Podcast appearances and mentions of Flint Hills

The Symphony in the Flint Hills prepares for its final concert on June 14th after 20 remarkable years of bringing music to the Kansas prairie. This signature event has faced growing challenges, including weather disruptions and rising costs, but remains committed to celebrating and raising awareness about one of the last tallgrass prairies in the world.• Started when Jane Coger hosted the Kansas City Symphony on her property for a birthday celebration• Final event will be held at the Evans property in Chase County on June 14, 2024• General admission tickets sold out, but patron packages and sponsorships are still available• Creates a temporary "city" in remote prairie locations with stages, tents, and amenities• Features the Kansas City Symphony, Logan Mize, educational tents, a powwow, and stargazing• The organization hopes to continue its mission of promoting the Flint Hills through other programs• Has attracted visitors from every state and around the world over its 20-year history• Weather challenges and rising costs, especially insurance, contributed to the decision to end• Board Chair Mary Ice hopes the symphony's legacy will be "being remembered for having done it well."For more information or to purchase remaining patron packages, visit symphonyintheflinthills.org or call the office in Cottonwood Falls.GMCFCFAs

Robin and Connor discuss the fires in Flint Hills, KS and Nebraska's pickups in the basketball portal, and how successful he feels they've been so far. And switching to football, how the Huskers roster looks as they try to force more turnovers this season.

The Flint Hills Volunteer Center coordinates over 925 volunteers serving in 85 different opportunities across Riley County. It helps seniors age with dignity in their homes while creating meaningful service roles for community members.• Operates the medical transportation program with volunteers driving 57 clients to medical appointments in Manhattan• Facilitates the Neighbor-to-Neighbor program, providing leaf removal, snow clearing, and other home maintenance services• Coordinates 69 volunteers who deliver meals through the Friendship Meals Program• Supports 248 volunteers helping with Harvesters and local food pantries• Celebrates volunteers of all ages, with the oldest currently being 100 years old• Plans community events, including an annual 9/11 commemoration and "Heart for the Holidays" fundraiser• Works to meet the increasing needs of seniors, who will outnumber children under 18 by 2035• Provides weekly email updates about volunteer opportunities• Creates meaningful relationships between volunteers and those they serveSupport the Flint Hills Volunteer Center during Grow Green Match Day at GrowGreenManhattan.com or visit flinthillsvolunteercenter.com to become a volunteer.GMCFCFAs

The Flint Hills Breadbasket is transforming food assistance in Manhattan with its upcoming move to a spacious new facility on Skyview Drive, which will open in early May. Executive Director Karla Hagemeister shares how this expansion will create a dignified shopping experience while nearly doubling its weekly service hours.• New location will feature a grocery store-like environment with polished concrete floors and tall ceilings• Moving from cramped quarters to a space designed for dignity, comfort, and accessibility• Service hours expanding from 14.5 to 26 hours weekly• Volunteer opportunities available, including preparing 15,000 bags for the upcoming letter carriers' food drive• The current Yuma Street location will transfer to the City of Manhattan for community use• Grow Green Match Day funds are crucial for operations, as federal program cuts impact fresh produce optionsGMCFCFAs

Our special guest this week for More Women More Miles likely needs little introduction in the gravel cycling world. We are joined by writer, cyclist, and host of the Hit Play Not Pause Podcast, Selene Yeager. Selene brings her wealth of knowledge on female physiology and hormones, and how we can tailor our training for Unbound Gravel accordingly. This episode gives us a broad overview of hormones in the female life cycle, starting from regular menstruation, through perimenopause, menopause and post menopause. Selene explains how our hormones affect our whole bodies as a system, and how we can structure our training and fueling to adjust for shifts in physiology during different times in your cycle and lifespan. She also gives some of her other best tips and tricks for women to stay comfortable while riding hundreds of miles across the Flint Hills. Follow Selene on Instagram @feistymenopause and @fitchick3Check out the Hit Play Not Pause Podcast on livefeisty.comLearn more about Girona Gravel Camp and Unbound Gravel camp at girlsgonegravel.com Support our Partners:Feisty Girona Gravel Camp: Join us in Girona for an immersive week of exploring on bikes, reflecting, connecting, and setting intentions. Learn more at https://www.thomsonbiketours.com/trips/feisty-girona-gravel-camp/ buycycle: Head to https://buycycle.com/ggg to SAVE 30% when you sell a bike on the leading marketplace for pre-owned bikes and components. Previnex: Get 15% off your first order with code GIRLSGONEGRAVEL at https://www.previnex.com/ Feisty's Lift Heavy Guide: Get your guide to lifting heavy plus a 4-week training plan at https://www.womensperformance.com/lift-heavy

Leslie White, Director of the Flint Hills Discovery Center Foundation, shares her passion for supporting the Discovery Center through fundraising for exhibits, educational programs, and community events while making learning accessible to everyone in the region.• The annual Friend of the Flint Hills award will honor Carl and Mary Ice on April 11th for their contributions to protecting the Flint Hills ecosystem• This year marks the final Symphony in the Flint Hills event on June 14th, which White describes as "a truly remarkable experience" worth attending• The Foundation is developing an outdoor classroom with all-weather shade structures, informational panels, and prairie landscaping expected to open by fall 2026• Community tax credits are available for donations of $250+ toward the outdoor classroom project• The "Stepping into the Prairie" immersive exhibit showcases all four seasons and was developed with grant funding from Kansas Tourism and Commerce• The Discovery Center offers engaging experiences for all ages, from young children to grandparents• Grow Green Match Day donations support the youth education endowment fundVisit flinthillsdiscovery.org for information about events and donation opportunities.GMCFCFAs

The Flint Hills Regional Leadership Program offers a comprehensive approach to developing regional leaders through hands-on learning, community engagement, and servant leadership principles. By emphasizing collaboration and diversity, the program prepares participants to navigate challenges and contribute meaningfully to their communities. • Overview of the Flint Hills Regional Leadership Program • History and evolution since 1992 • Curriculum centered on regional community needs • Emphasis on servant leadership and practical experiences • Diverse participant demographics fostering collaboration • Application process and scholarship opportunities • Graduation benefits and networking outcomes • The importance of preparing for community challengesGMCFCFAs

Join us as we celebrate Jimmy Carter's legacy and explore Habitat for Humanity's impactful work in the Northern Flint Hills. Our conversation takes us through local community initiatives, upcoming events, and pioneering projects that aim to provide dignified housing for families in need. • Discussion of Jimmy Carter's influence on community service • Details about the Home is When the Heart Is Valentine's Gala • Insights on the deconstruction of the former Commerce Bank building • Overview of the Neighbors Helping Neighbors initiative during the snow crisis • Exploration of Habitat's future housing projects and modular construction plans • Emphasis on the importance of community engagement and supportGMCFCFAs

