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Alt, Indie, Experimental, Hip Hop, Noise Rock, Country, Americana, Disco Alt Folk, Latin, Funk, and Dance from musicians of the Ojibwe, Apache, Cree, Anishinaabe, Cherokee, Apsaalooké, Mohawk, Navajo, Kanza, Nisenan, Atikamekw, Métis, Iñupiaq and Cayuga Nations. Brought to you by Tunes From Turtle Island and Pantheon Podcasts. If you like the music you hear, go out and buy/stream some of it. :) All these artists need your support. Tracks on this week's show are: CHAIN - Back To Start Zachariah Julian & Brian Burton - Besh Waawaasmokwe - Plead ns 2.32 Pop RnB Hip Hop Anishinaabe artist based in Montreal Waawaasmokwe @waawaasmokwe Tchutchu - Ekleeipsis - PLEIADES ver Divide and Disolve - Monolithic Nige B & Coletta & Rezcoast Grizz & Dubbygotbars - My Body GDubz & Aluna Dragon & Joaqopelli - Shadow Work Raymond Sewell & January Rodgers - Yahwey Shub & JRDN - Part Of Me Natural Vibrations - Party & Dance Keith Secola - NDN Kars (Dark Winds Version) Brothers Wilde - Buzzin Kyle McKearney - The Man From Beaverlodge Quinn Christopherson & Nature - Hot Dog On A Stick Indigenous & LARJ - Flipping It Renya Tropical & Amantes Del Futuro - Concerla Amantes Del Futro edit ABO - Good Vibes The Uhmazing - Tonantzin Adam V & Darksiderz & CGK - Bang Bang DS & CGK remix Kris Kinowin - Nipin Illiano - All I Need B-Side Players - Make It Through Joe T Vannelli & Eartha Kitt - Where Is My Man 2025 remix The Halluci Nation & Bret 'The Hitman' Hart & Northern Cree - Sharpshooter All songs on this podcast are owned by the artist(s) and are used for educational purposes only. All songs can be found for purchase or streaming wherever you get your great music. Please pick up these amazing tracks and support these artists. More info on the show here
Indie, Alt-Rock, Doom-noise, Hiphop, Country, Singer-songwriter, Rock, Funk, Electro-Soul, Ska, Reggae from members of the Seminole, Mohawk, Cree, Navajo, Innu, Metis, Tłı̨chǫ, Squamish, Chippewa, Apache, Kanza, Ojibwe, Dakota, Oglala Sioux and Mi'kmaq nations. Brought to you by Tunes From Turtle Island and Pantheon Podcasts. If you like the music you hear, go out and buy/stream some of it. :) All these artists need your support. Tracks on this week's show are: Nick The Native - In The Garden OPLIAM - Blood Memory Jayli Wolf - Shadow Song Echthros - Horrible Wound//The Flood Jade Turner - Marion Def-i & Phillip Drumond - Poppin John The Sillyette's - Snot Naja P - Taqqama Digawolf - Snowshoes Liv Wade - Nothing At All Lady Sinncere - Celebrate The Day Lady Sinncere & A-Slam & Christie Lee & Angie Faith & Chief Ian Campbell - How We RiseLS Piere Mongeon & Brenda Maclntyre, Medicine Song Woman - Mother Earth Indigenous & Medali0n & GDubz - Skoden Nadjiwan - Mescalero LOCVHONTVS - Dont Phase Me Tufawon - Your Universe Melody McArthur Ft Bryce Morin - Beast Of Burden Rhonda Head - Baby You're My Good Thing Joey Stylez & Pete Sands & Jason Chakita - The Toll Twin Flames - Just Like A Ghost The Northstars - Talk About It Ruby Singh & Piqsiq & Dawn Pemberton & Shamik & Russel Wallace & Tiffany Moses & Hussein Janmohamed - Radiate Cliff Cardinal & The Sky-Larks - Bipolar Coke Addict Lenka Lichtenberg & Shy-Anne Hovorka - FootPrints Lavva & FR33SOL -Nu Growth Nakho And Medicine For The People - My Country Acoustic Street Pharmacy - Stoned Jodie B - AIJ All songs on this podcast are owned by the artist(s) and are used for educational purposes only. All songs can be found for purchase or streaming wherever you get your great music. Please pick up these amazing tracks and support these artists. More info on the show here.
Indigenous made Folk, Rock, Country, Americana, Indie, Hip Hop, Powwow, Dub Step from members of the Anishinaabekwe, Potawatomi, Oglala Lakota, Seneca, Mi'kmaq, Nakota, Cree, Tlingit, Kanza and Arapaho Nations. Brought to you by Tunes From Turtle Island and Pantheon Podcasts. If you like the music you hear, go out and buy/stream some of it. :) All these artists need your support. Tracks on this week's show are: Fiadh & Christian Wallowing Bull - The Fox Elexa Dawson & Stanley Hotel - Lonley Coyote Sultans of String & Raven Kanatakta - Take Off The Crown Aspects - Hate Coming Down Ryan LittleEagle & Clayton Ryan & Tom Frear - Til I'm Gone Indian City - Strawberries And Champagne Isolated South - Lost The Wave (Plagued) Sober Junkie - We Do Recover DLopez & Jodie B - I Can't Complain Jahkota - Trippen Bear Creek - Long Ago Pisim & Dakota Bear & Dem Rosé Boys & Jeremy Parkin - Ain't Change Terrance.Jade & Jesse KillsBack - Burn It Up (One More Time) Feathers And Arrows - Warriors Stella Standingbear - On It Indigenous & Medalli0n - Skoden All songs on this podcast are owned by the artist(s) and are used for educational purposes only. All songs can be found for purchase or streaming wherever you get your great music. Please pick up these amazing tracks and support these artists. More info on the show here.
durée : 01:58:51 - Pierre Génisson ; Quatuor Arod ; Fiona McGown et Joséphine Ambroselli ; Macha Kanza ; Quintet Quai de la Seine - par : Clément Rochefort - Pierre Génisson, clarinettes, joue Mozart avec Laure Favre-Kahn, piano, et le Quatuor Arod ; Fiona McGown, mezzo-soprano, et Joséphine Ambroselli, piano ; Macha Kanza, piano, joue Enesco ; le quintet Quai de la Seine : Réchauffement chromatique - réalisé par : Sophie Pichon
Indigenous made Dub Step, Hip Hop, Pop, Indie, Techno, Indie, Synth Rock, and Folk from members of the Inuk, Ojibwe, Kanza, Metis, Mohawk, Nisenan, Washoe, Nuxalk, Apache, Wolastoqiyik, Anishnabe, and Diné Nations. . Brought to you by Tunes From Turtle Island and Pantheon Podcasts. If you like the music you hear, go out and buy some of it. :) All these artists need your support. Tracks on this week's show are: Troy Kokol - Lead Balloon Sake Red - Proud Thea May & Troy Junker - Fires Tyler Ogimaa & Nucky Jmc - Ride Away Tom Wilson & Thompson Wilson - Turtle Dream #3 Northern Knowledge & Dave Jamal - Thinking Of You Darksiderz & Kamikaze - Let It Drop Red Poets Society & Twin City Tone & Tall Paul - Weight For It Rollah Mack - Local Legend iskwe - End Of It All Lindy Vision - D.B.I.A. (Driving Black In America) Kahtolin - Qanute 2 Mattmac & Mariame - Find My Love Harry Wylde - Anishinabe Soleil Launière - Taueu Piekuakami Melody McArthur - Fires All Over Town Elisapie - Qimatsiluga (I Want To Break Free) All songs on this podcast are owned by the artist(s) and are used for educational purposes only. All songs can be found for purchase or streaming wherever you get your great music. Please pick up these amazing tracks and support these artists. More info on the show here.
Welcome to Chapter 48 of the Okie Bookcast!My guest is Susy Smith, author of Ascendant, the new book in her award-winning Asylum series, a set of dystopian novels set in Oklahoma that explore the intricacies of survival, freedom, and the dark side of human nature. In our conversation we talk about her novels and about starting her writing career a bit later in life. We also talk about setting books in Oklahoma, her poetry, and her important work with the Kanza tribe in the area of language learning and retention. Connect with Susy: website | Facebook | TikTok | Instagram | TwitterOur review for this episode comes from poet Sydney Aerin. Sydney is a licensed therapist who is passionate about mental health education, disability awareness, and equality for all. You can find Sydney's performance and publication information on her Instagram (@sydneysometimes), including a couple of performances coming later in September at the Sunny Dayz Mural Festival and Norman Arts in the Wind. You can also hear Sydney perform her poetry in Volume 5 and the upcoming Volume 6 of Behind the Rain, our audio anthology of Oklahoma poetry at okiebookcast.com/behind the rain. Sydney is reviewing Love Letters for Women, a poetry collection by another Oklahoma City poet (and Behind the Rain contributor) Kristen Grace. Connect with Sydney: InstagramMentioned on the Show:Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit - J.R.R. TolkienThe Hunger Games - Suzanne CollinsThe Walking Dead - Robert Kirkman and Tony MooreRobert FrostEdgar Allen PoeThe Inheritance Games series - Jennifer Lynn BarnesThe Brothers Hawthorne - Jennifer Lynn BarnesWhere the Red Fern Grows - Wilson RawlsA Wrinkle in Time and A Wind in the Door - Madeline L'EngleEmily of New Moon series - Lucy Maud MontgomeryConnect with J: website | Twitter | Instagram | FacebookShop the Bookcast on Bookshop.orgMusic by JuliusH
The story of The Trails to the Washita is about when civilization in Kansas began traversing the gilded regions of the plains. It was also a time when the Native Americans in this region became alarmed at this new encroachment. They were ready at any moment for a desperate, final effort to drive out the invaders of his hunting grounds. In part one, entitled Custer's Return, we tell many early back stories of Sheridan's campaign against the central plains Indians. These backstories include the Cheyenne raid against the Kanza tribe in Council Grove, Sullys September 1868 expedition in the South, Forsyth's battle at Arickaree River, Custer's arrival at Fort Hays and the October 12 capture of Clara Blinn. If you have any comments or want to add to our series, please write us at wildwestpodcast@gmail.com. We will share your thoughts or questions as they apply to future episodes. Cattle Drives WebsiteLegends of Dodge City WebsiteOrder Books
Susy Smith's FacebookSusy Smith's InstagramSusy Smith's TwitterJulia Daily's WebsiteJulia Daily's Twitter Julia Daily's FacebookJulia Daily's Instagram Julia Daily's Linked In Julia Daily's Goodreads Authors Over 50 Podcast Links:Amazon MusicSpotifyApple PodcastsGoogle Podcasts - authors over 50Julia Daily's WebsiteThank you, Holly Shannon, Zero to Podcast coach and host of Culture Factor 2.0. https://hollyshannon.com and Sean McNulty, Sound Engineer.
This episode is an interview with Original Northern Lights / Lites 80s Crew Member, Seattle Greg. This is the history, as we know it, of the cannabis strain more popularly known and remembered as Northern Lights. Starting with the Steve Murphy (Murphy Stevens to some) Afghani and onto stardom via Nevil Schoenmaekers Seedbank.Breeders Syndicate website coming soon: http://www.breederpodcast.comFind Breeders Syndicate in Instagram @BreedersSyndicateFind Breeders Syndicate on Twitter: @strainhistoryFind Matthew Riot on Instagram: @riotseeds or @riotseedcoFind Notsodog on Instagram as @notsodogRiot Seeds website: https://www.riotseeds.com
Kali ini Alfi dan Jule berbincang bersama salah satu author AU yaitu Kanza (@lilsunhc66) tentang dunia AU. Penasaran kan!! Simak podcast berikut ini yukkk Podcaster : Alfi & Jule Produser : Lulu Sofiannisa Editor : Cintana Follow Instagram @polimedia_radio & twitter @radio_polimedia
Segment 1 - 00:00 Segment 2 - 12:41 Segment 3 - 22:33 Segment 4 - 33:11 Tuesday's episode of In Focus featured guests from the City of Manhattan to preview the evening's legislative session. It's scheduled at 7 p.m. in Manhattan City Hall, televised on Cox Cable Channel 3 and livestreamed at CityofMHK.com/TV. The two discussed the recent announcement of Scorpion Biological Services, Inc. locating a new manufacturing facility in Pottawatomie County and the city's economic development package for the firm. Also on the agenda is consideration of a pay ordinance that would provide raises of varying sizes for about three quarters of city employees, the result of a pay study conducted by AGH, L.C. They also talked about the prospect of a proposed private development in Aggieville by Back 9 Development, currently going by the name FUZE. The $40 million commercial and retail development is anticipated to generate $1 million annually for the Aggieville TIF district. Wednesday's episode will feature guests from USD383 Manhattan-Ogden Schools and Fort Riley as well as a preview of the 'Kansas without the Kanza' panel planned at Manhattan Public Library.
This week we sit down with North Carolina based professional gravel / mtb racer, Dylan Johnson about his 2022 goals, coaching and his popular YouTube channel. Dylan Johnson Coaching Dylan Johnson YouTube Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated transcription, please excuse the typos: Dylan Johnson [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast, we've got professional, gravel and MTB racer. Dylan Johnson. Describing Dylan is simply a racer would be overly limiting. As Dylan is also a certified coach. And a YouTube personality. I've been watching a bunch of Dylan's videos on YouTube lately, where he covers. Coaching his personal journey as an athlete and give some detailed overviews of his participation in some of the biggest gravel and MTB races around. What I thought is interesting about his coverage of these events specifically is that I found there's a lot of takeaways from them, for me as a mid-pack rider. Not only does he describe what it's like to stay on the wheels of some of the top racers? In the united states he takes an honest look at his own capabilities as we all should as we're participating and talks about when he's burning more candles than he should to stay in a particular group and what the net effects of that tend to be at the end of these events i thought it was super interesting and i've really enjoyed his colorful personality on youtube so i encourage you to give it a view. Dylan has been accepted to race in the lifetime grand Prix series, which covers both gravel and MTB races. So I'm super curious how an athlete like the Olin is going to fare over the course of the year. And I do think that series is going to be interesting because it's going to test a lot of athletes capabilities across. A pretty diverse set of courses. With that intro out of the way let's jump right into my conversation with dylan Dylan, welcome to the show. [00:01:47] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:01:49] Craig Dalton: I'm super stuck to have this conversation. I've been enjoying your work on YouTube of late, and I'm interested very much to hear about your background. So why don't we use that as a starting point? Let's talk about how you got into cycling and what led you to gravel racing ultimately. [00:02:05] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. I think. Cycling seriously. I think my dad got me a mountain bike when I was probably 12 years old and started racing shortly after that. And I think by the time I was 15, I was, I was probably training pretty seriously. And I started in the mountain bike side for most of my. Career, if you want to call it that I've been an endurance mountain bike racer. And just recently, probably within the last two or three years made the transition not fully into gravel racing. I still, I still do mountain bike racing, but I would say I'm much more of a gravel racer now. [00:02:41] Craig Dalton: And what part of the country did you grow up in? [00:02:42] Dylan Johnson: I grew up in the Washington DC area and it's it's a pretty busy area, but I, I went to. School at Bravard college in? Western, North Carolina. And that's where I currently live. And I like it a lot better just because there's a lot less people. The writing is a lot better, both on the road side and on the gravel side and the mountain bike side, it's just, it's just all around. [00:03:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting. I went to school in Washington, DC as well, and started as a mountain biker there. And I will say it is remarkable within that DC, Maryland, and Virginia area. How much decent mountain biking is there? [00:03:18] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, it's, it's pretty good considering that it's such a densely populated area. I mean, there, there was a, there? was a kind of rich cycling scene, I guess, just because there's so many people that lived there, there, there just happened to be a lot of cyclists we're in, we're in DC. Did you live? [00:03:34] Craig Dalton: I w I went to American university, so I lived in Northwest [00:03:38] Dylan Johnson: Gotcha. [00:03:39] Craig Dalton: and then for a while I was working for a DC based company and stayed with a friend in Chevy, chase, Maryland. [00:03:46] Dylan Johnson: So when you ride, what? Like Patapsco regularly? [00:03:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah. exactly. And then, you know, big trips for mountain biking would be out to say front Royal or something like that. [00:03:58] Dylan Johnson: Patapsco was a little far from me. I was in, I was on the Virginia side. So I would regularly ride Wakefield down head go to front Royal on the weekend. Yeah. [00:04:07] Craig Dalton: So when you went down to university in North Carolina, had you already begun your mountain bike racing career at that point? [00:04:14] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I was, I, I went primarily just because Bravard college has a really good cycling team. They'd won multiple non-bank national championships as a team at that point. So. And it's honestly the main reason I went there. And I was part of the cycling team, race, mountain bikes for them, collegiate cycling or collegiate mountain biking is all short cross country races. There wasn't an endurance stuff, but there, there was a brief period of time where I was kind of trying to be a cross country, you know, traditional cross country, mountain bike racer. And I, I think that my strengths and my interests kind of lied more with endurance races. And by the time I was, I was a senior in college. I pretty much fully transitioned to be a endurance mountain bike racer. So I focused heavily on the NUE series. And for people that don't know what that is, it's a national series for a hundred mile mountain bike racing. And that was my main focus for probably four or five years. [00:05:16] Craig Dalton: That's interesting. Were you studying exercise physiology? I know it. And we'll get into the fact that you're a coach now, but I'm curious, like what led to that understanding of your own physiology that, Hey, the short track stuff, wasn't going to do it for you. And even as a young man, you should transition to longer form racing. [00:05:32] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I was I got my degree in exercise science and it was, you know, sometimes people ask me when they're watching, after they've watched a bunch of my videos, like how. How'd you learn how to do all this research? I, part of it was, was through my degree. We learned how to research certain topics. But yeah, I, I don't know if, I don't know if I learned that my physiology didn't match shorter distance. Because of what I was learning in college, it was more so just trial and error. Like I, I just found that the longer the race was the better I did relative to my peers. And I think that still holds true to this day. You know, there, there, there are people that completely smashed me in a short track race. And then if we go do a hundred mile mountain bike race, it's the complete opposite. It wasn't necessarily an understanding of physiology, but more so trial and error, I would say [00:06:32] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Gotcha. So with this endurance mountain bike racing, what year? Just to give the listener a little bit of a timestamp, what year did you start to see gravel starts to take off and start thinking about it to some degree, whether you pursued it or. [00:06:47] Dylan Johnson: so 2018 was the year that I did my first gravel race. And I know that gravel was already. Coming up at that point. The first gravel race that I did was the CRO 10 buck 50, which is 150 mile gravel race on the coast of North Carolina, very flat. And then the second gravel race I ever did was at the time called dirty Kanza and now was Unbound as everyone knows. So yeah, that was my second gravel race ever, but I had a, I had a ton of experience doing endurance. Mountain bike racing. And I, you know, gravel racing is very similar. It's just a little bit less technical and a little bit more tactics. So it's not like I didn't have experience with that kind of race [00:07:29] Craig Dalton: When you went to Unbound back in 2018, obviously if you were focusing on a hundred mile mountain bike race, How was that leap up to 200 miles. And do you, in retrospect, feel like you weren't prepared for it? [00:07:43] Dylan Johnson: yeah. I was not prepared for it. I don't think. I, well, I don't want to, I was about to say, I don't think anyone is prepared for their first time, but then again, Ian Boswell literally won the thing his first time doing it this past year. So I don't know about that, but a lot of, a lot of even, even at the pro level, I've seen a lot of racers do it their first time and they had absolutely no idea what they were getting themselves into. And I a hundred percent fall in that boat as well. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I think the biggest thing is. Longer in duration than what I was used to a hundred mile mountain bike races for me usually take anywhere from the six hour range to the eight hour range, depending on how demanding the courses and Unbound is I've never gotten in the I've done it twice. And I think this year was in the 11 hour range and I forget what it was in 2018. It's quite a few more hours out there than, than a hundred mile mountain biking. And I think the other thing too, is that it's, it's so exposed all day. There's no shade. You really got to contend with heat. There's, there's, you know, either two or three aid stations on the course, depending on what they decide to do. So you've got to carry a lot of stuff with you. It's a lot of planning. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff I wasn't prepared for. I made a whole video about that experience. And I don't know, it was, it was quite an experience that first time. [00:09:13] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I think regardless of how much research you do, it's going to be a surprise, which your body starts to do after 10, 12 hours, because it's impossible to get everything, right. Yeah. Particularly I [00:09:26] Dylan Johnson: done the race? [00:09:27] Craig Dalton: I haven't done, I haven't done a Unbound to. [00:09:31] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. [00:09:31] Craig Dalton: But I think I've done, you know, I've done these ultra endurance style races and you just, you just don't know where you're going to stack up until that day. And even you can't compare one day to the other, right? Your nutrition, the temperature out there, your hydration, other riders, whether you're chasing wheels or not, these all come into play at some point during those days. [00:09:52] Dylan Johnson: definitely. Definitely. Yeah. And The, the other thing I'll add in with Unbound, particularly, it's a problem with a lot of gravel races, but particularly Unbound is, is mechanicals. It seems like in flat tires, It seemed like half the pros that were out there this year. Probably half the field in general, not just pros dealt with some sort of flat tire issue. [00:10:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I feel like we've talked about it on the podcast on a number of occasions. Like you've gotta be prepared for that both mentally, physically, and technically. So if you get a flat, just get off your bike and change it and keep going, because you may be depressed that you've lost the group you were in, but chances are, some of those are gonna guys are gonna in. Girls are going to have those same issues and you may find your same self back in that group. As long as you're mentally prepared to continue fighting throughout this. [00:10:38] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, Lawrence 10 damn got second place. I mean, he was in the sprint finish for the wind, got a early flat tire. Had to plug it. I believe Collins Strickland had a flat, had to plug it got fifth place, construct Strickland. When he won, got a flat tire late in the race had to plug it. Any, those were not, those were not the only two riders in the top 10 that got flats. So it's. It is not a race where a flat tire is a race ending mechanical by any means. [00:11:06] Craig Dalton: So that's 2018. You do your first Unbound kind of first season doing a couple of gravel races. Did you feel the draw at that point, or were you still kind of sticking to the endurance MTV scene for the primary focus of your efforts during the year? [00:11:21] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I, I really enjoyed gravel racing when I tried it and it was. Probably a slow transition. I would say I started doing more and more in gravel races and less and less mountain bike races. 2020 was supposed to be the first year that I was going to be all in on gravel. And of course you know, there was hardly any racing in 2020 there was a little. [00:11:44] Craig Dalton: happened as it did. [00:11:46] Dylan Johnson: Right. There was a little bit, there was a little bit of racing in the fall, but, but I would say for the most part, that was a non season. [00:11:53] Craig Dalton: That's when you first came on my radar, because I was sort of on the sidelines as a fan of the sport and podcaster looking at 2020 as this potentially breakout year where there's been enough noise about gravel the last few years that anybody with any cycling shops off-road is going to start racing gravel. And we saw a lot of women come into the field and a lot of men. And I remember seeing your performance, I think, at the sugarcane. W w what became the sugar can one 50 and thinking to myself, oh, there's another name to watch who I haven't been aware of before. [00:12:28] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. That sugar cane race. I, that was I, that was so early in 2020 that I don't even think I knew what COVID was at that point. It was, it was in January. So, but it was, it was a good thing that I got that race in before everything shut down. Cause, cause that one obviously went well and, and I think, you know, I had already planned to kind of transition to gravel, but that. You know, it, it made me think, all right, well, this is something that I'm good at. I should, I should pursue. [00:13:03] Craig Dalton: I'm curious, just from a sponsor perspective, as you're sort of managing yourself as a professional athlete and bringing together sponsors to support your efforts. Was that a difficult transition from people you were working with? Did you wholesale have to get new sponsors who were willing to support you in gravel or was it a more natural? Yes. And kind of conversation with them. [00:13:25] Dylan Johnson: It was, it was natural. The bike sponsor that I was, that I had was nine or bikes. I was working with them. for five years. They make both mountain bikes and gravel bikes. They want to sell both mountain bikes and gravel bikes. The fact that I was raising gravel, I mean, they were, they were supportive of that. The other sponsors that I have, I mean, it's not, you know, I can't even think of another sponsor that necessarily made only mountain bikes specifically. The equipment. And now I, now I to find a new version of that. So for the most part, I kept all my sponsors and they, they were happy about it because it seemed like gravel was getting more attention in. [00:14:05] Craig Dalton: Let's talk a little bit about your 20, 21 season then, cause you've certainly put in effort in terms of a number of big races and series. Do you want to just kind of give me some highlights throughout the year? I know you had some great success at BWR and he revisited your, your Unbound experience. We'll talk about a few of those events. [00:14:25] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I think the first big one was gravel Locos, which was the first, this was the 20, 20 or 2021 was the first year that they held it. But they they managed to get a lot of big names there. Warren's 10 dam Pete stet, not Collins, Strickland, Ted king. They were all there. That was my first big gravel race of 2021. And I ended up getting fourth place in that, which I was very happy with. It was a brutal race, 150 miles. And it, the last two hours of the race were pouring rain. So I was very pleased with that Unbound. I felt like I came in very well prepared physically. Although I think. The tricky thing was Unbound is that heat acclimation is so important for that race. And it's early enough in the year that for most people where most people live in the country, they haven't fully heat acclimated at that point. Like it's the first weekend of June. It's not like they've been riding their bike all summer in the heat. And I felt like I could have done a little bit better with heat acclimation, but it just, it really just, wasn't hot enough here in Bravard North Carolina. For the month leading into that race, I did feel like the heat got to me, but by far, my biggest issue that I had with that race was the same issue that so many people had, which was a ton of flat tires. And I never had, I never had to put a tube in, but I, I went through a lot of plugs. I went through a lot of CO2. I even had to at the second aid station, I, I could have grabbed my spare wheel and I totally should have, but 10 minutes after, after leaving that aid station, the tire went completely flat immediately, and I didn't have plugs or CO2 is left. So I just turned around, went back to the aid station, got the spare wheel and was on my way. I w I was still happy with that performance. I got 12th place there, despite all the issues, but you know, like I said, that's a race. You part of the race is dealing with issues, whether it's flat tires or dehydration or bonking everyone's going to have issues. And then the BWR series went really well, too. I ended up finishing third place overall in the VWR series, which shows really how. [00:16:38] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's a huge accomplishment. When you think back across these races that you've participated in on the gravel side, have you started to hone in on the types of courses that suits your technical skills and physiology better than others? [00:16:54] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I usually the longer the race, the better it can get a little extreme with races, like Unbound. That's a V that's a very, very long race. And I think a lot of people, even if they. Physiology has set up for longer races are gonna struggle. So yeah, usually, usually the longer the race, the better, and I'm, I'm very happy that gravel embraced long distance gravel could have easily turned into, you know, 30 mile short races. And that, that could have been what most people see as a gravel race, but it seems like every single big gravel races is a hundred, 150 200 which is. I'm, I'm a kind of a middle weight writer. I bounced between 150 and 155 pounds. So I'm not a pure climber and I'm not, not a massive guy. What I do find is that if a course has a ton of super steep climbing, then the outright climbers like Pete Stettner or, or someone like that they're just going to walk away with. At least from me, they're going to walk away from me on a, on a super steep climb. So I actually, I actually don't mind a fairly flat to rolling course because I, I find that I can at least stay with the front group for a longer period of time and maybe make some, some of the right moves at the end. I think my chances are better. [00:18:19] Craig Dalton: Do you find that any of these courses are having technical enough sections that make your mountain bike background and asset? [00:18:28] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. the BWR races have really embraced that most of the BWR races have some sort of single track. The BWR Utah race has a very long section of fair, relatively technical single track. I say relatively because we're talking about gravel racing here. If you're on a mountain bike, I don't think it'd be a huge deal, but when you're 110 miles into a gravel race and you've got 30 minutes of fairly bumpy, single track, that's, that's pretty significant. I think, I think that played into my strengths a lot. And, and the other BWR races have similar features like that. Some, some gravel races are just straight up gravel for the whole thing, you know, like Unbound and there was no single track. So you really get a mix. I think if there are, if there are technical spots that suits me, if there aren't technical spots, I don't really, I don't really sweat it. It just means that things are going to be a little bit more tactical, probably. [00:19:21] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I don't think we've mentioned it yet on air is that you've got a YouTube channel, which both covers your profession as a coach, as well as doing some race analysis from the races you've done. And for the listener, I'd very much recommend finding Dylan's YouTube channel and I'll put it in the show notes because he does a great job of showing behind the scenes. And it's not so much as, you know, as a listener, like I don't geek out as to who's winning the race necessarily, but I do think Dylan does an excellent job of telling stories that can translate to everybody in the race. And specifically, as I mentioned to you offline Dylan, I really like that you have a strong understanding of. How the course is going to play out how, what abilities you have and where to burn matches. And I forgot which one I was watching recently, where, you know, you had laid out the course profile and you had the, the undulating Hills throughout the race mapped out very specifically. And you're able to articulate where you thought you could be successful and where you thought you were going to have channel. So I thought it'd be great and people will go watch these videos after the fact. But maybe if you could just talk through a little bit, how you think about when you look at a course profile and then you're out there in, let's say it's the top 30 of people that are out there until that breaks down further. How are you thinking about tackling Hills or technical sections where you're going to have to exert more than the average amount of effort? [00:20:51] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I mean, so usually the w the way. That gravel races play out. Is that the front group? I mean, every once in a while, somebody would try a long distance breakaway and it's successful. That's what happened at VWR, California. I really was semi-successful I guess the only, the only person that caught the. The people that went for it was pizza And he ended up winning, but, but usually what ends up happening at long distance gravel races is that the front group just gets smaller and smaller and smaller as the race progresses until it's a very elite group of riders and they either have to attack each other in the last couple of miles, or it might come down to a spring finish or a final climb or something like that. So, I mean, if you're, if you're strong enough to make that selection, the last. You know, the last quarter of the race is very important. It's the most important part of the race. So you got to look at what, what the last, you know, what the last quarter of the race has. I mean, sometimes there's a big climb. Sometimes there's a single track section. I made a video about DWR, Utah, not from this year, but from from the previous year 2020. And it has both, it's got a massive climb and then it's got a single track section that, that definitely played into the race tactics there. And then you kind of have to, you kind of have to get a feel for what your competition's strengths are as well. Like, you know, I know that if I'm, if I'm riding with Pete stead and I he's, he's a great climber. I know that if I don't know Keegan Swinson's in the group, he's an amazing. Technical writer and an amazing climber. If it's, if it's Ian Boswell, same thing, amazing climber, just all around strong. The thing about Ian Boswell and I did talk about this in my BWR North Carolina video is probably one of his weaknesses is his technical ability. And we both, I would say me, Russell Fenster Wald and Carrie Warner were trying to. Exploit that at that race. So anytime there was a technical gravel dissent, we were really trying to pin it in order to put some distance between us and an Ian. Unfortunately we didn't, you know, we didn't succeed in doing that. He managed to catch us back every single time. But that's, that's kinda the thought process when you're, when you're in one of these races. And then of course there's the whole component of, of when do I go hard? You know, when do I save my matches when you. You know, when, when can I pin it? I think a lot of times, you know, if, if you're trying to put the group under pressure, it's gotta be in a section where they are not getting a significant amount of drafts. So either, either fairly steep climber or some sort of technical section, because otherwise you're just kind of giving them a free. [00:23:39] Craig Dalton: And when you're at the crux of these races, are you willing to put yourself in a position? blow up entirely, but you know that this is your move. Like this is the moment. If you're going to win this race, this is the moment you have to go. [00:23:54] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. [00:23:56] Craig Dalton: And, and let me, let me explain. I, I asked that because, you know, as a, as a mid-pack racer, like I'm mostly concerned about getting across the finish line. And I know there's not a tremendous amount of value in me blowing myself up to stay on a wheel because I've got to be concerned with this overall task of me crossing the finish line. But as a professional athlete, I do imagine the calculation is slightly different. [00:24:21] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. So generally generally what happens is, well, I was, I was talking about how the front group gets smaller and smaller throughout the race, but also what, what will generally happen is that the pace at the beginning of the race will be much harder than the pace throughout the rest of the race. I mean, I don't know. It's just the nature of racing. So. You know, maybe, maybe some mid Packers don't know that it's, we actually don't keep that pace up for the entire race. We, we do slow down halfway through once, you know, once a significant amount of people have dropped off. If you, you, you kind of have to make these internal calculations, like is staying with. You know, if you're with a group and you see that your heart rate is at, you know, you're at your threshold heart rate, but it's a seven hour race. So clearly that's not sustainable. Is it worth it to stay with this group and hope that they're going to slow down? Or maybe you need to make the calculation that this is too hard to pace and I need I need to go back to the next group on the road, or I need to draw. And it's kind of, you know, it's kind of something that you learn with experience. Most people when they're doing their first race are going to go too hard at the beginning. In fact, even experienced racers, do that. I would say it's the number one racing mistake in endurance racing in general, let's take gravel racing out of it. Just endurance racing period. Go into hard at the beginning is, is probably the number one mistake. Yeah, you're making all these, all these calculations in your head looking at your heart rate, looking at your power thinking, Okay. You know, is, is this sustainable? Is it not sustainable? Is that, you know, are people around me getting tired? Is the group gonna slow down? Are they not going to slow down? And sometimes you get it right? And sometimes you. [00:26:06] Craig Dalton: That makes sense. Before we get into your 2022 plans, I just want to do a quick detour towards your equipment. Can you talk about the bike you're running the tire size. You prefer aerobars, no arrow bars. Let's get a couple of details on the table. [00:26:20] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, well, I don't know when this episode's going to air, but as of right now, I cannot talk about the bike that I'm going to be riding running in 2022. Hopefully I'll, I'll be able to let people know soon. But the, the bike that I was running last year was the Niner RLT nine RDO. I run as far as tires go, I run, I usually run wider than whatever the race promoter recommends or whatever. Probably the average racer there is on. [00:26:50] Craig Dalton: And why do you do that? [00:26:52] Dylan Johnson: Well, I mean, they, so. We're coming to more and more of an understanding that that wider tires are not necessarily slower. And in fact, on rough terrain, they're usually, they're usually faster. Of course it depends on how rough the terrain is. But for example, at, at Unbound, I was running 45 millimeter tires. I think most people are running 40 twos or fours. That's pretty standard for me to be a size up from whatever everybody else is running. I like I did. [00:27:22] Craig Dalton: like I, I feel like I need to yell amen or something. Cause I'm all with you on this Dylan. [00:27:28] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the at the BWR California race I never done that race until, until this past. And everybody's talking about how they're running thirties or 30 twos. Like, it seems like, you know, everybody's running their road bike. And I was like, all I had was my gravel bike and I was like 30 twos. You know, that, that is so narrow. I'm going to go with 36 is I didn't even know the course, but I was like, I'll go 36 is I next year. I'll probably run for. I, that is not to me, to me that there was, there was straight up single-track in that race. Like the single track sections of that course, the fastest bike would have been a hardtail mountain bike and people are on their road bikes. Granted there's a ton of road in that race, but I don't know. I think a 30 mil tire on a road bike is not, I just get the feeling it's not the fastest. And there were a bunch of parts on that course where even a 36. I I felt sketchy on. So yeah, I'm, I'm always, I'm always going with the bigger tire for the most part. [00:28:36] Craig Dalton: That's interesting because certainly BWR San Diego is the one event that people will, will raise their hand and say, oh, you got to go. Road bike style tires, pretty darn narrow, [00:28:46] Dylan Johnson: I don't know. I don't know if you've ever written that course. Have you. [00:28:50] Craig Dalton: I haven't, but I've seen enough details and I've got a crew down in San Diego that has told me about it. So yeah, I'm with you, you know, it's, it's curious, like at the point he ended the race though, like that you didn't necessarily feel under equipped on the road sections per se, riding 36 mill tires. [00:29:07] Dylan Johnson: well, most of the time rode sections in a gravel race. I can see that people are worried if they see, you know, that it's going to be 60% road and 40% gravel, it's like that's more road than gravel. You know, I need a, I need to prepare for that, but usually it's, it's the, the gravel sections are the deciding factor, at least at the pointy end of the race. So, you know, if, if it was a time trial, like you're just, you know, solo for the whole thing, maybe you'd choose, choose a bike. That's more optimal. For what's what you're going to be spending more time on. But a lot of times you got to choose the bike set up. That's going to be optimal for the critical points of the race. [00:29:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And I think that often translates to the mid pack is you also have to worry about your own personal comfort across these events. So having a little bit of extra cushion, I think over a long day in the saddle is super warranted. [00:30:03] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. definitely. There's you know, Renee, hers has done some interesting work the tire company. I mean, granted, they're trying to sell tires, so, and I, I'm not sponsored by Renee hers, but I just find the work that they've done. Super interesting. I think they, they make the claim and they've got, they've got data to back this up that all the way from a it's either a 25 millimeter or 28 millimeter road tire all the way up to a 50 millimeter. Road tires, no slower in terms of rolling resistance. I mean, it's probably more aerodynamic drag to have a 50 millimeter tire, but they're claiming that the rolling resistance between the two is not different. So I, I almost, I own, you know, is that true? Is that not true? I don't know. I've done a little bit of tire testing myself and it it's very hard to do. Did to do tire testing. What I do is I'll find a section of gravel and I'll write it at the exact same power and then I'll switch wheels and right at the same power and try to see if, see if there's any differences, but, but usually the testing protocol isn't, you know, isn't tight enough that the, the margins are, you know, you're kind of trying to find a needle in a haystack cause it's small margins, but. When claims like that are being thrown around. I'm like, why not go bigger? You know, why not go bigger? [00:31:25] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'll re I'll refer the listener back to my episode with from Renee. And w he, he talks a little bit about that study and I'm with you. It's been fascinating. And I guess I've always been on the big tire side of things, so maybe it's preaching to the choir, but I'm a believer. And from a confidence perspective for me, it's like night and day when I go down to like 38 C tire and I ride what I normally ride a hundred percent. I miss my, my 43 or 45. [00:31:55] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. What are you, what are you normally on? [00:31:57] Craig Dalton: I'm normally on six 50 V by 47, [00:32:00] Dylan Johnson: Okay. [00:32:01] Craig Dalton: because I live in a particularly kind of mountain biking part of the country and Marin county. So my daily rides are definitely more on that side of things than any kind of rolling gravel. [00:32:12] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. And what, what tire specifically do you use? [00:32:16] Craig Dalton: I use that. Panorai ser gravel king. [00:32:18] Dylan Johnson: Okay. Yeah. that, that looks like a good one. I've not, I've not tried that one, but I'm. I may a subscriber to bicycle rolling resistance.com. I love that site. I looked so much at that site and it's, it's not intuitive. People think that they can just look at a tire. and assume they know how fast it is just by how much tread it. Some of the slowest tires are, are dead slick. [00:32:44] Craig Dalton: So fascinating. I'm not familiar with that site, so I'll have to check it out. [00:32:48] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. [00:32:49] Craig Dalton: So going into your 2022 season, now, you're going to be on a new bike. You've got a new program. What do you have in store on your calendar this year? [00:32:57] Dylan Johnson: Well, I, I haven't been selected for the lifetime grand Prix. So that that's going to be, that's going to be my big goal. I love the fact that it's it's, it's got gravel races and mountain bike races. I mean, I come from mountain bike racing, so I think that's going to suit me you know, looking at the list of writers. There's so many fast writers on the list. It's a little bit intimidating, but I'll, I'll do the best that I can. I think I'll probably also try to go for the BWR series again. They're going to do a quadruple crown this year instead of a triple crown. So [00:33:29] Craig Dalton: And does that work on the calendar that you could, could do both of those series? [00:33:33] Dylan Johnson: it does, it does. Yeah. [00:33:34] Craig Dalton: Amazing. It's going to make you a busy man. [00:33:37] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, it will be a busy season. So there's those, those two series already. And then, you know, and then there's other racing here and there I'll probably be back to gravel Locos. I'll be doing the local Southeast gravel series here. I'll I'll do some, some mountain bike racing here and there as well. So it will be a busy. [00:33:57] Craig Dalton: Great. When you looked at that lifetime grand Prairie as an opportunity with your mountain bike background, it must've made you smile. That it wasn't a pure gravel series. [00:34:07] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that when you look at that series, all the races on that calendar they, they all look different. I mean, there's, there's a 40 mile mountain bike race, and there's a 200 mile gravel race. I think that's the point. I think the point is that. So winter of that series needs to be a well-rounded athlete or well-rounded off-road cyclists for that matter. And I, I think it'll be very interesting. I do think that there's going to be a lot of luck involved because at least two of the races on that, on that series flat tires are, are a real possibility. And, and Some of those races, bonking is a real possibility. There's dealing with altitude at Leadville. I mean, there's all, there's all sorts of factors. So, you know, hopefully, hopefully the strongest rider wins, but I also think that the person that the, you know, that wins the series is going to need a lot of luck. [00:35:03] Craig Dalton: As you sort of do the calculations in your head as to how the points add up and that's your. Are you thinking about one race over another and thinking about, you know, this is where I'm going to try to peak maybe more so because it suits my capabilities and some other one, obviously you need to do to get the points, but you're not necessarily going to focus because you just don't believe that your athletic profile matches the possibility of success in that race. [00:35:28] Dylan Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. I talked about this in, in a recent video that I did about. 2022 training plan. This series is obviously my main goal, but it's six races over six months. And you know, any, any coach will tell you that trying to peak six times over the course of six months is, is you know, it's not going to happen. So I I'm gonna try and go for three peaks this year. And I picked, I picked the three longest races by duration. On the schedule. So that's, that's Unbound, Leadville and then the last one, big sugar and, and like I said, you know, longer races generally suit me better. So that's why I picked those three. And they're also spaced pretty evenly. There's there's a two month gap between each one which gives me enough time to do a little, a little rest period before I build up again. So, you know, and the, and the other thing too, is I have experienced doing Unbound. I don't have experience doing the other races, although I'm very experienced in a hundred mile mountain bike racing, which I hope will help me in Leadville. And then, and then the other races on the calendar, I'm going to do them, obviously I'll do all six. And I'll just, I'll just do as well as I can, but I won't necessarily be peaking peaking for those. [00:36:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I think this is going to be super interesting in retrospect, at the end of the year. And maybe we can have a conversation, hopefully I'll be at about a big sugar and just talk about how it went and across all the athletes in the field. I think people are going to have different strategies about what they can be successful, how and when they can be successful. So, you know, kudos to Lightspeed lifetime. Bringing together the capital to insent people enough to go after this race series. Cause I do think as a fan of the sport, it's going to be an exciting year in 2022. [00:37:18] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I think it would be very exciting. Very exciting. [00:37:22] Craig Dalton: Dylan, thank you so much for sharing your story on the podcast this week, as I said, I'll, I'll refer people to your YouTube channel and I encourage everybody to follow Dylan. He's a colorful rider. He's super insightful and an up and comer and someone we should be having eyes on in 2022. [00:37:37] Dylan Johnson: Yeah, I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on. [00:37:40] Craig Dalton: So that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Huge. Thanks to Dylan. For coming onboard the show. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. And I do encourage you to visit him over on YouTube. I think you'll get a kick out of it. If you're interested in providing any feedback, please hit me up over at the ridership. That's www dot the ridership. Dot com it's a free global cycling community. We've created to connect with other gravel, cyclists, and adventure athletes out there. Uh, encourage you to join the conversations, always vibrant, and there's a wealth of knowledge over there. So feel free to tap into that. If you're able to contribute to the podcast directly, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. I very much appreciate everybody. Who's stepped up to underwrite portions of this show. Until next time. Here's the finding some dirt onto your wheels
Back to June 2020. Laurens and Stevie continue their journey. And they are not alone. If you want to race Kanza you have to know your game. And if you want to win Kanza you have to know it all. And even though our boys claim to know it all, they don't know shit. And whom better to ask for help than a former winner of the race. Alison Tetrick knows her Kanza. She knows what to eat, she knows what to drink and she knows her equipment. And even more important she knows how to tell it. The only thing she doesn't know is where te he finish line is. Does it matter? You'll find out in the Live Slow Ride Fast podcast...Wasn't it Joop, that said: “The bike the bike, that all I like”. Well, not for us. We cover life on, and off the bike. This is Coastin' - the live slow ride fast podcast We continue a series of podcasts in which we dive into the world of gravel. Into the minds of its star racers, race organisers and other subject matter expertsSo the search continues: What is it, when people talk about the spirit of gravel? How do gravel races differ from road events? How's the US gravel culture compared to Europe's gravel scene? What's with the gear, what's hot and whats not? So join us for another episode of Coastin' - powered by Shimano GRX and Specialized
This week we sit down with former Pro Tour rider and current Ribble Cycles Head of Product, Jamie Burrow. Jamie walks us through the range of Ribble Gravel Bikes across three frame materials and highlight the companies' unique custom bike builder. Ribble Gravel Range Ribble Instagram Support the podcast Join The Ridership Automated transcription (please excuse any errors) [00:00:00]Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. [00:00:08]This week on the podcast, we have Jamie Burrow. He's a former pro tour rider on the road and current head of product for the UK brand Ribble cycles. [00:00:19]As you'll learn from Jamie, Ribble offers a full suite of gravel bikes across a range of materials. [00:00:25]And also offers a direct to consumer model via their website with a unique bike configurator tool that allows you to customize every element of your gravel bike. So if you're looking for those wide bars or 650 wheels, Or a little different saddle or set up, you can go through and individually customize every part and piece of the bike. [00:00:46]Making it uniquely yours. Including a custom paint job, which I just learned about during the podcast. Which i think is a fabulous opportunity for anybody looking to ride something unique. [00:00:56]Before we jump in, I just wanted to send a huge thank you to those of you who have elected to become members of the podcast. Via buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride your monthly support to my efforts at the podcast are hugely appreciated [00:01:11]And I wouldn't keep doing what I'm doing without your support. With all that said let's dive right in to my interview with Jamie. Jamie. Welcome to the show. I appreciate you joining us all the way from the UK. You're welcome. I know we could easily do an hour on your backstory as a cyclist back in the pro tour, but [00:01:30] for the purpose of this conversation, why don't you just tell us what led you to your current role at Ribble? [00:01:35]Jamie Burrow: [00:01:35] I suppose it's just taking a different path to most people who, you know, X, Y, Z, as you go down the kind of sports director, team management role. I come from a cycling family and grew up around bikes, really. Dad told me to build bikes when I was probably about five years old, I think. [00:01:50] And the early days my dad was a designer himself by trade. And it just passionate the bikes as a kid. I started designing my own bikes as a teenager, honestly, back in the days when everything was made by steel I was designing my race bikes that sort of 15, 16, and had a local frame builder would build them for me. [00:02:08]And then you go into the whole race career thing. And even as it has it sides where obviously all your equipment is given to you, you don't have choice on things. Sometimes on the best equipment, sometimes it's not the best and, seeing the sides of things and then get out, it would be so much better if you could have this or who could have done this way. [00:02:26] So suddenly finding yourself, coming out the other side of a career where you're effectively right in the kit for seven, eight hours a day in all conditions, you know what you want, what's good. And, what's missing. So then suddenly be, behind the steering wheel of, being out of an input in those things. [00:02:42] That's a pretty cool. [00:02:44] Craig Dalton: [00:02:44] Yeah. It's gotta be pretty amazing to take your vision for what a bicycle should be and deliver it to the world. [00:02:50]Jamie Burrow: [00:02:50] That's right. Yeah. Honestly, my main background was obviously road riding and obviously there's so many different forms, disciplines of of cycling, but It does [00:03:00] help when, when you've ridden bikes in every situation at higher level to know what they need, for OEM performance wise, aerodynamics everything map, you just, if are those kinds of get to know things, is it that you get to know on the road? [00:03:15]Craig Dalton: [00:03:15] Can you, I was really tickled to learn about Ribble as such a storied UK brand that I hadn't really heard of. I suppose I'd seen it in some races. But it really didn't connect the dots until after I got introduced to it. Can you tell the listener a little bit about Ribble's history as a brand? [00:03:33]Jamie Burrow: [00:03:33] Yeah, so it's actually a very old brand. [00:03:36] It was originated in 1897. So it's a pretty old comes from the Northwest of England. The Ribble name comes from the river in the river valley. It was a family business for generations. Changed hands a few times. As we went into the 20th century I even from my own point of view, growing up, I would say coming from a cycling family where and obviously way before online sales in cycling weekly magazine in the UK where the back pages were always full of adverts rebel was always the big. [00:04:06] Out of the taken up the last two back pages of the magazine, and it was one of the premium brands of the UK. Foods, seventies, eighties, nineties, they would sponsor some of the biggest elite teams in the UK of a national team sponsor. They were the official Barcelona Olympics supplier guys, like Boardman rode them for years previous to it before going to approach or career. [00:04:30] [00:04:30] Wiggins, even Geraint Thomas, they're all guys that have written on Ribble over the years and, because they were one of the, one of the big brands. And you come back in that era [00:04:40]Craig Dalton: [00:04:40] and then it sounded like in talking to you offline, the brand took a little dip as bicycle companies started to move from steel to carbon and other materials. [00:04:49] And then it seems like over the last, five, six years has had a really big resurgence in the UK. Can you talk us through what was going on there? [00:04:57] Jamie Burrow: [00:04:57] Yeah, man. I think that not just rebel, I think it was actually quite a fast change from steel and then a brief period into titanium. A minium, at least as far as a vote were concerned. [00:05:09] And then into carbon, obviously when carbon come along as a material, took away the ability for small builders, as the UK was falling small frame builders, as well as a lot of the bigger brands like Ribble And as soon as you go to the gun of those different forms of production, and obviously everything went over to Asia, I was, did the bigger brands managed to want, I suppose they directed it from the beginning and it made it harder for the smaller brands to be able to keep paces, things a lot more expensive, especially when you look back at the beginning of of. [00:05:41] The carbon industry mounted costs, everything production costs were so much more expensive than they are now. And I think a lot of brands did get lost through the nineties early two thousands, but now things are a lot more accessible to everyone and, it's been our job to bring Ribble back on [00:05:57] Craig Dalton: [00:05:57] the map and now Ribble building out of all sorts [00:06:00] of materials. [00:06:00] Right? [00:06:01] Jamie Burrow: [00:06:01] Yeah. That's great. That is one of our kind of. Key USBs is the fact that we offer so many materials across. So the same genre of bikes. [00:06:11] Craig Dalton: [00:06:11] Yeah. And I want to dig into the gravel series because that is clearly represented with the aluminum carbon titanium. I did want to point out that rebel has an exceptional web property. [00:06:23] At this point, it was really enjoyable going through the bike configurator and in talking to one of your colleagues, just learning about. The sheer amount of customization that is available and the amount of holding that the team provides for an e-commerce experience, I think is really exciting and notable in the industry. [00:06:42] Do you want to talk about that direct to consumer model and how you make the consumer feel like they're in the showroom with the employees, even throughout the pandemic? [00:06:51]Jamie Burrow: [00:06:51] Yeah. And the whole key kind of USP for the business is our bike builder function, which allows you to effectively, you can have a choose a bike from one of our pre-spec's. [00:07:02] And I've obviously been put together from our knowledge, but then obviously that's the way that most of the bike brands do outside of that, the bike builder gives you the options to customize effectively everything. Whether you want to start from a frame platform or a group set. And to manage everything. [00:07:18]The choice of handlebars from materials to size is handlebars, stems. seatposts, settles tires, 700 c, 650b wheel sizes, especially on the, on a gravel bike. It [00:07:30] flared bars, standard bars, crank lengths, all of these things we offer as well as for good part of it, year and a half, two years now, we've been offering custom color. [00:07:39]And all of this is done in house. So every single bike is from the moment of order. It's one bike, it's one mechanic. So the whole process for obviously to do go, directly onliner you said from we've got our go install platform, which is, a virtual instill experience, which is proven really successful in a lot of people go on there. [00:07:59] Maybe initially with an idea of one product and actually walk away with another product because they didn't have a full understanding of what they really needed. Yeah. Or just someone who didn't have an understanding and needed that expertise to, to find that buyer. And obviously starting from the kind of right, and the person wants to do budget, obviously, and the facts, the way the bike builder works, you couldn't completely customize that bite to the rider. [00:08:25]You're not. Is there a lot of kind of bike shops would do in the past. You all, can you set it in the bottom of something, the shop floor, and it's the salesman basically sell it, trying to sell that, buy it to the customer because he's got it in stock, regardless of whether it's the right size or the actual product the customer is after. [00:08:43] Whereas obviously we can offer you exactly what you need. [00:08:47] Craig Dalton: [00:08:47] Yeah. I think that's particularly interesting and germane to the gravel market simply because the consumers have to go through so much thought process of. What is my terrain look like, what do I want to do? What are my intentions? [00:09:00] And these gravel bikes are so configurable and their personalities can be so different based on tire wheel, size bar, with all these things that you give them the option to. [00:09:10] So to me, when I looked at the Ribble site, I said, this is almost an accelerant for the consumer to have all the conversations they should be having with themselves about what they want to do with this bike. So they make sure they get it. As they need it right when it comes off the factory floor. [00:09:26] Jamie Burrow: [00:09:26] That's right. Yeah. And I think gravels is the unusual, one of, all of the the different sort of sectors that we sell bikes in, because it's new to the point where I don't think, across the industry, hasn't become a stable platform of what is a gravel bike and what is gravel, geometry. And a lot of it does come down to the end use of it, obviously. [00:09:47]Gravel, we're still talking about gravel. When we look at mountain bikes, when you look at trails and Euro downhill cross country, we look at them as individual categories. We don't just say mountain bike anymore. Whereas gravel, we're still just saying gravel. Even when you look into the events that are currently on offer globally A lot of them. [00:10:05]A lot of it as the whole pandemic is stopped. Obviously mass participation events, nothing compared to the side of gravel probably would have taken a massive step forward. Last year. I know the UCI, I'm talking about you jumping on the bandwagon, tend to the world championships and all sorts of competitive racing. [00:10:24]But for the moment, outside of, over there, you've got Things like that. It cans over here. We've got the day of [00:10:30] either kind of more, a lot of guys have taken it more backpack in adventure rather than the race side of things. And obviously you've got such a difference between fully loaded in a bike to take on a long adventure than racing effectively. [00:10:48] Off-road and it's still. No, I think as the events unfold and people get more into it, we'll see the more, it develop more. From our side as a brand, and we started with our CGR model, which is cross gravel road and I suppose initially thinking it was the fact that gravel in the UK was slightly slower than it was in in the states to actually get moving. [00:11:14] And we can see that. And it's one useful thing with our bike builder tool, because you're not, you haven't got pre specked, a catalog bike, it's you get to see through the bite load of what the end consumers actually using the bike for. And then the year one this is quite a UK thing, but as a commuter that you could tell that most people buying the bike we're buying as commuter or running vendors we're rack. [00:11:39] What a kind of heavy duty road tires, lights. So it was more of a ride to work bike rather than a gravel bike. As the gravel scene took off, you saw they've gone into bike and go to button the same frame platforms, but then switch into one by systems. Gravel tires, fled bars, start to [00:12:00] come in all these kinds of things that I've picked up in the gravel trends. [00:12:04]And, it's been good to see the development and how the end consumers have taken sight of that. The other thing on our side, and it's what led us to move on to having a grubbing specific range on top of the CGR was the fact that the CGR was born as effectively relaxed road geometry with bigger clearances. [00:12:26]And then we've taken the we've taken a. Hint more from, mountain biking, hardtail mountain bike in. So the new gravel range, we've got to have a slightly longer and lower geometry. So a bit more stable off road, where if you want to a full on gravel bike, you can take it out there. More kind of gnarly road trails rather than just. [00:12:46]Craig Dalton: [00:12:46] Yeah, I thought [00:12:47] it was really interesting as someone who's been involved in the sport intimately, the last three years, you've got an article on the website about the CGR geometry versus the gravel geometry, and just seeing the frame superimposed on one another was really interesting because I think it is indicative of that. [00:13:05] Trend in gravel, as you said, to make these, to take them out and bike influence and make these bikes hugely capable while still balancing the ability to ride them on the road and enjoy them. Obviously it's not a pro tour level road bike anymore. You've made compromises, but at the same token, for most riders, it can be extremely enjoyable as their quote unquote road bike and massively capable as their gravel [00:13:30] bike, their bike, packing bike, et cetera. [00:13:32]Jamie Burrow: [00:13:32] Yeah, so I don't have nothing. It's just been interesting to think. A lot of people in the beginning it was, I can buy one buyer that does it all. And then I think we saw on the other end of the scale, people that may be at a real high-end road by the high end mountain bike and wanted the second bike. And it was a plus one. [00:13:51] And, maybe he did go in for a more cheaper than she'd ever bought it because it was a plus one. And now we're seeing again, it's developed so fast. But now people are buying high roadway and a high-end gravel bike, rather than it just being the plus one to just give it a go. [00:14:08] Craig Dalton: [00:14:08] Yeah. And particularly as people focus more and more on the racing side of things, they're going to be willing to make compromises about comfort, to go for speed and performance. [00:14:18] And I think I always want to hazard our listeners to say get the bike that's right for you. It's no use. Chasing that pro athlete who can replace his equipment and get new wheels, et cetera, and just really wants to go super fast versus the bike that you need in your garage to get, to make you your rides as much fun as possible. [00:14:38]Jamie Burrow: [00:14:38] Yeah, that's right. That's one thing. One key thing. I think we're one of the few brands still offer all the different platforms across different frame materials. And often you'll find that. I switched frame material. You'll end up with a complete different bike and link different geometry with a different purpose. [00:14:54] Whereas we're we don't want to compromise the end consumer, the consumers, [00:15:00] like kind of end goal of where they want to ride the bike in the material. If you want that style bike, then got the choice of material, whether it's a choice, but there's a budget wherever it's a choice because of, it's just a choice from the heart kind of steel to titanium because you like. [00:15:14] a more kind of classic material, always performance based, you can choose either of those frame materials and you're not hindered by a different geometry or something [00:15:24] like that. [00:15:24] Craig Dalton: [00:15:24] That's a perfect segue into my next question, which is going specifically into the gravel range and talking about, as you just alluded to rebel offers an aluminum model, a carbon model, and a titanium model. [00:15:38] Can you talk through, if you were talking to a customer, how they should think about those different frame materials and what the effect might be on performance and budget. [00:15:46]Obviously budget wise that element is always the starting point. And, I say a bit because you're on a budget or a lot of people, maybe it's the plus one as an entry into the gravel. [00:15:58]And again, a lot of it is depends on what your end usages. We say a lot of titaniums definitely back with the boom, with titanium sales across all models has grown dramatically over the last year and half, but obviously gravel and the CGR models. It's it's a material that really lends itself to it, for its durability. [00:16:18] It's got a perfect properties with, a bit of compliance for off-road riding carbon. Again, it's maybe firat from outside possibly one of the kind of slower responding the ones. But I [00:16:30] think because of it is probably seen as more of a race bike. It does have the attributes, outcome bike takes all of the attributes of our SLR road frame, which is that the front of our men's and women's use are proteins. [00:16:43]It's you know, it's at the same, is it the same two profiles? Carbon lapses are high end road bikes. It's got aerodynamic attributes to it. But obviously until things like mass participation events and natural gravel racing, take part maybe there isn't such a need for that kind of bike. [00:16:58] Whereas at the moment it is more a do it all bike. The aloe and the titanium are popular. [00:17:04]With it, I noticed aesthetically, one of the signature marks of the rebel design on the gravel is a drop stay. Is there a performance benefit to that design? [00:17:15]Jamie Burrow: [00:17:15] Yeah, not just to calm the gravels across the whole range, it's it is obviously there is the assessment side to it, but the compliance, it does offer a more comfortable ride. [00:17:26]Yeah, especially on the insurance products on the driver bikes and the CGR. [00:17:29] Craig Dalton: [00:17:29] And does that translate to the aluminum offering as well as their sort of tuning of the frame material that can allow? I know aluminum has the reputation of being incredibly stiff and harsh. Can you design in some of the, some subtleness to that rear end on the aluminum bike as well? [00:17:46] Jamie Burrow: [00:17:46] Yeah, you can from obviously the shape of the seat stays. And another thing that is very popular is. No, as you can do with that bite value is things like the carbon seatpost carbon safe bikes is one of the most popular upgrades yeah. [00:18:00] On the Aluminium bikes, because the job stay along with the compost. [00:18:03] It does give you a notable difference in flex and comfort. [00:18:07] Craig Dalton: [00:18:07] Yeah. I was always surprised by that. I had a hard tail mountain bike from I think BMC back in the day and they had a drop stay and had a carbon post and the suppleness is notable and it's not disconcerting. And I think certainly for the gravel side of things, you need to look at all these elements to get the suppleness that you're looking for in the bike. [00:18:30] Jamie Burrow: [00:18:30] That's what I mean. And I think one of the main, probably the biggest difference, the biggest, fastest growing trend across all bikes at the moment is tire size. In an age con you think how long we were on kind of 19 to 21, 23 mill tires for years and years. And then it went 25, 28, 32 on road bikes very quickly. [00:18:51]I don't think we long before. Maybe outside of racing, a 32 mil tire is pretty much the standard, even on the road, for comfort and using the tires as well as part of your compliance. I was still on the graphic bikes. You've definitely got that. [00:19:06] Craig Dalton: [00:19:06] Yeah, you're absolutely right. [00:19:08] As far as tire clearance goes on the gravel range, is there a difference between the CGR models and the gravel models in terms of tire clearance? [00:19:16] Jamie Burrow: [00:19:16] They're both 45 mil with guards with [00:19:19] Craig Dalton: [00:19:19] 700. Is that 700 C. [00:19:21] Jamie Burrow: [00:19:21] 700 C and a 47 by six 50. [00:19:25] Craig Dalton: [00:19:25] Okay, great. And, And do you see that for UK riding, is that sort of size [00:19:30] range pretty much covered the gamut of the type of terrain you'll get into in the UK? [00:19:34]Jamie Burrow: [00:19:34] It does in the UK? Definitely. Yeah. I know some brands are out 50 mil but I think for the UK 45 mil definitely covers it. [00:19:42]Craig Dalton: [00:19:42] Speaking about the UK market. I'm curious since we've had a few guests on from the UK, but I'm just curious about the UK gravel market. In general you mentioned a couple notable events. [00:19:53] What are some of the other ones that, that people outside the UK should have on their calendar of interest? [00:19:58]Jamie Burrow: [00:19:58] It is still very new over here. Seven going on right now is the Tuscany trail. So not in the UK, but obviously in Italy. And that's dubbed as being the biggest pot packing event in the world. [00:20:08]And sounds like a cool event. Some at the moment, we've got day reliever. I did that myself two years ago. Last year. Honestly, that's canceled it. I don't know, two years ago. And. That was a great event. And that really does show the popularity and the growing popularity. [00:20:22] Craig Dalton: [00:20:22] Is that a single day event? [00:20:23] Jamie Burrow: [00:20:23] The Dirty Reiver? Yeah. Similar events that there's a hundred Ks, the short one and 200, just to fall for distance. That's up in the north of England. And it's all on nice fire tracks. It's not too technical, but it's 200 K never crosses the same. Same track twice, obviously for the UK, that's pretty amazing to do 200 K in effectively one big loop. [00:20:45]And the kind of event that I think it, entry sold out within two or three days. So that kind of thing is obviously that's, what's going to be, I'm pretty sure that it's going to be the new, big thing. And as I think if we hadn't have had the everything locked down last year, we would have [00:21:00] seen already a massive increase in events. [00:21:02] Yeah, I [00:21:02] Craig Dalton: [00:21:02] think you're right that last year it was just EV all the trends were telling us that every event was going to be challenging to get into. And there were going to be some massive new ones on the calendar. So there is so much pent up demand. And as you've mentioned, as a lot of bikes got under people's bodies this past year in the pandemic, and they're just re waiting to take them out on some sort of event. [00:21:25] Jamie Burrow: [00:21:25] Sorry. Yeah, because one is even seeing where people are riding them, just fun, social writing. Cause we don't really, apart from, that area in the north of England, they say there's hundreds of kilometers of travels to ride. But for the rest of the UK, it's, I've a canal path, tow paths, which are obviously very basic terrain. [00:21:45] Otherwise it's taken it on effective mountain bike trails. We don't have to. Hundreds of kilometers of kind of white roads that you know, you guys probably do. And so you see it in a complete different style of what is driving a ride in one of the guys? It works real well. He runs one of the biggest forums gravel writers in the UK. [00:22:05] And he was saying he was at the weekend and he was on a effectively, a mountain bike trail and everyone was surprised that he was there and he's governed by it. What are you doing on there, on that bike? [00:22:13]Craig Dalton: [00:22:13] Yeah, I think it's funny. Cause you can, a lot of, in a lot of situations like that, you can ride your gravel bike to the mountain bike area, ride the loop and then ride home. [00:22:23] Whereas the mountain bikers are all getting in their car and cruising over to begin with. Yeah. So that's exciting. Is rebel [00:22:30] involved in any of the events specifically as a sponsor? No, sir. [00:22:33]Jamie Burrow: [00:22:33] Not at the moment. I think basically because. I think over here, yes, events have started to take place again, but so many events are still on the even events are happening. [00:22:47] It's so touch and go down to the last minute, wherever they're going ahead or not. So we've, I think generally we took a bit of a back step on events over the last year. We had a big events plan for last year, which the whole thing had to be canceled. And obviously sales were so good last year. [00:23:03] Anyway, that. Between the events canceled and sales gamble, our focus has changed in other than once things do to return to normal or we'll be back, we had even talked about things like that, raver and having a presence there because and we know are important, they will be moving forwards. [00:23:18]Craig Dalton: [00:23:18] Yeah. We're just starting to see, I think this month here, June in the U S that the big events are starting to kick off again. We're fortunate that vaccination rollout's been pretty strong here in the U S so a lot of people have gotten the vaccination shots. So Unbound formerly dirty Kanza is actually going off probably the weekend before this episode roll release. [00:23:38] So we'll see. That's really the first one. I think that's going to kick off the very, very major events here in the U S side. [00:23:45]Jamie Burrow: [00:23:45] Yeah. Yeah. I think we're a, seems to be time trial and that's pretty much the only one that's got the guaranteed participation and [00:23:53]provided it's a bit more difficult. [00:23:56] Craig Dalton: [00:23:56] Yeah, absolutely. time-traveling has had a rich history [00:24:00] in the UK. It's so different than it is here in the U S I know time-traveling used to be just part of my father's youth growing up every week, he would go visit the county time trial and try to rip out a good time. [00:24:11] Jamie Burrow: [00:24:11] Yeah, I think you can probably ride a club time trial every day of the week in the UK somewhere. [00:24:17]Craig Dalton: [00:24:17] That's amazing for the Ribble brand. Are you selling across Europe and across the world at this point? [00:24:24] Jamie Burrow: [00:24:24] Yes, we are. Obviously UK is still the biggest market, but we definitely have expanded globally. [00:24:29] Us is probably the largest growing outside of the UK. What else should we be seen? A pre even pre pandemic growth into a lot of other countries where we hadn't previously touched on which is good to see because it has been all natural growth, we've not actually done any real targeted marketing for any particular kind of territory outside of the UK. [00:24:51] So any growth has been No it's come naturally, which is obviously very promising. [00:24:56] Craig Dalton: [00:24:56] Yeah. I think you'd get a, like a heightened level of commitment from the riders when they've found you naturally, they fall in love with the brand. They get it underneath them. They're going to be very passionate users. [00:25:06] Jamie Burrow: [00:25:06] That's right. Yeah. I think from why then I think one, the products that helped us was probably our eBike range. When we started our e-bike range, basically we knew that whole range in one go. And one of the key bikes, like a bit on the gravel within Europe, UK was probably the slightest responder in the bike market were Northern Europe, particularly places like Germany, [00:25:30] the e-bikes as a non biker as a everyday hybrid commuter and become kind of a. [00:25:36] And everyday thing the years in UK was such a popular trend and we reverse things in a way by starting with a lightweight carbon bike to fit in with our heritage as as a road brand, but reverse the trends of way through announcers during my starting with mountain bikes and hybrid bikes, and then going towards rode bikes. [00:25:55]But I think in doing so, and I think when we launched it, we launched the light is carbon e-bike in the world. I think that puts us on the map as a brand, whether customers are interested in an e-bike or not. And I think that bike helped drive awareness of the brand. And from there, we've obviously just seen it grow and grow in all sectors. [00:26:15] Craig Dalton: [00:26:15] Interesting one final question. One of the big challenges for the entire industry has been supply chain and componentry and getting your hands on the parts. You need to get these bikes out the door. How are you feeling about the current state of supply chain and how are you guys looking for inventory at this point? [00:26:31] If listeners are interested in picking up a gravel bike? [00:26:34]Jamie Burrow: [00:26:34] Yeah, it is, it's difficult as it is with everyone. I think we are probably one of the best placed. Out there. And a lot of it, because we were very fast to respond, which was good. But the key thing is the fact that because of our bodybuilder and every bike is built to order, we're not running a model years or catalog of models where if you're going to have that model, and then that was the [00:27:00] invention for that year, then you're stuck. [00:27:02] We can make those small changes, even if it's for a lot of people, it could be that bike and that spec. It might be the tires that are in that bike that they're taking the lead time from being next month to be in seven months. And because they are built one bites, one mechanic, we can just seem to call up the customer and say, look, you want to change your tires. [00:27:23] You can have that by next month. You can just where you see the dates on the website and then, you might see it by this kind of five, six month lead time, but it can be that one part. And we have got that flexibility too. To change that one part. And they say sometimes is as simple as, a tire handlebar tape, anything like that. [00:27:40] And, we can respond to that by switching these parts out which is one of the ways trying to stay on top of all the time to make. So we've always got these parts available, but, even if it is a bike that you've ordered and then that one part is a difficulty, we will contact the customer and let them know, you can change this by how you're gonna have your bike a lot sooner. [00:27:59] Which is something that not many other people have gone on the error on their side. [00:28:06] Craig Dalton: [00:28:06] That's very true. I hadn't thought about it that way, but if you're a big through the independent bicycle retailer channel and you show that you've got a pan eraser tire and you don't have a Panner racer tire, All of a sudden you can't ship that bike because it's false advertising or what have you. [00:28:22] And if everything becomes crazy and you can't get it out the door, I love that. I also love what you noted earlier about how [00:28:30] much data you get in real time from the customer. If they're moving towards flared bars or bigger tires, all these things really makes the Ribble business model interesting and flexible. [00:28:41] So that was super exciting to learn about that. And I encourage the listener to go to rebels website, play around with the bike configurator. It's just a lot of fun because it forces you to think through what's the ideal bike from me because you're not buying off a catalog. You're buying the bike that's built for you. [00:28:59]Jamie Burrow: [00:28:59] That's right. Yeah. And even downtown see the custom color. And that's been a real interesting experience in seeing where people have spend extra money on color over something that a more experienced person to say I've gone back to the kind of the age old thing of upgrading your wheels is always going to be one of the first things you should always do on a bike. [00:29:22]But maybe taking a fairly basic spec drive chain and we'll set, but then they'll spend a fair amount of money on out in the color. And, we see that all the time and it's one of those things, in my head, I would think, I don't know, why would you do that? But then you see it more and more. [00:29:38] And, obviously by having the bikes built here on premises ones where a mechanic, you walk for every day and you just see. What colors people are going for what specs and so interested in seeing what people are going for. Cause it's, they have got the freedom to do pretty much what they want. [00:29:53] Craig Dalton: [00:29:53] Yeah. I love that. I love that. I had a manufacturing facility myself and some days I would see the custom work going out the door and [00:30:00] think, God, that person's crazy for picking that color way. And other times I would see combinations that would never have dawned on me and think that is absolutely brilliant. [00:30:09] What a great idea. [00:30:11] Jamie Burrow: [00:30:11] Yeah. When we launched out. Few months back, we launched our CGR step-through e-bike. And one of the first ones. So on the shop floor was, had been aspect to carbon wheels, carbon bars, you would never find a pre -spec step through by we've covered wheels, cotton ball. [00:30:29] I don't think in any brand in the world, obviously someone out there maybe for mobility reasons needed. Step through for, even ease of getting on and off the bike, but didn't mean to say they weren't after a high-end performance bike, so why not put the to carbon wheels and carbon bonds on it? [00:30:48] Craig Dalton: [00:30:48] Yeah. Why not? Jamie, I appreciate all the time. It was great to get to know you a little bit and get to know the Ribble brand. [00:30:54]Big, thanks to Jamie for joining the show this week and telling us all about the Ribble brand. Very excited about what they're working on and very excited to get one underneath me and myself. Keep following me on Instagram. And you may see me on one of their gravel bikes sometime soon. [00:31:10]This week, my big ask for you is if you've got a gravel cycling friend, please share this episode with them or one of my other episodes. [00:31:16]I'm always looking to connect with new riders and hopefully provide a little bit of help in their journey to become gravel, cyclists. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels
This time on the Pneu Podcast, we wrap up our Women Who Rock series with Amanda Nauman! She’s a Two-time Queen of Kanza, and current holder of the Los Padre Traverse FKT*. Amanda is an elite CX race, gravel racer, podcaster, and promoter. Listen up on how she approaches all these different disciplines. *After recording […]
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Steve’s story is one that’ll get you pumped to start planning your next adventure and eliminate all excuses as to why you can’t or shouldn’t. Steve Cannon runs, fat bikes, kayaks, and skis but he wouldn’t call himself a runner, biker, kayaker, or skier, however. He would most likely refer to himself as an adventurer. Here’s why: * Steve has run nearly 100 marathons. * Competed in the world’s longest kayak race. * Completed the Tuscobia Winter 150 twice on his fat bike. * Finished the Arrowhead 135 three times, and most recently did so unsupported. * In 2004, he rode his bike to the starting line of the Deadwood Mickelson Trail Marathon in South Dakota—beginning in Iowa—before running the marathon and continuing on another 1900 miles and 38 days. * Completed over twenty RAGBRAIs. * Completed eight Gravel World Championships in Nebraska. * Completed four Ride-the-Rockies, * Completed the Dirty Kanza 200 five times, earning a coveted “1000 Miles of Kanza” goblet in 2017 while also "beating the sun". * He was the second person to run the 292 miles across his home state of Iowa in 11 days (averaging a marathon distance each day) and is the first person ever to run around the great Lake Michigan, logging 1,037 miles in forty days - This pursuit also became his first book "40 Days", which you can download for free here ( https://www.expandyourpossible.com/online-store ). * CompletedJay Petervary's 200-Mile Fat Pursuit in West Yellowstone, Idaho. You can relive the journey and incredible fight to the finish (along with the rest of Steve's adventures this year) here ( https://www.expandyourpossible.com/fat-pursuit-2019 ). * In 2018 Steve completed the Iditarod Trail 350-mile bike race. * In 2019 he became the very first Iowan to complete the 1000-mile Iditarod Trail Invitational bike race from Anchorage to Nome, Alaska. This historic race was documented in the movie '1000 Miles to Nome' which is available at ExpandYourPossible.com ( https://www.expandyourpossible.com/online-store ). * His adventures have raised nearly $700,000 for Livestrong, Camp Kesem, Above and Beyond Cancer, and the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society, If there was ever a person to come on the show to expand what’s possible for you, it’s Steve. Learn what you can and feel free to reach out to him to learn even more. Find out more about Steve at ExpandYourPossible.com ( https://www.expandyourpossible.com/ ) and on Instagram at @xpandurpossible ( https://www.instagram.com/xpandurpossible/ ) Is the price of gear holding you back from going on your next adventure or have extra gear you don’t need? Rerouted.co is offering a sustainable option to purchase and sell high-quality used gear to save it from the landfill, and save your wallet. Check it out at www.rerouted.co ( http://www.rerouted.co ) Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/adventure-sports-podcast/donations Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
durée : 01:58:17 - Trio Goldberg / Macha Kanza / Jean-François Novelli / Quatuor Ellipsos / Paul Lay - par : Clément Rochefort - Voyages d'est en ouest avec le Trio Goldberg, et au son du piano de Macha Kanza et Paul Lay, en passant par les saxophones du Quatuor Ellipsos. Enfin, Jean-François Novelli explore avec humour sa vie de ténor au prisme de Berlioz ! - réalisé par : Claire Lagarde
