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Let’s talk about death, baby From breaking the stigma to understanding the conversations we need to have before we die, beloved broadcaster and advocate Andrew Denton and clinical psychologist Dr Kerrie Noonan dissect everything we should and shouldn’t say about death. About the episode – brought to you by Australian Seniors. Join James Valentine for the sixth season of Life’s Booming: Dying to Know, our most unflinching yet. We’ll have the conversations that are hardest to have, ask the questions that are easy to ignore, and hear stories that will make you think differently about the one thing we’re all guaranteed to experience: Death. Featuring interviews with famous faces as well as experts in the space, we uncover what they know about what we can expect. There are hard truths, surprising discoveries, tears and even laughs. Nothing about death is off the table. Andrew Denton is renowned as a producer, comedian and Gold Logie-nominated TV presenter, but for the past decade he has been devoted to a very personal cause. He is the founder of Go Gentle Australia, a charity advocating for better end of life choices that was instrumental in passing voluntary assisted dying (VAD) laws across Australia. Senior clinical psychologist Dr Kerrie Noonan is director of the Death Literacy Institute; director of research, Western NSW Local Health District; and adjunct Associate Professor, Public Health Palliative Care Unit, La Trobe University. For the past 25 years she has been working to create a more death literate society, one where people and communities have the practical know-how needed to plan well and respond to dying, death and grief. If you have any thoughts or questions and want to share your story to Life’s Booming, send us a voice note – lifesbooming@seniors.com.au Watch Life’s Booming on YouTube Listen to Life's Booming on Apple Podcasts Listen to Life's Booming on Spotify For more information visit seniors.com.au/podcast Produced by Medium Rare Content Agency, in conjunction with Ampel -- Disclaimer: Please be advised that this episode contains discussions about death, which may be triggering or upsetting for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. If you are struggling with the loss of a loved one, please know that you are not alone and there are resources available. For additional support please contact Lifeline on 131 114 or Beyond Blue on 1300 224 636. TRANSCRIPT: James: Hello, and welcome to Life's Booming. I'm James Valentine, and this season, we're talking about death. Or, on this episode, why we don't talk about it enough. Death is really easy to talk about, but avoiding the subject just makes things even harder. From breaking the stigma to understanding the conversations we must have before we die, I'll be dissecting everything we should and shouldn't say about death with two fascinating minds. Andrew Denton is the founder of Go Gentle Australia. A charity advocating for better end of life choices, but you probably know him better from so many shows on our TV. And Dr Kerrie Noonan is a senior clinical psychologist and social researcher, determined to increase our death literacy. Kerrie, Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. Do you know one another? Andrew: Yes we do. Yeah. Kerrie: Yeah, along the way. Andrew: We've had a few conversations about death, dying, literacy, all those things. Yeah. James: How did you learn about death? Like when did you, and who did you go to talk to? When did you start thinking about it? Andrew: Well, I think you learn about death the way everybody does, which is you experience it. And the first time it happened to me, I made a documentary about teenagers with cancer, Canteen, the support group, and one of those young men died. And his parents very generously invited me to visit him as he was dying. And that was the first time I actually saw what death can be. And it was, it was very hard to see and then watching my own father die obviously was a profound moment for me because that was an unhappy death. But how I've learned about it since is, I imagine a bit like Kerrie. I've had thousands of hours of conversations with people who are dying and their families and their carers. And, I've learned so much about death I feel I've mastered it and can move on. James: Yeah, true. That's right. Is that, is this what you mean by death literacy, that, that in some ways we just need to be talking about it more? Kerrie: It's, it's talking about it. That, that's one aspect. But it's, it's kind of developing your know-how and being able to put that know-how into practice. So, you can maybe talk about, maybe have some competency in terms of talking or maybe doing one element, related to death and dying. But, when you put it into practice, that's when death literacy kind of really comes to life. It kind of sits, some of the research we've done recently, it's evident that death literacy sits in networks, in-between people, within people, in communities, so it's not just about individuals. James: I suppose I'm wondering about at what point we might have this, or there'd be a difference in death literacy with 20-year-olds than there would be with 80-year-olds, right? Kerrie: Yes, experience changes your death literacy. That's probably the strongest predictor. So we started this research looking at networks of care and how people kind of come together. And so where we're at now is we're looking at what are the predictors and what are the things that we understand so that we can understand more about how to make more death literacy, I guess. So an example, that's your question, well I can give a real example. When my mum was in hospital, we were, we needed someone to help us to move mum from the hospital to home because we wanted to take her home. And we couldn't get the health system or the medical system to do that. So I put an email out, a text message out to my friends who happened to work in the death space. And within an hour we had someone, within two hours, mum was home. And so. That took, you know, that set off a little chain of conversations, emails, texts. And while I was doing that, my brother was getting the medication sorted and other things sorted for my mum. So we really, we utilised, to bring my mum home, we utilised like every bit of knowledge and our networks to do that. James: But you were at the centre of, you know, you, you study this, you're a, you know, an advocate for it, and so you're at the centre of it. You would have a network. I mean, I don't know that I've got the same network. I'd, I could put it out to my friends and they'd go, we could bring wine. Oh, you know, like, I don't know that they'd, I don't know that they'd be that practical. Kerrie: But that's actually helpful too. You need your friends to turn up with wine and, and bread and whatever comforts. So we found that younger people, for example, so we've done two kind of national studies just to kind of demonstrate your point about younger people. Between, 2019, pre COVID, and 2023, we looked at the population and we looked at death literacy and how it changed. And we found that voluntary assisted dying and COVID had an impact on people's death literacy, particularly for the younger people, anyone who's experienced a death, anyone who's been through loss, has higher death literacy than people who haven't. And so, there's lots of things that contribute to that, but, COVID, I think, we're still kind of looking at the data, but certainly voluntary assisted dying because of the way that you need to kind of have conversations, you need to actually reach out to your networks, you need to talk to doctors, you know, there are actually lots of interactions in that that really stretch your skills and, your understanding. James: It's only a few generations back when death was very present in our life. The conversation about voluntary assisted dying has perhaps allowed us to have that conversation again. Have you seen that? Andrew: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, there's, there's a lovely, witty observation that in Victorian times they talked about death all the time and never about sex. And today it's the other way around. It's not that many generations ago where the body would lie in the house and there'd be a viewing in the house. And so it was, it was a more human thing, the way Kerrie's describing her friends helping her mother come home, that's a communal and human thing. And when I talk about voluntary assisted dying, I must and I want to bracket it with palliative care, because really, despite the fact politically they were oppositional during the legislative debate, they're very much on the same end of the spectrum, which is we're all going to die, and the concept of palliative care, which is also the same idea of voluntary assisted dying, is not, ‘Let's get you to the dying bit, but how do you live as well as you can while you are dying?’ And that dying process could be very short or it could be very long, it could be several years. You, usually you can't be really clear. So the whole point as Kerrie said about voluntary assisted dying and palliative care is you talk about these things. And interestingly, I think there's a paralysis around death, and you know, you said, well, my friends wouldn't know what to do, they'd bring wine, as Kerrie said, that's no bad thing. But if you put out a call to your friends to say, I need to move my fridge, somebody's going to say, I've got a ute. James: Yes. Andrew: …your need, perhaps, to leave hospital and go home, that's the same question… James: They might have a ute. Andrew: …It's just, it's just a human question, which is, I need help. And not only do we get paralysed in the face of death and assume that the experts have the answers, but the experts often get paralysed in the face of death. They don't know how to have those conversations either. So one of the things that voluntary assisted dying absolutely has done, and there was a, a geriatrician in Victoria who said to me. He was ashamed to admit that voluntary assisted dying had made him understand how limited his practice had been, in that he had subconsciously only been asking questions of patients that he had an answer to: How's your pain? James: Right. Andrew: I can treat your pain. What are your symptoms? I might be able to treat your symptoms. Whereas what he asks now is, how do you feel? What is life like for you? That's a much more holistic question. What is it that you need? If we can't help you with it, maybe someone else can help you with it. So I think it's about transcending that paralysis in the face of death. Which is natural, but the greater group that you can talk with it about, the better. I still remember a woman I met several years ago. And she said to me from the moment her husband was diagnosed with cancer to the moment he died, he refused to talk about it. And the, it was like a sliver of ice stuck in her heart because she was frozen in that too. James: Yeah, yeah. Kerrie: Yeah, and I think what we, what we found in a lot of our research too, Andrew, was that, carers were often, had massive networks that the person who was dying didn't know about… Andrew: Right… Kerrie: …as well. So I think that's, that's the other thing, about some of these conversations is that, once you know that you've got community who's up for the conversation or up for whatever around you that a lot of carers are, can have that access to other people. James: And you mean the person dying doesn't know because they don't ask, unless they're talking about it, then no-one thinks to bring it forward? Is that what you mean? Kerrie: Yeah. I think what happens in that situation is a carer can become quite isolated like the dying person. If they don't want to talk about it, there actually are still practical things to organise. There are still things, where are the passwords? How do you get into the bank account? What bills need paying? Andrew: I'm trying that with my wife all the time and she's not even dying! Kerrie: That's right. They continue but you don't get to have the conversation with the person. Andrew: Actually, Geraldine Brooks, a beautiful author, her husband Tony, who is a friend, he died very suddenly, dropped dead in the street, and he was young, in his early 60s. And she's just written a book about this called Memorial Days, about that whole experience. And that's the strongest piece of practical advice she gives, which is, prepare for your death by helping others. James: Yes. Andrew: Like, leave the passwords, explain how these things work. The best things I've learnt about the idea of preparing for death and thinking about death, actually I'm pretty sure came from some of your literature, Kerrie, which was the idea of an emotional will. And an emotional will is not about, to you James, I'll leave my ute. It's actually about, to you James, I'm going to leave, my favourite city in the world. Limerick in Ireland, and here's some money for you to go there, or to you James, I'm going to leave these five songs, which mean something to me. It's actually about, well this poem, it's about gifting something of spiritual life value as opposed to an object. James: Yeah. Following the, the, the legislation in New South Wales, now pretty much in every state, Andrew, where, what do you see now? What do you see in our society now? What do you see happening? Andrew: Look, there's still the same paralysis and fear about death. I think that's, that's kind of natural. You know, one of the people on our board of Go Gentle is the former federal president of the AMA, who's a neurosurgeon, and he said when his dad was dying in hospital, he was afraid to ask for, you know, more help because he didn't want to be annoying. So, you know, I mean, this is the head of the AMA. To me the big question is not so much, how individual families or individuals respond even though it's very important. To me the big conversation is within the medical professions. And I don't actually say that critically. Because we're all equally struggling with the concept of the abyss. And I think, it is an acknowledged problem in healthcare, of futile care at the end of life. It's giving a 90-year-old a hip replacement, for example, just over-treating. Because of the, I've heard it described as ‘doctor as hero’. You know, we give, we give doctors, quite reasonably, a special place in our society. Because we ask special things of them. But part of that training is, we must win. We must treat. When I was first told this by a doctor in Oregon, when I went there. When they said, oh, we see death as a defeat, I actually laughed. I thought they were joking. I said, it's… James: You know you can't win. He turns up with that scythe at some point. Andrew: So I think there's a much broader conversation about what is dying, and how do we have that conversation with people who are dying. And I think… James: I suppose I just thought, I have had a couple of conversations recently with people who have a relative or parent who has gone through voluntary assisted dying… Andrew: Yes… James: …And what I noticed was the way they talked about it, in a sense, wasn't much different to, oh, we went to Europe. You know, we had a nice trip. Like, it was very normal, the way they said it. They went, I was at my uncle's death yesterday. Andrew: It can be. It can be. You know, dying affects different people differently. There are people who have gone through the voluntary assisted dying process who totally support it and are very glad it's there, but still found the experience traumatic. It's not a silver bullet. James: Right. Andrew: It doesn't, it, it's merciful, and it's peaceful, but it doesn't, it certainly doesn't remove grief, and it doesn't remove, for many people, the unreality of dying. We hear many, many testimonies of families deeply grateful for the way in which they are able to say farewell. And I think that's a very important part of voluntary assisted dying. A genuine ability to say farewell. But people are different. There's one man that insisted, who used voluntary assisted dying, and insisted that he be only with his doctor. And the reason he gave, which I find both beautiful and heartbreaking, he said, ‘I don't want the love of my family holding me back’. So, you know, I always maintain when I talk about this. James: [sigh] I felt the same thing. I did the same thing. I know. You know, huge. Andrew: Whenever I've talked about this, I've always maintained, none of us know how our dying will be. All we know is that it will be hours and hours alone. And I think that's why I struggle with, that philosophy that somehow or other, that, our dying is about society at large or about some universal rule that we might be breaking if we don't do it the right way. James: Kerrie, you know, I sort of want to acknowledge that you've been through death quite recently, that your mother died only a few weeks ago as we're having this conversation. As someone who's then spent their life studying this area and thinking about this area, what have you learned from the death of your mother? Kerrie: It looks similar to what Andrew said before about his colleague, the doctor. Like, well, I went straight to the practical things, didn't I? Like, it's a kick, grief's a kick in the guts, let's face it. Knocks you on your butt. James: And we are very practical in those first weeks, aren't we? At the moment of death and afterwards. Kerrie: Just the other day, when we dropped my daughter off to uni, I went to text my mum, as I would usually do. And text her the photo of her in her dorm. And I think this is, you know, I was really glad of my experience because I just sat there and cried for about five minutes, actually. I just needed to blubber and cry. I could have sucked it up. We could have just, you know, driven on. But actually it was really helpful just to really deeply acknowledge that moment. That was the first time. That I'd experienced that real sense of wanting to, to, communicate with her. Andrew: I hope it won't be the last time you hear her cry about your mum. Kerrie: No, it won't be. It won't be. But when she died, because of the work that we had done, I didn't cry initially. Andrew: Yeah. Kerrie: And this is this individual kind of experience of going through this. I didn't, immediately cry. I felt intense relief for my mum. And so I was just reflecting on that. I was like, ‘Whoa, I'm not crying’. The other thing that is, is on my mind is that it took an ICU doctor on the day that mum… So mum had three MET calls. And if you don't know what a MET call is, and you're listening to this, this is where every registrar, every emergency person on call, runs to the bed of the person who is, who's crashing. James: Right. Kerrie: …and she had three of those. And by the end, I'm glad I wasn't there because I hear that mum was very distressed. James: Right. Kerrie: And it took an ICU doctor to sit down with her and go, what do you want Maureen? James: Yeah. Andrew: Yeah. Kerrie: And mum said, I'm done. And so it didn't matter that I'd done that with the doctors, multiple times, or that she had an advanced care directive, clearly stating, do not give me, treatment that will prolong my life. It didn't matter that all of those things were in place. What mattered, was that ICU doctor who absolutely, compassionately just stopped everything and talked to my mum. And it's a pretty brave thing when your heart is failing and other things are happening in your body to say, no more, I'm done. Because that does, that's a decision about you only have a certain amount of time left in your life then. So, that doctor changed the course of my mum's dying. And, yeah, I'll never forget that. And then the compassion at which she called me to talk with me about what mum had decided. And the checking. The difference – one of the other things that I found – the difference between a doctor with really, like, person-centered communication skills and someone who's focused on getting the job done. They ring and say, ‘Hey, I'm caring for your mum. I'm caring for your person. What do you understand about what's happening?’ James: Right. Right. Kerrie: And every time, they did that… James: …they want to listen to you first, yeah. Kerrie: …Yeah. Every time they did that, it just gave me an opportunity, even though I know this gig, I've talked a hundred times on the other side of that conversation with people, but it just made me realise the just incredible, that empathy, you feel it in your bones on a whole other level when someone is truly going, ‘Tell me, tell me your story, tell me your bit.’ And, that was, that was a big learning and a big reflection as a health professional, as someone who's been there. The other thing, sorry, you cracked that open, didn't you? The other, the other part was, no one asked, me or my brother, about, about our experience, our previous experiences, and who we were, and what we did, and who were these children taking their mum home. My brother's a nurse. I've worked in palliative care for a million years, and it was a really interesting thing having to, like, I just wanted someone to go, Hey, have you done this before? And maybe I'm being a bit biased there because that's something that, because I've got a death literacy lens over things. And I'm always interested in, Hey, what have you done before? Hey, what experiences do you want to bring to this one? What do you know about what you're facing? What do you want to know about next? They were all the questions that I would be asking if I was working with someone. I really wanted someone to ask me those questions. Andrew: In a palliative care setting, you would probably have been asked those questions, you would hope. Kerrie: I hope so. Andrew: In a general hospital, maybe not. I think that speaks to two things, what we're talking about, which is paralysis in the face of death and, a sense of we just treat, we treat, we treat. This is what we do. Everybody's terrified of being accused somehow of not having done enough. So I think there's that. And, the doctor, the ICU doctor you described, that strikes me as a perfect piece of medicine. And it, it absolutely accords with what a beautiful nurse said to me in South Australia some years ago. She was very emotional. She was, she was recording a piece for us about why there should be voluntary assisted dying. It was always instructive to me that the ones that really advocated for it were the nurses, because they're the ones that see the suffering. And she just said, ‘Why can't we do the right thing, human to human?’ And that's why I see this as a multi-generational discussion within the health profession. It's not that people in the health profession aren't humans or don't get that, but it's not how they're trained. And, but I also think it speaks to the pressures on the health system too. Kerrie: Yeah. Andrew: In the same way as we're talking about aged care, even though we have a much healthier health system than, say, America, it's still pressured. And we know, we hear stories from hospitals all the time of, resources that are built but not used or resources that are used but are stretched beyond reason, and so I think it's a reflection of all those things. But there was at times, and I think sometimes we don't talk about this enough, is paternalism in healthcare. Andrew: Can I explain that?! James: Yeah, that's right. Andrew: Sorry. James: Oh yeah, we covered that Kerrie, us blokes know all… Andrew: Please, do go on. Kerrie: Oh, there's a lived experience. [laughter]. Oh, yes, that. Andrew: No, I'm sorry, please do explain. James: …which you ably demonstrated… Kerrie: So, that, yeah, like paternalism, we just don't have a critical kind of conversation about paternalism in healthcare. And there's, you know, there's that difference between really great care. And then, but if you just kind of tip it a little further into ‘Hmm, do you really want to do that? Oh, don't you want to be the daughter, not the carer?’ You know, like there are, there are kind of, there are particular things that happen in healthcare that, that we don't, we aren't critical enough, is what I'm saying. I don't know what the answer is, but I would like the system to be more critical about, about some of those things that perhaps they take for granted a little. And, look, sometimes it would be maybe permission for a family to kind of, yeah, be the daughter. James: Well, even in my experience, my cancer experience in the last year or so, I've now done several talks at doctors conferences and things like that. And what, what sort of strikes me as funny about it is I go, ‘We’re thinking of taking an interest in the patient's perspective, perhaps you'd like to come talk about that?’ Patient's perspective. Is this new? Andrew: You know, I, I went on Q&A, about VAD quite early in my advocacy, which was a terrifying experience, by the way, and, and there was a, another fairly prominent doctor who was strongly in opposition, and I, I completed what I had to say by basically saying, you know, doctors, it's, it's time to listen to your patients. And this doctor, who's a very good writer, wrote this excoriating piece in a magazine afterwards, just accusing me of being patronising towards doctors. And I'm thinking, that's patronising? I mean, the worst example I know of this, there was a, a former AMA official and, they held a debate on this internally in 2016, that I had a link to and I, so I watched it. And he was a, a geriatrician, and a senior doctor. And somebody on the other side of the debate, because he was opposed, had put to him that there's a great public support for this. And he said, and I'm, I'm quoting pretty close to verbatim, he said, ‘That's why we're paid $200,000 a year. We make these decisions.’ And that's, so I think there is significant paternalism. There was another, a female oncologist who wrote a piece in The Australian against these laws, and even though it wasn't her headline, it was what she meant. The headline was, ‘Autonomy, it's not about you’. And you know, going back to what I was saying, there cannot be a more, you-focused experience than your dying. I don't care what your religion tells you, in the end, only you are going there when it happens. James: You've given, is it a decade now, to this? Andrew: More, I think. James: More, you know. Again, I suppose, what's your reflection on that? I sort of feel like I'm framing the question almost, are you glad you did that? You know, is that… Andrew: There are times, and I'm sure Kerrie would agree with this, there are times I think, you know, I've had enough death, thank you very much. Andrew: But I would have to say it's been the most brilliant second act for me after showbusiness, far more meaningful to me. The correspondence I've had and the conversations I've had, have been so privileged, and the gratitude that we as an organisation, Go Gentle, receive from people whose families had the option of voluntary assisted dying is immense. And, so yes, I am glad. And certainly I view this as the real work that I've done, not whatever I may have done in television. Perhaps if I'd won a Logie, I'd feel differently about that. James: I think you peaked at [1980s show] Blah, Blah, Blah, quite frankly! Andrew: Yeah, I think so, and it was all downhill after that first year, exactly! James: Yeah, well, I almost feel like I need to go and have a good cry. It's been, a beautiful discussion. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing it with us here on Life's Booming. Andrew: Can I ask you a question? Before you just wound up, you're getting teary. James: Yeah, yeah. Andrew: What are you feeling? James: I'm taking a deep breath to calm, so I can't talk, not necessarily to squash it. I'm always surprised when it comes up. I, I never quite know when I'm going to get teary. And sometimes it's, it can happen on air, like sometimes if someone starts talking about death or a relative, and I'll be listening to it and I'll suddenly go to speak and go, oh, the emotion's right there, you know. So, I'm not entirely clear. I think I'm moved by Kerrie, and sort of wanting to experience your grief in some ways, deal with that. Or I feel like, I think I'm feeling that you, you holding it in, sort of that, you know, we need to sort of let that, let that go a bit. So, it's interesting. I think I'm moved by your work as well. Look, we have a funny connection over many decades, and to observe you go through, deal with, deal with, you know, to see you transform into doing that work has been quite extraordinary. And I'm probably just contemplating my own death. [laughter] Andrew: And, exactly right, James. And during the height of COVID, quite unexpectedly, a very good, friend of mine, he rang me from Victoria and we knew his wife had pancreatic cancer, which is obviously a very tough diagnosis. And then he said she's chosen VAD and she's going to die in this state. And despite all the thousands of hours spent in that debate to get that law passed in Victoria, which was the first one in Australia, and it was an absolute brutal knife fight of a battle to get that law passed. For some reason, it had never occurred to me that somebody who I knew and loved was going to use this law. James: Yeah, right. Andrew: And I remember, despite everything I knew about it, on the day, Jennifer and I, we got our whisky glasses. We poured a whisky. We lit a candle. But I remember thinking as the clock ticked down to the moment, it felt very unreal to me. But the strong emotion that I felt at the moment, knowledge in the moment of her dying was not that she had died. It was actually about just the richness of life. Oh my god, life is so rich. And that's what I felt. I just felt, wow, life. Kerrie: I think that is what you say there is so deeply important because one of the reluctances around talking about death and dying is not being able to maybe lean into some of that feeling around that richness of life. When we were going through photo albums, there were photos there that, you know, that we'd never really taken notice of before. Damn, we wanted to know about them now. Who were they? Who are these people? Where are they now? It does connect you to life in a very profound way. And all of the messiness of that. And that's, I think, only a great thing. Watching my children, 22 and 17, be with their grandma. We did a very, a simple thing. Put a comb, a brush on the end of her bed. And mum used to love having her hair brushed. And we just said to the kids, just brush her hair, if you want. Andrew: That’s gorgeous… Kerrie: And so that just very simple action just then gave them something to be with her while she was dying. Andrew: Human to human. James: Yeah. Kerrie: Yeah. And my children did that many times, while she was dying. And, and that's when we would sit and talk about what we did with Nanny and things. And we, you know… So it's worth leaning into. I guess that's the other thing. It's worth getting the whisky out and having a think about, about, about these things and reflecting in on it, and how, and what it means to you and what you want to do. James: Thank you. Kerrie: Thanks. Andrew: Thanks, James. James: I'm gonna cry. Andrew: Come on. Let's hug it out. Come here. James: Exactly. It was very good. That was a beautiful moment. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks to our guests, Andrew Denton and Dr Kerrie Noonan. You've been listening to Season 6 of Life's Booming: Dying to Know, brought to you by Australian Seniors. Please leave a review or tell someone about it. Head to seniors.com.au/podcast for more episodes. May your life be booming. I'm James Valentine.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this interview with Andrew Thomson, a Scottish seasoned professional in the energy sector, we delve into the multifaceted landscape of oil, renewable energy, and their global implications through a personal lens. Andrew shares his journey from working in the oil industry over 20 years to recently transitioning into nuclear and wind energy sectors. Through his experiences, he provides insights into the socioeconomic impact of oil, the challenges of transitioning to renewable energy, and the complexities of global politics that intertwine with the energy sector.Exploring Andrew's experiences working offshore in locations like Nigeria and Azerbaijan, the discussion uncovers the substantial influence of hydrocarbons and the cultural, socio-economic, and safety developments within the oil sector. The discussion delves into the critical role of energy across modern life, impacting everything from education to communication, while critiquing governmental actions on energy policies and advocating for a balanced energy strategy, similar to Japan's where currently works in setting up Wind Turbine Platforms (using much of the same technology as oil rigs). Furthermore, the dialogue highlights the philosophical and challenging practical shifts toward renewables, exploring political and economic challenges in this transition. Through Andrew's perspective, one can try to better attempt to begin to understand the global energy politics, the necessity of interdisciplinary approaches in energy careers, and the shifting dynamics in the energy sector.Time Stamps * 00:00 The Importance of Energy in Modern Life* 01:00 Introducing Andrew: From Oil to Climate-Friendly Energy* 01:46 Andrew's Background and Career Journey* 02:38 Life and Work in the Oil Industry* 07:34 Challenges and Dangers of Offshore Drilling* 10:54 The Culture and Lifestyle of Oil Workers* 20:58 Global Perspectives: Working in Africa and Beyond* 23:58 Corruption and Local Interactions in the Oil Industry* 38:09 A Costly Mistake and Cultural Reflections* 38:54 Corruption and Anti-Corruption Measures* 40:09 Cultural Differences and Acceptance* 41:13 Colonial Legacy and Historical Perspectives* 43:41 Nationalized vs. Private Oil Companies* 45:46 Transition to Renewable Energy in Japan* 46:12 Challenges in the Oil Industry* 48:22 Geopolitics and Energy Policies* 56:43 Experiences with Government Agencies* 01:03:56 Future Prospects and Peak Oil Debate* 01:08:06 Final Thoughts on Energy and PolicyHighlights and Quotes of Interest On Energy Source MixesJapan has a long term vision.It has a vision of a percentage mix of nuclear fossil fuels, renewables, whereas I feel like I'm fairly against it in my home country, in the UK, because we don't have a long term plan. We've had four prime ministers in the last two years. One of them wanted to build eight nuclear power stations, the next one to start fracking. I believe in an energy mix. I think there's a lot of irresponsibility talked about these days in terms of the energy transition. I do think there should be an energy mix.And then the one now wants to quadruple our offshore wind capacity in eight years, which is impossible. It's quite nonsensical. It's quite short term thinking. I'm not anti wind, I'm not pro oil, I'm not anti or pro any, anything. What I'm pro is a science based, long term, non subsidy, non corruption based market solution.On Incentives in Oil Vs “Renewables”So right now, it seems like oil is completely negative and then offshore wind is completely positive. You look at the motivations behind companies putting in offshore wind turbines or the service companies exactly the same as motivations behind all companies.Neither one is doing them. For anything other than to make money. And I think it's simplistic and a little bit silly to think that the boss of an oil company is some sort of J. R. Ewing, person that likes to run over puppies on the way home and the boss of an electricity company or a turbine installation company or whatever is some sort of, sandal wearing saint that doesn't care about money. Everyone in pretty much, I would say any corporation, that statistic about men are CEOs, they're psychopaths. All they care about is money. And I think there are a lot of like there's a lot of talk about subsidies in [renewables] On Oil's Beastly NatureIt only takes, one ignition source and then you're on top of a fireball…potential that the entire thing can blow up underneath your feet. On Life without Oil It's the world we have is impossible to have without oil. Sure. You can reduce it. It's going to run out eventually one day anyway.So reducing it is not a bad thing, but to pretend that you can just press stop and then you can put in a wind turbine is nonsensical. And the politicians know it's nonsensical as well.  The sheer scale of, Hydrocarbon involvement in our modern industrial life is so incredibly difficult to untangle. There's literally nothing more important than our energy because it ties into the availability of education and medicine and travel and communication. Right, without. some form of mass energy production. We're right back to the medieval ages.On The British State I speak from a very UK point of view because it's my country, it's my home. I feel As ever, the British state works against the British people, not for the British people, which is a contrast to some of the countries that we may look down our noses on a little bit more as not developed, where, and Japan is a great example of this, where Japan seems to do things for the benefit of Japanese people, which seems to be a controversial idea back home. Learning from Travel This is part of, traveling. You see so many countries where people are so proud of their country. Nigerians were some of the most proud people I think I've ever met, and it's the same in Japan. And I worry the direction our country's going, both the UK and the US, when we were raising a generation of children who are being taught to be embarrassed by where they come from. Though I really feel like in the West we've made a mistake over the years in trying to impose our way of looking at the world on other cultures.Post Interview Notes / Links from AndrewHere are some relevant links that might be of interest:"Empire of Dust", a fascinating documentary widely referenced online, but with no major release I don't think, that shows interaction between a Chinese contractor and locals in the DRC. It's a perfect example of culture clash, the strength in the documentary being there is no western-style narrative, it's simply two very different cultures interacting honestly with each other. The film-maker is Belgian which is particularly interesting given their colonial history in the DRC.Watch @ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5gdfm4I can particularly recommend Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness if you're interested in the dark side of colonialism, or any history of DRC or Zaire as it was. One of my favourite films is Apocalypse Now, which along with the book perfectly makes the point I was trying to, which is how these cultures are manifestly different from ours, and any attempt to convert or run these societies in a western way will ultimately end up in failure, unless it's done by complete dominance, which of course, is wrong. It's a subject I find really interesting, and my experiences in Africa really changed how I view the world.On Energy Prices “Strike Prices” and Renewables Some links explaining the Strike Price for electricity set through the CfD (Contract for Difference) mechanism that guarantees a specific rate for electricity to renewables companies.https://www.iea.org/policies/5731-contract-for-difference-cfdhttps://www.eurelectric.org/in-detail/cfds_explainer/ It's quite hard to find a non-biased article explaining this, but the basic mechanism is:What isn't always mentioned is the "top-up" when the price falls is paid to the generators by the consumer, in the UK at least, in the form of a levy on the electricity price. Which is fine in theory to have a set electricity price, but currently the UK has the 3rd highest electricity costs in the world:https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cost-of-electricity-by-countryOn British Embassy Support (Weapons:Yes / Hydrocarbons: No)UK government ending support for oil and gas sector abroad:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-announces-the-uk-will-end-support-for-fossil-fuel-sector-overseasBut no issue promoting UK weapons manufacturers:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/3/15/uk-spent-1-3m-on-security-for-worlds-biggest-weapons-fairSubsidies provided to the oil and gas industry in the US: (this can be complicated to assess because the IMF considers environmental and health costs after production as an effective subsidy, whereas the OECD and the IEA do not)https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-fossil-fuel-subsidies-a-closer-look-at-tax-breaks-and-societal-costsCorrection on Refinery Capacity in NigeriaI was slightly mistaken, there is some refinery capacity in Nigeria, in fact it's the highest in all of Africa, however it is still around half of what Houston alone produces per day.https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13203-018-0211-zOn Oil Piracy / Theft (Discussed During Interview as Another Source for Danger / Volatility / Environmental Damage) Oil pipeline theft still seems to be a problem in Nigeria sadly:https://www.pipeline-journal.net/news/explosion-nigeria-oil-pipeline-kills-12-shell-blames-crude-oil-theft-tragedyOn Working in the Pubic SectorI was thinking about one of your last questions afterwards, whether I'd ever work for the government. You know, I would actually love it, to be able to make some type of positive impact, I'd really enjoy that much more than my current job, it's just that what I would advocate is so far in the opposite direction of the UK foreign office and civil service's ethos (non-judgmental promotion of UK interest and people without imposing change on other countries) that I wouldn't get the opportunity. The British sitcom "Yes Minister" captures perfectly how the UK establishment works, it's from the 80s but still very relevant. It works to ensure the continued existence of the establishment, not the general population.AI Machine Transcription - Enjoy the Glitches!Andrew: The sheer scale of, Hydrocarbon involvement in our modern industrial life is so incredibly difficult to untangle.There's literally nothing more important than our energy because it ties into the availability of education and medicine and travel and communication. Right, without. some form of mass energy production. We're right back to the medieval ages.Leafbox: Andrew, thanks so much for making time for me. I know you're a busy guy. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Actually, when I first met you, I was actually fascinated with your work because you're one of the few people I know who has jumped from the oil sector to a climate friendly energy sector, I call it, so I was very curious about your perspectives on both. Having, your wife told me that you lived in Baku and that alone, it is probably a book's worth of questions. Andrew, why don't we just start tell us who you are, where you are, what's the weather like in Fukuoka? And where are you from?Andrew: Well, the most important thing the seasons in Japan seem to follow rules like the rest of Japan. So it's got the memo recently that it's not summer anymore, which is great because summers here are pretty brutal. And it's cloudy and rainy, which from someone from Scotland is nice and familiar.Yeah, I guess be brief biography. I'm Scottish from the North of Scotland. This is usually the point where someone says, well, you don't sound Scottish, but that's because I was born down in England. But moved up Scott, two parents from very remote rural part of Scotland. And we moved up when I was about six.So I went to the local university Aberdeen which at the time was the oil capital of Europe. So with a passion for engineering and a desire to Just have adventure really as a young guy wanting to see the world. Also oil is always historically been very well paid. Probably along the lines of, I don't know, market wise, your career options, lawyer, doctor, that sort of thing, which was never really my interest in an oil worker.So anyway financial motivations, adventure motivations, just an interest in big, heavy engineering pushed me in that direction. I joined, graduated, I took a master's in offshore engineering graduated and joined Halliburton about six weeks before 9 11. So this was in the year of of Dick Cheney, of course then I eventually ended up working offshore.For a company that worked on drilling rigs, doing directional surveys, so you would run drilling tools down the well and that was quite life changing, really very exciting. A lot of. Pressure. This is all gonna make me sound very old, but pre smartphone days. So you were a lot more on your own in those days.I did that for four years. Then I ended up running operations in Lagos, Nigeria. Did that for three years, joined a Norwegian company, worked for them in Aberdeen, and then again, oil service. And ended up running their operations in Baku and Azerbaijan. Then COVID came along and like for a lot of people turned the world upside down.So with the low oil price ended up being made redundant and Really struggled for about a year or so to find work and then it wasn't ideological either one way or another in terms of the energy transition, it's quite heavily marketed these days but I'm not overly convinced that it's as easy as politicians seem to say it is but I took a job for a company drilling offshore foundations.And I was working on a nuclear power station, the cooling shafts for a nuclear power station. And then I simply got a job offer one day an online recruiter to come to Japan to work on offshore wind which has some, Close. It's basically the same things I was doing, except it was in nuclear.So yeah, none of it's been a straight line or a plan, but just the opportunity came up. We really wanted to have another period abroad. So we took the move and then I find myself on a beach speaking to yourself after about a year or so. Leafbox: So Andrew, going back to university time, exactly what did you study? Was this petroleum engineering? Or Andrew: It was no, it was mechanical engineering. But being in it was Robert Gordon university in Aberdeen, but being in Aberdeen, it was very heavily oil influenced at the time. I was actually. obsessed with cars and motorbikes, anything with an engine. So I really wanted to do automotive, but I didn't have the grades to go to a lot of the bigger universities down South.And I was 16 when I went to university and didn't really want to go too far. So I did mechanical. And then that led on to a degree in offshore engineering at the same university, which was completely oil focused. Leafbox: And then Andrew, can you tell me a little bit about the makeup of, the demographics of when you entered the oil industry and especially in Scotland and what were these offshore platforms like, you have engineers with high degrees and then what about the workers themselves?Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. So, your average rig is made up of a lot of different job functions. At the top or guess with the most responsibility. So you've got your company that own the rig. They're the drilling contractor and they have their personnel the guy that manages the rig, and then they have all different personnel, including all the deck crew and all the roughnecks raised about, but then you have the oil company that contracts them.And they have someone offshore running it, but they have a lot of engineers. And then you have all these like service companies, which is what I've worked for that come in and do things. So you typically have on the oil company sides. You'd have someone with, degrees, you'd have like their graduate programs, you'd have young people coming offshore, their first time offshore, but they'd be quite high up relatively.And then you would have your deck crew, mechanics, electricians, which typically weren't university educated. And the guys right at the very top who'd be like, Oh, I am like the rig manager generally, especially in the old days, wouldn't be university educated, but they would just have worked offshore for a very long time.So that they'd be very knowledgeable and skilled in what we're doing. A lot of them took degrees as, technology increased. And it became, more important to have a degree, but especially in the old days, although I think at that level in that job, people wouldn't have had degrees, but you do have, it is a big mix between like I said, your deck crew and the people that are more like the, engineers, geologists, et cetera.And I can't speak for every region, but you do find that you've got, so say the comparative salary or career prospects of a welder, or a mechanic or somewhere you've suddenly got someone who could earn, I don't know, in the U S but in the UK, maybe Twenty five twenty twenty five thousand pounds a year.Maybe, like three years ago in their offshore making like 60, and it's I think it's the same thing in the U. S. you have people from very poor areas that can go offshore and just, quadruple more there their salaries and it's a, But there's a reason why they're, there's a reason why they're getting paid that is because it's a lot more difficult and dangerous when you're away from home and stuff. It's a strange old mix in a lot of ways. Leafbox: And then can you describe for people just what the actual dangers are? Give people an image of what these platforms are like to be on them and how to build them and the complexity of these devices.Andrew: There's so you have there's a lot of different forms, but basically you have a drilling rig. which can be like a semi submersible which floats or a jack up which legs are like sitting on the ground or you could even have a ship that comes like, it all depends on the the depth of the water depth usually.So you'll have this vessel that drills a well and then eventually, so they'll drill a number of wells and then you'll have a platform which is fixed to the seabed usually and then that can that has like a. A wellhead that connects all the wells and then takes the hydrocarbons on board and then it might pump it to another bigger platform or it pumps it to some like somewhere where it's processed and then it's pumped on shore.There's different. There's common dangers. Everything from there've been a number of helicopter incidents over the years. Generally, a lot of these rigs are so far away that you'll take a, you'll take a chopper backwards and forwards. And it's been well documented of things like gearbox failures and stuff.You're probably one of the biggest, I don't have the HSC statistics in front of me, but one of the biggest injuries are probably slips, trips and falls. Because, your average drilling rig has maybe four or five levels to it, and you're up and down stairs all day with big boots on and a hard hat and glasses and stuff, and people tripping on themselves.Obviously drilling, you've got well you've got a lot of overhead lifts, a lot of people get injured with the fingers getting caught between loads roughnecks, raced abouts on the drill floor when they're handling drilling pipe. I've met a lot of people over the years that have got one or more fingers missing, because it's very easy to get your finger nipped between two things are being lifted, especially when people put their hands on to try and direct them.And then obviously the pressure of the hydrocarbons look at deep water horizon, for example the oil and the gas, It's funny listening to your podcast with Jed about oil being sentient that the pressure that the oil is under.So when you tap into, obviously it wants to go, it wants to go up and out. And then that could literally rip a rig apart if it's not if it's not controlled. And then obviously you've got the ignition risk, which, you've got Piper Alpha in the UK and you've got, like I say, Deepwater Horizon, there's been a number of rig explosions and then going back to what I said about platforms.So Piper Alpha was a platform and that was processing gas. So you have 100 and 170, 200 odd people working and living. on a structure offshore where there are like an enormous amount of gas that's being pumped. extracted and pumped like underneath their feet and it only takes, one ignition source and then you're on top of a fireball.And I remember being offshore when they're flaring, which is a process whereby they burn off excess gas and just being stunned by the ferocity of the noise, nevermind the heat of the, that it's just like a primal hour, you, you can stand a couple of hundred. Yards away from it and you can feel it on your face, it's just, it's very different.I've been offshore on a wind turbine installation vessel, which has the same offshore industrial risks in terms of lifted injuries, slips, trips, and falls and suspended loads. But you don't have that. You don't have that like potential that the entire thing can blow up underneath your feet.Leafbox: So with this danger and this kind of. wild beast underneath you. How did the men and women respond? You had in your email, a little bit of this kind of cowboy culture. I'm curious what the culture of these workers are like, and maybe in Scotland and what you've seen around the world. If these people aren't usually they're more working class or what's the relationship with them and the engineers and yeah, tell me about that.Andrew: It's it's a very, it's a very masculine environment. That's not to say that there aren't women offshore in the industry. There, there absolutely are. And there, there are more and more these days especially in certain countries, like in Scandinavia, for instance But it's a very, especially when you get down to the deck crew, it's a very, the recruits are very masculine, very like macho environment.It's quite a tough environment. It's a very hard working environment. The it's not that people I wouldn't say a matter of fact to say the opposite in terms of people having a cavalier attitude to safety. There have been a number of incidents over the years in the industry and each incident spurred along quite a lot of improvements in health and safety.So I'd say probably in terms of. Industry, it's probably one of the safest industries, well, it's probably one of the industries with the best safety attitude. I'm sure maybe nuclear is probably up there as well, but people are aware offshore of the risks. There's a huge QHSE industry.There's a, most companies have some form of a HSE system, which allows anyone from someone who works for the camp boss, like someone who changes the sheets, the cleaners, the cooks to like the driller can stop operations if they think that something is dangerous and there can't be any comeback, and stopping operations offshore is a big deal.Because the average. Rigorate is, it fluctuates, but the average is, I don't know, a few hundred thousand, I don't know what it is at the moment, but let's say up to maybe a half a million more for the biggest rates, biggest rigs per day. That's what, 20, 000 an hour. So if you see something that's dangerous and you stop it for a couple of hours that's a lot of money.So it takes a lot of nerve to do that, but the industry has been pretty good. They have these systems called stop cards. Like I say, Different companies have different names for it, but it gives the ability to It gives you authority for someone not to be forced into doing something that they think is dangerous.So overall, I actually think the health and safety culture is quite good. But if you look at Deepwater Horizon, that was a classic example of even at the corporate level, people being frightened to say no and frightened to halt operations. So that does still persist due to the sheer amount of money involved.Leafbox: And then tell me about in your email, you had a quote line about, these workers spending their money, maybe not as wisely. I'm curious to describe and understand the cowboy. I have this image, my father worked for Exxon for a long time. And his biggest problem was piracy. They had so much issues with piracy, but this was in the Caribbean. So it's just constantly people stealing oil from them. So maybe yeah, tell me how it is now after I guess 2000s, how it's changed. You're describing this very safe sounding MBA driven culture, but I have trouble.Yeah. Tell me what it's like around the world. Andrew: So that's the sort of the day to day attitude offshore, which is pushed very heavily by the oil companies. It's a lot of recording. They record lost time statistics which also not to get sidetracked, but that has a slightly negative effect as well in terms of if a rig has, say.That they'll, quite often rigs will have a big display when you arrive and it says this amount of days from the last accident and if they go like a year without any LTIs, everyone on the rig could get like an iPad or some sort of bonus or something and it's a big deal not to have incidents that cause a loss of time and that, by that if someone has to go to hospital, someone has to leave the rig, but that also does encourage it can encourage hiding of things, someone maybe, they've smashed their finger, but can they just maybe report it, but maybe just go on like light duties or something rather than go to the hospital before, before their shift change sort of thing which does happen and it's not healthy.But anyway, to get back to your point I think it comes from, as I say it's, a way for someone who would have no other avenue to earn the amount of money that they would get offshore by taking on the additional risk and being away from home. So say an electrician, your average construction electrician wages are probably pretty good these days, but if you take someone working in, some rural place in, in the States who is like a car mechanic or something, and then they go offshore And they're multiplying their salary, but they're multiplying their salary, perhaps coming from an environment where no one's ever had that type of money.They're coming home with maybe try to think of some people I've known, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year when their salary may have been I don't know, sub six figures, but they don't come from an environment where that sort of money is common. So you then have a situation whereby they are the one person in their family or town or their local bar.who has loads of money, who's been away from home for four weeks, but he doesn't have the most stable relationship precisely because they're not at home, but yet they've got loads of money and loads of time. You can see how that can encourage perhaps resentment. Or just a feeling of alienation from that community.That sort of person, say they have a lot more money than their friends, maybe they want to buy them drinks, but then do they want to have to do that all the time? I've known people that have been divorced multiple times, that have bought boats and all sorts of things that they never use and they end up with, paying for There are families that they never see, the families that get remarried, the kids that they never see.I've worked with directional drillers that I've got a wife in one country, an ex wife in another country, kids that don't like them, and they just pay for all these families. They get onshore and then they spend the next couple of weeks with some, teenage prostitute blowing all the money on that drink for the rest of the month and then they're back offshore.the shakes and then they decompress over the month and then the cycle repeats itself. So in the one sense, it's a fantastic opportunity for social mobility, but it also can leave a lot of chaos behind it. And I'm certainly not at all. And having come from a work class background myself, I'm not certainly saying that.It shouldn't be there. I think it's a positive thing and it's up to these people what they want to do with their money. I'm just saying it's an interest in social observance that it's, you don't get that many working class people that can leave school and have a manual trade and can go and be a lawyer or a doctor or a CEO but you are all of a sudden getting these people in situations who are making the same amount of money, but without the family structure.Or the societal structure that can prepare them for that.Leafbox: Jumping to the next topic, I'm curious, you first mentioned Dick Cheney, what was your relationship, you're in Scotland, and how does that fiddle in with the Middle East? oil wars and just the general kind of, I feel like when my father worked in oil, there wasn't that much of a hostility in the general environment.It was just people drove cars and you worked in the oil industry and it wasn't that. So in post 2000, I would say things change both from the climate perspective and then from the kind of American imperialist association with oil. Andrew: It's changed massively in terms of hostility. Just, it's just like night and day. So when I graduated, I remember being at school in the early nineties and there was, I don't think it was climate, no, no global warming. It was called then. So there was discussion of it.But the greenhouse the ozone layer was the big deal. And there was environmentalism, Greenpeace was quite big at that time. But. The, there was no stigma like whatsoever into going into the oil industry. And you could see that in terms of the courses at the time they were called there was like drilling engineering courses, offshore engineering courses petroleum engineering.You go back to the same universities now and it's like energy transition. I think you'll struggle to find that many courses that have got the words petroleum or drilling in it. And also it was very easy to get a job in those days in the industry. The, yeah the Gulf War, so the second Gulf War at the time working for Halliburton, I was very conscious of, it was very interesting to me how the company was structured.So you had Halliburton Energy Services and you had KBR, Kellogg, Brennan, Root, and they were the company that won the uncontested contract to rebuild in Iraq. But the way the company was structured. Was that they were that they were split up basically. So if one of them had gone down the toilet for any of these issues, they were separated.I was very happy to join Haliburton. It was a big career wise. I thought it was very good. I look back now, it's funny how I look back, like inside, I look back on that whole Iraq war with absolute horror now, but I had grown up with Free internet with, what at the time were considered authoritative news sources with the BBC and British newspapers.It might sound naive, but you believe that people are doing the right thing. And I just thought at the time that, that, we were going into Iraq because it was a very bad person there. And I look back now, with I look at Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld and all the things that have happened with absolute horror.But at the time it just seemed quite straightforward. My, my view on the oil industry hasn't changed in terms of, I, I believe in an energy mix. I think there's a lot of irresponsibility talked about these days in terms of the energy transition. I do think there should be an energy mix.I don't think it should be any one source of energy. But I feel like we're in the same position that we're in before except instead of it being everyone's desperate to make money out of oil. I think everyone's desperate to make money out of renewables these days. Leafbox: Well, before we jump to that point, I want to I think that's a big topic we'll go to, but tell me about your jump to Nigeria.You're still naive then, or eager help, Nigerian oil industry or what you get assigned to Nigeria. What's that like? Andrew: Well, so I so that four years of us, so the three years I worked for that company originally was on it was on an ad hoc basis. So basically I would be at home. I'd get a phone call.And I could, I had to live within 45 minutes of the airport but I usually got at least a day. Sometimes it wasn't, it will, it was literally a day. Sometimes it was like a week, but I would get a call and then I could go anywhere in a region was Europe, Africa, Caspian. So I could go anywhere.Most of it was in West Africa. So I would go and work offshore in the Congo. Not the DRC, but the Republic of Congo Gabon, Nigeria, but all over Europe and occasionally like the Far East. So I had a lot of experience of Africa at that point. My very first, one thing I did want to, I was thinking the other day, one thing I did want to mention was when I first went, in terms of naivety, when I first time I ever went to Africa was in the Congo.And I'd grown up in the eighties where we had Live Aid was basically anyone's kind of opinion of Africa. And I remember at school we used to be forced to sing Do They Know It's Christmas, like every Christmas. So that was everyone's opinion of Africa was like just basically starving children. And I arrived in the Congo.They've got quite a decent airport now in Point Noir, but when I arrived it was literally a concrete shed with arrivals on one side and departures on the other and just like sand on the ground. And I can't remember coming out of that totally by myself just with my Nokia phone with the local contacts phone number and all these little kids appeared like Tugging it, tugging at my trousers asking for money and I was absolutely horrified I'd never seen like poverty like that and I felt horrible that I couldn't help them.But it's funny how You not that I don't care about children, but you harden yourself to what the reality of life is like in places like that. And I did that for three years. I was in Angola rotating for a year. In Cabinda, which is a chevron camp. And then I I got the job in Nigeria.And actually my father passed away just before I got that job. So I was a bit rudderless at that point. I really enjoyed it got to me in the end, I was there for three years and I started to get very frustrated when I was at home, that's when I thought I need to make a change.But there's a sort of happy level of chaos, I found. It's. in Nigeria, where things are, they don't work in the sense that they would do in, in, in what you'd call, developed countries. You can't rely on things to work. You can't really rely on people in a certain sense, but there's a sort of happy, it's difficult to explain.Like it's just, It's a very chaotic place, a very noisy, chaotic place. But once you accept that it's quite a good laugh actually. I have some quite happy memories from working there. Leafbox: So Andrew, when you enter in these places you first described your kind of exposure to Congo, but how do you conceptualize the interaction between the Western oil companies and I guess the local developing country?Do you think about that? Or are all the workers local? Or is everyone imported from all over the world? And Andrew: There's a big move towards localization in pretty much any location I've been which is, which has changed over the years. So when I first started working say in Africa, as an example.Pretty much all of the deck crew, all of the roughnecks were all Africans or locals from whichever ever country you're in. But once you got to the upper levels, like the Western oil companies, you would have, so you'd have like drill engineers, which weren't. You might describe them as like project managers of the drilling operations.So there you would have kind of a mix of locals and expats, but you pretty much always find once you went above that to like drilling managers. You'd find all what they call company men, which are the company's representative offshore, pretty much always expats. That has changed over the years, which I think is a very positive thing.A lot of countries, Azerbaijan's like this, a lot of countries in Africa, Nigeria is like this. They put within the contracts, like a local content. So for a company to win the license and which is then cascaded down to the subcontractors, you have to have a percentage of local employees and you have to have a system for replacing your senior people, training up locals and replacing them over time, which I think is very positive because after all, it's there.Oil is their resources. There are in certain locations with certain companies, a pretty bad history. Shell Nigeria, for example. You can your listeners can look all this up, but there have been, various controversies over the years on the whole, I think on the whole, I think.that it's a positive for these countries because I look at it in terms of a capitalist sort of capitalist approach that, you know and it's almost like the thing that I was saying where you have like someone who comes from a family or a class where they are not exposed to money and all of a sudden they have a huge amount of money where you could say the same thing with some tiny country where by a that they've had a level of civilization and a level of like income over the years and all of a sudden someone discovers oil and there's no way you can reasonably expect a society to just, you can't take somewhere that goes from like tribal pre industrial revolution conditions and make it New York City overnight.It's just, it's not going to happen. And just expanding that slightly, I was in Papua New Guinea in the eastern part And up in the highlands on a well site a while ago. And that was fascinating because Papua New Guinea is still, it's a country, but it's still very tribal. So once you leave Port Moresby you're really, it's not like you're going to call the police if someone tries to assault you or call an ambulance or something.It's very much like I say, pre industrial revolution, tribal. societies, but they're sitting on billions of dollars of gas. So you get these little pockets of on the shore drilling rigs. And they're just pumping millions and billions of dollars worth of gas out from under your feet, but they pay the locals.And the site that I was on right at the top of the hill overlooking it was a big mansion owned by the who, as soon as he started drilling, he would get 10 million. And then, as I was informed, would probably disappear down to Australia and, enrich the local casinos and stuff. But, who is to say that is, would it be great if he built a hospital and built a school and improved the lives of everyone around him?Oh, of course it would. But who's to say morally that we Chevron should be, I understand the point that maybe Chevron should be building these things, but who is to say that the condition should be attached to what that chief spends his money on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I I think I place a lot of responsibility on hydrocarbons are located.I do think there have been a lot of very negative practices by By all companies over the years, and they absolutely have a duty to maintain the environment. But I think it's a bit hypocritical. I see a lot of rich Western countries, especially now saying to a lot of poorer, undeveloped countries that they shouldn't be drilling or they shouldn't be, should be using the money differently.And I think, well, it's their resource. I look at it more from a capitalist point of view, rather than, like I said in my email, I'm quite anti interventionist in that sense. So historically I'm going to, this continues now, but there have been issues with literally, so they put these big pipelines through people's villages and the way that a lot of these things are organized is like I said, about Papua New Guinea they'll contact, the tribal chief and we'll pay a rent or some sort of fee to, to put these big pipelines through, through these small places.But there are some times when, I haven't, I, the right tribal chief or they've not paid enough or there's some sort of dispute and you will get villagers literally drilling into these oil pipelines with drills and buckets to steal the oil. And of course someone's doing it and they're smoking or there's some sort of ignition source and the whole thing erupts and, the village is burnt and it's a horrible, tragedy but it's just it's a funny, again, it goes back to the theory of what I was saying, the juxtaposition of that very valuable resource with a very, with a civilization, with a community, probably better way of putting it, who has never had access to that amount of money.So you're literally pumping these, this thing through their village that is worth more money than they'll ever see in their lifetime. And obviously the temptation to try to take some of that. is there, almost like understandably, but then again it quite often results in a lot of death and destruction.So that's yeah, it's just it's part of the whole industry in a lot of ways. And other industries, when you look at things like lithium mining and diamonds and stuff, you have a very high value resource That has been, by pure chance, located in a very poor part of the world and it results in these tragedies sometimes.Leafbox: I was going to ask you about the processing of oil. So when export the raw crude. Mostly the oils and process somewhere else. You were, you're taking the oil from Nigeria. Like Venezuela, they have to ship it all to Houston or whatnot to get turned into different solvents and gasoline. And, Andrew: This is probably when I'll need some fact checking, but my recollection of the time in Nigeria was that they weren't processing the oil on shore.I stand corrected if that's wrong, but my understanding was that they weren't, or at least there wasn't very many refineries, so it was basically all, like you said, extracted and then sent abroad. To be refined. That's certainly the situation in in Papua New Guinea. A lot of it is turned an LPG there and then shipped abroad.I guess I would guess, I would assume that would be the situation in a lot of West African countries for a lot of reasons, you have an established. Supply chain, you have established skill set in other places, then it comes down to cost and then you have the security of, you can imagine the enormous amount of investment you would need in a refinery.And would you rather do that in a place that's had a history of civil war, or would you take the cost to ship it abroad and do it somewhere else, Leafbox: no, it's understandable. I think that's important for listeners to understand that. The refinery in Louisiana or whatnot, or, it's so massive, it's billions of dollars and it's such a dangerous place to work also. Right. Those are just like literally atomic bomb sized potential energy. Andrew: The one thing that, there's always been, say in Scotland, there's been a little bit of resentment towards, Aberdeen and they're all like rich up there from other places in Scotland, but I think that there is, people are aware of Deepwater Horizon and Piper Alpha, et cetera, but I do think that there has been an underappreciation of the, just the Crazy risks that are involved when you're working offshore and handling hydrocarbons.Like I said, you take a helicopter to work with all the risks that I had in, in tails, and then you spend a month or so working on top of something that is effectively, a bomb if if things aren't handled properly. And you're, how far away are you from like emergency services?There are supply vessels and stuff, but. It's very much an environment where you have to just be very careful and very aware of dangers, which I think the industry now has got very good at. But yeah, the wages are high, but they're high for a reason. It's not it's not an easy, it's not an easy job in terms of that.And like I alluded to before, in terms of family stability, working away and coming back is not really conducive quite often to, to a healthy home life.Leafbox: Going back to Angola for a second I read an account of the Chinese are very heavily in Luanda and Angola, and they had the terrible civil war.But one of the things that really stood out to me is that all the Chinese use Chinese labor. So their oil boats are all Chinese workers and they often use ex felons, which I thought was interesting. But there's, I guess they, all these ex felons in Angola, I don't know if you saw this, I wanted to confirm it, but there's a lot of half Chinese, half Angolan children now because all the Chinese roughnecks.They're all men. So there's a booming Angolan prostitution and it just was so wild. Angola think Luanda is the most expensive city in the world. But then the most violent too, so yeah, just what's your general impressionAndrew: I I've been in Luanda in total, probably just a couple of days.Most of my time was spent in a, so Chevron Texco have this place called Cabinda. Which is actually, technically speaking, if you look at the map, it's not actually connected to Angola, you've got Angola, then you've got a little gap, and then you've got Cabinda, which is the little gap is part of the DRC, I think but Cabinda is where all the onshore processing of the oil is.It's part of Angola and it's like a prisoner of war camp and you go up there and you can't leave pretty much until you've finished your work. But my impression of Lulanda wasn't great at all. I remember driving into it and there's these massive shanty towns on the edge of the city with just like literal rubbish tipped down the side of these hills.And then you get into the city and it's just a. massive continual traffic jam with Porsche Cayennes and Range Rovers and G Wagons. And it just felt in the way that I was describing Lagos and even Port Harcourt, which has a pretty bad reputation as a sort of, chaotic, but fun sort of chaos.I felt and this is just my personal impression, I felt Lwanda was chaos, but dangerous chaos. Not you wouldn't stay in a staff house there and you wouldn't go out for a drink anyway. You wouldn't even really go out for lunch much. You just stayed in. It looked to me like as if you'd taken a European city, which I guess it, that's how it was built.And then you just start maintaining it from like 1960s onwards, but then you'd add it in a civil war and I appreciate the civil war was like a proxy civil war and then just didn't repair any infrastructure and just peppered the whole place with like bullet holes.It wasn't, it was not particularly, it's not a place that I would recommend to be quite honest with you. In terms of the Middle East, the comparison with the Middle East I've not really worked that much in the Middle East, to be quite honest with you. I guess my closest is the Caspian, which is more Central Asia, but that was way more structured.Yes, there's massive amounts of corruption, massive amounts of poverty. But yeah, absolutely more structured and less chaotic in that sense. Leafbox: Andrew, what's the relationship in Nigeria, there's famous activists who, like the Shell, they polluted so heavily, but then I guess the military tribunals would erase or disappear people.Maybe this is before you worked there, but what, as, what was the relationship of the company men with the government? Was there open kind of corruption or? What was your general vibe of is the manager's job and kind of getting these contracts. Talk to me about that. Like Deanna, how did the, you know, Exxon versus Armco or whatever it is, whoever's ever getting these contracts, there's obviously backdoor dealings.Andrew: Yeah, in terms of, actual drilling licenses I was never near or even remotely near the people that will be making those sort of decisions. And I'm certainly not going to allege corruption at that level. And I don't have any evidence, but what I would say, and again, all of this is just my personal opinion.It's, I'm not disparaging any one particular place in general, but the level of corruption. that I would see was so endemic that I just came to feel it was cultural which again, it's not really don't want to make that sound like it's a slight, to me it was an understanding of I really feel, and just briefly going back to the whole Bob Geldof Live Aid thing, I really feel like in the West we've made a mistake over the years in trying to impose our way of looking at the world on other cultures.And what I would see in most West African countries was it was just an accepted way Of living, accepted way of dealing. So you would go to the airport. We used to have these boxes that would have electronic equipment in them. And we had to hand carry them cause they were quite fragile.And then you would go to the check in desk and they would be like okay, well we have to get some stairs to lift this into the plane. So that's an extra 50. I'm not sure you actually own this equipment. It's got another company written on it. You give me a hundred dollars.Sometimes it's not quite said, you'll just get so much hassle and you'd see other, you'd see some people there that would freak out in case thinking that they were gonna, arrested or something. They just open their wallet and hand over loads of money. The, but it's not it's not like some under the table nefarious plot it's just like the checking guy is getting paid next to nothing He sees someone who's obviously got all my money and he has How can I get that money off him and it's at every single level my I mean I suppose I would say I was wise to it, but even I would make naive mistakes.I remember on a leaving day when I left Nigeria I had this driver who I'd still consider a friend. I messaged him on Facebook sometimes, and he was a really nice young guy who would go out of his, literally out of his way to help me. And I made the silly mistake of handing in my bank card on my like, leaving due.I'd had a little bit to drink and I just thought, surely it'll be fine. And of course I get back to the UK, I check my statement and there's a couple of hundred dollars missing or a hundred pounds missing. At the time I was like, that must be a bank error, surely not. But I look back in it now and I just think, again, this isn't, this honestly isn't even a criticism, it's just the culture is to try and hustle.And if you, if it doesn't work, well, I tried. It's just, it's endemic in that sense. I don't doubt that there most likely have been over the years some very shady practices on the behalf of Western oil companies and Western governments. You only have to look at the history of, BP and the UK government and Americans in Iran and coups to get oil and all these sorts of things.But I'm just talking about like the corruption that I've seen, it seemed, Cultural in that sense. It's just everywhere. The one thing that I would say is that companies I've worked for within the contracts is very heavy anti corruption. So the FCPA, if I'm remembering that right, in the US. The anti corruption laws are very strong to the point where if a company official from a country, say like Scotland, is a manager and he signs off on a bribery expense, he can actually, if I'm right in recalling this, he can end up going to jail himself for that.So a hundred percent, I'm sure it's happening by at the same time legally, there are some very strict laws against it. Leafbox: When they just outsource to local sub providers, that's what I would imagine they do to get around that. Andrew: I think it's a case of well, just don't tell me sort of thing.Leafbox: Yeah. Andrew: I'm pretty sure that, that's why. Well, Leafbox: I think people don't understand if you haven't been to these countries, it's just it's just not Norway. It's not. Yeah. It's a very different. Yeah. Andrew: And. I, sorry to interrupt you, but I've done quite a bit of work in Norway and I have found that some countries and some cultures seem to have a difficulty accepting that the world isn't the way that they are.And I think that that, not to, not to boast or to my trumpet here, but I think that one thing that I've learned over the years is that some places they just are the way they are. And it's, of course you don't want to encourage. Corruption, you don't want to encourage mistreatment, but I don't believe it's your right.Like I'm like, I live in Japan now and some things, a lot of things about Japan I absolutely love, but there are also some things about Japan that just don't seem right to me. But it's not my place to come in and say, right, you're doing this wrong. You should be doing this the other way. It just isn't, it's not my country.And I felt the same way in Africa. There's loads of things about Nigeria that I was like, this is absolute madness. But it's their madness, it's not my madness, and I'm a guest in their country. Leafbox: What do you think the difference, in your email to me, you wrote about the colonial being British, how's that relationship been for you?You've, non interventionist now, but you wrote about, your forefathers or previous generations having quote, good intentions. Maybe tell me about that. Andrew: I think that I know that there's a lot in the UK as with America now that's quite, there's a lot of attempt to be revisionist within history and question history, which I'm a big fan of people questioning history.I just think once again, that we are tending to look at things from a very Western point of view without taking into account like global history. I know believe, through my experience of traveling, I now think, well, exactly like what I just said, I don't think it's our place to change countries to mold them in our ways, but I do have a more charitable view of a lot of our maybe not every one of them, certainly not every country's colonial adventures, but I do think that some of them were more motivated by, as I said, a Christian desire to end certain barbaric practices.If you look at, the I forget what the practice is called, but the practice of people burning their their wives on the husband's funeral pyre in India and the whole slavery, which, yes, Britain was a part of but it's quite clear that, the British Navy was very important, effective in, in, in ending the global slave trade.So I'm very proud of where I come from and I'm proud of my ancestors. I don't deny that They were put that they, there weren't some, as I said, some negative aspects and atrocities, but I just think that again, when it comes to, and I think about this more because I have kids now.So I think about how I want them to feel about the country going forward. This is part of, traveling. You see so many countries where people are so proud of their country. Nigerians were some of the most proud people I think I've ever met, and it's the same in Japan. And I worry the direction our country's going, both the UK and the US, when we were raising a generation of children who are being taught to be embarrassed by where they come from.Leafbox: Going back to oil for a second, Andrew, the colonial legacy is impossible to digest in a short interview, but do you have, what's the general like Pemex or the Venezuelan oil companies or the Russian oil companies? What's your general impression of nationalized oil companies versus the private?Andrew: Yeah. I so I guess my biggest experience is in Azerbaijan, there's a company called Soka which is the national oil company. And of course all these national oil companies, a lot of them have shares in international like private oil companies.So it's not always a clear divide of either one or the other, but I guess I, as someone who really. believes in capitalism. I think that in terms of efficiency and certainly in terms of safety, in terms of environmental compliance, I think that the private oil companies are much more answerable to activism, to just a sense of corporate responsibility than private oil companies.And if you're in somewhere like Russia, like you say, Venezuela and the national oil companies is polluting the water. Well, What are you going to do about compared to a private oil company who has, a much more, it has shareholders and I guess more of a global footprint. But I also come back to the point, as I was saying about localization that these resources are the country's resources and I think it's quite right that companies pay.I wouldn't say prohibitive amounts of tax, but I think it's quite right that companies pay a lot of money in tax when they extract the hydrocarbons, and they have local content. I guess the ideal for me is private, but with a level of public ownership. But not actually running the operations because I think as soon as you take away, as soon as you take away that meritocracy, you end up with health and safety risks, you end up with just waste, and when it comes to something like with the large amounts of money involved That just ends up taking money away from the actual people.I don't think it's, I don't think it's generally a great idea, but I think a sort of public, a bit like you see a lot here in Japan actually, a public private mix, if done properly, is probably the way to go for a lot of utilities. Leafbox: Great. So Andrew, maybe it's time to jump to the oil and energy diverse mix.Tell me about what brings you to Japan. First, you work on nuclear and now wind. Andrew: Yeah. For me, I can't claim any sort of high minded high minded drive to change from one industry to the other. It was purely, I had a mortgage and a new baby and I desperately needed a job. So that was how I made that jump.The one thing I have experienced over the years, it's certainly the place I've worked. It's very, Unless you're in a region that has like a national oil company, it's even then I guess depends who you are. It's very meritocratic, but it's quite cutthroat. So oil companies, service companies, as soon as oil price drops, it's very cyclical.People just get made redundant. People, I saw people at Halliburton had been there for literally 40, 50 years being made redundant just because the share price dropped a few points. I've been made redundant twice myself. And yeah, it's just horrible. And there's nothing you can do about it because it's an economic decision.It's nothing to do with your performance. And that happens to, it's probably very few people on the street that hasn't happened to It's the downside of the high salary really. So coming into wind it was really an opportunity to, as I say, we wanted to live abroad again for a little while.And opportunities to live in Japan don't come by very often. And it's interesting. It's interesting. It's very different. It's interesting from an engineering point of view. It's a lot of heavy lifts. And Japan, I think Japan has a good attitude towards offshore wind, because everything else, Japan has a long term vision.It has a vision of a percentage mix of nuclear fossil fuels, renewables, whereas I feel like I'm fairly against it in my home country, in the UK, because we don't have a long term plan. We've had four prime ministers in the last two years. One of them wanted to build eight nuclear power stations, the next one to start fracking.And then the one now wants to quadruple our offshore wind capacity in eight years, which is impossible. It's quite nonsensical. It's quite short term thinking. I'm not anti wind, I'm not pro oil, I'm not anti or pro any, anything. What I'm pro is a science based, long term, non subsidy, non corruption based market solution.Obviously you've got environmental aspect of climate change, et cetera, which needs to be taken into account. But I found, I find a lot of the attitude towards renewables and towards the energy mix quite histrionic and not really based on facts. Leafbox: Do you ever think about, geopolitics as an engineer in terms of, where these pressures are coming from.Europe particularly seems so against oil and hydrocarbons, but if you do any scientific research, you just, there's the capacity of hydrocarbons to produce energy is just unparalleled in terms of the input to output. And wind is just not a realistic option. Andrew: I think that, I think there's a general I would say it's a mistake, but I think it's done on purpose, but there's a general attitude that seems to be portrayed in the media that you can have one company or one industry is virtuous and everything they do is virtuous and there are no negative connotations or motivations behind what they're doing.And then the other is just all negative. So right now, it seems like oil is completely negative and then offshore wind is completely positive. You look at the motivations behind companies putting in offshore wind turbines or the service companies exactly the same as motivations behind all companies.Neither one is doing them. For anything other than to make money. And I think it's simplistic and a little bit silly to think that the boss of an oil company is some sort of J. R. Ewing, person that likes to run over puppies on the way home and the boss of an electricity company or a turbine installation company or whatever.is some sort of, sandal wearing saint that doesn't care about money. Everyone in pretty much, I would say any corporation, that statistic about men are CEOs, they're psychopaths. All they care about is money. And I think there are a lot of like there's a lot of talk about subsidies.You just touched on it, I think. And people talk about subsidies and oil when they're talking about subsidies and oil, what they're talking about is the The fact that when you drill an oil well, which can be anything between, I don't know, 30 and like upwards of 100 million, you basically get to claim that back off the tax.Now the tax in the UK is, it was about 75 percent on the oil that they extract and profit from the oil they extract. But if you have that say 100 million cost, how many companies can drill three or four wells at 100 That you're going to get anything out of that. Very few companies can afford to take that risk.I don't think it's a bit rich to call that a subsidy when you've got the whole CFD process for offshore wind, which effectively guarantees the strike price of electricity. So you imagine if you had that for oil, you would have, You would have countries buying oil off the oil companies when the price dropped, and they don't have that, they don't have that, that, that mechanism, but you simply wouldn't get offshore winds without a decent strike price, which you've seen recently in the auctions when no one bid on the licenses in the UK, and I think it was the US as well.Leafbox: So in essence you prefer just like a free market, totally. Not a totally free market, but in the sense that a clear transparent market. So if that really incentivized the right incentives, like you're saying in Japan, they have that mix of nuclear and hydrocarbon and wind and solar. And in Japan, I always feel like they're just burning trash.That's their real power generation. Andrew: It's funny that it's such a funny place in so many ways, but you've got this island, which has, a lot of geothermal resources. But in terms of mineral resources, it's not in a great position yet. It manages to be so incredibly self sufficient in terms of industry, in terms of fuel price.Like they, they said to me when I arrived here, Oh God, it's so expensive electricity. It's like about 60 to, to a month for the electricity in your house. And it's a four bed house with five air cons on 24 seven. I'm like, geez, you just see the price UK. You'd be like, 10 times almost. So they managed to make it work, but like everything else here, like I said, it's a long term, long thought process.And Obviously, I guess we haven't really talked about it, and I'm not, I don't feel qualified even to talk about it at all, to be honest with you, but in terms of climate change, I am very much meritocratic and capitalist in that sense that I think the market will identify the most efficient.way of providing energy, but I completely accept that there needs to be a level of environmental regulation because going back to what I said, CEOs, I think of any company would do anything if it made them money. And I've seen, I saw this in Azerbaijan. You go out, you're back, he's an absolutely beautiful city, but if you look back through its history of being part of the Soviet Union, the level of just pollution was unreal and it still suffers from a lot of that, especially out with the main city. So I 100 percent agree with environmental regulations. I think that, I think there's a lot of politics behind climate change. I'm quite skeptical of international NGO organizations, especially with the last few years that we've had.But I think that the yeah, I think that Japan's got it right. I think we need a mix and we need to not. Pretend like we are doing in the UK at the moment that for instance, the electricity price in the UK is doubled since 2019. And it hasn't here in Japan, and there, there tends to be a thought of, well, we just need to do all this because climate change is going to happen.It doesn't matter that, that people are suffering now, I don't think, I think people tend to. tend to maybe forget the, it's like the, the just stop oil extinction rebellion types. It's the world we have is impossible to have without oil. Sure. You can reduce it. It's going to run out eventually one day anyway.So reducing it is not a bad thing, but to pretend that you can just press stop and then you can put in a wind

