, all those good things. And that's still really fast, for the record. CHRIS: Oh yeah. I'm desperately hoping to make it to the end of this year. This is going to be a bit of a rumor mill here, but my understanding is the expectation is that Apple is going to release a 14-inch MacBook Pro with the M1 and the return of MagSafe, and the removal of the touch bar. And that sounds like my dream machine right there. I want that piece of hardware. I also seem to care a little bit less about the size of the laptop screen. I'm so often working at my desk with a large-format monitor that I'm connected to. And so, when I'm on the road, I want to optimize for portability when I'm traveling because I do it so rarely, and then I'm hopefully focusing on travel at that point. But we'll see if that remains true as the shape of my work changes and I start to not only work from home. And maybe I'll actually change my tune on that. But for now, that's my hope is to make it to that machine and then get one, and that it exists because right now, those are all rumors. STEPH: Well, I totally support this goal of yours. So that way, you can have that new-new, and then you can report back on what it's like, and then we can compare. Because I'll have the other version, the Intel CPU, and then you'll have the M1 chip, and we can see how our lives are different. CHRIS: You'll have the new, and I'll have the new-new, and that's how we'll categorize them. STEPH: [laughs] But yeah, I'm very much looking forward. Having a new laptop is always just such a fun feeling. It's just a clean space that I get to rebuild. It's like going through and prioritizing; what are the things that still spark joy? And then I get to only port over the stuff that I still really use all the time and want to keep. So I'm looking forward to getting it set up. CHRIS: I need to do that sometime soon. I'm like five years deep, at least on this machine. So I've been dragging along. Also, the hard drive is just completely full, and I regularly have to go through and delete things before we start recording because it turns out these audio recordings start as very large files. [chuckle] So it's almost a weekly thing where I'm just like, got to throw something out today. I don't know what. It's fine. I'm going to be fine. [laughter] I'm going to make it to the end of the year, and it's going to be great. STEPH: What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, I wrote some fancy code, and I use fancy not necessarily as a good word. [chuckle] So I'm intrigued that the code could be described perhaps as clever or other words like that, which I think are very complicated words in the coding space. I tend to try and avoid this type of coding where I'm trying to introduce abstractions and clean things up, and remove duplication because I've been burned by that so many times in the past. But this time, I think maybe this time it'll work. So, in particular, there are two different areas of the application. There were two sets of refactorings, but they really went together. One is we have the idea of command objects within the application that we're working on. So there are a lot of cases where we need to save something to the database and then communicate something to an external API. And then presuming the results of that is a successful response from them, then unpack some data, make sure it's in the right shape, and then save something else to the database. And ideally, wrap that all in a transaction and keep everything together and then return some data at the end of it. So that whole sequential operation, I've been using dry-monads to model that. I've talked about this on a few previous episodes. I'm really enjoying it. The more I lean into it, the more I find that it is just a really great way to wrap up that very procedural code. But ideally, do it in almost a functional way so that we've got these sequential operations that feed into each other. There's the railway-oriented programming stuff, which is associated with this idea. But there is a lot of boilerplate to these objects. So the way we've defined them is they have a class method called run that takes whatever the arguments are, and then it needs to pass those arguments into the initialize and then call run on the instance. So in order to define one of these objects, what we had been doing was def self.run and then all the arguments. And then inside of the body of that, it's new, and then pass forward all the arguments .run, and then define initialize to capture all of those and set all the instance variables, and then define the run method, which actually does stuff. Also need to define an Adder reader for all of those instance variables, which is a thing that I enjoy doing. So that's the interface I want, or that's the way that I want this class to work. I know other folks in the Ruby world feel differently. But that's the shape of the thing that I want, but that's a lot. And there's also I regularly would find myself forgetting to duplicate something that we put into the class method run interface into the initialize method. And it was just like, this is all just wiring up and plumbing. There's also the binding of the dry-monads do notation for the run method as well as the inclusion of the results type within dry-monads. Type is a strong word, but that gives us the success or the failure objects that we can create. So ideally, all of these command objects either return a success object or return a failure object. It's one of the two. And that's one of the things that I really like about them. But yeah, so much plumbing. So we define a base command, and the base command has the self.run method, the class method, and that method is defined very abstractly. So it's just args * keyword args. So we're capturing all of the arguments and then forwarding them on to new. So that way, I don't have to think about that interface. It basically just says, "Give me anything, and I'll forward it onto new." And the new or initialize is in charge of actually defining things. It also includes the result type. It includes the macro annotation for the run method, which is how dry-monads does its magic, that actually I had to include inline within the self.run, just because of the sequence of definition and the metaprogramming that's going on there. As I said, that sentence terrifies me a little bit, but hopefully, no one ever needs to look at this magic base class [chuckles] and figure anything out. So that was one part of it. That cleaned a lot of things up, so that meant I didn't have to write a ton of the wiring up code. Then there was still the noise of actually defining all of the arguments to these classes. They often take a handful of arguments because that's their job is to grab a bunch of things and do some work with those things. So for that, I have brought Adder Extras, which is a gem that I've talked about probably in previous episodes, I think so. But this is the first time that I've really leaned into it and used it. And it gives some very high level what look like macros are just class methods. But the one that I'm using is Adder private initialize, and that you can then pass a variety of values too. And it will then say, okay, this method accepts a required keyword arg, a defaulted keyword arg, and a positional argument or something to that effect. But it's a very, very concise way to express that and then also get the private Adder readers, which again is the direction that I want to go with all of this. So that's a bunch of things that I have said. But all total, it cleaned up these command objects very nicely. And now, when you look at one of these command objects, all you see is the run method that does the work. And the plumbing and the wiring up behind the scenes should just happen. I am concerned about the day that someone forgets to inherit from the space command, and then it's like, why does nothing work? I thought command objects just worked in the system. But we're going to deal with that when we get there, which is hopefully a while down the road. STEPH: I like how you're pushing at the boundaries of our comfort zone. I say our comfort zone because I imagine we feel similar. CHRIS: It is. We definitely got a shared comfort zone. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, we have a shared comfort zone with inheritance, but you're pushing at that boundary of that comfort with inheritance because it is something that can be so painful. But you've identified an area where inheritance feels useful. And then it also sounds like a very meaningful...you're introducing this pattern and then trying to make it easier for others to follow this pattern. So it's a very intentional design decision of where we want to group these behaviors together and then make it very easy for other developers to then pick up this pattern and run with it, and then also work with these classes. So I am intrigued to hear how it goes and how others feel about the pattern as well. I also wonder, this is one of those areas where it feels like this very intentional design decision. Is it something that you think in the base class would be worth highlighting? Like, hey, here are the things that we are using in this base class. This is the intention of this base class. I don't know if that's maybe a comment or if that's something that's documented in the README. I know; I see your eyebrows went up when I said comment. But it does feel like one of those areas where it's like, hey, we have introduced this new concept. We want you to follow along. Here are some helpful guidelines. CHRIS: Those were mostly joking eyebrow raises because I have thought of that. I haven't actually gone to that level. But in the back of my mind, there's this pattern that we have within this application. Ideally, we're going to lean into it more and more so that A, we have a clear way that we do things within the app but also make that as understandable and discoverable as possible. I'm not sure if a comment in the class is the right thing or...so I'm deferring what I want to do on that for now because right now, it's myself and one other developer. We sort of developed this in tandem. So we were working together on it. We would pair in a bunch of the features. And what we have now is the crystallization of what we found useful. And we're both very comfortable with it. So there isn't the need to explain it. I'm almost thinking about it as just-in-time educational content around this piece of our application. I don't actually trust that I would do a good job describing it in the abstract because I know it. Like, to me, this thing makes sense right now. But I've been on the other side of stuff where someone was like, "Hey, this totally makes sense." And I'm like, "I don't know any of the words you just said," and so I felt that pain being on the other side. You could say I'm just being lazy, but I do think this is a purposeful delaying of that where I want to wait until I actually have someone to teach this to. And at that moment, I want to see what that conversation looks like. And I'll try and explain it to the best of my ability, but I'm sure they're going to ask questions, and I'll be like, "Oh, wow. Yeah. I hadn't even thought of that. But now that you ask the question, totally let me explain this part that I was going to gloss over and forget to mention." And so, ideally, that is what will happen down the road. And then from that, hopefully, some artifact becomes clear, whether it's a documentation page in the repo or a comment in the class if it's simple enough or maybe even it's a recording of a pairing session. And that's the artifact that we keep around that explains this piece of the application. So I definitely think a version of that makes sense, but I am not doing it yet. STEPH: It's funny; you're saying so many good things that I agree with. I love the just-in-time education; that part is fun. And yeah, there's a part of me that definitely still leans into the idea because we've talked about this in the past too, where we write down, in the moment, the things. Having that context when we're implementing it is really important and helpful. So even if it's not this grand explanation…which I really like what you said around having someone to explain it to or have that conversation with so that way you're documenting the useful bits, that part I like very much, but capturing the intent as soon as the change was introduced. So even if it is a very high level like, hey, we are using dry-monads and Adder Extras, even if it's just links to those things, that's something that I think I would still favor just to go ahead and start surfacing this is a pattern. This is a choice. And then, as you continue to work with the pattern, if you change your mind, it's still very easy to scrap that documentation. So I think if it were me, I would still go ahead and document it. I think it's that piece about discoverability that's calling to me so strongly where that's where I want to then highlight the things that are in use. So even if there's not an explanation, people can find the resources very easily. Because you're right, you did say a lot of interesting bits in describing this pattern. And the fact that we're talking about it now also just deepens my suspicion that it would be nice to comment somewhere, and perhaps a repo is a perfect place for it and just get it out there, and then it can always be revisited later and improved. CHRIS: Okay. I like that you are keeping me honest on this because I do think there's a certain amount that I'm just being lazy here and not wanting to do that because it is actually really hard to try and document something like this. Like, what are the important pieces versus what are the extraneous details that people don't actually need? I do wonder, so the pull request that did this refactoring and introduced this base command object that does have the explanation captures the point in time and whatnot. And so I wonder, is there a version of tagging important pull requests that tell the story of the application? A lot of things are just going to be like; this is adding a feature. It's the same as the other 30 pull requests recently that added a new feature. But this one is special from an architecture perspective. And so let's tag this, let's add a label. I don't know what it is but something that allows for discoverability of the story of how this application became what it is today because anything else I worry will go out of date almost instantly. But this pull request is true fundamentally in that same way that we say commit messages should capture as much of that detail. So I did do that writing for the pull requests/the commit message. And I wonder if maybe that's the best artifact for this moment but then the question of surfacing it and making it discoverable because otherwise, it's just lost in the sea of other pull requests. So I don't know. But I do like the slight push back that you're giving me here of like, yeah, but what if you did something though? And I'm like, yeah, that's fair. I should probably do something. STEPH: Being able to pin those specific PRs that have significant architecture changes sounds really novel, but I'm going to take this opportunity for me to be lazy. And if I'm joining a project, I don't want to read through what has happened. I just want to know what's true now. And if I go back and look at those PRs, I won't know if all of that is still relevant and how it's changed. So it sounds neat from telling the story of how an application has evolved. I like that sort of developer lens, and what are the things that we have tried and then changed over the years? But from I am onboarding to this application, I just want to know what's true today? What are the things that you want me to follow? What are the patterns that are going to be really helpful for me to look at? And so then, I don't know if I would use it in that context. And this may be one of those areas where I'm feeling overly skittish in response to the number of things that you said and the use of inheritance. Because I have felt so much pain of where I'm going up the tree to figure out what the heck is happening in the world and then to understand all of those pieces, and then swimming all the way back down to the class that I'm actually working in. So it could just be past experiences that are now influencing how I want to document or work with inheritance. It probably is. [chuckles] That's probably a big factor of it. It doesn't mean I disagree with it because those painful experiences are meaningful. [chuckles] CHRIS: Yeah. I think the foundational thing...I tried to start this with the context of like; I did a thing. This is another example of good idea, terrible idea; my favorite segment on The Bike Shed. I stand by it. I think it was useful. It does use things that we have traditionally moved away from. I say we because, again, I think we have a shared approach to development at this point. But I think it's worth it. I hear everything that you're saying about the documentation, but I've been burned by that so many times where the documentation is like, here's what's true now. And you're like, no, there isn't even a class called that anymore, and no less does it work that way. And so, my inclination is not to go that way. The solution that I have in mind is when someone is onboarding into the application, I don't expect there to be documentation and other things that I can hand them so that they can run. I expect to sit down with them and work with them. I'm going to pair with people when they join a team for a long time. There's a period where that's true, I think, and then you get to a certain size of an organization, and you're onboarding enough people regularly enough that that's a thing that you should get better at. But for I think a surprisingly long time, my answer I'm more than happy for it to be, yeah, we're bringing someone new into the team. Let's sit down with them. Let's spend the time. Let's tell them what's true because I know currently, and I can give them an up-to-date version of that. And ideally, as part of that, then update the static documentation, the repo, the README, the other things based on the conversation that we have and recognize oh, that that link is very out of date. Let me change that one real quick. But I'm not expecting to have comprehensive documentation for that. I'm expecting to use real human interaction to fill that gap. STEPH: Yeah, I really like that you're also calling out how fallible documentation is and how it has misled us so many times. I also love what you highlighted where when somebody new is joining the team, we are more than often going to sit with them and then explore the app together. And it just made me revisit that phrase that you used earlier about the just-in-time education. Because for this command object, you may join the project and not need to interact with this design pattern for your first couple of weeks, first couple months, who knows? So then it comes back to the idea of how when someone is in the space of where using a command object feels like the right approach, then how do we introduce them to this pattern and then make sure that they have the tools that they need? And if someone is accessible to then sit down and go with them, that's great. But if someone is not accessible, then I still want them to have at least a few of the resources that they need to dive into some of the more complex things that are being included. So, yeah, it's a tricky one. I like this thought experiment. CHRIS: But yeah, overall, I'm happy with it for now. I'm hopeful it will work out for us moving forward, and I'm hopeful that it will also be a sufficiently discoverable or teachable thing within the application. But again, I will certainly report back and see how that one plays out for us. But yeah, that's what's up in my world. What else is going on in your world? STEPH: Something else that's up in my world is I have pulled in a tool that I've used in the past, and I really like it. So I'd really like to talk about it here for a bit because I just find it so useful. And now that I've added it to this new project, it's just really top of mind for me. So I found that when working on a project, there are often times where I want to run something right after a deploy has happened, and I want that to be automated. I can do it manually. I can hop in, but then perhaps if you're deploying across many environments or many systems, you don't want to have to do all that manual work, or you also just want the convenience of you can set it and forget it. And that way, you know something's going to happen. So perhaps it's something where you want to change some data, or if you want to enable a feature flag, then this is really helpful. So the gem I've been using for this is called afterparty, where you can write automated deploy tasks that essentially behave very similar to migrations. So you can write a Rake task. It has a timestamp. You can implement the logic that you want to be run right after your code has deployed, and then afterparty itself, we'll check the timestamp. It will see if it has been run. If it's already been run, it won't run it again. Or if you like, you can set it up so that way, you can tell after_party to say, "Hey, after every deploy, I want you to run this particular task," but it's such a nice improvement to the workflow. And the other thing that I really like about this that I feel is a bit contentious is separating changing data outside of migrations. So I am a big fan of migrations are focused on changing your schema itself. But if there's actual data that you need to change, I really like when that is separated outside of the migration. There are definitely times that I understand it's really nice to just do it all at once, and it's easier. But anytime it starts to get even a little complex, I immediately want to write tests for it. And I can't test my migration. But if I'm changing some meaningful data on production, I want tests to back it up to make sure that I'm scoping correctly, that the outcome is exactly what I expect. It also makes it easier for other people to review. And after_party gives me that functionality so then I can have my migration. But then I'm like, oh yeah, but I still want to automate changing this data because that's often one of the complaints that I hear from people when I do ask them to separate into a Rake task, changing the data. They're like, "But I don't want to have to then follow up and then run this task later." And I'm like, that's cool. Afterparty has you, and you can automate it and not worry about it. So afterparty has been one of my favorite gems to add to applications. CHRIS: That's interesting. There's a bunch of layers to everything that you just said. I think I've worked with after_party on a project. I think we were working together on that project, if I'm remembering correctly. I have no bad memories of it, which given the nature of the tool, makes me think it did its job very well because its whole point is just like, oh cool, now you can just do this thing, and you don't even really have to think about it. Because there are plenty of other times where I've had to orchestrate or do a deploy. And then I SSH tunnel into production, which is a bad idea, and then I'm running Rake tasks manually. And so, I think the fact that I don't have any pointed memories of this is a really good sign for a tool like this. So that's a weird vote in its corner for me. You did say something that was interesting that I want to poke at a tiny bit which was you can't test migrations, and I think that's true. Like, I don't know of any way. And it feels like a thing that is sort of fundamentally deeply true. But I do wonder, is there any gem out there? Has anyone done a weird science experiment to figure out like, I would actually really like to be able to test my migrations? So I think the idea of having to pull data change out of migrations for the reasons that you said totally makes sense. But there are often times where I want to convert from non-nullable to nullable. And in the process, I want to backfill with a given value or something to that effect. And I like to encapsulate that altogether such that if it fails or succeeds, it's transactionally consistent. And I do wonder, could I wrap a test around that? I don't know of a way, and I think it may actually be the Rails testing infrastructure is just like no, we prepare your schema for you in the background, so it's just up to date. And therefore, you don't even have a way to be in a state where the migration hasn't run. But it's an intriguing one. STEPH: Yeah, that's probably a hard absolute that I said where you can't test it, and I'm sure there is a way to test it. How friendly or how easy that is to do, I'm really not sure of. It also feels like one of those areas where it feels like I'm testing this other service that I should trust fully, so then I'm not necessarily testing the migration itself. I'm testing some logic that I've added inside of the migration where I'm changing some data. And the example that you provided is perfect because that's one of those that I'm inclined to include in a migration. It's more like where we want specific users who have this value or in this category. And then, we want to migrate them from this data to the other data. And when we start getting complicated in our migrations, that's when I'm like, this is a bit much, and I'd really like a test that documents that we're doing this correctly. That's where I get squeamish about having data changes in migrations. But you do raise a good point. I don't know; I've never tried to test one. I've just always reached for this other approach, but that is more the pain point of if I could test this data change inside of migration, then that would work for me. That would solve my problem. CHRIS: I wonder if an alternative approach would be to just introduce an object or a class that does this work. So like a command object as it were, to do a call back to earlier in the episode, that does that data transformation because it's exactly what you're describing, for this subset of users do this. But if they're in this state, then do these things and create two new records for any user like this. That sort of stuff is really complicated. Definitely want to have some tests around it. But you're talking about a gem that allows you to extract it into a Rake task-like situation. But I wonder, could we just have a class for that? And I used to be a big believer in your migration should live forever, and they should always be runnable from the beginning of time. I've given up on that belief. That's one of the things that I've been like; I don't know. It turns out I've never done that. It's not an important thing. Just DB schema load is going to be fine most of the time. It's great for the past ten migrations to be around just to tell a little bit of a story. But I'm not tied to migrations being runnable forever. So the idea of you introduce this class, it encapsulates that data transformation. You can test it because it's its own thing. It will still be run within the context of the transaction of the migration. And then you throw it away down the road along with the migration, and you do that migration roll-up thing. It's just a different thought there, although I do like the...well, I guess that would also run automatically, but that runs as part of the deploy as opposed to after the deploy, which is meaningfully different than what after_party does because there might be one of these migrations that takes a long, long time to run because you've got a ton of data. And you want to decouple it from the true deploy release sequence that happens and the time limits that are there. So I think I've now talked myself in three circles, and I'm going to stop. STEPH: I like how you highlighted that part where it does decouple you from the deploy process where it's still automated; it runs afterwards. But say if it's something that doesn't need to hold up the deploy, you don't need to wait for this data to be migrated before the deploy can go out. Then that's a nice separation because then it can happen afterwards. Or if you do need it to happen part of the deploy, yeah, there's lots of interesting bits there. I feel like you and I could talk about it for a while. But we have a listener question that I'm really excited for us to talk about. So I'm going to hard pivot over to our listener question. This question comes from Jonathan. And Jonathan wrote in, "Hey, gang, longtime listener, first-time emailer. I've heard you reference retrospectives a few times as part of your normal development practice. In my limited experience with them, I often find retrospectives don't feel productive because team members are reluctant to raise issues without seeming critical or blaming another team member. I would love to hear you describe how you typically run retrospectives to foster open discussion and make it a productive use of time. Bonus points," oh, I love bonus points "if either of you have experienced rescuing an existing team that was not having productive retrospectives. P.S. Thank you for ongoing participation in the Ruby and Rails communities. I look forward to seeing a new episode pop into my