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Continuing our new series on artificial intelligence, Christian Simonds and Henry Birkbeck discuss what the use of AI in film and television. AI features in every stage of production – from pre-production, through production, to post-production – and reliance on AI will continue to increase as it evolves. The discussion centers around the legalities that management in the industry should be aware of, as well as the recurring questions and issues raised by clients in both the UK and U.S. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello, and welcome to Tech Law Talks, a podcast brought to you by Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies group. In each episode of this podcast, we will discuss cutting edge issues on technology, data, and the law. We will provide practical observations on a wide variety of technology and data topics to give you quick and actionable tips to address the issues you are dealing with every day. Henry: Welcome to our new series on AI. Over the coming months, we will explore the key challenges and opportunities within the rapidly evolving AI landscape. Today, we will focus on AI in film and TV. My name is Henry Birkbeck. I'm a senior associate in the London office at Reed Smith, and I'm speaking today with Christian Simonds, who is a partner in the New York office. Christian and I have previously written an article on AI in the film and TV space, and there's probably quite a lot to mention and not a huge amount of time to cover it. But I guess I'll start maybe Christian just by asking, you know, have you seen recurring themes coming up with clients asking about AI in the film and TV space so far? Christian: Yeah, I think in terms of, you know, the film and TV industry as a whole, it's kind of always been kind of at the forefront of technology, particularly in terms of how to properly utilize it. Just not only from a budgetary perspective, but also from a creative perspective, right? And obviously, you know, AI has been such a hot topic, particularly with respect to the guilds during the strikes of 2023. So there is a lot to kind of unpack in terms of how it's being integrated into film and TV production. You know, I think the general consensus is that about two thirds of every budget for a AV project in the kind of the film and TV space is kind of made up of labor. Right. And particularly now in relation to kind of the economy and where it is, there's been a heightened scrutiny of, of each line item in a, in a particular budget. And, and, and as a result, it's kind of driven the need or reliance on AI as a potential solution to mitigating certain costs, labor costs. And again, I know it's not ideal from an individual employment perspective, but from an overall budget perspective, it is something that I see the studios and production companies on the independent level embracing as it relates to trying to drive down costs of a particular budget it kind of, AI kind of plays into each stage of production on, it plays into development, pre-production, production, and post. And when you're navigating that as it relates to the legalities of how it's used, yeah, there are certain issues that come into play vis-a-vis what the guilds have agreed to kind of in their most recent ratification at the end of the strikes. And how to ensure that you're adhering to what those requirements are, at least aware of what they are. In addition to that, just from a copyright perspective and other considerations in terms of how AI is used in that kind of development stage. So there's kind of a lot to unpack within kind of the lifespan of a production as it relates to AI and how it's been used. And the reality is it's going to be used and it's going to continue to evolve and be, be relied on to a greater degree, particularly with respect to certain elements of the production process on the, on, on the VFX side in particular, obviously certainly in, in, in the development stage and, and, and the editing stage. And there's, there's certain things that, that it really has a, a, a tremendous value from a timing perspective, a cut down and production timing and, and, and, and other elements that I think will, will benefit the production as a whole. But yeah in terms of legalities yeah there's a lot to kind of unpack there I'm happy to touch on each of those in the time that we have. Henry: Well I think the first one which you did touch on obviously is that the guild strikes of 2023 and clients and and those those people in the industry in the US were probably a lot closer to it but for the benefit of those of us that weren't in the US do you do you want to give a very quick recap of kind of where where they ended up? Christian: Absolutely. Yeah. In terms of the Screen Actors Guild, SAG, there are really four main components to how they regulate artificial intelligence. So you've got your employment-based digital replica, which is basically a replication of a performer's employment or participation in the production. So it's literally taking the performer himself and portraying him in a scene that they didn't actually shoot or a performance that they didn't actually shoot. A good example is if you see in a movie someone talking to themselves. That second digital replication is employment-based digital replica. Right. What does that mean in terms of what you need to do vis-a-vis SAG? It means you need to get mandatory consent from the performers when you're going to do that. So it needs to be disclosed at the outset, either from the performer himself or if the performer is no longer around, you need to get consent from an authorized representative from his estate or the union itself. The contracts need to be reasonably specific as to the description of how it's going to be used. And if you're going to use it outside of the project, i.e. kind of that beyond a kind of one picture license, you're going to need additional consent to do that. And, you know, they need to be, the performers will need to be compensated, you know, for that digital creation as though it was themselves, right? So you need to take into consideration that residuals obviously Obviously, we'll need to be paid on whatever amounts are paid in connection with that. And then you've got independently created digital replica, which is basically using digital replicas created kind of using materials that the performer has provided in a scene that they didn't actually shoot. Right. So you're not actually using a previous performance in the movie itself, but you're like literally digitally replicating the performer in a scene that he didn't otherwise participate in. So again, you need to consent from the performer when you do that. You need to be reasonably specific in terms of how you're describing that use in the contract. Again, obviously, he's entitled to compensation for that use. And obviously, that compensation is entitled to payment of fringes. Henry: Has this kind of been met with or met positively, I guess, in the industry since? Because I know that in 2023, you know, there was a big kind of reputational issue around AI and there was a lot of speculation about whether these, you know, protecting the performer's rights, was this being overblown a little bit? Or do you think, you know, are people comfortable with where they landed? Christian: I think with respect to those two elements, I think yes, right? I think that the general consensus is they do adequately protect the actors when you're exploring those types of digital replica usages. I think the real wildcard here or the area of real concern is around generative AI, right? So basically, taking data, materials, prior performances, facial expressions, their image likeness, and actually creating new content from that material from an actor. I think that's really where we start to enter into an area where people aren't necessarily comfortable, particularly on the talent side. And again, the guild is clear that if you're going to do that, you need to get consent from the actor, right? So if you're going to use his image or likeness or prior performances to kind of feed a gen AI tool to create a new piece of content from those materials, you're going to need consent from that actor. You got to notify the union when you're going to do such a thing, you know, and the compensation around that usage is usually specifically negotiated with the talent themselves. And you basically need to continue to keep that talent informed how those materials are being used vis-a-vis the gen AI. So that really is a touchy area. I mean, I think a lot of people are familiar with what happened with Scarlett Johansson when she basically said that her voice was being utilized for purposes of chat GPT. Recently, they claimed that they had used an actress's voice that they had brought in that sounds similar to hers, but it wasn't her voice. I mean, so it just shows you the heightened sensitivity on the talent side in terms of of how their, you know, image like this voice is being used within the gen AI space. So yeah, there is, there's a lot of sensitivities around that usage. Henry: Okay. So it's interesting that there's an ongoing obligation as well, which I guess makes sense, but you know, it's a burden, I guess, on the production company. And the other question I had relating to guilds was, was the writers guild. And I think the other thing that seemed to make the headlines internationally was about how particularly large language models and generative AI tools can be used for screenwriting and at what point. There's always a question with AI and copyright and ownership. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit on where they landed in terms of who, if anyone, can own a script that has been written by an AI tool. Christian: You know, within the US, the copyright law is clear in the sense of, you know, anything that's gen AI created is not copyrightable, right? And if you are utilizing elements of materials that were gen AI created in your copyrightable material, you have to disclose what those materials are, and those materials will not be protected within the overall piece of IP, right? So you could copyright the script, but if certain elements of it were pulled from gen AI sources, those elements of your script will not be protectable. So the copyright law is fairly clear on that. In terms of the WGA and how they're trying to protect their writers from being replaced by AI, it's saying, hey, obviously with respect to signatory companies, you have to be clear that... gen AI produced material will not be considered kind of literary material under the WGA, right? So what does that mean? So if you can't give an AI generated screenplay to a writer and say, hey, go rewrite this, and you potentially won't be entitled to separate rights because you're writing something that's based on underlying materials, WGA says absolutely not. We're basically going to exclude that gen AI-created screenplay or treatment or Bible from the kind of separated rights discussion and say, Hey, that writer that contributes those first writing services, you know, for purposes of taking that gen AI material and, you know, either polishing or rewriting it or, or, or developing further into the screenplay, that will be considered the first step of the writing process. And that writer will be the writer that will be entitled to the writing credits around the material moving forward. So yeah it's almost like it's fine for studios to to provide gen AI materials for purposes of writers developing a screenplay or or assisting them with their writing services and again if they're going to do that they need to fully disclose that to the writer when they're doing it but those materials will basically be excluded from kind of the chain right when the WGA is considering what makes up the overall literary material that's going to be considered for purposes of writing credits residuals before etc. And I think again you know it's it's a good place to land for writers it doesn't necessarily solve the AI issue as a whole because it's still going to be utilized for purposes of coming up with ideas potentially on the studio side because it's it's something that they can quickly do and and also it has added benefits in terms of saying, hey. It can analyze a screenplay or it can analyze an idea and say, hey, here's the likelihood of the success of this idea or screenplay based on, you know, historics of screenplays like it in the past. Or, hey, I think the second chapter of this story should be changed this way because it's going to be better received because of X, Y, or Z, right? I think that tool will be beneficial. So it's not totally carving out the usage of AI as it relates to the development of a literary material. And I think it could be utilized in a positive way, which is great. I just don't think it will ever be able to fully remove physical writers from the process. I think the WGA did a sufficient job ensuring that. Henry: Yeah. It's interesting because obviously we're talking mostly about the US here, but I think most other markets in the film and TV industry were watching very closely what happened in 2023. And certainly in the UK, there's kind of been largely a following suit. You know, we haven't had the same kind of high profile developments, but PACT, which is the Producers Alliance in the UK, has since issued guidance on AI and the use of AI in film and TV productions. And, you know, they don't. They kind of stop short of taking a hard stance on anything, but they do talk about being very mindful and aware of the protection of the rights of all the various people that might be involved and how to integrate AI into production. So I think, I think the US position is, is really the kind of the market leader for this. And, you know, there's, there's a slight nuance in the copyright law is slightly different in the US and the UK and, you know, how AI relates to that. And, and lots of other jurisdictions, of course, there's implications there. But I think so far, the UK market seems to be broadly following what's happening in the states. Christian: It's interesting, too, because the states here are starting to take a position on AI. And there's, at least in New York, there's a few bills that are being considered currently. There's three bills, one of which I think probably has a likelihood of getting passed, which deals with contracts around the creation of digital replicas. And it kind of tracks what SAG has already said. But basically, any contract between an individual and an entity or individual for performance of personal or professional services as it relates to a new performance by digital replication basically is contrary to public policy and will be deemed null and void unless it satisfies three conditions, one of which is the reasonably specific description of the intended use of the digital replica. But it adds like an interesting element, which is that the person who is on the other side, whose performance is potentially being digitally replicated, needs to have been represented by council or a member of a guild, which is interesting, right? So it kind of adds a little, an extra level of protection. And again, this is going to be state specific. So it'll be interesting how this kind of impacts other states or what other states are potentially considering. And then there's two other bills that are currently in place. One is on the advertising side, you know, in connection with disclosing synthetic media as it relates to advertising. But the other one that's interesting, just from a film financing perspective, is that they're taking a position that, you know, productions that spend money on AI digital replication or AI usage might not qualify for the New York tax rebate, which is very interesting. Henry: Oh, really? Wow. Christian: They think that that one won't necessarily pass. Certainly the first one will because it's kind of already in line with what SAG has said. But yeah, that second one, I think, will probably get shelved. But just an interesting one to consider. Henry: Yeah, and it's really kind of, I guess, both of them showing that there is this protection element being added in and trying to... It's almost like holding these AI devices slightly at a distance to stop them kind of... Becoming a source of, I don't want to say evil in the industry, but kind of going too far overstepping the mark. Christian: Absolutely. And it's interesting too, because it's almost like, obviously you've got your defined protections within SAG and copyright law, and now obviously what's being considered by legislation. But the reality is a lot of this is being driven just by public policy in terms of the public's rejection of AI to a degree, right? I think people are generally like scared of it right so the knee-jerk reaction is to say no let's continue to promote you know the employment of real people right? Henry: Yeah. Christian: I think you know and and I think this also plays into how AI is used you know in films and again you know i think it's going to evolve to a point where it'll be tough to distinguish between AI and real right but you know, a good example being Irishman or some other films that have used significant AI to basically de-age people, you know, and people see it and like, that looks ridiculous, right? Like, I think there's a general knee-jerk reaction to doing it, right? And whether that changes over time based on how the AI technology evolves. Particularly from a visual perspective is TBD. But but yeah I think a lot of it is driven by public perception of AI right. Henry: Yeah yeah and I think you know it is interesting what you were saying before and we've seen this in the UK as well is that initially it was like okay well how is this gonna affect producers and you know and there's kind of efficiencies there but actually we're seeing studios and commissioners really embrace it and and look for ways to cut the cost of production as well and and you know i think it's It's just going to, like you say, it's going to touch basically every aspect of film and TV production and streamline things. Christian: Yeah, I think there are, I mean, I think there are real positives in terms of how it can be integrated into the production process. I know we touched on a few, but, you know, also like dubbing, right, localization of content and, you know, basically extending the reach of a piece of AV IP, right? So if you can do it in a way where it looks natural, because I know there's always kind of been a visceral reaction to seeing something that is dubbed really poorly, but if it can evolve to a point where it's almost seamless, it may have a better impact in terms of the breach of content. Again, I think there are different schools there in terms of whether investing in that makes sense in certain places or if it's just easier just to dub it and release it and how much of an impact it's actually having. But I do think in certain jurisdictions or certain areas, a seamless localization could have value to the reach of a particular piece of AV IP. Henry: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it could kind of move things geographically as well. I know, in the UK, we have this a lot where, you know, the cost of post production is a lot cheaper in countries close to the UK. And so as a result of that, you quite often see productions that will be, you know, 80% of it will be of the money will be spent in the UK. And actually, the final 20%, which, you know, often doesn't qualify for the tax credit over here anyway, gets outsourced to somewhere in Europe, where it is much cheaper to have the post production be carried out remotely, or even to Canada, or somewhere where there's a kind of better incentive package. And actually, if you could streamline that whole process, and you've got, you know, a company that or an AI tool that can, you know, do all the grading and all this kind of stuff that was cutting and these previously quite labor intensive activities, then there's no reason why you couldn't bring a lot of that production cost back on shore and reduce it. So it may kind of move where people are located in the market as well. Christian: Yeah, I think, you know, and it's not necessarily, you know, solely issue for, you know, scripted projects. You know, I think also in the US, it's even kind of led into the doc space, right? So I know, you know, the APA in the US, which is the Archival Producers Alliance, which basically is a document variance, you know, basically said as well, like, hey, just be careful how you use AI in this space, even though it's not, you know, governed by a auild necessarily, right? Like still, or how it's used in the non-scripted space, you know, it doesn't really have guild coverage depending on what it is. They're at least saying, hey, like, just be careful how you use it because, you know, what we're doing, particularly in terms of how we're depicting history or events, historical events or things that have happened, you know, AI, you don't want to, you don't want to change it to a point where you're basically changing the perception of history, right? Or generating things that are so AI oblivious to the realities of what actually happened, right? Like you might potentially, it might have a negative effect. And it's funny, it's more of like an ethical line that documentarians are trying just to be mindful of as it's kind of integrated into that space as well. Because look, when you don't have kind of primary source material to utilize for purposes of trying to depict something in a documentary, Yeah, it may be easy to duplicate it using AI, right? Generated by AI. But at the same time, that may have implications that you might not have thought about, which is, you know, how is this telling a story that might not actually be accurate to the underlying facts? Henry: I mean, I think that's a pretty good kind of starting point. Obviously, these are issues and discussion points that have a lot of depth to them and have been discussed a lot in the industry internationally already. And we're kind of in a point now where it's like, let's wait and see how this stuff shakes out in practice. And certainly, as we've discussed, the US has kind in a lot of areas that there is now a bit of a direction. So it'll be interesting to see how things unfold. And I know for the most part in the UK, the production industry sort of follows what's happening in the states. And in respect of international productions, they have to kind of be aligned to a degree. So it will be really interesting to see how this develops in the coming months and years. Christian: Yeah, for sure. And like Luke said in the beginning, there is no question that it is a part of the filmmaking process and will continue to be so at an ever-increasing degree. So it's kind of unavoidable. And I truly think it could be utilized in a way that's beneficial to filmmaking, both from a budgetary perspective, but also like, hey, if you can reallocate a bunch of the spend from what otherwise was labor-intensive, time-consuming elements of production, re-allocate that to talent or other things, elements of the process that can compensate certain individuals in a way that they weren't before. I think that can be beneficial as well. And I think, you know, there will be a point where, you know, it'll really help independent filmmaking in particular, right? Because that always is, budgetary constraints are always paramount in that space. And if you can do things that otherwise cost a ton of money previously for cents on the dollar using AI, moving forward to the extent it kind of evolves quality wise, I think you'll see an uptick in really quality, you know, independent filmmaking.. Again, there's never going to be a universe, in my opinion, that totally circumvents the utilization of real people, but AI can certainly be utilized in a beneficial way to help the process. Henry: Great. Thanks very much, Christian. And thanks everyone for listening. Tune in for the next episode on our series on AI. Outro: Tech Law Talks is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. For more information about Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies practice, please email techlawtalks@reedsmith.com. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

Today with us on the Incite Change Podcast, Coach Mauro sits down with Christian Strong. Christian is a former athlete and is currently a personal trainer at Lifetime. Having travelled the long road of playing professional football, he has turned the page and entered the world of personal training. It is no surprise that his niche is sports-related training. Although he only currently does that type of training on the weekends, he hopes to get into it further this year. Having gone through extensive training throughout his career, he uses his knowledge and experience to help others reach their goals whether personally or professionally. Like many of us, Christian has gone through his trials and tribulations in life but has always leaned on his faith. He speaks to us about his fitness journey, career, faith and guiding his clients along their fitness journey. Come along on this inspirational journey as we listen to Christain share his knowledge and experience with us.   Episode Timestamps ●        [01:07] Christian's Current role ●        [02:29] Becoming a Professional Athlete ●        [08:27] Mental Strength ●        [12:16] Start in the Offseason ●        [17:35] From the Athlete to the Trainer ●        [22:56] The Transition ●        [28:21] Incorporating the “Athlete” aspect ●        [32:33] Exercise Homework ●        [37:34] Get Active ●        [43:32] You Can DoIt   Resources Mentioned ●        Instagram: @strong.christian_   Quotes [Christian] “Anything you are going through you can achieve” [Christian] “You got this”   Thanks so much for tuning in. Join us again next week for another episode! Contact us! If you would like to get in touch, leave us a comment! Visit our website - www.healthyincite.com Follow us on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/incitecoaching/?hl=en Like us on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/incitecoaching/   

https://youtu.be/DJ39kWWkfYA?si=6io4Mw-xbq65bQfd Break Out – 2 – When Your Faith Croaked – How to Believe Again Welcome   Break Out What if there was a plan for you to be free?Fear, regret, debt, depression, addiction…   JESUS- More than a story - Blueprint for freedom and confidence Ephesians 3:11-12 (NIV) 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.Last week – When your hope dies.. how to have hope again. Hope can return before you realize it.   Today – When your faith croaked – How to believe again   Belief is a Struggle Me I struggle with beliefMyself – believe the worstOthersMarriage – Seen bad examplesWomen – ManipulatorsGod – Is the Bible true? We struggle with belief. Yourself - That idea/businessSpeaking your mind – fear/self esteemOthers – Friendship/betrayalLiars/fakesGod – Is God real? Care?Belief is a Struggle We all struggle with belief.Belief & Action Right belief and right action is rare. Continual tension.I believe… do I believe enough?Belief is not a one-time confessionFaithMarriageCareerYourself   Belief is Necessary Every success story starts with belief.Date, Married, STAY MarriedStart business, grow bizz, keep bizzStart working out, get fit, stay fitStart counseling, heal thoughts, stay healthyReceive Christ, grow/baptized, remain in JC   The freedom you want REQUIRES belief. Believe you can… it is possible… it is worth it…you are loved and valuable…   Beliefs change (THANK GOD!)You will not always believe like you do now.Christian – You need your belief to grow.   God says that we are CLAY, not Concrete.We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand. Isaiah 64:8 Be transformed by the renewal of your mind. (Romans 12:2)Think on these things instead. (Philippians 4:8)Set your mind on things above. (Colossians 3:2)Take your thoughts captive. 92 Corinthians 10:5)Your brain is supposed to change.Your thoughts are not set in stone.Beliefs change (THANK GOD!)How do I believe again?Receive New Information John 20:24-25 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.   Thomas says I won't believe unless… I receive NEW INFORMATION “The sky is purple with pink polka dots…”Believe me?No. You would need new information. How does God respond… God I need more information? Thomas – I won't believe until I see it… touch it… How does Jesus respond?“STUPID UNBELIEVING THOMAS. YOU'RE FIRED!” 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Jesus gave Thomas what he needed to believe.What do you need today to believe?What new information do you need to investigate? Connect Groups is a great place to get new information. Seek info from believers… not unbelievers.explain…   Thomas' response… 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” From doubt to revelation.Not just alive… MY LORD & MY GOD.   Beliefs change (THANK GOD!)   Imagine believing again. Turn your doubt into revelation. Marriage Career Ministry Education Yourself   Call to action  What is your belief struggle? Stop beating yourself up embrace the struggle Align your beliefs & actions What new information do you need? Investigate Connect Group new semester Ask God for new Information Pray  

But why am I not healing?   Jeremiah 30:12-17   You're not a Christian You've made peace with a sin You're the center of your universe You're only doing religion You're only doing the least you have to You won't give up control You're taking the wrong medicine   Crossroads – about heaven, earth, and the journey in between. Connect with us Website: www.crossroadsjourney.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC17oxaQ1yWK2DgN0xnlMO_g Facebook: www.facebook.com/crossroadsjourney

How good of a storyteller are you? I'm not talking about the stories you tell others. I'm talking about the stories you're telling yourself. We tell ourselves a lot of stories throughout the day, but how many of them are life-giving?  On today's episode of the Coming Up Clutch with J.R.™ show, I sit down with former pro baseball player turned bestselling author, Bob Wheatley. We got into the power of story and how it impacts your life. In this latest episode, Bob and I talk about…  What Bob wished he would've done differently as a professional athlete The narrative we're telling ourselves over and over and what it reveals to us What is catharsis, why you should want it, and how to get it  …and so much more. If you want more insight into what your stories are revealing about you, then lock in to today's episode. [00:01 - 19:01] Introducing Bob to the show Bob's most embarrassing moment Bob's background, story, and professional journey Bob's clutch moment as a college and pro baseball player   [19:02 - 28:19] What Bob wished he would've done differently as a professional athlete He would've lived better as a Christian  You can be a Hall of Famer, but that does nothing to solve your sin problem God is the author of your story Pain may be the best thing for you, especially spiritual pain (God knows what's best for you)   [28:20 - 41:52] The narrative we're telling ourselves over and over and what it reveals to us Most stories have six main parts: hero, villain, love interest, paradise, paradise lost, paradise restored These elements of a story are written on every human heart - God created us to long for that storyline. It's an expression of the deepest longing of our heart (which is to know God) We are supporting characters in God's story The stories we tell ourselves reveal what we really want If you don't like the story you're telling yourself: tap into the whispers you're hearing from yourself. Then, make that thought obedience to Jesus Christ and identify what that thought is telling you about your longing for God   [41:53 - 56:42] What is catharsis, why you should want it, and how to get it  Catharsis: the “Ahhhh” feeling after a great movie and the ending you were hoping for Three steps to catharsis: Desire Delay (waiting for the desire you want) Delivery (when the desire actually comes) The reason we feel tension is we want the cathartic moments to last forever When you're in the delay phase of catharsis and it's starting to get frustrating: Realize you're NOT alone - surround yourself with others to support ZOOM OUT - look at the entire story that God has written Realize that anything that's challenging is all the result of man's rebellion Note there will be an end to the story where God delivers us…there's purpose in your suffering   [56:43 - 01:01:44] Wrapping Up Bob's BIG domino How to connect with Bob   KEY QUOTES “You can be a Hall of Famer, but that does nothing to solve your sin problem.” - Bob Wheatley “Pain may be the best thing for you.” - Bob Wheatley “Waiting for the gift amplifies the gift itself.” - Bob Wheatley “There's purpose in your suffering.” - Bob Wheatley   CONNECT WITH BOB Instagram: @bob_wheatley TikTok: @bob_wheatley Website: https://bobwheatley.com/ Book: Our Hearts' Desire: How Our Stories Reveal The Thing We Want Most   CONNECT WITH J.R.  Facebook: @jamesJRreid Instagram: @jamesjrreid LinkedIn: in/jamesjrreid/ Twitter: @jamesJRreid Website: jamesreid.com For Men Only - Check out The Clutch Club™️: jamesreid.com/club   RATE & REVIEW this episode on Apple: https://jamesreid.com/review SHARE this episode with someone who wants to be challenged, pushed, and positioned to come up clutch more often. SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss out on any new episodes and Special Guests! LISTEN to previous episodes on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Google or whatever podcast platform you prefer!  

THE THESIS: God is letting evil run around in the open; I think He is creating the easiest pass/fail test in history and this is great news if we will do our jobs! THE SCRIPTURE & SCRIPTURAL RESOURCES:  Jeremiah 12:5-6 - God's Answer 5 “If you have raced with men on foot     and they have worn you out,     how can you compete with horses? If you stumble[a] in safe country,     how will you manage in the thickets by[b] the Jordan? 6 Your relatives, members of your own family—     even they have betrayed you;     they have raised a loud cry against you. Do not trust them,     though they speak well of you. Philippians 3:17-21 Citizens of Heaven “17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.” THE NEWS & COMMENT: Will we remain subservient to people who view your human life as a curse that only THEIR “smart” dictatorship could avoid the need for 6 BILLION PEOPLE TO DIE?  [AUDIO] -  Dennis Meadows: University of New Hampshire and WEF articulates clearly and without emotion the ruling oligopoly's plan for world depopulation and resource utilization. Will we side with people openly teaching kids to hate one another? [AUDIO] -  “Ask a Doctor” on how to explain white privilege to kids Will we stand with people openly teaching kids to hate their own bodies? [AUDIO] - A Missouri school district approved a “coming out closet” where students can get chest binders and clothing to express their new gender identity. “Transition closets” have been popping up at various schools across the country. Will we stay silent about people who are openly teaching kids to defile themselves sexually at the youngest of ages? [AUDIO] - WARNING: FILTHY LANGUAGE!  A parent in @Adams12 school district attempts to read from the book “Gender Queer” and gets silenced by board members. This graphic book containing pornography can't be read in front of adults yet is available for kids to read in schools across the country. This popped up on the chrome book issued by SUSD when checking 3rd grade homework. Poking around a little (like my 9 year old would do)was enlightening. Will be on the side of the Satanic Temple that announced, if Roe V. Wade is abolished, it will seek a religious exemption to perform abortions as a ceremeny of their religion? Satanic Temple Vows To Fight For Its Members' Abortion Rights If US Supreme Court Overturns 1973 Roe v. Wade Ruling Following Supreme Court ruling, Salem's Satanic Temple wants to fly its flag at Boston City Hall [AUDIO] - U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said in a testimony to the Senate Banking Committee that eliminating women's access to abortion would have ‘very damaging effects' on the U.S. economy  [AUDIO] - YELLEN: "In many cases, abortions are of teenage women – particularly low-income and often black — who aren't in a position to be able to care for children."  SEN. TIM SCOTT: “I'll just simply say that as a guy raised by a black woman in abject poverty, I am thankful to be here...” THE LISTENERS: Todd, I just listened to episode 113/hour 1. I remember hearing Brick on the radio all the time when it first came out, but never paid much attention to the lyrics or meaning. When I listened to it on your podcast, with the knowledge of what he's singing about, it instantly became a much more powerful and saddening song. Nothing makes me more sad and angry to my core than the topic of abortion. It seems to be a perfect song for this moment in time in America. Thank you for sharing. Christian ---   ---   --- You know you talk about becoming a minister well...ta-da...you are. Your show with your faith and beliefs in full effect are ministering. You reach and have an effect on more people and situations than you ever would as a churches' minister. I can understand wanting more knowledge and possible seminary, but your knowledge level now is more than than the apostles ever had. So drive on with what you're doing. You don't need a certificate of completion to minister and touch lives. You don't need anyone's authority. Just do what you do.  One regret I have in my walk was in a desert storm, I was in a Bible study group that had grown tremendously prior to the launch of the battle. A few of the attendees asked me to lead them into being baptized in the Holy spirit..I declined feeling like I didn't have the authority. Years later I realized I really missed an opportunity to do God's work.   You are working for God now...keep up the good work. See the fruit your efforts are bearing.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Disruptive Successor's latest episode is going to be unique as Jonathan Goldhill welcomes Christian LeFer, who is very passionate about nonprofits and social enterprises. Christian is the founder of InstantNonprofit, an organization that helps leaders and influencers create impact and build a legacy with the integration of a charitable entity into your life's work.HIGHLIGHTSInstantNonprofit: What it is and how it startedChristian's inspiration in getting into nonprofitsWhy should you start a nonprofitGetting paid while doing a nonprofitConcentric circles5 stages of a nonprofitQUOTESChristian: “I just got this moral outrage because I remembered my sister in Specialympics, and I said, well, somebody did that one day, and they face these incredible challenges in a year-long delay and very opaque process.”Christian: “What a nonprofit allows a business owner to do is sort of superposition their business and their life, their experience, their legacy, all of it through creating an organization that is very heart-centered.”Christian: “You have three hats on the table in front of you. Why would you never wear two hats at the same time?”Christian: “Sometimes people just need permission to go ahead and take the next step, and we do that as well.”Start building your legacy now by connecting with Christian using the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christianlefer/Email: christian@instantnonprofit.comWebsites: https://instantnonprofit.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InstantNonprofitA special gift from Christian to Disruptive Successor listeners! Visit https://www.instantnonprofit/disruptive-successor to get his Nonprofit Boot Camp for free!If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

So you want to be a Christian-- You must become a foot washer. But what exactly does that mean-- Jesus shows us that real love is at the heart of this ancient practice. And it is Jesus' real love that we must practice if we call ourselves Christians.

So you want to be a Christian- You must become a foot washer. But what exactly does that mean- Jesus shows us that real love is at the heart of this ancient practice. And it is Jesus' real love that we must practice if we call ourselves Christians.

As the Woke becomes Woker, the middle-class need to Wake Up. Trevor Loudon, journalist, producer, author, joins us on The Prism of America's Education. Let's start by talking about cows. This is a great explanation of ideologies. Using Two Cows to Explain the Theory of Government: Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives one to your neighbor. Communism: You have two cows. The government takes them both and promises you milk but you starve. Fascism: You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk. A FASCIST: You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage. Bureaucracy: You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours it down the drain. Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull and start a herd. Hedge Fund Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one, force the other to produce the milk of four cows and then act surprised when it drops dead. Redistributionism: You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point that you must sell them both in order to support someone else who already got a free cow from the government. Totalitarianism: You will own nothing and be happy. Prohibits all opposition parties, outlaws individual opposition to the state and its claims, and exercises an extremely high degree of control over public and private life. It is regarded as the most extreme and complete form of authoritarianism. A CHRISTIAN: You have two cows. You keep one and give one to your neighbor. A DEMOCRAT: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. You vote people into office who tax your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbor. You feel righteous. A REPUBLICAN: You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So what? Using Two Cows to Explain the Theory of Government -January 15, 2012, by Dan Mitchell. You are the knight in shining armor. Will you act?   Is America Worth Saving?      Demand an audit in your state. Hound your legislators: Do NOT raise the debt ceiling!  Tell them NO. https://www.congress.gov/,  https://www.contactmypolitician.com/. US Senate: 202-224-0911, US House 202-225-0911 Time to act. Just say NO.   Boycott one communist democrat business. Stop allowing schools to reduce standards.    Say NO to Facebook and Twitter. Stop feeding the people who want you dead. Join https://gettr.com/user/kbschoen. Be Proactive. Send your suggestions to: kbschoen@bellsouth.net. Does your Precinct have vacancies? Will you allow your precinct to be filled with those who are RINOs only to pick more RINOs for primary positions? Visit https://precinctstrategy.com/ to make your voice count.

Award-winning author, personal transformation coach and acclaimed TEDx speaker, Christian de la Huerta shares his insights on how we awaken our soulful power and unleash our inner hero on his book entitled Awakening the Soul of Power: How to Live Heroically and Set Yourself Free (Calling All Heroes), now available on Amazon or on your local bookstore. We talked about his beginnings, being an introvert, living in a communist country, to becoming who he is today. He shared his insights: - What does soulful power mean. - What are the power struggles and how do we get out of these instances - How do we stop cheating ourselves and selling out our personal power - What does heroism mean in this day and age - What inspires him, and more!   Follow Christian: https://soulfulpower.com/ Grab a copy of the book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Soul-Power-Heroically-Yourself/dp/1735059005/   Zestie shoutout: Thank you Gem Zhang! Thank you for listening and being a patron of the show. I am indeed in awe of your support. Give my regards to your family!   Zestie survey: I'd like to know you better! https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/6CVL2QD   Join the zesty community on: Instagram: instagram.com/gleefultalkshow Facebook: fb.com/gleefultalkshow Visit us: www.gleefultalkshow.com Ways to support Gleeful Talkshow: - Share to your friends - Share on social media - Leave a rating on podcasting platforms and Facebook page - Buy Glee a cup of coffee or two! https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=ANQENUPWKT9JS   Transcript: Christian: the worldly power it's always has an agenda. It's always trying to grab something for itself and, and itself, grandizing so it's blowing itself up to seem bigger than it is. Where's that, that authentic power, the power that's inside of us, the soulful power. It doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. Glee: Hey, Zesties, welcome to the Gleeful Talk Show where we share zesty stories to cultivate the happiness and hero within.  I'd like to give a major, shout out to our zesty, Gem Zhang, who is keeping me caffeinated these days. I hope you and your family are doing well. And thank you so much for listening to the show. Give my regards to your family, especially to the cuties, Yue and Ming who have been awarded with heaps of honors. So. I'm sure. You're very proud and I'm very happy for you as well. So for all of our Zesties tuning in today, if you haven't already please subscribe and rate the show wherever you listen to your podcasts, it will definitely help a lot. We can also connect on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. Just search Gleeful Talk Show. And if you want me to stay caffeinated, you can also buy me a cup of coffee or to just head down to the episode notes, to find out how. I've also put up a zesty survey on the episode notes so that I'll get to know you guys better and provide better content in the future. I'll choose one zesty who have filled out the survey to give one month subscription of Blinkist. Make sure to key in your email address on the survey. Blinkist offers key insights from top nonfiction books in a made for mobile format. Learn anytime, anywhere. This is not sponsored by the way, but I do have something to share to you before we dive in. This episode is recorded via riverside.fm it's by far the best remote podcasting platform ever. I've had my fair share of system glitches and bad recordings in the past, but Riverside doesn't disappoint and it always delivers. The great news is that they have a new feature called media board. It works as a virtual sound and video board, allowing creators to insert prerecorded content straight into the live recording session. Ideal for podcasts, intros, outros, jingles, theme, music, and ad reads. Riverside keeps coming up with all these awesome features. So don't miss out. I do have a coupon code that you can use. If you want to sign up, you'll get 25% discount in the first three months of subscription. Just click on the affiliate link below. So that they'll know. You've heard it first from me. And of course I do earn a small commission when you use it. I truly love this platform and wanting to share it with you guys. So please don't forget to click on the link on the episode notes and use a coupon code media board 25 upon checkout. Have you ever had moments when you said yes. When you actually meant no? Do you suffer from negative thoughts, low self-worth or self-sabotaging behaviors you might ask glee? How do we cultivate happiness and hero within well as Zesties, we are privileged to be speaking with an award winning author, personal transformation coach for 30 years, and acclaimed speaker who has shared his message of awakening our soulful power to many settings, including the Ted X stage, his book Awakening the Soul of P ower has gained the praises of likes of multiple Grammy award-winning singer. Gloria Estefan, please. Welcome Christian de la Huerta. Hi Christian. Welcome to the show. Christian: hi, Glee. Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. Glee: Thank you, Christian, for coming on the show and yes, you have this, this, a long list of accolade s and all these inspirational messages that you are giving to the whole world. But I'm very curious to know what life experiences did you have that led you to who you are today? Christian: wow. What a, what a, what a big question. Thank you. You know, a couple of them that I, think have impacted who I am was, you know, I was born in Cuba, so I lived in a, in a communist country for the first 10 years of my life, which, which is interesting that I'm writing about. Personal empowerment, because for,  your Zesties these who are listening here, and most of them realize that in a communist regime, in a totalitarian dictatorial country, the state pretty much owns you and decides everything, what you do and owns all your property and everything. And also I was raised in a very Catholic family, which is another power structure. That's power over. It's very hierarchical where you're pretty much told what to believe in what's right. And what's wrong. And the only access you have to the sacred is through the intermediary of the church or, or a priest. So, you know, be that as it may, it's interesting that. I am writing about personal empowerment and what it means to live a heroic life. And, one of the messages of my book is that that no matter what, environment we come out of, no matter what our past traumas that we can always figure out a way to step into our power. I was painfully painfully shy as a teenager to, the degree that. I was a good student when you know, which is one of the benefits of having been raised in a communist country is that we had a TV, but there was nothing worth watching the programming. Wasn't good. It was mostly government propaganda, some old American movies from, the fifties or whatever it was, you know, w when I grew up in Cuba and. Oh, I was a good student. So I developed a lifelong love affair with books. And when we came to the states in high school, I had pretty much all A's, you know, like the highest grades, except for my last year of high school of secondary school. I got one B, which was enough to knock me out of the top. Slot and it, I didn't do this intentionally, but looking back on it, I know that I subconsciously sabotage my grade point average so that I wouldn't have to get up in front of a room of hundreds and hundreds of people and deliver the valedictorian speech at that point in my life, there is no way there's absolutely no way that, that that I could have done that. And I know that you personally really appreciate this story. As a fellow introvert and, and, and the point of the story is really the only reason that I, share it is because these days, and I speak all over the world, I've spoken on the TEDx stage. I've spoken at many, many universities and churches and conferences. And so that I know that there is a way that we can overcome our fears and transcend whatever obstacles we have allowed to hold us back from, being all of who we are. Glee: yeah, actually when we first connected with each other, I was a bit, scared actually, because I'm an introvert, I'm nobody and stuff. And then, this award winning author and TEDx. Speaker, will be on the show. So I was very scared at the same time, but then when I read your book and when I was emailing you in all of these things, I can really resonate with the book And you have this very calming demeanor, I would say to that. It makes, people talk to you be calm I feel so. Yeah. And Christian: And I want to ask you a favor, Glee never, ever, ever, ever, ever do. Do do, would you ever use that phrase? I am nobody. Ever again. Right. Because, because that just isn't true. We, we are, all of us were magnificent creations. We are really were miracles of creation. It's just that we have allowed conditioning and, misunderstandings about who we are. You know, like we, we misheard things as, as children or maybe our parents said something in a moment of overwhelm or they react that and said something to us the wrong way. And we. Misunderstood that we took that on as if there were something wrong with us or maybe our parents got separated or they got divorced. And as little minds that didn't know any better, we took that on as if it was our fault. Like how could daddy leave, , how could daddy leave us and. didn't he love us. And what does that say about me that am I not worthy of being loved? And we make all these big conclusions about who we are that had nothing to do with us. There were just nothing but misunderstandings of young minds that didn't know any better and the immense human potential that everyone has. Every one of us, no matter what, no matter where, where we live, no matter what we do That inherent value has nothing to do with that. And, and that's part of the reason that I wrote this book is to help each and every one of us get through those misunderstandings from, childhood and step into our power. And, and thank you. Thank you for your courage in doing this. Glee: Thank you so much, Christian and yes, the awakening, the soul of power. So what is the soul of power or what the soulful power mean to you? Christian: Yeah, good question. You know, most of us have an ambivalent relationship with power. We're conflicted about it. Part of a part of us wants it. Part of us is afraid of it. And if I've spoken to many people that as we get deeper and deeper into what's going on with that. We fear that, if we really stepped into all of our potential, if we really stepped into, into our power, that other people wouldn't be able to, like us, wouldn't be able to accept us and that we made end up alone. We also fear that we might abuse that we might cause harm. And no wonder we have to do is turn on the news on any given day and witnessed at least one abuse of power and oftentimes many more than that. We've also been. Conditioned to believe that power is a bad thing. You know, we've, we've heard quotes like power corrupts, absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. But what they didn't tell us about that quote from Lord Acton is that he was speaking specifically about political power. Not. Personal power. And then add to that mix. The fact that we've been conditioned to fear the emotions, we hate conflict. We avoid confrontation. We've labeled the emotional weakness. When the emotions are in weakness, the emotional is, are not good. They're not bad. They're not strength. They're not weakness. They're just energy. like everything else where it used to be spiritual teaching that everything is energy. Now we know from quantum physics, that it's true. That means the body, the emotions, everything is energy. Energy can not be destroyed so we can only suppress it. We can only like stuff it. And so when you add all that up together, what happens is that we, end up giving our power away our innate. Inherent power. No one can give to us. No one can take it away. We are the only ones who can give it away. And the sad part is that we give our power away for, sad reasons. For lame reasons, we settle for less. We, say yes. When inside we feel, no, we play small for an illusion of security. For a false sense of acceptance and for crumbs for morsels of pseudo love, because it's not even authentic love that we're settling for it. Glee: Yeah, that's really true. Like when you say. You said about like, you just want to be small. I really had those moments, like even now, like I'm an adult and even when I was a child, so there are moments that, I struggled, whether oh do I really want to, like when I started the podcast, I wanted a podcast art that is very subtle, not, eye-catching because I don't want to be seen, but I don't, I want to send a message, but then I realized that it's not really, me. Like I'm a simple person, but how having a colourful art or something doesn't really mean that. there's a lot of things that went through my head. That's why I changed my branding and all that stuff, because initially I do not want to be seen, but now I have like colorful logos and stuff. So I have those kinds of power struggles. So how do we get out of these kind of instances? Christian: and that's another example Glee because when I was researching you and your, podcasts, I couldn't find a photograph about you. And now that I see you on this podcast interview, you're beautiful. You're beautiful. So, so what are you doing? Hiding you cut it out. Like, and I totally get it. I totally, I was, I was that way too. And the thing is that we've been. Confused. We been conditioned to believe that to be. All of who we are to like really shine that, that is arrogance. And when we think about it, here's a way to reframe that there isn't anybody out there who has the same genetics who has the same set of experiences that make us who we are that make us a unique, like we're one of a kind. There isn't anybody in this universe or any other universe that has those, genetics and experiences. So if we don't give full expression to that, to that human potential, nobody else is going to do it, and nobody else is going to do that anywhere. So, so when I think about that, when I think about the times in which we live, from my perspective, it's all hands on deck. the planet will be fine. It might take a few million years, but life will continue in some form. Even you can say the consciousness will continue as it finds itself to, evolve. And, you know, maybe it turns out to be a conscious, enlightened cockroach planet. Who knows. Whether we make it, that's the question, because it's just now that we're beginning to witness whatever it is that we have unleashed on the environment. So when we look at it from that perspective, and we think about. The potential that each one of us has, like any one of us has the slightest suspicion that we have worked to do that we have a work to do as teachers, as healers, as activists for change like you're doing through your podcast is like, how, dare we play small? So it's like, to me, that's the arrogance, in these times, it's what we're being called to do is to, shine our breath, our light, as bright as possible. So that we can be that, beacon in the darkness and the fog and that somebody will, at some point might hear something that comes out of our mouth, or they may hear some message through your podcast. That's going to be just what that person needed to hear that then is going to take them on that journey of really realizing their potential.   Glee: it's very inspirational. And the thing is that as you said, like, we tend to be, playing small and it's like cheating ourselves. Right. It's like yeah. And, you talk a lot about personal power, especially in this book, Not other kinds of power, like political power and such. So how do we not sell out of our personal power? Like when we tend to succumb to those instances that we cheat ourselves, how do we maybe come out from drowning? Christian: yeah. Beautiful, beautiful question. And so a couple of things that come to mind, one of them is understanding. we started to talk about that there are different kinds of power and that there is a way that we can step into our power. That doesn't require that we push anybody down because that's the problem with these hierarchical power over organizations and structures, know, they require for. Somebody to be on top and somebody to push somebody down. so that's why good-hearted people don't want to do that. We don't want to abuse other, we don't want to abuse power. We don't want to be corrupted by power. So. Those are the reasons that we tend to give our power away, but it's important to realize that there is a way that we can step into our power, that doesn't require that we push anybody down, that we step on them, that we control them by fear or by force or domination that we push anybody down and put our need to their neck so that we prop ourselves up in fear, powerful and feel powerful. There's the way that we can step into our power. That is congruent with the good people that we are. And, and so that's the whole, message of the book, like the realizing that there's a difference between worldly power, how the world relates to power and spiritual power or soulful power. some of the differences, for example, worldly power. We tend to associate power with people who have, money, who are famous, who are part of some kind of organizational hierarchy, whether it's corporate ladder or some kind of religious hierarchy or organizational structure. But the thing about those powers is that they're all outside of us. They're external. So they're. Here today, gone tomorrow. Whereas the other kind of power that I'm talking about is inside us. Nobody can give it to us. Nobody can take it away. As we were saying before, we are the only ones who can give it away and that we give it away for all the wrong reasons. One, you know, the worldly power it's, it's always has an agenda. It's always trying to grab something for itself and, and itself, grandizing so it's blowing itself up to seem bigger than it is. Where's that, that authentic power, the power that's inside of us, the soulful power. It doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. It just is humble and it's about service. It's about making a difference. So think of a Gandhi. Or a Gandalf, from the Lord of the rings and they're simple monastic robes their, sandaled feet, you would never know how much power they hold until it's necessary until it's called for. And when we think about it, Gandhi brought the British empire to its knees. when it was at its highest point, In terms of global influence on global reach without ever shooting a gun or landing a single punch, talk about power. That's the power that brings about global change and shifts to the power structure in terms of an empire. And that's the kind of power that each of us has access to that gets inside of us. Glee: beautiful. Really beautiful. And when I hear the word power, it's like equate to being like a hero. So, what is heroism for you in this day And age? Christian: Yeah. And that's a beautiful question. Because I'm also an unlikely person. There'll be speaking about what heroism is because I was so painfully shy. And that's this book is the first of a series of three books. The title of the series is calling all heroes because I think we're all being called to step into what that means. what living heroically means in the 21st century. And, up until recently, most of us, when we thought of the word hero, we thought of, you know, superhero with a, with a Cape, a Superman or wonder woman or maybe we thought about. You know, first responders, warriors, firefighters, that kind of thing. COVID ironically has expanded the way that we think about what heroism is. So now we include in that word, we include in that category are our healthcare practitioners are our doctors, our nurses, our respiratory therapists who literally put their lives at risk to take care of the rest of us. And continued to do so in these times of, the global pandemic and then maybe we even included there grocery store clerks or delivery people who also placed their lives at risk in order to keep the rest of us fed and provided for. And so what about the rest of us though? We're like, what does that mean for us to live heroically? And so. That's what the, the series is about. Like, how do we step into, heroism? maybe we don't have a horse hitch tot side. Maybe we don't have the armors. Maybe we're not fighting demons except the ones inside our own heads. and that's what this book is about. What does it mean to, look at our own fears? Like the traumas that we have all overcome to be willing to look inside and to ask the difficult questions, like why do we do the things we do? Why do we get stuck in these patterns of behavior? In what situations do we give our power away? What are the patterns do we tend to give our power away in, romantic, intimate sexual relationships? Or maybe do we tend to give our power away in relationship to authority figures, parents, bosses cops Military officers, coaches religious figures and, asking those questions are hard or, you know, asking questions, like why do we get into these patterns of relationships that sometimes feel like we're in the same boring movie? But just with a different actor with a different lead actor, but, but the thing kind of relationship the patterns. and so at some point we have to get honest and we have to get courageous and we have to realize that there is only one common denominator in every one of those relationships and in every one of those power struggles and in every one of those conflicts that we get and it's us. And so having the courage to look inside. And to understand why we do the things we do and understand what triggers it, what triggers us. It's it's hard work and it's nothing short of heroic. And it is so worthwhile because the possibility, what becomes possible is freedom. And so that we can have the kind of relationships that we really long for, and we can have a life filled with meaning and purpose and a sense of personal empowerment. So it's yes. It's tough work. Yes. It requires work to go within and it becomes empowering. Everything becomes possible. We can have the lives of our dreams when we're willing to do that. Glee: yes, very good. Because it needs for us to be aware of ourselves so that we can question those things. Is that. you, you mentioned because sometimes we can't even question ourselves because we're not aware of it, right. Christian: it's like, being afraid of speaking in public because of stuff that happened when I was a kid, know, because of ways that I was raised things that we were conditioned by. And so whatever the trauma was is not, and it's not to minimize anybody's trauma. We've all had to deal with stuff that shouldn't have happened. And that sucked But here's the thing  if we're, if we're on a journey of personal empowerment, as long as we're holding somebody outside of us or some system outside of us, responsible for our state of being. Right. if only mom hadn't done this, or dad had been that way, if it had only been for that teacher, whatever they said to us when we were kid or the minister or society or sexism or racism or homophobia, if it only wasn't for that. Then I would be happy, then I would be in my power. Then it would, then I would have meaning and purpose. We just gave our power away. Right. We're holding something outside of us, responsible for how, for our lives. That's completely disempowering and it's not to minimize. Anything that happened. And it's not to deny that there are systems that are inherently unfair and that some of the systems in the world are stacked against some people. So it's not to minimize any of that is not to deny any of that. But it's to say that if we want to step into our power, we've got to own that we have a choice. Right that it sucked or things that happened that sucked and that we can count on life, continuing to throw curve balls our way, right. Things that we just didn't see coming. And things that may not be, even be fair. So, as long as we can say, you know what, that sucked, I wish that hadn't happened. And how will I be in response to that? What am I going to do about that now? Right. That completely reframes everything and allows us to reclaim our power in every single situation. Glee: yeah, it's truly taking ownership of your life and your actions, right? Yeah. It's very beautiful message. Christian: That's it. You just, you just reframe it as no matter what happened. get to decide how we show up in response to yeah. Glee: Yeah. I'm very curious. what inspires Christian de la Huerta the most. Christian: since I was a kid, I've always had a sense of mission. Like I always knew that I was here to, help others, to make a difference, to serve the sacred, you know, which at different points in my life looked differently when I was a kid and I was raised in that very Catholic environment. I thought I wanted to be a priest. And. You know, realized in my teenage years that that religion didn't have room for me. And so I had to find different ways of expressing that desire to make a difference to, to serve humanity, to serve the sacred, to serve the universe. And, know, there's one of my favorite quotes and I'm rephrasing it. It's from Einstein you can't solve a problem from the same level of consciousness in which it was created. So when I look at the world that we live in and all the problems that we face that sometimes feel like impossible. And when I think about. how are we ever going to dig ourselves out of this hole that we have collectively dug ourselves into? You know, and how do we even begin to talk to, somebody like from a different culture, a different. Religion, how do we connect with a terrorist that doesn't even think I'm human? how do we begin to, deal with the environmental crisis that we're just now beginning to witness the, effects of. And so when I think about all that, I just think, you know what, it's the only way out. It's, a spiritual revolution. a revolution in consciousness, a leap in evolution in terms of consciousness. And so when I think about that, I think. what can I possibly do? Me personally? And I think, you know what, the only thing that I can do, because like, what am I going to do about the environment by myself? It's not much, but what I can do is continue to heal myself and wake myself up and to help as many others do the same. And that's what we can all do. Glee: Oh, thank you so much, Christian, for all that you do. It's very inspiring.  I'm very excited for the next twoseries of the book. When is it coming? Christian: This first one is out then the next one is on relationships specifically. So like the first one is how does a hero step into power in a way that that is congruent with who we are that is not about abuse or hierarchy or, power over, like how do we do power in a different way that's power with and, so. The next book is on relationships. Like how does, how does a hero do relationships consciously? How do we approach them in a different way? And, how do we do them in a way that they can work, that they can actually work. That one is probably going to come out in this, around Valentine's of 2022, Valentine's day, 2022. And the third book is up about life purpose. Like, how do we really step into what we've come here to do at a mission level at a soul level? And how do we stop playing small and hiding our light under a bushel? And so that'll be the year after that. Glee: Great. And I love the sequencing actually, because it it's like knowing yourself first and then, you know, like relationships with others. And the next one is like the bigger picture. That's how I see it. So it's very good. Christian: You nailed it. That's exactly the it's exactly what the progression as I see it too. Glee: Great. And I have some, a few fun questions before we wrap up, but not really seriousness, are you ready? Christian: I'm ready.  Glee: Okay, great. Okay. So if you could have an unlimited storage of one thing, what would it be? Christian: Oh my God. Okay. Yeah, I guess it would be love, huh? that ultimately what we all long for and what we all are like once he cut through all the BS that's, what's inside each of us and that's what changes the world and not a Hallmarky, you know, airy fairy kind of love, but love is as fierce and the most powerful force in the universe.  Glee: I try to make it fun, but I think everything about you is just very so deep, but I love it. I love it very much. Christian: I forgot. It was a fun question. Glee: yeah, most of the time, actually, I tell the guests like, oh, I have a fun question for you, but it turns out the answers are really, really deep, which really is resonating with everyone as well. And especially with my audience. Christian: Go Zesties! teeth. Glee: Yeah. And other than writing and inspiring people, what are you most passionate about? Christian: I think what we were talking about before about. Making a difference. And you know, I am so humbled that the work that I do, like my retreats, my, coaching, my virtual coaching programs my braiding that it actually makes a difference in real human lives. And I'm glad that I don't have to choose between my soul level mission, my work and having sex, but if I had to choose, I'm very clear of that. There's no question that I would choose my purpose because to me, that is what gives me my deepest, meaning my deepest satisfaction.  Glee: Awesome. And you mentioned about your coaching. This is not part of the fun question, but I just got me curious that what is the most heartwarming message that you've received with your trainees or your mentees in your program? Christian: oh my God. What a, what a beautiful question. And what a difficult one, because there's so many Glee: know. Christian: so many, but here's, here's one that always touches my heart. Here's a woman who was in her fifties. Like a really, high-powered brilliant, brilliant executive like vice president of a, of a multinational corporation at the highest, highest levels. And yet in her personal life. She had never had a, real meaningful, loving relationship. Of course she'd been had many relationships, but not the, kind of relationship that, she really long for where she could be met by a partner by somebody who was really going to see her and both respect her. Honor her and also challenge each other to be the best that they could be. And so she did a couple of retreats with me, probably two or three retreats in on the third retreat. She had those realization because of some childhood trauma that she had seen herself trapped in this room and realized. That she had always given the power away to, to this abuser and realized that she was the only one who could let herself out. And in this breathwork session, in the middle of this retreat, she opened the door out of this room and let herself out. And so that was the culmination of, many healing opportunities that led to that moment. and that's what I mean by heroism. Like for her to get to that point, she'd had to like remember stuff that wasn't fun to remember. That was really difficult to remember. She'd had to face herself, she had to face her fears, but it was so worth it because. Like two days later, she was having lunch with a friend, after she had that liberating experience where she set herself free and let herself out of this room. And she was having lunch with a friend and the friend said, Oh, yeah. You know what? I don't know why. I hadn't thought of this, but there's this guy that you need to meet this friend I need to meet. I think you guys are gonna like each other long story short, last year in the middle of the pandemic you know, they, they came down and it was just a very small wedding and we had all been tested. They married them and it was like just the two of them. And went out her sister and her brother. And that was it. and so she found like the, the relationship of her life, like her life partner, and now they're, you know, they live together beautiful house on a beautiful lake up in a beautiful private lake. And so, so that's, what's available to any of us when we're willing to do this difficult work of this heroic work, it is so worthwhile. Glee: wow. That was a very heartwarming, like it's like happily ever after. Christian: Yeah, Glee: Yeah. Christian: well, and of course, no, no, no, there is no perfect relationship and of course relationships require work. But it is so worthwhile. So happily ever after, but not in those, you know, Hallmarky, uh, Glee: A fairy tale. Christian: In that, in that Disney princess sort of way, it's like, it's Glee: Yes, Christian: a different way. It's like we all got to empower ourselves and nobody can do it for us. And, and there's difficult work that that's heroic work, that we're talking about this willingness to face ourselves and face our inner demons. And to look at these difficult patterns and ask ourselves the difficult questions. Why do we do the things we do? And why do we get stuck in these patterns of behavior of self-sabotage? And why do we get stuck in these power struggles? There is an answer and there is a way out, no matter what happened. And no matter what happens. So for all the Zesties out there, thank you for, being willing to look inside and, to do the work, the heroic work of empowering ourselves and freeing ourselves. Glee: thank you, Christian. And please invite the Zesties. Where can they find the book and where can they find you? Christian: Yeah. And thank you glee for having me on the show and thank you for you, your heroic work  christian_de_la_huerta-2021-6-13__6-59-36: I Christian: know whether there's to be introverted. And I know the, the courage that it must have taken for you to take on this does facilitating a podcast in you doing that and you stepping into, and you overwriting your fear. And and saying yes to the call of your soul to take this project done. You're making a difference lives are being changed. So thank you so much for that. And in terms of where to find the book, they can find it on Amazon. They can find it at a local bookstore. They just need to order it. And in terms of getting in touch with me they can go to my website. SoulfulPower.com. And from there they can access my different social media. And any of the zesty is out there listening. If they get on my email list and it's easy to unsubscribe, if it doesn't work for you, but just for getting on my email list. Now, if they go to my website they'll get. A sample chapter from the books, they get a taste of it. They get some power practices, which are designed to apply the teachings to our lives, to integrate them because we don't need more information. You know, we're all on information overload, what we need is transformation. And that's what their teachings are designed to do to apply them to our own situations, to our own lives. And then they'll also get a guided meditation and a teaching about trust which is what. What we're all longing for too, in these, times of dramatic change and chaos and uncertainty. Glee: Oh, great. Thank you so much, Christian, for being in the show and thank you for all the work that you do. Christian: Thank you.      