In this episode, we delve into the impact of the new groundbreaking research uncovering the RNU4-2 genetic variant linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. The discovery, made possible through whole genome sequencing, highlights a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene that affects about 1 in 200 undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, making it more prevalent than previously thought. This discovery represents one of the most common single-gene genetic causes of such conditions. Our host, Naimah Callachand, Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England, is joined by Lindsay Pearse who shares her journey through the diagnosis of her son Lars. They are also joined by Sarah Wynn, CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, Clinical Genetics Doctor and Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. We also hear from the 2 research groups who independently discovered the findings: Dr Andrew Mumford, Professor of Haematology at the University of Bristol Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03085-5  Assistant Professor Nicky Whiffin, Big Data Institute and Centre for Human Genetics at the University of Oxford Link to the research paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07773-7 To access resources mentioned in this podcast:  Unique provides support, information and networking to families affected by rare chromosome and gene disorders - for more information and support please visit the website. Connect with other parents of children carrying a variation in RNU4-2 on the Facebook group.   "I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future."   You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/How-has-a-groundbreaking-genomic-discovery-impacted-thousands-worldwide.docx  Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Lindsay: So, this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island and in this case actually there's a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope and, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity, and so now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I'm Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England. On today's episode, I'm joined by Lindsay Pearse whose son Lars recently received a genetic diagnosis, made possible by research using data from the National Genomic Research Library, Sarah Wynn CEO of Unique, and Emma Baple, a clinical genetics doctor. Today we'll be discussing the impact of recent research findings which have found a genetic change in the non-coding RNU4-2 gene, to be linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you enjoy today's episode, we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Naimah: And first of all, I would like everyone to introduce themselves. So, Lindsay, maybe if we could come to you first. Lindsay: Great, thank you. So, thank you for having me. I'm Lindsay Pearse, I live outside of Washington DC and I'm a mum to 3 boys. My oldest son Lars who is 8, he was recently diagnosed with the de novo variant in the RNU4-2 gene. Naimah: Thank you. And Emma? Emma: My name is Emma Baple. I'm a Clinical Genetics Doctor which means I look after children and adults with genetic conditions. I'm also a Professor of Genomic Medicine in the University of Exeter and the Medical Director of the Southwest NHS Genomic Laboratory Hub. Naimah: And Sarah? Sarah: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm Sarah Wynn, I'm the CEO of a patient organisation called Unique, and we provide support and information to all those affected by rare genetic conditions. Naimah: Great, thank you. It's so great to have you all here today. So, first of all Lindsay, I wonder if we could come to you. So, you mentioned in your introduction your son Lars has recently been diagnosed with the de novo variant. I wondered if you could tell us a bit about your story, and what it's been like up until the diagnosis. Lindsay: Sure, yeah. So, Lars is, he's a wonderful 8 year-old boy. With his condition, his main symptoms he experiences global developmental delays, he's non-verbal. He's had hypertonia pretty much since birth and wears AFO's to support his walking. He has a feeding disorder and is fed by a G-Tube. Cortical vision impairments, a history of seizures and slow growth, amongst other things. So, that's just a bit of a picture of what he deals with day to day. But he's my oldest child, so first baby. When I was pregnant, we were given an IUGR diagnosis. He was breech, he had a hernia soon after birth, wouldn't breastfeed. But all of these things aren't terribly uncommon, you know. But once he was about 3 or 4 months old, we noticed that he wasn't really able to push up like he should, and we were put in touch with early intervention services for an assessment. So, we went ahead and did that when he was about 4 or 5 months old. And as parents, we could just kind of tell that something was off from the assessors. And, you know, they were very gentle with us, but we could just get that sense that okay, something is off, and they're worried here. So, that kind of kickstarted me into making appointments left, right and centre with specialists. The first specialist that we saw was a neurologist. And yeah, again, that's another appointment that I'll never forget. She referred us to genetics and to get an MRI and some lab work but at the end of the appointment, she said to us, ‘Just remember to love your child.' And, you know, that was quite shocking to us at the time because it wasn't something that had ever crossed our mind that we wouldn't do or felt like we needed to be told to do this. But on the other hand, it certainly set off a lot of worry and anxiety of okay, well, what exactly are we dealing with here? So, fast forward, we saw genetics and that was about when Lars was about 8 months old. We went through a variety of genetic testing, a chromosomal micro-array, a single gene testing, then the whole exome testing. Everything came back negative, but it was explained to us that what was going on was likely an overarching genetic diagnosis that would explain his like, multi-system symptoms. And so meanwhile as he was getting older his global delays were becoming more pronounced and we were also in and out of the hospital a lot at this time. At first, he was in day care and, you know, any sort of cold virus would always turn into like a pneumonia for him. So, we were just in and out of hospital seeing a myriad of specialists, trying to put together this puzzle of what's going on and it was really hard to accept that nobody could figure it out. That was just, you know, sort of mind-blowing to us I guess. So, we applied for and were accepted into the Undiagnosed Diseases Programme at the National Institute of Health over here. The NIH as it's commonly referred to. So, we first went there when Lars was 2. He was one of their youngest patients at the time. But that was a really great experience for us because we felt like they were looking at him holistically and across a bunch of all of his systems, and not just seeing a specialist for sort of each system. So, we really appreciated that. We also did the whole genome sequencing through this research study. Although that also came back negative and so at that point, we were told to kind of keep following up symptomatically. Keep seeing the specialists and eventually maybe one day we'll find an overarching diagnosis, but that science just hadn't quite caught up to Lars. It was hard for me again to believe that and to sort of wrap my head around that. But certainly, it was an education from all of the doctors and geneticists and everyone we saw at NIH, to realise like how far there still was to go in terms of genetic research. How it wasn't also that uncommon to be undiagnosed in the rare disease community. I would say that being undiagnosed sort of became part of our identity. And it's, you know, it was something that, you know, you had to explain to like insurance companies and to his school, and it became part of our advocacy around him. Because without being able to say oh, it's this specific thing and if it was someone who hadn't met Lars before, trying to explain to them that, you know, yeah, within the range of this community you can be undiagnosed, and they just haven't found it yet, but I promise you there is something going on here. And I'd say the other thing too without a diagnosis you have no prognosis, right? And so, trying to figure out what the future would look like. Also, family planning. We waited 5 and a half years before we had another child and, you know, it was certainly an anxiety ridden decision. Ultimately after seeing as many specialists as we possibly could, we still were left with the same answer of well, we just don't really know if it will happen again. So, that was a big decision to make. But again, it just kind of became part of our identity and something that you did eventually accept. But I would say in my experience I feel like the acceptance part also of Lars' disabilities perhaps took me a little bit longer. Because again, I didn't have a prognosis, so I didn't exactly know what we were dealing with. Only as he has become older and, you know, you're sort of getting a better sense of what his abilities might be than being able to understand, okay, this is what I'm dealing with. I need to accept that and do what I can to care for him and our family in the best way that we can. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing that, Lindsay. I feel like you've touched on a lot of really, you know, a lot of complications and difficulties for your family. Especially, you know, with regards to keeping hopeful and things about the prognosis as well, I'm sure it was really difficult. You've mentioned that Lars was able to be diagnosed recently due to recent research efforts. So, Sarah, I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about these and what the findings have meant for patients with neurodevelopmental conditions. Sarah: Yes. So, I think we know that there are lots of families that are in Lindsay and Lars' position where they know that there is almost certainly an underlying genetic condition, and it just hasn't been found yet. And so, I think we know that lots of researchers are working really hard to try and find those causes. I think over time we know that as time goes on and research goes on, we'll find more of these new genetic causes for neurodevelopmental conditions. I think particularly as we start to look at regions of the genome that we haven't looked at so much so far. But I think one of the things that's really extraordinary about this one is that actually it turns out to be much more common than we might have expected, for one of these new conditions that we haven't found before. But I think it's about one in 200 of those undiagnosed children with neurodevelopmental conditions, have this diagnosis so that's not a small number. That's not a rare finding at all actually, that's much more common than we could ever have anticipated. But I think one of the things that we do know is that as we look further and deeper into that genomic sequence, so, we've started off looking at the bits of the sequence that are genes that code for proteins. This changes in a gene that actually doesn't code for protein, so it's less obvious that it would be important but clearly it is important in development because we know when it has a spelling mistake in it, it causes this neurodevelopmental condition. But there will be as researchers look more and more at these kinds of genes, and also the other part of the genome that is not genes at all, we'll find out more and more the underlying genetic causes of these neurodevelopmental conditions. I think it's also really important to stress why this is so important to find these genetic changes and it's because families really need a diagnosis. Lindsay talked quite eloquently and a lot about that knowing something was off and really wanting to know the reason why. Getting these diagnoses might change care management or treatment, but actually really importantly it just gives an answer to families who have often been looking for an answer for a really long time. Naimah: I just wanted to go back to the point that Sarah made that actually this genetic change is relatively common. Emma, I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about maybe why it took us so long to discover it? Emma: That's an interesting question actually. I suppose the sort of slightly simplified answer to that question is we haven't been able to sequence the whole of a person's genetic information for that long. And so, children like Lars would have had, as Lindsay described lots and lots of genetic tests up until they had a whole genome sequencing which is what Sarah was talking about. The types of tests that we had up until the whole genome sequencing wouldn't have allowed us to look at that bit of the genetic code where this RNU4-2 gene can be found. So, we can only really find that using whole genome sequencing. So, before that existed, we wouldn't have been able to find this cause of developmental condition. Naimah: Okay, thanks Emma. Naimah: Now we're going to hear from one of the two research groups who are responsible for these research findings. First of all, let's hear from Nicky Whiffin. (Clip - Nicky Whiffin) Naimah: How were the findings possible using the Genomics England dataset? Nicky: So, most previous studies have only looked at genetic variants that, in genes that make proteins, but only a subset of our genes actually do makes proteins. The Genomics England dataset we have sequencing information on the entire genome, not just on these protein coding genes and that means we can also look at variants in other genes. So, those that make molecules other than proteins. And RNU4-2 for example, makes an RNA molecule. Naimah: These findings translated to direct patient benefit for patients like Lars who were able to receive support from Unique. How does this demonstrate the value of the dataset? Nicky: Yes. So, it was incredible that we could find so many patients with RNU4-2 variants so quickly. This was enabled by access to Genomics England data but also to other large sequencing datasets around the world. So, we worked with people in the US, in Australia and also in mainland Europe. These large datasets enabled us to spot consistent patterns in the data and by looking across multiple datasets we can also make sure that our findings are robust. When we realised how significant this was and how many families would be impacted, we very quickly contacted Sarah at Unique to see if we could direct patients to them for support. (End of clip) Emma: There's one thing I wanted to raise. It's important to recognise the way that was discovered was through the National Genomic Research Library that Genomics England hosts. To highlight the value of that, and the value of having this centralised resource where families have been kind enough really to allow their data to be shared with some limited clinical information that allowed these researchers to be able to pull this out. And I think it highlights the power of the National Health Service in that we were able to create such a resource. It's really quite astounding that we've found such a common cause of a rare genetic condition, and it wouldn't have happened in the same timescale or in this way without that resource. And then to just say that as Sarah talked about the fact that we've been able to get that information out there, also the researchers were able to get out there and contact the NIH and all of these other programmes worldwide. In Australia, America, everywhere in the world and quickly identify new patients who had this condition and get those diagnoses out really rapidly to people. But all that came from that power of sharing data and being able to have that all in one place and making it accessible to very clever people who could do this work and find these answers. It's so important for families like Lindsay's, and all the families in England and around the world that have got these answers. So, I guess it's a big plug for the value of data sharing and having a secure place where people feel that it's trusted and safe, that enables these diagnoses to be made. Lindsay: If I could just echo that, we're so grateful that that exists in the UK. Just acknowledging like the privilege here that we have had to be able to, I mean for our family in the US, that we've been able to, you know, get ourselves into the NIH study and into the study at Children's National. That takes a lot of work. I feel like not everybody has that opportunity to be able to spend the time to do these applications and to go to all the appointments and get the testing done and have the insurance to cover it. So, very grateful that the system exists in a way in the UK that made this sort of research possible. I just hope that that can be replicated in other places, and also to what Emma was saying earlier, come up with a lower cost test as well for this to further the growth of the community and of course then the corresponding research. Sarah: I think firstly we have to sort of thank all of those families that took part and do share their data, because I think it's not always clear why you might want to do that as a family. I think this is really a powerful example of the benefit of that. I also think the data sharing goes one stage further. So, it's partly about getting the diagnosis, but the data sharing going forward about how this condition impacts families, both clinically and sort of day to day lived experience, is how we'll be able to learn more about these conditions. And so, when families get this diagnosis next week or next year, not only will they get a diagnosis, but they'll get a really good idea about what the condition is and how it might impact their child. Naimah: And Lindsay, coming back to you. So, we've talked about, you know, what it meant for your family before the diagnosis, but what has it meant to have a diagnosis and how did you feel? And what happened whenever you received the diagnosis? Lindsay: Sure. Lars was again part of the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Research study. So, once you attend this programme and if you are not diagnosed like at the end of your stay, they keep your details on file and you're part of this database at the NIH Undiagnosed Diseases Programme. So, if you're undiagnosed after your sort of week-long work up, your samples stay within the research programme. We were also part of a research programme at Children's National Medical Centre, the Rare Disease Institute. So, our samples were sort of on file there in their database as well. And so, at the end of March I was really quite shocked to receive a call from our long time and trusted geneticist at Children's National that they had found a diagnosis. It was quite emotional. I really kind of didn't believe it. I just kept asking, you know, ‘Are you sure? Is this it?' you know, ‘How confident are we?' Because I think in my head, I sort of always thought that we would eventually find a diagnosis, but I thought that Lars would be, you know, a 30- or 40-year-old adult. I thought it would be decades from now. Like I felt like for whatever reason we had to wait decades for the science to sort of catch up to him. So, we were very, very grateful. It felt very validating, I guess. I had always kind of had this intuition feeling that we were sort of missing something and it's more that the science just hadn't quite caught up yet. But, you know, it was validating to know that okay, Lars is not the only person in the entire world with this, it is something that is relatively common in fact within the rare disease community. That is also very exciting to me personally because I'm hopeful that that will lead more researchers to be interesting in this, given how, quote on quote, common it is. I've sort of been describing it as like a mass diagnosis event but also more so this feeling that like we've been on this deserted island for eight years and now all of a sudden, you're sort of like looking around through the branches of the trees. It's like, wait a minute, there are other people on this island ad in this case, there's actually a lot more people on this island. Yeah, it's very exciting, it's validating. It gives us a lot of hope. And, you know, it has been quite emotional too and also a bit of an identity shift. Because I spoke earlier about how like being undiagnosed had become quite a big part of our identity. So, now that's kind of shifting a little bit that we have this new diagnosis and are part of a new community. But yeah, we're just very grateful that the research had continued. And, you know, I think sometimes you sort of have this feeling of okay, our files are up on a shelf somewhere, you know, collecting dust and are people really looking at them? And actually, it turns out that the research was ongoing and yeah, we're just very grateful for that. Naimah: Thanks so much for sharing, Lindsay. It sounds like it's been a real rollercoaster of emotions for your family and I'm glad to hear that, you know, you've got some hope now that you've got a diagnosis as well. So, moving onto the next question. Emma, I wanted to ask you then, how will these findings improve clinical diagnostic services for those for neurodevelopmental conditions? Emma: So, you asked me earlier about why it had taken so long to find this particular cause of neurodevelopmental condition, and I gave you a relatively simple answer. The reality is one of the other reasons is that almost eight out of ten children and adults who have RNU4-2 related neurodevelopmental condition have exactly the same single letter spelling change in that gene. So, actually that in itself means that when researchers are looking at that information, they might think that it's actually a mistake. Because we know that when we sequence genetic information, we can see mistakes in that sequencing information that are just because the machine has, and the way that we process that data, it's not perfect. So, sometimes we find these little mistakes and they're not actually the cause of a person's problems, they're just what we call an artefact or an issue with the way that that happens. So, that is part of the reason for why it was tricky for us to know whether this was, or rather the researchers to know whether this was or was not the cause of this particular condition. But that in itself is quite helpful when we think about how we might identify more people who have this going forwards. Because unlike in Lars' case where we didn't know what the cause was and so we were still searching, and we didn't know where to look in the billions of letters that make up the genetic code to find that answer, we now know that this is really very common. It's unbelievably common. I think we didn't think we would be finding a cause of a rare genetic condition that was this commonly occurring at this stage. But the fact that it's just a single, it's commonly this one single change in the gene means that we can set up pretty cheap diagnostic testing. Which means that if you were somewhere where you wouldn't necessarily have access to whole genome sequencing, or a more comprehensive testing in that way, we could still be able to pick up this condition. And it's common enough that even if you didn't necessarily recognise that a person had it, you could still have this as part of your diagnostic tool kit for patients who have a neurodevelopmental condition. It's common enough that just doing a very simple test that could be done in any diagnostic lab anywhere in the world, you would be able to identify the majority of people who have this. Naimah: Now let's hear from the other research group who are responsible for these findings. Here is Dr Andrew Mumford. (Clip - Dr Andrew Mumford) Naimah: Why are these research findings significant? Andrew: It offers genetic diagnosis not just for a handful of families but potentially for many hundreds of families, who we all know have been searching often for many, many years for a genetic diagnosis. But actually, there are other gains from understanding how this gene causes neurodevelopmental disorder. We know that there's GRNU4-2 in codes, not a protein actually, but a small nuclear RNA which is unusual for rare, inherited disorders. It's a component of a very complicated molecule called the spliceosome which in turn regulates how thousands of other genes are regulated, how they're made into proteins. So, fundamentally this discovery tells us a lot about the biology of how the spliceosome works. We already know that some other components of the spliceosome can go wrong, and result in diseases like neurodevelopmental disorders. This gives us an extra insight and actually opens the door to, I hope, a whole load of more discoveries of genetic diagnosis possible from other components of this complicated molecule. Naimah: Your research group used a mathematical modelling approach. Can you tell me a bit about this, and what this means for other rare conditions, Andrew? Andrew: So, identifying relationships between changes in individual genes and different kinds of rare, inherited disease is notoriously difficult because of the volume of data that's involved and the need to be absolutely certain that observed genetic changes are actually the cause of different rare, inherited disease. So, applying statistics to that kind of problem isn't new. But what my collaboration group have achieved here, is to develop, actually developed some years ago a completely new approach to applying statistics to genetic data. We call that BeviMed and we've been working for many years on the genes in code that make individual proteins. Most rare disorders are caused by genetic changes in genes that make proteins. What this discovery comes from is actually we've applied the BeviMed statistical technique to genes that don't make proteins, they're non-coding genes. For example, genes that make small nuclear RNA, it's just like RNU4-2. What's unusual about the BeviMed approach is that it's very sensitive to detecting links between genetic changes and rare diseases, and it can detect statistical associations really driven by very, very small numbers of families. So, we apply it to datasets like the 100,00 Genomes dataset and identify associations using statistics that have got a very high probability of association. Other members of the team then seek to corroborate that finding by looking at if we can see the association in other datasets, and we certainly achieve that with RNU4-2. But also, assessing biological plausibility by investigating what we understand already about in this case, a small nuclear RNA, and how it can possibly result in a disease. And we normally try and employ other independent evidence such as experimental investigation. Or going back to our families and asking for additional data to help really test this sort of theory that changes in this particular gene have resulted in a problem with neurodevelopment. (End of clip) Naimah: Emma, are there any other ways that we can identify these conditions based on their clinical presentation? Emma: So, Lindsay and I were talking with you just yesterday, wasn't it? And I asked Lindsay about what sorts of things Lars had in common with other children and adults who have been diagnosed with this condition? I actually think Lindsay probably gives a better summary than I would, so I might ask you to maybe repeat what you said to me yesterday. But the bit of it that really stood out to me was when you said to us that a lot of parents have said, ‘I'm not sure how we weren't all put together in the first place because you notice so many things that were in common.' So, maybe if you can give that summary and then I can translate that back into medical terms, if that's okay Lindsay. Lindsay: Sure, of course. Yeah, it been again, kind of mind blowing, some of the similarities. Especially as we've exchanged pictures and such, and baby pictures especially where some of the children like look like siblings. So, definitely some similarities in facial features, you know, everyone seems to experience some of the slow growth, so a short stature or quite skinny. There's feeding issues also that seem to be quite common. Also, you know, things like the global developmental delays, that's certainly across the board and histories of seizures, that's also quite common. Some people have experienced also some, like, bone density issues, that's not something that we've experienced so far, but that also seems to be quite common. But then also, behaviourally, there's a lot of similarities which has been, I think, quite exciting to a lot of us because you've always thought okay, so this is just my child. And of course, some of that is true but it's also interesting to find out some of these other things that are, you know, are quite similar. So, a lot of people have mentioned their child having, like, an interesting sense of humour. Kind of like a very slapstick sense of humour which is quite interesting. Or everyone seems to love water, everybody loves swimming pools and bathtime, and all of that. Lars loves a windy day. Something about the wind, he just loves it and plane noises and things like that have also come up with other people. So, yeah, it's been really interesting and cool to see. Emma: So, I guess Lindsay's sort of very beautifully summed up what is written in the research publication. So, there's only two research publications so far on this condition, it's all really new. And I am definitely not claim to be a clinical expert on this condition, and I don't think there are any yet. It will take people time to see lots of children and adults who have this particular condition. But ultimately what Lindsay summarised was the common clinical features that have been described by parents. In my job as a clinical genetics doctor, part of what we look at is a person's appearance. So, Lindsay described the photographs of children particularly when they were little, looked very similar. In the photographs that I've seen, I would agree with that. And so obviously those children look like their mum and dad, but they have other features that are in common. They have a characteristic appearance and that helps doctors like me to have an idea as to whether a child or an adult might have a particular condition. Then put together with the sorts of information that Lindsay gave us around the low tone, so being a little bit floppier particularly when they're little. The slow growth and growth problems, problems with eating, also with seizures. Those are all common things that were pulled out of both of the two research publications on this condition and putting that all together into one picture helps doctors to have an idea whether somebody may have a particular condition. That would help us in this case to potentially request that simple test I was talking about, if maybe we were practicing in a part of the world where we wouldn't have the resources that we thankfully do have in the United Kingdom, and in the USA. Naimah: So, Sarah, just coming to you next. How does this research spread awareness and help other patients with these conditions? Sarah: So, I think one of the things that's been really great about research now is that we are able to, you know, social media and things like that mean that we can spread this information really quickly across the world basically. I think what that does is that as well as helping bring people together that they've got this diagnosis, what it does is I think it provides hope for all of those people that Lindsay was talking about at the beginning who don't have a diagnosis. So, that piece around people are still looking, the researchers are working hard and that even if you don't have a diagnosis today you might get one in the future. Lindsay talked about your sample being dusty and not being looked at. I think it gives lots of families, not just those that get this diagnosis but all of those that haven't got a diagnosis, hope, that hopefully in the future they will get a diagnosis. I think one of the things we really hope will come out of diagnoses like this is that we will then be able to build up more of that picture about how families are affected. So, that we can give families more information about not only how their child is affected but how they might be affected in the future. That prognosis information that Linsday said is really missing when you don't have a diagnosis. And I think the other thing that hopefully is the next stage in this journey with this discovery is that those two science publications that Emma talked about, what we will want to do here at Unique working with the researchers and those families that have got a diagnosis, is to produce a patient family friendly information leaflet about this condition. One of the things we know is really important about those patient leaflets is including the photos. Because as both Emma and Lindsay have said that idea that they have facial features in common. And so, if you look at a leaflet and you can recognise your child in it, and you can see others that look like it, that can be a really sort of quite heartwarming experience in what often is a lonely experience with a rare condition. Naimah: And I think kind of on that point about it being a lonely experience, I wondered Lindsay if you could talk a bit more if this research has allowed you to connect with other parents and families who have received a diagnosis, and what impact that's had on your family? Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, and I think everything that Sarah has said was spot on. It's wonderful to have resources like Unique to connect families and have those diagnoses on the platform, so other clinicians can look for it and sort of grow this group. I think that has definitely been the highlight of getting this diagnosis at this stage, right. Because there's not much more you can do with it, with someone so brand new so being able to connect with the other families has been wonderful. One amazing mum who with this diagnosis set up a Facebook group, RNU4-2 Family Connect. And, you know, it's just been amazing to see people from all over the world joining this as they receive this diagnosis, you know, sharing their stories. We've spent countless hours on the weekends over the past couple of months on Zoom calls with total strangers, but just you find that you can just talk for hours and hours because you have so much in common. It's great to see what has worked well for other families and, you know, what has not worked. Sharing resources, just kind of all learning together. Also seeing the spectrum of this diagnosis, I think most genetic disorders have a spectrum and this seems to be the same here. So, that's been very interesting. And of course, our son is 8, Lars is 8. There's now a 33-year-old and a 29-year-old in the Facebook group. Speaking for me personally it's just amazing to see them and like it's very cool to see where they're at. That sort of helps you answer some of those questions about that before were quite unknown when you were thinking about the future. Obviously, everybody's development whether you have a genetic disorder or not, it is going to be what it's going to be, and everybody is going to do their own thing. But being able to see what a path might look like is just so helpful. And, you know, we all want community and connection, and so this has been really, really great to have that now. Sarah: I don't think there's much more that I can add because Lindsay articulated so well. But it's really heartwarming for us to hear the benefits of those connections because that's really why Unique and other support groups exist. Is to provide, partly to provide information, but I think predominantly to put families in touch with other families so that they can find a new home and connect and share experiences. And, you know, stop feeling as alone as they might have done before. Naimah: Okay, we'll wrap up there. Thank you to our guests, Lindsay Pearce, Sarah Wynn and Emma Baple for joining me today as we discussed the research findings which found a genetic change in the RNU4-2 gene which has been linked to neurodevelopmental conditions. If you'd like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin of Ventoux Digital.

