Podcasts about 2X

Trump just signed his biggest crypto executive order yet, giving the Fed 120 days to evaluate opening payment rails to Coinbase, Kraken, Circle, Ripple, and Anchorage. The move could break the bank monopoly on Fed plumbing right as Bitcoin sits at $76K after $1B in ETF outflows and $660M in liquidations. Add Warren's attack on OCC crypto charters, JPMorgan saying Bitcoin ETFs are recovering 2X faster than Ethereum, Goldman dumping XRP and Solana for Hyperliquid, and the SEC readying tokenized stocks, and you have one of the most pivotal weeks of the cycle. Is this the bottom, or the setup for Bitcoin's next leg higher? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sir Ben McDougal is a 2X author, 5X founder, podcaster, teacher, content creator, technologist, and traveler. Check out his latest book, BrewedFromWithin.com Welcome to the Conscious Millionaire Show - Become an Ultra-Performer. Now 3X week M / W / F   Are you an Entrepreneur, Founder, or CEO? Revenues $250K to $5M? Sign up for your Breakout Session...get custom steps to build a fast-growing, highly profitable business that makes an impact.     BOOK Your Breakout Session Now     Join Host JV Crum III, with 2 exits and over 75M revenues in his companies, he is the Ultra-Performer Advisor for Founders, Entrepreneurs and CEOs ready to achieve at your the top 1%.     SUBSCRIBE to Conscious Millionaire Show     Season 12 of the award-winning Conscious Millionaire Show. The World's #1 Ultra-Performance podcast. Millions of Listeners. 190 countries -- Inc Magazine "Top 13 Business Podcasts" with 12 seasons and 3,200+ episodes.

Sir Ben McDougal is a 2X author, 5X founder, podcaster, teacher, content creator, technologist, and traveler. Check out his latest book, BrewedFromWithin.com Welcome to the Conscious Millionaire Show - Become an Ultra-Performer. Now 3X week M / W / F   Are you an Entrepreneur, Founder, or CEO? Revenues $250K to $5M? Sign up for your Breakout Session...get custom steps to build a fast-growing, highly profitable business that makes an impact.     BOOK Your Breakout Session Now     Join Host JV Crum III, with 2 exits and over 75M revenues in his companies, he is the Ultra-Performer Advisor for Founders, Entrepreneurs and CEOs ready to achieve at your the top 1%.     SUBSCRIBE to Conscious Millionaire Show     Season 12 of the award-winning Conscious Millionaire Show. The World's #1 Ultra-Performance podcast. Millions of Listeners. 190 countries -- Inc Magazine "Top 13 Business Podcasts" with 12 seasons and 3,200+ episodes.

It's Microdose Monday on Fitness Stuff for Normal People which means Marianna and Tony are rapid fire breaking down multiple topics you guys have been asking about instead of spending the whole episode on just one. This week, they're diving into reverse dieting, why creatine might actually be one of the most underrated tools for fat loss, how coffee can impact your gut health, and the sneaky things nutrition labels hope you don't notice. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by conflicting health advice online, this episode is packed with quick, practical breakdowns that actually make sense. Shorter topics, real explanations, and plenty of little “wait… WHAT?” moments along the way.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps:(2:02) Coffee and Gut Health
(15:08) Reverse Dieting
(26:27) How to Accurately Read a Nutrition Label
(39:31) Creatine for Fat Loss

On this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down the 5 biggest dieting mistakes that keep people stuck when trying to lose fat or build muscle. They talk through why making sudden, extreme changes usually backfires, how not tracking your food can leave you guessing, and why chasing fast results slows you down long term. They also get into the trap of focusing on small details that don't actually move the needle and how black and white thinking around food can hurt your consistency. If you've ever felt frustrated with your progress, this episode will help you simplify the process and focus on what actually works.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(3:49) Mistake 1 Making sudden or massive changes
(9:02) Mistake 2 Not tracking food
(17:36) Mistake 3 Thinking faster not longer
(23:43) Mistake 4 Little details
(32:31) Mistake 5 Thinking black and white

Learning a new language as a busy executive sounds great in theory. In practice, the process for how to learn Spanish, for most people, is downloading five apps, getting overwhelmed, and quitting within a month. Sound familiar?In this episode, Omar Newman—Spanish educator, coach, and founder of Carolina Language Solutions—joins Julian Hayes II to break down exactly how busy operators and professionals can learn Spanish without the noise, the overwhelm, or the wasted time.Omar brings 34 years of experience, 22 of which were spent teaching in the school system, before building his own adult language coaching practice. He explains why most people are learning Spanish the wrong way, how to build real conversational fluency faster than you think, and why the biggest barrier isn't grammar, but instead, confidence.He also unpacks why Spanish sounds so fast to English speakers, how to use high-frequency phrases to build momentum fast, and the mindset shift that separates people who stall from those who actually speak. This is a practical, no-fluff conversation about one of the highest-leverage skills an executive or entrepreneur can develop, and a natural extension of what Executive Health is all about: optimizing your full performance, mind included.— Episode Chapter Big Ideas (timing may not be exact) —0:00 - Introduction and why 2026 is the right time to learn Spanish0:45 - Omar's origin story: from Fort Bragg to 34 years in the language3:00 - Why culture and music pull people into a language—not the language itself7:36 - The language noise problem: too many apps, too many voices10:26 - High-frequency phrases and the ICE method for building sentences fast17:41 - Repetition, reps, and treating language like a training program21:44 - Confidence as the real barrier and how to overcome it26:30 - Why Spanish sounds so fast to English speakers28:47 - Syllable-based vs. stress-timed language: the real reason for the speed gap32:26 - The 2X speed hack: train your ear in English to hear Spanish better37:27 - Staying consistent: the SOTT plan and three activities a day44:15 - The four levels of fluency (and why the European framework overcomplicates it)49:02 - How conversational fluency holds up in real business settings56:42 - The easiest forms of Spanish to learn first1:01:43 - Learning two languages simultaneously: how Omar manages six1:06:01 - Three things to do right now if you're serious about Spanish1:11:09 - Where to connect with Omar— Key Quotes from Omar Newman — "It's not that they're speaking too fast. It's that you all listen slow.""You don't go to Baskin-Robbins and try every single ice cream they have. Stay in your lane.""You're already creating a false scenario of how it's going to be received when you use the language in public. Once you do it, that's it.""You can't start building the roof on the house when you don't have a foundation."— Connect With Omar Newman —Website: https://carolinalanguagesolutions.com/ YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@SpeakSpanishNowInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/carolina_language_solutionsLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omar-newman-26877b4b/ — Connect with Julian and Executive Health —LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/julianhayesii/X — https://x.com/thejulianhayesDon't let your biology become the bottleneck to the enterprise you're building. Book a private call —https://www.executivehealth.io/contactWebsite — https://www.executivehealth.io/***DISCLAIMER: The information shared is not meant to treat or diagnose any condition. This is for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes. The content here is not intended to replace your relationship with your doctor and/or medical practitioner. Consult your provider before making any decisions.

What if change didn't take years, but minutes?In this episode, Sagi Chekroun shares how Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) can help you create rapid, lasting transformation by working directly with the unconscious mind—the true driver of your habits, emotions, and results.Most people try to change through willpower, discipline, or information. But real change doesn't happen at the surface—it happens beneath it. When you understand how your mind actually stores patterns, you can begin to shift them faster than you thought possible.We break down why change often feels difficult, and challenge the belief that transformation has to be slow. You've already created habits, fears, and emotional patterns instantly. The same mechanism can be used to rewire them.One of the most powerful ideas discussed is secondary gain—the hidden benefit behind every habit. Whether it's stress relief, comfort, or a sense of control, your mind holds onto patterns because they serve you in some way. If you try to eliminate a habit without replacing what it gives you, it often comes back in another form. Real change comes from upgrading the benefit, not fighting the behavior.We also explore the mindset shift of “10X is easier than 2X”—why aiming for bigger transformation can actually be simpler than incremental change, because it forces you to think differently and step into a new identity.From there, we get practical.You'll learn simple NLP tools you can start using immediately:How to “scramble” negative memories by changing how they're stored (visual, auditory, and physical components)How to use dissociation to safely process intense experiences without reliving themHow to create a mental “control panel” to interact with your inner worldHow to build anchors—physical triggers that instantly shift your emotional stateHe also guides me through a powerful 3-minute future pacing exercise. This practice helps you step into your future self—seeing through their eyes, feeling their emotions, and allowing your mind to begin wiring in the path to get there. Instead of chasing a goal, you begin to embody it.A key theme throughout the episode is that less is more. You don't need long, complicated routines. Short, consistent practices—just a few minutes a day—can create real, lasting change when done correctly.This episode is for anyone who feels stuck, wants to break patterns, or is looking for a more aligned, effective way to grow—mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.Resources mentioned include Richard Bandler, Paul McKenna, and Jose Silva, along with additional NLP tools and teachings.Take 3 minutes today to try it yourself:Visualize your life one year from now. Step into that version of you. Feel it fully.Then ask: Who do I need to become to live this?Because real change doesn't come from forcing yourself forward. It comes from becoming someone new.

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In this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down what gut health actually means and why it impacts way more than just digestion. From metabolism to mood, your gut is tied into everything, and this episode focuses on the habits that truly make a difference. They walk through the science behind fiber and prebiotics, hydration, stress and the brain gut connection, daily movement, and how your overall eating patterns shape your microbiome. They also get into the real effects of antibiotics, probiotics, alcohol, under eating, and sleep so you can understand what is helping your gut and what might be holding you back. This is a practical, no fluff look at gut health built around realistic habits you can actually stick to.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps3:42) What is Gut Health?
(8:24) Fiber / Prebiotics
(16:11) Drinking enough water
(19:32) Limit stress / Brain and Gut connection
(25:26) Daily movement
(27:28) Limited processed foods / eating patterns
(34:17) Antibiotics
(38:23) Probiotics
(42:57) Alcohol
(46:28) Under eating
(58:56) Sleep

A bold mindset that crushes self-doubt, fear and awakens the unstoppable force within you Filled with perspective-shifting insights, The More Mindset: Break Mental Limits and Step into Extraordinary Results delivers a roadmap for your future. Pagano gives readers the tools and techniques, backed by science and neuroplasticity, that transformed her life and the lives of many she's coached throughout her career as an action-driven mindset coach. Pagano shares relatable stories from her own life that will leave you inspired and ready to take action. This book is a testament to the inspiration that can emerge from life's challenges. In this book, readers will learn how to: Harness the power of your thoughts so your beliefs build you up rather than break you down Recognize and conquer your fears that have been quietly running the show in your life Take bold, imperfect action with confidence and develop a daily state of gratitude Embody a winning mindset to gain momentum Build resilience and grit to become unstoppable Whether you're an entrepreneur looking for more, a business leader carrying the weight of others expectations, or juggling work and family while still holding onto big dreams, The More Mindset is your key to start living a life filled with purpose and fulfillment, the life that you've always dreamed of. Hi, I'm Diana Pagano, I'm a successful entrepreneur, inspirational speaker, 2X national bestselling author author, mom of four and a wife to a man who dreams as big as I do. I fill my life with healthy breakfast smoothies, very high heels, and a fierce passion for helping others “Make Things Happen!” But that wasn't always my story…. I grew up with little to no certainty, overcoming obstacles was the norm. Living to just survive. I did not know what it was like to have stability and security. Simply, trying to make sense out of life. Wondering “How is this my life?!” Ever asked yourself that? Failure was just not an option for me…. I wanted more! That's when I realized I wasn't truly living with intention. I was settling. I had to make a change, reprogram and reset my way of thinking. I learned the power which exists in every one of us, God's greatest gift, to control what I allowed in and how to take control of how I was manifesting my reality. I raised my standards both in business and my personal life. I transformed my life! I've created an amazing life that I have always dreamed of and so can you! From being a successful real estate professional and business leader; no professional milestone even comes close to the passion – to the obsession – I feel each day for showing you how to “Make Things Happen”. Not only are YOU capable in changing your life around for the better – you deserve it! I'm here to tell you, you can change your circumstance around regardless of how you got there. Regardless of your past circumstances, regardless of your life path… YOU, CAN “MAKE THINGS HAPPEN!”

You're showing up to the gym, getting your steps in, being mindful with your food, and still not seeing the progress you expect. In this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down the five most common reasons fat loss stalls, even when you feel like you're doing everything right. They cover where calories tend to slip through the cracks, how people misjudge what they're actually burning, why daily movement matters more than you think, and how stress, sleep, and overall lifestyle can quietly impact results. They also talk through the role of expectations and consistency, and why progress often takes longer than people anticipate. If you've been feeling stuck or unsure what to adjust, this episode will help you refocus on what actually moves the needle.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(6:21) Underestimating calories you're consuming(13:10) Overestimating how many calories burned(19:02) Not moving enough(26:41) Rest of your life sucks(39:32) Tie..Unrealistic expectations / Not consistent

SEASON: 6 EPISODE: 23Episode Overview:Welcome back to Becoming Preferred, the podcast where we interview the brightest minds in business today to help you level up your game and become the best version of you.If you are an entrepreneur or a marketing leader, you've repeatedly heard the mantra 'do more with less'. But our guest today says that's the wrong goal. She believes we shouldn't just be doing more; we should be redesigning the work itself.Lisa Cole is the Chief Product, Marketing, and AI Officer at 2X, where she heads their AI Center of Excellence. With over 20 years of experience and three major B2B transformations under her belt, Lisa has become the 'secret weapon' for CMOs looking to bridge the gap between human creativity and machine efficiency. She is the author of Brand Gravity, The Revenue RAMP, and her highly anticipated new book, The Limitless CMO.Today, we're going to talk about how to move from being a 'cost center' to a 'revenue engine,' the reality of AI adoption , and how to build a brand that has enough 'gravity' to pull customers toward you without you having to chase them. Join me for my conversation with Lisa Cole.Guest Bio: Lisa Cole is Chief Product, Marketing & AI Officer and Head of the AI Center of Excellence at 2X. For more than 20 years, Lisa has helped B2B marketing leaders achieve more with less by redesigning how marketing work gets done through strategic outsourcing, AI adoption, and performance management.Lisa has led three major B2B marketing transformations, including award-recognized work, and she's been a trusted advisor to CMOs for nearly 16 years. She's also the author of Brand Gravity, The Revenue RAMP, and her newest book, The Limitless CMO.Resource Links:Website: www.lisacole.aiCompany Website: https://2x.marketing/Insight Gold Timestamps:03:31 I shifted and pivoted into marketing06:13 I remember when I started the very first question a company would ask is, should I have a website?08:36 The underlying principle there is still true, you actually have to ask them11:07 By the time they've actually made that decision to engage with your brand directly...12:43 Marketing is the one that makes sure that you are both findable, understood, and chosen16:21 Could marketing do a better job of being proactive with that, with the sales department?20:24 The premise behind brand gravity is...23:33 No better time to be a founder or entrepreneur, if you're comfortable with just putting your point of views, and your secret sauce out in the world25:52 Your superpower is going to be wherever is uniquely human28:02 Are there some must haves that small businesses should have?31:53 The most common piece of feedback I get is...32:22 My measure of success here is engagement34:27 You have to be okay with change36:10 And you argue for redesigning how work gets done instead of just working harder37:37 My favorite question to ask is, how long does it take for you to get a campaign from an idea into market?40:02 You head the AI Center of Excellence at 2X42:04 The new book's called The Limitless CMOConnect Socially:LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/lisacole01Twitter (X): https://x.com/CMOInnovatorCompany: https://www.youtube.com/@2xmarketingTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thelimitlesscmoEmail: lisa.cole@2X.marketingSponsors: Rainmaker LeadGen Platform Demo: https://calendar.summit-learning.com/widget/booking/JKItVP7WErmCBjU2cCIxRainmaker Digital Solutions: https://www.rainmakerdigitalsolutions.com/

Most people think they need more discipline or motivation or that they just need to lock in a little harder, and sometimes that is true, but a lot of the time the people actually making progress are not better than you, they have just built an environment where the right decisions happen more automatically. In this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony are breaking down the tools they actually use to make losing fat, gaining muscle, and sticking to your diet easier to execute day to day, from gym add ons like straps, belts, and apps, to simple kitchen tools that take the guesswork out of eating, to a few things outside of both that help you stay consistent without having to rely on willpower every single day.⁠⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(4:43) Lifting Straps or Hooks
(9:37) Wrist Wraps
(10:56) Liquid Chalk
(14:42) Lifting Belt
(19:38) Lifting Apps
(22:01) AI tools(27:05) Food Scale
(29:00) Meal Prep Containers
(31:00) Veggie Chopper
(32:00) Air Fryer and Misc Kitchen Tools
(38:00) Grocery List
(41:00) Cronometer(42:46) Scale
(48:24) Our Free Calculators
(49:47) Sunrise Alarm Clock
(52:04) Sleep tracker(54:08) Books

I don't know about you, but I find the cereal aisle to be a pretty wondrous place.  We're all probably pretty used to it, but just imagine the cereal aisle from the perspective of a person who has never seen it before. It's a lot. I mean, how do you pick a cereal when you don't know what each of them has to offer.  Of course, this is where marketing comes in.  Marketing is that thing that tries to connect us with products, services, organizations, and every other matter of thing that is trying to get our attention. In the Attention Economy, that's a tall ask. The Attention Economy refers to how human attention is a scarce resource and can be traded for profit. The key point here is it is a ‘scarce resource,' and one that is only getting more scarce. As an educator, I know this very well. We only have so much attention to give, and there is more and more that is competing for it.  Marketers have a much harder job, but luckily for them they have more tools at their disposal to help. The trick is how to best use them. Today's guest on Experience by Design is Lisa Cole, Chief Marketing, Product, and AI Officer (or CMPAIO) of the company 2X. She also is the author of the just released book The Limitless CMO). She also is the author of the books “Brand Gravity” and “The Revenue Ramp.”  We talk about how growing up she was the kid that always tried to take things apart to see how they worked. That translates very well to exploring how AI can be leveraged for marketing today, digging into it and seeing how it works in order to capitalize on its abilities in the Attention Economy.  We discuss how we need to spend more time learning than just doing, finding ways to do things differently than before if we want to stand out from the noise. Lisa highlights the importance of reimagining workflows and tasks before applying AI to optimize outcomes and prevent inaccuracies. Afterall, the product produced through the use of a tool is always dependent on the skill of the person using it. Lisa's new book shows how marketing leaders can overcome constraints through three key levers: running marketing like a business, leveraging outsource models, and adopting AI. We also discuss the relationship between sales and marketing, and how many companies continue to make it harder to buy when they finally get your attention.  Finally, Lisa shares how she used an AI-based tool to interview her on long drives to help her generate ideas for her book.  In this new era of attention competition, there is a lot to learn to make people aware of our presence, and this conversation is a great place to start no matter what you are marketing. Even cereal. Lisa Cole: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisacole01/ 2X Marketing: https://2x.marketing/ “The Limitless CMO”: https://www.amazon.com/Limitless-CMO-Transform-Order-Taking-Market-Making-ebook/dp/B0GSCXR8HM

In today's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony get real about something a lot of people struggle with but don't always say out loud… having a bad relationship with food. When you start taking your fitness seriously, tracking, and trying to make progress, it can quietly shift the way you think about eating in ways that aren't always healthy. This episode breaks down how that slippery slope happens and gives you five evidence-based ways to rebuild a healthier, more sustainable relationship with food. If you've ever felt stuck between “doing it right” and actually enjoying your life, this one's for you.⁠⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:27) Current relationship with food(11:57) How to improve your relationship to food(12:03) Pay attention to hunger cues(22:37) Stop labeling as good or bad(33:03) Eat mindfully(40:53) Ditch the trendy diets and food rules(45:15) Stop letting other people's opinions influence your food choices