This week we speak with Dr. Allen Lim, founder of Skratch Labs about fueling up for big gravel rides. Allen's experience preparing athletes for big events such as The Tour De France has left him with a wealth of experience in how to prepare for massive days in the dirt. Episode Sponsor: PNW Components Support the podcast: Skratch Labs website. Automated Transcription: Please Excuse the typos. Dr. Allen Lim - Founder of Skratch Labs talks gravel nutrition Hello and welcome to another edition of the gravel ride podcast I'm your host. Craig. Dalton this week, I get to welcome on board another amazing sponsor of the podcast P. W. components. Peon. W was founded by husband and wife team Aaron and Emily up in the Pacific northwest after a long history working in the bike industry I I discovered pm w probably four years ago when I got a dropper post for one of my mountain. Are Really loved their focus on the customer. The product was well reviewed when I looked at it over the web and the delivery of the package was awesome. I just overall had a great experience. So was pretty stoked when I started to learn about their growing focus on the gravel sector. Because as you know, I've been fascinated by the growing influence of the mountain bike side of the sport to gravel whereas it's been dominated historically from a road orientation I think this outside influence from the mountain bike side is really starting to benefit consumers. So I've been using the PEON W dropper post on my gravel bike right now, I'm actually using one of their. Suspended dropper post which has been interesting and I want to give you some more feedback about that in a later episode but suffice it to say it's been really eye opening part of my writing. The second component I've been using has been there coast handlebar at forty eight millimeters. It's considerably wider than I had been using and what's been remarkable is the leverage. I can get from the outside of the bar that combined with short drop and a twenty degree flair has made me feel super dialed in the technical side of my riding. So anyway, go check out what they're doing at P. N. W. Components, Dot Com i. think as you dig in you'll. Start to see where their philosophy comes from and start to appreciate whether that'll fit into your writing. They've generously offered our listeners fifteen percent off their first order simply use the code, the gravel ride upon checkout, and that fifteen percent off will be applied to your order with thanks to pm W. Let's talk about this week's episode this week we've got Dr Alan Limb founder of scratch labs on the podcast a couple of things I. Love about Dr Lim is that he's a super straight shooter and he's the first person to tell you go cook something in your kitchen before buying something off the shelf I had the pleasure of talking to him while he. Was Actually running and coaching training camp from his car out in Colorado with some professional athletes. So as a few hiccups and fun things that happen during the conversation that I've left in for you to enjoy Allen's work with tour, de France, athletes, and ultra endurance athletes are really applicable to what we do in the gravel seen many of us are normal rides might be two to four hours, but a Lotta the events we sign up for be eight, ten, twelve hours. So how do you graduate you're feeding and nutrition and hydration strategy from the shorter rise to the longer rides with Dr Lim describes and recommends really resonated with me and I hope it does. Too, with all that said, let's dive right it. Dr Allan Lamb. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. Glad to be here I. Think it'd be interesting for my listeners to hear what you're doing at this exact moment. skills and drills I'm actually in the middle of a training camp following a group of writers who are doing some speedwork based on work on a little loop here in. Colorado we're doing a little bit of experimentation today with some hydration strategies, and after they finish this, we're gonNA give them you know argue super product that we've been playing with. We're GONNA try a little experiment do a time trial effort up big climb here, and then the workout today so. We're back in training camp mode, which is You know Kinda strange and a weird but glad to be added again, a a lot of caution being taken. It's super exciting to hear that it's super exciting to hear that kind of we're getting back in action because I know it's to look forward to the idea that racing and events are going to happen later in the year. So that's good to hear to take a step back for a second. Allen, could you tell us a little bit about scratch labs and how the company was formed and what the mission was? Yeah. So scratch lab started in two thousand twelve. It was myself a good friend Ian Macgregor who was a former pro cyclists and my old college buddy Aaron Foster and really scratch came from Kind of the work that I did on the pro cycling tour you know I worked as a sport scientists for many years in pro cycling and Developed a lot of I. Guess you know recipes ideas around nutrition doing the athletes I worked with. and. Around two thousand and ten or so I ended up on the radio shack teamed with Lance that whole thing kind of exploded and I just wanted to strike out on my own and not deal with all the bs around pro cycling anymore athletes were asking me for sports drink I used to make from and I never really thought it could do a business, but you know started making it to help them out and slowly through word of mouth, this company has grown into what it is today. We've always had a mission to help people become better that was and has always been my mission as sports I just and a coach and. When you get stressed labs, not only because we believe that drink is better from scratch. So we have these cookbooks wish your Thomas How's the you know cookbook affordable don't cable but I was starting my life over again. So you know the name really comes from the idea that no matter where you find yourself in life, it's never too late to start from scratch. Gotcha, and so that original hydration mix what was the composition of that and was it? Was it different than what you're seeing on the market at that time? Yeah you now. On the market at the time. I think that principally everybody who I knew who was an athlete was diluting their sports drinks and they're deluding deleting sports drink because the sports drinks were too sugary they were sweet their flavoring was too strong and they would often give athletes flavor fatigue and for many athletes especially long days and grand towards like the like twitter funds everyone would get gi distress and then lastly. Conventional Sports just never had enough sodium to actually replace what was being lost in sweat. So typical sports drinks might have four hundred milligrams of sodium per liter but a normal athlete you know would be losing between eight hundred, two, thousand milligrams of sodium per liter. So it wasn't like it was revolutionary we jus- diluted sports, drinks and added more salts. that was all that was needed. But I, think that most sports drink companies were trying to sell to Nas market consumers make these tastes super. Super. Syrupy. That was just. Not Tenable for most of the ethics I worked for. Do you think there was also sort of a line of delineation between the products on the market that we're focused more on on shorter events or just that that sort of instant gratification of a sweet drink versus kind of the longer toward of France level stage racing that you had spent a lot of time thinking about. Yeah most streams that were on the market were. Made for people stuck on Four, oh, five, and California. I. Do drink one, I'll be like Oh. That was I'm an athlete I'm stuck in traffic no big deal I mean, why do you want why did they sell sports rings a jazz station so I mean, come on give me a break right? Thing is kind of ridiculous. Yeah. It's interesting for me. You know the ads, a gravel cyclists as gravel events have taken on this new shape and form of being almost ultra distance in nature. I think it's really kind of forced cyclist. Nutrition a little bit more seriously because obviously there's a huge difference from your your three hour Saturday group road ride to a decay two hundred. Have you seen sort of the rise of gravel kind of create additional demand maybe additional thoughtfulness from customers. Well we certainly see a lot of gravel customers I. I think that generally speaking because they. Eat when they want to or there's a little more flexibility because the day is so long that the you know the the idea of real food that we really brought to the pro peloton really resonates with that crowd as well. Nobody wants to be. Eating. A ton of sugary. Syrupy Gel like substances, they certainly have their place and there's certainly needed at times but if you can supplement. Think. the whole entire competition becomes much more enjoyable. Right and you have less gi distress you can encourage more eating. You can get more more more salt and savory flavors back into a person's body. So I do see this moving towards real food in that world the interesting thing that. We also see you know now that we've released a superficial product, a lot of buying from that crowd without liquid fueling as well. Right. So it's it's it's both sides of the extreme and I think that travel updates are pragmatists more than anything else yeah. Absolutely. I think there's two things I'd love to drill in on because one one thing I love is your you always make a point to mention kind of real foods and that being an option and I know you have cookbooks that can help cyclists make foods for on the go use. Can you talk about some of those things that you encourage people or cookbooks? Yeah, you know I I always tell people that sports nutrition starting your kitchen. It doesn't start with the package that you open up. Right it starts with how you're feeling during your entire week leading up to an event how much carbohydrate you're getting? Loaded etc. Are you sharing meals with good friends and allies? Are you keeping yourself both physically and emotionally? Well? Social come on food plays a role in all that as well. So you know the fact that we do so you know prepackaged products and you know sports drink and all of these products that are convenient for athletes to be able to better fuel in Hydrog It It's true also that you need to be making as much. Real food is possible if you're going to be a high-performance obsolete so i. I wanted to make sure that people understood both sides of the story. Yeah, absolutely. That's interesting. Moving onto this the new super fuel product that you guys recently released. It's a drink mix, but it's got a high caloric count. I think that can be a foreign concept for a lot of people. Could you kind of talk about that product and how you're how people were using it pre-production and how you envision now that it's in the market athletes using it? Yeah. So I always felt that if carbohydrate solution was too high, you know anything about six percent. That it had could create problems of creating gi distress. And what was you know effectively we happening is that if you've got something that is too high concentration. The Malek. Killer concentration is high and water likes to follow a a gradient from Of Low concentration of high molecular concentration. So you know for reference point blood is about two hundred and eighty, two, two, hundred, ninety, million osmose per liter. That's a way of measuring the molecular concentration of blood. So to eighty to ninety. You have a sports drink. That is higher than that. You'RE GONNA. Have a difficult time getting water into. The body if you put one hundred grams of just basic sugar into sports, you'll have a number like five hundred. Fifty five right. You'll have a number us is just way too high for water to or You the more complex carbohydrates. On the market for things like all extra, which would digest too fast and when they digested, you'd have a bunch of simple sugars. It'd be like loading up playing with a bunch of passage passenger giving birth as soon as you know, they got on the plane. So, we knew that there was an issue while. Athletes can't always eat their food in the middle of the race. It's easier to drag it because they're breathing so hard because are tactical things going on because you know they might not be able to reach in the back of their pocket and actually you know handle it so. But we also knew that we needed to make something that didn't explode there that wouldn't give them. I stress. The solution came when we found a really really complex carbohydrate that looked more similar say Muslim Pica June, which is the way carbohydrate is stored in in in muscle where you have this very, very branched very complex. Carbohydrate, it's very big. So it's got like sixty, two, seven sugar units whereas a typical motel only have five to fifteen and it's wrapped itself kind of like a like a like a we. net net it ends up slowing aside Justin and makes it Super Super Cycle. So it it feels and tastes more like water but you can end up putting a lot of calories into it and it solves the problem of being able to. Treat your fuel because this carbohydrate is more like a regular. You know say carbohydrates starch than it is a simple sugar or even also extra. Interesting. So you know in in a long gravel event how would you use this? Like if you're if you're taking bottles, you know every hour is something that someone could theoretically use every hour or is it the type of thing that every other hour every four hours you might want to get one of these in your resupply kit? It depends on how many calories you're burning right. So Calorie is still a calorie is still a gallery people get all sort of messed up when they hear that it's a high carbohydrate solution that has a lot of flexibility they think that there is some prescription that all of a sudden they can change the rules in terms of their caloric consumption, but the reality of it is this. Is that if you're trying to get three hundred calories an hour, you still need three hundred calories an hour. This is be convenient way to do that If you need to get you know four hundred calories in our you know this is a convenient way to do that but you can't separate what you're alarming are from your hydration. So maybe what you actually need is you know Four hundred calories an hour but you also need leader and a half of fluid while you know if you're drinking. Regular sports drink, which is eighty calories and you need chew those bottles and our one, hundred sixty calories and you've got your hydration and so maybe you don't need a drink half a bottle of the super field to get those extra calories and. So, there is some math to be done, but that math is always predicated upon what it is that you know you need in terms of both water and calories. It's I'll give you an example. You know when the providers ef uses throughout the year, what we see is a very different behavior when it's hot versus when it's cool. So during the classics when they're fluid needs are much lower, maybe they only need a bottle. But there. are still very high maybe they need more hundred calories an hour they might just use super fuel. The whole entire time because it's got the same amount of sodium per bought allows a regular sports drink, but it's just more locally dense. But as they got into the say that the hotter races in the summertime. Because they eat so much more. Maybe two or three bottles and our they're making up a lot of those calories volume and they only drink one super fuel bottle. You know every two or three hours or you know so they might end up only drinking too high talbot bottles over the course of. But. They might end up drinking fifteen regular bottles, right? Right. So doing that math there is there is a calorie number that the body cannot process per hour that you you. Where do those calories go or the just wasted calories in your body? Not, that your body can't use them your body, will you know your blood sugar will rise you'll you know you'll end up throwing that in the muscle or fat? You know if somebody galleries like during a dinner, you release the hormone insulin which moves those calories into fat cells and muscle cells. For Storage I think that what you're really referring to is that there's a maximal absorption rate for calories so Person can't absorb. Hundred grams of carbohydrate across their small intestine. Our right. and it depends on on your body size. Certainly, a bigger person with the bigger gut is going to be able to move more carbohydrate and but as a rule of who is really fit and who has got a really good gi tract will only move hundred grams of carbohydrate and What happens that accesses it starts to you know create a bit of a traffic jam. Trying to get more people into Disneyland, the gates can actually pull across and so you got some traffic, and if you build up too much traffic, you end up getting gi distress, and if that geologists trust is really prolonged, water can flow from the inside of your body to. Women and enough enough water then moves into the intestinal and then it comes out your butthole and that's called diarrhea. Not, good for any race day. No. But as a pro mail, you probably know that you get yourself at least one half every year to accidentally shit yourself right. Exactly, there's a reason why? Golden that. There's a reason why I've got a roll of toilet paper in my bike bag. Exactly. Everyone's seen. Everyone knows you have is. That is really interesting and I remember going back to my days as an Ironman triathlete when I really I thought about liquid calories because I was struggling to continue to eat the same things hour after hour because I'm not the fastest traffic in the world. So as interesting and actually my first go around with liquor liquid calories did not end up going well because it was early days and I think it sort of just I couldn't get my body couldn't process it in the way that it sounds like your product is designed to be processed. Well, it's not so much processing. It might have been that your body processes to fast you. I guess too fast and you went from having you know the big complex carbohydrate molecules weren't taking up much room in the gut. Blowing up like a Trojan horse all these little pieces, and here's what's interesting about this idea of Osmosis or as pressure water likes to move from a concentration of low to high right and concentration is dependent the number of molecules number of things not to the mass or the caloric density of those things. So you're talking about you know one big legos structure may would like one hundred legos. If all those connected that one big legal structure even though it's a hundred times bigger than a single lego puts the same amount of pressure on the gut. And so what you want is you want a big carbohydrate molecule that breaks apart slowly. Digest, evenly so that you never overwhelmed the gut as those little molecules break off. Quickly by the body, and so you don't build up this excess. Traffic Gentler pressure. You know at the at the gates of your of Your Gi tract or your small intestine. So. Yeah and you know a lot of the original kind of high calorie liquid carbohydrate stuff were made with. these long chain carbohydrates that weren't actually that long. They were more like as I said earlier five to fifteen lugos units as opposed to the Super, Bowl. Hydrate called clustered action or highly rent cyclic textured, which is between two seventy goes through nuts in a more complex structure that takes a little harder to break down. Yeah I. Think you know one big takeaway for one big takeaway from the listeners I think. Test and learn to figure out what your body can. What you enjoy, what you can eat you know some people can eat blocks all day long or bars all day long but other people will either get bored with it or they're all their stomach will revolt and simply won't. Enjoy it or allow it to go down. Yeah and you know use commonsense in some ways there are no rules like if you love eating little potatoes that are soaked in Parmesan cheese and olive oil Napa on assault. That sounds pretty good to me. You know if for some reason, sticker bars worked for you then go for it. Right your your own experiment everyone is different. There are some rules of thumb about how much. Fluid, salt and carbohydrate you need. So be mindful of that and crates implant experiment with them and the field and and see what seems to work best for you. And I think one of the things that's been interesting during the pandemic is with all these diy gravel challenge is being thrown out there. I've got upcoming S bt virtual gravel event in August where it's going to be a massive day and I need to figure out exactly how I'm going to resupply what I'm going to be able to bring with me where am I going to get my water from throughout the day and I think a lot of gravel athletes are kind of going through the. Same thing it was one thing to to plan for a decay two hundred where they knew there were going to be aid stations but it's another one planning your own diy gravel event in your own neck of the woods and figuring out how do I get the right things for my body at the right time during a long day out on the bike. Yeah exactly and. A lot of that just takes time and patience and the prep do off. The bike is as important as what you do on the bike. So you know getting your little food cut up and prepared you know wrapping them properly getting them in the bag is getting the coolers out you know convincing a friend or you know someone who lives with you to come out and support you that day or two you know whatever driving out on the course beforehand and leaving stash bags for yourself it all takes time and work. If you're gonNA, do it and not totally fall apart and have as enjoyable of experiences possible, right? Yeah. No I think those are good words of advice because it's IT'S It's not every day we go and bang out eighty miles off road with ten thousand feet of climbing or something like that. You gotta be. You gotta be conscious that one of the great things about going to an event they've got you've taken care of a little bit like a safety net with the aid stations and you know and doctors on course and things like that. But if you are out there on your own, it's it's important to think both about your nutrition and your hydration and obviously your equipment and and sort of Ability to repair bikes on the trail as well. Yeah Yeah Yeah exactly bring that to bring your cell phone bring those tools, bring the salt, bring the water bring the carbohydrate Don't forget the Sunscreen, right? Exactly. I also wanted to touch on recovery drinks because I know I. Know You have a product in that vein, but also know you sort of talked about how you can make them on your own. Is it important to kind of look at a recovery drank a recovery product after every ride or is that only rides of certain duration? You know I would say that it's any time that you're working really really hard. So you know even with the best riders in the world that I work with, we might only do two or three hard workout. So a week I they might be writing every day but only two or three of those really just totally take it out. And when you do a workout that really takes it out of you or you any work out at all it's really really important that you eat. After that worked out There are a lot of metabolic advantages to eating after a workout. You'll preferentially put that fuel that you just ate back into the muscle that was just working whereas if you eat most of your calories when you're at rest the. Insulin will work on both adipose cells and muscle cells so you. Fuel possible entire body in proportion to your fat and muscle mass. But when a muscle has just worked out, it's hypersensitive to the hormone insulin and so when you eat after a workout. What you eat goes back into. Restraint. Lean as an athlete, right? So you know. The outages always tried to eat after I worked out now what? You need a recovery or you don't need a recovery really depends on I think convenience. We only use recovery drinks in those situations where we know we need to get a lot of calories back in an athlete, but we don't have a bowl of chicken fried rice thing around right? We don't have a chef you know who has a meal prepared for the athletes you know I went back home for Christmas to stay with my mom and visit and. You know she's A. Eighty year old Chinese woman and I got back to my ride. She was like I. Made You some recovery food. I was like all right. This is the best ever. you know the neighbor recovery only connotes that something that you're eating after a workout to start that recovery process. It could be a drink. It could be food it could be chocolate milk it can be whatever is convenient. We make products effectively chocolate milk were a charter milk or coffee note Four to one ratio of carbohydrates. Protein keeps to work the best in terms of restoring pocketed but you know. You have a you can have a pizza if you want to. Five I've certainly been known to do that Allan. Awesome Yeah I'll tell you this much. Response I worked seventeen out of the 21-stages, the riders, a chicken Fried Rice would they got back on the team bus and the other four stages they had pizza. That sounds good. Let me ask you another question. Allen on occasion I've come home from a long gravel ride and just felt like, Hey, I hadn't hadn't eaten enough maybe when I was out there on the trail and maybe twenty minutes from home and easy pedal and I might choose to have another. Another energy bar. She am I better served kind of waiting to shift gears into a recovery mix of recovery food. Or should I eat that bar if I'm hungry? Hungry. And in fact, if you are doing a really long ride and you're coming home and you're really hungry and you got your pocket. Starts the recovery process by eating all that food during your cool down the sooner that you can eat and the more you can eat while you're exercising the more that will actually go back into restoring that muscle glycogen and so even in a bike race if athlete has been dropped and they're just winding the group or the last packing into the finish, we'll start loading up them up with food drink at that point time we won't wait until they come off the bicycles to do so okay, and is there an ideal window to get that recovery meal in once you've gotten off the bike Yeah. Probably within an hour is the most ideal scenario. eight grade I went to stop these writers for second and load them up with more fuel now that we're talking about fuel. So hang tight for a second. We'll keep keep on going you got. You Guys WanNa. Repeal it up. That was pretty good guys. Feel. Let's Let's switch bottles and just go easy. 'cause we got that effort up we hill. Was the old. If, you could put much of that bottle down between here. and. He'll not. All you're doing is just everything you need to drink, but you're totally popped up. But we start. In fuel you just. I. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the middle of podcast right now you guys wanted to do a cameo on you wanna say something for the world. Ellen Noble? Everybody. Every evening yeah. You could go either either super fuel or go to white state whatever I just want to guys. Off so that when you hit that climb, you don't you detonate because you got you don't because he is out of fuel. Straight. The ride for a week. Yeah. Yeah not because you balk right there's a difference between not having the energy on that last supper because you're not you're versus. Just. Because I do want some experience with this because it situations where you guys are racing and you're not gonna be able to. Actually. Take you. About that you're interrupted no worries I don't think there's a better way to underscore the importance of calories and hydration than overhearing your conversations with these athletes and just underscoring how fueling up before that last hill climb in that last repeat is going to be critical to their performance. Have because here's the deal they're going to be going so hard and not lasts forty five minutes effort that they. They won't be able to feel and if they're not feel before that effort, it won't matter they won't be able to make enough in that last effort of the day right? So, now that we're done with that, just offer it and they have about thirty minutes before they start the next one. This is the only time that they can actually stock up again. And have the fuel onboard the last effort I think it's interesting as as gravel athletes obsess over the events or the roots that they're going to be tackling to kind of think about it in that context of like, okay I need be fully topped off before this big climb or this technical descent because I'm not going to be getting anything in my body for at least half an hour because it's just not feasible even reach down and grab a water bottle. Yeah exactly. So when you your nutrition as a gravel rider, it behooves you to look at the course and maybe not even do it based upon like anything more than the logistics of what's possible and Where you're going to be the under. Yeah I think that's the if you don't think about it in that way, inevitably, you're going to get caught out and get into a situation where you haven't physically been able to consume anything for a while. That's right. That's right and I love simulating this stuff is training because it's when the point gets driven home like you can talk about it in theory but if you're not constantly reminding the athletes to do it in training the. They're from them to feel the difference then it doesn't get home. All right yeah. No, that's exactly true and I think there are a lot of really hard lessons for the average gravel athlete because these events can be so outside your norm, the distances or course profile can be so different from what you're used to. It's really important to put a lot of thought into nutrition hydration before tackling one of these things and as you said, do a little testing and learning put yourself in the hurt locker in a place where you're you can be safe and you can get home rather than trying to figure it out at SPD gravel or dirty Kanza. That's right. That's right. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah. That was actually really really appropriate right in terms of. The five wall and and and what what what what what happens. Yeah. Totally and I appreciate you making the time today to join the podcast and you just got back from another training camp in here in the middle of coaching athletes right now. You gotta try to cap was interesting. The other training camp was interesting. It was with Nike Barbara Track Club So all running right but same type issues With. Respect to fueling and. All. That sorta stuff. Yeah I think the so it is interesting in in it must be super fascinating for you as a as a sort of someone who looks at this from a scientific perspective to see how performance in other disciplines other sports kinda relates and differs from what we experience a cyclist. Yeah exactly. Exactly. Cool Man. Cool. Well, I will put a link to scratch labs and all your products in the show notes and Again, I really appreciate the time and advice for all our listeners. Yeah. No problem anytime if you guys ever have any questions don't. Hesitate to reach out I'm easy to find the INFO at scratch labs walked I've got a great team. But for questions, they can't handle they usually come to me so we're always. Awesome have a great one allen. Good to talk to you man. Okay thanks crank enjoy. Bye. I hope you learned as much as I did in that conversation I think there was some great takeaways and it was a lot of fun having the conversation. Big. Thanks to pin W for sponsoring this week's episode and big thanks to you and everybody who's been visiting by me a coffee dot com slash the gravel, ride your contributions and support are critical to what we do at the gravel ride. As always we welcome your feedback across social media channels or hit me up directly at Craig at the gravel ride dot bike if you have ideas for future episodes or any comments about this episode until next time, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
Laurens and Stevie go on. And they are not alone. If you want to race Kanza you have to know your game. And if you want to win Kanza you have to know it all. And even though our boys claim to know it all, they don't know shit. And whom better to ask for help than a former winner of the race. Alison Tetrick knows her Kanza. She knows what to eat, she knows what to drink and she knows her equipment. And even more important she knows how to tell it. The only thing she doesn't know is where te he finish line is. Does it matter? You'll find out in the Live Slow Ride Fast podcast... Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Laurens and Stevie go on. And they are not alone. If you want to race Kanza you have to know your game. And if you want to win Kanza you have to know it all. And even though our boys claim to know it all, they don't know shit. And whom better to ask for help than a former winner of the race. Alison Tetrick knows her Kanza. She knows what to eat, she knows what to drink and she knows her equipment. And even more important she knows how to tell it. The only thing she doesn't know is where te he finish line is. Does it matter? You'll find out in the Live Slow Ride Fast podcast... See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
This week we talk with one of gravel's finest; professional racer and event organizer, Amanda Nauman. Amanda is a 2x DK100 winner and runner-up in this year's Mid-South event. In September, health conditions dependent, Amanda and team are introducing a new gravel event, Mammoth Tuff in Mammoth Lakes, CA. Episode Links: Support the Podcast Amanda Nauman Instagram Mammoth Tuff Gravel Event Automated transcription: Please excuse the errors Amanda, welcome to the show. Hey, nice to see you, Craig. Yes, there, we have it. So Amanda, we all start off the show by learning a little bit more about your background. How did you come to gravel cycling A long roundabout way, but I can give you the short version is basically I grew up swimming and from there I was swimming in college. I started getting sick of it and then I started doing triathlons. And from there did a few collegiate bike races enjoyed bike racing, got a job in the bike industry at felt bicycles. All my coworkers raced bikes. They kind of said, Hey, you know, you should do some of this racing stuff. It's fun. Sure enough, I was kind of good at it and that's how cyclocross and like cross country mountain biking started. And then the next thing was all the gravel events that started coming up. And I was kind of using those events as training for cross. Cause it was a good time of the year to be doing all those longer events. And then yeah, I found success in gravel events and that's, that's the shorthand version. So where you start, did you start off with a road bike? Was that your first bike when you were doing triathlons? Yes. Yeah. Good question. But yeah, so I got a road bike first and then when I started getting good at triathlon stuff, then yeah, I got a triathlon bike after that. And then did you get a mountain bike to kind of just dabble in off-road riding? I think so. I, I had always had a mountain bike, which is funny because I grew up going to mammoth during the summers. And so my dad really liked mountain biking. So my definition of mountain biking growing up was like going up a chairlift and riding down. So I remember when I was, yeah, I remember when I was in college distinctly having a conversation with somebody that was like, mountain biking is so hard and I was like, no, it's not. You just go downhill the whole time and not, not having any idea, like actually what it was all about. But yeah, my first bike, like first bike under the Christmas tree that I can remember that was actually usable, was a mountain bike and that's how I got into it. And so when I wanted to get the road bike, my dad was riding road at the time and he was like, yeah, let's do it. And so it was something that we could do together also. Neat. So it's probably, it sounds like it, those early skills kind of left you with some great bike handling relative to the overall spectrum of triathletes. Yeah. Surprisingly, it's something that I look back on and realize that, you know, my dad taking me to ride mountain bikes at a young age was he didn't know he was developing all these skills I would need later. But yeah, I was lucky to, to have that True. And as you were sort of adding disciplines to your cycling career, were you living in Southern California at the time? Yes. Yeah. So I grew up here swam here, but I went to college in the East coast, in New Jersey. And so that was like indoor swimming, you know, dealing with winter and stuff during triathlons and all that. But I applied for a job at felt bicycles cause it was an Irvine, which is like 10 minutes away from where I lived with my parents at the time and I got the job. So after the summer before my final year at Stevens, I went and did an internship there and came back and they, they said, you know, if you finish the school year, you can have a full time job after you graduate. So that was how all that happened. So basically I lived on the East coast for five years and came back home and yeah, I'm still in pretty much the same area. Nice. So the leap from triathlon to cyclocross is pretty huge. How did that happen? Is there a big cyclocross scene down in Southern California? Yeah, so the triathlon stuff I was doing pretty good at, and the funny thing is like all my coworkers in the engineering department, it felt raced cross cause it was fun. Short. The Soquel scene was pretty good and there was like a local grassroots team that was sponsored by felt at the time. So I would go and watch the races first before I ever raced them. So I would go and watch them the first event that I ever went to, to like actually spectate was cross Vegas, cause I was working in her bike at the time. And so we all just went to watch it. And that was when I realized like this cyclocross thing is amazing. Cause if you think about my first introduction to like big cyclocross events was cross Vegas and I thought all of them were going to be like that and it was nuts. But yeah, so I fell in love with just watching it from there. And then, you know, I had some friends that convinced me to do it. David actually signed me up for my first race by just like telling me to show up to this event. And then he signed me up without telling me, and I just happened to have all my bike stuff cause we were gonna ride afterwards. Yeah. So my first cross race was like him just signing me up without telling me. And as it turns out you had some running skills from your triathlon career assets. Oh, barely. That was my worst discipline. I don't know if you'd call those skills. I would just, you know, yeah. I can get off my bike and trot for a little bit again. Nice. Do you remember the first gravel event that you entered that you'd consider kind of a gravel event? Yes. It was Belgian waffle ride. I, you know, jokingly, I still consider that a road race. But that was the first style of that event that I did. Yeah. and I don't remember if it was the second or third annual. But it was still when it was at spies headquarters. Like it still felt small. I remember like Jonathan Page and Nicole Duke were in the race. And so as a cyclocross racer, I was like, Oh, this is awesome. Like these pro cross racers are here. So then at the time it wasn't anything more than what felt like, like a really long cyclocross race. Really. Okay. Yeah. And you know, one of the questions I definitely wanted to ask and it may come up in the context of our discussion about mid South is as a female athlete in these mass start races. How do you kind of navigate that? Obviously, you know, you're on the trying to be on the front end of these things, but you're mixed in with men and women. How do you, how do you kind of navigate that as a professional woman? Yeah, it's definitely something that's evolved over time. I mean, I can remember the first two years of dirty Kansas still making the front group and that was totally normal at the time. But as the, the speed of the front got faster, you know, it's way less possible for me to be able to hang at the pace that Ted King's cruising net, you know? So I think what happens in the women's race is everybody just goes and hangs on for dear life. And for a lot of people, I mean that first hour is like across race, whether you're male or female. But I think specifically on the women's side too, it's like, we're trying to get in as fast as group of possible in the beginning and try to hang on with wheels as fast as you can. And yeah, I mean, even I was writing some notes down in my mid South race and like the beginning of it, we just, we were going so hard and it was so unpleasant and it's one of those things where like, I'm going to be out here for like eight more hours after this. Yeah. I got to imagine it's tack the tactically really interesting for you to kind of figure out because yeah, maybe you don't want to be on the Ted King, Peter [inaudible] pack. So killing yourself to be in that is not going to be in your best interests, but you do want it, you, you are going to finish relatively high obviously for the overall. So finding that right group to hook on with and hoping your other women competitors aren't hooked into the same group is that is kind of a tactic I suppose, right? Yeah, for sure. And I, it's hard to, it's hard to say which one is the better tactic because you think about like, Amedee, Rockwell's start at dirty Kensal last year, she came in, you know, maybe in the top 10 to that first checkpoint and she admits to not having a good start at all and not being where she should have been. But you know, at the same time there are events where like I can say I've won or did really well because I did make the fastest possible group in the beginning. So it's a trade off and I think the distance and the length of the events plays into it, you know, there's some where you absolutely have to be as far up as you can in the beginning or else, you know, it's almost impossible to get to the front. But yeah, I think it's very event specific for sure. Do you find yourself thinking about that in training to say to yourself, like I gotta be able to go full gas, but then back it off and you know, obviously make the distance. Yeah. yeah, you cut off a little bit, but I think, you know, you were asking if it applies to training and for sure, I think there's a lot of times where you that's honestly, how I think about it is the first hour is like across race and then you're just hanging on for dear life. Some of the training rides that I've done in the past have been like showing up to our local group ride around tears called Como street. And so I I'll go do Como street on my road bike, which can be like a good two, a little over two hours. I'll get back here and get on my gravel bike and then ride for another three or four hours. And that's the best simulation I've figured out how to do where I'm going, as hard as I can to hang on to this group. And then, you know, still being able to like fuel and drink enough to be able to ride for X amount of hours after that. That makes sense. Have you had occasions where you've made sort of made the group and maybe dropped off later in the race and you found someone else rode a wave forward and ended up bridging up to you because of the work of other athletes in the race? Like they bridged to me from behind. Yeah, because they just happened to sort of get involved with a simpatico pack. Yes. Yeah, for sure. My first mid South in 2018, 2018, yeah. 2018. I made a really good group in the beginning. I got to the checkpoint, I had to pee. So I had this like whole ordeal running to a porta potty. And so when I left, I was completely by myself and I was by myself for a while. And this group of guys along with Chi Takeshita showed up behind me and I was like, God damn it. Like, you know, you're going through this thought process of like, she caught me because she's in this group and I've been by myself and this sucks. But I ended up having a conversation with the guys in the group and I was like asking them, you know, cause there were, her teammates were in the group as well. And I was like, if you are just going to pull her, like let me know now, cause I don't want to play this game. The guy was like, no, I'm going to let you guys have your own race. And so he ended up attacking so that the group would split apart. And that was what happened. Like everybody ended up stringing out and we regrouped in different places and that was where I ended up dropping her. So yeah, there've been quite a few instances where all get caught. You know, if you're in a group of like five or six and somebody solo, there's a really good chance you're going to catch them without doing more like, less effort than the person ahead of you. So it definitely becomes a strategy tactic game for sure. Do you get the sense with your fellow women competitors that, you know, people are just like, it is what it is and sometimes it's going to fall in my favor and sometimes it's going to happen against me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, especially as these events got bigger and there are more women, there are more people period. Like there's just a lot of different variable speeds. And a lot of times like that, that just shuffles the board completely. And, and definitely, I think I'm more stressed now because in, in the early days of the gravel racing, like where you ended up in that first hour, there was a pretty good chance that was like where you were going to finish. But now with so many more people out there and a lot of different people who are similar speeds to you as well it's easier for that duck to shuffle a bit more. So yeah. It makes it more fun I think. Yeah. So I was excited to talk to you about your second place finish at mid South this year, I was watching the coverage and it was a bit of a bomber that the women didn't get as much camera time as the men did in that race. But clearly like you turned yourself inside out for that performance. So I'd love to hear just kind of how it played out. Yeah. Thanks. And it's funny cause like I then the night before, so Thursday night the night before the expo and all that I was hanging out and Ansul Dickie was there, the guy from Vermont social who does a lot of Ted King's videos, he does a lot of the, the wall wahoo stuff that's coming out now. And he was part of that group that was doing the coverage of the front of the race. And he said to me, he was like, yeah. Bobby brought us on to do the coverage at the front of this race. And I was like, Oh, that's awesome. But never, it didn't cross my mind at all to ask him like, Oh, what about the women? It just, I had assumed that it was only going to be the men's coverage and I'm kind of mad at myself now for even just thinking that way, you know, because I was just cutting myself short for one. But yeah, it was kind of a bummer that had happened that way. I know they learned their lesson and they've already addressed that. Cause people were pissed and I saw the comments afterwards and I was like, Oh God, this is, does not look good. But I know that he's gonna, you know, take care of it two fold next year for sure. But yeah, it was, it was a very difficult race and for a lot of reasons, I think the, some of it was like even emotional as much as it was physical. And everything was just stacked against us. I think from the beginning, like I felt guilty even starting the race. We were sitting in the car that morning and I'm texting people like, is there going to be a lightning delay? Cause it was thundering and lightning all around us. It just felt like everything was saying this event is not happening or it shouldn't be happening. But yeah, we got to the start line and it was crazy, you know, the usual jitters of the event and we took off. And I honestly didn't think it was going to be as hard as it was in the beginning and we it's pavement for a bit but not very long. And then there's a stretch of gravel, another stretch of pavement. And then it's pretty much gravel for a long time. And I knew that I had to stay ahead. Cause as soon as they hit that second stretch of pavement, it's they go pretty hard. Cause there's a little bit of a climb then it starts spreading out from there. But basically once we got into that pavement and then the next stretch of gravel, it was just full gas. And I was looking at my power and I went, there was like 15 minutes in that section where my normalized power was two 85, which is like a climbing repeat effort for me. Like I can normally my workouts, if I do that, it's like an eight, nine minute effort, not 15. And yeah, so like five minutes after that Hannah got away in a group that I could see, it was like, you know, you hit one little mud section wrong and all of a sudden you're like five seconds back from where you were because you come to like the screeching halt and I can just see her riding away with this group of guys. And I knew that if I wasn't going to get there, it, I knew it probably just wasn't going to happen, period. Which sucks. But that's the reality. That's the reality of it too. Sometimes unless I get in a group of guys or something happens to her, it's going to be very hard for me to close that gap and then suddenly it just that whatever group she was in just got away completely. And so I was kind of in whatever third group was hanging out behind that. And yeah, once we hit that bridge that everybody has those pictures of where people had to dismount and get across it, cause there were all those boulders. There, the other girls that had been around me at that time were no longer there. And I was kind of in no man's land knowing that I was in second cause I saw a hand and get away. And that was where I pretty much stayed for the rest of the race. Mine is going back and forth with Lauren Stevens for quite a bit of the first half actually. And then even into like miles 65 or so was when she finally, I think hit a little bit of a wall cause she had been traveling from Europe the day before. No big deal. And yeah, so yeah, she ended up fourth. I think her teammate pastor at some point in the second half and I was second. And to set the stage just to, just to set the stage a little bit more for the listener who may not have seen the weather conditions, it was absolutely dumping, raining cats and dogs before you guys started, did it continue raining through that first half of the race or when did that stop? It probably stopped about two hours in, so it wasn't too bad, but it was annoying enough for those two hours that I could tell from the condition of what we were riding through. Like I wanted it starting the race to be a six hour day. And I remember two hours in, I was riding with somebody that I know and I looked to him and I was like, I think this is going to take like seven and a half, eight hours. And it that's, that's how long it took, it sucked, but I just knew the speeds that we were going and like how muddy it actually was and how much it was slowing our, our regular average down. It was just going to be a really long day. But I, you know, I really like how that second half of the race was almost, you know, everybody kind of ended up in one place and everybody was either going super far backwards or staying kind of in that same area. Like Hannah was only three, a little over three minutes faster than me in the second half of the race. So had we been, had we left at the same time, it would probably would have been more of a race, you know, cause, you know, within three minutes you can probably see that, but because she had 10 minutes on me in that first half, you know, there was no way that I knew that she was going to be 12, 13 minutes up the road, so it makes it less of a race. But yeah, it was interesting how the conditions really just made it all even for everyone. Yeah. And what, what did you, what were you riding and any specific choices you made because you knew it was going to be a slop Fest? Yes. Good question. So the bike Niner RLT a nine RDO frame, it's just their gravel frame, but it's the new one this year that has all the extra mounting bolts and tire clearance specifically which I was very stoked about because last year with the older frame, I had less tire clearance in my tire choice last year in just the one stretch of mud that we had last year, brought my bike to a screeching halt and it was terrible. So this year I knew what kind of peanut butter mud I was dealing with. And because of that, I decided to bring an extra set of wheels with mud tires on it, the Panner racer, gravel King muds, which I've written in dry conditions before and really liked. So I know that they work well regardless of what the conditions had been. And yeah, so that was the big I guess change that I made knowing that it was going to be disgusting. Yeah. And inevitably, I mean, obviously mud did accumulate on your bike. Did you have some techniques preplanned to try to help you shed some mud? I bought Pam and I sprayed my down tube. I was considering spraying my wheels and I was sitting there at the front of the car hunched over with the Pam and David was like, do not spray your wheels. Cause if that gets on your rotors, you're not stopping. And I remember I was actually thinking to myself, like, there's this, there's going to be some point in this race where I'm not stopping anyways because I'm not going to have brake pads anymore as it doesn't matter. But yeah, I did. I bought Pam and sprayed me down too, but I don't think it made that much of a difference, but that's a little cyclocross thing there. Yeah. I'd heard a couple of stories about that kind of stuff, which is kind of interesting. And I was also, it was interesting hearing from paisan about him choosing a slick tire saying to himself, like I'm kinda kind of hosed one way or another, so I might as well choose something that's just gonna accumulate less mud. Yeah, I know. But I'm to, maybe I might be the only person to critique him on that. I don't think that was a good tire choice because it messed him up in the beginning and it ended up collecting too much. And I think had he had a little, just a little bit of knobs on it, you know, it's able to shed in a different way than like a completely smooth surface is just continuously collecting stuff sometimes. So I know, I mean it's pacing. He has the ability to ride whatever he puts on his bike honestly, and probably still do well. So he's like, Oh yeah, this is great. And I'm like, yeah, but stop telling people that, cause it's probably not great for everyone. Right. Like I honestly don't think it is. And I don't think people should be like, well, if paisan did it, I'm gonna ride this. Like and he can give me crap for that if he wants to. But I don't think it's a good all around her for everyone. Yeah. I think we're going to need a pan racer or IRC to do some studies on, on that before we take it to heart. Yes. Well, cool. I mean, I saw some of the pictures of you crossing the finish line and you just looked destroyed from that effort. How did you feel when you hit the finish line? Okay. Great relieved. I mean, it was, yeah, it's hard when you want it to be a six hour day and it ends up being an eight hour day. Like I said it's not that hasn't happened very often for me. Mutually in the events, you know, you have a plan a where everything's gonna go well, and you have a plan B when it's not in that you still plan for that. Like dirty Kanza for example, I always pack like extra clothes and, you know, brighter lights in my third checkpoint bag, knowing that something could happen, but I've never had to like dive into that Oh, crap stuff. And this event I had to, like, I knew it was going to take a long time. And so it takes a toll on you mentally. And it's one of those things where looking back, knowing that Hannah had issues with like nutrition and not getting enough calories at the end, you know, if somebody had told me that when I got to the halfway that that was going to happen, like maybe I would have dug a little bit harder, who knows, you know, it's just a lot of things that go on where it was just such a brutal day that I was like content with where I was honestly I'd hate admitting that, but it was like, I just wanted this to be over with seriously. Yeah. I mean just keeping the pedals going in those kinds of conditions is a huge accomplishment. So yeah, I don't blame you. It is interesting in these long races that notion, and I think, you know, anybody at your level obviously knows this it's it's you gotta keep going. Cause you never know what's going to happen in gravel. People could have mechanicals or as you said, they could have just had a bad nutrition moment and all of a sudden the wheels completely fall off. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And, and that is, I mean the same thing happens in cross. Anything can happen to the people in front of you. It's just one of those things where it's a lot more grueling, do it for an extra four hours or whatever. The one nice thing about this year's event was it's the same. It was pretty much the same course as the year before. And so I knew that they had like a secret, a wasteless thing around mile 80, which the year before I took maybe a shot of tequila or something, I don't remember what it was. I wasn't having a good race last year, so I needed to stop there. And this year I was like, I don't care if Hannah's a minute ahead of me, I need to stop and get a shot of something. So I stopped at this Oasis and the guy had like all these liquor bottles sitting out in front and these little plastic cups to pour into. And I was like, just give me a shot of something. He's like, well, what I'm like, I don't know. Just whatever. So he's like, here's some Jameson I'm like, okay, thanks. And yeah, right after that section, it's like really Sandy, even when it's wet, I don't know how it's still hard to describe sand section for about 20 or 30 minutes. And I knew like it was going to help me get through that. Nice. You heard it here guys pro tip from Amanda? Yeah. Make it fun. That's awesome. So, you know, pandemic aside, what would your year have looked like? Like what were your key events that you were targeting and what we'll talk about, like how the rest of the year is gonna play out, but what was your calendar looking like? So I would have been in Kansas last weekend for the DK camp and then I would have been at sea Otter coming up. And then I would have been spending some time in mammoth coming back for Belgian waffle ride and then pretty much getting ready for DK XL after that. And then in July I was going to go do the rift. That's probably definitely not happening. And then August I was considering going to grab a worlds for the first time, which is kind of a bummer. And then, yeah, I had a big plan actually the beginning of September to do this event called the caldera 500, which is a really small, underground backpacking thing, but it's in the Eastern Sierra and it starts and finishes and mammoth. So my whole goal this year was three 50, figure out how to ride 500 miles in the mountains and then, you know, get ready for mammoth tough and do that event for everyone. So, yeah, that was the original plan When you were, I didn't realize you were, you were doing DK XL, not just DK. Yeah. Yeah. How were you thinking, how were you thinking about that? Were you just sort of thinking, you know, you're at the point where your, your body's ready to kind of tackle some more ultra distance style stuff? No, I don't think I was physically ready for that at all. It was, it was honestly more of a mental thing when you finish five of the Kansas, you get this like grail cup thing and it's the, the thousand mile club basically. And so David and I both finished five last year and once you finished five, it's like, okay, now what, you know? And I think it was nice to have the option of the three 50 because the way that I look at going back in 2015, when I was thinking about doing dirty Kanza for the first time I wasn't concerned about winning. I honestly just wanted to finish it. And I had no idea if I could do 200 miles or not. And that was the biggest appeal to me, honestly, of going to do that because David had done it the year before, and I was like, you're nuts doing 200 miles. Like why would anybody do that? And you know, fast forward five and a half years, and it's the exact same thing I'm saying about the three 15, it's a fun place to be. I'm afraid to do something new. Cause that was the whole reason why we started doing this stuff to begin with. And I think it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next decade, if that is a natural evolution for some people or if it is the kind of distance that's a little too daunting. But the way things are looking with, you know, increased participation in that event, I think maybe it becomes the next step for people. Yeah. It is interesting to think about like, what is too much even like, you know, obviously DK 200 for the average athlete is that, you know, Dawn to evening kind of endeavor you know, much like an iron man distance triathlon. And once you start taking it fully overnight or over a couple of days, yeah, it does become this sort of rarefied area of athlete that is going to say, Hey, that sounds like a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a big commitment. And th the unique thing about it that I've heard people talk about, who've done it before is, you know, like a J Peter, very who does these ultra events and this really long distance stuff, sleep is a factor. And it's something that is a tactic in those events, but you go to a distance like 350 miles, it's doable in one swing, you take sleep out of the equation. And all of a sudden everybody's dealing with like sleep deprivation instead of strategizing naps, like they would for bike packing stuff. So it is something that makes, I think that distance unique because it's doable in 24 to 36 hours, so you can get away with not sleeping, but how does the body handle that? Yeah, I think that's the interesting thing. Like you, it's really hard to simulate that and to imagine doing many of them in any one year. So I feel like you're going to learn, you would learn a lot of tough lessons when you do it. Oh, I should have done this. Right. I could have saved myself hours if I had just made that one critical decision and it's going to be, you know, a multiyear process of learning like these guys, you know, like J Peter Barry that you mentioned have figured out, like they know where they can push the body where they need to turn it off and just take a break in order for the bigger goal of just moving forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know I was talking to URI about it at DK camp last year, asking him about it and if he would ever do it again, and he said, never like, he doesn't want to touch that thing ever again. And that's so scary to me because it's like, I don't know. There's still a lot of hard things that I've done where you think like, I can do that better, or I want to try it again and try to do it better. And he's just like, I am not touching that thing again. And I'm like an emotional level. It was too much for him. That's really fascinating. So the other big thing, yeah. Obviously like for your fall this year is you, you guys actually started to plan your own event. Can you talk about how that came about and what are the details? Yeah. so it probably happened, I don't know, three years ago or so. David and I would go ride in Bishop, which is a little bit South of mammoth and there's a bike shop there called Arrowhead cycles. And these local guys just do these gravel rides out there. And we showed up to one, we did a couple cross races with them and it was so much fun. And we realized during these rides that they have like the most amazing gravel in that long Valley caldera and all the areas surrounding mammoth. And, you know, we had done dirty Kansas traveled across the country to go to all these races and here, you know, five and a half hours North of where we lived with some of the best gravel that we had ever seen. And we were torn between, do we want to keep this a secret and leave it to us only? Or, you know, as we started going to other events, we were like, no, we want to bring our friends here to do this and ride this area because it's so awesome. And yeah, that's kind of, that was the Genesis of it. It was just knowing that we had something so beautiful in what we would call her backyard. Cause we're up in mammoth so often. And we, yeah, we wanted to share it with people. So it started with doing all these adventure Ries and we were like, okay, well what kind of route could we do? And yeah, that was how it was all birthed was basically these knuckleheads that live in Bishop that know all the great roads down there. Right. That's awesome. And mammoth obviously has a story tradition in the, on the mountain bike side of the sport as being just this Epic destination for a race and all the pictures you guys have posted so far leads me to believe that gravel is just awesome out there. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's interesting you say that because they have historically hosted those kamikaze games for a very long time and it does have a rich history of mountain biking. And 2019 was the year they canceled it. So they canceled kamikaze games, you know, just didn't have enough traction anymore for the mammoth and we're not making enough money, whatever the case may be. And we strategically picked that weekend to host mammoth tough because we, it would be nice to bring enough people back up to that area that, you know, maybe the kamikaze games could come back in the future. It would, that's like the big goal is to turn it into a nice bike festival of sorts. Again, whether that's, you know, gravel and mountain or whatever. But it's, it does have such a rich history in bike racing period. And so that was part of the reason why we wanted to go back there. And the nice thing about that weekend is it's still the, the closing weekend of the bike park. So it's the last time, you know, the chairlifts are running and you can still go ride mountain bikes if you want to. And your friends can do the gravel race if they're dumb enough to. So tell us the details. What's the actual date and what does the event look like? How long is it? What does the climbing look like? Yeah, so it's September 19th, 2020, if we're still allowed to be in mammoth at that time. Right now they're, you know, obviously trying to keep visitors away from mono County. And yeah, it is a short distance of around 41 ish miles and the long distance, I just went through the route again today it's 108 miles and it's going to be a doozy. And yeah, I would highly suggest if you're like concerned at all about the distance of doing 108 and eight miles at that elevation to start with the shorter one. Because if you're questioning it at all, I would rather have you finish the event and get a taste of what it's going to be. And that was kind of the way that we wanted to set it up anyways, to make it like a stepping stone of sorts to get into the, to be able to do 108 miles up there. But the cool thing is also a lot of the short course is most of it's actually going to use roads that aren't in the long course route as well. So it's a complete, almost a different event cause it's going to be in a different area. And yeah, so hopefully those two options are going to be good for people. The, that weekend is also the same time they do October Fest in the village. So we've partnered with them to know, you know, do food and beer and all that stuff at the end. So it's kinda nice that they have a party set up for us. Yeah. That's totally handy. And that the mammoth, the start lines at about 8,000 feet, is that correct? Yes. And that's pretty much as high as you'll get, cause you're going to go downhill from there and then back up to that elevation and you might match 8,000 at some point, but you're never going to be climbing over that. So it's not going to be anything crazy like Leadville. Okay. That's good to know. Cause I was thinking a couple thousand more feet of climbing at thousand feet. The lights are gonna turn off. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, it's going to be hard though. It's one of those, like another reason why we wanted to do this event, I go and ride up there a lot because it's really great training because of the altitude. And it's, it's so funny riding up there consistently and knowing like exactly how much lower your power is than at sea level, because it's, it's so hard, but it's a lot of fun. It's pretty, it's worth it. Now. It's exciting that that type of event is now on the calendar because I think like Leadville and other sort of high elevation events, they just become this interesting thing, this interesting challenge in the community, just something different to target, right? Like I know I can ride 108 miles, but can I do it at 8,000 feet of elevation? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's, that's one of the cool things that makes gravel so great period, is that everything about it and all these different events, there's something unique at all of them, you know? And they're like, I like to think there are, there's like the Midwest style gravel rolling Hills. And then there's also this like mountain gravel, which, you know, it's funny to call it that, but there is that separate discipline. That's completely different from a Kanza or a grovel worlds where there are sustained climbs. And that makes it a very different event than something where it's con rollers like the whole time. Some like lost. I'm glad you mentioned that because it's been something that I've tried to tease out over the last couple of years because it, when I got into gravel and I chose like a bike that maxed out at 38 C tire, actually less 36 see tires, I was like, this is just not the right bike for me, but it dawned on me like for the things I was reading about in the Midwest, it probably was a totally suitable bike. And for me, you know, I ended up in this sort of mountain style gravel here in Marin County and I won't shut up about six 50 B, 40 sevens and 50 tires. And I'd probably go even bigger if my current frame allowed it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and that's, what's so cool about it. Like I said, like, that's your definition of it. You have your equipment that fits that. And there are people that, you know, are on the complete opposite end of the spectrum where like their definition of a gravel of ant is doing Belgium waffle ride every year. And that's like, you know, a road bike with 28 seat tires. So, you know, you can find anything in between. I'm always surprised when people online will totally discount something, like take the Niner, MCR, the full suspension bike, like it does have a home unequivocally I'm prepared to say that like, that is a great bike for some writer. Whereas, you know, as you said, it may be totally unsuitable for some writers out there in their native terrain. Yeah, exactly. And That's the great thing about it is that there's something for everyone and it's, you get to define what you want gravel to be. That's the great thing is like it's not road racing or crit racing where there's a pretty good definition. You know, what to expect in those events. And gravel is like, well, you can get a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And like you can pick a small event that is 200 people, or you can pick a big event that has got 5,000 like and anything in between. So I like that it's up to you to define what you want it to be. Yeah. And then the other thing is like the personality of the bike can change with just the simple change of tire. Yeah, yeah. For sure. I was just talking to somebody. Yeah, Yeah. Go ahead Amanda. Oh, so I was just talking to somebody about you know, what's the, the, the easiest thing I can do to make like a gravel ride comfortable. And I said like tubeless tires and like wider tires and that's it. And it's so true how it's something very small and minuscule, but if you take the time to figure out right tire pressures and good sealant and all that stuff, it could make a world of difference and make the ride quality completely different. And like a lot of these bikes with the same, to be quite honest and, you know, but the difference between having 60 PSI and knowing that you can get away with 23 PSI in a specific tire and make it super cushy, that's a huge difference. And it's going to be the difference between rattling your brains out and like having a nice, smooth ride Totally. And having, just getting that skill set. I think of being able to change a tubeless tire is important as gravel cyclists, because you can really maximize your enjoyment. Like I, I have some sort of semi slick tires that I put on the bikes specifically to explore further routes that are, are gonna involve more road riding. And like, I, I would not take that route with my knobby tires just because I'm like, why would I do that? But once I put a semi slick on all of a sudden, I'm like, cool, I can ride 20 miles on a road and explore some gravel that I've never seen before. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And in that, in that same vein I started working with Rene Herse this year and on their tires and that's opened my eyes in like what's possible with a really fat wide you think is a slow tire and it ends up being super fast and awesome. And being able to like change tire pressures on a ride, you know, if you know, you're gonna have to be on the road for an hour, you know, you can pump it up a little bit and then as you get to dirt, take some out. But yeah, it's been fun. I've had the privilege of not having a tire sponsor for all the years that I've been doing gravel stuff and I've had the ability to just test whatever and ride a lot. I love there's like certain that I'll ride for certain events because I know that they have tires that fit that. And then, you know, I don't have like a deal per se with a Renee her's tires this year, but, you know, they're giving me the opportunity to test a bunch of their stuff and find out what I like in that line. And it's been fun cause I, you know, as a cyclocross nerd tire choice and pressure and all that stuff is huge in that discipline. And it's been a lot of fun to carry that over into gravel because you go from like four or five different tread options to like 400 different tread options. So yeah, yeah. Right on, well, as we close the podcast section of this conversation, is there any advice you'd give up and coming women athletes who are looking to gravel as kind of an opportunity in the cycling space? Oh yeah. That's a good question. I think the, the biggest piece of advice I have is like, don't be afraid to just try something new. I, I was lucky enough to have a lot of friends that wanted to go do these crazy adventure rides with me. And I think that that's a big barrier to entry for a lot of women is feeling uncomfortable to go do it themselves. But what I've found is that there are a lot of like really inclusive, welcoming people in the community that even if you go do one of them by yourself and you're afraid to go do it, I promise you'll make a friend when you're out there riding. And that's, I think my favorite part about doing these events is like, I'll go in it knowing six or seven people, my teammates, you know, guys that I want to ride with. And I ended up finishing the event with a bunch of other friends because, you know, stuff happens out there and you end up with people that are riding similar strength to you. And that's the best part it's like walking away at the finish and you're like, Oh, I'm going to find you on Strava. Or like, okay. Yeah, here's my Instagram. And you make new friends. And I think that's, that's the best part, but it is scary to jump in and commit to it. So that's my, my biggest thing is just try it. Yeah. I think that's great advice, Amanda. And I think that's a good place to end the podcast section. So thanks for coming on to report the record the podcast this week. And we had Amanda, we had one more, we had one more question that came over Instagram about the Michigan coast to coast. And just, I think just generally getting your feelings on that race About it, like should do it. Yes. Yeah. So I did, I've done the past two years when it including the inaugural year and that started because Matt Aker came up to me after mid South in 2018 and he was like, Hey, I'm doing this crazy 200 mile race in Michigan. And all I was thinking of was like, I dunno if I can do another 200 miles in the same year as you know, doing 200 for dirty Kanza, but they convinced me to go. And the, I knew mento Dijon was going to go and at the time he was writing for cliff and also writing for Niner. So I think we both were like, okay, let's just go do it and see what happens. And it ended up being awesome. It's this point to point race. And do you normally the like closer to the end of June? So you have like three or four weeks after dirty Kanza to get ready for it. I tell people if you don't get into dirty Kanza, you should do Michigan coast to coast because it's a good backup plan. You know, if you don't get in the lottery for decay. And it's a super fun, I like it. The, the fact that it's a point to point is a pro and a con the pro is that it's awesome to never have to see the same thing twice. And then the con is logistically it's kind of hard to plan for because you're, you gotta get your car to one end, you know, or whatever your transportation is. But there's a lot of people that will do the relay. So your, your partner does the first hundred and then, you know, you switch and somebody does the second hundred, which is pretty cool. Okay. And do they have, do they have like a bus or something that will bring you back if you have to get back to your car? Yeah. There's I think the service that they do is you, you park your car at the end and then they like take you that morning or something. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a lot of fun. It's definitely unique. The psycho crossers out there will enjoy it. Cause there's a ton of sand. So I know like a few people that did the event that weren't expecting that weren't very happy about it. Cause like you have to know how to ride sand and or else it sucks. Oh man. I'm, I'm all for it in events to throw different skillsets at you. Cause I think I want to see that, like I want to see the winner having good power on sort of flat, you know, the gravelly Rowley roads, but also have the technical skills to handle rock gardens and sand, sand pits, everything. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, and that's, you know, not to throw too much shade, but that was why I was really excited to see how Stetten his year was going to go. Cause he's such a roadie that like how how's he gonna, you know, bike handle at some of these events? Yeah. I mean, clearly like anybody who's spent as much time on the bike to become a pro roadie, like they're going to have the handling skills, but I did notice like, you know, you were too busy racing, but I was watching that coverage of mid South. And when, when it got gunked up on the bike and he's like, man handling his derailer, I couldn't help. But think like here's the disaster waiting to happen. Whereas, yeah. Whereas Payson's like dipping his bike and, you know, shedding the mud and very carefully shifting gears knowing that like, if they've all falls apart, it's on him. So I thought that was fascinating. And I'm kind of with you, I don't want to throw shade, but I was kinda like, yeah, like you have to have experience in the dirt and grit and mud. I want, I want you to have to have that to win these races. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's not so much shade as it is. Like, that's what makes this stuff interesting. Like, you know, he's all in to try and win this stuff you're like, but should you have really written through the mud like that? And you messed up your derailleur. Yeah. And like looking at BWR, it's like, you know, okay cool. Like if, if I realized that, you know, it's going to be won and lost in the dirt, but it's a different skill set than a full dirt race, you know, I think that's interesting. You do see different athletes shining there. They're not going to make them shine at some of these other gnarlier events. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Cause when I was talking to Renee Harris at the beginning of this year about doing the tires, you know, Ted King obviously rides those tires and I got her on the phone with him to talk about stuff and he's like, yeah, you know, I rode the 30 fives at Belgian waffle ride. And his thought process was hoping that Stefano was going to have a hard time in the dirt and that the 30 fives would be an advantage for Ted. And it's like, I love stuff like that. I love like the thinking and the thought process behind all of that. Well, that's definitely my jam. I'm just hoping it gets really, really technical if I'm ever going to get ahead of anybody. Yeah, exactly. Out of my way. All right, Amanda. Well, this was awesome. I appreciate you making the time to catch up with us. And it was, it was fun to see this and do this looking at you face to face. Yeah, yeah. For sure. You, you've got a lot of great podcasts and you know, as somebody that was trying to put on an event for the first time this year, you have a lot of great conversations with race promoters. And it's, you know, I want to say thank you for doing that because it's a different side and angle of this discipline that I don't think people talk enough about like, yeah, there's so many great events and stuff, but the work that goes into putting on an event, like you talked to Sam and you talk to the Mount lemon, you know, gravel grinder guys, like all those stories, it all comes from a love of the places that you ride. And I think that that's so cool. And it's great to see all these promoters, you know, wanting to share the great roads that they know about with everybody else. And, and that's something I think that's so unique to, to this discipline. So it's great to hear that side of the story and I, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to those people, not just, you know, bike racers that are trying to go smash it on those roads. Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate those kind words and absolutely. I mean, I think now more than ever, we need to be showering, love and respect on event organizers. And as we've talked about offline, like this, fall's going to be complicated in terms of there's going to be so many great events. And you know, my advice to people is just put as many on your calendar as you can possibly do and kind of spread the love around between different events. Because if we're not supporting the event, organizing community, they're not going to be around next year. No one is, this is not generally speaking of money, making venture for anybody. It's really coming out of a love of showcasing the great roads trails in their neck of the woods, as you said. So. Yeah, I think it's super important. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what, what were you going to be at? Let's say we're allowed to start racing August. What was your August and September going to look like? Yes, it's a good question. So I had a little bit of a back issue over the winter, so I was kind of like personally looking towards the end of the year already. So, you know, not say the pandemic worked in my favorite cause it's been utter hell, but yeah, I wanted to do lost and found. I wanted to do Rebecca's private Idaho. I was thinking about the Oregon trail, gravel grinder, but worried, I might not have the time to spend a week up there, but I love what those guys have created up there. Yeah. Yeah. So those were the three that were on my mind. And then here in Marin County, we've got adventure revival. There's a bunch of the grasshoppers that are awesome. So like wherever they might fit into my life, I would love to kind of add those guys in because again, the community is great. They're mellow. Like the Miguel, the organizers just been, he knows how to do it. Right. And it doesn't feel overblown, but it doesn't feel under done as well. Yeah, so those are my thoughts. I still like super excited to go to Idaho. If that works out, I've got a podcast coming up with Rebecca and like she was preaching to the choir whenever she says things like, Oh, I wanted to put something more mountain biking in here. I'm like, yes, because I could, I could at least thrive in one section of the course. And I love, I love being in the mountains. And you know, when I heard about mammoth tough, I had a similar type reaction. I'm like, that's one. I definitely want to get on my longterm list because like, I just know when I'm looking around, it's going to be, it's going to just fill my soul with joy. And that's, I mean, that for me, that's what the mountains do. And those are the events that I'm generally drawn towards. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I know what you mean and yeah, it's kinda, I just wonder what's going to happen later this year. I know that look, were you planning on being a dirty Kanza Or no, I wasn't going to be able to make it okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that moving to September you know, I listened to the conversation with Jim and you know, all the weather and everything seems like it should be pretty similar to the conditions in June. But I, at the same time, like, I don't even know how many people are going to be comfortable traveling still at that time. And that's what makes me weary about all these events coming up. And you know, in two weeks from now, we can look back on this conversation and just laugh. Cause maybe it's not even possible at all. But I'd like to remain hopeful, you know, that some stuff keeps happening. Oh, I do want to take a minute and remind people to freaking quit riding in groups. Do you need to go on that rent? Cause it's still happening and I am. Yeah. I'm not happy about it. Every time I go out on the weekend specifically, I'm like, I know all of you don't live together. This needs to stop I'm with you as well. Yeah. Instagram is throwing up a timer that says I have one 48 left. So apparently there's a time limit on this thing. And we found it. I feel like super accomplished that we hit it. Nice. Nice. Alright cool. Well Amanda, thanks again. And we'll talk again soon. All right. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks everyone.
This week on the podcast we speak with 'The Queen of Pain' Rebecca Rusch about her gravel event, Rebecca's Private Idaho and The Be Good Foundation. Episode Links: Support the Podcast Rebecca's Private Idaho Rebecca Rusch Instagram Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos) Rebecca, thanks for joining the show. Oh, it's awesome to be here. I'm stoked. Thanks. As is customary. Even though you've got to have well-documented history. I'd love to just hear how you got into gravel riding specifically. It's kind of funny cause I got into gravel. I'm kicking and screaming. I was forced into it. I'm a mountain biker. For those who don't know, I'm a mountain biker, a at heart and rock climber. And had a sponsor that really wanted me to go to this race called the dirty Kanza. And that was maybe 10 years ago, nine, 10 years ago. And I didn't want to go mostly because 200 miles on a gravel road to me seemed like a death by boredom. And it was the first race that I used headphones and was kind of looking, the distance didn't scare me. It was more I, I just wasn't intrigued by riding on roads as a mountain biker. And I was really surprised when I went at how unique and interesting and how gravel roads are really, you know, kind of the combination of the cool things about mountain biking and cool things about road and really were sort of a melting pot in a way where you needed technical skills to kind of maneuver the chunky gravel and you needed some road skills to sort of stay alive at the beginning and find a wheel if you could. But really it was, it trended a lot more towards the solo mountain bike. Things that I really gravitated to. And really going to that event was the impetus for me to launch Rebecca's private Idaho. And I'd always wanted to launch an event in my hometown because it's a really special place. I wanted to support my community to some fundraising rides, but I always thought it was going to be a mountain bike stage race. And it ended up, you know, once I got intrigued by gravel and the second event I did that year was an event called Levi's grand Fonda, which is a road event. And again, a sponsor made me go. And I was pleasantly surprised at the community that they built around that with a festival and a party and all sorts of things for everybody from, from kids to elite athletes. And so the combination of those two events in one year really inspired me to take, you know, some of the best things I love about riding, which is, you know, being alone and you know, out in the wilderness and having a really kind of solo experience, but then also coming together as a group in a community at the end to really celebrate. And that really is kind of the flavor of, of what Rebecca's private Idaho is about. And so, yeah, I was, I got involved as an athlete because my job required it, but it really did sort of spawned this whole new facet of my riding in my career. That opened a lot of doors for me. There's places in my hometown I've never written. So I started exploring for a course for private Idaho. I was just like, wow, I've never been here. I've never been here in Idaho. Has a lot of dirt roads. So it's a, it's been a really fun multi-year experience for me and I never could have imagined that I, you know, what I launched was a really big event. We're going into year eight now. And I, I just did not expect even anyone would come. Or that, you know, I was on the front end of this sort of gravel explosion. I had no idea. I was just presenting what seemed cool to me and a style of writing that seemed fun for me. And little did I know it was gonna eight years later be really kind of blowing up. I'm in the cycling world. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things, and one of the reasons I was excited to talk to you today as I share a mountain bike passion and a mountain bike background, and I think sort of anecdotally, it seems like a lot of people get drawn into gravel from the roadside of the market, not necessarily the mountain bike, mountain bikers, you know, we've all written those sections and experienced those high fives. You're like, why would I ever want to go on the road or why would I ever want to ride gravel? Like mountain biking is so fun, but as you noted, there's, there's something different about the gravel bike and it's not to take anything away from our shared continued love of the mountain bike, but the idea that you can explore a little bit further than your normal mountain bike loop and you can forgive yourself. The notion like, Oh, I might just ride on a road for a little while to get somewhere. I definitely found myself getting out the Marine County map trail map and sort of just tracing out places I wanted to explore that I just never would have reached on my mountain bike. Totally. I did the same thing like I've lived here for almost 20 years and I just started looking at maps and seeing like can I connect these dots? And it was super exciting for me. And I do feel like you touched on something that's really special about gravel is that it is exploratory and it is this feeling of like what's around the next corner and can I go a little further? And you know, I've been that kind of, I've had that sort of spirit and mentality of explorations even since I was a little kid. Like I would camp in my backyard. I wanted to like see what was the next block over. And with all my sports that I've done, I've just kind of wanted to see what was over the next Hill. And cycling really has provided such a great template for that because like you said, you can just go further on a bike than you can walking, you know? And I love paddling and climbing and hiking and running, but I can see more on a bike. And so it's that childlike curiosity in me that you know, is alive and well and the bike is such a good, a great tool for that. And I think that's one of the really cool things about the gravel event community is you're seeing event organizers over the country basically take what you and I just described, that passion for their local community, that obsessing over maps and trying to figure out the best routes and then saying, I finally nailed it. Come to Vermont, come to Kansas, come to Oklahoma. These are the roads you want to ride. So you don't have to think about it. Just get over here and I'm going to take you on the best tour possible for the next hundred or 200 miles. It's so cool. And I think that is where you touch on something. You know I talked about how gravel is, is really is kind of a coming together, a meeting place a mixing pot of gravel or of road community and mountain bike community. But the spirit to me and what you just described of life, like Going to explore, offering checkoff at this cool route, this spirit to me it feels much more like it's not to dis Yeah. When, Oh this is really, Cause it's, it's in there. The road aspect of steering a meter, you know, catching that next person and getting on a wheel and not losing a wheel wheel and you're, you're so focused on staying in the draft that you're not looking at the Sioux all the time and think when roadies could be shaped sort of the dirty, gritty, you know, different nature of gravel level. And I think that's why mountain bikers like it to be true because it does feel it's dirt in, you know, it's, Oh, it's like the dirt. There are mites like something this isn't totally smooth underneath your tire. And you know, as people come in and as gravel Travel grows and grows, it's real. That's really important to me. That's roots and gravel community maintain that grittiness of grit, call it that. And that gravel doesn't become just a cookie cutter of what didn't, didn't work on the road. And I know U S USA cycling is looking at that kind of stuff and people will, you know, the community is, is kind of like what's going to happen with gravel. And I think, I think what's really cool as we have these discussions, discussions, and we're in this sort of like, we're probably in the, in the golden age of, of gravel events right now as they're growing, they're popping up people, people are loving them, but there's also the growing pains of the pains of like what is gravel, what's it going to become? Come. And there is a, there is a uniqueness in every single single event and mine's more towards my personality as a mountain biker and I'm going to try to make it as rough and technical and, and off-road as possible. Where another other event might trend more towards a road aspect. Like, like Belgian waffle ride is a good example where there's a lot more pavement and it's not to say it's not a good, a good event, but it has a very different style and personality that you then, then what my event would and, and I, I liked that they're all different. I think that's really important for him to maintain that uniqueness. Yeah. I think that's great. As as we currently have a schedule or a calendar that allows athletes to kind of go wherever they want. And there's not like this, Oh you have to do these five events in order to win some sort of calendar. Cause I think the danger there is yeah, you want to have events that have multiple different personalities. I love the idea of an event testing everybody's skillset from raw horsepower to super, super technical terrain. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's why I launched a stage race in the way that I did the queen stage race, which Chaz, you know, stage one is all an motorized trail 50% single track. And then stage two is a five mile uphill time trial, you know, which suits a totally the road. Please love that one. I've had some of the mountain bikers beg me to get rid of that stage. You know, it's like, no, I'm not getting rid of it. And then the third stage is, you know, the, the, the long course, the baked potato around the a hundred miler that has as kind of a bit of everything. And so, so yeah, I I, you know, try to offer up something for everything and the, you know, the regular private Idaho course. So one day there's, you know, sections where, you know, the big Hill climb at the beginning. Trail Creek summit is a, you know, more than thousand foot climb and you know, that really separates everybody. And then there's a couple of small sections where if you do have a road and, and pace land mining skills, you can hop in with people and then I throw them for a loop and get people off on a really rough double track that I call LD abuelito. It was a new five mile section this year and not really split everybody up on the way back home. And some people loved it, some people hated it. But yeah, I want to offer places on the course that suit a variety of different riots writers so that you may hate me on what part of the course, but you're going to look at me on another part of the course. Yeah, I love that. Personally as an athlete, I love, I love when I hate my bike during one section saying like, Oh, I made it to off-roading on this road section. Like I feel like that's the Mark of a good course designer. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna, we're here today really to talk about your event. Rebecca's private Idaho. Can you just kind of break it down for everybody? What are the dates? Where is it located? You talked a little bit about why you started it, but I'd love to hear it just a little bit more specifically about the event and what people can expect. Yeah, the is labor day weekend, so this year that falls on September 3rd through six and you know, the main event is on Sunday of labor day and that has everything. Now. We've grown to a 20 mile tater tot route to the, you know, 60 ish mile French fry and a hundred mile baked potato root. And those are all on the Sunday of labor day weekend. I've also expanded to include the queen stage race, which is a three day gravel stage race that takes place over four days. And really what I found is Ketchum, Idaho, sun Valley, Idaho, where I live, my hometown is where the event takes place and it is off the beaten path. It's the reason I call it Rebecca's private Idaho. Because it is quiet and, and intimate here and it's a small town and it's hard to get to. And that's why I put it on labor day weekend. One is, it's a beautiful time of the year here, but also to allow people that extra holiday to travel. Because once you get here, what I find is people don't come for one day. They come here and they want to stay a few extra days and they want to explore a little bit more. And that's why after about the fifth year of private Idaho, I launched the stage race because people have asked me, Oh, this year we're going to come, we're going to say a few more days. Where can I ride? Where can I ride next? And so I decided to just put that platter out for everybody to select from. And you know, and there's a big parade that weekend, my goal was, was not just to host a bike event, but to really show people this special place to support my community, to support bike charities and eventually my foundation that I launched. And so, and also I want my friends to stay a little longer. You know, we've all been to those bike races where you drive up in your car, you got your gear, you, you know, unload, get dressed right at the back of your car, go do the race, load up your car and go home. I didn't want that kind of experience. I wanted, you know a bigger sort of by end of the season bike celebration. And that's, that's what it has grown to become. It's, it's really cool. I really look forward to it. But I, and I do try to, the reason we've launched different distances and is to try to welcome everybody in. So the tater tot, for example, it's 20 miles. It's non-competitive and hopefully it's a stepping stone for people who've never tried gravel or you know, parents of kids who want to ride and then they step up to the French fried and they step up to the big potato. And I have a course in my head, 125 mile course that eventually I'll add when I can call the twice big potato. So, and Rebecca on that tater tot route, is that sort of dirt roads that kind of, you know, anybody who's sort Of comfortable riding a bike is likely to be able to achieve? Yeah, totally. It's about 50% payment, 50% dirt, and you get a nice little taste of this cool road called corral Creek, or you ride out and you get a view of the pioneer mountains. And it is kind of like this little little teaser to, to one show you that, Hey, riding on growls just fine. And number two to make you feel like you want to see what's over that next Hill on the pioneer mountains. Cool. Nice. And then does the French fry get into any sort of dual track or single truck, The French fries and the big potato they had out the same way. And so you know, you climb the really big Hill at the beginning up to trail Creek summit and that's the same route that the wagons came over during the or days, you know, where they were mining for or across the Hills. They come over that same Hill and much of that terrain as you had up and over that Hill. It's kind of the gateway into the copper basin, which is very remote, very few homes. It really looks the same as it did a hundred years ago and it's the same route that the giant wagons traveled over. And that's the parade that we have is our wagon days parade. So it's pretty cool. Once you leave Catchum, you know, you ride about 20 minutes on pavement then you drop cell phone coverage, then you hit the dirt and you don't get off the dirt until you return back to town. So you really do, it is kind of a gateway for me into like going back in time and you leave the technology, you, you leave it all behind and, and climb up and over trail Creek summit, that first big climb, that's the biggest climb of the route, which people are always kind of like, Oh my gosh, it's such a big climb. But what's really nice is it's pretty cold in the mornings in the mountains at that time of year. And so it does two things. It warms everybody up and it also really breaks apart the groups. And so it's nice if you're, you're nervous about riding in a big group or like me, you, you like to ride in smaller groups. The trail Creek Hill climb really does kind of separate everyone. So you end up with these nice pods of, you know, might be a 1500 person start line, but almost immediately it doesn't feel like that because the Hill kind of puts you where you know where you should be and people that are riding your speed and it instantly makes the community feel smaller. And that's the biggest climb of the day. So I was telling people once you're up and over that, you know, it's not the biggest challenge of the day, but it's definitely the biggest climb of the day that you get out of the way early. And how much, how much elevation are you gaining in that climb? I think it's about 1200 feet. So you know, you go from, you go from, you go from 58, 6,000 feet up to eight. No, it's, I have to look, I should know this number. It's, yeah, it's, it's over a thousand feet of climbing. And so a nice big time you know, I think fastest times are, you know, 35 ish minutes up at S, you know, up to twice as long as that. So, so you get warmed up right away, get nice and nice and sweaty and into the group, and then you really do drop into what feels like you're going back into time into the copper basin in that area. And both the tater tot and or sorry, both the French fry and the baked potato go up and over and do the same beginning part of the course and share a lot of the same course. Cool. And then, so you're over that Hill then what's next on the big of the baked potato? Yeah, in the copper basin. You know, then you hit some nice smooth fast road for a while where the road diesel will be enjoying that. It's a pretty well traveled road. But then we hang a right over towards wild horse. It gets chunky again. And what's cool, the summit that you've climbed over for trail Creek, you're, you're crossing the pioneer mountains. And so the view from Ketchum, you see the pioneers from, you know, from the one side, from the West, and then you cross over and you, you just get these beautiful views of this mountain range from the other side. And so you're completely on the other side of the range. It's very remote. You'll see antelope, you'll see you know, probably more wildlife and definitely more bicycles than you will cars. And it's all public land out there. There's a few ranches but mostly it's public land. And so it's, it's really a special place. And there I do, like I said, I do put people on a couple turnoffs that are nice and chunky. So WildHorse Canyon is a Canyon that both courses go up the French fry and the baked potato and that gets real chunky and you know, loose gravel and splits. The Peloton is apart again. And then that's the point where the French fry folks turn around and head home back to catch them. And the baked potato people continue on to copper basin loop road, which is, you know, your along the big lost river for a while, which is really beautiful. And then you do the copper basin loop, and that's the most remote loop. It's 23 mile loop. I think that's one of the hardest parts of the course, cause you're the first, the furthest out you have the longest stretch between rest stops. And the road is, is quite bumpy, can be quite windy. But it's also in my opinion, the most beautiful part of the course and you really are rewarded with these stunning views of the mountains. So I try to get people to look up if they can back there. And then you have the long journey home. You know, at that point when you finished copper basin, you still got 30 miles to get, to get back to catch him. And you know, there is a very predictable headwind that happens every day. You will have a headwind going home from private Idaho. It's just how it is. The slower you are, the stronger your headwind will be. So it's motivation to get yourself back up and over been over trail Creek, your last rest stop. And then one of the most beautiful distance in the world over the climb that you came up in the morning is back into Ketchum down the trail Creek you know, Hill climb and, and back to the wood river Valley. And it's pretty special. I mean I, I train on that Hill all the time cause it's really nice, awesome grade of a Hill. And I never used to see anybody like doing intervals or riding up and down that Hill. And what's cool now is I see people all the time just out there and it's, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. And for those of you haven't been to Idaho, I encourage you to go on Rebecca site, the Rebecca private Idaho site, and check out some of the images. They just look spectacular. I love it. It's pretty special. And that's the point. You know, we ride our bikes to challenge ourselves and I'm all about being competitive and pushing myself and going hard. But we also ride our bikes to be with our tribe and then to be in a beautiful place. And it really is, you know, people place and purpose, you know, those are kind of the things that, that drive me for private Idaho is the people that get to come here and be part of it and, and share this special place that I live. And then the purpose, which is, you know, as we talked about a little bit about the be good foundation and helping other people ride bikes. Yeah. Yeah. So we talked about how you can pop in, you can do just the Sunday event, but you've, you've created this whole kind of four day ride experience. So if you're signing up for the whole shebang, I know we do a rider meeting on Wednesday, but tell us about Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Yeah. So Thursdays Of course. And I will say, you know, this stage Reese at this point I'm the queen stage race. It is sold out because it's only, my permit only allows 250 people. And so it's a much smaller offering as I can expand that I will. And so for those of you who are bummed, you're not in the stage race. I do have on, on Saturday there's a ride. On Thursday we do a, a night or Friday we do a night ride. That is a we're a dark sky preserve. And we're also we have some history with Ernest Hemingway here who lived here. He wrote here and eventually took his life here. And so we do a dark sky reserve, Hemingway ride to some of his haunts, like his grave and the Hemingway Memorial and read some poetry. So even if you're not in the stage race, I do try to put in a whole bunch of rides that are open to anybody so that if you come here for a few days you have something to do with us. And there's the parade. We have two different expos. So if you're not in a stage race, don't be all bummed out and sign up earlier next year. But stage one is and they're all different with this. The goal of this stage race was to show people three very distinct, different parts of the wood river Valley. And so stage one is it the Galena, Galena lodge trails. And that is mostly single track mountain bike trails really that are rideable a hundred gravel bike. You know, and you do have to use the same bike for all three stages. You can change tires, but you know, you can't ride a mountain bike. And stage one, a TT bike on stage two, for example. And so stage one is a lot of single track, quite a bit of climbing. You're up at higher elevation. I'm about 50% single track. And then the other 50% is a non-motorized trail that is our cross country ski trail and sort of double track ish wide. But that's the Harriman trail and that goes to up and down the entire wood river Valley. And so you do a bunch of single track and then you drop onto the Harriman trail. And that's a about a 50 mile stage. And I think when you times are about three hours, but it's, it's, it's cool because you're doing like whooped dues and bermed corners and you know, roots and rocks. You know, on a mountain bike it would feel like easy single track. But on a gravel bike and it gets pretty spicy, there's a lot of flat tires. There's, there's a lot to be said. If, if you have the skill of a mountain biker you're just going to be able to avoid flats a little better, be smoother, you know, and find a better line. So it, the mountain bikers really love that stage. And I think for the gravel writers, what's cool is it really shows you where you can take your gravel bike. I have had so many people finish that stage who were like, Oh my gosh, now this opens up a whole like menu for me at home. I didn't know I could take my gravel bike on that type of riding. And that's, I really love that because it opens their mind to go explore where they live. And then stage two is I, stage two is probably my favorite stage because the race part of it is only five, four and a half miles, the uphill time trial. But the whole stage together is 50 miles because there's like a 20 mile neutral ride out to this very remote Hill called dollar summit. And then a neutral ride back. And so it's kind of the best, it's the best part because everybody's riding chill. They want to save their legs for the, their race segment, the time segment. And so for 20 miles, you're just riding and chatting with all my friends and all the pros are up there talking to each other and it's cool. Social ride with a really hard uphill time trial. And then a social ride home and there's hot Springs on the way back. You always see people who are like got into the hot Springs and they're soaking there on the way back from the ride. And so it just feels really festive. Even though you know you're going to taste blood in your mouth on the uphill part of the time trial the rest of it is super fun and exciting and, and I really love that stage. It's my favorite one. And then there's a rest day for the stage race folks and that Saturday and so that's the day of the parade. We have a big social ride. If people want to do that, that is free to anybody. We have our welcome expo that happens with, you know, vendors and you know, all that kind of good stuff. So Saturday is a pretty fun social day. And then Sunday, you know, of course is the big day with the baked potato, the French fry and the tater tot and 1500 people all lining up. And then, you know, when we finish, we have a giant expo with live music and you know, shooting potato guns and you know, there's a game we had called Gulen de coughing that is sort of like you know, sliding beers into the air and trying to catch them and pour them on your face. But yeah, I mean, people take it seriously when, you know, they're the writing of chill Creek, but the idea is to celebrate when you come back. And, and we've had we had a wedding at the finish line last year. That was pretty exciting. There's a lot of cool stuff that goes on at the end. Yeah, it sounds like an amazing weekend. In addition to the amazing writing and event that you've put together, you're also focused on raising some money for your, the be good foundation, right? Yeah, exactly. And I'm, you know, private item has always been a fundraising ride and I've always partnered with sorry, I can hear my dog bark panel here. That's Gracie. So private Idaho has always been a fundraising ride since you're number one. And my goal really was to give back to bike charities that I feel really strongly about and I wanted to do that on a local, national and global scale. And so locally we have combined, we have partnered with our wood river trails coalition, which, you know, takes care of our trails here and our local Idaho, Idaho high school cycling league. So those are our local partners nationally, people for bikes, which if you don't know, they do the hard work. With the government to maintain transportation funding for bikes and pedestrian and you know, non-motorized transportation support around, you know, the U S and then globally the world bicycle relief, which, which helps provide bikes for people in Africa to make their lives easier to get to school, get to market. And so from year number one, I've always partnered with those groups. Last year I was able to officially launch my foundation called the be good foundation and the be good mission statement, you know, it was the impetus for, it was the ride I did down the whole human trail to find the place where my dad's plane was shot down and I came back from that ride realizing I could use my bike for a bigger purpose. And so I launched the be good foundation in his name because it is how my dad signed all of the letters home from the Vietnam war that he wrote to us. And so I felt like he was giving me a message and I was able to officially launch the foundation last year. And the mission statement really is to use the bike as a catalyst for empowerment, healing evolution. And so I have kind of three main categories that I work under. One is clearing unexploded ordinance in Laos along the [inaudible] trail and the bombs that are still left there from the Vietnam war. And so every year I do a big fundraising ride over there and do a lot of work to clear those bombs. And second big mission is to provide bike access for people from Idaho to Africa. And that's where private Idaho falls in, is putting bikes in more people's hands under their legs. And, and you know, whether they're using a bike in Africa to get to school or whether a kid is using a bike to with the high school cycling league to find confidence and learn who they are or, you know, or you're riding with me, I'm in private Idaho. And so, so that's the second big mission. And then the third big mission of the be good is protecting public lands and the spaces where we want to all ride. And I honestly believe that nature is therapy for people and if we don't protect these public spaces you know, one, we don't have anywhere to ride our bikes, but I also feel like our sort of emotional health is really tied to open spaces. And so that's what the be good, excuse me. That's what the be good foundation is about. And it's so cool to see how many people come together during private Idaho and year round. Actually people are realizing that you and me and a lot of us really do need that tool. It's a simple two wheeled machine. That really does do a lot more than just make us physically strong. Yeah, absolutely. I think in this time where this year where we've all experienced personal and municipal restrictions around our time and where we can go, it's become all the more important and all the more kind of valued. When you're able to get out there and ride amongst all this turmoil in the world, you can just free yourself. Do you, as you said before, when you get over that first mountain pass and you just feel like you're in this remote area, it's so invigorating and revitalizing for your soul. Yes, it is. I know. And it's like, it's hard as that Hill is. It does. It's like an entry, you know, you work super hard physically to get up the top of trail Creek and then you're just like, okay, you know, and you get this downhill on this breath of fresh air and like no buildings, no cell phone and it is an entry into another place. And hopefully people can mimic that in their backyard, on their trainer indoors, you know, with some visualization. But I do believe we all need to get to that sort of physical and emotional place on a pretty regular basis. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that we, going back to the first part of our conversation, the gravel bike is this great enabler. I've always been surprised, you know, even in a, you know, 15 miles North of San Francisco where I live, if I put a little bit of effort in, I can be riding completely by myself and see no one. And that is just such a gift. That's really, it is a gift. It's really special. Yeah. Well, Rebecca, thanks so much for giving us an overview of Rebecca's private Idaho. I will put a link to the website and registration and hopefully people can hustle over and still at least get a slot in the final day event. Yeah, there is space and the tater tot, the French fry and the baked potato right now. So hopefully I'm, yeah, people go in and sign up and I really look forward to hosting you and everybody else in my hometown in September. Right on. Thanks Rebecca. Absolutely be good.
