Podcast appearances and mentions of amanda nauman

Welcome back to the FunBound Podcast!We're thrilled to kick off this new season with none other than Amanda Nauman—two-time Unbound Gravel 200 Champion and gravel-racing icon.With over a decade of experience racing Unbound, Amanda brings invaluable insights and tips for tackling each of the event's distances. She's taken on nearly every course at Unbound, from the grueling 350 XL to the marquee 200 miler to the challenging 100 and 50-mile events.Gear up for the Unbound lottery as Amanda shares her expert advice and background knowledge on conquering any distance at UnboundFollow Amanda on her Instagram account: @amanda_panda_Also mentioned in the episode: Mammoth Tuff: @mammoth_tuffGravel Cycling Hall of Fame @gravelcyclinghofThe Fun-Bound Gravel Podcast is hosted by the Legans, Kristen and Nick. With years of Unbound and gravel coaching experience, they share their insights and those of their expert guests to help you have the best time possible at Unbound Gravel. Detailed course previews, equipment suggestions, training tips, and efficient checkpoints are just some of the topics discussed. And of course, you'll get to hear from the top athletes, organizers, and people who make gravel such a special cycling space. Follow Kristen on Instagram @kpleganFollow Nick on Instragram @nleganAlso check out Kristen's coaching services at Rambleur.com

We are coming to you LIVE from the stage in Emporia KS for this special Unbound Gravel preview show. Kathryn and Kristi are joined by Alison Tetrick, Sofia Gibson and Amanda Nauman. 2023 marks the first time that there will be a separate start for the pro women from the rest of the field, and the group weighs in on how they think this will affect race tactics for the women. Add in the dynamic of the “race within the race” for the Lifetime Grand Prix, and this is sure to be an exciting day. The group give their podium picks, as well as a few “dark mares” they think other competitors should have their eye on. Listen in to get the insider scoop ahead of tomorrow's race! Follow us on Instagram:@girlsgonegravel @feisty_media Girls Gone Gravel Website:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/ Feisty Media Website:https://livefeisty.com/ Register for the Girls Gone Gravelin' Festival - May 11-13, 2023:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/festival Support our Partners:The Amino Co: Shop Feisty's Favorite 100% Science-Backed Amino Acid Supplements. Enter code GRAVEL at Aminoco.com/GRAVEL to Save 30% + receive a FREE gift for new purchasers! Previnex: Get 15% off your first order with code GIRLSGONEGRAVEL at https://www.previnex.com/ Get 20% off at insidetracker.com/feisty JoJé: Use code FEISTY for 20% off one time purchases and subscriptions at jojebar.com Use code FEISTY15 for 15% off your first order at https://velorosacycling.com/

This week Kathryn and Brooke are coming to us live from the Sea Otter Classic in Monterey, California with an all-star lineup of interviews. We hear from: Hannah Shell, Starla Teddergreen, Hannah Otto, Julie Momber, Anna Yamauchi, Emily Newsom, Isabelle King, Lisa Leslie, Nikki Peterson, Lea Davison, Michelle Duffy, and last but certainly not least, Amanda Nauman. Sea Otter marks the kickoff of the 2023 Lifetime Grand Prix, and we hear what each of our guests are looking forward to most this season, as well as what they see coming in the future of women's cycling.Follow us on Instagram:@girlsgonegravel @feisty_media Girls Gone Gravel Website:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/ Feisty Media Website:https://livefeisty.com/ Register for the Girls Gone Gravelin' Festival - May 11-13, 2023:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/festival Support our Partners:The Amino Co: Shop Feisty's Favorite 100% Science-Backed Amino Acid Supplements. Enter code GRAVEL at Aminoco.com/GRAVEL to Save 30% + receive a FREE gift for new purchasers! Learn about Coalition Snow's Far Out trips at https://www.coalitionsnow.com/pages/far-out Get 20% off at insidetracker.com/feisty Get 20% off at jojebar.com when you use the code FEISTY20

Amanda Nauman has one of the most disarming nicknames in all of cycling: she is affectionately known as Panda. But make no mistake: behind the woman named after a docile creature is a fearless person, both on and off the bike. Amanda has taken on the toughest gravel events — and the toughest questions — that face our sport. She has won Unbound Gravel twice and taken 2nd in the 350 XL. She has won Mid South and BWR San Diego and is the 5X-champ at Rock Cobbler in Bakersfield, CA. Amanda is co-host of the Groadio Podcast and she sits on the Gravel Cycling Hall of Fame Advisory Board. She is co-founder of the Mammoth Tuff Gravel Race, puts on gravel camps, competed in the first LIfe Time Grand Prix, and has a demanding day job. Somehow all of that is packed into one person. We guarantee you'll love this conversation with the fastest and fiercest Panda you will ever meet.

Amanda Nauman is one tuff panda. And this episode is to prove it! This week, we welcome Amanda to share all about her journey to gravel, as well as her new race - Mammoth Tuff. The trio delves into what it means to have equal coverage, and opportunity in gravel, as well as how women can uplift one another in the sport.As the race director for Mammoth Tuff which had its first race in September of 2022, Amanda shares what it's been like to coordinate a gravel ride. Further, as a podcaster herself that advocates for women's coverage - Amanda shares her experience of advocating individually and how that has been received. @ amanda_panda_https://www.tuff.ventures/Follow us on Instagram:@girlsgonegravel @feisty_media Girls Gone Gravel Website:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/ Feisty Media Website:https://livefeisty.com/ Register for the Girls Gone Gravelin' Festival - May 11-13, 2023:https://www.girlsgonegravel.com/festival Support our Partners:Learn about Coalition Snow's Far Out trips at https://www.coalitionsnow.com/pages/far-out Get 20% off at insidetracker.com/feisty Get 20% off at jojebar.com when you use the code FEISTY20