From High Revenue to High Profit: The Missing Piece in Your Business with Chris Hallberg, EOS   Find Rocky Lalvani @ www.ProfitComesFirst.com  or email him at rocky@profitcomesfirst.com  Make more, work less video: https://youtu.be/    Hire a Green Beret: Why Veterans Transform Your Business    In this episode, Rocky Lalvani sits down with Chris Hallberg, ranked #9 on Inc. Magazine's Top 50 Leadership & Management Experts, to discuss why hiring the right people and implementing disciplined systems are the real keys to building a profitable business. Chris shares insights from his military background, his veteran-powered recruiting company Business Sergeant, and his work implementing the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) with hundreds of companies. Learn why Green Berets might be your secret weapon, how to stop bleeding money through bad hiring decisions, and why your profit problem might not be a revenue problem at all.    Learning Insights  The true cost of bad hiring: A single bad hire in a $100,000 role costs approximately $500,000 when accounting for turnover and lost productivity. A-players cost only 1.2X to 1.6X more but deliver 2 to 10 times the value.  Veterans are exceptionally rare and valuable: Only half of 1% of the US population has special operations training. They don't cost more to hire than regular candidates but deliver exponentially more value through proven leadership under pressure.  High revenue does not equal high profit: The biggest pattern Chris sees is companies saying yes to every opportunity. Without a strong number two person (COO/integrator) to say no and protect margins, you get high sales but low profit.  Your yes person needs a no person: Visionary CEOs naturally seek opportunities. They need a strong integrator to say no and protect profit margins. Without this balance, money disappears and profit suffers.  Accountability is natural with the right people: When you hire aligned, quality people who share your values, accountability happens without friction. If you can't hold someone accountable, you have the wrong person in that seat.  Use math, not gut feeling, to make decisions: Create a go/no-go matrix based on realistic data. Input assumptions about revenue, time, and resources. Let the numbers tell you yes or no instead of relying on passion or intuition.  Discipline beats opportunity every single time: The road to business failure is paved with companies that couldn't decide what to say no to. Clear, disciplined decisions about strategy and fit matter more than saying yes to everything.    The Big Takeaway  The difference between businesses that struggle and businesses that thrive isn't complicated. It's not about working harder, better marketing, or a superior product. It's about two things: the right people in the right seats, and the discipline to say no to opportunities that don't fit your strategy and profit model. Most visionary founders and CEOs are wired to say yes. They're opportunity seekers. That's their strength. But without a strong integrator, COO, or number two person who protects profit margins by saying no, companies end up with high revenue and low profit. They're exhausted, understaffed, and serving too many customers at too thin a margin. Additionally, most business owners are flying blind when it comes to hiring and decision making. They rely on gut feeling instead of math. Veterans, particularly those from special operations backgrounds, bring a rare combination of perseverance, problem solving, accountability, and calm under pressure that most candidates can't match. They've been selected and tested in environments where failure isn't an option. They understand what real adversity looks like, which makes business challenges feel manageable by comparison. The math is simple: invest more upfront in the right person, hold them accountable, create systems for evaluation and improvement, and say no to opportunities that don't fit. Do this, and your business transforms.    Conclusion  Building a profitable, scalable business requires more than good ideas and hard work. It requires the right people in the right seats, clear systems for making decisions, and the discipline to say no. Chris Hallberg's work with hundreds of leadership teams and his experience as a veteran demonstrate that these principles work regardless of industry or company size. Whether you hire a Green Beret through Business Sergeant or simply apply the framework Chris and Rocky outlined, the message is the same: your people and your discipline are what create profit. Everything else is a distraction.    About Chris Hallberg  Chris Hallberg—known as the "Business Sergeant"—is a top-ranked leadership expert, military veteran, and serial entrepreneur who transforms good companies into great ones, fast. Ranked #9 on Inc. Magazine's Top 50 Leadership & Management Experts—ahead of Simon Sinek—Chris blends battlefield-tested leadership with the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) to deliver proven results.  He scaled and sold a startup during the Great Recession at an 8× multiple, built royalty-generating sales systems, and became Colorado's first EOS Implementer, guiding 100+ teams to achieve 90%+ employee engagement rates and 100+ Best Places to Work awards. Today, he co-builds a $5M AI-driven EOS platform while coaching billion-dollar contractors, national chains, and franchises with a remarkable 85% success rate.  With his no-nonsense, high-energy style, Chris simplifies strategy, strengthens culture, and shows leaders how to drive 30%+ EBIT on predictable systems—making him a powerhouse guest for any podcast.    Links  Website: https://goexpand.com/   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hallberg-01516315/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/GoExpand/61577326657347/#  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goexpandplatform?igsh=MXV5N2I1Mml0MXF4aw%3D%3D  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@GoExpand    Profit Blueprint Calculator I Profit Comes First https://lp.profitcomesfirst.com/profitblueprintcalc-page    Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@profitanswerman  Sign up to be notified when the next cohort of the Profit First Experience Course is available!  Free Copy of the Profit Blueprint Book: https://lp.profitcomesfirst.com/landing-page-page   Monthly Newsletter signup: https://lp.profitcomesfirst.com/newsletter-signup  Relay Bank (affiliate link): https://relayfi.com/?referralcode=profitcomesfirst  Profit Answer Man Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/profitanswerman/  My podcast about living a richer more meaningful life: http://richersoul.com/  Music provided by Junan from Junan Podcast  Any financial advice is for educational purposes only and you should consult with an expert for your specific needs. 

In today's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony are back with Micro-Dose Monday, breaking down a mix of the most interesting topics you've been asking about lately with quick, practical, evidence-based takes. They get into the science behind microneedling and whether it actually delivers for skin and hair health, unpack the $85 million David Protein Bar situation, and look at what really happens when you take a much higher 25g dose of creatine compared to the standard 5g. They also cover a new study that challenges the idea that cutting out sweet foods reduces cravings or improves health outcomes. If you've been curious about any of these, this episode gives you a clear, no-nonsense breakdown of what actually matters.⁠⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:33) Science of Microneedling(25:25) David Protein Bars(36:58) 25g of Creatine(43:17) Cutting Sweet Foods Study

In this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony take an objective look at alcohol and its impact on overall health and performance. Rather than taking an all-or-nothing approach, they break down how alcohol affects key areas including fat loss, muscle building, gut health, hormones, sleep, and mental health. The goal is to provide clear, practical insight so you can better understand the tradeoffs and make informed decisions that align with your goals.⁠All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:38) Levels of drinking(5:44) Weight loss & Building muscle(14:22) Gut health
(21:07) Hormones
(27:42) Mental health
(37:54) Sleep

Spring hit, the clocks changed, and suddenly summer doesn't feel far away. In this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down exactly what to do (and what not to do) when you realize beach season is basically around the corner and you need results fast. No crash diets, no influencer nonsense. Just the real steps that actually move the needle. If you're two months out and ready to lock in, this episode is your game plan.All Free Calculators (Calorie, Protein, etc.)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(7:45) What not to do
(19:29) Water retention/bloating(19:45) Step 1 - Calories (25:15) Step 2 - Maximize Steps(27:11) Step 3 - Water(28:24) Step 4 - Water retention
(30:05) Step 5 - Strength Training

From Vision to Execution: The UAE's Next Space ChapterIn this special episode of Space Cafe Radio, recorded live at the Middle East Space Conference in Oman, Torsten Kriening speaks with His Excellency Salem Al Qubaisi, Director General of the UAE Space Agency, about the remarkable evolution of the UAE as a modern, agile space nation.In just over a decade, the United Arab Emirates has moved from ambition to execution — building not only missions, but a fully integrated ecosystem spanning exploration, Earth observation, AI-driven analytics, and international cooperation. Today, the focus is clear: scale, multiply, and globalize.At the heart of this transformation lies the Emirates 2030 Strategy and a bold KPI: “2X everything.” Double the number of companies. Double research output. Double socioeconomic impact. The result? A 35% increase in space companies, now exceeding 300, alongside growing investments in academia, startups, and advanced technologies.But this is more than numbers.Al Qubaisi outlines a model built on enablement — streamlined licensing, 100% foreign ownership, “Zero Bureaucracy” initiatives, and seamless one-stop-shop processes designed to accelerate innovation without compromising safety or risk management. The message to the world: the UAE is open, fast, and serious.Security, he emphasizes, is a pillar — not through militarization, but through enablement. Defense is viewed as a vital customer of space services, reinforcing the role of Earth observation, ISR capabilities, and resilient infrastructure as foundations of sovereignty and economic growth.Partnership is central. The UAE does not seek isolation or duplication. Instead, it positions itself as a high-quality partner in global supply chains — offering world-class infrastructure, political stability, and access to over 30 comprehensive economic agreements worldwide. The goal is not relocation. It is integration.From the Arab Space Cooperation Group's satellite initiatives to an upcoming regional space-data hackathon leveraging new Earth observation assets, the UAE continues to translate inspiration into industrial capability. Astronaut achievements and youth engagement are not symbolic — they are strategic multipliers feeding a rapidly expanding innovation ecosystem.Looking ahead five years, Al Qubaisi's vision is pragmatic and ambitious: achieve the 2X target, attract more international co-production, strengthen midstream and downstream industries, and position the UAE as a trusted, competitive node in the global space economy.This episode of Space Cafe Radio captures a nation that understands momentum — and intends to sustain it. The UAE space story is no longer about proving capability. It is about scaling influence.We love to hear from you. Send us your thought, comments, suggestions, love lettersSupport the showYou can find us on: Spotify and Apple Podcast!Please visit us at SpaceWatch.Global, subscribe to our newsletters. Follow us on LinkedIn and X!

IN THIS EPISODE: Every organization begins by serving customers. Not all of them get it right — or keep it that way. So where does the customer  relationship break down? In this episode, Denise Silber speaks with HBS MBA Caroline Evans de Gantes, a transformation leader who has spent more than two decades helping companies design strategy, culture, and operations around customer love as an organizing principle. Caroline recalls arriving at Harvard Business School in 2008 just as the Lehman Brothers collapse unfolded — an experience that shaped her leadership perspective: progress comes from experimentation, learning quickly, and working closely with frontline teams. Drawing on transformations across industries known for difficult customer relationships, she shares what it takes to reconnect organizations with the people they serve. From mobile phone insurance and broadband installation to the transformation of leading real-estate marketplace SeLoger within the Aviv Group, the conversation explores how leadership culture, incentives, and technology can be realigned around customers — and how doing so improves business performance. Throughout the discussion, Caroline shows that making customer love an organizing principle starts on Day 1. GUEST BIO: Caroline Evans de Gantès, a 2010 MBA graduate of the Harvard Business School, has over 20 years experience transforming offline industries by placing the client front and center. From insurance to telecommunications  to real estate, Caroline has deployed this approach to transform culture, product, and strategy, and turn profits around. Most recently, Caroline led a transformation at SeLoger (a 30 year old French real estate marketplace) to 2X the growth rate and a great NPS (Net Promoter Score), through redesigning culture, organisation, and business model. She merged SeLoger, and other real estate companies in France, launched new services to take back market share from rivals and championed a customer-centric culture in France, Belgium, and Germany. The resulting business, Aviv, is the leading European real estate marketplace with 50M monthly active users.  Caroline is originally from the State of Mississippi and has fashioned a career as the bridge between people and technology and the US and Europe. 