Dive into the latest episode of the Class E Podcast with Andrew Predmore, the executive director of Furman University's Shi Institute, as he shares insights into their innovative initiatives. From on-campus climate action planning to a closed-loop food system, the episode delves into sustainability challenges and solutions. Join the conversation as they discuss composting, student engagement, and outward-facing programs, including the Sustainability Leadership Initiative. Andrew sheds light on working with businesses for sustainability and fostering leadership in South Carolina. Discover how Furman is making strides in sustainability, from reducing carbon emissions to unique partnerships. Don't miss the innovative steps they're taking in waste reduction at athletic events, creating a blueprint for sustainable practices. Gain valuable perspectives on sustainability and be inspired by Furman's commitment to a greener future! Guest: Andrew Predmore, Director of the Shi Institute at Furman University Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez '24   Transcript:  Mary: Today, our guest is Andrew Predmore, who is the Executive Director of the Shi Institute for Sustainable Communities here at Furman University. Andrew, welcome to the show. Andrew: Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here and excited to talk about innovation and entrepreneurship. Mary: Absolutely. Because you guys have some innovative programs, which we're going to talk about but you've only been here a year right?  Andrew: Not even a year. Getting close. So I started October 5th or 6th of last year so getting close to a year, yeah. Mary: How are you finding it?  Andrew: Oh, I love it. Mary: Not to put you on the spot.  Andrew: Well yeah I can't exactly answer like, oh, no good at all. But no, I truly am enjoying the position. And you know, I tell people that I really have one of the most fun jobs there is out there because we do a lot of good. And really, you know, my biggest challenge is trying to figure out what in the world to say no to because all the sustainability work that comes our way is good work. And work that's needed in the world. So lots of opportunity and lots of good things to do. Mary: So let's talk about that because you have some innovative programs that you guys are working on. Can you kind of… I don't want to say just list them all but kind of talk about them, list them and then I want to jump in…there's some that I want to dive into  Andrew: Well it would depend on how you define innovative right? But we have a lot of programming. I couldn't possibly list them all for you. Yeah, I would say like just in a broad sense, like the Shi Institute is working on and off campus on sustainability issues and we're looking to make a difference in both places. Andrew: And along the way, we engage students and faculty in that work. So you know, I'll mention just a couple of things going on on-campus and a couple of things off campus and then we can see where that takes us. But on campus our biggest push right now is climate action planning for the university. So Furman University has a carbon neutrality commitment for 2026. It's going to be really difficult to meet that commitment. And so we're really intentionally working on how we are going to pursue that commitment or we need to reset sort of when we're going to be carbon neutral and what is a pragmatic pathway to reduce carbon emissions because we're in here right now and the lights are on and we're using energy right now. And so that's, that's a real challenge for any university in any large organization. So you got to be innovative, you got to think outside the box. And we want to do it also in a way that supports the broader Greenville community. So that's a big thing that we do on campus and anything that we do on campus, we're always engaging students in that so we have a really vibrant student fellowship program. We also have a farm as you know, and that's an important thing on campus for students to get their hands dirty, and see what a closed loop food system looks like. So we'll probably get to that as an innovation but like, you know, we pick up the food waste that comes out of the back of the dining hall, we take it to a compost facility, we compost it, the compost comes back to the garden. The garden grows produce that is then sold to Bon Appetit. So we really have been working on that this summer, and over the next year to scale that up and see how much we can produce and have students learn along the way. So those are two things on campus. Mary: So quick question about that - Is the goal then to produce so much that then we can sell it to local farmers and stuff?  Andrew: No, I mean, not yet. I mean, the goal right now is to produce as much as we can that will then be served in the dining hall. So I'm gonna go to the dining hall in a few minutes when we're done with this, and you're gonna and I'm gonna see like all those heirloom tomatoes that we grow, I mean, hundreds of pounds and tomatoes this summer. We're getting close to $15,000 over the produce that's gone to Bon Appetit over the summer. So that really is healthy local food going to our students, our faculty, our staff right now, in the future, we might do CSA or do some other things where we sell that in other places, but for now, it's just going to the dining hall. Mary: What about the compost? What's the goal for that?  Andrew: The compost as you might imagine it… we've produced quite a bit of organic material, right and like so students out there and everybody listening, you know, be conscious of what you know, sometimes our stomachs are bigger than… what's the saying?  Mary: Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs. Andrew: Yeah, that's right. But then that translates into food waste. So be aware of that, but there's a lot of that and then there's a lot of leaf litter and organic material that comes on campus. So we blend that right? You have to get the carbon to nitrogen correct and compost that so we have quite a bit of it. We're going to start to sell that as a way to raise funds for the Shi Institute.  Mary: Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said for the farmers like local farmers, who are we selling that to? Andrew: Right now… we're not, we haven't even until now this podcast. I'm not even marketing that we're selling. And we've sold you know, several $1,000, but we're looking to scale that up because we have a lot of organic material and a lot of finished compost. The one little bottleneck we have though is filtering the compost. So we can't have plastic and forks and things that sometimes end up… so we have students out there sometimes filtering that so… Mary: I've seen some of the pictures that students have posted about people accidentally throwing away their forks and stuff in the DH.  Andrew: Yeah, the DH has a tough job right? Like anybody that's been there knows things are moving quick. And sometimes, you know, a fork or things just end up in the wrong place. But we'll solve that, we're going to filter it. Mary: So I want to turn now and talk about some of the outward facing programs.  So you have the sustainability leadership initiative.Tell us about that. Andrew: Yeah, so um, you know, think about it this way, like, like, for the world for society for South Carolina to become a more sustainable place. We've got to work for large organizations, right? And so and large organizations have to change just like Furman has to adapt…other organizations, businesses across the state need to adapt and so Furman and the Shi Institute partners with a nonprofit called sustain SC and each year we do a training that lasts five different sessions throughout the year across the state of South Carolina with around 25 business, nonprofit and public sector professionals that sign up to be in that and we're teaching them about the core aspects of sustainability. We take them out into the field and show them some of the challenges. And what we want to do is create a network of sustainability leaders across the state that are going to move us forward. So that's that program. This will be its third year. We have a really great class of people involved with that, real leaders across the state, and it's been fun putting together that program like we're taking them out to Waitis Island, which is a big conservation win. It's an under conservation easement. It's a barrier island off the coast near Myrtle Beach. So we will take them out there and show them like this is an amazing thing. This is amazing that it's protected in perpetuity, but they will also have to grapple with the fact that, like you all might have heard on the news this week that Myrtle Beach is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Right? So there's all that urban development and around that area. And so those students that are in this program, those professionals, we're going to grapple with that like and hopefully that's going to help create better leadership and sustainability. Yeah, Mary: Yeah, because those people are the people who will then go back to their companies and it has to come from the top down, right? So that's a great way to network. I like that. That's very innovative thinking there and I like that because a lot of people in the industrial side of things don't think like that, right? Unnecessarily.  Andrew: Yeah, I mean I think that is changing. You're right and I think that the innovative thing about that is getting leaders embedded in organizations that then construct and flip systems to more sustainable ones.  Mary: Exactly. Getting them to flip the systems. That's exactly what I was talking about. You have one with manufacturers, a program with manufacturers, talk about that one  Andrew: Yeah, so this really was you know…I don't always love the word pilot but how about demonstration project? This summer where we worked with the South Carolina manufacturers extension program, and they know that there's like 7000 or so small to medium sized manufacturers across the state of South Carolina. And a lot of what they do is supply the really big manufacturing businesses in South Carolina. So think of the you know, the big name industries or companies that you all know like BMW or Michelin or Volvo or, or Milliken across the upstate, right? So they have many, many small suppliers. And then those small suppliers are under some pressure now to understand their carbon footprint. You know, because they supply these bigger businesses that have commitments to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So I'm like okay, knowing this I'm like, alright, there's a there's a niche here for the Shi Institute right to step in and roll our sleeves up and see if we can help some of these small to medium sized businesses understand their carbon footprint, and it helps their business because then they can say to their customer, their large customer, hey, we're working on it. It helps us because we got students who need to learn carbon accounting as a skill. So there's a really nice win-win. And so we did a couple of those this summer. They were fantastic. We work with a French company, which is located mostly in Anderson County, and they make advanced textiles. And then we work with a company that's really right down the road here called Mosaic Color and Additives. So we had two students do their greenhouse gas inventories, which is the first step like you cannot reduce your impact on climate without first understanding where your emissions come from, that are driving that impact. And so that's what the students do is, you know, we worked it was very much like a client consulting type experience for our students, which is super valuable for them. Mary: That's the Furman advantage right there. Andrew: It is. We handed the company like a report. Here are your emissions, here's where they come from. And they can start thinking about okay, what can we do to lower emissions? How can we market ourselves as a more sustainable company as a result of taking this first step? So that was a great project and we're looking forward to potentially scaling that up next summer and I think yeah.  Mary: I love the fact that you because when we think of people who need to really work on sustainability, we do think of the large companies right because they probably have the most greenhouse gas emissions, etc. But I love the reaching down to the smaller companies or supplying the bigger companies because that really, I think, will make their partnership stronger.  Andrew: It should and it should create an advantage for those first movers in a small to medium sized manufacturing...because they can say to their larger customers, hey, we're serious about it. We're taking this first step. So we, we, you know, sometimes people think sustainability, shouldn't or can't work with the business sector and I think instead we need to be innovative and think about how we can support the change that needs to happen. And so that's what we've tried to do.  Mary: Because we're part of that community. So why not? Right?  Andrew: We're wearing clothes and we consume things and so we're all a part of this economic system and, and the challenge of sustainability is how are we going to meet human needs within the boundaries of what our ecosystems can provide?  Mary: What kind of obstacles are you facing with some of these things that some of these initiatives that you're started? Andrew: My own ability to keep up with all this. Like I mentioned, sometimes there's more opportunity than then I can capitalize on it. I mean, we're also involved with some really substantial grant work, research work on climate and climate resilience in South Carolina. Luckily, I have staff they're helping with that. We're also involved with athletics and athletics at Furman and starting to think about, you know, how can we make those events… move them towards zero waste or zero landfill events and so we have to really, I don't know if you want to get into that.  Mary: I actually do.  Andrew: I have some, I think some really exciting things that we're just starting this year. So I'm not going to say we're going to finish the thing, but my biggest challenge is keeping up keeping all these things going. And luckily, I have a great group of people that I work with.  Mary: Because if you think about all of the ways from the concession stands, and even when people are tailgating and all that kind of stuff. That is a huge area that could be fixed. Right? So how are you… what kinds of things are you talking about?  Andrew: Yeah, I'm, like I said, we're gonna take incremental steps just because of our own bandwidth. But I think students, we have an eco-rep program, and those are students that work in the residence halls here at Furman to encourage sustainable behavior among their peers. They're going to help us with this athletic thing, because we need some, we need some person power behind this because there's some education but you know, you think about like, just think of yourself at a football game or a basketball game and what's served there, you know, and you start to go through sort of the inventory of what you could consume there, and then you start to understand the challenge, right? So you get a hot dog. What is the hot dog served to you in? Maybe some sort of cardboard type of thing? Well, could that become a compostable? I guess cardboard is compostable. Making sure that everything that the food is served is compostable. And then you got to figure out how to compost and collect it and you got to train people to not put what's compostable into the landfill bin. So one of the cool things we're doing and it is with that company Mosaic Color and Additives…they have a compostable fork, that they're working on and it's sourced from US materials, so it's not made in China. And we're gonna pilot using that in men's basketball games this winter, and we'll collect it and compost at Furman compost.  Mary: So that's the innovation right there. With the company.  Andrew: You know, so we'll start with basketball. Our students are also going to be doing… our Greenbelt students that live in the cabins along the lake are going to do some waste audits. So they're going to help us this year understand the waste stream that I didn't describe perfectly there for each of the athletic events. So that next year, we really understand well, like what needs to happen to move towards nothing is going to landfills, either recyclable or compostable. That'll be… that's the ultimate goal with us. So cool, really cool stuff happening there and just thankful to have athletics just super supportive and excited about it and to have Mosaic Color and Additives also, like here use our product.  Mary: Yeah, I heard their CEO talking about that fork.  Andrew: Yeah, and test it in our compost like they're very open, transparent about working together on that. And that is probably, you know, I'm not in innovation and entrepreneurship, but that's a hallmark of good thinking. Right? Mary: Right. That is innovative thinking.  Andrew: Think about systems, think about being open and transparent and creating partnerships.  Mary: Exactly.  One of the things that I find troubling is that we do have people in this country who don't believe that we need to do these things, right, that, that we don't necessarily need to be sustainable. How do you change the minds of people who aren't taking those actions that all of us can take? Or who don't have that same philosophy? Andrew: Well, I would say a couple of things to that. And you're right, you're right. That's a challenge. If you watch the Republican primary debate the other night, you saw someone say that climate change is a hoax. Well, you know, 99.99% of scientists do not agree with that. Right? It's established fact as much as science can be fact at this point that climate change is real and it's driven by humans. Okay. But to your question, which is like, how do we start to convince people? I think one thing to do is kind of what I mentioned earlier, which is…all people are embedded in an economic system that currently is not terribly sustainable, right? It's based on a take from the earth, make something wasted model, and we have to change that. That is a big systems change. So I don't think the way to do it is to place a lot of guilt on other people, because a lot of times we're embedded in a system where it can be very challenging to live sustainably. That's not to say you shouldn't do what you can do. I really think you shouldn't but don't put all the blame on individuals. Instead, you know, let's look at systems change. Let's look like I talked about let's look at training leaders to work in organizations that can flip larger systems so that it's easier for you and I to go to a football game which I think is a you know, I like sports, but I don't want to create a bunch of waste when I'm there. So create a system when I get there, so I'm not generating so much waste. Right. So there's systems work to do. The other thing I would say is, you know, you got to start talking to people about these issues in ways that matter to them. Yes, absolutely. So like, you know, we talked about climate change, you know, if you're a sports fan, I don't want to go to a football game at 12 o'clock in South Carolina, in September. And I think that is going to be a more and more difficult, unpleasant experience if you look at the climate models. So that's something that a lot of people care about. It's part of our culture in the South is to go to college football games. We need to do something. Youth sports are a big thing. Like is it safe to practice in some of the heat and humidity that we're going to encounter? So talk to people about things that matter to them as a starting point, instead of hitting them over the head with you got to change your… and guilt and all that and I think people will start to see that. So… Mary: That's audience, right? You got to know your audience, right? I tell my students that all the time. Whatever story you're telling. Start with the audience. You got to know how to tell it based on who your audience is. Right? Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I'm no communications scholar, but I've been in sustainability long enough to know that trick.  Mary: Yeah. So I was looking at some of your history Andrew and I'm going way back a little bit. In undergrad, you were a politics major.  Andrew: Yeah. Mary: Trying to pull that out of my memory correctly. How has that helped you in what you do now? I mean, obviously, your PhD and your masters and everything is on sustainability. But… Andrew: That's an interesting question that you know, I think probably some of the answer that I just gave, you know, politics is about speaking to audiences and convincing audiences so I don't know that without you asking me that question I've attributed the ability to answer that question to that experience, but maybe I think my undergrad at UVA was really more about like, critical thinking and, you know, a liberal arts education. I was a person that did not know what I wanted to do.I knew I was interested in political science and things like that, but I was also interested in the environment at that time, but I hadn't figured out environment… Sustainability wasn't really a thing. I hadn't figured out what my avenue would be there. And I think I know at Furman, we're better at that now, helping young people see the array of professions out there, but for me, it had to be like a winding path.  Mary: Yeah, I was the same way. Was there something that you came across or some event or something that kind of spurred you into saying, okay, this is the direction I want to go in, and I want to get my higher education, get my Master's in that and and go on to be where you are today?  Andrew: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't read something, although there are certain things that I read that were impactful. I think if you haven't read Aldo Leopold, a Sand County Almanac, you should read that it's both beautiful and was really forward thinking and still applies today. But it didn't really come from reading or studying. It came from like when I was a kid growing up in Spartanburg, South Carolina. My dad would take my brother and I up into Pisgah National Forest, and we would go backpacking. He took us out west, we went out to Yosemite, we went to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. When I was 10 years old, I was backpacking in the Tetons. Mary: That's amazing. I love the Tetons.  Andrew: So you start with like that just and I found interviewing students over the years both at Indiana University where I was before and at Furman, you ask him like, where's your passion for sustainability come from? Usually there's some sort of connection with nature. And for me, that's what it was. And then ever since then, I've been trying to figure out how to make an impact. How do we create a safe space for humanity to thrive without messing up what we got.  Mary: So what has been the most rewarding thing in your career path that you've… because you were in sustainability at Indiana and now of course at Furman. Andrew: That's a good one. You know, I can talk about like, different sort of things that were accomplished either at Indiana University or even at Milliken. I was there for a year. They were one of the first 50 companies to have science based targets for reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, prove targets… and that was really cool because not to say I did that but I was a part of that. That was awesome. We did some cool things at IU around waste and recycling like that system was really not functioning well. And we set that on a path to do much, much better. And that was a big, you know, that's a big campus. So we're proud of some of those accomplishments, but I mean, it may sound a little bit cheesy but truly like when a student that worked with me like as a kind of like here we have student fellows, at IU we had sustainability interns, when they come back and I can see on LinkedIn that they're working on these things or they asked for a recommendation and I'm blown away by like, what job they're about to get. Man that's awesome. And to know I have a little bit of piece of that, particularly ones that I worked really, really closely with, that's really super rewarding. So it's a mixed bag, you know, lots of things. Mary: I totally get that because I feel that way with my students. You know when I see them succeed. So I like to kind of leave our listeners with a blueprint that they can take into their lives no matter what the conversation is about. There's always some advice or just some nuggets of information that they can use. What would you give to our listeners as something that they could take and do right now today? If they so chose to help in sustainability. Andrew: Oh, gosh, I cannot give you just one. I think we kind of covered you know it a little bit but if you're passionate about… I have students, students more at IU and increasingly I think will happen at Furman will come ask me that kind of question like What should I do? I care… what should I do? And there's all those like, personal things that you can do, right? And for college students that can be hard because you're not in control of your living space necessarily. So like you and I, we might ought to look at the energy consumption in our household and there's the inflation Reduction Act, right? So there's a lot of incentives out there for solar or battery and I'm looking at that in my house right now. So those are things but college students, you don't really have a lot of control over where you live, so do what you can. But I think the other thing is think about this as a system. If you want to make a difference, some of the things that you need to do are learn to talk to people about these issues and be willing to do it. And we talked about some tips there like approach the audience with what they might care about. But also don't be afraid to be politically engaged. Because that's probably the highest level systems change that you, that students and any of us can get involved with. So if you have a voice on this, use it.  Mary: That's a good point. I didn't even think about that. Andrew: It's not all technical stuff. It's about driving social and collective collective action. Mary: I want to circle back around to Furman again. What are we doing well, and what do we need to do better? Andrew: What are you talking… on campus or… Mary: As you know, our goal and our sustainability plan is to reduce our carbon footprint. How are we doing basically?  Andrew: Well, so you know, I mentioned one thing that we do exceptionally well, which is that closed loop circular system with food and food waste, and that's fantastic. And we'll be looking to scale out those issues. So as I've talked about compost and athletics and catering and so those are things we do well and we're going to do even better. We have nice greenhouse gas reductions relative to our 2008, 2007, 2008 baseline. Our greenhouse gas emissions have dropped like 37, 38%... Mary: Which is great.  Andrew: … which is very good. We have geothermal on different parts of campus. We have a good size solar installation across Poinsett Highway, so Furman has done a lot of things and so the facilities folks, Jeff Redderson and his team deserve a ton of credit for that.  Mary: We have five buildings that are LEED certified… Am I right in that number?  Andrew: I don't know.  Mary: Okay, well I'll look it up and if you want to know, just email me.  Andrew: Well, I know we had the first LEED building in the state of South Carolina.  Mary: Yeah, Isabella did a story on it. Yeah our podcast producer did a story on it.  Andrew: But what can we do better? Right. I talked about the climate action planning like we need to get to a point where we're looking at our greenhouse gas emissions year over year. And we're transparent about that. And we have a strategy to reduce those emissions year over year. So that's where we're headed. It's as I mentioned to you, it's it's it's challenging. We're not going to make those changes without careful planning, which has already started. So if you think about every one of or maybe not every one, but most of our buildings, this one included, has a natural gas boiler that heats the building. Well, their emissions are associated with natural gas consumption, so we need to move away from that but you can't just snap your fingers because Furman has money in that infrastructure, or that wouldn't make financial sense. So instead, you got to look at well, what's the lifecycle of the natural gas boilers at each building and which ones are coming to the end of there? And then what are we going to do then? We're going to electrify that building, the heating, and what's that going to cost? And so that's the kind of really the hard work that's ahead. And I don't know, I'm just really excited that facilities and other parts of administration are up for that work and yeah, and we're gonna, we're gonna do it. Mary: Andrew, anything else you want to tell our listeners about what the Shi Institute's doing and has in the pipeline?  Andrew: Well, I would say like this, this podcast is about innovation. And I want to thank former President David Shi who just committed a million dollar gift to us and that kind of support you know, whether it's $5, or a million dollars helps us do the things that matter most. So looking at issues around biodiversity loss and climate change and climate resilience. Instead of having to chase grants or other ways to support our work, we're able to… with that kind of support, we're able to do the things that matter most and so that would be a thing that were like, first, thank you and for other folks out there that want to support a group doing great work in the upstate in South Carolina, come talk to us. Mary: Absolutely. Andrew, thank you so much.  Andrew: Thanks, Mary.   Mary: I appreciate it.   Mary: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez.  But until next time, I'm your host Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.  

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was the response of obfuscation by those deemed to be the intelligentsia of academia, history, and politics that caused great consternation. They were the ones who witnessed and studied the atrocities of the Nazis, but their response to the recent horrid events in Israel and antisemitism on college campuses...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was the response of obfuscation by those deemed to be the intelligentsia of academia, history, and politics that caused great consternation. They were the ones who witnessed and studied the atrocities of the Nazis, but their response to the recent horrid events in Israel and antisemitism on college campuses...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is hard to believe that 22 years ago, America was attacked by evil from within. Although this evil came from another country, it was able to use our laws and immigration system to enter and launch its evil plan. On that fateful day, 2,977 innocent souls died as a result of 19 hijackers who were members of the Islamist jihadist organization al-Qaeda. Although they were foreigners who entered...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is hard to believe that 22 years ago, America was attacked by evil from within. Although this evil came from another country, it was able to use our laws and immigration system to enter and launch its evil plan. On that fateful day, 2,977 innocent souls died as a result of 19 hijackers who were members of the Islamist jihadist organization al-Qaeda. Although they were foreigners who entered...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is a known fact in the business community that most, if not all, business deals are made over dinner. So it is very important who you choose to have dinner with and bring to dinner when closing a business deal. And who would know this better than the first son, Hunter Biden, and his somewhat silent partner dad, Joe Biden? Contrary to what the liberal media and the Biden White House...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is a known fact in the business community that most, if not all, business deals are made over dinner. So it is very important who you choose to have dinner with and bring to dinner when closing a business deal. And who would know this better than the first son, Hunter Biden, and his somewhat silent partner dad, Joe Biden? Contrary to what the liberal media and the Biden White House...

Devin: What do you see as your superpower?Andrew: It's a little bit of a shoot first, ask questions later kind of thing.“There are all these communities around the US that feel like they don't have economic development options, feel like there's resource scarcity, are lacking these things, or losing these stores both in urban areas and rural areas,” says Andrew Connor, founder and director of The Center for Community Ownership.His observation about the need motivated Andrew to take action in support of local investing, including crowdfunding. “I started the Center for Community Ownership because a lot of communities don't know that this is an option. They lose a grocery store, and they don't know that they have any option other than to go try to find some chain store to come to town or wait for the dollar store to come to town or something like that.”“Part of what we do is try to spread awareness and do education about the fact that community ownership is a viable option,” he says.AI Summary* Andrew Connor founded the Center for Community Ownership to support local investment and entrepreneurism.* The center educates communities about community ownership models and provides technical support.* Andrew also founded the Local Investing Action network (LIA) to support local businesses raising capital.* Andrew founded Crowdfund Montana, a platform for investment crowdfunding in Montana.* Andrew highlights the challenges rural communities face in raising capital.* Crowdfund Montana has helped companies like Pink Bench Distilling achieve success in rural Montana.* Andrew founded CCO and LIA.* He stresses the importance of taking action to make tangible change in community development.* Andrew emphasizes the importance of creating a network of like-minded individuals to achieve shared goals.* Listeners are encouraged to visit the CCO and LIAN websites for more information.How to Develop A Bias to Act As a SuperpowerThroughout his career, Andrew has developed a bias to act as a superpower. Recognizing that a “shoot first, ask questions later,” attitude can be a weakness as well as a strength, he highlights some of his accomplishments as evidence of the benefits.Andrew recently launched the Local Investing Action network, LIA, to help community leaders around the country form local investing groups. Andrew is excited about the progress of the LIA network. The group is focused on community investment and has already made connections and laid the foundation for concrete projects. Although the group is set to last for a year, Andrew feels that it may continue beyond that. The projects that the group is working on include community investment funds, local investment groups, education and cultural change resources, and specific community investment projects. Andrew feels that even if only a fraction of these projects are successful, it will be a worthwhile venture. He believes that the success of the LIA group came from a willingness to try something new and the power of collaboration.Andrew, who acts largely as a coach in the LIA network, offers a tip for developing your bias to act.“We fail to appreciate the costs we incur by not taking action,” he says. It is easier sometimes to imagine the costs of acting, but harder to see the costs of the status quo. “Sometimes you can measure those [costs] in really specific ways in terms of opportunity costs or money lost or things that didn't happen,” he says. You can add those up. More importantly, the emotional toll of being in that plateaued or stagnated place sometimes could be greater than sort of ripping the band-aid off—trying it and failing.”You can increase your bias to act by following Andrew's advice and example, potentially making it a superpower that enables you to do more good in the world.Mona DeFrawi, CEO and founder of Radivision, a streaming channel for investors and entrepreneurs, especially those engaging in crowdfunding, has launched a newsletter. We're sharing the first issue with you below and invite you to consider subscribing. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at devinthorpe.substack.com/subscribe

Key Takeaways • Having an injury does not automatically translate to stopping all training • Many exercises can be modified to be safely performed in a way that does not worsen an injury • Don't forget to exercise the uninjured parts of your body such as the opposite leg or arm   “It doesn't matter if you're an athlete or you're just a normal person competing in the game that we all call life, there's things that you can continue to do to prepare your body for what lies ahead,” explains host Dr. Andrew Fix. Dr. Andrew's experience with his Achilles repair procedure has taught him firsthand how to modify exercises in order to keep training while healing. Today, he discusses how to adapt and overcome an injury, including how to modify your training regimen.   Whether you are an athlete or just a regular person looking to maintain your health, your training needs to be adjusted anytime you have an injury. If you hurt your leg and then are told to not exercise your lower body at all, you will likely suffer muscle atrophy. Instead of completely putting a halt to your training, don't forget about the rest of your body. You may not be able to do the same exercises that you could do before right away and ones you can do will likely need to be modified, but it is better than doing nothing. Continuing to train even before being cleared for a return to full activity is good for your body's overall strength and resilience. The longer break you take, the more difficult it will be to return to your old training or sport when you are cleared.    Learning how to adapt and overcome an injury is a vital part of caring for the body that you have been gifted with. An injury is not an automatic reason to take an all out break from training. Instead, it is an opportunity to approach training in a new way and to focus on strengthening other parts of your body. Physical therapy can teach you ways to keep your body strong while healing your injury, so that when you are cleared you can get right back to doing the things you love.      Quotes • “You can see a very noticeable difference in what we call atrophy, or loss of muscle due to not using it, in the size of his one leg compared to the other in areas like his quadriceps, his hamstrings, his calf, not just the ankle.” (7:52-8:05 | Dr. Andrew) • “I would suggest you continue to train as much as you can with the rest of your body, including your other limb, whether that's your arm, whether that's your leg, don't forget about it.” (16:27-16:38 | Dr. Andrew) • “When you get injured that does not mean that your training stops or takes a break because life doesn't take a break for us.” (18:10-18:16 | Dr. Andrew)  • “It doesn't matter if you're an athlete or you're just a normal person competing in the game that we all call life, there's things that you can continue to do to prepare your body for what lies ahead.” (18:46-18:57 | Dr. Andrew)   Links Connect with Physio Room:  Website | ​​https://physioroomco.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/physioroomco/ Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/physioroomco Andrew's Personal Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/dr.andrewfix/  Andrew's Personal Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/andrew.fix.9/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Key Takeaways • NEAT refers to all of the activities that happen in our day and the energy expended in doing so • Knowing your BMR, basal metabolic rate, is important for weight loss or weight gain • Small movements can make a big impact on both physical and mental health   “This is a super simple way to cheat activity into your day. And by cheating activity into your day, you can increase the amount of calories that you burn, the amount of activity that you get, and more than likely, make your body feel better,” explains host Dr. Andrew Fix. Today, Andrew talks about NEAT, non-exercise activity thermogenesis, and how it impacts weight loss, physical fitness, and overall wellness.   NEAT is the energy expended to do all of your daily activities. It includes things like walking to your car, preparing food, going to the bathroom, and even tapping your feet at your desk. It is an easy way to cheat more activity into your day without having to set aside time specifically for exercise. Andrew shares that much of the reason why many people in America gained weight during the pandemic is because of a reduction in NEAT. Even though people tried to keep up with their usual exercise routine when they could, they were likely not doing as many of the incidental activities like walking to the office from the parking lot.    Small movements may not seem like much, but they really do make a large difference in your overall activity level. By adding more small movements to your day, you can get the benefits of being more active without having to add more formal exercise. Even just parking farther away from your destination and walking a bit will help to increase your activity level, burn more calories, and just make your body feel better overall.    Quotes • “That's a particularly important number to know, your total daily energy expenditure, for somebody who is interested in gaining weight or losing weight.” (3:49-3:57 | Andrew) • “This is a super simple way to cheat activity into your day. And by cheating activity into your day, you can increase the amount of calories that you burn, the amount of activity that you get, and more than likely, make your body feel better.” (5:00-5:16 | Andrew)  • “It was a year or a year and a half into the Coronavirus pandemic that the average weight gain in America was 29 pounds. And I think a lot of that has to do with lack of activity.” (6:23-6:34 | Andrew) • “Even if people were trying to maintain their exercise and doing exercise around their home, their apartment, their driveway, whatever that looks like, we weren't getting the same activity throughout the rest of our day that we're accustomed to.” (6:40-6:55 | Andrew)   Links https://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-out   https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12468415/#:~:text=Non%2Dexercise%20activity%20thermogenesis%20(NEAT)%20is%20the%20energy%20expended,undertaking%20agricultural%20tasks%20and%20fidgeting Connect with Physio Room:  Website | ​​https://physioroomco.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/physioroomco/ Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/physioroomco Andrew's Personal Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/dr.andrewfix/  Andrew's Personal Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/andrew.fix.9/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It really shouldn't be surprising that the media is name-dropping Michelle as a viable presidential candidate. Regardless of her lack of experience and knowledge, she fits their identity politics mold. She is a black female and a liberal. What she lacks in substance, the media will give her cover, as they...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was the kiss seen around the world on national TV during the State Of The Union Address. Nearly 27.3 million people witnessed the primetime lip lock of First Lady Jill Biden and Second Gentlemen, Douglas Emohoff. More than likely, many had to do a double take or rewind their TV's just to make...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is straightforward criminal behavior. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots. Yet, here we are, waiting for a partisan DOJ run by Merrick Garland and a corrupt FBI, with Christopher Wray at the top, to act according to the law. The question is, whose law?