Christian- You cannot love God and -at the same time- love -the world. By the world, I mean the world's philosophies, its -customs, and its expensive and shiny idols, which are all -meant to draw you away from Christ- -You cannot eat, drink, -and commune intimately- with the -world, you cannot partake of and engage in its customs and -sinful practices and think to come to the table of the Lord -with a devoted and sincere heart. If you're intimate with the -world, THEN you're NOT intimate with Christ--The Christian life is NOT halting between -2- opinions- -You cannot have a heart for Christ, and a heart for the -world-

In this episode of the EMEA Recruitment podcast, we were delighted to welcome Christian Nilsson, the CFO for the ABB Electrification business.  “The more diverse the crowd you spend your life with, the wider your learning ought to be.” Christian joined Paul Toms, our Founder, via a video call, which has become the norm for communicating across the business world due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Paul kicked off the conversation by asking whether Christian has taken any positive learnings from the past year. Although it has been an incredibly difficult year in many ways, Christian has found that the new ways of working can have a positive impact both professionally and personally. Having worked across a range of countries within the business transformation field, Christian explains the three components that have been key to his success. Trust and empowerment within his teams are top of the list. It’s unsurprising that Christian also values diversity of mindset, which taught him a lot when based in the USA, China and European countries. Although he spent a “tonne of time” travelling around the world pre-COVID, life has changed a lot since then. One thing that hasn’t changed for Christian is the way that he prioritises his day. After hearing about Christian’s focus on his team, it’s no surprise that people are top of his list in a typical working day. Finding good people for his team is one of Christian’s greatest challenges, but he believes that it’s also the most powerful result when you get it right. He tells Paul which traits are most difficult to find when recruiting. Looking at how the Finance function may change in the future, Christian explains how we must find and use data to improve decision-making. But will people within Finance teams be treated more like machines than humans if decisions are based on data? Christian is confident that we may actually have more time to focus on people and personalities if Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning can harvest the data we need. Although Christian didn’t wake up one day and know that he wanted to spend his life in Finance, he feels lucky to have worked for companies that place Finance close to the business and decision-making. If you’re looking to become a Chief Financial Officer in the future, he ends with some advice on grasping opportunities and experiences to expand your scope. You can listen to the full episode below: This episode is also available on your preferred podcast platform or by following this link: If you’re looking for a particular part of the episode, use the timestamps below: 01:22: How we’ve made technology work during the pandemic04:49: The 3 keys to Christian’s success08:56: Learning from diversity of mindset12:53: Where Christian’s leadership fundamentals came from15:13: How Christian prioritises his day17:36: Why recruiting the right people is so hard21:55: What took Christian into Finance?24:42: Advice for CFOs of the future33:43 How to connect with Christian   You can find Christian on LinkedIn by following this link: Connect with Christian   The EMEA Recruitment podcast is brought to you in partnership with Operation Smile, an international medical charity. We are hoping to make a worldwide impact and change lives through our partnership – help us reach our target of creating 100 new smiles by donating: https://www.emearecruitment.eu/operation-smile   This episode was hosted by Paul Toms and Rose Jinks, our Senior Marketing Executive. If you’d like to find out more about our recruitment services, please visit our website: https://www.emearecruitment.eu/ You can also follow us for regular updates on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/emea-recruitment-limited If you’d like to connect with Paul, you can find his LinkedIn profile here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paultoms/ He is also active on Twitter: https://twitter.com/paul_toms   If you’d like to suggest topics for future episodes of the EMEA Recruitment podcast, please contact Rose: rose.jinks@emearecruitment.eu    #emearecruitment #emearecruitmentpodcast #christiannilsson #paultoms #switzerland #finance #operationsmile

Are you surprised when you experience hostility from someone simply for being a Christian? You shouldn't be. In fact, you ought to rejoice! Why? That's what Jay and George will discuss as they look at 1 Peter 4:12-19 on today's Text-Driven Tuesday. ***Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or Podbean***Conformed to Christ aims to engage the mind, affect the heart, and call people to follow Christ. Additionally, our aim is to introduce and explain passages of Scripture and difficult theological doctrines in a down-to-earth and easy-to-grasp manner. Theology and the Bible should impact your life and our goal is that we might play a small part in seeing that happen.

We're baaaaaaaack! Welcome to Season 2 of Sunday School Delinquents (the former The Take 3 Theological Variety Hour).Back to business with a Halloween episode for you. The team talks about Christians enjoying Halloween, All Saint's, Day of the Dead, and Samhain holidays. Can you love Halloween and still be Christian? You can find some strong opinions here!Also discussed, Seth's Brad Pitt likeness, postmortem photography, Thanatos Archive, Bael - Bail - Bale, Occult, Tarot, Remembering Ancestors and much more!

In this episode, Christian Haynes '20 interviews Che Anderson '11 about his work supporting public art, and how his Holy Cross experience inspired him to make his mark on the City of Worcester. Recorded November 20, 2019 --- Transcript Ché: If at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Ché Anderson from the class of 2011. A New York native, Ché now claims Worcester as home. After making his mark on campus as a co-founder of the Brother to Brother Committee, Ché continues to make a positive impact on the Worcester community as an alumnus. Currently working as deputy cultural development officer for the City of Worcester, Ché was one of the organizers of the POW! WOW! Worcester Mural Festival. First debuting in 2016, POW! WOW! Worcester is an annual week-long festival that has already curated over 130 pieces of public art. For this great work, Ché was named to Worcester Business Journal's 40 Under 40 list in 2018. Maura: Christian Haynes, from the class of 2020, speaks with Ché about how this work came to be. Starting with his childhood in New York City, they speak about the many people and moments that have shaped Ché as a professional and as a leader. Filled with inspiring takeaways, their conversation showcases the power of putting the Holy Cross mission into action in the community. Christian: I'm here with my man, Ché Anderson. Ché: Hello there. Christian: So let's go ahead, it's your boy Christian, you already know what it is. So I'm talking about... I got to bring myself into this. Ché: I hear you, I hear you. Christian: First question, is it Ché or Shae? I know you have people that have known you for about 10, 20 years that still call you Shae. Ché: Yes, they do, my name is Ché Anderson, hard Ch with the accent over the E. I was named after Ernesto Ché Guevara, and oddly I got that name because my grandmother, rest her soul, was a Black Panther and she was a Black Panther from Harlem. And she raised my father strictly in that environment, and so having his first born son, he wanted to give me a name that, from the way I hear it, was powerful but that said, I would cause a little bit of trouble. And initially he wanted to name me Huey after Huey Newton. Ché: And my mother was just like, "No, I don't want that name". So they landed on Ché, because it was unique, and because they both thought that he was a really interesting and powerful figure. And so you could imagine growing up, now 30 years and people going, "Well either you have a lot to live up to", or, "Do you know what he was about or what he did?". And it's like, "yes", I've read every biography and autobiography I can of that person. Christian: That's wow. Did you feel that type of environment, that Black Panther type in your environment growing up, in your household growing up? Ché: I think that... It's funny, my mom was a correction officer, and worked on Rikers Island in New York. Which, for those that don't know, it's an interesting facility, to say the least. Ché: And I think that my mother always, drove home how important it was to be aware of myself and all my situations. Not only what it meant to walk a street, but what it means to walk the street as a black male, and how that can be perceived by different people. And so some of that was in the ideologies and philosophies of those in the Black Panther party, some of those are just growing up as a black person in New York City, and some of that is from my grandmother coming from South Carolina. So I think that, when you have family, all that legacy comes with you in the way that you're raised or brought up, or the different lessons you're taught. Christian: That's a lot. Ché: It is, it's heavy. Christian: It is heavy. I think that's the right word to use. Do you ever ask your mother why correctional officer was like... Ché: Yeah, apparently my mom was trying to figure it out, I think like most people are in life, in their early twenties and I think she knew that there were some really interesting opportunities and good pertinent opportunities in civil service. And for her, she had actually a friend who was taking the exam to be an officer, and so she said, "You know what, good pension, good paying job if I have a family", and she was recently married, "This could be a great fallback for the family". And then lo and behold, nine months into her tenure, that's when she found out she was pregnant with me. And she did it for 22 years, and went again from Rikers, which is one of the most notorious prisons in our country to working at Manhattan Courts, which is a little more relaxed. Ché: But my mom is the toughest person I know. She's a soldier, she's a warrior, but also somehow like the most loving person ever know. Christian: How close were you and your grandmother, from your mother’s side? Ché: Very, My dad actually wasn't really around much growing up. So my mom's side is who I really knew well. And so my grandmother was the one that kind of took care of me while mom was at work, and so she got to hear a lot of my first words, and first things like that. And my grandmother, it's odd, for work, she would actually clean houses, and so I spent a lot of my Saturday and Sunday mornings going with her to affluent people's houses and sitting on couches watching cartoons. Ché: And so it was an interesting dichotomy, growing up in the Amsterdam Projects where I grew up, which public housing, and then going to these affluent Central Park West houses and seeing what it's like to have a doorman, what it's like to have people who are throwing words like sommelier around, and not having any idea what that meant. And having fancy dogs, and having big flat screen TVs before we had that, when we still had the TV with the knob on it. Which was... but again, all that frames kind of who you are as you go up, right? So because of that I think I always felt comfortable everywhere. Because I was able to experience that at an early age, and around all kinds of people. Because I was able to see all sorts of people from, again, the penurious that were struggling, trying to figure it out, to the princely, that were running around throwing thousands of dollars at their kids, or their nieces and nephews. Christian: That's pretty tough, I thought we had a similar background. My mom was cleaning... she was a home attendant, taking care of the elderly. Coming from the Projects, even going to these houses in Bushwick at the time. They weren't the best houses, but they were still houses. And I guess you could say it's similar, from coming from the Projects not really having nothing, to seeing these fish tanks, these bigger TVs, these rooms that, more than one bedroom, more than two bedrooms. These people have a lot more than me, it's not a lot, but it's a lot more than me. And just spending time with my mother like that, I guess that made me more comfortable being in different spaces, like you say. Christian: But I remember the first time I learned about you, hear about you, learn about you, because in class I was into stats, psych stats, and I was on the website, Holy Cross website in a see 40 under 40. So what stood out to me was that title, and it was a black man. So I got to figure out what this is, and I realized he was a Holy Cross alum. I was like, the first person I had- Marcellis. I know you know this man. Ché: Big shout to Marcellis Perkins too. Christian: Of course, he got some questions for you too. I was like, "Who is this man?", He was like, "Yeah, Ché Anderson, yada yada, alumni 2011". And we actually going to meet up pretty soon, I'll come through if you want, and then that was the first time I met up with you at Crossroads. I'm like, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool dude, talk fast". Ché: I do talk fast, sorry about that. Christian: No, you're good, yeah yeah yeah yeah... no but you talk real fast. I was like, "Yeah, he seem like a cool dude", I remember the first time you mentioned... That was the first time you mentioned to me that you had connects with the Pawtucket Red Sox, and then there was a big thing at the time that they were coming from... Ché: From Pawtucket to Worcester. Christian: Yeah to Worcester, I think they made it here right? Ché: Yeah, they are opening day is April, 2021. Christian: Yeah so, baseball was a big thing for me, still is. So I was like, "Yeah, I got to say connect to this man right here". Christian: But I know you got a lot of work with art and street art, so just going back to your childhood or teenage years, whatever, do you remember your first time experiencing that or seeing it and admiring it. Whether it was street art, art, any type of art form? Ché: Yeah, so my mom, when she did have days off, we had to go somewhere, every time. I think that part of her raising me was that she wanted me to experience everything that she couldn't. And that literally meant everything. Some Saturdays we would just go for a walk and we'd walk Central Park and walk down Fifth Avenue and just window shop, but it was cool to just see all the different things people were getting, and FAO Schwarz, which was down on 59th and then Fifth Avenue, the toy store from Big with the big piano and we'd go in there, and I'd inevitably convinced her to get me like a Ninja Turtle or something. But I had to see it, it was this big experience and we'd go to the American Museum of Natural History, or we go to the Guggenheim. And often I was way too young to really comprehend it, but my mom tried to make sure I saw everything. And I think that that... Those are some of my earliest memories experiencing art. And I remember walking through parts of Harlem, or parts of Brooklyn, or lower Manhattan, and you see graffiti and places but you're kind of fed this narrative that that's bad, that's desolate areas, you don't want that.   And oddly, it probably wasn't until seven or so years ago that I had this experience, and it's actually what led me on this path that I thought was really interesting. I was in Worcester, Post grad, living in a city I was sort of familiar with, but I didn't get off the Hill as much as I probably should have while I was a student. And the artist Banksy, from London, one of the most prominent public artists living today in modern history was doing a residency in New York City.   And my friends were running around taking pictures and posting them on Instagram, and I needed a new cool profile pic so I ran down to New York and I was blown away by how many people were traveling to New York City to catch a glimpse of this artwork. I came from Massachusetts, people were coming from Connecticut, and from Jersey, and growing up in New York, and you get this, quite often you stayed in your borough.   If you didn't have to travel to see family or a close friend that lives somewhere else. If you were from Manhattan, you stayed in Manhattan. If you were from Harlem, which is part of Manhattan, but you stayed in Harlem and that was it. And so people were coming from Staten Island taking the ferry to look at this artwork and I said, "This is awesome, where else is this happening?"   And eventually I started researching, and I learned about Wynwood, and more about what's happening in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia has this mural arts program that's been changing the city since the 1970's and I was like, "Hey, Worcester could do this, we have the wall space for sure, but we have a creative community, we've always kind of been an alternative community, let's see where it goes". And that was kind of it from there, it took off.   But it's one of those things where it's... I tell people, "You grew up in New York City and you don't really appreciate growing up in New York City until you leave New York City".   You know what I mean? You don't realize how many things you have at your fingertips, and how alive the city is, and how active it is, until you're at a city that closes down at midnight and you're just like, "What's going on?" Christian: I'd say 10 o'clock. Ché: Or until you're at a place and you're like, "Aw man, I can't sleep and I'm starving", but there's no bodega. Or you're like, "Aw man, I really want a Uber or taxi", and it's like, "No, there are none in the area right now, it's too late". And so it's not lost on me that what really made me appreciate being a New Yorker was not living in New York, and having to sort of figure out where to find the pockets that made me feel like I was home. Christian: I would've thought that you done a lot of research about graffiti, especially in the 80's in New York. Ché: Oh yeah, of course, at this point I have, but growing up, no. And I tell people this all the time, I think that people see 40 under 40, I got this award for this public art project that I'm always taking pictures with murals and I'm doing talks, and stuff about murals... That's all in the last 10 years. I didn't study that, I'm not classically trained in any of that. There are people that'll bring up famous artists to me, from different movements, and I'm just like, "Nope, no idea what you're talking about". But it goes to a point of, people have their belief of a right way to do something, and that you have to be the biggest scholar and that. You don't, like you can just be passionate about something, you could really like something and find your niche in that world.   And that's what it is for me. I appreciate the culture, I respect it, I've learned my history on it. So I'm not just someone that's a culture vulture that came in and was like, "I'm going to do this thing". No, I've sat with graffiti writers, I've had to hold some graffiti writers names close to the vest because no one needs to know that. But the fact of the matter is that as a person who appreciates neo-contemporary art, which is just the really fancy way of saying street art or graffiti, I was able to come humbly to a table and have a seat at it now, and have just open conversation.   And so this is a person who... I want it to be a lawyer, I was a poli- sci major, I interned with the Manhattan DA for seven years, that was it for me. And so to go from that, to this sort of hobby that's become a big part of my now job and everything else, I think is a testament to the fact that if at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Christian: Yeah. You mentioned neo... What is it? Ché: Oh, neo-contemporary art. It's a recently used, made up term, to allow people to contextualize what street art is. Street art has this sort of trivial, kind of fun sound to it, but if I talk to you about Renaissance art, you're like, "Oh wow, that's Renaissance art". Or if I mention modern art you're, "Oh my God, that's modern".   So people started calling street art neo-contemporary, new-age contemporary art, because you're now having people that have taken artwork and put it outside to make it public, and now they're taking that same aesthetic and bring it back inside some museums, and galleries, and spaces like that. So it's just a newly coined term to make it sound more official. Christian: Sounds like... So I'm going to dance class right now, and it sounds like, what they deal with B-boy and B-girl, and turn it into break dance, it's a commercialize it. Do you think it's the same? Ché: It's similar, I think that there are... the sad reality of it is that there are certain cultural norms that different people experience, and to make the masses feel comfortable with it, it becomes a different thing.   It's like when you talk about hip hop versus rap, there's none of this. But for some people, it's like, "Well, hip hop is a bit more nuanced, and safe, and rap is grungy and dirty and raw", and I tell people when it comes to street art and graffiti and such, I don't see a difference.   I think that they are synonyms, it's semantics. Both are generally painted with spray paint, outdoor. The difference is that one tends to be formalized and legal, and one's illegal. But if I paint a beautiful portrait of Dr. King on a wall, but I do it illegally, but it's gorgeous. It's perfect rendering, is that graffiti or is that street art? If I pay you $2,000 to paint your name on my wall, is that graffiti or street...   We get too deep into the weeds of it. Sometimes you got to just appreciate it. Again, I've seen some of the most beautiful art I've seen, bar none, gallery, museums included, online included. I've seen some gorgeous things people do with letters. And you think about typography in general, and how lettering, and hand lettering, and hand scripting, and hand styling has grown right from the clothes you wear, and the person who chose that font, to the way you type. There's a certain nuance to that.   And I've seen some of the best done publicly, by just graffiti writers. But that's just me. Christian: I think you did mention this, but do you make art yourself? Any type of art? Singing doesn't count cause you say you can't sing. Ché: Ow man, I can sing, just not well is what I'm saying. I don't do visual art.   But here's a fun fact that most people don't know about me. I write poetry. I have since I was younger. I don't perform it, I don't really share it, but I do. I've always done that, it's been what I turned to when I'm really stressed out or something, I write down a poem about something. And it's one of the main reasons why when I was on campus, and we had this organization called the Brother to Brother committee, we did this poem Black Man Rising, and we did it. A big part of doing that was that... it was like my outlet to actually perform some semblance of poetry. So no, I don't draw or anything. Christian: But you mentioned the Brother to Brother committee. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Turn into the Male Involvement Coalition, which I am the co-chair of. And we just performed Black Man Rising in The Griot. Did you hear about that? Ché: I did not hear about this particular, no I didn't. Christian: I do have a video I'll show you after. Ché: I need that, I need to see it. Christian: And we did perform it in my sophomore year at BSU fashion show at Mechanics Hall. Ché: Do you kick it off? Christian: Yeah. Ché: Are you the, "Look at yourself again. Alright... alright... You're not a Black Man Falling, You're a Black Man Rising, by James H. Chapman. Christian: We switched it up, it was dedicated to Rob Jones. Ché: Okay. All right, I hear you. Christian: It was a cool experience, and I just found out that you were the founding members of Brother to Brother committee. So talk to me about that and how it was back then. Ché: So when I was a sophomore, there was a conference members of the camps were invited to, and it was called the CHAS conference, the coalition for higher achievement and success... consortium for higher achievement success. And they had one that was specific to black and brown males. And so a group of us attended it, and were so uplifted at Skidmore by the people we're hearing from.   I believe at Skidmore, by the people we were hearing from and hearing new initiatives at other colleges and campuses, when we came back to campus, we ended up just meeting a bunch of times and discussing some of the issues that were affecting people in our communities. As we were talking about doing things inevitably, we hit a point where we started doing events but we weren't a recognized student organization. We were just a bunch of students doing these things that having talks, having dialogues, facilitating conversations and we were just dynamic. You had students that wanted to be architects, that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be doctors that were athletes, that were thespians. So we realized we kind of had something and said, "Okay, we could formalize this in RSO." There was Jeff Harris, who was class of 2012 went to high school with me and there were these two things we did in high school.   One was a daily affirmation and the other one was Black Men Rising that Jeff performed. So he introduced that to the campus and that became our calling card for this group. Then Antonio Willis-Berry, he was 2013, there was this Shawn whose last name is escaping me, but he was class of 2013, Jose Paz, who was class of 2012. We just had this group. Then there was a gentleman named Tyrone Billingsly who was kind of the elder statesman of our group along with Eric Collazo. The two of them didn't want a role officially. They were happy being like ex-official members but just guiding us because they'd been here longer. So when we finally got recognized, I was a senior advisor and Jeff was one of the co-chairs and we sort of just became this network of men on this campus that just wanted to talk about issues that impacted or afflicted us or just talk about uplifting things that were happening in the community, talk about music, eat some good food.   It really was his brotherhood that got developed. It's funny because initially, the way I became the Brother To Brother Committee is it started out as a Black and Brown Coalition, which sounded militant for some people, which we were cool with. But we said, "You know what? If indeed, we want to open this up, there's an opportunity," and we realized, You know what? There were folks on campus who weren't Black or Brown that were extreme allies, that were on the front lines for all these conversations and so we shouldn't exclude them like that. They're our brothers in arms. To be honest, there were women on campus who were willing to pick up arms, so to speak, and stand on those front lines and protest and argue with us in the same way. So there was this sort of overarching brotherhood, sisterhood, familial aspect of it.   But it all started with this group of brothers. So that was kind of that. What was crazy is, in the very first year as a recognized student organization, we have this picture that I love of ... there were five of us and we held seven awards from the SGA award ceremony, three for the organization and four for individual members of the organization. I was like, "This has to be a record for a first-year organization." It felt great to sort of have to prove why we belonged and then show like with our work that we were here just to make the campus a community, like a true community, which is wild.   Honestly, I remember the first time you told me about ... first of all I heard about the Men Involvement, the MIC. I was just like, "That sounds familiar. What happened to the BBC in it?" I think Rob Jones was just like, "Oh yeah. It kind of became this other group." I remember meeting you and Marcellis and some other brothers and I was like, "I couldn't have hoped for anything better." Part of it, it makes you sad. You're like, "Wow, they have some of the same conversations we had almost a decade ago." You wonder if that's sort of just the nature of being on a campus, having new students and you're always onboarding new people. But to see that there were people here who were dedicated and you know what I mean? It makes me happy to like sit across from you and be like, "Oh man, this is me 10 years ago." Christian: I appreciate that. I really do. I think that's the reason why we ended up calling it MIC because they were people who didn't identify as being Black or Brown, but who had the same struggles that we have as males and that's why we're open to any male. Our meetings are open to anybody. There are a lot of people who want to help us, who feel like even if they don't agree with some of the things that we believe in, they want us to know that. I think that results into a great dialogue, great conversations and us doing things on campus to made the campus better, so yeah. Ché: So Black Man Rising was super controversial the first time we did it. Christian: Why? Ché: Because effectively, you had this group of ... and our first group that did Black Men Rising were Jeff Harris, 2012, who played basketball, Freddie Santana, who's Puerto Rican, from New York, my year, 2011. Mudiaga Ohimor, who my year as well. Mud was 250, 6' 8". He was a big dude. Jonathan St. Firmin who was another New York guy who we know. Jonathan is probably like 5' 9" and if he's taller than 5' 9" and he's listening, I'm sorry Jonathan, but about 5' 9" to me, probably like 150, like a smaller dude and then myself. So you had this interesting range of gentlemen. Some were quieter, some were bigger, into parties. Some were athletes, some weren't, but you had this sort of force of effectively militant looking men talking about the powers of a Black man on a predominantly White campus.   So people were like, "You know what? This may not be the best thing for us, where we come off as too aggressive." We were just like, "Us? Aggressive? We're going to do it anyway. We're going to do it anyway." So we did. There were people inside our group, there were people inside the administration who were kind of like, "You know, this could not go the right way." We said, "There's something to speaking your truth that's important. This is what we experience and maybe we have a dialogue around that afterwards." But we did it and we got a standing ovation and organizations around Worcester asked us to come off campus and perform it, because it was something that was unique at the time for this group that you may not always see together kind of speaking truth to power, if you will. So yeah man, it was something. Christian: I feel that, no, I definitely feel that. I remember first being introduced to it ... My first year as the MIC freshman and sophomore year it was, I'll say, very slow. Not a lot of people attended. But like myself personally, I didn't feel as if it was that important. I wasn't into this, who I am now, into this like Black man power, being a Black man, especially on this campus. I wasn't really into that. I was just trying to go through school, get my degree, all that stuff, whatever. But then I really talked to Marcellis and other people, they introduced me to that. Like the importance of being a Black man. Christian: I know even coming from New York, the only thing I had to worry about was the police, because there wasn't a lot of White people that I really had to worry about. I came from a really mixed culture, like everybody from every ... It's New York. You know what I'm saying? You see everybody. But just being on campus was a different vibe and I didn't get that notion until sophomore year. Towards the end of sophomore year, that's when I would ... actually, towards the end of sophomore year, second semester after we did Black Man Rising I saw the power that we had. I saw the audience that we had, the support that we had. It opened my eyes and it was just like, "Damn. We do got power." Ché: You do. Christian: When you talk about it being controversial now, it will make me do it even more. I think freshman year and sophomore year, beginning of sophomore year I was like, "Hey, it was controversial. Let me not ... " Ché: It takes time to, I think, part of the collegiate experience, particularly if you're a student of color or someone whose English wasn't their first language or something to that effect there's the natural onboarding, right? You're 18, 17, 19 years old trying to figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Trying to make it to 8:30 classes when everyone knows they suck. Christian: Mine was actually pretty good. Ché: Well lucky you, I guess, but you have that experience and then it's how do you socialize? How do you meet people? How do you make friends? How do you figure out who you are? Who are you, right? Whose are you? How do you look? How do you dress? What do you comfortable in? There was a guy when I was at Holy Cross named Tom, everyone called him Pajama Pants Tom. Pajama Pants Tom literally wore pajama pants to everything. He worked at Kimball. He wore them to class. Pajama Pants Tom had a 4.0 and took six classes every semester from the time he was a first-year student. He audited classes because he just wanted to learn more. I think he got a Fulbright, went abroad, came back with long hair. Looked just like Jesus. It was amazing. Pajamas Pants Tom was one of the smartest people I ever met.   But if you looked at him and saw this kid walking into class in the winter in pajama pants and flip flops, you're like, "What's wrong with this person?" but he was comfortable with himself early on and so that didn't matter. So I think that some get there earlier but there's that dynamic of just like, "I'm just trying to get these A's and go on." But also real quick, I just have to shout out Shawn Johnson because I realized his last name was Johnson, as well as Matt Harper and Darien and Jose Paz and Jeremiah Gonzalez.   Darien Henry was actually our freshmen apprentice, our first year student who was part of the group. The reason why I had to shout them out the same way that Eric and Tyrone was, because when I say it was a brotherhood, like I meant that, right? Like Lance Williams, like there are people who I don't see all the time, but if ever something happened, if every one of them had a big thing, Tony Zelayandia, that's family. It really is. So from the time that we were 20, 21, 19 years old to now, I'm 30 it is intriguing to me to think I'm on campus and we started this thing here and now people are going to be class 2023 they're on campus and people are still joining this thing. Man, that's something. Christian: Yeah, we definitely got it. We got freshmen really into it. It's just the legacy that you have and you see it grow and grow and it's just amazing. I'm glad to be a part of that legacy. MIC... Brother to Brother... It's a brotherhood that's kind of... so I notice... so I read that your mother played a big part in you going to Holy Cross, right? Ché: Yeah. Man. Christian: I feel like the question is asked a lot, what made you go to Holy Cross? What made you stay at Holy Cross? Ché: That's a good question. When I was deciding where I wanted to go, being the first in my, I think, semi-extended family to go to college, my mom, who was like, "I have to do everything right with her firstborn," hit a point where she said, "You know. You need to go to Harvard." I was just like, "You're right. I should go to Harvard." So we looked at schools, mainly looked at Ivy league schools, but I was going to a Jesuit high school in Harlem, New York. Big shout out to Rice High School. Christian: Wait, what's the name of it? Ché: Rice High School. Christian: Right. I feel like I know people from there but it's not there anymore. Ché: Kemba Walker- Christian: Right. Okay. He's not there anymore. Ché: ... plays for the Boston Celtics went to Rice High School. But no, my high school is not there anymore, which is sad. It's sad. The bodega across street's still there. Christian: It's still there. Ché: Rice not there. But I was looking at a lot of Ivy league schools. My mom, wanted me to look at Morehouse because she thought there was something special about being, again, around other men who look like me and maybe had similar struggles or similar situations. Actually, a brother who was at Rice High School said, "You know what I think what would be a great institution for him? College of the Holy Cross." My mom looked into it, saw similarities to my high school. Thankfully, it wasn't an all boys school, all men's college. I did that for four years in high school, but she said, "I think this would be a great space for you. It's not too big. Great academics." At that time I felt that I was an athlete, so she was like, "Maybe you can do something around sports." I did not. I did not while I was here. Christian: We're going to talk about that too. Ché: No. But after talking about it, it actually was my second choice. After all the looking at colleges, I thought I wanted to go to Columbia. For me, I was like, "That's where I'm going, it's 20 blocks from where I grew up. One of my best friends in the world was going there." It was perfect. My mom said, "You need to leave New York." It actually is one of the best decisions she's ever sort of made for me. At the time I was angry, but her thing was so much of my family is in New York and stayed in New York and I needed to see something else. I had to see another part of the world. Oddly enough, it was only four hours away, but I said, "Okay. We'll see Holy Cross. Then if I don't like it, I guess I'll transfer." During my first semester here, I actually was uncomfortable.   I just it was too far and all my friends were back in New York and I was trying to acclimate to the new environment and Worcester wasn't New York City. I remember calling her and saying, "Ma, I need to go back home. I got to transfer to Columbia." She said, "Nope." She said, "Nope. I'm not helping you with any of the tuition, so you do that if you want to." Christian: You're paying for it. Ché: Right and I was just like, "Nope. I'm broke." I think for her it was, "You know what? You got to see this through and at the end of the day, if you don't like it, come back to New York." I find it to be intriguing that now it's been 13 years since I first got to Worcester and I still live here. Now I'm one of the biggest Cheerleaders in the city. But that's because of my mom kind of making me get here and honestly because of the campus, over time, making me fall in love with it. There was a person here before Rob named Boyd Servio-Mariano, Dr. Boyd Servio-Mariano. He's a doctor now, so I got to say that. Doc, which is what I call him, he spotted me as a first year student. There was a competition, a dance contest, during ALANA Student Weekend. Oh yeah, I used to boogie. I used to get down. So I got up on stage and won this dance contest. Christian: You won. Ché: Yeah. Yes I did. Christian: What was the competition? Ché: It was just they played music and you've got the freestyle to it and they played like an old Chris Brown song. It was Run It or something. I won and that was Friday night. Then Saturday night they did a trivia contest for Explore Asia. There was a group called Asia, which was for Asian students or Asian-American students. Christian: It's still here. Ché: So they had an Asian trivia contest and I went up against a kid, Chris Bondoc who actually went to my first high school before I transferred high schools. He's an Asian-American student. We had a trivia contest and I won. Point for me, take that Chris, all these years later. But Doc grabbed me and was just kind of like, "If you come here, you got to come find me." I was like, "All right, older guy. That's strange." Then I do come to campus, I realized because he went to my high school and at the time again, I was a young person with a lot of energy and didn't know all the best places to put it, so I was just running around and going crazy.   He grabbed me up and said, "Hey, you should come to this multicultural peer education group." I was just like, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm not. I'm sorry." Then the MPEs, received tickets to the Boston Celtics game in Worcester. I said, "Oh, I need tickets to this game." He goes, "Only way to get tickets is if you come to a few meetings." I was just like, "Ah. You got me." Christian: He got you. Ché: So I came to the meetings and I loved it and I loved what they were talking about and I was all for it. then I went to the Celtics game and that was it. I'd inadvertently found myself a mentor. We literally had a conversation this past weekend. That's my guy. But he's another person who worked in the Office of Multicultural Education and picked me up and helped mold me into a productive person. That's what helped keep me at Holy Cross that he introduced me to guys like Tyrone Billingsly and Eric Collazo and other brothers on campus that were doing great things. He kind of forced me into, or some organizations that led to me getting on the BSU board and knowing the infrastructure to help found the Brother To Brother Committee.   He got me involved off campus and working with local junior high schools and high schools and talking to young people off campus and understanding what nonprofits role in developing a city were or an interfacing with a college. He kept me on the right kept me in shape when I stepped out of line, like a big brother would. So really, I think that he's a big part of that. I had somebody to look out for me because honestly, we all have on campus who knows kind of what happens, right? Like do I just spiral out and kind of not go on to do some things I've done. I don't know. So I think that's what kept me. My mom got me here, to be honest and then I had a mentor, I had a big brother who made sure I finished out strong. Christian: You kind of answered my next question. Who you we went to when anything went well or went wrong. Ché: I had some upperclassmen, like I said, Tyrone. I got Lawrence Dickson who play basketball. He's a cool dude. I saw him at the game the other night. Eric Collazo who was my RA my first year, rocky start, but then I was dancing at his wedding. When I say the brotherhood is strong, I mean that. So I think those are the people I turn to. And then there are people younger than me too, right? Like Jeff who wants a high school with me was a guy I roomed with my junior year when he was a sophomore. We had a quad. My first year roommate was my roommate every single year. That's still one of my best friends. If anyone could ever marry him, which, tough order, I'll be his best man. That's that.   Big shout out to Stefan. But I feel like I had this network also and I have to give her a huge shout out. Brianna Turner, who was my year at Holy cross. Licensed Social Worker, dynamic woman. They used to call us the velvet glove and the iron fist because Bri could make something out of nothing. She was just dynamic and got things done. We were the two co-chairs or the leads, I guess, because NPS didn't have co-chairs. So she was very task-oriented, goal-oriented, task master, bullet point list and I was the velvet glove. Like I'm going to make the sound beautiful and like sell it to the masses. It worked well because we both knew our strengths.   She was another person who those days where I was like, "I don't feel like doing this," would pick me up by my collar and be like, "Nah, come on. We got stuff to do. Let's get after it. So I learned a lot about project management as a student here because of Bri. I don't think Bri would even consider that or acknowledge that or call it project management. But she was someone who got me to understand, task management. I took that with sort of the personality that I had and I'm like, that's what helped me become a project manager for the City. Christian: That's fire. So I will have to say my person is Rob Jones. Shout out to Rob Jones. Ché: Big shout out to Rob Jones. Christian: He put me into MIC, put me on to a MIC and kind of like forced me into MIC, in a way. Ché: I see a trend. That was the trend. Christian: I think we all need those people to go to even just to talk to. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but did you ever feel uncomfortable because of how you looked, or who you ... Christian: ... feel uncomfortable because of how you looked or who you were on campus? Ché: Yeah, I- Christian: Or even, so sorry to cut you off, have you ever felt the impostor syndrome? Ché: Oh, I still feel imposter syndrome now. Yeah. To answer the first part, your question, I am a lot of things. There are a lot of words to describe me, right. But for me, I'm an African American male from New York City, right. I love hip hop and rap music. I love ridiculous movies. I love sports. Some of that is considered stereotypical, right. Expected of me as a six foot three male who looks like me. And I think I struggled with that at first when I got to campus, right. I started listening to a lot more Bruce Springsteen, and Def Leppard, and Poison, and Mötley Crüe, and country music, which I never listened to growing up, but I was like all right, Dixie Chicks is going to be it because I want it to fit in to what a Holy Cross student was, right. I stopped wearing the stuff that I was wearing and started switching up and going, all right. I could wear some khakis and boat shoes. Christian: Right what you're wearing now. Ché: Yeah, but I wear this for work. Don't come at me like that, all right.   Don't do me like that. I have to go in a closet, all right. But honestly, right, I was just like this is what's expected of a Holy Cross student. And I went through that for a year of just why am I wearing these cardigans all the time? Honestly, right. Because that I thought that was ... And then it took me a minute to get comfortable in myself to be like you know what? If you didn't hear the new Gucci Mane album, that's your fault. You're missing out, right. I'm not the one ruined and things. And yeah, I mean I dress like this for work, but in all seriousness, I think that getting back into whatever I felt was appropriate for me and whatever culture I represented, it took a minute, but I got there. And I think that as far as imposter syndrome, I think that was part of it, right. I was trying to acclimate and blend in because I wanted to feel like I was a part of something, not realizing I was already a part of something.   And even now I find myself in some rooms, or on some boards, or on some committees and I walk in and I'm just like I can't believe I'm here. And I think that almost everyone feels. I know famous, well-paid, well-off people that I've got a chance to meet who will confide that they feel like they don't belong in some of the rooms they get, or they feel like they shouldn't have won the awards compared to some of their peers. And I think that's just natural. You know what I mean? I think when you do something extraordinary, quite often you don't expect to do something extraordinary. It happens and you fall into it, and you're like oh my God, here's this thing. And a lot of that is just a team around you. I have a team around me of friends, and coworkers, and confidence, mentors and mentees that will lift me up when I need it. And like, "You did some dope, you did a TED talk. That's great. Enjoy that."   And the ones that will deflate my ego sometimes. They're just like, "You're acting out. Relax. All right, let's not forget the way you dress for work," like you did to me. So I think that's all important to your makeup. A lot of people will say look at your five closest friends and that'll tell you who you are. And I think that that's a really simplistic way to look at it, but the people that you surround yourself with, the people that you spend most of your voluntary time with, that tells you a lot about who you are and who you can be. They're the ones that define some of your limitations, however you may see them, because they're going to limit you or they're going to push you to whatever's next. And so I'm lucky to have some people that I consider good friends or just kind of friends that I can call on and say, "Here's this crazy opportunity." They'll be like, "Go get it. Go after it. And if you don't get it, at least now you know how to do this thing that can maybe get the next opportunity to you." Christian: Told you I was going to get back to that athletic dream that you had, because honestly, all jokes aside, I had the same goal. I was trying to walk on to the baseball team. It didn't work out. I think that was probably the toughest thing I ever had to face all my life. I mean I went from a real high to a real low, and it was just like I was doing things that I probably would've never done before. I felt like I was trying to find myself again because before that happened I was a baseball player. After that, I didn't know who I was or what I was. I was really trying to find myself. I feel like you probably went through the same thing. Ché: Similar. I think that that I was always a nerd first. You know what I mean? I was always an academic, but I love sports and I was okay at them, and so it's funny, I got here. That did not work out, obviously, walking on or anything. And then played club basketball, intramurals. We won intramurals four years, twice in the A league, twice in the B league, a big shot, but we lost the championship. Anthony DiMichele, who's a football player, they beat us. And if I don't mention it, he was going to mention it, or make a comment or something when they posted it, so I just got to put it out there. But I never stopped playing. The school is getting a new field house, right. And that's fine. But back before they destroyed the last field house, my name was on the back board up until two years ago, right. Because we did a dunk contest and I dunked and put my name up with a sticker. That is like the best part of any legacy I got sports-wise on campus, and that was cool. That was cool that it still stayed there. But I think, back to your point, at some point you have to rebrand, just figure out what your thing is, right. It's like if you're a person that threw amazing parties in college, and then you look back and you're like wow, I'm 53 and I still throw these crazy house parties. Not saying that's not fine. If that's your thing, cool. Shout out to all my 53-year-olds throwing parties. But that just wouldn't be what I want to be known for, right. I'd hope that I had accomplished something in my life. And I think that a big part of the growth of your experience through your time on a campus is understanding that you can be dynamic. You don't have to be ... In high school you kind of fall into well, I am an athlete. I'm a great student. I'm the captain of the chess team. You have that thing that defines you. Ché: And I feel like as you grow, you want to be a utility person, you want to be dynamic. You want people to go, "Oh yeah, Christian. I know him from this thing," in one room and then another room go, "Oh right, but he's also really great at this thing." I think that you can be many things to many people, and that's something that it took me a while to learn, but once I did, that was it. I want it to be the Renaissance of all Renaissance. Christian: So I got a lot more questions. So all right, after your Holy Cross years. Oh wait, so a question. What are the untold stories of Holy Cross from your end? Ché: The untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: Yeah, spilling the beans out here. Ché: There's a trillion untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: We just need one. Ché: All right. One thing that happened on campus one year was we were talking about the experiences that students of color have on predominant white institutions campus. And we thought about some of the HBCUs and how they have yard shows, right. Stomp shows and such. And so we threw one. So when I was a senior, we figured out ways to finagle some money. Christian: On campus? Ché: On campus. And some of the administrators had contacts because they're a part of historically black Greek letter organizations. And we rented a stage. And right in the Kimball Quad, right down the stairs, the same way they do battle of the bands, we took that stage, we brought out four step teams. We had the Rhythm Nation Steppers also perform. We had people cooking out, right. They were cooking burgers, catfish, fried fish, like they did back down South. People were doing sides and soul food. We have food from the local places. Addie. Do you know Addie? Addie wasn't around at the time, this place called Sweet Teas, but yeah, same kind of feel, right. We even got some food from up at Home Style, right. And we got a microphone, and we had a DJ, and the DJ was playing hip hop, urban music the whole time. And then when there was time for show time, they did their step show, and we had a ball. And then we throw after party afterwards up at Hogan.   And for me it was amazing because for that six-hour period we got to feel like the campus was ours, right. And I think that that, for me, was a beautiful thing because the students came from BC, and from BU, and Becker, and Clark. I mean it was packed, not just Holy Cross students, because other people wanted to see what it'd be like if they also, at their traditionally none necessarily super diverse campus, can come and see just what a mass of us would look like, and what a party for all of us looked like. And it was something. And so I'd say that it was something I wish would've continued after we were gone because I think it is a good reminder of what can happen.   Similar to when Holy Cross played Howard, and Howard brought the band, and the dancers, and everyone up. And then four of us ended up going down to Howard the next weekend to visit. Class one Friday wasn't important that weekend. But we went down to Howard and we got to go to their homecoming, and there were so much love from Howard. They brought us on the field. We got to do the swag surf with everybody, because it was just oh, look at these three students of color who are extending themselves beyond Worcester to come down here to this area. And so that love was something that literally inspired us to bring it back and have this yard show step show. So there's some stuff that doesn't make it through kind of the storytelling pass down components of what we're doing, but is something that one of the things I hang my hat on this campus. Christian: You definitely should. Ché: I was excited. Christian: But transitioning into after college. So MCPHS. Got it. Boom. University. Right. Assistant director of engagement or student affairs? Ché: Student activities, student engagement. Christian: Okay. And initially wanted to get into law and government, but ended up there. Ché: At a college. Christian: Right. If you want to talk about that, you can. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Yeah, go ahead. Ché: Yeah. So I was prelaw, poli-sci. I got to my senior year and realized I don't think I want to be a lawyer anymore. And after my mom stopped crying, she was like, "What are you going to do?" Christian: I mean hold on. Not that there aren't any lawyers coming out of Holy Cross. Did she expect that? Ché: Oh yeah. No, for her, that was it. Christian: Interesting. Ché: My son, the lawyer was how a lot of conversations started. That was a thing. Christian: So Thanksgiving was- Ché: It was awkward. It was awkward, yeah. I only got one serving of mac and cheese, so you know how that goes. But she effectively was just like, "What are you going to do?" And I said, "For the first time in my life, I really don't know, but I do know I'm not moving home. I'm going to figure it out." And I start applying to jobs and looking for opportunities. And one of the former VPs here was Jackie Peterson, who's amazing. She recommended that I apply for the position at MCPHS. And I was staying on campus. I was working at [OME 00:49:20] for the summer, and they paid me a small stipend and then I got to live on campus, so I got a place to stay. And I interviewed for this position that was totally above my punching weight. You know what I mean? I was like I'm not going to get this. And Dean Peterson sends a recommendation and it got me the interview.   And again to that earlier point, right, sometimes you just need that foot in the door to make it happen, and I must've crushed the interview because they pulled me in and said, "Hey, we think you'd be great for this position." Right. First person ever in this position, I get to build and develop a program based on some other things they've been doing, and I said, "Let's do it." And I spent two years there working with students, working for students, engaging with people. The highlight of my time there is I got inducted into Phi Lambda Sigma, which is a pharmacy fraternity, not a pharmacist, but in this pharmacy frat, so shout out to all my brothers and sisters from Phi. Christian: I tried to hold it in. Ché: No, that's cool. That's cool. I got a pin and everything. It's official. But you know what? While there I had a supervisor who was a Dean of students, effectively the de facto leader of campus, named Shuli Xi, and he was so into the idea of me being a statesman. He would always say that to me. Don't be a politician, be a statesman. You want to be a person of and for the people and with the people, not just someone looking to get elected. And because of that, he brought me into his government affairs meeting. He made sure that when there was a consortium of the colleges that, I guess, I served on the student activities one, but also went to some of the student affairs ones in general with people who were in positions way above my own.   When I told him I wanted to join a committee at the chamber of commerce, he said, "Fine, and we'll give you the time off you need when you got to go to those meetings." When I told them I want it to be a Rotarian, and at the time I was one of the youngest Rotarians in the city, part of the Worcester Rotary Club, he said, "Great, we'd love to have MCPHS represented there." And so he supported sort of the dynamism of me going I don't know what I want to do, but I want to do everything and see what's going on. And he was cool with that. Even down to when I went and told him I was leaving to go work for the city, for the government, he wasn't like, "Oh my God," he was just like, "I'm sorry to lose you. But yeah, that's the next step of your life." He looked out for me as a person, which I appreciated so much. And my time there was great. I know a lot of pharmacists now and optometrists. Getting my glasses is super easy. If ever I need acupuncture, I get a discount.   That's sweet. But it was a great step in transitioning from 22 to 24 because I learned how to be in charge of something, right. Student activities was mine. The budget, I managed the Student Government Association, I developed a campus activities board and managed them. And so I learned project management, I learned people management. It was great, and it was a perfect transferable thing for kind of the next step in my career. So it was a kind of unique path. But again, it goes back to there's no right way to do anything. You kind of figure it out as you go. Christian: So I wanted to ask you what do you think has a big impact on a community? Let's say for yourself as an individual working at a desk, law and government. That's my view. Law and government. Or working with the community as you do now? Ché: So the answer I'm going to give you is a cop out answer, I'm going to let you know that, but there's a reason why. And so it is a reason why. Neither one of them, quite honestly, is more important than the other one. I think that they both, and as cliché as it sounds, are both equal for different reasons, right. I think that if you're a person that is solely behind a desk, and let's say you solely work on legal matters, on policy, on development of strategies, that is how you input change. That's how you impact things to a point that they're standardized, right. I can be a great leader and I can say, "You know what? As long as I'm in office, this is going to be the thing," but as soon as I'm out of office, if someone else just comes in and goes, "I don't believe in that," that's done. There's no policy there. There's nothing kind of on paper. There's no legal ramification of it. It only impacts a very small population or people at a certain time.   I think that when it comes to community development, community impact, you want something that has longevity, right. Every parent wants for their kid to not have to struggle the same way they did. I think that that should work as far as generations of constituents and community. I don't want the next you, or me, or whoever to have to fight the same fights I fought. Then what did I do for that time I was around? But I think that you want to be authentic to the place you are, and that there's a component that has to come from the community, right. Holy Cross' whole mission ... I just always say men and women for others. And then it was a shift to men, and women for and with others. And that shift is important, it's imperative, right. It's not about doing things for people, it's about doing things with people, bringing them along, having a conversation, knowing when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow.   And so I think that you got to work with the community to see what the community wants, right. Because you could have a great idea and the community could be like, "We don't care about this right now," right. "We have this other more dire thing." And so you have to know what the thing is before you can implement policy, or structure, or an infrastructure around it. But if you just have people that are, let's say, marching in the street, and fighting the man, and having ideas, but no-one flipped that switch to implement policy, well then you just have angry people, and another population of angry people who are mad that this population's angry, and they are just butting heads and not getting anything. If you just have people sitting in a room being bureaucrats, then nothing actually permeates to the community because you have no idea what the community wants. You're just doing whatever you saw online, or on TV and you think you're doing the best thing, but the two of you come together, that's how change actually happens. That's how real, positive, sustainable change happens.   So I'm a person that hates sitting behind my desk, to be honest. I'm not a fan of it. I'm a person that wants to be around people. And you have those days where you're like I've had nine meetings in a row. I haven't eaten. I've been just taking information in. But if I don't have time to go sit down and write that stuff up, and write those notes, and get it out to other departments to make things happen, or follow up with community partners because I didn't really understand something they said, but I want to do more with it, I'm missing the boat. So I know I just kind of said both, and that's not the answer you want, but I do think that both are equally important. Christian: Yeah, I kind of expect that coming from you. Ché: I mean, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Christian: Yeah. And you did mention the mission statement. Holy Cross mission statement. I feel like you have that before you even got to Holy Cross. Is that true? Ché: Oh yeah. That's the way I was raised. My mom said two things to me every day from the time that I was probably 3 or 4 going off to school, to the time that I was 18. My mother always said, "Hey, listen. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated," which is just basic. But to this day, she still, "Treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and be a leader, not a follower." To the point that when I was 10, she'd say, "Be a leader," and I'd say, "Not a follower. Leave me alone," but I think that for her there was something about making my own decision, and being able to decipher what's right from what's wrong.   And also whether I'm walking into any building, whether it's the person that's the concierge, or the person picking up trash, or the maintenance person, or the CEO of a company, you treat everybody with respect, and you show love to everyone. And I take that even beyond that, right. Whether I'm walking in City Hall and I'm talking to the mayor, or the grounds crew, or a person who might be homeless in front of City Hall, I say, "What's up?" I show love. I don't always have things to help, but I'm always going to give you respect as a human being.   And I think that that's something my mother instilled in me and then it moved on through all my schooling, and the Holy Cross sort of just drove it home a bit. But that's just the way that I was raised. Christian: So you got this mission statement Holy Cross, but then you got your own from back home: be a leader, not a follower. And so was the other one? Ché: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Christian: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. I kind of struggle on that. There was one where treat everyone the way you think they should be treated. Ché: Yep. That one, I think, gets problematic. Christian: Yeah. Ché: I think no one wants me treated poorly, right? Christian: Right. Ché: So the idea is that you reciprocate that. I think treat everyone the way you think they should be treated gets into some real interesting things with some of your own biases or implicit biases or unrecognized issues you may have with some things. I think it's well-intended, but I think that it can lead to some interesting situations. Christian: And the one I never agreed with was treat everybody the same. Ché: Nope, same. I think though, whenever you talk about things like DEI, right, diversity, equity, inclusion, there's a reason that it's equity and not equality, right? There's an image people always paint of if you have three kids looking over a fence and they're different heights and you give them the same size box, that's equality. Everyone has the same stuff. That doesn't help all the kids, right? You want equity. You want the really short kid to have a taller box because then they can all see the game. And I think that in certain pockets of our communities, you're starting to see that. It needs to permeate more, but that equity is important. And that doesn't mean that you give everyone a dollar, right? The millionaire doesn't necessarily need that dollar, but that person that's struggling maybe needs $5 or $10 to make it out. And that's obviously me oversimplifying it, but I think that that's part of that being someone for and with others, you know what I mean? Christian: Yeah. Ché: It's the width to understand what the need is, and then it's the for that if you have more, you got to help out. And I don't mean to get all socialist here. That's not what I'm trying to do, but I'm being honest. Christian: Yeah, for real, bro. Ché: You know what I mean? You have to be realistic and then understanding what the needs are of people, if we're going to truly help and benefit people. Christian: Yeah. So I guess with the combination, if you have a combination with what your mother taught you and what Holy Cross taught you, have you ever came up with a mission statement that drives you to do the work you do now? Ché: The honest truth is that I have a statement that that drives me. It has a swear in it. You can figure out which word that is, that that is the one. I have two things that matter to me that drive everything I do. The first is I want to impact my community. And so that's whatever I have, right: time, talent, treasure, anything. I want to make sure that when all is said and done, whenever my last moment is here, that people said he cared and he did good by us, whatever that community can mean. And that can be my hyperlocal community, that can be my global community, whatever the case is.   The other is do cool stuff. And I think that for me, there's something special about doing projects that people think are interesting and fun. Not that there aren't things that are just that ... like making the microchip is important, and for some people that's super interesting. For the other people it's all right, whatever. But for me, I want to do stuff that people are like, "Aw man, that was awesome. That was an experience. That was a moment." Because creating moments is difficult in life and you hope to have and share a bunch with other people. So if I can combine the two and I can do things that are going to impact and change my community for the better and make sure that stuff is cool, that's what both allows me to rest but also keeps me up at night. You know what I mean? Christian: Yeah, I got you. Ché: Like thinking of how to do it, but then sleeping happy when I make it happen. Christian: Yeah, definitely feel that. What was your favorite project so far? Ché: One of them's a selfish answer, and one's not. I'm going to give you two quick ones. This year as part of the public art project POW! WOW! that I helped bring to Worcester, we were able to paint murals and do workshops and activations with youth in a public housing area of the city of Worcester. And we also painted on the abutting schools and did workshops in the abutting schools to this area. And so we got to work with a population that doesn't necessarily see academic development the same way, that doesn't feel it the same way, that may not even know it's happening, with kids that quite often feel overlooked. And I know, because I was one of those kids growing up.   And so to go over there and have these young people feel a new appreciation for the arts and feel like celebrities are coming around their neighborhood to paint, and getting tutorials from people that have worked with Dis