podcatcher each week." All right, retrospectives. I love this question because I've definitely been part of teams that are really struggling to have a productive retro. So I think it would be helpful, as Jonathan highlighted, to go ahead and share how thoughtbot runs a retro. And then I'd also love to touch on some of the areas where I have seen teams really struggle to have a productive retro. So with the thoughtbot format, there are really two questions that we focus on. The first question is, what went well? And this starts the meeting on a positive note, which can help people get engaged before then we move on to heavier topics like concerns and issues. When we run a retro, we ask each person these two questions. So that first question, we go around to the room, and we say, "Hey, what went well for your week or for your last two weeks?" And then we document all of those positive things that people say. The next question is, "What concerns do you have, or what are you worried about?"And the goal here is to highlight issues early, which then gives us the chance to address them as they come up rather than waiting till an issue has grown out of control. And it's usually during the concerns portion that I often see retrospectives fall apart. The reason for that is hearing someone describing a concern is often something that can stir up a lot of emotions. And I know for me, it certainly triggers my instinct to where I really want to dive into that issue, and then I want to solve it. But by reacting to a specific issue and then trying to solve that issue, I'm interrupting that retrospective flow to then focus on that issue. And we may not get to a bunch of other important issues that people had. So that's often where I see retrospectives fall apart. And the way to fix that is to then have the team consensus that hey, this is a space where everybody gets to air concern. We're going to go around the room, so everybody has a chance to speak. We're going to document it, but then we're going to move on and then come back to this later. So when do we talk about concerns? So once everybody's had a chance to share their concern and that's been documented, during that process, you're often upvoting other concerns. So someone may bring up a concern that I also have as well. So when it's my turn to speak, I'll say, "I'd like to plus-one that particular concern," and then maybe add my own or just plus-one some of the others. So then, by the time that everybody's had a chance to speak, you already have an idea on…whoever's taking notes or if it's being ideally shared so the whole team can see. You can already see the concerns that most of the team is identifying with or that are the more popular concerns. So then, as a team, you can say, "Hey, we're going to focus on the top two concerns because that's really the amount of time that we have," and that way, we're focusing on concerns that impact the majority of the team. So at that point, then we can start talking about those specific issues and how we'd like to address them. And then out of that conversation is then the next part of the retro format, our action items. And then action items are where we can capture the things that we would like to try during our next iteration of work until our next retro. This is our experiment area. So then we can say, "Yes, we'd like to try something different, or we'd really like to monitor how this goes." And then one other fun thing that I typically include in retros are housekeeping. So then we can talk about time off, team celebratory events, anything like that that's helpful to highlight to the team. That's a quick overview of how typically I myself run a retro. Chris, do you have anything you'd like to add or anything that I've missed? CHRIS: No. I think that that mirrors pretty well the best retros that I've been a part of. There are a couple of things that I think I would add or emphasize in that. So one is foundationally, with a retro, what are we doing? What's the goal? And the goal with a retro is to identify and evolve our process. So identify where there are any bottlenecks or things that aren't working, and then ideally change things over time. I've been on many teams where just the same issues get brought up over and over in retro, and nothing changes. And that will just completely deflate the team. And so, if that is happening, that's a fundamental thing that we need to fix. And I can totally understand folks being like, "Retro is awful. We just sit down and say the same things, and then nothing ever changes." If that's happening, we have to fix that at a more fundamental level. That is going to be more than a retro's worth of effort. But ideally, retro is now this structured space each week, each iteration, whatever it is where we are discussing what's going on and ideally, slowly, incrementally making the process slightly better. In my experience, it's something that I really love because I come to associate it with stuff is going to get better now. That's what retro means. If that's not the feeling you have, then I totally get why you wouldn't want retro. But I promise that that can be a reality. And then to touch on some of the particular procedural points, everything you said definitely maps. And I've found that structure works really well, but there's a lot of subtle things in that structure that I think are important to highlight. So one, going around the room and actually asking everyone individually for their thoughts, I find to be so useful because it's very easy for one or two more vocal individuals to just dominate the conversation. So particularly by starting with what went well and then also by actually going around the room and requesting "Everyone reply to this question please," even if it's just like, "Yeah, you know what? It just felt like a good week." That's an answer we'll accept but ideally, a little more structure or a little more meat to it. But I find that to be really important. Likewise, I have found that having a facilitator, so someone who is guiding the retro but not actually a part of it. They're not going to be saying what went well or what didn't go well. They are just directing the conversation and somewhat critical as you're going around and asking for concerns. They are the person whose job it is to prevent the team from starting to try and address the concern when it's first voiced. So ideally, we're just collecting the concerns. We're collecting the plus-ones so that we know which are the more prominent ones, and then we can focus on those. And I think that idea of the plus-oneing of concerns and then really focusing on the ones that have more folks that are concerned about it feels really critical in my mind. So ideally, we are a team. We're working as a team, and if one person has this gripe that they really feel deeply, but nobody else really cares about it; ideally, we find a way to help that person not feel that way. But that's not necessarily where the team collectively should put all of their energy. So yeah, that's a bunch of little pieces. Also, just as a note, we'll include these in the show notes, but there are a couple of previous episodes, so Episode 132: “What Went Well?” is a discussion between Derek and Sage, previous hosts of the show, talking about retros. Episode 172: “What I Believe About Software” was the first guest visit by a certain Steph Viccari. And so that is a wonderful episode in which we dug into retro because it's one of our favorite topics. Also, Episode 299: “Is Agile Over?” We definitely touched on...that was a pretty recent one, but we touched on retro. Then there's also a video on Upcase called “Running a Retrospective” that basically describes exactly this process and shows actually an example retro and running through it. So there are lots of other things that we can point out here. But again, I think fundamentally, what are we doing, and how are we doing it? If we can answer those questions well, retro is going to be great. If not, it's probably not going to be that great. STEPH: I appreciate you calling out all of those important nuances because those nuances are what lead to then a retro feeling more productive. And to address Jonathan's other question around if people are feeling timid to bring up an issue because they don't want to blame anyone, then I think to address that one; specifically, you have to come to retro with a WE mindset. And I think HBO accidentally sending a test email is a really good example of that. Because in the Twitter thread, a bunch of other I presume developers were commenting and responding in support of the person that sent that out to say, "Hey, you discovered a missing safety net in the system," or the fact that it was fairly easy to make this mistake and send it out. So if you come to retro with this mindset of if a mistake was made, how can we as a team improve this so then it's less easy to make that mistake? Then you won't have the sense of we're blaming this on one person, but instead, we as a team are responsible for helping each other out. CHRIS: It's interesting to have that conversation in the context of retro because I don't necessarily think of retro in exactly this way. But there is the idea of blameless postmortems, which come out of the Google Site Reliability Engineering; I think it's a book, maybe it's a website. We can include a link regardless. But that idea of blameless postmortems of collectively as a team, this thing made it out into the world, this bug, this problem. So we need to own that as a team, and we need to have a blameless conversation around that, just talking about what happened. And there are subtleties there. And that's a nuanced idea that needs to be evolved, but that is at least some writing that exists in the world that talks specifically to that part of it. That said, I wonder if a true postmortem, so a distinct meeting just dedicated to those more pointed issues, might be more relevant, and then retro is more of a shared overall conversation. But if there are smaller versions of that, then I think using that framing could be really helpful in retro. STEPH: Yeah, I think you said that perfectly where there needs to be team ownership over all of the issues that are being discussed. And I think there is one other very tricky area to navigate with having a productive retro. And I don't know of a better way to say this. But you have a grumpy goose on your team. You have someone who doesn't like retros, and they're going to be negative, and they're going to be vocal. And that is a hard one. I have been there before. And I often approach that situation by speaking with them specifically around what are your concerns with retro? Are you willing to at least buy-in and give this new format a chance? But you essentially need them to buy in or have leadership buy-in so then they know to follow suit as well that this is a team process that we're going to improve and work on together. And if you don't like it, then that's what retro is for. So how we can make this a better, more productive meeting? But just showing up and being grumpy isn't helpful. And then helping people who have been burned by retros overcome that negative reaction to retros is something that takes time. CHRIS: Oh yeah. The grumpy goose just affects everything on the team. But definitely retro is one where I've seen that particularly pointed. I think in those cases, the best luck I've ever had is to, like you said, have a separate conversation but have the conversation at a higher level. So the question isn't about do we have retro or do we have it in this shape? The question is, do we think we are operating at our best? Do we think everything is going perfectly? And almost never will the answer be "Yeah, this is great. We have no bugs. We're moving as fast as we possibly can. Everyone is happy. No one is burnt out." And so if we get to an agreement that is like, well, yeah, sure, there are things that we could improve, then I think that's a toehold that we can then build on and say, "Okay, so how do you want to go about that? I am fine to explore a different approach than retro as a meeting to continually improving and evolving our process. I'd love to know what thoughts you have, Mr. Goose." But if they don't have an alternative, retro is the most effective structure that I've found for this continuous feedback loop around the process. I'm very happy to find an alternative, but I critically think we need something like that. And so if they're going to be pushing back on retro specifically, then I'll bump up to the higher level and say, "Okay, how do you want to be improving our process? Let's try something else, but let's make sure we are asking the question of how do we improve our process and is that succeeding?" And also, stop being so grumpy. Come on, what are you doing? STEPH: [chuckles] I recognize that approach so much because then it really gets to the heart of the purpose of retro whether it's actually called retro or how we handle it is not significant, but the fact that we together as a team can get together and discuss how to improve. That's really the important thing that we're after. And retro just happens to be the format that I use and really enjoy. But like you said, it's always open to each team's interpretation. On that note, Jonathan, I hope this quick overview of the thoughtbot retro has been helpful. And we will also include some other links that also highlight how thoughtbot runs retros and some other discussions that we've had about retrospectives. But on that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Bye. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

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Published Nov 13, 2017 Chris: Good day, world. Chris Hogan and Andrew Groat coming to you live from the MeMedia studio here at Burleigh Heads for "Get Fact Up" episode number 68 - on important marketing metrics to track. How you going, Andrew? Andrew: Good. How are you? Chris: Good, mate. So website traffic is probably the number one metric that people tend to track when they're looking at - obviously their marketing reports. And we know that being that high a level probably isn't good enough. Andrew: Yeah, traffic's not really that important. There're other things that you should be looking at. Chris: Cool. So we've got some example Google Analytics snapshots that we've got here from the Interwebs. And we wanted to just have a look over those and break some of them down. So here we have the Google Analytics snapshot of acquisitions and channels, it's real easy to find. And it's breaking down that high level traffic into multiple different channels... Andrew: The different marketing streams, yeah. So this one's eCommerce business, and straight off the bat you can see that something's wrong here, ‘cause you've got paid searches as the highest traffic. But, you need to circle a few things here, so the problem here is the bounce rate is massive. Paid search, high bounce rate, a lot of money's gone down the drain quite frankly. Chris: So let's talk about bounce rate while we're on that. So between 55% and 70% bounce rate is considered high. Anything over 70% is considered pretty much extreme. So it's time to bring that down. Andrew: So just to explain what a bounce is, it's when someone comes to your page - doesn't click on anything and then they leave. So someone that didn't interact with your page at all. Chris: And bounces can happen a lot. Especially in search and social - ah sorry, in paid search and social, because people have searched for a particular product. Andrew: They may not necessarily wanna see it. You might have put it in front of them when they don't want it. Chris: In paid search they've searched for a particular product, they've clicked on that link to that paid page and they've seen what they wanted to see - probably priced, they're shopping around, boom they're gone again. If you didn't entice them to click through to another page, then essentially they've bounced. And they could've been sitting on that page for a long time. In fact, they could've been sitting on that for hours, all day, reading all the content that you had to offer, but if they didn't click through to another page it's called a bounce. So the same thing can happen in social, right? Because... Andrew: Yeah, we say this all the time that social's people's down time. And if you're putting ads in front of them and they don't realise it, they've clicked through to an ad, they're often just gonna bail back out of that. Social traffic tends to have high bounce rate and lower engagement metrics because of that. But, it's a great branding opportunity, it's not a right off there. You just have to be showing the right sort of content, maybe not necessarily trying to get someone to buy something straight from Facebook. Chris: And then we've got on that same slide we've got their conversion rate, and 3.11 conversion rate. Conversions categorised as 2% as average, 5% is good and 10% plus is great. So they're sitting between averaging good. Now if we were going to say, for example if the client said, "Hey, while I'm getting lots of traffic on paid search, that's great, I'm gonna increase my spend." Andrew: Well I would say don't even bother. Especially when you have a little bit further down that email traffic is a 10.24% conversion rate. I would be saying do more email campaigns, 'cause that's obviously working really well. And then maybe have a look at bringing this bounce rate down, put a bit of work into that. Make some more relevant content, have a look at your page load potentially and have a look at your targeting - maybe you're showing your ads to the wrong people. Chris: There's so much you can do in eCommerce. Show that there's a sale on and that it's a limited time. For example, there's a counter there just above the "add to cart" button that says buy now or you'll miss out. For instance... Andrew: Get some more testimonials. Get some more reviews and writings and things like that. Chris: More content on that page essentially. So that is called conversion rate optimisation. Improving your page to improve conversions. If you can improve those conversions then potentially go back and invest more dollars into that paid advertising. Andrew: I would also say maybe get a heat map or a screen recording software installed on the website and actually get some hard data - hard evidence about what's going on there. It might just be as simple as there's no calls to action above the fold, it might be a real easy fix. Chris: Could be an error. Paid search - don't forget if you've got so many heaps of campaigns, that's a very high level view. You could have one campaign that's absolutely tanking because for whatever reason your products are no longer available, discontinued or something like that. Andrew: Yeah, that's right. Especially with AdWords, it could just be one keyword's just ruining your entire campaign. It's really important to be looking at those metrics as well. Chris: So let's move on to slide 7 where we've actually got a different eCommerce business where their highest traffic source is organic. Andrew: Whoa, yeah, they're doing really well. 11% conversion rate. Chris: And they're converting 11% on that organic traffic. That's really good. Essentially then we looked at paid searches, their second biggest paid channel. And they've got a 7% conversion rate there. And so therefore they're advertising campaign on AdWords needs tweaking and improving because obviously there's a good conversion rate happening in organic. There's not a lot wrong with their pages, but that conversion rate indicates to me that maybe their actual advertising campaigns wrong. Andrew: Yeah, that's what I think. Maybe they just needed to tighten up what they're targeting there. Another good thing that I've seen with this one - we've got a great ad, but they've got their revenue filled in there. So they're actually pushing data of all their sales back, which is awesome because that means they can actually measure ROI properly, so you can have a look at your AdWords page and analytics - you can see how much you spending and what you're getting back for it, then you get that ROI metric. That's awesome if you can actually get that, it's not possible for everyone. Chris: Which comes down to cost per acquisition. Andrew: That's right, so if you know that then you can scale as far as you want. Chris: So cost per acquisition is basically cost per sale. Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Chris: Instead of tracking cost per click, track cost per acquisition. If you bring that down... Andrew: Yeah, exactly. Also, here their bounce rate is incredibly low on this one. Chris: Yeah, 19.43% on organic search and 14.78% even on paid, which is just awesome. Really good. Andrew: Two other metrics I think worth mentioning here because this is so high on this one I just want to say. Under behaviour on here, you've got bounce rate, pages per session, average session duration. Pages per session is really important, that's how many - for each person that comes to your site, that's how many different pages they go on there. And if you're above 2.5% that's pretty good. Their average pages per session across all channels is 6.89%, that's great. That means people are really searching around going through everything. Chris: Yup. Andrew: Also, the session duration: 3 minutes, that's great too. If you've got above 2 minutes that's awesome. People spending a lot of time on their website. They've obviously got a lot of really good related content, a lot of good internal linking. I'd say they've got a really good interface there as well. Chris: So, on product pages you may also be interested in if they're doing blogging then potentially they've got interlinked pages. Here's the product we're talking about - go and check it out in the cart, all that sort of stuff. Andrew: They've got a great funnel, that much is obvious. So yeah, they're doing great. Chris: Slide 8, we've got a service based business, and obviously which means no eCommerce tracking on the site. And the highest channel - highest volume of traffic coming through is via organic for this one. Now, they've got a 56% bounce rate on their organic and 2.12 pages per session. Andrew: It's not bad. Chris: Yeah, that's right. Andrew: But there's room, room to improve, that's for sure... Chris: There is room for improvement. So, with bounce rate, like we said, that people are coming in and their not exactly seeing what we wanted them to see and they're leaving. But with 2.12 pages per session on organic - they kind of are finding what they are wanting to find. They're not really that eager to make an inquiry because their actual conversion rate is low, in the 2%'s, so it's an average conversion rate. Andrew: Yeah, so maybe there's a trust issue there and that's where I'd say probably maybe looking at getting some reviews, testimonials, that sort of thing - maybe having a look at the form, reducing the amount of fields in the form. Just to bring down all the barriers, make it easier for an inquiry to happen there. Chris: Really good point you've made there, Andrew, about the barriers to inquiry and completing a form. Those - Don't ask for too much information, what do you really need from people? Name, phone number, email address - that's pretty much it. Andrew: Yeah, like that's it. Even have a request to call back can be a better option than having an inquiry. Sometimes people don't feel that comfortable about filling all that information in. Chris: An optional message field is good. I think leave that one optional. So the top 3 required and an optional message field, boom. And then that could absolutely increase the conversion rate on those inquiries. Andrew: If I was to give these people any advice, though, it would be look at they're social campaigns, though here. Cause you can see there that their conversion rate is .9% on social. Bounce rate's 84%, like obviously they're sending the wrong message out there or maybe just reaching the wrong people. There's massive room for improvement there. Chris: Yeah, hard one, I'm with you on that. There's definitely some improvements that are needed. I mean, what are they sending people to this site for? Is it to consume content? They're not really clicking through to other pages on the site. It's - pages per session 1.6, time on site a minute ten. They really do need to reconsider why they're sending people there and... Andrew: Obviously sending them there for maybe promoting blogs or something like that. But then you just have to look at what they're doing next. Chris: They need to encourage and click through... Andrew: Calls to action in their blogs. Chris: Yeah, super important. Cool. Slide 9, we've got another service based business. So again organic search is the highest traffic source. Bounce rate is lower, 48%, that's great. It's good, rather. And 2.39 pages per session, which is pretty much average there. And a conversion rate of 4.84%. So, their conversion rate's obviously better than the last. And that means that their calls to action are much better and their barriers... Andrew: Mm-hmm (affirmative)... Chris: Their forms are probably better. They potentially got testimonials or some kind of - they've developed some kind of trust with the audience to encourage that inquiry. Maybe there's some sort of free offer, potentially round that... Andrew: Yeah, their funnel could just be better overall. And it might just be a type of service that people are more interested in, in general, you never really know that. Chris: Industry comes in... Andrew: That's right, yeah like some people just have a tough industry that you always have to consider. Chris: Exactly. So apart from website traffic sources we wanna focus on what's happening out there in amongst the other - I guess campaigns that we could be running. So, obviously social is probably the most popular and most common activity that people are undertaking when they're doing marketing. I think we've spoken about this before, but just to recap, what's some of the metrics people need to be tracking when they're doing social campaigns? Andrew: Okay, big thing for me is always engagement, especially the social. You wanna say that people are actually interacting with your content. Clicks through the website not always that important, 'cause you can see that they might be doing nothing when they get to the website. Most important thing is that they're having a good time on the social platform first and foremost. And then something that people don't often look at is one called "social clicks", which is a sort of like the viral effect. It's when someone's interacted with your content and then their friends doing it or maybe they've shared it to someone else. That's that sort of roll off growth effect that happens on social, that's a really important one, cause that means that the community's accepting it. It means it's getting shared around. Chris: And another really important metric that people need to be targeting - I'm sorry, monitoring when they're looking at their reports, their monthly reports, is search into results pages. So the results of their ranking of their keywords in search. Andrew: That's right. So you can look at your traffic for organic and that's great but you really wanna know where it's coming from, because you wanna know what you wanna optimise for on what you should be creating more content for. If you're not using a software for tracking your search engine results, you can go into search console and everyone should have search console. Google search console set up. You can have a look at your keyword report in there and that'll show you all the traffic that's coming in for different keywords and it will also show you the impressions for different keywords. So you can see who's seeing you for different keywords. And that at least is very important because that data's not in Google analytics anymore. Chris: It's not a complete picture because Google has wiped out a lot of the keywords that people actual typing in under a category called, "not provided", but... Andrew: It shows a lot more than Google analytics at least. Chris: Exactly. Andrew: So you get something there. Chris: Yeah. Is that all we got time for? Look I think this is a very high level view. Still, we've sorta dived in a little bit. But, with eCommerce there's so much more you could be looking at. Once you've got some of that conversions - what's happening with the conversions? Well potentially people are getting to the cart, and they're abandoning cart. So you need to look at the exit pages and what can you do there? Well you can be running automated email campaigns. You can be running remarketing campaigns on Google AdWords and social. There's lots of opportunities there. But again we said we're gonna have a high level view, and I think we've done that here so hopefully that's - I guess helpful. Anything to add, Andrew? Andrew: You know what? We could just go on forever. But I think maybe we'll do one on each specific channel, in the future, I'd think it'd be good. Chris: Yeah. Great! Well, thanks very much for your time. That was "Get Fact Up", episode 68. And you're here with Andrew Groat and Chris Hogan from MeMedia, here at the Burleigh Heads Studio's on the Gold Coast. Cheers.