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was her support for the former president that seemingly caused her murder and the public destruction of her name by the media and radical Democrats. Following her murder, not one Democrat thought to hold a moment of silence for this military veteran. Whenever the media mentioned her, they labeled her a radical...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was her support for the former president that seemingly caused her murder and the public destruction of her name by the media and radical Democrats. Following her murder, not one Democrat thought to hold a moment of silence for this military veteran. Whenever the media mentioned her, they labeled her a radical...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is our rich history that many on the left want us to forget, and it is by design. They want to erase our history by not teaching it in our schools. When it is taught, it is done in such a way that America is made to be the bad guy. If we are to preserve our great nation, we must not forget the struggles it took to make us the...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It is our rich history that many on the left want us to forget, and it is by design. They want to erase our history by not teaching it in our schools. When it is taught, it is done in such a way that America is made to be the bad guy. If we are to preserve our great nation, we must not forget the struggles it took to make us the...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It should come as no surprise that the FBI and DNC colluded with Big Tech to silence free speech. What should come as a surprise is the level the media took to cover it all up. While both the FBI, DNC, and media are quiet over their collusion, the Twitter files being released by Elon Musk say it all...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It should come as no surprise that the FBI and DNC colluded with Big Tech to silence free speech. What should come as a surprise is the level the media took to cover it all up. While both the FBI, DNC, and media are quiet over their collusion, the Twitter files being released by Elon Musk say it all...

What you'll learn in this episode: Why a growth mindset is the key to making effective change Andrew's tips for beating resistance and making changes stick Why lawyers need to adapt their professional approach to become effective coaches and mentors  How to choose the right executive coach What lawyers of all levels can expect to gain from coaching About Andrew Elowitt: Andrew Elowitt JD MBA PCC worked for over twenty years both in law firms and as the head of a corporate legal department before becoming a practice management consultant and professional certified coach. He is the Managing Director of New Actions LLC, a firm that specializes in talent, strategy and leadership development for law firms, businesses, and government agencies. His work focuses on the people side of legal practice: how lawyers manage, lead, thrive, change, and find satisfaction. He is regarded as an expert on the use of coaching and emotional, social and conversational intelligences in leading and managing legal organizations of all sizes. Andrew is a Fellow in the College of Law Practice Management, an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach, Vice Chair of the ABA Law Practice Division Publications Board, and founding member of its Lawyer Leadership and Management Board. He is the author of numerous articles and is regularly invited to conduct workshops and retreats for his clients and to present programs to bar associations. Additional Resources:  New Actions: www.newactions.com  Elowitt's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/andrewelowitt  Transcript: Coaching is a powerful tool that can help lawyers in all stages of their careers become more effective leaders, mentors, and professionals. The legal industry has embraced coaching over the last 10 years, thanks in no small part to the work of Andrew Elowitt, founder of coaching firm New Actions and author of books “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness” and “Lawyers as Managers: How to Be a Champion for Your Firm and Employees.” He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how lawyers can face and overcome their resistance to change; why a growth mindset is necessary for lasting transformation; and how lawyers should choose the right coach. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Andrew Elowitt. Andrew is the managing director and founder of New Actions LLC. His firm provides high-level coaching, practice management consulting and retreat facilitation services to law firms and other professional service firms. He is a former lawyer and corporate executive. He's also an in-demand speaker. He is a very accomplished author who has been on the podcast before with one of this coauthors, Marcia Wasserman. We'll hear all about his journey today. Andrew, welcome to the program. Andrew: It's great to be back, Sharon. Sharon: It's great to have you. Thank you so much. Tell us about your journey. How did you get to where you are now? Andrew: I had been practicing law for 15 years, first in firms and then I went in-house. It wasn't something that hit me suddenly at 15 years. I realized I was a good lawyer and I was well-compensated, but my passion for the law, for legal practice, was ebbing. I wanted to do something more. I wasn't sure what it would be, but I definitely wanted to have a second act.  So, I got to that point 15 years in, like I said, and it was a matter of some awfully good luck. My best friend's weekend hiking buddy was a senior organizational development consultant who was putting on learning opportunities for an eclectic mix of people. I had known him socially, and I was introduced to him. I talked about what he was doing with the learning groups. He had a clinical psychologist, a college professor, an educational consultant, and a woman who did film editing and writing, so a lawyer in the mix made it all the more eclectic. Once I started that learning group, I was fascinated. It was like all the lights going on on the Christmas tree in Rockefeller Center. I went, “This is so interesting. I want to do this.” Then I started to train, and I probably read more in those first two or three years that I was training with my mentor than I had practicing law in the prior 10 years.  Then I made the transition into doing organizational development consulting. We were working with a lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley. Over time, slowly, I started to pick up more professional services firm clients, lawyers, accountants. A lot of my friends from the legal world were now in managerial positions. We'd get together and they'd say, “Andrew, we're having this problem,” and I'd give them advice. After about six months, they said, “You know what? We'll pay to have you go into the firms and help us with these things.” I went, “Oh my gosh, there's a niche here.” So, I started working with lawyers then.  At that time, which was the early 2000s, coaching in the legal world was not well understood. People thought I was a life coach. They had all kinds of misgivings, and I had to overcome that initially in making the transition. At this point, coaching is very well known and respected and utilized, not fully utilized, but utilized in the legal profession. Sharon: Do you think that's more in California? When I talk to people in other areas of the country, they don't really know what coaching is. They're going, “Coaching, what's that?”  Andrew: Yeah, occasionally I get that. I don't think there's a big geographic difference anymore. Maybe on the coasts there's more understanding of coaching. The legal community has followed the business community. The business community was a much earlier adapter and user of coaching. You certainly saw that in the tech companies. One of the reasons why was because you had a lot of younger, relatively inexperienced managers coming in, and they needed help. Brilliant people, great subject matter experts, but they didn't know how to manage, especially managing people. That's one of the reasons why there was a lot of traction for coaching in tech centers, both on the west coast and the east coast.  Law has followed that, and I think it's a matter of what the business models are for businesses versus professional services firms. As you know, partners or senior attorneys have their producer/manager dilemma. They're the ones that are on the factory floor grinding out the equipment or the product. At the same time, they need to manage, but do they have the time? There's a built-in tension there. Do I step away from billable hours to do the work? Do I step away from client development to do the managerial piece? It's a built-in dilemma. You don't see that on the business side. On the business side, with the executives I work with, which is anywhere from 40% to 60% of my practice, they are managers. Their job is to manage the people that report to them and to collaborate with the people in their organizations. It's different than in law firms. Sharon: Law firms are their own animal. One of the ways is exactly what you're talking about. You have tension. What do you tell people who come and say, “I love the business side and I like client development, but I don't like the law. I don't like to write briefs. I don't like to read them. What can I do?” Andrew: First of all, that resonates with me because that was my feeling about the law. I know I was a good technician, but I much rather would have been negotiating. I think that's one of the reasons why I was happy going in-house. I got to be the client, and I was more involved in the business affairs of my organization.  For those people, I think it's great that they have wider interests. The people who like client development, they're the future rainmakers in a firm. The people who like doing the managerial piece are really important. Now, there's a problem because they may be very good at it, but firms are still slow in rewarding and incentivizing people to take on those managerial roles.  One thing we've seen in big law, the largest law firms in North America and around the world, is the emergence of professional managers. People that may or may not be lawyers are now doing the administration and the leading of firms. There can be challenges to that. In a lot of jurisdictions, you can't have nonlawyers, people that are not certified as lawyers, being equity holders in a law firm. That makes the compensation and incentivizing issue a lot more complicated, but I think we'll see more of a continuation in that direction. It's great to have people in firms that are interested, passionate, experienced and competent in management. It makes a big difference in the bottom line. Sharon: I had forgotten how it's become so professionalized on the business side in many ways. I can't remember; it'll come to me later. I was trying to remember when I was at Arthur Andersen. There was such a big dichotomy between fee earners, non-revenue generators and revenue generators. I always felt like, “What are you talking about? We bring in this much.”  Anyway, you said you were doing training in organizational development or coaching. Andrew: It started out with organizational development. That was the focus of our learning group. It was great for me. I was with people more senior than I in terms of work experience, not necessarily in terms of age. We started with a couple of learning groups in Los Angeles. Then my mentor, Don Rossmoore, got invited to Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC, to lead learning groups there, so we had other professionals and executive coaches that were in-house for Xerox. We had people from Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Sun. It was the whole list of tech companies. This is back in the 1990s. It fast-tracked me to have all those people available to learn from.  Our last learning groups morphed into a consulting group that was a bit informal. Very different from law firms, where everything is very structured. This was, “Do you have the availability? O.K., we'll work together on this engagement.” I learned a tremendous amount there. We were usually dealing with larger issues throughout an organization.  What I found in doing that was I loved the strategic part, the systems part of that, but it really comes down to implementation. When it comes down to implementing the changes we're recommending, that goes back to the individual. Often the individual executives and managers were having difficulty implementing the changes they knew they needed to make, including changes in the organization, changes in the team they were leading, or changes in themselves. It's the individual. That's where I really began the transition into coaching. I didn't think I was very good at it initially. I still feel that way. I had to unlearn a lot of qualities and approaches that made me a good lawyer, but not necessarily a good coach. For example, as a lawyer, you need to be prescriptive and directed. You're there to provide a solution. A client comes to you with a problem, then, “O.K., well, this is what you should do.” That doesn't necessarily work well when you're coaching. It's better to work more collaboratively with your coach-ee to help them come to their ideas and figure out what they need to do. I had to stop myself. I had to restrain myself from jumping to solutions and saying “Here's the roadmap. Here are steps one through five. Do them.” That was me at the beginning. I had to sit on my hands and zip my mouth and go, “I have some ideas about this, but I'd like to hear from you first. What do you think would be a good approach?” It's bringing them more into the picture.  That was one of the biggest and hardest changes for me, but I found I really liked working with executives. There's something about working with people one-on-one I found very satisfying, far more satisfying than working with people one-on-one in the legal capacity. I went in that direction with executives and lawyers and a few other service professionals from time to time, but I wouldn't identify myself in those positions. That's pretty much the journey that I took. Sharon: Do you find that you have to put on a different hat when you're working with a lawyer, and then another hat when you're working with an executive? Andrew: That's a great question. It depends on the lawyer and the executive. Sometimes I have to put on a different hat with the same person from one session to the next depending on where they're at. With lawyers, Sharon, it's usually a matter of the issues we're dealing with. On the executive side, it's pretty much pure management and leadership skills. Lately with the pandemic, resilience and finding a healthy work/life integration are huge, huge issues. For the last two or three years, that has been a theme in almost all of the coaching I've done.  On the legal side, it's different. It's not pure management and leadership. At the younger levels of an attorney's career, we're more often focused on issues of productivity, time management, work-flow management. They are on the receiving end of delegation and feedback, so a lot of it is helping them learn how to receive delegation and feedback and how to help them make the people giving them the feedback and delegation even better.  It's a sweeping generalization, but I think it's true that lawyers don't have a lot of formal training in managerial skills. Some who came to the law after working in another area may have that. Some who took management classes in college or grad school, they may have some familiarity. But basically, when it comes to people management, lawyers don't know a lot. They are replicating the ways they were managed, which means they may be using managerial and leadership approaches that are two generations old, which are not great with millennials and Gen Z.  So, a lot of is helping people learn how to manage.  Now, I said I started with people at the lower level. As you get higher, then it is learning those managerial skills, delegating, giving feedback. How do you hold the people that work with you accountable? How do you collaborate with other people? As you go further up, it becomes more client-facing, so it's about developing those client relationships. Then we get into business development. I'm not a business development specialist, but I'm very good at helping attorneys that have support for client development within their firm and may even have dedicated client development people.  They know what they should be doing, but they're not doing it. It's the classical example of the knowing-doing gap. This is something that's not unique to lawyers. There's something we know we should do, but do we get around to doing it? No. That can be the case with a lot of lawyers when it comes to business development. I'm very good at helping them understand what's holding them back. Typically, it's nothing external; it's nothing in the firm or the environment. It's something in them. We acknowledge what the inner obstacle is and we work past it and through it. I have a good record of getting them into gear and getting them developing clients.  Finally, when we get to partner-level, practice area heads and executive committee members, then it's a lot about leadership and management. That's where there's the most similarity to the business side or the executive side of my practice. Sharon: Do you work with people at all different levels, depending on where they are when they contact you or the firm brings you in? How does it work? Andrew: For firms, it's virtually all levels. Large firms will bring me in. I'll work with their professional development or talent development people. Most often, they have a high-potential associate and there may be a couple of things that they're struggling with. As I think most of your listeners will know, it's expensive to find new people and onboard and train them. You don't want to lose that human capital. So, coaching can be very helpful and cost-effective in helping those people overcome the problems they may be having.  It may be something like time management. You have an associate who's starting to trend late on their deliverables. It's the work they need to get to partners. It's overly simple to say, “Oh, they need to work harder and faster,” or something like that. It may be an issue—it often is—where they're not doing a good job of pushing back against the people giving them work. There are lot of people all over the world and there are a lot of associates. They're hesitant to say no to a partner when a partner hands them a piece of work. What they end up doing is overloading themselves because they are overly optimistic about what they can achieve in a given amount of time. So, helping them learn how to push back is a way of dealing the time management issue. Sharon: I can see how it would be very hard to say, “I don't have time,” or “No,” to a partner. That must be very, very hard. Andrew: There's a skill and art to it, a lot of finesse. With some partners even more finesse. Sharon: Is there resistance? It seems like there would be. Maybe I have an old image of it, but it seems like there would be people who say, “I don't need coaching,” or “I've failed if I have coaching. Andrew: Happily, there's less and less of that. That sense of failure, I don't run into that much anymore. Usually with younger associates, they may feel like, “I should know this. This is a flaw in me. I'm not doing a good job of this.” Often, they're their most severe critics, so I make it very clear to people I coach that I'm not there to fix them. Seldom am I dealing with somebody who really has a risk of being fired from a firm. It's usually developmental. Usually, they're worth investing in, and the firm is spending money to help them become more productive and a tighter part of the firm.  The one thing you did mention is that some people think, “I don't need coaching.” I'll initially talk to a prospective coach-ee—and this works on the executive side or the legal side. I qualify them, which sounds like turning them into objects, but it's coach-speak for talking to them to see if they're coachable. Not all people are. Most are very earnestly interested. They want the help. They're stuck. They don't know what to do, but they know they need to do something. Occasionally, you'll find somebody who points the finger at everybody else. They say, “I'm not the problem. It's their problem, if you could just help them.” That's not going to be a good coach-ee.  The other thing you look for is a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. People with a fixed mindset think, “This is all the intelligence I have, all the social skills I have. What you see is what you get. I'm not going to change. There's not a lot of room, if any room, for improvement.” Why spend time, energy, money on dealing with a person or trying to help a person who is saying, “This is where I am and I'm O.K. to be there”? There's no upside potential. You want people with a growth mindset who are curious, who are saying, “I want to learn how to do this.” It's a challenge. You want people who can say, “I've really messed up doing this. I can tell you about the last three failures I've had.” That level of self-awareness and candor makes for a great coach-ee. Sharon: I'm thinking there are some similarities. Sometimes a partner will say, “I know how to do it. I did it this way. They can learn how to do it this way.” Can that change? They may be resistant, or maybe they're not coachable. What do you think about that? Andrew: There's often a degree of resistance in making changes. There's a reason why we are the way are at a given moment. Often, it's because something has worked well for us in the past, and that's fine. It makes sense to me. It got you to where you are. Why change it? You don't want to take that risk. But that mindset ignores the fact that our world is changing really quickly.  Let's use the example of working virtually. There were people that said, “No, I only want to have face-to-face meetings.” This goes for coaches and their coaching sessions as well as clients and people in their firm. But the world changed, and all of a sudden, we got a lot better working virtually.  Sometimes you do run into people who are resistant. If you're coaching them, you can start to work with them on resistance. You can say, “I can see why this would work for you. I can see the track record. I'm curious. What do you imagine might happen if you tried doing this differently?” I will lay out a scenario of what different would look like. When you start to engage them in that conversation, that's where you listen and hear what their fears are, what their expectations are, why their fears may be justified. Often, they're not. They're thinking something horrible will happen, and you can say, “There is that risk, but here's the opportunity. What do you think?” So, you can subtly, gently shift them.  Sharon: It sounds like you have opened up people who were closed when you walked in. Andrew: Yes, all the time. Sharon: I know you went to the Institute of Management Coaching. Andrew: No, my training didn't include IMC. In terms of management training, I did get my MBA from Marshall School of Business at USC. The learning group supplemented a lot of that. A lot of it was self-study, but I also took workshops and got certified in Essential Facilitation. That was something I found extraordinarily helpful and is a big part of the work I do. There was also action science, which is, again, organizational development oriented. It helped me to understand the dynamics of organizations.  The other thing in terms of training was my coaching training. One thing about coaching that is very different from lawyering is how you become a lawyer. Typically, you're doing your undergraduate work; you're going to law school; you have to take the bar exam. There are a lot of steps, a lot of certifications, that help with quality control. On the complete other side of the picture, we have coaching. You want to be a coach? Go to your stationery store or big office supply place, get cards printed up that say “coach,” and you're a coach. There's very little in the way of, at least, governmental oversight. The last I checked, which was a few years ago, I think the only state that said anything about coaching in their laws was Colorado. It said that coaching is not considered a mental health profession, so it was excluding coaching. Nothing about what you have to do to be a coach.  So, it's incumbent upon coaches to get training. There are a few organizations that sanction training and offer certification. I'm an International Coach Federation Professional Certified Coach. Boy, is that a mouthful! ICF is probably the leading and most well-known organization for certifying coaches. It's not the only one anymore, but it is an effort to raise the standards of the profession and to make sure that people who are using coaches get somebody who knows what they're doing. Sharon: Did you have to take some training and go through at least one class? Or could you just send in your money? Andrew: That's a great question. There are some organizations where basically you're paying to be on an online list of certified coaches in the area. That exists. I shake my head in dismay about that. As far as I see it, you have to go through an approved training program. Mine was Newfield Network. It was a nine-month program. I think we met three times for three or four days in person. There was a lot of virtual work, albeit this was so long ago that it was by telephone in between. It was rigorous.  There are several good coaching programs. ICF approves them. They have lists of them. What we're seeing more of, both on the executive side and in law firms, is that they want people that are certified coaches. Certification of a coach doesn't necessarily mean they're the right coach for you or they're a great coach, but it does mean they've taken it seriously enough that they put time and effort into it. They know what they should be doing. Hopefully, they're also doing it.  Sharon: You've been a lawyer and an executive, but being a lawyer, I can see how that gives you so much of an advantage. I'm thinking about how many times we've had to write a press release and weren't exactly sure—we did know, but we're not lawyers. It gives you an advantage. Andrew: Yeah, it does help. Especially in the past, it helped a great deal. If you look at studies of lawyer personalities versus the general population, lawyers typically are slower to trust other people. It makes sense. It's not a bad quality to have considering how we need to protect our clients' interests. But I found that lawyers and administrators in law firms are very happy that I have a legal background.  There was this one moment relatively early in my career where I was sitting across a managing partner's desk. He was starting to explain to me realization rates, and I held up my hand and said, “It's O.K.” He stopped and went, “Oh, that's right. You've practiced.” His shoulders sank down a couple of inches, and he sat back in his chair and said, “That's so nice that I don't have to go through all that explanation.” Understanding the context of what goes on in a law firm helps a tremendous amount. So, that is good. With that said, not everybody has to have a legal background. But I think some of the most effective coaches I know do have that background. Sharon: I can see how that would make you very effective, especially being on the other side of the desk in any capacity. If you were a lawyer at one point, you know about doing the work and getting the work. There's a difference there. I love the name of your firm, New Actions. That's what all of this is about, right? Andrew: You nailed it, Sharon. Especially when I started the firm, there was, like I said, a limited understanding of what coaching was about. Coaching can be these wonderful dialogues and interesting conversations you have with a coach-ee. What you want to do is get results—at least, that's my philosophy—and the results are helping people make changes. Where they are doing is not satisfactory for some reason. They may be unclear about a direction. They may need new skills. They may have difficultly working with people in the system of their organization or getting past that knowing-doing gap we talked about. It could be all those things, but people have to start taking new actions to get new results, better results. That's where the name came from.  Sharon: Do you think results last? Maybe they try the new actions once or twice and say, “Oh, that's different,” but then they forget. Maybe I'm personalizing it. I'm thinking you forget.  Andrew: Yeah, as I said earlier, there's a reason why people do the things the way they do. It's easy for people to revert back. That's one of the problems we find with training in a business or a professional firm environment. I'm sure you experienced that in doing trainings with lawyers and seeing they've learned all this new stuff. They'll do it for a couple of months, but without reinforcement, people do start to revert back to old behaviors. The six-month mark is my ballpark estimate. I liken it to having taken a foreign language in high school. You don't take it in college. You don't go to that foreign country. You don't use the language. You lose it. It certainly happened with me. That is a problem.  The difference with coaching is there is a reinforcement. Sometimes we do spot coaching or laser coaching. It may be three sessions. When it's really short, we're probably dealing with a specific issue or problem, but most executive coaching goes for six months. That's our target area. Often, it may extend a little bit longer than that. In the first part of the coaching, you're understanding the person, why they're doing what they're doing. Then you move into what they could be doing differently. In the middle third—and this is very rough as to the time—they're practicing the new skills, the new behaviors. They're understanding what works for them and what doesn't. The last third is really more practice. It's integrating those skills so they become second nature, almost automatic. That's where what you learn in coaching can become sticky, if I can use that term. After you finish coaching, it's going to stick with you.  I was just thinking of this while on LinkedIn. A former coach-ee of mine posted that he got a promotion, and I sent him a congratulations. I got back a comment saying, “Thank you so much for your coaching. I'm still quoting you.” I coached him about four years ago. That was the kind of gratification I was talking about earlier, the difference between being a lawyer and being a coach. I don't remember what I said or what he's quoting, but it stuck with him. He's using it, and he's in a global world now. That made me very happy. I had a big smile for the rest of that day. Sharon: As a lawyer, when should I consider getting a coach? What would I be dealing with? What should I look for? Andrew: O.K., two different questions. Often, the lawyers I'm working with, their firms have contacted me or they've been instrumental. With that said, one positive trend I've seen is that younger lawyers are saying, “I would like a coach. I need a coach.” Lately a lot of them are saying, “I'm overwhelmed. I'm stressed. I have too much work for my ability to handle it. I need to get better organized.” They're initiating that. The first step for a lawyer at any stage of their career is that you're dissatisfied with the way things are. You may have a good idea of where that's coming from. You may sense, “I want to stop doing whatever I'm doing now,” but knowing what you want to stop doing is different from knowing what you need to be doing differently. The analogy or metaphor I use is think back to being on the playground. We had monkey bars, I think they were called. Those were the horizontal bars that went across. You grab one and then you swing to the next one. What you learned early on as a kid was that if you don't have some forward momentum, you get stuck. Then you would end up letting go and dropping to the ground. In making changes, you have to be able to release the hand that's on the back bar. Sometimes in coaching, it's unlearning what you were doing. If an attorney finds themselves in that position, that's where coaching might help. It's not a panacea. It's not perfect for everybody.  I'm a good coach, but I'm not the right coach for absolutely everybody. Rapport is very important. Fit is a very important thing. Typically, when I work with somebody, I qualify them and they're qualifying me. Do they want to work with me? It's important that you feel a degree of comfort with your coach. As I've gone on, I think you can be too comfortable with a coach. You want a coach who can challenge you and be honest with you and be able to say, “No, I'm not saying this,” or “No, I don't think is working for you,” or “Hey, it sounds like there's an internal contradiction in what you're saying to me.” A lot of coaching is helping people get past their blind spots. We all have blind spots. That's not a failure. I think it's wired into us. Having another person there, especially an experienced person who can help us see what those blind spots are once you recognize you have them, that opens up a lot of possibilities for taking new actions. Sharon: You mentioned in some writings that you've helped people with difficult conversations. There are a lot of difficult conversations. Can you give us some examples in law? Andrew: There are two conversations that come to mind. One I alluded to earlier, which is pushing back on partners. Just recently I co-presented at a professional development consortium summer conference. It was a program on helping passive and timid associates learn to push back and manage up. For all the talk about law firms being flat organizations—and it's true; they do have fewer layers than a lot of business organizations—they're still pretty hierarchical. Younger attorneys can be overly deferential and very uncomfortable in saying no or pushing back. It can be a lot of different things. I don't have the bandwidth to handle work, like I mentioned earlier. How do you say that?  This can especially be a problem if you have one associate who's getting work from multiple partners. Then it's like, “Well, I'd like to do your work, but I'm slammed.” That can be a difficult conversation for an associate. In helping them, one learns that they need to do that and it's O.K. for them to do that. Actually, if they're just a passive person who's not providing that information to the people who are giving them work, they're harming the firm, harming clients potentially, and definitely harming themselves. That is something that's come up a lot lately, at least enough that the presentation we did this summer was very well received and attended. It's something that professional development managers and directors in big law are hearing from their associates. That's one area.  The second difficult conversation is around feedback. This is difficult in a way because it's not done enough. Often, in the rush of doing tasks and taking care of client matters, lawyers don't hit the pause button and spend time with the people who report to them and give them feedback on how they did. I remember this when I was a lawyer. You would finish a transaction. Rarely did we have the time to do a debrief. What worked well? What didn't? “This was great what you did. It really moved us forward. This is what you could have done differently that would have helped. Next time, maybe you can do it.” Feedback conversations are often missing.  The other thing in feedback conversations is that they can be very top-down and done with a lack of curiosity about what was going on with the associate. Those conversations can take a more collaborative tone, become more of a dialogue, be less about the problem. “Here's the problem that came up on this case. We were slow in responding to every filing the opposition brought to us. Let's get curious about why that happened. What can we, not just associates, but all of us as a team do differently?” Those sorts of conversations.  The hardest ones, Sharon, are obviously the conversations between partners in terms of strategy, direction, and compensation. Those are given to be difficult, and I do get pulled in to help. I'm a facilitator in those. I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm just trying to help people understand one another's perspective. What facts they're looking at, what their rationale is based on, trying to change it from a legal argument with pros, cons and who's going to win to more, “Let's look at the whole business of the law firm. Let's see what's good short-term and long-term for all of us, not just part of us.” Sharon: Each of these are very interesting scenarios. I give you credit for even being able to endure them, especially the first one. Covid probably changed this, but I do remember a partner saying, “What do they think evenings and weekends are for?” I always think of how partners would say, “This guy didn't make it in terms of client development. It was clear they weren't going to become a partner. I coached them out.” I always think about, “What did you say? How did you do that? Andrew: I'm not sure what coaching somebody out necessarily means. Let's stop here and think about lawyers as coaches. This is one of the things in my first book that I went into in some detail in one of the chapters. The skills for being a good lawyer, when you line them up against being a good coach, there's not a lot of overlap. Lawyers, to be good managers and leaders, they need to take off their lawyer hat at times. If they're coaching, which is a very potent, effective way of managing your people, you have to not approach it as lawyers.  For an example, as lawyers, we often ask closed-ended questions. We're getting to the facts. In coaching, open-ended questions are much better. You want to see where the conversation is going to go. You want to learn more about what's going on with the other person. In coaching, you also have to be listening very attentively, not thinking about, “What am I going to say in response to this?” Again, I'm going back to one of the shifts I had to make when I made the transition. As a lawyer, I'm thinking, “This is what I'm hearing from opposition. Now, how am I going to counter that argument? What am I going to say next? How do I want to navigate this conversation?” It's more oppositional in that way. You really do have to take off the lawyer hat at times to be effective. Sharon: Your first book, “Lawyers as Managers,” talks about that. Am I remembering that correctly? Andrew: That's the second book with Marcia Wasserman. The first one was “The Lawyer's Guide to Professional Coaching: Leadership, Mentoring, and Effectiveness.” That was, I think, back in 2012. It's available now. I think you can find used copies on Amazon. The ABA still has it as an e-book. Coaching in the last 10 years has certainly changed within law firms. At the time it was written, it was to help lawyers and firm administrators understand the potential of coaching. I'm happy to say I think that potential is increasingly realized. I wouldn't say my book is responsible for that solely. Absolutely not, but it was one piece that helped. In “Lawyers as Managers,” Marcia and I look at the role that lawyers need to take as people managers. Lawyers are generally good managers when it comes to technical aspects. You give a lawyer a spreadsheet, they're probably pretty good at dealing with it. Things like budgets. When you come to the more interpersonal stuff, like client development, lawyers aren't as good. When it comes to people management, there really was a lack of understanding.  Marcia originated the idea. We were at a meeting, and she said, “I'm looking for some materials on leadership and management for lawyers. Do you have any?” I said, “I have a few articles I've written for bar associations, but most of the stuff out there is general management and leadership. It's tailored for the executive committee, the business community.” A couple of months later, we had the same conversation. I said, “Marcia, we're going to have to write the book,” and she agreed. Little did she know what she was getting herself into. That, I will say, is the definitive book on people management for lawyers. Sharon: To end, can you tell us about one of the difficult conversations you've had? I don't know how many times I've stopped myself and just said, “I can't do it,” or “I'll go around it.” Andrew: I'll speak in general terms. Again, I'm going back to when I was first making the transition to coaching. I found a great deal of difficulty in having uncomfortable conversations where I had to deliver bad news. I had to tell somebody what they were doing was not working at all. It wasn't even neutral. It was really harming them and other people. In short, they were really messing up.  I was very gentle. I was bypassing. I was softening, diluting, sugar-coating messages that needed to be heard. I realized that I was playing nice. I didn't want to upset the other person. I didn't want to feel my own upset in doing this, so I wasn't providing value and the proof that they were making the changes they needed to make. This was maybe in my first two or three years of coaching, and I started to realize this isn't good. I was stuck and working with my coach at that time. I realized I had to let go of my personal discomfort if I was going to be more helpful to my clients, and I started to make the change. Now, I am honest. Sometimes people will say, “Can you predict or guarantee any results?” and I go, “No, absolutely not. Coaching at heart is a partnership. We're working together. I can't fix you. I can't wave a magic wand. It's on both of us. I'm here to help you, but just like I can't wear your clothes, I can't do everything for you. We're going to work together.” I do make three promises. One, I listen. I listen very attentively to what my coach-ees say and what they're not saying. The second thing is I am honest. I am very honest. I will not hold back in terms of what I'm hearing or the impact it's having on me. If a coach-ee is saying something and I'm not believing them, I'll say that. I need to. If I think something is B.S., it's the same thing. If I think they're fooling themselves, same thing. There are times where I have to deliver tough feedback.  The third promise is I'm compassionate. I don't beat people up in the process. I won't sugar-coat, dilute, or bypass. I deliver the message, but I understand they have feelings. In giving them this feedback, it may affect their emotions and their own identity as a person and a professional. I'm aware of it and sensitive to that, but I still get the message across. I figure that in the first two or three years of my coaching, I was sugar-coating. For the last 22 years, I think I have a good record of being straight with people and getting results. Sharon: Andrew, I'm sure you do get results. Thank you so much for being with us today. Andrew: It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it immensely. Thank you, Sharon.

“I think the biggest reason I food prep is to stay consistent,” explains host Dr. Andrew. It may not be easy to fit in a nutritious meal when our days get challenging, and we may be tempted to make poor choices. To help combat unhealthy food patterns, Dr. Andrew provides the top reasons to meal prep.   When we have too many food choices, we usually want to make the most fun ones, not necessarily the healthiest. By meal prepping, we can make it easier for ourselves to eat good meals that serve us without consistently testing our willpower. With spices, avocado, and quality ingredients, we can still eat well while practicing the consistency that leads to results.   When your life gets complicated, make sure your food's not. Learn more about why Dr. Andrew food preps, easy meal ideas, and the time-saving benefits of cooking ahead of time.   Quotes • “I think the biggest reason I food prep is to stay consistent. And then I know that it's not the end of the world if I get off track and have some treats or eat some things that might not be serving me.” (2:37-2:50 | Dr. Andrew) • “It is hard to avoid very tasty things, but it's easier when you already have a plan for what you're going to eat, and that plan is already set for you.” (5:47-5:58 | Dr. Andrew) • “The fewer choices I have to make, the more I can keep that willpower muscle strong.” (13:45-13:49 | Dr. Andrew) • “I've been eating the same lunch for months, and I'm not tired of it yet because it tastes good, I look forward to it, and I know it's going to taste good. I've had it every day. It tasted great yesterday, and I know it's going to taste good tomorrow.” (16:29-16:42 | Dr. Andrew)   Links   https://shipping.myfitfoods.com/ https://cleaneatz.com/   Connect with Physio Room:  Website | ​​https://physioroomco.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/physioroomco/ Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/physioroomco Andrew's Personal Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/dr.andrewfix/  Andrew's Personal Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/andrew.fix.9/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It wasn't until the 2020 election when there was a great deal of voter registration discrepancies in key battleground states, did people start looking at the role of the Secretary of State.  The Secretary is responsible for making certain that the voter registration roles are up to date and with eligible voters and anyone...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It wasn't until the 2020 election when there was a great deal of voter registration discrepancies in key battleground states, did people start looking at the role of the Secretary of State.  The Secretary is responsible for making certain that the voter registration roles are up to date and with eligible voters and anyone...

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again. addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com. CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308. Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom. Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the "I did a hard thing" for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: "Thought of you today, and you're saying, 'It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone." This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. "It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort." This is so good. I love when people share their "I did a hard thing," mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina. Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: "Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)" So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there. All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic. Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for "crazy people." Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, "I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD." And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, "Hey, you have a problem." And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story. So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these. So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day. So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, "I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time." So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, "I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps." I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. "Now this job. I need something." So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, "Well, one problem is you have OCD." I was like, "What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized." Gosh, I'm so thankful for her. Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person. Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, "Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress." Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga. Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, "Throw this in as well. Not really that important." But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, "I need you to commit to this." And I said, "But I don't think this is helping me either," because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, "None of this is external." I kept saying, "This is internal. I have something going on inside of me." And she said, "Well, I want you to commit to it." I said, "I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out." So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, "Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in." And my therapist, pause the video. She said, "Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins." Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, "Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you." And I'm like, "No, I don't like this." Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing. Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you. Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? "Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?" It was just this moment of, "What do you mean?" If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and "just right" OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people. Am I Doing Erp "Just Right"? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, "I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not." So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, "I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is." But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not. I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, "Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh." And then you get to the end and you go, "Okay, I made it through." And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that. Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, "You'd be so proud I did the exposure." And I'd be like, "And the RP, did that get included?" So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, "Oh, I cannot try to solve this." And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, "Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?" And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now. So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things. Kimberley: You're white-knuckling. Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, "I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this." So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger. And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others. ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, "You're fine. Let's never be around dogs." And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, "Oh, I'm not a dog person." You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the "Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over." So, for years, I had this like, "I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany." And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, "That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg." So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, "Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that." So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that. I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, "What are you doing with painted nails?" And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, "It's a beautiful day to do hard things." I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, "Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body." But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, "Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety." But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running. Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, "You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew." And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed. And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve. If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain "Dolores" after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. "Oh, did I get the time difference right?" I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting. And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, "Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior," or "I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief"? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, "Okay, be aware as you go into the day." And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type. So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety. So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, "I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on," I think in their head, it's "I have a lot of work." Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected. Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, "I got a question for you." And I'm like, "Ah, I missed that." So, I think that that's the beauty of this. Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, "Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?" "No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist." "Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?" "Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now." "Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?" "Nope. Go now." Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it? Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, "Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it." And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, "Oh, that's a stressful thing?" "Yeah, It can be." And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, "Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?" And I think that mindfulness piece is so important. So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, "Follow your values, talk about your values." Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, "You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine." Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, "Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me." I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, "Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great." It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

