Podcast appearances and mentions of chris all

In this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, I sit down with Jacob Robinson, the founder of Dig World, a construction-themed amusement park. Jacob's journey from owning a commercial cleaning business to launching a theme park was inspired by his son Pierce's courage in overcoming a severe illness. Jacob shares how this personal experience drove him to create a space where families can make lasting memories by operating real construction equipment. We also explore Jacob's unexpected invitation to appear on Shark Tank, which initially seemed too good to be true. Jacob describes the rigorous preparation process for the show and how securing a deal with Robert Herjavec provided significant exposure and credibility for Dig World. This experience sparked interest in franchise opportunities nationwide, propelling the business forward. However, Jacob's path has not been without challenges. He reflects on the operational setbacks faced during Dig World's grand opening and the importance of resilience in entrepreneurship. Jacob emphasizes learning from these failures and the need to be patient and ready for success. Throughout the episode, Jacob discusses his leadership evolution, focusing on servant leadership and building a passionate, customer-focused team. He highlights the importance of creating a culture of trust and creativity to ensure a safe and memorable experience for all visitors. Jacob remains committed to expanding DigWorld while offering an affordable alternative to traditional family outings. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I discussed Jacob Robinson's inspiring journey from running a commercial cleaning company to founding Dig World, a construction-themed amusement park inspired by his son Pierce's battle with a severe illness. Jacob shared the story of how an unexpected email invitation led to his appearance on Shark Tank, which resulted in a significant deal with Robert Herjavec and propelled Dig World into the national spotlight. We explored the challenges faced during Dig World's opening day, highlighting the operational setbacks that resulted in temporary closure and how these experiences taught valuable lessons about patience and readiness. Jacob explained the development of custom technology to enhance safety and functionality in the park's machinery, ensuring a secure and manageable experience for visitors operating real construction equipment. We discussed the importance of building a passionate and customer-focused team, emphasizing a culture of creativity and care that enhances the visitor experience and supports the company's mission. Jacob described his evolution from a fear-driven leadership style to one centered on servant leadership, focusing on resilience and motivating his team positively through setbacks. As Dig World plans for expansion, Jacob remains committed to offering an affordable, enriching alternative to traditional family outings, while also contemplating new mascots and improvements to machinery safety. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Dig World GUESTS Jacob RobinsonAbout Jacob TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: Jacob, I want to welcome you to Building Texas Business. Thanks for taking time to come on the podcast. Jacob: No, thank you. I'm so honored to be here. Chris: So we can see from behind you. You know Dig World's your company. Take a minute to tell the listeners what Dig World is. What do you do? What are you known for? Jacob: Yeah, great question. So we are a construction theme park where we allow kids and adults to operate real construction equipment. So we let them drive real skid steers, real excavators, real UTVs would take you up and boom lifts, the whole deal. And the only thing is you need to be three years old or older. And so we truly are a fun family theme park, but we allow you to operate real construction equipment. Chris: Wow, I mean, that's amazing Real construction equipment. I can't wait to get into more of the details behind that, but first I have to ask you what was the inspiration to start a company like this? Jacob: Yeah, it's crazy. You don't wake up with a dream every day to start a construction theme park. Chris: Yeah, maybe a construction theme park, but not one where a three-year-old can operate. That's right. Jacob: That's fair? That's fair? Well, no. So we, my wife and I, were blessed. We have three amazing kids. We have nine-year-old, a five-year-old and almost a two-year-old, and so life is good and hectic right now. But my nine-year-old son, pierce, was born in 2015, a happy, healthy baby boy, and life progressed just normally and just fine. And then, in 2017, one morning on a Saturday morning, my wife found him in his crib unconscious and after rushing him to the hospital, we learned that he had contracted bacterial meningitis. We weren't sure if he was going to make it through the weekend, but the Lord had different plans. He was in a coma 12 days and we were in the hospital 75 days. And when we left the hospital, pierce left with a whole host of issues he's nonverbal, he's epileptic, he's deaf in both ears, you know, wheelchair and mental capacity of call it maybe a one-year-old, but but he is a happy little boy and, as I was telling somebody else, you know Pierce sees the world the way that we should all see the world. He doesn't see your skin color. He doesn't see your income. He doesn't see what car you drive. As long as you hang out with them, you've, we could bring people together. You know, you conceptually always understand that life is short, but when you're faced with something like that, you really understand that life is short and precious and so you want to bring people together and create memories and have good times and not just look up and say, man, all I did was work for 40, 50 years. And here I am, and so we had this idea. You know, as I told somebody, we're pretty good arrogant Texans. We thought we could build a theme park. It couldn't be that hard, right. And man, we were wrong and we'll get into that, I'm sure, at some point in the show. But Pierce's always loved construction equipment garbage trucks, dump trucks, really thinking that whole, everything in that category. And so we said, hey, we really think we could build a theme park where kids could actually come and operate real construction equipment. And for the listeners out there, some of you may be thinking, oh, this must be some toned down version. No, these are real. These are 3027s, these are 305s, these are 243 skid steers, and so these are the real deal that we have re-engineered to where it's safe, but these are the real deal that you get to operate the park. So that's how we got started. Pierce is the inspiration behind the park, the inspiration behind really a lot of things that I do in life, and bringing people together to create memories that last a lifetime. Chris: My gosh, I mean what? I mean? That's a mic drop story, jacob. I mean, you know, blessings to you and Pierce and your whole family. I hope to get the chance to meet him one day. Yes, he's the coolest member of our family. So, yes, that is amazing. So, wow. I love the inspiration and the story and this whole idea of bringing people and families together for those memories. So were you in the construction business when you started this, or what? Jacob: were you doing? I would say yes and no. I had a commercial cleaning company. I started in 2015. That was my job. We just recently sold that business and where we started that business was in the construction cleaning space. So anytime a general contractor would go and build a big building or a hotel or an office building, we would come in, we would work for the general contractor and we would do the final clean on that building. So I was kind of in the construction space. We, you know we answered to GCs all day, but I am not a construction guy by trade. I was an ag major at Texas A&M, so I was a janitor turned theme park guy. So it's been a very interesting career, as you can ask my CPA wife from all the meandering roads that we've taken. Chris: Yeah, so you know we're on inspiration. So then let's yeah, let's kind of dig into what a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners you know face is that first step right Of actually getting the courage to, to chase that dream. So let's take us back to that. What was that like? You know what were, you know what were the first steps like, what were the feelings? Like? How'd you convince that CPA wife that you know CPA wife that this wasn't quite as crazy as it sounded? Jacob: Yes, I'm not sure, when we crossed that line that the craziness went out the window. We may have been there for a couple of years, but I would say to those entrepreneurs out there it's easy to say and it's cliche to say, but everybody sees the end of the story, everybody sees Dig World. Now We've been open, we're on Shark Tank, we're franchising. You know everybody's going ah, great idea. Listen, that was not the case when we first started. We went back and counted. I had roughly 248 pitch meetings where they told me no, that I was crazy, it was never going to work. Nobody's ever going to come to this, nobody's. You know, it's not safe All these kinds of things. And so 248, it's a lot of meetings. It's a lot of meetings. It's a lot of no's. It's a lot of no's. To keep coming home and go, no, it was a good meeting. It was a good meeting. What did they give you? Money? Not at all, quite the opposite, but it was a good meeting, right? And so to those entrepreneurs out there that you, you, if you're pounding your head against the pavement and going, man, if one more person tells me no, hey, I've been there with you, I know what that's like. Keep pressing on, keep going. If you have the vision and you have the conviction behind it, I promise you, at some point you are going to find somebody that believes in your vision for no other reason than you've just been at it for so long and you've got conviction behind it that somebody will take a flyer on you. But it was difficult. It was difficult. We started in 2019, and then COVID hit right, and so we told people not only were we the crazy theme park people running around asking people to invest, but then we were the crazy people saying hey, listen, not only are we going to build it, we're going to get a whole bunch of people together. And that messaging wasn't going over very well during COVID, and so you know, we had all of these factors that were not going in our favor. And then, finally, in 21, in 2021, we had a first couple of people start to say yes, and then Domino's started to fall, and then we opened in March of 2022. And, frankly, that was an epic failure, too, that we can talk about as well, but it was a long journey. It was a long journey, and so my encouragement to those that are out there, either on that journey or those that are at the beginning of that journey is take a step, just take a step. Right, do something. Just call somebody and say your dream out loud, right? Call somebody and say hey, listen, I'm going to let a three-year-old drive a skid steer. Right, and the more you start to say it out loud, the better that muscle is going to become being flexed. And then, all of a sudden, you're going to be the confident person that walks in the room and goes no, yeah, of course we're going to put a three-year-old on skid steer. We're going to let them drive an excavator. We're going to have birthday parties here, and then, hey, guess what they? But that theme of just take the step, just do it just go for it. Chris: No one's ever going to believe it as much as you do, so you got to have that passion and belief and eventually you will find someone to get behind you, and then it's on you to deliver. Right, that's right, that's right, that's exactly right. So I do want to get to the story on the opening, but I have to ask you mentioned it earlier, so how did the Shark Tank thing come about? How did you, how'd you wind up on Shark Tank? Let's talk a little bit about that experience and what that was like. Jacob: Yeah, an amazing experience, you know, it just was fantastic all around. An exhausting experience nonetheless, but it was a fantastic experience. You know, we were very blessed. One day I was sitting at my computer and we got an email to our info account and said hey, would you consider being on season 16 of Shark Tank? And clearly we thought it was a joke, right, and clearly thought something was going to be hacked if I responded to it. Chris: Don't click the attachment right, that's right, that's right. Jacob: All of a sudden our bank account gets hacked. But it was actually one of the producers. She had seen us on Instagram and said, hey, listen, would you be interested? Let's learn more about your business, see if it checks a lot of these boxes. And then that started the whole process. And the process is rigorous and it's long, and your fate hangs in the hands of people that you never get to see or talk to. And you know it goes from one lawyer to another lawyer. None of those lawyers have talked to each other, and so the whole process is very interesting. And then you know the show is true. It's true to form. The only thing scripted about the show is the very beginning pitch that you give, and other than that, it's a free for all. The Sharks don't know about your business, they don't have a flyer on your business, they haven't been given any information. It's truly a live pitch pitching again when I'm like, hey, no, hold on, we got the park open, I don't need to pitch anybody again. Plenty of people have told me no, I don't need, you know, five people on national television to blast me and tell me no. But so when we got there, we did the pitch and we were very blessed it went well. We secured a deal from Robert Herjavec, the tech entrepreneur on the show. He's one of the staple sharks and it's just been a great experience and once there's one of those things that you look up and you really have to sit in the fact that it's one of those once in a lifetime crazy things. And even yesterday I was driving to the grocery store and I sat there and I was like man, this really happened. That's crazy and just trying to enjoy those moments. Chris: Well, and it has to be. I mean, it's great that it worked out and you got, you know, some additional investment from a very seasoned person, but just the notoriety of being on right Open, you know, a lot of eyes to you and had to, you know, you know, increase traction and interest in what you were doing. Jacob: Totally. I think, from even, just you know, foot traffic to the park here in Katy. That that's been tremendous. But then even, obviously, you know we went on the show to sell franchises. That that's our next big hurdle is selling franchises across the country and we have been flooded with requests of franchises to bring people, you know, bring a park to their location, their city. Talking to potential franchisees, it really just just totally gasoline on the fire. Chris: Yeah. So let's go back to the opening. You said March 2022. One of the things I like to talk to people about is let's talk about a failure that you've encountered and most people will tell you can do a whole show on them, right. Literally, I was going to say you don't have enough time on this, but you know you shared that. I guess the opening didn't go so well or something around that. So let's talk about what were some of the failures around that. What did you learn that made you better going forward? Jacob: That's right. You know, I tell people one day when I'm, when I give it, when I give a speech one day at a theme park conference, I'm going to be able to tell people I'm one of the very few theme park operators in the world that has opened a theme park and closed it the same day because it went so poorly. And so you know, I do have that badge of honor with me. So we opened the park too soon and that was a hundred percent my fault, right you too soon, and that was 100% my fault, right? You're trying to you build in these parameters in your head. We got to open this date. We got to do this. You know people are waiting and I really wanted it to be open that Thursday of spring break back in 2022. Could I have waited 48 hours more and would that have fixed our problems? Yes, did I? No, and I think a lot of it was. You know, we had been at this for four years. At this point, we were exhausted and here was the finish line. The finish line was on Thursday and we could do this and everybody's gonna love it. Tickets were sold out there. There was plenty of buzz. You know we were being interviewed from broadcaster. You know I was on NPR and we're doing this interview in this country and all over the US, and there was so much media attention. We had helicopters circling over the park doing filming, getting ready for the opening, and when we opened, man, it was an epic disaster, and the reason it was is I pushed the grand opening. All of our machines were not ready. We had not put on our technology of all the machines, not that we were letting people operate those machines, but we did not have enough time built in to put a computer on this machine, and then this machine, and then this machine. And so what happened is we opened the park to hundreds and hundreds of people and we didn't have that many machines going, and so those hundreds and hundreds of people waited in line for hours and it was just disastrous. And people were angry at me, rightfully so. People wanted to tell me what they thought about me, and rightfully so. The amount of refunds that we issued that day were it was probably dollar for dollar, we probably made $0 that day or just lost money, and so we had to shut the park down. So so I go on, and we, you know we were open. We were going to be open that Thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, and I just canceled everything and said hey, I'm so sorry, we're not going to be open, we'll refund you your tickets or you can come back whenever you want. And, man, people were so mad at us. They were so mad at us. The news was doing coverage about how Dig World closed in less than 24 hours and it was a disaster, an epic failure. And so you know you go home that night and something you had been working for four years, there was no, nothing good about it. There wasn't even. There was no silver lining, like you could be, like well, but no, it was terrible and kids left crying. I mean, just like I said, just terrible. And my wife will tell you that, looking back on that night, she goes hey, I thought I lost you mentally that night, like I thought you were so down in the dumps that night that I didn't know where we were going to go from here. And yeah, I remember the next day waking up, I was trying to, I was going to take my son on a walk and I remember getting halfway out of the neighborhood and having to turn around, got to go back into the office. We've got to go on the offensive here and really try to say hey, listen, we're sorry, let's own the mistake right. Hey, we opened too soon, please come back. And so I think you look at it right and it just was one of those epic failures, and we've had many more along the way, right? Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom, and thanks for listening to the show. Jacob: I was thinking of just trying to figure out how to run a theme park, and we've never run a theme park, but that was one. That's an easy recall when somebody asked me to talk about failure. Chris: Right, like you almost were there right Reliving it that day. Jacob: Oh man yes. Chris: Well, the lesson, though, in that you found the positive and I think it's true in so many different circumstances. We're all going to make mistakes, right, we've made them in the past. One thing certain we're going to make them again in the future, it's owning it right, be this, taking ownership of it, and then kind of committing to do better. I think when you do that, you know what, more times than not, what comes from that is grace. You know people grace to you, and I think that's what it seems like what you've experienced. Right, you owned it, so we're going to do better. The community gave you grace, and when you open back up, they came. Jacob: I think don't pass the blame, Even honestly, even if it's not really your blame, right? People want somebody to stand up and say, hey, it's on me, and I think we don't see that a lot of times in leadership throughout you know, whatever. But people willing to say, hey, that was on me, I'm gonna raise my hand, that was on me. And then the key is forgetting quickly and moving on right and not dwelling which, whatever you do, operate out of imagination, not memory. Right, Don't go back there, sit in those failures operate out of imagination, not memory. Chris: That's a good one. I haven't heard that one before I'm writing it down. Jacob: I would like to take credit for it, but somebody much smarter than me said it, so yeah, right. Chris: So I want to talk a little bit about technology and innovation because, I mean, I know these are, you know, big machinery used out in the construction. There's nothing really innovative about them, but it seems to me that using them in your theme park has to have some innovation and technology to make them safe, as you've described them. So you know, tell us about that. How did you come up with it or did you, or where did you find it? Jacob: it? Yeah, great question. So, yes, yes, all of the above. I know I did not come up with it, I'm not smart enough to write code, but we partnered with an engineer and we said hey, listen, this is what we want to do. We believe this can happen. And what we did, in simplistic terms, we built our own computer to put onto the back of the machine. That goes into its wiring to override a lot of the functionality of it. And so when we call it dig world mode, when the computer's in dig world mode, it is safe. The excavators are stationary, they can't go forward and backwards, they only go certain degrees to the right and left and up and down. Our skid steers are heavily governed, the hydraulics and a lot of functionalities are disengaged. We have kill switches and then we can flip the computer back to normal mode and it's a normal functioning machine. And so really, coming alongside a bright engineering team and building this technology that's our technology and putting it on these machines is really outside the box kind of stuff. And finding somebody that wanted to dream alongside with us was the key to success there. And he's still dreaming alongside with us. I mean he had made a technology upgrade this past week. That's one of those things you look at and you go why didn't we do that three years ago? That makes things a lot, you know not safer, they were very safe it makes it simpler for our team to utilize, and so we're always improving. I think that's the other thing. You know you hear it all the time as an entrepreneur, but as a business owner, one of the things that's very easy to do is get stuck in a rut and go well, we've always done it that way, right? I had a call with my business partner this morning and he's newer to the team and he said well, why are we doing that? And I was like well, honestly, I don't know if we've ever asked that question. I think we've just done it and let's try something new here. And knowing that you don't always have the right answers, and your teammate you may have a high school kid that works for you, like I do that comes to you and goes hey, why, why aren't we doing it like this? Could we do it like this? And you go it's a genius idea, let's do it that way. Yeah, and being okay and putting your pride aside and saying let's change and adapt. Chris: Right. So you're clearly kind of in the entertainment business. Let's talk about building a team right, because I think I mean clearly you've got an internal team there, I guess in the office that's got to run the company, some creativity around it, but then you have another team, that's, you know, customer facing. How have you gone about building kind of each of those teams to try to maximize the company's success? Jacob: Yeah, it's a great question, Thank you. I would say, yeah, our two teams I'd almost kind of say like our corporate team. Right, our corporate team is the X's and O's business focus. How do we grow the franchises? How do we optimize the P&L? And really the key to success there is not to overstate cliches, but like go hire somebody smarter than you and go hire somebody that is great at your weaknesses and then give them the reins to run it. I don't go in your lane, you know how to run it. I trust you explicitly. I've given you the keys of the kingdom because if not, if I'm just going to micromanage you, then why would I even have you on my team? That's demeaning to you. I'm going to end up doing the work anyways because I'm a control freak. So I'm going to go hire somebody that really knows what they're doing and say go, do it right. Or my business partner he oversees a lot of different things, but one of them is the marketing, and today he said hey, listen, do we want to spend here? Do you want to spend here? I think the answer is here. Yep, let's go there right, if you think that's interview going. Hey, this is what we sleep and breathe here. We love the customer, we love that people are here. We're going to love on them and we're going to make memories. Can you do that? And that's what I'm going to hire and fire against. If I see you out there and you're not loving on customers and you're not creating memories that last a lifetime, we're going to ask you to leave. But that's what you know from the beginning. We're going to hire and fire against. Do we love people and are we serving them well? And if we do those things, we're going to build a culture that people start to talk about. And every team meeting that we have, I kick off of hey, today we're going to love people and today we're going to think outside the box, and I know you had, you know, a long week at school. I'm asking you from nine to five today to dig deep and love on people because and when you really frame it up, we get to be a part of something so special and so unique. We get to really be a part of this kid or this family's memory bank, and hopefully in a good way. Right, there are going to be hundreds and hundreds of kids for the rest of their lives that are able to say man, when I was five I had my birthday party at this place called Dig World and I got to drive a real excavator. They're gonna tell that story for their whole life. We get to be a part of that. How humbling is that. And so when you really can set the picture for these kids, what we're doing here is not just a job. We're not here today to collect tickets and put you on a machine and say thank you for coming. We are ingraining ourselves into your memory bank, and when we can take that on in the privilege of that, then, man, we can really sky's the limit. Chris: Yeah, well, I could see if you get that light bulb to go off and kind of in any employee, right, it changes the whole dynamic, the mindset and luckily those high school kids I got to believe they're learning great life skills to have to deal with people on the fly. And that's what we do every day. Right, we're dealing with people as we as they come to us, and so that's exactly right. Jacob: And get to teaching that, hey, the customer's not always right Sometimes. You know we can stand our ground every now and then too, and so really, yeah, how do we handle conflict with each other? How do we handle conflict with a customer? You know those are skills that are in an online day and age are becoming less and less, so how do we actually stand in front of another human being and say, hey, listen, I know you're frustrated, let's figure out how we can work through this kind of deal. So hopefully we're teaching them things that can go far beyond Dig World. Chris: Yes, for sure. So we're here in Texas. You started this business here. Tell me some of the things that you found, or have found, to be advantageous about being a Texas-based business. Jacob: Oh man, so many, one. Obviously. Just the people right, the people buy in and they love it. They love supporting the business, they love supporting what we're trying to do here. And so, culturally, it's amazing to be here in Texas. We were fortunate when we started we had a partnership with Texas A&M, my alma mater and so I'm a little biased there but really getting their buy-in, and a university that saw what we were trying to do and said, hey, listen, let's go capture the next generation of construction workers and teach them about Texas A&M. Yes, but let's also teach them about this great industry of construction. And then really, just the flexibility of Texas. You know there's not many states you can just go out and, for the first and foremost, be like, hey, listen, we're going to start a theme park and it's going to let kids operate construction equipment, right, the flexibility and you know we went through the whole rigmarole and everything with insurance and the filings, but really the adaptability of the state and going, yeah, that sounds great, let's do that. And then everybody behind it. It's just, it's been amazing. Chris: That's great. So I'd like to talk about leadership, and you know you're clearly, as a founder and CEO, leader, but how do you think those leadership qualities have developed over time and how would you describe your leadership style? Jacob: Yeah, I tell people a lot of times I think there's two versions of Jacob as the leader. There is pre-Pierce getting sick and then there's post-Pierce getting sick. Not that the goals have changed. The goals are still. Listen, you're running a business. You got to make money and you got to keep the doors open right At the end of the day. That's the name of the game. But mindset around those have changed. The intensity around that has changed and the bigger picture around that has changed. So, for example, pre Pierce getting sick and our cleaning business, we lose a contract. I'm pretty frustrated. I'm probably a little panicky. We're getting a little desperate on how do we replace that contract. I'm driving the team harder. What are we selling? I'm micromanaging more because I'm feeling nervous and anxious. Right, post Pierce getting sick, the intensity is not gone, but the priorities are going hey, we lost the contract, okay, let's go home, let's reset. Tomorrow, we'll find another one. There's another one out there, let's go find another one. Right, and motivating the team that way, instead of fear-based whether it be my fear or the fear I'm instilling rather than going hey, we'll be fine, we're gonna keep doing what we're doing. We're gonna keep doing the X's and O's of the business and it will be there. And so I think, when failure of a grand opening and a grand closing comes, you go. Okay, listen, today was not a good day, today was a terrible day. However, I'm still here, my family's still here, and tomorrow we're going to figure out how we survive this and we're going to pick up and we're going to go to work tomorrow and we're going to figure it out, and then I think, at the end of the day, I'm a servant leader. I hope our high school kids see me doing things that I asked them to do. I hope they see me cleaning the bathrooms. I hope they see me doing this, not to manipulate them to saying, hey, you know, oh, jacob's doing it, I should go do it. No, I want you to see that we're all in this together, right, and I believe in it this much that I'm going to get in here with you and I'm not going do at that point is they go? Yeah, I'll go clean the bathrooms, right, and hey, jacob asked me to do it, I'll go do it because I know he would do it right, rather than the dictator style leadership or the authoritarian style leadership. So I think for me it's coming alongside them, servant leadership, getting in the trenches, dealing with the disgruntled customers and not just making them deal with it, all of those kinds of things, I think. Build in the goodwill with the team and they see somebody that wants to link arms with you, and then what it allows me to do is come alongside them on those times where I either have to discipline or I have to recorrect or reposition, and they go. Ok, I know. But I know at the end of the day, he loves me. I know at the end of the day, it's the best, even if he's firing me. You know at the end that you, moving on, I'm still going to be in your corner, and so I think I view my leadership in those two ways. Chris: I like that. I can identify with it as well, feel the same way. To me the servant leadership is so valuable, right? Your employees have to believe not only they've seen you do it, not that you will do it, they've seen you do it right, and that when you ask them to do it it's important and so that's great. You know, just thinking about the obviously a lot of stuff going on in our world and in any kind of different ways. But you know economically, you know legislatively, what are some of the headwinds, given all that that you kind of see facing dig world as you're kind of looking out over the next 30, 60, 90, 120 days, year, kind of yeah, yeah. Jacob: It's a great question. I would answer it two ways. One you know, as we look at the economics of our park and people coming to our park, you know what we feel like is we sit in that middle or probably lower to middle ground of your discretionary spending as a family, meaning. Meaning, as I compare it to a Disney right, and when the economy goes down a little bit or people are a little worried or nervous, the Disney vacation may go on the back burner. Right, because that's a significant financial investment into that. It's a great experience, but it's significant. Where we fall is on the lower end of that category, hopefully delivering the same memories and experiences and fun and joy, but the price point is significantly cheaper than that. So we feel in good times and in rougher times we hope to be a resource that allows those families to still create memories in that regard. Externally, as we look to grow franchises, the ups and downs of the economy can sway different investors. They can sway how they want to hold their money, what they want to do with their money, what they don't want to do with their money. Now my sales pitch to those individuals are hey, you could take your money and put it over here, or you could take your money and put it over here and you could kind of be in control of it, but you also can create something that's bigger than you for your community, for your family, things like that. So it it will be interesting to see what the next probably call it 120 days have in store for us as far as how we're received on the investment side. But right now, our focus on this phase one is how do we get five franchises across the finish line, and right now, praise the Lord, we're very close to hitting that number. And then we got to get them open and we have to produce right. Chris: At the end of the day, you have to produce and I understand you have two open now or the second one's about to open. Dallas will be open by the end of this year. That's correct. Okay, that's great. So I gotta ask. I mean, you're talking about disney, made me think. Do you have some kind of mascot or anybody like in a big suit when you show up at dig world? You know? Jacob: so. But he said I literally got off a phone call earlier we are, we've honed it into kind of two mascots that we want, and so that will be released soon once the debate can be decided within our team of which way we're going. Chris: Okay very good. So let's just kind of turn to a little more casual side. Yeah, you said you and Katie went to A&M. I'm taking those two data points and making an assumption you're a born and raised Texan, it's a great question. Jacob: It's a great assumption, but no, I am a son of a healthcare executive, and so I was born in Alabama, raised all over Texas, graduated high school in South Carolina, then came to A&M, met my wife, who is a Houstonian, who's a Katie girl and much smarter than I am, and so she had a real job after college, and so I followed her here and I've been here ever since. Chris: Okay, Great story. So just talking about Texas, you know you all have a favorite spot. You like to go within the state to get away, maybe vacation time. Jacob: Yeah, you know it's funny whenever, within the state, melissa and I we love to head over to San Antonio. We love the Hill Country side. We like a couple of the resorts there. That's our, our getaway. And then I think you know when we're getting away. Now we've got young kids. Grandparents and cousins and nephews live in waco and so we head over to waco. We spend a lot of time there. But if melissa and I are just getting away and staying in the state, we're gonna head probably over to san antonio very good. Chris: That leads me to the next question then do you prefer tex-mex or barbecue? Jacob: oh man, that's. Oh man, see that one. That's a tricky question because we'd have to be like specific in the subcategory right. Like'd have, we'd have to like pit two against each other. Chris: I hear you. Everyone says that that's the hardest question saved for last. Jacob: Oh, my goodness, I'm going to have to go barbecue. I'm going to have to go barbecue. Chris: All right, all right. I love how you're going to break it down, though, cause I'm the same way. You know. It's like. Well, I don't know, it depends, I mean it depends it just. Jacob: You know, on Friday night this weekend I had Tex-Mex. On Saturday I had barbecue. So you know like it literally is, but I'd have to go barbecue. Chris: All right, very good. Well, jacob, thank you again for taking time to come on the podcast. I mean your story, obviously from the start of it with Pierce, was amazing, but just such a creative, unique thing that you've created. And you know, just wish you the best of success, thank you. Thank you, honored to be here today. Thank you for taking time Special Guest: Jacob Robinson.

In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. She takes us through her journey of transforming the healthcare industry - from an unexpected start managing facilities to founding Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Chantell's strategic moves in positioning her company through the pandemic era offer key leadership lessons. We discuss her transition in fostering trust and respect amongst staff, vital for a positive culture, especially in difficult times. Her reflections on setbacks emphasize emotional readiness for both failures and leadership burdens. Wrapping up on a lighter note of future dreams, from travel adventures to family time, Chantell offers a well-rounded portrait of an impactful leader. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chantell Preston shares her unexpected entry into the healthcare industry and how it led to her role in developing numerous healthcare facilities across Texas. We discuss Chantell's experience founding and successfully exiting Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation, a company focused on traumatic brain injury patients. Chantell explains her strategic decisions and leadership style transformation during the COVID-19 pandemic, emphasizing the shift from an authoritarian to a collaborative approach. We explore the importance of trust, respect, and open communication in maintaining a positive team culture, especially during challenging times. Chantell recounts the lessons learned from entrepreneurial setbacks, including the emotional toll of difficult business decisions and the significance of building strong relationships. We discuss the tactical choices made to support frontline workers and expand service lines during the COVID-19 pandemic. Chantell reflects on her evolution from a closed-off, authoritative leader to a compassionate and empathetic one, inspired by her business partner's example. We talk about the challenges and liberation of breaking societal norms as a female leader and the importance of achieving work-life integration. Chantell shares her personal dreams of travel and family time, highlighting the difficulty of balancing a busy work schedule with personal aspirations. We discuss the advice Chantell gives to young entrepreneurs, emphasizing the importance of focus, having a supportive team, and being ready to pivot when necessary. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Facilities Management Group GUESTS Chantell PrestonAbout Chantell TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Chantell Preston, CEO of Facilities Management Group. Chantell is a self-described risk taker who emphasizes the importance of establishing trust and respect in building a strong company culture. Chantell, I want to thank you for coming on Building Texas Business. I appreciate you taking the time. Chantell: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate you inviting me to come on. Chris: So let's just kick this off by telling us a little bit about Facilities Management Group, the company you're currently CEO of. Chantell: Sure, so Facilities Management Group. We're really a platform company. We own and operate healthcare facilities throughout Texas. Initially, when I took it on, we had a hospital in Las Vegas, but we divested that and sold that to a local system there, and so now our main facilities are here in the Texas market. Chris: Okay, and I know this isn't your first venture in the healthcare space Tell us a little bit about how you got involved or found yourself being an executive in the healthcare industry. Chantell: Sure, it's kind of an interesting story, chris. I don't think any of us know when we graduate from college where we're going to end up in life, and I can truly tell you I never thought it would be health care. So you know, straight out of school I got a great opportunity to go to work for a small company that was developing ambulatory surgery centers. Didn't know anything about ambulatory surgery centers but I knew the folks that were in the organization. So took the leap of faith and I just wanted to learn every aspect. I felt like if? How could I go out and sell things if I didn't realize or understand how they were operated? So took the opportunity to really dive into the health care and learn both the development aspect as well as the operational aspect. Best thing I ever did. From there just kind of soared, I became very niched in regards to building healthcare facilities. I've built over 65 hospitals in my career, whether they're LTACs, rehabs, full acute care hospitals, linear accelerators. So I just kind of found a niche. I really enjoyed watching something from concept to operations. However, I got to a certain point in my life I decided I didn't want to be a consultant forever. So my previous partner and I started a company called Atlantic Health Group. We were going to be a surgery center company. We realized the market was saturated at that point, so we started a company called Mentis Neuro Rehabilitation. Mentis was assisted living rehabilitation for traumatic brain injury patients. To be honest, we really didn't know much about it when we started. We built an amazing team to operate the company for us and then we realized how much need there was for traumatic brain injury patients, so we continued down that path. I continued to build facilities to generate revenue, to build Mentus, so we didn't have to raise huge capital. So we bootstrapped everything together and we took Mentus from concept to exit in 2015. Chris: Wow. Chantell: So we exited the mid-market. And then comes back to what are you going to do with your life from there? So I really stayed for about a year and realized that just my heart wasn't in it anymore. Things changed. We built such an amazing culture, so really focused on what was the next phase of my life. That's when I ended up taking over facilities management group. One of my partners that was operating the entity got ill and so I stepped up and said I'll take over, and that's when we really developed Facilities Management Group. At that point, we had a lot of individual facilities running independently of each other and we wanted to build a platform company that we could have some synergistic services across all facilities. So that was 2018. And so that was a great ride. I learned a lot. Six months after I took over, covid hit so you can only imagine what happens with the hospital industry when that happens? Chris: Yeah, I'm sure there's. We'll get into that because there has to be a lot of good stories there, but I can't help but notice that, as you told, that is, you talked about being thrown in cold, knowing nothing about the industry healthcare that is but then you found yourself evaluating opportunities for surgical centers and then the mental health, brain injury type of facilities that you mentioned. I want to talk about what type of processes did you go through, and or with your partners, to evaluate the opportunities when you're like, okay, what's next or what else can we do? What are some of the things that you found to be valuable and useful in going through that process, as well as maybe some of the things you wish you hadn't done? Chantell: Sure, Great question, chris. You know, as we all go through our career, we, you know, we try to evaluate things. Everybody looks at things very differently and you know you probably say I'm a calculated risk taker. So, again, I wanted to be able to find a path where, you know, my number one was I wanted to help people. You know, I think most of us get into health care because we have this naivety that we really, you know we can make a change in the world, and I think we do, just maybe different than what we anticipate when we go in. So I think it's really about when I would look at each of the opportunities that came up. You know, again started at a small company and I wanted to learn as much as I could, and then I got recruited from there. Once I found a niche for myself, I didn't really have to go looking for jobs. People would come to me, but then it was like, okay, I learned some hard knocks at the same time as to going to work for folks, because they throw a lot of money at you or they say, oh, we're going to create this amazing environment, and then you get in and you realize this is not really a productive place for me to be and in those situations you just try to take, learn everything you can, you know, gain as much experience and knowledge, because I look at everything as a stepping stone to the next place. So when we, you know, when we started Atlantic, it was kind of an interesting scenario because I had a ton of development partners that I had already established that I was working for as an independent consultant. I didn't really want to be a consultant forever. I wanted to build something, I wanted to have some security. So I actually talked my partner, my business partner, into leaving his organization because he had a skill set that I didn't have. So he was really more around the finance side of things, operationally, and I was really more the development aspect. And so you know, and I was really more the development aspect, and so you know, I think it's really important when people look at their careers, a everything in life is a stepping stone to the next thing. I mean, you have to look at it that way. What can I get out of this particular situation to advance my overall objectives later? Chris: Sure. Chantell: But also who you're getting in bed with and I speak a lot to entrepreneurs. It's really important to pick your partners wisely. And when you say your partners, you know I tell people it's like a marriage. Oh well, we're best friends. We're never going to, you know, get sideways with each other. Well, it is important that when you're going into a partnership, you know even a company is what's it going to look like if we got divorced? I look at everything as it's kind of like a marriage. Chris: No, no, Look, I advise clients all the time into the same thing. You know, be careful, Don't do 50-50 unless you have a good deadline provision. But it is they are. I can attest from being on the litigation side of these things. They are truly business divorces when they go south, and we always tell people it's better to invest up front to getting your documents right. You don't want to think you and your best friends could ever go south, but there's a reason. There's a bunch of law firms and lawyers that stay busy because that's what happens. Chantell: Right, and I was fortunate not to go through that. To be honest, it was just, I was very cognizant and I think when I was younger I didn't realize the value I brought. So I felt like safety was in numbers, right, and sometimes we create an environment around us because it makes us feel protected and then at the end of the day you go, wait a minute, what about me? And so you know again, lessons learned. You know, we also have a tendency, you know, adhd. We're all entrepreneurs. We like to do lots of different things. You know a few mistakes that we made along the way was we started getting into things that we didn't know too much about, because it was the shiny penny oh this is great, let's go do this and then, oh my God, we would either lose a ton of money. You know a lot of headaches. We didn't stay focused on our core business and it kind of school of hard knocks a little bit. It took us a little bit of time to realize that, hey, we need to solely focus on, you know, our core business, mentis, and let's stop messing around with all this other stuff that seems like it's fun and exciting. Let's stay focused on our core business until we reach. You know what we were hoping to accomplish. Chris: That's great advice. The discipline of staying focused on your core and what you do best can't be overstated. So many people lose their way because of the distractions, and you're right. They end up costing more money than you expected and taking more of your time away, and it takes it away from your core, so then it suffers. Chantell: That's right, and people don't realize. You know, time is the one thing we'll never get back in life, and so if you're looking and focusing your attention on something else, what are you losing at your core business? And I see a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people oh, I want to go do this and this. Again, we did it Not successful, but we did it. And so now, when I'm looking at things and where do I want to go next, it's where do I want to spend my time, knowing that if I spread myself too thin or too many things, I won't be as successful as I want to be. Chris: Yeah, that's great advice. I hope people are taking notes on that. So let's go back. You kind of left us a minute ago taking over the reins at FMG, right before COVID hits. Obviously, you have to manage through that in the healthcare space. Take us back to that time. What were some of the things that you learned, having to manage through such an uncertain period of time? Chantell: When I took over FMG there was a couple things that identified very quickly. Again, they were all running as independent facilities and there was no collaboration and really the culture there was no culture. You know, in my previous organization with Mentis and a lot of the companies I've been involved with, culture was huge. You know, you wanted people to want to be there and fortunately we were able to quickly build a culture that we felt and it was actually proven true through COVID that people wanted to be there. You know I was very visible in our facilities. I wanted people to know me, I wanted to hear what they had to say. As a new CEO coming in, you know, tell me how can we help you do your job more effectively? How can we help you be happier? You know, looking at things in a different perspective, other than you need to be here nine to five every day, do exactly what we want, right? You know, when COVID hit, the uncertainty of everything I mean we were. Some of my facilities were emergency rooms at the time, some of them were hospitals. You know we had limited staff, we had limited services. You know, when COVID hit it was really interesting because with the unknown of nobody really understanding the magnitude of what was happening. It was decisions on a day to day basis. Right, you know, everything was a crisis every single day. It was a very time for me, as a leader, to figure out how could I continue to hold on to this culture that we had built so we didn't lose staff, right? So, but also giving our staff the ability to take a break every once in a while, even though we didn't really have folks to fill in for them, in for them. So it was a time that we really had to bond together. And again, me being in our facilities during that time, even though I really couldn't do much to help, but at least showing my face, saying hey, I'm here with you and I'm standing beside you, especially on some of those hard decisions, I think made a big difference for our success. Chris: Yeah, you raised an interesting point there because first of all, I mean I it's been four years and maybe the memories start to fade but health care frontline workers, right, that was ground zero for the response. So I can only imagine the taxing environment for your employees. Most CEOs can be there shoulder to shoulder with their employees and maybe actually get in, you know, step in on the manufacturing line or pick up something and help out in the shop, and if you're not a licensed physician or a PA or a nurse, you can't right, you couldn't do the work, you could just be there to encourage them. Chantell: That had to be a challenge. You know you're right, because we just want to jump in and help and but there was a lot of things that what I could do and again you know, spirits high, helping clean, I mean there was, you know, again it wasn't above anybody. We had to kind of all throw hands in, all hands on deck, to help out in any aspect. And so we did what we could to try to motivate and try to help give people some breaks and give them the resources that they needed, and that was a big thing. That we did was just trying to get the resources that they needed, and so it was a trying time, but again we came across. You know, as a CEO, I wanted to be able to expand our service lines because we knew what was coming. And you know, after we got kind of settled in and we realized this was going to be a longer, a longer path than we thought, we converted all of our ERs into hospitals so we could provide additional service lines. So there was things that we could do on the strategic and on the management side where we weren't necessarily in the trenches, but yet it provided our staff some amazing resources that they needed. Chris: So you talked about culture and how important it is. It doesn't have to necessarily be at FMG, but just in your role as a leader. What are some of the things that you have done to try to build that positive, sounds like collegial team environment type of culture at the various organizations you've been? I mean, is it kind of the same playbook every time, or you know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed, how do you adapt? Funny question I'm just going to. I'll give you a quick story. You know? If so, what is it? And if it's changed? Chantell: how do you adapt? Funny question. I'm just going to give you a quick story. You know there's a lot of people that have been with me for the last 10, over 10 years, so they've seen me kind of develop as a better leader as I've gotten a little bit older. So in my old days, I have to tell you I was probably very authoritarian, very dictatorship it's my way, no way. And leadership, it's my way, no way. And then, as I've gotten a little bit older and through you know my role at FMG I realized I can't continue to lead like this. This is not how to get the most productivity out of my staff, and so I changed a lot in regards to how to build a culture. And so now you know people will tell you these are the four principles I use authenticity, I want to build trust and respect. You know again, you know I'm going to be very direct with individuals. I don't beat around the bush and I think anybody that knows me knows that. Collaboration I want people to have the ability to have a say. I want them to take ownership. You know used to as my way. You know we're going to do things my way. Now it's let talk about it Because, in today's world, I want my staff members they're there for a reason and that's to come together in a path or a process that everyone feels like is going to be beneficial to the organization. Now, it doesn't mean I won't give them my thoughts, but again, that collaboration and that belonging, I want them to feel like they're part of the team. Whether you and I both know, in an organization everyone's valuable and I want everyone to realize how valuable each member is and where they fit within that organization. Authenticity, trust, collaboration yeah, those are communication too, you know. Chris: Oh, for sure. Chantell: We used to be like we wouldn't tell anybody anything, you know, just say here's our goals, to go do them. Now we really talk about why you know and really have those hard conversations about this is you know the company. And when we went through COVID I know everybody's tired of hearing the COVID stories, but when we went through COVID, you know we would tell them hey, this is why we're doing this. And it wasn't just oh, they're causing us all these headaches. You know they're pushing stuff down. No, it was. We're doing it because of X, y and Z, and that made people appreciate it a little bit more, versus us just shoving things down. Chris: Yeah. Chantell: And so I think communication is a big one as well. Chris: Couldn't agree more. I mean, I think you know, at the end of the day, all those things sound really good and are important, but if you're not communicating effectively, it won't matter. That's right. So, something that occurred to me, I want you to talk a little bit about being innovative, because I know for sure at FMG, because I just know enough about the story that in the middle of all that y'all did some pretty innovative things that other competitors of yours weren't doing. That required some really quick on the fly decisions to get some innovative things going. So tell us about that. It helped the patients and it helped your facility. Chantell: Sure, you know, one of the perks of dealing with a smaller organization is we can make quick decisions. So when all of this was happening, you know we did have to get innovative in regards to how we were running tests, how we were treating the patients, what we were doing when we couldn't find patients higher level of care. So there was a lot of innovation that we did, you know, whether it was streamlining our processes, whether it was, you know, the equipment that we were bringing in to try to mitigate certain things. I mean, there was a lot of stuff that we did that if we weren't going through that time, we probably wouldn't have been forced to do so quickly, if that makes sense. And so there was some stuff that we tried to do in regards to you know, I'm trying to think of some specifics. A lot of it's around the labs and the testing side of making sure that our patients are being treated in-house versus having to send things out. I mean, we just tried to do everything we could to control our own destiny. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslik, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermiller.com, and thanks for listening to the show. Chris: Well, for example, I know one of the things you did was very quickly developed an app so patients could schedule an appointment that you didn't have before. Chantell: Yeah, that's correct. We tried to do some things so people would mitigate being around other, you know, possibly infected COVID people. So, yes, we did do some things to try to limit exposure during that time, just because, again, we didn't know what was going to happen long-term. Chris: So I guess one thing that people may not know about you that we want to talk about is, in addition to this professional you know journey you've described, you do a lot and have done and continue to do a lot where you advise other entrepreneurs. I want to ask you a little bit what are some of the kind of the key nuggets of advice that you tend to provide, and maybe what are some of the mistakes you see young entrepreneurs making that you try to correct before what still can be corrected, I guess Sure, it's kind of interesting. Chantell: The world has changed a lot in regards to entrepreneurship. You know, in our day it was just work your ass off. You know 24-7 and just try to climb the ladder. You know now, with some things that have happened, you know, with technology, sometimes they have this misperception that it's just going to be easy, it's going to be rainbows and unicorns all the time. It's not. There was many nights we'd sit at the bar going, holy shit, how are we going to make payroll? So I mean again, I think it's bringing that true realism back into their world of hey, you're not going to go get a CPT code for a device that doesn't exist in six months. It just doesn't work like that. And I think sometimes these young entrepreneurs are given almost bad counsel because they think that things are just so easy. Well, so-and-so did it, so I can do it. I see that a lot. I do get the opportunity to speak to some of the entrepreneurship classes up at UT and I do probably focus more on the negatives versus the positives, because I've always learned more from my failures and my successes. Some of the things of hey look, be focused. You know you don't have to have everything figured out, but have a pretty good path of where you're headed. You know, and surround yourself with the folks that are going to build you up, not break you down. You know, as an investor as well. I look at who's the team. If you've got a good jockey, I'm going to go ahead and support you. Having that right team in place is so critical and you want it to be more than just one individual. You know you want to make sure if they get hit by a bus, somebody else is right there ready to take the company. So I think that there's just little things that you know. I would probably give some insight to the entrepreneurs of you know, again, you're going to have good times and bad times. The bad times will come and go. But again, being willing to pivot If something's not working, don't wait too long to pivot or to reevaluate maybe certain aspects of the organization. Chris: Okay, so you brought it up, but I was going to. You said you learn more from your failures than successes, so tell us a story it's story time now, chantel a failure or setback that you've encountered, experience that you survived because you're sitting here today, and what that learning was and how it made you better. Chantell: So we talked a little bit earlier about how we got a little bit outside of our wheelhouse of oh, let's go do some different things, because we, you know, have been very successful at what we were doing. We were trying to purchase a hospital group out of bankruptcy. We thought, oh, how hard can this be? We can run organizations, we can run ASCs. Why can't we do this? It was a very eye-opening experience because when we got in there, we hadn't really had a path forward as to what we were going to do or how we were going to do it. It was just like, oh, we'll figure it out as we go. We also didn't think about other things that could come in and really impact us that we couldn't control. So we had purchased, we were in the process of purchasing this group, they were in bankruptcy, and then we had a flood. Well, we had just finished remodeling a hospital here in town. The flood came in. It flooded the hospital. At that point we were kind of at a place where there was not much more we could do. It was a horrible time to have to tell all those individuals that worked so hard with us that we were going to have to let them all go and you know lessons learned. You know there was positives in there because I remember the day we were getting ready to tell these poor individuals we were going to fire them the night before. You know we probably drank too much and you know it was a very emotional situation because I'd worked hand in hand with these individuals for so long. Chris: Sure. Chantell: And I remember having to tell them in tears I mean, you know, I know we're not supposed to be emotional, but these are these people's livelihoods. I was emotional, I you know I was not in a great place and I remember, after that happened, one of the the janitors came up to me and she said don't worry, chantel, we're going to be okay. But are you going to be okay? Chris: Oh, wow. Chantell: And I realized, you know, even through this failure, we had built such great relationships with these individuals and made them feel valued in so many ways that you know again, that's probably a really good example of learning myself of how important it is for relationships you know and building that trust as a leader. Chris: Well, to what to point you made just a minute ago. There is emotion in business. For sure, people try to carve it out and maybe for decades that's been the mentality, but it's ignored the reality that there's emotion in business and you're affecting people's lives when you are hiring them and when you're firing them. So you know people that lose sight of that are missing the boat, and I think how you manage the emotion in the business is one thing, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's not there. Chantell: No for sure, and you know, again, my old days I would have never showed, you know, a whole lot of emotion. I will tell you, though, being authentic with people just builds more trust. And look, some people say I'm very challenging to work with. You know, because I'm very specific, I'm very direct, but you know where you stand with me at all times, you know, and I had a situation last year where I had to let someone go, and it was. I mean, I really love this person as an individual, but this just wasn't the right place for them, and I tried very hard to mentor, to get him to that place, and I just couldn't, and it was very emotional to have to say, hey look, this is not, you know, the best place for you. The greatest return was six months later. They contacted me and said thank you so much. The best thing you ever did was have that conversation, and now I found a place where I love I'm being respected, and so, again, I think we all have emotion. It's as you mentioned, it's how you use it. It's okay for people to realize that you're human. I mean you know I'm human, I mean, and so I have emotions, and there's people I like and, again, you are impacting their lives and they're impacting yours. Chris: For sure, and I mean I have a number of stories similar to the one you just shared, where you run into an employment situation that's not working. You, knowing that it's not working, have to make a decision, expend a ton of emotional energy over it, worried about it. My experience has been, I think I can say, almost every time, despite that hard conversation, that person ends up in a better place because it's where they were meant to be. And we say this all the time. We're not trying to be the largest organization. We just want to be the best for those that fit with our mission and what we're passionate about and our values. And doesn't mean we're right for everybody and that doesn't make people a bad person. Chantell: That's right. Chris: There there's another organization where they're going to fit. Chantell: And and, and she did say to me she goes thank you, because I always knew where I stood with you and thank you for always being very direct. You know and that's the other thing people hide from those conversations. I'd rather have those conversations, you know, leading up to it. Look, here's the expectations. Let's talk about how you can get there, and I'm always happy to mentor and advise, but at some point you have to say, hey, look, this just isn't the right place. Chris: Right. Chantell: And so, and that's OK too. Chris: So let's talk a little bit about as you built these companies. You've had to have key stakeholders and relationships with them that are part of the success, that's vendors, customers. Let's talk about what are some of the things that you've learned that have helped to kind of build, nurture and grow those types of strategic relationships, if you will. Chantell: Sure, most of the people that I still work with, I've worked with for many years and I think you know I tell people all the time my integrity is the only thing that I really is mine in this world. My kids have everything else, but my integrity is mine. I think it's really being fair with people. You know I'm loyal to a fault, but I'm also again, I don't want to say high maintenance, but I have great expectations of people as well. And so if you look at a lot of the vendors, you know, again, they've been with me forever because I'm very loyal to them, I'm very fair, I'm very direct and they're good to me. Chris: Right. Chantell: You know, and I think as I've gotten older I had never realized the importance of relationships and how you have to be very intentional with giving and taking Right Right. But I also know with my vendors, they do a great job for me. I'm going to, I want to give them out to everybody else. I mean, I'm going to drive business their direction. And so I think that you know, with the stakeholders, a lot of people make a mistake of. You know everyone's got to win. You know that's just the reality. There's an abundance for everyone in life. You know, one of my best friends is a direct competitor of us. We laugh all the time. We can't be friends in public, but we can be friends behind closed door. But there's an abundance for everyone in life and so if you treat people like that and you're fair, I think you know you win, everyone wins. Chris: Everyone wins, and that's the thing I think finding the way where everyone can win, sure, and there's the value in kind of reciprocity, right, when someone does treat you well, that you obviously should treat them well in return. But have that be a lesson how you should be treating others that you're coming into contact with, right, absolutely, absolutely. So you mentioned this earlier because I like to talk about leadership style and you've kind of alluded to some of your evolution. Any more you can share kind of on how you view your style, how you feel like it's evolved and maybe some of the things that have helped you make those steps to kind of grow from the command and control to the more collaborative leader. Chantell: I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness, I think when we're younger, we think we're invincible and we do no wrong. I think self-awareness has been critical for me, just for personal growth, right. So I also realized, you know, I wasn't getting the most out of the people and I realized that how I came in impacted everybody around me, if that makes sense. Chris: Sure. Chantell: So when I walk in and I'm closed off, everyone's going to scatter. If I walk in and I'm in a great mood and I say hello to everybody, your energy that you put out, you get back. And so I think, as I've gone through my career path, I've realized that, getting more and really I had a great partner, business partner, that he would talk to everyone. I wondered how he got anything done some days because he was just the most jovial guy that loved everyone and he would sit and listen to people for hours and I used to say I don't know how you do this. Isn't this driving you crazy? You know, I just I want, I don't want to know what time it is, I want to know, yeah, I want to know what time it is. I don't want to know how to build the clock. And I realized how much everyone respected him because he not only cared about them on the job, he cared about the whole person. Right, and people felt that. And I finally asked him one day. I said can you teach me how to be like that? Because I want people to realize I do care. I may not come across and show it, and so I that's how I kind of evolved, of taking that time and realizing ten minutes out of my day of sitting down and really focusing and being present with people, how much more they wanted to be there, how much more productive they were, and so it's really again being the leader that you have to establish boundaries. I'm not saying you, you know, let everybody circumvent their ladder, but having the ability to really show how much you care for those individuals and also what's going to put them in a position to be a better employee, right, right. And look, I went through a big thing with my team about working from home. Okay, I hate working from home, ok. Chris: I hate working from home. I'm just going to tell you that I like the collaboration. I like everyone in the office. You know that you're in good company. There was literally an article in the online Houston Business Journal this morning about that topic and how everything is swinging back to five days a week in the office. Chantell: That's right, and it was a big fight in my office about that and I finally said, okay, let's compromise, because I realized that some of them were driving an hour both ways, okay. So Mondays and Fridays we have home days. Tuesday, wednesday, thursday, we're all in the office. So again, I met them where they wanted to be and how could they be most effective. And I realized, having that time at home, where they didn't have 5,000 people walking in their offices every day, they were more productive. And so again it's you know. You know you asked me a specific question about how I've changed. I mean, I've really come, you know, 180 in regards to who I was many years ago versus how I am now. Chris: Well, and what I hear you saying is there was an evolution and development in your leadership style that started to focus on and demonstrate humility and empathy, absolutely, you know, going back to kind of the work remote thing. I think those things, what you've got going on, can be successful because you have to start with why are we here? It's the why around the company, and we have to all agree that the company has to survive in order for any of us to have any benefits. That's right, right and so what's that going to take? And then where can there be some compromise around? You can't sacrifice productivity and you can't sacrifice delivery of services or you won't have the business. Right and right. It's really to me, getting clear around that, communicating, that we talk about communication with clarity and really everyone understanding the why absolutely, and I'll just we'll talk about the elephant in the room also being female, I mean. Chantell: So in my younger days I thought in order for me to gain respect, I had to be that authoritative bitch. You know. Basically Because that's what society told me, you know in order for me to be able to play in a man's world, I had to really be that person. You know, as my career, and I got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission. You know, I realized, got to a point where I didn't need anybody's approval or permission I realized, wait a minute, I can be my authentic self. I can be compassionate, I can be empathetic and I can still be a damn good leader at the same time. Chris: That had to be liberating. Chantell: It was very liberating, and I try to instill this with a lot of the women that I talk to now. It's okay to be who we are. Let's use our innate qualities that make us such great individuals in our professional lives. You know, and I mean again, people say I'm aggressive. That's okay, I'll take it and I can be, but it enables me to also utilize what I need to build the culture and the team that I want, and so I think that's also been, you know, the last 30 years. It's also changed a lot, you know, as a society, but that's also breaking the societal norms of, oh, I have to be a certain way in order to be a good leader. I don't think that's true anymore. Chris: I agree with you Again. I think there's been an evolution in how we think about business, corporate America, whatever. And again I go back to as long as we realize that there are certain fundamentals that, no matter what is going on, we have to do for the business to survive. Then we can look on the fringes and go okay, where can we make maybe some things a little more accommodating. Chantell: Exactly so. Chris: I like to talk about those a little bit. So what are some of the strategies that you've employed to kind of and you mentioned being a mom, being a leader, being an entrepreneur to help, not necessarily balance, but be successful in both your business and personal life? Chantell: Great question. Here's my theory behind that. There's no such thing as balance. Chris: That's why I didn't use the word. Chantell: I call it work-life integration. I can't say I've figured it all out, chris. I'll just be honest and I think it's being very intentional with your time. I used to let a lot of people control my time, meaning, you know, I was always willing to meet whenever they were available. I was willing to move around things because it was important to them. I've now really been intentional about taking control back of my own time, and that's time for myself in the mornings, that's time for my kids, but that's time for work too, and so I think we all have to establish boundaries. Because I used to work 24 seven. I'd be at dinner. I mean, my five-year-old used to say mom, please put the phone down, and I would thought I was that important that I had to respond to that email, right. That second, because that's how important I was. It's not true, and I think that really establishing you know we also try to get through our entire things to do list every day what are the top three priorities I really need to get done today? Okay, let's focus on those. First, because we all know once everybody starts coming to the office, you're going to get blindsided 5,000 different ways. So really prioritizing maybe three items that I need to get done that day and then all the rest of it's great if I do, but if I don't, it's okay to walk out of there at 4.30 to go to my kids' game, right. And so I'm really trying to be intentional with my time. I'm not going to say I'm successful all the time. Chris: You know, but I've really tried with that. You have to keep in mind no one's perfect right, but I think, if you have, those intentions, that thoughtfulness about how you're going to approach your day, and I totally agree with the work-life integration. I think that's a much better way to think about it than balance, I mean. Chantell: I've learned you can have it all. You just can't have it all at the same time. So, everything in life is about a give and take. It's about you know you're sacrificing something for something else. And so it's again where are you in your life, what's important to you? I mean, I waited late in life to have children, you know, and now I'm going to enjoy my kids. So again, doesn't mean I'm sacrificing my professional, but I do amazing conversation. Chris: I really appreciate it. I want to kind of turn to some less business topics that I like to cover with all my guests. So what was your first job? Chantell: My first job. I worked at Mount Asia when I was in high school. I loved scooping ice cream and I loved hosting birthday parties for small kids. Chris: Okay, so that was it. I was going to ask what Mount Asia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chantell: So yes, that was it. I was going to ask what Mountasia was. It's that golf off I-10. Chris: So, yes, that was my first job. I love it. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Chantell: Tex-Mex, of course. Chris: All right. And if you could take a sabbatical for 30 days, where would you go? What would you do? Chantell: Oh gosh, A sabbatical for 30 days. Chris: Does that exist I? Chantell: don't know. I think I would really just like to travel the world. You know, I spent so much time working I would never take more than two days off at a time. I never got to see a lot of the world, and so I think it would probably just grab my kids and just embrace a great trip with my family. Chris: That sounds great. Yeah, pick a spot and go enjoy it Absolutely. Very good. Well, again, this has been great. Thank you for taking the time to share your story Lots. Special Guest: Chantell Preston.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we sit down with Jerry Mooty, the CEO and Principal of @properties, Christie's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry takes us through his remarkable journey from managing partner at a law firm to heading a major real estate brokerage. He shares how resilience and adaptability allowed him to steer his business through the 2008 financial crisis and leverage opportunities arising from the pandemic. Jerry also provides insights into growing his firm through innovative hiring strategies and technological platforms that streamline agents' work. We explore lessons learned around overcoming adversity, strategic partnerships, and balancing operations with culture. His story offers a candid look inside one industry titan's challenges and triumphs in managing debt, acquisitions, and new ventures in sports and entertainment. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jerry Mooty shares his transition from being a managing partner at a law firm to creating and growing a real estate brokerage, including the challenges faced during the 2008 financial crisis and opportunities leveraged during the COVID-19 pandemic. We discuss Jerry's innovative business model that hires agent-attorneys and how it differentiates his brokerage in a competitive real estate market. The episode covers the technological advances at @properties, such as the Platform, which incorporates AI and a suite of tools to increase agent productivity. Jerry reflects on managing $60 million in personally guaranteed debt and the strategy behind transitioning to a debt-free business structure. Strategic partnerships and the process of acquisitions, especially in the technology sector, are explored along with Jerry's experience in due diligence and venture capital dynamics. Jerry discusses the significance of cultivating a company culture focused on employee well-being and the shift in his leadership style from operations to creating an enjoyable work environment. We touch on the importance of friendships in Jerry's professional journey and how they've influenced his career decisions and leadership approach. Challenges facing traditional real estate agencies like Remax are considered, with a focus on adapting to technological advancements and market changes. Jerry provides insights into his personal preferences, revealing his fondness for barbecue over tex-mex, adding a personal element to the conversation. The conversation highlights Jerry's efforts in expanding his business, including the recent launch of a sports and entertainment division and developer services to cater to specific client needs in the real estate market. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About @properties,Christie's International Real Estate GUESTS Jerry MootyAbout Jerry TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Jerry Mooty, ceo and principal of App Properties, christy's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry, by anyone's definition, is a serial entrepreneur, having started a law firm, credit card processing company, real estate development company and now a real estate brokerage firm. And Jerry tells aspiring entrepreneurs expect the unexpected. Jerry, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on and welcome you to building Texas business. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you too. It's been a while. Let's just start. You know you've done a number of things and we'll get into some of that, but currently, what's the business that you've started and you're currently today? Jerry: So Jerry Mooty from Dallas have a business now in the residential real estate brokerage industry. So I compete with Compass and some big national brands that most of the listeners will know about. Chris: And that company's called App Properties right. Jerry: Yes, sir, it's called App Properties Christy's International Real Estate. So we kind of have a working on that. Chris: And I know you're kind of got the Dallas area covered, but I think you've also recently expanded into Austin. Jerry: Yeah, so we started in Dallas proper with our headquarters, and then we opened a second office in Frisco, texas, and then we just recently, in the fall of 2023, opened up Austin, texas. Chris: So you know, as a recovering attorney, what was it that inspired you to get into the residential brokerage real estate business? Jerry: So, interesting enough, you kind of know my history, but I founded a law firm when I was 28 and I grew that into about 60 lawyers in four cities. As the managing partner, I started doing a lot of deals for the partners as opposed to practicing law, and I went down several paths. I had a litigation support company that I founded and grew that for the partners and then, you know, ironically got into a real estate development a little startup where I had a home building division building spec homes and I had a commercial division where I was doing some commercial projects. Raw land development had a resort under contract in Bernie, but, like a lot of people in real estate, 2009, 2010 came and that was the end of my glory days in real estate. All right. Chris: So then, what led you to? You know, get involved with app properties and then take this down, go down this rabbit trail. Jerry: Sure. So in 2012, I sold my interest in the law firm back to the partnerships. I didn't want to go back to practicing full time and then did quite a few different entrepreneurial things from about 2013 to about 2019. Any you know, I had a credit card processing company, backed by the Jones family, called Blue Star Payments that merged in with a tech company and we rebranded Blue Star Sports. We were backed by some pretty large VC firms Bain Capital and GenStar partners and Providence Equity and then obviously, the Jones family. So we acquired about 27 companies in about three years and then we sold that company in 2017. Then I was kind of looking for the next thing and I became the chief business and legal officer for a Silicon Valley tech company for a couple of years. They were in a big money raise and it wasn't going so well and I was deferring comp. So I started looking at what I was going to do next. One of the people in my network is a ex litigation real estate litigator. She had gone on and got married, had kids, got a real estate license and had a brokerage here in Dallas and her model was she was going and convincing unhappy lawyers to get the real estate license. So she had about 10 agents slash attorneys as her brokerage and she approached me to come in and run her brokerage for kind of like I did the law firm. So that piqued my interest enough so we went down that path. Sadly we didn't get to execute our documentation because they ended up having a divorce situation. And then two weeks later COVID hits and so I'm waiting to take my real estate license and not sure what I'm going to do after that. Come out of the first 90 days of COVID, the market's red hot, so I hang my license, I start doing deals for my network friends and start marketing myself as an agent. All the meanwhile I'm looking for something to buy or to own or start, and so that led me through developer relationship here in Dallas to the ownership group of at properties out of Chicago. They made that introduction, flew up and met with them and really fell in love with not only the brand and the culture but also the technology that they had built. Chris: Amazing story. There's a lot to dive into there. I may definitely want to go back some, but let's stay with that properties for now. And yeah, so you that's a. It's born out of COVID, I guess. Tell us, though you know, because I know just from you, know keeping up with you and then reading on the website you've experienced some like amazing growth in the last, I guess, three and a half years. Let's talk a little bit about that. And in talking about what you've done that you think has helped accelerate it, let's talk also about the maybe the pains with growing so fast. Jerry: Sure. So as I was looking to own something and this opportunity came up, I negotiated to purchase, you know, the North Texas territory. But I wasn't really prepared to launch because it was just me and I hadn't done a whole lot of recruiting. But I had some real estate deals in the pipeline that I needed to leave the current brokerage I was at before I papered those up. So I ended up launching at properties by myself just one agent, and got temporary space and, you know, true entrepreneurial spirit started recruiting, putting in my support team, landed a pretty big compass team right out of the gate and that kind of helped accelerate the visibility. And so the first, you know, six months we grew to 10 agents by Christmas. So it wasn't, we weren't a big brokerage, but we were putting things in place. By the next year we were about just under 40 agents. So we had a really good, successful year and, you know, quadrupling our size and then last year 2023, we doubled again to about 80 agents in Dallas. So we've been kind of there's been some faster growth brokerages, but we're very we're considered more luxurious. Our agents are more high producing agents and they take a little longer to transfer from one brokerage to another based on their pipeline and their restrictions. So now that we're three and a half years into this and Austin's really kind of been a little bit of a catalyst in the last six months because initially that territory wasn't available there was a Christie's affiliate there my corporate partner asked me if I wanted Austin about a year and a half ago. I said yes and so I started putting the play pieces in place and we launched that in September. We've added quite a few agents in the first 120 days over 70 something agents there. So all in we got about a hundred agents in Dallas, about 70 in Austin. So that's the good side of the business. The headaches, as you know as an entrepreneur, are several and many. Too many to list, but we'll cover a few. My most recent success story is I just hired a controller after three and a half years. So I've been doing the books, reporting to corporate, paying the royalties, paying the checks, paying the agents. So those are the things. As an entrepreneur, you really you put your blood, sweat and tears into these businesses and then you have to get to a certain level, to where you could start to relieve yourself of some of these pains. Chris: Yeah, that's so true, jerry. A lot of the people that I've had on before say exactly that that it's one when you're starting out, you're not big enough to outsource it or to hire for it, so you got to do it. But then it's getting to that point when you even when you are big enough and can afford it the level of trust and hiring the right person to hand off those key aspects of the business, so it frees you up to do the things as an entrepreneur or the visionary you want to be doing. So let's talk about that. What was it that you think helps get to a level of trust and comfort that it's time to hand off and it's the right person to hand off to? Jerry: Yeah, I think, based on my background of being an entrepreneur, you make a lot of friends and you kind of know. You learn the hard way. You hire the wrong person a few times and then, as you get older and more seasoned, you kind of know what to look for. In this instance, with that properties, I hired somebody I'd known for 35 years to come in and be my director of agents. I've known her since the SMU days, so the trust was already built in and then you're just very selective as you add the pieces to the puzzle to get those right people in place. So in half years we've let one or two people go, but we've been pretty successful in hitting the mark. Chris: That's great. So 70 agents or so you said. Have you started to implement any kind of processes that help with the integration process as you bring in these new people, so they understand kind of what the expectations are, what the benefits are for making the move? I mean, so where are you and what's the process you've gone through to kind of make that more institutionalized? Jerry: So the background for at properties and the corporate support we have is pretty important in how we've gotten here. They're a 25 year brokerage. They're the eighth largest in the country before acquiring the Christie's affiliate network, so they kind of had the processes in place. So it's buying. Whenever you buy a franchise and you wanna go down this path, you kind of get a little bit of assistance from and some help along the way on someone else putting the right pieces in place. I think what we've done a great job is integrate and implement those things that they've brought to the table, which I think revolves around a lot of our culture. You know, I think culture is so important in any business you have and so it's just we have fun things called at love, local events that came from corporate. So we'll pick a merchant somewhere in our geographical area, we'll partner with them, we'll send out a marketing campaign. Let's say it's a coffee shop and then whoever shows up at that coffee shop, our agents are there and we're running a tap for a coffee or a Danish in the morning. So that's kind of the community outreach piece. We use the word love strategically in all our marketing. So we say bringing the love to Dallas, bringing the love to Frisco and those types of things. So you know, recruiting is probably once you get the, once you get your overhead stabilized and your office space and those types of things. This is a business about relationships and recruiting. So I would say our two most important people outside of myself are our head of recruiting out of Frisco, head of recruiting out of the Dallas office, and so those have been very good hires. Chris: You know most, I think most businesses. It's hard to say they're not people, businesses or relationship, but certainly you know in the business you're in, where you're so customer facing right, you need good people that can go out and attract good customers, provide good service. But I have to imagine the last 18 months or so in residential real estate hasn't been the easiest. So can you talk a little bit about what you've done to help continue, promote one, promote the culture, to keep people positive and energized while managing through what has to have been a challenging time? Jerry: Yeah, absolutely so. Obviously we're all aware of how hot the market got, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, during COVID and post COVID. What that did in our industry is everybody wanted a real estate license because they saw all these transactions happen. So we had an influx of agents that came in that are young, inexperienced, but were here to make some money. And then, when the market turns, you kind of have the reverse effect. Those people were all eat what you kill, or 10, 9, 9 commissioned agents. They got to figure out how to pay the bills, and so we've had a pretty big exodus. Probably 15 to 20% of our agents across the nation have left the industry, and so that's been good for the sense of the people staying in it because you got less competition. But the ones that stayed in it most of them, have been through some of these ebbs and flows of the market, and so they kind of know how to prepare. And most of that revolves around when your transaction desk is slower, what are you ramping up to do? Are you ramping up your marketing, your postcard, social media content, are you revamping your website? And so those are all things that we, which the agents that work for us and part of our big, strong sales pitch based on the technology that we have. Chris: Got you Speaking of that on the marketing side, you know, are you seeing? I guess, one area or the other as far as marketing strategy work better, get more visibility or more return on investment. You see so much on social media, so it seems natural that that would be one, but I don't know if that's the leading one based on your experience or not. Jerry: Yeah, I think in pretty much every industry has been affected by the internet and no industry more so than real estate. I would say probably 10 years ago you saw a lot of print ads. You saw a lot of ads and you know business journals and those types of things trying to move property. But now it's really a digital world. We're using social media, we're using tools called AdWords, which is a retargeting tool to where it's essentially like if you went and looked at a pair of shoes at Nordstroms and then you left Nordstroms, those shoes are following you around. So we have the ability to target, geo track and geo target potential prospects and clients through our technology. Obviously, websites are important. Your collaboration tools that you're preparing a search for a prospect, like they're looking in this area for a certain price point. We have the ability to set those searches up and work with a prospect or a client on finding the home, ironically in the last price. I don't know when this started, but in the last year or so, almost 85% of buyers find the home they want before they hire an agent, or at least they zero it down based on how much information is on the internet. And so, really, as an agent, what you're trying to do is bring your expertise not only to get that transaction under contract, but then most of the work happens one second transactions under contract all the way through closing. Chris: Right, that is an amazing statistic 85%, but you're right. I mean, when everyone goes to the internet first, I think, to research or validate or do something. So it makes sense to me, but it's a big number. Sounds like you know here you use your work, technology and innovation and stuff quite a bit already since we started the interview. Some of this may have come from your franchise or some may have come from some things You're doing, but what are some of the things you believe are innovative in the way that you're operating the brokerage and helping your agents be successful? Jerry: Sure. So I think when you start understanding what different brokerages bring to the table in regards to support for their agent portfolio. Obviously marketing is a big one because they're pushing all the stuff out that we're talking about, but also the day-to-day operation of an agent is pretty important. Most brokerages large brokerages like Coldwell, banker, some of your biggest national brands are very antiquated when it comes to technology support. I would say there's two brokerages at the forefront. I'd say Compass is in second place and I think App Properties is in first place. And I say that because we've been building a technology stack called Platform, or our franchise or has, since 2003 and basically an agent logs in and does everything they need to do as an agent in one technology. When I interview agents and I show them the technology, they're blown away because they're in four or five, six different technologies throughout the day trying to get their social media posted or created, their transactions done over here, their docuSigns another technology they have to use, and we have everything in one place, and so that's been a real big selling point for us when we're recruiting these agents. Chris: Yeah, I mean anything to make your employees or, in your case, I guess, your contractor's life easier. Have you started to look into, or is this already incorporating any kind of versions of AI? Jerry: AI is already integrated. Nowadays, agents are always doing, as an easy example, they're doing descriptions of the properties. So now you can lean on AI to help you describe a $5 million house with five bedrooms, six baths by describing it into AI, and then it'll help you create that luxury description. So there's things like that. Obviously, our CRM has a lot of AI tied to it and so, yeah, that's the way of the future and it's getting more and more integrated and implemented into all our tools. Very nice, very nice yeah. Chris: All right. So I want to make you kind of reflect back. So yeah, this about, by your own description, not the first time you kind of started a new venture or stepped outside your comfort zone. So when you think about what you did I guess leaving, you know, maybe leaving the law firm or even some of the ventures you started while you were there, but going to credit card processing et cetera where are some of the lessons you learn through those ventures that you think prepared you for taking the step you did without properties and the steps you're taking now to grow so rapidly? Jerry: Yeah, I think if you're a serial entrepreneur like myself, I think the one thing you learn each time that you have an idea or you go down the path of starting something is you think you're going to get to the finish line a lot easier. It's your idea and you think you're going to do that. And I think probably in every instance including the law firm, including the credit card processing is one lesson is it just takes a lot to probably 10 times, 100 times more man hours and work and you got hurdles. That you're not expecting. But I think that's part of the reward too is why I'm built the way I am. You enjoy that when an obstacle comes and you get your way around it or over it. But I think you know frankly, it's probably what every entrepreneur says it's never as easy as you think it is. There's no get rich. You know we talked about most of what we do as lawyers and what I'm doing is a people game. You know you're hiring people and people disappoint, you know, and you're having to find different people sometimes, and so the lesson is just pride and expect the unexpected and you'll be okay and be able to sleep at night. Chris: I like that. Well, think about, is there a kind of a challenge or a failure setback that you can point to over the last, you know, 15 years, 20 years, whatever that you feel is maybe in some ways either a defining moment for you or one of the bigger learning moments that you got? You kind of got hit with a little headwind but you overcame it and because of that it's kind of helped propel you either in your own personal journey as a leader or, you know, in things you learned as an entrepreneur. Jerry: Yeah, I'd say you know, probably the biggest lesson learned of all time was me starting a real estate development company with a home builder and a commercial partner and, you know, diving into that with not a whole lot of experience, and so the challenge was obviously, in real estate, you're hoping to build something and sell it, and so the big challenges is if you build it and you borrow a bunch of money and you don't sell it. And so in 0809, 2010 is probably should have been my premier happiest days of my life. I'm on a law firm, I'm making some good you know coin on the law firm side, but I'm literally getting dragged through the mud financially on the real estate piece, and it's probably one of the reasons it's taken me 10 years to get back into it on the brokerage side, because I literally came out of that was some financial PSD. You know just could not sleep, you know got I mean health issues, depression, pretty much everything you can experience as an entrepreneur and so you figure out a lot about yourself when you're going through something like that, and you know you either stay in bed and talk about it or you pull up your socks and get out and try it again. Chris: That internal fortitude, you know I think any entrepreneurs got to have that or it's just not going to happen. I appreciate you sharing that. Were there some things that you did? You know that you know other than just I mean pure gutted out. You know, to help you kind of get through that. You know, leaning on family friends, I don't know. I mean I have to believe we've got some listeners and other people out there that you're going through the same thing. Jerry: Sure, I think where I lucked out was, you know, just to be frank, I was on about $60 million and personally guaranteed debt that was worth probably about 30 by the time I was trying to get out of it. So there wasn't going to be any family help. It was. It was hey with you, you know, in a loving way, of course. But when you dig a hole like that, you just got to figure out the best way out. And for me, where I benefited was I had a law degree and I was a lawyer and creditors could not touch the ownership interest in my law firm because it was tied to my license. So, through bankruptcy lawyers and all that stuff, I got educated on that and gave me the strategy to get through that situation and come out on the other end, which was one of the reasons I sold the interest of the law firm back to the partners, because that allowed me to have a little bit of a stream of income there in 2012, 13 and 14, while I got the credit card processing company going and getting these other things going. So there was, if there was, a silver lining, it was that fact, but it was still still pretty embarrassing financially and pretty embarrassing as a professional to really go through that over a three or four year period. Chris: You got to be hard but, like I said, I mean now that you've come through it, you know you can certainly appreciate the opportunities you have today and know that. You know I certainly probably learned some lessons of what to not do, going forward right. Jerry: Absolutely, I would say. The one lesson you learn in that scenario is you become a lot more frugal with your financial decisions and you know, especially in the banking industry, like one thing I'm proud of with that properties is we've never bought a bar to dollar. We got zero debt, and so those that's a probably a direct result of what I went through, you know, 15 years ago was I don't want to do another business where I got a bunch of debt and I'm trying to get that off and make money to live off of. Chris: That's great. So you mentioned earlier I think it was a credit card processing BlueStar, where you had some dealings with Bain Capital, and obviously you're dealing with a franchise or in this current business. So let's talk a little bit about maybe what you've learned through that. I kind of relate or maybe call those you know investors, partners, strategic partners. What have you learned as kind of some of the best ways to deal with them so you keep that relationship strong and healthy? And maybe it's something you know that happened that you're like I did this or they did. You know something that happened that soured the relationship, one they got to help our clients here at the firm you know, you know find themselves in those situations all the time, and so I'm curious you know what you know, what lessons you've learned through that process? Jerry: Yeah, so I would say getting involved in. And so when we had the credit card processing company, it was pretty a pretty simple model. We were going out and you know recruiting or or you know we're trying to sell merchants, you know restaurants Anybody who ran a credit card was it was a prospective client approached by a group who had an idea of buying up these technology companies in the youth sports space. So like, if you sign your kid up for soccer, you're there's usually a form and at the end of that form, whether it be the YMCA or anywhere else, you're paying a fee for your child to play that on that soccer team. So the model we had was take the credit card processing that we had built our own API and those types of things and bake it into a technology and go buy these companies. And interestingly, it was about how do you flip the model from a EBITDA and a multiple perspective. So these tech companies that weren't that large of companies because they were kind of geographically located, running different types of youth sports camps or whatnot, they weren't sophisticated enough and they were usually outsourcing their credit card processing to stripe or squares or something like that. So we would acquire these companies and bake in our own processing and from an ownership perspective, then that would change the multiple for maybe two times to 12 times because you have that reoccurring revenue stream coming into your business model. I literally probably learned more over that. First, 12 to 20 per month as we were acquiring these companies, doing due diligence on them, and I was the chief legal officer of the company, so I was in charge of all the due diligence. So we acquired 20 something companies and I bet I did due diligence on about 300 over two years. But it was really cool because I got to see what investors and power players in the venture capital market, how they looked at things and it's there's not a lot of emotion, it's numbers on paper and it's how do we make, how do we do this to this group of businesses, and then how do we sell it and make money. All about the return on investment, right. Chris: Exactly so. It's a. Jerry: It's very cutthroat which some businesses are, some aren't, but it was a great learning experience. I'd like to say I probably learned more in that two to three years Dealing with those big VC firms and listening to those meetings and kind of running point on due diligence than I probably learned in any other aspect of my life. Now, that's so, but that's so. Chris: Let's turn it back a little bit to app properties specifically. I know you've recently launched a new sports and entertainment division Tell us about that. What's going on behind that and what are you trying to accomplish so in the real estate brokerage? Jerry: world. There's different ways to market yourself right, and a lot of that boils down to your experience of your agent portfolio, and so some real estate brokerages are residential, some may just be commercial, but on our side we have, we've accumulated some agents that allowed us to create these divisions because of their experience levels. So land and ranch is one division, and then sports and entertainment is another division, and basically there's some criteria that we've put in place before an agent can say they're part of that team or that division dealing with professional athletes or celebrities on a number of occasions, some of the qualifications, but essentially, when somebody's moving like a professional athlete or a celebrity, there's a lot of sensitivity to that, or there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot more moving pieces, and so that specific division has agents who are, you know, experts in helping that transaction or that client Get from point A to B and solve a lot of problems along the way how to move their cars, how to move their kids into new schools, you know everything that comes along with kind of that type of transaction, as opposed to someone just buying a house and selling a house. So are we going to see? Chris: Super Bowl ads anytime soon, if I can at homecom I could afford it. Jerry: No, that's the goal is. We're really good because of how the clients affiliate network has come into play for us. I don't know if we mentioned this before the call or on the call, but you know our corporate partner ended up buying the Christie's affiliate network, which is a network of independently owned brokerages around the world. I think we have 900 offices in 54 countries, about 35,000 agents, and the reason Christie's the auction house, christie's the family who's owned that brand and that company for two hundred years. They sold the app properties because of the technology and we've been for two years bringing a worldwide global powerhouse network together into the technology to share referrals and data and information, and so that's been one of the one of the real keys to some credibility for us. Very cool. Chris: I think you just launched something else, maybe in the last week. Developer services Tell us about that. Jerry: So so again, we all know there's developers out here but we're not sure there's developers out here building multifamily building, you know, developing neighborhoods, multi-use, and so for a brokerage our size to have the ability to provide those services was kind of hard. So we ended up meeting a group of people out of Austin who came from Storybill and for those listeners who've heard about Storybill, that's a multi-billion dollar developer who went, ran out of money last summer. But we ended up negotiating their entire creative team to come over to Christie, our Christie's, and create this development services division. So starting with the chief marketing officer all the way down to their website development team, their on-site sales, so we've got a team of about 12 of superstars and they really fell in love with the Christie's brand to kind of move from Storybill into our umbrella, to kind of push those services out. So that'll be a huge win for us. Chris: So, as you sit there running all this, what is it that kind of triggers for you that this is an opportunity that makes sense, because not everybody can see that, and so there are things you're looking for. How do you go about making that decision and taking on the risk? Jerry: Yeah, so risk is a little less scary in our business because most everybody who works for our brokerage is a 1099 contractor. So we really have a pretty lean machine when it comes to we're running this right now with about seven full-time employees, three offices, so you got overhead from an office space perspective, but really you're kind of it's kind of a lean business model, which is one of the things that attracted me to it. And then obviously you have to have the people to be able to promote these different levels of services. So I think the thing that's been lucky for us is one our relationship and our network in Dallas to help get it started. And then obviously the people we've been able to add at such a young infancy of a company have given us the credibility and the numbers are reflecting that. Chris: Gotcha. So before I don't want to wrap this up without talking a little bit just about you and your leadership style, let's talk. You know, how would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's evolved over time based on the scars and other lessons learned? Jerry: You know you work at a law firm, so you know running a law firm is you got a lot of smart people, a lot of egos, a lot of staff, a lot of overhead, and so I learned a lot about you know the operational side of a business in that seat. And then I think my ownership style has probably changed completely since I left the law firm. I'm a lot more interested in the well-being of my employees, a lot more sensitive to the culture. I think. When you talk about people coming to work and going home, in my mindset now I want that to be a great experience. I kind of use the word experience a lot in the last couple of years for some reason, and I think it's just. My evolution is like everything in our lives is an experience and you can make it a good one or you can make it a bad one, and so I think my leadership style is I want every experience to be a good one. At the best I can make it. Obviously you're going to have your headaches and your issues pop up, but we have the music on in our offices every day. We have happy hours on Thursdays. We built bars in both of our offices in Dallas and Frisco, and then we're putting one in our location in Austin so that we can have happy hours with our agents and our clients and our prospects. We hold a lot of events and I think our interaction with the community and the philanthropic stuff that we're doing is really cool. So I think where I've gotten is you know I'm 54 now and you know I started that law firm at 28 and I had a whole different picture in my mind at 28, right Till 35, of what life was going to be for me, and now I'm kind of trying to enjoy it a lot more. Chris: I love that man. Happy for you. You know clearly you're on the right track and couldn't agree more about how important culture is to any company. And I think I've said similar to you. I think life is about experiences. I think they're only really down to learning experiences good experiences and learning experiences as though, rather than bad, just learn from them and don't repeat them. Jerry: Yeah exactly right. Chris: So let's turn a little bit on the personal side of things and not as serious. What was your first job? Jerry: First job, I was a clerk in a law firm. Chris: Okay. Jerry: I was working in law school. Okay, my first job in high school. Like most of us, I grew up in Missouri in a small town. I had a yard. You know service with my best friend and we had our lawn mowers in the back of his truck and we mowed yards. So that was probably my first experience as a having a job. There you go, and first is an entrepreneur was leaving a 250 person firm to start a law firm with two other guys and being 28 years old and that was pretty exciting. We had metal chairs and you know fold up conference room table and laid out of the movie. Chris: Love it. Well, I can relate to the a little bit to that, but definitely relate to the mowing yards. That's what buddy of mine and I did in high school. So you know good money then I guess. Okay, personal preference, tex-mex or barbecue? Well, that's a tough one Probably barbecue. All right. And if you could, take a 30 day sabbatical. Where would you go? What would you do? Jerry: You know, this is my two sons who are a senior and sophomore at University of Texas right now. They called a year ago about this time and said, dad, we're going to go to Japan. And I was like, okay, and they got on a plane, just the two of them went to Japan for three weeks and after hearing that I kind of want to do that. Chris: How cool is that. The two of us went and did it on their own. Jerry: They did it on their own, traveled around on trains and backpack and love it. They're experienced when they told the stories and went through the pictures. I mean it's just a really cool culture. I'd like to go experience that. Chris: Okay, jerry, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on. It's hard to believe that you know I don't. I might add the numbers we met at SMU and, as undergraduates, went to law school together, so we had a lot of years together. So it's great to see where you are today and what you're doing. So proud of you. Jerry: Man. I appreciate that. And the same back at you. I followed you your whole career and super, super proud of you. What kind of legal person you are and lawyer and leader and everything you're about. So appreciate having me on and proud of you too, my man. Chris: All right, we'll do it again. We'll find a reason to do it again sometime soon. Awesome Sounds good. Special Guest: Jerry Mooty.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, we sit down with Jerry Mooty, the CEO and Principal of @properties, Christie's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry takes us through his remarkable journey from managing partner at a law firm to heading a major real estate brokerage. He shares how resilience and adaptability allowed him to steer his business through the 2008 financial crisis and leverage opportunities arising from the pandemic. Jerry also provides insights into growing his firm through innovative hiring strategies and technological platforms that streamline agents' work. We explore lessons learned around overcoming adversity, strategic partnerships, and balancing operations with culture. His story offers a candid look inside one industry titan's challenges and triumphs in managing debt, acquisitions, and new ventures in sports and entertainment. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jerry Mooty shares his transition from being a managing partner at a law firm to creating and growing a real estate brokerage, including the challenges faced during the 2008 financial crisis and opportunities leveraged during the COVID-19 pandemic. We discuss Jerry's innovative business model that hires agent-attorneys and how it differentiates his brokerage in a competitive real estate market. The episode covers the technological advances at @properties, such as the Platform, which incorporates AI and a suite of tools to increase agent productivity. Jerry reflects on managing $60 million in personally guaranteed debt and the strategy behind transitioning to a debt-free business structure. Strategic partnerships and the process of acquisitions, especially in the technology sector, are explored along with Jerry's experience in due diligence and venture capital dynamics. Jerry discusses the significance of cultivating a company culture focused on employee well-being and the shift in his leadership style from operations to creating an enjoyable work environment. We touch on the importance of friendships in Jerry's professional journey and how they've influenced his career decisions and leadership approach. Challenges facing traditional real estate agencies like Remax are considered, with a focus on adapting to technological advancements and market changes. Jerry provides insights into his personal preferences, revealing his fondness for barbecue over tex-mex, adding a personal element to the conversation. The conversation highlights Jerry's efforts in expanding his business, including the recent launch of a sports and entertainment division and developer services to cater to specific client needs in the real estate market. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About @properties,Christie's International Real Estate GUESTS Jerry MootyAbout Jerry TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Jerry Mooty, ceo and principal of App Properties, christy's International Real Estate in Dallas and Austin. Jerry, by anyone's definition, is a serial entrepreneur, having started a law firm, credit card processing company, real estate development company and now a real estate brokerage firm. And Jerry tells aspiring entrepreneurs expect the unexpected. Jerry, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on and welcome you to building Texas business. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me. Good to see you too. It's been a while. Let's just start. You know you've done a number of things and we'll get into some of that, but currently, what's the business that you've started and you're currently today? Jerry: So Jerry Mooty from Dallas have a business now in the residential real estate brokerage industry. So I compete with Compass and some big national brands that most of the listeners will know about. Chris: And that company's called App Properties right. Jerry: Yes, sir, it's called App Properties Christy's International Real Estate. So we kind of have a working on that. Chris: And I know you're kind of got the Dallas area covered, but I think you've also recently expanded into Austin. Jerry: Yeah, so we started in Dallas proper with our headquarters, and then we opened a second office in Frisco, texas, and then we just recently, in the fall of 2023, opened up Austin, texas. Chris: So you know, as a recovering attorney, what was it that inspired you to get into the residential brokerage real estate business? Jerry: So, interesting enough, you kind of know my history, but I founded a law firm when I was 28 and I grew that into about 60 lawyers in four cities. As the managing partner, I started doing a lot of deals for the partners as opposed to practicing law, and I went down several paths. I had a litigation support company that I founded and grew that for the partners and then, you know, ironically got into a real estate development a little startup where I had a home building division building spec homes and I had a commercial division where I was doing some commercial projects. Raw land development had a resort under contract in Bernie, but, like a lot of people in real estate, 2009, 2010 came and that was the end of my glory days in real estate. All right. Chris: So then, what led you to? You know, get involved with app properties and then take this down, go down this rabbit trail. Jerry: Sure. So in 2012, I sold my interest in the law firm back to the partnerships. I didn't want to go back to practicing full time and then did quite a few different entrepreneurial things from about 2013 to about 2019. Any you know, I had a credit card processing company, backed by the Jones family, called Blue Star Payments that merged in with a tech company and we rebranded Blue Star Sports. We were backed by some pretty large VC firms Bain Capital and GenStar partners and Providence Equity and then obviously, the Jones family. So we acquired about 27 companies in about three years and then we sold that company in 2017. Then I was kind of looking for the next thing and I became the chief business and legal officer for a Silicon Valley tech company for a couple of years. They were in a big money raise and it wasn't going so well and I was deferring comp. So I started looking at what I was going to do next. One of the people in my network is a ex litigation real estate litigator. She had gone on and got married, had kids, got a real estate license and had a brokerage here in Dallas and her model was she was going and convincing unhappy lawyers to get the real estate license. So she had about 10 agents slash attorneys as her brokerage and she approached me to come in and run her brokerage for kind of like I did the law firm. So that piqued my interest enough so we went down that path. Sadly we didn't get to execute our documentation because they ended up having a divorce situation. And then two weeks later COVID hits and so I'm waiting to take my real estate license and not sure what I'm going to do after that. Come out of the first 90 days of COVID, the market's red hot, so I hang my license, I start doing deals for my network friends and start marketing myself as an agent. All the meanwhile I'm looking for something to buy or to own or start, and so that led me through developer relationship here in Dallas to the ownership group of at properties out of Chicago. They made that introduction, flew up and met with them and really fell in love with not only the brand and the culture but also the technology that they had built. Chris: Amazing story. There's a lot to dive into there. I may definitely want to go back some, but let's stay with that properties for now. And yeah, so you that's a. It's born out of COVID, I guess. Tell us, though you know, because I know just from you, know keeping up with you and then reading on the website you've experienced some like amazing growth in the last, I guess, three and a half years. Let's talk a little bit about that. And in talking about what you've done that you think has helped accelerate it, let's talk also about the maybe the pains with growing so fast. Jerry: Sure. So as I was looking to own something and this opportunity came up, I negotiated to purchase, you know, the North Texas territory. But I wasn't really prepared to launch because it was just me and I hadn't done a whole lot of recruiting. But I had some real estate deals in the pipeline that I needed to leave the current brokerage I was at before I papered those up. So I ended up launching at properties by myself just one agent, and got temporary space and, you know, true entrepreneurial spirit started recruiting, putting in my support team, landed a pretty big compass team right out of the gate and that kind of helped accelerate the visibility. And so the first, you know, six months we grew to 10 agents by Christmas. So it wasn't, we weren't a big brokerage, but we were putting things in place. By the next year we were about just under 40 agents. So we had a really good, successful year and, you know, quadrupling our size and then last year 2023, we doubled again to about 80 agents in Dallas. So we've been kind of there's been some faster growth brokerages, but we're very we're considered more luxurious. Our agents are more high producing agents and they take a little longer to transfer from one brokerage to another based on their pipeline and their restrictions. So now that we're three and a half years into this and Austin's really kind of been a little bit of a catalyst in the last six months because initially that territory wasn't available there was a Christie's affiliate there my corporate partner asked me if I wanted Austin about a year and a half ago. I said yes and so I started putting the play pieces in place and we launched that in September. We've added quite a few agents in the first 120 days over 70 something agents there. So all in we got about a hundred agents in Dallas, about 70 in Austin. So that's the good side of the business. The headaches, as you know as an entrepreneur, are several and many. Too many to list, but we'll cover a few. My most recent success story is I just hired a controller after three and a half years. So I've been doing the books, reporting to corporate, paying the royalties, paying the checks, paying the agents. So those are the things. As an entrepreneur, you really you put your blood, sweat and tears into these businesses and then you have to get to a certain level, to where you could start to relieve yourself of some of these pains. Chris: Yeah, that's so true, jerry. A lot of the people that I've had on before say exactly that that it's one when you're starting out, you're not big enough to outsource it or to hire for it, so you got to do it. But then it's getting to that point when you even when you are big enough and can afford it the level of trust and hiring the right person to hand off those key aspects of the business, so it frees you up to do the things as an entrepreneur or the visionary you want to be doing. So let's talk about that. What was it that you think helps get to a level of trust and comfort that it's time to hand off and it's the right person to hand off to? Jerry: Yeah, I think, based on my background of being an entrepreneur, you make a lot of friends and you kind of know. You learn the hard way. You hire the wrong person a few times and then, as you get older and more seasoned, you kind of know what to look for. In this instance, with that properties, I hired somebody I'd known for 35 years to come in and be my director of agents. I've known her since the SMU days, so the trust was already built in and then you're just very selective as you add the pieces to the puzzle to get those right people in place. So in half years we've let one or two people go, but we've been pretty successful in hitting the mark. Chris: That's great. So 70 agents or so you said. Have you started to implement any kind of processes that help with the integration process as you bring in these new people, so they understand kind of what the expectations are, what the benefits are for making the move? I mean, so where are you and what's the process you've gone through to kind of make that more institutionalized? Jerry: So the background for at properties and the corporate support we have is pretty important in how we've gotten here. They're a 25 year brokerage. They're the eighth largest in the country before acquiring the Christie's affiliate network, so they kind of had the processes in place. So it's buying. Whenever you buy a franchise and you wanna go down this path, you kind of get a little bit of assistance from and some help along the way on someone else putting the right pieces in place. I think what we've done a great job is integrate and implement those things that they've brought to the table, which I think revolves around a lot of our culture. You know, I think culture is so important in any business you have and so it's just we have fun things called at love, local events that came from corporate. So we'll pick a merchant somewhere in our geographical area, we'll partner with them, we'll send out a marketing campaign. Let's say it's a coffee shop and then whoever shows up at that coffee shop, our agents are there and we're running a tap for a coffee or a Danish in the morning. So that's kind of the community outreach piece. We use the word love strategically in all our marketing. So we say bringing the love to Dallas, bringing the love to Frisco and those types of things. So you know, recruiting is probably once you get the, once you get your overhead stabilized and your office space and those types of things. This is a business about relationships and recruiting. So I would say our two most important people outside of myself are our head of recruiting out of Frisco, head of recruiting out of the Dallas office, and so those have been very good hires. Chris: You know most, I think most businesses. It's hard to say they're not people, businesses or relationship, but certainly you know in the business you're in, where you're so customer facing right, you need good people that can go out and attract good customers, provide good service. But I have to imagine the last 18 months or so in residential real estate hasn't been the easiest. So can you talk a little bit about what you've done to help continue, promote one, promote the culture, to keep people positive and energized while managing through what has to have been a challenging time? Jerry: Yeah, absolutely so. Obviously we're all aware of how hot the market got, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, during COVID and post COVID. What that did in our industry is everybody wanted a real estate license because they saw all these transactions happen. So we had an influx of agents that came in that are young, inexperienced, but were here to make some money. And then, when the market turns, you kind of have the reverse effect. Those people were all eat what you kill, or 10, 9, 9 commissioned agents. They got to figure out how to pay the bills, and so we've had a pretty big exodus. Probably 15 to 20% of our agents across the nation have left the industry, and so that's been good for the sense of the people staying in it because you got less competition. But the ones that stayed in it most of them, have been through some of these ebbs and flows of the market, and so they kind of know how to prepare. And most of that revolves around when your transaction desk is slower, what are you ramping up to do? Are you ramping up your marketing, your postcard, social media content, are you revamping your website? And so those are all things that we, which the agents that work for us and part of our big, strong sales pitch based on the technology that we have. Chris: Got you Speaking of that on the marketing side, you know, are you seeing? I guess, one area or the other as far as marketing strategy work better, get more visibility or more return on investment. You see so much on social media, so it seems natural that that would be one, but I don't know if that's the leading one based on your experience or not. Jerry: Yeah, I think in pretty much every industry has been affected by the internet and no industry more so than real estate. I would say probably 10 years ago you saw a lot of print ads. You saw a lot of ads and you know business journals and those types of things trying to move property. But now it's really a digital world. We're using social media, we're using tools called AdWords, which is a retargeting tool to where it's essentially like if you went and looked at a pair of shoes at Nordstroms and then you left Nordstroms, those shoes are following you around. So we have the ability to target, geo track and geo target potential prospects and clients through our technology. Obviously, websites are important. Your collaboration tools that you're preparing a search for a prospect, like they're looking in this area for a certain price point. We have the ability to set those searches up and work with a prospect or a client on finding the home, ironically in the last price. I don't know when this started, but in the last year or so, almost 85% of buyers find the home they want before they hire an agent, or at least they zero it down based on how much information is on the internet. And so, really, as an agent, what you're trying to do is bring your expertise not only to get that transaction under contract, but then most of the work happens one second transactions under contract all the way through closing. Chris: Right, that is an amazing statistic 85%, but you're right. I mean, when everyone goes to the internet first, I think, to research or validate or do something. So it makes sense to me, but it's a big number. Sounds like you know here you use your work, technology and innovation and stuff quite a bit already since we started the interview. Some of this may have come from your franchise or some may have come from some things You're doing, but what are some of the things you believe are innovative in the way that you're operating the brokerage and helping your agents be successful? Jerry: Sure. So I think when you start understanding what different brokerages bring to the table in regards to support for their agent portfolio. Obviously marketing is a big one because they're pushing all the stuff out that we're talking about, but also the day-to-day operation of an agent is pretty important. Most brokerages large brokerages like Coldwell, banker, some of your biggest national brands are very antiquated when it comes to technology support. I would say there's two brokerages at the forefront. I'd say Compass is in second place and I think App Properties is in first place. And I say that because we've been building a technology stack called Platform, or our franchise or has, since 2003 and basically an agent logs in and does everything they need to do as an agent in one technology. When I interview agents and I show them the technology, they're blown away because they're in four or five, six different technologies throughout the day trying to get their social media posted or created, their transactions done over here, their docuSigns another technology they have to use, and we have everything in one place, and so that's been a real big selling point for us when we're recruiting these agents. Chris: Yeah, I mean anything to make your employees or, in your case, I guess, your contractor's life easier. Have you started to look into, or is this already incorporating any kind of versions of AI? Jerry: AI is already integrated. Nowadays, agents are always doing, as an easy example, they're doing descriptions of the properties. So now you can lean on AI to help you describe a $5 million house with five bedrooms, six baths by describing it into AI, and then it'll help you create that luxury description. So there's things like that. Obviously, our CRM has a lot of AI tied to it and so, yeah, that's the way of the future and it's getting more and more integrated and implemented into all our tools. Very nice, very nice yeah. Chris: All right. So I want to make you kind of reflect back. So yeah, this about, by your own description, not the first time you kind of started a new venture or stepped outside your comfort zone. So when you think about what you did I guess leaving, you know, maybe leaving the law firm or even some of the ventures you started while you were there, but going to credit card processing et cetera where are some of the lessons you learn through those ventures that you think prepared you for taking the step you did without properties and the steps you're taking now to grow so rapidly? Jerry: Yeah, I think if you're a serial entrepreneur like myself, I think the one thing you learn each time that you have an idea or you go down the path of starting something is you think you're going to get to the finish line a lot easier. It's your idea and you think you're going to do that. And I think probably in every instance including the law firm, including the credit card processing is one lesson is it just takes a lot to probably 10 times, 100 times more man hours and work and you got hurdles. That you're not expecting. But I think that's part of the reward too is why I'm built the way I am. You enjoy that when an obstacle comes and you get your way around it or over it. But I think you know frankly, it's probably what every entrepreneur says it's never as easy as you think it is. There's no get rich. You know we talked about most of what we do as lawyers and what I'm doing is a people game. You know you're hiring people and people disappoint, you know, and you're having to find different people sometimes, and so the lesson is just pride and expect the unexpected and you'll be okay and be able to sleep at night. Chris: I like that. Well, think about, is there a kind of a challenge or a failure setback that you can point to over the last, you know, 15 years, 20 years, whatever that you feel is maybe in some ways either a defining moment for you or one of the bigger learning moments that you got? You kind of got hit with a little headwind but you overcame it and because of that it's kind of helped propel you either in your own personal journey as a leader or, you know, in things you learned as an entrepreneur. Jerry: Yeah, I'd say you know, probably the biggest lesson learned of all time was me starting a real estate development company with a home builder and a commercial partner and, you know, diving into that with not a whole lot of experience, and so the challenge was obviously, in real estate, you're hoping to build something and sell it, and so the big challenges is if you build it and you borrow a bunch of money and you don't sell it. And so in 0809, 2010 is probably should have been my premier happiest days of my life. I'm on a law firm, I'm making some good you know coin on the law firm side, but I'm literally getting dragged through the mud financially on the real estate piece, and it's probably one of the reasons it's taken me 10 years to get back into it on the brokerage side, because I literally came out of that was some financial PSD. You know just could not sleep, you know got I mean health issues, depression, pretty much everything you can experience as an entrepreneur and so you figure out a lot about yourself when you're going through something like that, and you know you either stay in bed and talk about it or you pull up your socks and get out and try it again. Chris: That internal fortitude, you know I think any entrepreneurs got to have that or it's just not going to happen. I appreciate you sharing that. Were there some things that you did? You know that you know other than just I mean pure gutted out. You know, to help you kind of get through that. You know, leaning on family friends, I don't know. I mean I have to believe we've got some listeners and other people out there that you're going through the same thing. Jerry: Sure, I think where I lucked out was, you know, just to be frank, I was on about $60 million and personally guaranteed debt that was worth probably about 30 by the time I was trying to get out of it. So there wasn't going to be any family help. It was. It was hey with you, you know, in a loving way, of course. But when you dig a hole like that, you just got to figure out the best way out. And for me, where I benefited was I had a law degree and I was a lawyer and creditors could not touch the ownership interest in my law firm because it was tied to my license. So, through bankruptcy lawyers and all that stuff, I got educated on that and gave me the strategy to get through that situation and come out on the other end, which was one of the reasons I sold the interest of the law firm back to the partners, because that allowed me to have a little bit of a stream of income there in 2012, 13 and 14, while I got the credit card processing company going and getting these other things going. So there was, if there was, a silver lining, it was that fact, but it was still still pretty embarrassing financially and pretty embarrassing as a professional to really go through that over a three or four year period. Chris: You got to be hard but, like I said, I mean now that you've come through it, you know you can certainly appreciate the opportunities you have today and know that. You know I certainly probably learned some lessons of what to not do, going forward right. Jerry: Absolutely, I would say. The one lesson you learn in that scenario is you become a lot more frugal with your financial decisions and you know, especially in the banking industry, like one thing I'm proud of with that properties is we've never bought a bar to dollar. We got zero debt, and so those that's a probably a direct result of what I went through, you know, 15 years ago was I don't want to do another business where I got a bunch of debt and I'm trying to get that off and make money to live off of. Chris: That's great. So you mentioned earlier I think it was a credit card processing BlueStar, where you had some dealings with Bain Capital, and obviously you're dealing with a franchise or in this current business. So let's talk a little bit about maybe what you've learned through that. I kind of relate or maybe call those you know investors, partners, strategic partners. What have you learned as kind of some of the best ways to deal with them so you keep that relationship strong and healthy? And maybe it's something you know that happened that you're like I did this or they did. You know something that happened that soured the relationship, one they got to help our clients here at the firm you know, you know find themselves in those situations all the time, and so I'm curious you know what you know, what lessons you've learned through that process? Jerry: Yeah, so I would say getting involved in. And so when we had the credit card processing company, it was pretty a pretty simple model. We were going out and you know recruiting or or you know we're trying to sell merchants, you know restaurants Anybody who ran a credit card was it was a prospective client approached by a group who had an idea of buying up these technology companies in the youth sports space. So like, if you sign your kid up for soccer, you're there's usually a form and at the end of that form, whether it be the YMCA or anywhere else, you're paying a fee for your child to play that on that soccer team. So the model we had was take the credit card processing that we had built our own API and those types of things and bake it into a technology and go buy these companies. And interestingly, it was about how do you flip the model from a EBITDA and a multiple perspective. So these tech companies that weren't that large of companies because they were kind of geographically located, running different types of youth sports camps or whatnot, they weren't sophisticated enough and they were usually outsourcing their credit card processing to stripe or squares or something like that. So we would acquire these companies and bake in our own processing and from an ownership perspective, then that would change the multiple for maybe two times to 12 times because you have that reoccurring revenue stream coming into your business model. I literally probably learned more over that. First, 12 to 20 per month as we were acquiring these companies, doing due diligence on them, and I was the chief legal officer of the company, so I was in charge of all the due diligence. So we acquired 20 something companies and I bet I did due diligence on about 300 over two years. But it was really cool because I got to see what investors and power players in the venture capital market, how they looked at things and it's there's not a lot of emotion, it's numbers on paper and it's how do we make, how do we do this to this group of businesses, and then how do we sell it and make money. All about the return on investment, right. Chris: Exactly so. It's a. Jerry: It's very cutthroat which some businesses are, some aren't, but it was a great learning experience. I'd like to say I probably learned more in that two to three years Dealing with those big VC firms and listening to those meetings and kind of running point on due diligence than I probably learned in any other aspect of my life. Now, that's so, but that's so. Chris: Let's turn it back a little bit to app properties specifically. I know you've recently launched a new sports and entertainment division Tell us about that. What's going on behind that and what are you trying to accomplish so in the real estate brokerage? Jerry: world. There's different ways to market yourself right, and a lot of that boils down to your experience of your agent portfolio, and so some real estate brokerages are residential, some may just be commercial, but on our side we have, we've accumulated some agents that allowed us to create these divisions because of their experience levels. So land and ranch is one division, and then sports and entertainment is another division, and basically there's some criteria that we've put in place before an agent can say they're part of that team or that division dealing with professional athletes or celebrities on a number of occasions, some of the qualifications, but essentially, when somebody's moving like a professional athlete or a celebrity, there's a lot of sensitivity to that, or there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot more moving pieces, and so that specific division has agents who are, you know, experts in helping that transaction or that client Get from point A to B and solve a lot of problems along the way how to move their cars, how to move their kids into new schools, you know everything that comes along with kind of that type of transaction, as opposed to someone just buying a house and selling a house. So are we going to see? Chris: Super Bowl ads anytime soon, if I can at homecom I could afford it. Jerry: No, that's the goal is. We're really good because of how the clients affiliate network has come into play for us. I don't know if we mentioned this before the call or on the call, but you know our corporate partner ended up buying the Christie's affiliate network, which is a network of independently owned brokerages around the world. I think we have 900 offices in 54 countries, about 35,000 agents, and the reason Christie's the auction house, christie's the family who's owned that brand and that company for two hundred years. They sold the app properties because of the technology and we've been for two years bringing a worldwide global powerhouse network together into the technology to share referrals and data and information, and so that's been one of the one of the real keys to some credibility for us. Very cool. Chris: I think you just launched something else, maybe in the last week. Developer services Tell us about that. Jerry: So so again, we all know there's developers out here but we're not sure there's developers out here building multifamily building, you know, developing neighborhoods, multi-use, and so for a brokerage our size to have the ability to provide those services was kind of hard. So we ended up meeting a group of people out of Austin who came from Storybill and for those listeners who've heard about Storybill, that's a multi-billion dollar developer who went, ran out of money last summer. But we ended up negotiating their entire creative team to come over to Christie, our Christie's, and create this development services division. So starting with the chief marketing officer all the way down to their website development team, their on-site sales, so we've got a team of about 12 of superstars and they really fell in love with the Christie's brand to kind of move from Storybill into our umbrella, to kind of push those services out. So that'll be a huge win for us. Chris: So, as you sit there running all this, what is it that kind of triggers for you that this is an opportunity that makes sense, because not everybody can see that, and so there are things you're looking for. How do you go about making that decision and taking on the risk? Jerry: Yeah, so risk is a little less scary in our business because most everybody who works for our brokerage is a 1099 contractor. So we really have a pretty lean machine when it comes to we're running this right now with about seven full-time employees, three offices, so you got overhead from an office space perspective, but really you're kind of it's kind of a lean business model, which is one of the things that attracted me to it. And then obviously you have to have the people to be able to promote these different levels of services. So I think the thing that's been lucky for us is one our relationship and our network in Dallas to help get it started. And then obviously the people we've been able to add at such a young infancy of a company have given us the credibility and the numbers are reflecting that. Chris: Gotcha. So before I don't want to wrap this up without talking a little bit just about you and your leadership style, let's talk. You know, how would you describe your leadership style? How do you think that's evolved over time based on the scars and other lessons learned? Jerry: You know you work at a law firm, so you know running a law firm is you got a lot of smart people, a lot of egos, a lot of staff, a lot of overhead, and so I learned a lot about you know the operational side of a business in that seat. And then I think my ownership style has probably changed completely since I left the law firm. I'm a lot more interested in the well-being of my employees, a lot more sensitive to the culture. I think. When you talk about people coming to work and going home, in my mindset now I want that to be a great experience. I kind of use the word experience a lot in the last couple of years for some reason, and I think it's just. My evolution is like everything in our lives is an experience and you can make it a good one or you can make it a bad one, and so I think my leadership style is I want every experience to be a good one. At the best I can make it. Obviously you're going to have your headaches and your issues pop up, but we have the music on in our offices every day. We have happy hours on Thursdays. We built bars in both of our offices in Dallas and Frisco, and then we're putting one in our location in Austin so that we can have happy hours with our agents and our clients and our prospects. We hold a lot of events and I think our interaction with the community and the philanthropic stuff that we're doing is really cool. So I think where I've gotten is you know I'm 54 now and you know I started that law firm at 28 and I had a whole different picture in my mind at 28, right Till 35, of what life was going to be for me, and now I'm kind of trying to enjoy it a lot more. Chris: I love that man. Happy for you. You know clearly you're on the right track and couldn't agree more about how important culture is to any company. And I think I've said similar to you. I think life is about experiences. I think they're only really down to learning experiences good experiences and learning experiences as though, rather than bad, just learn from them and don't repeat them. Jerry: Yeah exactly right. Chris: So let's turn a little bit on the personal side of things and not as serious. What was your first job? Jerry: First job, I was a clerk in a law firm. Chris: Okay. Jerry: I was working in law school. Okay, my first job in high school. Like most of us, I grew up in Missouri in a small town. I had a yard. You know service with my best friend and we had our lawn mowers in the back of his truck and we mowed yards. So that was probably my first experience as a having a job. There you go, and first is an entrepreneur was leaving a 250 person firm to start a law firm with two other guys and being 28 years old and that was pretty exciting. We had metal chairs and you know fold up conference room table and laid out of the movie. Chris: Love it. Well, I can relate to the a little bit to that, but definitely relate to the mowing yards. That's what buddy of mine and I did in high school. So you know good money then I guess. Okay, personal preference, tex-mex or barbecue? Well, that's a tough one Probably barbecue. All right. And if you could, take a 30 day sabbatical. Where would you go? What would you do? Jerry: You know, this is my two sons who are a senior and sophomore at University of Texas right now. They called a year ago about this time and said, dad, we're going to go to Japan. And I was like, okay, and they got on a plane, just the two of them went to Japan for three weeks and after hearing that I kind of want to do that. Chris: How cool is that. The two of us went and did it on their own. Jerry: They did it on their own, traveled around on trains and backpack and love it. They're experienced when they told the stories and went through the pictures. I mean it's just a really cool culture. I'd like to go experience that. Chris: Okay, jerry, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on. It's hard to believe that you know I don't. I might add the numbers we met at SMU and, as undergraduates, went to law school together, so we had a lot of years together. So it's great to see where you are today and what you're doing. So proud of you. Jerry: Man. I appreciate that. And the same back at you. I followed you your whole career and super, super proud of you. What kind of legal person you are and lawyer and leader and everything you're about. So appreciate having me on and proud of you too, my man. Chris: All right, we'll do it again. We'll find a reason to do it again sometime soon. Awesome Sounds good. Special Guest: Jerry Mooty.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, Mike Vellano joins us to share the things he has learned from building his company, Vortex. As the CEO who has steered Vortex's innovative growth, Mike offers a look inside deal-making - including acquiring their significant European branch. Beyond mechanics, it's a celebration of relationships that drive success. We explore personal connections too - from Mike's early job to his passion for Tex-Mex. Plans for an Italian sabbatical link work ambitions with heritage. Mike's gratitude for support systems and understanding of sacrifice offers a holistic view of leading an expanding company. Join us for stories of commitment, strategy and groundedness through change. Mike's experience navigating Vortex's eventful voyage provides actionable insights for any enterprise. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Mike shares his journey of strategic acquisitions and company growth, emphasizing the significance of people, process, and technology in building a successful enterprise. We explore the legacy of Mike's family in the water infrastructure industry and how this history has influenced his professional path and the founding of Vortex Companies. Chris discusses the challenges and motivations behind starting Vortex in 2015, drawing parallels with the entrepreneurial spirit exemplified by figures like Kobe Bryant. Mike reflects on the transformation from a hands-on CEO to a leader who empowers his team and how he leverages team strengths through delegation. We touch on the importance of maintaining a company's core values, with a focus on the "win as a team" philosophy and the role it plays in Vortex's culture. Mike provides insights on the integration process of new companies and people into Vortex's culture, emphasizing the value of internal sourcing for successful expansion. We discuss the recent acquisition of a foundational manufacturing company and the strategic considerations behind taking calculated risks in business. Mike expresses his personal love for Tex-Mex cuisine and his anticipation for a sabbatical in Italy, highlighting the balance between professional aspirations and personal heritage. Chris and Mike explore the intuitive and emotional aspects of business negotiations and the importance of emotional intelligence in steering deals to success. Mike details the complex nature of legal matters in international deals and the reliance on expert legal counsel to navigate antitrust issues and other legal challenges. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Vortex Companies GUESTS Mike VellanoAbout Mike TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Mike Vellano, founder and CEO of Vortex companies. Mike and his team have built Vortex through a series of strategic acquisitions since 2015, 17 in total by focusing on people, process and technology. Mike, I want to welcome you to building Texas business. Thanks for taking the time to join me. Mike: You got it, man. Great to be here. Chris: Yeah, let's kind of just dive right in. You're the CEO of Vortex companies. Let's start by just telling the audience you know what that company is and what it's known for. Mike: Vortex is a comprehensive and full portfolio of products and services that serve to repair wastewater and storm water assets, pipes, structures, anything that you, anything that lives in a municipal or a commercial industrial application, and we do it all non-intrusively and through what's called trenchless technology Okay yeah. So find a pipe without excavating. Chris: Okay. Mike: So we get to save the environment a little bit every day. Chris: That's good, I like that. So tell us like this how did you find your way into this industry? Mike: So I'm a, my background, I got a. I have a picture of my great grandfather, paul Villano, laying a water main. In 1925, Italian immigrant came to this country installing a water main and I mean just connected to New York. My family actually fixed that same water main years later. I'm not a finance guy or I don't have an MBA. I'm a. I founded Vortex and I've spent my entire career in this industry, other than you know, cooking in a restaurant and college or bagging a few groceries. I've been married to this trade and and moving that forward, my family was in. My family had a pipe supply business and a and it was in trench shoring and open excavation. My father was one of the pioneers in this industry. In 1994, brought a technology here with my family. The business was actually called trenchless technology and and I left the family business to go to go at a quick stop at a trenchless services business. And then you know the vision to get this thing going. Chris: Wow, so so in. I guess there's a lot of ways. It's kind of a continuation of the family business. Mike: Yeah, I mean, if you look at, my grandfather was using an old steam cable machine to lay a water main to. You know my family delivering and supplying, you know, frames and covers and fire hydrants One of the first water work suppliers in the country to my, my, my father and his brothers and my own goals, who are all entrepreneurs, watching them expand it and bring new technology to, and all of them you know, sort of systematically advancing with the industry, with water infrastructure and buried assets and now vortex is. You know we're an innovative, we're an, we do a lot of R&D and technology development and we and we get to do some really great things with in some pretty, some pretty tough areas. Chris: So it's interesting you mentioned innovation and and R&D. What are some of the things that that you do to kind of instill the innovative side or innovative spirit within the company? Mike: You know, I think, if I think about you know our core values, we have this, our most. Our core values are centered around this, this statement or mantra, called. You know we win big together and then, as we drive down into our culture, we have that. You know we actually have that trademark. It's a big part of what we do. We sign off emails on it and we rally around it if you go into an office, but winning big is thinking big. You know that's a big part of our marketing strategy and you know what we have, the way we think about products that work in infrastructure. You know they don't always come from the lab to the field. They come from the field and they're perfected in a lab and and we have a lot of great people that are that have dedicated their career to this industry, that we've worked with for a long time, and I think everybody at Port Texas is an innovator and I think our culture drives that. Chris: That's great, yeah, so it sounds like you kind of encourage it at all levels, not just some one department that's responsible for things. But are there any things that you do to kind of allow a you know a process for the ideas from the field to bubble up? How do you create that I guess in engagement or pride for people to speak up? Mike: You know, I think having, I think having what what you know Tretches technology is innovative in itself. I mean we're taking liners and pregnant with resin and going through a manhole and we're essentially performing angioplasty in a sewer application. You know we're. When we're coding a large, you know 16 foot diameter culvert with a geopolymer, I mean there's, those solutions don't aren't solved with a material only, it's a system. So it's people, process and technology. I think the way that we innovate and encourage innovation is really, is really through. You know, it can be reactive, it can be proactive. And we started our geopolymer business. We really focused on how the field you know the material led to really, you know, try a ton of innovation and perfection in the field. That was driven by most of our superintendents and most of our group people. So, you know, I think it's, I think it's a combination and it's a, it's chemistry. It's, it's, you know, some of it's organic chemistry, but there is engineering and there is some real science behind it. But there is an art form to what we do. You know there is. You cannot perfect this technology in a closed environment. You need to be able to deal with a lot. You know pipes are pipes of all kinds of construction and diameters, and and condition. Chris: Gotcha, Let me take you back down to the building. You said the beginning. You mentioned that you kind of, you know, broke off and started this. What year was that? Mike: So that would have been 2015. Chris: 15. So you know, that's, you know, the one of the questions I like to ask. You know, guys like you is okay, you had to take, get, I guess, the intestinal fortitude to be ready to kind of take that step, say, okay, I'm actually going to do this on my own. What? How did you know you were ready? What were some of the things looking back that you know, you thought, you know you go, man, that was really tough and had I known it would have been this tough, I may not have done it. Mike: Yeah, I think you know I read it when you're in, when you're in YPO or you're in some of the organizations that are involved. You get some really great case study. And you know there was an article about Kobe Bryant and somebody asked Kobe Bryant how you know how he thought, if he thought he would ever play in the NBA. He's like well, my dad played in the NBA. You know my dad was an entrepreneur, was a CEO. You know I saw that, I saw that spirit and all with all my uncles and my family and my grandfather was in great uncle brought products to this country and innovated waterworks supply and we're one of the first in the country to do something like that. So my risk profile was kind of set out at birth. I mean, I don't, seeing it being around it, seeing your name and the pride of having that on the side of a truck or the side of a building was always something that I wanted to either stay in the business or grow it or, you know, have something that I could, you know, not only make my family proud of but also build on my own and I think, the real working for my family and you know, working for my family, you know we always say we're. You know I would never change that experience. But working around entrepreneurs, and then the stop that I made before I started Vortex, you know, allowed me to get to, you know, the MBA I never wanted you know working around private equity and doing some things that allowed me to recognize, you know, the principles of business that some family businesses don't always fully capture, like HR or fleet management or things that are, or how you know how you manage a P and L and things that are typically, you know, you know, managed at a page in my Italian family, a patriarchal level or you know, however that comes to bear. So I think I always, you know well, my wife, I remember coming home and she had 12, you know Ford envelopes and was like, what are these? And you know I was like, well, we finance some trucks, it's gonna be okay. You know, we had no money in our bank account. So I think some of that stuff is easier for me just because I, you know, back to the like, I had somebody that modeled that risk profile and that ability to say, hey, just go take some chances and you create your own lock and you work. Chris: That's a great story. I mean, it's unique. You're right, cause it sounds like you almost didn't have a choice in it. Right, you were just brought up through from birth to understanding how entrepreneurs work, the risk about it. But yeah, as you were talking, and that has to put a whole another level of pressure on you to say, yeah, this is what I, this is what we do in the Vellano family, I better make sure it works, cause everyone else looking back uncles, grandfathers, and they've all made it work. I better make this work. Mike: That has to be a whole another level of pressure 100%, and I think that's, I think that's, I think that is a driving principle, right, you know people, you can harness pressure and use it, use it effectively. I mean, sometimes I probably run myself a little too hard, but I still am afraid to be late to work. Chris: You know it's just. I love that, yeah, Especially in today's world right that the CEO is afraid to be late and there's that level of kind of accountability that, as a leader, you want to instill in everybody in the organization. Mike: What are some of the? Chris: things you do to kind of to do that to demonstrate that. I mean, obviously it starts with you know your actions, but how do you try to show up as a leader to make sure that those values that you grew up with get infiltrated throughout the organization? Mike: Yeah, I remember going to the first management meeting with my family and and you know we it was you know if you've been around Italians, you, there's always a big dinner. There's always, you know, more appetizers than entrees on the table, good wine, or you know definitely a few cocktails, and you know you sit there and you go and you run and you come in town for a meeting and I remember one of our branch managers. I remember one of our branch managers showing up late and my dad locking the door and just saying you know it's like that, it's two minutes late, it's like, well, we, this meeting started at seven o'clock. Chris: And. Mike: I've done that a couple of times. I'm mellowing out a little bit, but when I first started this business, I mean as a 30 year old guy, you know you're trying to prove a point and you realize that there's better way. You know that's not always the way to do it, but that left a left an impression on me. I think you know there are definitely times where I get overextended and I got to move calls around and I'm not. I want to be, I want to be more, but this is. It's a big job with a lot of responsibility and you got to prioritize differently. But I think you know our core values are you know we are a driven business and I think them seeing drive and our organization, not only by me but our team I mean our team is our team is a very close group, you know. I think, like when we went through our core values, we talked about how teams win. You know families fight, you know, so I don't know he's, I don't. You know we think like a family, but we work like a team, we are a team and I think them knowing that we are going to win as a team, I think that, look, they know that we're all going to get up, that nobody's, that nobody's fallen behind. And I think in a dynamic organization where that's a driven organization and you know they see every time they walk into a vortex office, they see that core value, that we are driven and core values are for all. You know some people. We stand behind ours and I think some of them have become a little cliche, but I think that's how we keep people. I think that's how we, I think that's a model that comes from our entire executive team down to the organization. Chris: Yeah, I would say you know we talk about core values. In my experience, if you identify them right, then their behavioral characteristics for the behavior that you, as the organization, want to see, expect to see and, almost you know, demand to see for those that are going to be successful in your organization. So you talk a lot about I love the win as a team and I thought it was. I love that family's fight, tim's win, that's a good one. I'm going to use that again. But so culture is definitely important to any organization. It sounds like it is. You know, obviously, the years with that. The win is a team mantra. To me, that, then, means that the hiring and onboarding process is critical to making sure you're getting the right people during the interview process as you're bringing them on and building the team. So what are some of the things that you do at Vortex to try to make sure you've got the right processes in place in the interview and integration process to add successful members to the team? Mike: I think that onboarding is we have a great HR person that our onboarding process when we first started was where are we going to grab a steak and or where are we going to where's a fun place to do an interview? And we've created some. We Brooke has really helped us to kind of formalize some things, and our head of shared services that to make that first day you know that first day at Vortex their most exciting day. I mean that's it's got to be. You know whether it's the type of swag they get or their waybook or whatever those things are, and what their introduction is to an organ, to a high performing organization. I mean they got to feel like they're. They got to feel that fire and that encouragement day one. You know when you I think that if you build your team right and you build your people, you know we have we've acquired seven companies now and our executive team has leadership across our. The leadership across our organization has come from those, has come from those transactions and those folks have moved into pretty dynamic roles in the industry and high level leadership roles. So we've brought some of their core values along. But we've also elevated several members of you know an acquisition we did in Maine. We have three people running different parts of the business. Our COO has mentored several you know of our younger project managers and sales people into roles that they're going to be leaders in our business and we have the same role, you know, for me as sort of a sales support role that you know young men that started around 22,. One of those guys is is our is our senior VP of services now and he's been with us for 12 or 14 years through through other places. So I think we focus on you know it is and it's a sink or swim Sometimes. We're, sometimes, you know we do, we do sort of police, our crew and we in our drive gets in the way of really understanding, you know, and wanting everybody to be more than maybe they should be in some cases. But yeah, I think that was a bit of a ramble but hopefully I answered your question. Chris: Oh yeah, you did. I think it's great. So I think in that answer that you hit on a couple of things. I want to follow up on 17 acquisitions in that sense 25. Yeah, that's small to large. Mike: I know that we've got. Chris: Yeah, I know that you recently just closed a new transaction, so it sounds like there's been a lot of growth through acquisition. You know entrepreneurs or people that started a company. I mean, they're faced with right. You know, how do I grow? Do I grow organically? Do I grow by acquisition? Do I do both When's it right? So what are some of the things I guess that you could share from your kind of strategic thinking about? When you felt it was right to make those acquisitions, how did you vet that to go Okay, this is a good fit, knowing, I guess, there's no sure bet. Mike: Yeah, we're acquiring businesses from $1 million to $15 million, $20 million in revenue. So a few of these businesses have been smaller tuck-ins or technologies or somebody would call them an asset deal. So we have, and in all of those we've never hired a banker. We source them internally because we either have a customer or a vendor relationship and we have some, you know, we have some. We have a little bit of a matrix that we use, you know, in the sense of do they have personnel, do they have technologies? Do they support the things that we do? Are there people innovative enough to expand? And, if we can, we add value. We're not going to buy a business that we can't grow organically or turn into something that is truly going to make that business better and make our business better. Sometimes it's technology and sometimes it's, but there is always an organic element to everything that we do. We start, we add crews every day, we implement our technology developments into our own service businesses or into others, and a true differentiator in how we go to market, like how we go to market up until, you know, up until this recent transaction, which is a products company, a subsidiary that I can get into that in a few minutes, but this is the biggest, the largest acquisition we've made and most of our product product's business was developed and grown organically through some smaller, what I would call partnering opportunities with. You know our we're so proud of our business out in Utah. You know we grew we've grown that business, by you know, 20 times from when we acquired it in 2019 with because we had a partner that understood the chemistry, we understood the operation and commercial side and together, you know, great products and a great strategy work. So that's been our that's been a big part of our strategy. And the product side and the services side. We've bought, we've acquired some mature businesses. We just bought a business in the UK that we're really excited about. It's got an excellent market opportunity. It's a service business but they fit our DNA. They're not afraid to do, they're not afraid to go out and work with difficult customers or on difficult projects or take on emergency jobs. You know we live in a municipal world and we really do focus on selling. We go after negotiated work. We don't just go and low bid work like a lot of, like a lot of municipal contractors do or have to do because they don't have the resources or you know, or some of the, I think, some of the talent that we have to go utilize procurement networks or emergency contracts. So it's a steady diet of acquiring to build on or just doing it. Crash roots organic. Chris: Gotcha. So then the next question comes. You do all these acquisitions. Acquisitions sound great and sexy and you go close a deal, but it will only be successful if you are successful in the integration process. You've done 17 of different sizes. It sounds like you've gotten pretty good at the integration process, so I want to talk to you about something about that. It's clearly not happening by accident if you're good at it. So what are some of the tips that you could share about what you all have done there? Processes you've you've developed I'm sure they haven't all been successful. You've learned from some failures, so talk to us about that, tell us kind of you know how that's evolved and vortex for you and your team to make sure you get the integration piece right. Mike: I think we start integrating a deal before it's close and I think that's important and I don't think that's a strategy that can be. I don't know if you can hear that thing. No. I don't know, and I don't know if that's a. I don't think that's a strategy that everyone has a luxury to support. But part of our story is we you know we've never hired as never hiring a banker. We are very familiar with the acquisitions that we're going in to make, both from a personnel perspective, the technologies that they support and how they think about the world. You know we want, we want these acquisitions to be as excited to join vortex as we are to acquire them. The other thing that we don't do is buy 100% of anything. We're typically partnering with a seller that is going to come into the business and continue on and you know we and we do a really good job of I think of, of, you know creating the right level of support. I'm understanding what their skill sets are. At a seller come to me after we bought his company and say you know what? I always wanted to own a business but I never wanted to run it and I'm like, ok, I can see that, but let's put you in a row Like you're. We're here because you were doing something right. Let's figure out what you're, what you're good at, and I think you know our team collectively took a step back and was like this is what he's going to be good at. And he's been and he's one of our best in that role now and still a shareholder and had enough, you know, hasn't had enough. You know really believed in what we're doing and we believed in him as a in this role. And you know, some of a big part of integration is understanding what everyone's thinking and being transparent and saying, hey, you know, you really think of this. We need to get you a better finance person, like, yeah, your finance person can go do this. We were not here to. I think our real focus is finding people and the other thing that we don't do and we buy cash flowing businesses that have good roots and have good people and we don't buy distress businesses. We're not. That's just not who we are and that's understanding what your capabilities are. We don't we want to manage. We want to manage a business, to grow it and build it and make it better. Like I said before, and I think when you really look at, hey, this is we. As you grow up, you know you you'll learn to deal with those, with those situations. We just had a business in Colorado. We kind of took a step back and said, hey, we're breaking even here. This is a distraction. Maybe we can move these assets somewhere else and focus somewhere else, and this is how we can do it in a way that will be more productive for everybody involved. So I think a big part of integration is really understanding our deals and having that luxury by being part of the diligence and really, I think, starting integration almost before we close an acquisition. Chris: Yeah Well, and what I hear you saying is look, we're very thoughtful about and transparent about, the process, and those are two key elements, I think, to anything being successful, so that you're going to have clear communication. It also sounds like you take a little page out to Jim Collins. Good to grade and get the right people on the bus, but in the right seat. Yeah, so your example of I want to always want to be an owner but didn't want to run it. I mean, that's someone that probably should be on the bus, obviously, but he just sure on the right seat for him. Mike: Yeah, I think that you know it's the my father would call it the Holy Trinity. It's sales, operations and finance. But you know, good to grade is that's one of the one of the big takeaways of our best businesses have just really a really great balance across all three of those, all three of those areas. I mean anything R&D, anything project level, any good strategy you have to have. You have to hit all three of those areas. Chris: Yeah for sure. So you talked about a lot of these acquisitions being either vendors or partners that you have interacted with over time, so that, in first to me, you do a really good job at Vortex of creating some really strong relationships with your vendors and your business partners, you know. So let's talk about that a little bit. What are some of the things you do to create in your people, I guess, to foster those strong relationships that sometimes lead to these add-on acquisitions and then become part of the team? Any tricks or things there you really encourage? Mike: You know, like you made the comment about innovation before, I mean, I think everybody, you know we have 800 employees now I think we have, you know, 700 of them want to be investment bankers. I get calls all the time hey, you know someone's supposed to say, hey, you know this, hey, I bet you that guy would be really interesting in this. You know, in this role, or we should look at this company, you know, I think, and some of those have come to fruition and look, you know, when you do that many deals in that time frame which seems like a lot more than it is, but you know, we did four deals in COVID which was crazy, but we all. But you know, I think a big part of that is, yeah, I think a big part of that is like we look at hundreds of deals. I mean we still we can turn. You know we're not going to get into early diligence, like there's some things I can look at with our team and our team is in the higher, you know, the more involved, the more involved we get with a company. You know we might say you know, man, these guys don't even know how to order material, like they're unorganized. You know, I know they want to put like, this is going to be a lot to fix. You know, maybe we can work together and there's been times where we've worked with companies for years three, three, four years talking to them about a deal why we work parallel as a vendor or them as a sub, and then they become an acquisition and I think we both got better together. You know, I think that some of that stuff is, but there's that's also a luxury in our strategy, but that makes our strategy sound. You know, we don't have, we don't have. You know you look at these deals and, hey, if half of them went well with our organic growth which is in the, you know just, you know, high teens to 20s and archaegers in the mid 20s, you know it's, it's, it's a great story. I think that was like as you should be. Chris: So let's talk a little bit. You know more about you and your evolution as a leader. You talked about it a minute ago, just referencing how you're probably a little bit harder, maybe from the lessons you saw from your dad, and you've evolved. Let's dig in a little bit there. I mean, how would you describe your leadership style and how do you think that's changed and evolved? You know, over the year since you started, you know this company and and grown into where it is today. Mike: You know, I think I know what. I know what I'm not, and I know that I have to surround myself with people, that that you know you backfill by weakness, I think. But at the same time, you know our CFO has been my partner for 15 years. You know we've had, we have, people in our team that we've worked with for all of that and even before and even going back 20 years in some cases. You know, I think leadership, I think leadership to me has evolved as I've really understood what I'm truly. You know what I'm really good at, and having enough and sort of having, I think, being intentional and having some humility and being able to say, hey, I'm not. You know, I believe in the one minute manager. I don't need a ton of detail, I just need to know what the issue is, and I've gotten better at really understanding why that detail is important. But, you know, as a leader, I think I think gaining perspective and, you know, and listening, I think YPO has helped me in a lot of ways. You know, being around, I think peer development is something that I never, you know that was not. That's not something. When you grow up in an Italian family in upstate New York. You know, therapy isn't something I don't know. That's something I don't know if I knew the meaning of that word until I was married, but those aren't things you don't. You don't share family business, you don't share problems, you fix problems, and I think that I think in some ways, that's good. Like you know, you, I know I want to run into I think I wanted to run into every birding building until about five years ago, and I've started to realize that there's people on my team that are better at things, that I am and can execute on that. So you know, I think it's a combination of a lot of things, but I do enjoy leading, I do love my team and I, like I love seeing them be successful. Chris: That's good. Now I think it like I said, I think it starts with drive right. You have to have the drive and the want to and a little bit of that risk profile to take the risk and then I think over time you learn maybe humility and empathy and you can let others do some things, backfill where you're not as strong or you want to provide the opportunity. Mike: But yeah, don't get me wrong, the New York Italian does come out. Chris: It's a, it's a, it's real, so Well let's, we'll test that a little bit then on, say, because I like to ask people you know I'm a big believer in I think we learned from failure right and so you know, is there a situation or decision or circumstance you can think of? You know there was a failure right when you got it wrong but you were able to recover, or what you learned from that moving forward that made you better, stronger, you know, leader person, whatever that might be. Mike: I think I, you know, I probably learned from the. You know we always say when we're hiring somebody from a competitor, you know, try to be a good leaver. I think the way I left my family business was probably not. You know it was. It's never perfect. If I could go back, I'd probably. I would probably do that differently. You know there's been technologies that I have died on a hill for and you take a step back and you go. God, why did I think that would work? You know, and I think now I'm having conversations that people had with me 15 years ago where they're going, hey, what do we should buy this company? I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm like that's not the right company for us. And I think there's times where I know I need to explain myself better. But yeah, I think there's been some. We've had. I've had some bad partners that we had to buy out and that I separated with. And you know, when you're going through that, you realize like, hey, this is this guy you know you want to. It's all there fall in your point, in the finger and then, as you get past it, you go you know, I didn't. I perspective in time or time changes perspective, right? So, yeah, I think there's certainly no shortage of things that I failed at. Chris: Gotcha. Well, the other thing I kind of like to ask people as we start to wrap things up is if you think about one or two things you would impart to an aspiring entrepreneur that if you're going to, if you're going to go chase that dream, you know here, here are a thing or two that I think you should keep in mind. Or you know, maybe it's a do this and don't do that type of thing. What would be that from you to kind of that generation, next generation of entrepreneurs, man? Mike: I love move fast and break stuff. Like and you know what, like when I did at first, I felt like we're breaking more. I feel like we've got a point where we move, really we move. It seems like we're moving at the speed of light. But, you know, something like this deal we just closed, which is, you know, sort of a dream deal for us. It's a company that is a founding, founding manufacturer business. It's applied, they're one of the largest producers of liners in our space and have go back to Eric Wood, who's really a, you know, a founding father of our business, who started a company called in situ forum. And you know, we've been working on this deal for two and a half years. I mean, this isn't like 90 days. We got the book and we hired a big New York law firm and our banker, you know, handled all the conversation and we walked in the door. You know, and and here are the changes we're going to make Like we have a foundational, innovative, pioneering you know industry giant that we want to, that we want to take to what we want to take into into its next evolution. And, you know, I think about moving fast. I think move fast breaks, but maybe we're not moving as fast as you think, but at the same time, you know, I do think that's a big you know. Don't be afraid to risk. Focus on what you're good at, because in the minute don't get distracted from that. And and don't be afraid to partner with. You know you're going to have some bad partners, but you'll. You'll if you can find the right ones. That means all the difference. Chris: That's really good. You know the point to that. Similar with employees. Right, you're going to make some bad decisions, whether it's a partner or personnel. But once you realize that move fast, right to cut, because a bad employee can be kind of road culture or a bad partner obviously can run a business down. But once you know that definitely want to move fast. Mike: Yeah, I mean, if it seems like it's, if it seems like you know, bring a raincoat. If it's raining every day, you know we're sitting here having these calls, like this business every month is having the same challenges. Okay, you know, you know, and we've gotten the point of my partners and the key leadership on our team where we look each other in the eye and we go all right, it's, yeah, we need to make a change, and then you know that that leads to some quick and real thoughtful action. So, yeah, I totally agree. Chris: Well, let's appreciate all that. I mean, I think, your success at more taxing your teams I know it takes more than just you in seven acquisitions since 2015 and the growth up to 800 employees is is anything. It's very impressive. So congrats on all that and the new acquisition. I want to ask a few personal questions Just before as we wrap up. What was your first? Mike: job. That was actually my icebreaker at my integration meeting today. My first job was was that Vellano brothers? Chris: Okay, doing what? Mike: I was I think it was counting T bolts because I wasn't old enough to drive a forklift or picking up paper. I remember my father told me hey, I want you to go pick up paper on the. I'll give you a dollar for every piece of paper you pick up on the warehouse floor. And I went out and I had like a grocery bag. I'm like gotta be $1,000. I think you gave me here's five bucks. Go buy a soda. That's right. That was my first job. Chris: Okay, I know you're from New York. You've been in Texas a while, so I ask all my guests do you prefer Tex max or barbecue? Mike: I prefer Tex max. Okay, I like a margarita. I like some good, proper cheats, texas cheese enchiladas and a good margarita. Chris: That's right. So last question is if you could take a 30 day sabbatical, where would you go? What would you do? Italy, no hesitation there. Mike: Anywhere in Italy would be okay. Chris: Very good, very good. Well, that's a popular answer, by the way, but I guess you have family ties that would make it your answer to you. Mike: So some family ties, and I like one that makes both of us. Chris: So, mike, thanks again for taking the time to come on the podcast. Really enjoyed getting to know you and hear your story and wish you nothing but the best of success in 2024. Mike: Awesome. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. Chris: All right, we're going to end the recording there. Special Guest: Mike Vellano.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, I speak with Chuck Leblo, founder of Interact One. Chuck shares his entrepreneurial journey from working in the corporate world, where he was overwhelmed by paperwork, to starting his own business. He offers valuable lessons learned from launching a side business while employed and the critical decisions that helped him succeed. Chuck leaves us with wisdom on building effective teams and maintaining a balanced lifestyle as an entrepreneur. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chuck Leblo, the founder of Interact One, shares his journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship, detailing the reasons behind his transition, such as the overbearing workload in his corporate job. We highlight the importance of having a side gig while starting a business to ensure financial stability. He explains how his unique problem-solving skills were instrumental in the exponential growth of his business from a modest $14,000 to a whopping $140,000 a month. Chuck details his process of tackling a telecom company's issue of short duration calls and building a team of diverse fractionals to aid in problem-solving. He talks about the various challenges he faced as an entrepreneur, including the need to make decisions and pivot the business when necessary. We discuss the impact that COVID-19 had on his business and how he successfully managed to meet the new market needs. He emphasizes the importance of building a successful team of partners and fractionals and shares his experience in helping businesses navigate the remote working world. Chuck shares his experience of managing a large-scale door-to-door team in the deregulated electricity market in Texas and the challenges of the project. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining a healthy work-life balance, sharing his personal experience and strategies. Chuck advises entrepreneurs to treat everyone with respect, earn people's trust, and widen their network to succeed in business. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Chuck LebloAbout Chuck TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you will meet Chuck Leblo, founder of Interact One. Through Interact One, chuck helps business owners solve problems and stresses the importance of building trust with clients as the foundation to successfully growing your company. All right, chuck, I want to thank you for joining me here on Building Texas Business. It's great to have you on the show. Now it's a pleasure to be here. So I know you've got a business or two you're involved with now and maybe others you've had before. But let's just kind of start by you telling the listeners kind of a little bit about yourself and the company that you've got and what it's known for. Chuck: Well, I'm pretty boring story, but so Interact One. Really, we're known for being problem solvers right, and not the type of problem solvers like I need a guy whacked right. Chris: Yeah, we have to stop the recording right now. Chuck: Right, right right, so I can say use the money, you can be my legal counsel, right. So, but now we solve problems for businesses right, and we've been doing that for about 17, 18 years now. I've always been known as a natural problem solver, from the time of a kid all the way through the military, through my corporate days and into my business. So it was a natural, natural evolution for me to just basically start a company that solves problems. Chris: All right. So I guess you mentioned a lot of, I guess, background going back from your childhood and military service. What was the real inspiration for you to kind of becoming an entrepreneur and actually starting a business? Chuck: Well, so 20 years in corporate America I was. I started out as a problem solver on an engineering basis right In telecom and then I got into the business side and I solved business problems which were more to do with like profitability right. And one day I was sitting there and I looked around my office and I just saw stacks in the business 20 years ago, right, everything wasn't digitized then. So stacks and stacks of invoices and contracts and lease cost, routing guides and all of this kind of stuff and I realized I was wasting my life away just doing that, just spending all my time. I was heavily compensated for what I did. Most people would die to have the job, but I was just like I'm not spending time with my family, I'm working 20 hours, sometimes 20 hours a day, right, and I said enough is enough. So I started my. At that point, you know, I had the funds available and I started my own company. Now, unfortunately in retrospect, I started a company doing basically exactly the same thing that I was doing for the telecom companies. I was controlling profitability for helping other telecom companies do that and then helping fortune 1000 clients and government agencies do it. So so that was like my little step in entrepreneurship, because I was really doing the same thing, but just doing it on my own. Then, about five years later six years later is when I really said no, we got to go full tilt into just solving problems. I want to solve them for all types of businesses. So really it was just sitting there looking at all the boxes and just to press the heck out of me. Chris: Yeah, the guy sounds like you're in a situation where you lost your motivation and you had to kind of look introspectively to go. How can I regain the motivation and inspiration I had about what it is I did? Chuck: Yeah. Chris: I wasn't excited about it anymore. Yeah, so. So you step out on your own, whether it was kind of that in that first venture or the five year later, let's talk about that. I mean, what were some of the, the lessons you learned that you were like, oh, I wish I to someone would have told me this. Right, it's like I gotta imagine some things kind of hit you in the face and you had to learn to adapt really quick to now you know, owning your own show. Chuck: Yeah, so the first thing I learned was when I took that first step, right where I owned the company, doing exactly what I was doing before, and what I learned was one it's feast or famine out there, right, as a consultant. It was a. It was feast or famine. The second thing I learned was it's okay to keep your toe in the corporate pond, right. So what I would do is, during those types of famine, I would go get a little gig you know, part time gig help a company out to pay the bills. One of the examples is we did an analysis for state government where we looked at five years of their telecom bills going back. We got them about five million bucks back, okay. So we renegotiated all their contracts, saved them about three million dollars a year going forward. Wow, it took us two years to do that analysis and to start getting that money back and we were paid on a contingency basis. We got a percentage of what we got them back. So two years without money. So if I hadn't known at the time that it's okay, it's okay to be, it's okay to be a part time entrepreneur, and in most cases it's better to get your side gig going before you take a full time side, before you take that side gig full time yeah. Chris: Yeah, that's interesting perspective because I don't know that. I've heard people use that term before, but I think there's some truth to it about that. Okay to be a part time entrepreneur, to kind of get your legs underneath yeah. Chuck: Now most people think that they have a side gig and then that side gig becomes their new job. I looked at it as that, that my business was my job, that I looked at the corporate America side as the side gig. Chris: Yeah, okay. So so you get you kind of learn that lesson and you move forward. What were some of the things, when you look back, that you feel like were the decisions you made that kind of set the foundation for your future success Because anything right, you can use any analogy you want, but also you got to have a strong foundation to be able to build from Anything that comes to mind that you really look back on and are kind of proud of the early decisions you made, in the way you set things up. Chuck: I think that you have to choose your clients wisely, right? There's an old saying out there that if everyone's your potential customer, no one's a customer. Right, you have to and I'm listening up, because I'm not perfect in any means. When I first started, I started going just after telecom companies, and that because that was what I knew. I'd spent 20 years in telecom and I had to learn all other aspects if I wanted to do this. So, you know, I became an expert at digital marketing. I already knew operations from telecom. I already knew finance from telecom. Right technology, of course I knew that one. I really know a whole lot about HR or legal, but what I didn't know was marketing and sales. So I had to become an expert in that Right. And that was really the catalyst is when I went from just being a just knowing, just doing telecom companies to now specializing in really all types of businesses, but only particular size businesses. So I learned that I didn't want to do business with those big fortune 1000s anymore. The big electric providers right, those were our clients. Telecom companies, those were the state agencies, government agencies and things like that. I didn't want to deal in that arena anymore because I can impact a small business much more. Right, if I save a small business you know $100,000 a year or fix a problem that solves, that's worth $100,000 or $200,000, that's much more impactful than getting a state agency back $5 million because it's not real money to them anyway. Right, it's just taxpayer money. It's not like they're going to give it back to the taxpayers. They're going to find someplace else to spend it. Chris: Right, right. Well, I think there's some truth to what you're saying is, as you're starting out with the new business, it's very important to be really laser focused about who your customer is and stay kind of within those bounds and not start to chase every little thing that may come your way because it may not fit your skill set, it may not fit your purpose and it can be distracting. Chuck: It can be distracting and it'll give you, you know, doubt as to what you're doing, whether or not you're competent, right, and that'll kill you as an entrepreneur. When you start doubting yourself and doubting your abilities than others will. Chris: So we've talked a little bit about kind of getting started as you were kind of moving through the process. You've talked about kind of focusing in, I guess after about five years on really just being a problem solver. Let's talk maybe a little more detail about what are some of the things you're talking about when you say you know we solve problems. I know they can vary, but I'm just curious about some kind of specifics, to the extent you can share some specifics on that. Chuck: Sure. First of all, I always tell people is your problem worth at least $2,000? Don't be gonna do me with a problem, right? That's not worth something. I'm not doing it for free, so let me give you an example. So about a year and a half ago I got called by a customer of mine, a roofer, and he goes hey, I've got this company that I want to outsource my back office to and I need you to vet them. So that's a problem. I said, okay, fine, let me vet them for you. So I did that and they were a good company, right. And about six months later after that, I get a call from that company and as owner of the company, and she held up a little sticky note and it said hire Chuck. And I said what's that? She goes. When we had our conversation I know that I knew that I needed a Chuck and I said, okay, so how can I help you? And she goes listen, I've been in business for almost a year now. We're an outsourced VA virtual assistance company and we're just not really making. We're not growing fast enough. We're going to get about $14,000 a month in revenue. And I said okay, and I took a look into our organization and we started making some changes and first thing we did was we rebranded her as a business process outsourcing company instead of a virtual assistance company. Then we made some operational changes with her personnel, helped her grow and hire the right people, got all of her people certified in the softwares that they were using so they could truly be viewed as an expert instead of just a virtual assistant. In less than a year they went from $14,000 a month revenue to $140,000 a month in revenue. Okay, just changes that. We did Another company, a telecom company, swiss telecom, a telecom company right, they were getting a lot of short duration calls that they were being billed for and they didn't know what the problem was. So we've got a problem. So we did an analysis of tens of millions of TCAP messages which are getting technical here in SS7. It's like a phone record, but it's the digital version of it, right and we found that what was happening was, down the line, one of the providers that they were connecting to, because, remember, you go through several switches. You call them the US, it might go here. Anyway, one of those switches was given back what's called false answer supervision, before the call was ever answered. So that's why they're having short duration calls. People would call, it would ring nine, 10 times, no one would answer and they'd hang up but it was showing it's answered. So we fixed that problem. So really, it's any type of problem. It's like I want to open a new location, okay, so one of the things that we do in our LinkedIn reach out, that we do how we find clients is we just ask people what their problem is and we tell them everyone. We tell them how we would solve the problem. One is what's the true problem and what's the real problem? Because a true problem or their problem might be I need more revenue. Okay, so what's the real problem? Or is the real problem you need more revenue because your costs are too high, because if your costs are too high and we bring in more revenue, we put you out of business because you're selling low cost, right? Is it because you're marketing? Is it because you just don't have the right staff in place? So we do that analysis and take them through that and either fix it for them and hand it back to them or, once it's corrected, we can monitor on an ongoing basis. Chris: So when you do these projects, you assume you're not just a one man show. You've got a team working with you, and how have you gone about, I guess, building that team around you to make sure you have the right people? Chuck: So what I? Did is listen. So experience is important, diversity is important right, and diversity from the sense of people with different backgrounds are going to have different ways that they interpret a problem and the corrective action that they would find for that right. So although I'm the chief strategist for the company, I don't really go by the title CEO, but I'm CEO and chief strategist. I'm more of a strategy kind of guy, so I do handle a lot of the problems. Chris: When you know, name of the companies interact one. Chuck: You're going to interact with me, right? In most cases, but what we did is we wanted to find people like me, because I don't know everything that lets surround yourself with people smarter than you, right? So we go out and we find fractional people just like me, right? Possibly someone that's got a full-time job, they are a CEO of a company or they're an entrepreneur that own their own company or they're an accountant, right? So we have a lot of people that are working with us for finance issues, it professionals, right, and we've built a network of these people to where we hold all of their information so that when a problem comes in, we have three or four or five in some cases, 10 people that we can send that problem to and see what their thoughts are on it and then engage that person the one that we want to engage with to help us solve that. And then we do the program management or the program project management of that and we have a lot of employees, but we have a lot of fractionals working for us. Chris: Okay, that's an interesting model. I mean it makes sense, given what you're doing, and then you can kind of pick the right person for the issue at hand, Absolutely. So we were talking a little bit earlier and I know you know we talked about challenges you faced and being an entrepreneur and I just want you know, maybe share, some of the challenges you've gone through and how that's impacted the business or changed what you've done. From you know, from a, I guess, a business strategy. Chuck: Well, I mean, if you're in business, you're always going to have challenges, right. So you know, starting from the very beginning, just being able to redirect yourself. You know don't beat a dead horse, redirect, you know, make a decision one way or the other lead, follow. Get out of the way all those little sayings they say is you know, do that? Make decisions. Some of the you know. The first one was switching from being just strictly telecom to really handling smaller businesses. That was one. Then we diversified into where we had our own public relations firm because a lot of companies, what they were, what we found is a lot of companies have an issue with actually people knowing who they were right. So we created that company and being able to to in the economy, be able to utilize, you know, both companies right. Listen when very small businesses, they can't afford a lot sometimes but they can afford a little bit and that's like the PR company. One of the challenges that we had with that diversification is when COVID hit. Right, we were leading up into COVID. We were spending probably 90% well, 70% of our business was from a revenue perspective, was coming from the PR firm and these are small clients paying $395, $500 a month, right, for our PR services. And the Interact One, the more consulting, the high dollar ones, was really just me at that time, okay, and when COVID hit, basically all those customers call me hey, we don't know what's going on. We've got to stop and we've let everyone out of their contracts, for sure, but we lost about 90% of that business, and at the time I really didn't know what I was. Yeah, it was a very big hit and they really know what to do. But then I started thinking well, people really have problems now. Right, they've got problems that need solved. A lot of problems were, you know, during COVID is. You know, how do we maintain a remote workforce? How do we keep our store open but just have deliveries? How do we keep our employees engaged out? You know, how do we give our customers engaged? How do we transfer our shop from totally brick and mortar to an online right? So it was a godsend for me as far as building back up or getting more involved in the Interact One business. But because if I didn't have that, I don't know where I'd be today. I'd probably be dipping my toe back in the corporate pond again, right, right, but you've got to be able to. Chris: Yeah, the ability to, I guess you know, kind of pivot when necessary and kind of keep going is critical, yeah, For an entrepreneur especially small business owner Yep. What other? I guess, excuse me, what other advice when you think about how you interact with your? You know your partners, your kind of your, these, maybe these what I would call maybe alliances you have with other fractionals. But maybe there are other type of partners you used to keep your business successful, whether that's you know banking relationships, you know accounting, legal. What are some advice you have on that, on you know best practices to make sure you kind of surround yourself with that kind of strong team that you need to kind of have a stable business. Chuck: Yeah. So, listen, a lot of small businesses out there, right, they try to do it all themselves, right and don't. Right, there are professionals out there that can help you and even if you want to build everything in house, you know, make sure that you know, like you said, have a strong relationship with a banker, a financial person, you know, some sort of business coach maybe to help you do things. What I do is I just try to treat everyone with respect and, as a consultant, sometimes we especially when we're solving problems, right, I can't, someone can't say something to me and me go well, crap, how stupid are you? Right, you got to treat that business owner with respect and sometimes, if they're making boneheaded decisions, there's a little bit of dance involved in it. Right, so be respectful and earn people's trust and with, whether it's your business partners like me, you know all the other C level professionals that I work with, right, because most of the people that we bring on as our partner or our hybrid or partner or fractional whatever you want to call it consultants that we lean on in areas that we don't have the expertise, they're all C level, okay, so you've got to be respectful of them and trust their decision. Now we have a leave at them. First, right, trust just isn't given. But you know, be respectful and widen your network. Right, you're only as good as the people that you're surrounded by. Chris: Yeah, no, that's for sure. And they're a reflection of you, right? If you're bringing them in, whether that's an employee and you're putting them on a project or a consultant, and you're bringing them in, whoever that client is sees them as a reflection of you. So it's important to make sure they align, you know, with your fundamental values, absolutely, absolutely so in what I think you referred to this a minute ago, when you're talking about certain problems, you've been helping people solve anything you've seen in the last couple of years where you've been involved and maybe in certain projects and develop some. I don't know if there are best practices, but I'm thinking about work, the work remote world we're in and helping companies kind of navigate to a place that can work for the business, to remain profitable but also allow for some of that flexibility. Anything you can share on that regard. Trust Right. Chuck: So one of the biggest problems Just in case. Chris: I didn't hear that clearly. I want to make sure the audio is clear. You said trust. Chuck: That's what I'm talking about Trust, right, that's my text is coming out Trust. So what happens? And it's instilled a sin from the very beginning? Oh, 40 hours a week, and this is your rate, right? And how do I know that my people are working if they're not here? And I can see what's going on behind the desk? And my answer to them is the work being done. Right, is the work being done? And you, as a manager this is what I tell the business owner you, as a manager, need to make sure that you're giving them the work that can be done in the time period that you want it done in, right? You know, if you give someone three things to do and they can do it in four hours instead of eight hours, well, those are the things you needed them to do and they did it. So why shouldn't they get paid what you would have paid them, which was eight hours, okay, but then again, if you don't have your finger on it to where you know how long it takes them to do something, then that's on you, that's not on them. And if you give them too much and they're not getting it all done, then that's when you've got to start looking into it. Am I giving them too much Right. Chris: So the main thing with work remote. Chuck: That I tell, like I said I tell people is trust your people Trust, trust yourself that you made the right decision when you hired them, right, or it's your fault anyway, and then trust the fact that they're working. I've seen businesses that are like well, they've got to log into this system and stay logged in. Okay, well, they could be logging in while they're taking a nap. That doesn't mean that they're doing the work. Well, you know, we make them have a zoom open so that at any time we can look and see if they're working. I said you know I would quit. I don't, I'm going to do the work, but if you're insisting on having a camera on me making sure that I'm doing work all the time, then it's not a right fit. Right, there has to be trust. Chris: Yeah, you're right. I mean I think you know, in addition to trust, I think what I've seen and I think you're saying this as well is you got to communicate clearly what the expectations are Right. So when you talk about these assignments, I mean you know not only is the word getting done, is it getting done timely and efficiently and correctly Right, and if so, then you know you're on to something. And if not, then you got to correct that from a work performance standpoint and be able to say look, this is what the assignment was, this is what the deadline was, and if it didn't meet the standards, be able to explain why. And then figure out what's the right corrective action from there. Chuck: Yeah, expectations are everything and then being able to you know, another thing you do is get buy in from that remote worker you know how, what can you do, how much can you do it? You know, it's like my telecom days, the old telecom days. You had what was called an occupancy rate, so you had a call center where people are answering the call and then, oh, I want 100% occupancy, which that meant that 100% of the time that people were on the phone. And it's not possible, right, even the best call centers run at 60 to 65% occupancy, right, and you got to realize the way your people are too. If you're paying them for eight hours, you know what you'll be good, you're doing really good if you're getting six hours of real work out of them. Because you got to stop and think sometimes, as, as American culture, we really, I guess we really think that our employee employees owe us when really we owe them. Chris: Yeah, that's a good point. So let's talk a little bit just about you know, maybe on your personal leadership style. How would you describe your leadership style? And first there, and then you know how do you work with some of your clients. Maybe help them with their leadership style when those opportunities present themselves. Chuck: Well, I think that in the business that I'm in, I have to be collaborative, right, you can't make all the decisions and do everything yourself, and really that's what business owners have to do all the time telling them that you're, you know, you're micromanaging your people, you know. Give them some room to breathe, let them have some creativity, let them help make decisions. Don't just tell them what to do, ask them what needs to be done, and that's kind of my leadership style, right. But then I always go back to problem solving. So I want to know what the real problem is, what, not just the problem, the problem, you think the perceived problem, but what is the real problem and how can we correct this with any decision that's made? Chris: Yeah, so kind of we talked a little bit about this maybe. But I want to ask you a maybe different way when you think about yourself and your career, any kind of setbacks that you've encountered, that you look back and go man, that was a tough time, or I made a boneheaded decision or whatever, but what I learned from it benefited me so much that I can look back and be grateful for that experience. Anything come to mind for there that you can share? Chuck: Yeah, Back when I kind of first started the Interact One on the marketing side, when I was learning marketing, I had a company come to me and it was like we want you to help us acquire more customers. You remember back when deregulation happened on electricity in Texas. Chris:So we started working. Chuck: The problem and the problem that we gave them was you need to have a door-to-door team that needs to be trained this way and done this way and do all this kind of stuff. And they said, okay, great, do it for us. And 286 people later right, five locations across the state of Texas, a lot of money, Thank you, but it wasn't worth it and it almost made me to where I didn't want to even continue. Right, it was so stressful having that many people that are working on a commission-only basis right, Selling electricity, training them, looking at Perf and all of that kind of stuff. So it was very profitable and it's one of the things that, if I had my if I go back in time, that's maybe one thing that I would have changed is I wouldn't have went down that path that took so much energy and took three years of my life to do that. I could have done much greater things. Chris: I believe, interesting. So that kind of segues well into the next question I want to ask you and that is how do you go about maintaining you know there's all the. You know the typical word is work-life balance, and I'm kind of a believer and I had some other guests on the podcast and I agree with this is more about work-life integration than how do you manage both, because you have work and you have your personal life and how do you integrate those so you can show up effectively in both? What are some of the things that you do to try to make that happen in your life? Chuck: I take naps. Chris: I love it. Chuck: I'm a big proponent of taking naps, but really OK. So I've got, maybe, a different viewpoint, because I did the corporate America gig for 20 years and I had my business, grew it very big, then pulled it back small again and I work because I want to work. There is no work-life balance. I have life and I work when I want to work. And if I want to work five hours this week, that's what I work this week. If I want to take a week off, I take a week, and I know it's different for a lot of entrepreneurs, you know. But I'm entering the, the, the twilight state. I don't look at that. I'm pretty dang old, right, and I think that for the younger people starting out, or you know, mid-mid-age, right it's important, right? Don't do what I did in the first 20 years of my career, where all I did was work and I saw my kids on weekends, which initially eventually led to a divorce, which meant that I only saw them every other weekend, right? Yeah, 14 years ago I started over again. Wonderful woman, she keeps me grounded and she is my life, makes me want to be a better man, and we started a new family, so that helps out too. So I've got an eight year old son now, right, and I've got an eight year old granddaughter and I've got an eight year old grandson right. Oh, wow, yeah. So it gives you the. It's allowing me to have a second chance with that and I'm not going to fail it. So, yeah, I don't necessarily know how you do it, whether it's working out or yoga. This is the one of the one of the people in the podcast. They were doing yoga and all this kind of stuff. I know that you have to have something that stimulates your brain at all points in time. I've got an eight year old that does that I've got. You've got to have something that exercises your body. I've got an eight year old that does that. I help coaches lacrosse team and the day after practices I can barely walk. So I don't know if I have a great answer for it. I know it's important, but I'm not there anymore. I just I work because I want to work. Chris: Yeah, no, I work great hours. I think what I love there. Everyone has a little different take on it because, look, everyone's situation is different and so you've got to get to figure out what works in your ecosystem and your environment, and that includes, right, the family and the business and the career and all those things, and those things can change over time. Chuck: There's another camp. Chris: All right. So yeah, I appreciate all this has been really good stuff. I'm going to turn it a little bit to the lighter side and ask you what was your first job? Like real job or entrepreneurial job? No, that real job, I mean I don't know, like in junior high you had to pay for route, or yeah. No, I didn't, I didn't do the paper route. Chuck: So my for my, as I was raised by a single mom, right, we didn't have anything. She was a waitress. So I went into the family business and I bust tables and lost dishes at a restaurant. Chris: That will humble you really quick right, make you hungry, and not just hungry to say I want something different. Chuck: Yeah, I know that I want. I always knew that I wanted to have something more than what I had growing up. Chris: I know you said you listened to some of the prior podcast episodes, so I know you're ready for this one Tex-Mex or barbecue. Chuck: Well, it depends where right Sure, you know. So I do my own barbecue. Okay, so if I'm eating out someplace, I don't necessarily do Tex-Mex very well, except for guacamole I'm a great guacamole. But so I would say, if I'm eating out, it's a text. I eat more Tex-Mex than barbecue, but I enjoy barbecue. Chris: Ma'am, I may have to see if you can ship me some of yours and I bet it's pretty good. Yeah, I make some pretty good barbecue. I love. The honest answer there was. It depends where, because so many of us have. Well, if it's, you know, if it's this that I'm hungry for, then it might be this barbecue joint or this different Tex-Mex place. So I have to share. I just saw and I share with my girls, you know the L L L L Roya in Austin in their signs. There, there was, I saw a picture of this. One says Texan a person who chooses a restaurant based on their chips and salsa. Chuck: You know that's very true, Isn't that true? Chris: What we need is a. Chuck: Tex-Mex barbecue. Chris: Yeah, but we have some of that here in Houston. We have some places that are using like brisket in their tacos and things, so it is. Chuck: They have Korean barbecue. Right, they have Korean barbecue, so why not? You know Tex-Mex barbecue and you know have more. Of. You know the beans would be more of the barbecue style beans with some jalapenos in there. So I put jalapenos in everything. So everything is Tex-Mex. Chris: I like it. Well, you and I may have to get offline and we may come up with a new restaurant concept here. Chuck: Yeah, so okay, last question. This one's out of the menu, yeah. Chris: Everything's out of the menu. Yes. Last question is, if you could take a 30-day sabbatical or you just get away, where would you go and what would you do? Chuck: Well. So sabbatical means something different, right, and getting yourself in a different thing. So I like, at least twice a year, we go to the Smoky Mountains, which is my, that's my spot, right. When I first went to the Smoky Mountains, I was like this is where I belong, right. But a sabbatical might be a little bit different, and I think it would be really cool to go over to Africa and do a photo safari. I don't want to shoot the animals anymore. I did that growing up. I don't need to do it anymore, but to get them on camera and to live in the camps and stuff like that would just be. That'd be something to be really cool, yeah. Chris: It's a bucket list item for sure. Yeah, that's great. Chuck: Well, Chuck, I want to thank you again for taking the time. Chris: come on the show and share your story. I love hearing kind of the career you've had and the way you evolved and I love this the way you're helping companies solve big problems, so really appreciate it. Chuck: Well, I appreciate you having me. It was fun. Chris: All right, we're going to stop the recording there. Let me see if I can actually do that. Hmm, no, here we go. I'm not the host, it won't love me, but they know where we stopped, so hey. I was talking, I talk enough. No, you did great. Look, we, you know I was watching our timer. Yeah, we were. We probably stopped the recording in minute 3435 and 30 to 40 minutes is our goal, so we were right in the sweet spot. And yeah, and it always goes so fast because you're just having a conversation and I think everyone gets amazed that I can't believe it went that well. We were actually talking for that long, but yeah. Chuck: In my business I don't talk, I listen. So it's hard for me to fathom that I'm. You know, when I listen like when I do a conference call with a client I one of the people you had said they use order. We use order also and it shows you the stats on how long each person talked and I always make sure and always tell the other people that make sure that the client's talking more. Chris: Yeah, what you're talking, you know. Chuck: you look at the the the recap and it says Chuck talked for 36 out of 60 minutes. Well, that's too much, Right? Chuck needs to talk for eight minutes out of an hour and let the customer talk. Chris: That's good, that was good. Chuck: I look forward to seeing the seeing the episode. Chris: Absolutely, we'll be back in touch. I don't know. So, josie, with my team and Mackenzie they're my marketing kind of folks and I can't remember the name I know you kind of came through, a group that was, you know, helps you book these things, yeah, thanks. We want a headshot, kind of thing and all that. Chuck: They're having great the ride up on me. All that kind of stuff yeah. Chris: Well then, what we'll do? We'll give you a little. Obviously, there'll be some advanced warning once we get it all packaged up and we have a date certain that we're going to release it, and we'll get it all to you and your people, and then it'll be, it'll hit the presses. Chuck: So also, and the next time I'm in Houston I'll look you guys up and we do lunch or something. Chris: Please do. I would love that Love to go grab some barbecue. Yeah, thank you All right man, I talk to you later. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye, bye. Special Guest: Chuck Leblo.