Allen County, Kansas is not a place most people will be familiar with, but the story is one you've probably heard before. Located in southeast Kansas, an hour and a half from the nearest major city, it features much that's typical of rural America. Iola, the county seat, is a city of 5,300 people. It has a classic town square and lies at the junction of a couple of state highways. The beautiful Flint Hills and its majestic cattle ranches are not far away.But after the community lost its hospital in the early 2000s, the usual questions emerge - is Iola, and the whole county on the verge of permanent decline?Out of this tragic circumstance was born Thrive Allen County Jared Wheeler, their Economic Development Director, joins me to talk about the path that Iola, Humboldt and the whole county have taken since that time. And, the remarkable successes they've achieved. Humboldt, for example, was featured in 2024's “15 Best Small Towns to Visit” in Smithsonian Magazine.You might not know much, or even care much, about rural Kansas. But I think you'll still find this to be an inspiring conversation and story. Jared and I cover a lot of ground, talking about rural community development, place-making, a culture of experimentation, and even bike paths.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin's Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you'd like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Text Transcript:Kevin Klinkenberg (00:01.158)Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg joined in studio today by a special guest from Central, what did you call it? Central Kansas? Southeast Kansas. Southeast Kansas, yeah. Southeast Kansas, all right. Well, shout out to my buddy Jason Carter-Solomon who hooked us up. He said, you know, just was out in Iowa, Kansas and I met this guy doing really cool stuff and it's like, you've got to talk to him.And it sounded intriguing and here we are. So welcome to the show for Jared Wheeler. You got it. Jared Wheeler. I am economic development director for a nonprofit in Southeast Kansas called Thrive Allen County. So I'm thrilled to be to be here today. Well, it should be a lot of fun. I have I've been through the area a little bit, have not stopped in Humboldt, which I know is like the big.tourist draw now. Right, right. Who would have thought that a community of 2,500 people would be in the Smithsonian magazine, New York Times, all these national publications saying you got, you have to come check this place out. Yeah. So why don't we start a little bit by just talking about, first of all, what thrive Allen County is, and how you came to be a part of it. So thrive Allen County.was initiated when the hospital in Iola, Kansas was closing. And as part of the agreement, anytime a hospital closed at that point, the idea that assets would be sold and then the money put it into the, with the intention of creating a 501c3 nonprofit, specifically dedicated towards public health initiatives. So Thrive Allen County was born out of really a crisis. So it's kind of birth from a crucible.the hospital in a small town closes. If you speak rural life fluently at all, that is a recurring theme that the hospital in town closes and you are left with some amalgamation of clinics or some specialty shops or just a general practice with limited beds, no overnight stays, that sort of thing. So the hospital closes, thrive, Allen County is born.Kevin Klinkenberg (02:20.988)And its initial mandate is to improve the community health. Just to interrupt for just a sec. So give people perspective. How big is Iowa? Yeah. Iowa, Kansas is about 5,200 people. Relatively small. It's the county seat of Allen County, Kansas. The next largest community is humble of 2,500 people. So the entire county's population is 12,000. Right. So for those of you who are in urban context, you are.probably struggling to imagine that sort of lack of population density, population scarcity. It's funny. It reminds me. So I went to high school in a small town in central Missouri. That was about 12,000 people. Okay. But when I hear you say, you know, Iowa is 5,200, it just reminds me that like when you're in a smaller town, like the hundreds matter. my. Saying 5,200 versus like 5,600, that's like a big deal. Right. It's the same way, you know,parents of young children still measure their kids age in months. It's like, is it about 27 months? It's the same situation for those of us who are doing our best work in rural communities, like 5,200. Because if I say, it's about 5,000 people, somebody out there is listening going, my graduating class was 5,000 people. That makes no sense. So Thrive, that's our context in which we work. And for the last,17 years Thrive has existed to enrich the health of citizens in Allen County. And that was initially in specifically related to physical health. So we have healthcare navigators that try and make sure that as many people as possible are insured. We operate vaccination clinics throughout the county, especially in even more rural and remote context. And thenabout halfway through the lifespan of Thrive, economic development was added. And economic development is really pursued from the perspective of community health. What is going to be a source of good, benevolent disruption? That's my approach constantly is what is going to disrupt the systems that are in place that contribute to the lack of health?Kevin Klinkenberg (04:45.788)for our community members through economic development. So that's my role and I am part of, technically I'm a one man department, but we all work together at Thrive and with our partners, both public and private partners in the communities. So how big is the organization overall? We have just under 30 employees right now. Yeah, and so we're fortunate in that some of those employees are in a transition period because we operate Allen Regional Transit.which is a public transportation organization in a rural context, which I know some of y'all out there are picturing like covered wagons. That's not exactly what's going on. But so we operate a public transit organization. And then we also have within our organization, the seed of another nonprofit that will probably spin off called Thrive Kansas, which is working for the same sort of rural community health goals.that we do in Allen County, but is trying to create statewide networks to do that. And how did you, are you from the area? Man, my rural bona fides are legit. I am, I am from a town of 500 people originally called Thayer, Kansas and in the same region, Southeast Kansas again, born and raised there. And really, so you have to remember I grew up in the nineties, early two thousands. So my experience of the wider world.was purely through pop culture. We didn't go anywhere. I was as hasty as they come. I knew what sushi was. did not eat. I had not had a bite of sushi until probably when I was on my honeymoon. And my cousin and I had a wonderful time. I'm just kidding. And so that's my baseline understanding of the world. But then I...I lived and worked in churches and schools after that. Did my grad school in Portland, Oregon. And so I did intensive weeks out there. So I was spending time in Portland in the Pacific Northwest for a couple of weeks at a time for four or five semesters. And so I've experienced a lot of different contexts. And then we moved back to Southeast Kansas, my wife and family and I from Kansas City actually. And so we lived up here.Kevin Klinkenberg (07:12.294)and then moved back about nine years ago with the choice to locate our family in a rural context. that's my route towards economic or community development is incredibly circuitous. And I really, I've found that that was a point of embarrassment for me initially when I took the job, because I just thought, everybody knows this stuff better than I do. And now I'm learning more and more about our conversation off mic before that.You were in architecture school before you got into community development. And I think that's, that is true for so many people that the reason they end up in community development, economic development, especially in a rural context is because they love the place. They love the place. They are invested in it and they have lived it. And again, bear the burden of what could be, or they have lived it and they are so quintessentially formed by it.that they believe other people should benefit from that formation as well. And the same is true for me in both directions. So, really the only experience I have with your area has been driving back and forth between Kansas City and Tulsa, which is kind of like the most direct route, really. Maybe not the fastest route, it's hard to say, but it's more interesting anyway, a little more scenic.been through Iowa. don't think I actually have driven through Humboldt yet. Humboldt, as you mentioned, has been a place that's gotten a lot of attention in recent years and it's kind of on the radar for, you know, like glamping and for cycling and everything else. Why don't you talk a little bit about like how and why has the area started to get the level of attention that you mentioned before?I think there's two categories I should speak to. The first is material and then maybe the second is going to sound a little weird, but it's mythological. So materially, one of the reasons that the area has gotten attention is because quite frankly, it's cost effective to develop and to try things in Allen County. The economic ecosystem in rural Kansas has typically been one of either extraction or exploitation historically.Kevin Klinkenberg (09:35.81)It is a wildcatting pioneering economy since my goodness, since the 19th century. And so the, industries that boomed the turn of the 20th century into the 19th century were extraction based businesses. Let's pull things as pull natural resources out. mean, my goodness, near Iola, Kansas, there is literally a city called gas and it is called gas because you, you made your bones.as part of a natural gas business there, that that's the way you made it so that the name stuck and in Humboldt and Iola there, there were massive, concrete businesses. there are these huge firms that, mined a mineral from that area and then use it to turn it into cement and concrete. So it's one that's still an operation monarch cement company in Humboldt, Kansas, butThat is the case. either you're pulling a resource from the landscape and when that is exhausted, you leave. And so that that also funnels into that exploitation idea. It's extraction or exploitation. So there's a sense amongst the folks who live and this may be true if you're a real person listening, you might be nodding along or you might want to fight me either way. WhereThere's an idea, the scarcity mindset that blends in that says, well, everybody who could have left did. Everyone who had the chance and the means and the capacity to leave when it was time to leave did, and we are what remains. I don't think that's accurate. I think that's sometimes, unfortunately, the way that small communities understand themselves. They either become bitterness factories or hope factories. That's very rarely.in a community that is somewhat remote and rural, is it in between those two extremes. You're either a community of hope or you're a community of bitterness. What could have been and what might be. So those are your two extremes. And I'd love to talk to people if they feel like they live in a community that exists right in the middle of those.Kevin Klinkenberg (11:51.238)So the first reason why the community, the area is getting more attention is because materially it's more cost effective to try something new there. That economic ecosystem of extraction or exploitation is given way to one of experiment. Let's try something new. And so there are people who are either coming back to the area or they are relocating from other parts of the country.because they have an idea that is impossible due to the cost constraints of where they live. I am assuming even for our folks who are listening in Kansas City, that if I started doing cost analysis comparison between opening a storefront business of some sort in Prairie Village compared to Iola, Kansas, you will not get the population density for traffic or tail lights, butfor your permit cost, you might be able to buy a building in Iola. So that's really at end of the day, it's more cost effective in our area just because things are cheaper. I don't mean to be crass, but that's what it comes down to. That's the material side. The second one, the one that I'm maybe even more interested in is the mythological side. Why are people so interested in that area? And I wanna ask this question as I hold this off in my head.How do you think people from non-rural contexts experience or how is their perception of the rural world formed by what pop cultural artifacts, so to speak? in the fifties and sixties, I would say it's probably Mayberry, you know, it's the Andy Griffith show. And what's the essence of the rural experience? Well, everybody knows you, you're not going to get away with anything because you'reyour mom's hairdresser's aunt saw you do that. And so they're going to report back. And then as it moves forward, what there's kind of this, it's dearth of pop cultural artifacts that have, kind of monolithic effect, except I believe there is now a new pop cultural phenomenon that everyone at least is aware of that is giving people a lens to look through.Kevin Klinkenberg (14:16.988)and see the rural context. And this is going to be absolutely ridiculous to most people, but stay with me. If you're familiar, if you, if you are familiar with the incredible pieces of art, they're known as hallmark movies. You have had a rural experience because those movies never take place in urban settings. Or if they do, it's only momentary because they're trying to escape it to getto the rural place in which you are going to fall in love, achieve your dreams and feel your stress melt away. And that's silly, it's ridiculous. But at the same time, I believe there is a, I think that is a very kitschy way of seizing on a groundswell ofCollective emotion right now where people are looking for something that is more simple. Our lives are incredibly hectic. We know they're hectic. We know that we are addicted to everything and anything. So how can I simplify? And then how can I take charge of my life and do what I want to do and have some agency? And with a little bit where your dollars go a little bit farther and maybe the pace of life slows down, people feel like they have a little bit more agency.And then finally, where can I still access some version of the American dream, whatever that is? And I think that is a piece of mythology that has been so twisted and turned, but there's, it's still baked in somewhere to us. And I think at the end of the day, part of that dream in a rural context is can I be known by people and can I know other people? I'm sure you are aware of thethe emphasis and the buzzwords of, you know, quality spaces, place making third spaces. mean, we are, we are addicted to those. And in a rural context, I think the perception is when you look through the lens of an artifact, like a hallmark movie, that the entire community is a third space because you're going to bump into the person you work with elsewhere. You're going to see someone.Kevin Klinkenberg (16:38.764)at one of the three restaurants in town that you saw yesterday crossing the street or so on and so forth. So I think that's one reason why the community has been so, or the area has been of interest is because mythologically, it provides an avenue towards some essential thing that we want out of living life in community that may be a little bit more difficult.in, if not an urban context, certainly a suburban context. So if I were to put a dot in Iowa and then draw like a circle 100 miles around it, there's an awful lot of small towns within that circle. Right. What has distinguished Iowa and Humboldt that you see more positiverebound and attraction than maybe some other towns that are within that context. One thing that has really helped so much are collectivist approach to problem solving. for example, my organization Thrive Island County, especially in the area of economic development, we would be completely inept and ineffective if we didn't haveclose and active partnerships with local government and local business leaders and confederations of industry leaders as well. So that's one of the first reasons that Iola Allen County has been successful is because it's taken a collectivist approach to problem solving without any sort of political machinations behind that, or sometimes even completely devoid ofpolitical ideology, just because, something needs to change. What do we do about it? Another reason is because folks who have been successful in Allen County have taken it upon themselves, even though there isn't a whole lot of philanthropic infrastructure, or they don't see philanthropic models that you might see in a larger community. you start a foundation, that foundation does this, this is the way in which you...Kevin Klinkenberg (18:59.088)you know, are able to recoup some of what you've given away through tax breaks and so on and so forth. That infrastructure doesn't really exist in Southeast Kansas and small communities, but successful individuals have taken it upon themselves to think critically about the complex issues that their communities face, identify the areas in which they can have an impact and aggressively pursue that impact. So, andI'll be somewhat discretionary simply because the individual in question is not a huge fan of publicity, but there's an individual, a family in Humboldt, Kansas, that at the time of the pandemic redirected a considerable amount of its workforce towards making community improvements as opposed to laying off workers at their industry. That's turned into almost a parabolic story.but it is exemplary of this individual and this company's approach to community improvement. And even without a model that said, is how you do this. There's no, there's not a Carnegie library in Humboldt, Kansas, even serving as a beacon of what philanthropy looks like. This individual became a quintessential philanthropist to solveproblems and it's in his small community again, because he loves it. And that example has had a profound impact throughout the region where there are more and more folks who have been successful and have realized that their success has resulted because someone else made a provision for them and they've turned around and said, okay.How do I address the complex issues? Not merely I'm gonna endow a scholarship, which by the way, we love that, keep doing that everyone, but we need new curb and gutters in the road. I bet I could do something with that. I bet I could have an effect in that direction. So we've been very beneficial through collectivist solution making and then also,Kevin Klinkenberg (21:19.676)the inspired philanthropy of successful folks. mean, that's so interesting. It kind of hits on a broader topic. know Aaron Wren on his podcast has he's talked about this as well. But like one of the real differences today versus in communities, say 100 years ago, is that 100 years ago, the bank in town was locally owned. Right. The department store was locally owned.Right. You know, most of the, and this is true in cities of towns of almost all sizes, that your local leadership class were people who owned prominent businesses in the town. Right. And that is something that has been lost in an awful lot of communities because of, you know, just changes in the economy and so muchSo much of a shift towards sort of larger corporate owned Businesses that then just have branches in places and you just never have the same buy-in right you're like if you're like the branch manager of a bank that's got 500 Locations right you're gonna have a different buy-in than if you're like the owner of the bank. Yeah and and the same goes for for a lot of industry so I think that's it's really interesting what you mentioned that you sort of start starting from a kernel of somebody who ownedan important business and lives in the town and says, just like you said, I'm not going to just do a scholarship fund, but I'm going to invest in things that make, improve quality of life where I am. Right. And I guess that's, as you were, as you were talking about that, I, I couldn't help but wonder, and I'll, I'll ask you directly if you, do you think a community can outsource its self identity? no. Okay. Okay. So, but that's, that's the tug.When so many things are operated or owned remotely is what happens is this, I really think an existential crisis for a community to go, then what are we and who are we? And if you don't have a thing to point to that provides an place of orientation for your community, it gets really hard to then invite people to invest in that community.Kevin Klinkenberg (23:44.63)And so I think that's, I think you're exactly right. That when, when that autonomy evaporates, then you do have a, identity crisis, so to speak. And so that's one thing that's been really interesting in both Iola and Humboldt is, you know, the businesses that are added, we have some community investment, groups and, some microloan groups andso on and so forth. The businesses that have been added are not, mean, there is no retailer that's saying we'd love to drop a branch in your town of 5,000 people. It doesn't make sense for them. So what's added is homegrown. It's local entrepreneurs who we claw to find capital for them and then they take a swing and we're fortunate in that. I sit on a board of what we call a entrepreneurial community.a lending group, micro loans. although, you know, to us, they're not micro to other folks. might be, we have over 25 loans on the book right now and 99.9 % of them are making their payments with regularity. And we have businesses that are crossing that year to five to year six, year six threshold, which is enormous for anybody in the entrepreneurial world. And we've just been fortunate because, there's nobody coming to rescue us.think that is, that is a shift in mindset for small communities. That's so important and it requires a bit of, I mean, you, have to be brutally honest with yourself that you, you need to empower the folks who are there to ask why not instead of why here. Yeah. AndIf something else comes along, if something locates itself in your community, that is an extra. But if you can empower the folks who are local to take a chance, then I think you're onto something that could be sustainable. Yeah. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more, maybe some specific examples of like the homegrown approach. The reason I ask that is I'm old enough to rememberKevin Klinkenberg (26:09.818)that the standard approach to rural economic development for a long, time was go plat an industrial park on the edge of town, put the infrastructure in, and try to attract what basically were like low wage industrial jobs from big companies. that's how you will save your community. what you're describing is a really different sort of a bottom up approach to working with people who are already there.I wonder if you could talk more about like some of the successes or some of the other couple of stories you can share. Absolutely. and we still do that. I mean, I, got, I got two industrial parks right now that are planning and ready to rock. So if you're out there listening and you, and you want to, know, you need a spot for your biofuel company, hit me up. Cause I am ready to talk. so we're not, we're not opposed to that approach. I just think that, charting that as the only course is, really risky.And to be honest, I don't know how much, how reliable it is. I think it's a part of a solution model. But so for example, we have a coffee shop in Iola, Kansas. Every community has got a coffee shop at this point. It doesn't matter how small you are. This coffee shop, shout out Wild Bloom Coffee in Iola. And this coffee shop got started as alower level commercial space on the square. Like every other cute coffee shop in a small town bought the bare minimum square footage that they could afford as just one half of a building, one half of the lower level of a building. And the coffee shop has been so successful and it's been able toapply for and receive grant funding. It's been able to benefit from a neighborhood revitalization program that's a tax rebate program when they made improvements to the space. It works considerably with our organization in small business coaching and in capital pursuit through our micro loan program. And this coffee shop has now purchased the entire building that they're in. They offerKevin Klinkenberg (28:29.468)kind of a subscription based bourbon taste in nights and cigar bar evenings. And they're going to expand to catering and they they serve brunch now. And in our little coffee shop in Southeast Kansas, the other day I had the best ramen I've had in years. we have, they're really talented folks who are owning and operating that shop, but it's been able to expand consistently.due to again, these collectivist approach because there's so many people, it's not only that they serve a great product, they do. It's not only that they provide a great customer experience, which they do, but it's also because they have been willing to not only want help, but ask for help. And that's an enormous difference. Wanting help is just the awareness that you need something. Asking for help is putting your hand in the air,I said, okay, I'm willing to reach out and grab whomever is going to help out, but I'm asking for it. And so that's an example that we've had in Iola. In Humboldt, Kansas, and I can take no credit for this, there's a group known as a Boulder Humboldt. And that is a confederation of business owners, entrepreneurs, movers and shakers who have added businesses throughout Humboldt. So the best...And from my money, the best little honky tonk in Kansas is the Hitching Post in Humboldt, Kansas. And they have live music every night, every weekend night, excuse me. Probably the most expansive collection of whiskeys that you could want or need. And it is an incredibly successful business and an incredibly successful gathering place. And again, was started.by an individual who moved to Humboldt who had connections with people who had multiple generations of their family within Humboldt. And they were able to continue to build that business and be patient as it was built. they live, to your point earlier, they live and work in the community. The gentleman who owns that business is a city council person in Humboldt, Kansas. And...Kevin Klinkenberg (30:48.88)is really devoted towards overall community health and community growth. those are, and those businesses are now moving beyond. So Hitching Post is moving towards, I think it's third year of operations. So kind of living past that initial start at birth. Wild Bloom, I believe is to year four and five in Iola. So we have some wonderful businesses that are outside of what people would expect in a small community.again, because there've been collectivist approach. So hitching posts exists because of the collective that is a bold or humble and humble. Wild Bloom exists because of multiple collective groups within Iola that were, had a vested interest in these success stories. So the one, I confess the one business I remember from going through Iola is I stopped at the butcher shop right off the highway, which was a pretty incredible operation.And I think at the time I was kind of thinking about, we're not very far from ranch country. I had a cooler with me. want to buy some steaks or whatever and take them home with me. And of course the selection was incredible. The prices were way better than when I get in the city. And it's pretty much like fresh off the ranch. Right. I mean, you might have driven by cattle that were lamenting that their buddy was gone and ended up in your cooler instead.Yeah. So one of the thing I definitely I know about the area is you have this north south bike trail. Yeah. That comes through that goes for, I don't know, 100 miles or something. Yeah. Is that the Prairie Spirit? Prairie Spirit Trail. Yeah. What impact has that had on the area? So one, we have a very high rate of folks who bike or walk to work. Comparatively, I just pulled that data.We are higher than the state average, I think almost twice as high as the state average and people that walk or bike to work. So to me, that signifies two things. is it's pedestrian or bike traffic is built into the community. think part of that is because of the trails. There's 60 miles of trail in Allen County alone.Kevin Klinkenberg (33:09.622)so that's around the, what will become the new state park, Lehigh Portland state park. That's going to be on the edge of Viola. let's say it was a lake that was publicly owned and privately owned and then was deeded over to the state of Kansas and, Kansas department of wildlife and parks is turning that into a new state park. So there's a lot of trails around that and people have access to those trails for a while. Thrive Island County, maintenance is those trails on behalf of KDWP right now.we have trails though, that also we, we think of in, in rural communities, you think of your trails as out somewhere out towards the woods. I mean, you're go ride around and walk around, but there's also dedicated trails in Iola, that go to the hospital. spoiler alert, we did get a new hospital. I started the story talking about the, this, closing of the hospital, new hospitals added, to the elementary school, a new elementary school and to the high school, middle school, and also to around.Not to, we're working on getting trails all through the main thoroughfares in town, but there's also trails around Allen Community College in Iowa as well. So we are addicted to trail building and maintenance because we have a population that in many respects is income challenged. And an automobile, even though to most of us is an automatic purchase to a lot of our neighbors and friends, it's a luxury.And so if you do not have an automobile, but you need to get to work or you need to make your appointment or you need to get