In This Episode: Andrew GottWorth shares his story of having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and how ERP allowed him to function again.  addresses the benefits of ERP and how ERP is for Everyone  How Exposure & response prevention can help people with OCD and for those with everyday stress and anxiety  Links To Things I Talk About: Andrew's Instagram @justrught ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors.  Go to cbtschool.com to learn more.  Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION  This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 308.  Welcome, everybody. I am really pumped for this episode. We have the amazing Andrew Gottworth on for an interview where he just shared so many nuggets of wisdom and hope and motivation. I think you're going to love it. But the main point we're making today is that ERP is for everyone. Everyone can benefit from facing their fears. Everyone can benefit by reducing their compulsive behaviors. Even if you don't technically call them compulsions, you too can benefit by this practice. Andrew reached out to me and he was really passionate about this. And of course, I was so on board that we jumped on a call right away and we got it in, and I'm so excited to share it with you. Thank you, Andrew, for sharing all your amazing wisdom.  Before we head into the show, let's quickly do the “I did a hard thing” for the week. This one is from Christina, and they went on to say: “Thought of you today, and you're saying, ‘It's a beautiful day to do hard things,' as I went down a water slide, terrified, as I'm well out of my comfort zone.” This is such great. They're saying that's on their holiday, the first time they've taken a holiday in quite a while. “It's difficult, but I'm doing it. I'm trying to lean into the discomfort.” This is so good. I love when people share their “I did a hard thing,” mainly, as I say before, because it doesn't have to be what's hard for everybody. It can be what's hard for you. Isn't it interesting, Christina is sharing a water slide is so terrifying? Christina, PS, I'm totally with you on that. But some of the people find it thrill-seeking. And then I'm sure the things that Christina does, she might not have anxiety, but other people who love to thrill seek find incredibly terrifying. So, please don't miss that point, guys. It is such an important thing that we don't compare. If it's terrifying, it's terrifying, and you deserve a massive yay. You did a hard thing for it. So, thank you, Christina.  Again, quickly, let me just quickly do the review of the week, and then we can set back and relax and listen to Andrew's amazing wisdom. This one is from Anonymous. Actually, this one is from Sydneytenney, and they said: “Incredible resource! What an incredible resource this podcast is! Thank you for sharing all of this information so freely… you're truly making a difference in so many lives, including mine! (I am also reading through your book and I LOVE it. You nailed it in marrying OCD with self-compassion - what a gift!!!)” So, for those of you who don't know, I wrote a book called The Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD. If you have OCD and you want a compassionate approach to ERP by all means, head over to Amazon or wherever you buy books and you can have the resource right there.  All right, let's get over to the show. Kimberley: Okay. Welcome, Andrew Gottworth. Thank you so much for being here. Andrew: Yeah. So, happy to be here. Really excited to chat with you for a bit. Kimberley: Yeah. How fun. I'm so happy you reached out and you had a message that I felt was so important to talk about. Actually, you had lots of ideas that I was so excited to talk about. Andrew: I might bring some of them up because I think, anyway, it's related to our big topic.  Erp Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. But the thing that I love so much was this idea that ERP (Exposure and Response Prevention) is for everyone. And so, tell me, before we get into that, a little bit about your story and where you are right up until today and why that story is important to you. Andrew: Yeah. So, there's a lot, as you work in the OCD field that it takes so long between first experiencing to getting a diagnosis. And so, with the knowledge I have now, I probably started in early childhood, elementary school. I remember racing intrusive thoughts in elementary school and being stuck on things and all that. But definitely, middle school, high school got worse and worse. So, fast forward to freshman year of college, it was really building up. I was really having a lot of issues. I didn't know what it was and really didn't know what it was for nine, 10 years later. But I was having a really hard time in college. I was depressed. I thought I was suicidal. Learning later, it's probably suicidal ideation, OCD just putting thoughts of death and jumping up a building and jumping in a lake and getting run over and all that. But I didn't want to talk about it then, I think. Andrew's Story About Having Obsessive Compulsive Disorder A bit about me, I come from Kentucky. I count Louisville, Kentucky as the Midwest. We have a bit of an identity crisis, whether we're South Midwest, East Coast, whatever. But still there, there's a culture that mental health is for “crazy people.” Of course, we don't believe that. So, my tiptoe around it was saying, “I'm having trouble focusing in class. Maybe I have ADHD.” And that's what I went in for. For some reason, that was more palatable for me to talk about that rather than talk about these thoughts of death and all that. And so, I did an intake assessment and thankfully I was somewhat honest and scored high enough on the depression scale that they were like, “Hey, you have a problem.” And so, ended up talking more. So, back in 2009, freshman year of college, I got diagnosed with depression and generalized anxiety disorder, but completely missed the OCD. I think they didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. I didn't have the language to talk about it at the time because I didn't have hand washing or tapping and counting and these other things that I would maybe see on TV and stuff, which – yeah, I see you nodding – yes, I know that's a common story.  So, I entered therapy in 2009, and I've been in therapy and non-medication ever since. But I had problems. I still had problems. I would make progress for a bit. And then I just feel like I was stuck. So, I ended up being in three mental hospitals. One, when I was doing AmeriCorps up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and had a great experience there. Two, three days up there at Rogers, which I'm very grateful for. And then stabilized moving forward. So, I ended up-- I dropped outta college. I dropped out of AmeriCorps. I then went back to college and again went to a mental hospital in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I was at Western Kentucky University, stabilize, keep going. Learning lessons along the way, learning cognitive distortions and learning talk therapy, and all these.  So, let's keep fast-forwarding. Another mental hospital in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a long-term outpatient stay, Skyline Trail. I'm thankful for all of these places along the way. And I wish somewhere along the way, I knew about OCD and knew about ERP, our big topic for the day.  So, finally, gosh, I can't quite remember. I think 2018, a few years ago, still having problems. I had gone from full-time at work to part-time at work. I was just miserable. I would get into my cubicle and just constantly think, I'm not going to make it. I got to go home. I got to find an excuse to get out of here early. I just need to stay sick or I got to go home, or something came up. And so, every day I'd have an excuse until I finally was like, “I'm going to get found out that I'm not working full-time. I'm going to jump the gun, I'll voluntarily go down in part-time.”  So, that worked for a bit until OCD kept going. And then I quit. I quit again. And at that point, I was like, “I've failed. I've quit so many things – college, AmeriCorps.” I was a summer camp counselor and I left early. “Now this job. I need something.” So, I went again to find more help. And finally, thankfully, someone did an intake assessment, came back, and said, “Well, one problem is you have OCD.” I was like, “What? No, I don't have that. I don't wash my hands. I'm not a messy person. I'm not organized.” Gosh, I'm so thankful for her.  Kimberley: Yeah, I want to kiss this person.  Andrew: Yeah. But here's the duality of it. She diagnosed me with it. I am forever grateful. And she didn't do ERP. She didn't know it. So unbelievably thankful that I got that diagnosis. It changed my life. And then I spent several weeks, maybe a few months just doing talk therapy again. And I just knew something didn't feel right. But I had this new magical thing, a diagnosis. And so, my OCD latched onto OCD and researched the heck out of it. And so, I was researching, researching, researching, and really starting to find some things like, “Oh, this isn't working for me. I've been doing the same type of therapy for a decade and I'm not making progress.” Unbelievably thankful for the Louisville OCD Clinic. So, at this point in this story-- thanks for listening to the whole saga.  Kimberley: No, I've got goosebumps. Andrew: I'm unemployed, I have my diagnosis, but I'm not making any progress. So, I go, “Throw this in as well. Not really that important.” But I go to an intensive outpatient program in Louisville before the OCD clinic. And I remember this conversation of the group therapy leader saying, “I need you to commit to this.” And I said, “But I don't think this is helping me either,” because the conversation was about relationships, my relationship was great. It was about work, I wasn't working. It was about parents, my parents were great. They were supporting me financially. They're super helpful and loving and kind. It's like, “None of this is external.” I kept saying, “This is internal. I have something going on inside of me.” And she said, “Well, I want you to commit to it.” I said, “I'm sorry, I found a local OCD clinic. I'm going to try them out.”  So, I did IOP, I did 10 straight days, and it is a magical, marvelous memory of mine. I mean, as you know, the weirdest stuff, oh gosh. Some of the highlights that are quite humorous, I had a thing around blood and veins. And so, we built our hierarchy, and maybe we'll talk about this in a bit, what ERP is. So, built the hierarchy, I'm afraid of cutting my veins and bleeding out. So, let's start with a knife on the table. And then the next day, the knife in the hand. And then the next day, the knife near my veins. And then we talked about a blood draw. And then the next day, we watched a video of a nurse talking about it. Not even the actual blood draw, but her talking about it. So, of course, my SUDs are up really high. And the nurse says in the video, “Okay, you need to find the juiciest, bumpiest vein, and that's where you put it in.” And my therapist, pause the video. She said, “Perfect. Andrew, I want you to go around to every person in the office and ask to feel the juiciest, bumpiest veins.” Oh my gosh. Can you imagine?  Kimberley: The imagery and the wording together is so triggering, isn't it? Andrew: Right. She's amazing. So, she was hitting on two things for me. One, the blood and veins, and two, inconveniencing people. I hated the inconveniencing people or have awkward moments. Well, hey, it's doing all three of these things. So, I went around. And of course, it's an OCD clinic, so nobody's against it. They're like, “Sure, here you go. This one looks big. Here, let me pump it up for you.” And I'm like, “No, I don't like this.” Kimberley: Well, it's such a shift from what you had been doing.  Andrew: It's totally different. I'll speak to the rest because that's really the big part. But ERP over the next few years gave me my life back. I started working again. I worked full-time. Went part-time, then full-time. Got into a leadership position. And then for a few other reasons, my wife and I decided to make a big jump abroad. And so, moved to Berlin. And I have a full-time job here and a part-time disc golf coach trainer. And now I'm an OCD advocate and excited to work with you on that level and just looking at where my life was four or five years ago versus now. And thanks to our big-ticket item today, ERP. Kimberley: Right. Oh, my heart is so exploding for you. Andrew: Oh, thank you.  Kimberley: My goodness. I mean, it's not a wonderful story. It's actually an incredibly painful story. Andrew: You can laugh at it. I told it humorously. How Andrew Applied Erp For His Ocd Kimberley: No. But that's what I'm saying. That's what's so interesting about this, is that it's such a painful story, but how you tell it-- would I be right in saying like a degree of celebration to it? Tell me a little bit about-- you're obviously an ERP fan. Tell me a little bit about what that was like. Were you in immediately, or were you skeptical? Had you read enough articles to feel like you were trusting it? What was that like for you? Because you'd been put through the wringer. Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot to talk about, but there are a couple of key moments when you mention it. So, one, we're going through the Y-BOCS scale, the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale, something like that. So, she asks me one of the questions like, how often do you feel like a compulsion to do something and you don't do the compulsion? “Oh, never. I've never stopped. But you can do that?” It was just this moment of, “What do you mean?” If it's hot, I'm going to make it colder. If it's cold, I'm going to make it warmer. If I'm uncomfortable, I'm going to fidget. I'm a problem solver. Both my parents were math teachers. I was an all-A student and talk about perfectionism and “just right” OCD maybe in this context as well. But also, I love puzzles. I love solving things. And that was me. I was a problem solver. It never occurred to me to not solve the problem. And so, that was a huge aha moment for me. And I see it now and I talk about it now to other people.  Am I Doing Erp “Just Right”? But another part of ERP with the just right is, am I doing ERP right? Am I doing it right? Am I doing ERP right? And of course, my therapist goes, “I don't know. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.” So, depending on where you want to go with this, we can talk about that more. So, I think in general, I hated that at the time. I was like, “I know there is a right way to do it. There is. I know there is.” But now, I even told someone yesterday in our Instagram OCD circles, someone was posting about it, and I said exactly that, that I hated this suggestion at first that maybe you're doing it wrong, maybe you're not.  I will say, as we talk about ERP for everyone, someone who maybe is going to listen to this or hears us talking on Instagram and wants to do it on their own, this idea of exposing yourself to something uncomfortable and preventing the response – I don't know if this is wrong, but I will say for me, it was not helpful. In my first few weeks, I would do something like-- I was a little claustrophobic, so I maybe sit in the middle seat of a car. It's good I'm doing the exposure. I'm preventing the response by staying there. I didn't get out. But in my head, I'm doing, “Just get through this. Just get through this. I hate this. It's going to be over soon. You'll get through it and then you'll be better. Come on, just get through it. Oh, I hate this. Ugh. Ugh.” And then you get to the end and you go, “Okay, I made it through.” And of course, that didn't really prevent the response. That reinforced my dread of it. And so, I would say that's definitely a lesson as we get into that.  Kimberley: And I think that brings me to-- you bring up a couple of amazing points and I think amazing roadblocks that we have to know about ERP. So, often I have clients who'll say early in treatment, “You'd be so proud I did the exposure.” And I'd be like, “And the RP, did that get included?” So, let's talk about that. So, for you, you wanted to talk about like ERP is for everyone. So, where did that start for you? Where did that idea come from? Andrew: I would say it's been slow going over the years where-- I don't know how to say this exactly, but thinking like, there must be higher than 2% of people that have OCD because I think you have it and I think you have it and I think you have it, and noticing a lot of these things. And so, maybe they're not clinical level OCD and maybe it's just anxiety or I think, as I emailed you, just stress. But it's this-- I just wonder how many friends and family and Instagram connections have never had that aha moment that I did in my first week of IOP of, “Oh, I cannot try to solve this.” And so, I see people that I really care about and I joked with my wife, I said, “Why is it that all of our best friends are anxious people?” And I think that comes with this care and attention and that I've suffered and I don't want anyone else to suffer. And so, I see that anxiety in others. But getting back to what I see in them, maybe someone is socially anxious so they're avoiding a party or they're leaving early, or-- I mean, I did these two, avoided, left early, made sure I was in either a very large group where nobody really noticed me or I was in a one-on-one where I had more control. I don't know. So, seeing that in some other friends, leaving early, I just want to say to them, you can stay. It's worked for me. It really has. This staying, exposing yourself to the awkwardness of staying or maybe it's a little too loud or it's too warm. And then let that stress peak fall and see, well, how do you feel after 30 minutes? How do you feel after an hour? I want to scream that to my friends because it's helped me so much. I mean, you heard how awful and miserable it was for so long and how much better. I'm not cured, I think. I'm still listening to your six-part rumination series because I think that's really what I'm working on now.  So, I think those physical things, I've made tremendous improvement on blood and veins and all that. But that's also not why I quit work. I didn't quit working. I didn't quit AmeriCorps because there's so much blood everywhere. No, it's nonprofits, it's cubicles. But it was this dread that built this dread of the day, this dread of responding to an email. Am I going to respond right? Oh no, I'm going to get a phone call. Am I going to do that? Am I going to mess this up? And because I didn't have that response prevention piece, all I had was the exposure piece, then it's-- I can't remember who said it, but like, ERP without the RP is just torture. You're just exposing yourself to all these miserable things.  Kimberley: You're white-knuckling.  Andrew: Yeah. And it's-- I love research. I am a scientist by heart. I'm a Physics major and Environmental Studies master's. I love research and all this. And so, I've looked into neuroplasticity, but I also am not an expert. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I hear, you're just reinforcing that neural pathway. So, I'm going into work and I dread it. I'm saying, “I hate this. I can't wait to go home. I hate this.” So, that's reinforcing that for the next day. And tomorrow I go in and that dreads bigger, and the next day the dreads bigger.  And so, seeing that in other colleagues who are having a miserable time at work is just getting worse and worse and worse. But I also can see that there are parts they enjoy. They enjoy problem-solving, they enjoy helping students, they enjoy the camaraderie. And so, I want to help them with, well, let's see how we can do ERP with the things you don't like and so you're not building this dread day after day and you can do the things you value. Seems like you value us coworkers, seems like you value helping the students, seems like you value solving this problem, and that's meaningful. But I'm watching you get more and more deteriorated at work. And that's hard to do that in others.  ERP Is For Everyone Kimberley: Yeah. I resonate so much from a personal level and I'll share why, is I have these two young children who-- thankfully, I have a Mental Health degree and I have license, and I'm watching how anxiety is forming them. They're being formed by society and me and my husband and so forth, but I can see how anxiety is forming them. And there's so many times-- I've used the example before of both my kids separately were absolutely petrified of dogs. And they don't have OCD, but we used a hierarchy of exposure and now they can play with the neighbor's dogs. We can have dogs sitting. And it was such an important thing of like, I could have missed that and just said, “You're fine. Let's never be around dogs.” And so, it's so interesting to watch these teeny tiny little humans being formed by like, “Oh, I'm not a dog person.” You are a dog person. You're just afraid of dogs. It's two different things. Andrew: Yeah. So, it's funny that my next-door neighbor, when I was young, had a big dog. And when we're moving into the house for the very first time, very young, I don't know, four or something, it ran into the house, knocked me over, afraid of dogs for years. So, same thing. Worked my way up, had a friend with a cute little pup, and then got to a scarier one. And also, funnily to me, my next-door neighbor, two in a row, were German, and they scared me, the scary dog, German. And then the next one was the “Stay off my lawn, don't let your soccer ball come over.” So, for years, I had this like, “I'm not going to root for Germany in sports. I don't like Germany.” And then here I am living in Germany now. Kimberley: Like an association. Andrew: Yeah. So, I think fear association, anxiety association. And then I'm also playing around with this idea, maybe do a series on Instagram or maybe another talk with someone about, is it anxiety or is it society? And so, talking about things that were made to feel shame about. So, I don't know if you can see on our webcam that I have my nails painted. I would never have done this in Kentucky. So, growing up in this, I remember vividly in elementary school, I sat with my legs crossed and someone said, “That's how a girl sits. You have to sit with your foot up on your leg.” So, I did for the rest of my life. And then I wore a shirt with colorful fish on it, and they said, “Oh, you can't wear that, guys don't wear that.” So, I didn't. I stopped wearing that and all these things, whether it's about our body shape or femininity or things we enjoy that are maybe dorky or geeky. I just started playing Dungeons and Dragons. We have a campaign next week. And I remember kids getting bullied for that.  I don't know if you agree, but I see this under the umbrella of ERP. So, you're exposing yourself to this potential situation where there's shame or embarrassment, or you might get picked on. Someone might still see these on the train and go, “What are you doing with painted nails?” And I'm going to choose to do that anyway. I still get a little squirmy sometimes, but I want to. I want to do that and I want that for my friends and family too. And I see it in, like you said, in little kids. A lot of my cousins have young kids and just overhearing boys can't wear pink, or you can't be that when you grow up, or just these associations where I think you can, I think you can do that. Kimberley: I love this so much because I think you're so right in why ERP is for everyone. It's funny, I'll tell you a story and then I don't want to talk about me anymore, but-- Andrew: No, I want to hear it. That's fine. Kimberley: I had this really interesting thing happen the other day. Now I am an ERP therapist. My motto is, “It's a beautiful day to do hard things.” I talk and breathe this all day, and I have recovered from an eating disorder. But this is how I think it's so interesting how ERP can be layered too, is I consider myself fully recovered. I am in such good shape and I get triggered and I can recover pretty quick. But the other day, I didn't realize this was a compulsion that I am still maybe doing. I went to a spa, it was a gift that was given to me, and it says you don't have to wear your bathing suit right into the thing. So, I'm like, “Cool, that's fine. I'm comfortable with my body.” But I caught myself running from the bathroom down into the pool, like pretty quickly running until I was like, that still learned behavior, it's still learned avoidance from something I don't even suffer from anymore. And I think that, to speak to what you're saying, if we're really aware we can-- and I don't have OCD, I'm open about that. If all humans were really aware, they could catch avoidant behaviors we're doing all the time that reinforces fear, which is why exposure and response prevention is for everybody. Some people be like, “Oh, no, no. I don't even have anxiety.” But it's funny what you can catch in yourself that how you're running actually literally running.  Andrew: Literally running. Yeah. Kimberley: Away. So, that's why I think you've mentioned how social anxiety shows up and how exposure and response prevention is important for that. And daily fears, societal expectations, that's why I think that's so cool. It's such a cool concept. Andrew: Yeah. And so, help me since I do consider you the expert here, but I've heard clinically that ERP can be used for OCD but also eating disorder, at least our clinic in Louisville serves OCD, eating disorder, and PTSD. And so, I see the similarities there of the anxiety cycle, the OCD cycle for each of those. So, then let's say that's what ERP is proposed for. But then we also have generalized anxiety and I think we're seeing that. I've heard Jenna Overbaugh talk about that as well. It's this scale between anxiety to high anxiety to subclinical OCD, to clinical OCD, and that ERP is good for all of that. So, we have those, and then we get into stress and avoidant behavior. So, I have this stressful meeting coming up, I'll find a way to skip it. Or I have this stressful family event, I'll find a way to avoid it. And then you get into the societal stuff, you get into these. And so, I see it more and more that yes, it is for everyone. Kimberley: Yeah. No, I mean, clinically, I will say we understand it's helpful for phobias, health anxiety, social anxiety, generalized anxiety. Under the umbrella of OCD are all these other disorders and, as you said, spectrums of those disorders that it can be beneficial for. And I do think-- I hear actually a lot of other clinicians who aren't OCD specialists and so forth talking about imposter syndrome or even like how cancel culture has impacted us and how everybody's self-censoring and avoiding and procrastinating. And I keep thinking like ERP for everybody. And that's why I think like, again, even if you're not struggling with a mental illness, imposter syndrome is an avoidant. Often people go, procrastination is an avoidant behavior, a safety behavior or self-censoring is a safety behavior, or not standing up for you to a boss is an opportunity for exposure as long as of course they're in an environment that's safe for them. So, I agree with you. I think that it is so widespread an opportunity, and I think it's also-- this is my opinion, but I'm actually more interested in your opinion, is I think ERP is also a mindset. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Like how you live your life. Are you a face-your-fear kind of person? Can you become that person? That's what I think, even in you, and actually, this is a question, did your identity shift? Did you think you were a person who couldn't handle stresses and now you think you are? Or what was the identity shift that you experienced once you started ERP? Andrew: Yeah. That's a good question. I've had a few identity shifts over the years. So, I mentioned-- and not to be conceited, although here I am self-censoring because I don't want to come across as conceited anyway. So, I was an all-A student in high school, and then OCD and depression hit hard. And so, throughout college, freshman year I got my first B, sophomore year I got my first C, junior year I got my first D. And so, I felt like I was crawling towards graduation. And this identity of myself as Club President, all-A student, I had to come to terms with giving up who I thought I could be. I thought I could be-- people would joke, “You'll be the mayor of this town someday, Andrew.” And I watched this slip away and I had to change that identity. And not to say that you can't ever get that back with recovery, but what I will say is through recovery, I don't have that desire to anymore. I don't have that desire to be a hundred percent. I'm a big fan of giving 80%. And mayor is too much responsibility. I don't know, maybe someday. So, that changed.  And then definitely, through that down downturn, I thought, I can't handle this. I can't handle anxiety, I can't handle stress. People are going to find out that this image I've built of myself is someone who can't handle that. So, then comes the dip coming back up, ERP, starting to learn I can maybe but also-- I love to bounce all over the place, but I think I want to return a bit to that idea that you don't have to fix it. You don't have to solve the problem. I think that was me. And that's not realizing that I was making it harder on myself, that every moment of the day I was trying to optimize, fix, problem-solve.  If you allow me another detour, I got on early to make sure the video chat was working, sound was okay. And I noticed in my walk over to my computer, all the things my brain wanted me to do. I call my brain “Dolores” after Dolores Umbridge, which is very mean to me. My wife and I, Dolores can F off. But I checked my email to make sure I had the date right. Oops, no, the checking behavior. Check the time, making sure, because we're nine hours apart right now. “Oh, did I get the time difference right?” I thought about bringing over an extra set of lights so you could see me better. I wanted to make sure I didn't eat right before we talked, so I didn't burp on camera, made sure I had my water, and it was just all these-- and if I wasn't about to meet with an OCD expert, I wouldn't have even noticed these. I wouldn't have even noticed all of these checking, fidgeting, optimizing, best practicing. But it's exhausting.  And so, I'm going to maybe flip the script and ask you, how do you think other people that are not diagnosed with OCD, that are just dealing with anxiety and stress can notice these situations in their life? How do they notice when, “Oh, I'm doing an avoidant behavior,” or “I'm fixing something to fix my anxiety that gives me temporary relief”? Because I didn't notice them for 10 years. Kimberley: Yeah. Well, I think the question speaks to me as a therapist, but also me as a human. I catch every day how generalized anxiety wants to take me and grab me away. And so, I think a huge piece of it is knowledge, of course. It's knowledge that that-- but it's a lot to do with awareness. It's so much to do with awareness. I'll give you an example, and I've spoken about this before. As soon as I'm anxious, everything I do speeds up. I start walking faster, I start typing faster, I start talking faster. And there's no amount of exposure that will, I think, prevent me from going into that immediate behavior. So, my focus is staying-- every day, I have my mindfulness book right next to me. It's like this thick, and I look at it and I go, “Okay, be aware as you go into the day.” And then I can work at catching as I start to speed up and speed type.  So, I think for the person who doesn't have OCD, it is, first, like you said, education. They need to be aware, how is this impacting my life. I think it's being aware of and catching it. And then the cool part, and this is the part I love the most about being a therapist, is I get to ask them, what do you want to do? Because you don't have to change it. I'm not doing any harm by typing fast. In fact, some might say I'm getting more done, but I don't like the way it makes me feel. And so, I get to ask myself a question, do I want to change this behavior? Is it serving me anymore? And everyone gets to ask them that solves that question. Andrew: So, I think you bring up a good point though that I'm curious if you've heard this as well. So, you said you're typing fast and you're feeling anxious and you don't like how that feels. I would say for me, and I can think of certain people in my life and also generally, they don't realize those are connected. I didn't realize that was connected. In college, I'm wanting to drop out, I drop out of AmeriCorps, I drop out of summer camp. I'm very, very anxious and miserable and I don't know why. And looking back, I see it was this constant trying to fix things and being on alert. And I got to anticipate what this is going to be or else is going to go bad. I need to prevent this or else I'm going to have an anxious conversation. I need to only wear shorts in the winter because I might get hot. Oh no, what if I get hot? And it was constantly being in this scanning fear mindset of trying to avoid, trying to prevent, trying to-- thinking I was doing all these good things. And I saw myself as a best-practice problem solver. It's still something I'm trying to now separate between Dolores and Andrew. Andrew still loves best practices. But if I spend two hours looking for a best practice when I could have done it in five minutes, then maybe that was a waste. And I didn't realize that was giving me that anxiety.  So, yeah, I guess going back to I think of family, I think of coworkers, I think of friends that I have a suspicion, I'm not a therapist, I can't diagnose and I'm not going to go up, I think you have this. But seeing that they're coming to me and saying, “I'm exhausted. I just have so much going on,” I think in their head, it's “I have a lot of work.” Kimberley: External problems. Andrew: Yeah. I may be seeing-- yeah, but there's all this tension. You're holding it in your shoulders, you're holding it here, you're typing fast and not realizing that, oh, these are connected.  Kimberley: And that's that awareness piece. It's an awareness piece so much. And it is true. I mean, I think that's the benefit of therapy. Therapists are trained to ask questions so that you can become aware of things that you weren't previously aware of. I go to therapy and sometimes even my therapist will be like, “I got a question for you.” And I'm like, “Ah, I missed that.” So, I think that that's the beauty of this.  Andrew: I had a fun conversation. I gave a mental health talk at my school and talked about anxiety in the classroom, and thanks to IOCDF for some resources there, there's a student that wanted to do a follow-up. And I thought this was very interesting and I loved the conversation, but three or four times he was like, “Well, can I read some self-help books, and then if those don't work, go to therapy?” “No, I think go to therapy right away. Big fan of therapists. I'm not a therapist. You need to talk to a therapist.” “Okay. But what if I did some podcasts and then if that didn't work, then I go to therapy?” “Nope. Therapy is great. Go to therapy now.” “Should I wait till my life gets more stressful?” “Nope. Go now.” Kimberley: Yeah, because it's that reflection and questioning. Everyone who knows me knows I love questions. They're my favorite. So, I think you're on it. So, this is so good. I also want to be respectful of your time. So, quick rounded out, why is ERP for everybody, in your opinion? Andrew: How do we put this with a nice bow on it?  Kimberley: It doesn't have to be perfect. Let's make it purposely imperfect. Andrew: Let's make it perfectly imperfect. So, we talked before about the clinical levels – OCD, eating disorder, PTSD, generalized anxiety disorder. If you have any of those, take it from me personally, take it from you, take it from the thousands of people that said, “Hey, actually, ERP is an evidence-based gold standard. We know it works, we've seen it work. It's helped us. Let it help you because we care about you and we want you to do it.” And then moving down stress from work, from life. You have a big trip coming up. There's a fun scale, home's rocky, something stress inventory. I find it very interesting that some of them are positive, outstanding personal achievement like, “Oh, that's a stressful thing?” “Yeah, It can be.” And so, noticing the stressful things in your life and saying, “Well, because of these stressful things are the things I'm avoiding, things I'm getting anxious about, can I learn to sit with that?” And I think that mindfulness piece is so important.  So, whether you're clinical, whether you're subclinical, whether you have stress in your life, whether you're just avoiding something uncomfortable, slightly uncomfortable, is that keeping you from something you want to do? Is that keeping you-- of course, we-- I don't know if people roll their eyes at people like us, “Follow your values, talk about your values.” Do you value spending time with your friends, but you're avoiding the social gathering? Sounds like ERP could help you out with that. Or you're avoiding this, you want to get a certification, but you don't think you'll get it and you don't want to spend the time? Sounds like ERP could help with that. We're in the sports field. My wife and I rock climbing, bouldering, disc golf. You value the sport, but you're embarrassed to do poorly around your friends? Sounds ERP can help with that. You value this thing. I think we have a solution. I've become almost evangelical about it. Look at this thing, it works so well. It's done so much for me. Kimberley: Love it. Okay, tell me where-- I'm going to leave it at that. Tell me where people can hear about you and get in touch with you and hear more about your work. Andrew: Mainly through Instagram at the moment. I have a perfectly imperfect Instagram name that you might have to put down. It's JustRught but with right spelled wrong. So, it's R-U-G-H-T. Kimberley: That is perfect. Andrew: Yeah. Which also perfectly was a complete accident. It was just fat thumbs typing out my new account and I said, “You know what, Andrew, leave it. This works. This works just fine.” Kimberley: Oh, it is so good. It is so good. Andrew: Yeah. So, I'm also happy I mentioned to you earlier that my wife and I have started this cool collab where I take some of her art and some of the lessons I've learned in my 12-plus years of therapy and we mix them together and try to put some lessons out there. But I'm currently an OCD advocate as well. You can find me on IOCDF's website or just reach out. But really excited to be doing this work with you. I really respect and admire your work and to get a little gushing embarrassed. When I found out that I got accepted from grassroots advocate to regular advocate, I said, “Guys, Kimberley Quinlan is at the same level as me.” I was so excited. Kimberley: You're so many levels above me. Just look at your story. That's the work. Andrew: The imposter syndrome, we talked about that earlier. Kimberley: Yeah, for sure. No, I am just overwhelmed with joy to hear your story, and thank you. How cool. Again, the reason I love the interviews is I pretty much have goosebumps the entire time. It just is so wonderful to hear the ups and the downs and the reality and the lessons. It's so beautiful. So, thank you so much. Andrew: I will add in, if you allow me a little more time, that it's not magic. We're not saying, “Oh, go do ERP for two days and you'll be great.” It's hard work. It's a good day to do hard things. I think if it was easy, we wouldn't be talking about it so much. We wouldn't talk about the nuance. So, I think go into it knowing it is work, but it is absolutely worth it. It's given me my life back, it's saved my relationships, it's helped me move overseas, given me this opportunity, and I'm just so thankful for it. Kimberley: Yeah. Oh, mic drop. Andrew: Yeah. Kimberley: Thank you again.

“It might be uncomfortable to start, but you're probably not going to regret it after you step outside your comfort zone just a little bit,” explains host Dr. Andrew. Even though we are used to trying to make our lives easier, Dr. Andrew recognizes the benefit of living outside our comfort zone. Today, Dr. Andrew provides a helpful reminder to push your limits and allow yourself to thrive.   When you have a goal in mind, it may be challenging to start. We may feel discomfort, which may push us to quit before we get started. Dr. Andrew urges listeners to understand that anything worth doing is difficult initially but will get easier over time. If you drive yourself to do hard things and make tangible steps, you will be surprised that succeeding is not an impossible task.   It may be a struggle, but when you work outside your comfort zone, you can truly live. Learn more about how modern society was designed to make us comfortable, how to make positive steps, and why working past the discomfort brings us pride.    Quotes • “It's a little uncomfortable to push yourself in a workout and make yourself feel uncomfortable. But after that workout is over, do you regret doing it? Almost no one does.” (3:47-4:00 | Andrew) • “It might be uncomfortable to start, but you're probably not going to regret it after you step outside your comfort zone just a little bit. You'll probably be glad you did and look back on that and feel good about it.” (4:19-4:29 | Andrew) • “The more I do these little things, the more they feel like little wins, and they stack on top of each other, and it's like a snowball or a domino effect in a positive direction.” (5:54-6:03 | Andrew)  • “I just want this episode to be like a reminder, or a PSA, to get out there and do hard things.” (8:31-8:39 | Andrew)    Links   Book | https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/634446/the-comfort-crisis-by-michael-easter/   Connect with Physio Room:  Website | ​​https://physioroomco.com/  Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/physioroomco/ Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/physioroomco Andrew's Personal Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/dr.andrewfix/  Andrew's Personal Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/andrew.fix.9/   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's hard to believe that in this day and age, in 2022, we are having a conversation about what is a man and a woman or male and female. The answer to both was provided in the creation story of Genesis in the Bible. Science and biology have also given us the blueprint with XY and XX chromosomes. We are all told to follow the science...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's hard to believe that in this day and age, in 2022, we are having a conversation about what is a man and a woman or male and female. The answer to both was provided in the creation story of Genesis in the Bible. Science and biology have also given us the blueprint with XY and XX chromosomes. We are all told to follow the science...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's now evident Democrats support illegal aliens coming across the border just as long as they don't end up in their backyard. This fact became evident when 50 illegals were recently dropped off at the tony vacation spot of Martha's Vineyard. Instead of being greeted with open arms, within 24 hours, the illegals were immediately carted off the...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's now evident Democrats support illegal aliens coming across the border just as long as they don't end up in their backyard. This fact became evident when 50 illegals were recently dropped off at the tony vacation spot of Martha's Vineyard. Instead of being greeted with open arms, within 24 hours, the illegals were immediately carted off the...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's a battle of words to the finish line pitting Mitch McConnell, the minority leader of the House, against venerable former President Donald Trump. The latter has proven his staying power, with candidates he supported during the primaries, winning. Now the real test is whether they prevail in a general election...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's a battle of words to the finish line pitting Mitch McConnell, the minority leader of the House, against venerable former President Donald Trump. The latter has proven his staying power, with candidates he supported during the primaries, winning. Now the real test is whether they prevail in a general election...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was a catastrophic failure on many levels, and nearly a thousand Americans were left behind enemy lines along with military equipment. While the left-wing media overlooked the story then and now, we can not forget the innocent soldiers who died to protect freedom...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It was a catastrophic failure on many levels, and nearly a thousand Americans were left behind enemy lines along with military equipment. While the left-wing media overlooked the story then and now, we can not forget the innocent soldiers who died to protect freedom...

Host Helen Lee continues to interview Andrew Khor, an Energy Master and Master Healer from Malaysia. He worked in advertising for a total of 25 years, 16 of which were with Ogilvy, before he totally left the corporate world to immerse himself in the field of energy and healing.   Andrew is a Golden Amrit Mentor, facilitates workshops in Spontaneous Kundalini Rising, DNA Activation and Ascension, Inner Peace Reiki and Male Female Balancing. He is the creator of several different powerful and highly effective modalities, some of which Host Helen Lee has personally experienced and also arranged for her family, clients and others to experience. Andrew and Helen discuss transformative golden energy and its miraculous effect on ourselves and our planet. Both of them have had their own golden light experiences which have led them to create their own unique modality or methodology that help the growing number of people worldwide, who are awakening to be comfortable with and successfully integrate the great transformation occurring within them. This unprecedented alchemy occurring within humans on Earth will accelerate in the next 10 years, impacting everyone of all ages and backgrounds so that human consciousness will be massively raised.  Helen has chosen to represent extraordinary healers and energy masters such as Andrew and his team, to add to her own team of coaches she personally trains to deliver her own coaching methodology, so that she can offer the world a more complete, powerful and holistic means of supporting everyone of all ages and backgrounds to truly transform and thrive in these unprecedented times. You can write to her at enquiries@leeheiss.com if you wish to have trial sessions of either Golden Amrit or any other modalities that Andrew has created, and she will arrange for you (please note that Andrew is only available in one or two months from now). She will also be organising Masterclasses in the near future with Andrew and other select podcast guests for listeners, that will help everyone transform and thrive. Stay tuned! To do well or even flourish in our work and professional or business lives, we need to get our foundations right and strong, especially in these times. Hence, Helen is bringing what is personal, innovative, energetic and spiritual to the current chaotic world we live in, to provide practical and holistic tools and strategies to prepare everyone at all levels in all fields to greatly transform and thrive.  And to encourage people and organisations to dare to venture beyond old ways that can no longer serve you well in these times! She urges ALL to listen to ALL episodes, including this one.  ENJOY! KEY TAKEAWAYS Andrew has been creating different derivations of the Reiki methodology through receiving new symbols from Dr Usui, the originator of Reiki himself who has passed on. He is, however, delivering the Golden Amrit energy to clients by using traditional Reiki symbols which he transmits in a totally new and advanced way from his Inner Being. As we get increasingly aligned and raise our vibration, we would draw to us more and more people who are also increasingly aligned and of a higher level of consciousness, committed to focus on the process of transforming and thriving. And Helen together with her team of coaches and healers/energy masters such as Andrew offer powerful means of doing so. Upon awakening, people become less egocentric, less aggressive. The change is spontaneous and achieved, with guidance, in a natural progression.  We will also become far more creative and will come up with innovative and practical ideas of how we can thrive in our personal and work lives.   With the modalities and methodologies that Helen and Andrew offer, various challenges at all levels - physical, emotional, mental, energetic and spiritual - can be reduced in intensity or even resolved, with the client's full collaboration. It is a simple, natural and spontaneous process of returning to our original states. Organisations must also become open to the transformation and with that, will come a new way of business that will be more in sync with the natural world, each other, and our place in it. Helen has successfully used her innovative coaching methodology (coupled with traditional coaching of the highest international standards) not only with individuals worldwide, but also with many top multinationals for more than 10 years and intends to bring the updated and upgraded version of it to the global corporate world to help support leaders, teams and organisations to be their best selves and have what it takes to up level themselves tremendously to excel in these times rapid change and great challenges.    BEST MOMENTS ‘We need new information and technologies to help everyone move towards wholeness and being our Greater Selves and the goal has to be to support both individuals and organisations worldwide. – Helen ‘It's like a yin and a yang. The yin, the nurturing, the caring and the giving and in Asia we are raised in that direction. Whereas the yang is being firm, authoritative, or standing for your rights, standing for your boundaries.' – Andrew (Note that Helen's company logo is a contemporary version of the yin yang symbol to represent supporting people to move towards greater balance which, in turn, brings greater power and success at all levels, both material and intangible.) ‘I took up Kundalini Awakening in 1995 and it was a period of time that I learnt about meditation and chakras. I learned so many things and I had this rising energy within me. When the kundalini rises within you and you are prepared for it and you have good teachers, there is spontaneous inner transformation.' – Andrew ‘It's a very sobering process. We all go through it and therefore I find that change begins with me. I want my world to be different, I've got to start changing myself first.' – Andrew ‘This can help other people too.There are millions of people who suffer from anxiety or depression. At this time, worrying about the economy of the world, covid still being around..' – Helen  ‘I'm initially training more people because the idea is to create more people with this ability to go out there and help people.' - Andrew   ABOUT THE HOST HELEN LEE Founder & Principal Coach of Lee Heiss Coaching, Helen Lee coached thousands of clients worldwide and multinationals in Asia-Pacific in the last three decades. She created a powerful ontological coaching methodology that ignites the true greatness or invincibility in people. Thoroughly tested and honed over 20 years, this methodology consistently and rapidly produces desired results. Helen was also a journalist who later ran her own communications consultancies in Australia and Asia.The Business Times listed her in its “Who's Who of Women Shaping Singapore” while The Straits Times named her “The Leader Prodder” in a feature on Singapore's top coaches. VALUABLE RESOURCES To become a member of the Transform and Thrive Club and benefit from monthly powerful live sessions on Zoom video calls and multimedia coaching, check out and sign up here: www.transformandthrive.club   CONTACT METHOD  www.leeheiss.com  www.facebook.com/leeheiss  www.facebook.com/transformingpeopleworldwide  www.instagram.com/helenleeheiss  enquiries@leeheiss.com

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's been barely a week since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and already many left-wing politicians are devising plans to keep children from being born. Celebrating life used to be the mantra of the left, but that is long gone. Even the idea of promoting the family institution is becoming a draconian...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's been barely a week since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and already many left-wing politicians are devising plans to keep children from being born. Celebrating life used to be the mantra of the left, but that is long gone. Even the idea of promoting the family institution is becoming a draconian...