This week we catch up with Amanda Nauman to discuss all things gravel. We touch on the Mammoth Tuff gravel race, Tuff Camps and how to continue to invite women into the sport.  Amanda is an OG in the sport and friend of the pod which made for a super enjoyable conversation.  Tuff Ventures Website Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm super stoked to invite back. Amanda Naaman. Amanda is a big time friend of the pod. A podcast or herself as the co-host of the grody. Podcast. A very accomplished off-road athlete. With notable wins twice. At Unbound 200. Five times at the rock cobbler, . We touch on rock cobbler this year, and some of the help she provided Sam aims with inviting and encouraging more female athletes to toe the line at this year's rock cobbler event. She and Dave Sheik are also the co-founders of the mammoth tough event in mammoth, California, which occurs in September. Each year She's a member of the gravel cycling hall of fame advisory board. And according to her. She's Walter, the dog's favorite. I'm not going to get into that domestic squabble, but we'll leave it at that. I'm excited to bring you a followup conversation with our friend, Amanda Naaman. Hi, Craig. How are you? I am doing great. It's so good [00:01:32] Amanda Nauman: to see you. Yeah, likewise. I'm excited. What, almost two and a half years [00:01:36] Craig Dalton: later. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the funny thing about our first recording I was recalling, we were doing an Instagram live at the same time. It was back when everybody was trying to figure out Instagram Live, so we were doing that. And recording our conversation and I ultimately posted it to the podcast Feed . [00:01:54] Amanda Nauman: Nice, nice. . [00:01:56] Craig Dalton: What am I sort of, I would say to the failed endeavor into Instagram Live. It's not something I, I jam on. I'm much more comfortable in the podcast format where I can just talk to people and publish it later. [00:02:08] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's hard and distracting. You get all the messages, you're like, what? What is that question? ? . [00:02:14] Craig Dalton: I feel like we have so much ground to cover. We were chatting a little bit offline, but I, I thought what would be an interesting place to start knowing you participated in the Lifetime Grand Prix in in 2020 2, 20 22. I just wanted to get your kind of overall perceptions as someone who's been around gravel racing for many years with that structure of your season. infused onto your life. H uh, how did it go and what were your thoughts on the, the lifetime Grand Prix in general? [00:02:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I signed up probably on the last day that was possible to turn in the applications that, um, winter before, cuz I really contemplated whether or not it was something that I wanted to do for a while cuz I knew. You know, I had done Unbound Excel. They had put Leadville on the list for the Grand Prix, and I was like, man, I've always wanted to do Leadville. I can kind of shape my calendar around the rest of the series as well. So ultimately I decided to sign up for it knowing, you know, it's kind of a shoe-in to Leadville, which is one thing I had always wanted to do. And at the same time, I get to do some gravel and some other mountain bike races that I hadn't necessarily done before. So I was very optimistic and excited about the Grand Prix last. . It didn't necessarily go how I had planned or anticipated, but uh, yeah, I think what they have created in the series and the opportunities for athletes to go race that, I think it's a great, a great thing and great structure for a lot of people, but it wasn't necessarily, let's say, the right fit for me last year. [00:03:44] Craig Dalton: Did that make sense? I mean, just for the listener's sake, like if you go back a few years before that as a gravel racer, how would you go about picking your Cal. [00:03:53] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I mean, there's just some of the marquee events that. I would've picked, you know, in 2019, like for sure rock cobbler, mid-South Belgian waffle ride San Diego. And then you'd go into Unbound, like for I think a California racer. That was sort of the way you would go. And then as summer happened, you know, you could pick and choose events. S B T I think was a was happening at that time. So it was a good summer. One gravel worlds. And then R P I. Was kind of sort of a season ender a little bit before you hit fall, and some people would race cycle lacrosse and whatnot. So that was kind of the loose structure, I think, at least in 2019. And then 20 20, 20 21, everything kind of changed and there was a big reevaluation of what was important in terms of picking events, going to events or not , and then, Yeah, in 2022, everybody had the opportunity to apply for the Grand Prix, so that changed things. But beforehand it was sort of what events were some of the big names going to, which ones had the most prestige, and, and if you were looking for sponsorship and stuff, you wanted to make sure you were at an event where there's enough competition there to show that let's say your results are are worth not. [00:05:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's so interesting to think, like, think of it from the professional athlete's perspective, going back prior to the existence of the Grand Prix, just the flexibility to kind of go do whatever you wanted and whatever was exciting to you. And then to see athletes be, uh, forced because as you said, this amazing opportunity and I think the Grand Prix. Fits so many people's needs right now. It does exclude certain events and it certainly does drive your calendar and just looking at it from the outside and maybe talking to a few athletes along the way, there's definitely an increased stress when you've, you've got this season long endeavor that you're pursuing and you're trying to get points at every stop. [00:05:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was where it caused me some stress last year because I got sick a couple times and the kind of sick where had it been a normal year, I just would've like pulled the plug and not gone to Sea Otter, for example, cuz that was the first one that I was sick for. and in hindsight, like I probably should have done that, but when you're in the moment you're like, no, I can't skip this cuz I only have one scratch race. I had to skip Schwa again because of Mammoth. So I was already in a tough situation of like, I have to do all of these other ones no matter what. And that was the stress for me, I think was feeling like I had to do this thing. And especially because last year we paid for it. So I was also like financially invested in the decision that I had made. Um, so yeah, for me, like I said, that that feeling. Wasn't perfect for me because. Bike racing isn't my only source of income. So it, I've always tried to go towards what I'm doing has to be fun because if not, then like, what's the point? It's not like the money puts food on the table for me. So I have that ability to say, Hey, I need to pick and choose things that are important to me. And I think I've come back a little bit more to that, uh, in 2023, which I would say I was at in 2019 for sure. Um, and then a period. A few years floundering of what, what was important for me, . [00:07:13] Craig Dalton: I know you guys at the Groo podcast did a really great episode with, I think it was Michelle Duffy talking, just talking about your, how you felt the season went at the Lifetime Grand Prix, and some suggestions and some questions. What were some of the key takeaways if you look back on that season to say, What would you recommend they changed in that program and did they ultimately end up doing that for [00:07:36] Amanda Nauman: 23? Yeah, I definitely, I asked some hard questions. I think he, I told chemo I was going to ask some hard questions and he was like, yeah, okay, But I, you know, I pulled some of them from like actual trolls on the internet that would say like these most. Outlandish things and you're like, really? Like, did you even pay attention at all? But I wanted to give them the opportunity to respond to some of that stuff. Like, like did, did social media matter? Or you know, how could you charge everyone money and all the ENT entry fees to go do this stuff? And kind of. Pinpoint some of the things that people had complained about, I would say. Um, and yeah, they changed a lot. I mean, at that time they had already made 2023, like no fees so people don't have to pay for the entry fees. Um, and I think they're doing a much better job with social media. And that was. , one of my major points that I wanted to drive with them was like the stuff that I was seeing, they had relied so heavily on the flow bikes deal that they had made. Yeah. And doing that live coverage and really just making sure that flow was going to do the storytelling for them and it just never happened. And that was my, my main frustration. in March, like before we went to Mid-South, Flo did one-on-one interviews with probably everyone, and they had all this great content that they put out before Sea Otter, and it was very in depth and it felt like everybody was telling their story and it was fun to follow that part of it. And then after Unbound, it just stopped. And then they had the issues in Utah and. . So ultimately for somebody like me, where being in the top 10 wasn't necessarily realistic and being in that midfield to back of the pack zone, I kept saying like, what is the point for somebody like me and somebody let, and now let's say somebody in the 20 to 30 range, what's the point of being in it if you're not giving me the exposure? that I want if I'm gonna be in the series and like, invest in this with you. And so I hope that that's the biggest thing that they change for this year is not relying on the flow stuff, probably expanding the storytelling to more than the top five at each event. Yeah. And, and being able to tell more of the story of everyone [00:09:52] Craig Dalton: I. Yeah, that would be interesting. I, I sort of, when I look through the list of writers, both male and female, and I think about like who, oh, who might I interview over the cross cost of the cross of the season, as you know, this isn't specifically a racing podcast. Yeah. But even if it was like, I can't get to all those athletes and it's almost like I just need to get a dart board, just throw a dart and pick someone that I don't know and interview because I think you're right. There's interesting. Across the board and the more that they can kind of create those personal connections with the athletes, the more excited people are gonna be to follow. [00:10:27] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, for sure. And I think, like chemo said, his major goal was to get non-endemic sponsorship into the sport and to get these athletes able to make a living off of it. Like those were his two main goals in making this series. And I was like, okay, if you do that, like you need to work more on the marketing side of it and you need to tell. All of the stories because if we're just gonna talk about the top five and we're only gonna pay the top 10, then what's the point of going 30 deep So . Yeah, like that's, I think, I think they get that now and they'll probably work more on that this year. But for sure, like I'm, I'm gonna have Anna Ya mochi on Groo next. And she just won rock cobbler and she's doing the Grand Prix and she's one of those like up and coming names where it's a really exciting story to follow and if they go the same route they did as last year, which is like, well, let's just focus on the top five hopefuls at each event, like she's never gonna get any coverage then So yeah, if they can expand the way that they tell those stories, I think that would be, [00:11:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Similarly, I just launched an episode with, uh, Ian Lopez, San Ramon, nice. 19 year old out of Northern California who's joined. He's the youngest person who's part of the series. Yeah, and it's just, I think it's just gonna be an interesting timestamp for. He and I to like look at this interview where he is at, what he's thinking about with his career in cycling and yeah, follow him throughout the [00:11:52] Amanda Nauman: year. Yeah, I love that [00:11:53] Craig Dalton: stuff. I love it. Yeah. So did you decide to, to throw your hat in the ring for 2023 in the Grand [00:12:00] Amanda Nauman: Prix? I did not, and mostly because I think of the experiences that I had in 2022 and not enjoying that stuck feeling. Um, if they had. another deal or contract, or if they had presented a way that they were going to do marketing for all of the athletes, I might have reconsidered it, but because we were just going blindly on the hope of like, yeah, we're gonna make it better than the year before, I was like, well, I'd rather focus on more of the stuff I think that I wanna do personally. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm optimistic about the things that they do change for this year. I just think it would've been cool for them to maybe present that upfront. [00:12:42] Craig Dalton: When you saw the call of a Lifetime series on YouTube, did that make you. They might be approaching it differently or what were your thoughts on that series? [00:12:50] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, I loved it. I think they, you know, they had told us initially that it was going to happen and before every race weekend they had said, Hey, if you're in the top three men or women, cuz they alternated. Genders throughout the the series. They told us all of that upfront and they said, if you are going to be in this top group, please make sure you make time for the interviews and all of that. So that part of it we knew was for sure happening. And they made some of the vignette videos highlighting some of the athletes, but it just wasn't, it wasn't everyone, and it wasn't clear how they were picking the stories to tell essentially. Um, So, yeah, I think they did a really good job with the series though. I, I joked that it's, like they said, make it like drive to survive with a little less drama, but, and a lot more cool bike racing. I think they nailed it pretty good. [00:13:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I enjoyed it as well. Yeah. With with the idea that you can drop two races and now it's up to seven races, do you think that would meaningfully change, like what your experience would've been? If that was the scenario last [00:13:54] Amanda Nauman: year, yeah. It would've eliminated some of that stress of feeling stuck or knowing that. you had a little bit more flexibility. Uh, yeah, I think that, that that format will be healthier for people and I think that is for sure something that they realized last year with some of the injuries that happened already, like Pete racing through when maybe he shouldn't have with his hand still hurting and pacing. So, um, yeah, just lessons learned, growing pains of how you set up a series from the get-go. [00:14:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that'll be interesting. I also think it'll be interesting if someone is riding through the series healthy. And just decides not to do something, you know, unbound obviously being a huge effort that maybe some people might not be suited for. At least that was the speculation last year. Yeah. Um, wondering like whether they'll just opt out of one and save one in their pocket for either a bad day or an illness or injury. [00:14:48] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, everybody was afraid of that and I felt like there were a lot of rumblings of like, oh, so-and-so's gonna skip unbound cuz they can. But I think peer pressure might have just went on that and most of them ended up just doing it. So maybe that'll keep happening. I think everybody kind of feels that is the marquee one and if you skip it, cuz it doesn't suit you and you one people will probably be like, well they didn't do unbound. So Yeah, [00:15:12] Craig Dalton: I could see. Yeah. Little, a little asterisks, by the way. [00:15:14] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Uh, well they chickened out on that one. . . [00:15:19] Craig Dalton: Love it. So what, what are some of your plans for 2023? Obviously, like over the last couple years, you've. Uh, become an event organizer with Mammoth Tuff, which we'll get into. Also started dabbling in gravel camps, which sound amazing. But why don't you just, let's talk through what 2023 is gonna look like for you for both erasing and other gravel endeavor perspective. [00:15:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, yeah, quite, quite a few people have asked me this, and I think it's important to. also reminds people again that like, this isn't my job, per se. You know, like I have a regular desk job. And so the way that I've approached anything has always been fun first in doing things that I want to do. Um, and last year my dad got sick a couple times and the business that I work for is my parents own it. And so, and it's just me and my brother that work for them. So I think we kind of had this like revelation of. All of this other stuff that we're doing isn't quite as important and putting my dad's health first and focusing on that kind of was, and it's one of those things where it puts stuff into perspective. And I'm like, yeah, I've been doing this bike racing stuff for a decade. It is, it has been a very selfish endeavor. And there are kind of other things. in my life that I would like to focus on. Um, so yeah, that, that's, that's the background to all of it, essentially. You know, it's not as easy of a decision as like, oh, well I'd rather race mid-south than Unbound. Like, it was, it was never really that simple for me. For 2023, it was kind of more like, mammoth is very important to me. Doing camps is very important to me. Having more time at work is also important to me. And, um, Going back to the goal that I had in 2020 of finishing the calera 500 was also a goal and something I wanted to do last year, but like I said, the like shiny object of the Grand Prix got in the way and I was like, oh, I could do this thing. So I just put that on hold for another year. Um, so I'd like to, to go back to that and try and finish it. Awesome. [00:17:20] Craig Dalton: Can you describe that, that attempt at Calera and what that [00:17:24] Amanda Nauman: is? Yeah. So it is the Calera 500. Um, the person who started it, his name is Alan Jacoby and he lives in Idaho now. So he doesn't live in Mammoth anymore, but he was a big tour divide fanatic. Um, and he came back to Mammoth after doing tour divide and was like, I need to do something similar here in my backyard. So he came up with Calera, which is a hundred fifty, two hundred fifty North and South Loops. And then the Calera 500, which is the big Mamma Jamma one. And most all of this is like, An Excel spreadsheet of maps and queues and like very rudimentary stuff. I think over the course of the next year or so, it will be a little bit more updated Ever since, um, one of the bike packing.com people did a feature story on it cuz he finished the 500 last fall. So with more attention, more eyeballs, I think it's going to gain popularity. But essentially they're just like really stupid hard bike packing routes in the area. And I think the fastest time on the 500 is just under five days. . So it's not really something that can be done in a couple, and it's more walking than you think, and it's, uh, a lot harder just because of the elevation and the massive climbs in the Eastern Sierra. So, . Yeah, that's, that's the backstory. There's a cool video that Niner put out in 2020 when I had first started it and kind of the goal of finishing it has is still, is still there looming over my head. I've had a couple of times that didn't go right, [00:19:01] Craig Dalton: and is it the type of thing now that in the bike packing community, it's this, Entity and people are starting to sort of check it off their list and make attempts to go at it fast. [00:19:12] Amanda Nauman: Barely. That's why I said like I think it'll gain popularity now that bike packing.com did a feature on it because I think they're only five or six guys that have ever finished the 500. I'm the only person to ever finish the one 50 South Loop. Um, yeah. So it's very, very grassroots. I mean, there are probably. 200 people in the Facebook group that know about it. Um, but yeah, if you are interested, there is a Facebook group. It is private, so you can just request access for it for anybody listening. But yeah, I would love to see it blow up. Like I think it's a, it's a really beautiful route. It's very challenging and hard, but if you're looking for a good reason to, to get away, it's a, it's a good one. [00:19:53] Craig Dalton: How did you fall in love with that area in the Eastern Sierra? [00:19:57] Amanda Nauman: M uh, growing up, I think, um, yeah, we probably talked about this a few years ago, but my parents always took us to Mammoth growing up and same thing with David's parents. And so we both sort of fell in love with it in a parallel way as we were younger. And then once we met, um, we were like, oh man, this place is awesome. And my parents saved up enough money to get a house there, I think in 20. 15 or 16 I think. And because of that opportunity to be there and stay there, I ended up doing a lot of my training for, at the time, DK Now Unbound. And so I attribute a lot of the success I had winning in 15 and 16 to training up there because it was just the most like wide open. Not California, like in the way that you would think about California gravel. It was just more Midwest than anything I'd ever found in the state. And because of that, it gave me the opportunity to put my head down and go hard the way that you would in the in the back roads of Kansas . So that was sort of how we fell in love with it. Definitely skiing and snowboarding first, then mountain biking over the years, and then, hey, like let's go down this road that looks like it goes off to nowhere. . Yeah. [00:21:14] Craig Dalton: Love it. And then which year was the, was 2020 was the first year that you guys attempted to put on Mammoth Tough, right? Right. [00:21:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. We came up with the idea in like, well, I'd say late 2018 or so. Um, I don't know if I've ever told this story publicly, but we actually went. Maybe half a year of doing it with Lifetime and thinking it was gonna be a lifetime event. And ultimately Dave and I decided we wanted to do it on our own. And so in 20, late 2019, we were like, okay, we're gonna do it ourselves cuz this is how we wanna do it and present it. And, and then with the intention of it kicking off in 2020 [00:21:54] Craig Dalton: and what year did it actually kick off? [00:21:56] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, last year , so, [00:21:59] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah. I couldn't remember if it happened once or twice already. Yeah. No. So you got got one [00:22:03] Amanda Nauman: under your belt. Yeah. Covid. And then 2021 was wildfires, unfortunately. And then, yeah, 2022 finally happened last year. Which, one thing I do wanna mention, I just set up bike ride for. this in 2023. For me, I'm the tough, and they have a new insurance policy option for their event promoters where there's like a natural disaster thing. You can pay a fee into this insurance thing where they will cover refunds for natural disasters like wildfires, which is huge, especially so any promoter's listening in California, think about it. It's only like 2.2% of your fees or whatever, and I think. The state that we're in and with, you know, some of the things that could happen in our areas like that is a, a pretty good opportunity for promoters. . [00:22:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that sounds like it. Yeah. So the events in September, so end of the year each, each season. [00:22:59] Amanda Nauman: Yes. Yeah, it is the weekend after Labor Day. So traditionally the Mammoth Grand Fondo has Labor Day weekend, and then we are that next Saturday after that, which is the closing weekend of the Mountain bike park. So we had a lot of people that were up there. You know, you have siblings or other family members that wanna just go ride park all day and. Go do your little grapple adventure. [00:23:22] Craig Dalton: Nice. A little I'd I'd do a little bit of both if given the opportunity. . [00:23:26] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. A lot of people went and rode mountain bikes on Sunday. . [00:23:29] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Um, and tell us a little bit about the event. Like if someone's considering it for their calendar, what, what is it like? Obviously Mammoth Mountain is at a high elevation as you referenced before, but how did you design the, the, the event? What are the, the roads and trails like up. [00:23:45] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, it's one thing. So when we first started it, we had a short course and a long course. We were gonna do a 40 mile and a hundred mile option ish. And then in 2020, One, we had a bunch of people come out and we tested sort of a medium route. Even though the event was canceled, we were like, Hey, go ride part of this and tell us what you think. And that was the genesis of the medium distance. So in 2022 last year, we had three routes, even though that was never the initial plan, but some people felt like, oh, the short one's too easy and the long one's too hard. So we need an in between. And that was where we came up with the idea of doing three different ones and they. Very different. Like they're in completely different sections of the, of the valley of the mountain. They go in different areas. So I wanted to be able to sell a different experience for each distance and sort of have it as a stepping stone leading up to challenging yourself over a hundred if you want to, and letting those first two on the way kind. get you ready for what to expect for the, for the long one, cuz the long one you go pretty much all the way to Bishop and back essentially is the route. [00:24:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And how much climbing is in the long one? [00:25:00] Amanda Nauman: 7,500 or so? It's not too bad, it's not like raw cobbler where it's a hundred feet per every mile. It's a little bit less than that. So I think it's, um, it's not as like punchy and brutal in that regard. . [00:25:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Are you doing sort of long duration climbs on the course or is it [00:25:19] Amanda Nauman: rolling? Yeah, it's mostly you just like kind of get in the zone and climb for. Good chunks of time. It's a lot less, like five minutes as hard as you can go. You're kind of like, yeah. All right. Kick it into gear for the next hour, essentially. . . [00:25:37] Craig Dalton: Nice. And then the, the, um, the, the short and the medium courses, what are those [00:25:42] Amanda Nauman: distances? Yeah, the short is about 40 miles, very palatable. You go by, uh, the the Hot Creek area, which is cool, so you can stop and go down there. And then the medium distance is about 75 miles or so, and it has some pretty technical descending in it, I would say. And for folks who aren't used to riding or navigating sand as much, that feeling. Riding in Palmist stone is very different from anything else in the state, essentially, cuz you're just riding in old lava fields. So, . It's very unique. So I had a lot of people tell me last year like, oh man, you weren't kidding when you said it was gonna be hard. I'm like, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't like some like silly marketing ploy to be like, this is gonna be the hardest event ever. I was like, I was serious. Like it's not easy. Um, and so it was, it was funny to have a bunch of people come up to me afterwards and being like, yeah, you were right. Like I know I wouldn't lie to you [00:26:40] Craig Dalton: What does that end up translating wise for equipment? Like what do you sort of recommend people ride up? [00:26:46] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, 40 minimum tire width. And I tell people like, go with as wide as your frame would allow, essentially. So like I could fit a 48 Oracle ridge on my R L t if I, if I needed to. And I think that would be the most fun realistically for the day if you were just looking to have a good time. And a lot of it is because some of the softer stuff, if you're not used to the like fish taily feeling of your bike, With when it has two narrow tires and sand, then go wider because you, it'll be more stable and a lot less like wiggly, I guess. So it kind of depends on. Number one, people's handling abilities and number two, what your frame can allow. And then, yeah, just go big. It's safer. , [00:27:32] Craig Dalton: did people listen to you or were people showing up on 30 twos? Yeah, [00:27:35] Amanda Nauman: no, people listened. I think that was, that was the thing we tried to scare everyone with. I was like, if you go under 40, you're not gonna have a good time. Just trust me. . [00:27:45] Craig Dalton: I love it. I love it. So overall, how was the first year of the event? Did it meet your expectations? [00:27:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. I think the one thing, I don't like gloating, but I will toot my horn on the safety aspect because the one thing about that area is there's, you have very little cell service. You're kind of really, truly in the middle of nowhere and the only people who ever go out there are just going in their side by sides or motorcycles to, to get away. So we made it an an emphasis on safety and having a hundred percent rider accountability, which you'd be surprised looking into events that you're trying to sign up for that. That's not really the case for most events that you go to. Promoters kind of put it on you to, oh, well, if you're out there, you're kind of on your own and if you don't get back like, and you tried calling, sag, whatever, like you'll figure out how to get back essentially. And there's not really making sure that everybody is back. Okay. Whereas in our case, if you get out there and you get lost or. Can't find your way back. Like there's a, like you go into the risk of like making it out alive essentially, cuz temperatures can drop overnight and there's kind of more risk factors involved. So we wanted to make sure that we knew where everyone was. And TBG timing had a really good setup where you could text them if you dnf, if you got back to your hotel room on your own. And then if you got picked up by people, obviously we knew where you were. We got that idea from, there's a, there's an ultra, a Bishop Ultra that happens in May every year, and they have a policy where if you don't report your DNF or like that you left the course and just went home, you're never allowed back. like they have a very like hard. Stance on that, and they just don't want people back that disregard that rule. So we were like, well, we don't wanna be that strict, but we want to make sure people know that we care about where they are out there. Um, so yeah, safety, I think was, was the biggest thing that we wanted to, to shoot for. And hopefully everybody's told me like, you're never gonna be able to scale that if you have 2000 people. And I don't know, I'd like to take on that challenge just because I think making sure everyone's safe is, is always gonna be our biggest priority. Yeah, for sure. [00:30:03] Craig Dalton: That sounds great. I remember in the first year you guys were advertising that it was kind of co-located alongside Octoberfest in Mammoth. Did that turn out to be the case? [00:30:13] Amanda Nauman: It didn't. They, uh, they ended up canceling their festival. They like, I. Covid stuff and the people who ran octoberfest have other businesses in town that they were kind of more worried about than, than putting on the festival last year. So they canceled. And so that is why we did our own beer run on Friday. So we ended up doing what used to be theirs. They handed it off to us and they're like, yeah, if you wanna do this, Stupid beer run. Go for it. Which we did cuz I had done it the year before and I was like, this is awesome. Um, so we took that over and, and we obviously last year didn't have time to like throw together a full on music festival like they had had in the past, but cuz they canceled sort of last minute. So this year the village is kind of helping us. Get talent involved for kind of having it be a little bit more of a festival and live music and entertainment for Saturday. Um, so yeah, no more October Fest, but, but we're trying to make the party . [00:31:10] Craig Dalton: Love it. Um, now I know you guys have been through the ringer as far as event organizers are concerned between the pandemic and the fires. But let's put those two years of waiting aside. Like how would you, what. , how do you think about the amount of effort required to put on Mammoth? Tough. And was it a satisfying enterprise for you guys to put together, or was being an event organizer just like this crazy amount of work you never anticipated? [00:31:40] Amanda Nauman: It was a crazy amount of work. I never anticipated a hundred percent. Um, I think that Sunday after the award ceremony when we were all cleaning up, I was like, somebody asked David, like, oh, are you guys gonna do this next year? David was like, uh, I don't know. And I was like, yes, . So we had very different, I think, immediate reactions to it. David ended up doing a lot more of like the manual labor, I would say, and I did a lot more of like the computer work and logistics and all of that. So we came at it from different perspectives, but in, even though it was more work than we had anticipated, I would say it was a lot more rewarding than we had anticipated as well. because I have always told the story that Mammoth was like the special place to us. Like so much so that we thought about just keeping it a secret and not really like displaying it as this gravel destination, I guess you could say. But doing that and having the opportunity to share this place that has meant so much to us, I think was. Ultimately the biggest gift and the thing that we were the most proud of because everybody was like, yeah, I come up and ski here in snowboard and mountain bike. I never thought to bring my gravel bike and just go explore. And people have spent so much time on the 3 95 and just never really thought about those roads that are out there. So that part to me was very rewarding. I think Visit Mammoth now knows that it is a really great destination to, for people to go bring a gravel bike and explore. and that part I think will be the thing will, will always be the most proud of is kind of sharing that adventurous spirit up there. [00:33:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Did you think about the event from like, um, you want this to be a hyper-competitive event or was it something else in your mind when you conceived of it? [00:33:27] Amanda Nauman: Um, that's it. That's kind of hard for me because I am so competitive. So we wanted this fine balance of making everybody feel like they were competing for something, um, because I don't want to exclude all of those people. Like I always appreciated that Sam aims with the rock cobbler. He was always like, this isn't a race, but two people are going to win. Like he's always said that. and he's always acknowledged me or whoever else was winning those years, but he didn't like do categories for all, you know, the age groups and whatnot. But re I really wanted to do that for our event because, As a swimmer, as a triathlete, having those goals for everyday regular people was something that was important to me, cuz it was important to me a decade ago before I got into anything super competitive. So I think it's important to reward. . Um, yeah. The people that are doing the thing and going how they can as fast as they can for their certain categories, I think is still important to me. Um, but in that sense, I also just wanna make sure people can come and have a good time and not feel like the pressure to, to perform. [00:34:37] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you've covered both bases, right? You've, you've, you, you've allowed the racer types to go at it, go hard and get some recognition at the end, but you've also built that safety net to make sure that there's no man or woman left [00:34:50] Amanda Nauman: behind. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. , . [00:34:54] Craig Dalton: The other thing I wanted to touch on that seems like it's been growing in your portfolio of gravel offerings has been the camp. what can you just tell me about like what a tough camp is like and what are tough? What's the vision for 2023? Yeah. [00:35:10] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. I. I will go as, I'm gonna go a decade back real quick. So when I was, uh, I finished my master's degree in 2012 and I had planned a trip to Europe with my best friend from high school, and we signed up for one of those like v i p experiences with the Tour de France. And so we did like this like. 10 days in the NY sort of thing and blew all of the money that I had made in college to go do this trip. Cuz I was like, whatever, I'm starting work after this. Like I can make money later. And it was like a very, I don't know, transformative, life-changing trip that we did. And I think, you know, the, the people I had spent a week with, I still talked to you today and uh, I think that experience was important for me cuz it made me realize how much. Travel and sharing cool experiences on two wheels was to me. And then, you know, shortly after that, I met David, I was working at, felt all of these things kind of stumbled into bike racing and bike racing became the catalyst to going cool places and riding bikes with friends. and then now I am like moving that pendulum sort of back into to what was really important to me 10 years ago, which was like just going and doing these trips and riding with people for fun and like sharing kind of all of the experiences that I've had in the past decade. So that was the impetus of it. And like I knew we were gonna have this conversation and I was thinking a lot. Why I wanted to do camps and why they were so important to me and Dave working as a coach for Carmichael Training Systems, like they have always done a really amazing job with camps, and I've had the pleasure of helping coach some of those and being a part of them. And every time I'm like, this is where it's at, like the like intimate, like group setting. You know, you have good food, you hang out, you just talk about important life stuff. That I think is always something I enjoyed. So that was the impetus of of all of it. We started some of the camps in 2020, a couple more in 2021, a couple more last year, and to where we are at today, making all of them sort of under the Tough Ventures umbrella and expanding it to a couple camps in Kansas. [00:37:31] Craig Dalton: Super cool. I do, I do think for many cyclists, the idea of a camp evokes this. Training camp mentality, which is like, oh, I'm going because I'm trying to do well at Unbound, or what have you. Yeah, and I think it's an inter really interesting opportunity to kind of shift that mindset to more what you're saying, which is like, I'm gonna go somewhere cool. I'm gonna ride my ass off for four days. I'm not doing that for necessarily for anything beyond the sheer pleasure of writing. For four days and getting access to people who are knowledgeable about the sport and learning a thing or two. [00:38:07] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, exactly. I think it's a middle ground of a training camp and like a vacation trip, , because I want, I want to bring value and the way I've been explaining it to everyone is like, Dave and I made a lot of mistakes in the past 10 years. We did everything the wrong way and I would like to make sure that people coming into this discipline now, Kind of learn from our mistakes, start doing everything the right way, because you will have a much more pleasant experience doing these long adventures if you have, you know, some, some semblance of like how you should take care of yourself essentially. [00:38:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, definitely. There's just a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of if someone just tells you something simple like make sure you eat every hour in these long events. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna be a lot better off than [00:38:52] Amanda Nauman: or some people that are like, oh man, I only had a bottle in four hours. I'm like, well, that's why you feel like crap. [00:38:58] Craig Dalton: Yeah, . Exactly. I like you had the benefit of doing triathlons. You sort of learned those lessons very quickly. Yeah. If you didn't fuel in one activity for the next one, you were pretty much [00:39:09] Amanda Nauman: hosed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I, again, one of the other things that happened was we had so many people that came to Mammoth and did the short route last year, and it was like their first gravel event. And that was very intimidating for me cuz I was like, this is going to be like their introduction to this experience and this discipline. and I wanted it to be good, and I wanted them to have resources at their disposal to make it comfortable. So much so. I feel like I over-delivered and overshared on some of that information. And I had a couple people emailing me and say like, you know, you don't really have to like handhold so much for all these people. I was like, yeah, I do, because some of them literally have no idea. So like if it's annoying to you that I'm telling you to drink a bottle an hour, like just ignore me. Then , this isn't for you. [00:40:03] Craig Dalton: So most of the camps, well all the camps last year were up at Mammoth. And obviously like just being able to showcase all the great trails and roads up at Mammoth was an obvious thing for you to do both in terms of getting people pumped about that region that you love so much and getting people excited, maybe specifically for your event, but now you're expanding to Kansas. Let's talk about like, what's the orientation of those camps in Kansas? Is it just yet another great place to ride that people should go? Or is it trying to get you ready for any particular event? [00:40:35] Amanda Nauman: Uh, yeah. Yeah, they, so the first one is with the Flint Hills gravel ride, and the second one in July is with the Rockridge gravel. And so both of those events are run by Bobby Thompson and Dave and I met Bobby. . Like way back in 2017, the Dirty Kansas production or promotion company was the company that was, that DK was under at the time. They had dabbled in this idea of travel trips as well. So they did this like test run to do the Dirty River in the uk and Bobby was on that trip. So we met Bobby in that like travel trip, bike thing, atmosphere, and we became really fast good friends, and they had come out to Mammoth a couple times, um, in 2020 or 2021 and 2022. So we have always had this relationship with Bobby and he wanted to build his. Camps, or sorry, his events in Kansas that were more of like grassroots, like OG gravel style there. And that's very much the stuff that Dave and I fell in love with and we were like, well, , let's see if we can do tough camps in Kansas. Because Bobby came to me and said like, Hey, I'm not getting enough women signing up for these. Like, what am I doing wrong? And I was like, well, I don't think you're doing anything wrong necessarily. I think just like what you're offering is still intimidating for women. So let's try and maybe bring this camp idea to to soften. That experience or make it feel more palatable for women and for anyone as a whole. Um, so that was where that idea came from to build those camps there. And o obviously I have a really good reputation and love for that area in terms of what I've been able to do, um, with Unbound and all of. The experience that Dave and I have with that event. So I think sharing what we know and doing that and again in a place that um, means a lot to us was kind of why we wanted to do. . [00:42:35] Craig Dalton: So will those camps actually culminate in participation in the those events? [00:42:40] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, so that's how we structured. It was like a three day leading up to that event so that that final day you get to sort of execute everything that you've learned in the three days prior, which is, which is a fun way to do it. [00:42:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's super interesting. I want to touch on something that you mentioned offline, but just kind of reference there about just. Finding a way to bring more female athletes into the sport. And you mentioned some work you were doing with Sam at Rock Cobbler this year. , can you describe what you were doing? [00:43:11] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, so Chris Hall was on the marketing team helping Sam out this year, and he sent me a message a couple months ago and was like, Hey, Sam's at like 16% female participation. And he was like, how do we make that bigger? I'm not happy with it. And I was like, yeah, I'm not happy with that either. That's not a great number. So I was like, well, let's, you know, open 50 spots on the backend for any women. Sign up after it sells out. And I was like, I will volunteer my time if people wanna ask me any questions about it, if they're nervous, cuz maybe women don't necessarily want to email Sam or an unknown face behind an event and say like, Hey, is this for me? Maybe they'll feel more comfortable if it's for me. So they put a whole special section of the website called Ask Pan. People could email me their questions if they were concerned about stuff, and we got quite a few people that emailed and women that were just uncomfortable. Or didn't feel great about doing the short distance cuz it, it didn't feel like enough or they felt like a failure cuz they wanted to do the peb. And it was very eye-opening in the sense that I was like, yeah, maybe just women need that safe space to be able to say, Hey, I am uncomfortable. And they need somebody to tell them like, it's gonna be okay and you are fully capable of doing this. or maybe you're not fully capable and it's okay to do this other part of it instead, you know, it was, um, yeah, again, just a very eye-opening thing because women traditionally can just have a lot more self-doubt, I think, than men, and that idea that they perhaps might not feel like it's a space or. a discipline that's for them necessarily. So the more that I can try and crack that code on making women feel like they're more capable, I think that that's something that I'd like to, to focus on in the [00:45:09] Craig Dalton: future. . Yeah, I think that's super cool takeaway for a lot of event organizers listening. It's just like, find a female athlete that can be supportive and be open to questions like that, just to make people feel welcome. Yeah. [00:45:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. It seems so simple, but really like, and again, a lot of that has, has stemmed from talking to other women or like even my best friend, the one that I was talking to, that we went to Europe together. I always kind of use her as my litmus test. Like a better representation of all women in terms of how they're looking at the stuff. And she'll always second guess herself or say like, I don't think I can do that. And most of the times it's, cuz I feel like she's comparing it maybe to things that I do or things that she sees other women do, these like epic things and she's like, yeah, that's not for me. I'm like, no, it is like, you have no idea that you are fully capable of doing this if you want to. And a lot of times they, they won't even take the step to do it because. They're unsure. So the more that I can help, like, no, you can do it. If you want to do it, you should do X, Y, Z to, to get there. Um, yeah, those conversations I think are so important and for men listening to this too. You all have also a responsibility I think in to like make your female friends feel comfortable. Because a lot of times, like women just are too afraid to ask or they think that their questions are stupid. So the more that men. dads especially, um, brothers, the more that you all can make your female counterparts more comfortable, I think the better off we'll all be. Cuz it's not necessarily my job, only either , I think it's everyone's job to, to make it, to make it feel like something that they can do. [00:46:55] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for doing that by the way. Yeah. Yeah. It's important you've got a busy calendar of your own activities. , are there any events for the rest of the year that you're excited about doing? [00:47:09] Amanda Nauman: Oh, I don't know. I sort of don't, I don't really, I don't think I have anything. I was like super excited about rock cobbler and I even just did the short one this year. Um, yeah, I'm, I think I'm putting all of my eggs in the, the camp and mammoth basket and really focusing on calera because it is something that, Of steep learning curve, like obviously I haven't, I haven't finished it twice. So there's a reason why, and it's just a lot of like learning things the hard way I think when it comes to backpacking. So the idea of like even more self-sufficiency than I've been used to in the past is the, like that learning thing that I'm most excited about for this. [00:47:53] Craig Dalton: Is, was that the, if you could point to like the reasons why you haven't been able to complete the route, or is it a self-sufficiency issue? [00:48:02] Amanda Nauman: I would say it's equipment, honestly. Like the, well, the first year I couldn't even start it cuz of wildfires. So that was, that was a whole nother thing. Yeah. And then the second time I got stuck in like a lightning storm and on top of that my knee was bugging me cause I had picked. , I had made wrong equipment decisions, essentially. Yeah. And it's something where, you know, if I'm used to a certain position riding style and I have so many hours in that same position, I was jumping into something different, more weight on my bike, more everything. More walking. Yeah. . So it was just a, yeah, a learning curve of equipment and how I need to manage like, I don't know, just a very different style. Goal chasing essentially. [00:48:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so, it's so different. Yeah. I mean, just, just, just having a loaded bike in and of itself is like a game changer in what, how your knees feel in particular. [00:48:59] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Because I, so I had like a frame bag on my frame, and so I thought, well, I'll make my Q factor wider so that my knees aren't rubbing my frame and that. Q factor thing, just royally effed up my left knee . That was the thing that ultimately did me in, was changing one thing that I thought was gonna help me. But really, like your bodies are so fine tuned to a certain feel that if you throw that off and you're trying to do it for five days in a row, like, forget it. . Yeah. [00:49:27] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And cycling because of the repetitive nature of it, it's. , you get something wrong it you're doing over and over and over and over and over again. Eventually it's gonna add [00:49:36] Amanda Nauman: up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just again, stupid things where if I was telling somebody, I would say like, yeah, nothing new on race day. That's like one of my main mantras, and I of course, like I did something different for this major goal that I shouldn't have. , [00:49:53] Craig Dalton: something that was even harder than race day. Arguably. Yes, exactly. , . I love it. Well, I'm super excited for all the camps. I think for anybody listening like that is a good way to spend four days. Yeah, and I love that Mammoth tough went off well, and I'm excited for you guys doing it again. And obviously I'll put um, a link in the show notes to registration, which just opened up so. People listening, make sure to go out and grab your spot. [00:50:18] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Craig. Yeah. I think, and for anybody that's listening to this that does, hasn't listened to a bunch of the, the Gravel Ride episodes, go back and listen to the one that Craig did with Trek Travel in Jerron and. just be inspired to go, to go do a fun bike trip cuz I think yeah. I'm, I'm really gonna push that more for a lot of people who are, you know, race or event anxious and just need, like, need a good reason to go explore and do it in a different way. Yeah. [00:50:50] Craig Dalton: Gravel travel, it's where it's [00:50:52] Amanda Nauman: at. Yeah. Yes, exactly. . [00:50:55] Craig Dalton: So good to spend some time with you again and hopefully we catch up later this year. [00:50:59] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, thanks Craig. I appreciate it. [00:51:02] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Amanda as much as I did. She's such a great member of the gravel cycling community. I always learn a lot listening to the grody IO podcast and appreciate her perspective. She's been doing all these gravel events for a while. So just offers a great historical view as to what it was like, what it's like now and what are some of the ways that we can chart the course forward. I encourage you to check out all the tough ventures work. It's tough.ventures. As she mentioned during the show, they're doing the mammoth tough event, but they're also doing a series of camps this year, which I think will be super fun and informative to anybody who can attend. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.    