There is a storm coming with the challenges of navigating the TRUSTEE CRISIS. It is one of the biggest blind spots in the “GREAT WEALTH TRANSFER” and will be the source of mountains of litigation for the unwary, https://youtu.be/hwQev88A03M Summary In this conversation, Frazer Rice and Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey discuss the current crisis in trusteeship, highlighting the shortage of qualified trustees amidst a significant wealth transfer. They explore the importance of modern trust planning, the challenges faced by individual trustees, and the need for better education and training in the field. The discussion also covers the emotional and interpersonal aspects of trusteeship, the functions and responsibilities of trustees, and the necessity of managing risk effectively. They emphasize the importance of building a pipeline for future trustees and improving the perception of the profession, while also identifying opportunities within the trust industry. https://open.spotify.com/episode/4qpkrVdaUa2AfDxgl7j3yN?si=XVgG3jE_Qpqq2JTqi8XLXQ Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠) Takeaways The coming crisis in trusteeship is already here. There is a significant shortage of qualified trustees. Trusteeship requires strong interpersonal skills and emotional intelligence. Managing risk is a fundamental aspect of trusteeship. Trustees critically need education and training. The role of a trustee is evolving with increasing complexity. Beneficiaries need to understand their rights and the trustee’s role. Custodial responsibilities are essential for asset protection. There are many opportunities for growth in the trust industry. Trust law and investment management are distinct fields. This Episode is for . . . Anyone that has an estate plan with a trust in it and doesn't know what a trustee does Any advisor who works w/ multi-generational situations (that’s everybody in wealth management) Any RIA looking to sell Financial types worried about compliance world Fiduciary litigators Chapters of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” 00:00 The Coming Crisis in Trusteeship 02:06 Importance of Modern Trust Planning 04:11 Challenges with Individual Trustees 08:03 The Dwindling Pool of Qualified Trustees 10:06 Functions and Responsibilities of a Trustee 12:20 The Emotional and Interpersonal Aspects of Trusteeship 16:05 Managing Risk in Trusteeship 19:07 Building a Pipeline for Future Trustees 22:10 The Role of Education in Trusteeship 25:07 Improving the Perception of Trusteeship 28:19 The Need for Better Trust Education 30:39 Bifurcation of Trustee Functions 33:26 Distribution Functions and Beneficiary Relations 36:52 Custodial Responsibilities in Trusteeship 40:19 Consequences of Poor Asset Management 46:41 Curriculum for Trustee Education 52:13 Opportunities in the Trust Industry Transcript of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” Frazer Rice (00:01.068)Welcome aboard, Jennifer. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:02.723)Thanks Frazer, how are you today? Frazer Rice (00:04.782)I am doing great. We’re going to dive into a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts. And that is what I’m describing as the coming crisis in trusteeship, but I think it’s already here. Which is the concept of qualified trustees being in short supply, right in the face of a gigantic wealth transfer. And first of all, before we get into that, just describe what you do on a day to day basis first. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:33.445)Sure, I actually wear a bunch of hats. Day to day, right now, I’m a full-time practicing trust and estate attorney. I’m also an individual trustee for a variety of trusts that need either somebody here physically located in Delaware for a short period of time or even a successor trustee. But I’ve also spent many, many years building programs in trust management and trust administration. Because there is this crisis of human capital that just does not exist. I built multiple programs. They’re housed out of the University of Delaware. So I act as a trust and estate attorney, do planning, administration, I teach in the area, I build programs in the area, and I serve as a trustee. PEAK TRUST MANAGEMENT CERTIFICATE Frazer Rice (01:23.182)A full plate to be sure. To me, I came out of Wilmington Trust and another trust company served an individual trustee too. I’ve seen all these different flavors of trusteeship. My general sort of bon mot around that is that the individual trustees. I’d say 95 % or higher don’t really have an appreciation of the risk and responsibility that they’re taking on. And then the corporates have their own issues, which we’ll get into in a little bit. If we pull back even further, modern trust planning in wealth management, why is this so important? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (02:06.275)That’s massively important. It’s not just for the mass affluent or the ultra high net worth. It’s for everybody. We have all of these assets that we have this hyperfocus on building and increasing our wealth. Making sure that we have the ability to sustain ourselves throughout our entire lives. But if we don’t do this type of planning, if we don’t have structures and implementation for when we die, then our assets that we’ve planned so diligently for will fall off of a cliff. We lose the ability to control ultimately what happens to those assets. Layered on top of that, of course, is the tax component for ultra high net worth folks who are trying to really focus and direct their assets to make and create generational wealth transfers. Without this type of functionality and wealth planning and estate planning long-term, people lose control of what they’ve spent so much time building. Frazer Rice (03:13.338)One of the things I tell people as far as trusts are concerned is that, you know, we’re putting these structures together. They’re durable enough to withstand taxation or creditors or other asset protection features, create some guidelines around distributing the assets to the next generation or other constituencies. But also have some flexibility to be able to deal with the things we can’t look into the crystal ball and figure out over time. And that those three things just putting a document together that tries to do all that is hard enough, but then to put it in the hands of somebody or something to administer and to exercise discretion around it. That’s where the real art and science kind of stitched together and create this issue. You know, as we think about that too, the idea, the history of these types of scenarios kind of goes back to, you know, you’d put a structure in place and then you’d go hire a bank and they’d take care of everything. How do you look at that and say, all right, we’ve gone well past banks to individuals and then to dedicated institutions. What is the problem there? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:22.956)Now the problem, there’s two problems. In my opinion, what I see is that, you know, your individual trustee by and large is Uncle Joe, right? He’s the guy that everybody goes to in the family. The responsible one. He’s the smart one. The wealthy one who, great, doesn’t know what the fiduciary duties are. He doesn’t know that he has a duty of impartiality. He doesn’t know that… Frazer Rice (04:32.419)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:48.475)He can’t self deal unless the instrument says so. Doesn’t understand how the instrument works. He doesn’t understand the nuance and the legalese written into the instrument. But he’s flying by the seat of his pants and everybody looks to him as the respected one in the family. No one knows that they have the ability to challenge him. So with your individual run of the mill trustee named in the instrument, they just don’t have the expertise, they don’t have the technical knowledge. Don’t know what they don’t know. They can get into trouble in that way. The other problem that you have with professional individual trustees oftentimes is that they are not formally trained. They may be an attorney who is working in that area, who’s doing plans for people who may or may not know what the full scope of being a trustee is. They may not realize, I have to get a special insurance policy because my malpractice insurance policy doesn’t actually cover this type of fiduciary engagement. There’s a lot of landmines that individuals can run into when they’re doing this type of work. On the corporate side, the problems that we run into is that there’s just a complete and utter lack. Frazer Rice (05:50.061)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (06:12.059)Of available educational programs to teach people the proper way to be able to understand trusteeship. It has always been, and it just has developed over time through, you know, oh, we’ll give it to the bank, the bank will do it. This apprenticeship model, and that just does not scale well because if you learn improperly at the edge of a desk from somebody that learned improperly at the edge of the desk. Then the person that you’re teaching now at the edge of the desk is learning what you learned improperly. So anecdotally, I did karate for a long, long time. And the man who taught me karate, I’m almost a secondary black belt to like, was serious in karate. And the man who taught me karate said, you practice, it makes permanent. Don’t practice wrong. Because when you’re practicing wrong, you’re making permanent wrong things. And that’s what the apprenticeship model has the risk of lending itself to. It’s not that every trustee that learns at the edge of the desk learns wrong, but the risk is too high because the fiduciary responsibilities and the duties are too high to run that risk. The other problem is that we have a dwindling pool of really qualified senior trust officers because of just the nature of the job. You’re a human being, you’re an individual, you age, you retire. And it’s not something that people go to school and say, when I grow up, I want to be a trustee. They fall into it sideways. And unless there are academic programs that are out there that people are aware of and that they can get some formal training, some formal education to enter into the field. Frazer Rice (07:49.742)Yeah Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (08:03.82)Separate and distinct from, I’m in the field and now I want to get a CTFA. I want to earn my certification to really show that I have the chops in this area. We have this shrinking pool of expertise. We have a lack of knowledge, a lack of formal education, and an apprenticeship model that doesn’t scale. On top of, with the individual side and the corporate side, this massive wealth transfer and an explosion of trust complexity that’s all taking place at the same time. Frazer Rice (08:31.918)One of the issues at the corporate level too is that as you say that the impregnance model is not necessarily the best way to do it. They’re cutting back on training programs. The business model around being a trustee or even a specific trustee does not make the big money. And so the ability for those types of institutions to develop the people.who ultimately are now in a very sort of pro-employee environment where there’s such a demand for trustees that they can kind of switch around and get a 10 or 20 % bump each time they go because people are desperate to have them. There’s a real cavern there to try to create the permanence that you’re looking for in a structure that really rewards consistency over time, especially as it relates to discretion and process of decision-making. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (09:23.15)Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that leads to this revolving door in the industry, because people are just trying to make more money and they’re going and bouncing to different trust companies. And there isn’t that backfill. Just because it’s a trust company and there’s policies and procedures, trusteeship is about relationships that you make with your beneficiaries, the relationships that you develop with multiple generations in a family. And when you have somebody that’s acting and serving in that and they move, they leave, they’re no longer acting and serving in that capacity, a new personality comes into the mix and it can really be disruptive. So having that consistency and minimizing the attrition is so valuable. Frazer Rice (10:06.766)The other thing I try to bring up, especially to individual trustees, is that the thing that you’re signing up for is probably going to look a lot different in five or 10 or 15 years when people are aged on, they remarry, they have kids, etc. That the conditions are a lot different than what they were before. And it’s going to be difficult to take on a structure that has eight people when before there were two. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (10:37.517)Yes, and that’s that complexity, that increased sophistication and complexity of trust structures that are available now to people. With the increase in the exemption, these trust structures, they’re not necessarily changed. For example, qualified personal residence trust, if people really need that anymore, but there’s a ton of them sitting around there. Are trustees properly administering it? Did you actually transfer the real estate into the trust at the time? So there’s all kinds of sophisticated structures that the trustees may or may not have the right skills. But they’re saddled with having to do it. Frazer Rice (11:19.47)Let’s take a step back and just talk about the functions of a trustee for a second. I break them down basically into three. Which is the first one. You have to administer the trust, meaning you have to dot the I’s, cross the T’s, make sure things get executed, tax returns are filed, statements get sent out to the extent that that happens, and that the administration of a structure like that occurs. Then I talk about the concept that the investments have to be made monitored moved around decided and that they’re appropriate for all classes of beneficiary that are in there and then the distribution function which is The assets have to be distributed according to the law. First the trust then maybe the intent or the law if everything is silent and that those three things are very different components and that it’s tough to find somebody who’s great at all three housed within one brain. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (12:20.217)Yeah, I agree with that 100%. It is a three legged stool. It’s the investments, the administration and the distributions. And in that administration umbrella in and of itself, there’s a tremendous amount of work that sort of goes unsung. know, it’s not the sexy stuff where you’re investing and making a bunch of money for your income beneficiaries and managing to preserve the corpus for your principal or your remainder beneficiaries. And it’s certainly not the personal interaction that you’re doing with your beneficiary day to day. Making distributions, helping them, seeing the product of that help. It’s the making sure you file ax returns are properly. Understanding how to read that tax return. Even if you’re not preparing it, making a proper selection on the accountant that you’re using to prepare those tax returns if you’re not preparing it. Make sure to set up statements properly, make sure that in this world of silent trust documents that you’re not sending a statement to somebody who’s not supposed to have it. Communicating with beneficiaries on an even keel. Making sure that you’re not inadvertently violating your duty of impartiality because it’s more than just a substantive duty, there’s a procedural duty as well. That’s really, really challenging to find within one human being, let alone add on top of it somebody who’s financially savvy enough to understand investments and all of the different complex investment tools that are out there, as well as having the personality and the interpersonal skills to keep beneficiaries engaged and happy. Frazer Rice (13:56.426)Just on top of that, the EQ, the bedside manner, and the ability to simplify the complex, et cetera. At the same time, that dedicated note taker that is able to document everything that happens within a decision. Whether distribution or investment or otherwise, that it’s just two different people most times. I find that something falls apart as time goes on. Ultimately if things aren’t laid out correctly, that’s when conflict starts to simmer. Then you know if there is something that’s wrong. That’s allowed to compound that’s where you get into a huge problem later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (14:36.922)It’s all that feeling. People are behaving in ways that they may or may not be able to articulate their emotional proximity to. When you’re talking with beneficiaries. There’s something simmering under the surface that you inherited because you’re a trustee. You may not even be aware of it because the beneficiaries may not even be able to articulate it. You have to have a certain sense. A gut check of feelings of rntuitively being able to read what’s going on under the surface. To pull it out of people in a very balanced and even keel way. It’s not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. On top of financial literacy and personal liability and executive functioning skills, being detail oriented, making sure your documentation is not overly explicit. isn’t, you know, scarce. You’re now wondering how and why did you make those decisions? People don’t think about the decisions that they make on a day to day basis. We don’t think in a way to articulate why I made this decision. Why I exercised this type of judgment. And that’s what we’re being asked to do as trustees is to document what is my decision making process? Why am I making the decision? What are my factors involved in making that decision in a way that’s defensible. If we ever need to defend it. Frazer Rice (16:05.292)Well, in favoring one class of people over another is usually where the rubber hits the road on this. People who are used to seeing the income from a trust and don’t want that touched come hell or high water. Then future beneficiaries who’d like to see the trust go from X to 2X to 5X. So that they have something larger to enjoy. You have a natural tension that you have to manage. It’s just not easy. If you don’t document the hows and whys of what you’re doing, you set yourself up for a problem. From one class or another looking at you saying, you you should have done it differently. To go back to that liability component. You’re the only one who sits in the chair of having made that decision. You’re the one with the bullseye on your back when it’s called to account. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (16:53.093)That’s right, that is exactly right. And now add on top of it, you’re just named because you’re Uncle Joe and everybody goes to Uncle Joe. You have no technical background and you just don’t know the landmines that are there. You don’t know what you don’t know. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we were able to create a pipeline of really sophisticated entry level employees or folks that are, you know sophisticated in financial literacy that now want to take the job to become trustees, that we were able to give them this technical roadmap for what the job actually is and then have them get the ability to apprentice on all of those policies and procedures. What does this corporation do? How do we document things? When you’re trying to learn it all at one time, it’s like drinking from a fire hose. Let’s give people the ability to really have a chance at doing it successfully. Frazer Rice (17:53.048)So let’s dive into that pipeline issue for a second. We already diagnosed that the, let’s call it the trust companies or the banks are, they’re just not resourced enough. They can’t run people through an internal school to do it quote unquote correctly. The apprentice model really kicks in. Which means you’re at the sort of mercy of what people are good at, not good at, et cetera. People turn over quickly so that apprenticeship doesn’t even work anymore. The RIAs I think are the worst place to learn about this type of thing. They have a completely different modus operandi as far as keeping clients happy. The word fiduciary means something so different to them than it does to an actual trustee. I wouldn’t feel good about the training on that front to sort of create trustees And then so law schools. They’re they’re just trying to create people the trust in the states vertical as a general matter. Let alone trying to delineate into a trustee situation. You’re putting the pipeline together and you put these programs together. How do you stitch together the needs and what does that manifest itself into? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (19:07.642)So that’s a really, really good question. I think that the very first place that we start with answering that question is advising on a trust as an attorney. It’s different from the administration of a trust and the skills that you need for that. So when you create a program like this where you’re trying to teach about trust management. You have to start with the technical skill. The legal side of what is it that we’re even doing? What is a trust? What are the fiduciary duties? Where do they come from? Then we have to, after we teach or create a structure or foundation on what the legality is. Now we go into how does this translate into administration? So when I created the programs, I looked at what’s the law they need to know? What is the level of sophistication of the student? And what do I need to, from a foundational perspective, teach first? What are the building blocks? And then how do I translate that into administration? The one thing that I have found is trust law does not equal investment management. So if people are coming along… Frazer Rice (20:26.254)No question. I’m nodding audibly at that comment. I like that. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (20:31.226)Your fiduciary duties as a trustee are fundamentally different than those of an RIA, where some RIAs are not even fiduciaries by law. They’re not. So being able to delineate and explain where that line is, what makes you a fiduciary, what are those duties, after you know the legal basics. And taught to you at a level that you can understand. I don’t expect everybody to be a lawyer. And people have asked me time and time again, do I need to be a lawyer to know this? No, you don’t need to be a lawyer because you’re not advising on the law. You’re advising on the administration of a legal structure and how that administration affects the fiduciary duties that are inherent in the relationship. Then how those fiduciary duties are translated out to the beneficiary. That’s the way that I’ve always built these programs. Where do I start? Start with the law. Where do I go from there? Start with how the administration translates the law. And then how does that administration get heard by the beneficiary? Where does the RIA come into the mix? The RIA should not be dabbling in advising on trusts. They should know that they need to bring in somebody who has this particular skill. And if they’re not doing that, they’re doing the client a disservice by trying to give one-stop shop advice. Frazer Rice (22:06.85)Yep, no question about it. One of the things that…we delve into the world of trusts and their function, et cetera, is that you’re dealing with an ecosystem from client to outside advisor, whether RIA or even accountant, et cetera, that they’re looking for certainty and airtight. quality to these structures that you put them in place and then everything runs like a clock going forward. When in actuality, I think there is a bandwidth of risk around everything. And so it’s the poor trust officer or individual trustee who sometimes has to be the bearer of bad news to say, yeah, you know, I think this is going to work 98 % of the time, but there’s a 2 % problem here or we’ve got this to fix or something like that and everybody else sort of sighs with disappointment and gets mad at the administrative function when in actuality they’re really doing their job and trying to, you know, keep a lot of things that are spinning out of control kind of within view. How do you get a trust officer or that administrative function or even the full trustee function to be comfortable with that risk and everything that’s involved with that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (23:20.504)You have to start with explaining that there is risk and we’re not our job is not as a trustee to eliminate risk. Our job is to manage and identify risk. It is inherent in the job. There is going to be risk. No matter what you do, you cannot divorce risk from trusteeship. It’s a matter of identifying perceived risk and actual risk. And if you can teach that, if you can teach These are the things that are going to trigger a likely outcome. They’re gonna trigger a likely risk. Then you can essentially, you can’t foresee everything. I mean, there are things that are just gonna happen. But in a trust instrument, you’ve got contingency plan upon contingency plan upon contingency plan. That’s what the flexibility of those structures are building. We need to, as trustees, be able to recognize What is the risk with contingency plan A? The risk with B? What is the risk with C? How can we minimize the risk? And how can we make sure that we’re managing perception of risk versus actual risk? Frazer Rice (24:29.31)as someone who’s been in trust companies, advised trust companies, advised trustees, and advised clients, the lack of appreciation for the management of that risk and that that as the intersection of the business model of trusteeship and risk management and use of discretion and making hard decisions and even kind of an insurance quality around these structures, how do you fix that, where people place a level of respect on the job that I think is completely lacking in the wealth management ecosystem? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:09.089)Absolutely. It’s a tough one to answer. How do you fix it? First and foremost, I think that it’s a top-down fix, especially at a corporate trust company, a bank, and even an independent trust company that’s not affiliated with a bank. The management has to… really understand the function of the trust company. For so long, it’s been just an extra service that we provide and and we’ll do this, the back office trust company. It’s really, really important that the management recognizes what the functionality of the trust company is and stops treating it as sort of a back office stepchild. From the corporate level, I think that’s the very first place we start. Frazer Rice (25:38.478)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:57.818)The second place we start is investing in our trust officers, investing in the team, giving them the education that they need, continuing to give them education, providing training programs, whether they be in-house, external, bring in trainers. None of this is set it and forget it. At the individual level, I think it’s really, really important to have functions like the Individual Trustee Alliance, groups like that, where you have an ability to talk to other professionals that are doing what you’re doing. That’s another way to impress upon people that we have to manage the risk and we can’t do it all alone. Nobody knows everything. You really have to, you have to talk to other people. You have to engage. have to, what is it called when we were practicing law and we’re a little bit outside of our comfort zone, we have to consult with other people who know more than we do. It’s our obligation as lawyers. It’s the same thing with a trust company, with a trustee, whether you’re an individual or you’re not. Widen that circle. Frazer Rice (27:08.474)I think this is my idea for the day that there’s got to be a bit of a public relations campaign sort of describing what’s going on here because I think especially when we go into the family members that sort of occupy these roles, they have no earthly idea what they’re doing. They’re usually doing it for free. Everything’s hunky dory up until a point and everyone hopes that everyone is not going to sue each other if something goes wrong. But the level of wealth that’s being transferred now is now so significant that everyone sort of talks about, AI is going to get rid of lawyers. Nope, not in fiduciary litigation. I think that’s a medium term growth industry, especially around insurance, around ILITs, around revocable trusts, around elder care. But this is my advertisement for people who are in law school looking for a productive way to go. I think that one is going to be, I think that one’s recession proof, at least for a while until I retire anyway. So my thought is that awareness over these things, and it’s probably going to take a very difficult case or a class action suit, something like that, where somebody really gets hurt in order for that awareness to come up. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (28:24.922)Yeah, I would agree. think that some of the solutions would include better trust education, you know, whether it be for RIAs, lawyers. Trust in the states is a throwaway class in law school. And there are so many law schools that are essentially rolling it back because bar exams aren’t testing it anymore in a variety of states. And ACTEC is definitely working with the law schools to try and increase trust in the states being taught and certainly being tested. So education for lawyers coming out of law school, education for RIAs that are advising on trusts, education for trust officers, for trust administrators, trust professionals in general, clear role delineation. What is the role of the RIA? The role of the trust officer? What is the role of the trustee if they’re an individual trustee? And then creating a culture of collaboration on what we’re doing as a team for the beneficiary, not substitution, but collaboration with the advisors and the trustees. Frazer Rice (29:32.59)Let’s go into the role delineation for a second. About 20 or 30 years ago, the concept of bifurcating or sort of cordoning off the different functions I described before the investment, the administration and the distribution has come into vogue. I think that came out of frustration with bank trust companies where you got one set of advice for every trust that they had as far as investments and distributions and administration and a lot of modern larger families wanted something a little bit more specific to their needs. And that’s really turned, it’s exploded as an industry for increasing sophistication and size of wealth. Along those different functions, where maybe the administration goes to a professional trust company or a trust officer in the state that you want, Then there’s some intersection maybe in the distribution committee. And then the investment side of it is a bit of a free for all, think, depending on what you’re, dealing with. How do you educate the, that continued the delineation, but the coordination within those types of structures. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (30:41.275)Yeah, I think it’s really important. And I’m a Delaware lawyer. I’m licensed in multiple states, but Delaware is my home. It’s where I learned how to be a lawyer. It’s where I grew up as a lawyer. So this directed trust model that you’re describing, where you’re bifurcating, truly bifurcating these particular functionalities of a trustee, it originated in Delaware. sort of, we didn’t, I mean, we invented it, right? We codified it. It was being done, but we codified it. The idea of making sure that everybody understands what their function is and knowing that there’s a limit of liability that’s built into the instrument and communicating what that means to the RIA that is named in the document. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard companies, heard trust companies say, we’re advisor friendly. And I’m like, not unless you’re directed, you’re not. Frazer Rice (31:37.528) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”Yeah. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (31:40.439)If you are directed, you are 100 % advisor friendly because there’s no chance that that trustee is going to try and take the investment management. They’re not a portfolio manager. Not a clerical administrator. They’re not a passive rule follower. We need to identify what does that trustee actually do when they are an administrative or directed trustee. Clarify that role so that people who are engaged in this bifurcation, this structure where we’ve got a distribution committee, maybe it’s individuals who are close to the family, close to the beneficiaries, where you don’t have somebody who’s objectively uninvolved with the family members making decisions as to whether or not there’s a distribution that should be made. But also advising those rolls those advisors that your administrative trustee is not just a pencil put a paper pusher. Not just checking boxes. They really do add value to the role that they provide and making sure that everybody understands what each other are doing, having regular meetings amongst the team instead of operating in a vacuum or operating in a silo. And taking the approach of it’s not my job, misunderstanding trustee powers and the advisor’s authority. So when that’s delineated, when that’s really understood, not just by the advisors, but also by the beneficiaries, there are so many beneficiaries out there, Frazer, that have absolutely no idea that they actually hold all the cards. They don’t know. Frazer Rice (33:25.87)Along that line, so in the administrative, we just walked through pretty nicely. The distribution function is one that, let’s talk a little bit for a second about what it means to ask a trustee for a distribution and maybe the difference between income and principal and why having a steady hand at the wheel within that function, whether it’s a corporate trust company of qualified individual or family input in that function, why real good thought needs to go into how that’s staffed. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (34:04.73)Yeah, absolutely. 100%. In a corporate trustee ship or a corporate trust company structure, there’s always going to be distribution committees, right? So if you are the trustee, you’re going to have to go through a committee that’s looking at what your reasoning is for making that distribution. They’re asking questions about what have been the prior distributions? Have they come from principal? Have they come from income? What is the spend rate on that trust? How is this going to affect long-term spend rate? Is this an aberration? Is this something that’s gonna become a habit? Really understanding what the distribution, the guidelines are in the trust. What is the distribution standard? Making that decision? What are our factors? And how many people are at the table? Who’s communicating that to the beneficiary? Does the beneficiary know that the trust officer alone does not have the ability to say yes or no? That when they’re in this ecosystem of a corporate trust company, they have their checks and balances to make sure that that risk is being managed. So when you’re looking at corporate trust companies, are a lot of layers behind understanding what the distribution standard is, whether it’s hems or if it’s purely discretionary. The other thing that you need to look at when it’s not a corporate trustee and it’s an individual trustee is, how is that individual trustee making that decision? Are they doing it in a vacuum? Alone? Are they favoring one beneficiary over another because they like them more, you need to have some communication to the beneficiaries so that they understand what they are, what their interest is, what they are entitled to, if anything, and why the trustee stands in that position as the gatekeeper. And I really think in my heart of hearts, we need to make a shift from a gatekeeper trustee Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (36:16.708)to a beneficiary enhancement trustee, where the beneficiary is really taking on the understanding that the trustee is there to facilitate enhancing the beneficiary’s life. That even though the trust may have started at the outset as a tax strategy or something that the grantor decided they needed to do with the advice of counsel. At the end of the day, you wouldn’t have been named as the beneficiary if there wasn’t some sense of love or obligation even, that it’s for your benefit. It’s in the name. Beneficiary. Trustees need to understand that and beneficiaries need to be taught. Frazer Rice (36:54.958)Right. Frazer Rice (37:00.646)And it goes to the circle back to the notion of making sure that you write down the whys of the decision because ultimately if the concepts of favoritism or you didn’t communicate this or anything, the idea of having the beneficiary submit a budget but having them understand why they are submitting a budget and then if there is some discretion that’s happening around that decision that the data points that are informing that discretion, that’s gonna keep everybody safe a lot later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (37:32.666)Absolutely. I break it down into a couple of different factors. It’s fiduciary decision making. How is that fiduciary making the decisions they’re making? Why are they making those decisions? And who is being affected by the decisions? Document interpretation. Do you understand the document that you’re administering? If you don’t understand the document you’re administering, hopefully best case scenario, you know what you don’t know and you ask. But if you don’t understand the document and you don’t even have the wherewithal to say, hey, I need help to understand the document, it’s really problematic. The third part, balancing beneficiary interests. Really taking on board this idea of the principal income problem that all the assets in the trust are not the same. That some of it doesn’t at all in any way affect a certain class of beneficiaries. And at the same time, it’s inextricably intertwined in the way that it affects another class of beneficiaries. And then risk management and governance. How is this being governed? How are we managing perceived and actual risk as a trustee? Frazer Rice (38:40.13)The investment function, which I alluded to before, I see storm clouds on that horizon, not really at the RIA level, because I think there’s sort of a default mode that investment policy statements are in place. Diversification is a true commodity at this point. And I never really worry about an RIA sort of understanding how to invest to get to a certain expected return and deal with the risks and drawdown and all that stuff. The storm cloud I see is when individuals sit in that role and they are being tasked with, let’s call it quote unquote, overseeing concentration, meaning that trust is holding a building, farmland, a nuclear reactor, crypto, all of these different things that sometimes can be, A, they have their own different maintenance responsibilities that are not just looking at a fidelity statement, but that they also have their own volatility And, you know, in the case of a building, you got to make sure it’s managed correctly. are they going to get sued or the windows kept up, all of that stuff, and that there’s a whole different component there. And I’m waiting for the shoe to drop on some fact pattern there where somebody is sitting in the role of an investment advisor. It doesn’t say trustee in the document, so they don’t really think that they have trustee liability. But. they sit in that role and all of a sudden somebody finds 10 55 gallon drums of green fluid in the basement of a building and all of a sudden the trust has a big set of red brackets that say minus $100 million that you owe to the federal government and the EPA. How do you think about that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:21.454)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:25.242)That’s a heavy question. so the Delaware stock answer, obviously, direct it, right? It’s just to get the trust, cut off the liability. At the first, at the inception of your hypothetical is bad drafting, right? So if there’s no statement as to whether or not your investment advisor is acting as a fiduciary or not, Frazer Rice (40:35.042)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:52.836)What does your statute say? Does your statute impose that they are as a default a fiduciary or not? So that’s the very first step. That’s bad drafting. We need to know. But if it’s silent, let’s say it’s just a lousy document, there’s, God knows. Anybody who’s seen trust documents knows that, you’ve seen them all, right? And everything in between. Some are good, some are bad. If this is a bad one. Frazer Rice (41:13.08)Seen good and you’ve seen bad. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (41:20.079)Then we need to document the statute. If we can correct it, modify the document, let’s modify it. But if all of that can’t happen, then I would say the best way to handle it, make sure you have adequate insurance. mean, over-insure that, over-insure it. Make sure that there’s regular checks on the actual… Assets that are in the trust, if you have a concentration and that concentration is real estate, get the advice of counsel, put that bad boy into an LLC, get yourself some distance from the actual asset itself being held in the trust, hold an interest, hold a financial interest, push it down to the corporate level. But if you can’t do all of that and you’ve got those 500 gallon drums of green fluid and now you’re… Frazer Rice (42:14.286)You Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:15.371)You you’ve got a super fun site. What do you do? You don’t shy away from it. Have to address it head on. You got to take the accountability. You got to communicate and document, communicate and document some more. Talk to your beneficiaries. Make sure that they’re aware of where it went wrong, why it went wrong. Because I have found in my exposure in the industry over time and in reading case law, it’s when you’re trying to cover stuff up. Frazer Rice (42:43.913)Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:44.027)You’re just making more problems. Bad news doesn’t age well. It doesn’t get better over time. You have to approach it head on and make sure that there’s communication and documentation. Meet with your beneficiaries. If there’s a trusteeship where you are appointed as a trustee individually and you’re not having at least quarterly meetings with your beneficiaries, If you’re not going out and seeing the asset, if you’re not going out and making sure that the asset is properly custodyed, you’re not, you’re violating your fiduciary duty. You are not doing what you’re supposed to do. Frazer Rice (43:21.804)You brought up an interesting word there, custody, which is the administrative function, whether held corporately or individually, one of the major things you have to do is to safeguard the assets. And that’s a big two syllable word that carries a lot of weight with it. That custodial function, how do you teach the trust officers or the individual trustees where that starts and stops? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (43:48.579)Yeah, mean, custody is super, it’s a really touchy, touchy subject, especially with the dynamic way that trusts have developed in the current climate from tangibles. You know, I’ve got artwork and my beneficiary wants to hang the artwork in their house. Well, do you have custody? Has it been assigned to the trustee and how do you maintain that asset? Make sure nothing’s happening to it. Do make an appointment, go over to the, visit your artwork? What if it’s prize horses, you know? What if it’s, you know, a stud that, you know, we’re gonna need to breed and it’s gonna be the next Triple Crown winner? How do you make sure that the barn is properly safeguarded? It’s a really touchy subject, especially with things like tangibles and things like assets held away when you technically custody the asset, but you don’t have control over the asset. I think in the education part for custodying, what I do in my programs and when I teach this is I make sure that we talk about different types of asset classes. And what the risks, again, what are the risks that you run with these asset classes? How can we manage the actual and the perceived risk of holding that asset? Even if you have custody and name only, but you don’t have physical custody, how do you maintain your control over that asset? Because it’s really the C’s, right? The custody and control. Just because you don’t have custody doesn’t mean you don’t have control. So we have to make sure that there’s an education that’s provided about the different asset classes, whether it’s tangibles, intangibles, assets held away, if it’s a concentration of stock, if it’s crypto, and most trust companies are not taking crypto. I think that there’s like a circuitous way that they’re getting in right now, but it all boils down to education, isolating what the issue is and educating people on it. Frazer Rice (45:59.586)I’ll give you a third C, it’s consequences, which is what happens when you don’t understand these functions. on the crypto side of things, Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:01.786)Uhhh Frazer Rice (46:11.544)Holds the key to get to the crypto. What happens if that trust officer quits and walks away with the key and they’re like, well, multi-sigil figure this out. I’m like, okay, that’s not that. That doesn’t make me feel great at the moment. And now there have been some advances, which is good, but traps for the unwary to be sure. the good news too for crypto is for people who want exposure, the spot ETFs take away 90 % of the problems with that. But as we start to think about winding down here, because I have a feeling we could probably talk for four or five hours on this subject, when putting your programs together, what does a curriculum look like? And we don’t have to go through it bit by bit, but how does that work when someone comes to your program? How much time does it take? What’s the commitment? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:47.172)Yeah, I think so. Frazer Rice (46:54.851)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (47:06.33)So the program that I created that’s really available anywhere across the country is called the Peak Trust Management Certificate Program. Peak Trust Company, may be familiar with it. They have name rights because they gave the donation to the University of Delaware for me to build the program. So it’s housed at the Lerner College at the University of Delaware, but bears the name of Peak Trust Company. I look at five different things. The first thing is trust law and administration. So like I said previously when we were talking, you lay that foundation of what is the legal component of this? What is the baseline that people have to know? And then what is the administration? The second component is, and it’s inextricably intertwined as taxation. What is the income tax? What are the deductions? And now let’s take all of that income tax knowledge, individual income tax knowledge, and build on it with fiduciary income tax. What is DNI? What is FAI? How does it go out to the beneficiary? What’s the character of the distribution? How do we manage that? What are we deducting in the trust? So teaching taxation and not because trustees necessarily are tax preparers, but because the trustees obligation is to be able to understand and read that tax return, they need to know how to spot problems. So from my perspective, teaching fiduciary income tax is a critical component. It also helps. Yeah. Frazer Rice (48:38.828)No, no, I was gonna say no question about that. And there are elections to make, just because it doesn’t just go on autopilot, there are choices to be made so that if you’re the trustee, you may not have to prepare the tax return, but you may have to make a choice on the tax return and you’ve got to be informed because that can be an issue. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (48:58.651)65 day elections, perfect example, right? You just, you need to understand what your role is and how it overlaps with that of the CPA. The third part, of course, investments. Investments are inextricably intertwined, whether you’re doing it yourself as the trustee or you’re directed or even delegated, which is like the hairy scaries of every trusteeship known to man, because you’re not actually in control, but you’re responsible. So it’s the gray. When I build a program, because of the, you know, the directed trusteeship being so popular in today’s day and age, we have to talk about not just investments of, you know, marketable securities, not just the custody of tangibles, but also subscription documents, because so many alternatives are held in trust right now. unique assets, need to know how the trustee is actually carrying out their fiduciary duty when it comes to engaging in an investment that is an alternative investment. The fourth component is of course compliance. We cannot ever get away from compliance and I think we could do a whole nother podcast on compliance in trusteeship but. You know, it’s a regulated entity. And even if you’re an individual trustee and you’re not using what those compliance frameworks are, what the guidelines are by OCC, Reg 9, FDIC, if you’re not looking at that and using that as a guideline, don’t do the job. understanding KYC, BSA, AML, all of those compliance components that have tentacles. That’s the fourth part. And then for the fifth part of this program, because it’s specifically geared toward trustee education in trust companies, although it can be applicable, very applicable to individuals, is operations. I was very fortunate that I was able to partner with SCI on building the operations component. So we license their platform called Plato. It’s essentially their training platform. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (51:12.888)so that trustees can see how fees are set up, fees, that’s a whole other podcast, fees, statements, distributions, how are we doing this? How are we documenting everything? What are the logistics of the day-to-day operations? So that’s how I built the program and it’s available anywhere in the country. It’s 10 weeks, how long does it take? I would say from three to five hours a week of an investment that you’re making at a bare minimum. Obviously there’s a whole lot more of depth that you can go into. The resources are built in. But I would say 10 weeks, about 50 hours of time where you’re actually engaging with the material. And then I bring in guest lecturers on each different area of expertise for lack of a better description. And they get a certificate at the end, they get a digital badge, and now they really have something where they can add value day one in a trust company or as a trustee. Frazer Rice (52:17.902)With Delaware being, you one of the real gold standards as far as trust jurisdiction, I assume that everything that comes out of this program is pretty transportable to the other useful jurisdictions, let’s call it, within the country. know, the Tennessee’s, the South Dakota’s, the Nevada’s, the Alaska’s, Wyoming’s, New Hampshire’s, et cetera. Obviously, there are hairs to split with different foibles in their law, but everything that you’re describing sounds like works everywhere else. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (52:47.928)And I’ve always taken the approach, you’re 100 % correct, I’ve always taken the approach of UTC. I base everything off of UTC and if there’s something different or unique based upon the jurisdiction that you’re in, I always encourage people you have to look at your statute, you have to look at the jurisdiction that you’re actually practicing this in and administering in. I use Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska as examples quite often when we’re talking about the directed stuff, but By and large, it’s UTC. Frazer Rice (53:20.966)It just a weird subset. So special needs trusts and islets, which are two types of trusts, very specific. One holds life insurance. The other is designed to really take care of people who can’t take care of themselves. And they are types of trusts that a lot of trust companies don’t like to take on because the liability is harder or the profit margin is less. For those individuals who get the opportunity to participate in those and I put that in air quotes. How would you advise people to get ready for those types of situations? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (53:58.308)People who are in need of those types of trusts. Frazer Rice (54:02.122)Well, maybe both. The people who need those trusts, you know, they’re going to, they, you know, it’s almost like they get set up and then the staffing gets kind of figured out later, barely. And then, you know, the, for the people who end up taking on that role, they really have no idea of what they’re in for in a sense. Is there sort of like a mini, I’m not going to say a full course like you’re describing, but a crash course in, in what’s going on here and what can I do to keep myself safe? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (54:30.271)Unfortunately, no, I don’t know of one. and there isn’t much built in. there’s, we talk about a little bit in the program that I built, but, those are specialized and eyelets we talk about a little bit more there, you eyelets had their day and sort of they has done ish. but special needs trust. It’s a whole other ball game because It really incorporates state law and social security and Medicaid, all of those government benefits that I think you would need something more specialized than my program that I developed. And I don’t have a great answer for that, I’m sorry. Frazer Rice (55:12.482)No, there’s not a great answer for it because it’s tough. it’s a, all of which is to say for someone who’s involved with those things and feels confused by what’s going on, that’s one where it’s worth it to spend the money to lean on a dedicated Medicaid elder care, special needs type of lawyer on that front because there are traps for the unwary. Okay, now we’re starting to butt up against an hour here of. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:29.764)Yes . . . Frazer Rice (55:38.827)Four hours. No, I’m kidding listeners. We’re not going to talk for four hours, but How do people find your program and and then I’ll ask a bonus question at the end Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:49.339)So the program is on the University of Delaware’s website. You just type in peak trust management certificate and it’ll pop up. My name will be there. I think my picture might be there. It’s all over my LinkedIn. So if you look me up, you’re going to see the peak trust management certificate program. You can always email me, jennifer at zeldenlaw.com. Happy to push people into it. start, I’m in the new cohort right now. We’re two weeks into a 10 week program. But we have a new cohort starting in May. I think it’s May 4th. So may the fourth be with you. Frazer Rice (56:24.622)Terrific. So the final question here is really more of a crystal ball question. In this trust industry, trustee industry, what are the real, I’m going to say opportunities out there, and we’ve sort of painted a picture of doom and gloom and its low profit margin and things like that. Where can someone who is thinking from a business perspective about this find something? Once they’re properly educated about it and being able to participate in it. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (56:57.582)There are so many opportunities. There is an absolute need for good trustees everywhere. Trust companies from coast to coast, individual trustee alliance. People really, really need trustees. There’s tremendous opportunity with Heritage Institute, not the Heritage Foundation, but the Heritage Institute. There’s opportunities with…various family offices and various trust companies for education, for beneficiary education. So many opportunities out there. Trust companies are just clamoring for people. So if people are interested in becoming a trustee, getting that education, you will not have a hard time finding a job. Like you said, it’s basically recession proof. This wealth is going to transfer. We need sophisticated, knowledgeable trustees. on the receiving end of that transfer so that it happens correctly. Frazer Rice (57:56.578)I’d go so far as to say financial advisors. I just gotta say, a CFP is useful, CFA is on your investment side, but something like this, you know so much more about how intergenerational wealth works than what’s happening in those particular situations that I think it helps people stand out when I see something like that on a resume. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (58:00.302) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”That’s all the podcast. I hear you. I hear you. Frazer Rice (58:24.386) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”All right, with that, Jennifer, it’s great to catch up and I will have all of your information on the show notes and I will either see you at the ITA conference in Dallas or what I’m down in Delaware next. More Around “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” BUILDING A TRUST COMPANY TENNESSEE AS A JURISDICTION DIRECTED TRUSTEES DELAWARE WELL BEING TRUST THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/ Keywords for THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges trusteeship, wealth transfer, trust management, fiduciary duties, trust education, estate planning, risk management, trust administration, individual trustees, trust companies, the trustee crisis, navigating the challenges, the great wealth transfer,