In today's episode of Building Texas Business, I chat with Rafael Nasr, the man behind Craft Pita. Rafael shares his fascinating journey in the food industry, from starting his first business at a young age to launching Craft Pita. He talks about his experiences running a food truck and working for other businesses, emphasising the value of community involvement. We also discussed his perspective on private equity and assembly-line restaurants and how these experiences shaped him as an entrepreneur. It's an inspiring discussion with a successful food industry leader. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Rafael Nasr the founder of Craft Pita, began his entrepreneurial journey at 20 with a food truck, which was a learning experience in managing all aspects of a business and the importance of choosing the right business partner. He worked in various roles in the food industry before opening Craft Pita, learning about the importance of being part of a community, the impact of private equity, and the challenges of assembly style models. When opening Craft Pita, Nase had the goal of creating a scalable concept, planning from day one to open multiple locations. The name Craft Pita was chosen to reflect the restaurant's focus on quality and to clearly communicate the type of cuisine to potential customers. Rafael believes that hiring decisions are crucial in the restaurant industry, looking for a high hospitality quotient for front of house staff and attention to detail and quality for back of house staff. The company culture at Craft Pita is centered around sharing culture through food, creating an atmosphere where guests feel like they are walking into a family home. He had to adapt quickly to the challenges brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic, transforming the restaurant into a drive-through and offering additional products such as cleaning supplies and produce boxes. As a leader, Nasr believes in being in the trenches with his team and also knowing when to step back and let them do their own thing. He emphasizes the importance of empathy, awareness, and adaptability in leadership. We discuss the challenges of managing a team with diverse ages, backgrounds, and perspectives, emphasizing the need to individualize leadership styles. The podcast episode concludes with Nasser sharing his plans for a third Kraft Pita location and discussing the financial and legal implications of business expansion. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Rafael NasrAbout Rafael TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode you'll meet Rafael Nasr, founder of Kraft Pita. Rafi is growing a fast-casual restaurant concept with the goal of sharing culture through food. Rafi, I want to thank you for joining me here on the podcast. First, I just want to start with tell us who your, what your business is, what are you known for? Rafael:Yes, I am the owner and operator of Kraft Pita. We have two restaurants here in the Houston area, One in the Briar Grove Tanglewood Galleria area on San Felipe and Foundview, and we just opened our second location last November over on Buffalo. Speedway in West Park, here in the West U area, very close to y'all's office. Chris: Yeah, and I'm grateful for that, by the way. So I've heard a little bit, but I want to hear from you. Tell us what inspired you to start Kraft Pita. Rafael: Yes, so I'm a first-generation Lebanese, peruvian American. My father is from Northern Lebanon, and I spent my summers visiting my grandmother in Lebanon. My family has a restaurant business there as well, and so I spent a lot of my summers, you know, hanging out in my uncle's restaurant, always around food. I was the kind of kid classic story of grabbing scraps off the table at my grandma's house while the other kids are playing. You know, my sisters wanted to go to the beach and I wanted to go find the best shawarma possible. Chris: Okay, so that was the origin of my interest in the business when I was at Texas. Rafael: Christian University studying entrepreneurial management. I actually opened a food truck while I was in school, so I started my first business when I was 20 years old. It was basically a late night business for all the college kids after they got back home from the bars, soaking up a little of what they had enjoyed at the bars. So, as a university, this is a safety thing you guys need. And I sold my business because I wanted to graduate on time and TCU is not a cheap school by any means and worked for several other businesses but kind of, while all that was going on, working for other restaurants. Chris:I knew I wanted to open my own restaurant. Rafael: I saw an opportunity here in the Houston market for a higher quality Middle Eastern Mediterranean food. Chris: Okay, I love the idea that you started your first business when you were 20. Yeah, tell us, what was that like? Rafael: That was insane. I would go to class from 8am until 3.30. I would prep food from 3.30 to 5.30. And I would serve from about 6pm until 2am. Luckily I found my girlfriend slash wife right before I started the business, because my social life kind of took a back seat. So it was, you know, I didn't go to college anticipating being in the restaurant business, but it taught me what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I can tell you it was a lot cheaper than my degree, but it was a really valuable lesson in what it takes as an entrepreneur to wear all hats in a business, and I learned that very early on in my career and it set me on for a great path to eventually own craft beer. Chris: Yeah. So let's talk about kind of the things, that lessons you learned. You know doing that food truck, and then you get the idea for craft pita. What were you doing before that? And then what sparked you to kind of take the step to go on your own again? Rafael: Yeah. So lessons I learned owning my food truck tell you a very valuable one. I didn't have a great partner. You know that was part of the reason I wanted to get out of the business and I think that was a really valuable lesson I learned super early in my career and I think that's a valuable lesson for any entrepreneur is that when you choose who you're doing business with, it's like you're getting into a marriage. Chris: Right. Rafael: And I also learned that you know when you are starting a small business, particularly in the food side of the industry. You have to do as much as humanly possible yourself, because labor is your biggest expense. And I was in school and owning a business. I think if I was just running the business, I could have been more profitable. Things could have gone better. That was a valuable lesson I learned. I think everyone has a study. Oh, I want to, you know, invest in a restaurant. I want to bar, do this and it'd be cool. But I also want to do what I'm doing. This is a all in business. Gotcha and obviously now I'm all in. Chris: Look, I think what you say is right. I'll say I'm not sure it's much different for most businesses. If you're really going to be in it as the entrepreneur, owner, founder, you have to be all in for sure. Rafael: And especially that applies to business. Where business is, where you know human capital is the business you know you're. You need hands to to prepare something, you need hands to to serve something. And after that I came back here to Houston. I worked for a family friend over a Island Grill. Oh sure, yeah, I worked for a phasal, helped him open up his bunker hill store, worked there for about a year and I learned a lot working there. You know I learned that being a member of a community, being in neighborhood, a restaurant and shaking hands and kissing babies is a big part of being successful in this industry. I also worked for him to also gauge what Houston's interests were in the cuisine and Mediterranean food. After that I went to go work for a company called Bert's Cabot, which it was a Chipotle style Middle Eastern restaurant Okay, and they were opening up several units very fast to MBA guys out of UT and when I worked for them it was amazing they're growing really fast. But I also saw the negatives of what happens when private equity gets involved and their only priority is opening as many units as possible. I also learned that the assembly style, chipotle style model was not something I wanted to do for Kraft Pita. I thought it was something I wanted to do, but it's kind of hard to convey quality and translate that when you're going through an assembly, style, model, concept right. And I knew at Kraft Pita I wanted to be a better quality than like a sublayer Chipotle or any of those things. I also learned from them that branding is a really important thing. They, when I joined them, they were Bert's Cabot, then they were Bert's and then they became New Mediterranean and there was Turkish donor kebabs that are influenced by German food and I just learned that you don't have much time to translate what your food is to people especially when you're not selling American food. Chris: It sounds like they had an identity crisis. Rafael: It was an identity crisis and literally sometimes it was honestly just the name. You know your name is so important when you're in the food business and you can be kitschy, you can be cute, but when people read your name or need to type it into a web browser or into a social media search bar, it's got to be clear and has to be concise and has to translate what the product is. Chris: Yeah, sounds like you had an immense amount of learning in just a few years. Rafael: That was just two years and at the time my wife she's still in tech sales she moved to Austin so I followed her over there and I tried to get into fine dining. No one would hire me in any of the fine dining restaurants because of my past casual experience and taking two jobs in two years, so I ended up taking a job with Poppus at Popocitos I'm 35 in Austin and I stayed there for about three and a half years. I thought about going to culinary school but I already spent a lot of money on my degree and I decided to go work for Poppus because, being here in Houston, everybody knows the weight that name holds and also their management training is probably the best in the country when it comes to the hospitality industry. Chris: They're definitely known for that. Rafael: And they're known for that from outside of the industry when it comes to management, and I decided to go work for them, because why am I going to go to culinary school when I can go to restaurant school and they'll pay me? Chris: for it. Rafael: So that was an amazing opportunity I learned they have you start off as a busser and then a server, then a bartender, then a front of house manager, then you're a kitchen manager and when you get in the kitchen they have you work the fry line, then the grill line, make salads. They really. I learned there that as a manager, if you want to gain the respect of people that you're managing, you have to be able to do the job. You probably want to do it as well as them, but you have to know how to do it. Sure, I mean, there there was guys working the grill that were as old as I was. They've been working there for as long as they've been alive, right. So it's one thing to manage a few people, but then when you're a restaurant like that and you're managing 40 people at once, it really taught me everything I need to know to be ready to go my own. Chris: So you mentioned the importance of branding. So what was it that led you to Kraftpita True Mediterranean and to develop the concept that you came up with? Rafael: So funny story about the name Kraftpita. I'd actually come up with it before we opened our food truck. We ended up not using the name and one day in Austin we had been brainstorming what we would call the restaurant, whatever. My wife brought the name up and she said what about Kraftpita? And I was like that's a great name. What did you think of that? She said you came up with it 10 years ago. Chris: You were forgotten. Rafael: I had forgotten. I'm like man. I'm so glad my wife remembered. Chris: And again. Well, let me pause there For those that were at TCU late night what was the food truck? Rafael: called. So the food truck is again an example of bad branding. It was called Mediterranean Chunky Monkey. This was my partner's idea and actually funny story. We had gotten a cease and desist letter from Ben and Jerry's for the name because they owned the rights to all food products that have the words chunky and monkey next to it. I wish I would have known you then. Maybe you could have held down. Chris: The other important having a good legal team right yes, exactly. Rafael: But to that point I told, hey, make sure you look it up. We're all good. Obviously didn't, but this time around I definitely looked up, covered my bases, so, and luckily we were selling the truck at the time while they were sending us the cease and desist letter. We chose the name Kraftpita because, like I mentioned earlier, when you read the words Kraftpita and you know it's a restaurant, you know you're walking into a Mediterranean, middle Eastern restaurant and because of the word Kraft, that you are walking into somewhere that has premium goods baked from scratch, made to order, it connotates quality and true Mediterranean is partially a joke. Lebanese people think they invented everything and the Greeks think they invented everything. The Turkish think they invented everything. Palestinians, israelis it's a little bit of tongue-in-cheek of Lebanese food is the best Mediterranean food and we do believe that. Obviously I'm very biased, but I think what makes Lebanese food the best Mediterranean food is it has this through line of a freshness and spices that really brings the food up a few notches, whereas Greek food is not super heavy in the spices but lots of fresh herbs and things like that. And then, if you go into Turkish cuisine, syrian, jordanian, palestinian, and even if you go into Persian cuisine. There's a lot of spices. I think Lebanese food is that right balance of spices and freshness, and so that's where Kraftpia two Mediterranean food. Chris: I love it. So you opened your first location. You now expanded to a second location and some would say, especially in the restaurant business, going to that second one to two is a huge jump, because can you make it work when you now your attention split between two different locations? How have you made that work? Because part of that comes with having a good team. Rafael: Definitely. We developed Craft Media from day one to be a scalable concept, so we always knew we were going to have more than one location. It starts and when you, it's one thing to open a restaurant and then think about opening another one, but when you do it from day one, it does make it a bit easier. Not saying that it's been easy, but, for example, our menu is not that big, it's consolidated. We developed managers and a management training program that allowed us to train up one set of managers and then split them off once the new store opened. The other thing that I'm very lucky to have is I work with my mother, claudia. Her and I are a great team and I kind of spend, you know, 80% of my time at the new store 20% of my time at old store, whereas my mother does about a good 75 25 split. She stays at the old store and that makes a huge difference. You know, having ownership presence is one of the most important things at a restaurant and because I have, you know, because we're a team, we're able to split our time. Chris: Yeah. What is it then about making sure you're hiring right, because so many people you know and I, we live it here and I think any business owner you talk to is the hiring decisions are so critical to getting it right. What are some of the things that you do at Craftpita to make sure you're making the best decision you can when you make that hiring decision? Rafael: Definitely. At Craftpita we have a very high standard for hospitality. I do think it's something you can teach people, but there isn't a nature of hospitality when it comes to front of house. We really just ask basic questions like where do you like to eat? What's your favorite example of a good restaurant experience? You know, and typically you can find out if someone has hospitality based on the way they grew up, based on you know their families. They'll tell you. Like you know, my mother taught me. You know, to say hi bye every time I left the house, small things like that. And then in back of house we really try to find people who care about quality, because there's a lot of restaurants where now certain things are so a cookie cutter but they don't even really have to think while they're cooking. It just comes out and we're not selling. You know a very basic food we're selling food. You know, some people have never made hummus before or tasted in their life, and so how are you supposed to hire someone, teach them this recipe and know, even though, what the expectation is. So, front of house, we really look for a high hospitality quotient. You know, when we're interviewing in a back of house, attention to detail and quality, those things are really important for us. Chris: That makes sense. So how would you describe, maybe, the culture that you are building there at Craftpita, as you started it, and now growing it to multiple locations? Rafael: Definitely. I think you know it's in our mission statement that we are committed to sharing culture through food and I think that's really the company culture we try to derive at Craftpita. You know the two cultures I come from actually the three. You know, in Lebanese culture, hospitality is a big thing. You walk into your grandma's house, she gives you hugs and kisses and then there's about seven courses of food that come out, and you know that that food and that is part of the love right, and same thing with my mother's Peruvian culture it's all about family, all about having good time, all about being together and food is kind of this the core part of that and then also being here in Houston. Chris: I mean, you know, I always think Houston is where the south meets the rest of the country and southern hospitality is a thing. Rafael: So, yeah, we really just want you to feel like you're walking into our house and that's the company culture we build and that comes from you know, serving high quality products, and everyone has a group effort making sure people feel welcome. Chris: Very good, excuse me. So let's talk about starting a business and all that not easy. What are some of the maybe setbacks you've encountered and what have you done to overcome those? We've been through some, you know turbulent times recently and I'm sure starting a new business has not been the easiest. Yeah, what are some of the lessons learned that you could share with our listeners on that? Rafael: I mean, I think and I hope no one else has to deal with this lesson ever again, but I COVID happened six months after I opened my restaurant ouch yeah so I, you know, spent my whole life dreaming of this restaurant and you know things are going really well. We actually made a national list of the Yelp top 100 restaurants in America and it just made our business skyrocket because we were the only restaurant he's on the list wow and that was in January of 2020. Of course, you all know what happens February of 2020 and you know. I think the lesson with COVID is there will be outside forces that you did not predict that will affect your business and you can sit there and cry about it, you can roll over and die or you can hit the problem head on. I decided to. I realized when one of the big problems that was happening was how are people going to know we're open for business? Because not all a lot of people. You know we had the two week period here in Texas and some people stay closed and some people open up right after the two weeks happened. So I reached out to a friend of mine that had like a tent rental business and I said I need the biggest tent that can fit a f 350 because you know we got big trucks here in Houston. I need the biggest tent and I'm going to. I need to build a drive through. So I reached out to my landlord. I said, hey, can I do this? you was fine with it, and so we had a tent outside of a restaurant for, I want to say, about six to eight weeks okay, and you know several of my staff had to leave, for you know they had pre-existing conditions or they wanted to go on unemployment and so I basically worked for about 90 straight days outside selling food. I even started. I realized quickly that a lot of people wanted, like you know, cleaning supplies and gloves and sanitized. I got in the sanitizer business. I got in the gloves business. I reached out to my local farmers so I got produce from and I got farm share boxes. We became, you know, pseudo grocery store and that was that saved us, yeah, and a big reason another you know reason why that ended up working out for us is because of the presence of me, my mom, in the restaurant. I think a lot of people, you know, a lot of our local guests, didn't want us to fail right, that loyalty you know going above and beyond for people, for those several months that we were open, I think, built a relationship that to this day still keeps our business, you know, afloat, and a couple other things that our business ran into, partly still because of the whole COVID scenario. But other things is labor inflation over the last few years. I mean, I was looking at my business plan from 2019 and I was like I'm not projected labor numbers. I can tell you we're way above that. And then same thing with our food pricing still going up, and these are just things I think any business person will go through. Is, you know, outside forces affecting your business and unexpected increased costs that you cannot do anything to change? Right, you just have to find ways around it, whether that's giving the guests more value. In one way or another, you have to solve these problems or else they're going to take over. Chris: Yeah, it's funny you say, because most people having a good business plan is critically important and thoughtful and as soon as you finish the plan and go into action, the plan's worth nothing, right, exactly? Rafael: Since I opened my business 10 years ago, people have always come up to me with crackpot ideas. I want to open a bar, I want to open a restaurant, I want to go food truck. And my first question to them is have you drafted a business plan? And it's not. You know, the business plan is not the end, all be all. It's not what's going to get you all the investment money. But it is a plan. You just need guidelines. Chris: You need guidelines. Rafael: You have some thought laid out right, that's all Just laying out your thoughts and you know once you lay out your thoughts you should take that business plan, give it to someone who knows something and have them rip you to shreds. It's some of the. You know it might be humbling but it's necessary yeah. Chris: So how would you describe your leadership style? You know fairly young entrepreneur you mentioned earlier when you were in Poposita. Most people that were reporting to you were much older than you, so how have you managed through that and how has that leadership style developed? Rafael: Yeah, I think you know I've only been a manager. I've never. I never was like a server at a restaurant. So for me I've only been in management. I went from, you know, being on my own being a manager I would say not a very good one at all in any way, shape or form and I was maybe managing four or five people. Then I went to a mom and pop business where there was one central leader and I was just kind of a cog in that wheel and I molded my style of leadership then to, you know, be a service leader and help out the staff with Under Me and kind of bring whatever they needed to my boss. And then at Verds it was kind of like a, you know, a small to mid-sized growing business where they were really trying to implement their leadership style and I just I kind of went along with whatever they needed. But it was a little bit autonomous in the sense that they were headquartered in Austin, not in Houston. So you kind of also have to develop an in-store, in-store leadership that you are, at the end of the day, the point person. Papa's taught me that you know, you can't manage everybody to say, especially in a big restaurant like that, you do have to individualize your leadership style with people. And I think in my industry I think that's a really important lesson, because some because at the end of the day, when you're managing people and you're being a leader, there are the moments where you're in a big like pre-shift total and everybody's listening to you and in those scenarios I would say I tend to do extremely well because I can command a presence. And then there's the times where you have to sit someone aside and listen and just let them talk and that is not necessarily you leading from, that's not necessarily you leading in the sense that you're telling them what to do. Chris: But by you just listening. You're showing them that you're there for them. Rafael: And I think I would describe my leadership style as I don't even know this, but experiential. You know, I'm in the trenches with my people and I also know when to pull back and let them do their own thing. Chris: Well, I think what you were describing earlier is as a leader, how important it is when you're talking about the listening side is to demonstrate an empathy Right, and you learn so much. I mean you're managing or leading people. Everyone's different and one size doesn't fit all. Rafael: One size does not fit all, especially in the restaurant industry, where, in a lot of hospitality, where you're dealing with teenagers, middle-aged people and older people I mean just from the age perspective, let alone people's different backgrounds you have to not everyone's in the same bubble, right. Chris: You know, some of the best workers I have are teenagers, and it's their first job. Rafael: They've never done anything before, but I've molded them into what I need at Craft Pita. And then other times you might get someone who's a 20-year vet in the industry, but they don't listen. So you might have to stroke some egos and let them do their thing, but those two people you have to manage completely differently. So, yeah, it's been definitely. Throughout the years, my leadership style has changed and I think that's a good thing, to acknowledge that. You can go through ups and downs, but just constantly being, I feel, like awareness, in my opinion, is probably the most important trait as a leader if you're the owner of a company, because if you have that awareness that you might need to change your leadership style or sometimes you got turned up, sometimes you got turned down. That will take you really far. Chris: Very true, very true. So interested to ask you about this. So you've expanded to a second location. You said earlier when you started you were always planning to scale this business. So I have to think this is a question on a lot of entrepreneurs' minds what does it take, or when do you know when's the right time to make that expansion? And you know because you're gonna be facing it. You probably are now, but when do you go to the third store? So what are some of the things that you look forward, that you've learned to look forward to know when it's right? Rafael: Of course I think it's. I think this applies to a lot of businesses and it definitely applies to the restaurant business. One, obviously, financials you have to make sure that you can afford to expand right, and I think that's obviously an obvious one. But you should be conservative. This is a tough business in the sense of it's very capital intensive. To open up a restaurant Construction is a nightmare. Dealing with the city is a nightmare. You don't. You can have a really good idea of what something will cost to build out a restaurant, and I can't tell you it's wrong. I definitely had some struggles getting this store open and it was already a second-generation restaurant which normally should be easy, but it goes to like. Chris: The lease terms and tenant allowances are important, and then timing of when you're going to actually rent commences off of completion. All those. Rafael: Which the first store. You know, we dealt with a smaller landlord, the local landlord, and this new store. Over here on Bubblest Weedway there's a big national one. And just dealing with that legal process inside. That was really eye-opening to me. But yeah, that all plays into the financial decision, right. Secondly, I would say knowing when you're ready is it's a management autonomy issue? Is the restaurant running itself? Yeah, if you took a step back. What would happen? I was fortunate enough to kind of have a situation be forced upon me in that I had to go on my honeymoon, I had to get married. You know, my wife wasn't gonna let me get away with that one, so she was tired of waiting Is she we watch ad proposed and then COVID pushed back our wedding about two years but it was kind of a good. Hey, I need to get this restaurant to function for two weeks without me and obviously with COVID having all this stuff. I was very hands-on with the business but I think a lot of small business owners, specifically a lot of restaurant small business owners, struggle with like literally trying to step away. You have to. It's active, that don't do it passively is I'm going to walk? Chris: away today. Rafael: And you know what, if they mess up a catering order, if they mess up a few, this happens, that happens. You got to kind of, you know, eat sour grapes, or else you're never going to be able to scale. Chris: Well, and I think on that mess up part, I mean, obviously it's usually more in how you respond to the mistake than the fact that you made one, because we're all human, yes, now, if you consistently make mistakes, that's one thing, but if you make it, your customer may not be happy, but how you respond and own it and make up for it will speak volumes as to whether they give grace. Rafael: Absolutely Two things on that. One, I always one of my management things is it's okay if you make mistakes, I just care that you learn from them. If you show me you don't learn from mistakes, that's telling me you don't care? Yeah, you know we're, it's human, whether it you know, what we do is very. There's a lot of errors, whether it's temperature or technique, whatever. It's just a matter of if you do learn from those mistakes. So, if you have to step away from your business and your team makes a mistake, it's very important to say, okay, guys, how do we prevent this from happening again? And on that same point, this is something I learned from Papas is that you know if you make a mistake and you train your guests that, no matter what mistake happens at our restaurant, we're going to fix it, whether that's comping it, remaking it, giving them a gift card for the next time they come in, or just if some of those people want it as an apology or to be heard. It trains your guests that your money is good here. If you spend $50 here, we're going to make sure you get $50 worth of your time and money. Yeah, so I think that's super important, Very good. Chris: Well, so Let me ask you this I mean, as we kind of wrap things up, what are one or two things you would advise anyone, whether it's to start a restaurant or just any business, to kind of keep in mind as they move forward with that plan, that dream, whatever it may be? Rafael: I would say, you know, to touch on a few things that we've already talked about at the end of the day. The restaurant business is not about food. It is about people. It is about your own people and it is about your guests. You're gonna spend a majority of your time dealing with your own people or dealing with guests. You're not gonna spend a whole lot of time, you know, coming up with recipes and making sure the food turns out perfect. That's obviously a given, but the restaurant industry is a people business, so you have to mold everything you do around taking care of your own people and taking care of guests and if you approach it. That way you're gonna be successful most of the time and hopefully you're halfway decent at making food. But that's just probably the first thing I would tell people. Secondly, you know I don't want to be one of those people that says stay away from the restaurant business. But this is. It is a business that requires high business acumen as well as knowing how to operate. I consider myself you know I'm a chef. I've been cooking for 10 years but I will always consider myself a business, a businessman before a chef. And I think that's an important I think if you approach operating this in this line of work as being a businessman or woman, I think you're going to be successful. More than do I make delicious food. Chris: You're 100% right. I mean, if you can't run in any industry, if you can't run a disciplined business, you can make the best product, whether it's a plate of food or a widget your business won't survive. Someone else will take over that widget or replace you, but your business won't be there unless you can run a smart, disciplined business and that has financially human capital yeah, lots of tenants to it. So, very true, all right, so let's have a little fun. This will be interesting from you, since you've shared your passion for your food and from your culture. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Rafael: Ooh, that's a tough one. I'm a big barbecue guy. That's probably my passion food. Chris: Oh, I love it yeah. Rafael: I'll never get in the business. I actually just did a barbecue cook-off in Midland at the Permian Basin Cook-Off. I did barbecue for about 14 hours. I respect all my friends at barbecue so much more after doing that, I bet. Chris: So barbecue, barbecue, it is all right. So if you could take a 30-day sabbatical, which you've already explained how difficult that would be for you where would you go? What would you do? Rafael: Oh man, 30-day sabbatical. I've always wanted to do a trip to Japan. I've yet to go there. It's one of the culinary capitals of the world. I would like to go there and kind of get out of my comfort zone from a perspective of not being able to speak the language and not being super familiar with the culture. So I probably do about 30 days in Japan if I could. Chris: All right, and I don't usually go here, but since you're an expanding business, you've got two. When can we expect the third-craft, pita? Rafael: Third-craft pita. We're very comfortable with where we're at right now. It's going to be a lot easier to find a third location when we already have two operating. And I told my realtor team hey, give me the green light. I'd probably say 16 months. Ok 16 months. Chris: Well, as I've said before, I've told you I think you're doing a great thing. It's a great concept, the food's outstanding and congratulations, thank you so much. Rafael: I really appreciate it because it really means a lot. Chris:Well, thanks again for being here, enjoyed here and your story, and I wish you the best success. Awesome, thank you. Special Guest: Rafael Nasr.

Seek the stress. Scale with soul. Embrace your uniqueness. These are just a few of the pearls of wisdom flying fast and furious when Christina Luconi, Chief People Officer at Rapid7, visits with Host Chris Schembra on this episode of Gratitude Through Hard Times. Her self-awareness, strength and positive vision have not only been central to building out staff for some amazing startup companies (from inception through IPO). These are also the traits that have defined her full and fascinating life – whether taking her teen-aged daughters on a transformational trip to Tanzania or snatching life-giving lessons from a life-changing cancer diagnosis. This is a woman who brings her whole, authentic self to every interaction and in the process offers connection and empathy to others. You'll learn about how Christina expresses gratitude and the powerful benefits it confers, rippling out in how she frames “negative autobiographical experiences.” Where did she find the courage to reinvent herself at the age of 14 without erasing who she was before? When did she realize that she held within her the ability to embrace things in tension and turn them into opportunity? Christina shares her journey and explains how she has been able to bridge her reality as the lone woman in many C-suites by staying true to her core values: “If you work hard enough, there aren't a lot of boundaries you can't overcome. IF you're committed and drive towards that!” Tune in to find out why this Bostonian dynamo hopped in her car to pay Chris a visit. It's a very special episode chalk full of “news you can use” and that you won't want to miss!Interested in hearing more from Christina? She offers a treasure trove of interesting perspectives in more than 200 LinkedIn posts you can find at this link.Check out this brand new website to learn about the keynote topics and workplace leadership trends that are top of mind for Chris these days! And if you're interested in having a 7:47 Virtual Gratitude Experience or subscribing to our newsletter, please visit this link.Click hereto hear more fascinating conversations with Fortune 500 CEOs, professional athletes and entertainerswho have shared their human stories on Gratitude Through Hard Times. KEY TOPICS:If you could give credit or thanks to one person in your life that you don't give enough credit or thanks to – that you've never thought to thank – who would that be and why? Although she's always been very intentional about sharing her appreciation, she still feels she couldn't possibly have thanked her parents – whom she so admires – enough.Using the Right Words: About the power of expressing gratitude in language that resonates with the recipient.Breaking Rules: How Christina reinvented herself at the age of 14, figuring out how to expand her world and thinking in ways that have served her well ever since. Three Options for Managing Through a “Negative Autobiographical Experience”:Ignore it, pretend it didn't happen and just move on.Talk it out with a therapist or by journaling and then move on.Specifically assign positive benefits that have occurred as a result and give thanks to it for becoming a beneficial part of your life story, a practice known as "grateful processing."Why Not Me? What Christina has come to understand about our ability to challenge our self-imposed limitations through humility, determination and drive.Breaking the Ceiling: How Christina figured out ways to leverage being the only woman in the room to break boundaries and elicit vulnerability in C-suites full of male entrepreneurs. A superpower!Buck the Statistics: Why it's important not to get trapped by what is and surrender to a victim mentality rather than pushing the envelope and making change!Leading With Empathy: About the importance of understanding other people's experiences and perspectives when navigating corporate culture and decision-making.Be the Change: When living with unresolved conflict impacts others with forms of entitlement and hearts at war.How Trauma Lands: Why every person's threshold is different.Scaling With Soul: How to stay authentic under even the most stressful circumstances, like taking Rapid7 from being a startup with 75 employees to a publicly traded company with more than 2,000 global personnel.Christina's World View: About the role of challenge and seeking while also keeping balance through life experiences that promote openness and awareness.Observing Versus Engaging; Empathy Versus Sympathy: It's all in the perspective!Hope & Healing: How an attitude of gratitude – not found in comparison – yields very real mental, emotional and physical rewards. 365 Days: About Christina's decision to write – and post publicly – her thoughts and experiences by pretending no one was reading them! It was about seeking connection with others and by putting herself out there, she did exactly that.When In Rome: How pasta and all its associations creates magic for Chris and Christina!Three Things From the Conversation:The power of Mudita, the dharmic concept of joy that comes from delighting in other people's well-being (as Christina experienced in her chemo encounter).Christina lives life in a dialectic posture, embracing black and white as well as the gray. She is able to hold things in tension.While she's open to therapy, what Christina finds most helpful and healing is candid conversations like this one with Chris!Timing Is Everything: How, when and why Chris and Christina connected.Honor the Moose: About the concept of aligning individual and team collaboration as part of the core corporate ethic at Rapid7.The 3C Model of Collaborative Leadership: Connect, Collaborate and Champion.In Parting: What it was that inspired Christina to get in her car and drive 3.5 hours from Boston to NYC in order to connect and share meaningful conversation with Chris!Closing the Gratitude Loop: Christina's message for her parents and daughters. QUOTABLE“Life is about connections … For me what has made the work that I've done or my life interesting is the connections I've made with people. It makes my world expand.” (Christina) “There's something beautiful about (not) turning your back on the past but looking for the positive benefits in it and keeping it as part of your life story.” (Chris) “Everything I have lived through is an opportunity. There are things that I've screwed up or am not proud of, but I don't dwell on them. I look at what I can take away from that moment and do better.” (Christina) “If you work hard enough, there aren't a lot of boundaries you can't overcome. IF you're committed and drive towards that!” (Christina) “Life is not about avoiding bad things happening to you. Life is about avoiding a negative mental attitude when those things occur.” (Chris) “Scaling with soul is about how you keep the essence of your value set and what you're trying to be … You can still be a really great place!” (Christina) “You can observe or you can engage. And those are two really different things.” (Christina) “There's good in everybody. You just have to be open to finding it and open-hearted to know that just because someone is different from you doesn't make them better or worse. We're all just humans.” (Christina) “Hard times don't have to create loneliness. Hard times can create meaningful moments of connection.” (Chris) “All the best things in my life have happened when I've said ‘yes,' versus ‘no.' ” (Christina) LINKS/FURTHER RESOURCES:Click here to learn more about “Taking Care of Business? Grateful Processing of Unpleasant Memories,” the study conducted by researchers at Eastern Washington University."The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict," by The Arbinger Institute.More about the many benefits of an attitude of gratitude available at this link."No One Wins Alone," by Mark “the Moose” Messier. ABOUT OUR GUEST:Christina Luconi leads Rapid7's strategic people initiatives as its Chief People Officer. She is responsible for the entire employee lifecycle, with critical focus on recruiting stellar talent, building and inspiring corporate culture, acquisition integration, and “scaling with soul.” Prior to joining Rapid7, Christina was the owner of People Innovations, an independent consulting firm focused on the creation of innovative people strategies for startups and high-growth companies, primarily in the high technology industry. Christina also served as Chief People Officer at @stake, a professional services security firm that she helped build from the launch through its acquisition by Symantec. She also played the role of Vice President of People Strategy at Sapient Corporation. Joining the company prior to its public offering, she was responsible for building the people-focused side of the company from the ground up, aligning business strategy with people needs. Christina also played a critical role as a member of the senior management team, focusing on the strategic and operational direction of the company as well as executing acquisitions, from due diligence through integration. FOLLOW OUR GUEST:WEBSITE | LINKEDIN ABOUT OUR HOST:Chris Schembra is a philosopher, question asker and facilitator. He's a columnist at Rolling Stone magazine, USA Today calls him their "Gratitude Guru" and he's spent the last six years traveling around the world helping people connect in meaningful ways. As the offshoot of his #1 Wall Street Journal bestselling book, "Gratitude Through Hard Times: Finding Positive Benefits Through Our Darkest Hours,"he uses this podcast to blend ancient stoic philosophy and modern-day science to teach how the principles of gratitude can be used to help people get through their hard times. FOLLOW CHRIS:WEBSITE | INSTAGRAM | LINKEDIN| BOOKS

Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it's not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur. Guest: Chris Sexton Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   TRANSCRIPT:  MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University.  Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show.  CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.  MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris' food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from.  CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon… MARY: Don't give your whole secret away.  CHRIS: No, everything's not coming, but we've got great stuff coming.  MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you're in finance.  CHRIS: I'm in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy's Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal.  MARY: Oh, wow. CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt.  MARY: Wow.  CHRIS: And they all came out great.  MARY: Yeah. On your first time. CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great. MARY: Right.   CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it's what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there.  MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie. CHRIS: A foodie.  MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie.  CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I've ever had.  MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff.  CHRIS: And it's encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.” MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different. MARY: Yeah. It totally is.  CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I'm tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done. MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?   CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit.  MARY: Oh yeah.  CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce.  MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.   CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon. MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.”  CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you've ever had.”  MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know.  MARY: Exactly.  CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you're thinking barbecue sauce.  MARY: Totally.  CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in.  MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?   CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering.  MARY:Yeah.  CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling. MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill.  MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food.  CHRIS: So yeah, if you're looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I'm your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher.  MARY: Right. CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up.  MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them.  CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it's crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball. MARY: Wow. CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going. MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap. MARY: Right. CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.  MARY: 22 wrecks? CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents.  MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris. CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants.  MARY: They don't mix.  CHRIS: That's not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies…  MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies.  CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient.  MARY: Yes. CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick MARY: Right. You had no idea.  CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come. MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it's going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it's the sauce, it's the sauce, it's the sauce.”  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.” MARY: Right. CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.   MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does. CHRIS: That's my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to… MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps.  CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke's manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you're getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you'll see my pretty face on it. MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold.  CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business… MARY: It is.  CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant. MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners.  CHRIS: That's been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand.  MARY: Right. Wow.  CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that's the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I'm making solid decisions.  MARY: And you understand that risk.  CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone. MARY: Absolutely. CHRIS: You don't want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That's not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do.  MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you? CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I'm kind of shy.  MARY: I don't believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine.  CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead. MARY: I believe that.  CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up. MARY:  Right. CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire.  MARY: Oh, no. Yeah.  CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on.  MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time. CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I've got a grandson now.  MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather.  CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it's something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me...  MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him. CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years.  MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like. CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you? MARY: Right. Exactly.  CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am.  MARY: And who cares? If they're laughing at you, they're looking at you?  CHRIS: They're looking at you. They're going to remember.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce.  MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.   CHRIS: Want to hear a good story? MARY: Yeah always.  CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?  MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.  CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…  MARY: Yeah.   CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away.  MARY: Yeah, yeah.  CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.  MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all's stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.  CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me. MARY: Right. CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.  MARY: Yeah. CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.  MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?  CHRIS: I'm going to steal one from Ted Lasso.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming. MARY: Right. Be prepared.  CHRIS: Be prepared because something's around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.  MARY: Yes.  CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it's what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.  MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So it's what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It's got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.  MARY: I love that. The three F's.  CHRIS: The three F's.  MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.  CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?  MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.  CHRIS: I don't know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.  MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.  CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own. MARY: Right.  CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.  MARY: And put them together.  CHRIS: So this is kind of what I've done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I'm willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you've never had a flavor like this.  MARY: All right, let's see it.  CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.  MARY: He's going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that's a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?  CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.  MARY: Okay.  CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.  MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.  CHRIS: Cheers.  MARY: Oh my gosh.  CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.  MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?  CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.  MARY: Oh yeah. So, we're going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.  CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.  MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it's the entertainment and food. You can't beat that. CHRIS: Let me tell you.  MARY: Yeah.  CHRIS: I didn't mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.  MARY: It does taste good.  CHRIS: It tastes good. I'm a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.  MARY: I think you have too.  CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.  MARY: I think…I can't put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?  CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it's Chris Sexton or Sexton's Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton's, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.  MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.  CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.  MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.  The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it. So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.    

In today's episode, I chat with Amber Jones from Tangram Interiors about her company's move from California to Texas and how they foster innovation through their unique design process and showroom experience. Amber shares insights on staying ahead within the cyclical furniture industry through careful research and an emphasis on maintaining company culture during times of growth. We also discuss the challenges of managing virtual teams and leading with collaboration. Amber offers perspective on balancing work and family from Brené Brown and shares her wisdom on these topics. It was a thought-provoking discussion exploring transforming workspaces and ideas to enhance life beyond the job SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Amber Jones, the Vice President of Sales at Tangram Interiors, discusses the journey of moving their operations from California to Texas, and how they use unique tools like noise and digital maps to improve their showroom experience. She provides insights into the cyclical nature of the furniture industry, emphasizing the importance of staying ahead of the curve and fostering an environment of innovation within the company. Amber emphasizes the significance of maintaining company culture amidst expansion and managing a virtual team in a post-pandemic world. She highlights the importance of work-life balance, which differs from person to person, and shares Brené Brown's perspective on marriage and the importance of enjoying the people you work with while maintaining a balance with family life. The episode includes a fun chat about Amber's first job and her preference between Tex-Mex and Barbecue. Tangram Interiors creates innovative workspaces, making spaces where people can learn, work, and heal. They use technology and unique tools like noise maps and digital maps to improve their showroom experience. Amber believes in fostering a strong company culture, which she sees as vital when expanding into multiple offices. She emphasizes the importance of planning and research when entering new opportunities or meeting new people. Amber talks about the evolution of leadership styles and the challenges faced due to the pandemic. She highlights the importance of creating workspaces that allow productivity and foster collaboration. She discusses the potential of radical honesty in relationships and how it can foster growth and trust. She also talks about the importance of leading with a collaborative mindset and the need for self-awareness. The episode ends with a discussion on dreaming of a life in France and wishing Amber Jones the best of luck as she expands her business in Texas. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller GUESTS Amber JonesAbout Amber TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Amber Jones, vice president of sales at Tangram Interiors. Amber shares how Tangram uses innovative designs to create amazing places for people to work, learn and heal. Chris: So Amber, I want to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks for agreeing to join us. Amber: Thanks for having me. Chris: So let's talk about Tangram Interiors. I want you to at least start by telling the audience what is the company known for and what do you do. Amber: Yeah, so Tangram is a commercial interiors organization. Basically, we create amazing spaces where people learn, work and heal. So all of the interiors, from the flooring to the walls to the furniture, I'm just really creating spaces where people can go to work or go to learn in classrooms or education or, like I said, heal in hospitals and those types of environments that's great. Chris: How old is the company? When did it start? What was the inspiration for it? Amber: So Steelcase we are Steelcase dealership, which is a major mainline manufacturer, and so they've been around for a hundred years, and the Steelcase dealership that Tangram purchased was in 2000 in California, and so what brings us to Texas is that in 2021, we acquired a dealership here in the Dallas Metroplex, and so that is what's brought me to Texas via Tangram Interiors. Chris: Okay, so you're a transplant Californian, now Texan. I'm one of those. Amber: Yes, but you know I'm really enjoying this place and I you know it's not something that I would have like raised my hand and volunteered for, but honestly I feel so at home here, and I just know that the business world that we found ourselves in over the last two years is exactly where our business is supposed to be. Chris: That's great. Let's talk a little bit about that process of the move. What has it been like from your perspective? You know, moving a basically a California business I know it was by acquisition, but moving that California business to Texas, yeah. Amber: And so, what has it been? Chris: like. Amber: Interesting. You know, it's really it's. I want to say it was a challenge, but it wasn't. I think that the Metroplex is confusing in some ways in that it's large but there's a lot of really close knit relationships here and so we were able to bring on some really great people that had some really existing, really good, strong standing, existing relationships in the market, which helped us to position ourselves in the right way in the right place. But I definitely part of the reason for it and part of what made it so helpful and necessary is that the majority of our customers were looking at moving to Texas, and so when you start thinking about how can we do business in both states with you, it made sense for us to be able to send them away from California and then receive them as they arrived in Texas. So it was really, it was an obvious next step for us and when the position you know, when the dealership position opened itself up, it made sense for us to acquire them for sure. Chris: That makes sense. I can tell you, at least from the legal perspective. I've lost count of how many California companies we have represented and since, say you know, late 2000, early 2001, helping them set up shop in Texas. Amber: Well, it's interesting in that regard, you know. It's like where do you home them from right? Like, are you running your business as a California business that has an extension in Texas, or do you have a Texas business that has an extension in California? Or two independent companies. So, yes, some struggles, as we like learn to adjust about. You know where do we write the laws from as far as, like you know, labor laws, etc. Chris: So, yeah, I can tell you, most of our experience has been the we are doing Texas based entities, that basically converting the California entity into a Texas entity. Amber: There's a bajillion reasons why that makes the most sense. So, yeah, it's definitely the direction that we're heading in. Chris: So you've got this company. You create amazing spaces for your clients. What about for your people? I mean, I guess your showroom has to showcase your talent. So how do you go about designing your showroom and fostering, I guess, that creativity in the workplace for your employees? Amber: Yeah, so it's very important that we have spaces that reflect what we do. So we work in our showroom. So working showrooms are a little bit more interesting than just a regular like office place would be. Everything is pristine and there's lots of choice and control about how and where you work throughout the day. So maybe I'm coming in for a quiet day and so I would locate on the floor plan, on the digital map, as to where it's most quiet for the day in the space and then maybe that's where I want to work so that I have access to the resources, Whereas other days maybe I came into the office to have more of a social day. So I'm going to look on the kind of noise map for the space and decide where it's loudest and maybe that's where I'm going to go set up shop so that I can get that like extroverted you know full feel that I needed in coming into the office. So it's really exciting. I really it's almost like working in a zoo some days because there's just tours happening so regularly that it's. But it's cool because it gives us the opportunity to really use and show the product that we sell. Chris: So you mentioned two things that I've never heard of before. That was a noise map and a I forget the other one a digital map, I guess. So yeah, tell me a little bit about that. I'm just intrigued. So is that something that I guess that you offer your clients where you can and you use it there in the office to figure out what's? Amber: your debt on. So we have a technology arm of what we sell so furniture, technology, walls and we really feel like if you can plan a space that integrates the technology and the furniture together versus an afterthought, you're going to have a much better experience for your users. And so for us, we want we want anyone to come in all day and be able to work wherever they want. So part of that is that we are a view, sonic mood, sonic showroom, and that means that we have different zone maps throughout our space. So when you walk in, there's like literally a floor plan on a big digital screen and it shows you where it's loudest throughout the showroom and then where it's quietest, and then what the noise does and the little iPads is. It allows for you to adjust the soundscapes that pump into that area of the showroom to adjust to how much noise is happening there. I personally am a very loud human being, so we joke that color follows me throughout the showroom as I get louder and walk. But also that means that the white noise that's pumping into the space follows me, so that you can see that I'm talking, but you can't make out what I'm saying while you're on a video call across the room. So we really feel, as we get back, especially post COVID, to how many video calls that we're all having in our workplace. No matter what we do for a living, there must be something in your workplace that allows for you to have that hybrid experience and not have it be choppy. So there has to be a reason for you to leave your house Right and it has to be an office that works for you. And the office that we left pre-COVID, that we didn't do a lot of these video calls, didn't have to have the same things that the office today have, and we really feel like a lot of that is the addition of technology because of the communication that happens on screen. So much now. Chris: It's so true. I think anyone I know I can speak for myself but anyone that's been back in the office and we really came back to the office in May of 2020. Amber: Pretty quickly Very smartly, very carefully. Chris: Most people have their own private office here. Amber: Different experience. Chris: But the number of doors that are shut throughout the day for the reasons you just said to control the noise, because we're on Zoom or team calls can get frustrating because we are very open door policy, very great culture, but it's somewhat counterintuitive. So what you're talking about makes total sense to me. Amber: It's hard because it's like why am I leaving my home office, where I have everything set up and I don't have to drive, so that I can go sit in another private office in a conference in a big building where I had to drive in park, just to shut the door again? Like what am I getting from one or the other? What's the benefit to leaving the house? And so really the challenge is what's the pull? So we say you have to return to something better than you left. It can't be the same office. Chris: Yeah, that's great. So kind of on that topic and he's thinking about your company, the downturn. I mean, you're clearly in a business that requires personal interaction and connection. How did y'all manage through keeping the business going when your employees and probably your customers or potential customers did not want to be in person? Amber: Yeah, it's interesting. I would say that the vertical markets that we cover is one of the benefits of our organization, because when things got bad, hospitals still had a huge need, there was still healthcare requirements that were happening around. Covid Schools still needed to pivot and make changes, so there were still things that were happening in some of those other sections. But certainly furniture is something that people don't buy when they don't have to right, and certainly not when there's not people in the office, and so it was a weird time for sure. But I think that what happens in this industry, specifically with furniture, is it's very cyclical. You can look back at like the 2007, 2008,. Then you can look into like there was like this 2016. I mean, there's like times and moments in time where things like took a little bit of a dip, not as much purchasing was happening. I think those are moments in time where we can be strategic and really align ourselves with where do we see those next verticals growing? Right now, bioscience is huge. That's where we need to be focusing, as we move forward, some of the more opportunities to track the industries, versus just waking up and expecting the same type of business to be there every day, you know. Chris: Makes sense. So innovation's got to be a very important aspect for the well-being and growth of your company. What are some of the things that y'all do to instill or encourage innovative things to be fostered throughout the company and encourage your people to think and act innovatively? Amber: Yeah, so I guess two pieces. Obviously, it's very important that what we're selling is innovative. I think a lot of that is based out of absolute research 100% research-based organizations in Steelcase, and so they spend a lot of time trying to figure out what people need and why. And so when it hits the market and we're selling it, we've got so much history and so much research to back why we're bringing another chair or another table or another thing to the market. Otherwise it's just that right, another table and another chair and who needs those things. But I think internally within Tangram Interiors, we really are a super authentic organization. Anyone can walk up to my desk at any point in time. I don't work in a private office. None of us do. None of the executive leadership ever work in private offices, and really in all of our six offices, the only one that has a private office is the human resource team so that they can have the privacy of lockability. Past that I mean. Really there's no one within the organization that can't have an idea that could be implemented today. I think that's kind of the greatness of any organization is when you have that open door policy. Because there's not a door, they're never one right. It's like if you have an idea and it's something that is helpful to the progress of the organization, by all means, and I think those are things that we reward throughout the year. I mean, we have different focuses and different events, but we have a fact award. So we really want people to be focused, accountable, we want them to be strong culture, advocates that show strong teamwork and strong trust, and those are things that we are pillars of our success on a regular, daily basis, and when we talk about them and we look for those in employees, it is that we expect them to come up with ideas in their team meetings and we expect them to have the trust within themselves and the trust within us to bring those new ideas to us for implementation. So, honestly, I think this whole industry and this whole world is about change and choice and honesty. Like have an idea, let's chat. Chris: Yeah, let's talk about it, so OK. So you're touching on culture, one of my favorite topics. Amber: Mind you. Chris: So let's you know a couple, you know at least a couple of questions on that. For you, you know, one is I always ask all guests kind of, how would you define your culture? And I think for you a corollary to that is how has it migrated east from California to Texas, you know, have you maintained the culture that was built in the roots in California to the Texas office, or has there been some adaption to this new office in a new state, in a new city? Amber: Such good questions. Cultures is one of my favorite topics as well. So in California one of my roles there was on boarding all of the new hires and I think for me that was an opportunity to instill in them the culture that I found at Taingram and I really found it important that as they kind of graduated out of one on one training with me that they moved into the next portion of their organ, of their role in the organization. Really understanding the culture was the basis of it all, the foundation of who we were as a company, and so I think for me it was really hard to leave behind the culture that I feel like I was such a huge part of building in California. In fact, I remember standing in front of everyone here in Texas holding this piece of paper as we were about to like tell them that we just acquired their company, and I was so nervous and I think back now and it's like so funny to think that I was nervous in front of those people but because I didn't know what kind of culture I was walking into and I think it matters so much. So the longest way possible of answering that question is that I brought that culture with me and I spent the last two years trying to foster it here, and I would tell you that we absolutely are the same company in Texas that we are in California because of those kind of cross pollinations and making sure that we've got people flying back and forth from both locations and executive leadership, as well as like marketing and different sales people, and I think that we all have a lot to learn from one another that if we treat each other as like a bench for both cities as opposed to Dallas, tangram and California Tangram, just Tangram continue to have that culture be you know, exemplified in all of our offices. Chris: You really want you branch. I guess it could happen in one office. Amber: That's the thing, yeah. Chris: Yeah Well, once you branch out to more than one office, you really can't have the us versus them or you have a culture. It's just not a healthy one, Right? I mean yeah. Amber: Yeah, so it's actually. It's interesting we just did a company survey and we just got the results back and read them off to the whole organization verbatim for the way that they answered the questions with all of the comments and feedback, and it was such a delight to be able to read the results back to the organization and have results be in like the high 80s for how they felt about our culture and the way that we run our company and how they feel comfortable talking to us. Those are astronomically high percentages. I mean it felt like we should all clap. You know clap because genuinely that's not me or any of the other leadership, that is every single human being that wakes up and says they are part of 10 year materials every day. Chris: We all make sure Very impressive. I mean because you're right, I'm going to be proud of and usually yeah, okay. So we talked about this a little bit before we started recording. I'm going to ask you now so you can tell the story behind you are words to say start right, to finish right. Is that some type of pillar within the company? Or you know how is that? It's not there by accident, right? Amber: No, it's not. And I mean, I think with anything good goes planning, goes research. You know, I think we have a really great network in the people that we work with, and with every opportunity that hits the street, there's a way to go about doing it. That's the strong way, the smart way, that it starts with strategy, and so for us it's like you know, you can send off six emails while you're sitting in a meeting talking about a possible opportunity, or you can spend 10 minutes doing some research and figuring out who might be the warmest opportunity or person to connect. You do that right. There's ways to go about things. So I think, from an organizational standpoint, we look at it like take the time to do your research, to be prepared to show up and make sure that you earn the opportunity to win the business, versus just showing up, which is sometimes easier to do. Chris: Well, you mean it's always easier, or seems easier, to take the shortcut. But you're right being thorough and showing up there, there's no substitute for that. Amber: Sounds easier, until they ask you a question and you're like I don't even know what this company does. Chris: Yeah. Amber: And then you feel silly for an hour and a half in front of that person in person. Like I would rather do the research, find a computer to be prepared to not sound silly. Chris: So do you do some training around that? How do you instill that into your new hires? Amber: Yeah. So I mean I think like the true answer is that we're really good at using our AI and our tools that we have. There may be a little bit big brothery, but I think that there's a mentor that we have within our organization that always says that our network is equal to our network, or, sorry, our network is equal to our network. And it's true. We know so many people within the 400 people that work at Tangeram that there's no reason that we shouldn't be able to have a warm introduction to people that are chasing business in our markets, Whether that's our partners, whether those are GCs or those are, like you know, architect or design firms that we work with. There's got to be somebody that can make a warm introduction rather than you just like going and knocking on someone's door. Nobody likes that. Chris: Yeah. Amber: And so, I think, just be smart, use the tools that we have and use the resources that we have and be thoughtful and it you know we all get cold calls every day. What do you do with most of them? Ignore, yeah, you can tell what the difference is. So like, do you want to be the one that gets ignored, or how do you go about doing it a little bit differently, and it's generally because someone sends you an email that said you know, chris, you should meet Amber. Chris: That's actually how this happened, right? Someone sent an email and said right, so there's. So you know that you touch on a topic that I do like to talk about it, because there's there's always learning. So what do y'all do at Tangram to try to, you know, build and maintain these important relationships with customers, with your partners, with your stakeholders? I mean, they're all so important. So what are some of the things that y'all maybe talk about and try to put into practice to make sure you're building and maintaining those relationships? Amber: Yeah, good, I mean, I think there's kind of there's a million different ways, but I think there's three kind of pillars, if you were to boil it down. One, it's the social touch. Right, let's have a drink, let's go to dinner, let's just get to know each other as people because, truthfully, everybody wants to hang out and do business with people that they know right. Chris: People know what they like, that they like and then, ultimately, they've learned to trust right, exactly right. Amber: So, but the flip of that and it's a double edged sword is that nobody likes to do business with someone that goes out and has a bunch of drinks and doesn't wake up the next day Like no one wants to do business with the party animal either, right? So we say that when you're doing your social touches and you're entertaining and you're getting to know someone as a human being, then you also need to follow that up with. You know, research, information, like what are you doing to add value to what they're doing in their life or their job? And so for us, the ability to bring what other organizations are doing to the table for other companies that are in like situations is a huge benefit for us. So maybe you're a I don't know a science, I don't know. Let me think of something good. Maybe you're in the industry entertaining industry and you are trying to figure out what to do with your new space. Well, we've got five other companies that are in the same industry. So we'll pull together a round table and you guys can talk amongst yourselves about how you, what you're doing to bring people back or what you're doing. That's a little bit different. So I think it's utilizing our resources. It also helps to be able to prove that we've got some customers in that market or that industry right, that vertical, and we know what we're doing in that vertical. Let's bring those people together. So it's again, it's utilizing our network to really help teach each other and in doing that you become a trusted advisor. I think that's it, and consistency, right, just showing that over and over again and not when there's work. Just to say happy birthday, or I thought about you. How's your Tuesday going? Chris: Yeah, be genuine. Amber: The thing that we all want right that they say no one checks in on the strong people Like. Sometimes it's nice to just get a message that says hope, you have a great day. So I mean, I think that's the simplest way of just being human and authentic, but it is so underplayed in this world. Chris: Sad but true. So let's go back to, maybe, the office space. Yeah, I think there's obviously so much that's been discussed from the, you know, the work remote hybrid. Now you start seeing companies are mandating back in the office, so maybe you can talk some about what are some of the trends that you're seeing in, you know, in office space design concept, etc. That companies are asking for or coming to you with to try to create that environment. As you said earlier, that will make it compelling for someone to leave home to be back in the office. Amber: Yeah, I mean I would say number one there there's a lot less private offices that there used to be. If there are private offices, they're on the interior core of the building so that the light can be exposing to all of the stations and the other employees throughout the office space. We're seeing a lot of greenery being added to spaces and lots of areas that should make you feel like you have choice around where you work. So lots, a lot of maybe two employees to one desk type of environments, less dedicated desks so that you can walk in and say you know, today I want to work over in this corner in this little nook, or today I want to work at this desk. Those are the kinds of things that we're seeing a lot of. I think every single area has so much technology that we might have also started forgetting about the analog just whiteboard right. The ability to just pick up and just brainstorm versus having to create a flow chart on a PowerPoint right. So one doesn't cancel out the other. The need for both is still there, and so I think, when you're talking about these kinds of different spaces, when you get to the office it's like are there team breakout rooms that maybe I have whiteboards and monitors and desks that move around and I can set it up for my team for the week and then set it up for another team the next week. So just lots of things that are mobile and allow for the most amount of spaces to work harder than just with one purpose. Chris: Okay, yeah, so just kind of the flexibility. Amber: Massive right now flexibility and technology that's on casters, so it's also mobile right so everything is moving and I think part of that is realizing that, like that, when COVID hit and everything was fixed, it was like how are we going to rearrange, you know, when things then automatically went to casters and it was like we can move around wherever so that you really can't allow yourself to set up for the day the best that works for your goal, for the day at work. Chris: I like that. So I'm going to kind of change subjects a little bit. Amber: Would you like that though? Like, would you like if you didn't have to go into your office? Like, would you feel comfortable working out into the open floor plan? Because you just said you guys all go into your private offices when you get there and but you like having the doors open. If you found yourself in an open environment, do you think it would change the way that you work? Chris: I don't know. It's a great day. I like, well, see this one. I like coming into the office, I like the flexibility of, you know, working remote when it makes sense or when I can, and like to your point, there are some days when, at least given what I do, I get lots of interruptions throughout the day and if I need to not be interrupted, you know I may not come to the office to, so I can focus for four or five hours or whatnot. Amber: Isn't that interesting. And it's so funny because I don't know that I would have said that five years ago. Like if I have a focus day, I'm going to stay home. Chris: Yeah. Amber: Also to think about that, like, what it works for you might not work for the 30 year old mom. Right, they need five hours to focus. They can't do that at home, they're going straight to the office, right, and I have. Chris: We have some young mothers here that will tell you. They come to the office and please don't make me go home to get work done. The other thing that I'll say to you as an aside, that it is part of the younger generation which, unfortunately, I guess I'm not but earbuds while they work, listening not just to music, but they'll be listening to crime podcast or things, and I'm like how are you doing that and still focusing on what you're doing? I, you know, I don't know. Amber: Outwild. Yeah, so I think that's funny. We learned that while we were all in the same storm we were all in very different boats. Right, what your boat was and the size of your boat at home was very different than other people's with kids and talking to people's with kids and toddlers and kindergarten, and yeah, I got to the office and was like, oh, I want to drink hot coffee here in silence. This is heaven. But yeah, the micro or the multitasking and getting a lot of stuff done, it's interesting when we used to see the head, the earbuds that were more like hey, this is my cue to say that I'm doing heads down, quiet work, so don't interrupt me. I'm doing some furniture pieces that allow for you to like kind of pull out and it's a storage piece, but it basically, when it's out, it's the equivalent of your buds and like don't, I'm working, I'm in heads down road right now. For those of us that don't have the private office ability to shut the door. Chris: I think you know to you're asking about our space and it's hard because when we're not, that I mean everyone up here is kind of in a cone of confidentiality with our clients, business. But to be in a, you know, in a private, close space, to be able to have a conversation without a bunch of other people in open space, is, you know, kind of what works in our environment, in our industry related to law. Yeah, yeah, and the and I, you know I would work remote even before Kobe hit, you know, because it's just the nature of what I do and it's what I do and the demands. But I do believe the flexibility is a good thing. We also think we work and what we do, and it may be true for you, when we can collaborate together and, like you said, get on a whiteboard and actually brainstorm something together, you just can't do that on video. And the other thing that I know you're aware of that there's lots of been written you lose that social, there's a social piece that happens kind of before or after in between meetings. That when you're on scheduled zoom and you're going to the next and next, you lose. And that's to me really where culture gets built. Amber: Yes, it's the how is your weekend, which sometimes is grading, because it's small talk, but then it's like then learning that they like X and oh, me too, and right, and it creates a whole another conversation which then leads to brainstorming. And right, I mean like the Googles of the world created a 15 minute line on purpose in their cafeteria so that people from different buildings across the campus would cross pollinate intentionally while they waited for their food. It's exactly the same idea. It's like how do I get these people to stop and talk to other people within the office If they're never here? How do they create a relationship? There is no culture created on a web camera. Right, there's not just a bunch of people themselves in the camera. Chris: That's right. You're distracted by backgrounds and or or I was literally conducting an interview earlier this week via video and the person that was interviewing for the position had a dog barking and finally it was like it has to be, everyone else is on mute, right and but they didn't finally like 20 minutes in. They finally said you know, I'm sorry, my dog, but I was like, oh my gosh. Amber: I would be so mortified. I had a very awkward one early on where there was a naked moment. We'll leave it at that. And yeah, it's been a wild ride. These zoom backgrounds and so, anyway, blurring is best, if nothing else is the lesson. Chris: So let me talk a little bit about you and what the question is kind of you as a leader, how would you describe your leadership style? Let's say this as a today, but how has that evolved? Because I know where you are today is probably not where you were five plus years ago, because we all evolve as we go. Amber: Yeah, I try to be super authentic. I try to be the boss I always wanted to be, which I think if you do it like that, then it kind of keeps you human. I never try to ask anyone to do something that I wouldn't be willing to stay and do with them, and I think that comes with the history of starting in this business and working my way through it, so that there's not really any job here that I don't know how to help with. But I think the ability to know that I'm not just kind of hollowing down from the mountain top and willing to like roll up my sleeves and do it with you Gosh, how have they changed? I think that before I would have had things I would have wanted to say and I would have thought long and hard about how to say them, and I think over the years I've learned that rapid, radical honesty is play. So rather than spending a week and a half trying to come up with the exact way that I might say something that wouldn't offend someone and then dredge it all back up again, I'd rather just address it, talk about it. Hey, this didn't feel right. A better way to do that might have been this had this you know effect and you might not have realized that when you were doing it. Here's a different way. I think if you can address those things instantaneously, even though it might be a little raw in the moment, I think that for me that is really allowed for there to be a lot of growth and honesty in my relationships for people that work with me. Chris: I like that. Amber: And that statement right there people that work with me. That's the other piece the people that work with me. I think something happens when you get into a certain leadership place where you're like the people that work for me and I will never be that leader the people that work with me. Chris: It's a team mentality 100%. I think that's a very it may sound subtle to some, but I think it's a very big distinction and how your mindset is. If you could, if you approach it with the we versus the I and actually in a genuine way, that will your, the people you work with will feel that and sense that, and I think the way they respond to you is exponentially better. Amber: Yeah, you know it's funny because I had a conversation with a colleague recently that said you know, you might be too close to some of the people on your team. And it was funny because in the same way that I'll take the rat, I'll give the radical instant criticism. You have to be able to receive it as well. And I think I took it the other way. I swung the pendulum so hard and I cut all of these really strong relationships that I had made in a business way and kind of turned them into friends and started to try to draw this line. And it took me about six months to realize that I was very sad without those people in my world and I wanted to open back up again and be the person that I had been before. So back to the leadership piece. I think it's important for me to say that while I'm also willing to receive feedback, I'm also not willing to accept it all as fact. Good, that's all of it is stuff that you have to be able to process through and realize what you want to keep and what you want to discard, and then what you want to implement right. And so for me, I tried it and it didn't work and it was like nope, I'm going to go back to this other way. And I think that is what growth is is the willingness to change and change back. Chris: Sure, and I think, being self aware right Absolutely. I think that's that can apply in so many ways. I think to the willingness to try something different, the willingness to be honest about it, whether it's working or not, and it's okay as an example, it's okay. Well, that decision ended up not being right, so let's go back. Amber: For me. Right, it didn't work for me and that's good that it works for others. I think I appreciate that boundary. For other people it's. That kind of work life balance is a funny it's a funny conversation. For me I think that it's a joke, frankly, like some days we spend 90% of our effort and energy in the office and we only have 10% left at home. Sometimes it's like I can give 50 feet and you know it's not an issue. Some days I have got to deal with my familial obligations and it's going to maybe only be a 25 day for the work life and the business life is going to get the rest of it and I think that when you work yourself into an organization that you're happy and comfortable with, that, it allows for me as a leader to have that type of balance, but it also allows for me to provide and allow that type of balance to the people that work with us. Chris: Yes, but we can do a whole episode on work the myth of work life balance. You know it's to me the word balance is probably the worst word you could use for that. I think it's work life integration. Amber: Exactly. Chris: Yeah, it's a way you know there's no you know, and that it all changes depending on your stage of life as well. We used to have work-life balance in our core values. We changed that because what we realized is that's not really a corporate culture, it's more of a personal value or culture, right, because it depends on life. If you're in your late 20s versus your late 40s, your world is different and the way you balance things is going to be very different. Amber: Greatly different. It's so ironic that you say that we have. We used to have some meetings with new hires where we would tell them you know, this is kind of what's been working for their lives, some of the upper leadership and management and early on those 20-somethings we're hearing, if you just make all of your work friends, your own friends, then you'll be fine, which, they heard. Lose your friends because we're going to take over your life, right, and it's like that's not what we're saying. What we actually mean is that you will find a balance there where you do genuinely enjoy hanging out with people that you work with or people that you do business with, and you will find a balance in that and that's a little bit of the integration, but also that you'll be able to give and take where and when you need throughout the day and week. So yeah, it's a. The word balance, I just think in general, is hilarious. It's a funny word, but I do think it's great that we all keep trying. Chris: Well, that's the point, right. As you said, every day's a little different. Do you find the way to make it work and integrate both? And so, yeah, some days are 90 work, 10 families, some are 90 family, 10 work and everything in between. Amber: Yeah, it's funny Brené Brown talks about like in marriage it's not 50, 50,. Like she walks in at home and is like I got 70 today and he's like cool, I got your other 30. And it works like that and I feel like that very much in the office and I think if, if we could all just be honest and stop calling these workplaces families right. Like this is not our family. These are the company that we work for and we enjoy very much the people that we work with, but we all have families at home and you know it's important that they feel as much love as the people that we enjoy working with on a regular basis. And you know it's going to wave and it's going to ebb and flow, but I think that's part of what life is. Chris: That's so true. Okay, this has been really great conversation. I love the hearing in which all are doing to help companies you know, move forward, be innovative in their space. I want to turn now the last minute or so. Just some fun stuff to know about you. So tell us what was your first job. Amber: I ditched school at 14 to go get lunch at Subway and I left with a job. Chris: So, but instead of ordering a sandwich, you got behind the counter. Amber: I ate my sandwich. And then that on car sued offered me a job and I left at 14 as a Subway sandwich artist. My mom was not very pleased that she had to drive me to and from the subway on multiple times a week, but it was a great first job. I loved it. Chris: Okay, did you stay with school? Amber: Yeah, oh, of course yes. No it was an after school job. Chris: I got you. I got you All right. So you're new to Texas. But I ask all my guests do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Amber: Oh my gosh, I can't even say Tex-Mex, like I feel like I need there to be Mexican food here. So we're just going to default to barbecue, for sure, absolutely. Chris: So you have not adjusted to Tex-Mex. Amber: You know what? I'm 40 years, a Californian, and I don't know that I ever will. I was laughing because they were doing the best tacos in Texas. A little blurb the other day on the news and I was like they're in the wrong state for the best taco competition. This is not where they live, but I'm sorry, I do love your eyes as barbecue. Chris: That's okay. That's okay, we'll forgive you. We will agree to disagree on that. Amber: Okay, all right, you have bomb queso, though I'll give you that. Chris: Okay, we'll meet you, you all, don't have queso in California. Amber: Not like you guys do. You have it at like every Mexican restaurant. It's not a thing there really, oh sure. Chris: I mean, I think the first real food both of my daughters had like at a week old was queso. Amber: We started early. Chris: Yeah, so okay, If you could take a 30-day sabbatical, what would you? Where would you go? What would you do? Amber: Ooh, that's an excellent question. I feel like I would probably go just get an Airbnb in France and just spend a couple of weeks just living life there, cruising around on the bike, traveling with my family, working, painting, just being. I think we spend so much time following a calendar. I would love to just kind of float and see what happens when we're creative without the schedule. Chris: That's where. Amber: I come from and we don't do enough of it. Chris: Sadly, you're right, Amber. This has been awesome. It's been a pleasure, you know, hearing your story, tangram story. Thank you for all the insights you've provided and just wish all the best of luck as you grow your business here in Texas. Amber: Thank you so much, chris, we appreciate it. Chris: All right, take care.