Podcast host, race promoter, athlete. Amanda (Panda) Nauman chats about her race, Mammoth Tuff, as well as a camp she will be hosting in the Flint Hills! We also chat about women in the sport of cycling and why it is so important to have representation!

Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek are back to answer your questions about Unbound. As a special bonus, Amanda then talks with Unbound XL wide angle podium finisher Chris Mehlman about tactics and cycling computer strategy for the 350 mile Unbound XL. WAP BEANIE ALERT! Groadio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network and our donor drive is going on now. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. In return, we will send you a Wide Angle Podium knit cap. WinWin. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free Custom Color Kit AND an exclusive premium water bottle with the purchase of a Hammerhead Karoo 2. Visit hammerhead.io right now and use promo code GROADIO at checkout to get yours today. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Follow Chris Mehlman on Instagram at @cmehlman34. Catch up with Zach's on Twitter at @theshoestar and on Instagram at @zacharyschuster. Follow Bill at @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Follow the show @groadio Email the show at groadio@gmail.com.      

To help us gaze into our crystal ball of gravel riding, we chatted to a number of industry experts, riders and racers to discuss where we think the future of gravel will lie. Could we come up with a consensus? Absolutely not, but there are certainly some bright ideas about the different directions that the gravel world could be heading in.Thank you to racers Dalila Lecky and Amanda Nauman, JP McCarthy from SRAM, Canyon' Matt Leake, James Heaton from WTB, Rapha events' Louis van Kleef, Ian Carter from Specialized, Tailfin's James Bracey and Kitty, Alice, Pau, Freddie and Taylor from Steezy Collective for contributing to this episode.This episode is brought to you by Hammerhead. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Elizabeth, Zach, Bill and special guest Amanda Nauman break down the MTB events that took place in Tokyo for the 2020 Olympics. Follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ Follow Elisabeth on Twitter at @egrindcore. Follow Micheal on Twitter at @landsoftly and Instagram at @yeahyouride. Follow Zach on Twitter at @theshoestar and Instagram at @zacharyschuster Follow Bill (@cxhairs) on  Twitter and  Instagram and the CXHAIRS Bulletin on Instagram at @cxhairsbulletin. Check out The CXHAIRS Bulletin from Zach and Bill at https://cxhairs.substack.com/. Give a CXHAIRS Bulletin gift subscription by going here: https://cxhairs.substack.com/subscribe?gift=true. Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium. Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts if that's how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it's not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on  Twitter and  Instagram and the CXHAIRS Bulletin on Instagram at @cxhairsbulletin. Have a question, comment, complaint, or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com, And don't hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS (405-294-2477). Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso.