I’m not pretty enough I am not smart enough You don’t make enough money so you are a failure You’re too fat You aren’t a real Christian You don’t do enough You aren’t pure   Are these thoughts consuming your mind?  Do you KNOW that they aren’t from God? Today, we dive into taking our thoughts captive and turning them around on the enemy.   If you loved this episode - subscribe, download, review and screenshot and share! I am excited to go on this journey and share it with you! God has a purpose for us all and this is mine! So enjoy and know that all things are possible with God. Follow me on IG to stay up to date on lifes latest and greatest: www.instagram.com/iam_nikmarie www.instagram.com/unashamedfaithshow   To join our Unashamed Faith Facebook Group for women go to: https://www.facebook.com/groups/841820462907948/?ref=share   “God is within her, she will not fall” Psalms 46:5

My guest today is Christian Crumlish. Christian has led product and design teams in organizations ranging from startups to large tech companies. In this conversation, we delve into the relationship between digital product management and information architecture, and how we might be more empowered as users of these systems. Listen to the full conversation   Show notes Christian Crumlish (mediajunkie.com) Dungeons and Dragons Paladin Yahoo! Design in Product Slack community Richard Saul Wurman Understanding Context: Environment, Language, and Information Architecture by Andrew Hinton Pervasive Information Architecture: Designing Cross-Channel User Experiences by Andrea Resmini and Luca Rosati Reframing Information Architecture by Andrea Resmini (Editor) Information Architecture for the Web and Beyond by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, and Jorge Arango Living in Information: Responsible Design for Digital Places by Jorge Arango Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love, Second Edition by Marty Cagan Shape Up: Stop Running in Circles and Ship Work That Matters by Ryan Singer Basecamp Objectives and key results (OKRs) Measure What Matters: How Google, Bono, and the Gates Foundation Rock the World With OKRs by John Doerr Amazon Kindle Matte Scheinker Airtable Asana Tinderbox The Informed Life Episode 6: Beck Tench on Tinderbox Notion Wikis From UX to Product (Christian's video series in the UIE All You Can Learn Library) The Information Architecture Conference Web Directions Product Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: Christian, welcome to the show. Christian: Thanks Jorge, I'm happy to be here. Jorge: So, for folks who don't know you, would you please introduce yourself? Christian: Sure. My name is Christian Crumlish. I'm a writer, product and UX leadership consultant, information architect and I guess I do other things too, but that's plenty. Jorge: I've been privy to the arc of your career over the last, I would say 15, maybe 20 years? No, 15 years. And you're one of the folks out of several that I know that have focused on product. And I was hoping that you would tell us a little bit about that aspect of your work. Christian: I'm glad it's only been 15 years, because sometimes the spans of time are starting to freak me out a little bit. But I think for me, a lot of what my title has been and what sort of roles or jobs I've done in companies and at other times as a consultant or you know, agency designer or strategist, the titles have evolved over time or changed. And in fact, when you mentioned that arc to my career, I thought like, if only you had my career had been in the shape of an arc, that would be so cool. Cause it's been more like a zigzag down or up, you know, along some rapids or something. I feel like I've shifted gears a number of times. I was talking to a D&D… A person who also had played D&D as a kid, and we were talking about the paladin-type character that you have to cross-train in like several different… You know, you have to learn, like to be a religious person and also a night and there's probably a third thing, and how it slows you down in a sense. You know, you don't do that. Like people who knew they wanted to go to med school when they were six and have stayed on that straight path their whole lives. My career has been like a path of discovery. But along the way, I've been given a lot of different titles, or I've asked for or invented titles as needed. And so, I was a content strategist back before that was almost even a thing, around 2000. And I was an information architect, and that was my title for a while. And I was a director of strategy, and I was in an interaction designer, and I was a design pattern library curator, or pattern detective, as I liked to say at the time. And along the way I started noticing that the frame of a product — that talking about what was being made a software as a product — was a fairly dominant kind of lens that was being used in the businesses I was working in. And I think I first really came to my attention at Yahoo when I was there for about three or four years. And the product organization was sort of on a par with the tech organization, the UX part of the shopper, UED as they called it, was itself really just a subdivision of the product organization, and ultimately always reported up to people with product management titles. The deep history of that at Yahoo was that they had people called “producers” early on, and in certain nineties in the web, if you made content there was often more of a television medium terminology and so producers of content. But half the people who had producer titles at Yahoo became front end developers because they'd actually been making the content, and the others evolved into the product management role. And that also took from a program management role at Microsoft. There's a lot of antecedents to this. But ultimately, the first thing I saw was that at least in these larger companies, user experience design was at the table, but they're sort of the kiddy table. And that they had these parents called product people. And so that made me think just from the desire to get close to the decision-making or to be able to make an impact, I thought, “I have to learn more about product, or why it's called product or what product management is.” Along the way, these practices have continued to evolve and in relationship to each other. I think there's a very active conversation right now, about the boundaries or the intersection between product and UX. Enough so both, I witnessed this conversation and I have it come to myself personally when I speak, or when I'm out there connecting with people. So, I actually ended up setting up a community on Slack called Design in Product, just really to have a place to discuss that. And for some people that means kind of following this career path I've been on, of going from UX design or UX management roles to product management or product leadership roles. And other people deciding they don't want to do that, or they want to come back in the other direction. And a lot of negotiation over what is the shared common ground of those roles and where are their responsibilities and their points of view quite different. My roots go back to this information architecture tribe and people who have a point of view. And you and I have been friends for a long time, but I'm also essentially a student of your writing and your thinking and that of a number of other people who've really shaped my thoughts about information architecture. I don't know if other people call it this, but I sometimes call it like “third wave” information architecture, with the first being, of course, the initial… Spacing on the TED Talks fellow… Jorge: Wurman? Christian: Yeah, sorry. You know, that's literally an architect saying, “Hey, making maps is really important,” essentially. And that maps are going to be important information as well. And that they all sort of a share a semantic and kind of wayfinding and meaning-mapping kind of frame. And so, I think he kind of coined or crystallized the concept of initially. And the second way was sort of the world-wide-web-filtered application of information architecture, and just some often very tactical or pragmatic, but even then, with sort of this big-IA kind of dream of being the overarching backbone of things. And then what I think it was the third wave, is this sort of academically kind of sound and intellectually very rich notion of information architecture as still a way of mapping meaning and, and, and crafting spaces that are information, but I think less bound to some of the literal artifacts of the seventies or the nineties. And I don't want to do short shrift to other people who thought long and hard and debated these things. You kind of need to go to the books and read Andrew's books and yours and Andreas's and a number of other people to get caught up in that conversation. But I feel, again, that that conversation has a lot to say about product. And it's not just through UX. I mean, I think information architecture is a thing UX designers need to think about and be good at and use in their work. And UX then as a way of influencing the product management or product strategy and the product practices of companies. But I think IA is also a tool in the toolkit of the product manager herself. It's not just something that they should let designers mediate for them. I think they should be firsthand users. You know, architects of information — people who think about the way the information and the meaning and the knowledge and understanding and the positioning of people's bodies and of spaces made out of information are going to play out in the product that they're building. If you were redeveloping the waterfront and putting hotels up and walkways and places for cars to drive, you know, you're thinking about how are human beings going to flow into the space? What kind of experiences are they going to have? What is it going to do to the economy? What secondary effects are going to happen? You know? And that's an architecture, traditional built architecture. And I think that when you're making software, particularly the kind of social software that I've typically been involved with… It's a metaphor, but it's not simply a metaphor. It's literally the same thing. You're going to build an environment. People are going to flow into it. They're going to have experiences. There are going to be secondary effects that you didn't anticipate and systematic ecosystem effects. And you need to do information architecture or have someone who's a really good information architect at hand, I think to get a grip on that. Or you make it sort of like primitive, you know, “We're just going to put the waste affluent in the river kind of kind of building.” You know? Without thinking about the larger picture at all. Jorge: You talked about how information architecture could inform the folks who are managing and designing products and building them. Because I'm on the IA side of things, I'm interested in the converse, which is about learning about product and learning how those roles work and how the process works. And in the past year. I've read a couple of books on this subject, and I have a specific question that I'm, I'm teeing up with saying this one is the second edition of Marty Cagan's book Inspired and the other is Shape Up by Ryan Singer from the folks at Basecamp. And one thing that struck me in reading both of those is that… And by the way, I'm not claiming that the latter uses anywhere near like the same framing as the Inspired book. Christian: Right? Almost by definition it wouldn't. Jorge: But I just bring them up because I see them as examples of what I see as advocacy for a type of approach to the work that is very much bottom up in my perspective, in that you're working within a relatively small problem space and you iterate on that. And you may be doing that in parallel to a lot of colleagues who are working in other projects of similar scope. And the question that I had in reading both of those books was, “Where within this framework is there place for looking after the coherence between those things? Right? Like especially if they're part of some kind of ecosystem or family of products. Eventually those things need to cohere at some level. Christian: So, one thing about Marty Cagan is, anybody interested in product management should be familiar with Marty Cagan and should read his books and also follow him. He teaches, he's out there still influencing people. Silicon Valley-style product management is done in his image. It's done essentially in a framework that he established. It's also important to understand that he represents kind of a reforming notion of what product management should be from an earlier, slightly more, I'd say kind of enterprise, kind of static-MBA style product management. So, he represents the school of thought of, get outside of the building, and iterating on small things. Basically, in line with the lean and the agile trends that we all have probably been around and been part of it had been grappling with how do you do UX? How did you research? How did you plan? How do you think big or system systematically when things are being done often in these small incremental bits, as you asked? A big part of the product manager's role is actually connecting those levels of meaning, or those levels, those scales. There's this almost fractal-like scale of decision-making that goes on. And one great thing to know about product management as it differs maybe from UX and UX roles or your jobs, is that it's very much a decider role. You make decisions constantly. I don't like to stereotype people or professions or anything, but having been in them, maybe I'm a little bit more allowed to speak, you know, to tease ourselves. But what UX designers like to say, “it depends.” They don't want to get things wrong. They want to figure it out correctly. They want to apply the proper techniques. They want to take time and do things well. And I think that that's an important set of values and forces to have represented in the process. I think product managers or product management does not always value all of those things as much and believes that you get diminishing returns and that being decisive sometimes with less than complete information is sometimes more important than being 100% sure about what you're deciding. And that comes from having to make decisions all the time. If you make, if you make 15 decisions in a day, you can't fool yourself into thinking that they're all 100% right and perfect. You have to know that you're going to have an error rate, and hopefully you keep it manageable and you're good over time. Just to go back to this. Those decisions can sometimes be, “Is it okay to ship this next release with a bug, with this bug? We haven't fixed it, but you know, we really want to ship. Or is this bug a showstopper and we can't release it until this particular one is fixed? What we built, does it meet the requirements adequately enough to move forward or not?” You know, those sorts of decisions that are sort of tactical, but tied into important, larger overarching questions, up to the next level is sort of, “What should be in the next sprint? What's the next thing that we should work on?” And there you're at the level I think you were asking about, where things seem to happen very iteratively and without too much regard to the bigger picture, but just kind of down in a trench trying to polish a local maxima or run some tests or ship a feature or something like that. And those decisions also have to be made. Again, they can't be theoretical. Something's in the sprint or it's not, and either the last sprint went well, or it didn't, and stuff fell into this sprint from that. What I mean, you're dealing with a tangible reality all the time, and then the buck stops with that product manager. But those decisions again should be made with reference to, well, “What are our goals this quarter or in this time period? And why are we building this feature? And how many people will be affected by this bug? Is for those people, giving them a bad experience, an acceptable price to pay towards the larger goal?” So, there's a sense in which often the product manager is the person in the room who's supposed to be looking levels and levels above the current moment to figure out a decision. In some ways you'd say the UX person is doing that in a different sense: they're going out to like what people think or what we know from our users or they enlarge the question in a different way. But I think the product manager says, “Well, the company's strategy is this. And that's informed the product strategy, which I'm familiar with. Because either I'm the head of product and I own the roadmap or I'm on a well ordered product team and the head of product has communicated the roadmap and my portion of it to me well, and I have autonomy to execute my part of the roadmap.” So, there are actually these tools and mechanisms that that ladder up and down from like the very biggest picture of the company's dreams and yearly goals and quarterly goals down to what should we ship? Now, like any of these kind of project management or information management processes, like a roadmap or a sprint planning process where you're relying on a person to kind of make all those times connections, it is vulnerable to becoming kind of just a thing on autopilot, where it's just all happening, but nobody is really saying, are we on track? What's the meaning of all of this? Does this add up to anything? And I'm not some sort of spotless paragon myself. I've found myself sometimes leading a product team, doing lots of things well and correctly, and still taking a step back at a certain point and saying, we're off track. We've gone off track, and enough of these yellow flags have now… Or funny feelings in my tummy have added up to the point that, you know, if we continue like this, we're not actually achieving our goal. And they're none of my official signals yet say that we're off track, but the fact that I did step out of the day-to-day and look at a different timescale or a larger question that we were supposed to be answering has woken me up. And there's this danger sometimes of getting too attached to these techniques and processes, but at best they do help things stay in a line. And if you have a healthy team and you're reporting up and down the line, and there's somebody with authority who is watching the biggest goals, I think there already are methods that can work, you know? But you have to assess the kind of health of that on any product team, how well they do that. I know you're more interested in the product management side than the IA side, but you could say sometimes a lack of that… That no one's written down a map. Like we talked about it, we have our OKRs, blah, blah, blah. But no one's really done that IA work of saying, “And this is what it's going to look like,” or “This is the part where we're in, this part of the map now, and we're trying to get over here.” And helping to kind of do that communication to everybody so everybody can agree on what the mission is. I think maybe that's like a lymphatic system that's missing, so that you've got a circulatory system, but somehow, it's not a healthy creature, you know? Jorge: Yeah. As you were describing this up and down reporting structure and things like goals, it made me think of another book that I read last year,  Measure What Matters, by John Doerr, which is about OKRs. And one of the things that I got from that book was that there are mechanisms to scale OKRs up and down the organization. And my sense is that the goal there is to make sure that everyone is pointing in the same direction. And I guess the concern that I have is at a different level of granularity, and you called it out; the information architecture per se. My favorite example of the lack of such a thing is Kindle. I've been using Kindle for a while to read books, so I should be familiar with it. And I use Kindle in three very different device platforms. I have a dedicated Kindle reader, I have Kindle on my iOS devices, iPad and iPhone. And I also use Kindle on my Mac, and I find things like navigation structures to be different in all three Christian: Navigation within books or between books? Jorge: More so within books. I recently upgraded to a… I had a very old Kindle device and I recently upgraded to a newer one. And the operating system has changed a lot between the two versions… Christian: You're kind of… Okay, I'm going to sort of defend imaginary product people or UX people or tech leaders in companies like this. Some of this is a big company problem. You know, like big enough that you have teams that… The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, or they have their own agendas. So, in theory, they're all the same experience. And there should be someone saying, “Hey, we have a fundamental experience and you can express it differently, but we all agree it has to XYZ in common.” There are usually efforts to do that. And when I was doing the pattern library stuff, that was a version of that kind of thing. Nowadays, design systems are a version of that kind of thing, but often they're still about the interaction and not how it all fits together or how it works. But there are natural tensions. Teams are going to say, “Yeah, but that doesn't work for my device,” or, “But I have reasons for this,” or “It's always been this way on our sub platform. You bought us and now you're trying to make us be part of you.” It's non-trivial — especially in a larger organization — to just, you know… Everything's constantly shifting. It's a system. You could gradually maybe bring it into harmony, but I think you just have to have some tolerance, therefore. The consumer has every right to expect it to be perfect. But I, know, from being inside the sausage factory, how much that can almost never happen, especially in large organizations that have probably completely different orgs making those things, and maybe not enough cross team alignment. Every big organization I've ever been in is literally either in the process of becoming a little bit more decentralized or more centralized, or it's finished doing one of those things and it's about to start doing the other one. And they never find the perfect amount of decentralization and centralization for all these different overlapping things. So, you get matrix reporting. I have my boss, but I also have my practice leader. And then one day my practice leader is my main boss and I'm embedded in a team and we're a service bureau. And it's like, none of these models are right or wrong, but they produce software like that or experiences. And this has definitely been… And I'm sorry to rant like this, but this has been like a hobbyhorse for me for a long time, particularly when I started doing mobile and cloud type stuff, which was what I was calling holistic UX. Meaning that you don't do the UX of your Kindle on the Mac and you don't do your UX of your Kindle on the Kindle and your UX of the Kindle on the iOS, on the iPad or whatever. Kindle should have a UX, you know, and Kindle should have an information architecture that is one big map. And then everything should be some articulation of that or some expression of that. And yes, there will be compromises, but they should always be the sense that… But “should” is easy to say. When I was at AOL, I think, working for a fellow named Matte Scheinker, who taught me a lot about product, I remember telling him like, “There should be information architects, like that should still be a job.” I was having that old argument, like, should that even be a job title? And I'm like, “Yeah, there's some people they should just do it.” And he's like, “Well, how many? How many do you need? How many IAs does this company need?” And I was like, “Well, at least one.” You know, and maybe it needs to be the chief IA or the one person who just sits there near the CEO or the CPO or whatever and is just making that big map on some level and communicating it. Yeah, I feel like that's lacking. But again, that sounds utopian to me. Nobody understands that they need that in some sense, or it's hard to prove that having that is going to help some team meet its quarterly goals. Jorge: I think it's pretty clear that that's what's going on. And in fairness to the Kindle teams, the individual apps in the different platforms are coherent internally. It's this… I think you put your finger on it, it's the talking between them that seems to be not happening as much. Christian: But were you pointing out… Somebody online was recently pointing out that Kindle also gives you no way to organize your library. It's just a giant list of everything you either have downloaded or ever, unless you delete things, I guess. And there's no grouping, or if there is, it's hard to use. I'm not quite sure what the story is on that. Jorge: Yeah, I remember that tweet, and I think it was around the ability to do so in the Kindle devices themselves. And the reason I remember that is, I actually posted in reply to that that I could easily see how that could be the case, because — to your point earlier about the constraints in different form factors — there was a generation of Kindle devices that didn't have keyboards, and you had to type by moving a cursor around with a four-way pointer thing, which made it really awkward. Right? So, you did not want to be editing a lot of texts, so it made a lot of sense in those to not have it. And perhaps the newer ones, which have touchscreens, don't have it either because it's an artifact from that time? I don't know. Christian: I also think sometimes you get into the difference between power users and ordinary users. So, I've worked on software where we burned a lot of cycles at times thinking about how to make the switching between your two accounts' experience better, or the managing your multiple accounts. Until somebody looked at the data and saw that only 2% of the users have even the second account, let alone multiple. So, I hate to say it, but maybe the long tail of Kindle readers don't have more than one screenful of books or whatever, and investing in a great system for organizing your huge Kindle library just isn't going to satisfy big enough fraction of their user base. Jorge: Yeah, that makes sense. Folks have got to make choices, right? And at least my experience in working as a consultant with product organizations, there's always more to be done than there are resources and time to do it. Christian: I think that goes back to like, what are the incentives? And you say, of course, Amazon doesn't have an incentive to focus on that problem. They've got so many other, you know… Or Kindle, or whatever sub-team you're talking about. But somebody out there could be making it so that ordinary people have a lens they can put in front of anything they're consuming and organize it for themselves. And that may take different forms and it could be a plugin or an add on, or it could be another app you use instead, or it can… There's a number of different ways to give people bookmarklets or things that put a little more power in their hands. And I think this is a longer-term agenda that I've always been fascinated in, which is like, “Where's the Excel for data or for information or for lists, multi-dimensional lists and nodal, you know, nodally-connected things?” There's a lot of tools out there, but there's not sort of like this universal structure that people start to learn as a literacy thing. So, I feel like people are overwhelmed by their information as soon as it becomes more than one list, or have has to be managed dynamically, or anything like that. I actually would say, to be honest, I think something like Airtable is the closest I've seen, not to endorse a product specifically, but when I've used that, I've thought this is giving people who aren't database architects the ability to create structured data with relationships in a very copacetic way. And so, I'm hopeful about that. But you know, to just kind of go off a little bit more on a tangent, I've had this side project, hobby horse of mine that I returned to whenever I get some free time, which fits that model of sort of ideally being something that you could put in front of any other list or any other, you know, like a to-do list or a project list or something like that, which I call “One Job.” My shorthand for it is one job, like “you had one job.” But the log line of it, and you can see this'll date to when I first had the idea, originally, I would describe it to people as “Tinder for tasks.” You know, basically meaning that even… Personally, like I'll use Asana, I've used it as a project management tool in jobs, but I've used it for my own personal to dos kind of convenience. It's a nice kind of just sortable list, but with recurring things. But I still find psychologically that looking at any large group of things — and this could be the backlog for the product that I'm planning the next sprint for or the accumulated ideas that have piled up in my road mapping tool, or my personal list of just, you know, household tasks I want to do — that it's kind of anxiety-provoking to see anything you ever thought of and anything you might consider doing or, or might get to if you get to it. You know, if you do 10 things, do they, here's the 11th thing. Like, that's a lot to have on your screen in front of your face and trying to get your attention. And so, the original idea for this One Job thing was just that you have a stack. You know, essentially you can only see one thing and either that thing is the most important thing on your list, so just do it or, you know, swipe it away, put it to the bottom of the stack and look at the next thing. But eventually you should hit a thing where you're like, “Oh, I can call mom. I could do that now.” Or, “No, I don't feel like calling mom.” You know, whatever it is. And if you get all the way to the bottom of the list and you're back at the top, then you've got to start doing your psychological work. But more generally, I feel like, how can we be empowering end users rather than leaving it in the hands of the businesses to always give the information the exact way everybody wants it. You know, like, I think this has gone back and forth in the browser world. You know, in the early days it was like controlling your own layout and look, I want this type face, I want this backdrop. And eventually that kind of didn't work as it would break the magazine design of the website, you know? So that kind of fell by the wayside. But I think you get that more with people maybe wanting to have more control over their privacy or how their data is going to be used, and there's a market maybe to give people the tools that come between them and the mess kind of product and help them manage the relationship with it better. Jorge: Yeah, I agree. There is a gap in the market. You've already pointed to Airtable, that's one that immediately came to mind as a possibility. Another one is perhaps Tinderbox, which we've highlighted in a previous episode of the show. Christian: I've tried to use that, and I think for me… I have sort of like a law of personal information management systems or whatever, which is that you have to go all in. And no matter how good or bad the system is, they only work if you go all in. And if you partially commit, and continue to partially use other systems at the same time, then you don't get any of the relief that it's all in one place, and that you can stop worrying about it, and you'll have more and more and more systems to track and manage. Jorge: Another product that that came to mind, I don't know if you've had a chance to play with it, is Notion. Christian: Oh, you know, I've been reading about it a lot lately, and I've seen people promoting it, but I'm not quite familiar with how it works. Jorge: My sense is that — and I have not used it extensively, I've kind of played around with it — but from the videos and tutorials that I've read, it strikes me that it that Notion is to something like your notepad as Airtable is to Excel. Where in Airtable and Excel the primary information objects that you're dealing with are some kind of a table-based structure, Notion is much more freeform and more text-centric. But the principle seems to be fairly similar, where you enter information and allow the structure to emerge as you gather more of it and start tagging it on the fly. So, it's intriguing. I do think that there are gaps in the market for such tools. Christian: Yeah. I see it kind of plays into the wiki paradigm too. I used to use a personal wiki, and for a long time, that was another great, infinitely malleable, networked thing. But again, I think these things work if you just commit to using them there's an expression in 12-step programs that is, it works if you work it. You know, physically like if you go all in and embrace the system, you can make almost any system work for yourself. Jorge: That seems like a really good place on which to wrap our conversation. And I feel like we have much more to talk about, and perhaps we will at another occasion. But for now, Christian, where can folks follow up with you? Christian: Well, you can always check out my personal website, which is mediajunkie.com. And if you're near Richmond, Virginia in February, I'm doing a workshop there, but this may not be out by then. I've got a series of videos coming out with UIE, with Jared Spool's website, in their all-you-can-learn library on product management for UX designers. So, people who are coming from a UX design background and want to understand product management better, may want to consider making career in product management or kind of a hybrid product design career, might find some value in those videos. I hope they do. If you have a chance to make it to the IA Conference in New Orleans, which is in April, I'll be giving the closing plenary there. So, some of the things you and I have been talking about, and probably a couple of other things reflecting on social software, mental health, vulnerable populations, things like that, that relate to my recent work. I'll be talking about those things as well. And if you're in Australia, I'll be in Melbourne in late June, early July at a Web Directions Product, giving a keynote there. So that's probably a lot of ways to find me in the near future. Jorge: Well, fantastic. I'll be in New Orleans at the IA Conference, so I look forward to seeing you and hearing your presentation. Christian: Great. Can't wait to see it then. Jorge: Thank you for being on the show. Christian: You bet. Take care. Thanks for having me.