This week on the podcast we talk with Coach, Frank Overton of FasCat Coaching about gravel training and racing. FasCat supports both elite and recreational athletics in achieving goals both big and small. Remember #FTP. Sponsored by: Cycle Oregon Support the Podcast: Buy me a coffee Automated Transcript, please excuse the errors. Frank, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Craig. Pleasure to be here. Right on. We always start off by learning a little bit more about the cycling background of our guests and how they first came to riding, drop our bikes off road. So how'd you get started? In 1995, I graduated in college and I got a job within three weeks of graduating. I came home from work the first day, five o'clock, and I sat on the couch and like ate chips and watch TV, woke up the next day, said I'm not doing that again. And I played tennis in high school and college and you know, like NCAA, all that and you need two people to play tennis. So when I got to a new town, a new job came home that second day and I didn't have anyone or know anyone to play tennis with. So I had a mountain bike that I use for commuting and I wrote it around the neighborhood and the neighborhood rods. I started to go a little bit further away, a little bit further away and it was all on pavement. And I actually was riding on the sidewalk until someone yelled at me. And then I started riding on the road and you know, 30 minutes turned into 45 turned into 60. And then I rode over to a bike shop and said, where are the trails? And cause it was a mountain bike. And lo and behold, one of the guys that I went to college with own the bike shop and he, he took me under his wing a little bit enough to like say, Hey man, you need to get a helmet and here you need to get these, these shoes. But anyway, this is in Winston Salem, North Carolina. And I started riding in the woods after work and loved it and that, that, that's how I got started. I E. The other way I got started, sorry to be long winded right off the bat is when I was 11 and 12, I would come home from school and my parents, you know, I would go out in the neighborhood and play, this is before phones and everything. I was a free range kid and I had friends from school that lived in different neighborhoods and I had a lot of friends in my neighborhood that we would all play. And I had this like, I don't know, like a Sears 10 speed bike that my parents had bought me and I started riding that to neighborhoods other than my own afterschool to go play like basketball and, and, and like, you know, pick up flag football. And my parents would always let me go wherever I wanted to on, they didn't even know how far I was going. So the bike was a lot, a lot of freedom for me to go rod to different neighborhoods to, you know, do other sports. So that slippery and love of just peddling around the neighborhood ultimately led you to racing mountain bikes and road bikes, right? I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah. You know, because you've done it as a kid and then you start doing it for exercise after, you know, in your adult life. I got started in mountain biking later in life. You know, I didn't do it in high school. This is before Nika and that, and I didn't do it in college. So back to the woods and Winston Salem and my friend did that bike shop, you know, it went back like the second time and he's like, Hey, you know, you should come and race with us. And you know, it's like, yeah, let's do it. And he was an expert mountain biker and I was a beginner and he said, okay, you can, you can rod with us, you can get a ride with us. And I wasn't gonna go to the race by myself cause I didn't even know where to go or what to do. But he was leaving at 8:00 AM for the like Cunningham expert race and he's like, well, you got to do this one if you go with us, cause like my race, the beginner race was like later in the day, but I wasn't cold by myself. So I kind of like just dove right in and you know, trial by fire and I was hooked. I loved it. And, you know, I kept doing it and it just kinda yeah, blew up from there. And then ultimately you raced semi-pro on the mountain bike and cat one on the road. That's right. Yeah. Fast forward, whatever, six to seven years. Raced for the Schwind homegrown grassroots team. Raced for specialized Nantucket nectars for a year. And and then the Richie grassroots Mount bike team in 2002 and I broke my hand at the Northern national and Alpine Valley. It's the same place where Stevie Ray barn's helicopter crashed. And I like, I was like pre-writing the course. I was like in the best shape of my life. I was going to use that race to get my pro upgrade. And lo and behold, you know, just stupid crash riding in the woods in a, put my hand, right on a baby head rock and just folded over the metacarpals and you know, so I couldn't race, but I mean, like really good shape. And I, I use this expression with my athletes, you know, my legs were not broken and got on the trainer and you know, this is like right around, you know, I'd always done road racing and crits, you know, for training in between the, the mountain bike races, the Northern national circuit and like the courts now bike series in, in Colorado, the cross country series. And this is also right around during the Lance wave when road racing was cool. Kind of like the way gravel is now. I mean it was the thing to do. It's like what all the mountain bikers are getting into. Cause it was just, you know, awesome. And there was a lot of opportunities. So I went to super week that year at with a broken hand because I could put my, my phone around the ski lever and I can still race. I mean I was like in really good shape. I couldn't wrap my hand around the bar, but I could, you know, pulled the right STI lever with my thumb. So I go to super weak, you know, race from two weeks in a row. Love it, come back home. And then I just drove myself out to the cascade bicycle race in Oregon. Loved it. And you know, I didn't really do that well, but I, and I can hold my own in the pro one, two field. So in 2002, the Mount bike sponsorship dried up and prior to that it was like gravy train. I mean, you know, they were giving people like me cash money and two bikes and you know, all the equipment we needed, but after nine 11 and the.com boom. And the combination of the Lance wave there wasn't as many opportunities. I really didn't have a team for 2003, so I decided to race on the road. I mean, it's the same thing that gravel racers are doing now, just different disciplines. So I I turned to race and on the road in 2003, you know, did a, you know, a lot of the NRC counter events, Redlands and Salono, central Valley classic he LA cascade obviously super week. Oh, it was called dairy, dairy land all those races. And it was during that time. What else? Oh, in 2002 also because of the.com boom. And nine 11, I lost my job is in biotechnology. Biotechnology was incredibly volatile back then and most of the companies that I worked for were startups. I was like employee number 12. It's the longest running company I worked at. But the market tanked and funding dried up and layoffs happened. And one thing I realized in biotech is every time you go to a new company, it takes about six months to learn new technology. And the other thing I learned was there's two types of people in biotechnology, those with their PhD and those without, and I was without, because I had chosen to ride my bike a lot more in life than to spend time in the lab, in the, in the library. And so I realized I needed to do something different. And I decided, I I was, that's when I got into coaching in 2002 I was in between biotechnology jobs. I was training full time to be a road racer, try to be a professional level road racer. And yeah, that's when I got the help of a friend. I built a website, wrote some training tips, came up with the logo and the name and yeah, that's when it all got, yeah, that's when fast cat coaching got started. And had you gotten some coaching previously in any of the sort of semi-pro and pro racing you were doing? Oh yeah, absolutely. I was coached by a fellow by the name of Dave Morris. Hi day. Shout out Dave was a exercise physiologist. He worked on project 96 for any of the old timers out there. Project 96 was the title of the project given to basically the team charged with winning gold medals at the Atlanta 1996 Olympic games. And he worked down in Colorado Springs in the human performance lavatory and he, you know, day was one of the first coaches. He's a peer of Chris Carmichael and Dean Golich from, from that air. And he had written a book, I think the name of it was like racers ready anyway, Gaye was coaching some people in, in, in 98. I, I like trained as hard as I could and I didn't really get any better at the end of that season. I was like, I gotta hire a coach and man I had to like call around. I mean this is like I called Dean Crandall who put me in touch with Dean Golis. She said he was too busy and that was back when in coaching where you had to like, you had to like be good enough to be coached for a coach to take you on. And I was like a no name but Dave was trying to make some money and he had an affordable coaching and I was coached by day for like four years and went from a sport class, Mount biker, you know, all the way up to like count one, you know, borderline professional mountain bike level. Yeah, it's interesting you hear that story a lot when people just have the raw talent and get it organized by a coach to kind of progress to that next level. So that's an interesting tale of how you came to founding fast cat. I should note, as I mentioned in the intro that you guys have been producing a really great podcast. How long has it been a couple of years on that. Oh thanks. It has been 84 episodes and may of 2018 so little over. Let's see. Hey, we're coming up on two years here. This may. That's awesome. I think you know what's, what's interesting to me is you guys put out such depth of information on your site and the, it's sort of a lot of, it's freely available, lot of great plans out there and obviously you guys offer customized coaching. A couple of the episodes that really kind of grabbed hold of me and I got a ton of questions for you about a variety of subjects, but there, there was the concept of winning in the supermarket and winning in the kitchen. That really resonated with me as someone who feels like he consistently fails in those departments. Can you talk about just a touch on, on that philosophy and where you guys are coming from with that? Absolutely. Well and when I hired Dave is my coach, you know, we did a one season 98, 99 completely didn't even pay attention to nutrition. In fact, I was losing in the grocery store. I was losing in the, in the kitchen and you know, one day in 1999, you know, Dave introduced the concept of power to weight ratio to me. And then, you know, I talked to some of my teammates and I, and I looked around and you know, it turns out power to weight ratios, one of the greatest determinants of performance in the type of racing that I was doing, which was now biking, which was a lot of climbing. And to you know, go up these Hills faster, you had to weigh less. And you know, so I started paying attention to my nutrition and, and in October of I guess that was like 2000, I started you know, eat more salads, more vegetables. You know, I still had no clue what I was doing. You know, this is 20 years ago. But I, but back then I was, you know, you're young you know, you're, you produce, you know, your endocrine system is still, you know, you know, firing away and it's really easy to lose weight as like, you know, a 28, 30 year old compared to when you're 48 or, you know, in your fifties when your Intercom system has slowed down tremendously. And so you know, I got really skinny and got really fast and that's how I upgraded up to, you know, be in a semi-pro and a cat one. And I really didn't make that much more power. I mean, I got more powerful, but really the biggest, the, you know, the huge leap that I took was from losing weight. And so that's the impetus behind winning in the kitchen. It's super important and really just comes down to a lot of guys think they can just ride more and eat less and that's what you can do in your 20s. But that is not the path to longterm sustainable success. You know, when you're a masters athlete, you in your thirties, maybe you can kind of get away from it or again, account and blend the two. But you know, for many years it was the Eddie Murks rod more eat less. But really 80% of weight loss comes from healthy food choices that emanate from the kitchen that's winning in the kitchen. And really 20% of weight loss is you know, just from riding more like, you know, rotting a ton of hours, like when you can do when you're in your 20s. So it really just comes down to eating more vegetables, eating more fruits you know, staying away from added sugar partially hydrogenated fat, saturated fat, you know, it's really simple. One of my teammates from back in the day, the Richie team, he had a term that I adopted. He said there's two types of foods. There's the go fast Khan and there's the go slow con. And I guarantee you everyone listening right now can put a label on either. And so really it's just paying attention to the go fast foods and you know, going to the grocery store, choosing those foods and you know, trying to wait in the kitchen and it's a healthy lifestyle. And I can go on and on and on about that cause we do in our podcast. Yeah. No I encourage people to go back and listen to those episodes of your podcast cause I found it interesting. I think it's pretty easy for us as kind of middle-aged athletes, masters athletes to look around and think about what we're eating and realize the percentage of go slow foods to go fast foods is highly skewed in the go slow category. And you know, you know, clearly I think we need to acknowledge that, you know, most of, most of the gravel athletes that are listening to this, I suspect are out there for the adventure. They're taxing their bodies, they're going for these big events like dirty Kanza. But at the same token, you know, they're not trying to be a skeleton, Chris Froome type athlete. It's just not important to them. It's important for them to get to the finish line. So there's, you know, there's clearly some balance there of, of enjoying life, but also, you know, making those choices that all enable you to be more efficient on the bike and have more success at these long distance events. That's right. And success at the event comes from the second part of the winning and the kitchen philosophy and approach is you got to fuel your workouts and fuel your, your long distance rides. And you know, back then I would, you know, put five you know, gels in my pocket and you know, suck those down every 30 minutes. But nowadays, you know, we'd talk about gels, blocks, bars, every 30 minutes we'd talk about making rice cakes from scratch, lads and Dr. Allen Lim. You know, we talk about you know, just eating well proportion meals before and after and, and, and all that in everyone that does these races, these long races, you know, where they can all, they probably want to lose five or 10 pounds. They may not want to get down to you know, 7% body fat. But you know, as you age, your, your body just instance, natural tendency to put on more, more fat and store fat and, and you know, you'd neglect that for a few years and then you're, you know, that's when you got the spare tire and when you do decide to choose more go fast foods and try to win in the kitchen is that's where this can come in. Cause we don't advocate like dieting and like, you know, restricting calories. We just advocate eating more, really just eating more fruits and vegetables and greens and, and, and making those go fast food choices. Yeah. And I think that's where I am as an athlete. It's really, I just would like to start making better choices. At the beginning of 2019 I became a vegetarian, which has helped. But I found that just being a vegetarian doesn't necessarily mean you, you make good food choices. So 2020s about kind of combining that with a little bit better choices. And you know, one of the things I struggle with, and I wanted to kind of get your opinion as as a coach is you know, as a, as a family man, as someone who works for a living, my time windows are off often outside of my control. So you know, I think about getting on a training program but then I think to myself, okay, in any given week or any given month, my long ride window may open up serendipitously. So it may be on the program that I'm supposed to be resting this week, but all of a sudden I have a five hour block of time because my wife has decided to take my son somewhere. How do you kind of work with athletes who are grappling with the challenges of time, opportunity versus training schedules? Well, I mean, the first thing that we try to do is teach and not tell. And that I would tell you as a contradict myself, I would teach you to just go for it. When you have that five hour window of opportunity, first of all go for it because that's what you, you know, need and want to do and then just figure out everything you know, downstream as far as the training plan goes. So it's, you're the type of athlete that would benefit from like a coaching relationship to be taught that. And, and, and a lot of, we, a lot of athletes are like, well, I'm not ready for that. And then so we have these training plans and in these training plans we obviously you have the long rod and we have a, a private athlete forum where we have figured out a way to kind of teach athletes if they do want have questions, just like for the, you know, the conundrum that you just presented. And it's like, how do I follow the plan but still, you know, adopt to these. And it's just really just asking the question. And, and in training peaks, you know, moving your workouts around is this simple left click, drag and drop and the software and you move like your longer OD to like a Friday instead of a Saturday or a Sunday instead of Saturday. And then you just, you know, you just work, work your way through the plant. We teach consistency. You know, we do have the hashtag FTF P which is follows up bleep in plan, which is a derivation of the velum Menotti rule number five and HTF view. We joke about that but we also use that as an opportunity to teach people good training habits and to be flexible with themselves. So like you may be coming from the, the angle, I've got to follow this plan just right. Maybe you're like a perfectionist, but really what you want to do is be flexible with yourself and just go for it and then, you know, kind of adjust your rest days around that opportunity. Right. The other thing I have is, you know, I often work in San Francisco four days a week and I commute in from mill Valley. So I've got this sort of hour long, not certainly not junk miles because I'm enjoying going through Sausalito and over the golden gate bridge, but it's not pure training. And then I have the opportunity to ride home in the evening. So, you know, there's the potential for me to be riding two hours in any one of those days. But to date it's just sort of been plot along, you know, not put any more effort in or less effort than just required by the terrain in front of me. Okay. So I have an athlete that lives in mill Valley and he works in San Francisco. So we worked that into his, his training plan. He's in di, I wouldn't say he's a die hard commuter, he just enjoys it. I mean, why don't we, do you want to, you know, sit in traffic across the golden gate bridge when you can rot across it. Super good weather. It's pleasurable. I mean, I've written across the golden gate bridge. It was scary as heck with the tourist oncoming and the cross winds. But other than that, it's a great view and a lovely way to maybe, you know, commute to and from work. What I would say to you, and this is the teaching moment is, and this, this is, I think we were corresponding by email about this. It's like what are you training for? Identified the demands and the requirements for performance in that event and then back that up to what you should be doing in your training and say you are training for like a dirty Kanza or any other gravel event out there. You gotta have a really good aerobic and endurance. You need to ride your bike a lot. You know, like the Omni podcast that we just recorded with her. She rides her bike a lot. Therefore that's why she is good at riding 200 miles and you don't have to ride your bike a lot on just one day. You just need to ride your bike a lot over time, six months. And so getting back to your commute, riding two hours a day, four to five times a week, totally fits in with trying to ride a lot over the course of six, six months in preparation from any gravel event. I mean during that time, at the very least you spend time in zone two, that's a robotic endurance increase your mitochondrial density. Yeah, that's the foundation of all gravel racing. And then I think there is a client and I don't know the name of it, but as you kind of head South from Sausalito and mill Valley and start to go up to the bridge, you can get in a like good eight to 10 minutes of like you can do tempo, you can do sweet spot, you do threshold, you can do like five minute work, a park Hill, you know, before you cross the bridge. Yeah, I mean, I mean you might just need to take like a 20 minute detour. But I did that. The athletes that I worked with, his name is Sean. We were, we were always coming up with these like custom workouts. Like, okay, you'll do like threshold work on the way to, on the way to work. But then rod zone two on the way home and then the next day run zone two to work. But on the way back, let's do this tempo. So it's just kind of getting creative. But I would say overall I'm staying consistent and trying to ride your bike a lot in a flexible manner is going to net new greater gains than, than you know, trying to do like a six hour ride. You know, once one day a week, consistency is King and I would just encourage you to commute as much as possible. Yeah. We've also got the luxury here. We can head into Tennessee Valley and actually ride the gravel pretty much all the way to the golden gate bridge and there's plenty of add on opportunities. So there's a number of people who do what's referred to around here as the dirty commute where we head off road, which is pretty, it's pretty incredible to kind of have that experience and then drop into the golden gate bridge and be downtown in the financial district for work an hour later. Makes me want to move to the Bay. I know you've enjoyed it out here, the riding, so it's not lost on me that we're blessed, but as are you in Boulder? I spent a number of years out there and I love it. There's so much fun. We are, we live in gray places. The other thing that I grapple with is and this kinda goes on with opportunism around my time windows is I, you know, I often get last minute opportunities to ride events, whether it's locally or you know, even traveling a little bit. So I struggle with kind of choosing an a event. And for me like the concept of a events is a, is almost irrelevant at the end of the day. I want to experience new gravel. I want to enjoy the gravel community wherever I am. So I was trying to think back as to in, in last year I think I did maybe four or five kind of 60 to a hundred mile events around the country and there wasn't much rhyme or reason to them. And, and to your earlier point, I did feel like all my commuting miles enabled me any structure whatsoever to kind of get to the finish line and enjoy those long events. But any, any further advice in that category of like someone who is opportunistically taking these, these event opportunities and isn't really focused on anyone in particular? Yeah, I have two answers for you that kind of parallel with each other. The first thing is I would encourage you to choose an M and a event and you may want to like, like we did a whole podcast on this a couple of years ago in the fall about choosing your a event and cause we were introducing the term a event B event, the event to our, to our listeners. And, you know, really, I think everyone knows what we were talking about, like in a event is your dirty cans and 200 or your lost and found or your crusher and the Tuscher BWR you know, mid South, you know, Steamboat, gravel, that, that sort of thing. Those are the races that you dream about, that when you are on a long run and you're wondering what you're doing in life, you, you fall back to remembering what you're training for. They're, they're the races that, that motivate you and they're fun and, and for years the crusher and the Tuscher was my a race and that's what motivated me prior to the crusher and the Tuscher. The big bear Norbert national was that those, the first mountain bike race of the year that kicked off the notice season. And that's what got me through the winter. You know, when I was, you know, lifting heavy in the gym, doing intervals, rod long, you know, that's your reason. I think Rebecca Rush calls that. What's your, why? You know, that that's, that that's the a race. But then for your B race is in kind of your spontaneous you know, nature. Well, yeah. You know, definitely go for him and, you know, participate. They, so I would call those your B race races. And the the other thing I would say, you may be like, well, I don't have any race or, you know, life doesn't really fit in with that. And then that's okay. You know, keep going you know, through your journey in gravel racing and one of these days of life or open up, you know, not be as busy. And you'd be like, Oh, I'm getting, this is my goal. I'm gonna go for it. And it may be like a, like, like last year I had an athlete do the dirty cans and 200, and he, he completed that. And then this year the rift in Iceland is his big, big goal. And that's what he lives in Pennsylvania. And he, you know, it's not the greatest weather, but you know, the, the idea of being his best in, in Iceland, you know, keeps him, keeps him going. And maybe that's for you and it's not something that I can tell you as your goal. It's something that you're going to just come up with one day or think about and, or decide upon. Am I answering your question? You are, and I mean it has posed some sort of questions for me and I, I'd been a bit hurt with a back problem throughout the winter, so it kind of had put my 2020 plans in question as to what I was excited about and what I really wanted to do. I, I'm, I'm thinking for me, Rebecca's private Idaho might be my, my sort of a race for the year and build the season around that. So now that you have an a race, someone like me, I mean, I can go to town. I mean, now we have a timeframe ripping, you know, that's labor day. That's where we have March, April, may, June, July, August at six months away, 24 weeks, you know, now, now from someone like me, it's like, okay, we should do this, this and this. To prepare you have the opportunity to build your base. Like we, you know, from commuting here, you don't want to neglect interval training, you know, threshold, you know, there is a 20 minute climb that starts off, Rebecca is private auto course. And after that climb, there's a big selection. It's a bunch of chunky gravel after that. So your power to weight ratios is big and important and you want to work on your threshold power to get over that climb in the best possible group and selection and time. And so, you know, being in mill Valley you have awesome 20 minute climb. So then you can structure your training going up and down Mount Tam and the Alpine dam and yeah, so then, but it also helps you peer dyes, your motivation. And we always say, you know, training for these races is kinda like a crescendo and, and piano and you know, you start off small and gradually get louder and louder and louder as you get you know, towards the Rebecca's date. Yeah. And I think that's a good schedule for me this year. Just because sort of coming off this back injury, I want to make sure I'm healthy before I'm really firing and working too hard. What I appreciated on your site in addition to all the great video and podcast content was that you did have specific training plans that people can purchase for specific events. I thought that that was really cool when someone's getting into the plan and let's say for example, they, they don't actually have power on their bike. How do, how do you begin that process of setting whatever kind of measurement or milestone you need to set at the beginning of the process? Yeah, so we get this question a lot. I do I need a power meter to follow your plan? The answer is no. All of our plans are zone based. So zone two, you can do a zone two training a by feel a rate of perceived exertion. You can do it by heart rate using a heart rate monitor and that's relatively affordable. I think you can get like a wahoo ticker for $50 and that's like the top of the line. And so hurray based training is tremendous. It's very, very good. And then of course there's the power meter and you can get a power meter for $350. I think stages has some nice affordable options there. One of their slogans is the power meter for every day. The everyday cyclist, not necessarily, you know, world tour level, but anyway, so you have zones and the training plan teaches you how to use the zones. On the second day of a lot of our training plans, we'll have you perform a very simple and extremely effective task. We call it a field test. You do it out in the field. You don't need a lab, you don't need, you know, lactate or [inaudible] and, and you can do it with zero technology, which some of our athletes do. I learned this from Alan Lamb when he was working with some of the world tour and guys. But basically you go to a Hill and you go up at as fast as you can for 20 minutes, and when the clock strikes 20 minutes, you'd like put an X down on the pavement or the client put a rock or you notice which mailbox you're next to or treat. And then you go off and you do some training. You went in the kitchen, you weigh less, you, you know, you get more powerful and you increase your numerator and decrease your denominator. Power to weight ratio is, is better. And then you go back to that same client and you go up it just as hard and then you measure how much further you got past that log or X or mailbox and you got on a previous time. And so that's like the super low tech way. And we teach athletes, you know, how to, how to do zone based training and, and really, you know, suites by very good. With power meter or heart rate zone two, you can do it. Rate of perceived exertion. VO two max threshold zone six. Really, that's just as hard as you can. You don't need a power meter or a heart monitor to do that style of training. It sure is nice to, to measure it and look at it afterwards. The analysis that, that piece, The main attraction for a power meter from me would be just kind of getting that satisfaction is seeing some numbers move. The other thing I see referenced a lot in your plans and conversations is this concept of sweet spot. What, what exactly you're referring to there. That's so sweet. Spot is a it's a zone. It's a style of training. It is a percentage of your functional threshold power, which is another fancy pocket protector term for your threshold, which is why I was just describing you find in a, in a 20 minute field test, it's technically it's 84 to 97% of your FTP and it is the place in your physiology where the stress is at a sweet spot in relation to the, the, the strain. And I think I misspoke on that. It's where the benefits of that work physiologically are in proportion with the, the physiological costs, like the, you know, like when you go do a hard hard ride, you get benefits from it, but then you're like, you know, you're tired, your muscles are sore, you know, and you can't really ride that fast for a couple of days afterwards. That's the strain and the benefit is what you happened, you know, during that hard ride. But sweet-spot training is asking athletes to not go as hard as they can and to be able to do a lot of that training for a less physiological amount of stress. And that enables them to get what we've, you know, kind of like, I guess like the slogan of sweet spot, more bang for your buck. And so it's, you get more physiological benefits than by rotting in zone two. But you, and then you benefit more than doing full-on threshold training. So that, that's what she means by training is I developed sweet-spot training in 2003 to 2005 with a group of coaches and sports scientists. People like dr Andy Coggin Hunter Allen, who I listened to your podcast, that was really good. And it, you know, just like some other coaches like John virtual, Adam Meyerson Olympic silver medalist Brian Walton was in this group and you know, this is before all this that was our empower based technology and was unknown. There was no technology or sports science behind it. And we figured it out. And one of the things that came out of that was sweet-spot training. We were using sweet-spot training to build big aerobic engines to help us go fast. We were all using our own data and developing our own training methods to validate this performance manager chart that is a big piece of the training peak software now. And yeah, so I wrote about it in 2005 on a website called Pez cycling news, introduced it to the world. And I started prescribing sweet-spot trained to all the athletes that I coached, guys like Tom Zirbel and Alison powers. Ted King did a lot of sweet spot training. I coached him back then. You know, Frank Pitt, you know, a lot, a lot, a lot of athletes and they got really fast from it. And that's kind of how I made a name for myself when I was coming up in the coaching world. Awesome. Awesome. Well, you know, for the listener, again, I encourage you to check out Frank's podcast and check out his website cause there's a ton of backstory to everything we've been talking about today. I know you've given me a lot to think about for 2020 and I think this would be a really good year for me to kind of buckle down and just try to add some structure to my gravel cycling as I kind of enter maybe my third or fourth year doing the gravel thing. So Frank, thanks so much for all the great content you're putting out and for the time today. I appreciate it. Oh, you're quite welcome. And I would say if you have any further questions, feel free to ask me. I love helping people. I mean that's kinda like our mission. That's one of the joys of being in the coaching realm as we get to help people with something that they're passionate about, just like us, which is cycling and nowadays a lot of gravel and long distance riding. So yeah. It's a dream dream come true to be able to do this for a living. Yeah, I bet. And I think it's, again, this great takeaways from this podcast, anybody listening is if you're tackling your first gravel event or maybe your first kind of ultra distance event like DK 200, I think there's a lot of these gains that can maybe be made very simply, if you can kind of step back and think about it because they are super taxing these events in a way that just kind of jumping into a local 45 minute long crit never taxes the body. That's right. I mean, crits, you can fake, but I'm a gravel race. You cannot. And being prepared for these gravel races is just so fun. And, and having, you know, six months of work culminate and having a great ride, that's, that's a rewarding experience. And, and I also know this from experience, personal experience, you know, doing a a hundred mile or challenging gravel event under-prepared. That's not fun. And we're doing this for fun. And you know, what we always say is as a fast is funner. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks again, Frank. You're welcome, Craig. Thank you again for having me on.
In part four of our week-long series on how law students are coping with the changes in remote learning, I talk with second-year law student Kanza Khan. Kanza's story is a bit different than the previous episodes in that MSU's grading is not entirely pass/fail, and her classes continued to follow a fairly strict schedule to mimic the normal class lecture process. In addition, there's been a twist to her plans for her summer work. It just proves that this pandemic effects law students in many different ways. Remember, we may all be In Seclusion, but we're in this together. Host: Greg Lambert (@glambert) Producer: Janice Anderson Artwork: Dean Lambert Music: Jerry David DeCicca Twitter: @InSeclusionPod --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/inseclusion/message
This week we speak with Dean Stanton from Canada's Triple Crown of Gravel, three great events across British Columbia. Triple Crown of Gravel Instagram Triple Crown of Gravel Website This week's episode is brought to you by Cycle Oregon. Please mention 'TGR' during any registration for a special item. Automated transcription, please forgive typos. Dean, welcome to the show. Great. Thanks. Good to be here. Yeah. Well I'm really excited to have you on the show. I know you producing three events at least up there this year in the gravel community, but first we always like to get started by learning a little bit more about your background as a cyclist and how ultimately you got into the arduous task of event production. Well it's a weird and twisted past for that. I started off mainly in triathlons in high school and became an elite professional from 87 to 99. And before I sort of quit racing, I got into coaching at about 97 and then about 2004 I thought, you know, Hey, I've done all these races and helped out and done all this. I'll put on a triathlon and I had no idea what I was doing and to be honest, it shouldn't have been putting one on but did it and sorta went through that and did a bunch of bike races or sorry, no triathlons and then some running races. And then I've always really wanted to put on a bike race and some bike races. And then, you know, at that time around 2009, 2010 the gravel and sorry the grand fondos were sort of taking off. And then when I looked at the costs of production and everything, I was just like no, this isn't gonna work. So 2013 I was looking at you know, what was going on down in the States and already, you know, dirty Kanza was on the radar and I was like, that's pretty cool. So I went down and did one in the rate race in the States on a, on a cross bike and started writing more gravel at year anyways and then said, you know what, I'm going to put on the kettle medal. And we did. And like 80 people showed up or something. It wasn't very good. And you know, in terms of numbers, but you know, it was great and everybody really enjoyed it. And I am myself ride gravel a lot cause I really enjoy not having the cars and being more in nature. It's kind of a hybrid between say road riding and mountain biking. Cause I think you need some of the mountain bike skills that helps. But it's just, you know, but it's a little bit more easier than mountain biking in some respects in terms of the descending and the assets aren't nearly as steep usually. But anyways, I really enjoy it. I, it's something I've really do more and more of. Nice. And was that first cuddle metal, was that back in 2014 then? Correct. Yeah. I'm curious, you made mention, and I, I like to have takeaways for other event organizers. You made mention that you thought the cost of production of a grand Fondo on the road was more expensive than a gravel event. Was that from some sort of practical perspective like road closures and things like that? Well I don't, I'm not sure how things work in the States, but in Canada they seem to love, you know, having everything done to the nth degree. So, you know, yeah, it's traffic management plans, police you know, traffic control people. It's, it's, it's prohibitively expensive to degree to shut any roads down and it gets very, very expensive, very fast. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So that's sort of why I was like, ah, no, not doing it. Yeah. So you're there in the heart bed of mountain biking up in British Columbia. So that first event was the kettle medal. And I know at this point you've expanded to having three gravel events on the calendar, is that right? Correct. I sort of that and that's funny cause that sort of grew organically as well as that. I did kettle metal for a couple of years and then I looked on the Island and I was over there anyways. I'm think of Island, which is pretty big Island. And I just was like, I'm going to go and check out some gravel rides. And I just, I realized that there was a real old railway line there as well. And then just worked into a an event over there as well. And that's, we're going now into our fourth year for, I'm the couch and crusher, which is out of Lake Cowichan, which is, it's phenomenal. Some of the riding on the islands as I think some of the best writing in terms of gravel on NBC. I mean, unfortunately most of it seems to be on private property. But yeah, it's, it's really good writing over there And you, are you able to get permission for the event day to get on that private property? Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's just a few more steps to go through, but yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really good stuff over there. It's really, it's really nice. I mean, one of the challenges in BC, and I'm not sure you have this in California other places, is a lot of the terrain is very steep, so it's very difficult at times to find a sort of circular route on gravel. A lot of them are sort of like a roots of trees in that there's a main road and then it'll go off and branch up a super steep room and it'll be dead end. And then you get to come back down and, and get to go. So the nice thing about Vancouver Island is it's a lot less steep terrain. So there's a lot more sort of rows that all link up. Whereas other places like Squamish, it's a little bit more difficult than again, most of the roads are all built for logging and logging access. So their forest service roads. Yeah. No, I think that's common for any coastal areas. Certainly my neck of the woods. You can't, you can't go 10 miles without going a thousand feet of climbing and you've got to pick your roots wisely. Yeah. So it, you know, and I'm, I'm, I mean I've done some of the rides and I'm just amazed at how these trucks were getting up and down these Hills with logs, bro. You know, like a load of log. I'm just like, no, blows me away cause I'm like, this is so steep. Yeah. And then the third event is called what? Well, the third event we did for two years was the cow. So the golden ears, gravel Fondo, which was a bit challenging in that one of the cool areas about pit Meadows is sort of called near to the Tri-City area of lower mainland of Vancouver, greater Vancouver. And it has all these dikes in a, technically a lot of that area is underwater, like under sea level, but they have all these dikes that you kind of link up. It just, it became very difficult to train, you know, go through the permitting process on that because I had either nine or 10 jurisdictions I had to go through, you know, and then I'm doing Squamish and I have four or three. It's, it's so much easier. So, so I just kind of went, you know it's good writing and good training, but trying to put on an event on there was really challenging. And so over the last year, year and a half, I was going up to Squamish to do some gravel rides and I said, you know what, we're just gonna move it next year. And that's what we're doing right now. And the numbers are pretty strong and we're pretty excited about it, so yeah. Great. And that one's called the sea to sky, is that right? Yeah, the, the, yeah, so in the, I got that name from basically the sea to sky highway, but that's called the sea to sky corridor. It's kind of like, it's pretty steep terrain and I'm not really sure even how they made that road way back in the 50s from Vancouver to school. And we still Whistler and wish there's Whistler's like a world-class resort. It was skiing, but it's also a major mountain biking downhilling in the summer. But that road is just like, I'm trying to remember the name. There's that marathon on the Pacific coast of California that goes through the redwoods and all that stuff. And it's kind of similar to that is very steep terrain. So On the way to Whistler previous times, and actually up on some fire roads in Squamish, but I was up in a van with a full suspension bike and a full face helmet ready to go downhill. Yeah. So very different. Yeah. Yeah. I want to get into some of the details in terms of elevation and the type of terrain for the three different events. But one of the things that jumped out at me on the website was you actually have divisions for two and four person teams, which I haven't seen in a lot of gravel events. Can you talk about, you know, how that works from a practical perspective and you know, what your intention was in, in adding those event categories. Well I, I kind of really liked the team atmosphere and then I also thought it would be interesting for people to bring out other buddies and friends to do their event with them instead of just all doing it singly. So I thought it'd be really cool to sort of do a team of two or team before, you know, mixed or whatever. And then you give them a slight discount so that, you know, you're encouraging more teams and you know, we, we give out, you know, prizes to the top team, to top team of Ford and we also have a triple crown prizing for all three events. The end of the season at the end last event and I, I I just really liked the idea of it. Yeah, I mean it's funny that I sort of did that second or third year and we've been doing it ever since and yeah, I guess now that you mentioned it, I haven't seen this in a lot of other events. Yeah, I think it's, I mean I think it's a very interesting dynamic, both from a, from a race organizer perspective, obviously it encourages people very specifically to bring a buddy with them, but also from a racing perspective, having done team events in the past and myself both single day and multi day, it does add a different dynamic because you're trying to get your teammate across as fast as you can and you're going to have different skillsets. I imagine in a gravel event, you know, you may have someone who's a good roller on the flat terrain really coming to the front and dragging their teammate along, whereas you know, their teammate may have other skillsets. It does, I think, create some interesting mentality during the race, which is probably quite fun to race as a team. Yeah, I mean that's just what we're trying to encourage is just more people to come out, more people to do it as a team, you know, it's combined times. So it's like two people, it'd be the two times together and that that's so thus it, it doesn't make sense for one person to be super fast and the other person it takes longer, you know, because he has, you're adding the times together anyways for the results. So you might as well just try and like you said, both write together and cheer each other on and push each other for, you know, better finish. And you mentioned it casually that you've kind of cast the three events under this [inaudible] of the triple crown of gravel and you're actually tracking results across three events and providing, you know, accolades or awards at the end of all three events, right? Yep, that's correct. Yep. Yeah. Pretty cool. So let's get into some of the, some of the terrain in each of the three events and curious to kind of get your perspective, if you would expect given unlimited resources, if people would change bikes or tires or, or different things about the bikes between the three events or if it's, if it's similar enough that, you know, it's kinda run the same tires in each event. In terms of the terrain, it's quite different. As I said before, I mean Squamish is somewhat flat. It's got some Hills in it, but nothing major over the long course of the full Fondo, which we were in Columbia is up here. It's about a hundred kilometers also because it's an April 25th and I don't think people are hoping to do 150, 200 kilometers fairly early in the season. So I'm trying to make sure it's not too long for people. It's challenging but not over challenging. But there's definitely some climbs as you get closer to the turnaround area. And the gravel is mostly fairly hard pack. Yeah, in similar to the Island, but a kettle metal has a couple of sections where it's a bit Sandy or softer. So I would suggest going with a slightly wider tire with lower pressures for that one. Although I mean it really depends, right? I mean it depends how big you are, how much you weigh, what kind of bike you're riding. You know, it's interesting, we, we, we started tracking with our registration, what people are doing, what their bikes they're riding, what size tires they're writing. These are all questions we ask at registration and sort of attract that last year and have a lot of interesting stats on. When we first started this seven years ago, I didn't have the stats, but you know, through seeing what people were doing, the vast majority were on mountain bikes. And then there was a few on cross bikes and you know, seven years ago there wasn't even gravel bikes. So it was mostly that. And now the vast majority are 700. See bikes split between, you know, gravel and cyclocross, and then there's six 50 B gravel bikes. But they're not, there's not as many. Like I would say on our stats, over 75% are gravel or 700 see in less than 25% or six 50 [inaudible]. And then one of the other interesting things about mountain biking is we thought there'd be a lot more people in 20 Niners and there's hardly any, it's only like four and a half, 5% of the 27% that are mountain bikes, the vast majority are 26 inch or six 50 [inaudible]. And are you tracking the tire width the people are proposing they're going to ride on? Yeah. Yeah, we, we ask them, you know, is it 26 inch, six 50 [inaudible] 29 incher and then hybrid bikes, we just assume that 700 seen road bikes. So we have about 4% rode bikes to try and attempt it on that. Even though on a lot of them you're very limited on what size you can go. And then hybrid bikes, you know, you can usually get a bitF , you know, wider. Most of the people in hydro bikes and mountain bikes are usually doing the 50K or the medio size fondos in is the longer distances. Most of them were on cross bikes and ugravel bikes. And then there is some people, a few on mountain bikes. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if your proportions of 700 C versus six 50 B being 75 25% are pretty common around the country. I find that six 50 it's a little bit out of the norm. It's certainly not the majority, majority of what I see as well. So that's, that's not too surprising over there. And the other thing is, is, you know, I've noticed that it seemed like there's a tendency for people to try to go with one buy instead of to buy. But I've, I've noticed that most of the people in our long course on gravel or on to buy instead of one by, and it seems like more six 50 [inaudible] have of one buy in most of the 700 seat or two by, but I mean it's sort of open on that. Yeah, no, I think you're probably right. I think this six 50 [inaudible] wheel set probably is attractive to someone who has experienced mountain biking. Therefore they probably have experience running one by Sarah. It kind of tracks and correlates together, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean the thing that I've noticed riding my gravel bike as opposed to my mountain bike in which is, is just that if you're on a one by, I feel like you're going to run out of gears a bit in certain places in some of our courses cause you're not going to have those tighter steps, but also the ability to go into a big chain ring and just go a bit faster and some of the downhills if that's what you want to do. But it just seems a bit limiting to me. But Yeah, it's all, it's all a personal choice here in the gravel world for sure. Yeah. So Dean, can you let us know what the dates are for each event and when registration's open. Okay. well registration is all open for all of them. As of right now, they've all been open as of early December kettle met and sorry for start off, the first one, sea to sky gravel. Fondo is on Saturday, April 25th and it's in a Squamish Valley. And the next one is the couch and crusher on June 7th on thanker Island in Lake chin. And the third one of the triple crown is the kettle medal on September 26th Penticton to Colona. You have the logistics on that one is a bit interesting in terms of all my other events that sort of same start, finish that one. To be honest, the first year or two was a bit of a logistical nightmare trying to figure out how to have a start and finish in two different locations that are, you know, 180 kilometers, a hundred kilometers apart and having to bus people in, truck people in a truck, all the bicycles and yeah, that, that, that was a bit challenging, but we've kind of got it pretty small sorted now. But yeah, that was trying to figure out, Nick people have to check in on the Friday to load their bikes into the, you know, semi trailer to, to drive it down Friday night so that we unload Saturday morning so they can start the race. Cause we didn't want to load and unload in the morning. It just is too, too much time consuming. So it's easier to just unload, get people, get on their bikes. And then we shuttle people from Penticton, this start to the people doing the media to shoot Lake. And then from shoot Lake they ride down. And that, that, I don't know if you've ever been to Penticton or Colona the interior, but it's kind of an interesting area and that you think of BC and you think of monster trees and all that kind of stuff. But it's very different. It's kind of like Napa Valley North in a way. It's, but more in different because it's got really big lakes and like huge lakes. It's got you know, very dry, warm terrain. There's orchards, there's wineries, there's this old train. So it's, it's very scenic. Very beautiful. And it's yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. Penticton is gorgeous. I have been up there for iron man many years ago and it's certainly a place where, you know, you could bring your family up for a vacation and everybody in the household going to find something to do. It's, it's great. There's, I just as you said that the lakes are amazing and the mountains have a slightly different character than other parts of BC, so I'm not surprised it's a popular event for you. Yeah, and I mean I, that was our inception, you know, first event, but I just, I feel like it's, it's just a really awesome way to tee in this season for us, for our triple crown. And you know, it's just, Oh, we get a lot of people in from Alberta because there's sort of, it gets colder there earlier than Vancouver and BC and they're sort of ending, their season is September eight, late September. So it's kind of a good sort of end to finish for us. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes to the registration site and make sure people take a look at that. And I wish you the best of luck this season. I can't wait to hear more about it at the end of the year. Great. Okay. Thank you.
It's taken a turn, Seb and Sam have a chat whilst on rollers, third times a charm
Everyone just keeps chillin in the Greenroom! Today we have Spencer and Mr. David Palan talking about all the typical greenroom stuff. Boston, Kanza, tire choice, etc. You won't want to miss it!
A discussion with Redshift Sports co-founder, Stephen Ahnert about the Shockstop gravel suspension stems and other products. Redshift Sports Instagram Redshift Sports Website Automated Transcription, Please excuse the typos. Hello everyone and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast I've invited Stephen Ahnert from Redshift sports on to talk about the shockstop STEM and their forthcoming suspension seatpost. I've been riding the STEM for about a month now and the results have been unexpected, so I can't wait to have the conversation with Stephen about some of the design and performance principles behind the STEM. Additionally, I've been intrigued by the notion of how reducing fatigue in long rides can affect performance. If you're going to be out there for 1214 hours in event like dirty Kanza or some of the other long distance gravel events, how does making your body feel better affect your ability to ride harder and longer? I think it's really fascinating when we talk about suspension in that light and particularly a suspension STEM as it's something that you can throw on and off quite easily to adapt your bicycle to a particular ride. So with that, let's jump right in. Stephen, welcome to the show. Thanks. It's great to be here. Right on. Could we start off by talking a little bit more about your background and since we're going to be digging into your company and your product, in addition to kind of your cycling background and how you found gravel, let's talk a little bit about your professional background. Yeah, so I'm a mechanical engineer by training. And so are the two other cofounders of Redshift, Scott Poff and Eric Debrune. Eric and I actually met in college studying mechanical engineering. And we did our kind of senior thesis project together. We built a pool playing robots that would kind of move around a pool table and had pool shots. So that was pretty cool. And then Eric actually knew Scott from high school and they kind of linked up after, after college. And then Eric Scott and I co founded a small company doing mechanical engineering consulting work for other companies. So we were doing product development analysis, mechanical and electrical engineering for other companies, helping them develop products. And during that time, sort of the whole time throughout college and afterwards we'd always talked about different product ideas that we had for, you know, improving products and coming up with new products. I think it's something that a lot of people do. You know, you kind of idly talk about, Hey, wouldn't it be great if, if we could do this or that, you know, improve this thing that I have an issue with. And then in 2012, we finally kinda decided to do something about it. So I had been doing a lot of writing. And specifically I was training for some, some triathlons. I was in triathlons, a kind of on the dark side there. And then I was riding my road bike. And like a lot of people do when they get into triathlons, they, you know, see people going faster than them with arrow bars and they say, Hey, you know, I want to put arrow bars on my bike. So, you know, I knew enough about bike fit to understand that you couldn't just slap arrow bars on a bike. You also had to change your riding position. And so I ended up Frankensteining my road bike to make it a better kind of triathlon bike that, but it kinda made it a terrible road bike. So our first product which was the switch arrow system, which was these two very, very niche products or designed to let you ride a road bike in a narrow position but still keep your road bike set up. So we kinda decided, Hey, this is, this is something that I really want. You know, the other guys were on board and we developed this system. We developed a C post and the arrow bars and we decided to launch it on Kickstarter in 2013. And got enough of a response that we, you know, decided to make kind of a go at, at growing Redshift. And so gradually over the six years since then, we've grown Redshift. And then a few years ago, we finally tapered the consulting side of our business down enough that we were, you know, full time on Redshift. And so in the interim between then and now, we've introduced a couple products. The shock stops, suspension STEM was in 2015 and then the seatpost was last year and we did those again via Kickstarter, which was an awesome way for, for us as a small company to, you know raise funds and, and kind of prove our market prove that people would actually, you know, get out their credit card and buy these products that we had thought people would like but didn't really know. Yeah, it's interesting, I think for the uninitiated to think about product design and development, it takes a lot to get that first product off the production line and having that validation of a certain number of units at least gives you the sort of financial comfort to know part of the run can be paid for before it's even begun. Yeah. The finances are obviously a huge issue because a lot of people don't really realize what goes in. You know, obviously there's tooling costs, there's the production order, all of these things that are going to kind of hit up front that you have to pay for. But I think the really big thing for us was, was kind of this proof of market. You know, you can sit around and do focus groups, talk to your friends, you know, but you really never know is somebody going to you know, pony up and pay for something if you know, if, if it's a real product they're going to buy. Yeah, absolutely. So when did the, the STEM actually start shipping into market? So it started shipping at the beginning of 2016. So it's been shipping for, you know, almost almost four years at this point. During that period of time was obviously a period of time in which the gravel sector started to really emerge as a, as one of the bigger and faster growing segments of cycling. Did you start to see riders from that sector immediately gravitate over to the product or has it been a kind of a slower roll? Yeah, the, the growth of the gravel kind of area. And biking has been huge for the growth of this STEM as well. I mean it's such a natural fit. And ironically, when we first designed the product, it was designed more with a road market in mind. That's what we set out to do. But sort of during the development process, gravel was growing. It was becoming more of a more of a thing. And we, we were I think really lucky to be in the right time at the right place with the right product to be able to offer something to gravel riders that would kind of take the edge off. You know, there were other brands at the time that were kind of doing similar things, but in general they were kind of proprietary to, you know, a particular frame or particular manufacturer. So you can think about things like, you know, Trex ISIS, bead a system or the future shock on specialized. So for us it was awesome that those things also existed because it, it kind of helps cement, I think in, in writers' minds that compliance in a bike is, is something that you actually want. Because I think for so long, the bike industry has just, you know, beaten this message of like stiffer, later, faster, you know, and stiffness is kind of this, this ultimate metric that, that the, the frame is measured by when in reality, especially as you get to rougher terrain, compliance can, can not only be obviously more comfortable, but it can also help you go faster because you're just not absorbing all of this vibration. It's not a, you know, going into your body, you don't have to float your body over all of it and you saved more energy to pedal. Yeah. Yeah. No, those are good points. Let's take a step back and tell the listener exactly what this STEM is and what it does. Yeah. So the shock stop STEM is pretty straight forward and concept. It's a single pivot suspension, STEM. So a lot of your listeners might remember the old suspension stems of your of the eighties and nineties kinda like the F of Gervin flex STEM, the soft ride. So similar in spirit to those kinds of forebearers, but, but totally different in execution. So it's a single pivot, a STEM that has some internal elastomers that are swappable basically to tune the stiffness of the suspension for your body weight. And we're targeting kind of a small amount of suspension, so 10 to 20 millimeters of, of total travel depending on if you're at the, you know on the flats or out at the hoods. And it's really just designed to take the edge off of vibrations and small bumps that you encounter. You know, as you're riding on gravel and other, you know we call them road surfaces. So this isn't designed for necessarily like a mountain bike. It's not going to replace the suspension fork and we don't intend it to. So that's kind of the, the gist of, of the product. Yeah. You know, and I've, you know, as I mentioned to you offline, I've been writing it for three weeks now and I think one of the biggest compliments I can give you is that in many instances it completely diff disappears. It is a very elegant design from a aesthetic perspective. I find myself almost missing that it is a suspension STEM. But now that I've had it on my bike long enough, I've, I've actually seen other riders out on the trails with it. So very unobtrusive design and in, in many instances the, the movement is very subtle. As you mentioned. My personal experience was obviously when I was the farthest point away from the fulcrum point out on the hoods, I could feel the the most emotion and I felt that motion most kind of when I was riding on the road because my experience off-road was that there was often so much going on in terms of feedback through the bike that it was almost disappearing. The fact that I was getting additional compliance in the handlebar and the STEM part of the bike. Yeah. So again, you know, you mentioned a couple of things. Having the, having the STEM blend in aesthetically with the rest of the bike was a major design goal during the development process. We, we knew just not only from a market standpoint, but just some what we wanted on our bikes. We did not want some sort of weird contraption, you know, bolted onto the front of the bike. We wanted it to blend in to be more or less invisible and be something you wouldn't notice if you weren't looking for it. So that was a, that was a huge goal. And then, yeah, absolutely it was, it was something where this is a pretty common refrain is people will put it on their bike and then notice it for the first, you know, a few minutes of a ride or maybe the first ride and then, and essentially forget about it. And ironically enough, we've had enough number of customers contact us and say, Hey, you know, I, I, I don't think my STEM is working anymore. And what we encourage people to do is say, Hey, okay, cool. Swap the STEM out for, for, you know, your old STEM. And see what the differences and feel. And it's funny, you get used to the difference in feel very quickly and then when you go back to our rigid STEM, the differences is night and day. It's, it's a really sort of amazing experience to go back from, you know, having that compliance to go back to a rigid STEM and to feel the difference. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It's, it's not meant to, it's not meant to make the trail, you know, completely disappear under you. It's not going to do that. But what it is going to do is just take the edge off of all of those, those impacts that are normally gonna sort of jar you and you know, vibrate through your arms, through your wrists, hands and in your shoulders and neck. Yeah, it's probably important to note and add that the STEM ships with a series of elastomer bumpers and a pretty straight forward guide as to how to tune them to your particular rider weight and obviously like suspension forks and other suspension products. If you feel a desire to have a stiffer setup or a softer setup, you can make those adjustments based on your body weight guide. Yeah, exactly. So the, the SEM is designed to, to run with a little bit of sag just to make it as active as possible. But there are some people who prefer more traditional feel and so they set it up a little bit stiffer such that there's really no deflection under normal in their normal riding position. And that it would only, you know, deflect when they hit a bigger bomb or a bigger impact, something like that. So you can, you can tune it in. You know, there's quite a, quite a few levels of, of stiffness that you can choose to let you tune it in. And body weight is kind of the main guidance that we give because that's the most obvious one. But other things like writing position and the type of terrain that you're writing on are also going to have a pretty big impact on that. So if you're writing kind of a more upright position or slacker geometry on your bike, you may need a slightly softer setup just cause you're not going to have as much weight, you know, on your hands and vice versa. Yeah. And I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier for the listener to think about when you think about the total package of your bike, the frame, the rigidity and stiffness of your frame, your tire set up, all that kind of stuff. There's certainly bikes that fall in a wide variety of categories. Like I, I spent a lot of time on an open up, which was a very stiff race oriented carbon frame. In fact, moving from my road bike attract Medona to the open. I felt very little loss in performance, but it was an incredibly stiff bike off road. And you know, my solution to that was riding six 50 B 1.9 tires to get that right match of. But not all gravel bikes have that ability to go that wide in a tire. So I think it's really interesting as a solution to understand as a, as a listener and as a bike owner, as to what an option may be to add additional compliance. If, say you were stuck at a, you know, a 700 by 38 as the, as the widest tire you could go for on a, a very stiff carbon frame. Yeah. The, the comparison that we make, and obviously there are other reasons why you might choose wider tires besides just, you know, ride quality or comfort, you know, traction and handling and things like that are, may drive you in, in that direction anyway. But the comparison that we make is basically to get the same amount of compliance out of your tire that you would get out of this, the STEM, you'd have to increase your tire, you'd have to increase your tire with from like a 38 or something like that, you know, to a 50 or a 55 or something. Really, really dramatic. Because when you think about the amount of deflection that you're going to get out of a tire you know, it's literally like adding 15 to 20 millimeters to the height of your tire. So it's, it's a, it's a much bigger change than, for example, just going from a, you know, a 35 to a 45 or something like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, as, as we look at events on the calendar throughout the year and some of the longer distance, more grueling events, it's pretty clear to me that as a kind of mid pack cyclist, you need to be as concerned with how your body's going to survive a long day. Like, like dirty Kanza as much as how fast you're going to go. So it's all well and good to say, I'm gonna, you know, have an incredibly stiff bike and I'm going to run narrow tires. But your bite, your body may not survive that, you know, in a, in a 10, 12, 14 hour day. Yeah. I think when you look at not only, you know, mid pack writers but, but front of pack writers and really long endurance events like that the event is as much about sort of their, their fitness and their ability to produce power as it is about their ability to kind of maintain, maintain a positive mindset during those events. And I think that goes throughout throughout the, the tiers, you know, all the way from the people who are going to win the event, you know, to the people who are gonna be right in front of the sag wagon. Your fitness is going to be a huge aspect of that. But your ability to maintain your, your mental mindset and and be positive is going to have such a huge impact on your performance. And kind of, you know, as anybody written on gravel, on rough roads for a long period of time, it just kind of builds and builds and builds. And that fatigue of just sort of dealing with all of this vibration and impacts like, you know, after you've been riding for six hours, your hands, your shoulders, you know, your rear end and everything is just, you know, if it's not, if it's not numb, it's, it's, you know, none might be the best thing that it could be at that point. You know, so it makes, it makes a huge difference, you know, in your, in your ability to enjoy the ride, have a positive mental mindset going into it. And then the other thing is that it just, it saves you energy over, over the ride. You know, you don't have to lift as much body weight off of the saddle and the, the handlebars when you're riding. And I should mention that, you know, I'm talking about lifting off the saddle. We also make a complimentary product called the chalk stop suspension. Seatpost that's just launching that, that does the same thing kind of for the rear end of the bike. So that energy savings, you know, of not having to float your body over rough terrain and instead just be able to, you know, sit down, relax, relax your upper body, relax your lower body and pedal through that, you know, the accumulated energy savings over especially along event like that are huge. So it's difficult to overstate how much that that contributes. Yeah, I think that's what's very interesting and elegant about the STEM as the solution because you may, in your, your daily rides not require that, but swapping the STEM out for an altar distance event is quite easy to do. And that's not to say that this STEM doesn't work well as a daily rider cause I've been riding it every day, both on the road and off the road. But for those people maybe who are [inaudible] and concerned about the, the, you know, modest additional weight penalty, being able to throw it on for a specific event, I think is a really viable way to see if it's a good product for you. Yeah. and like you said, you know, it's, it's an easy swap. It installs and removes exactly like a normal STEM does. So you don't have to it fits a bike, you know, pretty much the same way, the stack height on this deer tube and you know, if it's 31.8 millimeter bars. So something that's very easy to try out. And just as a, you know, a pitch a sales pitch here, if, if any writers are interested in testing it out, we offer a 30 day risk-free, you know, ride trial. So you get free shipping, free return shipping if you don't like it and you can ride it for 30 days and return it, no questions ask if it doesn't work out for you. So we're pretty confident that once they try it, they really love it. And so we want to give people the opportunity to, to test it out, see if it works for them and hopefully it does. Right on. Well, let's dig in. You mentioned that the, the product, the new forthcoming seat posts that you guys are going to be shipping, what's the sort of vision behind that product and how does it actually perform? Obviously, you know, the, the sort of concern that will jump up in the listeners mind right away is that, you know, my pedaling cadence and fluidity and sort of just that sense of being directly connected to the motion of the crank and the distance of my crank arms is going to be affected by any suspension. Can you dig in a little bit on that product? Yeah, yeah. So this was sort of a natural follow on to the shock stop STEM. We, we always knew that we wanted to make a C post, but it took us a while to figure out exactly what we wanted to do and how we wanted to improve on, you know, the products that were already on the market. The STEM was a little bit different in that, you know, at the time we launched the STEM, there were really no other bolt-ons, sort of front suspension options for, for gravel or drop bar bikes. Whereas with the C post, you know, there are things on the market like thawed, Buster body float and then a variety of sort of, you know, inexpensive telescoping suspension seatpost options that you could buy. And that's not to mention kind of what I'll call pseudo suspension C posts, things like the specialized CGR where they're relying on sort of carbon flexing or something like that to, to provide a little bit of additional compliance. So, you know, we wrote a bunch of those C posts, tested them out, like the lot of them disliked some of them and kind of crystallize exactly what we were looking for in a sea post. And, and it kinda boils down to a couple things. One, as I mentioned previously, we wanted to make sure that the, the aesthetics of the post, you know, blended in well with modern bikes. We didn't want it to be something where you're sort of like, look at the bike and all you can see is this giant contraption at the top of the, you know, the seatpost. And then we wanted the suspension travel to be meaningful. And when I say meaningful, something that is not just going to mute, you know, small vibration or buzz, but it's actually going to absorb impacts, you know, rocks, roots expansion, joints on the road, things like that, that kind of like a, a specialized CGR or just a compliant carbon post is not really going to handle. And then we basically wanted the, the travel and the response of the CBOs to be really responsive because, you know, in a situation like a gravel ride, you know, you're dealing with a lot of high frequency impacts or oscillations. So the post needed to be responsive enough to deal with that. And the direction that there were, those impacts are coming from. So we took all of that, spent a long time, you know, refining and prototyping and testing different designs and finally arrived at the design of the shock stops. He posts that, that we have now. And we believe that it provides a, you know, a super compliant responsive ride that is going to absorb all of those impacts but still blend in with the aesthetic of your bike. To answer kind of the, the second part of your question regarding how does it feel, how does it feel? Do you lose a connection to, to the bottom racket or lose your ability to smoothly generate power? I mean, I can only speak for myself and the answer for me and for the people that I know that have tested it is no that basically there's enough damping in the post that your, your pedal stroke is not going to cause bobbing. And so again, it's sort of it's going to actuate when you ride over something. And then the other thing is that the, the motion of the seatpost is unlike a telescoping post where the distance between the bottom racket and the saddle would just be decreasing linear league with travel linkage based posts like ours or you know, similar to something like a thought Buster has the advantage that the motion of this saddle is sort of back and down a little bit towards the rear wheel. And so that motion, the tra the suspension travel doesn't course correlate to such a large change in the bottom bracket to saddle distance. And at the end of the day, this is sort of a little bit difficult to explain, but it's just not something that you notice because again, you have to compare that the, you know, the bottom bracket to saddle distance is changing slightly as the, as the CBOs moves through his travel. But that's because you're riding over a bump. And normally what would happen if you rode over a bump that caused that sort of deflection is you would either bounce up off of the saddle or you would be off of the saddle to begin with. To, you know, suspend yourself as you wrote over that bump. So it's kinda funny because you know, you think of this as something that's compliance, but you can really sit down and battle through things that you might otherwise stand up and coast through. Because there's just enough travel there to, to kind of mute out all of those vibrations. Yeah. I suppose as a user of the STEM, I can visualize exactly what you're talking about, like you know, happening, But there's the feedback that you'd normally be getting from riding through that bumpy section. You're just getting it in a different way. And perhaps by being able to sit, stay seated through that experience, you retain more control and potentially a faster ability to put power back into the pedals. Yeah. And, and you notice this, you can really notice this, you know, for example, descending it's something where on a, you know, on a bike that's not equipped with a, with a dropper seat post for example. When you're descending in a lot of situations, it's much easier to control the bike if you have some weight on the saddle. But if you don't have a suspension seatpost you run the risk of hitting something and sort of getting bucked or bounced off the saddle. If you, you know, if you hit a bump that you don't notice. That's one place where I noticed it the most is where at the end of long dissents where I would often find that my legs were quite tired because I was standing up the whole way down the descent basically that, you know, I can strategically pick places where I can sit down and just, you know, ride and relax my legs. And so it's that kind of energy savings that, you know, beyond sort of the comfort aspect there. There's a real energy savings associated with, with being able to, with not having to stand up and suspend your body with your legs, you know, as much. Yeah. I, I definitely have personal experience with a dropper posts both on road and off road that mimics that experience. I really do enjoy being able to drop it a little bit and remain seated and just kind of take that as recovery time and have the additional control of having weighed on the, on the rear of the bike, like you said. Yeah. Fascinating stuff. You know, it's interesting to me, I think, you know, I've said this before on the podcast that many new or gravel cyclists are coming to the sport from a road background and there's heavily steeped traditions and mentalities around road riding, around stiffness, lack of suspension, all these biases that we're bringing to the table that this year and next year in the gravel market. I see those biases being challenged dramatically by products like this and different compliant frame designs and even suspended frames that are gonna prove themselves out as being faster, more comfortable, just generally better, more fun bicycles. And I think it's a really exciting time to be exploring that. And I think you guys are in a great spot for that exploration. Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really I think a fun time to be, you know, just in the bike industry, but, but to be a consumer, to, to be shopping for bikes because more and more you can find whatever bike you know you want to ride. And I think that's super interesting. If you're, if you're, you know, a roadie who occasionally ventures off road, you can find a great bike for that. If you're a mountain biker who wants, you know, a, a drop bar monster cross mountain bike with two and a half inch knobby tires on it, like you can find the bike for that too. But totally agree. I think that much like, you know, much like we saw in, in sort of cross country mountain biking where the, there was resistance to the adoption of, of full suspension bikes certainly at the highest racing levels in gravel. I think there's a little bit of resistance there just because people are accustomed to sort of the, the purity and, and the aesthetics of of unsuspended bikes. But it definitely seems, you know, I, I would put money on the fact that full suspension, gravel bikes are, are going to be something that are pretty common in the future as people, as people realize, you know? Yeah. They're, they're faster, they're more comfortable. They're more enjoyable to ride. So yeah, it's gonna be fascinating to see kind of where everybody drives to and what the different what the different options are for people. But I think regardless of what, regardless of what people, you know, think they're going to be able to find a bike that, that works well for them. And I think that's the thing to me that's so exciting about gravel is, yeah, maybe, maybe not serious cyclists, but you know, they're asking or they're interested in buying a bike and it's just a no brainer. Now, you know, it's like, yeah, if you're going to buy a bike, you should buy a gravel bike. You shouldn't, you shouldn't even think twice about it. Like, that's the bike that you should buy. So I think that that's, that's pretty, pretty awesome. Yeah. And mean as we've covered before. And as the, the the listener most likely knows the beauty of these gravel bikes, that they're like chameleons, right? You can have two sets of wheels, you can have a shock stop STEM, you can have a suspension seat posts and you can swap them in and out depending on what you're doing. And the net net is you end up with a bike that can take you everywhere from bike packing to cyclocross racing. And that's, it's really exciting and certainly a great value for your money as a cyclist to be able to have one bike that can sort of wear many dresses. Yeah. And as a recovering, you know, and plus one, a bike, alcoholic. I currently probably have seven bikes in my garage, so I'm trying to try and get rid of them. But you know, the idea of having one, you know, One great bike that you can really sort of do everything with is, is super attractive. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Steven, thank you so much for, for sharing your thoughts on the company and the products. And the time I've really enjoyed riding the product thus far and I'm really curious to kind of explore it as something that can help reduce fatigue and increased performance over my rides. Yeah, thanks so much Craig. Really appreciate it. It was great talking to you and hopefully we can get together for a ride sometime soon. Right on. Thanks again to Steven for joining the pod this week. Since recording, I've actually spent another couple of months on the shock stops STEM due to some back issues and I remain impressed every time I get that thing off road. I am happy to have a little bit of cush in these days where my body could use a little break. So kudos for them for an interesting design and something to consider if you're finding off road riding a little too jolting to your body in this week's can't let it go. Segment, I want to talk about lights. I've been using a night sun Lumia light and it's been shocking to me how compact this lighting system is compared to the wattage that it's putting out. It's made my night rides home commuting super comfortable and safe. I remember back in the day when you used to have to Mount a battery in your water bottle cage and how heavy and obnoxious those setups were. Whereas today you can get something that mounts simply on your handlebar plug in. Charger is all good to go and you can be completely safe out there. So as we're concluding winter, I hope everybody's invested in some good safety lighting to keep them safe and hopefully even get out there and explore off road. So that's it for this week. I appreciate all the support. If you have any feedback, shoot me a note@craigatthegravelride.bike or hit me up on any of the social media platforms. As always, if you're enjoying what we do, please leave a rating or review those few minutes of efforts, really help us reach a broader audience, which is important with that. Until next time, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
Tim Kremer from the Gravel Epic race series talks to us about events in Marrakesh, Slovenia, Girona and Mt. Etna. Each event capturing the local flavor and best routes designed by local gravel athletes. Gravel Epic Website. Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Good day everyone, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast we've got Tim Kramer from the gravel Epic series over in Europe. Big thanks to Jason over at the gravel cyclist for making this connection for me. I first read about the gravel Epic series on the gravelcyclist.com. Get your passports ready and start saving those dollars because when you hear about the gravel Epic series, I think you're going to be like me and want to jump on the next plane over to Europe. Tim and his team have created four events, one in Marrakesh, Morocco, the second in Slovenia, the third in Mount Etna in Italy, and the fourth in Gerona. They've worked with local athletes in all these areas to find the best terrain, most representative of the area, and they're combining that with rich cultural experiences so you can immerse yourself in the local culture. So with all that said, let's jump right in. Tim, welcome to the shelf. Hey Greg, thanks for having me. Ever since Jason at the gravel cycle of shared your events series with me, I've been super excited to get you on the phone and learn more about it. It sounds amazing. But before we get started as is customary on the podcast, I'd love to just learn a little bit more about your background and how you got into gravel cycling. The background graph cycling is very easily explained. I don't remember exactly how many years ago it was, but I read an article on the dirty Kanza and the New York times. That was when I was sitting in my living room in Hong Kong on a weekend and I read this and I thought, bloody hell, that sounds like an event I'd like to do or so I, Mike, my calendar when registration is opened, I think it was sometime in January and I was lucky enough to get in. That was a few years ago, so it was a little bit easier than now. It's still a lottery. And we got in. So my friend of mine and I, and shortly afterwards we bought our first gravel bike. A simple cyclocross from focus. It was, I think back then and you know, started training, which in Hong Kong was pretty hard cause we have no gravel roads. So we basically just cycled on the road. And the first time ever on gravel was when we were hit the roads in Kansas. That's amazing. I mean we often explore how gravel cycling differs in different parts of the country and how unique Kansas is. But I can't imagine getting on a plane from having only written around Hong Kong on your bike to the Flint Hills of Kansas and tackling that huge event. It was a yes, very different experience. For one, eh, I had the wrong shoes. I wrote with most shoes, which was almost constant, completely wrong thing to do. So the first river crossing when I walked through my puddles couldn't clip in anymore and I still have a, the road with a stick trying to clean the pedals, I can continue cycling. But beyond, beyond that, it was an amazing experience. And we've been seeking out travel events ever since. We wrote at a year later, we did a small event in Texas and 200 miners. So it was lucky that I'm self employed and we were able to combine the business trips with revel races or other bike races. That's great. And you know, as someone who, it sounds like shares residency between Hong Kong and Spain, were you particularly in Europe I guess were you simply just not seeing the type of events that you were falling in love with in the U S anywhere on the continent? Well the Spain thing for us is relatively recent, so my family only relocated here a year ago. I still kind of go back and forth. We, we saw the races in the U S and thought it was something really exciting because gravel is slowly taking off in Europe and continental Europe and the UK. It's a little bit better known in that. Tons of races. But they are mostly local. Except for two or three races that are now over two or three years have grown a little bit more. I wouldn't say international, but more national. And when we thought about this, we thought this would be something really, that we enjoy, that our friends enjoy going to interesting places and, and taking them off the road. Not the typical grand Fondo but on the, you know, was me, we call it the sort of the, the gravitates to where the roads end, so to beautiful places. And that's what we try to do and look for locations. And first four locations we found in Marrakesh and Slovenia bled in UNG Alona and which is, you know, it was only about an hour away from, we are now in Barcelona and Mount Edna are completely different in their environment and completely different in the kind of rioting on gravel that our participants will experience. That's amazing. So let's step back for a minute. I mentioned it in the opening, but you got a gravel. Epic is listed as the first gravel series in Europe, in North Africa. What an incredibly audacious goal to put on four amazing events. What was the vision behind what you were creating and why did you look to do the four events rather than starting with just one? I'm audacious. Yes. And we're finding out my, the workload that really it is a lot more than we expected. We're not from the event or, or a sports event business. We come from very different backgrounds, but we thought that the amount of marketing needed it's much better to have it amortized over four events and also to keep us across the year and you know, more involved in not to some one event decided to start with four. We're lucky that we of course don't organize everything by ourselves. We have local partners who are based there. We'll know the region. We could not find the same gravel roads and that the people that do so in that regards were happy that we don't have to do everything. But there's still a lot of work to be done. Yeah, I can only imagine and that makes a lot of sense. Economically speaking, I know I talked to a number of race organizers. It's one thing to create a small event in your local community and keep it manageable, but the moment it becomes successful, you realize that the infrastructure and skillset of the team members required is often difficult, difficult to cobble together when you're only talking about focusing that energy on a single event each year. Yeah, and I mean we intentionally, you know, really want to get a very international group to our races. And from what we've seen now in Marrakech where registrations haven't been open for that long, we already have people from 10 or 11 nationalities coming. You know, we have from as far as Los Angeles, I'm a cyclist and then from Hong Kong, from the other side of the world we get inquiries from India. We are always surprised to where people come and how they find us because it's not really an area where we advertise. Yeah. I'm sure that's only going to grow as the registration period opens longer and longer. Certainly, you know, seeing the types of events and locations, particularly for North American writers and writers, you know, in Asia, it's a heavy decision to make a decision to attend one of these events in Europe. And obviously it takes a lot of planning to get there. Yes, it does. You know, and it's, that's what we try to combine them with a lot of touristy activities and we also offer you know, for people from the U S and want to come over for more than a week, not just the race, but you can take a three, five or eight day gravel tour in the area and then finish with a race or start after the race. That's the super exciting plan. I love that. I also like to hear that you enlisted the help of local riders who know the community and trails better to kind of craft the race courses. How did you identify the four locations in the first place? If I could only remember exactly all the discussion that went in. I mean, we looked obviously at the map at something that was interesting for us where we would want it to go. Myra cash was right on top of our list because a, it's very easily reachable and it's completely different from by where we are in terms of cultural experience and the writing as well. So that was a fairly easy choice. We originally also had looked at places in Germany and Holland. But decided then that wasn't so exciting and pick Slovenia because of the mountain bike scene that was there. A friend of ours has been riding there and highly recommended it. So we went over there for a long weekend and came back very, very impressed by the area and the three glove national park by the Julian Alps. And we're lucky enough to find a good partner. And when we went back, they already had stitched a probably 60, 70% of what now is the race cost together for us to explore. Mon Aetna, the same thing. We were looking for something that is again different in terms of writing cause we wanted to give people who want to enjoy the forum experience something very different. Every single event and riding on an active volcano is again very different than the surface is different cause it's lava rock. And the amazing part in Aetna is you can ride the beautiful forest and suddenly the forest is cut open by where the lava poured and cut down the forest and you have 500 meters or a kilometer writing to laugh Robin rocks and suddenly the forest closes again and you're, you're again in a very confined space. It's a very unique experience. Amazing. So let's go through a little bit more specifically the events and the locations and maybe gives the listener a little bit of an understanding as to the type of gravel riding experience they'll have. You touched a little bit on it just now about Mount Etna and you also mentioned how in your opinion different each experience was going to be, let's take them in order and make sure that each one gets the lip service it deserves because they all are clearly amazing locations. Well starting in Marrakesh, which is the first race in our theories and March next year, which is we start in the desert, so it's fairly flat. The gravel is very hard packed. It doesn't rain much there. There's only a few eliminated rain in the winter months. And lucky from when we start the race, it should have just finished. So we can see still the snow capped mountains and the Atlas in the background and it, we still have tons of green around. But the desert itself, eh, not much green, but you will see a lot of green as you ride along the course. But the, the gravel is very, very hard packed. It's not quite as sharp as young people know. And we talk about dirty Kansas our size. So we have never, none of us had a flat ball riding there, but it's quite a hard pack road. The climbs are very long. Not short times. The main climb out of the Agatha desert into the Atlas mountains. I forgot how many kilometers or miles, but it's, I think it's somewhere around six to 10, six miles, 10 kilometers long. And then you ride along the Ridge and you descend into valleys where again, it gets green, you see plantations right to bourbon villages. It's a very, very unique different experience as you ride along because the scenery constantly change us. And then finally you ride back through the RFA desert too. They can probably start and for many it'll be a race against the sunset trying to make it before the sunsets. If we then go to the next races and Aetna, which a completely different environment. For one it's Italy, which the food, the ambiance, the noise in the street, everything is quite different experience when we get to the race course, which starts just outside of the national park. And a small town called Milo. The initial, no, I don't have the data and dragged in front of me, but I think the first 20 kilometers we climb close to 2000 meters or 30 kilometers. So it's a constant up, up, up until you reach sort of the plateau level. And when you start riding around the area, we're not riding fully around Aetna, that's much, much too long, but our course kind of goes up to it and then goes down again, goes back up again. And it's a nice combination of off-road and on-road. The riding is a bit more technical because the rocks, the lava can be quite sharp. Eh, or in later in the season or if there wasn't a lot rain, a lot of rain. The lava is very soft. So it's definitely a course that requires much more technical skills than any of the other three courses that we have. But the amazing thing there is really to ride and you can see Monadnock in the back, which is always covered with some clouds. It always looks like it's smoking. And sometimes, and sometimes you can even hear it rumble. So it's a very nice experience. And course we have, I find very interesting because it goes through forest, which the road is much smoother. And sun, you had that lava patch where again, you really have to go on your chores and make sure you don't crash. And then after that we go to Slovenia with the race starts in blood, which is very, very well known for the church in the middle of the Lake and the cost that overlooks the leg. Very, very small town, roughly only 8,000 people. And there, the course is longer and more climate and everything else, all the other courses that we have, but the roads are Forrest routes. So it's, it's really not technical. We expect people to be much, much faster which is why the causes longer. And we have over 4,000 meters of climates. That's over 12,000 meters of climbing, over 180 kilometers, I think it was. So bring your climbing legs for that course. But again, it's not technical. The descends are not too difficult. You know that the tire choices there are very definitely, what do you need an Edna after your ride? Possibly widest tie. You can fit on your bike. With knobby tires, with Slovenia, you probably put a 35 on, I wouldn't say slicks, but really you don't need much in terms of treads. And then we finished the race. He was in Geovanna, which people know is very well known for cycling. There's tons of pro cyclists, ex pros living there. There is a ton also already off slaw, smaller. I'm grabbing races in the area. I'm always, it's longer than that. The local races, we're going up to 180 kilometers. The course is at times technical. But most of the time, you know, the climbing is nice and long and gradual and it's a beautiful area. And part of the [inaudible] North Catalonia, My gosh, the hardest thing is just deciding which one sounds the best out of those. Yeah, it's a difficult choice. You know, for me, Marrakesh was always the first choice simply because it's more exotic and it's an area that I'm really not familiar with. But I'm equally blown away by bled and by that, because again, it's completely different to the writing that I have here in Barcelona. So it's very hard to say what people expect and where they come from, what their preference is. Yeah. And I noted each of the courses, the expected medium finish median finish time is 10 hours. So it sounds like that's the goal. Yeah. Common theme across the events. And basically what we've done is we write the course. If I, it takes me about 11 hours, I think that the normal cycle should take about 10 cause we, I mean we, you know, we stopped for P, we stopped a bit more and we look at it and says, yeah, roughly 10 hours. And we expect the fast people. I'm always depending on conditions to come in at seven and a half to eight hours. And the cutoff depending on the cause where we are and what we can do with low closures will be 14, 15 hours or everybody should be able to finish the course. Yeah. And as people group up, obviously in the event the pace gets a little bit hotter and the course can get covered a little faster. Correct. Correct. For a Marrakesh we already have a couple of very, very good cyclists signed up. So we'll definitely see some action up the front, I think. Interesting. And then also a common theme, a pretty healthy chunk of climbing looks like between, you know, minimum 3,300 meters of climbing to over 4,000 in one of the [inaudible]. Yes. Yes. I think that's just driven by the destinations that we picked. The all mountain is areas. We like to be in somewhere more remote areas, which often that also leads to be in more mountainous areas. And you know, I personally like climbing. I think it makes a writing interesting if it's just on the flats and it's not for me. Yeah. Well, some of the descriptions you were providing on the courses are only possible to get this type of views and changes in terrain and changes in the ambiance of where you're riding through by having those large elevation gains. Yes, that's correct. And again, Marrakesh, you know, it's the end of winter so that the lower regions that'll be quite nice and warm. But when you get up to close to 2000, it'll be fresh. People will have to pack extra clothes. Interesting. So it'd be a real adventure. Yes. It'd be different experience from the, from the desert up into the mountains in, in terms of temperature. In terms of views and writing, it'll be completely different. And it looks like for each event correct me if I'm wrong, you've got two distances. Correct? We have what we call the exploration course. Not that it's easy by any means. But for those who are new to long distance gravel riding we wanted to offer something more manageable. We make it very easy if people feel that the training went well, they can easily change to the larger course. But of course, a hundred miles on gravel is something very different than a hundred miles on the road. And how are you thinking about the race in terms of it being a race versus a ride? [Inaudible] I think just based on the distance for 80% of the people, it'll be a ride, which is the challenging itself. We made it a race so that people more have a record of how long it took them, but not in the sense that we expect people to go out and really race one another. It's more a race against yourself, I think. And against the clock or whatever goal you've set yourself. And maybe a rate is against a friend, but I don't expect this to be a race like you would find on their own and on a road race or so. No. But do you imagine that over time, you know, writers will start to think of thinking of the events as they do a dirty cancer and SBT gravel where the professional athletes have it on their calendar because it's, it's notable to, to win. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be nice. It'd be interesting. I mean, as I said before, we have a couple of writers that, you know, when I signed up with like, okay, so they're clearly the more modern than say professional, but very, very, very good amateurs and no one did the scene who don't does, right. They, they, they will go and race this thing. But for most of us it'll be a challenging ride. That allows you to set goals. We also have a time section on every race that we call our coms. It's one long climb, but people can, if they don't want to race the whole race, but put it in over the next you know, 10 K on one climb or so and see how they fare against the best riders. So there's a little bit for everyone. Yeah, that's neat. I always appreciate this time segments just because it's, it's novel. It gives you a little bit of something to focus on during a long event. Yeah. Yeah. And especially in the climbs are hard enough. But if you know that you can see yourself, see how you did ever against everybody, I think it makes a bit of take that at least I need when I'm attempting one of these long clients. Yeah, it's interesting with all these events something is inevitably going to go wrong during your day. That's just sort of the nature of gravel and adventure riding. They're having those times segments. It's just a reminder of like, Oh, I can come back and try to tackle that the overall time as well as the segment time again in the future. Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, gravel, rough roads. The bikes are good, but things do go wrong. Yeah, absolutely. I do. I had, I had one carbon when go bust on me and Aetna, I think I must have had a rock really badly. And you know, that was the end of my ride. So that has happened. Yeah. Yeah. I do imagine, you know, as the sport continues to grow from a, from a retail perspective over in Europe, that the bike brands are gonna want their brand ambassadors to be traveling to these locations and sort of putting a flag in the ground that their equipment was a, you know, on the ground in Sylvania or, or AmeriCash. Yeah, it would be very nice. We haven't really signed up any sponsors because we're so new. We don't really have any history. But hopefully in a year from now we can approach the bike brands and they'll be interesting in working with us. I know just because it's, it's a category that is very, very interesting now in Europe, as I said, it's growing. You can see everybody, we are releasing components about it. We have even seen special Graebel shoes. Not, I am not, I haven't been able to figure out what they are, but all kinds of special Graebel equipment is coming to the market now. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that's obviously something we explore pretty extensively here on the podcast. And there's, I think just little tweaks that are starting to arrive over time where people are saying, to your point, like, you know, what is a gravel shoe? It's not, it's maybe not as soft as a mountain bike shoe, but maybe it's not as stiff as a road racing shoe and there's just sort of a blend in the middle there that that meets the kind of day you're going to have out of the bike as a gravel cyclist. Correct. I mean, you know, we're, luckily we don't push as often as maybe some more difficult mountain bike races or so or, or some bike packing events where you have to carry all that luggage up the Hill. But you know, some sexual, I mean, I know that some people will have to walk on certain seconds on all of course because it's difficult in a technically or too steep. Yeah. So you mentioned the UK being a little bit of a hotbed. Are there other pockets in Europe that you've identified where you feel there are a lot of gravel cyclists emerging? And while we can see by the Facebook groups that there are very large groups in Italy and France for example, there's a Facebook group in France that has 9,000 writers now, are they all pure gravel cyclists? Probably not. A lot of them own a gravel bike and they use it for commuting. But you know, that's what grabs the writing is if not just grab a beer in Europe is often all road riding. It's a bike that allows you to go everywhere. Some people use it for their commute instead of the normal city bike maybe that they had before instead of a cyclocross bike. Yup, absolutely. But it's certainly that big. It's coming. And he, in Spain, in our circle of friends within the last 12 months, I think 30% of our cycling group bought a gravel bike. And even also of Barcelona, we still have tons and tons of good roads that allow us to go out there. And it's very nice to explore an area that we've written through many, many times and starting to be able to turn off the road and ride 20, 30 kilometers on gravel in an area that we've not seen before. Even though we've written that area for many times, I think that's exactly it and exactly why this massive light bulb goes off the moment you get one of these bikes, it's easy to sort of sit on the sideline when you live in a place where there's amazing road riding like you and I both do. But the ability to take that left turn and hit a section of gravel just opens up this world of possibility. And all of a sudden, I know speaking from my own experience, I find myself writing just the best sections of road that I'm familiar with and then getting off road or amazing sections that'll connect pieces of, of tarmac that are otherwise and connectable in a reasonable amount of time. I fully agree. I mean, we were on a ride here in an area, a park wash, which we've written in many times on the road bike. And for the first time somebody put a rotor that was 90% gravel and I think for six hours all of us were smiling because it was such a new and great experience that we didn't expect. Yeah. I think particularly for people in the area. Yeah, and I think particularly for athletes that are coming from the road side, which is my suspicion is we're drawing a lot of athletes from that side of the sport versus the mountain bike side. As a mountain biker, we've all written those sections where you just sort of, something happens, you skid out but you survive and you get to the bottom of it and you, you want to high five, your friends did that. You don't often get that on the road, but you, you, you often and frequently get that in gravel and particularly in events that are, that are long or Epic in the terrain, you know, you're going to have mishaps and that's part of the fun. And when we all get to the finish line, it's part of the reason why the gravel community can be so tight from the first place finisher to the last place finisher because we're all going to have those experiences throughout the day. I fully agree and you know, we try to have at the end of our events, always a big party and not the normal finish a party. We're trying to put something together where people really sit together and share the stories of what happened to them during the day and then how they enjoy the ride or what they didn't enjoy. And you know, we're, we'll hopefully get lot of tons of feedback how to make it better the following year. But we really would like to people to connect to these events. And that's why said it's, it's a race, but we really, for most of us, I think it's more of a timed event and I think it's fantastic if people sit together later on and make friends. Yeah. The other thing I think that's fantastic about what you've laid out here is, you know, obviously all of these destinations are, are tourist worthy. And you know, it's not like writers should plan on popping in and out just for race day or 48 hours around the event. I know you're thinking about that and thinking about how to make a trip out of it, particularly for athletes from North America. We're not going to come over, you know, for less than a week to do something like this. So are you laying out other events around the actual race day to help riders who are coming in early explore the terrain and make the most out of their trips? Yeah, absolutely. We have for example, in Marrakesh we have a six day gravel tour, which can be easily made into three or if people want even more because there's so many relatives, we can connect them all different ways so that people can come over and explore the area before the event, if that one for three, four days or not a part of Morocco, because we have a tour that starts close to Marrakesh and you can ride just at the tip of the Sahara desert. In I'd say, you know, we, we say six days, I think people who have a little bit more stronger legs can easily do it in five days, maybe even four, if you want to push yourself. So there's tons of stuff to do around in terms of probably writing, but obviously also for the family. A Morocco, Marrakesh is a tourist destination for the a trip, no matter whether you bring the bike or not, it's especially for North Americans, such a different world to walk through the souks in Marrakesh. It's fantastic. I really enjoyed it. For me. Two days is enough, but my wife was very happy to hang around longer and buy more stuff. But it's, it's more the a trip and you can get on the car or a motorcycle and take a trip into the Berber villages and explore the life of the villages they have, which again is very different from what you see in the city. And these additional add on gravel events. Are they events that you're, you're paying to participate in? Are you, are you arranging these? Yes. I mean that paid events. I mean for some we can just, if somebody does once a day trip, we can happy to give them a GPS data around the village. But the other things, because they need to be organized. You need to have a van, we need to book the hotels. The transfer when the right finishes, cause it's not a loop. Back to Marrakesh or Casa Blanca or wherever the people want to go at the end of the ride. So yes, they are, they're paid trips. Okay. So you'll actually arrange sort of a little journey for us around the country. Yes, we are very flexible. We want people to have a good time. We know it's a long way to go and to make it worthwhile. We happy, you know, we work with local partners who then help us to put these things from simple things like a one hour camel ride around the desert to a six day bike trip on gravel bike or for some, you know, if the partner comes along when they are e-bikes as well. Amazing. Well I have to say, you know, you cannot visit [inaudible] gravel, epic.com and not be inspired and excited by the imagery that you guys have put forth in the videos around the various locations. I definitely encourage all the listeners to go check the event out. It's very inspirational to kind of look at these locations and I'm excited to have had this conversation with you, Tim, and learn more about what your goals are for the event and I wish you the best of luck. Thank you very much for having me. Hopefully can work in many of the listeners at one of our events. You know, if you have any questions, always shoot us an email. We hope to give you all the answers you need. Awesome. Thanks Tim. All right. Thanks so much Greg. Wow, big thanks to Tim. I feel like I've already packed my bag and signed up for a couple of those events. I've always wanted to ride in Morocco and heard amazing things about the terrain over there, so that one's definitely on my bucket list in this week's can't let it go. I've been thinking about dropper posts. We've talked about it a bunch of times on the podcast, but I always have fun slamming my post. It's one of those subtle things and maybe not necessarily the most obvious thing to get on a gravel bike, but give one a try. I think you'll like it. And if you're orientating your spec around fun, I can't recommend dropper posts enough. Thanks for spending a little time with us this week. As always, a welcome your feedback via social media channels or craig@thegravelride.bike. If you have a moment, please share this episode with some of your friends. We'd love to get more listeners and ratings and reviews are always deeply appreciated. So until next time, here's to finding some dirt under your wheel.