Andrew Stotz talks with Dr. Mustafa Shraim of Ohio University about Deming's approach to variation, comparing it to Lean and Six Sigma. "When you do Six Sigma, you're basically outsourcing your quality to an external source, providing the training, the titles, and all of that. You can cut it off any time. But when you do the [Deming] theory of knowledge and the Plan-Do-Study-Act, you have to commit. The commitment is really the big deal here...the component that is missing [from Six Sigma] is a commitment to quality." SHOW NOTES4:30 Variation 12:40 The problem with Six Sigma 20:40 Statical Process Control Charts 25:44 Deming chain reaction 30:03 Suboptimizing departments 43:01 Management by visible figures 40:05 Why Deming, why now? Driving out fear 50:52 Continuous improvement and Plan-Do-Study-Act TRANSCRIPTDownload the complete transcript here. 0:00:04.1 Andrew: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today I'm here with featured guest, Mustafa Shraim. Mustafa, are you ready to share your Deming journey?   0:00:19.8 Mustafa: Absolutely, let's go for it. Thank you.   0:00:21.5 Andrew: I'm excited. Well, let me introduce you to the audience. Mustafa Shraim is an Assistant Professor at Ohio University teaching quality management and leadership. Professor Shraim has over 20 years of experience as a quality engineer, corporate quality manager, and consultant. His PhD is in Industrial Engineering. He publishes widely, and he has a passion for Dr. Deming's system of profound knowledge. Mustafa, why don't we start off by you telling us the story about how you first came to learn of the teachings of Dr. Deming and what hooked you in?   0:00:57.5 Mustafa: Yeah. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you for inviting me back. So...   0:01:01.9 Andrew: Yeah.   [chuckle]   0:01:06.1 Mustafa: The whole thing started when I was doing my master's and that was the late '80s, at Ohio University, and I was concentrating on the area of quality. So, I was doing research, and my research touched up on what Dr. Deming was doing. I was doing it in design of experiments and quality tools and things like that. But of course, you come across Dr. Deming's work when you talk about quality control, in general, and statistical quality. So, that was the first encounter of learning about what Dr. Deming did in Japan and how he used statistical process control and things of that nature to teach how you can improve your processes, your products, and later on, the management. But at the beginning, I did not really get into his management philosophy so I was more on the technical end of Dr. Deming's teaching which was mainly quality control and SPC, and just improving quality in general.   0:02:24.1 Mustafa: So, as I went... So I went, and I started my first job as a quality engineer, and quickly after that, maybe after one year, I moved to another company, and I became a statistical quality engineer, and I was doing... I was a part of a training program there. I was doing training on SPC as a part of a training for employees at that company. It was a union shop, it was automotive, and so we utilized statistical process control and what Dr. Deming was teaching. So, that was the beginning of it, but later on in the '90s, I started learning more about Dr. Deming after I read "Out of the Crisis" and then "The New Economics" about his management method. In fact, his management methods just captured me. I knew I got hooked on the quality part first, but the management method just brought it together for me. And since then, I've been reading and practicing, trying to at least, what Dr. Deming has taught.   0:03:41.9 Andrew: And would you say... One of the things that I started realizing was that the statistical... What I thought was the end was the statistical tools. And what I started to learn is that, actually, the statistical tools start to have limitations if you're not doing the management of the whole operation in a good way. And I think that that's something that really resonated with me when I started putting the pieces together. How do you see the role... And in a little bit I'm gonna ask you about some more specific tools, but just generally, we have statistical tools, but we also have management. Many people may think that you can just apply statistical tools and solve all the problems, but I'm curious how you see that interaction between the tools and the management style.   0:04:30.2 Mustafa: Well, as you know and many, probably, of your listeners already know that Dr. Deming had understanding variation, or some variation, as a part of his system of profound knowledge. So, understanding variation, under it, is really learning how to distinguish between the types of variation that you would have in any situation, managerial or process situation. So, that interaction there is really big. That really captured me because what Dr. Deming says is like, more than 80% of the application for statistical process control is actually, should be in management, and not necessarily just on the line, controlling quality of the product. So that was... It captured me, and because of explaining how many managers, many supervisors, don't understand the difference between common cause and special cause variations, and they start managing people with common cause variation going up and down, and they reprimand if it goes down, and they praise if it goes up, and that actually just makes things even worse in the future. As you probably know, it's tampering with the process.   0:06:08.8 Andrew: The best way that I've ever come up to try to explain this is to say to people, "Imagine there's 10,000 people in a stadium. They all flip a coin, and you say, 'Hey, if you flip heads, go to one side of the stadium. You flip tails, you go to the other. Everybody sit down. Okay, now... '" Or basically say, "Flip the coin again, and if you flip heads again, so two times, stay standing. And if you flip tails two times, then stay standing, but if you hit the heads and tails, then sit down." And now, your audience is getting smaller and smaller. If you do this 10 times, you will have 10 people, generally, you're gonna have 10 people that have flipped heads consecutively 10 times, and people that flip tails consecutively 10 times.   0:06:54.1 Andrew: And if we said, if we started off the whole game by saying, "Tails is bad." Now you've got some people that have done bad 10 times in a row, and some people that have done good 10 times in a row. But we know, because of the design of that example, that it's purely random. So, the question... So, we can understand that, but when we think about random variation, what Dr. Deming started to do is show us how that fits into management and psychology and how we're missing that. I'm just curious if you can help us to understand how that variation fits into that management 'cause you started talking about rewarding and all that. So, just curious about how those things fit together.   0:07:38.7 Mustafa: Right. For example, within the control limits, and those are the limits that are on a control chart, and they are spaced three standard deviations up and three standard deviations down. All the variation within is mostly a common cause variation, and it's due to the system. It's a system variation. It's not attributed to any special cause whether it's operator or something else that changed. So, distinguishing between the two becomes very important because if you don't look at variation from the perspective of a control chart, what happens is that you are in the weeds, and you look at every point as either really high up or high down cause you don't have any perspective as to how to evaluate or filter this type of variation. On the other side, also you don't want to not react to something that is special. For example, if you don't have the control limits, and if you don't have a proper way of looking at the variation, then you might end up also passing a special cause as a common cause, or not reacting to it enough to fix it and to make it a part of your controllable system before moving on.   0:09:16.7 Mustafa: From both perspective, I think it's very important for managers, for leadership, to understand why we do this. It's not just something that you have to do on the production line. It is something that you have to do in management based on performance. Look at your data and see if it's a stable process in control or if it's not, then you need to start eliminating those special causes. Like Dr. Deming said that, "Nothing really is born perfect as far as the processes." I'm paraphrasing here. But when you start a new manufacturing process, it doesn't mean that it's going to be in control; you have to work at it. You have to eliminate one by one all these special causes that come up before you start seeing a stability. And then after stability, then you will be able to work on the system part of the process, which is a long-term continuous improvement projects.   0:10:29.9 Andrew: Yeah, it's interesting. I remember a story. When I was working at Pepsi, we had a bottling plant in Los Angeles that I worked at. And the management were putting pressure on the people that were running the bottling machine because the variation of the level of the liquid in the bottle was getting wider and wider. And so, as a supervisor on the factory floor, my job was to go and kick ass, basically, and tell the guy, "Hey, come on, what are you doing here? You're messing around." And he just said, "Look, Andrew," and I was a young guy who listened to what these guys said, and he said, "Look, look at that machine over there. They spent the money to buy that filling machine over there, and you see there's no variation. Look at the old machine that they've got, and they haven't bought the parts to repair it. I keep telling them, if they don't buy these parts, I can't get to that point." And he was like... And I realized at that point that it was a management decision that needed to be made to reduce that variation at that point. It wasn't an operator that we should be punishing for that. And I think I wasn't that popular bringing that information back to management 'cause they wanted to say, "Well, no. It's the worker," and that's where I started to think about that common cause variation, and how do you improve and reduce variation?   0:11:48.3 Mustafa: Right, right. And if you leave it also to the worker, sometimes if they don't know what to do, they start tampering with the, actually, production process, and it makes it worse. So, a training for them on variation is also important. It's not only for management but also for workers as well.   0:12:08.2 Andrew: Yeah, good point. I know your expertise in this area is so valuable, and I think that it's great to have you maybe break down the following four terms that we hear, and maybe just generally discuss the differences, and then we'll talk about them in more detail. But the first term is Lean or continuous flow, the second is Six Sigma, the third is 14 points, and the fourth is system of profound knowledge. So, maybe just give an overview. What are these things? What do they mean?   0:12:40.0 Mustafa: Okay. Well, the Six Sigma part came about in the mid '80s and started in Motorola, and a lot of people already know that. And the reason it came out is because Dr. Deming's contribution in the '80s just brought a lot of attention to variation. In addition, you have also some big issues like the Ford transmission issue that came up. And there was a study about variation, and so there was a lot of attention being focused on variation. So Motorola... Somebody at Motorola, Bill Smith, an engineer over there, actually, came up with this idea of Six Sigma. And what that means, in general, is that if you have a spec that is a certain width, like upper and lower spec limits, then you want your process to operate in about half that space. Basically, that gives you good capability of the process, and then you don't have to worry about it. The first problem that came about from Six Sigma was the controversy about the shift. The people who invented Six Sigma, or packaged it together, said, "Okay. Well, we know you wanna operate exactly in the middle, but, normally, processes shift like one-and-a-half standard deviation here, or one-and-a-half standard deviation there so we want to allow that."   0:14:18.7 Mustafa: So, that is one of the biggest controversy because when you shift something like that, the process may be out of control without knowing. So, they did not really take that into consideration, although they are teaching control charts within the Six Sigma body of knowledge, so that was not really taken care of there. But that was one of the flaws that is out there in Six Sigma. Now, there are topics in Six Sigma that are... They're okay. We can teach certain topics on continuous improvement, root cause analysis, things of that nature. But the statistical thing here was wrong. And again, the reason Six Sigma was popular is because it is packaged the way it was packaged. You have companies buying this, and you have all the titles that came with it, and you know how companies love titles, especially here in the United States. So, you got all the belts; everybody must have a belt. You gotta go through training, you gotta... And then after you get your belt, what happens? You're gonna save us money. You're gonna have to do projects, and your job is to save me 20, 30, 40, 50,000 or 100,000 sometimes. So, that was the Six Sigma part of the whole thing.   0:15:51.6 Mustafa: And so, the Lean later became Lean Six Sigma. But Lean, by itself, came from Japan, originally. It's eliminating waste. Think about things like over-production, waiting, inventory, extra motion, all of these little things that you think they're little, but when you put them together, that's a lot of waste. So, to make the process flow better, you need to eliminate all of this waste. It's more about productivity and moving things faster within the organization. Then, when we contrast that with the 14 points, the 14 points are the system for management. It's all about... It's about management. It's also about quality, like improving forever the processes and systems for example, and have a constancy of purpose like the first point says. This was the application of what then became the system of profound knowledge as we know it. I don't know... I don't wanna go too far with definitions and things like that, but the Lean Six Sigma, they had the problem of the statistical flow from the Six Sigma part, and then you have all the management by numbers, management by objectives from both the Lean and Six Sigma.   0:17:30.3 Andrew: And I'm gonna try to summarize what you just explained by talking about the Six Sigma. Is what you're saying the flaw or the issue was is that, in order to try to get good quality, why don't we just set our expectations of what we're gonna get out of the system so tight that when we actually produce, we're in a narrow range, but we're never... Let's say we don't allow... We built the system with so much margin of error that even if we move around in our output, that that still is within a very tight range. Is that the concept?   0:18:10.5 Mustafa: Yeah. That is the concept. But the problem with that concept is, if you move around, if you let the process move around one-and-a-half standard deviation, for example, which, what it says, this indicates that you could have special causes that you don't react to. You don't know at that point because you have moved the process. You end up having special cause variation based on that shift because that shift could be real, a special cause and not just allowing natural... Naturally, the process does not move one-and-a-half standard deviation   0:18:53.0 Mustafa: all of a sudden because there are tests on control charts that if the process... For shift. So, if the process, for example, gives you nine points in a row on one side of the center line, that's a flag because that's a shift. That's a shift in the process. Now the process shifted on you, and you're not reacting. You're not doing anything about it, so you have to stop and take a look at it. So, what Six Sigma is saying is, "Yeah, the process could shift one-and-a-half standard deviation." But in statistical process control terms, it can't without reacting to it.   0:19:37.5 Andrew: And a simple control chart, or run chart, will probably reveal this better than looking at a histogram type of chart, like a Six Sigma type of chart where you're observing the output of the system moment by moment. Would that be correct to say?   0:19:56.5 Mustafa: Right, right. So, the control chart... And I did a paper... And there are people that are out there and doing the same thing. I did a paper and showed that if you move the system one-and-a-half standard deviation, you will see all these points beyond the control limits by simulation, simulation of the process. You move it, and you'll start observing so many points being out of the control. And so, if you allow it, then all of a sudden you start seeing all these points beyond the control. And what do you do? So, there is nothing to cover that within the Six Sigma body of knowledge.   0:20:40.7 Andrew: And maybe it's a good point just to talk briefly about the control charts and what Dr. Deming taught about that. I think when I started seeing the control charts as he was describing them, I started to see a real intense focus on looking at... at trying to understand what's really happening with this system and trying to observe it in real-time. And the more that you did that, the more you really start to understand what's driving the performance of that system. So, maybe could you just take a moment, think about the listener or the viewer that doesn't understand the control charts yet, maybe just give a big picture about what those are, and what's the value of them?   0:21:27.7 Mustafa: So, the control chart is basically... If you think about plotting points over time, that would be a run chart. So, just looking at your performance over time and just plotting points, that's a run chart. A control chart is basically taking the run chart and creating control limits on it. And the control limits came from Dr. Shewhart who invented the control charts. And he put those control limits to minimize a couple of mistakes: not reacting enough when you have to, and not over-reacting when you see something. They were more economics. They were not statistical in nature. They don't really depend on statistical distribution or anything like that. They are very robust. They can be used in a variety of applications without having to look at the distribution of the data. And they tell you when to react to a special cause and when to leave the process alone.   0:22:41.3 Mustafa: So, when you leave the process alone, it means that you have common cause variation, just the systemic type of variation that occurs over time. But that doesn't mean that you don't work on it as management. This is a management part of the work. So, when you have a stable process, it means that this is a time for management to initiate, maybe, continuous improvement project or initiative to reduce that variation, and not... Because you can be stable and in control, but you still have a lot of variation in the process. So, the spread is very wide in the process or, in the control chart, it will be going all over with a lot of variation, but it's still within the control limits. It could have this kind of scenario. And that's when management has to step in and say, "Okay, we need to look at this from a big picture and try to look at all the causes and do some kind of continual improvement."   0:23:53.3 Andrew: Mustafa, I would think that when you look at it, it turns out that it's like a continuous experiment. And you're looking at the outcome in a control chart, and you're trying to think, "Okay, if we... " Let's just say that we add a new piece of machinery. We upgrade a particular part. Then we look and say, "Okay, how did that impact the output of the process?" And then you start to see that what you're talking about, and I think what Dr. Deming is talking about was the idea that, start to get this intense focus on how do we improve this process? And how do we reduce that variation to a point? There's no point in reducing it beyond a certain point. But just that focus. Whereas with Six Sigma, it's kind of a theoretical thing, and there's other aspects that you've talked about. But just that, a control chart really allows you just to focus on testing and understanding that the whole... The output is a function, not only of the people on the production line. Let's say if it's in a factory, and it's the machinery, it's the way you organize, it's the shifts that you work. It's all of these things. So, I can't help but think that it's kind of like the fun of testing and seeing the result coming out of it.   0:25:09.1 Mustafa: Right. When you say a special cause, it doesn't mean always that it's bad. It could be good. But you have to study it, and you have to see what happened. So, was it intentional? Was it unintentional? But at least you would stop and look and study. And that's the idea. It's not just to let it go without studying it. On the other hand, the common cause, you're just looking at the width of the variation in general. And you try to reduce that, like you just mentioned, over the long run.   0:25:42.0 Andrew: So... Go ahead.   0:25:44.8 Mustafa: No, I was just gonna go back to Dr. Deming before I move to Dr. Deming's chain reaction model. I use that all the time. I use it when I was doing workshops in industry, and I use it now in my classes. And I put that... The chain reaction model. And what the chain reaction model for those of the listeners who are not familiar with it, Dr. Deming says that, "You have to start with improving quality, and the rest is just a chain reaction." So what happens is, when you improve quality, and that is, and what he's talking about here, is a commitment by management to quality. It's not just a one-time improvement of quality, it's a commitment on improving quality. Then you start seeing defect decreasing. You start utilizing equipment better. Errors decrease and all of this becomes much less. Your productivity, as a result, goes up because the cost is down, or your input cost is down so now your output is better, and you have a good productivity which keeps you in business, and you provide better jobs to your community. I think...   0:27:18.8 Andrew: That topic is so interesting because I think most people, at the time of Dr. Deming and even now, think quality is a department; quality is something we apply in a certain area. And when you think about setting the purpose of a company to improve quality, it's a very risky thing. Most people think, "No way. Our company is about sales. Our company is about profit. Our company is about customer satisfaction," or whatever that is. Those things all are the intuitive things that we come up with to say, "That's what drives our business." And Dr. Deming, what you're saying is that... Dr. Deming says, actually, the chain reaction that starts from quality leads to all of those things. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?   0:28:07.5 Mustafa: Right. So, we know that we have to start on quality. But take, for example, companies that are engaged in Lean projects. So, what they do in Lean projects, you try to eliminate waste. And eliminating waste could also be a risky business if you just arbitrarily start cutting costs of material, of employee hours, or eliminating jobs, for example. If you take it from the productivity block of the chain reaction model, you go nowhere. You gotta go back from the quality, improving quality, and that's where the chain reaction starts. But for many Lean projects, they actually start from the productivity block. So, improve productivity from the productivity block, that doesn't really work because you are not committed to quality at that point. So, what happens is, you start maybe buying cheaper material or eliminating jobs. That might help you in the short run. The short run may be the next quarter. It's going to help you out. You're gonna improve the bottomline. Later on, all of this is going to come back as customer complaints, returns, issues with employees, lack of motivation because now they have to do more with less hours, and so on and so forth. But it creates a whole set of problems that are addressed in the system of profound knowledge from the psychology part to the learning part, and knowledge and the PDSA.   0:30:00.4 Andrew: So, let's go back to then now. I wanna talk about the system of profound knowledge so that the listeners out there, some of them understand it very well, but some of them may not understand what that means at all. So, now we've kind of been through a little bit about Lean. We've been through Six Sigma. We talked a little bit about the 14 points, and I think the point that you're just making is that when you look at Dr. Deming's 14 point, first one is create constancy of purpose. The second one is to adopt a new philosophy, and the third one is to end dependence on quality inspections. It's like those top three are telling the senior management, "Your job is to improve quality." That is what's going to lead this chain reaction. And I think you've illustrated that in your discussion really well. So, take a moment and tell us about system of profound knowledge as you see it.   0:30:49.8 Mustafa: Okay. So, the system of profound knowledge is... There are four pillars or four components to it. And the first one is appreciation for a system, meaning that you have to see systems in place. You have to do a connection of different parts together, that you cannot do things in silos. You cannot suboptimize. You have to look at the aim of the system, and you try to work for the aim of the system, not the aim of each department. But with that comes the idea of creating the variation part, and what is systemic variation and what is a special cause variation? Systemic variation is a part of management's decisions. They have to make improvement on that in the long term. And how you react to variation. So, if the system has a certain capability, and then you ask somebody, "Okay, I want you to get me that which is up here, way up. That's your objective." If the system is not capable, what is the employee going to do? They're going to try to create that number to please the boss. As Dr. Deming was referring to, they tried to please their manager or the boss. So, you might take risky steps to do that, including maybe fudging numbers or coming up with ideas to create that number.   0:32:37.1 Mustafa: And that goes to psychology, so now you are... You don't feel good about it. You have to keep your job. You have to do all kinds of stuff to make sure that you don't lose your job because you could not achieve that. Now you become less motivated. You're not really engaged. And what happens? They provide you with incentives, outside incentives. Bonus is based on work that you have to do, but the system is incapable. You cannot perform beyond what the system is capable of. So, that creates all kinds of problems. And the last part is the learning part or theory of knowledge, and that you have to have a method. You have to have clear definitions and, basically, you have to know what you need to accomplish, and by what method and how you know when you get there. That's a theory of knowledge. There is no knowledge without a theory, and it has to be... It has a temporal element in it, meaning that you revise the theory, and you create more knowledge. So, that's in a nutshell how you... How all of these components are related to each other. But to me, the systems and variation, they're just out there, and I see it everywhere as a problem.   0:34:14.3 Andrew: Yeah. So, to summarize, the system of profound knowledge, as you've explained, is appreciation for a system. Number two is knowledge of variation, number three is a theory of knowledge, and number four is psychology. And one of the things that I came to learn about Dr. Deming is, I always say he's a humanist. He's a person that really sees that people should have joy in work, and he wants to see people reach their full potential, and he understood the powers of incentives like you just explained. So, now that we understand a little bit of the theory of the system of profound knowledge, what is going wrong out there in this world? Let's talk just briefly about, why is this so significant? Come on, I just go get my black belt in Lean Six Sigma and the problems will be solved, but what is it about the theory of profound knowledge that... Or the system of profound knowledge that people should pay attention to now?   0:35:21.5 Mustafa: Well, with... For example, let me just take it from a different perspective. If you look at Lean projects, and you eliminate. for example, waste. if you don't have a system of profound knowledge to check all of the things that needs to be checked, like variation and psychology and making sure that people are not fearful to do their job, then you're creating other problems, not only just... You're not just reducing waste, you are actually, maybe having... overburdening the employees with removing waste because when you remove waste, you may be removing jobs, you may be removing hours, you may be removing employees. That would create a overburden. You could also create problems for the customers and fluctuation and defects and variation.   0:36:21.8 Mustafa: That's why the system of profound knowledge is an integrated system. It's not a just one piece. Once you start going from one door, you gotta address all the other components that are tied together to it. So to me, from whatever door you go in in the system of profound knowledge, let's say you go from the psychology which is you drive out fear. You create a good climate. You do all of these things, then you start seeing people coming up with innovations, reducing variation, and working together collaboratively which creates a good system. So, whatever door you go in, you're going to get to it because they are connected. There is no way that you're not going to address the other points if you have knowledge about the other points.   0:37:15.0 Andrew: It's an interesting thing that I would say in modern management, in modern life, people are trying to compartmentalize things and thinking that being a specialist in a particular area, whether that's medicine or whatever in business, that by compartmentalizing, it gives us comfort that we can become an expert in this area and all that. But what you can see... And I'll tell you, Mustafa, about my mother who I take care of. She's 83. And if we have a problem with her foot, the doctor may say, "Okay, don't walk for a little while." Well, that causes another problem. You start to risk bedsores. You start to have problems with GI system. And what you find nowadays in medicine is it's getting more and more narrow where doctors are not seeing the holistic pieces, and I see myself always constantly thinking about the whole picture to that. And I think what I'm hearing from you is that, that we should be looking at things more holistically, and that's what the system of profound knowledge is teaching, is that... Would you say that?   0:38:24.1 Mustafa: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, you have to... The main thing there is, companies, traditionally, they try to just suboptimize through their management by objective, "We want each department to save so much money," and then, once they start doing that, everybody affects the other negatively, but they don't know until later on that they have done that. You might gain the objectives in the short run, but in the long run, it's going to be disastrous for the aim of the organization.   0:39:03.9 Andrew: So, you just raised another point that Dr. Deming teaches about is suboptimization. And what he tried to teach was that the objective of the senior management of the company is to optimize the system, not its component parts. Have you seen...   0:39:19.9 Mustafa: Right.   0:39:20.9 Andrew: In theory, people should know that, but how is that going wrong in this world these days? And why is it important to be thinking in this holistic way that Dr. Deming was teaching?   0:39:32.5 Mustafa: Because companies, if they don't do things systematically, and they don't apply the whole system of profound knowledge, altogether, they're going to rush into money-saving exercises, and those money-saving exercises could be replacing material with lower-grade material. It could be, maybe, not hiring experts and hiring somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, and not providing training, or cutting training, or foregoing maintenance. There are so many things that you can start focusing on because you have issues. So, you have issues with a customer, and you start focusing on cutting costs, arbitrarily, not with a method, arbitrarily starting cutting costs in different departments. When you put it all together, just things don't merge well together because you're trying to suboptimize. You're trying to lower the cost in each department and not really improve the aim, or attain the aim of the organization as a whole.   0:40:48.3 Andrew: We've covered so many different topics. It's pretty exciting, like this sub-optimization. I think is a really interesting one. And I wanna raise a new topic that is the opposite of one of the topics that you raised. You talked about the chain reaction. Let's talk about the opposite chain reaction. I'll tell you a story in my own coffee business. We had put some pressure on some of the people in the procurement part of the business to reduce cost. That's reasonable. Management wants to reduce cost so there we go. We put pressure on them, and we told them... We incentivized them. And what we saw was that they ended up proposing a lower quality coffee bean, green coffee bean. The production people didn't like it because all of a sudden they had to recalibrate the machines. So, there was already a cost right there because the... It was harder to hit the client's demand of what taste that they want, consistently hit it.   0:41:47.9 Andrew: Then the people that were delivering, when we delivered the product to the customer, we had some returns where the customer is like, "No, I don't like this taste," or that we would have much more variability. And all of a sudden, we had customer complaints. And then we started to realize that, "Okay, now we gotta go and replace that with the proper stuff," and then all of a sudden there was all kinds of cost. So, the chain reaction you talked about was, start with quality and you start to reduce costs throughout the chain. And a reverse chain reaction is when you start by trying to optimize one point and not realize that it's a whole system, and therefore what you've caused is a negative chain reaction of cost just when you thought you were cutting costs, you're actually raising costs.   0:42:33.7 Mustafa: Right. That is a great example of that because what you've done is maybe just looking at the productivity part, you wanted to make sure that the costs were down so trying to turn the knobs on certain things, and then it just backfired on the quality part, increasing errors, increasing customer dissatisfaction and all of that, and that happens all the time.   0:43:01.4 Andrew: And that's what Dr. Deming says, "How can you measure the cost of a lost customer? How can you measure the dissatisfaction and the frustration?" Some things are just unmeasurable. So, I wanna...   0:43:15.2 Mustafa: Right. So, that brings about the issue of visible figures. You're managed by visible figures only, and not really the stuff that are behind the total cost, which some of it is unknowable or unknown.   0:43:34.2 Andrew: Now, Professor, this is really strange. Here we are, talking about quality. You're such an expert in all of these statistical methods, and now you're saying, "Wait a minute, you can't just measure by visible figures." So, this is again a paradox of Dr. Deming where you come into his teaching, seeing all of these numbers and all that, and now what you're telling me is it's not just visible figures. Could you just elaborate on that?   0:44:02.7 Mustafa: Yeah, absolutely. Visible figures are figures that are available right there for you, and you just react to it. If things go up, you wanna reduce costs. You just take action. But visible figures are really a limited part of the whole story because the total cost of not doing things right or not following the Deming management method. They're not going to be... You're not gonna see them until later on. You may be able save for a quarter or two but, beyond that, things are going to start accumulating in terms of defects, returns, and things of that nature. So, from the Deming point of view, the visible figures are only a smaller portion of the total figures which cannot be measured at the time you're looking at the numbers and taking action.   0:45:04.3 Andrew: It's interesting because we hear sayings like, "What gets measured gets managed," and those types of sayings. And one of the things that I... When I teach young people about this, I oftentimes say, "Well, let's just look at a simple thing. What is the value of a hug? Measure it." It's immeasurable. Particularly, in a particular situation when someone is traumatized, or in a really painful situation, and that hug made a huge difference in their life that could actually have kept them alive and led them to another so that... I think that's the visible figures that you're raising. It's such a small part of this world. The bigger part is how it all fits together. And so, I think you really inspire me to rethink about this concept; that it's way beyond just visible figures.   0:46:03.5 Mustafa: Absolutely, absolutely. This thing is just... One of the things that really captured me with the Deming philosophy is visible versus invisible figures, and the sub-optimization part versus the aim of the system. And those things are just so powerful when you think about them, when you think about why we're promoting, or why we're talking about Deming, and why now and all of that. It's these things that are very common these days. And they have... To have a good system, to have good management, you have to eliminate management by visible figures on... You still have to have visible figures, but visible figures-only is what Deming is... What it was Deming opposing. What he was against, I guess.   0:46:57.8 Andrew: Yup. And you said, "Why Deming? Why now?" And I'm thinking about it myself. And my answer to that is that we have a whole generation of young people who think that successful management is, maybe, sitting at their desk behind a computer looking at KPIs. And then, when someone is down on their KPI, send them an email, kick their butt. And when someone is up on a KPI, give them a bonus, and that's it. And then you go home at the end of the day. And they're so lacking in the psychology aspect of the system of profound knowledge, but just in what management truly is. So, from my perspective, "Why Deming? Why now?" is because we have the risk of it turning into some kind of automation system of management that will always end up underperforming. Why would you say, "Why Deming? Why now?"   0:48:00.5 Mustafa: So, as you can see that, for me, "Why Deming? Why now?" is I don't see management using variation as a way to distinguish between the common cause and special cause, and also their reaction to it, or the mistakes that they make as a part of it. So, that's a big thing. The other thing is the fear that people are experiencing at the workplace. Recently, we've heard about the great resignation. People just don't wanna go back to work anymore. And a lot of people expressed that they just don't like the environment that they work in. And we know that most people, about 70% of people who quit, they don't quit because of a pay or anything like that. It's because of relationship with their bosses and the company, and they just don't feel that. So that the environment has a fear in it. So, when you create fear, you're not going to have people that contribute and collaborate, and I think that's big. If we learn anything from this whole pandemic, it is that you have to create an environment of trust because if people are away working virtually or work in the office, you shouldn't have to worry about them if you have created that environment or the trust.   0:49:34.6 Andrew: Yup. And you mentioned about the pandemic. If there's one thing we've learned, fear is a massive motivator. The level of things that people have gone through in a state of fear, things that people would have never imagined that they would have done. And so, I think what you're talking about is just one more of the many Deming principles, which is to drive out fear. And I just wanna summarize some of what we've gone through, and then we'll wrap up. So, we've talked about the differences between Lean and Six Sigma and Lean Six Sigma. We've talked about Deming's 14 points. We've talked about the system of profound knowledge. We've talked about optimizing versus sub-optimizing. We've talked about the chain reaction, and I gave the example of a reverse chain reaction. And then, we talked about visible figures and understanding that there's much more than that, which is such a paradox for me when I first started learning Deming's teaching because I thought I was gonna take comfort in those numbers and the visible figures, but he told me, "No, no, no. There's much more." And finally, we talk about fear. Is there anything else that you would add to this final wrap-up of the conversation?   0:50:52.3 Mustafa: So, we started talking about Lean and Six Sigma and... Six Sigma is a continuous improvement process, but you don't really need to use it to... You can use the Plan-Do-Study-Act to it. There is no problem if you use it, and you recognize what's wrong with it, and you try to fix it. There's no problem with that. But, I think the Plan-Do-Study-Act and the theory of knowledge is sufficient for you to start working on things. But, like I mentioned, some companies, they like the titles and the tags and the big investment because then they use that as a motivator to get people to start working on projects to bring money back, to save the company the money that was spent on them. So, that's the only thing I wanted to add is just like you can't just rely on something that is big. The Plan-Do-Study-Act was good enough, and I think it's good for any organization. The problem with applying the Plan-Do-Study Act is that you have to have management's commitment because remember, when you do Six Sigma, you're basically outsourcing your quality to an external source, providing the training, the titles and all of that. You can cut it off any time. But when you do the theory of knowledge and the Plan-Do-Study-Act, you have to commit. The commitment is really the big deal here, or the component that is missing is a commitment to quality.   0:52:44.9 Andrew: Well, in wrapping this up, I wanna come back to where we started. Where we started was you were a young master's student and coming out of studying about these tools of statistical methods and all of that stuff, and you entered into our conversation, and you entered into the introduction to Dr. Deming through these tools. But here we are at the end of this interview, and now you're talking about such much bigger issues, and I think, for me, that inspires me about what Dr. Deming has taught because it is expansive. And the more you study it, the more you see it's way beyond just tools. So, Mustafa, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for coming on the show and sharing your experience with Dr. Deming's teachings. Do you have any parting words for the audience?   0:53:41.5 Mustafa: All I have to say, you gotta get started somewhere, and the system of profound knowledge is it. So, I would definitely recommend... I have been through many of the seminars that the Institute offers, and I would highly recommend that and also getting Dr. Deming's book "The New Economics." That's a good start. Of course, the follow-up is also just as important and continuing with the journey.   0:54:15.7 Andrew: Well, great advice. Get "The New Economics;" read it. It really sums up a lot of Dr. Deming's teachings. He put it together right at the end of his life. And that concludes another great discussion within our worldwide Deming community. Remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I will leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, "People are entitled to joy in work."

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's Pride Month which is celebrated by many in the LGBTQ community. This is also the month that the House Jan 6 Committee is presenting its case against former President Trump; so far, the celebration of Pride Month, though risqué in some cities, is proving to be more entertaining than the committee hearings...

After Dark with Hosts Rob & Andrew – It's Pride Month which is celebrated by many in the LGBTQ community. This is also the month that the House Jan 6 Committee is presenting its case against former President Trump; so far, the celebration of Pride Month, though risqué in some cities, is proving to be more entertaining than the committee hearings...

Theme: Legislating NFTs New proposal released this week from Senators Gillibrand and Lummis Most crypto products would be treated as commodities, not securities NFTs are a new asset class, with further clarification to come no taxes on crypto transactions under $200 Affordable project: https://www.degenlabz.xyz/ - Block_Bounce https://opensea.io/collection/dgnkdz    NFT NewsRantum NFT Market Data,  Cryptoslam.io NFT Headlines: Crypto Legislation Is Coming Altcoin Buzz  Bitcoin miners urge New York's governor to veto moratorium passed by the Senate  Bored Ape Co-Founder Blames Discord After A 200 ETH Security Breach  Forget the Crypto Slump -- Pace is Furthering its Web3 Ambitions by Partnering with NFT Platform Art Blocks  Ethereum's Ropsten proof-of-stake 'test merge' goes live    Transcript:   [00:00:00] George: Today on all about affordable NFCS we're talking about legislating, non fungible tokens. There may be actual, real semi coherent policy making its way through the bowels of our government, which we can cover the high notes and share with that. But first, Andrew, how's it going? Anything new in the wallet? [00:00:24] Andrew: Oh, new and the wallet. Uh, man, I wasn't actually ready for that. I did pick up, uh, our blocks most recent. Um, it was recent curated piece. Uh, most our curated collection as a collection of 500 a day picked up one of those and luckily was able or picked up two of them was luckily, luckily lucky in my, uh, mince and got one re uh, rare gold one in there. [00:00:47] So I was happy with that. Um, kind of a cool piece that it, uh, They all generate noise from them. And it's a, there's a digital piece to it, but it doesn't actually loop. So it's, it's interesting. They're not, um, on the surface as just individual pieces, they don't look all that interesting. But we, when you dive into it a bit more, it's, uh, there's more going on there. [00:01:08] So how about you, you pick up anything. [00:01:10] George: Well, a couple of our projects, which I'll disclose, uh, a couple of deejaying kids and a admitted, uh, and to start Tosha, which may come up as a future project, but I have disclosed it and we shared it in our discord. I also, for whatever reason, I can't, I can't say no to two breeding horses. I got a couple, I got a couple of mayors that are just fantastic horses and I just keep breeding. [00:01:32] I'm not sure why [00:01:34] Andrew: you got to do [00:01:34] George: not even, I'm not even naming them yet. [00:01:36] Andrew: you gotta click buttons. You gotta put transactions on that chain. It's just, uh, it's, it's addicting. You can't get away from it. So even in a bear market, you gotta find something to do, right. [00:01:47] George: Yeah. I want to be clear there's there's no, there's no window to profitability. Unless one of them ends up being like the next, the next great hype, um, which from a probabilistic standpoint is a low breed, decent horses, but it's been rough and the old pony game anyway, let's uh, what's going on in the news. [00:02:04] Andrew: Yeah, well, you know, it's been, been awfully quiet out there for them in terms of trading overall volume has been low, but we do have big news. As you mentioned, we've got. Uh, some legislation that was proposed this week, a bipartisan bill coming from senators, Gillibrand in littleness. Um, so we will get into some of the details of that later, but it is, um, it is nice to see that there's something going on here. [00:02:29] Um, General. It was one of the big things. So for NFTs is that we're going to seem to need to wait and see how these, uh, how inept use will be, will be treated, what they are looking at, creating a new asset asset class for NFTs. So that is that's interesting, you know, we don't know what that means quite yet, but it does mean that there's not really something out there that seems to be a good fit for what NFTs are. [00:02:54] And I would tend to agree with that. [00:02:56] George: Yeah. Well, we currently have is not working so hope. Hopefully there is some intelligence coming. [00:03:06] Andrew: We'll get more into that later on. Um, so another bit of, uh, sort of legislative news here. Was it New York? The state, just a, um, they passed eight are they let's see, they are going to continue. Putting him with a moratorium on against big claim of minded usage in the state. They will not allow Bitcoin mining in the state. [00:03:30] So I, I do find this interesting. I don't see many other, uh, technologies or use cases of electricity that are generally, uh, forbidden. there being other reasons that they're breaking the law. So, um, this is interesting, you know, we'll see, you know, I'm sure that there are what we've already seen, that there are other states that are quite welcoming to, uh, to minors. [00:03:54] Um, but you know, that's also quite a change at some point to at least for, for the Ethereum mining world. So, um, interesting. That this has happened. I think this may, you know, we'll start to see, we've talked about this, how it just becoming a bigger political issue. I think that crypto will become a bigger issue as we go here. [00:04:14] George: Yeah. In general, when you find yourself limiting the freedoms of what Americans can do with public utilities that they pay for, um, Americans don't tend to. It's not a thing. They, uh, they really rally behind. [00:04:26] Andrew: No. Oh, and it would not be a podcast episode without talking about a scan and of course, board apes. And I don't mean that those always go together, but we do see a lot. We do see a lot in this time was it was a 200. Security breach after someone gained access to their discord, posted a link for minting, some sort of new project. [00:04:49] Of course, people Abe right into that, uh, before verifying if it was a legit link or not was not spent 208th. So, um, one of the board, eight founders after this came out and blamed discord security on this, you know, at seams. Uh, I don't know. It seems like board the board ape or the Yugo labs team seems always seems very quick to point the finger at someone else when something goes wrong. [00:05:18] A lot of other projects have had these issues happen and they take responsibility and deal with it. And you know, it's certainly not the first discord scam that we see not going to be the last and it's not unique to subordinate. [00:05:33] George: So for those of you keeping track, it was a theories fault that they duffed the mint and there were problems there. So they're gonna build their own layer. Uh, it was probably Facebook's fault when their Instagram got hacked and people got stolen. It's now discourse all that. They lost their passwords and password management for it. [00:05:53] So right now, just to keep telly at home on their to-do list is build their own layer. One, build their own massive photo sharing website and mobile app to compete and basically fix what's wrong with Instagram and all. Recreate discord, a, a massive online community for secure, uh, conversations in groups. [00:06:13] I feel like they got a great roadmap here. [00:06:16] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think I've seen this playbook before, you know, startups that just decide that they can take on everything in the world because one thing's going well, it's it usually works out quite well. Right. Is that, is that true or do they [00:06:30] George: I never read to the end. [00:06:31] of any story or book. So I'm always on the, like the heroes rise and never get to the conclusion of anything. So I see nothing wrong with this pattern of behavior. [00:06:41] Andrew: good. Yeah. All right. Yep. So Turkey's doing well too, right? Never get to the end. What their, [00:06:50] George: No spoilers. [00:06:52] Andrew: all right. So actually I should mention that the board ape community. The, or the dowel or the members of the Dow. So those are eight token holders just voted against the proposal to move to a new chain or to start their own chain, whatever it was, they want to stay on the Ethereum network. It was a relatively close, uh, vote. [00:07:14] I think it was about. I came on 55, 50 7%, uh, against moving off of a theory them. So there were a couple of large holders. I think there was one that actually had about 17% of the votes. So, um, he realized that ha only takes a few holders to, to really swing things there. And, uh, they are staying on Ethereum, which as we've said, I think is the right move. [00:07:34] That's where they got their start and it has helped them immensely. So I think that's good, but you see a large part of the community still wants to leave the network. [00:07:42] All right. Next one here. We've got, uh, pace, uh, the pace, art, art gallery, or art. Uh, what do you call it? That I know the name pays art. Um, but they're partnering with. Um, just ahead of NFP NYC, sounds like they will have a gallery open during the event. Um, so certainly it lends more credibility to, to generative art, uh, such as those that are, uh, produce bone, the art blocks platform [00:08:13] George: Yeah, you love following the, uh, the art box stuff. And, you know, we talked about not NYC. She getting ready for a ride. You punch your ticket yet. [00:08:22] Andrew: going soon, going soon. [00:08:24] George: Nice. [00:08:26] Andrew: And then one more, uh, we mentioned this here, that we've got the Ethereum proof of stake customer has gone live. So what does that mean? It means that one, the first test that they have several test networks of the Ethereum network, the first one for the, the merged. Ben talked about where proof, where a theory that moved from a proof of work to proof of proof of stake network. [00:08:56] Um, the they'll do, I think it's three or four. I think it's three different networks to test this out. The first one's gone live, it seems like it has gone. Uh, there was one little, uh, issue that. Figured out pretty quickly. So that is good news. They'll continue to do some work tests. Sounds like if everything goes well. [00:09:14] Um, if ever as far as testing here that the merge could be live by August. Uh, one of the core developers of Ethereum has said that it would be no later than December, so they are pretty confident or they're very competent that it will come this year. Um, you know, we can talk more about that. We've alluded to, to this in the past, but it will be a big difference for the network as far as for, for, uh, NFT users for collectors. [00:09:40] It shouldn't really make much of a difference in order to make any difference in what we're experiencing or doing on the network, but it will be big for, um, uh, for some of the arguments against NFTs and also for, uh, the scalability of Ethereum in general. [00:09:56] George: Yeah, I think we've put off having a speculation of what this means, because the mergers like this they've mythically talked about it as early as 2017. So, you know, keep that in the back of your mind, but this is a very, very positive, real code, real push and real example of something going well overall, you know, the highlights is that it won't decrease the cost of gas. [00:10:16] So, you know, transferring your NFTs are still going to be ridiculous at the time and wait for gas. It will, I believe increase, uh, the underlying asset for a number of reasons, which means that your. And FTS will, you know, appreciate it, that at that value. Um, and it's a good sign for, for that network and the base hopefully, but who knows? [00:10:40] I feel like we should do an episode on it and just speculate. It's not ready though. I want to wait until like July when it's like more of like a, an incoming thing, [00:10:49] Andrew: it's coming. July. July is around the corner. I mean, here, this, this episode is what we are getting towards. Yeah. We're mid junior. [00:10:58] George: it? A late? Let's wait for a few more tests. Net runs, and then we'll just speculate on, uh, what we think the merge might do to NFTs [00:11:05] Andrew: absolutely. We should. I love to speculate and then be wrong. [00:11:10] George: and then delete. Do you ever go back into the edit it? No, we're too lazy for that. All right. Do we have yes and affordable project. Okay. [00:11:20] Thank you block bounce for sharing this, uh, pretty ridiculous project D Jen's NFT. And you know, I'm not quite sure where to begin other than first off, you have to go to this website, but also like Warren be warned when you do, because it's, um, it's very noisy. [00:11:43] And so with this kids, it's, uh, I have thousands of collection of 5,000 of these things. And I can't even think with this noise, it's a collection of. Yeah, 5,555. The creators are doxed. The actual leader of it is a very, very young, I think they're like 22, but also there's like a web dev involved. There is a marketer involved. [00:12:13] So, you know, you actually know this team. The actual art is pretty simple. I'd say this, you know, comic base, but they're trying to harken back. There's windows themed website and there's like flappy birds on it It's hilarious. It looks like literally like your windows 95 background is so there I'm missing new drops and other pieces around that current floor sits around 0.03 for, uh, owner to item ratio is about 50%. Which is kinda, which is good, you know, in terms of distribution and they have an active discord though. It's a little weird because I'd say that the number of people in this discord is far more than the number of holders. There's always like, all right, they may have juiced, uh, they may have do some numbers, uh, along the way, uh, to have a total number of discord legions at 34,000, but only have 27 holder 2,700 holders means yes, Yeah, they did some, some hacks to get that number, number, number, go up. [00:13:11] Andrew: Yeah, it definitely looks like they've played around with those numbers a bit. I love the love, the website here, windows 95. I actually had clicked off that, came back to it and was trying to figure out what was going on, on where the page went, because there was just all sorts of lines, moving all over my screen and then realized that they built in a screensaver for this site as well. [00:13:33] So it's a, it's a really cool site. I like it. I hadn't heard about this until we were just talking about it right before the show here. So checking it out. I do like the, uh, like the art here. They're all animated little pieces or if they all have an element of animation, um, That is, I don't love when I see the numbers being way off like that, you know, I, uh, uh, you know, I'm sure that it's, it's, we know that it's not the most common, um, practice out there, but you know, like to see when things do grow organically, um, you know, and I'm sure that it sounds like they are doing that as well, because we've definitely had this bro, you know, thank you for bringing this to us, uh, block balanced by the way, you know, so they're definitely getting organic growth as well. [00:14:15] So that's good to see. [00:14:17] George: Full disclosure. Three of these things around somewhere, uh, they've got this poison drop coming, but they're doing it in a clever way. Well, they'll, you know, drop an extra thing that as they claim will be. Important in their ecosystem, but you have to have an unlisted, so you can see there, they're playing the game. [00:14:36] They're trying to get people to D lists so that they can more quickly like manipulate the floor and manipulate the price and value. Like they're marketers, they're they're savvy and you know, they're, they're going to hustle for a bit. So, um, I wouldn't say this is a long-term hold, but, um, I'm playing the game. [00:14:54] I'm playing the game. Cause it's interesting watching these like Freemans and Lomans like some random ones are just taking off, uh, with a team and energy to just, not as many as before now, the overall market was about 5% down over the past week in terms of like NFT volume. But it's still things that are taking off randomly. [00:15:14] Andrew: Yeah, that's true. There's definitely, there's definitely still movement in some projects here and there. It's, it's sneaky because there's like you said, not a ton of volume out there. So you got to look closely to find it right now. [00:15:25] George: Yeah, exactly. And I did, I did see some volume and that's one of the things that actually initially attracted to me or attracted me to it. Like they quickly mint it out. So there was a hype and interest and, you know, Ms. A team with a plan that stocks. Okay. So, you know, my financial advice and talking about JPEGs on the unit. [00:15:41] Andrew: All right. Yeah. Thanks again. To block bounds for bringing that up. [00:15:44] George: Legislating NFTs. I'm excited. I just, I, you know, I, uh, I thought this day would kind of not come, but there are top line points, you know, to pull out that are in this proposed bill. It was, uh, I can't believe that they did this, but guess how many pages the proposed bill was? [00:16:06] Andrew: 69. Was it 69? [00:16:08] George: It was 69. So 69 paid proposal. Somebody did that on purpose [00:16:15] Andrew: Oh, man. Yeah. Well, [00:16:16] George: that doesn't have an [00:16:17] Andrew: there's N yeah, there's no better way to ingratiate yourself to the crypto community than by following the meme. [00:16:26] George: Ha ha you must obey the means, but there, uh, I mean, so actually, you know, in keeping with that, it was it's actually, I'd say net, net favorable, um, one is they're proposing. It'd be no new taxes on crypto transactions under $200. So that's like a nod on saying like, look, if I'm doing it as a transaction, why do I have to pay capital gains on something? [00:16:47] Also acting like a currency. So that is a, that's a huge, huge, huge thing. If you're talking about that, um, people have the right to self custody of their digital assets. That is awesome. Meaning that, um, if you bought something on a platform that was acting as a custodian and they didn't allow you to also get your own wallet involved or export it, like that's not allowed. [00:17:10] And that's a fantastic standard. Another one, most crypto assets are viewed as commodities rather than securities and, you know, super complicated when you get into it. But right now they're looked at as commodities. I think that's good overall because the sec does not like [00:17:28] Andrew: Yes, less SCC involvement I would say is generally a good thing. [00:17:33] George: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's the good Cliff's notes on It [00:17:36] Andrew: It would make it a lot more complicated for, for NFT or for crypto projects in general, if everything was a security and you had to basically get here to all of the sec regulations when creating any kind of crypto project. [00:17:52] George: Yeah, very, very common. Mining taxes, mined Bitcoin currently taxed as income at the moment it gets mined. I think this is also like a touch on like defy as well. Like the moment it gets my versus realized. So like, there's a question of like, has this been realized yes or no? And you actually can get stuck with a pretty big tax bill from something that fluctuates in price after it gets dropped to you. And this could also be. You know, you know, we talked about, for instance, like flower fam things that are distributing coins to you, does that happen at the point that it was distributed to you or the point that you move it into its next phase? And that's a big, big, big difference sometimes, especially, uh, speaking to somebody who held Elvis at two different points in time. [00:18:38] And when they were worth a thousand X a different. [00:18:41] Andrew: And which way are they? I'm sorry, I didn't actually see that part. Which way are they going to, are they proposing to legislate that? [00:18:47] George: Yeah. So they're saying that, uh, the bill is proposing that miners will not be taxed after they sell. So it's the moment of sale, not the moment of distribution. Right? [00:18:58] Andrew: Great. Okay. That's yeah, I'd say that's much more fair to, to the minor, you know, there's less pressure to sell them too, because when you, if you're texting on the point that you get it, you sort of need to sell some immediately to cover those taxes. And that's not great either. [00:19:16] George: Yeah. There's a lot of problems there, especially with how quickly, again, like these currencies can change. And, uh, another big one is that stable coins have to maintain a hundred percent reserve intent. Luna. [00:19:29] Andrew: Yeah, that's obviously a good one to have in there after the Luna disaster. Um, although I, you know, I'm not sure that it will, I don't know. I'm not sure it would have prevented that, that problem in general. [00:19:43] George: I mean USD T right. Tether, classically as like, uh, a varied bank of assets that back it, but where it's not entirely clear what those assets. They actually had the firepower to withstand what seemingly was a follow on attack to them. But I think a logic, a lot of those things are just logical. It's like I quit. [00:20:03] I couldn't believe how much common sense was in this bill. And I was, I was shocked actually. [00:20:08] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it seems good overall, you know, we, you know, it would be great to get some more clarity on how NFTs will be treated. Uh, sounds like we are going to have to wait a bit for that. Um, a new asset class makes me think that, you know, there's at least some consideration being given to the accident. [00:20:27] These can't be treated with. With what we currently have in place. And, you know, I'm hopeful that that means that we will find something that I don't know isn't treating every sale with under a year, like a short-term capital gains sale. Um, I, you know, I think that we need to find a better way because the taxes right now in, in on NFTs are, it's a big, it's a big cost when. [00:20:55] When you're trading these and you know, at this point, there's certainly, it's certainly difficult to say that you're going to buy and hold for over a year. Um, and in most cases, [00:21:07] George: But think about the functionality as well, that is ultimately hampered in any sort of forge mechanic. Right? So for a thing where I have to take two entities and merge them together to get a new thing, what did I just do? I just incurred a short-term capital gain tax on. Those those assets. And now I have this new asset, like it simply doesn't work treating it as this type of commodity with these types of, uh, short-term long-term gains, uh, involve it. [00:21:34] It's hampering the tech in the same way that when online stores and e-commerce first came out and they were like, well, how do we do sales tax? Because it's on the online, each individual statement still like a bit confusing, but there are some standards that have rolled out that said like, okay, here's a new technology and a new way that things need to operate. [00:21:52] Andrew: Yeah. I mean, something that did happen, you know, you're right. That, that did take time for taxes to roll out with correctly with e-commerce and, you know, brought to mind. Amazon fought against those for so long. And then once they sort of had their position, you know, we're quick to, to fight for tax laws being put in place. [00:22:14] And I do hope that, you know, we, aren't looking at another situation where it's helping the current, uh, or the established players and, and at a, at a detriment to, uh, to. Players that are coming up in the crypto market possessed. We know we're still very young here and we need a lot more new things coming up. [00:22:35] So I hope that that is, you know, that we are really fostering innovation in this space. When, when this, uh, built is finalized. [00:22:44] George: Yeah, I didn't see any note on like when this might. Come through at all. I feel like they have a slow summer to get here, but I'd imagine sometime this year. [00:22:56] Andrew: Yeah, I would hope so. Um, you know, Uh, well I'm sure. See lots of, uh, political, um, I don't know, arguing about this as we get to midterm elections as well, because I think that, you know, as I say, I think crypto will become a bigger and bigger issue in elections and politics in general. [00:23:17] George: I think you're right. The crypto friendly politician and policy was going to be a very, very quick button to get pressed for money. Little thing I know about politicians, they like money. And so if you're saying that, Hey, we're crypto friendly and I have crypto friendly policies. See right here, you're going to get support from the community. [00:23:38] You know, notably, you know, same Sam Bain and freed said he may be dropping. Seriously, billions of dollars on this election cycle. And it wasn't saying that it wasn't going to be explicitly around crypto, but let's be honest. If a crypto multi-billionaire is becoming a, you know, active political force, it may Dawn on you that you may have the need to have a crypto policy in mind. [00:24:04] And probably be one that is semi favorable as are frankly. Most tax law policies that favor the rich in our country. Anyway. So like you're, even if you have small bags, you're like you're on a big wagon. I think. [00:24:20] Andrew: Yeah. You know, it's a good way of putting it. Um, you know, we do have to hope that these people, we have to hope that the crypto industry fights the right way and you know, and it does make me concerned. There's a lot of really big bag holders that don't necessarily need to, uh, that don't have the, aren't looking for the same outcome as a lot of other people that are in crypto as most of the people that are in crypto. [00:24:48] Um, you know, and they, you know, just be careful, I guess, as we're, as we're getting into this, the pro crypto, um, stance can be a wide range of things. [00:24:59] George: Yeah, that's true. There's a lot that fits under that umbrella. And it's easy to paint right now with one brush because there's, there's only like X number of million wallets involved, but once that starts getting up there, there's going to be a wider array, I think is really good though. A reminder of how early we are in NFTs, like genuinely early, like the asset class and tax laws have not even been established for this technology yet. [00:25:27] And now once it does get there and you'd have the U S government taking seriously, the idea of crypto and non vulnerable tokens and this idea of digital ownership as something that's going to be passed into law. And once it does, it will definitely. everyone is not coming, but it is a strong narrative for why this is not a fad and why this will be here over a longer period of time. [00:25:52] Andrew: Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing the, uh, the NFT section of the wall street journal at some point. [00:25:58] George: Oh, the fact that they're not selling their own pages, just silly, like sell your own bed, like the times should be doing it every day. It's such a no brainer for money. I just feel like there are just stodgy humans that are just like, we can't do it on principle. Like cool. Is that the same principle that lets you run all those ads? [00:26:17] Andrew: Hi magazine has managed to move ahead. Somehow nobody was paying attention to time magazine for a long time. And. They decided to get active in NFD isn't there. I don't know. They're certainly they're active and they're doing new things. And I think they're bringing in a whole lot more in digital revenue than they were before. [00:26:40] George: Yeah. Well, when your back is against the wall, you tend to try new things. And so there you go, right? Desperation brings out innovation. All right. that's what I got. We'll follow it. If there's a new, a new vote or something moved on it. I love speculating on this kind of thing, but positive. Wow. Positive things. [00:26:59] Andrew: All right. Good talking to George. [00:27:02] George: See ya.    