Today, on the Path to Well-Being in Law podcast, co-hosts Bree and Chris hear from Helen Wan, a lawyer and the author of the 2013 novel, The Partner Track, which just launched as a new TV series on Netflix. On this episode, Helen discusses her journey towards writing her novel, how to get other stories told, and how getting senior leadership to show up for important discussions on inclusiveness and equity can shift a firm's culture from one of competition to one of community. Transcript:  CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends. Welcome to the Path To Well-Being In Law Podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I am joined again by my great co-host, Bree Buchanan. My name is Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS. Bree, I'm pretty excited about our guest today. How about you? BREE BUCHANAN: I know. We've got somebody who's really famous. CHRIS: That's right. That's right. It's always great to bring... I think it's fair to say that the legal profession in general, perceptions of it can be driven by media, television, movies, books. And I think that we are super excited to have a guest today that is really kind of sharing her novel was the basis for a Netflix series that is pretty popular right now. And so our guest today is Helen Wan. And Bree, if you could quickly talk a little bit about Helen and who she is. BREE: Absolutely. I would love to. And Chris, when you were talking about the history of portrayal of law in the media, I first thought of Legally Blonde. CHRIS: Yeah, Yeah. I always think of L.A. Law, right? Again, these are not oftentimes real perceptions of the legal profession, but the reality is people, particularly folks considering law school and other things, I think it does have, even going back to the old Perry Mason days. I think it does actually have folks look at the law through the lens, and I think the media creates some of that lens. So that's why I think this will be a really fun conversation, particularly given Helen's, the subject matter that she tackled based upon her own personal experience. BREE: I know, and I think of Helen creating this lens through which so many up-and-coming law students may see the profession. So enough about you, me, Chris. Let me talk about Helen. Helen Wan is an author and a lawyer and a graduate of Amherst College and the University of Virginia School of Law. She's the author of the 2013 novel, the Partner Track, which just launched as a new TV series on Netflix. Incredibly exciting. It's the story of an Asian American woman and her law colleagues as they compete in the culture of a prestigious global law firm. The book is taught in colleges and law schools and first-year seminars and ethics courses, and is used by law firms and companies in dialogues about DEI. And the book is being translated into several languages, including Turkish. I just think that's so interesting that partner track began as subway scribblings on a legal pad when Helen was a first-year associate at a large New York law firm. She writes primarily about how race, gender, socioeconomic, class, and culture impact am ambition in our pursuit of happiness, and I will add wellbeing. And Helen has written for the Washington Post. In fact, she has appeared on the cover of the Washington Post magazine, CNN.com, The Daily Beast and The Huffington Post among others. Before becoming a writer, Helen practiced media and intellectual property law in New York, both at law firms and as an in-house council. At the time, Inc. Division of Time Warner, Inc., A&E television networks and the Hachette Book Group USA. You could follow her on Twitter, @HelenWan1, the number one, and visit her website, at HelenWan.com. Helen, we will now let you speak. How are you? Welcome to the podcast. HELEN WAN: Hello. Thank you both for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here. BREE: Yeah, it's so great. And so Helen, I'm going to jump in and ask you just the question that we really like to start off our podcast, to take us into a place that is personal and just in our background and where we come from and how we see the world. So tell us about what are the experiences in your life that made you care about and be, I would say, even passionate about the wellbeing of those and the legal profession, particularly those from a diverse background? HELEN WAN: Sure. Well, just by way of a little background about how I even came to law school, I was born in California, but raised on the East Coast. And I went, went to undergrad in Massachusetts and then I went directly to law school. And it wasn't based on any sort of burning desire to be Perry Mason that I went directly to law school. It really was that when I was a senior trying to decide on a career path. I grew up the eldest child of first-generation Chinese American immigrants. And so there were certain kind of family-approved or culturally or society-approved careers such as law, medicine, engineering, finance, accounting. I was trying to decide on a career path and I thought, well, what is it that I'm passionate about? And it was words, working with words. And so truly, the calculus was not much more complicated than that. It was really kind of like, okay, well out of this group of careers, well, lawyers work with words. BREE: Yeah. Right. HELEN WAN: I guess, great. So I suppose, let me try the law school, the legal profession path. And I went and took the LSAT and I did well enough, I got into law schools and I picked the one where I knew I was going to get a good legal education, plus in-state tuition, because I had grown up in the northern Virginia suburbs. So there I was in law school. And then my first job out of law school was literally like Ingrid, the protagonist of the Partner Track, my first job was in the corporate mergers and acquisitions department at a large law firm in New York City. CHRIS: And Helen, obviously, I think a lot of law students, when you make that jump into that first career position, what'd you think? Did you like it? Did you detest it? Talk about your emotional mindset as you went and took that leap. HELEN WAN: Sure. So when I first landed at that firm, I truly didn't know what to expect. To be perfectly honest, I didn't have any specific expectations for that first job. But when I got there, I realized, "Oh wow." I might as well have landed on the moon because it was such a, to me at least as a young freshly minted lawyer to have landed there, it just felt like such an alien culture to me. And at that point in time, now, obviously, just to date myself, it's been decades and decades obviously since I have been in law school. But I felt like law school did not really prepare people for the cultural entry into your first law job. BREE: Right, right. HELEN WAN: Everyone there obviously had the academic goods, otherwise you're just not going to be at a place like that. But on top of that, there needed to be this extra kind of familiarity or knowledge of how the game was played, what rules really applied, and what rules nobody followed. And I just kind of felt like I didn't have the decoder ring. I felt like everyone else did. Somehow I was absent the day they passed them out. BREE: Helen, can you give some examples of that? Anything? HELEN WAN: Just the very, very first weeks we were there, they had us attend a very thorough, well-executed and beautiful orientation for the new recruits, for the new associates. And it was in a hotel ballroom. And the person sitting next to me, also, obviously another entering junior lawyer, turned to me and said, he introduced himself with his law school name and that he was on law review and that he hoped to, in three years, have done X and, in six years time have done Y. And then had everything all mapped out, his whole career plan. And I just thought to myself, oh wow, I just kind of want to get through this orientation week. He turned to me and he said, "Well, what about you? Where to you see yourself in five, 10 years from now?" And I said, "I just want to have found meaningful work and be pretty satisfied with where I am with my career and family, or what other things that I've chosen to do in life." And he said, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm in it to win it." He said to me, "Well, I'm in it to win it." BREE: I know that guy. I think we all know that guy. HELEN WAN: Oh, Bree, you know him as well? Oh, okay. It's a small world. And he said it totally unironically, totally unironically. I actually am still in touch with him, and he is a partner now. He's a senior partner. BREE: Of course. CHRIS: There you go. HELEN WAN: So it worked. BREE: Oh my gosh. Well, tell us about your book, Partner Track. HELEN WAN: So my novel, the Partner Track, which I think as you mentioned, was originally published back in 2013. It's been very interesting and I feel very fortunate that it's kind of gotten, I guess, fresh life breathed into it now, almost a decade later. I think, because there's more of a cultural lens focused on these topics, on these DEI topics now. It's timely. But I started writing the book because while I was working these 80-hour work weeks and I just needed sort of a creative outlet. And I literally started putting literal pen to paper, on paper, and I would journal about these observations and patterns that I was seeing, like who was sitting with whom in the corporate cafeteria, in the law firm lunchroom, who was being invited along on certain client pitch meetings and who was not, who was finding themselves spending good quality bonding time with certain mentors or sponsors, and who was not getting that kind of face time. So all of those kinds of things I began writing down as little sketches. And then when I found that I had a critical mass of sketches and pages, and I started showing them to a group of trusted friends, like confidants, who by the way, were not all lawyers, they were working all different kinds of industries and roles. But they had faced similar experiences in their jobs. I shared some of those pages. And then people, my friends responded like, "Nobody's telling these stories. No one's talking about these issues. Why don't you try to get some of them published?" And I had no idea how to go about getting something published. So I literally went to the bookstore and got one of those, how do you get a first book published for Dummies type books? And literally, I followed those rules and it kind of worked. BREE: That's great. I love it. CHRIS: And Helen, can you, just for our listeners who have not read the book or seen the series yet, can you just set the storyline of at what point is the book focused on? And just kind of set the table a little bit for the setup of the book. HELEN WAN: Sure. Yeah, happy to. In a nutshell, the novel follows a young Chinese American junior associate who is trying to make partner at a very, very large and prestigious and rather traditional global law firm in the New York office. And it follows not only her, although it focuses primarily on her POV, but it also focuses on the experiences of her cohort, that she's up against, competing against for partner. And what I was trying to accomplish with my novel was... Well, just personally as a reader, I love really tight ensemble cast-type novels and movies myself that talk about group dynamics in a tense kind of pressure cooker-type environment. And so that was what I was trying to bring across with my book. And I just wanted to show an underrepresented perspective on navigating that kind of corporate culture. BREE: Yeah. So this podcast, we really have spent our, I guess, 25 episodes plus, Chris, and counting on amplifying the voices of those in the wellbeing and law space. And your book, which is now a TV show, really has added to that conversation. So I'm wondering if Helen, you could have 30 minutes in a room with law firm leadership, maybe you could throw in some of the leadership from the firm you worked for, I don't know, and could talk to them about what you think they should do differently, what would you say? HELEN WAN: Well, I actually have been pretty encouraged by the evolution in the, I guess decade, since initial publication of the book until now, with the launch of the TV series, because in that intervening time, I've been lucky enough to have spoken with and seen the behind the scenes DEI strategies at a lot of different legal employers, primarily law firms. But a lot of other places too, like in-house legal departments or even the academic world. And there definitely is a lot of progress left to be made, but at least progress is being made, I think. Because when the book was first published in 2013, and I was speaking to audiences of lawyers and law students, a lot of times at a firm, it would be a beautiful, gorgeous, gorgeous cocktail party and no senior management in attendance. And hey, we're talking about diversity in the legal profession here. It would be a whole bunch of summer associates, which is great, but not a lot of visibility with the firm senior leadership. Nowadays, I think that I truly have seen a change in that way. So I see more firms really kind of putting their money where their mouth is. I have seen firms do things such as, well make it basically mandatory for all senior managers, all partners, to show up for one of these dialogues and discussions about increasing inclusiveness at the firm, the feeling of inclusiveness and equity at the firm. They do use often my book as a teaching text. And I've seen some particularly just, well, really carefully planned events where the firm even has prepared a list of discussion questions and breakout sessions and breakout groups, et cetera, that are pretty thoughtful. And the discussion turns into a really fairly meaningful one. I am encouraged by the changes that I have seen. BREE: And it seems like that kind of tracks I'm thinking in just to the general wellbeing space in that what we're seeing now is that it's become a part of the conversation. HELEN WAN: Yes. BREE: It's a start. You got to start there. You got to get people talking about it and thinking about it. But there's still a long way to go to bring about real change. Absolutely. HELEN WAN: Right. Yes, I totally agree. CHRIS: And Helen, one of the things that I think is really powerful about what you've written about, and now what the big screen is, is the perspective of associates. Because we all can envision a scenario in which, let's just call it the power structure is not tilting in your favor, which necessarily has folks competing against others in ways that sometimes are, let's just be honest, unhealthy, and then a lack of a willingness or a wherewithal to speak loudly when there are things that are unhealthy going on within the firm for stigma reasons and otherwise. And so I just think one of the things that's really interesting, and I think one of the areas of wellbeing that I think there's an associate community out there that probably really empathizes with the plight that both, you write about you went through, and just that it certainly feels like there's more on-ramps to be able to vocalize challenges that you're facing. But let's face it, 20 years ago that might not have actually been the case and actually might have been more summarily frowned upon. HELEN WAN: Yeah, absolutely. That is, I think, one of the reasons why I started my little journal scribblings to and from work, is that I was observing the same patterns happen in terms of really talented people, really talented lawyers taking themselves off the vine very early on. And then I'd ask them or have some private candid conversations with them, everyone essentially said more or less the same thing, which was, "Oh, well I could look around." And I could see that my career was not going to go smoothly here in the same way that X, Y, Z perhaps. CHRIS: And then obviously, you add gender issues and diversity issues into the mix. And boy, I just think that the story and the nature of it with kind of historical cultures in the legal profession... What you're bringing and what you're raising in terms of the consciousness and the awareness of some of these real issues that continue today, I think is a really powerful element of what will come out of your work. Hey, let's take a quick break here, hear from one of our sponsors and come back and talk a little bit more about the show and the book. Sponsor Announcer: Meet Vera, your firm's virtual ethics risk assessment guide. Developed by ALPS, Vera's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake, to calendaring, to cybersecurity and more. Vera: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Sponsor Announcer: Generous and discrete, Vera is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS, to help firms like yours be their best. Visit Vera at alpsinsurance.com/Vera. BREE: Welcome back everybody to the Well-Being In Law Podcast. And today we have author Helen Wan, who wrote the book Partner Track in 2013, and has now been turned into a television show that was just recently released, because I started to watch it and I love it, Helen, it was the beginning I think, of August 2022. But what was it like to work on turning that book and to a TV show? HELEN WAN: Truly, it's been a very thrilling ride. Because I just never, never, never, over two decades ago when I began writing the book, I never would've expected that the stars would align in this way and that one day I would be walking, literally would be able to be walking through Times Square in Manhattan and look up and see the Partner Track featured on the big old gigantic Netflix digital billboard. BREE: Helen, that gave me chills. HELEN WAN: Yeah, it really did. It really did, Bree. I stood there and I just stood there for a couple minutes. It just was amazing because I just stood there and watched the loop several times. So there's Ozark, Stranger Things, Squid Game and Partner Track. I was like, "Wow. Okay." BREE: Oh my gosh, I wish I could have seen a film of that, of you seeing that. CHRIS: What's been the biggest surprise to you since the launch? And obviously, Netflix has a worldwide audience. And so I got to imagine that quite a few folks have come out of your history and your background to reach back out to you. And I'm just kind of curious on what the biggest surprise was? HELEN WAN: Yeah, you kind of hit the nail on the head. I have been lucky enough to be hearing from so many old dear friends and colleagues and I heard from my high school prom date. I heard from my prom date, I heard from my a middle school English teacher. And it's just been pretty amazing. Who knew so many people read Variety or Hollywood Reporter. BREE: Yeah. HELEN WAN: It's been amazing. And the other, probably the best and happiest surprise for me has been just the tremendously positive and enthusiastic support that the show has gotten. But not just from lawyers or groups of law students or even groups of women lawyers or Asian American lawyers or what have you, no particular this community or that community or that community. Just people in general just from all quarters. And that has been just really positive and encouraging for me to see. BREE: No kidding. So Helen, looking back, now that you have the benefit of being able to deploy hindsight, a 20/20 vision, what would you have done differently? What do you wish that you had known when you started? What was the decoder? [inaudible 00:26:54]. HELEN WAN: Now that I'm a lot older and a little bit wiser, I would like to think... I think I just would've walked in there with more self-confidence, to be honest. I think that I would've walked into not just that particular law firm role, but every job that I have helped since with, just with more confidence that I could try to bring my, I know this is kind of a cliche way to say it, but bring my authentic self to work. And if it didn't work, then I would know that, hey, perhaps it's time to seek out someplace that perhaps is more where I would feel more included or would feel more valued, or perhaps the values of that particular workplace would be more aligned with my own. So I think that I would've just walked in with more confidence and not hold the belief that, hey, okay, what a legal employer wants is someone who just lives, breathes the law 24/7. Because that's not true. What they want is, I think, happy people who are pleasant to be around. I wish I had come to that conclusion sooner because I think that I would've wasted less time kind of spinning my wheels. BREE: Yeah. And being able to have the belief that when you walk into that space, you deserve to be there. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. CHRIS: I'm curious, as you reflect on the book, the storyline, and so forth, do you see it as a cautionary tale, an expose, a tutorial? I think you shared in the storylines just a number of, I think, very interesting elements to a journey. Again, with gender, with race, with first-generation elements and even remarking upon the person who's like, "I'm in it to win it." But I'm just curious on how you look at the storyline today versus obviously when you wrote the book almost a decade ago. HELEN WAN: It's funny, I did not think of it as an expose when I was writing. Truly, what I was trying to do when I first began this project, it was just kind of like my creative outlet, my written therapy from a stressful week at work. But then it eventually evolved into a proper story arc and it populated with different, more perspectives and more characters. Truly, I wrote it just as of my creative outlet. It was sort of my way to have well-being in the law. I needed to have a creative outlet, and so that was mine. BREE: Absolutely. And do you have advice for law students or those contemplating a legal career? What could you say to them? HELEN WAN: I think the best advice someone could have given me back when I was trying to embark on my first steps in my legal career would be just to take more time to really ask the savvy questions about the workplace's environment and culture before making any decisions. Because I realized fairly early on when I got to my first law job that, oh, okay, I don't think that this culturally is the right fit for me. Now, that's not to say anything about anybody else's decision because personally, I have very good friends who are senior law partners now and are really good at their jobs and just amazing lawyers. So it's each person. It's person by person, obviously. For me, that was not the right fit culturally. And I think that I would've taken the time to do a little more research, to ask smarter questions, to understand before making any decisions. And also to realize that hey, just because just you can continue grabbing more gold stars, you don't have to. CHRIS: Yeah, I think it's very interesting that one of the things that I makes me optimistic that well-being will continue to become a more prominent conversation topic, particularly in the big law community, is the fact that I think the most talented law students coming out are asking more of the tougher questions on the front end. There used to be, I think again, oh, I really want to get in at that particular firm because that will cement a pathway for me to success. Where generationally now, there's a little bit more of a, I know that I have a lot to offer, but I also am coming at this with more appropriate expectations as to what my work-life balance might look like and are asking those questions as part of the interview process. So it's a two-way hiring street versus kind of a one-way. And if we've gotten there, that I think can be a catalyst to the culture shift that firms, what they value in terms of talent acquisition and talent retention, changes the game quite a bit. And I think that your story and the Partner Track sheds some interesting new light on some of those kind of realistic elements of culture in firms that I think will play out, I think, in very interesting ways in the years to come. HELEN WAN: Yeah, Well thank you for that compliment because yeah, I've been fortunate enough to be speaking with lots of groups of law students and their law profs. And these students are really just asking very wise questions, questions about their future employers. And not just about future employers, but just about the state of the profession generally, or really asking things like, okay, well at this place, what is the partner group makeup? How long did that person take to make a partner? How many partners? And what is the path to partner? Is it clearly laid out? What happens... These are all very savvy questions that I, to be honest, I personally did not even know to ask when I was a 2L or 3L. BREE: Yeah. I think Chris and I both are first generation to go into law. And absolutely, you don't have somebody laying that down for you. You don't know what you're supposed to ask and those questions and things. CHRIS: Yeah. And the waters can obviously be pretty choppy when you don't have perspective and then you come into environments in which, let's just say that the environment can be some welcoming, some not so welcoming and then with undertones that you would've never known before. HELEN WAN: Right, yes. And I will add too though, that sometimes some of these instances where I did not necessarily feel very included in conversations or whatever the circumstance was, I don't feel that it was intentional or necessarily intentional or blatantly racist or sexist or anything. It's what you know, who you know, what is comfortable and familiar to you. And one thing that happened to me, which really made me want to start writing this, was that I was invited, see, I was invited along to a lunch along with some other, my cohort, who had also just entered the firm recently. And it was at a fancy steakhouse-type restaurant. And the conversation turned to sailing and sailing camp. Now, I had never been to sailing camp in my entire life, but apparently everybody else had, or I don't know, but apparently, to me, they all had. So he was talking about, "Oh my gosh. Well okay, I went to this sailing camp. Oh my goodness, do you know," blah, blah, blah. "Yes, we went to summer camp all of the time together and then we went to this academy together before college and law school." So I was like politely trying to listen and trying to get a word in edgewise. And sometimes I would succeed, but then no one was intentionally trying to exclude me from being a part of the conversation, obviously, it's just that I had no way to join that conversation and no one was allowing that foothold into the conversation. And so when I would try to get a word in edgewise, inevitably, the conversation would soon quickly turn back to sailing. And that's when I was like, hey, I'm going to take the legal pad and start writing this stuff down. And decades later, now it's on Netflix though. BREE: There you go. CHRIS: Yeah. Well, so much of what... I know that we did a kind of mini-series on the podcast on the nexus between and the inherent nexus between diversity, equity, inclusion, and this sense of what I think you're getting at, which is also the sense of belonging, right? And sometimes not having the context to feel like you can be part of conversations because you don't have the shared experience. And I just think that's a real element that sometimes has people feeling like they're just, maybe this isn't my place. And that maybe not be intentional, but the reality is that there are elements to that and they're real. HELEN WAN: Right. Yes, absolutely. CHRIS: Well, Helen, this was a great podcast and I appreciate, we had a chance to meet back in August in Chicago. Helen was the keynote speaker in front of the National Conference of Women's Bar Associations, where I had a chance to meet her before the series dropped. And I could immediately tell that Helen has a passion for seeing people want to ultimately find professional satisfaction in the practice of law. And again, her willingness to be able to, I think, identify some of the real issues that associates face in their journey in the legal profession, I think will kind of continue to serve as an important part of the well-being conversation moving forward. So Helen, thank you so much for joining us and we continue to want to incorporate you into well-being activities with the Institute for Well-Being in Law, and thanks for sharing your experience. BREE: Absolutely. Thank you. HELEN WAN: Thank you both so much for inviting me today. It was a pleasure. CHRIS: All right, we will be back in a couple weeks with the next podcast. And until then, be well out there friends.  

Steph has an update and a question wrapped into one about the work that is being done to migrate the Test::Unit test over to RSpec. Chris got to do something exciting this week using dry-monads. Success or failure? This episode is brought to you by BuildPulse (https://buildpulse.io/bikeshed). Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. Bartender (https://www.macbartender.com/) dry-rb - dry-monads v1.0 - Pattern matching (https://dry-rb.org/gems/dry-monads/1.0/pattern-matching/) alfred-workflows (https://github.com/tupleapp/alfred-workflows/blob/master/scripts/online_users.rb) Raycast (https://www.raycast.com/) ruby-science (https://github.com/thoughtbot/ruby-science) Inertia.js (https://inertiajs.com/) Remix (https://remix.run/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: AD: Flaky tests take the joy out of programming. You push up some code, wait for the tests to run, and the build fails because of a test that has nothing to do with your change. So you click rebuild, and you wait. Again. And you hope you're lucky enough to get a passing build this time. Flaky tests slow everyone down, break your flow, and make things downright miserable. In a perfect world, tests would only break if there's a legitimate problem that would impact production. They'd fail immediately and consistently, not intermittently. But the world's not perfect, and flaky tests will happen, and you don't have time to fix all of them today. So how do you know where to start? BuildPulse automatically detects and tracks your team's flaky tests. Better still, it pinpoints the ones that are disrupting your team the most. With this list of top offenders, you'll know exactly where to focus your effort for maximum impact on making your builds more stable. In fact, the team at Codecademy was able to identify their flakiest tests with BuildPulse in just a few days. By focusing on those tests first, they reduced their flaky builds by more than 68% in less than a month! And you can do the same because BuildPulse integrates with the tools you're already using. It supports all of the major CI systems, including CircleCI, GitHub Actions, Jenkins, and others. And it analyzes test results for all popular test frameworks and programming languages, like RSpec, Jest, Go, pytest, PHPUnit, and more. So stop letting flaky tests slow you down. Start your 14-day free trial of BuildPulse today. To learn more, visit buildpulse.io/bikeshed. That's buildpulse.io/bikeshed. STEPH: What type of bird is the strongest bird? CHRIS: I don't know. STEPH: A crane. [laughter] STEPH: You're welcome. And on that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. [laughter] Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris, I saw a good movie I'd like to tell you about. It was just over the weekend. It's called The Duke, and it's based on a real story. I should ask, have you seen it? Have you heard of this movie called The Duke? CHRIS: I don't think so. STEPH: Okay, cool. It's a true story, and it's based on an individual named Kempton Bunton who then stole a particular portrait, a Goya portrait; if you know your artist, I do not. But he stole a Goya portrait and then essentially held at ransom because he was a big advocate that the BBC News channel should be free for people that are living on a pension or that are war veterans because then they're not able to afford that fee. But then, if you take the BBC channel away from them, it disconnects them from society. And it's a very good movie. I highly recommend it. So I really enjoyed watching that over the weekend. CHRIS: All right. Excellent recommendation. We will, of course, add that to the show notes mostly so that I can find it again later. STEPH: On a more technical note, I have a small update, or it's more of a question. It's an update and a question wrapped into one about the work that is being done to migrate the Test::Unit test over to RSpec. This has been quite a journey that Joël and I have been on for a while now. And we're making progress, but we're realizing that we're spending like 95% of our time in the test setup and porting that over, specifically because we're mapping fixture data over to FactoryBot, and we're just realizing that's really painful. It's taking up a lot of time to do that. And initially, when I realized we were just doing that, we hadn't even really talked about it, but we were moving it over to FactoryBot. I was like, oh, cool. We'll get to delete all these fixtures because there are around 208 files of them. And so that felt like a really good additional accomplishment to migrating the test over. But now that we realize how much time we're spending migrating the data over for that test setup, we've reevaluated, and I shared with Joël in the Slack channel. I was like, crap. I was like, I have a bad idea, and I can't not say it now because it's crossed my mind. And my bad idea was what if we stopped porting over fixtures to FactoryBot and then we just added the fixtures to a directory that RSpec would look so then we can rely on those fixtures? And then that way, we're literally then ideally just copying over from Test::Unit over to RSpec. But it does mean a couple of things. Well, one, it means that we're now running those fixtures at the beginning of RSpec test. We're introducing another pattern of where these tests are already using FactoryBot, but now they have fixtures at the top, and then we won't get to delete the fixtures. So we had a conversation around how to manage and mitigate some of those concerns. And we're still in that exploratory. We're going to test it out and see if this really speeds us up referencing the fixtures. The question that's wrapped up in this is there's something different between how fixtures generate data and how factories generate data. So I've run into this a couple of times now where I moved data over to just call a factory. But then I was hitting these callbacks or after-save-hooks or weird things that were then preventing me from creating the record, even though fixtures was creating them just fine. And then Joël pointed out today that he was running into something similar where there were private methods that were getting called. And there were all sorts of additional code that was getting run with factories versus fixtures. And I don't have an answer. Like, I haven't looked into this. And it's frankly intentional because I was trying hard to not dive into understanding the mechanics. We really want to get through this. But now I'm starting to ponder a little more as to what is different with fixtures and factories? And I liked that factories is running these callbacks; that feels correct. But I'm surprised that fixtures doesn't, or at least that's the experience that I'm having. So there's some funkiness there that I'd like to explore. I'll be honest; I don't know if I'm going to. But if anybody happens to know what that funkiness is or why fixtures and factories are different in that regard, I would be very intrigued because, at some point, I might look into it just because I would like to know. CHRIS: Oh, that is interesting. I have not really worked with fixtures much at all. I've lived a factory life myself, and thus that's where almost all of my experience is. I'm not super surprised if this ends up being the case, like, the idea that fixtures are just some data that gets shoveled into the database directly as opposed to FactoryBot going through the model layer. And so it's sort of like that difference. But I don't know that for certain. That sounds like what this is and makes sense conceptually. But I think this is what you were saying like, that also kind of pushes me more in the direction of factories because it's like, oh, they're now representative. They're using our model layer, where we're defining certain truths. And I don't love callbacks as a mechanism. But if your app has them, then getting data that is representative is useful in tests. Like one of the things I add whenever I'm working with FactoryBot is the FactoryBot lint rake task RSpec thing that basically just says, "Are your factories valid?" which I think is a great baseline to have. Because you may add a migration that adds a default constraint or something like that to the database that suddenly all your factories are invalid, and it's breaking tests, but you don't know it. Like subtly, you change it, and it doesn't actually break a test, but then it's harder later. So that idea of just having more correctness baked in is always nice, especially when it can be automated like that, so definitely a fan of that. But yeah, interested if you do figure out the distinction. I do like your take, though, of like, but also, maybe I just won't figure this out. Maybe this isn't worth figuring it out. Although you were in the interesting spot of, you could just port the fixtures over and then be done and call the larger body of work done. But it's done in sort of a half-complete way, so it's an interesting trade-off space. I'm also interested to hear where you end up on that. STEPH: Yeah, it's a tough trade-off. It's one that we don't feel great about. But then it's also recognizing what's the true value of what we're trying to deliver? And it also comes down to the idea of churn versus complexity. And I feel like we are porting over existing complexity and even adding a smidge, not actual complexity but adding a smidge of indirection in terms that when someone sees this file, they're going to see a mixed-use of fixtures and factories, and that doesn't feel good. And so we've already talked about adding a giant comment above fixtures that just is very honest and says, "Hey, these were ported over. Please don't mimic this. But this is some legacy tests that we have brought over. And we haven't migrated the fixtures over to use factories." And then, in regards to the churn versus complexity, this code isn't likely to get touched like these tests. We really just need them to keep running and keep validating scenarios. But it's not likely that someone's going to come in here and really need to manage these anytime soon. At least, this is what I'm telling myself to make me feel better about it. So there's also that idea of yes, we are porting this over. This is also how they already exist. So if someone did need to manage these tests, then going to Test::Unit, they would have the same experience that they're going to have in RSpec. So that's really the crux of it is that we're not improving that experience. We're just moving it over and then trying to communicate that; yes, we have muddied the waters a little bit by introducing this other pattern. So we're going to find a way to communicate why we've introduced this other pattern, but that way, we can stay focused on actually porting things over to RSpec. As for the factories versus fixtures, I feel like you're onto something in terms of it's just skipping that model layer. And that's why a lot of that functionality isn't getting run. And I do appreciate the accuracy of factories. I'd much rather know is my data representative of real data that can get created in the world? And right now, it feels like some of the fixtures aren't. Like, how they're getting created seemed to bypass really important checks and validations, and that is wrong. That's not what we want to have in our test is, where we're creating data that then the rest of the application can't truly create. But that's another problem for another day. So that's an update on a trade-off that we have made in regards to the testing journey that we are on. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, we got to do something exciting this week. I was working on some code. This is using dry-monads, the dry-rb space. So we have these result objects that we use pretty pervasively throughout the app, and often, we're in a controller. We run one of these command objects. So it's create user, and create user actually encompasses a ton of logic in our app, and that object returns a result. So it's either a success or a failure. And if it's a success, it'll be a success with that new user wrapped up inside of it, or if it's a failure, it's a specific error message. Actually, different structured error messages in different ways, some that would be pushed to the form, some that would be a flash message. There are actually fun, different things that we do there. But in the controller, when we interact with those result objects, typically what we'll do is we'll say result equals create user dot run, (result=createuser.run) and then pass it whatever data it needs. And then on the next line, we'll say results dot either, (results.either), which is a method on these result objects. It's on both the success and failure so you can treat them the same. And then you pass what ends up being a lambda or a stabby proc, or I forget what they are. But one of those sort of inline function type things in Ruby that always feel kind of weird. But you pass one of those, and you actually pass two of them, one for the success case and one for the failure case. And so in the success case, we redirect back with a notice of congratulations, your user was created. Or, in the failure case, we potentially do a flash message of an alert, or we send the errors down, or whatever it ends up being. But it allows us to handle both of those cases. But it's always been syntactically terrible, is how I would describe it. It's, yeah, I'm just going to leave it at that. We are now living in a wonderful, new world. This has been something that I've wanted to try for a while. But I finally realized we're actually on Ruby 2.7, and so thus, we have access to pattern matching in Ruby. So I get to take it for a spin for the first time, realizing that we were already on the correct version. And in particular, dry-monads has a page in their docs specific to how we can take advantage of pattern matching with the result objects that they provide us. There's nothing specific in the library as far as I understand it. This is just them showing a bunch of examples of how one might want to do it if they're working with these result objects. But it's really great because it gives the ability to interact with, you know, success is typically going to be a singular case. There's one success branch to this whole logic, but there are like seven different ways it can fail. And that's the whole idea as to why we use these command objects and the whole Railway Oriented Programming and that whole thing which I have...what is this word? [laughs] I feel like I should know it. It's a positive rant. I have raved; that is how our users kindly pointed that out to us. I have raved about the Railway Oriented Programming that allows us to do. But it's that idea that they're actually, you know, there's one happy path, and there are seven distinct failure modes, seven unhappy paths. And now, using pattern matching, we actually get a really expressive, readable, useful way to destructure each of those distinct failures to work with the particular bits of data that we need. So it was a very happy day, and I got to explore it. This is, again, a feature of Ruby, not a feature of dry-monads. But dry-monads just happens to embrace it and work really well with it. So that was awesome. STEPH: That is awesome. I've seen one or two; I don't know, I've seen a couple of tweets where people are like, yeah, Ruby pattern matching. I haven't found a way to use it. So I'm excited that you just shared a way that you found to use it. I'm also worried what it says about our developer culture that we know the word rant so well, but rave, we always have to reach back into our memory to be like, what's that positive word or something that we like? [laughs] CHRIS: And especially here on The Bike Shed, where we try to gravitate towards the positive. But yeah, it's an interesting point that you make. STEPH: We're a bunch of ranters. It's what we do, pranting ranters. I don't know why we're pranting. [laughs] CHRIS: Because it's that exciting. That's what it is. Actually, there was an interesting thing as we were playing around with the pattern matching code, just poking around in the console session with it, and it prints out a deprecation warning. It's like, warning: this is an experimental feature. Do not use it, be careful. But in the back of my head, I was like, I actually know how this whole thing plays out, Ruby 2.7, and I assure you, it's going to be fine. I have been to the future, at least I'm pretty sure. I think the version that is in Ruby 2.7 did end up getting adopted basically as it stands. And so, I think there is also a setting to turn off that deprecation warning. I haven't done it yet, but I mostly just enjoyed the conversation that I had with this deprecation message of like, listen, I've been to the future, and it's great. Well, it's complicated, but specific to this pattern matching [laughs] in Ruby 3+ versions, it went awesome. And I'm really excited about that future that we now live in. STEPH: I wish we had that for so many more things in our life [laughs] of like, here's a warning, and it's like, no, no, I've seen the future. It's all right. Or you're totally right; I should avoid and back out of this now. CHRIS: If only we could know how the things would play out, you know. But yeah, so pattern matching, very cool. I'll include a link in the show notes to the particular page in the dry-monads docs. But there are also other cool things on the internet. In an unrelated but also cool thing that I found this week, we use Tuple a lot within our organization for pair programming. For anyone who's not familiar with it, it's a really wonderful piece of technology that allows you to pair program pretty seamlessly, better video quality, all of those nice things that we want. But I found there was just the tiniest bit of friction in starting a Tuple call. I know I want to pair with this person. And I have to go up and click on the little menu bar, and then I have to find their name, then I have to click a button. That's just too much. That's not how...I want to live my life at the keyboard. I have a thing called Bartender, which is a little menu bar manager utility app that will collapse down and hide the icons. But it's also got a nice, little hotkey accessible pop-up window that allows me to filter down and open one of the menu bar pop-out menus. But unfortunately, when that happens, the Tuple window isn't interactive at that point. I can't use the arrow keys to go up and down. And so I was like, oh, man, I wonder if there's like an Alfred workflow for this. And it turns out indeed there is actually managed by the kind folks at Tuple themselves. So I was able to find that, install it; it's great. I have it now. I can use that. So that was a nice little upgrade to my workflow. I can just type like TC space and then start typing out the person's name, and then hit enter, and it will start a call immediately. And it doesn't actually make me more productive, but it makes me happier. And some days, that's what matters. STEPH: That's always so impressive to me when that happens where you're like, oh, I need a thing. And then you went through the saga that you just went through. And then the people who manage the application have already gotten there ahead of you, and they're like, don't worry, we've created this for you. That's one of those just beautiful moments of like, wow, y'all have really thought this through on a bunch of different levels and got there before me. CHRIS: It's somewhat unsurprising in this case because it's a very developer-centric organization, and Ben's background being a thoughtbot developer and Alfred user, I'm almost certain. Although I've seen folks talking about Raycast, which is the new hotness on the quick launcher world. I started eons ago in Quicksilver, and then I moved to Alfred, I don't know, ten years ago. I don't know what time it is anymore. But I've been in Alfred land for a while, but Raycast seems very cool. Just as an aside, I have not allowed myself... [laughs] this is another one of those like; I do not have permission to go explore this new tool yet because I don't think it will actually make me more productive, although it could make me happier. So... STEPH: I haven't heard of that one, Raycast. I'm literally adding it to the show notes right now as a way so you can find The Duke later, and I can find Raycast later [chuckles] and take a look at it and check it out. Although I really haven't embraced the whole Alfred workflow. I've seen people really enjoy it and just rave about it and how wonderful it is. But I haven't really leaned into that part of the world; I don't know why. I haven't set any hard and fast rules for myself where I can't play around with these technologies, but I haven't taken the time to do it either. CHRIS: You've also not found yourself writing thousands of lines of Vimscript because you thought that was a good idea. So you don't need as many guardrails it would seem. That's my guess. STEPH: This is true. CHRIS: Whereas I need to be intentional [laughs] with how I structure my interaction with my dev tools. STEPH: Instead, I'm just porting over fixtures from one place to another. [laughs] That's the weird space that I'm living in instead. [laughs] CHRIS: But you're getting paid for that. No one paid me for the Vimscript I wrote. [laughter] STEPH: That's fair. Speaking around process-y things, there's something that's been on my mind that Valeria, another thoughtboter, suggested around how we structure our meetings and the default timing that we have for meetings. So Thursdays are my team-focused day. And it's the day where I have a lot of one on ones. And I realized that I've scheduled them back to back, which is problematic because then I have zero break in between them, which I'm less concerned about that because then I can go for an hour or something and not have a break. And I'm not worried about that part. But it does mean that if one of those discussions happens to go over just even for like two or three minutes, then it means that someone else is waiting for me in those two to three minutes. And that feels unacceptable to me. So Valeria brought up a really good idea where I think it's only with the Google Meet paid version. I could be wrong there. But I think with the paid version of it that then you can set the new default for how long a meeting is going to last. So instead of having it default to 30 minutes, have it default to 25 minutes. So then, that way, you do have that five-minute buffer. So if you do go over just like two or three minutes with someone, you've still got like two minutes to then hop to the next call, and nobody's waiting for you. Or if you want those five minutes to then grab some water or something like that. So we haven't implemented it just yet because then there's discussion around is this a new practice that we want everybody to move to? Because I mean, if just one person does it, it doesn't work. You really need everybody to buy into the concept of we're now defaulting to 25 versus 30-minute meetings. So I'll have to let you know how that goes. But I'm intrigued to try it out because I think that would be very helpful for me. Although there's a part of me that then feels bad because it's like, well, if I have 30 minutes to chat with somebody, but now I'm reducing it to 25 minutes each time, I didn't love that I'm taking time away from our discussion. But that still feels like a better outcome than making somebody wait for three to five minutes if something else goes over. So have you ever run into something like that? How do you manage back-to-back meetings? Do you intentionally schedule a break in between or? CHRIS: I do try to give myself some buffer time. I stack meetings but not so much so that they're just back to back. So I'll stack them like Wednesdays are a meeting-heavy day for me. That's intentional just to be like, all right, I know that my day is going to get chopped up. So let's just really lean into that, chop the heck out of Wednesday afternoons, and then the rest of the week can hopefully have slightly longer deep work-type sessions. And, yeah, in general, I try and have like a little gap in between them. But often what I'll do for that is I'll stagger the start of the next meeting to be rather than on the hour or the half-hour, I start it on the 15th minute. And so then it's sort of I now have these little 15-minute gaps in my workflow, which is enough time to do one or two small things or to go get a drink or whatever it is or if things do run over. Like, again, I feel what you're saying of like, I don't necessarily want to constrain a meeting. Or I also don't necessarily want to go into the habit of often over-running. I think it's good to be intentional. Start meetings on time, end meetings on time. If there's a great conversation that's happening, maybe there's another follow-up meeting that should happen or something like that. But for as nonsensical of a human as I believe myself to be, I am rather rigid about meetings. I try very hard to be on time. I try very hard to wrap them up on time to make sure I go to the next one. And so with that, the 15-minute staggering is what I've found works for me. STEPH: Yeah, that makes sense. One-on-ones feels special to me because I wholeheartedly agree with being very diligent about like, hey, this is our meeting time. Let's do a time check. Someone says that at the end, and then that way, everybody can move on. But one on ones are, there's more open discussion space, and I hate cutting people off, especially because it might not be until the last 15 minutes that you really got into the meat of the conversation. Or you really got somewhere that's a little bit more personal or things that you want to talk about. So if someone's like, "Yeah, let me tell you about my life goals," and you're like, "Oh, no, wait, sorry. We're out of time." That feels terrible and tragic to do. So I struggle with that part of it. CHRIS: I will say actually, on that note, I'm now thinking through, but I believe this to be true. Everyone that reports to me I have a 45-minute one-on-one with, and then my CEO I set up the one-on-one. So I also made that one a 45-minute one-on-one. And that has worked out really well. Typically, I try and structure it and reiterate this from time to time of, like, hey, this is your space, not mine. So let's have whatever conversation fits in here. And it's fine if we don't need to use the whole time, but I want to make sure that we have it and that we protect it. Because I often find much like retro, I don't know; I think everything's fine. And then suddenly the conversation starts, and you're like, you know what? Actually, I'm really concerned now that you mentioned it. And you need that sort of empty space that then the reality sort of pop up into. And so with one on one, I try and make sure that there is that space, but I'm fine with being like, we can cut this short. We can move on from one-on-one topics to more of status updates; let's talk about the work. But I want to make sure that we lead with is there anything deeper, any concerns, anything you want to talk through? And sort of having the space and time for that. STEPH: I like that. And I also think it speaks more directly to the problem I'm having because I'm saying that we keep running over a couple of minutes, and so someone else is waiting. So rather than shorten it, which is where I'm already feeling some pain...although I still think that's a good idea to have a default of 25-minute meetings so then that way, there is a break versus the full 30. So if people want to have back-to-back meetings, they still have a little bit of time in between. But for one on ones specifically, upping it to 45 minutes feels nice because then you've got that 15-minute buffer likely. I mean, maybe you schedule a meeting, but, I don't know, that's funky. But likely, you've got a 15-minute buffer until your next one. And then that's also an area that I feel comfortable in sharing with folks and saying, "Hey, I've booked this whole 45 minutes. But if we don't need the whole time, that's fine." I'm comfortable saying, "Hey, we can end early, and you can get more of your time back to focus on some other areas." It's more the cutting someone off when they're talking because I have to hop to the next thing. I absolutely hate that feeling. So thanks, I think I'll give that a go. I think I'll try actually bumping it up to 45 minutes, presuming that other people like that strategy too, since they're opting in [laughs] to the 45 minutes structure. But that sounds like a nice solution. CHRIS: Well yeah, happy to share it. Actually, one interesting thing that I'm realizing, having been a manager at thoughtbot and then now being a manager within Sagewell, the nature of the interactions are very different. With thoughtbot, I was often on other projects. I was not working with my team day to day in any real capacity. So it was once every two weeks, I would have this moment to reconnect with them. And there was some amount of just catching up. Ideally, not like status update, low-level sort of thing, but sort of just like hey, what have you been working on? What have you been struggling with? What have you been enjoying? There was more like I needed bigger space, I would say for that, or it's not surprising to me that you're bumping into 30 minutes not being quite long enough. Whereas regularly, in the one on ones that I have now, we end up cutting them short or shifting out of true one-on-one mode into more general conversation and chatting about Raycast or other tools or whatever it is because we are working together daily. And we're pairing very regularly, and we're all on the same project and all sorts of in sync and know what's going on. And we're having retro together. We have plenty of places to have the conversation. So the one-on-one again, still, I keep the same cadence and the same time structure just because I want to make sure we have the space for any day that we really need that. But in general, we don't. Whereas when I was at thoughtbot, it was all the more necessary. And I think for folks listening; I could imagine if you're in a team lead position and if you're working very closely with folks, then you may be on the one side of things versus if you're a little bit more at a distance from the work that they're doing day to day. That's probably an interesting question to ask, and think about how you want to structure it. STEPH: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. Because you're right; I don't see these individuals. We may not have really gotten to interact, except for our daily syncs outside of that. So then yeah, there's always like a good first 10 minutes of where we're just chatting about life and catching up on how things are going before then we dive into some other things. So I think that's a really good point. Cool, solving management problems on the mic. I dig it. In slightly different news, I've joined a book club, which I'm excited about. This book club is about Ruby. It's specifically reading the book Ruby Science, which is a book that was written and published by thoughtbot. And it requires zero homework, which is my favorite type of book club. Because I have found I always want to be part of book clubs. I'm always interested in them, but then I'm not great at budgeting the time to make sure I read everything I'm supposed to read. And so then it comes time for folks to get together. And I'm like, well, I didn't do my homework, so I can't join it. But for this one, it's being led by Joël, and the goal is that you don't have to do the homework. And they're just really short sections. So whoever's in charge of leading that particular session of the book club they're going to provide an overview of what's covered in whatever the reading material that we're supposed to read, whatever topic we're covering that day. They're going to provide an overview of it, an example of it, so then we can all talk about it together. So if you read it, that's wonderful. You're a bit ahead and could even join the meeting like five minutes late. Or, if you haven't read it, then you could join and then get that update. So I'm very excited about it. And this was one of those books that I'd forgotten that thoughtbot had written, and it's one that I've never read. And it's public for anybody that's interested in it. So to cover a little bit of details about it, so it talks about code smells, ways to refactor code, and then also common patterns that you can use to solve some issues. So there's a lot of really just great content that's in it. And I'll be sure to include a link in the show notes for anyone else that's interested. CHRIS: And again, to reiterate, this book is free at this point. Previously, in the past, it was available for purchase. But at one point a number of years ago, thoughtbot set all of the books free. And so now that along with a handful of other books like...what's Edward's DNS book? Domain Name Sanity, I believe, is Edward's book name that Edward Loveall wrote when he was not a thoughtboter, [laughs] and then later joined as a thoughtboter, and then we made the book free. But on the specific topic of Ruby Science, that is a book that I will never forget. And the reason I will never forget it is that book was written by the one and only CTO Joe Ferris, who is an incredibly talented developer. And when I was interviewing with thoughtbot, I got down to the final day, which is a pairing session. You do a morning pairing session with one thoughtbot developer, and you do an afternoon pairing session with another thoughtbot developer. So in the morning, I was working with someone on actually a patch to Rails which was pretty cool. I'd never really done that, so that was exciting. And that went fine with the exception that I kept turning on Caps Lock on their keyboard because I was used to Caps Lock being CTRL, and then Vim was going real weird for me. But otherwise, that went really well. But then, in the afternoon, I was paired with the one and only CTO Joe Ferris, who was writing the book Ruby Science at that time. And the nature of the book is like, here's a code sample, and then here's that code sample improved, just a lot of sort of side-by-side comparisons of code. And I forget the exact way that this went, but I just remember being terrified because Joe would put some code up on the screen and be like, "What do you think?" And I was like, oh, is this the good code or the bad code? I feel like I should know. I do not know. I'm not sure. It worked out fine, I guess. I made it through. But I just remember being so terrified at that point. I was just like, oh no, this is how it ends for me. It's been a good run. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I made it this far. I would have loved to work for this nice thoughtbot company, but here we are. But yeah, I made it through. [laughs] STEPH: There are so many layers to that too where it's like, well if I say it's terrible, are you going to be offended? Like, how's this going to go for me if I speak my truths? Or what am I going to miss? Yeah, that seems very interesting (I kind of like it.) but also a terrifying pairing session. CHRIS: I think it went well because I think the code...I'd been following thoughtbot's work, and I knew who Joe was and had heard him on podcasts and things. And I kind of knew roughly where things were, and I was like, that code looks messy. And so I think I mostly got it right, but just the openness of the question of like, what do you think? I was like, oh God. [laughs] So yeah, that book will always be in my memories, is how I would describe it. STEPH: Well, I'm glad it worked out so we could be here today recording a podcast together. [laughs] CHRIS: Recording a podcast together. Now that I say all that, though, it's been a long time since I've read the book. So maybe I'll take a revisit. And definitely interested to hear more about your book club and how that goes. But shifting ever so slightly (I don't have a lot to say on this topic.) but there's a new framework technology thing out there that has caught my attention. And this hasn't happened for a while, so it's kind of novel for me. So I tend to try and keep my eye on where is the sort of trend of web development going? And I found Inertia a while ago, and I've been very, very happy with that as sort of this is the default answer as to how I build websites. To be clear, Inertia is still the answer as to how I build websites. I love Inertia. I love what it represents. But I'm seeing some stuff that's really interesting that is different. Specifically, Remix.run is the thing that I'm seeing. I mentioned it, I think, in the last episode talking about there was some stuff that they were doing with data loading and async versus synchronous, and do you wait on it or? They had built some really nice levers and trade-offs into the framework. And there's a really great talk that Ryan Florence, one of the creators of Remix.run, gave about that and showed what they were building. I've been exploring it a little bit more in-depth now. And there is some really, really interesting stuff in Remix. In particular, it's a meta-framework, I think, is the nonsense phrase that we use to describe it. But it's built on top of React. That won't be true for forever. I think it's actually they would say it's more built on top of React Router. But it is very similar to Next.js for folks that have seen that. But it's got a little bit more thought around data loading. How do we change data? How do we revalidate data after? There's a ton of stuff that, having worked in many React client-side API-heavy apps that there's so much pain, cache invalidation. How do you think about the cache? When do you fetch from the network? How do you avoid showing 19 different loading spinners on the page? And Remix as a framework has some really, I think, robust and well-thought-out answers to a lot of that. So I am super-duper intrigued by what they're doing over there. There's a particular video that I think shows off what Remix represents really well. It's Ryan Florence, that same individual, the creator of Remix, building just a newsletter signup page. But he goes through like, let's start from the bare bones, simplest thing. It's just an input, and a form submits to the server. That's it. And so we're starting from web 2.0, long, long ago, sort of ideas, and then he gradually enhances it with animations and transitions and error states. And even at the end, goes through an accessibility audit using the screen reader to say, "Look, Remix helps you get really close because you're just using web fundamentals." But then goes a couple of steps further and actually makes it work really, really well for a screen reader. And, yeah, overall, I'm just super impressed by the project, really, really intrigued by the work that they're doing. And frankly, I see a couple of different projects that are sort of in this space. So yeah, again, very early but excited. STEPH: On their website...I'm checking it out as you're walking me through it, and on their website, they have "Say goodbye to Spinnageddon." And that's very cute. [laughs] CHRIS: There's some fundamental stuff that I think we've just kind of as a web community, we made some trade-offs that I personally really don't like. And that idea of just spinners everywhere just sending down a ball of application logic and a giant JavaScript file turning it on on someone's computer. And then immediately, it has to fetch back to the server. There are just trade-offs there that are not great. I love that Remix is sort of flipping that around. I will say, just to sort of couch the excitement that I'm expressing right now, that Remix exists in a certain place. It helps with building complex UIs. But it doesn't have anything in the data layer. So you have to bring your own data layer and figure out what that means. We have ActiveRecord within Rails, and it's deeply integrated. And so you would need to bring a Prisma or some other database connection or whatever it is. And it also doesn't have more sort of full-featured framework things. Like with Rails, it's very easy to get started with a background job system. Remix has no answer to that because they're like, no, no, this is what we're doing over here. But similarly, security is probably the one that concerns me the most. There's an open conversation in their discussion portal about CSRF protection and a back and forth of whether or not Remix should have that out of the box or not. And there are trade-offs because there are different adapters that you can use for auth. And each would require their own CSRF mitigation. But to me, that is the sort of thing that I would want a framework to have. Or I'd be interested in a framework that continues to build on top of Remix that adds in background jobs and databases and all that kind of stuff as a complete solution, something more akin to a Rails or a Laravel where it's like, here we go. This is everything. But again, having some of these more advanced concepts and patterns to build really, really delightful UIs without having to change out the fundamental way that you're building things. STEPH: Interesting. Yeah, I think you've answered a couple of questions that I had about it. I am curious as to how it fits into your current tech stack. So you've mentioned that you're excited and that it's helpful. But given that you already have Rails, and Inertia, and Svelte, does it plug and play with the other libraries or the other frameworks that you have? Are you going to have to replace something to then take advantage of Remix? What does that roadmap look like? CHRIS: Oh yeah, I don't expect to be using Remix anytime soon. I'm just keeping an eye on it. I think it would be a pretty fundamental shift because it ends up being the server layer. So it would replace Rails. It would replace the Inertia within the stack that I'm using. This is why as I started, I was like, Inertia is still my answer. Because Inertia integrates really well with Rails and allows me to do the sort of it's not progressive enhancement, but it's like, I want fancy UI, and I don't want to give up on Rails. And so, Inertia is a great answer for that. Remix does not quite fit in the same way. Remix will own all of the request-response lifecycle. And so, if I were to use it, I would need to build out the rest of that myself. So I would need to figure out the data layer. I would need to figure out other things. I wouldn't be using Rails. I'm sure there's a way to shoehorn the technologies together, but I think it sort of architecturally would be misaligned. And so my sense is that folks out there are building...they're sort of piecing together parts of the stack to fill out the rest. And Remix is a really fantastic controller and view from their down experience and routing layer. So it's routing, controller, view I would say Remix has a really great answer to, but it doesn't have as much of the other stuff. Whereas in my case, Inertia and Rails come together and give me a great answer to the whole story. STEPH: Got it. Okay, that's super helpful. CHRIS: But yeah, again, I'm in very much the exploratory phase. I'm super intrigued by a lot of what I've seen of it and also just sort of the mindset, the ethos of the project as it were. That sounds fancy as I say it, but it's what I mean. I think they want to build from web fundamentals and then enhance the experience on top of that, and I think that's a really great way to go. It means that links will work. It means that routing and URLs will work by default. It means that you won't have loading spinner Armageddon, and these are core fundamentals that I believe make for good websites and web applications. So super interested to see where they go with it. But again, for me, I'm still very much in the Rails Inertia camp. Certainly, I mean, I've built Sagewell on top of it, so I'm going to be hanging out with it for a while, but also, it would still be my answer if I were starting something new right now. I'm just really intrigued by there's a new example out there in the world, this Remix thing that's pushing the envelope in a way that I think is really great. But with that, my now…what was that? My second or my third rave? Also called the positive rant, as we call it. But yeah, I think on that note, what do you think? Should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends, and welcome to The Path To Well-Being in Law podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your co-host Chris Newbold, executive vice president of Alps Malpractice Insurance and most of our listeners know that our goal is pretty straightforward. We want to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the wellbeing space and within the legal profession. In the process we want to build and nurture a national network of wellbeing advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. I am always pleased to introduce my co-host Bree Buchanan. Bree, how's it going? BREE BUCHANAN: It's going great, Chris. How is your spring starting off? CHRIS: It's a little colder in Montana than I would like, but the warm weather is on the way. So I'm certainly looking forward to that. So a lot going on, obviously, in the wellbeing world and super excited to continue with kind of thoughtful discussion here on the podcast. We're going to continue. I think our series here on diversity, equity and inclusion and the intersection of DEI with well-being and super excited to be welcoming Lia Dorsey to the podcast. Bree, would you be so kind to introduce Lia to our listeners? BREE: I would love to. So we are so delighted to bring to you Lia Dorsey today, and she is a thought leader in the movement to advanced diversity and a driver for inclusive change. As the chief diversity equity and inclusion officer at Ogletree Deakins, she's responsible for the development and execution of the firm's diversity equity and inclusion strategy. Ms. Dorsey collaborates with firm leadership, practice group leaders and business resource groups to expand in advance efforts in the recruitment development promotion and retention of diverse talent. BREE: Ms. Dorsey previously served as the head of diversity and inclusion at Denton's, U.S. There she was responsible for the strategic oversight, design and implementation of this very large terms, diversity and inclusion initiatives. Before that she served as the director of diversity and inclusion at Eversheds Sutherland and has also held senior positions at DLA Piper and Buchanan Ingersoll & Rooney. All of those names that many of us know. Lia's also president emeritus, I told her the best place, best position to have, of the Association of Law Firm Diversity Professionals. She's a sought after presenter in panelist on a broad range of topics covering diversity, equity, and inclusion at conferences across the country. Lia, welcome. We are so glad you're here with us today. LIA DORSEY: Thank you, Bree. Thank you, Chris, for having me. I am thrilled. Thrilled to be here. BREE: Yeah. Thank you so much. So Lia, I'm going to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests, because I think it just is well, so interesting. So what are some of your experiences in your life that are drivers behind your very clear passion for the work around DEI? LIA DORSEY: Great, great question. I like to start by saying that I've always been an inclusionist, if you will, although it didn't have a term back in the day as I was growing up and I'll just kind of share just a really funny story. I used to get in trouble a lot as a child, because I would give away my toys to my friends who didn't have them. So I would always just share, I would always just give. I was always that compassionate person and I think my parents appreciated it until I gave away my brand new pink and white huffy bike with the [inaudible 00:03:54] and then I think after that, it's "Okay, I think we need to kind of reign this in and pray." But all jokes aside I've always been a giver. I've always been a giver and I live by the verse, "To whom much is given, much will be required," and I seriously take that to heart. LIA DORSEY: I've long supported those from different backgrounds and environments. I've been a volunteer for a long time. I mentor, especially now in my role, I think it's very, very important for me to reach back and pull others forward. But for me, this was just what you did as a good person, right, it was never about shine or the accolades. You helped people who need it. I'm still an inclusionist, but now I like to refer to myself as a disruptor for good. BREE: All right. LIA DORSEY: Just today I heard someone else describe herself as a professional troublemaker, and I think I'm going to borrow that one as well, because at the end of the day to do this work, you have to be brave and you have to be bold. I'm also clear that it's not for everyone, that this is by far the hardest job that I've ever had, but it's also the most rewarding and I honestly can't see myself doing anything else. BREE: Yeah. I hope that I can be a professional disruptor at some point, but it does take a lot of courage. Absolutely. So good for you. CHRIS: It does. Lia, tell us a little bit about... One of the things I was impressed about kind of how your professional journey has kind of taken shape, is you've had the ability to move in and out of different cultures within the legal profession, which I just find is really fascinating. Tell us about your journey in the area of diversity, equity and inclusion and in the time that you have been a disruptor for good, how have things changed over that time? LIA DORSEY: Yeah, so I have been in law firms for a very, very, very long time. Although, I didn't start out in DE&I. I actually started out on the business side of the law firm for years and at one particular firm, we didn't have anyone at that time leading DE&I in an official capacity. So I raised my hand, again, I would love to volunteer and that's a reoccurring theme with me. But two years later, I found myself with almost two full time jobs. So the job that I was hired to do and the job that I was meant to do, and that was the DE&I role. So that same firm really saw how passionate I was about DE&I work and just how happy I was doing it. They actually created a role for me as the director of DE&I at that firm and as they say the rest was history. LIA DORSEY: But when we think about what changed over time, I think we've seen DE&I become more of a strategic focus in priority for firms. Even before the events of 2020, I think, we started to see firms dedicate more resources to DE&I, like creating full time positions, moving away from DE&I being embedded in HR or being seen as a compliance requirement from the GCs office. So we had really started to see kind of an elevation of DE&I and the role. Then 2020 happened and we'll talk about that a little bit more, but what we saw was even more of a cohesion around DE&I. We saw leaders speaking up, stepping up. We saw a heightened level of awareness. LIA DORSEY: People became aware of issues that weren't on their radar in the past. I think the murder of George Floyd was a pivotal moment. I'm often asked how that moment was so different because sadly George Floyd, wasn't the first Black man to be murdered at the hands of police and sadly he wasn't the last, but I think the difference that the world was at home, watching it happen and people who thought things like this didn't happen were now outraged, right. But that rage led to empowerment. We have to do something. We have to say something. LIA DORSEY: So we're seeing a lot of folks speaking up more because they aren't afraid and they're making demands for change. All of that is great and that is a big change, because I would say before 2020, I don't think that you would've seen people speaking up and standing up the way that we're seeing it now. I think all of that is great, but I also think that we're in an inflection point, right, because there are forces in this world who don't want things to change. The thought is the system has worked in one way for so long, so why change it? But the only way to move forward successfully is to change and I'm one of those change agents that's working to try to make this world a better place. BREE: Absolutely. Wow, absolutely. That's so wonderful. So [inaudible 00:08:48], I've seen you... Lia, I'm sorry, seen or heard you talk about your experience over time here. What have you seen now that legal employers are doing right in this area? What are some good examples and we'll get to weaving in the intersectionality of well-being, but right now let's stick with the DEI work. What do you see as going right here? LIA DORSEY: Absolutely. I think there's much more focus and intention being put around the advancement and retention of diverse talent, specifically minority talent. Recruiting is still a focus of course, but we realize that diverse talent need meaningful support once they join the firm. So for the listeners, I just challenge them to ask themselves, how are you investing in your diverse talent? Are you having real conversations around the development of your talent because we really need to make serious and meaningful investments. I've always said that the talent is there, but the opportunities aren't always there and the opportunities that I'm talking about are things like introductions to key clients and the ability to develop client relationships. It's getting the high value work. It's being able to tap into the resources for business development and the list goes on, because we all know that these are the types of things that can really impact someone's career. LIA DORSEY: So with that as the backdrop here, a few things that I'm kind of seeing that are having a meaningful impact today. We're seeing the creation of formal DE&I sponsorship programs. So we know the difference between mentorship and sponsorship, right. So a mentor talks to you and a sponsor talks about you and the best DE&I sponsorship programs that I've seen have leaders of the firms and that's the board, it's the managing partner, the executive committee and what I like to call the front page of the [inaudible 00:10:36] sheet lawyers. But that group of people are actually the ones serving as the sponsors. That has two great benefits. One is that it shows the stakeholders that the leaders are invested in the diverse attorney's development and they aren't pushing it off on someone else to do. So we know that law firms are top down organizations, right, but having those at the top who are actively engaged in the DE&I work has a profound impact. LIA DORSEY: The second thing is that that group of people are in a position to make sure that the lawyers are getting those opportunities that are referenced, right. So they actually have the work and they can make those key introductions. So I think sponsorship programs are definitely on the rise and I think that they can be very, very effective and can lead to retention. LIA DORSEY: The second thing that I'm seeing is kind of a focus on culture overall, because we know that culture is a differentiator, right. It's the reason people stay or go. A survey by McKenzie found that the majority of employees have considered the inclusiveness of companies when they're making career decisions. I like to say this, if you ask the people at the top of the organization to describe the culture, I'm sure that what they would say is probably different than what those who aren't at the top would say. I mean, and this is what we like to call that perception gap that often exists between the leaders and the employees and it's how do we get everyone to kind of experience the culture in the same way? So just think about it and ask yourself is your culture by default or by design. BREE: Wow. LIA DORSEY: Right. So we've been talking a lot about the great resignation and the she session, but now we're... I love that term. I mean, it's sad, but it's still a good term. BREE: I love it. I hadn't heard it before. CHRIS: I hadn't either. That's a good one. BREE: She session. Yeah. LIA DORSEY: The she session. Yeah. But now we're talking about the great reboot or the great realization and the reality is that the world is different since the start of the pandemic. People are expecting to work differently and they want companies to kind of meet more in their needs. So this is really an opportunity for firms to reimagine their workplace and their culture. Then the last thing I would say here is the inclusion of staff, right. Inclusion really is inclusion for all and not for some, but we know that law firms typically focus on the benefits of the lawyers and now we're seeing staff being introduced into that conversation, which is long overdue, but it's definitely necessary. If I can just touch just quickly on the things that don't work. BREE: Yeah. Please, please. CHRIS: Yeah. For sure. Lessons learned. LIA DORSEY: When companies don't make DE&I a priority. So when they still think it's just a nice to do, or if the efforts are just performative and they're doing it because their clients are kind of forcing them to do it. So you have to make it a priority. It has to be part of the overall firm strategy. And then if your leaders aren't engaged, and I'll talk a little bit more later about the difference between commitment and engagement, if they aren't engaged, then you're probably not going to have a lot of success. BREE: Right, right. So important. CHRIS: It seems Lia that you're, I feel like in your tone that you are optimistic that the level of engagement and particularly leadership leaning in, is increasing. Is that fair? LIA DORSEY: It is. It is definitely increasing. There were people who just because they could have been checked out of this conversation for such a long time, and now they are checking into the conversation. But I'll also say that just because you're checking in it doesn't always mean that you know what to do and know what to say and that's where folks like me and people who do this kind of work can really help with that. But I am definitely encouraged and I like to look at life as glass, half full with the way that things are progressing and the level of interest by certain stakeholders. It's really encouraging. CHRIS: Yeah. Because I know we're going to talk about this a little bit more, but I just think it's so fascinating how, as you know, even in the work that Bree and I do on the well-being front, so much of what maybe I'm going to say, not the easy part, but building awareness and educating others is one element to it. But ultimately action and taking on systemic barriers become probably the harder part of advancing social change and being a catalyst for cultural shifts, right. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes decades, right, to effectively be able to do that. But I find such interesting similarities in the efforts to advance both one DEI on a track, one well-being on a track and then the intersection of the two, which I think is even more interesting because some of the challenges are obviously unique and differentiated that... Really interesting. CHRIS: You said earlier in the podcast, Lia, that the hardest job that you've had, and that a lot of this has to do with, is the fact that you are trying to get people to change, right, and evolve their thinking and ultimately act in appropriate and effective ways. What works here and how do you get people to not necessarily... Well, I would call it evolve their attitudes and actions as they think about what the right work culture is and what ultimately is the right thing to do. But also, advances kind of where the firm is as a business entity. LIA DORSEY: Yeah. That's such a great question. You can't do this work thinking that you will be able to get people to change, right. There's a great cartoon clip of someone addressing a crowd of people asking who wants to change and everyone raises their hand and then they ask, who wants to change and then all the hands go down, right. That graphic perfectly sums up what it's like doing this work. A lot of people are committed to DE&I and they care and they have good intentions, but not many folks are actively engaged and I said I would talk about the difference between the two. LIA DORSEY: I think right now you'd be hard pressed to find a leader who would actively come out and say that they aren't committed to DE&I, but it's more difficult to get them to actually engage in the work. It's hard to get folks to willingly use their influence and internal capital to help someone else, especially if that individual isn't like them. So they don't look like them and you're not part of my in group, but that said, if we won't change, we cannot sit on the sidelines, right. So I believe that in action or neutrality is complicity. Action is courage and courage is a habit. It's a muscle that you build over time. It's consistently committing to something, knowing that at times you may get it wrong or you may be uncomfortable. I mean, look, sometimes I still get it wrong and I do this for a living, but- BREE: Thank you for saying that, Lia, thank you for saying that. Oh, my gosh. LIA DORSEY: It's just, it's continually showing up and engaging and if you get it wrong, you get up and you continue to try again. So, we spent a lot of times educating our stakeholders and raising awareness around DE&I. What does it mean to really be an ally or an upstander? What do those terms mean, right. What does equity really look like in a law firm? How do you work across difference? How do you have courageous and meaningful conversations with others who are not like you, right. What is bias? How does it show up in your interaction with others? LIA DORSEY: So once you understand some of these issues, hopefully that'll lead to greater empathy and then hopefully that will lead to action. Just in closing, I'll say, so instead of focusing solely on changing minds, focus on changing your systems and changing your processes and changing your policies, because that's also where a lot of this bias breeds, which sometimes folks don't want to change their minds because they're set on something. As my friend, Michelle Silverthorne, she is a popular DE&I and culture consultant says, if you change the system, you'll change the world. So I spend a lot more of my time focusing on changing the systems and then the hearts and minds will follow. BREE: Absolutely. That's just absolutely brilliant. Yeah. I've always thought that if you get the right form in place, things will follow. You ask the right questions on the right forms- LIA DORSEY: Absolutely. BREE: ... And that starts to shift the culture. Yeah. Yeah. So important. So Lia, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit, we're going to take a break here in just a second, but you are just coming off as president of the association of law firm, diversity professionals, and I can really hear the polish of your message, which I'm sure that you honed over the time as president. What has that group been focusing on? What are you guys focusing on now? LIA DORSEY: Oh, absolutely. So, for those who may not know, ALFDP is an association of law firm professionals working in the DE&I space in the United States, Canada, and in the U.S. I'm sorry, UK. The association is around what, 16 years old at this point. As you mentioned, I served as president for two years. I served as VP before that. I'm technically still on the board and it is just an absolutely amazing organization just to be able to connect with people who are trying to solve the same problems, right, and achieve the same goals. So let's try to put our heads together and solve it together. But essentially we equip our members with the tools, tips, and talking points that they need to advance DE&I within their own firms and to help get the buy in and the resources that they need and resources is sometimes talent and then sometimes it's money. LIA DORSEY: Another great thing that we do is to collaborate with other DE&I focused organizations as well. Last year, we collaborated with Thompson Reuters and the ACC Foundation on a white paper called the Pandemic Nation: Understanding its impact on lawyers from underrepresented communities. It was a great white paper. I encourage your listeners to download it. It essentially was an in depth look at the impact of the pandemic on the careers and lawyers from underrepresented communities. What's great about that research even now is that it really points out the challenges and the opportunities of those historically excluded lawyers, which is really, really important. Particularly the opportunities part as all of us are slowly returning to the office. LIA DORSEY: There are things that organizations can keep in mind and I'm cleared about saying returning to the office and not returning to work because trust and believe for the past two years, we have been working hard, harder than we ever have. So I really want to remind people, we're talking about returning to the office, but ALFDP keeps on top of the primary issues that everybody is dealing with and then we try to find resources and give tips and tools to help solve some of those challenges. So great, great association and I'm so glad and honored to have been able to lead it. BREE: So, Lia, what is the web address for that in case our listeners are interested in checking it out? LIA DORSEY: Absolutely, www.alfdp.com. CHRIS: Lia, I have to imagine that, and this would be an encouraging sign that your membership has expanded significantly of late. Is that the case? LIA DORSEY: Oh, my gosh. Yes. CHRIS: Right. I mean that's a sign that, again, people are leaning in, that they're looking for a community that can provide national resources to be able to aid them. I mean, this is an organization that I wasn't aware of, but again, gives me cause for optimism that there are change agents that are coming together and sharing best practices that are ultimately going to advance our profession. LIA DORSEY: Absolutely. The membership grows every day and a lot of that is because a lot of these firms are creating a lot of DE&I roles and positions and sometimes they're elevating existing people. So the interest in DE&I overall, and in ALFDP, specifically, is just amazing. CHRIS: Awesome. Well, this is a great place... Let's take a quick break and hear from one of our sponsors and then we'll come back and I'm really excited to kind of start to talk about the intersection of DEI and well-being. So we'll be right back.   — Advertisement: Meet Vera, your firm's virtual ethics risk assessment guide. Developed by ALPS, Vera's purpose is to help you uncover risk management blind spots from client intake to calendaring, to cybersecurity and more. Vera: I require only your honest input to my short series of questions. I will offer you a summary of recommendations to provide course corrections if needed, and to keep your firm on the right path. Generous and discrete, Vera is a free and anonymous risk management guide from ALPS to help firms, like yours, be their best. Visit Vera at alpsinsurance.com/vera.   — CHRIS: All right, we are back with Lia Dorsey, chief diversity equity and inclusion officer at Ogletree Deakins. This is an area that I've been just very excited to delve into, because I know that our board at the Institute for Well-being in Law, you can't talk about well-being unless you're integrating and considering elements of diversity, equity and inclusion as well. Lia, I'd love just to hear more about in your experience, how do they intersect, right, and how do we think about them, I guess not as two tracks, but two tracks, obviously intertwined. LIA DORSEY: Yeah. Mental health and DE&I are definitely closely connected. I would say right now, mental health and wellness and burnout, are very common topics in the workplace today and I think it's great that we're starting to normalize conversations around those topics. Asking for help now is not seen as a weakness and people are having dialogues and they're willing to talk about their personal experiences and their struggles. When we talk about DE&I, diversity, equity and inclusion, there's also another letter that's joining that and that's the B for belonging and that's really the psychological safety that folks feel. Honestly, we weren't talking about these things before, but it is just so important that we're having these conversations now and the fact that all of us spend the majority of our time at work, prioritizing mental health in the workplace is really, really a must. LIA DORSEY: Many of us are managing work related stress and experiencing diminished mental health because of the pandemic and the racial injustice crisis. This is, it's taken a toll on people and more so for those from diverse backgrounds in communities. We talked about, since 2020, there's been a much needed spotlight on racial justice, but it's also highlighted the serious lack of dialogue, addressing specific mental health needs and challenges for those from underrepresented communities. I think just kind of navigating and adapting to those challenges is really important because there's a lot of stress that that community is experiencing because of what's going on and that stress can worsen and it can cause health problems, it can lead to increased mental health conditions and so much more. LIA DORSEY: On the diversity piece of it, folks from diverse backgrounds often face increased bias and microaggressions and other stressors that impact their mental health and that psychological safety. So I think for the intersection between the two, it's really important to focus on that sense of belonging, because it's critical for overall mental health and well-being, because the more we feel like we belong, the more we feel like we can be ourselves, right. BREE: Absolutely. LIA DORSEY: [inaudible 00:27:16] like we have that support, then we can cope effectively with the stress and the difficulties in our lives. So firms and companies really need to prioritize creating this type of culture that supports, not only just mental health and wellness, but that inclusion and that belonging piece as well. I think another way that they intersect, and it's a way that a lot of people don't think about often is when you think about benefits. So really, evaluate the benefits that you are offering at your company. Are they inclusive? Are your wellness benefits available to everyone, or just... And now that we're talking about possibly, returning back to the office, look at your flexible working policies. Who gets to continue to work a hybrid schedule, who's asked to come back into the office, and when you examine that, you'll see how that too impacts diversity. So as we're trying to all come up with these solutions around mental health and wellbeing, it's really important to keep some key DE&I concepts in mind, as well. BREE: Absolutely. I just love what you're saying there around inclusion and belonging. One of the things that I teach about when I talk is also the idea, and this is where I touch upon the intersectionality here, and I talk about the impact on mental health outcomes of what's called thwarted belongingness. I don't know if you've heard that phrase before, but it's also something that's been studied in a precursor or predictor or suicidality. I mean, it's really serious. I think about, I use the example of, if you can't think of anything else, remember what it's like to be a little kid and everybody's being chosen for the basketball team and you're the last one, that was my experience, [inaudible 00:29:04], and just how awful that feels. Can you try to touch into that and have some empathy or compassion? So, yeah. That's brilliant. LIA DORSEY: Absolutely. If I may, there's one thing when you just shared that story and I was the person who got picked last too, I don't have any [inaudible 00:29:19]. But it just made me think about this amazing quote and I'm sure a lot of folks have heard at this point, but it's by Bernie Myers, and it says, "Diversity is being invited to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance." It's that last part that is just so important, right, because it's not good enough just to be seen, right. It's also about being included, being involved, feeling that sense of belonging and so that made me think of that quote, as you just shared [inaudible 00:29:48]. BREE: Yeah, that's great. I'm afraid I also the person [inaudible 00:29:51] not being asked to dance, but anyway, that's another story. So Lia, I really want to dig to hear a little bit about a theme that has run through our conversations here, is about the role of leaders in the profession. Of course there are the CEOs of the big law firms, some of the ones that you have worked for. There's other leaders of the profession that I think really have a responsibility here are the judges and the state bar presidents, people that really are at the forefront of the profession. So what thoughts do you have about how we influence these leaders, that if you care about wellbeing, you have to care about diversity, equity, inclusion, and vice versa. How do you get them to pay attention and to take action to become, I think you were saying, it's not commitment, it's engagement. LIA DORSEY: Absolutely. Absolutely. Deloitte conducted a survey. I believe it was last year, which found that DE&I and employment health and well-being are top priorities for CEOs. I thought that was very, very telling, right. So leaders really need to prioritize their employees total well-being, and that includes their physical, mental, emotional health and it also includes work life balance. But in order to do that leaders must understand and address the unique challenges that their underrepresented employees face. We talked about this a little earlier, so that's the bias, the microaggression, it's the health disparities potentially, it's different mental health treatment and outcomes. Sadly I think that list goes on. So I think you can influence and encourage them, if you will, by just making sure that they understand that this is really important for every single employee, right, and some of the current support programs that they have in place, it's just not enough. LIA DORSEY: Firms have to really take a strategic and a holistic approach to mental health and wellness because there isn't one solution to the problem or silver bullet, but it's really a series of actions that they need to take. Then you need to tie this some kind of way to retention and culture, because we talked about this at the top, culture plays a big role in mental health, right it's about those safe spaces. It's about inclusion, because we know that inclusive workspace are more engaged and productive, but if you can really help your employees feel like they truly, truly belong, then you can help them achieve that greater sense of satisfaction in health and wellness and that can impact retention. LIA DORSEY: So just to kind of sum this up, leaders really need to prioritize their people and they need to create a workplace that fully supports every single employee, even the one from historically excluded groups and they must address those needs. If they want to create connected and inclusive workplaces, they have to address mental health because it's not an option to continue to ignore it. BREE: That's right. CHRIS: Yeah. Well, said. Let's look forward a decade and if we were to do a good job around evolving and changing attitudes and encouraging engagement and affecting hearts and minds, Lia, how will the legal profession be different? LIA DORSEY: Well, for starters, I hope the profession will be more diverse 10 years from now. It's a shame that after all these efforts and initiatives and research and data that the legal profession is still struggling with diversity. I want to see more of this diversity at the top as well. We all know that representation matters and I'd also like to see more accountability, right. How do we hold our leaders to account? I would love to see firms and I'm sure a lot of people are not going to like this, but I would love to see firms link the compensation to the advancement of DE&I, because our corporate partners are already doing this, right. I always say that diversity isn't black and white, it's green, because when you start talking about money, people listen. [inaudible 00:34:10]. So I would love to see that link because I think that will get us more change faster and sooner. BREE: Right. LIA DORSEY: So that's what I would say. CHRIS: Okay, and I'm just curious as we think about one thing, law schools obviously have a role here to play as a kind of a pathway into the profession. I'm just curious on your impressions on how they're doing relative to some of these challenges. Obviously, a lot of our work on the well-being front kind of starts with how folks come into the profession. I got to think that there's some direct corollaries there. LIA DORSEY: It is. One of the things that I've seen, which I think is great, is that our law schools are talking about DE&I earlier in the process or period, because it was a time when they weren't. So the fact that they're introducing and they're talking about these topics in law school, I think is great. Then we're also seeing a connection with some of the law school offerings and partnering with firms and other diversity associations that are out there, NCCA, the DFA and LCLD are three that come to mind. They're really just trying to make sure that particularly the diverse students are well prepared for a full enriched career in a law firm and really looking at how do we make sure that they know what to do and to make sure that they can ask the right questions and to find that mentor early and all of the things that come with that. So I'm really encouraged to see that type of partnering with some of the law schools and some of the other associations that are out there and with some law firms, as well CHRIS: As you said earlier, evolution here or progress I think has been slower than almost all of us believe could have been achieved. Are you optimistic about the future, and if so, what are some of the accelerator drivers that have you particularly excited for what's on the horizon? LIA DORSEY: Oh, Chris, I have to stay optimistic because if I don't, I'll go in my room, sit in the ball and cry. I just think it's really just my outlook. If I think about when I started in this field, not that long ago really, but when I started, we weren't even talking about some of the stuff that we're talking about even now and we were not as bold then as we are now. So, that definitely gives me hope. Some of the people that I see who are starting to do this work gives me hope. The fact that we're seeing managing partners and CEOs who are standing up and speaking up and actually putting that capital and using it to help advance it, all of that gives me hope. LIA DORSEY: I don't think that we will get there in my lifetime, but I am happy to be a person right now and a change agent who's really trying to plant the seeds that hopefully folks will continue to water. I tell people, this is a marathon. It didn't take us overnight to get into this and it's not going to take us overnight to get out of it. It's going to take some time, but I am very, very hopeful. CHRIS: Awesome. Well again, thank you so much for joining us. Whenever we can have a disruptor for good or a professional troublemaker on the podcast, we are all in and Lia, we certainly commend you for your longtime commitment, the impact that you're having, the willingness to serve and leadership structures and challenging the status quo, improving cultures, right. I mean, you are doing critical work, not just for your firm in particular, but well beyond in terms of improving this profession and the ability for this profession to ultimately serve the legal needs of the country, all of the legal needs of the country, right, not just certain legal needs of our country. So again, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. BREE: Thank you. Wonderful. Wonderful. LIA DORSEY: Thank you, Bree. Thank you, Chris. I have enjoyed my time immensely and I would be happy to come back if ever you would have me. This has been great and I love this so much. I can talk about this all day. I feel like our time just flew by. So thank you. Thank you again for having me. CHRIS: It certainly did and we will be back in a couple weeks with one final installment of kind of our series on the intersection of diversity, equity, inclusion, and well-being. Thanks to all of our friends out there for listening in and if you have ideas, continue to reach out to Bree or I for suggestions on future speakers. BREE: Absolutely. CHRIS: So everyone be well out there. Thank you. BREE: Take good care everyone. Bye-bye.  