What does it mean to be "good"? Is it really possible to be on your best behavior all the time, full time? That's a load of personal performance expectation that in reality is impossible to live out. Have you ever tried to be a "good person" or better yet, a "good Christian"? You can frustrate yourself and your faith! God is good and you can be too. Discover how your Spirit Walk produces the goodness of God in you. Bible Passage: Galatians 5:16-26

Do I have to go to church to be a Christian? You will have to click to find the answer to that question. Join our panel as we discuss the Church, Services and what that all looks like. (we apologize for the background noise, we will have that fixed for next episode)

If you are a Christian this morning, you are an eagle. God intended you to soar through life on eagle’s wings. He did not intend for you to scratch around in the dirt with Prairie Chickens. That’s a metaphoric way of saying you have a choice as a Christian: You can see yourself as God sees you and choose to live the victorious life in Christ. Or you can focus your attention on the things of this world and live like the lost sinner even though you are a child of God.

  Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, is now the self-proclaimed Son of Hope.   Karen tries to get David to come to the studio, but he’s too shy. And imprisoned. We should have gotten the actor who portrays him on Mindhunter on Netflix. He's amazing!   Bonnie joins the rank of 22 year-old guys who live on Reddit by putting a Bible in the Historical Fiction category at a Barnes and Noble. And Karen admits to saving up her money one year to buy her husband a Zune for allll his music. Holds 50 songs!   We were thrilled to receive a letter from a listener saying they had been to the Young Life camp that used to be the Rajneesh compound in Oregon. Thanks for the letter. We love these insights.   Bonnie describes the 70s. Disco. Bell bottoms. Leisure suits. Not a lot of bras. Lots of rainbows on things before the gays appropriated them.   Karen gives the run-down of David Berkowitz’s crimes. He randomly shot people, mostly couples while they were in their car. It scared New York and the nation.   When Berkowitz was a kid, his birthmother gave him up for adoption. He was adopted and was a bad, bad kid. When he was caught after all the killings, people were upset at his last name and Jewish people were happy to find out he was adopted but then it was revealed his birthmother was also Jewish. Then Karen tells an old reverse racist Jewish joke.   Berkowitz might or might not have been involved in the occult. It depends if you ask, Bonnie or Karen. Karen goes by the story that he’d been getting into the idea of demons from the Kentucky church he got initially saved in. Then he parlayed this into a story once he was arrested.   Berkowitz got a lot of attention when he converted in the clink and was interviewed by Larry King and anyone else who wanted to nab a juicy subject but got Berkowitz's testimony instead. David even wrote a book! And you can find it somewhere online. He isn't supposed to make money off it, but it will definitely help build his ministry.     Berkowitz also has an organization. Ok, he doesn't, but his "friends" have made on for him. You can read his journals and see all the people who visit him. He has more of a reach from prison than most people on the outside.       If you were in prison, why wouldn't you want to become a Christian? You get forgiveness, a community, meaning, something to do away from other prisoners. Bonnie and Karen discuss how disproportionate Christian chaplains are to other religions in prison. Plus, Bonnie tells Prison Jesus, which is an actual psychological disorder.   We'll give it to Berkowitz, although we do feel he sincerely believes, he has carved out a pretty successful life since slaughtering 6 people.   Our sources were Wikipedia and Berkowitz's website. Books we recommend to listen to on Audible: Ricky Gervais' podcast and Born a Crime by Trevor Noah. Support us by getting a free book and 30-day trial when you sign up at www.audibletrial.com/Deconversion   Stitcher   Spotify   iTunes   iHeart  

Can you pretend to be a Christian? You might have heard about the driver who pretended to be a professor (and got away with it!), but can you pretend to be a Christian? You can read Acts 4:32-5:11 here and listen to this morning’s all-age recording at the link below.

-Sung Psalm- 149-----Why do I preach so much from the Old Testament- Because that's what the apostles' both practiced and commanded.-- --When the apostles set out to preach Christ and him crucified - they had to explain to Gentile hearers why a Jewish -Messiah- mattered to Gentiles- What does it mean to be a Christian-----You cannot make sense of Christian identity without understanding the story of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the story of Moses and the Exodus, the story of the Judges and the failure of Israel, the story of David and Solomon and the building of the temple, the story of the divided Kingdom and the failure of the kings, the story of the Exile and the restoration - the new Exodus under Zerubbabel, and the story of the rebuilding of Jerusalem - and the rebuilding of the people of God, under Ezra and Nehemiah.----The Gentiles who put their faith in Jesus were not just believing in something God did in their generation - they were believing in something God had been doing for thousands of years-----When you became a Christian you were grafted in to Israel - through baptism into Christ, you were joined to the family of Abraham -Gal 3-28- and became -heirs together with Israel, members of one body, sharers in the promise in Christ Jesus- -as Paul says in Eph. 3-6-----The weapons of our warfare are spiritual weapons - but they are weapons nonetheless- And so just as Nehemiah's laborers worked with the weapons beside them, even so must we.

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there on our real estate path. Today we discuss the difference between calling ourselves a professional and actually being a professional. reThink Real Estate Podcast Trannscription Audio length 28:02 RTRE 63 – Being a Pro vs. Saying You're a Pro [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris Lazarus here. Here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Nate you've got a bone to pick with some people. What's going on dude? [Nathan]: I mean call it a bone or not. But so I was just recently on a trip with some buddies of mine. And I was ranting. Or we were individually ranting I should say, about our industries that we respectively work in. And of course I got some puzzled looks and different things and, you know, about my rants. And ironically enough, one of the guys on the trip called me the day after we got back.  And he says “I have new respect for what you were talking about.” I said “What do you mean?” He says “Listen, you know, my…my aunt, you know, she…she passed away and…and one of my family members is selling her house. And the agent that my aunt hired said ”Listen I don't really want you telling anybody that somebody passed away in the home. Yada yada yada.”” The agent responded with “Trust me this is what I do for a living.” My friend then said “Please ask me how many houses has she sold.” I said “Well Larry how many houses as she sold?” He said zero. And he said “I totally get it.” He said this individual, you know, is making it appear I guess if you would, that they're an expert in our industry and, you know, what we do, but they've not sold a home. They have a license. Right. They're a realtor. Right. But they've done zero business. So again there…there is there's some delineation here between who's an agent who is a licensee. Right. And I get it. Just wound up. I mean I get it, you know, but I don't I also don't get it. I was taught “Fake it til you make it.” When I started. And I don't…I don't think that's the way to go. I think there's a lot of other paths to go through education and training and certain things, that I believe, you know, yourself and Christian both provide. But what would you two tell an agent in this situation? Right. [Chris]: Oh I wouldn't say…I would tell the agent “Look don't tell people this is what you do for a living until you actually make a living off of it.” [Nathan]: Christian? [Christian]: I mean my whole thing…because I was kind of taught same thing. Kind of “Fake it til you make it. Yo here's some scripts to make it sound like, you know, what you're talking about that you don't.” What I tell my new agents is like, you know, “Don't…don't come out and say “Hey I'm brand new. I don't know what I'm doing.” But positioning in such a way where you're saying “Hey, you know, I'm working closely with my designated broker. If I don't have the answer I can get it. You're getting two for the price of one. It's not just new agent flailing out there trying to pretend like they know what they're doing.”” So, you know, essentially don't lie but also don't come straight out say “Hey I don't know what I'm doing and I have no confidence. You know, I'm probably gonna [censored] up and [censored] over your listing, you know, I'm a seller.” But at the same time don't…you merely like you yeah you have all experienced in the world when you don't. because it's not hard to find out information about how experienced or how long an agent's been licensed. [Chris]: Doesn't even require an open records request. You can just look it on Zillow. [Christian]: Yeah I mean and…and…and that's it. And it may not be the case with every real estate firm. But for us, you know, we closely work with our new agents to make sure they're providing the best experience. They know what they're doing. They're not, you know, floundering, you know. And I know business brokerages are supposed to do that. [Chris]:Floundering. Like flopping around flopping around [laughter].  [Christian]: Yeah flopping around the land.  [Nathan]: Like a fish out of water is what it looks like. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: It's hard…it's hard for a new agent to mask that when, you know, you don't really know how the process works, and you don't really know the direction you're supposed to be going and what you're supposed to be saying to your client, you know. [Nathan]: Wouldn't this be an interesting industry change if you had to have some intern or externship with so many transactions under your belt before you were to able to go out and represent a buyer or seller? [Chris]: That makes sense. That's what we do for new agents. They have to have six transactions under their belt before the training wheels come off. At a minimum. And for the first six transactions they're heavily mentored through them. So they're…they're not alone. They have people like their first deals they've got a mentor that's going out. And…and working with them. Teaching them how to do the consults for the buyers. And for the listing consult. So that by the time that agent gets ready to go out and be on their own, they generally have a great idea of what they're doing. [Christian]: Yeah well that's a great way to do it. I mean I love how you formalize that. Obviously that takes, you know, a brokerage's,  you know, certain amount of experienced agents and size. And, you know… [Chris]: Yeah I'll let you know when we get at that level too. [laughter] [Christian]: It is a structure. Because you could say technically the industry requires it. but, you know, when the laws basically says, you know, “Additional designated broker oversight for the first two years” like that's really loose. And it's not, you know, it's not really…there's not really a standard for that. Even though technically new agents are supposed to be more heavily monitored. There's no…there's nothing in place a, you know, firm to firm, insuring that happens. [Chris]: Yeah I mean there…I was talking to somebody the other day he was telling me about a person who's making a switch from another firm. And this person was also a recruiter. And he was like “Yeah this person brought about a hundred and forty people over to the brokerage. And about a hundred and twenty of them left.” And I'm like “What?!” Like I don't even want to turn that number. Like I'll bring ten and one will leave. Like I'm not gonna turn a hundred and forty people to get twenty.  It's just ridiculous the lack of oversight that some of these brokerages put into actual retention and training and development. It's literally taking the pickle, throwing it at the wall and seeing which one sticks. [Christian]: Sure. Well I mean and it's well-known, and I've been saying this for years. You know, like most firms, you know, most of the industry is just focus on numbers. Like all we want is people in the seats. Licensed agents, you know. We're not really concerned about retention and training and empowering because there's gonna be, you know, a dozen new agents with, you know, dollar signs in their eyes waiting to take their spots. You know, when…when they fail. [Nathan]: It will be like “Oh let's look at our checklist. You have a license. Check. You have a pulse. Check. Oh yeah good. You can…you can join us.” And uh, you know, I often get the question “Hey what…what led to your success as an agent?” I don't want to call myself successful but I do well. And I know what I'm doing now. And I think a huge part of it and I will I will tap the shoulder if you would of the team lead, Tim Reel [phonetics], that I had at Keller Williams when I started, is…is that I…part of it… Let me rephrase this. I viewed it as an internship. Right. I knew I was gonna pay a steep cut on my team splits. And KW split. But I also knew I was gonna get an education. And I wasn't standing alone. I wasn't by myself. And I was constantly getting feedback or more importantly I was getting mentorship. I think that's what a lot of people want. And…and that helped me. And then when I did want to go out and do my own thing and kind of stand on my own feet as a solo agent, I had the capability to do that. So, you know, that's always been my win at KW. Don't…you're not a technology company. You're a training company. KW gave me some great bones. You gave me a great foundation. So any agent that is potentially listening to this, that's struggling or is thinking about coming an agent, I would tell “You…you want to do well? Go be on a team. Go…go learn.” I don't…I don't, you know, that's just me.  [Christian]: And I say you're pretty fortunate because, you know, I've heard, you know, I've heard many things as far as, you know, people kind of getting on team. I mean KW is kind of what they're known for. You know. But it's a…it could be very hit and miss. Because, you know… [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I mean you could be, you know, you can be fortunate where the team lead is actually interested in mentoring and training, in empowering their team members. But I've also seen people that, you know, get on teams and all this is a call center. And they were promised “Hey we're gonna train you. We're gonna teach you this stuff.” And they're not learning anything except for making sales calls and scripts. You know, it could be very…very hit and miss, as far as the team structure goes and the attitude of the leadership. [Nathan]: Same as I tell a potential client. Interview realtors. I tell a potential realtor and if you have a lot of teams. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Interview teams. Interview brokers. Interview office staff. Interview whoever you can. I mean… [Nathan]: Interview your clients. You don't necessarily want all your clients that come to you.  [Chris]: No stay away from my clients. You're another agent. I don't want you talking to them. [laughter] [Christian]: Yeah I am gonna interview your clients. [Chris]: So…but this is…this brings us back to like a great point. Right. Because you've got three types of agents. You've got the full time agents. Right. These are the people that are in here all the time. These are the people that this is how we make a living. Then you have the part-time agents which I don't have an issue with part-time agents. Part-time agents they're putting in the hours. They may not be in at 40, 60, 80 hours a week. But they're in it 10, 20, 30 hours a week. And that's enough so that they generally understand what's happening in the industry. And they're able to build and maintain a client base and, you know, do a few deals every year. Then you've got the problem. The last type of agent it's the sometime agent. The agent that hangs their license. They're just a licensee. They're not in it full-time. They've got another job and they'll sell a house whenever their family member comes to them and says “Hey, you know, you're a real estate agent right?” “Yeah. Yeah I am.” And they're really not. And they…they don't fully understand what's going on. And when they take a deal that's when things go sideways. So I think the clarification is what kind of agent do you want to be? If you're…if you're coming into the industry are you going to be a sometime agent? Or are you gonna be a part-time agent? Because if you're…if you're just dipping your toe in the water and this is new for you, you have to be a part-time agent. If you're anything less than that you're never gonna learn enough to be successful. You know what? You know what? We can just steal from the Game of Thrones on that. Because, you know what we say, to us sometimes agent…not today. [Christian]: Not today.  [Nathan]: Not today. [Christian]: What I was gonna say so…so that's as we jumped into this, you guys are like “Hey let' talk about this thing.” “I don't know what you're talking about.” So…so we talked about licensee versus an agent that's [crosstalk]. That's what you mean? [Nathan]: Yes. [Christian]: I got you. I think… [Nathan]: I think I've told the story once. I insulted a woman. She's…we were having a conversation. [Christian]: You insulted someone? No way. [Nathan]: Yes. And she said something like “Oh you're real estate agent?” And I said “Yeah.” And she said “Me too.” And I was like “Great. How many houses did you sell last year?” And she's like “Four.” And I was like “You're not an agent.” She got all upset. I was like…what…like…I don't know. [Christian]: You have a way with words Nathan.  [Nathan]: Like I mean it is what it is. I mean I…yeah that's right. But there needs to be so many changes in our industry. And, you know, again we can talk about the barrier and entry. Yeah. Yeah. I do want to talk about two things on this episode, I guess. If we want to just get going and keep going.  [Chris]: Well let's keep going. [Christian]: But before we get away can I say something? [Nathan]: Go. Get away.  [Christian]: Get away. So to your point Chris about the licensee versus an agent and the three types of agents, and it's interesting. It seems like there's so many new agents that get into it just to be a licensee. It's basically like “Hey I can make, you know, a lot of money just, you know, accidentally selling a house now and then, to…to a friends.” So they're not invested in learning or building a career. They're kind of testing the waters. And memorably they fail and realize, you know, usually it's too late. “Hey this actually cost me a lot of money and I'm not really willing to put in the time. And real estate doesn't work”. You know. [Chris]: It's…it's like people come in here and, you know, you can go and get a real estate license and you can go and sell your own home and you can buy your next home and you can earn a commission. Great. Yeah it offsets your down payment.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you factor in that you do that once every ten years and it's…it's really not worth your time.  [Christian]: Right. Well I like your distinction between basically, you know, the part-time, who is still again with the time they have, they're investing and learning. Versus the “I'm just sitting here with my license doing other stuff until something comes my way. And then I flattened my way through it.” And because I think it's a big difference. I think a lot of people in the industry inflate the two.  Like I was having a conversation the other day with, you know, some agents from another indie brokerage here in town. And I love that brokerage but they're very…very high standards on who they'll accept. Like if three times a week there or you're gone. You know, you have certain production what are you gone. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: I think that's great but that means… [Chris]: I wish more brokers did that. [Christian]: But that means that they don't do part-time agents. And, you know, this particular agent I was talking to, was basically cuckooing part-time agents. I was like listen “The people that can do it full-time like you you're basically taking it elitist stance, because people have kids or they have other jobs or, you know, it's just not the priority in life to spend 80 hours a week trying to make real estate work.” And I think there's room for that because just because you're part time doesn't necessarily mean you're inept. Or, you know, don't know how to do real estate. It just made you're focusing on other things. You know. [Chris]: Wait really? Because I thought whatever my preconceived notions were, we're correct. [Christian]: But I'm saying I think there's a difference. Because part time agents can invest in their training and knowledge and experience just as much as a full time. But that's a lot different than someone who just is seating on the sidelines waiting for real estate to come to them. [Chris]: As long as they're putting in the hours. And…and it's actually interesting that you bring that up. Because there was a study done by a university talking about entrepreneurship and going and creating your own self-employed income. And the success rates. And somebody who does it part-time at first, believe it or not has a thirty percent greater chance of success rate, long term. Than somebody who just dives in off the deep end full-time. So you can have somebody who's coming in part-time 20 hours a week and as long as they're working those 20 hours there's a greater chance of success that that person is going to be a long-term successful real estate agent. Then somebody who comes in off the bat, full time and has one way to go. [Christian]: What…it's interesting. Is that because they're runways longer because they have a supplemental income. Or something as opposed to… [Chris]: Yeah. The caveat with this is that those people are actually putting in the work. Right. They're working 20, 30 hours a week.  [Christian]: Sure. Right. They're not sitting around at their home office watching Netflix and occasionally making a call or something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Well I mean aren't there plenty of full-time agents who work a lot of part-time hours? [Christian]: That's true. That's a good distinction. They usually don't make it either. [laughter] [Nathan]: I mean I know plenty of full-time agent, who I mean it's like “[censored] if you're full-time than you suck.” [laughter] I mean it's because you look at their sales history. Like great you sold six houses last year. But you're full-time. And then there's the part-time agent who sells twenty five a year. Right. So… [Christian]: Again that comes down to your hustle and your focus. Because I've seen full-time agent that, you know, that are there full-time, but they're mentally…they're all over the place. [Nathan]: Yeah right. So I, you know, I don't like to get into this, you know, “O you're full-time, part-time.” Again sales cure is all, where I come from. And if you have a history you have a history. That's what I…that's what I like to look at is, you know, it's what matters. If somebody says “Well I'm a full-time agent.” Well great you'd be a full-time agent with [censored] sales. Right. I mean that's easy. And so I'd rather say Hey you're an agent with a great history.” That…to me is important. That's where we can delineate the that whole thing.  Is…let's not get into full-time, part-time. Yeah, the sometime, I don't want to get around. But let's just get into “Hey what did you…” I tell them “What did you sell?” Ask them what did they sell last year. What they do. Which may be and, you know, part of this I wanted to ask in this kind of segues into the other side of this, is does area specialization in a normal market, like where I'm at, in Columbus, does that matter anymore due to the amount of data that is available? My argument would be “No it doesn't matter.” [Chris]: I would argue you, against that.  [Nathan]: I figured you would. Yeah Christian too. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Nathan]: But that's just me. So… [Chris]: And I think it comes down to the level of service that somebody wants to bring. If…if you have like three agents going up against one neighborhood, and one agent knows everything about the neighborhood, all the history. Everything that has taken place there. Everything that's going in. All the development that…that's happening. Then that agent can sell not only the house but also the story.  And if you could sell the story, you know, that…that's the best way to market right now. Whereas if you have two other agents that don't know that info, then they're just…they're either competing on price or they're competing on marketing ability. [Nathan]: All right go back in there. There's an agent you left out of this. What about the agent that has the capability to use their commission as leverage on a deal? That's not in the area. [Christian]: I mean I think it… [Chris]: Where would he use that laverage? [Nathan]: Towards closing costs. Say…saying…because in our market you can do that. Right. Say…say I specialize in Dublin. Right. Ohio. But I want to go to…I got a client who want…your potential client who's interested in buying in New Albany, that yeah I've done deals over there. But I'm competing against a New Albany realtor. And…and I can offer…say Christian's my buyer. I can incentivize him to use me because I can say “Hey you're gonna buy $500,000 home. You know what I'll do? I'll take three thousand dollars on my commission and credit that to you towards closing cost and pre-paids and closing cost.” Now in a competitive market I'm gonna choose the agent that's got leeway to give me something. Or that could bridge appraisal, help with closing cost or something like that. Over somebody who says “Oh I specialize in an area.” That's just me and my train of thought. [Christian]: I mean the specializing in an area, I…I'd say the value really depends on which side you're on. Like…like when I'm on the listing side I think it like I specialize in West Seattle. But I do other areas of Seattle in the suburbs. Like I remember specifically like I helped a military friend of mine sell this place and well the suburbs here.  Now I didn't…I've never sold a house in that area. And so one of the questions I had to ask is like “Hey tell me about your neighborhood.” Like “There's a main…there's a main road going through here. Our house is on this side of it. A lot different than this side.” Because I can look at the numbers all day long but as the stats don't tell me, you know, why people move to this area. Or what the demographics are. Or who the ideal buyer is gonna be.  You know, so you've got to do a lot more digging and you actually know the area for that. And on the buyer side I don't think that's as important. I mean it can be. You can leverage it. but, you know, you're not really…I think it's more important on the seller side. Because you're gonna use that information, that knowledge of the neighborhood to target that ideal buyer.  [Chris]: And I think… [Christian]: What to focus on. [Chris]: Yeah and Nate to your point, I think you're you're kind of comparing apples to oranges right now. Because you're…you're talking about two completely different value propositions. That the agents can base on. And, you know, all of them work. Right. There's a million different value propositions on how you can build your business. Whether you specialize in historic or new construction or this one area or whatever it might be. Or you…you leverage some of your commission income to incentivize, you know, the client base.  You know, you can pay. It's one way or another. If you want to take some of your commission and do that on the back end through a rebate, you know, who am I to judge? All of them work. They're all different business models. And I don't call one discount versus one traditional. They're just different business models. It just depends on what's right for the individual agent. And what's right for the individual agent has to line up with the broker that they're with. Because not all brokers will allow their agents to do a commission rebate. Or to donate some towards closing costs. Whatever that might be. But it has to…like they all work. Like one agent may have a value proposition. And their proposition may be “I know everything about this area. Use me because I'm gonna make sure you're fully informed.” And then another agent may say “Well we're not as familiar with the area but we'll make sure that you have this financial instead of…” And then it's just up to the buyer. Right. The buyer may want money or they we may want their choice to be 100%. So it can go either way. [Christian]: And I'd say I mean you can't you can kind of think about in terms of like your commission is one of the terms of the contract. And so it's something that you could leverage just like you can any other terms, you know. That's something that you directly have control over versus, you know, the buyer. But, you know, options. [Nathan]: Right. Just curious. I mean you see it often. I mean…and I've done it. but, you know, we'll waive appraisal. And, you know, I will use my commission as a bridge in case that commits…that appraisal comes in short. And I've had plenty of times. It never has. We've been fine. I've had times where it comes in short and hey that's fine too. Again it's…it's as much for the seller when I represent a buyer to offer, you know, to say “Hey I'm willing to use my commission as a bridge in case it doesn't.” Because then they know they'll, you know, they'll get that money. So… [Chris]: I think that that's something to be careful about. So you're… you're very well versed in that Nate. But for your average agent, like if they're going into putting their livelihood on the line, like they got…they're gambling on themselves. [Nathan]: Yeah they are. [Chris]: And…and that's what you're doing. And you're good. And I would probably gamble on myself if I had to take the bet. [Nathan]: I like it. [Chris]: But I think that there's a lot of agents that for general advice…Don't do that well.  [Nathan]: Yes. You also…you got to remember I am fair. I keep 100% of my commission. Truly 100%. Right. So, you know, I don't have a split. So you got to think on a normal agents, say they're on a 60/40 split, you know, they're already taking a hit. Right. So they're potentially gonna take a bigger hit? Like, you know, they do have to be cautious. I…I have a little…I have a lot more leeway. Let's be honest. But… [Christian]: Sure. Not all the firms are going to support that. You know, so… [Nathan]: No they're not.  [Chris]: And you know as general…for our audience, as general advice I'm gonna say don't do that. Mainly because I don't know, you know, if I'm talking about the average agent, right. [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: They're not gonna be at that level to where, you know, I would feel comfortable just saying “Hey go out and put your commission on the line.” Because guess what? They do that. They say “I'll bridge the gap on an appraisal.” And the appraisal was four percent off instead of three. [Christian]: Well yeah… [Chris]: Now what's gonna happen? [Christian]: I mean you should always have…always have a cap, you know, as far as how far you'll go. You know, I mean I think in general, the principle I like. Because you're basically partnering with your clients, with skin the game. As opposed to you like “Hey, you know, here's all the terms. If it doesn't work out, well I'm fine. But you're gonna get [censored].”  [Nathan]: Well and my part in it is where I bridge part of the gap. My client will bridge part of the gap. But my commission will supersede their bridge. So but again what we're doing and like you said is, you know, kind of like in Top Gun. Right. You know, when you went fully inverted over the other plane and they're like this, you know. So that's the maneuver I pull. And I just haven't taken the picture yet. So…[laughter] [Chris]: International relations. [Nathan]: That's right. So anyway those are my two concerns or thoughts…would, over the last week. [Christian]: It's a creative way to do what you have to do, in a competitive market. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Chris]: Just make sure you run it by your broker. [Christian]: Always. [Chris]: And have your lawyers look at your language in your contract.  [Nathan]: Yeah you actually have to disclose that too, here. So… [Chris]: Yeah you do in Georgia also if you're doing that with the commission. The buyer has to pay tax on that too. [Nathan]: Really? [Chris]: Yeah. Otherwise you have to claim it. [Nathan]: Yeah that's true. [Chris]: Yeah. All right. Well I mean I think that was pretty good. So just recapping. If you're…if you're brand new in the industry, you know, you you're one of three people, you're a full-timer, a part-timer or some timer. Don't be a some timer. Because if you're a some timer, you're never gonna learn everything you need to know in order to be successful at this job.  And then, you know, figure out how you want to build your business. Right. You can…you could do a bit model like Nathan and use your commissioners leverage as long as you do it right. Or you can be the expert in your field. Know everything about everyone.  And everything that's going on in your neighborhood. And make sure that you're the source of information. Either way the business models work. Pick what's right for you. This has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next Monday. [Nathan]: Peace. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode This week we discuss how to keep a real estate transaction moving forward. Listen in to hear ways to keep a real estate transaction on track to closing. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 30:43 RTRE 57 –  Keeping the Real Estate Transaction Under Control [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you here this week. We've got Nate back. He is not selling homes right now. We've got Christian here and as always here to talk real estate and all thing real estate related. So just before getting started we were talking about how agents can control the transaction better and make deals go smoothly for our clients. Nate you are always taking listings. What are some things that you are doing to make sure that you are on top of the transaction? [Nathan]: Well again I was start thinking about this a little bit more before we got to recording here but I…again I think you as an individual…we all have different types of personalities but it also setting an expectation to our client. Right. Whether you are the list side or the buy side but you have to set that tone up front.  I am a little bit of a controller. Actually a lot but I like to control the situation. You have to have confidence and knowledge in what you're doing to do all that but that is the way I operate. Most of my clients appreciate that. And the reason I brought this us is because I have got a buddy I met the other day. He is a lender and another lender he knew was taking a beating because unfortunately buyers are liars and this buyers agent is calling and is literally in Ethany [phonetics] and all over the phone. And you know at a certain point you gotta tell a client you know whether you're the agent or you are the agent or the client and your client is the buyer or lister, you gotta have control over the certain things you can't do.  For that lender the agent was his client, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have taken that you know, it is just the way it goes. Same thing, I don't tolerate certain things from my clients. I mean we call it respect. You know a lot of people like to whine in our business but it is OK to lose a client. It is OK not to get every client. And I think we often forget that. It is kind of one of that win at all cost mentality maybe. I don't like that. [Chris]: And I think if you are winning at all cost you are not factoring in what makes this industry fun, it is being able to enjoy it. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: So obviously yeah I mean I feel like you are at the point in your career where yeah you can choose and have the option to fire your clients. But why was it…why do you think it got to that point in the transaction where the agent was calling and cursing at the lender? [Nathan]: Again, you know, I have said this before in our podcast. We want to be emotional. And I have always…I think the best thing I was ever taught when I got in this industry is to take my emotion out of it. [Chris]: Amen to that. [Nathan]: We realtors…You know I am gonna beat us up but as I have said the large majority we just love to feel so important, right? We love to know that “Hey look at me, hey look at me. I am an awesome, awesome relator. I am an awesome realtor”. Like… [Chris]: “Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about me. It is all about me. Really what do you think about me”.  [Nathan]: Yeah. And so take the emotion out of it. You know, I don't know. [Christian]: Why do you…why do you suppose…I mean I have my thoughts on this. Why do you suppose he thought it was acceptable and call the lender and cuss him out and get all emotional about it? [Nathan]: Well the guy is an [censored] [laughter]. If he were listening, that is what I would tell him. Right.  [Christian]: OK.  [Nathan]: Bottom line is whether we are in realty or not you don't treat other people that way. Like you know… [Christian]: Why… [Nathan]: Yeah why did he treat somebody that way? Probably because he had really bad parents I don't know. [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean… [Chris]: A lot of people don't think about other people as actual beings. Human. I think that si the problem. [Christian]: I mean and I am on that. Obviously treat people as humans. Treat them with respect. But you know when it comes to like being professional in this industry I mean there is a lot of things that I like to push back on in industry like you know our job is to be the rock when our clients are emotional and deals you know on the brink of falling apart. I mean if we get emotional I mean I don't know any of you…I mean I know you guys have kids. I know that when I am near my kid's emotions and he is getting all ramped up and I am ramped up, that doesn't help. [Chris]: That makes it worse. [Christian]: Worse. But I mean if I can be a consistent calm and I am able to bring it back down to like “OK let's look at the reality of things if you know…” But I think a lot of agents kind of lose their cool because they think “I am advocating for my client. I am passionate when I am doing my job”. No no you are just being a [censored] and you are [censored] things up for your client.  [Nathan]: Yeah well said. [Chris]: So that gets to a great point on helping to control the conversation to control the transaction. Is controlling emotion. [Christian]: Definitely. [Chris]: Because if we can control our emotion and understand that when we are interacting with a client it is a very…they are in a heightened state of emotion. Right. Buying a…Buying a real estate parcel, right a house or a commercial or whatever it is, is extremely stressful for people because they have a lot invested in it. It is a lot of money. It is a big transaction.  So if something bad happens they are gonna think it is the worst thing in the world even if it is just you know a small hiccup. If something miniscule like good happens they are gonna think it is the best thing in the world. So if we can just kind of maintain a level of neither good nor bad on the emotional scale than holy hell like that really can do exactly what it does for your kid Christian. It is just like calm. When something bad goes on don't worry. Got it under control.  [Nathan]: I…you know I wasn't here the last episode we recorded because I had a deal going sideways. Even my client's father flew in from Boston. He was… [Chris]: To help the deal or to ruin the deal.  [Nathan]: Well at first I thought was honestly he was gonna ruin it. He was very emotional. It was his son's house. It is you know a lot of things going sideways on this.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: And you know he called me “What are we gonna do?”. And now we're just [inaudible] we're great. We're good buddies now. But I said “We're gonna work the problem.” “What do you mean?” I said “We're gonna work the problem. Work the problem”. I mean we get…this is 3 days of craziness in my life here recently. And he called me and said “Man I gotta tell you kept your cool.” Yeah I did because me getting upset is exactly what Christian said. It is just gonna make everybody else upset.  .So I am..I am like the captain of the ship right. If I am freaking out everybody else is freaking out. I am you know…It was not fun. But we got through it. And now here is a gentleman that like he is my biggest advocate that I could possibly have now. But I think if I would have reacted the way he was initially reacting it was gonna be really, really bad 3 days for me. And it turned out an Ok 3 days, you know what I mean. [Chris]: Yeah you gotta control that. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: That is definitely one thing that agents can do in a transaction to kind of control the tone, control the pace. It is just control our own emotions because whether you want to believe it or not people are gonna mimic you. That is just how it happens. So obviously in the deal that you mentioned Nate the agent got upset with the lender. Obviously something at some point was not communicated clearly. Because if the lender had all the information and the agent had all the information and the buyer was given all the information than usually…I don't see a circumstance where somebody is gonna yell at somebody. Christian… [Christian]: It sounds like there is an unmet expectation there. I don't know. [Chris]: Yeah it sounds like it. So Christian when you are working with a buyer and you've got all these different wheels that are moving more so than with the seller, what are some things that you are doing to set expectation with people? [Christian]: Yeah I mean I say setting expectations specifically but communication in general that is probably the most important thing you can do as a real estate agent. [Chris]: I agree. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because you can be a terrible agent and totally incompetent but if you can communicate well you look like you're doing your job. You know now whether or not you do the back end and actually have knowledge and stuff that is all a different thing but you can be a rock star agent and know exactly what you're going but if your communication sucks your agent is gonna think you suck. [Chris]: It is like you're up on a show. You've got the curtain right and the clients are seeing what is in front not what is behind. [Christian]: right. And so that is a long answer to basically say I am mister kind of control freak I have got processes for everything. And part of the process is this template email as part of my CRM and first thing we do “Hey we are under contract. OK here is the 5 things you are gonna expect, here is what comes next, here is what we're gonna be doing for you in the next 3 days. Here is what you are gonna be doing”. You know. And after we get past our expectance commencing here is what it is gonna look like.  You know now that is not the only communication but that is like it sets the expectations up front you know because you get a contract and now there is a whole bunch of stuff going on and now they're stressing out. You know I can't be on the phone with them every 10 minutes you know and call them off the ledge. But if you set these expectations and say “This is what happens and this is what we're doing.” And you know checking in with them whenever there is a new bench mark. That has a calming effect you know on them as opposed to they don't hear anything. [Nathan]: Oh yeah you don't have to do a lot. I mean I send out Friday updates. That is what I call it. Friday updates. Every Friday I touch my clients no matter where we are. Just to give them something right. But I mean Christian you hit…all your points were spot on. Maybe you should just have the Christian Harris school of mentoring real estate agents [laughter]. All people can learn from that. [Chris]: Definitely. [Nathan]: You know communication is key. So…I am with you on that one. I am seeing great agents who know everything very well but they are horrible communicators. [Christian]: And to your point Nathan I mean, part of that communication is even if nothing is going on once a week touching in. I do my touching on Monday because typically like if you are working on a listing that is when it is going to be the most information that we can pass. So I do my updates on Mondays. The point is going on “Hey there is nothing going on and I just want you to know so that you are not wondering what is going on”.   [Chris]: Yeah for both of you to reach out and tell somebody nothing has changed, is one of the key differentiators that I have seen for people who are successful  and who are not. Because if you are having that communication level when nothing is happening they know “Oh OK nothing is happening but I am not hearing silence”. Because it is when the seller or the buyer, they hear silence that is when they get in their own head. And they start thinking “Well is this agent really doing things in my best interest. Are they really working on my behalf”. [Christian]: You have to interfere with the doubt and the emotions kind of you know. [Chris]: It comes in the silence. Exactly. Awesome so we're getting about halfway through the episode right now. I want to…we are trying out a new segment called re:Think Realty bonus thoughts where we have a topic to discuss that none of us have seen before. We're just pulling it out of an envelope. So this one is “Things seen in houses.” I am really not sure. I guess we're just supposed to talk about things that we have seen in houses. Things like “Where is Waldo”. Print frames. Eye level in the bathroom. Things like that. Blurred out dog face on a listing photo. [Christian]: So like funny or unique things that we have seen? Is that like… [Chris]: Yeah what are some unique things that you have seen in homes that you have listed? [Christian]: I have seen atrocious staging and unfortunately it was one of my first listings when I was trying out a stager so… [Chris]: Was it really? [Christian]: I had to fire that stager and the stager I use now was the person that came in like 2 days noticed and saved the day. But yeah I have seen that. I have noticed that you want to make sure you have a local stager. Here in Seattle we've got a couple of…Well we've got a lot of island like 107 islands. And one of the…I had a friend who had a mom who does staging so I gave her a hot but she was from one of the islands and she came over and did it and her idea of staging was weaker in floral prints. And it made it look like a grandma's house and it was not gonna fly in Seattle. [Chris]: Wow. [Christian]: That is unfortunately that was kind of my fault but that was something I have seen that was atrocious and made sure it didn't get to the listing photos and that was a learning experience. [crosstalk]. I am sorry? [Chris]: What do you got Nate? What is something you have seen in a house? [Nathan]: Guns. [laughter] [Christian]: Alright. [Nathan]: No, yeah I mean like literally guns just laying out around the house. [Chris]: Oh yeah I have seen that. [Nathan]: Like hand guns and rifles. And magazines in the club. I love guns don't get me wrong but I have got clients who have a kid with me and I am like “Holy snap” like you know what's going on. Like… [Christian]: That is a different world in Ohio I guess. [Chris]: It is not just Ohio we've got that in Georgia too. I have walked through homes and opened up a closet and boom there is a shotgun just sitting right there.  [Nathan]: That is…the oddest…[crosstalk] [Chris]: Yeah so one of the oddest things that I have ever seen in a home is in a basement they…put in multiple urinals in a restroom.  [Christian]: Like a restroom? [Chris]: Like a bathroom but then they…When they finished the basement they made it like a big bathroom with like 3 urinals but no divider. Really, really weird I have no idea why. [Christian]: Were they having like a fight club in the basement?  [Chris]: Yeah yeah it was really weird. I ended up not getting that listing. Because I don't think he liked what I said about marketing that. [Nathan]: Have you guys ever been in a home where they have pad locks on all the doors on the exterior like on a bedroom? [Chris]: I have seen that one. [Christian]: That is creepy as hell.  [Nathan]: I saw that a few weeks ago and I was like “That is really weird”.  [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: I wouldn't want to know what they do. [Chris]: You are either doing some child abuse there or you just got a lot of guns in that room. [Christian]: It's sketchy. [Chris]: Whatever it is. Yeah it is in the living room [laughter]. “You are not getting into my living room. This is mine”. It could be like one of those…Did you all see the listing that it was making the rounds on a few weeks ago, the sex dungeon in the basement? [Nathan]: Awesome. [Chris]: Yeah I mean just things like that.  [Christian]: Yeah like the brokerage had some pretty fun stuff, the lighter side of real estate had some pretty funny things like that.  [Chris]: Yeah definitely the things that they come up with that is absolute hilarity. I can't believe that you know when Kellen [phonetics] when he did his deal to our show got picked up by lighter Real Estate. It was… [Christian]: That was awesome. [Chris]: It was in one of the shows. OK so yeah re:Think Real Estate bonus thoughts. Giving it a shot. Tell us what you think. Make sure you leave us a review on iTunes for anybody listening. I…shoot us a comment either on our Facebook page or on the website on rtrepodcast.com.  So back to today's topic which was the agent's control of the transaction. Where they can make a big impact. Nate what is one of the most impactful things that you find you are able to do for your clients outside of communication and setting expectations? [Nathan]: I don't know. This…I mean it sounds weird but just being upfront and honest. I feel like…I feel like there are so many agents that just are not forthcoming. Do you know what I mean? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Again it is the win at all cost or lie at all cost just to get the listing. I mean I just went on a listing in an apartment a couple of weeks ago and she walked me up in the room and she said “Nate what do you think about this room”. I started to laugh and she said “What is funny?” And I said “This is a [censored] ugly room”.  And that is all [laughter] I said all these things in here and in the bathroom too and she starts laughing and I say “What is so funny Jane?” And she says “I have had 3 other agents in here and none of them have had the balls to tell me what I already knew.” [laughter]. She said “I love that you already told me that it is ugly”. She said “I know it is ugly but everybody else says this is gorgeous, this is lovely, we will do this to make it look like this”. She is like “It is an ugly room. Why won't somebody just tell me the truth?” And I told her the truth and guess who got the listing?  [Chris]: There you go. There you go. [Nathan]: Tell the truth. If they don't like the truth than they will hire somebody else that will tell them whatever lie they want to hear. [Chris]: And if you feel like you're not up to telling somebody “This is a [censored] ugly room”. You don't have to say it like that.  [Christian]: You can be more diplomatic to be honest. [Chris]: Yeah be more diplomatic. [Christian]: That is not Nate's style. [Nathan]: That is not my style lets be honest. [Chris]: Just so that our audience knows. You don't have to do it Nate's way. You can tell somebody “No this room may not be up to the aesthetics as the rest of the house. We probably won't focus our marketing efforts on this room”. [Christian]: Or “You can burn this room down”. Or something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. Or “We could put up some fumigation label outside so nobody comes in”. Whatever it may be, but yeah on that line with honestly I think one thing agents have sometimes gotten self-caught up in is when they find something that they don't know they will try and [censored] their way out of it. Instead of saying “I don't know, let me get you the answer. We will make sure that we do this the right way”.  And people feel like you know winning at all cost they want to feel like the expert they always want to be in the expert shoes, they don't want to step back and admit you know, “There might be something I don't know here”. You know that is kind of one thing that I think goes a long way in controlling the transaction is don't be afraid to admit where there is something that you haven't dealt with. That is why it is important to have a good team unless you are Nate. In which case you are solo.  But if you've got a good team or resources or you know even friends and people that you respect in the industry and people that you can reach out to as long as they're you know you are following your broker's direction, you are making sure that everything is legal and ethical. I don't think we have to cover that at this stage in the game.  But yeah just making sure that where your shortcoming are you are not [censored] through them. Christian what do you think are some things that you now can help control the situation a little bit more throughout the transaction especially due diligence, getting into financing and getting up to the posing table? [Christian]: Sure so I mean there is obviously like a minimum standard of what an agent has to do. I am more like how much can I do to help an agent. You know. So for us you know I mean like we all know that is…you know good buyers. You know it is the buyers responsibility as part of their…you know once they get a contract and they're talking to a lender and get all the documents they need and stuff. They need to reach to interns company and get a policy in place and that kind of stuff.  But like that is not really on our shoulders but I still make it a point to you know a day or 2 after to send out an email and say “Hey this is a reminder, these is the things that you need to do. Make sure you get your lenders documents at town manor, make sure you get a quote on home insurance because they can't hold an appraisal before you do”. You know just stuff that is not necessarily in my ball part but it helps them know that, like “These are things that you need to do as part of the process”.  [Chris]: Yeah and going an extra mile is huge. We've got a lot of good feedback ever since we started implementing move easy, which ties into our transaction management system. So move easy when our agents mark that their client is under contract they get this digital check list and resource bank that tells them everything that they need to do during the move from “Don't forget to order your moving supplies, don't forget to line up your child care, you're getting all your pet immunizations” whatever it might be. We put all of it in a checklist and our agents…our clients seem to love it. For those that take advantage of it. [Christian]: And that as I recall it is free for agents right? [Chris]: Well it has to be set up on a brokerage level but yes it is free. [Christian]: So talk to your broker about setting it up for you. Or if you do something like client giant you know per agent they do kind of that concierge. They take care of all your utilities and that is helpful too. [Chris]: That's awesome yeah. And that was Jay O'Brien [phonetics] we had him on last year. Definitely a great episode to go and listen to about providing what was it 7 start service in a 3 start industry? [Christian]: Yes. 5 start service and 3 star…7 start... [Nathan]: 7 star… [Chris]: 7 star in a 3 star. [Christian]: It's a good… [Chris]: Yeah it's a good one. He's a really good person to listen to as well.  [Christian]: Yeah for the service yeah.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean there is so many things that we can do to go above and beyond. You know in Georgia the typical transaction is byer gets contract. Contract gets due diligence. Due diligence gets home inspection. After home inspection there is no other inspection done. They may be right on. I have never seen anybody do a lot of base paint test. They just kind of waive that and you know that is it.  But there is so many other things that we can do. We can advise for air quality testing if there are allergies present which that I have seen happen. Partnering them with an insurance agent to make sure that the home is insurable and check for what the previous claims are. Like getting a clue report pulled. All of these things are huge and can make a big impact in not only your client experience but also controlling the situation, making sure that things are discovered before we get too far. So that at the last minute when we get to the closing table things are reared in their ugly head.  [Christian]: So speaking of kind of above and beyond just us doing our jobs for our clients, I mean what are you guys thoughts about health warranties? Typically I have written those off because they are so limited typically. As far as what they replace in the time frame. But like recently I helped a friend of mine buy a house kind of outside of my normal area a little farther outside in Takoma. And the recommended inspector from some of my you know, agent friends down there, they actually include a very inclusive home warranty that I was very impressed with.  And no extra charge you know like because they already did the inspection on the roof so they guarantee the roof is gonna hold for 5 years and appliances for this long and you know all these extra stuff that seems like a real value add for no additional money either to your pocket or out of their pocket. But what are you guys thoughts on hat? [Nathan]: I mean here in Ohio it is long. A seller typically pays for home warranty. I like them but I like to choose it because there are certain home warranties that have what they are called caps or limitations on what they will cover. And if you know those I don't think that is a good value. The ones that I typically go with on home warranty has no caps. The other side of it form a listing side is they have seller protection from the moment we put that house on the market, the items are covered in warranty. But I think you have to articulate to your client that a home warranty is good for your major stuff. [Chris]: Yeah sure. [Nathan]: Your HVAC furnace. [Chris]: Sometimes. [Nathan]: Yeah well OK again here they're smart like don't go and have a home warranty claim when you had an inspection that said it was bad right. That is not the way to do it so… [Chris]: And on top of that if you have a 25 year old HVAC system it is not gonna pay for a brand new system if it [censored] out. It will have a maximum amount that it will pay towards but on a 25 year old system it is gonna not cover that switch over from you know what was it our 20 to now 4 10A or whatever the new coolant is. So you got explain that to your clients.  Again back to what Nate was saying. Expectation setting. Back to what Christian was saying. Expectation setting. Making sure that everybody understands where the value is when they get it. [Christian]: So what you're saying is that home warranty can be of value just make sure you do your research that is actually a quality home warranty that provides something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: 100%. [Chris]: On the first home that my wife and I ever purchased, 3 months in the stove shorted out. It came out 50 dollar call, rewired the entire thing and it worked fine. It is still in that home. But that was a lot less than it would have been you know to have you know a new stove or bring out an electrician so it has its values. [Nathan]: Yeah yeah, I just had to call a client and we were 2 days outside of closing an she was the seller and the hot water tank failed. We had seller protection on it. Guess what 65 dollar call, brand new hot water tank. [Chris]: There you go. [Christian]: Save your 500 dollars. [Nathan]: Saved probably more than that and you know she was already stressed out and called the client. I said “Let's have home warranty take care of that”. Again if you know what you're getting can be a great value. But… [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: There are a lot of junk ones. [Chris]: And all of this…yeah all of this goes in line with taking control of the transaction and making sure that we are directing it in a way to get it to the closing table and we are directing it in a way that is in our client's best interest.  [Christian]: Yeah and speaking of staying in control of that transaction one of the things that I see…I moved to a whole other topic on this whole episode, but is that you know what do you do to continue to provide value and stay in front of your clients after closed? Or what the agent is gonna feel at that? [Nathan]: That is a whole episode.  [Chris]: Yeah that is a whole episode. Why don't we get into that next week [laughter]?  [Christian]: OK well I will give a little teaser than. [Chris]: Let's give a teaser and we will get into it next week.  [Christian]: What we started to do is a sort of called home button and that has been great because it is cheap. Right now it is only 25 dollars. You know, to use it and you get it for 500 clients. But basically it provides every month to your home buyer, it provides them with an automated like “Here is what your home is worth and if you refine,  this is what it would look like, if you are AIRBNBed one of your rooms this is the value if you added 300 dollars a month extra payment you know you would pay this much less over the course of yadayada”. So basically provides all these really easy to understand analytics for a client's house that is branded to you.  [Chris]: Awesome.  [Christian]: And instead of you know you sending out some junk email drip thing every month where they probably don't even look at, here is something that directly relates to their house that they're probably gonna look at it. And you can see all the analytics and back end when they're click on it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning into re:Think Real Estate. Make sure you join us next week as we talk about how to provide value post-closing and control that relationship into the future. Christian you gave a great teaser on that. For anybody who hasn't please go to rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for the newsletter so you never miss when we drop an episode and leave us a 5-star review on iTunes. Have a great day everyone.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode In today's episode Chris and Christian briefly discuss their thoughts on home automation and smart technology. Let us know what smart technology you prefer in the comments! Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 13:51 RTRE 56 –  Where's Tech Going? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris. My man Nate is again out selling homes so he can't be with us here today. But we do want to make sure you're here with us getting the re:Think Real Estate treatment every Monday. So thanks for tuning in. Christian what is going on my man? [Christian]: Hi, I was just thinking about the future of the business and stuff and things and… [Chris]: Yeah what do you think… [Christian]: Things I am not doing because… [Chris]: What do you think it will be like in the future? Take a wild guess. [Christian]: Well I mean I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, positioning that kind of stuff. [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: You know about 10 years ago podcasting was the new rage. You know it seems like real estate is finally as an industry is catching on to maybe podcasting as a viable medium. We have… [Chris]: Viable I don't know. It is a medium.  [Christian]: Viable like I mean the interwebs [phonetics]. It is not going anywhere. It might be here to stay. [Chris]: Yeah it is here to stay. [Christian]: Yeah you know I have been doing my own podcast for almost 3 years now and I felt like when I started that I was kind of like behind the curb. But I was just kind of thinking you know kind of the newer trends, and I think that there is a big…there is gonna a big push maybe or you know the masses are gonna start adopting kind of the smart homes stuff as opposed to just…I think previously it has been just kind of the more tech savvy people coming out of the fringes.  But I think with Alexa and Echos and Google homes and stuff become more popular as I think that audio content is gonna start becoming you know audio first content is gonna start becoming huge you know. I mean video is just so great but the problem with videos is you've gotta be dedicated to watching that video. And it is the only thing you can do. While audio podcasts are all flash briefing all that stuff that you can be doing something else. You could be driving a car or in your home you can be working. So I think it can be more…as our attention it continues to be demanded in multiple directions so it is gonna be more of a push in adoption for audio first stuff. [Chris]: Like audiobooks right?  [Christian]: What is that? [Chris]: It is like audio books. You just…The way our cars work now with the Bluetooth the moment you get out of the car it pauses, when you get back into the car it keeps going. You know, and you can be driving down the road of in your office and it just the continuity it stops and goes and keeps going and you are able to just load more content while you are doing other thing.  [Christian]: Yeap, exactly you know I was thinking about how this relate to real estate. You know how with the help of an agent or brokerage. And I think it is you know it could be another piece of the content marketing, positioning piece. You know, for me I have been thinking like OK you know I want to start like an Alexa flash briefing, right.  You know those are basically mini 1 to 2 minute…think of them as mini podcast and so you know if you have Alexa at home or Echo you could say…you could enable these skills and say you know, “Alexa play…play my flash briefings for the day”. And what would be a set up 1 minute Gary V sample and then you know social marketing with Chelsey Pites [phonetics] you know or whoever you subscribe to it will give you the little 1 minute blur you know. And the thing that is different about them is that you can't go back. It is kind of like it is today and that is it.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So it is very try and forget but I am thinking like if this starts becoming the norm, the thing, you know if people start going to their Alexa for “Hey Alexa what is the weather, what is the traffic, what is the housing market doing?”. You know like there is gonna be more and more skills built out you know by brokerages, by industry leaders, by marketers you know, all that kind of stuff.  So how can you get in front of that? Because right now there is not very much in the real estate space. You know the couple I know about gear towards the real estate agents, geared towards the industry not towards consumers. So what would that look like? You know. [Chris]: So I am not too familiar with like Alexa and Google Home. And all that because frankly I don't want anybody listening to me and I don't need more tech for my kids to interact with right now. [Christian]: But they are already listening. [Chris]: I know I know. [Christian]: Here. Everything [laughter]. [Chris]: Yeah well so probably. But…so we haven't gone on board with the smart home yet. Our home is dump. It was built in the 70s. It is as dump as dump can be. But I did see an article the other day about some technology that is gonna become an outleap next year. OK so mid to late 2020 and we have a ton of cool things on the horizon.  So, Apple is gonna come out with their glasses. And I saw a report on this. And the things are super lightweight and I can just imagine right in 5 or 10 years you are driving down the street or you are in a showing, and you've got your real estate app on your phone and as you walk through the house it is giving you all the details about every room. It is giving you all the updates. You are driving down the street and there is a house for sale and just in your glasses, on your display it is telling you all the price, the bath and bed features, you know.  That is gonna be the world that we live in in a few years. It's…we're not far away from it and you know technology is exponentially increasing. That is not slowing down anytime soon. So like it's gonna be crazy where this all goes. I don't know about Alexa and all that. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you're probably right, pretty soon I am sure I will probably have one too.  [Christian]: Yeah well possibly I mean you know, it is hard to tell where the trend is gonna go. Because you know, Google has their glass and that was a major flop. Now maybe it was just ahead of it's time and people weren't ready for it. Maybe it is a platform issue you know, whatever, but yeah we will see. I mean I am definitely seeing the audio…audio first medium catching traction with masses. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: It is not nearly as rare as the people have you know Google Home or an Echo. [Chris]: Well if you are listening to this episode, tell your friends to listen to this too because podcasts are cool y'all. [Christian]: Yeah and so initially…so my journey into the smart homes started with the Google Home. Right. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because I think its…we bought a new house and we bought a Nest. And when I bought it had like a have and for 20 bucks you could get to buy a Google Home. You know medium or whatever I am not sure.  [Chris]: Yeah why not. [Christian]: And I was thinking “Hey you know Google versus Amazon of course the Google one is gonna be able to do way more”. But it doesn't. Like it's kind of weak. So…But you know as I experimented with the Alexa app which you can actually download for your phone and essentially you know use the same…the exact same commands and just integrate with your house, I started enabling skills and messing around with that.  And I am like “OK well this is cool”. And so I bought one of the nicer Echos because it has a better speaker because I didn't realize…well the big thing is it is able to like “Hey play jazz music or … you know whatever and it will start playing you know a Spotify channel or you know if it is Google it will play Google play or you know an Echo it will play your Amazon music.  And so you essentially have you know these diverse play list at your fingertips and so I wanted a decent sounding stereo and like the Sonos are actually integrated with the…with the Alexa platform.  [Chris]: The Sonos speaker? [Christian]: Yes. So there are some cool options out there but like that's what we use it for a lot but once you start getting like smart plugs and a Nest of [inaudible] stuff you can set up essentially you know, I don't know, work flows or what do they call it. Something different on the platform. But to say you know, “Alexa good morning and do you have a turn on your lights and start a soft jazz music and turn your heat up” or you know whatever you program it to do. You know. Now we could just make the argument “Hey we are getting lazy”.  But I think the future is going in that direction where I think the people are having to pull out their phones or their watches and like touch the screen is gonna become antiquated and too much of a pain. And they much really just be able to say “Hey do this thing” and have an app launch or have a series of functions happen. So for… [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: So for real estate I think there is some huge, huge… [Chris]: And it is kind of cool. Like “Amazon prepare my house for a showing” and then everything kicks on.. the oil diffuser starts making it smell like cookies. The lighting dims, the music is playing. Like that would be a pretty cool Alexa app. [Christian]: Well yeah I mean and that is if you have a smart phone. It is easy I mean. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Set the workflow for this trigger starts playing this music station and let them. I think for real estate you know my point in this is I think it is starting to get beyond novelty to practical and mainstream. And I think the real estates… [Chris]: And it is inexpensive enough to do that now. [Christian]: Right exactly I mean there are nicer…I think the…I think the Echo starts at 40 bucks and the one I have has a decent speaker and it is like 110. You know like you spend hundreds on the Sonos but you know if you want a rocking audio system but…I think for real estate there is opportunities for things like flash briefings and different things that would put you as a leader in technology in providing value and giving up to the community.  You know it is just…And you could repurpose it from a Facebook live or Instagram live. Cut out the audio and there is your daily or weekly briefing or whatever, you know. So there is definitely ways to leverage content you are already creating for these new platforms to continue building your brand.  [Chris]: Sounds good. I will have to get on that Alexa new wagon. I am not there yet. We'll give it time. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I mean the only thing…[crosstalk]. Unfortunately you know my crystal ball is broken. [Christian]: Yeah is that why you are not rich?  [Chris]: Yeah it is one of those things you know where most predictions never come true but now it is like we are watching this app and… [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: There is definitely something that happens over the next few years. And… [Christian]: Well right and I think the biggest challenge right now with where technology is, is lack of integration. Because you know Google has a proprietor thing. Amazon has theirs you know… [Chris]: They are gonna talk to each other. [Christian]: You know they're different IOT…internet…internet of things. You know I don't think there is a standard protocol so you will have to get stuff that is compatible otherwise you have 2 or  different systems that are smart separately but they don't integrate. Well that is more of a pain than it is worthy. You know. [Chris]: Yeah or you find some manufacturer that makes 2 versions. One that integrates with Alexa and one that integrates with Google. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: Pain in the butt. Well I mean it all makes sense. It is gonna be interesting to where this all goes. But I will be interested to see in a few years if you are not right, and that audio and flash briefings become a more important thing in real estate.  [Christian]: Well I am interested to hear what our listeners think. You know leave comment as in  the future how they are using this kind of leading edge technology whether that is audio or you know VR or AR you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Send us a message. Contact us. Hit the form on the website rtrepodcast.com. Christian if you are right on this than maybe in the near future we need to step in some flash briefings together for the re:Think podcast.  [Christian]: Sounds good and you owe me a drink. [Chris]: Argh always. Get yourself over to Georgia and trust me drinks are on the house.  [Christian]: Alright. [Chris]: Alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