This week things got off the rails quickly without Tim around. Spencer spilled the beans on his Kanza training, and Little Guy let us know how his StuporBowl race went. Obviously we dug into Fuglsang and Ferrari, as well as coming up with better ways to send your $30k This week we are supported by WORX Hydroshot portable washer! Just in time for cyclocross season, and winter training rides. This thing is amazing, get yours at yourcleanbike.com, AND do yourself a favor and watch the A+ video on it here: wideanglepodium.com/hydroshot The poddy is also supported by Grimpeur Bros. Specialty Coffee! Our custom WAP roasts “The Full Schleck” and “Cyclocross Friends” are available now! Proceeds from each sale directly support WAP (and SRP)! It's a win-win! Check out grimpeurbros.com and pick up the Full Schleck light roast or Cyclocross Friends espresso. Last butt not least; Miracle WAP Chamois Cream! Produced for us by our friends at Buckler Skin Care we've created Miracle WAP, the smoovest thing to hit the cycling scene since our podcast! “The tingle is the miracle”! Find us, and other fantastic cycling podcasts on the Wide Angle Podium Network, at wideanglepodium.com! Check out the brand new WAP app available in the Apple and Android app stores! You can listen to us in a variety of ways: Find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere great podcasts are found. Give us a review and rating! We'd appreciate it! You can email us at theslowridepodcast@gmail.com Find us on Twitter: The show (@theslowridepod) Matt (@littleguymatt) Spencer (@spencerhaugh) Tim (@thesuperrookie)
This week we speak with @cyclingtips, Chief Gravel Correspondent / Man in a Van / Gravel racer, Marshall Opel about his 2019 gravel tour and take-aways from the numerous great gravel events he attended over the year. Cycling Tips Website Cycling Tips Instagram Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos. Good day everyone, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the pod we've got Marshall Opal, he's the chief gravel correspondent for cycling tips and last summer he went on a journey all around the United States racing gravel races out of a van. He was affectionately known as the man in the van. What's awesome about Marshall's experience last year was that not only did he get to experience all these phenomenal races that we'll get into in the podcast, but because he was camping out in his van, he really got a sense of the community in these events, which is something I think we all look at when choosing gravel events. We want to go somewhere that the racing is going to be fun, the terrain's going to be awesome, but the community's there. That's really the big draw. That's why it's so worth traveling outside your comfort zone and outside your local area to get into one of these races. Because the community, it's just fun to hang out and meet people. And what better way to do it then spending your time in the van and driving between races and just taking advantage of everything the local community has to offer. Marshall's a talented racer in his own right. So he got to experience some of the front end excitement in the race, but also that deep level of community across the country. So I was super stoked to meet Marshall down in Bentonville at the end of the year at the big sugar gravel reveal and talk to him about his opinions on where gravel's going, where it's been, how do we keep it fun and awesome. So I really looked forward to recording this interview with Marshall and I hope you enjoy it. So with that, let's dive right in. And Marshall, welcome to the show. Craig. Thanks for having me. I am stoked to talk about the endless summer of gravel you had in 2019. But before we get started, let's explain to the listener a little bit about your background and how you came to riding bikes off road. I grew up in Montana, so a lot of our riding is off road in the first place. But yeah, we used to have a, a road race called the Rocky mountain route Bay and that had a gravel section on a circuit. And I remember it being, you know, Oh, it's a off road race. I'm gonna put 20 fives on. And so it was very much riding road bikes on, on dirt and gravel. And it's only been pretty recently that I have gotten in this, the new wave gravel. I would say I did Belgium Walsall rod in 2016 and I did the way for that year and that was, I would say that was when I really started to see the, the new gravel movement. And you'd spent a couple of pretty intense Years in as a junior and later as an older, a rider racing on the road. Right? Yeah. I was determined to be a European professional road cyclist from the time I was like 12. I was like, Oh, this is definitely going to happen. And I'm, I chase that pretty hard. Dropped out of college and lived in a campground in Brittany France and raced for a French team and spent some time with the U S you train three national team and you know, looking back it was cool that I chased, chased the dream to that level, but I also, it was, it was an opportunity where I kind of realized that I needed to make adjustments for for myself that that wasn't going to be for me to be a full time pro cyclist. And I never really left the bike world though. I became a bike tour guide and then I got a job at Rafa. And now I'm sort of in the cycling journalism world and so bikes have never left. But the racing is, has evolved quite a bit. That makes sense. And the equipment has as well. So your, your role at at cycling tips puts you basically on the road, I would say beyond the summertime. It looks like you started out in April last year when all the way through October on this this gravel journey where you were living in a van part of the time and traveling around to some of the country's biggest and most diverse gravel events just to name a few Belgian waffle ride, dirty Kanza, the moots ranch rally crusher in the Tuscher, Steamboat gravel grinder row. You were really all over the place. And one of the things we're always exploring in this podcast is just sort of the, the regional nature of the feel of riding on gravel. And I thought when I met you, who better to co kind of comment about that than someone who's been across all these events all across the country this year? Yeah. You know, I did gravel events in small event in Northern California. I was riding gravel out in Northern Vermont and the Midwest dirty Kansas. So I definitely got a good perspective on the state of gravel in the U S in 2019 and yeah, stoked to share some thoughts. So when you were traveling, were you, were you modifying your equipment based on what was in front of you in any given course? I think that's one of the fun things about gravel is that there is like a, a conversation about what's the best equipment for, for an event. And I don't think you necessarily have that in traditional road cycling. But yeah, it was fun. I worked with Donnelley tires. It was fun to always be wondering what tire to use and I didn't really have to do too much with, I wrote a, a Niner gravel bike and you know, it was, it was a great bike all year. And so the only real adjustment I was making was my tires. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, there is a, obviously a plethora of equipment choices out there and I always want to be the first to say, ride what you got. It's going to work in most of these events and then it's fine tuning from there. I think if you're in the front end of this sphere, you have to sort of think about, you know, do I want to go a narrower, faster tire? But usually for most people it's stick with what you got, get some nice, comfortable to you, rubber on there and just hit it. That's, so I definitely, it took me this season to learn, you know, like I said, when I was first road racing, when I was seriously road racing, I was on 21 tubulars like pinner little tires and I brought a lot of that sort of road mentality into gravel. Like, you know what, I was riding 32 [inaudible] at Steamboat gravel, which was nuts. I, you know, it took me the year though to realize every time I went with a bigger tire, I never once regretted it. And I think for anyone listening for almost everyone in gravel events, I just so wholeheartedly recommend, bigger is better when it comes to tires. I think there's probably a limit there, but if you're trying to optimize for gravel event and thinking about going with a smaller tire, I just, I don't see that being a smart choice for almost beyond the, like you said, the very pointy end of a race. Even those guys. Ted King was, was never on smaller than I think 36. And so yeah, those, Ted had mentioned that in my conversation with him as well. He's like, I've never regretted going fatter on the tires and it, I mean, it makes sense. I think there's, there probably is an edge to that as you said. I mean, if you're racing a salsa cutthroat 29 to four, you're probably a little bit got a bigger weapon than you needed for Steamboat gravel for example. But stick in that, you know, the 700 by 40 category and you're pretty good, you're still still fast. But you know, if you're a middle of the pack rider, you can still plow through plenty of stuff comfortably. Exactly. I think between 35 and 42 is sort of the sweet spot. Yeah. Yeah. And then depending on where you live, I mean, I, I'm a broken record on my six 50 B 40 sevens here in Marin County, but that's just what I have in front of me. Well, that's sort of my next step is I just I was in a revolve wheel launch this fall and it was actually the first time that I rode six fifties on gravel. And so I'm a new to that world and I liked I was on I think a 46 or 48. And yeah, it was great. And like, so every time I've stepped up to a little bigger tire, I'm like, Nope, this is even better. So I think next year I might be messing around with six 50 and even bigger tires. Yeah, you think about it, you and I, you and I met up in Bentonville this year pre-writing, the big sugar gravel course, and I brought 700 by forties with me thinking, Oh, this is going to be sort of more Midwest ms Midwestern style, rolling Hills and gravel and I won't need something big. And I left thinking that when I come back in 2020 probably ride six 50 B just so I just don't have to think about it on those chunky Rocky gravel roads they have in Arkansas. I've heard people say that six 50 B, we'll soon, it's in a couple of years it'll be this standard for gravel. So I think that's interesting to note where we are now and I'm in a couple of years. It might even be just that. That's, that's the norm. Yeah. And hopefully that'll push course design a little bit as well. So shifting to that, you know, as you sort of traveled across the country that you've obviously participated in a wide variety of events from, you know, like a Belgian waffle ride, which really demands a big road skillset to stay at that front of that race with a majority from a mileage perspective being on road, obviously the off road portion often dictates who's going to win or lose. You've got that, you've got crusher in the Tuscher, which is very road off-road, mixed terrain. And then you've got something like Kanza and I dunno, maybe Steamboat gravel, which is majority dirt. How do you think about those different courses and what were your experiences, you know, sort of in the front end of those races? Well, I don't know that I was always in the front end. I was in, I was lucky enough to be up there sometimes. I like the mixture of road off road. It feels so cool to get on pavement after you've been on a big section of, of gnarly gravel. It's like, you know, tarmacs never felt so good. And so that's a fun experience. But you know, something that I questioned with that is just these gravel events all of them that I've done have been on open roads. And when you get big groups of riders on open paved roads I just worry about that. Especially when there's a competitive nature to the, the ride. So I would prefer that these events stay as rural as possible and away from as many cars as possible. So usually that means majority dirt. And so I, I think the, as the sport evolves, I think it will just stay more and more gravel. Did you see, you know, on the events that had a mix of road and, but a mix literally mixed into the mileage. So my understanding of Belgian waffle ride is it's a lot of road up front and then the bigger off-road sections. But I'm curious like how the tactics evolve when you hit road sections in the middle of the course, if people tend to group up and that becomes a big differentiator between you're either in a pack or you're not in a pack. Yeah, I mean at a ride like Belgian waffle, if you're alone and you hit the road, if there's a group within sight you know, that's, you have to make an important decision there to either buckle down and try to close that gap. Or what I actually recommend is taking a break, you know, get off your bike and take a pee, grab some food and get in the next group. I think people, you know, these rides are so long. I think you'd be, I'd be surprised if you regretted that decision. And that's what I did a lot this year. If I was, even if I was in a group that, that I was, it was too hard for me. There were a lot of times where I'd, I'd eat food, take a stretch. And then, you know, in traditional road racing, when you get dropped from the group you're in, your sort of, your only goal is to get back in that group. But in gravel it's like you, there's just another, you just hop right in this next group and it's a whole new group of people to chat with. And I was one of my favorite aspects of gravel. So I'm remembering a moment of great regret and grind Duro where a riding buddy of mine was futsing with something right before the road section and a big group rode by us and we clearly didn't leave in time to join it. And he's like, no, no, no, let's chase. And I agreed and it was a horrible mistake and we just chased the entire road section where, and then when we stopped at the lunch stop, we realized there was a group of 40 that came in about a minute later that we could have [inaudible]. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's I think that's one of the most interesting aspects of gravel. I think it shouldn't be overlooked that, you know, I spent a lot of time as a road racer getting dropped. I think a lot of road racers experience that and you, you're dropped from the group and it's like your day is over and that's just not the case in gravel. And you, you had these really nice chance to reset and rejoin a group and I think that's the best. Yeah. And I think you can even generalize that point even further for the listener who maybe hasn't signed, ever signed up for a gravel event. You literally can start with the top pros that are racing this sport and all your friends and lots of people you've never met and you toe the line with them and you're going to drop back. It's going to separate it, but it's rare you're ever riding by yourself and you always will have an adventure in these well-designed events and it's going to be a great day out. And you don't really, I find personally like I have no concept of where I am in the race. I just have a concept that I'm enjoying myself. Well that's because where you are, the race is pretty irrelevant. The relevant thought is yeah, how am I doing? How am I, have I been eating? Am I looking around? Am I enjoying this? Am I chatting with people? Like you could, that's totally you. You hit it spot on that there is no single narrative of the race. I mean, people will talk about the winners, but with an all day experience, it's so individual. There just, there isn't a a need to compare yourself versus a group that's an hour in front of you or three hours behind you or whatever. You're just all out there on the bike. Yeah, and I think there's a, there's an interesting parallel for me too. My experience is mountain biking where you know, you go to a place like bend, Oregon and you, you ride there awesome trail systems and you finish a section and you just want a high five and hug the person next to you even if you don't know him. And gravel has those elements. And you know, that's one of the things that I, I hope course designers always keep in mind. I don't want it to be just as a straight up a contest of who has the most horsepower. We want skill to be involved and we want the writers to push themselves out of their comfort zone. So for some it may be, you know, riding a, a steep paved or sorry. Yeah, you know, off road fire, road climb, that may be, it's a pure test of skill. But for others that may be a Rocky single track section that they, they've never experienced anything like on a drop bar bike. Yeah, clear the line. It was fun at grind dura this year, you know, the, the final climb was just a beast and people were off walking. But then if you were able to ride it, everyone was cheering you on. And I love that. It's like we're all just out here playing bikes and I'm celebrating the effort From your, your 2019 calendar. Are there a couple events that really stood out as being awesome and can't miss? I would spit. A lot of people have asked me that question and I keep going back to the Oregon trail gravel stage race outside of bend. That was a five day point-to-point race and I would really I'm excited to see more events of that style where you're out for multiple days. Something changes within the individual. And I think within the group when you're a few days into it's like, it's the feeling that you have at the end of a gravel ride where people are high five in and smiles and hugs and laughter, but then you just get to do it again the next day and it just, it grew and, and by the end it felt like there's like a little family and I didn't want to say goodbye to people. It was so fun. So that was definitely a major highlight. And I think I'm surprised that there aren't more events already like that. I thought, I thought you might say that. And we did interview Chad Sperry earlier on about the Oregon trail gravel grinder before the event had actually happened. And I hear ya. I have done a couple you know, week long mountain bike stage races where they were moving tents every night and there's a sense of community and really this sense of adventure that's unlocked in a way that a single day race can't touch. Absolutely. Yeah. If there's something special about it, it's the same feeling you'd get if you do a river trip or those multi-day, you sort of feel almost like, I think it may be taps into something primal for us. And we're like these nomadic creatures moving along. It's just a very it's a fun way to spend a few days with, with other great people. I highly recommend it for anyone considering their calendar of 2020 for a stage race. Absolutely. And I mean similar, I'd similarly recommend just the concept of bike packing, whether it's going hotel to hotel or carrying your own stuff. Just the idea of pointing your bike in a direction and going is so good for the soul. Yup. Yeah. And this is like this bike packing. Totally. There's something special too about, you know, having your, just your stuff for the day and your bike. It's really nice to ride without gear. Your bike just handles so much better. You, you F you can climb better. And so the, the experience is just, it's such a delight. I guess. It's a treat to not have to carry all your stuff and just makes the riding that much more special. Yeah, exactly. And then you get a course like the Oregon trail gravel grinder that is taking you into real wilderness. You get so much deeper in than you ever could have in a one day race obviously. And you get this just this massive adventure all under the guise of racing your gravel bike With a bunch of other people. And that's the real, you know, anyone can go out and ride the Oregon trail route for free whenever they want and they should. That's, people should be doing these events with friends on non-event day. But I think something that's so special is the people that you end up meeting at these events is really what makes it, you do it because everyone else is there. Yeah. And you, there's this unique thing where you might show up with your friends to start a race like that, but at the end of the day, the, each terrain and your individual ability levels are going to dictate where you sit. And it's this great opportunity that you find other people at your exact talent level that you just sort of randomly run into every day and they become your riding buddies even though you'd never met them before. It's such a cool thing when I guess the combination of when you find someone that you ride with well and then you also find out that you can jam conversationally. It's, that's one of the best things. It's like there's something magic there. It's it's very special, no doubt about it. So you've been involved in the gravel scene for a number of years, both as an athlete and a journalist. The last few years we've seen a lot of professional road athletes start to either dip their toe or embrace fully these quote unquote alternative calendars. What do you think about the influence of these new pros, perhaps big name pros from the roadside of sport jumping in? Is it, is it a risk of changing gravel? Is it a, is it a net positive? Actually, it's great. I think no one at the New York city marathon is bummed that the fastest runners in the world are up front. Trying to break world records. And I think that that atmosphere at big running marathons is it helpful for it? It's just like these are the best athletes in the world doing their, their craft at a level that's, that's truly remarkable and I think that it serves to inspire the rest of the field. So I, I'm full favor of having pros at these gravel events. So, you know, obviously there's such great mass participation numbers emerging with gravel and you have these events that are selling out lickety split. I wonder how the sponsorship model is going to change because I think it would be a shame to sort of imagine the team in iOS of gravel coming in with a massive war chest of money and hiring, you know, literally the, you know, the best 10 athletes and gravel and sort of dominating the scene. What do you think, how do you think the sort of sponsorship dollars are gonna flow and what would be a sustainable model for gravel to kind of envision? Well I hope That that doesn't happen. And if it does almost sort of feel like we've been down that road with other aspects of cycling that have grown and then receded. I think gravel is just fundamentally a different game. And I think success in large tr in like a, on a macro level for, for gravel comes from focusing on the everyday rider. The person that invests in a gravel bike and goes out with their buddies and does some rides, maybe does a backpacking trip, enters an, I think that's the focus. And if we start seeing gravel teams and tactics, and I mean, maybe that will happen, but I don't think that to me is nearly as interesting as, you know, when we saw, what was it, 16,000 people trying to sign up for big sugar. That's, that's where we're, that's the interesting part of gravel these days. Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting as someone who sort of tries to put it two or three big events on the calendar, for me that means it keeps me honest in my training and you know, I have to stay focused to stay fit and healthy to get to the start line. Yeah, it's, it's, it's great for the industry because it gets me out on my bike. It's not like, you know, I had a year of doing crits for example. I didn't really think too much about it. I could just show up to a crit and do it and my sort of weekly fitness was, was fine. But with these gravel events, you really just need to put your equipment through the tests, through your body, through the test, and that leads to more purchasing decisions. You're going to go through tires, maybe you're going to think about things differently in terms of your equipment set up. So it does have all these positive elements for the bike industry as a whole. Sure. And there's been so much great innovation in the bike industry around the gravel world. And I think that's only gonna continue. And so it's fun as a consumer. I think the bike industry loves it. It's yeah, I wonder, I guess how far can we innovate at the end of the day? These are just, it's a bike going across a, a rough road. I guess the next big question with the bike industry is E bikes in these gravel events. Yeah. And I, I, I want to say I've witnessed one or two sort of sitting in there that that could be a warm hole that we may or may not want to go down. Yeah. Well it's a, it's a wormhole for the future cause I think it's not going to go away. It's e-bikes are, you know, they're not, they're everywhere in Europe. They're coming to the U S they're coming to gravel line and you're going to see an E an E category in each. I think each main frame that these big manufacturers are going to have a, they're going to have a regular, what do people call them? Analog bikes and an e-bike version of, of every bike they make. Yeah, I suspect you're right. And I, you know, I'm certainly one that I don't begrudge people who need help to get out there and experience the wilderness to get the help they need. Hm. Yeah. I will stay away from the rabbit hole. Yeah. I wonder if there's other, other sort of mass participation models that the industry needs to be looking towards. Like marathoning you mentioned earlier to kind of see the, of How we can continue to grow and have it so that, you know, of the 16,000 people that were trying to register for that race and how do we actually get more of them to safely participate in these races so they can have the experiences? Yeah. Well, I think part of it is celebrating the effort and you know, gravel is these, these events are long and difficult and there's nothing like having that beer at the end of a, of a long, hard day on the bike. There's something so rewarding about it. And I think to try to think that gravel is just for fun and just it's like you have to continue to, I guess celebrate that it's difficult and that, you know, running a marathon is difficult and that's why people are there. And instead of, I guess making that seems to Epic, it's like you can just embrace that, Hey, this is gonna be physically challenging and and yeah, I signed up for it and here I am. And that's just accepting that that's part of the experience. And it's actually part of what makes it feel so rewarding at the end. Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that all event organizers need to kind of be conscious of. You know, you, you want to embrace someone who wants to ride a short route. But I do think, you know, the marquee level events should all all be long enough that it's a day long test of your fortitude and adventure and strength. It's really interesting actually. Yeah. As these, you know, a lot of these bigger events have a 30 or a 50 mile, which I'm not here to say that we shouldn't be trying to get as many new people in the sport, and maybe that means doing, you know, a shorter event, but you don't see that at a marathon. Yeah, that's a big marathon. They don't have the little or aK category, or at least I don't think they do. Yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. You do see it in the ultra marathon scene where you might have, you know, a 10 K at 20 K and a 50K and a hundred K on the same course. Yes. Umut it is, it is interesting to think about. I, I think someone mentioned to me, like, for them it was great because their partner could come and show up and do an event that met their ability level and it meant they could come on that trip versus being excluded from a trip. You know, one thing that I think is important, so here's, here's my take. These shorter distance events are rad. Umnd they're important in getting new people in the door. I don't think that they should have awards and podiums and metals and that just shouldn't. To me, this is again, my opinion. Umhat's not the focus. I don't even think that should be the focus in the, in the, in the long events. But especially getting people interested. I just, I dunno, I th I think it, it leads us down a road. We've already traveled in the road racing sphere mountain bike racing just traditional racing and focusing on podiums and results in awards, I think isn't how we stoke this fire the best going forward. Yeah, I'm certainly hoping we do not evolve to having short track gravel racing. Some might call that cyclocross, right? That is, that is actually just another word for cyclocross. But I could see, you know, what if they had a, a fun night race before the event that was on a, on a short, you know, like there, there could be a, you know, gravel's gonna continue a format. It doesn't have gravel, doesn't have to be this hundred, 150, 200 mile all day. Schlog it's gonna evolve and there's going to be little niche events and all sorts of different styles. So I think we'll see that actually coming from going forward. It'll be interesting. I remember sort of racing mountain bikes back, back at Mount snow and they had sort of even random community driven events during the Norman national weekend where they, they, they even had a naked parking lot. Correct. Yeah. I, yeah, I think those, those style of riots are fun and just keeping them low key, keeping it about connection, celebrating the bike, just there it is. It's, it's fun first with those and then you can have sort of the all day suffer fast where the fun is in just accomplishing this, this big, this big goal and you know, overcoming the day. But I think those less Epic events matter as well. Yeah. I think Jeremiah Bishop said something that I think is t-shirt worthy, which is keep gravel weird. Yeah, totally. That's something worthwhile. So you're, you're actually, you've got another big year ahead of you in 2020. What are your plans and what are you most excited to do? You know, it's funny, I going into 20, 20, I was thinking I would really like to do more low key small events. Last year I was at kind of all these main events. And I, it looks now there's just, there's so many big successful, well-run events that I can't not go to them and it art, it almost just filled up my whole calendar. So I think, I think maybe if and when this endless gravel is no longer endless, I'll look forward to doing some smaller, more local events. But yeah, I'll be at sort of all the main gravel events of the season. Starting off. Yeah. Yeah. Are you looking to sort of follow a similar path where you're, you're spending a lot of time in the van Between events? I'll be out in the van and it's actually, I'm really looking forward to being, I missed the van already and yeah, I'm looking forward to being back Back out there. Fun. Well, hopefully you'll have to find some smaller events in between point a and point B that you can hit to kind of break up the drive and fill your quotient. [inaudible] Yeah. And I really think that's where you find that weirdos of gravel is that small events and sort of off beaten places. That's where there's the soul of gravel is still very much intact and you don't see, you know, big sponsor expos and fancy finish line presentations. It's just a bunch of people out riding bikes and maybe drink a beer afterwards. So are you saying, Can I have a finish line without a pump up banner and big flags? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Well, right on Marshall. Thanks. I appreciate spending the time talking to me and I, you know, I appreciate your perspective on gravel in the future and am looking forward to following your journey across the States this summer. Yeah. Craig, thank you. And thanks for what you're doing. I think it's important to keep these conversations about gravel going and I think answering questions, helping people. I think all of us that are in the gravel community right now that are fired up and stoked and have gravel bikes and gear, it's our duty to spread this to people that might be, that are on the verge of, of interest and to say, Hey, this could be for you. Invite people out for a ride, invite people to sign up for an event. This is how we grow the sport. And I think it, it's, it's everyone that's already in it that already understands how cool it is. I'm saying, Hey, this is, this is for more people to do it. So I'm excited to keep doing that. I think you're doing that and to all the listeners out there I hope that it's the same. So let's stoke the fire Right on. I think that's a great takeaway. Thanks, Marshall. Yeah, great. Thank you. Thanks again to Marshall for joining the pod this week. What an awesome journey he had in 2019. And what an exciting year he's got planned in 2020. Definitely check out his musings, his writings. He's a great writer and it's got great contacts in the sport, so I encourage you to follow him on social media channels and check out his work over at cycling tips in this week's can't let it go. I wanted to talk a little bit about good rain gear. It's been a wet winter here in Northern California and I was really fortunate to have invested in some great rain gear. In many ways this goes hand in hand with a previous, can't let it go about gravel bags because when she have a bag on your bike you can just shove rain gear in and have it there. In case of an emergency. I've been riding in some Gore gear, which has been phenomenal. I can't believe how compressible these jackets are. You can get it into a pocket or into one of these small bags pretty easily and they double up nicely as an extra layer coming off the mountain. So what I've found is I've just been leaving it in my frame bag and anytime I get to the top of a climb, I'm just pulling on that jacket, whether it's raining or shining. Just keeping that extra warm thin, which has been awesome. But in the rain, you know, these shake dry jackets have been phenomenal in that you literally can stay dry in a downpour, which has been amazing and super useful, at least in my commuting lifestyle. So whether it's this year or next year, definitely put that on your list of gear that you want to get. I can't recommend having a nice lightweight rain jacket in your arsenal of gravel gear. As always, I appreciate you listening. If you're wondering what you can do to help support the podcast rating and reviews are incredibly helpful in discovery. It doesn't take much time and five-star reviews really go a long way in spreading the word. So I'd love it if you could take a moment and do that for me this week. As always, I welcome your feedback. Hit me up on social media channels or directly craig@thegravelride.bike. Until next time, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
The Salsa Cutthroat has been THE gravel bike for the bikepacking set. If you look at the sport on a spectrum from 'road +' to 'bikepacking', the 2020 model is squarely on the 'bikepacking' side of the spectrum. In this episode, we hear from Salsa engineer and product manager's, Peter Hall and Joe Meiser about everything that went into the Cutthroat. Salsa Website Salsa Instagram Automated transcription (please excuses the errors). Good day everyone and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast I've got two guests from salsa cycles and QBP talking about the 2020 salsa cutthroat. We've got Peter Hall and Joe Meiser from the team that have been intimately involved in the design and manufacturing of the salsa cutthroat. It's a really interesting bike for this podcast as we've sort of tended towards middle of the road gravel bikes. In terms of tire width, we've touched on some gravel plus, excuse me, some road plus bikes, but we've never really danced on the other end of this category, which is where the salsa cutthroat clearly occupies with 29 inch wheels, 2.4 tire inch tire capabilities. It's a pretty massive departure from sort of the more road oriented gravel bikes. So I was really excited to talk to them about this bike and the intention behind the design. It was really heavily influenced by the 2,700 mile tore divide route and those ultra distance events that we've talked about a little bit on this podcast. So with that, let's jump right in. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Absolutely. It's always a good place for us to get started. To learn a little bit more about your backgrounds as cyclist and since we're going to be talking about a very specific product, maybe you guys can also talk about what your roles are over there at salsa professionally. Sure. Yeah. So I'm Pete hall. I'm one of the design engineers here at salsa. Ah, I, I think the best way to describe what kind of cyclists dimes I'm at. At my core, I'm a mountain biker. Certainly don't discriminate against the like gravel or pavement and absolutely love them. Love both, especially gravel. But you know, I think single track will for me always be the best. I don't know how many years I've been in the bike industry now have, I've never held drop outside the bike industry. I know that like shops [inaudible] Yeah. So my name is Joe Meiser. I'm the senior product manager here at salsa cycles. I was a lead product manager on the new 20, 20 cutthroat. You know, I've been at QBP for 15 years. I've held roles as an industrial designer. I've led product development across our brands and I've led product in salsa full time for the last four years. I came into the brand at the time when the first Cutthroat was being launched and had the opportunity to work on the second generation, which has been pretty cool. My background as a cyclist is pretty wide ranging. Like P I would say I'm a mountain biker with a drop bar problem and I think that's probably reflected in a lot of our drop bar bikes. I started racing gravel in two and seven. The first gravel race I ever did was the trans Iowa and it sorta quickly Korean from there. You know, the vernacular here is gravel roads and rural roads. And so I was racing events like Ragnar rock 100 in Redwing in the Driftless region in Minnesota. I was racing the on Monzo in 2008 and about that time and decided that I would go out and do the tour divide and we as a brand team had kind of started to see this niche of gravel and started designing bikes, kind of led that direction with big tire fit, just breaks, so on. And so I actually raised the tour divide in 2009 and was able to do that on the Fargo, which was really the predecessor to the cutthroat. And and then got to be part of the team when we launched the first gen cutthroat and now this one. That's awesome. That's awesome. I'm actually really excited to talk to you guys because as I mentioned offline, I think on this podcast, you know, we've certainly covered road plus bikes and then bikes that are sort of in the sort of sweet spot of gravel of 700 by 40 or six four, six 50 by 47. And the cutthroat and salsa as a brand has always kind of occupied this more extreme and pending towards bike packing and ultra distance events. And you're really the first company that we've had on board to talk about that. When we think about the design of the cutthroat, can you go through some of those key elements that make it sort of more closely related potentially to a mountain bike than a road bike? Yeah, sure. I think the really the biggest place to start there is it actually uses mountain bike tires. You know, it fits up to a 29 by two four inch tire designed around a hundred mil suspension fork as well. The geometry is definitely more influenced on the 2020 cutthroat from mountain bikes. Slacker head tube angles, a little bit to deeper seat tubes. You know, we slacked this one out to 69 degrees for more of that stability of for mountain biking. When you're careening down a single track or you know, if two are divided, you've got a lot of gravel roads, nasty gravel roads, two tracks, mountain passes, that kind of stuff. So the stability is really prized there. I think part where this thing of the cutthroat is influenced by more of the roadside then would be obviously the drop bars. But the big one I would say would be the drive train we put on this. It's a boost mountain bike spacing, but we worked with a race facing Easton to put chain rings on it so you can get road gravel chain rings like a 46 thirties, what we spec it with. So you have a two by road your drive train. I'm on a mountain bike platform, so you can really get a really wide range of daring for the really wide range of experiences of the cutthroat can do. Interesting. And how, you know, you sort of referenced the kind of tore divide type writing that has really kind of infused the design philosophy or this bike. What are the elements of that particular ride that kind of demand this type of bike versus kind of a narrow retired gravel bike? You know, for us, this goes back to the original Fargo and designing that bike. You know, when, when I started to plan for the tour divide one of the things that I really recognized was that the biggest issue that writers were having was hand and wrist issues and they're almost all riding XC mountain bikes at the time with flat bars. Some riders had started to put arrow bars on for different positioning, some comfort and maybe a little bit of an Aero advantage. And I looked at that event and I looked at the information that was out at the time in 2005, six, seven, just as blogs were starting to kind of bow out. And I thought, you know, this is really ultimately just the longest gravel race in the world and the road that it's on while it's billed as a mountain bike route. It's rural gravel roads and it's stuff that we're riding these bikes on today. And so we as a team built that Fargo around a dirt drop, right experience. I mean, in a sense influencer, I would say absolutely influenced by, you know, bikes like some of the Cunninghams from, you know, the early nineties and late eighties. I've got pictures of, of Cunningham's on my, still on my board at my desk from that time frame. And so we looked at it, we said give riders multiple hand positions, give them option to be more comfortable and give them that choice. And that's where Fargo came from. And that's ultimately where cut throat comes from, is looking at that experience and designing for that experience. Then on the tour divide route, are you getting into technical single track that sort of puts it a drop bar bike rider in a more challenging position than a straight bar. You know, there, there are I think roughly 30 to 40 miles of single track on that route. Coming off the backside of the pass after you come out of Breckenridge, there's an option. And then as you get down into a silver city, New Mexico and you're in the healing mountains North of there, there's a section of the continental divide trail that's open to bikes. It's used and you know, it is technical, single track. But if you look at the overall mileage, you know, roughly 30 to 40 miles of 2,750 miles is single track. And so the bike is fully capable of riding single track and there are a few die hard there dropped single track riders that they use it that way. But really it's about riding those rockier rougher mountain passes where you know, you're just sending through rocks that are, you know, the size of softballs and basketballs and that sort of situation versus you know, the really buff single or a buff gravel that we experienced and gravel races on rural farm roads. Yeah, I've got to imagine also the volume of the tires that you selected for this model play an important role when you're adding a lot of weight in terms of bags and gear you're needing for a multi day event. Ultimately that's the case. You know, you're riding those big roads and you might be able to get away with less tire, but less tire means, you know, less load support. It leans a little bit less comfort. It means you got to pay a little bit more attention to tire pressures. You know, you may be more prone to flat on high-speed descents when you're coming across a water guard or a cattle guard at the descent bottom until most people just tend to trend towards the 2.1 2.2 on that tour divides specific experience. Yeah, I was getting that feedback. A colleague of mine who actually see it shares the same bike as I do was riding the trans Northern California on six 50 B by 47 and he said to me, you know, nothing I encountered challenged that tire width but the weight on the bike had me laying around with air pressure so much that when it was comfortable I was bottoming out and flatting and if I was pumping it up too hard, it was just super uncomfortable. So it left me thinking like the bike I have, but is by no means really what I'd want for something like the tour divide for exactly the reasons you just described. I think that's fair to say Is speaking of handling, you know, you obviously guys have spent a lot of times thinking about the types of loads and even built features in to help the port bags and different caring configurations that you might have in some of these long distance events. And you talk about some of those elements of the frame and fork design. Yeah, of course. I think we, you know, we've, we consider probably your best place to carry most of your gear is in the frame bag. It's down low, it's secure. It's in line with the center plan of the bike. It's really stable there. You obviously have your seat bag for a lot of stuff, but most of your weight really should be kept down low for handling and stability. So on the 2020 cutthroat, they actually increased the front triangle space and designed a new bag that has a little thumbscrews that mounted onto them. So there's a whole bunch of [inaudible] rib nuts on the inside of that front triangle. So it's, it's a really clean frame bag integration on not a bunch of Velcro straps to wear at your paint and that kind of stuff. And then on the fork, on both sides of the fork, we have three pack mounts that can take a water bottle or something like or anything. KJ HD and bag she can carry up to, I believe it's eight pounds per side in the anything cage. The handling was it's better to put extra weight, let small extra weight on your fork really helps to slow down the steering. And the mechanical trail we designed the bike around really plays nicely with that extra weight on your handlebars from a say like in anything cradle and then the anything cage having things on your fork. Okay. So your thought about sort of slowing down the steering by the fact that, you know, it's likely there might be some weight put on there. Yeah. Interesting. And I think I read that the bike is also suspension adjusted so you can put a suspension fork on there as well if that's your jam. Yeah, it certainly is. Yeah. We can fit up to like a 29 inch, 29 inch wield a hundred mil travel fork. You know, we see that you lose a mounting point, but you gain a lot of comfort for particularly rough, particularly rugged routes then. Yeah. Did you find Joe on your own tour divide experience that that comfort was a challenge? Were you on a rigid fork? I assume? I, I, when I wrote I was on a field bike and you know, the steel bike really did help damp vibration on the route. And I think that's, you know, something we really saw an opportunity to do with the first gen cutthroat. We added that class five feature into the back end of our frame. So we have that technology in all of our carbon, all road bikes, and that's really building an inherent damping into the frame as well as tuning the layup of each frame to handle vibration coming the road and really isolate the rider. You know, and that's not uncommon with, you know, after market accessories now and seed posts and stems and that sort of thing. As well as what other brands are doing. And we did that on a new bike as well with with its fork, we added a feature similar to class five where we added some for AFT flex to that frame and engineered that fork to compliment the frame while you're riding it. Now from my perspective, I really like a suspension fork on the cutthroat. I, my current cutthroat bill, my favorite build now is a RockShox RS one on the front of it and a dropper post on that bike. And it's a lot of fun to ride that way and I hope to see more gravel bikes kind of come in to the ability to handle a suspension and suspension product for gravel in a lot of ways I would say for, you know, shorter events. I had the opportunity to go do grander O Japan as a launch of that. That set up was amazing. It was super fun to ride that course in Japan on the cutthroat for events like the tour divide. I wouldn't say I'd throw it out, but I would certainly do a lot more evaluation to make sure that my fork was going to hold up to that distance. So it's, you know, it's a weight factor, but it's also a performance, you know, is that forking I need service. Am I going to have bushing issues or seal issues during the event? And there are some recorded examples of time during the tour divide where forks have needed to be rebuilt in Steamboat or silver city before hitting the finish line because of seal issues and heat buildup and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I gotta imagine with the extra weight on the front of your bike, the suspension is taking a little bit more abuse than it might do under your average body weight size. Certainly that, and I think the higher speeds and the smaller vibration that suspension forks see during that type of activity versus off-road mountain biking where we, we tend to have higher impact Is speaking of, of, of tuning the carbon. Since you're, you've got a bike that's potentially used in its home environment with just the rider weight, but you've also clearly built a bike that's going to carry load around it. Are you, are you having to kind of up the stiffness of it thinking that, you know, an average 170 pound rider on a 56 centimeter frame is actually going to be 200 pounds with the additional weight they may be carrying? We do a little bit the rider gear is a percentage wise, quite as quite a small amount compared to the actual rider weight. So we do tune the stiffness of the bike to be a little stiffer than like say if this was designed specifically to be an unloaded like a single long day, kind of like a Warbird. This is definitely stiffer and pedaling and torsion in the handling for the front end. But honestly about the same, we tuned the VRS to be about the same. The chain stays and and fork flexibility to be pretty close because they undergo relatively similar loads. The weight is generally further forward in the frame and not really affecting say how the seat stays or flexing. If we had one to two specifically designed weight to be used on a rear pannier that something that's designed to, to bolt around that rear end, then we would definitely need to consider that more. But honestly the, the, the Rider-Waite makes such a larger difference than the gear you're carrying unless you're carrying like led spoons or something. Yeah, I imagine so. It's interesting to me, you know, as the sport on the racing side of the sport, you've obviously got a spectrum of events from the, you know, the ultra distance stuff like tour divide and, and multi-day events, you know, across the Midwest and, and Iowa and different places. But you also have things like dirty Kanza with the DK 200 and I can't help but think, you know, for the average rider having a little bit of suspension via the bigger tires or even pure suspension on the bike starts to yield a lot of, a lot of benefits. You have the tradeoff of the weight, but you know, being able to stay comfortable all day long I think is going to help a lot of average writers get across those big finish lines. Absolutely. I mean, we've Talked about this a lot as the tour divide bike, right? So we're talking about a bike that salsa designed for an event that annually roughly 150 riders start For some perspective. And that's, you know, that's something that we chose to do as a brand because we thought it was important, but that product wouldn't be around if only 150 riders annually purchased it. But you certainly see it as the primary bicycle at the start of the tour divide. Annually. We very quickly found that riders in gravel events, particularly dirty Kanza did want a bike like the cutthroat and we saw it quickly spill over into those spaces. You talked earlier about the big sugar gravel event that the founders of dirty Kanza and lifetime are starting in Arkansas. Well, Jim commons, a good friend of ours, someone who we've been involved with for a number of years with dirty Kanza, he rides a cutthroat in the gravel in Kansas and that Surface down there, that base chert rock that they have, how rough those roads are. When you get out onto the open range, he really appreciates the big volume tires. And he talks about how he's been on group rides with other riders in Emporia and they're on graveling and having to hold that, that line of the two track, and he'll ride up on the Ridge between the two track because he's got two on tires and a bike that's really incredibly stable. So it's much more capable in that environment. And then the other part is the fit of it. It's a much more upright bike naturally because of the longer the axle, the crown on the fork, because it is suspension corrected. Your front ends a little bit higher. And so writers who want to be a little bit more upright have that comfort level writers that want those bigger tires for the rough roads, Creek crossings want that. And so we quickly realized that the bike was seeing that secondary use case. And that was part of our intentionality with this. This current agenda has just launched to the market, particularly around the drive train, the P hall talked to earlier. I've worked at booths at dirty Kanza for a number of years during the expo. And I can pretty much tell you that on the hour I'm going to have a cutthroat rider come by from a version one cut throat and say, how do I get more gears on this? Can I put to buy on this? How do I make this bike more capable of gravel? And that's where that partnership with race, face Easton comes in to play it for salsa and new drive train options like GRX from Shimano. Make it much easier for us to design this bike with big volume tires, 29 inch wheels, and to buy a drive train. And I think that's pretty fantastic that we're able to get all that to work together to create a really awesome experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I can add on that, I [inaudible] Personally, I used my Warbird at dirty Kanza this year, but the year I picked A cutthroat from Michigan's coast to coast gravel race purely because of the comfort of the bike. And then Michigan is just the Sandy place. So those larger volume tires help you float through it. Whereas in Kansas, you're floating through gravel and chunky gravel. In Michigan, you're floating through just the sand. The cutthroat while you, you get more comfort out of it, comfort often equals speed for a lot of people. Especially if you maybe aren't at the pointy end of the race. Trying to win being more comfortable over a 10, 14 plus hour a day makes a big, big difference. Yeah, absolutely. Could you describe the Warbird a little bit for us? So Warbird is salsa is gravel race bike. A Warbird was the first gravel race bike to exist in the industry. We started that product from around, I think we had to nail it down. I think we'd say we launched the first one right around 2014. It seems like forever ago for us, but it's actually, it's not that long ago. And it's now on its fourth generation. We launched that last year in 2019 and you'll see a lot of the same features shared between control and Warbird. And so you'll see a bike that's designed for up to a 700 by 45 tire or six 50 by 47, but you'll see that the shorter axle, the crown, you'll see to see that lower stack, that ability to get into that more, you know, road or gravel race position. Okay. So at a, at a simple level, like we're talking different wheel size and different tire with capabilities up to the cutthroat being sort of maxing out at one 89 by 2.4. Correct? That's absolutely correct, yes. Yeah. Got ya. I, you know, I think it's interesting in the conversations I have and just anecdotally with the writers I interact with, you know, there's loads of gravel athletes who are coming from the road side. They're, the jump to the cutthroat just seems absolutely massive to them when they're just thinking, Oh, I'm riding a road bike off road. But I do think, and I have seen over the last or years or so that people are embracing more and more mountain bike style bikes and mountain bike technologies on the gravel scene because they're, they're just seeing, they can simply go faster and be more comfortable. Absolutely. I think you guys are ahead of the curve there actually, And appreciate that. You know, I'm not, I'll take a second to, you know, we recognize that you talked about road racers road riders coming off of a more traditional road bike where it's, it's quick, it's snappy, it's death. For salsa, we see an opportunity to really meet riders with how they're coming into the sport and make a product for them wherever they may be at. So, you know, cut. One of the jokes for us in the cutthroat is it's the mountain bikers gravel bike, right? It's not a big leap for someone who's been riding mountain bikes to go, well, this, sure. Big fat tires. Why wouldn't I want to do that? Warbirds really kind of that more dead center gravel race bike you know, there's a lot of competition in that space over the last several years with other brands coming into gravel. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have our war road, which is our endurance road bike. But even as a road bike, it's fits up to a 700 by 35 or six 50 by 47. And that bike, if you look at it in the purest form and the geometry and tire fit and handling switch pretty closely into the endurance road space, but with some additional capability to haul gear, hallowed do an occasional gravel race that's not incredibly aggressive. And so if you have that rider that is coming off the road and they're like, man, all these gravel bikes are really kind of slow and they're really long and I want something snappy, or that war road is kind of that choice for them. And so we have three performance carbon gravel bike for riders across the board. Yeah, I think that's super important to note. And I, I'm a, I'm a big fan of a gravel bike and a couple of different sets of wheels and riding that on the road. So I love one, it sounds like in your, in your, in your suite it would probably be the, the Warbird where it would fit my fancy super off-road capable, but slap of a select set of road wheels on there and you're not really feeling like you're missing a beat. Yeah, I would tend to agree with that. It's that you know, best all around her ultimately for a rider who's gonna have their gravel bike. Yeah. And in talking to you guys, I mean listeners know here in Marin County, I feel like I'm squarely in in mountain bike territory in terms of what I consider a gravel riding and I like something aggressive with a big volume tire. I feel like I'm probably a pretty good cut throat customer and maybe even as I think Joe was mentioning, a suspended cut throat would be a hell of a lot of fun here in Marin County. I think that's the case. You know, maybe in a lot of places where, and Marines, this kind of place where you have a lot of of back roads. But then you have like those single track cut throughs and that sort of thing. And I think that's one of the things that make cut, makes cutthroat fun as you can, you know, pop along the Creek for us or pop along the river and ride some single track pop back out, you know, hit the pavement, hit a alley, cut through whatever the case might be. And in a variety of situations. Have a good time. Yeah. Joseph is driving his commute home right there, pretty much. I love it. I love it. Well, yeah, I know it's an exciting time to be in the industry and an exciting time to be a consumer. I think one of the drivers for me starting this podcast was really my personal journey to figuring out what bike is right for me and every day I don't think I'm actually getting any closer to it because there's just so many. And the key is to just find a bike that has the level of versatility that you're looking for and figure out the right wheelhouse you're in. So if you're, you know, a big off-road rider, rabbit cutthroat, it'll still work fine on the road, but it's not going to be the fastest thing on your group ride. If being the fastest on your group rides your jam, then it sounds like the Warbird road and get some knobbies to take you on, on gentle off-road trails. Might be the way to go For sure. I think that's a good understanding. Yeah. Well I appreciate the time you guys, I know it's a Friday afternoon and it sounds like Joe's got an enviable commute on the way home, so I don't want to keep you any, any longer. Anything else you want to reveal about 2020 for salsa and where you see this market going? That's a big question. I certainly have a crystal ball of where I think the market is going. You know, I think to echo your statement, there's a myriad of awesome options available to riders out there. And you know, for salsa we wanna like I said, meet that rider where they're at and how they're coming into gravel because there are a huge number of riders still coming into gravel as a discipline and as a, as a sport. I think we'll see a lot more technical advance advancements along the way here without giving too much away. Like I said, I think suspension is going to be interesting and see if we see, you know, forks like the Fox really kind of take off and come into the sport and influence it more so full suspension, gravel bikes, you know, we're starting to see little things like that. There's that intersection of mountain and road going on that's interesting and exciting and it's fun for us to be a part of it as well. Definitely. I think it's interesting to see as what will happen in the next couple of years in the gravel scene as American domestic road racing. The traditional road racing, you know, starts to die out unfortunately. And more and more of that, that group goes to gravel to see how that changes gravel. Look cause I think it's mostly been a lot of influence from mountain bike so far. But it'll be interesting to see how gravel evolves in the next couple of years. You know, world tour pros, retiring to win DK. Yeah, I definitely agree with you on that. I think it's going to be fascinating to see how gravel race organizers are able to keep it dirty, if you will. Meaning keep it weird, keep it fun. I think evidence has shown that a great world tour pro cannot just know the line and expect to win any one of these races. The terrain dictates a lot of how they're going to be successful or whether their traditional road tactics will have any advantages whatsoever. I also think it's going to be interesting as the prize purses and the sponsorship dollars continue to increase in gravel. Will we see some of road pros adopt some of this suspension technology or other things that we've already seen the light bulbs come on about because it's purely gonna make them go faster. To your point about Bentonville, you know there's only certain number of lines that you can go down comfortably on some of those roads and being able to peek out and slam through some river beds and bigger sized rocks. It could be an advantage in some of these races that have those technical elements in the terrain. Yeah, definitely. As a gentleman, I really appreciate the time. I love learning more about the cut throat. It's a a category of bike that's always intrigued me and I'm a huge fan of the tour divide so I appreciate you guys supporting those athletes and giving that perspective in addition to the other elements of the sport that you guys have been focused on. Well thank you. We appreciate your time as well and the ability to kind of share our story and our product. Big thanks to Peter and Joe for joining the podcast this week. It was fun for me geeking out around the tour divide and this type of bike. I don't know about you guys, but every June I am a. Dot watcher. I love watching the tour divide. I love looking at all the rigs, and it was interesting talking to them about the different kind of performance requirements of riding a bike that distance. I have to say, you walk away from a conversation like that. Really thinking about the fun factor of riding these drop our bikes and the cutthroat with those large tires would likely be a hell of a lot of fun, particularly here in Marin County and quite versatile. When you think about the type of off-road adventures you can do with it, fully loaded kind of expedition style out there in the woods. So that's it for this week's podcast. As always, I welcome your feedback. You can hit me craig@thegravelride.bike or on Instagram or Facebook. As always, it's a big help if you can rate or review and definitely share this podcast with friends. Helping with discovery is one of our biggest challenges here at the gravel ride. Until next time, here's defining some dirt under your wheels.
Former World Tour Pro, Peter Stetina joins the podcast this week to discuss his decision to leave the World Tour to race gravel in 2020. Peter Stetina Instagram Automated Transcript (please excuse all typos) Greetings everybody and welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast we've got professional cyclists, Peter Stetina. If you're a fan of professional road cycling, you'll probably recognize Peter's name from his time in the pro Peloton, most recently with the Trek SegraFreddo team, and if you follow the gravel cycling scene closely in November of last year, Peter dropped. What dare I say is a bit of a bombshell. He decided to forego a future in the European Peloton, which was available to him and take a crack at being a gravel privateer. Peter's contract in 2019 allowed him to dabble in a few gravel events and his impact was immediately felt at the front end of the race, having one Belgian raw full ride come second at dirty Kanza and put in a pretty stellar performance in the Leadville 100 mountain bike race. It was great to learn a little bit more about pizza process and making this decision. What is 2020 calendar is looking like and how he plans on modifying his training as a gravel athlete versus his time in the pro Peloton. With that, let's jump right in. Pete, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Well, I usually start off by asking my guests to talk a little bit about your background. I think you've been in the press enough lately that I'll do a little summary in the show notes that people can look into. But suffice it to say your announcement in November of 2019 sent shockwaves through the gravel community when you decided to not continue pursuing your prayer road career over in Europe, which was definitely an option for you and sort of embrace this alternative calendar. Let's start by talking about 2019. Obviously you put your foot in the water and gravel racing and winning BWR and racing and DK and getting second there. What was going through your mind in 2019 as you were doing double duty and what led to the decision for what you're going to be doing in 2020? Yeah. You know, it was, um, it, it started even back in my mind at the end of, uh, 2018 last year. Um, I had had some health problems. I was actually suffering with, um, Epstein BARR virus, which is the precursor to mono all season. And it was undiagnosed and the, the road results weren't clicking, my body wasn't firing. And I was, I was struggling to get the, the contract renewal and you know, I've been doing this a decade. I felt like I had a place in, in the world tour, but it was, you know, just things weren't clicking. And I was second guessing myself and my body and the longevity in the sport. And, um, I kind of saw these races, you know, starting to gain traction. And, you know, I, I started thinking, you know, I wanna I want to experience these. And, um, and then, you know, Trek came back to me and they said like, yeah, you had a good to season, you represent the USA at the world's, like you had some good Italian classics, like, let's jam again. You, you know, we trust you. And so I, you know, I was gonna I was able to sign on again with Trek, but I kind of said, you know, Hey, like some of these events are big in the U S and they make sense and I want to try him. And this is actually totally independent to what the guys over at ETF were doing. I had no idea they were planning this even though Alex houses one of my best buds. Um, you know, he's one of my groomsmen in my wedding. He didn't tell me that was going down. And, uh, um, so it was kinda funny how I, I went to Trek and I said, Hey, I want to do these. And the road team, you know, it's, it's Italian run more or less over in Europe. Uh, they went to Trek marketing in Wisconsin and they just were like, Hey, you know, Pete is kind of putting his foot down. Like he's, he's really adamant about doing this. And Trek Wisconsin said, hell yeah, that makes sense. Like, these races are legit here. Um, and that same week, funnily, funny enough, um, ETF announced their alternative program so it looked like it was, you know, kinda together, but it definitely wasn't at all. Um, it was just circumstance. And, um, and so then, yeah, this year I basically, I, I raced a full world tour calendar. I think I had 82 race days in the world tour plus, um, a handful of alternative events, which was, uh, the Belgian waffle ride, the dirty Kanza Leadville 100 plus. Um, just a couple of local events. A couple of grasshoppers as you guys in North Cal know, and also some bike monkey events like fish rock. Was that difficult with your, sort of, the team management over in Italy to make space for you in the calendar to come back and do that many events? Um, yeah. You know, they, we had it in the contract and they, they had to let me do them. Um, and they supported it 100%. You know, Trek was great about it. Um, it was definitely, it was hard to mentally convince the European management that this makes sense to do because it's just, it's, it's a very unique U S scene right now and Europe world tour road racing is still fine and healthy. You don't have races like the Torah, California folding and all that. So it's, they didn't, they didn't quite understand it, but at the same time they heard, they knew from Trek and I saw that there was this movement going on and they said, yeah, why not? Um, you know, there, I was protected by having it in my contract. You know, cause we did run into a couple issues, uh, later in the year. For example, suddenly a couple guys got sick and crashed and they wanted me at tour Roman D but I already had Belgian waffle ride in my contract. And I kinda, you know, it was like, no guys, like I'm here in California at Belgian waffle ride before California. Like I can't come back to Europe again for the Roman Dee. And they fully respected that and let me race and I think they were happy when I want it, but at the same time they were kind of like, well, Stan is not doing his duty at the world tour too. Right. It's not, not exactly putting points in the team's coffers. Well, you know, it was just, it was a, it was a line to touch him to toe, but at the end of the day, like they really supported it. I mean they gave me the custom bikes for dirty Kanza and all the equipment I needed and I then they admitted they saw the marketing boost come out of these alternative races was, it was huge. Yeah. It's quite, it's quite disproportionate, I think to the actual success or failure of your efforts. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, no, it was, it was great. It was a great season and I got to kind of, you know, just tow the waters a little bit, a bit of a soft entry to see if this gravel thing really made sense and if there was this possibility there and then, you know, towards after Leadville and well are dirty cans, I started thinking, you know, like this is phenomenal. Like this scene in the outreach and during Torah California people would be yelling at me on the climbs about Belgian waffle winner. You know, it was actually, it surprised me how excited people were on that. And then, um, I did an interview for Eurosport about riding gravel cause they're like, what the heck is this? Why is a road pro playing around in the dirt? And, and so it started to gain traction and dirty Kanza I, it just expanded on that. And then led Villa was again and it, it was, I, I just, I realized this is where I really enjoy racing. Like I said this in a print interview, but I had more butterflies in my stomach before dirty Kanza than I did before the, you know, the start of the Welter. And that said something to me deep down and, and my wife was able to point it out. Um, and uh, and so eventually I had to make the decision, you know, where, where I want to go. And you know, that was, that was a hard decision. It was, you know, the tried and true path that I've done for a decade. And, you know, there's a setup, uh, there's, there's, um, guarantees in it and there's a stability in it, um, as stable as cycling can be, I guess. But you know, there's, there's a pipeline. Great. So you've put in, you know, you're putting your solid season on off road with these marquee events in 2019. You've been thinking about it for awhile. As you just kind of mentioned the economic decision, much like any professional, you've kind of got trade-offs, you've got security versus the unknown. You've got a big maybe infrastructure that you're involved in at the pro tour level versus making decision to essentially create your own small infrastructure to go out and pursue these things you're excited about. So I think all the listeners can kind of grapple and understand what you must have been thinking at that point. And it's a huge leap of faith to kind of come in and, um, take the private tier approach. What was that like, kind of creating a program that would meet your sort of family economic needs as well as your passion to pursue the types of events you wanted to go after? Yeah, that, you know, that was, that was the big question Mark in my mind is, you know, is this going to be viable? I mean, I, this is where I will be happiest racing my bike. But you know, world tour pays well and it's, it's, it's a job as well as a passion. And you know, I have a family, I have two mortgages with Santa Rosa and Tahoe. Um, you know, and I have to make ends meet and, and I also, you know, to, to do myself and my sponsors, right. And to be able to fully focus and give my all as a bike racer and a brand ambassador and an athlete, it's, you know, I didn't want to be working in a cafe on the side. Like I really, you know, could I make this financially viable? Um, and I kinda had to test the waters again a little bit. You know, I, I kinda, I softly reached out to a few companies and I got, you know, some, some big commitments early from guys that, you know, they have a, um, a reputation in the cycling industry. And I think once you have a few names on board that was able to validate my decision to others. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm lucky enough to say now that I will be able to, uh, make this thing happen. Like I'll, I'll be able to pay my mortgage and race my bike still. But eventually, you know, all my life is in California and my family and my happiness and my friends. So, you know, I, I didn't want to continue to live in Europe for the next decade. Um, so if anything, and if I can keep racing grapple for longer cause I still love racing, I'm 32, I'm at the prime of my career physically. Like maybe it will be the right move in the long run. Um, but uh, I mean yeah, it was, it was a very calculated move and it's um, it's going to be a lot more sweat equity. It's a lot more of the hustle. It's, but it's also a lot more validating. You know, I'm able to work with sponsors that I have direct relationships with. I can text the president of the company and, and give feedback and, and you know, promote brands that I actually truly care about and believe in instead of, you know, the, the old pro model of, you know, here's a sponsor that we signed. Now you have to tweet about them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think what was really interesting about your announcement was just, you know, clearly you could have continued on over in Europe and you made this decision, which I think is, uh, in a very unique moment in time and gravel where you can come and do that. Obviously we've had big name X pros who have retired and then joined the gravel cycling scene. But you made a very conscious effort to say, I'm not retiring, I'm, there's continuity in my professional cycling life. I'm just switching disciplines and creating my own program, which I think is going to be something that a lot of other athletes that may be in a similar position to you in the pro Peloton will start looking at you and thinking about that since, jeez, Peter was able to do this successfully and now instead of being on the road racing, you know, 90 days a year, he does, you know, 15 great events and he gets to spend a ton more time with his family. Yeah. You know, well, it's going to be a lot more than 15 events, I'll tell you that. But, um, no, it's true. And it was, it was very strategic and the messaging had to be right. You know, I, I can, I could see the Twitter trolls already lining up, you know, saying, Oh, Stenton is over the Hill. He's just the lengthening the career. But that wasn't the case. You know, I had the backup of having a great 2019 season my age, my last world tour race, I was 15th GC in China and, you know, got a ton of points for, for Trek Sager Fredo like, I mean, if you look at the stats, I'm not over the Hill and [inaudible], but it was just about showing that like, I mean, I'm still competitive as hell and I want to race my bike. This isn't a retirement tour. And, and I had that one chance with that Velo news article to really set the tone. And, and luckily enough, I did that and I, I gotta say my 2 cents. Um, and, uh, then it's, I mean, that the outpouring was, it was really validating. You know, it was, I think it was probably at least 98% positive. There were very, very few Twitter trolls. And I think of the few that I saw, I was like, someone would just chime in and being like, have you ever dreamed of being your own boss, man, and following your dream? Like kind of just shut them up. So, um, no, it was, yeah, it's great. And, and I gravel's inclusive and I hope this is a blueprint for other guys. You know, I don't want to be the only guy doing it this way, you know, I think there's, there's room for more guys. I mean the, the, the fan base and the industry is behind this and gravel's legit and, and I hope and I think there's a lot of eyes on me next year and to see if this is a worthwhile effort. Um, and, and if so, I think you may see more guys jumping this way. Um, and, and to those guys, I can just say, hell yeah, come join. Like there's, there's more room around the campfire, so. Yeah, absolutely. So what is your 2020 calendar look like? Have you, have you scoped it out specifically yet? Yeah, I know. I'm still finalizing things on, on here and there, but it's, uh, it's, it's all encompassing. It's, um, and it's going to be all the biggest gravel races, especially state side, which is where gravel's big right now. Um, I'm gonna start out early season with just some, some local stuff. The grasshoppers in Norco, the bike monkey, fish, rock. Um, and then, uh, my first national caliber race is going to be the land run 100 in March. Um, you're going to see me at Belgian waffle ride, dirty Kanza, the lead boat challenge, both Steamboat and Leadville. Um, grind, Duro, grind, Duro UK, Iceland, wrist. So I'll have some, uh, European trips. Um, even going to see me in Japan. I got some Japanese sponsors that are stoked and I guess, uh, gravel and cycling's, you know, it's, it's big over there. Um, and uh, I'm gonna even do a, there's a, a gravel stage race called the Oregon trail that I, uh, will be fully in. And I mean that's right up my alley cause that's, it's a full on stage race, which is my bread and butter. That's, that's all I've done for the last decade. And now it's, it's a gravel stage race, which is rad. Um, and uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's all the big dogs. Exciting. And how, how are you going to personally define your success in 2020? What does a a good year look like for you? Um, you know, it's, there's more that's, that's a very loaded question. I mean, yeah, there's gotta be race and winds and there's gotta be podiums and those are Uber important at the end of the day for, for your persona, for your sponsors to show you're not on a retirement tour, you know, you gotta I've talked the talk, now I have to walk the walk. Like I got to start getting these big rides in. And um, but also, you know, the, the idea of being a whole encompassing athlete and something that I, I started to say earlier is just to, you know, a a more gratifying experience, you know, and, and just having this direct relationship with sponsors and hoping that they see the value that I can represent them well and be a voice for them. I mean, a big part of what I'll do is, is uh, R and D and, and some content creation. You know, I'm not mr YouTube channel or anything, like I'm still just focused on riding my bike fast, but, you know, just, just representing my, my partners in, in a a wholesome light and you know, and showing that this is, you know, I'm not just some wa robot who cares about winning races, but you know, it's about kicking back and having a beer with everyone and the community of gravel, which is what sold me in this whole movement in the first place. Um, and uh, yeah, just to, just a very gratifying love of two wheels across all aspects. Right. On, you mentioned this a little bit in your, your enthusiasm around the Oregon trail, gravel grinder, a stage race, but are there particular types of courses that you feel well suited to, uh, go climbing? You know, I'm, I've made my, my career as a pure climber. So, um, you know, the more vert there is, the better. The harder courses. I was always better. Even in world tour races in, in the attrition races, the ones that are just on all day. I, I don't, I don't break. That's my actual, that's my strongest suit in cycling, so. Okay. Yeah. Well that was certainly evident in your performance that at DK this year. Yup. So I imagine that your, your training's going to take a slightly different form at the least through the winter and into the year. Can you talk about how you're going to modify what you're doing from what you may have done in the past for your road training? Uh, yeah. You know, I, I've actually had got this question a lot and, and my answer's always the same. It's like, I mean, we should talk again at the end of the year. I, it says it's, it's a step into the unknown. I mean this year I had good success in gravel, basically moonlighting in these races and off of residual world tore fitness, which is the best fitness you can get. Um, you know, now I'm going to have to train a lot more. I'm not going to be stage racing anymore. I'm not going to be pushed to that limit in races the same. Um, however, you know, it's, I'll be able to train more specifically for the requirements. I'm guessing it's going to be a lot less day after day blocks. Um, a lot more long, long rides. I mean all these gravel races are between six to 10 hours more or less. Um, whereas world war training is more like four or five hours day after day after day. You know, I'm thinking I'll maybe do one or two days, but like big long Epic adventures and then recover a bit more. Um, I'm also guessing I have to put on a bit of upper body weight, you know, for more power, raw power and torque. And how are you on the technical stuff off road? I can hold my own. I mean, uh, you know, I grew up racing a mountain bike in Colorado. Um, I always got loose in, in dirt corners playing around out there and I'm not the best bike handler, but I'm better than your average roadie I would say. I mean, I won VWR on a road bike on 28th, so I was able to pick my way through those sections quick enough. Yeah, that's certainly says something. So I know you're pulling together your kind of own private tier program. What are the companies that are going to be supporting you in sponsoring you in that effort and what equipment are you really excited to get on this year? Um, yeah, you know, it's, it's cool. Well, it's, it's, it's about finding companies that align with you and your values as a person and you really have to think more about, it's, it's such a different mindset than just I pedal bike fast, I go fast, like, and I focus on going winning races, you know, which was the world tour. It's, it's who, who is Peter Stena as an, as an athlete and a, and a representative. And you know, for me that was long energy, sustainable, uh, breaking away from the mold. And you know, there's a bunch of like little key words that you could make sound real pretty. But you know, that was, that was the gist of it. You know, I'm not a flashy rock star by any means. And so you start like looking at different companies and how they promote themselves. And, and you know, a big one that kind of instigated this whole thing was cliff bar and you know, Gary Erickson is a personal friend of mine and, and hit the whole story of cliff bar and how he, you know, walked away from a sure thing to follow his dream. Um, you know, get, he, he 100% was behind this from the beginning, you know, and that's, that's, you know, so cliff bar will be a big part of my thing. Um, Canyon bicycles, um, they're like myself, multi-disciplined. You can, they have Uber competitive road, gravel, mountain bike frames, um, always kind of cutting edge on technology. Um, real progressive mindset. Um, Sporkful clothing. I mean, that's one of my oldest relationships in the sport and they are quite technologically advanced and they're their family. Um, Ooh, who else? IRC tire. They're going to be a fun one. Um, and tire selection is so important in, in gravel, maybe the most important. I mean, if you flat, that's, yeah. Your fish a dead fish in the water. Um, and, uh, there's, uh, yeah, there's a Oh, and a Shimano. That's a big one. Um, they're, uh, they're the best. Yeah, it's Shimano and Shimano family. You know, I'll be, um, tip to tail Shimano. So I'm talking not only the group sets, but also the, uh, the pro, uh, bars and saddles. Um, the saddlebags, the, and the Shimano shoes, uh, sunglasses and helmet, which is laser sport that Shimano owns. So I can really, um, highlight the entire Shimano family range. Um, and I'm keeping it under 10 sponsors. You know, I don't want my, my race Jersey looking like a, uh, like a 10 K running event tee shirt. You know, I want it to look professional and clean and, and fast and sexy and, you know, so I'm, I'm trying to focus on, on less than 10 sponsors where I can really support them and, and give them my all to, to make sure it's a two way street. Um, and I'm now talking with, uh, there's a couple more to be announced and I'm talking with a couple of non-endemic guys to, to really, you know, cause gravel's a lifestyle. Yeah. That's awesome. It certainly sounds like from equipment perspective, you're going to have everything you need in your quiver to tackle things ranging from, you know, Leadville to BWR which is [inaudible]. The cool thing about gravel is it's every race is a different setup. I mean there's always a different tire gearing combo so you can really highlight an entire range and, and, and everyone's curious, you know, what, what are a, what are the best guys running and to, cause they are these the, the age groupers doing these, like they're nervous about finishing this thing. I mean, how are you going to complete dirty cancer without getting a million flats, you know, what are you going to run pressure wise, tire tread wise, all of it gearing wise. Um, and you know, so I can really, you know, speak to that. And, and also it's the, there's always a different, yeah, there's always a different combination. It's, it's really fun on the tech side. Yeah, that was really one of the Genesis behind me starting this podcast was just my exploration of what was going to be the right gravel bike for me. And inevitably the first one I set up was not right at all when I actually got it out on the terrain in my backyard here. It really kind of evolved over time and having these conversations with athletes, product designers and event organizers has just helped crystallize how fun and interesting and how much information the average athlete needs to know and learn about gravel in order to figure out how to get the right setup. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, it will be interesting to kind of revisit this conversation at the end of the year to see how you reflect on your choices around training, the types of racing you did. So I'm excited to have had this conversation early in the year and get you on board. I wish you a ton of luck this season. We'll definitely run into each other and some of their upcoming rides in North Cal before you set off on your your world tour. Thank you. I appreciate that. Right on. All right. Thanks Pete. Big thanks to Pete for joining the show this week and best of luck to him in the 2020 season. I can't wait to see how this all pans out with all these new talented athletes coming to the front end of these races. Before we go this week, I wanted to introduce a little bit of a new segment. I'm calling it can't let it go and what I can't let go of this week. Our bags for gravel bikes throughout the winter I've been using my or not handlebar bag, a frame bag from revelation and I can't underscore the utility these bags in the winter months. It's been great just having an extra layer when I get to the top of Mount Tam particularly rain gear, just being able to put it in there just in case is making me a lot happier. It's funny. As a road cyclist, I'd never would have dawned on me to put a lot of bags on my bike. I would always in fact avoid it and my friends around the area will constantly make fun of me if I show up to a road ride with my gravel bags on them. But I have to say it's well worth the flack you're going to take when you pull out that extra set of gloves or a jacket for a big descent. It just makes sense. So I encourage you to give them a try. There's a lot of bags and a lot of options out there, but like I said, I've been pretty happy with both sizes of the or not bar bag and I'm also a big fan of the revel. Eight bags better known for their bike packing gear, but super awesome when you need extra carrying capacity. So with that, I wish you a happy new year. As a reminder, if you have any feedback, feel free to shoot me a craig@thegravelride.bike or leave a comment on one of our social media platform channels. As always, we appreciate ratings and reviews. It really helps with our discovery and feel free to share this episode with friends that ride until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under wheels.
It's the final episode of The VeloNews Podcast of 2019, and we here at VeloNews want to wish all of you a Happy Holidays! For our final show we have an interview with USPro road champion (and friend of the show) Alex Howes. Alex takes us inside his big win, and discusses the joy and pain of racing the Dirty Kanza 200, as well as his big racing plans for 2020. We hope you have a great break and will see you all in 2020.
It's the final episode of The VeloNews Podcast of 2019, and we here at VeloNews want to wish all of you a Happy Holidays! For our final show we have an interview with USPro road champion (and friend of the show) Alex Howes. Alex takes us inside his big win, and discusses the joy and pain of racing the Dirty Kanza 200, as well as his big racing plans for 2020. We hope you have a great break and will see you all in 2020.
Audio issues galore so we've scraped the barrel and made a left overs pie.Topics include:CX season round upUpside down centaursDietPete's backThe same Zwift topics as always2 Become 1 remains
This is my chat with Tzahi Kanza calling from sunny Tel Aviv. He is the CEO of Future Block, an Israeli accelerator for promising Blockchain startups. We talked about one of their success stories, the Spanish startup Bidbass and how hard it is to work with China. Future Block is also looking for partnerships in Sweden and Scandinavia. If you want to know more about Future Block just click here https://futureblockhub.com
This week we speak with experienced gravel athlete, journalist, podcaster and author, Selene Yeager who recently published the quintessential guide to gravel. It is appropriately named, Gravel! The book is a must-read for anyone trying to navigate the world of gravel equipment and events. Selene Yeager Website Selene Instagram Automated transcription (please excuse the typos) Selene, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. I'm stoked to talk about your latest book, Gravel!. I am very happy to talk about it too. These things are always I, I will confess that I always have a lot of anxiety before. One of the, one of my books goes out into the world. It's just, it's just kind of in my DNA. I'm that I'm that kind of personality, but you invest, you know, a lot. I invest a lot of myself into it anyway, so I'm always so happy when people receive it. The way I had hoped they would. Yeah, I mean, it's clear there's a ton of research went into it and all your personal experience. It really is a soup to nuts guide that can benefit a rookie athlete as well as an expert athlete because there's just so much in here and it's, one of the things I always have really loved about gravel is there's just a lot to unpack. There's a lot to unpack about the bikes, the courses, and how they're different in different parts of the country. Let's set the stage a little bit for the listener and just talk about how you got into gravel riding. I know you've got a rich background in both mountain biking and road biking, but where did gravel start to come into play for you? Well, it's funny, it's like a, I imagine it's like a lot of people. I live in a fairly rural area, so, you know, we, we were riding a lot of, you know, we didn't actually call them gravel roads necessarily. They're just unpaved roads, you know, the dirt roads. So we would ride a lot of dirt and gravel just naturally on our rides. And then I really liked it. Like I thought it was just kind of adventurous and fun and those roads always went by pretty places, you know, cause I really off the beaten path. But it wasn't, you know, the fun is always a bit limited by flat tires, you know, by your caliper or your brake calipers when with rim brakes sort of packing up. So didn't do it as much as I probably wanted to, but then I got involved in on the East coast here, there's a series a by crew, messy sport, but like hell of hundred in and it's all based off the spring classics, right? So they have us a certain amount of gravel sectors that you ride. And you know, we just did it on a road bikes. I had a Trek Medan with 23 is, you know, and I just would pump up to a hundred and pray to get through the day. But it was, but I really liked it. So when gravel per se came along, I was like, whatever. I mean honestly, I was just like, yes, sure. Whatever. A new segment. And it honestly is, I talk about in the intro to the book, it wasn't until I did a Jodie cancer for the first time that I was like, Oh huh, gravel is a different thing. You know, like, this is my Medona would not make it 12 yards and on this gravel. So I really started to understand what it was all about when I did that. And then I did a ton of events and you know, I've always felt like the iron cross is too, but I did those across bikes. It was a little different. So that was just sort of a natural evolution into it. And then as it grew, I, and the came along, this is one of the things where I think that the bikes actually knocked down the door. Like once they put a disc brakes on road bikes and the game just changed, you know? And I, and I feel like that's a huge part of what we're, what we're seeing. And it's so much more fun. I mean, I do all the same events here that I did a decade ago, but I'm having so much more fun doing them cause I'm not worried about my tires. I'm, I have tons of clearance. It's just the bike is better. I'm not pinballing all over the road. Yeah. So that's my experience with it. Yeah, exactly. I think you're right in that, you know, the bikes really just there was this step change with disc brakes and tubeless tires that enabled you to go out and not flat on your cross bike all the time. Well, it's just, I mean really it's not that fun, right? Like it's, it's when you sit in there all day fixing flats, it's just the, your fun is a little limited. So when you went out to your first DK and then you returned home, did you find that your eyes were open to a different style or duration of riding in your home territory after seeing what they were doing in Kansas? What do you mean exactly by that? We started, were we riding further exploring further? It seems like in the Midwest and Kansas, there's a lot of athletes that just have a Explorer mentality, which is, it's a little bit of a shift when you're maybe used to doing the same road or mountain loops. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I totally get what you're saying. And you know, I'll qualify that by saying, you know, as a, as a woman riding alone, I would not do a lot of that myself for obvious reasons that are unfortunate but real. But I do have some friends who I ride with frequently who are, and I'll have always been, even before quote unquote, again, gravel took off. They've always been like that. They will, they're the kind of guys that would like be riding along and see a dirt road and be like, huh, I wonder where that goes. Where, honestly, my mentality was not always that. So I did glean, I embraced that a whole lot more and just the whole idea of just getting lost and exploring with them and you know, like, okay, this day might be four hours, it might be six hours, we're not really sure. But yeah, I mean to answer that question, I, I did really get into that and, and, and enjoyed it much more than I probably did previously. That sounds like you and I are similar. I mean, I used to sort of, I'd know the loop I was going to do was four or five hours, I'd go do it and come back and could do the same thing every weekend. Just enjoying the comradery of being out on the road. But with the gravel bike now I find myself throwing a bar bag on or something that can carry a little bit extra gear. So if I do take that detour, it's not a big deal. Yep. And I find myself, you know, what it's really done too, is you know, even for lunch rides, my lunch rides have gotten more adventurous, which is really fun. So I can take my gravel bike and I can be like, okay, what do I feel like doing today? And I can do it on some tame. We don't have a lot of teams single track, but I have enough that's not crazy crazy that I can take my gravel bike on it. So it just opens up that too. Right. I can lay like, okay, I'm going to take this same bike and I'm going to do a little bit of myself mountain single track and then I'm going to go down to the Parkway, which is like cinder trails and then I'm going to take the road over to this other park and it you can do it all on the same bike and I have infinite possibilities and it's, I really enjoy that. Definitely. And I also think there's a little bit of the, when you're riding with friends and you ride a particularly technical section on a gravel bike, it's similar to mountain biking where you just kind of want to stop and high five each other for surviving or having fun. Which I always thought it was missing from the road side of my cycling career. Yeah, no, I could see that. And it is, it does feel much More like play. Yeah. And I think that that is part of that, you know, gravel state of mind that you start talking about in the book. Yeah, totally. So what motivated you to write the book in the first place? What motivated me honestly, was a couple of exchanges that I had with people on, on gravel, at Graebel events and, and on the road I one in particular, I was at an event called Keystone gravel, which is more of a grind, Duro kind of event. It's in central Pennsylvania and it's got like eight different segments. Some of them are ridiculous climbs and some of them are ridiculous, like single track to sense, you know, stuff that you would definitely be more at home on a mountain bike with you know, and I was that back at the end of the day and we were all hanging out and having a beer. And sky came up to me who I know quite well and he said, so is that gravel? You know, cause he had heard all about gravel and he had done unpaved, which is another event here, which is 100% different from that. It's all, some of the unpaved roads of that event are better than the tarmac. Right. So there was this real giant disconnect between his expectations and what he, what he got. And he just didn't have fun. I mean he just, he wasn't, he was over his head. That wasn't, it just wasn't his, it was his riding expectation or ability. And I was like, wow. And then I went out to Rebecca's private Idaho to do a stage race. You know, I've done the her main event and then she has that stage race and she had 16 miles a single track on that first day. And a woman came up to me and she was like, that wasn't so fun for me. Like she's like, I don't know how to ride that. And I just thought there's like kind of a need here to just talk about like as we talked about gravel that it's just not one thing. You know, it's, it's a lot of things and it can look a lot of different ways and the bikes are very much reflecting that you have everything from, you know, a diverge like a, a more road bike to, you know, that specialized that specialized, the salsa cutthroat, which is a slacked out almost a drop our mountain bike. You know, like you can see that there's, the category is broad and I just felt like there was probably a need and a and a want at this point to to make things a little more clear for people to, especially if they're just getting into it. Yeah, you're definitely speaking my language. I think that's of the motivations for this podcast was just that recognition about how different the sport can be for different people when they see the words gravel cycling. Right. Totally. Yeah, and I, you know, you on your podcast, the pace line, you've mentioned Neil Shirley's grading system, which I think is interesting, although it's almost difficult to say that one grade covers a lot of these courses beginning to end. I would agree with that. I had a, I wrestled with that a lot and there's still like, I look at that book still and that's my one regret. There's a couple, I'm like, ah, I don't think that's the right category. I don't know how much I wrestled with that back and forth because I added categories because this was actually a little bit old and it was very West coast centric because he's California. So you know, when I talked to him I'm like, I'd like to use this and I'd like to adapt it. He was like, go for it. So I added like East coast events and other events that have cropped up in the meantime, but it was, it was very difficult and you know, those events are also going to change. So it's real important to read your course descriptions. Always cause it, it might be different from one year to the next. Even honestly, I saw the team at SPT gravel added four miles of what they're calling double track and single track. Totally. And I'm like, well that blows my rating out of the, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. It's interesting when you talk to athletes like Jeremiah Bishop or paisan, you know, those guys who come from a super strong mountain bike background, they'll often lament the kind of more dirt roadie type courses, which potentially could favor people with a road background more and never really exploit their weaknesses in the technical single track. I think that's okay though. And I talk about that in the book. I do believe that there is room for everybody, right? Like if you're not comfortable on a mountain bike and single track and all that, I believe that there should be events for you and if the, if you are, I believe there should be events for you to, you know, and, and there are events as you mentioned, that cover all those ends of the spectrum, you know, like give a little bit of taste for everybody's strength. But yeah, I mean it's horses for courses. I think that that's true in gravel too. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see as the quote unquote monuments of gravel start to emerge, these big iconic races that, you know, make or break a professional athletes calendar, I suppose. And imagine that they're, they're going to take all shapes and flavors, right? You're going to have some that are just the sheer horsepower race and other ones that are going to require technical skills to be on the pointy end of the spear. Well, and I think you know, you and I was just at that Bentonville event. And I think, and for people who don't know, it's, we're talking about, it's a big sugar, which was the, it's lifetime's new gravel event in Bentonville, Arkansas area and in to them they were all kind of gleeful that this event will not favor road tactics. And you can, I'm sure you agree that Vivette will not favor tactics that then is going to be very much a test of self. It's punchy. It's difficult. It's not, there's not a lot of drafting or any of that kind of stuff that can go on. So yeah, I, I, it's going to be interesting to watch because they all, they all are different. And as, as people do bring the road to gravel, I think you're going to see more gravel events just either cater to that or be like, mm, let's change that up. Yeah, it seems like, I mean to me it seems like you've got the longer distance events, which become sort of a battle of attrition and [inaudible] and nutrition, maybe a good point. And then you've got ones that are going to have technical elements to it that are gonna, you know, make or break your ride your day. Yeah, totally. I would agree with that. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves and I think one of the, we're just starting, Don't you think? Like we are. I think it's, it's going to be, we're just starting to watch this evolution. This whiz wave is still [inaudible] Christine. Yeah. And I think there's, there's very much an art to course design to kind of pull the various levers and obviously you're going to be, you're going to go with what you have access to. So in Kansas it's going to be one thing, and Utah, it's going to be another, in Bentonville, it's going to be another. And, and that's the beauty of it. I personally love putting something on the calendar for next year in an area that I've never been before, to just see what they can throw at me. Well and everything is different. I mean, that's what I, I, that's why I love when people come out to unpaved, which is, you know, the event that my husband cope produces is that it's 100% different from, you know, anything that even you would encounter in the mountain States or in the Midwest. So the dirt is different. Yeah, the trees are different like that. Like the, everything about it is different. So it's really cool to, to go, like you're saying, to go to places because it's not just the, the course, but it's literally the dirt that you're riding on. You know, land run is 100% different from crusher and the Tuscher, which is different from any of the grasshoppers. So it's just like, it's cool. It's a good way to experience a place. Yeah, absolutely. It's really cool. One of the things you touch on and you're very much an expert in is nutrition. And I think for gravel events, what may not, what may sort of get lost in signing up for an event. So you sign up for a 50 mile event and your framework is around the room, you know, it's, it's going to be longer, it's going to be harder on your body. So how should athletes be looking at nutrition differently for these types of events? I think that that's, I love that you put 50 miles out there cause that's a, that's a great it's a great distance because people, especially if they're coming from the road, not so much if they're coming from the mountain, but if you're from the road you're like, okay, whatever. Right? Like 50 miles, I can do 50 miles. But 50 miles could take you five hours. Like it could take you a long time. Depending on the terrain, depending on gravel is so different because I think that was one of my really, really big eye opening things when I went out to Kansas is like, I don't think I've ever coasted. And this whole 13 hours I've been out here and I did it was maybe for 15 seconds. You're just working so much harder. And even, even in the best of conditions, you're still working just a little bit harder because of the surface. It's there, there's more rolling resistance. Your tires are bigger, it's generally harder going and that adds up. You know that that really does that up to how much energy you're expanding. You're using more of your muscles, you're using more upper body and it's often harder to eat. It's a so you can get into a hole really quickly without realizing that you're getting in a hole. So I, I, I try to encourage people to make their food as accessible as possible. I'm a big fan of the little top two bento boxes because reaching into your pockets is harder than you think it's going to be. I, I've, I have done this myself. I'm like, ah, I don't, I did it for Steamboat gravel. I'm like, I don't think I need that thing. And I was so, so many times I kicked myself all day long. I'm like, why didn't you just put that on your bike? It would've made your food so much easier to get. You know, but you also, it's visual then too. You can think about it. You can look at your computer and be like, Oh, it's, you know, a half hour in, it's an hour in, I should eat something. And it's right there. But you have to make it more of a conscious effort to stay on top of it because if you don't, you can get in a hole much, much easier than you could on the road, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. It's funny, I, I hesitate to admit this on air, but I learned those lessons doing iron man triathlons. Oh yeah, me too. I've been there. Yeah. All right. So we're both secret former triathletes at this point. And yeah, you learn, you know, I remember talking to a coach and I was talking about my hydration strategy and how I'd go for a 70 mile ride and drink two water bottles and he was just like, that is not enough at all. And in triathlon maybe it is for your training ride, but it's going to kill you at your race. Yeah, right, exactly. And that's, you have to practice that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Because you've got to, it's not about in triathlon, it's not about just finishing the bike. You're going to exactly one as well. And I think there's some parallels there with, with gravel in that you just need to keep yourself topped up. Cause if you get behind the eight ball, you ain't coming back totally. And you really do really do need to practice it. I preach that so, so much. One of the things that I am really glad that I did before Kanza is I did a real dress rehearsal, shakedown ride, where I put everything on my bike the way I planned it. Because it's so easy when you, if you're going to do a super, super, super long training ride, a lot of people will just plan stores and stuff, right. But they're not carrying it the same way that they're going to be carrying it at the event. And it's really important that you do that because, and find the train that matches it as best you can. So I like took my gravel bike on some really chunky, no Whitner maintenance Rocky road. And my bottle's objected immediately and my bag was like going sideways. I was like, okay, all right, this is not going to work. You know? It's just good to like not discover that On race day. Yeah. Even I think Yuri Haswell had mentioned it when he was on the podcast. Even the idea of putting the same things in the same location. Yes. On your bags or body, wherever you're going to store the stuff. So, you know, you don't have to think about it at all. Yeah. Especially with something like Kanza that's, that's more important than you think. Cause you lose the ability to reason and think and remember. Yeah. It's so true. I call it, for me, I call it getting stuck on stupid where I can't, I just cannot, I cannot make a simple decision about my nutrition or hydration at that point in the day. Yup. Yup. Which brings me to another point, which I think was interesting that you dedicated a chapter to it, which was the notion of grit. Yup. I actually almost, I originally, the working title for the whole book was grit, but they they wanted it to be a little more clear. But yeah, I always call it the book itself. Grit. Yeah. Can you, can you dive into that chapter a little bit and talk about why people need to think about grit when it comes to gravel cycling? I'm sure because it is, I think and again, a lot of this is drawn from my own personal experience as well as, you know, athletes I've worked with and people that I've, I know is that often that we have this mental picture, something like I did that coast to coast race across Michigan a couple of years ago and you know, my mental picture of it was like, Oh, I'm just going to ride my bike across Michigan on the sand roads and it's going to be wonderful. And you know, I like, I don't know that this is why I keep doing things because I have a memory of a goldfish, but you know, but then 165 miles into it, it was not sunshine and roses, right. I went into the tunnel, the dark place that you go into and I think it's really important to train that part because when all things are equal and you've done your work and you're prepared and you have your nutrition, you can do it. It's your brain that's going to shut you down. It's your little central governor in your head that is going to be like, no, not today. Or yes, you can get through this. And I, it's important enough. I mean, you could write a whole book about it and people have, but I thought that especially gravel where it is hard, you know, I mean I think that's one of the things that people get so caught up in like, Oh the fun because it's fun, but a lot of times it's type two fun, you know, where you're out, you're kind of suffering for a while and you know, almost all these events throw some sort of pretty challenging stuff at you. Like, well, you're just in this interminable, false flat into a headwind for really long time and it ceases to be kind of real fun. Right. And then, then there's has to be something else that's going to get you through. And that's great. Yeah. I think, you know, even if I think back at what I would deem a relatively nontechnical course of SBT gravel, there were a couple of sand sand sections. And when you're feeling a little bit fatigued and you keep coming off because you're, you know, not handling the sand correctly, it feels like you're making no forward progress or you're never going to get to the end and you know, you still have 30 40 miles to go. You do go into that dark place and it's a question of how do you come out of it? How do you remind yourself that it's just temporary? Yeah, and that's why in the book I talk about it being a tunnel and not a cave because I've always thought like everyone talks about the pain cave and the cave implies that you're going into a dark place where bears are asleep, right? Like it's just not, it does. There's no end to that. And if you think of it more like a tunnel, then there's light on the other side. You just have to Find it. That's a great way of thinking about it. And I think gravel maybe more so than the road and maybe less so than mountain biking really lends itself to that. Because if you're doing it right, you're going to hit a section where you just have a shit eating grin on your face and you're having the time of your life and that can come just moments after being stuck in that sand and feeling like the world is going to end And vice versa. You know? I mean, I remember in Michigan I was like, literally, I'm like, woo, this is fun. And then not 30 minutes later I'm like, Oh, I'm dying. This is terrible. I mean, it can, it can happen like the flick of a switch, you know? And you have to just learn how to talk to yourself, learn how to take care of yourself and you can totally get it. Yeah. There's a lot of life lessons there as well, I think. Oh, I agree. Yeah. Transcends bicycling. I love that about gravel in that, you know, you'd go out with friends or in a race and everybody's going to have those moments and you can kind of just share and revel in pushing through them. Yup. Yeah, I mean that's, those are all the stories that you gather as you're out there. The, the book concludes with some really great information about cross training and ultimately actually a training plan for, for DK 200. Let's talk a little bit as we're approaching the end of the year, what should we be encouraging the listeners to do with their bodies other than cycling Strength train? I can say it enough. I mean if you look at the Kate Courtney's and the Peter Saigon's and you know, Taylor Finney before he retired, like pretty much everybody right now. Cyclists now know even at the highest level, that strength training is a really important compliment for our sport. It it builds, it not only like gives you more Watts because it builds efficiency and power and strength. And if you lift heavy, it's not for hypertrophy. It's for strength and power, you know, so you're not going to look like a bodybuilder. But it just also takes, it makes you more injury proof, which is important, you know, and it lets you push that bigger gear that you need to push on gravel cause you need to push bigger gears on gravel to make progress. It helps support your whole core. You know, core is overused, but you use a lot of your core muscles to support yourself on choppy terrain. You know, your traps won't get, sorry, your shoulders won't get sorry. Your triceps won't get sore. It's, I, I cannot, I've been preaching strength training for a long, long time and I'm so happy that cyclists are finally catching onto it. But definitely this time of year is the perfect time to give yourself a break off the bike. You need to give yourself a break off the bike so you can Like come back to it fresh and you know, with these muscles that you've been taking care of and other ways and you're more balanced. Yeah. I've, when you mentioned Kate Courtney's name, it reminded me of like her Instagram feed right now is filled with her strength training as much as it as it is riding a bike. Did you see her Jo like single, her single hopping up that flight of steps? Was that her? I think it was, I just, I, I, I follow a few people and I hope, I hope I'm not talking about someone else's amazing feat, but somebody like was doing a lot of these great plyometrics and one of it was like single hopping up this long By the stairs. I'm like, that is amazing. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's important for the listeners, and maybe even, I'm preaching to myself when I say this, that we're not professional cyclists. We're all normal human beings in the aging process. And getting into the gym is just something we all need to do for our own health. Not only cycling performance. Oh, 100% true. I mean you're, you, I mean all of, all of the, all of the metabolic things that happen over time, you know, you tend to naturally lose some muscle, naturally become more predisposed to put on fat, you know, body composition changes, bone density, all of that stuff. Strength training is, is the solution to stemming it for sure. And in, in the book, I noticed a lot of exercises around strength that look like they can be done in the home. Was that intentional or are you sort of an advocate of getting, getting actually underneath some heavy weights? I'm a huge advocate of getting underneath some heavy ways. Absolutely. So I'm a realist and I also believe that you can do an awful lot at home. So, you know, you can, I'm, I don't go to the gym really more than twice a week, maybe three times. But I do lots of maintenance work at, in the house and it's amazing what some pushups, air squats, you know, that kind of stuff can do. It's, it's, it works very well and it leaves you with very little excuse because you know, you can do them pretty much anywhere. And on those gym days at home, are you, are you riding as well on those days or those sure. Dedicated athletics for the day. I usually ride too. I, you know, I ride not just for riding but for, because I love riding for mental health and for being outside, you know, which, which the gym doesn't necessarily do. So it is, it can be a little bit of a juggling act. You know, if I'm doing a heavy strength training day, sometimes I like to compliment it right after and just spin it out on my bike. You know, like that's, that's a nice way. I like to remind my, it sounds kind of strange to talk about this, but I like to remind my muscles why I'm doing what I'm doing and sometimes I feel like that's a great way to do it. I ride to the gym and I do my thing and I go for a short spin afterwards. And I'm still doing some interval work for sure over the winter time just to stay, just to keep that little bit of top end. And the, the book concludes with this DK 200 training plan and I was excited to see that as someone who often on contemplates going to Cannes and myself to do that event. I listened to your cohost from the pace line, Patrick, talk about his journey to cancer this past year, which I don't know if it put me more in wanting to do it or less than willing to do it. Reasonable. When you, when you were putting together that a training plan, is that an off the couch training plan or is it assuming someone has a decent amount of fitness underneath them to begin with? It's and recreational rider, which I kind of define as somebody who rides regularly and has for a few years. And by regularly, I mean, you know, two to three, maybe four days a week, you know, the long ride on the weekend, you should definitely be able to put in a couple hours on your bike easily, comfortably. So not straight off the couch per se, but also not, you don't need to have a, a pro card or a license, you know, you don't need to wind up for any other events. And I very, very purposely made it manageable and I purposely also made it harder than some other plans that I've seen because because the do not finish rate is so high there. And I think it's because people don't take themselves quite as far as sometimes as they really need to. You know, being on your bike for five or six hours is one thing. Once you push over eight hours, it's a whole different animal. And if you've never been there, you just, you, you don't know how you're going to, your stomach's going to respond to food. You don't know all that stuff that happens, how, you know, if you're going to get hot spots on your feet, like a lot of that stuff doesn't materialize until you cross that really long endurance time. So I, I, you know, if I felt it really important that you don't need to do a ton of those rides, but I felt like it was super important to take people into that territory. How many of those did you have in the program where you were going? Pretty deep and long. [inaudible] Not More than maybe two, three. I mean, not really. I tried to keep it reasonable. So you still have a life, you know, I don't believe that this needs to be your whole life, but I do believe like, I'm like training for a marathon. Right? Like you people recreationally, training for marathon, don't do a ton of 20 plus mile rides or runs. Some don't do any. And I don't believe that either. I, when I trained for marathons, I'm like, you have to go into that 20. You have to just psychologically because if you've never, that's a quarter of your race. If you've never been there, it's scary. That's the worst part. You know, so I, I really didn't feel like the same. I treated like a lot like marathon training in that way. Yeah. And I remember, I remember getting coached and having a particularly difficult long, long workout and my coach just reminding me like, you got through it. That's in the bank. No one has to take that away from you. And when you're having a hard time at the event, just remember that you've banked everything. You've been on this program, you can do this. It makes a huge difference. I interviewed Chrissie Wellington one time and pro world-class triathlete for people who don't know. And she wants said some workouts are stars and some workouts are stone, but they're both rock and you build with them. And that has, that has been in my head for a long time. That's awesome. And that's, those are probably good words to conclude with. You've created a really great guide to gravel cycling soup to nuts. As I said, I think for anybody this is a good read, an interesting read it for, for those who've been around the sport for a while it explores things like drop reposts suspension, different types of things you, you may be considering as you've been around the sport longer. And if you're a beginning athlete, it just sort of brings you right from what you should expect across the board list some amazing events across the country that you might look to put on your 2020 calendar. So Celine, thanks so much for the time and I encourage everybody to go out and order this book. Thanks, Craig. It's been great.