to school, you need to have a safe way to do so. And so I think that that trail system is. It's part of a wider, pedestrian and bike travel understanding and folks in our community are not embarrassed to do so. And it's because there's not.There's not the income stratification that exists. I mean, in some communities, if you see someone that is riding their bike to work, there's three categories either, they're, they're a granola type that just wants to show us that they're more fit and better than the rest of us. They are too poor to purchase a vehicle or they get a DUI and they can't drive right now. I mean, that is the truth in, our community because the, because of the prevalence of the trail system.Kevin Klinkenberg (35:35.002)If someone is walking or biking to work, it's really hard to codify them. I wonder if they fall into this category or that category just because it's the norm. So we're very fortunate that those trails exist and they do. It also affects, as you mentioned, the glamping outdoors, outdoor recreation, infrastructure and commercialization that exists in our area. That's very helpful. So again, in Humboldt, there is a camping, kayaking,and BMX riding facility known as Base Camp. And it is located at a trailhead. And so you can jump off Prairie Spirit or Southwind Trail. You can go into Base Camp. The, again, the state park is full of trails and also on Prairie Spirit and connect to Southwind Trails as well. Yeah. And then if you ride it far enough, you'll connect to the Flint Hills Trail. Yeah, exactly. Which is.over a hundred miles East West trail. Right. Exactly. My wife and I have ridden a few times. Okay. Cool. Yeah. we, we, one of our favorite events of the years, we go to the symphony and the foothills. Yeah. which is, I almost hate to talk about it because I don't want, I don't want it to become too popular. You don't want people to show up. Yeah. I really don't want people from the coast flying in and, and, making this, you know, too expensive, but my God, it's an incredible thing. Right.just one of the coolest events that we do on a regular basis with where the Kansas City Symphony goes out onto a active cattle ranch in the Flint Hills and performs a concert. But we've made a habit of going and writing a different section of the Flint Hills Trail every year, which is really a fun experience as well. But haven't done the Prairie Spirit, so I'm...Interested to do that. You absolutely should. mean, we, we talked to cyclists who do the same thing, who are connected using the Prairie Spirit to get to the Flint Hills. We're doing a major ride and they're always impressed with the quality of the trails. the Prairie, I, I can only say I only ride or have ridden a portion of it. so, and if you happen to see me riding, can, you can, guess a, is it.Kevin Klinkenberg (37:46.192)Poverty is a DUI or is it granola? one? What's the reason? But no, we're very fortunate that that trail system exists and fortunate that we are the custodians of that trail system. And that's one thing that I would say to, if you're in a rural context and you're just trying to think of something that you could add that would improve quality of life, would be a quality of life amenity, which by the way is an absolute necessity now.That's reason people are choosing to locate themselves in different places. Obviously housing matters, obviously childcare matters, obviously the possibility of earning a comfortable income matters. But if those three things are satisfied, they're making decisions about where to land based on, you know, is there a quality of life, amenity that I can connect myself with? You have, you have space and you have dirt. You are almost there. You are almost to the, to having a trail.or a system of trails in your community on the edge of your community. Please, please talk to Thrive Allen County. We have a lot of experience of doing trail work. We have blown it and messed it up in different places so we can help you avoid those problems as well. But that is a way in which you can activate your community and you can also contribute to the overall health of your community as well. So I want to talk a little bit more about the place making aspect of this.Like I mentioned before, went to high school in a small town in central Missouri and before that I did first through eighth grade in a small town in southern Minnesota.things that were memories that really stick out for me was, know, if you live in a small community and you're a kid, like riding a bike is a normal thing. Yeah. And I used to ride my bike everywhere. And it was accepted. It was normalized. It was easy to do and safe. There's very little traffic on most of the streets. But as soon as you hit 16 years old, like it is theKevin Klinkenberg (39:54.78)uncoolest thing in the world. You've got to have a car. You've got to be cruising around. there, one of the things that has really interested me that I've tried to, I've tried to articulate, I haven't done a great job of it, but I've thought a lot about, which is most small towns are absolutely natural places for the sort of walking, biking lifestyle that.quote unquote urbanists talk about all the time. it's actually, they were built for that originally. But it also bumps up against like the, there's a culture aspect, which seems to not embrace that in most small towns. And I experienced that. I still see it all the time. And I've often thought like really, I guess maybe I want your reaction to this. One of the things I've thought is thatone of the best economic development approaches for a lot of small towns is to be the antithesis of the big city and the big city, people think of it as urban with all this cool stuff to do. But the reality is most people are spending a ton of time in a car, getting from place to place, commute, whether not just commuting, but going shopping, kids activities, et cetera. Looking for a parking spot. Looking for a parking spot. but in a small town,those, it almost ought to be like, that's the place where you could really sell this idea of a lifestyle where you get on your bike and get to a lot of places. You could walk to the town square and that should be a real competitive advantage. wonder if you could, you think that's. Yeah. So why does that not happen? No, I think that's a, I think that is such an insightful question. and one that we struggle with a lot. so I want to, I want to tackle it in a couple of different ways.One is back to the mythology. What's a marker of success? Marker of success is to be able to have your preferred automobile and typically multiple automobiles. And that doesn't end just because you're in a small town. People still want to virtue or virility signal with their automobiles. And because of the work and the terrain in which people live in small towns in rural Kansas, automobiles are typically bigger. Automobiles are bigger anywhere.Kevin Klinkenberg (42:13.868)Always constantly. that again, back to the American dream model, excess is our love language as a culture. so at the same way you got, you have a lot of big vehicles and we need, we're going to signal that we're doing well via this big vehicle, especially if you struggle with multi-generational poverty. Here's a purchase you can make that is a signal that does not require the type of overhead as a home.So I'm going to buy this vehicle. It's going to show everyone that I'm doing okay. The only way to show everyone that is to use said vehicle until I can't make the payments on it anymore. that's not a, that's not a purely rural experience, but it's one that shows up a lot, especially in socioeconomically, depressed areas. Yeah. Here's my $50,000, vehicle in front of my $40,000 house. Sure. Sure. yeah. So that, that, that occurs a lot. There's still,There's still status signaling through via vehicles. That's the first one. Second one is it costs communities more to provide the infrastructure necessary for safe pedestrian and bicycle traffic. If you have X amount of dollars in your county budget or in your city budget to build roads and it's going to take, you know, 5 % more to add a bike lane.to change the width of your sidewalks and you have to decide either we do the project without those things or we don't do the project at all because everyone is clamoring for those things. In most cases, they're going to choose to add the infrastructure without these dedicated spaces. Part of my organization's efforts is to educate communities that you can do that in a cost effective way. You can add those things in a way that's cost effective. So,I think we're moving the needle in that direction. I think that that's still a big issue. we have some, so there's some cultural status signaling. We have some infrastructure cost challenges there. And then also the antithesis of the big city idea is very interesting because typically when people see adults riding their bikes, if you are from a rural community,Kevin Klinkenberg (44:34.576)You only see that when you go to larger communities. I remember having, again, I did grad school in Portland and Portland is an incredibly bike friendly community. If you talk to people who drive in Portland, who do not also cycle there, they lament how bike friendly it is. But if you are a person traveling in a large city, from a rural context to a large city, you see for the first time.city infrastructure that has bike lanes, has bike crossing, pedestrian cross, a lot more foot traffic, a lot more bike traffic. And it can be really alarming to your sensibility of what it is to get from place A to place B. And so, man, did we have a scare, I almost hit that person on a bike. Do I really want to deal with that back home? In a place where you're sharing literal traffic lanes as opposed to driving next to a bike lane.so on and so forth. So I think you're right. think there there is a sense in which, you do want to be the antithesis of the big city. But where you say that and you go, so make yourself more walk walkable and bikeable. There are folks in smaller towns who go, yeah, man, there's a lot of cyclists in that big city that I that I visited. And it was really difficult to navigate. I think that's shifting. We're very fortunate in that even in our town of five thousand people, there are folks who are interested in.making a transition from predominantly using their vehicle, their automobile to get around to using their bike or just walking again, twice as high as the state average of folks who getting to work that way. So I think we're seeing that, that shift. And I think that is a selling point for why we're inviting people to spend time in our area or consider moving to our area. Because if that is a lifestyle change you would like to make or that you've already embraced, thenThere's probably a way in which you can get everywhere you need to go in Iola or Humboldt or elsewhere in Allen County on your bike or on your own two feet.Kevin Klinkenberg (46:38.566)Another thing that has been really interesting the last few years, in the wake of COVID and all of the policies and changes that happened, there's been an awful lot written and talked about in regards to like people moving. People leaving cities, looking for smaller towns. Sometimes they're leaving the city and moving to the suburbs. Sometimes they're maybe moving from the suburbs to a small town or an exurb.And obviously, I don't need to rehash all of that, but there's been a lot of conversation about that for the last few years. And it feels a little bit like there's been a shift in perception in the culture about small town living in a positive way. What have you noticed the last four or five years? First, a little bit of a, I don't want to dampen that.that exuberance for small town living. But I think the data is starting to show us that people dip their toe into rural life and then they have went back to the cities or to the suburbs or so on and so forth. But in some cases, that's that's true. Just people have chosen a city, a new city, and they've left. So Austin's a great example. Austin boomed post pandemic and now their vacancy rate in particular apartments, condos, things like that.is astronomical because people are like, well, this was cool. And now I'm ready to go back to where my job is or where I lived previously. And so I think that's happening. The shuffling of the deck is resettling itself, so to speak. I do think you're right that there is a more positive perception of rural living than there used to be. I think it's because COVID taught us that everything could be truly remote.And if you can survive and maybe even thrive, and you talk to some folks and the best years of their life, with all due respect to people who lost loved ones during COVID or struggled with that, or still dealing with the health effects following COVID, there are some people who will tell you that COVID changed my life. I was at home with my family. I was taking more, more direct self-care. I was making efforts toKevin Klinkenberg (49:00.964)identify some things in my character that I want to change. It changed my life. So being remote was a positive. And so I think, what if I did that geographically as well? What if I did that socially as well? And I located myself in someplace a little more remote. Would that also be advantageous to me? And I think COVID also reminded us of the power of knowing people and being known by people.I think that is probably the primary reason in which people are choosing, if they're not business owners or entrepreneurs, people are choosing to live in smaller communities or move to smaller communities, even if the numbers aren't as great as they were immediately post-COVID, because they see an opportunity to be known by their neighbors and to know their neighbors. Because when that was taken away from us, for so many of us,that was relationally cataclysmic. And it made us, it gave us all, but it also gave us time to go, okay, how well do I really know the folks that I'm not seeing anymore? And does that bother me that I don't know them? And could I know them better? And I think in a rural context, there's still that capacity to know the people that live on your street and to really interact with them. And not that it's impossible.in an ex-urban or suburban or urban context, but it might be a little less immediate than it is in a rural context. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the joke that the best thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. The worst thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. For sure. That's absolutely true. I think maybe COVID reminded us though.The worst thing isn't as bad as the best thing could be good. doubt. What are, what are some of the things that your communities need to get better at? like what, if you were to chart a positive course or continue the improvement, what, what do you need to do better? What are you trying to work on now? So one thing we need to do is accentuate a positive that I mentioned earlier, more firm and reliable collective approaches to problem solving.Kevin Klinkenberg (51:22.138)So that's one thing. A second thing that we need to get better at is our anchor institutions need to position themselves as irrepressible agencies for good. So, for example, our school districts, our community college in Iowa, Kansas, and then the city governments and county governments, they need to, we need to work together to see ourselves as innovation agents.and benevolent disruptors as opposed to status quo maintenance agencies. And again, I think that's applicable in most rural contexts and probably applicable in a lot of community contexts, because again, you are either moving towards becoming a hope factory or bitterness factory and status quo will lead you to bitterness because those who don't achieve it will become in bitter that they didn't achieve it.or those that you're trying to force feed it to as the end result of their life will wonder why you didn't chart a more hopeful course for them. So we need our anchor organizations to see themselves as agencies of good and do so without shame. And I think that is obviously a difficult thing to map out or reverse engineer, but what it requiresis leadership that is constantly in pursuit of not utilitarianism or what works, but what is going to have the best long term effect on the quality of life of the people that work for the organization or that the organization serves. those are two things that I would say even more collective approaches to problem solving. So housing is a great example.Everybody's struggling with housing right now, whether you're in an urban context or a rural context. And the old ways of solving that, just, you know, here's a here's a platable era, you know, several plaits, plaited land that the city owns. And we want a developer to come in and you can build a subdivision. And we're going to give you these tax breaks. We're going to incentivize this in so many different ways. I think that's still maybe possible in certain contexts and rural contexts. It's just not possible.Kevin Klinkenberg (53:44.828)One, because the city typically doesn't own that much land. And two, a developer then has to say, can I, what are the margins going to be? Because I'm going to have to bring a crew down here. I'm going to get supplies down here. Are there already contractors down here? There's already people. There's master craftsmen and so on and so forth. But there's not a contractor and there's not a readily available crew. So, for example, the state of Kansas right now, the Department of Commerce has offered the frame grant.that is going to give capital to community colleges that have a building trades program, construction program to help identify the gap in the housing ecosystem and address it. And I think things like that, ideas like that are going to be so important moving forward because they're going to be necessary for everyone to get on the same page. In Humboldt, Kansas, the most reliable developer, with the exception of maybe in the past year,was the school district. High school built one house every two years or so. And it was a guaranteed reliable development. One house in Kansas City, who no one will notice, in a community of 2,500 people, a new house is, I guarantee you, is the talk of the town. So I think that is something that's going to be necessary is that we continue to embrace and expect collective solutions.collaborative solutions to complex problems. And then that our anchor agencies, and this could even include our anchor institutions and maybe even our industrial partners, see themselves with a responsibility to be benevolent disruptors.One thing kind of as part of that conversation, I might be reading a little bit into this, but I certainly know from my experience that oftentimes in rural communities, there is more of an acceptance of just status quo. It is what it is. I don't mean to say this like an insulting way to anybody, but.Kevin Klinkenberg (55:58.22)not necessarily a push for excellence or striving. Maybe the better way to say it is not as much striving to achieve. And I think part of that's because it's more comfortable and easy to live in a smaller town, costs are less, et cetera, et cetera. In a big city, you find a lot more people who really striving for something. Is that an aspect at all of kind of like, as you think aboutthe next phases are achieving more in your county? No. I'll elaborate. No, if you don't, if you don't believe that striving for excellence is part of the rural expectation, you have not been to a county fair. So if you go to a county fair and see the effort that people put into things that will neverbe recognized outside of a three day event and the sweltering heat at the end of July in rural Kansas, then I don't know what to you. if it's speak with, communicate with folks who are trying to grow the best stand of wheat that they have in their life every year, speak with people who aredo not care about commodity prices, but are proud of the way that they're being fields look, or the person that is growing the best beef you've ever eaten in your life. and I think that pursuit of excellence is still there. I understand what you're saying that, and I think the, what you're, what you're actually articulating is something that's present in rural communities, which is the reluctance to be disruptive. I don't, I don't want.to in any way rock the boat because rocking the boat will, could potentially bring shame on myself. And they still on the honor and shame, social economy and small towns is still very real because most people are multiple or are part of a multiple generation. you know, family tree it's been in that area. So my gosh, if you mess up, then the shame that bring on your family.Kevin Klinkenberg (58:21.628)it moves up and down that family tree. It's not isolated to just yourself. If you are an entrepreneur in Atlanta and you have no connection to the community, you just landed there, and you try a business and it flops, but then you're able to go somewhere else. There's no shame involved in that. You, you are.a pioneer. You are, you know, you're an entrepreneur and everyone is going to be impressed by you because you had a great big idea that just didn't work. And here's 18 reasons it didn't work that you had no control over. If you're an entrepreneur in Iowa, Kansas and your business flops and you still have to live in that community and everybody's going to ask your aunt when she goes to church on Sunday, well, you know.We saw that he started that your, your nephew started that auto body place. Is this, is it still open? Didn't seem like there were many cars there. Didn't seem, didn't seem like he's doing, is he doing okay? he's, they had to close. that's terrible. And your aunt's the one who has to answer that question for you. And so I think, I don't think it's a reluctance to pursue excellence. I think it is a fear that they will somehow.do something that will be shameful. Interesting. And I think that that's very real. And that burden of failure sits heavy in a rural community. failure in a rural community historically is very obvious. It is driving by a field that is fallow. It is driving by a farmhouse that's in disrepair.because there's not money to take care of it. So it is so much louder than it can be in other places. Interesting. I appreciate that. last thing I wanted to ask about, as I've looked before at coming to Humboldt in particular, I was really impressed by just the amount of activity that is programmed in the town on a regular basis.Kevin Klinkenberg (01:00:33.979)That's something that most small towns don't do much of. I wonder if you could speak to a little bit. So like, I always think about that, like in a community there's hardware and there's software and that's like the software side and talk a little bit about what Humboldt has been doing and what that has meant for the overall success of the place. And the credit again goes toward Boulder Humboldt, that group, and then also theirCity Administrator Cole Herder, shout out Cole Herder. Listen, if you want to know what it is to be a good City Administrator in a small town, which is part PR Director, part Public Works Director, part Ombudsman and Accountant and everything else, Cole Herder and Humble Matt Rader in Iowa, those are dues that you need to put on your radar and have a coffee with.In Humboldt, that software analogy is so perfect because that directly connects to their sense of self. And so all of these events take place. For example, they brought back an event called Water Wars in the summer in which the municipal fire department is involved and it's a part parade, part massive citywide water balloon fight, part public water sports.events on the town square. And there is, it is pure frivolity, but they have embraced it because it is a spectacle of joy for the community. And in that capacity as a spectacle of joy, it ceases to be frivolous because again, if you are driving or trying to move your community toa becoming a hope factory, you need spectacles of joy. You need reasons that people can revel in the fact that they live in that place, because so often we are told as rural people, it's a shame you live there. Gosh, wouldn't it be great if you just moved somewhere else? So these spectacles of joy in which people can fully embrace, my gosh, I'm so proud or even because we don't have to defend it.Kevin Klinkenberg (01:02:54.96)And that's typically what a small town person is told they have to do. Defend why you want, why do you live there? No, I'm just going to be happy that I'm here right now. Iola just had their Christmas block party on the square in which, you know, Santa visited and kids played games and the businesses served hot chocolate. And it's, mean, it's, it is very Hallmark movie. By the way, one of the, one of the largesttown squares in Kansas. So come and visit if town squares are your thing. First of all, you and I probably aren't going to hang out at parties, but if that's what you love, come to the Iowa block party for Christmas and you will get a taste of Americana that you have been hankering for. But again, it's just a spectacle of joy and communities need those things.They need those spectacles of joy. And I think that's also to your point earlier about why people are choosing to locate themselves in rural communities, because they can do it in an unabashed way. They don't have to defend why they're doing it. doesn't have to be cool. It doesn't have to be on trend. It can just be a thing that's fun that you can revel in. And in in Humboldt and in Iowa, in Humboldt especially, there have been a group of folks who have sought to addto the community calendar, these spectacles of joy that have become a collective experience of hopefulness and celebration. And I don't know that you need to defend that. And I think we would probably all live in healthier communities if we engaged in those things without the need to qualify why they exist.Jared, I think that's a great place to wrap. Very, very, very interesting. This was a lot of fun. I think at some point down the road, I might like to have you on again and talk some more. There's probably four or five more questions that I still have in my head. I'd love to talk about. But this is super interesting. If people are trying to find you and find your communities, what's the best way to do it?Kevin Klinkenberg (01:05:09.084)ThriveAllenCounty.org. You can find out everything about the organization that I work for and you can connect with all of my colleagues there. You can email me at Jared, J-A-R-E-D at ThriveAllenCounty.org. And that's the best way to get in touch with me. I'm on LinkedIn because I'm trying to be a grownup right now. But other than that, I am willfully disengaged from social media.beyond that, for minutes, not because I'm a rural lead, but because I'm trying to protect my peace in that way. So shoot me an email, find my phone number on, on the internet. And I'd love, I'd love to talk to you. If you are rural and you want to argue with me about this stuff, please, if you are a person living in a different context and you want to chat more about this, I would love to do so. Fantastic. Jared, thanks so much.Good luck with everything and I'll definitely make a point to bring the family down and come visit one of these days. Sounds great. Thank you so much Kevin. Thanks Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We are back with another Rodeo rider episode! This time we sat down with Jeff Chapman. Jeff is from Kansas City, Missouri, and is new to Rodeo Labs this year as he has waded further into the gravel thicket. Jeff started his journey into cycling around the pandemic and is now a two-time participant of Unbound. The race in Kansas has taken on extra meaning for Jeff whose day job is spent out on those same Flint Hills gravel roads. Nevertheless, as is common practice for Rodeo riders, the urge to explore has brought Jeff to expand his racing exploits and explores bigger challenges, most recently taking on a race in Germany. Jeff's story is different from our previous guests, but for me, it was very similar to the countless chats I've had with rodeo owners all across the country at races. Only this time did we turn on the microphones first! Host: Logan Jones-WilkinsGuest: Jeff ChapmanProducer: Logan Jones-Wilkins Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A judging team romance led to a lifetime of breeding cattle together. That's Chris and Sharee Sankey's story in a nutshell. The pair came with cattle roots, but made their own way when a lease opportunity came up outside of Council Grove, Kan. There's no way to put a price tag on the memories made during all the miles traveled to cattle shows, but the couple says that helped them grow their kids and their cow herd both. They now meet their adult children and their families at the same locations. This episode covers their history, how they've seen the industry evolve and a nod to the future — with more than a few stories sprinkled throughout.  HOSTS: Miranda Reiman and Mark McCully  GUESTS: Chris and Sharee Sankey  In the early 1990's Chris and Sharee Sankey purchased the headquarters and part of 6N Ranch near Council Grove, Kan., after leasing the ranch from the Norquists since 1983. With the blessings of the original owners, the ranch was able to stay Sankey's 6N Ranch in the Flint Hills. The Sankey family's roots in agriculture and the Angus breed span a century. They have been building their Angus herd off of intense artificial insemination (AI), producing cattle that will survive primarily on grass in the Flint Hills, but also be successful in the showring. They Sankeys have produced three national Roll of Victory Show Bull of the Year honorees, and many females that have been successful showing on a national level. SPONSOR NOTE: This episode is sponsored by Deer Valley Farms. They invite you to their fall production sale Saturday, Nov. 9, at 10 a.m. near Fayetteville, Tennessee, where they will sell 124 bulls and 139 females lots. Find the salebook and more at https://deervalleyfarm.com/sale/sale-ring/. Don't miss news in the Angus breed. Visit www.AngusJournal.net and subscribe to the AJ Daily e-newsletter and our monthly magazine, the Angus Journal.