Lockdown may be over, but our store of lockdown tales is not. Music: Creepy — Bensound.com.   Here are some Totally Made Up Tales brought to you by the magic of the internet.   Try placing your hands on my thighs and then rub.   Language makes it easy to understand other people and animals.   Friends don't listen to moaning. Friends tell each other to shut up.   One day, Maisie got out of bed, stretched, and thought, I wonder what I should do today. She arched her back and flicked her tail and stretched her claws. Perhaps she would go and chase birds. That will be a wonderful thing to pass the time, particularly if she could catch that fat blue tit that had been taunting her for days. She jumped up onto the window sill and out, climbing up onto the roof. From her high up vantage point, she looked over the gardens of the neighbourhood that she regarded quite rightly as her own. There, three gardens down, sat a bird. Perched on an old fashioned flat surfaced bird table covered in bacon rinds, pecking away at them with an arrogant swagger in its manner. Maisie extended her claws and licked them carefully, making sure that they were sharp and ready for action. Stealthily putting one paw in front of the other, she crept across the tiles of the roof, with the smoothness of a monorail. First, from her own house to the next door. And then the one beyond that, and finally to the one in whose garden the bird perched. She crouched low against the roof tiles, peering intently down at the bird, still unaware of her presence. And then, letting out a yodelling screech, she leapt for the bird table. Midway through her jump, the bird, alerted by her yodel, turned, looked at her, and took flight. Maisie landed on the bird table, which wobbled precariously. As it wobbled slightly, it fell onto its side and an ungainly heap of cat, bacon rind, and table were left on the lawn. From inside the house, Maisie heard the owner yelling. He was fumbling for the key for the back door and looked like the sort of angry red-faced man that might teach geography. Maisie took off like a shot. And crouched in the branches of a nearby tree where she wouldn't be able to be reached, she licked the bacon fat off her paws and was surprisingly pleased by the taste. Perhaps, she thought, I should hunt bacon next. The end.   Timothy sat down on a rock, at the side of the road. He was weary, having walked from the village all the way out to where he was now. The flat, marshy fields of the fens stretched out in a featureless expanse, as far as the horizon in all directions. He was beginning to worry that the pub that he was heading for, maybe didn't actually exist. It had sounded so attractive when his Airbnb host had recommended it to him as a pleasant Sunday afternoon outing. But now, the wind whistling between the rocks and the heather, he was having second thoughts. As he sat on his stone, a cold feeling started to creep from the rocks into his bones. He thought he should get moving again, but somehow couldn't quite pick up the energy to stand up. It seemed that he was getting heavier by the moment, and that his thoughts were slowing. His heart rate seemed to be slowing too. His pulse, almost impossible to discern. Eventually the sculpture park in Lowestoft became Britain's top tourist attraction for 2020.   Walking home one afternoon, Melissa stopped by a bank by the side of the road to pick some wild flowers. They were a wonderful selection of colours, bright yellow, dark purple, and pale cornflower blue. She wrapped them carefully in a scarf that she had with her, and took them home and arranged them in a vase. The smell of the flowers filled her living room. It was rich and intoxicating, with that edge of the night that comes from wild flowers. Even by the time she was getting ready to go to bed, she could still feel permeated through the house, the magic and feeling of dusk. As she slept, the land of dreams washed itself over the horizon of her consciousness. She saw herself dancing, dancing through fields of flowers, dancing with flowers, just dancing throughout the night. When she woke in the morning, it was not in the comfortable and familiar bed that she had gone to sleep in. Although the bed was still there, now it was twined with flowers. Every surface covered with creepers, with blooms, and even the very sheets had turned to patterned flowers. She lay in a bed entirely of flowers. As summer turned to autumn, the bloom of the flowers faded and the leaves of the creepers crinkled and shrivelled and prepared for the winter ahead. Now the house felt more cold than it had ever done. And she started to resist going to bed, staying up later and later, the bed feeling cold and unwelcoming when she slipped into it, finally. At last, on a chill October night, the first frost of the year came and carried her away. When they found her body cold, dark, and alone, creepers were still entwined with her limbs and a small wreath of still vibrant flowers sat upon her brow. The end.   Philip loved the colour purple, and everything that he owned, wherever possible, he would either buy in that colour or subsequently paint or dye to match his preference. He had purple socks, shoes, purple t-shirts and hats, purple house, a purple car, and a purple cat. He preferred purple food, although it wasn't always easy, but beetroots and certain types of broccoli for instance were among his favourites. He liked purple music, and that meant that he listened to a lot of Prince. And, at work sitting at his purple desk, wearing his purple suit, he picked up his purple phone and spoke to other people who did not appreciate purple to the same extent he did. Philip was a purple consultant. If the metaphor isn't clear to you at this point, then there's no hope for you in the modern world. The end.   The river flowed lazily between the sun-kissed fields. It had been a long summer, but Annabel was looking forward to the autumn. She had the kind of fair skin that burned easily, and much as she loved the bright summer days, she had found it taxing to constantly have to be lathering on factor 50, and finding a tree to be in the shade of, and covering up her arms. But now she could see that the harvest was coming in, and that meant that summer was at an end. Not only would she not have to worry about the sun for much longer, but she would soon see some of her friends again, returning from their summers. She walked along the bank of the river, enjoying the soft gurgling sound that it made as it flowed through the rushes and the low hanging bushes and overhanging trees on its banks. She wasn't really taking care of where she was going. She knew the landscape so well, she could find her way home from anywhere. But soon it was beginning to get dark, and then she realized she wasn't sure where she was. She looked up for a familiar marker for some sense of how far she had come, and whether it would make sense to continue or to turn back. There weren't any buildings that she could see nearby. Although the hills looked vaguely familiar in shape, but when she looked down to the river, it was much smaller than it should have been had she been anywhere near home. The light was fading, and the shadows were lengthening and thickening around her, and the now unfamiliar countryside was beginning to take on the sinister aspect of night. Desperately, she looked around, turning towards the setting sun to see if she could see any smoke rising from a settlement. But there was nothing, even the sounds of the motorway, which was less than 10 miles from her home, or of planes overhead, or of machines bringing in the harvest had dropped away. All she could hear was the burbling of the stream. And, as the sun went down, she heard the wolves crying. Ooh: the end.   Fly a kite in the wind. It'll be your freedom. Shopping with your mother leads to strife.   Jennifer pruned her rosebush. It was the first time in the year that she'd been able to get out into the garden, and she was relishing snipping off the bits that displeased her. This bush was her pride and joy, she had been tending it for many years, and it was hardy and produced fat flowers reliably every spring. As she pruned, she hummed to her herself, contentedly. She hummed a selection of popular classics, and she found that this not only soothed her but also seemed to please the rosebush in a way that she wasn't quite able to quantify. By the time her husband called her in for tea, she had pruned away all of the unwanted matter and left with a perfect rose bush fit for the growing season. She went into the house and closed the door behind her and looked out through the window as she sipped the delicious cup of tea that her husband had made for her. I think I'm in with a good chance at this year's show, she said to him. Out in the garden, the rose bush hummed softly to itself the overture from Cavalleria Rusticana. The end.   Dear Maggie, My breasts are not growing as fast as I'd like. What can I do? Yours, Apples   Dear Apples, Have you tried pumping your breasts using a bicycle pump? Alternatively, just get over it. Yours, Maggie   I'm James and I'm here with Andrew. These stories were recorded without advanced planning, and then lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more Totally Made Up Tales.   Andrew: I mean there was a whole thing there... Cause there's a whole thing in medieval literature about, oh, her breasts were small and round like apples. They really loved, Medieval Britons really loved apple shaped – James: They really loved describing breasts, I think is what you're saying. I'm sure that there are many instances of, so: monk, this illustration you've done. Why exactly are you so keen on these breasts the size of apples? Do we have to see them? I mean, is it necessary to the story you're illustrating in any way? And also, what's this flying penis doing? Andrew: It's a useful sex aid for church-sanctioned marital intercourse. James: Surely in medieval church-sanctioned intercourse breasts are generally not for sex. I mean, I'm guessing a little, but I can't imagine that there was a Papal Encyclical going: it's okay to motorboat. Andrew: No, but the point is that as a visual cue... James: Breasts mean sex. Andrew: Yes, yes, yes. James: Yes I suppose so. Andrew: Hemispheres is like, oh, fleshy hemispheres. It's like, oh, razzle. That's just how we work. James: Certainly if you were a monk, and didn't see any women, I can imagine you're just going: oh, it's a pair of apples. Andrew: Oh, two eggs have aligned in a bowl. James: I'm just imagining a monk, a monk preparing dinner in the kitchen and he calls over his monk buddy, going, "Hey, look at that!" And he just looks at him... And it's just two eggs. It's like, "Yes, yes, yes Michael it's two eggs. What's your point?"

In this episode, we cover: 00:00:00 - Reflections on the Episode 00:03:15 - What is Mortgage Servicing 00:13:20 - Impact of the Great Financial Crisis  00:18:40 - Andrew's Background 00:24:10 - Valon's Technological Innovations  00:31:06 - Relationship with the Consumer  00:36:00 - Regulations and Regulators  00:40:40 - Valon's Future/Outro Links:Website: Valon TranscriptJason: Welcome to the Perfectly Boring podcast. Today we have Andrew Wang, CEO of Valon, on the show, and today we're taking on the topic of mortgage servicing. So quickly, what is mortgage servicing?Well, a mortgage is obviously a loan for a home. And mortgage servicing is the institutions that actually take care of paying off that loan over the 10-, 20-, 30-year timeline. So, that digital interface where you pay your bill, et cetera, that is not always your originating bank. And Andrew is building a fascinating business in this space. We learned a lot about the mortgage, the evolution of the mortgage servicing space over time, the impact of the great financial crisis, and the interesting approach Valon is taken, not only just with technology, but changing the relationship with the end customer. So, what were some of the interesting touch points that we got during the conversation, Will?Will: It was a really wild discussion because I started with a fairly preliminary understanding of what mortgage servicing was. And in part of the wind up that listeners are going to get an opportunity to hear, Andrew really gives us a perspective as to how critical mortgage servicing is to the underlying health of the US, and therefore global, economy, and how much of an afterthought mortgage servicing has historically been, and why that should not necessarily be the case, and why now is the, sort of, unique moment in time to be able to use advanced technology and a reorganization of the overall stack for mortgage servicing to bring a better product to market for both consumers, for originators, for investors, and for regulators. And so, I mean, really badass discussion, really cool company, a space most people never think about, definitely a boring space, but with a just immense amount of value to be created.Jason: Yeah, and hopefully our listeners go through kind of the same increase in excitement that I had during the conversation, which is you kind of over time just realize this entire industry of mortgage servicing, not only is it critical, but how much they're missing the actual point which is, if you really just focus on the homeowner and creating a great experience for them, this is a huge relationship, it's a multi-decade relationship, and there's probably not just one product you can offer them. But they're stuck in the staid and stodgy technology of yore, and haven't been able to move as quickly and break through to open that aperture and open that relationship with their customer. So, before we get too deep into the weeds, let's just jump into the interview. Here's Andrew.Will: Andrew Wang, founder and CEO of Valon, thank you for being on the podcast with us today to talk about the very boring, very large industry of mortgage servicing. For the benefit of our listeners, it would be good to start at a really high level and give people kind of a baseline for what mortgage servicing is, and maybe a little just on the history of the mortgage servicing industry, you know, before we dive in a little bit on the specifics of your background and Valon.Andrew: So, mortgage servicing is a sort of pervasive thing that exists throughout the mortgage ecosystem and in the lives of most American homeowners, but it is also just not very well understood in terms of the dynamics that are involved with mortgage servicing in terms of who's involved, how they're involved, and exactly what they do. But again, nonetheless, it's something where it's within every part of the mortgage ecosystem today. But to give you some background on mortgages and how mortgage servicing even is a real thing, let me first talk about the mortgage industry as a whole. When you think about the mortgage industry, it's obviously a very large component of the American economy today. When people look at it, they say, “Hey, 20% of GDP in terms of housing,” something that the US government often uses in order to boost spending; they lower our mortgage rates in order to cause people to have more savings and then spend on other things. It's just a very, very core piece of the American ecosystem.But it actually came into play really, during the depression, the Great Depression, were effectively pre the Great Depression, mortgages weren't really regulated all that much, and as a result, there were kind of weird, funky structures, even crazier than what people saw in 2007. And as a result of that and as a result of all these people who weren't able to pay their mortgages due to these balloon loans being in place, which are basically loans that don't amortize, and basically become due and payable at a certain point in time, what the US government did as a function of the New Deal was put these government institutions into place to create more affordable housing structures, to create these institutions who would really regulate the housing market, or really add liquidity into the housing market so Americans could actually own a home.Will: And that kicked off the current, almost philosophical ideal that we have today about homeownership kind of being the epitome of the American dream. This was—the mortgage was almost an invention to bring that to fruition after World War Two?Andrew: That's exactly right. So, after World War Two, it became more and more core to the American dream. When everybody talks about, “Hey, what is the American dream?” It's obviously being able to get further in life based on your own merits, it's about owning a home, and starting a family, building a community, all of those different things, and the home is just so central to that dream. But exactly to your point, it started from post-World War Two.By the 1990s, it became such a large component of how the US economy even functioned and worked that there was more and more so this focus on affordable housing, putting people in homes, putting people in sort of a structure that creates the ability, creates stronger communities, and create a more robust ecosystem within cities, within neighborhoods, and everything else. So, that's how mortgages became so intertwined in the American system versus, you know, other countries, which may have relatively high homeownership rates, but just not nearly as high as the United States. That's, like, the genesis of how mortgages became a big component of it. The mortgage servicing aspect of it actually wasn't as relevant of a thing, that became more of a thing, actually, after the great financial crisis, the GFC. So pre-2008, what ended up happening was actually that most people when they got a mortgage were serviced by the same people who gave them that mortgage. So, you had Countrywide, you had some of these older institutions which have since gone bankrupt or have been acquired by more older financial institutions, servicing the mortgages. So, it wasn't really a separate thing, for the most part, at that point in time, and it wasn't really an important topic, actually.Jason: Before we go too deep, maybe you can define servicing. Like, how does that show up in the average American's life? What is servicing when it comes to an individual?Andrew: So, mortgage servicing specifically is what happens right after you get a new mortgage. So, when you get a new mortgage, you go to your originator. It can be someone who works at a bank, it could be mortgage broker that is a family friend of yours, it could be someone on Main Street who has a sign out that says, “I'm a mortgage lender. Come inquire about rates.” Once you get that mortgage from them, you have to make the payments back because you've got the mortgage to buy your home.That entire process of making those payments and the institution that you make those payments towards, that is the mortgage servicer. Now, when you look at that very simply, that is similar to a debt collection agency where you're effectively making payments, they're collecting on the debt and they're making those payments back to the person who made that mortgage. Now, what's actually more complex about mortgage servicing, as opposed to normal general debt collection is the fact that one, there's a lot of more regulation associated with it, right, because there is a home involved, and there's a lot of regulation around how you deal with homes; there's a second component which is, as per the government agencies and as per many state regulatory agencies, you are considered the trusted financial advisor to the homeowner along the homeownership journey. So, when a homeowner says, “Hey, I'm unable to make a payment; I need some help,” the mortgage servicer isn't allowed to just say, “I don't care. Deal with it,” they're often required to go through all these interactive processes to make sure that the homeowner can actually get the right solution and continue owning their home.Long story short, just jumping quickly back to what we were just talking about, it's really core, and part of the thesis, really, of the American economy that they want to keep people in homes, they want to keep people getting homes, increase the homeownership rate, make it part of the American dream. So, what they did was they made mortgage servicers responsible for keeping people in homes.Jason: Gotcha. And this was on the back of the great financial crisis?Andrew: Correct. Actually, it was there before but what I was trying to really get into was that pre the great financial crisis, it wasn't as really hot of a topic because homes were honestly increasing prices all the time; anyone who bought a home basically made money on their home, so just not really a big worry throughout the entire ecosystem. So, when people thought about mortgage servicing back then, it existed but it wasn't really a concern. It wasn't a focus of both regulators, politicians, really anyone in the entire ecosystem. But when the great financial crisis happened, what ended up happening was, well, people weren't able to get out of their homes, they weren't able to pay for their homes, their homes were less valuable than the mortgage that they took out.And as I mentioned just right now, the mortgage servicing process is actually also the process of helping the homeowner stay in that home. And that's why home mortgage servicing became such a large topic and became such a large focus because post the great financial crisis, it became all about making sure that people who took out these mortgages were able to put themselves in a position where they were able to keep their homes. Obviously, there was a lot of difficulty with respect to it. Obviously, there were a lot of people who were unable to actually pay for their mortgages on an ongoing basis, so there were a lot of what's called modifications, basically changes to the underlying mortgage in order to make it affordable. But that entire ecosystem really exploded both from a regulatory scrutiny perspective, from the amount of activity that was happening in it because of the great financial crisis.Jason: So Andrew, why does mortgage servicing even exist to begin with?Andrew: Yeah. So, this is one of those really long archaic, sort of, pieces of knowledge that people have to understand the ecosystem, understand the history, understand all the different dynamics before they end up realizing why it's even a piece of the entire pie. And if you look at other countries out there, like Great Britain, Asian countries where there's tons of mortgages, as well—China, Japan—but mortgage servicing as a separate concept, it's just not really a thing. So, it's really, for the United States, a concept that is tied to Fannie, Freddie, FHA, VA—which are basically Ginnie—these government institutions. So, the long story short, but still very long story, is that when the government put these different institutions in place, they created a concept where basically the underlying person who they wanted to interact with the mortgage was still the originator.So, I make a mortgage, my business isn't to hold this mortgage because the government wants to buy the mortgage and make it more liquid, and therefore more people can make mortgages, and therefore the cost of a mortgage is lower, but I still want you to be the person who interacts with the homeowner. So, I want to split this concept out. I'm going to own the mortgage, you're going to service the mortgage. And let's stick with that for now. So, that was, like, phase one of it.Then phase two of it was the fact that well, if that's going to happen, then every single person who makes a mortgage needs to be able to service the mortgage, so that's not fair to mom and pop shops across Main Street. If I originate whatever, 10, 20, 50, 100 mortgages a month, I'm not going to be at a place or a scale where I can run a true mortgage servicing operation. It just doesn't work. So, how am I going to deal with it? So, the government, again, to try to incentivize mortgage lending to incentivize liquidity in the space, said, “Fine. You can sell that servicing to another guy who then will deal with the relationship.”And boom, thus mortgage servicing is born, the idea of mortgage servicing is born, and this entire ecosystem then diverges. And really, not just diverges, it converges really to an efficient model of saying who is the best at mortgage servicing? Who are these cheap cost providers who are in the Midwest, who do it poorly, but thus can pay the highest price for mortgage servicing, and thus that's where all of the capital and all of the assets, sort of, flow? And that's why we live in the world we live in.Will: So, servicing is kind of an afterthought for the majority of the existence of a mortgage industry at large. Until, '08, '09. In '08, '09, everybody starts fixating on the servicing process as what it should always have been looked at, which is this really critical interface between the borrower and the lender, to a degree. And as a part of all of the regulation and the ongoing focus on servicing during that period of time, as we almost reworked the entire housing market, the cost to serve as a mortgage also changed a lot. Maybe you could just touch on that because there are a lot of compliance and regulatory framework aimed at servicing actually dramatically increased the complexity of doing servicing, which I think had a pretty profound impact on the cost to do so, right?Andrew: Yep. So, to elaborate further on these points that you're mentioning, the mortgage servicing ecosystem was really underdeveloped, both from one technology perspective as well as an understanding perspective, pre-2008. Again, people were not really afraid of being able to pay mortgages because naturally whenever you couldn't, you just sold your home and you probably made money on it. So, it's debatable as to whether or not [unintelligible 00:14:48] people are fully compliant back then whether the cost of servicing would be higher, but nonetheless, it is based on the data that people can see in the financials of mortgage servicing companies. Mortgage servicing became extremely expensive and really double, tripled in costs post-2008.And the way that it played out was basically the great financial crisis happened; people were unable to pay their mortgages; the traditional way would be to just put people out of homes, and as I mentioned earlier, the government's very incentivized to keep people in homes. And in order to make sure that the servicers were doing the right things, they basically put a bunch of different regulations both on the federal level and the state level to ensure that mortgage servicers were following the right processes in order to determine whether or not someone could make a payment for the mortgage, make sure that they're offered the right plans, and to make sure they were provided the right disclosures before they actually got through a process of foreclosing. So, when they put these regulations in place, normally you would think, “Well, these things can be somewhat automated. These things can be provided as part of the process.” But as I mentioned because it was so under-focused, there was just really not that much technology in the space, really not that many technological providers even involved in the industry.There's one main one, named Black Knight. So, when this all happened, these servicers went to Black Knight and basically asked them, “Hey, well, we are running into these issues. Can you help us?” And the answer was, quite frankly, “We will try, but we can't really guarantee all that much to you because there's a lot of changes, there's a lot of code that needs to change, and we just can't get it all done that quickly.” So, the only way that the mortgage servicers could handle these different regulatory requirements was basically to put people in place.You basically replaced what you would like to use, or what like to get done with technology, with people. So, you basically have this explosion of people cost in the number of people required to service a mortgage, and basically got to a place where today, there's two to three times as many people who need to be involved in a mortgage, versus pre-2008.Jason: What does the actual structure and distribution of mortgage servicers look like today, and how has that changed since the great financial crisis?Andrew: It's one of the things that honestly, the government focuses a lot on. There's a term, which is systematically relevant of financial institutions. So pre-2008, like I mentioned, there wasn't really that much of a concept of mortgage servicing. There were mortgage servicers out there, but most of the servicing was still held by the originators who made the mortgages. So, as a function of that, the ownership and really the people or entities that were servicing the mortgages was distributed quite similarly to the origination volumes.The guys who made the mortgages were the guys who serviced the mortgages, and as a result, there was a good split between bank who were very involved in mortgage space, as well as non-bank entities became more relevant, you know, probably post-2005. Today, we've gone into a world that is more and more non-bank-oriented, meaning the regulations have stepped up to such a dramatic degree that the underlying institutions who were originally involved had really substantially changed. I'll give you some simple examples. CitiMortgage, one of the largest originators previously, still a very large originator probably top five, now no longer services its own mortgages. It's completely outsourced—I think as of 2017—all of their mortgage servicing to Cenlar.Similarly, US Bank is no longer servicing their mortgages. The folks at JPMorgan Chase, Jamie Dimon has, you know, publicly stated that they want to get out of this business and they've been working with other sub-servicers to slowly migrate to a place where they're not servicing their mortgages anymore. So today, you are in a world now, where it's basically 70% non-bank dominated versus pre-2008, we were in a world that was probably 70% bank dominated.Jason: You're painted a really stark picture of an increasingly disjointed, highly regulated, under-digitized, mortgage servicing market. This sets the table really well, I'm sure, to start to talk about how you're changing those dynamics with Valon. But before we dive into the company, maybe you can give us a bit of background as to how you personally got involved with mortgage servicing to begin with.Andrew: I like to coin—or use the term that I am an accidental operator because my background is actually on the investment side. I started out, really, in my career focusing on investing in some of these legacy mortgages. So, my first job out of college was working at Goldman. I was on what's called the short-term products [unintelligible 00:19:24], did some stuff with mortgages, I did some stuff with aircraft, but I quickly moved over to a Soros Fund Management where my primary job was actually to look at mortgages. So, I started out actually looking at the legacy, what's called non-agency residential mortgage-backed securities, and looking at the data underneath and seeing what was going on with these mortgages.Naturally, as with much of the market, we went from buying these securities to a place where we started buying the underlying home loans, the actual mortgages as opposed to the securities that you can buy on an exchange. And as a function of that, I ended up having to work with the servicers because when you buy the whole loan, unlike a security where everything's packaged up for you, you don't have to think about the accounting, the servicing, whatever else, when you buy the whole loan, you have to go find the guy who's selling the whole loan, you got to understand what he's doing, so he's not selling us stuff that you didn't want to buy, he's running the processes the right way, and you also have to go work with the servicer to actually get the servicing to happen, because it's a licensed activity. So unsurprisingly, the way I got about it was I started calling all my friends who had owned whole-loan portfolios before, and I asked them, “Who do you guys work with? Who should I be talking to you?” And the answer was, very simply, “They all suck.” Like, nobody likes your servicer.Now, you would think that would be an answer purely from one perspective, one angle like it'd be the perspective of an investor, maybe they charge too much. But it turns out it's because they aren't liked by the consumer, extremely low NPS scores of on average about 16; they aren't liked by their investors, they're extremely commoditized and extremely poor customer service, and they're most certainly not liked by the regulators who just keep fining them over and over again. You search mortgage servicing [unintelligible 00:21:07], you basically have, like, thousands of pages about this. And it's still even happening today. And it's not even entities that, you know, are foreign and pretty small and not understood; it's even large institutions like Citibank which is—like I said—why they got out of mortgage servicing.So naturally, my view on it was, well, this seems like something that technology can solve. This is something that we should be able to do better. This seemed insane that in the 21st century, that we're still dealing with this type of stuff. But as you start to dig in more and you start to pry into the actual underlying business, you start to understand both the complexities from an execution perspective and the actual underlying technological challenges. So, I ended up trying to find a couple of venture companies to invest in to go do this, but I actually couldn't find anyone who had the right idea, the right setup, the right vision in terms of how to build this company.So, you know, I went about my way, kind of left this on the side, and focused on other things at the time. But actually came back to it when I started looking at mortgage servicing rights which, at the time, I didn't understand nearly as well because I bought what are called whole loan mortgages, this entire mortgage. Mortgage servicing rights are basically the contractual relationship between the person who owns the right to service the mortgage—like I said, to collect, to interact, to really deal with the data of the mortgage borrower—and the person who actually services the mortgage. So, it's the contractual right that allows you to sub-service a mortgage out. What's interesting about that is that is basically a way to own that relationship and contract that relationship long-term.And for me, as someone who had started looking more and more into FinTech, the way I sort of saw it was, here is a way and here is an asset class, and here's a space that actually allows the mortgage servicer to own these relationships and do have these long, sticky monthly engagement type relationships that they can have over 7, 10, 30 years. And that's a very unique thing to have. More importantly and most interestingly, it's in a situation where actually in this ecosystem, people pay you to own that relationship, people pay you monthly fees to say, “Hey, actually work with the borrower. Hey, actually interact with them, help them find what they need, whatever else, and we'll pay to do it, and you're allowed to market additional things to them.” So, to me, that seems like such an interesting situation because not only can you have a business that is built to really improve the margins of the business and build automation around it, but you have this sticky relationship with the homeowner that you can really use to build trust, and really sell future financial products to.And that just seems like a very interesting business in my mind. So ultimately, I decided, hey, investing is interesting but this seems like too big of an opportunity to give up. So, I decided I wanted to go start a business, and this was the business I started, you know, right after.Jason: And one of the most interesting things to me is that it's not just a software component, right? Because you had looked at a number of other software providers and decided to do something a little bit more full-stack, which we don't typically see in the venture space. People tend to just want the software component and tend to steer clear of the services component. Maybe you can talk a little bit about why you still decided to include services as a part of what Valon offers.Andrew: There's an understanding amongst most venture investors that you want to be in the software business because it has a high margin business, it's defensible business, and it's less subject to changes in terms of margin profile because of the large amount of margin you have. Which, you know, is understandable. And that's ultimately actually where we thought we were going to get to, until we dug into and, sort of, operating this business, the actual origin of starting a mortgage servicing company as opposed to just the technology company was the fact that we realized that existing players were hamstrung by their current software in such a crazy degree that they weren't even able to migrate off of their existing systems to a new system. It's also a super-regulated space so anybody who wants to do it, wanted or needed to see clear performance, clear audits, really regulatory buy-in before they even made those things. So, it actually started out originally as an execution [ploy 00:25:31] where we said, “Well, we can execute faster, we can learn faster, we can dogfood our own product so much faster, and come back to people later on once we've been able to show these numbers.”But as we started doing this business more and more, we began to further understand that there's actually a really, really great opportunity running the mortgage servicer because you have that direct customer relationship. And that's such a valuable thing because even if we had automated all of the backend processes and even if we were focused on just making these margins more efficient, it's not really fundamentally changing how the borrower perceives it. It's changing the financial profile of these businesses. And additionally, a lot of the things that we wanted to do was build trust, and that's a front-facing thing; that's something that you need to be invested in as a business, which a lot of the existing mortgage servicers didn't have that perspective and that view. So, for us, it became more and more of a consumer story versus an enterprise SaaS story where we can say, “Hey, not only can we get this cash flow machine by doing servicing well and build really good software around it, but we can really build a great partnership with the homeowners that are being serviced by us and really build longer-term relationships with them.” So, that's where I think the turning point change from, “Hey, we're doing this out of necessity,” to, “Hey, we're doing this because we think it's the best thing we can be doing for people.”Jason: I love also that because the existing system isn't able to migrate off, their slow and outdated solutions and they're a highly fragmented space, it's effectively a commodity; you can come in, build a whole new tech stack, still put humans against the problem, but undercut on price. But you kind of used that extra cost as a way to broker a relationship directly with the consumer and offer a more expansive and holistic product over decades, which is a fascinating inversion of what the traditional mortgage servicing mantra and MO is. Maybe you can talk to us about how you actually convinced the originators and loan purchasers, mortgage purchasers, to trust you and your new small startup to actually service those loans? Because it feels like a difficult business to really get your foot in the door and get those initial loans through the platform so that you can build that trust with the originators and the loan owners as well.Andrew: To your exact point, it's a business that's extremely difficult to get into, [again 00:27:52], a lot of regulatory scrutiny, there's a lot of requirements to get into the business. And just name a couple here, you need—generally speaking—all 50 states licensed for you to be a quote-unquote, “Scaled servicer.” You need to have what's called agency approval, Fannie and Freddie approval, to be able to service most mortgages in the United States. So, between those different aspects, it's really hard to even get the legal requirements to be involved in this business, let alone get commercial contracts.But the way we approached this was really two-fold. The first part of it is, we were fortunate going into this space knowing that the existing players were so bad and so commoditized that actually, people were willing to work with different servicers. I'll give you a really simple example here: there's a company out there that we partnered with, it was one of our big investors, it's called to NRZ, and they're one of the largest owners of these mortgage assets. They own, like, 7% of the entire market. They own their own servicer, it's called Shellpoint.But even as an owner of that servicer, they don't actually give all of their business to their own business. And that's because they're trying to keep them competitive, that's because they're trying to diversify their risks, but the very fact that they don't give all their business to the entity that they are most financially incentivized to work with gives you a little bit of insight into how everybody thinks about this space, which is, “I'm not married to my vendor. I'm going to work with anybody who seems to be better. And there's a lot of things that are lacking, so you can try to convince me in a variety of different perspectives.” Obviously, if you've increase the bar because you've improved everything, that will no longer be the case, but today as it stands, that's how the ecosystem works.The second part of it, which is we actually went into this knowing that if we need these portfolios, we don't want to just have to convince people, we want to guarantees. So, we actually made sure that the initial investors in this company, the people who would take the benefits and the fruits of the technology that we built are some of the largest players in the space. So, we actually got folks like for example, Soros, NRZ, Jefferies, and a couple of other guys later on, to invest in the company with the belief that, “Hey, if I give you some mortgages to service and you actually are able to improve these margins, our business will be that much better off for it.” In some sense, they view this as, “Hey, this is an outsourced R&D effort. We can't hire good enough technical talent internally; we'll give you guys that through an equity investment, and if you guys win, we also win.”If you think about it as an example, NRZ spends something like, eh, on order of a billion dollars a year on servicing fees. If we can truly save them 10% on it and give that back to them—and let's say we save more than that, but we're just getting ten—well, that's $100 million a year that they're saving. And the way that their investments, or really their fund is really valued, that's a billion dollars of value that was just created. So, that's what's so interesting about this space which is, you have these players who are very incentivized for our success and we just made sure that we went to them very early on and said, “Hey, we're going to get this done. This is a very low risk for you; we're going to ask for a small portfolio, but if you give it to us and we succeed, we can both be big winners at the end of the day.” It's really about incentive alignment.Will: Andrew, I think one of the more profound things that you brought up here is that you're being paid to have a direct relationship with a consumer, a home-owning consumer, and that historically, I think mortgage servicers were happy being collection agents and not thinking about the long-term relationship that they had with the consumer, thinking about themselves as a commodity. How do you think about the relationship that you have with a consumer over the arc of your relationship with them and the types of products and services that you can start to bolt onto that relationship?Andrew: This is a really crucial point for us as a business, which is fundamentally and philosophically different from preexisting and the incumbent mortgage servicers. So today, the way people view this industry is that they view the extraction of value from the consumer as how they are still in business, the way that they generate margin. Meaning if there's a way I can extract an extra dollar from the consumer, for example, if I charge them a fee for making a payment online or for convenience, that's how they are continuing to make profits. Which is a very foreign and crazy concept, obviously, for people who are in venture and tech, et cetera. We take the approach that we want everything that we can do to make the consumer happier.a happier customer and investment towards making their experience better is how we actually make money. Because if you remember, at the outset, we don't actually make money from the consumer directly; we make money from servicing mortgages. And to us, the most efficient way to service the mortgage is a borrower who wants to use our automated products, who trusts us, and who doesn't call us with a lot of difficult questions. So, to do that, you have to really make sure you do everything right for the consumer so they are willing to trust you with that large financial ticket item that is their home. Now, I'll give you a couple of cool examples as to what you can do if you're a mortgage servicer who's really focused this way.So, really simple example; today, a lot of homeowners actually don't even use autopay, and you get a variety of different explanations. One of the really good explanations is that many people actually have lumpy incomes, so they don't really know when they'll get paid. Now, they want to use autopay, but the problem is because they don't know when they'll actually get paid, they need to make sure that they're paying when there's money in their bank. They don't want NSF fees, they don't want overdraft fees. We can use integrations with folks like Plaid to check their bank account and make sure that they have enough funds in their bank account before we pull, basically guarantee to them that you'll never get these type of fees.Now, that increases the convenience for the homeowner and allows them to put themselves on autopay, reduces actually for us the amount of times we have a call to make sure that they remembered to pay, and then overall, it actually results in a situation where we save more money and thus we make more profits at the end of the day. That's a really, really simple example.Another deeper layer you could go for example would be to tell people, “Hey, instead of just paying your mortgage through bill pay or whatever else that you're using, why don't you set up autopay and when you set up autopay will take $1 every time you use autopay and we'll actually pay it towards the next delinquent borrower.” Meaning it's a charitable donation; we're taking money out of our pockets to pay a delinquent borrower. Now, that doesn't seem like a big impact when you just think about the dollar, but when you think about the percentage of people who are current, and then people all do this, we actually can generate enough money that we can donate to delinquent borrowers. It actually reduces our overall delinquency rate and therefore our overall costs as a mortgage servicing company. That's virtually unheard of.Lower delinquency rates look better for agencies, for regulators, for investors, and we can do in a way which really doesn't take any money out of our own pockets, it just reduces costs because we're servicing with a lower friction way, but actually generates a lot of goodwill with the homeowner. Which then leads us into the second part, which is, well, we can actually cause people to stay on our platform because as the servicer, we actually can offer them the lowest rate possible. If you look at a world that we service the mortgage as well as originate, we don't care that much about making money on originations because we own the consumer, we own that relationship. And we know everything about them; we also have most of the information, so it's easily preprocessable. Which means that we can go to the homeowner and say, “You know, you're usually going to try to refinance right now, but I'll give you the best rate because I have zero marketing costs, and I just want to keep working with you.”So, you don't even need to shop with everybody else because I'm going to preload it, I'm going to give you the best rate, and you're going to have a very smooth origination process and servicing process because nothing will move off. So, you get more and more into these type of conversations around, hey, because of our relationship, because of the trust we build, we can offer people more and more products that honestly make them happier, and ultimately that will drive them towards using us more longer-term, which is exactly what we want. And that's what we find so interesting about the mortgage servicing space because while it's not understood this way today, it is the perfect setup to be in a situation where you're really building a long-term financial platform, and the mortgage is that linchpin to getting into that consumers life and really trying to build that trust relationship with them long-term.Jason: I've got to imagine the regulators absolutely love what you're doing. I'm curious if you're thinking through feeding that data loop back into the regulators because I can't imagine the regulation has gone down since a great financial crisis. I'm curious what relationship you have with the government on this front.Andrew: So, our relationship is primarily with the agencies. When you think about regulators, there are regulators who are the state regulators—they manage their own department of financial services in each state—there's obviously the CFPB, and then there's Fannie and Freddie who are called regulators, but really they're investors by and really regulate the mortgage market through their buying of mortgages. But from Fannie and Freddie's perspective, yeah, this is—you hit the nail on the head; this is exactly what they want, this is what they've been seeking for. When you look up on Fanny's website, “Hey, what is a servicer?” They literally write, “Trusted financial advisor.” That's what they want.But nobody does it today, and there's not much that they can do about it. So, from their perspective, they love this outcome where the servicer is thinking about this; they love an outcome where if the homeowner gets a stay with their originator, they have that continuity of relationship; and then they lastly love the outcome where if we are providing this platform on a greater scale, they then don't have to worry as much about the volatility of earnings for originators because they have this blended financial profile. It basically turns in originator from a company that basically has highs and lows based on how much origination is happening to a customer relationship management company. And that is honestly where they want this stuff to go long-term.Jason: And do individual homeowners get any say in the decision on who gets to service their mortgage? Or is it entirely up to the originals?Andrew: Unfortunately, it's buried on page whatever—probably, like, ten—on your closing disclosure, and then later on your mortgage documents, you get put to whoever your mortgage originator wants you to be serviced by.Jason: So, the way you'll… [laugh] coming into a home near you will be through your success with the people who are originating the mortgages and paying for that mortgage servicing contract?Andrew: Today, that is the case, but in very short order, by the end of the year, you can get a Valon mortgage. And when you're with Valon, you stay with Valon. We won't sell your mortgage, we'll keep your mortgage on our platform, and we'll build that long-term trust-based relationship with you.Jason: Tell us more about that.Andrew: Yeah, so we—I mean, we would love for a world—and this is something, by the way, plenty of people have gripes about where they want to be able to have a mortgage that they transfer the servicing based on their own discretion, based on who they want to work with, but that's a longer-term conversation, that's a highly regulator-based conversation. So, it's something that's not going to happen tomorrow. The easiest way that we can become partners with people who actually want to work with Valon is that we offer them a highly competitive mortgage. Again, the fact of the matter is, we don't need to make money off of mortgage origination; we make money off of having the consumer stay with us. So, we'll be happy to offer them possibly the lowest rates that they can get.So, when they come to Valon, they can get their mortgage refinanced, or if they're getting a new mortgage, they can just get a mortgage from Valon, and then thereafter, they'll continue to stay with Valon. There'll be serviced by Valon, when rates drop, we'll just be proactive and we'll preempt any sort of refinance that they want to do. They can log onto our webpage, they can log onto their app, and they will exactly know how much they can refinance it for, what the costs are, all those different things. But again, the nice part here is because we don't really need to make money on originations, like a Quicken, like a [loanDepot 00:40:13], or any of these other players out there—even Better Mortgage—they know that we have an incentive just to keep them on a platform and we can offer that lowest rate. And we can do that. So, that's what's so unique about it which is, you get that relationship, you get that great service, but you also get really priced competitive results, which we believe ultimately will build longer-term trust.Jason: I mean, it's an amazing and powerful refocus where you've effectively created alignment with all the major players in such a way that's made it difficult for any other competitors to compete with you. It's a pretty [laugh] amazing approach to the market that you've developed here. What gets you most excited about the future? Like wh—you know, obviously, you've got origination coming up; you know, in five, ten years, if you're massively successful, what's the impact you've had on the US economy and the US mortgage space?Andrew: So, there's obviously elements where we're helping consumers, right, so we can reduce the delinquencies in the system, like I mentioned, through different mechanisms. We offer people really cheaper financial products, which we believe they deserve, but I think the long-term most impactful thing is that we can provide, really, researchers as well as government regulators the right tools to make the right decisions. When you think about what basically happened recently with COVID, now the government went about and offered everybody forbearance, which is extremely expensive for both players in the industry as well as the government, but they don't really have a good way to address the crisis at hand. So, they used the very blunt-edged solution to it. As the platform that hopefully ends up winning the market, we can provide that information to the government; we can provide that implementation to them.So, they can be much more, with a sharp knife and really a small pencil, start to draw exactly what they want to end up happening. So, instead of giving a forbearance for every single person—which is what happened; they said, “You didn't have to pay a mortgage for nine months, twelve months,” instead of giving a forbearance to every person out there, you could say, “Let me check your bank account. Let me see that you're actually running into a crisis. And if you are, actually I will give you even longer. I will give you 18 months, I will give you until you figure out what to do next.”And for the people who didn't actually have a crisis, we're not going to give it to you. So, you actually can help the right people in this sort of situation. Alternatively, you might have a situation where the government wants to test a different modification program. Usually, it gets into a large argument about does this work; does it not work? There's not much data out there.But with a technological platform like us, you can actually go as far as to say, let's actually A/B test these results. If the government buys-in will test it with [unintelligible 00:42:54] portfolios, and we'll report these results. So, this is kind of where we believe government policy and really, American policy around housing can be really shaped if you had the right system and the right sort of infrastructure. So, while we are very focused on trying to build that long-term vision and build out a trust relationship with homeowners across the United States, we believe the longer-term impacts of doing something like this really come from the fact that we can leverage this infrastructure to help so many different people.Will: Aside from going deeper in the value chain on the mortgage lifecycle, are their orthogonal products—I know before we jumped on the call, we were sort of talking about insurance a little bit—are there other orthogonal products that are correlated to homeowners that from a product standpoint that you see Valon being able to bolt on to the platform over time?Andrew: I think the big new products that we'll be focused on outside of insurance as an example that we talked about where offering property insurance is a very natural next step, which we're already going to look to do by the end of this year is actually getting into things like for example, credit card debt consolidation. So, it's a very well-known thing that people when they get credit card debt sometimes want to refinance it with a HELOC because it's cheaper to pay a HELOC than a credit card. Now, that's not a very simple process today because getting a HELOC is a painful thing because you have to work with the servicer or you have to work with a HELOC originator. So, making it really easy where someone who has credit card debt, move it quickly over to their HELOC and pay less interest is obviously a quick next step. But that really actually speaks a lot more towards long-term financial management because again, we are dealing with such a large purchase and a large component of their daily—their monthly cash flows.So, as we look to what we do going forward, there probably will be a lot more around financial literacy, financial advisory, around all these different components. And if we can build that trust really leading the homeowner to make these right decisions and being able to forecast for them different outcomes based on what they want to do. So, I'd say that's probably the direction we'll ultimately take with this business. We need some time to work on all the different sort of initiatives that we have, but we're really hopeful that we can really make a difference here.Will: Andrew, congratulations. This is an unbelievably badass business and a very, very boring, esoteric industry that you are transforming. We really, really appreciate you taking the time to hang with us today and to give our listeners a look inside the mortgage servicing industry.Andrew: I appreciate it. Thanks for letting me talk. I went on a very, very long rant.Will: Thank you for listening to Perfectly Boring. You can keep up the latest on the podcast at perfectlyboring.com, and follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll see you next time.