 As Pittsburgh prepares to mark one year since the attack on the Tree of Life synagogue, we invited Maggie Feinstein of the 10.27 Healing Partnership to discuss the new center’s mission and how Squirrel Hill has healed over time.Also in this episode, we talk about fear-based marketing, future modes of journalism with a guest who has a special connection to the podcast, and hear a track from a promising singer from Sewickley.----more----This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.The full transcript to this episode is here:Logan: You are listening to The P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to The Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story.Dan: Hey, everyone. We're back. I'm Dan Stefano, host of The P100 Podcast. I'm here with Paul Furiga.Paul: Dan, how are you, my friend?Dan: And our other co-host, Logan Armstrong.Logan: How's it going, Dan?Dan: All right. Yeah, great to have you guys here, and we're happy for everybody to be listening today because it's a special episode. We're coming up to the one-year commemoration of the attack on the Tree of Life Synagogue in our Squirrel Hill neighborhood here. And there's a lot of interesting things going on this time of year. It's been a year of healing, and that's a highlight of the interview we're going to have this week. We're pretty happy to have that. Paul, what are your thoughts?Paul: I'm really looking forward to hearing from Maggie Feinstein, who's now leading the healing center. As you said, this one-year mark is really important for the community. Not just here in Pittsburgh, but beyond as well.Dan: That's right. That's Maggie Feinstein, the director of the 10.27 Healing Partnership and we're really happy to have her today. Also, we'll be talking with Erin Hogan. She's a fellow WordWriter and we'll be talking about fear-based PSA. It's kind of based on a blog she recently wrote. After that, we'll hear from Chris Schroder, the founder of The 100 Companies.Paul: The 100 Companies, right.Dan: Paul, you've met him. You have a pretty deep professional relationship.Paul: We do. And I think folks will enjoy the interview, three ex-journalists sitting around the table commiserating about journalism's past and talking about the future.Dan: Right? Yeah. That's always a lot of fun. And then we'll follow up with a Pittsburgh polyphony and Logan, you have somebody pretty exciting we're going to be talking to, correct?Logan: Yes, I do. We're going to be talking about a young neo soul artist coming out of the city. So I'm excited to talk about that.Dan: Right, yeah we're going to be really happy to hear from, well, we're not going to hear from her I guess, but we'll hear from her in her recording from one of her singles and we're really happy to hear that, and let's get to it.Dan: Okay, everybody. As we mentioned in the introduction, we are nearing the one year mark of the attack on the Tree of Life Synagogue. With us is Maggie Feinstein. She's the director of the newly named 10.27 Healing Partnership. 10.27 that being a reference to the date of the attack in which 11 worshipers were killed on a Saturday morning going to synagogue. It was an act of hate, but our city has responded with a lot of acts of love, including programs like this. So thank you for taking the time to be with us here Maggie.Maggie: Thanks for having me here.Dan: Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what you do with the healing center?Maggie: Absolutely. Thank you very much. My background is as a mental health clinician. I'm an LPC, a master's level clinician, and for the last 10 years or so, my work has really been around what we call brief interventions, working with medical doctors and working in medical environments and providing support to the doctors as well as to the patients when they come in for visits.Dan: Are you from Pittsburgh?Maggie: I'm from Pittsburgh. I grew up in Squirrel Hill. Yes.Dan: Oh wow.Maggie: I still live there and I'm currently raising my kids there.Dan: Being from there, can you tell us what that morning was like that Saturday?Maggie: Absolutely. I think that being from there – it is a very familiar place and it is actually somewhere where I've walked all those streets for many, many years. But that morning I was out for a run with a friend and usually we run through the park, but that morning because it was raining, we had run up and we weren't really paying attention. We ended up on Wilkins and we were running up Wilkins and remarked, Oh my gosh, we keep seeing people we know because that's sort of Squirrel Hill for you, people travel the same routes. And so people kept waving out the windows. So it was a morning unfortunately that I found myself outside of there, but was just about 20 minutes earlier and I was reminded of community really, which is what growing up in Squirrel Hill feels like, that it was hard to run down the street without having to stop and talk to lots of people. Which is a wonderful thing, though on that morning it did feel a little bit scary.Dan: That was an incredible day for all the wrong reasons. Can you tell us a little bit about the healing center then? When we talked previously, you'd mentioned being part of that community and now it's going to be a pretty integral piece I think.Maggie: So being from the neighborhood, it was this opportunity to try and serve the community that's been so great to me. And so after the shooting happened on October 27 there was a lot of amazing community activity going on, which I wasn't part of, but I'm really inspired by the community partners that stepped up to the plate. In Pittsburgh we have had such wonderful cooperation between the congregations, the nonprofits like the Jewish Community Center, Jewish Family and Community Services and the Jewish Federation. And so between the synagogues, those three major institutions as well as the Center for Victims, which is always ready and able to respond to community mental health needs, there was just this really amazing partnership that happened and then being able to eventually incorporate the voices of the victims and the survivors.Maggie: They all together created the 10.27 Healing Partnership. So I'm the director of it, but the truth was that it was the efforts that happened week in, week out afterwards of people really caring and people wanting to have their voices heard when it comes to what community recovery looks like since it was a community trauma.Dan: Right. And there is a level of a federal involvement with this?Maggie: Yes. And so immediately in the aftermath the federal government came, FBI, as well as the Office of Victims of Crime have offered a ton of support. They have people who were able to come in, help our community, help that group of people who were gathering to decide what to do next, help guide them through the process of creating what is generically known as a resiliency center. And those federal groups really were able to give perspective on how do we move forward, how do we gather, how do we anticipate what the community needs might look like, and then respond to those needs.Dan: Right.Logan: And so the, the healing centers recently opened, it opened on October 1st, correct?Maggie: It opened on October 2nd, yes.Logan: October 2nd, okay. And so it's been opened recently. Have you had a chance to gauge how they're responding to it now that it's open?Maggie: I think that opening our doors was a really awesome opportunity because what we say when people are feeling this sense of loss is that there's no wrong door and that the more doors that are open to people, the better. But I also think that before we opened our doors on October 2nd, a lot of people were accessing services through the Center for Victims or through JFCS. And so what we have seen in the last two weeks is that a lot of people are saying this is a relief to know this is here. It's good to know there's a door.Maggie: It doesn't mean that people were sitting and waiting to go just there because there are other places. But what a lot of people say is that I do have a therapist or I've been part of a support group and then there's just some days that feel really hard. And so knowing that I could come in here on those days that just feel hard to be with people, to gather, to maybe get some emotional support or maybe to practice some self-guided relaxation. People are saying, Oh that's really nice to know that's there.Logan: And going off that, I read that you guys actually have someone that will come to greet you when you get there and as you said, some days you're just feeling vulnerable or sad. How do you feel the importance of that is, just kind of having someone there to greet you and bring you in when you're going to the healing center?Maggie: I think it's so important. I think, I mean one functionally for the JCC, for people who are not members of the JCC, because that's where we are housed, we're using space within the JCC. For people who aren't members, it's helpful because they don't know their way around. But more importantly as humans it's nice to connect to people. And one of the things we know is that with trauma we kind of disconnect, we pull away. And so I think the earlier that people can connect and feel like somebody cares and feel like they're not alone, the better it is. And so the greeter role is a really important one where someone can come to the door and walk you up, make sure you have what you need and make sure you're comfortable.Dan: What do you see as a therapist, say the difference between an individual trauma and then traumas that might affect an entire community? I mean, there might be a guy who just works down the street who really, maybe he's not a Jewish person, but this tragedy, I mean, could greatly affect them.Maggie: Absolutely. And I think that's a really important point. And I think it's a good question because I've thought a lot about what is different than when something terrible happens to me and something terrible happens to the bigger community. And I think that there is a challenge because there are so many levels of grieving that can happen when there's a tragedy within the community and all of those different levels of grieving mean that people are hitting it at different moments and people are feeling different things. And so there's sort of these waves, but people aren't necessarily on the same wave as other people. And so that's one of the reasons that the federal government has thought through this, thought of having these resiliency centers and in Pittsburgh our resiliency center is the 10.27 Healing Partnership.Maggie: But to have these resiliency centers was thought out by Congress a long time ago after 9/11 when they realized that as communities continue to experience the losses that happened during a communal trauma, that it's very, the needs change and the needs need to be attended to. We have to keep ourselves aware of them. And one of the things that I would say is that the needs will evolve over time, that just like grief and like other experiences, that because it's a communal trauma, we want to evolve with the community's needs. We don't stay stuck. So the space that we created is meant to be as flexible as possible, but equally the services will be driven primarily by the people who come in and desire them. And the hope with that is that we can respond to what people are looking for rather than what I, with my mental health degree, believe people might be looking for because that's a lot less important than what it is that people are seeking.Dan: Maybe stepping outside of your professional role and just thinking of yourself as a Squirrel Hill resident. After this last year here, what do you see from the community and how do you see that either it has changed, good, bad, where people, where their heads might be and just where people are, how it feels there right now.Maggie: I think that this a high holiday season, Yom Kippur that just passed felt very different for most people. And I think that like most other grieving emotions, there's good and bad, they're complicated, they don't feel just one way. And the good part, I heard a lot of people say how relieving it was to go to synagogue this year and be around old friends, people that we haven't seen for a while and to feel that sense of connectedness. Like I was saying, that's one of the more important things. But for a number of the congregations there was also a sense of being displaced or the absence of the people who had been such wonderful community leaders in their congregations. And so I think that there is a lot of complicated emotions.Maggie: There's a lot of new relationships. There's also deepening of old relationships that are beautiful and wonderful to see and that people have connected not just within the Squirrel Hill community but within Greater Pittsburgh, like you were saying, there's a lot of people who've been affected from outside of Squirrel Hill of course, and a lot of them have come in to reconnect with old friends, to reconnect with community.Maggie: And so those are the moments that feel, we call that the mental health side, we call that the post traumatic growth. Those are opportunities where when something has been broken, there can be a new growth that comes out of it. But that at the same time there's just a big sense of loss. Like I was saying earlier with my morning that day when I came through Wilkins and it's just a small street, anybody from another city wouldn't consider it a major thoroughfare. But it is really hard to have the feeling of the change of the neighborhood with that building currently not being able to be occupied.Dan: What can you tell us with October 27th coming up here, what types of activities or events are going to be going on either at the center or just within the community?Maggie: There has been an effort by that same group of people that I'd mentioned earlier who helped to create the 10.27 Healing Partnership to create community events that happened on 10.27 this year, 10 27 2019. And that was something we learned from other communities was that it had to be owned by the community. And that there has to be something for people to do because there's often a lot of times where we have energy we want to give. So together that group's come up with the motto for the day is remember, repair, together. And those are lessons we've learned from other places. So there'll be community service, there's community service throughout the city. There's ways that people can sign up for slots, but there's also an encouragement that communities can gather on their own and create their own community service. It doesn't just have to be through organized community service.Maggie: And then also there'll be Torah study, which is really important in the Jewish tradition in terms of honoring people after death. And so the Torah study will be happening and there is a communal gathering at Soldiers and Sailors in the evening and throughout the day there'll be activities going on at the 10.27 Healing Partnership at the JCC, we'll be having for people who just don't really know what else they want to do that day. They're welcome to come and gather in community, sit together. The Highmark Caring Place will be there doing activities that are really geared towards being present with ourselves, being able to honor lives that were lost and also being able to support each other in this hard time.Dan: Right. And I'm not sure if we mentioned it earlier, but the Healing Partnership that's located, is that on Murray Avenue at the JCC?Maggie: Yeah, so the JCC sits at Forbes and Murray and Darlington.Dan: Okay, right.Maggie: It takes over that whole block. But yeah, so in Squirrel Hill, Forbes and Murray, and there will not be regularly scheduled activities that Sunday at the JCC. And the only real purpose for coming there will be people who want to gather in community. There won't be exercising or basketball or any of those other things that day.Dan: Right. Where can we find you online?Maggie: So the address is www.1027healingpartnership.org. And on the website we really tried to promote a lot of ways that people can do their own learning, exploration. Even some things that we can do on our own with apps and podcasts and things that people can do at home.Dan: Well Maggie, thank you so much for coming here and thank you so much for what you do in the community. We really appreciate you being here today.Maggie: Thank you so much for having me and thank you for highlighting the important things going on in Pittsburgh.Dan: Absolutely.Dan: All right, we're here with Erin Hogan, she's an account supervisor here at Word Write. And we wanted to talk with Erin here about one of her blogs that she just wrote for our storytellers blog. The title is fear based marketing campaigns are not always the right approach. A really interesting topic. It kind of sparked out of a conversation that we were having in the office and Erin, thanks for being with us and can you tell us a little bit about the blog?Erin: Yeah, thanks for having me. So really, this stemmed from a conversation I actually had with my husband. He sent me this video and asked for my opinion on it. I was, just had to be honest that I really didn't like it.Dan: Okay...Erin: I think it's from a-Dan: You didn't like the video. What's the video?Erin: So the Sandy Hook Promise PSA. It's basically this really dark play on a back to school supplies commercial. So it starts out with kids showing their folders and their backpacks and their skateboard and just general things that people and parents purchase their kids to go to school for the new year. And then it just starts to take a turn. You kind of see some shuffling happening in the background, and you start to notice that there's something happening at this school.Dan: There's an active shooter.Erin: There's an active shooter. And that's really what the video is supposed to get across, supposed to. The goal of this campaign is to show people, it's to encourage knowing the signs of gun violence before they happen. But the thing that really got me going with this video is that you're encouraging to know the signs about gun violence before they happen, when depicting an act of gun violence. That just seems to me counterintuitive to what they're trying to convey. Just in general, the whole concept of my blog, getting back to the point of this segment is fear based approach versus a positive tone of an ad. How do you, what's the best way to tell a story? I mean we're at WordWrite all about storytelling, finding the best way to tell a business story. But even in a general cause related marketing effort, what's the best way to tell a story?Dan: In advocacy, right.Erin: Right. And based on the evidence that I've found in the research, it really doesn't work. So sure everybody remembers the anti-drug PSAs in the ‘80s and ‘90s and 2000 that were funded by the Partnership for a Drug Free America. There was the your brain on drugs. That one was a big, everybody remembers that one. It was the guy in the kitchen saying this is your brain and he shows an egg. And then he hits it into a cast iron pan and says, this is your brain on drugs. And it's supposed to say your brain's fried on drugs. And basically over the years they had a bunch of variations, that it was basically saying if you do drugs, your parents won't approve. Well when was the last time a 14, 15 year old kid listened to what their parents do.Erin: They didn't work and in fact it caused the adverse effect. It encouraged kids to think that drugs were cool. There was something, it was the anti, going against my parents. Whereas they took a shift, a more encouraging shift in the mid 2000s, many of the younger generations will remember this, the above the influence campaigns. Which basically, instead of showing imagery of kids defying their parents and the consequences of their actions, it took a more positive tone, basically showing the positive ramifications of making an informed decision on their own and having the independence and the courage to say no without any oversight from their parents. Those actually performed far better.Erin: So it begs the question to me for a PSA like the Sandy Hook Promise PSA. Would it have had a more resounding impact or a better impact on the viewers if it showed the positives of stopping gun violence versus the negatives of what happens after gun violence occurs?Dan: One thing I think that's important that we'd be remiss if we didn't add here is that the ad itself within, I think a couple of days of it, I think had actually earned millions of dollars or a great sum for Sandy Hook Promise. So for that group, so-Erin: Donated ad spend.Dan: Donated ad, yeah there we go.Erin: Or ad, media placements.Dan: This is why we have Erin on because she can say the right words.Erin: I'm here all night.Dan: Exactly, this is going to be one of two hours now with Erin. No, but it did have an impact. It did, it did, it was successful. And I think something important right now that we have to think of is, do we have to be provocative today? Is that how you get people's attention or is there a way to balance that? Logan, you want to jump in?Logan: Yeah, sure. I think also this is just a microcosm of society at large where we've become less of, even in the media where 20 years ago it counted on who was reporting the right news at the right time and now it's become who's reporting it first, whether or not they have to issue corrections later or not. And so I think in that same kind of click-baity kind of way that that society on, especially on the internet has become, I think that this PSA may have fallen victim to that. And as you said, whether or not that was the right move is kind of debatable, but I think this is a small part of a society's directional move at large.Erin: Yeah, I mean certainly you have to cut through the clutter. No one would dismiss that. Especially any talented marketer. I'm also not insinuating or advocating for doing nothing. Doing nothing is never an answer either-Dan: Right.Erin: They certainly have an admirable cause that they're going after here. And obviously the genesis of the Sandy Hook Promise Organization, it comes out of, it was birthed from a really horrible, horrible tragedy in United States history. But in terms of the approach and just looking at it from a technical messaging standpoint that we as marketers do, I'm just not sure it fully executed what it’s intention initially was.Dan: All right. Well Erin, you definitely gave us a lot to think about here. We thank you for coming on and I think for sure we'll be seeing, as long as we have television, as long as we have advertising, we're going to see similar ads like this, so we'll be sure to keep our eyes on it and follow those trends. So thanks a lot.Erin: Yeah, thanks for having me. Bye guys.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your capital S story.Paul: We mark an anniversary with this episode of the P100 podcast, the audio companion to the Pittsburgh 100, and that is the second anniversary of the Pittsburgh 100 e-zine. Our podcast is a little bit younger here but we're pleased to have with us in the studio for this segment, Chris Schroder, who is the founder of The 100 Companies. Say hello there Chris.Chris: Good morning Pittsburgh.Paul: The Pittsburgh 100 and this podcast are one of more than 20 affiliated publications in The 100 Companies network. Chris is in town for a few days, visiting, working with us on a few things. So we thought it'd be a great opportunity to give the listeners a little bit of background on why we do the 100, why we do this podcast. And since Dan and I are both former journalists and so is Chris, to have one of those, “didn't journalism used to be great and now where the hell is it going”, sort of a conversation.Dan: Was it ever great?Paul: Dan, your experience might be different than mine.Dan: I wasn't in the Woodward Bernstein era, so I don't know.Paul: I had a tee shirt when I got into journalism, which was during that era. The tee-shirt said "If your mother loves you, if your mother says she loves you, check it out".Chris: Trust, but verify.Paul: That's right. That's right. So Chris, tell us a little bit about your background.Chris: My blood is full of ink. I was a high school newspaper editor, college newspaper editor, came up in the Watergate era, graduated from high school when Nixon was resigning and then worked for six daily newspapers, and then started my own neighborhood newspapers in Atlanta. And we built that up to about a hundred thousand circulation, had about three different titles. About 10 years ago I started working with some journalists in the Atlanta area who worked for the daily newspaper and they were unfortunately being downsized out of the daily paper.Paul: A common refrain.Chris: Yes, and so they, I helped them start a publication there that had a newsletter, website and social media platform. So I helped them start that. I'd developed a revenue model for them. It's doing great 10 years later. But I noticed three or four years in that people were not clicking on the read more link in the stories as much as they used to in the newsletter. They were seeming to be fine with a shorter excerpt. So I tried to come up with a newsletter where you did not have to click through, where everything was contained in the newsletter itself and so we started designing that, realized that might be about a hundred words. So we said, why don't we call it the Atlanta 100, every article be exactly 100 words, every video be exactly a hundred seconds. And we went to market, people really enjoyed it.Chris: And later I talked to a conference of PR owners, about 150 owners in the room, and was telling them the history of content marketing all the way through the rise of newspapers and the fall of newspapers and ended with a journalism project on the Atlanta 100. And at the end of it, 12 owners came up and gave me their business cards and said I'd like to start a 100 in my city. So that thus began the expansion into a network of The 100 Companies.Paul: So Chris, something that Dan and I get a question about quite often, and really Dan is the editorial director here, having come to us directly from journalism. Where do the 100 publications and podcasts like this sit on the journalistic scale? I mean we joked about Woodward and Bernstein, obviously we're not an investigative journalism enterprise. How would you describe what we do?Chris: Well, we are part of what I see as the new emerging marketplace in media where we've had a sort of disassembling over the last few years of the traditional media marketplace. So 1,800 newspapers have closed in the last 18 years. Tens of thousands of journalists have been let go to be put into other jobs or find other careers. We've had a lot of changes, a lot of new emerging media coming up digitally. There's a lot of interest of course in the last 20 years in social media, but now we're finding the problems in that with Facebook and other issues of privacy.Chris: So I think what we are is a part of the solution and part of the experimentation that we will in another five years start to see a lot of clarity as people start to organize and merge. And there will be some platforms that emerge and some that fall away as we're seeing now with the larger level of some of the streaming, a lot of organization going on with HBO and AT&T and Comcast and different people trying to organize who's going to win. There'll probably be three or four winners in the streaming of video. Disney's getting into it, so many other people are. But there's going to be a consolidation there. Eventually, there'll be a consolidation of, as there was in the beginning of traditional newspapers in America in the 1700s, there will be eventually a settling of the industry and we certainly expect the 100 platform to be one of the winners.Paul: So gentlemen, last question, biggest question. What is the future of journalism?Dan: Well, if I could jump into it first here. Obviously the 100 gives us again, just a small little piece of the media landscape here in Pittsburgh. We're not going to be, we're never going to be the PG. We're not that. And it's not what we're trying to be. But I see a lot of former journalists in Pittsburgh that have found websites that maybe five, 10 years ago people would've considered blogs and blogs maybe had a stigma compared to them. But now we're seeing really sharp good people with news sense.Paul: Yes.Dan: They understand what is newsworthy.Paul: Storytellers.Dan: They're good writers, they're storytellers and they're finding these outlets that people are starting to gravitate to. Not long ago we had Rossliynne Culgan of The Incline on. They're doing a lot of great work there. Between say Next Pittsburgh, we see good stuff from out of them. There are a lot of good small outlets that journalists are flocking to after they either lose their job or they just realize that, I hate it, there's not much of a route forward in the newspapers. So there's always going to be room for people that know how to write, I feel like.Paul: Yes. And tell stories and write information. Chris.Chris: I think storytelling is very primal. That's how we all learned to hear, store and retrieve information as children. And it goes back millennia, the storytelling tradition. So I think it's very important to do it in as few as a hundred words or as many as 10,000 words. I'd like to look at journalism on a continuum and I think what's going to happen, I like to think that it's all sort of a pendulum. And that while in the last five to 10 years, our attention spans have gotten much shorter, I think we're poised and ready for what I think might be one day a pendulum swing by a future generation who, attention spans will start to push to be much longer and they'll appreciate the longer read and the longer write. And I think that could happen. Right now we're still in the throws of people just getting very short morsels of information. Twitter did expand from 140 to 280 characters, but I think we're going to see two or three years from now, people start to settle in and realize that morsels are good, but it still leaves them hungry.Paul: Well, Chris, really appreciate the perspective. Thanks for being here in Pittsburgh and joining us for this segment on the podcast today. We will have to have you back at some time in the future and see how some of your predictions and Dan's have meted out.Chris: Well, you all are doing great work. You're one of the leaders of our national network, and so thank you for the work you're doing and the innovations you're doing with this podcast and other things. Keep up the great work.Paul: Thank you, Chris.Dan: Thanks, Chris.Dan: Okay, we're back for another edition of our Pittsburgh polyphony series here and really enjoy this one because we get a chance to learn about some new artists that are doing some great things in the region here and Logan, this is a pretty new, interesting artist that we want to talk about here and can take us to introduction.Logan: So we're going to be talking about Sierra Sellers today. Neo soul, RMB, jazz artist in the Pittsburgh region and she's been putting out some tracks, but she's really seen some recognition in the recent past and I had the opportunity to see her at Club Cafe about a month ago and she just really brings a lot of great energy to the room. She has a great voice and her and her band really interact well and she just brings a lot of positive vibes to the audience.Dan: Yeah, that's one thing I think, you talk about the energy here and that's an important part of a performer here. As a guy, as an artist yourself, what do you think that offers whenever somebody can kind of control a crowd?Logan: Oh, it's invaluable. I mean it's the same as any other kind of entertainer, whether you're a comedian or anything else up on stage. And being a performer versus doing a performance is the difference between getting up on stage and singing or rapping or whatever you're doing, all your songs or giving an actual performance and putting on a show to the audience. So, one is vastly more memorable and more connective than the other. And being able to do that on stage is something that, if you want to be a successful artist, you're going to have to learn how to do.Dan: When you talk about Sierra, what exactly is it that she uniquely brings to the stage?Logan: Yes. So initially it's just herself. She just has kind of a bubbly personality, but she also gets the crowd to interact and she tells some stories from inspiration behind the songs or inspiration behind the instrumental or the production and talks with the band and just really kind of gets a feel for the audience and kind of feels them out and is able to work the crowd.Dan: That's awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about the track we're about to hear?Logan: Yes. So we're about to hear a track of Sierra's called Shine. It's a recent track, the leader on Spotify's playlist. They have a set of astrological sign playlists, with a pretty prominent following, and this landed her on Spotify as Libra playlist. It's collaboration with fellow Pittsburgh rapper who goes by My Favorite Color, which is a great name. But yeah, we're going to lead you out with Shine by Sierra Sellers. A nice vibey track. Great for just a chill day. Just a little mood booster. So hope you enjoy. 