Chris got a bike. Specifically, he bought a bike to use in a triathlon he signed up to participate in. Now he needs to name the bike, and speaking of naming things, a more technical topic that he talks about is the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. Steph talks about Rescue Rails projects and increasing developer acceleration. They answer a listener question asking, "Why do so many developers and agencies, thoughtbot included, replace the default test suite in Rails with RSpec?" This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Translate frustrations into professional corporate (https://twitter.com/MeanestTA/status/1509936432625897474) Learn Hotwire by Building a Forum (https://twitter.com/afomera/status/1512287468078264322) parallel_tests (https://github.com/grosser/parallel_tests) parallelsplittest (https://github.com/grosser/parallel_split_test) This episode is brought to you by Studio 3T (https://studio3t.com/free). Try Studio 3T's full suite of features for 30 days, no payment details needed. Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: Oh, but I recently learned that Robert Downey Jr. in the Marvel movies he's snacking a lot, maybe not Iron Man, but something...oh no, he's stacking a lot. And I'd read that he was snacking a lot on set, and so they just built it in to where like, sure, you can snack as your character while you're doing stuff. CHRIS: [laughs] STEPH: And I think that's so cool because I find that I am eating every time I show up to record with you. So I would like the same special star treatment as Robert Downey Jr., [laughs] and I just get to eat during each Bike Shed. [laughs] CHRIS: All right. [chuckles] My understanding is also that he was wildly the highest paid of all the actors, so I think that should also come along with this. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Yeah, there's a lot that we can sort of layer on here, but it makes sense to me, and I'm fully on board. STEPH: You're an excellent agent. Thank you for fighting for my higher pay. [laughter] CHRIS: You are welcome. STEPH: What a good co-host you are. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. One of these days, I'm going to say, "I'm Chris Toomey," and then I'm just going to see how you roll with it, although now I'm ruining it, I should have just gone for it. [laughs] CHRIS: Nothing can prepare me for this despite the fact that you're telling me in this moment. In that future moment when you do it, I will still be completely knocked out of whack. Just like for anyone out there listening, the thing that Steph would normally have said instead of what [laughs] she just said was, "What's new in your world?" STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: And I contractually require that that is the only way she starts this question to me because I get completely lost. She's like, "How are you doing?" I just overthink it, and I get lost, and then we end up in a place like this where I'm just rambling. STEPH: Every podcast contract you have from here on out must begin with hey, Chris, what's new in your world? [laughs] I will still get to that question. I just also had to tell you my future joke. I'm going to play that. Hopefully, you'll forget, and one day I will resurface. CHRIS: I can pretty much promise you that I'm going to forget it. [laughter] STEPH: Excellent. Well, to make sure I stick within the Chris Toomey contract guidelines, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Now I just want to spend a lot of time putting together my rider. There can be no brown M&M's in the bowl. No eye contact, please. And I can only be addressed with this one question which is, to be clear, very not true, Steph. And I always record with a video because we actually like to have human faces attached to things. Anyway, I'm going to tighten this all up. When we get to the technical segment of my world, I'm going to tell you about Crispy Brussels Snack Hour, so just throwing that out there as an idea. But before we do that, I'm going to share a fun little thing which is I bought a bike, which is exciting. It's not that exciting. People have bikes. This is exciting for me. But the associated thing that is more exciting/a little terrifying is I'm going to try and run a triathlon. I'm going to try and run, swim, and bike a triathlon as they go, specifically a sprint triathlon for anyone out there that's listening and thinking, oh wow, that sounds like a thing. The sprint is the shortest of the distances, so that's what I'm going to go for. But yeah, that's a thing that I'm thinking about in my world now. STEPH: I know next to nothing about triathlons. So what is a sprint in terms of like, what is the shortest? What does that mean? CHRIS: I think there actually maybe even shorter distances but of the common, there's sprint, Olympic. I want to say half Ironman, and then Ironman are the sequence. And an Ironman, as far as I understand it, I think it's a full marathon. It's like a century bike ride or something like that. It's an astronomical amount of everything. Whereas the sprint triathlon being the shortest, I think it's a 3.6-mile run, so a little over a 5K run, a 10-mile bike ride, and a quarter-mile swim, I want to say, something like that. But they're each scaled down to the rough equivalent of a 5K but in each of the different events. So you swim, and then you bike, and then you run. And so I'm going to try that, or at least I'm going to try to try. It's in September, and now is not September. So I have a lot of time between now and then to do some swimming, which I haven't done...like, I've swum but not in a serious way, not in an intentional way. So I got to figure out if I still know how to swim, probably get better at biking, and do a little bit of running, and it's going to be great. It's going to be a lot of fun. I'm super excited about it. Only a little terrified. STEPH: I think this is where as your co-host coach, which you have not asked me to be, where I would say something about there is no try, to mimic Yoda. [laughs] CHRIS: Yep, yep. Yep. Do or do not. Sprint or sprint not. There is no trying. Oh, were you making a try pun there? STEPH: I didn't go that far, but you just brought it home. I see where you're going. [laughs] CHRIS: This is pretty much what I do professionally is I just take words, and I roll them around until I find something else to do with them. So glad that we got there together. STEPH: Well, I'm really excited to hear about this. I don't know anyone that's trained for a triathlon. I think that's true. Yeah, I don't think I know anyone that's trained for a triathlon. So I'm curious to hear about how that goes because that sounds intense, friend. CHRIS: I think so. None of the individual segments sound that bad but stitching them all together, and I think the transitions are some of the tricky parts there. So yeah, it'll be fun. It's something I find...I used to never run; that was the thing. Like, deeply true in my head was that I'm not a runner. This is just a true fact about me. And then I ran a 5K one year for...it was like a holiday 5K fun run with friends. And every bit of the training leading up to it was awful. I did Couch to 5K. I hated it. My story in my head of I'm not a runner was proven with every single training run. Man, did I hate it. And then something magical happened on the day that I actually ran the race, and it was fun. And I was out there, and there was the energy of being in this group of people. But it was competitive and not competitive in this really interesting way. And then it ended, and we were just hanging out in a parking lot, and they gave us beer. And I was like, well, this is actually delightful. Maybe I actually like this thing. And so I've run a bunch of different races. And I've found that having a race to train for, and by train, I just mean some structured attempt at running, has been really enjoyable and useful for me. So yeah, this is just ratcheting that up a tiny bit. I've done a couple of half marathons is the high watermark so far. It's a good distance. But I don't know that a full marathon makes sense; that's a real commitment. And I'm looking to move laterally rather than just keep getting more complex in my running. So we're trying the shortest possible triathlon that I know of. STEPH: I am such a believer that exercise should be fun, so I love that. Like, I'm not a runner, but then you get around people, and it's exciting. And then there's that motivation, and then there's a fun ending with beers that totally jives with me. Because sure, I can go to the gym; I can lift weights, I can make myself exercise. There's some fun to it. But I strongly prefer anything that's more of like a sport or group exercise; that's just so much more fun. Well, super cool. Well, I'm excited. I would ask you all the details about your bike, but I know nothing. Do you want to share details about your bike? There may be other people that are interested. CHRIS: Oh yeah, my bike. I went to the bike store, and I said, "Could I have a bike, please?" And then they toured me around and showed me all the fancy...they were like, "This is our most modest entry-level bike." And then they kept walking around and showing me fancier bikes. And I was like, "Can we go back to that first one? That one seemed great." STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Because it got all of the checkboxes I was looking for, which is basically it's a bike. So actually, the specifics on it are it's a hybrid bike, so like a mix between road, and I don't even know the other road bikes I know of, and maybe it's trail. But I don't think it's meant for going on the trail. But for me, it'll be fine for what I'm trying to do as far as I understand it. It's technically a fitness hybrid, which I was like, oh, fancy. It's a fitness bike; look at me go. But it was basically just like, I would like a bike. General-purpose hybrid seems like the thing that makes sense. So I got a hybrid bike. And that's where I'm at. Oh, and I got a helmet because that seems like a smart move. STEPH: Nice. Yeah, the bike I own is also one of those hybrids where it's like…because when I moved to Boston...and lots of people have the road bikes, but their tires are just so skinny; it made me nervous. And so I saw one of the hybrid bikes, and I was like, that one. That looks a little more steady and secure, so I went with that one even though it's heavier. Do you have a name for your bike? Are you going to think of a name for your bike? CHRIS: I didn't, and I wasn't planning on it. But now that you've incepted me with this idea that I have to name my bike, of course, I have to name my bike. I'm going to need a couple of weeks to figure it out, though. We're going to have to get to know each other. And you know, something will become true in the universe for me to answer that question. But as of so far, no, I do not have a name for the bike. STEPH: Cool. I'll check back in. Yeah, it takes time to find that name. I feel you. CHRIS: [laughs] Yeah, don't make up a name. I have to find what's already true and then just say it out loud. Speaking of naming things and perhaps doing so in a frivolous way, as I mentioned earlier, the more technical topic that I want to talk about, oddly, is called Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. [laughs] So, within our dev team, we have started to collect together different things that don't quite belong on the product board, or at least they're a little more confusing. They're much more technical. In a lot of cases, they are...our form handling is a little rough. And it's the sort of thing that comes up a lot in pull requests where we'll say, "I feel like this could be improved." And we're like, "Yeah, but not in this pull request." And so then it's what do you do with that? Do you put a tech debt card in the product board? You and I have talked about tech debt cards plenty of times, and it's a murky topic. But we're trying within the team to make space and a way and a little bit of process around how do we think about these sorts of things? What are the pain points as a developer is working on the system? So to be clear, this isn't there is a bug because bugs we should just fix; that's my strong feeling, or we should prioritize them relative to the rest of the work. But this is a lower level. This is as a developer; I'm specifically feeling this sort of pain. And so we decided we should have a Trello board for it. And they were like, "Oh, what should we name the Trello board?" [laughs] And I decided in this moment I was like, "You know, if we're being honest, I've named everything very boring, very straight up the middle. We don't even have that many things to name. So we have zero frivolous names within our team. I think this is our opportunity. We should go with a frivolous name. Anybody have any ideas?" And someone had worked on a team previously where maybe it was a microservice or something like that was called crispy Brussels, like, crispy Brussels sprouts but just crispy Brussels. And so I was like, "Sure, something like that. That sounds great." And then they ended up naming it that which was funny, and fun, and playful in and of itself. But then we were like, "Oh, we should have a time to get together and discuss this." So we're now exploring how regularly we're going to do it. But we were like, let's have a meeting that is the dev team getting together to review that board. And we were like, "What do we call the meeting?" And so we went around a little bit, but we ended with the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. STEPH: That's delightful. I love the idea of onboarding new people, and they just see on their calendar it's Crispy Brussels Snack Hour, come on down. [laughs] CHRIS: It's also got an emoji Brussel sprout and an emoji TV on either side of the words Crispy Brussels Snack Hour. So it's really just a fantastic little bit of frivolity in our calendars. STEPH: [laughs] That's delightful. How's that going? I don't think we've tried something like that explicitly in terms of, like you said, there are discussions we want to have, but they're not in the sprint. They're not tech debt cards that we want to create because, like you said, we've had conversations. So yeah, I'm curious how that's working for you. CHRIS: Well, so we've only had the one so far; it went quite well. We had a handful of different discussions. We were able to relatively prioritize this type of work within that. But one of the other things that we did was we had a conversation about this process, about this meeting, and the board. And whatnot. So we identified a couple of rules of the road or how we want to approach this that I think will hopefully be useful in trying to constrain this work because it's very easy to just like; nothing's ever perfect. And so this could very easily be a dumping ground for half-formed ideas that sound good but aren't necessarily worth the continued effort, that sort of thing. So the agenda for the meeting as described right now is async between meetings. Any of us can add new cards, ideally stated as problems and not solutions. So our form handling could use improvement. And then in the card, you can maybe make a suggestion of I think we could use this library or something like that. But rather than saying use this library or move to this library, we frame in terms of the problem, not necessarily the solution. And then, at the start of the meeting, any individual can champion a card so they can say, "Here's the thing that I really want everyone to know about that I've been feeling a lot of pain on." So it's a way for individuals who have added things to this to add a little bit more detail. Then using Trello as voting functionality, we each get a couple of votes, and we get to sprinkle them across different cards, and then using that now allows us collectively to prioritize based on those votes. And so the things that get voted up to the top we talk about; we prioritize some amount of work coming into the sprint. If it's actually going to turn into work, then it'll go onto the product board because ideally, it's moved from problem space to more of solution space even if the solution, the work to be done is do a spike on XYZ library or approach to form handling or whatever it is. But so ideally, it then moves on to the other board. The other thing that I felt was important is it's very easy for this to be a dumping ground for ideas. So my suggestion is at the end of the meeting, we sort by date, and we prune the oldest things. So it's like, if it's still hanging around and we haven't done it yet, and it's not getting voted up, then yes, we might feel some pain but not enough. It's not earning its place on this board. So that's my hope is we're weeding the Brussel sprouts garden that we have at the end of the meeting. That's roughly what we have now. We really only had the one, so that idea of pruning will probably come in later on. And it may be that this doesn't work out at all, and this ends up being tech debt cards that get stale and don't capture the truth. But I'm hopeful because there's definitely...there's a conversation to be had here. It's just whether or not we can make sure that conversation is useful and capturing the right amount of context and at the right points in time and all of that. STEPH: Yeah, I like it. I like the whole process you outlined. You know what it made me think of? It sounds like a technical retro, not that retros can't be technical; we bring up technical stuff all the time. But this one sounds like there was more technical discussion that was still looking for space to bring up. So the way that you mentioned that people add their thoughts, that it can be done async, and then you vote up, and then as things get stale, you remove them and focus on the things that the team voted for, that's really cool. I've never thought of having just a technical-specific retro. CHRIS: Yeah, definitely informed by retro. But again, just that slight honing the specific focus of this is just the dev team chatting about deeply dev-y things and making a little bit of space for that. I think the difficulty will be does this encourage us to work on this stuff too much? And that's the counterbalance that we have to have because this work can be critically important. But it can also be a distraction from features that we got to ship or bugs that are in the platform or other things like that. So that balancing act is something that I'm keeping in mind, but thus far, the way we structured it, I'm hopeful. And I'm interested in exploring it more, so we'll see where we get to. And I'll certainly report back as we refine the Crispy Brussels Snack Hour over time. STEPH: I feel like the opposite is true as well, where you have these types of concerns and things that you want to bring up. And even if they're on the board, once you get to sprint planning, there's a lot of context and conversation there that maybe the whole team doesn't have. It doesn't feel like the right moment to dive into this because you're trying to plan a new sprint. So then that stuff gets bumped down to the bottom or just never really discussed, or it gets archived. So I feel like the opposite is totally true, too, where you have this stuff, but then it never gets talked about because sprint planning is not the right place. So yeah, I'm really intrigued to see how that balance works out for y'all as well. CHRIS: Yeah, I think it's an exciting time, and we'll see where it goes. But like I said, I'm hopeful on it. But yeah, bikes, triathlons, and crispy Brussels, that's my world. Mid-roll Ad: Hi, friends, and now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is an application performance monitoring tool that's designed to help developers find and fix performance issues quickly. With an intuitive user interface, Scout will tie bottlenecks to source code so you can quickly pinpoint and resolve performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, and memory bloat. Scout also recently implemented external service monitoring, adding even more granularity when it comes to HTTP requests and API calls. So give Scout a try today with a free 14-day trial and experience first-hand why developers worldwide call Scout their best friend. And as an added bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. To learn more, visit scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: I have a couple of fun things that I want to share and then something that's a little more in the techie space. The first one is there's a delightful Twitter thread that caught my attention recently that I just want to share; totally not tech-related. But this person shared a thread talking about how they help everyone on their team who's older than they are, making sure that the slang that they're using is correct in its context. And so they provided some funny examples. And then, in return, they also will translate this person's frustrations into professional corporate-speak, and it's such a good thread. So if you need a good laugh, I will make sure to include a link in the show notes. The slang is really funny, but it's actually the translation of frustrations into professional corporate-speak that that's the part that resonated with me. That was really good. [laughs] CHRIS: You shared this with me outside of this conversation, and I've read through them. Listeners out there, do not sleep on this. I highly suggest reading through this thread because it is fantastic. STEPH: The other thing that I saw is Andrea Fomera, who is a Rails developer and creates a fair amount of content...I haven't been through some of that content, but I know there's content around Rails. And specifically, there is a newer course called Learn Hotwire by Building a Forum. And she has made this totally free, and I just think that is so cool. And she shared that on Twitter, so I'll be sure to include a link in that to the show notes because Hotwire is something I haven't used yet. And so I saw this free course, and I think it would be fun to dabble and go through the course. And I know there are some other people at thoughtbot that have used it and seem really happy with it or interested in using it as well. Is that something that you've used? CHRIS: I have not. I skipped over Hotwire in my adventures. I'd found Inertia and was quite happy with that. And then, in that way that, I sometimes limit the amount of things that I'm allowed to explore on the internet in hopes of actually getting some work done; I have not spent much time. But enough folks that I deeply respect are very excited about Hotwire that it remains in the like; I would love to have an afternoon just to poke around with that. So I may take a look at this, although I don't know, I'm probably still in my moratorium. I'm not allowed to look at new frameworks for a little while time period. But I hear great things. STEPH: That's fair. That's also what I've heard. I've heard great things. So yeah, I just figured I would share that in case anybody else is interested in looking for a course that they could take and also dabble at Hotwire. The other thing that's on my mind is more the type of projects that I'm really getting a lot of joy from. Because I've known about myself for a while that greenfield projects are nifty, but they're not my thing. They're not the thing that brings me a lot of joy. It's just kind of nice. You got your own space, and you're building from the ground up, cool, cool, cool. But this one, I found that the projects that I'm really starting to gravitate towards are what I've heard someone else call Rails Rescue projects. So those are the projects where they have been around for a while, or they've just been built in a way that the data modeling structure makes it really hard to implement new features. Maybe there's a lack of test coverage that makes it really risky to ship new work or to make changes. There are lots of bug reports and errors that the team is fighting with. So then that type of work comes down to where you're trying to either increase stability for the application and for users and/or you're looking to increase developer acceleration. And I really, really liked those projects. That's the type of project that I've been a part of for...I think my last couple of clients have been in that way. I don't know that they would describe it that way, that it's a Rails Rescue project. But if I can see that opportunity where I see there's a stability issue or developers are feeling a lot of pain in one area, then that's the portion of the application, the portion of the team that I'm going to gravitate towards. Or like the current work that I'm doing where we're really focused on testing and making some improvements there or reducing that pain that the team is feeling around how long CI takes to run or the flakiness because then you're having to re-verify your CI runs. I like that work. It's a bit slow and frustrating, so it does seem to require a patient person. You also have to have lots of metrics that are guiding you because you can have a lot of assumptions around I'm going to make this improvement, but it's going to take effort to get there. And it'd be great if I can validate that effort upfront. So I feel like a lot of my time is spent more around metrics, and data, and excel sheets than necessarily coding. I don't know if that's great, but it's part of the work. There's a balance there. So I just found that interesting. I don't think I would have thought this is something I was interested in until now that I've been on these projects for a while. And I've started noticing a theme where I really enjoy them. Although I realize looking back at former Stephanie days when I was going through Launch Academy and learning to code, I really thought I wanted to be in DevOps. DevOps seemed like the cool kids' corner. They knew how the internet worked. They knew what was happening. They were making it live. And I just thought it seemed really cool. For the record, it is still a cool kids' corner. But I have also learned that the work-life balance isn't great with DevOps because you just never know when you're going to be on call. And that really stood out to me as something that I didn't want to do. And I do like building some features. But essentially, it's that developer acceleration that I really liked because they were the ones that were coming and often building tools and making it easier for then people to then ship their code and get it out into the world and triage. And so I liked the fact that their users were developers versus the people using the application as much, although, I guess, technically both. But the people they were often striving to help the most was the internal team, and that resonated with me. So I guess I have eventually found my way into that space. It wasn't through DevOps, but it is now through this idea of projects that need some rescuing. CHRIS: I love that you've spent enough time now to figure out what it is that draws you in the work and the shape of projects that is meaningful to you. Interestingly, I find myself not on the opposite side of things...you know, we're always looking for a disagreement, and this isn't a disagreement, but this is a thing on which we differ a surprising amount because I do like the early-stage stuff, the new, the breaking ground, all of that exciting whatnot. But how do I not make this a more complicated statement? I appreciate that you have the point of view that you do. I think the world needs more of what you're doing than the inclination that I have, like; I want to start something bright, and fresh, and new, and I can see so much progress immediately in front of me. And this is amazing. But the hard, meaningful work like maintenance, and support, and legacy, and rescue where necessary is such a critical aspect of the work. I see this in open source so often where there are people who are like; I made an open-source project; this is great. I hacked for a bunch of weekends, and look; I made a thing. And then the support burden builds up. And open source can be this wildly undervalued thing overall. And the maintenance of open source is even more so, and you have this asymmetry between the people that are using it and don't think that their voice is one of the thousands that are out there requesting a new feature or anything like that. The handful of people that I see out there in the world that come along later in the lifespan of an open-source project and just step in to do maintenance, my goodness, is that heroic work, just quiet, necessary heroic work. And what you're describing feels sort of similar but at the project level. And I don't know; I'm sort of like silent. I'm out loud on a podcast, not silently at all judging myself because I'm like, I feel like you're doing the thing over there. That seems like a good thing. But I also like my early projects... [laughs] STEPH: I think they're...I mean, we need each other. I need you to start the code, and the applications for them to then need some help down the road [laughs] to [crosstalk 24:30]. CHRIS: But I need to do a bad enough job that we have to be rescued by you. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Hey, don't you worry, friend, I'm doing a terrible...no, I think I'm doing an okay [laughter] job. Hopefully, I'm avoiding those traps, but it's hard to know when you're writing legacy code, you know. STEPH: It is hard for the reasons we were talking about earlier. Like, those technical discussions build-up, and then if you don't really have a space to then address it, then it just keeps getting sidelined until you suddenly get to this point of it's either we come to a grinding halt because we can't ship work, or we find ways to start bringing this into our process. And so that's the other part of the Rails Rescue projects is often looking at the team's process and figuring out, okay, instead of hiring consultants to come in and then try to help with this, how else can they also integrate this into their own project? So then, once thoughtbot lives, they now have ownership of this, and they can carry it forward as well. There is an aspect of this work that I'm still working on, and it comes around to the definition of work because if you go into a team or a project that's like, hey, we really need help with X. We really need help with addressing all these errors. Or we really need help improving developer happiness or getting test coverage in place. Finding out exactly how you're going to tackle that, are you going to join a team of the other developers? Like, are you looking for more of a mentorship? Like, hey, we're going to work alongside your team to then mentor them to then bring this into their own process and their own habits, so then they feel empowered to address this in the future. Are we doing this more as a triage where then we have a specific goal or two that then we're going to meet? And then once we get stuff out of this on fire state, then maybe we start pairing with other people. Or are we going to work closely with the people who are fighting fires with the bug reports and the errors? There are a bunch of different ways that you can tackle that. And I think it really helps define the success of that engagement and then your outcomes because otherwise, I feel like you can get distracted by so much. Because there's so much that's going to try to get your attention that you want to work on and fix. So you have to be very upfront about there are different areas that we can work on. Let's figure out some metrics together that we're really going after to then help define what does success look like for this first iteration of our work? And then what's the long-term plan for this work? Then how do we keep it going forward? How do we empower the team to keep this work going forward? And that's an area that I've learned just from trial and error from being part of these projects. And I'm very interested in still cultivating that skill and figuring out what's the area that we're focused on? CHRIS: There's something that you said in there that I want to hone in on, which is the idea of you've learned from going on so many of these different projects, and you're carrying forward ideas that you have. But I think more generally, there's something interesting in what you were just saying there around you've worked on a bunch of different projects at different organizations with certain things that they were great at, with certain things that they struggled with at different sizes. And you're able to bring all that experience to bear on each project. But I think also taking a step back, as you were describing, you're like, I think I've figured out what it is that I like and the type of projects that I want to do. I cannot say enough good things about working in a consultancy for a while because, my goodness, you get to try out a bunch of different stuff. And A, you get to learn a ton about how to do the work, and how to communicate, and different technologies and all of that. But you also get to figure out what it is that you might want to double down on and lean into in terms of the work. That's definitely a big part of my story. Seven years at thoughtbot, I tried a lot of different stuff, worked at a lot of different companies. And I would describe it as I found a lot of things that I didn't want. And then there's that handful of things that I really did want, and I was able to then more intentionally pursue that. So for anyone out there that's considering it, working at a consultancy is fantastic, or at least it has fantastic elements to it. It also can be complicated as you talk about finding organizations and having to, you know, if you're brought in for a certain job, but when you get there, you're like, "Ooh, I know you want me to fix bugs, but actually, I think I just need to work with your team because they're the ones writing the bugs. And why are they writing the bugs" "Well, because the salespeople are selling things, and then we have timelines." Like, we got to start at the very top of this whole pyramid and fix it. And so it can be very complicated. But there's so much that you can learn about yourself in the process, in the work, and I adored that portion of my career. STEPH: Yeah, I totally agree. Anytime someone mentions, they're like, "Oh, consultancy work. What's that like?" And I remember it was a couple of years ago I mentioned I was working for a consultancy, and they were like, "Oh, you must travel a lot." I was like, "No, [laughter] I stay put. I just work from an office in Boston." But I remember that caught me off guard because I hadn't considered that I was supposed to travel, but that makes sense that you think of consultants that travel. But when I meet people or talk to people, and they're like, "Oh, you've been at thoughtbot for five-plus years, and how's that going? And what's it like to be at a consultancy?" And exactly what you just said, it's the variety that I really like and getting to try on so many different hats and see how different teams and processes work and then identify like, oh, that worked really well for that team, or this isn't working well for that team. I have really enjoyed that. And it can be a roller coaster because you have to get really good at onboarding. You have to go through that initial phase of like; I swear I'm smart. I will get up to speed quickly, and I will learn things. But it's a period that you just have to go through with each team that you join, but you do it twice a year, maybe three times a year. And so you get comfortable with that over time. So there are definitely some challenges that then have to fit your personality and things that work for you and bring you joy. And I completely understand that it's not for everybody, just kind of I really enjoy product work, but I also really enjoy being able to move around to different teams and help folks. CHRIS: I love the idea that as a consultant, your job is to just walk through airports and high-five every Accenture billboard in it and just go up to the wall and pay your respects. But no, no, that is not our version of consulting. [laughs] STEPH: That's why I have so much time for The Bike Shed. It's because I'm just, you know, I'm in different airports high-fiving signs. And then this is my real job; Bike Shed is my real job. CHRIS: Oh, that would be fun. STEPH: [laughs] You know, I have such a fondness of Bike Shed that now something interesting has happened where someone was like, "Oh, you're bike-shedding." And they're not being mean, but they're just like, "Oh, we're totally bike-shedding," or "This is dissolving into bike-shedding." And I'm like, oh, bike-shedding, hooray. And I'm like, oh, wait, bad. [laughter] And I have to catch myself each time. CHRIS: Yeah, we've taken away a lot of the meaning. Well, I mean, have we or do we live up to it every single week? Who can say? But I, too, have a fondness for this phrase, perhaps not aligned with what it is actually meant to signify. STEPH: On a slightly different tech-related note, there is a gem that I'm really excited to check out. I saw it mentioned on the paralleltests gem, which is what helps you run your tests in parallel, and it's what we're currently using. But you can group your tests in different ways. And right now, we're using the runtime strategy where essentially then we use the output from RSpec where we know how long each file took to run. And then paralleltests will then use that data to then figure out, okay, how should I split up your test file? So then try to balance them as evenly as possible. We're at that point, though, where we've talked about tentpoles, so we have certain files that, say, take 10 minutes; other files will only take two minutes. And that balance is really throwing off our ability to then bring down the CI build time. So on paralleltests, there's reference to another gem called parallelsplit_test, where then you can run multiple test scenarios that are in one file but then split them out across different processes or different machines. And that is exactly what I want in my life right now. I haven't checked it out yet, so I feel like I'm giving a daily sync update of like, I'm going to go off and explore this thing. I will report back and see how it goes. [laughs] In the past, I usually try to say, "I've tried this thing, and this is how it went," nope, opposite today. I am sharing the thing I'm going to try, and then hopefully, it goes well. CHRIS: Well, either way, we should definitely report back. That's the truth. I like that you're leading us into this and giving us a preview. But then yeah, we'll see where we get to. That does sound like the thing you want, though. So I hope it goes well. STEPH: Yeah, we've learned at this point where we are splitting work across different machines that until we address some of those tentpole concerns, adding more machines won't help us because then a machine's going to run as long as the longest file. So we've been doing some manual work to split up those files. That's not the best, but it does help you see some results. So then, at least you know you're making progress. So now we really need to find a way to automate that because we don't want someone to have to manually figure out where are the tentpoles, split those files up, commit that, and then keep track of, like, do we have another tentpole on the horizon? We really need a gem or something to help us automate that process. So yeah, I will be happy to report back. MIDROLL AD: And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Studio 3T. When you're developing applications, it can often be a chore to work with your underlying data. Studio 3T equips you with a complete set of tools to work with MongoDB data. From building queries with drag and drop, to creating complex aggregation pipelines; Studio 3T makes it easy. And now, there's Studio 3T Free, a free edition of Studio 3T, which delivers an essential core of tools. This means you can get started, for free, with Studio 3T Free, and when you're ready, you can upgrade and enjoy even more features through Studio 3T Pro and Studio 3T Ultimate. The different editions unlock more tools and additional integrations with MongoDB, SQL, Oracle, and Sybase. You can start today by downloading Studio 3T Free, which also includes a 30-day free trial of all the features of Studio 3T Ultimate, so you can try out some of the enterprise features as well. No credit card required. To start your trial, head to studio3t.com/free. That's studio3t.com/free. STEPH: Pivoting just a bit, we have a listener question. This question comes from Steve Polito. And Steve wrote in, "Longtime listener, first-time thoughboter." Yay. Yay is my addition. Anything that goes up in voice is probably my addition, [laughs] just so people know. All right, back to what Steve said. "Why do so many developers and agencies, thoughtbot included, replace the default test suite in Rails with RSpec? Not only does Rails provide a fully functional test suite by default," looking at you Minitest, "but it's also well-documented and even provides the ability to run system tests. Rails is built on the principle of convention over configuration. And it seems odd to me that so many developers want to override such a fundamental piece of framework." Thanks in advance, [singing] Steve Polito. Steve, I hope it's okay I sang your name [laughs] because we're here now. That is an awesome question. I'm going to give what may be less of an awesome answer which is, well, one; Steve highlights that people will then replace Minitest with RSpec. I haven't done that. I haven't actually gone into a project and said, "Okay, we need to replace your test suite and bring in RSpec instead." But if I'm starting out a project, I do have a heavy preference for RSpec, and frankly, that's just from experience. Like, that's what I was raised on, to say it in that way. [laughs] RSpec is what I know; it's what I'm used to. It's what, even when I joined thoughtbot, was just the framework that we used for all of our testing and what we focused on so heavily. So frankly, for me, it's just a really strong bias. I know it's something that I'm really good at. I know it's something that works really well. I know it's well-documented. I know it's also very accessible for other people to use. But actually replacing it on a different project, I don't think I would do that. I'd have to have a really strong reason, or maybe if we haven't actually started testing anything yet, to then replace it because that feels a bit aggressive to me. But then it just depends on the situation, I suppose. But yeah, overall, I just default to RSpec because that's what I'm accustomed to, and it's the testing framework that I know. CHRIS: Yeah, I think my answer is largely the same. It's the thing that I've worked with by far the most. Similarly, I've been on projects that were using Minitest, and therefore I used Minitest because it's definitely not worth the effort to switch. But in a lot of...well, I will say this, I've much less experience, and this may be less true over time. But there were many things that drew me to RSpec, and that continues to be interesting to me in the RSpec world. Even things as small as the assertion syntax, assertequal is the method that's, you know, this is how you do an assertion in Minitest, and it's assertequal expected, actual. That's the order of the arguments. It's expected first and then actual. That makes sense, probably with the expected, but I would get that wrong constantly. I do get that sort of thing wrong. They're just positional arguments that there's nothing about this that tells me which way to go. And so it's very easy to get failure messages that are inverted, and so it's just this tiny little thing. But with RSpec, we end up with expect and then in parentheses, the thing that we are expecting to equal the other thing, and it just reads a little more honestly. It fits within the Ruby mindset in my world. I want my code to be as expressive as possible, and Minitest feels much lower level to me. It feels more, you know, assert as a word is just...I'm not asserting. That just feels so formal. And so these are, again, to be clear, very, very small things, but they all add up. And there's a reason that we're using Ruby overall. And there's a reason that we're using Rails is this expressiveness is a big part of it for me, so I'll cling to that. I'll hold on to that as something that's true. Also, Rspec's mocking support, rspec-mocks as the library, I found to be really fantastic, and I've grown very comfortable working with it. And I know how and where to use that. I also have so much built-up knowledge, like the idea of when to use let and not use let in RSpec. It's just this deep thing that I know about. I'm sure there's an equivalent in the Minitest world, but I would have to have a different understanding in argument, and that conversation would just feel different. I think the other thing that's worth saying is this is a default for us at this point that I personally have not felt the need to reconsider. When I've worked on projects that have used Minitest, I certainly wasn't called to it. I wasn't like, oh, this seems really interesting; I'm going to lean into this more. I was like, I miss RSpec. And some of that is, again, just familiarity. But at the end of the day, we only have so much time to do things. And so, I firmly stand by my not reconsidering my testing option at this point. Like, RSpec does the things that I want. It does it really well. Critically, I'm able to build a system and write a test suite and maintain that test suite over time and have it tell me the truth as to whether or not my application should be deployed to production. That is the measure. That's the thing that I care about. I think it's maybe a little bit slower than Minitest, but I'm fine with that. I have solutions to that problem. And the thing that I care about is when the test suite is green, do I feel confident deploying? RSpec has helped me for years on that journey. And I've never questioned whether or not I should go back to the drawing board and revisit that consideration. So initially, it was probably because it was the thing that we were all using, and then that is for me why it has stuck around. And I love RSpec. I think how many episodes have we just said, "Thanks, RSpec," as a little aside? So we do love it in a deep way. STEPH: Probably not enough episodes have we said that. [laughs] Yeah, I like what you said where you haven't felt the need to switch over or to move away from RSpec. And I wonder, looking back at some of the earlier projects that I joined that were using RSpec, I don't know if maybe they chose RSpec at that time because RSpec had more of those features built-in, and Minitest was still working on those. Maybe they were parallel at the time; I'm not sure. But I like what you said about you just haven't had a need to go back and change. At this point, if I switched over to Minitest, it would definitely be a learning curve for me, which is totally fine. But yeah, I'm just happy with it, so I stick with it. And I also appreciate that idea that, yeah, unless you're new in a project, I wouldn't encourage someone to then switch over to something else unless I feel like there's just a lot of pain for some reason with the current testing setup. There has to be a reason. There has to be a drive. It can't be just a personal bias of like, I know this thing, so I want to use it. There's got to be a better reason that benefits the whole team versus just a personal preference. But overall, I think it comes down to for us; it's just a choice because it's the familiar choice. It's the one that we know. But I think Minitest and RSpec are both so widely supported. I was thinking about that convention over configuration. And yes, Rails ships with Minitest, but RSpec is so common that I don't feel like I'm breaking convention at that point. They're both so widely supported and used that I feel very comfortable going with either option. And then it's just my personal preference for RSpec. So thanks, Steve, for sending in that question. And for anyone else that has a question that you would love to share with Chris and I, you can reach us in a couple of different ways. You can reach us on Twitter via @_bikeshed. You can also go to the website, bikeshed.fm/content. We will drop some links in the show notes. But if you go there, then you can send a question or also email us directly at hosts@bikeshed.fm. And we're running a little low on listener questions, so we would love to have a listener question from you. And we would love to talk about anything that y'all want to talk about, okay, within reason, you know, triathlons, Brussel sprouts, things like that. All of that falls within the wheelhouse. CHRIS: Normal stuff. STEPH: Normal stuff, yeah. CHRIS: And to be clear, despite the fact that Steve did recently become a thoughtboter, you don't have to be a thoughtboter to send in a listener question. [laughs] In fact, it's much more common to not be a thoughtboter when sending in a listener question. But we'll take them from anybody. We're happy to chat with you. STEPH: On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeee!!!!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Steph celebrates Utah's adoption day and Daylight Savings Time and troubleshoots a CI build time that had suddenly spiked for a client project using TeamCity. She also shares a minor update regarding the work that thoughtbot is doing to scale horizontally and add more machines quickly and efficiently to process more RSpec tests. Chris was alarmed by logs and unknown-unknowns and had some fun using Git down. Git bless his heart! This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. TeamCity (https://www.jetbrains.com/teamcity/) lograge (https://github.com/roidrage/lograge) Cleaning up local git branches deleted on a remote (https://www.erikschierboom.com/2020/02/17/cleaning-up-local-git-branches-deleted-on-a-remote/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. Today is Utah's adoption day. So officially, one year ago, we adopted Utah. He's about a year and a half years old now because we got him when he was around the six-month mark. So Utah, aka Raptor, which is the nickname that you gave him, and aka UD [spelling] the cutie is his other nickname...which I've forgotten, why do you call him Raptor? Why is that a name? CHRIS: Because there's a Utah Raptor. STEPH: A person? [laughs] CHRIS: No, I think it was like the fossils were found in Utah. But the Utah Raptor is a type of dinosaur. And so when I heard Utah, my brain went to Raptor, and then I dropped the Utah sort of a Cockney rhyming slang sort of thing. Shout out to Matt Sumner real quick. But yeah, Raptor. STEPH: Cool. Cool. Cool. I'm so glad I asked. Now I know. I just accepted it when you called him Raptor. I was like, sure, he can be a Raptor. [laughs] CHRIS: I feel like that says a lot about me that you were just like, okay, why not? STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: That's different and has no apparent connection to the actual name of the creature, but that's fine. I might be a nonsense person. STEPH: Or me for accepting it. You share a lot of nonsense, and I accept a lot of nonsense. That might be our dynamic. [laughs] So it works out. CHRIS: That just may be our dynamic. STEPH: That's why I'm always so nice with the good idea, bad idea, or even terrible. [laughs] CHRIS: You're like, it's all nonsense 100% of the time, but yeah. So Utah is one year into living with you folks. So that's lovely. STEPH: Yeah, and he's growing up so well. Oh, and I've been training him for one of his latest tricks. I'm very excited because it seems to be really sinking in. So every night, we take him out for his final bathroom potty but then before we go to bed. And one night, for some reason, I started singing The Final Countdown. [singing] It's the final countdown. But I started singing it's the final potty instead. So now, when it's time to go out for the bathroom late at night, I look at him, and I start singing. And I start singing [vocalization], and it's working. He's starting to recognize that when I started singing that tune, he's like, okay, and he gets up from his comfy spot, and we go outside. And it brings me a lot of joy. CHRIS: That is perhaps the best use of Pavlovian conditioning that I've ever heard of. Also, I really appreciate that you both mentioned the final countdown but then said just in case anyone is unfamiliar with the tune, let me hum a few bars. Thank you for doing the service there. STEPH: I have been singing so much this week. I don't know if Joël Quenneville, who I've been pairing with a lot, appreciates that. Sorry, Joël. But I have been singing so much. And I think that's post-vacation vibes. That's what vacation does for you. And it helps you get back into, you know, lots of singing or at least it does for me. Let's see, what else is going on this week? So this is the week that we have DST in the USA, so Daylight Savings Time, aka summertime, where we advance our clocks so everybody...although this is going to be late. So at this point, by the time people are hearing this, you're going to have already dealt with all those bugs that have crept up. But those are creeping up this week, where people are starting to notice a lot of those flaky specs that aren't technically flaky. They're actually breaking for real reasons because they were tested in a way that shows that they're not considering that daytime boundary. CHRIS: It's as if you spend some of your time fixing flaky specs that that's where your mind goes with DST. Because I'm going, to be honest, part of what you're doing right now is telling me that this is coming up, and I didn't know. I had forgotten about that, which is very exciting, except you lose an hour asleep for this one, right? Or is it that you gain? STEPH: We're going forward. Yeah, it's fall back and then spring forward. That's how I remember it. CHRIS: Worth it. I'll take the sunshine at night. STEPH: Yeah, it's supposed to be so we have more sunshine during the daylight hours. That's the reasoning for the nonsense, the headaches. On some more technical news, when I came back from vacation, we noticed that the CI build time has suddenly spiked for the client project where previously we were averaging, I'd say, around 25-26 minutes. There's definitely a range there. But that seems to be pretty consistent. And right now, builds are taking more about 35, sometimes upwards to 45 minutes. And so it's been a bit of who done it or what caused it adventure of figuring out why, what's causing the spike. And so Joël and I have been pairing heavily on that to investigate what's going on and learned a lot of features that TeamCity offers and just diving into this particular issue. One thing that brought me joy is by looking through all the builds that are taking place on TeamCity. As I noticed, there are a number of builds that are using the RSpec selective testing that I added where if you only change a test to then we're only going to run those tests instead of the whole suite. And it was one of those changes where I thought, okay, maybe someone's going to get use out of this. Joël and I will probably get use out of this. But I'm actually seeing it about one every ten build something like that. And I'm just like, oh, this is awesome. One, people are improving tests. That's amazing. And then two, that then they're benefiting especially while we have this spike going on. So that was a suggestion from you that I appreciate because that is paying dividends. And so that brought me a lot of joy while looking into this other issue, which we haven't resolved yet. We think it has something to do with how the tests are being balanced across all the different parallelized processes. And we think that there is an imbalance that has happened. And then that's what's really throwing things off. So we can see that one particular process is taking around 26-27 minutes, but then the next process that's highest in time is only taking 17 minutes. So it's like, why is there suddenly ten more minutes that's being attributed to one process? And why is that not getting spread out? So still looking into that. That's the mystery for this week. But that's mostly what's going on in my world. What's up in your world? CHRIS: What is up in my world? I'm going to say a quite alarming thing happened this week, which was we were investigating some changes, or we were investigating some behavior where the particular portion of the system ended up in the logs, just sort of combing through. And I happened to notice this one log line that...our logs tend to be somewhat verbose. They're JSON-structured log format. I've talked about the lograge setup that we use in the past, but there's a bunch. These are long lines of JSON-structured data. But this line that caught my eye was not. It was just some text, and it said, "Unreported event: and then some other texts." And I was like, ah, what? Who didn't report which to when? I did some digging, eventually figured out that this was Sentry. Sentry was logging that it had not reported an event to us. But had we not randomly happened upon this in the logs, which is sort of a random thing to see, we would have missed this, which is scary. I mean, it was missed for a little while. And so Sentry was not reporting certain events. We had made a change, particularly to Sentry's before_send configuration. So there's a way that you can do some amount of filtering client-side or client being, in this case, our Ruby app. So that's like the client-side of Sentry, and then there's their server backend. So that would, weirdly, that's the way the client-server work in this case. But the idea is you can do some proactive filtering of being like, you know what? Rather than sending a ton of noise...because we know there's this one error that we can't stop for reasons. It's a JavaScript Chrome extension that's getting embedded in the app. That doesn't mean anything; that's just noise. Rather than even sending those over to Sentry, let's proactively filter them out. before_send is a function within the Sentry SDK that allows you to do this. But it turns out if you raise an error in there, if you happen to have introduced something that doesn't cover all the possible edge cases, then Sentry will just not let you know and will log, interestingly, that they did not report the event. I'm going to throw it out there that I would love if Sentry were to say Sentry me...that's where I put something very bad happened, and you should look at it. And they're just like, well, something pretty darn bad happened. We'll log it. Supposedly, my understanding is before_send can be used to filter out like PII or other things like that. And so their failure mode is quiet intentionally. That's my understanding as to maybe why this is true. I wish there were configuration that said, no, please fail as loudly as humanly possible. But that was terrifying. STEPH: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to piggyback on what you just said for a minute because I was also thinking earlier and related to the sudden spike in our CI builds where I was like, it would be really nice if there's...because I suspect there's one particular change that has caused this to happen. I don't know what it is yet, but that's just my suspicion. And it would be great if when that build ran, let's say that build went from an average of 25 minutes and suddenly we have a build that took 35 minutes if TeamCity had alerted us or if something more aggressive had to happen to say like, "Hey, your team..." or maybe it's just in the logs somewhere. Okay, not in the logs somewhere more visible on the build where it's like, "Hey, your build took an extra 10 minutes compared to the average, just letting you know. I don't have a diagnosis for you, but we're just letting you know." So yeah, plus-one to getting those types of alerts out to people and notifying us when there's an average that's not being met or when things aren't getting logged like you'd expect them to. CHRIS: As part of what we were doing in the logs...like how to get to that anomaly detection place is a really interesting question in my mind. And this is a case where we were in the logs, and we wanted to instrument more things. So we have a bunch of stuff right now that goes in. It's either a warn or error log level. And the error should be pretty rare because, ideally, those are going to Sentry instead, but we still want to keep an eye on them. But we introduced a new search within log entries, which is what we're using for logging aggregation and searching. And the idea was to group all warn-level messages and to group it on the message string. So ideally, what this allows us to do is say, "Oh, we've seen 200 instances in the past two days of this new warning that we didn't see before." The difficulty is, as a human, I would see unhandled error blah as one bucket of warning, or I might want to see it that way. I might want to group it on part of the message. So it becomes really hard to find the signal in the noise on these, but at least it was a start. We now have this little graph for both warning and error-level log messages that we can see are there any new anomalies that are occurring pretty regularly? But this, again, was just this weird edge case where we were lucky to catch it. But it was very scary that it was just throwing stuff away. So the universe might have been true that our error log did get a little quiet for a little while, which was nice, but it wasn't 100%. It wasn't like we were at 10 hours, an hour, and then we went to zero. It was like some, and then we went to a lower number because we were still getting some. We were only filtering out certain ones. But yeah, it's how do you know at runtime that the system is doing the thing? This is increasingly the question that I have in my mind. But yeah, so that was the thing. We fixed it. It's fixed now. I also set up an alert in log entries to say, "If you ever see this particular phrase again unhandled or unreported," then please tell me about that post-haste. So we've got that now. STEPH: That's perfect. That's what I was about to ask us if there's a way that you could add a filter or add a warning for that anomaly detection. So that sounds great. CHRIS: I've got that now because this became a known-unknown, but there are still the unknown-unknowns, and there are so many of them. And I can't know them is my understanding of how they work. I would love to know them. I would love to pin them down and be like, "Hey, what are you doing here?" Someday maybe. But anyway, that was the thing in my world. [laughs] It was fun. It was a great little time. What else is up in your world? STEPH: I feel like you can always judge the level of fun based on how high someone's voice goes. No, it was fun. It was great. It was fun. [laughter] CHRIS: I believe that is an accurate assessment, yes. STEPH: I've caught myself doing that. I'm like, my voice is extra high, so I don't think I really mean that when I'm using the word fun. [laughs] Mid-roll Ad Hi, friends, and now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is an application performance monitoring tool that's designed to help developers find and fix performance issues quickly. With an intuitive user interface, Scout will tie bottlenecks to source code, so you can quickly pinpoint and resolve performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, and memory bloat. Scout also recently implemented external service monitoring, adding even more granularity when it comes to HTTP requests and API calls. So give Scout a try today with a free 14-day trial and experience first-hand why developers worldwide call Scout their best friend. And as an added bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. To learn more, visit scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. I do have a small update that I can share regarding the work that we're doing to be able to scale horizontally. So we want to be able to add more machines quickly and easily so we can then process more RSpec tests. And we have discovered with TeamCity that we're pushing forward on that particular path because they have something called a composite build. And with a composite build, it's essentially your parent or your supervisor build. And then, from there, you can create other subsequent builds. So we can then say, all right, let's have multiple builds that then run the RSpec test, and then we can separate in that way. And right now, we're going about it in the hacky way because we just want a proof of concept. So we are saying specifically in this particular step, we want you to run spec models. And in this other process, we want you to run these particular tests just because we want to see how this works. And so far, the aggregation seemed great. So when you look at that composite parent build, it's showing you how each of those builds are doing. It's also reporting back the failures. It's even de-duping them. Because initially, we set it up where we were running the full test suite in parallel on both of these builds, [laughs] not what we wanted, fixed that. But it did highlight that it was de-duping the test failures. So that part was nice. So the UI seems great and seems quite very capable of doing this. Composite build seems to be the way that we can do this with TeamCity. But we're still diving into actually getting the metrics like, okay, how much is this actually going to speed us up? And what does this look like if we want to be able to scale up to say from 5 to 10 where we went from 5 machines to 10 machines? And that part doesn't feel graceful because then you have to go in and change the configuration and copy the configuration to then add a new build that then is going to process RSpec test. So other services like Buildkite make it very easy. I can't remember if it's like literally a slider or if it's a number that you enter. But you can say, "This is how many processes that I want to run," in which it would be a lot nicer for that actual scaling. Versus TeamCity, it feels far more manual and intentional where you then have to duplicate and add those settings. But it's a really good first step because, as we'd highlighted before, there's a lot of risk in moving over from an existing infrastructure to something totally new. So if we can have some wins with this approach and help out the team and reduce build time, then that gives us more grace period. So then we can assess, okay, do we really want to move over to Buildkite? What do we want to do next? What does this look like? And have further discussions. So that's a small update there. Next time I should have some more updates around actual data on how things are looking. CHRIS: Oh, cool. Yeah, I appreciate the update and definitely interested to hear how this continues to play out. This is a large project that you're undertaking and all the facets and whatnot, so yeah, super interested to hear the continued journey of the test build time reduction. Let's see, other news in my world. I've been exploring something that I'm intrigued by the idea. Let's go with that. [chuckles] That's going to be my start. I always start with these lead-ins that build things up too much. But I am finding a small tension in trying to just keep up with what the team is doing, which is a wonderful place to be. Our team is growing. We actually have someone new joining tomorrow, very exciting. But I'm trying to find the right version of I don't want to block things. I don't want all code review to have to go through me. But I do want to keep an eye on everything. I want to kind of know what we're doing collectively. And ideally, mostly, that's me being like, yep, that makes sense. We're doing that. I remember that, cool. Wait, what's this? And rarely, occasionally, there'll be a point where I'm like, oh, I want to intervene here. I want to have a conversation. I want to rethink how we're building this. And so it's moving from a place of any sort of blocking synchronous review or the necessity for that to ad hoc post-review sort of thing. And so the way that I'm trying to poke around with this, of course, I'm writing some code to do it because of me. So the two systems that we're using that seem most of interest are GitHub and Trello. And so it turns out GitHub has a wonderful search, and I can create a search that is parameterized like create a URL that jumps into a parameterized search saying, "Show me everything that was merged in the past X amount of time, " so I can say the past two days because I haven't checked it in two days. So I'll see all of the PRs that were merged, and some of them I'll have already reviewed. So I maybe could even filter further there. But for anything that I haven't seen, I'm like, oh, what was this? What was that? What was this other change? Similarly, on Trello, there's a way via the API to get all of the card update actions. And then I can filter down to say whenever a card was moved, which in our system that means...we're doing Kanban-style, so a card being moved from this column to that column that tells me that someone is progressing forward with some work. And then I can further filter down because, again, I don't really want to be blocking on this. I'm most interested in what have we done or completed in the most recent timeframe. And thus far, it's an interesting data set. And it's an interesting way to switch the problem around such that I'm not feeling...there was FOMO or organizational FOMO is perhaps how I would describe it of like, I want to try and keep an eye on stuff and make sure I'm responsive. But I'm now blocking, so I have to step away. But now I'm worried that I'm missing things. And so I'm trying to find that good middle spot. And this feels like an interesting exploration of that. STEPH: I'm intrigued when you mentioned the card moving over, so then you can tell things are progressing. And then you're answering the question of what did we do in this particular chunk of time? When you move stuff over, is there a clear sweep of we have finished this sprint, and then you have the date of that sprint at the top, and so then you essentially have a column that represents all the work that was done in that sprint? Is that an approach that you're using? Because that's the one that immediately came to mind for me when you're wondering what was accomplished during this week or two-week period? CHRIS: Interesting question. So we're not really doing sprints, or there are no real iterations. We're doing more of the I think Kanban is the way to describe it. But basically, we have a prioritized next up column. And then every day, I can say continuously, the work has the same shape, which is pick up the next most important thing, work on it, move it through the various columns. I did introduce in Trello just the idea of, like, here's a month, so we can see by month what we're doing, but that's too low granularity in my mind. I want to review it a month at a time. The whole point of this in my mind is to see stuff as it's happening vaguely in real-time but not requiring me to constantly be monitoring everything. So it gives me an opportunity at the end of the day to be like, what happened today? What do we do? But yeah, so there's no real sprint that I would couple this to because we're not really doing sprints. STEPH: Got it. Yeah, that gives me more context. I understand why you're then looking for ways as to how to answer that question of, like, what did we accomplish in this week or a particular time period? CHRIS: And to name it, this is not an intention on my part to be like, I need to control everything. I need to make all the decisions. I very much want to empower the team. And in my mind, this is actually a mechanism to empower the team. I want to give them more freedom and then have the opportunity occasionally to check back in and be like, oh, actually, there was some context that was missing here the way we did this. Let's actually unwind that, do it this other way for these reasons. But it gives me the ability to potentially have that conversation after the fact. We're trying very hard to have the tickets be as representative and complete, and well documented as possible. But that's very difficult to get to. And there are also things that I don't even know to mention. Again, I think the critical bit is this is not an attempt to make sure everything aligns with what I think; it's more I want to empower the team to move without me most of the time. And then, where there are things that potentially should have a small conversation or a redirection, then we have the ability to do that. And so, I'm trying to build that back into my workflow while basically loosening up my connection to the work in progress at any given point in time. STEPH: So you just touched on a topic that's really interesting to me or a particular space. You're doing a very kind thing where you want tickets to have lots of context so that people feel confident when they're picking up what's the action item to be done. And for someone that's new, that's incredibly helpful, and I think more important since they are new to that world. But in general, my spicy take of the moment is going to be as developers; that's part of our job. If we notice that context is missing or if we're not clear about the action item, is to think through what is it that I'm missing? Who do I reach out to? Who can I go to for help? How can I scope this work? All of that, to me, is very much part of our role. And the idea that tickets always have to be perfectly curated, which I don't think you're saying, but you're just trying to be extra helpful. But if someone were to have that expectation, I think that expectation is wrong. And I do think it is part of our work that then we help make sure that tickets are well-scoped and well-defined and have those conversations with the people creating the tickets or creating them ourselves. CHRIS: I love the clarification there, and I'm definitely in agreement with you. I don't know how picante of a take it is. I would be intrigued. Listeners, let us know. Are we breaking your mold of what things should be? But I do like the idea that it is a conversation so back and forth. And so the idea that as developers, there should just be this very clear list of things to do and you just kind of pick up a card and heads down, just get it done, I don't think that should be the mold. But I do think; ideally, the why is the most important thing that I think should be in a card. So ideally, a card should have little in terms of technical implementation notes and should have more in terms of here's the goal that we're going for, here's the problem, or here's the thing that we're trying to solve. And then maybe a suggestion of like, I think it could be an X, Y, and Z, but I'm not sure. Or we want to be able to send transactional emails, but I don't know any more than that. Our goal is to engage users. Like that last sentence, that last little bit of our goal is to engage users is a critical, critical data point, versus our goal is to solve for a regulatory and compliance issue. It's like, well, those are different. And they will lead to different solutions and different implementations and all that. So yeah, I definitely share the idea that cards don't need to be perfectly specified. And if anything, I think I'm closer to that than it probably sounded like I was. But for that reason, it's totally possible in my mind, that work will be done in a way that after the fact, I'm like, "Oh, sorry, there was a misunderstanding here. Let's revisit this work." And so, my goal is to try and stay connected and have a feedback mechanism at the end of the process. So when the work is done, be able to spot-check it rather than trying to have to watch it as it's happening or proactively define everything in excruciating detail such that exactly the right things happen all the time. So I'm moving to a place of ask forgiveness, not permission. That's the wrong analogy here. But that idea of like, we can clean it up after the fact, that's fine. And we don't need to try and prevent any sort of things, or at least that's what I'm exploring. STEPH: Yeah, I love that you highlighted having the why. I adore that when that's on a card just because I then I want to know the goal because then that's going to help me ask questions and think about scoping versus if it's like a very specific implementation, then I feel so narrowly scoped that I don't feel as confident that I can be like, okay, I know why I'm doing this versus I just feel very directed to do a thing, and that's incredibly helpful. I have also felt the pain that you're mentioning where it does feel like a ticket has all of the work clearly defined, and the goals, and the whys, and it can have everything there, but just something gets lost in the communication. And so someone implements something in a way that is how they interpreted the work versus it's not actually what the ticket or what the goal of the work was to be done. So I appreciate that where you are looking for ways to tweak things to make sure that whoever is picking up that ticket will have the same interpretation that the author intended for them to have. And then if that does happen, and things get misaligned, then you chat and figure out ways to improve it. I think that's the point that I was really thinking about, and my air quotes, "hot take," is that as developers, a big part of our job is communication, and then also sharing the knowledge that we have with other people. And so if someone is expecting that they can just always pick up work and never talk to someone, I don't know, maybe you're in the wrong business. [laughs] That's my hot take. CHRIS: I, for one, like the hot take. It is nice and ever so slightly spicy. STEPH: Thanks. Yeah, I just think communication is incredibly important. Earlier, you mentioned, I don't think we were on mic at the moment, but you mentioned something about a new Git alias. And I am very intrigued on hearing about what you've added, what it does, all the details. CHRIS: All the details, that's probably too many, but some of the details I can certainly provide. So I have two new Git aliases; one is Git gone, which is probably the heart of the whole thing. And so the background of this is I found myself pushing the green merge button on GitHub more. We've introduced some branch protection stuff, which I've talked about in previous episodes. And I dream of the day that one of my good, good friends at GitHub will give me access to the merge queue beta. Please, please, I implore thee. But in the interim, still clicking the green merge button more often than not. STEPH: Wait. I have to ask to help you in this dream. Are you forwarding these episodes to someone? You can just take a clip of you saying, "Please, please, please give me access," [chuckles] and just forwarding that or mentioning someone at GitHub or GitHub in general. CHRIS: Just leaving voicemails for people with a Bike Shed section of me begging for access to the merge queue beta? STEPH: Yeah. [laughs] CHRIS: No, I'm not. But maybe I need to up my game. You're right. [laughs] Someday, I'll get there. And that will only exacerbate this issue that I'm feeling, which is again, I'm clicking the merge button. That's what's happening. And as a result, that means my local branch is now like it's done its job. You've served me well. And in the Marie Kondo sense, I need to hold you up, thank you for your service, and then let you go. But I obviously wanted to automate that. So Git gone does that automation, and it was fun. So I found a blog post which we'll include in the show notes, that had most of the pieces here, but it was still fun to play with the shell pipeline in a way that I hadn't in a while. So it does a Git fetch and then git-for-each-ref with a particular structured format that references the upstream of the branch then uses awk to search for the word gone. Because Git, if you print it out in this particular way using this format, it will say the local branch name and then the upstream. But if you've deleted the upstream, it will specifically say (gone) in brackets, so you can actually use that to filter them down. And then I pipe that to git branch-D so..well, xargs of course. I love a little shell pipeline. As an aside, these are fun little things to build up. So that is Git gone. And then the other one that I have is Git down, which is what I use more. And Git down works on top of Git gone, so it's Git checkout main and and Git pull and and Git gone. But that means I get to type Git down into my terminal whenever a branch happens to get merged in the upstream land. [laughs] STEPH: [laughs] Oh, that's adorable. I love it. I like the Git gone, and yeah, I like the Git down just for fun. You are inspiring me where I now really want a Git bless your heart that's like maybe a Git blame or a Git revert. [laughs] CHRIS: I've definitely seen people do Git praise as an alias for Git blame. STEPH: That's nice. CHRIS: But Git bless your heart is...ooh, I love that. STEPH: [laughs] I might have to add that just so I can type it, and then someone can say, "What are you doing?" [laughs] Cool, I love it. CHRIS: Little things, little fun bits to add to your day and to automate and have a little fun while you're at it. So that's where I'm at. STEPH: All about the communication and fun. That's what I'm here for and the singing. Let's not forget the singing. CHRIS: And the singing, of course. STEPH: [singing] On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's shall. Oh. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Bye. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

The Tilton Talk Show- This weeks BCFC Tilton Talk chat with Nick, Paul, Alan, Craig, Mark, Oliver and Chris All things BCFC, Please share! Including a look at the recent games, upcoming games, last 15, Scarfgate and the new game takeing the whole nation by storm...Squad Game...Produced/Edited by Chris BrowneThanks to Boylesports-Garrison Coffee Company and M.A.Reilly French Polishing www.tiltontalk.com#freeukraineSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/srbmedia. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/srbmedia.

The Tilton Talk Show- This weeks BCFC Tilton Talk chat with Nick, Paul, Alan, Craig, Mark, Oliver and Chris All things BCFC, Please share! Including a look at the recent games, upcoming games, last 15, Scarfgate and the new game takeing the whole nation by storm...Squad Game... Produced/Edited by Chris Browne Thanks to Boylesports-Garrison Coffee Company and M.A.Reilly French Polishing www.tiltontalk.com #freeukraine

Steph joins Chris in trying new things! For her, it's a new email client – the Newton email client – because she really wants to love her inbox. She also talks about implementing a suggestion from Chris on improving CI speed. Chris continues his search for the perfect to-do list app. (It's not going great.) But he has made hiring progress and is excited to move on to the next step: onboarding. Together they answer a listener question who asked for advice on crafting project estimates for clients. This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Services down? New Relic (https://newrelic.com/bikeshed) offers full stack visibility with 16 different monitoring products in a single platform. Newton (https://newtonhq.com/) Subscribe to Email Newsletters in Feedbin (https://feedbin.com/blog/2016/02/03/subscribe-to-email-newsletters-in-feedbin/) GitHub - Shopify/packwerk (https://github.com/Shopify/packwerk) Sunsama (https://sunsama.com/) TickTick: To-do List, Tasks, Calendar, Reminder (https://ticktick.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: I am now recording. STEPH: Me too. CHRIS: [laughs] That's my recording voice. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: That's how you can tell. STEPH: I just like how it sounds suspicious where we're like; I'm now recording, so be careful. [laughs] CHRIS: This is now on the record. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hello. Happy, happy Friday. Oh, I have something that I'm excited or intrigued about. I don't know. Okay, I'm hyping it up. [laughs] But I'm realizing I'm also very skeptical of it. CHRIS: This is the best sales pitch I've ever heard. I'm so excited to hear what this is. [laughs] STEPH: I am trying a new email client; it is the Newton email client. And I so want to love my inbox. I want to check on it. I want to help it grow. Okay, that's the opposite. I want to help get through all the emails that come through, but I just want to love it. I want it to be a good space that I want to go to. And I just hate email so much. And it always feels like this chore that it's really hard for me to bring myself to do, but yet it's really important because a lot of good things come through email. So this is my rambly way of saying I'm trying the Newton email client because I saw on Twitter from Andrew Mason, who has very similar feelings that I do about email, where we are just not fans of it. And we rarely check it and have declared email bankruptcy at several points in our life. And he's also one of the co-hosts for Remote Ruby. But I saw on Twitter that Andrew was talking about the Newton email client and how it actually made him feel that he enjoyed writing and looking through his inbox. And I was like, yeah, that's the sales pitch I need. So I'm giving it a go. It's been only a couple of days. But one of the nice things I have noticed about it is it's very focused, and there's not much noise, and it actually feels like very minimal design where if you open up like a new email, so you're opening up a new draft, there's no much noise. You get to just focus, almost like you're writing a little blog post or journal post or something. It takes away a lot of the noise. While in Gmail, it's going to open up a small window in the right, but then you still have the rest of the noise that feels distracting. So I like that very intentional like, hey, you're just doing one thing, just focus on this. And then also you can integrate other email accounts as well. So you can have one-stop shopping versus Gmail, then you have to click around and sign in, sign out, or visit different email accounts. So we'll see if it helps improve my email life, but that's something new I'm trying. CHRIS: Very interesting. So you're fully on inbox zero life now. That's what I'm hearing. [laughs] STEPH: Ah, hmm. I don't want to lie to you. [laughs] We have a good friendship. I won't start lying now. CHRIS: I appreciate that. So you're halfway to inbox zero. You're not even entertaining that idea, right? This is just you want a better tool to do email. STEPH: Exactly. Inbox zero is not incredibly important to me. But I do want to make sure that I know that I've seen everything important, and I know where to find things. And then making sure that I am responding to people in a timely manner. Those are more my goals. Inbox zero, if that supports it, then great, I'll work on it. But not necessarily that has to be the goal that I reach. CHRIS: Gotcha. I'm not seeing Newton, but I'm intrigued. Particularly on mobile, I have the Gmail mobile app, and that has unified inbox, which I appreciate. But Gmail on the web does not, and I find that odd. And I've never found a mail app that I enjoy because I want some of the features of Gmail. I want to do Gmail snoozing because I still want that to be consistent and whatnot. And to be honest, that's the main way that I get to inbox zero. I just say future me will have more time. I actually tweeted recently. It was a screenshot from my Saturday inbox, which I think was 15 emails that I'd snoozed from the previous week into Saturday morning. Because I'm like, Saturday morning me will have so much time, and energy, and coffee, and it'll be great. And then it became Saturday morning and, ooph, what a view. STEPH: [laughs] Yeah, your snoozing tip has been life-changing for me because that's not something that I was using all that much. The two things are, one, schedule send so that way if I do have a sudden burst of energy and I want to write an email, but I want to make sure that person doesn't get notified until a decent time. Being able to schedule an email and snoozing is amazing. I think Newton and Gmail have pretty much similar features. I was trying to do a comparison. I was like, is there something really snazzy that Newton does that Gmail doesn't already give me? But it looks like they all do about the same, having those important features like snoozing and then also being able to schedule emails. So I think it really just comes down to a lot of the UI, and there may be some other stuff I'm missing since I'm new to it. But that's the main appeal for me right now is the focus and the look and feel of it. So then maybe I will find looking through my inbox a more zenful experience, I think is how I saw them advertise it. CHRIS: Well, I definitely look forward to hearing more as you explore this space. I will say looping back to what you were just commenting on around deferred send, which is definitely something that I use, but you described one of the reasons that I use it. So the idea of wanting to be respectful of someone else and not send them an email on Sunday night because you happen to be working at that point. But you don't want to put that on their plate. I would say equal amounts; that's the reason I use scheduled send. And then the other reason that I use scheduled send is please, for the love of God, I do not want another email back in my inbox. So I will reply to something such that now I'm done with that, but I will schedule send it for the next morning. Because tomorrow morning me can deal with whatever reply this generates. There's some adage; I don't know if it's an adage, but the idea that every email that you send generates 1.1 emails in reply. So emails just have this weird way of multiplying. And so if you send one out there, you're probably going to get something back. And so often, if I'm trying to clear my inbox, I don't want to get another email in my inbox at that moment. So I will not actually send the reply. I will schedule it for a future time because I do not want to hear. I want no new inputs at this point. I'm trying to process them. So that's part of why I use deferred send. STEPH: I had not thought of that, that yeah, that if you schedule it for tomorrow, you've really gamified this inbox zero because you're like, yeah, if you send something, then you might get an email back. But you're like, if I wait till tomorrow to send it, then I'm less likely to have another email, and then I've hit inbox zero, and I'm set for the day. I like it. It seems helpful. CHRIS: Yeah, inbox zero sounds like an altruistic thing, but it is not. It's a way to force myself to have to make decisions, which is something that I want to get better at broadly. And that's part of the role that I have now. A lot of what I'm interested in exploring is just getting better at making decisions, being more decisive, being more action-oriented. Because I just have a tendency to make many, many spreadsheets and think about stuff for a while and take a long time to make a decision. But I don't get to do that, particularly now. But broadly in life, that's probably not the right mode to be in. So inbox zero is another thing that forces me to deal with things rather than just be like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, and keep looking at the same thing over and over. So just more thoughts about inbox zero, but now I'll stop talking about it. STEPH: I do like that, though. And you're totally right; it can be a very helpful constraint. And I think that's sometimes why I fight it because then I haven't curated my inbox enough that then when I go to it, there are so many interesting things that then I feel a little bit overwhelmed where I'm like, oh well, I want to read this, and I will look at that. And this seems interesting, and maybe I should be a part of this. It feels like one of those like; you could be a part of these ten amazing things. Do you want to be a part of all of them? And given a person that it's hard for me to say no to or recognize that no, I'm just going to not do anything with this, that is hard for me and would be a good skill for me to hone in on and practice and make quick decisions and be very realistic. Because I used to be subscribed to more newsletters, and then I finally had to stop subscribing to them because it had that same effect on me of that FOMO of like, I'm missing out on this great article or this great video. And I've become more honest with the fact that my Saturday morning self isn't going to want to read through a bunch of newsletters and videos about coding, that I'm going to want less screen time. So that is a really good constraint and helpful skill to cultivate for sure. CHRIS: All right, I said it was done, but one more thing. I feel like I've mentioned this in the past, but Feedbin is the thing that I use for RSS. I still believe in RSS as a technology. But everyone's moved to newsletters these days that go via email. Feedbin gives you an email address that you can use to subscribe to newsletters, and then they do the job of converting that into an RSS feed. So for me, I take something that was now a push into my inbox, and now I can pull whatever I want from that RSS feed. And on Saturday morning, if I'm feeling like, with a cup of coffee, I can enjoy some newsletter about all the new hot tips in Svelte land or whatever it is or not. But it's not clogging up my inbox. And with that, I think I'm actually done talking about inbox zero. [laughter] STEPH: Yeah, that's a nice separation. We could keep going. I have full faith in us that we could keep going about this. But I'll share a slightly different update. I've been implementing a suggestion that you provided a couple of weeks back where we were talking about Rspec's selective test running and how some applications will speed up their test. If you change one part of the codebase, then perhaps you only need to test this chunk of test. You don't actually need to run the full test suite. And that is complicated and seems hard to get right, and really requires understanding boundaries. But then also knowing Ruby, then how do you really identify? Do you really know where this method is being called and can identify all the tests that need to be run? I think we'd mentioned before there's a really good article from Shopify where they have worked on this and created an open-source project called Packwerk. So we can link to that article in the show notes. But more specifically, you suggested, well, what if you just change a test file? That seems very low stakes and also has the benefit of creating a reward where if someone does see something that they can improve in a test, then that's a very quick feedback. Let me just get this change. It's going to be fast on CI. I can merge it right away and also saves time on CI. So I've been working on implementing that change. And it's one of those the actual change is easy, like checking with Git to say, "Hey, what files have changed?" Does it have an _spec.rb at the end of it? Great. Does it not? Okay, we've changed some application files. So let's run the full test suite. That part's easy. Getting it integrated into the build system has been more complicated just because this team has done a lot of work around trying to improve and speed up their test. And there's a fair amount of complexity that's there. So then figuring out a way to stitch my change into all the different build processes that take place has proven to be more difficult. But it's also been insightful just because it has now helped me really understand and forced me to learn, okay, what are all the different steps? What's important for each one? Where can I cut off the rest of the running of the test and instead just focus on running these tests? So in some ways, it's been challenging, but then on the positive side, it's been like, okay, well, this has taught me a lot about the existing system. So at this moment, it is still a work in progress. I'll have more updates in the future. I am excited to see the rewards. I've gotten to the point where I just have a proof of concept where I've gotten pushed up, but it's not production-ready. But it's at least I just wanted the feedback that I'm in the right spot and that we're running just the right test. And so far, it does seem like it's going to be a nice win, even if it's maybe not used by everybody because it's probably rare that someone is altering just a spec file. But for people who are looking specifically to improve the CI build time and working on tests, it will be very helpful to them. So yeah, I'm sure I'll have some more updates in the future. What's going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, I definitely look forward to hearing more about that. However, we can improve CI speed; I'm super interested in that as a topic. Mid-Roll Ad Hey, friends, let's take a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, New Relic. All right, so you've probably experienced this before where you're just starting to fall asleep, and it's a calm, code-free peaceful sleep, and then you're jolted awake by an emergency page. It's your night on call, and something is wrong. But I have some good news because you have New Relic, which means you can quickly run down the incident checklist and find that problem. So let's see, our real user monitoring metrics look good. And that's where New Relic measures the speed and performance of your end-users as they navigate the site. But it looks like there's an error in application performance monitoring. If we click on the error, we can find the deployment marker where it all began, roll back the change, and, ooh, problem is solved. We can go back to bed, back to sleep, and back to happy. That's the power of combining 16 different monitoring products into one platform. You can pinpoint issues down to the line of code so you know exactly why the problem happened and can resolve it quickly. That's why more than 14,000 other companies, including GitHub and Epic Games, use New Relic to improve their software. So you know that next late-night call is just waiting to happen, so get New Relic before it does. And you can get access to the whole New Relic platform and 100 gigabytes of data free forever. No credit card required. Sign up at newrelic.com/bikeshed. That's newrelic N-E-W-R-E-L-I-C .com/bikeshed, newrelic.com/bikeshed. CHRIS: Well, similar to your email adventures, I continue on my search for the perfect to-do list. It's not going great, if we're being honest. [laughs] To be clear, because I've mentioned this on a few different episodes, I'm not spending much time on this at all, some but not much. And so it's not really moving. But there are two interesting things. I took a look at TickTick, which was one that I mentioned in the past, a tool for this. It seems good. It seems like an intersection between things, which is what I'm currently using, Todoist, which I've used in the past, and some other tools. So I think I'll probably explore that a little more. It seems like a good option. Decidedly, the most interesting thing is a tool called Sunsama, which is different in some interesting ways but very interesting. So one thing to note about it is it's $20 a month, which is a lot of money for one of these tools because most of them are like, "We're $20 forever, and then it's free." And it's a surprisingly low-cost space. And so, they're definitely positioning themselves as a more costly entry. I would be fine with paying $20 a month for a tool if it really is like, no, cool, I feel great. I'm more productive. I'm happier when I'm not working, et cetera. But what's interesting is they seem to do a let's reach out to all the places that tasks can live for you. So there's your inbox for email. There's your Trello board that you've got. There are GitHub issues. There's Slack. There are all these different sources of potential tasks. And they do a really good job of integrating with those other tools and then allowing you to pull that list into Sunsama and then make each day you have a list. And those items can be like, this is a reference to a Trello card on that board. This is a reference to a Slack conversation over there. So I'm super intrigued by it. It's also got a very intentional plan your day mode, which I like because that's one of the things that I'm really looking for is at the end of the day, I want to clean everything up, make sense of all of the open items, and then reprioritize and set up for the next morning so that I can just hit the ground running. That said, I tried it, and it just didn't quite click. And I think it's one of those it takes some effort to understand how to use it. So I'm not sure that I'm going to get there. But it is super interesting because that idea of our work lives in all of these different tools these days feels very true. And so, something that is trying to act as a hub between them to integrate them is very interesting to me. Again, I haven't really gotten anywhere on this. I'm kind of just reading blog posts, as it were. So I'll report back if that changes, but -- STEPH: The search continues for the right to-do app. Yeah, that seems interesting. I don't know why I'm feeling hesitant towards it. I'm one of those individuals...you're right; there are so many tools. And the fact that they integrate with a lot of them seems really nice. I'm at the point where I just grab links to stuff, and I'm like, hey, if this is my priority, I grab a link to a Trello ticket, and then I just copy that into my to-do. I guess I like that bit of work over having to integrate with a bunch of different platforms. Because once you get used to integrating...I don't know; I'm just rambling. But I wish you the best on this journey. I'm excited to hear more. [laughter] CHRIS: Thank you. I will certainly report back. But yeah, nothing pointed to share at this point. But I do have something pointed to share on the hiring front, which is that we have hired some folks. STEPH: Hooray! CHRIS: Yay. So this has been a fun saga across a couple of different episodes. And in my mind, it feels like this much longer, more drawn out thing, but it's; actually, I think, come together relatively quickly, all things considering. We've got someone who's starting in a little over a week's time, and then someone else who's starting in, I think, two or three weeks after that. So that'll be great. Hopefully, we can transition into onboarding, which is a different whole approach. But hiring as a distinct activity can scale back significantly. As we discussed last week, I want to be in the always be hiring mindset but in the more passive mode of having conversations with folks, staying connected. And if a great candidate comes along and it's the right time, then bring them on the team but not actually actively reaching out and all that sort of stuff, which will be great. Because it turns out that takes a lot of time and also a lot of energy for me. Having those first conversations, going into it very intentionally trying to communicate about something, and there's a tone of salesmanship to it that is not my natural resting state. So I come away from each conversation being like, that was fun, but also, I'm drained now. Why am I so drained? So not having that be a thing that is filling up my calendar is great. And also super excited with the folks that'll be joining the team and to be able to now grow our little team and define the culture and the shape of the groups that we will be collectively. I'm excited for that work and what we can build together. So yeah, it's an exciting time. STEPH: That's awesome. Congratulations. Because yeah, everything you're saying sounds like it's just been a lot of work. So that's very exciting. There's someone that I was chatting with earlier today where they were talking about the value and the importance of understanding what your natural skills are and the things that bring you energy. And so you're mentioning there are certain activities that you enjoy them, but they're also draining because perhaps they are on the outer boundary of what you might define as your own natural skill or the things that get you really excited. And I found that all very interesting. It had me thinking about that today about where are the natural areas that I find that I get energy that are easier for me? And then making sure that I'm trying to prioritize my day so that I am more focused on the activities that just align with who I am and also that I'm engaged with and then also looking for ways to stretch. But they made the point that if you are always in a space where you are not using your natural talents, and you're always having to stretch, then that can be what leads to burnout. Versus if you're in that sweet spot, that zone of where you are using your natural skills, but then also stretching a bit. And I think there are some assessments and things like that that will help you then determine what are my natural skills, and what do I like to do with my time? I just like that style of thinking and recognizing, like you said, like, hey, I did a thing. It was fun, but I'm drained. So now I know that this is something that requires more effort for me. Like hiring, that's one for me. I really like interviewing. I like talking with people, but I'm so nervous for them because I know interviews suck. [laughs] I just have so much empathy for them where I'm like, this is going to be a hard day. We're going to make it as pleasant and positive as possible, but I know this is a hard day. And so I feel like I'm in it with them. And so afterwards, I feel that same relief of like whoo, okay, interview day is over. CHRIS: I don't know that I quite achieve the same level that you do but in no way am I surprised that that is your experience of hiring. And just to name it, you're a wonderful human being that feels for the people on the other side of the hiring table. Like, oh my God, this must be so stressful for you. It's so kind of you to be in that space with folks. But coming back to what you were saying a moment ago, that idea of, like, understanding where your strengths are and where they're areas that you're not quite as strong. And I think critically, the question of like which are the ones where I want to just kind of say no to? I'm like, that's fine. This is not going to be a competency of mine. And I'm going to just avoid that or find other people to work with that balance that out. So for me, sales is the thing that I don't think that's ever going to be my bag. I don't think I'm ever going to move in that direction, and that's totally fine. Whereas decisiveness, which I was describing, is like, I think that's the thing I could get better at. That is one that I don't want to sleep on that. I don't want to say, "That'll be fine. I'll just have other people make the decision." No, I need to get better at making decisions, making decisions with less information or more rapidly, having a bias towards action. All those things I think will be deeply beneficial. So I'm trying to really lean into that. Whereas yeah, again, the sales stuff I'm like, yeah, and there's plenty of examples of this otherwise. But I've also been coding a bit more this week, which has been lovely because the hiring stuff has ramped down. And that has freed me up amongst some other stuff that's been going on. And you know, I like to code, it turns out. It's fun. I just clack about on my cherry brown keys, and it's great. STEPH: Do you remember when we first got introduced to mechanical keyboards, and we had co-ownership of one of the keyboards? And we literally had days of where it was like your turn to use the keyboard. And then it was my turn to use the keyboard. How long did we keep that up before we were finally like, we should just buy our own keyboards? CHRIS: It was a while because we were working with a colleague who was trying out a Kinesis, I want to say, one of the split little bowl of keys. But yeah, we had a shared custody over a keyboard, and it was fantastic. I remember that very fondly. STEPH: The days that it was my keyboard, I would go to the office and be like, oh, today is my day at the keyboard. This is great. This is going to be such a wonderful day. [laughs] And now I'm just spoiled. CHRIS: It went on for a while, though. And this was something where we both obviously enjoy this keyboard. Why don't we just buy one of these keyboards? We totally could have done that. And yet, for some reason, both of us were like, no, but what if...I got to think about this. Again, decisiveness. [laughs] We come back to this topic of well; I had to really think about it. And then somebody got the 92-Key test or whatever it was in the office. And so I just went over and poked every one of those for a while. STEPH: Exactly. It was option overload where we're like, well, okay, we're going to buy one, and then you open it up and search, and you're like, oh, you want options? We have options. Do you know about the blues, and the browns, and the colors, and these different options? Like, I don't know any of this language that you're talking about. I just want to clackety-clack. So yeah, it took time. We had to do our research. CHRIS: And then I ended up on basic browns. So here we are. Let's see, popping back up the stack a couple of levels, hiring that went on for a while. Now it is less going on. Although to be clear, like I said, always be hiring. So if anyone out there in the world is hearing what I'm talking about with Sagewell or seeing any of the stuff that I'm putting on Twitter, which isn't much, I occasionally just post screenshots of my commit messages, which recently included better snakes as a commit message. [laughs] I have to dig into that or not. But we were just doing some snake case to camel case conversion. But the commit message was better snake, so here we are. Anyway, if any of that sounds interesting, please do reach out. But I'm excited to transition back to focusing more on the work. On that note, actually, I'm going to call it interesting things that is happening right now organizationally is; we are working with an external security firm to help with some...they helped us out with a penetration test when we needed that. And then they have stayed on retainer and are helping with various different configurations, taking our AWS S3 buckets and making sure those are nice and secure, and all that kind of stuff. But we've recently started to focus more on organizational security, specifically a bowl of acronyms. We've got SSO for single sign-on, MDM for something device management. I don't know what that first M is. I probably should learn it, but it's fine. That's why I've got help on this is I think they know what the acronym stands for. But so we're working on each of those. And on the one hand, they're probably going to be kind of annoying, like having to go through the single sign-on. It's a whole thing, and it's harder to sign into stuff sometimes. I mean, ideally, it's actually easier. But in my experience, it adds some friction at some points. And then MDM means that there's now some profile manager on the computer. So I can say like, "Every computer must have full disk encryption or else you can't use it. And we need a passcode, and it must be this long and those sorts of things." So it's organizational controls that I think are good for us having a robust security setup throughout the organization. But yeah, they're the sort of things that I think historically, I probably would have, as someone working in an organization, had been like, do we have to? Do we need these things? Couldn't I just do whatever? But now there's something about it that I really like. I'm trying to name it in my head, but I'm kind of like, I don't know. This feels like growing up as an organization. And there's always weird corollary that I've been thinking about with the Rails app that we've been building, intimately familiar with just everything that's going into it. And I know the vast majority of lines of code. I haven't written them all, but I've had an eye on all of the different features that we're building in. And it's hard to get out of that headspace where it feels like a bunch of pieces. It doesn't feel like a hole to me, even though it definitely is. But when does a bunch of boards that you nail together become a boat? To make a really weird analogy because that's what I do; it's a hobby of mine. But when does that transition happen? At some point, certainly. But that's harder for me to see on the code side. And organizationally, somehow getting these things in place feels like the organization sort of an inflection point for us, a growth point, which is I'm really excited about it. Even though they're probably going to mean a ton of annoying nuisance work for me because I'm the person in charge of making sure it all gets rolled out. And anytime anyone locks themselves out of an account, I have to help with that. And so it's probably just putting a bunch of annoying work on my plate. And yet, I don't know; I'm kind of excited about it. STEPH: I feel like that shows our roots in terms of how we approach projects that we work on where you mentioned do we need this? Do we need this yet? Because I feel that we're constantly as developers and consultants just we're trying to advise on the more simplified do we need this? Is this the right thing to spend the money on? How do we know? What are the metrics? What does success look like? And all those questions. So I feel like the way you just phrased all of that just really shows that sort of mentality that you grew up with in terms of checking in, and yeah, it's cool. Like you said, you're at a growth point where then it's like, yes, we are at this point that I've asked myself all those questions, and we're here. This feels like the right next step. CHRIS: I like the way you described it as that you grew up with, my formative growing years at thoughtbot. Mid-roll Ad Scout APM is an application performance monitoring tool that's designed to help developers find and fix performance issues quickly. With an intuitive interface, Scout will tie bottlenecks to source code, so you can quickly pinpoint and resolve performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, and memory bloat. Scout also recently implemented external service monitoring, adding even more granularity when it comes to HTTP requests and API calls. So give Scout a try today with a free 14-day trial and experience first-hand why developers worldwide call Scout their best friend. And as an added bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. To learn more, visit scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: Well, switching gears just a bit, we have a listener question for today, and this one comes from Stephanie. So not me, another Stephanie in the world. Hello, other Stephanie out there in the world. And they wrote in, "Hi, Steph and Chris, fellow software consultant here. And I'm wondering if you'd consider talking about how to craft a project estimate for a client on the pod. It's such an important aspect of consulting." Amen. I added the amen. "And I feel like I'm very much impacted as a project team member when the estimate isn't accurate." Double amen. So true. [laughs] "Would appreciate any and all thoughts, especially since it might be part of my job in the future. Thanks." I just realized I put us in consultant church by adding all those amens, but here we are. [laughs] CHRIS: I'm glad you clarified that they were additions by you and not part of the original question coming in. STEPH: Sure. I don't want to speak on behalf of Stephanie. So I have some thoughts on the matter. I think there are a couple of different ways that we can talk about this particular question because I think there are different formats as to when you're estimating and who you're providing the estimate for. But I'm going to pause because I'd love to see what you think. How do you go about approaching crafting an estimate? CHRIS: Sure. I'm happy to share some thoughts. And for a bit of context, this question came in to us, frankly, many months ago, but I did send an initial reply to Stephanie because I know that sometimes we take a little bit of time to get back to folks. So if ever you do send in a question, know that one of us will probably respond via email earlier, and then eventually, will make it on the show. And again, just to say, we do so appreciate when folks send in these questions. It's an interesting way to shape the conversation and a way to get topics that you're more interested in into the fold here. But so the two main ideas that I shared in my initial reply were, first, is an estimate really necessary? I think that's a critical question because an estimate implies that this thing is knowable. And as many of us, probably all of us, have found out at some point in our lives as software developers, it's really hard to do software estimation, like wildly difficult. And not just the thing that we'll eventually get better at it, which you do, but there's just some chaos. There's some noise in this work that we do that makes it so, so difficult to get it right. So pretty much always, I will ask, like, do we need to estimate here? What if, instead, we were to flip the whole question on its head and say, let's set a deadline. Let's say two months from now that's our deadline. And let's ruthlessly reprioritize every single week to make sure that we're building something that's meaningful, and we're getting there. And obviously, we have to have some general idea of what we're doing. Is two months a meaningful amount of time to build a rocket to go to Mars? Probably not. But is it enough time to build an app that can allow users to sign in and manage a simple list of items? Yeah, we can definitely do that, and we can probably add a bunch of more features. The other thing that I think is worth highlighting is there's a bunch of stuff that is table stakes and very easy to do. But I would, whenever doing estimation, emphasize unknowns. So, where are the external integrations with other systems? Where are the dependencies that rely on other folks to provide some inputs into this process that we can't be certain where there'll be? In my experience, the places where estimates go awry are often these little intersection points that you're like, well, this will probably take a day, maybe two. And it turns out; actually, this can somehow balloon into a month. That's not a thing that feels comfortable saying in an estimation process, but it is definitely real. I've seen it happen so many times. And so it's those unknowns. It's those little bits that I would emphasize as part of the process if you do need to do an estimate and say, all right, here's the boring stuff. I think we can do that pretty easily. But this part, I don't know, it could be a week, could be three months. And frame it in that way that there is this ambiguity there. Because if someone's asking you for an estimate and they're looking for like it is seven days and two hours exactly, it's like, well, that's not realistic. That's not how this thing works. Unfortunately, I wish it did. But pushing back and changing the conversation is the thing that I have found valuable. I think there's some other really interesting stuff in here around the team dynamics that Stephanie is talking about. But I want to send this over to other Stephanie to see your thoughts because I'm super interested to hear what you have to say as well. STEPH: Oh, I like how you hinted at the team dynamics. Yeah, that could be a fun one to circle back to. So I love how you called out highlighting the unknowns. There are a couple of ways that this comes to mind for me. So there's the idea of the weekly or the bi-weekly estimates that we make as developers and designers. So let's say we as a team are getting together to focus on a chunk of work and decide what we can and can't get through. And that feels one of those the more you get to practice it more frequently; you get to ask a bunch of questions. And that feels like a good rehearsal and exercise of how to go through estimates. And I know you and I have pretty similar strong feelings around how those estimates are then treated by the company. They should really just be used for the team to talk through the complexities in the work to be done versus used to communicate outwardly as to this is when it's definitely going to ship. So there's that more immediate practice of providing estimates. And then there's the idea for more of a consultancy or a company, and someone is coming to you, so thoughtbot being a great example of then how do we work with teams that are looking to come to us and gain an estimate for getting a certain feature implemented? So actually, I went to the source on this one. I went to Josh Clayton, who does a lot of the conversations for the Boost team when it comes to talking with clients and about the potential work that they would like to be done. And mostly our work is often teams will hire us. They have specific goals in mind, but they're really looking to hire ongoing development and services. So they really want to add to their existing staff. And then it's going to be an ongoing relationship versus a hey, we need you to quote us for how long it's going to take to implement this particular feature. And on that note, we don't do fixed-bid work. So we don't say it's X dollars for specific features. But on the realistic side, customers are often capped by a budget. And so that estimate is very important to them because it could be a difference between it's a go versus a no go. So if you have larger companies that are like, "Yep, we want to engage with thoughtbot. We really just want additional development power and design services," that's great. For those that are smaller, it could be an individual product owner, and they need to say, "I really want this feature, but I only have this much money. And frankly, if I can't ship it by this time, I'm not going to do it because it's not worth the investment to my company." And then, in those cases, those are the ones that we're going to spend more time with them to talk about what does the fallback plan look like? And what's our opportunity for simplifying the features? And Josh, in particular, referenced this as systems thinking. So he will go through the idea of drawing out the set of steps, understanding the complexity of the different screens. So what are the validations? What are the external dependencies? What is owned by us and what isn't? What is the likelihood that we're going to get permission to simplify or remove complexity? And even then, when we start to provide some estimates, it's going to be in weeks. It's not in hours; it's not in days. It's going to be in a slightly larger time frame. And then we're also going to spend more time in the discovery phase to say, okay, well, we know you need to fix this particular issue, or you need to integrate with this particular service. So we're going to need to ask a lot more questions about your codebase. What problems have you already run into? Have you tried to do this before? Do we have experience doing this? Is this something that we can lean on and ask someone in the team? And, say, how long do you think it would take for us to work on this? And that's knowledge that isn't privy to everybody. It depends on where you're at in your career as to like, oh yeah, I've done this like five times before, and I know exactly how this stuff can fall apart. I know where the complexity lies. So I think that's why estimation is so difficult is just because it does often pull from that existing experience. And so, if you don't have that experience for a particular set of work, of course, it's going to be hard to estimate because you just don't know. So that was a very broad scope of as day-to-day developer and designers; I feel like we're constantly getting practice and estimating and communicating the progress of our work. And then on the larger scope of if you are a consultant who's then looking to give estimates to clients, then understanding what other need can you sell them? Just ongoing development services. Or, if they are a smaller team and very focused, then what legwork can you do ahead of time to de-risk the project? And then understand how much control you're going to have to be able to simplify as you learn more as you go. Because you're going to, you're going to uncover some things, and you're going to learn some things. And what's that collaboration going to look like? I do have one more concrete example I can provide around some of the smaller projects that we take on. So when we are helping someone that's, say, getting a new product out to market, then we do have a more deliberate three, four-phase approach where we first focus on discovery, and ideation, and validation. And then, we move on to iteration and then launching. And I really like how you said about providing a deadline because then that helps us scope aggressively as to what is the minimum thing that we can get out into the world that will be valuable? And then there's usually some post-launch support as well. But that's often how we will structure those smaller, more specific engagements. CHRIS: I think one of the critical things that you highlighted in there is that thoughtbot doesn't do fixed-bid work. So we're going to do these 20 features, and it's going to take four months. thoughtbot does not do that, and frankly, that's a privilege to be able to take that position and say, "No, no, no," we're not going to work that way. But it is, I think, a trade-off. It's not just something that thoughtbot does to be like, listen, that doesn't sound fun. So I'm not going to do that. It's a trade-off. Not doing that comes in concert with saying, "But weekly, we're going to talk about the work that we have done and the work that remains and constantly, ruthlessly, reprioritize and re-decide what we're doing." And it's that engagement, the idea that you can have a body of work, look at it and say, "Yeah, that'll take about six months," and then go away for six months, and then come back with the finished software. Our strong belief is that that's not the way good software gets built. But instead, it's a very engaged team where the product owner and the development team are in constant communication about each of the features that are being developed. And then again, ideally, on a weekly cadence, coming up for air and saying, "How are we doing? Are we moving in the right direction? Are we getting towards the goals? If not, do we need to simplify? Do we need to change things?" And similarly, as I mentioned deadlines, I feel like deadlines is probably a word that many people think of as very bad because deadlines often come with also a fixed scope, but that can't happen. That's two constraints, and you can't have them fighting that way. But a deadline can be super useful as a way to say we're going to put something out there in the future and say we're heading towards that moment. And let's, again, cut scope. Let's change what we're building, et cetera. But critically, not say, "We got a deadline and a fixed scope. We're going to do that." And so it's, again, just ways to gently shift the conversation around and say, what if we were to look at this from a different angle? Because just having a pile of work and saying, "That'll take six months," I've never seen that play out. STEPH: Yeah, to me, deadline is a bad word when the deadline is set by a team that's not doing the work. So if you have leadership or if you have someone else that is setting this deadline and then just passing that down to someone else to then fulfill, regardless of the feedback or how things are going, then yeah, then it can be a nasty thing, which I think is a little bit of in that question that you picked up on that you highlighted where there could be some interesting team dynamics that Stephanie called out, highlighting that I'm very much impacted as a project team member when the estimate isn't accurate. And I'm making some assumptions here because I don't actually know the exact situation that Stephanie is experiencing. But it sounds like someone else externally is setting these team estimates. And so then you're handed this deadline, and then stuff goes wrong, but you're still pressured to meet this deadline. And I've certainly been part of projects that are like that. And then that is one of the number one things that then often comes up in a retro or like, we don't have control over these deadlines, or we don't know why these deadlines are being set. And then people are working extra hours and working nights and weekends to then meet this arbitrary deadline that none of us signed up for, and that's just not fair to treat deadlines in that way. So full-heartedly agree that deadlines can be a very positive thing, but they need to be set by the people doing the work. And then there has to be discussions and updates about how is this going? Do we have control to simplify this? We thought we could do this with this particular external provider. It turns out that that's a nightmare. Is there another provider we can go with? Can we ship this incrementally? Like some features, you can't. They may have to go out wholesale. But is there a small chunk of this that we can deliver that is then a success that leadership and others can brag about? And then we can keep working on the rest of it. So it's always identifying what are the smallest wins, and how do we get there and getting buy-in from the team? Going back to something that you said earlier around, it is a privilege, where so as thoughtbot, we don't do fixed-bid work. And that is a nice thing for us to be able to focus on. But for people who do need to do fixed bid work and are relying on that, I think that often requires more legwork. And maybe that becomes part of your estimate. I'm just making up how I might approach this if I were trying to do fixed bid work. But there's a discovery phase that's very important. So maybe the first part of your estimate is I need to really understand the feature and see the different screens and know what materials we do or don't have. What does the codebase look like? Do I feel like this is a codebase that I can work quickly in? And is it going to be hindersome for me? But answering a lot of those questions to then help me paint a picture of, like, okay, this is a feature that I've implemented before, so I feel pretty confident that I could do this in a month. And then also communicating that this is my estimate but just know it's an estimate. And I will continue to update you each day as to how things are going or each week as to how things are going, and things may adjust. And we can always talk about ways about simplifying this. But I think that's how I would go about it is; frankly, it's going to require more legwork for me to feel more confident as to then telling someone as to how long I think the work will take. I think that's a nice, broad scope of the different types of estimate work to be done with the general idea of if you can avoid estimates and go for more frequent updates, then that's wonderful. But then, if you are forced into a corner where you need to provide an update, then just do as much research and honesty as possible and then still include the frequent updates. CHRIS: Yeah, that I think summarizes it quite well. STEPH: As a side note, it's been a lot of fun to feel like I'm referring to myself as a third person as Stephanie is working through this problem. So that's been novel. But yeah, thank you, Stephanie, for the great question. I hope that was helpful. On that note, Shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. ALL: Byeeeeeeeeee!!! ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Chris updates us on his new window manager of choice, Moom, and tells us what's good with it. He's also giving yet another task manager a go: OmniFocus. (Sorry Things.) Steph talks about defining test classes in RSpec and readdresses flaky tests to improve CI build time. Chris is worried about productivity. He's still not coding as much as he'd like to be. Steph lends an ear, and together, they discuss potential ways Chris could gain back a little bit of coding time at work. This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. Moom (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/moom/id419330170?mt=12) OmniFocus (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/omnifocus-3/id1346190318) Is It Worth the Time? (https://xkcd.com/1205/) Knapsack Pro (https://knapsackpro.com/) Shopify Monolith (https://shopify.engineering/shopify-monolith) Sacrificial Test Classes (https://blog.bitwrangler.com/2016/11/10/sacrificial-test-classes.html) rspecq (https://github.com/skroutz/rspecq) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Well, hey, Steph. Oh, I have an update on a thing that I think I talked about a while back or at least asked on Twitter. But I've been looking for a window manager for forever. And in that way that I sort of overcorrected a while back, I think where I'm no longer allowed to do anything related to productivity or dev tools. I was just forbidden because it was a time sink. I'm slowly trying to correct back and be like, you know what? I regularly think about how it would be nice to have a better window manager. So previously, I had used Divvy, D-I-V-V-Y, which is fine. It did an okay job, but it just didn't have quite the level of control that I wanted, or maybe I didn't investigate it enough. But it felt like it was lacking. So I did a little bit of research. A bunch of people recommended different things. There was Spectacle; there was Rectangle. There was a whole bunch of other things that I'm forgetting now because I have settled on Moom, M-O-O-M. Those are fun words. STEPH: I feel like you keep bringing interesting words [laughs] because last time, it was Things where you're tracking all the things. And now we have Moom to track the space. All right. CHRIS: If this is my legacy as a podcaster, then I feel like I will have done well just, you know, weird sounds mostly that's what he's going for. But yes, I've been using Moom now for…[laughs] God, it's just ridiculous to say, but here we are. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I've been using it. I've been enjoying it. In particular, the thing that I liked about it...a bunch of the other ones that I looked at were like, oh, we've got all these different configurations. And you can move things any which way, and you can have any number of hotkeys. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, say more right now. You want to take over my global namespace of hotkeys and just clutter it with 19 different things? You know that that is a limited space that I'm working with here. And so Moom, somewhat uniquely, at least in the ones that I experienced, was what I would describe as a modal window manager. So much like Vim is modal where you start out in normal mode, and you're moving around and you kind of bounce and search and all of that, and then you enter insert mode. And in insert mode, keys do different things. And then in command mode...it's got all these different modes. And so there are lots of different namespaces for hotkeys. It's one of the things that makes Vim so powerful. Moom is similar in that there's one global activation hotkey. And then, within that, I can have a whole namespace of hotkeys. So like M will put something in the middle of my screen now. F will put something full-screen. And I don't need to remember weird multikey combinations for that. There's just the one to get started, and then I've configured it such that the tab will bounce to a secondary display and sort of rotate through them. M and F and Q and P I've got it physically laid out on the keyboard. So it looks like my screen. Q being on the left side will push something to the left side, P to the right side. And I'm very happy with that. I don't need a lot out of this tool. I don't need very complex management or scripting or any of that, which are very nice features that exist in the other ones. But that combination, the one hotkey to rule them all, and then the sub hotkeys within it, and the ability to mostly move between the screens and then put stuff where I want it is great. I'm very happy. STEPH: I think I've figured it out. So Moom, I think it's a combination of move and zoom, and that's how they got Moom. CHRIS: You're probably right. STEPH: That does sound really nice. I'm a Spectacle fan. And I have enjoyed it and just stuck with it because I haven't felt a need to change from it. And it's really nice where I use my arrow keys for which direction I want to go. So that has been easy for me to recall. But that sounds really nice, all the things that you're describing with Moom. CHRIS: Does spectacle have the like, is it some Command Option Control and then left or right or up or down? Or is it you type something, and then you type left, right, up, down? STEPH: I have to actually touch my keyboard to answer that question because I have the muscle memory, which is an interesting thing that my muscles knows it, but my brain has to really think about it. So I think it's like the Option Command, and then yeah, then use the arrow keys. CHRIS: Gotcha. That's roughly what I had when I was using Divvy previously, but I found just enough of a limitation there. And so Moom has been great as another tool. But I think Spectacle has a lot more features in terms of scripting and other fancier stuff that you can do, which is both super intriguing and, again, sort of the thing that I'm not allowed to do. [laughs] So I went with, like, this tool seems fine and has the one feature that I really want. That said, you brought up Things, which is the to-do list app that I've been looking at. I've been using it for a week now. It's great. I'm enjoying having a more structured way to say, like, here's what I'm doing today. Here's what I'm doing tomorrow. It's been wonderful. But I'm already looking at OmniFocus as a better version. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Because I think there's some stuff that I don't love, and yes, I can hear my own voice in the back of my head that's like, always chasing that next thing. But I haven't actually made the effort to switch over or even tried. I've used OmniFocus in the past. But anyway, I'll let you know if I do make additional moves there. STEPH: Yeah, I'm enjoying this journey. Keep me up to date on it. I've heard of OmniFocus, but I know nothing about it. But I feel like I've heard good things. So I like this journey you're going on where you just keep switching and trying new things. That's fun for me [laughs], and there's chasing productivity. So I'm into it; I'm here for it. CHRIS: If I just invest enough hours to save a handful of minutes down the road, then I will have...oh no, wait, that's not how this goes. There's, of course, an xkcd about this which we can include in the show notes. But I'm trying to be very intentional with it. I waited for many years before I allowed myself to reinvestigate the world of to-do lists. And I'm hopefully going to keep it to just a couple of weeks of nonsense and then back to a few years of stable. That's the dream. But yeah, that's some of the smaller things that are up in my world. I have another topic that I want to chat about. But I'd love to hear what's new in your world? STEPH: Yeah, I have some interesting bits that I can talk about with the project that I'm working on. But more concretely, I have something that's been on my mind that I don't think that I've talked about here on the show, but I think would be fun to talk about because I just happened to run into it this week while working on some code. And it's the idea of defining test classes in RSpec so as you are testing part of your code, but then you want to create just like a fake class, something that you can use as a substitute for real application code. And so it's a really nice way that then you can have this replica behavior, but then maybe it's just one particular method or some behavior that you need to use in the class but then doesn't actually go to the real code. That's wonderful. That's great. One thing that I've learned is that with RSpec is when you are introducing a test class, so let's say if you have your RSpec describe and then either a string or it's the name of a class, and then you have a block so do, and then within that block is where you write your test. If you create a temporary class, say, like I have my class test class, and then I have some behavior, that gets defined in the global namespace. It's not scoped to that particular RSpec example. And the reason for that it's not specific to RSpec. RSpec is not the one that's doing this; it's actually Ruby behavior. So for Ruby, when you're defining within a block like that, if you're defining a constant, if you're defining another class inside of a block, it's going to use the outer namespace as its namespace. So if you had a top-level class that you were defining, but if you define a class as a block, and then inside of that block you define a constant, that constant is then defined in the object namespace instead of within that particular class that you have written. And so that's why RSpec has this behavior. Because someone brought up a really great question about this on RSpec::Core asking about it, and they're like, yeah, that's actually how Ruby works. And so we're not going to change RSpec's behavior since that is how Ruby has decided to handle this. And the part where this becomes important is when you define a test class within an RSpec example. While it may be unlikely that someone is going to use that exact same name for their test class that they're going to create in their RSpec example, if they were to use that same name, then you're going to have a collision between the two. One of them's going to win, and you're probably going to end up with some really weird test failures because it's going to get confusing as to which class is being used, and they may not match up with each other. So one way around this, and this is going to be one of the rare times that I suggest this, but let. Let is scoped to an RSpec example. And so you could define a class inside of a let, and then that will scope it to the example. There are probably some other approaches as well, but that's the one that I'm most familiar with to ensure that when you define that class or constant, it's not getting defined in the global namespace and ensuring that none of the other tests have access to it. CHRIS: Well, this is certainly interesting. I'm pretty sure I've been operating under the opposite assumption for the entirety of my career. This is good to know. I feel like I probably have had tests that failed because of this. And then I learned this truth, and then I subsequently forgot it. I don't know if you know this, but if you define a method within just a helper method that you extract in RSpec, are those also on the global namespace? I don't define classes in RSpec blocks that often. It's pretty rare. Like if I have a controller concern sort of thing that I want to test, I might say random controller and inject the thing there or some other abstracted piece. That is the only case I can think of where I have a fake model or a fake controller or something like that for test purposes. But it doesn't come up that often. I do extract a heck ton of local helper methods. And I'm wondering now, are those all in the shared global namespace? STEPH: I'm pretty sure they're not. And I'm getting on the edges of my knowledge here, but I think it has to do with the fact of when you're defining a constant. So if you're defining a class versus an actual constant, that will get into the global namespace because it's using the outer scoping. But in my experience, I'm pretty sure that's not true for the method just because I remember one time I did some funky stuff with RSpec. And I remember seeing that I couldn't access those methods from another example. CHRIS: I like the honesty. And you're like, to be clear, I was doing something weird, but I learned that day. Okay, that's good because at least that part maps to my understanding. So methods may be safe, but classes get shared. Very interesting. STEPH: And it's something that I rarely think about or had worried about just because if I'm defining a fake test class, I often will put it somewhere that's intended to be more global. So I'll stuff it somewhere in like spec support. So then other people can see, hey, I've already mimicked this behavior. So if you need to use the same thing, just go ahead and use this. It's not often that I am adding that class directly to the RSpec example group. So I think I've been fortunate where I haven't actually run into that conflict for that reason. But this came up while giving an RSpec course. And while we were just in a very small, tiny codebase and replicating some examples, someone in the class was like, "Hey, by the way, do you know that that's in the global namespace?" And I was like, "No, friend. Tell me more." So thanks to that person, they're the ones that actually enlightened me about how it's going into that namespace and how it can actually pollute your testing namespace. There's a really good article that's written by Ken Mayer. And we'll be sure to include a link in the show notes that talks about it and also provides the let example as a way to work around this. And also links to the GitHub discussion on RSpec::Core, where they talk about this behavior and why things are the way that they are. Circling back to some of the more general project-y things that I alluded to earlier, I've shared a bit about the project that I'm working on. But just to recap it, it is focused on helping a very large team that has a large number of tests, around 85,000. And they are looking to address flaky tests that they have and overall really improve their CI build time. So right now, it takes about 30 minutes for the build to take place. But they also have flaky tests, and then that slows things down. And so, the re-verify rate has been painful for them. There's been some really great work that has improved that, particularly there is a, I think we've talked about this before, but where they're re-verifying certain flaky tests, which isn't great because they're still flaky tests, but at least they're not preventing people from moving forward and shipping code. But some of the bigger stuff that is just on my mind is when you have a very large team and a very large application, by large team, I'm talking about 100 developers, and they are all contributing to this codebase. And there are around 85,000 tests, and that has grown substantially in the last 12 months. And so, if you think about the trajectory of the addition of those tests, it is just going to continue to grow. So there's a concern there of even if we address flaky tests and we improve things, there's an architecture concern of how do we really reduce the CI build time? And so there's that aspect, and then there's also the aspect of then well, how do we still work to improve the tests and the codebase as well as we go across all of these disparate teams? And right now, there is a bit of a culture where engineers don't feel empowered where they can necessarily address all of the flaky tests or things that they run into. And so there is a bit of a mindset of I'm stuck on this, or this test failed, or it's flaky, or I don't understand it. So I'm just going mute it, or I'm going to hand it off to someone else to work on it. So there are three big areas that are on my mind. The first one is architecture. You can throw architecture at it. There's also the code quality that's a concern. And then how do you improve the code quality in a way that you're improving it fast enough that then you've got 100 other developers that are also contributing to it at the same time? And then individual IC empowerment where then people feel like, hey, I ran into a slow test or a flaky test, and I feel like I can triage this, and I can make changes. For the architecture piece, we're still in the infancy stages of how to approach this and the strategy that we're using. But one of the ideas that has come up is how do we reduce tentpoles? And the tentpole is like when you're running your test and, let's say that it's parallelized, all of the various tests. But there is one process that takes like 20 minutes, and then the other process is completed in 5 minutes as a drastic example. And overall, you could have reduced your time if you had managed to split that 120-minute process across all the other workers who are then available for that work. So there are some tentpoles that are taking place. And that could be one first step in reducing the CI build time. There are also discussions around how to scale horizontally. Right now, we don't think that's something we can do with the service that we're using to run the test. But it's something that maybe we need to manually look into is then how do we build a queue of all these tests and not where we just split test by a file, which is typically how the Parallelize gem does it. But you could actually split up tests within a file. So if you had a particularly large file, that doesn't necessarily matter. But then building a queue of all these tests so then as each test finishes, a worker can just grab that next test. And then also you can easily scale up and scale down workers. As I'm saying that, that feels big, that's a lot to invest in. But that as an idea is how can we essentially then scale the architecture? So even as we continue to invest in the tests, in the system, and they continue to grow, our architecture can keep up with it. CHRIS: That last bit there is super interesting to me. It's something that I've looked into and haven't pursued yet. We're currently running on CircleCI with our test suite. And I don't even know that we pushed on parallelization because we're early enough on that. And we turned off bcrypt recently, which super-duper helps with the speed up. But overall, the test suite time is fine, is where I would put it. It had crept up, though, to a place where it was starting to be painful, is how I would describe it. And I think it's very easy for that to just continue growing and suddenly, it's 20 and 25 minutes. And then, depending on your merge strategy and all of that, it can be all the more complicated, and this gets in the way of deploys. And so, I think it is a super important thing to keep an eye on. I know Charity Majors pushes really hard for 15 minutes from merge to deploy to production. And so if your CI suite takes 25 minutes, then already you're stuck. As an aside, I just once more want to say out into the ether, CircleCI or any other CI platform, if you would allow me to say yes, we've already tested this Git hash, this Git SHA, or the working tree, ideally, because that's also deterministic, I would love that feature. I would love to not have to rebuild the same code when it gets merged into main, just saying once more out into the world. Also, GitHub, if you want to put me on the merge queue beta, I would love that if anybody out there is listening. [laughs] STEPH: I like how this has become a special requests hotline for all the things [laughs] that you're hoping to get a part of or features you'd like to see added. CHRIS: Hello, internet. I have some requests. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I would love to see those things, but in the world where those don't exist. The particular thing that you're talking sort of a test queue, is something that I've seen. So Knapsack is a...what's the word? It's a tool; it's a service. It's a combination of things. But it does that essentially where it starts up a local build agent. And then it basically says like, all right, give me all of the tests that you need to run, and then I will feed them back to each of the individual agents that there's one agent running per parallelized process. And so say you've got five of them. The first one says, "Hey, give me a test," and runs it. And the second one says, "Give me a test," and et cetera. And so, the queue manager on the other side is in charge of that orchestration. And it means that they basically all finish in identical time, with one being an outlier, whichever one happens to be the longest. But it's only going to be however long your longest test is is basically that outlier versus what you're describing of like, well, if we split it by file, we can end up with more naive things where there's a bunch of feature specs on one of them, and it skews by two minutes. We obviously don't want that. So Knapsack, in particular, is a tool that I've looked at, but generally, I'm very interested in that as a solution to how do we maximally take advantage of parallelization there? STEPH: Interesting. I have not heard of Knapsack. There is one that sounds similar. It's called RSpec Queue. And it does some really interesting work where it will split the individual test, so it won't do it by file. It will also look at historical data to then try to be intelligent about how it's going to split it and find the longer running test. And I believe it uses Redis to then keep track of the test set up in run and things that still need to be run. That is a gem that the team is looking into using as well. I don't know how that works if that can integrate with the current platform as we're using TeamCity to run tests. I don't know if that's something that can integrate with TeamCity, if it's a replacement. I don't have all of the knowledge about RSpec Queue yet. But it seems to do a number of the things that we're interested in. So even if we can't use the gem, then maybe it's something that we can still imitate. CHRIS: The other thing that I'm surprised we haven't said yet is this is one of the places where people would often reach for microservices. I feel like we have to have the microservice conversation at this moment. Microservices can actually be a great solution to organizational problems. As a team scales, it does become really hard to manage a large group of developers. And so microservices introduces a very fixed boundary that then draws nice lines that you can have around things. And so, the individual build time for a portion of your application can be much more manageable by virtue of that. But it has this huge cost of technical complexity and overhead and et cetera, et cetera, all of the reasons that we may not want to go that route. And so interestingly, I was just looking at Shopify's Deconstructing the Monolith blog post, which I think at this point, they've skewed a little bit more into the microservices. Shopify is huge, one of the largest Rails apps out there. And so looking at them and being like, oh, what are they doing? It's an interesting sort of plot a course and to see how long they waited before they even started thinking about the much deeper things and even exploring microservices. But in this blog post, they talk about a different approach where they stuck with sort of a monolith. But then they started to introduce Rails engines and clear encapsulation within the large codebase such that then you can actually start to say, well, we don't need to run all the tests every time because if we're making a change within this section of the application, then we just need to run those tests. I've also heard of organizations having some logic that can determine based on the code change; we know the associated test files that we should run. I'm scared of that is how I would describe it. I want to trust my test suite. I want to be able to deploy on a Friday and say if tests are green, it's going out to production. That's great. And I worry about that sort of thing. That's hard to get right. That feels like caching, right? And that's one of those things that we historically get wrong a lot. But nonetheless, that is an approach that large organizations I've heard having good success with. So some way to determine what's the affected code and what tests do we need to rerun and et cetera. And that can really drastically reduce down the scope of each CI build. But those are some larger things that I have not had to reach for on any of the applications I've worked with. I've taken different approaches, different ways to reduce the time or otherwise Parallelizer et cetera. But it's interesting for when you get to a certain scale. STEPH: Yeah, it's funny that you bring up that idea because that came up in conversation with some of the other developers as well, was the idea of, like, what if we could just not run all the tests? You changed one file, and you don't need to run everything. And I immediately was like, that sounds very cool and super hard to be able to get right. And a lot of this code is extremely coupled, which then moves to the code quality area. So I suspect a lot of the test times could be improved by creating smaller objects because right now, a lot of the tests will load the entire world because they have to. They have to test everything. And so that is creating a ton of data, and then taking a long time to run versus if we were able to split out that code into smaller objects and test in unit tests, then that would also help speed up. But that's also hard to do. Where do you look first? We do have some great data, thanks to RSpec. RSpec is letting us know how long each test file takes to run, and then we are capturing that data. So I can go look at which files and say, oh, this file takes 10 minutes to run. Let's look at that file first versus some of the other ones that are performing better. But that is a battle that will take a long time to win. And it's something that takes consistency and then also encouraging others to join that battle. So while it's very important, it doesn't address the concern of tests growing rapidly and then being able to support that. Something that you said in a previous episode also was on my mind in talking about building processes in a way that encouraged people that they can make small, quick changes. And I think that's really important. So if we can build out the architecture to help scale this so then the tests were running in say 15 minutes, then if someone saw a test and they wanted to make a small refactor, they saw a factory.create, and they're like, oh, that could be a FactoryBot.build_stubbed instead and issue that into a pull request or change request and get that merged. I don't know if people feel as comfortable doing that right now because it takes them 30 minutes or longer to run the test. But that idea of how do we get a structure in place where people can make tiny, little improvements and do that as a whole, as a team, to then work on the code quality concerns? CHRIS: That last little bit is so interesting where you're saying, like, oh, we have a FactoryBot.create, FactoryBot.Build, but it has the overhead of having to go through the 30-minute test suite. But coming back to the thing we were talking about before, what if we didn't have to run all the tests? Although I find it very hard to tell, given a code change in actual production code, what tests do I need to run? When I'm just changing a test, I'm pretty sure I know which test I need to run in order to determine if that test still runs correctly. So that feels is there an optimization that can happen there? Which is I've only made test changes; therefore only run the changed tests. And then that's an encouragement to say, like; this is a part of our codebase that we are trying to improve on. Let's optimize the iteration speed there. You'd have to figure out how to write that. And so it's probably much like my productivity adventures, maybe not a good investment. Although given that this is such an organizational concern, maybe that is the thing that's worth spending an afternoon on and seeing if it could happen. Because if you can speed that process up, get more [inaudible 23:46] and more iteration in fixing the tests, that feels like it could be a win. STEPH: I think that's a really good idea. I think we could certainly tell that if a file's changed, that it's only a test file that has changed. And then I've heard very good things from the other developers that TeamCity has a wonderful API to work with. And so there's a way that we could then tell TeamCity to say, hey,...or it may not even be a TeamCity command. It may just be somewhere in the universe we have to say, "Hey, RSpec, only run this test," or "TeamCity, we're only going to feed you this one RSpec test to run, so user agent but only run this particular test." So I really like that idea. I think that's really intriguing. And I'll bring it up with the team because that would be a huge win, especially as Joël and I are really focused more on tests. That would just improve our lives. So selfishly, I'm excited about that idea because we are touching less of the application code and more focused on improving the test at this point. CHRIS: I mean, if right now you're getting, say, 5 or 10 pull requests through a day which frankly feels like a high bar on this, if suddenly that's 10 to 20, that's material right there. STEPH: Yeah, I don't know how large of an impact it would have for the rest of the team because I don't know how often they're only making changes to a test file, but it still feels like a nice optimization to have. Cool. Well, thanks. I appreciate that idea. CHRIS: My pleasure. Mid-roll Ad And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is leading-edge application performance monitoring that's designed to help Rails developers quickly find and fix performance issues without having to deal with the headache or overhead of enterprise platform feature bloat. With a developer-centric UI and tracing logic that ties bottlenecks to source code, you can quickly pinpoint and resolve those performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, memory bloat, and much more. Scout's real-time alerting and weekly digest emails let you rest easy knowing Scout's on watch and resolving performance issues before your customers ever see them. Scout has also launched its new error monitoring feature add-on for Python applications. Now you can connect your error reporting and application monitoring data on one platform. See for yourself why developers call Scout their best friend and try our error monitoring and APM free for 14 days; no credit card needed. And as an added-on bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. Learn more at scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. CHRIS: What else is going on in my world? I continue to not code a ton which is interesting and probably makes sense for right now. But to share a small anecdote from this week, we had retro, and I ended up attending retro ever so slightly late. I was doing a hiring interview, which is super exciting. Again, for anyone that's out there, we are hiring at Sagewell Financial. And I would love to chat with you if that sounds interesting. But so I was having a wonderful hiring conversation that ran a little bit long. So I was a little bit late to retro, and I arrived, say like eight minutes in, and someone was expressing a concern. And the concern was, I very sincerely know this to be true, but they were saying in the most positive way. But they were like, "It'd be great if Chris could code more," and not in the judgmental like, Chris, why are you not getting as much done? Not in that way at all, very much in the it would be great if Chris had more time, if there wasn't as much pulling my attention in different directions. But then it kind of went into this interesting direction. So we then go back through and address the concerns and talk as a group about how we resolve them. But this one was like, my name was in the concern, again, in a very positive way, in a very supportive way. And we had a wonderful conversation, and there were really great ideas that were passed around. But man, did I feel weird having my name in a retro item. [laughs] STEPH: So one thing I've learned is that you do a really good job when you are giving presentations and being in the spotlight. But I don't think you actually love it. You love sharing content and things that you have learned. But I could see how being a focal point, especially if there's a concern or something that could have a negative connotation, that would feel squeamish. It would make me feel squeamish. CHRIS: I hadn't thought about it in that way. But as you say it, also, this conversation is a meta version of that. Like, let's talk about me talking about me. I don't want to be the center of attention. But I love technology or process. I love talking about the work. That's great. And so I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to stand in front of a room and talk about it. But yeah, when it's about me, that's weird. And so now I'm going to move...well, no, I'm not going to move on [laughs] because this is the topic right now. But so there's a bunch of things that we have been trying to introduce. And I think this is a useful part of the conversation more broadly and less about me. So one of the things that I think I mentioned in a previous episode was the introduction of point-dev, which is each week, we rotate through a person. And that person is in charge of triaging the errors, making sure that nothing is stuck in Sidekiq, responding to any support requests, et cetera, et cetera. But they're meant to be the frontline such that everyone else can be heads down and really focus on the work. And what was interesting of the three developers that are working on the project, I am point-dev this week. So I was like, yes, that's awesome this week because I'm the person on the frontline. That has not helped me, but in the future, it will. And then one of the other developers mentioned that they feel like it's really useful but also feel like it's been noisy. And we realized the previous week was their week on point-dev. But the other developer was like, "Yeah, it's been great. I haven't had to think about anything." And so they have been off of that rotation for two weeks now. They'll be taking it over next week. But it is doing exactly its job of providing that attention coverage so that they can keep their focus on the code, and that's really wonderful. So I'll be honest, when we started talking about it, there was a tiny voice in my head that was like, is this a failure mode? Should we be dealing with the noise rather than having a process to address it in the moment? Should we be dealing with the root cause rather than the symptoms? And I still think that's a good point of view. But we found so much value from this. And as I've mentioned it, many people are like, oh yeah, we have that. It's great. I've heard enough positive things. So I've backed away from that. But there was a voice in my head that was like, are we failing right now? But yeah, so point-dev has been really wonderful. And next week, I will have to...well, frankly, the next two weeks, I'm off of point-dev appointments, so I'm very excited about that. I've been doing some of the product management or sort of the tech side of the product management and helping to triage cards and make sure that there's very clear work lined up for the engineering team when they're ready to do that. I'm trying to back away from that just a little bit. And one of the things that we did there was introduced an inbox column in our Trello board. You know how I love a good inbox. You know how I love to get to inbox zero. But that is a good way for me, for anyone now in the organization, which I don't want everyone to have to learn our processes, but just saying, "This is the place that you put requests, and we will deal with them. I assure you of that." It has been great because that means I don't need to be quite as responsive in Slack. I can just gently redirect people, "Hey, if you don't mind, please put this in Slack in the inbox column, and that'll be great." That thing, though, that gentle pushback in Slack is one of the things that I've struggled with. And this was one of the more personal aspects of the conversation that happened in retro was me being, like, if we're being honest, I tried to do that. But it's not my favorite thing to do in the world. Whenever someone asks me something, I want to be helpful. I don't want to seem rude or brisk or like I'm too busy for you, et cetera, et cetera. So I will often respond to the question or do the thing that they're asking and then say, "In the future, if you could go to this other place." And ideally, I'm slowly moving forward and being like, "No, no, no, please go to the other place. We've talked about this a few times." But it is an interesting example of one of the specific aspects of my personality coming through in this. But that introduction of an inbox has been great. Love me a good inbox, as I said. And then, more generally, we just tried to talk through what are the things that I'm doing? Do I need to own all of those uniquely? And some of them the answer we decided was yes but some of them we decided no. And we started to sort of distribute the work there or some of the meetings or different aspects of it. And so overall, it was a really great conversation but also very weird for me. STEPH: Yeah, because then you wonder, am I not doing the right thing? Am I not spending my time the right way? But then hopefully, that meeting helped reinforce that yes, you are spending your time the right way and that you're doing a lot of productive things. There are just too many productive things for you to do, and so you have to prioritize those aggressively. I like all the things that you just highlighted. There's one in particular, the last one that you mentioned about finding things that you can hand off to others. And I love that for a couple of reasons. It came up in a recent conversation that I was having with some other thoughtbot developers around when someone's on a project, typically someone just falls into being the point person. They just happen to be the person that the client talks to and ask questions and goes through the most. And that's something that is okay. But we want to make sure that that's not a bad thing, that everybody is treated equally, that everybody is given equal opportunities and room to grow. And so, in my mind, whenever someone is that point person, or you have fallen into that role, it is your job to then pull other people up. So if you have been given the responsibility of running a particular meeting each week, then go ahead and do it once or twice, so you can demo it and show it to someone else as to how you do this. But then tag somebody else and say, "Hey, I'm going to let you or ask you to run this next time." So then that person can experience it. They can demo their style, and then it continues on to have more people. So I really like that you are highlighting it's not just beneficial for you to then distribute those tasks, but it's empowering for everybody else on the team as well. I'm curious, so what was the final outcome? It sounds like there are some really good things in place, and you're transitioning, handing some things off. But I can't imagine that things have gotten...all of your priorities are still there. So do you think you'll actually code more, or what's the outcome for next week? CHRIS: Short term, maybe probably not, if we're being honest, but trending in that direction. So one of the things that's going on right now is hiring. That is just an activity that takes a lot of time. And I care a lot about doing that well, both for the organization and then for individuals on the other side. I want to be respectful of their time and communicate in reasonable timelines and not leave people without an answer or follow up or those sorts of things. It probably makes sense for that to sit with me as the starting contact. And then from there, folks that are continuing on in our hiring process they're going to talk to many other members of the team, and that won't just be me. But there are a lot of first conversations that I'm having. And so right now, my schedule has a bunch of that, which is fine and good. And that will hopefully, at some point, we'll hire some great people. And then we'll be on the other side of that. And that piece of the work that I have right now goes away. Some of the other outcomes that we named there were a couple of action items. And so I think those will help, but they're sort of we got to work towards that. One is transitioning a meeting, but it's a biweekly meeting. And I'm not going to just not attend the next one. So it'll be me and one of the other developers attending to transition ownership of that meeting moving forward. And then from there, so like, two weeks from now, I will not have that consideration on my calendar. And that's like one 30-minute block that I get back or, depending on how you think about it, one block that that 30-minute broke up. I do want to touch back just on something that you're saying there. I think you're being very kind to me in saying like, no, but you've got so many things, and so it's hard to do that. I think that's true, but that's kind of the work overall, and my version of that is one thing. But everyone sort of has, as a team, we have a version of like, how are we being most productive? Are we making sure we're doing the most important things? And so it was interesting in the moment, but I think it was a very good conversation. And I want to make sure that both we as a team and then me as an individual, wherever that happens to be the case, are open to these sort of constructive things. Like, frankly, to do the work to figure out how to get work off my plate that hasn't felt like the most important thing. It felt like close to the most important thing, but then there were all the other things that I had to do. So I wasn't doing the work to figure out how to not do the work. It is a complicated sentence that I just said. But this was a case where retro, I think, very usefully highlighted that this was a good thing for us collectively to put effort into such that we can be more productive moving forward. It happened to be slightly more focused on me rather than the entirety of the team. But broadly, that kind of thinking is why I'm a huge fan of retro. I think it's a great place to take a step back think about how we're doing the work rather than just being in the work day-to-day. STEPH: So if I'm internalizing what you said correctly, let me know if not, but it sounds like you're in one of those places, and I've witnessed this with other people and myself where someone is overwhelmed. They have a lot to do, and they're very focused in that grind and in that moment of doing all the things that they have to do. And it's very hard to then say, "I'm in the weeds right now. And then I also have to figure out how to get out of the weeds." And that's a very different skill and mental space to be able to do that. Because often, when you're just in that mode, all you can focus on is a bit on survival at that time. And then it may take other people to notice to say, "Hey, you're in the weeds. We need to figure out a way to help you not live there and to find ways to distribute some of the work." Does that sound like a fair assessment? Because I think I say all that because I've just seen people in that position. And then they think back, like, oh, I should have offloaded stuff earlier. And it's like, yeah, true, totally. And it often takes a retro or someone else coming to you and saying, "Hey, I've noticed...I looked at your calendar today; how can I help?" [laughs] CHRIS: I think that's probably the right calibration. And mostly, my emphasis was just I want to make sure that broadly, any team that I'm on has the space for this sort of conversation. And that thing that you're saying exactly that phrasing of like, "Hey, I saw your calendar. How are you doing? How's that going, though? Are you feeling okay? [laughs] You can't sleep and whatnot." That can be a really useful thing to have and to have organizational norms about what are our expectations of how many meetings someone should have in a week. And where do we start to think about different things? You did use the phrase overwhelmed. I want to say that I'm like 101% whelmed. So I'm just ever so slightly overwhelmed, but it is like I'm in the weeds. I need to figure out how to clear some of the weeds so that then I can get out of it. And it was a great conversation that came from that. STEPH: That's awesome. I'm glad you got a good team that, frankly, felt comfortable bringing it up, and then that you could lean on them for ways to talk about how you could code some more and talk about priorities and where you want to focus your time. CHRIS: It will be an interesting thing. As the team grows, I don't expect this to get easier. We talked about this a number of weeks back. And I think for a while; hopefully, we clear a little bit of dust here, and then I get back to being a little bit more on the code, and that's going to happen for a while. But as I think about the longer sort of the future of the company, this is something I'm going to have to revisit a handful of times. And it's a really interesting question that I'm still struggling with internally. And where do I want to be versus what will be needed and whatnot? So it'll be interesting to see how it evolves. But for now, I think I can gain back a little bit of coding time, a little bit of maker time versus manager time, as Paul Graham's essay goes. And yeah, I think that'll be good. STEPH: Yeah, I like how you're already looking forward to the fact that it will probably fluctuate because, yeah, right now, you are sort of paying a tax. You are building up to then where you can have more people on the team. And then that may give you back some of your time where then you can code because you can outsource some of the work to them. But then, as the team grows, so are other responsibilities. And traditionally, being in a CTO role and most CTOs I know will code here and there because they want to, and they enjoy it, but it is not their full-time job. So I think you're really wise to have already noticed that and start thinking about how that's going to trend in the future. And it sounds like you might need to figure out how to throw some architecture at it. So then you can scale horizontally, and then you can just have more time to do all the things. Yeah, that's right. [laughs] CHRIS: You're suggesting microservices, right? That's how my job becomes easy? STEPH: Yeah. Well, I'm thinking more like RSpec Queue, but we'll have RSpec Chris or some version of that. CHRIS: Chris Queue. STEPH: Chris Queue. [laughs] CHRIS: And then I just paralyze my human, and then it'll be great. STEPH: Yeah, that's always worked out well in the movies. Whenever somebody clones themselves, that goes super well. CHRIS: Multiplicity is a fantastic piece of cinema, and I stand by that. STEPH: I haven't seen it, but I feel like it doesn't end well for the main character. CHRIS: I feel like every time I mention a movie, you haven't seen it. I feel like we need to do a movie marathon at some point just to catch up so that we've got shared analogies. But yeah, it's a fun movie. It's fine. It turns out fine in the end. But there are some humorous adventures that happen in the middle. Cloning maybe [laughs] isn't the most direct option to solve productivity problems. STEPH: [laughs] Yeah, I think I've got Labyrinth, Hackers, and Multiplicity now on the watch list. And I appreciate the fact that you know that I'm not likely to watch them, although out of the three, Hackers will probably happen. CHRIS: All right, what if I were to get a bunch of Pop-Tarts, non-frosted? STEPH: Ooh. CHRIS: Does that change -- STEPH: Wait, are you going to send them to me? Because if you just have them, that's no good. [laughter] CHRIS: Eat Pop-Tarts on a video call and be like, "Look at this movie. It's great." [laughter] STEPH: All right, bribery definitely works for me. [laughs] CHRIS: Okay, so got it, noted. And based on the nature of the conversation that we have devolved into here, I think we've probably reached a good point. What do you think? Should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeeeeee!!!!! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast.. Topics discussed. - What I did when the Police Stopped me - Kickbacks to Pharma - Joe Rogan backing Michelle Obama for next President - Why you are Slave - Why Voting is a bad thing and more Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast.. Topics discussed. - https://vaccineimpact.com/2022/36257-deaths-and-3244052-injuries-following-covid-shots-in-european-database-double-vaxxed-13-year-old-dies-from-heart-attack/ - https://summit.news/2022/01/14/report-german-government-considering-shutting-down-telegram/ -https://www.voanews.com/a/eu-drug-regulator-warns-against-overuse-of-covid-booster-shots/6395174.html - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693 ------- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Happy New Year (for real)! Chris and Steph both took some end-of-year time off to rest and recharge. Steph talks about some books she enjoyed, recipes she tried, and trail-walking adventures with her dog, Utah. Chris' company is now in a good position to actually start hiring within the engineering team. He's excited about that and will probably delve into more around the hiring process in the coming weeks. Since they aren't really big on New Year's Eve resolutions, Steph and Chris answer a listener question regarding toxic traits inspired by the listener question related to large pull requests and reflect on their own. The Midnight Library by Matt Haig (http://www.matthaig.com/books/midnight-library/) Tim Urban on Twitter (https://twitter.com/waitbutwhy/status/1367871165319049221) How to Stop Time by Matt Haig (http://www.matthaig.com/how-to-stop-time/) Do the Next Right Thing (https://daverupert.com/2020/09/do-the-next-right-thing/) Debugging Why Your Specs Have Slowed Down (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/debugging-why-your-specs-have-slowed-down) test-prof (https://github.com/test-prof/test-prof) Tests Oddly Slow Might Be Bcrypt (https://collectiveidea.com/blog/archives/2012/11/12/tests-oddly-slow-might-be-bcrypt) Transcript: STEPH: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, hey, Chris, what's new in your world? CHRIS: What's new in my world? Well, spoiler, we actually may have lied in a previous episode when we said, "Hey, happy New Year," because, for us, it was not actually the new year. But this, in fact, is the first episode of the new year that we're recording, that you're hearing. Anyway, this is enough breaking the fourth wall. Sorry, listener. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Inside baseball, yadda, yadda. I'm doing great. First week back. I took some amount of vacation over the holidays, which was great, recharging, all those sorts of things. But now we're hitting the ground running. And I'm actually really enjoying just getting back into the flow of things and, frankly, trying to ramp everything up, which we can probably talk about more in a moment. But how about you? How's your new year kicking off? STEPH: I like how much we plan the episodes around when it's going to release, and we're very thoughtful about this is going to be released for the new year or around Christmas time, and happy holidays to everybody. And then we get back, and we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can totally drop the facade. [laughs] We're finally back from vacation. And this is us, and this is real. CHRIS: Date math is so hard. It just drains me entirely to even try and figure out when episodes are going to actually land. And then when we get here, also, you know, I want to talk about the fact that there was vacation and things, and the realities of the work, and the ebb and flow of life. So here we are. STEPH: Same. Yeah, I love it. Because I'm in a similar spot where I took two weeks off, which was phenomenal. That's actually sticking to one of the things we talked about, for one of the things I'm looking to do is where I take just more time off. And so having the two weeks was wonderful. It was also really helpful because the client team that I'm working with also shut down around the end of the year. So they took ten days off as well. So I was like, well, that's a really good sign of encouragement that I should also just shut down since I can. So it's been delightful. And I have very little tech stuff to share because I've just been doing lots of other fun things and reading fiction, and catching up with friends and family, and trying out new recipes. That's been pretty much my last two weeks. Oh, and walks with Utah. His training is going so well where we're starting to walk off-leash on trails. And that's been awesome. CHRIS: Wow, that's a big upgrade right there. STEPH: Yeah, we're still working on that moving perimeter so he knows how far he can go. Before then, he needs to stop and check on me. But he's getting pretty good where he'll bolt ahead, but then he'll stop, and he'll look at me, and then he'll wait till I catch up. And then he'll bolt ahead again. It's really fun. CHRIS: I like that that's the version of it that we're going for. This is not like you're going to walk alongside me on the trail; it's you're obviously going to run some distance out. As long as you check back in once every 20 feet, we're good; that's fine. Any particularly good books, or recipes, or talks with friends to go with that category? But that one's probably a little more specific to you. STEPH: [laughs] Yes. There are two really good books that I read over the holidays. They're both by the same author. So I get a lot of books from my mom. She'll often pick up a book, and once she's done with it, she'll drop it off to me or vice versa. So the one that she shared with me is called The Midnight Library. It's written by Matt Haig, H-A-I-G. And it's a very interesting story. It's a bit sad where it's about a woman who decides that she no longer wants to live. And then, when she moves in that direction to go ahead and end her life, she ends up in this library. And in the library, every time she has made a different decision or made a decision in life, then there is a new book written about what that life is like. So then she has an opportunity to go explore all of these lives and see if there's a better life out there for her. It is really interesting. I highly recommend it. CHRIS: Wow. I mean, that started with, I'm going to be honest, a very heavy premise. But then the idea that's super interesting. I would, actually...I think I might read that. I tend to just read sci-fi. This is broadly in the space, but that is super interesting. There's an image that comes to mind actually as you described that. It's from Tim Urban, who's also known as Wait But Why. I think he posts under that both on Twitter, and then I think he has a blog or something to that effect. But the image is basically like, all of the timelines that you could have followed in your life. And everybody thinks about like, from this moment today. Man, I think about all of the different versions of me that could exist today. But we don't think about the same thing moving forward in time. Like, what are all the possibilities in front of me? And what you're describing of this person walking around in a library and each book represents a different fork in the road from moving forward is such an interesting idea. And I think a positive reframing of any form of regret or looking back and being like, what if I had gone the other way? It's like, yeah, but forward in time, though. I'm very intrigued by this book. STEPH: Yeah, it's really good. It definitely has a strong It's a Wonderful Life vibe. Have you ever watched that movie? CHRIS: Yes, I have. STEPH: So there's a lot of that idea of regret. And what if I had lived differently and then getting to explore? But in it's A Wonderful Life, he just explores the one version. And in the book, she's exploring many versions. So it's really neat to be like, well, what if I'd pursued this when I was younger, had done this differently? Or what if I got coffee instead of tea? There are even small, little choices that then might impact you being a different person at a point in time. The other book that I read is by the same author because I enjoyed Midnight Library so much that I happened to see one of his other books. So I picked it up. And it's called How to Stop Time. And it's about an individual who essentially lives a very long time. And there are several people in the world that are like this, but he lives for centuries. But he doesn't age, or he ages incredibly slowly, at a rate that where say that he's 100 years old, but he'll still look 16 years old. And it's very good. It's very interesting. It's a bit more sad and melancholy than I typically like to read. So that one's good. But I will add that even though I described the first one, it has a sad premise; I found The Midnight Library a little more interesting and uplifting versus the other one I found a bit more sad. CHRIS: All right. Excellent additional notes in the reading list here. So you can opt like, do you want a little bit more somber, or do you want to go a little more uplifting? Yeah, It's a Wonderful Life path being like, starts in a complicated place but don't worry, we'll get you there in the end. STEPH: But I've learned I have to be careful with the books that I pick up because I will absorb the emotions that are going on in that book. And it will legit affect me through the week or as I'm reading that book. So I have to be careful of the books that I'm reading. [laughs] Is that weird? Do you have the same thing happen for when you're reading books? CHRIS: It's interesting. I don't think of it with books as much. But I do think of it with TV shows. And so my wife and I have been very intentional when we've watched certain television shows to be like, we're going to need something to cut the intensity of this show. And the most pointed example we had was we were watching Breaking Bad, which is one of the greatest television shows of all time but also just incredibly heavy and dark at times, kind of throughout. And so we would watch an episode of Breaking Bad. And then, as a palate cleanser, we would watch an episode of Malcolm in the Middle. And so we saw the same actor but in very different facets of his performance arc and just really softened things and allowed us to, frankly, go to bed after that be able to sleep and whatnot but less so with reading. So I find it interesting that I have that distinction there. STEPH: Yeah, that is interesting. Although I definitely feel that with movies and shows as well. Or if I watch something heavy, I'm like, great, what's on Disney? [laughs] I need to wash away some of that so I can watch something happy and go to sleep. You also asked about recipes because I mentioned that's something I've been doing as well. There's a lot of plant-based books that I've picked up because that's really my favorite type of thing to make. So that's been a lot of fun. So yeah, a lot of cooking, a lot of reading. How about you? What else is going on in your world? CHRIS: Well, actually, it's a super exciting time for Sagewell Financial, the company that I've joined. We are closing our seed financing round, which the whole world of venture capital is a novel thing that I'm still not super involved in that part of the process. But it has been really interesting to watch it progress, and evolve, and take shape. But at this point, we are closing our seed round. Things have gone really well. And so we're in a position to actually start hiring, which is a whole thing to do, in particular, within the engineering group. We're hiring, I think, throughout the company, but my focus now will be bringing a few folks into the engineering team. And yeah, just trying to do that and do that well, do that intentionally, especially for the size of the team that we have now, the sort of work that we're doing, et cetera, et cetera. But if anyone out there is listening, we are looking for great folks to join the team. We are Ruby on Rails, Inertia, TypeScript. If you've listened to the show anytime recently, you've heard me talk about the tech stack plenty. But I think we're trying to do something very meaningful and help seniors manage finance, which is a complicated and, frankly, very underserved space. So it's work that I deeply believe in, and I think we're doing a good job at it. And I hope to do even a better job over time. So if that's at all interesting, definitely reach out to me. But probably in the coming weeks, you'll hear me talk more and more about hiring and technical interviews and all of those sorts of things. I got to ramp myself back up on that entire world, which is really one of those things that you should always be doing is the thought that I have in my head. Now that I'm in a position to be hiring, I wish I'd been half-hiring for the past three months, but I'll figure it out. It'll be fine. STEPH: That's such a big undertaking. Everything you're saying resonates, but also, it's like that's a lot of hard work. So if you're not in that state of really being ramped up for hiring, I understand why that would be on the backburner. And yeah, I'm excited to hear more. I've gotten to hear some more of the product details about Sagewell, but I don't think we've really talked about those features here on the show. So I would love it if we brought some more of the feature work and talked about specifically what the application does. I am intrigued speaking of how much energy goes into hiring. Where are you at in terms of how much...like, are there any particular job boards that you're going for? Or what's your current approach to hiring? CHRIS: Oh, that's a great question. I have tweeted once into the world. I have a draft of a LinkedIn post. This is very much I'm figuring out as I go. It's sort of the nature of a startup as we have so many different things to do. And frankly, even finding the time to start thinking about hiring means I'm taking time away from building features and growing out other aspects. So it's definitely a necessary thing that we're doing at this point in time. But basically, everything we're doing is just in time compiling and figuring out what are the things that are semi-urgent right now? And to be honest, I like that energy overall. I've always had in the back of my mind that I like this sort of work and this space, especially if you can do it intentionally. It shouldn't feel like everything's on fire all the time, but it should feel like a lot of constraints that force you to make decisions quickly, which, if we're being honest, I think that's something that is not my strongest suit. So it's something that I'm excited to grow that muscle as part of this work. But so, with that in mind, at this point, my goal is to just start getting the word out there into the world that we are looking to hire and get people interested and then, from there, build out what's the interview process going to look like? I will let you know when we get there; I will. I will figure that out. But it's not something that I've...I haven't actually very intentionally thought about all of this. Because if I were to do that, it would delay the amount of time until I actually say into the world, "Hey, we're hiring." So I very purposely was like, I just need to say this into the world and then continue doing the next steps in that process. I'm prone to the perfect is the enemy of the good just trying to like, I want to have a complete plan and a 27-step checklist, and a Gantt chart, and a burndown. And before I take any first action and really trying to push back, I'm going to be like, no, no, just do something, just take a step in the right direction. There's actually a blog post that comes to mind, which is by Dave Rupert, who is a former guest on this podcast. It was wonderful getting to interview him. But he wrote a blog post. The title of it is Do the Next Right, which is a line from a song in the movie Frozen 2, I believe. He is like, all right, stick with me here. And I know this is a movie for kids, maybe. But also, this is a very meaningful song. And he framed it in a way that actually was surprisingly impactful to me. And it's that idea that I'm holding on to of you can't do it all, and you can't do it perfectly. Just do the next right thing. That's what you're going to do. So we'll link to that blog post in the show notes. But that's kind of where I'm at. STEPH: I love that. I'm looking forward to reading that because that has been huge for me. I used to be held back by that idea of perfection. But then I realized other people were getting more work done more quickly. And so I was like, huh, maybe there's something to this just doing the next thing versus waiting for perfection that is really the right path. So, how do folks reach out to you? Should they reach out to you on Twitter or email? What's best for you? CHRIS: Oh yeah, Twitter. This is all probably going to be said at the end of the show as well. But Twitter @christoomey. ctoomey.com is my blog. I'm on GitHub. I make it very easy to contact me because I haven't regretted that up to this point in my life. So basically, anywhere you find me on the internet, you will be able to email me or DM me or any of the things. I'm going to see how long I can hold on to that. I want to hold on to that forever. I want just a very open-door policy. So that's where I'm at right now, but any of those starting points. And bikeshed.fm website will somehow link to me in any of the various forums, and they're all kind of linked to each other, so any of those are fine. I will happily take inquiries via any of the channels. STEPH: Cool. Well, I'm excited to hear about how it goes. CHRIS: Me too, frankly. But in a very small bit of little tech news or tech happenings from my holiday time, this was actually just before I started to go on break for the holidays. I had noticed that the test suite was getting very slow, like very, very slow but on my machine. It was getting a little bit slow on CI, but the normal amount where we just keep adding new things. And we're adding a lot of feature specs because we want to have that holistic coverage over the whole application, and we can, so for now, we're doing that. But our spec suite had gotten up to six-ish minutes on CI and had a couple of other things. We have some linting and some TypeScript and things like that. But on my machine, it was very slow. So I hadn't run the full spec suite in a long time. But I knew that running any individual spec took surprising amounts of time. And in the back of my head, I was like; I guess I hadn't configured Spring. That seems weird. I probably would have done that, but whatever. And I'd never pushed on it more until one day I ran the specs. I ran one model spec, and it took 30 seconds or something like that. And I was like, well, that's absurd. And so I started to look into it. I did some scanning around the internet. There was a wonderful post on the Giant Robots blog about how to look through things from Mike Wenger, a wonderful former thoughtboter. Unfortunately, none of the tips in there were anything meaningful for me. Everything was as I expected it to be. So I set it down. And there were a couple of times that this happened to me where I'd be like, this is frustrating. I need to look into this a little bit more, but it was never worth investing more time. But I mentioned it in passing to one of the other developers on the team. And as a holiday gift to me, this person discovered the solution. So let me describe a little bit more of what we've got working on here. On CI, which in theory is less powerful than my new, fancy M1 MacBook, on CI, we take about six minutes for the test suite. On my computer, it was taking 28 minutes and 30 seconds. So that's what we're working with. The factories are all doing normal things. We're not creating way too many database records or anything like that. So any thoughts, anything that you would inspect here? STEPH: Ooh, you've already listed a number of good things that I would check. CHRIS: Yeah, I took all the easy ones off the list. So this is a hard question at this point. To be clear, I had no ideas. STEPH: Could you tell if there's a difference if it's like the boot-up time versus the actual test running? CHRIS: Did that check; it is not the boot-up time. It is something that is happening in the process of running an individual spec. STEPH: No, I'm drawing a blank. I can't think of what else I would check from there. CHRIS: It's basically where I was at. Let me give you one additional piece of data, see if it does anything for you. I noticed that it happened basically whenever executing any factory. So I'd watch the logs. And if I create this record, it would do roughly what I expect it to. It would create the record and maybe one or two associated records because that's how Factory Bot works. But it wasn't creating a giant cascade or waterfall of records under the hood. If we create a product, the product should have an associated user. So we'll see a product and a user insert. But for some reason, that line create whatever database record was very, very slow. STEPH: Yeah, it's a good point, looking at factories because that's something I've noticed in triaging other tests is that I will often check to see how many records are created at a certain point because I've noticed there's a test where I think only one record is created, but I'll see 20. And that's an interesting artifact. But you're not running into that. But it sounds like there's more either some callback or transaction or something that's getting hung up and causing things to be slow. CHRIS: I love those ideas. I didn't even know those were sort of ideas in the back of my head. I didn't know how to even try and chase that down. There was nothing in the logs. I couldn't see anything. And again, I just kept giving up. But again, this other developer on the team found the answer. But at this point, I'll just share the answer because I think we've run out of the good bits of the trivia. It turns out bcrypt was the answer. So password-hashing was incredibly slow on my machine. What was interesting is I mentioned this to the other developer because they also have an M1. But there are three of us working on the project. The third developer does not have the M1 architecture. So that was an interesting thing. I was like, I feel like this maybe is a thing because we're both experiencing this, but the other developer isn't. So it turns out bcrypt is wildly slow on the M1 architecture, which is sort of interesting as an artifact of like, what is password hashing, and how does it work? And in normal setups, I think the way it works is Devise will say by default, "We're going to do 12 runs of bcrypt." So like take the password, put it into the hashing algorithm, take the output, put it back into the hashing algorithm, and do that loop 12 times or whatever. In test mode, it often will configure it to just run once, but it will still use the password hashing. Turns out even that was too slow for us. So we in test mode enabled it so that the password hashing algorithm was just the password. Don't do anything. Just return it directly. Turn off bcrypt; it's too painful for us. But it was very interesting to see that that was the case. STEPH: Yeah, I don't like that answer. [laughs] I'm not a fan. That is interesting and tricky. And I feel like the only way I would have found that...I'm curious how they found it because I feel like at that point, I would have started outputting something to figure out, okay, where is the slow process? What's the thing that's taking so long to return? And if I can't see tailing the test logs, then I would start just using a PUT statement to figure out what's taking a long time? And start trying to troubleshoot from there. So I'm curious, do you know how they identified that was the core issue? CHRIS: Yes, actually. I'm looking back at the pull requests right now. And I'm mentioning that this was related to the M1 architecture, but I don't think that's actually true because the blog post that they're linking to is Collective Idea blog post: Tests Oddly Slow? Might be bcrypt. And then there's a related Rails issue. They used TestProf, which is a process that you can run that will examine, I think the stack trace and say where are we spending the most time? And from that, they were able to see it looks like it's at the point where we're doing bcrypt. And so that's the answer. As an aside, my test suite went from 28 minutes and 30 seconds to 1 minute and 30 seconds with this magical speed up. STEPH: Nice. That's a great idea, TestProf. I don't know if I've used that tool. It rings a bell. But that's an awesome sales pitch for using TestProf. CHRIS: Similarly, I don't think I'd ever use it before. But it truly was this wonderful holiday gift. Because the minute I switched over to this branch, I was like, oh my God, the tests are so fast. I have one of those fancy, new fast computers, [laughs] and now they're so fast. STEPH: Wait, you had to switch to a branch? I figured it was something that you had to do special on your machine. So I'm intrigued how they fixed it for you, and then you switched to a branch and saw the speed increase. CHRIS: So they opened a pull request. And that pull request had the change in the code. So it was a code-level configuration to say, "Hey, Devise, when you do the password hashing thing, maybe just don't, maybe be easy for a moment," [laughter] but only in the test configuration. So all I had to do was check out the branch, and then that configuration was part of the Rails helper setup, and then we were good to go from there. I added an extra let me be terrified about this because the idea of not hashing passwords in production is terrifying. So let me raise...I put a couple of different guards against like, this should only ever run in test. I know it's in the spec support directory, so it shouldn't. Let me just add some other guards here just to superduper make sure we still hash passwords in production. STEPH: Devise has a bcrypt chill mode. Good to know. [laughs] And I like all the guards you put in place too. CHRIS: Yeah, it was really frankly such a relief to get that back to normal, is how I would describe it. But yeah, that's a fun little testing, and password hashing, and little adventure that I get to go on. Mid-roll Ad And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is leading-edge application performance monitoring that's designed to help Rails developers quickly find and fix performance issues without having to deal with the headache or overhead of enterprise platform feature bloat. With a developer-centric UI and tracing logic that ties bottlenecks to source code, you can quickly pinpoint and resolve those performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, memory bloat, and much more. Scout's real-time alerting and weekly digest emails let you rest easy knowing Scout's on watch and resolving performance issues before your customers ever see them. Scout has also launched its new error monitoring feature add-on for Python applications. Now you can connect your error reporting and application monitoring data on one platform. See for yourself why developers call Scout their best friend and try our error monitoring and APM free for 14 days; no credit card needed. And as an added-on bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. Learn more at scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. STEPH: So I have something that I've been wanting to ask you, and it's not tech-related. But we can make this personal and work however we want to tackle it. But there is a previous episode where we read a listener question from Brian about their self-diagnosed toxic trait being large pull requests. And Brian was being playful with the use of the term toxic trait. But it got me thinking, it's like, well, what is my toxic trait? And it seems like a fun twist on you, and I aren't really big on New Year's Eve resolutions. And in fact, I think you and I are more like if we're interested in achieving a goal, we'd rather focus on building a habit versus this specific, ambiguous we're going to publish ten blogs this year. But rather, I'd rather sit down and write for 15 minutes each day. And it seemed like a fun twist instead of thinking about what are my toxic traits, personal, at work? Large pull request is a really fun example. So I'll let you choose. I can go first, or you can go first, but I'm excited to hear your thoughts on this one. CHRIS: I think I've been talking too much. So let's have you go first at this point/ also, I want a few more seconds to think about my toxic trait. STEPH: [laughs] All right, I have a couple. So that's an interesting point start there [laughs], but here we are. So I was even bold because I asked other people. Because I'm like, well, if I'm going to be fully self-aware, I can't just...I might lie to myself. So I'm going to have to ask some other people. So I asked other folks. And my personal toxic trait is I am tardy. I am that person who I love to show up 5, 10, 15 minutes late. It's who I am. I don't find it a problem, but it often bothers other people. So that is my informed toxic trait. That might be a strong term for it. But that's the one that gives people the most grief. CHRIS: Interesting. I do find the framing of I don't find my own tardiness to be a problem as a really interesting sort of lens on it. But okay, it's okay. STEPH: I see it as long as I'm getting really good quality time with someone; if I'm five minutes late, I'm five minutes late. I think the voice going high means I'm a little defensive. [laughs] CHRIS: But at least you're self-aware about all of these aspects. [laughs] That's critical. STEPH: I am self-aware, and most of the people in my life are also self-aware, although I do correct that behavior for work. That feels more important that I be on time for everything because I don't want anyone to feel that I am not valuing their time. But when it comes to friends and family, they thankfully accept me for who I am. But then, on the work note, I started thinking about toxic traits there. And the one I came up with is that I'm a pretty empathetic person. And there's something that I learned that's called toxic empathy. And it's when you let people's emotions hijack your own emotions, or you'll prioritize someone else's physical or mental health over your own. So, for example, it could be letting another person's anxiety and stress keep you from getting your current tasks and responsibilities done. And there's a really funny tweet that I saw where someone says, "Hey, can I vent to you about something?" And the first person telling it from their perspective they're crying in the middle of a breakdown. And they're like, "Yeah, sure, what's up?" And I felt seen by that tweet. I was like, yeah; this seems like something I would do. [laughs] So over time, as something I'm aware of about myself, I've learned to set more boundaries and only keep relationships where equal support is given to both individuals. And this circles back to the book anecdote that I shared where I had to be careful about the books that I read because they can really affect my mood based on how the characters are doing in that book. So yeah, that's mine. I have one other one that I want to talk about. But I'm going to pause there so you can go. CHRIS: Okay, fun. [laughs] This is fun. And it is a challenging mental exercise. But it is also, I don't know, vulnerable, and you have to look inside and all that. I think I poked at one earlier on as we were talking, but the idea of perfect is the enemy of the good. And I don't mean this in the terrible like; what's your worst trait in a job interview? And you're like, "I'm a perfectionist." I don't mean it in that way. I mean, I have at times struggled to make progress because so much of me wants to build the complete plan, and then very meticulously worked through in exactly the order that I define, sort of like a waterfall versus agile sort of thing. And it is an ongoing very intentional body of work for me to try and break myself off those habits to try and accept what's the best thing that I can do? How can I move forward? How can I identify things that I will regret later versus things that are probably fine? They're little messes that I can clean up, that sort of thing. And even that construing it as like there's a good choice and a bad choice, and I'm trying to find the perfect choice. It's like almost nothing in the world actually falls into that shape. So perfect is the enemy of the good is a really useful phrase that I've held onto that helps me. And it's like, aiming for that perfection will cause you to miss the good that is available. And so, trying to be very intentional with that is the work that I'm doing. But that I think is a toxic trait that I have. STEPH: I really like what you just said about being able to identify regrets. That feels huge. If you can look at a moment and say, "I really want to get all this done. I will regret if I don't do this, but the rest of it can wait," that feels really significant. So the other one that I wanted to talk about is actually one that I feel like I've overcome. So this one makes me happy because I feel like I'm in a much better space with it, but it's negative self-talk. And it's essentially just how you treat yourself when you make a mistake. Or what's your internal dialogue throughout the day? And I used to be harsh on myself. If I made a mistake, I was upset, I was annoyed with myself, and I wouldn't have a kind voice. And I don't know if I've shared this with you. But over time, I've gotten much better at that. And what has really helped me with it is instead of talking to myself in an unkind voice, I talk to myself how someone who loves me will talk to me. I'm not going to talk to a friend in a really terrible, mean voice, and I wouldn't expect them to talk to me. So I channel someone that I know is very positive and supportive of me. And I will frame it in that context. So then, when I make a mistake, it's not a big deal. And I just will say kind things to myself or laugh about it and move through it. And I found that has been very helpful and also funny and maybe a little embarrassing at times because when pairing, I will talk out loud to myself. And so I'll do something silly, and I'll laugh. I'm like, "Oh, Stephanie," that was silly. And the other person hears me say that. [laughs] So it's a little entertainment for them too, I suppose. CHRIS: Having observed it, it is charming. STEPH: It's something that I've noticed that a lot of people do, and we don't talk about a lot. I mean, there's imposter syndrome. People will talk about that. But we don't often talk about how critical we are of ourselves. It's something that I will talk to people who I highly admire and just think they're incredibly good at what they do. And then when they give me a glimpse into how they think about themselves at times or how they will berate themselves for something they have done or because they didn't sit down for that 15 minutes and write per day, then it really highlights. And I hope that if we talk about this more, the fact that people tend to have such a negative inner critical voice, that maybe we can encourage people to start filtering that voice to a more kind voice and more supportive voice, and not have this unhelpful energy that's holding us back from really enjoying our work and being our best self. CHRIS: That's so interesting to hear you say all of that for one of your traits because it's very similar to the last one for myself, which is I find that I do not feel safe unless (This is going to sound perhaps boastful, and I definitely do not mean it as boastful.) but unless I'm perfect. I guess the standard that I hold myself to versus the standard that I hold others to are wildly different. Of course, for other people, yes, bugs will get into the code, or they may misunderstand something, or they may miss communicate something, or they may forget something. But if I do that, I feel unsafe, which is a thing that I've slowly come to recognize. I'm like, well, that shouldn't be true because that's definitely not how I feel about other people. That's not a reasonable standard to hold. But that needing to be perfectly secured on all fronts and have just this very defensible like, yeah, I did the work, and it's great, and that's all that's true in the world. That's not reasonable. I'm never going to achieve that. And so, for a long time, there have been moments where I just don't feel great as a result of this, as a result of the standard that I'm trying to hold myself to. But very similarly, I have brought voices into my head. In my case, I've actually identified a board of directors which are random actual people from my world but then also celebrities or fake people, and I will have conversations with them in my head. And that is a true thing about me that I'm now saying on the internet, here we are. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: And I'm going to throw it out there. It is fantastic. It is one of my favorite things that I have in my world. As a pointed example of a time that I did this, I was running a race at one point, which I occasionally will run road races. I am not good at it at all. But I was running this particular race. It was a five-mile January race a couple of years back. And I was getting towards the end, and I was just going way faster than I normally do. I was at the four-mile mark, and I was well ahead of pace. I was like, what is this? I was on track to get a personal record. I was like, this is exciting. But I didn't know if I could finish. And so I started to consult the board of directors and just check in with them and see what they would think about this. And I got weirdly emotional, and it was weirdly real is the thing that was very interesting, not like I actually believed that these people were running with me or anything of that nature. But the emotions and the feelings that I was able to build up in that moment were so real and so powerful and useful to me that it was just like, oh, okay, yeah, that's a neat trick. I'm going to hold on to that one. And it has been continuously useful moving forward from that of like, yeah, I can just have random conversations with anyone and find useful things in that and then use that to feel better about how I'm working. STEPH: I so love this idea. And I'm now thinking about who to put on my board of directors. [laughs] CHRIS: I'm telling you, everybody should have one. As I'm saying this, there is definitely a portion of me that is very self-conscious that I'm saying this on the internet because this is probably one of the weirdest things that I do. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: But it is so valuable. And it's one of those like; I like getting over that hump of like, well, this is an odd little habit that I have, but the utility that I get from it and the value is great. So highly recommend it. It's a fun game of who gets to go on your board. You can change it out every year. And it is interesting because the more formed picture that you have of the individual, the more you can have a real conversation with them, and that's fun. STEPH: So, as I'm working on forming a board of directors, how do you separate? Is it based on one person is running work and one is finance? How does each person have a role? CHRIS: So there are no rules in this game. [laughs] This is a ridiculous thing that I do. But I find value in it's sort of vaguely the same collection of individuals. Some of them are truly archetypal, even fictitious characters. As long as I can have a picture in my head of them and say, "What would they say in a situation?" If you're considering, say, moving jobs? What would Arnold Schwarzenegger have to say about that? And you'd be surprised the minute you ask it in your head; your brain is surprisingly good at these things. And it's like, let me paint The Terminator yelling at you to get the new job. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Not get to the chopper, but get the new job. And it's surprisingly effective. And so I don't have a compartmentalized like, this is my work crew, this is my life crew. It's a nonsense collection of fake people in my head that I get to talk to. I'm saying this on the internet; here we are. [laughs] STEPH: That makes sense to me, though, because as you're describing that situation, I do something similar, but I've just never thought about it in these concrete terms where I have someone in mind, and it's a real person in my life who are my confidence person. They're the one that I know they are very confident. They're going to push for the best deal for themselves. They're going to look out for themselves. They're going to look out for me. They're going to support me. I have that person. And so, even if I can't talk to them in reality, then I will still channel that energy. And then I have someone else who's like my kind filter, and they're the person that's going to be very supportive. And you make mistakes, and it's not a big deal, and you learn, and you move on. And so I have those different...and in my mind, I just saw them as coaches. Instead of board of directors, I just see them as different things that I don't see as strong in my character. And so I have these coaches in those particular areas that then I will pull energy from to then bolster myself in a particular way or skill. This was fun. I'm so glad we talked about this because that is very insightful to you, and for me as well, and to myself. CHRIS: Yeah, we went deep on this episode. STEPH: No tech but lots of deep personal insight. CHRIS: I talked a little bit about bcrypt. [laughs] You can't stop me from talking about tech for an entire episode. But then I also talked about my board of directors and the conversations I have with myself, so I feel like I rounded it out pretty good. STEPH: It's a very round episode. CHRIS: Yeah, I agree. And with that roundedness, should we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. CHRIS: The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review on iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeeeee!!! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Topics discussed.. - https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/alexa-youre-fired-quarter-users-abandon-spying-devices-within-2-weeks - https://www.rebelnews.com/pastor_artur_pawlowski_arrested_again?utm_campaign=el_arturarrest2_1_1_22&utm_medium=email&utm_source=therebel -https://dailyusa24.com/2021/12/24/urgent-abbott-binaxnow-covid-19-home-test-kit-contains-lethal-ingredient/ - https://steveblizard.substack.com/p/bosnia-become-first-country-in-europe - https://reclaimthenet.org/new-cars-sold-in-the-eu-will-be-forced-to-record-driving-data/ - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59859587 - https://dailyexpose.uk/2022/01/07/us-pilot-says-his-colleagues-are-dropping-like-flies-with-crushing-chest-pain-post-covid-19-vaccination/ - https://summit.news/2022/01/06/unvaxxed-aussies-told-they-wont-be-allowed-to-exercise-or-go-to-work/ ------- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Topics discussed.. - Archbishop Vigano tells it how it is - https://theamericanreport.org/2021/12/19/his-excellency-archbishop-carlo-maria-vigano-message-to-the-american-people/ - Ryanair prick o Leary lets cut the un jabbed out of society - https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ryanair-boss-michael-oleary-says-make-covid-19-vaccinations-mandatory-for-air-travel-41165257.html - Austria to hunt down the people with self respect - https://summit.news/2021/12/21/austria-hiring-people-to-hunt-down-vaccine-refusers/ - Rose of Tralee - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rose-of-tralee-confirms-married-and-trans-women-can-enter-festival-1.4761988 - De Blasio to send out the death squad - https://summit.news/2021/12/22/video-de-blasio-offering-new-yorkers-100-per-person-for-a-vaccination-team-to-be-allowed-into-homes/ ------- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