Savanna, daughter of the Heartland's Flint Hills, returns to share with me new music making its radio debut on my turn as host of MidCoast Live! On KKFI…a weekly live performance radio show that welcomes all genres of music and spoken word performance.  On this episode you will hear these new bona fide country music selections: L-O-V-E Same Beer, Different Day Honky Tonk Heartbreaker Trailer No.3 In our latest conversation, we re-visit how I first discovered Savanna's songcraft.   It is alive with visual imagery indigenous to the Heartland and illustrative of a path a young generative artist like Savanna navigates every day in an industry…in a world not always kind or supportive of a woman flying solo or fronting a band. Her love for performing started in her grandparent's “Sodie Bar” on karaoke night when she was a little girl and has since taken her all across the country. From dive bars, fairs, festivals and rodeos, to season 20 of The Voice on NBC where she was chosen by Blake Shelton, Savanna has won over audiences with her unique, yet nostalgic country style.  Savanna has won multiple songwriting contests and has been nominated 4 times for Female Vocalist of the Year at the Rocky Mountain Country music awards. She has shared the stage with acts such as Gary Allan, Sara Evans, Justin Moore, Eli Young Band, Reckless Kelly, Granger Smith, Tanya Tucker, Jason Boland, Ned Ledoux and many others. She has 3 studio albums of original music available on all streaming platforms.  To quote Savanna "Country music has always been my shoulder to lean on, no matter what. I can always relate to it, and always rely on it. That's how I want my songs to be for others. Just honest, genuine, country music." Enjoy my conversation with and musical performance by Savanna Chestnut!            