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there on our real estate path. Today we discuss the difference between calling ourselves a professional and actually being a professional. reThink Real Estate Podcast Trannscription Audio length 28:02 RTRE 63 – Being a Pro vs. Saying You're a Pro [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris Lazarus here. Here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Nate you've got a bone to pick with some people. What's going on dude? [Nathan]: I mean call it a bone or not. But so I was just recently on a trip with some buddies of mine. And I was ranting. Or we were individually ranting I should say, about our industries that we respectively work in. And of course I got some puzzled looks and different things and, you know, about my rants. And ironically enough, one of the guys on the trip called me the day after we got back.  And he says “I have new respect for what you were talking about.” I said “What do you mean?” He says “Listen, you know, my…my aunt, you know, she…she passed away and…and one of my family members is selling her house. And the agent that my aunt hired said ”Listen I don't really want you telling anybody that somebody passed away in the home. Yada yada yada.”” The agent responded with “Trust me this is what I do for a living.” My friend then said “Please ask me how many houses has she sold.” I said “Well Larry how many houses as she sold?” He said zero. And he said “I totally get it.” He said this individual, you know, is making it appear I guess if you would, that they're an expert in our industry and, you know, what we do, but they've not sold a home. They have a license. Right. They're a realtor. Right. But they've done zero business. So again there…there is there's some delineation here between who's an agent who is a licensee. Right. And I get it. Just wound up. I mean I get it, you know, but I don't I also don't get it. I was taught “Fake it til you make it.” When I started. And I don't…I don't think that's the way to go. I think there's a lot of other paths to go through education and training and certain things, that I believe, you know, yourself and Christian both provide. But what would you two tell an agent in this situation? Right. [Chris]: Oh I wouldn't say…I would tell the agent “Look don't tell people this is what you do for a living until you actually make a living off of it.” [Nathan]: Christian? [Christian]: I mean my whole thing…because I was kind of taught same thing. Kind of “Fake it til you make it. Yo here's some scripts to make it sound like, you know, what you're talking about that you don't.” What I tell my new agents is like, you know, “Don't…don't come out and say “Hey I'm brand new. I don't know what I'm doing.” But positioning in such a way where you're saying “Hey, you know, I'm working closely with my designated broker. If I don't have the answer I can get it. You're getting two for the price of one. It's not just new agent flailing out there trying to pretend like they know what they're doing.”” So, you know, essentially don't lie but also don't come straight out say “Hey I don't know what I'm doing and I have no confidence. You know, I'm probably gonna [censored] up and [censored] over your listing, you know, I'm a seller.” But at the same time don't…you merely like you yeah you have all experienced in the world when you don't. because it's not hard to find out information about how experienced or how long an agent's been licensed. [Chris]: Doesn't even require an open records request. You can just look it on Zillow. [Christian]: Yeah I mean and…and…and that's it. And it may not be the case with every real estate firm. But for us, you know, we closely work with our new agents to make sure they're providing the best experience. They know what they're doing. They're not, you know, floundering, you know. And I know business brokerages are supposed to do that. [Chris]:Floundering. Like flopping around flopping around [laughter].  [Christian]: Yeah flopping around the land.  [Nathan]: Like a fish out of water is what it looks like. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: It's hard…it's hard for a new agent to mask that when, you know, you don't really know how the process works, and you don't really know the direction you're supposed to be going and what you're supposed to be saying to your client, you know. [Nathan]: Wouldn't this be an interesting industry change if you had to have some intern or externship with so many transactions under your belt before you were to able to go out and represent a buyer or seller? [Chris]: That makes sense. That's what we do for new agents. They have to have six transactions under their belt before the training wheels come off. At a minimum. And for the first six transactions they're heavily mentored through them. So they're…they're not alone. They have people like their first deals they've got a mentor that's going out. And…and working with them. Teaching them how to do the consults for the buyers. And for the listing consult. So that by the time that agent gets ready to go out and be on their own, they generally have a great idea of what they're doing. [Christian]: Yeah well that's a great way to do it. I mean I love how you formalize that. Obviously that takes, you know, a brokerage's,  you know, certain amount of experienced agents and size. And, you know… [Chris]: Yeah I'll let you know when we get at that level too. [laughter] [Christian]: It is a structure. Because you could say technically the industry requires it. but, you know, when the laws basically says, you know, “Additional designated broker oversight for the first two years” like that's really loose. And it's not, you know, it's not really…there's not really a standard for that. Even though technically new agents are supposed to be more heavily monitored. There's no…there's nothing in place a, you know, firm to firm, insuring that happens. [Chris]: Yeah I mean there…I was talking to somebody the other day he was telling me about a person who's making a switch from another firm. And this person was also a recruiter. And he was like “Yeah this person brought about a hundred and forty people over to the brokerage. And about a hundred and twenty of them left.” And I'm like “What?!” Like I don't even want to turn that number. Like I'll bring ten and one will leave. Like I'm not gonna turn a hundred and forty people to get twenty.  It's just ridiculous the lack of oversight that some of these brokerages put into actual retention and training and development. It's literally taking the pickle, throwing it at the wall and seeing which one sticks. [Christian]: Sure. Well I mean and it's well-known, and I've been saying this for years. You know, like most firms, you know, most of the industry is just focus on numbers. Like all we want is people in the seats. Licensed agents, you know. We're not really concerned about retention and training and empowering because there's gonna be, you know, a dozen new agents with, you know, dollar signs in their eyes waiting to take their spots. You know, when…when they fail. [Nathan]: It will be like “Oh let's look at our checklist. You have a license. Check. You have a pulse. Check. Oh yeah good. You can…you can join us.” And uh, you know, I often get the question “Hey what…what led to your success as an agent?” I don't want to call myself successful but I do well. And I know what I'm doing now. And I think a huge part of it and I will I will tap the shoulder if you would of the team lead, Tim Reel [phonetics], that I had at Keller Williams when I started, is…is that I…part of it… Let me rephrase this. I viewed it as an internship. Right. I knew I was gonna pay a steep cut on my team splits. And KW split. But I also knew I was gonna get an education. And I wasn't standing alone. I wasn't by myself. And I was constantly getting feedback or more importantly I was getting mentorship. I think that's what a lot of people want. And…and that helped me. And then when I did want to go out and do my own thing and kind of stand on my own feet as a solo agent, I had the capability to do that. So, you know, that's always been my win at KW. Don't…you're not a technology company. You're a training company. KW gave me some great bones. You gave me a great foundation. So any agent that is potentially listening to this, that's struggling or is thinking about coming an agent, I would tell “You…you want to do well? Go be on a team. Go…go learn.” I don't…I don't, you know, that's just me.  [Christian]: And I say you're pretty fortunate because, you know, I've heard, you know, I've heard many things as far as, you know, people kind of getting on team. I mean KW is kind of what they're known for. You know. But it's a…it could be very hit and miss. Because, you know… [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I mean you could be, you know, you can be fortunate where the team lead is actually interested in mentoring and training, in empowering their team members. But I've also seen people that, you know, get on teams and all this is a call center. And they were promised “Hey we're gonna train you. We're gonna teach you this stuff.” And they're not learning anything except for making sales calls and scripts. You know, it could be very…very hit and miss, as far as the team structure goes and the attitude of the leadership. [Nathan]: Same as I tell a potential client. Interview realtors. I tell a potential realtor and if you have a lot of teams. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Interview teams. Interview brokers. Interview office staff. Interview whoever you can. I mean… [Nathan]: Interview your clients. You don't necessarily want all your clients that come to you.  [Chris]: No stay away from my clients. You're another agent. I don't want you talking to them. [laughter] [Christian]: Yeah I am gonna interview your clients. [Chris]: So…but this is…this brings us back to like a great point. Right. Because you've got three types of agents. You've got the full time agents. Right. These are the people that are in here all the time. These are the people that this is how we make a living. Then you have the part-time agents which I don't have an issue with part-time agents. Part-time agents they're putting in the hours. They may not be in at 40, 60, 80 hours a week. But they're in it 10, 20, 30 hours a week. And that's enough so that they generally understand what's happening in the industry. And they're able to build and maintain a client base and, you know, do a few deals every year. Then you've got the problem. The last type of agent it's the sometime agent. The agent that hangs their license. They're just a licensee. They're not in it full-time. They've got another job and they'll sell a house whenever their family member comes to them and says “Hey, you know, you're a real estate agent right?” “Yeah. Yeah I am.” And they're really not. And they…they don't fully understand what's going on. And when they take a deal that's when things go sideways. So I think the clarification is what kind of agent do you want to be? If you're…if you're coming into the industry are you going to be a sometime agent? Or are you gonna be a part-time agent? Because if you're…if you're just dipping your toe in the water and this is new for you, you have to be a part-time agent. If you're anything less than that you're never gonna learn enough to be successful. You know what? You know what? We can just steal from the Game of Thrones on that. Because, you know what we say, to us sometimes agent…not today. [Christian]: Not today.  [Nathan]: Not today. [Christian]: What I was gonna say so…so that's as we jumped into this, you guys are like “Hey let' talk about this thing.” “I don't know what you're talking about.” So…so we talked about licensee versus an agent that's [crosstalk]. That's what you mean? [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I got you. I think… [Nathan]: I think I've told the story once. I insulted a woman. She's…we were having a conversation. [Christian]: You insulted someone? No way. [Nathan]: Yes. And she said something like “Oh you're real estate agent?” And I said “Yeah.” And she said “Me too.” And I was like “Great. How many houses did you sell last year?” And she's like “Four.” And I was like “You're not an agent.” She got all upset. I was like…what…like…I don't know. [Christian]: You have a way with words Nathan.  [Nathan]: Like I mean it is what it is. I mean I…yeah that's right. But there needs to be so many changes in our industry. And, you know, again we can talk about the barrier and entry. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about two things on this episode, I guess. If we want to just get going and keep going.  [Chris]: Well let's keep going. [Christian]: But before we get away can I say something? [Nathan]: Go. Get away.  [Christian]: Get away. So to your point Chris about the licensee versus an agent and the three types of agents, and it's interesting. It seems like there's so many new agents that get into it just to be a licensee. It's basically like “Hey I can make, you know, a lot of money just, you know, accidentally selling a house now and then, to…to a friends.” So they're not invested in learning or building a career. They're kind of testing the waters. And memorably they fail and realize, you know, usually it's too late. “Hey this actually cost me a lot of money and I'm not really willing to put in the time. And real estate doesn't work”. You know. [Chris]: It's…it's like people come in here and, you know, you can go and get a real estate license and you can go and sell your own home and you can buy your next home and you can earn a commission. Great. Yeah it offsets your down payment.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you factor in that you do that once every ten years and it's…it's really not worth your time.  [Christian]: Right. Well I like your distinction between basically, you know, the part-time, who is still again with the time they have, they're investing and learning. Versus the “I'm just sitting here with my license doing other stuff until something comes my way. And then I flattened my way through it.” And because I think it's a big difference. I think a lot of people in the industry inflate the two.  Like I was having a conversation the other day with, you know, some agents from another indie brokerage here in town. And I love that brokerage but they're very…very high standards on who they'll accept. Like if three times a week there or you're gone. You know, you have certain production what are you gone. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: I think that's great but that means… [Chris]: I wish more brokers did that. [Christian]: But that means that they don't do part-time agents. And, you know, this particular agent I was talking to, was basically cuckooing part-time agents. I was like listen “The people that can do it full-time like you you're basically taking it elitist stance, because people have kids or they have other jobs or, you know, it's just not the priority in life to spend 80 hours a week trying to make real estate work.” And I think there's room for that because just because you're part time doesn't necessarily mean you're inept. Or, you know, don't know how to do real estate. It just made you're focusing on other things. You know. [Chris]: Wait really? Because I thought whatever my preconceived notions were, we're correct. [Christian]: But I'm saying I think there's a difference. Because part time agents can invest in their training and knowledge and experience just as much as a full time. But that's a lot different than someone who just is seating on the sidelines waiting for real estate to come to them. [Chris]: As long as they're putting in the hours. And…and it's actually interesting that you bring that up. Because there was a study done by a university talking about entrepreneurship and going and creating your own self-employed income. And the success rates. And somebody who does it part-time at first, believe it or not has a thirty percent greater chance of success rate, long term. Than somebody who just dives in off the deep end full-time. So you can have somebody who's coming in part-time 20 hours a week and as long as they're working those 20 hours there's a greater chance of success that that person is going to be a long-term successful real estate agent. Then somebody who comes in off the bat, full time and has one way to go. [Christian]: What…it's interesting. Is that because they're runways longer because they have a supplemental income. Or something as opposed to… [Chris]: Yeah. The caveat with this is that those people are actually putting in the work. Right. They're working 20, 30 hours a week.  [Christian]: Sure. Right. They're not sitting around at their home office watching Netflix and occasionally making a call or something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Well I mean aren't there plenty of full-time agents who work a lot of part-time hours? [Christian]: That's true. That's a good distinction. They usually don't make it either. [laughter] [Nathan]: I mean I know plenty of full-time agent, who I mean it's like “[censored] if you're full-time than you suck.” [laughter] I mean it's because you look at their sales history. Like great you sold six houses last year. But you're full-time. And then there's the part-time agent who sells twenty five a year. Right. So… [Christian]: Again that comes down to your hustle and your focus. Because I've seen full-time agent that, you know, that are there full-time, but they're mentally…they're all over the place. [Nathan]: Yeah right. So I, you know, I don't like to get into this, you know, “O you're full-time, part-time.” Again sales cure is all, where I come from. And if you have a history you have a history. That's what I…that's what I like to look at is, you know, it's what matters. If somebody says “Well I'm a full-time agent.” Well great you'd be a full-time agent with [censored] sales. Right. I mean that's easy. And so I'd rather say Hey you're an agent with a great history.” That…to me is important. That's where we can delineate the that whole thing.  Is…let's not get into full-time, part-time. Yeah, the sometime, I don't want to get around. But let's just get into “Hey what did you…” I tell them “What did you sell?” Ask them what did they sell last year. What they do. Which may be and, you know, part of this I wanted to ask in this kind of segues into the other side of this, is does area specialization in a normal market, like where I'm at, in Columbus, does that matter anymore due to the amount of data that is available? My argument would be “No it doesn't matter.” [Chris]: I would argue you, against that.  [Nathan]: I figured you would. Yeah Christian too. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Nathan]: But that's just me. So… [Chris]: And I think it comes down to the level of service that somebody wants to bring. If…if you have like three agents going up against one neighborhood, and one agent knows everything about the neighborhood, all the history. Everything that has taken place there. Everything that's going in. All the development that…that's happening. Then that agent can sell not only the house but also the story.  And if you could sell the story, you know, that…that's the best way to market right now. Whereas if you have two other agents that don't know that info, then they're just…they're either competing on price or they're competing on marketing ability. [Nathan]: All right go back in there. There's an agent you left out of this. What about the agent that has the capability to use their commission as leverage on a deal? That's not in the area. [Christian]: I mean I think it… [Chris]: Where would he use that laverage? [Nathan]: Towards closing costs. Say…saying…because in our market you can do that. Right. Say…say I specialize in Dublin. Right. Ohio. But I want to go to…I got a client who want…your potential client who's interested in buying in New Albany, that yeah I've done deals over there. But I'm competing against a New Albany realtor. And…and I can offer…say Christian's my buyer. I can incentivize him to use me because I can say “Hey you're gonna buy $500,000 home. You know what I'll do? I'll take three thousand dollars on my commission and credit that to you towards closing cost and pre-paids and closing cost.” Now in a competitive market I'm gonna choose the agent that's got leeway to give me something. Or that could bridge appraisal, help with closing cost or something like that. Over somebody who says “Oh I specialize in an area.” That's just me and my train of thought. [Christian]: I mean the specializing in an area, I…I'd say the value really depends on which side you're on. Like…like when I'm on the listing side I think it like I specialize in West Seattle. But I do other areas of Seattle in the suburbs. Like I remember specifically like I helped a military friend of mine sell this place and well the suburbs here.  Now I didn't…I've never sold a house in that area. And so one of the questions I had to ask is like “Hey tell me about your neighborhood.” Like “There's a main…there's a main road going through here. Our house is on this side of it. A lot different than this side.” Because I can look at the numbers all day long but as the stats don't tell me, you know, why people move to this area. Or what the demographics are. Or who the ideal buyer is gonna be.  You know, so you've got to do a lot more digging and you actually know the area for that. And on the buyer side I don't think that's as important. I mean it can be. You can leverage it. but, you know, you're not really…I think it's more important on the seller side. Because you're gonna use that information, that knowledge of the neighborhood to target that ideal buyer.  [Chris]: And I think… [Christian]: What to focus on. [Chris]: Yeah and Nate to your point, I think you're you're kind of comparing apples to oranges right now. Because you're…you're talking about two completely different value propositions. That the agents can base on. And, you know, all of them work. Right. There's a million different value propositions on how you can build your business. Whether you specialize in historic or new construction or this one area or whatever it might be. Or you…you leverage some of your commission income to incentivize, you know, the client base.  You know, you can pay. It's one way or another. If you want to take some of your commission and do that on the back end through a rebate, you know, who am I to judge? All of them work. They're all different business models. And I don't call one discount versus one traditional. They're just different business models. It just depends on what's right for the individual agent. And what's right for the individual agent has to line up with the broker that they're with. Because not all brokers will allow their agents to do a commission rebate. Or to donate some towards closing costs. Whatever that might be. But it has to…like they all work. Like one agent may have a value proposition. And their proposition may be “I know everything about this area. Use me because I'm gonna make sure you're fully informed.” And then another agent may say “Well we're not as familiar with the area but we'll make sure that you have this financial instead of…” And then it's just up to the buyer. Right. The buyer may want money or they we may want their choice to be 100%. So it can go either way. [Christian]: And I'd say I mean you can't you can kind of think about in terms of like your commission is one of the terms of the contract. And so it's something that you could leverage just like you can any other terms, you know. That's something that you directly have control over versus, you know, the buyer. But, you know, options. [Nathan]: Right. Just curious. I mean you see it often. I mean…and I've done it. but, you know, we'll waive appraisal. And, you know, I will use my commission as a bridge in case that commits…that appraisal comes in short. And I've had plenty of times. It never has. We've been fine. I've had times where it comes in short and hey that's fine too. Again it's…it's as much for the seller when I represent a buyer to offer, you know, to say “Hey I'm willing to use my commission as a bridge in case it doesn't.” Because then they know they'll, you know, they'll get that money. So… [Chris]: I think that that's something to be careful about. So you're… you're very well versed in that Nate. But for your average agent, like if they're going into putting their livelihood on the line, like they got…they're gambling on themselves. [Nathan]: Yeah they are. [Chris]: And…and that's what you're doing. And you're good. And I would probably gamble on myself if I had to take the bet. [Nathan]: I like it. [Chris]: But I think that there's a lot of agents that for general advice…Don't do that well.  [Nathan]: Yes. You also…you got to remember I am fair. I keep 100% of my commission. Truly 100%. Right. So, you know, I don't have a split. So you got to think on a normal agents, say they're on a 60/40 split, you know, they're already taking a hit. Right. So they're potentially gonna take a bigger hit? Like, you know, they do have to be cautious. I…I have a little…I have a lot more leeway. Let's be honest. But… [Christian]: Sure. Not all the firms are going to support that. You know, so… [Nathan]: No they're not.  [Chris]: And you know as general…for our audience, as general advice I'm gonna say don't do that. Mainly because I don't know, you know, if I'm talking about the average agent, right. [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: They're not gonna be at that level to where, you know, I would feel comfortable just saying “Hey go out and put your commission on the line.” Because guess what? They do that. They say “I'll bridge the gap on an appraisal.” And the appraisal was four percent off instead of three. [Christian]: Well yeah… [Chris]: Now what's gonna happen? [Christian]: I mean you should always have…always have a cap, you know, as far as how far you'll go. You know, I mean I think in general, the principle I like. Because you're basically partnering with your clients, with skin the game. As opposed to you like “Hey, you know, here's all the terms. If it doesn't work out, well I'm fine. But you're gonna get [censored].”  [Nathan]: Well and my part in it is where I bridge part of the gap. My client will bridge part of the gap. But my commission will supersede their bridge. So but again what we're doing and like you said is, you know, kind of like in Top Gun. Right. You know, when you went fully inverted over the other plane and they're like this, you know. So that's the maneuver I pull. And I just haven't taken the picture yet. So…[laughter] [Chris]: International relations. [Nathan]: That's right. So anyway those are my two concerns or thoughts…would, over the last week. [Christian]: It's a creative way to do what you have to do, in a competitive market. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Chris]: Just make sure you run it by your broker. [Christian]: Always. [Chris]: And have your lawyers look at your language in your contract.  [Nathan]: Yeah you actually have to disclose that too, here. So… [Chris]: Yeah you do in Georgia also if you're doing that with the commission. The buyer has to pay tax on that too. [Nathan]: Really? [Chris]: Yeah. Otherwise you have to claim it. [Nathan]: Yeah that's true. [Chris]: Yeah. All right. Well I mean I think that was pretty good. So just recapping. If you're…if you're brand new in the industry, you know, you you're one of three people, you're a full-timer, a part-timer or some timer. Don't be a some timer. Because if you're a some timer, you're never gonna learn everything you need to know in order to be successful at this job.  