After a summer of intense inner-work, co-host Chris McCann couldn't help but wonder if he felt obligated to always have something to improve on. In today's episode, hosts Chris and Christina take a step back from focusing on spiritual work to allow space for them to be what they are: human. While taking some time off may feel derailing, it is often what the mind needs. Rather than forcing yourself into any practice, it is important to surrender and allow your natural intuitions to lead you where you are meant to be. Not only does active recovery allow for us to reevaluate our position and needs, but it also propels our spiritual journeys forward. Tune into this week's episode of Soul Dive to learn more about the importance of recognizing the small signs, trusting in yourself, and allowing yourself the space to take a break. Quotes • “By taking a break from yourself, you're actually gifting yourself more for the future.” (02:40-02:49 | Christina) • “You really have to trust in yourself because you can't understand everything.” (19:32-19:36 | Christina) • “Little coincidences are glorious reminders to acknowledge that we're on a good path.” (23:25-23:45 | Chris) • “All these ancient ways that have been passed down for tens of thousands of years are the perfect antidote to this collective amnesia that we're suffering.” (42:27-42:43 | Chris) • “Even though you say you're an outsider, don't act as if you are an outsider.” (47:51-47:55 | Christina) Links Visit And Subscribe To My "Chris McCann" YouTube Channel:

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening Podcast. Topics covered.. - Dutch lockdown 5pm to 5am - https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-europe-netherlands-47c9f5101d1c1f505c0b821b48102f69 - https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/carlisle-united/attendances - covid 19 and radiation exposure connection - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8580522/ - fully jabbed account for 9 out of 10 deaths - https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/12/09/distracted-by-christmas-party-data-shows-9-in-10-covid-deaths-vaccinated/ - Japan study - https://citizenfreepress.com/breaking/japan-study-vaccines-pose-7x-times-higher-death-risk-than-covid-for-young-people/ - Test blitz, take a test a day - https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/17016658/someone-covid-daily-tests-from-tuesday/ ------- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening Podcast. Topics covered.. - unvaxxed in Queensland will be denied life saving treatment -https://www.rebelnews.com/unvaccinated_to_be_denied_life_saving_medical_treatment_in_queensland - Germany locking down the healthy - https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-imposes-coronavirus-lockdown-for-the-unvaccinated/ - Greece over 60's to be fined per month for refusing to be big Pharma lab rats - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/covid-omicron-greece-vaccines-mandatory-over-60s-b969154.html - 300,000 heart related illness - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/post-pandemic-stress-disorder-heart-conditions-covid-london-physicians-b969436.html - Pfizer documents shows they know the deaths and dangers - https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/12/06/pfizer-documents-reveal-both-pfizer-and-the-fda-knew-the-risks-of-vaccine-adverse-events-and-deaths/ - Tesco Christmas add - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/nov/15/tesco-christmas-ad-complaints-santa-covid-vaccine-passport - Cruise ship - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-cases-new-orleans-norwegian-cruise-line-ship/ - Covid testing selling on DNA - https://inews.co.uk/news/covid-testing-provider-investigated-watchdog-plans-sell-customers-dna-samples-medical-research-1299909 ------ Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

“All these fires that are happening, it's gonna take a while to put them out. And you are going to be heavily involved in that,” says co-host Christina King. Today, Christina creates a spiritual agenda for co-host Chris in hopes of better understanding his mental state. Chris shares the current challenges he is facing and Christina offers helpful insights about the trajectory of Chris's spiritual journey. Chris shares a new motto he has found relatable recently: be the captain of your own ship. Chris explains that if anything goes wrong in his life, it is his responsibility to fix the problem. Christina chimes in and says that he already embraces this motto because of his background in team leading. She encourages him to understand that looks can be deceiving and that he is embracing being the captain of his own ship, just differently than he envisioned. Tune into this week's episode of Soul Dive for a conversation with co-hosts Chris McCann and Christina King about navigating Chris's internal path. Learn more about the reconfiguration of Chris's life, what Christina's visuals tell us about Chris's future, and why horses make amazing therapy animals. Quotes • “I've got to take some mushrooms and figure out what's going on here and give myself some space.” (0:09:17-0:09:22 | Chris) • “All these fires that are happening, it's gonna take a while to put them out. And you are going to be heavily involved in that.” (0:14:45-0:14:56 | Christina) • “If anything goes wrong, it's completely my fault. And something that's been coming through for me is be the captain of your own ship.” (0:27:05-0:27:12 | Chris) • “There are certain people that need to be connected with you. And so they're going to stick around.” (0:53:13-0:53:22 | Christina) • “I mean, sleep is crucial. And there are magical things that happen when you do sleep.” (1:10:18-1:10:23 | Christina) Links Visit And Subscribe To My "Chris McCann" YouTube Channel:

Steph talks about starting a new project and identifying "focused" tests while Chris shares his latest strategy for managing flaky tests. They also ponder the squishy "it depends" side of software and respond to a listener question about testing all commits in a pull request. This episode is brought to you by ScoutAPM (https://scoutapm.com/bikeshed). Give Scout a try for free today and Scout will donate $5 to the open source project of your choice when you deploy. rspec-retry (https://github.com/NoRedInk/rspec-retry) Cassidy Williams - It Depends - GitHub Universe 2021 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMWh2uLO9OM) Say No To More Process (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/say-no-to-more-process-say-yes-to-trust) StandardRB (https://github.com/testdouble/standard) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of The Bike Shed! Transcript: CHRIS: My new computer is due on the fourth. I'm so close. STEPH: On the fourth? CHRIS: On the fourth. STEPH: That's so exciting. CHRIS: And I'm very excited. But no, I don't want to upgrade any software on this computer anymore. Never again shall I update a piece of software on this computer. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: This is its final state. And then I will take its soul and move it into the new computer, and we'll go from there. [chuckles] STEPH: Take its soul. [laughs] CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we learn along the way. So, Steph, what's new in your world? STEPH: Hey, Chris. Let's see. It's been kind of a busy week. It's been a busy family week. Utah, my dog, hasn't been feeling well as you know because you and I have chatted off-mic about that a bit. So he is still recovering from something, I don't know what. He's still on most days his normal captain chaos self, but then other days, he's not feeling well. So I'm just keeping a close eye on him. And then I also got some other family illnesses going on. So it has been a busy family week for sure. On the more technical project side, I am wrapping up my current project. So I have one more week, and then I will shift into a new project, which I'm very excited about. And you and I have chatted about this several times. So there's always just that interesting phase where you're trying to wrap up and hand things off and then accomplish last-minute wishlist items for a project before then you start with a new one. So I am currently in that phase. CHRIS: How long were you on this project for? STEPH: It'll be a total of I think eight months. CHRIS: Eight months, that's healthy. That's a bunch. It's always interesting to be on a project for that long but then not longer. There were plenty of three and four-month projects that I did. And you can definitely get a large body of work done. You can look back at it and proudly stare at the code that you have written. But that length of time is always interesting to me because you end up really...for me, when I've had projects that went that long but then not longer, I always found that to be an interesting breaking point. How are you feeling moving on from it? Are you ready for something new? Are you sad to be moving on? Do you feel attached to things? STEPH: It's always a mix. I'm definitely attached to the team, and then there are always lots of things that I'd still love to work on with that team. But then, I am also excited to start something new. That's why I love this role of consulting because then I get to hop around and see new projects and challenges and work with new people. I'm thinking seven to eight months might be a sweet spot for me in terms of the length of a project. Because I find that first month with a project, I'm really still ramping up, I'm getting comfortable, I'm getting in the groove, and I'm contributing within a short amount of time. But I still feel like that first month; I'm getting really comfortable with this new environment that I'm in. And so then I have that first month. And then, at six months, I have more of heads-down time. And I get to really focus and work with a team. And then there's that transition period, and it's nice to know when that's coming up for several weeks, so then I have a couple of weeks to then start working on that transition phase. So eight months might be perfect because then it's like a month for onboarding, ramping up, getting comfortable. And then six months of focus, and then another month of just focusing on what needs to be transitioned so then I can transition off the team. CHRIS: All right. Well, now we've defined it - eight months is the perfect length of a project. STEPH: That's one of the things I like about the Boost team is because we typically have longer engagements. So that was one of the reasons when we were splitting up the teams in thoughtbot that I chose the Boost team because I was like, yeah, I like the six-month-plus project. Speaking of that wishlist, there are little things that I've wanted to make improvements on but haven't really had time to do. There's one that's currently on my mind that I figured I'd share with you in case you have thoughts on it. But I am a big proponent of using the RSpec focus filter for when running tests. So that way, I can just prefix a context it block or describe block with F, and then RSpec I can just run all the tests. But RSpec will only run the tests that I've prefixed with that F focus command., and I love it. But we are running into some challenges with it because right now, there's nothing that catches that in a pull request. So if you commit that focus filter on some of your tests, and then that gets pushed up, if someone doesn't notice it while reviewing your pull request, then that gets merged into main. And all of the tests are still green, but it's only a subset of the tests that are actually running. And so it's been on my mind that I'd love something that's going to notice that, that's going to catch it, something that is not just us humans doing our best but something that's automated that's going to notice it for us. And I have some thoughts. But I'm curious, have you run into something like this? Do you have a way that you avoid things like that from sneaking into the main branch? CHRIS: Interestingly, I have not run into this particular problem with RSpec, and that's because of the way that I run RSpec tests. I almost never use the focus functionality where you actually change the code file to say, instead of it, it is now fit to focus that it. I tend to lean into the functionality where RSpec you can pass it the line number just say, file: and then line number. And RSpec will automatically figure out which either spec or context block or entire file. And also, I have Vim stuff that allows me to do that very easily from the file. It's very rare that I would want to run more than one file. So basically, with that, I have all of the flexibility I need. And it doesn't require any changes to the file. So that's almost always how I'm working in that mode. I really love that. And it makes me so sad when I go to JavaScript test runners because they don't have that. That said, I've definitely felt a very similar thing with ESLint and ESLint yelling at me for having a console.log. And I'm like, ESLint, I'm working here. I got to debug some stuff, so if you could just calm down for a minute. And what I would like is a differentiation between these are checks that should only run in CI but definitely need to run in CI. And so I think an equivalent would be there's probably a RuboCop rule that says disallow fit or disallow any of the focus versions for RSpec. But I only want those to run in CI. And this has been a pain point that I felt a bunch of times. And it's never been painful enough that I put in the effort to fix it. But I really dislike particularly that version of I'm in my editor, and I almost always want there to be no warnings within the editor. I love that TypeScript or ESLint, or other things can run within the editor and tell me what's going on. But I want them to be contextually aware. And that's the dream I've yet to get there. STEPH: I like the idea of ESLint having a work mode where you're like, back off, I am in work mode right now. [chuckles] I understand that I won't commit this. CHRIS: I'm working here. [laughter] STEPH: And I like the idea of a RuboCop. So that's where my mind went initially is like, well, maybe there's a custom cop, or maybe there's an existing one, and I just haven't noticed it yet. But so I'm adding a rule that says, hey, if you do see an fcontext, fdescribe, ffit, something like that, please fail. Please let us know, so we don't merge this in. So that's on my wishlist, not my to-don't list. That one is on my to-do list. CHRIS: I'm also intrigued, though, because the particular failure mode that you're describing is you take what is an entire spec suite, and instead, you focus down to one context block within a given file. So previously, there were 700 specs that ran, and now there are 12. And that's actually something that I would love for Circle or whatever platform you're running your tests on to be like, hey, just as a note, you had been slowly creeping up and had hit a high watermark of roughly 700 specs. And then today, we're down to 12. So either you did some aggressive grooming, or something's wrong. But a heuristic analysis of like, I know sometimes people delete specs, and that's a thing that's okay but probably not this many. So maybe something went wrong there. STEPH: I feel like we're turning CI into this friend at the bar that's like, "Hey, you've had a couple of drinks. I just wanted to check in with you to make sure that you're good." [laughs] CHRIS: Yes. STEPH: "You've had 100 tests that were running and now only 50. Hey, friend, how are you? What's going on?" CHRIS: "This doesn't sound like you. You're normally a little more level-headed." [laughs] And that's the CI that is my friend that keeps me honest. It's like, "Wait, you promised never to overspend anymore, and yet you're overspending." I'm like, "Thank you, CI. You're right; I did say I want the test to pass." STEPH: [laughs] I love it. I'll keep you posted if I figure something out; if I either turn CI into that friend, that lets me know when my behavior has changed in a concerning way, and an intervention is needed. Or, more likely, I will see if there's a RuboCop or some other process that I can apply that will check for this, which I imagine will be fast. I mean, we're very mindful about ensuring our test suite doesn't slow down as we're running it. But I'm just thinking about this out loud. If we add that additional cop, I imagine that will be fast. So I don't think that's too much of an overhead to add to our CI process. CHRIS: If you've already got RuboCop in there, I'm guessing the incremental cost of one additional cop is very small. But yeah, it is interesting. That general thing of I want CI to go fast; I definitely feel that feel. And we're slowly creeping up on the project I'm working on. I think we're at about somewhere between five to six minutes, but we've gotten there pretty quickly where not that long ago; it was only three minutes. We're adding a lot of features specs, and so they are definitely accruing slowdowns in our CI. And they're worth it; I think, because they're so valuable. And they test the whole integration of everything, but it's a thing that I'm very closely watching. And I have a long list of things that I might pursue when I decide it's time for CI to get a haircut, as it were. STEPH: I have a very hot tip for a way to speed up your test, and that is to check if any of your tests have a very long sleep in them. That came up recently [chuckles] this week where someone was working in a test and found some relic that had been added a while back that then wasn't caught. And I think it was a sleep 30. And they were like, "Hey, I just sped up our test by 30 seconds." I was like, ooh, we should grep now to see if there's anything else like that. [laughs] CHRIS: Oh, I love the sentence we should grep now. [laughter] The correct response to this is to grep immediately. I thought you were going to go with the pro tip of you can just focus down to one context block. And then the specs will run so much faster because you're ignoring most of them, but we don't want to do that. The sleep, though, that's a pro tip. And that does feel like a thing that there could be a cop for, like, never sleep more than...frankly, let's try not to sleep at all but also, add a sleep in our specs. We can sleep in life; it's important, but anyway. [chuckles] STEPH: [laughs] That was the second hot tip, and you got it. CHRIS: Lots of hot tips. Well, I'm going to put this in the category of good idea, terrible idea. I won't call it a hot tip. It's a thing we're trying. So much as we have tried to build a spec suite that is consistent and deterministic and tells us only the truth, feature specs, even in our best efforts, still end up flaking from time to time. We'll have feature specs that fail, and then eventually, on a subsequent rerun, they will pass. And I am of the mindset that A, we should try and look into those and see if there is a real cause to it. But sometimes, just the machinery of feature specs, there's so much going on there. We've got the additional overhead of we're running it within a JavaScript context. There's just so much there that...let me say what I did, and then we can talk more about the context. So there's a gem called RSpec::Retry. It comes from the wonderful folks over at NoRedInk, a well-known Elm shop for anyone out there in the Elm world. But RSpec::Retry does basically what it says in the name. If the spec fails, you can annotate specs. In our case, we've only enabled this for the feature specs. And you can tell it to retry, and you can say, "Retry up to this many times," and et cetera, et cetera. So I have enabled this for our feature specs. And I've only enabled it on CI. That's an important distinction. This does not run locally. So if you run a feature spec and it fails locally, that's a good chance for us to intervene and look at whether or not there's some flakiness there. But on CI, I particularly don't want the case where we have a pull request, everything's great, and we merge that pull request, and then the subsequent rebuild, which again, as a note, I would rather that Circle not rebuild it because we've already built that one. But that is another topic that I have talked about in the past, and we'll probably talk about it again in the future. But setting that aside, Circle will rebuild on the main branch when we merge in, and sometimes we'll see failures there. And that's where it's most painful. Like, this is now the deploy queue. This is trying to get this out into whatever environment we're deploying to. And it is very sad when that fails. And I have to go in and manually say, hey, rebuild. I know that this works because it just worked in the pull request, and it's the same commit hash. So I know deterministically for reasons that this should work. And then it does work on a rebuild. So we introduced RSpec::Retry. We have wrapped it around our feature specs. And so now I believe we have three possible retries. So if it fails once, it'll try it again, and then it'll try it a third time. So far, we've seen each time that it has had to step in; it will pass on the subsequent run. But I don't know; there was some very gentle pushback or concerns; let's call them when I introduced this pull request from another developer on the team, saying, "I don't know, though, I feel like this is something that we should solve at the root layer. The failures are a symptom of flaky tests, or inconsistency or et cetera, and so I'd rather not do this." And I said, "Yeah, I know. But I'm going to merge it," and then I merged it. We had a better conversation about that. I didn't just broadly overrule. But I said, "I get it, but I don't see the obvious place to shore this up. I don't see where we're doing weird inconsistent things in our code. This is just, I think, inherent complexity of feature specs." So I did it, but yeah, good idea, terrible idea. What do you think, Steph? Maybe terrible is too strong of a word. Good idea, mediocre idea. STEPH: I like the original branding. I like the good idea, terrible idea. Although you're right, that terrible is a very strong branding. So I am biased right now, so I'm going to lead in answering your question by stating that because our current project has that problem as well where we have these flaky tests. And it's one of those that, yes, we need to look at them. And we have fixed a large number of them, but there are still more of them. And it becomes a question of are we actually doing something wrong here that then we need to fix? Or, like you said, is it just the nature of these features-specs? Some of them are going to occasionally fail. What reasonable improvements can we make to address this at the root cause? I'm interested enough that I haven't heard of RSpec::Retry that I want to check it out because when you add that, you annotate a test. When a test fails, does it run the entire build, or will it rerun just that test? Do you happen to know? CHRIS: Just the test. So it's configured as in a round block on the feature specs. And so you tell it like, for any feature spec, it's like config.include for feature specs RSpec::Retry or whatever. So it's just going to rerun the one feature spec that failed when and if that happens. So it's very, very precise as well in that sense where when we have a failure merging into the main branch, I have to rebuild the whole thing. So that's five or six minutes plus whatever latency for me to notice it, et cetera, whereas this is two more seconds in our CI runtime. So that's great. But again, the question is, am I hiding? Am I dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause, et cetera? STEPH: Is there a report that's provided at the end that does show these are the tests that failed and we had to rerun them? CHRIS: I believe no-ish. You can configure it to output, but it's just going to be outputting to standard out, I believe. So along with the sea of green dots, you'll see had to retry this one. So it is visible, but it's not aggregated. And the particular thing is there's the JUnit reporter that we're using. So the XML common format for this is how long our tests took to run, and these ones passed and failed. So Circle, as a particular example, has platform-level insights for that kind of stuff. And they can tell you these are your tests that fail most commonly. These are the tests that take the longest run, et cetera. I would love to get it integrated into that such that retried and then surface this to Circle. Circle could then surface it to us. But right now, I don't believe that's happening. So it is truly I will not see it unless I actively go search for it. To be truly honest, I'm probably not doing that. STEPH: Yeah, that's a good, fair, honest answer. You mentioned earlier that if you want a test to retry, you have to annotate the test. Does that mean that you get to highlight specific tests that you're marking those to say, "Hey, I know that these are flaky. I'm okay with that. Please retry them." Or does it apply to all of them? CHRIS: I think there are different ways that you can configure it. You could go the granular route of we know this is a flaky spec, so we're going to only put the retry logic around it. And that would be a normal RSpec annotation sort of tagging the spec, I think, is the terminology there. But we've configured it globally for all feature specs. So in a spec support file, we just say config.include Rspec::Retry where type is a feature. And so every feature spec now has the possibility to retry. If they pass on the first pass, which is the hope most of the time, then they will not be tried. But if they don't, if they fail, then they'll be retried up to three times or up to two additional times, I think is the total. STEPH: Okay, cool. That's helpful. So then I think I have my answer. I really think it's a good idea to automate retrying tests that we have identified that are flaky. We've tried to address the root, and our resolution was this is fine. This happens sometimes. We don't have a great way to improve this, and we want to keep the test. So we're going to highlight that this test we want to retry. And then I'm going to say it's not a great idea to turn it on for all of them just because then I have that same fear about you're now hiding any flaky tests that get introduced into the system. And nobody reasonably is going to go and read through to see which tests are going to get retried, so that part makes me nervous. CHRIS: I like it. I think it's a balanced and reasonable set of good and terrible idea. Ooh, it's perfect. I don't think we've had a balanced answer on that yet. STEPH: I don't think so. CHRIS: This is a new outcome for this segment. I agree. Ideally, in my mind, it would be getting into that XML format, the output from the tests, so that we now have this artifact, we can see which ones are flaky and eventually apply effort there. What you're saying feels totally right of we should be more particular and granular. But at the same time, the failure mode and the thing that I'm trying, I want to keep deploys going. And I only want to stop deploys if something's really broken. And if a spec retries, then I'm fine with it is where I've landed, particularly because we haven't had any real solutions where there was anything weird in our code. Like, there's just flakiness sometimes. As I say it, I feel like I'm just giving up. [laughs] And I can hear this tone of stuff's just hard sometimes, and so I've taken the easy way out. And I guess that's where I'm at right now. But I think what you're saying is a good, balanced answer here. I like it. I don't know if I'm going to do anything about it, but...[laughter] STEPH: Well, going back to when I was saying that I'm biased, our team is feeling this pain because we have flaky tests. And we're creating tickets, and we're trying to do all the right things. We create a ticket. We have that. So it's public. So people know it's been acknowledged. If someone's working on it, we let the team know; hey, I'm working on this. So we're not duplicating efforts. And so, we are trying to address all of them. But then some of them don't feel like a great investment of our time trying to improve. So that's what I really do like about the RSpec::Retry is then you can still have a resolution. Because it's either right now your resolution is to fix it or to change the code, so then maybe you can test it in a different way. There's not really a good medium step there. And so the retry feels like an additional good outcome to add to your tool bag to say, hey, I've triaged this, and this feels reasonable that we want to retry this. But then there's also that concern of we don't want to hide all of these flaky tests from ourselves in case we have done it and there is an opportunity for us to improve it. So I think that's what I do really like about it because right now, for us, when a test fails, we have to rerun the entire build, and that's painful. So if tests are taking about 20 minutes right now, then one spec fails, and then you have to wait another 20 minutes. CHRIS: I would have turned this on years ago with a 20-minute build time. [chuckles] STEPH: [laughs] Yeah, you're not wrong. But also, I didn't actually know about RSpec::Retry until today. So that may be something that we introduce into our application or something that I bring up to the team to see if it's something that we want to add. But it is interesting that initial sort of ooh kind of feeling that the team will give you introducing because it feels bad. It feels wrong to be like, hey, we're just going to let these flaky tests live on, and we're going to automate retrying them to at least speed us up. And it's just a very interesting conversation around where we want to invest our time and between the risk and pay off. And I had a similar experience this week where I had that conversation, but this one was more with myself where I was working through a particular issue where we have a state in the application where something weird was done in the past that led us to a weird state. And so someone raised a very good question where it's like, well, if what you're saying is technically an impossible state, we should make it impossible, like at the database layer. And I love that phrase. And yet, there was a part of me that was like, yes, but also doing that is not a trivial investment. And we're here because of a very weird thing that happened before. It felt one of those interesting, like, do we want to pursue the more aggressive, like, let's make this impossible for the future? Or do we want to address it for now and see if it comes back up, and then we can invest more time in it? And I had a hard time walking myself through that because my initial response was, well, yeah, totally, we should make it impossible. But then I walked through all the steps that it would take to make that happen, and it was not very trivial. And so it was one of those; it felt like the change that we ended up with was still an improvement. It was going to prevent users from seeing an error. It was still going to communicate that this state is an odd state for the application to be in. But it didn't go as far as to then add in all of the safety measures. And I felt good about it. But I had to convince myself to feel good about it. CHRIS: What you're describing there, the whole thought sequence, really feels like the encapsulation of it depends. And that being part of the journey of learning how to do software development and what it means. And you actually shared a wonderful video with me yesterday, and it was Cassidy Williams at GitHub Universe. And it was her talking to her younger self, and just it depends, and it was so true. So we will include a link to that in the show note because that was a wonderful thing for you to share. And it really does encapsulate this thing. And from the outside, before I started doing software development, I'm like, it's cool. I'm going to learn how to sling code and fix the stuff and hack, and it'll be great, and obvious, and correct, and knowable. And now I'm like, oh man, squishy nonsense. That's all it is. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Fun squishy, and I like it. It's so good. But it depends. Exactly that one where you're like, I know that there's a way to get to correctness here but is it worth the effort? And looping back to...I'm surprised at the stance that I've taken where I'm just like, yeah, I'm putting in RSpec::Retry. This feels like the right thing. I feel good about this decision. And so I've tried to poke at it a tiny bit. And I think what matters to me deeply in a list of priorities is number one correctness. I care deeply that our system behaves correctly as intended and that we are able to verify that. I want to know if the system is not behaving correctly. And that's what we've talked about, like, if the test suite is green, I want to be able to deploy. I want to feel confident in that. Flaky specs exist in this interesting space where if there is a real underlying issue, if we've architected our system in a way that causes this flakiness and that a user may ever experience that, then that is a broken system. That is an incorrect system, and I want to resolve that. But that's not the case with what we're experiencing. We're happy with the architecture of our system. And when we're resolving it, we're not even really resolving them. We're just rerunning manually at this point. We're just like, oh, that spec flaked. And there's nothing to do here because sometimes that just happens. So we're re-running manually. And so my belief is if I see all green, if the specs all pass, I know that I can deploy to production. And so if occasionally a spec is going to flake and retrying it will make it pass (and I know that pass doesn't mean oh, this time it happened to pass; it's that is the correct outcome) and we have a false negative before, then I'm happy to instrument the system in a way that hides that from me because, at this point, it does feel like noise. I'm not doing anything else with the failures when we were looking at them more pointedly. I'm not resolving those flaky specs. There are no changes that we've made to the underlying system. And they don't represent a failure mode or an incorrectness that an end-user might see. So I honestly want to paper over and hide it from myself. And that's why I've chosen this. But you can see I need to defend my actions here because I feel weird. I feel a little off about this. But as I talk through it, that is the hierarchy. I care about correctness. And then, the next thing I care about is maintaining the deployment pipeline. I want that to be as quick and as efficient as possible. And I've talked a bunch about explorations into the world of observability and trying to figure out how to do continuous deployment because I think that really encourages overall better engineering outcomes. And so first is correctness. Second is velocity. And flaky specs impact velocity heavily, but they don't actually impact correctness in the particular mode that we're experiencing them here. They definitely can. But in this case, as I look at the code, I'm like, nah, that was just noise in the system. That was just too much complexity stacked up in trying to run a feature spec that simulates a browser and a user clicking in JavaScript and all this stuff and the things. But again, [laughs] here I am. I am very defensive about this apparently. STEPH: Well, I can certainly relate because I was defending my answer to myself earlier. And it is really interesting what you're pointing out. I like how you appreciate correctness and then velocity, that those are the two things that you're going after. And flaky tests often don't highlight an incorrect system. It is highlighting that maybe our code or our tests are not as performant as we would like them to be, but the behavior is correct. So I think that's a really important thing to recognize. The part where I get squishy is where we have encountered on this project some flaky tests that did highlight that we had incorrect behavior, and there's only been maybe one or two. It was rare that it happened, but it at least has happened once or twice where it highlighted something to us that when tests were run...I think there's a whole lot of context. I won't get into it. But essentially, when tests were being run in a particular way that made them look like a flaky test, it was actually telling us something truthful about the system, that something was behaving in a way that we didn't want it to behave. So that's why I still like that triage that you have to go through. But I also agree that if you're trying to get out at a deploy, you don't want to have to deal with flaky tests. There's a time to eat your vegetables, and I don't know if it's when you've got a deploy that needs to go out. That might not be the right time to be like, oh, we've got a flaky test. We should really address this. It's like, yes; you should note to yourself, hey, have a couple of vegetables tomorrow, make a ticket, and address that flaky test but not right now. That's not the time. So I think you've struck a good balance. But I also do like the idea of annotating specific tests instead of just retrying all of them, so you don't hide anything from yourself. CHRIS: Yeah. And now that I'm saying it and now that I'm circling back around, what I'm saying is true of everything we've done so far. But it is possible that now this new mode that the system behaves in where it will essentially hide flaky specs on CI means that any new flaky regressions, as it were, will be hidden from us. And thus far, almost all or I think all of the flakiness that we've seen has basically been related to timeouts. So a different way to solve this would potentially be to up the Capybara wait time. So there are occasionally times where the system's churning through, and the various layers of the feature specs just take a little bit longer. And so they miss...I forget what it is, but it's like two seconds right now or something like that. And I can just bump that up and say it's 10 seconds. And that's a mode that if eventually, the system ends in the state that we want, I'm happy to wait a little longer to see that, and that's fine. But there are...to name some of the ways that flaky tests can actually highlight truly incorrect things; race conditions are a pretty common one where this behaves fine most of the time. But if the background job happens to succeed before the subsequent request happens, then you'll go to the page. That's a thing that a real user may experience, and in fact, it might even be more likely in production because production has differential performance characteristics on your background jobs versus your actual application. And so that's the sort of thing that would definitely be worth keeping in mind. Additionally, if there are order issues within your spec suite if the randomize...I think actually RSpec::Retry wouldn't fix this, though, because it's going to retry within the same order. So that's a case that I think would be still highlighted. It would fail three times and then move on. But those we should definitely deal with. That's a test-related thing. But the first one, race conditions, that's totally a thing. They come up all the time. And I think I've potentially hidden that from myself now. And so, I might need to lock back what I said earlier because I feel like it's been true thus far that that has not been the failure mode, but it could be moving forward. And so I really want to find out if we got flaky specs. I don't know; I feel like I've said enough about this. So I'm going to stop saying anything new. [laughs] Do you have any other thoughts on this topic? STEPH: Our emotions are a pendulum. We swing hard one way, and then we have to wait till we come back and settle in the middle. But there's that initial passion play where you're really frustrated by something, and then you swing, and you settle back towards something that's a little more neutral. CHRIS: I don't trust anyone who pretends like their opinions never change. It doesn't feel like a good way to be. STEPH: Oh, I hope that...Do people say that? I hope that's not true. I hope we are all changing our opinions as we get more information. CHRIS: Me too. Mid-roll Ad And now a quick break to hear from today's sponsor, Scout APM. Scout APM is leading-edge application performance monitoring that's designed to help Rails developers quickly find and fix performance issues without having to deal with the headache or overhead of enterprise platform feature bloat. With a developer-centric UI and tracing logic that ties bottlenecks to source code, you can quickly pinpoint and resolve those performance abnormalities like N+1 queries, slow database queries, memory bloat, and much more. Scout's real-time alerting and weekly digest emails let you rest easy knowing Scout's on watch and resolving performance issues before your customers ever see them. Scout has also launched its new error monitoring feature add-on for Python applications. Now you can connect your error reporting and application monitoring data on one platform. See for yourself why developers call Scout their best friend and try our error monitoring and APM free for 14 days; no credit card needed. And as an added-on bonus for Bike Shed listeners, Scout will donate $5 to the open-source project of your choice when you deploy. Learn more at scoutapm.com/bikeshed. That's scoutapm.com/bikeshed. CHRIS: Well, shifting only ever so slightly because it turns out it's a very related question, but we have a listener question. As always, thank you so much to everyone who sends in listener questions. We really appreciate them. And today's question comes from Mikhail, and he writes in, "Regarding the discussion in Episode 311 on requiring commits merged to be tested, I have a question on how you view multi commit PRs. Do you think all the commits in a PR should be tested or only the last one? If you test all commits in a PR, do you have any good tips on setups for that? Would you want all commits to pass all tests? For one, it helps a lot when using Git bisect. It is also a question of keeping the history clean and understandable. As a background on the project I currently work on, we have the opinion that all commits should be tested and working. We have now decided on single commit PRs only since this is the only way that we can currently get the setup reasonably on our CI. I would like to sometimes make PRs with more than one commit since I want to make commits as small as possible. In order to do that, we would have to find a way to make sure all commits in the PR are tested. There seems to be some hacky ways to accomplish this, but there is not much talk about it. Also, we are strict in requiring a linear history in all our projects. Kind regards, Mikhail." So, Steph, what do you think? STEPH: I remember reading this question when it came in. And I have an experience this week that is relevant to this mainly because I had seen this question, and I was thinking about it. And off the cuff, I haven't really thought about this. I haven't been very concerned about ensuring every single commit passes because I want to ensure that, ultimately, the final commit that I have is going in. But I also rarely have more than one commit in a PR. So that's often my default mode. There are a couple of times that I'll have two, maybe three commits, but I think that's pretty rare for me. I'll typically have just one commit. So I haven't thought about this heavily. And it's not something that frankly I've been concerned about or that I've run into issues with. From their perspective about using Git bisect, I could see how that could be troublesome, like if you're looking at a commit and you realize there's a particular commit that's already merged and that fails. The other area that I could think of where this could be problematic is if you're trying to roll back to a specific commit. And if you accidentally roll back to a commit that is technically broken, but you didn't know that because it was not the final commit as was getting tested on CI, that could happen. I haven't seen that happen. I haven't experienced it. So while that does seem like a legitimate concern, it's also one that I frankly just haven't had. But because I read this question from this person earlier this week, I actually thought about it when I was crafting a PR that had several commits in it, which is kind of unusual for me since I'm usually one or two commits in a PR. But for this one, I had several because we use standard RB in our project to handle all the formatting. And right now, we have one of those standard to-do files because we added it to the project. But there are still a number of manual fixes that need to be applied. So we just have this list of files that still need to be formatted. And as someone touches that file, we will format it, and then we'll take it out of that to-do list. So then standard RB will include it as it's linting all of our files. And I decided to do that for all of our spec files. Because I was like, well, this was the safest chunk of files to format that will require the least amount of review from folks. So I just want to address all of them in one go. But I separated the more interesting changes into different commits just to make others aware of, like, hey, this is something standard RB wants. And it was interesting enough that I thought I would point it out. So my first commit removed all the files from that to-do list, but then my other commits are the ones that made actual changes to some of those files that needed to be corrected. So technically, one or two of my middle commits didn't pass the standard RB linting. But because CI was only running that final commit, it didn't notice that. And I thought about this question, and so I intentionally went back and made sure each of those commits were correct at that point in time. And I feel good about that. But I still don't feel the need to add more process around ensuring each commit is going to be green. I think I would lean more in favor of let's keep our PR small to one or two commits. But I don't know; it's something I haven't really run into. It's an interesting question. How about you? What are your experiences, or what are your thoughts on this, Chris? CHRIS: When this question came through, I thought it was such an interesting example of considering the cost of process changes. And to once again reference one of our favorite blog posts by German Velasco, the Say No to More Process post, which we will, of course, link in the show notes. This is such a great example of there was likely a small amount of pain that was felt at one point where someone tried to run git bisect. They ran into a troublesome commit, and they were like, oh no, this happened. We need to add processes, add automation, add control to make sure this never happens again. Personally, I run git bisect very rarely. When I do, it's always a heroic moment just to get it started and to even know which is the good and which is the bad. It's always a thing anyway. So it would be sad if I ran into one of these commits. But I think this is a pretty rare outcome. I think in the particular case that you're talking about, there's probably a way to actually tease that apart. I think it sounds like you fixed those commits knowing this, maybe because you just put it in your head. But the idea that the process that this team is working on has been changed such that they only now allow single commit PRs feels like too much process in my mind. I think I'm probably 80%, maybe 90% of the time; it's only a single commit in a PR for me. But occasionally, I really value having the ability to break it out into discrete steps, like these are all logically grouped in one changeset that I want to send through. But they're discrete steps that I want to break apart so that the team can more easily review it so that we have granular separation, and I can highlight this as a reference. That's often something that I'll do is I want this commit to standalone because I want it to be referenced later on. I don't want to just fold it into the broader context in which it happened, but it's pretty rare. And so to say that we can't do that feels like we're adding process where it may not be worth it, where the cost of that process change is too high relative to the value that we're getting, which is speculatively being able to run git bisect and not hit something problematic in the future. There's also the more purist, dogmatic view of well, all commits should be passing, of course. Yeah, I totally agree with that. But what's it worth to you? How much are you willing to spend to achieve that goal? I care deeply about the correctness of my system but only the current correctness. I don't care about historical correctness as much, some. I think I'm diminishing this more than I mean to. But really back to that core question of yes, this thing has value, but is it worth the cost that we have to pay in terms of process, in terms of automation and maintenance of that automation over time, et cetera or whatever the outcome is? Is it worth that cost? And in this case, for me, this would not be worth the cost. And I would not want to adopt a workflow that says we can only ever have single commit PRs, or all commits must be run on CI or any of those variants. STEPH: This is an interesting situation where I very much agree with everything you're saying. But I actually feel like what Mikhail wants in this world; I want it too. I think it's correct in the way that I do want all the commits to pass, and I do want to know that. And I think since I do fall into the default, like you mentioned, 80%, 90% of my PRs are one commit. I just already have that. And the fact that they're enforcing that with their team is interesting. And I'm trying to think through why that feels cumbersome to enforce that. And I'm with you where I'll maybe have a refactor commit or something that goes before. And it's like, well, what's wrong with splitting that out into a separate PR? What's the pain point of that? And I think the pain point is the fact that one, you have two PRs that are stacked on each other. So you have the first one that you need to get reviewed, and then the second one; there's that bit of having to hop between the two if there's some shared context that someone can't just easily review in one pull request. But then there's also, as we just mentioned, there's CI that has to run. And so now it's running on both of them, even though maybe that's a good thing because it's running on both commits. I like the idea that every commit is tested, and every commit is green. But I actually feel like it's some of our other processes that make it cumbersome and hard to get there. And if CI did run on every commit, I think it would be ideal, but then we are increasing our CI time by running it on every commit. And then it comes down to essentially what you said, what's the risk? So if we do merge in a commit that doesn't work or has something that's failing about it but then the next commit after that fixes it, what's the risk that we're going to roll back to that one specific commit that was broken? If that's a high risk for you and your team, then adding this process is probably the really wise thing to do because you want to make sure the app doesn't go down for users. That's incredibly important. If that's not a high risk for your team, then I wouldn't add the process. CHRIS: Yeah, I totally agree. And to clarify my stances, for me, this change, this process change would not be worth the trade-off. I love the idea. I love the goal of it. But it is not worth the process change, and that's partly because I haven't particularly felt the pain. CI is not an inexhaustible resource I have learned. I'm actually somewhat proud our very small team that is working on the project that we're working on; we just recently ran out of our CI budget, and Circle was like, "Hey, we got to charge you more." And I was like, "Cool, do that." But it was like, there is cost both in terms of the time, clock time, and each PR running and all of those. We have to consider all of these different things. And hopefully, we did a useful job of framing the conversation, because as always, it depends, but it depends on what. And in this case, there's a good outcome that we want to get to, but there's an associated cost. And for any individual team, how you weigh the positive of the outcome versus how you weigh the cost will alter the decision that you make. But that's I think, critically, the thing that we have to consider. I've also noticed I've seen this conversation play out within teams where one individual may acutely feel the pain, and therefore they're anchored in that side. And the cost is irrelevant to them because they're like, I feel this pain so acutely, but other people on the team aren't working in that part of the codebase or aren't dealing with bug triage in the same way that that other developer is. And so, even within a team, there may be different levels of how you measure that. And being able to have meaningful conversations around that and productively come to a group decision and own that and move forward with that is the hard work but the important work that we have to do. STEPH: Yeah. I think that's a great summary; it depends. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. The show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. STEPH: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHRIS: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or even a review in iTunes, as it really helps other folks find the show. STEPH: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us at @_bikeshed or reach me on Twitter @SViccari. CHRIS: And I'm @christoomey STEPH: Or you can reach us at hosts@bikeshed.fm via email. CHRIS: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeeeee! Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

Another Collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast Topics covered.. - Brits to get 2 years in jail for posting false(the truth) info on the pandemic - https://www.zerohedge.com/political/brits-who-post-false-information-about-vaccines-could-be-jailed-two-years - Mums story on daughters injuries from the jab - https://rumble.com/vn0e9i-why-would-anyone-trust-public-health-officials-stephanie-de-garays-daughter.html - NHS staff to all be vexed by April or risk losing their job - https://inews.co.uk/news/health/all-nhs-staff-in-england-will-need-mandatory-covid-and-flu-vaccines-or-risk-losing-their-jobs-1281852?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral - Australia bank accounts frozen and houses seized to pay for unpaid covid fines - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10136275/Unpaid-Covid-fines-taken-bank-accounts-seized-homes-Queensland.html?fbclid=IwAR0pXJHAhHWIi8DcPVRGKRTN5uTHQ--2KBvJzrw72zEERv4oGaW-95fozV0 --- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ facebook https://www.facebook.com/royawakening Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Topics covered - Worlds first human like robot -https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1506960/robot-nurse-grace-sophia-artificial-intelligence-ai-ben-goertzel-california-robotics - Judge orders dad to get the jab or you cant see your 3 yr old - https://metro.co.uk/2021/10/16/divorce-judge-bans-dad-from-seeing-daughter-3-unless-he-gets-vaccine-15431870/ - French senate says no to covid pass - https://www.france24.com/fr/info-en-continu/20211013-covid-19-le-sénat-dit-non-à-la-vaccination-obligatoire - Nightclubs in Ireland what a joke - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nightclubs-businesses-ireland-government-people-b961345.html - Facebook developing new "Ego 4D" - https://insiderpaper.com/facebook-ego4d-ai-will-see-hear-remember-whatever-you-do/?fbclid=IwAR0caWLu64SoW4JZQ0B8-qPhyYiIkPlPnT9W11IteT7siVHQX0RHNu5ajKo - Tesco no check outs, just walk in and walk out - https://techhq.com/2021/10/tesco-is-latest-to-take-on-amazon-with-its-new-just-walk-out-store/ - Colin Powell dies of the alleged Covid - https://www.independent.ie/world-news/north-america/former-us-joint-chiefs-of-staff-chairman-colin-powell-dies-of-covid-complications-40959540.html -- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Topics discussed https://theexpose.uk/2021/10/06/uk-judge-orders-government-to-provide-evidence-in-court-that-justifies-covid-19-vaccination-of-children/ https://healthimpactnews.com/2021/covid-19-cases-plummet-in-india-as-they-distribute-ivermectin-and-hydroxychloroquine/ https://www.vaxcontrolgroup.com/ https://uk.newschant.com/politics/pupils-could-lose-out-on-face-to-face-lessons-if-they-dont-get-vaccinated-warn-ministers/ https://www.14news.com/2021/10/08/attorney-covid-19-vaccine-given-family-including-small-kids-instead-flu-shots/ -- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Topics discussed.. - Leaked pfizer emails - https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/leaked-emails-show-pfizer-wanted-to-hide-covid-vaccines-connection-to-abortion/?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=usa - Canada mandates - https://davidicke.com/2021/10/07/fascist-canada-imposes-covid-19-fake-vaccine-mandate-on-federal-workers-and-transport-as-cult-gofer-trudeau-does-as-hes-told-like-a-good-little-boy-you-are-going-to-bow-to-this-canada/ - Scotland push back on covid passport for now - https://summit.news/2021/10/05/scottish-venues-rebel-against-vaccine-passport-scheme/ - Wales covid pass - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-58600373 - Facebook ban users from viewing and sharing - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56099523 - Deaths among children up 400% - https://theexpose.uk/2021/10/05/ons-data-shows-400-percent-increase-male-children-deaths-since-they-had-covid-vaccine/ - Jfk video - https://odysee.com/@OurFreeSociety:2/Was-JFK-even-shot:0 - Fluoride petition link, please sign - https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/597714 -- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast Topics discussed. - Stay away from the jabbed - https://greatreject.org/covid-mrna-vaccine-proteine-spiking-shedding/ - Vaccines in your salad - https://www.studyfinds.org/vaccines-salad-growing-plants/ - Irelands phased return - https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/everything-you-need-know-phased-21616126 - Aldi insider spills the beans - https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/aldi-worker-secret-checkout-free-25052410 - Eric Clapton another hypocrite - https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/eric-clapton-vaccine-mandate-show-smoothie-king-1229285/ - Croatia president stops the vaccine rollout - https://theexpose.uk/2021/09/27/president-of-croatia-exposes-media-for-spreading-panic-about-covid-19-says-no-more-vaccination-allowed-in-his-country/?fbclid=IwAR27f7Y37wij9EOkoc1PLduYH9qJHsbqb0o4jitklV-7FWVuiJKwjIWo2kc Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Sponsor: www.coolabulla.com Discount Code : Awakening for 10% Discount Topics covered - No entry to Vatican without your papers - https://www.disclose.tv/vatican-allows-access-only-with-a-green-pass-from-october-1st/ - Doctor in France arrested for giving out ivermectin - https://theexpose.uk/2021/09/22/dr-jean-paul-theron-arrested-by-military-police-in-france-for-prescribing-ivermectin-to-covid-19-patients/?fbclid=IwAR08yPy3VvbfVAN8v-FVQGouWKS17_osLF0iJrYSpu6b5xZyURcc1uG4xA0 - Doctors and nurses encouraged to promote the climate change scam - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10013287/Doctors-nurses-tell-patients-need-act-fight-climate-change.html?fbclid=IwAR1qXxzVygOAaKAT7KQ2YuT9WIkaeSC_nDssY6V5LKWXXEu6d8yYo_nOW1o - Fence along polish/Belarus border - https://polandin.com/55907680/fence-along-entire-length-of-polishbelarusian-border-finished - Menstrual changes - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58573593 - Denmark concert - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/17/denmark-returns-to-pre-pandemic-life-with-a-huge-pop- concert - Strictly come dancing - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/strictly-come-dancing-vaccine-covid-b956051.html - Anti vaxxers are dangerous coming from Matt Hancock :) - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10004495/MATT-HANCOCK-time-never-come-group-dangerous-anti-vaxxers.html?ito=native_share_article-top -- Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

00:00 - Intro 1:00 - Who is Chris Zervas? 6:15 - Communication in the Workplace (3-Legged Stool) 13:50 - Contractors and Communication 15:30 - The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cobane 23:45 - Nonverbal Communication 29:00 - How Communication has Changed (Martin's Story) 31:00 - Learning Leadership Communication Skills 34:00 - Communication between Generations 40:30 - Retaining Employees 43:50 - The Importance of Culture 48:40 - Appropriate Relationships with Employees 53:30 - Vulnerability as a Leader 55:40 - Providing Feedback 1:00:00 - Power & Leadership vs. Authority & Leadership 1:01:30 - What Actions to Take 1:06:30 - Contact Chris Quotable Moments “Whatever you're doing, be all there.” – Chris “We have a tendency to destroy our relationships with important clients by our distractibility.” – Chris “60% of employees are actively or passively disengaged in their company.” – Chris “What you don't do and what you allow has a greater impact on your culture than what you're actually intentional about.” – Khalil “When you build relationships, you build trust. When you have trust… you're ultimately increasing productivity.” – Chris “All good communication starts with a question internally – ‘who's my audience?'” – Chris “Authority is given and it's a title that you assume. Leadership is earned.” – Chris “We're wired to be in community with people that interact with us with grace and truth.” – Chris Resources Visit Chris Zervas's Website Read Chris Zervas's Book Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Sponsor: www.coolabulla.com Discount Code : Awakening for 10% Discount Topics covered.. - Ask for proof of covid and get $5000 fine - https://www.news4jax.com/business/2021/09/01/ask-for-covid-vaccine-proof-face-a-5000-fine-in-florida/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wjxt4 - UK covid winter plan - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/16134347/boris-says-masks-and-work-from-home-could-return/ - Israel, the truth comes out when they think the cameras are off - https://summit.news/2021/09/13/hot-mic-catches-israeli-health-minister-admitting-vaccine-passports-are-about-coercion/ - Texas pass social media de-platform law - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58516155 - LAPD sue city over covid tax mandate - https://news.yahoo.com/lapd-employees-sue-city-over-012714545.html?guccounter=2 - PCR video - https://www.bitchute.com/video/AkiVimjiY5Dp/ - Dr. Ardis video - hospital protocols are killing people - https://www.bitchute.com/video/0a2GNxvA44a7/ - Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast.. Sponsor www.coolabulla.com Discount Code Awakening for a 10% Discount Topics covered.. - Telstra telecom says staff must get jabbed (experimented on) or face the sack - https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/thousands-of-workers-will-have-to-get-a-covid-jab-or-face-the-sack/ar-AAO8Zdy?ocid=msedgntp - Italian prime minister considering mandatory jabs for the nation -https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/italian-prime-minister-wants-mandatory-shots-for-all/ - Australian dr.chant says covid and boosters forever - https://summit.news/2021/09/06/dr-chant-covid-will-be-with-us-forever-people-will-have-to-get-used-to-endless-booster-vaccines/ - Sweden bans travellers from Israel - https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_app/sweden-bans-travelers-from-israel-one-of-the-most-vaccinated-nations_3978811.html/amp - Opioid addiction deals - https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40373798.html - Qantas pilot speaks out - https://rumble.com/vm6tgd-qantas-pilot-speaks-out-about-vaccine-mandate.html - Nigeria to ban people from worshipping and using the bank - Jimmy Savile and current labour leader Keir Starmer - Rage against the machine to play to only the vaccinated - Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening Podcast... Sponsor www.coolabulla.com Discount Code Awakening for 10% Discount Topics covered.. - Former Pfizer VP, the gloves are off - https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/former-pfizer-vp-the-gloves-are-off-u-k-govt-to-inject-all-12-15-year-olds-without-parental-consent/ - Duke University mandate but cases rise - https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article253851373.html - NSW Supreme Court hearing against vax - https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/health-wellbeing/court-to-hear-mandatory-vaccine-challenge-c-3842863 - The Mu variant - https://davidicke.com/2021/09/02/mu-new-coronavirus-variant-could-be-more-resistant-to-fake-vaccines-so-you-better-get-some-variant-fake-vaccines-which-we-just-happen-to-have-made-earlier/ - No Vax, no driving on the motorway in Pakistan - https://www.geo.tv/latest/367416-no-vaccine-no-motorway-announces-motorway-police - Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ My Reddit Account https://www.reddit.com/user/awakeningpodcast Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast Topics covered.. - https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/two-men-die-after-receiving-moderna-covid-19-vaccine-doses-that-were-among-lots-withdrawn-after-discovery-of-contaminants-40796493.html - 2/3 OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED WITH COVID IN THE UK FROM 1FEB TO 15 AUG WERE VACCINATED - BBC presenter Lisa shaw dies from covid van complications - https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-due-to-vaccine-complication-coroner-1176127.html - Covid vaxed patient testimony. - Funeral directors in Ireland busier now then last year due to people being jabbed - Vanguard and blackrock - Project veritas - Truckers in down under having none of it. Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and Awakening podcast. Sponsor Coolabulla - Website Design / Animation / Digital Art : Use Discount Code Awakening for a 10% Discount www.coolabulla.com Topics covered.. - British man gets 6 weeks in prison for not wearing a face nappy - https://summit.news/2021/08/19/british-man-in-singapore-given-6-weeks-in-prison-for-not-wearing-face-mask-psychiatric-assessment/ - Moderna new testing for HIV - https://www.cnet.com/health/moderna-to-start-testing-new-hiv-vaccines/ - Asda & national express offer coercion for the young to get jabbed - https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-asda-and-national-express-offer-rewards-for-young-people-getting-vaccine-12382805 - Irelands new robot trees - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40356071.html - radiation 2 min video - https://www.bitchute.com/video/lcYKlNE0Rtit/ - Irish footballer 23 dies 3 days after getting the jab - https://davidicke.com/2021/08/19/irish-footballer-roy-butler-dies-at-23-of-massive-brain-bleed-three-days-after-getting-fake-covid-vaccine-media-stay-silent-on-the-obvious-connection/ Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and the Awakening podcast Topics covered.. - Arnold Schwarzenegger tells anti-maskers ‘screw your freedom' despite warning of rising fascism in America https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/arnold-schwarzenegger-freedom-covid-mask-b1901107.html - If the Covid-19 vaccines work, then why are Covid-19 deaths 44 times higher than this time last year, and why are 75% of those deaths people who were vaccinated? https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/08/12/if-the-covid-19-vaccines-work-then-why-are-covid-19-deaths-44-times-higher-than-this-time-last-year-and-why-are-75-of-those-deaths-people-who-were-vaccinated/ - Fury as Scottish pupils allowed to change gender aged four without parental consent https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1476527/Scotland-news-Scottish-pupils-SNP-Nicola-Sturgeon-gender-school-children-education - Saline instead of COVID vaccine: German nurse speaks out about scandal https://www.dw.com/en/saline-instead-of-covid-vaccine-german-nurse-speaks-out-about-scandal/a-58848637 - Government ‘orders 35m Pfizer vaccines for 2022 booster campaign' https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/coronavirus/government-orders-35m-pfizer-vaccines-for-2022-booster-campaign/ar-AANcg46?ocid=winp-se - Italy to Extend Vaccine Passports to Public Transport & Schools https://summit.news/2021/08/10/italy-to-extend-vaccine-passports-to-public-transport-schools/ - Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine: rare blood clot syndrome has high mortality rate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/11/oxfordastrazeneca-vaccine-rare-blood-clot-syndrome-has-high-mortality-rate?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1628751622 - Vaccine passports, national ID's, secure credentials and considerations for building trust in a post-pandemic world https://www.entrust.com/search?searchTerm=vaccine+passports - Quandt Family https://historypoliticstheory.org/2021/08/03/uk-vax-passport-company-entrust-is-owned-by-nazi-joseph-goebbels-step-grandchildren/ Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Another collaboration this week between Mindwars and the Awakening podcast Topics covered.. - First autopsy of a dead vaxed - https://dailyexpose.co.uk/2021/08/04/first-autopsy-of-dead-person-vaccinated-for-covid-found-to-contain-spike-proteins-in-every-organ-of-body/ - In England 16 & 17 yr olds don't need parent consent to be experimented on - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9861019/16-17-year-olds-NOT-need-parental-consent-Covid-vaccines-health-chiefs-reveal.html - Israel becomes first country to push 3rd covid shot - https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/israel-becomes-first-country-in-the-world-to-push-3rd-covid-shot-for-already-vaccinated/ - Rothschild patent - https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/#query=covid-19&tab=patent - Covid exemption docs - https://news.gab.com/2021/07/29/important-download-covid-vaccine-religious-exemption-documents-here/ - Graphene oxide in the water contract -https://web.archive.org/web/20210802141741/https://www.watertechonline.com/industry/article/14207800/contract-approved-to-use-graphene-oxide-for-water-treatment - cdc partners in crime list - https://www.cdcfoundation.org/partner-list/corporations Connect with Roy: All Episodes can be found at www.awakeningpodcast.org To Subscribe or find our videos https://linktr.ee/awakeningpodcast All other Podcasts + Donation https://bio.link/podcaster Video Can be see at https://www.bitchute.com/channel/y2XWI0VCPVqX/ Connect with Chris: -- - All episodes of Mindwars can be found at https://anchor.fm/mindwars Mindwars Bitchute channel https://www.bitchute.com/channel/Gt4uHP3cjoCt/ www.mindwars.uk All Episode can be found at www.freedombroadcasters.com Please like, share and subscribe to our channels as it really helps getting the message out their and keeping people awake!

Let's talk about Agile! What is it, what do we like, we do we not like? In this episode, Steph and Chris discuss: Broadly, are they fans? What makes this practice work well? What makes this practice work poorly? And also, hit specific topics and practices like Scrum, Kanban, and Extreme Programming. Twitter Poll re: Gotime Podcast - Is Agile's Time Over? (https://twitter.com/gotimefm/status/1388126124299878412?s=21) The Mortifying Ordeal of Pairing All Day (https://www.simplermachines.com/the-mortifying-ordeal-of-pairing-all-day/) The Real Story Behind Story Points (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/the-real-story-behind-story-points) Agile Manifesto (https://agilemanifesto.org/) & Agile Manifesto -- Principles (https://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html) Extreme Programming Introduction (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/index.html) Extreme Programming Explained (https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Programming-Explained-Embrace-Change/dp/0321278658/) Ron Jeffries - What is Extreme Programming (https://ronjeffries.com/xprog/what-is-extreme-programming/) Transcript: CHRIS: I feel like we should try a couple of different byes just so we have sort of a smorgasbord of options, and then we can pick the best one. STEPH: With countdowns, [laughter] because I do so well with countdowns. CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, I thought we would try maybe something a little bit different this week, a little bit more of a structured topic. In particular, I've been gathering little tidbits of information. I've been seeing conversations happen all around the topic of Agile, things that people like about Agile, things that people hate, mostly it's things that people hate about Agile. Lots of ire on the internet about Agile, but I think also some disagreement about what it actually means. And I think; generally, you and I are probably fans, so I want to talk about that. What parts do we like? What parts do we not like? What do we think Agile actually means or, at its best, maybe what it means? But yeah, let's start at the very top stuff. Steph, what do you think about Agile? STEPH: I am generally a fan. I'm with you. And yeah, the internet being full of more negative remarks and ire, that sounds very true. But generally, I am very much a fan of Agile, and the very broad scope of this is how we work, and this is how we plan our work, and this is how we collaborate as a team, and then how we reflect on the work that we have completed. I can also pick apart some of the things I don't like about Agile, but in the broad umbrella definition, I'm a big fan. I've enjoyed that approach. Granted, I've also only ever used Agile. I haven't written software using a Waterfall style, at least not purposefully. And then if I have encountered a team that was using more of a Waterfall style, then we changed it quickly. I really only have known the more Agile approach to writing software. CHRIS: I think that's largely true of me as well, where most of my work would fit somewhere under the umbrella of lowercase "a" agile, although I've tried variants of Scrum and Kanban and a bunch of other things that we'll probably chat about today. But I think in general, I find that things are most effective; things seem to move the most smoothly. And I think the software that we come out with is the best one. It's closest to those very simple ideals of Agile. And every layer of process that gets added on even though, like you, I've not done true Waterfall where it's like six months requirements gathering and then it gets handed off, and no one talks for a while. I've never done that. STEPH: I have to interject because I actually think you have in a previous life when you were an engineer. You have done the more Waterfall. Like, you have to plan very far in advance. CHRIS: I think this is one of those cases where people think "engineering" quote, unquote like mechanical engineering is one thing and it's actually...there is a little more structure, and there's a little more necessity of sequencing where you've got to figure out what you need to buy first because sometimes it takes a while to find the particular piece of metal that you need in the world. But it also has a lot of figuring out as you go and being like, well, we've got a bunch of stuff, and we're just going to figure it out. And also, this is something that as I was studying software while working as a mechanical engineer, I started to hear about this whole Agile thing, and I was like, huh, I wonder how I can bring more of that? Because I definitely saw cases where a more Waterfall-centric approach to engineering projects was leading to bad outcomes. It's like we decided upfront what we're going to do, and then we went away for six months, and we did it. And then we came back, and it turned out it was wrong. So that was solvable along the way. There were ways to build prototypes and things like that. So that is definitely a part of the mechanical engineering world. Although I think there are some true constraints, but I think there are also some occasionally self-imposed constraints, but again, I see sort of the same thing in software. Anytime that we can shorten feedback loops, that's what I like. And I think that for me, that's the core of Agile. Specifically, to come to the Agile Manifesto, to start at the very top, the thing that kicked it all off is a very simple document that the first line of it is "We prioritize individuals and interactions over processes and tools." It's like, yeah, that seems like a great thing, having more regular conversations about the things that we're building rather than having those initial conversations. And everybody goes away for a while and tries to build that thing, and then they come back, and hopefully, the thing that they've produced actually solves the problem. But I think almost always there are some deviations like, oh, actually, it would have been better if it was like this or now that we're actually trying it in the field, it's fundamentally different. So in that way, I think there's actually a lot of commonality between mechanical engineering and software development. STEPH: Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I was thinking around the process of where you'd have to order stuff in advance versus for us; we can describe everything that we need as we need it unless we're having to procure some specific software or licensing. But otherwise, we don't have to wait on that shipment flow to then have our goods. And then, if we also mess something up, then we don't have to reorder more pieces. But I like how you started talking about that agile with lowercase "a" and then talking about the manifesto because I suspect most people are familiar with Agile, but it wouldn't hurt just to read off some of those top things about what Agile is so that way we're all on the same page together for this conversation. So you already covered the first one that talks about individuals and interactions over processes and tools, and then the others are working software over comprehensive documentation, customer collaboration over contract negotiation, and responding to change over following a plan. And that's it; those are the aspects of Agile. And so then, circling back to what you were saying earlier where people are having more criticisms around Agile, it sounds that it's less about Agile, and it's often more about the implementation of these ideas and then how you're approaching them. Because, boy, do we have several ways to implement Agile. We have Scrum; we have Kanban; there's Extreme Programming. Does that fall within the Agile umbrella? I think it does. CHRIS: I believe so. And I think a lot of the things that people take issue with particularly come from Scrum and Extreme Programming. We're taken to their extremes. Yeah, it's right there in the name, so you should probably know that it's going to be a little out there. But taken to the extreme and especially where it becomes rigid and dogmatic, then it becomes a problem. But again, so we listed out now the four items that are the core of the manifesto. There is a separate part of the manifesto, which is the principles, which digs in a little bit deeper, but it's still very much in that same ethos. But I do want to highlight because there's a subtext to the Agile Manifesto that I really love, which is given there are things on the left and then things on the right when the Agile Manifesto was presented. And so it's like we like individuals and interactions, that's the thing on the left, over processes and tools. And so the subtext below it is that is while there is value in the items on the right, we value the items on the left more. And that's one of the things that I love about the Agile Manifesto is it's not this very rigid thing that says, "This is good, and that is bad," it is a statement of a preference of well, yeah, it's definitely good to have comprehensive documentation. That's a really nice thing to have, but it's incredibly difficult. And if we have to choose, we're going to choose working software. We're going to prioritize that well before we have comprehensive documentation. So I really love the juxtaposition, and the emphasis on it's not that one is good and one is bad of these two things that we're comparing but that we have a preference, and that we want to orient our work around the items on the left rather than the items on the right, which I think the items on the right are more traditional or were more traditional to the Waterfall approach. STEPH: I like how you highlighted how those statements are presented to the reader. So then that way, as you mentioned, we still value what's on the right, but we favor more what's on the left. So one of the things that I saw recently was something that you shared with me in regards to where you're bringing up the idea of, like, hey, let's talk about Agile. And you shared with me a clip or a specific tweet that linked to a clip from the Go Time Podcast, which is a podcast that I hadn't listened to before. But I listened to that episode or at least part of it, and it's really delightful. I enjoyed listening to them very much. And they had Kris Brandow on the episode. And at the end of the episode...and they do something really fun where they ask the guests, "Do you have an unpopular opinion that you'd like to share?" And one thing that I like about their unpopular opinions is they often have polls afterwards, and they want to see was this truly an unpopular opinion? And if most people agree with you, then they actually consider it nope, he didn't win. I don't know if they use the word win if you didn't achieve the unpopular opinion. And in this instance, Kris shared the opinion that Agile is done and over with and that we should move on, which is a big thing to say. Everyone on the podcast reacted in a similar way that I would where it's like, well, how do we track things? And there are still things that we need to care about. But then also, there's a part of me that's just like, yes. I am not sure where Kris has heard it just yet when I heard that, but I'm already tuned in and very interested. And one of the things that Kris said that also really resonated with me is he mentioned that "I've never worked on a team where Scrum specifically like sprint and story points functions well," and I absolutely agree. There are parts of Scrum, we can get to the specifics that I think are fine that I've certainly used in the past and that have worked. Story points resonate deeply. I very much agree that story points are something that I do not enjoy using, and I do not find that they really lead to building software. There's even a blog post that I published along with Matt Sumner, a former thoughtboter and guest on this show, where we talk specifically about story points and some of the concerns and issues that we have with using story points. CHRIS: It was actually also the first episode where you came on as a guest to Bike Shed; that that was the topic that we dove into because it was so near and dear to our respective hearts. STEPH: That's right. I forgot about that. So yeah, story points are certainly up there on my don't list. I feel like we're doing a fashion do and don't, but we're doing the Agile do and don't list. [laughs] CHRIS: I kind of like that. Yeah, we should lean into that vibe. But yeah, continuing on with the poll there, it was interesting to see also, like you said, they tweeted out, and then there's the poll that comes after. And it was 64-ish percent of folks agreed that Agile's time is over and done with, and we need to move. Granted, it wasn't a huge sample size. It was like 85 people that took the poll but still, seeing both the statement and then also the general support from folks on the Twitter, it was interesting to see. So I do have the question of like, well, okay, if not, what else? And I share your sentiment of we should be able to ask questions and iterate. And nothing is so precious that it can't be replaced by something else that's better. So we always need to be trying to find the best ways to work. But again, I think there are still kernels of good stuff in the Agile. So I found this and I was like, oh, this is interesting. What's going on here? STEPH: So I'd love to dive into some of the specifics around Agile to understand what are the bits and pieces that work for you and the bits and pieces that don't. So if we are taking our Agile approach and reviewing the things that do and don't work and changing that process, what are the things that you would keep, and what are the things that you would throw out? CHRIS: Yeah, well, we can dig in, and we can bounce back and forth, I think, on this. But again, there are sort of a few different camps. So I collected together some of the lists of practices associated with some of the different approaches to Agile. So starting with Scrum, which I think perhaps is one of the most rigid, most structured, and perhaps most ire-deserving of the approaches to Agile, one of the first things is sprints or iterations, so the idea of starting...before you begin the work, you sit down, you define how much work you think you're going to take on. There's often an estimation process. Actually, we'll say that because that's maybe a separate idea, but even just broadly the idea of sprints and iterations, which often involve the idea of committing to a certain body of work. And that commitment is always handwavy and loose. No, no, no, we won't hold you to it, but then it's a constraint that's placed on the team. It's an expectation that's set, but it's wildly difficult to estimate software, as we all know. So sprints and iterations, personally, I am not a fan of. I really like a more continuous flow where we're constantly reprioritizing the work to be done. We're constantly measuring against what we built, what we think we need to get out there. How can we get something out in front of users as quickly as possible? But I've not found a ton of utility in the sprint or iteration workflow. But what do you think of that one? STEPH: Yeah, I'm generally not a fan of sprints, and it has taken me a while to get there. And I feel like I can admit that openly because it is something that I feel like when I first started doing software development, sprints were life. It was how you planned everything. It was how you committed to work. It's how you measured your work. It's how you then looked back to see what you could and couldn't accomplish in two weeks' time or maybe a week's time, depending on how long your sprint is. But over time, I have realized that I don't like the mentality of sprinting, and that may just be a nitpick on my part, but that is something that I don't enjoy because we write better software when we have breaks. And with the sprint methodology, there's really never that break unless you're going to plan that into your sprint. And then there's the idea of the upfront commitment, as you'd mentioned, it's one of those, don't worry, we're not going to hold you to this, but can we all commit to this work? And it's one of those you just feel compelled to say, "Yes," to the person who's asking because then you feel like a jerk if you push back and you say, "Well, actually, I don't know if I can, so I'm going to commit to way less." And then that's the approach that I started taking of, well, I don't know. So I'm going to always commit to a little bit because I'd rather overachieve and then deliver more than come in under because I could work really hard, but I've over-committed and then still feel like I didn't reach my goals, and that's a rough feeling. So I found that I was already lowering my commitment there. So then, it felt more appropriate to be in line with that sort of continuous workflow instead of trying to commit to all these features or all these tickets that needed to get done. I think those are the two areas for sprint where it doesn't align with me and where it can work for teams. But I feel like there's always that underlining unhappiness that a lot of us just don't want to talk about because we don't know what else to do other than to keep sprinting. CHRIS: Yeah, I think you said something about the specific, like nitpicking the word sprint, but I do think that's actually meaningful. It's The Bike Shed, after all; if we're not going to Bike Shed about some words, what are we doing here? But I do think that we're using that word...it's obviously the wrong word; this thing's a marathon. You can't have 26 2-week sprints back to back throughout a year. That's not going to work. That's not how humans work. But any amount that we let that thinking into our head, I think, is problematic. If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like you've come to a place of comfort around committing to a smaller body of work and then ideally overdelivering. But in my experience, many developers, perhaps even most developers, don't feel comfortable. It's so difficult to say, "Yeah, I know that the login form should take a day. That's what I feel in my heart. But let's be honest, every other time we've done a form, it's taken a week. So I'm going to say a week." It's so hard to do that. And so I think continuously, we end up in a mode where we are failing to meet the collective commitment that we made, and that's demoralizing. That's going to constantly just be a drag on the team, even if they're fake, made-up deadlines that we're constantly setting, that we're constantly not hitting. Just doing that over and over, I think, is really detrimental to the morale of the team, to the cohesions, and the feelings of are we actually doing this work? So perhaps pedantic, but I definitely share all of that. STEPH: I do want to highlight, as I mentioned earlier, I'm feeling more comfortable that I can under commit and then I can overdeliver, and that is hard. That is something that still in the moment, even today, is very hard for me to do. And it's like how you said, in my heart, I feel like this should take a day, and the heart lies. But on top of that, it's often it's also my ego that's driving me all the time. And with that, it feels like a competitive environment to me where someone's saying, "Hey, can you get this done?" And in the moment, that brings out my more competitive side where I want to say, "Yes, I can get all this done, and I can deliver all the things." When, in truth, that's often not how it's going to work out. There is one thing I do like about sprints that I want to reflect on, or perhaps it's actually two. And one of them is that we are getting together every so often, and we're agreeing on the important work to be done. And I really like that planning process that is typically coupled with a sprint. So you get together, you review the work, you address any concerns or raise any concerns. And then you could say, "Yes, we all agree this feels like important work." And essentially, we're buying into the work that's getting done, and I really like that process. And then, as an extension of that, I really like how we often then pick themes. So as we are agreeing to the work, we're often grouping together work that makes sense where it's either the most cross-functional or collaborative. We're already going to be in that space together. We're aware of what everybody is working on. And those are the aspects that I really do like about sprint and some of the other styles, that more continuous workflow of where we're always pulling from a backlog. It feels more of a grab bag in terms of I don't really know what I'm going to get next. I don't know how this work has been reviewed or vetted. I haven't really gotten to talk to anybody, perhaps. I'm making some broad statements here. But I haven't really gotten to talk to anybody from the product side to understand this change. And I also don't really know what the rest of the team is working on, so I feel more disconnected from them. CHRIS: Yeah, I definitely share that, the planning or the meeting where we discuss the work that's coming up and shape it a little bit; I love that. Although it's interesting within the context of Scrum, I think like truly to the letter Scrum; my understanding is there are very discrete meetings, and they each have a distinct purpose. And so there's the sprint planning meeting, there's a backlog grooming, there's a sprint review and the sprint retrospective. And each of those are these four distinct meetings that are happening once every two weeks or so or whatever your sprint cadence happens to be. And the splitting of those becomes interesting. And some of the practices in there, I think, are...I think you and I share not being interested in doing them or not finding them to be super valuable. But I think broadly having some version of hey, let's sit down and talk about the work before we have to do the work, definitely a fan of that. For me, it often can be let's collapse four of those meetings into one sort of thing and maybe have it more regularly or something to that effect. But actually, we'll touch on the rest of those. But if you're good with bouncing from sprint/iteration, I think we've covered that topic well. Let's move on to one that I think we can do pretty quickly because I'm pretty sure I know how we feel, but sprint planning/planning poker/estimation. How do you feel about this one, Steph? STEPH: We grouped a couple of things in there. There's sprint planning, and then there's sprint poker, and those are different to me. CHRIS: Yeah. So let's go specific to the planning poker as the most pointed version of it but also generally estimation and sizing of stories. STEPH: Nope. Throw it out. I don't know how to play poker. Let's just get rid of it. [laughs] I was never a good poker player. CHRIS: Playing poker can be fun, but planning poker...Well, so actually, to ask a slightly different question, I think in the past we've talked about keeping aspects of it, definitely not keeping the let's figure it out, let's hash it out. Let's get down to an exact point value, and then we know we can have 34 story points a week, and that's what we're going to do. But the version of using planning poker, using this numerical communication tool to see if we're aligned, that one I think we've talked about liking that. I have enjoyed that, but under the strict guidelines that we throw the numbers out. The numbers are only a communication tool. They get thrown out after the fact. We do not commit to a set amount of work or anything like that. We just use it to say, "I think it's an eight. I think it's a one. Oh, we should talk," just for that. That's when it's useful. STEPH: I agree. Yeah, in my previous answer I was being flippant about it, but I do agree very much where I don't like the specificity of where you're trying to plan exactly what numbers are these. But I do find it very helpful for the reasons that you just said where the team agrees with the estimation around how long they expect something to take. Because then that is really great where you have someone who's never touched the codebase, and they're like, "I think it's a five or whatever system we're using here." It's an elephant...whatever scale you're using. And then someone else is like, "Well, I think it's a doughnut size." I'm making up silly stuff because it's more fun for me. And then those two people can talk and reconcile. So I do like discussing the estimation of work for that purpose but then not actually writing it down or maybe going with t-shirt sizes, something that's more simple, and then doesn't have anything with points, really. Anything with points can then be gamified and also brings out people's more competitive side. So, if you can make it something that's more fun, maybe around t-shirt sizes or a bunch of cute animals, various sizes, whatever works for your team. I'm trying to think of other fun measurements now [laughs] that we could use instead of t-shirt sizes. CHRIS: There are the sizes of bottles of wine as you go past. So there's a regular bottle of wine, and then there's a magnum. And then it gets to weird names like a Nebuchadnezzar and other things. These are big performative champagne bottles. So I think we should use that kind of sizing because I think they also have a geometric progression type thing, not quite Fibonacci but something like that. So I'm going to make that push for Nebuchadnezzar as being my go-to [chuckles] sizing in story points. STEPH: I have never heard of that, and I love it. That's great. CHRIS: Okay. We'll find a relevant link to the wine bottle sizing, and we'll put that into the show notes. We will also, of course, include a link to your wonderful blog post. What's the story with story points that you wrote with Matt Sumner? Because I think that really does dial into this topic really well. And again, coming back to that core idea around Agile, while we see value in the item on the...which side is it? While we see potential value in story points, I have worked with countless teams who desperately wanted to make this thing work. So it would be great if we could quantify the work and then numerically understand the work that we had ahead of us and sequence things and talk about deadlines and whatnot. Man, that would be amazing. I would really love to do that. So with every other developer and every manager of a team of developers in the world, I have not seen it done. I am still looking for that day. When that day shows up, then I think this will be a wonderful practice. But unfortunately, my experience has been that this doesn't work, and trying to do it causes more harm than good. STEPH: I agree that I certainly understand the reason that people want story points to work because it's very nice to then say, "We can calculate, and we can measure, and then we can have delivery dates." And that's really nice from a management perspective. But that does blend in nicely to the next topic, which I think fits nicely underneath the Agile umbrella, our daily syncs. Because that does bring us closer to that goal of where we can't give real valid updates on how something is going and provide a more real estimate as to when we think something is going to get delivered. That doesn't have the same effect of where we think we're able to plan and then promise delivery dates a week in advance because we're getting those updates in real-time, but they're going to be more reliable. And that is, we're so much more than where we try to over commit to work or if we try to say how much time something is going to take. And that is so much more valuable to have that reliable update and estimate versus trying to trick ourselves into thinking that we know when something is going to get delivered. CHRIS: Yeah, I think the daily sync or sometimes called the daily Scrum, or standup, or otherwise morning meeting often in the morning, this is one that I see lots of folks really hate, and I'm personally a big fan of. This is one that I would definitely hold onto. But I think you have to be very, very purposeful with how you structure it. It really should be as short as possible. And there's one particular thing that I see very regularly in teams, which is almost a performative version of what I did yesterday. It's trying to demonstrate to the team that yes, I, in fact, did work yesterday. I was a valuable team member. Please don't let me go from the team. And I think that's the sort of thing that we should try and just get rid of. There are definitely times where what you did yesterday is relevant to the team, or you worked on something, and now you have a bunch of questions, and bringing that to the team is useful. But that version of everyone needs to prove that they did work yesterday or...it's the sort of thing like if anyone says that sort of thing, then everyone else is like if you don't say what you did yesterday, then it sounds like you did nothing because everyone else is saying what they did. So you have to, I think, get a team buy-in to do this, say, "We're not going to talk about sort of bullet-list what we did yesterday. That's not going to get us anywhere as a team." But what's useful are those little magical moments of connection where I say, "Yep, I'm working on this. I'm going to implement it in this way." And someone's like, "Wait, wait, that way? Oh, we shouldn't implement it that way." And then ideally, what happens there is okay; let's connect after this meeting. You've now made this connection, but you don't need to hold up the rest of the meeting for that. You can just say, "Cool, this connection has been made. That's an incredibly valuable little point in time, but now let's continue on with the flow of the meeting," so that it keeps that rapid pace. And so times where you're blocked, times where you have questions, times where you're just describing what you think you're going to be working on. So if anyone's like, "Oh wait, no, we needed to stop that work because we actually made a decision yesterday that impacts whether or not we actually wanted to build that feature at all." If you can head off incorrect work at the pass, there's so much potential value in that meeting that it is interruptive. And it does take up some time, but I find that it is so, so worth it if you're able to really keep it focused, keep it concise, and keep that end goal of those little connections. When those happen, they're so valuable. So I think it's really worth the input. STEPH: I'm still smiling from where you said performative of what I did yesterday because that is something that took me a while to understand, one of the things that I did not like about the daily sync or daily meeting whenever your team gets together to talk about the work that's being done. And it was finally when I realized we're just going through a list of who has the longest list of the things that they accomplished yesterday. And again, it felt like it was bringing out more of that competitive mode in folks to talk about what they did, and it didn't feel very useful. Every now and then, maybe there was one thing that was interesting that someone did. But most of the time, it was always more helpful to hear what the person was working on that day for all the reasons that you just highlighted. There is one practical concern that I have with these types of meetings or with these types of events. And it's where you'd mentioned where if we can keep it concise…and someone brings something up, and it starts to devolve into a conversation right there. So then whoever was up next is now waiting while that conversation is happening. And that part gets awkward because then there's usually one person who is then willing or no one frankly is willing to then say, "Hey, so sorry to interrupt, but let's actually table this discussion and let everybody else go, and then we'll come back to this." And if you have people on the team that have been there for a long time with that culture, then that will just work because everyone will keep each other in check. But otherwise, if you're starting that new process, or if you start to notice there's always that one person who's doing that awkward thing of trying to then set that culture of this is how we do our daily chat, and these are the things that then we wait for later, it's really hard. And I say that because I have often been that person that's in that space where then I encourage people to table a conversation. And it always just feels awkward to interrupt someone and ask them to please wait until everybody else has gone. CHRIS: I share your hesitations around that, but it is very important. And it's that sort of ideally someone in a more senior position will model that behavior and model it in a positive, friendly way. Where I have done that often it's in the form of a question, so it's, "Actually, do you think maybe we could take this offline?" or something like that. Not a command, not taking over or shutting people down because it is somewhat interjective, and you're sort of correcting course. And so, being as friendly and empathetic in that moment as possible, but that's a hard note to strike. And again, if it's something that only one person is like the taskmaster, the Hermione Granger of the team who's trying to keep everyone focused and doing their homework sort of thing, nobody wants to be that. Well, Hermione did, but otherwise, nobody wants to be. STEPH: I love all the Harry Potter-themed references that have been coming through in the last couple of episodes. And I agree it is something that's hard to help teams course-correct, but it's important, and it's very much something worth doing. I just recognized that I think that's why these roles get implemented, why there's this concept of a Scrum Master, and then why we designate these tasks to specific people because then you have someone who can do it. And then when they do interject, it feels more appropriate because that is their role, and that's one of the things that they're supposed to do versus putting it more on the social pressure of whoever is comfortable speaking up to then course-correct. So I do understand where that implementation of Agile has then tried to create those roles, which I've been on teams that have a Scrum Master. And my experience is it's often been a very positive experience because the person that is in that role is often very kind and caring about that team. And so they are a wonderful person to work with, but it's also one of those...I've also been on teams without them, and things have been fine. So I have mixed feelings about that one. It's one of those; it feels like an extra heavy process, but I've also been on teams, and it worked. CHRIS: It's interesting the way you frame it, of the utility of that role. Like, having a role where we've now all bought into the idea that this person may take these actions say, "Hey, can we take that conversation offline?" and rather than one individual choosing to do that. I like that framing. I share what you're saying about the rest of the baggage that comes along with having this formal position, and often, that person is otherwise removed from the work. That can often be an aspect of Scrum. I think that gets complicated. But now I'm wondering can we make a software solution to do this? Because, of course, that's where my head goes. Can we have a standup bot that is listening and is like, "Hmm, it seems like you two people have been talking for the past two minutes. I'm just going to interject like my little bot self that I am and ask maybe take this conversation offline," in the way that we've sort of automated a lot of code formatting things, and that's been really wonderful, so that's not a part of PR review. Can we do the same for standup? I don't know. STEPH: I think all the award ceremonies have these where they start to play the music, and that's your cue to move off stage. CHRIS: Oh, I like it. STEPH: I think that's it. [laughs] So you cue the music whenever someone has been going for quite some time. On a slightly separate note but still related to this, some conversations that have been bubbling up around me have been related specifically to this idea around stepping in to say, "Hey, I'll take on that thing that you need a volunteer for," or "Hey, I will help the team stay on track," will often fall on people with a specific personality and then they will often be the one that continues to do that. And so they will end up taking on additional work or taking on additional roles just because they may be in a more empathetic spot where they feel that's the kind, helpful thing to do. And so, we've been looking for more ways to make sure that those tasks are being distributed evenly across the team. So we're not just waiting on someone to say, "Who would volunteer for this?" And then typically being the same handful of people that are always speaking up and then volunteering for it. And then trying to shift to more of a purposeful approach of having a queue of people and then cycling through that queue, and then if someone can't do it at a certain time, then we move on and then we just put them back in the queue. But this way, we don't have people that are typically just always taking on these responsibilities. And that's something that is a new consideration for me but one that I have found really helpful to be aware of and notice on your team who's the one that's always volunteering for these roles and checking in with them to see if they're comfortable with this, or if they're feeling compelled to volunteer for stuff because they may feel more inclined to speak up versus others are okay with staying quiet. But circling back to some of the Agile discussions earlier, you'd mentioned a handful of meetings and that you have some feelings about those meetings. What are those meetings that you have feelings about? CHRIS: Yes, the meetings. So again, this is somewhat contextual to Scrum, but the structure of Scrum has a handful of meetings that sort of define the sprint. So you have some at the beginning, the middle, and the end. So there's sprint planning, there's backlog grooming, there's sprint review, which typically includes a demo for stakeholders, and then there's sprint retrospective. And these, as far as I understand it, are four distinct meetings and are intended to be kept distinct so that their purpose stays purified in each of those meetings. And I think my feelings would be that again; I don't really find a ton of value in the sprint structure or in the two-week cadence or things like that. And so I think it can make sense in those contexts to be like, we need to make sure we have space for these things. But in a more continuous context, I think the backlog grooming or, more generally, let's talk about the work that's coming up. Let's make sure that we're all unified in how we're thinking about that work, what we think matters, what's prioritized. I think that is an incredibly valuable meeting. I think sprint review and specifically demo for stakeholders I'm really intrigued by that one. I don't know that I feel like that needs to be a distinct meeting. And in fact, more and more these days, almost every feature I deliver has either screenshots or a screen recording of what that workflow looks like. So we're continuously demonstrating to the stakeholders what does this look like now that it's a real thing? What does an end-user see? What's that experience like? And in retrospect, I think we'll probably spend a minute on that one. I like retros; some people hate retros. Yeah, let's loop back to that. But of those, what are your thoughts? What do you like? What do you not like about those meetings? STEPH: I think grooming is a very helpful meeting that can help a product manager and a technical team have discussions about the upcoming work. I don't necessarily think it needs to be the whole team. I think it can be a couple of engineers from the team; maybe those people rotate, maybe it's the team lead. And they get together with the product manager, and they essentially answer any technical questions about upcoming work. So then it can be refined. So then, as we get closer to that planning session, whatever we want to call it, then it feels more in a ready state for folks to react to and then have opinions on. So I do like grooming, but I wouldn't necessarily advocate that the whole team needs to be present for those. For a demo, I'm with you; it really depends. I've worked on projects where the stakeholders are less close to GitHub and Slack and areas that we could demo some of the work that's being done, and maybe they weren't poking around on staging as much. So it was really helpful to then have a more formal demo to then show them the work that's being done. And then I've also worked on plenty of teams where a demo was something that we used as a fun internal event where we have all these different teams, and we get together. And then we get to show off all the great work that we have done across all the different products. So then us, as fellow teammates, can then celebrate what the other teams are working on. Retros, you know I love retros. I think retros are a microcosm of your team's culture and process. And if your team is struggling to have a productive retro, your team is struggling. Because I think that is representative of your team's ability to get together, and reflect, share concerns, celebrate wins, agree on what's important, and run measured experiments. And if you're not having a retro, then I think you're not going to know how your team's doing until it's too late, and it's going to be harder to course-correct. CHRIS: #HottakeswithSteph. I like it. I like the intensity that you came in with there, but I know retro is near and dear to your heart. So I'm unsurprised that that is the line that you've drawn. I definitely share all of those feelings, particularly around retro, because I think much like the daily sync, I've seen many people who are just like, "This is a bad meeting. It's useless. Nothing ever happens. I don't like it." And I'm often surprised by that because I've found so much value in it. Retro similarly is this magical meeting that can just regularly change the course of how we're working as a team. But I also have come into plenty of teams where it definitely did not have that shape, where it was basically a place that everyone sits down, and somewhat downtrodden restates their list of grievances, their airing of grievances, and then nothing changes. And much like the sprint iteration thing where you're constantly missing the commitments, and that's just going to wear a team down. I think if you constantly have retro and nothing changes and it's that same list of concerns, then that is going to be bad, but that, like you said, is not the reason not to do it. [chuckles] Oh, we just keep saying the same things in retro, so I don't think it's even that valuable. I would say that maybe we should change the things. But I've definitely been on plenty of teams where retro was just so valuable. And it's definitely one where I feel like having a facilitator, having someone who is in that particular seat trying to guide the conversation without necessarily being in the conversation, can be incredibly valuable. There are also structures that I've seen work particularly well. We have a video on Upcase that we can link to. That's a format that I've found; it's a very lightweight format, but it basically involves getting everyone's input on a positive note, on a more critical note, and then revisiting and sort of sorting and waiting, and then digging into topics that need a little bit more focus. But I think a lot of different formats can work as long as retro is a way for people to sincerely meet up, safely talk about the things that they are feeling about the work, and then ideally, some change comes about as a result of that. You mentioned having measured experiments, and I love that as a framing or like something that retro can do for us. STEPH: I really do think that retros are so important because they're the health check of the team. As you'd mentioned, if people are having a very negative retro experience, which I understand, I've had very negative retro experiences as well, and I've walked away feeling like that was not a productive use of my time. But then that is our warning. That is our signal that's saying, "Something is not right, and something's not great, and we're not working together as we really want to be working together." And this retro is just that reminder that is right in our face, that is making this so uncomfortable and feel like a waste of our time because it is informing us that something needs to be improved upon. And we can feel like retros are not productive when we feel powerless to make that change. And that again is then another discussion to have with the team, to have with management, leadership, to talk about how do we get the power to then make the changes that we need to then have productive, happy retros? Because that's going to be a reflection that you have a happy, productive team. CHRIS: Love it, love the framing, love the symmetry there between team happiness and retro happiness. So to summarize, I think we've gone through most of Scrum now. So just to...correct me if I'm wrong on any of these, but I believe sprints and iterations, nah, we'll leave it. Planning poker, definitely not. That doesn't seem good, although maybe just to bring up conversations, but not as an artifact that we save in any way. And then otherwise, daily sync, we're fans. Retro, definitely fans. Sprint review, backlog grooming, some version of those, a lightweight version of a bunch of the meetings seems may be good, but a couple of things definitely are going to leave on the cutting-room floor. Does that sound about right to you for Scrum specifically? We've got other topics to cover. STEPH: Yep. All of that list sounds really good. CHRIS: All right. So we've now found our refined version of Scrum, re-Scrum as we'll call it. But now there's a couple of other pieces...So Scrum is very focused on the ceremonies and the team activities, but there's another facet of the Agile umbrella, which is Extreme Programming, which that's a book. I believe Extreme Programming Explained is the name of the book. And there are various different links that we'll include to point at those. But there are two particular practices that stand out that I have heard some people love, some people do not. So we'll go into both of them. The first is pair programming. What do you think, Steph? Do you like pair programming? STEPH: I do. I'm a huge fan. [laughs] Yes, I very much like pair programming, although it still has its limitations. I definitely want time on my own, and I can get exhausted from pair programming. It is a very vulnerable experience, too, where you have to share with someone: this is what I know, this is how I work, this is how I think. And I think that is incredibly challenging. I find that I am typically more productive when I'm pairing with someone or when I have the opportunity to pair with someone at least every couple of days. CHRIS: Yep. I'm definitely a huge fan of pairing. Although I think specifically to Extreme Programming, I think the idea is 100% pairing. I think you already spoke to this, but pairing is exhausting. And the idea of 100% pairing is I can't really even imagine that; even 50% pairing feels like an incredibly high bar to hold for any extended period of time. There's a recent article that was going around the mortifying ordeal of pairing all day, which spoke of one person's experiences getting deeply burnt out just going through that process. And so, as valuable as pairing is, it's definitely a tool to be used not all the time. That feels like a lot. STEPH: That's a lot of Stephanie singing because I tend to sing a lot whenever I'm stuck or thinking through things. So that's a lot of singing that I don't know if the world wants. CHRIS: I mean, based on all of the various Bike Shed intros that involve you singing, I think the world wants it. That's maybe one person's take. But definitely, something that you said of there's a vulnerability to it. And so many pairing sessions I've either been the one saying this or someone else that I was pairing with has said this to me, but they're like, "I swear I know how to type, just now that someone's looking, my hands don't work." It's like you're in a dream, and your legs don't work. You're like, I know how to run, I swear. But for some reason, my legs are made of jelly right now. Or you can't remember a particular method, or there's just something that happens, and so getting over that hump, getting comfortable with it, I think it is a skill and something to become accustomed to. And so, again, being conscious of that when you start doing it is super important. STEPH: I don't know if this is true because I only have access to people's thoughts when I'm pairing with them, and then they're sharing their thoughts with me. But I do feel like people tend to beat themselves up more when they have someone watching because then you feel the need to say, "Oh, I normally can type, but because someone's watching..." which is so true; that definitely happens. But those moments are some of those really great moments to then reflect on the fact that just because someone's watching us doesn't mean that then we suddenly need to beat ourselves up. And I don't know how philosophical that I want to get with this, but I feel like there are so many opportunities while pair programming to then encourage other people around us to be kind to themselves. That is one of the things that I have really benefited from pair programming is learning to be more kind to myself. And even if I don't know exactly what's happening or what I'm doing and I may not be as confident with someone else, I can still be positive and kind. Just because you're in a vulnerable space doesn't mean that you then need to be unkind to yourself. CHRIS: Yeah. I definitely agree with the idea of being kind to yourself also, where you can, be kind to someone else who you're pairing with, especially if they're finding that they're like, "Ah, suddenly my hands don't quite work." But I have pretty uniformly seen that a pairing session may start out that way. And then as everybody kind of just relaxes into it, suddenly you'll see someone just kind of flying around their editor. And you're like, wait, what just happened there? That was so fast. I don't even know. And so there's just this comfort level that sometimes it takes a little bit of time to ease into. But yeah, so pair programming, broadly yes. 100%, oh, that's going to be a no, no, thank you, not that. All right, so one other practice that comes from Extreme Programming, which is Test-Driven Development AKA TDD. What do you think about that one, Steph? STEPH: I feel like you're giving me lay-up questions here. For anyone that's familiar with us, [laughs] I feel like this is an easy one. Test-Driven Development is a thing. It's a thing that I enjoy. I don't always write tests first, though, so I don't always follow TDD, but I am definitely a fan of tests. So, I guess in that light, it's not so much that I adhere always to TDD. I don't feel the need that I have to write tests first, but I have found that with practice, that often helps me write code where I have tests then help me write out the logic for my code. So generally, yes, thumbs up on TDD, but I'm also not terribly strict about it where if you want to write some code first, write some code first. CHRIS: Yeah, I think I'm definitely in the mode where I like testing. I like Test-Driven Development. I can't always pull it off, frankly. It's hard. It is hard to know how to write a test in advance of the implementation that you're going to write such that the test will correctly constrain the system that you're about to write. That takes a couple of levels of knowledge that if I'm writing a Rail's controller action form sequence, I can probably TDD that because I've done it so many times. But if I'm doing something that's a little bit more new, novel, less familiar to me, then likely I won't be able to pull it off. TDD is like a fancy move that I don't always have available to me. But I consider that whenever I'm in that mode like that's not oh, it's fine to just write the thing before the test. Like, I want to be able to do TDD 100% of the time. I'm just not a good enough developer, frankly. And I don't know that I ever will be because I always want to be working a little bit past the edge of my comfort. So it's a delicate line of when I will not use TDD, but wherever I can, wherever I do have that level of knowledge of the system and the frameworks and whatnot built up, I find it is a vastly more effective way to work. It's not that I feel cool when I do it. It's like I feel much more effective. It helps me stay focused and on task and get the thing done. So it's very utilitarian in that way but also not something I can always pull off. STEPH: So, circling back to when we first started chatting, you were asking about Agile and then my thoughts about it. And having this conversation with you, I'm realizing, or I think I was already aware, but it's helping me re-solidify I'm very much a fan of Agile. There are specific implementations of Agile that I don't find enjoyable, and I don't find helpful to writing software, and I don't find helpful from the project management side either. But broadly speaking, I'm still very much a fan of the approach that we use generally for Agile, where we want to work in small deliverable increments, and then we also want to have the ability to change any moment what is the most important thing to work on? To me, that is the heart of following the Agile process. And I don't think that's going anywhere. Like, I don't think Agile's going to disappear. But I wouldn't be surprised if we see another implementation of an Agile variety of the things that you and I just shared and the things that we like. And so, I feel like most teams that I work with follow Agile within their own unique bespoke version. And we don't have to give it names because everybody's going to have their own custom version where they decide which process works for them and which one doesn't work for them. And that's what retros are for so then you can figure out which process works for you. CHRIS: Once more, Steph on the record about her love of retro. I think the core of Agile, the Manifesto, those core ideas about small iterations, delivering value, staying close to stakeholders, all of that feels deeply true to me. And I would be really surprised if a year from now or two years from now I was doing something that was wildly different from that. But then each of the layers of practices on top of that to varying degrees I like or don't like. And I wouldn't be surprised if aspects of that were swapped out down the road. But that core, that idea of this is how we think about building software. I like that thing; that seems like a good thing. So I'm going to hold on to Agile for a little bit longer personally. STEPH: Same. I still see Agile in my future. On that note, shall we wrap up? CHRIS: Let's wrap up. STEPH: Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. CHRIS: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPH: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or a review in iTunes as it helps other people find the show. CHRIS: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed on Twitter. And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: And I'm @SViccari. CHRIS: Or you can email us at hosts@bikeshed.fm. STEPH: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Byeeeeeeee. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends. And welcome to The Path to Well-Being in law podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your co-host Chris Newbold, executive vice-president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. And again, you all know now that what we are really excited about in this podcast is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the well-being space.                 And we know that in the process that this army of well-being advocates is growing, and our goal is also to build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. And I'm really excited for today's podcast because so much of what the future of our profession ultimately starts with how we're training the next generation of law students. And so we're on the cusp here of starting a three-part kind of mini series and really focusing in on well-being and law schools.                 And we are super excited to be welcoming I think one of really the kind of showcased law schools in the country when we think about kind of focusing on well-being as part of the culture within the law school environment. We are excited to welcome Linda Sugin to the podcast. And Bree, would you introduce Linda for us? BREE BUCHANAN: Absolutely. And hello everybody. Professor Sugin, and we're just going to call you Linda really is you can see, and we have not met before, but looking at your just history, it's clear that you have so much passion for the well-being of the students and that your bio, you've been a part of the Fordham Law faculty since 1994 and moved into the associate dean for academic affairs in 2017. And it seems like that you just sort of took the school by storm in a way and putting in amazingly new, innovative programs to address what I imagine you were seeing, which was at least a lot of dis ease among the student population there.                 And so it's just really clear that you saw that problem and you got to work. Professor Sugin's scholarly interests focus on issues of distributive justice in taxation and the governance of nonprofit organizations. She was the 2021 recipient of the dean's medal of achievement, well-deserved, and the 2007 recipient of Fordham Law School's Teacher of the Year Award. So Linda, thank you so much for being here today.                 I'm not going to go through the details of your bio because we're going to kind of pull that out as we go through this podcast today. But I want to start off with the question that we always begin with. I think it's one of the most interesting pieces that we get from our guests, which is to hear about what brought you to what is now a movement, the well-being in law of movement. And we found that typically people have some passion or experience in their life that drives their work. So tell us what brought you to this work and welcome to our podcast. LINDA SUGIN: Thank you so much. And thank you for that kind introduction. And thank you, Bree and Chris for inviting me to this podcast today. So I have to admit that I actually came to this pretty late in my career, that I spent more than 20 years as a law professor without really being focused or aware of this at all. In my career as a professor, I've always loved my students and I've tried to nurture them as best as I can, but I never really questioned the basic way that law school is structured and the way that students traditionally learn in law school environments.                 But when I became the associate dean in 2017, the first thing I did was convene a student advisory board to hear what students wanted and needed most from the law school. And I was kind of surprised that what I heard was a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, a lot of shame, and a lot of anger. And I really saw how much pain so many students were feeling because of what was happening within the law school, with their classmates, with their teachers.                 And so it was really that experience that led me to committing myself to improving the student experience by trying to better understand the emotional reality of students. I realized that we could never succeed with our academic mission if we continue to ignore the emotional toll that law school was taking on so many students. And so that's what really brought me to it. BREE: Wow. I love those words. Just when you talked about the power of those emotions that you were hearing about the shame and anger just those are powerful things. And I also was really impressed when you were talking about the emotional reality of students, and I'll tell you to hear what I would think a stereotypical tax professor, my experience with tax professors to talk about the emotional reality of their students and focusing on that, that's just amazing so I can see why you're so good at what you do. CHRIS: Linda, it sounds like your student advisory group, I'm guessing that your impressions surprised you a bit from that early group discussion. LINDA: They did, they did because I had never really taken such a broad view of what was going on in the law school, that I had my own classes, that I had sort of total control over. But I really wasn't aware of a lot of the dynamic that was happening throughout the law school both in and out of the classroom. And I think that that's what's really important, is to understand that law school is a really immersive experience for students and the culture of law school is very challenging for many students coming in. CHRIS: Well, let's set the stage a little bit. Can you just give us some context for Fordham Law School, right? Location, size, focus, types of students, kind of what the existing culture was maybe before you kind of more kind of deliberately started to focus on it. We'd just kind of love to set the stage on kind of learning a little bit more about the law school itself. LINDA: Okay, great. Yeah. So Fordham Law School actually is a really great place and always has been a great place. It's a Jesuit school, and we have a tradition of public service that really stems from that. And Fordham has historically welcomed students from groups that are traditionally underrepresented in the legal profession. So the first black woman to practice law in New York state was a 1924 graduate of Fordham Law School. And so we go way back in our institutional commitment to inclusion, community and holistic learning.                 But at the same time, we are one of the largest law schools in the country within the top 10 and we have over 400 students who come in every year. The good part of that is it makes a very vibrant academic life. There's tons going on all the time. But it also presents a challenge for creating connection. It's very easy for students to feel invisible in that crowd and so it's really important to find smaller communities within the law school where people really find what they're passionate about and where they can really excel.                 We are also smack in the middle of New York city. Our students come from all over the country and all over the world actually, but most of them want to stay and work in New York when they graduate. We are right next door to Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, down the block from the Time Warner Center, which is all fantastic, but we don't have much housing for students on campus. And so many of our students commute from a long distance because our neighborhood is very expensive.                 And actually over the 25 years that I've been at Fordham Law School, the neighborhood has become increasingly expensive. And that physical distance and being in the middle of the city with all of the excitement and stimulation of the city makes community building even more challenging. And so there are many wonderful things about Fordham Law School, but also challenges connected to the kind of issues that we're focusing on today. BREE: So Linda, tell me, I was looking at your bio and the work that you've done there at Fordham, and it looks like a real area of focus that you've been developing is around the professionalism for students. And I want to ask you what were you seeing among the students? I know that you had the focus group, but what are some of the areas that you're trying to address when you're focusing on students' professionalism and what does that mean? We've got that word there and it's easy to assign a meeting, but what do you mean when you talk about professionalism for your students? LINDA: Yes. Thank you for asking that question because I do think that people have different ideas of what professionalism is. I see professionalism as really a very broad category of all the different kinds of capabilities that individuals need to succeed in the legal profession. So mental health and wellness is certainly one important part of it, but I focused on other aspects under that umbrella as well. And I think they're all connected to each other.                 One of the things that I was seeing when I started thinking about doing this kind of work was that depending on where students worked before coming to law school or other experiences that they had in their backgrounds, some students didn't know the expectations that other people might have for lawyers, people like judges, for example. And so we developed some programming around that, what the expectation is going to be, and I call that the integrity programming, right?                 Nothing is more important for lawyers than integrity. But I felt like some students had a more developed understanding and some students just needed more education in what that meant as lawyers. And then in addition, there are lots of professional skills that are not really part of what we think of as the traditional professional skills curriculum that we have in law schools. So every law school has a curriculum that includes interviewing, counseling, negotiation.                 But the skills that I really have focused on are little mushier, skills like effective listening, empathy, self-awareness, giving and getting feedback, growth mindset, understanding cognitive biases. I'm really committed to lawyering as a service profession, a helping profession and that drives a lot of this for me. We need to orient ourselves so that we can really be a helping profession. I sometimes think about former students that I've had and one who comes to mind is I once had a truly brilliant student who would critique his classmates' arguments in the most devastating way. And I tried to teach him how to have a more productive disagreement.                 So I think that it's really important that lawyers recognize the humanity in every person and learn how to advocate, defend and disagree with respect and compassion. And I feel like that's a huge piece of professional education as well. In our polarized times, this is really hard for people to do. BREE: Right. LINDA: But I think that it's a really important part of the project because it's essential, I think for what lawyers really care about, which is justice. CHRIS: That's awesome because, I mean, it feels like we hear a lot about emotional intelligence, right? And it feels like in some respects, you're focusing, again, some of your efforts intentionally on the emotional readiness of lawyers as they enter the profession, which again, I'm not certain a lot of peer institutions in the law schools, they may talk about it, but it seems like you're going at it with some notion of intentionality. LINDA: Yeah. And so we don't think that our students will know everything about the law when they get out, but the idea is that we give them the tools so they can learn what they need to learn when they get out into the real world. And I feel like these are crucial tools to enable them to navigate all the spaces that they're going to be in after they graduate. CHRIS: What a worthy investment. And then it feels like there's a couple of other foundational building blocks in your program, namely the peer mentorship program and the house program. Can you describe those programs and how they work and what they're designed to do for students? LINDA: Yeah. So those are our two biggest initiatives that come under this professionalism umbrella and the key design feature of both of these programs is institutional infrastructure. The students being served are at the center, but there is a whole web of support that we've built around them. And that support includes faculty, it includes administrators, it also includes other students. A really big and important part of our professionals in programming is leadership development.                 And we have been thoughtful about where we use leadership and where we use professionalism because they're related but I don't think that they're entirely the same. So it's key in these programs that we support the students who participate in these programs as the leadership. So the house system we developed primarily for the first year students and it's organized by sections. So law school is still the same as it was when I went where all first year students, or at least at Fordham it is, all first-year students have all their classes with the same cohort, and so we call that cohort a house.                 But what we did within that structure is three things. So the first thing is that we used the house to connect students with faculty and administrators. So there's a faculty house leader who runs programs and the students can turn to with problems and questions. Usually that's a person who's not one of their teachers and the idea is that this is sort of a neutral faculty member who understands the institution, understands where these students are going and what their needs might be.                 In addition, there are librarians, student affairs counselors, career planning counselors, and other people assigned to each house so that students know people in all the administrative offices that they're going to need to work with. And we think that this really eases the entree to looking for a job, getting academic support when you need it. In addition, there are alumni mentors, mostly recent graduates for each house.                 So the house is really designed to create connections for students with people in all these different ways who will be essential to their development as lawyers. The second thing the house does is it's the place where we do a lot of programming around professionalism. So programs on choosing career paths and thinking about co-curricular activities, mental health, equity and inclusion. We have specific programs on a lot of different things.                 Some of them are more formal, some of them are more casual, but the idea is that the students get together for house meeting every week. There is a real curriculum and so it deserves to be treated as part of the academic program. And that has been great in many ways because there were so many random programs that students had to or should take part in and this was a way to organize it and to really rationalize the curriculum as a whole.                 And the third thing is that house is social. It gives students an opportunity to interact with each other in a context other than class. So this was a little hard in the pandemic, but we did the best we could, we hope it'll grow more when we're back in person. But the idea being that there are house parties, there are inter-house competitions, pro bono projects that the houses do, really giving students a way to interact with each other that's outside of the strict confines of their classes in which students seem so one-dimensional to each other.                 And so we think that the community of students that we create the first year is really key to the continued success of students throughout their law school career. The peer mentorship program is really my passion project. It grew directly out of the student advisory board that I mentioned and it's designed for second year students.                 And what I learned in talking to students was that we kind of had been ignoring students starting their second year, but that that's a point of tremendous vulnerability for a lot of students, that the first year we decide everything for them, they don't get to choose any of their classes, it's the rigid schedule and then they have their first summer, some students will be disappointed with their first year grades, some will have had failed job searches, most students will not have made law view.                 And so the beginning of the second year, it turns out, is a really tough time for a lot of students. And after taking care of all decisions for them in the first year, at the beginning of the second year we're like, "Okay, go. Now, do what you want." And so that is an easy moment for students to feel overwhelmed, to feel isolated. But really the law school never recognized how precarious students can be at the start of their second year.                 And so what we did in the peer mentorship program is that we created a system where there would be third year mentors for second year mentees. And the key aspect of the program is that all mentors must take a class that focuses on mentoring skills. There are three of us who teach the program. So the director of professionalism who we hired in 2019 teaches with me as does an additional adjunct who is a 2018 graduate of the law school.                 But the idea is that the teachers support the mentors who support the mentees. And of course, the skills that we teach in the class are skills that are not only useful for being a good mentor, they are useful for being effective lawyers and good professionals after graduation as well. So the program is voluntary for both the second and the third years, but it has grown exponentially since it started in 2018. And I hope that eventually all students will choose to participate because I think it can be a really enriching experience no matter what the students' experiences are. BREE: Wonderful. Linda, when I was thinking about a common theme for both of those programs, and it looks like a lot of your work is to help create connection, which is so vital to a sense of well-being and to break through the sense of isolation. There's a research that came out in the last year or so that showed that lawyers are the loneliest of all professionals. And I think a lot of that can start in law school with the inherent sense of being in competition with everyone that you're there with. I wanted to ask you also going back to the very beginning of the law school experience, and you've done a lot around the orientation process. Could you talk to us about what changes you ushered in for the August orientation for everyone and what issues you were trying to address? LINDA: Yeah, sure. So I'm a tax professor and some years ago I spearheaded a project to teach students some basic quantitative skills that lawyers need. Of course, people come to law school because they never want to do anything quantitative again. But of course, when you become a lawyer, you realize that you actually need to have some quantitative skills. So we put it in orientation because we saw that as part of a toolbox really for students beginning their law school journey.                 You have to learn how to brief a case and you have to have some other basic tools also. So when I became associate dean, it occurred to me that we should do the same thing for professional tools, that we should make sure that students have what they need so that they can better succeed in law school and as lawyers. And so we added a module to orientation that focuses on personal values and developing a professional identity. From day one, we want students to think about how they can be lawyers while also being their authentic best selves.                 In their first days of law school, we talk about implicit bias and anti-racism, growth mindset, vulnerability and empathy, and character strengths. The idea being you came here for a reason and we want you to remember what that reason was and be the kind of lawyer that you want to be. And so we sort of start that message in orientation, all the things you do in orientation, you have to keep doing it again. And of course, it's worth revisiting so many of the things that we do in orientation later on. But our ongoing development of the professionalism curriculum is about building competencies throughout these areas.                 In addition, one of the big things that we did with orientation is that we added an orientation in the middle of the first year in January. So before the students come back for their second semester, they spend a day, this coming year we'll make it a two day program but the idea was that there were some things that we couldn't do in August because the students hadn't yet built the trust that they would need to have certain kinds of conversations. So we wanted to do a deeper dive into anti-racism and engage students in more sensitive conversations.                 And it seemed that students would be better prepared to do that after a semester and it would really be too early to do that in August. And so we made that a full day program in January all about equity and inclusion. And last year, we were able to hire a director of diversity who has been fantastic designing and leading this program. Next year, we're planning to build out the January orientation into a two day program so that students can also reflect on their strengths, values and commitments as they start on their second semester and really dig deep into growth mindset, which is so important to their continued success in law school. BREE: Wow. That's profound. I really am particularly impressed listing to adding in that January orientation and being really thoughtful about where do we place basically this curriculum for our students. And that is just fabulous. Linda, we're going to take a break to hear from our sponsor right now and then when we get back, we're going to get to hear more about what you're working on. So thank you, and we'll be right back. Welcome back everybody. And we have with us today, Professor Linda Sugin, the associate dean for academic affairs at Fordham Law School.                 And Linda, we were just talking about the orientation programs and all of these ideas of really around helping students feel connected and breaking through some of the isolation. Could you just talk generally about these programs we just discussed? How do you see them helping the students maintain, I guess, their mental health and the best place to be able to learn as students and benefit from their law school experience? LINDA: Yes. Thank you. So what we have seen in looking at the success of our students after they graduate is that connection in law school is the most important indicator of success. And so we were very, very purposeful in trying to figure out ways that could find their home, their connections within the law school. And a lot of students do it organically. The students who are on a competition team or on a journal, they often find their smaller cohort that really supports them but there are always some students who fall through those cracks.                 And so those are the students that we are trying to help find connection. And so let me focus a little bit more on the peer mentorship program because that's one of the biggest initiatives that we have. I mentioned it before, but I'll tell you a little bit more about how it's organized. So we have it so that all students are part of a group with more than one mentor. Last year, we had a lot of mentees so most groups had two or three mentors and five or six mentees. And so that gives you a little community within the law school that you can work out any way that it works for you.                 And some of the groups really click as a whole, and that's like a little team there of seven or eight students. Some of the groups end up pairing off in various ways and individuals find connections between mentors and mentees on different issues or for different reasons. And it's all good, we feel like it really works out. I'm going to stick my neck out here a little bit and say I think all students feel isolation, self-doubt and fear, even the strongest students feel those things.                 And it really breaks my heart that so many of them think that they're the only ones having these feelings because that's what they think. And if they could just be a little bit more vulnerable with each other, they would find so much shared experience and mutual reassurance. So having a person or a group to share your insecurities with is really important. The peer mentors are only one year ahead of the mentees.                 So they have just a little bit of knowledge that the mentees don't have, but they are really in the same place as the mentees in so many ways. So lots of the mentors are still looking for jobs, they're questioning whether they want to be lawyers, they're still struggling to finish their homework on time, right? So they're feeling a lot of the same feelings and they can really understand what the second year mentees are going through.                 There's just enough distance there and enough closeness that they can really provide crucial support that I think nobody else can. The faculty can't do that, their families who don't understand what's happening in law school can't really do that. And so that was really why the program was designed. But my greatest surprise pleasure of the peer mentorship program has been seeing the mentors grow. So because they take this class with me, I watch them and I can see how they grow in confidence and well-being over the course of the semester.                 The course that the peer mentors take focuses on skills like teamwork, cross-cultural communication, cultivating growth mindset, right? All the topics that we cover are important to professional success. And the mentors keep journals every week that I read. And what I see is that so many of them get so much gratification from the mentoring work. Helping others, as we know from lots of research, is good for our own mental health. And so the program has been really helpful for both the mentees and the mentors. I guess I just want to mention the one other big leadership program that we have, we call it the professionalism fellows program and it's connected to the house system.                 We just finished the first year of the program and it was a great success in ways that I hadn't really anticipated. Because at the beginning, the fellows started out somewhat timidly, but by the end, the most striking thing I noticed was that the fellows have really developed into partners with the administration in problem solving and program development. And so there was tremendous growth in both the peer mentors and in the professionalism fellows over the time of working with them. And so I think that this is really key to maintaining their mental health as well as setting them up to be successful lawyers. CHRIS: Linda, as I mentioned at the top, this podcast kicks off a three-part mini series on the connection between well-being and law schools. I'm hoping that we can pivot a little bit right now and kind of talk a little bit about again, best practices and what are... I think we really would enjoy packaging this up and making sure that we can get this into the hands as to as many law school leaders as possible.                 So to that end, what suggestions do you have for others who may be interested in developing similar programs? Again, it seems like you've been very progressive, thoughtful and intentional about what you're trying to do with your student body. So what worked, what would you do differently, what advice would you offer others listening in? LINDA: Okay. Yeah, great. So I guess that there were two things that I would advise other schools. So the first one is student leadership. I'm really a huge fan of student leadership. I really believe in the peer mentorship model for all the reasons I was just describing. But you need to be prepared to provide a lot of institutional support. You can't expect student leaders to feel confident without backing them up with training and encouragement.                 I agreed to take on this work in the first place on the condition that we hire someone who would report directly to me and work on these issues full time. And I had the great fortune to be blessed with the most talented and committed person for the job and Jordana Confino has been an amazing partner to me in this work since 2019. So get students involved, give them... empower them to really do important things, but make sure that you're backing them up, supporting them and helping them at every step of the way.                 And then I guess the second thing, and this sort of goes to, we've made a lot of mistakes too as well as our successes, I just don't like to talk about them as much, but I would suggest that people turn to experts if they can. We were lucky at Fordham to get some philanthropic gifts to support our diversity equity and inclusion programming. And it allowed us to hire people with experience and training doing the kind of work that we wanted to do. So I feel like once we did that, it really, really helped a lot of the programming that we have been trying to do without that support which was not going as well and was really challenging.                 So now after three years, I guess I can say I have a lot of expertise in creating a peer mentorship program, but at the beginning it would have been really helpful to have worked with a consultant and I may have made fewer mistakes if I had been able to turn to more expert support. Of course, that takes money. And I hope that one of the things like this podcast will do is really convince the community that it's worth it to invest in these kinds of programs, that they're really meaningful for the students who benefit for them and they can really be transformational for the student experience.                 And that I hope that we can really make them a fundamental part of what law school is. rather than something that's just icing on the cake that we do if we can get some outside support for it. So that's kind of my next challenge, is to try to really bring these kinds of programs into the core of what legal education is. BREE: And I've spent some time as a clinical professor at a law school and my experience in sort of looking around there, that who holds the most power in the law school and who in some ways are the gatekeepers are trying to put on a new program such as this, and that's my experience was the tenured faculty, that block of individuals and the law school administration, particularly the office of the dean. How did you get those two groups on board with these initiatives? LINDA: Well, I was really lucky that the dean was basically on board all along. We had done a strategic plan shortly before I became associate dean and the strategic plan had some sort of general intention to improve the student experience. And so I felt like that gave me the go ahead to sort of figure out what the content of that would be. And so I've had tremendous support from the dean from the beginning, and he's really done a lot of fundraising around this work, which has been tremendous.                 The faculty is always more varied and you get a lot of different views on the faculty. I would say that there were a core group of faculty members who were very enthusiastic, particularly about the house system and they have worked incredibly hard from the beginning to collaborate with the administration to turn the house system idea into reality. And I think that some of it is that other faculty who maybe were a little bit more skeptical were kind of waiting and looking and seeing, but I think that now that the house system is up and running, people see how good it is for the students.                 Now, there are some new people who are getting involved, which is also really gratifying. But I do think that it's important not to pressure people into doing anything they don't want to do. I think that as these things prove themselves to be useful and meaningful, things will be easier going forward. I think that law schools are pretty slow moving institutions in general and making big changes take time. And I don't feel like I need to be in a huge rush because I see that this is a long-term goal that will have really long-term benefits that are worth waiting for. CHRIS: Linda, are you seeing anything on your commitment to well-being in terms of playing out in terms of your strategies on recruiting new students into Fordham? Because it certainly feels like again, there's a more societal recognition of how important this is and I'm wondering whether you're playing that into recruitment strategies in what we know is a very competitive landscape and it comes to recruiting law students into the institution. LINDA: Absolutely. So in our admitted student days, we always talk about our professionalism initiatives. The professionalism office gets a lot of inquiries from admitted students. So there's no question that students are looking for these kinds of programs. I think that students are looking for law schools that understand that students have needs and are prepared to address those needs. And so I think that our students are pretty picky consumers when it comes to what the culture of the law school is and what the approach of the administration is. And I hope that we show ourselves to be the kind of welcoming, caring community that we are because we really are. CHRIS: Yeah, that's great. Well, let's spend the last couple of minutes that we have. I mean, obviously Fordham sits at the epicenter of the COVID-19 outbreak, right? And the pandemic. I'd just be curious, Linda, of what impact the pandemic had on your student body, what some of your concerns were and how you're working in the constraints set by the pandemic to continue to support student well-being in what's otherwise been a very uncertain time. LINDA: Yeah. So it has been a brutal 15 months, I admit that. And the losses that people have suffered are real and varied in our community. And I think that right now we need to focus on recovery. Things are much, much better here in New York now and it seems like things are coming back to life and we are hoping that in the fall we will be back to what we traditionally know as law school.                 The pandemic was really extra hard for the kinds of things that we've been focused on in the professionalism program, so really hard for community building. But I think that our programs were crucial in getting everybody through the pandemic. If you rely only on organic community building, people making friends in their classes, people might not be able to do it in a pandemic. But I think a lot of our students really needed to connect with each other and with their teachers.                 And so I worked with a lot of the faculty throughout the pandemic to help support them in creating welcoming and warm learning communities within their classes. So we had student faculty conversations on all sorts of current issues. We encouraged faculty to make space for more casual student interactions. So faculty did things like they held happy hours and game nights and cooked dinner together virtually with their students and I think all of these things really did make a difference.                 We saw in the peer mentorship program that the mentoring groups that would meet weekly really treated it as a gem of a moment that they could get together and have some social interaction with other students when they really had so few opportunities to do that kind of thing. So I'm not going to say that it was good, it was really, really hard for everybody. And it was hard financially and there were a lot of people who got sick and who had a lot of illness in their family so it was definitely challenging.                 But I do always try to look for the silver lining. And so when we're back in the fall, the plan is that we will continue to use some of the remote tools that we learned how to use that I think that some of them can really enrich the support structure of the law school. We have to strike a balance between flexibility, convenience, and immersion and I think we'll be calibrating that when we get back. But for our fall academic program, I scheduled some online classes in the curriculum even though mostly we're going to be back in person. So I hope that what we'll take from this year of disruption will be some tools that we can use to make a richer learning environment that includes everything. BREE: Linda, this has been fascinating and inspiring too, and we're coming to the end of our time together. But just finally, if one of our listeners was interested in learning more about these innovative programs at Fordham, could you give them some advice on how to learn more? LINDA: Yeah. So we have a page on the Fordham Law School website for the office of professionalism that has lots of information on the programs that we're doing. Even better, I love to talk about what we're doing and so does our director of professionalism. So people should feel free to reach out to me and to her Jordana Confino. Our contact information is on the office of professionalism page. We are really hoping to help other schools replicate particularly our peer mentorship program because we believe it can be really transformational. And so next year when we sort of take this to the next level, that's one of the things that I'm going to be focusing on, is how is it that we help other schools to incorporate some of these things that I think have made a really big difference for us. CHRIS: Well, yeah. What important work that you're doing. I mean, I just love the fact that you've invested so much time and energy into the emotional readiness of the law school experience and I think that that's going to obviously pay dividends for the culture that you're building within the law school itself. But if I'm an employer and I'm thinking about what type of students I ultimately want to hire into my firm, knowing that I have a student who's kind of emotionally ready for the practice of law seems to be a really wise investment from a hiring decision. So any final closing thoughts on that Linda or anything else that you want to raise to our listeners? LINDA: Just that I hope in addition to helping them work more effectively, I hope that all of this will really make our students happier lawyers. And so it's really important that the work that lawyers do to our society, and I think it's really important that we care for lawyers so that they can do that work and have gratifying and happy lives. CHRIS: All right. Professor Linda Sugin, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And again, for our listeners, our next two podcasts will also be focused on law schools' culture and some of the advancements going on. But again, what a great way to kick off this mini series to talk about the Fordham experience. And thank you listeners for joining and we'll be back in a couple of weeks. Thanks. LINDA: Thanks you so much for having me. CHRIS: Thanks, Linda.