A conversation with John Kirlin from Wyoming's The Dead Swede Hundo gravel cycling event. The Dead Swede Website The Dead Swede Instagram Automated Transcript (please excuse the typos). John, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Awesome. I'm excited to learn about the dead Swede hundo. It definitely, I think captures my imagination as the most clever race name I've heard of in recent memory. But first let's start off by telling us where you're located and how you got into creating the event in the first place. Great. So yeah, located in, shared in Wyoming and kinda started looking around that, just the terrain. There are not a lot of folks that live in Wyoming. There are about half a million people in the entire state, but we're the 10th largest land mass in the United States. So we've got a lot of great terrain and a lot of big mountains and a lot of great gravel. And so riding gravel is just kind of an obvious choice for us out here. I moved to Sheridan from Casper, Wyoming and started just looking over the maps and just kinda seeing what roads were available, ride and started going into a local bike shop sharing bicycle company and chatting with who's now my business partner in the race. Jordan with Duke and looking at, you know, what the gravel scene lawns out here who's riding what, what's, what's big, what's Epic, how can I, what's a a hundred mile a loop that I could maybe sync up and everything started pointing towards the big horn mountains and cause we, we had the beauty of the big horn mountains that are just right in our backyard. And so it just started looking at potential ways we could loop up a a hundred mile loop and started looking on the map and everything drew me to kind of this grow that's kind of famous around here called red grade road. And it's just basically an old Jeep road almost that just goes straight up the mountain. You climb about three, 4,000 feet in a matter of seven miles. So it, it gets up and going, but we just started thinking, well maybe I'll put together a ride, maybe a group ride. And then I said, well, if I'm going to just formalize this thing and make it a real thing, how about we just put on an event and see if we can get some people more than just a handful of locals. The cheaper we can get some other people from around the state and the region to come out. And we at first year anticipated about 50 riders. We had about 150 show up for our first event and we just had our third year this year in June and that 580 riders show up. That's great. When you, when you moved to Sheridan, John, were you already writing a drop bar gravel bike or did you come from a mountain bike or road background? Yeah, I was riding a drop bar, gravel bike or cyclocross bike really. I'd actually yet to switch to a real specific gravel geometry. I'm currently on a, you know, a five year old specialized crops. Then just kind of retrofitted it. And I came from ride racing side cross and I raised mountain bikes and rode in college and I actually grew up as a cross country skier. And so that's where my real racing background came from. Great. And then you, you had mentioned, and I'm sure in people's imagination, the state of Wyoming, it just sort of screams that it probably has a lot of gravel roads. And you alluded to that. For those of us who haven't been to Wyoming, or at least in my case I've been through, but I haven't peddled in Wyoming at all. You know, what, what, what is the terrain and what are the roads like? I mean we have just all sorts of different regions over here. Anything from kind of where we're at on the Eastern side of the state is more high grassland. And so like Sheridan for example, is kind of rolling Hills with ranches and farm land and the kind of the open grassy lands. And then we've bought up to the big horn mountains. And so then we get into more like 9,000 vertical feet and mountain roads to track single track and rough feel, us forest service type riding. And then the opposite side, the Western side of the mountain is kinda high desert basin that is very similar to like the Fruita and grand junction area and Moab area. And so there's Wyoming really has a whole lot of different regions and it's kind of fun. So it sounds like there's a combination of, of roads, dirt roads, which would be automobile accessible to S to stuff that cars couldn't get over and it's just for off road bikes and, and offered vehicles presumably. Yes. Access to that terrain. How did that kind of shape what type of event you wanted to put together? Yeah, so I, I just looked at, as we were talking more and more about an event, we wanted to do something that would start and finish in town versus just somewhere out in the boonies. My wife actually helped me realize the value in that. She says, you know, it's, it's great for the racer out there, but what about the spouse that not raising, what are they going to do? And so we, we kinda cater to that and the families. And so having it start and finish in town and providing them with where to lodge, what are the fun things to do in town while you're significant others out suffering for 10 hours. So at the time I was working at one of the breweries, black dude brewing company in town. And so we partnered with them saying, well, let's just start and finish at the brewery. What's better than finishing arrived in finishing at a brewery? And that worked great for the first two years. But as this last year, we grew in size, the, the street out in front of the brewery was just not adequate for what our raisers wanted and sides. And after riding for, you know, 10 hours in the sun, then trying to stand around on hot black pavement, we've decided to move it to our city park in town, which was just, you know, half a mile away from the brewery. Okay. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's one of those great opportunities that is unique to gravel that you can start in town and it's easy enough with these bicycles to, you know, cover five or 10 miles to get out of town and get into the wilderness. And then all of a sudden, as your wife astutely noted, and as the event has progressed over the last couple of years, you end up with this great economic opportunity for the community, a great opportunity to showcase the small town or if their city that you live in. And I think you see that time and time again with gravel races around the country, that they're really just creating these great weekend events that even the towns, folk who aren't interested in cycling can appreciate that. It just brings some, some energy and economic vitalization to the community over the weekend. Absolutely. I mean, that's a big part of it. And even just myself as a writer, I anymore more, I like to just go, well, there's a new place and they've gotten any bet and I plan my vacation and my, my weekend around that event. Like, yeah, we'll go hang out with some friends, meet some new people and do some riding, check out the country and its place that we normally wouldn't probably see if we were just driving through. Yeah, that's right. Know you said something, something I loved over email. To me that said, I love throwing challenges at riders, giving them a glimmer of hope with some recovery sections and then throwing more at them again. Can you tell us how that plays out over the long course for the, for the dead Swede? Absolutely. So some people might say I'm a bit of a masochist and I'm climbing that, but I also love to descend and when mapping out the course, I really looked at where are going to be a good challenges and if I've got a really big long climb, what's my recovery all look like afterwards and where can I really capitalize on getting recovery? And so as riders go out the course, they'll get few miles of pavement, then they start the, hit the gravel and do some rolling Hills and break up into their groups. And then they hit this, the base of the mountains and they climb and climb and climb and climb up just this steep road. And a lot of people end up walking it because you're going about three miles an hour climbing this thing. There's sections of it that are of, you know, 16 to 22 degree angle our percent. But in the middle of one of these climbs, we had a little section of single track. And so I thought, you know, that'd be a fun way to break it up. So they're still gonna get the elevation but get a little bit more distance, aunts and single track. And so they do about a mile seeing the track in the middle of this climb and kind of mentally it's a reprieve there before they then hit the steep grades of the red grade road. And then once you get up on top, that's where the, the views really open up and you can see into what's cloud peak wilderness and these 13,000 foot peaks with snow on top of them still as you ride through the forest. And we've got some punchy rolly Hills in there, but then do some loops and get some descents. And then I, okay, it feels fun. And then I'll throw just a big gut punch of a, a hike, a bike section in the middle after crossing the stream. And we kinda have a sign that I always like to put out on the course. Kind of to poke fun at my riders, give them a little bit of sarcasm. But the sign I say, can we still be friends? [Inaudible] Then I'll put it in various, I'll put in a different section each year. Just cause it is one of those where you think you're done climbing and then you realize it's a, it's a false summit and you turn and you got another thousand vertical feet to go and it just kind of deflates your balloon right there. Yeah. And so I, I asked them, can we still be friends? And, and I'll always have writers that come in that after the finish they're like, well, I saw that sign and I really wanted to punch you. My answer was no at the moment. Yes, absolutely. But yeah, I really like to strategically place our, our Clines and technical sections if it's going to be super rough and technical, then afterwards put it, you know, section and on just buff gravel or even a little section of pavement in there if the course allows it. And as the course remained consistent over the three years or have you made changes? Every year for the long course has been different because of the timing of our race. It snow conditions are a big factor. We had the first, the actual inception of the course was supposed to be a 100 mile loop and that then rolled through the, the entire forest and came back down. But as we got closer and closer, I realized we're not going to be able to get through this section as snow. It goes up too high and there's about a five mile section that doesn't get plowed or maintained and that would've just been a five miles off hike a bike through postholing snow. And I just didn't want to put our riders through that, Which is funny as a coastal person because your events in June, the idea to think that you're, you know, you're going to be tapped out because of the snow line in June is pretty funny from my perspective. Yeah. Because yeah, we're, we're up high in the high elevation mountains. So there it's, it's funny, last year we had a late, we had a late and wet spring and snow fall and so we had to do a reroute of our course last year. We weren't even able to go all the way up top and we actually ended up doing kind of two loops of our lower course last year, which made for some really fast times. But yeah, just the snow is, is a factor for us. Yeah. I got to imagine it makes the stream crossings a little chilly as well. Absolutely. And so we don't have many of them, but there where you do cross, it's, you're, you're going through glacier melt. I like what you've described with the course because I think it's, for me, when a course becomes just a battle of attrition along fire roads, it becomes less interesting. And I think less apropos for where I want to see gravel go. I, you know, I want cyclists always to be challenged across the full range of disciplines. They're not only Watson horsepower, but handling skills you name it. I think that that makes a great event that it sounds like you've pieced together a day that depending on the conditions, not depending on the conditions, it's always going to be a day that the rider remembers. Absolutely. That's what I like with cycling is just going out and getting a little bit of everything. And I come from just, you know, not just a road background or not just a mountain background or gravel background, but I really kind of want to do them all in one ride. And so that's kind of the idea behind this course is to bring people that come from multiple backgrounds and they're going to feel comfortable and confident in sections and they're going to feel, you know, vulnerable and uncomfortable in other sections. But that's the best part of the cycling is that when you get into that vulnerability stage and it only makes you a better rider when you get through it. Yeah. And I think that it makes it really interesting when you're riding with others and you see their skillsets versus yours in different areas. And it gives you an opportunity if you're more technically inclined to kind of catch up on those single tracks sections a while the, you know, the people with the great engines are climbing away from you on the fire roads. Absolutely. I mean we definitely see that in our results. We have people that they just, they know they're not a climber and so they hang out for a little while in the back. But then what we do is after that climb, they do Wally pop up top and then they come back and descend all that road. And so some of these good climbers that unite not be a great descenders or they might blow up, they might not have the legs to get through the rest of the course because they spent it on the climb. Yeah, yeah. Have you seen other events start to crop up in your region? Yeah, we have. It's been, so there was for a little while, we kind of pieced together this Wyoming gravels series and there's a erasing Casper that we always kind of hit. And that's in the central part of the state. It's the rattlesnake rally and they've got 120 mile as their long course and then like a 60 mile in a 30 mile as well. Here's a ride out of Lander, the WYO one 31, which hits a big section of gravel and that's a, that's a lot more self supported of a ride and, but they've got a big 131 mile course one over in Gillette right next to the black Hills. And then the black Hills has a big following the folks that do the Dakota Fibo, which is a big mountain bike race over there and Spearfish Perry Jua is the ratio organizer over there. He puts on the gold rush and it's a 200 miles through big group. And so it's starting to pop up all over the region. And we actually reached out to some folks on the other side of the mountain and did our inaugural or we call the bad medicine ride this September and partnered with some people over there and kind of the same thing, one of those mixed bag rides where you're, you're gonna climb a lot and it's like the long course is a, a 96 mile loop with 10,000, 200 vertical feet in elevation. And the probably the best bike for that would be like the salsa cut throat or you know, something with a big dual inch drop bar, mountain bike almost just because of some of the, the technicality up top. But then there's also a 17 mile paved descent through this Canyon. So one of those rides where no one bike is the best. But yeah, there's, it's, it's been interesting watching the gravel, seeing rural out here because it's just, it is a great way to get off the pavement and when we don't have roads that are paved all that well anyways, and a lot of vehicle traffic going 70 miles an hour next year, it's not that fun. But, and so a lot of people I know are selling the road bikes and just kinda the gravel bike or they just picked up their first $500 entry level hard tail and looking for something to ride. And so they're not a technical writer, so is a huge appeal to them. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, as you've described Wyoming and at my own personal experience there, I mean you've got, I think you've got a great training ground for all levels of gravel. Like you said, you can have a basic bike with 30 to see tires and ride miles and miles and miles of just gravel roads that undulate for, for long distances. And then you can start layering in some of the double track and ultimately the single track and then combine these crazy adventures like you were talking to the other side of the mountain. It really does sound like an ideal area for gravel riding. Absolutely. We love it over here and all of our rides we put on are just, they're meant to be super encouraging. I, I joke about the masochism but I also I like to make sure that we have support out there and so that anyone can really come out and feel safe and comfortable with it and just kind of take some of that, that level of risk and the unknown out of there. So like all of our rides will like, between the dead suite as well as the bad medicine, we'll put an aid station approximately every 10 miles that'll have food, nutrition, minimal bikes support like at pump and some patch kit if someone runs it, just to allow that little bit level of comfort for these people that they just bought their first bike and they're, they're looking for something to do and they're loving it. And signing up for 120 miles. Self-Supported just doesn't sound that fun to them yet. And you've, you've you've done three different routes at this point, right? For the different distances? Yeah. It's for the, for the dead sweet. For the, the a hundred miler. We've done three different routes and we have what we plan on being our, our standard route. But it has to, if weather's on our side, we'll continue that standard group. Otherwise we did come up with a, a good alternative to lap course down-low. Great. And then I can't let you go without understanding. Where did the dead Swede name come from? So it's funny, there's a campground not bond off of what was originally going to be the, the main loop called the dead sweet camp ground. And so when I moved to the area and I saw it on a map, I was like, what is this all about? And there's, there's three grave sites right there at this campground and it used to be up on top of the big horns. They had a big logging operation and logging camps and this tie flume. And so they would send these railroad ties down a, you know, a 30 mile handbill water slide down the mountain into town for the railroad and kind of legend Hagit is this for men. And a couple of other guys are doing some mining for and gold panning and silver and just trying to find some minerals and get rich. And apparently maybe they found it and between the three of them they got a quarrel and guilt each other over this. And so yeah, this kind of that, that true Western mystery of the high mountain panhandler. Yeah. Fascinating story. Well, John, thanks for telling us a little bit more about the event and sharing about the region over there in Wyoming. The event is in June of 2020, is that right? Correct. And June six of 2020 it falls same day as dirty Kanza and that is one of those things that we couldn't get around just cause of all the other events in our region. But you know, if you don't get into dirty Kanza come see us at our event. Yeah, it sounds good. I will put a the link to the dead sweet Hondo website in the show notes and post about it on social media so people can start thinking about it for their 2020 calendar. Absolutely. Right on. Well, thanks John. I appreciate the time. Yeah, thanks for having me.
A conversation with Kristi Mohn (marketing manager) and Lelan Dains (Events Manager) from the Dirty Kanza team introducing Big Sugar Gravel in Bentonville, AR. Registration opens November 15th, 2019. Big Sugar Gravel Website Big Sugar Gravel Instagram Craig : 00:00 Welcome everyone to this week's Gravel Ride podcast. We are podcasting today from a basement in Bentonville, Arkansas. And I've actually got a couple of guests on the podcast today, who I'm going to ask to introduce themselves because it's a little bit of a surprise. And we'll talk about why we're here in a few minutes. Kristi: 00:18 Oh, ladies first? Craig : 00:20 Of course, always. Kristi: 00:21 I'm Kristi Mohn. I'm with the Lifetime and Dirty Kanza. What do you want to know about me? I'm from Emporia Kansas, home of Dirty Kanza. Craig : 00:30 And you've been working on Dirty Kanza since the beginning, right? Kristi: 00:33 Yeah, pretty much. I officially joined Jim and Joel at the time after the 2009 event. So Dirty Kanza started in 2006. Was the first race. Craig : 00:45 And was Emporia your hometown? Kristi: 00:46 Yeah, Emporia is my hometown. Craig : 00:48 Were you a cyclist? Kristi: 00:50 Yeah, I was a cyclist. I'd mostly been a runner, but had been graduating or transitioning to cycling more, so was a cyclist. Craig : 00:59 And when we were talking offline, you told me you saw it as just this big opportunity for a rural community, to have an event that everybody could get behind. Kristi: 01:09 Yeah, that it really that's kind of what it was. Is after the first year, I thought this event could be something really cool. You could take your kids to the checkpoints. We had two young kids at the time, twins that were, I think they were four or five when it started. And just really looking for a way to be a family and participate in an event like that. Because Tim would go to mountain bike races and it wasn't as conducive to having kids at mountain bike races. And the gravel scene really allowed that. Craig : 01:39 What kind of friction did you experience with the town? Did everybody say, "Oh, this sounds like a great idea"? Or they- Kristi: 01:44 Well, no, they thought it was crazy. You want to do what? And I'm like, "We're going to have this bike race downtown Emporia and have 200 people. Or people ride 200 miles on gravel in one day. And they're just like, "Nobody's going to come and do that." And it turned out not to be the case, luckily. Craig : 02:04 Did it take a while for people to start coming? Kristi: 02:06 To start coming to the event? Craig : 02:08 Yeah. Kristi: 02:08 I mean, we'd gotten to where it was at least regionally, it was fairly known. When we moved it downtown, we really wanted people to come and celebrate the cyclists finishing that distance. And so the finish line party and our finish line atmosphere, which our local Main Street helps us with that finish line party, you'll have 10 to 12,000 people down there to greet riders coming in, after riding 200 miles. And I think it really celebrates the average, everyday athlete. And I love that about it. And Emporians love watching these people cross the finish line. Craig : 02:43 Yeah. It's so amazing from a community perspective to just bring that kind of weekend traffic into a town. And have people recognize that, as someone who's not a cyclist, there's some hassles involved. But the benefit to the community is so huge. It sounds like everybody just runs with it at this point. Kristi: 03:02 Well, it's referred to as our Christmas, our downtown merchants called. It's their Christmas weekend is Dirty Kanza week, because people are there, and it's an exciting time. And people are spending money and making cash registers ring. It's an economic boom for Emporia, Kansas for sure. Craig : 03:21 Yeah, no doubt. Lelan, I want to invite you into the conversation. Can you talk about your role? Lelan: 03:25 Yeah. My name is Lelan Danes. I'm the race director for Dirty Kanza now. I'm a native Emporian as well, despite my repeated attempts to get away, I felt pulled back at various times. And for the last and what I think was final time, I think I'm stuck in Emporia for the better, for the remainder of my days. I came back about seven years ago, left Carmichael Training Systems to join Jim and Kristy and Tim on this Dirty Kanza venture. Lelan: 03:53 At that time DK was at a point where it was a jump on board or abandoned ship. Meaning that they had all been operating this in their spare time, in their free hours, on evenings and weekends. And it was at a stage where it needed full time help. And so Jim and I made that commitment. We left our careers, and came back to make that happen. Lelan: 04:16 And that was another one of those crucial turning points in DK. It had already moved downtown, the year or two prior. And it was gaining steam, and it needed full time attention. And so I was really fortunate to be able to come back home. It's kind of one of those coming of age deals where when you're 18 and graduating high school, you can think of nothing but getting out of there. And then as I matured a little bit, realized how wonderful Emporia was, and that there was an opportunity in my hometown to do what I love doing, which was bikes. It was just a no brainer. Craig : 04:49 So you came in and it sounds like around the time where it started to be, if you don't register for DK, the moment the registration goes up, you're not getting in. Kristi: 04:58 Yeah, I mean we were getting to our registration was filling very quickly. Yeah. Craig : 05:02 And opening up new course distances, I'm sure, made it even more popular to try to get in. Kristi: 05:08 Yeah, and we added the 25 mile mount distance fairly early on. And then added a 50. And then eventually, I think we added the 50 at the same time we moved. The 100 had been a relay at one point, so it was 200 miles but by two people. And then we eventually turned that into just its own 100 mile distance. Craig : 05:29 Can we talk a little bit about the course? Kristi: 05:31 The Dirty Kanza course? Craig : 05:32 Yeah. Lelan: 05:34 Yeah, of course. Well, for those that haven't been to DK, they've probably likely heard the stories of the flats. And the way I like to tell people is DK is not one knockout punch. It's death by a thousand cuts. And that comes from a variety of things. I'm not literally just talking about the Flint rock that will cut your tires. I'm talking about the literal thousand hills, the endless wind, the exposure to the sun. You just feel like nick after nick after nick, this thing's beating you up. And the gravel itself is amongst the roughest and toughest in the country. Lelan: 06:09 And that's one of those things that maybe we had an idea how special it was, but maybe didn't fully understand what we had in the Flint Hills. But it's just one of those rare landscapes that it has remained untouched because it's so rugged. There's one thing you can do on that land, and that's graze cattle. You can't farm it, you can't plow it. You can't do anything because it is rock. And it's sharp, sharp rock. So that's what that course is like, and it's pretty relentless. Craig : 06:37 I haven't been on it myself, so when you're riding it, is the type of rock that is shifting the wheel around underneath your body? Lelan: 06:45 Yeah, you're going to get a variety. And depending on the time and the situation, if the graders come through or not, you might have a stretch where there's some pretty clear double track, and you're humming along and it feels pretty smooth and fast. But those sections are far and few between. The vast majority of what you're going to get on, is what you'd described. It's not a solid rock base. It's not a solid surface. It's shifting rock, and its fist size. We're not talking crushed limestone gravel. We're certainly not talking pea gravel that you find on a bike path. We're talking fist size chunks of rock that they didn't bother to take the time to break down. They just dumped it on the road and said, here you go. Kristi: 07:23 And the rock was used to make arrowheads and... Lelan: 07:26 Axes. Kristi: 07:27 Axes, and so it serves that purpose on your tires. And [inaudible 00:07:31], sidewall protection are key. Craig : 07:35 Yeah, I can imagine some of the pack riding that happens. There's obviously the benefit of riding in the pack, but the detriment of not seeing your line. Lelan: 07:43 Well this is a conversation that with the World Tour pros that came, people asked me repeatedly, this was talked about publicly on forums and such. It was, what is this gravels just to become road racing? Well, that can't happen at Dirty Kanza. It physically can't because you can't actual on across the road in a crosswind. You can't follow a wheel sometimes. It's more like mountain biking in a sense that you have to ride your own line, you have to ride your own race. And you're not going to get a huge benefit from the draft, because you can't physically stay where you want to stay or choose where you want to be, based on where the wind's coming and so. Lelan: 08:20 And we saw that. What did we see at 2019 DK? Non world pro, World Tour pro Collins Strickland rode away at mile 100 basically, and solo the rest of the way, because no one behind him could organize, or had the strength to even bring him back in. Craig : 08:36 Yeah. Now I love that about the race because I'm definitely one that I think Jeremiah Bishop said it best to me. He said, let's keep gravel weird. And regardless of what the terrain looks like, I do want those parts of it to require a full bag of tricks. Kristi: 08:57 Well and that, your comment there is interesting to me because a lot of times we hear that, I think of gravel as being super inclusive. And I stand by that. And people say, "They're going to ruin gravel." I'm like, "They're not going to ruin gravel because we're not going to let them." Gravel is just that. And it's about what we want to make it. And I think the one thing that's special about Dirty Kanza in my mind is that we celebrate every person that comes across that finish line. We stay out there until 3:00 AM. And so yeah, it's exciting when a pro crushes it in under 10 hours. But we shake Collins Strickland's hand, and move him through the line, and are waiting there for the next person because it's just about celebrating those people, those journeyman athletes that are stepping up and trying something outside of their comfort zone. Craig : 09:47 Yeah. It gives me goosebumps to think about it. I love, it's arguably harder for someone to do it in 15 hours than it is- Kristi: 09:55 Yes, 100%. Craig : 09:56 And probably they're digging deeper, they're certainly doing it for longer. And it's a huge accomplishment for those athletes who just suck it up and get through that day. Kristi: 10:05 And we do not lose sight of that in our event. Any critic that wants to say that about us, they're just wrong. Craig : 10:15 Yeah. Kristi: 10:17 We're passionate about what we're doing for people and changing their lives, so. Craig : 10:21 Yeah, well I think the reports of the event always say that exact same thing. It's celebrating no matter where you're finishing, and finishing is the big deal. Kristi: 10:31 Yeah. Craig : 10:32 One last question on DK. How did the 200 miles come about originally? It's a heck of a distance. Lelan: 10:38 Well, Jim Cummins who isn't joining us here on this, he's one of the original two co-founders of the event. They got the idea by actually going to other gravel events, that were much longer. And Jim will tell you, as he's told us many times, that they settled on 200 because they didn't want to go any further than that. Lelan: 11:01 They thought that it was far enough. They knew 100 wasn't enough. They wanted a challenge, a very hard challenge. But one that most people could grasp is achievable. And 200 seem to be the right number. Craig : 11:12 Yeah. Yeah it's fascinating to me because I think on the West coast we don't see events of those distances. And I think it's probably because you end up with elevation gains that happen more quickly. So you're doing 1000 feet per 10 miles. So it's just not really feasible to have people out doing 200 mile events. So I sort of look in awe and reverence to the athletes that crossed the DK 200 finish lines. Kristi: 11:38 It's an incredible finish line to cross. Craig : 11:40 Yeah. So we're in Bentonville, Arkansas, and not in Emporia. Lelan: 11:45 We are not. Craig : 11:46 And you guys just announced something very special that I think my listeners are going to be keen to hear about. So you guys can Roshambo for who gets to talk about it first. Let's talk about why we're in Bentonville. Kristi: 11:59 Oh, you want to go? Lelan: 12:00 Yeah of course. Well it has been a long time conversation for Jim Christy and myself around the DK office. We knew that there was gravel beyond the Flint Hills. Even as gravel has gone into its probably adolescents, is that where we're at? Kristi: 12:17 Probably. Lelan: 12:18 Yeah, reaching maturity in adulthood yeah. But there's events popping up everywhere, and they're popping up in iconic locations. And there are events who have been going in decades strong. And have fantastic events. But we've still known all along that there are other locations that are ripe for a gravel event, and for a number of reasons. There's great people all across the United States. There's a great geography. And Bentonville is one of those places. Most people are probably recognizing it as a mountain bike Mecca, a cycling destination for single track trail. There's over a hundred miles of single track, all accessible from downtown Bentonville. There's great roads to ride. There'll be hosting the Cyclo-cross World Championships coming up in a few years. But no one was talking about gravel in the NWA, Northwest Arkansas. Lelan: 13:07 And Kristi and I had been in this area before. We have friends down here, not name you Ross. And just came up that gravel needs to happen here. And through our trips, we agreed. And as we scouted this stuff out and spent more time in this community, we were feeling at home. And so all the things were in place to say, let's go forward and let's create an event. And that's what we've got. Craig : 13:31 All right. So what is the event? And when is it? Kristi: 13:36 It's a new event called the Big Sugar. And we've got two distances. The Big Sugar, which is about 107 miles. And then we have the Little Sugar, which is about 50 miles. And there's some significant elevation and lots of hills and hollows, highs and hollows, right? That's what they call them. So we're really excited. It goes through some absolutely beautiful scenery, some amazing roads. We're really excited about the time of year, because the leaves will be in full color, change mode. And it's just a beautiful course. Kristi: 14:09 So, I think we've put together what I think is just a five-star course. So we're really excited about that. Craig : 14:17 Now coming from your wealth of experience in Emporia, what were you looking for as far as the terrain goes here in Bentonville? Kristi: 14:27 I think we wanted it to be challenging but achievable. We wanted some climbing. We wanted some rough roads. Dirty Kanza-ish, so to speak. But also really celebrating the personality of the community is also important when you're putting together a good course. And I think we've nailed it with this course. Craig : 14:48 So I touched on a few gravel roads today, and I'll do a bunch more tomorrow. In fact on the course. In your opinion, what are the roads like? I know what my sense was of the 20 odd miles I rode today. Lelan: 15:03 Well, listen, guys, gals at home listeners, if you have not been to Bentonville and rid some of these gravel roads, it is far more akin to mountain biking than it is even gravel riding in Kansas and around Emporia in the Flint Hills. These are proper climbs. This is not a death by a thousand cuts like DK is. A DK, a typical hill will be a quarter mile, short but punchy. And just one after another. Lelan: 15:31 But at Kanza you've got your periods of flat stretches where you can recover and lock it in a gear and go. You don't have that here. For one, the surface is just about as gnarly as at DK. Kristi and I were just talking, it's firmly category three gravel. If you're familiar with Neil Shirley's scale, which means it's pretty rough. It's big rock. It's gravel, it's proper gravel. And the climbs are big. They are anywhere from one to two and a half miles in length, and that means you get a corresponding descent to follow. Lelan: 16:01 And I think this course, of any of the gravel events I've been on, this could be an equalizer for the more mountain bike crowd that does the gravel. And we were talking about that inclusivity. It's one of the amazing things about gravel is you've got roadies, you've got mountain bikers, you've got triathletes. You've got people who have only gotten into the sport of cycling through gravel, and they're only gravel riders. And they're all coming together out there. And there's different courses all across the United States that have their different flavors. Some are a little bit hard pack and faster. This Bentonville course is definitely a little bit chunkier up and down and gnarly. Craig : 16:39 Yeah, I was surprised, even the 20 miles I rode today. It really was a lot chunkier than I thought it was. My listeners know, I'm typically riding 650 B's, 47, 50 millimeter tires, but I specifically grabbed a 700 C wheel set thinking, I'm coming to a more mellow place, where we were just going to be rolling on dirt roads. And that was not the case whatsoever. Lelan: 17:04 No. Craig : 17:04 So how much climbing does it add up to in the 170 miles? Lelan: 17:07 Well that's always debatable, isn't it? Depending on what program you use and what device you're using. But I think firmly... Well, I don't think we've mentioned the distance. It's right about 108 miles in length for the Big Sugar distance. Right around 50 for our Little Sugar, half distance. And in that Big Sugar distance, it just over 100 miles, you're going to approach 10,000 feet elevation, anywhere from nine to 10,000 feet, depending on the device a person is using. Craig : 17:32 You're going to feel it. Lelan: 17:33 You're going to feel that. That's a lot for a hondo. You're going to be hard pressed to find that elevation, especially throughout the South or Midwest in 100 miles. Craig : 17:42 Do you have a sense of what a pro would ride that distance in, and the range that you might be expecting for athletes? Lelan: 17:50 Well, we had some folks riding this past weekend, and Ted King, Paisan, McElveen, Ali Tetrick were out here. Uri Haswall of course. And I know Payson and Ted were jabbing each other, making claims of six and a half. But it's going to be tough, and it's going to be interesting to see in an actual race setting how fast the front of the pack goes. And what those back in the packers are going to complete it in. Craig : 18:20 Yeah, I think it's going to be, tire choice and wheel choice is going to be important. Kristi: 18:26 Oh yeah. Craig : 18:26 And how hard you're going to be willing to take those descents, given what's going to be in front of you. Lelan: 18:30 Well, and I'll tell everyone this. This will not be the easiest hondo that you do. It's simply won't. This'll be one of the more challenging 100 mile distance on gravel. Kristi: 18:37 Well we even talked about that with the 50. We like to have those tier steps to get into the event, but at the same time, this 50 is going to be a tougher 50. It's not going to be a cake walk. Craig : 18:51 Yeah, it doesn't seem like anything around here would be a cake walk. So that's exciting. So the date was October when? Kristi: 19:00 October 24th, 2020. Craig : 19:02 Okay. And registration? Kristi: 19:04 Yeah. Registration, November 15. Craig : 19:05 Okay. November 15th everyone. This is opening up. And is there a hard cap on the number of riders that course can allow at the time? Lelan: 19:13 Yep. We're aiming for 750 to start. Craig : 19:16 Okay. Lelan: 19:17 For the first year. Looking forward to welcoming that many people to town. Kristi: 19:22 What's our website? Big sugar gravel.com yeah. Craig : 19:24 Okay. Kristi: 19:25 Yeah. Craig : 19:26 And DK allows how many athletes at this point? Lelan: 19:29 Well in 2020, we're looking to register 3,000 riders, across six different distances. And of course that ranges from the 350 mile XL, down to 200, 100, 50, 25, and then our high school distance. And the DK has just grown and grown. And so when we talk about it, most people recognize the 200, which is the feature distance. But we have all those different places for people to have their journey and their adventure. And Big Sugar will be the same. This is called Big Sugar, but you'll have the Little Sugar that you can participate in. And then there'll also be a 20 mile introductory level, more of a familial ride, a beginner ride type of opportunity. So you'll still be able to get out of town on gravel. That's another great thing about Bentonville, is a mile and a half to two miles, and you're out on gravel. Bentonville is not this big metropolis. It's still has a small town vibe, a small town feel. And it's very easy to get around. Craig : 20:25 Yeah. I think that's going to be the fun thing for families and kids to come in and support the athletes. Husbands supporting wives who are out there riding and vice versa. And you've got this beautiful community that I'm seeing for the first time this weekend. And it's a great little town. Kristi: 20:40 It's great, isn't it? It's a cool little town. Craig : 20:41 Yeah. And I've been hearing about the mountain biking progressively over the last few years, but it's no surprise looking at a topographic map that there'll be a gravel ride- Kristi: 20:50 That's why we picked the weekend we picked. It's out-a-bike weekend. Craig : 20:54 Oh it is? Okay. Kristi: 20:54 In Bentonville. And we're synergizing with them a bit. So you can come down for a weekend and buy a demo pass for the out-a-bike, and test out their awesome trails that are here. And then hop on your bike and do a gravel race, and then come back and check out some more trails on Sunday. So it's a full weekend of cycling. And then to top that off, the activities that are here for families in Bentonville alone are great. So it really lends itself to it being a family affair weekend. Craig : 21:28 Yeah. I mean that must be comforting to you guys to know that there's a town infrastructure to accommodate all these people coming in. Kristi: 21:35 Yeah, it's great. Craig : 21:36 Yeah. And do they have similarly sized events that go on in the community already? Kristi: 21:43 To this event? Craig : 21:43 In Bentonville? Yeah. Lelan: 21:44 Yeah. Oz Epic just took place a couple of weeks ago. And that was in its third or fourth running here in Bentonville. They've been out a few years. And I want to say that's around 750 mountain bikers on single track. And so we're starting out at 750, but gravel has the ability to grow a little bit larger in numbers just because of the road is wider. You can get more people out there. Single strap is a little tougher in that respect. Lelan: 22:07 But Bentonville is no stranger to events. And I mentioned at the top of the podcast, they'll be hosting those Cyclo-cross World Championships in a few years. There's an event related to cycling probably every other weekend in this community? Yeah, whether it be just a group ride or an organization pulling people together. People for Bikes just had a big summit down here about a month ago or so. So there was always some type of activity related to cycling. And I think you're really going to see that increase. Craig : 22:39 How were you thinking about the event differently? So Bentonville, different town, different terrain. Are you trying to create something that obviously has the same kernels as DK, but its own unique channel? Kristi: 22:53 Well, I think that's part of the reason why we A, chose Bentonville, and B, are partnering or teaming up a little bit out-a-bike on that, from that perspective. Is that we think it's going to lend really to the flavor of the community. We're also really, I'm really excited about our race directors that we've got coming onboard. We've got Ned Ross who's a hall of fame mountain biker. And really stoked that he's joining us. And then we have Gaby Adams, which formerly Gabby Shelton, is a DK 200 single-speed champion. She's just a badass on the bike, and it's so fun to have a female, another female joining as a race director. Kristi: 23:34 And she's really worked the course hard. Lelan and I- Lelan: 23:38 This is her course. Kristi: 23:39 Yeah, it's her course. Like Lelan and I came down and had given her some tips and some ideas of what we were looking for, and had scouted some roads and taken her with us. And then she put together the route. And it's awesome. To me, being an advocate for women in cycling, I'm really proud that we've got Gaby on our team. Craig : 24:01 Yeah. And is it typically on county dirt and gravel roads? Or are we going into back country trails at all with the event? Lelan: 24:11 No, they're all public access county roads. Although you might be questioning that at times based on the low maintenance [crosstalk 00:24:19] some of them. But so similar to DK in that sense, it's all public roads. There'll be slightly more pavement here, only out of necessity, than what you'd probably find in DK. But to be honest, I think you'll be relieved to have a mile of recovery every now and again. And again, it's 80, it's probably 90% gravel. Kristi: 24:42 Oh yeah. Lelan: 24:43 It's only a handful of miles that you'll be on pavement. And that's only to connect you to the next sweet ribbon of gravel. Craig : 24:49 Yeah. And like you said, I do think it will be this welcome reprieve for people's bodies, to just soft pedal on some pavement for a few minutes. Kristi: 24:56 Yep, 100%. Craig : 24:58 Amazing. Well it's super exciting. It must be thrilling for you both to finally realize this part of the vision that you had at DK, to explore a new community and start something again. And I'm really excited for you guys to take that journey from inception to creating yet another great event on the calendar. Kristi: 25:17 Well and I think that definitely has, like Lelan said, that's been a goal of ours. And then the acquisition of Lifetime, or Dirty Kanza being acquired by Lifetime, was really, that's been what's given us the ability to do this. And that to me is one of the things that's the most exciting about this, is that they're trusting what Dirty Kanza has done, and letting us lead this charge into some additional events. Craig : 25:47 Yeah. Do you imagine that each event will stay in its own lane? Or is there a possibility that they might be linked together in some type of series in the future? Lelan: 25:57 That's a great question. I'm glad you asked, because we haven't really touched on this. Our big picture vision is, as I talked about earlier, there's a lot of great places for gravels still in the US. And we certainly want to create a little family of events. And we are staying completely away from words like series and qualifiers, because that's not what this is. That's not what these events are. So they are a grouping, a family of like-minded events. It's still the DK team leading this and directing it. Working with amazing people who share our vision, and passion for celebrating all these individual achievements. Lelan: 26:36 But there will be a connection, and there will be opportunities at these events. So at Big Sugar for example, any finisher who completes the course within the time cutoff, their allotment of time, if they so desire, they can drop a ticket into a bucket, and we will have some DK entry opportunities. But it is not a, how fast can you go and get on a podium and get an entry, not to receive that golden ticket. It is every finisher is qualified, and has an opportunity. If DK has something they want to try and want an extra helping hand beyond the lottery, because the demand is so high there, there will be opportunities like that. Craig: 27:12 Yeah. Amazing. Kristi: 27:14 Yeah, I think it'll be really cool. Craig: 27:15 Anything else you guys would like to add about the event or the community? Kristi: 27:18 Just make sure you go to Big Sugar gravel.com, and get signed up, so that you are in the know for when we dropped... When the registration opens. Craig: 27:27 Okay. Lelan: 27:27 This is an open registration, which is how DK used to be. Of course, DK is now a lottery. And I just want to reiterate what Kristi just said is, 750 maybe it sounds like a lot of people, but that's going to go fast. And we want you here. We want you to be on it, and be a part of it. So if this sounds like something that gets your goat, then get signed up and come join us. Craig : 27:49 Yeah, I think, everybody put it on your calendar. So I'll put it in the show notes, so everybody has the link. Kristi: 27:54 Awesome. Craig : 27:54 Getting prepared. We'll get this out quickly. I want to share the news to everybody. And I'll give my feelings on social media about Bentonville, which has been great so far. So you guys, it's really been a pleasure talking to you guys. I've wanted to talk to the DK team for a long time, ever since I started this thing 18 months ago. So yeah, thank you. And thanks for everything you're doing for the sport. Kristi: 28:16 Yeah, thanks for coming. Lelan: 28:18 [crosstalk 00:28:18] take you to Bentonville to catch us. Craig : 28:21 Right on. Thanks guys. Kristi: 28:22 Thank you.
A conversation with bike industry veteran Rick Sutton and former Olympian Colby Pearce about fit for gravel cyclists and The Wave Handlebar. The Wave Website The Wave Instagram Colby Pearce Website Colby Pearce Instagram Automated Transcription (please excuse the typos). Rick, Colby, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you, Rick. I always like to start off guys by learning a little bit more about your background as a cyclist. Just contextualizing how you came to riding on gravel. And then I'm super excited to get into the wave handlebar and discussing sort of the innovation you're bringing to a part of the market that doesn't really see a lot of innovation. Okay. This is Rick. Craig and I go back, Oh gosh, quite a few years, maybe double digits. We bumped into each other riding in the San Francisco peninsula. How did I get into gravel writing? What's my background? Well it, it, it hearkens way back to the fact that I advanced to become a professional motocross, sir. And as I got slower at that, I determined that I better become more physically fit. As I was aging. Somebody suggested I buy a bicycle and before you knew it, I was riding and racing mountain bikes as well as motocross bikes in the, in the mid to late eighties. That transition into my career transition from a marketing background into an event promoter, I cofounded the sea Otter classic. Brianne, the Northern national series may have run the very first mountain bike and Duro called Rocktober Fest in 1997 and served on the UCI mountain bike commission and assorted other things over the years. And always rode my road bike with 20 threes on it up in Skeggs point and charisma Canyon and Alpine road and whatnot, and destroyed a few road bikes riding off road. And when gravel bikes came along, while, ah, I was, I was happy as one could imagine to have more tire volume and relaxed geometry. Okay. You were a rider waiting for a product. Yeah, I certainly was. So then, you know, how did the, the wave handlebar come about and take a step back for the listener who may not have even heard of the wave yet. Talk about what were the sort of pressures that the company was feeling that they thought there was an opportunity to innovate in the handlebar space? Well, all credit goes to Don chef, the inventor. You know, I was brought on in the last three years to refine the product and, and created a business around the product. But let's, let's take a moment to cheer Don chef. And he was an elite runner and he is also in the medical industry and he started riding bikes as most elite runners do due to injury. And he just felt that a flat top bar was and uncomfortable especially in climbing situations. And you know, it sounds too simple or too good to be true, but he just began to ride uphill primarily with his wrists and hands at the angles that you now see with our production wave for in essence, resting lightly on the top of a flat bar for floating in air. And he says, wow, this is a more comfortable place to be. This goes back about 10 years. And the first iterations were very heavy aluminum that were fabricated and an automotive machine shop. And that there's been lots of, that's happened over the years. I got involved in 2016 and we launched with a very, very well thought out carbon handlebar in April of this year. Can you help us visualize a little bit about how it sweeps and battens and some of the other features that I read about? I, I certainly can. And I think when, when Colby brings some comments and he'll, he'll talk about the science behind it. I'll just talk about what it looks like. So think about how drop bars have traditionally been designed. And a lot of this is due to the fact that there was an, until recently, recently being the a hundred or more year history of cycling until recently we had a Quill STEM that did not have a detachable base plate. So everything was a common diameter and it was a very simplistic drop bar design because it had to be able to worm its way through a coil stand that did not have a faceplate on it. What we've done with the advent of a faceplate is some other manufacturers have done with aerodynamic shapes. We as, as you visualize a handlebar and you start in the center of the handlebar at the STEM Mount and then you go ahead and fix in space the handle bar drop all of the dimensions where it floats in space on a traditional top bar. We keep that more or less in the same place as well because people like Colby and other fitters have put the writer in a position that optimizes the location of the drops in the location of the great codes and brake levers relative to the center point of the STEM. Now, well between the drops in the STEM, we actually rise slightly up and forward for the first 10% of that distance. And the reason we go forward is because then it takes a gentle bend downward and rearward towards to the drops and to meet with a very nice transitional curve into the drops. And again, Colby, you'll talk about the science of why, but what this does, and for your listeners, if they just told their hands out in front of them as if they're holding onto a the top of a, of a flat top bar and then just rotate your thumbs up slightly at about 15 to 20 degrees, you'll naturally feel your elbows falling against your side, the stress, the tension you feel in your shoulders, your hands subsides immediately. So in essence, all we've done is take what was a stick that got you to your drops and actually taking for the first time. We're the only company that's taken full advantage of the available space between the STEM and the drops to optimize ergonomics. That's a really great description, Rick and I, as you were doing that, I was positioning my hand and my thumb and the way you described and it's really noticeable how the elbow drops and how it feels slightly more comfortable probably in a way as cyclists, given the bars that we've been on historically we never even thought was possible, which is fascinating. So Colby, I definitely want to get you into the conversation. And your background as a cyclist is very rich and your accolades are long. So I appreciate your perspective on this. You spent your career racing on the track and the road. I'm curious for our listeners, how did you define, how did you discover gravel and when did it start to become part of your repertoire? Well I had my, my greatest successes were on the track really. But I've been racing mountain bikes and, and cross since the beginning. I'm, I'm pretty much just signed up as a full bike dorks since the age of 15. Started mowing lawns to buy bikes and went to my first cross race, I don't know, maybe a year later. And did my first mountain bike race on a bike with really narrow bars and no fork. Cause I thought I was gonna crush everybody on the climbs. And, and then of course I fell off on every descent. So that was a good learning curve. But you know, gravel just like I live in Boulder, Colorado, so on the front range here, just like in most places in the U S and in the world, the roads have gotten more crowded so people started sort of migrating to more off road riding and we're blessed with a really good network of gravel roads here. So over the last, I would say probably 20 years, I started riding progressively and more dirt on my road bike and then you know, in and out of racing cyclocross over those years riding my cross bike in the winter cause it's just such a good winter tool here because you can ride, you know, the position's a little more conservative relative to my road bike position. And of course your, your speed is lower. So on days where it's borderline rideable in terms of temperature, when you've got less air speed then you can stay warmer for a little longer. So it offers those advantages. And then also riding around on roads. Sometimes we have icy roads here in the front range and many times the sun will come out and blast the, the asphalt and things melt pretty quickly. But we'll have a week or two here and there where it's, it's pretty icy. And then when you've, when you've got 33 or 35 millimeter wide tires, you've got a safety margin. So it's a good shoulder season or in between your bike to ride. So gravel, you know, in the winter and in the spring has been very useful for us. It's gotta let a utility here, but then in the summer it affords the chance to climb. And you know, for those of you who've never been to the front range, like literally we, we look East and we've got, you can see to Kansas as pancake flat, you turn around and you're at the foot of the Rockies. So I can climb 3000 feet right out of my back door. So we go, I just go get lost in the Rockies and I end up on Jeep roads and dirt roads and lights, single track or sometimes not so light single track. And all those adventures are just perfect for a gravel bike because then I, you know, if I have to ride a Canyon for 20 miles on the payment, it's not, I'm not lugging around a full suspension, cross country bike. And then it just makes the technical aspects of the Explorer scout mode a lot more challenging and fun. So that's kinda my, my playground. Yeah, that makes sense. From my time in Boulder, I could see how a gravel bike would be perfect for there. I always remember appreciating the flat, the fact that you could go East and it could be flat on those days when, you know you didn't have the legs to climb. And then obviously if you head up into the mountains and the canyons, you've got climbing for days. Yup. That's, that's it. So after you hung up your, your professional racing hat, you transitioned still in the sport to be coming a coach and a fitter, which I think is really relevant to this conversation. Can you talk about your work these days? Yeah. So I'm a I'm a category one USCC coach which they're, it's parallel to their racing systems. So that's the highest level you can have. And I've been coaching since about 2005 formally. And then I trained with Steve hog in Sydney, Australia as a bike fitter. I was down there for almost a month. I just lived in Sydney and trained with him and that was a really eye opening and educational experience. Steve's a brilliant out of the box thinker. He, he used constantly looking for new ways to solve problems in new ways to think about things. So he's, he's very unconventional by a lot of fitter standards and I think that's what makes him brilliant and, and a, a really amazing problem solver. And his program was, was pass, fail, like there are fitters who have gone to train with him. And after a week or so, Steve said, look, I don't think this is working out. So I was, you know, honored and also humbled to train with him and make it through his program. And that's been great. So now I, I work as a full time coach and a full time fitter. And I've also got a side project where I'm making track frames that's called 50.1 racing. And between all that and my studies with Paul Chek, I'm also on the Czech Academy currently, which is two more years of basically school to learn about Paul check's methods. He's a strength and conditioning and holistic lifestyle coach for those people who aren't familiar with him. I've got a pretty full plate. But I, I just always want to keep learning and growing my own envelope of knowledge or my own level of understanding so that I can pass that onto my clients in different forums. So. Awesome. Awesome. When it, when it comes to sort of the emergence of gravel over the last, say five years, where the industry has really caught up with what a lot of writers have been doing are ready, have you seen approaching Ryder fit differently than you did prior to this sort of new wave of equipment and new style of riding emerging? I wouldn't say that the base philosophy has changed, which is always simply that from my perspective, at any rate, which this is not how all fitters approach things, but my, my sort of baseline philosophy is that you have to match. On the one hand you have the physiology of the rider. And on the other hand you have the demands of the event the rider is training for or conditioning for and gravel and cyclocross. There's obviously a lot of overlap, not 100% but crosses the sport that I've race myself and fit riders in for a number of years now. And, and so we, I've got the, that baseline understanding of how to fit a brighter for a sec cross event, of course, gravel now, especially with the expansion of much longer gravel duration, gravel races, you know, stuff like well you've got tweener events kind of like Belgium waffle ride, and then you've of course, you've got Kansas, kind of the, the big go to event. In terms of the, the endurance gravel scene or ultra gravel scene, you can even call it almost that changes things slightly. But really the demands of those events are very similar. So not, not in terms of the date philosophy. In terms of some smaller innovations. We've had things obviously like the wave bar and we've had some made some smaller progress. Like for example, the new Shimano GRX Grupo came out and there have been small but noticeable improvements in their ergonomics of their levers in their lever positioning that have been advantageous. But yeah, not dramatically Putting riders in a, if someone comes to you and said, Kansas, my jam, I'm looking for a 200 mile race. Are you putting riders, tell me about the sort of how you might adjust the position versus someone who's racing on the road. Shorter events. Yeah, so, well, I mean, as a general statement across position's going to be slightly less aggressive. So that means a little bit less bar drop, potentially a little bit less cockpit reach close to the same saddle offset from the bottom bracket would be my take on it. And there are a bunch of reasons behind that that I'm happy to get into if you want, but it gets a bit technical. But that depends a little bit on how aggressive the writer's road position is because again, we're always balancing the physiology of the writer or the capabilities of the writer versus the demands of their events. So someone who's got good or excellent flexibility, someone who hinges well at the hip and can ride with an extended spine has good breathing mechanics, good core stability, you can put them in an aggressive road position most of the time. Again, it depends a little bit on their physiology. That's not always the case because sometimes you have a writer who, for example, is very short and stocky not necessarily overweight, but just a stocky build with a barrel chest and that type of rider, you won't be able to get them as aggressive in their road position because when simply put, when you hinge them at the hip, they're gonna start hitting themselves in the chest with their own knees, especially if they've got big bulky thighs or muscly size. You can offset that by shorter crinkle length. But point being is that someone who has a very aggressive road position when we put them on a cross bike, we would, we would reduce their cockpit length normally and we would probably reduce their bars, sell the bar drop just a bit. That'd be a typical starting point. We would also normally, I would typically recommend that people consider sizing up one width in handlebar size. And there are several reasons for that that I'm happy to get into too. Which pertains specifically to the differences between handling on road and gravel. Is that something you would like to hear about? Definitely liked to hear about that because that was my sort of gut reaction when I moved onto gravel was actually bumping out the, the width of the bar. And I think that came from my experience on the mountain bike where we just went wider and wider and it seemed to get better and better. I'm also, I'm in Marine County right now and our gravel scene here are not the sort of long flowy gravel roads. It's, it's you know, double track. It's up and down. There's a lot of fast descending off road, which definitely has created my bike in a way that would be way different than I would have if I was in Kansas for example. Right, right. So thinking about the difference between road and mountain handling or or we'll say road and off-road, it's kinda the difference between MotoGP and motorcross. Right. And Rick can comment had been on this too, but the basics are that in motocross or in cyclocross or mountain biking, we all set up bikes handling wise for a front wheel bias, meaning we have far more weight on the front wheel. And the reason for that is pretty simple. If you're riding, let's say you're riding your cross or or hardtail 29 or down a Jeep road, that's pretty fast, so we're going 25 miles an hour. So if you lose your rear wheel, meaning the rear wheel traction breaks loose. If you're a good handler, most of the time that's not a problem. But if your front wheel breaks loose, there's a higher probability that you're going to have problems staying upright. Now a really good handler can handle the both, but for the bell curve, the rear wheel breaking freeze, okay, the front wheel breaking free, not so happy. Now compare that to a road dissent where you're going 45 miles an hour Gianna's sweeping turn. If you're on your road bike at that speed, it doesn't matter if your rear wheel breaks fee or your front wheel breaks free. Either way, you're pretty much screwed. So there's a big difference in how we handle those bikes off road versus road, and some of that has to do with suspension forks, but not always in a cross bike or gravel situation. It's those rules still pretty much remain the same. The other big difference between road and off road handling is a very high percentage of your road cornering is done by leaning the bike. So very little turning of the bars. Really you're initiating a corner, a corner by leaning and that's because most roads cornering is happening at a higher speed and medium or high speed. Even during a a downhill switch back, you're still carrying speed of 12 1418 miles an hour. So whereas on a mountain bike you have much lower speed corners. In a cyclocross race, you've got corners where you're perhaps doing, sorry, I'll switch our relevant units six kilometers an hour, eight kilometers an hour, so that means you're going to be doing more turning and a combination of turning and leaning and so whenever you want more turning ability, that wider bar gives you simply put a wider lever arm to Le to put more leverage over the front wheel and lean and turn the wheel with less effort. The other part about mountain bike handling in particular is most crashes are at least start or happen because the wheel pretty much flicks out of control from the rider's hands. That can be over a rock art and it can be over a big drop. It could be over a muddy stretch or maybe a wet root. And when the wheel turns too abruptly, too Fastly relative to your own inertia, that's when you to be blunt, go ass over tea kettle, right? So a simple way to offset that is to make change the length of two lever arms. One you make the STEM length shorter and to you make the bar with wider. And there is a relationship between those. So what I'm saying is if you make the bar with wider given to a relative to a baseline, frequently you want to make the STEM link shorter at the same time, some of that can be offset. Why is that? That's when we think about a traditional bar. Think about a traditional mountain bike bar being a T-shaped, meaning a zero zero degree sweep coming back, right? Which there are bars that exist like that. But almost no one uses them. So as you take your hand, if you were to put your hands next to this STEM on the center of that bar and give, and then that gives you a a given reach from the saddle. Now if you move your hands all the way to the outside of that bar, pretend it's really wide, say 800 millimeters wide or 80 centimeters. If that bar is straight with zero sweep, you've increased your reach, not only because you've made your hands wider, but because the bar is getting farther away from you, I. E. it's not on the circumference of a circle. And the center of the circle would be the center point of the circle would be in the middle of your shoulder. So your diameter or your radius really is getting longer. So we offset that, that increase in reach by making a bar with sweep. And really what we've discovered is on road bikes, road, traditional road bars have zero sweep. So even though you're not that far from this STEM, as your hands get further up from this STEM, there's no sweep there. And that's one of the problems with it. And that's why mountain bike bars have developed some sweep. Although I would argue even the trip, typical cross country bar that has eight or nine degrees of sweep is not enough. And to get to the point of the design of the wave bar and why bars should have some sweep as Rick was describing if you stand up and simply put your hands at your sides with we'll say neutral posture, right? So neutral posture would mean the shoulders are slightly externally rotated in the sockets, which means simply put, your shoulders are down and back now and your hands at your size right by your hip. If you take your hand and put it out in front of you, raising the shoulder and the elbow, and now look at the position of your hand without changing anything. And you'll notice that the first knuckle or the pointer finger knuckle is higher in space than the fourth knuckle and that, and you'll also notice that the fifth knuckle is further away from your body. Then the fourth knuckle is both of those factors are what make a traditional bar that comes straight out from the STEM, kind of not ergonomic and we want the shoulders in there most powerful and stable position. We want a slight external rotation to the shoulders. That's what gives us a good ergonomic position, allows us to pull on the bars gently with the lats and also gives us the best chance for shoulder stability and the best breathing mechanics. Interesting. And that was a really great overview and I think a lot of my listeners are gonna appreciate that coming from the road and just sort of understanding how these subtle changes make a big difference when you get into the technical stuff that we get into on our gravel bikes. So yeah, talking further about the handlebar, and I know it's a product that you've spent a lot of time on, sort of how does that translate all these things? Is it just addressing all those minor issues where you can derive benefit from this, a better breathing position and more optimal kind of position to handle unexpected jolts to your front end? Yeah. It's also about even on a more basic level than that, it's about relaxation of the central nervous system. I mean, think about cycling as what is cycling, especially bike racing. Something like Kansas, Kansas, it's a massive load to the nervous system system in a sympathetic state, right? It's a giant sympathetic stressor. It's just, it's a bike race. It's really long and it's really hard. So there's a lot of, a lot of people have looked at the science behind how that impacts the body and all the different levels. And fundamentally that's a giant load on the nervous system. So we want to, we want to set up the bike in a way that's gonna minimize the unnecessary load on the nervous system. And this is something Paul Chek talks about extensively in his strength and conditioning classes. And specifically when you're doing strength training in the gym, think about an a pull down or a pull up, either one. And you can have three types of grip, three orientations of grip in these types of exercises you want. You can have a prone grip. This is the same grip, we would use more grabbing the tops on a bike. A prone grip means that when you go to the pull up bar, your Palm is facing away from the body, right? A reverse grip would be you flip your hands around one 80 so that your palms are facing towards the body, right? And your pinkies are facing towards the midline. Your Psalms are out and a neutral grip. The third option would be as though you are grabbing the bike with Barrons, so the thumb is facing away from the body and the and the pinkies oriented towards your elbow. That makes sense. So 90 degrees to the first two, and there aren't many gyms that have a pull up bar system like that, but you can find them. And Paul's teachings are that the most challenging grip neurologically is the prone grip. That's the one that challenges the nervous system the most. The second most challenging is the reverse grip and the third is the neutral grip. So what are we doing when we ride a bike all the time with a prone grip, especially when we have no sweep or slope to the grip and it's a straight bar situation. We're channel, we're giving this the nurse system a minor challenge all day. Now it's not that you can't ride your bike like that. You can, but clearly someone who signs up for Canada and pays, I don't know, however much it is, $300 for the entry and drives to Kansas and transport or it all year. You're there to race your bike. You want to do as well as you can. You don't want to just ride your bike, you want to optimize things. So this is where this plays in, you know, 180 miles into the ride. You go down a little gully, things get a rowdy you almost fly your hands almost fly off the hoods, then you've got it yet another climb. You know, the, I've never done Kanza, but up here there's just endless rollers basically. So you're on your 99th roller of the day. That's going to be 45 seconds long. And you go to the tops and things get rowdy and your hands don't fly off the bar or you're able to just put a little more effort into the pedals or breathing instead of stacking up the demands throughout the system because the nervous system is very fundamental. When the body has high chance in the nervous system, it's going to cascade up the up the priority on until things get sideways. Yeah. I think that you see a lot of companies starting to address that notion that combating fatigue in any way possible for these log long events is an important component to success. Mm. Well you know, Rick and I were talking about this yesterday. This is a really interesting thing about cycling. I mean cycling is such a beautiful sport and it's got such a long sort of dogmatic and iconic history in so many ways and there's so many things about bikes that have just been done a certain way forever. I mean look how long it took us to get over or actual standards, you know, and, and you know, not to go down the rabbit hole of how the bike industry can agree on anything. But I think we can agree through axles are an improvement over quick releases in many ways. Right. And disc brakes are clearly an improvement over rim brakes. I mean the technology is inarguably superior. Yeah, there are pros and cons to both, but come on. So one of those, this is, this is something Rick and I were talking about yesterday is that an interesting kind of carry over from a lot of cycling is this sort of very old school Sean Kelly perspective on things, which is, you know, starting December 1st or January 1st depending on what climate we were in. And when you're racing season began, you got back on the bike after your break and you just started to endure and what you endured was all kinds of pain and discomfort and this pain and discomfort was to an end, which was to make you tough. Now, the old school model didn't separate certain types of pain and discomfort, meaning at the end of a hundred mile ride or your first hundred mile ride of the season, which was maybe, you know, whatever, January 1st first or something, your legs hurt because you pedaled on her miles and your lungs hurt because you were on the bike all day, but also your neck hurt and your balls were numb, or your lady parts and your hands and shoulders were numb and your feet hurt and your knees hurt a little bit. Right? And this is because there were no foot beds. Shoes were leather, and you got a new pair at the begin of the year and you broke them in over several thousand kilometers. Were you breaking in the shoe or your foot? Well, nobody really knew the difference. You just did it. And you know, if you sit on a fence post or a screwdriver long enough, essentially it won't feel that bad, right? But does that, does that mean we should be sitting on a screwdriver wall? Of course not. Like so now we've learned, right? We figured out, we've made the huge advances in bite fitting and we've got saddles with channels and cutouts in the proper curve that actually match the shape of the bony issue. I'm not go against it and don't support all your torso weight on your soft tissue, your parent, IAM doesn't matter if you're a guy or a gal. We should not be carrying the weight of our torso on our soft tissue. Right? And we're starting to figure out making little changes and things like the ergonomics of birth, big levers, and making big changes in things like the shapes of the bars we're using so that we actually match the ergonomic demands of the human body instead of simply having a carry over. Like Rick said, you know, handlebars, the function of handlebar shape was basically like, well, let's make something someone can grab onto and not fall off of, but also let's do it within the parameters of a to bender. And that can get through a Quill STEM and bars have largely remained unchanged from that basic formula for decades and decades and decades. And we finally looked at it and gone, you know, this doesn't really make that much sense. We can do a lot better than this. What, what, how would we design apart today? Now knowing what we know about the human body. And one more point, sorry if I'm rambling here, but there are a lot of carryovers from really old school bike fitting that are just absolute mechanical and anatomical disasters. And now fitters are starting to figure that out because everything's becoming sort of a a Kobe beef sushi roll, so to speak. We're getting, and we're taking bits and pieces from different industries and starting to integrate them. I mean I've actually heard bike fitters coach, we want your knees to be as close to the top to you as possible. And if you squat in a gym like that, any trainer who knows what they're doing, even remotely will immediately run up to you and say, do you want to have knee surgeries? Stop school fighting like that. So there are a lot of, there are a lot of ancillary benefits. We're beginning to integrate from other modalities of exercise strength and conditioning that we're taking into the world of cycling and are paying off in terms of superior anatomical positioning. Yeah, yeah. Now I think it's interesting and I'd gone back to your point about sort of the, the Sean Kelly approach to cycling and cycle training. I think gravel has, has just begun over the last maybe 18 months to kind of break free a little bit of, it's sort of road history and it's really exciting and creating these opportunities for new products like the wave. Rick, maybe you can talk to some of the sort of the market friction that you see from a sales perspective and just getting people to try something new. And what are some of the approaches you're taking to kind of free people's minds to think about their, their, their components differently? Well, it's, it certainly is a challenge, but I would say that you know, the, the advantages to the gravel rider using the wave are no different than the advantages to the road rider. But when you, when you, the reason I think we were finding earlier adoption and adoption, it's not easy. We're still crossing the chasm of acceptability. But gravel writers are less fashion conscious and there's, there's this desire and the road community, the look, the asked at the coffee shop and, and our bar doesn't look fast, were in fact it is much faster than a flat top, you know, wing shaped bar. Why? Because it the shape of the top actually reduces the rider's frontal mass versus what a flat top are. So although handlebar to handlebar and a glass showcase, our bar doesn't look as aerodynamic, it puts the body in a more aerodynamic position now that when you go to the gravel guys and gals, they just want to get through the day, have a good time, and not have a sore elbow or hand so they can hoist a beer at the end of the ride. So if the, if I, if I talk to a gravel rider that I know, I simply say, you ride this far, you're happier, you're more comfortable and it's easier to drink a beer after the ride. And that seems to be the sales technique that works best in gravel. I also talk about the thumb notch on the drops and how that provides an added level of security because you can just lock into the bar and a very familiar place as you move around on the bike and prepare for technical descents washboards things of that nature. We also, because everybody's to a certain degree of weight weaning, we talk about the exceedingly lightweight of our handlebar of 42 is under 200 grams. And we also talk about the rigorous of testing we've put the bar through to make sure that the writer understands that [inaudible] our mechanical engineers, our testing protocols, our manufacturing protocols are equal to the best bars in the market. You know, that we're not just coming at this as a shade tree mechanics, you know, build in bars in our basement. Those are all things that help bring the rider to a point where they're comfortable trying the bar. And I think mostly you know, whether it's to a bike shop and we do protect manufacturing suggested retail prices or to our website to buy direct we offer free shipping and a 100% money back guarantee within 45 days of purchase. If you just don't like the bar, of course there's a longterm gigger guarantee. If you have any other structural issues with the bar, but try it doesn't cost you any shipping to get it, put it on your bike. And I will say with the with the hundreds of bars we've shipped out, we've not ever had one bar return. So for your listeners, between Colby science and category and the fact that we've never had a bar returned, I think that's pretty much speaks for itself. Yeah, it says a lot. Reckon I think you've done your best to what you can do to eliminate the friction. And I think judging from the site and the testimonials about the bar and listening to Colby speak, people just need to give it a try. It's something that's interesting. It's going to add, it's going to add to your enjoyment of gravel and people need to shake free of the old stereotypes of what the bike needs to look like at the coffee shop and really start moving towards things that are gonna increase their enjoyment of the ride across the board. So gentlemen, I appreciate the comments, Colby. This was really great to hear the science behind fit and some of the philosophies behind how a change in position in gravel really can add to your performance. That was really insightful. I appreciate that. And Rick and Rick, as always, I appreciate talking to you and getting your long insight into the, the history of the sport and and the future really with this new great product. Thanks, Greg has been great. Hi, Colby by Colby. Thank you, Craig for the opportunity to be on the podcast. I'll look forward to, to when it comes out. I'll be sure not blessed all my channels. So, right it.
In a Race Matters first, our resident globetrotter Rhyan Clapham talks race, identity and music with French rapper PM Kanza.