I'm excited to have Melissa Grimmel Schaake on this week's episode! Originally from Maryland, she was raised on a multi-generational grain operation with a passion for livestock and a strong work ethic at a young age. She moved to the midwest to attend Kansas State University. Later, her and her husband, Shane, started a herd together before they even got married. They now proudly own and operate Grimmel Schaake Cattle Company in the Flint Hills of Kansas.    As a first generation cattlewoman, it's incredible that Melissa won the 2024 American Hereford Association's Hereford Herdsman of the Year award. In this episode she shares how she started with herefords, how she stays focused on her “why”, and how she faces adversity with a strong family and friend support system. Melissa also talks about who they serve and how they achieve a superior customer experience.    There's so much wisdom Melissa leaves us to ensure we're following how to be you, do you, for you.   Resources & Links: Heritage Style Join The Directory Of The West Get our FREE resource for Writing a Strong Job Description Get our FREE resource for Making the Most of Your Internship Email us at hello@ofthewest.co Join the Of The West Email List List your jobs on Of The West   Connect with Melissa Grimmel Schaake Grimmel Schaake Cattle Company website Melissa Grimmel Shaake website Follow on Instagram @grimmelshaakecattle and @melissagrimmel Follow on Facebook @grimmelshaakecattle and @melissaphotogdesign   Connect with Jessie: Follow on Instagram @ofthewest.co and @mrsjjarv Follow on Facebook @jobsofthewest Check out the Of The West website Be sure to subscribe/follow the show so you never miss an episode!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alyssa Walsh is the owner and founder of Sweet Briar Creative. She's a proud ‘Cyclone' graduate, an Iowa native, and has recently set roots in Kansas with her husband Daniel. Located in the heart of the Flint Hills, Alyssa is surrounded by the pulse of the cattle industry, which fuels her inspiration daily. Together they run Regal Cattle, an operation focused on equipping youth with the tools to succeed in the show ring for a season, & the genetics to build a business for generations. Alyssa started Sweet Briar Creative from the ground up during her time at Iowa State University. The original goals of the business was to display her self-taught videography and graphic design skills to future employers. As the business grew, she leaned on God's calling for her life and took it full-time following graduation. Alyssa moved to Fort Worth, Texas where the business truly had the chance to grow from a college portfolio into the uniquely specialized marketing agency that it is today. Sweet Briar Creative now serves clients all across the country & even worldwide. Since that leap of faith, Alyssa has loved the opportunity to speak on stages near and far about the importance of starting to chase your dreams now, not later. Committed to igniting the entrepreneurial spark in young people, she is enthusiastic about continuing to grow awareness and drive positive change on this topic. Alongside these efforts, Alyssa recently launched a set of digital courses, instructing eager students of all ages how to learn design and video techniques. Above all she attributes her success in business to God's sovereign plan for her life. She hopes that SBC continues to point her audience towards Christ, and aims to keep Him at the forefront of it all. You can walk with Alyssa on her entrepreneurship adventures at @SweetBriarCreative & @Regal_Cattle Check out PrimePlus Beef Bars: ⁠⁠⁠https://primepluswagyu.com/AGCHICKS⁠⁠⁠ Ag Gear: ⁠https://ag-gear.rfrl.co/egnjj⁠ Shop Ag Chicks Merch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.agchicks.net/shop⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ------------------------------------------------ Connect with Ally Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://agchicks.net⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://instagram.com/agchicks⁠⁠ ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://facebook.com/agchicks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠ Subscribe on YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠ @AGCHICKS --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/agchicks/support