On this weeks episode of reThink Real Estate, we discuss ways to clear your mind and focus on your business. There are hundreds of headlines vying for our attention which serve as little more than a distraction to our businesses. We discuss our thoughts on what to pay attention to and what to ignore so that our businesses don't suffer. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 14:41 RTRE 55 –  Pay Attention to What Matters in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris here with Christian. Nate can't join us today. He is too busy selling homes. What is going on Christian? [Christian]: Not much just running into the office after frantically dropping off my son at school and yeah trying to stay cool. What are we gonna talk about today? [Chris]: What is going on in real estate. There is some headlines out on Inman. Open Door picks up another 300 million dollars at a reported 3.8 billion dollar evaluation. Caldwell [phonetics] does some rebranding and agents how to become influencers.  [Christian]: Yeah I was really enjoying the comment section of the Caldwell [phonetics] branding. That is always gold you know seeing what people decide to what hill they decide to dive on [inaudible] [laughter] with rebranding and the broker decided to… [Chris]: Well brokerage that are not at and even agents…Everybody has an opinion and everybody wants to voice their opinion in trivial [censored]. I mean remember with NAR. NAR changed the logo last year. And it threw up such a sting that they changed it back.  [Christian]: Did they change it back? I didn't notice. [Chris]: Oh yeah yeah they…So… [Christian]: 100.000 down the drain. [Chris]: So they did a boxed R. The cube with the R on it. And then it threw such a sting that they got rid of it. They spend like 300 million dollars for some astronomical…  [Christian]: It was like 300.000. [Chris]: Yeah it was a lot of money. [Christian]: That's a lot of money for yeah, changing one R into a different type of R so… [Chris]: Yeah and then everybody hated it so… [Christian]: People do. It's funny as we're kind of going over the headlines of what is happening. What is getting all the buzz in real estate. You brought up a good point that all this stuff probably has nothing to do with my business or your business or any agents actually doing business. It's all distractions and shiny objects.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean for a…it gives people an excuse to not focus on doing what they need to do which is sell real estate. Or train their agents to sell real estate if you're a broker. You know it's like watching the local news right? It takes up a lot of time, but what is the same news every single day? Somebody died, somebody got robbed, something broke in the city and somebody is doing something crazy for consumers.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: That is the same news every single day and people spend hours of their day, in the morning and the evening paying attention to that [censored]. [Christian]: Right. Well it is funny too I mean you know kind of running with that example. Because what we're talking about here is information, right? We're talking about our awareness of our world around us or what we considered the world around us. It is interesting if you do a little like kind of historic reading of like how technology changes, how we interact with each other and with technology you know like the value of information has changed from 100 plus years ago where the value was largely isolated to your local community. And it only had value if applied to your life directly. You know if like “What is the rainfall gonna be so I know what my crops are gonna be this year”. That's is what mattered. Nowadays most information is human neutral stories. Which means 99% of it has absolutely no bearing on your life whatsoever. [Chris]: What did…What did Breaderman [phonetics] write about today? And usually when he writes something it is pretty good. But you know like what is Zillow announcing. What evaluation is iBuyers gonna have now? And it all is… [Christian]: Sure in 10 years 60% of the market is gonna be iBuyers. So…That may or may not be true but what to do with my business today you know like some of that stuff can inform but by in large nothing comes of it and it doesn't really affect your stuff. Like you know so the question really becomes why do we get so easily distracted, wrapped around excel about stuff that doesn't help our clients or doesn't get us more business or doesn't grow our brokerage. It is just distractions… [Chris]: People need something to talk about. [Christian]: You mean today. Right. [Chris]: It gives people something to talk about at the water cooler. “Oh what about this? What about that?” But you know what, the water cooler doesn't make you money? Does it?  [Christian]: Yeah but you know it gives you that dopamine to be upset about something. Or enraged about something or worried. [Chris]: It allows people to feel about things that aren't important. [Christian]: Yeah. And I wouldn't say like these things aren't irrelevant. Necessary. But by in large it might affect things years down the road. But again you know it's energy. It's…You know you've got  a limited emotional and mental energy and response so much of it on Facebook or on this you know kind of what's the big distractor and whatever else.  As opposed to building something, doing our business, staying in our lane. Doing our thing. You know like when I was at a larger franchise yeah there is people shuffling around doing transactions but mostly it was people sitting around [censored] about other people's business or “Have you seen what that person is doing or that person is like”. What does that have to do with you? Like mind your own business you know.  [Chris]: “I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer…[crosstalk]. I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer”. “Really?” Yeah I mean think like that that those permeate offices and corrupt culture. And you know from a macro level it is important to understand where the industry is going. So that you know how to kind of steer and navigate the industry with your business. But for the most part every other day when you see a new evaluation all you need to know is venture capital funds are putting money at high buyers. That's it.  [Christian]: True. Yeah. Well for the average agent like you know if Compass is growing in a market or Open Door has you know some hundreds of million dollar you know the funding you know round fund how does that affect your business? You know maybe if your brokerage is thinking about the future and how you want to structure your business it could you know just looking at trends but I mean I think a lot of it comes back to you know, we've got limited time and resources. Why are we spending it on these things that don't directly impact us? [Chris]: It's easy. Because it is easy to talk about that. And it is harder to go in and put the work into growing our business and to talk about that. It's not…It's not cool to talk about the work that people don't want to do or that aren't doing. [Christian]: Trust me… [Chris]: And when you're at the water cooler and you're sitting there talking about “Oh I just made this call and that call” and people are like “Eh” and they clam up and they're crossing their arms because they don't talk about that because they're not making their calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They're not out there prospecting. They're not talking about you know, the next best thing in growing their business. For a couple of reasons. So there is the idea of competition selling a lot of offices. They don't come up at their training and their culture from an abundant perspective. They think everybody is competing against one another and therefore they don't share ideas. And then you know the other side of that is they don't know what the [censored] they're doing. So they… [Christian]: I mean I think part of that…That is practically true but I think the other side of it is most agents know what they need to be doing but they're not willing to do it. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: You know and so it comes down to why do so many agents hate being real estate agents [laughter]. You know they're not willing to like do the work. You know and thinking about this from a brokerage perspective, you know like I have had to think about whether the different models we could have. How much do we provide? Do we provide leads? Do we just provide systems? Do we provide nothing? You know and we try to do like this middle road of competitive commission split with the essential tools to help them be successful with serving their clients. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But you know than there are some models that like provide you know leads and this and that. You know initially that is like “OK well that would be great if we got to a point when there is like abundance of incoming you know business that we could refer at those leads or whatever”. But at the end of the day if a brokerage is providing all that to their agents than what the hell do you need agents for if they're not…I mean what is their job if they can't even provide their own business? [Chris]: A brokerage at that point becomes a big team.  [Christian]: Right because essentially I mean that is what you're doing if you're providing leads. You're doing everything for that agent. They're just sitting there you know. [Chris]: Wrapped up and happy. [Christian]: Yeah they get it handed to them. It's like I mean the point of brining that up is you know what is the role of an agent if they're not willing to like do anything. If they're not willing to provide their own business, grow their business. Find new clients. You know than there can be a lot of different ways. That's not just I mean your classic cold call meeting. I mean you can do so many different things. But the point of it is you have to be doing certain actions everyday to move that ball forward. [Chris]: Oh yeah.  [Christian]: If they're not sure how to spend their time talking about the thread of Open Door or Compass or the NAR or Lumion [phonetics] Legal Battle or how that may change the industry like yeah that is interesting but it's not gonna help you in your business today, you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I think that you hit it right on the money. If it is not gonna help you in your business today I don't think you need to be paying that much attention to it. Get back. Put the horse blinders on. Look down. One step in front of the other. And you know what a lot of agents don't do is they don't go out and try new things. They will just sit there and look at what other people are doing but they don't actually go out and try something on their own. [Christian]: Well they'll poop on it. They're gonna be like “Oh that is the stupidest thing ever. Until it starts working and they try to copy it. [Chris]: There was a…there was a video that I saw going around and you know gets mixed reactions. There is an agent. Erica Gotiwolf [phonetics] she did a home tour where her entire body was blurred out and looked like she was naked. I am sure she wasn't but she well picture it was naked doing a naked home tour.  A couple of days having that video out, property is under contract. She has 5 listing appointments and 2 referrals. There was a lot of negative feedback on that video but you know what half of the people really thought she was ballsy for doing it. And she got additional business out of it. You know I shared that example with my agents this morning. And low and behold they you know I think a light clicked and they started realizing you know what not everybody has to love what I am gonna do in order to be successful at this. So… [Christian]: Well and the reality is if you're doing something different or better you're probably getting negative feedback than positive. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: And you just have to…You have to know that the people who you know the haters are people who are gonna be stuck in mud and go and hate anything that is new. Don't worry about them. You know if you're doing you know Sutton you know naked home tours, if the goal is to get more eyes in that listing for your client, that is affective. You know you called the stick or, you know, whatever but it was effective and aligned her wish people who likes the outside of the box marketing ideas so got her more business for her ideal client base. Who cares what people who don't understand that think. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think the whole point of this episode is don't pay attention to everything that is in the headlines in real estate because it is going to distract you everyday. It's all the same stuff. Somebody has gotten more of an evaluation. Somebody is telling you how you can become an influencer. Somebody is saying that this company did something else. Focus on your business and just the how…if you pay enough attention to the headlines you don't understand where the industry is going. Don't worry about all the shiny objects. [Christian]: I mean at the end of the day I wanna say…You know I don't want to say “Don't pay attention to this stuff” but just be intentional about how much time you're spending. I mean I know like people who are really intentional and really killing it on social media they're not doing it that way because they're on social media all day but they're doing it because “This half hour is dedicated to me building my social media” and they don't touch it the rest of the day. So they're actually productive. Do the same thing with these headlines. “OK here is my half hour to read the most sensational headlines and then move on to my day”.  [Chris]: All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. Stick with us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Make sure you sign up for our newsletter so you get notified every time a new episode drops. Thank you so much for tuning in and please make sure that you give us a 5-start review on iTunes. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode There are so many different needs that individual real estate agents have for their business. Many agents need detailed support and guidance in building and operating their business. Others need a framework that they can operate their business within that will lead to greater predictability in their income. Each agent is different within the real estate space and Brokers should understand how they can tailor their model to match different needs of agents. What do agents want from their broker? The re:Think Real Estate Podcast focuses on different aspects of the real estate industry. We share stories of amazing agents that defied the odds to create a name for themselves in the industry. We also share best practices for what works for us in our daily lives. Tune in every week to hear a new episode. Oh, and while you're at it please leave us 5 STAR review on iTunes! Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 29:39 RTRE 51 – What Do Real Estate Agents Want? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White and we're so glad to have you along for the next 30 minutes. Guys what is going on? [Christian]: Just trying to stay warm. It's snowing again in 2019 in Seattle. It's actually pretty bad so it's like adages of snow and lots of hill lots of nice… [Nathan]: Yeah I guess…It's tougher for you guys in Seattle with your skinny jeans that come up past your ankles and getting wet and you not knowing what to do. [Chris]: It was hard tracking to the local coffee shop this morning right? [Christian]: Yeah. I am a steady guy in the eye. [laughter]. [Nathan]: My Fedora blue is off in the heavy snow and I didn't know what to do. [Christian]: I got my flannel and my…down. [Chris]: I don't know if I can make it to the grocery store for more almond milk.  [Christian]: You can come here and try to drive down in the 18% grade in the ice and see how you do. [Nathan]: When I went to pick a granola for the day care it was really challenging. [crossover talking] [Christian]: It must have been really nice living in the woods and having… [Nathan]: It was a great episode. Guys I gotta go [laughter].  [Christian]: That's a little [inaudible] I get it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in to re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you…No I am just kidding. So no what are we talking about this week Christian? [Christian]: Let's talk about what agents want or what we think agents want. Or what agents think they want but then they find out they don't really want that. [Nathan]: This is great since I am an agent and I can't wait to think what 2 brokers think we want or at leats…[laughter]. [Christian]: Well we're also agents. I mean technically we're brokers in Washington but…you know I know there's things that I want which is why I set up my brokerage the way I did. But then you also have the… In my experience you kind of have like what agents say they want, what they think they want and then you actually find out what they want. Because you provide them all the things they say they want and they don't use them. Or they still go somewhere else because they're lured by something else sexy and shiny. And then realize the grass isn't actually greener. So I think it's actually interesting conversation to have. What do you guys think? [Chris]: Well I think that you know…for that is gonna depend on where the agent is in their career.  [Christian]: Correct and what they want. [Chris]: You're got all new agents. You've got all different types of brokerages. You know your new agent is gonna need a lot more than your experienced agent so where do you want to start first? [Christian]: Yeah I mean yeah I would say there is probably you know on the spectrum 3 major groups of agents I would say. There's the agent who doesn't need the help, doesn't want the help, just wants a low fee, low cost structure to do their own thing.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: That's fine that's gonna be like Nathan, you know, what you're doing. You know you started at KW you got your feet under you and kind of went out to do your own thing. You know, after you figured it out.  And I think there is the bulk of agents which is kind of in the middle of. They want some support of some sort whether that's access to the broker for questions or marketing or CRM or systems or something. They're gonna want some sort of support and they're willing to pay up a higher split for that.  And I guess you could say maybe like Redfin or something is kind of the other, I don't know if I would say other end of the extreme, where it's employee based. It's not independent contractor based you know. So you're got no anonymity because you're not an independent contractor. You're playing your part in the cog as a cog and a corporation. [Chris]: I think…I think those are on the grand scheme of things. Because most offices don't operate on employee bases. I think we can probably categories those like team members. Those that don't want to build their own business, just want leads provided to them, go out close to sale, be a sales agent.  [Christian]: there you go so their value that they're looking for is being part of a team.  [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: Yep. [Chris]: Well let's start with the…with the bulk of the agent. What do you think most agents want in a brokerage Christian? I am putting you in the hot seat first. [Christian]: Yeah that…It's…As I figured out or trying to figure out this independent brokerage thing you know and discovered things as you know agents have come and gone…I think what they want or what they realize that they want or need…I don't know. You cut that out [laughter].  I think what agents come to value is some sort of system in the organization because they realize very quickly that most of them are not organized. And so they're gonna have that provided to them without them having to figure out technology and CRM and that kind of stuff. But I think it's something that a lot of agents have to discover. It's probably not something that they value up front.  You know they have to discover “OK I am getting business and I am bringing it with my head cut off you know and I cannot really handle so much because I am scattered, you know.” I mean that's…That was kind of my idea. I mean that's what I saw was agents want to be in front of people. There's not necessarily systems, processes organized. You know, that kind of stuff. So the whole idea is you come here, we provide that so you can go out and be in front of people and not have to worry about thinking you know the back end stuff. [Chris]: So basically all the behind the scenes taken care of so they can focus on selling. [Christian]: Yes and no. Actually I think it's not initially valued until they realize that they're not good at it. And they need it. So…It's not sexy so…but I think some things are sexy, they're a little more obvious. Would be like marketing. Like you know are there options for me to have a listing that I don't have to create from scratch. You know.  Whether that's internal marketing team or some sort of template platform. You know that they provide it for you. Or social media post of something. Something that makes it easy to get in front of potential clients or you know marketing stuff for your…for your buyers, for your sellers. That sort of thing.  I think a big one which is…seems pretty universal is access to the broker when they have questions. You know so…because I have had people come here say “I can't…it takes 3 days for my broker to get back to me”. You know and I am like “That's kind of ridiculous you know, you have one job as a broker. You know”. Technically I mean that's kind of the big thing it's like supporting the agents when they have legal questions. Contract questions [laughter]. You know if you're not doing that what the hell are you doing? You know.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? [Nathan]: There's is many things here. Like you know me. I am the bear bonds. I don't moat, I don't need all the fluff. You know… [Christian]: Oh fluff huh? [Nathan]: You know what I mean with it [laughter]. [Christian]: I know what you're saying. [Nathan]: But you talk about like we go back to this you know agents being so busy, right. So you know an agent says “Well I need all this, right…Or…”. But than they don't actually use it. And so I…I…like I was in that box. Like I had all the stuff but I didn't use it. So why am I paying for it. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: There are so many different directions you can go. You're right on the types of people I think that the sharks like myself that you know or hunter killers, whatever you wanna call us that you know we're happy going out and hunting and eating what we kill and that's…We really enjoy that.  And then there's that middle of the pack you know I call it your dad bought group, right. You know they're just happy standing in lane [laughter] and not doing anything. And that belly is gonna appear and they're not gonna be much about it. They're comfortable. That's what we are as a society. Were a [censored] comfortable. So they're not gonna challenge anything at all right. They're just gonna say “Yeah I don't mind giving out 60-40 split. I am good I am getting my CRM that I am not using.” All this [censored] that they're not really using but they're telling themselves they're happy. What they are they're just comfortable and they're not truly uncomfortable and I think to be a hunter killer or shark you've gotta be comfortable being uncomfortable.  And then you've got that far end of the spectrum of that person who's got really no ambition to me or they just…they don't know what the [censored] they're doing and they're on that employee you know plan. So go for it. You know that's happy. And that's fine. I…I love the middle of the road pack. There's you know they're great and they do a great job and people have different circumstances right. And I don't want to feel like I am bashing that middle of the road pack. Why? If you're a mum or a father, a single parent whatever it may be, you may need all those things to support you. Maybe you can't get out and you know be the hunter killer that you really want to be. Which I would challenge and say you could. But maybe that is just what works for you at this given time.  So you know I could…Again I could talk about a lot of different things. When I started I wanted leads. I wanted leads and I wanted to know how to talk to them. Converse to them. And become more educated and knowledgeable. That's what I wanted. So than once you get past that phase I think than there's the evolution. You kind of have that fork on the road to go down this path and you stay there.  And then you're just happy in your zone and you go “Well I wanna go this way”. And you go the opposite direction. So I think it depends on the type of individual or personality you are and I think it depends on where you are in your career. I mean hack, I might get to the later stages of this and go “Man I am good you know what”. And join a team and get comfortable and take a 60-40 split and be happy, right. I don't know.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I'll push back a little bit on the characterization of the middle. Because to me it's such a broad…I think most agents would wall into that as far as agents are gonna line in franchise or whatever.  There is a good size group of them that are comfortable that aren't doing anything, that don't have a sense of urgency. You know I would say that's probably the same group that you know brings industry down as far as you know ill trained, ill experienced. Those are always gonna be there you know until we radically change, you know, where the bar is in the industry. Training or something. You know.  But I would say that I think there is a mischaracterization just because you're kind of in that middle, that you're not hungry. It doesn't mean it. Yeah I know plenty of agents who are killing it because they're hungry and because they're using…Because they're organized or you know have a team or whatever you know. I think you can be successful kind of doing that alone like you know not having a CRM or being an organized or refusing… [Nathan]: I am organized. [laughter] [Christian]: Not having a CRM and that sort of thing. But…Because I think if you're driven you're gonna be successful. Just a matter of you know kind of that quality of life or that you know…running with your head cut off. How much business can you handle. How much do you want to handle versus kind of having it…it systematized whatever so.  I think you can do it like you're doing it or be in the middle so to speak. And have that stuff provided to you. But I think you also hit an interesting point about leads. You know a lot of agents are willing to give up you know, splits because they want leads handed to them. And I am kind of divided on that because I mean in general my thinking is “Well if you as an agent can't figure out how to get your own business, what good are you? Like that's your job, is to figure out the business. What the broker is handing to you, the leads, the business, what do you need agents for? Like they did the hard work for you, you know.” The contract once you've been through the process is easy.  So I mean that's just kind of me. So that's not something we do and theoretically it's something that maybe we'll try to figure out or whatever but it's kind of ideologically speaking you know I don't want lazy agents that just want the business handed to them. You know I want sharks like yourself [laughter]. I want people that are motivated that are gonna go figure it out you know. [Nathan]: So than what would you provide to me as a shark? Like you know I do good business. So you're here in the Ohio market. You want me. You're like “Man I need Nathan on my team”. Or “How do I make this happen?” What are you gonna give me or what are you gonna provide me that's gonna change… [Christian]: I don't think that you would find value in the things that we provide so I don't know if that would be a good fit. Because for us is you know you come here, we give you your email, your CRM training. Back office stuff. If you're like “I don't need that I have my own thing.” well you're probably not gonna see the value in this let's give the culture we provide. You just want to go your own thing.  And I have had agents that said “Hey I don't think you're a good fit because all you want to do is do your own thing and you don't want any part in like the Sea-Town culture or what we give you. You don't find value in that so you want to negotiate a different split. Like it's not how we do it. You know it's not what we're looking for”. So it comes down to you know, what the agent values and what the brokerage's strength is.  [Nathan]: But you didn't pitch. You didn't pitch me. You didn't say… [Christian]: No I am not pitching you. I want agents that see the value that we bring. I am not gonna settle to an agent. I don't. I don't…I don't settle. I don't do pitches. I mean like this is what we do. This is what we're about. If you want to be part of it great. If you don't you know there's just no brokerage down there that won't give you anything. Wont charge anything either. [Chris]: So I think you both hit on some good points. But what are the key things that for…I think you both missed is humans are…We have a pack mentality. We want to belong to something that is bigger than ourselves. It helps with motivation. It gives us a sense of purpose in our lives. And I think the majority of agents choose their brokerage based off of how they…how it aligns with who they are personally. Yeah you have people that go out and do their own thing. But even the people that are…are attending you know their meetings in a video game are still a part of something that they feel aligns with their core values.  Another thing that I think is extremely valuable in the brokerage stand point is that a lot of agents don't know what they don't know. Their…their job is to make a living. Their job is to serve their clients and to go out and to make sure that the client is getting the best experience, that they are generating a referral and repeat business, that they're able to be the shark and to go out and get new business. Their job is not to follow industry trends. It's hard to do that stuff when you're doing a full time sales job. To be able to see what's on the horizon and look at the industry from you know, 30 thousand feet or 100 thousand feet versus being on the ground in the business are 2 completely different skill sets. And you know there are agents that don't see value in that. There are a lot of agents that they don't care one way or another because they just want some leads and they want to go out and sell. But then I think a vast majority of the agents really want to know what's going on and to have all the data that is collected really put into a form that is presentable and easily understood so that they can relate that to their clients and reinforce that they are a true expert.  I think that there is a lot of value that can be brought by the brokerage on this level and I think that a lot of agents when they realize that that is one of the core focuses of an office can really determine whether or not that is something that fits in line with what they want.  Now you guys both talked on leads and leads are a funny thing because leads can make a good agent great. Leads can help a new agent increase the size of a database very quickly. And if when they're done right form a brokerage stand point leads are not about giving handouts because for example our lead team has extremely strict requirements on their metrics and if their metrics aren't met their leads will be paused until they're able to complete the metrics that are required. At that time they will be reinstituted. And if they continue not living up to that message I've got a waiting list of people that want to be on that team.  And it's not to say that everything is done at a higher split. The leads are because we have a cost associated with that. But mostly the agents that are doing the leads they're only paying a higher split on the leads that we generate. Everything else is on their normal split for performance. So it just gives them an incentive to…if as a broker I can give some of my agents an extra 10 or 15 thousand dollars a year in their pocket that's business that they otherwise would not have had, and increase their database for future business down the road than I am doing my job well.  And if I can do that without you know hindering their ability to grow their business and be successful I am doing my job well. And when we're doing that along with building a culture and giving people that cause that they can believe in and that mentality of belonging than I am doing my job well. Now those are the things that I think a broker needs to do.  [Christian]: Yeah. I think you're exactly right. That kind of that culture I mean what we usually lead with as a brokerage is the culture and the experience. You know. And the experience is through technology blah blah blah, and things that we provide but the culture you know is not something that is replicatable.  [Chris]: No, culture takes years to develop. [Christian]: Yeah it's good. [Chris]: And it can be killed with one bad action. [Christian]: Right. And it's something that you know I see you know anecdotally I have seen here as far as…you know I can't speak about culture per se but definitely that hurt mentality you know I have seen you know form a distance like the brokerage I started off with like it started off…Because they're some big franchises you know within 2 miles of my office here. And you know I have seen you know the manager team left you know that brokerage, that franchise and went to another franchise and than you started seeing just and exodus of agents from that brokerage to the other brokerage just I mean just huge turn over in agents that had been with this brokerage for you know 10 years, 15 years.  And it wasn't because this other brokerage provides something better. It was because they like the people. Everyone is going there. That's the place to be. You know like it wasn't a tangible thing it was a more local grasp grip culture and the people you know. And you know and somebody I am trying to hack this. I am like how you know the people we're been bringing on they come to me already sold. They're like “We love what you're doing, the philanthropy, the culture. Innovation. We wouldn't be part of this.” But they're new agents and I am fond of that but that takes a lot of work up front to train and mentor and stuff.  What I am trying to hack you know is like how do I increase my ratio of experienced agents to brand new green agents? If you figure it out let me know [laughter]. Because it comes down to what the Sea-Town have that X, Y franchise doesn't have or can't provide. You know why would they leave some place they're comfortable and then no people as established brand or name whatever to this unknown scrappy indie brokerage?  [Chris]: Yeah so our focus is primarily on new agents. We...We put a ton of effort and time into training. So we have a lot of experienced agents that came to us back in the day when we were…just starting out. And our costs were so low that people came over. You know I bet back in the day Nate you would have been paying less with us at Sellect than whatever you're paying now. And we had to go away from that.  But interestingly as we got away from that we moved towards splits that were more in line with the services that were offering performance increased. Agents were making more now paying us a little bit more than the ever did. When they were paying us hardly little…hardly anything. And you know 100% of nothing is still nothing. And when we focused on production and training and we increased the splits people see a lot more value in what we do and our per person productivity has gone up since 2015. It was around 300.000 per person. Now it's a little over…Just under 1.1 million per person. So performance is tied to it. Yeah. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's an interesting point because that is something that we're starting to try to do. Because before it was just kind of me doing 1 on 1. And I am a big believer in training support you know because my experience was you go to a brokerage, the brokerage is like “Welcome aboard. You know you have a heartbeat, good luck. Let us know if you need anything”.  And maybe would provide some training here and there but nothing systematized. Nothing is priorities. You know there's no organization to any of it. And as a new agent you don't know what you're supposed to ask. I mean like “OK I have a contract question.” “Do you have a specific question to ask me?”. You know that's not…”Teach me how to…how to business plan and how am I gonna generate you know, build my business”.  So we're starting to do more on that. I am very involved in that and since we're coming again to your point Nathan like agents you know, may say they want one thing but than their action maybe betray that they don't really value that. So we've had you know some agents sign up for you know our new training and stuff but you know there has been push back of “Oh it costs money?” And “Oh I don't have the time”.  And I am like “Hey listen like you put…you get out of it what you put into it and if you don't want to put money into it, you don't want to put time into it you're obviously not serious you know.” I am willing to work around scheduling stuff but I am not gonna pay for you. Like you know. So that kind of stuff can be difficult. Kind of trying to figure out who is a good fit and who is worth investing in versus they did. You know. [Chris]: So I've got a question for you Nate. So being in the style of brokerage where you're the hunter killer, you're the shark. You're going out and doing everything for your business, where are you getting the insight, the direction? Where do you find time to find that on your own without you know hindering your sales business? [Nathan]: Insight direction into what? [Chris]: Future of the industry. Strategy where you need to position yourself in the next few years?  [Nathan]: Well… [Christian]: The pivoting. [Chris]: We did an episode on pivoting. [Nathan]: I mean there is more than 1 real estate podcast in the world [laughter]. [Chris]: No no. [Nathan]: I am just kidding. [Chris]: I mean why would you say something like that? [Nathan]: It's amazing what is free out there right? You know again through reading alone and listening to other podcasts or you know you can gain a path of knowledge. The other side is to talk to other agents. You know there's…I have a few colleagues here you know I am very close with. And they're not at our brokerage at all but you know if I got an issue, a question “What would you do? What do you think?”. You know I call them.  You know you play in a playground and, you know, of like people and I think it helps grow. You know, its…You know secret agents don't make money. Well secret agents aren't gonna learn. If you don't go and mix and mingle and network with people that are like you. And it doesn't have to be a ton but you're not gonna learn anything right. You have to go to a place that does have a culture of sharing ideas and not the “It's all out for me”.  You know I applaud KKW when I was there. I had that culture you know with the people that I at least worked alongside. So I think that's important. You know there's plenty of ways. Again I think it's agents. Sometimes we love to act like we're so busy but we're not. I think it's about prioritizing your day and having a daily work flow and this is a job.  So many people sometimes you know, how do you do again this is a job but it's one I love, it's one I am passionate about. If you're passionate about something you're gonna learn more about it. You guys all know I love to run. Right. I know a [censored] lot about running. [laughter] I am not good at it. I am not good at it but I know a lot about it right. So…You've loved… [Chris]: Wait what are you talking about you're not good at it? [Nathan]: I don't know well that's the good thing about running. You…To be good all you have to do is be able to run right?  [Chris]: Yeah. You start moving you don't stop. [Nathan]: Right exactly. But something you're passionate about you're gonna be inclined to learn more about it. So if you're an agent listening to this and you're not truly passionate about what you do, if you don't truly care maybe you need a different occupation. [Chris]: Or you need to talk to somebody who is passionate about what they're doing and you see if some of that can rub off on you. [Nathan]: Yeah that's a whole episode of “Your why”.  [Chris]: Yeah you gotta find your why. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I want to give kudos to you because most agents, and I think you're kind of the out wire there as Christian said earlier. Most agents don't have the time or the desire or just the energy to go out and do those things, mix and mingle and have discussions with people in the industry. And for those people that's where a solid broker comes in.  For the handful that can do it on their own we're got plenty of brokers that have a solo shop and they're producing. They own a firm. They do great work, they do great jobs. So it doesn't always take a brokerage. But they're…You've gotta have some sort of community or pack mentality. You've gotta have something you believe in, something you can grow with. And something that you can aim for.  Alright everybody than you so much for tuning in to this episode of re:Think Real Estate. I think it was a great talk. If you haven't already, please go to rtrepodcast.com that's for re:Think Real Estate. So rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for our newsletter. You will be notified every time a new episode drops. Also please, please, please go to iTunes, Google Play and leave us a 5-star review in Spotify or wherever you want to find us so that people know that we're good. I don't know. Thanks for tuning everybody. Have a great week.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Tim Hur is the Managing Broker of Point Honors & Associates, a residential real estate firm in Duluth, GA. Tim has built a great firm and has also served on NAR's Fair Housing committee during 2018. Tim joins us to give life to the fair housing conversation and why it's important in our business. He also answers great questions around involvement in the industry and commitment to clients needs. Don't miss this episode. Tune in and listen to your favorite real estate podcast, reThink Real Estate. You can find Tim Hur at https://www.pointhonors.com The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 36:42 RTRE 49 – Tim Hur, Managing Real Estate Broker of Point Honors [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Guys what's going on? [Christian]: Not much. Talking to my favorite people.   [Nathan]: Speak for yourself. But I am glad to be here on recording so that's good. Excited we get to talk about some new stuff. For someone might be boring but I still find it interesting so I am excited about that. And this is about it. [Chris]: How is your CMA going? [Nathan]: My CRM…I am just slightly…I'm doing alright. [Chris]: CRM. I say CMA because Christian was just talking about could services and CRM. You know. [Nathan]: That is something I am still failing at. We won't talk about it. We have a guest and we don't want to bore people. [Chris]: We'll move on. We do. We do have a guest. We have great guest. His name is Tim Hur. For those of you who haven't seen him at NAR events, Tim is the managing broker of Point Honors. His bio is a freaking novel. So we're gonna let Tim. Tim thanks for joining us today.  [Tim]: No thank you so much for the invitation. I really appreciate it. It's a lot of fun.  [Chris]: It's great to have you on. So for…for our audience you have achieved quite a lot of honors. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? And what you're doing. [Tim]: Sure. Thank you so much for that [laughter]. I appreciate that. Well my name is Tim Hur. Unfortunate not related to the fictional character Ben Hur otherwise I would be not selling real estate. Of course. But no I am…I was your 2018 chair, national chair for diversity for NRA based here in Atlanta. And I have been rocking and rolling ever since, been a realtor for what 12,13 years now. Kind of have been doing this right after college.  [Chris]: Nice. So tell us your story. Did…Where did you grow up? How did you get into real estate? Where did you go to school? All the fun stuff. [Tim]: Sure. I was born in Huston. Moved to Atlanta than got too far away. You know, I went to high school here. I went to Georgia Tech right after that. And… [Chris]: [inaudible] [Tim]: I know. [laughter] Either you hate me or you love me. One or the other. But I had a really good opportunity going to real estate. So I got my license and got into real estate right before the crash. So it was really good. We all…I think a lot of us who have endured the pains of early real estate and have been in the industry at least for a while and everyone is complaining about interest rates right now but you know we started real estate when we were selling into it. It was 7,8,9,10,11,12%. So you know.  The market tanked so I moved over to commercial for a little bit. And sustained myself with Doreos [phonetics] and commercial and came right back swinging and we've been…You know we have a small team here. We have about 18 agents in our company and we operate pretty well. So… [Chris]: That's awesome so you were the 2018 national chair for Federal Fair Housing and implementing that. [Tim]: Well slightly. So yeah I was 2018 chair diversity.  [Chris]: Can you tell us on how that went on.  [Tim]: Yeah so the 2018 yeah chair for diversity. [Chris]: OK. [Tim]: So the diversity committee from the national association of realtors we were…one of our tasks was to make sure that we helped launch the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the fair housing act. So we were…we were very hands on on that last year.  [Chris]: So what was the…like how did that go? What did you do for the 50th anniversary? I know I saw you at several events. But what was the whole…What did NAR put together for that? [Tim]: Sure. So you know a lot of us you know we think of fair housing and fair housing violations more as…I mean this...It is obviously a very dry subject and a very boring subject at times but it is very instrumental and very important. But a lot of us put their housing as a risk. More than something that you can violate… [Christian]: You can't [laughter] [laughter].  [Tim]: …Trouble and then we learn about it. But really we were trying to take it different aspect of it and try show that fair housing really should be implemented in the beginning where you really should know about fair housing.  And the 50th anniversary was very, very instrumental and very…is very important because as realtors we are on the wrong side of the law. Back in 1924 our code of ethics actually said that we would not be instrumental in introducing members of the community that would actually bring down poppy values. It was a direct attack on you know Asians, Blacks, Hispanics. So there was actually red lining and we were instrumental in doing that. Obviously we…that's why it was very important. [Chris]: We as realtors, not… [Tim]: Right. Realtors [laughter]. Yeah that was in the code of ethics. And you know can you…Nobody really believes that 50 years ago that we were actually fighting against fair housing.  And you know obviously people don't know this as well but you know Atlanta has a very strong history with Dr. Martin Luther King and he actually was a very big pioneer in fair housing. And the day after the assassination of Dr. King, about a week later was when the fair housing act was signed.  So it kind of…you know it kind of…there was a lot of things that went out to it. And realtors got smart and the legal issues got smart and we started putting restrictions and covenants. And you know building you know, fair housing violations into them. But now it's obviously, it's all been taken away.  You know as realtors or you know, people that are in the real estate industry we are now looking beyond race and all the…classes at the fair housing act and trying to include LGBT queue housing rights and stuff like that. So we are looking at the future as well to make sure that stuff like this does not happen again.  [Nathan]: So question for you than Tim, and I don't want this to sound ignorant.  [Tim]: No no. It's OK.  [Nathan]: Right [laughter] you know, like fair housing you said it sounds boring but it's not but then again how big of an issue is it? Like it's not…Like I just don't…my mind doesn't think that way to say “Oh we can't take you here because of this, that or you know redlining as we talk” or steering. My mind does not work like that. Like it just… [Tim]: And that's like…that's the point. Right. So a lot of us…And that's why it was very important. Not a lot of us don't think to vio…Intentionally violate the fair housing act. Nobody goes out and says “I am gonna discriminate tomorrow” or “I am not gonna do this and that”.  We do it unintentionally and it brings up…that's why it was brought up to light. You know when we…for example you know there is issues such as you know I know that you know we as realtors and tidal companies you know there is a lot of D distinctions where it says “This property cannot be sold to somebody of black descend or Asian descent”. It is actually built into the legal description. [Chris]: I saw somebody post one of those online the other day. Yeah. [Tim]: Right isn't that crazy? [Chris]: Yeah and it's the first time I have been in real estate since 2010, that's the first time I have ever seen it. [Tim]: Yeah and you…it's still there. What people don't realize is that Tidal companies they assure over it because it is illegal. They don't really remove that portion where it says, this portion you know “This must sold…”.  So you know a lot of it is awareness but a lot of us don't go out and say “I am going to go and discriminate against you know, somebody in some, you know one of the protected classes.” We just don't think that way. That's why it's very important. That's why NAR really…and a lot of people took this as a moral of risk issue. Our committee was very…we were very adamant about you know rewriting the fair housing camp book. And making sure that everyone is tarter at the beginning. Yeah not to intentionally violate but a lot of us just don't know. And we just don't know. Sometimes you need a refresher.  [Christian]: So I have a question so if some would say, I have heard you know going back… [Chris]:[inaudible] [Christian]: Yes. And I am in Seattle. So you know it should be much more progressive and more focused on… [Tim]: Sure. [Christian]: …Discrimination. That sort of thing. You know I have heard you know very well articulated points that you know the history of real estate is reared with if not has a lot of racism and discrimination in history. And sounds like back in the day NAR and probably the whole real estate industry as a whole is on the wrong side of this issue. When did that change? Was that kind of the process of the civil right movement as society started shifting? Or.. [Tim]: Yeah I think…So I think you know I can't speak on behalf…I am not a history bud, but you know a portion of it you know when FHA started issuing loans. You know a lot of after World War 2 a lot of our veterans wanted to have the white big fences and to live in suburbs. And they were denied that because of FHA insurability and saying there whole fair housing violations here.  You know, as people came back and they were promised they could live in suburbs and they don't have to live in you know in the city limits sometimes and you know a lot of this stuff that were not allowed they weren't given the same rights so to speak. Some were African Americans but you know we also have to look at you know women. Women were not allowed to own real estate without the permission of their fathers or their husbands until certain parts of the country until the 70s or 80s. So you know, this is a very recent event. These are not stuff that again you know you talk about Seattle being very progressive and you know and California LA but you know fair housing violations come all the time.  [Chris]: Really? No way. [Tim]: I know that there are several instances where I have been, when I go around the country for renters. Renters they see an interracial couple. And the landlord is like “No not renting to you”. But in the beginning it was fine because they look at the last name and they were like “Sure sure sure”. And than they come and meet the tenant and they're like “I don't want to rent to you anymore”. Why? “So what's really the case. Why are you not renting to me?”  So you know there is a lot of those…there is instances and maybe there are one offs sometime but I think that if you talk to some of our women or if you talk to some of our multicultural clients or agents they may have a lot of different stories. And it was really interesting to hear a lot of stories.  You know there was one case in Chicago. There was one of the champions that I know. And he was talking about how he opened a real estate company and people just kept his phone lines busy so that he cannot sell real estate. So you know back in the day we didn't have email so you know all we did was we had a group of people keeping his phone lines constantly busy so that nobody could call his real estate office. [Christian]: Wow. [Chris]: Because he was black. [Christian]: That's messed up. [Tim]: That's crazy. Yeah it's crazy. You would never think that. That's just something they thought about. [Chris]: You know what year it was? What year was that? Do you know? [Tim]: This is right…I think this is…I don't know. He does speak often. He is at the VLNAIR [phonetics] conference. Well…But yeah it's crazy just to hear this. [Chris]: It's nuts.  [Christian]: That's in our generation. [laughter]. [Tim]: Yeah.  [Christian]: That's… [Tim]: It's only a few years. So what can we do? [Christian]: Yeah for like your situation you're talking about with the…the rental discrimination with like mixed race couple or whatever. I mean what sort of resort they have because I mean let's say “Why don't you rent to us?”. I would imagine most landlords aren't gonna be dumb enough to be like “Well because you're black”.  [Tim]: You actually would be surprised.  [Christian]: OK. [Tim]: Actually you would be surprised. So you would actually be very surprised. And a lot of realtors you have to be very careful as well.  [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: Because you know and you know the way that you…You have to be puritan. If you report it you have a special dedicated line. You know you have to really be careful and they'll make the calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: You know if it's not any to you and they deny you. They may not sustain. They may not claim race or they may not claim sexual orientation or whatever the case is or classes. But they can…if you are denied they will call the landlord back and see if it is available for rent. And if it is they will try to go through the whole process you know with a very different case scenario. And see why they wouldn't rent. So you know if you don't report it, it doesn't get reported. So we encourage everyone. If you see violations, you have to report it. [Christian]: Sure. Now I would imagine that the violations, well I mean you know prior to the fair housing act you know it was just kind of part for the course. But I would imagine with those initially enacted those violations were much more obvious you know as they were struggling to civil rights and racial discrimination stuff. I would imagine it is much subtler these days. I mean what are you seeing as the most common violations you know and I would imagine a lot of those are even unknowing violations. What are you seeing now?  [Tim]: Yeah I don't know if there is any common violations. Right. And again nobody goes out there and says “I am going to discriminate against a certain race or you know religion.” It's you know…it may be more nuanced or a little more subtle than before. It may not be so plain. But you know it does exist and it does happen.  You know it depends…depending on what part of the country you may be in and if you're not aware or how to work with a certain culture you may…you may…you may be found in violation. Especially from the code of ethics not if you are a realtor. But you may be found guilty of violating their housing. And again it's a matter of reporting it. Rather than you know…And figuring out was it really a fair housing violation they really…”Are they doing something against me?”. [Christian]: Sure, do they take into account kind of intention versus ignorance or kind of just kind of if you were violated you violated it. [Tim]: That's…it depends on how that I guess would…how they want to…you know, how they want to approach it. You know I think a lot of the familiar status gets…gets you know found upon. You know being single versus with family right you know with 2,3 children,4 children, 5 children. You know what…I see that part often as well. You know, disability. You know, you have to make sure you don't discriminate on disability. So it's…I think some of the…You know…A lot of the stuff…some of this comes up especially during the rental process. No, I don't think you know someone says no to somebody when they buy or sell as much as you may see that in more of a lender, tenant sometimes. [Christian]: Sure. The ones I have seen…You own a brokerage, is that correct? [Tim]: I do. [Christian]: OK. As do I and Chris. And the thing I have seen most common that I had a couple of agents on would be like listing descriptions. Would be like “This is a perfect friendly house”. I am like “Yeah you can't say that”. You know, great for kids, you know.  And the other think I heard recently you know was an agent who was working with an Indian buyer and they were like “I want to live in a neighborhood hat is primarily Indian”. He is like “I can't tell you that. You do your research, you tell me where you are looking and I will support that”. But you know… [Tim]: Yeah if you say like “Oh yeah this is…you know…I think I know where you would like to live because there is a very big Chinese community”. You know that…that's…you're steering somebody so you have to be very careful how you do that. You know the next kind of the big one you know is schooling.  You know schools and how much is good schools. Is that also kind of rooted into fair housing right. Because sometimes some of the better schools will have certain races that would make them more predominant. And so people have been using sometimes, may be using schools for fair housing violations. So you have to be as an agent and as broker, be very careful of schools. Because they are looking at that now. [Christian]: So you're saying they're kind of using that as the avenue to be in a predominantly white neighborhood or something like that? [Tim]: Potentially yeah, potentially right. So you may need to be careful on how we present schools. You know if you're saying that this is a really good school it's very different form saying “Hey this school is predominantly white”. You know in a predominantly higher class subdivision, or a neighborhood so you have to be very careful of how you use school in it too because they can use that… You know it is interesting that you bring schools up too. Or I brought it up but you know the listing descriptions anyway. Because the other day I was browsing around and there is a couple of apps on…on target marketing. And some of the target marketing for properties I have seen clearly violates fair housing. And I brought it to their attention and they're like “Wow wow we don't do that”. But I am like “But you can click male or female and you can click how many children that they have and you can click you know…”Because the data is out there.  So you have to be very careful on how you do your advertising as well and this is why Facebook got sued. Because you know make sure that you're advertising when you do decide to purchase ad space, that it is open to all. Because you know in certain people…and this is another unintentional case.  So people have said “Hey this million-dollar house I envision this to be a certain client. You know it's gonna be someone with a certain amount of wealth. And you know a certain race and sex”. And so they target, hyper target it you know a certain demographics so to speak. And you know instead of targeting based upon salary they were doing it…you can literally click on the different options and I was telling them “This is very bad”.  And then of course they redid their algorithm and they took out some of the choices but that it happens. So again another unintentional violation. You're not going out there as an agent to intentionally say “Hey I am going to market this property only to white people or only to Asians in this market or only to certain you know, Chinese”. You know whatever the case may be. So unintentional. [Chris]: That's interesting that you…you know with the whole schools and how Christian you mentioned being a predominantly white neighborhood for a school with…you know Harvard was just recently sued by Asian students for… [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: For not being able to get in because they were too good. So I mean it…cultures are changing. The demographics are changing and you know us as agents…what are some things Tim that really brokers or agents should know? Brokers can train the agents or things that agents should know to be aware of outside of the normal like federal fair housing. Because you mentioned online with algorithms. [Tim]: Yeah. [Chris]: There really has not bene anything that comes down formally that says “This is how you can use demographics online to advertise”.  [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: In the past we've had…Say you're in the Buford Highway area and you're advertising in a Korean newspaper. In Korean. In…In my training it has been that if you were advertising that elsewhere in the general population that is sufficient but if you go online and you target that it's a completely different story.  [Tim]: Yeah I think the intent is always a key factor, right. So you know as brokers our jobs are getting much harder. You know as an agent it's very important to train them but you know we…they're independent agents. You know we don't…They're not employees of our companies. You know we do have to watch what they do and what they say and I have seen a lot of employment agreement or…You know not employment agreement. I have seen a lot of independent contractors in the game that are actually saying that they are able to monitor social media. Right? Because that's one of the places where a lot of people do market their properties now.  And it does get a little harder as our jobs you know, as you grow you firm and your brokerage firm gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, how do you control your 3000 agents in you know do not violate right and who is the one that gets the trouble the broker or the agent? Right? Who is the one that has to go through the whole process and who is the one that is gonna get fined?  