And then, you know, figure out how you want to build your business. Right. You can…you could do a bit model like Nathan and use your commissioners leverage as long as you do it right. Or you can be the expert in your field. Know everything about everyone.  And everything that's going on in your neighborhood. And make sure that you're the source of information. Either way the business models work. Pick what's right for you. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next Monday. [Nathan]: Peace. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode In today's episode Chris and Christian briefly discuss their thoughts on home automation and smart technology. Let us know what smart technology you prefer in the comments! Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 13:51 RTRE 56 –  Where's Tech Going? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris. My man Nate is again out selling homes so he can't be with us here today. But we do want to make sure you're here with us getting the re:Think Real Estate treatment every Monday. So thanks for tuning in. Christian what is going on my man? [Christian]: Hi, I was just thinking about the future of the business and stuff and things and… [Chris]: Yeah what do you think… [Christian]: Things I am not doing because… [Chris]: What do you think it will be like in the future? Take a wild guess. [Christian]: Well I mean I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, positioning that kind of stuff. [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: You know about 10 years ago podcasting was the new rage. You know it seems like real estate is finally as an industry is catching on to maybe podcasting as a viable medium. We have… [Chris]: Viable I don't know. It is a medium.  [Christian]: Viable like I mean the interwebs [phonetics]. It is not going anywhere. It might be here to stay. [Chris]: Yeah it is here to stay. [Christian]: Yeah you know I have been doing my own podcast for almost 3 years now and I felt like when I started that I was kind of like behind the curb. But I was just kind of thinking you know kind of the newer trends, and I think that there is a big…there is gonna a big push maybe or you know the masses are gonna start adopting kind of the smart homes stuff as opposed to just…I think previously it has been just kind of the more tech savvy people coming out of the fringes.  But I think with Alexa and Echos and Google homes and stuff become more popular as I think that audio content is gonna start becoming you know audio first content is gonna start becoming huge you know. I mean video is just so great but the problem with videos is you've gotta be dedicated to watching that video. And it is the only thing you can do. While audio podcasts are all flash briefing all that stuff that you can be doing something else. You could be driving a car or in your home you can be working. So I think it can be more…as our attention it continues to be demanded in multiple directions so it is gonna be more of a push in adoption for audio first stuff. [Chris]: Like audiobooks right?  [Christian]: What is that? [Chris]: It is like audio books. You just…The way our cars work now with the Bluetooth the moment you get out of the car it pauses, when you get back into the car it keeps going. You know, and you can be driving down the road of in your office and it just the continuity it stops and goes and keeps going and you are able to just load more content while you are doing other thing.  [Christian]: Yeap, exactly you know I was thinking about how this relate to real estate. You know how with the help of an agent or brokerage. And I think it is you know it could be another piece of the content marketing, positioning piece. You know, for me I have been thinking like OK you know I want to start like an Alexa flash briefing, right.  You know those are basically mini 1 to 2 minute…think of them as mini podcast and so you know if you have Alexa at home or Echo you could say…you could enable these skills and say you know, “Alexa play…play my flash briefings for the day”. And what would be a set up 1 minute Gary V sample and then you know social marketing with Chelsey Pites [phonetics] you know or whoever you subscribe to it will give you the little 1 minute blur you know. And the thing that is different about them is that you can't go back. It is kind of like it is today and that is it.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So it is very try and forget but I am thinking like if this starts becoming the norm, the thing, you know if people start going to their Alexa for “Hey Alexa what is the weather, what is the traffic, what is the housing market doing?”. You know like there is gonna be more and more skills built out you know by brokerages, by industry leaders, by marketers you know, all that kind of stuff.  So how can you get in front of that? Because right now there is not very much in the real estate space. You know the couple I know about gear towards the real estate agents, geared towards the industry not towards consumers. So what would that look like? You know. [Chris]: So I am not too familiar with like Alexa and Google Home. And all that because frankly I don't want anybody listening to me and I don't need more tech for my kids to interact with right now. [Christian]: But they are already listening. [Chris]: I know I know. [Christian]: Here. Everything [laughter]. [Chris]: Yeah well so probably. But…so we haven't gone on board with the smart home yet. Our home is dump. It was built in the 70s. It is as dump as dump can be. But I did see an article the other day about some technology that is gonna become an outleap next year. OK so mid to late 2020 and we have a ton of cool things on the horizon.  So, Apple is gonna come out with their glasses. And I saw a report on this. And the things are super lightweight and I can just imagine right in 5 or 10 years you are driving down the street or you are in a showing, and you've got your real estate app on your phone and as you walk through the house it is giving you all the details about every room. It is giving you all the updates. You are driving down the street and there is a house for sale and just in your glasses, on your display it is telling you all the price, the bath and bed features, you know.  That is gonna be the world that we live in in a few years. It's…we're not far away from it and you know technology is exponentially increasing. That is not slowing down anytime soon. So like it's gonna be crazy where this all goes. I don't know about Alexa and all that. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you're probably right, pretty soon I am sure I will probably have one too.  [Christian]: Yeah well possibly I mean you know, it is hard to tell where the trend is gonna go. Because you know, Google has their glass and that was a major flop. Now maybe it was just ahead of it's time and people weren't ready for it. Maybe it is a platform issue you know, whatever, but yeah we will see. I mean I am definitely seeing the audio…audio first medium catching traction with masses. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: It is not nearly as rare as the people have you know Google Home or an Echo. [Chris]: Well if you are listening to this episode, tell your friends to listen to this too because podcasts are cool y'all. [Christian]: Yeah and so initially…so my journey into the smart homes started with the Google Home. Right. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because I think its…we bought a new house and we bought a Nest. And when I bought it had like a have and for 20 bucks you could get to buy a Google Home. You know medium or whatever I am not sure.  [Chris]: Yeah why not. [Christian]: And I was thinking “Hey you know Google versus Amazon of course the Google one is gonna be able to do way more”. But it doesn't. Like it's kind of weak. So…But you know as I experimented with the Alexa app which you can actually download for your phone and essentially you know use the same…the exact same commands and just integrate with your house, I started enabling skills and messing around with that.  And I am like “OK well this is cool”. And so I bought one of the nicer Echos because it has a better speaker because I didn't realize…well the big thing is it is able to like “Hey play jazz music or … you know whatever and it will start playing you know a Spotify channel or you know if it is Google it will play Google play or you know an Echo it will play your Amazon music.  And so you essentially have you know these diverse play list at your fingertips and so I wanted a decent sounding stereo and like the Sonos are actually integrated with the…with the Alexa platform.  [Chris]: The Sonos speaker? [Christian]: Yes. So there are some cool options out there but like that's what we use it for a lot but once you start getting like smart plugs and a Nest of [inaudible] stuff you can set up essentially you know, I don't know, work flows or what do they call it. Something different on the platform. But to say you know, “Alexa good morning and do you have a turn on your lights and start a soft jazz music and turn your heat up” or you know whatever you program it to do. You know. Now we could just make the argument “Hey we are getting lazy”.  But I think the future is going in that direction where I think the people are having to pull out their phones or their watches and like touch the screen is gonna become antiquated and too much of a pain. And they much really just be able to say “Hey do this thing” and have an app launch or have a series of functions happen. So for… [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: So for real estate I think there is some huge, huge… [Chris]: And it is kind of cool. Like “Amazon prepare my house for a showing” and then everything kicks on.. the oil diffuser starts making it smell like cookies. The lighting dims, the music is playing. Like that would be a pretty cool Alexa app. [Christian]: Well yeah I mean and that is if you have a smart phone. It is easy I mean. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Set the workflow for this trigger starts playing this music station and let them. I think for real estate you know my point in this is I think it is starting to get beyond novelty to practical and mainstream. And I think the real estates… [Chris]: And it is inexpensive enough to do that now. [Christian]: Right exactly I mean there are nicer…I think the…I think the Echo starts at 40 bucks and the one I have has a decent speaker and it is like 110. You know like you spend hundreds on the Sonos but you know if you want a rocking audio system but…I think for real estate there is opportunities for things like flash briefings and different things that would put you as a leader in technology in providing value and giving up to the community.  You know it is just…And you could repurpose it from a Facebook live or Instagram live. Cut out the audio and there is your daily or weekly briefing or whatever, you know. So there is definitely ways to leverage content you are already creating for these new platforms to continue building your brand.  [Chris]: Sounds good. I will have to get on that Alexa new wagon. I am not there yet. We'll give it time. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I mean the only thing…[crosstalk]. Unfortunately you know my crystal ball is broken. [Christian]: Yeah is that why you are not rich?  [Chris]: Yeah it is one of those things you know where most predictions never come true but now it is like we are watching this app and… [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: There is definitely something that happens over the next few years. And… [Christian]: Well right and I think the biggest challenge right now with where technology is, is lack of integration. Because you know Google has a proprietor thing. Amazon has theirs you know… [Chris]: They are gonna talk to each other. [Christian]: You know they're different IOT…internet…internet of things. You know I don't think there is a standard protocol so you will have to get stuff that is compatible otherwise you have 2 or  different systems that are smart separately but they don't integrate. Well that is more of a pain than it is worthy. You know. [Chris]: Yeah or you find some manufacturer that makes 2 versions. One that integrates with Alexa and one that integrates with Google. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: Pain in the butt. Well I mean it all makes sense. It is gonna be interesting to where this all goes. But I will be interested to see in a few years if you are not right, and that audio and flash briefings become a more important thing in real estate.  [Christian]: Well I am interested to hear what our listeners think. You know leave comment as in  the future how they are using this kind of leading edge technology whether that is audio or you know VR or AR you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Send us a message. Contact us. Hit the form on the website rtrepodcast.com. Christian if you are right on this than maybe in the near future we need to step in some flash briefings together for the re:Think podcast.  [Christian]: Sounds good and you owe me a drink. [Chris]: Argh always. Get yourself over to Georgia and trust me drinks are on the house.  [Christian]: Alright. [Chris]: Alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Ever wonder why some people leave a bad taste in your mouth after meeting them? Successful marketing requires building a relationship with your audience. Many real estate professionals avoid this and instead grab a bullhorn and shout at their audience expecting the same results. Tune in for today's episode to hear us talk about how to NOT be annoying in your interactions with the public. The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Audio length 30:15 [music] [Chris]: Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech. [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas what's happening? Alright [laughter]. Today we're gonna talk about being annoying [laughter].  [Chris]: That's a great intro for that Christian. Before we get started Nate how is your CRM doing? [Nathan]: Yeah…anyway… [Chris]: [laughter] Alright. So yeah, we definitely want to talk about being annoying and how not to do that. Today's episode we're talking about marketing. And our good friend Joe Rand over from JoeRand.com just came out with an article a few days ago which was “Stop being annoying-The 3 phases of communication technology and why nobody likes us”. So great article. Nate you found this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it? [Nathan]: Well I didn't find it. It happened…you know I found it, whatever. I saw it. It was funny because I was having thoughts like Joe was having and Joe was much better with words than I, that's why he has a couple of books right? But I just…I was getting annoyed because like I get on Facebook right and it's just…it's just…It's not even Facebook anymore. What we used to know right. It's kind of like you know how MTV changed. It's all marketing. It's just marketing. And a lot of it it's realtors who won. I mean I'm not…I hate to be that guy to pick on our industry but again we got a content. It's horrible but again you know whether it's from…And I mean I am looking here right now. Some golf advert to realtor, to realtor, to realtor. Like it's just nonstop and it's poor. And I don't know I feel like we find a good you know what would you call it, a medium, and than we go and ruin it and people hate us for it. And Joe you know wrote the article about how to stop being annoying. He offers a 3-part solution. Phase 1 the excitement. Phase 2 solicitation. 3 is the protection.  [Chris]: Let's talk about that. [Nathan]: Well let's talk about it but I want to get to the point real quick on this and then we go back to the 3 phases.  And then he offers he says “What's the solution?”. He says “Well we can't do anything about everyone else”.  I agree 100%.  “But we can police our own behavior”. Instead of using email, social media, phones to make annoying calls that only serve our own interest we need to focus our outbound marketing efforts on providing a service to other people. Think about what they need not what you need.  [Christian]: But being client centric? What. That's crazy. Thinking about other people.  [Chris]: I've never heard of that before.  [Nathan]: I don't think we've ever talked about that have we? [Chris]: No it's completely out of line with this show.  [Nathan]: So Phase 1. Phase 1 is excitement. [Chris]: And so phase 1 like I think he compared it to people getting an answering machine right. Everybody got an answering machine and everybody wanted to see the red light blinking and then telemarketers just ruined it. And then nobody has an answering machine now and people barely check their voicemail. [Christian]: Sure I mean I think the idea is you know I mean there's quite a number of books on you know technology and evolution of it and this plays right into that theme of when something new comes out it's exciting. Everyone wants it. You know it goes back to like the days of pre-TV with you know door to door salesman. You know like being at home is boring so people wanted people to come to the door.  And then that got saturated and you know you had the mail. People enjoyed getting mail and then you know solicitations and advertisement got in the mail and now people you know hover over the recycling bin throwing away mail.  And you know now you're getting that you know with social media. Like you used to enjoy getting on social media and checking in with friends and whatever and now you have to whip 30 you know half of it is solicitations from agents or other marketers, you know, as agents. We're getting solicited for leading this or growing your business that you know by who knows who. You know so self-described gurus. And you know now you have to filter there. Now you know it takes away the joy of what once was. Looking forward to getting online or looking forward to getting the mail or looking forward to someone getting to your house. Now it's annoying. [Chris]: Yeah we find something that we enjoy. We get excited about it. New technology and all the advertisers start catching on to it. They start saying “Oh we can reach people in a new way through this technology”.  And then they start soliciting and soliciting and hounding us left and right through the mediums that we're enjoying. And that's the end game right? Because that's how these platforms make money. It's though advertising. They're advertising companies.  And then what happens next that's what Joe says is phase 3. That's protection. We stop paying attention to them. We develop coping mechanisms to not be solicited and not listen or not pay attention to the ads that are coming on. And I think that this is a big reason why our attention span has now become that's less than a goldfish. Because that has been a coping mechanism to pay…to not pay attention to all of these solicitations that we're getting.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I would say that part of it is just a medium of social media. Not necessarily being advertised. You know it's you know there's another big leaf. There is a message in that medium so it's not just the only thing they're consuming is the message you know but consuming a message via print versus auditory, versus you know social media. You know like it's gonna do different things in your brain. You respond differently you know.  But it doesn't help that we now have all this extra white noise to filter through to get to what we actually wanna see which is typically you know friends and family and not solicitors trying and sell us something. [Chris]: Absolutely and so let's talk about how we cannot be annoying. You know I friend people in real estate all the time and last week somebody reached out on Facebook, sent me this message. This person is in real estate.  This is what they said “Hey Christopher I almost didn't message you because I don't want to come across spammy. LOL. My wife and I have had some great result with “Thrive”. More energy [cough] mental clarity, weight management. I even sleep better. It might be for you and I think or it might not and that's OK. Just wanted to share what's working for me. Would you be open to more info?” There's absolutely nothing of value that that person delivered to me. And it's just… [Nathan]: If you're not sleeping well it could be of value. [Chris]: Well do I want more energy or do I want to sleep better? I mean does…is it just me or those 2 are completely different ends of the spectrum?  [Nathan]: [censored] I just want my kid to stay in his bed at night and not interrupt my sleep so if they can fix that for me in that email. [Chris]: [laughter] I mean it's what has become of people. And that person is in real estate and they are paddling a multi-level marketing product on the side. I mean do you think that their real estate marketing may end up following similar pattern? I don't think it's a farfetched to actually see that leap being made. [Nathan]: I think-no go ahead sorry. [Chris]: No I mean I…kind of the point I kind of make here is if you're just going out and peddling something in front of somebody they're gonna ignore you. Those are the coping mechanisms that we have developed now. It's no longer…like we don't like being sold things.  [Nathan]: No I am attracted to the brands or things that eat my curiosity. That I don't feel like they're jammed down my throat.  And so I'll use a perfect example and in no form or shape I represent them but recently I have been doing the Purple Carrot Meal Delivery right. And I just hashtag it on my Ohio running realtor Instagram. You know “#purplecarrotblablabla”. The…I take pictures of the food which is really good. But I have had more people reach out to me just through organically saying “Hey can you tell me a little bit more about Purple Carrot?”.  I am not…I am not on there going “Purple Carrot is the bomb bla bla bla”. I put what the meal is. I state you know whether it is cous cous or whatever it may be, insert a joke there and take a really nice picture and then put it out there.  And I have had a lot of people private message me or DM me or whatever you wanna call it and say “Hey can you tell me more about it?”. I am not forcing it down anybody's throat. I am not saying you have to have this”. But it has created interest.  I am a brand ambassador for Prevail Botanicals. You don't see my thread on Facebook with Prevail every day. We use a hashtag. We don't jam it down your throat. Have that people say “Hey what stuff do you use with your sore muscles and your AT pains from running and bla bla bla” and I say “It's Prevail”.  If they wanna know more than they'll ask but I feel it's the same with real estate. Like if somebody is really genuinely interested in real estate they're gonna ask you. Just...you don't have to jam it down people's throats. At least I believe that you're a [censored] realtor. Like just I don't know I feel like we're so over the top. Like over the time. Like “What do you like better this back porch or that back porch?” “What I like is when you don't post [censored] like that personally but…”  [laughter] Like nobody cares right. I just…They don't care about interest rates unless they are buying a house. They don't care about houses unless they are buying a house. So that's me and it works for me. It doesn't mean it works for everybody else. And my colleague, Mr. Harris, has his hand up over there so I am gonna let him talk on that. I am gonna thank you Christian.  [Christian]: Alright. I am gonna play the devil's advocate here for a sec. What if someone…What if someone is listening and thinking “Well how do we know they're real estate agents there?” Where is the balance between letting someone know and being in sales and annoying when you talk about houses? [Nathan]: Because there is a way to be subtle about it. Like you know…like I don't…I just…like when I go to a closing the biggest thing that I do other than my hashtag that's on a separate entity but I check into a closing and I put “Doing a closing thing”. People know…I mean most people know, I don't want to say everybody, but they know that I am a realtor or that in some way I am doing that business. And there's other ways.  I don't know. I just don't want my social media feed filled with that crap and guess what I have taken the option of doing. I have taken the choice of filtering all that out. You know. It's that old advertisement. You don't like something on the TV change the channel. I have changed the channel. So… [Chris]: I think it all comes down to the message. Marketing is required. The marketing is the…it is the whole process of staying top of mind in our sphere but there are different ways that we can do it right.  So an example is, Nathan you just brought up rates. Your typical buyer doesn't care about the rate. Unless they're very savvy. They care about the payment. So if your post on social media “Up rates just jumped again” and all you talk about is the rate than that doesn't really provide any value to them. That your target audience may know that you have something to do with real estate but they're not really paying attention to that message.  On the other hand if you say “Rates just jumped again” so…and then you kind of put that in context and say “Well a $200.000 house now the payment went from on average about 12.000 to now about 13.000” that means something a little bit more that is easier for somebody outside of the industry to understand.  I think that marketing involves us putting ourselves in the potential client shoes. The shoes of the consumer, to understand what is important to them.  If you talk about due diligence right they don't care about due diligence. They buy a house once every 10 years. They don't need to know that stuff every day. They need to know what is going on in the community. Right.  Realtors should be the digital mayor of the community. They should be out there saying “Well we have these festivals going on. I'll see you there”. Or share a personal story that really somebody can resonate with that may reflect around what you do professionally that gives some sort of authenticity and come insight to show that you're human and that you're not just trying to sell them on something. Because that's…that's been the focal point for everything that we do. That's the idea behind client's centricity. Is putting their needs first. We need to do that in our marketing too.  [Christian]: I think you being up an interesting point. It's a lot of it comes down to marketing you know that is that. And in my experience yeah the majority of what is being peddled out there is marketing in real estate you know by franchises, by gurus, by trainers is pretty much the opposite of you know Joe Rants “Don't be annoying”.  You know they say “You gotta be top of mind”. And to them that's making your phone calls and pestering people and going online. And if you go “Oh by the way if you know anyone that can buy or sell a house” like everyone is taught to say that so everyone says it so no one…so it means nothing to no one. People are just like “Oh yeah that's what a realtor says” you know. It's like a stand up. You know that's bad marketing. That is low bar. I am not thinking I am just told to do this and I am gonna do it and supposedly that will give me result. They probably are not the results that you want.  [Chris]: I think you just hit the nail in the head there.  [Nathan]: I do too. [Chris]: Thinking. And that's the problem. If you're gonna market effectively you have to think about what the message is that is gonna solve the problem for your consumer. [Christian]: Well you have to start with who your consumer is. You know if it is the population that you asked well there is your first problem. Like that should not be your targeting market. You know. [Chris]: You've got different segments right. You've got …there might be an itch that you work. And that might be your thing to go after her whether that we based off of a previous profession, a hobby. Whether you're running or cycling or you just love giving back in the community and you're in the philanthropy space. You have geographic which is you can market based off of where you live and where you do business or you can go and just focus on something specific in real estate right.  If you focus on if you're in the equestrian market and you've grown up in the equestrian world and you understand horse ranches better than anybody else that is something that you can specifically market to but the fact is that no matter what you're marketing to, what segment that is you've gotta find out a way to provide value to them.  It's geographic. Share what's going on in the community. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that said, “Share what is going on in the community“ and how little people actually do it.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean even if you don't have all that figured out just be an interesting person [laughter]. I mean like I think like Peter Lorimer or something you know. Obviously he's got a big personality like British accent and stuff but like this guy has hands in everything. And it's all really interesting to watch or listen to. You know, and I get the impression he is trying to sell to me. Like it's always helping agents or you know “Look at this cool thing, this is what I am doing in my life right now”. Like it's never “Hey if you're looking to buy or sell you know in Los Angeles…” or whatever you know yeah I mean you could figure it out.  So going back to kind of our initial conversation about Joe Rants 3 things it's as you were giving that example you know you received a social message whatever it was. It is interesting that we have gotten you know most people think we are related to this. We've gotten so far along the hiatus to the sales pitch that they don't even pretend it's not a sales pitch. They just come up like “Hey I hope this isn't annoying to you” or “I hope this doesn't come off as spammy” [laughter] which really means “This is a standard sales pitch”. [Chris]: Yeah you know “I am about to annoy the hell out of you”. [Christian]: As if that's more authentic and will make it less salesly or you're more likely to you know like they think that that's they know that's a barrier and they think that admitting it will be less a barrier. When in reality that's just like “Oh thankfully I didn't read the whole message. Delete”. Just put it up front so I can delete quickly you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I mean my response to him was” you know “You should have stuck with your gut. [laughter]. It was definitely spammy and annoying. And shouldn't have messaged me.” But agents do that all the time. Real estate agents they do the same thing that multi-level marketing people are doing. “Hey haven't talked to you in a while. Wanted to reach out and let you know I am in real estate now. Do you know anybody that is looking to buy or sell in the next you know 30-60-90 days”. Whatever it is.  Agents do that all the time and there's…it's actually really easy to not do that. Like if you meet somebody and they ask you what you do the first thing you're gonna say is “Real estate”. And they're just gonna come down and immediately ask you how the market is. That is the instantly question that the buyers or anybody that you meet are gonna ask you once they find out that you're in real estate. So what do most agents do? Well most agents the moment they get asked that question they say “The market is great. The market is great. When are you looking to move?” or “Are you looking to move?”. They immediately position themselves for the time share pitch. And that's the high pressure.  [Christian]: That's desperate. [Chris]: They come off as desperate. And the people that are on the opposite side they don't feel like they're on a conversation anymore. They feel like they're being cornered into becoming a lead. And people don't want to be considered a lead. They want to be considered you know their name and they don't want to be you know a prospect.  So a great way that that can be changed is instead of asking them “Well you know are you looking to buy or sell?”. “Who is your realtor?” “Oh I don't have a realtor I am not in the market”. “Oh great well not everybody is in the market at all time. So who do you call when you need to file your tax assessment? Who do you call when you're trying to figure out how much money you should spend on the renovation and you want to make sure that you don't get negative equity?” “Like these are kind of free services, they're complimentary services that we offer to everybody in the community as part of our company and I'd love to be able to be that person for you if you ever need to reach out. If some of these people end up using me to buy or sell some of us don't but it's not a big deal but we're here for you and we want to provide value”.  Doing something like that the conversation goes a whole different way. People have respect for you for not trying to sell them. They thing that you're a professional and that you don't need to beg for the business and it's just a different impression that we can leave on the people that we meet. [Nathan]:  That's just…it makes me think of this example of why we have a bad name. Next door you know the social site, right? OK right so somebody the other day posted “Hey I got friends looking to move in the neighborhood. If you know anybody looking to sell let me know.” Of course it got like 5 responses right. And one of those responses is somebody I know that is getting ready to least and bla bla bla. What they didn't realize as soon as they responded the person said “Well I am an agent and I've got clients looking in this area, what do you have and I'll let you…” It's the classic [censored] you know. They didn't have anything.  [Christian]: Switch.  [Nathan]: It was just the baiting switch. And my client was just like “Man that is so shady” and I was like “And people wonder why we have such a bad name. When you do [censored] like that it's just horrible”. I like…I wanted to message everybody in that thread and “Hey you do know this person is an agent and they're actually not looking for their family member, they're trying to find new clients. Like it's such a [censored] shady way to do things”.  [Christian]: Do you guys follow the broke agent? [Chris]: [laughter] Yeah on occasion.  [Nathan]: Yeah you're talking to him [laughter]. [Christian] Alright. You know there's a funny you know GIF meme he posted the other day. It was like it was a clip from one of The pirates of the Caribbean movies where Jack Sparrow is being chased across the beach by a mob, you know. It's like I think the subtext was like “You know when someone posts online about their selling their house and these agents just the mob of agents chasing them you know”. It's like pretty much sums it up. [Nathan]: Yeah they go “Opportunity oh my God lets start salivating and jumping over each other”. [Chris]: So lets talk about that. If someone posted online that they want an agent what do you do? [Christian]: They usually won't though. They're usually more cryptic like “I am moving to this area” or “I am fixing my house up to sell”. Like you…I mean no one goes out there and says “Hey I am looking for an agent”. [Chris]: Well like OK so whatever the message is whether that is cryptic or direct what do you do? [Christian]: Well usually there is over 150 replies by other desperate agents by the time I read it so I usually do nothing.   [Chris]: OK. Nate do you do anything on those posts? [Nathan]: It depends. And sometimes yes I will. But I try to spin it from what you said. What value I can give them upfront. And part of that I think it's just being honest you know. So…you know again if they choose you than great. I have never had it happen. Actually no. I take that back. I had person that I did speak with who actually didn't list their home but they appreciated that I was just honest. They felt that everybody reached out to him swung him some line of [censored] and I just told him what I felt. But we all know that's me so… [Chris]: Well you're good at that. So one of the things that has worked for me because I actually have gotten some business off of some of those posts. Everybody is gonna comment “Oh so and so is a great realtor. So and so is a great realtor”. What I have done in the past is I have reached out to them directly. Send them a private message.  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If I knew them personally I would send them an email or text. I would just say “Hey I saw your post online. I know you're gonna have a million people that are hounding you for business. Just be careful who you hire. Make sure you vet them properly. If you need anything just know that I am in real estate and…” Throw a couple of credential in there but just let them know that if they have any questions you know we're here to answer it.   I have had more conversations with people like that and I have received probably 6 or 7 referrals off of threads where people were like hundreds steep. I have received 6 or 7 of those referrals where I have messaged different agents and let them know the exact same thing. And people appreciate that. They don't like being sold. They don't like being pressured. And it's just a different environment. You get out of this competition thread and you get into this 1 on 1 message. And people like feeling like they're the center of the universe so you just make them feel that way.  [Nathan]: I agree.  [Chris]: Good so I like being right. [Christian]: So awkward silence yeah. How do you sum up this episode? What are your takeaways here other than don't be annoying? [Chris]: Yeah I mean we've gotta be careful with our message. It's so easy to get out there and just want to tell everybody that you're in real estate. But I think that agents need to put some thought behind what they're saying. And really think about how it's gonna come across to the people that they're delivering the message to.  We've talked about proving value throughout the history of the show. And I think that now more than ever that's gonna be more and more important. Especially with the rise of the high byer where they're getting ads saying “Hey it's so easy don't deal with all the hassle. Don't deal with being hounded by 100 agents when you comment online. Don't deal with staging or showing or any of that just let us sell it.” And people are so willing to avoid us and to avoid the showings and the solicitations that they're willing to give up 20-30% of the total value of their house just to not do that. And I think that that is absolutely insane. So we've got to shift our focus. Anything else guys? [Christian]: I would say if this is confusing to you as an agent forget everything that's you know your broker or the better agents told you about it in prospecting and hounding people and being top of mind. Just think to yourself “Hey would I like someone else to do this to me?”  If the answer is “No I don't want someone calling me pretending like they care about me just to ask if I am looking to buy or sell this year” well don't do it.  If you don't want someone knocking on your door without you inviting them over, don't [censored] do it. You know I mean like it's really not that hard. Stop making excuses about “Well this is my job and if I don't tell them or bug the [censored] out of people, if I am not annoying than I am not doing my job”. Well figure out how to do it not annoying or you will find another job to do.  [Chris]: And I'll just add on to that because calling is important. It's not to say “Don't call your prospects” but when you call them don't say “Hey do you…I can sell your house. I can do this”. [Nathan]: [laughter] Don't lead with that.  [Christian] Provide some value. Yeah. [Chris]: You know provide value. “Hey what can I do to help? I am sure you're getting a million calls right now” or “It's been a while since we've touched base. What…Where are you in the process?”. Make it about them. [Christian] Right and I will add. The value is not you calling them as an agent. You know I have had…I have seen online threads where basically an agent has been told their whole career to provide value but they don't know what that is. They think just them showing up is them providing value.  You know like it's…It reminds me of the scene from Office Space where you know the guy is being grilled like “What exactly did you say you do here?” “I AM A PEOPLE PERSON. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!” [laughter]. “I PROVIDE VALUE. WHY CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT?” Like you're probably not providing value if people can't see that. [Chris]: Exactly. [Nathan]: Amen. Cool.  [Chris]: Hey any final words? [Nathan]: No. Don't be annoying. I agree that what Christian said, if it would bother you than you probably shouldn't be doing that. Just what sounds like common sense is really not common sense or maybe is that whole adage of the easiest thing to do are the hardest things to get done.  [Chris]: I like it. Alright. Well everybody thank you so much for tuning into our 50th episode of Re:Think Real Estate. We appreciate you tuning in and listening. If you haven't yet please go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe so you never miss and episode and give us a 5 star review on iTunes and Google Play. We'll catch you next week. Cool.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this weeks episode of the Re:Think Real Estate  Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch, K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Last year, Idaho became the second state to require malpractice insurance for private practitioners — and the first to adopt an open-market model to serve their state bar members. How did year one go? ALPS Executive Vice President Chris Newbold checks in with Diane Minnich, Executive Director of the Idaho State Bar, to find out in this episode of ALPS In Brief Podcast. Transcript: CHRIS NEWBOLD: Good afternoon and welcome to another edition of ALPS in Brief. My name is Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS, standing in for Mark Bassingthwaighte, for a podcast around an issue that's growing in importance particularly out West which is requiring lawyers to have malpractice insurance. Today I'm joined by Diane Minnich who's the Executive Director of the Idaho State Bar. And Idaho recently became the second state in the country to require malpractice insurance for private practitioners as a condition of licensure. So, Diane, thanks for joining me today. DIANNE MINNICH: You're welcome. CHRIS: So let's just maybe talk about just kind of how the concept in Idaho got started. What was the mechanism that triggered the discussion and when did it take place? DIANNE: Any rule change that is proposed in Idaho has to be taken to the Idaho State Bar membership for a vote and so in this particular case our president at the time thought that requiring malpractice insurance of attorneys was the right thing to do. She had done some defense work and felt like sometimes the clients were not being served well by those lawyers who threatened to file bankruptcy if you filed a malpractice claim against them. So she submitted that issue to our membership in 2016 and we went to every ... We go around the state, visit with all the lawyers. They all have an opportunity to vote. We talked with them. We had the people who were concerned and people who were supportive and it passed by the membership. Once that happened then we submit that proposal to the Supreme Court and they adopted it in 2017. In 2018 licensing, which is this year, was the first year that it was implemented for all lawyers that were representing private clients in Idaho. CHRIS: Okay. Now, the other state that requires malpractice insurance is Oregon and I think your model is a little bit different than the Oregon model. Talk to us about what model you adopted and why. DIANNE: The model we have is just basically open market, that every lawyer that represents private clients is required to obtain malpractice insurance in a 300 ... 100, 300 are the limits. We looked at the Oregon model in the past and I think our population of lawyers is just not large enough to support that particular model and so we determined that to try it out in the ... Let everybody try to find the insurance themselves and determine what they want to pay and who they want to go with, who they want as their carrier, was the best approach for us given our size. CHRIS: Okay, so you required it of your lawyers to go into the open market and was everybody who was required to get insurance, were they able to secure insurance? DIANNE: As far as we know everyone that was required under the rule to obtain insurance has done so. We had some that it took some time to do so. There were some concerns about cost and so some people said they couldn't get it and the real issue was the cost. We've learned since then there have been a few lawyers who didn't re-up their licensing because they didn't have insurance and we're going to encourage them to go ahead and do the licensing and then we'll work with them on insurance. I think there was a group of lawyers who were on the verge of retirement who, having to obtain insurance at this point in their career, made a choice to not continue to practice. Most of those that made that choice were close to retirement anyway and it sort of was the thing that pushed them over that to make that final decision which is, "Okay, I'm getting ready to retire. Now I'm going to do so." CHRIS: How many lawyers in Idaho are there and how many are kind of required to abide by the new rule? DIANNE: Our total membership is about 6,500. The active members is 4,000 and I think we determined that lawyers subject to the rule was in the 3,000 range, a little over 3,000. CHRIS: Okay. And so again, you were the first one in the country to kind of really go down the road of an open market model. Upon reflection now that you went through one cycle, right? DIANNE: Yes. CHRIS: Getting ready to go into a second year of a cycle. Just your general impressions of how you felt like it went and kind of the response from the membership. DIANE: We think it went relatively well. Everyone, like I said, who was required did obtain insurance. The questions we had were legitimate ones. We get a few calls from people that just are opposed to the concept but many of the questions were, house counsel, I'm a corporate counsel. How do I fit into the mix?" Part-time practice is an issue. "I'm only going to practice part time. Do I need insurance?" Pro bono. Those things I think we were able to deal with and those were where most of the questions came from lawyers in terms of just trying to understand. Our rule is very simple. Doesn't have any exceptions, doesn't have a lot of pieces and moving parts so in some ways that's good because it allowed us some flexibility to make decisions about how we handle certain issues. This year we revised the form some. We're ready to answer questions. We revised the FAQ to be a little bit more in line with the questions that were asked. I think we're ready to go. The lawyers were really, even those that are opposed to the concept were very respectful and professional about it. Once you explain to them how it works most of them were very thankful. "Thank you for answering my question", and went off and found insurance. CHRIS: Do you know the number of uninsured lawyers that you generally had in Idaho before the rule was enacted? DIANNE: Our best guess ... We had mandatory disclosure, whether or not you have insurance prior to this and have had it for a while, 10, 12 years. And so we figured in the range of 15 to 20%. It's hard to tell because our records were ... You have to pull out public attorneys out of the requirement of malpractice so kind of manipulate those. Statistics to try to figure out who really should have and shouldn't but I'm thinking 15 to 20% of the lawyers who are now required to have it did not have it prior to this time. CHRIS: Do you think the majority of those were probably more solo attorneys versus those in firms or ...? DIANNE: Most of them are either solo or small practices, yes. CHRIS: One of the things that sometimes people who don't have malpractice insurance that are coming into the market, obviously a big question is price, right? Any reflections on the price point in which people ultimately had to pay to come into the market? DIANNE: We asked lawyers when they ... They have to submit proof that they have insurance. So a dec page or a letter from the insurance company. We ask them to redact their premium amount and many did, many did not. We have a general idea and I talked to a lot of people on the phone anecdotally. From a part-time practice you know, it started anywhere from 500 up. I think of when I did sort of a random look at what people had it appears that in the two to three thousand dollar range is probably where most of it ... On a solo practice — a person — that was probably the average. CHRIS: Yeah, I guess I know that. Obviously we enjoy a relationship with the Idaho State Bar in terms of your endorsed carrier. Oftentimes those coming into the marketplace without any insurance are coming in without any kind of exposure ... DIANNE: Right. CHRIS: ... in terms of their entry point into the market was oftentimes enables them to get a credit which pushes the price down at least early on in their career and then as they gain more exposure then the price ultimately goes up. DIANNE: Yeah and I think that's the question we're going to have this year, is the price is going to go up for a lot of the people that got it for the first time. Just being able to answer that question. Letting them understand that the prior risk has to be there as part of the policy. Those I think are going to be what we're going to deal with in terms of questions from lawyers this year. Everyone has it and one would assume they can go ahead and just re-up their insurance. The price is probably still going to become an issue. CHRIS: Yeah, yeah. The Idaho State Bar is a regulatory entity, yes? DIANNE: Yes. CHRIS: And so as you think about the ... I guess I'm curious on how you see this particular rule falling into your regulatory authority and ultimately what was the rule enacted to protect or prevent? DIANNE: I think the ... Couple things, one is the bottom line is it does protect the public in terms of the clients who have lawyers and if something happens that falls into the arena of a malpractice claim that they have an option in terms of to do something about that. I also think in general if you talk to people, they assume lawyers do have insurance. It's interesting how many people I've said it to that were not lawyers that said, "Oh, I thought everyone did." And so I think part of that is just a perception that that's something that is the right thing to do and that lawyers, like other professions, do and for the most part in this country they don't. And I think it protects lawyers too at some level. You know, if a lawyer has a client who's going to file a claim, they have some coverage too in case that is not legitimate or they need help or even if they did do something wrong. It can be fixed because sometimes lawyers make mistakes. CHRIS: Yeah. DIANE: And then that can be covered for them. CHRIS: Yeah. Well, good. As you know, there are other states around the country that are also kind of taking a look at enacting mandatory malpractice. Nevada was looking at it. Washington's looking at it, California's looking at it. Any advice or counsel to those other Bars that might think that this is the right type of rule that would protect the public and be important in terms of preserving confidence in the legal system? DIANE: I mean, I think all of those things are true. I think from a Bar's perspective it's the right thing to do. It's doable whether you want to go with an Oregon model or our model. But it's a lot of work. I think from an administrative standpoint, if you are a Bar, especially a larger one than we are, the amount of time and effort it's going to take to implement something like this is something you have to take into consideration. These things don't just happen and you want to do it right. We, one of my lawyers and I, we answered all the questions ourselves because we wanted lawyers to know, "We're listening to you. We're going to try to solve your problem. We're going to try to figure out how you fit into the rule." And we can do that in a small state, you know, be able to have that personal customer service so that they're feeling like, "Yeah, we have to do this but they're listening to me and helping me get to the place that I need to be in terms of obtaining insurance." CHRIS: Yeah. One final question, as the court enacted the rule, you obviously then had a period where I think you tried to do a significant amount of education, right? Before ... DIANE: Right. CHRIS: Because this is all part of the annual dues? DIANE: License fees. CHRIS: License fees? DIANE: Well, it's part of licensing requirements. Obviously they don't pay anything to us but ... CHRIS: So talk to us about just kind of what you did in that lead-up period because I think that will be important for others thinking about it. DIANE: We used all of our communication avenues, our magazine. I have an article, we have a weekly bulletin. And we wrote letters directly to everyone that we could determine should have it and didn't. Like we could figure out through our database and who said, "I don't have insurance" through the mandatory disclosure. We sent personalized letters to each of those people and said, "Okay. Here's the deal. Here's what's going to happen next. From our records you indicate you don't have it." So that they knew ahead of time, like six months out, that that's what was going to happen next. CHRIS: Well, good. Diane, anything else that you'd like to add before we wrap this podcast up? DIANE: I don't think so. I think it went ... It went more smoothly than I anticipated it and I'm just going to be interested to see how year two goes. CHRIS: Yeah. I mean, a couple of adjectives you threw out there was doable, somewhat smooth, not a lot of negative member feedback. Obviously some people weren't thrilled to have to kind of be subject to the new rule but it seemed to go well for Idaho. DIANE: Yes, it did. CHRIS: Good. Well, thank you, Diane. I appreciate your time today and appreciate the audience for listening in. If you have any other ideas for upcoming ALPS podcasts, feel free to let us know. Thanks and goodbye.