In this week's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony walk through the 10 harsh fitness truths almost everyone runs into at some point in their journey. Things like why changing your body often means changing your identity, why health doesn't always look like fitness, and why progress usually takes way longer than you expect. They also talk about failure, comparison, obsessive “healthy” habits, and why most of your results actually come from what you do outside the gym. It's an honest look at what it really takes to make progress when the motivation fades and the work gets boring.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:37) New life will cost your old
(8:12) Health ≠ fitness
(13:41) Some people have to work harder(20:18) Even when doing things right, you'll still fail
(25:03) 10 miles into the woods(30:34) Some people start out making healthy choices only to later develop obsessive eating and workout habits
(38:12) It's fine to admire other people, but don't compare yourself to them
(45:22) Mental health is just as crucial(47:53) Most results come from what you do outside of the gym
(49:20) Consistency > Perfection

In this episode of the LSCRE Podcast, Rob Beardsley and Craig McGrouther unpack what's really happening in today's multifamily market - and why chasing “home run” deals may be the fastest way to lose investor trust.After meeting with dozens of investors at the Best Ever Conference, a clear theme emerged: value-add fatigue, rising skepticism around aggressive projections, and a growing demand for certainty over hype.                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Chapters: 00:00 Intro02:25 Why Value-Add Isn't Working Like It Used To09:08 LSCRE's 2025–2026 Acquisition Strategy12:07 What Makes LSCRE Different15:19 Long-Term Strategy & 1031 Compounding19:33 Why Fund Managers Should Avoid Big Swings23:28 The Case for Longer Hold Periods25:37 Preserve at Copper Springs UpdateTopics covered:• Why high IRR multifamily deals come with hidden downside• The real risk behind “2X projections”• Is the value-add strategy breaking down?• How new supply and concessions are changing apartment investing• The return of cap rate spreads between Class A, B, and C assets• Why investing in A locations beats upgrading C properties• The filtering-up effect happening across multifamily• Why fund managers must prioritize capital preservation• Certainty of execution vs swinging for outsized returnsIn a market where rent growth has cooled and supply has surged, the operators who survive aren't the ones chasing upside — they're the ones protecting investor capital and positioning for long-term durability.If you're a passive investor, capital raiser, or multifamily operator navigating the 2026 cycle, this conversation will reshape how you think about risk, projections, and strategy.

In this week's episode, Marianna and Tony cover four highly requested topics in one focused, efficient conversation. They review the Phase 3 trial results on Retatrutide and what the data actually demonstrates, discuss how L-Theanine works and when supplementation may be useful, explain the science behind newbie gains and how to maximize early training adaptations, and close with a practical look at microwaves and their role in food preparation. This episode delivers concise, evidence-based insights designed to help you make smarter decisions without overcomplicating the process.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:01) Retatrutide (15:32) L-Theanine
(23:09) Science of Newbie Gains
(32:17) Microwaves

You might look at other people and see them as confident, but despite your experience and successes, you still doubt yourself at times. In this conversation with Tara LaFon Gooch, 2X bestselling author and TEDx speaker, she shares her perspective - confidence is not a personality trait, it is a practice. It is not something you are born with, it is something you build. We explore why so many capable leaders chase success, when in fact, success is the byproduct of confidence. When confidence increases, competence is perceived to increase, trust strengthens and opportunities follow. This is not about projecting arrogance. It is about building self-trust. If confidence has ever felt elusive to you, this episode will give you practical ways to start. What You Will Learn: Why confidence is learnable, not innate Tara's GRASP framework for sustainable confidence How gratitude strengthens self-belief and leadership presence The link between confidence, trust and perceived competence Why small compounded action creates sustainable change How environment and purpose influence your level of confidence Confidence is not for everyone else. It is available for you too. Tara LaFon Gooch, MBA, is the CEO of Best Branding Solutions, a 2X bestselling author, international TEDx speaker, and host of the GRASP Confidence podcast, a top-ranked personal development show for leaders and high performers. Known for her GRASP Method (Gratitude, Responsibility, Action, Sight, Purpose), Tara helps leaders, speakers, and entrepreneurs build authentic confidence, expand their influence, and step boldly into their purpose. Resources: Find all links to connect with Tara LaFon Gooch here: https://tr.ee/ppB6xE9Q-m Buy Victoria's book, Become a Global Leader:https://culturecuppa.com/book/ Follow me on LinkedIn for more strategies, ideas, skills and tips: https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoria-rennoldson

In today's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down the five habits that might be killing your progress even if you train hard and track your lifts. They shift the focus outside the gym and explain how low daily movement, too much extra activity, heavily processed food choices, unmanaged stress, and poor sleep can quietly cancel out your results. If you feel stuck despite doing the work, this episode helps you pinpoint what is actually holding you back and shows you where to tighten things up so your training finally pays off.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(7:20) Not Active Outside Workouts(15:13) Too Active Outside The Gym(21:15) Processed Food Over Whole Foods(28:52) Not Managing Stress(39:08) Poor Sleep

Honeycomb Co-founder and CTO Charity Majors explains why measuring the right engineering metrics in the age of AI matters more than chasing numbers.Topics Include:Charity Majors introduces Honeycomb as the original observability company for complex systemsHoneycomb solves high cardinality problems across millions of individual customer experiencesTheir MCP tool ranked top five in Stack Overflow's most-used listCanva lets developers interact with production software directly from their IDEAI acts as an amplifier requiring strong reliability and observability foundationsMeasuring success requires multiple metrics to avoid gaming single numbersHoneycomb adopted Intercom's 2X productivity challenge enlisting employees to identify gainsWriting code was never the hard part even before generative AI arrivedHoneycomb created AI values prioritizing transparency and emotional safety for employeesStaff tested boundaries on resources and environmental impact prompting honest discussionsHoneycomb acquired Grok and shipped Query Assistant Canvas and MCP productsFuture concerns include AI economics shifting and AI-native developers lacking foundational expertiseParticipants:Charity Majors – Co-Founder/CTO, Honeycomb.ioSee how Amazon Web Services gives you the freedom to migrate, innovate, and scale your software company at https://aws.amazon.com/isv/