Alison Tetrick Instagram Alison's Bike Packing trip on the Silk Road Tech Corner - Sponsored by Thesis. Thanks, Craig. Let’s talk about seven things to look for in a gravel wheelset. 1. Rims. I look for wide, tubeless, asymmetrical, and carbon. This is going to give higher volume tires a proper base of support so that when you run them at lower pressures, you’re not getting tire squirm. It also reduces the likelihood of pinch flats, improves rolling efficiency, and makes for a stronger, stiffer, more durable wheel. 2. Hubs. Hubs are often the first thing to fail on a wheel, so avoid cheap pall-based engagement systems and small bearings used to save weight and cost at the expense of durability. Instead, invest in hubs with a reputation for bombproof reliability. 3. Spokes. I like a minimum of 24, and ideally 28, lightweight wing-shaped spokes. This offers strength, stiffness, and durability while preventing spoke wind up that can accelerate fatigue and failure, all while maintaining a low weight. 4. Exposed brass nipples. Aluminum nipples split and fail while saving only a trivial amount of weight, and hidden nipples make it a nightmare to true your wheels while offering zero aero benefit. 5. Lacing patterns. I like two-cross patterns for their strength, lateral stiffness, and resistance to torsional loads, particularly when paired with an asymmetric rim. 6. Ignore aero. There are no lightbulb-shaped NACA airfoils for a reason. Unless you’re running tires of roughly identical width to your rim, you’re getting all of the side-wind buffeting with none of the aero benefit. 7. Last, great components can’t make a great wheel without proper spoke prep, strain relieving, spoke balancing, and other hidden details. Therefore, look for hand-built wheels from a brand that sweats the small stuff. So that’s my take on wheels. Now, back to Craig and this week’s guest. Main Episode: (automatic transcription please forgive any typos) Alison, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Alison, as a fan of the sport, I know you as a woman who is usually at the front end of the field, but regardless of where you are, you always seem to be smiling, which is awesome. Yeah, I mean, riding a bike is fun and I think, you know, if I'm not smiling and enjoying it, then why do it? So, yeah, you're right. Whether it's racing and going hard or cruising around to the bakery, I think, I think bikes make you smile. Yeah, that's a good thing for everybody to remember. I always start out the show by asking our guests to talk a little bit about their background as a cyclist, kind of how you got into it, but most importantly like what drew you to gravel cycling because you didn't start as a gravel cyclist. No, I um, I'm born and raised in California. I actually grew up at a, on a cattle ranch down in Santa Barbara County and then up in Redding. Uh, and I played tennis in college in Texas, so definitely didn't start cycling until I graduated college. And I got into running that turned into triathlon and it was my grandfather, um, who recently passed away, but at the time he was saying, Hey, I'll, you know, you should try out cycling. And I was like, old bike racing and Super Dorky, you know, like you're wearing those like rightly hued neon clothing and spandex. And I didn't really want to partake in that, but eventually I bought a bike and hop into some bike races and did quite well when I moved here to the bay area and I thought maybe I'll try this out. And I got invited to the Italian id camp with USA cycling and with Europe and race the national team. So I actually had about a nine year professional cycling career that my grandpa would still just be like, I can't believe, you know, everything I said would happen, happened. And it was awesome. And I raced all over the world and pretty much reached a point in my career where I felt um, satisfied with what I had accomplished and was finding, searching to find more inspiration and what I was doing. I'd done all the big spring classics, I'd raced for the national team, I'd won races on those continents and I'm going, okay, I, I, I have that. And also, um, I found a lot of satisfaction with that, but also I'd had some pretty bad injuries in the sport. And so coming back to recover from a traumatic brain injury, broken bones, just the mental and emotional energy that costs me. At one point I remember exactly where I was in a bike race in Belgium and going into the last corner and I break, you know, and like, I just didn't want to take the risk anymore and I thought, okay, now's the time, you know, you need to, to, to choose a different path. However, I really loved riding my bike and we talked about that at the beginning. Like it does bring a smile to my face. I think there's something so empowering about riding a bike, especially as you know, where we live here in the bay area, I think it's one of most beautiful places in the world to ride. So sense of freedom and adventure and allowing me to express myself made me want to keep in the sport, but figure out where do cry, find something inspiring and find that adventure. And um, you probably know Yuri Wall and Rebecca Rush, they keep like elbowing me thing same way like my grandpa did, hey, try, you know, try some bravo or anything. You'll really love that, you know? Right. And you'll be good at it. And, and so it was with their encouragement. I was like, alright. And I thought I'd done for dirty cans and asked my professional team at the time that they minded, you know, me doing dirty Kanza and they're going, oh, well, you know, you still better do and into California nationals and you don't get slow doing it. Yeah. Okay. I signed up and I was just completely hooked because, um, there's so many things I love about gravel racing and riding on, first of all, of course it's that sense of adventure. It's a little off the beaten path and you know, you're getting on roads you'd never seen before. Your meeting this entire community of people that just think the same way you do, which I think is awesome. And when you're racing a road race, you know, in the streets of Holland or wherever you are, it's awesome and the fans are great. But this way we all get a line up on the start line together at these gravel races. And so you're not operating on this platform. You get a calm and just ride with your friends and also do you have the day, you know, to side. It's just about having fun and finishing and I, and I like that about it a lot too. So long winded answer but there you go. What was that? What was that like lining up for your first 30 cancer when you're lining up with all the women, all the men, all the participants. At one time. Had you ever done anything like that before? Not in a race setting per se, but you know, we think about it, we do a lot of that at Gran Fondo then you know, even charity events that you do on a bike. So it's similar but not in a full blown race. Um, but I think it's, it is nerve wracking. You know, there's a lot of people, you know, you're, you have like a chasing stampede behind you when you do those large events. And I know that that often, you know, causes a little stress. But, you know, I think something, I love the all inclusiveness of it and I love everyone starting together. Um, and kind of starting and embarking on this day and, you know, I do get nervous, still are worried and then I have to just remember like I chose to do gravel racing to, you know, lower my tire pressure and lower and my like life pressure. And like we were saying like, you're not having fun. Why are you there? So make sure you're having fun and, and, and know that you just get a tears, your friends at the finish line with some beer and talk about your, your day. You know, we all have great stories after doing those events. It's such an important part of the sport. I gotta imagine tactically it must feel a little bit different lining up with both the men and the women because obviously there's opportunities to get swept up in packs that will have both men and women in it. Has it, has it changed kind of how you think about racing when you're versus when you're racing in a women's only field? Uh, yes it does. Um, and you know, tactics of gravel racing are constantly changing as some of these events are offering price versus, and you know, there's a certain amount of glory for certain events. So, you know, not only do you have to think tactically lining up with a massive group of people, but also like now we're seeing team tactics, which is interesting and not why I do it. So that's different. But, um, I think you still have to do your own race. And in a lot of these events, especially the longer ones when you're looking at these bravo racing, you know your speeds tend to be a little slower due to the, you know, higher rolling resistance and the terrain. So even a hundred mile event is going to take no longer than it would on a road bike and dirty Canva, you know, obviously much more extreme in the distance. So yes you can, you know, you utilize other people's traffic and you can get caught up in pass. But also like for those endurance events, I think an important thing that we have to remind ourselves of is you have to race your own race and that means you have to stick to your plan because everyone feels like 1 million bucks at the start, eight hours in, you know, if you need to make sure you're fueling and hydrating and taking care of yourself properly for that beginning portion, which sometimes means letting groups go by you because their exertion is higher than would be appropriate for you to do so you can finish strong. Yeah. I think that's, that's great advice for everybody listening cause we've all been there where a group comes by you and you're desperate to get into a draft, but you realize you're just going harder still than you could reasonably expect to finish the 200 mile race in [inaudible]. Yeah. And I, and I think, you know, I've had different tactics, um, approaching a race, like dirty candidate depending on where my fitness is or where my mental state was. And I know this year, um, I finished second there. Um, but it was to not panic at the start when I knew I needed to just for not only like my physical ability but also my mental energy. Like my mental state that day was like, oh, you know, you're going to something with intending do, you're going, okay, what, what can I do to, to a, make sure I'm having fun because I signed up for this, you know, like I registered myself for this event and I been, you know, thinking about this or that for six months. So here I am. So reminding myself, I find out for it, I chose to do this. No one forced me to. So I better be having fun. And then when you're, you have that dark side in the back of your head where this isn't fun, this is hard, you know, her, I don't want her to sale or what if, and this I kept kept saying, you know, race your own race, do you, do you, you know, like believe in yourself that way and just don't panic, you know, like don't worry about some of those external influences that can cause you to panic because that wastes a lot of energy and you need to stay as positive as possible, especially as longer ones. You need to talk positively to yourself and you need to, you know, kind of get through that whole emotional journey that it takes to do a long um, endurance event. Yeah, I think that's probably a great piece of advice for road cyclists who have, have only participated in road events because in gravel, certainly in the distance of dirty Kanza you're going to have dark, dark moments. And the truth is everybody is, and the question is how do you rebound from that mentally and physically? How do you kind of stockpile enough tricks in your back pocket to understand it's going to hurt, you're going to have to go deep. But what are the things you can do to bring you back into a more positive space? Yeah, and that's the thing is I came from like one of my strengths, I don't know the road cyclists with a time trial is so, I mean I, I'd worked a lot on mental focus and preparation, um, which did help me in gravel racing because you know, your equipments dial your plan dials, but now you're taking a 20 minute time trial and making it 12 hours. So that's very different. But something I used in road cycling for time trialing, I'd say we, oh, no matter, you know, everyone loses focus, you know, and now it's just how quickly you can regain focus. But you're looking at it much, you know, fast forwarded version. And so I use that same thing and grab already seen. I'm like, okay, it's really dark right now. I feel horrible, but then how I just kind of have a Rolodex of whether it's mantra songs, you know, anything that can remind me to recenter, refocus, remember why I'm there, what I wanted to accomplish. And then also like if I start taking myself too seriously, like it doesn't matter like how you do just enjoy the day or you know, like whatever it takes to get you out of that place. And then also a joy and I kind of enjoy those dark places you go because you learn really fascinating things about yourself when you're pushed to those extreme limits. And so same thing kind of absorb it. It's, it's like bike therapy, right? And so maybe even using that to get yourself out of it, I go, you know, are you moving forward and making forward progress checks? Are you taking care of yourself? Eating, drinking, talking nicely to yourself? Yes. Okay. And then you can go into this crazy therapy session where end the day the event was so cool, but you do really learn that every day. Training for that and writing like in preparing for it was also really worth it to be able to see what you're capable of. Absolutely. And I think that's what those are. Those finish lines stories that get shared, whether you're Collin Strickland doing 10 hours or you're doing 16 hours, you had those same deep dark experiences along the way that make you want to come back and do it again. Yeah, exactly. I mean maybe you asked somebody right after the event, they'll be like, oh, absolutely not. You know, I would never do this again. And then two days later you're kind of going, all right, well next year we're going to do this. So I mean it, it's fun because I think it is about the challenge and you know, succeeding and whether that's just finishing or conquering the adversity within, um, that's really important. And then it's just finding something I've been kind of watching lately with myself. It's finding goals that inspire me, like inspire me. Like it's not dirty cancer for you then that fine. Is that the local grasshopper series? Is it a grand fondo? I mean, what, what inspires you? Or maybe it's just like a bike packing trip across or something, which I did do last year. Um, so it's finding something that makes you want to ride your bike, enjoy it and finding the right people to surround yourself with and you know, doing a good thing on your bike. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Are there things from an equipment perspective that you look at differently for dirty Kanza than you do for other shorter events? Um, you know, obviously I, I ride the same setups. We're primarily most gravel events. I'm super comfortable on it. Um, I I ride for the specialized, so I ride a like an s works diverge. Um, I have the, Oh man, if I had the new strand EatApp force worn by on it with a, uh, a 44 front changing in a 10 50 in the back. So that was a super helpful and I just did that Oregon trail, gravel grinder accept all the gears for high speeds as well as really steep pitches. So I ran that exact set of for dirty Kanza. I'll run the set up, the same set up for fast you to Oregon trail gravel grinder because I do have all those years, the bike, I run the same tires ticker 38. Um, I know there's other options. I'm just super comfortable on that and I trust the equipment. Um, but for something like Kansas and it's longer, I mean I'm carrying a lot more supplies in case all hell breaks loose. So, you know, I'm carrying two, uh, plugs. Um, camelback, of course I run a chase ass, you know, depending on the event, like how the eight stations works with the duration, like how many bottles are you carrying? Um, of course the camelbaks really helpful for that. And then, you know, how do you on those, um, full design makes this little like snack pack, top two bucks. So that's actually helpful too. So the bike definitely gets loaded down with a lot more necessities, but I think you're not worried about weight, you're worried about survival. So I, I would like to, I like to carry enough to survive and make sure I'm, you know, able to get myself out of a bind if something happens to the equipment worth, you know, care enough to carry extra nutrition to and you know, things like that. Yeah. One of the tips that Yuri Haswell gave on an earlier episode or the podcast was always packing his camelbaks in the exact same way so that he knows what's in what pocket so he doesn't have to think about it. Is that something that you do as well? Yes, I um, I have everything exactly the same and so it's really easy. And the camelback, the chase, best of Nice cause it does sit up higher so you can still have access to your pockets when you wear it. So that's nice too. So I know what pocket has what and then in the taste best as well. I know exactly where everything is and I like I said the same thing of how they keep my bikes in this, the bikes, the same setup as well just so I always knew I had like no surprises on my equipment and I'm a huge data dork and I like to be as prepared as possible. So I do, I like, I like structure there. So I agree with you. I think that's good advice. Nice. Well you've just come off of a massive month of writing between dk 200 and the Oregon trail gravel grinder when you to the five day gravel grinder event. And we did have chat on the podcast as well. So I'm really curious to get your opinion on how the event went. Was it, how was it riding five days in a row? What was the competition element the same as a one day event or was it more of a just an adventure ride? So, um, I go way back with Chad Sperry and he, I used to do a lot of those road races. He used to put on, so he's, you know, Mount Hood cycling classic and Cascade Cycling Classes. Um, so when he asked me to come out to this, of course, I said, heck yes, it sounds amazing. I'm going to feel awful after dk. Do I have to race it? He said, no, you don't. The race it, I'm like, sweet, I'm going to just ride this. And it was the most incredible adventure, um, coming from stage racing and road, like I'm used to that, which is also why I wanted to make it more of an adventure ride just because I know how hard roof like stage racing is and you're camping, so you're doing these points to the point you're camping. And I'm like, you know, I want to be, you know, sitting in the river, drinking beer with my friends after writing and not worrying about covering and going hard the next day. So there was a point he part of the race of course, where people were racing it and then there was a huge portion where it was just an amazing like bike touring adventure. And I fully embraced that for the first few days just to enjoy it. I see them taking Instagram stories and it was so beautiful. I mean, you're doing these 20 some mile climbs up to 7,800 feet through the snow and you know, it's just crystal clear blue days and it was awesome. And also really loved the setup and the prep. Like the minute you got done with the ride, you know, your tub aware of your supplies is there your tent set up for you and you know, then they have food catered in. It was really re like ran spectacularly. And I think there is uh, a good place for the competitive part of the group. But I think there's an awesome place for everything else in between, whether it's just finishing or kind of going slightly hard with your friends but still stop you the aid stations, you know, like not like racing and not enjoying the views. So I really kind of soaked that in the first few days. And then at the last day I was like, I'm going to think I'm just going to go hard today. So I raced the last day, which was at the best kind of fun, right? Like you could mix up what day you want to go hard and the next day you don't want to go hard, you just don't. And stopped at all the aid stations and you know, eat the chips and take photos. Um, but seriously phenomenal. I would put down on anybody's bucket list. It was like, you know, gravel summer camp in the cascades. Yeah. I'm really excited about that. I'm really excited about that format. I just think it's a lot of fun, particularly for the recreational athlete who might take that as their vacation week for the year to just go out and have someone like Chad lay out what they think are the best gravel roads in their area and take care of all the logistics. I mean I'm like, sign me up. Oh yeah. And I, I think that's what I was most impressed with. I mean I, I thought I was worried about it cause I know Chad always does a wonderful event, but I was just going, how is logistics spend a work? And it was seamless. You know, I mean rolled out every day at nine and you know, nine in the morning you'd finish your stuff would be there. You know, it was just really easy and you don't have to think about where to ride. And the course was marked perfectly a and you have eight stations that normally, you know, you'd have to pack a lot more water or food with you because you're out in the middle of nowhere with no town, no cell phone service. Um, and so I loved, I loved the way I did it because I got to stop and enjoy it and still go hard a couple of days so I can get maybe training in but also just like meet a ton of new people and go on roads. I never would have known connected that way. Yeah. Yeah. The funny thing is, I mean, just like a stage race, people are going to have good days and bad days. So there's sort of an ebb and flow to one. People want to go hard even if they are trying to race on the front end of the race. Yeah, exactly. And that was kind of fun too because you know you don't have to go for the overall, you can just go for one day, which I did, which was super fun. That is fun. Yeah. Yeah. It was just, yeah, different like, or he go hard on one climb, but then not pushing on descent and worry. You know about once again, as we talked about risk and things that I find important and for me, it's always that I want to be as safe as possible and I do operate at a high dose of fear, so I'm like, you know, it's really nice. Not that we have to raise this lunge, gravel, descent. It's nice to just to sit up and make sure I'm taking good lines and look at what could the view as I go down. Yeah. Yeah. So transitioning a little bit, 2019 has been a big year for women in gravel, which is super exciting. There's been a lot of promoters who've been making a concerted effort to invite more women to participate in their events. What do you think is going to help draw more women into the sport? Or are there some elements of it that you think are creating a little bit of resistance for women to try? No, I, I don't think this sport's offering any resistance for, um, more gender equality at all. If anything, it's um, really accepting. I am, you know, there's a lot of initiative. I know Christy at dirty cabs has done some huge initiatives for women at Canva rescue Tiesta which is an awesome, uh, gravel ration for Mohs. If anyone wants to go to that one, it's in the snow, but they, you know, really huge pushes as far and as well as Rebecca rest for her. Rebecca's private Idaho. Those are just three events I know that do some really big initiatives to get more women. And I think that way it starts also at the grassroots level and me, you know, it's, it's for you and I and, and everyone out there to be encouraging, like to have more people, in general, join the sport, male or female and not making it elitist and Oh, you need this equipment or you need to do this or you know, I always felt people do that in cycling sometimes as in life. Like they act like what they're doing is so tough and hard that, you know, oh well you're gonna really have to train for that or know they make it kind of this kind of serious thing. And I think that there, it's, it's like our responsibility and my responsibility as a female cyclist too, you know, encourage more participation and also leaving that open and accessible because I would never have found gravel racing as quickly or you know, in the way I did. If it wasn't for a woman like Rebecca Rush or silly meager or you know, these people that reach out to me and be like, hey, come over, come over to the dirty side and like try it out. And instead of being threatened or kg, you know, just going, what information do you need? How can I get you to this event? Like here's your tactic. This is how we can do this, this is how it works. And these women are really powerful. And for them to be accepting and open and leading by example I think is really important too. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I feel like here in the bay area we have so many ass women triathletes for example, that are these endurance machines that you know, once they get burnt out of triathlon, I think it would be a natural transition for them to get into the gravel scene because it will just key into those amazing endurance chops. Yeah, I think there's a lot of correlation between travel and triathlon that way. That is like an endurance event that ends up, you end up being by yourself, you know, sometimes. So it's definitely endurance that way and it's kind of a long sustained effort. And also I, that's what I thought. The gravel does a lot like a triathlon where people are sitting at this finish line cheering on all the finishers regardless of where you know, there's still that party at the finish that more community feel versus you know, show up to local currently. Something I liked, I liked that sense of community a lot. I think, you know what just gets intimidating as people on the terrain, you know, they think, you know, gravel is mountain biking or scary or you know, and so I like to also show my fear and vulnerability on things and say, Hey, well this is, you know, don't push yourself past your limits but try it, you know, and just see what you think or like there was some things that challenge your skill levels is great and then also being safe and you know, pushing other limits is fine too. Yeah. I think locally here in Marin county, the challenge for gravel is it does become technical pretty quickly. Particularly if you're riding out of the city or mill valley. You're hard-pressed to find just kind of a nice flowing gravel road, which can essentially seem like a road ride if you get yourself in the right mental state. I feel like here we're, we're throwing people in a little bit harder than they would normally kind of start at the beginning level of gravel, which is a bit unfortunate. I agree. I call it mountain biking down there. Yeah. I mean, I ride on the, up here in San Omani. I ride pretty much road because we don't really have gravel like where I live on. And then I remember of the week before dirty Canva, the year I won, I, I went down and did two a gravel ride with all those guys, you know, out of the Java hut or whatever down there. And I went and did a ride. And uh, I mean I got so dropped, I like walk to the part of the coastal trails. I can't, I can't do this on my bike. And then they were like, you're really bad at gravel. And like, this is mountain biking. And then the next year, the next week I want cancer. They're like, oh, I'm like, no, but cancer was gravel. That was mountain biking. So I agree. Like we throw people off the deep end. So I don't ride with those guys anymore because I'm too scared when when you're talking about your 38 millimeter tires, I'm like, Gosh Alison, I ride 50s. Yeah, that's probably why I'm pressing up the coastal strip. Yeah. I'm heading out, I'm heading out to steamboat gravel later this year and they keep telling me, oh no, ride 30 twos. And I just, I cannot get my head around it to be honest with you. Well maybe 38. I don't know. I've never written that terrain. But yeah, I mean Oregon, I will tell you, I wish I had bigger, bigger tires that Oregon. It was um, at least 42 I think I would've been happy with. That's what I was laughing. Cause I just like to run the same setup and, and gravel's not like that. There's different conditions and, and you know, gravel, not gravel for everyone. Some dirt, some sand, some, you know, lava rocks. Um, yeah, exactly. What Rock, all gravel is not equal. Totally. And I, I, that is very interesting to me about the gravel bike in general. Just the ability to really change the personality of it. I mean, if you think about how a bike feels using a 700 seat wheel and a 32 knobby tire gravel tire versus a six 50 [inaudible] by 50, it can handle way different terrain. It feels way different. And depending on what your intention is for that day or that ride or that event, you can make the bike more suitable or less suitable, frankly. Yeah, yeah. And it's, um, yeah, there's, there are a plethora of different setups you can do, you know, w depending on, you know, conditions, the gravel and also like rain and mud. I mean, if it becomes pretty equipment intensive if you care enough. And then also when we were talking about bringing more people and the sport, it's also important to say you also can just ride a bike. Yeah. Like I can sit here and geek out on all my, all my techie wonderful equipment. And then also just suggest somebody to pick up a bike on craigslist and yeah, get out on it. Trails and ride cause it's always like, it's always better to ride than not ride. Right. So, you know, it just depends what your goals are. Exactly. I've got a set of more mixed terrain tires that I've been meaning to put on because I want to ride some road and some dirt and some upcoming events and I just can't get around to it because I'm like, I just like to get on my bike and ride. And as you said, that's perfectly acceptable. The important thing is you just getting out there and you're having a smile on your face. Exactly. I mean that's why we do it. I think it's just seriously think about sensory exploration, adventure, riding your bike and enjoyed it. You know, don't take yourself too seriously. So Alison, I can't let you go without asking about your trip to Kurgestan because it's a country that I've researched and seen pictures of and it just looks so amazing. It's such a bucket list place for me to go. Can you tell me how the trip came about and but more importantly, what was your experience there? Yeah, I, um, you know, as we talked about, erased, uh, or, and writers specialize and I got an email from one of my product managers there and she said, hey, do you want to go on a trip of a lifetime? And I'm like, um, please explain. I'm very suspicious. And she goes, well, we want you to go bike pack. You didn't Kurgestan and I will admit I did Google, Kurdistan. Um, and I looked at it and I was like, Whoa, that's very inland and remote and I'd like to click on a couple images. And I was like, yes, yes I do. And they're like, cool, you leave in four days. Like, alright. And I go, what do I need? And they said, I'm free. A spork a 10. And they're like, what do you have? And I go, I've never gone camping. And so they're like, well what do you, what do you need? I'm like, everything. So I borrowed a sleeping bag, I bought everything cause I didn't have anything. Now look at me, I'm camping in Oregon. So it changed my life. Um, it was really, really, really freaking pretty. And I've written all over the world. I think it was by far the most spectacular and breathtakingly beautiful place I've ever been in. So remote, um, we basically rode point to point along the Silk Road, you know, um, started in on, uh, in Kurgastan and then finishing Catholic Sam. And we wrote through China a couple of times and protect the borders, um, for by tax on, you know, setting up my 10 each day and eating freeze dried food. I bought at Amazon, Thank Heavens for the 24 hour, you know, prime delivery before I left for that trip. Um, and we, we like it. It was like riding through every national park in the u s and like each day, like you would be on these like, Hi Grand Canyon looking red desert thing. And then you'd go through like the Swiss Alps, you would go through Yosemite. I mean, it was just, it was insane. And we spent probably at least seven days above 10,000 feet. So, uh, it was above the tree line for most of it. Um, and just these like crazy glacier streams. Um, like you've heard of wild horses, like these Mongolian horses running alongside of you and we would see no cars for days, maybe a few nomadic, um, settlements, you know, maybe like a person or two a day. And other than that we were really remote and just soaking it all in. And it was, it was quite the journey. I will tell you. That sounds amazing. Did the team put together the route for you or is this sort of a known, is it a known section of the Silk Road that would be suitable for a bike packing trip? Um, we actually worked with, um, Cirque cycling, it's s e r k cycling and he does a bike touring company out of China and he came up with a route. And so I don't think it's a popular route per, I don't think it's been done very many times, but he came up with the logistics and the route which him and his team and it was that, that really helps of course, um, you know, for safety, for a organization. From that perspective, it works really well. So we'll, you could kind of just go with somebody and know like that's what we're peddling our bikes today and you know, cause there's a lot of opportunity to get lost or you know, you need specific things to get through protective borders with China and, and, and um, so yeah, to get through safely with a correct visa that you don't really need, but you need to be able to either bribe or, you know, make sure you can get from point a to point d safely. Um, but it was stunning. I couldn't believe like every day we would just go, you know, insert swear word here. This is like Effie Narnia. Like we're like, where are we? Like it's Narnia. Like it was, it was pretty incredible. Definitely bucket list, um, option there. That's amazing. Is there, is there some place online where people can get more information about your trip and, and your experience there? Yes. Um, I did write, um, a story for cycling tips as well as there's a video on there with, you can see the images and I can send you the link so you can put it on here. If you'd like, but I think if you Google out in touch with Kurdistan cycling tips, it would come up. But there's a cool video and then you could also hit a link to certain cycling and, and see also the images because the shots that they got out there were just mind blowing. I can't even, I can't describe. That's awesome. Well I can't wait to watch that video and read more about your trip. It's just sounds amazing. Yeah. So Alison, thank you so much for the time today. I appreciate it. It was great getting your insights about the events you've been doing this year and about women's cycling in general. Um, I hope to run into you later in the year, maybe at SBT gravel. If you're heading out there. I am going to be at gravel world then actually I'd like to support them. Nice. Well that's all has been good. Yeah, the same day, which is a bummer. But yeah, it's a cool, it's really cool of that and I want to make sure we're spreading the gravel love. Yeah, absolutely. I hate when two great events fall on the same day. It just seems unfortunate given the, we could use more events, not less. I know, I know, but I think, I think it'll both be able to be amazing events. Um, and I'm, I'm bumped in to steamboat cause that looks like it's going to be incredible. So, but 30 to 32 millimeter sound sounds small, but I don't know. I've never done that. Between you and I, I can't see myself going down to 30 to 36 or 40 might be my limit. Well, awesome. Thanks Alison. Have a great weekend. You too. Thank you.
A conversation with gravel guru, Yuri Hauswald of Gu Energy Lab looking at nutrition for big rides and gravel bike suspension. This week's tech corner sponsored by Thesis covers the range of suspension options for gravel bikes. Yuri Hauswald Instagram Gu Energy Labs Tech Corner sponsored by Thesis Automated transcription (please excuse the typos!) Welcome everyone to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton. This week on the podcast we've got Yuri Hauswald from Gu Energy Lab. If you followed the gravel scene at all, you've probably seen Uris name come up from time to time. Yuri is a past dirty Kanza champion and you'll find them all over the world racing his gravel bike and advocating for people to get outside in his capacity working for Gu Energy labs. Yuri's got some great tips and tricks around nutrition and hydration that really came to bear in this year's dirty Kanza as well as some great insight into suspension for gravel bikes and when we're going to see them start to have some impact in the market. But first we've got this week sponsored tech corner with Randall from thesis bike. Thanks Craig. So today we're going to talk about suspension on gravel bikes. Tech Corner with Randall from Thesis: Today, we’re going to talk about suspension on gravel bikes. A gravel bike, for me, is a bicycle that performs at a high level on everything from road with a set of road slicks to borderline cross-country riding with a set of knobby 650Bs. For gravel bike suspension, what we want is comfort and control while still maintaining the performance of the bike in all the conditions it’s going to be ridden. So, in order, the first thing I’d be looking at is my wheel tire package. What I want is a high volume tire with a supple casing, set up tubeless on a rim that’s wide enough to support that tire at low pressures without the tire squirming around. The next thing I’d be looking at is seatpost. A traditional seatpost can give you some flex, but it’s pretty limited, so from there you might look at a suspension seatpost. But really, if you’re adding that weight, you might as well add a dropper post. A dropper, again, is going to take your weight off the front wheel - which means off your hands - and put it more over the rear wheel, while at the same time giving you more distance between your butt and your saddle so that you can use your legs as suspension. That is going to make a considerable difference in the amount of shock absorption of your overall system. Next up: touch points. Cushy bar tape and a slightly cushier saddle than you might run on a pure road bike are going to take a lot of the edge off, they add a trivial amount of weight, and they’re relatively inexpensive to add. Now, at this point is where I would stop, but some people might want even more cushion. For them, I’d recommend a suspension stem. What I like about a suspension stem is that it doesn’t compromise your steerer tube or the front end of your bike, and it’s entirely non-proprietary, so you can swap it in and out of any bike. If all of these things aren’t enough, what you might be looking for is a drop bar mountain bike. This means a suspension fork up front or even a rear suspension. However, keep in mind that while that sort of bike is fantastic on the dirt, it’s going to be a bit compromised on the road because it’s going to have some slop and extra weight in the system that are going to take away that snappy feel that you’re used to a road bike with road slicks. What’s great about a gravel bike is the ability to ride at a high level on any sort of terrain, whether it be road or dirt. So my take is: start with your wheel tire package, add a dropper post, add some cushy touch points, and go have a fantastic ride. Yuri, Welcome to the show Well thanks for having me, Craig. I'm stoked to stoke to be on right on. I've always wanted to ask you this question every time I've, I've seen you, but can you describe your background as a cyclist? Like how did you get into the sport and then what ultimately drew you to the gravel part of the market? Yeah, that's, that's a good question cause I didn't, I don't have like sort of the traditional cyclists, uh, introduction into the sport. So, uh, I was a stick and ball kid growing up, you know, soccer, baseball, football and Lacrosse. And then I just, um, Lacrosse is the sport that took me to college. I played collegiate lacrosse a cow, um, and was the captain of the team and MVP and this and that. So that was like, that was my sport all through high school and college. Um, and so I had a good, like endurance engine from all the running we had to do. Uh, but I wasn't riding a bike and I actually didn't discover the bike until I went and taught at a prep school back east in Pennsylvania. This was 93, 94, 95. Uh, and some of the folks I taught with were avid mountain bikers and, um, they started taking me out on rides and I was on a borrowed gt like NASCAR in cutoff jeans and Chuck Taylor's, no joke, total hack. Uh, but I loved it. I loved the adventure of it. I love the camaraderie of it, um, that, you know, exploring new places. We're riding out in like French Creek, uh, park out there like Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania, places like that. Really, really technical stuff. So I was constantly wrecking and breaking parts. Uh, my first bike actually was a specialized stump jumper and I got it because one of my students worked in a bike shop and, uh, hooked me up with a little bit of a deal as his teacher, um, on a mountain bike. And then it just went from there. Um, I, I, I truly fell in love with the sport and the community around it. And, uh, when I moved back to California in 96, uh, is when I really started getting into the racing and, and starting to work my way up through the ranks. And was that on the mountain bike primarily or did you drift into the road as well? Uh, when I first got into riding, it was only mountain bike. I didn't touch a road bike. I think I got my first road bike. I know when I got my first road bike, it was a giant. Um, and it was in 96 and my first century was the Santa Fe century because I was working. Um, I had started my master's through St John's on in literature and, uh, I was living in Santa Fe. Uh, the friend had some dudes who just opened up a bike shop and then one thing led to another. And once I finished my summer of, towards my master's, I started working in the bike shop and became full mountain biker bag, uh, and gave up on my master's and started riding bikes and then started teaching elementary school actually. Um, so yeah, that's how I got into it. And then on the mountain bike side, you started to get drawn to, to the, sort of the more endurance events. Is that right? That's true. That took us, it took a number of years that probably took seven, eight, nine years before I realize that, uh, I wasn't, you know, that good of a cross country racer. I was decent, you know, I mean, I, I worked my way up all the way to Semipro, which is a category that doesn't exist anymore. Um, but that was sort of the stepping stone between expert and pro because that was such a huge gap back in the day to go from being an expert to pro. So they had a semipro category and I made it to that category, but I, there was no way in hell I was gonna ever get out of that category because I was just packed water. Uh, and um, it was actually in 2003 that I did my first 24 hour, um, event as part of a four man team. Um, with mark, we're uh, another buddy of mine, Glen Fan, he's a shop owner up here in Santa Rosa and a gentleman named Kirk Desmond. We did the 24 hour four man national championships that were held at Laguna Seca and we did the geared category, but just as sort of our U to everybody, we did it on single speeds and we ended up winning. So we won the four man national championships in the geared category on single speeds that year. So that was my first introduction to like, you know, back to back hours of, of going hard for 24 hours. And then it wasn't until buddy dared me in 2006 to do my first, uh, 24 hours solo that I really sort of discovered that I have the ability to sort of be that diesel engine and just pedal at a relatively good pace for long periods of time. And, um, I did multiple years of Solo, uh, 24 hour racing and had some, some success with that. And that has actually what allowed me to turn pro. Uh, but you know, when I say that a lot of people think, you know, the, the endorsements and the big money checks started rolling in. Right. And I got to quit my day job. Not True at all. I was really, really nobody. Um, it was just three letters on my license that, um, meant a lot to me. Um, and I still was teaching and you know, traveling during the summers and living out of my car and following the normal circuit and racing as much as I can. But I think it was probably around 2007, 2008 that I started doing more of the eight hour, 12 hour, a hundred mile mountain bike kind of races and um, and kind of figuring out that that was more my jam than the short XC stuff. Yeah, I imagine you see a lot of parallels between the type of community that was evolving around the 24 hour scene back in those years with what's going on in gravel today. Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. The, the 24 hour scene was super familial and supportive and, uh, there was a tight knit group of us, uh, that we're, we're pretty close and that's one of the things that when I discovered dirty cans in 2013, that was the first year I went out there, uh, is what really attracted me to gravel was, you know, Midwestern hospitality, the grovel family. Um, the embrace of that family is warm, it's genuine, uh, and it makes you feel welcome. And, you know, it was, it was that and you know, had been obviously pushing your physical limits in, in new terrain and, and a new sort of discipline of racing that really, uh, attracted me to, to the gravel scene. And I've been, you know, an avid gravel fan ever since 2013. Yeah. It seems like some of those early events, they really set the marker from sort of alter endurance perspective of gravel and subsequently many events have kind of rolled that back to make them a little more accessible. With your 24 hour background, obviously like going into a 200 mile event wasn't completely foreign, although I'm sure it was really hard that first year in 2013. Where do you, where do you think that mix in gravel events is gonna land? Do we have room for the ultra endurance side and the shorter events? Uh, I do, you know, I mean, you see events, you know, offering up, you know, gravel events off, some offering up in, you know, multi distances to kind of appeal to a lot of different folks. Something like a Rebecca's private Idaho, which has, you know, three or four distances, the big one, which is, you know, a hundred miles. And then there's like a, I think a 25 mile, and then there's sort of a tweener distance of 60 miles. So, uh, you know, and then you saw that dirty Kanza two years ago, uh, offered, you know, the super me, uh, you know, the DKA Xcel, um, and, and also has multiple distances underneath the 200, the 100, the 50, and I think they now have a 25 a as well. So I think there's plenty of room. Um, so to offer a lot of different distances because gravel appeals to folks who are wanting to get off pavement, you know, and um, get onto this sort of the quiet back country where you don't see any cars for days kind of events. Um, so I, I think there's, there's definitely room for growth, for events to have multiple distances and that appeals to a lot of folks. Yeah, it's been interesting to me as I personally got drawn into the sport. I was an observer from the side about events like the tour divide and these sort of long distance, multi-day bike packing style races. Um, and I never actually did one of those, but I got drawn into the sport just because it was aspirational to be out there having such an adventure. And in, in my life I tend towards more of the shorter events just because I don't have the time or the physique or the commitment to kind of train up to those 1214 hour events. I really prefer the six hour long events, but I totally get your point. I think there's room for it all. And in the lifetime of a gravel cyclists, hopefully we all get the opportunity to push ourselves to something like dk 200 because I think it's just this huge monumental life milestone that you can take away from having achieved something like that. Oh, most definitely, man. I mean you, you talk about, you know, monumental like life achievements. I feel like my finish this year, while my slowest, possibly my worst finish ever, um, was the most rewarding. Um, because I got to earn the coveted gravel grail this year, which means I finished five, two hundreds of dirty cans. Uh, uh, I also struggled mightily with the heat this year and was showing signs of heat stroke at the last aid station at one 50. So, um, I was really pleased to get through this year and get that grail and, and not have to return again to do another 200 if I don't want to. Well, you were certainly not alone from all accounts. I can hear that people were struggling with that heat and it's hard enough an event as it is. You probably had an experience that was similar to sort of many of the mid packers and the tail end experience every year. Uh, possibly. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I passed so many people sitting under trees myself. I was under a tree at times fixing a couple of flats. Uh, so yeah, I mean the, it's funny Kansas, the weather always has a way of humbling folks and keeping you honest, whether it's, you know, the wind, whether it's the humidity, whether it's the heat, whether it's rain and mud. Um, mother nature always seems to have a, have a hand in how things shake out. Uh, out there in the Flint hills. Yeah. I imagine you got to try to control the things you can and just accept the things you can't in an event like that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I know how to sort of mitigate having had heat stroke a few times. I know how to, how to try to keep it at bay a little bit. So I had a, um, my pit was prepared for me when I came in at one 50 with ice and I was wearing sun sleeves, so we shoved ice bags onto my wrist cause that's one of the spots to bring your core temp down and know I saw my back and I had a frozen camelback, uh, waiting for me. And um, yeah. So they were able to sort of patch me up and push me along my way and I didn't lose too much time, you know, maybe three minutes or something like that. And that last pit, uh, but those last 50 miles were really, really difficult for me. So did you roll out of that last pit with the ice bags kind of just strapped to your body wherever they can fit? Yeah, so, uh, we put ice inside pantyhose and we tie them off so they make nice little porous ice bags that melt on you. And so we shoved two into the sleeves that I had on my arms right on my wrist. Uh, Maya camelback had a, a reservoir that had been frozen so the water would slowly melt and hopefully some of that cool heat would go through on my back then we had multiple cold towels and other ice bags shoved around my neck and down my jersey. And that was about it. A kick in the ass and get Outta here, let's, you know, knock out those last 50 miles. So that's, that's how I dealt with it. I over hydrated to be just because I knew that I needed to keep the fluids going in. Um, and I was using, um, our goos liquid rock cane drink mix because I have a hard time dealing with solids or gels in the heat. So I was going for liquid calories. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask you about, you know, in the things that you can control, nutrition is obviously one of them and it's an area where you have a lot of expertise from goo. Can you walk us through how you approach nutrition for a 200 miler on a hot day? Yeah, totally. I'd be happy to do that. So I mean nutrition, your nutrition plan, I mean everyone's nutrition plan is going to be unique to their system. So I just want to put that disclaimer out there right now that what works for me, you know, may not work for everybody. And also, uh, since we're talking about disclaimers that, you know, I am a goo employee. I've worked for them for six years in the office and I've been at Goo athlete for 14 years. So, obviously I'm very biased, but, uh, I wouldn't be using their products if they didn't work for me. Um, so for me, uh, you know, obviously like the week leading up to an event and you want to be hydrating, sleeping well, mitigating your stress as much as possible, you know, having with meals just so you're topping up all of your glycogen stores and, uh, making sure you have those, those energy reserves ready to be tapped into you come race day, uh, with an event like 30 cans of that starts at six in the morning. I don't typically eat breakfast cause that would mean I would have to get up at like three if I wanted to eat like a proper breakfast. So I think I got up at four 30 this year and had a half of a Bagel with a little bit of avocado on it and that was it. Um, my usual cup of coffee two just to, you know, get things rolling. Uh, and then as far as nutrition goes, I only had one, um, solid bit of food that would, could be considered, you know, normal food throughout the day. Um, and I relied on our rock cane gels, which have three times the branch chain amino acids are rock cane drink, uh, our electrolyte capsules to help with, um, the humidity and all the, you know, the potassium and sodium that I was losing. Um, and then our rock cane BCA capsules, which help with mental acuity and they buffer muscle fatigue. So I sort of, um, shoot for, uh, 200 to 250 calories per hour. And that could be a combination of, you know, Gel and the rock cane drink in my bottles. Um, maybe some of our choose, which is a chewable form of Goo, but I think I only had one sleeve of those, um, throughout. So I basically for 13 hours was only using our rock tane drink, which is 250 calories per bottle. And our rock cane gels. Uh, and one bit of solid I had with that mile 68 station, I had a, um, a Hawaiian done PB and j little, you know, little square. Uh, but that was about all I could stomach solid, you know, solid food wise. Um, and then it was just tons of water trying to, you know, eat every 20 to 30 minutes. But it was hard for me to keep track of time because at mile 40, somebody wrecked me out and it snapped my Garmin off my bike and I had to put it in my pocket so I couldn't look at time, distance or the turn by turn directions. So I was, I was riding blind actually for the whole day pretty much after mile 40, trying to stay in groups. And um, actually I tasked, uh, I don't know if you know Spencer Palisson who used to work for Velonews, but we're in a group for a long time and we've written a bunch together. So I asked him to tell me every 20 minutes, like 20 minutes has gone by and blessed Spencer's hard. He'd be like 20 minutes, dude. He would just shout that out when we were in the group. So I knew I could eat or drink. You see that 20 minutes theory. And so we did that for many miles out on the prairie. So I had a couple other little little curve balls thrown at me, um, during the day that sort of threw off my regular, uh, you know, fueling strategy. But I was all, all liquid calories and Gels, um, along with some castles. Um, and then like the old, I had low middle sip of flat coke at the one 58 station, but I was afraid that it was going to upset my stomach cause I was already dry even coming into that, coming in to that aid station. So I was worried about like too much sugar or anything like that, but it tasted really good. So I just a few sips of that to see if it could like, that'll may sound like a tad. That's interesting. I don't usually think about the liquid calories, but it makes sense to kind of take a little bit in there and then supplement it or really supplement your, your, your good nutrition, um, the gels with the liquid as well each hour. Yeah. I mean liquid calories are awesome, especially in the heat because they're super easy for your body to digest and process. Um, you're not getting, you know, like cotton mouth trying to chew on, you know, some form of solid food. Uh, I find it just works really, really well. I mean, case in point. So our raw cane drink was, I think I was one of the early testers of it, probably back in like 2009 or 10. Um, but our head of r and D who's a former Olympian, MAG DBU, she won western states, the big iconic a hundred mile run in 2015 she ran for 19 hours all on rock chain drinks. So 250 calories per hour. That was her plan. It was super hot that year and that got her through. So I know. And, and, and plus, like I said before, like I've, I've been using our products for, for, for over a decade. And so my system is really used to that and, and I have a routine. Um, so for folks out there who are listening, you know, needs, they need to get, pick and choose, find what products work for them, train with it, race with it, and refine their nutrition plan for their, for what works for their system. Uh, but for me, like I said, it's a, it's our gels and our drink and some of our castles and maybe if it's not so hot bits and pieces of, of solid food, but when it was as hot as it was out in Kansas, like solid food just does not sound palatable to me. Um, and so I just stuck with in liquids and gels. Yeah. I think one of the interesting things that writers need to sort of internalize is there is a hard cap as to the amount of calories your body can absorb in an hour. Yeah. So 350. Yeah. So you're going to sort of waiting an hour and a half to binge at an age station is really going to put you in the hurt locker pretty quickly. Yeah. Because then all of your blood is going to go right to your stomach to try to process that. You've shocked your system because you've just overloaded it. So, um, I have a, have a phrase that I actually stole from my friend Rebecca Rush. I call it the sip, sip, nibble, nibble, plan, right. You're just constantly taking in little the drip drip of nutrition, right? Whether it's your fluids or your gels or whatever it is, but little bits of it, you know, every 20 minutes, um, is way better than like you said, just throwing a whole bunch down. Um, and hoping your body can process that. Yeah. Slow you down. You know what I mean? At the same time, because you know, when you throw all that, all those calories into your gut, your soul, your body's going to try to process that, which means blood's not going to your muscles, which you need to, you know, keep peddling your bike and things can spiral out of control. So I like to adhere to the sip, sip, nibble, nibble, nutrition explained. Yeah. And to remind yourself, I think one of the tips that I employed when I was doing iron man was I just had an old Timex watch and I set an alarm for every 20 minutes to say just eat and drink. Remember that no matter what. Yeah, totally. Uh, you could do that. Yeah, I do that on my Garmin sometimes, but I'm like, I've been doing this for so long, it's just like ingrained in me. I also typically shove a couple of gels right in the cuff of my shorts. So they're like, you know, right there on my quads. So I sort of see them when I'm peddling. Um, it also makes, makes the gels like more liquidy cause they get heated up on your leg and it's just that reminder that, oh yeah, I've got a gel sitting there. I better eat that now. And then you know, I reload it. So I just constantly have these gels sitting on my legs while I'm pedaling that remind me to eat. It sounds silly, but it is a good visual reminder that you need to eat. Yeah, no, I think that's a great tip. And the other thing that I saw a lot of on bikes at dirty Kanza are the Bento style boxes. For sure. Those are, those are, those are awesome. I haven't found a Bento box though. That doesn't rub my legs when I get out of the saddle sometimes, you know, I find that, um, when I get out of saddle, my legs will hit that. So I don't typically ride with the Bento box. But that's a great, that's a great tip too. You know, I wear a camel, that chase vest, which has stowage right on the front chest straps. So your food is right there on your chest too, which is a nice reminder to eat and you can segment it, you know? So like for me, I'm kind of Geeky or I have these little systems that just keep things square for me when I'm not thinking right. Like the right side of my chest is, is like all gels. The left side of my chest is like chews and maybe a bar, which I had bars in all of my chase vest, but I never touched a bar for 13 hours. Um, so there's just little things and like speaking of Geeky things, I do like aisle my rock cane bottle, which is it, which is my drink is always on the is is always on the cage. That's on my seat tube. So I don't even have to think. I know I reached down to the my seat tube cage that that is my calories waters on the down tube, you know, just little systems that I have in place that have worked for me that kind of keep things straight. Yeah. I think they're so important. I mean, I failed to be able to do simple math eight hours into an event. So just sort of having everything where it needs to be, so I don't have to think getting, getting that reminder that it's time to eat and drink and knowing exactly where to grab. It's just one of those things that you can control, you can train for that's gonna make you more effective. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and, and at the end of the day it's less thinking that you have to do because I kind of go into, I call it sort of robot mode where I turn off all my non essential functions with me and it's really like, I don't think about too much, I'm just paddling, focusing on my breathing, my eating and having, you know, my food where I know it exactly needs to be is one less thing I have to think about. I reach into this pocket, that Gel is going to come out, I reach into that pocket, you know, maybe something solids gonna come out. I grabbed that bottle. I know it has calories. Like just, yeah, it just makes it more, it's like, I dunno, simpler. Um, when like you say you're not thinking straight after eight, 10, 12, whatever hours. Yeah, absolutely. Well, transitioning a little bit, I've, I've wanted to talk to you, I saw you down at seawater and I know you had the opportunity to ride the nine or full suspension bike down there and spend some time on it here in Marin county. I'm curious to, to sure. To just get your thoughts about suspension in general and where we're going to see it. Is it going to start having an effect in the racing? Will we start seeing pro's moved to suspension simply because it's faster. You spent a lot of time on a lot of different parts, different types of equipment. What are your thoughts about suspension in the gravel ravel game? Um, well, so just a couple of disclaimers here. Just so you know, everybody's clear. I am sponsored by Laos, which is the Icelandic company that has pioneered, you know, the front suspension fork of sorts for gravel bikes. And they have, uh, they have, um, a bike also specifically designed for gravel. And yes, a niner, um, is about to release MCR, the magic carpet ride, which is a full suspension gravel bike, uh, with a fox front fork that has about 40 millimeters of Daphne and the rear is about 50. Um, so I've been a huge fan of, of the Laos front fork, um, since I got introduced to it probably about three years ago. It was a game changer, um, on many, many levels. I mean, probably the most beneficial one is that it dampens, you know, the impact that your hands, your shoulders, your upper body is taking. Um, when you're rotting, you know, for 10, 12, 13 hours over the slinky hills in, in, in Kansas. So it keeps your upper body fresher, um, less fatigue. You're also able to corner descend better because you're not getting bounced around so much in the front end. You, you can track better with, with the front fork and not four cows, about 30 to 40 millimeters of dampening. Um, the biggest thing I noticed with riding the magic carpet ride is the descending, I mean, you can, you can rip the dissents on a, on a full set suspension, gravel bike for sure. Um, and then the dampening effects too, just as an aging endurance athlete, like anything that can take the edge off the terrain, that'll allow my body to be fresher over 200 miles or whatever the distance is, you know? Yes, please. I'll take that. Uh, you know, I don't need to get, you know, smashed by a really hard stiff light bike. Um, at this point in my career. So I think you're gonna start seeing more, um, suspension bits, uh, enter into gravel. I think you're already starting to see it with some, you know, folks doing like envy doing specific gravel bars that maybe have a little bit of, I have those new g gravel bars that have a little bit of, you know, dampening in, in the way that they have done the carbon. We've, I think, uh, Louth has a similar bar, uh, the whole full suspension thing. I think nine are sort of on the front end of that. Um, we'll just have to see how well it goes. Um, I've been enjoying the magic carpet ride for sure. Uh, I noticed a huge difference like when you're trying to motor through really chunky stuff, it just, it just takes the edge off. You reminds me of when you see a Modo rider like ripping through like the woopty whoop sections and they're just like skimming across the top of all those bumps. I feel like, um, you hit a certain speed on the magic carpet ride and it does the same thing with chunky terrain. You can just really sort of blast through it at a nice high frequency and not get bounced around all over the place. And I had a few opportunities to sort of test that on some group rides and noticed a huge difference. Um, you know, for full disclosure, I've only probably put three to 400 miles on that bike. Uh, and so I'm looking forward to getting some more miles on it, um, later this summer. Yeah. It'll be interesting choice for consumers to try to figure out like, am I really, is that the bike for me or am I looking for something that's more on road and off road that can do fairly capable off road but can also, you know, be my road touring bike or whatever. True. Um, so then maybe, you know, a traditional bravo bike would just allow front fork is, is the option for them because that front fork will allow you to, you know, to get off road. Yeah. I think a lot of it will be dependent upon what people, you know, riding tendencies are on and what they're looking to do. But, uh, the magic carpet ride is awesome for just taken away a lot of the, the, the vibrations and the big hits that you take sometimes when riding on gravel roads for hundreds of miles. Yeah. It was interesting when I interviewed Louth they were talking about riding it on the roads and I couldn't help but think about some of those roads in Sonoma county were having a little bit of front suspension might be helpful for sure. Yeah, it makes a huge difference and you know, there's not a huge weight penalty. I think that what you gain in, you know, comfort and uh, speed and cornering and stuff like that outweighs any weight, this advantage that that fork might have. Interesting. Well, I know you've got a busy calendar coming up and a bunch of great gravel events. One of the ones I want to highlight now, it was on a recent episode of the gravel ride podcast was the adventure ride revival ride and Marin, Tom boss mentioned your name and said, hey, if it wasn't for Uri, we really wouldn't have been thinking about this at this year. So I'm excited. What's going on with that ride. Oh, that was so I'm blushing. That was so nice to Tom boss. Thank you, Tom. I've known Tom for a long time. That's awesome. Well, adventure arrival is a collaborative event between Moran County Bicycle Coalition and the nor cal high school league, which my wife is the EDF and both both programs have teen trail stewardship programs that they are, uh, promoting. And one of the best things about this ride is that the registration fees are going to go help support these, uh, team trail stewardship programs so that we're able to develop the next generation of stewards who are going to be maintaining, hopefully creating new trails. Particularly, you know, in a zone like Marin where, um, trail access trail creation is, um, kind of a contentious, you know, topic at times with folks. Um, and so we came together. A group of us, uh, is working closely with, uh, Matt Adams, one of the owners of Mike Spikes. They're a huge supporter of this event. We put together really rad route that is, uh, incorporates a little bit of pavements and fire road, maybe a little bit of single track, um, that highlights some really cool zones in Marin. Uh, and it's going to be based out of Fairfax. It's September 7th. Uh, we'll have great food, beer, music, uh, but people can know that like their registration dollars are going to benefit, uh, you know, things that will help you know, our future as cyclists. Uh, as people who enjoy playing in the outdoors. And, you know, it's possibly, you know, creating, you know, like kids that might go work for, you know, the park system or you know, other groups that are all about trail advocacy. So I'm really excited to be a part of this event. So goo will be one of the nutrition sponsors, but it's super fun working with passionate folks like Tom and Mike and my wife and Dana and other folks, um, to, to, to bring an event like this to life. Cause it's the first of its kind in Mirena gravel, you know, ride kind of, I wouldn't call it a race per se. Um, but yeah, it's going to be a great day. September 7th, if you haven't signed up do it people. Yeah, definitely. I'm excited about it being obviously here in mill valley and in Moran County. I'm really excited to get athletes from other parts of the bay area and hopefully other parts of the country to come in and sample what we have because I do think it's an amazing area and having covered the scene for, you know, as long as I have, I get jealous that other parts of the country have these marquee events and we've yet to kind of establish one in Marin county. Yeah, it's true. You know, it's tough. I mean, we live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, but work that also sort of, um, you know, restricts what we can do too because there's so much private land and there's so many restrictions on who can use what trail and this and that. Whereas, you know, you look at somewhere like the Flint hills of Kansas and you have, you know, this grid network of thousands of miles, right, of, of empty gravel roads. You know, you look at Rebecca's private, Idaho's same sort of deal. Uh, so yeah, it is cool that we're finally able to pull something like this together, get all the right permits, the permission. That's where, you know, Tom's expertise comes in, you know, having worked for years with, with advocacy and other groups and stuff like that. So yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Hopefully we sell it out and it's an event that, um, continues to grow in, in years to come. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tom was describing how he, I think he had to work with three different land ownership organizations to get the root knocked out this year, which I mean, for the average race promoter would probably be prohibitive to even pull it off for sure. And then, you know, and then there's certain groups that get their noses bent, you know, that were doing this or they weren't involved. And it, yeah, you know, it can be complicated, but, uh, hopefully at the end of the day people see that this is all about the kids really, um, and our future and creating stewards that we'll want to protect in and, you know, expand the growth of, of trail access here in Marin and maybe that will ripple out into other parts of, of the country too. Um, so yeah, stoke for adventure revival on September 7th. Yeah. Well thanks for all the time today. Your, I appreciate it. I appreciate your years of advocacy and participation in the gravel community. You've really been a, just sort of a good steward for the gravel brand, if you will. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I was an accidental, uh, grappled, devote t I mean really like I said, 2013 I had no idea what I was getting into when I went out until my first 30 cans have no clue whatsoever. I went out there because we were [inaudible] as a sponsor, um, to check it out and I fell in love with it. So, um, yeah, I'm proud to be part of the crew that's helping push it here in California and you know, also seeing northern California athletes like Amedee, Rockwell, like Alison Tetrick a do really well at, you know, these iconic events like dirty cans and stuff like that. Makes me really proud. Let's, let's keep, let's keep singing. It's thanks and praises. Yeah, absolutely. Well good luck and everything you've got upcoming and if I don't see you before I'll definitely see you in September at a venture or revival. Awesome. Thanks Craig. Been great chatting with you. Big thanks again to Yuri for coming on the podcast this week. Yuri has been an amazing advocate for the sport of gravel cycling and he's always been super approachable. So when you find them out there in an event, go up and give him a high five. I don't know about you, but I took away some really helpful tips from Yuri this week in terms of how to handle the nutrition for long events. The value of having a system for where you put things. So you just don't have to think and the value of having a timer to remind you to eat and drink and to know what you're going to eat and drink. I think all of these things add up and they're in the category of things you can control when preparing for a big event. So that's it for this week. Big thanks to our sponsor thesis spike for the Tech Corner, and another reminder to just hit subscribe on your favorite podcast app as we're doing a bit of planning for the upcoming year, and we'd like to know how many of you are out there listening. As always, feel free to hit me up on Instagram or Facebook or shoot me an email. craig@thegravelride.bike. We look forward to hearing from you. Until next time, here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.
The ENVE crew breaks down their 2019 Dirty Kanza experience. Join the crew as they talk about bonking, equipment needs, food choices, and other tips on how to survive the Kanza.
Finally they're all back together.Harry tells us all how to navigate in perfect flemishSam remembers the good times of road racingSeb realises he was the reason he lost one of his most prized possessionsSam has an epiphany when trespassing in a fieldNot much else happens, how was it so long?
A conversation with Tom Boss from the Marin County Bike Coalition announcing the Adventure Revival Event in September. Later we talk to Juan De La Roca about the concept of a gravel destination. Adventure Revival Event Registration Marin County Bicycle Coalition Website Explore Las Animas Website (routes and more!) Automated Transcription. Please forgive all errors. TOM BOSS -- Marin County Bicycle Coalition: All right. Tom, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Craig. Yeah, I always like to start off, Tom by learning a little bit more about your background as a cyclist and how you came to gravel riding. Sure. Um, well at first let me start by saying, um, it's a real pleasure to be on your show. Um, I, yeah, I am generally an early adapter. Uh, when it comes to bikes. I was one of the first in my group together, a full suspension bike first to get a single speed first to go 29 or um, but I was a little late on the gravel, the gravel scene and um, I, I jumped on board, uh, at the end of last year, started to really get interested and I actually discovered your podcast serendipitously about the same time, listen to a lot of your older, I'm your archives and, and it was really nice. It was kind of a roadmap for me as I, as I jumped into gravel and I'm learning quite a bit. So just wanting to give you a shout out and thank you for, for the work you're doing. Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. Okay. Yeah. So I grew up here in Moran and, uh, I was bombing down with my friends, uh, on Mount Tam on a 20 inch BMX bike. Um, when Gary and Joe and Otis, we're inventing mountain biking. We're a few years younger and so, uh, those bikes were too big for us. But, um, I've been pretty much riding Mount Tam on a, on some form of a bicycle since, uh, since the 70s. And I'm really lucked out in finding a job at the Greene County Bicycle Coalition, uh, heading up the off road program. Uh, I get to basically promote and, uh, expand bicycling here in Marin, uh, for myself and for everybody else who, who cherishes this, uh, this wonderful place that we live in and visit and enjoy. So it sounds like an ideal job. You certainly, yeah. I consider a Marin county to be an ideal location to be an off road rider. Yeah, we have, uh, as we point out in our, uh, uh, and many of our correspondence, we have 50% of marines land is open as Parkland open to the public, whether it's Mount Tam or China camp. We've got national parks, the CV shore, and lots of open space. And so it really, uh, provides almost, you know, almost everybody that lives in Moran is a few miles away from, you know, amazing trails and, uh, and beautiful scenery. And, uh, so yeah, it's just, it's part of our, uh, it's part of the quality of life here in Ryan for sure. From your perspective at the Marin county bicycle coalition, when did you start seeing the influence of gravel athletes start take over the trails in Marin? That's a, that's a good question. So we, seven, eight years ago we started another bike ride, the, um, or a bike ride, the MCPC dirt fondant, which is primarily a mountain bike ride from the Marin headlands to the top of Mount Tam and back. And, um, right from the start, um, you know, we get a few emails, hey, is this route, you know, are these trails singlespeed friendly or are these trails, uh, uh, cross bike friendly? So, um, so there's, I think the cross in particular, there's a lot of people coming out to our mountain bike events, riding cross bikes and uh, so you could see, um, you know, first you scratched your head, this doesn't make much sense, but then you saw the bikes, you know, get the, some of the wider spacing so they can put bigger tires. And then we saw from that kind of this, this evolution of gravel. And uh, so yeah, just seems like every, every year we have more and more people showing up on different styles of bikes. And last year on the dirt Fondo, you know, I'd say a third of the people where we're not on mountain bikes Ranita or gravel or across or, or a single speed bike. So, yeah, I, for one, have found that some of the trails in southern Marin, they're just more exciting on the gravel bike because they're not, they weren't pushing the limits of mountain bike technology. Once you had a full suspension bike, you were really kind of overprepared for the headlines, if you will. When you're riding on a lot of fire road trails, all of a sudden you get on a drop bar bike and you know, descending a fire fast fire road in the headlands, uh, could give you a thrill again. Okay. Yeah, it really does. You know, without the suspension and what those skinny or tires you have to pay a little more attention and pick your lines again. I used to, you know, focus on lines and in the last 10 years I, with these, you know, big tires and full suspension bikes, uh, you just, I just kind of point and shoot and uh, and, and the gravel has really kind of, I rediscovered a lot of my favorite trails, um, kind of either remembering how it used to be or discovering a whole new, uh, way of traversing them. Yeah, that's the exact same journey I've been on. Just things that I had written for the last 15, 20 years. All of a sudden felt, knew I'd always loved them and had an affinity for them, but now they're pushing my skills technically and made them new again. Yeah, it's real fun. For sure. I caught wind of this year's upcoming dirt Fondo, which is why I reached out to you originally and I was super excited when the team at Studio Vella mentioned that you hadn't announced it yet, but you guys had a big gravel event planned up your sleeve. So can you introduce that event Tom, and we'll start talking a little bit about it. Yeah, so glinted La. It was actually kind of born a little bit out of, out of, from the dirt Fondo we had, um, Erie Oswald and Vanessa, his wife had been coming out to our dirt Fondo for, for years and a few years ago, um, Erie offered, he said, if you guys ever want to do and Gramble event, let me know, I'd be happy to help you plan one. And, uh, so this year we decided to take them up on the offer and we had a meeting with him and we learned that the nor cal league was also wanting to do and gravel events here in Marine County. And so, uh, it was just a no brainer that, hey, we should just join forces and work together and make one really great day on gravel here in Marin. So what's it called? What's the date and what can we expect? So it's called the adventure revival. And we did a lot of thinking about the name. We talked about calling it a gravel, this or that, and uh, but what we are, what we realized in, in thinking about the name and, and developing this ride that Moran has a little bit of a, uh, a history in, in this, in this style of writing. And it is a matter of fact that the guys that started mountain biking, uh, Joe Breeze and Carrie Fisher, notice guy and Tom Richey, uh, back in the 70s, these guys were actually, they started basically on the road and they discovered they found some early cyclocross tires and started taking those bikes on some of the fire roads back in the 70s. And then from there it really evolved, uh, into Ma, you know, then they found the fat tire bikes and, and, and, and started mountain biking. But, um, so, but there's been kind of a history of gravel or, or adventure cycling, uh, more skinny tire drop were bar writing here in Moran for, for a long time. And in the, in the, in the northern California in general. Um, so we decided that we think of it more as adventure cycling. And so we call it the adventure revival to kind of a little tip of the hat to some of those early rides on Belinas Ridge, uh, and also Tom Richey and, uh, Yost brands. We're doing rides down on the Santa Cruz about the Santa Cruz, uh, up in the mountains above Santa Cruz, uh, back in the 70s. So the adventure revival is the name of our ride. It is on Saturday, September 7th, and it will be a journey, uh, from Fairfax, uh, out into the fire roads, trails and roads of last Moran, uh, before coming back to a big party in downtown Fairfax. That's really exciting. I'm super excited about that. And it also, it's, there's a, there's a nice synergy between the dirt Fondo, which kind of predominantly is around the headlands and this side of Tam to starting something over in Fairfax. It's sort of the far end of my normal riding range. I'm really excited to explore with you guys that part of Marin. So are we starting in downtown Fairfax and where do we go from there? Yeah, we'll be starting at the Fairfax pavilion, which is right, right downtown and we'll be heading west on, uh, Sir Francis Drake for a bit and then we'll be going into the marine county open space. Lands will be riding, uh, up on two. Um, Sandra on my red and, uh, two of the routes. We'll take people on to some of the new trails and the Giacomini open space preserve, which are really grapple, friendly and beautiful. You know, you're immersed in redwood forest. Um, and then, uh, then our, our journey, I'll continue west out towards point raise, uh, along Bolinas Ridge. Uh, one route we'll go down the Lima valley trail, which a lot of people don't know about is a, a beautiful trail in the and the point Reyes national seashore. A lot of, uh, interesting, uh, geography happening down there. And then we'll all join back up and, uh, come back, uh, on the Bolinas Fairfax road, uh, into town or we'll have a nice barbecue and festivities waiting for the writers. No, as soon as it is it a mixture of, of double track fire roads and single track throughout the day. Yeah, it's a pretty even mix. There's a single, you know, we start a little bit on the road, get some single track, uh, up up into the White Hill area, go past the Tamar Rancho trail system. Uh, then we're on fire road for awhile. Then like I mentioned, there's that new, some new trails down in the jockey mini preserve that we'll check out. Uh, we're on the Cross Maroon trail through the Samuel P. Taylor park up jewel trail, which is a really nice, uh, trail a lot of people don't check out. And then you're, then you're on that Bolinas Ridge where it's, it reminds me of the sound of music, those rolling green hills and the cows and the smallest band, the background, really a stunning, um, visually, uh, place to be riding. Um, then then a little bit of road down highway one to get to the five Brook's area and uh, and then on the Lima valley trail. So yeah, really it's, it's, I'd say it's a good mix of road, a fire road end and trail. That's great. And that sounds like a fun mix. Terrain adventure. Did you also mentioned to me that you were able to get access to some pieces of property that are otherwise untouchable by riders? Yeah, we're working on that. This is our first year and we're going to keep it all on public lands. But yes, but we're, we've, we've started some conversations with some of the ranchers out in West Marin and we're hopeful that in future years we'll be able to, uh, to provide some routes that will be a pretty special, uh, places, one in a once in a lifetime chance to check out some of the beautiful land. It's not part of the park system. Nice. And are all the trails that are publicly available, are they available year round to cyclists who want to explore out there? Okay. Yeah. So all of these trails that will be on our, uh, you can go out and check them out on your own. Yeah. Four. Well, at least, yeah. 365 days a year. And it sounds like, let's talk in everybody's favorite subjects, tires, wheels. Um, it sounds like with a mixed terrain route, we may not need something super aggressive as a tire. Yeah. There's there, there's enough, there's enough trail that would have roots and rocks and, uh, depending on the conditions, you know, might be a little slippery that I think, I think you're going to want to have a medium to two big tire, um, just to do avoid, you know, pinch flats or, or sidewall punctures. There's Bolinas Ridge has some, some, uh, big routes that you might hit. And, um, yeah, I know on the road, you know, there, there's, there's a, there are some roads sections, so, uh, but, but yeah, I would, I would recommend, you know, a 30, a 38 to 45 millimeter tire, uh, for this ride. Okay. And Are you characterizing it as more of a sort of grand Fonda ride or is as they're racing element to this event? This is more, it's more fondo style where we're, it's a social event. The, uh, the land managers Samarin don't, uh, embrace bike racing. Uh, so this is not a race. This is a ride. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, personally I think travel is a very conductive of more, you know, it's a very social activity. People, uh, you know, can go at whatever pace they like. Um, they'll certainly be some climbs, like a tool and up brand, all that people might want to, you know, test their, their abilities on. Um, but in the most, for the most part, we're really promoting a very fun event. Have Fun Day, we'll have a lot of, uh, a lot of, uh, good, uh, support out on the station or out on the route with, with some really fun activities like we have. But there's this one very rocky section at the top of a white hill fire road where if you, there's gonna be people out there from, uh, one of our sponsors touched on climbing. If you make that section without dabbing, they're going to, they're going to give you a little prize for the effort. So we have a lot of little things like that plan to make it a fun, fun day for everybody. Nice. And I think you mentioned there was a couple of different distances, is that right? Yeah, we have three routes. Uh, we have, uh, what we call the spicy route, which is the big one. It's 48 miles was 6,000 feet of climbing. Uh, we have the medium route, which is 42 miles with 5,000 feet of climbing. And then for people new to a gravel riding, uh, we still have a punchy 23 miles of 2,500 feet of climate. And on the, on the, uh, 23 mile route, is that something that is suitable for beginners in terms of the type of terrain it is, it is suitable, but there, there's still, like I said, that one section I'd mentioned that rocky section at the, um, at the top of the wave hill fire road. Um, you know, you may have to walk that if you're, if you're new to this sport, but in general, uh, that route would be pretty beginner friendly. Yes. Great. And I just have a general question about putting on an event in Marin county. Is it pretty complicated with the various public land holders to kind of organize a re a ride like this? It is, uh, Craig, we, one of the challenges we have is unlike, you know, places like Lake Tahoe where maybe only have one or two land managers of the National Forest Service or, um, that's who usually is the land manager. Here we have four different entities and you never know whose land are crossing. So this ride we're having to permit, um, from we're permitting through open space, marine county open space. We're from writing from state parks or permitting from MWD the watershed, uh, and also the national parks. So that's all for land managers were having to get, uh, to work with to get the permitting for this, uh, event. And uh, they're all very supportive and uh, encourage bike, uh, bicycling in their parks. Um, but yeah, it does, uh, it is a little harder than it is in some places where maybe you're only dealing with one permit and, and the whole ride isn't one on one person's land. Yeah. I think that's what's great about having them Marin county bicycle coalition involved because you have the integrity and longevity of the organization to bring to bear that these land owners can trust you, that you've got their best interests in mind for sure. And we also give back, for example, this part of the, um, one of the things we offered with the permitting for the national park was that we would commit one day of volunteer work on a trail of their choice either before or after the ride. And, uh, and we also have our, our slow and say hello message that we give to all the writers who really remind them that when they're on our, I bet when they're participating in one to borrow against their ambassadors and bicycling and they really need to, uh, be models of a good, um, trail user and you know, be very courteous and obviously obey all the rules. Yeah. Well, I think that's an important note in a important reminder just for everybody listening to support your local bicycle coalitions because they do a lot of work behind the scenes and it's great when you get to come in front of the scenes and create awesome new events for us to enjoy. Um, Tom, I appreciate you coming on the show and telling us about the event. I'm really excited to myself and explore that part of Marin. We will put information about registration up on the podcast notes, um, and we'll get this out as soon as possible, but if you're listening to this registrations already open for this event, there is a cap this year on the number of athletes that the event can hold. So definitely click the link quickly if you haven't already get your slot because Tom and his team are putting on an amazing event that I think is going to be around for a long time. So Tom, thanks for thanks again for joining us. Yeah, well thank you for having me and I look forward to riding with you in September. Juan De La Roca -- Gravel Destinations Juan, welcome to the show. Thank you Greg, really appreciate being here with you this afternoon. So this is a little bit more of a, it's an interesting segment for us at the gravel ride podcasts. Cause one actually reached out over email with a simple question like many of you do and but it was what makes a gravel destination and are there gravel destinations out there in the world? And it struck a chord with me because I certainly in my life have had places I thought were mountain bike destinations like Moab or crested Butte or whistler up in Canada. And I've certainly had rode destinations like borders on in France at the base of Alp do as we're Tuscany in Italy or May. Orca. And all these things resonated with me. But when he asked the question I just had no idea. Like what is a legitimate gravel destination? So one, thank you for bringing that question up and I'd love to have a discussion with you because you live in a place where you think has the fundamental building blocks to become a gravel destination. Yeah, absolutely. So I, I'm a little bit about my background. So I've been in Colorado now for 25 years within the Denver Boulder area, uh, left Denver in 2015. And, uh, actually thought I was going to be done living in Colorado was in that phase where everybody was kind of moving here. We saw a big jump of population and, and uh, we started to kind of pick my, I pick my head up and looked around and said, hey, maybe there might be another place. But, um, I ended up in Austin, Texas down in central Texas, which was actually a great learning lesson because in a lot of ways, you know, often experience with Denver has been experiencing over the last several years with an influx of population pushing people out more into rural areas. So while spending some time riding my bike in central Texas, I a within town outside of Boston called Fredericksburg. And it got me kind of thinking about, you know, what would this kind of look like in Colorado as things start to, you know, take shape and form. And, uh, ended up coming through the town of Trinidad, which is three hours south of Denver, three hours north of Albuquerque. So it's essentially right between the two of them, uh, right on the [inaudible] a corridor and it's an interesting area of the state in that it was sort of the undiscovered forgotten, made fun of unheard of place to go spend time, uh, area of the state. And as I started to look around, I thought to myself, this might be a place that it's going to keep them some growth and activity moving forward as a state car to becomes more popular. And when I first got here, you know, I'm more of a mountain biker. I knew that the, the mountain biking was not going to be super strong because of just the history of the area, a lot of private property, but also too, there's just wasn't a much of a cycling culture. But even a little bit of time that I've been able to spend here over the last two and a half years, I've been pleasantly surprised about the wealth of opportunities and areas to explore, especially on a bicycle. And a couple of years ago I had been doing some consulting work with the local parks and rec department and this idea of developing a product around gravel sites and really kind of jumped out at me just to kind of also take another step back. I, I come out of the advertising industry, consumer research insights trends. I'm really adept at looking at things that are happening and kind of understanding where things are gonna sort of go from there. And um, so I applied those, does that skillset to developing some cycling opportunities in this region. And, and uh, so recently in this, uh, beginning of this year in 2019, working with the Colorado tourism office with able to be in a position to create a second tourism and campaign for this region, specifically focused on the gravel category. And had you started riding gravel bikes herself at that point? You know, I, you know, I say yes because it's, it's funny, right? Cause the cycling industry, it's always been really good at coming up with new categories and products that, you know, say no, this is like the thing that you want to have or this is the direction you want to go sort of thing. So I feel like raffles and we've kind of been there, but at the same time it's never really had this sort of focus of a genre or a segment of cycling, um, like it has in the last several years. So I mean beyond my, my mouth, I can have a Tory by, uh, cyclecross bike and was, you know, just definitely somebody who likes to explore and in was open to, you know, just going out and riding dirt roads. So it was happening. It was sort of natural. But when I started to see, you know, that gravel was really starting to pick up speed and speed, uh, it was starting to get a lot of popularity and following, then that's when I started saying to myself, you know why? Like this is more than just something that you kind of just do because you just want to have fun and explore. It's actually becoming something a little more serious. That's interesting that you took your sort of professional background, your ability to analyze trends and started to see like, hey, the type of terrain which maybe isn't super technical or accessible as a pure mountain biker in Trinidad combined with this trend of drop bar off road activity happening in the bike industry came together to create an opportunity that you might not otherwise have pursued. Yeah, no, it is it interesting in Trinidad because going back to the mountain biking piece, um, so it turned out it's an interesting place. It's, it's going on or a lot of transition right now. It's a rural town. You said a population of 10,000. It's the largest campus in the largest county in Colorado with a total of 15,000 people all together. Uh, so it really has a lot of open space and little crowd. So the cycling community is fairly small here to begin with. I and the mountain biking, it's going to take some time. We, we've actually had some really cool things happen here in the recent months. Uh, the state of Colorado, along with the city of Trinidad, the Nature Conservancy and the trust republic land. It's actually just purchased a 19,000 plus Acre ranch, three miles south of the town. It actually borders the, yeah, so we're really close to the New Mexico border and the border actually goes through the property itself. And so that's something that's going to happen over the next several years, but it's just going to take a lot of work and resources because you know, building trail is a pretty labor intensive sort of scenario. However, uh, there is also a lot of dirt roads already existing on this property, so it's actually going to be something that's going to fold into the overall offering that the county has. Um, the interesting thing is this here is that we have 1500 miles of county road. Uh, when I looked at that number, I thought to myself, I'm like, you know, I know that that's not unique necessarily, but that I feel like that's pretty distinct. And that's a way of kind of talking about why you could be a destination. Because the reality is, is if there's going of your Rick graveled like destination and has to be in a world sort of setting because it, you know, the urban is constantly under the pressure of development. Rose are being lost, can you subdivisions that are being brought in. And so this idea that, you know, the southeastern portion of the state could possibly become a destination to ride a gravel bike because of the fact of its rural setting and it's dirt roads you can't really appealing. And it was really great because at the same time it was infrastructure was already in place. You know, going back to the mountain biking, you know? Right. It costs money to build trust. You've got to get grants, you've got to get, you know, a local buying from your government and all these things that go along with it. But, uh, with gravel, it's really about using existing resources already in place. And, and southeast Colorado is a place where, I mean, it's remote, it's got back country. Uh, it's got the history, you've got scenery, has got culture. It's got a very dynamic sort of, um, things on the plate and give it some substance and worthy of a meal for, for a cyclist, I get to say, right? Yeah. When I got your email and we had a couple of back and forth, I started thinking about, well what are the things in my mind that made a great cycling destination? And I came up with three things and I, the first one was the obvious, which is great writing, but information about the writing. So the available easy availability of roots. The second thing was a cycling, ambiance and a cycling infrastructure, right? I want to, I want to be able to go to a bike shop and get equipment that I need. I want there to be a vibe in town around cycling, even if it's subtle. And the third thing we're events and the reason why I listed events is cause I've, I felt like having events in the community gave people a taste of it and then would make them want to come back. So I'm curious as you, your vision for building out this community and this destination around Trinidad, of those three building blocks, where are you at with each of them? And do you agree with that at all? No, I think you're absolutely right and, uh, in all of this because, uh, you know, we, we've seen it already happened with the mountain bike destination in the road bike destination and each of those stages is found there. Um, I think for me right now with Trinidad where I see it, I think three of those four already, uh, very strongly in place. The fourth is going to take a little bit more of a, um, bit of time. But I think what's interesting is going, cause, you know, you talk about information, you, the availability of information is so fast now. We are such a digitally forward a society that, uh, whereas you know, 15, even 15, 20 years ago, it took a little bit of time. You know, maybe you read it in a magazine or there was a war, you know, word of mouth has been around forever, but there wasn't this sort of critical mass sort of way of like finding information. You're learning about new things. So, um, going back to the Colorado Tourism Office, uh, initiatives that we started at the start of the year. So the campaign is called explore last time dimensions, that dirt series. And, um, I was able to, to create a website, explore Las animas.com and then also start to populate it with content and, um, go out and, uh, get content that we'll be able to speak to people who may entice people to come here. So that would be through photography and video. Uh, right now I am working on film portions of this so that there isn't any films necessarily yet, but we've definitely gotten about three months worth of photography. Content is being pushed out through Instagram and the Facebook and your social media channels and giving people information, um, about where to go. And, and, and that's something I, I, uh, I really took the time to, to, to look at and figure out how I could, you know, best articulate what the writing opportunities look like and where you could go. And so, uh, I, I essentially created 26 different routes. They vary in length. He, there's a section, there would be 25 or less miles and then there's a 40 year last and then a 50 to 75, 75 plus 100 plus. And in the end I ended up with 16 over 1600 miles worth of routes and they're all now on ride with gps, Strava as well as ride spot that people for bikes. Yeah. Well I thought that was awesome. I put a big check mark versus, uh, around information available with your project because the site is great. The, the roots are divided amongst different lengths and there's great information. So if you were to land in that area, you, you know, you have more miles than you can do in a week easily. Yeah, exactly. You know what, it's funny too because I noticed that a little bit overwhelmed because so many people know little about Trinidad in general. It's, it's super interesting. The printed ad was probably one of the first, uh, communities, families in the state of Colorado. I believe it was 1862. Uh, it was where the Santa Fe trail came through. So we have, uh, uh, you know, this idea of traffic coming through here and then the railroad came through. And then of course the interstate though though we have this like traveler mentality, but it also had a lack of people over, especially over the last 15 years, who would actually get off the highway and look at what was here. And I think that that's what's the beauty of bicycles and how popular they are and, and, uh, how appealing they are to people. Just say it pushes people into places that they didn't think they would go into. So, you know, the, the mindset from the, from the Gecko was this was all about discovery and exploring. And so could I added that is where the great writing comes out of, right? Because the people who, you know, go down that road, they tend to have experiences and those experiences become great memories and those great memories become the things that they talk about with other people. So, uh, that's why I think for great writing pieces that we have that it's just a lot of people don't know about it necessarily. But with that information, we're really going to highlight that and, and, uh, give people a chance to get out and experience it for themselves. And then lastly, you were dot. You were talking about events do it. I think, um, we've been fortunate in that there actually has been an event that's been going on here for about five years now. It's called the Pony Express one 16. Uh, this year we actually had them, the largest field that takes place in mid May. Uh, it was started by a gentleman named Phyllis for, uh, Schweitzer, who he runs a copy off to be saddles. And then, uh, the interesting thing with him was that he was a longtime competitor in the Lego 100 as well as the Berkey Byner, uh, a cross country ski race here in Minnesota for a number of years. She's done a ton of events and he came down here on his own in 2012 and started scoping out the area and realize that he could, uh, create a, uh, a course that would be, you know, really in line with what was happening with gravel. So he's actually got a hundred mile force. It's about seven miles outside, starts an n seven miles outside of town. And uh, just last, uh, the last one, we had some really great feedback from people because it was for many of them who was their first time. So I think you're really are spot on with the events because the events are what introduce people to an area. Is there anything, you know, sometimes it's just a, you know, a friendly note from a friend and be like, Hey, let's go to this place. Let's go check this out. You know, I've never there, but let's just go see what it's all about. And you know, they come and then all of a sudden it kind of spirals from there because they start talking to other people and then we go back to the social media police peace and critical mass starts to accumulate. Yeah. Then I think that the hardest piece to kind of get to come together in a small rural community is that kind of cycling on Beyonce and infrastructure, but that, I think it comes with opportunity. Right? You know, you look at the stories around Emporia, Kansas who had dirty Kanza and how, you know, it's clear that in the bars in the, obviously in the bike shops, but the cafes, they've just started to embrace the fact that cycling is a big part of the identity of that community and it's developed this kind of world worldwide reputation for being a cycling hub. And I, and I think you know, business owners are not going to get there by themselves unless they happen to be a cyclist. But the sheer opportunity of meeting your customers where they're at, I think is where a rural community like Trinidad may see an opportunity and you'll start to see some of those cycling elements and fused in cafes and bars and different elements. Yeah, absolutely. I need at this point, I, it feels like cycling general are essentially a key ingredient in the blueprint of the economic development, revitalization of town. You know, I, I, you know, it takes to start seeing bike lanes, you start seeing signage, you start seeing people on bikes and it really starts to dovetail into this activity that happens in a community that is both positive and economically beneficial. And so, uh, you know, right now the state of Colorado in general is, is very much focused on addressing the urban rural divide. And, uh, the cycling pieces is a big piece of it because it, it brings something fresh. It brings, you know, like I say, activity in a way where it inspires people to either get out on a bicycle or maybe start a business and, and, and cater to those people. So yeah, it's going to be interesting. We do have one bike shop in town's been here for a really long time. It's called ultimate sports, uh, in nutrition. And um, you know, they're, they're the only shop here but this is definitely a tower you could virtually see, you know, several bike shops. I mean you can go to a little town like saliva, which is three hours, two and a half, three hours away from us. Uh, definitely more known for it's mountain biking, but you know, that's account or it's smaller than Trinidad, 6,000, but they have a seven bike shops. You know, that's pretty impressive. Yeah. Well this is really interesting discussion. One I, I really truly appreciate you reaching out to me and kind of putting it in my mind cause I do think it's very interesting for our listeners to think about and for the listeners out there, let me know, Ping me if you think your neck of the woods is a gravel destination and let us know if kind of the criteria that we laid out make sense. So I'll put the link to the website in the show notes so everybody can check it out. It definitely sounds like a pretty exciting region. And like I said on the website, there's plenty of rides, just spoonfed Tisa if you're within driving distance, definitely put it on your summer tour. And if it's a flight away, maybe look at the pony express one 60 as an event to be the cornerstone of your trip. But get out there and check out Trinidad and let, uh, let one know what you think. Yeah. I encourage everyone to come and check this place out because I think it's one of those places where right now everything that you wouldn't think it would be, but you want because you're on a bravo. It's got all the things that you want to, you know, find and, and see on a ride, you know, from wildlife to scenery, uh, to just, you know, history, you know, history is the big thing. I think that really distinctly puts us in a, in a different sort of place because a history, something that you know, uh, you see and you feel when you're, when you're around it. So that's the beauty of it. Well, that's super exciting. Thanks for the timeline. Okay. Thank you, Craig. I appreciate it.
Talk about good timing... Pat and Ashton Lambie talk right after his victory at The Dirty Kanza 100 about his victory, gravel racing, world records on the track, and where everything is going.
Welcome to the Slow Ride's Kanza Corner where apparently all we can talk about is Gravel Racing and it's deeply nuanced ethos! We are extremely excited to welcome Whoop as a brand new sponsor of the podcast! Use code slowride at checkout to save 15% on a 12 or 18 month plan! Also! Shred Science Nutrition is back, and is the best way we know of to get your weight and eating habits absolutely dialed in. Head over to Shred Science Nutrition and check out their nutrition plans today! The Slow Ride is also supported by Health IQ! Check out healthiq.com/wap to learn how you can save actual real money on your life insurance. The poddy is also supported by Grimpeur Bros. Specialty Coffee! Our custom WAP roasts “The Full Schleck” and “Cyclocross Friends” are available now! Proceeds from each sale directly support WAP (and SRP)! It's a win-win! Check out grimpeurbros.com and pick up the Full Schleck light roast or Cyclocross Friends espresso. Find us, and other fantastic cycling podcasts on the Wide Angle Podium Network, at wideanglepodium.com! Check out the brand new WAP app available in the Apple and Android app stores! You can listen to us in a variety of ways: Find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere great podcasts are found. Give us a review and rating! We'd appreciate it! You can email us at theslowridepodcast@gmail.com Find us on Twitter: The show (@theslowridepod) Matt (@littleguymatt) Spencer (@spencerhaugh) Tim (@thesuperrookie) Abby (@abimickey)
This is the story of a man who dedicated himself to one thing and put everything he had into it. His story is not without trials, nor is it without victories. Without giving anything away, I'll leave it there and Let Thomas tell his story. Some of the things we talked about were Singlespeed gravel racing, Fixed gear gravel racing, LandRun100, and Dirty Kanza, and his new woodworking business, Maker and Racer. ig: @thechacobandit and @makerandracer website: www.makerandracer.com ******* ig: @bikesordeath fb: www.facebook.com/bikesordeath patreon: www.patreon.com/bikesordeath email: bikes@bikesordeath.com ******* intro/outro music "Eric B. is President" by Eric B. & Rakim
If you want to know what gear to use for Dirty Kanza, there's no one better to ask than the course record holder, Alison Tetrick. She joins tech editor Dan Cavallari to talk about her bike and gear choices for the 2019 Dirty Kanza race, what she can't do without during the long, lonely miles, and how gravel racing has changed in the face of new technology and WorldTour riders entering the post-pavement game. And most importantly, Tetrick lends plenty of perspective on what kind of mental toughness you'll need to make it through the adversity you're sure to face during the long miles before the post-finishline beer.
If you want to know what gear to use for Dirty Kanza, there's no one better to ask than the course record holder, Alison Tetrick. She joins tech editor Dan Cavallari to talk about her bike and gear choices for the 2019 Dirty Kanza race, what she can't do without during the long, lonely miles, and how gravel racing has changed in the face of new technology and WorldTour riders entering the post-pavement game. And most importantly, Tetrick lends plenty of perspective on what kind of mental toughness you'll need to make it through the adversity you're sure to face during the long miles before the post-finishline beer.
On this episode I sit down with Lael Wilcox in Bentonville, AR. Lael is one of the most accomplished ultra endurance bikepackers on the planet today. Her accomplishments are beyond impressive as is her humble and down to earth personality. She is currently riding her bike to Emporia, KS for the start of the DKXL. You can keep up with her @laelwilcox on instagram. ******* ig: @bikesordeath fb: facebook.com/bikesordeath patreon: patreon.com/bikesordeath ******* intro/outro music - Eric B Featuring Rakim - Eric B For President
Rebecca Rusch joins us to talk adventures, endurance and how to go long. - Rebecca's Core Values - Gear and strategy for gravel and long adventures like Iditarod, Kanza, and Leadville - Mindset and Mantras - Feeling unprepared for big adventures + more! If you enjoy the show, please consider supporting it by a) rate and review on your preferred app! Easy and Free! Thank You! b) Pre-Order Shred-Girls by Molly Hurford https://amzn.to/2RBDlJy c) Donate to the Podcast www.wideanglepodium.com/donate
I sit down with professional ultrarunner, science enthusiast, and mountain athlete, Hillary Allen to chat about the athlete's warrior path, how she views strength, gravel bikes, and more. You can follow Hillary on Instagram @hillygoat_climbs. For more nutrition and mountain athletic content, visit http://intheflowpodcast.com.