In our third recap episode of Unbound Gravel, Payson sits down to talk with two racers from the Unbound XL, the 350 mile race, Will Loevner and Amanda Nauman. Will Loevner finished Unbound XL in second place, in spite of being younger than any of his competitors and a relative unknown at the start of the race. However, this achievement is only a fraction of the story. After crashing around mile 200 in the middle of the night, he rode the remaining 150 miles one-handed, with a broken hand and a duct taped laceration on his arm that would later require stitches. In this conversation, he explains why stopping was never an option.Amanda Nauman had previously raced the 200 mile race five times, winning twice and coming in second twice. She talks about why she decided to make the leap to XL and how the longer race compares the 200 culturally, physically, and mentally.

This week we sit down with Brad Waldron, founder of Kali Protectives to take a deep dive into helmet tech and the new Grit gravel helmet. Kali Protectives Web / Instagram  Support the Podcast The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Kali Protectives Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Gravel Ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton this week on the podcast. We've got Brad Waldron from Kali. Protectives talking to us about helmets. [00:00:15]Before we jump in just to reminder, The Gravel Ride podcast is sponsored by listeners like you and a select group of sponsors from the industry and outside the industry. We appreciate any contributions to the show's www.buymeacoffee.com/thegravelride. And when we do bring a sponsor on board, please make sure to check out their products because without their support, we couldn't continue doing what we're doing. [00:00:40] [00:00:40]With that said let's dive right into my interview with Kali. Protectives.     Brad. Welcome to the show. [00:00:46] Brad Waldron: [00:00:46] Thanks for having me [00:00:47] Craig Dalton: [00:00:47] I'm super stoked to talk helmets. It's interesting. It's one of those categories that. I haven't covered on the podcast thus far. So I figured going to an expert and talking about it will give the listener a lot of value about helmet technology for gravel, riding [00:01:02]Brad Waldron: [00:01:02] looking forward to it. [00:01:04] Craig Dalton: [00:01:04] Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your background and how Kali was started? [00:01:09]Brad Waldron: [00:01:09] Sure. I was super lucky in a previous life career. I worked for an aerospace company working on military aircraft. So I was a carbon fiber R and D engineer. Mostly on the process side, not on the material side. [00:01:22]I was fortunate enough to work on the B2 bomber F eighteens joint strike fighter, and then a few airplanes that had never made it, but just stuff you've made it and broke it to see what we could do. And this will give you the idea of my age, but I was at Northrop Grumman in between the first Gulf war and the second Gulf war. [00:01:41] And they didn't want to put a lot of money in production at that time, but they want to put a lot of money into R and D. So I was just in the perfect place at the perfect time where you could almost do anything you wanted. If it made sense. I, one time my boss walked in and said, DARPA's going to be here next week. [00:01:57] Think of something. Go back to my desk and I, without five different projects and the next week sit down in front of these generals and you. Present these ideas in here I'm, in my late twenties, early thirties, somewhere in there. And they're like rubber stamping, all of them and oh shit. [00:02:12] Now I got, I do, so I got to build a $12 million milling machine and then just things like that. So that's where my real just try it. Mentality came from, when you hear are, you can't do that. And get into some of the things that people told me we couldn't do at Kali. It's let's just try, and that's been like theme sentence. [00:02:30] So I worked that and through some changes in life, I went to work or another aerospace company and didn't love it, so I was down in the Southern California area, working there. And then I moved back up to Northern California where I was born and raised. And I was in R and D at this satellite company and it just wasn't everything I wanted. [00:02:49] And lo and behold, there's this ad for the big red S in the paper. And so I put on my suit and went to my interview. Nobody's wearing a suit, got called back for a second interview and go, what do I wear when I knew I wore the suit? Yeah. So I guess it worked, they offered me a job as the Pumps and locks, designer, something like that. [00:03:09]And I was so happy to take my 25% pay cut to be in the bike industry. And there was, and then on my first day they said, Hey, you know that job, we offered you the helmet guy quit. And would you rather that job on the helmets over locks? Hell yeah. But the ironic thing was they, at that time, specialized was still assembling the helmets at, on a site and. [00:03:32] We tested our helmets and they said, there's the test lab. There's 10,000 helmets sitting over there that can't be shipped. So you say they're tested and Don, w oh, and by the way that the helmet technician quit at the same time. And so I walked into this test lab with this equipment I never seen in my life and go, okay, what did we do here? [00:03:50] And fortunately somebody who's become a good friend and who I trust in testing. Dr. Terry Smith came and trained me how to run the equipment. The best thing I did was I tested all the helmets at specialized for the next year. I didn't hire another technician. So getting that lab experience and seeing how these helmets broke personally, not just people come and say, Hey, look at this, here's your, reading reports and stuff it's was a great launching point for [00:04:17] me. [00:04:18] Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine just having your hands on that many. Tests to see how these helmets are performing just was like training by fire. [00:04:27]I tell people frequently that I'm a mediocre engineer. I'm really a better technician. I just somehow wiggled my way to get my degree, but mostly I just love being in the shop. [00:04:36] If you saw my office next to me as a drill press on the other side of the bandsaw, just being out there with my hands is the way [00:04:44] Craig Dalton: [00:04:44] I work. And did you have a background at cycling when you were in the aerospace industry? [00:04:48] Brad Waldron: [00:04:48] I had started cycling with some friends and just, around the LA area. [00:04:52] And if, I lived in first and Palmdale. When I first moved into Palmdale, I walked into a bike shop and this long hair blonde guy walks up and says, can I help you? And I said I'm new to the area. Can tell me where some trails are. And he's I'll pick you up Saturday morning at nine, it turned out it was insane. [00:05:10] Wayne crows Dale. So my first ride was insane, Wayne, and he there's a long story on board with it all, but he basically rode a wheelie up the fire road next to me, up and up. And, but we had a, the time rode with Wayne A. Little bit and then, got into riding there. And then the transfer down further. [00:05:29] Into the depths of LA, where you have to drive an hour just to get to the dirt. lot of people around me were riding and that's where I really got started riding was during that. [00:05:39] Craig Dalton: [00:05:39] Yeah. Right on. And you brought that to specialize and obviously specialized has a big riding culture down there in Morgan hill. [00:05:45] Brad Waldron: [00:05:45] Yep. Yeah. We're actually about 500 meters from them. Our building is they actually have to pass us to get to their building. And so we painted big ass Cali letters all over the building. Just to annoy him. [00:05:58]Craig Dalton: [00:05:58] So then at some point you decided I'm going to jump off and do this on my own. What, was there a particular market opportunity that you saw? [00:06:05] Something that you felt wasn't being done at the bigger companies? [00:06:08] Brad Waldron: [00:06:08] No, not yet. That's not really where it happened. At the time when I was in special ed, so I had moved on from helmets and eventually became the head of engineering that specialized for everything for bikes. Mostly. What I concentrated on was the carbon fiber projects. [00:06:22]The the, I worked on the tarmac and Robi mostly on the layups and things like that. Other guys who had much better frame experience than I did you know, the geometry? So I would go the factories and work with the carbon layups and things like that. And we would make it and break it. I still have, I have tarmac frame, number two, doesn't look, anything like what went to production. [00:06:43]It had a split top tube who knew that was UCI illegal, but so my re people see it all the time. It doesn't say special. I didn't say anything on it. So it's got carbon, top tube and chains and seats tubes, and and then the underbody is aluminum. So the idea was it was going to be nice, crisp, feel of the aluminum, but where your body touches, you're going to have that forgiving carbon fiber Conceptually feel. [00:07:09] And so I still have that bike when people see me out on it I'm not a big roadie. I don't ride a lot on the road, but they're like, what the hell is that? Because it's totally unrecognizable, but it's pretty cool. So I actually left specialized primarily because they were going through some transitions at the time they had wanted to transfer a lot of the engineering to Taiwan. [00:07:32] And I wasn't interested in that job. I had my first kid, I didn't want to travel, did not want to travel at all. And so I actually resigned from the position. It was a great experience. It took me nine months to leave. Because I didn't have another job. I hired my replacement. I finished those two bikes and then just started consulting a little bit. [00:07:52] So I consulted. A little bit with true beta worked on their first carbon bars. With Jared Smith, they're headed for engineering their first carbon cranks, things like that. And it bounced around a little bit. Then somebody came to me and said, we need a carbon fiber factory in China to feed these other factories. [00:08:12] And I just quit specialized cause I didn't want to travel. And they came to me and said, Hey, can you help us start the Stackery? And I'm like, how many times a year will I have to come? Then they were four times. I'm like four, okay. Talking to a non traveler. Now I said, I can come for four times a year. I spent no less than 150 days a year for the next seven years. [00:08:33]I just couldn't let it go, try to get the thing up and running and working the way. And we made things like skid plates and pipe bards. KTM was one of our biggest customers. But one of our customers was a helping it factory. So they came to us to make a motorcycle helmet shell, and they, we looked at this thing and we made the shell, we sent it over. [00:08:52]And they knew I also had some testing background. They were showing me these test results. And I was seeing some things that I didn't like. Basically I was seeing a double spike in G-Force and what that meant to me, it was inside your school or your brains just slapping around. Cause you're seeing a double impact. [00:09:10]That was happening because as the impact hits the outer shell was so stiff that if you forced a spike up, then as the shell breaks down, they start to fall. Then you hit the foam and they spike up again. I'm like okay, what's doing, that is the gap between your foam and my shell. [00:09:27]Let's get this thing tighter. Arrive, for example, really prides themselves on the fact that they designed their foam and shell to fit so well. Not everybody spends that much time on it. Then I had this really, according to them, stupid idea. He said, why aren't you in molding these like the bike helmet? [00:09:43] And they're like, that's impossible. It's a processing problem. You'll never make it work. And that's where that let's just try it thing came in. So we went in and we tried it. It took a couple of years to finally get it to work, but we started in molding motorcycle helmet. So now you're eliminating that gap between the farm and shop. [00:10:03] Then on top of it, you start to learn, oh, I don't need that much shell. I can thin the shell down because I've got the phone, backing it up. And by the way, I don't even have to have as high of DPS density. I can lower that too. So now I'm finding out that when I have the impact, instead of having that double spike and G-forces, I've got this nice smooth curve that spreads the load much more efficiently, then I got less shell. [00:10:29] I got lighter foam. I got a much lighter helmet. And I always liked to tell people I never start a project with a weight goal. I think that's not a good way to start a project that, that compromises safety in my opinion. But that process was helping us make a much lighter helmet, which in the end is simple physics force equals mass times acceleration, reduce the mass. [00:10:51] You're going to reduce the force. So we started, Perfecting this process showing these results around, tried to sell the patent. I did not. I was not looking to start my own company. That being a CEO, being in sales and marketing, not my favorite thing. We had a few people who were really close to buying it and then backed off. [00:11:11] And then somebody who somebody came along a golden investor, essentially. Came along and said, you got to do this and I'll back you. And so I've got one silent investor in his company has been nothing but amazing. Always allowing me to make safety decisions first over simply. What are your sales today? [00:11:30]Craig Dalton: [00:11:30] You mentioned that's amazing. You mentioned that you started with that motorcycle helmets technology did Cali launch where the motorcycle [00:11:39]Brad Waldron: [00:11:39] we did and nobody cared. Literally we, we went to the Interbike of Moda, which was Indianapolis. There was in Indianapolis motor sports show and we got our booth and I'm standing there my first day. [00:11:52] And you could hear the yarn from the industry. Nobody cared, had the cutouts, you could see. So the second day I'm like, I spent all of my money to get here. I stood in the aisle and made people pick up the helmet. Cause it was significantly lighter. Then what people were used to, and, know, you get the response, like that's it's okay. [00:12:09] But I guess just put it in your hands and if you don't want to talk to me, move on and then you put it in their hands and go, what is this? And then through that, the rest of the next few days, I only had one guy actually put it in my hand and walk on. Everybody else said, all right, what's going on? [00:12:22] And then we would explain what was happening with the in molding process and why we could do what we could do and, and show the results of the [00:12:30] Craig Dalton: [00:12:30] testing. Was it always in the back of your head to move into the cycling market? [00:12:35]Brad Waldron: [00:12:35] I was more of a cyclist than I was Moto. When I started doing good, if I get involved with something, I want to get into the sport. [00:12:41] So when we started making skid plates and pipe guards, I went and bought motorcycles, started riding dirt bikes. Now I ride a Ducati and in a fixer and and but cycling was definitely more my heart. But it, so it wasn't that I was necessarily looking to do that, but we had found a way to build full shell helmets that I believe in, I drank my own Kool-Aid that when you put that on your head using that technology, you were putting on a safer product on your head. [00:13:11] So the next thing of course was to do a full face download on it. So we did that and immediately the bike industry was. More welcoming. Yeah. The motor industry is great, but it's complex. It's the distributors have all had their own helmet brands. So in our industry, we've got the different distributors BTI, K Chaz QBP, all these different guys. [00:13:34] They don't have their own brands. When you start talking about Modo, they all have their own Hammad brands. If you think. The answer for example, is open owned by a company called  Rocky. There's just the complexity of getting past the house brands where, when you were finding people were interested in our conversations. [00:13:51]We'd go to Interbike and people wanted to talk to us. They wanted to hear about what we had and yeah, and that's where we really started taking it off is when we were having these one-on-one conversations, it wasn't through any advertising. We did it. Wasn't through. The talk, it was meeting people and just showing them what we did and answering questions. [00:14:10]And that philosophy is still super important to us today. You call Kelly today. You better get somebody on the phone, somebody better to answer the phone. Cause that's our, we want to talk to people and respond. And that's an important part of who we are. So [00:14:24] Craig Dalton: [00:14:24] is it safe to say that the sort of signals the bike industry was giving you around the full face helmet suggested, Hey. [00:14:30] We need to lean into this and create a range of helmets for cyclists. [00:14:34]Brad Waldron: [00:14:34] Yeah. It came into, when you started talking to shops and what their needs are it's one thing to walk in with one helmet, it, when you're going up against, but let's be honest, you're going up against track, specialized, giant Cannondale, Scott, these guys all have, all their products behind them. [00:14:52]And they all have helmets and there's incentives to bring in those helmets. You get a discount if you bring that in. Then the only, other, not the only, but the other big boys would in are, bell Jiro who do have a complete range, that doesn't leave a lot of room for a lot of other people. [00:15:04] So expanding your range and it's something that makes sense for a shop carry. I still love bike shops. I still love walking in and smell the rubber. And still today Over 90% of our sales are still two independent bike dealers. Our, the amount that sold online is small. And that's a whole nother, probably podcast to talk about how that continues. [00:15:29] But our main focus is still to, to maintain those relationships with those independent bike shops. [00:15:35] Craig Dalton: [00:15:35] Interesting. So when you develop that range and I guess we can slip into the. More road and gravel helmets that you guys have been releasing over the few years. What features were you leaning into at that point? [00:15:46]You talked about how originally the differentiator turned out to be the weight and the technology around protecting the head and maybe a different way than had been done. Where did that go to for the road slash gravel helmets? [00:15:59] Brad Waldron: [00:15:59] Sure. Really what's what continues to drive us as technology. [00:16:02] We're always looking for stuff that can help us make. The next step. And we started with a technology from a guy from Australia called conehead, where you got the geometric shapes inside these helmets and they crushed the, but to get more specific to answering your question, some of the difficulties, when you start talking about road, helmets is ventilation is so important, right? [00:16:24] So getting big vents, getting air flow through. When you do that, you have to  really crank up the density of the foam to get the enough to stop the impact according to the standards. When you do that let me put it another way to start with this. I believe all helmets are too hard. [00:16:41] We're hurting people by the foam densities. We need to get the foam densities down. It's based on how the interpretation of the standards are, which are built to take the worst of the worst crashes. We're not doing enough to deal with them. Where the majority of crashes are, which are according to a study at the Imperial college of London. [00:16:59]80% of all bicycle accidents are below 160. G's, yet all I got to do to pass a test and sell you a helmet is go to the test lab and make sure it doesn't go over 300 GS. Now 300 GS is close to death. Alrighty. How do we address both of those big hits? But also the majority of those hits. [00:17:21] And so that's where, that's where a lot of my time gets focused on. It's not specifically for a genre of helmet per se, but how do we lower the density of the foam? How do we put stuff next to your head? That's softer. How do we start reducing impact at zero G's? So now I jumped back to the question of how do we deal with the gravel helmets? [00:17:45]Again, now I'm battling. I got to put a lot of foam in a small space, which means I got to Jack up the densities. What's cool. Even though a lot of people don't know about Kali, we're known within the industry and the other helmet companies know each other. But getting a reputation is it somebody who wants to try technology? [00:18:03] We get people coming to us all the time saying, Hey, you want to try this? And my answer is always the same. If it works right, you bet. I'm going to try it. W we were approached initially by Don Morgan, that physicist from Australia with the corn head later, we were approached with a from a chemical company out of Italy that had this carbon nano to acrylic based material that they were trying to pitch as a multi impact material. [00:18:27]It didn't work as multi impact, but it works. So now I can bind the code ed and EPS. And I'm finding I'm able to lower the density in the helmet that we're probably going to talk about, which is the grit. And so much that I was shocked at the first round of testing that I was expecting the typical results where I got to put it way too hard, the higher density, if I'm in a place that I don't really want to put it, but by putting the right materials in the right combinations I'm getting better results then than I expected. [00:19:03]Craig Dalton: [00:19:03] And so did that sort of Eureka moment happened early in the process and allow you then to pursue different elements of the design? [00:19:11]Brad Waldron: [00:19:11] It wish she was at easy. We actually took, originally took that structure that I talked about and put it in an Aero helmet. And the other way I can go with this stuff is I can. [00:19:24] If you look at our Tada helmet, it's an Aero helmet. I think I've sold a hundred of them, so I don't think you've seen it. Probably. I think we have it on the Danish road team. So unless you've been there Copenhagen lately, I'm not sure you've seen this helmet, but if you actually look at it and you look at cross-section of it, it's one of the finished how much you've ever seen. [00:19:43]Which was interesting. For me as an engineer, that I could actually get this thing to work and pass the test. But because passing the test is not my goal. My goal is saving lives. Maybe cheeky about that, but it really is what we give a shit about. We want people to get on their bikes and ride more. [00:20:04]I want to get on my bike and ride more. I've been helicoptered off the hill before we want that to happen, but when I went back to more. Realistic thicknesses and I could drive those foam densities down. Now I'm getting the results I want and not only on linear impacts, but rotational impacts and I'll skip back. [00:20:24] We're doing a lot of testing and outside labs. So we took some of our helmets. We put in MIPS in it. We put in what we call Rian, which is our low density layer. That's Material developed by a professor out of London. We put in like five different anti-rotation systems and we tested them against each other. [00:20:42] And they all do an interesting job. A little better here, a little better there. Sometimes this system works, sometimes this is the work better. What consistently worked better was we threw in a. Helmet with extremely low density in it. It's actually a homophobic. We sell in Europe, but can't sell here because the density is too low and that helmet consistently performed way better in rotational forces. [00:21:06] So all these systems that we put in help, but what really matters is put softer shit next to your head. Let's get these things to be more crushing and more the pillow's a little bit overrated, but just get that stuff that will crush next to your head. So when I'm talking about using the nano material in the Coneheads structures, I'm basically talking about a way in a much smaller area to get the foam density down where it's really making a difference for you during that crash. [00:21:37] Craig Dalton: [00:21:37] Is that right? A way to articulate upon impact how a Cali helmet performs versus kind of maybe a major brand helmet in terms of how it crushes how the materials work? [00:21:48] Brad Waldron: [00:21:48] Sure. I don't know how to say it. It's that I can say, I'll go continue to go back to that foam density thing. Most people don't put as much energy as we do in trying to find how to get to that lower density. [00:22:01] So basically if the density is too hard, that thing you're going to smack and it's going to crack cracking is fine and a big hit on the helmet cause that's releasing energy. But what I really want is I want it to crush. And I wanted to crush equally. And then by having those, like those geometric shapes in that center, it's actually, if you look at it, it looks like an Oreo because the nanomaterials white, you've got the black DPS around it. [00:22:25] And as that outer side crushes, then you hit another material that's meant to crush and send the energy laterally away from your head in those geometric structures. Rather than a smack and a crack, you're just seeing a progressive crack with multiple different materials there  to help dissipate that energy. [00:22:44] Craig Dalton: [00:22:44] Yeah. That resonates with me. And it's, it's hard to visualize in a conversation at times for the listener potentially. But if you think about that, just the, I think the pillow analogy works for me where it's just progressively becoming more and more supportive as my head is unfortunately impacting the ground or dirt, wherever I'm riding. [00:23:01]Brad Waldron: [00:23:01] And, a lot of your impacts are small. And so you don't even get into the part, but it has to really, get harder and harder to stop that big hit. And that's my kind of, my complaint with the way that our testing is that, we're only testing for those big hits. [00:23:16]When we have, a lot of hits, we're actually hurting people by doing it the way we're doing it. So w we just got to look at it from all aspects, rather than just. Th there's one test that we do in the test lab. Yeah. [00:23:27] Craig Dalton: [00:23:27] I managed to ring my own bell, this pandemic on a gravel ride. So I've it's resonating with me that having a look, it wasn't a super devastating crash, but I had one of those impacts that I definitely rung my bell. [00:23:41] Definitely like maybe it was not concussed, but needed to be escorted home by a friend. [00:23:47] Brad Waldron: [00:23:47] Some level of brain trauma happened there. It might've been like, but something happened. Yeah. It happens at a surprisingly low amount of G-forces and that's why I keep talking about, we need to start managing those impacts from all levels, not just from the highest levels. [00:24:06] Craig Dalton: [00:24:06] Yeah. And you said that you said before, like the testing is just very. With the tests, one thing, and it's easy to design around that one thing without really thinking about the athlete and the impacts. [00:24:17] Brad Waldron: [00:24:17] Yeah. Our tests are based on tests that were done in, in, in 1973 where we dropped cadavers on their heads and measured for skull fracture. [00:24:27] Cause we didn't know enough to measure the brain trauma. And at that time we terminate that it took 300, G's a helmet. It head took 300 GS to crack the school. So that became. Where that 300 GS came from it's cracking your skull, and that was fine at the time, but we've moved on. We have better technology and people are trying, people are trying to make changes. [00:24:46]People ask me about MIPS and I always say, I respect them. What Dr. Haller did was taught us about rotational forces. And we've learned a lot about those rotational forces. I happened to have a different philosophy on how to manage those. Then what MIPS does, because I want to start with something softer next year, head, they use a slip plane thing that is between your head and the EPS that needs. [00:25:12] Yeah, I was going to [00:25:12] Craig Dalton: [00:25:12] say, I think a number of listeners might be familiar with MIPS as a technology because it has been pretty heavily marketed and it's that little plastic frame inside the helmet that is designed to move. Yeah. [00:25:23] Brad Waldron: [00:25:23] Yep. Yes. And in my test it works. It's a technology that, that works. [00:25:28]Again, I, it, I think there's another way to attack it and we do by using something that crushes more immediately and then it gets off the rotation, but I'll even go beyond that. Forget my systems, my low density layers versus MIPS versus somebody else's. What I found in my tests at the university of Strasburg and that dynamic research and other labs that we use our own labs is the lower you can make the foam, the lower density. [00:25:56] You can make the foam the better it performs in rotation as well. So that salt. What's off your shit next to your head [00:26:05] Craig Dalton: [00:26:05] keeps coming back to that, Brad, doesn't it [00:26:07] Brad Waldron: [00:26:07] really what it comes down to, it's not as simple is that right? Otherwise we just put something, we go use those old ProTech helmets that just, had the soft stuff in it. [00:26:14]Those bottom out and they do bottom out at a low number you're in trouble. So we have to, we're trying to manage, all the impacts and that's, what's hard. I had somebody at MIPS. Tell me once. Those are two different helmets and I'm like, You guys invented the anti-rotation thing. [00:26:29] We're smarter than that. We can do this, just different philosophies. Yeah. So [00:26:33] Craig Dalton: [00:26:33] all this culminated recently in the grit helmet, coming to market, is there anything you want to mention about that helmet that we haven't covered? [00:26:40]Brad Waldron: [00:26:40] Yeah. The grit was it, there's pressure that pressure. [00:26:45] There's a lot of requests from our distributors, especially in Europe that. So look at the road side of things. I'm I'm a dirt guy through and through. And we the grit got the name. We actually started, the name was called the nickname was the dirty road. And we saw that as something that was much more Cali. [00:27:04] Then if we said, oh, we're going to go try and put a helmet on it on a tour de France rider. We got a couple of helmets that are in that category that they the UNO and the grit, the UNO is like a hundred dollar helmet. It's nice. It was actually designed by Hildegard Mueller. [00:27:20] Hilgard was the head of design for JIRA for, he was a Gero for 20 years. I don't know how long he was head of design, but. And then, and he freelances now and he helped us with that design. Because as you know is primarily amount biker. And when the lights, gravity a lot our line had led, leaned that way for a long time. [00:27:38] And then the grit was designed by Alan O Kimora who I've worked with quite a bit. And he's former bell specialized worked on several specialized road helmets. But we really worked on these thinking more towards the gravel market than the road market, because it fit us and who we are more than you're saying, like I said, we're going to, we're going to go sponsor. [00:28:03] I was like saying sky because they're dead and they're not a team anymore, but it's just, something like that and more to, to what we are. Yep. [00:28:11] Craig Dalton: [00:28:11] And you certainly have some great athletes riding the helmets on the gravel scene, former guest and friend of the pod. Amanda Nauman is a great friend of Cali's. [00:28:21] Brad Waldron: [00:28:21] She's just super chill and rides like a monster. You know what she did at the XL. Just shows that and, just a great attitude and somebody that's fun to just watch and see her progress. [00:28:33] Craig Dalton: [00:28:33] Yeah. Yeah. It was a great racing debut for the helmet. For sure. [00:28:37]Brad Waldron: [00:28:37] Appreciate that. [00:28:39] Yeah. [00:28:39] Craig Dalton: [00:28:39] Cool. Brett, I appreciate the overview. I hope the listener got a bit out of this in terms of the type of helmet tech that they should be looking at. I think I'm probably guilty of not looking at my helmet enough and saying, Hey, it's time for a new one time to replace it. So this is a good reminder, this conversation to to think about what's hanging in the garage. [00:28:58]Brad Waldron: [00:28:58] Yeah. Do you want to keep that thing for us, especially if you're using it a lot. And it's not saying that it's not always has to be a Cali there's other helmets, there's other people making helmets they're out there like me that. Give a shit that want people to do well. [00:29:11]We have our philosophy and like I said earlier, I drink my Kool-Aid. I think what we're doing is right on and on target. But yeah, make sure that you're, taking a look at what you're putting on your [00:29:19] Craig Dalton: [00:29:19] head. Sure. And I'll make sure that the listener knows how to find you. [00:29:23]Brad Waldron: [00:29:23] I appreciate that. [00:29:24]Craig Dalton: [00:29:24] So that's it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you learned a lot more about helmets than you did prior to listening. I know I did. [00:29:33]It's an area. I probably should be thinking a little bit more about given the state of my current helmet.  [00:29:38]Thank you for spending a little bit of your week with me this week. If you're interested in giving us any feedback or joining our community, please visit the ridership it's www.theridership.com. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels  