In today's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down the closest thing to a real life “secret code” for looking fit, feeling good, and staying healthy long term. They walk through 10 habits that the healthiest people do daily almost on autopilot, from staying active all day and listening to hunger cues to tracking something that matters, drinking more water, and actually prioritizing sleep and stress. They also talk protein, lifting, and why having a simple plan for meals makes the whole thing easier without turning your life into a full time fitness project. If you want structure that actually works in real life, this one gives you the framework.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(4:10) Extremely Active Through the Day
(9:13) View Food as Optional
(15:20) Always Measuring Something
(20:27) Do Not Drink or Smoke
(23:24) Obsessed with Water
(28:01) Take Stress Seriously
(31:15) Love and Prioritize Sleep
(34:54) Primarily Whole Foods Diet
(38:46) Lift Heavy Several Times a Week
(40:05) Plan Everything

In today's episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony break down how to lose weight without tracking a single calorie. Yes, fat loss requires a calorie deficit, but no, you don't need to log every bite of food for the rest of your life. The real goal is building simple, realistic systems around food, movement, and recovery that make the deficit happen automatically. This episode shows you how to engineer your environment so fat loss feels predictable, sustainable, and way less exhausting.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(4:53) Why calorie tracking works(10:05) When tracking doesn't make sense(16:50) Step 1: Protein anchor each meal(21:16) Step 2: Fiber anchor each meal(30:00) Step 3: 10k steps daily(33:18) Step 4: Slowing down(44:12) Step 5: Stop fighting biology(49:45) When a calorie count actually matters

In this episode of Microdose Monday, we take a quick dive into four intriguing topics. Discover how thick thighs might actually be lifesaving according to various studies. Learn the direct vs. indirect impacts of hormones on weight and fat loss. Understand the updates to the new food pyramid and dietary guidelines, highlighting concerns about the emphasis on saturated fats and the misunderstanding around grains. Lastly, a new study on intermittent fasting reveals that the real benefits come from calorie restriction rather than the timing of meals. Packed with data, insights, and actionable advice, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate their health and fitness journey with science-backed information.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(00:00) Introduction (01:40) The Science Behind Thick Thighs(11:02) New Food Pyramid(22:22) Hormones and Weight Loss(33:18) Intermittent Fasting

From the archive - This episode was originally recorded and published in 2022. Our interviews on Entrepreneurs On Fire are meant to be evergreen, and we do our best to confirm that all offers and URL's in these archive episodes are still relevant. Austin Netzley is the founder of 2X and author of the updated book, From 6 to 7 Figures. Top 3 Value Bombs 1. A big key to success is not as sexy as a lot of gurus out there talk about. Think about operational excellence, turning your business into a machine that can thrive without you. If you take that perspective, it's going to lead to a very healthy business. 2. Make the strategic decisions on how you're going to be different, how you're going to solve real problems, and who your customer is. It will make your entrepreneur life much easier. 3. Systems make things much more repeatable, consistent, and not reliant on you. Get a FREE copy of the updated & expanded book for a limited-time only - From 6 to 7 Figures Sponsors HighLevel - The ultimate all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs, marketers, coaches, and agencies. Learn more at HighLevelFire.com. Freedom Circle - A powerful community of entrepreneurs led by JLD. Are you ready to go from idea to income in 90-days? Visit Freedom-Circle.com to learn more.

Welcome back to Fitness Stuff for Normal People. On this episode, Marianna and Tony walk through seven things you can do to make a calorie deficit suck less because while “eat less than you burn” is simple on paper, it's much harder to execute in real life. They break down why fat loss feels so difficult and the practical adjustments that make it easier to stick with, from managing hunger and sleep to setting up your environment so willpower isn't doing all the work. If you're in a deficit and feeling like it's starting to wear on you, this episode helps you focus on what actually matters and make the process more sustainable.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(2:16) Map vs territory(5:39) Protect sleep like it's part of your diet(10:33) Eat a high-protein diet(20:28) Engineer your environment so willpower barely matters(26:14) Don't cut out foods you enjoy(34:58) Learn how to cook and understand your way around the kitchen(40:51) Play with meal timing(44:55) Mini cut vs normal cut

On this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Tony and Marianna walk through a complete, evidence-based guide to setting up a lean bulk. They explain how to maximize muscle growth while minimizing fat gain during a bulking or muscle-building phase, covering how to properly set calories and macros and what actually matters in training. The conversation focuses on how to build workouts that support muscle growth without unnecessary extremes or confusion. By the end of the episode, listeners will have everything they need to confidently take themselves through a lean bulk or muscle-building phase.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutTimestamps(6:15) Lean vs Dirty Bulk(12:20) How To Train(24:25) Calorie Goals(33:29) Protein Goals(37:36) Misc. Questions

Last year, you may have stumbled across a press story or social media post about a 40-year-old man who decided to play college baseball at the JUCO level. Well, that man is Aaron Rouselle, and he is our special guest on this joint episode of In the Booth hosted by Flobo Boyce and the Black Baseball Mixtape podcast. Coach Rouselle is a true inspiration to anyone with a dream. Yes, he played college baseball at an advanced age, but he is also a 2X liver transplant survivor, a cancer survivor, he had shingles, and he even had mold growing in his lungs. The fact that Aaron is with us today is indeed a miracle. He now leads young men in the game and teaches them more than baseball. He teaches his players about life. This episode is in partnership with the Players Alliance, Numbers Game Scorebooks, and Minority Prospects.

On this episode of Fitness Stuff for Normal People, Marianna and Tony rank the biggest fitness and health trends of 2025 using a tier list format, from S Tier trends that are actually worth paying attention to to F Tier trends you can safely ignore. They talk through what's helpful, what's overhyped, and what's just confusing online, covering everything from supplements and diets to wearables, recovery tools, and popular wellness trends. If you've ever wondered which trends are worth trying and which ones you don't need to stress about, this episode helps you sort through the noise.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkout

Send us a textOn the latest episode of The Lost In The Sauce Podcast, Sauce is joined by Grammy-nominated and 2X-time Dove Award winner Aaron Cole. On this episode, Sauce and Aaron sit down to discuss his journey through life and music, from growing up in Bristol, VA, to moving to Nashville to make the album “Sorry I Changed.” They also talk about the new EP “Where Do We Go From Here,” marriage, fatherhood, and much more. More! Links For Aaron Cole | https://aaroncole.lnk.to/wdwgfhIG | https://www.instagram.com/iamaaroncole?igsh=b3pxOW5yOXJwZm9nIntro | Aaron Cole - Refuge / Aaron Cole & nobigdyl - MAN ABOVEPass The Aux Segment | Aaron Cole - I Love ItPodcast Platforms | https://linktr.ee/Lostinthesauce5Sauce IG | https://www.instagram.com/sauceville_615/