My guest on this epsiode is Drew Goodman, rising senior for the Oklahoma Sooners, and the new Trans-Mississippi Amateur Champion.  He climbed back into the tournament with a final round 64, and outlasted William Sides from SMU in a sudden-death playoff.  It's been a long time since Drew captured a win, but he has been a model of consistency for the Sooners in his collegiate career.  We spoke about the upcoming season, how he prepared himself mentally and physically for each competitive round....and the PGA Tour U implications that lie ahead for him in his senior season. Drew Goodman - Oklahoma Men' GolfElite Amateur Golf Series - Official WebsiteThe Back of the Range - All Access The Back of the Range Collection at Imperial SportsCOUPON CODE: BOTR15 for 15% your entire purchase!Subscribe to The Back of the Range Subscribe in Apple Podcasts and SPOTIFY!Also Subscribe in YouTube,   Google Play , Overcast, Stitcher  Follow on Social Media! Email us:   ben@thebackoftherange.comWebsite: www.thebackoftherange.com  Voice Work by Mitch Phillips

In this episode, Beth & Suzanne chat about the New York Times 100 Books of the 21st Century (so far), they talk about what they've been reading, and more. They also take a trip to Council Grove, Kansas, to visit with Jennifer Kassebaum, owner of Flint Hills Books, about August releases.

Bill Haw Sr., who died at the age of 85 last Thursday, will be remembered for working to preserve the Flint Hills in Kansas and contributing to the revival of Kansas City's historic West Bottoms neighborhood.

The Field Museum has unveiled a new specimen of Archaeopteryx, a species that may hold the key to how ancient dinosaurs became modern birds. Also, a “green glacier” of trees and shrubs is sliding across the Great Plains, burying some of the most threatened habitat on the planet.Remarkably Well-Preserved Archeopteryx Specimen UnveiledThe Field Museum in Chicago just unveiled a new specimen of one of the most important fossils ever: Archaeopteryx. It lived around 150 million years ago, and this species is famous for marking the transition from dinosaurs to birds in the tree of life.The Field Museum now has the 13th known fossil—and it may be the best-preserved one yet. So what makes this specimen so special? And what else is there to learn about Archaeopteryx?To answer these questions, guest host Sophie Bushwick talks with Dr. Jingmai O'Connor, associate curator of fossil reptiles at the Field Museum, about what makes Archaeopteryx such an icon in the world of paleontology and why they're so excited about it.Trees And Shrubs Are Burying Prairies Of The Great PlainsIn the Flint Hills region of Kansas, the Mushrush family is beating back a juggernaut unleashed by humans — a Green Glacier of trees and shrubs grinding slowly across the Great Plains and burying some of the most threatened habitat on the planet.This blanket of shrublands and dense juniper woods gobbling up grassland leads to wildfires with towering flames that dwarf those generated in prairie fires.It also eats into ranchers' livelihoods. It smothers habitat for grassland birds, prairie fish and other critters that evolved for a world that's disappearing. It dries up streams and creeks. New research even finds that, across much of the Great Plains, the advent of trees actually makes climate change worse.Now a federal initiative equips landowners like Daniel Mushrush with the latest science and strategies for saving rangeland, and money to help with the work.Read more at sciencefriday.com.Transcripts for each segment will be available after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

I'm so excited to have Jill Carr, founder of Jill Carr Podcasting, join the conversation today! Jill is my podcast manager and is who helped me launch the Cowgirls Over Coffee podcast last fall. We're going very meta today on the podcast to talk all about podcasts! Jill shares how she got into the podcasting world, how she helps rural women, and the impact podcasts can have on your listeners and your business.    Jill and her husband ranch in the Flint Hills of Kansas with their two little girls. When she's not ranch wife-ing and mom life-ing, she's running her podcast production company Jill Carr Podcasting. Her and her team help to launch and manage rural women entrepreneurs' podcasts so that they can extend their impact, connect on a deeper level with their audience, and grow their business strategically.    Resources & Links: The Four Tendencies by Gretchen Rubin Learn more about Cowgirls Over Coffee Membership Community Join the Cowgirls Over Coffee Membership Community waitlist   Connect with Jill Carr Get Jill's FREE guide: 5 Things to Know Before You Launch a Podcast Learn more about and sign up for Podcast Launch Academy Follow on Instagram @jillcarrpodcasting   Connect with Thea and the community: Follow on Instagram @thea.does.the.things and @cowgirlsovercoffee Follow on Facebook @cowgirlsovercoffee   Make sure to hit subscribe/follow so you never miss a convo!

Bobby's Back & Exploring Flint Hills Gravel - This is Gravel EP:906 Welcome back to This is Gravel here on Gravel Guru. On this episode we bring in special guest Bobby Thompson of Discover Gravel and longtime host of This is Gravel to walk us through the Flint Hills Gravel Ride event that he put on this past weekend. While in the studio Bobby also previewed his entire slate of events in the Flint Hills region for 2024.   Do you have any show ideas or questions you want to have answered? Please send them to Producer Matt via email at matt@gravelguru.com

Cattle Market Update Smoke Emissions from Prescribed Fire in the Flint Hills Commodity Futures Conference   00:01:05 – Cattle Market Update: A cattle market update with Katelyn McCullock, director of the Livestock Marketing Information Center, begins today's show. She discusses current market conditions as well as a part of it that is growing fast this year. LMIC.info   00:12:05 – Smoke Emissions from Prescribed Fire in the Flint Hills: Keeping the show rolling is Jayson Prentice with the Kansas Bureau of Air as he explains a recent study he contributed to that looked into smoke emissions from prescribed burning in the Flint Hills. Measuring Smoke Emissions in The Flint Hills ksfire.org   00:23:05 – Commodity Futures Conference: Joe Parcell, director of the Center for Risk Management at K-State, finishes today's show with a preview of the upcoming Agricultural Commodity Futures Conference. AgCon 2024     Send comments, questions or requests for copies of past programs to ksrenews@ksu.edu.   Agriculture Today is a daily program featuring Kansas State University agricultural specialists and other experts examining ag issues facing Kansas and the nation. It is hosted by Shelby Varner and distributed to radio stations throughout Kansas and as a daily podcast.   K‑State Research and Extension is a short name for the Kansas State University Agricultural Experiment Station and Cooperative Extension Service, a program designed to generate and distribute useful knowledge for the well‑being of Kansans. Supported by county, state, federal and private funds, the program has county Extension offices, experiment fields, area Extension offices and regional research centers statewide. Its headquarters is on the K‑State campus in Manhattan

 In a recent episode of our podcast, Peter Manos, Director of Research at ARC Advisory Group, discussed emissions monitoring and leak detection solutions with industry experts Krishna Uppuluri (VP/GM at mPACT2WO) and Chip Hilarides VP of Quality and Stewardship from Flint Hills Resources.  The discussion offers a deep dive into the transformative power of AI-driven technologies for refineries and the petrochemical industry, showcasing successful case studies and offering insights for companies aiming to enhance their operational efficiency and environmental stewardship. Krishna Uppuluri emphasized the significance of operator adoption and transformation in achieving tangible results in emissions monitoring. Continuing he stated, Molex's success was rooted in a holistic approach that fostered strong partnerships across customers, regulatory bodies, and communities, ensuring the solutions were not just technologically advanced but also widely accepted and effectively implemented. Chip Hilarides shared Flint Hills Resources' journey towards innovating leak detection, spotlighting the pivotal role of partnerships with Molex and the US EPA. By focusing on delivering actionable information to operators, Flint Hills managed to enhance process safety and reduce fugitive emissions, demonstrating the replicability of their success for others in the industry. The conversation underscored the necessity of a long-term, stewardship-focused perspective over short-term, reactive measures, including a long-term approach based on holistic designs and expert-driven capabilities that extend compliance and encourage industries to adopt solutions that prioritize what truly matters for operational and environmental excellence and better stewardship. The episode concluded with a discussion on improving transparency and fostering open dialogue about emissions and leaks. Both Pillai and Halbert stressed the importance of being proactive and community-oriented, highlighting how early leak detection and advanced continuous monitoring not only ensure safety but also strengthen the bond with the communities they serve.--------------------------------------------------------------------------Would you like to be a guest on our growing podcast? If you have an intriguing, thought provoking topic you'd like to discuss on our podcast, please contact our host Jim Frazer View all the episodes here: https://thesustainabilitypodcast.buzzsprout.com

Peter Manos, ARC Advisory Group's Director of Research, discusses with Krishna Uppuluri (VP/GM at mPACT2WO) and Chip Hilarides (VP of Quality and Stewardship at Flint Hills Resources) on the emerging emissions transformation for process industries. Explore insights into successful emissions monitoring and leak detection, emphasizing the pivotal role of operator adoption and collaboration in driving transformative change.