So it is you know…It's hard to always…Our job is you know to not employ…not only to encourage our agents to make money but to help them you know elevate their business. But it is a harder job for us. You know you mentioned advertising in different languages. And yeah you know I always say make sure that you just don't advertise it just to 1 community or 1 avenue. Make sure it is available to everyone.  And I think just in general it's good practice anyway. You know, why would you put everything in all Chinese or in all you know or in Spanish. You're limiting your market sphere anyway so why would you do that? [Chris]: Yeah. [Tim]: You know it's good practice. [Chris]: So what got you involved with NAR? So you came into this before, divide, you got into commercial. What created your firm and why did you get involved on the level that you did? Let's steer a little bit off of fair housing. [Tim]: Yeah. It was fun stuff. NAR you know being a realtor, starting off in a realtor world, you know that is something that we kind of naturally gravitate towards. I was fortunate. I kind of took a different path. I went to NAR and started on committees at NAR first.  I am kind of a little bit of a goof ball and I was taking a…auditing a class. ABR class. And I just happened to be with a lot of the past presidents and future presidents of NAR in the class. And it was really cold and being from Georgia I am always cold. I don't like snow and I took…I was in a hotel room and me and the instructor were just fighting you know over the thermostat and I just eventually took the hotel robe and I just brought it to class. And the minute he started playing with the thermometer I was like “Done, can't do it anymore”. Just put on my robe. Out at the NAR building. All the along had no idea. I didn't even know who I was even talking to. I was just like “Oh I came to take a class”. And then everyone was like “Is that the robe from the hotel? Did you just steal a robe? We're paying for your class”. And I am like “Oh no no I will take it back, I will take it back”. Come to find out that was Ron Vapes and Steve Brown and those were all the future presidents and the past presidents of NAR. So I think I made a little bit of an interesting impact rather [laughter]… [Chris]: Yeah that's a little bit of an impact.  [Tim]: Yeah but and you know I started getting involved with the realtor world just because it's very important for us to really ensure that our business is sustainable. You know there's so many things that we do and one of the few plan to my president circle…planted our members in Georgia. And I just…you know. Right? [Chris]: Our Pack baby. [Tim]: Our Pack. Yes. I do believe in giving back. And so I do give quite a bit back just because I have seen the policy world. I am a policy wonk. I have you know as…I want to make sure that our housing rights are protected. And you know yours and my jobs are…you know we're not impacted every day and I see that. So I want to make sure that we give back. [Chris]: Well you know what Tim is a former Our Pact chair. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your contribution. [Tim]: Of course. [Chris]: You did everything that Our Pact does. So what made you go out and start your own brokerage? How did you get back into residential? [Tim]: So I work with a lot of international clients. You know, the good thing about having a dip or diversifying in the real estate world, you know, when I jumped back into commercial I also started working with a lot of international clients and global clients.  And so you know our firm is a little unique. Most or our agents actually are bilingual. They do speak more than 1 language in our firm which is nice just because we do cater to a whole different demographics of clients at times. And we can help them.  So when I started working with a lot of international clients they weren't really affected a lot by the recession. So they were able to work with a lot more investment properties and stuff like that. So when I started coming back into the residential world they were looking for commercial and then they were looking for something to buy on the residential side. So I kind of put my foot back in and it was fun. I started my own firm because I wanted to have a little bit more flexibility you know. Back in the day I would have said that it was because of commissions but looking at it now as a broker you don't really make that much money. You…There is a lot more headache. But I wanted to… [Chris]: A headache [inaudible] changes [laughter]. Yeah. [Tim]: But I did want the autonomy. So I started the firm and ever since I did it has been going ever since out. You know there is a lot of changes going on in the industry and I hate the word “disruptor”, but there is a lot of change going on. But I think at the end of the day if you service your clients and you take care of your clients that's why they have always been with me and you know I think they will always come back. [Nathan]: A [censored] men to that. [laughter] [Tim]: Yeah so I just… [Christian]: Nathan said the first F bomb in the day. Ladies and gentlemen Nathan [censored]… [Nathan]: Well you know how I feel about that so you know you don't need a big name, you don't need a gigantic flag, you don't need to have all the tech in the world. Just need to take care of people.  [Tim]: Yeah absolutely. And you know in that thing that is you know going to independence or working in a mega firm there is always pros and cons. But people always go…they go back to you. They back to Nathan White because they know Nathan White is in real estate. They go back to Christopher because they know that Christopher is in real estate.  So I think that if you know…and that is what I try to teach my agents like “You guys can leave me any day, I mean I have to sign your release forms if you decide to leave tomorrow or today or within the hour. You know, I hope that you know, during the time that you were with me that you were able to build your own brand so they come back to you for ever and ever and ever for real estate purposes. And if you can't than tie yourselves with…if you're not gonna be in real estate than tie yourself with a referral company and make some money that way”.  There are so many different avenues in making money in real estate. And I have a top agent, a top agent in my office. I call her top just because she doesn't sell real estate. She refers. And it's funny because she works for a company that does a lot of relocations and if they don't offer real packages she's like “Where are you moving? I know where you're moving to. Let me find you an agent”. And she just collects a referral check all day long. And so in my world that's a top agent who doesn't sell real estate but is able to collect and really utilize her license. But it's funny how…I know when the checks come in. And I am like “These are yours”. I know exactly whose check it is. It's fun.  [Nathan]: So Tim I always like to ask some fun questions and I typically pluck them out of a great book by Tim Ferriss. [Tim]: So you're the one? [Nathan]: Yeah I am the one right. Tim Ferriss wrote a great book called “Tribe of mentors”. He asked everybody the same questions and I always like to ask guests a few of these questions that he asked people. So I will fire away with the first one. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it? What would it say?  [Tim]: A billboard with anything that I want on it? [Nathan]: Yeah what would that message be? [Tim]: [laughter] I think people very close to me would say…It would probably say “Leave me alone”.  [Nathan]: Really [laughter]. That's great. [Chris]: Tim Hur wants to be left alone.  [Tim]: You know when I am at home and I want to be by myself, I want to be by myself but you know you don't get that luxury as a broker and working with international clients. We're always…We're always doing something but you know just having the time alone to be like “Give me my 15 minutes”.  You know I try to turn off my phone when I am working out just because I am like “That's my 1 hour that I have, don't have to worry about clients. You can wait”. But yeah I think that's…you know that was the first thing that popped into my head. [Nathan]: That is fantastic. Might be the best answer that we've gotten for that one yet. I don't know. Leave me alone. [Tim]: I think that's the most truthful one you could get on the show. Right? [Nathan]: Yes and I appreciate that. So... [Chris]: That's good. [Nathan]: So number 2, what are some bad recommendations you hear in our profession? What are bad recommendations you hear all the time? [Tim]: Bad recommendations. You know I don't think anything is ever a bad recommendation. I think you just...you're just…you're just very misguided, right. You just…people don't realize all the ins and outs of how difficult it is to buy and sell a home.  Recommendations…Gosh I hear that every day. I hear bad recommendations every day. I will say that rather than giving examples you can probably tell by my face. My partner says that I have facial trots. And I can't hide it anymore. So when I hear something really weird or wonky my face just turns. So you know I don't say anything. You just kind of tell from my face. [Chris]: You just see the reaction.  [Tim]: You see the reaction. So I have been told that I need to really control my facial [laughter]… [Christian]: Start doing Botox. Just numb your face. [Chris]: Yeah it will tone it all down. Just nothing to worry. [Tim]: Yeah just gotta tone it down. That's probably you know sort of recommendations I hear all the time. I will tell you that. Just kind of be careful of that. [Nathan]: Got you. So 3rd one. What is a book that greatly influenced your life?  [Tim]: A book that greatly influenced…Who reads books? OK. [Nathan]: Audible counts. [Tim]: Yes I am a bad millennial. I like to have something in my hands. No this is… [Nathan]: I am a book nerd so… [Tim]: Oh you're a book nerd. You know I am a big fan of the Chronicles of Narnia and I do like reading a lot of of very you know I don't want to say Christiany but you know it's very interesting reads. You know things that are kind of up in the air and Scrutiny…One of my favorite books is the Scrutiny of Letters. It was…I re-read that book not long ago and it's a very good book. I would recommend it. [Christian]: Allegory. Allegory story. [Tim]: Yeah. I just like the title too. I mean Scrutiny of Letters. It's kind of like…you know. [Nathan]: I will tell you I like books. I do have to do a quick plug. For those that do listen and like to know what book…Right now I am reading a book called Men's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. If you haven't read great lately go grab this book. It's really interesting. He was an Auschwitz survivor. If you are having or struggling with your why in your life, go read this book. It will speak to you. Great book right now. This one right here. You can't see it because you're listening but those that are recording right now can, but an awesome book. So anyway, onto that. Well best answer ever. Leave me alone. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. [Tim]: [laughter]. [Christian]: I have a quick question as we're wrapping up here. So you own your own brokerage. So you're a managing agent. So are you selling real estate yourself? [Tim]: I am. I am a compete broker.  [Christian]: OK. So you're doing that [inaudible]. Whatever. We know what you mean. You're still involved in NAR? [Tim]: I am. [Christian]: Right you're still committee. So what's…What's…I mean I don't know how you find time for all of that. But what's kind of your next move? [Tim]: Mainly. [Christian]: Because of your involvement in the association. [Tim]: You know in this…as long as you can constantly serve and you know I don't mean that there is always ways to always get involved. You know I am a big Our Pack guy. I am a big global guy. Big diversity guy. You put your hands in a lot of business.  But the thing as…the important thing rather than what I want to do or what I see myself in 5 years with what the realtor world is really more of “Let's get everyone else involved too”. I think that's just really important on a local level. State level. International level. You know we hear all these different stories about “The realtor committee doesn't represent me” or certain things, “Certain communities don't represent me well”. We can find you a mission. We can find you a way to get involved. And I think that's the really more important story than trying to find where I really need to be plugged in the next life. We can all…We're all…We're realtors. We're selling real estate. We can bounce around. We can serve wherever we're asked. [Christian]: Yeah. Do you…Do you believe that non realtor, non-members have an ability to serve and make an impact without being a member of the NAR. Is there…is there diversity in that or… [Tim]: Yeah, so actually there's 4 multicultural associations that NAR recognizes rather. There is the agency of real estate association of America. There is a national association in… [Christian]: ARIA.  [Tim]: Yes ARIA. There is the national association of Gay and Lesbian in Real Estate professionals. NAGLREP. And National association of real estate brokers for the black community and the national association of real estate…of Hispanic real estate professional. NAHREP. So you know just because you're a realtor…You know if you're not a realtor and you want to get involved with some of our multicultural associations that's where to go.  And so they make an impact on their own communities itself. So yeah you don't have to be a realtor. We would always encourage you to be one but if you want to be one. But even if you're a part time or…you can still make an impact because there is so much to do in our world. And yes we don't have…There's only 24 hours in a day and we don't have a lot of time but you know there is always…You can shrug along and you can find something to do.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more Tim. Thank you so much for joining us today. We got a lot of really great nuggets both on the fair housing side, both on your background and getting involved. For anybody who wants to reach out how can they find you? [Tim]: You can find me again…My name is really easy just think of the fictional American character of Charles Helson and think of Tim Hur. Other than that you can find me on Facebook. I am easily available on social media all summer. It's always nice when you get hacked and someone makes a fake profile of you which I found very recently but yeah you can't miss me.  But you can find me…the easiest way is just google me and find me. If you don't google yourself and do a vanity search of yourself I highly recommend it. [Chris]: Definitely. Awesome. Everybody thank you so much for tuning in for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Catch us back next week as we celebrate our 50th anniversary…not anniversary. Our 50th episode.  [Tim]: Congrats you guys. [Chris]: Could be a long year. But thank you Tim for joining us. Everybody if you haven't go to rtrepodcast.com. Put in your email and name in the little subscription form and be alerted every time an episode drops. So you can hear great nuggets from guys like Tim Hur. Thank you and we'll see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Today Nathan throws out a surprise topic for us to discuss. We talk about the questions people should ask when determining whether a brokerage is for them or not. We want to know what you love best about your brokerage. In the comments tell us what your favorite part is! RTRE_Ep_48  Audio length 29:24 RTRE 48 – What to Ask When Choosing a Brokerage [music] [Chris]:Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys what's going on guys? [Nathan]: Hey what's happening? I am trying to stay warm in the polar vortex here but it's only one day people so don't panic, it's not a week long. [Nathan]: How cold is it there right now? [Christian]: It's about 7 degrees. It's the end of January we're recording this.  [Chris]: It's gone up a little bit since we talked last. Our entire state shut down for a little bit of rain so Georgia is closed now [laughter]. [Nathan]: And if it even gets flurries in Georgia it's like the apocalypse like it's hysterical. [Chris]: Well I mean no joke we are 5 years to the date from Snowmageddon. Like the time hop came up on Facebook “5 years to the date from Snowmageddon today”. And last time that happened I ended up having to walk 11 miles on icy roads back to the house because my car wasn't getting me there. So…Yeah I mean Georgia does not know how to deal with that stuff. [Christian]: It's legit. [Nathan]: Like 2 inches of snow or just a little ice? [Chris]: It wasn't 2 inches but it was like a maybe a quarter inch of snow on top of an inch of ice.  [Christian]: Ice will…Ice will mess up your day so… [Chris]: Yeah ice did it.  [Nathan]: When you were talking about ice I saw that you were talking about something. [Chris]: No yeah so… [Nathan]: What are we gonna talk about? [Chris]: Nate is gonna surprise us with today's topic. [Nathan]:[censored]. [Chris]: Nate what are we talking about today? [Nathan]: So you know we've talked about this before but I am gonna go to the…you know we're in a public group. I think all 3 of us are on it. The…the Inman coast to coast and somebody earlier this week posted again about how to choose a brokerage. And I want to say maybe it was Tanya or somebody. I forget who put the…the questions to ask out there.  But did you guys see that about an agent going to choosing a brokerage? Because some of this I agree with, some I don't agree with at all so I thought it might be good to go back and talk a little bit more about this. Maybe we have some new agents since we started doing this that you know are in that struggle bus of “Hey I am stuck here” or “I don' know what to do. I didn't…I didn't choose right”. And so these questions…These questions [background noise] Whats that? Sorry. [Christian]: Did you just say struggle bus? [Nathan]: Yeah. Struggle bus. [laughter]. [Christian]: OK I just wanted to make sure I heard that right. OK. [Nathan]: Yeah so if you guys check your email I just sent you that.  [Chris]: Yeah I am looking at it right now. [Nathan]: Right so like if you look through some of this like I don't know if I agree with all of this. Of course I never agree with everything, right. [Chris]: You never agree with anything. [Christian]: You're super agreeable. What are you talking about? [Nathan]: I am so… [Chris]: You're the “Yes man”. [Nathan]: Oh my God you all are ridiculous. [laughter] [Christian]: I am…I looked over this a little bit… [Chris]: I am seeing this for the first time. Let's talk through it. [Christian]: So you're talking about…You're talking about kind of the generic agent guide to choosing brokerage that is out there? [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Yeah. We're not gonna say who it is put out by but there's a guide out there. Alright so first step in this guide research. What's this? “Pull MLS numbers for at least 3 years for the office. Volume, transaction count, map the transaction if your MLS offers that feature. Know how far from the office they are.”  I don't know. If you're a new agent, you don't have access to the MLS.  [Christian]: Yeah. So what I found in general is that whatever brokers you go to in you're quote interviewing with them they're going to spat out the stuff that makes them look best right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So if they're agent heavy they're gonna be like “Oh we dominate the market by agent numbers”. If they're you know actually killing it in volume or, you know, gross sales that's what they're gonna…that's what they're gonna highlight.  So you know the thing is if you're a new agent how does the brokerage production help you? I mean it…it doesn't directly. Now it might indirectly because OK maybe there is a lot of experienced agents that you can shadow or piggy back on. But just because they're productive doesn't mean it will help you do yours. They're busy. You know and now they're hinting like if you have in mind “OK I am gonna do open houses.” OK you're gonna need an office that has listings , you know. Now you don't need it in there they're not here. You can call other agents and brokerages if they're willing to collaborate… [Chris]: What they do that? [Christian]: Well it's not…it's not a culturally…I don't know. Some do. You know if they have a more collaborative mind set. I mean I all about that but not…Most franchises don't have that. Might be more in the “Protect your own” mind set. So…They'd rather not do an open house rather than have someone from another broker do their open house. [Chris]: That should never happen. Not in my state. [Nathan]: Well you know here's another one on here that really tripped me up. This is a value aid and establish. “Why the office of the brokerage you're interviewing with is or isn't successful.”  How do you define success in a brokerage? [Christian]: Right what are your metrics success? [Nathan]: Right I mean. [Christian]: Numbers and profitability but you're not gonna know the profitability numbers. [Nathan]: Right. I mean you know our brokerage doesn't do a gazillion transactions but I believe the ones that we do do are very high quality. So, meaning from…you know from a client experience. So again I don't know you know if that counts or not. It's like saying “Oh I am hearing another party say look at agent reviews on yelp or Zillow”. I mean [censored] I am not interviewing like…That's not applicable to me I guess so I struggle… [Christian]: But when it comes to researching a brokerage what would you say? I mean I don't think these are super valid because they center around like on traditional like sales like…Do they do a lot of business? And that than quantifies whether they're a good brokerage which I think has nothing to do with is a good brokerage or not. Maybe.  I mean I guess you could kind of determine market saturation or market share but again as a new agent is that really gonna help you I mean unless you're in a small town and there is a dominant brokerages and a bunch of other small ones that don't do anything. I mean here in Seattle there's tons of brokerage and they all have their…they're all getting those things. They're all doing sales. You know it's not one, It's like crushing it you know. [Chris]: Well I think it all depends because everybody's definition of success in real estate is different.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: You know I was speaking to one of my agents about this the other day because as we bring in agents you know depending upon where they are in their life cycle they may have different goals. Like some of our agents are retired from one career. Do we expect that those agents are going to hustle and grind and built a massive business working hundreds of hours every month just for a few years? Probably not. You know those people are probably getting into this to do a few transactions a year, have a place to come, learn, hang out, interact with people and have fun.  And then we have some other people that are getting into this for the exact reason I just mentioned. They want to grow something big. And it's not our job as the brokerage to define what that success is. That's up to them. Our goal is to provide the infrastructure, the culture, the support necessary for them to build what they want to build. At least that's my philosophy on it and you know…go ahead. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's a good point is that there's not one definition of success as an agent. You know there's gonna be the younger people that don't have family and nothing better to do but grind it out for 80 hours a week. Other ones that are mostly, you know, full time, stay at home parents or something that are gonna do occasional job, you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So this question that they ask in here, this bullet point I think is excellent which is “Ask the broker about his or her story as an agent, team lead, sales manager or broker owner. To what do they attribute their success? And you want to under…you want to uncover his or her core beliefs about what makes a successful agent”.  I think that is an excellent point. When you're…when you're looking for finding out what firm you want to work for it's gonna be the team of people that you're surrounding yourself with and knowing their core values. If they're not transparent about it. If they're transparent about it you should know their core values you know within you know the first round of interviews with them. But if they're not asking questions like this would be fantastic as an agent looking to find a right…a different brokerage.  [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. That's…That's a helpful question in there. Some of the ones like I said I struggled with. That one is good. I was talking to somebody the other day and they said “What about getting this person to come in and be a manager”. And I was like “Yeah but the problem with them managing is they don't actually have any history”.  I have a big struggle on my struggle bus that there Mr. Harris [laughter] for people who coach or who lead that don't have any history or is very minimal. And so how do you…Say somebody is running this office or brokerage X and they go in and they're recruiting and you ask them you know “How's your history” and they go “Well you know I stopped selling 10 years ago now I just coach”.  I kind of look at somebody like [censored]. Like that's not even relevant now. 10 years I mean that's like 100 years in real estate world so I don't think you would be helpful. I think you have to be current and I think you need to be somewhat of a producing broker to a degree or one that is heavily involved with their agents' development and still maybe…I don't know you guys would probably tell me I am wrong since I am the agent you all are the brokers but you know you only have to do a couple transactions a year just to stay fresh I would feel like. But to tune out I think it would be a mistake.  [Christian]: Yeah I think that's kind of a good point in regards to like I was listening to…I had something in Inman Connects New York livestream this morning and someone was talking about the difference between the focus of the brokerage and the agent or specifically in that context the team. And the brokerage model, traditional brokerage model is head count. They focus solely on head count.  Now you may do that through you know training or some other low thing to lure agents in. But [cough] I think part of the brokerage responsibility is when you're interviewing an agent flashing out “What are your goals for the expectations? Can we match that?” Or you know. Now maybe most brokerages don't care. We're smaller so I think we can kind of customize or at least make sure it's gonna be a good fit. Because one of these questions in here is ask if you can ride along, you know basically shadow an experienced agent. Because I mean that's a great way for a new agent to learn.  Now Chris I know you have like a required mentor program which is great but that's one of the…as many awesome things to see on offers that's one of our weak spots is that we're not huge and so we don't have a lot of agents that can you know that have enough business to be able to “Hey we have a new agent can they shadow you on your listing today?” Like… [Chris]: It took us a while to get to that. [Christian]: Yeah it's gonna take a while. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But I think that's good because I did…the one agent I had lost and you know there's nothing I could have really done about it is just the nature of how big we are was they wanted to, you know, shadow someone's business. Someone who is you know doing a lot of business. And we just don't have a ton of agents doing you know huge amounts of business everyday. You know so they left so they can mentor under someone who was. And I totally get that, you know. Hopefully it won't get to the pace where, you know, that won't be an issue. But we're small, new and scrappy so you know your strengths and you know your weaknesses. [Chris]: Yeah I think that I saw here a description of the office culture, head count, tenure of the agents, breaking it down into head count and turning it over rate, the agent or broker's involvement in the local, regional NAR leadership. The broker agents' involvement in state and national associations, outside or NAR and the broker and agent involvement in local community school boards, charities.  I think that's a pretty good description of an office. Like if you can as a broker owner…If I am sitting down having a conversation with somebody these are things that I know and can recite you know in my sleep about who is doing what because these are things that we promote. But, you know, having an office that encourages involvement…A lot of offices don't do it maybe because they're afraid that when they put their agents around other agents the other agents are gonna try and recruit them.  That's not necessarily the case because there are a lot of agents that I get around that I don't want to recruit. Being in those positions. But it's still important that when we're in this industry that we do our best to support our industry and that when we are serving our communities we are doing the best to support our communities through local charities and organizations.  So having a company that supports that stuff goes to describe how their culture operates and it puts the priorities in perspective you know and just know that with turnover rate it's not always…Sometimes that needs a description. Because for us right now we're releasing agents 2 to 1 because we have become a lot more selective in who we are hiring than who we are letting go. We are letting a lot of licenses laps that are non-performers and that's one of the reasons that our productivity has gone from like 300k per person to like 1.1 million per person. So there are other things in there that need to be picked and taken into account. [Christian]: Yeah and I would say that that focus on culture is because big I mean it's really easy to quantify your split or you [cough] some of these other things that agents tend to focus on like how much money are they gonna be taking home. Now what that doesn't take into account is well “Is the brokerage is gonna support me? Am I gonna flourish there? I am I gonna hate it when I am working around. Am I gonna hate doing the work you know into the office you know. Are you gonna be part of something bigger that you're on board with?”  And I think all that closely ties into like the brand of the brokerage. What are they known for? Are they involved? Do they encourage agents involvement? And really if you hone that as a brokerage and you have a line with your agents and that's what they're drawn to you're not gonna be afraid of losing them because a big franchise down the road that doesn't have, you know, a healthy culture like that or doesn't…Isn't known for something other than name recognition of their franchise. Like there's nothing there for them. Like they're gonna love who they're asked you know what you provide. You know it's really hard to quantify that cultural experience, that feeling of satisfaction of knowing “Doing what I am doing, I am involved, I am helping, I am part of the listing and not just you know a number on the spreadsheet”. [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: Well you know if you look at this document I mean it's great but I really think they could have skipped all the way to the bottom and point 4 like the bullet points there I think is perfect. “Do you fully understand what a brokerage is offering here?”. What I find most agents even when they switch to another one still don't understand what they're getting offered. “Do you trust the broker?” You would be working with them. I think that's important. “Do the claims of the brand line up with everything that is isn't offered to agents and clients.” “Do the principals and beliefs align with those of brokers and managers?” That's huge. “Does the brokerage provide what you need now in the future and for the development?” Like to me that sums up the only questions you need to answer almost but above the other stuff. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think it kind of makes sense. I mean I think it could be more concise but I mean those are kind of the…These are bottom line what you wanna make sure you're getting and all the questions up above will help you get to those answers.  [Nathan]: Right I mean those are the…That's the guts of my struggle bus for those people. I…And the reason I say like when you don't want people to make a switch…I've got a colleague who just made switch to another brokerage. And when she left her original one she thought you know  “Hey you know I understand everything”.  She went to the new one and 6 months down the road she went “I didn't really understand the numbers”. And I was like…you know I don't want to use her name but “Hey Sussie how did you not of all people”. Like I expected her to really understand the numbers and she didn't. I think she actually might have paid more at the new brokerage that she went to. You know because she originally left brokerage number 1 because her fees were so high. She goes the second one. Didn't know the math well and ended up paying more.  [Chris]: Sure. [Christian]: Well I think that tied into the “Do you trust the brokerage”. I had an agent who…who I think had made up her mind you know that she was gonna leave. You know it implements new monthly fee because we're losing money on not producing brokers…not producing agents. And I am like “Kate you may think that you're gonna pay less over here but let's talk about this”.  And you know after talking about it and she talks to some other people about “Oh I didn't realize that I had to be a member of the NAR which is another $600 every…” whatever, “I didn't realize that they also did desk fee” and blah blah blah and than I was like “OK you actually have it really good here”.  You know and so…and maybe you know putting some of that back on media and brokerage. Can you get the value there and so she thought she would find it somewhere else. But half the time you know they end up leaving thinking the grass is greener. And than “Oh hey they were sold at fallen stolen goods” you know. You don't realize it until after you leave. After you go somewhere else.  [Nathan]: Right. Right they don't understand it. [Chris]: I got that from a couple of agents. They left and now they want to come back and they were on like one of our old legacy plans and they don't get that option anymore. And that they're like “Oh [laughter] wow this is gonna cost me more?”. Like “Yeah yeah we're doing a lot more now. You had it good. You lost”. So I mean that's another thing for agents. If you're thinking about making a move see what your broker can do.  If you're moving…there was an article that came out a little while ago about why agents make a move. And a lot of brokers think that number 1 is because of the cost. But it's not. I think one of the number 1 reasons is the number 1 and number 2 but it was “Is the broker in their corner? Does the broker have their back?” And then the other one was “What is the culture like at the office?” Because if a lot of…for the most part brokers are gonna make relatively smaller amounts of money. And it's all gonna depend on what they're offering and what their expenses are but you know we're gonna make our profit margin. Hopefully. That's the goal. And if… [Christian]: Wait you're profitable? That must be nice [laughter]. [Chris]: We're investing a lot of it back into the company. But we are making what we need to be making off of them so that we can invest it back into the company and our agents see that but the second thing is culture. Are you working in an environment that you feel that you have the people around you supporting you?  And those 2 were the biggest reasons that agents make jumps. It's not because of the desk fees. It's not because of the NAR fees. It's not because of the monthly fees. Sometimes it is but usually that's when we see people going from very high splits to something that is a little bit more along the lines of the Indie broker margin. Kind of the Indie broker model. Where we have a little bit more flexibility there and we lose the franchise fees. But other than that it's culture and is “Does the broker have my back? Is the office there to support me?” [Christian]: I definitely have to agree with that. I think a lot of agents lead with the cost but I mean in the grand scheme of things I mean there's not…If you're productive I mean what you're gonna end up paying isn't that different over you know a year. You know but it does come down to that culture and that…what was that other thing you said? [Chris]: Culture and support. [Christian]: Culture and? Support yes. Yeah that's huge because I have had agents that come over you know who come over because they're like “How available are you? I can't get a hold of my broker when I have questions for 2 days.” And I am like “That's ridiculous. What are they doing? It's their job”. [laughter]  You know and so it being smaller and not having so many agents and you seeing my primary job and been in the office to support agents you know I mean that's big you know. And just a tip. If you had an office you're not really sure what their culture is, if you want to get a good gage of it pay attention to how they respond when an agent leaves. If they're nasty and two faced get out of there. Get out of that office.  And that was my first office. Like day to day it was OK. It wasn't openly hostile but as soon as you know…Someone who you know agent X was quote “friends” with and helping out one day and they left and the next day they're “Oh that person I knew blah blah blah they're terrible”. And you're gonna be like “What aren't we all in this together? What's this brand loyalty to a franchise that doesn't have your back? Like what do you care as an agent whether or not another agent left?” Like you know like they're being personally, like a personal slide against you know the agent that another agent left.  [Nathan]: Man the colleague that I was talking about earlier when she left her original team you know they went [laughter] Death Con 4 on her. I was like “You don't want to be in a place like that”. Like… [Christian]: It shows your true colors either as an agent or you know as…Like if I hear that as a broker I squash that. I am like “No we are collaborative, we are all on this together. I want what's best for them and if they feel going to another brokerage gives them what they need he no pep talk. I want to support them in there”.  [Nathan]: That makes me think of Tracey Chambers, who is my first team lead. I was…the team lead at the office at Callow Aims [phonetics] and I will applaud her. When I told her I was leaving she said “Nathan I wish you all the best and if you ever want to come back here know the door is always opened and I will welcome you with open arms and if you have any questions feel free to call me”. I still call her. She was awesome and that tells you a lot about her.  [Christian]: And speaks to character and that's what's gonna be the biggest differentiator and the difference between agents. It's not skills, not experience, it's character. Are you gonna do the right thing? [Nathan]: I don't know if we answered any questions actually on this list of things. But I think it's important to talk about again from just an agent perspective because again as a new agent and maybe even within the first year or 2 you just don't know all the questions to ask. And it's…and a lot of it is ambiguous because you can't put value on certain things.  [Christian]: Yeah I think it's a good starting point. I mean I have had one agent who came in with questions and I loved it. You know it would be like “Hey these are some questions I have” and I think they kind of got them offline or you know another brokerage they were interviewing or something. And I am basically like “That question doesn't matter because of this. This question is irrelevant because of that. That's a good question. Let's talk about it.”  You know. So it could be a good place to start but like you said as a new agent you're not really sure what you need to be asking. What questions mater or not. [Chris]: Yeah so I mean we…I think the last time we talked about you know choosing a brokerage and how the brokerage works. That was like early early last year, right around when we just launched. [Nathan]: First 5 episodes maybe. [Chris]: Yeah yeah something like that but I think regardless of where you are in your career if you are new or if you are a seasoned veteran I think the message is you need to understand if there is…if your office is toxic, if your office is not fun to work in, if your leadership is undermining management, if your…if you're not receiving the right support the message is there are brokers out there where that does not exist.  There are brokerages that do have proper support, that do have a good culture and that are fun to work at. And I think that a lot of the brokers who have quotas that they need to meet on the recruiting side I think that those…their attention is in the wrong place and that the broker owner does not have enough time to dedicate to the support of the office.  So that's my message. If you're in a position where you're not sure what's gonna happen with your career, if you're not happy with the people that you're working with my message is just go out and try and meet a few brokers because there are places that do exist where that's not a problem. [Christian]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I agree. That sums it up about as good as you can get. If you got questions you know what you can do? Email us. We'll answer them [laughter]. [Christian]: I am interested and see what questions…you know…Yeah comments, you know. Leave comments. What are the questions? You know what are the questions that agents should be asking or brokerages should be asking to their agents to make sure it's a good fit?  [Chris]: And email us and tell us what you think about your brokerage. Why is your brokerage a great place to work? I think that… [Christian]: Yeah that's good. [Chris]: What do you like most about your brokerage? We don't want to hear the bad things. We hear the bad things all the time. Let us know what you think is the best part about your brokerage? I think that just about sums it up for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thank you so much for tuning in for this impromptu topic brought you by Nate. Thank you Nate. We'll catch you next week.  [music] [Chris]:  Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Now that we're a few weeks into the new year it's time to evaluate our progress. Are we still on target with our goals? Are we busy or are we moving the needle? Join today's discussion and share your bad habits below. Episode Transcript RTRE_Ep_47  Audio length 22:49 RTRE 47 – Are You Busy or Productive? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with my faithful hosts Nathan White and Christian Harris out of Columbus, Ohio and Seattle, Washington respectively. Thank you so much for tuning in. It is a still relatively early in 2019 and we were just talking about you know this is right around the time some people start dropping off their new years' resolution. So I hope…I know it's not anybody in our audience [laughter] but now we start to get in the busy time of year and it's that definition of busy.  What is busy? Is it…Is it necessarily productive or is busy making us money or is busy just the thing that we have to be doing? Because I don't know about you all but picking up my thumb that's like my thing. If I am not doing something right now I start to itch. Like I find myself sitting down sometimes and maybe I will be waiting on somebody for a business meeting and I have to cognitively think like actively think and just saying “You know what I should learn to comfortable just sitting and waiting” and it's something that is really weird. But when I am in that mode I can actually think about what needs to be done and I think that sometimes when we're busy we don't always do that.  So today we're gonna be talking about what the difference is between being busy and being productive. Christian? You're a broker owner, you're starting up a new company. You're back into selling. What…like how are you challenged with being busy versus how productive is your busy time? [Christian]: So you know the funny thing is and I don't think this is an experience unique to me but when I am talking with other agents or just people in general you know the small talk is you know “How are things going? How are you doing?” And the response 95% of the time is “I am so busy, so busy so much going on”. You know, and I think subconsciously we kind of wear that as a badge of honor like “I am so important that I am busy all the time”. At least in real estate. You know “I am just scrambling around because I got so much work”.  But the question really is “Is busyness a badge of honor or is that more a sign of no you're just ineffective in what you do and how you spend your time?” Which is why I find this conversation so interesting because being productive is way different than just being, busy you know. I can be busy and feel like I am getting stuff done by checking off my 2000 emails but you're not actually moving the ball forward. You're not actually accomplishing goals versus “I've got my dedicated time to do this one task and I am focused on, that's the only thing I am doing”.  You know, you can elude to the distractive nature of technology and things these days and make a whole episode on that. But you know I feel that same pull. I am older so and I like to say I am bilingual you know I grew up in a day before the internet and so I remember doing book reports with books you know and card catalogs as the research tools and that sort of stuff you know. [Chris]: You're not that old. I still had that. [Christian]: Yeah I am just saying you know. I remember a day before that and then in my 20s you know adopted technology as in internet and tan smartphones came online and what now.  [Nathan]: I was using an Atticus. [Christian]: And so I remember the times of… [Chris]: Hang on Nate did you just say you were using an Atticus? [Nathan]: Yeah Atticus. I am the old one out of the group [laughter]. [Christian]: Only by a couple of years. But the point is I feel that pull too to like never have down time. To always be doing something, always be stimulated with input. And usually that's in the form of I am sitting there like you said in the doctor's office and I feel the draw. Uncontrolled, my hand reaching my pocket pull out my phone and just mindlessly check Facebook or Instagram or emails like we can allow yourself some time to like reflect and think and ponder which we don't do a lot so we tend to live our lives in a stimulated anxious responsive posture. Instead of proactive duffle posture. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: You know there is a lot in that but I think the business plays into that. [Chris]: So Nate obviously you've shared with the audience that you suffer from ADHD. So is busyness a good thing for you or does that impede your productivity? Like what's the difference between being busy and being productive for you? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean that is the million-dollar question right. I can be busy all the time. But I am not producing results.  [Chris]: Yeah you're good at that. [Nathan]: Yeah. So for me it's about…For me personally again it's about having a very regimented schedule. I mean those that are friends with me on Facebook whatever they're like…I actually had someone the other day saying “I don't know how you do it day in and day out like you check into the gym at 5 a.m.” Like I live and die by a schedule.  For me to get a result or to have production right productivity instead of me spinning my wheels getting around on Facebook and [censored] around and all that [censored] I have to be very regimented, right. Which means when I get to the offices one if it's quiet and the first thing I don't do is I don't get on Facebook right. I have an order to the way I do things because once I get into those realms if you would than I would squirrel.  [Chris]: Rabbit hole. [Nathan]: Yeah squirrel I am all over the place. So I have to be very regimented in what I do. And I will tell you like if I get out of that rhythm it sucks. But when I am in it I am in it. And man I tell you what, I feel great. And so I think you can tell as an agent broker whatever you are you don't have to have ADHD but you can follow…just have…I don't know kind of a purpose drill in life. Have a purpose to what you're doing. You see a lot of the people they get in and then they get on Facebook and then they're looking at their messages and they're here and they're there but they're busy but they're not producing any results.  So I…the way you quantify that to me is did…You know I set a goal list. I have to have a check list. And once I check things off it feels great. I perpetually add to that list. But, you know, in our world how do we judge our productivity? Dollars and sales right? I mean in the restaurant industry they used to say “Sales cure all”. And in our industry I think that's applicable right.  How productive are you? You know you have the agent that says “Oh I was such a great year I did a million dollars”. For them maybe it's great. You have the other ones that say “Hey I did 42 sides or 8 million dollars”. You know I think there's a big difference of who is productive and who is not. And I am giving to each his own. I am not trying to say that if you did a million dollars in 3 sides or whatever you weren't productive but let's be honest you probably weren't. [laughter] So… [Chris]: Well I mean you're right you probably weren't because the average full time realtors are doing 11 sides a year. [Nathan]: Is it 11? [Chris]: I think last I heard. [Nathan]: That is so many. [Christian]: That sounds high. [Nathan]: That sounds high. I thought it was like 6.6 full time. [Chris]: I think the average full time relator not the average realtor. [Nathan]: Oh yeah the average full time I get it.  [Chris]: The average person who makes a career out of it is doing about 11 sides. Not 11 transactions but 11 sides.  [Nathan]: Remember too we are realtors so what do we like to be about? All about being a realtor right. I mean God Almighty you know Facebook all watch it “#realtorlife #showingthistoday”. [Chris]: “#blast” [Nathan]: Yeah like it's like…Like it's all about you know last episode, right, we were talking about being client centric. I mean hell that's all about just being a realtor right. It drives me [censored] crazy. Like #realtor I am like listen our life isn't that bad right. What we do… [Chris]: I think what Christian just said a few moments ago is just spot on. It's about feeling important. People like feeling important and a lot of people in real estate are like “I am a real estate agent. I can help you with the biggest financial transaction of your life. I am so important”. And rather than focusing on going out and getting business and building a business they're focusing on being a realtor.  I had an agent that worked with me for a little while. It was a young kid just starting out. And we quickly realized that he was in love with the idea of being successful more that he was willing to work at being successful. And that is a big difference because you can be really busy and be in love with the idea of being successful. You know go to a show room and take picture with a Bentley and you know have your girlfriend modelling in your Instagram account. It really…But if it doesn't come down to you actually making money it doesn't really exist.  So I think that a big thing is feeling important and Christian hit the nail in the head with that. And people can be busy to feel important. That doesn't mean they're productive. That doesn't mean they're working on their business. So… [Nathan]: Yeah it takes me about the time one time I…another agent we were talking We did not know each other. We had met and I said “Oh you're a real estate agent?” she said “Sure I sure am?”. And I said “How did it go last year?” She said “It was great, I closed 4 houses.” [laughter] And I laughed and I said “You're not really an agent.” She got really mad. [Christian]: Can't imagine why. [Nathan]: [laughter] But again I go back to what you said about what Christian just said. It wasn't about…I don't know, I didn't feel any passion to what she was doing. You know I think those of us who really enjoy what we do we do it because we are passionate about it. Not because we love houses or watch HDTV or anything of that [censored]. Like we love what we do. We love…you know there is that narcissistic side again of you know part of it. But there's also the feeling of just helping somebody buy their home that is very rewarding. And so I don't know I could go preach on a lot of different angles on it.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more. Now I think we kind of got the understanding for the audience of what is the difference between being busy and productive. So how do we focus on being productive with our time? How do we focus on not dealing with the busy work? Because there is about 20% of our daily activities that are gonna result in about 80% of our business. The parietal principal works in that way. So how do we take that 20% and be extremely productive in that? So that it is not really blowing out of proportion or taken away from the other aspects of our business? [Nathan]: How do we…? Are you asking how we measure like…our productivity? [Chris]: How do we focus? How do we not deal with the busy work? [Christian]: There's also all sorts of tactics on focusing. We've had several opportunities on it but I think it is good to kind of go over some of the basic stuff because you know even maybe in super organizing systems like think you know “I am efficient with my time” I get distracted you know in real estate you've got your phone blowing up in fires. You have that put out and you know  ”I am trying to time block to get this project done and the phone won't stop ringing”. And you know… So it could be very challenging but I think kind of like you know quote “new year's resolution” you just gotta if you follow the horse you gotta make it on keep going. Remind yourself “OK I need to turn off the technology and just be self-aware of like the things that are drawing your attention away from actually being on a state to focus on one thing at a time.” You know don't buy into this like “I can multitask and I can have my social media up while I am into MLS and while I am drafting an email and working onto the project”. You're not gonna get anything done and you're gonna be super stressed out.  [Nathan]: Multitasking is [censored] people. Multitasking is for people that can't focus on one thing at a time and complete it. So don't multitask. Get it done. Sorry I get really weird about that. [Christian]: Alright there you go. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Christian]: You said it.  [Chris]: You have no compassion for it. [Nathan]: Yes I can't stand people saying “I am multitasking”. No you have the inability to focus on one item specifically that's what that is. That is 100% what that is. [Christian]: That's a lack of discipline. [Nathan]: Yes. There are a million things to…that you can use in tools and resources. Again just daily habits, you know, goals. Writing goals and not looking at them a year later but looking at them daily. Periodically or whatever it is. I mean. Or you can be really anal like me and have a check list.  [Christian]: Nathan you're making me feel bad because you know that's illuminous stuff but I don't do it all the time. You're hurting my inner child. [Chris]: Yeah but…Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: [laughter] My CRM is going horrible. Why? Because I didn't put a date on it. I know it. I own it. [Christian]: What's your date? Give me a date now.  [Nathan]: I have not…I don't have one yet. [Christian]: What's your calendar? Do it now. [Nathan]: I don't have one yet. I probably…I am actually. [Chris]: There's a couple…OK getting back on track I think there is a couple of things that work for me in trying to aim and being more productive. One is, I don't take on more than I can handle at any given time. [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Huh? [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Trial and error.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: When I realize that I am not spending enough time with the family and some of the projects that I am doing I don't see a future to, whether that be it doesn't improve the bottom line, it doesn't like it's not gonna be used, the reaction to the agent is not exactly the reaction that I thought it would have. I'll cut a project.  I don't take on too many volunteer roles. Like if I take on a new one I give one up. But when I do something I…when I changing a habit, when I am adding something into my routine, I do it one step at a time. I don't go and change my entire routine overnight. And for…you can go back over the last 3-4 months and I will talk about how I changed my entire morning routine off of what Nate did after what Obi said after Obi's show. But start small. Don't change the whole routine all at once.  If you're gonna start using a CRM you dedicate that is what you're gonna do and you just do that for you know 30 minutes a day every single day and then once you're used to doing that every single day than you add something on. But you don't say “It's 2019 I am not gonna use a CRM I am gonna call everyday, I am gonna follow up with this marketing, I am gonna do this that and the other and I am all gonna start it on January 1 and guess what it's now a few weeks in and I have dropped off the map”.  Well you dropped off the map because you have added too much to your plate. Start small than you slowly add on. And then the other thing that helps me be productive is a to-do list. Like what Nathan said. Put a checklist down. I aim for the top 3-5 things that I want to accomplish in a day. I write it down and then those are the first things I work on. So at the end of the day whatever has happened, whatever has gotten done I know that I made at least 3-5 different things that are moving the needle forward in the business every single day.  So that helps with the busy work. Because busy work comes. I got on 100 agents and it's all email all the time. Lots of administrative, lots of busy work. But I always get the productive stuff done. [Christian]: I would love to touch on what you just said because I couldn't agree more on the…because I was just the king of it for the longest time, taking on or challenging myself to something that was too big instead of thinking about it logically. So I look at it from a new agent perspective. I mean you meet a new agent. New agent says “Yeah I wanna do 7 million in sales next year” [laughter]. “OK right. Yeah right”.  We laugh now right and I would love to see it. But how about instead of saying 7 million in sales lets focus on just the first one. Right. And I think it's our human nature to set these lofty goals and then we fall short. We get discouraged and then we just quit at it right? It's OK to have a goal that is somewhat ambitious. But don't…we all know that if it's not within reach it's not worth doing. I mean myself I got a …I got a running partner, Jason Perkins here in town and we both thought about signing up for something called the Moab, 240, it's a 240 mile single loop run through in Moab, Utah, Arches national part of that whole area. 5…5 days around this thing.  I really want to do it. I like…It's on my list. And he said “Do we want to do it this year?” And I had to think through that for about 3 weeks. And as much as I wanted to say “Yes let's do it this year” I said “Eh I need another year to prepare”. You don't know how its gonna be but than it's a little more realistic. To say “I can go on and achieve that”. Maybe I could have done it this year. Maybe not. I think it probably wouldn't have happened but I rather give myself time to prepare to do some other thing. So coming from me, the guy who loves the big things, stepping back and really taking that hard look in the mirror, evaluating what your goals are I think it's huge. Don't bite off more than you can chew. [Chris]: Absolutely. That's been something major. And you to your point Nate with a new agent that's coming in saying “Oh I want to do 7 million” in even taking it a step back. Not even saying “Oh I just want to focus on that first transaction” break it down smaller. “I am gonna focus on getting 7 clients on this year”. Because if you're focusing on just getting the clients the transaction will come. But if you focus on the client you're focusing on the habits and the action items that need to be done to generate business. If you say “I want…I am gonna focus on getting a deal over the next month”. It's not specific enough. “Oh what am I gonna do to do it?” “Well if I am gonna get a deal I need…I need clients right? So why don't I just focus on getting clients and I am gonna aim from 5-7 clients this year. Then I know what my job is. And my job is to build those relationships and get in that position where somebody wants me to represent them”. The transaction will come. Whether that comes in the first 6 months or the second 6 months or the third 6 months it will come if you focus on doing the right things. That's what I got. [Nathan]: Yeah good.  [Chris]: Anything else on being productive? Guys final thoughts?  [Christian]: I don't know. What you said. I have realistic goals. Don't make them crazy. A to-do list is real easy tool and cheap. You don't need…You don't need…paper and a pen. [Chris]: Not even that. Notes apps.  [Christian]: [laughter] Yeah right. [Nathan]: I just say take it day by day. If you know you get distracted and your day goes to [censored] hey you got tomorrow. Start over. [Chris]: Absolutely start over. Don't wait. Don't set…Don't get half way through the year and say “You know what I didn't…I faltered, I am gonna wait until January 1”. Just start the next day. [Christian]: Don't wait until life is perfect and everything lines up just right because it never will. [Chris]: It's never perfect. It's never gonna be the right time. Just make little strives all the time. There's a great book. The compound effect by Darren Hardy, who talks about how making incremental efforts every day is the key to building a successful business. And I like in it to brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth once for 2 minutes, it doesn't do anything for you. But one of my good friend is a dentist. You brush your teeth twice a day everyday it's gonna prevent cavities. It's all about consistency. It's all about the small actions adding up to produce spectacular results if you stick with it. Go.  [Nathan]: So go brush your teeth people. [Chris]: Brush your teeth. [Christian]: That's how the world is conquered. A little goal at a time. [Chris]: That's how it is. Brush your teeth. Your colleagues will thank you and if you haven't already please go to re:Think Real Estate, our website which is rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter and you will get notified every time an episode hits the air. Go to iTunes, Google play, Spotify, leave us a great rate review even if you haven't really listened to the whole episode just give us 5 stars.  [Christian]: Yeah just do it. [Chris]: Just do it. Alright. Thank you so much for tuning in everybody. We will see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