Chris gives the deets on that new new – (he joined a startup!) and laments about the back button being so complicated. Steph talks about extracting an untrustworthy service and likens the scenario to making a Pixar movie. You don't wanna miss this hero's journey! Eric Bailey's bunny updates (https://twitter.com/ericwbailey/status/1389332217088851971) Katrina Owen's Therapeutic Refactoring Talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4dlF0kcThQ) EnjoyHQ (https://getenjoyhq.com/) User research platform Aurelius (https://www.aureliuslab.com/) also a user research platform Dry Monad (https://dry-rb.org/gems/dry-monads/1.3/) (part of dry-rb (https://dry-rb.org/)) Previous Bike Shed discussing dry-monads (https://www.bikeshed.fm/243) Railway Oriented Programming (https://fsharpforfunandprofit.com/rop/) Bike Shed "Seeking Calm" Episode (https://www.bikeshed.fm/279) Previous Episode Discussing Multi-Step Forms (https://www.bikeshed.fm/295) Discussion thread on Inertia repo re: back button cache (https://github.com/inertiajs/inertia/issues/247) Transcript: STEPH: Yes, I was getting text messages from you where you were like, “Go on without me.” CHRIS: [laughs] Leave me behind! STEPH: [laughs] No developer left behind!! CHRIS: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Bike Shed, a weekly podcast from your friends at thoughtbot about developing great software. I'm Chris Toomey. STEPH: And I'm Steph Viccari. CHRIS: And together, we're here to share a bit of what we've learned along the way. So, Steph, how's your week going? STEPH: Hey, Chris. It's been a very busy week. There's been a lot going on. But the most delightful part of my week has been that Eric Bailey, another thoughtboter and also a former guest on this show, has a tiny, little baby bunny living in his backyard, and so he has been sharing updates about this little baby bunny. In fact, he's been sharing some pictures on Twitter as well. So I'll include a link in the show notes so other people can experience the joy. Also, the name of the bunny gets me every time. But they have named the bunny “Corndog.” CHRIS: Checks out. It seems like a very obvious name for a small bunny. STEPH: It gets me because that's such a big name. I don't know why it's a big name, but it feels like a big name for a little bunny. CHRIS: I can say yeah, it's a cornball. Yeah, that's a large name. And so a tiny bunny is a...it's like Little John from Robin Hood. It's perfect. STEPH: [chuckles] I kept referring to him as Corn Nugget, I guess, because of size. But yes, it's not corn nugget; it's Corndog. [chuckles] So watching Eric's little bunny has been delightful and a wonderful addition to the week. How about you? How has your week been? CHRIS: My week has been great. I was off on vacation last week (so you had a guest on), which was fun to just take a week off and reset the system. But actually, this week has been interesting. It was my first full-time week with a new startup that I have joined. I think, yeah, that seems to be the truth in the world. So a bit of a shift from what I've been doing for the last year and a half, almost something like that. The reason there's hesitance in my voice is because I've actually been working with this organization for six months-ish, depending on how you count it. I've been having conversations, and then it's slowly grown over time where it was just conversations, and then it was an afternoon a week, and then one day a week, and then two, and three. And finally, we decided we think we've got an idea. We've got a thing that we want to build. And so I am the developer on this team, but we are an early-stage startup trying to build something. I'm now full-time on the project. I rotated down the other projects that I was working on from a freelance consulting perspective, and now I'm trying something new. So it's a very different vibe. Even though I'd been working with the organization for a long time, this week just felt so much more real. And there was so much more space, so much more room for activities, having a full week to actually work on things. So yeah, it's very exciting, it's very new, it's very early stage, so all of those things are true. But there are a lot of great aspects to that, and I'm super excited about it. STEPH: That is some big news. That's a big change too. Well, I guess with consulting, there are the stresses that go into consulting and then changing projects and managing the projects that you're taking on. But then to joining a team and such an early startup team too...anytime, someone says startup life, I'm always like, well, tell me more. How calm is the startup life, or how uncalm is this startup life? CHRIS: It's somewhere between calm and uncalm, I would say, but in a, I would say purposeful and intentional way. I was looking for...this has largely been true over the entire time that I was freelancing, but freelancing was a way for me to keep the lights on, and stay engaged with tech, and continue working, and frankly, have more conversations and meet more organizations. But I was looking for something that I could engage with a bit more. I was looking for, largely, something like this. So it definitely is occupying a different space in my head than, say, any individual consulting client where with consulting, I was pretty rigid, you know, these are the hours that I'm working. When I'm off the clock, I'm really not thinking about it too much. I'm responsive if I see an incident or something like that or if the database falls over; I'm going to look at that on the weekend but otherwise, largely not doing anything. Whereas with this project, I'm somewhat purposefully allowing it to have a little bit more space in my head off-hours, that sort of thing. And I'm more invested in the work. It's not just a thing that I'm doing, but it's a project that I believe in. It's something that I want to exist in the world. And so, I'm engaged with it in a different way in that manner. I'm also engineer number one, so I'm choosing all of the technologies and setting the standards. Thankfully, there's a lot of good thoughtbot material out there that I can link to, which is great. But yeah, so it's mostly within the context of what I think startups can be. The expectations and the way that the team is working is very reasonable. And I think it's more for my own self. I'm allowing it to occupy a little bit more of my space, but in a fun way so far. STEPH: Well, along that line, in terms of choosing the tech stack and starting greenfield, I am curious to hear more about the type of project that you're going to be working on. But I'm also recognizing y'all may be in stealth mode. Is that where you're at, or can you talk a bit more about the type of work you'll be doing? CHRIS: We're stealth-ish right now, I would say, partly because we're likely in the process of rebranding, and renaming, and things like that. So partly it's just like, oh, I probably shouldn't say that. But at some point, this will become public, and so at that point, I can probably be a little bit more open about it. But at the end of the day, we're building a financial product, FinTech sort of thing. And the tech stack is relatively straightforward. I'm actually using my preferred tech stack is...I got to choose, so it's Rails, Inertia, and Svelte with some TypeScript because why not? And I love it, and it's fantastic. I continue to believe deeply in that tech stack. So, yeah, that's most of what I think is good to say now. But I think over the coming weeks, I'll be able to say more and share more. And I certainly will be able to talk about the details of building and growing a team and things like that. STEPH: Awesome. Yeah, you answered my other question too. I was going to ask what tech stack you chose. CHRIS: I chose the tech stack, the one with the acronym, which I don't even know...the STIR stack I think we went with or something. STEPH: I was about to say I don't remember the acronym. [laughs] CHRIS: I think I never committed to an acronym previously, and then that was the one that got thrown around on the internet. I think I just was like, in the next episode of The Bike Shed, I'll choose an acronym so STIR, why not? STEPH: I like it, causing a stir. CHRIS: But yeah, so it's a pretty sizable shift in my life. But frankly, I don't even know exactly the shape that the coming weeks will have. So it will be interesting to report back as things evolve and as new concerns and considerations come up. But, yeah, we'll save that for future weeks. For now, what else is up in your world? STEPH: Yeah, it's been an interesting week. There have been really two things on my mind, so one of them has been focused on writing a task that's going to process a sizable CSV. And then it's going to essentially enqueue a bunch of jobs and send off a bunch of data to other third-party systems. So that's been a big focus of the week. The other topic is what I'm going to call extracting an untrustworthy service into its own service. And I know that's a bit vague, but I've got both of those topics. So which one would you want to hear about first? CHRIS: I definitely want to hear about both. But because you veiled it in mystery and said, “An untrustworthy,” that one's just going to call to me a little bit more. So yeah, what about this extracting and untrustworthy service? What more can you say there? STEPH: Good question. I'm glad that you picked the mysterious one and started there. That feels right. So this is a part of our codebase, and it's very related to also the task that I'm writing. So to provide a bit of context, this particular portion of the codebase manages a big part of where we are sending data from our application over to third-party systems. And it's a very important feature of our application. And it's also probably one of the gnarliest sections of our application in terms of there are tons of conditionals based on which type of service we're sending to or the discreet customer that we're sending it to, and any particular preferences that they need and how we're sending that data. And then there's also just a lot of room for ambiguity and errors. And when we are sending that data, was it actually successful? And what if it was successful, but we still got back error messages? What does that mean? Is that successful with warning? And so there are just a lot of unknowns. It's also one of the less tested areas of the codebase. So even though it's important, we really don't feel confident making changes at this point until we've added some more test coverage. And testing it can be a beast because right now, we really just want to add some security around that section of the codebase. So we're often going for high-level tests, which are then our slower tests, but then also means it's hard to test the more granular aspects of that code. This is that untrustworthy section of the code in terms that we're a bit skittish to make changes, but yet it's a very active part of the codebase, so not the best place to be. But we also recognize that this part of the codebase would be really well-fitted to live outside of the application. It really doesn't need to live with the rest of the application. And there are other services that need to be able to talk to the service as well. So instead of having it grouped together, which -- It's funny. I see your eyebrows go up when I talk about -- For people who can't see, Chris raised his eyebrows when I talked about extracting this to another service. [chuckles] CHRIS: That doesn't sound like me at all. I don't ever… STEPH: [chuckles] And since we do have other services that need to be able to pull data or to talk to this particular portion of the codebase, we are looking to then move it out into its own application, so that way, it can stand alone. It can focus on this one task, and then other services can benefit from it as well. And there's been an interesting discussion around, well, we need to make changes to this codebase. And we also have some recognition that we need to make improvements. Do we go ahead and go heads down for a bit and improve the section of the codebase, add more test coverage, get to understand more of what this code does, where the risks are? Or do we go ahead and extract it in its current form to the new greenfield space and just essentially port it, and then we work on it from that space? And so, there's been a conversation around which one do we do first? And I'll tell you my thoughts, and then I'd love to hear yours. As one of the primary individuals that's been working in this codebase, my stance has been let's leave it in place for now because I want to build some confidence around what this does. So I really want to have some confident understanding about the requirements, about when we extract this, what is that going to look like? But also, I feel like I'm in a place where I'm starting to understand the beast enough that I want to continue that progress and add some testing around it before then we just move it to this new location. And I can't decide if that's one of those decisions where like, I just feel too close to it, and extracting it feels risky to me. So I feel like we're adding on this extra level of complexity. Like, this is already code that's hard to understand. And then we're going to add this network connection on top of that where then we have to talk to it in a different way. And in my mind, that's adding another level of risk and another level of having to debug this service. So my current approach is let's leave it in place. Let's try to identify some low-hanging fruit. Let's go ahead and add some more tests. And I feel pretty good about that decision. I'm curious, what are your thoughts? CHRIS: I have a bunch of them. The first is that the story that you're telling here feels like the hero's journey of software development. Like, all right, we got this gnarly bit of the code. It's super important. It's super complicated. It doesn't really have any test coverage for historical reasons that are complicated, but here we are. What do we do? That story feels so true. It feels like there are nine Pixar movies about it if Pixar made movies about writing code, and they would be great movies. STEPH: That's amazing. [laughs] I would watch those movies. CHRIS: I think of it like Katrina Owen's therapeutic refactoring, which I feel like is probably my most referenced...It's one of my two most referenced talks that I bring up on the show all the time, but it is almost exactly about that sort of thing. We've got this gnarly piece of code. It's super important, but nobody really knows how it works. But we know it does work, which is an interesting bit. And so to the question of would you extract as is or would you try and shore it up before you extract it? I am 100% on the side that you are on, which is let's shore this thing up before we move it over. Because moving it over, like you said, that's going to add the additional complexity and failure modes of network latency, network timeouts, async disconnects, whatever, any of those complexities. That's another set of failure modes that you'll be introducing or just complexity and things that you have to think about. So that feels complicated. Also, there's probably a poor analogy that I have in my head. But imagine that you're moving, and your bedroom is just a complete mess, and you're like, oh, there are some old to-go food containers over there. And I haven't done my laundry in a couple of weeks. I'm just going to throw it all on a blanket and take it to the new house, and I'll figure out what I want to keep on the other side. It's like, that doesn't feel like the right move. I would definitely throw some things out before I move to a new house. So I definitely lean in to let's clean this up and understand it so that when it's in the new place, we have a slightly more contained, understood, manageable version of the software to try and extract to a service. STEPH: I feel very judged for my moving style. CHRIS: [laughs] I mean, obviously, with software, you're doing the one thing. But did I just describe exactly how you move house? STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: To each their own now, you know, whatever works for you. STEPH: No, I'm with you. I'm definitely the person that's going to clean up first before I put stuff in boxes. I'm going to try to give away as much stuff as possible. CHRIS: It's a great time to just figure out what's true in your life or what's true in your software. I am intrigued. So yes, I did raise my eyebrows when you mentioned extracting a service and other services talking to each other. In particular, the way you described this piece of the system, I would be surprised if there weren't data requirements and/or transactional consistency things that you wanted to uphold. And that's one of the main things that causes me concern when we're extracting services is if this thing still needs to know about a bunch of different pieces of data and if it's going to make multiple updates to different records where if one succeeds and the other doesn't, we should roll back the whole thing. You lose all of that by moving to a service. And so that's where my broad…like, I'm always going to question if we're going to surface this. So I'm intrigued. Is this thing a very functional piece of your system where some data comes in, some stuff happens, and you get data out at the end of the day? Or is it more operating on related data within your system and potentially updating records after the fact? STEPH: Yeah, that's a great point. For this area of the codebase, it does feel more functional in terms that we have data, and we essentially want to notify other people that we have this data, and then we want to share it with them. So there is still that coupling of where we need access to those values. So if we're sending it over to the new system, either that new system needs to be able to read from the same database, or we have to send all of those details over to the new system. So then it can build up the message and then send it over to the other third-party systems. So it feels more functional, but there are still some of those requirements that we need to think about. CHRIS: Okay. That definitely clarifies things. And I wouldn't say that I have a unified theory of services. But what you're describing feels like the type of service that I'm more open to. It sounds almost like a SendGrid where I want to deal with all of my application data. And then I send a bunch of structured data over to SendGrid, and their job is to send an email and retry as necessary or send a text message or even do a voice call if it's Twilio or something like that. And so they're really good at those weird things and the failure modes that exist in those communication channels. But that's not logic that I need to live in my app. And so what you're describing there definitely makes sense as something that could comfortably be extracted to a service and not have more complexity be introduced by that. You did mention something about services talking to services and other things. So is the idea that this would be extracted, then other parts of the system would also use it to communicate out messages or something like that. STEPH: Yeah, one of the motivations for extracting this is because we have another application that also wants to perform similar behavior. So now we have two applications that need to do similar work, and they feel more in that line of functional work where it would be great if we could share this. But it doesn't fit in the space that we want to extract it in regards to extract it to a gem and make it shareable. It feels more appropriate for it to be its own service and then also capture. Because the other nice thing that we want to include that we're doing now as well is we want to capture feedback from whenever we are sending that data over to other systems. We want to know, hey, how did it go? Did you give us back that successfully, but maybe with some warnings or some errors? Maybe you accepted the data, but then you also gave us a response about something else. I think one really important question to consider is when is it trustworthy enough to extract? Because we know we're headed down this path. So at what point are we ready to then go ahead and extract this over to its own service? And that was the more interesting conversation because I think those who were in favor of extracting it now had the concern that we can't add test coverage in its current form. So my first response was if I need to make changes and I can't add test coverage, I will sound the alarm, and we will reconsider. But my goal right now is to turn this untrustworthy service into a little more trust. Just dial up the trust a little bit further, and then we can port this over. So then, as we do add some network complexities on top of this, we will at least have more faith and understanding the underlying behavior of the system. But then we still want to understand that it's not going to be perfect. And we're not going to wait until it's perfect before we do extract it. But that's the tale or the mysterious extracting an untrustworthy service. So I think it will be an interesting journey. And it was a very interesting conversation that I was excited to have your thoughts because I know you and I often lean so far away from extracting stuff to a service that it was an interesting conversation to have around; well, this code is a bit of a mess. When do we start to tackle that mess? CHRIS: I like that you didn't even frame it necessarily in terms of that, but I still definitely got there. I was like, wait, wait, wait, but let's actually talk about whether or not. But this is definitely the sort of thing that I think makes sense to consider as a service extraction. I think the question that you're asking around when do we feel good enough in its current state to do the extraction? That's right on the line of art in the software world as opposed to the science of this is how we connect HTTP. So I'm very interested to see where you get to both with that question and how you actually make that decision and then how the extraction goes. And I imagine this will be the sort of thing that goes on for a bit of time. So it feels like we could make a mini-story arc that'll span a couple of episodes, and you can follow the characters on their journey. This is the Pixar movie. We're making a Pixar movie. STEPH: We're making a Pixar movie. They're missing an entire genre for their Pixar movies. If they just appeal to developers, that'd be wonderful. I'm so in for that. We should write Pixar. CHRIS: There are more developers every day, so think Hackers meets Up. That's what we're going for. We're just going to fuse those two together. It's going to pull at your heartstrings, but it's also going to talk about hacking the Gibson. It's going to be great. STEPH: Oh man, you reached for the most heartfelt one going for Up. That one has the toughest beginning. [laughs] CHRIS: That's what I'm going for here. STEPH: For anyone that hasn't seen Up, you can go watch the beginning of it. Just be prepared. CHRIS: And if anyone hasn't seen Hackers, also be prepared. [laughs] STEPH: Which is me. I haven't seen Hackers. CHRIS: All right. You still haven't. All right, that's a thing we need to work on. STEPH: [chuckles] CHRIS: But cool. Okay. So we're going to work on the Pixar movie. You're going to update us because we need to actually gather the information. But yeah, we'll come back to that in future episodes. But shifting gears just a little bit, actually, I have a couple of things, two small things, and then one more sizable thing that is more just like, I'm confused. So yeah, we're going to go in that order. Thing number one is, we are, again, it's a very early-stage startup that I'm working with. And part of what we're doing that I really like is that we are talking to potential customers, potential end-users of the application doing lots of user interviews, which is a thing that I have more from a distance seen often. But now, because we're actually working as a distributed team, we're remote because that's the nature of the world right now. We'll probably meet each other in person at some point, but that's down the road. But all of these conversations are happening over Zoom calls, all of these user interviews. And so I made the suggestion that we use a tool to actually manage those. And so we're using a tool called EnjoyHQ, I think is the name of it. There's another similar tool called Aurelius. We can put the links in the show notes for both of those. But what it does is it basically makes the video available after the fact. I think it automatically transcribes it, and then it allows you to annotate and add notes and things like that, which is great for aggregating this body of information that we're collecting over time as we do all of these user interviews and start to tag common themes that we're seeing. And bringing them together will also allow us to revisit them. But for me as the developer, I've been to a few of them, but not as many as the rest of the team. And what's great is I've now taken to...as I'm doing more mundane…cleaning up email or whatever sort of tasks, I will just put on one of these videos in the background at 2X. And what's great is I can now just hear literally the voice of the users of the application. What are the words that they're choosing? How are they talking about it? What matters to them? What doesn't matter to them? What do they get really passionate about? And it's been just such a wonderful thing to have available. It's almost like a podcast of our app that we're building, and it's like, that's awesome. STEPH: I love that. Yeah, I would love to be able to hear from people that are using the application. And like you mentioned, just turn it on in the background so that way I can process what they're saying. But then, I don't know, depending on what they're saying, maybe it needs full attention or otherwise, maybe you're able to just absorb little bits and pieces while you're hacking away on something else. And now I've got the word hacking stuck in my mind. [laughs] CHRIS: It's the best word to describe what we do. Yeah, there's definitely a version of someone should be reviewing...someone's actually doing the interview, so they're going to be very close to it. And then there maybe is a secondary someone's watching it closely and trying to glean, and categorize, and all of that. And I could potentially be any one of those, but I really like this version of this is just a background soundtrack that I'm exposing myself to so that I'm all the more immersed in the problem space that we are working on. And it's one of the things that I fundamentally believe about software development is developers shouldn't be hidden in the corner just writing code. We should always care about what the end-user wants, and what better way to get there than to actually hear their voice and hear the words that they're using. So this is a magical little trick that I have now found that I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. STEPH: Funny enough, I had a similar experience this past week where I realized I was feeling very disconnected from the people that are using the application and also the people that are setting priorities for the work that our team is doing. And that is something that I'm very accustomed to with thoughtbot that we always want to be part of the team. We're not necessarily just we can churn through a backlog. But we also really want to be in touch with product decisions, and share opinions, and then also be in touch with users too. So I had some similar revelations this week where I realized I was feeling very disconnected where I was picking up tickets, and I was like, I don't really understand why this is great or how this is helpful. And so, I shared that with the team, and someone encouraged me to attend a specific meeting. And that was wonderful because then I got to hear from the people who were creating those tickets and then giving them a high priority because something was urgent and why it was urgent. And having that insight was huge to me. And I realized that it was incredibly motivational as well. Because then I'm like, yes, okay, I understand how this is going to impact someone. And I'm now very encouraged to get this done. CHRIS: I think that idea, that ethos of wanting to get into the user persona and understand that better is a very strong thoughtbot ideal. So it's unsurprising both of us share that. But yeah, that was a really great thing and particularly a tool that facilitated that in a really straightforward way, which I appreciated. Another thing that I used this week, which I've talked about at length in a previous episode, so we can link to that episode, but it's a project called dry-monad. So there's dry-rb is the collection of, I think, a set of gems, but dry-monad is one that allows for defining sequential tasks, so tasks that you have to do a bunch of steps in order and the outcome of a previous step will be the input of the next part of the process. So it can fail in a bunch of ways like, okay, fetch this thing from the network and then look up a user based on that. And then get the user's profile, which may or may not exist, and then assuming that all of that's gone well, actually persist to this new record, to the database. And they're really finicky to write that sort of sequential processing. And so I actually had written that thing manually. And part of it was I'd wrapped the whole thing in a database transaction, but I was trying to make it so that if something went wrong, I would manually roll back the transaction. And then I wanted to return an object to the caller that indicated that things had failed and an error message or something like that. And that was actually really hard to do because of the way transactions work. The mechanism that I was using was apparently deprecated in Rails. And so the whole thing was just kind of confusing, and it was a bit messy in the code. And I knew in the back of my mind that dry-monad exists. I've used it before. I've really enjoyed it. But I was trying to minimize the amount of new technologies that I'm bringing in this early on in the project. It's like, yeah, I'll bring that in when I need it. But finally, I was like, you know what? I think I've reached that point. I grabbed it, brought it in, and I haven't worked with it in a while, but I was very quickly able to refactor my class to use dry-monad. It cleaned it up immensely. The tests remained identical, which was really interesting. I didn't have to change anything on the test side. And one of my tests was failing before and then passed because of the introduction of dry-monad. And yeah, it was just like a win-win-win, and also the fact that I was able to revisit dry-monad as a library and just get running with it again was really interesting to me because it is a bit complicated and interesting in how it works. But again, I was able to just sort of pick it up and run with it. So that was wonderful. And I will now all the more staunchly suggest that folks reach for that when they have more complex, procedural type code that they need to write. STEPH: I remember you highlighting dry-monad before in previous episodes and talking about the pain of writing that sort of procedural code, but then we also want to return something helpful. And I looked at it briefly, but I haven't used it. But now that you are reminding me of it, I'm very interested in it because I agree that process is difficult to write, at least in Ruby it's difficult to write. I understand the hesitancy that you have around bringing something in that's new. But then if you recognize that it's going to be a theme in your application around this is something that we're going to do a fair amount, and we want to do it in a clean, efficient way, then it starts to feel more reasonable to say, “Okay, I'm bringing in something new, but it is representative of how we want to handle this step or this type of process in our application.” So it's not just bringing in a gem to handle one small area of the code, something that we could have written, but it is elevating our process and our system. CHRIS: Yup. Indeed. In this case, these are command objects within the system. That's actually the name that I got from the creator of the project. That was his suggestion on Twitter as to what to call these objects. And it's a pattern that I do want to encode and has become the standard within the application for any of these more complex processing tasks. So, again, we'll link to the previous episode. I talked about it in more depth and the ideas behind it. Railway Oriented Programming is a phrase that's used, which talks about how to sequence failures or successes and whatnot together. And there's some good material behind it, more general, but yeah, wonderful, little library. STEPH: What is Railway Oriented Programming? I'm not familiar with that term. CHRIS: That refers to the sequential processing that I was describing. So imagine that you have a bunch of different steps where first you fetch from the network to get this record, then using what you got back, you look up a user in your database, then you fetch that user's profile. Then you do something else. Each of those steps along the way could fail. And so the railway metaphor is the track is going forward, but if at any point you branch off the track because of a failure, then you're in the failure track, and that's a different thing. And so it's a very...the dry-monad or other similar Railway Oriented Programming or monads generally I think is the actual...it's the words in there. And I wish it wasn't in there because it's such a complicated word. But that idea is the fundamental, underlying thing that's going on there. And it is conceptually somewhat complicated, but if you don't try and think about the category theory behind it, and you're just like, well, I want to do a bunch of stuff, and it may fail at any point, and I want to return either a success message with everything having gone well or an error message at the point that it failed and stopped processing, then that's what this thing does, and it's fantastic at it. STEPH: Okay, cool. Thank you. CHRIS: You are welcome. And I think there's a bit more in the previous episode as well. So if that sounded interesting to anyone, I think I rambled more in a previous episode about it and probably better because I feel like I was more prepared that time than this time. STEPH: Well, along those lines of running a process and then being able to fail at any moment, I'm going to circle back to that other topic that I highlighted where most of my week has been focused on writing a task that is processing a CSV, something probably a number of us have done at some point in our career but processing a number of rows, and then sending and queuing jobs to then send data to a third party system. And it was really interesting less so because of the processing of the CSV and then enqueuing jobs. But it was more of the reporting that went behind it and the process that went into writing this task. So Joël and I were pairing on this task. Joël being another thoughtboter and also a former guest on this show. And we had an interesting process of where we started with one, let's do the simplest thing. Let's get it done. Let's also check through the CSV because you're often going to find stuff that doesn't align with what you expect it to when it's a CSV that's provided from an external source. One of the risks that we highlighted right away was how are we going to get the CSV on the server? Because we just have this one CSV that we need to run. We don't want to add it to the repo, and we can't generate it ourselves. So how are we actually going to get the CSV in a place that we can run this in a production mode? I learned that I could pass a CSV as standard input into the Rake task. So then I could actually run it locally because we're using AWS. So I could inform AWS to run this task, but then I could actually stream the CSV into the task that way. And that was really nice because then we no longer had the question of how are we going to get this file on the server? CHRIS: That's interesting. I didn't know...Yeah, the streaming of it from local to remote is an interesting one. On Heroku, I will typically open up a bash prompt, so Heroku run bash. And then, I will curl the file down onto the server and then run it locally. But that's an ephemeral dyno. It may die at any point. There are various things that could go wrong there. So that's always interesting. I imagine a similar thing could be done, but I don't know, actually, if you can directly stream into a Heroku dyno like that, which is an even more straightforward one because I end up having to bounce a file off of a random. Like, I'll often put it in a Gist or a Pastebin or something like that. And then I'll curl it down to the server, and yeah, this is interesting. STEPH: Yeah, I'm also not sure the specifics of how it would work with Heroku. But it was a really nice process for us to be able to use versus having to then read the file from, like you mentioned, curl it from somewhere else and then be able to parse it that way. Two other things that were top of mind for working on this task is one, item potency. You're going to rerun it, friends. At some point, your task is either going to bomb, and it's going to err. And then you're going to have to triage and run it again. Or whoever requested that you run this task and they said, “Oh, it's just temporary. We're just going to run the once,” that's not true. You're going to run it again. So keep in mind how to make that safe, that you can rerun it. And then that won't be its own scenario that then you have to triage and figure out. CHRIS: Item potency is one of those critical ideas, and I just wish the word were different. I feel ridiculous every time I say it. And I feel like I have to push my glasses up on my nose, and I'm like, well, have we considered item potency for this? But it's such a good idea. And it's the sort of thing that...you're totally right. Every time you're doing this sort of thing, it is something that you should consider. And we use GET requests, and they have rules about it. And it's such a good idea and such an important idea. And I just wish the word were different so that I felt more comfortable using it in polite conversation. STEPH: [laughs] I don't know why… and this may be sharing too much of myself. But the song Under Pressure by Queen and David Bowie the Under Pressure song has been in my head. But I've been replacing the under pressure part with item potent. So it's [singing] under pressure, and I've been [singing] item potent. [laughter] And that has just been my song for the week. CHRIS: You've normalized it enough for me now that I'll just hear you singing it every time, and I'll be like, this is a nonsense word. We're fine. We can just go – [laughs] STEPH: That's what I'm here for, to turn technical terms into nonsense. [laughs] CHRIS: It's really what this show is about at the end of the day. So you are our hero. STEPH: I just have to work on more lyrics for the song. I really just have that one line, that one hook. [laughs] CHRIS: Now I just want to scrap the rest of the episode and just come up with lyrics to item potent. [chuckles] But maybe we don't do that. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: Maybe that'll be after the credits B-roll, something like that. STEPH: The other way I do phrase that question is I'm like, what happens when it fails? And that always feels like a safe way. Because if I ask someone like, “Hey, is the item potent?” It feels more natural for people to be like, “Oh, it's fine. It doesn't need to be.” But if you say, “What happens when it fails?” It's harder for someone to say, “Oh, it's never going to fail. [laughs] There is nothing that could go wrong.” So it feels like a more intentional question in regards to how are we going to handle this when we need to rerun it? The other part that really came in handy was the fact that we spent more time on the reporting as well. So we really wanted to know what happened when we are processing all of these rows. So were there any invalid rows? And if we do encounter an invalid row, do we want to just stop processing and stop right there, or do we want to keep moving? Do we have any rows that didn't match, a row in our database, and how do we capture those? And because it's item potent, maybe we want to capture skipped rows so then that way when we rerun it, we can see okay, well, we skipped, you know, a thousand rows because we'd already run them before. And all of that reporting has been so handy because we're also using this to triage. Like, hey, we're sending a bunch of messages to this third-party system. We reach out to that third-party group, and we say, “Hey, we sent you all of this. This is how it went. Let us know how it went on your end.” And then, we can have a more collaborative discussion around what happened on their end versus what happened on our end, and then we can make tweaks to each system. So overall, it felt more of that run-of-the-mill task where you're going to write a Rake task, you're going to parse a CSV. But something about the reporting really resonated with me because in the past, when I've written Rake tasks, I've leaned more on the this is temporary, so it's okay if it's not great. But the reporting has been so crucial that from now on, I always want reporting from any Rake tasks that I run, and I want to know what happened. And then I also want to be able to rerun it. And I'm very wary of any time that someone says, “Oh, this is temporary,” because then I also think that leads to interesting discussions around testing. Because initially, when we started this, we were under some pressure. Hey, that goes back to my song. We were under some pressure for writing this particular task. And then the question came up: do we want to test it? And to be frank, testing a Rake task isn't great; it's not fun, which is one of the reasons we get out of a Rake task as quickly as possible and put it into a class. So that was also one of the drivers or one of the conversations that went against, like, oh, this is temporary. So it's okay if it's not the best code. It's okay if it's not tested. And then I was more of an advocate for, like, well, I don't feel good about this. And I'm rerunning the Rake task every time I want to confirm that the changes that I've made are correct. And so once I hit that manual labor point where I'm like, okay, I'm testing this. I just don't have automated tests for this, that then I actually started adding test coverage around it. CHRIS: I'm so excited that we have transcripts, particularly for that last minute that you were just talking about, because I feel like that was a mini master class in software development. And more generally, there's been almost like a poetic something to the two different topics that you've brought up today are the sort of mundane, very real things that actual software development is made almost entirely of. It's not often that we're just starting with a greenfield app and building a new thing. I happen to be doing that this week, but it's rare. It's going to be over very soon. And then I'm going to be in the world of oh; we have to backfill a bunch of data. How are we going to do that? Or we have this portion of the code that, frankly, we should have been testing more, but we didn't. How do we deal with that? And these murky, gray areas where there isn't a clear answer and you have to go with intuition, and you have to...a bunch of the things that you just listed as these good heuristics that you have around how you think about software. I'm just really excited for the transcript to that because that was awesome. STEPH: I'm so glad you enjoyed it because I think it's not until right now where I'm processing this and talking about it with you that it is...I was trying to think earlier, like, why is this so interesting? Why am I so excited to bring this here to this conversation? And I think it is for the reasons exactly that you said, that it does feel like one of these...this is a mundane task. We write a task; we process some things; we send some data. We do that all the time. But then it's all the other bits around it, and the other ways that we've been bitten, and how we avoid those scenarios, and then how we identify a risk like when someone says, “Oh, it's temporary. It's fine.” That part, I think, is always the very interesting aspect of writing software. CHRIS: Do you consider this sort of stuff the distraction from the work or actually the work? And in my experience, this makes up a lot of the work. And treating it like what you were saying about testing like, “Yeah, that thing where you're telling me that it's going to be temporary and we probably don't need to test it, I've been told that before,” and I just want to spot-check that real quick. Or what you said of the when I was manually testing, and I crossed a threshold where I'd done that enough, that now adding a test harness around that totally makes sense. It's worth the investment at that point. Those little heuristics that we build up over time are the things that are hard to get. And so, yeah, I love that conversation. STEPH: I really like how you also asked and then responded to that question around is this distraction, or is this the work? And I am wholeheartedly with you that this is the work. This is the part of the work that I do find interesting, and knowing when to make those trade-offs, and when you've hit a decision point, and which direction you're going to go, and being able to recognize something that otherwise could have been a fire. It could have been much worse in terms of if we'd built a task that wasn't robust. Because of course, then the second time that I ran it, you know, emphasis on the second time that I ran it because we needed to do it again to process more data. It erred halfway through, and I panicked in the moment. But then I was like, oh yeah, this is fine. We planned for this. This was in the game plan. So it goes back to that we want the calm execution. We want to plan so we are back in that calm state. We want calm software. And this feels very in line with how do we make this more calm? CHRIS: I love that theme that you're bringing up there, which I think is a theme that we've touched on a bunch of times. I think we actually have an episode called Seeking Calm. And I think that little title there, as much as I love the nonsense titles that we have for most of the episodes, that one I think really captures the theme that a lot of what we talk about is in orbit around yeah, we want it to be calm. We don't want things to be on fire every day. And what does it look like to build software with that in mind? STEPH: Yeah. I also love that theme. And I like that it's something that we have surfaced and then really stuck to because it resonates deeply with me. But that's pretty much all I have for my Rake task adventure. What else is new in your world? CHRIS: Well, I have one more hopefully quick thing. I'm going to try and boil this down to its essence, but I ran into, let's call it, a subtlety. It's not an issue. It wasn't a bug per se. But looping back to the previous episode that you and I recorded together, we talked a bunch about multi-step forms, which was a great conversation in and of itself. But I eventually completed the feature that I was working on, put it up for acceptance. And the product manager who was reviewing it highlighted a couple of different things. They recorded a video which, as an aside, I love that as a way to do acceptance and show what's going on and talk through it. There were a couple of smaller issues, which I was able to resolve very quickly, but there was one more interesting one that I've extracted this as future work because it was too complex to try and solve in the moment. But basically, what's happening is imagine that we have a two-step form. So there's the first page of the form. The first form that you see is for your name. So it's just an input that says, “Name,” and you fill in your name and then you hit continue. That posts to the server. We save off that data. And then, we redirect you to the next page on the form, which is, say, phone number. So two steps. We start with name; we go to phone number. What happens if you type in your name, you hit continue, everything processes correctly. You end up on the phone number page, but you hit back. What do you think happens? STEPH: I would expect to go back to the name field and probably expect my name to be populated but would also be fine if it's not. CHRIS: I like that you would be fine with the fact that it's not, if it's not, because it's not is the answer. And what's unfortunate is so if someone goes back, they will see the unpopulated form, so not filled out. But if they reload at that point, we will serialize down the value and pre-fill the input with their saved data. And so that inconsistency is not great. It's all the more unfortunate because as I tried to resolve it, I'm like, oh, okay, this feels like a solvable thing. I just need to tell Chrome, “Hey, if someone hits the back button, do a better thing than what you're doing.” I needed a way to instruct Chrome or whichever browser because this should be a standards-level thing. And there are things in the HTTP spec about this. So there's the Cache-Control Header is one of the headers that you can send down with a response. And there's a bunch of different values that can be in there, no-cache, no-store. There's also the…I want to say it's the max-age, or I think it's Expires. That's a different header. But you can set it to have an expiry that's just already expired. There's also a Pragma, which you can say no-cache. Some of these are standard. Some of these are not standard. Chrome ignores all of them. Chrome's just like, “Nevermind.” So the idea is that those headers are intended to inform intermediate proxies. Say you have a caching layer, so you're using Fastly or CloudFront or something like that. When that service fetches the page from your backend, from your actual, say, Rails app, then it will look at that header and say, “Should I hold onto this for a little while or not? Is it public, or is it private? What should I do as an intermediate caching proxy?” Ideally, Chrome would also look at those and say, like…there should be a version of me being able to tell Chrome, “Listen, if someone hits the back button, please go to the server and ask for it.” Like, I'll take the second of latency that that introduces in navigating back because I always want to show them the correct data. Unfortunately, I have not found a way to do that. There's a bunch of things on Stack Overflow and other places of JavaScript solutions where I can listen to the window.popstate event and then force location.reload. But that feels like a pile of hacks that I don't want to get into. It feels like it will be very inconsistent between browsers. So I am still searching for a solution. But I would like to figure something out here. As a more pointed version of this to try and explain an example where this could happen, imagine that you've got the header of your application, and in it, you have a sign-out button. And so that sign out is going to delete to the session's endpoint. So you're deleting your session. And after that, you get redirected to the login form. If you then hit back, you will be taken back to the browser's cached version of the previous logged-in state page that you were at. This is probably fine in a lot of cases. If you reload, you can't do any nefarious action at that point because you are logged out. But you are seeing potentially sensitive information. So imagine that you log in in a cafe, you go through Gmail, or whatever, or your bank, then you log out, you walk away. If you leave that page up and someone hits back, they can now see what was on the page. And part of that particular version, I read a bunch of backstory about that on the Inertia repo because someone posted this as an issue against Inertia as a framework. And the Inertia team...and I really love how they handle these sorts of things. So they were very kind, very welcoming to the issue but also said, “Actually, we're doing...like, this isn't us. But let's talk about it,” and gave a ton of detail and went through the HTTP spec. And it's a fantastic issue as a read. It's like a fun bedtime reading sort of thing to learn about how the internet works. But the Inertia crew really, really cares about being spec-compliant and doing the right thing. So, unfortunately, this is outside of their purview as well. But yeah, I don't have a solution, and it makes me sad. STEPH: I liked that second example that you provided because I feel like I see that one more commonly when I'm on an application, and I don't know why. But I hit back, and then it shows that I'm signed in, and I'm like, that's a lie, I'm not signed in. I also really appreciate how Inertia is responding so kindly and welcoming to folks and then providing such thoughtful responses. That sounds immensely helpful. I don't know, yeah, I am also interested in this. It's something that I haven't worked with in a while, so I don't have any grand ideas at the moment. So I'm also curious if other people have run into this and how they've approached it. CHRIS: Yeah. If we're being honest, partly I wanted to share this with you, but also I wanted to say this into a microphone, and then hopefully someone out there on the internet knows an answer. I've tried, I think, all of the normal things, all of the different variations of headers. I haven't actually poked at the JavaScript things yet, but that's probably the direction I'm going. But if anyone out there has an idea, I would absolutely love it. I think in my mind, the ideal version of this is if I'm making GET requests and I'm clicking around on a page, it's perfectly fine for Chrome to use its cache version of the previous page because, sure, that's fine. It may actually be stale just based on it's been a few seconds, and something's changed on the server, but I'm willing to accept that. But if I've posted, or patched, or deleted, or done any action that by definition should be changing data on the server, then I would love for a way to invalidate Chrome's back cache, so its version of the pages that it's restoring when I'm hitting back. I'd love that as the heuristic to get to. I don't know if I can get there. My sense says chrome's like, “No, I want to go fast. That's all I care about.” [chuckles] I'm like, all right. Well, I get that vibe but -- STEPH: Yeah, that's a nice, succinct way to say that if I've changed data, then I want to invalidate that browser cache, so then we don't show them a fresh page and we actually show them the name that they entered on the form. CHRIS: As we know, though, cache invalidation is one of the very easy things to do in software development. So I'm sure my naive, quick idea is very easy to implement and will have no edge cases of its own. STEPH: Well, this will be our parallel Pixar movie. We have one that we highlighted earlier, and this will be the other one, The Cache Buster. I'm not great with titles. [laughs] This will be our other Pixar movie. CHRIS: Buster the Lonely Cache. Yep. STEPH: All right. Well, in parallel, we'll work on Buster the Lonely Cache. Is that the name of this? CHRIS: Yep. STEPH: Cool. We'll work on that script. And in the meantime, I'll also think about it if I encounter this or come up with some ideas and share them with you. And then also if other people have any ideas, that'd be fantastic. CHRIS: That would be fantastic. STEPH: Yes. Please write in to help Buster with the lonely cache, which, wait; I don't get it. Why is it the lonely cache? CHRIS: Because the cache has been busted and evicted. So he's got no friends. There's nothing...There's no data left. I don't know. STEPH: [laughs] CHRIS: I came up with it real quick. I don't stand by it. It's not a great idea, but we'll workshop it. It'll be fine. STEPH: That's true. Yeah, we'll go through it. I'm asking too many questions for a very quick creative. We're in the creative space, not the critical space. But please write in to help Buster figure out [laughs] the lonely cache or how to bust the cache. Oh, goodness. I'm done with my jokes for today. I'll try to stop. CHRIS: I believe that's a perfect note. Shall we wrap up? STEPH: Let's wrap up. Show notes for this episode can be found at bikeshed.fm. CHRIS: This show is produced and edited by Mandy Moore. STEPH: If you enjoyed listening, one really easy way to support the show is to leave us a quick rating or a review in iTunes as it helps other people find the show. CHRIS: If you have any feedback for this or any of our other episodes, you can reach us @_bikeshed on Twitter. And I'm @christoomey. STEPH: And I'm @SViccari. CHRIS: Or you can email us at hosts@bikeshed.fm. STEPH: Thanks so much for listening to The Bike Shed, and we'll see you next week. All: Bye. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, and welcome to the National Taskforce on Lawyer Wellbeing Podcast Series, the Path to Wellbeing in Law. I'm your co-host, Chris Newbold, Executive Vice President of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. As you know, our goal here on the podcast is simple, to introduce you to interesting leaders doing incredible work in the space of wellbeing within the legal profession. In the process, build and nurture a national network of wellbeing advocates, intent on creating a culture shift within our profession.CHRIS: Once again, I'm joined by my friend, Bree Buchanan. Bree, we're 10 episodes into the podcast. They said it couldn't, it would never happen, but we are here, what a milestone. I'm curious what your impressions have been thus far within the podcast experience.BREE BUCHANAN: Yeah, hello, everybody. I think it's been great. One of the things I've enjoyed so much is being able to really get to know and dive with some of these people who are really leaders in the wellbeing space, and get to know them a little bit more. We get to interact with them by Zoom or email, but this is a really unique opportunity, so it's been great. I can't believe we already have 10 episodes in the can, so to speak. Time flies, so this has been great.CHRIS: It has, and like you, I like the fact that we get to have more in depth conversations with what I would call the movers and shakers of the wellbeing movement. It really allows us to delve into some issues a little bit deeper than we could probably do through CLEs or some other forums.CHRIS: So, well let's shift to our topic today. We shift the conversation a bit to one of the foundational bedrocks of the wellbeing movement, and that's our lawyers assistance programs. We're very excited to welcome our friend and fellow taskforce on lawyer wellbeing member, Terry Harrell, who resides in the Hoosier state of Indiana. Bree, I'm going to pass the baton to you because you've known Terry for a considerable amount of time and have worked with her on a variety of different issues. So if you could introduce Terry, we'll get the conversation started.BREE:I would love to. Terry occupies a very special place in my life because she was really the person who was responsible for getting me into this. I'll say a little bit more about that in just a minute, but Terry Harrow is a lawyer and a licensed therapist. She's been the Executive Director of the Indiana Judges and Lawyers Assistance Program, might refer to it as JLAP, for 20 years, following a decade of work in the mental health field.BREE:Terry is the past Chair of the ABA's commission on Lawyers' Assistance Program. She served in that role from 2014 to 27, and then at some point near the end of that, she snookered me into taking the reigns for the next three years. So yeah, she was really instrumental in getting me and she was, you are, Terry, the person who got me into this. So thank you.TERRY HARRELL: You're welcome, Bree. I do remember with the taskforce saying, "You've got to come do this, you have to come to this meeting. We're going to form this national taskforce."BREE:That's right.TERRY:I'm wondering whether you'd kill me later or thank me.BREE:Yeah, well here's the thank you. So as Terry became a leader in this space, that was certainly recognized in the ABA President at that time, appointed. It was Hillary Bass out of Florida, appointed Terry to lead the working group to advance wellbeing in the legal profession, which was an all-star group of people who were responsible for launching the ABA's Employer Wellbeing Pledge two years ago, which has been wildly successful. We have now about 200 signatories of some of the largest legal employers on the planet. Terry continues to be very involved in that. She's been a key partner within the national taskforce since its inception back in 2016.BREE:So, Terry, what did I miss? Welcome to the program.TERRY:You did a wonderful job, thank you, Bree. Happy to be here and I need to tell both you, I hadn't realized you'd done 10 already. I was aware of your podcast but I'm impressed, I'm impressed.BREE:So Terry I'm going to start off by asking you the question that we ask everybody is, what brought you to the lawyer wellbeing movement? What experiences in your life are behind your passion in this work? We found that people who really get involved and in the center of the circle of what we're doing, tend to have some real passion that's driving what they do. So, what's yours?TERRY:Yeah, that question makes you think back and I think it started young because my dad was a lawyer. I remember running with my dad and one of his partners in high school, I loved doing that. Of course we called it jogging, I won't tell you how old I am, but that gives it away. We'd go jogging and they would talk about how that helped them to stay more focused at work and improve their mood. As a child of a lawyer, I can testify that evenings when better when my dad went, stopped by the YMCA on his way home and exercised first before he came home. He was a trial lawyer, I think that I learned early that transition from work to home can be really helpful.TERRY:Then in high school, I had a friend who died by suicide, and then the father of a good friend also died by suicide. So I think that sparked my interest in mental health and my decision to major in psychology in undergrad. But then I went to law school, and actually, I loved law school. I'm probably a geek, there aren't many people who will say that but I made really good friends, I enjoyed it. Went to work in big law where I saw both some examples of probably good wellbeing practices and then some very bad practices, but I also learned that for me that work was not where my passion was. I learned what a burden it is to try and work that hard about something that you're not really passionate about.TERRY:Bree, I know you understand this, because you and I have spent our Christmas break working on policies before. You have spent I know, breaks working on tax documents and you only do that if you really, really care about what you're working on. To do that about something that isn't terribly meaningful to you is torture, to me at least.TERRY:So then I went back, after I worked in law for a couple of years, went back, got my MSW, worked in mental health in a variety of positions which was great. Loved it, but then I heard about this Lawyer Assistance Program and I thought, wow, I'd always wondered if I would get back to my legal roots somehow. Started working at the Lawyer Assistance Program, absolutely loved it. First as the Clinical Director, then as the... I became the Executive Director. Then it was really through the ABA Commission on Lawyer Assistance Programs, that I started thinking more broadly about lawyer wellbeing. At the LAP we were already thinking, and we can talk more later, but we were thinking about ways to talk about prevention with lawyers a little bit. Didn't have a lot of capacity and bandwidth to do that. But it was really through the commission that I started thinking about structures, the fishbowl in which we are swimming, as opposed to just dealing with each individual lawyer himself or herself, if that makes sense.BREE:Absolutely, yeah. At some point you want to go, get tired of pulling people out of the stream and you want to go upstream and stop what the real problem is, yeah.TERRY:Yeah, exactly, exactly.CHRIS: Terry, many people attribute the start of the wellbeing movement around the report that the National Taskforce released back in, surprisingly, 2016. The 44 recommendations and that, but we all know that the forerunner to that was the work of the Lawyer Assistance Programs. So I was hoping that you could give our listeners some perspective of just that history of the Lawyer Assistance Programs and how wellbeing has played a role and what you do. While it's probably taken on a more prominent role of late, but still being a centerpiece of what ultimately the programs were designed to do.TERRY:Yeah, I would love to do that. Begins to make me feel like I'm an old timer, but when you've been doing it for 20 years that happens, I guess.TERRY:Yeah, the LAP idea of lawyers helping lawyers, which is originally what we called a lot of the LAPs. Lawyers helping lawyers has been around for many decades, at least since the '70s. I believe much earlier than that, but it was a very informal, just volunteer, and it was mostly lawyers in recovery from addictions trying to help other lawyers who were struggling with addictions, and primarily alcohol, that's what they were. But then in the '80s, staff programs starting popping up, people started realizing, this could be a lot more helpful if there was a phone number, one phone number to call, one person who is the point person because it was hit and miss with the volunteer network on who found them and who didn't find them.TERRY:So states around the country started creating Lawyer Assistance Programs where they'd have an office with a phone number and a person assigned there. At that time, the ABA formed a commission, it was called the Commission on Impaired Lawyers. Tells you how far we've come. It was about helping impaired lawyers. It was very basic and the primary goal was to help states create a formal program to do this work. I forget exactly when, somewhere in the '80s I believe or early '90s, we changed it to the Commission on Lawyer Assistance Programs, which I think is a much better name. I don't know exactly the timing, but by 1997 when Indiana created our program, the stronger programs all over the country were what we called broad brushed, in that they dealt with mental health issues, including substance use issues but much broader. I think the earlier programs probably did assist a few lawyers with mental health problems, but that's not what they were known for.TERRY:Over the '90s I would say, and early 2000, almost I think all of the LAPs today are broad brushed, in that they will help lawyers with almost any problem that they come against, not just substance abuse problems but that myth still persists today. Even though Indiana, for an example, we've been a broad brushed program since 1997 and yet I will go out and speak and some lawyer will walk up to me and say, "Wow, I wish last year I'd known that you dealt with problems other than alcohol because Wilma Flintstone was grieving her husband's death and we thought she was really depressed, but because we know she didn't drink, we never thought to call the Lawyer Assistance Program." So that kills me and I want to get that word out there. I'm sure Bree has heard those stories as well.BREE:Absolutely, yeah.TERRY:So the LAP was doing our work, helping lawyers that were either brought to our attention or came to us voluntarily wanting help. All along, I kept thinking, we should also be doing some more prevention work. I'd like to offer some lawyer's running group or do some more education, get some more education out there. I couldn't believe how many years I've been doing JLAP 101 presentations.TERRY:One of our state bar presidents said, "Terry, what if we create a wellness committee at the state bar, will that upset the LAP? Would we be taking your turf?" I said, "Absolutely not. You can help us because you can do more of those proactive things, like have healthy eating seminar for lawyers or sponsor 5Ks and do some more of that front end work than what the LAP has the bandwidth to do." We work together very closely. I mean, I was a Co-Chair that first year, I'm back being Chair again, Co-Chair again this year. In fact, the way it works is the wellness committee supports a 5K run but you know who's there at 6:30 in the morning to organize the whole thing? It's always staff from the Lawyer Assistance Program. So we really worked hand-in-hand and we're still having discussions about, how do we work together to be able to do more and not duplicate efforts and not cause each other any hard but actually do more? Because there's certainly lots more work to do, tons more work.BREE:Yeah, and Terry, I'm interested in... because you've been so central in this space and know all the players and people. Particularly since the report has come out, what do you see in the area of, I think of it as prevention work, but a lot of times it comes under the heading of wellbeing or wellness. What are some of the things that you're seeing that the LAPs are doing now?TERRY:I think we're offering, we're increasing the breadth of our programming, which is good. We're focusing our marketing efforts, if you will, on those things. I know in our LAP, we found that our care for the caregivers support group is one of the more popular groups, that and our grief group have been more popular. They've helped people to understand that there are certain issues that may impact everyone or at least any one of us can encounter. By being part of some of these wellness efforts with the state bar, I think people started to perceive us more as wellbeing people and it's a good thing to be seen hanging out with those people, as opposed to in the past when they saw us as the alcohol police. They really didn't want to be seen with us, or I'd walk into a cocktail party and someone would put his drink behind his back. It's like, we're not the alcohol police, we're all about wellbeing. I think that has started to come through, and it's helped with collaborations.TERRY:With the report coming out with these very specific recommendations, I was able to talk to the state bar and the LAP and the state bar put on a symposium for legal employers talking specifically about the recommendations for legal employers and what they can do to improve wellbeing. That was fabulous, actually, we had wonderful speakers from a lot of the law firms and corporate council groups around the state. That was just great. We're still getting our normal referrals, and of course those remain confidential, but we're doing so much more that doesn't have to be confidential, like offering yoga and offering a mindfulness session, that I think we're more visible to. We're not this mysterious hidden group any longer.TERRY:With more emphasis on wellbeing and the taskforce report coming out, and the pledge from the ABA. Even my own supreme court decided to create a wellbeing committee specifically for supreme court employees. So we're a 250-person group ourselves, so we've added that. So I mean, I just think raising the visibility and the emphasis on wellbeing has had incredible results for us.CHRIS:Terry, as you think about... I mean I'm not as familiar with the Lawyer Assistance Programs, although being on the malpractice prevention side, we certainly have partnered with... I mean, we work a lot in rural states, so we were aware of certain states that still did not have a Lawyer Assistance Program. My sense is now that I think all 50 states actually have one. Not knowing when you started with the Indiana program, I would just love to hear your perspective on where we were then versus where we are now from an evolution perspective. You got to be pretty excited because this feels like there's a lot more with the innovations going on in the wellbeing side, I like to always think of the Lawyer Assistance Programs as, you guys are the heroes in the trenches every day. I think that there's a great appreciation for the work that you do but it's been a lot of work to get to the point where the issue has become back on the front burner as a national topic of discussion.TERRY:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I mean even when we created our program in '97, there was still a lot of states that did not have a program at all. Now, there were a lot that did. Indiana is rarely first, but we're rarely last. There were also states that only served lawyers, they didn't serve law students, they didn't serve judges. So I'll make a plug for my state, I was very proud of my state that they looked around and said, "Looks like the better programs serve law students, lawyers and judges, the entire legal community, and they're broad brushed." We made that decision but it took a while, into the 2000s I'd say. Now we're at the point where I think almost every state... let me phrase it this way. I think every state has a Lawyer Assistance Program, some are more robust than others. There's a fair number that still have only one employee and there might be one that's still voluntary, but there's definitely someone we could get a hold of at every state that is concerned with Lawyers' Assistance. So we've come so, so far.TERRY:I remember in the day when it was hard. I mean, we knocked on doors to get... we wanted to get our message out at various lawyer conferences, and we really had to work at that. Today, everyone wants a wellbeing program at their conference, whether it's prosecutors or defenders or trial attorneys, judges, everyone wants a wellbeing program. So now, I mean I talk to my staff about we may have to start to get selective because we're doing so many presentations throughout the year that we've got to make sure we have time to take care of our clients as well. That's the most important part of what a LAP does, but it's a great problem to have to work at. I think a lot of that credit goes to the wellbeing movement, that it's on people's radar. So organizations that I wasn't even aware of who never thought to contact are now contacting us.BREE:That's great.TERRY:That's huge.BREE:Yeah, that is.CHRIS: Yeah, and let's take a quick break because one of the things I'd love to come back and talk about is just how the demand has evolved over time, because I've got to think with COVID and other things, the demand was already high but we're at an even more interesting place with the pandemic.CHRIS: So, let's hear from one of our sponsors, take a quick break, and we'll be back.—Advertisement: Your law firm is worth protecting and so is your time. ALPS has the quickest online application for legal malpractice insurance out there. Apply, see rates, and find coverage all in about 20 minutes.Being a lawyer is hard. Our new online app is easy. Apply now at applyonline.alpsnet.com.—BREE:Welcome back, everybody. We are so honored today to have Terry Harrell, who is really a leader, the leader, one of the leaders in the Lawyers' Assistance Program world. She has worked at every level of that experience. Terry has been the Executive Director of the Indiana JLAP for the past 20 years, so brings a wealth of experience.BREE:So I'm guessing, Terry, that you have a finger on the pulse of how things are going with the LAPs during COVID? The level of demand and how they're meeting and what they're seeing. I mean, early on in the pandemic, what I knew in talking to the LAP programs is that they felt that people were hesitating to call. The demand went down at first, but I don't think that's the case now. What are you seeing?TERRY:I think you're right on spot, Bree. I think when... My experience, and I think I heard this echoed correct with the other LAPs is that last spring, calls dropped off. I think two reasons. One, all the law students got sent home from law school. We couldn't do our onsite support groups for law students any longer or meeting one-on-one with law students. Those calls, I mean they went dead silent. We heard nothing from the law students for months.TERRY:But the lawyers and judges also dropped off. I don't know, my thinking is, and this is just Terry Harrell speaking. I think the lawyers and judges were busy trying to help others, trying to help their firm or their court staff deal with what was going on at work, trying to help their families, trying to help their communities figure out what had to happen. As usual, as lawyers will do, they put themselves last and they just sucked it up and did the work they had to do because as the pandemic continued, and I think this is true for all the LAPs, I know it's true for us, the calls began to come back. Lawyers and judges are calling us, we're starting to have our normal calls again, as well as, it's funny, the COVID stress calls don't come in directly. Someone will call me, concerned about another person, say, another lawyer in the firm.TERRY:Then next thing I know, we're talking. Well, how is this isolation and the pandemic, how's that affecting you? Next thing I'm talking to that lawyer about their stressors. To where we've all noticed, they come in sideways because lawyers as usual, are busy trying to help other people, but they're getting to us now. I'm really pleased with that, that our normals are back up to normal.TERRY:What I would say, I hate to say there's a bright spot in a pandemic because there's nothing good about this pandemic, but one of the things, I guess a silver lining of a bad experience, has been our support groups. We had before pandemic, we had, I don't know, eight maybe support groups going around the state, but if you lived in a smaller community, there wasn't one close to you. We just couldn't justify having support groups in some of those communities that had few lawyers in them. Even if you go into Indianapolis, to get to the downtown support group, if you work on the north side to get done with your work day and drive 45 minutes to downtown Indianapolis for a support group wasn't real. Then 45 minutes home, wasn't realistic.TERRY:So when the pandemic hit, we moved everything to Zoom. We talked about it but we'd never done it. We just did it because we didn't have any choice. It's been great because we've been able to include people from more rural areas. It no longer matters geographically and so people have come to groups that normally wouldn't have. They've been much more effective than I would've guessed.TERRY:We also added a group, that just called our Connection Group. So everyone who is practicing law or going to law school or serving as a judge during the pandemic is eligible. We're all eligible, it's just to connect with other members of the legal community. It's robust and people get on there and talk about the challenges that they're facing. They also laugh as most support groups, they also laugh and have a good time.TERRY:So I think when it's over, we'll go back to having some in person, I mean because doggone it, sometimes there's nothing like a hug or an arm on your shoulder, but I think we'll continue with the Zoom support group meetings because they are more effective than I ever would've guessed. It allows us to get to those people in rural communities. I mean, this may be something, Chris, for those states like North Dakota and Montana, where you just don't have big populations of lawyers. If they can do things by Zoom, I have been shocked at how well that has gone.CHRIS:Yeah, I think you raise a good point, because I think that in some ways the legal profession is now more connected because of the necessity of having to utilize technology to connect with one another. One of the things that I've seen in the bar association world is that fairly significant rise in participation in CLE program. Obviously that all went virtual, but they're seeing, particularly in rural states, record numbers of people sitting in on getting their CLEs and connecting in an entirely different way. So that's going to be really interesting to see how that plays out from a support perspective in the longterm, but like you said, I'd be rather optimistic that we feel like people are not as far away even though we're physically not together. There's connection points that we can certainly rely on as we move forward.TERRY:Absolutely.BREE:Terry, I know the... and just to emphasize and reemphasize this as those in the LAP world always do, that everything is confidential about the calls, 100%. But of course abiding by confidentiality, can you talk about maybe any trends that you have seen in the kind of calls that you're getting? I mean since they've started to pick back up, do you see more extreme situations? Have the type of calls changed, or just going back to what they were before?TERRY:I would say it's really, it's amazing but I think they're going back to the mix we had before, which has tended to be more heavy on mental health recently than addiction, which is interesting. Although, sometimes we find out there's also an addiction issue there, of course, but it's in the same mix of lawyer with dementia, demeanor issues, depression, alcohol. We have had two... again, thinking about confidentiality, I have to think what I saw but we've had two pretty dramatic relapse situations and I don't know if those were due to COVID or not. It's too new but they were two people that we thought had a really solid recovery. So I will be over time I'm sure, we'll figure some of that out and see if that played into it or it was just the course of addiction itself.BREE:Sure.TERRY:But yeah, I haven't seen a big change in the type of calls we get, other than it's almost like the pandemic is just one more layer. It's one more stressor on top of everything else.CHRIS:Terry, I'm curious that the pandemic I think for a lot of people has been an opportunity to reflect on their current state of life. I'm just curious particularly with your social work background, just your perspective on... people are evaluating all parts of their family and their professional life, their relationships, and how that ultimately... I'm sure there will be books and book written post pandemic about the impacts of that as a reflection point. We're just curious on your perspective of lawyers in particular and as they had to work from home and not be as connected. I've heard some lawyers say, "I really never want to go back to an office again." So I'm just curious on that, on your perspective on that.TERRY:Yeah, I mean like you say, it'll be years before we know the total impact, but I definitely think it has caused people to think about, what do I really need to do? Do I need to be going this hard? Do I need to travel that much? Maybe I want to take a job where I can, if my employers let me continue to stay at home, maybe I'll quit that job and find a job that allows me to work from home. I'm aware of at least one retirement that was, not caused by the pandemic, but hastened by having that time to reflect on what's really important in life. The lawyer decided, you know what? I was going to wait two more years but why? Why am I doing that? I want to spend this time with my family, I'm going to go ahead and retire. So I think there'll be changes in workplace policies, and I don't know how that will all fold out.TERRY:Yeah, and I think there'll be some career changes because I think there will be some people who have decided what's most important to them, that there may be some shuffling around. People may make some career decisions because they've had time to sit with themselves and decide what's really meaningful and what works for them, instead of just jumping into the daily grind thoughtlessly every day. I think we'll see some changes.CHRIS:Yeah, and employers may need to adapt as well. Again, I think it's going to be very interesting to see that if nothing else, the work-life balance has been called into question. As we think about wellbeing as wanting people to feel like they've made a good decision in are professionally satisfied in the practice of law. Having a pandemic in the midst of a career has an opportunity for you to rethink your position in that world.TERRY:It really does. I mean, there's some dramatic instances. I've heard of lawyers who went into the courtroom and the judge said, "I won't let you go forward unless you take your mask off," where they thought it was... something like that can make you think, well, is this really worth risking my life to do big things? Then maybe employers will change. It's turned out there's some people who are very rigid about, I want you at your desk working 8:30 to 4:30 or whatever, very rigid hours. They may have learned that actually if you tell people, "This is the work you need to get done but you can be flexible about when you do it," and it still gets done, that may open up some possibilities for people. Yeah, it will be very interesting to see what happens.CHRIS:Terry, you've been very involved in the work to create systemic change in the legal profession, both as it relates to wellbeing and both in Indiana and on the national front. Could you talk with us about some of the projects that you're currently involved with? Again, both at home and on a national level?TERRY:I would love to. Bree mentioned earlier that Hillary Bass created the working group to advance wellbeing in the legal profession, but that was a working group that was sunset a couple years ago, but one of the major initiatives of that group was the ABA Wellbeing Pledge. That pledge was meant to continue and to continue to be there to encourage and support employers to make changes in the workplace to benefit lawyer wellbeing. So CoLAP took that under their umbrella and created a wellbeing committee at CoLAP, which I'm still involved in.TERRY:I'm particularly involved in our subcommittee that's working on that pledge. We have, I don't have a current number, it's approximately 200 people have signed the pledge. That's a very rough number, but more people are signing on. We're starting to get feedback on what the legal employers are doing. I want to stop, it's easy to say firm, we mean legal employers. This is for anyone who employs lawyers in their workplace, whether it's a government agency, law school, law firm, in-house council. It's broad, broader than just law firms, I want to be clear about that.TERRY:We've seen some big changes, we have seen law firms are updating their policies to be respectful of mental health and encourage people to get the help they need when they need it. I've seen law firms hire wellbeing directors and I've seen them go a different way and hire an actual in-house therapist to be available to their staff. There's just been explosion of wellbeing activities and programs in the law school, that go on and on about that. Now, I do think most of those are aimed at the students, which is great, but I think we need to circle back and remind the law schools that they also employ a whole lot of lawyers on staff and make sure that those wellbeing initiatives are also including their own employees, because I'm not sure it's been interpreted that way at the law schools.TERRY:Legal employers are doing things to reduce the emphasis on alcohol, either by having events that are not built around alcohol or by having more options available or limiting the amount of alcohol served. I think there's still a lot of thought going into how to do that by the legal employers. All legal employers are offering some sort of wellbeing training, whether that's learning about mindfulness, financial wellness, nutrition, learning about your Lawyer Assistance Program and your EAP. A fair number are offering some fitness coaching kind of alternatives, there's a lot of creative work being done. I know Bree's been following some of those signatories as well. She's also on that wellbeing committee. It's fun to see and I just can't wait to see what else comes out of those initiatives with the legal employers.TERRY:I'm going to talk about the policy committee briefly, but did you all have anything you wanted to say about the pledge? I know Bree, you've been really involved in that as well.BREE:No, but I think that it really is beginning to change the way things are done. It also, we're creating opportunities for these pledge signatories to come together and share information and strategies. So it's a great project and one that's just getting started.TERRY:Right, in fact I should mention, in March we're going to have a virtual event for those law firm signatories. So if anybody's thinking about joining, I would suggest you join before March so you can take part in the March virtual, of course, event.TERRY:I'm also on the ABA policy committee today, and that group is looking at the taskforce recommendations, particularly ones on what the regulators should do, because the taskforce report asked that regulators take action to communicate that lawyer wellbeing is a priority. I think that means getting it into written policies and rules so that it's there for the long term, not just something we talk about at one CLE and move on. So policy committees looking at the model rules of professional responsibility, with an eye on how can we emphasize wellbeing as an aspect of competence. I'm not going to go into more detail on that yet because I think there's a lot of moving parts there, but I hope that we will be able to make some change in the model rules that institutionalizes wellbeing so it doesn't go away. So that law professors can talk about it in their professional responsibility classes, so that CLE ethics can tie to it. I think there'll be all sorts of benefits to institutionalizing the idea in the model rules. We're watching other policies where there's an opportunity to add that in.BREE:Yep, so foundational. [crosstalk 00:35:23] about what's going on in Indiana. You guys have taken the lead in some initiatives. The character and fitness questions.TERRY:Yeah, in terms of systemic change, I think this is a really important one. For those who don't know, most bar examiners historically ask... years ago, they asked a really intrusive question about, have you ever been diagnosed with or treated for a variety of mental health conditions? I think the question had been narrowed by most states but it was still there. CoLAP has continued to push and I've not been directly involved in those efforts, but to tell states that the question needs to come off the bar application. It's okay to ask about misconduct or behavior that's concerning or problems with performance, but it's inappropriate to ask whether someone has a diagnosis or has sought treatment for something.TERRY:We went to our Chief Justice, I guess it was six months ago now maybe. Once we explained it to her, she said, "You're absolutely right, we should not be asking that question, period. Let's take it off starting today. Let's just remove it." We even had had a few applications come in and she said, "Just strike it from the few applications that have come in. We are not using that question anymore-BREE:Wow.TERRY:... starting today," which was fabulous.BREE:I didn't know that, that's great, Terry.TERRY:She did it, because we thought we'd have to wait until the next round because it had still been on the application. She's like, "No, we'll just mark it out on this one and then take it off the next one and we're done with that question right now." That was fabulous, and we're not the first state. I know New York for sure has done that. I think there's a couple others that I can't recall, but I'm hoping that the snowball is rolling and that more and more... because that's something that sends a message to law students, it sends a message to lawyers, that getting treatment is a good thing. That's a positive thing, not a weakness. It's so important.BREE:So essential before they join the legal profession. So Terry, this the capstone question. So, are you ready?TERRY:Okay.BREE:So pull out your crystal ball and tell us, I think you're one of the best people I the country to talk about this. What does the Lawyers' Assistance Program of the future look like? I mean, what would be ideal? Then talk about it if you can, what it takes to get there.TERRY:Well what's in my head is more of a picture, it may not have the details in it yet, maybe you two can help me flesh it out, but one of our volunteers for years has always said that her vision for JLAP, for our LAP, is that it's a coffee shop. It's this friendly, open coffee shop where lawyers can stop in, get a cup of coffee, connect to others, talk over their challenges. There's no stigma to coming in, it's a very welcoming and encouraging place. I really think that idea, that is the LAP's role, it's helping lawyers to connect, whether it's to a volunteer, another lawyer, a support group, or to professional treatment of some kind, or just reconnect with themselves. That's the key, I think, underlying LAPs.TERRY:Wellbeing is very individual, so it's maybe the LAPs are helping all lawyers to stay on track with their own wellbeing, whatever that means. Thriving and performing at their highest level. I can envision, what is LAPs, every lawyer did an annual checkup just like you do with your primary doctor?BREE:Great.TERRY:Let's pause, push the pause button, sit down with someone from LAP and just say, "Am I taking care of myself? Am I thriving, or am I merely getting by, or am I really sinking here?" Wouldn't that be great, to just pause once a year and meet with somebody and have that discussion? That would obviously probably take a few more staff, so maybe a little more funding, but that's my big vision.BREE:Great, and in the report, one of the recommendations under that, the LAP section, was to make sure that there adequate funding for the programs to be able to meet the need. A part of that need, it's the calls and it's also be able to get out and do all of this public education that is now being requested. We've seen some successes in that around the country, particularly we had the podcast from Virginia and how they got an increase in funding that, I don't know, tripled?CHRIS:Yes.BREE:What they were able to do and able to hire full-time professional staff, and that's really made all the difference. So there's always that piece too.TERRY:There really is. Two things about that. I need to give a shout out to my Supreme Court for supporting us, fully supporting us with funding, helping us with staff, but also during the pandemic with laptops and speaker or headsets and cameras and all that's necessary to do our work. The other piece is, yes, you have to have a LAP that's well funded because we have people that are out doing these presentations, which you can't just walk away in the middle of a presentation. We have calls coming in and we also have these crisis situations that come in where suddenly one or two staff people may have to just take off and go deal with a crisis situation. Whoever's left has to pick up whatever they were supposed to do that day. So the funding is a tricky... funding and staffing is a sticky, interesting issue.BREE:Yeah, absolutely.CHRIS:I think it's interesting, Terry, that first of all, I love your coffee shop analogy because I do think that we're ultimately trying to create a space that's a very welcoming space. I know how much you have been emboldened in your mission because of the support of your Supreme Court. I almost think of the judiciary as being the baristas in those coffee shops because if they are offering us a wide menu of options and also helping with the systemic change and being supportive, I think so much of what we've been able to achieve in the wellbeing movement has been because of the support of the judiciary. Most notably the state Supreme Courts.TERRY:Absolutely.CHRIS:... and the development of the taskforces. We struck a nerve with a group of individuals who, let's be honest, are the leaders in our profession. The more that they're sitting at the table in that coffee shop as our baristas, I think the more effective we will ultimately be, not just in the success of the Lawyer Assistance Programs but in engineering this culture shift that ultimately is our longterm goal.TERRY:That's absolutely right. We've had such good support institutionally from our court and from our Chief Justice. We also have two of our justices are actually JLAP volunteers. One justice in particular, he goes around and will speak with us and say flat out, "It is okay not to be okay. It happens to everyone from time to time, it is okay to ask for help. We don't expect perfection from you, we expect excellence and that means taking care of yourself." It's fabulous when lawyers here that from that level, that kind of leadership.BREE:What a great message, yeah.TERRY:It is, truly is.CHRIS:Well, this has been... this again, Terry, you are one of the pioneers in our space here, working in the trenches. You've been so giving of your time, talent, resources, expertise. We're thrilled to have you in our midst, we're thrilled to have you on the podcast. We just can't say enough.CHRIS:Bree and I both served on the ABA working group and the amount of work product that came out of that group under your leadership in that short period of time was really impressive.TERRY:Well, thank you to the two of you for taking that ball and then running with it. It's been fabulous and I'm really excited to see where we go in the future with the wellbeing.CHRIS:Awesome, Bree, any closing thoughts?BREE:Just to echo what you've said, Chris. We are so appreciative, Terry. It's great to spend some time with you.CHRIS:All right, so we will be back in a couple weeks with our next podcast. A lot of great things, I think, on the horizon, in the wellbeing movement. Bree and I think, as we think about the long term sustainability of our movement, there's some real exciting things happening. A considerable amount of outreach and conferences on the horizon. So there's just a lot of good stuff happening out there, both at the state level and the national level. So we certainly hope to be a part of being able to promote those things that are on the horizon because it just feels like more and more things are cropping up on the calendar and that's good for ultimately where we're trying to take it.CHRIS:So, for everyone out there, be good, be safe, be well. We will see you on the next podcast. Thanks for joining us. 