We will be back next week with a full show of Olympic MTB and Swiss Cup action. In the meantime, check out Cyclocross Radio's sister show, Groadio, which covers gravel racing in the U.S. and beyond. Zach, Bill, and Amanda Nauman chat about top-tier gravel racing and preview the upcoming Unbound Gravel. If you like the episode, consider subscribing. Groadio is available on all podcast platforms. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Catch up with Zach's on Twitter at @theshoestar. Follow Bill at @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Follow the show @groadio Email the show at groadio@gmail.com. Groadio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Catch up with Zach's on Twitter at @theshoestar. Follow Bill at @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Follow the show @groadio Email the show at groadio@gmail.com. Groadio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute.  

I recently sat down with athlete and cycling coach David Sheek, who joined me to talk about the Mammoth TUFF, a mixed-surface endurance cycling event he co-founded with cyclocross and gravel rider Amanda Nauman. David and I met via Zoom during his training camp in Mammoth Lakes, while he was in the final decision making process on whether to attend the Unbound Gravel XL (350 miles!) in just a few weeks. We chat about the growth of gravel cycling, bike prep, handling the effects of altitude, what to carry on your bike, hydration and nutrition, and the COVID-19 protocol at the re-scheduled Mammoth TUFF, which is coming up this Fall. Great tips, especially for cyclocross riders who are used to racing for an hour, that might want to get into these day-long endurance gravel rides. We ended up talking for about an hour and a half, so I've pulled the highlights of our conversation into this episode. The TUFF, originally scheduled for 2020, has a new date - September 18, 2021: https://mammothtuff.com David Sheek bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dave-sheek-27450b64/ RideCX: https://www.RideCX.com/ Thanks for listening!

This time on the Pneu Podcast, we wrap up our Women Who Rock series with Amanda Nauman! She’s a Two-time Queen of Kanza, and current holder of the Los Padre Traverse FKT*.  Amanda is an elite CX race, gravel racer, podcaster, and promoter.  Listen up on how she approaches all these different disciplines. *After recording […]

We are back in the Media Pit with our first real cyclocross action of the season. We jammed together two recording sessions to cover the past two weeks of Ethias Cross racing along with the MTB World Cup season and more. Follow Micheal on Twitter at @landsoftly Instagram at @yeahyouride Follow Zach on Twitter at @theshoestar and instagram at @zacharyschuster This episode is sponsored by Willa's Oat Milk! Find out more at www.willaskitchen.com. Enter the code CROSSHAIRS20 for 20 percent off your first order. We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF’s TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag … and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can’t afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don’t hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

It's episode 200 and here to celebrate this milestone, 194 episodes after the last time he was on the show is Curtis White. We chat about cyclocross training in lockdown and his aspirations for the season and then take a look back on CX Nationals, Worlds and key moments from last season. Follow Curtis on Instagram at @curtisjwhite. Check out Curtis' appearance with his sister, Emma, on episode 6, here: https://www.cxhairs.com/2015/10/13/crosshairs-radio-episode-6-curtis-and-emma-white/ This episode is sponsored by Willa's Oat Milk! Find out more at www.willaskitchen.com. Enter the code CROSSHAIRS20 for 20 percent off your first order. We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF’s TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag … and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can’t afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don’t hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso  

Drew Juiliano (Lazer/Voler p/b pregnancytoperformance.com) is back for his third appearance on Cyclocross Radio. We chat about his season's plans, riding in figure-eights, racing in Europe, hosting live shows for Shimano and much more. Follow Drew on Instagram at @drewliano. Check out our new sponsor Willa's Oat Milk at www.willaskitchen.com. Enter the code CROSSHAIRS20 for 20 percent off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=21_s We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF’s TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag … and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can’t afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don’t hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso  

Amanda Nauman is a fellow Wide Angle Podium host, but unlike most of us, she is pretty damn good at bikes. She has won DK multiple times in addition to countless other gravel, cyclocross, and who knows what other wins. She is also the co-founder and manager of the SDG Factory racing team, a race promoter, and all around do-gooder for everything bikes. Mammoth Tuff Visit The B Line Follow TGL today: Facebook - Instagram - Twitter Subscribe to The Gravel Lot on the Wide Angle Podium Network and become a member TODAY and get access to EXCLUSIVE bonus content. Be Free Ride Bikes: The best kit on the market, customized to YOUR specifications. Grimpeur Brothers Coffee: Purchase Viewer Mail or Hello Cyclocross Friends Espresso and support WAP today! Handup Gloves: Use code "PEBBLE$" for 20% off EVERYTHING in store. Visit The Gravel Lot website for our latest podcast, Real Talk videos, Bonus Content, shop, social media, and everything in between. Learn more about Undertipper and download their latest album “Y'all” at: http://undertipper.bandcamp.com/

US cyclocross veteran Tyler Cloutier joins us in the pit to talk adventure riding, cyclocross in the here and now, and the EKZ races at Baden. You can follow Tyler on Instagram at @tylerclouti. Follow Micheal on Twitter at @landsoftly Instagram at @yeahyouride Follow Zach on Twitter at @theshoestar and instagram at @zacharyschuster. Check out our new sponsor Willa's Oat Milk at www.willaskitchen.com. Enter the code CROSSHAIRS20 for 20 percent off your first order. This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=14_s We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF’s TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag … and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can’t afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don’t hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

Tim "The Super Rookie" Hayes turns the media pit into a McDonalds Playland ball pit, and we're all the better for it. Join us as we discuss Wout's performance in the Tour de France and the success of cyclocross stars on the road. Find Tim on The Slow Ride Podcast and follow them on Twitter at @theslowridepod. Follow Micheal on Twitter at @landsoftly Instagram at @yeahyouride Follow Zach on Twitter at @theshoestar and instagram at @zacharyschuster. This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=07_s We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF's TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag ... and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can't afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don't hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

UnPAved race director Dave Pryor joins Amanda and Bill to talk about putting on an event in today's environment. We are then joined by Zach to catch up on all the gravel news, including DK updates, the Mammoth Tuff virtual challenge and UCI Gravel Worlds? Check out UnPAved on Instagram at @unpavedpennsylvania. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Also, follow Amanda's attempt at the Caldera 500 solo attempt here: http://trackleaders.com/calderaitt20i.php?name=Amanda_Nauman Catch up with Zach's on Twitter at @theshoestar. Follow Bill at @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Follow the show @groadio Email the show at groadio@gmail.com. This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=24_a We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF’s TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag … and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can’t afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. WAP listeners get 10 percent off by using the code TUFF10. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Groadio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute.