Happy New Year! You may have noticed that in 2025 we had moved toward YouTube as our primary podcasting platform. As we'll explain in the next State of Latent Space post, we'll be doubling down on Substack again and improving the experience for the over 100,000 of you who look out for our emails and website updates!We first mentioned Artificial Analysis in 2024, when it was still a side project in a Sydney basement. They then were one of the few Nat Friedman and Daniel Gross' AIGrant companies to raise a full seed round from them and have now become the independent gold standard for AI benchmarking—trusted by developers, enterprises, and every major lab to navigate the exploding landscape of models, providers, and capabilities.We have chatted with both Clementine Fourrier of HuggingFace's OpenLLM Leaderboard and (the freshly valued at $1.7B) Anastasios Angelopoulos of LMArena on their approaches to LLM evals and trendspotting, but Artificial Analysis have staked out an enduring and important place in the toolkit of the modern AI Engineer by doing the best job of independently running the most comprehensive set of evals across the widest range of open and closed models, and charting their progress for broad industry analyst use.George Cameron and Micah-Hill Smith have spent two years building Artificial Analysis into the platform that answers the questions no one else will: Which model is actually best for your use case? What are the real speed-cost trade-offs? And how open is “open” really?We discuss:* The origin story: built as a side project in 2023 while Micah was building a legal AI assistant, launched publicly in January 2024, and went viral after Swyx's retweet* Why they run evals themselves: labs prompt models differently, cherry-pick chain-of-thought examples (Google Gemini 1.0 Ultra used 32-shot prompts to beat GPT-4 on MMLU), and self-report inflated numbers* The mystery shopper policy: they register accounts not on their own domain and run intelligence + performance benchmarks incognito to prevent labs from serving different models on private endpoints* How they make money: enterprise benchmarking insights subscription (standardized reports on model deployment, serverless vs. managed vs. leasing chips) and private custom benchmarking for AI companies (no one pays to be on the public leaderboard)* The Intelligence Index (V3): synthesizes 10 eval datasets (MMLU, GPQA, agentic benchmarks, long-context reasoning) into a single score, with 95% confidence intervals via repeated runs* Omissions Index (hallucination rate): scores models from -100 to +100 (penalizing incorrect answers, rewarding ”I don't know”), and Claude models lead with the lowest hallucination rates despite not always being the smartest* GDP Val AA: their version of OpenAI's GDP-bench (44 white-collar tasks with spreadsheets, PDFs, PowerPoints), run through their Stirrup agent harness (up to 100 turns, code execution, web search, file system), graded by Gemini 3 Pro as an LLM judge (tested extensively, no self-preference bias)* The Openness Index: scores models 0-18 on transparency of pre-training data, post-training data, methodology, training code, and licensing (AI2 OLMo 2 leads, followed by Nous Hermes and NVIDIA Nemotron)* The smiling curve of AI costs: GPT-4-level intelligence is 100-1000x cheaper than at launch (thanks to smaller models like Amazon Nova), but frontier reasoning models in agentic workflows cost more than ever (sparsity, long context, multi-turn agents)* Why sparsity might go way lower than 5%: GPT-4.5 is ~5% active, Gemini models might be ~3%, and Omissions Index accuracy correlates with total parameters (not active), suggesting massive sparse models are the future* Token efficiency vs. turn efficiency: GPT-5 costs more per token but solves Tau-bench in fewer turns (cheaper overall), and models are getting better at using more tokens only when needed (5.1 Codex has tighter token distributions)* V4 of the Intelligence Index coming soon: adding GDP Val AA, Critical Point, hallucination rate, and dropping some saturated benchmarks (human-eval-style coding is now trivial for small models)Links to Artificial Analysis* Website: https://artificialanalysis.ai* George Cameron on X: https://x.com/georgecameron* Micah-Hill Smith on X: https://x.com/micahhsmithFull Episode on YouTubeTimestamps* 00:00 Introduction: Full Circle Moment and Artificial Analysis Origins* 01:19 Business Model: Independence and Revenue Streams* 04:33 Origin Story: From Legal AI to Benchmarking Need* 16:22 AI Grant and Moving to San Francisco* 19:21 Intelligence Index Evolution: From V1 to V3* 11:47 Benchmarking Challenges: Variance, Contamination, and Methodology* 13:52 Mystery Shopper Policy and Maintaining Independence* 28:01 New Benchmarks: Omissions Index for Hallucination Detection* 33:36 Critical Point: Hard Physics Problems and Research-Level Reasoning* 23:01 GDP Val AA: Agentic Benchmark for Real Work Tasks* 50:19 Stirrup Agent Harness: Open Source Agentic Framework* 52:43 Openness Index: Measuring Model Transparency Beyond Licenses* 58:25 The Smiling Curve: Cost Falling While Spend Rising* 1:02:32 Hardware Efficiency: Blackwell Gains and Sparsity Limits* 1:06:23 Reasoning Models and Token Efficiency: The Spectrum Emerges* 1:11:00 Multimodal Benchmarking: Image, Video, and Speech Arenas* 1:15:05 Looking Ahead: Intelligence Index V4 and Future Directions* 1:16:50 Closing: The Insatiable Demand for IntelligenceTranscriptMicah [00:00:06]: This is kind of a full circle moment for us in a way, because the first time artificial analysis got mentioned on a podcast was you and Alessio on Latent Space. Amazing.swyx [00:00:17]: Which was January 2024. I don't even remember doing that, but yeah, it was very influential to me. Yeah, I'm looking at AI News for Jan 17, or Jan 16, 2024. I said, this gem of a models and host comparison site was just launched. And then I put in a few screenshots, and I said, it's an independent third party. It clearly outlines the quality versus throughput trade-off, and it breaks out by model and hosting provider. I did give you s**t for missing fireworks, and how do you have a model benchmarking thing without fireworks? But you had together, you had perplexity, and I think we just started chatting there. Welcome, George and Micah, to Latent Space. I've been following your progress. Congrats on... It's been an amazing year. You guys have really come together to be the presumptive new gardener of AI, right? Which is something that...George [00:01:09]: Yeah, but you can't pay us for better results.swyx [00:01:12]: Yes, exactly.George [00:01:13]: Very important.Micah [00:01:14]: Start off with a spicy take.swyx [00:01:18]: Okay, how do I pay you?Micah [00:01:20]: Let's get right into that.swyx [00:01:21]: How do you make money?Micah [00:01:24]: Well, very happy to talk about that. So it's been a big journey the last couple of years. Artificial analysis is going to be two years old in January 2026. Which is pretty soon now. We first run the website for free, obviously, and give away a ton of data to help developers and companies navigate AI and make decisions about models, providers, technologies across the AI stack for building stuff. We're very committed to doing that and tend to keep doing that. We have, along the way, built a business that is working out pretty sustainably. We've got just over 20 people now and two main customer groups. So we want to be... We want to be who enterprise look to for data and insights on AI, so we want to help them with their decisions about models and technologies for building stuff. And then on the other side, we do private benchmarking for companies throughout the AI stack who build AI stuff. So no one pays to be on the website. We've been very clear about that from the very start because there's no use doing what we do unless it's independent AI benchmarking. Yeah. But turns out a bunch of our stuff can be pretty useful to companies building AI stuff.swyx [00:02:38]: And is it like, I am a Fortune 500, I need advisors on objective analysis, and I call you guys and you pull up a custom report for me, you come into my office and give me a workshop? What kind of engagement is that?George [00:02:53]: So we have a benchmarking and insight subscription, which looks like standardized reports that cover key topics or key challenges enterprises face when looking to understand AI and choose between all the technologies. And so, for instance, one of the report is a model deployment report, how to think about choosing between serverless inference, managed deployment solutions, or leasing chips. And running inference yourself is an example kind of decision that big enterprises face, and it's hard to reason through, like this AI stuff is really new to everybody. And so we try and help with our reports and insight subscription. Companies navigate that. We also do custom private benchmarking. And so that's very different from the public benchmarking that we publicize, and there's no commercial model around that. For private benchmarking, we'll at times create benchmarks, run benchmarks to specs that enterprises want. And we'll also do that sometimes for AI companies who have built things, and we help them understand what they've built with private benchmarking. Yeah. So that's a piece mainly that we've developed through trying to support everybody publicly with our public benchmarks. Yeah.swyx [00:04:09]: Let's talk about TechStack behind that. But okay, I'm going to rewind all the way to when you guys started this project. You were all the way in Sydney? Yeah. Well, Sydney, Australia for me.Micah [00:04:19]: George was an SF, but he's Australian, but he moved here already. Yeah.swyx [00:04:22]: And I remember I had the Zoom call with you. What was the impetus for starting artificial analysis in the first place? You know, you started with public benchmarks. And so let's start there. We'll go to the private benchmark. Yeah.George [00:04:33]: Why don't we even go back a little bit to like why we, you know, thought that it was needed? Yeah.Micah [00:04:40]: The story kind of begins like in 2022, 2023, like both George and I have been into AI stuff for quite a while. In 2023 specifically, I was trying to build a legal AI research assistant. So it actually worked pretty well for its era, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. So I was finding that the more you go into building something using LLMs, the more each bit of what you're doing ends up being a benchmarking problem. So had like this multistage algorithm thing, trying to figure out what the minimum viable model for each bit was, trying to optimize every bit of it as you build that out, right? Like you're trying to think about accuracy, a bunch of other metrics and performance and cost. And mostly just no one was doing anything to independently evaluate all the models. And certainly not to look at the trade-offs for speed and cost. So we basically set out just to build a thing that developers could look at to see the trade-offs between all of those things measured independently across all the models and providers. Honestly, it was probably meant to be a side project when we first started doing it.swyx [00:05:49]: Like we didn't like get together and say like, Hey, like we're going to stop working on all this stuff. I'm like, this is going to be our main thing. When I first called you, I think you hadn't decided on starting a company yet.Micah [00:05:58]: That's actually true. I don't even think we'd pause like, like George had an acquittance job. I didn't quit working on my legal AI thing. Like it was genuinely a side project.George [00:06:05]: We built it because we needed it as people building in the space and thought, Oh, other people might find it useful too. So we'll buy domain and link it to the Vercel deployment that we had and tweet about it. And, but very quickly it started getting attention. Thank you, Swyx for, I think doing an initial retweet and spotlighting it there. This project that we released. And then very quickly though, it was useful to others, but very quickly it became more useful as the number of models released accelerated. We had Mixtrel 8x7B and it was a key. That's a fun one. Yeah. Like a open source model that really changed the landscape and opened up people's eyes to other serverless inference providers and thinking about speed, thinking about cost. And so that was a key. And so it became more useful quite quickly. Yeah.swyx [00:07:02]: What I love talking to people like you who sit across the ecosystem is, well, I have theories about what people want, but you have data and that's obviously more relevant. But I want to stay on the origin story a little bit more. When you started out, I would say, I think the status quo at the time was every paper would come out and they would report their numbers versus competitor numbers. And that's basically it. And I remember I did the legwork. I think everyone has some knowledge. I think there's some version of Excel sheet or a Google sheet where you just like copy and paste the numbers from every paper and just post it up there. And then sometimes they don't line up because they're independently run. And so your numbers are going to look better than... Your reproductions of other people's numbers are going to look worse because you don't hold their models correctly or whatever the excuse is. I think then Stanford Helm, Percy Liang's project would also have some of these numbers. And I don't know if there's any other source that you can cite. The way that if I were to start artificial analysis at the same time you guys started, I would have used the Luther AI's eval framework harness. Yup.Micah [00:08:06]: Yup. That was some cool stuff. At the end of the day, running these evals, it's like if it's a simple Q&A eval, all you're doing is asking a list of questions and checking if the answers are right, which shouldn't be that crazy. But it turns out there are an enormous number of things that you've got control for. And I mean, back when we started the website. Yeah. Yeah. Like one of the reasons why we realized that we had to run the evals ourselves and couldn't just take rules from the labs was just that they would all prompt the models differently. And when you're competing over a few points, then you can pretty easily get- You can put the answer into the model. Yeah. That in the extreme. And like you get crazy cases like back when I'm Googled a Gemini 1.0 Ultra and needed a number that would say it was better than GPT-4 and like constructed, I think never published like chain of thought examples. 32 of them in every topic in MLU to run it, to get the score, like there are so many things that you- They never shipped Ultra, right? That's the one that never made it up. Not widely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it existed, but yeah. So we were pretty sure that we needed to run them ourselves and just run them in the same way across all the models. Yeah. And we were, we also did certain from the start that you couldn't look at those in isolation. You needed to look at them alongside the cost and performance stuff. Yeah.swyx [00:09:24]: Okay. A couple of technical questions. I mean, so obviously I also thought about this and I didn't do it because of cost. Yep. Did you not worry about costs? Were you funded already? Clearly not, but you know. No. Well, we definitely weren't at the start.Micah [00:09:36]: So like, I mean, we're paying for it personally at the start. There's a lot of money. Well, the numbers weren't nearly as bad a couple of years ago. So we certainly incurred some costs, but we were probably in the order of like hundreds of dollars of spend across all the benchmarking that we were doing. Yeah. So nothing. Yeah. It was like kind of fine. Yeah. Yeah. These days that's gone up an enormous amount for a bunch of reasons that we can talk about. But yeah, it wasn't that bad because you can also remember that like the number of models we were dealing with was hardly any and the complexity of the stuff that we wanted to do to evaluate them was a lot less. Like we were just asking some Q&A type questions and then one specific thing was for a lot of evals initially, we were just like sampling an answer. You know, like, what's the answer for this? Like, we didn't want to go into the answer directly without letting the models think. We weren't even doing chain of thought stuff initially. And that was the most useful way to get some results initially. Yeah.swyx [00:10:33]: And so for people who haven't done this work, literally parsing the responses is a whole thing, right? Like because sometimes the models, the models can answer any way they feel fit and sometimes they actually do have the right answer, but they just returned the wrong format and they will get a zero for that unless you work it into your parser. And that involves more work. And so, I mean, but there's an open question whether you should give it points for not following your instructions on the format.Micah [00:11:00]: It depends what you're looking at, right? Because you can, if you're trying to see whether or not it can solve a particular type of reasoning problem, and you don't want to test it on its ability to do answer formatting at the same time, then you might want to use an LLM as answer extractor approach to make sure that you get the answer out no matter how unanswered. But these days, it's mostly less of a problem. Like, if you instruct a model and give it examples of what the answers should look like, it can get the answers in your format, and then you can do, like, a simple regex.swyx [00:11:28]: Yeah, yeah. And then there's other questions around, I guess, sometimes if you have a multiple choice question, sometimes there's a bias towards the first answer, so you have to randomize the responses. All these nuances, like, once you dig into benchmarks, you're like, I don't know how anyone believes the numbers on all these things. It's so dark magic.Micah [00:11:47]: You've also got, like… You've got, like, the different degrees of variance in different benchmarks, right? Yeah. So, if you run four-question multi-choice on a modern reasoning model at the temperatures suggested by the labs for their own models, the variance that you can see on a four-question multi-choice eval is pretty enormous if you only do a single run of it and it has a small number of questions, especially. So, like, one of the things that we do is run an enormous number of all of our evals when we're developing new ones and doing upgrades to our intelligence index to bring in new things. Yeah. So, that we can dial in the right number of repeats so that we can get to the 95% confidence intervals that we're comfortable with so that when we pull that together, we can be confident in intelligence index to at least as tight as, like, a plus or minus one at a 95% confidence. Yeah.swyx [00:12:32]: And, again, that just adds a straight multiple to the cost. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.George [00:12:37]: So, that's one of many reasons that cost has gone up a lot more than linearly over the last couple of years. We report a cost to run the artificial analysis. We report a cost to run the artificial analysis intelligence index on our website, and currently that's assuming one repeat in terms of how we report it because we want to reflect a bit about the weighting of the index. But our cost is actually a lot higher than what we report there because of the repeats.swyx [00:13:03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And probably this is true, but just checking, you don't have any special deals with the labs. They don't discount it. You just pay out of pocket or out of your sort of customer funds. Oh, there is a mix. So, the issue is that sometimes they may give you a special end point, which is… Ah, 100%.Micah [00:13:21]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, we laser focus, like, on everything we do on having the best independent metrics and making sure that no one can manipulate them in any way. There are quite a lot of processes we've developed over the last couple of years to make that true for, like, the one you bring up, like, right here of the fact that if we're working with a lab, if they're giving us a private endpoint to evaluate a model, that it is totally possible. That what's sitting behind that black box is not the same as they serve on a public endpoint. We're very aware of that. We have what we call a mystery shopper policy. And so, and we're totally transparent with all the labs we work with about this, that we will register accounts not on our own domain and run both intelligence evals and performance benchmarks… Yeah, that's the job. …without them being able to identify it. And no one's ever had a problem with that. Because, like, a thing that turns out to actually be quite a good… …good factor in the industry is that they all want to believe that none of their competitors could manipulate what we're doing either.swyx [00:14:23]: That's true. I never thought about that. I've been in the database data industry prior, and there's a lot of shenanigans around benchmarking, right? So I'm just kind of going through the mental laundry list. Did I miss anything else in this category of shenanigans? Oh, potential shenanigans.Micah [00:14:36]: I mean, okay, the biggest one, like, that I'll bring up, like, is more of a conceptual one, actually, than, like, direct shenanigans. It's that the things that get measured become things that get targeted by labs that they're trying to build, right? Exactly. So that doesn't mean anything that we should really call shenanigans. Like, I'm not talking about training on test set. But if you know that you're going to be great at another particular thing, if you're a researcher, there are a whole bunch of things that you can do to try to get better at that thing that preferably are going to be helpful for a wide range of how actual users want to use the thing that you're building. But will not necessarily work. Will not necessarily do that. So, for instance, the models are exceptional now at answering competition maths problems. There is some relevance of that type of reasoning, that type of work, to, like, how we might use modern coding agents and stuff. But it's clearly not one for one. So the thing that we have to be aware of is that once an eval becomes the thing that everyone's looking at, scores can get better on it without there being a reflection of overall generalized intelligence of these models. Getting better. That has been true for the last couple of years. It'll be true for the next couple of years. There's no silver bullet to defeat that other than building new stuff to stay relevant and measure the capabilities that matter most to real users. Yeah.swyx [00:15:58]: And we'll cover some of the new stuff that you guys are building as well, which is cool. Like, you used to just run other people's evals, but now you're coming up with your own. And I think, obviously, that is a necessary path once you're at the frontier. You've exhausted all the existing evals. I think the next point in history that I have for you is AI Grant that you guys decided to join and move here. What was it like? I think you were in, like, batch two? Batch four. Batch four. Okay.Micah [00:16:26]: I mean, it was great. Nat and Daniel are obviously great. And it's a really cool group of companies that we were in AI Grant alongside. It was really great to get Nat and Daniel on board. Obviously, they've done a whole lot of great work in the space with a lot of leading companies and were extremely aligned. With the mission of what we were trying to do. Like, we're not quite typical of, like, a lot of the other AI startups that they've invested in.swyx [00:16:53]: And they were very much here for the mission of what we want to do. Did they say any advice that really affected you in some way or, like, were one of the events very impactful? That's an interesting question.Micah [00:17:03]: I mean, I remember fondly a bunch of the speakers who came and did fireside chats at AI Grant.swyx [00:17:09]: Which is also, like, a crazy list. Yeah.George [00:17:11]: Oh, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was something about, you know, speaking to Nat and Daniel about the challenges of working through a startup and just working through the questions that don't have, like, clear answers and how to work through those kind of methodically and just, like, work through the hard decisions. And they've been great mentors to us as we've built artificial analysis. Another benefit for us was that other companies in the batch and other companies in AI Grant are pushing the capabilities. Yeah. And I think that's a big part of what AI can do at this time. And so being in contact with them, making sure that artificial analysis is useful to them has been fantastic for supporting us in working out how should we build out artificial analysis to continue to being useful to those, like, you know, building on AI.swyx [00:17:59]: I think to some extent, I'm mixed opinion on that one because to some extent, your target audience is not people in AI Grants who are obviously at the frontier. Yeah. Do you disagree?Micah [00:18:09]: To some extent. To some extent. But then, so a lot of what the AI Grant companies are doing is taking capabilities coming out of the labs and trying to push the limits of what they can do across the entire stack for building great applications, which actually makes some of them pretty archetypical power users of artificial analysis. Some of the people with the strongest opinions about what we're doing well and what we're not doing well and what they want to see next from us. Yeah. Yeah. Because when you're building any kind of AI application now, chances are you're using a whole bunch of different models. You're maybe switching reasonably frequently for different models and different parts of your application to optimize what you're able to do with them at an accuracy level and to get better speed and cost characteristics. So for many of them, no, they're like not commercial customers of ours, like we don't charge for all our data on the website. Yeah. They are absolutely some of our power users.swyx [00:19:07]: So let's talk about just the evals as well. So you start out from the general like MMU and GPQA stuff. What's next? How do you sort of build up to the overall index? What was in V1 and how did you evolve it? Okay.Micah [00:19:22]: So first, just like background, like we're talking about the artificial analysis intelligence index, which is our synthesis metric that we pulled together currently from 10 different eval data sets to give what? We're pretty much the same as that. Pretty confident is the best single number to look at for how smart the models are. Obviously, it doesn't tell the whole story. That's why we published the whole website of all the charts to dive into every part of it and look at the trade-offs. But best single number. So right now, it's got a bunch of Q&A type data sets that have been very important to the industry, like a couple that you just mentioned. It's also got a couple of agentic data sets. It's got our own long context reasoning data set and some other use case focused stuff. As time goes on. The things that we're most interested in that are going to be important to the capabilities that are becoming more important for AI, what developers are caring about, are going to be first around agentic capabilities. So surprise, surprise. We're all loving our coding agents and how the model is going to perform like that and then do similar things for different types of work are really important to us. The linking to use cases to economically valuable use cases are extremely important to us. And then we've got some of the. Yeah. These things that the models still struggle with, like working really well over long contexts that are not going to go away as specific capabilities and use cases that we need to keep evaluating.swyx [00:20:46]: But I guess one thing I was driving was like the V1 versus the V2 and how bad it was over time.Micah [00:20:53]: Like how we've changed the index to where we are.swyx [00:20:55]: And I think that reflects on the change in the industry. Right. So that's a nice way to tell that story.Micah [00:21:00]: Well, V1 would be completely saturated right now. Almost every model coming out because doing things like writing the Python functions and human evil is now pretty trivial. It's easy to forget, actually, I think how much progress has been made in the last two years. Like we obviously play the game constantly of like the today's version versus last week's version and the week before and all of the small changes in the horse race between the current frontier and who has the best like smaller than 10B model like right now this week. Right. And that's very important to a lot of developers and people and especially in this particular city of San Francisco. But when you zoom out a couple of years ago, literally most of what we were doing to evaluate the models then would all be 100% solved by even pretty small models today. And that's been one of the key things, by the way, that's driven down the cost of intelligence at every tier of intelligence. We can talk about more in a bit. So V1, V2, V3, we made things harder. We covered a wider range of use cases. And we tried to get closer to things developers care about as opposed to like just the Q&A type stuff that MMLU and GPQA represented. Yeah.swyx [00:22:12]: I don't know if you have anything to add there. Or we could just go right into showing people the benchmark and like looking around and asking questions about it. Yeah.Micah [00:22:21]: Let's do it. Okay. This would be a pretty good way to chat about a few of the new things we've launched recently. Yeah.George [00:22:26]: And I think a little bit about the direction that we want to take it. And we want to push benchmarks. Currently, the intelligence index and evals focus a lot on kind of raw intelligence. But we kind of want to diversify how we think about intelligence. And we can talk about it. But kind of new evals that we've kind of built and partnered on focus on topics like hallucination. And we've got a lot of topics that I think are not covered by the current eval set that should be. And so we want to bring that forth. But before we get into that.swyx [00:23:01]: And so for listeners, just as a timestamp, right now, number one is Gemini 3 Pro High. Then followed by Cloud Opus at 70. Just 5.1 high. You don't have 5.2 yet. And Kimi K2 Thinking. Wow. Still hanging in there. So those are the top four. That will date this podcast quickly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love it. I love it. No, no. 100%. Look back this time next year and go, how cute. Yep.George [00:23:25]: Totally. A quick view of that is, okay, there's a lot. I love it. I love this chart. Yeah.Micah [00:23:30]: This is such a favorite, right? Yeah. And almost every talk that George or I give at conferences and stuff, we always put this one up first to just talk about situating where we are in this moment in history. This, I think, is the visual version of what I was saying before about the zooming out and remembering how much progress there's been. If we go back to just over a year ago, before 01, before Cloud Sonnet 3.5, we didn't have reasoning models or coding agents as a thing. And the game was very, very different. If we go back even a little bit before then, we're in the era where, when you look at this chart, open AI was untouchable for well over a year. And, I mean, you would remember that time period well of there being very open questions about whether or not AI was going to be competitive, like full stop, whether or not open AI would just run away with it, whether we would have a few frontier labs and no one else would really be able to do anything other than consume their APIs. I am quite happy overall that the world that we have ended up in is one where... Multi-model. Absolutely. And strictly more competitive every quarter over the last few years. Yeah. This year has been insane. Yeah.George [00:24:42]: You can see it. This chart with everything added is hard to read currently. There's so many dots on it, but I think it reflects a little bit what we felt, like how crazy it's been.swyx [00:24:54]: Why 14 as the default? Is that a manual choice? Because you've got service now in there that are less traditional names. Yeah.George [00:25:01]: It's models that we're kind of highlighting by default in our charts, in our intelligence index. Okay.swyx [00:25:07]: You just have a manually curated list of stuff.George [00:25:10]: Yeah, that's right. But something that I actually don't think every artificial analysis user knows is that you can customize our charts and choose what models are highlighted. Yeah. And so if we take off a few names, it gets a little easier to read.swyx [00:25:25]: Yeah, yeah. A little easier to read. Totally. Yeah. But I love that you can see the all one jump. Look at that. September 2024. And the DeepSeek jump. Yeah.George [00:25:34]: Which got close to OpenAI's leadership. They were so close. I think, yeah, we remember that moment. Around this time last year, actually.Micah [00:25:44]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah, well, a couple of weeks. It was Boxing Day in New Zealand when DeepSeek v3 came out. And we'd been tracking DeepSeek and a bunch of the other global players that were less known over the second half of 2024 and had run evals on the earlier ones and stuff. I very distinctly remember Boxing Day in New Zealand, because I was with family for Christmas and stuff, running the evals and getting back result by result on DeepSeek v3. So this was the first of their v3 architecture, the 671b MOE.Micah [00:26:19]: And we were very, very impressed. That was the moment where we were sure that DeepSeek was no longer just one of many players, but had jumped up to be a thing. The world really noticed when they followed that up with the RL working on top of v3 and R1 succeeding a few weeks later. But the groundwork for that absolutely was laid with just extremely strong base model, completely open weights that we had as the best open weights model. So, yeah, that's the thing that you really see in the game. But I think that we got a lot of good feedback on Boxing Day. us on Boxing Day last year.George [00:26:48]: Boxing Day is the day after Christmas for those not familiar.George [00:26:54]: I'm from Singapore.swyx [00:26:55]: A lot of us remember Boxing Day for a different reason, for the tsunami that happened. Oh, of course. Yeah, but that was a long time ago. So yeah. So this is the rough pitch of AAQI. Is it A-A-Q-I or A-A-I-I? I-I. Okay. Good memory, though.Micah [00:27:11]: I don't know. I'm not used to it. Once upon a time, we did call it Quality Index, and we would talk about quality, performance, and price, but we changed it to intelligence.George [00:27:20]: There's been a few naming changes. We added hardware benchmarking to the site, and so benchmarks at a kind of system level. And so then we changed our throughput metric to, we now call it output speed, and thenswyx [00:27:32]: throughput makes sense at a system level, so we took that name. Take me through more charts. What should people know? Obviously, the way you look at the site is probably different than how a beginner might look at it.Micah [00:27:42]: Yeah, that's fair. There's a lot of fun stuff to dive into. Maybe so we can hit past all the, like, we have lots and lots of emails and stuff. The interesting ones to talk about today that would be great to bring up are a few of our recent things, I think, that probably not many people will be familiar with yet. So first one of those is our omniscience index. So this one is a little bit different to most of the intelligence evils that we've run. We built it specifically to look at the embedded knowledge in the models and to test hallucination by looking at when the model doesn't know the answer, so not able to get it correct, what's its probability of saying, I don't know, or giving an incorrect answer. So the metric that we use for omniscience goes from negative 100 to positive 100. Because we're simply taking off a point if you give an incorrect answer to the question. We're pretty convinced that this is an example of where it makes most sense to do that, because it's strictly more helpful to say, I don't know, instead of giving a wrong answer to factual knowledge question. And one of our goals is to shift the incentive that evils create for models and the labs creating them to get higher scores. And almost every evil across all of AI up until this point, it's been graded by simple percentage correct as the main metric, the main thing that gets hyped. And so you should take a shot at everything. There's no incentive to say, I don't know. So we did that for this one here.swyx [00:29:22]: I think there's a general field of calibration as well, like the confidence in your answer versus the rightness of the answer. Yeah, we completely agree. Yeah. Yeah.George [00:29:31]: On that. And one reason that we didn't do that is because. Or put that into this index is that we think that the, the way to do that is not to ask the models how confident they are.swyx [00:29:43]: I don't know. Maybe it might be though. You put it like a JSON field, say, say confidence and maybe it spits out something. Yeah. You know, we have done a few evils podcasts over the, over the years. And when we did one with Clementine of hugging face, who maintains the open source leaderboard, and this was one of her top requests, which is some kind of hallucination slash lack of confidence calibration thing. And so, Hey, this is one of them.Micah [00:30:05]: And I mean, like anything that we do, it's not a perfect metric or the whole story of everything that you think about as hallucination. But yeah, it's pretty useful and has some interesting results. Like one of the things that we saw in the hallucination rate is that anthropics Claude models at the, the, the very left-hand side here with the lowest hallucination rates out of the models that we've evaluated amnesty is on. That is an interesting fact. I think it probably correlates with a lot of the previously, not really measured vibes stuff that people like about some of the Claude models. Is the dataset public or what's is it, is there a held out set? There's a hell of a set for this one. So we, we have published a public test set, but we we've only published 10% of it. The reason is that for this one here specifically, it would be very, very easy to like have data contamination because it is just factual knowledge questions. We would. We'll update it at a time to also prevent that, but with yeah, kept most of it held out so that we can keep it reliable for a long time. It leads us to a bunch of really cool things, including breakdown quite granularly by topic. And so we've got some of that disclosed on the website publicly right now, and there's lots more coming in terms of our ability to break out very specific topics. Yeah.swyx [00:31:23]: I would be interested. Let's, let's dwell a little bit on this hallucination one. I noticed that Haiku hallucinates less than Sonnet hallucinates less than Opus. And yeah. Would that be the other way around in a normal capability environments? I don't know. What's, what do you make of that?George [00:31:37]: One interesting aspect is that we've found that there's not really a, not a strong correlation between intelligence and hallucination, right? That's to say that the smarter the models are in a general sense, isn't correlated with their ability to, when they don't know something, say that they don't know. It's interesting that Gemini three pro preview was a big leap over here. Gemini 2.5. Flash and, and, and 2.5 pro, but, and if I add pro quickly here.swyx [00:32:07]: I bet pro's really good. Uh, actually no, I meant, I meant, uh, the GPT pros.George [00:32:12]: Oh yeah.swyx [00:32:13]: Cause GPT pros are rumored. We don't know for a fact that it's like eight runs and then with the LM judge on top. Yeah.George [00:32:20]: So we saw a big jump in, this is accuracy. So this is just percent that they get, uh, correct and Gemini three pro knew a lot more than the other models. And so big jump in accuracy. But relatively no change between the Google Gemini models, between releases. And the hallucination rate. Exactly. And so it's likely due to just kind of different post-training recipe, between the, the Claude models. Yeah.Micah [00:32:45]: Um, there's, there's driven this. Yeah. You can, uh, you can partially blame us and how we define intelligence having until now not defined hallucination as a negative in the way that we think about intelligence.swyx [00:32:56]: And so that's what we're changing. Uh, I know many smart people who are confidently incorrect.George [00:33:02]: Uh, look, look at that. That, that, that is very humans. Very true. And there's times and a place for that. I think our view is that hallucination rate makes sense in this context where it's around knowledge, but in many cases, people want the models to hallucinate, to have a go. Often that's the case in coding or when you're trying to generate newer ideas. One eval that we added to artificial analysis is, is, is critical point and it's really hard, uh, physics problems. Okay.swyx [00:33:32]: And is it sort of like a human eval type or something different or like a frontier math type?George [00:33:37]: It's not dissimilar to frontier frontier math. So these are kind of research questions that kind of academics in the physics physics world would be able to answer, but models really struggled to answer. So the top score here is not 9%.swyx [00:33:51]: And when the people that, that created this like Minway and, and, and actually off via who was kind of behind sweep and what organization is this? Oh, is this, it's Princeton.George [00:34:01]: Kind of range of academics from, from, uh, different academic institutions, really smart people. They talked about how they turn the models up in terms of the temperature as high temperature as they can, where they're trying to explore kind of new ideas in physics as a, as a thought partner, just because they, they want the models to hallucinate. Um, yeah, sometimes it's something new. Yeah, exactly.swyx [00:34:21]: Um, so not right in every situation, but, um, I think it makes sense, you know, to test hallucination in scenarios where it makes sense. Also, the obvious question is, uh, this is one of. Many that there is there, every lab has a system card that shows some kind of hallucination number, and you've chosen to not, uh, endorse that and you've made your own. And I think that's a, that's a choice. Um, totally in some sense, the rest of artificial analysis is public benchmarks that other people can independently rerun. You provide it as a service here. You have to fight the, well, who are we to, to like do this? And your, your answer is that we have a lot of customers and, you know, but like, I guess, how do you converge the individual?Micah [00:35:08]: I mean, I think, I think for hallucinations specifically, there are a bunch of different things that you might care about reasonably, and that you'd measure quite differently, like we've called this a amnesty and solutionation rate, not trying to declare the, like, it's humanity's last hallucination. You could, uh, you could have some interesting naming conventions and all this stuff. Um, the biggest picture answer to that. It's something that I actually wanted to mention. Just as George was explaining, critical point as well is, so as we go forward, we are building evals internally. We're partnering with academia and partnering with AI companies to build great evals. We have pretty strong views on, in various ways for different parts of the AI stack, where there are things that are not being measured well, or things that developers care about that should be measured more and better. And we intend to be doing that. We're not obsessed necessarily with that. Everything we do, we have to do entirely within our own team. Critical point. As a cool example of where we were a launch partner for it, working with academia, we've got some partnerships coming up with a couple of leading companies. Those ones, obviously we have to be careful with on some of the independent stuff, but with the right disclosure, like we're completely comfortable with that. A lot of the labs have released great data sets in the past that we've used to great success independently. And so it's between all of those techniques, we're going to be releasing more stuff in the future. Cool.swyx [00:36:26]: Let's cover the last couple. And then we'll, I want to talk about your trends analysis stuff, you know? Totally.Micah [00:36:31]: So that actually, I have one like little factoid on omniscience. If you go back up to accuracy on omniscience, an interesting thing about this accuracy metric is that it tracks more closely than anything else that we measure. The total parameter count of models makes a lot of sense intuitively, right? Because this is a knowledge eval. This is the pure knowledge metric. We're not looking at the index and the hallucination rate stuff that we think is much more about how the models are trained. This is just what facts did they recall? And yeah, it tracks parameter count extremely closely. Okay.swyx [00:37:05]: What's the rumored size of GPT-3 Pro? And to be clear, not confirmed for any official source, just rumors. But rumors do fly around. Rumors. I get, I hear all sorts of numbers. I don't know what to trust.Micah [00:37:17]: So if you, if you draw the line on omniscience accuracy versus total parameters, we've got all the open ways models, you can squint and see that likely the leading frontier models right now are quite a lot bigger than the ones that we're seeing right now. And the one trillion parameters that the open weights models cap out at, and the ones that we're looking at here, there's an interesting extra data point that Elon Musk revealed recently about XAI that for three trillion parameters for GROK 3 and 4, 6 trillion for GROK 5, but that's not out yet. Take those together, have a look. You might reasonably form a view that there's a pretty good chance that Gemini 3 Pro is bigger than that, that it could be in the 5 to 10 trillion parameters. To be clear, I have absolutely no idea, but just based on this chart, like that's where you would, you would land if you have a look at it. Yeah.swyx [00:38:07]: And to some extent, I actually kind of discourage people from guessing too much because what does it really matter? Like as long as they can serve it as a sustainable cost, that's about it. Like, yeah, totally.George [00:38:17]: They've also got different incentives in play compared to like open weights models who are thinking to supporting others in self-deployment for the labs who are doing inference at scale. It's I think less about total parameters in many cases. When thinking about inference costs and more around number of active parameters. And so there's a bit of an incentive towards larger sparser models. Agreed.Micah [00:38:38]: Understood. Yeah. Great. I mean, obviously if you're a developer or company using these things, not exactly as you say, it doesn't matter. You should be looking at all the different ways that we measure intelligence. You should be looking at cost to run index number and the different ways of thinking about token efficiency and cost efficiency based on the list prices, because that's all it matters.swyx [00:38:56]: It's not as good for the content creator rumor mill where I can say. Oh, GPT-4 is this small circle. Look at GPT-5 is this big circle. And then there used to be a thing for a while. Yeah.Micah [00:39:07]: But that is like on its own, actually a very interesting one, right? That is it just purely that chances are the last couple of years haven't seen a dramatic scaling up in the total size of these models. And so there's a lot of room to go up properly in total size of the models, especially with the upcoming hardware generations. Yes.swyx [00:39:29]: So, you know. Taking off my shitposting face for a minute. Yes. Yes. At the same time, I do feel like, you know, especially coming back from Europe, people do feel like Ilya is probably right that the paradigm is doesn't have many more orders of magnitude to scale out more. And therefore we need to start exploring at least a different path. GDPVal, I think it's like only like a month or so old. I was also very positive when it first came out. I actually talked to Tejo, who was the lead researcher on that. Oh, cool. And you have your own version.George [00:39:59]: It's a fantastic. It's a fantastic data set. Yeah.swyx [00:40:01]: And maybe it will recap for people who are still out of it. It's like 44 tasks based on some kind of GDP cutoff that's like meant to represent broad white collar work that is not just coding. Yeah.Micah [00:40:12]: Each of the tasks have a whole bunch of detailed instructions, some input files for a lot of them. It's within the 44 is divided into like two hundred and twenty two to five, maybe subtasks that are the level of that we run through the agenda. And yeah, they're really interesting. I will say that it doesn't. It doesn't necessarily capture like all the stuff that people do at work. No avail is perfect is always going to be more things to look at, largely because in order to make the tasks well enough to find that you can run them, they need to only have a handful of input files and very specific instructions for that task. And so I think the easiest way to think about them are that they're like quite hard take home exam tasks that you might do in an interview process.swyx [00:40:56]: Yeah, for listeners, it is not no longer like a long prompt. It is like, well, here's a zip file with like a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint deck or a PDF and go nuts and answer this question.George [00:41:06]: OpenAI released a great data set and they released a good paper which looks at performance across the different web chat bots on the data set. It's a great paper, encourage people to read it. What we've done is taken that data set and turned it into an eval that can be run on any model. So we created a reference agentic harness that can run. Run the models on the data set, and then we developed evaluator approach to compare outputs. That's kind of AI enabled, so it uses Gemini 3 Pro Preview to compare results, which we tested pretty comprehensively to ensure that it's aligned to human preferences. One data point there is that even as an evaluator, Gemini 3 Pro, interestingly, doesn't do actually that well. So that's kind of a good example of what we've done in GDPVal AA.swyx [00:42:01]: Yeah, the thing that you have to watch out for with LLM judge is self-preference that models usually prefer their own output, and in this case, it was not. Totally.Micah [00:42:08]: I think the way that we're thinking about the places where it makes sense to use an LLM as judge approach now, like quite different to some of the early LLM as judge stuff a couple of years ago, because some of that and MTV was a great project that was a good example of some of this a while ago was about judging conversations and like a lot of style type stuff. Here, we've got the task that the grader and grading model is doing is quite different to the task of taking the test. When you're taking the test, you've got all of the agentic tools you're working with, the code interpreter and web search, the file system to go through many, many turns to try to create the documents. Then on the other side, when we're grading it, we're running it through a pipeline to extract visual and text versions of the files and be able to provide that to Gemini, and we're providing the criteria for the task and getting it to pick which one more effectively meets the criteria of the task. Yeah. So we've got the task out of two potential outcomes. It turns out that we proved that it's just very, very good at getting that right, matched with human preference a lot of the time, because I think it's got the raw intelligence, but it's combined with the correct representation of the outputs, the fact that the outputs were created with an agentic task that is quite different to the way the grading model works, and we're comparing it against criteria, not just kind of zero shot trying to ask the model to pick which one is better.swyx [00:43:26]: Got it. Why is this an ELO? And not a percentage, like GDP-VAL?George [00:43:31]: So the outputs look like documents, and there's video outputs or audio outputs from some of the tasks. It has to make a video? Yeah, for some of the tasks. Some of the tasks.swyx [00:43:43]: What task is that?George [00:43:45]: I mean, it's in the data set. Like be a YouTuber? It's a marketing video.Micah [00:43:49]: Oh, wow. What? Like model has to go find clips on the internet and try to put it together. The models are not that good at doing that one, for now, to be clear. It's pretty hard to do that with a code editor. I mean, the computer stuff doesn't work quite well enough and so on and so on, but yeah.George [00:44:02]: And so there's no kind of ground truth, necessarily, to compare against, to work out percentage correct. It's hard to come up with correct or incorrect there. And so it's on a relative basis. And so we use an ELO approach to compare outputs from each of the models between the task.swyx [00:44:23]: You know what you should do? You should pay a contractor, a human, to do the same task. And then give it an ELO and then so you have, you have human there. It's just, I think what's helpful about GDPVal, the OpenAI one, is that 50% is meant to be normal human and maybe Domain Expert is higher than that, but 50% was the bar for like, well, if you've crossed 50, you are superhuman. Yeah.Micah [00:44:47]: So we like, haven't grounded this score in that exactly. I agree that it can be helpful, but we wanted to generalize this to a very large number. It's one of the reasons that presenting it as ELO is quite helpful and allows us to add models and it'll stay relevant for quite a long time. I also think it, it can be tricky looking at these exact tasks compared to the human performance, because the way that you would go about it as a human is quite different to how the models would go about it. Yeah.swyx [00:45:15]: I also liked that you included Lama 4 Maverick in there. Is that like just one last, like...Micah [00:45:20]: Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, it is the, it is the best model released by Meta. And... So it makes it into the homepage default set, still for now.George [00:45:31]: Other inclusion that's quite interesting is we also ran it across the latest versions of the web chatbots. And so we have...swyx [00:45:39]: Oh, that's right.George [00:45:40]: Oh, sorry.swyx [00:45:41]: I, yeah, I completely missed that. Okay.George [00:45:43]: No, not at all. So that, which has a checkered pattern. So that is their harness, not yours, is what you're saying. Exactly. And what's really interesting is that if you compare, for instance, Claude 4.5 Opus using the Claude web chatbot, it performs worse than the model in our agentic harness. And so in every case, the model performs better in our agentic harness than its web chatbot counterpart, the harness that they created.swyx [00:46:13]: Oh, my backwards explanation for that would be that, well, it's meant for consumer use cases and here you're pushing it for something.Micah [00:46:19]: The constraints are different and the amount of freedom that you can give the model is different. Also, you like have a cost goal. We let the models work as long as they want, basically. Yeah. Do you copy paste manually into the chatbot? Yeah. Yeah. That's, that was how we got the chatbot reference. We're not going to be keeping those updated at like quite the same scale as hundreds of models.swyx [00:46:38]: Well, so I don't know, talk to a browser base. They'll, they'll automate it for you. You know, like I have thought about like, well, we should turn these chatbot versions into an API because they are legitimately different agents in themselves. Yes. Right. Yeah.Micah [00:46:53]: And that's grown a huge amount of the last year, right? Like the tools. The tools that are available have actually diverged in my opinion, a fair bit across the major chatbot apps and the amount of data sources that you can connect them to have gone up a lot, meaning that your experience and the way you're using the model is more different than ever.swyx [00:47:10]: What tools and what data connections come to mind when you say what's interesting, what's notable work that people have done?Micah [00:47:15]: Oh, okay. So my favorite example on this is that until very recently, I would argue that it was basically impossible to get an LLM to draft an email for me in any useful way. Because most times that you're sending an email, you're not just writing something for the sake of writing it. Chances are context required is a whole bunch of historical emails. Maybe it's notes that you've made, maybe it's meeting notes, maybe it's, um, pulling something from your, um, any of like wherever you at work store stuff. So for me, like Google drive, one drive, um, in our super base databases, if we need to do some analysis or some data or something, preferably model can be plugged into all of those things and can go do some useful work based on it. The things that like I find most impressive currently that I am somewhat surprised work really well in late 2025, uh, that I can have models use super base MCP to query read only, of course, run a whole bunch of SQL queries to do pretty significant data analysis. And. And make charts and stuff and can read my Gmail and my notion. And okay. You actually use that. That's good. That's, that's, that's good. Is that a cloud thing? To various degrees of order, but chat GPD and Claude right now, I would say that this stuff like barely works in fairness right now. Like.George [00:48:33]: Because people are actually going to try this after they hear it. If you get an email from Micah, odds are it wasn't written by a chatbot.Micah [00:48:38]: So, yeah, I think it is true that I have never actually sent anyone an email drafted by a chatbot. Yet.swyx [00:48:46]: Um, and so you can, you can feel it right. And yeah, this time, this time next year, we'll come back and see where it's going. Totally. Um, super base shout out another famous Kiwi. Uh, I don't know if you've, you've any conversations with him about anything in particular on AI building and AI infra.George [00:49:03]: We have had, uh, Twitter DMS, um, with, with him because we're quite big, uh, super base users and power users. And we probably do some things more manually than we should in. In, in super base support line because you're, you're a little bit being super friendly. One extra, um, point regarding, um, GDP Val AA is that on the basis of the overperformance of the models compared to the chatbots turns out, we realized that, oh, like our reference harness that we built actually white works quite well on like gen generalist agentic tasks. This proves it in a sense. And so the agent harness is very. Minimalist. I think it follows some of the ideas that are in Claude code and we, all that we give it is context management capabilities, a web search, web browsing, uh, tool, uh, code execution, uh, environment. Anything else?Micah [00:50:02]: I mean, we can equip it with more tools, but like by default, yeah, that's it. We, we, we give it for GDP, a tool to, uh, view an image specifically, um, because the models, you know, can just use a terminal to pull stuff in text form into context. But to pull visual stuff into context, we had to give them a custom tool, but yeah, exactly. Um, you, you can explain an expert. No.George [00:50:21]: So it's, it, we turned out that we created a good generalist agentic harness. And so we, um, released that on, on GitHub yesterday. It's called stirrup. So if people want to check it out and, and it's a great, um, you know, base for, you know, generalist, uh, building a generalist agent for more specific tasks.Micah [00:50:39]: I'd say the best way to use it is get clone and then have your favorite coding. Agent make changes to it, to do whatever you want, because it's not that many lines of code and the coding agents can work with it. Super well.swyx [00:50:51]: Well, that's nice for the community to explore and share and hack on it. I think maybe in, in, in other similar environments, the terminal bench guys have done, uh, sort of the Harbor. Uh, and so it's, it's a, it's a bundle of, well, we need our minimal harness, which for them is terminus and we also need the RL environments or Docker deployment thing to, to run independently. So I don't know if you've looked at it. I don't know if you've looked at the harbor at all, is that, is that like a, a standard that people want to adopt?George [00:51:19]: Yeah, we've looked at it from a evals perspective and we love terminal bench and, and host benchmarks of, of, of terminal mention on artificial analysis. Um, we've looked at it from a, from a coding agent perspective, but could see it being a great, um, basis for any kind of agents. I think where we're getting to is that these models have gotten smart enough. They've gotten better, better tools that they can perform better when just given a minimalist. Set of tools and, and let them run, let the model control the, the agentic workflow rather than using another framework that's a bit more built out that tries to dictate the, dictate the flow. Awesome.swyx [00:51:56]: Let's cover the openness index and then let's go into the report stuff. Uh, so that's the, that's the last of the proprietary art numbers, I guess. I don't know how you sort of classify all these. Yeah.Micah [00:52:07]: Or call it, call it, let's call it the last of like the, the three new things that we're talking about from like the last few weeks. Um, cause I mean, there's a, we do a mix of stuff that. Where we're using open source, where we open source and what we do and, um, proprietary stuff that we don't always open source, like long context reasoning data set last year, we did open source. Um, and then all of the work on performance benchmarks across the site, some of them, we looking to open source, but some of them, like we're constantly iterating on and so on and so on and so on. So there's a huge mix, I would say, just of like stuff that is open source and not across the side. So that's a LCR for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.swyx [00:52:41]: Uh, but let's, let's, let's talk about open.Micah [00:52:42]: Let's talk about openness index. This. Here is call it like a new way to think about how open models are. We, for a long time, have tracked where the models are open weights and what the licenses on them are. And that's like pretty useful. That tells you what you're allowed to do with the weights of a model, but there is this whole other dimension to how open models are. That is pretty important that we haven't tracked until now. And that's how much is disclosed about how it was made. So transparency about data, pre-training data and post-training data. And whether you're allowed to use that data and transparency about methodology and training code. So basically, those are the components. We bring them together to score an openness index for models so that you can in one place get this full picture of how open models are.swyx [00:53:32]: I feel like I've seen a couple other people try to do this, but they're not maintained. I do think this does matter. I don't know what the numbers mean apart from is there a max number? Is this out of 20?George [00:53:44]: It's out of 18 currently, and so we've got an openness index page, but essentially these are points, you get points for being more open across these different categories and the maximum you can achieve is 18. So AI2 with their extremely open OMO3 32B think model is the leader in a sense.swyx [00:54:04]: It's hooking face.George [00:54:05]: Oh, with their smaller model. It's coming soon. I think we need to run, we need to get the intelligence benchmarks right to get it on the site.swyx [00:54:12]: You can't have it open in the next. We can not include hooking face. We love hooking face. We'll have that, we'll have that up very soon. I mean, you know, the refined web and all that stuff. It's, it's amazing. Or is it called fine web? Fine web. Fine web.Micah [00:54:23]: Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Yep. One of the reasons this is cool, right, is that if you're trying to understand the holistic picture of the models and what you can do with all the stuff the company's contributing, this gives you that picture. And so we are going to keep it up to date alongside all the models that we do intelligence index on, on the site. And it's just an extra view to understand.swyx [00:54:43]: Can you scroll down to this? The, the, the, the trade-offs chart. Yeah, yeah. That one. Yeah. This, this really matters, right? Obviously, because you can b