I sat down with Chris Hay of LoveWorkRevolution.co to talk about his journey through his 30's and how he plans on changing as many lives as possible with his new mastermind. Enjoy! Joe Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: My guest this week is Chris Hay, you can find Chris's website at LoveWorkRevolution.co. Chris did some exploration during his 30s right after selling his company. He now just turned 40 in November of 2020 and he's working on a new project, a new mastermind, if you will. He has an acronym for the project he's working on and the mastermind he's building.   Joe: And it's H.E.A.R.T. H is heal and hear your heroic heart.   E Explore your genius. A accept your mission R rebirth yourself T take action and trust. I would encourage you to check out his website at LoveWorkRevolution.co and also get in touch with him at Chris@LoveWorkRevolution.co. Please sit back and enjoy my conversation with Chris Hay.   Joe: My guest today is Chris Hay, Chris and I hit it off really well on a completely unrelated conversation to what we're going to talk about today. And during that conversation, we realized that we both are really excited about the same thing. And so I wanted him to come on and talk to us about that. He's originally from New Zealand. He's coming to us now from Barcelona, Spain, where he currently lives. Chris, welcome to the podcast.   Chris: Thank you so much. It's a great pleasure and honor to be here. And yeah, as I mentioned to you, I'm deeply grateful, particularly because this my first guest appearance. So I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm sure you'll go easy on. You know, I've got a lot of learnings that I've taken and been working on condensing down and really excited to share with your audience and and beyond. So thanks so much for having me.   Joe: Yeah, absolutely my pleasure. So if most of the people who have listened to any of my past podcasts know that for me, it's important to have the guest give their back story so that we understand who you are, where you came from, and it sort of lays the foundation for the conversation that we're going to dig in deeper about all that you're doing now and it new, exciting project that you're working on. So if you can't and this is great for me to because you and I have only chatted a few times, but it would be really cool to understand where Chris Hay came from and and where Chris Hay is going.   Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much. So, yeah, an interesting thing happened to me when I was 31 years old in 2011, and I kind of feel like this is the beginning of the modern day part of my life with you. Life, like everything that happened up until the end was kind of a dry run or whatever. And then this one moment kind of feels like where I was sort of born again, if you like, what would become the, I guess, the middle part of my life or something like that. So basically, yeah, 2011. And I'm 31 years old and I'm sitting on the beach in Bali on my head, looking out on the most spectacular sunset. And I've come here to celebrate selling my business, which I've been working on all throughout my 20s, kind of leading up to this moment with this great anticipation that when I saw my business, you know, I'm going to have cash and in cash flow looks like the happiness. And as I'm sitting there looking out on the sunset, I just feel dreadfully lost and empty and just completely bamboozled, I guess for lack of a better word, that everything I've invested all of my hopes and dreams that I'm building up to this this milestone and then cashing out is going to bring all this happiness. And of course, it just doesn't. So that's right.   Chris: As I sat there and over the next three days while I'm on this vacation, I really was reflecting on my the paradigm change that had happened to my brain because I realized that concurrently I'd lost my purpose and my reason for getting out of bed in the morning, because previously I've had this business. Now I'm like, how am I going to do with the rest of the life? I'd also lost my identity to a large degree because I had been quite ripped off and invested in the identity of being like this 20 something year old, pretty successful entrepreneur. And now I'm kind of like shit. I just I don't even know what I'm going to do next and I'm going to go about figuring that out. But perhaps more than anything, I realized that I've really lost my art on how to find happiness. And and I really believe that this maybe not lasting forever, but like at least, you know, the golden boy that could last more than like five minutes or something like that. So as I reflect of all of that, I was talking about like, OK, where do I go from here? And I knew that it had to be something entrepreneurial because I don't want to go back and get a job like looking for the man. But I knew that I had to be about much more than just making money.   Chris: I had something much more impactful and meaningful and genuinely like helping people because my previous business, to be totally honest, like when I thought it, I really was pretty much just thinking about the money. That was my main motivation. So I reflected on all of this and, you know, and kind of sat there for the rest of this vacation moping around, kind of feeling sorry for myself. I really had no idea where to start and try to figure out how to rebuild my life. And and so it began, as I call it, has other people refer to it as the dark night of the soul. You know what? Tend to lock it up for me to be quite a long and painful, drawn out process that really, to be honest with you, lasted pretty much all of my thirties. Thirty one when I sold that business, I turned 40 in November, just gone. And so really throughout my thirties was this really intense and difficult period of introspection and and figuring out all the elements that I don't like about myself and other. I do like to myself initially, you know, and really learning deeply, but not just about myself, but about how I could show up and and and do work that I would love and have a positive impact in the world.   Joe: Can I ask you one quick question?   Chris: Yeah. Yeah, of course   Joe: So we hear this so often when someone that's successful. Right. And we always we hear from the wisdom of those who have accomplished something and they've reached some sort of financial stability and then they get to that point or they get to that moment of what they call success. Right. What they originally were striving for, which was the money and creating this entity. And then potentially, right? if you have a business, the goal is eventually to sell it in cash out on that and then maybe go to the next thing. Right?   Joe: But we hear so often that people get to that spot, they sell, they have the financial freedom, and then it doesn't it's not what they thought it was going to be. And I think that the hard thing for people that maybe haven't gotten to that point yet and the only reason I want to stop you here is because these things also get into my own brand, like what was more painful, struggling financially or getting to the point where you had the money and then it wasn't all that it meant to be like if you had the choice.   Chris: A great question. So it's a really good question.   Chris: So I guess I would like to reframe that question. What I'm hearing is like what was the greatest challenge was that the struggle for money or wasn't the struggle for meaning which came afterwards? Well, until I cashed out of that business, the money was the biggest struggle I'd ever had. Like struggling to build that business was the greatest challenge in my life that I've had. And until that time. But it was superseded by what came next, which was the struggle for meaning. And I think I don't know, I'm in for some lucky people, this might come a lot more naturally than it did for me young people or more successful than you. And whatever metric you might consider their success, whether it's financially or or perhaps a more holistic measure of success, is how well they've found their passion or the purpose or and ideally the combination of those good things that they sound like they're they're passionate about and are doing well financially out of it. I mean, that's the gold standard. I think that's what we're all aiming for. So for me, making money, making money was was hard making making money or like making it even just an income or a comfortable income that's good enough to live off and whatnot. Doing what you truly feel like you want to do is, I would say in some ways more challenging because it requires that you know yourself at a much deeper level, which can only happen with great introspection and then over time.   Chris: But in some ways it's easier when you find it because, you know, you might have people say that if you you find the kind of work that you're supposed to do on work that you love and you'll never feel like you work another day in your life. Right. So as you I think as you get closer to finding as you sniff it out and you're on the trail and you're kind of getting closer and closer and closer with the various projects you might be engaged in and then honing in on the work that you truly want to do that feels like play for you and makes you come alive. Then then I guess that part of it gets easier. And then you try to, like, build your skill level to a standard where the world will reflect the value back to you in the form of financial renumeration. That makes sense. That's a very long way of asking your questions. I would get into that, I guess, easier in some ways and more challenging in other ways. But certainly it requires a much deeper level of self-awareness, I think, which takes longer to get to just how do we get a product designed in China and sell it on Amazon, for example? I suspect that people are doing that.   Joe: But I mean, some people possibly will struggle their whole life. And it's unfortunate. And and I meant that like financially or also that they're not doing what they were meant to do on this earth. Right. So the choice is if you gave someone the choice of saying, OK, you can have you can. And the struggles usually are the financial part of it, the your health. And then it's whether or not you enjoy your life. And that means you're doing some. That resonates with your soul, right? Maybe those are the you know, there's probably more I mean, a million books and but if I think about myself, it's like, OK, I have my health. I love a lot of the things that I'm doing. And I might not be at the financial level that I want but I think if I if I have the choice, I'd rather be where I am and and and do this than to be financially free. But hate what I have to wake up and do every day. Right. So and I think the problem is, is until you get to the point where maybe you got to where you sold a company and you had some financial freedom, when people hear someone like you say, hey, you know, I sold my company, not just you, I mean anybody. I sold my company and I I made a lot of money and I got to the end goal of what I set out to do. And at the end, I wasn't happy. And if someone hasn't done that, they have a hard time relating to resonate with that.   Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, another way to put it is like at the end of last year, the year before last, now coming into 2020, let me sort of Zoom out again for a second that like this wasn't a one and done for me, you know, like after I sold the business and had this experience of kind of like reaching an extrinsic goal and, and finding that this feeling of emptiness on the other side of it, like you would think that that would be enough to kind of knock, knock, knock that paradigm completely out of my head and replace it with the new paradigm.   Chris: Only do things that are intrinsically rewarding. Which, by the way, science has found that intrinsically rewarding tasks, things that you would do even know that are rewarding in their own right for richer or rewarding motivation that leads to greater happiness. So if you can find if you can if you can pursue that, then you will be happier, even if you don't have to get to the high paying job in order to realize that it's simply just research around. Like, for example, is a Daniel Pink's Motivation 3.0, where he talks about intrinsic extrinsic motivation. So if you understand that, you will have a richer, better life experience by being driven by things like purpose and mastery and autonomy, then you can you can build that into your job, crafting if you're employed or into your business, if you're an entrepreneur. So you don't necessarily have to get to that milestone and realize that's what I started out by talking about how you think that having this experience once at such a deep level would be enough to kind of totally rewire your brain that you wouldn't make the same mistake again. But for me at least, and I think that it's common a lot in our culture, we're so hard wired to be motivated by extrinsic motivators, money, the trappings of success that add up that it's very that I didn't just learn at once like this has been.   Chris: I don't like the volition of my lifetime. After I sold that business and I vowed to myself that whatever the next had to be about more than just the money had to be more meaningful. I would still, for the several years that came up, that still pantelides that be like and tempted by lucrative opportunities. And I spent countless lost months and cumulatively is kind of going down the rabbit hole just like, oh, this looks like a, you know, an interesting business idea, which is just financially motivated and whatnot.   Chris: So I got to the point anyway, where I get before the last bout, or at least my New Year's resolution was to remove all extrinsic goals and replace them with one goal, which was in a piece, because I think that we oftentimes put in a piece or happiness on the other side of extrinsic goals, like when I achieved this milestone, then I'll feel happy. And when we do that, we you know, we pride ourselves on happiness here and now and then.   Chris: So that's the trap that I found myself falling into time and time again. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. And so. Now and when we have these big, lofty goals, it creates a friction as well, like where where the goal is and where we are now and then at least all of these feelings of inadequacy and lack of self-worth, because I'm not, quote unquote there yet, you know what I mean? So I'm still kind of trying to get my head up, to be honest, at the deepest level.   Chris: But I think that it's about kind of holding holding space for ideas and visions that you might have that you want to achieve, but also kind of being less attached to them, I guess, you know, so that they don't rob you of your happiness here and now and above all else, being present and being grateful for the moment. And and I've found as well and spoke at a lot of other people who kind of have the shared experience as well as like the more we do that and remove ourselves from this relentless rushing towards the goal that may or may not ever eventuate and leaning into the future and at the cost of sacrificing our happiness here and now, that the the the more we stay present, the more kind of, you know, without getting to work with, the more kind of magic shows up in our lives. But first of all, we just appreciate the moment more. So maybe, I don't know, you take time to go for a walk in the morning and smell the fresh air and admire your your neighbor's flower garden or whatever it might be. So you notice those things. But also and this is this is kind of borderline a move by magic can sometimes show up like synchronicities and whatnot. And so that's the one grand synchronicity that kind of unfolded in my life, which led to a deeper understanding of my work and my my, my my greatest gift that I feel that I've received and that I can kind of share with others. So I'm curious if you want to go there and share that story with you as well.   Joe: Yeah. So because I kind of interrupted you, because I wanted to clarify that, you know, if you've seen both sides, not everybody, I guess that was my point. Not everybody sees gets to both sections. Right? They either. And if they do that, like you said, they're they're either really happy doing what they're doing. And I think it comes when you're you're serving others where it's in alignment with yourself. Right. So if you if you have figured it out, which is really hard to do, but once you do and you can stick with it and not have it be like the way our world runs right now to be present and all the things you're talking about to be still and to leave space supercop. Right. We have so many things coming at us and and we're told to that you have to be really active out in the world of social media. And I'm just as guilty as the next person. But so it's really hard to wake up and take that one and walk past the flower and actually smell it. And it's just it it doesn't exist. It's really hard. Right. So I interrupted you when you were talking about how once you sold your company, there was through your 30s, you just felt like you were still trying to figure out how to find this this spark, this bliss, this inner peace. Right. So I guess that's where we're at now because I so rudely interrupted you.   Joe: But I want to. That's that's cool.   Chris: That's cool. Let me come back because I'd like one of the thought that kind of might help put a bow on this.   Chris: You know, this concept of what if you if you haven't kind of if you haven't if you've got to like you've made it financially yet, how does that reconcile with the experience about sharing? One way to look at it, I guess, is like Maslow's hierarchy. Right. Which at the base of the hierarchy are like food, clothing, shelter, all of those things. And then at the top is self actualization.   Chris: And in fact, about that and self transcendence, which is another category that I added to the to the in the twilight years, which is kind of little known and underreported then management textbooks. But it's an interesting concept that maybe will come later.   Chris: And and so there's no doubt that if you haven't made enough financial needs yet, then you're not going. The crisis of meaning is going to mean much less to you because you've got to cover those basic needs first. And so in some ways, it's like a physical problem, I guess, to a degree, like a crisis of meaning. But I still believe as did Maslow that if you are lucky enough to supersede the baseline financial needs and then if you don't feel like you've made it there yet, I would encourage you to reflect on if you if you really do need all of the things that you currently pay money for because you never get caught up in wrapping.   Chris: And spent a lot of money on unnecessary things. Maybe you can live on much less and then spend time instead of working to obscure things that are truly, deeply meaningful to you. And as you said, like figuring out how you can be of service to others while serving yourself as well, rather than sacrificing yourself to save others.   Chris: But at the top of Maslow's hierarchy, which is the apex of the human experience, is the self transcendence for giving yourself to. As Becca Franklin said, you've got a great quote where he says specialization is possible only as a side effect of self transcendence. So you can only become your best self by losing yourself in service to a cause greater than yourself, essentially.   Joe: Perfect. OK, so you're now when did you restore it back to the story?   Joe: So when did you get over that hump? Let's call it.   Chris: Yeah, so to be honest, like I'm still getting over, I feel like, you know, it's not going to take me. But there was one moment of kind of like a pivotal kind of, I guess, turning moment where I was at a personal development event in Hawaii. And we were asked actually Patrick Combs, I was attending one of his retreats in Hawaii and he was leading an exercise where he had us write our eulogy from the perspective of living essentially our best life from from this point forward. And it's been a really busy day. And it was the last thing at night like this. It was dark, dark outside and then back inside of us as we lay there on the on the ground and this little torch can light and to whatever would come to us in terms of how we're going to be remembered from from that point at our eulogy, having looked at our life from that point forward. And so I tried to empty my mind out. And really the only thing that I really like, I really believe that love is the universal connect, the one thing that we all share in common. And so I just wrote, Chris, touched a hundred million and I thought, I'll dream big ya know a hundred million people with love in this lifetime. And then I thought, this is my one chance to dream really big. So I added, an extra zero or zeros. So I made it like Chris touched one billion people with love in this lifetime. And then and I didn't really know exactly what they meant. I still don't really. But like, as I read it out and it will give me the opportunity to share with the rest of the group.   Chris: And as I read it out, I felt this wave of embarrassment like rush over and be like, oh my God, I made a fool of myself. Like we had a dream so big that I could possibly impact a billion people. Oh, my God. Fortunately, it was the last was the last exercise of the day. And I started back to my room and kind of like it under my pillow pretty much. And and then I woke up the next morning and I was still really grappling with the sense of shame and embarrassment of having this out. And I think it's big. And so I went for a run down to the beach and did a meditation on the beach. And then on the way back, I had to stop for a public restroom. And and I'm standing at the urinal, of all places. And I looked up on the wall and someone had drawn a love heart with wings. And it's like, oh, that's kind of weird. And then I like that. I look around the bathroom and actually someone had drawn love all over the wall so they hadn't noticed coming in. So they were expecting is like, what the hell? You know, like what what does this mean? And, you know, I grew up in like a very scientifically minded family. And so I try not to believe in woo woo stuff or synchronicities and that kind of thing in my life has been a screaming pattern recognition bias. You know, like humans, the brain is programmed to recognize things like that. And then as I reflected on it, but maybe the recognition from my brain or maybe just my desire to kind of leave or make sense of things, but I guess I chose to adopt that event as some kind of affirmation, a potential affirmation from the universe, that go all in ya know life like it was.   Chris: I let my mind go empty the night before when I had like to think about what I wanted to be remembered. And it felt like it was the source or the universe kind of speaking to me and wanting this. But I think this idea of this really is the most important thing. And I think that it's you know, I'm not sure if it's like I meditate a lot. Right. And and when I meditate, I feel what can only be described as love. And people will get that through prayer and maybe being in nature, watching a sunset, that kind of thing. But when you stop thinking in your mind goes empty, your serene, blissful, it's beautiful. And it feels to me like I can't think of a better word other than love. And so I don't know what love is, the fabric of the cosmos or the some underlying kind of fabric of human consciousness or both of those things, I'm not really sure. But there's something mystical about it. And and so I chose to adopt this as part of my story. And as I reflected on it more, I kind of thought, well, not only does I take this as an affirmation that the that I should pursue love and trying to make the world more love place. But I thought this this love with wings is an interesting motif because it love heart with wings. It's the same somewhere. It invites following.   Chris: And as I reflected on it, I thought of this Steve Jobs quote. That was one of the first videos that I developed, my kind of videos that I watched after I came home from from vacation in Bali. So my business always. Had earlier, and he has this great commencement speech at Stanford, I think, where he says this above all else, follow your heart and intuition that somehow already know who you truly want to become. And and as I reflected on that, that's like that, you know, through all of these trials and tribulations of my theories, trying to figure out who I am, how I can show up, how I can help other people, if there's one thing I can put my hand on my heart and say is that I really did follow my heart. And so and then I was on a flight. And you know how you get those quiet times on flights where you might be doing some journaling or whatever, and you just kind of get these flashes of inspiration. And and so I started to etch out what would become this framework around, like how to follow your heart and everything I learned about that. So, I mean, I did around an acronym for H.E A.R.T. H is heal and hear your hero heart and E is explore your genius, A is accept your mission,  R is rebirth yourself and T is take action and trust. And so yeah, like five modules and I really just the greatest joy of my life to try to condense down everything that I've learned over the last decade and, and try to make something beautiful out of it, out of all of that struggle. And I guess I kind of relate back to your initial question. You know, is it easier to make money or to make meaning? And then I guess of that is like, you know, what's what's more gratifying? And in my experience, you know, like this is this is brand new. And I'm actually looking for beta test people to kind of come and be guinea pigs with me. But this has been the most meaningful and interesting and validating experience of my life. Like it's the gift of stuff to everything I've learnt, really, to teach.   Joe: Yeah, that's awesome. So ultimately, you're going to I know where you're going to think of a name for for all of this or you have ideas, but we're not we're, like you said, is being transparent. This is new. And we didn't want to like for some sort of title to this, but you you had it.   Chris: Maybe it's like maybe it's like your back to your greatest destiny or I'm playing with, like, discover your destiny or something like that.   Chris: Now, one of the things that I left out is like this thing about the love and making the world more complex and following your heart is that I think like love is the language of the heart. And I think that when you follow your heart. When you follow your heart and you find the work that you feel called to do. That can be your greatest conduit, one of your greatest conduits for love, I think you create that work with the motivation of love and you serve. I think you end up serving people who who who resonate with your story and to appreciate what you've gone through and probably going for something similar. And so you have empathy for them and in their case and you want to help them. And so that feels like love to me. And so I really like your vocation can become like one of your greatest battles that you have for manifesting love. And so if you believe that, as I do, that that love is the solution for most of the world's problems, then I believe that by following your heart to find your ultimate vocation that brings you to life the most can be your your heart. Your heart knows the way to those people who you truly want to become, but also how we can create a more loving world in the process.   Joe: Yeah, and it's really interesting that I know as young adults and I've I've put up a post about this on certain Facebook groups that I'm in and I've reflected on this a lot, which is in the day and age that we're in now, there seems like we are. We're constantly trying to fix something that's broken, right, and it's usually and I'm talking individuals, right. Saying that we we get to a certain point and we realize, like you, when you sold your company, like many of us, when we hit certain points in our life that this isn't right. This doesn't feel right. It's not making me happy. All of the things that go through your head and I keep thinking, gosh, I wish we could just get to. The young adults earlier, like just this whole thing shifts from where it is here all the way, like they just take anything that any of the people that you and I know are doing or the people like Tony Robbins, the work that he does, Dean Graziosi, you know, good work Patrick's doing with Eric. If we could take all of that and just slide it earlier and just and I know that at a certain point, the young minds are not they don't have the attention span for there they are don't have the interest in it. They're not mature enough to understand it yet.   Joe: But there's got to be a point where if we took all of this and just brought it way earlier in the life span of a human and just got to young people early and said, listen, before you get to where all of the rest is, not everybody's like that. Some people just find what they were meant to do and a really young age and are happy and life is grand. I would say the majority don't. They wander around really lost for a really long time. And the only thing that they always seem to gravitate to is making money. It's all financial and just and so they go down this path and then they come to realize later in life that that didn't work. But then now we're in like repair mode, right? Instead, it's like, God, if we could just figure out a way to guide young people to saying, listen, we can tell you now that money is not the answer. It's following your heart. It's being nice to people and loving and caring and empathetic and transparent and having integrity and all of those things that that if you could learn those and navigate that, all the rest will come to you because you're deserving of it, you know. But it's just it's such a frustrating thing for me.   Chris: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it reminds me of a story I wanted my friend Raj. He has a similar kind of story, wildly successful coffee company and business empire, really at the stage. But he was looking for an oil company when he graduated college. And one of his mentors within the company was a guy who was 60 or something like that and really didn't have a huge passion for the work. But he had another interest outside of work, which was now. But it was maybe it was, I don't know, like wood work or something more textile that he wanted to do with his hands. And he was always talking to to do this when I retire. Yeah. And then and then he passed away like that at age 60 or whatever and never reached retirement. You know, for my friend Raj, that was it.   Chris: That was like that was that was all he needed to kind of be like, I'm not falling into that trap. You know, life is for the living. So. Yeah.   Chris: And then they kind of back on what started out by saying where you we could only get this information at the end to people to get younger.   Chris: If you're younger and you're listening to that's the one thing that I guess would encourage you to do as well as following your heart or maybe even kind of in tandem with that or another way to frame it or it even comes before following your, following your heart is kind of a, you know, a slightly amorphous kind of thing to say I'm cognizant of that. But I think following your curiosity is a great, great place to start. And so, like for me, having sold my real estate business and then I had no idea that I was going to end up essentially in the personal development space, you know, like where I come from in New Zealand. I've never met a life coach in my life, know what I mean?   Chris: I didn't even really register for me that that was a viable option. So for me, it took me a long time to put the two together and go, oh, my God, like, what if I could teach everybody? But what if I could teach people, for example, in a word or, you know, some light on a dark night of the soul or some of the challenges, everything I've learned how gratifying that would be for a long time to get to that place. And I would but I wouldn't have got there had I not followed my curiosity and my curiosity in the first place was for personal development content. And so I sold that business and that that watched that Steve Jobs video.   Chris: And and that was the aspect that the next several years were just a whole kind of personal development books and YouTube videos and everything I could get my hands on to try to figure out myself and and and and so following my curiosity, whatever your curiosity is, I'm read a...   Chris: I look, I had an awesome video interview with Common, the rap artist Common A...just a couple of days ago   Chris: But I was out walking my baby and he was talking about the same concepts of essentially service as being of service and finding your greatest gifts and getting them to give service to others. And he would say, you know, he started out in music because he enjoyed it.   Chris: It was for him it was therapeutic and it's cathartic. It was fun, playful. And I guess he was following his own curiosity. And the people say, follow your passion. I don't. What are you curious about? What are the books you read? What are the experiences you'd love to have? Where might you love to travel? How would you like to speak to if you have the opportunity? Follow your curiosity and so Common followed his passion for music, curiosity and music and then realize how it could benefit other people, you know, how their audience are reacting to it was obviously resonating with them and giving them an emotive experience and and giving giving the audience joy. And then ultimately the cash comes as a result of that. So that's like one of the really interesting models that I discovered along the way as well. And you can look back up that it from what I saw this one talking like I was talking about basically the the default model that we have in society for happiness essentially is wrong.   Chris: You know, it's based around Do Have Be like you think of that and like you do whatever it takes to have the stuff that you think you need houses, cars, material possessions in order to be happy. Right. But but if you flip that around a there's another interesting models, which I would advocate for, which is Be Do Have and I'll explain that essentially and be happy now and the research cutting edge cognitive psychology research actually shows that when we are happy, here are now, happiness and optimism fueled performance and achievement. So if you're interested in that, you can look up a book called The Happiness Advantage by Shawn Achor where he really dives deeply into that and finds that when get when you show up in it and a happy, optimistic state where we're trying to perform, you know, we're more open minded, we're more creative, all that stuff. So be happy now and don't put happiness or a piece on the other side of extrinsic goals. Extract the self evidence now and then find. And so then. So that's Be and then the next step is to Do so, do what you love. And if you don't know what it is you love to do yet, I would say follow that curiosity.   Chris: And when you do what you love, ultimately your as Steve Jobs says as with all matters of the heart, you'll know when you find it. And Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has a wonderful called Flow where he talks about the flow of state that that athletes get in when they're playing, that painters are in when they're painting, musicians are in when when they're making music. But also, you know, in other professional fields that are kind of elite that everyone could find themselves doing, can be employed when they're cooking or a coder is in flow when they're not coding and a designer is and flow when they're designing and people who have podcasts are probably in flow when they're in conversation. And so for that flow state is where we create point. So if you can find work that you if you can find work that brings you into flow in that flow, stay with time disappears and then you kind of lose focus or lose touch with the outside world and you're just lost in the work like that is that's when you know, you're you're on the right path and that's that work that will never feel like work. It really feels like play. And so then the final stage of this model, be happy now through the work that you love, will do the work that brings you to the flow.   Chris: And then Have and so the keeping with the Have and this model, that is the first one where you're doing whatever is necessary in order to have now you're happy and you're doing what you love and Have part kind of like follows you, magnifiers into you because you're doing your best work, which is in flow. And then eventually, sooner or later, when you can have certain degree of competence at that, what the world will reward you people will take notice. And I'll be like, holy crap like Joe's podcast is amazing and this other work that Joe does, he obviously loves doing and shows up with this immense passion. It's like so inspiring. I want to be a part of that. Like tell me how I can be one of Joe's clients, you know, and the money kind of gets magnetized to you. Becomes a by product rather than if you're going out to get the money, you're going on to do what you love and be of service and and yeah, yeah,   Joe: It's very interesting because I'm doing some work now in my own career. And part of it is the piece with Russell Bronson and and he just talks like he literally today's live webinar that we did. He literally got on there and right out of the gate, he was like, if you are here to make money, you're in the wrong place. It was like, I am here to get you to shift your mindset and to figure out what it is that you are here to do and how you are here to serve others. He goes, and when you figure that piece out, all of the rest falls into place. And it's in it's kind of like the whole thing where the universe gives you more of what you what you think about and what you are attracted to. And so if you are attracted to complaining and feeling like he woe is me and all of those things, that's what it delivers more of. Right. So if you shift it and say, listen, the more and more people I can help, the more and more love I can spread, the more and more whatever all of that goodness just it just naturally happens. Right. And then all the other things fall into place. But it's just it's really hard for us where we are in our lives again. God, if I only knew that 20 years ago or 30 or whatever, I just if that's what's really frustrating. So yeah. And I want to get back to what so what you're doing this work that you're doing and what you're about to offer to the world and present. Right? What in what form is this going to be and is it is it going to be a when you said you want beta testers, is this a course that you're going to run people through? Is, is...explain that piece of it to me.   Chris: Yeah. For sure. So I'm thinking of a 90 day program, OK, 90 days. And like the small group, you know, maybe in four or five or ten people and and basically just a donation, more or less, if you like. You know, it's not about the money, but I think if somebody pays some money, at least, you know, they'll show up in a more committed way. So whatever, whatever potentially whatever people are can afford or are comfortable with, you know, I think it's such an important material that and my passion is to get it out to whoever and not let people be hamstrung if they think they have limited financial means.   Chris: So, you know, some some very big price point. And and, yeah, I think I think a 90 day program to start with is enough to really get people pretty deeply set and the concepts and really understand all the stuff at the same level. And and then you want to go take a longer than the one year thing or even a month or whatever.   Joe: And what's the product going to look like? Is it going to be like in a Facebook group? Is it on your website? Is it some piece of software developed or basically the kind of like a mastermind where in a training environment where we'll have a small group and then just meet every week, once a week or 90 days, and then we'll have like a Facebook group? Yeah. So there are these five modules where we'll be stepping away, moving through these for scale. And er and so just real quickly, like what I mean by something which like you're familiar with The Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. Yes, so like Star Wars and every major blockbuster movie is basically written according to this format where there's a hero in there, you know, they're at home, they're in their safe, nice, warm bed, more or less like the hobbits in the shire and then some there's some catalyst and that call to adventure and they go out where they need allies and enemies and face obstacles and overcome these. And in the process, they gain the kind of awareness of self and and ultimately face their biggest fears and then come back, return home, essentially with the power to bestow upon their common man, as Joseph Campbell would put it and so it comes from all of humanity, oldest mythology and whatnot.   Chris: So Joseph Campbell wrote a book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" where he kind of discovered all of this and then Lucas was it, Lucas who did it wasn't Star Wars was one of the first to really adopt it into a major motion picture. But it's a really interesting frame sort of to do your life for.   Chris: And I guess I argue that it's not just for the movies, but I mean, there's a reason why we kind of resonate with the parents and movies that we admire their courage and and their following of their heart, really, to face their demons and ultimately return home and take a bit of vision of themselves and able to help their fellow people.   Chris: And so part of the way that a lot of work around the growth mindset and process is fixed mindset and how if you think you can if you think you can, can. And the difference between fixed and a growth mindset. And I would argue that this is, you know, viewing yourself, doing your, um as Joseph Campbell puts it, that you are the hero of your own life story. And so I believe that viewing yourself in the spy or even just playing with this concept of like viewing yourself as the hero of your own journey and that you have to face titanic challenges and surmount them, and then how can you grow and what you learn as a result of that? And how can you benefit benefit other people with what you learn as you go through this personal growth, like viewing your life through the ______ lens? I would say the ultimate growth mindset and then the H is the Hear and heal your heroic heart. And hear is what I heal is, you know, they say we can only love others as much as we love ourselves. So this is like developing self-love and really becoming more compassionate with yourself and improving your internal narrative and and and being more loving for yourself so that then when you find when you move through the process in the program and you figure out the work that you do, you'll be showing up from a place of love and then to hear your heart, you know, this is around like tapping into your inner wisdom for journaling and meditation and stuff like that, and then explore your genius and some of the stuff that really cool down a little bit around discovering your superpowers or your own zone of genius, as Gary Hendricks put it, as opposed to your zone of excellence and sense of competence and so on, which is so like separating out like what you're truly genius, that which is others activities that bring you into flow most often and do everything you can to structure your your work life around those tasks and get rid of everything that drags you out of that.   Chris: And then accepting your mission is built around something that's a rarity and a little bit around like Maslow's hierarchy and how we can only self actualization as possible, only as a side effect of self transcendence. So so to serve and truly contribute to others is how we how we could be the best selves. And we see this in our political leaders and so on. If you think of like Nelson Mandela or Gandhi, Mother Teresa or some of these people, these icons that we really admire, what do we admire about them? We admire and how much they've been of service to other people and the effect that they've had.   Chris: But it's not only political leaders, also business leaders and business leaders, for example Elon Musk said that coming from PayPal, he thought to himself , what are some of the other problems that are most likely to impact the future of humanity, not thinking what's the best way to make money? Interesting. I read an article a couple of days ago where he's just surpassed Jeff Bezos as the world's most wealthy individual you know obviously on the rise of the electric car and stuff, but everything's happening with the climate. But so, yeah, accepting your mention is about like figuring out how can you how can you tell what, A, that you might give you a life for? Ultimately, what do you care about more than you care about. What would you do even if you knew you would fail the kind of thing in a mission that is so big that you could spend the rest of your life pursuing it and still be satisfied, even if you didn't fully realize it, but contributed what's towards it and then R stands for rebirth is really just like stepping into that new identity because there's a lot, you know, people will know you as they've always known you and expect you to be, and they always thought you were kind of thing, but when you step into your life, it's great. It's worth a lot of that has to change. And so dealing with the fallout of some of those relationships that need to change and and also how to pursue the new relationships that will move forward and surround yourself with, you know, people who won't let you fail and then finally take action and trust.   Chris: So that's kind of what it sounds like to get your thesis around. Like holding each other accountable and having a part of this program will obviously have accountability groups and have a positive peer pressure that would show up. And and if you want to do not do the thing that last week you said you were going to do, that was going to move the needle for them on your most of most important projects.   Chris: And then. And then Trust and you're finally, just trusting. And I guess that's the slightly mystical thing, you know. And when I talk about the trust, I talk about that event that happened to me in Hawaii and how that invited me to trust to put aside my rational left brain scientific thinking mind and believe that just maybe, you know, the universe might be conspiring to bring great things about for people who have other intentions.   Chris: So, yes, that's it.   Joe: That's awesome. And I guess it's safe to say you're in rebirth mode, right?   Chris: Yeah, exactly. You got that? Yes.   Joe: Well, awesome. OK, so what is the website URL? I'm going to put it all on the notes, but I just want to make sure.   Chris: Yeah, yeah.   Chris: It's love work revolution so loveworkrevolution.co.   Chris: And so the word revolution is an interesting one to talk about how I think by following your heart you can find the work that you love and that will bring more love into the world. And then the revolution piece is Gallup, which is a research institute there in the States that are really a massive survey where they interviewed hundreds of thousands of people and found that I think it was. Eighty seven percent could be slightly wrong. And that's in the 80s, 80 something percent of people are either disengaged or actively disengaged in their work. So there's so many that's a disaster not only for the personal suffering of all those people who have to show up for work that they hate every day. But the the untapped human potential, that's just going to waste because people are sitting there, like, not really giving a crap about what they do. And and and at the same time, you know, humanity faces all these immense difficulties and challenges that we face globally around like climate change and poverty and all these really meaningful causes that people could engage with. And that's what we're languishing doing so we don't care about. And Malcolm Gladwell in his book "Tipping Point", found that there's a there's a kind of a magic number around like 20 percent. Like when 20 percent of people latch onto an idea, then there is a tipping point it can spread for the rest of the community.   Chris: So, I mean, the margin of people who are disengaged in their work in the high 80s and the number of people who need to be defined to do what they love in order to create a revolution or a tipping point, and where we can see a sea change, where it's written for the rest of the population is around 20 percent.   Chris: So there's only about six percent of people that we have to move to find work that they love, an create a more loving world. So that's why I loveworkrevolution.co. So co   Joe: Ok, cool. So I'll put that in the show notes if someone wants to become a part of this, what is the best way for them to get in touch with you   Chris: Yeah just shoot me an email, it's Chris, C H R I S at loveworkrevolution.co    Joe: Perfect, awesome! Ok, and then I'll get all of this in the show notes. And I wish you luck with this. I know this this is it for me. I can tell how it comes out of you. I see your eyes light up and you just you just know. Right, that this is what you've wanted to do. And this is this, this speaks to you, so and I think it's going to be amazing. I'm glad that you've decided to do this. And I look forward to seeing this blossom and help a lot of people out there.   Chris: Thank you Joe like so much today. Today's been a big deal for me, as mentioned, this is my first podcast interview talking about this stuff. So I just really appreciate you giving me space and letting me connect with the audience. And as you mentioned, you know, you can tell what this is it for me. And it really is. You know, this is the last 10 years of my life kind of accumulating and coming full circle and to, you know, in my way of making meaning and purpose and sense out of all of the struggle of the last 10 years. So needless to say, I am deeply passionate about this and intend to do this for a very long time. And so I look forward to several years from now when, you know, you and I can catch up and have a beer together and say, hey, remember that time I was, I was on my first ever podcast with you. So I really appreciate you having me, man. Thank you.   Joe: Yeah, it's absolutely my pleasure. Glad to be here in the beginning of all this will actually get to see it, turn into something great. And I'm looking forward to it. So, Chris, thank you so much for taking the time. I know it's late there in Barcelona. It's probably been a long day for you. And it was really nice to talk with you. And I was super, super excited about this for you. And again, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.   Chris: Thank you. Peace and love Joe and to your audience, thanks for listening.   Joe: Yeah, OK. We'll talk soon. Thank you.   Chris: All right. Bye for now...

Welcome to Gear Talk: The Löw Tide Böyz and Swimrun Labs review show!In this episode, the gang shares their holiday gift ideas for the Swimrunners in your lives…or just yourself.Before we get into that, we have some gear updates.Gear UpdatesJust a few short gear updates this week.Annie tried out the Seavenger SeaSnug socks during a walk in her neighborhood and got a blister on her foot. She pretty decided not to even try them on a run after that. (Sorry Brooke!)Chris used the SurfEars 3.0 ear plugs during Ödyssey Swimrun Austin and they worked beautifully. Chipper could rest assured that Chris could hear him even though Chris may have been ignoring him.High Gear, Low GearNew segment alert!!! In this new segment, the crew will break down what gear they wore at their latest race and give their High and Low rankings on what worked well and what didn’t work so great. Chipper and Chris recently raced Ödyssey Swimrun Austin and shared their kit setup and what they liked/didn’t like.Chipper’s Swimrun Kit:Speedo Vanquisher 2.0 gogglesArk Sports ORNO 2Ark Sports Kangaroo topRegular sport underwearSwiftwick Aspire 12 socksHoka One One Speedgoat EVO shoesArk Sports Keel+ (Lasso Mount)Ark Sports Blade Swim Paddles (Medium)High Gear award: The Keel+ worked perfectly and Chipper had no issues whatsoever. Low Gear award: Chipper thought that he had his shoes dialed in but during the race it felt like the uppers of the shoes felt a little stretched out and his foot was moving around in the shoe.Chris’s Kit:Aqua Sphere Kaiman gogglesArk Sports VIGGArk Sports Kangaroo topSwiftwick Aspire 12 socksSalomon Slab Amphib shoesArk Sports Keel+ (Simple loop waist mount)Roka Swim Paddles (Medium)Ultimate Direction waist belt (Discontinued)High Gear award: Pretty obvious here, but Chris thought that the Ark Sports VIGG was the perfect wetsuit for the air and water temperature in Texas.Low Gear award: Chris thought that the Ultimate Direction waist belt was less essential this race because of the Kangaroo top from a storage perspective and it was basically being used to store the compression bandage and attach the tether. Holiday Gift Guide for SwimrunnersNow for the main event! The gang broke our ideas for cool gifts into three categories to take into account different budgets.Stocking Stuffer/White Elephant Gift Level (Under $30ish)Annie:  Ödyssey Swimrun hand-Thrown, Custom Glazed Coffee Mug ($30)Brooke: Zoggs Predator Next Gen Swim goggles ($19.99)Chipper: Swim Stretch/Bands ($15.99)Chris:  Swiftwick Aspire Socks ($14.99-29.99 depending on sock height)“Nice” Gift Level (Under $100)Annie: NU Orza Pull Buoy ($50)Brooke: Wild Swimrun Annual Club Membership ($58)Chipper: NU Lapa Bra ($60)/NU Lapa Shirt ($90)Chris: SurfEars 3.0 Ear Plugs ($59.95)Trying to Impress/In the Doghouse/No Limit (No $ Limit)Annie: “Year of Swimrun” (Price Unknown; Entry to either Orcas Island or Casco Bay Swimruns, Two full Swimrun kits (a beginner kit and an intermediate kit, training camp weekend in Europe with Wild Swimrun, and private coaching by Swimrunner John Stevens)Brooke: Ödyssey Orcas Island Long Course Swimrun Race Entry ($450-$650 depending on when you register)Chipper: Ark Sports VIGG ($430)Chris: All expenses paid trip to ÖTILLÖ Malta (Flights: ~$2,000; Hotel: ~$1,000; Food/drink: ~$500; Race entry: ~$650)Closing ThoughtsThat’s our best thinking on what to get to that special Swimrunner in your life. If you’re on the fence about what to get, giving the gift of race entries is a great way to support race directors and help keep the sport of Swimrun growing in the US and elsewhere. We hope that everyone has a great Thanksgiving holiday and remember to stay safe, wear a mask, and all that.That’s it for this week’s Gear Talk show. If you are enjoying the Löw Tide Böyz, please be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast player. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and Google Podcast. You can also follow our meme page on Instagram and on Twitter. Email us at lowtideboyz@gmail.com with any feedback, suggestions, and/or meme suggestions. Finally, you can also support us on Patreon…if you feel so inclined. 

Bree and Chris welcome lawyer well-being pioneer Anne Brafford to the podcast, best known for her roles as author of Positive Professionals, co-chair of the ABA Law Practice Division’s Attorney Well-Being Committee, editor-in-chief and co-author of the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being’s report The Path to Lawyer Well-Being: Practical Recommendations for Positive Change, author of the ABA’s widely distributed Well-Being Toolkit for Lawyers and Legal Employers and founder and principal organizer of Lawyer Well-Being Week, an annual event occurring every May. Transcript: CHRIS NEWBOLD:Welcome to the Path to Lawyer Well-Being, a podcast series sponsored by the National Task Force on Lawyer Well-Being, where we talk to cool people doing awesome work in the lawyer well-being space. I'm here with my cohost, Bree Buchanan.BREE BUCHANAN:Hey, Chris.CHRIS:And we're here with really one of the pioneers in our well-being space. It is always, I think, an honor to be the first guest of any podcast series and we are obviously thrilled to have Anne Brafford here with us. Bree, do you want to go ahead and kind of do a quick introduction of Anne, a dear friend of ours and again, somebody who's been doing incredible work on behalf of our profession.BREE:Absolutely. I'm delighted to introduce Anne Brafford, Anne, who is somebody I admire and who I genuinely like and I know that whenever I'm going to have a conversation with Anne, I will do it with a smile on my face. So, that goes for this podcast today too. Anne, thanks so much for being here today.BREE:So, Anne, just a little bit about her background, she started out in big law and spent some time there and then made a pivot over the course of her career and ended up going to the University of Pennsylvania and pursuing a master's in applied positive psychology and I can't wait to hear Anne talk a little bit about what is this positive psychology business.BREE:She has been a very prolific writer. She has published a book entitled, Positive Professionals. She's also been very involved in the lawyer well-being movement and has been a pivotal person. She's somebody when I think about the work that the National Task Force has done. But for her, we would not be where we are truly. She stepped into the position of editor in chief for the National Task Force Report and took seven or eight writing groups, very disparate styles and pulled it all together and added all the research and really made the report in many ways the incredibly preeminent document on lawyer well-being. And so, we owe so much to her.BREE:She's gone on to produce the ABA's Well-Being Toolkit, which is an open source document that has been downloaded and used by thousands. So, I don't want to just take all the fun away, Anne. So, I want to give people an opportunity to hear from you.BREE:One question we're asking everybody that's our guest, tell us what brought you to the lawyer well-being space. When I look at your bio, I see that pivot from big law over to pursuing that master's. Tell us a little bit about that, if you would.ANNE BRAFFORD:Yeah, good question. And thanks so much for having me as the first guest on the new podcast. And Bree, I always love speaking with you. And it leaves a smile on my face as well. So, this should be fun.ANNE:So, how I got into well-being, it's a long story that I'll try to make short. But it started as far back as I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 11 years old. That's when I first started saying I wanted to be a lawyer. And unlike so many of us, my childhood dreams came true. I actually kept the dream up, went to law school, which was pretty odd because I was the first kid in my family to even go to college, let alone law school.ANNE:So, when I got my law degree, it was really just one of the happiest and most proudest days of my life. And then I got a judicial clerkship and then I got this great job at Morgan Lewis Equity Partner. It was like, on the outside, everything looked really successful, and it was. I was very proud of my accomplishments.ANNE:But as I began getting a little bit older, I started questioning whether this was all that there was. Was I kind of living up to my 11-year-old dreams of what it was to be a lawyer, which is sort of impossible to do. But I kept asking whether is this all that I'm going to do in my one short life.ANNE:And so, really, it began to be a deterioration of meaningfulness for me. I became a lawyer because I wanted to make the world a better place. And I was an employment lawyer. As an employment litigator on behalf of defendants and I never felt bad about what I did. I thought I was protecting a law that really meant a lot to me, but wasn't enough.ANNE:And eventually, I couldn't answer yes anymore. And so, I ended up applying to get a master's of applied positive psychology from Penn while I was still practicing law thinking I was going to fix myself or fix my culture. I was going to fix something, so I could stay because I wasn't leaving.ANNE:But as I got more into it, I just started feeling a pull that I could either stay in law and kind of do this other well-being stuff part time or I could leave and really potentially make a bigger contribution to the legal profession by helping to make it a place where people have a whole kind of variety of backgrounds and interests can stay and be happy and thrive.ANNE:And so, I made a really hard decision of leaving law in 2014. And I kind of liken it to it was like tearing my arm off. I mean, it was a really hard decision.BREE:I'm sure.ANNE:Yeah. And then I resigned from my partnership position in the firm and then almost immediately started my PhD program in organizational psychology, which I'm still in the middle of. And so now, I focus entirely on the legal profession. But the individual organizationally, institutionally have really helping to use science, apply science to help make the profession, help it live up to its potential to be a place where lawyers can really feel like they're doing something good for society and also thrive themselves. And so, I didn't really leave the law. I'm contributing to the law in a different way now.BREE:I love that you've verbed thriving. That's great, thriving.CHRIS:Yeah. And I think it would be helpful for our listeners to, you've now been for the better part of five, six years, but even before that, what would be your assessment of kind of what the current state of lawyer well-being is. We know that the report was released three or four years ago, right? We think that that was a significant catalyst and a national discussion. It feels like we've been making progress but I just be curious on your current assessment of where we're at and what you think is on the horizon in terms of where we need to go.ANNE:Yeah, good question. I think it's, for me, I feel like it's a really exciting time to be in this area right now. And I've had this conversation with Bree as well. I think people who have been doing well-being legal profession for a while are feeling like there's movement now. We're starting to make progress in a way that's really exciting.ANNE:And I do think the National Task Force's report that came out in 2017 was a catalyst for that, that there already was so much talk and action going on in kind of small cells and that the report then really catalyzed thinking organizations around this idea of well-being.ANNE:And now, I don't think you can talk to a firm or a lawyer who hasn't thought in some way about your well-being and that was not true. When I was growing up as an associate, well-being wasn't talked about really at all. And it was sort of considered, it's your problem not mine, where I think now organizations are getting more onboard and saying, this is really a team effort that we are responsible to each other for this.ANNE:So, I think that's great progress. I think we're still at the very beginning though. I think, well, where I'm hoping to see the evolution will go to is from this individual level, which is really where the movement is primarily focused now. So, things like stress relief, meditation, resilience, these more individually focused programs, nutrition, physical fitness. These are a lot of the things that I see that firms are doing and I see at least around and that's fantastic. It's a great place to start. And it's probably the easiest place to start.BREE:Right, absolutely.ANNE:But I think, yeah, the next part of our evolution needs to be more organizationally where and I think firms are starting ... They're sort of at the beginning of that now. I'm seeing this as more widescale culture change that if we really want to promote well-being, we have to seriously look at the cultures that are recreating the ill health that we're seeing in lawyers, like what about the way that law firms, and I come from a law firm background, but when I say law firms, I really mean all kinds of legal employers. But what are they doing and not doing to support well-being and seriously, looking at their policies and practices. And how can we change those.ANNE:And I think then we also need to evolve to more of an institutional level. Or people raise their eyebrows when I say it, but even things about how our court system is run, how judges treat lawyers, how clients, inhouse clients treat their outside lawyers and how the outside lawyers treat their clients.ANNE:I was a litigator myself thinking about the judges, and multiple times and judges deny lawyers' request to move something because they had a vacation or they weren't feeling well, or judges just being disrespectful. And lawyers sometimes being disrespectful to judges as well.ANNE:But I do think it's an institutional wide challenge of how can we rethink our system so that lawyers can still be their best and do their best for their clients, but also be well themselves. And I think we've made great progress, but we have a long way to go.BREE:No kidding. Yeah. And I also talk a lot about the fact that it's not just individual lawyers that we're trying to get to change the way they go about their work, but it's the culture change, and that's really hard. And so, I know that when we were writing the report, there was discussion about what are sort of the levers of the legal system that we can push to try and bring about some shifts to this, and particularly around, you've talked about with legal employers. And I know that you currently go out and speak to major law firms on these topics and what they can do differently. Can you give us some examples of what a law firm, a midsize or large law firm could do to bring about some culture change so that well-being is prioritized?ANNE:Yeah, I think the first place for organizations to start, and I actually think it might be the number one recommendation the National Task Force Report, number one or number two, but it's about leaders. And I truly believe this. And my book that you mentioned when you're introducing me, Positive Professionals, that's really what it's focused on, leaders and law firms.ANNE:And by leaders, I mean, partners and anyone who is responsible for supporting and influencing others. And I think a lot of partners don't actually think of themselves as leaders if they don't have a formal leadership position, but they really are because they have such an impact on other people.ANNE:And the organizational science part of this shows that leaders really are the creators of culture. They are the most important lever when we talk about creating cultures and changing cultures. And so, often when I talk to firms, what I'm talking about is focused on partners and how they interact with associates. So, many of our firms, although this is changing, but many of our firms have not thought about doing any kind of sort of leadership development with their aspiring partners and their current partners. And so, we think there's many partners that want to be better, want to do better, but just have never had the skills, tools or training to do so.ANNE:And I so I think that is the first place to start of really talking to the partners about how their own kind of supervisory skills, but also with their role modeling to the associates and to not just associates, the staff and everyone around them that you can come out with the best well-being policy and your professional development people and your well-being director can have really good words to say. But if the partners aren't doing it, that's what everyone else is going to follow because they're what staff and associates and all the other lawyers, they want to do well. And so, they look to the partners to know what that looks like.ANNE:So, if say they see partners that are not sleeping themselves, that are typing emails in the middle of the night, that aren't taking vacation, that are rude to others, like that's the pattern that they're going to follow.BREE:Absolutely.ANNE:And so, it's one of the things that I always underscore when I'm talking to partners is that everyone is watching you very closely. The higher you get up into an organizational hierarchy, the more people are watching you, both for what is the value system here and what do you think of me.BREE:Right.ANNE:And so, although you might not think of yourself as any different, oh, I'm still the same Anne Brafford, I just have a new partner title, like nope, you're actually different because people are treating you differently, and your behavior has a much bigger impact on them both for their own well-being and for them watching what's valued.ANNE:And so, I think there are other levers, but I think that one is so important and such a challenge, that that's where we should just be focusing for a while.CHRIS:Anne, are you optimistic that the cultural elements that position those leaders to move the profession forward is going in the right direction, the wrong direction or there's generational things that are in play, right? There's societal factors in play. It certainly feels like there's more willingness for folks to be vulnerable, which is a probably a driver that could be really helpful in culture shifts within the professions. I'm just kind of curious on your outlook of how optimistic are you? And what do you think are the kind of the underlying drivers that could either accelerate or hinder our ability to engineer this shift?ANNE:I think I'm always optimistic.CHRIS:We know that of you.ANNE:But I would say that my experience is that organizations are still all over the map. I would say like the ABA has come out with a wonderful ABA Well-Being Pledge, where many organizations, especially law firms have signed up saying that they're going to really commit themselves to lawyer well-being.ANNE:And I would say, even within that group who have made a public commitment, they're all over the map, that some of them, it's nice window dressing, but everyone else is doing it. So, we need to do it to show that we care about well-being.ANNE:There's others that I would say really are trying to figure this out. So, I think that at least now they're interested and asking questions, even the ones that just have it as window dressing, that's progress. It's better than what it was before. Once you start making public statements about your commitment, you're much more likely to start taking action because people are going to start questioning you. And you also want to be consistent with your public statements.ANNE:So, I think I am optimistic, but I think there are many obstacles to getting to where we want to go. Just our billable hour system, which is going to take a really long time to change, is everyone knows it's a problem. I don't know that you could find a single law firm leader that says they like the billable hour structure, but just no one has found a way to change it yet.BREE:Anne, I think that you're a heretic for saying that, I mean. I mean, to go ahead and call it out, I get up and talk. And I usually don't do this in a big room because I'm just afraid what's going to happen but really, if I can get around to it, the billable hours, the 800, 8,000 pound gorilla in the room until we have some shift with that, it's going to be a hard time to really change culture.ANNE:It is and I'm with you. I don't often talk about it in large rooms. I talk about it in small rooms, but I will also say that the science on it, on number of hours worked is really interesting. So, there was a big study in 2014 led by Larry Krieger on what makes lawyers happy? Let's stop talking about only what makes them sad. So, what makes lawyers happy.ANNE:And their study found that number of hours alone was not related to well-being or happiness, but billable hours work were. The more that billable hours rose, the less happy that people became. So, you could have two lawyers working the same number of hours but have different levels of happiness based on whether one felt like they were doing it freely and autonomously because it was their own choice versus feeling like they were forced to because of billable hours.ANNE:So, there's this idea of a basic human need that we have is autonomy. And it supports intrinsic motivation, like am I doing this because I enjoy it, because it's my choice to be doing it. And it's highly related to happiness and energy and all sorts of well-being that we care about. And so, it's not just that.ANNE:I think when people think about billable hours, it's often, oh, because we're being overworked. And yes, there is a lot of overwork in the profession. That's absolutely true. But there's also it's just harmful cultures that it's [crosstalk 00:19:04] worst.BREE:Yeah. What are you billing your time doing, which can be really mind numbing and it gets back to that meaning piece.ANNE:Yeah. And do I feel like I'm just making up hours because I have to. Am I having to find work when I really need to go take a job just because I need billable hours rather than because I'm so engaged in what I'm doing. So, I think billable hours is a challenge for a number of problems. But firms tend to be extremely competitive. And when you get to the partnership level, the way compensation works, there's all kinds of issues. I think the billable hours is just kind of the tip of the iceberg. But I do think there are a number of the ways that have just been standard practice within the legal profession that are posing obstacles that they're going to be hard to change, but again, I'm ready remain optimistic. It's just not going to happen overnight.BREE:Yeah, and I just want to commend everybody, the study that Anne just mentioned, it's called What Makes Lawyers Happy by Professor Larry Krieger, and it's really a great piece of work and maybe we can get Larry on the podcast.CHRIS:Yeah. It's probably a good time to take a quick break here from one of our sponsors. What a great conversation. And again, thank you for being here. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. —Your law firm is worth protecting. And so is your time. ALPS has the quickest application for legal malpractice insurance out there. Apply, see rates and bind coverage – all in about 20 minutes. Being a lawyer is hard. Our new online app is easy. Apply now at applyonline.alpsnet.com—BREE:Welcome back, everybody. We have Anne Brafford with us today, who is the founder and owner of Aspire and also has been a pivotal leader in the National Task Force and lawyer well-being movement across the country. And one of the things we're going to talk about with Anne in this part of the presentation is about her pivotal role as being a founder of Lawyer Well-Being Week.BREE:And Chris is going to talk to her about that in just a minute but Anne, really one of the reasons I wanted you to be our first guest is that you can really speak to a foundational component of our work, which is how we defined well-being. And in fact, I remember when we were writing, you, as the editor in chief, kept pulling us back to, okay, we need to define these terms. We need to substantiate what we're saying with data and studies and all of the 200 plus whatever footnotes that were in the report and really tying us back to science. So, could you talk a little bit about how we came about to define lawyer well-being? What does that mean?ANNE:Yes, so this was set out in the report. We had a couple of pages of just saying, okay, we're all wanting to talk about lawyer well-being, let's talk about what we mean. And I need to give a shout out to Courtney Wylie and Patrick Krill, the three of us are the ones who really did the research and debated with each other and then offered it up, proposed it to the whole National Task Force for acceptance.ANNE:But what we did initially was to look at what other organizations were doing, both like corporate organizations and also organizations like the World Health Organization and other large organizations and how they were defining well-being and how they were approaching it.ANNE:And the first thing that was obvious is that this was a multidimensional concept. It's not binary, you're well, you're not well. It's a continuum and has lots of different dimensions. And the other thing that the World Health Organization agreed with, thankfully, was that it was, well-being isn't just the absence of illness. It's also the presence of full well-being.ANNE:And Bree, you'll recall that I wasn't only harping about the evidence, I also was always wanting to remind us to not only focus on the absence of illness in our report. And understandably, that's where a lot of people tend to focus because that's important of when people's lives are really being harmed and ruined by alcohol use disorders and mental health. You want to focus there on just helping those people get better.ANNE:But there's so many lawyers in the profession that although they don't have a diagnosable illness, they're not fully well. And so, we wanted to capture the full continuum of well-being and all of lawyers no matter kind of where they were in the continuum. And so, that's how we define well-being of really making sure the first thing we noted is just like the World Health Organization, we are defining this to mean both sides of this, curing illness and also promoting full well-being and then the multidimensional concept of this involves both mental health, intellectual health, physical health, of all the different areas of our lives. These work synergy synergistically to make us fully well.ANNE:And then when you look at one of the big dimensions that is important to lawyers, all of them are, but it's occupational health. As lawyers, are we fully well and we define that. And that's an area where I have focused more on lately, like what do we really mean? And how do we measure it? And is it just again, like so many people will focus on things like burnout or depression, but what else is it?ANNE:If we're looking at optimal functioning, what we want to look at is yes, we want the absence of illness, but we also want things like engagement, job satisfaction, high performance, low turnover intentions, like people who actually want to stay and thrive here.ANNE:So, I think even just getting into each dimension, there's more that we need to understand and figure out how to measure so that we know whether we're making progress or not. But that's basically the gist.CHRIS:One of the pages that I'll refer to our listeners to is page nine of the report, which I think has just a wonderful graphic of the holistic dimensions that I think you cite, the emotional well-being, the occupational well-being, intellectual, spiritual, physical, social. And I'm curious and just because of how much scientific research that you've done in your work on the occupational side, you've done some work as part of your master's program on building the positive law firm. And what does some of the research kind of say out there with respect to that part of the well-being definition that I think that you're spending considerable amount of time really waiting into?ANNE:Yeah, so my master's capstone was on building the positive law firm. And then that was further expanded in my book, Positive Professionals. And there's a lot of dimensions to that. The first thing I already covered, which is the importance of good leaders because they create culture.ANNE:I think that one of the other things that it's so important in the legal profession that gets missed is that working hard isn't the problem. That people who are highly engaged and love their work, they work hard and they work a lot of hours, but failing to take time to recover, that's when the wheels can start coming off.ANNE:And so, I don't think that there's so much focus on lawyers work too hard. I think we should just turn it and say lawyers need to recover. Good lawyers are going to work hard. Anyone who loves what they do and are passionate about what they do are going to work a lot of hours. But thinking about how we recover and there's a whole body of research just on what are the best ways to recover.ANNE:And I talk about it a little bit in my book, but it's things like just sitting on a sofa and watching TV is not actually the best way to recover and actually conserve energy. So, one of the best things for lawyers, people who are very cognitively invested in their work, so lots of brain power, one of the best ways to recover is actually physical activity. It's very engaging. It makes your mind come off your work. And also, just physical movement is really good for both our brains and our bodies.ANNE:And the disengagement from work is a really important component of recovery, of finding something that will engage your attention. So, thinking about what are called mastery activities, so art, music, sewing, knitting, anything that will fully absorb your attention is a really good and important activity for recovery because it helps you disconnect a little bit from work and also has other sorts of great benefits.ANNE:And I don't think we can talk about recovery without talking about the importance of sleep, which I do think is a challenge. When I was a lawyer at my firm, it was honestly like people would sort of be competitive about how little sleep they have had for the week. And that's toxic. Those kinds of things have to change.BREE:Yeah, and I talk about that when I go out and speak to new lawyers and just talking to them about the importance of sleep and how everything that you need to do as a lawyer is not going to be online if you're not sleeping and there's no honor in bragging about being powered by Red Bull. You're not going to get the best work product.ANNE:I was one of those people, like I'm embarrassed by some of the things. Guys, if you would know me back then, some of the things that came out of my mouth ... I was one of those people. So, I totally get it. It is hard to change. I'm still recovering on that whole sleep is good sort of thing. And I read all the science, like I'm absolutely convinced, but there's just this draw of I have to get more done. So, sleep is a really important thing to work on in our organizational cultures.CHRIS:Let's spend a couple of minutes in talking about something that in your capacity as a leader of the ABA's Law Practice Division's Attorney Well-Being committee, you kind of hatched an idea knowing that we needed to continue to keep this issue front and center and that was Lawyer Well-Being Week, which we just enjoyed.CHRIS:Anne, I just love your perspective on why you felt like that week was so important to sustain awareness of this particular issue, what will you ultimately learn from Lawyer Well-Being Week in terms of the amount of activity, which I think was enormous and encouraging and why it's so important that we continue to keep this issue front and center?ANNE:Yeah, so, Lawyer Well-Being Week had been on my mind for several years and very excited that it finally came together. And there were a number of reasons why I thought it was important. One was that there were so many people that wanted to contribute in some way but didn't know how. And so, I wanted to create one event that was big enough and diverse enough for a lot of different people to contribute.ANNE:And then second is just what you said, Chris, of keeping attention this important topic that we've all seen kind of fads come and go in the legal profession that something is there's so much energy and attention around it for a couple of years and then we move on to the next thing.ANNE:And this well-being just can't be one of those things. We have to sustain this lawyer. Well-being is too important for it just become another fad. And so, creating an annual event to really focus attention around the idea, keep attention on it, create a time and space for more innovation, discussion around it, firms get to see what other firms are doing just based on social media and by communicating with each other.ANNE:And so, we had the first Well-Being Week was just this last May. Unexpectedly, we had a global pandemic occur. And we had to pivot pretty quickly. Firms and other organizations have been planning some really cool in-person events that hopefully they'll still be able to do next year, but everything had to go remote.ANNE:And I will say I was pretty disappointed. A lot of people were pretty disappointed. But in the end, I think the silver lining was that people were even more open to the idea of needing to care about well-being in the middle of this really difficult time.ANNE:So, although we couldn't do a lot of the programming that we wanted, it may have even been better in that people were so much more open to this message than they might otherwise have been. And so, there was lots of engagement involvement by bar associations, law firms, in-house departments because I think everyone has become interested in well-being but also they were looking for stuff to get out to their lawyers during this time that they knew a lot of people were struggling.ANNE:And I do hope it continues to be absolutely raising awareness. But I also really emphasize innovation of really thinking about how do we move this forward. The meditation sessions and resilience sessions are really important, but how can we push Lawyer Well-Being Week to get organizations to think more culturally and institutionally as well.ANNE:And I've gotten very positive feedback about it. And so, we're hoping that it continues and that it will be an annual event for many years and that we just keep making it better and better and find even better ways to serve the profession.BREE:Absolutely. And it's definitely a priority for the National Task Force for 2021. So, let's hope we can get together and enjoy that in person.BREE:Anne, because you're really are, and I mean this, and it's complimentary, but I really mean it, you are a visionary and a thought leader in the space. And so, I'm going to push you a little bit to think about how do we know that lawyer well-being is done? It's fixed. We can check that box. I mean, when we sat in the room, the original founders in 2016, we talked about that this is a project that will take at least 10 years because we had a sense that it was a really a lot of heavy lifting. But we didn't really break it down to what would the world look like?CHRIS:Yeah. What does success look like?BREE:Yeah, right, Chris, what does success look like in the lawyer well-being?CHRIS:You're a metrics person, too, so, this is even better.ANNE:Yeah. So, I actually think those were two different questions. And I think what does success look like is a different question than when will we be done, because I don't think we'll ever be done.CHRIS:That's right.ANNE:Because the profession will continue to evolve. The world will continue to evolve. People's values will continue to evolve. And so, what lawyer well-being means and how we get there will be a forever project.ANNE:But the urgency that created the National Task Force Report had a lot to do with ill being, which was the statistics that got all of our attention on the level of alcohol use disorders and mental health disorders. And so, alleviating that I think is job one.ANNE:And how do we know that we've succeeded? I've thought a lot about that just with respect to Lawyer Well-Being Week, how do we know we succeeded. And I think like one, more simple one is, have we raised awareness about the importance of this issue? And how would we measure that.ANNE:But then, have we decrease the incidence of alcohol use disorders and raised the incidence of people's willingness to seek help? And I think no organization yet has been doing broad scale regular surveying to measure that, for a lot of reasons.ANNE:But I do think like that those would be the kinds of measures that I would want to look at first because those are the things that are potentially ruining people's lives. And these aren't mutually exclusive. But then also looking at the more thriving aspects of well-being or do we have high job satisfaction, high engagement? Do people feel that their work is meaningful? Those kinds of things which there's measures for all of that.ANNE:So, I think those things are hard to get out. That's costly to do all those things. But I do think that's how I would measure it. But I don't want to undermine the importance of our people realizing that this is important, like have we got people's attention. And I think, on that score, we've made incredible progress.CHRIS:Yeah.ANNE:Whether we've made a dent yet in alcohol use disorders and mental health, I'm not sure but we have to have that first level of awareness before we get to the next and then next, are we getting to full thriving, are organizational cultures fixed or institution? I'm not sure what those measures are yet, but I think that's a longer way off.CHRIS:Yeah, the full thriving I think is really an interesting component because again, the opportunity for folks to pursue a legal career and find personal and professional satisfaction, so many of I think of our colleagues ultimately will find that they may have made a wrong decision.CHRIS:And one of the questions that I ask oftentimes when I get up the podium at a regional or a state bar gathering is, would you recommend that if your son or daughter or one of their close friends came to you and said, "Should I go to law school?" That generally the answer is a little startling of a lot of people saying no. And to me, that says something about the systemic nature of problems that people can't maybe find what they are actually looking for or there's a false sense of expectation on what they thought it would be like, versus what it ultimately is.ANNE:Yeah, I think it's all those things. Even though I've left law, I would actually say yes, go to law school. There are so many great things about being a lawyer, but also stay true to the reason that you're going to law school.ANNE:That Larry Krieger, who we mentioned earlier has done on work on the evolution of values for law students throughout law school. And what he finds is that law school culture is channeled lawyers toward, well, the brightest and best go to the big firms. And that's great. There are lots of great opportunities at big firms and if that's the right fit, do that.ANNE:But there are other people like maybe me, that when I had a different value system but I wanted to do what the best kids were doing.CHRIS:Yeah.ANNE:And so, I was actually going to be a prosecutor and was looking for internships with prosecutor's offices, and a professor came to me and said, "What are you doing? You have good grades, you should go to a big firm." And I'm like, "Why would I do that?" I said, "That's not what I wanted to do when I came to law school." And he said, "You can always go from a big firm to a prosecutor's office, but you can't do the reverse. So, just go try it."ANNE:And so, I did. And I got into employment law, which I really liked, it was super interesting. And then you just get carried away with like, whatever the next thing is, I'm going to get that, I'm an achiever like so many lawyers are.ANNE:So, I do think like, yes, be a lawyer. There are so many great things about being a lawyer. It's super interesting work. You can make a positive impact, but stay in the right lane. Do what you think you'll love in 20 years and not just what seems prestigious right now.CHRIS:Yeah. Well, Anne, in our last question that I wanted to pose to you is one of the things that we're so excited about is the growing army of folks who are passionate about this issue. And this podcast was developed for those particular folks who are leading state task forces, working on subcommittees at the state and local level. Just be curious on your words of wisdom as you get to kind of address an army of well-being advocates across the country, any thoughts about just this fight, this culture shift, any recommendations or motivational words to really an incredible growing number of people who are passionate about this issue?ANNE:Well, get involved in Lawyer Well-Being Week. And part of resilience is anticipating failure along the way and figuring out when you face those failures, what are the 10 or 20 different ways that you're going to get around those obstacles?ANNE:And I think that that doesn't sound very inspiring, expect failure. I think it's absolutely important to the cause that we're undertaking because there are so many obstacles. But it's so important. So, expect that this is a long road. Things aren't going to change tomorrow and really think about what those obstacles are. And when you have a failure, don't feel like a failure, that think of the 20 different ways that you can get around whatever that obstacle is.ANNE:And that's how I've approached it, that when I have a door closed or hear a no, I'm going different ways to get to my yes, maybe not as easily as or as quickly as I wanted. But this is a long game, this isn't a short game. And so, just keep at it and really engage, get connected with people who feel as passionate as you do so that we can all help keep our energy up.BREE:I want to point out to everybody, we've been talking about Lawyer Well-Being Week and if you want to learn more about that, go to the National Task Force website, which is lawyerwellbeing.net. And all of the information, the great materials and worksheets and ideas for well-being is still up there. And it's applicable throughout the year. And so, I'm hoping people will use that.CHRIS:Anne, thank you so much again for your leadership, for your inspiration, for taking risks in your personal life to become a leader in our movement, for the work that you're doing on the science side of well-being. I mean, we are truly fortunate to have you amongst us and being a leader in our movement. So, thank you for being our first podcast guest.BREE:Thank you.CHRIS:Really cool. And we will be back with the Path to Lawyer Well-Being podcast in a couple weeks. Again, our goal is to do probably two a month, where we'll bring more great guests like Anne into the fold and talk about specific areas of lawyer well-being. So, for me, signing off. Bree, any final closing thoughts?BREE:Just a delight to get to spend time with you, Anne, as always. Thanks so much.ANNE:Yeah. Thanks for having me.CHRIS:All right. Thank you. 

Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 1) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 2) - Chris and Cindy BeallRebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Part 3) - Chris and Cindy BeallFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Desperate for Freedom Guest:                         Chris & Cindy Beall                                      From the series:       Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New (Day 1 of 3)                     Bob: Chris Beall had a secret and it came to a point where he realized as long as he kept his secret a secret—it was affecting his marriage and his spiritual life.  Chris: All the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. There's something about bringing it into the light—confessing it to another person and praying for each other—that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 28th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We'll learn about Chris Beall's secret today—and how it almost destroyed his marriage. Stay with us. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  We have a couple with us today who—some of our listeners will recognize them because their story. They've shared it on FamilyLife Today before. It's been shared as a part of The Stepping Up® Video Series. It's a great story of beauty coming from ashes. Dennis: It is indeed. We have the author of the book Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New - Cindy Beall. Cindy, welcome back to the broadcast. Cindy: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Dennis: And her husband, Chris—welcome back to you as well. Chris: We are excited. We love you guys. Dennis: The Beall's have been married since 1993. They have three teenage sons and their story is one of the classics on FamilyLife Today in terms of God showing up and truly not only redeeming but reconciling their marriage. Bob: If our listeners would like to hear the complete story of what brought your marriage to the brink, 2:00 they can go to our website—FamilyLifeToday.com—and listen to the interviews we've done with you. But Chris, it's rooted in you growing up with the exposure to pornography that lead you to some dark places.  Chris: Right. Eight years old I saw the first pornographic image—and for the next twenty years I was a prisoner—in one form or another—to the struggle. In 2002 we were invited to be a part of Life Church in Oklahoma City and we came. At that moment I really feel like there was kind of a do-over because I had an enormous amount of baggage and an enormous amount of lifestyle moral failures. Honestly, multiple affairs prior to us moving to Oklahoma City. Dennis: That weren't really known to anyone. Chris: Correct. It was total double life. Cindy knew something wasn't right in our marriage, didn't know exactly what that meant or what it looked like.  3:00 I would say that I was a master deceiver—of myself and other people—to keep those worlds separate—but it was when we came to Life Church that it really seemed like, “Okay, God. We thought we were coming to be the next worship leader at this church”—and the reality was God brought us there to heal us. That starts with the exposure of what the sin was. Bob: Cindy, for you that exposure came out of the blue one morning when your husband came home from work unexpectedly and said, “We need to talk.” You had no idea was coming. Cindy: I had no idea. As he began to unfold the things he just shared with you—the pornography addiction, the infidelity—as he began to say all those things, things just started happening in my mind. Of course, instant desperation, despair, everything terrible you can imagine that you could think, I thought it—but at the same time was—”Oh, it's making sense now.”  4:00 Because it wasn't our entire nine years of marriage leading up to this point—it was about a two and one half year period of really intense difficulty—so it was a total shock. I would never have imagined that he would have gone this far—this deep—into such a wretched place. Dennis: You knew at that point that something was missing in your marriage. You just couldn't say, “This is it”—but all of a sudden it was disclosed. Cindy: Absolutely. Chris: Correct. Cindy: For me, I remembered during that two and a half year period I felt very alone where we were in our church. My husband was the worship pastor, the youth pastor and so I really—people looked to me—so who am I going to talk to? I just—it was really a lonely place for me so I became very well acquainted with my heavenly Father. He became everything to me. I remember just praying, “God, something's wrong. Something's wrong.” I just remember Him saying, “Trust me. Trust me.”  5:00 So, I believed that had we not come to Oklahoma, been a part of Life Church—under Craig and Emily Groshell—that we might not have survived this. Chris: I remember seeing a book that was always next to Cindy's chair during her quiet times in the mornings during those two and a half years that I was living this double life. It was the Power of a Praying Wife.  Dennis: Yes. Bob: Yes. Chris: I will tell you, looking back, my wife was praying God's word over my life in the period that I was the most prodigal that I had ever been. I know we're going to get to this, but I truly believe where we are today—there are so many things how the church responded—partly how I responded—but I believe it all started with the fact that I had a wife that was praying—in the darkest place of my rebellion—my wife was praying and believing God's word and speaking promises over my life that ultimately I became those prayers.  Dennis: FamilyLife has known as an organization for bringing practical, Biblical, help and hope to couples.  6:00 I just have to say what you two modeled—as you faced this deep, dark valley of despair—how you modeled repentance, Chris, and how you modeled grace and forgiveness and steadfast commitment to move forward in your marriage and how the church offered healing and how they helped restore—first of all, Chris, you to a right standing before God—but then secondly, restore your marriage and your family. I would just encourage listeners—because we're not going to continue to unpack all the details of what they did in the previous broadcast, go listen to that broadcast that they did.  What I want to unpack is how God met you in that deep wound and brought deep healing. Bob: Cindy—that started that morning when your husband comes home. He is transparent about everything that has gone on. 7:00 You find out about multiple affairs. You find out that he has fathered a son—who is living in another state. This is all new to you. You had two big questions right in front of you that day. The first one is,” How do we handle this in the short term?”—because the news is going to come out that the worship pastor at the big church in town that he's not the worship pastor anymore and we have to figure out what we have to do with that—but then,” Do I even stay married to this man?” There's a Biblical case to be made for you to say, “We're done here. I'm moving on.” Cindy: Yes, and that honestly, as much as I loved him, I literally thought, “I don't think my heart can take this. I think it would be best to just cut my losses—move back to Texas. I just have one child; I can manage being a single mom.” I started immediately— I'm a planner—I'm proud of being a planner, but sometimes it gets me going on the wrong track and I start planning and not including God in the scenario—but I—I'm telling you—I began thinking, “What am I going to do?”  8:00 Thinking—just because I didn't leave our marriage—at the time we were still living in the same house—mainly because we couldn't afford to do anything different. I just felt like the Father was like, “Hello? I'm still here. Are you going to ask Me about this?” Sure enough, I was like, “Okay God. What do you think I should do?” I just kept asking that question. I just remember Him saying, “Remember when you said would do anything to bring Me glory?” I was like, “Well, yes—but I was meaning easier things, like something simpler.”  God just began to stir in me—and through a long series of events that I wrote about in my first book—I talk about how God met me and He spoke the word to me about staying the course and trusting in Him and trusting Him for the vision that He would unfold. So three weeks later I said, “Okay God, I trust you.”—because I certainly didn't trust him— 9:00 —I had to trust my heavenly Father. He is the only one 100% trustworthy—so that was the beginning of that.  Bob: So it was a three week period, basically—from the time you heard this until said, “Okay, I'm going to stick with this.” Cindy: Correct. Bob: Was, “I'm going to stick with it,”—was that, “I'm in this until the end,” or was this, “I'll stick with this for six more months and see what happens?” Cindy: It was for the end—it was until the end. Habakkuk 2:3 says, “For the vision is yet for the appointed time. Though it linger, wait for it. It will certainly come. It will not delay.” That was the Scripture that I had been basically begging God for. I just didn't know it was going to be through a minor prophet of a name that most people can't pronounce—and certainly we don't read about him. I mean, it's Habakkuk!—but God spoke to me through that. That's what I have stood on for 15 years.  Dennis: I just want you to unpack—what gave you the courage during that three week process to take that step of faith to move toward healing? 10:00 You've mentioned you had a relationship with God and you had a heart that was open—teachable—willing to do what God asked you to do. What else did He bring your way to make that a reasonable step of faith? Cindy: Well, He brought people. There was a couple that really walked with us—they had already experienced infidelity in their marriage like twenty years prior, so they were with us—they were walking through it with us—encouraging us. One of the pastors on the team—as I was that three week period I kept—as I said I am a planner, I wanted to kind of know what the rest of my life would look like—which is a ludicrous thing—but I was thinking, “I need to know. I need to know,” and he just looked at me and he said, “Cindy, you don't have to decide the rest of your life today.”  So that thought kind of carried me each day until I knew that I had heard from God to stay in my marriage because there were people with opinions everywhere. Anybody can give you an opinion. Well, you need to leave. Once a cheater, always a cheater. He's going to do this again—and there's so many things. Dennis: You heard that from Christians? 11:00                                                                                                                                   Cindy: Oh, yes. I mean—of course—and had I not gone through something like this, I can't say I wouldn't have thought the same thing. We shoot our wounded as Christians, sadly, but trying not to decide the rest of my life for that season really did help me and take those steps. Dennis: I want to point out three things here real quickly. First of all, you had counsel to hang in there—people who had been wounded themselves. And secondly they shared their own wounds with you which had been adultery—a lack of faithfulness. I am thinking of a couple, Bob, that you and I both know who have been very open about an error the husband made in their relationship, and their marriage has now been used to literally touch hundreds of other couples, both here in America, and internationally as they're willing to open their hearts and admit something that is really kind of ugly. We kind of are repulsed by it. 12:00 I just want to say to those listeners who have this as a part of your past—I'm not encouraging you to boast about it—but I am encouraging you to boast about God's redemption, His reconciliation, and how He brings hope where there is despair—because there are listeners who are listening to us right now who are despairing and who need hope.  That's the third thing that you mentioned, Cindy—that I just want to underline. You were willing to admit you didn't know what your future held, but you were willing to step out in faith. I think it was Martin Luther King, I believe, who made this statement. “Faith is taking the first step on the staircase without being able to see all the other steps.” I like that because you took that first step on a staircase—you didn't know where it was going to lead you. Cindy: Absolutely. I kind of picture God's hands under my feet— 13:00 —and one foot is on one hand and it's there when I step. Then the next one—it's not ready until I lift—the ever progressing thing that I am on with God. Bob: The river doesn't part until you step into the water. Cindy: That's right. Bob: And those who are standing on the shore waiting for the Jordan River to part—no, you have to step in the water before God does that work.  What's going on with you in this three week period while she's trying to decide “Do I stay or do I go?” Chris: So I obviously want the marriage to survive—I mean desperately—but here's the thing. Dennis: Now wait a second—that's not necessarily obvious. Bob: There are some guys who are ready for it to be over. Chris: Okay. Well, the context of my struggle was not fueled by a lack of intimacy at home. I had a deep emptiness in my heart. Here's the thing—I have struggled since I was a kid feeling like I was a failure—do I measure up?  14:00 I love my wife. I know my actions don't show that, but she was my best friend. I would choose to spend time with her. The thing is, I allowed this sense of inadequacy to need to be medicated. What happened was in a weird way these images on a screen momentarily made me feel a little bit more like a man—and then I felt less of a man. So it creates this spiral and this cycle of darkness.  The relationship with other women was the fact that I don't like who I am—but this other person is drawn to me or likes me. That's ultimately—I'm trying to medicate my own internal emptiness. It was just a deep dark place that I was trying to heal it though everyone other that the source of that healing—which is God.                                Bob: Right. Chris: So as Cindy is going through this process of, “Do I want to stay? Is this marriage going to work?” I deeply wanted that to work. 15:00 But what I wanted even more—I wanted to be free—because I've been a prisoner most of my life. I‘ve been a prisoner of sin, I've been a prisoner of habitual behaviors that for whichever reason, I just can't seem to be able to break out of. As much as I want my marriage to work, I had nothing to offer Cindy and I have nothing to offer for my boys unless I am walking in freedom. I was desperate. This is my shot and I want to be free. There's really two things that were significant in those early days for me.  One is that I allowed myself to let my heart break for what I had done to the heart of God and what I had done to the heart of the people I loved the most. Paul talked about the difference between worldly sorrow and Godly sorrow. He writes this letter to the Corinthians. He says, “I'm not sorry that what I said brought you sorrow, for Godly sorrow leaves no regret and brings about repentance”.  16:00 Repentance is a military term that really—it's literally an about face—I'm going to turn 180 degrees from the direction that I am going—and I am going to turn completely to God.  But worldly sorrow is really more of a, “I'm inconvenienced by the consequence of my sin,” and that leads—Paul says—to death. So I just let my heart break. I was a puddle of emotion for quite some time—I think that process was extremely necessary for me to go through. It wasn't that I was putting condemnation and shame on myself, but I was allowing my heart to break for what broke the heart of God.  Bob: You were at a crossroads—and I've met guys at this crossroads. You had been successfully managing your sin for two and a half years. Chris: Correct. Bob: You'd been playing this so they're the only one who knows and you're maneuvering your way through it.  17:00 Now you're at a point where, “Do I keep trying to manage this? Or do I mortify it?”—which means to put it to death. I heard one guy describe it this way. It's like a rabid dog that you keep in a cage over in the corner of the house and you go, “As long as he's in the cage, he can't hurt me. I'll get it out every once in a while and play with it and then put it back in the cage.” Well, that dog gets bigger and sicker and one of these days is going to kill you. Chris: Right. Bob: So the thing you have to do with the dog is you have to kill the dog. Chris: Right. Bob: You were at the crossroads where, “I cannot manage this anymore. I have to put this to death.” I'm imagining, Chris, even in that moment, you don't really know your heart—“Do I really want to put this to death?” Or, “I'm where I am and I feel bad, this will last for a while then I'll be right back to it.” Chris Monday morning I'm sitting in a staff meeting with Chris Groshell—who is my boss—and I can't say enough about how God used this man in our marriage. He made a comment in that staff meeting and—  18:00 —he said to our team that, “It is our private integrity that gives us the ability to minister publically, so we have to keep it clean. We have to. The stakes are so high.” He said, “If you are walking in sin—it's going to find you out. Confess it, and you'll find grace.” That was on a Monday. I had been at that church for six weeks with this looming cloud of, “I'm going to get found out.” That was on a Monday. It was on a Tuesday that I'm like, “I can't do this anymore.” I just really believed that all the things that God wanted to do in my life wouldn't happen until I had the courage to bring what was in the dark into the light. James, “Confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.”  This whole time that I was in sin, I would drive home from having sinned and I'm confessing to God. 19:00 “God, heal me. Please don't let me ever do this again.” There's not a Scripture in the Bible that says confess to the Lord for healing. We confess to God for forgiveness but there's something about bringing it into the light and confessing it to another person and praying for each other that brings an exposure and a healing. The moment that I took that step was the beginning of radical healing in my own heart. Cindy: I kind of equate it to—he got to the point that Tuesday morning—that he wanted freedom so desperately that he was willing to risk everything to get it—including our marriage. I know that you've got listeners right now listening to this broadcast and they are in a world of hurt and sick in bondage. They don't hate their sin enough. When we come to the place where we hate it enough, we'll do anything to find freedom. Hopefully somebody listening can take that step today. 20:00 Dennis: Chris mentioned freedom. I immediately thought of Galatians chapter 5 verse 1. It says, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” There are undoubtedly listeners right now who are listening and they have never really met Jesus Christ and understood His love, His forgiveness, His mercy, His grace, His redemption—that He offers to people to step out of the prison that they are in and be set free.  I would just challenge you if you are in this situation now, it may be time for you to settle things with God. Chris was talking about settling things with the person you have offended. It may be important for you to first of all settle the issues with the God you've offended.  21:00 Then secondly, after that relationship has been established—because that is what the Christian life is—it's beginning a journey of following Christ—not perfectly—but you're following the perfect Savior who now lives in you. Then go to your spouse—and there's where as a couple you have to embrace the same Jesus Christ who set you free—you have to express forgiveness to one another. Ephesians chapter 4 talks about forgiving one another just as God in Christ has forgiven you. That's your command.  Forgiveness means you give up the right to punish the other person. I wish you could see Cindy's nodding head right now—she's smiling and nodding. She had to repeatedly give up the right to punish Chris. Bob: The verse I'm thinking of that the two of you have modeled in this entire story is Ephesians 5:11 that says, “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” 22:00 That's what you guys choose to do. This week we'll get a chance to follow you on that journey and hear how God was at work in both of your lives as you moved forward.  In fact, Chris and Cindy have shared the story in a book that Cindy has written that's called Rebuilding a Marriage Better Than New. We've got copies of the book in our FamilyLifeToday Resource Center. Go online at FamilyLifeToday.com if you'd like to get a copy or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to receive a copy. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com, you can order online. Or you can call to order at 1-800-358-6329. 1-800-F as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word TODAY.  Again I'll mention—on our website we've got a short video clip where you guys share your story—listeners may want to view that. They may know somebody they'd like to pass that clip on to. Again you'll find it at FamilyLifeToday.com. 23:00 Well, this is the home stretch week for us here at FamilyLife—it's the last week of August. We just have a few days left to hear from listeners if we're going to be able to take full advantage of the matching gift opportunity that was extended to us back at the beginning of the month. We had a friend of the ministry who came along and agreed he would match every donation we received this month on a dollar for dollar basis up to a total of $800,000. Now those matching funds will enable us to be able to reach more people more often with this radio program, through our website, through our events and our resources. You can help extend the reach of this ministry by making a donation and having your donation be effectively doubled because of the matching gift opportunity—but you need to do it before the end of the month—and the end of the month is this week. So today is a good day to go to FamilyLifeToday.com and make an online donation or call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. 24:00 Or you can mail your donation to us at FamilyLife Today at P.O. Box 7111, Little Rock, AR. Our zip code is 72223. Please do pray that we would get the necessary funds this week and be able to take full advantage of that match. We appreciate you. We hope you can join us back tomorrow. We are going to continue to follow Chris and Cindy Beall as they take us through the process they've been through in rebuilding a broken marriage. Hope you can join us back tomorrow for that. Bob: I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas.Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

In our fourth See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with Chris N. West, an opening keynote speaker and seminar leader on digital marketing. His talks have been presented to teams in Germany, Canada, and the UK. His career has taken him to 48 states. He is the Founder of LR Training Solutions, a corporate training company based in Houston, Texas. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Connect with Chris on LinkedIn and check out LR Training Solutions!He also has Twitter and Instagram!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every now and then we try to mix it up for y'all, 'cause--so look, dependency and consistency is really important, but even within those lanes of consistency, you gotta have a little bit of variety, you know what I mean? You don't come home and just eat the same thing every day, or even if you do--you know, you got a meal prep thing--maybe sometimes you put a little red sauce. Maybe sometimes you put a little green sauce. You know, you gotta just, you know, mix it up from time to time. Maybe sometimes you grill it. Maybe sometimes you saute. Maybe sometimes you rotisserie. You gotta just--am I hungry? Yes, I'm hungry, y'all. My bad. Listen, check it out. We have another entry for y'all from our See It to Be It series. Amy C. Waninger, CEO of Lead at Any Level as well as the author of Network Beyond Bias, she's actually been a member of the team for a while now, so shout-out to you, Amy. Yes, thank you very much for all of your work here. And part of her work has been in driving this series called See It to Be It, and the purpose of the series is to actually highlight black and brown professionals in these prestigious roles, like, within industries that maybe we--and when I say we I mean black and brown folks, I see y'all--may not even know exist or envision ourselves in, hence the name of the series, right? So check this out. We're gonna go ahead and transition from here. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and a super dope professional. I know y'all are gonna love it. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, Chris. Thanks for joining me.Chris: No problem. It's good to be here.Amy: Thank you. So as you know, this series is designed to help young people, particularly young people of color, see all of the opportunities that are available to them in their careers, in the economy, and we're gonna spend a little time later just talking about specific support systems available to people of color in your industry, but first, can you just tell me a little bit about how you got involved in digital marketing, then how that evolved into a speaking career?Chris: Okay, sure. How I started, it was a while ago. I got my degree in marketing, and then I got a job at Google as a marketing specialist, and through that job, part of it was we would go around the country to talk to small business owners about how to use Google products to grow. So this was anything from Google+, Google advertisements, Google map listings, and pretty much all of the Google tools that can help a small business and also a large company out as well. So through that experience, it really helped me figure out what I would like to do long-term in the future and what it meant to me to do that for small business owners and other organizations. And once I started doing that training through all of those small business workshops, that's when I started realizing that I have kind of a skill for [?] to people. And also, not only that, but skill in digital marketing in general. So I got certified a while back in some of the e-marketing topics and decided to keep pursuing it over time. So then I ended up learning more about the industry as far as speaking after my Google experience, when I started researching more about it.Amy: So was your background--before you went to Google, was your background in marketing or was it in technology?Chris: It was in marketing actually. So yeah, it was a degree in marketing. Some of the companies I've worked for in the past, it was specifically marketing jobs, and that's before even Google. And the good thing about my experience at Google is that I would do about two to three I would say different jobs every six months, and I got to really learn what I would like to do long-term. Amy: The reason I asked about your background before you went to Google is I think a lot of people think of Google as a tech company, and if you're outside looking in you might think "Well, how would somebody without a technical background get into a tech company?" And I think the lesson from your story is that marketing is a skill that's transferable to a lot of different industries, including tech, and so we have to think not just about our industry but also about our function and how that function can be used in different industries. Have you found that to be true?Chris: Yeah, that's true. I never really thought of it that way, but yeah, that makes sense. Like, doing something that you can use in different industries as well. Because even as I was there, I was probably, say, out of 100 people, I would say maybe 10 people, you know, were minorities. Yeah, so I think it's still a challenge for them as well as far as being more diverse with the teams that they have, and especially the marketing team I was a part of, it was rare to have diversity. But yeah, having something that you can transfer to go to multiple industries and try to figure out how to stand out is really important.Amy: That's great. And so what was the biggest surprise to you about--you know, as you kind of went through school and you decided, like, marketing was gonna be your focus, once you got into the work world, what surprised you about the job or about the function that you didn't expect while you were in school?Chris: Oh, okay. I didn't expect to have to kind of, like, have to deal with the politics side of everything, you know? Like, dealing with the organizational structure. I thought I would just get the job, everybody would be fun and happy, no issues, no drama. [laughs] You know? But going in there and learning that it's not just about the job, it's also about how you can deal with different types of people with different backgrounds within the organization? So that's one of the main things I learned, and then also being able to be a leader and communicating your ideas, where as before, when I was in college, I was kind of on the quiet side, you know? So, like, learning in corporate, you have to kind of, like, communicate your ideas to the right people. So that's the one thing that I've tried to get better at over time, right, when I got into the workforce.Amy: Yeah. I think so much of success in an office or success in a business is not doing good work. I think--so I know a lot of women and a lot of people of color, we tend to suffer from impostor syndrome. We're worried that we have to kind of prove ourselves and prove that we're good enough to be where we are, and I think what we tend to miss is the political side, and it's we're spending so much time with our heads down trying to do the best job we can that we don't take time to make sure that other people know that we're doing a good job. Have you found that to be the case?Chris: Yeah, I think that's true with many people that I've met in the past as far as anybody trying to go after, like, their goals. I think people have so much--many people, when they get into the workforce, they get so much experience, but nobody knows about the experience, you know? It's like everybody, so many of you are doing awesome things, and then they don't even put it on their LinkedIn profile what they've done, you know? They don't have a--if they're trying to market and they don't have a website to showcase what they've done. And I guess some people think it might be bragging and everything, but you've got to think about who's gonna tell the story. You know, who is really gonna tell your story, and in general, no one's really--not many people are gonna know what experiences you've had unless you tell somebody or you say exactly what you did. So you just--I feel like people gotta spend time to learn how to market theirselves and kind of showcase things that stand out with their career. Amy: Absolutely. Building a personal brand is so important, and it starts--whether you're doing it intentionally or not, it starts the minute you step into the job.Chris: Yep, the minute. Yeah, it definitely changes pretty quickly. [laughs] Especially if you're trying to network within the organization and trying to get promotions. [?]. It's not just about the good work you're doing.Amy: Yep. So your brand is really what other people are saying about you, and if other people don't know that you're there, then you don't have a brand, and that's tough. It's tough to overcome that. So I always tell people, "Look, it's not bragging if it's true." So if you've actually done it you better speak up, 'cause it's not bragging if it's true.Chris: Somebody else is going to speak up for theirs though, right? You gotta stand out these days.Amy: So if somebody's not in marketing and they're thinking that might be a really good field for them, first of all, what characteristics or what strengths do you think play well in a marketing space for a person?Chris: For a person? I would say being able to look at things and figure out how to make things better, how can you improve awareness about a brand. A lot of it I feel, when it comes to marketing, you gotta have new ideas on a constant basis. So if you're the type of person that is always looking at how to make something better or maybe make something look better or you're able to connect with multiple people, I think it's definitely a good career. And as far as--there's so many different types of marketing. There's marketing yourself and then marketing at a corporation level, and if you work at the corporation level you really need to know, like, the latest trends or what's going on, what companies are using to market their organization, and these days it's not about just being able to design a brochure anymore or just being able to create a logo, it's more so people want everything, you know? They want you to know about social media, something about it. You don't have to be a complete expert, but you need to know what's going on out there as far as, like, the different channels. E-mail marketing, social media, things like that.Amy: And so if somebody sees themselves in that profile, that they're an idea person and they like staying up on trends and that sort of thing, where can they go? What kind of resources are out there to help people learn more about the industry, learn more about the function and kind of feel out if it's a good fit for them?Chris: I would say the American Marketing Association. That's where I started. That's where I got a lot of my experience, and over there you're gonna meet people that that's what they do on a daily basis for a full-time job. They're marketing managers, marketing specialists, directors, executives. So pretty much everybody [?] goes there. So they have the national level, and of course they have, like, pretty much a lot of local chapters on the professional level in pretty much all of the major cities. And even if you're a student, they have, like, a college [?], which was a part of when I was a college student. So that's the best way to start. So every month they'll give you what's new, what's going on, and they'll give you ideas on how you can stay up to date. Amy: That's great. And so I'm guessing since you're a speaker you do a lot of work with the Association now. Probably on the other side, right?Chris: Yeah. You know what? I haven't really started. I plan on it in the future, you know? [?] But I do work with other associations, but yeah, that is definitely a plus that comes with me being a part of it. I'm probably more likely to be able to speak at some of those events, so yep.Amy: So I think it's interesting, because it took me so long to even realize that--so I'm a first-generation professional, and it took me so many years to realize that associations even existed and what they were for and how I could use them, you know? And to me it's a great tragedy of my career that I didn't figure that out sooner. And it's funny, because I've done a few of these interviews now, and every time I ask somebody "How do people learn more?" They always mention an association, and I wish I would have asked that question when I was younger to people who were experienced in different fields.Chris: Yeah. It's like--so many people that go to the associations, it's part of the same goal, you know? They're all trying to reach the same goal, but then what they're doing [is] they're trying to look for new ideas from other people, and it's just, like, a good environment, and it's not--I feel like it's different from just going to a networking event, 'cause a networking event, you have so many people with different types of goals. Some people are looking for a job. Some people are looking to network for business. So it's like... usually those don't work out, but if you go to an association, it's specifically what you need. So, like, targeted basically.Amy: Exactly, and they usually offer educational sessions at their meetings or their conferences, and so, you know, you can find something depending on what your skill level is or your experience level. You can find something that is applicable to you, and then you can network with people who have similar experience or more experience and get involved and really learn and kind of build a name for yourself within your industry just by volunteering, right?Chris: Yeah, just by volunteering. Yeah, that's a good way to really get to know the right people in there. So volunteer your time whenever you can, whether it's local or national. I highly recommended it.Amy: Excellent. So can you tell me a little bit about what you think about the current or future talent demands in marketing? Do you think that this is an industry or function that's going to need to staff up over time, or do you see it kind of leveling out or trailing off in the near future?Chris: I think that the demand is gonna get higher because more and more organizations are realizing the importance of being online and understanding what's going on. So you have many people that have been in marketing for a long time, but they've done it the traditional way, so there's still, like, a high need for people to come in to do, like, the online marketing side of it, social media and digital marketing. So that continues to grow as more and more people get online, more and more people depend on it. And I think especially since organizations these days are actually making revenue from online channels, you know? Like social media and the digital marketing channels. So it's more and more needs. So I think it's just gonna grow, but yeah, definitely understanding more than just one area of marketing is what I've seen, and if you look at many job descriptions, they're gonna ask you for those multiple areas. Not just being able to use Photoshop or just social media but e-mail marketing and, yeah, everything.Amy: Excellent. So you had mentioned that when you were at Google you were maybe one of a handful of people of color in the marketing team that you were on, and I would imagine that that's the case for a lot of people of color in different companies around the U.S. I know that there's--and I'm gonna screw up the percentage, but something like 3% of marketing executives are women or something like that. Like, a really low number. They have a whole conference around it now I think. So where can people go who maybe feel a little alone or they want to get involved but they don't want to be the only in their office? What kinds of communities exist for people of color that can help them feel connected so that they can maintain their stamina while pursuing their passion.Chris: Okay. A lot of times I think there's different organizations--and, you know, if they're part of an organization, many companies are starting to have, like, communities within their organizations, such as... I can't remember. Within Google, there's, like, Black Googlers or something like that, things that are specific to a niche within your organization so, like, people can have a different experience. I mean, even in different associations there's always--there could be subgroups, you know, that specifically target a different group of people. So I'll say it starts with the associations, and then from there figure out what the other organizations specifically on, who they are, like, what kind of culture they have.Amy: That's helpful, and I think too that the importance of employee resource groups or business resource groups or affinity networks, whatever they're called, the larger companies tend to have those, where you come in and you kind of, you know, pick a group that you feel more comfortable with and find a mentor maybe or at least, you know, know where to go for some help navigating all of the politics like you said earlier and, you know, kind of getting the inside scoop on some of the unwritten rules of the workplace, 'cause those rules change wherever you go, right?Chris: Yep, yep. Or you can always create one too. [laughs]Amy: That is true. So I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your work as a speaker. We talked a little bit earlier about impostor syndrome, and I'll get to that in just a second, but as a speaker, you know, we have to position ourselves as experts, and the term "expert," right, there's no national certification of expertise that you go and you take a test and then somebody says, "Here, you're an expert. You can use that in your brand or your title." So what do you think makes someone an expert in their field? What makes you an expert in your field?Chris: When it comes to being an expert, I would say it's really just experience. Just, like, what kind of specific experience have you had when it comes to what you're talking about or what you're doing? Because there's a lot of--I mean, literally you could just wake up tomorrow and call yourself an expert. [both laugh] So how can you stand out from everybody else? And what I always recommend is specifically getting experience. I mean, sometimes people say they can't get a job so they can't get the experience to become an expert, but you can always volunteer. You can always, like, do stuff for free for an organization. So for instance, when it comes to marketing, I've done stuff for free for organizations just to get experience, and then once I learn it and once I get good at it, then I can say that I'm an expert, you know? That's when I know the ins and outs of it. And then you realize that you're more advanced than the audience that you're trying to reach as well. For example, if your audience is small businesses and they have nothing to do with marketing and I'm a marketing person, if I've worked with an organization for about six months or a year where I help them with their marketing and then help them drive traffic or revenue, then I'm an expert to the small business. Amy: Oh, I love that. So you see expertise on a continuum, and so long as you're ahead of the person you're talking to, you're an expert.Chris: Yeah, yeah. And then also experience though. [both laugh] So I'm not saying read an article and then you're an expert, but [laughs]--Amy: Right, actually knowing how to do it. No, I think that's brilliant. So have you struggled with impostor syndrome yourself?Chris: Yeah, I think so. I mean, sometimes--I'm trying to remember what impostor syndrome is. It's "not good enough," right?Amy: Yeah. It's the feeling that, like, the more you know, the more you feel like you don't know, so you never quite feel like you've arrived, or you feel like--the way I've experienced it is I feel like people are going to find out that I'm just faking it. And so, you know, the way that manifests itself for me is I have, like, a wall full of certifications to prove to myself that I'm not just faking it, right? [laughs] So what does that look like for you?Chris: Oh, okay. Yeah, that does happen, you know? Like, I feel like, depending on your--I mean, for me it was more so like since I was younger I started doing some of that speaking stuff, like, younger, and then of course being a minority I kind of have to say--I feel like I have to say every single thing that I've done, you know, because if I don't they're gonna go, "Oh, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about," you know? [laughs] So yeah, it does feel that way sometimes. It does feel like that sometimes, but I start to remember that "Okay, I do have legitimate experience," and I start to look at what have been the testimonials? You know, what have been the reviews? After the event, I look at the reviews. That kind of helps me understand that "Okay, I feel like I am at that level that I'm at right now." But yeah, I feel like it's a constant struggle, especially when you're trying to move forward. So, like, when I first started, I was so used to doing, like, really small events that I thought "Okay, I can't do an event with more than 10 people, you know?" [laughs] Like, and then realizing, like, just trying stuff and realizing "It's okay." You gotta grow somehow, right?Amy: Yeah. No, I think that's great, and I like that, that, you know, you just keep growing and just keep taking the steps. I think that's so important. Do you feel like you have to clear a higher bar than others? You said that, you know, you feel like because you're black you have to, like, list everything you've ever done so that people understand that you're the real deal. Do you feel like that there's a bar and then there's a bar for you that's higher?Chris: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I definitely feel that way, 'cause you have to--'cause yeah, I look at it as... when people see, like, people like myself, since I'm black, you know, they don't really see this type of person in that position, you know? Like, you don't see that many minority speakers out there, or even just like I said, like, when it comes to marketing and tech companies. Since they don't see it that much, they probably automatically assume that you don't know what you're talking about, you know? [laughs] There's been times where I walk in to the presentation and people don't think I'm the presenter. You know, they probably don't think I'm the presenter, so I have to, like, really show up and meet all of the expectations, and I feel like I have to do a little bit more too. So I gotta kinda give 110%, you know, instead of just trying to give an 80% or 70%, you know, and getting by. And people can get by, you know, but if you're in a different category, I feel like you do have to put a little bit more effort in. And I think one challenge is that initial reaction too. Initially when people see you, then after they hear your content and everything like that, that's when they kind of understand "Okay, this person is an expert," but the challenge is the beforehand. You know? What matters is before, right? In order to get a client, you still have to present yourself effectively and show that you know what you're doing. So that's where the challenge is. Like, everybody can like you, but it's like you still have to get that client first, right? [laughs] So there's the bar, right? Yep.Amy: Yeah. No, I definitely--I can definitely see how that's true, and I think the more differences a person has relative to the larger group the higher that bar gets and the more hurdles you have to clear and the more you have to prove yourself, you know? And that can be exhausting. I was a woman in tech for 20 years, and, you know, I would have men much older than me--when I was younger at least--who would say, "Oh, you're a really good programmer for a girl." I was like, "Hm. You know what? I fixed your code." [laughs] But they didn't want to hear that, right? So yeah, I can see how that could be a life-long frustration. Now that I'm older, I think that it's not as bad for me personally, but, you know, I'll never outgrow being a woman, right? I still get that occasionally, right? And we'll never outgrow our race, and we'll never outgrow our ethnicity or, you know, coming from another country or having a disability. Like, these are things that, you know, are a struggle over and over and over, but, you know, I long for the day when we can just all be taken on our merits and given the same benefit of the doubt.Chris: Yeah, that's--hopefully one day, right?Amy: We're a long way. [both laugh] We'll see, we'll see. So I want to ask you, in the time that we have left, to finish two sentences for me. The first one is "I feel included when ________."Chris: All right. So... I feel included when I'm informed about new opportunities. Amy: Ooh, I like that. Okay, and "When I feel included, I _________."Chris: When I feel included, I work better with the group and I give back.Amy: I love it. And I think that's true with most people, right? Most of us, we want to know what's going on, we want to give back, but if we don't feel safe to be ourselves, we can't put ourselves out there like that.Chris: Yeah. You want to feel included, right?Amy: Absolutely, absolutely. Chris, thank you so much for your time today.Chris: Yeah, it was great. Thanks.Amy: Okay, thanks.Chris: It was awesome stuff.

On this weeks episode of reThink Real Estate, we discuss ways to clear your mind and focus on your business. There are hundreds of headlines vying for our attention which serve as little more than a distraction to our businesses. We discuss our thoughts on what to pay attention to and what to ignore so that our businesses don't suffer. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 14:41 RTRE 55 –  Pay Attention to What Matters in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris here with Christian. Nate can't join us today. He is too busy selling homes. What is going on Christian? [Christian]: Not much just running into the office after frantically dropping off my son at school and yeah trying to stay cool. What are we gonna talk about today? [Chris]: What is going on in real estate. There is some headlines out on Inman. Open Door picks up another 300 million dollars at a reported 3.8 billion dollar evaluation. Caldwell [phonetics] does some rebranding and agents how to become influencers.  [Christian]: Yeah I was really enjoying the comment section of the Caldwell [phonetics] branding. That is always gold you know seeing what people decide to what hill they decide to dive on [inaudible] [laughter] with rebranding and the broker decided to… [Chris]: Well brokerage that are not at and even agents…Everybody has an opinion and everybody wants to voice their opinion in trivial [censored]. I mean remember with NAR. NAR changed the logo last year. And it threw up such a sting that they changed it back.  [Christian]: Did they change it back? I didn't notice. [Chris]: Oh yeah yeah they…So… [Christian]: 100.000 down the drain. [Chris]: So they did a boxed R. The cube with the R on it. And then it threw such a sting that they got rid of it. They spend like 300 million dollars for some astronomical…  [Christian]: It was like 300.000. [Chris]: Yeah it was a lot of money. [Christian]: That's a lot of money for yeah, changing one R into a different type of R so… [Chris]: Yeah and then everybody hated it so… [Christian]: People do. It's funny as we're kind of going over the headlines of what is happening. What is getting all the buzz in real estate. You brought up a good point that all this stuff probably has nothing to do with my business or your business or any agents actually doing business. It's all distractions and shiny objects.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean for a…it gives people an excuse to not focus on doing what they need to do which is sell real estate. Or train their agents to sell real estate if you're a broker. You know it's like watching the local news right? It takes up a lot of time, but what is the same news every single day? Somebody died, somebody got robbed, something broke in the city and somebody is doing something crazy for consumers.  [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: That is the same news every single day and people spend hours of their day, in the morning and the evening paying attention to that [censored]. [Christian]: Right. Well it is funny too I mean you know kind of running with that example. Because what we're talking about here is information, right? We're talking about our awareness of our world around us or what we considered the world around us. It is interesting if you do a little like kind of historic reading of like how technology changes, how we interact with each other and with technology you know like the value of information has changed from 100 plus years ago where the value was largely isolated to your local community. And it only had value if applied to your life directly. You know if like “What is the rainfall gonna be so I know what my crops are gonna be this year”. That's is what mattered. Nowadays most information is human neutral stories. Which means 99% of it has absolutely no bearing on your life whatsoever. [Chris]: What did…What did Breaderman [phonetics] write about today? And usually when he writes something it is pretty good. But you know like what is Zillow announcing. What evaluation is iBuyers gonna have now? And it all is… [Christian]: Sure in 10 years 60% of the market is gonna be iBuyers. So…That may or may not be true but what to do with my business today you know like some of that stuff can inform but by in large nothing comes of it and it doesn't really affect your stuff. Like you know so the question really becomes why do we get so easily distracted, wrapped around excel about stuff that doesn't help our clients or doesn't get us more business or doesn't grow our brokerage. It is just distractions… [Chris]: People need something to talk about. [Christian]: You mean today. Right. [Chris]: It gives people something to talk about at the water cooler. “Oh what about this? What about that?” But you know what, the water cooler doesn't make you money? Does it?  [Christian]: Yeah but you know it gives you that dopamine to be upset about something. Or enraged about something or worried. [Chris]: It allows people to feel about things that aren't important. [Christian]: Yeah. And I wouldn't say like these things aren't irrelevant. Necessary. But by in large it might affect things years down the road. But again you know it's energy. It's…You know you've got  a limited emotional and mental energy and response so much of it on Facebook or on this you know kind of what's the big distractor and whatever else.  As opposed to building something, doing our business, staying in our lane. Doing our thing. You know like when I was at a larger franchise yeah there is people shuffling around doing transactions but mostly it was people sitting around [censored] about other people's business or “Have you seen what that person is doing or that person is like”. What does that have to do with you? Like mind your own business you know.  [Chris]: “I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer…[crosstalk]. I think our broker is sleeping with the loan officer”. “Really?” Yeah I mean think like that that those permeate offices and corrupt culture. And you know from a macro level it is important to understand where the industry is going. So that you know how to kind of steer and navigate the industry with your business. But for the most part every other day when you see a new evaluation all you need to know is venture capital funds are putting money at high buyers. That's it.  [Christian]: True. Yeah. Well for the average agent like you know if Compass is growing in a market or Open Door has you know some hundreds of million dollar you know the funding you know round fund how does that affect your business? You know maybe if your brokerage is thinking about the future and how you want to structure your business it could you know just looking at trends but I mean I think a lot of it comes back to you know, we've got limited time and resources. Why are we spending it on these things that don't directly impact us? [Chris]: It's easy. Because it is easy to talk about that. And it is harder to go in and put the work into growing our business and to talk about that. It's not…It's not cool to talk about the work that people don't want to do or that aren't doing. [Christian]: Trust me… [Chris]: And when you're at the water cooler and you're sitting there talking about “Oh I just made this call and that call” and people are like “Eh” and they clam up and they're crossing their arms because they don't talk about that because they're not making their calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They're not out there prospecting. They're not talking about you know, the next best thing in growing their business. For a couple of reasons. So there is the idea of competition selling a lot of offices. They don't come up at their training and their culture from an abundant perspective. They think everybody is competing against one another and therefore they don't share ideas. And then you know the other side of that is they don't know what the [censored] they're doing. So they… [Christian]: I mean I think part of that…That is practically true but I think the other side of it is most agents know what they need to be doing but they're not willing to do it. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: You know and so it comes down to why do so many agents hate being real estate agents [laughter]. You know they're not willing to like do the work. You know and thinking about this from a brokerage perspective, you know like I have had to think about whether the different models we could have. How much do we provide? Do we provide leads? Do we just provide systems? Do we provide nothing? You know and we try to do like this middle road of competitive commission split with the essential tools to help them be successful with serving their clients. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But you know than there are some models that like provide you know leads and this and that. You know initially that is like “OK well that would be great if we got to a point when there is like abundance of incoming you know business that we could refer at those leads or whatever”. But at the end of the day if a brokerage is providing all that to their agents than what the hell do you need agents for if they're not…I mean what is their job if they can't even provide their own business? [Chris]: A brokerage at that point becomes a big team.  [Christian]: Right because essentially I mean that is what you're doing if you're providing leads. You're doing everything for that agent. They're just sitting there you know. [Chris]: Wrapped up and happy. [Christian]: Yeah they get it handed to them. It's like I mean the point of brining that up is you know what is the role of an agent if they're not willing to like do anything. If they're not willing to provide their own business, grow their business. Find new clients. You know than there can be a lot of different ways. That's not just I mean your classic cold call meeting. I mean you can do so many different things. But the point of it is you have to be doing certain actions everyday to move that ball forward. [Chris]: Oh yeah.  [Christian]: If they're not sure how to spend their time talking about the thread of Open Door or Compass or the NAR or Lumion [phonetics] Legal Battle or how that may change the industry like yeah that is interesting but it's not gonna help you in your business today, you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I think that you hit it right on the money. If it is not gonna help you in your business today I don't think you need to be paying that much attention to it. Get back. Put the horse blinders on. Look down. One step in front of the other. And you know what a lot of agents don't do is they don't go out and try new things. They will just sit there and look at what other people are doing but they don't actually go out and try something on their own. [Christian]: Well they'll poop on it. They're gonna be like “Oh that is the stupidest thing ever. Until it starts working and they try to copy it. [Chris]: There was a…there was a video that I saw going around and you know gets mixed reactions. There is an agent. Erica Gotiwolf [phonetics] she did a home tour where her entire body was blurred out and looked like she was naked. I am sure she wasn't but she well picture it was naked doing a naked home tour.  A couple of days having that video out, property is under contract. She has 5 listing appointments and 2 referrals. There was a lot of negative feedback on that video but you know what half of the people really thought she was ballsy for doing it. And she got additional business out of it. You know I shared that example with my agents this morning. And low and behold they you know I think a light clicked and they started realizing you know what not everybody has to love what I am gonna do in order to be successful at this. So… [Christian]: Well and the reality is if you're doing something different or better you're probably getting negative feedback than positive. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: And you just have to…You have to know that the people who you know the haters are people who are gonna be stuck in mud and go and hate anything that is new. Don't worry about them. You know if you're doing you know Sutton you know naked home tours, if the goal is to get more eyes in that listing for your client, that is affective. You know you called the stick or, you know, whatever but it was effective and aligned her wish people who likes the outside of the box marketing ideas so got her more business for her ideal client base. Who cares what people who don't understand that think. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think the whole point of this episode is don't pay attention to everything that is in the headlines in real estate because it is going to distract you everyday. It's all the same stuff. Somebody has gotten more of an evaluation. Somebody is telling you how you can become an influencer. Somebody is saying that this company did something else. Focus on your business and just the how…if you pay enough attention to the headlines you don't understand where the industry is going. Don't worry about all the shiny objects. [Christian]: I mean at the end of the day I wanna say…You know I don't want to say “Don't pay attention to this stuff” but just be intentional about how much time you're spending. I mean I know like people who are really intentional and really killing it on social media they're not doing it that way because they're on social media all day but they're doing it because “This half hour is dedicated to me building my social media” and they don't touch it the rest of the day. So they're actually productive. Do the same thing with these headlines. “OK here is my half hour to read the most sensational headlines and then move on to my day”.  [Chris]: All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. Stick with us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Make sure you sign up for our newsletter so you get notified every time a new episode drops. Thank you so much for tuning in and please make sure that you give us a 5-start review on iTunes. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode It's easy to for some agents to get along well with their peers. For others, not so much. Tune in today as we discuss the skills necessary to be a pro that other pros want to be around. Here are the secrets to playing nice in the sandbox. The rules are simple. Play nice in the sand box. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 31:05 RTRE 36 –  Erica Ramus on Promoting Women Leaders [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hi everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am your host Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White, Christian Harris. Guys how are you? [Christian]: Hey. [Nathan]: Hey, I am fantastic and beautiful. [Chris]: Hey Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: I knew that was coming why didn't I [inaudible] [laughter]. The think about my CRM. I am embarrassed. I swear people it is happening. It is going to get out of my head and… [Christian]: We do know you swear a lot. [Chris]: Yeah you do swear a lot. [Nathan]: Yes I am going like…Man it's gonna be bad. It's gonna be bad in my office. I am gonna have to shut the door. There is going to be a lot of curse words probably. Probably. But you know I drink a lot of caffeine and I swear a lot people, if you don't know. So yeah we're getting there. It is process right. So I should…The episode after this hands down I will give you some feedback. [Chris]: It's OK. We're gonna keep your feet to the fire. [Christian]: Focus that caffeine and rage to getting your CRM up and running. [Chris]: Definitely. So.. [Nathan]: Yeah I am going to. [Chris]: For everybody tuning in if you get a chance, if you haven't already. Go to and check out our website and our new newsletter at rtrepodcast.com. If you go there, you can click on the little box. Type in your name and email address and every week when we launch a new episode you will be notified. So this week we have an amazing guest. Her name is Erica Ramus. She is the broker owner and magic maker at Ramus Realty. Erica welcome. [Erica]: Thanks guys. [Chris]: It's great to have you on. For our agents who are not in your neck of the woods, why don't you tell us a bit about you and your company? [Erica]: Sure. I am the broker of a small independent boutique company in rural Pennsylvania. I run the middle of the North East. And so most of the cities around. I am very, very wear off. And we have less than 10 agents. I have 8 agents and me and an apprentice in the office. And while we are small in boutique we are mighty. So, we have only 8 people in the office but we have 13% market share.  [Chris]: What? [Erica]: Yeah. The largest companies in the area have 15, 20 and 80 agents. And consistently we have…typically we have…I checked yesterday. We have 40 sites pending currently. And the biggest company has 75.  [Chris]: Wow. That is incredible. [Erica]: So highly productive.  [Chris]: Very highly productive. So when we first met it was…You know it feels like this entire podcast is right around the Inman crowd because Erica and I we met out at Inman. Christian was there also when we were doing the…feeding the homeless. Before the conference started and we were at the same panel about being a broker and non-producing.  So you operate your brokerage a little bit different than I do. Which is you know I am the trainer right I don't go and do really anything. I hope people build their own careers. Tell us a little bit about how your office is run. How are…how are you able to obtain 13% market share with only 8 agents under you? [Erica]: I think of my office as running almost like a super team.  [Chris]: OK. [Erica]: So my name is on the door and before I was in real estate I was a magazine publisher. And I had multiple magazines which…one was a local scoop living magazine. So you probably have Atlanta Life or Atlanta Living or Seattle Living. Something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. [Erica]: So I started that and everybody in town knew me. I was the magazine lady. I was selling ads. And hawking my magazine. And than I got into real estate so when I got in I was almost an immediate success because everybody already knew my face. And I used the magazine to my benefit as well. All of my houses of course were advertised in my own magazine. [Chris]: Nice. [Erica]: So it as a great jump-start. But I built a team under me. I very quickly realized that I couldn't service the leads that were coming in. And so than I left to go out on my own. I built a team up of people who just honestly want to be fed. I produce the leads. I state myself as the reign maker ruler. I do all the marketing on the back end. My face is on almost everything.  And when we're agent advertising my name is on the door so I have very strict control over quality. I do all the marketing and produce all the materials myself. The leads come in, the get filtered through the agents and than I am to deal with after  in the background if something goes wrong. But that is my role. I see it as feeding the agents and making sure that everybody is happy and productive.  [Chris]: And recently you were telling me I think a couple of months ago that you started doing a lot more travel recently and talking and really try moving into more a leadership role within the industry right? [Erica]: yep. So I have always written. Obviously magazine writing was my background and blogging. And so I have always written articles and so I am speaking locally. But recently in the past 2, 3 years I started taking up national speaking engagements. I spoke at Better Homes and Gardens about 2 years ago at their last region event. And Inman and National…NAR. And so my inner circuit.  [Chris]: I am impressed.  [Christian]: Awkward pause OK. [Chris]: Awkward pause.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: There we go. Alright there we go. So…So you…Inman, Better Homes and Gardens, NAR. Now you're on one of the committees with NAR too right? [Erica]: Yep. Next year I am on the research and development committee. This past 2 years I have been on the housing opportunity committee. I have dome some professional development so… [Chris]: That's fantastic. So the reason I am bringing this up is because there has been a lot of talk. And a lot of focus on women leaders within our industry. Because let's face it, Christian, Nate and I are the majority. I am sorry we're the minority in real estate. This industry is almost 60% female and the leadership is skewed the other direction.  So tell us what it is like to be not only a broker owner as a female because that is something we will never know but also to be putting yourself out there in the leadership role as a speaker and travelling across the US to talk about helping other women to step into a leadership role and grow their business also. [Erica]: That is something I have always been passionate about, it is owning my own business. I started my own businesses from scratch. When I was in my early 20s. And it was the magazine business. I was not content about just being the editor or publisher. I wanted to own the magazine. And I did. So I have always been an entrepreneur.  And once I started in real estate I knew very quickly I either wanted an ownership role in my company or I was gonna start my own. So to me it was never a question of why would I try or why would I do it. I question all the time why ever women don't step out into leadership roles. And why they don't start their own brokerages. A lot of women seem to express that they're unhappy where they are. And they search for other brokers. When I was unhappy I just started my own company.  So…But I think it is something that is inside of you. It is innate. And a lot of women I believe are afraid to take the chance. It was a huge risk when I went out on my own and I had a young son and my husband but who totally supports me and everything I do. All my crazy ideas. But you know why don't women say “I want to make a change”? And instead of jumping from broker to broker “I want t start my own company” or “I want to be a manager in the firm”.  But almost all the managers and owners in my area they're all men. So…Local especially when the kids are young and if you have children you can relate. I know you have children and I know Christian and Chris you both have young children. But I didn't have a husband at home taking care of the kids. And he works too so that was challenge and that is probably why I didn't travel and didn't do a lot of speaking. Occasionally I would travel but I didn't do the NAR stuff. I didn't do the contract until the kids were out of the house and it was much easier. Now I just have to worry about the dog. [Christian]: So Erica being the reign maker at your office you mentioned kind of matching leads and giving hose out and kind of working all the back end stuff and being very involved with the transactions. What is your means of acquiring that new business. Do you kind of do the traditional you buy them or are you just a known entity that you actually got a lot of community coming to you? When they have real estate needs? [Erica]: WE do both because while I certainly have enough organic coming into the site…The site is…I don't know 15 years old basically. We get great Google traffic on our own but we also do buy some leads. So specifically we have about 35% of our closing will be repeat referral business. Out at a given point and the remainder are just walk-in office street. We have a very prominent location on a busy highway corner. And we also have a little bit of Zillow paid. Not much. We actually cut that back significantly. But Zillow pushes a lot of Facebook ads. And we get great leads just from Facebook and also some Google paid.  [Chris]: Has there ever been anything that has happened to you that you think would discourage another woman agent from becoming their own business owner or stepping up into a leadership role either on NAR or on a national speaking arrangement? [Erica]: I think there still is a disconnect between strong women and the belief that strong women versus a strong man in negotiating or even running a company, the woman is not necessarily respected as much as the man. I just…I still see that. And I believe that a man who is negotiating a problem on a deal who is a broker and if he is perceived as being strong is not necessarily being perceived as difficult. He is just being a strong businessman and negotiating or advocating for his client.  Whereas women when we step up to the table and argue on behalf of our client or try to push something through that is strong in our belief we're seen in a negative light as opposed to a positive right. And I haven't necessarily seen this happen on a national level. Every meeting and committee that I have been involved with in the state national has been very respectful. But I see it locally. Most of the brokers around me are all men The managers are men and there is definitely still the stigma against the strong women.  [Chris]: In your office what is the breakdown on demographic, men versus women that are working with you? [Erica]: I have one fantastic man [laughter]. [Chris]: One fantastic man so you have 7 agents working for you that are… [Erica]: All women.  [Chris]: All female. So…Christian and I are running our own office. We each have our own company and obviously we do not fully understand the female experience. If we wanted to create an environment that is conductive for females to come in and be successful and grow their business, what should we do as male brokers in an industry that is 60% female? [Erica]: I would say bring them along with you. Bring them up and along. Bring them to meetings. Bring them if you're going to say chambers of commerce function. Or local meetings. Board meetings. Bring them with you and mentor them up. I think women have to be told that it is OK. It is OK to be strong. It is OK to get a babysitter some nights and go out to business functions. You don't have to be home every night with the kids. I… Women feel guilty about this. I know I did. Getting my broker's license I had to have my best friend at the house from 6 to 10 Thursday nights when I took my classes. And I felt terrible that they were in school all day with my friends rather than with me. But…You have to empower them and also listen to them. You should listen to. A lot of women get stepped on their voices get stepped on and they don't necessarily feel like they are heard.  In my office meetings for example the man in my office he's named Will. He is fantastic. He is very open to giving suggestions at our office meetings. His voice is very vocal. And I have watched some of the women step back a little bit when he speaks and I will pull them out of their shell and say “That is a great idea Will. What do you think about it Stephanie?” And pull them up so that they are not shrinking violets in the background. [Chris]: That's a…I think that is fantastic. we'll have to make sure that we are doing things like that because you know right now we…at least my office is predominantly female. So we try and create an environment where no ideas are really shunt. Right we want everybody to feel empowered that when they come into the office their ego is left at the door and everybody is here to either better themselves or better the people around them.  OK If they're not in the office for one of those 2 reasons they're not welcome because every…So we want that environment where people feel “Oh hey you know what everybody's voice is heard and everybody gets the same amount of focus form the office on how they can grow their business.” And I think one of the challenges being a male broker is that we just instinctively we yell at each other. I mean guys, that's what we do. [Erica]: Right. [Chris]: So when we sit in meeting we're gonna yell at each other. Politely but we're gonna basically be vocal. And what I have learnt is that a lot of women let that happen. They kind of step back so I really like that. That's one of the things that I am gonna have to work on. When I am in those meetings recognizing when they are kind of stepping back and binging them forward. That is great. Thank you Erica. [Erica]: What's the body language? And you know when someone has something to say but they're not gonna say it. And I pull them out of it and make them say it because I wanted them to know their voice is important to me.  [Christian]: Yeah I thing that is important as a leader whether male or female. You know people have different personality types and you know kind of as a type females in general tend to be not as aggressive. So…But you know I know that guys are like that too kind of pick them out like “Hey you know I see you haven't said anything during this meeting, what do you think about this” you  know and try to pull them back in. [Chris]: I think that is excellent advice. So take note brokers. Male brokers. This is what you gotta be doing because face it women are on the move and it's…They're the majority we're the minority, I am the user minority because I am not only a man, but I am a millennial. We make up 4% of the industry. So…It's important to pay attention to this stuff. Nate? [Nathan]: So to pick back on that Erica I always like to ask our guests questions that we have on the show. So the first one I would almost think maybe it would be applicable maybe I am wrong, but first question I want to ask you is how is failure and current failure set you up for later success? Question 2 is what are bad recommendations you hear in our profession and then the third one is if you can have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it what would it say? So go [laughter]. [Erica]: OK and the first question is easy. The biggest failure in my entire life was when I had the magazine. I bought the magazine from my prior boss. I got tired of doing all the work. That's what I thought. Doing all the work and not being the boss so I just bought them out. And I blamed the pregnancy on that one.  So I bought it without looking at the numbers without the advice of my attorney, my accountant and my husband. [laughter]. The trifecta and a couple of years later I…the whole industry changed. Destruction came in. The disruptors but we already hear them all the time in our industry. And domino started falling and I was 3 quarters of a million in debt. In this tiny little rural world and I somehow managed to start a second magazine which actually was successful but I learned huge, huge lessons in that first failure, like when you get a pay, pay roll, you don't use a discover card. You know or huge lessons that I never repeated again.  All having to do with my ego and the handling of overhead. Which leads me to number 2. So handling the overhead whether you're the broker or the agent. Everyday my agents come to me I feel with this great news scam. This great new product that somebody wants them to buy it too. “It's only 99 dollars a month. It's only 25 dollars a week. Only…It's only 100 dollars to put a business card up on our program.” You know over and over again. “It's only…It's only”.  And there are people who make lots of money selling products off the backs of agents who should not be spending that money. So, I warned my new agents “Please don't spend any money on any lead generators. I will make your leads for you. Just sit back and work the leads. And do not ever say it's only, because in January when you're adding up your taxes it's gonna be a huge number”. So that to me is one follows the other. Keep your overhead low. [Chris]: Shiny object syndrome.  [Erica]: Yeah the new shiny object thing. [Nathan]: Yeah we have talked about that before but that is a great recommendation. I mean awesome. Awesome recommendation.  [Chris]: “It's only gonna cost me my success”. [laughter] [Erica]: Yeah and than they say “You only need to sell one house”. If you only sell one house you can't pay off the thing. Now I don't want to hear that. [laughter]. And then I guess my billboard would be “Be fearless”. Just that's my motto “Be fearless”. I am… [Chris]: Where would you put it? [Erica]: I would… [Nathan]: I didn't ask where. [Erica]: Yeah he didn't ask where so I don't have to answer that question. [laughter] [Chris]: OK OK ,be fearless. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean literally the question is “If you could have it anywhere with anything on it…” I mean it doesn't matter where it is it's what's on it I guess. Is the message. And be fearless. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: I love that. So Erica we were talking the other day and you were currently working on an article for Inman. About how we focus our business. This kind of piggy bags off of our last episode with Billy a little bit. So what is your philosophy? You are running this business, you've got 8 agents, you are the reign maker. They are killing it. You've got great market share. What is your business philosophy about how you treat your clients and how does that set you apart? [Erica]: I…A lot of brokers say “We're agent centric, we're agent focused, we're all about the agent”. I believe the broker owns the client and I am client focused. It's all about the client. If you serve the client well the agents will be well fed and taken care of and that side of the coin takes care of itself. But it all begins with the broker and the client and so our entire office is very client centric. Even to the fact that if somebody is working with the client they're not handling it well or they are not mixing well with this person, they're getting frustrated. We will just pull them off that one and say “Give it to this person”. And switch them. It's about the client not about you and your commission or the money coming into the office. [Christian]: Preach it sister.  [Erica]: So…Say it again. [Christian]: I said preach it sister. [Nathan]: Preach it is right. I mean if you go by even our last episode part of this. Again it's client. This is like another one of the common themes in our podcast right guys? I mean and lady.  [Chris]: It's tuning in. [Nathan]: Listen listen, this is not rocker science. We are not reinventing the wheel. We are not…We are not coming up with something new. We're actually just going in and doing what we should be doing and taking care of the client. Good Gosh I mean we can't say it enough. But I mean why do we have to keep saying it? [Erica]: Because people are too dump to do it. It's simple.  [Christian]: Right. Well and I think it's because we push it back against the status quo of the industry. The franchises… [Chris]: They're like KPIs KPIs KPIs. [Christian]: All of that stuff is set up to be focused on sales and numbers and money and getting as many agents as possible you know. [Erica]: Yeah. [Chris]: Recruit retain recruit retain. [Christian]: Exactly. So I mean being client focused or caring about people is not…You are going against the flow of how the whole industry works. [Nathan]: Right yeah. You know there are stats and all that good. I had an agents yesterday…sag way real quick. Sorry. They chased bank at their home office. I get invited to their…their first time or their home buyer programs. And it is great being a chased preferred agent but they are having to be another agent there that is new and one of the other agent speaks and said “Hey we haven't lost the house and in our competitive market you probably will.” And she said “Not me” And I was like oh come on just stop. Like here we go with the ego and not making it about the client, you're making it about you. And can we just…More people. I am gonna stop. Just stop making it about you there. [laughter] [Chris]: Yeah it's the ego. [Erica]: And brokers can be afraid to get people out of their office when they don't fit not only the culture but the way the agent should be. I terminated one who was all about her. She rebelled on a client because the client was 10 minutes late on an appointment [laughter]. And the client forwarded me the text message and she said “I don't have time to wait for people at houses”. I was “You need to leave now” [laughter]. [Nathan]: If this was online and like a quote I would be doing that arrow and this…This this right… [Chris]: Yes. [Nathan]: Man that is…Yes. Don't be afraid. [Chris]: One of the…One of the things that I have learned over the last few years in kind of the leadership role of running a company is your culture that you build and that you operate is based off of thousands of tiny interactions. When you have people like that the ego, the meltdown, the trip, like they're just gonna suck and drain all the energy away from the people that are really trying to do good. So I couldn't agree with you more Erica. You just gotta get rid of those people. Unfortunately, I think there is too many brokers that if you got a pulse and a license you're… [Erica]: When you're being judged…When you're in a major franchise and you're being judged by the head count in  your office…I don't judge myself. People ask me...I will go to Inman and the first word out of their mouth is how many agents I have in the office. So I have… [Christian]: It's the metrics of measuring success. [Erica]: Exactly. I am proud of my market share. I am proud of the fact that my agents do a minimum of 24 sites a year. I have 2 that are doing 40 this year and one who is approaching 60. That is a lot of site. [Chris]: That is a lot of site. [Nathan]: That is slaying the dragon. [Chris]: I think that having…A lot of people put pressure on the metrics. “Oh number of agents, volume sold”. But I think the biggest metric is per person productivity. Because I think if those numbers win the per person productivity I think you are destroying Remax who is the…I mean their franchise on average is the highest per person productivity at like 16 sites per agent on average.  They don't even bring in KW because they are the biggest but they don't have the numbers per agent that KW has. That Remax has. And your average real estate agent in the industry is gonna do like what? 3, .4 deals per year? And that's just sites. So 3,4 sites per year I think is the average. And you are destroying that. And that is fantastic and you're doing it with a complete math of 10 people.  [Christian]: Yeah and that's the…That's the business number side of it. Anything else taken into accounts, smaller you know indie brokerages like ours you know can have the luxury of being able to be in charge, in control of developing that culture, how happy are your agents? You know, like on Remax or whatever. You know name any franchise and you know largely they have undefined culture. Like there is no distinguishing factor as to you know….What is like in their office versus anther franchise. Like they're just there to you know have head count. [Chris]: Our office has the best coffee machine. [laughter] Stuff like that. So Erica for any…We've had the theme kind of today of being the woman business owner. For anybody who is thinking about like stepping up like what advice would you give them? [Erica]: I would say that if you're not strong in your leadership skills or don't feel like you're there, that don't know how to be a leader, get a coach, get a mentor. There are at least in my areas there is classes you can take as far as leadership. Or find someone who you admire and ask them to take you under their wing because it really is by osmosis I think in this business and if there is someone in your office who shows promise bring them up with you. I take my agents all the time to chamber of commerce function, to mixers and just have them by my side so they can watch me interacting with other business people an helpfully bring up their confidence level. [Chris]: I love it. That's great. Erica for anybody who wants to get in touch with you and say they've got somebody moving to Pennsylvania or they just want to reach out and pick your brain on some of the things that you have accomplished, what is the best way that they can reach you? [Erica]: They can always call me or email me. My email address is easy, it's my name. ericaramus@gmail.com. And that's –E-R-I-C-A-R-A-M-U-S@gmail. And my phone number is 5704492131. If you google me it's all over. [Chris]: Awesome. Erica thank you so much for taking the time out of your day today to join us here in re:Think Real Estate. For everybody who is listening in please visit us. Go to rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter so every week when we launch a new episode you're gonna get notified. Thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help. Learn about coaching services here.   Thank you for listening! Find a transcript of this episode below.   Chris: Hey everybody, it’s Chris Denmon with Denmon and Pearlman out of St. Petersburg, Florida and today I’m with Shawn Leamon. Did I pronounce that right Sean?Shawn: You got it right.Chris: All right. Shawn Leamon, who is a certified divorce financial analyst and the host of a podcast which is Divorce and Your Money. Which is how I found Shawn and we’re continuing our series today. We’re interviewing tangential professionals in other professions that can help our clients get through the divorce process in the best possible way and help them move onto their lives in the best possible way. And so Shawn, you’ll be talking to some of my future clients and my current clients. And take it away, what did I miss? What else about you should we let people know?Shawn: No, I think that’s great. I’m a certified divorce financial analyst. I get to work with people all over the country. My podcast, Divorce and Your Money is probably the largest divorce podcast that’s out there. I like to help people as much as possible because you know, divorce in many aspects, financially, legally and emotionally as well, is a very complex process for someone. So I like to help at least in my small segment where I can. Chris: Absolutely. And yeah, the same idea, right? So when I’m a lawyer and I do lawyer things, and my clients are going through the process, they’ll come to whether it’s for a figuring out a budgeting issue, or whether it’s a tax issue and I’m not an expert at that. That’s not what I know best, and I turn to people like you to help me answer those questions, and a lot of times, it’s easier for me to just introduce my clients to somebody like you, or you to you because then you can help them get the answers they need better than I can do it. And you and I were talking before we started, and I know you from your podcast. I also know you because I was looking up an answer to something that here I am, the divorce attorney, I didn’t know the answer, and you had answer it on a very detailed, excellent blog post that I was able to get the answer for me and then share it with my client. And you’re able to help that way. Chris: So, thank you for taking some time to chat with me today. I appreciate it.Shawn: Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.Chris: With my clients, I have two different phases where I think they need help and I’m going to kind of just mention that and let you kind of help educate in any way that you can. But I know that I have clients that right at the very beginning of the process, in anticipation of a divorce, or in anticipation really of a separation where they have one household and they’re getting ready to potentially move into two households, and they have to figure out how to budge for it. Plan for it and make the right decisions with their finances. That’s kind of one bucket where my clients need help.Chris: And then the other bucket is when it’s all said and done, you know as a divorce lawyer I think we’re good at getting things done and then we shake hands and then we release our clients into the wild, right? And sometimes we have clients like maybe a needy spouse who for the last 20 years, she hasn’t really done any of the budgeting and I don’t want to leave them … I don’t want to shake hands and let them go off and have them ill-prepared. And that’s another, that’s an area where I think that they need help. Is that kind of your experience?Shawn: Yeah. You know I think the main focus for anyone who’s thinking about divorce is already in the process, really boils down almost to two things. The first is knowing what you have. The number of conversations where people don’t know they have a retirement account, or you need to know … I mean, if you have a house, you need to know what it’s worth and have a good sense of that. If you have a mortgage, or if you have other debts somewhere. If you have credit cards. Regardless of whether you were the spouse who took care of the finances, or has never seen them at all, your first step is just to figure out, “Well, what are we splitting up?” And from that comes the second question which is, or a second answer that one should know the answer to is, what do you want?Shawn: The other problem or other area I see everyday is that, well you know you have a house that’s worth a certain amount, you know you have these retirement accounts, you know you have maybe a little credit card debt or whatever the case may be, but you don’t really have a clear sense of, “Well, what do I want when this process is over? What will I need to live?” Most of the people, at least that I deal with getting divorced, I like to say, “Look, you’re going to probably die these days at 100 years old. So if you’re 50, you’ve got 50 years of thinking and planning to do. What are you going to be thinking about over the next two or three or five decades? And are the decisions that you’re making right now, splitting up your family and your assets and everything else, are these really kind of what you want for the long-term and are they working for you?”Chris: Sure. And I mean, how do you help people engage in that conversation when … Because divorce is so life-changing, right? People tend to identify with what they’ve been for an extended period of time, especially in a long-term marriage. And then now, sometimes, am I right, would you say that sometimes they don’t even know what it is they want yet? Shawn: Yeah, it’s a great point. And one of the things that I try and tell everyone, which is very hard to do in practice, but actually makes a lot of sense is to depersonalize what you’re going through when it comes to making your decisions. Or the way I like to phrase it is, pretend like you’re the CEO of this process and you’re the businessman, businesswoman and what would just a rational person looking from 30,000 feet think about and would recommend for you and your situation? Meaning, if you’re going through a divorce, there’s any number of overwhelming emotions that make it hard to have any sort of clarity of thought. You know you have got a million questions, you’ve got to figure out this process, let’s forget all of that for a moment. Let’s just pretend that we take … Or the way I do it, or the way I speak about it with people, is let’s just take at least the asset part, the financial part. Let’s just put it all on a piece of paper. Your name doesn’t even have to be on it. It can John Doe or Jane Doe. What would you recommend Jane Doe for their future given what they have right now? And what do you think makes sense?Shawn: and once you kind of remove the you from it, I know it sounds weird, is to take yourself out of this process, but when it comes to making decisions, if you make emotions kind of cloud your judgment, that’s where people can go very far astray or end up making pretty poor decisions. Once you kind of depersonalize it a bit, you can really sit there and just treat them as X’s and O’s or numbers on a sheet of paper and say, “Hey! This person that I’m looking at on this piece of paper should probably do X instead of Y. Or take more of one asset or ask for more support, or ask for less support. And would be better off if we did whatever.”Shawn: And it becomes actually, for most people, a lot clearer pretty quickly once they take the me out of it.Chris: Sure. You got me thinking of the scenario where a party, they’re emotional to a home, and maybe the home is too big for the party by themselves,. The kids may be out of the house, the home might be too big already. But then you may have a, one of the party’s who are really attached to the home and they want to stay in the home but maybe the numbers don’t make sense and maybe if they were to keep the home, not only would they be keeping assets that are not going to generate any money for them in the future, I mean not really, unless you sell the house, it’s not a liquid asset.Chris: But they’re also, their standard of living is necessarily going down because they’re not going to have enough cash flow to do what they want to do. You know, so that’s a … Is that something, is that a problem that you … Is that a scenario –Shawn: That’s one of the most common things that I have to deal with on a daily basis. And the way that I teach people to think about it is before you decide what you want, start with your expenses. And so, the divorce process for most people, as painful as it is for most, is really only going to be a year or two of their life. And as I said earlier, you have decades to think about. Well, let’s start with, what is your life going to cost after this divorce? What is your mortgage payment or rent going to be? How much are you spending on cars and telephone bills and everything else. Once you kind of know – or your kids as well. Once you know what your expenses are, then you can start to say, “Well, all right, now I know at least how much income I need to stay even.”Shawn: And also you can say, “Well how much am I …”, and then you can start thinking about bigger questions like how much am I going to need for retirement or whatever else. But if you start with your expenses, things like that house that you have an emotional attachment to, you can see very quickly and very clearly that in many cases it’s not affordable. And you’ll see, like wow, you know if you’re spending … I’m just going to make up a number but if you’re spending 3,500 dollars a month on a house, and your income for a given year after a divorce is only going to be 5,000 dollars a month, it becomes very apparent that you don’t have much money for anything else.Shawn: And, once you just kind of map out – and when I say map out, I do things very simply. I take a blank sheet of paper and a pen and I say, “Let’s just do some simple math. How much is the house? How much is the car? How much are you spending on kids, clothes, going out, travel, vacations, whatever?” I just take a pen and a paper, nothing fancy, and just start writing down these kinds of things. And then once you have that kind of rough number, doesn’t have to be precise, you can start to think about is, well what is that really look like for me and start making the right decisions based upon that.Chris: Right, that’s a great way to do it, because … I think a lot about the stay at home mom because we represent a lot of stay at home moms and they just … Their responsibilities for the family have traditionally been kid-related stuff, maybe. Maybe the stay at home mom hasn’t traditionally had dollars and cents responsibilities. I mean, they’ll go out there and they’ll do the work and they’ll go do the shopping and all that stuff. But they may not be doing the budget and then it comes time, they have to now figure all of this out and they also have the great unknown of what their income is going to be when this is all said and done, and you know alimony will often play a big part in that.Chris: But if you don’t know what your expenses are, how are you going to know what is the money that you need outside of just saying, “We’ll get you the most amount of money possible.” Which is great, but it’s not really a great way to solve the problem. You just gotta know what you need and then try to get that and maybe some more. And I like your idea of just putting pen to paper with it because sometimes there are lawyers will do things that become a little cumbersome. Spreadsheets and it doesn’t really work. Sometimes simpler is better to help people, especially with so much else that’s going on in a divorce. So many other things to worry about, you know?Shawn: Yeah. There’s a lot to say about that point, particularly with the stay at home moms. I also work with many and there’s a variety of issues oftentimes with the stay at home moms. Sometimes a lack of confidence. I said you have to be the CEO of your divorce process. I’ll always say, because I talk to stay at home moms every day, everywhere, and I’ll say, “Hey, so, while your husband was working, who took care of the kids? Who took care of the house? Who took care of every other daily detail that happened?” And it was always them. And they have all of these skills in terms of managing a very complex life. They might not feel like they do, but they’ve been doing it for 10, or 20, or 30 years. And this is just one other challenge in that process. But they already have everything they need. They just need a little bit of guidance in terms of focusing that same energy they’ve had for a very, very long time.Shawn: And, as part of that, sometimes it’s, you know when I think about things that you need to do when it comes for planning for the process. Well, one big question is, we talked about the house. Sometimes I’ll say, “Well, let’s take some action towards it and find out. If you want to stay in the same neighborhood, why don’t you contact a real estate agent. See what houses are available in your neighborhood. You know particularly if your kids need to stay in the same school district.” I’ll say, “Go check out some apartments in the area. Are any of them feasible? Find out what the rent is for something that you could live with.”Shawn: It might not be the same, but sometimes just gathering some basic information that’s free, no cost to anyone, to call up a realtor and say, “Hey, I’m about to get divorced, or I’m in the divorce process, can you show me what some options are in the neighborhood?” Or, walking to the apartment building or driving over to the apartment building and say, “Hey, what’s a three bedroom in this area cost?” And those types of little steps, not very hard, and you can also start to crystallize, and you can say, “Hey, you know what? This three bedroom apartment actually could really work for me for the next few years while I get back on my feet.” Or you might say, “You know what? I’m priced out of my neighborhood. I need to think about what the right option for me in the long term.”Shawn: And it gives you the ability to confront reality head-on. Good or bad or anywhere in between. But at least you come through, or you start the process with some solid information so that you can make the right decision when it comes to going to mediation or talking with you or whatever else. It’s just you have a real, clear picture of what the future might look like, instead of just guessing and hoping for the best.Chris: a little bit of information goes a long way on the path. So that’s a great idea. And do you find yourself encouraging people to do that early in the process? In the middle of the process? When?Shawn: Yeah, it’s a good question. The answer is as soon as you can. You know, divorce is challenging of course, to understate it. And, you know, it’s not an instantaneous process even to get to the point where the D word gets dropped, much less serving papers and everything else. So, you know, it really depends. What I say is, the sooner you can figure these things out, the better. But, I have people who, and I actually am talking to someone in just a few minutes, who has to, has their proposals, their settlement proposals on the table. Right? And so the question is, well, does this make sense or should I be trying to make some adjustments? And some of the things that we’ve already discussed are going to be exactly that.Shawn: It’s like, “Hey, did you check to make sure that you’re going to be able to afford the house? Or be able to move to another place? Or be able to refinance? Or whatever the case may – or your spouse be able to refinance? If you go with this proposal, and if not, we gotta get these kind of details done now, so we make sure that we’re not walking you in to something that is not ideal for you.”Shawn: You know, the sooner you can plan the better. For the people that I get to work with before even papers are filed, I’ll say, “This is awesome. You’re going to go into your consultation with an attorney, with almost everything prepared, and your attorney is going to be able to take this job and do everything for you and I won’t need to talk to you again.” Other people, if you’re kind of still in the middle of the process, figuring things out, it’s okay, if you’re in the middle, so long as you’re starting to formulate that picture of what it is that you’re really aiming for.Shawn: I mean what I’m trying to say is that, if you don’t have a goal, you’re not shooting towards anything and you really need to have a clear sense of what your goal is for this process, otherwise your attorney, you aren’t as empowered as you could be to help them get to be where they need to be when this process is over.Chris: An awesome way of framing it. And we, again as an attorney, we’re always, we’re goal oriented. We have a process from the very beginning of getting them to conceptualize our clients and focus on their goals. But it can be easy to focus on goals that are more related to the divorce process and maybe kids, and sometimes, for however, it works out, because maybe our clients when they’re coming in, some of the issues we’re addressing at the beginning are more emotional. Sometimes the financial goals outside of minimizing my alimony payment, or maximize my alimony award, which isn’t very concrete, it isn’t very helpful. But outside of some of that stuff, we tend to maybe miss some of those financial goals from the very beginning. Whereas, if we have them from the very beginning, makes it easier to get people to where we need to get them to.Shawn: That’s exactly right. And you know the only thing that I would add to that is also if you have the goals, I say this all the time, is, once you have your goals written down, now’s a great time to talk to your attorney and make sure that your goals are reasonable. Because, you know, I see people who might say, “I don’t want to pay a dime of alimony and no child support and I want 100% custody.” And you’re like, “Your spouse is a decent human, even though the two of you don’t get along. That doesn’t seem like a reasonable case. You might want to think about those a little more.” But, you know, it’s having kind of a sense of what that is, so you know, my job, the way that I do view my job is to make them prepared for you.Shawn: And to, so that whatever time you spend with the client is maximized and you can do your job more effectively. You as the attorney and as the people listening are the people in charge of this process. And you know I’m sort of a support person, but you know, I want to make sure that what you’re doing and what I’m doing can kind of help them get to the best position possible.Chris: Absolutely. Before we go Shawn, do you have any like any tips to help somebody, whether it’s the husband or the wife, when they’re in the beginning of the process, maybe they’ve contacted me, maybe they haven’t, and they’re considering separation. And so, from a financial perspective, do you have any tips to help somebody who is thinking, “Hey, I think I need to get … I think for my own emotional wellbeing, I think I need to be in a separate household from my spouse. Obviously I’ll talk to a lawyer about things like custody and stuff like that. But what do I need to pull off from a financial perspective? And how do I get there?”Shawn: Yeah. I think the two things when it comes to separation. Some of the things that we’ve already discussed, but one is your credit report. Knowing what’s on your credit report. I have clients who make 100,000 dollars a year. I have clients who make 100 million dollars a year. You’d be surprised what’s on a credit report, and there are always surprises. And so just kind of knowing what that is. And then also, knowing what your expenses are. I mean look, when you’re separating, we’ve talked about expenses before, but, your income is going to be the same more or less, whether you’re married or in the separation process. The income part is semi-fixed. The expenses part is now all of a sudden doubling. And so you need to really understand is can you afford that? And what that looks like. Do you have enough savings? Do you have enough income? Do you have enough whatever the case may be that you need to separate.Shawn: And actually might add a third thing to that, is, separation can have other effects on the divorce process and so I always encourage my clients before taking that separation step, to talk to someone like you. You know, consultations are confidential. It’s not like, you know I have some clients who are afraid to step into an attorney’s office. I say, “Look, attorneys are confidential. No one’s going to know that you’re there. No one’s going to sign, put a billboard up in town that says, ‘They met with Christian’. It’s just so that you can understand your situation, the implications of what you’re doing and making sure that you ultimately protect yourself and don’t unintentionally run afoul of something that might come back to hurt you later.Chris: Absolutely. That’s right. I can help them with the legal pros and cons of separating, but you can help them with the practical if you separate, can you do it, and how will you make it work? And what’s it going to cost? Shawn, thanks so much man. I had a great time. I really appreciate you taking a few minutes to chat with me and ultimately chat with my clients and some people that are watching this just for advice. If somebody needs to reach out to you, what do they do? How do they do that?Shawn: Yeah you can visit me at divorceandyourmoney.com, and there’s a podcast by the same thing if you search any podcast player called Divorce and Your Money.Chris: Sounds pretty simple. Shawn, thanks.Shawn: Yeah.Chris: I appreciate it.Shawn: Thank you, Christian. Take care.