There's been lots of industry chatter about the difference between running an agent-centric brokerage vs. a client-centric brokerage. Today we break down the article written by Erica Ramus for Inman News. The client experience drives the culture, training, and behavior for how brokerage offices interact with their sales agents. We spend time clarifying the difference between the two philosophies and share insight into how our businesses are run. Tell us what you think in the comments below! Episode Transcript RTRE_Ep_46  Audio length 25:46 RTRE 46 – What is a Client Centric Brokerage? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys how are we doing today? [Christian]: Great thanks for asking. Happy to be here.  [Nathan]: Fantastic and cold as you know what because it was 66 the day before yesterday and now it is 21. I don't understand what is going on. [Christian]: The joys of being in the mid-west. [Nathan]: Oh my God.  [Chris]: How is everybody coming across with the weather? [Nathan]: Listen I can't wait to…I can't wait to get to Florida in a week in a half so it's coming. [Chris]: I feel you. We're heading there the same weekend I think. [Christian]: We are yeah. [Chris]: So we were just talking before we started kicking off and there was a great article that came out on Inman recently by our friend and former guest on the show, Erica Ramus about the difference between agent centric brokerages and client centric brokerages and why an agent centric broker is not the way to go for the future.  So…There was a lot of kick back. It was a hugely popular article. I got a little bit of a quote in there. Christian was majorly quoted in the article because… [Christian]: I am very quotable.  [Chris]: Yeah you're a very quotable guy apparently. [laughter] So Christian why don't you tell the audience a little bit about the article and what the difference is between being agent centric and client centric? [Christian]: Sure yeah I mean in a nutshell you know it was nice because we met Erica at Inman Connect last year in 2018 San Francisco and between me you and Jackie Sotto [phonetics] you know there was definitely some like mindedness as far as how we run our brokerages or any brokerages and focus on building it with a client experience in mind.  And so I think the article is based off of you know kind of the strength we so in Inman or different conferences where a lot of…you know the bigger brokerages would get up and just kind of tell and tell they're agent centric. You know it's all about the agent experience, all about the tools, all about the support. And very little talk about the client you know which to me and to her seems very backwards.  So, you know, she reached out to us and we got some of her ideas and wrote an article and it seems like it kind of hit it…It hit a nerve. You know a lot of people understood that. Essentially what we're saying with being agent centric…or sorry with being client centric is that everything we do is informed by how we as a brokerage can empower our agents to provide a better service and experience for their clients. And ultimately their clients, our clients if they're successful you know brokers become known for something, we're doing something big and better as opposed to just turning up transactions like a big franchise might and not really having any oversight or care how the agents do the business. They just want them to do business. [Chris]: So it's…It's not about attract, retain, recruit the agent. It's about providing the experience for the client and how…how can…I think a lot of the pushback from some of the comments on the article talked about “Well why can't you have both?”.  [Christian]: There was a…when there was pushback that's kind of what I saw. And to me that says that they don't really understand the mindset. Because you can't have both. You can't be centered on 2 different philosophies. Right? You're either agent centered… [Chris]: You represent the buyer and the seller at the same time. [Christian]: Exactly. There's a conflict of interest there because it's…your focus and direction is gonna be going in 2 different ways. Because I think a lot of the franchiser are focusing on they're talking about being agent centric, they're focusing on recruiting, retention, how can we give the agents the things that they think they want, that they think will help them to be successful. But most of that stuff centers around legion back office stuff, CRM, technology. Very little that interfaces with the client and has anything to do with the client experience.  I mean there are some exceptions in there as far as like the marketing maybe with Compass or something. But most of it is geared around you know “How can we please the agent to build our brand?” And to me that seems backwards you know. And maybe that's just the mentality but in the indie brokerage we have lectures about being smaller and how to control that experience and how the agents we have and their focus better. You know to me it's all about how can we service the client better and everything we provide to the agent in support to new tools is geared towards that. As opposed to just making them feel good or providing free business or something and it doesn't really have an impact on how they service their clients or how they interact with their clients.  [Chris]: So Nate you were the big franchise and then you went to a smaller more growth orientated firm. What's your take on this from an agent's perspective? [Nathan]: Oh man well I feel like if you're agent centric than you're more of an owner centric kind of guy. Right. It's about profits and bottom lines to the individual that owns that brokerage if you would. Shoot. I also…well you know if I go back to when I became an agent I wasn't taught about the client experience. You know I was taught “Let me show you how to lead generate”.  There was never anything about taking care of the client, putting the client first. It was about “You need to make 100 calls a week, you need to have your lead trackers sheet and out of 100 you hope to get 1”. But nobody said anything about “This is how you take care of a client”.  And so for me luckily coming from a hospitality background I get it. I understand what it means to take care of a client. Have I not hit it out of the park with a few? Yeah I have. We all falter, right? But I…I…I have better grasp I guess because of the hospitality industry. And I actually see people that, at least in my market, that got into the industry the same time I did that have a hospitality background have done well because they understand client focus. So you know not the 2 mowed horn but as we were talking I am in the top 15% in Ohio. For agents. I am a solo guy. [Chris]: Congrats. [Nathan]: Again…Thank you. I go to…I take care of my clients and I think 98% of my clients would tell you I would bend over backwards. I would do what is necessary for them because ultimately it is my reputation as well. So… [Christian]: Yeah I think…I think that's a good…Obviously agents tend to have a different perspective as brokerage owners. Well I think the good brokerage owners have been agents or still are in some regards so they're connected to that side of things.  You know it makes sense I think to a lot of people if you're gonna be client centric that's the agent who is doing that. Some of the push back I have seen is, well the brokerage client is the agent and their job is to service them while the agent's job is to service the client. You know I think that kind of goes to me it says you don't really understand this mentality. You know, because if you as a brokerage owner if the brokerage doesn't care about the client experience or the clients, well their agents aren't gonna care about them. You know that mentality and that transaction mentality is gonna triger down. [Chris]: That is amen. Amen. It all comes from the leadership. Leadership sets the tone for everything that is gonna happen in the company. And if the leadership is saying “You know what go on sell, sell, sell and not focus on the relationship or the experience that that client is gonna have” than how do you think that that is gonna play out long term?  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If the firm said “Go on recruit, recruit, recruit” and all it wanted for you to do is recruit for your down line than how does that benefit the end user? How does it benefit the consumer? Because the broker owns the contract. The agent leaves, the broker still owns the client. And every single industry except for real estate, every single industry cares about that consumer experience. Any financial advising firm, any single one of them. You know all their advisers are independent contractors. They still care about the end user experience.  [Nathan]: Again I go to the restaurant background. It's simple as like caring about the food that comes out of the window that goes to the guest, right. It's about driving those relationships. We talked in the last episode and the one before that about 2019. Back to basic relationships.  Again this relationship is not only from agent to agent but more importantly just agent to your client…to you to your client. And having that relationship that is meaningful. I don't know, you know, I called a client the other day and just to say “What's going on?”. They haven't bought or sold anything for over a year but it was just “Hey what's going on? How are you? How is Bobby? How is Sue?”. You know like you just have those relationships. Care about your people. It will go a long way to serve you better. [Chris]: Wait you actually care about your clients? I didn't realize you did that. [Nathan]: I do. I don't care about the co-host I work with but I… [Christian]: He pretends not to care about people. He is a teddy bear inside. [Chris]: OK. [laughter]. [Nathan]: I pretty much am a teddy bear. People figure it out and I am like [inaudible]. So… [Chris]: We have seen those articles come out on you. [Nathan]: Yeah. They didn't interview me about those things. I don't know it's maybe because I drop the F bomb too often. But… [Chris]: Probably they did the background on you and they were like “Yeah…” [Christian]: we'll pass. [Nathan]: Yeah and you know looking through some of the comments that you said you know on this article some people just truly they just don't get it. I am like, you know, you want to beat them over the head. I am just like “Really how do you not…how do you not understand that?”. [Chris]: Well I think one thing I have learned over the last year and a half, if you focus on the consumer that doesn't mean that you're ignoring your agents. [Christian]: Exactly. That is a common misconception. [Chris]: It is a common misconception so that's why I think a lot of people don't understand why you can't have both. But a broker that is running an agent centric firm, the job for that broker is to recruit, retain and develop agents and that is it. It doesn't…They don't care about the interactions that that agent has with that customer or the client. The end user experience does not matter. It is all about the experience that the agent has with the firm. Does the agent have the technology? Does the agent have the tools and the training to do their job? Is the training going to allow them to sell and create a massive income? It doesn't necessarily mean it teaches the agents how to have a great customer experience or built a referral based business.  [Christian]: Yeap. [Chris]: And when we're talking client centric from a firm perspective it means that we are teaching and training the agents how to give their clients the best experience possible. It doesn't mean that we're not training them how to lead gen. It doesn't mean that we're not training them on all the tools. It doesn't mean that our agents aren't important to us. Because the agents are the life load of the company and their success is our success. [Christian]: Amen. Yeah. [Chris]: But it does mean we're putting on the clients first. [Christian]: Yeah I mean just got a second there if someone I mean a listener is having…can't wrap in their head around this I would say that you know if a brokerage is agent centric you're probably not gonna get a great, you know ,customer experience from that agent. Or if you are it's gonna be very hit and miss depending on you know the agent.  But if you're client centered you're also going to be providing the tools resources training to that agent to make them as successful as possible. So you know you focus on one you're not gonna get the other. You focus on client centric you're gonna get both.  [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: You know another way to look at it is you know if you're at a brokerage and you're like “I can't really tell like are they…like are they client centered or they're agent centered”. I think one key indicator of that is does the brokerage, the guy who does the brokerage, does the managing brokers, do they care how you do your business? If they don't care and they just want you to follow up on your leads and they close transactions they're agent centered.  You know they don't care about the reputation of the brokerage. They don't care how they…you know if you get referral business because they don't care how good you are at servicing your clients. [Chris]: If it's uniform? Right? If you go from broker to broker and you get the same type of answers. If it's all focused on the client versus if it's all about your business. That's another good way to tell. [Nathan]: I would like to add actually ask a question because I don't know. I am sure there is but whoever is listening, hey Sean Carp if you're listening email me at nathan@linkapm.com but I want to know who teaches, if there is a brokerage that really teaches this. I don't know about it either that… [Christian]: Wait we do but… [laughter] [Nathan]: Well right right I am just saying outside of our… [Chris]: If you're in Georgia 770-509-0265 call us for career info. [Nathan]: Outside of our spectrum like and I specifically mean more big bucks but like… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: I would like to go you know of it's possible on my market but I would travel to within the Ohio region, to go and hear somebody. I would really love to hear somebody speak about it and just see what they're saying because I feel like I have a good grasp of what I again hospitality is and that's customer, client centric. I mean hospitality right.  I would love to hear that. So anybody out there knows hey hit us up, shoot us an email. I'd love to hear it. Sean Carp I am sure you know somebody you could direct me to so do that. But I would be curious. [Chris]: I would like to hear that too mainly because I feel this is a growing movement. I think after…after the whole Facebook debacle with peoples' privacy and big companies, the focus really for the last 6-9 months in business has really been on being human. Humanizing business, focusing on the relationship and I think that has just started to gain steam. So anybody who is doing that please let us know. [Nathan]: Amen. [Christian]: You know I would say you know for listeners who are listening to this, this would be like “Why do I care like hay are you guys talking about this”. I would say it matters because the reputation in that industry is not great. And it's not great because of the transactional, non-relational sales, salesyness of industry.  And because of that there has been huge gaps in the industry that left room for people like Zillow and Redfin to come in. Now you can you know be mown to them and whether on not become a brokerage or whatever but it's your fault. It's the industry's fault that Zillow is thriving. Because they're…they're unapologetically client centered. And here we have agents who are arguing about whether or not you should be client centric. It's like you don't get it. Like you're gonna become obsolete. [Nathan]: Because of [censored] like you we have the reputation we have. [Christian]: Yeah exactly. [Chris]: But we're talking about the agents. [Christian]: Right. In our little spheres we're trying to make a difference, you know. [Chris]: It being all about the agent is why NAR sold realtor.com.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: It being all about the agent is why the MLS has kept all the data public and Zellow exists. Agent centricity caused the problems that are there because we didn't focus on the consumer. [Christian]: Yeah exactly. [Chris]: Period. [Christian]: Exactly.  [Chris]: So if I am agent Christian… [Christian]: You're a Christian agent or agent Christian? [Chris]: No if I am an agent, Christian. [Christian]: Oh comma Christian. OK got it.  [Chris]: Comma Christian. If I am an agent and I am looking for a broker. I am building my business. I am with a broker. I don't know if I am agent centric or client centric. And I am hearing this podcast and I am like “Maybe I want to be with a client centric broker”. What impact would that have on my business?  [Christian]: I think that would have a huge impact because they are gonna be focused on your success and your repeat referral business based on the outstanding experience you provide which unfortunately a good experience is not a common thing or focused in real estate. Even…even from an agent perspective.  So I mean I think it would…Yeah we were talking about how you're differentiating yourself. Having a good client experience I guess is a general thing. You can do it in many different ways but being that…having that as a focus that is going to differentiate you more than anyone else. And you know a big part, a big key part of that is what systems you have in place in order to have clear and consisting communication because the single biggest thing you can do when it comes to, you know, servicing your client is communicating well, being available. You know to me it's basic stuff but you know when I hear you know other people's clients or friends of mine who have had bad experiences it almost always centers around “I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't get a hold of my agent you know they didn't tell me anything”. And that is a really simple problem to solve.  [Nathan]: So let me ask the questions to the broker. I mean I have my own answer if you would but so what does that look like? What's…what's an example. I don't want to use I use myself in fact which is great, right.  So I just closed on a very nice home for a client of mine that is from Brazil. They relocated here for work and they are back in Brazil doing some stuff. They needed the home painted. They needed new flooring installed and several other things. They were gonna be and actually are as we speak gone to Brazil. Who do you think is taking care of getting that painting estimates and getting the house painted, letting contractors in and getting contractors in for the floor. Finding the selections, making sure…To me that is client centric. I've gotten my check, it's already cashed. It's in the bank. But I want to make sure when they get back from Brazil that this home is ready to go. That they can move in and be seamless and I know plenty of agents who once they got that check they would have been like “You're on your own”. [Chris]: Oh yeah. [Nathan]: So to me…To me that's…that's client centric. Like I don't want to say I am going above and beyond but I feel like that's…that's what I need. I've got another client getting ready to sell their home. They're older. They're moving into a retirement community. They have to move all their furniture. They're 80 years old. Who do you think is moving it? Me. [Christian]: Your contractor filling for Home Depot? [Nathan]: Nope me. I am the one out there. My title company is actually gonna assist me and we're gonna get these people moved. Those are the things to me that there's…you can't even put a value on it. And it reaps rewards. So if you do things like that for your client you will win all day. That to me is what it looks like. I would assume to you all that's the same kind of thing or different examples.  [Christian]: Word. I want to hear what our listeners think. I want comments. I want dumpster fire. I want bickering. No I don't want that. I just want to know what people just think. [Chris]: Yeah I want the client to tell us if an agent centric is better. [laughter] No one thing is we're all on the independent side but I don't want our listeners to think that being client centric is exclusive to the independent side. I don't want them to think that you know the franchise or large firm cannot be focused on not being client centric because we have a great example of a client centric person which is Joe Rand. Who is Rand realty, metro…not metro. Better homes and gardens Rand realty out of New York. And he literally wrote the book on this. [Christian]: He's got a new one coming out that talks about it.  [Chris]: Exactly. It's coming out and it is incredible. And it's all about being good at your job. And that is what client centricity is about. As the agent it's about being good at your job and if you're with a client centric broker they are going to help you be good at your job and not just at lead generation converting and selling. But long term business building, creating a referral book that is going to help you set yourself apart like the best agents. Because the bets agents are the ones that are getting 80-90% repeat referral business because they have done the work, they have built the relationships, they have focused on the client.  And that's it. It's not…It's not exclusive to a small firm, it's not boutique, it's not independent. It's not franchise. It's about the leadership and whether or not the leadership is setting the example with the agents that…It is not OK to not focus on your clients. Or if they're setting the example that as long as you keep closing the numbers we're gonna be happy with you. That's it. [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. [Christian]: Yeah you're right. Amen.  [Nathan]: Alright and drop the mic. Mic dropped. [Chris]: I can't drop it it's on a suspended arm.  [Christian]: That's true it's suspended yeah.  [Chris]: Alright so before we wrap up for this episode any final thoughts on agent centric versus client centric and I think we're starting to beat a dead horse here but final thoughts? Nate, Christian go.  [Nathan]: It's not rocket science people. We didn't invent anything new. We're not coming up with something that's different. It's…I don't know. It's kind of the human thing. Be kind. Do what's right if that makes sense. So it should. I don't know thought the easiest things to do are the hardest things to get done so… [Christian]: Yeah I agree you know. You know it seems like it should be kind of the basics for like how we do business but unfortunately it's very rare so hopefully it becomes less rare but then we'll have to figure out some other way to distinguish myself in our brokerage so [laughter]…but I will cross that bridge when it gets there.  [Chris]: Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you guys more. I think that one thing that agents should look at if they're trying to figure out if being client centric is for them, look at every single other business industry period. And whether or not they put their clients' needs above everything else. Or if they decide that selling and then forgetting about them is the best thing. If they're…you can look at any company, any case study, any MNA they're all going to involve how the customer is treated and how the client experience is. I mean you can look at Ask Jeeves versus Google. Does anybody talk about Ask Jeeves anymore? No they don't. Google has… [Christian]: In the last 15 years.  [Chris]: Google has focused on the client and they have provided what the customer wanted. You can look at Zillow that's because we didn't do our jobs. So let's start now.  It's been a great episode. Thank you everybody for tuning in. This is re:Think Real Estate. Please go to rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter so you get a notification every time we launch a new episode. Go to iTunes leave us a 5 start review and share this. Please share with your friends, anybody in real estate that you think needs to hear it. Share the message. We'll talk to you next week.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licenced for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Welcome back for another episode of re:Think Real Estate. On today's episode, we reach back to our second episode to review our predictions for the real estate market in 2018. We discuss where we were really right and where we were less right! We also talk about our predictions for the 2019 real estate market and what we believe will happen this year. This real estate podcast is about helping brokers and agents think about how their business is run. We discuss what is working for us in our business and how our businesses are growing. If you have any questions or topics that you would like answered on the show, please email chris@sellectrealty.com. re:Think Real Estate is the best real estate podcast to follow for real estate brokers and agents looking to build their business. Tune in weekly here or wherever your podcasts are found. We are on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, and more. Please leave us a review and let us know what you think. Episode Transcript: RTRE_Ep_45 Audio length 34:58 RTRE 45-2019 Predictions for the Real Estate Market [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're here early in 2019. I am here with Christian and Nate. Guys how are we doing? [Christian]: Hi, how is it going? [Chris]: Nate is silent. [Christian]: No Nate.  [Nathan]: Good good. [Chris]: Oh he's with us. He joins us today. Last time…so last week we talked a little bit about…shoot what did we talk about last week? [laughter] Did we like…So last week we talked about… [Nathan]: Do you remember? [Christian]: We just recorded it. [Chris]: Was it in the notes? [laughter]. Smart. Thinking smart. So last week we talked about what is it gonna take to sell a home in 2019. We used the “Think Smart” acronym and we mentioned that we were gonna talk about our second episode from when we launched the podcast which was our predictions for 2018. So we wanted to talk and see what came true and what didn't. So Nate we're gonna start with you. First off let's hear what you had to say in episode 2 of last year.  [Nathan]: I am scared.  “That's the market is gonna continue to grow. Unemployment is at an all-time low. Job creation is growing gradually. Braeden wrote about that. And so I don't think we're gonna see the housing market slide. I think we're gonna see it grow very fast.  In our market here in Columbus we had an all-time low in inventory. The new builts are…you can't build them fast enough so it's…it's gonna continue to grow. The challenge I think for real estate agents is how do you get your slice of the pie and how do you do that?  The other thing I think we're gonna see is more influences upon technology or AI, but we have do we have a balance of what we do as individuals and a balance of what that AI does for us as well.” [Chris]: Alright so Nate a lot of it was…for you was that it was gonna be continued market growth, that it was gonna be pretty…Value was gonna be of great importance. Providing that value for our clients and really working on improving the communication. Tech and AI, you…having that balance to assist. What do you think? [Nathan]: I think we're still there some. I think it's gonna evolve even more in the sense of I think there was a lot of playing if you would with tech and we saw like you said when we were talking. Kelly came up with KW and several other things. I think that what we're gonna see though is from all this tech people are gonna realize again we actually provide the most value.  Again I go back to how do we blend the 2. We saw a lot of companies come in a fury all trying to get their slice of the pie and 6 months later they were an afterthought, right. So I think that we realize there's a space for it right and that's good and I am OK with that but there's still a very large space for us and what we do which is awesome.  I don't think we're gonna have that…What's that Will Smith movie. IRobot or whatever you know where everything is that way. Right so…[laughter] but there should be a large…I don't want to say “curtailing” maybe is the word. But we're gonna see some of that dial back I think a bit. And you know you are already hearing depending of what circle you run in, about you know agent value and what agents provide. I find it comical. I am not picking on Kelly, but you all are late to the party. Now it's all about “OK great we had that”. Now it's going back to being agent centric almost right. So…Interesting that you know if you're talking about tech now than you're a little late. So… [Christian]: Sure. [Nathan]: So I think you need to be focused on what you do and what you provide to your clients.  [Chris]: So I think you are right. You know last year you said that there was gonna be a balance between using technology and the agent providing value.  [Nathan]: And we're finding that out. [Chris]: And I think that…I think that that's how the year worked out. There was…I think you had all these big announcements about tech but then kind of half way through the year I think it got fueled by that whole Facebook thing…is that when the huge data breach happened. I think that a lot of people started putting more focus on the relationship, on how they're interacting with the people. [Christian]: And I would say I think on the stuff that plays for tech…but I think kind of the sexiness of it is wearing off a little bit in the sense of I think it's a little bit of a tech and automation fatigue, you know, that the trends is going back to the basics of relationships and serving your clients. Whether that's tech of whether that's man also. [Chris]: Yeah I think people are finally realizing that they're not gonna push a button and that everything is gonna be done for them. Like you could push a button and they can send an email campaign and that helps but you gotta pick up the phone. You gotta talk to people and you gotta have that one to one connection so…Christian…Nate well done I think you were spot on. I think that your predictions for 2018 came true. What do you think Christian, you think he was right? [Christian]: Unfortunately, I think he was. No I think it's good. Yeah I think it was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Yeah you're guru level there Nate. Watch out don't let it happen again, you might think you're smart. [laughter] [Nathan]: You know I am gonna keep fooling people and sooner or later they're gonna be like “You're not fooling me anymore”. [laughter] [Chris]: Well done. Alright Christian let's hear what you had to say last year. [Christian]: “I think there's gonna continue to be that tension between what you'd call the discount model tech enabled and the traditional model. So as Nate said I think there's gonna be increased need for individual agents and brokerages to define themselves and provide value outside of just…just do real estate and “I am gonna give you a good experience””. [Chris]: Alright so you were talking a lot about the push back against the traditional real estate model. What do you think? You think that came through? [Christian]: I'd say for the most part. You know I mean the…the…what we're seen with the EXP you know virtual brokerage I mean they're…I think you're saying they like acquired or gathered 16.000 new agents last year. [Chris]: Yeah they're 16k. [Christian]: You know Compass, you know, they're kind of a hybrid as far as, you know, they're not franchised but they're definitely pushing the tech in the marketing and doing things differently. They're, you know, growing like…like wild fire, wild flowers. I don't know. They're growing, they're doing good. [Chris]: You're out in the west coast you should know what a wild fire is.  [Christian]: Yeah that's true [laughter]. And you know I think we've seen, you know, big…the big growth in the indie brokerage you know scene. The rise of indie brokerages as far as people wanting to get a better consumer experience and a company and agents that are invested in the community and you know just totally gets a…you know what's kind of in the local marketing and stuff. And you know to see Zillow you know we're getting into their iByer thing and you know doubling down in the consumer. Advocating for consumers and that's their main focus and you know there's been a lot of hub hub, you know, a bunch of murmuring in the real estate space with you know “Is Zillow alienating their premiere agents or is what they're doing working of bettering stuff?”.  I mean they're willing to and have enough of market share. You know they're a brokerage, you know. they make clients as agents but they're willing to mix it up in order to continue pushing the bounds of what the consumer wants. What's best for them as opposed to the traditional franchise which isn't interested in that at all. They're interested in maintaining a status quo. And I think you're seeing they are losing market share because of it. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I agree with you there. We saw pretty much a lot of franchise agents move to the EXP model because you know they're gonna play this…spend that whole split. You know they don't want to play for the overhead. They like that whole MLM aspect of it where they can get a percentage of it back.  Now another thing that you mentioned…So I think you were right on point there. Another thing that you mentioned at the start of last year were that efficiencies with technology were gonna increase the tension on commission rates. Things that we can charge as a broker. Do you think that played out? What do you think? [Christian]: You know I don't have any numbers so you know I am not really sure but I mean I am increase hearing more about you know 100%, you know, commission models and that sort of thing. Which I mean those have been around for a while but they seem to be getting more and more popular as agents are looking to cut their costs and not have a big split.  Yeah I don't what the trend of that is gonna be because, you know, even in my book there is a give and take. If you're getting 100% commission split you're probably not getting a lot of support. And if you have a high split theoretically you'd be getting more support and have a physical brokerage. [Chris]: Theoretically. [Christian]: And access to your designated broker and all that kind of stuff but like…So I don't know it's hard to just get a blank statement saying “100% models provide you nothing” because there are some that provide just as much as a full service. I am not really sure how they do that other than maybe just being massive or having you know no broken order or no staff or something.  [Chris]: Nate what do you think? Do you think that played a part last year? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean again I am you know the indie small guy too that was with the big name. Still got a lot of strong opinions on it if you would. [Chris] : You? Nah. [Nathan]: It…It's…I go back to the word we talk about all the time. It's about value. But you know what we do now in 2018-19 is way different than what people did in 98-99. Like it's just…it's different so again you have to adapt you have to change.  You know somebody the other day was asking me you know questions about flat free models, this and the other. You know he was thinking about going to Cornecall [phonetics]. I hate the word. Everybody says it. But discount in commissions and again I can argue that all day. But I asked him… [Chris]: It's a different model. [Nathan]: Yeah right that's what I said. I said…I asked the guy and said “You pissed off at Amazon?”. And he said “Why?”. I said “You mad at Amazon?”. He said “Well no I get a great deal through them”. I said “OK don't be mad at me”.  Right it's just a different thing right. Nobody…You know everybody says that's not a fair comparison. It's just somebody did something different, right. And so I hate the word discount. Right it is what it is.  So…I think we will still see more people going to the independent side if the large big bucks brokerages can't figure out this value component. I think too many people see through what they quote on quote “offer” right now. The smart ones that is.  Now you know a new agent, there's different ways to go about it and what they offer them but I mean you call me. I just got a phone call. I know what it is about. But he's gonna try to sell me on what they can provide me. Man you better come on with a strong pitch. Like best I know. Like…Because I am not going anywhere. So I don't know… [Christian]: What…And I mean that's the…that's the tricky thing about the franchises and the value proposition is that they really are stuck in the where everyone is an independent contractor therefore we can't tell them how to do their business therefore they don't control any of the client experience for their agents. And all the tools they provide are totally optional you know and if they kind of suck because you know “Hey we have our own proprietary internal CRM or home search site or app” Or whatever. They're probably gonna be terrible and part of the reason you're paying so much is because you spend all these money to cut some bill some part stuff that can't compete with Zillow or a dedicated third party CRM, you know.  [Nathan]: It keep swinging at home runs. [laughter] [Christian]: I suppose indie brokerages which their focus is gonna be agent support, standardized culture and processes and training… [Chris]: We might have a bias [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean we don't…that is…that's what I have seen but universally that's what I see. I look at any of the franchise around here and the client experience and value proposition is all over the place as opposed to indie brokerages where that is their bread and butter of the “This is the value we provide. People want to be here because of blah blah blah blah blah”. You know and somebody goes to franchise the only value proposition I hear is “Well you get the name”. And I am like “That's not value proposition.”. Like… [Nathan]: If somebody comes to me again with “Hey once you've reached the third level…”I…If I wanted to be a recruiter guess what I would have been? I would have been a recorder. Like that's just not what…That's an MLN to me and you know and sorry if that bothers you. Actually no I am not sorry if that offends you. I am who I am. But…[laughter] getting to the third level whatever it is it has 0 concern for me. [Chris]: Every day I have somebody from EXP either friend me, send me a Facebook message, a LinkedIn request. “Hey what do you think is gonna happen with the market next year?” It's like they're pitching this. They study it. They train on it. [Christian]: I love it when they don't do their research and they're just pitching the brokerage owner. ”Hey you wanna come over”. Like “Yeah you don't know who you're talking to do you?”. [Chris]: There's a lot of averages. Anyway. Back to your predictions Christian I think that you know when you talked about the efficiencies with tech putting tension on the percentage I don't think you were off. But I think that what ended up putting more tension on it was how much value somebody can bring to the table.  I don't think it was tech. I don't think it was really tech putting the pressure on it. I think it ended up for 2018 really being how much value was brought in by the individual agent. Were they doing the things they were doing like the give back programs? And the high quality photos and met report? I think that ended up playing a huge role also. Tech to the stand point that you know like you mentioned if they're heavily leveraged, if they have lots of debt, they have to charge much more. I think you were right there but not necessarily on the bottom line percentage. [Christian]: The reason percentage. [Chris]: Yeah. Yeah I think in a…I think the broader reason ended up being value. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: And Nate after what you said I gotta presume that you agree with that? [Nathan]: Yes. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright so last but not least let's hear what I had to say last year. Take it with a grain of salt.  “We've had a lot of tech. Like the last 3 years in real estate it's been like nothing but tech. It's “Oh what's your website, what's your SEO what's your…you know how are you getting your leads? Are you doing you know the big 4 or you doing like predictive analytics now?” I think we're gonna see a lot of step back in those services from a lot of agents. And I think there's gonna be a big push as a lot of these suburbs bring in an urban feel as they're being redeveloped. I know we're experiencing a lot of that in Georgie.  I think we're gonna see a lot of agents really refocus on being hyper local. I think it's gonna be a lot of tech in the support and the systems and how they're able to make the transaction smooth but I don't see these big companies that are coming in trying to do disruption. I don't think we're gonna have a lot of focus on that”.  Alright so I also thought that there was gonna be a lot of tech. That there was gonna be a lot in the leads SEO, Zillow and predictive analytics which I think we saw a lot in that field. Right guys? [Christian]: Yeah. Yeah I mean there's certain things that you know…I think that you…I don't think…[background noise]. [Chris]: Stop doing that. It kills your mic [laughter]. [Christian]: I don't think…Oh does it. OK sorry… [Chris]: Yeah [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah so I can assure things that aren't really ready for prime time. Like I can't speak push on like AI or…you know Alexa Skills and that sort of thing you know they're very rudimentary but there's been a lot of focus on them you know. So we'll see that grows in importance in 2019. [Nathan]: I don't think it's gonna grow really honestly. I think we're kind of out of…hat do you call it. Out of very flat. I think people are still like...There's a lot of discovery there has to be done with that stuff and I think we are a long way out before it really needs to concern any of us. But I could be wrong. [Chris]: Well tech played a big part. Now we have the whole conversation about the wrestle or the…the standardized data feeds that the MLS has put out. Here is a lot of pressure on the MLS to move to an API format which would pretty much make the IDX obsolete.  So there was a ton of work in the tech sector for 2018 but also probably my biggest prediction for last year is that we are gonna start seeing a lot of redeveloped neighborhoods. Lot of small town down town communities start urbanizing. Start feeling that…that kind of multiuse feel and that along with that we're gonna start seeing an increase hyper locality with how the agents operate. I think that is where a lot of independent broker rise is coming from. Small brokerages operating on a very hyper local kind of manner. Really owing the neighborhood, owning the town, owning the down town. Are you guys seeing that? [Christian]: Yeah I mean definitively in kind of the urban area Seattle even you know even the cities do some pretty big zoning changes to increase density in the loafer or in the ADUs and putting in a new light rail and all sorts of changes for you know a denser urban core. So yeah. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? You're muted. [Nathan]: I just lost my whole train of thought when it got muted. [Chris]: Nate what are you seeing in Ohio? [Nathan]: You know what I see in Ohio and I will probably get slammed for this. We're a busy market but what I see in Ohio is we're always a day late and a dollar short or whatever it is. But we're late to the party. I don't know where I am going with this right now so just edit this out. My whole train it's… [Christian]: But there's been… [Nathan]: My whole train of thought just went sideways because I had a kid walk in the room. [Chris]: So we're talking about the urbanization of downtown areas in the suburbs. So the hyper locality of agents about really owning that. What do you think are you seeing that in Ohio? [Nathan]: Here we go. Yeah you are seeing some hyper locality. There's, you know, I could sit here and name quite a few agents off here real quick that specialize in certain areas. Again I still argue you don't have to. Does it help? Yeah I mean why…why go and have this wide area that you're gonna cover such as myself. I go everywhere. It can be a pain. When you can do just as well on a small hyper local area that has value.  I think you're getting push back thought now form consumers a little bit because it…you have the hyper locality but you also have the gentrification of neighborhood that is pushing on a whole other segment that is causing a whole other problem that I could talk about for days. So there's good and bad in it with both I guess. So…But you are definitely seeing it here. [Chris]: Yeah now you're starting to see like brokerages really taking advantage of that becoming that hyper local brokerage, that downtown brokerage?  [Nathan]: From the perspective of teams yes but not a brokerage like…You know downtown say you want to be in a certain area of the short north or what not here. VNR, View Tech and Rough you know like boom. But automatically they come to mind. Right? If I go down to an area called Old Oaks than I think like Jim Ross. He was…left Key Realty to just go to Remax I think. So again it's not necessarily the brokerage, it's the individuals or the team that is down in that area. [Chris]: Excellent. Alright so I don't know. What do you guys think? Do you think we were on point? Do you think we got 2018 right?  [Christian]: I think we're about 85% accurate. [Chris]: 85% accurate. [Christian]: Or maybe that's me. Nate was pretty spot on. [Chris]: Nate…Nate I think was dead on. [Nathan]: I feel that I mean yeah I feel good about what I said then. I feel good about what I say now. But I don't know looking at 2019 I think we're gonna see…what's the proper word. Regression? Is that right? [Chris]: Well let's talk about that. Let's talk about what we're gonna see for 2019. Where do you think we're gonna see regression in?  [Nathan]: I think people have over complicated what we do. And I think we're gonna see a “back to basics” kind of mentality. Which is upfront, relationship driven, client focused mentality for the successful real estate agent.  Now I want to be very specific. I want to say the ones that are successful I think really…You know when I say successful I mean long term but I think we're gonna see a heavier focus on this relationship building, you know not kind of hit it and quit it mentality. Or letting AI do the work for them. Because they realize they have automated everything they do. They have lost touch with those people. I mean your word for 2019 is relationships. Right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: So again I don't…You know some of us can see the wiring on the wall so I think we're gonna see that we're gonna go back to basics. That's what I'll call it. Back to basics in what we do. AI is a good thing. The technology is a good thing but let's get back to the core of who we are.  Joe Rand has got that new book coming out. I am telling you he even speaks about it. I guess I can say that. He talks about it. We're gonna go back to basics so… [Christian]: Thank you Nate you stole my thunder. I was gonna say focus on relationships and client experience. So yeah there you go there's my 2 sense. [laughter] [Chris]: Alright well Christian what else do you think is gonna happen in 2019? Let's take your predictions now outside of you agree with Nate. Great. What's gonna happen either market or interests, broker level? What do you think? [Christian]: Sure. I mean I think the markets, the writings on the wall I don't think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna fully flip to a balance to a buyers' market. But I do think the silage market is gonna severely cool.  You know like here in Seattle people are freaking out because, you know, the last half of year it you know home values have dropped 11%. But a year of a year it's still up 2 %. So I think we're start seeing the normal umbers of a healthy market which are gonna be 2-4% increase over a year and not 40% for the last 5 years which is what Seattle has seen. So… [Chris]: Yeah no biggie. [Christian]: So I think it's gonna…I don't think it's gonna entirely shift. I think…you know or level out. I think it's gonna continue going up in a much more moderate. [Chris]: I think that…I think that you're probably on point there and that can probably speak in the nation as a whole. I think that for Atlanta we're probably gonna see something similar. Continued growth, but growth at a much slower rate. I think that our growth rate is probably gonna be cut in half at best and probably by 90% at worst. But we're still gonna grow. We've got too much infrastructure that is booming. We've got extreme demands for jobs here. So as long as that stays steady I think we're looking at something similar.  So Nate you kind of covered what your predictions are for interacting with clients.  Christian you kind of covered what we can expect for 2019 for the market.  So I guess that leaves the broker level. What we can expect for brokerages. So for 2019 I think we're gonna see a divergence in how…what kind of brokerages take off. And I think it's gonna go really 1 of 3 ways and we're gonna see a lot of movement in 3 different directions.  1 is you're gonna see the Redfin partner agents and Redfin agents growing exponentially. I think there's gonna be a lot of growth on that bottom sector of low commission, kind of higher quality service but low commission. So there's gonna be that movement.  Than I think on the other side you're gonna see agents moving towards very high tech companies. That's gonna be your Compass. And your EXP. You're gonna have that “We want high tech and we want low interaction”. They're gonna be flocking from the traditional franchise model.  And I think the third direction that they're gonna be moving into is the independent boutique. We're gonna see a rise of boutiques that are very…cultured centric. You're gonna see people who get together and the culture is the most important part. We're gonna see a lot of rise from that. I think that you can expect a lot of brokerages across the nation that are maybe 10, 20, 30 agents right now to probably double or triple their numbers so long as they can keep the management and the culture intact as they grow. And that's gonna be one of the hardest things to do that that segment is gonna have to kind of deal with and overcome.  But I think that we're gonna have those 3 movements. Away from franchise into high tech, low touch into the low discount model high volume and then the independent movement. [Christian]: Interesting. Can I give a little push back into one of those? [Chris]: Please do. [Christian]: I think, I could be totally wrong. I usually am wrong. That the… [Chris]: No you're 85%. [laughter] [Christian]: I am 85%. I think…I think that the discount brokerage model I think it's…we're not gonna see as much growth in that. I think that the word is starting to get out that you know Redfin is not so great. That the experience isn't so great. The outcome isn't so great.  At least that is what I have seen here. You know I have had a couple of…a couple of you know listing appointment that were like “I never list with Redfin”. You know. And because of that I think if you understand value and you maybe talk with people that use them you know word gets out that you know yeah you save a percentage or 2 but at what cost? [Chris]: Yeah and here's the reason… [Nathan]: For clarity let me ask you a question. List with Redfin or list with a Redfin partner agent? Because they're different things. [Chris]: Well hang on. [Christian]: I am saying the model.  [Chris]: Oh boy. [Nathan]: Oh no you can't do that, you gotta break it down. [Christian]: Well I am saying the model in the sense that like if your primary value proposition as a brokerage is more cheap that comes at a cost. And I think the word is starting to get out that discount brokerages by in large provide an inferior experience, results, whatever.  Now I mean obviously that depends a great deal on the agents but if your model is you know you've got one listing agent for an entire zip code of you know a million people there's not gonna be a high touch good quality experience there you know.  [Chris]: Wow and here's the… [Christian]: You know and even Redfin is shifting greatly away from the original model to not being that much different than the conventional brokerage.  [Chris]: Yeah here's the reason why I think that that is gonna be one of the moves.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: We have 1.4 something million realtors. We're almost back to 2008 levels of the number of realtors. We're gonna be switching to a market where agents don't understand how to deal with properties that have been marketed long. So they…the time on market is gonna increase. It's gonna be a lot of realtors that have not had to really work like hard to buy or sell a house. You know for the buyers agent their skill set is turn a nob and open a door. For the seller skill set the selling agent you know their job is to put the property on an MLS and let it sell. They haven't had to challenge their skills.  So I think that when this market shifts we're gonna loose agents. They're gonna leave the industry. But I think that a lot of those agents may move to a higher volume lower skill set style. Not to say that Nathan is lower skill set but to a discount model of where they're able to do a lot more business at a lot lower rate. Just because they don't have that background to be able to go out and compete in the market with agents that are on a higher skill set.  Now Nate that's nothing against you because you operate at a very high skill set. And your marketing is at a very high quality. But there are agents out there that do not. So… [Christian]: Yeah but there's only so much room for them. You know Redfin is only gonna hire so many people. You know. It can't be like “I can't make it as an independent contract” or something.  [Chris]: Yeah not just Redfin. [Christian]: Yeah that's a big one yeah. [Chris]: But there are plenty of regional brokers. There are plenty of regional low cap brokerages that are not gonna force an agent into charging whatever the broker's set rate is and they can go and charge whatever they want to charge. They're gonna move in that direction. They're gonna move to where they're competing on price not on skillset. So…so… [Christian]: Oh sure I can see that. Yeah. [Chris]: So I am mending my predictions for 2019. It is not specifically to Redfin or Redfin-like companies but to companies where the broker is more lenient on what they can charge. Where they can set their own rate and they're gonna compete on value. OK. [Christian]: OK I can see that. My hang up was kind of the Redfin model you know. [Chris]: Got it. Got it. So nothing against Redfin. Great company. Very high productive employee model company. [Christian]: There's gonna be a reputation where individual agents in standard franchise aren't per se. So... [Chris]: Well they're also extremely productive because their salary. Unless they're partner agents but the Redfin agents that are with Redfin corporate, their salary. So they are… So recapping again for 2019 Nate what is happening? [Nathan]: We'll see back to basics from a realtor perspective, agent perspective. We're gonna see an interest rate bump. And we'll see some market correction. We're not gonna have crazy like last year which was great but I think we're gonna see some stabilization which is…which is fine by me. [Chris]: Back to basics, relationships, more of a balanced market. Christian what's your recap? What's happening this year? [Christian]: Yeah I think the market is gonna be slowing down but not necessarily becoming byers market. It's just gonna be a slow down on the increase in values. We're seeing the economy like it used to be good and inventory is still rather limited but we're plenty folding, it has been this whole last year. [Chris]: 2019 you've got our predictions. The word…my word is relationship for the year. I think that Nate is right on point with that. If you haven't go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe. Get our updates every time a new episode is launched. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We're now well into 2019. Let's kick some butt. Take care.  [music] Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H whose music can be explored and licenced for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Dear hurting and struggling Christian: You're as loved by God as the Jesus-denying Peter, the murderer-adulterer David, & the thrice holy, perfect God-man--Jesus Christ.