Maghalie Rochette makes her long overdue debut on Cyclocross Radio to chat about the new look cyclocross season and all the cool stuff that happened last season. Check out Maghs' CXFever Video Skills series on her Instagram page at @maghroch. Follow Micheal on Twitter at @landsoftly Instagram at @yeahyouride Follow Zach on Twitter at @theshoestar and instagram at @zacharyschuster. This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=24_a We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF's TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag ... and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can't afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Enter the code TUFF10 to get 10 percent off the reg fee. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don't hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do). Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

Kerry Werner joins us in the media pit to talk about moving to Virginia, riding the Colorado Trail, adventure riding, bike racing, cyclocross racing and so much more. Check out Kerry on Instagram at @kerryw24. Kerry's Vlog on Youtube is at: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCJapudlF3KDpTlrzyr75Ow This episode is brought to you by Wattbike! Check out the Wattbike Atom, a smart-bike that is purpose built for giving you a real feel riding experience inside your home. To learn more about the Wattbike Atom, go to https://wattbike.com/us?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=wap_network&utm_content=24_a We are also sponsored this episode by The Mammoth TUFF's TUFF-20 Virtual Challenge. There is so much awesomeness brought to you by Amanda Nauman and Dave Sheek in this challenge you have to check it out and register. Tons of great prizes, cool raffle items, killer swag ... and the opportunity to participate in fun micro-challenges and a scavenger hunt. You can't afford not to participate. The Challenge goes through the end of September. Find out more and register, here: https://mammothtuff.com/challenge-tuff-20 Cyclocross Radio is part of the Wide Angle Podium network. Please consider becoming a member. Go to www.wideanglepodium.com/donate to learn more and contribute. Subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium newsletter at www.wideangle.com/email. Check out and subscribe to the Wide Angle Podium YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/wideanglepodium Please subscribe to Cyclocross Radio and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, even if it’s not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don't hesitate to call the helpline: 405-CXHAIRS.

Amanda Nauman is a Gravel cyclist, Cyclocross racer and Podcaster on 'Groadio' a Wide Angle Podium Podcast. She is a two time winner of the DK 200 mile gravel race.  Check out Groadio Podcast Follow Amanda Panda on Instagram   Support the Show: a) Share an episode or post you like  b) Rate & review b) PRE-Order Shred-Girls 2 https://amzn.to/2RBDlJy c) Donate at www.wideanglepodium.com/donate  