A conversation with former professional cyclist and current king of gravel, Ted King. We discuss gravel riding across the country, the great community, equipment choices and the inaugural Rooted Vermont event Ted and his wife have created. Ted King Instagram Rooted Vermont Automatic Transcription. Please excuse the typos Welcome to the show. Craig. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate your time. And I usually start out the show by asking for people's background as a cyclist, but in this case, since the con, the topic has been well covered both on your own podcast, king of the ride and in other ones. I want to start off a little later. You're later in your career and just talk about kind of your last year as a pro and as you were looking forward to ending your road cycling career, what attracted you to gravel and how did you really get into it? Oh Man. Um, so my final year racing professional was 2015 and I was at a team camp in about January of that year. Um, that was my 10th year racing professionally. And the, the idea of crept in my mind in January that man, like this isn't the be all end all and I'm having a blast. But I, I, I was 32 at the time and I wanted to step away from the sports, still loving the sport. Um, I was seeing a lot of people, my colleagues and contemporaries being, um, you know, finishing their career, not on the terms they wanted. They were injured and not getting a contract or just not racing to their potential. I'm not going to get contract. And so, um, I was happy that was a contract a year for me. I still love the sport and I just thought maybe this is the time to step away. So shared that idea with a couple of friends and family members. Um, yeah, 32 was relatively young to step away on your own accord, but uh, the timing was right. So fast forward till May and then we're racing tour California and I made the announcement right then, um, you know, race on home turf and figured that would be receptive to, especially in American audience. Um, and, and truly at this point, I didn't know what I was going to be doing moving forward. I have a degree in economics from, you know, reputable school, uh, that, that sends a lot of it's econ majors out to Wall Street. Um, but you know, 15 years removed from the world of finance, that's not the kind of thing you dip your toe into and in your early mid thirties. So, um, I didn't really, I knew cycling would be part of my life in some capacity. I was at that point beginning to coach a few people. Um, but I didn't have the relationships and doing what I'm doing now, which we can get into. It was never a part of the plan. Yeah, there's certainly wasn't, there certainly wasn't a roadmap for you. There wasn't a lot of ex professional road cyclist who had carved out the type of career you've made over the last few years. Yeah, very, very true. Um, so it took, we had this idea, I mean I worked with my agents rocker and said, you know, when we announced it, companies beginning with Cannondale and then ceram came forward and said, you know, we, this is sort of the beginning of the ambassador world saying we know we like what you present this sport and, and you know, you have a good voice and presence in the sport of cycling and sure it is a little bit young to be stepping away. Do you have an interest in sticking and staying involved? Um, and we didn't really realize what that capacity could be. It was like, are we opening a bike shop or we are we representing these brands in some other capacity? Um, so long story short, I mean even at that point, gravel isn't really on my radar. Um, I think it comes to my mind early the next year I met coincidentally south by southwest with scram dealing with, uh, one of these open the road events where you introduced customers and people to um, to new lines of products. So Strand was introduced in the one by, in hydro disc brakes. And, and you know, 2016 this is EATAPP era early tap. And, um, I met Rebecca Rush for the first time, who at that point was the queen of pain. Uh, and she says, Hey, Roddy, he made, she started this, taking this older sister, uh, put, you know, putting her elbow and my side kind of kind of relationship rowdy. You got to come over and do dirty Kansas, this crazy event. It's uh, it's pretty cool and you'll love the community. So I think that was my first formal gravel race, so to speak. Um, but I, I dip my toe in a lot of these sports. Uh, I mean a lot of these of these avenues, otherwise, like I did in your neck of the woods, the grasshoppers, which in 2016 they've been going for I think almost 20 years at that point. These mixed terrain, super fun mass start at 800 person rides. Um, so those sort of things are the doing the 200 and a 100, which is this ridiculous 200 mile ride in the entire length of Vermont from the northern Canadian border to the southern Massachusetts border. Um, which takes place entirely on one road, uh, route 100 given hence its name. Um, and just sort of dipping my toe into the, into riding my bike off road quite a bit, which at that point still, it wasn't what it is. Now. Had you done mountain biking earlier in your life? Yeah, I got into the sport. My older brother was a, uh, collegiate national champion, um, and he got me into cycling in general. Uh, I was on the competitive side getting into it in college. Um, I've obviously not, obviously I grew up riding a bike and banging around town and riding my friends' house and stuff as a kid, but through my teenage years, he just basically didn't ride a bike. Um, so I got into competitive cycling and, and immediately it was more gravitating towards mountain biking. So, uh, yeah, I mean a race mountain bikes in college and a tiny bit after that, but at a decent level, not by any means any sort of national level. Rebecca convinces you to go to this crazy race called dirty Kanza. Yeah. Um, I, I think dk at that point lived in this world that was not centric with mine. It's this a massive ride in the middle of America that it's a sort of flyover state that that mysteriously is attracting thousands upon thousands of people, whatever. I'm not terribly interested. However, given Rebecca's nudging and, and uh, I had heard of a few other former pros who are doing it and Neil surely was doing it. Um, I said, yeah, they gotta check this thing out immediately. Fell in love immediately. Got It. And understood it and, and saw this vibe that that is being alluded on. The, uh, my background, the road racing side, um, I think there's something about the math starts. There's something incredibly cool about people finishing off throughout the day. Um, so that, you know, if you're a little bit on the faster side, you can come back, finish, grab a beer and then hang out downtown commercial street and watch people in this festival atmosphere cheering and going nuts all throughout the rest of the afternoons. Um, so from there it's spawned a whole bunch of other events. I mean, I call them 30 cans, it's like the granddaddy of of gravel, but it's, it's so cool to see how many other events are coming up. Um, you know, steamboat, gravel, SBT, G RVL. Um, and probably even in 2016, there was the early subconscious part of my mind spinning that maybe this is something I want to create. Like I love the sense of community. So fast forward to the present. Um, my wife and I have our creating our first gravel event this summer called rooted Vermont. That's amazing. You know, stepping back for a second, I think, you know, at that time in which you are entering the sport, which coincides roughly with, with my, my own entering into the gravel scene, you start to dig in and you discover things like dirty cancer. And you're like, holy crap, these things have been around for quite some time. And I think a number of them, like, like the grasshopper, I had Miguel the organizer on and to celebrate his 20th year. Yeah. And uh, you know, they've been proving it all along that you can ride what at the time when they started were straight up road bikes off road and just have that joy of exploration that I think many people in the cycling world are now discovering as you just described. Yeah, exactly. It's awesome. The, the reception of the industry to it. You mean for the early years? Yeah. You take your road bike and you go off road and then you're sort of tinkering and creating these frank and bikes that are exactly designed to be the right tool for the job, but you get them to work for the, for the road or path you're working on. But then fast forward to the president and the entire industry is behind that and the bigger clearances and the gear ratios that are advantageous to go up. Ridiculous. Lee Steep hills or disc brakes, um, all of these things just make it so much more receptive, which is think is also another reason why it's booming so big. Yeah. I think for the average cyclist who's not going to get any technical support, it's the sport has evolved so much that the equipment can withstand the type of abuse that you're, you're putting onto it. Whereas, whereas before, you know, you were just running through equipment because it just wasn't suited for the terrain. Right, exactly. Yeah. And I imagine it was also really interesting and it sounds like he expressed this, that however awarding it is to be part of, you know, a thousand person ride that you actually care to see the last people finish. Yeah. I understand where my reception initially was. Uh, they were like, oh, here's this, you know, who's a roadie? Like, welcome to the pro tour of gravel. Uh, I never, I never received that, which is, is honestly heartwarming from the gravel community. Um, I mean, I think they, the, the receptionist that strong and people are always interested in talking before, during, and after. Like, what equipment am I running or how am I treating the training for this? Or how do I treat any particular event given a 10 year history in the sport and, and you know, the level of professionalism that I can bring to it. Truly, when I retired from bike racing, I mean 2015 like I stopped screaming. I still love riding my bike and I love doing coffee shop rise and doing basically taking advantage of all the things that I was missing as a, as a professional roadie. So I mean even down to group rides, sure. Group rides there are valuable to get some, some quick fitness, but I would largely skip them because my training was so rote and monotonous and, and interval heavy is that it wasn't able to dig into the social side of the sport. So yeah, it's been, it has been that community that, um, that has been so heartwarming throughout my time now in this, in this growing burgeoning, blooming world and gravel. Have you seen your sort of personal choice of equipment evolve over the last few years? I think I remember you starting out with a a Cannondale slate at one point, which is a suspended front suspension bike. Yeah, I mean it's cool to see these, these cycles and macro cycles within the sport. I mean that that bike in 2016 that was sort of early six 50 B. Um, we also conference, um, the, the inch of travel was a huge advantage in that first year of dk. I noticed it was myself and Brian Jensen who's a, he's a former pro from jelly belly, crazy strong guy. He, the two of us are duking it out at dk and I noticed that every descent that's a little bit gnarly that front suspension is like soaking up a few seconds of time. So I'm rolling away from every descent and you don't want to ride away from a guy so far from the finish. But that technology was really helpful. Um, I've segway to to 700 seat, just being a six foot two individual and figuring that bigger are going to be an advantage over the long haul. But already in this mini cycle that I'm talking about, you see six 50 be making a big resurgence and with the ever wider tires. Um, I mean bikes that can fit two inch wide tires are more that are quote unquote gravel bikes. I think you're going to see at a large number of bikes going at six, six 50 be a direction. Um, tires have been a huge, huge change. I mean, even, you know, three years ago, 2016, the, the number of options for four tires was limited. The tubeless technology wasn't Stephens a fracture where it is today. So that disc brakes, I mean, all of these things are, are so, uh, welcoming as a, as a consumer. I mean just, it just, it makes the writing so that much more fun. Or You spicing up your tire selection based on the course these days. Um, spicing it up. I'm working with a company called Renee hearse, um, formerly called compass and there they have yon. Hyde is the, uh, founder of the company and chief engineer. And he comes from the, uh, he's up in the Pacific northwest where they have, he does the huge random nay type of events. So you know, many, many, many, many hour events. Um, and he is really introduced the wider tire concept to me. So you know, I'm writing a often a 40 or 44 c with tire and he and his community are used to writing 50 or more, 50 more see width. And with that you can run lower pressures. You don't need as Nabi attire or any knob it off or for a huge amount of terrain. And so he is totally introduced this concept to me of running a slick, a wide slick. It really low pressure. Um, I did that at land run with, with huge success. I mean the rolling resistance is so low. Um, and then they also do have an absolutely killer tired with, uh, with tire called this delicate Steilacoom, um, which looks, it looks very old school nature. Um, it's just these sort of big knobs, uh, pretty symmetrically throughout the tire, but it's genius is its simplicity and that again, it has really low rolling resistance until you need to really jam and like grabbing to to the terrain below you and it has awesome grip. So I mean the, what I love about tires, how is, is I have as many whips slick as I want or this one really fast rolling grippy knobby tire. And from there you can basically ride anything. Yeah, I think that's interesting cause it's totally counter intuitive that you can take, which is effectively a wide slick and ride it almost anywhere off road. I've been on that journey myself and it's nice and been fascinated that you can do it and then it just makes mixed terrain riding all the faster. Sure. And you're, you're in mill valley, correct Morin. So we'd write I'm a dry day and tan or even, you know, super wet day. I realize that you're coming off a very damp winter. Like Tam is designed for these tires, uh, sharp rocks. But, but you know, the stuff that you do want to soak up a bit of a, the Chunder I'm underneath you. So yeah, run runner like fat 44 47 50 and you're like riding the couch down the road. It actually is a perfect segway into, one of the things that as always most interested in me about gravel is that it changes so dramatically depending on what part of the country you're in. And I think you are personally uniquely qualified to help me explore this because you've lived in Mill Valley and you've done a lot of the iconic events across the country. So if we look across the country and maybe we start in, start with, uh, I think in Vermont there's raspy pizza. We look at that. We look at land run 100. We look at dirty Kanza, we look at riding at in steamboat gravel, and then we look at coastal trail and Diaz urge in mill valley. If you're coming to go flat out on those particular races or rides, are you changing your equipment as you cross the country? Um, I think also with the go the gracious support of the industry, it allows the sport to be much more accessible to the average consumer or entry level consumer or experienced consumers. So it's a pain in the butt to change tubeless tires. It's a pain in the butt to work on, uh, you know, to, to get rid of road or rub on disc brakes. Um, you don't like to change cassettes and drive trains. So here's another comparison, you, you through these events out. I came out to California in January and rode the coast ride within Gumbo. We ride from San Francisco basically down highway one all the way to la. So we extended the day, throw in an extra hundred miles. It's basically four days, 500 miles. I wrote that entire thing on these stellar Coombs, so 44 slick tires, no problems. Fast Rolling, a little bit of gravel, but you know, 99% payments. And then I wrote the exact same bike. Sorry. My point is I want to Cannondale super x. So it's a cross bike that's so freaking efficient, yet compliant and accepting of huge tires that it can handle this, this massive fast road group pride as much as it can handle. The next week I did the first grass off for the year. Um, that one was quite a bit Chenery. Uh, it was a pretty gnarly course. There's a brand new one called low gap that Miguel put together. And so all I did was switch the wheels. Um, I had different tires on this different set of wheels, but it was the same set of zip through or threes if you're the stellar curves, it has those knobs because we had, you know, some damp, super steep, gnarly climbs to do and a sense. So I think all of the, basically it's the width, the width of attire that you can take an a bikes these days even on a road bike. Um, my, my road bike, I can fit a slightly navi 30 to see tire. You can go off road with that. Like it's, it's absurd, but it's so cool that you can pull your bike in any direction. Yes, I totally agree with your point. I guess what I'm trying to explore, just like you know, if you bought your bike in mill valley, what would you have set it up with versus if you bought your bike in Kansas? Zilch. No different. Um, maybe a slightly different gear ratio, but even that is, is sort of a moot point. I mean if you're in mill valley, you've got some long climbs but he got plenty of short steep ones in Kansas. You don't have extended climbs but they certainly have short, punchy ones. So that's a small to negligible difference. Um, tire selection. I mean I think people are looking for the optimally size tire and, and I have largely been trying to convince people that simply go wider. Um, I mean we were coming from traditional road racing where a decade plus ago, well over a decade ago it was 23 see tires and 25 seat tires and 28 seat hires and then 30 see tires. Um, cyclocross had such a big influence too. Were you also talking to comply with UCI rules? Where I think you can only have like a 33 it's ridiculous. Like my road tire is wider than what's permitted in the cyclocross race and I get you don't want to ride a motorcycle with a, you know, 60 [inaudible] with tire where you can just burn every corner in a UCI cross race. But let's make the sport fund accessible. And I think with this is a huge aspect to that fun side of cycling. Absolutely. You're preaching to the choir here. I tell everybody that the bigger, the better. The on the width as far as I'm concerned. I just haven't really, I haven't really experienced the downside to having a wider tire. Zilch. I think people, they have the hesitation that that wider is more rubber is slower and I just, I can't, I can't get behind that. I mean, uh, you know, the, the 44 c slick that are on the coaster ride, 500 miles pour days, fast moving group, it slowed me down to zero, so yup, go wide, go big. I think that's awesome. That's good information. I appreciate you dispelling some rumors for me. Right on pleasure. Well, let's talk about some of the events that you really love. I mean, the other thing, you know, I love having course designers, which now you are a course designer for the event you and your wife were putting on. What are the elements that you're trying to achieve in the course there in Vermont, and what is the, the vibe and the experience you want people to walk away with? Yeah, so we've been, you know, Laura and I are very lucky to have experienced so many events, um, and really hit, I guess, you know, there's virtually none that I come away from thinking like, oh, that was not good. So we're taking an already elevated playing field of like exceptional events and then trying to draw on each one of these. Um, and one thing that we are really trying to hit home is purely that this is going to be a Vermont Summer Party. Um, we're calling it mile mullet protocol. So, you know, business up front and party in the rear, um, meaning it will be competitive. It's going to be hard. Um, I think there are, there's a misconception in Vermont that yeah, we have some craggy hills and it's the northern Appalachian mountains, but it's nothing like, you know, folks who were coming from Mill Valley for example, where you have tam or Hamilton or Diablo or the Rockies. We don't have these extended climbs. No. But collectively over the, over the 45 or 85 mile routes, like it is, uh, a nonstop relenting unrelenting day in the saddle. Um, I went out with two friends yesterday. I'm pre-rolled a good portion of the course. Um, it is, it's absolutely spectacular when we want to showcase this state. I have a strange barn fetish wear. I just love the nostalgia of barns of all types and styles. New Barns are beautiful, old barns are beautiful. Um, so we go by dozens and dozens of bars throughout the day. Um, but then one thing that I, again, that party atmosphere, like I want people to be racing for the finish in order to hang out, in order to have the community in order to have, uh, you know, the absolutely exquisite Vermont Ipa is too great barbecue and fresh corn on the cob and just showcase what, what Vermont in the summer is all about. Are we talking about mainly sort of dirt fire roads or are you on some narrow or terrain as well? MMM, so Vermont is cool because it has literally more gravel roads than it does paved by mileage. Um, it's um, sort of making up this number now it's pro 70 or 80% or more, probably 80% gravel come August 4th. Um, it's the, it's super, well, we have a huge variety, but there are really fast rolling buffed, basically highway of gravel. Um, where, you know, a flat tire is something that's never going to happen. Um, high speeds are very easy to attain, very undulating, up and down basically nonstop. You're doing a thousand feet every 10 miles or tiny bit more. Um, and then we do go into what Vermont calls class for roads, uh, which are definitely, you know, enters a, uh, a little bit, much more. It taps into your bike dexterity. Um, it's not pure single track. It's not like you're taking your bike off and he'd just gnarly schools the jumps. But yeah, it'll, it'll challenge you in some short stints. So, um, yeah, we got, it's got the full Monte over here. How much climbing, how many vertical feet? We'll the 85 mile ride take riders over. Uh, it's looking like that thousand for every 10 miles, so 8,500 feet. Okay. Um, and then I think the longest time is 15, 20 minute range. Um, prewriting yesterday was a little bit deceptive because as the snow melts, right now we're in, in the spring mud season that Vermont is renowned for. Um, so certainly will not be the case come August, but the road is sort of this soppy soggy mud. So you're moving at a fraction of the speed that you'll be moving them in dry, buffed, out gravel. Right, right. Well that sounds awesome. I mean it's, I mean, I was excited when I heard you announced it because I assumed you were going to take everything you've learned along the, you know, dozens of events you've participated in and try to make it, uh, set the bar that high and for you and Lord, I kind of crossed over that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean we, we, we've just seen so much great community at these events. Uh, so maple syrup will be a theme. We'll have plenty of fun and surprises out on course. Yeah. We're, we're here to show people a good time. What other events are you excited about this year and your season? Um, we touched a little bit on land run 100. That was a mid March, March 16th. Uh, so that was my first time going out to race in Oklahoma and Bobby went to on his crew were put on a, an amazing event there. Um, it's, it's relatively young Bobby school because he has a connection to Kansas. He has a connection to the original 30 cans of folks. So with this greater community that is gravel cycling, the folks at Dk were very helpful and to Bobby and creating his event. So you know, there are only a handful of years in and then bringing in almost 2000 people to Stillwater, Oklahoma. I mean that's, that's incredible. Um, so I had a blast there. I'm excited to go out to one called the epic one 50, which is in Missouri and late, uh, late April, first time racing the Ozarks. So that's going to be a hoot. Um, then probably or definitely go out to Belgian waffle ride in early May, which is probably the last big set up for dirty Kanza come June one. Um, so looking to defend the title at dirty Kanza, which is going to be the most competitive year by a landslide, given the pure number of current professionals and Prorodeo teams that are showing up. So that's going to be kind of fascinating. Um, SB TGR Vl steamboat gravels on this calendar. I'm really excited about that one in steamboat Colorado. Uh, they're doing a sort of a similar thing and that, you know, it's relatively distance, 140 miles, absolutely spectacular terrain. Uh, they're on the Rockies, like steamboat in the summer is heavenly. So really looking forward to that. Um, and the first time going to international and headed to race called the rift over in Iceland in, uh, late July. Nice. So no shortage. And then, yeah, definitely very excited about rooted Vermont. I'd be remiss if I didn't say rooted vermont.com. That is August. The event is August 4th. Uh, but we're doing a whole Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you know, festival prewrite group rides. So August two through four is the full Monte. That's awesome. It sounds you've got a great season ahead of you. Yeah, it's busy. That's for darn sure. Yeah. It's going to be interesting as you've kind of trail blazed this path for professional road athletes to see who kind of comes out of the Peloton thinking, you know, maybe I will end my career a few years earlier and go actually have some fun rather than keep plugging away. Yeah, no, it's goofy. I mean, Ian Boswell is a friend and neighbor here in Vermont. Um, you know, he's crushing it. He's, he's one of America's best racers, the races for Katyusha and he was chatting in there tonight on text and he's like, hey man, you're like, Gary Fisher here likes the original revolutionary putting your, your flag in this field that is gravel, which I got a complete nutter kickout of. Um, Gary Fisher is on a totally different playing field that is far supersedes where I am as I dabble in gravel. But it was a very flattering comments nonetheless. Yeah, yeah. Well, you deserve it. I think you've done a lot of great work for the sport. Very, very kind. Thank you. It'll be fun at the end of dirty Kanza to see some of your former colleagues in the pro Peloton, you know, potentially a completed an hour after you that because of having the disasters that are inevitable in your first dk. Yeah. And to kind of see how they feel because they're going to come across the line and it's not, they're going to be, I think, rewarded for having participated. Just like everybody is the first guy and the first woman to the last guy in the last woman, they're going to come and they're going to have a beer and they're going to have some barbecue or whatever waiting for them at the end of dirty Kanza. And I suspect a lot of them might realize that their reward for completing that race may surpass, you know, coming in 100th in a one day classic over in Europe. Yeah, it's a, it's a huge dichotomy. I mean, it's a tough balance because in order to achieve your best, then you, you do go long stints of certain things like oh 100% sobriety and maybe you're not drinking at all in the first place through the season. So, you know, it's hard to finish a race and say, oh, I'm going to have this massive plate of barbecue and a beer on top of that. Like road tactics are drilled into their minds. So there's certain things that they're accustomed to. One, certainly being a car behind you, which yes, they're aware that there's not going to be a car. Were you guys enough? But you know, I hope, my sincere hope is that they don't play by road tactic rules. I hope they don't have a road captain, whether it's, you know, my former colleagues are the guys who are racing on the domestic proceeds. That gravel is a leveling playing field. So everybody's dealt a certain level of block over the course of the day. If you're going to do well, you know, you have to have luck on your side. What will bother me is if luck is thrown out the window, somebody has three flat tires, but he has a teammate next to him every single time and you can go boom, boom, boom. Here's a new wheel, here's new, we'll have new wheel. So we, this, like I said, 2019 is, is the year of teams that entering gravel. Uh, there was a little bit of team tactics at play it at, uh, Atlanta, Ron. So I can't predict the future. I'm just very optimistic that gravel continues to have the, the, the friendly, wild nature that, that it always happens. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's an opportunity in course design to always kind of affect the ability for team tactics to really play a role. You obviously can't eliminate it entirely, especially in the long stretches of road in those Midwest events. But I was like, when race organizers throw you on a little single track, or if you really push the limits of both your technical handling skills and your equipment in such a way that that kind of creates this natural breakup of any, any packer Peloton that starts to emerge. Yes. Yeah, 100%. That's my, my optimism echoing that. So I guess we'll see. I'm sure everybody is a fan of the sport will be keenly looking at dirty Kanza and just seeing how it feels. You know, I'm, I'm with you. I'm supportive of everybody in anybody entering the sport, whether they're a former professional road athlete or not, uh, because the more the merrier. But, uh, I'm also with you that I love the independence and the camaraderie and I hope that never changes despite the sport and the events becoming more professionalized. Yup, exactly. Well, ted, I really appreciate the insight. It was great to hear from you. I, like I said, I really was excited because I feel like you have the perspective of both living in, riding out of, out of my home town and having raced across the country and across the world. So it was really great to get your insights. Pleasure. Yeah, it is a small cycling world, so, you know, I'm, I'm hopping all over the place and hope that we can cross paths out on the bike sometime soon. Yeah, absolutely. If not in Mill Valley, I'm, I'll be out in steamboat, so I'll make sure to peddle it together there. Oh, nice. Perfect. That sounds great.
Alison Tetrick is known as the Queen of Kanza and one of the best endurance racers in the world. We discussed everything from Dirty Kanza strategy to rebounding from traumatic accidents in the latest episode of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast. Tune in now! For more information on this episode, head over to forum.trainerroad.com/ • More training questions answered here: bit.ly/Training-Questions-Help-Center ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE ONLY PODCAST DEDICATED TO MAKING YOU A FASTER CYCLIST Each week Coach Chad Timmerman, Coach Jonathan and TrainerRoad’s CEO Nate Pearson gather to answer queries submitted from athletes around the globe, interview special guests, as well as dish about their latest training experiments, discoveries and tips. • Subscribe to the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast: www.trainerroad.com/podcast ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT TRAINERROAD — CYCLING’S MOST EFFECTIVE TRAINING SYSTEM TrainerRoad makes cyclists faster. Athletes get structured indoor workouts, science-backed training plans, and easy-to-use performance analysis tools to reach their goals • Get started today: bit.ly/Get-Faster-TrainerRoad • Download the TrainerRoad app: bit.ly/Download-TrainerRoad • Browse training plans: bit.ly/TR-Training-Plans ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FOLLOW TRAINERROAD • Facebook: www.facebook.com/TrainerRd • Instagram: www.instagram.com/TrainerRoad • Twitter: www. twitter.com/TrainerRoad • Strava Club: www.strava.com/clubs/TrainerRoad
Epiosde links. SBT GRVL website, Instagram, Facebook Automagical Transcript Below -- please forgive the typos. All right, mark, thanks for joining us on the podcast this week. I'm really excited to talk to you and learn more about your event. Yeah, thanks for having me. So we all just like starting out on The Gravel Ride, learning a little bit more about your background as a cyclist and how you got into the gravel scene. Sure, yeah, I, um, I've been riding bikes for a while. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a for context, I'm 50 so I've been, I've been endurance athlete for what I would say a 30 year window for me getting into cycling, really came from having a mountain bike in college and then moving into maybe more triathlon type background and then as I got older and, and running was starting to take its toll on me personally. I really ended up just writing a lot of bikes and so I'm like a lot of folks, I think, you know, your race, road bikes, you want to get off the road, um, uh, exploring new places you have maybe liked the speed of a road bike. So maybe I'm not a. So I started mountain biking. I really don't mountain bike a ton nowadays, um, but I really found gravel which was kinda that, that best of both worlds scenario for me and I'm really, once I started doing that, there was, there was no looking back, I still raised the road, but I think I look forward to gravel rides more than anything else so that, that sort of a, at least my, my, my entry into it. You're located in steamboat springs at this point, is that right? Yeah, I am. I spent the last couple of years in La, um, and I was road racing for the race team if you guys are familiar with, with that crew and Los Angeles and um, but moved back to steamboat this, uh, this August full time and uh, we'll probably be here for good. Nice. Well, I'm eager to learn a little bit more about the terrain you called home around steamboat for the gravel bike and I'm excited to introduce our listeners to the event you're putting on. So why don't you tell us just in broad strokes about the event you just announced. Sure. Well, for, for everybody, um, uh, it's called SBT GRVL. We're fortunate to be presented by Canyon Bikes, which is, as you guys know, is based in California. And um, we, um, we wanted to put together an event, um, I have two partners in the race, a guy named Ken banished and a woman named Amy Charity. Both, um, you know, x or racers, amy, um, was on the US national team. Kenza a former, a really elite cross racer and uh, you know, the three of us all live in steamboat and, and we were really talking really a couple of days this summer saying, Gosh, you know, there's so many great races out there, but none of them are really that close to home. I mean, for us, um, for the larger races that exist. The closest one is the crusher, which is a fantastic event, but it's still a seven hours away from steamboat. And so, um, we either have to drive, you know, The Crusher in June or go out to a BWR or some of these other, um, land run these great races, but they're all pretty far away. So we had been riding gravel in steamboat for a long time. There's this amazing combination of the High Alpine with the ski area, um, and then these endless, endless, connected, um, gravel roads that support ranching and mining and an industry in Colorado and they just saw happen to come together and steamboat. And so the three of us were saying, well, look, why don't we introduced the world to our roads. Um, and so, you know, there were some other preceding a events and great introductions to too many people have the gravel roads in steamboat one in 2016. Rafa did a prestige ride in steamboat which hit 130 miles of gravel for the most part. Um, a lot across many of the same roads that we're going to have into the three courses. Um, the moots ranch rally, which has been going on to support agriculture in, in steamboat and get people out and about has been going on for a decade. And um, you know, some of the same roads are used. And so we had some good insights from some folks from, from prior years. And we started looking at courses and we started looking at what we could accomplish and you know, we came up with this really amazing combination of exploration, uh, where we can see lots of different aspects of our community or a north in the middle and then south is steamboat. Um, and then the beauty of just Colorado. And, and uh, as we got talking more and more, we said let's do it and let's put something together. And so here we are with it with SBT GRVL. That's amazing. And you decide your team decided on three different course. What are they and what was the rationale behind that? Yeah. So the three different courses, um, you know, what, one of the things, you know, I think every race has its own thing, right? And you know, I think a lot of people would would say similar things about what certain races are, what they are or who they appeal to or, or you know, what the feel or vibe was. And, and for us, we're no different. We wanted to, our race to be inviting. We want it to be engaging. We wanted it to be certainly a challenge, but what we really wanted a lot of people to be able to participate. And so, um, we put together courses that are challenging but they're fair. We've got three distances. So if, if you're, if you're new to a gravel racing or even cycling for that matter. And I think that's really important is that we've got a 37 mile course with a couple thousand feet of climbing over rolling terrain that is about 50 slash 50 gravel and road that you can do on any bike. And we saw that as a starting point. That was really, really important. Um, I think one of our jobs, if we're going to be a successful race promoter or an advocate for cycling, I'm not just gravel cycling, but cycling is to get more and more people involved. And so, um, we wanted to have something unique where, um, you know, many gravel races, it's a, it's a gravel race. You need to potentially new gravel bike or at least, uh, you know, a mount bike to participate at any level. And for this course, we wanted to make sure that if you have access to a bicycle and you want to give it a shot, you can and you can be a part of the weekends. And so that 37 mile course, we'll start with the dea with the big group, um, but about, uh, not really, only about six miles into the race, it's going to veer off to the left and the, the other two races are going to go off and hit some more challenging stuff. But we're actually really, really excited about that. That 37 mile course I'm in the middle is what we're calling sbt gravel blue. Um, and that's a 100 mile course. It's got about 6,000 feet of climbing, um, and it mirrors the black course, which is the big one for the first 85 miles. Then it veers off. And, uh, it really cuts out the back 40 miles of the, of the dig course. Um, the way that we're describing sbt gravel blue, it's, it's the best to steamboat in 100 miles. You know, it's something that most cyclists could, um, put on their calendar and, and accomplished, um, but it's not going to wipe somebody out, um, you know, for a long period of time, you know, it's going to be a fair challenge. But, um, we think a lot of people are gonna really be interested in, in that course. Um, and then, you know, the big one, spq gravel, black, um, that's a 141 miles. It's 9,000 feet of climbing and we can get into this course a little deeper. It, um, you know, this is if you really want to see what steamboat and Routt county and the surrounding communities have to offer for cycling and you're going to see it all in, in, in one day. And so, um, uh, we, we're really, really excited about it. We think it's really challenging. Um, but we think it's really fair. Um, and we think that the diversity of the terrain and what you're going to expect there is going to be really, really, really a fun different. Um, all types of variety. And uh, you know, it's all at elevation. So it's going to be really exciting. So. So, um, yeah, we can dig into that course as much as you would like, but it's going to be a, it's going to be a great one. Yeah. One hundred and 41 miles. That seems like a big chunk of work. It's interesting. We often talk with event organizers about the profile of their rides because it really is difficult to compare one type of terrain to another. I was just down doing Peloton scrabble mob in. Oh, hi. A few weeks back and that was 8,000 feet of climbing over 60 miles. I did it last year. Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, it's so, it's so interesting to me that you can take a ride that's that much shorter in length and pack that much verdin that's similar to what we experienced here. I was just before this ride I went out for a lunch ride and I realized like, it's pretty difficult for me to do an hour around mill valley without accumulating a thousand feet of climbing. Whereas when I was on the east coast, you know, a thousand feet of climbing might be something I would get over a 60 mile ride. Right. No, totally. No, that, that's a, that's so true. I mean, the Gat gravel mob. Yeah. Going up that second section before you go into the, the really gnarly single track down hill section is, you know, you're questioning why you're still want to be out there, right? Because it, it just doesn't end right. But, um, but yeah, no, they're all different, you know, I think for our course to describe it to, to the audience and the listener, I think, um, it's, it, it, it gets a, what's the best way to put this? It's gonna wear on you. Okay. So we have a lot of climbing, you know, it's 9,000 feet of climbing, but it's not that much relatively speaking. I'm in 141 miles. Um, it's a lot but um, but it, it's spread out and then it's back heavy. So the last, um, 35 miles have about 3000 plus feet of climbing. And so I think the, the key to doing well, um, and defining well, right, whether you're racing, which, that, you know, that 10 percent of the field will be racing and 90 percent is going to be out there having a great time and just a personal accomplishment, which I think is the great thing about gravel in it in its own right. Um, but that lasts 30 miles is, is going to be tough. And so, um, we're gonna have a spg gravel sponsored gravel rides every Saturday and Sunday and steamboats starting in April. And now what we're going to be talking about with people as we dissect sections of the course, um, is that obviously pacing a nutrition are going to really important. I'm finding people that you can ride with, um, and to help you get through the day and certainly the first, um, 100 miles of the course with as much energy possible. I think going to be really important because you, um, you can and as I'm sure you've seen in the races that you've done or are your friends who have done, you can overamped in these things and get going and you know, you see, um, you know, these really fast guys up front and you say, you know what, I want to stay connected and, you know, come mile 90, you might be reconsidering. Right. Um, that whole strategy. So, um, so the lay of the land for the black is, um, you know, it, it basically goes into big circles around the north and south. The steamboat with a parallel section, the middle, that would maybe be the best way I can, I can describe it. And um, but the first 20 miles of that course though, they only have about 1500 feet of climbing, it will feel like there's a lot more. And I'm one of the roughest gravel sections, at least the way the roads were functioning this year. And they always change, you know, depending on how the winter goes. Um, but one of the roughness sections I'm coming out of the gate starts at mile seven and goes to mile 15. Um, it's called fly Gulch and um, it's got some punchy climbs. It's got some loose gravel and then it's got some silt. And so if it rains, that silt gets really mucky. If it doesn't, it gets really dusty. Um, and it causes problems. And so I think, um, there's gonna be opportunities for people to get away right away. I'm in that race, um, you know, it winds around for a little bit after that section and you hit 'em a little bit of a downhill. And then, um, we're fortunate we're going to get the racers on about four miles of private land, um, that no one ever gets to ride. I'm one of the ranchers in the community has been so generous and is offered up that a option for us. So we're gonna ride that it's going to go through his farm, it's going to go past, um, you know, in 19 forties, retired a greyhound bus. It's going to go through some really cool things and then it's going to get to really the first climbing section of the day, which is called steamboat lake. It's going to be a formal climb, um, it'll average in, you know, seven to 10 percent zone. And I think right out of the gate there, Mile Twenty five to 30, you're going to really start remembering that you're at, you know, seven thousand eight thousand feet of racing. I'm in steamboat. So, um, so that's kind of the first section of the course. Once you get to that, through that climb, you ride through some terrain, you do a long road descent, which I think a lot of people will actually appreciate when they can recover from, from, uh, really the first 35 miles will be almost exclusively on gravel. Um, and you'll get to that dissent. You'll retrace a little bit, um, and then you'll get to some really rolling ranch section. Then you'll get back into some climbing than some really fast gravel descending on, um, again, loose rocky terrain, which will, you know, make sure that you pick the right tires and the right equipment, which I think that will come into play a little bit certainly on, for this race or ride. Certainly for the descending. I don't think I'm, the tires are going to be a massive factor for riders. I'm on the flat sections or the climbing. Um, but the descending is where, um, you know, things like that are really gonna come into play. Are the writers mostly on fire roads to begin with? Yeah. Mostly, you know, and it's really, I'm not even, I wouldn't say it's defined as a fire road because you're not going up like the ski area or a big Alpine climbs, but I think it's comparative. Um, road quality to fire roads for sure. They're open gravel roads that are servicing the ranching community for the most part. So, um, vehicles can travel on those and they do, um, you might not see a car for four hours, but, but, um, that's the type of, of road. Yeah, that you would see, and then actually, once you get past this, um, this first, let's say 75 miles that I just described and the terrain shifts because you, you actually do then get out into more of an alpine environment again. Um, you go up a big climb at about mile 90, which is where I think the race is really going to separate, um, it's called Trout Creek. It's going to be about a nine mile climb. Um, it's gradual the first five or six miles and then it gets quite steep the last three and then you have this long sweeping 10 mile descent on fire road, exact description, but with really loose sections and some washboards depending on how, how the the summer goes. And so again, you're going to be tired. You're going to be four or five, six, seven hours into it by then and um, you know, then you're going to really be making, um, decisions on just how you get through that last 40 miles. So, um, so yeah, that's sort of a description of the first hundred, the last 40 miles of that steamboat gravel black. Um, the best way to describe it is that you're just going to get punched in the mouth. Um, by six or seven, one, two, two mile climbs, they're all going to be six to 10 percent. Um, some will be on the road, some will be on gravel. I'm at mile one slash 28. There's a climb called the corkscrew that's about one mile average, about 11 percent, which is going to be tough. Uh, you get outta there. You do two more clients and then need to send back into steamboat. So like I said, it's um, it's going to be challenging towards the end. Um, the, the, the riders that really have done well on nutrition and pacing, um, are going to do great. Um, everybody's going to have a great time, but it, um, it'll wear on you at the end. It sounds like it. I bet a number of my listeners are licking their lips saying this sounds awesome. And another banter shaking in their boots right now. Yeah, I think for those that are those guys that like a big challenge above climbing, they like, I'm back heavy courses, they're going to absolutely love racing it. Um, but I do think that everyone hopefully listening saying, wow, I'm going to get to see an incredible amount of steamboat and the terrain around there. It's all kinds of varied options. Um, you know, you're going to see Sam silt, rocky glass, fire roads, you know, as perfect as you can possibly get where you can make up some time or at least recover and eat and take care of yourself. And I'm the one thing that I think that we can really agree on, at least the of the steamboat residents. It's just going to be beautiful. Um, it's going to be really well supported. We're going to have the course heavily marked. Um, you're not going to get lost. You're going to have all the things that you need to get you through the day and, um, we're going to have a ton of volunteers out there. So, um, I, I think from that aspect it's going to be really, really fun. And, you know, the rider is going to be able to focus on writing, um, they're not going to have to worry about, um, a lot of those things that caused me stress. I know I always really get worried about making a wrong turn, you know, I just don't, I don't want to burn those attention units on that. Um, and we're going to do our best to make sure that doesn't happen. Everyone will have the gps of course, but um, we'll have it well marked. Um, you, we will have a ton of nutrition. You know, Google is going to be a partner for us. Um, we'll have maverick oncourse with neutral and um, and uh, it's going to be really, really fun. Now that the course distance, I've spoken about this on a number of occasions as well. It seems like you've got one camp of race organizers that are sort of tending towards this ultra distance type racing, which 140 miles I think we'd categorize there. And then the other side of it, it's a shorter, the shorter, faster races. Were there some races or types of races that you were modeling this around and said you're yourself, you know, five years from now we'd like people to be thinking of us in the category of this type of race? Yeah, yeah. Maybe I think, I think, as I said, maybe earlier that each of the races that, that we really liked doing. And I mean my, you know, my partner amy came in sixth dirty Kanza, um, this summer. My partner Ken was, I think 11th at the crusher. Um, you know, we all love dwr and are going to all race that, um, this, this spring. Um, and really love what Michael is doing there. So I think we were maybe inspired by all of those races. Just the ones that we do. The gravel mob was, was fantastic. I really had fun with that. Um, as an example. And honestly I think for us it was, we wanted something that was challenging. We didn't want something necessarily that people. I'm just bucket listed. Maybe we're, wow, I'm going to do that once and I'm never coming back. You know, we, and, and maybe some people will think that for sure, but, but we, we were more interested in having a variety of options for the racer and then maybe even, I think hopefully seeing some people say, well, this year I did a 37 mile course, next year I'll do the 100 and, and they have this big aspiration for the SBT gravel, black. But, um, I think, I think all the races are so different and their terrain so different. I think that's what makes them great. And they have these different profiles. Um, you know, if you talked with Michael Marks, he doesn't even like to have his race called a gravel race, right. You know, it's a spring classic. Um, and so, um, I think we, we tried to look at, um, the type of race that may be the three of us would want to do, right, well, you know, do we want to have our own navigation or do we want to have people telling us where to go? We all said we'd like to take that out of the equation. Right. Tell us where to go. Right. So, um, you know, do we want to have a bunch of people supporting us or not? Right. And, you know, we made a decision that we would like to, to have at least most of what you would need available oncourse and um, that's great. And you know, everybody has different versions of that. So, um, I think that the real delineation for us is that we really wanted us back in the racer, um, whether you're racing for prize money, which, you know, a lot of people have have debated if prize money should be a part of the gravel community. Um, you know, we see both sides, but we're looking at it. I'm not in changing gravel or changing the dynamic, which, you know, maybe it will do, maybe it won't, I don't, we'll have to see when our race goes, but, but we're looking at that more as investing back in eraser. We want people that are looking at doing this for a living or doing this as a, as a really, um, significant hobby, um, to potentially be rewarded for that. And so, um, you know, that was in, that was a decision that we had to make, you know what I mean. So I think for us, I'm investing back in the racer introducing people to the beauty of, of the region and then having a really strong option for people to race in the rocky mountains that had something for everybody. But those were probably, um, you know, the big motivators and you know, we'll see, you know, registration opens next week and we'll hope that a bunch of people want to want to be a part of it. And um, you know, we hope that we can come through as organizers and have a great experience for them. Yeah. I liked one of the things you said earlier, which was just you and your partner is just wanted to showcase how great a gravel riding destination steamboat is. And I think with, with that or would that origin the course is going to speak volumes, right? Because you guys live there. These are the roads do you are choosing to share with your community, which should be really excited citing for anybody from out of town to come in and participate in. Yeah, totally. And I think it's, it's really gonna be fun. I think this spring, um, you know, we hope and, and uh, are really anticipating a bunch of people once they register and are planning their calendar and how they're going to train and all of that. Um, to come and visit, you know, steamboat once or twice, you know, for, as you said, this is a, it's a long race if you're going to do the, the, the black horse and um, you know, I know for sure back to any race I've ever done. If I have familiarity with the course, I've just so much more confidence. Right? And how my day's going to go and how I plan, how I manage. And so we're hoping that on these weekends, spt gravel sponsored rides, that's a lot of people will come up, whether they're, you know, just from the front range of Denver, Boulder, um, they drive over from Salt Lake or, or they make a weekend or a week of training out of it. Um, the beauty of it is that you can get to any part of this course from downtown steamboat in about an hour and a half ride time, you know, so you can bite off, for example, if you want to come for three days and, and hit the three primary sections of spt, grab a black. You can do 3:50 mile rides from steamboat and see it all and, you know, not totally wipe yourself out, right? A couple of sections multiple times. Really get an understanding of, you know, maybe where you'll be at this point in your day and how to plan for it. And, you know, we'll have a bunch of support for those rides. I'm Amy Ken and I will be on them every weekend. Um, I think, I think for us, we think that's really, really important that, you know, the, the organizers, um, understand what's going on with the race and the course. And so, um, we're excited to have a bunch of people visit, show them around and go have a beer, have dinner with them, talk about the course and talk about steamboat. I, we, we, um, in every sense of the word. I think we want this to be an ambassador type event for our community and um, you know, really bring, um, this aspect of it. Speaking of which, what else should we expect during the weekend if we come to steamboat? Yeah, no, great question. We have a lot planned and we're racing on Sunday. Um, and that was really on purpose. We wanted people to be able to come to steamboat with their families. We didn't want to. Maybe this is the road racer in me personally, but I didn't want to have people show up late Friday, you know, get up, get your race number it on, do your race Saturday morning and go home, which is, you know, the majority of the road races I've ever done personally have gone that way. And um, we wanted people to have the ability to bring their families or bring their friends, race with their friends, um, and enjoy the weekend because there is so much to do for your family member, your spouse, your significant other, your kids in steamboat in the middle of August. It's just amazing. It's an amazing time to be, to be in this part of the country. And so, um, we've got all these things. You know, the steamboat is famous for its hot springs. It's famous for its ski area. I'm hiking, fishing, mountain biking. We're going to have an expo on Saturday. We're going to have a group ride Saturday morning, um, before that. Um, but the expo and registration or check in for the race is going to be held in conjunction with the steamboat farmer's markets. So you're going to have 150, um, food and, and other types of vendors. I'm part of our race expo where all of our sponsors and other folks that want to hang out with us and ride bikes and talk about their products and businesses are going to be, um, we're going to have, um, a symposium on a variety of topics, uh, sponsored by some folks. You know, one of the things that, um, you know, aspirationally we have is, is the parody angle of, of cycling in general. Um, and so with our race, you know, we have big goals. I'm certainly of having 50 slash 50 participation men and women. Um, we're certainly having a with our prize purses, you know, we're paying five deep to the men's and women's pro field, equal prize money. Um, we think that's really, really important. So think we're going to have some partners talking about women in sport, women in cycling. There's some other topics that are really, um, important to us that we may get to, talking to around potentially a Tbi, mental health, things of that nature. Um, at this symposium. And then certainly having a lot of our elite athletes hopefully be interviewed and, and be able to engage and talk with some of the other racers. So we'll have that all going on on Saturday. And then Sunday 6:30 sharp, we'll get off and race and you know, hopefully last finisher will come in around 9:00 PM. We'll um, we'll have a great support for people all weekend and they want to keep making it an annual thing. That's, that's really, um, at the end of the day, that's the goal is to have people come with their families and, and have a great time and then maybe come back even in the winter and now we're even linking up some winter ski benefits for all the racers that they enter. So it, uh, it's a, it's a big, it's a big a rallying cry for our community. But I think people are going to have a great time. That's great. You touched on it a little bit earlier in passing, but just just to nail it home from an equipment perspective on the black roots, you, you've mentioned sort of on some of the descents that was going to be where tire choice may come into play versus on the climbs you might be able to get away with something fairly narrow. Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I absolutely, and we say this on our website and our race or guide right now. I mean, you could get through this course on a bwr style with a, you know, a robot in 28. Um, I think it'd be very challenging to win. I'm a, or get through it as fast versus being on a road bike, you know, um, our race, it's 140, one miles, 125 of those are on grass, you know, Michael's race, which is amazing, but it's 100 miles on the road, you know, and so his, his race is certainly way more complicated from an equipment standpoint. You know, it's, I mean, I, I, I bet you, I think about his tire choice for his race most days, right? Because I just don't, there's so many different, different options and um, but for our race, you know, I think, you know, what we're recommending is, is um, you know, panel racers sponsor, so we, we think that, you know, the gravel king that they have in a 38 or the gravel King Ski, a 35 are, are probably the best ways to go, but that with, regardless of the brand that you, you know, you select, do you want a ride? Um, we think is probably right. Um, you know, there are some pretty rough desense, um, there's some really fast corners where, you know, that that sk or a Knob I'm a or tread pattern is going to really help you around those corners. Um, you know, it, it's just going to be, I think important and especially if it gets washboard, which we've seen. So, um, and there are some pretty long descents on, on gravel, so, so that's sort of the thinking there. Yeah. It's always an interesting conundrum going into a new event, trying to figure out what tire is optimized for the course that sits in front of me. Yeah. And we, you know, all of my partners and I, everyone in steamboat that rides a lot of gravel has written all these roads. I'm on 28. Um, I can tell you all of the Klms and all of the KLM is on defense and fastest times today have been on gravel tires and those are just going same exact rider, same fitness. I'm against the road bike with 28. So, um, so I, that would be our recommendation for sure. But um, you know, we'll see every, it's always interesting to see what people show up with and um, you know, the, the only thing that we're saying that, um, we, we really aren't going to want his arrow bars because there's just so much time on, on a, a mountain up and down. Um, and, and you're going to need your breaks a lot. And Man, I hope if you show up on a road bike, at least have disc brakes. That's really cool. Really. It's not mandatory, but, but man, it would be highly recommended. Well, this is a lot of great information, mark. I appreciate you joining us on the show. I think it's a great adventure. The website. Super Informative and I'll post a note to that in the show notes so everybody can go check it out. And remind me again what the url is and when the exact date of entries open up. Yeah, the url you can find us@sbtgravel.com. And a registration for general entry opens December fourth, but if you go to sbt gravel.com before the weekend, um, you can guarantee entry and get 20 percent off by opting into our email. So we're going to send, um, a, an entry code basically out, um, for everyone to get in. And then that registration for people with code is going to be actually on Monday, 7:00 AM mountain time, December third. So, um, we, we, uh, we have no idea on how fast the race has kind of fill up, but we have had a lot of interests. So we hope that people take advantage of, um, you know, the discount and get guaranteed under the race on December third. Great. And once we've got our entry, are there some social channels that we should follow to get a little sneak peeks of the course and some of the training rides if we're not local to Colorado? Yeah, absolutely. I mean we've got everything is at SBT GRVL for twitter, facebook, instagram and youtube. And um, there's actually a couple of really good videos out on the course already. Um, uh, Jason O from Gravel cyclists was out and did a really cool review of the course. He was able to prewrite it and so he put a video up on gravel cyclists.com. That's pretty cool. And um, we've got, uh, and we'll have a full analysis of every section of the course monthly, um, on our sbt gravel youtube channel. So, um, I would highly recommend checking those out. They're going to be anywhere from two to three minutes, you know, nothing too big from a time commitment standpoint, but we'll really dive into going through that course section. Talk about really what you should be thinking when you're in that section where you might be in a proximity to aid stations, the sense other support and things of that nature. So we'll really dissect the course, I think, um, some other races have done a great job. Leadville with their podcast talks about sections and we really thought that was a good idea. So we'll add some video elements to that, but it should be pretty cool. That's great. I think sharing all that information will be awesome for anybody preparing for the event. So mark, thanks again. I'll let you go. You have a good evening and you know, we look forward to talking to you again soon. No, thanks a lot. I really appreciate you having me on.
Episode Links: Wolf Tooth Components Wolf Tooth Components Instagram Otso Bikes Otso Bikes Instagram Automatic Transcription (forgive any errors): All right, Brendan, thanks for joining us on the podcast this week. I'm really excited to get to know wolf tooth and also a little bit better today. Yeah, thanks for having me. I always like starting out by learning a little bit more about you as a writer and since you're a, a, an owner of a company, I'd love to learn just a little bit more about how the company started. Yeah, well I guess I'll talk about the three of us that started together. Um, Mike is the original founder and Dan and I joined him, uh, about a month or two after he started at Mike's. Been racing 20 or 25 years in cross country avid mountain bike, rabid sat biker Dan, my other business partner is a more of a distance guy. He'd done. I did a bike or I did a rod, I guess he's done the arrowhead 1:35 half a dozen times during the Baja divide, you know, just all kinds of crazy long distance stuff. And then, um, I come from an SCC race background erased ECC pro level, like c for about 10 or 12 years and still dabble in some racing, but, uh, given the business and growing children, I haven't been doing quite as much as they used to. So, so we kind of come from a bit of a diverse set of, uh, a writing background, um, which brings a lot to the table when we start talking about out. So yeah, absolutely. And did you guys have an engineering background professionally? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we all came from the tech world, um, engineers and tech. Mike and I worked in a automation engineering department, so we basically designed robots that built a hard disk drives and then Dan was on the design side of the hard disk drive, so designing the intricate details of a hard disk drive and all the mechanical features. So we all worked together doing this and um, had a passion for riding road at lunch together, that kind of thing. And always talked about bike parts and maybe deficiencies in some and things we liked and didn't like. And um, and that's where the passion started and then an opportunity came to give this a go and we jumped at it. What was the problem that you guys saw initially? What was the first product? The very first product was actually a chain ring, a wide narrow chain ring for a fat bike, um, because we here in Minnesota, we're forced to ride bikes four or five months a year. And so mike design that up and I started testing it and it's about the same time that [inaudible] came out and we really felt that one by was a key, um, technology for fat bikes because front railers tended to not work with snow and ice. And so that was the first product. And then what actions actually the biggest product for the company that Kinda really got us off ground was those cassette extenders. And um, back when people were just starting to go one by and adding the 42 to two, their 10 speed. And uh, you know, at this point we basically don't sell any of those anymore. The oems have largely answered that large wide range cassette question. But uh, so those are the two kind of first products that got us off the ground while we were still working our day jobs, packet packet, ca technology hard this rep company. And was that derailleur extension piece, was that something that originally was solving a problem that you were seeing in the fat bike world specifically or, or any one by setup? Well, so there was the cassette extender, so it's actually a cassette cog that went behind the cassette was the first product later we did follow up with a, a derailleur extension piece to help help that work better. Um, but that was just a cassette piece that honestly it was pretty ubiquitous no matter where you lived in the mountains or you lived in the flat, he lived in the flat so you could just run a bigger chain ring. And at the time, remember the cassettes were only 1136 was the biggest right now, you know, now we're talking 10:50 AM, 10:51 in the case of Shimano new 12 speed. Uh, the 1136 sounds absolutely teeny, like a road or gravel or something. I think that's absolutely where I first came to become aware of, uh, was in that I was running my niner gravel bike and I always needed more gears and someone came up to me and said, you know, you don't have to change the derailleur, you can just get this little part by this company in Minnesota and it can solve all your problems. Yeah. All the problems. Maybe not the problems with my lack of horsepower at times, but you youth it not me a man. Well that's great. That's a really interesting origin story. And then presumably as you guys acquired more equipment and sophomore or opportunity, you just sort of let your engineering minds grow wild. And I've seen you kind of pick a lot of problem opportunities across the cycling space to tackle with your unique componentry. Yeah. Yeah. So we, uh, from the beginning we had a lot more ideas than those are just the two products that kind of allowed us to launch the company. But very quickly just knowing that oems are going to make wide range cassettes, which they do now today. And knowing that there's going to be other challenges, we'd with a derailleur optimization, all that stuff. We quickly moved into the things that like our be Rad system and some of these more innovative standalone products that aren't tied to necessarily somebody cassette or somebody is derailleur. Um, so that's something we did very early on with foresight to all products have a finite life when we need to go specifically probably only had three to four year run rate. So. Right. Yeah. What a step back. I definitely want to get into the be rad system. But with respects to gearing for gravel riding, you'd mentioned sort of your excitement, enthusiasm behind. No one by trend. Do you see that continuing across kind of all segments of cycling or GC, the roadies still retaining to buy as you know, the predominant option? It's an interesting and kind of polarizing question on the road. Um, I think it's less, less so on a gravel and then not at all in the mountains. The mountains by rights all switched to one by. I know there's some still some holdouts, and I'm not saying everybody has to go one bike because it gives people, some people pretty worked up, but uh, and then on gravel, honestly having a little, a little wider range cassette, I think you've found it extremely useful. Um, you know, you end up with these little corn cob cassettes, I call him like 11, 25, you end up with double shifts anyway. Most of the time on gravel road is going to be a bit more of a challenge and you know, just just a frame road for a second. The number of usable actual years on a double. A typical double setup is about 14. So you know, where we're at right now, we're at 12 speed right now. Right, right. And so you could see a way to 13 speed in the near future, I'm guessing on the road. Um, and so if you got the 13 speed, could you fudge those bigger three cars and not upset roadies and have small enough jumps in the small causes? Maybe that's what it's going to take though. Yeah, I think you're right. I, I, I struggled a bit, so I've bought my last spike two years ago and I had made the decision that I was going to buy one bike that was gonna replace my road bike and gravel bike and all the research I pointed to lead me to believe yeah, there were some nuances that I would lose and going to a one by. And so I elected to go to a two by simply because I was trying to purely replaced my road bike and I've largely been happy with it. But one of the things that I have come to realize that know, which is probably obvious in retrospect was that the one by a drive train off road is just so much quieter without, uh, you know, the longer chain and the front trailer on there that there's, to me a real advantage there and any disadvantage I was perceiving or loss of, you know, gear subtlety really hasn't manifested itself in the way I feared it would. No, you got to remember though, there is really high level road racing and there's the time where it can get annoying. Basically if you're in a group road ride and you know, the, the um, the speed is changing subtly and you want to shift, just barely shifted gear to keep your cadence at a certain level or people that have spent years and years on road bikes and expecting that one tooth cog difference, that those are the people that'll be the last hold outs and honestly it'll take 14 speed's probably to convert them. And uh, do you still have a road bike in your garage? Not the kind with skinny tires. The skinny tires I have on right now are $38, I think 38 because honestly with, with cell phones, um, I avoid at all costs that a personal impact. All of us, pretty much everybody on staff here does. I don't. There's maybe one or two guys that do group road rides anymore. Yeah. But even then, like this time of year, they're, the group road rides shifts to gravel. Um, I was just out this weekend, this out this weekend for a cruise in several hours. I saw four cars unraveled and that was, it was bliss. It was blissful. Every time, every time I'm on the road, it's like, you know, white knuckles is, are they on their phone, are they drinking their coffee or you know, whatever. And uh, just not the fun relaxing experience I want when I'm out riding my bike. Yeah. I'm always saying the same thing to my roadie hold out friends that they just don't know what they're missing. When you can get out there and get off the beaten path and not have to worry about cars at all. And you can just have pure peace during your rides. Yeah. Yeah. You've come out and just like totally refreshed. Maybe. Maybe you're tired, but totally refreshed mentally and, and happy. I don't know how else to describe it. I, I'll feel after her gravel. Right. But just, just content and happy. Yeah, I agree. I think it just, it plays on a number of different lover, the levers emotionally. When you're out there riding, you get the peace and solitude, but then you also get challenging sections where you felt glom onto something a little bit more tactical on your gravel bike and get your heart rate up. Yeah. Yup. So it'll be, you know, if we get to 13 or 14 speeds, I think one by will make huge inroads into road and probably completely take over gravel. Yeah, I think you're right. And then certainly on my next bike, which is upcoming and I'm definitely going to go the one by route and um, you know, any shortcomings, I spent so much time off road that they've road shortcomings aren't going to bother me whatsoever. Right. And the interesting thing thing on the side that we've seen with, with gravel and road is that, um, it used to be all a lot of the chain rings we sold in the gravel and road segments square, 40 to 40, 38 meaning cyclocross racers and writers and now we're seeing a shift to a lot of $46 going out the door, which is kind of that sweet spot for the one by gravel with a wide range cassette or one by road with a wide range. So we are actually seeing it on the chain ring side too. What type of cassette gear ratio or people matching to that? 40 six? Um, typically it'd be 1140 Shimano cassettes are and that's our favorite, that's what we all run. They have nice, small, not small for roadies again, but smallish your steps, I'm relatively inexpensive cassettes, they're easy to get if it on hd driver. Um, so that's the most common one that we're seeing. And what derailer systems does that put you into? Well, for one by you can basically get any derailer to work if you're using our thriller optimization products, um, the road linker to go link or some of the trailers work natively with you had the 10 pan which allows road shifters to work with mountain bike rider railers, but basically the 1140 isn't too challenging to get to work from a one by perspective once the 1142 is a little more 10:42, and then once you get to 1146 you're really pretty much stuck with you than a mountain bike reader. Railer and your road shifters. Um, or in Graham's case, Ram actually has a, some wide range of solutions that work with that out of the box. So. Right. Interesting. Well, shifting gears a little bit, let's talk about the [inaudible] system. I mentioned in my initial outreach to you. I had my first multiday bike packing experience and I recognize the shortcoming in my bottle setup, so I was interested to talk to you about the Rad and where that came from. Oh boy. I don't know if I. I should let this out of the bag, but so be routed. Actually it stands for bottle, a relocation and accessory device, but the initial design for the very first came out of Iraq and scientists know Joe guy that works at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory a. He happens to be my brother. Brad. Going to be Rad. Came from ice. No joke. He made he uh, yeah, he was A. Yeah, I don't think we've ever told this story. He was trying to move his bottle around a little bit on trying to remember. I think it was his ibis, maybe a Mojo. Um, anyway, he came up with this little kind of looks like the two that we sell today. We sell three different signaling for people that don't know, three different bases. Is that allow you to mount things on your bike and move bottles around you have to go to the website to see how it all works. But he designed the smallest base, smallest of the three to be read to kind of. And it was actually, um, you know, something that I had seen and then one of my employees and uh, the guy that runs a machine shop unbeknownst to us and without asking, just went off and made a couple and I saw that and actually we had been working on some other, the double bottle thing where you can mount the two bottles side by side, which is some people laugh at. But uh, those that have tried it, no, it's pretty sweet. Um, if you need to throw more water, we'd had some prototypes around that, but that didn't really become a product until I saw the Rad. And I'm like, you know, the double bottles of product if it's an accessory to another system. And so we kind of put that together and started developing the different length basis. Um, and then launched with this system with the three bases I'm mounting plate with a strap, then those bases and the double bottle. And so what this allowed you to do is mountain bottles up and down and move bottles around, knocked two bottles on mount these straps that held things on your bike and it really allowed gravel and adventure riders and even at cross country racers to too, I'd extend, gets stuff off their back and so, and then it's just grown from there and I'll go on there and there's, I think a 10 or 12 accessories you can buy for the system all based on these, these three bases that you can mount on your bike. Right. So that's how it started. It was, it was kind of an accident, um, and kind of something that we didn't prove the guy that was working on to work on, but we didn't stop them either. Right. And then you found out it started working in and opening up some new possibilities. Yeah, it was more like, hey, we had this other stuff that, oh yeah, if we took this and this together, it becomes a system and then, and then now here we are today. Yeah, for those of you trying to visualize it, so you've got a base that mounts into your existing water bottle, water bottle, cage area, and then you can adjust where you attach your water bottle cage or accessory to a different area of your top two or sorry, happier. You're down tube. Um, which provides with the accessory mounts a unique way of adding multiple water bottle cages or pumping tube strap. A whole bunch of other accessories. Yeah, yeah. The best way to go to the site and look at it, look at it because there's so many different ways. It's always kind of described it as the erector set of a bicycle accessory mounting because there's going to have tinkered with it for hours in my basement. Moving stuff around, especially with the bags and stuff we have now. And you can really hang in, jam a lot of stuff on your bike. And basically at this point I'm writing most of the time with just a cell phone in my pocket, right? Yeah. And my bike packing setup, I had a sort of a quarter frame bag and I just needed the bottle cages to be exterior to that. And I looked at the two water bottle mountain. I was like, that would have been perfect because they were just set the bottles outside of that bag and solved a big issue for me. Yup, Yup. Yeah. We have a number of people doing that exact setup you just described. So you guys were working in the machine shop, you were making accessories and the derailer optimization stuff and later that'd be Rad. But recently, and I'm not sure how recently you started your own bike brand. How did that happen? Come about. Yeah. Yeah. So once again, we ride fat bikes four or five months a year. That's how it started. We started selling bikes about two years ago, I guess last month, two years ago in September. Um, so also is not that old. Um, for those that don't know a. So is a, it's a bite than our, I guess our slogan is born in the north woods. We try and build bikes around what, what the kind of writing one might do in the northwoods, whether that be northwoods of, of California, northwoods, Minnesota. I'm not, I'll call it not shredding bikes if, if that's a term that people know. I'm not downhill, not enduro. Um, these are more general cross country and gravel adventure bike. Uh, anyway, we, we ride fat bikes a lot here. Obviously. I've said that several times and I'm one of the big buggers that fat bikes is the q factors really wide. I'm on the order of like an inch wider than a mountain bike and more than an inch wider than a road bike. And so, um, that really it can be hard on knees and hips if you spend a lot of time peddling the summer and then switched to this thing where your feet are way out. It puts a lot of strain on the inside of your knees. Um, and so we've been kicking around the idea. We'd seen some prototypes with people kicking around. The idea of using what was a, a and I guess still is a downhill standard. So that'd be um, in common terms. And 83 millimeter bottom bracket. I'm a road, it would be 68 millimeters a mountain would be 73 and this was 83. And then a fat bikes for 100. So you can see a kind of the step 73 would be typical mountain in 83 is what we retargeting and we'd seen some prototypes and we're like, you know what, I think we think we can do this. And so I'm one of the enablers. They're doing it though was one by you can't do an 83 millimeter bottom bracket that bike, like we do our vojtech without committing to one by because everything's competing for the same space down there. So once we committed to one by which we were comfortable with because there are know we were both to to, to do, um, once we committed to one, by then it was a matter of doing the layouts and understanding the engineering. And then I'm working with a frame manufacturer there was willing to explore with us because there was challenges in the layup, you know, getting the chain stay right where it kind of goes between the crank arm and the chain ring gets pretty narrow. And so, uh, anyway, one thing led to another and I guess took about 20 months from when we started. Mike might had business partner started to cad to when we launched. And then um, when we launched, we also, we ride a lot of gravel. I mentioned that too. And uh, the opportunity arose to do a production made in Taiwan, um, but production stainless steel bike and which has some unique properties that we appreciate around here, namely corrosion resistance. And so we pursued that as well because we had, as part of the fat bike, develop this rear dropouts system that allowed you to move the rear wheel around for different types of snow or different kinds of conditions. Some are writing, I'm shortening or lengthening the chain stays. Which law on the roadside lends itself to something like cyclocross geometry all the way through road touring geometry. By moving the rear wheel further away from the bottom bracket or closer to it. So we took that same technology, the same dropout, and put it on a stainless steel road bike so we can launch the company with both bikes, um, at the same time. So that was about two years ago. And then subsequently you've added a third bike in the gravel category, is that right? Yup. Yup. So in the most recent ad, um, we kind of, we tried to get it out last spring, but we missed it and because we were getting left few last things right, but there's new one really, uh, the word hasn't gotten out on it yet, but it's got some really interesting features that I think you're going to start to see in almost all gravel bikes. Um, first one is, it's built on a 420 millimeter exela crown. So that's how tall the fork is, if you will. So from the axle to you, the headset, um, traditional gravel cx, even road to a large extent is much smaller than that. Gravel cx. Excellent. The crown is usually around 400 millimeters. Um, ours is 420 and you might ask why a core 20? Well, it's not what you think exactly really because yeah, it's not that it's actually because the roads this road suspension forks, the MRP, um, the Fox and even the [inaudible] which is a strong spring forth, um, those all operate on a little higher exhale to crown. And so when you just plot those on, a normal bike is built around 400, it kind of prompts the bike up and changes the geometry and there's really no compromise to do in 420 x or the crown 400 is just kind of a legacy thing that just carried through. So we took a fresh look at it. So why are we doing $400 when and you need 420 to make these suspension forks have travel so they don't hit on the front wheel. So, so 420 x with the crown is one interesting feature. Has internal dropper routing maybe will become a thing. It's becoming more popular and drop our bikes. It's not going to be for everybody. Um, and then 29 by two point one tire clearance, um, that might sound like a lot, but you know, you go out and some of these back country roads up in the mountains and at 29 by two point one tire is not too much tire. Now it gives you a ton of versatility is gone that wide. It does, it does. But then, then you get the, the people argue, well that raise the bottom bracket too much and I'm like, trust me in situations where you need a tire that why'd you want to hire bottom bracket? You don't want, you don't want your pedal and inches from the ground. Um, and so that's going to be, that is the only bike out there that both that and the water can actually sit 29 by two point one tires. So those key features were engineered in and those aren't on most sites today. The other thing that we did with where he lives, we did a longer reach. The reason we did a longer reach, it's not to be longer, slacker, lower like all the enduro bikes. It's actually one of the reasons is just to get the size, the geometry between the small and medium and large and exhale to be the same. So typically what you do on a small frame is you slacking the head tube a bit to make the, a toll her lap, not so bad on a small frame. So if you're stopped, you know, hit your front, you hit your toe on the front wheel. Um, it also creates a more stable handling bike across the board. That is the reason the enduro bikes are doing it because you get a more stable handling bike with a little shorter stem. But the front wheels further out, I think the count most common geometric term anymore as long front center, I'm talking about long front centers and long rear centers. But what that means is that the steer tube is just pushed a little further forward away from the seat from the seat post. Um, so you run a little shorter stem, but that gets the front wheel out there a little further, which makes her more stable handling, which on all road gravel, whatever you want to call it, adventure road is, is actually a good thing in a, in a, in a nutshell that you took a relook. We took a relook at everything that had been kind of leveraged that road and cyclocross that has driven what gravel is today and said most of that's right, but there are some things that we think should be a little different. Yeah, it certainly feels like a very forward thinking bike and one of the areas where the several areas of things that you, you mentioned that have been hotly debated by previous guests on my podcast, specifically suspension in gravel bikes and drop receipt perse. So I'm interested to drill into your thoughts on suspension for gravel bikes because I think that's a bold positioning. Obviously you do have a rigid for that this bike is available with, but giving a couple of different suspension options I think is a bold choice. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Yeah, the dropper posts thing, um, you know, I don't know for art types of gravel riding, we don't use those. I've been in situations on my mountain bike where I've been on gravel roads in the mountains. Again, for example, where a dropper posts would have been useful. There's no doubt if I would have been on a drop bar, bike out wanted one. Um, the challenge with dropper posts is durability. I'm the 27 two so far I haven't had the best record because you're smashing kind of the same internals and other smaller tube. Yep. And so, so that's been a challenge on the dropper side. It is a thing though, there's a lot of people doing it and there are people that say it's necessary and useful. Um, so that's why it's in our bike. Um, and having that, having that option doesn't hurt anything. I mean I can understand the debate about maybe wanting it or not wanting it, but having it as a feature should provides no detriment. Yeah. It's certainly terrain specific. I know, again, who have heard me talk about dropper posts, I'm sold. I don't have one yet, but I do believe in in my. My area of riding here in Marin County, I could definitely use it. Yeah, you definitely can. No doubt about descending download, whatever, and similarly I do believe that suspension will hold a place in some gravel writers future. Again, depending on your terrain, I understand if your idea of gravel riding or mixed terrain is just kind of light fire roads, but if you get into some serious terrain, just like on a mountain bike, the full front suspension fork is going to allow you to go faster and likely more safely. Yeah. I think honestly, as silly as this sounds, the thing that's going to drive suspension into gravel is going to be a good looking for work afford like an inverted arm. Think about like a cut down rs one. Like if you saw it at nine or dual suspension, gravel bike, they did something like that cut down rs one that looks kind of normal on a drop our bike. I honestly, I honestly think that's one of the biggest holdups because we had the Fox on there and we had it set up with um, one by, with Shimano and the left shift or was set up as a remote lockout. It was sweet. Yeah. Had everything you needed at your fingertips. I mean like you could lock it out as completely rigid breaking bumps coming. You flipped the left shift there, but it still look like a mountain bike park. It functions, it functions great. It does everything great other than it looks like a mountain bike parking. That's a hurdle that I'm not sure the general gravel crowd is willing to give up yet. Yeah, it's been a theme that's come up on the last couple of podcasts and I totally agree with you. I think the gravel market tends to draw its biggest base from roadies and roadies came with a very specific aesthetic in their mind and uh, even it's going to take awhile. I think once the performance attributes of suspension forks and dropper posts, and maybe the aesthetics, as you mentioned on the suspension side, come around, there's really going to be no reason not to have them on your bike. Yeah, I mean if, if, if it looks, if it's a 40 millimeter micro suspension that looks mostly like a fork and you're not a weight weaning, um, it would be faster even even in some races where you're mostly gravel, maybe a 30 Kanza for example. I'm guessing over the long, long haul, a lot of writers will be faster if they're more comfortable. Yeah. Pedaling those forks, those forks don't move there too and they're tuned the right way. They won't move when you're seated pedaling. Um, and then you flick a switch, hopefully a left lever or some kind of lever when you stand up and it's rigid. Yeah. Um, so we're just not there yet. But the, the point of the bike was we had to get the bike geometry there because when that comes out is not going to be a 400 accidents crown. That's going to be 4:20 and 4:30, whatever it wants to be, but yeah, I think it's going to be a part, uh, involve writers coming to the conclusion that gravel is actually their primary use of a bike, not as secondary use in addition to their road bike or mountain bike. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think that will be a. If they want to have one bike, having the suspension on there and the extra weight will be a difficult one for them to overcome. Now that said, nothing to say. I mean on the Vojtech we'd put a suspension fork on there in the summer and we rided rigid and fat in the winter. Nothing to say you can have a rigid fork and a suspension for kind of gravel bike too. Yeah. Are you seeing any of the oem fork manufacturers kind of a approach the market and the way you've described. I know the Lao fork in it of itself just a little bit of a different beast, but is, is fairly lightweight as it is, but with Fox and some of the other fork manufacturers are people looking at gravel and, and thinking about 20, 19, 20, 20 with some more gravel specific suspension. I gotta think they are, but I can't want, I can't comment to the, you know, being an oem customer on what, what's coming, but um, I hope so. I mean, I think it's a market that's ripe for that. Um, I just don't know when that's gonna happen. Yeah. It's probably a one more than an f at this point. Given the current trends around gravel bikes. Yeah. I mean you'll know about probably six months before because you'll see teaser images on instagram or something like that. Yeah. And going back to the dropper post comments, actually no. You make a couple of cool nifty adapters for drop bar graph, a dropper post activation. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. We have a remote lever that's really a successful mountain bike product for wolf too, but we also make one that mounts on the, um, the road bike up by the, uh, the, that, the, uh, the stem and um, and allows you to activate your dropper post. We are, we didn't tie something back, uh, about, I guess it was last winter bikes, enl support 10 or 15 months ago. Um, there was a bar end dropper post activation and you might see that come to production here real soon. Okay. Well you'll definitely have to keep us posted on that. I'm keen to see that kind of stuff. As the said, they'll, they'll soon be a dropper posts in my future. Yeah, we played when and then when we showed that it got teased on, it was on bike rumor and then there's all kinds of like, oh, that's the worst place. So that's the best place in like we've played with and I've seen where others have put the remotes for their road droppers. And first of all there's not a perfect place for it. I'm the perfect place would be a left lever on a one, but the proposition of gutting a hydraulic lever to get the, the Paul's out of it, if you will, you know, the clicking mechanism is a tall, tall order and so it's difficult to make the left shift at work unless it's a dedicated left shifted dropper. Post activator smells only exists. And then on the mechanical side we do know people that have got it on, but when you're talking like a hydraulic disc brakes left shifter, um, other than that, the Ambar end ended up being the best position. So you'll see if you search on bike room or in the internet, you'll see what, what we had shown at the show. But, uh, basically that's the next best spot for ergonomics, for safety, you know, not moving your hands too far. All of that. Yeah. And being able to at least keep it on one part of the bar while you're activating it, I think it's going to be important. Yeah. Not Getting in the way of your critical hand position spots. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's exciting to see the industry continue to innovate and have you guys fill the pockets where there's a short term need, but also look at creating longterm sustainable products. So I appreciate you spending time with us today. Yeah, well thanks for having me. It's always, always something to talk to you and glad to gladly come on again, if you ever would like to see come up. Well we'll put links to all the products we've talked about in the podcast notes and make sure everybody knows where to find you to see if any of these teas products come out and definitely I want people to take a look at the auto bike because I think it's a really. It's a good looking bike. It's got some unique attributes to it and clearly you guys are super thoughtful about what you're doing. Yeah, thanks. Cheers.