  Jeff Bunn, lawyer, wellness expert and owner of the Mindful Law Coaching and Consulting Group, presents the business case for investing in attorney wellness. As he sits down with ALPS Executive Vice President, Chris Newbold, Jeff lays out why making mindfulness a priority in the legal profession makes sense not just from the health standpoint of health, but also the economics of the practice of law. To learn more about all areas of attorney wellness, visit the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being's Resource Page, featuring the report and more information on what is happening in your state. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is usually hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. This episode is hosted by Chris Newbold, ALPS Executive Vice President. Transcript: CHRIS: All right. Welcome. This is Chris Newbold. Welcome to another version of the ALPS podcast ALPS in Brief. I'm sitting here in downtown Chicago with one of the experts in the field of wellness, Jeff Bunn, who is the owner of the Mindful Law Coaching and Consulting Group. Had a chance to meet Jeff a few weeks ago and he's doing some wonderful work in the field. Today we're going to talk about the business case for wellness and why that makes good sense for firms, law firms, and the legal profession in general. Maybe what we'll do is start, Jeff, by just having you just introduce yourself and what gives you an interest in this particular area. I know you've had a distinguished legal career as well. Maybe just a little context on who you are. JEFF: Absolutely. I'd be happy. Thanks very much for inviting me, Chris. It's a delight to speak with you. My focus is really mindfulness, which is a little piece of the wellness pie, if you will. I happen to think it's a great and very important issue. It's an issue that gets a lot of play, a lot of thought, a lot of curiosity. My story very briefly, I started ... I used to be like your Type A trial guy, long distance running. I was walking the dog one day, slipped on some black ice, got my knee scoped, and long story short couldn't run anymore. I was looking for something that was a low impact, no impact alternative to running. Little did I realize that I used to go out ... When I talk about running I'm talking about an hour or two hours kind of thing. It was meditation for me. What I got into, because of my injury, was yoga. A lot of the men and women that I met practicing yoga talk about not only the poses and the practice but also other things that are more spiritual. I just found that that kind of resonated for me. I took a training session, a meditation training session that is, and I just got into it. Now I'm not a proselytizer. I'm not out there banging the drum for being a spiritual guru. Quite to the contrary, I think that there are a lot of aspects of mindfulness, which is a piece of a larger tradition, like the Buddhist tradition in particular, that I think can be ... It's not an all or nothing proposition as a lot of people, men and women who I respect, feel a great deal of affection for and know. They're kind of an all or nothing ... You're either all in or you're not. I get that. I understand it but I do believe that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There are aspects of that faith or spiritual practice, Buddhism, mindfulness in particular, that can have a business application. My saying is, which I ripped off from Dan Harris who is a great guy, is a news anchor that you or some of your listeners may know of, also the author of a great book, 10% Happier. It's an old book now. He's written more recently. It's about mindfulness and how it changed him. Dan came up with a description of what is mindfulness? Well, if you ask 50 different people you're going to get 50 different definitions. He came up with a great soundbite that just works for me, "Simple, secular, scientific". That's really what it is. To me, it's brain training. Mindfulness, that aspect of a broader practice, can be segmented, can be applied to the business world in terms of helping us focus our attention, prioritize our distractions, and the like. CHRIS: That's the key to it then is the ability? I mean, obviously we know that most lawyers in practice are go, go, go, busy, busy, busy, right? JEFF: Yup. Yup. CHRIS: The value proposition of mindfulness comes in where? JEFF: I think in terms of being able to again focus our attention and then prioritize distractions. There are distractions like emails, telephone calls, partners hanging out with a cup of coffee in the doorway wanting to talk about whatever. Yet we have a filing that we have to get done by such and such a time. Or we have a meeting coming up in 20 minutes and we need to think about that. Or a phone call or what have you. I think that there are a lot of ... I think of it in terms of physical fitness and mental fitness. Everybody gets the idea of physical fitness now. As employee benefits go it's not a stretch at all to have firms or businesses help their employees deal with the ... They'll make contributions towards their monthly gym dues or what have you. Well, let's start taking care of our minds as well as our bodies. I think if you think of mindfulness as not just vague woo woo kind of thing but actually very specific brain training. Attention, prioritizing distractions ... The distractions will come but if one learns to focus one's attention in the midst of all the distractions that come that's going to make you a better lawyer. It'll make you a better professional. Therefore, I think it has ... Those practices, while it might not seem obvious, have an application in the business world. CHRIS: Yeah. We had a chance to be on a panel a couple of weeks ago. I think you've been able to crystallize as succinctly as I've been able to hear it about just the value of mindfulness and the value that it can bring ... If I'm a senior partner at a law firm build the case for me for why this is a good path to pursue. Often times we hear wellness and we think, "Oh, somebody is taking a two hour lunch," which for a lot of senior partners means that's less billable hours, right? JEFF: Yeah. CHRIS: It's a little bit of a ... I think you've been able to turn it on its head a little bit and say, "There are some real definitive business case elements to thinking about wellness, thinking about mindfulness." I'd love for you to present that for our audience. JEFF: Sure. I'd be happy to do that. It really has been a part of my journey. If I was having a conversation with you and you'd ask me, "What is mindfulness?" I'd start talking to you about what mindfulness is but in your mind you could just see people's eyes glaze over. They're just thinking it's all woo woo and, "Oh, Jeff has lost it. He's gone around the bend." I get that. It was very frustrating at first because I felt like I was banging my head against the wall trying to convince people of something that they were disinclined to believe. Then I started thinking, you know, if you can change the conversation ... Don't talk about something that whoever you're speaking to may think of as woo woo, as something vague and ill-defined with a lot of negative connotations. Let's talk about things that we do understand that have real meaning for us. That's how I started thinking about is there such a thing as a business case for mindfulness. I think there is. As I've thought about it I've come up with ... There are five areas that I touched upon that I alluded to when you and I last met ... I'm sure there are more. It just requires more thought. Just knocking them off and here I'm going to call myself out here, I better remember this, recruiting, retention, insurance costs, CLE costs, and basically productivity, which kind of ties all those together. I think in terms of business, hard dollars, the idea of recruiting younger men and women. How does one law firm stand out from the crowd? How does one distinguish one's self? If a recruiter is able to say, "We value the minds of the men and women who work for us, old and young, and we put our money where our mouth is" that's going to help you tell a story that's going to hopefully help you recruit the best and the brightest to your firm. CHRIS: Particularly with this generation, right? JEFF: Absolutely. CHRIS: One that's I think coming into the legal profession with a sense of, "Obviously I want to do incredible work as a new lawyer but I also want to maintain a better work/life balance." JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I have said and I still maintain that a law firm's greatest asset is its lawyer's minds. If you can begin to make a case, a real case, not just lip service, but a real case that we value our lawyer's minds, we want to protect them and the way we protect them is help them be happier, help them live a life that's more fulfilling, then that's a good thing for them and it's good for us as well, which really gets to the idea of retention. If men and women who are at a law firm five, six, seven years out instead of saying, "I'm going to go in-house. I'm going to go do something else. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, but I'm done doing this, the law firm thing." Well, what a cost. The cost to the law firm of replacing the talent is huge. CHRIS: Huge. JEFF: It's huge. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. You lose in terms of continuity, of service to clients. You lose potentially the business of some clients. There's just nothing good I would submit that accrues to a law firm by virtue of a departure of a seasoned professional. I think it behooves a law firm to do what it can to help keep the men and women it has been developing. Recruiting is a big issue but retention I think is a huge issue. I think also insurance costs and kudos to ALPS for recognizing that. I think that both in the area of health costs and perhaps professional liability costs it can be having a real committed, defined program can help deal with both health costs and professional liability costs. Very quickly on the health thing. One might question, "How does taking care of your mind translate into benefits that can accrue to you physically? To your body?" What I mentioned in the talk that you and I participated in recently was a Wall Street Journal article that was two or three weeks ago. Maybe a month at best. That was talking about mindfulness app developers that have begun the process of applying through the FDA for approval of some of their apps as medical devices. Because, now we get into the science that I won't bore you or your listeners with now, the science behind all of this ... If you go to Aetna is a big company that has embraced mindfulness. If you have any interest at all go to their website. Aetna's got a great ... CHRIS: Scientific studies are clearly there now. JEFF: Big time. Big time. On the subject of science too I'm a little bit off-topic here but I'll go there, the idea of neuroplasticity. Relevance for younger men and women in terms of recruiting and retention that's I think something that firms need to pay attention to but what about their older people? People like me? CHRIS: Yeah. JEFF: Why would I care? Well, forget about me but just as an example as a human being who is 65 years old, neuroplasticity, which has driven a lot of the science and a lot of studies, is really the answer. The concept behind neuroplasticity is that regardless of one's age, it's not just babies, it can be 65 year old people, we can rewire our brains. We can learn new things. The brain is a live, malleable, plastic thing. There are good reasons why even older people can and should engage in mindfulness because it relates to neuroplasticity and the ability to learn. Again, back to ... CHRIS: CLE and then productivity. JEFF: Right. Now we've got CLE and productivity. CLE, a lot of states have started ... Well, there are at least a handful, maybe 10, states now that have adopted ABA standards. The ABA did a great service to our profession by appointing the National Task Force on Wellbeing, which authored a report. It's a lengthy report, as you know very well. 70-ish pages including the appendices. It's a great read, by the way. I heartily commend it to anybody who is interested in the topic. Apropos of that task force findings there have been recent changes recommended, not yet adopted by all states but it's just a matter of time, it will be, that include among CLE a requirement that men and women in the legal profession study programs that are either mental health, substance abuse, diversity and inclusion. I would suggest to you that I think in terms of ... Those are costs that are typically borne by a law firm that instituting a program will help a firm qualify and train their people in that area. All of which gets to the issue of productivity, which just makes people who are happier and are better balanced work better. Not longer. The billable hour is still with us. There's going to be plenty of emphasis placed on that by the business people but allowing and putting into place programs that help our men and women work better as opposed to longer ... CHRIS: There's no doubt that to be a good lawyer one has to be a healthy lawyer, right? The more that we encourage those types of cultures I think the more that we're going to see the economic return of that. JEFF: Absolutely. Just in conclusion, it occurs to me ... I think I mentioned this too earlier that I think the airlines really get it right when we all fly for business or pleasure and part of the opening instructions are always, "If in the unlikely event of a water landing or whatever take care of yourself first. Put your mask on first and then take care of other people." CHRIS: Yeah. JEFF: Same concept applies to lawyers. If we learn to take care of ourselves, physically and mentally, we'll do a better job for our clients. CHRIS: Awesome. Well, Jeff, if people want to get a hold of you and want to talk a little bit more about the mindfulness or the wellness things that you are working on how can they reach you? JEFF: Love to do that. Thank you for asking. Probably the best way is to deal with my email address. Right now it's J Bunn Law, J B-U-N-N, Law at Gmail dot com. Just bang me out an email. Whatever is on your mind. I obviously like to talk about this stuff. I'd be delighted to do just that. CHRIS: Good. Well, thank you, Jeff. Thank you listeners. Again, if you have any topics of interest that you'd like us to focus on an upcoming podcast please let us know. Thank you. JEFF: Chris, thanks. Okay.   Jeffrey H. Bunn is a retired litigation attorney, who practiced in both State and Federal courts for nearly 40 years, and was previously member of a three-person Management Committee for a Chicago law firm. “I'm one of us. I've represented many different clients in a variety of civil matters, was a former ethics partner and have managed (and been managed by) others. I understand how lawyers and law firms operate. I also understand business and business people. And I'm a regular meditator, trained in the vipassana tradition”. Jeff was prior chair of the Chicago Bar Association (“CBA”) Commercial Litigation committee, and more recently, the founder and chair of the CBA committee on Mindfulness and the Law. Jeff was the initial vice-chair of the Lawyers' Assistance Program (“LAP”) Illinois Task Force for Lawyer Well-Being (modeled after the National Task Force that was formed by the American Bar Association (“ABA”), which issued a written Report in late 2017). He has led guided meditation sessions for the American Association of Law Schools (“AALS”), and the State Bar of Nevada. In addition, Jeff has presented on matters concerning the incorporation of mindfulness and meditation into the practice of law for the CBA, Chicago Volunteer Legal Services (“CVLS”) and the National Association of Bar Executives (“NABE”), as well as other professional organizations. Jeff was previous blogger-in-chief of the, “The Mindful Law Guy” blog, and has written a book (Canary In The Coalmine) that is submitted for publication, as well as a screenplay (The Meditation Hesitation Blues), that has been submitted for sale and production.

www.hrcoaching.com/sbh112 How do your employees feel when they walk into your office space? You can feel what it's like to work for an organization the minute you walk into the building. Learn how you can design a better culture for your office from my guest today, Chris Good from One Workplace More from Chris: https://www.instagram.com/cgooddesign https://www.instagram.com/oneworkplace/ Book a time to ask Brad a question here: www.schedulewithbrad.com Connect with Brad Owens at www.bradowens.com More episodes, free downloads and articles at www.hrcoaching.com Podcast Disclaimer: www.hrcoaching.com/podcastdisclaimer

"Negrow Disco was more of an ode to people, the queer Black and brown folks that started disco. Soul Bounce was kind of more of me coming and establishing my sound / genre. And BANBA is just people getting to know me more." South Side rapper Ric Wilson joined SSW's Olivia Obineme and Chris Good in studio to talk about everything from the new EP BANBA to modeling to prison abolition. Music in this segment is from Ric Wilson's BANBA, which drops May 18. Find more at ricwilsonmusic.com South Side Weekly Radio airs live on Tuesdays from 3-4pm at WHPK 88.5 FM - The Pride of the South Side - with your hosts Andrew Koski, Sam Larsen, and Olivia Obineme. The bumper at the beginning featured Chicago scholar, artist, and activist Eve Ewing and was produced by Jed Lickerman. For more news, visit www.southsideweekly.com.

This is the official podcast of the Clean Water Campaign for Michigan. On this episode, campaign communications director Chris Good interviews Lisa Wozniak from the Michigan League of Conservation Voters. This episode is sponsored by Earthwork Music artist Friends With the Weather. /// The Clean Water Campaign for Michigan seeks to place clean water issues front and center in the year building up to the 2018 elections by urging every candidate running for public office to make a strong stand on critical issues affecting Michigan’s waters. Using storytelling and music events across the state to amplify the groundswell of public support for clean water issues, this campaign is driven by Michiganders from all walks of life who share a similar priority: protection of our water, a most vital resource. /// EPISODE 3: / Interview with Lisa Wozniak / Directed by Chris Good / Sponsored by Friends with the Weather / Produced, edited and mixed by Dan Rickabus / Narrators - Alex Smith, Dan Rickabus / Music - Seth Bernard and Mike Savina / featuring "Light Awakes" by Friends with the Weather

Recorded from the Washington State Bar Association offices in Seattle, ALPS Executive Vice President, Chris Newbold, sits down with WSBA Executive Director, Paula Littlewood to discuss Washington's pioneering efforts in improving access to justice through the Limited Legal License Technician (LLLT) licensure. Today there are 80-90% of people with civil legal problems, particularly people in a lower income bracket, who don't or are unable to receive help from a lawyer. Hear about where the program is today, its foundational principles and why it is being closely watched nationally as a forward-thinking solution by access to justice advocates as the first independent paraprofessional license in the legal profession in the United States. ALPS In Brief, The ALPS Risk Management Podcast, is usually hosted by ALPS Risk Manager, Mark Bassingthwaighte. This episode is hosted by Chris Newbold, ALPS Executive Vice President.   Transcript: CHRIS: Okay. Welcome. Thanks for joining us for another episode of ALPS in Brief. My name is Chris Newbold. I am Executive Vice President of ALPS. Today I'm sitting in downtown Seattle in the offices of the Washington State Bar Association with a colleague and a friend, Paula Littlewood, who's the Executive Director of the Washington State Bar Association. I want to talk about a subject that is trending nationally, which is thinking about how we battle access to justice issues and one of the innovative programs that the Washington State Bar is involved with, which is the triple L.T. program, the Limited Legal License Technician. Before we start, Paula, if you could introduce yourself, your role, and what the Washington State Bar does. PAULA: I am Paula Littlewood, Executive Director of the Washington State Bar Association. I've been here about 15 years. The Washington State Bar is what's known as an integrative bar, so we are the regulatory agency operating under delegated authority from the Washington Supreme Court to regulate all licensed legal professionals in the State of Washington.  We are also the professional association supporting our members as they do their work and serve the public. CHRIS: Okay. One of the issues that we're really focusing on today is the issue of access to justice. We know that 80 to 90% of folks with civil legal problems in the United States, particularly those of low income, never receive help from a lawyer. I know that one of the things that you've been trying to do, as part of your job here in Washington, is to think about that challenge and to come up with solutions. One of the ways that you've done that is a program that, if you go out to the National Bar Association regional bar gatherings, it's hard not to hear about this particular subject that you all are at the forefront of. Talk about what the triple L.T. program is and why it's unique and why it's different when you think about the context of alternative legal services. PAULA: Probably the first thing I'd say is it's not a program. It's a license. What we are doing in Washington State is licensing the first independent paraprofessional in the legal profession in the United States. In many states you might be familiar with a nurse practitioner in the medical field. Nurse practitioners in many states, in our state, are licensed to work independently of the doctor to give medical advice up to a certain point. When they reach the edge of their license, and the scope of their responsibility that they're licensed to do, they refer the patient on to the doctor.  Triple L.T. is the exact same concept in the legal field. A triple L.T. is licensed. They have a limited license, hence the name limited license legal technician, to work independently. If they choose, open their own practice separate from a lawyer, to provide legal advice in certain practice areas. The Supreme Court rule that creates this license is designed to be applied in various practice areas. The first practice area that the triple L.T.s are licensed in in Washington State is family law. One of the things that the Supreme Court's triple L.T. board is exploring now is what the next practice area will be. It's envisioned that some triple L.T.s may want to get licensed in multiple areas or there may be people that aren't interested in family law but, if a different practice area comes on line, they may choose to become a triple L.T. in that practice area. I think it's important to distinguish the triple L.T. from other alternative service providers that we all are familiar with nationwide. We have document preparers. We have courthouse facilitators. We have the New York navigators who are all critical in helping service the public. The different with the triple L.T. is they are licensed to give legal advice just like Chris and I are as lawyers. We actually don't consider triple L.T.s non-lawyers because they have a license to practice law from the State Supreme Court just like I do. It's just that they have a limited license and can only provide services up to a certain amount, and then by court rule are required to refer the client on to a lawyer. CHRIS: Okay. What was the catalyst for the program? Who provided the thought leadership in coming up with the concept? PAULA: It's a two-track approach that it came in on. There was a Supreme Court board. The Washington Supreme Court had a board known as the Practice Law Board.  They were looking at unauthorized practice law and how can we deal with the unauthorized practice law? That was one track that brought us the triple L.T. They were trying to figure out how do you provide to the consumer qualified and regulated legal service providers? At the same time, our Washington Supreme Court had commissioned a civil legal needs study, which quantified the unmet need. Chris referenced this at the beginning of our talk, the unmet need in our country. The civil legal needs study, we knew we had a lot of unmet needs, but it gave us an actual quantification that 80 to 85% of low and moderate-income folks were going without the representation that they needed in critical civil matters. Between those two things, the need to get more qualified and regulated providers into the marketplace, and the staggering unmet need, the Practice Law Board worked for about eight years and recommended to the Washington Supreme Court the creation of this limited license legal technician license. The court adopted the rule in 2012, and we were off to the races. CHRIS: Okay. When was the first class of those applying for licensure? PAULA: It was about two years later. When the court created the license, they also created the Limited License Legal Technician Board.  The Supreme Court needed a board that would figure out how the license would run. As the court's regulatory agency, we staff and fund that board. We work together because we're the regulator and they're the Supreme Court's board setting all the policy. It took two years. If you think about what the triple L.T. board was doing, they were creating a new profession out of whole cloth. When you hear the chair of the triple L.T. board talk about it, he'll say, "It wasn't like we could go to California or New York and pull their rule off the shelf and say okay let's modify it to fit in Washington." They had to define the scope of family law and what these folks would be allowed to do. We had to design a curriculum to train them. We had to design a bar exam. We were creating a whole profession. It took about two years until we actually had candidates in the process being trained. We're about 2012 to 2018, we're about six years in. Right now we have 27 who are licensed. We have another 60 or so that are completing education and admission requirements. Then we probably have a couple hundred coming up through the community colleges. The education happens at two levels. There's what we call a core education at the community college level. Once they complete that, then they can move on to the practice area education, which is offered through the University of Washington Law School. We've had people say to us, "That's all you have?" We're saying, "Well, we started from ground zero." I think, once it starts picking up momentum, we'll ... CHRIS: Yeah. One of the things that we found very interesting about the class of folks that you are licensing is just that you require them to have malpractice insurance. ALPS, as the endorsed carrier of the Washington State Bar, actually found it to be a very appealing risk group because of the extensiveness of the educational requirements that you place upon these folks who aren't going to law school but, I would venture to say, are actually more qualified and trained coming out of their program than most folks coming out of law school. I wanted you to just comment on just the extensiveness of the training that your triple L.T.s have to engage in to earn this distinction. PAULA: One of the University of Washington law professors said the exact same thing. When we came to the end of developing the family law practice area curriculum, he said, "These folks are going to be better trained in family law than our JDs coming out."  I went to law school and never took family law. I could have started practicing family law the day I received my license. The family law training is 15 credits. Five credits are just basic family law, probably what a lot of us, if I had, would have taken them in school. The next 10 credits drill down very deeply into the actual scope. One of the most important things ... This is where I, as chief regulatory counsel and chief disciplinary counsel, was probably most involved was in this training aspect. We wanted to make sure these folks understood the scope of their authority. Most importantly, when they've come to the edge of it and gone beyond it. Actually, when we first took the curriculum to the triple L.T. board, the triple L.T. board said, "Wait a minute. You're training them to do things they can't do." We said, "Yeah. We have to expose them to things that they can't do so they understand when they've crossed the line." Each class is twin taught by a law professor and a practitioner. When I think back to my own law school experience, if somebody would have been giving me the doctrine and, at the same time, saying, "Here's what it's going to look like on the ground." It would have been really helpful. Gonzaga is also helping teach the classes. I would be remiss to not thank ALPS for stepping in. As Chris mentioned, we do require malpractice insurance for the triple L.Ts. We do not yet in Washington require that for lawyers. We had talked to a couple of insurance carriers. They said exactly what Chris said. "Huh. These guys are less risk, better trained, narrower scope." Whereas, lawyers can ... CHRIS: Go everywhere. PAULA: Go everywhere.  We thank ALPS hugely for stepping in and believing in the license and believing in the caliber of providers we're turning out. CHRIS: As you think about the future, what do you think is the outlook for the program and for the ... PAULA: For the license. CHRIS: For the license. I do think it's one of those that's very unique nationally. A lot of people are keeping their eyes on it. Talk about just what your outlook is for the license here in Washington, and what you see down the road in terms of the many speaking engagements you've done nationally in terms of thinking about where other states may go on this issue? PAULA: There's a number of states that are looking at it. Utah is probably the closest. Their rule is drafted. I think they're working on development of their exam. I think they're calling them limited license practitioner ... I can't remember. It's a little bit different name. Oregon has had two task forces recommend that they do it. We'll just wait and see when they get to putting rubber to the road. New Mexico is looking at it. California jumped in the water right behind us. They were moving pretty quickly, but I think they've got other issues they're dealing with right now. Minnesota was looking at it. Florida. I'm trying to think. Montana looked at it. I'll tell you where I've been traveling a lot is Canada. We've probably been to four or five provinces now that are quite interested in a number of their provinces. I think in particular, states where there's a lot of rural population. We all know it's getting more and more difficult to recruit lawyers into the rural areas. I think there's a lot of states and some of these provinces that are seeing that the triple L.T. might be an option to serve rural areas. The nice thing for the triple L.T. is, since they go to a community college for the first part of their education, they get to stay in their community. Right? CHRIS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). PAULA: The practice area education that's offered by the law school is streamed, so you can actually be anywhere to take the law school classes. They're synchronous, so it's not like they're downloading podcasts at three in the morning. We've taught in the classes. It's very interactive. The students are there. They're chatting at you. I think a lot of states, and definitely these provinces, are looking at a possible solution for servicing rural populations. CHRIS: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Is there anything that's surprised you about the license as it's now moved from concept to regulatory infrastructure to an actual class of folks that you're regulating? PAULA: There are a couple of things. One was the collaborations that developed. One was our three law schools saying, "Don't don't have [inaudible 00:13:51] develop the curriculum. We'll do it together." That's was really fun. We worked with the three law schools in the state to develop the family law curriculum. Then the collaboration between the community colleges and the law schools. There were these collaborations that we never anticipated that were really fun. They really came together and said, "How are we going to make this the best license possible?" It created a culture of innovation in Washington. As you know, the bar and a lot of people were very opposed to this right up until the bitter end. Once the Supreme Court spoke, once the Supreme Court passed the rule and said this is the direction we're going, we need to do this for the public, it really, in a lot of ways, created a culture of innovation. We had people coming to us saying, "Have you thought about the triple L.T. in this area or that area?" We had the Washington Association of Prosecuting Attorneys came and said, there's some parenting things where we think triple L.T.s might be helpful. The ALJs have approached us. That was exciting. Not to say we don't still have people that question the idea or are suspicious. County bars have started embracing them, the members of the county bars. The Washington State Bar two years ago, the Board of Governors voted to make triple L.T.s members of the bar. That's all been super exciting. CHRIS: Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was interesting. I mean, you and I, we were observers of legal trends. Our profession is not the fastest to adapt to emerging challenges that society thrusts upon us. I thought it was interesting going back to the Supreme Court order that started the license. Here's the quote. "We have a duty to ensure the public can access affordable legal and law-related services, and that they are not left to fall prey to the perils of the unregulated marketplace." It just seems like that's the type of ... Your Supreme Court, frankly, went out on a limb a little bit and said, "You know what? We think that there is something to be said for creating this opportunity." It's interesting to now watch, six years later, where you're at now and where you hope to go. PAULA: Yes. We tell everybody every place where we speak about it, "Come on in. The water is fine." CHRIS: Good. Thank you, Paula. I appreciate your time. Fascinating subject. As we think about access to justice and alternative legal services, it's clearly an issue that observers are going to be watching from around the country. PAULA: Great. Thank you. CHRIS: Thank you.  