This week we talk with one of gravel's finest; professional racer and event organizer, Amanda Nauman.   Amanda is a 2x DK100 winner and runner-up in this year's Mid-South event.   In September, health conditions dependent, Amanda and team are introducing a new gravel event, Mammoth Tuff in Mammoth Lakes, CA.  Episode Links: Support the Podcast Amanda Nauman Instagram Mammoth Tuff Gravel Event  Automated transcription: Please excuse the errors Amanda, welcome to the show. Hey, nice to see you, Craig. Yes, there, we have it. So Amanda, we all start off the show by learning a little bit more about your background. How did you come to gravel cycling A long roundabout way, but I can give you the short version is basically I grew up swimming and from there I was swimming in college. I started getting sick of it and then I started doing triathlons. And from there did a few collegiate bike races enjoyed bike racing, got a job in the bike industry at felt bicycles. All my coworkers raced bikes. They kind of said, Hey, you know, you should do some of this racing stuff. It's fun. Sure enough, I was kind of good at it and that's how cyclocross and like cross country mountain biking started. And then the next thing was all the gravel events that started coming up. And I was kind of using those events as training for cross. Cause it was a good time of the year to be doing all those longer events. And then yeah, I found success in gravel events and that's, that's the shorthand version. So where you start, did you start off with a road bike? Was that your first bike when you were doing triathlons? Yes. Yeah. Good question. But yeah, so I got a road bike first and then when I started getting good at triathlon stuff, then yeah, I got a triathlon bike after that. And then did you get a mountain bike to kind of just dabble in off-road riding? I think so. I, I had always had a mountain bike, which is funny because I grew up going to mammoth during the summers. And so my dad really liked mountain biking. So my definition of mountain biking growing up was like going up a chairlift and riding down. So I remember when I was, yeah, I remember when I was in college distinctly having a conversation with somebody that was like, mountain biking is so hard and I was like, no, it's not. You just go downhill the whole time and not, not having any idea, like actually what it was all about. But yeah, my first bike, like first bike under the Christmas tree that I can remember that was actually usable, was a mountain bike and that's how I got into it. And so when I wanted to get the road bike, my dad was riding road at the time and he was like, yeah, let's do it. And so it was something that we could do together also. Neat. So it's probably, it sounds like it, those early skills kind of left you with some great bike handling relative to the overall spectrum of triathletes. Yeah. Surprisingly, it's something that I look back on and realize that, you know, my dad taking me to ride mountain bikes at a young age was he didn't know he was developing all these skills I would need later. But yeah, I was lucky to, to have that True. And as you were sort of adding disciplines to your cycling career, were you living in Southern California at the time? Yes. Yeah. So I grew up here swam here, but I went to college in the East coast, in New Jersey. And so that was like indoor swimming, you know, dealing with winter and stuff during triathlons and all that. But I applied for a job at felt bicycles cause it was an Irvine, which is like 10 minutes away from where I lived with my parents at the time and I got the job. So after the summer before my final year at Stevens, I went and did an internship there and came back and they, they said, you know, if you finish the school year, you can have a full time job after you graduate. So that was how all that happened. So basically I lived on the East coast for five years and came back home and yeah, I'm still in pretty much the same area. Nice. So the leap from triathlon to cyclocross is pretty huge. How did that happen? Is there a big cyclocross scene down in Southern California? Yeah, so the triathlon stuff I was doing pretty good at, and the funny thing is like all my coworkers in the engineering department, it felt raced cross cause it was fun. Short. The Soquel scene was pretty good and there was like a local grassroots team that was sponsored by felt at the time. So I would go and watch the races first before I ever raced them. So I would go and watch them the first event that I ever went to, to like actually spectate was cross Vegas, cause I was working in her bike at the time. And so we all just went to watch it. And that was when I realized like this cyclocross thing is amazing. Cause if you think about my first introduction to like big cyclocross events was cross Vegas and I thought all of them were going to be like that and it was nuts. But yeah, so I fell in love with just watching it from there. And then, you know, I had some friends that convinced me to do it. David actually signed me up for my first race by just like telling me to show up to this event. And then he signed me up without telling me, and I just happened to have all my bike stuff cause we were gonna ride afterwards. Yeah. So my first cross race was like him just signing me up without telling me. And as it turns out you had some running skills from your triathlon career assets. Oh, barely. That was my worst discipline. I don't know if you'd call those skills. I would just, you know, yeah. I can get off my bike and trot for a little bit again. Nice. Do you remember the first gravel event that you entered that you'd consider kind of a gravel event? Yes. It was Belgian waffle ride. I, you know, jokingly, I still consider that a road race. But that was the first style of that event that I did. Yeah. and I don't remember if it was the second or third annual. But it was still when it was at spies headquarters. Like it still felt small. I remember like Jonathan Page and Nicole Duke were in the race. And so as a cyclocross racer, I was like, Oh, this is awesome. Like these pro cross racers are here. So then at the time it wasn't anything more than what felt like, like a really long cyclocross race. Really. Okay. Yeah. And you know, one of the questions I definitely wanted to ask and it may come up in the context of our discussion about mid South is as a female athlete in these mass start races. How do you kind of navigate that? Obviously, you know, you're on the trying to be on the front end of these things, but you're mixed in with men and women. How do you, how do you kind of navigate that as a professional woman? Yeah, it's definitely something that's evolved over time. I mean, I can remember the first two years of dirty Kansas still making the front group and that was totally normal at the time. But as the, the speed of the front got faster, you know, it's way less possible for me to be able to hang at the pace that Ted King's cruising net, you know? So I think what happens in the women's race is everybody just goes and hangs on for dear life. And for a lot of people, I mean that first hour is like across race, whether you're male or female. But I think specifically on the women's side too, it's like, we're trying to get in as fast as group of possible in the beginning and try to hang on with wheels as fast as you can. And yeah, I mean, even I was writing some notes down in my mid South race and like the beginning of it, we just, we were going so hard and it was so unpleasant and it's one of those things where like, I'm going to be out here for like eight more hours after this. Yeah. I got to imagine it's tack the tactically really interesting for you to kind of figure out because yeah, maybe you don't want to be on the Ted King, Peter [inaudible] pack. So killing yourself to be in that is not going to be in your best interests, but you do want it, you, you are going to finish relatively high obviously for the overall. So finding that right group to hook on with and hoping your other women competitors aren't hooked into the same group is that is kind of a tactic I suppose, right? Yeah, for sure. And I, it's hard to, it's hard to say which one is the better tactic because you think about like, Amedee, Rockwell's start at dirty Kensal last year, she came in, you know, maybe in the top 10 to that first checkpoint and she admits to not having a good start at all and not being where she should have been. But you know, at the same time there are events where like I can say I've won or did really well because I did make the fastest possible group in the beginning. So it's a trade off and I think the distance and the length of the events plays into it, you know, there's some where you absolutely have to be as far up as you can in the beginning or else, you know, it's almost impossible to get to the front. But yeah, I think it's very event specific for sure. Do you find yourself thinking about that in training to say to yourself, like I gotta be able to go full gas, but then back it off and you know, obviously make the distance. Yeah. yeah, you cut off a little bit, but I think, you know, you were asking if it applies to training and for sure, I think there's a lot of times where you that's honestly, how I think about it is the first hour is like across race and then you're just hanging on for dear life. Some of the training rides that I've done in the past have been like showing up to our local group ride around tears called Como street. And so I I'll go do Como street on my road bike, which can be like a good two, a little over two hours. I'll get back here and get on my gravel bike and then ride for another three or four hours. And that's the best simulation I've figured out how to do where I'm going, as hard as I can to hang on to this group. And then, you know, still being able to like fuel and drink enough to be able to ride for X amount of hours after that. That makes sense. Have you had occasions where you've made sort of made the group and maybe dropped off later in the race and you found someone else rode a wave forward and ended up bridging up to you because of the work of other athletes in the race? Like they bridged to me from behind. Yeah, because they just happened to sort of get involved with a simpatico pack. Yes. Yeah, for sure. My first mid South in 2018, 2018, yeah. 2018. I made a really good group in the beginning. I got to the checkpoint, I had to pee. So I had this like whole ordeal running to a porta potty. And so when I left, I was completely by myself and I was by myself for a while. And this group of guys along with Chi Takeshita showed up behind me and I was like, God damn it. Like, you know, you're going through this thought process of like, she caught me because she's in this group and I've been by myself and this sucks. But I ended up having a conversation with the guys in the group and I was like asking them, you know, cause there were, her teammates were in the group as well. And I was like, if you are just going to pull her, like let me know now, cause I don't want to play this game. The guy was like, no, I'm going to let you guys have your own race. And so he ended up attacking so that the group would split apart. And that was what happened. Like everybody ended up stringing out and we regrouped in different places and that was where I ended up dropping her. So yeah, there've been quite a few instances where all get caught. You know, if you're in a group of like five or six and somebody solo, there's a really good chance you're going to catch them without doing more like, less effort than the person ahead of you. So it definitely becomes a strategy tactic game for sure. Do you get the sense with your fellow women competitors that, you know, people are just like, it is what it is and sometimes it's going to fall in my favor and sometimes it's going to happen against me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially as these events got bigger and there are more women, there are more people period. Like there's just a lot of different variable speeds. And a lot of times like that, that just shuffles the board completely. And, and definitely, I think I'm more stressed now because in, in the early days of the gravel racing, like where you ended up in that first hour, there was a pretty good chance that was like where you were going to finish. But now with so many more people out there and a lot of different people who are similar speeds to you as well it's easier for that duck to shuffle a bit more. So yeah. It makes it more fun I think. Yeah. So I was excited to talk to you about your second place finish at mid South this year, I was watching the coverage and it was a bit of a bomber that the women didn't get as much camera time as the men did in that race. But clearly like you turned yourself inside out for that performance. So I'd love to hear just kind of how it played out. Yeah. Thanks. And it's funny cause like I then the night before, so Thursday night the night before the expo and all that I was hanging out and Ansul Dickie was there, the guy from Vermont social who does a lot of Ted King's videos, he does a lot of the, the wall wahoo stuff that's coming out now. And he was part of that group that was doing the coverage of the front of the race. And he said to me, he was like, yeah. Bobby brought us on to do the coverage at the front of this race. And I was like, Oh, that's awesome. But never, it didn't cross my mind at all to ask him like, Oh, what about the women? It just, I had assumed that it was only going to be the men's coverage and I'm kind of mad at myself now for even just thinking that way, you know, because I was just cutting myself short for one. But yeah, it was kind of a bummer that had happened that way. I know they learned their lesson and they've already addressed that. Cause people were pissed and I saw the comments afterwards and I was like, Oh God, this is, does not look good. But I know that he's gonna, you know, take care of it two fold next year for sure. But yeah, it was, it was a very difficult race and for a lot of reasons, I think the, some of it was like even emotional as much as it was physical. And everything was just stacked against us. I think from the beginning, like I felt guilty even starting the race. We were sitting in the car that morning and I'm texting people like, is there going to be a lightning delay? Cause it was thundering and lightning all around us. It just felt like everything was saying this event is not happening or it shouldn't be happening. But yeah, we got to the start line and it was crazy, you know, the usual jitters of the event and we took off. And I honestly didn't think it was going to be as hard as it was in the beginning and we it's pavement for a bit but not very long. And then there's a stretch of gravel, another stretch of pavement. And then it's pretty much gravel for a long time. And I knew that I had to stay ahead. Cause as soon as they hit that second stretch of pavement, it's they go pretty hard. Cause there's a little bit of a climb then it starts spreading out from there. But basically once we got into that pavement and then the next stretch of gravel, it was just full gas. And I was looking at my power and I went, there was like 15 minutes in that section where my normalized power was two 85, which is like a climbing repeat effort for me. Like I can normally my workouts, if I do that, it's like an eight, nine minute effort, not 15. And yeah, so like five minutes after that Hannah got away in a group that I could see, it was like, you know, you hit one little mud section wrong and all of a sudden you're like five seconds back from where you were because you come to like the screeching halt and I can just see her riding away with this group of guys. And I knew that if I wasn't going to get there, it, I knew it probably just wasn't going to happen, period. Which sucks. But that's the reality. That's the reality of it too. Sometimes unless I get in a group of guys or something happens to her, it's going to be very hard for me to close that gap and then suddenly it just that whatever group she was in just got away completely. And so I was kind of in whatever third group was hanging out behind that. And yeah, once we hit that bridge that everybody has those pictures of where people had to dismount and get across it, cause there were all those boulders. There, the other girls that had been around me at that time were no longer there. And I was kind of in no man's land knowing that I was in second cause I saw a hand and get away. And that was where I pretty much stayed for the rest of the race. Mine is going back and forth with Lauren Stevens for quite a bit of the first half actually. And then even into like miles 65 or so was when she finally, I think hit a little bit of a wall cause she had been traveling from Europe the day before. No big deal. And yeah, so yeah, she ended up fourth. I think her teammate pastor at some point in the second half and I was second. And to set the stage just to, just to set the stage a little bit more for the listener who may not have seen the weather conditions, it was absolutely dumping, raining cats and dogs before you guys started, did it continue raining through that first half of the race or when did that stop? It probably stopped about two hours in, so it wasn't too bad, but it was annoying enough for those two hours that I could tell from the condition of what we were riding through. Like I wanted it starting the race to be a six hour day. And I remember two hours in, I was riding with somebody that I know and I looked to him and I was like, I think this is going to take like seven and a half, eight hours. And it that's, that's how long it took, it sucked, but I just knew the speeds that we were going and like how muddy it actually was and how much it was slowing our, our regular average down. It was just going to be a really long day. But I, you know, I really like how that second half of the race was almost, you know, everybody kind of ended up in one place and everybody was either going super far backwards or staying kind of in that same area. Like Hannah was only three, a little over three minutes faster than me in the second half of the race. So had we been, had we left at the same time, it would probably would have been more of a race, you know, cause, you know, within three minutes you can probably see that, but because she had 10 minutes on me in that first half, you know, there was no way that I knew that she was going to be 12, 13 minutes up the road, so it makes it less of a race. But yeah, it was interesting how the conditions really just made it all even for everyone. Yeah. And what, what did you, what were you riding and any specific choices you made because you knew it was going to be a slop Fest? Yes. Good question. So the bike Niner RLT a nine RDO frame, it's just their gravel frame, but it's the new one this year that has all the extra mounting bolts and tire clearance specifically which I was very stoked about because last year with the older frame, I had less tire clearance in my tire choice last year in just the one stretch of mud that we had last year, brought my bike to a screeching halt and it was terrible. So this year I knew what kind of peanut butter mud I was dealing with. And because of that, I decided to bring an extra set of wheels with mud tires on it, the Panner racer, gravel King muds, which I've written in dry conditions before and really liked. So I know that they work well regardless of what the conditions had been. And yeah, so that was the big I guess change that I made knowing that it was going to be disgusting. Yeah. And inevitably, I mean, obviously mud did accumulate on your bike. Did you have some techniques preplanned to try to help you shed some mud? I bought Pam and I sprayed my down tube. I was considering spraying my wheels and I was sitting there at the front of the car hunched over with the Pam and David was like, do not spray your wheels. Cause if that gets on your rotors, you're not stopping. And I remember I was actually thinking to myself, like, there's this, there's going to be some point in this race where I'm not stopping anyways because I'm not going to have brake pads anymore as it doesn't matter. But yeah, I did. I bought Pam and sprayed me down too, but I don't think it made that much of a difference, but that's a little cyclocross thing there. Yeah. I'd heard a couple of stories about that kind of stuff, which is kind of interesting. And I was also, it was interesting hearing from paisan about him choosing a slick tire saying to himself, like I'm kinda kind of hosed one way or another, so I might as well choose something that's just gonna accumulate less mud. Yeah, I know. But I'm to, maybe I might be the only person to critique him on that. I don't think that was a good tire choice because it messed him up in the beginning and it ended up collecting too much. And I think had he had a little, just a little bit of knobs on it, you know, it's able to shed in a different way than like a completely smooth surface is just continuously collecting stuff sometimes. So I know, I mean it's pacing. He has the ability to ride whatever he puts on his bike honestly, and probably still do well. So he's like, Oh yeah, this is great. And I'm like, yeah, but stop telling people that, cause it's probably not great for everyone. Right. Like I honestly don't think it is. And I don't think people should be like, well, if paisan did it, I'm gonna ride this. Like and he can give me crap for that if he wants to. But I don't think it's a good all around her for everyone. Yeah. I think we're going to need a pan racer or IRC to do some studies on, on that before we take it to heart. Yes. Well, cool. I mean, I saw some of the pictures of you crossing the finish line and you just looked destroyed from that effort. How did you feel when you hit the finish line? Okay. Great relieved. I mean, it was, yeah, it's hard when you want it to be a six hour day and it ends up being an eight hour day. Like I said it's not that hasn't happened very often for me. Mutually in the events, you know, you have a plan a where everything's gonna go well, and you have a plan B when it's not in that you still plan for that. Like dirty Kanza for example, I always pack like extra clothes and, you know, brighter lights in my third checkpoint bag, knowing that something could happen, but I've never had to like dive into that Oh, crap stuff. And this event I had to, like, I knew it was going to take a long time. And so it takes a toll on you mentally. And it's one of those things where looking back, knowing that Hannah had issues with like nutrition and not getting enough calories at the end, you know, if somebody had told me that when I got to the halfway that that was going to happen, like maybe I would have dug a little bit harder, who knows, you know, it's just a lot of things that go on where it was just such a brutal day that I was like content with where I was honestly I'd hate admitting that, but it was like, I just wanted this to be over with seriously. Yeah. I mean just keeping the pedals going in those kinds of conditions is a huge accomplishment. So yeah, I don't blame you. It is interesting in these long races that notion, and I think, you know, anybody at your level obviously knows this it's it's you gotta keep going. Cause you never know what's going to happen in gravel. People could have mechanicals or as you said, they could have just had a bad nutrition moment and all of a sudden the wheels completely fall off. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And, and that is, I mean the same thing happens in cross. Anything can happen to the people in front of you. It's just one of those things where it's a lot more grueling, do it for an extra four hours or whatever. The one nice thing about this year's event was it's the same. It was pretty much the same course as the year before. And so I knew that they had like a secret, a wasteless thing around mile 80, which the year before I took maybe a shot of tequila or something, I don't remember what it was. I wasn't having a good race last year, so I needed to stop there. And this year I was like, I don't care if Hannah's a minute ahead of me, I need to stop and get a shot of something. So I stopped at this Oasis and the guy had like all these liquor bottles sitting out in front and these little plastic cups to pour into. And I was like, just give me a shot of something. He's like, well, what I'm like, I don't know. Just whatever. So he's like, here's some Jameson I'm like, okay, thanks. And yeah, right after that section, it's like really Sandy, even when it's wet, I don't know how it's still hard to describe sand section for about 20 or 30 minutes. And I knew like it was going to help me get through that. Nice. You heard it here guys pro tip from Amanda? Yeah. Make it fun. That's awesome. So, you know, pandemic aside, what would your year have looked like? Like what were your key events that you were targeting and what we'll talk about, like how the rest of the year is gonna play out, but what was your calendar looking like? So I would have been in Kansas last weekend for the DK camp and then I would have been at sea Otter coming up. And then I would have been spending some time in mammoth coming back for Belgian waffle ride and then pretty much getting ready for DK XL after that. And then in July I was going to go do the rift. That's probably definitely not happening. And then August I was considering going to grab a worlds for the first time, which is kind of a bummer. And then, yeah, I had a big plan actually the beginning of September to do this event called the caldera 500, which is a really small, underground backpacking thing, but it's in the Eastern Sierra and it starts and finishes and mammoth. So my whole goal this year was three 50, figure out how to ride 500 miles in the mountains and then, you know, get ready for mammoth tough and do that event for everyone. So, yeah, that was the original plan When you were, I didn't realize you were, you were doing DK XL, not just DK. Yeah. Yeah. How were you thinking, how were you thinking about that? Were you just sort of thinking, you know, you're at the point where your, your body's ready to kind of tackle some more ultra distance style stuff? No, I don't think I was physically ready for that at all. It was, it was honestly more of a mental thing when you finish five of the Kansas, you get this like grail cup thing and it's the, the thousand mile club basically. And so David and I both finished five last year and once you finished five, it's like, okay, now what, you know? And I think it was nice to have the option of the three 50 because the way that I look at going back in 2015, when I was thinking about doing dirty Kanza for the first time I wasn't concerned about winning. I honestly just wanted to finish it. And I had no idea if I could do 200 miles or not. And that was the biggest appeal to me, honestly, of going to do that because David had done it the year before, and I was like, you're nuts doing 200 miles. Like why would anybody do that? And you know, fast forward five and a half years, and it's the exact same thing I'm saying about the three 15, it's a fun place to be. I'm afraid to do something new. Cause that was the whole reason why we started doing this stuff to begin with. And I think it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next decade, if that is a natural evolution for some people or if it is the kind of distance that's a little too daunting. But the way things are looking with, you know, increased participation in that event, I think maybe it becomes the next step for people. Yeah. It is interesting to think about like, what is too much even like, you know, obviously DK 200 for the average athlete is that, you know, Dawn to evening kind of endeavor you know, much like an iron man distance triathlon. And once you start taking it fully overnight or over a couple of days, yeah, it does become this sort of rarefied area of athlete that is going to say, Hey, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a big commitment. And th the unique thing about it that I've heard people talk about, who've done it before is, you know, like a J Peter, very who does these ultra events and this really long distance stuff, sleep is a factor. And it's something that is a tactic in those events, but you go to a distance like 350 miles, it's doable in one swing, you take sleep out of the equation. And all of a sudden everybody's dealing with like sleep deprivation instead of strategizing naps, like they would for bike packing stuff. So it is something that makes, I think that distance unique because it's doable in 24 to 36 hours, so you can get away with not sleeping, but how does the body handle that? Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing. Like you, it's really hard to simulate that and to imagine doing many of them in any one year. So I feel like you're going to learn, you would learn a lot of tough lessons when you do it. Oh, I should have done this. Right. I could have saved myself hours if I had just made that one critical decision and it's going to be, you know, a multiyear process of learning like these guys, you know, like J Peter Barry that you mentioned have figured out, like they know where they can push the body where they need to turn it off and just take a break in order for the bigger goal of just moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know I was talking to URI about it at DK camp last year, asking him about it and if he would ever do it again, and he said, never like, he doesn't want to touch that thing ever again. And that's so scary to me because it's like, I don't know. There's still a lot of hard things that I've done where you think like, I can do that better, or I want to try it again and try to do it better. And he's just like, I am not touching that thing again. And I'm like an emotional level. It was too much for him. That's really fascinating. So the other big thing, yeah. Obviously like for your fall this year is you, you guys actually started to plan your own event. Can you talk about how that came about and what are the details? Yeah. so it probably happened, I don't know, three years ago or so. David and I would go ride in Bishop, which is a little bit South of mammoth and there's a bike shop there called Arrowhead cycles. And these local guys just do these gravel rides out there. And we showed up to one, we did a couple cross races with them and it was so much fun. And we realized during these rides that they have like the most amazing gravel in that long Valley caldera and all the areas surrounding mammoth. And, you know, we had done dirty Kansas traveled across the country to go to all these races and here, you know, five and a half hours North of where we lived with some of the best gravel that we had ever seen. And we were torn between, do we want to keep this a secret and leave it to us only? Or, you know, as we started going to other events, we were like, no, we want to bring our friends here to do this and ride this area because it's so awesome. And yeah, that's kind of, that was the Genesis of it. It was just knowing that we had something so beautiful in what we would call her backyard. Cause we're up in mammoth so often. And we, yeah, we wanted to share it with people. So it started with doing all these adventure Ries and we were like, okay, well what kind of route could we do? And yeah, that was how it was all birthed was basically these knuckleheads that live in Bishop that know all the great roads down there. Right. That's awesome. And mammoth obviously has a story tradition in the, on the mountain bike side of the sport as being just this Epic destination for a race and all the pictures you guys have posted so far leads me to believe that gravel is just awesome out there. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's interesting you say that because they have historically hosted those kamikaze games for a very long time and it does have a rich history of mountain biking. And 2019 was the year they canceled it. So they canceled kamikaze games, you know, just didn't have enough traction anymore for the mammoth and we're not making enough money, whatever the case may be. And we strategically picked that weekend to host mammoth tough because we, it would be nice to bring enough people back up to that area that, you know, maybe the kamikaze games could come back in the future. It would, that's like the big goal is to turn it into a nice bike festival of sorts. Again, whether that's, you know, gravel and mountain or whatever. But it's, it does have such a rich history in bike racing period. And so that was part of the reason why we wanted to go back there. And the nice thing about that weekend is it's still the, the closing weekend of the bike park. So it's the last time, you know, the chairlifts are running and you can still go ride mountain bikes if you want to. And your friends can do the gravel race if they're dumb enough to. So tell us the details. What's the actual date and what does the event look like? How long is it? What does the climbing look like? Yeah, so it's September 19th, 2020, if we're still allowed to be in mammoth at that time. Right now they're, you know, obviously trying to keep visitors away from mono County. And yeah, it is a short distance of around 41 ish miles and the long distance, I just went through the route again today it's 108 miles and it's going to be a doozy. And yeah, I would highly suggest if you're like concerned at all about the distance of doing 108 and eight miles at that elevation to start with the shorter one. Because if you're questioning it at all, I would rather have you finish the event and get a taste of what it's going to be. And that was kind of the way that we wanted to set it up anyways, to make it like a stepping stone of sorts to get into the, to be able to do 108 miles up there. But the cool thing is also a lot of the short course is most of it's actually going to use roads that aren't in the long course route as well. So it's a complete, almost a different event cause it's going to be in a different area. And yeah, so hopefully those two options are going to be good for people. The, that weekend is also the same time they do October Fest in the village. So we've partnered with them to know, you know, do food and beer and all that stuff at the end. So it's kinda nice that they have a party set up for us. Yeah. That's totally handy. And that the mammoth, the start lines at about 8,000 feet, is that correct? Yes. And that's pretty much as high as you'll get, cause you're going to go downhill from there and then back up to that elevation and you might match 8,000 at some point, but you're never going to be climbing over that. So it's not going to be anything crazy like Leadville. Okay. That's good to know. Cause I was thinking a couple thousand more feet of climbing at thousand feet. The lights are gonna turn off. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's going to be hard though. It's one of those, like another reason why we wanted to do this event, I go and ride up there a lot because it's really great training because of the altitude. And it's, it's so funny riding up there consistently and knowing like exactly how much lower your power is than at sea level, because it's, it's so hard, but it's a lot of fun. It's pretty, it's worth it. Now. It's exciting that that type of event is now on the calendar because I think like Leadville and other sort of high elevation events, they just become this interesting thing, this interesting challenge in the community, just something different to target, right? Like I know I can ride 108 miles, but can I do it at 8,000 feet of elevation? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's, that's one of the cool things that makes gravel so great period, is that everything about it and all these different events, there's something unique at all of them, you know? And they're like, I like to think there are, there's like the Midwest style gravel rolling Hills. And then there's also this like mountain gravel, which, you know, it's funny to call it that, but there is that separate discipline. That's completely different from a Kanza or a grovel worlds where there are sustained climbs. And that makes it a very different event than something where it's con rollers like the whole time. Some like lost. I'm glad you mentioned that because it's been something that I've tried to tease out over the last couple of years because it, when I got into gravel and I chose like a bike that maxed out at 38 C tire, actually less 36 see tires, I was like, this is just not the right bike for me, but it dawned on me like for the things I was reading about in the Midwest, it probably was a totally suitable bike. And for me, you know, I ended up in this sort of mountain style gravel here in Marin County and I won't shut up about six 50 B, 40 sevens and 50 tires. And I'd probably go even bigger if my current frame allowed it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's, what's so cool about it. Like I said, like, that's your definition of it. You have your equipment that fits that. And there are people that, you know, are on the complete opposite end of the spectrum where like their definition of a gravel of ant is doing Belgium waffle ride every year. And that's like, you know, a road bike with 28 seat tires. So, you know, you can find anything in between. I'm always surprised when people online will totally discount something, like take the Niner, MCR, the full suspension bike, like it does have a home unequivocally I'm prepared to say that like, that is a great bike for some writer. Whereas, you know, as you said, it may be totally unsuitable for some writers out there in their native terrain. Yeah, exactly. And That's the great thing about it is that there's something for everyone and it's, you get to define what you want gravel to be. That's the great thing is like it's not road racing or crit racing where there's a pretty good definition. You know, what to expect in those events. And gravel is like, well, you can get a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And like you can pick a small event that is 200 people, or you can pick a big event that has got 5,000 like and anything in between. So I like that it's up to you to define what you want it to be. Yeah. And then the other thing is like the personality of the bike can change with just the simple change of tire. Yeah, yeah. For sure. I was just talking to somebody. Yeah, Yeah. Go ahead Amanda. Oh, so I was just talking to somebody about you know, what's the, the, the easiest thing I can do to make like a gravel ride comfortable. And I said like tubeless tires and like wider tires and that's it. And it's so true how it's something very small and minuscule, but if you take the time to figure out right tire pressures and good sealant and all that stuff, it could make a world of difference and make the ride quality completely different. And like a lot of these bikes with the same, to be quite honest and, you know, but the difference between having 60 PSI and knowing that you can get away with 23 PSI in a specific tire and make it super cushy, that's a huge difference. And it's going to be the difference between rattling your brains out and like having a nice, smooth ride Totally. And having, just getting that skill set. I think of being able to change a tubeless tire is important as gravel cyclists, because you can really maximize your enjoyment. Like I, I have some sort of semi slick tires that I put on the bikes specifically to explore further routes that are, are gonna involve more road riding. And like, I, I would not take that route with my knobby tires just because I'm like, why would I do that? But once I put a semi slick on all of a sudden, I'm like, cool, I can ride 20 miles on a road and explore some gravel that I've never seen before. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And in that, in that same vein I started working with Rene Herse this year and on their tires and that's opened my eyes in like what's possible with a really fat wide you think is a slow tire and it ends up being super fast and awesome. And being able to like change tire pressures on a ride, you know, if you know, you're gonna have to be on the road for an hour, you know, you can pump it up a little bit and then as you get to dirt, take some out. But yeah, it's been fun. I've had the privilege of not having a tire sponsor for all the years that I've been doing gravel stuff and I've had the ability to just test whatever and ride a lot. I love there's like certain that I'll ride for certain events because I know that they have tires that fit that. And then, you know, I don't have like a deal per se with a Renee her's tires this year, but, you know, they're giving me the opportunity to test a bunch of their stuff and find out what I like in that line. And it's been fun cause I, you know, as a cyclocross nerd tire choice and pressure and all that stuff is huge in that discipline. And it's been a lot of fun to carry that over into gravel because you go from like four or five different tread options to like 400 different tread options. So yeah, yeah. Right on, well, as we close the podcast section of this conversation, is there any advice you'd give up and coming women athletes who are looking to gravel as kind of an opportunity in the cycling space? Oh yeah. That's a good question. I think the, the biggest piece of advice I have is like, don't be afraid to just try something new. I, I was lucky enough to have a lot of friends that wanted to go do these crazy adventure rides with me. And I think that that's a big barrier to entry for a lot of women is feeling uncomfortable to go do it themselves. But what I've found is that there are a lot of like really inclusive, welcoming people in the community that even if you go do one of them by yourself and you're afraid to go do it, I promise you'll make a friend when you're out there riding. And that's, I think my favorite part about doing these events is like, I'll go in it knowing six or seven people, my teammates, you know, guys that I want to ride with. And I ended up finishing the event with a bunch of other friends because, you know, stuff happens out there and you end up with people that are riding similar strength to you. And that's the best part it's like walking away at the finish and you're like, Oh, I'm going to find you on Strava. Or like, okay. Yeah, here's my Instagram. And you make new friends. And I think that's, that's the best part, but it is scary to jump in and commit to it. So that's my, my biggest thing is just try it. Yeah. I think that's great advice, Amanda. And I think that's a good place to end the podcast section. So thanks for coming on to report the record the podcast this week. And we had Amanda, we had one more, we had one more question that came over Instagram about the Michigan coast to coast. And just, I think just generally getting your feelings on that race About it, like should do it. Yes. Yeah. So I did, I've done the past two years when it including the inaugural year and that started because Matt Aker came up to me after mid South in 2018 and he was like, Hey, I'm doing this crazy 200 mile race in Michigan. And all I was thinking of was like, I dunno if I can do another 200 miles in the same year as you know, doing 200 for dirty Kanza, but they convinced me to go. And the, I knew mento Dijon was going to go and at the time he was writing for cliff and also writing for Niner. So I think we both were like, okay, let's just go do it and see what happens. And it ended up being awesome. It's this point to point race. And do you normally the like closer to the end of June? So you have like three or four weeks after dirty Kanza to get ready for it. I tell people if you don't get into dirty Kanza, you should do Michigan coast to coast because it's a good backup plan. You know, if you don't get in the lottery for decay. And it's a super fun, I like it. The, the fact that it's a point to point is a pro and a con the pro is that it's awesome to never have to see the same thing twice. And then the con is logistically it's kind of hard to plan for because you're, you gotta get your car to one end, you know, or whatever your transportation is. But there's a lot of people that will do the relay. So your, your partner does the first hundred and then, you know, you switch and somebody does the second hundred, which is pretty cool. Okay. And do they have, do they have like a bus or something that will bring you back if you have to get back to your car? Yeah. There's I think the service that they do is you, you park your car at the end and then they like take you that morning or something. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a lot of fun. It's definitely unique. The psycho crossers out there will enjoy it. Cause there's a ton of sand. So I know like a few people that did the event that weren't expecting that weren't very happy about it. Cause like you have to know how to ride sand and or else it sucks. Oh man. I'm, I'm all for it in events to throw different skillsets at you. Cause I think I want to see that, like I want to see the winner having good power on sort of flat, you know, the gravelly Rowley roads, but also have the technical skills to handle rock gardens and sand, sand pits, everything. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, and that's, you know, not to throw too much shade, but that was why I was really excited to see how Stetten his year was going to go. Cause he's such a roadie that like how how's he gonna, you know, bike handle at some of these events? Yeah. I mean, clearly like anybody who's spent as much time on the bike to become a pro roadie, like they're going to have the handling skills, but I did notice like, you know, you were too busy racing, but I was watching that coverage of mid South. And when, when it got gunked up on the bike and he's like, man handling his derailer, I couldn't help. But think like here's the disaster waiting to happen. Whereas, yeah. Whereas Payson's like dipping his bike and, you know, shedding the mud and very carefully shifting gears knowing that like, if they've all falls apart, it's on him. So I thought that was fascinating. And I'm kind of with you, I don't want to throw shade, but I was kinda like, yeah, like you have to have experience in the dirt and grit and mud. I want, I want you to have to have that to win these races. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's not so much shade as it is. Like, that's what makes this stuff interesting. Like, you know, he's all in to try and win this stuff you're like, but should you have really written through the mud like that? And you messed up your derailleur. Yeah. And like looking at BWR, it's like, you know, okay cool. Like if, if I realized that, you know, it's going to be won and lost in the dirt, but it's a different skill set than a full dirt race, you know, I think that's interesting. You do see different athletes shining there. They're not going to make them shine at some of these other gnarlier events. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Cause when I was talking to Renee Harris at the beginning of this year about doing the tires, you know, Ted King obviously rides those tires and I got her on the phone with him to talk about stuff and he's like, yeah, you know, I rode the 30 fives at Belgian waffle ride. And his thought process was hoping that Stefano was going to have a hard time in the dirt and that the 30 fives would be an advantage for Ted. And it's like, I love stuff like that. I love like the thinking and the thought process behind all of that. Well, that's definitely my jam. I'm just hoping it gets really, really technical if I'm ever going to get ahead of anybody. Yeah, exactly. Out of my way. All right, Amanda. Well, this was awesome. I appreciate you making the time to catch up with us. And it was, it was fun to see this and do this looking at you face to face. Yeah, yeah. For sure. You, you've got a lot of great podcasts and you know, as somebody that was trying to put on an event for the first time this year, you have a lot of great conversations with race promoters. And it's, you know, I want to say thank you for doing that because it's a different side and angle of this discipline that I don't think people talk enough about like, yeah, there's so many great events and stuff, but the work that goes into putting on an event, like you talked to Sam and you talk to the Mount lemon, you know, gravel grinder guys, like all those stories, it all comes from a love of the places that you ride. And I think that that's so cool. And it's great to see all these promoters, you know, wanting to share the great roads that they know about with everybody else. And, and that's something I think that's so unique to, to this discipline. So it's great to hear that side of the story and I, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to those people, not just, you know, bike racers that are trying to go smash it on those roads. Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate those kind words and absolutely. I mean, I think now more than ever, we need to be showering, love and respect on event organizers. And as we've talked about offline, like this, fall's going to be complicated in terms of there's going to be so many great events. And you know, my advice to people is just put as many on your calendar as you can possibly do and kind of spread the love around between different events. Because if we're not supporting the event, organizing community, they're not going to be around next year. No one is, this is not generally speaking of money, making venture for anybody. It's really coming out of a love of showcasing the great roads trails in their neck of the woods, as you said. So. Yeah, I think it's super important. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what, what were you going to be at? Let's say we're allowed to start racing August. What was your August and September going to look like? Yes, it's a good question. So I had a little bit of a back issue over the winter, so I was kind of like personally looking towards the end of the year already. So, you know, not say the pandemic worked in my favorite cause it's been utter hell, but yeah, I wanted to do lost and found. I wanted to do Rebecca's private Idaho. I was thinking about the Oregon trail, gravel grinder, but worried, I might not have the time to spend a week up there, but I love what those guys have created up there. Yeah. Yeah. So those were the three that were on my mind. And then here in Marin County, we've got adventure revival. There's a bunch of the grasshoppers that are awesome. So like wherever they might fit into my life, I would love to kind of add those guys in because again, the community is great. They're mellow. Like the Miguel, the organizers just been, he knows how to do it. Right. And it doesn't feel overblown, but it doesn't feel under done as well. Yeah, so those are my thoughts. I still like super excited to go to Idaho. If that works out, I've got a podcast coming up with Rebecca and like she was preaching to the choir whenever she says things like, Oh, I wanted to put something more mountain biking in here. I'm like, yes, because I could, I could at least thrive in one section of the course. And I love, I love being in the mountains. And you know, when I heard about mammoth tough, I had a similar type reaction. I'm like, that's one. I definitely want to get on my longterm list because like, I just know when I'm looking around, it's going to be, it's going to just fill my soul with joy. And that's, I mean, that for me, that's what the mountains do. And those are the events that I'm generally drawn towards. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I know what you mean and yeah, it's kinda, I just wonder what's going to happen later this year. I know that look, were you planning on being a dirty Kanza Or no, I wasn't going to be able to make it okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that moving to September you know, I listened to the conversation with Jim and you know, all the weather and everything seems like it should be pretty similar to the conditions in June. But I, at the same time, like, I don't even know how many people are going to be comfortable traveling still at that time. And that's what makes me weary about all these events coming up. And you know, in two weeks from now, we can look back on this conversation and just laugh. Cause maybe it's not even possible at all. But I'd like to remain hopeful, you know, that some stuff keeps happening. Oh, I do want to take a minute and remind people to freaking quit riding in groups. Do you need to go on that rent? Cause it's still happening and I am. Yeah. I'm not happy about it. Every time I go out on the weekend specifically, I'm like, I know all of you don't live together. This needs to stop I'm with you as well. Yeah. Instagram is throwing up a timer that says I have one 48 left. So apparently there's a time limit on this thing. And we found it. I feel like super accomplished that we hit it. Nice. Nice. Alright cool. Well Amanda, thanks again. And we'll talk again soon. All right. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks everyone.  