Episode Links: Peloton Magazine Peloton Instagram The Gravel Mob Event Registration. 10% off use code TheGravelRide10 UPDATE: 2018 event is SOLD OUT. Transcription: Hello everyone, this week I want to welcome Ben Edwards from Peloton magazine to the podcast. Ben, thanks for joining us. No problem. Thank you for having me and having a having to the Peloton gravel, Bob and Peloton magazine on the show. Yeah. I'm excited to dig in with you. I always like to start by giving our listeners a little bit of understanding about your background as a cyclist, your current sort of gravel interests and because he worked for Peloton magazine. Love to hear a little bit about how you arrived at Peloton. Yeah, sure. Well, I, I got into bike racing as a kid in high school. I played water polo and a kid showed up on pool deck with a road bike and he was wearing tights and we all kind of made fun of him, but in the back of my head I'm thinking that looks really cool and I want to do that. And my dad had a background as a cyclist, so once I told them I was interested then it was. It was full gas and I spent a lot of years racing is a junior track racing, a lot of team pursuit, a points race, stuff like that. And then really, um, after I was about 21 I realized I was not going to win the Tour de France. And so I, I went to school and I didn't touch the bike for almost 10 years. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, my wife, when I was 30, bought me a road bike. I took one look at it and I said, uh, oh, we're in trouble. I just, I felt that, uh, that passion just immediately explode. And uh, yeah, it was in the movie business. And so I started doing a lot of, um, lot of film work in the cycling industry. And I started a website called [inaudible] dot com where we did a lot of bike reviews. And, uh, and from there I met Brad Rowe, who is our publisher at Peloton magazine. I met Tim Shamburg, who's our creative director, and those guys were itching to do a different kind of cycling magazine and they invited me to come on board and, uh, enjoying the party and that was eight years ago, eight years ago when we founded Peloton magazine, along with Adam, rick and Robert Rex and, um, man's been 80. We're on working on her 80th issue now. It's just hard to believe because it still feels so fresh and fun. But yeah, eight years ago, working on her 80th issue now. That's amazing. For those of you who haven't seen Peloton magazine, I definitely encourage you to go out and grab an issue really beautifully done. Every time I have an a, every time I receive an issue, I'm just inspired to ride. I think you guys do an amazing job of capturing the visual aspects of cycling and it just makes you want to kind of get suited up and go out the door. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Or um, you know, our goal with Peloton really was we didn't do a lot of focus groups. We didn't try and think what do people want to see, we just did what we wanted to see and luckily people agree with us, so we had a really fun ride for eight years and this will be our biggest year yet. Um, so, so nothing but, uh, on the web. It's looking really good. That's awesome. And it seems to me that Peloton seized on the gravel cycling scene pretty early on and has really done a lot to kind of promote gravel within the pages in the magazine. Yeah, I think that gets back to what I just mentioned, that when we just saw something we liked and we were interested in, we didn't worry if it was going to be a fit or if a drop bar magazine should be doing something in the dirt. We just thought it was cool and we just knew we were doing a lot of it on our own and we wanted to make it part of the magazine. I've always been at a mountain bike riding and mountain bike racing than a lot of that. And um, it was a great way to one, get dirt riding in Peloton magazine, which is really a drop bar, road magazine, and it was also, you know, I mean, I think it's everyone knows who rides gravel it, it's an incredible way to sort of reinvent writing territory. You may cite, you thought you knew well, you know, loops that were not possible on a road bike or not a lot of fun on a mountain bike because there was a bunch of road sections or is all just fire road are suddenly unlocked on a gravel bike. Eh, you know, in a way that's really inspiring. And, and I'm good, like I said, reinvents areas that people thought they knew. Well there's, there's new rides to be had. Yeah. I think for me, as I've said many times on this podcast, it's really drawn me back into cycling. Just that idea that I can create these mixed terrain loops and travel all over marine county, avoid the cars and see the beautiful scenery. It's just, it gets me out riding, which is super exciting about the gravel scene. Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's, that's a huge part of it is getting just out of traffic, you know, my wife, she asked me, are you going for a ride where you going? And if I say I'm writing gravel, she kind of breathes a sigh of relief and goes, have fun. I never thought of that. But it's so true. I'm curious for your, from your perspective in the industry and as somebody who's been on the both the road and mountain side, what, what part of the sport, if, if you had to, if you had to say from the road side or the mountain side, do you think gravel is drawing more athletes from? Well that's a great question. Um, I, I would say probably from the road side right now because, you know, a lot of the guys who were on mountain mountain is so segmented anyway, so segmented. Anyway, there's so many guys that are downhill and so many guys that are all mountain an enduro. And, and I do think a fair amount of the equity guys, the cross country guys have found gravel riding gravel racing. Um, but I just know so many friends that are just dedicated roadies that just their eyes have just been opened up by gravel riding and what's possible and they're so excited about the equipment and about trying to find the right gravel setup for them. Um, and it's a lot of things, you know, talking about tire pressure and tire size. You're riding that mountain. Bikers are familiar with that kind of conversation and for a lot of roadies it's very new and so it's really, um, it energizes them in a way that I don't think, um, they have been for awhile. Yeah. I tend to agree with you. It's something I've been pondering for a little bit now because I do think that more roadies are discovering gravel then mountain bike guys, for all the reasons you just described and I think it's having an effect on the equipment in the space as well because I think a lot of the equipment manufacturers came from that road plus mindset versus a mountain bike mindset. And we're starting to see the influence with the bigger tire bikes like open and thesis and a bunch of other bikes out there that are really starting to look at it from more of a cross country mountain bike perspective and add the road elements on it rather than a road perspective and add the dirt elements on it. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's very true. You sort of look at a gravel product right now and to me it always falls into two categories. It falls into sort of gravel survival, which when you look like sauces cycles, that's something like maybe a, a, a cutthroat, you know, it's a little more relaxed, tons of tire volume. It's also great adventure bike. And if you're going to try and knock out cancer and you know, you're going to be out there for a long time and just want to survive and be comfy. So perfect bike. And then there's sort of that gravel race side of things, you know. And that's um, that's like a salsa warbird, you know, something where you're gonna run a smaller tire as you can. You're really going to try and run light and you know, I want to be controversial, but some of the guys were put an arrow bars on these things now. So they're sort of. To me, there's two sides. There's gravel survival in gravel race and those products are starting to differentiate. Yeah. I buy that. United had mentioned before on the pod that I originally got interested in gravel from the bike packing side of things and I was seeing. I was just interested in following races, like the tour divide and not that I had done much of that myself, but I started to look at those bikes in the types of adventures that they were designed for and as someone who probably aligns himself more as a mountain biker than a roadie. There was a, there was an instant appeal to me. Um, and so you see the bikes, like what salsa was doing with the drop bars that were, could have a lot of carrying capacity and they were built for the, for the tour divide. And then you started seeing the other side of the spectrum where it was just sort of these road plus bikes that may be, could get out to a 38 tire Max. Um, so I liked those two categories as you define it. And clearly there's no right or wrong answer. I think it's an interesting discussion to continue to have with lots of people because as my listeners are trying to figure out what bikes are they going to buy to get into the sport, these are the types of things I think you have to grapple with. It's sort of like, are you just going to kind of get off the beaten path from time to time or is it going to be primarily dirt? Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I think, um, you're talking about those bikes where you can get up to a 38, right? That's, you can write that on the club ride with us at 28 mil tires. Put the 38th on it and you got a great bike for gravel worlds or, or the Peloton gravel mob. But you might want something a little different if you're looking at crusher or you're looking at at a dirty Kanza. But that's again, I think one of the things that energizes people is it's really tough to say what's the right bike for a specific course because you're sort of always making a compromise somewhere. You're compromising on the fast section. If you go with bigger tires and you're more laid back, you're compromising on the more technical sections if you're trying to run a real fast, narrow tire setup. So that's the equation that everyone gets to wrestle with when they are signing up for these events and trying to, you know, trying to build their right bike. That's a great segue because I want to talk about the gravel mob event that is coming up. Sure. It's actually one of my favorite events. As I mentioned to you before. I think I'll be on my third edition this year when I come down and on it to me captures all the elements of a great gravel ride. It's got great adventure. It brought me way off the beaten path that never written any of that terrain. And the first time I had been down there, and Ohi I hated my bike at one point and I love to add another point. I wait all day long for that ripping single track at the end. I'm going to tell you that right now because I'm the guy who rides the fat tires and I'm dragging up hill, but when I get there, boy, Oh boy, I am cruising down there and finding the guys who elected to be on 28 suffering through that tiny last section of the course. Yup, Yup. Yeah, absolutely. That, that is a, our Howard creek descent off the ridge line. It's definitely something that the, uh, the event has become known for. So tell us how the event started. I know you're linked up with a great shop down there and Ohi and a lot of great sponsors. I just love to hear about how it all got started. Yeah. Well, so it's our fifth year doing this when we did it with a mob shop in Ohio, uh, one of the owners of the mob shop, Tim Rowen is my co race director. So we pretty much, you know, um, it's, it's pretty equal load there in terms of the, the entire creation of the race, um, and, and running it itself. So we, uh, went six years ago, we had a Peloton cross, we were doing a cross race out at Lake Casitas here in Ohio and we decided the next year, hey, on Sunday after the cross race, let's do a gravel ride and let's go ahead and kind of create this course that we think shows off the best of, of gravel riding in Ohi and sort of Ventura county. And we realized pretty quickly that, uh, it was a lot more fun too in that gravel race. Then I'm at the crossroads and we love cross, but hearts were gravel, gravel is where our heart is. So we transitioned into just making the Palatine graebel mob, um, our focus and definitely have not regretted that. And we've had some amazing sponsors come on to support the event and just support gravel writing in general. Pattern racer has been a sponsor since year one. And then make the gravel cane, which is just, they have a bunch of great options for the ride and the gravel cane, whether you're ride in the SK or one of the file treads is perfect. Easton came on last year and Craig Ritchie, who runs their marketing program, he was in the lead group all day. I'm that guy is crazy fit. He'll be back racing again. A goo comes out, good nutrition, you rehearse while day. Kansas Champ. He comes out and he leads a ride the day before and then he crushes it on the course again. And Salsa cycles coming back for that second year. Those guys have been amazing support. And uh, we're giving away a warbird again this year in our December issue. If people saw that ultimate bike build we did last year, that was all salsa. All Easton. I'm pattern racer. And then we're really super excited because Wa who's coming on board this year as our official gps sponsor. So, uh, if you know our, our raffle at the end, which is about as important as the race itself for us a while it will be a part of that as well. That's awesome. I'm looking forward to it. I, I've been lucky two years in a row. I've walked away with something awesome. So I'm stoked for that. So I know you said you wanted, you guys wanted to kind of just create a course that took a good hard look at all the disciplines within gravel and providing a sort of an option of pushing your limits regardless of what your strengths are. So if we chop up the course, I know we've got a couple of climbs in there, a couple of good descents. Can you talk a little bit more specifically about the course and what people should expect? Yeah, absolutely. So I mean overall the course is 58 miles. So when people think about a gravel riding, oh, that's short. And it is, it is short for a short program, programmable ride and part of that's very intentional. We want people to enjoy the party after and hang out for a long time, you know, we got tacos and beer and like I said, the greater the raffle after. So that's as important as the race to us is that community feeling after an in sharing those stories from the course. But uh, we started out, the first big, big obstacle is called Sulfur Mountain. It's a monster monster climb that is in the neighborhood of eight miles, but it's really like super highway dirt fire road. And so that's where the first group group goes away, is right on there. Um, after that, the next big climb is called CSR and a CIS. Our road is a beast. It's really steep through a creek bed at the beginning. But again, fire road, couple of water crossings, it looks like there'll be a little wet this year and that's another super, super long long climb because overall there's 8,000 feet of climbing on the course. Yeah, that's. This is our climate is definitely. I think it's part obviously that it's in the latter half of the race and you've already climbed sulfur mountain, but there's something about it that I think, well, for me it was just very taxing. I think it's this super steep pitches and a couple of years I've been down there, it's been super hot. Uh, so people were just melting away on that climb. Yeah. Did you get one of the popsicles? I just have a night. I was just going to mention that. I mean towards the, towards the aid station, at the top of the climb, this, this young volunteers running down with shaking something in his hands and he asked do you want a popsicle? And I honestly like didn't know if my brain was working correctly, if I'm truly answering the right question. Absolutely. I want to popsicle. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And there'll be popsicles, oncourse again, don't worry. Yeah. So that climb, it's eight miles long and it's over 3000 feet of climbing. So it's, it's a big ask, although this year, and we can talk about this a little more when we get to Howard trail. So there's some big updates there. We had the Thomas fire come through in December, which really scorched all of Ohio and you're going to get a front row seat to seeing what happened with the Thomas fire in the back country of Ohio on this ride. But because of that, the bottom of Sister Canyon road, which used to be the most technical section of the course is beautiful smooth dirt. So I did a facebook post earlier this week. Um, if Neil Shirley's Koom is to fall, it's going to be this year because the bottom of the course is so fast right now that that could have a huge impact. I mean, I, that's, that part of that climb sticks in my memory every year as something that sort of piece pick male your way through. And a lot of people were getting off and walking. So I, I think, uh, our friend Neil may have some challenges in that. Keeping that KLM. Yeah, the time is not so fast, but if it's going to be done it'll be, it'll be this year. But then after you get to the top of sis are you get to what I think is the signature moment of the race itself, which is the North Ridge road. It's just this beautiful eight mile long, gorgeous gravel road across the spine of the Topa Topa mountains. And you're at over 4,000 feet. You have unbelievable, unbelievable views out to the Pacific Ocean. You're looking into the CSP wilderness left to your right. We think it's the best gravel road in America. And uh, and to me it's a signature part of the ride itself, getting getting our field up there and enjoy. And that is incredible. Yeah, no, there's definitely spectacular views. I spent a little bit more time last year up there than I had planned as my good good riding buddy. Todd got a flat and we had a hell of a time getting his tire unseated off the rim and changing out. So we were probably sitting around for 10, 10 minutes looking at that view as we were begging for extra tire leavers from riders that came by and eventually got it, got it corrected. And the good thing about where we were located was a few miles further down the trail. We came to the next aid station where I got the second surprising offer of the day. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah. Are Our final aid station of the day is right at the entrance to that single track descent you referenced earlier. Uh, Howard Howard creek trail. And um, this event is kind of run like a family event. So a lot of the people up there are my brother, my sister in law. My kid probably ran down to give you the popsicle. And so what my, my brother and sister in law, I do at that third aid station. It's not officially sanctioned by the event, but rumor has it if you need it to kill a shot before you dropped down Howard, you can have a tequila shot before you dropped down. Howard? Yes. Ed recollection serves in a doe is all fuzzy at this point. I had one of those, it, I don't think it had any net effect on me, but I did because my legs were so tired at that point. But I enjoyed that dissent, uh, as I said, I had the bike for it, so it was a lot of fun and you know, it's always fun getting a little tiny bit of payback for the guys who were on the super lightweight setups on the way up. Yeah. Yeah. So that Howard creek trail, it's called, is two, almost two and a half miles of single track. You're going to drop over a thousand feet. Um, it's, it's loose, it's exposed. Uh, and, and that's always where I said, you know, at some point during the ride, like you were saying, you're, you're having a great time and you're cursing usually us for sending you down that trail, like if you don't think that we're a little bit nuts at that point. Well, it's definitely a, um, a cool moment. And I think for a lot of people who are coming from that skinny tire background, it definitely pushes their comfort zone and pushes their technical ability. But everyone who gets down is so fired up that they were able to do it and they realized really what these drop bar bikes can do. Even with a set of 28 or 32 is, it's amazing what you can ride. Yeah, and I think the thing is it's so different from every other part of that course that you've been on all day long to arrive there and have to really just wind your way through that single track. As you said, it's loose. It takes a lot of bike control. It's a lot of fun from my perspective, but I definitely saw that it challenged a lot of people and you know, a few people I saw at the very end they're getting out onto the road where like I'm just glad I got through that without injury or, or clipping out too much. But then as you, as you're probably about to say, you're sort of rewarded by this really fun ripping road descent. Yeah. That's the descent of Rose Valley, which is sort of a staple climb out here. But we send our writers down it. So once you get off Howard, you get this a super smooth and flowing descent for 10 miles all the way back into Ohio. And uh, yeah, once you get to that point, you really know you've cracked it, you're going to make it, it's all good. Head Back Beers and talk. Yeah. And I remember each year it's sort of linking up with maybe six or seven people in pace lining and cramping, cramping as I'm coming into town house, hoping that I could stay with the group because I don't want to be out there any longer. And I know the Taco guys are already cranking the Tacos. Yeah. Well, and that's where guys who are riding the bigger tires or you know, every year there's a few guys and hardtail mountain bikes, which is great. We love it, bring them. But uh, that's where they suffer. Uh, you know, usually not a big enough gear and you're just turning a lot of tire to try and stick with some guys on some skinnier gear and dropbox. But again, it's all about finding not just the right bike, the event, the right bike for you. Where do you want to make your compromise and that that's all part of the fun. Yeah. And it's in Ohio is a great community. I mean, it was a community I hadn't visited prior to racing at Graebel mob, so it was, it's awesome because you can go down there, you can make a weekend of it, you can bring your family this plenty of plenty to do and it's a community that can definitely use our support after the Thomas fires last year. Yeah, no, no question, no question. The fires were crazy up here, but um, yeah, it is an amazing place to come hang out for the weekend and like you said, bring the family, make a weekend of it. Um, there's, there's plenty to do for, for everybody, but yeah, one thing we should definitely mention is that Howard creek trail, which we just briefly touched on, um, that's gone. That trail was wiped off the face of the mountain by the Howard, by the, uh, Thomas fire really. So all the, all the, all the plants and vegetation burned off at that trail. What happened, if you remember a lot of the real scary sections with little pucker factor. They had some wood retaining structures. Will the Thomas Fire burnt those structures away? And then we had heavy, heavy rain in January that just wiped the trail off the side of the mountain. Gotcha. Because it was, it was absolutely on the side of a mountain and I could easily see like any erosion is going to just take the whole thing out. Exactly. Exactly. So we've, we've hooked up with a guy here up in Ohio who is basically the Ohi trail whisper, this Guy Mike Gourley, he's a staple in the Ohi Ventura county cycling community and he just works tirelessly on these trails. And so a bunch of our sponsors, eastern Guru wa who stepped up along with Peloton to help foot the bill to repair that trail. So, so my Gourley is up there with a crew, literally recutting Howard trail, almost almost from scratch. So it should be an amazing shape by the time the race comes. But I'm just a huge thanks to the sponsors for stepping up to help, uh, you know, a pair of trail, not just for our event, but you know, it's one of those popular trails in that Ohi back country. So it's amazing that it'll be there, you know, be there in great shape for everybody. Yeah, absolutely. That's hugely appreciated. I'm super curious to check that out. I know talking to a couple of local rippers they were saying that they love to come up there and downhill that on their bikes, which I can see. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The downhill is pretty fast and there's a that is officially neutral on the course, um, because really we're more of a ride than a race. It's not really about the race, it's about the ride. And there's of course, like any club ride, like anything, there's guys at the front that are racing, but really officially it's a ride. We don't give out prizes for first, second or third. Everything we get from these amazing sponsors goes into the raffle. So whether you finished first or dead last, you have the same chance of walking away with an eastern set of wheels and new Wahoo, gps, new pattern racer tires, some eastern components. Um, a bunch of good nutrition, some Schwag from salsa. Doesn't matter where you finish, you have an equal chance of winning. Last year you guys did something interesting in the magazine and you built up that gravel mob bike from salsa and you alluded to that. You're going to do that again this year. We're not doing that. That was sort of a, the ultimate build or at least what I think would be the ultimate build for the race. Like we said, there's the ultimate bill is different for everybody. So this year we're going to be giving away a salsa cycles warbird, but it's one of their stock builds. Okay. But still the way salsa puts that thing together, um, you, you can't go wrong. It's an amazing bike, not just for this ride, but for, for any ride, whether it's back country or like we talked about, you want to put on some skinny tires on it and write it on the road. It's more than capable of it. Yeah. I thought that was an interesting project because it just illustrates a lot of what we've been talking about. How the right bike for gravel mob you had, you had a bunch of different constraints in there yet a bunch of climbing with 8,000 feet of climbing, but then you had this gnarly single track descent at the end. So putting together a package that would work across all those different types of terrain was a pretty big challenge. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and you look at the bottom of CSR, it's so steep. You really want to have that one to one gear ratio or maybe even a little more gear, but then you have a ripping fast spun out, descent down Roads Valley. So you've got to have a lot of gear range. Um, and like you said with Howard, do I want to run a 40 mil tire with some Nabi on it so I feel comfortable on Howard, but then I'm climbing with that up up. Um, you know, our first cleanup, sulfur mountain, which is a really fast climate. You can easily do on 28 millimeter road tires in the dirt, you know. So it's all about this tradeoff. Yeah. I have to say, uh, I've, I've added one easier gear each time I've come to gravel mob and I don't think I'm quite there yet. I'm mashing up a up Caesar. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know the guys that are really racing the course. I mean some of those guys are hitting it on a 34 slash 28 or a 34 slash 32 less than a one to one. But then yeah, uh, myself included us that are a little farther back. We went that one to one gear ratio for sure. We'll have to see. I'm thinking about making a couple of equipment changes before, before the event, so we'll see what I end up with this year. Yeah, right on. Yeah, I know. Uh, I, I put 40 millimeter gravel king slicks on that salsa ultimate build. And I know a lot of people thought not slicks and file treads. A lot of people thought, oh, why didn't you go with the ski with a little more knob? But, you know, it was sort of my ultimate build. So maybe not ever been everybody's ultimate build, but I wanted, I wanted the file treads for the road stuff. That's a. that's a good choice. I think we'll have to see. That's what I love about. I mean frankly I'm like I'm not the type of writer that makes a lot of switches for a specific. Even though I kinda think about it a lot, but as I said, I've got a couple of moves in my bike quiver that may be happening before gravel mob this year. So I'll make some choices. Maybe with the intention of changing things up a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, like we talked about, that whole equipment equation is such a fun and engaging part of it, but I mean the other aspect to be of not just our event but, but all gravel racing is. I look at it as sort of like the ironman example where you get to race on the same course on the same day with world champions, with guys who wrote the Tour de France with some of the best athletes in the world and you're literally line up with them, which isn't going to happen anywhere else, you know, and it doesn't matter if you're trying to win, are you just wanting to be a participant? You all get to have that experience together. I mean last year at our race, but we had met over and came out. Got You said mountain bike world champion there. You know, we got neil surely lining up the guy who is, you know, 30 Kansas Champ, unbelievable writer. We've had dave brisky out there and to really get to line up with those guys in, you can try and stick with them, you know? Where else can you say, I'm going to try and stick with the tour Yellow Jersey on the at a big climb other than gravel racing, it just doesn't happen anywhere else. Yeah, absolutely. One of my strengths and gravel racing is the neutral rollout. I don't tend to get dropped. Yeah, so I get to ride with all the guys at that point, which I think is fun. It's fun. Rolling out of 10, rolling out of Ohio together, down that bike path, and then kind of getting everybody's geared together for the first climb and and having the second start line if you will. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's really is so everyone can line up and start to get it because I don't know if you've ever done something like the Belgian waffle ride. Not all neutral starts are created equal. There are some full gas neutral starts out. There are neutral strategies are real neutral. Start with a regroup at the bottom of sulfur mountain and that's where the ride really gets going. Yeah. Now I want to go back to one thing you touched on which was the distance of the ride at 58 miles because I do think personally that that's the sweet spot. It's the type of thing that it's. It's not insignificant. Certainly with the climbing, you feel like you'd put a big day together, but it's also not bone crushing at all. Yeah. Yeah. I made the top guys are going under four hours, they're moving and then there's some people that are taking six or seven of course. But uh, yeah, it's, it's to really sort of reinforced the fact that we feel the community aspect is as important as the ride itself. And you know, everyone's got a story to tell whether you were first or last. So let's, let's hear your story and let's do it over or some, some great tacos from Turkey, a house in Topa, Topa. Brilliant. Does the beer. So it's a and we're all hanging out at the mob shop. It's um, it's the perfect environment to share those stories. Yeah, it is. I think it's interesting as how the race promoters and course designers are exploring the different ends of the spectrum, whether it's shorter, punchier races that are really truly races and everybody's gone ballistic the whole time. Or the gravel mob distance, which I think is a, is the kind of perfect in between a distance where it's hard and long but not epic. And then you've got, you know, things like dk, 200 and the xl that are just exploring the full epic side of the spectrum. Yeah, yeah, exactly. How far can you go. And, and we, I love that side of the sport as well. I've done grab a world's 150 mile course eight hour day. Um, we love that side of it too. Bwr what those guys do. They put on a great, a great event. But yeah, we like to hang out and have tacos and beer and not be completely smashed. Yeah, no, I think I've come to the conclusion that there's room for all of them, you know, in the calendar and some you're only gonna do one, maybe 150 200 mile race a year and you'll focus on that. But you can, you can drop in a ton of these 60 mile in shorter races. Um, and have a blast doing them. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean that, that has been an amazing part of this gravel riding explosion, not just all the cool product and all the brands that are getting behind it, but the promoters and just, there's so many great events. Uh, you know, it's southern California here. We got Grapes of Wrath coming up October 26th I think, which is an amazing event. Sandbar. And is that the same emphasis, the rock cobbler out in, um, in Bakersfield, which is another amazing events in, I think it's in February. So there's just so many cool events that you as a writer, you really, you have your pick of just a really fun calendar. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the toughest thing is an earthing information about all these great regional events and putting a plan together to go hit them. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I know, uh, my buddy at fast track, Dave lotteria comes out and does the gravel bob every year. But uh, at the end he ended the year. He always does this big facebook post with every single number that he has from the year. And as well as I know the grapple seen, there's still some numbers in there. I'm like, what event is that? And I have to look into it because there's so much out there. Yeah, I mean it's clear the classics of the future or just get getting created right now, which is exciting to be part of the sport at this juncture. Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking that this year at Belgian waffle ride, you know, the, the guys that um, that are going well there and trying to win that, that's going to be their biggest one of the season, you know, I think more people know who ted king is now for winning dirty Kanza. Then when he was racing the tour and racing the zero, I mean that's how far the sport's come. Yeah, I would definitely agree with that bullet. Ben. I appreciate all the time. It's always great to talk gravel with someone who's been in it and, and making the scene happen. I appreciate you guys creating the event and I appreciate all the coverage and Peloton magazine. Oh well, no problem. And thank you for letting us talk about our event. Just we throw it out there at Peloton gravel mob is going to be on November 17th this year and we want to put together, we've put together a code for your listeners, so if you listen to the gravel ride, go to bike, Raj searched, peloton gravel mob, put in gravel ride 10, and you get 10 percent off your entry for being a a gravel ride podcast listener. That's awesome. Well, I appreciate that Ben, and we'll definitely try to get a truckload of people here from northern California to come down and hope hopefully listeners from around the country. We'll have time to make plans and as I said, Ohio is a great, great place to visit and an even better place to gravel ride. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Bring the family. It's an awesome spot.
In this episode, we interview Manuel Kanza of Inspiradanza. We hear about his story of become a professional afro house dancer and instructor.
Episode Links: The Gravel Mob Event Lauf Cycling Crusher in the Tushar Automated Transcript (forgive typos). Neil, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. I always like to start off by finding out a little bit about how you discovered gravel, where you're coming more from the mountain or road side. Well, I guess like going way, way back, you know, my, my background is I'm a pro mountain biker for three years before transitioning over to the road, but it was, I'd say honestly like my past and gravel came from, came from the skinny tires and it was just being out of my training rides like I grew up in San Louis Obispo where there's just some really killer dirt road to ride gravel roads, you know, in the midst of a road ride. And so I'd hit some of those than I lived in San Diego and you know, same, same idea again, you just like stuff like va Haas grade and Boulder Creek road. Some of those, you know, travel sections that did just complete a really cool road ride. So I'd say that was like the first kind of my entry into it, but then, you know, when I quit racing professionally is when I got head over heels into gravel. And when was that? So my last pro race was US Pro road race 2010 in September. So then I'm kind of hung it up, wasn't sure how much I was really going to ride a bike anymore and took a job as the editor of road bike action magazine. Um, and then it was literally like within a year that kind of did like the first Belgian waffle ride. And that really was like, whoa. That was, that would, I would say that was probably my path into grab walks. That would be the first event that I actually ran different equipment on a road bike than I normally would have to ride. And Yeah. And then it was like, it was all about gravel after that. What kind of equipment changes could you make at that point? Back in 2010 if you can remember? Yeah. So, you know, forget what bike I rode in for the first few are. So, so the first Bwr I guess would have been 20, 2012 maybe. And that was a, just go in with a road bike and putting, putting essentially just 20 ac tires on it. I'm lowering the pressure a little bit. Um, but even, even then you were only. No, you didn't even have a wide selection of really good tubeless tire, so you know, it was running like a Grand Prix, you know, continental Grand Prix, 3004 seasons. So just a really tough all around tire. Um, so yeah, it was really just is really just wider tires was about it. Um, and then my first real entry into, you know, what we'd really categorize gravel as now would have been crushed the [inaudible] I'm out in Utah and it's my good friend, teammate on the road, Birch swindlehurst put on that event and you know, it really worked out that, you know, while I was working I was at road bike action. We wanted to do a project like, and there are some small, you know, independent builders that were just getting into gravel. I mean you couldn't go out and buy a gravel bike for mania that big brands like term didn't even really exist yet. So I went to Kathy and had them build a custom dragon fly road frame with um, what, what we call a just like adventure geometry. And that allowed me to run up to a 35 tire and disc brakes. And so I was like my first true gravel bike and it was seeing was pretty amazing when you think about it, like going back to 2012. Yeah, that's, that's pretty amazing. You often hear a lot of people from the road side of the sport reference crusher and Natasha and Bwr and I think part of it, his crusher with Brent. It's brand right? Who organizes it? A Burke Burke, sorry. With Burke's road background. I think he naturally drew in a lot of his friends who were looking for an adventure. And that adventure then started to become known to other riders and athletes who were like, hell yeah, I want to give that a try. Yeah, I'd say that's a good way to phrase it. Say both, like Bwr in crusher really pushed kind of that race and maybe crusher doesn't do it as much now, but early on it was. It was really about the race and it was one of the only gravel events that actually has a price person. They still do. And you know, the winter both male and female and get a thousand dollars for the win and, and Bwr very much same way even though there isn't a, you know, a cash purse. I'm Michael Marks, you know, the event founder like he, he really comes from that road scene and it's that kind of that so cal race mentality and that's, you know, that's really, I think what's built up the hype around event was kind of the roadside and coming in and pushing the limits of what you can do on a road bike. Yeah. And I've heard Michael defend very aggressively against it being called the gravel grinder or gravel race. You really wanted to have, you know, that road orientation, like a Belgian classic, which I think is interesting because as we noted it's, it is exciting and the amount of dirt in that particular races small enough that in a roadies are coming out and riding it hard and just taken their lumps in the dirt and discovering that the dirt part was actually quite fun. Yeah. No. And it's true. And I mean the first year of that event and the first couple of years like you just didn't, you know, there, there's still the range now, like if you went to the Bwr this year, like the range of equipment is, is mindblowing out there. You have someone you know from a road bike with 25 see tires all the way to the guy with, you know, a gravel bike, six wheels and two point one and mountain bike tires. But early on like those, those extra, you know, the extreme of the six slash 50 b and then all the gravel options and tire sizes, all that. Stuff like that really didn't exist. Then. Like that's really just been within the last handful of years that we have so much equipment available to us. Yeah, it's true. I imagine, and I've heard others refer to this back in the early days of crusher that you'd see all kinds of bikes show up there from mountain bikes to modified cross bikes to straight up road bikes with the fattest tires they can handle on it. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, my setup the first year I did it in 2012 on that calfee, like I, I went, I essentially had no budget because I could call up these companies and tell them what I was doing and this would be a big feature in the magazine. So getting the equipment was, was easy and so I had the best stuff I could, I could pick, but I was still very much limited. Like I ran, I envy the cross Pepsi Mountain bike wheels in tubular because clinchers at that time were, the wheels were support so heavy and the tire options were so limited as well. I mean you only had only had cyclocross tires and with the UCI limit of cyclocross tire being 33 cm in width, there just weren't high volume tires available. Um, so I was out there tubulars, now I look back and it's like kind of comedy, you know, because we have such a myriad of, of tire ranges, every brand basically in tubeless option or tubeless ready options. So you know, it's a good. Anyone getting into the segment of the sport now is like, you know, good for you because you have so much equipment available at prices that are, that are pretty economic now. Yeah. The the riders who started out early on, we were more a controlled by constraints in the industry, so we were just picking things that were incrementally bigger or better than where we were able to ride previously and now to your point, there's just been an explosion and the gravel bike, it's such a broad definition and I think manufacturers are approaching it from so many different perspectives. You definitely see on the more road side manufacturers just allowing for larger tires to give a little bit more freedom and potentially make them accessible for light gravel use and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, you've got companies that are coming from more of a bike packing perspective that are building these burly monster cross off road machines with drop bars that are totally different ends of the spectrum and it's really fascinating. I think for a lot of my listeners who are just getting into the sport, try to figure out where in that spectrum does it make sense to place their ownership? Yeah, I think that that's true. And it, you know, to your point, it's great that all these options exist, but also for the consumer, the person just getting into the scene, they know it can be a little bit overwhelming because there is such a range in bikes. All kind of categorized is gravel or adventure bikes. And so like if you're coming in and you know like where, what side you air on like extreme or kind of the, you know, the road bike with just a little more clearance that can take us 33 c or something like that. So, you know, I think with those options it's like consumer education is a big part of it. So podcasts like this are just a great, a great tool for people getting into it. Yeah, I agree that it's, it's totally confusing for consumers getting in once they really peel the onion around gravel and try to grab a bunch of resources to try to figure out what does this brand manufacturer, what's the approach, what will this bike enable me to do is a ton of thought that goes into it. I know that was my personal journey. I ended up getting a commuter bike that was enabled me to have dyspraxia and you know, it's fairly wide, 700 see tires and the moment I started riding off road in Marine County I just started to think that fatter would be better and ultimately ended up with something that could take 6:50, b one nine tires and I pretty much ride big fat tires all the time at this point. Yeah, I'm kind kinda right there with. I used to early on like I'd go out to Rebecca is private Idaho or something on the run, you know like the 33 see specialized trigger because I thought it would be so much faster than a 35 or something. And now, you know, as I've, as I've written more groundwater than more events, I've seen like some of the test data coming out from some of these companies, it's like air pressure's going down, tire volume is going up, rim volume is going up, all these things improve the rhymes so much. So now I'm like, I don't really have a reason to go smaller than like a 40 c with a 700 seat. We'll, um, unless I was doing like maybe grab a world and I was really looking for the most efficient setup possible. I could go narrower because I mean those, those roads, like I grabbed the world which is in Lincoln, Nebraska, they're there gravel. But it's such a hard pack. The link, you know, like the tire lane, um, might as well be pavement. I know you've worked a lot with envy over your career and you mentioned that you see a trend for rims going lighter. Can you get into that a little bit more for us? Yeah. So I, you know, there's, there's a number of, you know, head was one of the first ones really that got into the wide rim trend with some of their, um, road wheels and then envy has been right there with them kind of pushing that. And this year envy came out with their g 23, there are specific gravel we'll um, which as a 23 millimeter internal and it's easy to get caught up on just thinking like, okay, wider, wider is better. But, so the, like the [inaudible] three is, is kind of designed after the m five, two five, which is the cross country mountain bike rim, but the [inaudible] three is two millimeters narrower. And so that's really just to go with a 35 to 40, 40 to see tire, kind of that range that they're running. So it's not always just about wider is better at it, you know, how it works. And with the tire size, what is the benefit of that width to the rider? Um, it has, it has multiple benefits. One is just, again, overall overall volume is you're opening up. If you're increasing the volume, um, you know, you have more pinch flat protection, um, you can decrease the pressure, um, you know, without, if you decrease the pressure to have a nice ride on a narrower rim, the opportunity, it's easier to get a pinch flats. Um, so yeah, I would say that that's the biggest one of the biggest improvements. And does that end up translating into something different with the tires you're running when you're running a little bit less pressure and you kind of get maybe a flatter footprint. Is it changing the way tire manufacturers are looking at what they're producing and tire manufacturers are definitely looking at it, but I'd say more so on, on the road side. So you see some of these, um, with like say the new cannondale aerobic stitches came out, it comes with a 25 c tire, which you would think, you know, maybe it's not that wide, but you look at the rim that it's on. All of the sudden, like he measured, it's probably like a 28 or 29 millimeter wide tire on the super wider rims that are coming stock on the bike so that all that all comes into the play and that, um, it all counts as overall overall air volume. You have to factor in the rim and the tire it. I'm kind of an interesting thing that envy did on their website is they put together a tire tire pressure chart and it factors in right away rim width. So it's not just and be specific, you can figure out, you know, what your, your inner rim width is on brand x. we'll you can go in and look at, see what they suggest, like whoa. A highlight, high range and low range for tire pressure. It's a pretty handy guy. Um, that I think will surprise people on kind of how low they recommend on, on some of the setups. Yeah. I think that's common with a lot of people I talked to you is that they've found that they've just gotten lower and lower on the pressure because they're not getting any negative consequences to that. I've been learning a little bit more about what you were talking about around tire width relative to rim width and how you know the measurement of the tires are. We can't just do chronically think of these millimeters anymore because with a wider rim it's going to fat now to a little bit and it's gonna feel like a bigger tire then maybe you think you've specked on your bike. Yeah, exactly. You really have to kind of look at it as it as a system, right? Rather than just the individual than just a rim or the tire. It's like both combined because that's. That's what you're writing, right? Yeah, absolutely. In the right direction, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, and it overwhelmingly seems like to a degree fatter and wider or better. Obviously we'll find the outer bound of that statement, but I always encourage everybody is listening to go to go fatter than they think they should go initially because I rarely hear of anybody complaining about that choice. Yeah, for sure. And the the, you know, the only thing you have to keep in mind is as that air volume increases, you need to. You need to decrease the pressure. That's kind of the, you know, the fine point in at all. If you, if you're running a 35 see tire on on a rim and you put a 40 on the same rim and you run it at the same pressure, it's going to feel like the pressure is increased. So bring, bring that pressure down as you go bigger and you'll be very happy. Right. Well, it's been interesting talking about the evolution of the equipment and with you. I know coming from a mountain bike background, you're maybe more open to a lot of the trends and innovations that have come into the gravel market. I'm particularly curious to talk to you about the dao fork as we've had benedict on the show. If you episodes ago, and it was really fascinating conversation, so I'd love to get your take on writing that Lao fork on your bike and what you see the advantages are and if you think more and more people are going to start going down that route. Yeah. The amount of, uh, questions I get about that fork are, it's incredible. So three years ago at dirty Kanza, I used one of the, one of the Lao grit forks, I put it on an open and didn't really get to ride it much before the race, but then just absolutely loved it in the race itself. Um, and then I had an opportunity this year to ride the truth, the true grit, so the frame and fork that they build, um, and couldn't be happier. It's a to 30 millimeter, you know, amount of travel using just the carbon leaf springs and you know, it. I first went in and thinking like, okay, this is really going to just kill it on the washboard chatter stuff. And it does. If it improves that for sure. But where I was really surprised was when I'm getting into a little more extreme terrain and like big rain roads going sideways and you're hitting those things. Then normally with a rigid fork you kind of hit, you know, hit that, hit a ring, right, going sideways and your wheel front wheel wants to deflect and go sideways. But with that fork it's just enough to keep your front end pointed the right direction. And I feel that it actually gives me not only night ride a little bit faster, but I have more control. So I'll take, I'll take better control. Went on some sketchy, sketchy gravel road descent. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, did you find that over the longer events that you were less fatigued using the fork? Yeah, I, I, I would have to say so it's like all those, you know, the, the micro vibration that we deal with over the course of, even if it's, you know, a 100 mile ride, but especially as you start stretching out when you're on the bike all day long, like just reducing that in your shoulders, your neck. Um, all of that. It really, you know, I think in an event like dirty Kanza, you don't really find out your weak links until you're in something like that. It just really stretches you and this year at decay like I, you know, I should do upper body workouts and stuff like that, but I don't. I'm lazy and you know, it, it's pretty amazing. Like how well my upper body held up and I really do attribute it a lot too just to that front end. Right now you and I were both down in big bear at the spandex stampede event, which had a decent amount of climbing for the mileage. Yeah. How do you feel about the fork when climbing, obviously it adds about a pound of weight to the bike. Do you feel like the advantages overall kind of outweigh that weight? Yeah, I think so. Especially especially on gravel. I'm just, you know, the advantages I just was talking about, I mean my bike is still only like 17 and a half or 18 pounds and so that, that seems plenty of light to me. Um, and for, you know, I do most of my climbing, seated, climbing so I have no idea that that work is even, they're going up hill, you know, you're not getting any bobbing out of it if, you know, if you stand up a lot and maybe you don't have like really good form and you're kind of bouncing on the friend, like I could see that bothering you a little bit, but I think you've kind of work on your, if you felt that you kind of work on your form and you actually improve your climbing form, just by realizing if you're bouncing, you know, if you're bouncing around and wasting energy. Yeah, that makes sense. What about for our listener who rides a little bit more on the road in their gravel bike journeys? How, how does the fork feel on the road and you know, is it, is it really for someone who is writing mostly off road? I would say like if you're, if you're predominantly on the road, you know, there's just the benefits of it obviously diminish. Um, but you know, I raised it Belgian waffle ride this year and is a first time I'd ever actually written a bike other than a traditional road bike. And I on it, I really thought like I would give up, I'd really be given stuff up on some of the climbing, some of the rope climbing parts in the group and I was astonished. It was a great setup. I ran 30 see tires on it and the bike was so capable, like anytime we hit the dirt it was just like, I felt like I was at such an advantage. That's really interesting. That's really good feedback. I think. I'm glad to hear that. I do think, and I've mentioned this before on the podcast that to a degree gravel sort of aligns itself with road biking than mountain biking. And as such we've got this sort of preconceived notion as to what the bike should look like and how we should dress, et cetera. And I think the leading edge companies are trying to blow that away and really make people think about, well, how does the bike perform? Let's forget about the heritage of maybe why this sector of the sport started to evolve and I think the law fork is a prime example of that, that it probably is faster and a lot of respects for a lot of the terrain that people are riding and definitely racing on, but there's a little bit of resistance to people grabbing hold of it and putting on their bikes. Yeah, I agree. I mean the road, the road side, you know, traditional bunch for sure. Um, you know, you look at how long it's taken, you know, just for disc brake acceptance, um, that's kind of a shame because guess what, so many people can benefit greatly from disc brakes even if those people aren't. The pros like that shouldn't matter. Um, so yeah, I would say, you know, mountain bikers and even track athletes like triathletes or read their apt to try anything that they think is going to improve performance. Like they'll, they'll give anything a go. So it is cool to see like the gravel niche and like people not afraid to just, you know, try new things and even just like the spandex event like you were talking about in big bear, like I saw a number of labs out there and I, I think that there's going to be more and more, you know, they're gonna keep selling those bikes just as the word gets out. What, what an advantage it is. Yeah, definitely. And I mean obviously we've seen a couple of other fork manufacturers dip their toe in the water and I think life is going to lead the way, but others will follow. Yeah. Now, uh, now they just need a good proper post with suspension. It will be sad. I was just going to move onto dropper posts because it's been something that's come up a few times on the podcast and I, I'm, I'm curious about it for sure. You're definitely gonna see one on my bike in the coming months as I test it out and try to understand its affects more. Yeah. I have yet to use the dropper posts on and gravel bike. And, and to be honest, I probably only use the dropper post on a mountain bike a couple of times, so it's kind of new. It's new territory for me, but I, you know what, like I'm totally open for, for running one because I liked, I liked to do like some true mountain biking, all my gravel bike. I think it's, it's really fun. And you know, a dropper posts would be an advantage in situations. Like I tell people like I can get a rush, I can get an adrenaline rush, all my gravel bike in dirt going 15 miles an hour, 20 miles an hour. And if I wash out in a wreck, you know, doing something technical, I'm probably not going to get hurt to get an adrenaline rush on the road bike. I have to be going really fast when things go wrong. Like it really hurts if I can, if I can push the limits on the gravel bike, like that's, that's totally fine. I'm probably going to walk away if things go wrong. Yeah, exactly. I keep keep messaging the guys over at thesis spike who are specking a bike with a dropper post or at least as an option and I'm always saying like, oh, I just wrote this really steep terrain on my bike and I could definitely use the dropper post and Randall, the designer over there. I will always come back to me saying, yeah, you'd love it there, but trust me, it wouldn't just be there. It'll be when you're descending on the road when you're doing lots of things that you wouldn't think of. When you finally have one on your bike. You'll discover that your speed and safety can both go up and it's. I'm really curious to test that hypothesis. Yeah, that's. That's a good idea. Someone it afford dirty cans and kind of. When we already knew that the aero bars, we're going to be a big deal this year at some of these events and someone was trying to figure out how they could make a dropper post where there was just maybe a centimeter of difference so that when they're in the aero bars and up on the nose of the saddle, they could use the post to go off a centimeter and then when they're out of the, out of the aero bars and you know, just on the hoods are the top how they could use the dropper to go down to the centimeter. So I think we're gonna see there's gonna be a lot more kind of going on in this world, you know, tech advantages, some for just having fun like a dropper post. And then like still race geeks that are like looking to get every, you know, be able to get a little bit faster. It's, it's fun because, you know, it's like mountain biking in the early nineties, you know, we're just, everyone's just throwing stuff out there and we'll see what sticks. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And I want to transition a little bit away from equipment and just talk about racing and the community and the events. And that's a great segue because I think both you and I share this vision of gravel as it is now as being similar mountain biking back then where, you know, you still saw people camping before the race. It was always a festival atmosphere. So talk a little bit about that and maybe some of the events that you've done and how community is playing a role in, in gravel and how you're enjoying it personally. Yeah. So I mean honestly it, it takes me back to when I first got into mountain biking when I was 14 and you know, I'd go to the races with my dad and we got an rv just to go to the races and camp out because all of our friends did that too. So we'd be at Keysville classic, you know, the night before the race at the bonfire and all the vehicles circled around. Same with camping out there for a week. And then, you know, when I transitioned into the road and did the pro racing thing, like there was, there was none of that like you had no, there just wasn't. There just wasn't really a community. You went out and you did your job, you know, that was great who hopefully you have a good race if not you move onto the next one. But with gravel now it really takes me back to when I first fell in love with bikes and you know, that was that community part of it and being out there and you make a full weekend out of it, then you're just hanging out with people like that's such a huge draw of it. And I think that's something, you know, as mountain biking has declined and you know, people got into road racing. That's really been a, a big, you know, kind of big missing piece or cycling. Um, now we, now we have it again and there's so many. There's like events like grinder or where it isn't just a one day ride, it's a full weekend event and Grapes of Wrath which is put on by the guys that put on a rock cobbler. Again, a full weekend event where is not just encouraged, you know, for you to be there the whole weekend. It's kind of mandatory is what is what it's all about. So I, you know, I hope that there's more and more events like that and you know, Rebecca's prime died but which is coming up, you know, Labor Day weekend. That's, that's a perfect example again of being out there and Rebecca has created just like this community of people to go experience her favorite writing and guess what, it's turned out that like people want that because these events that have just been nothing but growth. Yeah. I think today's gravel athletes are looking for new terrain. They're looking for all the community and you know, post race barbecues and camping that you're describing. And to me it is like my experience with mountain biking as well. I remember signing up for mountain bike events primarily because I knew someone had taken the time to create a course in a different part of the country that I could get to and I'd get to go experience some new terrain without overthinking the navigation piece of it. Yeah, no, it's true. And I think even better with what's fun with gravel and you know, I hope we don't start seeing like a lot like mountain biking where you do like four laps or something like that. I, I see gravel is like this exploration and this adventure, so going out and doing one big ass flap, whether it's 80 miles or 200 miles, whatever it is, 50 miles, as long as you're seeing something really cool and you're getting to experience whatever this area is and what's special and unique to the area. I'm, that's, that's really, those are the events that really intrigued me and it turns out like you can be in Nebraska or Kansas or bakersfield and on the dirt bike there is so much cool stuff to see out there. Like on the road road, the road surface, you can ride through some great areas, but road surface never changes and I think with gravel, the gravel events, you know, one of the, one of the key things is that you really never know what you're getting in each area with the type of terrain you're gonna get. And that's just a whole different. Just a whole different element that makes you have to stay really checked in and engaged with what you're doing and very much in the moment. Yeah, totally agree. And for the middle of the pack guys such as myself, just finding those different areas to ride in and the unique adventure of being all over the map. Like I was down at the old growth classic this weekend down by Santa Cruz and I hiked on some of that terrain and written some of the legal stuff, but I'd never kind of created this massive loop. So there was times I had no idea where I was, but it just kept plugging away and enjoy the fact that I was just discovering this terrain in a different way and give big props to that course designer because you just created a hard loop that, that tested the equipment across the board, depending on which end of the spectrum you are on. If you had the big fat tires or narrow tires, there are parts of the course that we're going to suit either or. But no one left that course thinking I had the right equipment for every single pedal stroke, which I think is the hallmark of great gravel course design. Yeah, I agree. I think it's, it's, it's pretty fun to like be underbite not all the time but like be in situations where you're like, ah yeah, I, you know, yeah, a mountain bike would be good here. But as a whole, looking at it as the entire course as a whole course, like you know, often the gravel bike is, is the ideal setup and that, you know, the old growth classic like Dallas, like that looks like a special event that they put together and that area has like, you know, you have the grasshopper adventure series up there and like they're. So there's so many great, like Kinda grassroots style events to choose from. Yeah, absolutely. I'm stoked to see how it's grown all over the country really. I keep hearing about new events thinking, oh I want to go down and do that. And I was stoked that I would just happen stance took me down to southern California and as able to do that big bear event because previously the only other one I'd done was gravel mob, which I totally love. Yeah. Yeah. Gravel. Mom's a great one in. Oh, hi there. And unfortunately like all of that, all those mountains burned, you know, this past this past year. So hopefully they, hopefully they're still able to put on the event, you know, and it, it won't be maybe quite as beautiful, but that just, that whole area is, is really spectacular up above Ohio. Yeah. I just actually got an email alert from the guys at Peloton magazine and it's definitely on. Oh good. Then yeah, that's, that's great to hear. They do a good job with it. I've done it a couple times and it's so hard day in the saddle, that's for sure. Yeah, it's another fun one. Soup to nuts I think. Yeah. Yeah. And then like, you know, as, as you're talking about you finish up, give high fives, grab a beer, grab Tacos, everyone's hanging out for hours afterward, Sharon stories and no one is eager to get out of there. Um, so pretty special vibe. Absolutely. So I'm curious as someone who's raced a lot of these events, at least kind of on the west coast, the events are going a couple of different directions. You Got Short, fast, punchy events and then you've got other events exploring kind of the ultra distance side of the sport. Like with the Dk xl this year, what's your reaction to, to what's going on in terms of the length of course race, the race is, etc. I, I really liked that. There's so many optIons now. The basically, you know, lIke dirty kanza scares the crap out of me and so that makes me want to train and be able to like be as prepared as possible just to get through it, but I don't want, I don't want that feeling more than once or twice a year. So then to have opportunities for something like spandex stampede where it's 40 to 45 miles and you can be done in two and a half, three hours and then just kind of hanging out. I Think those are like, that's kind of how I like to do it. Like mixing stuff like spandex, um, rock cobbler. I think it's really cool that all of the sudden we have opportunity to kind of pick and choose. Whereas five years ago it was like, whoa, what do you know? There's a gravel event in California. Cool, let's go do it. Now we have, you know, probably 20 good choices, you know, over the course of the summer. Um, so they, they all kind of, they all speak to me in different ways and you know, I probably am not going to be signing up for dk xl anytime soon. I think, you know, I've told jim come into the promoter like 200 and you know, the course is actually 207 miles for the, for the normal dk. That's more than enough for me. So I think I kind of tapped out at that 200 mile distance personally. Yeah. I don't blame you at all. I think 200 is a monster effort, one of which full disclosure, I've never done an in any circumstances you're adding 200 miles. So anybody who crosses that finish line I think is amazing. I do think on the xcel side is going to be interesting because the quote unquote racers that you hear about it, it's a different type of character that's going to want to do those, that type of mileage. I mean you're kind of getting into tour divide territory more than kind of one day bike race territory. Yeah, it's really interesting. And just to see like who is successful out there? Like Rebecca Rush, you know, she, I think ended up for overall out of men and women and you know, just dominated the women's field. Whereas she was up against a couple women that maybe in the 200 mile distance at this point could have eat rebecca. So it's just as, as you stretch the mile out, almost double the amount of miles, like the different types of athletes emerge that, you Know, seems crazy to say 200 miles is too short for them. But it's kinda kinda how it is. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean it goes back to my original arrival in gravel. I credit more towards the notion of bike packing, then gravel itself. I just sort of became fascinated in those overnight and multi day and month long races that people were doing and started following them and looking at the equipment. And that got me thinking just a lot more about adventure in my writing and something that was sorely needed in my life as a cyclist at that moment in time. And I kind of got drawn in and I'd never done any of those bike packing races. But that's what got my toe in the water and started becoming so passionate about gravel riding in general. Yeah, that's, that's cool. So interestingly enough, I, like I would say I started on the other side of the spectrum. My, it was the racing side that brought me into it and you know, I wanted to go, I want to do, you know, when belgian waffle ride and, and when crusher and the tuscher and I wanted to win dirty kanza and it took me, took me a few years to, you know, of course I would still love to go when dirty kanza that's just not reality now. But I would say early on it was, that was kind of my main. That was my biggest goal and my first dirty kanza ever. I went into it and I was so incredibly fit. Just basically did pro mile leading up to it and really wanted to win it and had my rear derailleur break off 25 miles in. and it was like at that moment I was like, okay, well I'm not racing races over how can I finish? And I was on the side of the road for an hour, rigging up a single speed and did the next 175 miles on a single speed and was able to finish. And the real kind of eyeopening experience was riding with the people I was around, which were mid to back of the pack typewriters. Um, because I was really limited on how fast I could go because of my, my gear ratio and the people out there were like. So I went into it thinking, okay, I just want to dominate. I want to win this thing. And these other people, it was such, such a different task for them. They were, they were literally just trying to survive to get through it. And really from then on really changed my thinking and going, you know, going to these events and look at the bigger picture. and it's not just about racing and trying to go fast, it's, it's such a marginal part of the day. And so I always try and remind myself and I, you know, I, I can't win many races anymore, but still like that, that's an experience that like just really remains with me and I'm really fortunate. I feel fortunate for having that happened to me because it, it really just opened my eyes to everything around me. Yeah. I imagine it really shaped your professional perspective in working with brands at this point that just to have that visceral understanding of like, hey, these guys, they don't really care if someone passes them. They don't really care if they pass anybody else. They're just really. they're out there for the adventure. And the adventure includes everything between the start line and the finish line. Yep. And, and they're the real, like they're the ones that need to be celebrated at 1:00 AM, you know, a dirty cans or any event like that. That's kind of, you know, the mid back, the people, they're working way harder. They have such such a harder day than the people that are finishing in the top three, top 10. They are what they go through out there just to will themselves to the finish of some of these big long events. It's really inspiring. Yeah, I totally agree with you. totally agree wIth you and I think those sentiments are really wide. There's such a huge opportunity for the industry with the sport of gravel because we can really. the event organizers continue to create the community atmosphere and the great adventure courses. I think people come in and will continue to come into the sport and discover that it is really this gem that is right there at their fingertips and right outside a lot of people's doors are these back roads and dirt roads that can show them parts of their community that they never even imagined before. Yeah. It's just. It's just fun. Like for me, It's brought to open the door. Even though I've lived in the same area for eight years. when I go out on the gravel bike, it's like I have all new rides available to me and I don't want to get like negative and talk about cars and drivers, but when I'm, when I'm on a dirt road or a trail somewhere, I don't have to worry about anything going on around me. I can just focus on my ride and enjoying and kind of let my, you know, a little bit of peace of mind and you know, if I'm going out in the middle of the day for a lunch ride, that kinda decompressor it's great. Just going in and hitting dirk. I don't have anything else to think about. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of peace to be had out there on the gravel trails. So neil, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate all the time and your perspective on the sport and your continued commitment to growing it. Yeah, it's, as I told you before, I, I can talk about driving all day, so it's really fun. It's, you know, the scene is brought me, kind of renewed, my passion for writing, so it's great to be on the podcast. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. ThankS for coming in. All right man. That was great. I think we've got some good material. Good deal. Yeah. Well thanks again for thinking of me. I'm stoked to, uh, to be a part of this.
Episode Links: Trek Checkpoint Trek Instagram Episode Transcript: Dave, thanks for joining us on the podcast this week. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I always like to start off the conversation by understanding a little bit more about you as a rider. So what's your background as a writer? I've been riding a long, long time. It all started when I was a little kid and I became a bmx through BMX. I kinda got into road a little bit and then around age 16 to 20, sort of took a break from riding because I had a car and I got interested in chasing girls and it wasn't particularly good at that. So around 20 a I got back into riding through mountain bike and this was around 1990 and uh, I just fell hard for it and ever since then have been been somewhat of a fanatical rider, a mountain bike racer, a little bit of road, a lot more cyclocross lately. Uh, and then I've kind of gotten more into an exploration bent in the last few years through um, through gravel and, and bike packing and stuff like that. Great. And how did you find your way to being an employee of track? Oh, interesting story. I was actually chasing a girl and I caught her. She wanted a teaching fellowship here in Wisconsin and invited me to come along. I couldn't say no. And knowing that I'd need a job, I sent a resume to trek. I had already been in retail for some years at that time and got the job here at the time it was supposed to be a one year deal and now nearly 14 years later we are happily married and living in Madison, Wisconsin. Perfect. And how did your role evolve? Did you start out in product management or are you doing something else at the company? I entered the company through the sales department is an inside rep, which is the inroad for many employees here at Trek. We kind of call it the farm and then from there, we often move on to other positions. Once I decided to stay in Wisconsin, I knew I wanted to work in a product. I just didn't think there'd be anything cooler than getting a chance to actually make stuff. Absolutely at a scale that Trek operates on, I'm sure those product decisions are really thrilling to make knowing the number of riders that you impact with any given product For sure we reach a lot of riders, but at the same time it's stressful because the, these decisions are impactful. They're important. And your answering the needs of a very, very broad range of people and dealers and, and yeah, things have to be done carefully. Did you find yourself more in off road model, product management or a road along the way? I am product manager in the city bikes division and city bikes is kind of the catchall for everything else. This means bikes like fitness hybrids, leisure bikes, our electric. And then in recent years we have taken on the adventure bikes which I am solely responsible for and that includes our venerable 420 touring bike, uh, in the nine slash 2011, 20 off road touring and back bike packing bikes. And then most recently I got the opportunity to develop the Checkpoint gravel bike, which is what we're talking about today. Yeah, that's really interesting as you described, kind of your personal interest in off road riding and mountain biking and later how like for many of us that evolved to just general adventure riding, it's interesting. Professionally I imagined to see all that come together and finally get a crack at a gravel bike on behalf of Trek. Yeah, it's a pretty awesome responsibility and opportunity and seeing how even now at gravel seems like a very big, well established category, but it's really kind of the wild west. I mean there's still a huge variety of things and concepts being developed in ideas about how they're being used on the requests we get from our dealers and various regions about what they they'd like to see are all over the map. It's super exciting in that way. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because I personally have seen my interest in gravel come from a lot of different directions. I do like you have a pretty solid mountain biking background, but my interest in gravel really came from the more adventurous side of cycling. I started becoming really interesting in the idea of bike packing and following those ultra endurance races like the tour divide and things like that and while I only done a minimal amount of bike packing myself, I saw the appeal of it and I started to see the appeal of being less speed orientated and more adventure oriented and you know, those were some of the trends that led me to become passionate about gravel cycling. And, and to your point, as I've explored the sport more and more and talked to more and more people, it's fairly clear that the definition of what a gravel ride is means something totally different to someone in northern California versus Wisconsin versus Vermont versus Florida. So I'm curious to explore that a little bit with you as someone who is tasked with defining what the gravel category may look like and bringing all these trends together. What was that thought process like at Trek? We try and approach things like this in a clean slate manner. So involved lots of phone interviews with our partners and dealers who had been requesting this from us. I'm readily admit we're a little late to the party, but when I embarked on the research through that and through traveling to markets where I knew a gravel was, was, and in some places almost the entire cycling market, that's what I found. I found that the spectrum was really, really broad and there wasn't a single attribute that everybody wanted a really what bubbled up from it all was that even within an individual, there is not a single gravel ride. I'm a good example is the dirty Kanza 200 is, is the granddaddy of all the gravel race events, but most of them in that area wouldn't tell you that that's the kind of riding they do all the time. They don't go out on three huge gravel centuries a week. They ride all different ways. They, they ride sometimes short and fast rides that behave much more like a road ride would, except on gravel. Uh, some of them are, are into bike packing. So it's even within an individual user, we're finding people who want to have a variety of experiences. And uh, yeah, that was, that was a big eyeopener for us. Yeah, absolutely. I think that that is how I look at gravel and I think a lot of the people I've spoken to look at it in the same way. And to your point, I've been a Trek owner on a number of different occasions and I remember a couple of years back seeing the Boone as being the only thing sort of that fit loosely my desire in the gravel space. But it wasn't quite there yet. So I was surprised frankly that last year we didn't have a bike. Like the checkpoint come out from Trek. Yeah. And there was a little pressure, you know, it quickly went from something we in our product department or asking to do to something that, that we really needed to do with emergency. The Boone is a great race gravel platform. But as, as I was just saying, when you look out over the spectrum of riders and how they're being used, a race, cyclocross bike just isn't quite versatile enough. It doesn't have the kinds of mounting options that riders wanted that generally doesn't have the tire clearance. And I think that's true of a lot of companies cyclocross bikes. We had this big surge in popularity in that discipline and that meant everybody just started offering a very race focused bike. But you know, in the old days a cyclocross bike was more versatile bike, wasn't it? Yup. Absolutely. So let's talk about the Checkpoint. It's a really exciting offering from Trek in the gravel space and it sounded like, it sounds like you distilled a lot of different things into this one concept that was going to be a switchblade of sorts for a bike in your garage. Let's talk a little bit about that and, and the things that were built into it. We have a huge toolbox, will have developed technologies and proprietary items. I'm going into it. I knew there wasn't going to be a reinvention of the wheel necessary here. We quickly distill the list of attributes and features that the riders needed. A, one of them was huge tire clearance. Another one was versatility and mounting options, and then another one was stability and that one we had to be really careful with. Um, so in looking at that we quickly realized that you didn't need much more off road capability than was offered in a world cup winning cyclocross bike. So we began with the Boones geometry. We added a little bit of comfort to it with a little bit more stack height and a little bit more bottom bracket drop. We're talking a matter of millimeters of bottom bracket, drop the clutch feature for the stability though is the stranglehold dropout. With that we were allowed to build a bike that has the same tight rear triangle is erased. Cyclocross bike but can be slid out 15 millimeters into a much longer rear end, which adds stability in that way. A rider doesn't have to choose one over the other. Uh, the bike within the short position rides really fast and lively and it's fun to ride. But then when you stretch out that rear end, it gets really stable, which is what these, uh, you know, Middle America, Kansas, Oklahoma, gravel riders really look for in a gravel path. I know there's a number of more attributes that you're going to talk about other bike, but I'd love to drill into the Stranglehold because it's a really unique and I think from an engineering perspective of very complicated part of the bike, because the ability to move that dropout, I'm noticing that you also need to move the disc brake mount alongside of that obviously to, to line it up. It seems difficult to achieve. Well, it's actually one of those toolbox features I mentioned. We developed that originally for the Stash, a big fat mountain bike. And then our brethren in the road group adapted it to the Crockett, a cyclocross platform, which in its own way has a little bit of a gravel bent. So the pieces for this already existed and what it entails is a couple of precision machined dropout inserts. And the one on the left side in particular is the axle directly to the brake mounts. So when you moved them, they moved together in alignment is not disrupted between the two, so it's actually a fairly easy adjustment to make and then the design of it is so robust that when it's tightened down there's no creaking, no sliding, and that was another area where they just knew they had to nail it. Yeah, it's really interesting. For my listeners who haven't seen a picture of it, I encourage you to go check it out because I just think it's a fascinating piece of engineering there. I noticed you've also gone with that, the dropped drive side chains day and a lot of different mounts, which I think is interesting and important. Can you talk a little bit about those decisions as well? Absolutely. So the drops stay on the drive side is about the only practical solution to address the problem of road drive trains. Gravel bikes are still designed around road drive trains, which by nature are designed around skinny tires and wheels. We wanted a great big tire. We wanted relatively short chain stays and when you start cramming all that stuff together, things start to bump into each other. So one way that we relieved that clearance is by doing the asymmetric dropped stay, which creates a little bit more tire clearance on that drive side of the tire. The mounting features, the little water bottle mounts in particular, what kind of a happy accident. The design engineer on this project, his name is Travis Brown, not the famous racer, Travis Brown. He had this idea that he wanted to be able to fit three water bottles in the front inside of the, uh, main triangle by putting an extra amount high on the main triangle and then mounting the lower bottle as low as possible. And then the bottle on the seat tube goes up. Uh, I thought it was a pretty ingenious idea, but my research had shown up. Lots and lots of writers are using frame bags and half frame bags. I said, that sounds great, but we can't have a water bottle encroaching on the bag space. And we went back and forth and back and forth. And then he quickly realized that all they had to do is poke another couple of holes in the frame, create a couple of mounting options so that seat tube bottle can be mounted in a high position or a low position and now we can accommodate both needs with a simple a movement of the bottle cages and that'll work on any of the bikes from 56 and up. The carbon bikes have the upper set of mounts on the smaller sizes and even though you can't fit a bottle there, the mount is available for, for whatever a rider would like to do. We know there's a big diy spirit among these riders out there and guys are coming up with their own solutions for things. And then you've also got on the top, top of the frame bag and some stuff on the fork as well, right? That's correct. The fork mount will accept the bag and rack system we developed for the light touring bike called the seven slash 20 as well as conventional front racks. We're seeing more and more of that. I think people are starting to realize that losing weight on the front of a bike for light touring adds stability and, and makes the bike a little easier to manage, handled a little bit more in a balanced manner. So we've got the mounts there. Uh, the mount on the top tube are for just, as you pointed out, a triathlons, triathletes, use these a lot. It's kind of like a good position to put your feed, you know, if you want to put energy gels or what have you. And we're seeing a kind of an ever expanding universe of, of accessories to go there as well. Yeah, it's kind of a funny thing. I ride my bike on the road as well and I was out this morning, riding with a road riding friend of mine and he was sort of poking fun at me for having that bag there. And I said, listen, you know what? I'm riding off road. I find it really convenient to not have to reach around to my back to grab food at, you know, on the go. And I always get a little bit of crap from my roadie friends when I show up with it, but it is very, very practical. Yeah, it's very practical. You have it there and instead of rooting around in a pocket you can't see. You can look down and see what your inventory is, how much you've eaten. The gravel events that are popping up all over the place are incredibly grueling. So any of these, any of these comfort adders or big deal to, to the riders who do this kind of riding and racing. Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, that's a whole other area of conversation I think is the wide variety of events that are cropping up from ultra endurance events. Like I'm dirty Kanza as you mentioned to all these different types of challenges that I think are really pushing the potential of the types of adventures you can have on these kinds of bikes, which I think is really invigorating for the sport. It really is. And what I kind of brought back to the organization from the research is that in a lot of ways this feels very much like mountain biking. Did in the nineties, you know, there's a lot of discovery happening, there's a lot of a rider driven innovation happening. I know there's, there's been, if you follow the chat boards, there's some people out there that, that think this is an industry driven trend and it's exactly the opposite of the rider is driving this trend and driving the innovation and the demand to create things and they are rewarding companies who make the things that they want. It's not enough for you to say that my cyclocross bike can be written on gravel. They want a product that's optimized for the experience they want to have. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. Especially your analogy about a mountain biking in the early nineties. I remember that time there was a lot of innovation around equipment and as far as the racing went, I was in the mid Atlantic at that point when I saw a new race on the calendar. It was really about finding new terrain and having a camping experience and just having a good time at the event versus like a very hard core race scene. And I really enjoyed that and I absolutely see the parallels in the gravel racing scene. I think many of us are looking at events as part of our vacations and saying like, oh, it'd be great to go to Rebecca's private Idaho or the crusher and the Tuscher to do a big event, but a experience new terrain and push our equipment will work in those environments for sure. And another aspect, and I didn't think of this at the time when mountain biking exploded, but one of the greatest about mountain biking is it gave people an opportunity to go cycling without worrying about automotive traffic. And we know that deep down that's kind of what built up gravel. It's scenic and it's rugged and it's beautiful, but in a lot of the places where this is so popular, it happens because these are the most safe roads to ride. From a traffic perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Even here in the bay area in northern California, I love being able to ride up the dirt, climbs and then descend on the roads. I find myself able to piece together rides where I'm just interacting with so many, so less so much less traffic that the, you know, the day out there just feels safer in some ways for sure. And it's much more serene. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've covered a little bit about the type of writer you had in mind when you conceived of the Checkpoint. It's curious and Trek lineup, because you do have bikes closely on either side of this, whether it's the Boone platform or that Domane gravel disc, who is the ideal rider for the checkpoint and what would push them either way towards a, a boone or gravel? A Domane gravel disc. So the short answer is everybody. Checkpoint is a, is hugely popular already. I'm comparing it to a bike, like the, uh, the Domane gravel or the boon. It kind of picks up where they leave off. Those bikes are a little bit more specific. A Domane gravel has kind of an interesting genesis that we've, we've made the Domane for several years and it's one of our most successful road platforms and it has always been capable as a multisurface bike or a gravel bike. It's not quite what you'd want for something like Kansas, you know, where the gravels it's exceptionally harsh and rough, but for the gravel and crushed limestone trail and all of that stuff that, that zigzags all across the country, it's fantastic. Um, so we built a version of it with the Schwab one tire basically to demonstrate its capability. Our dealers had these bikes on their racks with a slick tire, but the lesson learned there is that it's, it's not enough to say the bike can do it. The rider comes into the store and they want to see the bike ready to do the job they want it to do. So we did that bike and we actually did it while the Checkpoint development was taking place. And then knowing that Checkpoint was going to come down the pike this spring and really answer those needs. Uh, and then as we spoke about earlier, the Boone has evolved into a full on race weapon. It is the, it's an excellent, excellent race cyclocross bike, but it lacks the mounts a, it does not have the kind of tire clearance that these riders are demanding. so we wanted to make sure we offered a package that just had it all and, and again, back to write or type one rider. We found a lot in our research was what I like to call the one hook rider. They're not all in the bike industry and they don't all have a garage full of bikes. Some people have one hook to hang a bike from and they want to choose a bike that does as much as possible if it's going to be there on the bike. Where do you start seeing the limitations of the checkpoint is? It is my one bike and I'm going out on a fast paced group road ride and I changed the tires to something more road appropriate. What kind of shortcomings do I start to see in that model? Really nothing more than weight. It is a little bit heavier. It's no Emondo, so you, you're not going to want to climb in the rockies is as much as you would like to on a specific lightweight bike, but that's really it. It's geared like a road bike. It's got a little bit broader range, but that's exactly what I do with mine. I have three sets of wheels with different tires on them for, for different flavors and I can get up in the morning and put a set of wheels with a 28 c road tire on in and hang with the fast group ride without any trouble. And then I can also leverage some gravel tires and do what we like to call the urban traipse where we do a sort of road ride connecting some of the local municipal mountain bike trails and whatnot. And you can do anything on it. I'm going to race it in the cross season this coming season it, it's uh, it's extremely capable. I mean it's not a hardcore single track mountain bike, but is definitely the most capable drop bar bicycle we've ever made. I think. Yeah, I think riders are often surprised when they do invest in a, in a good quality gravel bike that it can play in a lot of different areas. I'm like, you, I, I swap out a 700 set. We'll set with slicks on it to road ride my gravel bike and yes, I feel like I'm maybe losing a little bit of performance in the climbs, but frankly it's usually my legs that are hurting me more than the bike and it does everything you needed to do and I certainly advocate for anybody out there considering buying a new bike to consider gravel bikes as something that, that can do it all. Yeah, absolutely and as people here inside the organization and outside of have gotten the bikes, I've heard unprompted from a number of people and this is the only road bike I need, you know, if they're not hardcore road racers, they're finding that this bike will, will do anything on the road. They need a road bike to do with all of that added capability. How do you see the category evolving for Trek? I think the reception of the bike has been super strong. It's clearly a well thought out platform and everything I've read suggests it's a great riding bike. What do you think that means for tracking the future of this category? Well, we kind of have a script in the way we do in and create lines of bikes. I could already tell you that there's some people that say this thing is awesome. Where's the Slr, you know, and they want a bike that's two pounds lighter and, and has a much more race specific bent a product like the OPEN UP are already out there that are, that are essentially our Amanda type concept built into a gravel platform. And then I think there's gonna be some other demand for, for something that's even a little grittier, a little, you know, a little more rough and tumble, something a little closer to drop our mountain bike that, uh, maybe even accepts more tire. we're looking into all of that and, and you know, we're aware of our place in the spectrum of offerings. Most of our dealers these days carry a vast majority of their product in their stores with us, so we need to be sure that we're introducing products that work for all of them so that it's not confusing because every time you introduce a new product, your, your customers have to think, well, how long, how is this going to live in my store? How am I gonna, what am I going to put it next to? Um, so, so we'll, we'll proceed carefully with this line of bikes is really, really solid from the get go. And then from here we will, uh, we will see what we can do to, to make it even more successful. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, it's an extremely well thought out bike from everything you've built into it that I've seen. It looks like a great platform. I'm sure as you said, you'll get people wanting the higher end version of that bike very readily. It is curious to think about the more rugged side of that market and that's the one where I feel like there's a lot of personal preference and choice about what you intend to do. That's going to be complicated, I would imagine, as a product designer to to figure out what are the attributes of that more ruggedized spike in. Is there a large enough market to you make it interesting for, for a company like Trek for sure, and we pondered this even in the development of Checkpoint though, one of the biggest questions that came up was do we accommodate 650B or not? And the reason in that case, the reason we chose not to is we looked at our history with mountain bikes. We've got some recent history with 27.5 wheel sizes. The market demanded that we offered lots of things that way, but the riders quickly figured out what we thought we already knew, which was that the two nine or we'll just rolls over things better. We think it's going the same way in gravel. Uh, there are some good reasons to run six slash 50 DB. But at the core of it all, we believed that it was because there just weren't good offerings in, in 700 c in the kinds of widths and treads. And that's changing rapidly. So we decided we would stay with that. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. It's been a frequent part of conversations I've had on this podcast about 650b wheels. I happen to enjoy them here in my home terrain in Marin county simply because I ride a lot of very mountain bike oriented terrain. So having that additional tire volume really make sense for me, but I'm the first to acknowledge that in other territories they wouldn't make sense whatsoever and particularly if you were a less aggressive ride or potentially than I am on the mountain bike style stuff. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, it's definitely got some benefits. Another issue with large diameter wheels is you add the wheel, then you add the tire and all of a sudden, like we talked about with the drops state, thanks. Start bumping into each other. So making really small bikes is a bigger challenge. Gear range. For instance, when you go to a much larger tire, you're actually having an effect on your final drive. So thankfully a Shimano has come out with some broader cassettes and I think we'll continue to see that happen, you know, it's, it's driven not just by gravel but by road people are always looking for better climbing gears. Uh, but yeah, in the here and now, what we're seeing now is his tire companies are taking the risks and they're making a really good assortments of off road capable gravel tires and 700 seat. I'm like, we rate the bike to fit a 45. We put a 45 generously. So there's, there's a lot of stuff you can do out there now. Yeah. And I'm actually interested in Shimano as new clutch derailleurs for the roads, like the gravel side because I think that's going to make a big difference when you're running a multiple chain rings in, in chain slap, etc. Sure, sure. And in my opinion, that'S been a long time coming. I've, I've seen the value of it for a long time. When I started racing cyclocross several years ago, I even hacked a mountain bike derailleurs. It's ram system together because I saw the value of a clutch derailleurs for chain management. They're A. I think that's going to. I think that's going to be a big one. You know, it's going to help chain management. A broader good ranges are going to be easier to manage with something like that. yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. David, I wanted to thank you for the conversation. I really learned a lot. It was great to understand a little bit more about how track is approaching the category and to drill in a little bit more about the checkpoint, who it was built for. So I. have I missed anything in the conversation that you'd like to add? Not that I can think of. We're super excited about it or our customers are excited about it. It seems like it's been very well received, so we're going to keep our foot on the gas. Well, that's awesome. I appreciate the time. Hey, thanks so much for having me.
On the 36 hour eve of Dirty Kanza, Ted catches up with the only male 4-time winner of the event, Dan Hughes. Dan is a father of three stellar young men, owner of the Sunflower Outdoor and Bike shop in Lawrence, KS, and is always up for a good time. Dan is an accurate example of the expression, Dan is the man!
Lelan Dains is the Operations Manager for Dirty Kanza Promotions and is a native of Emporia, KS. After graduating from Emporia State University with a degree in Recreation Management, he spent much of his time time traveling and working in various recreation fields including leading cycling excursions all over the world as the Camp Director for Carmichael Training Systems. When the opportunity arose to return to his hometown and bring his talents to the Dirty Kanza Promotions organization it was a dream come true! What I admire most about Lelan as how he is taking the lead through his position as a co-owner of the world’s premier gravel race to get more kids and families into the sport of gravel riding. Lelan has been instrumental forming the Dirty Kanza Youth Cycling Fund and the DK High school race. Beyond bringing life-changing adventure experiences to folks, LeLan spends every free moment with his amazing wife and daughter. This interview was recorded Live from the Buddy Pegs Media booth at the 2018 Sea Otter Classic in Monterey CA. We built this interview series from the title of our newest children’s picture book Taking The Lead that follows our animal characters along a journey to open a local bike shop and inspire their town to ride. We hope you enjoy these personal stories from bike industry executives, non-profit leaders, pro athletes, and families just like yours who are celebrating kids on bikes and inspiring families to get off the couch... and out for a ride. --- Purchase our books, and download the World of Buddy Pegs podcast so you can share the love of bicycling with the kids in your life. Visit your local bike shop, or visit us at BuddyPegs.com. Remember it’s the little moments that create big memories. https://dirtykanza.com/
Rebecca Rusch’s bio says that Rebecca is 'the queen of pain with a heart of gold'. Well, that sums up everything you need to know about this 30 year professional athlete. But if you’re into details, Rebecca is a 7x World Champion in multiple sports, 4x Leadville 100 mtb champion, 3x winner of the Dirty Kanza 200, she summited Mt. Kilamanjaro by bike, holds the record for the fastest ride on the Kokapelli trail, and was recently the first person to ride the entire length of the Ho Chi Min trail which you absolutely need to see for yourself in her inspiring movie Blood Road. But, beyond all that, what I admire most about Rebecca is her unwavering belief in the power of the bicycle to bring out the best in people and communities... and her dedication to bringing new people into the tribe of bikes. So shift into a harder gear, turn up the volume, and join us for this special interview recorded live at the 2018 Sea Otter Classic. This interview was recorded Live from the Buddy Pegs Media booth at the 2018 Sea Otter Classic in Monterey CA. We built this interview series from the title of our newest children’s picture book Taking The Lead that follows our animal characters along a journey to open a local bike shop and inspire their town to ride. We hope you enjoy these personal stories from bike industry executives, non-profit leaders, pro athletes, and families just like yours who are celebrating kids on bikes and inspiring families to get off the couch... and out for a ride. --- Purchase our books, and download the World of Buddy Pegs podcast so you can share the love of bicycling with the kids in your life. Visit your local bike shop, or visit us at BuddyPegs.com. Remember it’s the little moments that create big memories.
Treesbane and Mr. Poooooooooole Jangles compete in The Old Number Eight Charity Disc Golf Tournament at Kanza Park in Ottowa Kansas.
Joining us today are Maria Meyers and Kate Pope Hodel of Sourcelink, a program of the University of Missouri- Innovation Center with a single mission: to make entrepreneurship easier. Maria is Founder Executive Director. Kate is with Special Projects. Together they run the network that builds entrepreneurial communities and stacks the cards in your favor! SourceLink has helped communities transform fragmented economic development organizations into vibrant and vital ecosystems. Developed through support from the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, the U.S. Small Business Administration and the University of Missouri-Kansas City, SourceLink connects resources to each other and to a national network of best practices to help communities create jobs, accelerate business and strengthen local economies. In this episode: - How Maria became known as “the queen of entrepreneurship” throughout the Midwest. - The origins of SourceLink. - The biggest challenges for business owners. - Where business owners are least effective...Most effective...Seeking direction... - How Sourcelink establishes the ecosystems and networks. - Kate is a master of data. What stories do the numbers tell. - How an entrepreneur should find and use data. - What sources and kinds of data are best indicators. - Breakthrough programs with the Kauffman Foundation - How Sourcelink creates a pathway for success with clients. - What Kate learned from the best in the field and thought leaders. - What we can learn from the “on-the-ground implementers”. - Kate's advice for businesses owners to step outside of their comfort zone. Learn more: www.joinsourcelink.com @joinsourcelink (Twitter) @joinsourcelink (Facebook)
Entrepreneurially Thinking: Innovation | Experimentation | Creativity | Business
Joining us today are Maria Meyers and Kate Pope Hodel of Sourcelink, a program of the University of Missouri- Innovation Center with a single mission: to make entrepreneurship easier. Maria is Founder Executive Director. Kate is with Special Projects. Together they run the network that builds entrepreneurial communities and stacks the cards in your favor! SourceLink has helped communities transform fragmented economic development organizations into vibrant and vital ecosystems. Developed through support from the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, the U.S. Small Business Administration and the University of Missouri-Kansas City, SourceLink connects resources to each other and to a national network of best practices to help communities create jobs, accelerate business and strengthen local economies. In this episode: - How Maria became known as “the queen of entrepreneurship” throughout the Midwest. - The origins of SourceLink. - The biggest challenges for business owners. - Where business owners are least effective...Most effective...Seeking direction... - How Sourcelink establishes the ecosystems and networks. - Kate is a master of data. What stories do the numbers tell. - How an entrepreneur should find and use data. - What sources and kinds of data are best indicators. - Breakthrough programs with the Kauffman Foundation - How Sourcelink creates a pathway for success with clients. - What Kate learned from the best in the field and thought leaders. - What we can learn from the “on-the-ground implementers”. - Kate's advice for businesses owners to step outside of their comfort zone. Learn more: @joinsourcelink (Twitter) @joinsourcelink (Facebook)
Joining us today are Maria Meyers and Kate Pope Hodel of Sourcelink, a program of the University of Missouri- Innovation Center with a single mission: to make entrepreneurship easier. Maria is Founder Executive Director. Kate is with Special Projects. Together they run the network that builds entrepreneurial communities and stacks the cards in your favor! SourceLink has helped communities transform fragmented economic development organizations into vibrant and vital ecosystems. Developed through support from the Ewing Marion Kauffman Foundation, the U.S. Small Business Administration and the University of Missouri-Kansas City, SourceLink connects resources to each other and to a national network of best practices to help communities create jobs, accelerate business and strengthen local economies. In this episode: - How Maria became known as “the queen of entrepreneurship” throughout the Midwest. - The origins of SourceLink. - The biggest challenges for business owners. - Where business owners are least effective...Most effective...Seeking direction... - How Sourcelink establishes the ecosystems and networks. - Kate is a master of data. What stories do the numbers tell. - How an entrepreneur should find and use data. - What sources and kinds of data are best indicators. - Breakthrough programs with the Kauffman Foundation - How Sourcelink creates a pathway for success with clients. - What Kate learned from the best in the field and thought leaders. - What we can learn from the “on-the-ground implementers”. - Kate's advice for businesses owners to step outside of their comfort zone. Learn more: www.joinsourcelink.com @joinsourcelink (Twitter) @joinsourcelink (Facebook)
Jérémie KANZA, initiateurs des restaurant BALLS à Paris, est le roi des boulettes. Vous allez le retrouver chez Vincent Malone alors qu'il tente de lui expliquer la recette des boulettes d'agneau tout en vidant consciencieusement sa cave. RESTAURANT BALLS 47, rue Saint Maur et 27, rue de Douai. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
We’re stoked to have an absolute badass joining us. She’s got an impressive resume in the sport of cycling but also an incredible recovery story from a nasty crash in 2010 that left her with a broken pelvis and severe brain injury. Last year she took the win at the 2017 Dirty Kanza 200 to become the Queen of the Kanza and she set a new course record in the process. We’re happy to welcome our first guest of royalty to the podcast, Alison Tetrick!
Wasanga spoke to founder of Sophie A Kanza Foundation which is a fully self-funded youth led organization led by Sophie & Louise Kanza, Congolese sisters who attempts to tackle some social stereotypes in award-winning Joburg short film, the sisters use pan-Africanism to spread love, peace and tolerance in a number of youth volunteerism projects.
Join us Jim and Lelan walk us through the the history, challenges, changes, growth and craziness of the Dirty Kanza 200 gravel grinder race. This is one of the most iconic gravel grinder races across the US with 2200 athletes in total races across the various distances offered. Emporia Kansas may not be known as having the best singletrack, but it has some amazing gravel roads and is quickly becoming one of the primary destinations for endurance mountain biking across the US. Learn more at: http://dirtykanza.com --- About: Dirty Kanza Promotions was founded in 2006 by Jim Cummins, with the assistance of fellow cycling enthusiast Joel Dyke. At that time, gravel grinding was just beginning to catch the interest of the endurance cycling community. However, Jim had grown up in the Flint Hills of east central Kansas and had been riding gravel for decades. Inspired by some of the early gravel grinder events… and convinced the Flint Hills had the best gravel to be found anywhere in the world, Jim and Joel decided to create Dirty Kanza 200. Initially, these two gravel aficionados had no idea the extent to which this whole gravel grinding thing would grow, nor did they give it any real thought. That wasn’t what motivated them. They both simply felt their lives had been enriched through cycling. And DK200 was their attempt to give back to the cycling community. Since then, the popularity of gravel grinding has exploded and is now the fastest growing genre in the cycling industry. The popularity of DK200 has grown too, from 34 participants in 2006, to an anticipated 2,200 riders in 2017. And while that growth has brought with it a few changes to our format and the way we have to manage certain aspects of the event, one thing has remained constant… DK200 is a grass-roots event, organized and managed by folks who are passionate about cycling, and done so for the primary purpose of providing life-enriching cycling experiences for our event participants.
Romanian Show 005 || Radio Show de Juan Rodriguez www.juanrodriguezdj.com Tracklist: 01. Morris - Boca Linda (Tamir Assayag Remix) 02. Mario Bischin - Macarena 03. Crush ft. Alexandra Ungureanu - Where Is The Love 04. Oana Tache - Take Control 05. Kanza ft. Mishi - Summer Never Sleeps Alone 06. Delyno ft. Brock London & Nitro Da Kid - Busy Loving You 07. Alex Cery - Paloma 08. Kamelia vs. DJ Asher & ScreeN - U Can Do It 09. Alandy - Miss You 10. Kaiia vs. Manilla Maniacs - Crazy Love 12. Ligia - Dame Amor 13. Chris Mayer ft. J Yolo - Love Songs 14. Mandinga - Colours 15. Filip - Stronger 16. Dj Layla ft. Sianna - I Am Your Angel 17. Annes - Unde 18. Sllash ft. Robi - Beautiful Life
Romanian Show 005 || Radio Show de Juan Rodriguez www.juanrodriguezdj.com Tracklist: 01. Morris - Boca Linda (Tamir Assayag Remix) 02. Mario Bischin - Macarena 03. Crush ft. Alexandra Ungureanu - Where Is The Love 04. Oana Tache - Take Control 05. Kanza ft. Mishi - Summer Never Sleeps Alone 06. Delyno ft. Brock London & Nitro Da Kid - Busy Loving You 07. Alex Cery - Paloma 08. Kamelia vs. DJ Asher & ScreeN - U Can Do It 09. Alandy - Miss You 10. Kaiia vs. Manilla Maniacs - Crazy Love 12. Ligia - Dame Amor 13. Chris Mayer ft. J Yolo - Love Songs 14. Mandinga - Colours 15. Filip - Stronger 16. Dj Layla ft. Sianna - I Am Your Angel 17. Annes - Unde 18. Sllash ft. Robi - Beautiful Life
I had the pleasure of catching up with my good friend and great musician Dominic Kanza. Here is a part of his bio. The multi-cultural Kanza has performed with a wide and diverse variety of artists, such as Zairean pop idol Papa Wemba, and Jazz legends Pharaoh Sanders, Michael Brecker and Bill Laswell. He has also worked extensively with singer-songwriter Paul Simon, with whom he has collaborated on events such as President Bill Clinton's inaugural ball and Simon's annual "Back at the ranch" concert series, sharing the stage with performers such as Billy Joel, James Taylor, Jimmy Buffet, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Jose Feliciano and others. Dominic Kanza has also recorded with friend/composer Bob Telson (Bagdad Cafe), and has worked with him on numerous projects, including the Broadway musical "Chronicle of a Death Foretold". As a composer, Dominic has been active in television, writing the score for a National Geographic TV documentary film, "Zaire River". He has recorded numerous jingles and also wrote one of the theme songs for the "Oprah Winfrey Show". Dominic toured and performed with the singer Harry Belafonte, appearing in a PBS television concert entitled "An evening with Harry Belafonte and friends", which was released on video and CD. In 1993, Dominic received the Award of Excellence from the United Nations Writers Association. He was one of only 25 recipients worldwide, a group which included Mikhail Gorbachev and Vanessa Redgrave. Most recently he performed at the "Blues" concert at Radio City Music Hall with artists as diverse as BBKing , Buddy Guy, Aerosmith and The Neville Brothers. He is pictured at the event in the August issue of "Vanity Fair" in the "Room Full Of Blues" section. Dominic's debut album "All these years" reflects his multi-cultural experience. Into a stew of Soukous, he throws in spices of his international experience to produce a rich and exciting musical hybrid. A Southhampton critic writing an exuberant review concluded: "The only people with regrets Sunday morning about Saturday night's concert were the people who heard about the show and had to kick themselves for missing it ". http://www.dominickanza.net/
Sociology Professor Bennetta Jules-Rosette interviews Dominic Kanza, an African-born guitar virtuoso who has perfomed with Paul Simon and others. Kanza traces the African roots of many of today's popular music styles. Series: "UCSD Guestbook" [Humanities] [Arts and Music] [Show ID: 4271]
Sociology Professor Bennetta Jules-Rosette interviews Dominic Kanza, an African-born guitar virtuoso who has perfomed with Paul Simon and others. Kanza traces the African roots of many of today's popular music styles. Series: "UCSD Guestbook" [Humanities] [Arts and Music] [Show ID: 4271]
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