Dear hurting and struggling Christian: You're as loved by God as the Jesus-denying Peter, the murderer-adulterer David, & the thrice holy, perfect God-man--Jesus Christ.

It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! (Galatians 4:18-19 ESV) Who do you think is better off spiritually: a person stuck in Buddhism; an atheist; or a church-going, rule following Christian? You might be tempted to create a scale. On one end are the people without any kind of spiritual beliefs, and on the other end is the card-carrying Christian (and somewhere in-between is the "spiritual" person). On the other hand, we might think it's better to have nothing than to have the wrong thing. However we arrange it, I’d like to challenge you to shake up your thinking. In our upcoming passage, Paul challenges the Galatians with the thought that they are in imminent danger of worshiping the wrong thing, themselves. This week, we will explore Galatians 4:12-20. I’d encourage you to take some time to read through the passage. Listen to Paul’s personal appeal. Through it I hope we will not only understand more of the gospel, but pick up Paul’s passion for people around him to be shaped by Christ.

By Robert Wright-Stasko San Diego Comic Con 2015 is right around the corner.  I am expecting that this year, just like the last several years, there will be some Christians with poorly thought out slogans slapped onto protest signs, with big bullhorns causing brouhaha for comic book fans, cosplayers, and anyone else at the convention trying to have an enjoyable week.  I question these protesters; is this the most effective way to get your message across? More to the point, is cosplaying and other such activities even worth protesting? This blog post will answer these questions. In the process, I suggest that we, as Christians, can learn from cosplayers how we can live out some important illustrations in the Bible that will help us follow Jesus Christ more effectively, and therefore, become more Christ-like ourselves. But first, let’s look at some of the protests that have already happened at SDCC. A History of Protest The first major protest (in terms of press coverage) was at the 2010 SDCC.  The Westboro Baptist Church had sent just a few people, but they did quadruple duty holding as many as four signs each.[1] All of these had the standard, hatemongering slogans that Fred Phelps’ church usually employs at US soldiers’ funerals like, “God hates you,” “God hates fags,” and other deplorable sayings. They stated that their main objection was that being a comic book fan was akin to idolatry,[2] but all those other hate issues got muddled up into their message as well. According to several accounts,[3] these protesters were severely outnumbered by the many comic fans who came prepared with their own signs which they hastily cobbled together (I don’t blame them for their hurriedness, their main concern was probably getting their costumes ready in time to stand in line all day for Hall H).  Some were actually pretty clever, like “Galactus is Nigh” and “God Hates Jedi” brandished by a Star Trek cosplayer. Depending on which account you read, the reaction was either good natured with a few exceptions or pretty heated.  Since that year, you can search the internet to find articles where other conservative Christian groups try to get in on the game.  It seems to be a different group each year.[4]  In 2013, an atheist named Brian organized his own protest, with signs as fancy as the conservatives’ were.  But Brian makes a good point when he says, “Atheists don’t show up a churches and try to convince people that their story is nothing more than a story.”[5] Still that did not dissuade other protesters from showing up last year to the 2014 SDCC, yelling at people for not only idolatry, but slinging sexist and homophobic slurs out into the crowd.[6] But Bleeding Cool News did do a well-balanced report on two protesters at the 2014 SDCC who were not so polarized, and both seemed to be saying things that were not antagonistic. Joe Gaona was there not to protest, but to try to spread the Gospel.  Shannon Dove was there to spread awareness for an LGBTQ rights advocates group called Canvass for a Cause.  Both were Christian.[7]  Yet, because of the tactics used (mainly signs and bullhorns) I seriously doubt that any kind of mutual understanding, or even a simple understanding of the opposing viewpoint, was reached. A Personal Note on Protesting While the main focus here is on the effectiveness of protesting, something has to be said about the underlying issue at the heart of these protests, and it is the gay rights issue. As you can see from the history of the SDCC protests, it tends to surface no matter what the protesters might actually be trying to say. The Christian church in America is right now polarized over this matter. Many church denominations have split up or formed new denominations because people cannot agree.  This isn’t the first time the church has splintered over disagreements.  In America, the issue of slavery caused many fractures in the 1800’s,[8] as well as speaking in tongues (the God gifted ability to speak in another language).[9]  But the last time an issue caused this kind of protest was the abortion debate.  This is still a hot topic, but not as much as it was a few decades ago.[10]  I recently graduated from a Christian university, and I would commute once a week to attend my classes there while I was a student.  Every now and again, on my drive into school, I would spy one or two, sometimes half a dozen people with protest signs in front of the Planned Parenthood across the street from the main campus.  I didn’t think much of it, until I started pondering, “Why did Planned Parenthood decide to set up shop across the street from a Christian school?”  Please understand, the university taught very good theology that was grounded in Scripture without adding conservative or fundamentalist dogma to it. It gave me very practical insights into demonstrating the love of Christ in a real way while doing ministry for his church.  It even held a seminar where two prominent gay Christian theologians debated the issue of gay marriage in the church. This is a Christ centered, yet forward thinking school.   But that question still ate away at me.  In its student code of conduct, the university states that sexual activity is solely reserved for marriage. While this is certainly an ideal, it is more often now days not the reality. I started to imagine a young woman and young man from a church background, starting classes at this school, then meeting one another and falling in love.  They give in to that love and find out a baby is on the way. Then to avoid anger or embarrassment from their conservative families or even expulsion from the school, they decide to visit the Planned Parenthood across the street.  I imagined that they would sneak in the back entrance while their parents were busy toting protest signs and yelling at cars on the street through their bullhorn. Instead of seeking love and forgiveness, knowing they would probably find none, the students compound their guilt by aborting their unborn child.  Whether or not you agree with abortion or condemn it, the fact remains that it is hard to live with the pain of loss and regret, always thinking “what if?”  This is when I first started thinking, “There must be a better way.” Whether the issue is abortion, gay rights, or dressing up like a superhero, the proper way of disagreeing or debating is not with signs and bullhorns.  The sign serves as a barrier between the protester and the people who are being protested against.  The bullhorn magnifies what the protester is saying while drowning out the response of everyone else.  It is in effect saying, “I don’t care what you have to say, I am here to tell you that you are wrong.”  As I said earlier, it doesn’t matter if you are actually saying something reasonable, once you don the posture of a protester, the non-verbal communication trumps any verbal communication.  And because of the first example that was given at the SDCC by the Westborough Baptists, all that is communicated then is hate. An Alternative to Protesting So what is the better way? How do we communicate the truth of Jesus if signs and bullhorns produce the opposite result of that which we are seeking? Our prime example should be that of Jesus.  Matthew 4:17 tells us that after Jesus temptation in the wilderness and his return to Galilee, that “From that time on Jesus began to preach, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.’” Most of us get the mental image (probably from too many bad Jesus movies) that he is standing on the corner or walking down the street, shouting this randomly to passing onlookers. I don’t think this is the case.  In context of the whole chapter, Matthew seems to be giving us a summary of Jesus overall message in this verse.  In movie terms, you could say this verse sets up the second act, letting us know what is going to happen.  Immediately after verse 4:17, we see Jesus talking to Peter and Andrew, asking them to follow him.  Then verse 23 says, “Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness among the people.”  Jesus is not some crazed street preacher like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in Stephen King’s The Stand. Here is a man engaging with individuals, teaching in appropriate places, and doing so with the power and authority to back up his words through miraculous healing.  Therefore, if Jesus is our prime example we should be more like him, forming relationships with people instead rallying against them, teaching the good news one on one rather than blaring it through a bullhorn. So if our goal is being more like Jesus, how do we achieve that end?  What is the process we should take to be like Jesus? The answer, which both Christian theologians and Bible both agree, is through cosplay. “Hold on a minute,” you may be saying.  “What do mean, the Bible says we should cosplay in order to be more like Jesus?”  Well, C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, two prominent Christian theologians, as well as the apostle Paul attest to this. There are very practical lessons for Christians to learn through the physical and spiritual act of cosplay.  By engaging our imaginations, and making a little bit of fantasy a reality, we can learn how to make Christ’s love a reality as well. Christ-like Cosplay Even though the term “cosplay” may be a recent invention, C.S. Lewis spends a whole chapter entitled “Let’s Pretend” of his book Mere Christianity encouraging us to do just that.  He starts off by asking the reader to think deeply about a simple prayer Christians use, which begins “Our Father.”  With those two simple words, we put ourselves in the place of his son, essentially cosplaying as a child of God. Now, the moment you realise ‘Here I am, dressing up as Christ,’ it is extremely likely that you will see at once some way in which at that very moment the pretence could be made less of a pretence and more of a reality. You will find several things going on in your mind which would not be going on there if you were really a son of God. Well, stop them. Or you may realise that, instead of saying your prayers, you ought to be downstairs writing a letter, or helping your wife to wash-up. Well, go and do it. You see what is happening. The Christ Himself, the Son of God who is man (just like you) and God (just like His Father) is actually at your side and is already at that moment beginning to turn your pretence into a reality.[11]  We see here the process that happens when we dress up as Christ.  Anyone who has cosplayed understands this process very well.  Lewis, of course, is talking about a spiritual costuming, but when we cosplay physically, much of the same process happens.             It has to be said that cosplay is a serious endeavor, way beyond a simple hobby like building models or collecting coins and seriously more intense than merely putting on a store bought costume for Halloween. A conjunction of the words “costume player,” cosplay is a noun, describing the activity of assuming the costume and personality of a character.  The word is also a verb, as in “Do you cosplay?” The cosplayer takes great pride in manufacturing and assembling their own costume. Of course, for more intricate builds, like the Stormtroopers in the 501st group, expert cosplayers handcraft special elements to help with other’s costumes.  In the many sci-fi, comic book, and movie conventions that happen all around the world, cosplay contests are judged based not only on the accuracy of the costume, but in the ability of the cosplayer to inhabit the character that they are dressing up as.             For example, in 2013 my kids and I attended the Akron Comicon.  My oldest and youngest boys dressed up like playable characters from the video game Team Fortress 2. I helped them shop for the elements they needed at various second hand shops and dollar stores.  At the same time I was putting the finishing touches on my 4th Doctor outfit from the seminal sci-fi show, Doctor Who.  Fans of the show will recognize that this regeneration of the Doctor had a very long and distinctively colored scarf, which took my sister three years to knit together for me. At the convention, I put on the Doctor, much in the same way that Lewis says we should put on Christ. I adopted his voice and mannerisms as much as I could, even offering people real, imported Jelly Babies.  In a way, I really became a little more like him.             Going through this process, cosplaying as the Doctor, really helped me to cosplay as Jesus.  Because I have seen every episode of Doctor Who (yes, all 813!) I was able to really imagine myself as the Doctor. I imagined what it would be like to be the cleverest being in the room, to travel through time and space defeating evil with dry wit and a toothy smile.  I thought of the story “The Genesis of the Daleks” where he had the chance to wipe out the greatest evil in the universe by touching two wires together, but refusing because it was not his place to play God. “What about all of the races that ended their fighting and joined together as allies to fight a common foe?” he asked himself.  That’s a kind of person I want to be.             Jesus Christ is also the kind of person I want to be.  He suffered a similar dilemma in the Garden of Gethsemane.  He prayed to his Father knowing that he would be betrayed by a close friend, arrested, then physically and mentally abused, and at last to be tortured to death while spiritually suffering the wrath of God for the sins of all humanity.  Matthew 26:39 says, “He fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’”  He faced a more awful choice than the Doctor, to save a whole race at a tremendous personal cost or to let them be destroyed by their own devices.  As much as I admire the Doctor, I love Jesus for the choice he made, to follow his Father’s will and save us all! Salvation is in the Comic Books             I can identify with the Doctor and I can identify with Jesus because I am familiar with their stories.  I mentioned earlier that I have seen every single episode of Doctor Who. Much like reading the entire Bible, this is no small feat.  The Bible is best read in small bits, every day a little more, in order to ponder and internalize the wisdom, commands, stories, and lessons it offers to us.  Then, one can go back and maybe read a whole book in one sitting to gather the context and reach a greater understanding. In the same way, I took in Doctor Who a little at a time.  Over the course of nearly two and a half years I watched one 25 minute episode per day, about 5 or 6 days a week.  Even the lost episodes, I caught the excellent Loose Cannon reconstructions on YouTube.             Now, I can hear some people chiding me already: “You call yourself a Christian? You should be reading your Bible every day instead of spending so much of your time on that nonsense!”  I whole heartedly disagree, at least with the last part of that statement.  I do read my Bible every day, but I watch science fiction too.  Understanding the mythology and continuity of stories like Doctor Who, Star Trek, and Star Wars actually helps me understand the Bible better.  G.K Chesterton explains this in his book Orthodoxy.             Orthodoxy is Chesterton’s follow-up to Heretics, a book which criticizes the philosophies of the day which run contrary to Christian faith.  Much like Lewis’ Mere Christianity, Orthodoxy is an apologetic work defending Christian theology. Chesterton’s take on it is “an explanation, not of whether the Christian Faith can be believed, but of how he personally has come to believe it.”[12] He begins his chapter called, “The Ethics of Elfland” by recalling how old men would tell him as a child to get his head out of the clouds and deal with reality. Chesterton claims these men are all liars! For fairy tales and similar stories help us to understand the workings of our social world better than a dry recording of political events can give us. “It is quite easy to see why a legend is treated, and ought to be treated, more respectfully than a book of history. The legend is generally made by the majority of people in the village, who are sane. The book is generally written by the one man in the village who is mad.”[13]             He goes on to decry the men of strict science who try to find ultimate meaning in simple cause and effect. But the scientific men do muddle their heads, until they imagine a necessary mental connection between an apple leaving the tree and an apple reaching the ground. They do really talk as if they had found not only a set of marvellous facts, but a truth connecting those facts. They do talk as if the connection of two strange things physically connected them philosophically. They feel that because one incomprehensible thing constantly follows another incomprehensible thing the two together somehow make up a comprehensible thing. Two black riddles make a white answer.[14]  I feel that Fundamental Christianity has fallen into this trap as well, reading the Bible as a simple stream of facts as one would read information out of a newspaper.  They miss out on the poetry, the fables (which we call parables in the Bible) and the fantastic stories which tell us an underlying truth about God’s personality or about ours.[15]  These things become events which happened at another place in another time to somebody else. All that is left are God’s commands, which either you follow or you don’t. And if you don’t follow every single one, someone is going to let you know, shouting at you as you walk down the street in your Superman costume.             We miss out on the deep truths God wishes to teach us in the Bible if we forget how to read stories in a critical and literary fashion. Chesterton is keenly aware of this fact.  His own understanding of the world was helped, and not hindered, by reading fairy tales, myths, and legends. “In the fairy tale an incomprehensible happiness rests upon an incomprehensible condition. A box is opened, and all evils fly out. A word is forgotten, and cities perish. A lamp is lit, and love flies away. A flower is plucked, and human lives are forfeited. An apple is eaten, and the hope of God is gone.”[16] Being Super Can Help You Be Holy It can easily be said that there are modern myths, the fairy tales of our time are written in the comic books, and the legends of the 21st century are played out on the silver screen.  Understanding these science fiction tales and fantasy stories help us get a grip on the reality we have to face every day.  That person walking down the street to SDCC in the Superman costume knows full well of how Superman died (then came back to life!) fighting Doomsday in an effort to save his beloved Metropolis.  The fan in the Spiderman costume knows of the sacrifice Spidey had to make, trying to save both his girlfriend and a street car full of people as the Green Goblin dropped them both off of a bridge. The man in the Iron Man armor knows how Tony Stark found that selfless core in his being to save New York by guiding a bomb through a space-time portal at the end of the first Avengers movie.             All of these heroes have something in them that we admire. They are willing to die in order to save others. That is a trait that we as humans have always found to be noble.  Who, then, is nobler than Jesus Christ? He was willing to die for every single last one of us. This is a person we should dress up as, just like Lewis said we should.  But Lewis was not the first to suggest this.  Indeed, he says, “we begin to see what it is that the New Testament is always talking about. It talks about Christians `being born again’; it talks about them ‘putting on Christ’; about Christ ‘being formed in us’; about our coming to ‘have the mind of Christ’.”[17] Of the many verses that Lewis alludes to here, draw your attention to “putting on Christ” as in Romans 13:12b-14.  “Let us then lay aside the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us live honorably as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. Instead, put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.”[18] Lewis talked about us being like children of God when we say “Our Father,” he probably got the notion from reading Galatians 3:26-27. “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”[19]  Paul further encourages such spiritual cosplay when he says in 1 Corinthians 11:1 to “Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.”[20] Paul is already in on the game.  More proof is in Colossians 3:12 “Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.”[21] These are some of the qualities of Jesus’ personality, which we acquire when his Holy Spirit lives in us, as related in Galatians 5:22-25.  Ephesians 5:1-2, Philippians 2:5, the list goes on. The Bible is very clear that we should imitate Jesus. Cosplay for Christ                 So now we see that, for Christians, protesting is the very opposite thing that Christ has called us to do.  It is the most ineffective way to dialogue because it is one-sided communication, and the non-verbal posture of protesting is in its very nature combative and confrontational. Instead of fighting with cosplayers and other comic book fans at this year’s SDCC, Christians should burn their protest signs, throw their bullhorns on the bonfire, and join them.  Cosplaying as superheroes helps us to cosplay as our ultimate hero, Jesus Christ.  Reading, watching, and interacting with the stories of our favorite comic book, television, and movie characters is a worthy endeavor. It is an endeavor that helps us to read and understand the story of the Bible so we can understand God’s character, then our character changes to be more like his.             And this is not an endeavor we do alone. Lewis concludes his take on cosplay by revealing that it is not only we who are doing the pretending.  If we try to be like Christ, putting our full faith and trust in Him, then God the Father pretends that we are Jesus as well. “God looks at you as if you were a little Christ: Christ stands beside you to turn you into one. I daresay this idea of a divine make-believe sounds rather strange at first. But, is it so strange really?”[22] In theological terms, this is the very definition of substitutionary atonement. I could write another ten pages explaining theological concept, or you cosplay as Christ and experience it for yourself.   In the pictures of protest and counter-protest signs on the websites documenting all the furor of SDCC’s past, I noticed one photo of a man literally dressed like Jesus.[23]  His cosplay is excellent; he’s the Buddy Christ from Kevin Smith’s Dogma but he also looks like he stepped out of an Orthodox Church icon, halo and all.  He is pointing to a sign that says, “God loves everybody.” I think he gets it.  References Abraham, Zennie. 2014. Jesus Freaks Protest San Diego Comic Con Goers SDCC 2014. 08 02. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.zennie62blog.com/2014/08/02/jesus-freaks-protest-san-diego-comic-con-goers/. Anti-Defamation League. 2012. Anti-Abortion Violence: America's Forgotten Terrorism. 09 04. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/anti-abortion-violence-americas-forgotten-terrorism- Calhoun, Bob. 2010. Comic-Con report: Geeks vs. fundamentalist Christians. 07 23. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.salon.com/2010/07/23/comic_con_christian_protesters_phelps_open2010/. Chesterton, G.K. 2009-12-15. The Chesterton Reader: 21 Works in One Volume (Unexpurgated Edition) . Halcyon Classics. Halcyon Press Ltd. Corrigan, John, and Winthrop S. Hudson. 2004. Religion in America. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Pearson Education Inc. Goldman, Tom. 2010. Church Protesting San Diego Comic-Com for "Idol Worship". 07 10. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.210831-Church-Protesting-San-Diego-Comic-Con-For-Idol-Worship. Johnston, Rich. 2014. Jesus, Satan, Godzilla And Galactus - The Protesters At San Diego Comic Con. 07 26. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/07/26/jesus-satan-godzilla-and-galactus-the-protesters-at-san-diego-comic-con/. Khoun, Andy. 2012. Galactus is Nigh: CHristians Protest Comic-Con Again [SDCC 2012]. 07 15. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://comicsalliance.com/galactus-is-nigh-christians-protest-comic-con-again-sdcc-2012/. Kim, Tony B. 2011. Westboro Baptist Church vs Comic Con. 06 20. Accessed 06 12, 2015. https://crazy4comiccon.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/westboro-baptist-church-vs-comic-con/. Lewis, C.S. 2002. The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics. New York, NY: Harper Collins. Lobe, Paul. 2013. Atheists protest at Comic Con. 07 27. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/2013/07/27/atheists-protest-at-comic-con/. Pahl, Michael W. 2011. The Beginning and the End: Rereading Genesis's Stories and Revelation's Visions. Kindle Edition. Eugene, OR: Cascade Books.     [1] Calhoun, Bob. 2010. Comic-Con report: Geeks vs. fundamentalist Christians. 07 23. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.salon.com/2010/07/23/comic_con_christian_protesters_phelps_open2010/. [2] Goldman, Tom. 2010. Church Protesting San Diego Comic-Com for "Idol Worship". 07 10. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.210831-Church-Protesting-San-Diego-Comic-Con-For-Idol-Worship. [3] Kim, Tony B. 2011. Westboro Baptist Church vs Comic Con. 06 20. Accessed 06 12, 2015. https://crazy4comiccon.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/westboro-baptist-church-vs-comic-con/. [4] Khoun, Andy. 2012. Galactus is Nigh: CHristians Protest Comic-Con Again [SDCC 2012]. 07 15. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://comicsalliance.com/galactus-is-nigh-christians-protest-comic-con-again-sdcc-2012/ [5] Lobe, Paul. 2013. Atheists protest at Comic Con. 07 27. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/2013/07/27/atheists-protest-at-comic-con/. [6] Abraham, Zennie. 2014. Jesus Freaks Protest San Diego Comic Con Goers SDCC 2014. 08 02. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.zennie62blog.com/2014/08/02/jesus-freaks-protest-san-diego-comic-con-goers/. [7] Johnston, Rich. 2014. Jesus, Satan, Godzilla And Galactus - The Protesters At San Diego Comic Con. 07 26. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/07/26/jesus-satan-godzilla-and-galactus-the-protesters-at-san-diego-comic-con/. [8] Corrigan, John, and Winthrop S. Hudson. 2004. Religion in America. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey: Pearson Education Inc. Pgs. 217-20. [9] Ibid., pgs. 355-60 [10] Anti-Defamation League. 2012. Anti-Abortion Violence: America's Forgotten Terrorism. 09 04. Accessed 06 12, 2015. http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/anti-abortion-violence-americas-forgotten-terrorism- [11] Lewis, C.S. 2002. The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics. New York, NY: Harper Collins. Pg 152 [12] Chesterton, G.K. (2009-12-15). The Chesterton Reader: 21 Works in One Volume (Unexpurgated Edition) (Halcyon Classics) (Kindle Locations 6728-6729). Halcyon Press Ltd.. Kindle Edition. [13] Ibid., Kindle Locations 7317-7318 [14] Ibid., Kindle Locations 7377-7381 [15] For more on this, read The Beginning and the End by Micheal W.Pahl. [16] Chesterton, Kindle Locations 7446-7448 [17] Lewis, Pg. 154. [18] New Revised Standard Version [19] English Standard Version [20] New King James Version [21] New International Version [22] Lewis, Pg. 155 [23] Kim

Episode 109: Dealing with Student Strife   The drama class is one of the only places where students truly examine themselves and their world through reflection and contemplation. Because of that, sudden emotional tides can sweep through your activities. Teacher Christian Kiley talks about the common teen issues that can expectedly and unexpectedly arrive in your classroom and how to deal with them. He also shares his latest play Inanimate whose main character deals with her own emotional issues. Show Notes Inanimate by Christian Kiley The Bright Blue Mailbox Suicide Note by Lindsay Price Split by Bradley Hayward Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP – The Theatrefolk Podcast – the place to be for Drama teachers, Drama students, and theatre educators everywhere. I'm Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Welcome to Episode 109. You can find all the links for this episode at theatrefolk.com/episode109. I'm really thrilled about today's topic and sharing today's topic with you because it's one that most – if not all – Drama teachers have to deal with at some point in their career. Drama teachers have a very unique relationship with their students, right? The Drama class is like no other class. Those relationships sometimes are less structured, less traditional, and sometimes Drama teachers see students like other teachers don't see their students and hear things that normal teachers wouldn't normally hear. Things bubble up – whether they be events or secrets or even just emotions – so, when that swirling emotional tide that comes from a teenager comes your way, how do you handle it? So, let's hear how one teacher – a long-time teacher and Theatrefolk playwright – Christian Kiley deals with student strife. Lindsay: All right. Hello, everybody! I am here talking to Christian Kiley. Hello, Christian! Christian: Hello, Lindsay! Hi, Craig! Lindsay: How are you doing? Christian: I'm very good. Thank you. Lindsay: Awesome. So, we're talking with Christian for a couple of things. He's one of our long-term, long-standing playwrights. Christian, you just seem to know the kind of material that I think really hits home with students in a very unique way. Like, there's always something a little sharp. We like the plays that you write! Christian: Well, I think we're going for the same thing which is taking things that are fantastical and imaginative and merging them with a kind of reality, and when those two things come together, I think it really does resonate with audiences and with students. Lindsay: I think it's important to have those kinds of plays available for students, too, because, you know, in their world right now where we are so intent on television and movies, where everything is sort of replicated and maybe less theatrical, that when a subject matter is explored theatrically, I think that that's a win-win. Christian: Absolutely. Lindsay: Christian has a brand new play with us which does what we're talking about very effectively. It's called Inanimate and it takes place in a world where inanimate objects come to life for a teenage girl – a coffee pot, a door, her clothes – and we learn, as we get more and more into this play, that this is not some kind of Disney story, Disney fantasy, where animals talk and they're very cute. But there's something deeper going on and we thought that, before we get into the play, that that was a very interesting subject because the whole notion of “what's going on in the inner life of a teenager?” because, Christian, you are a Drama teacher. Christian: Yes, I am. Lindsay: How long have you been one? Christian: This is my tenth year at my current school, Etiwanda High School. This will be fifteen years total for me. Lindsay: And what attracts you to being a Drama teacher? Christian: You know, it's interesting because a lot of people are adapting and ...

REFLECTION QUOTES “If you feel it is imperative to fill all your needs, and if these needs are contradictory or in conflict with those of others, or simply unfillable, then frustration inevitably follows…. The individual is not truly fulfilled by becoming ever more autonomous. Indeed, to move too far in this direction is to risk psychosis, the ultimate form of autonomy.” ~Noted social scientist Daniel Yankelovich's in Psychology Today (1981) “…a truly emancipated spirit…is not in bondage to its own emancipation.” ~F.F. Bruce (1910-1990), Scottish Biblical scholar “For though I am no man's slave, yet I have made myself everyone's slave, that I might win more men to Christ.” ~J.B. Phillips' rendering of 1 Corinthians 9:19 “A Christian is a perfectly free lord of all, subject to none. A Christian is a perfectly dutiful servant of all, subject to all.” ~Martin Luther (1483-1546) in “The Freedom of the Christian” “You don't have to be a sociologist to know that we live in a culture of asphyxiating ‘performancism.' Performancism is the mindset that equates our identity and value directly with our performance. It casts achievements not as something we do or don't do but as something we are (or aren't). The money we earn, the car we drive, the schools we attend, aren't merely reflective of our occupation or ability; they are reflective of us. They are constitutive rather than descriptive. In this schema, success equals life, and failure is tantamount to death. Performancism leads us to spend our lives frantically propping up our image or reputation, trying to have it all, do it all, and do it all well, often at a cost to ourselves and those we love.” ~A Washington Post Op-Ed on October 17, 2013 “The secret to freedom…is worship. You need worship. You need great worship. You need weeping worship. You need glorious worship. You need to sense God's greatness and to be moved by it—moved to tears and moved to laughter—moved by who God is and what He has done for you.” ~Tim Keller of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in NYC SERMON PASSAGE Acts 21:17-36 (NASB) 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. 27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple. 30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut. 31 While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion. 32 At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul. 33 Then the commander came up and took hold of him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains; and he began asking who he was and what he had done. 34 But among the crowd some were shouting one thing and some another, and when he could not find out the facts because of the uproar, he ordered him to be brought into the barracks. 35 When he got to the stairs, he was carried by the soldiers because of the violence of the mob; 36 for the multitude of the people kept following them, shouting, “Away with him!”

Episode 69: Christian Kiley   Teacher Christian Kiley is also a published author and a cancer survivor. He talks about writing for youth, and how he used cancer as motivation to write a play. Show Notes Plays by Christian Kiley Playwright Interview Self-Reflection Worksheet Subscribe to The Theatrefolk Podcast Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, The Theatrefolk Podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. So, today we have an interview with teacher, playwright, and cancer survivor, Christian Kiley. We have a number of Christian's plays in our catalog and all of which will include links for in the show notes. We have The Art of Rejection, Chaired, two one-act plays in one book which are so awesomely absurd and also grounded in reality, if that can be, Virtual Family, Discovering Rogue, and his latest, Chemo Girl which is a collection of plays which explore the teen perspective of dealing with cancer. It is such an excellent collection for the variety of plays and the theatricality of them. It's not just, you know, play after play of “I have cancer.” It's so much more. It's got humor and fantasy and humanity – I think that's a real great little package of emotions for such a difficult subject matter. So, check them all out, theatrefolk.com, and especially check out Chemo Girl. So, Christian teaches out in California which I am very keenly aware of as I sit in the office of the Theatrefolk global headquarters, and we are preparing for the first big winter storm of the year, and I like living in a place that has four seasons – I like them all – and I know that, if I want to enjoy fall which is my absolute favorite season, that means winter comes next. But there's something a little bit deflating in sitting here, looking out the window, and I see bare dry pavement and green grass and knowing that it's all about to be history, and I'm going to sit here unquietly, sigh to myself, and you are going to move right on to the interview. Oh, but, just before we do that. Okay, one thing I wanted to say about these podcasts, and also about how you can use them in the classroom, particularly our playwright interview podcasts, have your students listen to the interviews, all of which, you know, there are a good variety in our interview podcast because we have writers of varying histories, varying experiences, but all of them talking about doing something similar – what it's like to write a play – and then, have students reflect afterwards. Does listening to a playwright talk make the act of writing more tangible for them? You know, what were they surprised at what the playwright had to say about writing? What was the most memorable part of the interview? And, how did the interview sort of inform their beliefs about what it was like to write a play? Did it dissuade any beliefs? So, I will include a download self-reflection handout on the Theatrefolk blog post page for this podcast. Whew! Okay, now onto Christian Kiley. Lindsay: Alright, so hello there, welcome to the podcast and I am thrilled to be able to say hello to Christian Kiley. Hello! Christian: Hello, Lindsay! Lindsay: How are you? Christian: I'm very good, thank you. Lindsay: And you are all the way across on the other side of the North America in California. Christian: Yes, Southern California, Rancho Cucamonga. Lindsay: Now where is that? Give me a city that I would know. [Laughs] Christian: Well, [laughs] Ontario has an airport that you guys have probably flown into… Lindsay: Oh, yes. Christian: …I would say. Lindsay: Yes. Christian: You know, the US Ontario. Lindsay: Fabulous. Well, we have a little in connection then – you're in the US Ontario and we're in the Canadian Ontario. Christian: Yes, we're sister cities. Lindsay: [Laughs] Awesome. Okay, so now Christian, you have a number of plays with us. We first got to know you with Art of Rejection and Chaire...

Giving thanks to God should be one of the lofty aims of Christians. God is Good, and He is Good all the time. How do you know that you are an elite Christian? You know how to give God praise and thanks! Churches need to teach Christians how to give thanks! Giving thanks is not natural.