In this podcast the gang sits down with Chris Good from The Dover Honing Co to discuss barbering on the 8th and G block but all that happened was Mondi and I just argued with each other.

This week welcome to the show Chris Tate. He is a coach who combines the latest scientific research with a process of self-discovery that provides people with the knowledge, skills and support necessary to experience a life full of abundance. He applies and teaches skills like metacognition and tools like meditation to recondition the body and subconscious mind to develop new habits and beliefs. Questions we ask in this episode: After 17 years in the corporate world, how did you make the transition into coaching? What is neuroscience? What is metacognition? How do we apply metacognition? How is it going to benefit our lives? What are the 3 key things we could start today, to enhance our lives? Shop: http://shop.180nutrition.com.au/ Our fantastic guest is Mr. Chris Tate. Now Chris … This was genuinely a podcast that was close to my heart and I was very, very excited about him. Just to fill you in the picture a bit. I’ve first met Chris working at a Dr. Joe Dispenza workshop last year and from that point he’s become a good friend and a mentor to me as well. I love his work and everything, what he’s about and what he’s doing. [00:01:00] Essentially, what Chris does is coach the understanding of neuroscience, metacognition, quantum physics, and meditation, so we can use these new ways to create change in our lives. Ultimately it’s the science of creating change if we’re feeling trapped, if we’re feeling a bit stuck in our lives or we want to make change or we’re in a to stress-response all the time, Chris has the tools and the understanding and the background behind it, of what’s actually going on, the chemical level within the body, and then once we have that understanding how we can actually create real changes in our lives. [00:02:00] Now I’ve been doing the work personally for over a year and it has been a game-changer for me. There are some big words that is used, neuroscience, metacognition, don’t worry about all of that, once we get into the topic today it will become much clearer. Once you can get beyond that the stuff is actually quite simple, but it’s not necessarily easy to implement because it’s quite challenging, but a phenomenal episode. Chris is a great guy, I’m so excited about being able to give this episode to you today and enjoy it. It might be one you might need to listen to a couple of times of course, just for it to sink in. I’m certainly going to listen to it again after I finish recording this, once it’s up on iTunes as well. Don’t forget as well, guys, I’ll just quickly mention, I haven’t mentioned it for a while, we do, do this in video and they are transcribed as well, so if you want to just sit down and see our pretty faces for a while instead. We do have different mediums, and of course the transcripts can be read and that’s all back on 180nutrition.com.au, and of course we’ve got a host of other things there as well from free downloads to [inaudible 00:02:23] articles and everything to the products. You name it, it’s all in there. [00:03:00] If you’ve never been back there before go on have a sniff around and see what you think, and simply drop us an e-mail as well, and of course if you get a lot out of this podcast please share it on with someone that you think might benefit from this and get them to listen to it, because it is changing people’s lives and it’s phenomenal. By leaving a review on iTunes as well and subscribing to the podcast and five-starring it, it’s a simple action, but it really helps spread this message along with us. Everything you do, guys, is greatly appreciated and I hope you’re enjoying the episodes that we are bringing to you because I’m pumped, I’m loving it. We’ve got some amazing guests coming up very shortly too, including Mark Divine, Gregg Braden, and Amy Myers as well, are all booked in, and there’s more coming up as well. Anyway, I’ve got to stop talking, let’s go over to Chris Tate. This is awesome, enjoy. Hey, this is Guy Lawrence, I’m joined with Stuart Cooke as always. Hey Stu, good morning. Stu Good morning, Guy. Guy Our awesome guest today is Mr. Christ Tate, and I should say good afternoon over there. Hey, mate. Chris Hey mate, how are are you? Guy Welcome. Chris Good to see you, guys. Guy Welcome to this, it’s wonderful. Chris Thank you. Thank you. Guy Apparently it’s snowing where he is, mate, we’ve got it good over here. Stu Did you say snow? Chris It is. It’s white outside. Stu I’ve heard of that strange phenomenon, but I haven’t experienced it. Chris Well, I’ll send some in your way, we have plenty. Stu Please do. Guy [00:04:00] Chris, look, first of all, thanks for taking time out and joining us today, it’s really appreciated. Topic, I love personally and to be able to share it today on the podcast is going to be phenomenal. The first little question I’m going to ask you before we get into it is, if you were on a cocktail party and you were in a room full of strangers and one came up to you and said, “Well, hi, what do you do for a living?” What would you say? Chris [00:04:30] I’d run. You know, I tell people that I’m a translator. I teach a form of life coaching, which is basically just a way of saying how to live life that incorporates neuroscience, quantum physics and meditation, really, all I do is I share my own personal story with folks. I’m not a scientist, I’m not a doctor, I’m literally just a guy that identified a place in his life that needed to change and I did it. I did all the steps that all the gurus said to do, and lo and behold I learned a lot and now I have an awesome life. I really just share my own path. Full Transcript & Video Version: http://180nutrition.com.au/180-tv/chris-tate-interview/

Kelly talks to Chris Carlson, CEO, Narrative Pros, about what business leaders can learn from a stage and theater actor about presentations to small and large audiences.   Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: I’ve got my friend Chris Carlson CEO of NarrativePros on the line, Chris are you there? Chris: I’m here. Kelly: Great, Chris and I have known each other for many, many years. Chris is an actor at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis He’s also a lawyer and an entrepreneur, and I’m a big fun of his. Listeners are saying, why does he have a starving actor, lawyer on here? Before we get to your connection in to the banking ecosystem. A little bit of personal background. Chris: Minnesota residence, most of my life, three kids, I’m 46. I’ve been, as I said earlier acting professionally for 22 years. I’ve been an attorney for about as long. Kelly: Well let’s get into why I have you on BankBosun and your connection to the banking echo system. If you recall, I asked you to give a talk at a conference my company was hosting for banks and investment managers. I think we had like six or seven speakers there over a two day period, probably eight or nine I suppose. You got the highest rankings of anybody in terms of popularity. Tell me why you think that happened and what your value proposition, if you will, to the banking industry is. What was it that resonated with these bankers in that message? Chris: Absolutely, and I to think to answer as many of those question as efficiently as I can, it has to do with the value of genuine connections between individuals, whether that’s one on one or one to many, or many to one. The expertise that I have amassed over the years, is to how to efficiently create that. How to make that efficient, how to maximize the feedback that you get from any communication. Kelly: What does that really mean? Chris: Let me give you an example, bankers are smart guys. They tend to live in their heads when it comes to ideas. They believe if they have a great piece of advice, that that’s the end of their value. That I tell you to invest in stock A, because that will help you. But the real world has as much to do about that conversation and whether or not you say invest in stock A, in a way that is meaningful, whether it makes sense to them. Whether you’re rude, whether you’re cold or indifferent. The value of advice when it’s person to person, which is at the center of any banking relationship, depends on the connection between two people. It’s not whether or not I like you necessarily, but it’s I have to trust you. I have to respect you. I have to understand you absolutely. It has as much to do about that as anything. Kelly: How I perceive you or how a customer perceives a banker. Not necessarily how he really is. Chris: Well actually I would say that the goal is to have them perceive you as you really are, and we are many different people to many different audiences. You yourself are a father, a friend, a boxer. You will behave differently in the ring than with a client. What you need to do is harness what will be of the most value, and make the strongest connection with the audience that you’re in front of. That has to come from somewhere that’s true. One of the things that people often mistake is that acting is fake, and it actually has all to do with truth. If you see a good actor, you get them, you buy them, you connect with them. If you see a bad actor, you absolutely reject them. You don’t get it. It’s not real. Kelly: I think what you’re saying is that you learned this in your acting career. And as a lawyer, you practice this. But you learned this through your acting training to be real. Two scenarios, one is making a one on one presentation, and another is giving a talk to 20 people. What does your advice do in those two scenarios? Chris: My advice hopefully will encourage people to understand that their impact on their audience, whether it’s one person or 20 people, has more to do with how they say their message, and how they’re able to let people connect with them as real individuals. How they’re able to be themselves in a very genuine and authentic way, and then share the advice that they have. Far too often people, I call them left brain professionals. People who think a lot will sit in front of their computer and work on their outline in their PowerPoint and then get up and give it, without really spending much time on whether or not they’re giving it in a way that incorporates who they are. I think you, Kelly, are a good example of an effective delivery. That’s you, when I hear you talking, that’s the same Kelly that I hear when I’m having a conversation with in the coffee shop. People are drawn to that. For a banker to have an interaction with somebody, the more genuine they can be, the more that they can focus on that individual as a human being, and also share with them, themselves as a human being. That will make the advice that they give, that much more meaningful and valuable. In many ways it’s the same thing when they stand up in front of 20 people. It‘s genuine and real and to a degree vulnerable. That has a lot to do with fear that is natural, standing in front of a group of people or a high pressure sale. Anyway that you can wrestle that fear, and you kind of say look, “This is me, and this is what I have to say and I think it would be great if you used it, or bought, but if you don’t I understand.” That’s incredibly attractive for people to be around that kind of energy versus, “Look you really got to buy this and it’s really important to me. I don’t know what I’m going to do if you don’t, if you don’t buy this, if you don’t listen to me.” Even though it is important what the person thinks about you, or whether or not they take your advice or buy it. Showing that, gets in the way of who you are and their comfort quite honestly. Kelly: Give me a couple of takeaways that relate to preparing for a presentation and then three or four related to the actual presentation itself, beginning, middle and end that kind of thing. We’ve got some real solid takeaways, I can put some guiding principles here. Chris: Let’s start with the content, that’s where everyone’s comfort is, and most people will spend 100% of their preparation time working on their PowerPoint slides, and you definitely have to work on some kind of presentation, outline and some visuals do help. Number one, when it comes to the visuals, speaker support, PowerPoint, I would work as hard as you can to get rid of all the words quite honestly and just focus on graphs and charts, and pictures or visual creatures. There is a huge disconnect when somebody puts up a bunch of words on a slide, and reads them, or makes the audience read them. It’s just counterproductive and disingenuous to a live environment. You as the speaker need to be considered to be value bringer and you have to explain these things. I would say as few words as possible on any kind of visual support. The content in what someone says, you should outline in bullet points, words or phrases, but not in complete sentences. Don’t lock yourself into phrasing them, in any particular way. Let yourself react to those ideas and explain them, and that’s come off and it’s very authentic and genuine. Kelly: No words on slides. Chris: No words on slides. I would join the audience in cheering if I were to see less words on slides. It’s easy to do, and I think it’s actually fear. People are insecure and they’re like, ”Ah, I got to put all these words on here.” Well take the words off and say the words to people. Kelly: No words on the slide, that’s number one. What was number two? Chris: Number two outline your points in a way that you can speak to them in a genuine way instead, for example, I have been involved in the banking ecosystem since I was 22. Instead of writing that out and then reading it, you might just have something that says 22. You look at it and you say, “Ever since I was 22, I’ve been working in banking.” Let those words, let you work through the thoughts, so that the words come to you at that time. You have to have good notes but it will force you to pick the words authentically and people will hear that. That’s number two. Number three is when you pick these ideas and when you explain them, pretend you’re explaining them to your 92 year old father, or your grandma next door. In other words avoid jargon, you’ve got to be simple, direct and accessible, and I think that people who work in the idea profession tend to be complicated, inaccessible and you always want to be as clear as possible. Simplicity is not easy, it’s very difficult and working on that simplicity is an incredible investment in giving your audiences, who’s paying attention, a return of interest. They will appreciate you, summarizing things very simply and to button this third point off. Work very hard to summarize the single point that you have to make in one sentence. Imagine that your audience is walking out the door, and they don’t have time to hear your whole speech, what would be the one thing you would want to tell them. If you complain, oh no it’s too complicated, it can’t be distilled into one sentence, I would say to you that your audience is doing that anyways. After they walk out, someone’s going to say, “What did Kelly Coughlin talk about?” “Oh, Kelly is working on this cool BankBosun thing, that it’s needed, it helps out C-suite Executives in the banking industry.” They’re summarizing what you’re saying anyways. If you jump into their shoes and try to say all right, “What is the one takeaway from this? You’re going to help them do that. Kelly: That’s good, I recall again from that conference you spoke at. There was some prep work that you recommended. Chris: Sure, let me focus on one of them. A lot of acting technique or approach is focused on combating the nerves and stress of performing. That we appear, genuine, authentic relaxed. One of the truths of performing in front of a bunch of people is that you are nervous. It’s human, so what we want to do is make sure that we find another truth to counteract that. The best counter measure to stress is breathing. When we’re with our friends, or when we’re relaxed, or when we’re uncomfortable and not threatened, the human being breathes from the belly, they use … we use our diaphragm to pull in breath, and when you’re very relaxed, and actually if you watch your kids when they’re sleeping, you’ll see their stomachs go up and down. Now their stomachs are going up and down because the diaphragm is pulling in breath. When we’re nervous we tend not to breath from our diaphragm, our belly, we tend to take shallow breathes and it makes us more nervous and it changes our voice. Someone who’s really relaxed would sound like this, but if they were breathing … their voice goes up a little bit, and it gets a little breathy, and it’s just not as grounded. We can hear that, we feel that someone has a breathiness to their voice and it’s a little higher in pitch, but if you take a breath, and breathe from your diaphragm, not only does the pitch go down, but you can also project your voice further. You can talk louder. So breathing, putting your hand on your stomach and trying to train yourself to breathe so that your stomach flops out when you breathe in, is one of the most effective counter measures to stress and to get you back into yourself, to being a relaxed confident genuine person. Kelly: Let’s talk about, what are kind of some of the deal killers out there. The absolute be cognizant that you don’t do this. Chris: We’ve already touched on some them. These things would be anything that disconnect you from your audience; that separate you from them. For example, number one, the minute you start reading off of the slide, you’re not being in front of an audience genuinely. You’ve turned towards the screen, you’re reading something that everyone else is perfectly capable of reading. I mean that’s just a fundamental disconnect with one audience. “Hey buddy, I can see the slide and you’re reading it for me and it doesn’t make any sense.” Another one would be reading your speech which is very similar, and that’s telling the audience, “I’m not going to talk with you. I’m not going to share with you my ideas, I’m going to read what I wrote, and you’re going to listen to it.” At which point the audience feel like, well why don’t you just give me them for the reading, so that I can read it. Something that’s kind of fun, that I’ve uncovered, is that the average person speaks at about 150 words a minute. We can understand and we think at about 800 words a minute. That means that there is an attention gap. Every time someone starts talking over a couple of 100 words, where my mind is running circles around what you’re telling me. You always have to participate in that because if you don’t, if you don’t give them something to think about that is helping you, they’re going to think about something else. Kelly: Well don’t the non-verbal clues fill that void to a certain extent? Chris: They can, or they cut against it. Something that I was just doing some research on, hand gestures and body gestures. It’s fascinating, the neuro-scientists have studied it, and we use specifically our hands to make gestures, to help us think of a word, and so if we’re genuinely using our hands it’s because we’re trying to think of how to say something, but if you want someone who has prepared a hand gesture like a politician or a bad speaker. The hand gesture comes at or after what they’re trying to say, not before. In the real world, the hand gesture comes a little bit before what it is that they have to say. That’s what the hand gesture is for. When someone plans it, when someone says, “I think it would be good if I moved my hand like this.” They tend to do it in a way that’s very disconnected and fake, because we can tell that. Instinctively, they do it as you’re saying the word or phrase, or after it. That’s an example of another disconnection with an audience where they get the sense, and it’s an unconscious sense, it’s not, “My, he moved his hands in a way that was not matching with the phrase. Therefore I think he’s fake.” We’re not aware of that consciously but unconsciously we think to ourselves, “Wow this guy is a … he’s a fake, he’s not being real with us.” It’s very common. Kelly: Tell me about what should people do with their hands as a default, and then how should we stand? One foot, two feet, hands in the pocket, hands by the side? Give us a couple of ideas on that. Chris: It’s hard to do, but you forget about your hands. Don’t plan any gestures, let your hands go. Just like I was suggesting with your words to jot a note, and then let the specific words you use to express that idea come out in that moment. The same thing should be with your hands. Let your hands make whatever gesture. If you’re an Italian, outspoken hand gesturing person, that’s what you have to do. Kelly: Even if it’s a distraction I’ve been to talks where somebody will be using their hands, you end up following their hands the whole time. Chris: I would say to you that hands gestures become distracting when they’re not connected with what they’re saying. If they’re connected with what they’re saying, you’re not even going to notice them. You become attracted when they’re not connected. If someone has a non-verbal tick, if they’re just moving their hands and it has no connection with what they’re saying, yes it becomes repetitive and it’s a distraction. It’s just like someone who says, has a verbal tick and says um, um all the time and it’s distracting because it’s getting in the way of um, um what you’re trying to say. Kelly: What about movement on the stage? Chris: Less is more, when you start moving around, there’s a huge temptation because of nerves, the sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight reaction kicks in, and people want to move and I see this so frequently with inexperienced presenters. They’ll start wondering around the stage, or they’ll shift away back and forth on their feet, and that is not connected with anything they’re saying 90% of the time…99. They’re just moving because they’re full of adrenaline and they feel like they should move. But, if it’s not connected with what they’re saying, it is inherently destructive. Why is someone pacing back and forth on the stage? It’s funny because I’ll get push back on that, people will say, “Well I’m trying to be more interesting and dynamic on the stage.” I have no problem with being interesting and dynamic, I have a problem, if it’s not connected with what you’re saying. When in doubt, you need to practice standing still because you’re going to want to move. Move if there’s a reason, move if it makes sense. For example, if you’re separating a point. In the first situation, the FED needs to do XYZ and I’m going to talk about this for a while. In the second situation, and then you can move on that, that might make sense. That’s an example, but that requires practice and planning. So I always recommend that people just stand still. Kelly: Do you prefer microphone that is attached to you versus attached to a podium, because you’re kind of stuck and glued to the podium, but is that your preference? Chris: Yes, a lapel or lavalier microphone allows you to forget about the microphone and that’s what you need to do with a majority of the technology that’s helping support you. Some microphone on a podium tends to trap you behind the podium, which is bad for a number of reasons. You have a temptation to lean on the podium, you’re blocked and a lot of your body language from the audience. You might have more of a tendency to look down. A lavalier microphones will allow you to just take one step to the right or left of the podium, and to find a comfortable position in front of the audience and be accessible. Kelly: That’s terrific, I appreciate that. Chris do you have a favorite quote to finish off here? I always like to get one Chris: Any good quote. Kelly: Good quotes. Chris: Good quotes. “In law, what place are tainted in corrupt but being seasoned with a gracious voice obscures the show of evil.” Kelly: Good one, Chris I appreciate your time on this, and good luck to you with NarrativePros, and we’ll be in touch. Anybody wants to contact Chris, feel free, Narrativepros.com, is that the website? Chris: That’s it. Kelly: Thanks Chris We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin. .  

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