This week Kathryn and Kristi chat with Amanda Nauman, collegiate swimmer turned cross and gravel racer. Amanda shares her story of getting into cycling during college, how she got her nickname "Amanda Panda" and her take on race planning for the Mammoth TUFF gravel event. Plus her take on recent events, virtual races during the pandemic and her new quarantine pet!

The global Covid-19 crisis has lead to the cancelation or postponement of most gravel events this year.   With community health of utmost importance, race directors have and continue to have to make tough decisions about their events.  Meanwhile, professional and amateur gravel athletes alike have been forced to create new goals and objectives.  The Lyman Agency brought together a who's who of the gravel event and gravel racing community to have a friendly conversation about what is next for gravel and how we all should be looking at 2020 and beyond.  Panelists Directors-- Amy Charity, SBT Grvl; Bobby Wintle, Mid South; Burke Swindlehurst, Crusher in the Tushar; LeLan Dains, Dirty Kanza; Rebecca Rusch, RPI; Steve Matous, NICA ED (until 2:30).  Pros--  Amanda Nauman, Colin Strickland, Kaysee Armstrong, Payson McElveen, Pete Stetina, Ted King. Support the Podcast.

Join us for an amazing discussion on sweat rate, sodium testing and appropriation, as well as hearing Amanda's feedback on how her rockstar 2nd place finish went down at the muddy Mid South! Precision Hydration offered our listeners a 15% off your first order code of "precisionmud" at www.precisionhydration.com and I'd encourage you to use this calculator to check your sweat rate. Check this link!  

Bobby and Jeffy sat down recently to discuss a BRAND NEW Gravel Event to put onto your September calendar. Mammoth Tuff! Dave Sheek and Amanda Nauman are taking their passion for gravel and the Mammoth Lakes, California and putting it into a new gravel event! Listen for all the details direct from the promoters themselves!! Cya in September!!!

Bobby and Jeffy fly out to California for The Rock Cobbler! They join up with Amanda Nauman and David Sheek to discuss the weekend adventure race!

With the curious noob out of the office, Zach and gravel-cyclocross-mtb veteran, Amanda Nauman, get deep really into the roadside weeds about the state of gravel in the U.S. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Catch up on Zach's gravel, cyclocross, and everything bikes reporting at www.cxmagazine.com. And follow him on Twitter at @theshoestar. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don't hesitate to call the hot line: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do.) Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

With the curious noob out of the office, Zach and gravel-cyclocross-mtb veteran, Amanda Nauman, get deep really into the roadside weeds about the state of gravel in the U.S. You can follow Amanda on Twitter at @_amanda_panda_ and on Instagram at @amanda_panda_. Catch up on Zach's gravel, cyclocross, and everything bikes reporting at www.cxmagazine.com. And follow him on Twitter at @theshoestar. This episode brought to you by Whoop. Go to www.whoop.com and use the code cxhairs to get 15% off a 12 or 18 month subscription. Please subscribe to The Parts Bin and all of the Wide Angle Podium shows on Apple Podcasts, if that’s how you consume podcasts. Also, rate and review, even if Apple Podcasts is not the way you consume podcasts. To keep up to date, follow @cxhairs  on Instagram and Twitter. Have a question, comment, complaint or general inquiry? Hit us up at feedback@cxhairs.com And don't hesitate to call the hot line: 405-CXHAIRS. Need coffee? (Trick question, you do.) Check out our partnership with Grimpeur Bros and the amazingly tasty Hello Cyclocross Friends! Espresso blend. You can get these flavorful and possibly magical beans here: https://www.grimpeurbros.com/products/hello-cyclocross-friends-wap-espresso

Caught up with three of our favorites (in order of appearance): Toms Skujins, Pete Stetina and Amanda Nauman on what it's like to play with bikes professionally in 2019. Topics discussed include riding with kegs, the best culinary use of the potato and of course, gravel.

First off, Amanda "Panda" Nauman is freaking awesome. She's a legit pro cyclist that performs just as well racing short course cyclocross as she does 200 mile gravel grinders. She's won DK200, Land Run 100, Coast 2 Coast 200, Belgian Waffle Ride, and countless other events. Aside from having loads of cycling power, she's a down to earth bike geek who loves to tech out on bike details, while wearing a big smile on her face.

Land Run 2019 blew away expectations! Our final podcast covering Land Run features tall tales from Emporia riders Paulina Batiz, Rick Becker, Jeff Young and defending Land Run Champ, Amanda Nauman!

David Sheek with Carmichael Training Systems talks how to build up for your biggest ride ever. Amanda Nauman leads us through her race week building up to toeing the start line.

This week special guest appearance by Amanda Nauman, as she was in town to ride MIchigan Coast to Coast.  We talk about the race and some of the tech involved...and yes me falling out of the van!!! Scott Dedenbach is on Twitter at @bikeshopcx @cyclocrossnet. Mr. David Palan is on Twitter at @mrdavidpalan. More info on Michigan C2C here:  This podcast is also supported by Health IQ, a life insurance company that celebrates the health conscious, including cyclists. Visit healthiq.com/bikeshop to learn more & get a free quote, or check out their life insurance FAQ page to get your questions answered. If your on mobile and want to listen through Spotify: click here. Thanks as always for tuning in. If this is your first time listening, you can explore the rest of our episodes here. Bike Shop CX is part of the Wide Angle Podium podcast network. Check out  www.wideanglepodium.com, listen to the shows, and consider becoming a member.

Amanda Nauman is one of the top gravel racers and cyclocrossers in the U.S. We spoke with her about both disciplines, gravel gear, the state of U.S. cyclocross and more in this interview with the SoCal native. For more cyclocross and gravel coverage, see our site at cxmagazine.com. Photo: Ian Hylands Music: Osiris Saline

This week we put up a marathon show that is actually 2 shows together.  We talk with Amanda Nauman pre Providence about the upcoming race.  Then John Gatch does another faces from the grid followed by Spencer Petrov telling us about his great weekend in the junior race and his upcoming trip to Europe.  Then we finish it off with Scot Herman talking Providence results and the upcoming B post bank series.