 Transcript 00:00:00 Billy And they said you need to come with me right now and I said, I don't even know you. The head of the Pilot Assistance Program for the APA, which is American Airlines pilot and the other guy, was the chief pilot for my airline and this guy, Dave. He had a phony handed phones me he said this is your crew scheduling. Tell them that you're sick and I said I'm not sick. I said I'm. What are we doing? I'm not saying you said listen, tell him that you're sick that's all you have to say is I'm sick they know that you're going to be talking to him. Tell him that you're sick. Or if you don't, you're gonna end up on the news because the news vans are already looking for it. So you know. I mean, I'm a rational person and I was, you know, coming off a major Bender. But I knew that there was something wrong with that situation, so I just said, yeah, I'm sick and they said, OK, we're moving from your schedule and I think happiness is not even the right word. I think what I'm really looking for is peace is peace and serenity. That's why I'm I want to look in a mirror. And then I'll be happy with what I'm looking at. And sometimes it's. I've got to be selfless to do that. You know, I've got to help others to really be happy with myself. And that's totally cool. We closed, you know, anytime you know my can be just as negative and pessimistic as as the next guy. But when I'm doing something to help somebody else, so when I'm listening to someone else, I'm not thinking of my own problem. I'm not focused on me, when I'm helping someone else, you know, and I think that is such a massive lesson that I've learned. 00:01:35 intro You're listening to flying straight and aviators guide to navigating through a life of sobriety. People in the flying industry and other walks of life will share their experiences of living a life free of alcohol and other drugs. You will also hear from experts in the world of addiction and self-improvement.  Join Andrew O'Meally, Airline pilot, an non practicing alcoholic as he takes you on a journey, discovering how a sober life can lead to a deeper level of happiness. 00:02:11 Andrew Hi folks and welcome to this 5th episode of Flying Straight piloting a sober life. My name is Andrew O'Meally. Your host and I hope you're doing OK. Well on today's episode I speak with someone from over the other side of the world in Manhattan, Captain Billy Peterson. He was born and bred in that New York area and as I said, he's living in Manhattan today. This interview is little longer than the others, but I tell you, after recording them playing it back, there is not one word I could cut out. It's such a powerful account of his life. I find it hard to summarize it now, but what I will say is that his story with plenty of differences to mine, has more similarities and I have a feeling that there are heaps of people who will be listening to this today. Will feel the same as I have. This guy has so many liars, his honesty and acceptance of himself as something that I have the deepest admiration for. Enough said by me. Here is the story. 00:03:21 Andrew I really appreciate this time you've taken to talk with me today and considering that's something we have in common, and that's the ability to miscalculate the time zones. I'm really glad this is happening now! Last time I spoke, or we spoke. You just got back from Puerto Rico and you've recovered from that. 00:03:44 Billy I did, I did, and since then I I went in another trip, another work trip down there to San Juan and just came back a few hours ago. Just flew up this afternoon. 00:03:54 Andrew Alright, did you? Was that an overnight or? 00:03:57 Billy Yeah, it was. Actually, it was just it. Was a simple three day trip one leg down to Puerto Rico Day one with a Dominican Republic turn the next day, and then another Dominican Republic turn this morning. And then dead -Head back up to New York. 00:04:15 Andrew Alright, anytime for any surfing or was just a very quick layover? 00:04:20 Billy Yeah. One very quick layover in another longer wet layover, but there was no waves and the water was kind of dirty, kind of dirty -seaweed Sometimes, and one of those times I hung out by the pool and read a book and got some food. And you know, typical overnight. 00:04:37 Andrew Yeah, it sounds terrible. 00:04:38 Billy Horrible, horrible. 00:04:40 Andrew I'm glad you made it from that ordeal, so that's pretty good. So yeah, we spoke fairly recently because I had heard your just the abbreviated story of your life at HIMS conference. And I've Absolutely fascinating. So we sat down not so long ago and you told me the unedited version, and I thought it's such an amazing story. Maybe we should record it this time. So here we are. 00:05:14 Billy Right, OK, I don't know about amazing story, but yeah, sure let's do it. 00:05:19 Andrew It is what it is, yeah, so I guess if we start from the early days, you're born and raised in the New York City area, is that right? 00:05:32 Billy Yeah, yeah, that's correct. So I'm like third generation. Irish American and my whole family. I'm on both sides came over from Northwestern Island over to Brooklyn, Brooklyn, NY. Back in, you know, with age. You know my family just kind of - we stayed here, you know we I have no family anywhere else in the country but in York and I grew up on the islands about. About 30 minutes from 30 miles or I guess in kilometres over that beyond 50 kilometers maybe. 00:06:04 Andrew Yeah yeah 50 yeah yeah. 00:06:06 Billy From Manhattan, from New York, from the city, and I grew up out there in a very working class, working class neighborhood. 00:06:16 Andrew Yeah, OK, alright and so grew up there and then. I guess you were sort of keen on flying but I remember you telling me that that wasn't the first career that you had - it was a teacher. Yeah, so what I did is when, you know there's a whole bunch of different things I always wanted to do, and I was always kind of told that I couldn't do them. I wasn't smart enough, wasn't quick enough, wasn't good enough. That kind of thing. You know, we hear that a lot in these rooms. I didn't really get the -all of the support I guess I needed to, you know to be free really, so I ended up what I was always told was just get a job with good benefits and good health insurance. You know something we need in the states, and you know, So I went to college to be a teacher, a technology education teacher which is. It's otherwise known as industrial arts like so I was teaching at the high school level. I had an architectural drawing class. I had a transportation class, you know where we basically taught the kids how to rotate tires and change oil on cars. And you know how an airplane flies that basic kind of thing, but. But  Yeah, so that that was my first career. That was my first career. Was teaching an all throughout college and. All my 20s rose I bartended also I was a -and you know it wasn't really a side job cause now, in places like New York, it's  such a high paying job who, you know, to be a bartender that it took up took up a lot of time. 00:07:51 Andrew Yeah, right 00:07:52 Billy And as a budding alcoholic, I enjoyed that much more than the teaching, and I excelled at it and I had friends and I had to go to different ba...

Are we seeing a plateauing of Amazon? Those who think that any type of e-commerce conducted outside of Amazon is a dead-end are dead wrong. Today we welcome back Andrew Youderain to discuss his third annual State of the Merchant Report for 2019. If you've never read or heard us talk about the report, it's a comprehensive report of all things e-commerce that comes from Andy's exclusive database of real entrepreneurs, all running physical product e-commerce businesses. With more than 400 qualifying merchants completing the questionnaire, the report covers an array of important topics including growth and conversion rates, profitability stats, advertising ROI, and even one surprise question about ways our members would fulfill their biggest indulgences. We'll go over all the questions, responses, and the surprising trends in e-commerce for 2019. Episode Highlights: What is providing the best return on investment in terms of advertising? The facebook marketing factor, why it's so different, and how can be tricky. A shout out to email marketing as a very valuable and viable advertising tool. The reality of advertising fatigue and the big three – Google, Amazon, and Facebook. The typical store owner makeup and whether dropshipping is coming to an end. Surprising gains in manufacturing of original merchandise. The impact of the new tariffs on the surveyed businesses. Does everything seem to be growing? We discuss general growth rates in the e-commerce industry. The surprising thing we learned from the survey this year regarding Amazon. The place for premium and niche products. Andrew's top three takeaways from the survey. A rise in Chinese sellers on Amazon and what that means for e-commerce merchants and counterfeiting. Andrew's view on the FBA nexus and the state to state tax impact for his community of clients. The fun and surprising final question in the survey. Transcription: Joe: Mark back in Savannah I think it was 2016 was the 2nd time I ever went to eCommerceFuel. In a great location because I could drive there and it was a beautiful, beautiful location. And I was so proud because I brought copies of my e-book some would call it a book called 10 Steps to Selling your Amazon Business and this is back in '16. We're talking years ago. And so I thought I was at the forefront of things. And then Andrew does his presentation at the beginning of eCommerceFuel events which was really the state of commerce back then and what we've had him on the podcast about what this podcast today is about. The 1st thing he talks about is how few of the eCommerceFuel attendees are using Amazon; like less than 10%. And it was a very small part of their business and that Shopify and other channels were much, much bigger. And I was slightly mortified. But then the next year, the biggest growth I think in 2018 that we saw—actually it was at '17 because we stated e-commerce from Andrew in 2018 and the biggest growth factor was Amazon. And now that you've had him on again I think that that's changed a little bit, right? Mark: That's right. In this year's State of the Merchant Report from eCommerceFuel, they've found that this is the 1st year that non Amazon e-commerce stores outpaced Amazon as far as new sales channels which is pretty amazing when you think about the impact. The quote directly is this was the 1st year non Amazon sellers grew faster than those on the platform. So there's more growth happening off of Amazon among their members than on the Amazon platform. That's pretty remarkable to hear that because it feels like feels like everybody's on Amazon. And we've often preached this idea of having diverse revenue streams and making sure that you're being multichannel with your revenue streams and platforms but you and I know a lot of Amazon sellers that have gone all in on Amazon so that they could just focus on the growth there to get as much sales blossomed there as they can because it's easier to do than trying to manage multiple channels. Those who think that outside of Amazon e-commerce is dead; it's not at all, not even close. There is a couple of other interesting things that came out of this report and I'm going to let Andrew really get into some of the things that he found impressive. But one of the things that that stood out to me was the effectiveness of Facebook as a marketing channel. It seems like everyone we talked to always says Facebook is such a great marketing channel and if we could just figure it out and what my experience has been is that everybody's trying to figure it out. Which means it's really difficult to actually do. I think those that have "figured it out" are doing well. But among the people that responded to this really lengthy survey that Andrew puts them through Facebook ads came in as the 5th most effective sales channel or advertising channel that people were reporting. And the ROIS, the media in ROIS was a full point lower than the next highest. And again we'll let Andrew talk about some of these things because I'm sure he has more insights than I do into the report itself. From just a general like where are you in the market as an e-commerce business or when you're looking to buy and identifying the right trends and the types of businesses that are going to be around for the next several years a report like this is just invaluable, right? You get to see where a business is going, where the industry is going, and maybe where the next opportunities lie. Joe: Yeah and it comes directly from the eCommerceFuel membership database. As far as I understand it Andrew sends a survey out and collects all of this data and all of this information so it's from real entrepreneurs down in the trenches running their businesses; physical product e-commerce businesses. So if anybody is out there that is looking to grow their business outside of Amazon this report can help. If anybody's buying a business and wants to take it beyond Amazon this report can help. If you're on Shopify and you want to learn the other channels, what number 2, 3, and 4 are before that 5th one that's most effective being Facebook this report can help. And it comes from Andrew. There are very few people in the industry that are as good character as Andrew and the folks at eCommerceFuel. Mark: Oh I was just about to say that now. A shout out for the good guys Andrew is certainly one of those. So let's get into this discussion between Andrew and I on this report and find out what some of the insights he [inaudible 00:05:59.2]. Joe: Let's go to it. Mark: Andrew, thank you so much for coming back on to the podcast. You were on last year and we talked about the awesome report that you guys do over at eCommerceFuel; the State of the Merchant Report. And this is where you survey a lot of the members of your community which we've talked about here on the Quiet Light Podcast, Joe and I talked about it quite a bit. One of our favorite conferences, one of our favorite communities out there for high revenue e-commerce store owners; it's a fantastic community that you built there. And you do this report every year. It's a really good pulse of what's going on in the world of e-commerce. So thank you again for joining us. Andrew: Yeah thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And good work with the podcast. I'm enjoying the Quiet Light Podcast. I kind of love your episodes and yes you're putting up good stuff; you and Joe. But your episodes seem to have just a tiny edge on Joe's. I don't know maybe it's just in my mind but regardless you guys are doing awesome, awesome stuff. Mark: Yeah I'm just going to record that. I'm going to put it on a loop and I'm just going to send it to Joe a few times so he can hear that over and over again. You need to submit at some point we've been adding these movie quotes to our intros at random so you need to listen to those and tell us what you think it is and we'll give you a shout out. I don't know what they are myself so I'm excited about this. I'm excited to talk about this year's report because you always come out with just some really fascinating bits of data. And I'm going to start with one that I've run across a decent amount because I think it really speaks to a lot of buyers are thinking about when they're evaluating an online purchase and also sellers who are looking to scale their business and this is what is providing the best return on investment at this point in terms of advertising? Facebook is often quoted you know if we could just unlock Facebook and this is something that I want to get into a little bit here but your report showed some surprising numbers with where the most value is and where some of the lowest hanging fruit is for advertising. Andrew: Yeah so there are a couple of things that are new this year. I wanted to take a look at what merchants are using the most in terms of promoting their business; so what's most popular and then also what's the most effective because often those are not the same thing. And so you look at the most popular marketing channels and we just ask people what are you using and in the number of popularity 1st was email marketing, 2nd Facebook ads, 3rd was Google AdWords, 4th was SEO, and 5th was Instagram. And so then we—of course, it was a popularity—to get a sense of what was most effective we looked at okay, of the people that are using every single one of these things we asked about which, how many, what percentage of them ranked that specific one as the most effective? And the one that came to the surface wasn't even the top 5 that we talked about. The number one most effective marketing channel reported by merchants was Amazon Ads. Over half of people running Amazon Ads said it was the best highest ROI marketing channel to use, number two is e-mail marketing, three was SEO, 4th was Google AdWords, and like a distant 5th not even like a close 5th, but a distant 5th was Facebook Ads. And another thing that we explored was the average return on Ad Spend for Facebook Ads versus Amazon and Google and they had the lowest return on Ad Spend at 3.4 compared to Amazon at 4.6 and Google at over 5. And they're increasing of the costs on the Facebook platform were growing up the fastest as well; almost 20% versus 16 for Amazon and 10 for Google. So that was kind of the Facebook—I think a lot of people, so many people are doing it and it's easy to have like almost some fear of missing out if you're not doing it or if you're doing it like you're not getting the secret when everyone else is. But I think it's a harder nut to crack than people like to admit. And those were some of the numbers based on the advertising. Mark: Yeah there's a lot that I want to get into on this here and let's see if I can remember all of it but I want to 1st talk about the Facebook ads because you put it in that way; it's a tough nut to crack. And I wonder if that's really maybe some of the secrets that's going on behind these numbers with the EBIDTA ROIS and also the effective marketing channel. We've had Ezra Firestone on the podcast here before. He's a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage. He obviously is a big advocate of Facebook advertising. I've seen some other people who have been doing Facebook Ads with a lot of effectiveness but and this is the big caviar, it takes a while to figure that part out. And a lot of these guys have gotten there where they're seeing these ROIS of five plus, they've taken months—literally months and lots of dollars down the drain to really get to that point. I'm wondering and maybe you looked into this a little bit with the survey; did you look into people that have tried Facebook marketing and maybe gave up after two or three months because they couldn't get it to work or did you not look that deep or ask that deep of a question? Andrew: Yeah I didn't go quite that deep. And it's always tough designing the survey because it's already like 50 plus questions and I'm trying to balance—making sure we get people who get all the way through it with you know what are the critical things we get. So sadly I didn't get that kind of data. A lot of the kind of the fox and the stories behind people getting into Facebook and having a hard time with it are more anecdotal that I hear from people. And so sadly yeah I wish I had some good numbers and data behind it but it's more anecdotal than anything else. Mark: I mean look there's a couple of things on here on your top; 5 Amazon Ads, e-mail marketing, SEO, and Google AdWords. So let's go through here with Amazon Ads, SEO, Google AdWords; those are all high intent advertising channels, right? So if somebody goes online and says buy shoes or buy cheap shoes or best running shoes; that's a really high intent search, Facebook Ads not so much of a high intense search, e-mail marketing side if they're on your list that already a warm contact. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we're seeing that but the other side of this too that I would say is like if you're looking to create a market and let's say you have kind of an odd channel, maybe you take a spin on a new type of ice cream scooper that doesn't get stuck ever. So the ice cream never gets stuck in that ice cream scooper and you've invented this and you're going to sell it; well nobody knows that it exists. So it might take a while to build that market and so Facebook Ads might be a good source for that because you can have that proof of concept and really kind of educate the marketplace. But it's also going to take a little bit more work to get people to really peak their attention. Andrew: Yeah Facebook is just a totally different mindset for advertising. It's really great if you're good at targeting if you're good at—the way you build a funnel is just totally different. It's more so about you get to be able to catch people when they're doing something else, get their attention, pull them off the platform or engage them for a while and then pull them off versus being able to drive a sale short term. I think it's a longer term game and just a different mentality you need to have if you're going to do it well. And targeting too with Facebook I think is getting trickier [inaudible 00:12:57.7] that some of the targeting the traffic that Facebook had been sending hasn't been converting as well for some members and some people I know. So that's a big part of Facebook performing well as them sending you people that are based on their intelligence they know are going to work well. So yes it's interesting. Mark: Yeah talking to crack I think is the best way to describe it. So I do think it's a viable source but you've got to have the right type of product and you really have to know what you're doing with it and be patient. I mean that's just a lot with these; Amazon I'm not surprised at all, still a very young marketplace so I think we're still seeing kind of those numbers equalize out. Talk about a high intent marketplace and high intent searches so I think that makes complete sense they're number one on the list. And let's give a shout out to email marketing probably the old man in the room there, right? Andrew: Yeah although it's funny I think about if you look at email and even email it's still of course you know the number two most effective marketing channel and it's still highly—super valuable but I feel like even probably it's getting harder. I think advertising, in general, is getting so much more difficult because we've had so much of it—a part of it is fatigue; just advertising fatigue. And you've got three main giants who control so much of it and they're kind of squeezing all of the juice out of it they can with rising ad prices but even my email inbox I don't know about you Mark but I'm way more ruthless now with my email. I've got a ton of filters set up. I have used like unroll.me to unsubscribe from a lot of stuff because you have to. Because I'm looking to change my email address in the next couple of months to just have a team address to really focus on because it's—the levels most of the messages coming at us are increasingly just –they just keep going up and up and up. And so I don't know, it would be interesting to see if anything comes up in the next two, three, four years where—that it makes it able to get through all of that noise. Because it's getting—just any advertising, in general, is just getting a lot harder because there's just so much out there. Mark: You know I really think it comes down to the personalization. Email marketing, you're right I mean email it's a complete mess and now I use Gmail, we use Gmail, Google Apps throughout Quiet Light Brokerage and they tab everything down in that promotions or updates or forums tab. And I'll tell you what I don't look at promotions ever. Basically, its spam light is what it is and so you just throw all that stuff away. I go through it every few days and select all and hit the archive. Coming through that though like having personalized messages, very, very hyper focused hyper personalized messages I think that's really the only way that people are going to be able to survive with that email marketing. That's tough, that's not easy to do. Andrew: You know I agree and I think—you know I did a podcast with somebody earlier this year and they have an antiques business and every week they send out an email on Saturday and at the click through rates are like 25%. I talked to him about how he was doing this, I mean trying to get some secret out of it and there wasn't any secret. It was that he spent hours and hours and hours on an email that was totally unique and it was amazing deep interest level to the customers and people open it. And like I look at the email that we have that goes out to our private communities [inaudible 00:16:34.2] it's not nearly as good as his is but just that so much smaller group only about a thousand people but we're able to get it. It takes a lot of time to put together but it gets generally open rates of close to 50%. Mark: Let's move on here to another thing. I want to talk about the anatomy of a store owner. You put together a really nice simple graphic on the link to the report and I will link to this report here in the show notes and we'll also throw it into an email as well. So people listening to this take a look at the email coming through from Quiet Light Brokerage but I want to talk about the makeup of the store owner. Drop shipping seems to be kind of on the losing end of things these days. Andrew: Yeah I feel like it's had some pretty strong headwinds for the last couple of years. And this year the number—every year we ask and we look at what percentage of store owners is a certain type of business model; drop shipping, manufacturing, private label, hybrid, or reselling products. And this year the number of drop shippers that reported got cut in half. So only 8% of people this year down from 16% last year were drop shippers which is a pretty huge—just a massive cut. And if you look at the number of manufacturers that we're reporting that reports for the survey that was up by almost a 3rd by 32%. So it seems like a lot of those—this has been a couple of narratives that have been talked about for a couple of years now but it's really playing out in the numbers. Mark: Yeah I think so as well. What's funny though is we had somebody on recently to talk about drop shipping and they were killing it. They were doing a great job with drop shipping. So I feel like it's one of these areas where for a while there were Ad Sense sites, a pretty number of Ad Sense sites all over the place, a bunch of those got wiped out and the general thought was this is kind of a dead business model. Well, I've seen some of them come by and those people that actually survived through that and how they got some strong, strong businesses. I feel that way with drop shipping a little bit. Like if you can survive these head winds you've got something good. Andrew: It's funny you say that Mark because when I looked at the revenue growth by business model and the income growth by a business model guess who was leading the pack on both of those metrics? It was drop shippers. And I think what happened is exactly like you said there's a little bit of a Darwinism at play here where a lot of the herd got thinned out and the people that were left were able to make it work well. And I think you're actually right it definitely can work in some models. I think it's much harder to get the things to all align and get a model where it works well for reasons that—I guess I don't want to get into on the show right now but if you can get it right I mean it's a great business model because no inventory, no upfront cash, no cash flow issues, location independent. If you get it to work right it's a pretty good gig. Mark: It really is but it seems to be so dependent on the product and also your relationships as well because obviously, the problem with drop shipping is competition. It's so easy just to spin up something and compete directly with you and you get the sort of you bicker with a sort of marketplace of every product that is exactly the same, same images and everything else. It's tough to work in that area. On the flip side—so like I like to think about this on a spectrum. On one side we have drop shipping where you can see the products sometimes you get into reselling which might be a little bit of a step away from that drop shipping where you're still doing with some physical product but it's not yours. And then you go all the way over to the other side of the spectrum and you get these unique manufactured products, some of them private labeled but the most extreme would be hey I invented something or I've created a product and you're seeing some pretty big gains in that area. Andrew: Yeah I mean the number of manufacturers like I mentioned was up a 3rd this year. If you look at also not just the number of people that are doing it but the benefits that they're seeing and the pay off, so we tracked gross margin, net margin for those—for all these different types of sellers and manufacturers and by far the largest gross margin at 53%, the highest net margin at 21% and those were up year over year too for each category. I think the gross margin for manufacturers was up from 45% percent up to 53 and the net was up as well. So yeah I think manufacturers are—it's a harder business, there's less of a roadmap, it's more capital intensive, it's more stressful but if you're able to crack it more and more people are going that way. It's really the only way I feel like you can play on Amazon these days because if you're going to try to go resell someone else's product on Amazon you're going to get destroyed. And it's where a lot of people seem to be going and getting paid for. Mark: Yeah I think all those things that you talked about; the stress, no roadmap, everything else there's a flip side of that. It's defensible, right? Because there's no roadmap you're not going to have everybody saying oh I know exactly how to do this. It is difficult to do and figuring out how to get that manufacturing [inaudible 00:21:21.3] done is tough. Did you ask people and if you only have just kind of from what you've heard in the community obviously China I would guess would be the number one sourcing location for most people manufacturing, what other countries are you hearing from some of the members on the community that—where people are sourcing products? Especially when we're recording this—I don't know when we're going to air this episode but when we're recording this we're staring down potentially more tariffs going on with China. Obviously, this is going to impact everybody selling from China so finding other sources would be great. Have you heard of any other countries that seem to be emergent? Andrew: That's a great question and the honest answer is no. I mean there are people in Asia—I hear occasionally about people sourcing in Taiwan which depending on who you ask is China or isn't. Vietnam is another one that comes up but apart—and you know some people I know occasionally hear their source from India or make their things in Canada or someone I met with recently is building some footwear in Mexico. So there definitely are some other places people get certain things but in terms of a potential runner up to China that could even remotely start to be an alternative to where people are manufacturing 90% of things I don't think of someone who's pulling away or even you know accelerating at all. It's kind of just a whole bunch of a lot of different options all over. So not really an emerging source for manufacturing that I'm seeing. Mark: That's a little disappointing but not surprising. I mean wouldn't it be great to have something on this side of the ocean where we could maybe just pull up from Central America instead of having to—I talked to some of these store owners and they're talking about three months plus lead times where you're committing capital and then that goes on the ocean and it takes—I can't imagine how difficult that would be. Andrew: Oh yeah it would be really hard and you know it's one thing we did ask this year was did tariffs impact your business and granted I know we're talking you and I are both in the States, I know a lot of people listening aren't in the States but probably the vast majority of 85% or so of respondents for the survey are US based or 75% rather but we asked did tariffs impact your business this year? And over a 3rd of people, the 36% said the tariffs meaningfully hurt their business this year. And like you just alluded to they are only getting more from slapped on. So it's a big deal and it'd be nice to have a silver lining; maybe be that sourcing out of some of the countries closer to us maybe, maybe get a boost. Mark: Yeah that'd be interesting. Hey if anybody has an idea on where we can craft and not let me know. That'd be great to get that part out. Let's go to like some of the Sunday news here and that is everything seems to be growing. You know I started Quiet Light Brokerage right before we hit that great recession so a lot of my entrepreneurial journey has been slogging through a difficult economy. It seems like from what we're seeing we're in a bull market right now. Andrew: It seems really strong. So we—looking at growth rates over time, and again these are the average merchant—the average e-commerce store owner reporting for the survey was right around 3 million. So that's relatively small when you look at the macro economy, if you look at e-commerce trends, in general, they're probably could be growing closer to 20% plus or minus but for this segment of store owners if you look at the growth trend over 3 years, 2017 it was about 25%, last year it jumped way up to almost 37%, and this year it's down a touch to 36% but still meaningfully about the same. So revenue growth is good, income growth has also remained real strong and if you look at the conversion rates too and it's just continued to go up the last two years. I mean the conversion rate we're looking at this year was over 3% up from 2.60% last year. And in terms of like our earlier margins are up so all in all for store owners things are good, growth is good, margins are good, the conversion is great and it's kind of a boom time is the right word. But it's definitely—things are robust and healthy out there for stores in this segment. Mark: Yeah that's fantastic. One of the surprising things that I've seen from the report and we talked about this last year and I know Joe tells me and we mentioned this in the introduction to this episode here that the very 1st eCommerceFuel Live that he attended he brought a book on 10 Steps to Selling Amazon Business. You asked at one point to raise your hand if you're selling on Amazon and it was only a small portion of the room that did so. And he was thinking oh man I completely missed the mark bringing this book. Well, we've seen this number increase over the years although this year from—unless I've got [inaudible 00:26:19.5] I'm not reading this backwards, it looks like you have a decline in people that are selling on Amazon and an increase in people that are not selling on Amazon. Is that really what you're seeing? Andrew: Yeah I wouldn't say a decline but I would say a plateauing of something in the report that I wrote I call it like a plateauing Amazon—I hesitate to use the word peak Amazon because every time that I think that they've peaked anything they blow up and accelerate to the moon. But looking at like three examples here, or three data points; if you look at the number of merchants who just sell on Amazon or they don't. A couple of years ago 49% last year, it was 55% so a fairly meaningful jump. This year that number barely budged; it went from 55.2% to 55.8%. So up a little bit but wildly decelerating. Along the same lines if you look at group sales from Amazon last year, two years ago they were up really sharply and this year they barely budged; 27.6 to 28.2% of the total sales that all of the merchants generate coming from Amazon. And this is maybe the most surprising number. If you look at just the revenue growth of stores that sell on Amazon versus don't last year stores that sold on Amazon grew faster than stores that didn't. And this year stores that don't sell on Amazon actually grew faster than stores that do by a small margin which is just really, really surprising. So I think that there's so much here. We could do a whole episode on I don't think Amazon is going anywhere, I think they're going to be shaping the e-commerce landscape for the next 5 to 10 years. But I do think a lot of merchants are starting to really struggle with counterfeit issues, with increasing fees, with loss of control, with feeling like they're totally beholden to Amazon, and a lot of host of other issues. And they're not getting off the platform but the number of merchants that are saying hey yeah let's go hitch our wagon, go to Amazon and sell there—and some people are just deciding to leave the platform altogether. So one of my predictions and here I'm almost certain that it could be wrong because I'm going out on a limb is that next year is the 1st year we see the percentage of stores selling on Amazon actually decrease year over year. So we'll see when that happens. Mark: Yeah that's interesting. I wonder if shopper's behavior is changing at all and just again you just can't draw any conclusions from this here but I know for myself I've become more of a diversified shopper than I have in the past. I still use Amazon probably like 4 or 5 times a week, I'm still a really heavy Amazon shopper but I'll actually look around a little bit off of Amazon as well. And if I get the chance to order directly from a store I do so. Now that's probably just because I worked with so many entrepreneurs that have these stores and I know the benefits for them. But there's something nice about that specialization, right? If you think about the big box stores and how they couldn't specialize in any sort of gear but if you want something high end and specialized, it makes sense that there is somebody that actually does specialize in that. It's pure speculation on my part of course. Andrew: No. I think you're absolutely right. I think we're going to see in the next 5 years a real hollowing out of e-commerce where you have Amazon; if there's something you'd know you want to buy it's more of a commodity or a fairly inexpensive product that I think Amazon is going to be the place you go to get it quickly and cheaply and efficiently. But I think for anything else, for merchants I think the place to really thrive and survive over the next 5 years is to have a premium product or a very niched product; ideally, one that you manufacture. Like just for example yesterday I called up and I was in the market for a nice bike rack for my vehicle. And I went into a lot of research and the company I ended up buying it from I ended up talking to him on the phone for 35, 40 minutes. They custom manufacture in the United States, they ship that to me and it's that kind of thing. They have an incredible product and they don't sell on Amazon surprisingly because they don't need to. Because everyone that wants the site or this product they go right to them and they don't want to give up the marginalized control and guessing. And I think those are the kind of merchants that are going to do really well in the next 5 plus years. And I think that's kind of the best place to be going forward if you're not going to be on Amazon. Mark: Yeah. I would agree 100%. I think just from a long term sort of defensibility mindset and that's what I've seen and I actually see it on Amazon as well, the companies that are doing really, really well long term Amazon really care about their products. And they're spending a lot of time on that product development cycle and doing their research and trying to make sure that they have something that's a high quality product. But then they're also looking outside of that as well and becoming specialists in that space which makes a big difference. With everything that you surveyed here was there any one or two things that really stood out to you as being surprising this year or would inform you if you were an owner of an e-commerce business yourself that you would definitely want to take action on? Andrew: I think the big things were the massive shift and we kind of touched on this but the massive shift of people going away from drop shipping and into manufacturing. And the benefits financially that those manufacturers we're seeing. That would be a big one. The other one was the Facebook ones we talked about where Facebook Ads really are definitely at the back of the pack especially relative to their popularity in terms of effectiveness. So those would be probably two of the big things and then in terms of Amazon just I think it still makes—it can make sense if you have a great product that's proprietary. It doesn't—if you do it carefully I don't think you shouldn't go on Amazon but just the fact that so many people are kind of hitting the brakes on that or at least new entrance in saying aren't rushing in as head long as they were before I think is pretty telling. So nothing new there Mark that we haven't talked about but three things if I was in the middle of kind of defining strategy or starting it from scratch I think would be things I would think really carefully about. Mark: You said earlier in the episode here with advertising how much more difficult it's become. And I generally think that what we're seeing with the Internet and Internet based businesses and we've been seeing this pretty much since the time I started as an entrepreneur 20 years ago now is this maturation of the businesses where I think they're all getting more difficult to do. And you look at this and you think oh man that's such a bummer. I know I talked to some friends who are entrepreneurs back in the early 2000s and we kind of reminisce about the quarry days of Amazon was a thing of the website waiting for the movie dance to happen and now all of a sudden they're making gobs of money. But what do we learn from all that? We learned that dries up and disappears pretty quickly. The people that are surviving are the ones that are embracing some of these challenges and looking at them saying I'm going to build something really sustainable, a real product and they're doing great. They're doing really good. And that bears out in some of your numbers. Andrew: Yeah and one thing—it absolutely, absolutely does and I think one thing for you to touch on in terms of Amazon and in terms of sourcing in more of a macro level, if you look at one of the things we asked it was what are your most common struggles, what macro changes are you seeing, and what are your future plans? And one of the macro changes that came up the 1st time this year on the top top list was the number of Chinese sellers that were coming into Amazon. And I think I saw a stat today that 40% of the top Amazon sellers in 2019 are Chinese sellers versus 26% two years ago. And so A. on one level you have just a lot more competition directly from factories who are the low cost provider. Which isn't a bad thing for consumers in and of itself but it's harder for merchants. And if those sellers don't have the same kind of quality standards; some of them do, some of them don't, and you also run into problems. But you also have a lot of—one thing I've noticed is a lot of counterfeit issues. This has been in the news. We've had a number of members in our community who have had problems with this when they had a product it got knocked off and then these people—you know a lot of overseas sellers started selling this product directly in competition with the original manufacturer which was really problematic because the quality wasn't as good. And so consumers got it and it really hurt the brand because they assumed it came from the original source when it didn't. And so you see I think this also ties back into Amazon and why people are getting a little bit more careful about that platform is because there are some meaningful counterfeit issues out there that again going back to the difficulties of manufacturing that merchants are having to face that weren't really as much of an issue two, three years ago. Mark: That would be interesting to see what happens with that platform. And also I'm going to touch on one last bit of the report here that you spent some time on and that is the impact of politicians and judges and we've covered two areas; we were already talked about tariffs briefly and how many were impacted by that. I think the other big elephant in the room and it's been there for several years and we've talked about it a ton here at Quiet Light Brokerage and that is the FBA Nexus. Do you have Nexus, are you filing those sales taxes in different states, and you still have a very small percentage [inaudible 00:35:49.6] to the speaking of your community that was paying those sales taxes. I think 21% is what I'm seeing is that right? Andrew: Yup that's correct. So the percentage of sellers who have Amazon inventory that is filing for sales tax, [inaudible 00:36:04.0] sales tax in any state that they have "FBA Nexus" whether or not you agree that [inaudible 00:36:10.1] Nexus. Yeah only about a quarter of merchants are submitting sales tax to those states. Mark: And do you have any idea why such a small percentage? I mean obviously nobody wants to pay taxes and that it's a pain to most people. I've run into sellers who make the argument that it's really not—oh there's no legal basis for it. Andrew: I think it's a couple of things. I think one it's it is potentially disputable whether or not and again this is something I need to personally do a deep dive on but from the very—this is where things get dangerous when I talk but from the very little I know I don't know if it's—I don't believe it's that very crystal clear, there's a whole lot of present presidents that said yes this does definitively give you Nexus. And it could be a state by state issue as well. So I think that's part of it. I think the 2nd part of it is thinking about—so because it's a gray area you can have more people who start thinking on a risk basis. What are my risks I submit? What are my risks if I don't? Also relative to the workload because it's not just about the tax; I mean if it was mostly about the tax and the administering this and the managing of it was really easy and you didn't have any you know long term liability or exposure to being audited I think most merchants would say hey it's a little inconvenience but let's go ahead and let's set this up. You can snap your fingers I'll collect the sales tax; it's not a big deal. If it is a federal level it's much easier to do. I think you'd see that number jumped to 25 to 50% plus but that's not the case. Like you've got—it's hard to administer. You potentially open yourself up to dozens, hundreds, maybe even theoretically thousands of different municipalities who can audit you. You run the risk of getting on a sales tax agency's radar to come after you and maybe it wasn't before. So I think those are some of the reasons why people are not exactly thrilled at the thought of jumping in and waving their hand at taxation seasons saying hey here I am I'm not sure if I'm actually legally obligated to do this but come check me out. Mark: I completely get it. I get the risk versus reward analysis and frankly if I were a seller I would probably be among that 75% that's not collecting. Not that that's what I would advise here in my role because I know that if you do want to sell you got to be doing that right. And most buyers are looking at that and saying we want you to be paying those taxes. We don't want that to come back after us [inaudible 00:38:31.9] later on. But I mean from my opinion I think it's pretty legally shaky ground to say that people do have that Nexus. But the best practice from a selling standpoint would be to be filing so we do—I mean that's our default position here at Quiet Light is that you should be filing for sure without a doubt. But I would love to see this resolved within the next few years because it as if Amazon sellers don't have enough things hanging over their head. There's this potential like you said of being audited by the state of California or all of a sudden getting a bill for seven, eight, nine years of tax—what a mess. They need to get it together and figure this part out. Andrew: There's a little bit of encouraging news [inaudible 00:39:16.5] different sales tax issue we're talking about the FBA Nexus tax issue but the wayfarer versus South Dakota Supreme Court case that opened up the doors for states to tax inbound orders to their residents even if you don't have Nexus in the state as a whole opened up a whole other can of worms. And California I believe just passed some legislation that increases the threshold for—I think that the term for that is economic Nexus. They bumped that up meaningfully to half a million when before it was really low at like 100,000 and 200 transactions. So there's a little bit of encouraging news on some of that fronts and I believe there's been maybe half a dozen other states that either followed suit or are in process of doing that but its sales tax right now in the United States is just an absolute disaster. And I agree with you, I think we really need something at the federal level to clean it up because it's just a nightmare. I know people and I know you have to Mark that have sold their business not entirely based on but this definitely was a large part of the calculation thinking through I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to deal with the stress. I don't know with the liability and this is making business harder than it needs to be and I'm ready to be done. Mark: Yeah absolutely. Alright, we got to get to the most important metric that you've got and then wrap this up because we're actually long already with the episode. And you know what it is, it's your KPI the thing that you're focusing on the most. And in the past, you've learned stuff about your community rather be attacked by a swarm of angry bees and a bear and you say that they're crazy. I don't know the bear sounds pretty scary. But this year you asked what luxury gift would you pick; unlimited use of a private jet, $300,000 in annual income, a monthly lunch with anyone, or a tropical island and a house. So that 300k of annual income is that like forever? Andrew: That's forever. Yeah and I think overly weighted this one. I should have been all stench here with the annual annuity that you got because 2/3 of people picked the 300k income which yeah it's hard to argue against that. That's a pretty sweet little set up for life but like 10% picked the jet, about 13% picked the monthly lunch with anyone. That was my pick. I think like you can—I mean to be able to sit down once a month with the likes of U.S. presidents, heads of state, Nobel Prize winners. I mean you can't buy that. I think that'd be cool. Mark: Do you have to buy lunch? Andrew: You do. I should have included that. That was probably what the deal breaker was. Mark: Right. Because it's got to be a pretty nice lunch if you're going to have lunch with these guys. You're not just going down on like [inaudible 00:41:45.4]. Andrew: That's a good point. And then the last one was a tropical house, about 30% of people picked that. But yeah I mean to me this is I feel like it's going to a cornerstone—I suppose we can lead with this one actually Mark. I think next time maybe we mix things around and lead off of the Kardashian performance. Mark: You like to always put the best content at the end so that people will listen all the way to the end. Because where would your day be today if you hadn't learned that most people would take 300k annual income over a monthly lunch with anyone. I actually think you make a pretty valid point there. That would be pretty valuable. You can't buy a monthly lunch with anyone. That'd be tough. Andrew: Buffet—I think you could buy lunch with Buffett for—I don't know it's in the millions I think to have lunch with him. And he's just—I can imagine he's a pretty cool cat but yeah to build it up monthly with anyone; that's pretty cool. Mark: Yeah that is pretty cool. Alive and dead? Andrew: No, I don't think—I think it has to be alive. I didn't put that in there. If we had some inane abilities to be able to resurrect people, that would be pretty sweet. I'd put that in there too. I probably would have bumped it up a touch but I don't know, that 300k was pretty [inaudible 00:42:53.4] people. People like their cash. Mark: I think I could probably make 300k a year with some inane abilities. I'd be like one of those fortune tellers but I'm pretty sure I could spin that off into a pretty desk. Andrew: I know you could too. Mark: Hey thanks so much for coming on; tons of really good information. Go check out eCommerceFuel.com and the State of the Merchant Report. We will link to it in the show notes. We will be sending out an email to every one of our subscribers here on this. If you're not a member of the community are you taking applications right now Andrew? Andrew: We are. Yes, we are. Mark: Okay. If you're not a member of the eCommerceFuel community and you are an e-commerce seller you definitely need to check them out. I don't recommend a lot of groups. I don't recommend a lot of people or sites. We do so very stingily here at Quiet Light Brokerage but eCommerceFuel is one of our favorite groups out there. So please do check them out. Anything you'd like to end with Andrew? Andrew: No. I think that maybe two quick things; one if you want to check out the report directly its eCommerceFuel.com/2019-report that'll link you right to it. And then if you happen to be a podcast listener which I'm guessing you are, we also do a weekly podcast, sometimes twice a week on e-commerce, e-commerce news, store owners, kind of cutting edge just whatever is happening in the e-commerce world and strategy. That comes out weekly as well so if you're interested in that you can check that out [inaudible 00:44:15.2]. Mark: Yeah and you guys also sent out really good emails. I know we talked about email marketing and there's not a lot of people I feel add value to my inbox. I think you guys do a great job of adding value to my inbox. So definitely check out the community, check out the podcast and the report. And once again Andrew thanks for coming on. I look forward to having you on next year for the 2020 State of the Merchant Report. Andrew: Yeah. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. It's always fun to come on and great work with what you guys are doing in the online space with businesses. It's always fun to talk and I appreciate the invite. Links and Resources: Andrew's website State of the Merchant 2019 Andrew's Podcast