Chris: Yeah, yeah we're rolling. Yeah? Kat: Is there enough light? Okay, no that was already on. I think I'm becoming addicted to light. Chris: You've got it down. All right. Kat: Okay, we're live already. Chris: Yeah ... what? Kat: What, mother fucker- I get ... Chris: You're gonna have to redo it. Kat: I can't redo it. I'd have to- Chris: [crosstalk 00:00:30] Oh, no. No, that one's done. Yeah that's- Kat: This is live. We're already live. What you're saying is being heard. What I'm saying is being heard. Chris: That is so funny. Kat: I think people have heard it before. What's up? Chris: Yes, it's working. Kat: We are technological geniuses. Chris: We just did have it take off a certain [crosstalk 00:00:50]. Kat: We've made ... They didn't do much. Hey, I managed to get the internet working for a second and a half. Chris: Oh my God. Kat: Can we kick this off by telling people the quotes of the day, Chris? Chris: All right we can share this. Yeah, all right. Kat: So should I tell them one from the other day or is it gonna off our buyers? Chris: No, no, no, we share. We're truly authentic [crosstalk 00:01:08] Kat: We're here for authenticity. We are literally about to fu- ... We are about to launch. Am I allowed to swear? Chris: No. Kat: No? Chris: No swearing. Kat: Okay, sorry. We are literally about to launch our supplement. We get to that in a moment but first I'd like to tell you three very informative and important quotes that I've been noting down. Chris just ... This is a man who, when you meet him or you see him, even online, you'll see that he is one of the most genuine good guys in the world. Kat: He is the nicest man in the world. He's one of my closest friends. I love him to death, he is the nicest, sweetest, person. Would never hurt anything and yet he just comes out and then he seems very like ... Wow, that was quite rude. Chris: Sorry, that is true. Kat: So the other day we're like "What should we call our livestream for our prelaunch live stream which shoots on Friday?" And I'm like thinking of creative titles cause I'm awesome at that and he's like, "Can we just call it-" Chris: Headlines are key. Kat: "This is why you're fat and we're not." And I'm like, "Wow." Chris: Because within context as well, we were talking about ... Kat: Please explain. [crosstalk 00:02:12] Chris: How we used to do diets before we used to be massive carbophobes and then over lunch we were talking about how we're just been loving eating carbs but doing it the right way. And how much better in shape we are now. And it's just- Kat: Well this leads me into the next quote which i that well ... Chris: Yeah, nicely done. Kat: Which is that we set up the lighting, and I'm like "Damn, that lighting's good." And Chris goes "Damn, it's good." And he goes, "Or is it just cause we look so good?" I'm just like "Wow, just be matter-of-fact about it." Oh, do you need to share that to your page? Do you need to share that to your personal page? Chris: Yeah. I can, with you. Kat: Okay, so we are ... oh and what was the third quote? Chris: What was the third one? Kat: Damn it, there was another really good one from just a second ago. So there was the one about "This is why you're fat and we're not." There was "Is this lighting really good or it just cause we look really good?" And then there was another one that just happened just then and it was so funny. I nearly wrote it down and then I was like "No, there's no way I would forget that." It will come back to us divinely. Chris: Not sure. Kat: Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show. Chris: We've got some big news. Kat: We have huge news, I think we're not even allowing ourselves to be ... Chris: So exciting. Kat: As excited as we are. I know I think we're not letting ourselves be as excited as we really could or should be about this. I think we're excited and we're like this is a big deal, and I'm just like "No, but do you understand what a big deal it is?" Chris: This is a big deal. This is a really big deal. Kat: Two plus years in the making? Chris: It's even longer. Kat: I think it's three years [crosstalk 00:03:49] ... Chris: We can put this dick ends downs. Kat: I think it's like pre ... dick- really? We started to formulate this before time began in our souls. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Kat: That's how good we are. I got to the quote book, the intelligence was coming through divinely from generations before but in a physical human sense, maybe three years. Chris: [00:04:07] Particularly there's star dust in there. Kat: Well it's actually ... Yes. And gold dust. You get a little piece of my soul. That's some powerful stuff. Look what I've created. Chris: That's really funny. Don't worry about the lighting. We're good. Kat: Yeah, we're good. We're good with the lighting. So we might be a little bit excited. We might be coming across as a little bit extra hysterical than normal, but it is such a huge deal. And welcome, welcome, welcome to everybody. I'm so happy and grateful that you're here with us. Kat: Hello over on our business page and hello on our personal page, and hello wherever else you are. I am either going to talk excitedly in a hilarious or just randomly crazy way for now, or I'm going to just stop and let Chris present with deep profound wisdom. Chris: I'll chime in as well. Oh, always. Kat: All the things. But let's just quickly say ... Okay, Lisa just summed up the whole entire situation. Chris: Wee. Kat: He says, "Wee." That's exactly right. We have an amazing founding deal. Chris: Founding special. Kat: But we're not going to tell you about that now, because we've got too many other exciting things to say. Chris: Yeah, we've got some more important news. Kat: Okay, I'm done. Chris: Okay. Kat: For now. Chris: Well we haven't decided on everything at this moment. So we need to do this together. So this is actually like ... Kat: Co-creation. Chris: Exactly. We all need to come together right now and actually sort this out. Kat: Yeah. So just stop what you're doing, put it down. Chris: Because this is literally the only time you are ever going to get this special at this product, this price, ever. Kat: Ever. Obviously if you've been following Kat for any time and even myself, you'll know that we want to celebrate. Actually, you know what's really interesting? This little bit random, I actually went through the ... See, Kat you're looking gorgeous. Chris: Yeah, I'm all right as well. Kat: No, I think that's definitely for you, sorry. Not me. Oh, thank you. I'm going to take that. I'm taking it from here. Thanks, Lonny. Chris: Kat, how high can you go. Random segue, we actually just reviewed the ... With my other coaching business, reviewed what the key parts of what the most accessible coaches are doing right now. What was ... What have they done? There was two things that was actually really interesting. Chris: One was how long they've been in the programme and why they're succeeding. So it's a common factor, and two, was they always jumped on the programme as fast as possible. Kat: Of course. Fast action takers. Chris: I know, but it was actually really interesting for me to actually see it. Kat: Oh, it was actual research. Chris: Yeah, we actually went through everything. Kat: That's gold. I say that all the time. Chris: The most successful people. No, it's legit. Kat: Oh, hello. Yeah. Chris: Yeah, well, exactly. Fair enough. Kat: We literally became business partners over cauliflower. Chris: Cauliflower and chicken? Kat: I could have make that some more exciting. Well, there was one. But it was a two-second decision, wasn't it? Chris: Yeah, it was. Kat: It was. Oh, then you came around and we talked about it the next day again, but it had already obviously ... Really we're just joking around nothing. We did a hilarious life show together. Chris: Yeah. Kat: But that is so true, and I say that all the time when I'm working with high level badass entrepreneurs and creators. I always say, "I want to work with the people who say 'yes' straight away." Because that's like me, and those are the people who get awesome freaking results. So we're really here today not just to ... With such excitement and gratitude and passion launch our product, finally. Kat: But we're also here ... There it is. We're also here to really honour those people who already know that they want one of our ... Oh, look at Ryan. You couldn't have product placed him any better than the hat. Ryan says, "Is this the one I tried last year at your place? It tasted amazing." I think my second one did have vodka in it. All right, just hold the final ... Let's save the shenanigans part of what you can do with this for later. Kat: Let's just talk pure. In fact, it was very healthy in the process of my training. But yes. So we didn't even prepare that little bit of testimonial earlier at all from Ryan who says it tastes amazing. It tastes freaking amazing. Okay, I'm getting distracted again. Continue on. Chris: Okay. There's a few things that we've all got to sort out right now. One, when you actually have to get onboard these founders special. Two, we're going to share with you actually how much of a discount that you're going to get and that's a lifetime discount as well. So we're going to make this as much of a no brainer as possible. Kat: Oh, I just remembered the other quote. Chris: Oh, what was the other quote? Kat: It was I said to you, "Is that really sneaky?" And you said, "Yeah." I really like it. Chris: Okay, just kind of side note, that was ingenious business strategy that we actually did when you just said we ... Kat: Because I'm a ninja. As I proved to you earlier. Chris: We share that later. We share that later. Keep business strategies coming down on this as well. It's all working. So two things we're going to work out. One, when you actually have to get on board by, because this can only last so long and we're going to have to cut it right now. So this, it's actually going to be pretty limited. Because we can only take so many people on board. Kat: Yeah. Chris: Two, the discount you get, which is a lifetime discount. And you know what? Three, we actually just added in. Sorry, for the first 100. First 100? Kat: Oh, I thought it was going to be 50. You're seriously pulling this up for 100 people? Chris: I want to be really nice, because I wore my give shirt today. Because I want to give. Kat: Oh, I want to cut it off really. I like to make people jump on board or work for it. Chris: No, we'll do 100, because there's a lot of ... Yeah, okay. No. Kat: All right, that means I have a point saved for later to make a decision about something. Chris: All right. You got one brownie for later. One video for later. Kat: I'll get to be in charge of something later. Chris: First hundred people that are going to be coming on board, you're going to get a copy of my book, "Craving the Truth", which is actually the book where I show you how to be able to get into the best shape of your life, and how to not do it by doing depriving diets, which we have right here. Tada. Kat: There it is. Fabulous book. Chris: So you'll get a copy of "Craving the Truth" as well coming on board in this, but we can only do that for the first hundred. Kat: For free. Extra fast action, take a bonus. On top of the crazy discount. Oh, wait. Do we make them pay full price if they're getting a book? Chris: I don't want to have to make them pay full price. Kat: All right. Why not? I was just trying to be funny. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's fine, because my lighting's fabulous. Chris: Yeah. You look good, life is good. So if you want a copy of the book for free, where I give you the diets. We talk work outs. We talk actually what Kat and I are doing. You're going to have to get on board really quick as well, but also, lifetime discount. Can we tell them how much the discount is? Kat: No, make them work for it. Send a love heart shower. Chris: Oh, yeah, I love how you do this. Kat: A load of love hearts, and we're just going to tell them the office straight away. Just like that? Chris: Melissa. Kat: Hi. Chris: Thanks, Mel, appreciate that. Kat: Yeah, there you go. Chris: It's a great pull. Kat: Let's. So we just give ... Whoa, you guys loving the love heart shower. Thank you. Chris: Whoa. Kat: Do you want a comment something hilarious or just comment get on with it already? Chris: Let's have best comment. I will just give you a copy of the book straight away. Kat: I can't talk through this offer, because I'm going to get too giggly and excited like a little kid at Christmas, and I'm not going to get the details right. I'm trying very hard to restrain myself here, but I'm so excited. So Chris is going to tell you the deal with it. It's literally more crazy than what we thought we were going to do. We dropped down an extra ... We actually dropped down an additional ... Chris: No, let's prepare for lunch. Kat: Over an additional 20 percent on what was already the reduced founding members price. Chris: Yeah, it was. Kat: Wait, did you just say they get to lock it in for life? Chris: Yeah, it's lifetime. Kat: I thought we were just giving that for the first month. Chris: Lifetime. This is exactly. Kat: What? Chris: When you get on board, but here's the thing. When you get on board, you get it for life. If you ever leave. Kat: You're out. Chris: Never get it again. Kat: We're never talking to you again. Chris: No. We'll talk to you, but you just want to get the discount again as well. Kat: If you buy us a drink. Chris: You've got to ... You actually get the discount for life. Kat: Yeah, that makes sense. Chris: That's a bit of a no brainer. Kat: That is a no brainer. Couple of no brainers. I'll eat anything that tastes delicious, especially if it helps me look that pretty. Thank you. Chris: Oh, that's really sweet. Kat: That's all the alignment. I'm reverse ageing. When you ordered this product, you will reverse age from between two and five years in the first 10 days. Chris: We can't say that. Kat: Hashtag disclaimer. I just it. Chris: The FDA does not agree with that at all. Kat: Shut up. Chris: I have to be legitimate with this stuff. Kat: I mean it. I mean it, because I decided, and I get what I decide. Can we just bring the mindset side into it? It's fine. When you sign up I'll get you a special training for free on the reverse ageing. How's that for a bonus? Chris: All right. Kat: Oh, let's have that in as a top 100 bonus. I will do a training on how I reverse age for free for the first 100 people, and I'm not kidding. Chris: I'll buy that. Kat: Look at this skin. I'm nearly 50. Chris: That's very funny. Kat: Well I'm 38. I'm nearly 39. But I'm reverse ageing at the speed of light. Everybody knows that. Chris: No, actually ... This gets really good. What we haven't actually said as well is if you get on board this offer today, you will be able to join the tribe. So what we're starting in part is our private tribe, yeah. Kat: Oh, yeah. We're getting to our programme. Chris: It's going to be a little bit ... It's probably something we should talk about right now as well. Kat: Wait, do we actually? No, this is for real now. I'm not pretending. Are we actually giving them that? Chris: Yeah, they get a private group. It's already set up. Kat: Oh, of course. Yes, all right, fine. Onward then. Chris: This is stupid. Kat: Okay, I'm done. I'm done with my talking. I've got the entertainment, and now Chris is going to tell you the deal. The deal is about to drop. We are going to give you a link. You're going to click it, you're going to buy, and you're going to have a glass of water to celebrate, since you don't have the product yet. I'm waiting. Chris: Well you do have to wait. Kat: But we'll drink something in your honour. Chris: You do have to wait. So let's break this on down. Number one, first 100 people, I'll give you a copy of the book and I'll send it straight to you. Number two, you get the discount for life, and it's over 40 percent the discount as well. So that's a bit of a no brainer as well. Kat: We want to make it crazy no brainer for sure, legitimately of course. Chris: Yeah, I know. Three, you get access into ... whilst you have your membership, whilst you're getting this each month sent to you, you have access into the tribe, which is where Kat and I are going to be sharing with you what we do with our food, with our diets, with our training. I'm going to be in there giving you as well, because I've got literally 12 months worth of training, nutrition and lifestyle coaching ready to rock 'n' roll for you. Chris: So you'll get access into that private community where it's members only in there, and then ... Kat: That's got content from both of us, which is combining over 30 years of experience and knowledge and application and results. If you can, have some brain power. Chris: We literally needed a team member to go through how much content we had. Kat: It was several staff members who had to go through that and have been doing it for nine months. Chris: I feel so sorry for Jess actually. Kat: And Mim, shout out to Mim. And Jess too. Chris: And Mim. Yeah, sorry, too. Bingo. Kat: And shout out to Ash and Bron as well who've had so much to do with this launch and does so much work on that. Chris: I wish they were here. I got a notification on my page. Kat: I just was reading it over actually. Really. Chris: Okay, awesome. So you get the book. You get 40 percent discount and that's for life. You get access into the tribe as well. Now what we're going to do ... Kat: We were going to ... Sorry. I know I'm just terrible at cutting you off. I'm the worst at that. But we were going to charge for the tribe. We were going to do it as a separate. Chris: No, we are going to charge for the tribe. Kat: Yeah, but we were going to make it like you would pay a bit extra to get the coaching platform, as well as the product, and then it would be extra, extra for people who just wanted the coaching, which is basically means stupid people, because why would you not buy this? Then we decide to give it for free. Chris: So if we actually boil this down right now. Kat: Yeah. Chris: What the offer is is the super food blend will actually be recommended retail for $97. The tribe, our coaching community that's private for members only, that's actually priced at $50 a month for that. So obviously that's $150 a month, but if you get on board now, can we say it? Kat: Let's just do it. We've dragged it out long enough. They've been waiting and wanting. Chris: If you get on board now, you will get everything, which is sent to you each and every month, and your monthly membership into the tribe, and it's only going to be for $59. So we're cutting off $90 every month, and that's a life time discount going into it. So literally, there's a massive discount. So that's something like ... It's a gigantic discount. Kat: Whatever it is. Chris: First 100 people, I'll send you a copy of the book for free. Kat: And you'll get my reverse ... And you'll get my training on reverse ageing if you're in the first 100 people as well, which is completely serious. Chris: All right, Ricky. So Ricky asked a really good question. Can you consume it if pregnant? Now with supplements, you do technically have to say and you'll see on the back here, "Caution, if pregnant or nursing or taking medication, consult your health care practitioner before use." Kat: It's required to say that. Chris: My Lauren, wife, she has been pregnant with two children whilst taking this and my daughters have this as well. So when they ask for chocolate, they're actually asking for this bad boy. Kat: Yeah, I give this to my kids as well. Who are young as you know. It's required to say that. It's required to obviously that you've got to consult with your medical adviser that. Chris: Yeah, good question. Kat: I would take it. Lauren took it, etc. I just want to also clarify, really we had it locked in that launch offer ... That the retail price, the price that we will be selling it at. It's not just like what we're saying is retail. We will be selling it at $97. We were going to do the founding members offered at I think $79. That was locked in, and that was decided. Even up until last Friday. Kat: We did the pre-launch video and had some fun with that on Friday. You might have jumped on on that. Oh, we were supposed to notify people. I will send them a link after this, yeah. Chris: Yeah, we'll send them. Kat: I can't even remember why we decided to drop it down so much more. I think we just ... We get so excited. We are so proud of this and so excited and it's been so much work and blood and sweat and tears that's gone into this on Chris' behalf. I really just want to honour him. He's an amazing business partner and friend, and the work that he's put in. Literally travelling the Earth to create pharmaceutical great product in the world. Kat: It is literally the most exceptional formulation that you could come up with. Digestive health, probiotics, all this good stuff, but then also, working together with somebody that you're obviously good friends with, that's not automatically enough to make a great business partnership as I know a lot of people know. Chris: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Kat: So it's just been amazing to have a shared vision for something that we're both so excited to bring to life. It's been a little painstaking at times to get to where we're already, but like any amazing vision brought to life, you've got to be willing to go through those periods where it's things are going slow than you want or you thought something was just going to work, and then it didn't. Kat: So it's been quite the journey, and it's been one that's been heavily supported by the people we just mentioned and shouted out earlier as well. So there's a lot that's going into this and it really is. It's such a big deal. It's something that we know that we're going to take for life, be proud of for life. We really trust and belief that when you start to take this, firstly, the taste of it is incredible. It just tastes amazing. It's chocolate flavoured greens powder. It's flavoured naturally with cacao. Kat: It tastes incredible. Every single person who tried it is like, "Holy crap, where can I get this? I want to take this forever." So we know you're going to love the taste, but the benefits and the health side of it, the brain power side of it. The mineral focus side of it. The fact that you're just getting all these good things covered for yourself and your family in one hit. We know that you're going to be part of this for life as well. Kat: So this is something that for long haul it's not just business on the side of our respective empires that we already have. We really see it as a vision for the community that we want to build of like-minded individuals, like us, like you who are committed to being about us in every aspect of life. In business we brain function, and looking and feeling hot AF as well of course. Kelly says can you use it if diabetic. Chris: Yeah, you can. It actually says on here "diabetic safe". Where did I actually have to say that? Here. Last bullet point. No, extras. No extra added sugar. It is diabetic safe. It is only flavoured with stevia. So you only use the really good stuff. Please post the ingredients out. Yeah, Angela if you click the link that you'll get access to ... Kat: We could give the link. Chris: I will give you the link. If you click the link, you'll get access to the page which has the full ingredients on there for you. So you can actually read this rather than me sticking this up to the camera. It's still not being readable as well. Now, what we also have done is we put a 60-day guarantee on this. So we want you to taste it. Kat: That's how confident we are. Chris: We want you to use it. Exactly. That's how much we ... We're a little bit cocky when it comes to this. Because we know it's that good. We've been using it for that. Angela, you're absolutely welcome. So we want you to get your hands off it ... On it. When you get your hands on it, and you start using it, you'll see. You'll actually notice the difference as well. So what you want to be able to do is number one, it's not about supplements. Chris: Now let's just talk right now. I want to jump in and talk about ... Yeah, sorry, go. Kat: Should I give the link or should we give them preparation that I'm going to give you the link, because we are doing this first hundred thing. Chris: Oh. Kat: Let's tell you what we want to tell you, so that you're paying attention, and then we're going to drop the link. Chris: Okay, let's do that. Kat: Yeah. Chris: We'll jam real quick, and then we'll give you the link so that you can get access to all this stuff right now. So I want it in my mouth right now. Kat: All right. Well, it's a sensory experience, and you can tap into the collective energy. That's right here in this space and place. Here is some we prepared earlier. Chris: Jaya, can you put your email below and I will literally send you a copy of my book, because that was the best comment so far. Kat: Comment of 2018 award. We're adding that to our book of hilarious quote. But we will drink some in honour of everybody. You can tap into our collective energy. Chris: Right, cheers. So I'll answer Theo's question. So this is what we're doing. Because we're doing the very first batch, for all of our members with this super food blend, it's going to take between three to four weeks for everyone to get there. So that's why we're doing this founders special. So we want everybody to come on board. Now, and this is what I want to say and this is why it's so important. Kat: Yeah. Chris: It's not about supplement. Kat: That's why we're doing a huge discount. Chris: It's not about the supplements. Jaya, thank you so much. Can someone remind me to send Jaya a copy of that? Kat: Yes, I'll email you right now. Chris: Or just ... perfect. It's not about supplements, okay? So why are we actually talking right now? Why are we starting a health and fitness company? Why are we wanting to help you with this stuff? It's because you want to be able to look, feel, and function great. You want to be a part of the one percent of the one percent. You want to look great. You want to feel great. You actually want to perform really well, and that's not just the body performing on a biochemical level. It's how your brain performing as well, and you're actually enjoying it. Chris: How do we actually do this? It's not just by taking a supplement. Supplement's the cherry on the top, and we're going to be the first people that now run a supplement company to tell you it's not abut the supplements. This is why we're doing the tribe. So we help you, we show you, we teach you. We're giving you actually what's needed when it comes to, what to eat, how to eat, how to set up your lifestyle. What about when it comes to your work outs? When it comes to your movement as well. Chris: So especially when I break it down in the book, I show you the actual workouts and there's a yang and a yin philosophy. So like a yang, this is going to be a white training. A yin, it's going to be a walking. It's going to be your saunas, your ice punch pools, your meditations, all these kind of things. Kat: Yoga. Chris: Yoga. All these things we need to be able to put together. So it's a holistic approach to giving you exactly what you need. That's why when I first ... One of the reasons, our first conversation, we're like, "Hang on, there's a lot of 'supplement companies' out there and they're doing sometimes great products, sometimes crappy products. Let's not even go down that path." What's missing right now? No one's giving you both. No one's giving you here's the great ... Literally world best formulations, raw products, and manufacturing process. Kat: And taste. Chris: And taste. Which is kind of the most ... It's not technically the most important thing. But it's the most important in the sense that you're not going to take it if it doesn't taste amazing. It tastes so good that you just ... You want to have more. You just want more. I was crying when mine ran out. My samples that I had at home. Kat: Yeah, I had to get more for Kat. Chris: I had to have a massage to get over it. Kat: And a meditation, and some prayer. Some prayer. Then I may have harassed him over what's happened. I literally once was tapping in from every city around the world going, "So can you send some to New York? How about Florida? How about Texas? How about LA?" Chris: I tried to send it to her in two different cities. Kat: But I kept moving too quickly. Chris: And it kept missing. Kat: Come in San Diego, take me around. Chris: Obviously what I want to get across to make sure that we do this right is while we're doing the tribe is so literally Kat and I can give you what's needed to be able to make sure that you look, feel and function the way that you want. It is literally like that. Then when you want to put the cherry on top, when you want to perform. Because this is the thing and I talk about this. Chris: Number one, that our food quality that get isn't as good as it should be. You're not getting all the nutrients. You're not getting everything that you really need at the end of the day to be performing your best. We have high stress levels in our modern lifestyle. We have a lot of chemicals in our environment that help us become toxic. So we want to be able to become un-toxic. We want to be able to get rid of that stuff. Chris: So this is why we started with literally a greens formulation. But it's not a greens formulation. This is ... Kat: So much more. Chris: A super veggie type antioxidant blend. It's got a fruit antioxidant blend. It's got digestion support, and it's got a probiotic blend in here as well. So this is why we want to try and you come at this, because the thing at the end of the day is I don't want you to have a covered or room full of supplements. You want a handful of things, and that's what we're going to be doing, Kat and I together. We're going to be coming together. Kat: There would be new products. Chris: And are really doing a few products that give you the biggest bang for your bucks. So you can actually get on with your life. Because what I don't like is trying to do so many different things, that when we have more important things to do, I don't want to be worrying about my diet, or my work outs, or I'm not looking as I good as I feel like I should be. Or all that kind of shit. Chris: I'm a dad. I am running businesses. I want to be able to enjoy life. I want to be able to have us come together and just have fun. I don't want to be absolutely hating life because I'm doing a dive. Kat: You want to look and feel your best and be your best, and be fitting everything in but doing it just with ease and flow as well. We both, this is another thing. We've both done the hustle life before. I love the word hustle by the way. For me that means something powerful and flow based, but what I mean is we've both done business and life and fitness in way where it was kind of burning yourself out or pushing beyond a healthy limit and that's nothing I look back on and regret, because it made me into who I am now. Kat: But at this point in my life, and for both of us as well, it gets to be about having it all whilst operating at a level of excellence. Feeling your best, looking your best, being at your best, and having it jus be flow and ease. So there's already so many things that each of us do and support our communities to do that create that just through lifestyle and the way we choose to live our lives and live according to our values and so on. Kat: This just takes it to that next level. It's about enhancing a way of life. So that's again another reason why we've created the tribe to go with this to support you with the education, the information, and the empowerment, to get the results that you need. So we will be giving you the nutritional information literally over 30 years or at least over 25 years of combined experience between us. Chris: Over 24 years. Kat: At a really high level as well, where both of us really dedicated our money and our time to learning and studying with the best people in the world, and that's how we met. Through classes around the world. We're bringing you the most cutting edge, real nutrition information, hormone information, fat loss information, digestions, stress management, sexual energy and libido as well. All ties in together. Sleep quality. Kat: Mindset, of course, right? The ins and outs of the trainings side of it as well as the nutrition side of it, and we're teaching from a standpoint of full life in a way that feels amazing. It's not a freaking diet. It's not a quick fix. It's not do this for six weeks or 12 weeks. We're bringing to you our combined experience of well over two decades, and where we can look back and go, "We did all that crazy stuff and maybe you did as well." Kat: It is what it is. Now we actually have a way of living where we get to look and feel and function at a standard of excellence 24/7 always. It's just how it is. We don't sacrifice anything in order to look our best and feel our best. We know that you don't have to as well. So this is not come on board, our magical diet that's going to fix you, and then you're left floundering afterwards, rebounding back. Kat: This is make some small simple adjustments that are going to immediately feel amazing for you. You're going to be immediately be elevated internally and in your energy and your emotions, and even dare I say spiritually, because of course it heightens everything. You're going to see those physical shifts and changes as well. I get asked all the time. I know Chris gets asked all the time, "How we can be such busy, successful entrepreneurs both with our own families and small children, and still get to have ... be in great shape and be legitimately healthy and brimming with energy, and have the energy to do all those things?" Kat: That's so easy. We let it be so easy. It's such a small amount of time or energy that creates such a massive return on that. So everything that this is about. Like Chris said, it's not just a supplement. It's you get this amazing supplement and you get everything that since ... Yes, hold it up. Everything that's inside of us that we've taken all this time and effort and working with literally tens of thousands of clients between us over the past, decade plus, in order to just know what works for life. Kat: So I said at the start of this that I feel like I can't fully express what a big deal it is, and I feel like maybe I'm now starting to express what a big deal it is. But should we? Do you want to add something there or should we give them this link? Chris: I think we should give them the link. Kat: I don't know why I feel nervous. So hang on. Chris: It's good. Kat: Should we give them the link to the Facebook group as well or we just give them this link? Chris: No. Kat: No. Chris: The what? Kat: No, the one from the other day I meant. All right. We'll figure that out later. Chris: Oh, no, give them that link. Kat: Okay, so now, are you ready? Are you excited? Are you eager? Are you going to send me another love heart shower? Are you ready to click by pull out your credit card, get it at the ready, and here's what you're going to do. In about 19.5 seconds or however long it takes me to stop talking, I'm going to ... Which could be 19.5 years. I'm going to put this thing into the comments here. Kat: You are going to click the link. You are going to grab your credit card. You're going to run to the back of the room, and you're going to purchase this product. Chris: All right, hang on. Kat: Hang on. You're only supposed to say three things. That's what I'm telling from this stage, wait. Get your credit card, click the link, buy the product, be in our top 100, get Chris' book for free. For being a fast action taker badass, just like we are, you know your life is going to change for life, and you get a free book as well. It is amazing. And you get my free training on reverse ageing. Chris: I'm really excited for that. Kat: Me too. Yeah. I'll give you the link. I'm ready. This is it. This is it. This is the moment of truth. Chris: They just want us to getting it taken out really quick. I would literally be ... Kat: Yeah, I'd be running to the back of the room or to wherever your credit card is. Chris: Oh, God. Oh, shit. Just happened. Kat: We just? Did we just break the internet. Boom, boom, boom. Okay, I feel like we needed to prepare the drummer as a roll sound. I could have played when I did that. I actually feel like I need to take a breath. Chris: Oh, that's good. Oxygen's really good as well. To set fire. Kat: Can I just add that to quotes? Quotes from Chris. Oxygen is really good for you. Okay, what else are we going to say? Chris: Oh. Kat: Oh, did you tell them to comment there? Or are they just saying how it is over there for the fun of it? How did that just start happening? Chris: I don't know. Kat: Is it because they clicked this? Chris: I have no idea. Kat: What happens? Chris: Yes, it is. Kat: Oh. Chris: Oh, we can see everyone coming through on this one. Kat: We can see who's signing up. Chris: Going up. Kat: Go, go, go, go, go. Oh, we can see all the notification. Chris: I didn't ... This is ... Kat: Tamara's in. Michelle clicked the link. Sarah clicked the link. Chris: That's really funny. Kat: Come on, keep going. All right, and oh, when is this? Ooh, Thalika. She's on it. Just on it. Chris: Laura. Kat: All right. This is so exciting. Chris: This is so fun. Can I share? This is more exciting. I remember when I did my very first online fitness launch. Kat: Laura can't click. Chris: I had the PayPal app on my phone. And when I did the launch, it was like my PayPal app on my phone make a little ding noise. Or no, like a payment would have gone through. This is more exciting because it's a hell of a lot more people coming through. Kat: Sage says, "I can't click." You might have to try different device, because people are definitely clicking. And it's working. So how's this, though? It is so exciting. Last night I was out with a friend, and she's like, "So, what are you doing tomorrow? I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm doing whatever and whatever." Then I'm like, "Oh, and I'm just launching a supplement company with my friend Chris till 11:45. Kat: It's like, "Wow, this is huge." That would be huge. We're just quickly launching a supplement company that we're going to take. Angela says, "I can't click on iPad." What can we do about that if people can't click on some devices? Do you have it? Because this is the mo ... Do you have a different link? A longer one? Chris: Can you comment back then or? Kat: No. Chris: PM them? Kat: Do we have a different version of that link? Chris: No. Kat: No, I don't know what to do about that. Ash and Bronwyn, are you on? Chris: What's your problem? The request to the group. Theo. Did you click the link Theo, that Kat has just given you? Kat: Okay, one second. We tested this 1600 times. We will not be swayed. I'm clicking it now. Chris: It's definitely working. We're seeing people still coming through. Kat: Okay, so when I click that, it goes me to Facebook messenger. Chris: Don't worry, Theo. We'll get your link. IPhone can, iPad can't. Kat: It's taking me to Facebook messenger when I click it. Is that right? Chris: Yeah. Kat: Then where is the link that they're going to get that message to them? Chris: The link to ... Yeah. So we'll send you to Facebook messenger, and then Bronwyn said type it in. Kat: Then you've got to press get started. Chris: Then I should maybe put zero admin. Yeah, see, there you go. Kat: Okay. So when you ... We thought we tested it all, whatever. So when you click it, it's going to take you to Facebook messenger. It may not work on the iPad. Then it's going to ... Then you're going to click get started, and then it's going to start, "This is MBB Bot. The My Body Blend's Messenger System." Chris: Oh, my God. Kat: It will say it in that voice. Then it will say, "Do you really want access to a secret launch of Super Food Blend?" It will say it in that voice. Then you'll press "hell yes," which I'm doing now. Hell yes, I just did it. Now it says, "Awesome Katrina, click the prelaunch of verboten below to get our one-time only freelance offer for ..." Okay, I feel that we're being repetitive. For our brand new Super Food Blend. Kat: Plus, if you think there's anyone else who might need to know. I mean why would you take him in unless you want them in the top 100? So now I'm clicking that link, wait for it. Shana says, "Get started." I see you guys on it, just on it. Chris: It's really cool how I can see you from one and then comes through to the other one. Kat: This is a genius. Chris: Theo, you figured that out, great job. Kat: This is a genius strategy. I just got through the sales page. Chris: Can't believe this works. Kat: Right here, live, on this live stream. There it is. Chris: So this is only for the private launch. So obviously once this gets closed down, you're not going to get ... Kat: Take it out. You can't get in on this deal again. Chris: Yeah, you can't get access to this, because we can't keep this up forever. Kat: So talk them through what are they going to receive once they then signup and purchase. Chris: Cool. Kat: Because just a reminder that the product is going to come. Explain all that. Chris: Yeah. So obviously the founders special with what we're doing today is we're doing our very first batch, and you're going to be a part of this. So it's going to take three to four weeks for you to get your actual first Super Food Blend delivered. We're going to be sending it straight to you, but that's why we also have the MBB tribe. So the tribe is going to be where Kat and I are going to be in there making sure that you get access to what's going to be the right meal plan, the right workouts. Chris: I'm going to be in there doing live streams, answering your questions. Kat's going to be talking about anti-aging. Plus, if you get in first 100, which honestly it might be taken up already. I don't know, you're going to have to just get on board. Kat: Just go, go, go. Chris: I'm going to give you a copy of "Craving the Truth". That's going to break down literally what you need to be doing with your meals, with your workouts and lifestyle, and what we're also going to be doing is this special that you get access to today is for life. If you stay on board with this, that means you get this lifetime discount. Chris: So normally Super Food Blend. This has got the RLP of $97 just for one. The actual tribe, that sells for $50 a month. That's $150, but you get access to it today for only $59. So that's a massive discount. I don't know percentage was, what it is, because I'm horrible at math and that's okay. Melissa. Yay, got my confirmation email. So there we go. Kat: Yay, celebrate. Chris: It's coming through already. So that's fantastic. So we want to make sure that everybody come on board because we've got a couple wait up our sleeve. Like tomorrow I'm going to be jumping on board doing a live show, walking you through how we actually get the right meal plan, because what we start with, this is a little bit of secret sauces, how I kick start fat loss is what I do is we do a 14-day metabolic restart. Chris: So what we do is actually in the first 14 days we actually get your body to learn to burn body fat. Now most people are trying to talk about how do I speed up my metabolism? That's actually the wrong question I believe, because let's think about the analogy of driving a car. People are saying, "How do I speed up my metabolism?" They're just thinking about, "How can I drive my car faster?" But what if your car is actually heading in the wrong direction? Chris: So you just say, "Going in the wrong direction faster." So what we got to do first is make sure that you go in the right direction, which is how do you get your body to actually tap into body fat stores, how do you actually burn body fat for fuel. Then we talk about actually speeding our fat loss. But what we do is once we actually get your body tapping into body fat stores effectively, then we actually start talking about stress. Chris: So what the biggest problem is to me people are stressed. They've got too high cortisol levels. They started throwing other things like testosterone, pregnenolone, all these ... Actually, let's not go down the whole monogram, because that's going to be too complicated right now. But what we're going to do is we turn your body into actually being able to burn body fat for fuel first, then we talk about actually being able to lower stress. Chris: So what you'll find is most people when first getting the guides and plans I'm going to be sending through to you, think it's too easy and there's not enough. But you'll find that your body will actually be able to lose weight faster, because we're doing things easier. Because what's the biggest problem so many people fall into and I know we've done it before is you decide that you're going to lose weight. So what do you do? Chris: You cut your foods down, you ramp up your workout. Kat: Do some drastic random stuff. Chris: You do more, more, more, more, more, and then what happens when you hit the plateau? Because you will hit hit the plateau. Kat: What happens is you crack it and eat a freaking container of cookies. Chris: Yeah, exactly. Kat: If you're a woman. Chris: If you're a man as well. Kat: I never did this. Chris: I did. Kat: Okay. Chris: That's the big problem. So you wind up crack it, and you start binge eating, and then you feel guilty, and that's bad. So mentally that's bad. Or you actually have to start eating less and less and less, because you're trying to get to that deficit. So what we do is we say, "Let's actually do a bottoms up approach." So let's start from the bottom and we actually build your food, so you'll see that we actually increase your food intake. So you're actually eating more and losing weight, because the whole just eat less move more scenario, it's a myth. Kat: Boring. Chris: I wrote a freaking book about the myth of it, and it's not fun at all. Kat: Yeah. I just love everything you said. I love how you're just on a ... Did this stuff just comes out of you because you're so passionate about it and you know it so well? Chris: I know I did it wrong for so long. Kat: It is what we live and breathe. It is just ... I think you can see your passion coming through right, and you're just going to continue to get so much more of that and all of our knowledge and learning and support and accountability through being part of this tribe. So originally we will ... completely keep them two separate products. The coaching platform versus the product. Kat: Then we're like, "No, of course we're going to honour the people who buy this amazing thing, and really are committed to change their lives, not just to taking a supplement." The thing is I don't know. There's so many more things that I probably could say. But I think we've kind of covered the best of it, and we're just so excited to welcome you. We can see people ... Thank you and it says thank you. Kat: We can see people over on ... So we've got Chris. My friend here and Chris' friend here. Chris' friend is hooked up to the My Body Blend's page. So that's where you go when you click the link, you'll go to the Facebook messenger of the My Body Blend's page which is our joint business page. You'll then follow the prompts there, and you'll jump on to the sales page that way. So we can see people's responses that are coming up on his phone, which is super cool. Kat: So this is ... It's just huge. It's the bringing to life of something that's been several years in the making in the physical sense. 10 plus years of friendship in the making, decades of learning and knowledge in the making, something I always wanted to do. Something I know Chris always wanted to do, and what an incredible thing to be able to do this with somebody who you have such a close friend in your life, but who you know is also going to deliver the level of support and empowerment for your tribe, that you would do yourself. Kat: That's just such a huge big deal when being in business is somebody else to know that their work ethic and how they shop and their level of passion and commitment to change people's lives is the same. So this is the beginning of an amazing journey for you. If you are joining us, how long will we be keeping the founders special open for? Chris: I only wanted to do ... Kat: We had a little fight about it. Chris: Yeah. That's all right. We're allowed. But what about if we do for just 24 hours? Kat: What? Chris: No, we don't do it in 24 hours. Come on, I'm not the queen of scarcity. I'm making people move fast, but I feel like we could give them. But it doesn't matter, because you would just click and buy it now anyway, otherwise you would have been in the top 100, and you'd be a crazy person. Kat: Well how long do we let this video run for then? Because we have to take this video down. Chris: I feel like I don't know what the answer is that I'm supposed to say now. I feel like we didn't rehearse this properly. That is because we didn't rehearse it. Kat: We didn't. Chris: Yeah. I didn't really walked in and be like, "Let's do it with the camera on." Kat: Let's just turn the camera on and see what happens, apart from running down funny quotes. Chris: What do you want to say to them? Kat: Did you see that I've written down your quotes over here? I've saved it. I've written down the three quotes so far from Chris if you missed the quotes earlier. The quotes were this. He wanted to call our live show "this is why you're fat and we're not". That was one of my quotes of the year from Chris. Another one is that really sneaky? Me asking about a little Ninja trick. He's like, "Yeah." Chris: We just don't cover a really good Facebook ad strategy. Kat: That is good. Chris, that lighting is so good, Kat. Wait, no, it's just because we look so fabulous. That's my personal favourite. Chris: I'm so happy with that. Kat: Well, I think this is it. Chris: All right. We're going to get busy. Kat: Okay, is this? This is? Chris: Yeah, I know. I just saw these already gotten on board. Kat: I didn't ... See, that didn't happen for me. But if you have any issues or concerns at all, or anything doesn't work for you, maybe test it on a different device. Some people did say it doesn't. Didn't work on iPad. I'm not sure why that would be, but it's definitely working for me on my laptop. It's working on the phone. Of course you compare either of us. Or the My Body Blend's page as well, which is probably the best place to go, because then you'll get supported by our team as well and get answer as quickly as possible. Kat: Seeing infomercial broker, I feel like we got so much gold content. You know what's going to happen now. My team will chop up this live stream, get some clips out of it, caption them up, and we'll just be promoting and having a hilarious time. Shouldn't business and life just get to be fun as well? So that's part of our philosophy and part of what we're here to show you. Chris: You're not having fun, you don't enjoy the life. Kat: You can bet your bottom dollar we're going to be having all sorts of shenanigans in that group once you're in there. Because it's how it should be. That's how it gets to be. All right. Chris: Oh, good. Theo got ... Kat: Oh, you're on. Perfect, Theo. Chris: Confirmation done. Kat: Yay, I'm so excited. Chris: All right, awesome. So we've actually got to get to work, because we've got a lot of members. Kat: Just casually launched a supplement company on a Monday morning in Bali. All right, we're going to go hangout with our members. We're going to see what's up. We're going to see you on the inside, click the link, do the thing, be in the thing. We'll see you in the thing. We love you. Chris: Ciao. Kat: Bye.

Happy New Year, everyone! In this week's episode, the gang talks about everyone's favorite part of New Year's --- the resolutions. Why do people usually fail at keeping them? What are the typical resolutions for the New Year? What does the gang hope for in this next year? And where is Chris? All this and more, at the Roundtable!

The show's two hosts discuss what will be covered in future episodes of the Bally Alley Astrocast. Recurring links: BallyAlley.com - Bally Arcade / Astrocade Website What's New at BallyAlley.com Orphaned Computers & Game Systems Website Bally Alley Yahoo Discussion Group Bally Arcade / Astrocade Atari Age Sub-forum Bally Arcade/Astrocade High Score Club Episode Links: Bally Arcade / Astrocade FAQ Bally Software Downloads - Cassette TapesAudio Recordings from Bob Fabris Collection Arcadian Newsletter Software and Hardware for the Bally Arcade - A Technical Description Picture of the Crazy Climber homebrew cartridge Picture of the War homebrew cartridge ZGRASS Documentation Arcade Games Based on the Astrocade Chipset Gorf Arcade Game Seawolf II Arcade Game Space Zap Arcade Game Wizard of Wor Arcade Game Full Bally Alley Astrocast - Episode 0 Transcription Adam: Hi, everybody.  My name's Adam Trionfo, otherwise known as BallyAlley on the AtariAge forums.  And I'm here with... Chris: Chris, otherwise known as "Chris." Adam: And you're listening to the zero-ith episode of Bally Alley Astrocast.  See, I barely know the name of it yet. Chris: I think me and Adam believe that we thought up the name Astrocast ourselves, and we came to find out that there had already been one, it just hadn't been started. And I guess it was Rick and Willy (I think it was only those two). Adam: Yup. Chris: And, it kinda sat there for a year.  Hopefully they will be contributing to Adam's podcast here. Adam: I don't think of this as "Adam's podcast." (And I just used finger-quotes, sorry about that.)  This is our podcast.  Chris and I are recording this right now.  Also, Paul Thacker, who is a regular of the Bally Alley Yahoo group (which we can talk about at a later time).  We're hopefully going to do this together at some point.  I wanna sound natural as possible for this podcast.  So, I'm trying to not read anything off a piece of paper.  I don't like the sound of my voice, and the fact that I'm letting you hear it means that I love you guys. Chris: It's a great level of trust he's exhibiting, you guys.  Plus, I would immediately take his script away from him if he had one because... Adam: Oh, thanks, Chris! Chris: Yeah.  Extemporaneous is more fun to do, and I think it's more fun to listen to. Adam: So, in saying that, we do have some notes we wanna talk about. For this episode we wanna basically go over what we want to cover.  Which is what people seem to do in these episodes.  Saying, "Hey, there's gonna to be an episode of a podcast called 'this'."  And, that's what we're doing here.  So, here's what we're going in our podcast number zero. Chris: It was always funny to me, like oxymoron, like: episode number zero. Adam: Right.  Right. Chris: Let's go negative one.  Let's be rebels. Adam: You may or may not know what a Bally Arcade, or an Astrocade, is.  It was a console that was developed in about 1977.  It was released in 1977, but the first units were not actually shipped, for various reasons, until January 1978.  And very few people got them.  They were first released by catalog-only, by a company called JS&A.  Those systems had overheating problems.  Most of them were returned-- or many of them were returned.  JS&A only sold approximately 5,000 units (so it says on the Internet).  I don't know where that number is quoted from.  I've never been able to find the source.  Bally eventually started selling them through Montgomery Ward.  Now, Bally also had something called the Zgrass that it wanted to release.  This was going to be expanding the unit into a full-fledged computer.  This never was released.  The Bally system itself did not come with BASIC, but it was available nearly from the start.  Many people used it.  A newsletter formed around it called the ARCADIAN.  The system has 4K of RAM and it does not use sprites, but it could move object just as well as the Atari [VCS] and other systems of its time period.  It could show 256 separate colors and through tricks and machine language, it could show all of them on the screen at once, but not normally in a game.  Although there are a few screens that did it (but not actively during a game).  The system is fun to play... if you can find one that works.  If you don't already have one, you're going to discover (if you go searching for one) they're not inexpensive.  They're becoming pricey on the Internet because of the overheating problems they had, since the beginning (with the data chip), you will find that if you own [should have said buy] one now, you're getting a unit that "has not been tested," which means, of course, it is broken.  If you find one on the Internet that says, "Not tested," please, do not buy it.  Just let it stay there and let someone else buy it.  And, when they get it and it doesn't work, if they're surprised then they did not read the "Bally/Astrocade FAQ."  We'll go into much greater depth about this system in the next episode.  I just wanted to let you know that's the system we'll be talking about.  It has a 24-key number pad.  It has a controller that is-- is it unique?  Well, I think it's unique. Chris.  Um-hum. Adam: It has a paddle built into the top knob.  It's a knob-- it's called.  And it has a joystick-- an eight-directional joystick.  It's built like a gun controller-style pistol.  It's called a "pistol grip."  It's sorta shaped like one, if you picture a classic arcade-style gun, and then just cut off the barrel.  That's basically what you have.  Something that was originally mentioned, and I think Bally might have called it that for two years, are Videocades.  Videocades are the cartridges.  These were actually also referred to as cassettes.  These are not tapes.  These are about the size of a tape, but they are ROM cartridges.  In the beginning they held 2K and later on they held 4K for Bally.  Astrovision, or Astrocade, Inc., later released some 8K games in about 1982.  Those were usually considered the best games on the system because they had more ROM to spare and to put more features into the games.  Now, BASIC was available from about the third or the fourth month after the system was released to the public.  It was originally called BALLY BASIC.  It did not come with a tape interface, but one was available for it.  BALLY BASIC cost approximately $50.  The tape interface, which could allow the user to record at 300-baud... which is pretty slow.  To fill the 1.8K of RAM, which is available to BASIC, would take about four minutes to load a complete program.  Better than retyping it every time, isn't it?  But, it's not a great speed.  Later on, the system (when it was rereleased), it actually came with BASIC.  It was still called BALLY BASIC, but today to differentiate it from the original BASIC cartridge, most people call it ASTROCADE BASIC or AstroBASIC.  The reason for this is the later BASIC has a tape interface built into the cartridge itself.  This can record and playback information at 2000-baud, which is an odd number because it's not a multiple of 300.  Because when 300-baud tapes were speeded up by a newer format later, they were 1800-baud.  Tapes were available, which meant the user community was able to grow because they could share programs.  It was sometimes a problem for them because I could record a program on my tape drive and I could send it to you in the mail.  And you'd say, "It's not loading.  It's not loading!"  Well, you'd sometimes have to adjust your read and write heads to match it.  Imagine having to do that today?  To having to... uh, I wouldn't want to think about doing it.  So, even if you can believe it, with that kind of an issue, with users having to adjust their tape systems in order to load programs sometimes, there were commercially released tapes.  These have been archived and are available and you can download them from BallyAlley.com. Chris: So, the play and record head on anybody's tape recorder... there was the possibility that it had to be adjusted to play a tape his buddy had sent him because he had a tape recorder with differently aligned play and record heads in it-- I mean, that's something else! Adam: Now, the recorders that were normally used were called shoebox recorders.  These were recommended.  If you tried to record to a home stereo, maybe Chris can understand this better and tell me more about it in a later episode, but you really couldn't record to one and then get that information back.  I'm not sure why.  But, the lower quality that was available from the low-end tapes that were less expensive were actually better.  Just like there were better audio tapes available, which you should not have used for data because... because, I don't know why!  So, ideal podcast length.  In my mind I see about an hour, or an hour and a half.  While I listen to many podcasts, among them Intellivisionaries (and others) that are not short.  And, as has been discussed on the Intellivisionaries, there's a pause button.  So, if somehow we do end up at five hours, please understand that there is a pause button.  If we end up less, you don't need to use the pause button.  Isn't that great?  Technology... right? Chris:  Well, a very good idea that you had was obviously to conduct interviews with some, I guess, what, Bally game writers, people who are really knowledgeable about it. Adam: Well, there's quite a few people I'd like to interview.  If we can find people from the 70s and the 80s, and even now, there's some people who have written some modern games-- at least written some programs for the system. Chris: It would help if they're still around. Yeah. Adam: Something that's interesting, that I wanna use, is that there's actually recorded interviews that we have from the early 80s and late 70s of phone conversations that Bob Fabris did (from the ARCADIAN publisher).  There was a newsletter called the ARCADIAN and it published for seven years (from 1978 to 1984 or 85, depending on how you view things a bit).  He recorded some conversations with some of the more prominent people of the time. Chris: That's cool! Adam: We've made WAV files of those or FLAC files and they're available for download (or many of them are already) from BallyAlley.  But, it might be interesting to take out snippets from some of those and put them in the show.  I hadn't thought of that before, but that's why we're going over this. Chris: Yeah.  Absolutely. Adam: Right. Chris: That's really cool.  We say Bally Astrocade, like we say Atari 2600, but it was never actually called the Astrocade when Bally owned it. Adam: Not when Bally owned it; no.  But after it was resold they had the right to use the name Bally for one year. Chris: Oh. Adam: And Astrovision did do that.  So, for a short time, for one year, it was known as the Bally Astrocade.  And it actually was called that. Chris:  Oh.  Okay. Adam:  But, somehow that name has stuck.  And that is what the name is called.  And many people think it was called that from the beginning.  It was originally released under a few different names, which we'll get into at a later date.  I think of it... I like to think of it as the Bally Arcade/Astrocade. Chris: Yeah. Adam: It depends on how you look at it.  Sometimes I go with either.  Sometimes I go with both.  Sometimes I call it the Bally Library Computer.  It just on how I'm feeling at the time.  So, we also don't plan to pre-write episodes.  You might have noticed that by now.  We do have a list that we're going by, and we do wanna use notes, but reading from a script is not what I wanna do.  I don't want to sound dry and humorless.  I like to have Chris here making fun of me-- well, maybe not making fun of me, but, you know, Chris here... helping me along to give me moral support.  And I enjoy that I'll be doing this with him, and hopefully Paul as well. Chris:  It is strange for you and I to sit around talking about old videogames. Adam: Oh... isn't it!  Isn't it though! Chris: [Laughing]  Some of the sections that Adam has come up with are really interesting.  They sound like a lot of fun.  And what's cool is that they are necessarily unique to a podcast about the Bally console.  For instance, we were talking about the ARCADIAN newsletter.  There's going to be a segment-- it will probably be every episode because there is a LOT of source material.  This segment will delve into ARCADIAN notes and letters that did not make it into the published newsletter.  It's kind of a time capsule.  In some ways it will be fascinating even for people who don't know a lot about the Bally Astrocade because what you're getting is correspondence from the 70s and 80s, before anybody really knew what was gonna happen with the 8-bit era, you know? Adam: There's material in the archives.  All of this material is from Bob Fabris.  He was the editor or the ARCADIAN.  Two people, Paul Thacker and I, we bought that collection from an individual who had bought it in the early 2000s directly from Bob.  It was never broken up, so it's all together in about eight boxes-- large boxes-- all in different folders.  Bob Fabris kept a really, really detailed collection and in great order.  He kept it in that shape from 1978 until, what?, about 2001 or 2002 when he sold it. Chris: Wow. Adam: So the fact that it survived and then someone else bought it and didn't want to break it up and sell it is pretty amazing to me.  We were able to pool our funds together, Paul and I, and purchase it.  All of it has been scanned.  Not all of it is available.  Oh, and by the way, BallyAlley, in case there are some listeners who don't know... BallyAlley is a website that I put together.  It's mostly from the archives of the ARACADIAN.  But, there's a lot, a LOT, of interesting material there.  If you're interested in the Bally Arcade, you should check it out.  It's BallyAlley.com. Chris: Adam is being kinda modest.  He's done a lot of work on this.  You're gonna find archived materials that will make your eyeballs pop out of your head. Adam: [Laughing] Chris: You know, he's... Adam: If you saw Chris, then you'd know that's true. Chris:  Yes.  Absolutely.  I'm recording blind.  You know, he's very picky about high quality scans (as high as possible only).  He's vey meticulous about it.  And I definitely recommend that you guys visit BallyAlley period com.  I know it's a lost battle; humor me.  They're not dots.  All right... anyway. Adam: All right.  Cartridge reviews.  The Bally Arcade... it has a lot of perks, one of them is not it's huge library of games.  I take that back.  It has a huge library of games.  Many of them, as some people may not even know who are listening to this, were released on tapes.  But the vast majority of games, that people would think of as the console games, are cartridges.  The Bally could "see" 8K at once.  It didn't have to bankswitch or anything like that in order to do that.  There was never a bankswitching cartridge that was released for the Bally.  At least at that time.  Since the library is so small, I'm not sure if we're planning to cover a game per episode, or since we plan to cover all of the games (and there are certainly less than fifty, if you include prototypes) and some of them are not games.  Some of them were... BIORHYTHM, so that you could know when it would be a good time to get it on with your wife to have a baby.  You know... [laughing] So, if that's what you wanna talk about and listen to... write us and say, "That's sounds great.  I want you to tell me when I can get my wife pregnant." [laughing]  The other day my wife was taking a look at a game I was playing for a competing console, the Atari 8-bit game system. Chris: I thought you were gonna say the Arcadia. Adam: No, not the Arcadia.  I was playing a SUPER BREAKOUT clone.  She took a look at it and didn't know what it was.  I said, "You know, it's a BREAKOUT clone."  She's like, "I don't know what that is."  I said, "No.  Look at the game for a minute.  It looks like BREAKOUT."  And she still didn't get it.  And I said, "Okay, so you're gonna have a ball that bounces off a paddle and it's gonna hit the bricks up above."  And she goes, "I've never seen this before."  And I said, "Okay.  You've heard of PONG, right?"  She's like, "Well, yes I've heard of PONG."  I said, "It's that." Chris: [Laughing] It's that... except better.  Between you and all of the people you're in contact with from the Bally era, and people like Paul.  People who actually wrote games back then... Adam: Um-hum. Chris: Information about how the console works and its languages and stuff... is that pretty-much taken care of, or are there more mysteries to be solved. Adam: There's some mysteries.  The neat thing about this system was that even in the ARCADIAN, in the early issues, you could get access, for like $30, to the photocopies that were used at Nutting Associates.  These are the people who actually designed the Bally system for Bally.  They did arcade games-- we'll go more into that in another episode.  This information was available to subscribers... almost from the get-go.  So, if you wanted to have a source listing of the 8K ROM, you could get it.  Of course, it came with a "Do Not Replicate" on every single page, but... it was... you were allowed to get it.  You could purchase it.  It was freely available and it was encouraged for users to use this information to learn about the system. Chris:  The reason I ask is that I'm wondering what the next step is.  Whenever I think of this console... do people refer to it as a console or a computer, by and large? Adam: A game system in my eyes.  I mean, it's a console.  People don't think of it as a computer.  No. Chris:  I'll start over.  Whenever I think about this system, what usually comes to mind is the fact that it is unexploited.  And that is perhaps the, not quite an elephant in the room, but that is the only real disappointment about the Astrocade is that there are these amazing, vivid, brilliant, games.  I mean, the arcade conversations on the Astrocade are, for all intents and purposes, arcade perfect.  This was a superior machine.  And yet, players were teased with a handful of astonishing games and then that was it.  So, "what could have been," comes to mind for me a lot.  And the phrase tragically untapped.  What I'm wondering is why nobody has brought up the initiative of making new games.  The last two were arcade conversations.  They were not original, but they are, of course, phenomenal.  I mean, two of the best titles, you know are WAR (which is a conversion of WORLORDS) and, of course, CRAZY CLIMBER.  You were in charge of all the packaging and EPROM burning for those.  I'm not saying... Adam:  Partially.  Partially.  For all of one of them I was, but the other one was handled by a man name Ken Lill.  I did... I came up with the package design and stuff like that, and made a lot to make it happen.  But, I didn't program the games.  No. Chris:  Right.  But I mean, somebody else did the coding, but didn't you have all the cartridge shells.  And you were burning... Adam:  I made sure it all happened. Chris:  Okay. Adam:  Yeah.  I mean, I didn't do all the work though. Chris:  Okay. Adam: It helped that I was there.  Put it that way. Chris:  We're talking about CRAZY CLIMBER, mainly, right?  Because you helped with WAR as well. Adam: Yeah.  I did both.  Yeah. Chris.  Okay. Adam:  Um-hum. Chris:  And you wrote some of the back of the box copy. Adam:  I did all of that.  Yeah. Chris:  As expensive and limited as such a run would be, that's not really quite what I'm talking about.  As having to go through all that to give people physical, boxes copies, I guess.  Another reason why people might not have written anymore Astrocade games is that the relatively few surviving consoles could be prone to overheating themselves to death at any time.  But, then there's emulation. Adam: Right. Chris:  MESS is all that we have, and it's not perfect.  So, wouldn't that be the first step for somebody to write a really good Astrocade emulator?  I would do it, if I knew how. Adam: Yes.  If there's one of you out there who's like, "Who couldn't write an Astrocade emulator?" Chris: Yes. Adam:  Please, would you do me a favor and send that to me tomorrow? Chris:  It's time.  ...Tomorrow... [laughing] Adam: Something that I wanna get at is that MESS does work for most games.  There are a few that don't work.  Some of them used to work and now they're broken.  MESS was updated to make it "better," and now some games don't work.  I don't understand why that happened.  The biggest drawback to MESS is that is doesn't support the tape.  It doesn't support-- it supports BASIC, but you can't save or load programs.  And since they're hundreds... there's probably over 500 programs available.  And there's... many, many of those have already been archived and put on BallyAlley.com.  So you can try them out on a real system, but not under emulation.  And it's quite easy to use under real hardware.  We'll get into that at another time too. Chris: In terms of cartridge reviews.  And I'm only going to say this once.  Thanks, by the way, for saying that this is our podcast Adam: Sure. Chris:  I thought I was just being a guest.   Adam:  No.  No... you're just a gas. Chris:  I'm just a gas.  So, should I help you pay for the the Libsyn? Adam: I think we'll be okay. Chris: All right. Adam: All of our users are going to send donations every month. Chris:  Oh, that's right. Adam: [Laughing] Just kidding there, guys. Chris:  So, I'm just going to say this once.  And you're welcome.  Review is a word I have a problem with when it comes to my own, well, stuff I write.  But now, apparently, stuff I talk about.  Because I associate the word review with critics.  I think I was telling you the other day, Adam... Adam:  Yes, you were. Chris:  I would never hit such a low level of self-loathing that I would ever call myself a critic.  Talk about a useless bunch.  For me they'll be overviews.  It's very picky.  Very subjective.  It has nothing to do with anybody else.  You wanna consider yourself reviews-- totally respect that-- but I don't do reviews.  So, either that, or I'm in some sort of really intense denial.  But, personal reflections on games, reviews leaves out... when you call something a review, it leaves out the fact that taste is subjective.  It's a personal thing.  I can't review food for you and have you think, "Oh, now I like that food I used to hate."  One's tastes in games, music, etcetera is just as personal.  So, Adam was saying that there's so few of them, that we're not going to cover a game every episode.  So, what we're going to do is alternate, so that you don't go completely without game "content" (isn't that a buzzword, a frequent word online now: "content"). Adam:  That is.  Yeah. Chris:  Everybody wants content.  I gotta table of contents for ya.  We're going to alternate actual commercial cartridge games with commercially available tape games and even type-in programs, because there were a lot of good ones. Adam: Most of them were written in BASIC. Chris:  Which is just awesome to me. Adam:  Yeah. Chris:  We were thinking of alternating the games stuff I was just talking about with this: Adam:  The Astrocade system, well, the Bally Arcade system, as it was originally designed for home use, it had two versions.  There was an arcade version, which came out in 1978 with the first game, Sea Wolf II in the arcades. And there was the version that was released for the home.  It had 4K of RAM, while the version in the arcades had 16K (and some additional support), but they use the same hardware (like the data chip). They're so similar in fact, that many of the systems games were brought home as cartridges.  They don't use the same code.  They are not-- you can't run code for the arcade and vice-versa.  You can, for instance, take a Gorf and run Gorf on Wizard of Wor hardware.  It'll look the wrong direction, but you can do that.  The systems are very similar in that respect.  But, you can actually take an Astrocade (and it has been done before) that is a 4K unit, and actually do some fiddling with it, change the ROM a bit, give it more RAM (there's more that you have to do)-- there's actually an article about it, it was written in-depth (it's available on BallyAlley, the website).  And you can make it into an arcade unit.  It wouldn't be able to play the arcade games, but it would have access to 16K of RAM and that sort of thing. Chris:  When you say Sea Wolf II, you mean the arcade game was running this hardware that you're talking about. Adam:  Right. Chris: Much of which was also in the console. Adam:  Yes. Chris:  Okay.  And that goes for WIZARD OF WOR, GORF, SPACE ZAP.  Well, that explains why there are so many arcade perfect home versions. Adam.  Um.  Right.  They don't share the same code, but they are very similar.  The Hi-Res machine could display, in what was considered then a high resolution.  The Bally display in 1/4 of that resolution.  I think perhaps will have the first episode cover specifically the hardware of the astrocade. Chris: So, you are saying that this segment would cover the arcade games that used the astrocade hardware, and I find that really, really interesting (because I never knew that).  I thought that they were just, you know, very similar and some of the same people created the home versions, but I didn't realize that... I never realized they were so close. Adam: So, another segment that we plan to do is called, "What the Heck?!?"  It's going to focus on unusual hardware and maybe even released items, but something that, while it was released through the Arcadian newsletter or perhaps the Cursor newsletter (and maybe even one of the other small newsletters that were around for a short time for this system exclusively).  When we're talking about a released product here, we are probably talking about in the tens-- the twenties.  I mean, new homebrew games get a wider release than games that are considered released back then.  Maybe not the games, but hardware peripherals.  There was something called the Computer Ear which could do voice recognition-- sort of.  But the software for that isn't available, I don't think… maybe it is.  I have the hardware, but I've never tried running before. Chris:  We're also gonna-- I say "we," even though Adam's knowledge about, well pretty-much all of this stuff is much greater than mine, hoping to cover the Zgrass keyboard/computer.  Is that a fair description? Adam:  Yeah.  That's what you would read on the Internet about it.  And if you can call that true, then that's what it is. Chris:  Right.  And not just on the WikiRumor page. Adam:  Yeah. Chris:  It's a very unusual system and it's worth learning about.  See, you don't hear about any of this stuff anywhere else and that's what's really cool about this podcast.  Everything you've got archived, everything you've learned, you just never read about it back then, you know? Adam:  It was available to read about, but not in the normal sources that people read about the Astrocade.  Which would have been Electronic Games and some of the other computing magazines at the time.  But they didn't talk about, I mean, it was mentioned briefly... but only as a product that was supposed to come out.  But, in a way, ZGrass did come out.  The product, the language, ZGRASS, was available.  There was a hardware system, a computer (which could cost upwards of $10,000) that used some of the custom chips that were available in the Astrocade.  It was called the UV-1.  It was-- I'll get more into that when I cover the Zgrass system in some future episode, which is why we're talking about it here.  I would like to discover more about it.  I wanna learn.  I want-- I don't think I can use it, because it has not been archived.  But, the documentation is available on BallyAlley.  I have that.  Maybe I'll go through that a little bit.  It was... something to learn about and share... Chris:  Yeah.  Really cool. Adam:  It's all about sharing, man.  And caring.  Okay.  The Bally Arcade and Astrocade history.  History of the month is something that we are going to have.  It's going to start with the "Arcadians" #1, which was the first available newsletter.  The "Arcadians" was a newsletter that published for just four issues.  And it was published-- and it was only two pages.  The first one, I think, was only front and back.  Then, I think, maybe the next one was four pages, but that was only two pages front and back.  It was really just a round-robin letter.  It predates the "Arcadian."  It was only available to a few people.  These have been archived.  You can read them online.  I'm gonna start there.  As soon as BASIC was released, it took a few months after the Astrocade came out (excuse me, before the Bally Arcade came out).  Once that system came out with Bally BASIC (which required a separate BASIC interface so that you could record to tape), then Bob Fabris, the editor, said, "We've got something we can explore together.  Let's do this.  Let's pool our resources and come up with a way to share information.  That was what they were all about.  They did this very early on.  That's something that interests me greatly about the system, and I want to be able to share that and compare it with knowledge of other systems that were out at the time. Chris:  That's really cool.  I mean, it's one of the earliest systems of any kind, that I know of, that actually did have a community.  You know, that were really trying to goad each other into doing new things and write programs and stuff like that.  I mean, I can't imagine there was an Altair community.  I'm trying to... Adam: There was an Altair community. Chris:  Oh.  Well, but they were all very rich.  And they had a lot of time on their hands! Adam:  ...those switches, right? Chris:  I hope that you're gonna to do a "What's New on Bally Alley" I know I keep going on about this, but that is just an amazing website to me.  You do a lot of updates to it, so when you do add new things to the BallyAlley website.  And, who knows, maybe this will give you a reason to add more things to the website. Adam:  It could.  The website isn't updated very frequently.  I have great intentions, everyone.  So, if you've been wanting to see updates, give me some motivation to do some.  I don't mean send me money.  We, as the two of us (and other people on the Yahoo group), we do like to BS about the system.  But, there's so much information in my archives, and there are only a few people who share it with me.  Basically, two other people.  We're thinking about putting it up on archive.org, but some of it is kind of-- I think it should, might remain hidden from viewers, even though it might be archived there.  Because, it's personal letters that, I think, probably shouldn't be shared.  Because, there's personal information there.  I mean, when I got the collection, there was actually checks still that were un-cashed in it that were written in the 70s. Chris:  Wow! Adam:  Those kind of things I did not scan.  Because I was like… what? [sounds of exasperation and/or confusion], it was very strange to me.  They are un-canceled, unused checks out there in some boxes that were people subscribing to the newsletter.  I'm not sure why he didn't cash the checks, but... they're there! Chris:  So you could have them in the archive, I guess. Adam:  Right.  But I don't think I wanna-- I don't think that sort of information should be shared. Chris:  Oh, I agree.  But, you know, I mean back then a dollar, back then, was the equivalent of fifty grand today.  Don't you love it when people say stuff like that?  It's like... well, you're going a little overboard. Adam:  Right.  [Laughing]  We had to walk up and down the hill both ways... Chris: Both ways! Adam:  ...in the snow.  Pick up the coal from between the tracks. Chris:  Any Cosby reference, I'm on!  What I'm hoping... do you think that Paul is going to take part in some way in this first episode? Adam:  I would like him to.  If we take a long time, then probably. Chris:  Well, I'm hoping we're going to hear a lot from Paul Thacker. Adam:  Paul Thacker, he will definitely join us, at least, for the... if he can't make it into this zero episode, he will be in for the first one.  He's a good guy.  He has helped me-- more than helped me!-- he has... he is in control of archiving tapes.  That is his department.  After I wasn't really updating the site too much anymore (I actually had even pulled away from it), in about 2006, Paul Thacker came forward and he introduced himself to me through an email.  He said he would like to help with archiving tapes.  And... he really, really has.  He's the leader in that department.  He has contacted people to make archiving programs possible.  He has followed up with people with large collections.  He has archived them.  Not all of it is available on the website yet, but it is... it has been done.  They're truly archived.  And, what's neat about Paul he has tapes that were available between users.  If you're familiar with growing up with these old systems, you might have had a computer like an Atari 800 or a Commodore 64.  Maybe you had some tapes that you recorded to (or disks).  You would write a "Game Number 1."   And then that was what you'd name the program-- even if the program was a type-in from a "Compute!" magazine or an "Antic" magazine. Chris:  Oh, you would save it as "Game Number 1" Adam:  This is how these tapes were.  People would write one program on it... maybe, maybe even give it a clueless name, that meant nothing to either Paul or I.  Paul would record the whole side.  Paul would go through and say, "What's on here?"  Paul would find a program.  Paul would find SIX different versions of that program!  Paul would find programs that had been halfway recorded over.  Paul made sure to archive all of that, separately (and as efficiently as possible), document it.  So, something I want to cover... there are so many topics... I should back up here, and I should say that there are a lot of topics available to anyone who is starting a podcast.  Something that has to be zeroed in on (and that's not supposed to be a pun on the zero episode) is that you have to choose.  You have to narrow.  You have to focus.  I am no good at that.  I am not good at that... I can't do it. Chris:  How many fingers am I holding up? Adam:  Chris is holding up a finger, and I'm supposed to see one.  And I'm hoping that is what he was doing-- and not giving me the finger. Chris: [Laughing] Adam:  So, I would like to cover the ancestry of the Bally Arcade.  Something that came up and about 2001, perhaps 2002, is someone named Tony Miller, who was responsible for working on the Bally Arcade when it was created, mentioned that the Bally Arcade's chipset is actually a direct descendent of "Space Invaders" arcade game's... the CPU for "Gun Fight".  Or something to that affect.  I didn't understand it then, I might be able to understand it better if I find those exact posts (which are definitely archived).  Now, "Gun Fight" used the Intel 8080 CPU, which is why the Astrocade uses the Z80.  Because it's compatible... sort of.  The Z80 can run 8080 but not the other way around.  As you can see, my knowledge of all of this is completely limited.  What I just told you, is pretty much what I know.  There's obviously a story there.  If I could find people to interview, if I can dig into this, there is a GOOD story there.  And I would like to discover it and present it. Chris:  Yeah, 'cause that would mean Taito took some technical influence from Midway.  Because it was Midway that added a CPU, at all, to "Gun Fight," right?  So... that's pretty interesting. Adam:  We'll find out, Chris. Chris:  Yeah.  So, I've already talked about writing new games as the next logical step once one has a lot of information about any game system, or any computer (or anything like that).  So, are we going to encourage activity in the homebrew Astrocade scene?  Because, there is a latent one there.  You should definitely cover the two released games that we've already talked about: WAR and CRAZY CLIMBER.  Those were pretty big deals.  The first new Astrocade game since... what?... 1985-ish?  I mean, on cartridge... Adam:  It depends on how you look at it.  There were actually some people in the community, who were just sending cartridges back and forth to each other, who were sharing code in the 80s.  They're not considered released cartridges.  Something that is available to the public… yes. Chris:  In terms of talking about homebrew programming, you can also talk about people who just play around with this system, or even interview them.  What do you find interesting about the… Adam:  Yeah.  I would like to do interviews with people who actually have a lot of experience with the system and maybe grew up with it, which I did not do.  I didn't learn about it until... the 90s.  About homebrew programming: I believe, and I would love to make you guys believe, that homebrew programming did not start in the 90s.  I would like to let you know that homebrew programming has been around since 1975 (in my eyes) and earlier.  The very, very first PCs, and by that I mean "Personal Computers," not "IBM Personal Computers," (alright?)... these systems were programmed in people's living rooms, in people's kitchens.  If that is not homebrew programming, I don't know what is. Chris:  Right. Adam:  These people were learning for the sake of learning.  They were playing for the sake of the experience of touching the hardware, learning the software-- they weren't doing this for work, they were doing this for pleasure.  This is the same exact reason people are homebrewing games today.  They were doing this back then.  An insight that you get to see very clearly is in the in the "Arcadian" newsletters, and in the "Cursor" newsletters as well, is people want to teach other people.  They are about sharing.  They are about, "Hey I wrote this.  This is great.  You guys should type it in and try it out... and if you find out anything about it, let me know what you think.  If you can add something to it… if you can cut off six bytes and add a sound effect, please do that, because there's no sound."  These people wanted to help each other, and through that it is available in archives, and we can look at this and learn today.  I would like to have that happen, so that people of today, people who have the knowledge, have modern computers that can cross-compile and create new games-- that would be neat... to me. Chris:  Yeah. Adam:  It has been neat, went two have been released already.  But, even if new games don't get created, what about MESS?  Let's make that better. Chris:  Before we go any further, I think you should "share" your email address so that you get feedback. Adam:  My name is Adam, and you can reach me at ballyalley@hotmail.com Chris:  You can private message me on AtariAge.  I'm chris++. Adam:  Now we expect to get loads of email.  We are gonna be clogged.  We're going to have to have the first episode be nothing but reader feedback. Chris:  I'm telling ya, we really got a good thing going, so you better hang on to yourself. Adam:  [Laughing] Chris:  That's a Bowie quote.  Well, before we wrap this up, let's cover the obvious thing.  How did you get so involved in the Bally Arcade/Astrocade? Adam:  When I first began collecting some of these older consoles and home computers... I never stopped playing them, but when they started becoming available for a quarter, I said, "You know, why don't I just buy each one of them."  I had a very large collection for awhile, until I finally gave some of it to Chris... got rid of most of it, and... I am glad I did, because now I play the games I own.  What I don't play, I get to eventually.  In about 1994... '93... I read about this system in one of the books I had that was from the early 80s that covered the Zgrass, actually.  It was the system, I was like, "I want to get a Zgrass, that'd be neat."  I don't have one.  I did find out that it was related to the Bally Arcade.  From there... I wanted one.  I found my first one for a quarter.  I picked it up at a flea market. Chris:  Oh. Adam:  It came with a few games.  In fact, I saw the games first, and I was like, "How much you want for these?"  Each game was a quarter.  I think there was four or five of 'em.  Then I saw the system, but I didn't have that much money with me.  I had like a dollar left or something (I'd already bought some other things).  I was talking to a friend that I'd gone with, and he said, "Why don't you go back there and offer him your buck for it?"  I went back, and I said, "How much do you want for the game (the system)?"  And he goes, "A quarter." Chris:  Wow. Adam:  So, I still had change to go by another: 2600, an Intellivision... no... [laughing]  But, I didn't find anything else that day. Chris:  Those were the days before you people let eBay ruin that part of the hobby. Adam:  So, I did know that there was an "Arcadian" newsletter.  But, I was a member of an Atari 8-bit user group here in town.  It so happened, I was bringing it up... talking with someone there, and they said, "Oh, I've heard of that!"  I'm like, "Oh, you've heard of the Bally?"  They said, "Oh, sure.  You should talk to Mr. Houser" (who was the president of the Atari club).  Then he said, "I think he wrote some games for it."  I said, "Hmm.  That sounds interesting."  So, I approached him.  By 1994, there were very few users left in the Atari 8-bit group.  Who was left, we all knew each other very well (or, as well as we could-- even though some of us only knew each other from meetings).  We started talking.  He told me that he'd been involved with the "Arcadian."  He had published tapes.  He had something called "The Catalog" [THE SOURCEBOOK], which I now know was the way most people order tapes (but, back then I didn't).  He kept track of all this, and he still had all of his things.  He invited me over one Sunday afternoon and he showed me what he owned, which was... pretty-much everything for the Astrocade that was released.  We went through it one Sunday afternoon, and his son (who was in his early 20s) shared his memories of the machine.  I fell in love: I thought, "Wow, this system is great!"  While I was there Mr. Houser, his name was Richard Houser, he said, "Hey, you know what... we should call up Bob."  I said, "Bob, who?"  He said, "He was the person who used to publish the "Arcadian."  I said, "... Really?"  He's like, "Yeah, let's call him."  So, he called up Bob.  They chatted a bit (for a while) and he told him who I was-- I didn't talk to Bob.  But, he was available back then.  I thought that was great, so I wrote Bob a letter.  I said, "Would it be okay if I get some of your information..."  Later on, in the late-90s, he gave me permission to do that.  At the time, I just said, "Hey.  Here I am."  What's really neat, is I started sending him ORPHANED COMPUTERS & GAME SYSTEMS (which was a newsletter I did in the early-90s.  After three issues, Chris, here, joined me on board).  I sent them to him.  When I bought the Bally collection from him, those issues that I'd sent to him brought back to me.  Which, was, like, this huge circle... because it came through several people, in order to come back.  I found that really neat. Chris:  Yeah. Adam:  Eventually, with Chris, we discovered the system together.  We played around with it.  What was it...?  About 2001, I started BallyAlley.com.  It doesn't look great now, and it looked worse then.  Now, here I am... having a podcast.  How about you, Chris? Chris:  I never stopped playing all the way through either.  You know? Adam:  Why should've we? Chris:  Well, yeah.  I kept playing the old games through the period when they started to be called "classic" and "retro."  This happened at some point in the mid-90s. Adam:  During the HUGE crash during in the 80s (that none of us saw). Chris:  Yeah... that none of us knew about, except for the great prices (which I attributed to over-stock). Adam:  I didn't even think about it. Chris:  Well, they weren't all cheaper.  Even into '83/'84, I remember spending thirty-odd dollars on PITFALL II: LOST CAVERNS for the 2600. Adam:  Yeah, right.  I got that for my birthday, because it was $30... and I didn't have $30, I was a kid. Chris:  Right.  'Cause... that was about two-million dollars in today's money. Adam:  Also, for us, I think, we went onto computers, like many people our age at the time.  So, we sort of distanced ourselves.  The prices for computer stock stayed about the same, as they had for Atari cartridges, and things like that. Chris:  That's a good point.  Yeah.  In coming across "classic," after I hadn't really stopped playing my favorites (and discovering new favorites, thanks to the advent of thrift shops and video games at Goodwill, and stuff), I'd read that and say, "Oh, they're classic now.  Oh, all right.  If you say so."  I thought that was really funny.  So, by the late 90s, I thought I was the only person on earth (not literally, but pretty close) who is still playing these "old" videogames.  All I had when we started hanging out again, Adam, was an Atari 2600 and a Commodore 64.  That was all I wanted.  I didn't want to know about anything else, I didn't want to know about this new CD-ROM, with the "multimedia." Adam:  So, let's... this time period would have been...? Chris:  This is 1997.  By this point, I had been writing my own articles and essays for my own amusement (saving them as sequential files on 1541 floppies using the Commodore 64).  I wrote a file writer and reader program.  I thought I was the only one doing nerdy stuff like this, but I had fun doing it.  And I was still playing all the old games, picking 'em up for a buck or less, while making my rounds at the thrift shops and at Goodwills and everything like that.  I was in a subsidiary of Goodwill that was attached to the largest Goodwill store in Albuquerque.  I ran into a buddy of mine, from ten years previous.  He and I have been freshman in high school, and then I went to another high school and lost touch with all of my friends.  This guy's name, if you can believe this goofy name, was Adam Trionfo.  The store had an even goofier name: the U-Fix-It Corral, but then it changed into Clearance Corner.  Is that right? Adam:  Correct.  Yes. Chris:  Adam was working there.  So, I'm going through a box of... something... from the 80s.  He came over, "Are you Chris?"  I said, "Yeah.  Adam?"  He and I, you know, sort of shook hands.  I said, "Well, that's cool, you're working at Goodwill."  "Yup."  Then I left, and I never saw him again... Adam:  [Laughing] Untill today. Chris:  Until today.  That's why it really sounds improvised here.  He gave me a newsletter he had written about... old videogames (and they weren't even all that old yet, at the time).  He started ORPHANED COMPUTERS & GAME SYSTEMS (on paper, kids!) in 1994.  I asked him, "So, you write about video games too?"  He said, "Yeah."  We started hanging out playing games... a lot.  I didn't know anyone else at the time who liked to play Atari 2600 and Commodore 64 games.  He eventually nudged me to the Internet (or, dragged me... kicking and screaming).  When I encouraged him to start up his newsletter again, he said he would if I'd collaborate.  We did that for couple of years.  Sent out a lot of paper issues.  Had a ball writing it.  Going to World of Atari 98 (and then CGE 2003).  Using interviews that we had conducted at those to feed the material for the newsletter.  In 1999, it became a website.  We've actually been pretty good about adding recent articles... Adam:  Recently.  Yeah. Chris:  ... which is good for us.  I don't know what any of this has to do with what you asked me.  In 1982, we took a trip back East to Buffalo to visit family.  My mom's sister's best friend had a son named Robert, who was a couple of years older than me (I was ten, he was probably twelve or thirteen).  He was the kid who first showed me Adventure. Adam:  Never heard of it. Chris:  Summertime of '82 [mumbling/talked-over??] I got my mind blown by it.  This same guy, Robert, took me into his basement to show me his Atari computer (I believe).  He said not to touch it, because he had a program in memory.  He was typing in a program and he had a magazine open.  That's all I remember.  I wish I had focused on the model number or which magazine it was.  It looked like all of this gobbledygook on the screen.  I was absolutely captivated because-- who didn't want to make his own videogames?  I'd been playing Atari VCS games since February of '82.  It became an obsession with me, on par with music (believe it or not).  He said not to touch it because he hadn't saved it yet.  I said, "How do ya save it?"  You know what I mean?  I didn't ask him any smart-ass questions: "Okay, ya gonna take a picture of the screen?" Adam:  [Laughing] Chris:  He said, "I save them on these."  He showed me just a normal blank cassette, like you would listen to music on.  That just entranced me: all of these innocent music cassettes hiding videogames on them.   Adam:  [Laughing] Chris:  I learned how to program in BASIC that summer from a book checked out from the library.  I mean, I just really got interested in talking to this new thing.  This home computer: the microcomputer (as it was called quite often).  The "micro" to separate them from "mainframes," because, you know, a lot of our friends had mainframes in their bedrooms. Adam:  Right. Chris.  Then he brought me over and showed me one more thing before we had to go.  This was the Bally Professional Arcade.  I thought it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.  We played THE INCREDIBLE WIZARD.  He let me play for a little while.  I said, "This is just like WIZARD OF WOR!"  He said, "Yeah, it is."  I can't remember if he had an explanation, or had read an explanation, of why the name was changed.  That was my only experience with the Astrocade.  I loved the controller.  To this day, it is still one of my favorite controllers.  I love the trigger thing, and I love the combination of a joystick and a paddle in one knob on top of it.  I didn't see another Astrocade until I started hanging out with you again in '97.  It figures that you were able to collect all of that amazing stuff because you worked at Goodwill. Adam:  I didn't use that to my advantage. Chris: [sarcastically] I'm sure you didn't! Adam:  I wasn't allowed to do that. Chris:  Yeah, well, I'm sure you didn't steal it... Adam:  No. Chris:  But I mean, come on!, you probably made note of what came in. Adam:  There was actually a rule that I had to follow.  When anything came in, it had to sit on the shelves for 24 hours before it could be purchased by an employee.  That didn't mean we had to show everyone where it was, but it had to be out.  And, that was true: it was out.  That didn't mean we said...  (because there were people that came in every single day, just like I used to like to go around too).  It would be on the shelf, but that didn't mean it would be right on the front shelf, saying, "Buy me please, Atari game collector."  It was in the store somewhere! Chris:  You put it in the back, near the electric pencil sharpener! Adam:  No, I didn't hide it either.  I didn't want to get in trouble. Chris:  Nah.  I know.  Adam had an original Odyssey with all of the layover-- the "layovers?"  With all the airplane stops.  No, with all the overlays. Adam:  [Laughing] Chris:  Which, is pretty amazing!  You had an Odyssey, with original 1972 Magnavox console, with everything else: an Intellivision, he had an Odyssey 2 (with boxed QUEST FOR THE RINGS)... and... Adam:  I had 43 different systems. Chris:  Holy cow! Adam:  I am so glad that I don't have that anymore! Chris:  That is a lot for an apartment. Adam:  So, now I have a few left. Chris:  Yes, folks, he does have an Astrocade. Adam:  I do. Chris:  He does have all of the original cartridge games for it.  I think you got all of them? Adam:  I had them, but now I have a multicart.  I got rid of most of them.  I feel... I kept some of my favorites.  I kept my prototypes. Chris:  Which is cool.  Obviously, you have WAR and CRAZY CLIMBER. Adam:  Right. Chris:  THE INCREDIBLE WIZARD. Adam:  I think, I have number 2's, because the programmer got number 1's. Chris:  That's pretty cool.   Adam:  Yeah.  But, honestly, I don't care about the numbers on them.  They were hand numbered, because collector seem to like that.  Personally, since I did the numbering, I found it annoying. Chris:  Well, there were fifty sold? Adam:  There were fifty each.  Yeah.  There was a run of 20 for WAR, because we didn't have any cartridge shells.  We got more, and we did the second run.  The run of CRAZY CLIMBER was always 50.  It was released all at once. Chris:  You have number two, and [sarcastically], that's a collectors item.. Adam:  Right! Chris: ...if anyone knew what it was. Adam:  I should have got number 0!  Think of this, this episode is a collector's item already! Chris:  You taught me a great deal about the Astrocade and how it worked.  You've told me some things that I just find...  so cool.  Like, you had to use the screen for code, because part of your available RAM was the Screen RAM, right?  (And still is.) Adam:  Under BASIC, that's correct. Chris:  That's how I became even more interested in the Bally Arcade/Astrocade. Adam:  We are about finished wrapping things up here.  Just for the last few things to say.  We are going to have an episode every two weeks (or so).  So, that would be bimonthly.  I hope you guys... if you have any ideas that you want to come up with, will send in some feedback.  If we get no feedback by the first one, that's okay... because we expect... a couple of people... to listen to this.   Chris:  Thanks for listening, and thanks for inviting me along, Adam. Adam:  Good to have ya! [End of episode]

Kelly Coughlin is interviwed by Chris Carlson. Chris is a lawyer and actor in Minneapolis and applies his Socratic method to extract from Kelly what the heck he is doing with BankBosun. Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hi, this is Kelly Coughlin. I’ve got my long-time friend Chris Carlson on the line. He’s CEO of Narrative Pros. Chris, are you there? Chris: I am. Kelly: Great. How are you doing? Chris: I’m pretty good. How about you? Kelly: I’m terrific. Chris and I were catching up. We haven’t talked with each other in a while, and we were catching up on what’s going on. Chris had a bunch of questions about what we’re doing at the Bank Bosun, and we thought, “Well, let’s turn this into a podcast.” Rather than me talking to Chris about what I’m doing, he’s going to ask me some questions so it will help him and the audience better understand what we’ve got going on. Chris I’m going to turn it over to you. Chris: All right. Well, I think first up on the order of business is letting everyone else know a little bit more about who you are. I’ve known you for a while, but why don’t you let people know a little bit more about yourself. Kelly: I’m 58, 4 daughters, 4 granddaughters, and I don’t know if you knew this, I have one grandson. Finally a male in the family. Chris: Oh, congratulations! Finally! Kelly: CPA. Went to Gonzaga University. My uncle is Father Bernard J. Coughlin who is President. Go Barney! He’s 92 now, and I always give him a shout-out when given the opportunity. I also got my MBA from Babson. Let’s see, I worked for PWC when it was Coopers and Lybrand, and then Lloyd’s Bank, CEO of an investment and financial technology company that I founded, managed, and sold. I don’t if I’ve touched base with you since I’ve started working with Equias Alliance as a risk consultant. They do bank-owned life insurance (BOLI) and non-qualified plan programs for banks. I don’t think we’ve really touched base since I started with them. Chris: No. It’s interesting. Kelly: Yes, it is. Chris: Speaking of which, explain to me this BankBosun. Am I saying that right? I take it it’s a nautical term. Kelly: Yeah. Technically, it’s spelled B-O-S-U-N on the website, BankBosun, but Bosun is actually spelled B-O-A-T-S-W-A-I-N, like boat swain, but it’s pronounced Bosun. Chris: Okay. Kelly: BankBosun, it’s a syndicated audio program, really, that’s designed to bring together executives all throughout the U.S. who are participating in what I call the bank ecosystem. Chris: Wait. I’m not going to let off the hook here. What does a boatswain do? Kelly: The captain of a ship needs help and guidance and support, so the boatswain helps the skipper, the captain of the ship, achieve its mission and purpose. Chris: All right. Yeah, that’s a segue because I’m connecting the dots as we speak as I listen to you. BankBosun helps C-level execs in the way. Is that right? Kelly: Yeah. That’s correct. We’re not dealing with ship captains. We’re dealing with bank officers, chief officers. It’s a clever play on the words C-officers, sea-level officers. Chris: It is clever. It’s very punny. A lot of puns. That’s good though. It keeps the interest. I’m not going to let off the hook with the other fancy term which is banking ecosystem. An ecosystem, if I remember it, that’s like the jungle. Right? What do you mean by banking ecosystem? Kelly: The jungle is one ecosystem, so technically it’s a biological community interacting within a set relationship among resources, habitats, and residents of the area. By this, I mean the residents of the banking community, so it’s all the residents of the banking community interacting among each other. The area is not defined as a physical definition like a pond or an ocean or a jungle. It’s defined as a business industry, and in this case, it’s the banking industry. Chris: Sure. All right. What do they need? I mean, why them? I mean, given your background it makes sense. Kelly: Why the banking ecosystem? Chris: Yeah, why do they need particular help and why are you the one to help direct that assistance? Kelly: Well, bankers are just fascinating, interesting people, aren’t they? Chris: Yes, yes they are. They evidently need a lot of help. Kelly: Well, I’ve been in the banking ecosystem, if we can keep using and then abusing and overusing that term, since I was 22. I started my career at Merrill in Seattle in the early 80’s selling mortgage-backed securities to the banks and credit unions. That was a good introduction to navigating this ecosystem. I would say that I learned a lot from that. Then I was consultant at PWC, and CEO of Lloyd’s at two asset management subsidiaries of Lloyd’s Bank, and then as a CEO of our financial technology company Global Bridge. Our primary market was banks, so I’ve been in this ecosystem, if you will, for many, many years, and I do find it interesting and fascinating. The 2008 crash, or melt down I should say, and several others that we’ve had in history, emphasize that banks are a foundation or bedrock of the economy. Frankly, they need all the help they can get. It’s good for the economy. Chris: These bankers you’re trying to reach, I’m assuming you’re doing it through these podcasts and other high-tech, and you’re pretty comfortable that they’ll be able to get the help they need through that and not be put off by it? It’s a good way to reach them? Kelly: Well, it’s certainly is not something that historically they’re used to and comfortable with. Historically it’s been print media, download reports, print them, stick them in your briefcase, read them when you can. Half the time you don’t read them, or if you do, you read them on the airplane and then chuck them. It’s not something that they’re used to right now, but I know as a CEO of a couple of companies in my past, that we pulled in so many different directions from different constituents whether it be board members or key customers or regulators, employees, suppliers, consultants, accountants, everybody is pulling at us and yanking at our time. CEO’s, generally, and CFO’s, but C-level execs, they need to extract value from all these different sources of information efficiently and effectively. I really am a proponent of the multitasking concept, so the idea was, “Let’s give them some good information, bring together this ecosystem, give them some good information but in a way that they can do other things.” Kelly: Frankly, we’re right in the middle of sporting season, football season and the World Series. I was actually down in Kansas City for the World Series. That was fun. The commercials are ridiculous in these sporting events especially football, so I figured out a way to multitask during these games. Certainly during football games you can read if you want, but also you can listen and learn too. CEO’s, you run your own company. You got a million things going on. Right? You’ve got to figure out a way to maximize the return off of that. Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. You said earlier that you think that it’s a time when banks have a greater challenge than they’ve had in the past, and with your nautical-themed assistance, give me a sense of why now is a particularly challenging time for banks and how you’re going to be able to help us. Kelly: Well, I like the nautical theme for the Bank Bosun. I’ve sailed for many years. I’ve lived in Seattle in the 80’s. To me skippering a boat was, where you have a lot of moving parts and people and weather and tides and currents and rocks and other boats to deal with and coast guard, the regulator, and it really served as a great metaphor for running a business, but especially a bank. I think any executive that’s been in charge of a boat knows exactly what I mean about that. When you’re out sailing in the Puget Sound or the ocean, you use whatever tools and information you can muster up to get you and your crew and your boat to the next point. There are no guide posts. There are no signs. You have to watch weather, currents, tides, all that kind of stuff. All of those principles apply to skippering a company, but especially a bank. Chris: That makes sense. You sold me on the metaphor. Kelly: Good. Chris: Tell me more about where you’re at right now and what the connection is with your Bank Bosun. Are they okay with this new gig? How do they relate? Kelly: Well, Equias is in the bank-owned life insurance space. BOLI is the acronym for that. I came across Equias and the BOLI industry when I was working on a management consulting project. I didn’t know anything about the industry or the product at that time, but after I finished the engagement I thought, “Man, I need to get into this space,” because I love the asset class, if you will. Frankly, it’s an alternative investment for banks’ portfolios. Now, it has to be surrounded by insurance and you have to make sure that insurance is a key part of it, but at the end of the day, it’s a phenomenal asset class. It transfers balance sheet risk. You get a higher return than treasuries, than municipal bonds, and that sort of thing, but I really do like the asset class. Then it has some benefits for funding non-qualified plans. The thing that I liked about it is it reminded me of my early Merrill Lynch days selling mortgage backed securities. At the time, mortgage backed securities were a new, innovative product. They had a few more moving parts involved, and it required me to simplify the value proposition. You really need to focus on the benefits, which everybody needs to do in any business. With any product, you’ve got to focus on the benefits. I always think of the line, “People don’t want a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.” Now this is, at the end of the day, a life insurance product. I also love the line by Woody Allen, “I tried to commit suicide one day by inhaling next to an insurance salesman.” There’s always some inherent bias against that. My father sold insurance, and I told that to him when I was about 22 or something. He didn’t find it that funny actually. I find it funny. Chris: It is funny. It’s a funny line. Kelly: Yeah, it is. Chris: It’s funny because the word inhaling is funny. Kelly: You’re going to probably offend somebody. Chris: Probably, but that’s not your target market. Kelly: They’re my colleagues. Chris: Your friends, as it were. Speaking of friends, I haven’t wished you, my friend, a Happy New Year. We’re about a year into it here, and you see all these lists coming out, top movies, top TV shows. Why don’t you give me the top three initiatives for, BOLI, or for the banking ecosystem? Kelly: Okay. Chris: Pick your field. Kelly: Well, I certainly have three, but I’m not going to tell you two of them because I wouldn’t want to tip off our competitors onto what I’ve got up my proverbial sleeve. Chris: Okay. Kelly: Stay tuned. News at 5. Chris: That’s right. Kelly: Let me hear your sales voice say that. Chris: News at 5. Now it’s, News in 5 seconds. I asked you for the top three initiatives for 2016 and you said that you’ll give me one. Kelly: I’ll give you one. Chris: It’s called negotiating? Kelly: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kelly: The one that I’m intrigued by is a confluence of two things. One is cyber security risk. Chris: All right. Kelly: The other is risk transference of that risk. I want to explore whether it makes sense to pursue a captive insurance program for banks to underwrite cyber security risk. Setup a collective or a community to do that. I think it’s being mispriced now by insurance companies because they haven’t really identified the risk. They haven’t really identified how big the risk is, how to mitigate the risk, and then how to price it. Anytime you have unknowns like that, especially in insurance, you get over, mispricing, I should say. That’s something that intrigues me. Chris: Yeah, it makes sense. Kelly: Yeah. The other two I’m not going to tell you about. Chris: Perfect! In the acting business, we call this dramatic tension, which you’ve done a good job of creating. Kelly: Thanks! Chris: Well it sounds interesting. It’s good stuff. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.