Join host Justin Forman with Mark Grunden and Josh Seabaugh for a pivotal conversation about the unprecedented opportunity emerging at the intersection of church and entrepreneurship. Recorded during Faith Driven Entrepreneur's staff retreat in Charleston, this episode unpacks groundbreaking Barna research revealing that society trusts entrepreneurs twice as much as pastors—and why this isn't a threat, but rather the church's greatest partnership opportunity.Mark brings unique insight from seven years at Saddleback Church pioneering marketplace ministry, while Josh shares lessons from a decade as a campus pastor before joining FDE full-time. Together, they reveal why starting with entrepreneurs—rather than broad "faith and work" initiatives—creates sustainable momentum that cascades throughout entire congregations and communities.Key Topics:Barna research reveals entrepreneurs are trusted 2X more than pastors (and 9X more than politicians)Why starting with "everyone who works" causes entrepreneurs to leave the roomThe difference between convening for community vs. convening for missionBreaking free from the "parking jacket and coffee" trap for high-capacity leadersWhy churches need entrepreneurs more than entrepreneurs need the churchHow 250 churches are becoming hubs for faith-driven entrepreneurs in their citiesThe simple 8-week pathway any church can start this week (no cost, no catch)Notable Quotes:"Entrepreneurs are trusted two times more than pastors. I don't know if the influence of pastors is actually waning, but I think it's more that the impact of entrepreneurs are actually increasing because people are tired of talk in our society. They're looking for people of action." - Mark Grunden"If you get a pastor alone, he's intimidated by the entrepreneur. If you get an entrepreneur alone, he's intimidating by the pastor, which is why I'm excited that we can be the bridge." - Josh Seabaugh"If you start with everybody, you'll never get the entrepreneur. But if you start with the entrepreneur, everybody will follow." - Mark Grunden

Want to get away from the crowds? Want a high mountain lake or stream all to yourself?  The best way to do this is to take a backpacking trip, but you need to prepare more than you would for a car trip or a trip to a lodge. What exactly should you take and what should you leave behind?  What kinds of flies and accessories should you bring? How can you save weight and still have enough gear for a fun fishing trip? Derek Bargaehr [37:36], an experienced fly fisher and backpacker, gives us tips on how to make the most of your next backpacking trip. In the Fly Box this week, we have some questions. A couple of which could only be answered by my co-workers at Orvis so we have responses from both Pete Kutzer, our casting guru and Shawn Brillon, our bamboo rod craftsman. How can I easily estimate how much backing is on my unlabeled reels? A listener relates how some podcast advice on emergers helped him and his son have a successful trip I took a lesson on two-handed casting and it was all done on grass.  Was this wrong? What advice do you have on cleaning the ferrules on bamboo fly rods? Are Orvis bamboo fly rods impregnated? On a tarpon trip, the fish were in deep water so I used a sinking poly leader on my floating line.  Should I have used a full-sinking fly line instead? Is the Albright knot a better knot than the nail knot for attaching a leader to a fly line or backing to a fly line? When connecting pieces of tippet I will normally go up two X sizes, like from 2X to 4X.  Is this wrong? Is it OK to clear a casting lane on a trout stream? What can I do to find bigger trout during the dog days of summer?

In this episode, Tony and Marianna break down the commonly misunderstood condition known as 'skinny fat,' where individuals have low muscle mass and relatively high body fat despite appearing thin. They provide a clear, actionable five-step plan to address and fix this issue. The steps include prioritizing strength training with compound lifts, optimizing diet with high protein and appropriate calorie intake, incorporating strategic cardio routines, improving lifestyle factors like sleep and stress management, and tracking progress with patience. They emphasize the need for consistency and the importance of adjusting goals as one's body changes.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sign up for Fitness Stuff PREMIUM here!!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ALL of our complete 12-week training programsBonus episodes every FridayJust $5 /month⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Legion Athletics⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BOGO 50% off for your first order + 2X points on every order after thatuse code “FSPOD” at checkoutCalorie + Protein CalculatorsTimestamps:(02:56) What is “Skinnyfat”(09:00) What causes Skinnyfat(14:41) How to fix Skinnyfat

Hey there! I'm Kate from Hello Funnels, and welcome to Part 4—the final episode—of our End of Year Planning Series.If you haven't listened to Parts 1-3 yet, go back and do those first. This exercise builds on everything we've already covered.Today's episode might make you uncomfortable. And honestly, that's kind of the point.I'm walking you through a challenge that's going to stretch you and show you what's actually possible in 2026—even if it feels impossible right now.It's called the 10X Exercise. And it's designed to help you think bigger, notice your resistance, and consider strategies you never would have thought of otherwise.Because here's the truth: when we set achievable-feeling goals, we give ourselves achievable-feeling tasks. But if we want quantum-leap growth, we need to think bigger.And even if you don't hit the 10X, you might still 2X your results. And who doesn't want that?Want help building the plan and the systems to make this happen? DM us @hellofunnels on Instagram. We'd love to support you inside the 100K Club.Thanks for following along with this series. Now go do the work—and let's make 2026 incredible.

After nearly 200,000 cold calls and a million auto-dialer calls, Stephen Oommen discovered something shocking: 98% of his revenue came from warm referrals. Today, he breaks down how sellers can turn relationships into predictable growth. In this episode, host Lyndsay Dowd sits down with Stephen Oommen, a 25-year go-to-market veteran, speaker, and author of the upcoming book The Referral Effect. Stephen shares why nearly 98% of his business revenue came from warm referrals, despite making hundreds of thousands of cold calls throughout his career. Stephen opens up about growing up as the child of immigrants in Oklahoma, navigating an identity crisis that ultimately became his superpower—the Chameleon Effect—his ability to adapt, connect, and create trust across any environment. That skill later became the foundation for his referral-based sales methodology. You'll learn: - Why executives don't respond to cold outreach—and what they do respond to - How to close the trust gap by scaling warm referrals - The "Magic Networking Question" that instantly upgrades your network - The 99 and 1 Principle for managing energy in sales and relationships - How leaders can balance intensity, kindness, and long-term legacy If you're a B2B seller, founder, GTM leader, or executive tired of low-yield outreach, this conversation will challenge how you think about networking, sales culture, and growth.

    Timestamps
 00:00 – Introduction: Stephen Oommen, the Truth Teller.
 02:22 – Stephen's Origin Story: From Bankruptcy to Corporate Success.
 04:48 – The Chameleon Effect: Turning Identity Crisis into a Superpower.
 10:39 – Cold Calls vs. Warm Referrals: The Efficiency vs. Effectiveness Debate.
16:54 – How to Start Networking: Nurturing and Activating Relationships.
 19:16 – The Live Exercise: Asking the Right Questions to Build a Network.
 22:50 – Using Qualifiers: Geography, Industry, and Title.
 26:08 – The 99 and 1 Principle: Managing Energy in Sales.
 30:04 – What Inspires Stephen: Growth, Contribution, and Laughter.
 32:38 – Legacy: Kindness Character vs. Intense Personality.
 35:00 – What's Next: Speaking Tours and The Referral Effect.

    About the Guest Stephen Oommen is a 25-year go-to-market veteran with experience spanning frontline sales to executive leadership. He has worked with startups and global enterprises including Microsoft, ADP, and Citibank. Stephen is the only speaker and trainer dedicated to helping B2B sellers solve the biggest challenge in modern sales: lack of access to decision makers. His work focuses on closing the trust gap by scaling the most successful method known—warm referrals. A successful entrepreneur and W2 employee ("entreployee"), Stephen has retired from corporate twice, paid off hundreds of thousands in non-mortgage debt, and is currently writing his book The Referral Effect. He believes legacy is built at the intersection of kindness, generosity, and laughter.  Connect with Stephen LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenoommen/

    About the Host – Lyndsay Dowd is a Speaker, Founder, Author, Coach, Podcast Host—and unapologetic Disruptor. With 30 years of leadership experience, including 23 at IBM, she's built and led high-performing teams that consistently delivered results. She also served as a Guest Lecturer at Harvard University, sharing her insights on modern leadership and culture transformation. 

 As the founder of Heartbeat for Hire, Lyndsay helps companies ditch toxic leadership and build irresistible cultures that drive performance, retention, and impact. She's been featured in Fortune Magazine, HR.com, ABC, NBC, FOX, CBS, and over 100 podcasts. 

   Lyndsay is a two-time best selling author of Top Down Culture and Voices of Women, and the host of the globally ranked and 2X awarded Heartbeat for Hire podcast—sitting in the top 2.5% worldwide. She is also the host of a weekly live show called THE LEADERSHIP LOUNGE. Lyndsay is a frequent speaker, moderator, and guest, known for her candor, humor, and ability to spark action.
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   #B2BSales #SalesStrategy #WarmReferrals #ColdCalling #SalesLeadership #GTM #Networking #RelationshipSelling #SalesPodcast #TheReferralEffect

Attention: Full service, creative, marketing agency owners. The number #1 reason you started the agency: 1) Freedom That's how simple it is. You want to grow your agency while working less in the business, right? We help you transform from the hustler/doer to the CEO. https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessepgilmore/ https://www.nicheincontrol.com/  With our Leverage for Growth program and my 1-1 support, together we: — Create scalability in your agency so as you take on more clients, you don't increase your personal hours to serve them. — Increase your revenue by consistently attracting your dream clients that value your services through an effective client attraction system (referral, inbound and outbound). — Find, train and manage a growing team to handle whole parts of the company so you can focus on growth or taking time for yourself. A selection of the agency owners we've worked with: — Jade (digital marketing agency owner) took 8 weeks off and still hit record-breaking sales this year. — Melanie (marketing consultant) 2X revenue while working less and doing more of what she loves. — Ray (digital marketing) regained control of his time with new systems that supported success. — Scott (ad agency) 2X'd profit margins and took a full month off while clients were still served. — Ryan (content marketing) doubled revenue while cutting his workload by 50% in 12 months. — Michele (web + design) built a client-finding system and took back control of her business. — Shari (creative + branding) transformed her business and team dynamics in just 3 months. — Daisy (PR agency owner) eliminated 100+ hours/month and doubled revenue in 4 months. — Casey (marketing expert) shifted from generalist to niche authority with a dialed-in offer. — Laryssa (digital marketing) doubled her MRR in 3 months by landing high-ticket clients. — Chad (ad agency) transformed his mindset and created team unity for scalable growth. — Reece (digital marketing) gained clarity and implemented the systems needed to grow. — Mike (web dev) cut 30+ weekly work hours and scaled with an 8-hour, 5-day schedule. — Warren (digital marketing) scaled from $15K/month to over $100K/month in 9 months. — Tonnisha (social media) slashed 30 hours/week and tripled her revenue in 5 months. — Susan (creative) 2X'd her revenue + exited through acquisition in just 18 months. — Sara (social media) rebuilt her confidence and clarity with systems that scale. — Nick (SEO) streamlined ops, boosted team morale, and amplified growth.

In this episode, Carolyn and Amber pull back the curtain on a $500M cybersecurity company that came to Passetto stuck in last-touch reporting, declining win rates, an overreliance on product trials, and zero visibility into what SDRs were actually working.In just 14 days, their Growth Sprint surfaced what months of internal analysis couldn't: the true drivers of revenue, why trials convert at only 5%, why hand-raisers deliver 2X the deal size and win rate, and how 40% of opportunities are created with no traceable sales trigger at all.We walk through the exact before-and-after: their revenue architecture score, the missing SDR prospecting layer, the downstream impact of “low-signal” opportunities, and the data that finally gives the team conviction to modernize their demand engine.Even with strong tools and a mature sales motion, they're operating with only 55% revenue visibility, record-low win rates, and a demand strategy built almost entirely on trials—until the Sprint changes the trajectory.We break down the insights their team uncovers:Why 55% of SDR workload comes from trials that win at only 5%How high-intent hand raisers deliver 2X the ACV and more than 2X the win rateWhy only 35% of opportunities show early-stage signalsHow more than 40% of opportunities have no traceable prospecting trigger at allAnd how a two-week sprint becomes the “forcing function” they need to move from uncertainty to a clear set of strategic prioritiesA powerful example of what happens when companies finally get the full-funnel visibility they've been missing.

In this episode of 'For the 23%', Dielle McMillan shares her top business lessons from 2025, emphasizing the importance of skills over goals, the necessity of taking risks, and the value of making mature business decisions. She discusses how grief can signify growth and introduces the concept that 10X growth is easier than 2X, encouraging listeners to embrace change and focus on long-term success. 00:00 — Introduction to the Podcast and Mastermind Program 02:21 — Top Business Lessons from 2025 03:48 — Skills Over Goals: The Key to Success 11:06 — The Importance of Risk in Business 20:05 — Making Mature Business Decisions 25:17 — Grief as a Sign of Growth 30:57 — 10X is Easier than 2X: A New Perspective For the 23% is the women of color business and entrepreneurship podcast hosted by multi-million-dollar entrepreneur Dielle Charon. Each week you'll learn how to grow your sales, money, and freedom so we can increase the 23% of business owners who are women of color. Website: forthe23percent.com Instagram: @forthe23percent Membership: forthe23percent.com/membership

Is it normal…or is it ADHD? That's the question that keeps so many parents of neurodivergent kids up at night, especially when old behaviors resurface after months or years of progress.  In this episode of The Soaring Child podcast, Dana Kay, board certified holistic health and nutrition practitioner, 2X international bestselling author, and mom of a child with ADHD, opens up about the emotional whiplash that can come with raising a neurodiverse child.  She shares what it's like to second-guess every behavior, even the ones that might just be typical childhood moments. Tune in to discover the difference between developmentally typical behavior and patterns that signal deeper dysregulation. Links Mentioned in the Show ▶ https://adhdthriveinstitute.com/breakfastguide ▶ https://adhdthriveinstitute.com/tool ▶ https://adhdthriveinstitute.com/supplements ▶ https://adhdthriveinstitute.com/parenting ▶ https://adhdthriveinstitute.com/book Key Takeaways with Timestamps [00:16] Why calm can trigger panic for ADHD parents [02:41] The "Is this normal or ADHD?" fear spiral [04:27] What counts as developmentally typical behavior [06:05] When patterns—not moments—signal deeper concerns [06:53] Why one meltdown feels heavier after progress [08:26] A client story: panic when the school didn't call [10:12] Why children (and adults) naturally have off days [11:34] How biology—gut, nutrients, inflammation—affects behavior [12:20] Questions parents can ask when behaviour worries them [14:17] Why hyperactive boyhood isn't pathology [16:42] Tracking patterns over time rather than reacting to one-offs [18:13] Validation that every parent needs to hear   Memorable Moments with Timestamps (Exact Quotes) "If peace somehow feels unsafe, it's not your fault." "I felt my whole body tighten… that hot flush that runs through every bone in your body." "One school phone call… and we spiral." "That fear doesn't mean everything is unraveling. It means that you care." "Progress hits harder when you finally experience peace." "For years, silence meant brace yourself—something bad's coming." "It means they're human children." "We've been conditioned to expect our children to behave better than most adults do." "These aren't signs of ADHD symptoms returning—these are signs of life." "Let them be messy. Let them be human. Let them be in process." Connect with Ashley: ▶ Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/healing_with_ashley ▶ Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/ashley.gobeil.50 ▶ Website – https://ashleychildtherapies.com.au Dana Kay Resources:

What happens when a medical device executive walks away from a stable 17-year career to build a digital marketing agency in one of the most complex industries on Earth? In this compelling episode of The Proven Entrepreneur Show, host Don Williams sits down with Saul Marquez, founder and CEO of Outcomes Rocket, to uncover the untold story of pivoting, perseverance, and the power of trusting your gut in healthcare entrepreneurship.Before he founded Outcomes Rocket, Saul Marquez spent 17 years in medical devices, living what many would call a "dream career." In this candid conversation with host Don Williams on The Proven Entrepreneur Show, Saul shares how he walked away from that security to build a specialist healthcare marketing agency serving health tech, medical device companies, and ambulatory provider groups. If you've ever felt torn between a safe path and a bigger vision, this episode will feel uncomfortably familiar in the best way.You'll hear Saul break down his simple decision framework of "dreams and data"—how he used both gut instinct and real-world evidence from over 2,000 podcast interviews with healthcare leaders to validate his leap into healthcare entrepreneurship. The discussion dives deep into health tech marketing, medical device marketing, and why "you sell like you buy" is one of the most practical mindset checks for any founder, CEO, or marketing leader. They unpack why "cheap marketing" is so expensive, when to stop DIYing and hire real experts, and how to think about podcasts and webinars for lead generation in today's healthcare landscape.Saul also shares a raw story about a webinar gone wrong—a painful early failure that turned into a long-term client relationship and bulletproof SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) through radical ownership. Along the way, Don and Saul talk about comfort zones, "burn the boats" moments, choosing mentors wisely, and what big thinkers in healthcare are really struggling with behind the scenes. This conversation covers essential topics for anyone navigating the intersection of healthcare business growth and digital transformation.What You'll Learn:How to validate a business idea using the "dreams and data" framework before taking the leapWhy healthcare commercialization requires strategic marketing partnerships, not budget solutionsThe psychological barriers keeping healthcare professionals from becoming successful entrepreneursHow B2B healthcare marketing differs from other industries and why it requires specialized expertiseThe role of content marketing, webinars, and podcasts in healthcare lead generationWhy 10X growth is easier than 2X growth—and what that means for your strategyHow to recover from catastrophic failures and turn them into competitive advantagesThe importance of surrounding yourself with mentors who've already achieved your goalsPractical strategies for health tech and medical device company growthThe "three M's of leadership": Mindset, Mission, and MethodologyWhy This Episode Matters:This isn't generic entrepreneurship advice—it's a masterclass in healthcare business strategy from someone who's built a thriving agency while serving some of the most complex organizations in the industry. If you're a health tech founder, medical device company leader, healthcare CEO, ambulatory provider, or anyone in the healthcare sales space wondering why your marketing isn't working, this conversation will rewire how you think about growth.Subscribe to The Proven Entrepreneur Show for more unfiltered conversations with leaders building billion-dollar healthcare businesses and navigating healthcare commercialization.

Try Activations free for 2 weeks + get a huge discount at https://www.activations.com/podcast/sahara   In this episode, I'm sitting down with the incredible Mimi Bouchard, founder of Activations, to talk about abundance, manifestation, career pivots, and money mindset.   One of the biggest questions I get is how I created a business where I'm literally paid to be me, making seven figures while talking about past lives, sacred feminine energy, and rose serpentine between Bali, Egypt, and India.    Growing up, no woman in my family even worked. I was told you get a job you hate, and that's life. I thought it was either do what you love and be broke, or sell your soul to make money.   Mimi's story is so similar. She didn't come from wealth. She grew up watching her parents fight about money, surrounded by scarcity and fear. But she made these massive mindset shifts that completely transformed her reality.    Now she's living in the Bahamas, married to her dream partner, and running a seven-figure business with Activations, a revolutionary audio app that's not meditation, not affirmations, it's activation. Over 700 guided visualizations paired with cinematic music designed to rewire your brain while you move through your day.   We dive into: ✨ How to rewire limiting beliefs around money and abundance

What if perfectionism is actually killing your success? In this Habits and Hustle episode, Kim Perell, a nine-time serial entrepreneur, joins me to share why waiting to feel ready is the biggest mistake aspiring business owners make.  We dive into Kim's morning routine, her partnership with Jay Shetty on Junie, and why exercise is her number one productivity tool. We also discuss why iteration beats innovation, and how she balances building multiple companies while raising four kids. Kim Perell is a 9X founder, 2X bestselling author, and investor in 100+ companies. Kim is a dynamic TV personality on Entrepreneur Magazine's Elevator Pitch and regularly appears on Good Morning America, The Today Show, CNBC, Fox, and in Forbes, Inc., and The New York Times. Her book "Mistakes That Made Me A Millionaire" shares the unfiltered truth about the journey to success, proving that every mistake holds the potential for million-dollar lessons. What We Discuss: 04:20 - The number one mistake: waiting to feel 100% ready before starting 05:09 - The Marine Corps 70% solution and how to apply it 06:56 - Why iteration beats innovation (and saves time) 07:21 - Co-founding Junie with Jay Shetty in a crowded beverage market 58:10 - Daily routine: waking at 6 AM, red light therapy, and meditation 59:28 - Running a household with four kids like a company 01:00:29 - Workout routine: HIIT, Peloton, and personal training at home 01:01:08 - Supplement stack: Momentous protein and creatine 01:03:00 - Why exercise is about mental health and focus, not competition 01:03:27 - Exercise as the number one longevity hack above all supplements …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. Momentous: Shop this link and use code Jen for 20% off  Manna Vitality: Visit mannavitality.com and use code JENNIFER20 for 20% off your order  Prolon: Get 30% off sitewide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their 5-Day Program! Just visit https://prolonlife.com/JENNIFERCOHEN and use code JENNIFERCOHEN to claim your discount and your bonus gift. Amp fits is the perfect balance of tech and training, designed for people who do it all and still want to feel strong doing it. Check it out at joinamp.com/jen    Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Kim Perell:  Instagram: @kimperell Website: https://kimperell.com/