KDWP District Wildlife Biologist, Vickie Cikanek, joins us to chat about working lands for wildlife in the southern Flint Hills and Chautauqua Hills. We get into fun things like blackjack oaks, where trees belong, soil composition, big deer, trailer backing-up, shy snakes, Habitat First, fire culture, passenger pigeons, losing meadowlarks, what people get wrong about quail and deer, Kansas' outstanding landowners and hunters, and much more!Habitat First Program: https://ksoutdoors.com/Services/Private-Landowner-Assistance/Wildlife-Biologists/Habitat-First-Program Follow the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks on Facebook and Instagram. Follow the Kansas Wildlife Federation on Facebook and Instagram.

Today, we chatted with GMCF's 2011-2012 Board of Director President, Terry Arthur. We discussed  Terry's father's legacy of philanthropy and service to the community, his involvement with various non-profit organizations, and the formation of GMCF's first supporting organization, The Community Foundation of The Flint Hills, now named The Goldstein Foundation.GMCFCFAs

This week we are joined by Eric Sutter, race director and founder of the Open Range 200k in Kansas. Learn Eric's unexpected journey to becoming a race director and why the southern region of Kansas deserves its own exploration. Open Range 200k Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use promo code: TheGravelRide for free HRM) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm welcoming Eric Sutter. He's the race director and founder of open range gravel in Kansas . The event takes place in April every year and is going on to its seventh edition in 2024. I'm going to flag this right away. Registrations opening this coming weekend. November 25th after Thanksgiving. So make sure to check it out. If you're interested after hearing. Eric's journey to becoming a gravel race organizer. It's quite a fascinating journey. It's not as someone who started. Riding gravel bikes ages ago. He picked it up after coming into the world of endurance athletics via kayaking. Of all things. I hope you enjoy the conversation, but before we dive in, I do need to thank this week sponsor, hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to. Computer. It's been a minute since I've spoken about the hammerhead crew to computer. It's my daily computer on my gravel bike. I enjoy it. A whole hell of a lot. If you'll pardon my French. It's one of those devices that continues to grow and evolve over time. And I think that's what I like so much about the hammerhead device. I'm getting a software update every few weeks and sometimes it's spot on and something I'm using. And sometimes it's something that I don't know, I need to use. Or would even want to use. For example, it was probably three or four months ago. I got an update around accommodating e-bike features. And since I wasn't an e-bike rider. I didn't have a lot of need for it, but lo and behold, and this is my dirty little secret. I am now the owner of a mountain bike. So I'm excited to explore the features and functionality that I can bring to the crew too. Just to understand battery life of my motor and my battery and make sure I don't get lost out there without the power to come home. Don't worry. I'm still a fan of peddling my bike. I just thought it would be a lot of fun. Getting an E mountain bike. The other thing, as you know, if you've heard me talk about the hammerhead career to you before. I love the elevation and climb feature that they rolled out quite some time ago with the climbing feature, you can see what's ahead of you in any climb that you're approaching, whether you have a map loaded or not. For me, it's really helpful if I'm a new terrain, just understanding am I in for a long grind or is this a shorter climb where I can really push. As we're coming into winter, it's important that the crew too has both touchscreen capabilities. But also physical buttons. So if you've got some heavy duty gloves on, you can still manipulate the device and go to all the screens. You need. Right now our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to simply visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code. The gravel ride at checkout. To get yours today. This is an exclusive offer. So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get that free heart rate monitor with the purchase of your career to go to hammerhead.io today. Add both items to your cart and use the promo code, the gravel ride. Would that business behind us let's get right into my conversation with Eric. [00:03:39]Craig Dalton (host): Eric, welcome to the show. Thanks, Craig. Thanks for having me on. I didn't think this was a long time coming, but as we just remembered, this is about three and a half years in the making since our first email exchange. [00:03:52]Eric Sutter: That's right. Yeah. We, uh, we sent a couple of emails back and forth and then I think life just happened and, you know, stuff gets, uh, gets passed on and, and, uh, but it's good to, it's good to be here. Good to finally be on and, uh, and get to talk with you and your, your listeners. [00:04:05]Craig Dalton (host): Right on. Yeah. Shout out to Wade for reconnecting us. Telling me a little bit about your story, which I see you gave me in your 2020 email. So I'm excited to talk about both the OpenRange 200k, but also I think it's important when we talk about events and event organizing, just to hear a little bit about your backstory. So to set the stage, why don't you just let the listener know, where'd you grow up? What'd you do as a kid? How'd you get into endurance athletics? I know there's a lot to this story, so we can take it [00:04:33]Eric Sutter: slowly, bit by bit. Yeah. And feel free to interrupt me at any point to, to dive in more. Um, so I, I grew up in Pratt. Um, it's about a, uh, an hour and a half West of Wichita, which most people were probably familiar with the general area of where Wichita is, uh, in, in South central Kansas. Um, it's a town of about 6, 000 and, um, just a small. Independent, isolated community, um, and so in high school, uh, played sports, played, uh, baseball and football and wrestled. And then, um, yeah, uh, went from there, went to college at Kansas State. Um, I did Army ROTC. And so I knew, I knew at that point, like, going into the Army is what I wanted to do. And, uh, and so did that commissioned, um, and actually, uh, went into aviation. So flew, um, and still currently fly helicopters, uh, for the army. Um, and [00:05:25]Craig Dalton (host): did that initially take you outside of Kansas when you first [00:05:28]Eric Sutter: deployed? Yeah, it did. So, um, and, and I really had, had only lived in the Midwest, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma growing up. And so, uh, my first, uh, first kind of visit outside besides just. You know, uh, having vacation somewhere was, yeah, down to Southern Alabama, yeah, which was kind of a culture shock. So, um, went down there for, for flight training and then, um, I lived in, uh, Tennessee, Kentucky area for, uh, for most of my active duty, duty years. [00:05:57]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Yeah. I mean, I imagine most of us who haven't been in the military have an understanding that there's a physical fitness component of it. Do you, did the soldiers tend to recreate athletically? Did you tend to? Yeah, [00:06:10]Eric Sutter: yeah, definitely. So for, for aviation, uh, ultimate frisbee is kind of a, the, uh, the sport of choice. Um, okay. We play. So, uh, you know, and some people have like, you know, are, are doing marathons and stuff like that. But, um, you know, and I, I, I tried to keep, keep in shape, uh, it's always been important for me. So, you know, trying to do, um, you know, we have our, our physical fitness tests and everything like that. So, uh, try to be in, in this. [00:06:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, so it sounds like probably a little bit of running here and there. Oh yeah, definitely. [00:06:40]Eric Sutter: Ultimate frisbee. [00:06:41]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Where else did the military journey take you? [00:06:46]Eric Sutter: So yeah so, um, you know, Tennessee and Kentucky is where I was stationed, uh, and then did some deployments. So, uh, deployed to Iraq in uh, 2005, 2006. Then went to Afghanistan in 2014, and then another deployment to Kuwait in 2017, 2018. Okay. So yeah. [00:07:02]Craig Dalton (host): And then. Yeah. Go ahead. Then you end up back [00:07:05]Eric Sutter: in Kansas. Yeah. So then, uh, so then ended up back in Kansas and kind of in the middle of that went off active duty and joined the National Guard and in reserves. And so now I'm a reserve pilot. [00:07:15]Craig Dalton (host): Okay, great. Well, first off, thank you for your service. Yeah. And it sounds like along the way you were sort of, as many of us do in our twenties and thirties, kind of Dipping a toe in the water into different sports. Yeah. So what [00:07:29]Eric Sutter: were you doing along the way? Yeah, so Really is when I came off active duty and we moved back to Kansas City. I was looking for something to stay active and I watched the news one night and they were showing these Kayakers that were going across the state of Missouri and I looked at my wife. I was like that that sounds kind of neat You know, I think I think I'd like to do that and again, looking for something to stay active. I was, I was playing, um, uh, ultimate Frisbee with, uh, with a local little club, but I wanted something a little bit more to, to, to, um, really stay, stay involved in something to stay active. So the first year [00:08:06]Craig Dalton (host): of waterways, did you have access to, to kind of learn the sport of kayaking? [00:08:09]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've got a couple of lakes around. Um, and so Uh, we'll, uh, we'll do that. And there was a club that, that would meet up. And so I, you know, that's the great thing with like Facebook and, and things like that. It's finding these little clubs and organizations. And so, uh, yeah, I met up, I found a race that was happening. Um, oh man, going back, just thinking about this, like the first race, I think it was 12 miles and it was kind of a show and go. No, you know, no awards or anything like that. Just, you know, bring your boat and let's go, go race them. I had no clue what I was doing. I had no [00:08:47]Craig Dalton (host): idea how long a 12 mile kayak race would take someone. Um, [00:08:51]Eric Sutter: so generally, uh, you know, in our, our kayaks, you should be able to do about, well, five miles an hour. Um, is, is it kind of a moderate to fast pace? Um, seven miles an hour, you're, you're, you're looking at, um, so especially on flat water. Uh, so yeah, so a 12 mile would be, yeah, it'd be about two hours. Gotcha. [00:09:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I've done a little bit of paddling and there's definitely an analogy to pedaling in just in terms of the cadence of your arms and your body and that repetitive motion that every time I've rode or paddled, like it does appeal to me much in the same way riding a bike appeals to [00:09:29]Eric Sutter: me. Right. Yeah. And it's kind of the same thing, you know, you can go to a certain level of exertion, um, and then like your gains just don't go much higher for the amount of energy it takes to go faster. You just hit that, that drag, uh, coefficient and it's, uh, but yeah. [00:09:47]Craig Dalton (host): So it sounds like you got sucked into the sport of kayaking at that point. I [00:09:51]Eric Sutter: did. Yeah. Uh, like I said, the first time it was, I was terrible. Uh, I didn't have any technique. I didn't know what I was doing. Uh, got out there, had this boat that was like 60 pounds, just this heavy plastic boat, um, with a paddle that, you know, was not efficient in the water at all. Um, but what I found was like, the people there were awesome. They were just, you know, they didn't give me a hard time for having a shoot. Plastic, you know, boat or anything like that. And they're all in these, as you'd know, in California, like the surf skis, I mean, these 18, 20 foot long, you know, um, 22 inch wide, uh, sit on top kayaks. And, um, and they just, like I said, they just. And so, but again, what I kind of, what I learned was that, you know, these people are just really good people, um, really great people. And I just, that's, that's probably more of what sucked me into it was just these, these awesome people that I was, I was getting to meet and everything. So, and, and the benefit of staying, staying active. Yeah. [00:10:50]Craig Dalton (host): You know, it's so interesting with endurance athletic and particularly like the more extreme ones, like. Ultra running or something like that. The communities are just like where, what you want, show up, show up with a good attitude. Let's all get this done. And it is so refreshing [00:11:05]Eric Sutter: and inviting. It is. It is. Yeah. I can't say enough. And those, those people still good friends with, with several of them that I've met that first, that first race. And this was 10, 10, 12 years ago now. [00:11:17]Craig Dalton (host): So, so tell me about this event across Missouri. One, I have to ask what Waterway goes all the way across Missouri. So [00:11:24]Eric Sutter: it's the and two, how long is it? Yeah, so it's the, uh, it's the Missouri River. Uh, you start in Kansas City and it, uh, it's a 340 mile race. Um, and that generally takes the fastest, can do it in, um, the mid 30 hours, 36, 35 hours, I think is the. The fastest time, uh, and you benefiting [00:11:46]Craig Dalton (host): from a bit of current a little [00:11:47]Eric Sutter: bit so you can get two, two to three mile an hour, uh, add on to your, your flat water speed at that point. And it, and it varies in different places, um, where other, um, other waterways come in, you know, other, other rivers will, will meet the Missouri, you kind of get a boost and whatnot. So as you get closer to St. Louis, uh, you get a little bit faster. Okay. [00:12:11]Craig Dalton (host): And, you know, with a 35 hour race for the fastest people in the world, you know, many are going 40, 50 hours. I imagine. Are you, what does it look like stopping and refueling? How does that work in a kayak event? Yeah. So [00:12:23]Eric Sutter: every, I'd say. At least every 50 miles is a, is a ramp, a boat ramp on the Missouri river. And so you, um, you have a ground crew and they meet you at each place and they've got, you know, all your, it depends on how you set them up. I mean, mine was my parents. Um, and so I had set up bags and resupply and stuff like that. And they would have some extra water bladders. And so I'd swap, swap out water bladders and swap out, um, you know, my nutrition and put it in a little cooler behind my, my seat and then, uh, and then go on. And so. Yeah, it's, I did it three years, uh, the first year I, I, I was, uh, I was in an outrigger and I DNF'd, uh, that year I made about a hundred and... I think 130 miles and, um, I just had a tremendous, uh, back pain and, um, and just wasn't, wasn't going to work to, to go on. And so I kind of came back after that and figured out, okay, I want to do this a little bit different. So I got a canoe, uh, that was really light, uh, carbon, uh, or I'm sorry, Kevlar, um, Kevlar fiber canoe and did that the second, uh, my second event. Um, And then, um, and the third time I got to a surf ski and did it in a surf ski. Okay. And so that was, was a lot of fun and, uh, and it goes a lot, a lot faster. [00:13:42]Craig Dalton (host): Well, listener will have to forgive me in this detour down to kind of racing, but I just, I just find it fascinating. [00:13:49]Eric Sutter: Well, and it's, you know, it's interesting, uh, being a race director now, like a lot of the things that I. Uh, I, I learned it's from, you know, it's from the kayak world and go into different kayak races, uh, things I wanted to do and things I, you know, I wanted to make sure that we, we didn't do. And so, um, so yeah, it's, it, it played a role into the creation of. And of what I do and the race. [00:14:14]Craig Dalton (host): Interesting. So at some point, do you wind down your kayaking career, or are you [00:14:19]Eric Sutter: still doing that? No, I, I wound it down. Um, I think I own, I own a, a paddle still and a life jacket, but I don't have any boats anymore. Um, and so I tried doing both for awhile and I just found, like, I wasn't, I wasn't doing anything in the kayaking side. Um, and the long distance kayaking. It really takes a toll on your ground crew and my parents don't live local. Um, and I was, I was using my, my wife's father. Um, and they're just, you know, they're, they're getting older and it's just, it wasn't fair to them to, uh, have to, uh, have them help me out. And, and, um, and my parents would help on the MR 340 that I went across Missouri. And, uh, yeah, it was just getting to be to where that long distance was, was. Kind of a struggle for, for getting a crew to help me out. Yeah, it makes [00:15:09]Craig Dalton (host): sense at this point in the podcast. I don't think we've mentioned a bicycle once. When did bicycles, when did bicycles and gravel riding come into your [00:15:19]Eric Sutter: life? Yeah. So that's an interesting story too. Like you said, we got all these different little, uh, uh, tidbits that, that, uh, spider webs or however you want to call them. Um, but, uh, in 20. See, in 2017, I was getting ready for a deployment to Kuwait. Um, I, I, I knew I wasn't gonna be able to kayak in Kuwait and I was kind of looking for another challenge and I started getting into running. I did a half marathon in April, uh, of that year and, uh, thought, well, this is, you know, I really liked it. And, and equipment wise, you know, running just requires your shoes. And, um, and so I thought this was. This would be kind of a neat, uh, neat sport to get into. Uh, and I think it was May, May or June of that year. Um, I was running and injured my knee and I, I don't know what happened. I had an MRI done on it. Uh, it was kind of inconclusive, but it was enough to where, um, I knew that running was now not, not a good choice for me to continue on doing if I wanted to walk, uh, later, so. Uh, so I kind of hung that up and then as I got into Kuwait, uh, got involved with a site, they had a cycling class there. So I got involved with, with cycling, um, overseas and, uh, I've had some friends that did, um, dirty Kansas at the time and, um, talked with them. And I kind of looked and I was like, man, this, this, this looks like fun. Like this could be the sport I get into next and didn't need necessarily didn't need a ground crew to. Uh, to shuttle my, uh, nutrition from one spot to another. I can carry it on me or on the bike or have a, you know, aid station. And so, uh, so then I just kind of got the bug and got interested in looking at different gravel races and, and I knew. I knew based on just a little bit of watching and the friends that I knew that did gravel, um, like my personality wasn't a road, road type, um, you know, it wasn't necessarily mountain bike type, but like the gravel seemed to resonate with, with my personality and the stuff I had done before with the kayaking. [00:17:22]Craig Dalton (host): Were you able to acquire a bike while you were in Kuwait or did you have to wait till you came [00:17:26]Eric Sutter: back home? Yeah. So in Kuwait, um, they have a program over there where. Uh, we could rent a bike over there. Um, they were nothing, they were nothing special. They were Mongoose, um, you know, Walmart, uh, kind of mountain bikes, full suspension, you know, but it was something and it, uh, at least got me back into cycling. Uh, and I wrote that thing, I mean, I probably wrote it more than anyone else, uh, around there. I wrote it when it was 120 degrees out and, uh, and whatnot. Um, and it was kind of interesting because as the idea for, for open range was, was kind of festering in my head. Um, and I knew it was sandy out in, in, uh, around Pratt. Um, of course, I'm in Kuwait, which is a big desert. So I would test the bike on different types of sand there and like, okay, yeah, you can do this. And so, yeah, it was, uh, it's kind of an interesting go with that. But yeah, they do have bikes over there and was able to get miles in there. [00:18:26]Craig Dalton (host): When you came back to the States, did you get your first proper [00:18:29]Eric Sutter: gravel bike? I did. And in fact, I ordered it while I was in Kuwait. Um, I ordered, uh, it was a Diamondback Honjo off of Amazon. It was on, on sale for a really. Really good price with, with pretty decent specs. And so, uh, I had it, uh, delivered, uh, to the house. I just told the wife like, Hey, you're going to get this box. It's going to be, uh, pretty big. Yeah. Just be careful with it, you know, and whatnot. So yeah, so she got it and, uh, had it ready for me when I, when I got home. So, and were you in Kansas city [00:19:01]Craig Dalton (host): at that point? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you, you come home, you got your, your diamond back finally on a proper gravel bike. Did you sort of immediately start getting into the community and talking to people and figuring out where to ride or did that take a while? [00:19:17]Eric Sutter: Yeah, no, it, it, uh, well, so I guess we should really even back up. Before that. So, um, cause we, I, we can't go on without talking about, without actually starting to talk about open range. If, if that's cool with you, um, because that, that really became, that came first in a way. That's so interesting. [00:19:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Walmart, uh, mongoose in the desert and you're thinking about creating a race. [00:19:42]Eric Sutter: Right. So, and even to, to back up even more, um, if, if the, the listeners and the viewers can follow, but, um, while I was kayaking, I wanted to become a race director and set up my own race, uh, kayak race. And so, um, I had an interest and I, I kind of figured out a place to do it, uh, down in Wichita. And I was just, I mean, it was very early on in my, my process for kind of researching it. But, um, but I wanted to, I really felt like I wanted to. Put something together. So then, uh, now fast forward back to Kuwait, uh, as I'm getting into looking at cycling and going to spin class. And I've got this Mongoose mountain bike that I'm, uh, riding all over, over the base. Um, I get this feeling again that, you know, I got this calling that I need to put a, put a race on and it's not going to be a kayak race. It's going to be a bike race. And so I had some time and, and just started researching, uh, gravel bike races and, um, and. Uh, where I'm from in Pratt, just south of there is the, the Gypsum Hills, Medicine Hills or Red Hills. They go by several different names. And uh, I remember when we first came to that area, just how beautiful it was. And so I thought at first that I was just going to put this, it wasn't even going to be a race. It was just going to be me riding from, uh, Pratt where I have some family still. I was going to go down, there's a, uh, a little, uh, bar in a very sleepy town of about maybe 200 people, if that, and, uh, go down there and have a burger, and then, uh, ride back, and that would be about a 60 mile ride, and then it kind of just, one thing led to another, and I was like, well, what if What if, what if we made this a race? What if we made this, you know, a ride down there? People get to see this awesome, uh, area of the country that no one knows about. Um, and so it kind of, one thing led to another and it just, it developed in. And okay, well, what if we did this and what if we did that? Um, and so, yeah, it just, it just blossomed from there. I don't know if you've ever had anything, but it just, it wouldn't leave my mind, uh, for like three or four months. I mean, it just, every waking moment I was thinking about it, I was thinking, okay, what, how can we do this? How do we solve that problem? What do we do for this? And, uh, yeah, I just, I just, it really felt like a calling that like, it would feel weird not to do it, you know, at that point, even though I had never, I'd never been to a gravel race, uh, myself. Uh, it just felt weird. Like if I didn't do this. And if we didn't do it at this point, it was never going to get done. And yeah, if I didn't do it, it just, it was going to feel weird. It's [00:22:22]Craig Dalton (host): fascinating to sort of learn about, and you'll tell us about in the future, like how the event ended up not having the context of. Trying to be an unbound or trying to be a BWR, any of these other things you may have seen or heard about, you had this unique experience with kayak racing and endurance athletics through a totally different filter and came back with this vision for creating the open range. It's super interesting. Yep. [00:22:47]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, uh, it, it was, it was interesting the first, you know, the first year and. And I think it went split. I mean, it really had a lot of great comments. Uh, in fact, the timer guy, uh, he, uh, he saw that I was a first time race director and, and, uh, he said later, he's like, yeah, I was, I was really worried because usually first time race directors, you know, don't know what they're doing and I've got to do everything for them. And, and, uh, he's like, you, you had this thing. And, uh, and they'd actually asked later on if I would help out with some, some of their races, uh, stuff like that. But, uh, yeah, it was, you know, not having the, not having been to one, I didn't know, You know, besides doing some research and watching YouTube videos, I didn't, you know, I didn't have anything that I was trying to, to make it. I didn't, you know, road wise or terrain wise, um, everything was open game to me because I wasn't trying to be like another race. So yeah, [00:23:45]Craig Dalton (host): you, before we started recording you, we were talking about the state of Kansas and how different the geography can be as some listeners may be familiar with the Flint Hills where unbound gravel occurs. Maybe take a moment and describe in your own words, how is it different around Pratt compared to what people may have seen around [00:24:06]Eric Sutter: Emporia? Yeah, so, so Pratt, like right around Pratt, it's actually fairly, fairly flat, um, some undulating hills, but as you go south, and it doesn't take long, um, coming out of Pratt. And as you go south, you start getting into the gypsum hills and it starts off a little bit like Emporia, just some nice rolling hills. Um, and then about Medicine Lodge, um, just south of Sun City. Uh, so about 35 miles in, it's just, it's like nothing you've ever seen. It's like, uh, it looks like Arizona, uh, Mars. It's, uh, I've heard, you know, all, all of that. It's, um, it's red dirt, it's mesas and buttes with white gypsum rock. So you've got these colors that are just. Beautiful. I mean, red dirt with white rock and green grass, uh, just, just amazing. And then just the topography, just these steep buttes and bases that are out of nowhere. Uh, just, just an amazing, uh, amazing course. Yeah, that's [00:25:07]Craig Dalton (host): so, it's so unexpected sort of as someone with, with very little to no experience in Kansas and certainly not on the, the dirt roads and more rural areas of Kansas. So for the listener, we've been talking about it. It's sort of. It's on the southern side, the southern tip of, uh, of Kansas and also sort of the western. Is that [00:25:25]Eric Sutter: right? Yeah. If you, [00:25:28]Craig Dalton (host): as the route goes, you're heading towards Oklahoma and then back. [00:25:31]Eric Sutter: Right. Yeah. If you were to take Kansas and, um, and fold it in half, uh, east and west, and that line right there is about where Pratt Medicine Lodge is. And so we are, uh, yeah, basically in, uh, the start of western Kansas, uh, and then, about, uh, we're about. Forty five miles north of the Oklahoma border is where Pratt is. Okay. Gotcha. [00:25:54]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And you were describing the terrain. I mean, obviously like these vistas and buttes and red dirt. Are you on dirt roads? Are you on double track? What's sort of the mixture that you ended up achieving? [00:26:06]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so it's a little of both. several different, uh, types of terrain. Um, Pratt is known for a lot of brick roads. So when you're actually in the town, you start off on a brick road. Um, and there's several brick roads in town. It's kind of a neat, uh, just, you know, I grew up on Main Street and at the time it was a brick highway. Um, but yeah, you start off on brick, you get some asphalt, um, and then you go into some, some dirt. More dirt roads, um, there is some gravel, but a lot of it is, is more of a, a dirt, uh, sand base and, um, yeah, you go down there and then when you get down into, uh, the gypsum hills, we've got, um, permission from some landowners and they let us go on their, uh, their ranches. And so then you've got in, you go into the double track, uh, and sometimes, uh, sometimes it's just cattle trails. Uh, sometimes it's. We're trying to connect areas and, uh, the rancher just mows a swath of grass and you've now got to go through the grass to get to the next spot. So, um, it really is a. It's a unique type of course. Um, there's, you know, we do put some pavement in there, so it's not completely all gravel. Um, but that pavement, I think, helps, uh, helps people a little bit get a break from some of the rougher stuff. But, uh, but it's just a good mixture of Of, uh, pavement and, and dirt roads and just some incredible, I mean, there's, there's almost places where you think you're on a cyclocross course, places where you think you're on a mountain bike course, places where you think you're on a road race and people, places where you think you're on a gravel race. So it's got, it's got something for everyone. Yeah. [00:27:47]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. It's got something for everyone to love and probably something for everybody to hate, depending on their skillset. That's right. [00:27:53]Eric Sutter: Yeah. In fact, somebody once said like. It was like, man, your race is like the great equalizer. Like there's no, like there's no bike or no style that is suited for that rate. Like that is just suited exactly for that. So yeah, I took that as a great compliment. [00:28:10]Craig Dalton (host): As you should. That's awesome. So let's get into some specifics. What are the distances of the [00:28:16]Eric Sutter: events? Yeah. So we've got a 200 K, which is our main, uh, main event. In fact, I was, when I created it, that was the only. Only distance I was gonna do. I didn't care about a shorter distance, just gonna do a 200k. And as I was developing it, I had several people ask me if I would put together a shorter, shorter course that they didn't feel comfortable doing, uh, doing 200 K, uh, or about 126 miles. And they wanted a shorter, uh, shorter version. So, um, we have, uh, I call it the 100 K plus, and it's a 100 K plus because one year somebody got upset because, um, I was calling it the 100 K and it was like 68 or 69 miles. And so they're like, you know, a hundred K, 63 miles, this is 68 miles. So, okay. I'll put a plus on the end of it. [00:29:01]Craig Dalton (host): As someone who watched their odometer in the Leadville 100, click over to 100 and find myself not at the finish line, I definitely resonate with those remarks. [00:29:10]Eric Sutter: Right. No, I did the same thing too when I raced, and so yeah, I get it. [00:29:16]Craig Dalton (host): Um, and is it, is it actually an out and back on the same, same roads? [00:29:21]Eric Sutter: No, so, uh, the 200 is, is almost a complete loop. Um, it, there's very few, uh, roads that you'll be on twice. The, the, the 100 K plus is a kind of like a, a little bit of like a lollipop. So you go out, you make a, a. Fairly good size loop, probably about a 30 or 40 mile loop. And then I get, well, maybe a little bit less, but yeah, 30 mile loop. And then, and then ride kind of the same road route back. And then we also have, Oh, go ahead. Yeah. [00:29:50]Craig Dalton (host): I was going to say there's a third option for how to participate. [00:29:53]Eric Sutter: There is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so there's the tour. And so, um, that goes on the 200 mile or the 200, excuse me, 200 K course. Uh, but it's. It's split up into two days. And so you ride about 78 miles the first day, uh, camp at a, uh, authentic guest ranch out there. And then, um, and they have, uh, catered, uh, dinner and breakfast for you. And then you, you ride back. And so, yeah, [00:30:19]Craig Dalton (host): it's an option I hadn't really seen before in that same context. There's obviously like the XL version of any given race that you're out there on your own and you're expected to sleep in a ditch. But I really liked, as I was reading the description of the 200k tour, that you go out, you could have dropped your camping gear off, or you could stay in the lodge. Now I'm learning that you can get a nice meal. Yep. That sounds like a great way to spend a weekend. It [00:30:42]Eric Sutter: really is. And I wanted, the purpose of that was I wanted riders. To see, cause, and the reason why I only wanted the 200k course is because that's where the really cool, uh, route is, and the really cool topography, you still get some of it on the, the 100k, don't get me wrong, but the 200k you see quite a bit more, and I knew there were riders that wouldn't feel comfortable in their ability to, to do that all at once, and so by putting this together, Tour together it kind of your own pace. It's non competitive you get to see it and then spend as much time as you want And then and then finish it up the next day. [00:31:20]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah for the 200 K and the 100 K is the Orientation that this is a race and some people are going for it and there wants to be a winner [00:31:29]Eric Sutter: Yeah, definitely on the 200 K that Yeah, we we do podium for that the 100 K I never did a podium for until last year and, uh, and so finally last year, and we'll see if I keep doing that. I mean, I'm most likely we'll keep a podium for the 100k, um, because there are people that were taking it pretty seriously. And so, um, so I felt like it was worth it. Awarding those people, uh, for, for doing that. Yeah. And so, yeah. But yeah, the 200 K is again, the big one. Uh, the 100 k, uh, yeah, we'll still, we'll still give you an award for the top top three male and female, but it's just those, those two categories. Yeah. [00:32:08]Craig Dalton (host): And what year, so 2024. How many additions will we have seen at that point? [00:32:13]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so this will be our seventh year, which is just, yeah, it's just incredible. Um, our, you know, our first year I, I told my wife, I was like, we need. We need about a hundred, I think I counted like a hundred and six people based on, uh, Uh, our, our fees that, you know, to, to kind of break even. And, uh, and I told her, I was like, you know, if we don't get that, um, we'll count this as kind of a learning lesson, you know, uh, you know, some people pay for an MBA, some people pay, you know, for other experiences, um, you know, this will be an experience and this will be a learning experience, uh, whether we have a hundred people, whether we have 50 people or whether we have 300 people. Um, and, and if we have to pay. Pay for that experience. Great. Um, you know, hopefully we can, you know, have a success and, and whatnot. So, um, so yeah, our first year, like I said, I, I, my goal was to get right around a hundred, I think the first day we had like 60 or 70 people registered the first day and it was just like completely blew my mind. I was like, okay, this is interesting. You [00:33:16]Craig Dalton (host): know, that's what I think that is interesting about the Midwest. I think, you know, obviously there's so many passionate cyclists there, so many of them either have done Unbound or can't get into Unbound or are training for Unbound because I think your events a little bit earlier in the year. It's pretty natural that there's just going to be this pent up demand. And if you give riders a good experience, they're going to come back and they're going to tell their [00:33:39]Eric Sutter: friends, right? Yeah, yeah, that's, uh, and we've grown, we've grown every year since then. Um, we've, we held it in 2020 when, um, a lot of races were, we're kind of taking a break that year. Um, and we had to adjust it and that was a learning lesson too. Cause we, uh, you know, the race is at the end of April COVID hit, uh, what about the middle of the end of March? Yeah. So we knew, you know, we had to make a decision pretty quickly, uh, that we're going to have to at least postpone it. Uh, we moved it to June, um, and it's kind of funny if you watch the COVID numbers, like it took this dip right the weekend of the race and then the weekend after it climbed back up. Not, you know, we weren't a super spreader by any means, but, uh, you know, it's just the way it happened. Uh, yeah, [00:34:25]Craig Dalton (host): it's, it's, I think it's so interesting, just the business of event production as well that people tend to forget about. I mean, you look at how much it costs to register, but. On your end, as I know and understand, you know, there's just so much that goes into it from catering to, you know, about podium structure to PA system, to making sure there's safety out there on the course, a sweep aid stations. Like it's definitely to your point, like you, you couldn't start that first race without committing a certain amount of dollars out of your pocket, the unknown, whether you were going to a hundred, more than a hundred people that's joined. [00:35:02]Eric Sutter: Right. And that's what, that's kind of like, I'm, I'm very passionate about like grassroots cause I get it, you know, for the people that are starting races, um, that they're taking a, you know, they're, they're taking a chance on, you know, creating something and, and potentially being out of money, uh, you know, potentially not going how they wanted it to go their first year, uh, learning lessons. Um, so, you know, we, uh, we had a. A local race, uh, in Kansas a couple weekends ago, and I wasn't able to attend it, but, um, I, I, they would hit me up with questions and I would kind of give them some, some help and whatnot. And so it just kind of neat to watch them and then to get, hear the responses that people that went to that race, uh, that absolutely loved it. And so it's like, okay, cool. This is, this is neat. That's [00:35:47]Craig Dalton (host): great. How many people are you hoping to get to the 7th edition of the Open [00:35:51]Eric Sutter: Range? Yeah, so I think 500 is, is our, kind of our sweet spot. Um, we've been, uh, we've been right around there the last couple of years. So, um, yeah, we, we kind of capped it right around 500 and, and kind of hope to get, get to that amount. It's, uh, it works well for the community. We can do more, um, and if we get that. I think if we get that continually, then, you know, we'll look at that, open it some more. But, uh, yeah, we can, that's kind of what we're looking at. [00:36:24]Craig Dalton (host): What day is the race on the [00:36:25]Eric Sutter: weekend? Yeah, it's on a Saturday. Um, and then the tour again would be a, uh, the Friday and Saturday, but yeah, it's Saturday for the majority of the people. Um, yeah, what's great about Pratt is there's a community college there and because of the community college, there's a lot of hotels and decent hotels, uh, too. So, um, there's, yeah, there's always plenty of room, plenty of hotels and, and they're cheap. They don't gouge, um, you know, the riders coming in for open range. Yeah. So, I mean, for under a hundred bucks, you can get it. A decent hotel room. So it works out, works out real well for him. Just to give [00:36:59]Craig Dalton (host): me a sense for, cause obviously 200 K in Kansas might be different than 200 K in California. What are the, you know, what are the fastest men and women tend to finish in? [00:37:08]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, um, we've had a couple of years where the leaders are, uh, they're riding above a 20 mile an hour average, which is just incredible. Like that is well beyond my ability. Um, I don't, I, I don't get how they do it. I really, because if you see some of our terrain, uh, I mean, you have to dismount. We, in fact, I put a post out today, uh, a reel on Instagram and, um, the leader, you see the, the two, the one of the two, um, they're actually dismounted and running their bikes up of a hill, um, in that, that little reel. And so, uh, yeah, for them to maintain a 20 mile an hour. Um, I'd say the average is probably a 15, 14 to 15, uh, pace, uh, and so, and then we have a, a nine hour, uh, cap on the, the 200 K. [00:37:58]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha. And are, are people able to ride together in some sections and, you know, ride in a Peloton or does the terrain not allow for that? [00:38:04]Eric Sutter: Yeah. Yeah. In most sections they can. Um, I do caution them because the roads there are sandy, um, that, um, You know, you can hit a sandy spot and then not be going as fast as you were a second ago. And if you're too close, then that can cause some issues with, with some riders. But, um, but by and large, it's, uh, like I said, it's, it's, it's, it's usually a hard packed, uh, sandy, not, not like beach sand the whole, whole way. [00:38:31]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. And then at the completion of the event, what kind of experience do the, uh, participants get to enjoy? [00:38:37]Eric Sutter: Yeah, so we have live music. We've had live music every year. Um, we've got, uh, Aaron Travis Band is a local, uh, he calls it ag rock. So kind of red dirt, but, uh, he's, he's actually a farmer. Um, he lives in a town, the same town that, uh, Martina McBride is from. Uh, and sharing Kansas. And so, um, yeah, he's, he's a great, uh, great asset to have. And he, he gets, uh, several of his friends to come and play. And so they have, um, you know, we usually have live music from, uh, right around noon till, uh, six or seven in the evening. And so, uh, so, and it's right on the finish line. So as the riders are coming up, uh, the brick road, uh, they've got a band there playing, cheering them on people, you know, sitting out watching them come across the finish line. And so, um, they come across the finish line. They get a, a pint glass and a finisher patch for, for finishing. Uh, and then every year we, we change our logo just a little bit. Like we have our, our general logo that we've used from, from year one. Um, and that's kind of our, our standard logo. Uh, but then, uh, we kind of make a tweak every year to, to logo design. And so like the pint glasses are kind of collector's items because, uh, each year is different. Same, same with the t shirt each year. You've got a different design, uh, on the t shirt. Um, and that's one thing I took from back to the kayaking is, uh, uh, the race had a, a, a decal and every year was a different. And so, um, so you always wanted to see the different, and you could look at one and they never have the year on them, but you can look at them like, oh, okay, that was a, you know, a 2012 a year or whatever. So, uh, kind of the same, yeah, same way with us. So, yeah, so, yeah, so they come to the finish line, they've got, uh, we give them a free meal as well, uh, some good old Kansas barbecue and, um, and, uh, they pick up all that stuff and, and have a, have a good old time. [00:40:29]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, sounds amazing. So, I mean, I love how you've described the terrain and the challenges the riders are going to undertake and the different formats you have remind us again the date of the event. When's registration opening up and what's my final question? I can't even remember any, Oh, how, how do people can find you? [00:40:48]Eric Sutter: Yeah. So, uh, so, so registration actually opens up on Saturday. Uh, Saturday is the 25th, uh, for, uh, those that, uh, may be listening to this later of, of November. So, uh, 25th, November at nine central. Um, and we have kind of a, a neat thing where it's a race before the race. So, um. We, uh, we kind of want to have a little competition to see who can be the fastest to register. And if you are the fastest, the fastest male and female that register for the 200k, We actually refund your registration fees, so you get to ride for free. So, uh, I love that. It's, it's kind of neat. Uh, one, it was kind of interesting. One year we had, had a gentleman that, uh, I think for like two years in a row, he was like the number two guy. It was just like, I felt so bad for him. Like, dude, you are so close every year. He just could not crack the, uh, Crack the, the win on that one, but, uh, yeah, so you don't have to be fast on the bike. You just gotta be fast on the keyboard and, uh, you'll get your registration fee, uh, fee comped. I'd love that. I'd love [00:41:50]Craig Dalton (host): that. I'd love to see others figure out how to do that in their registration process. [00:41:54]Eric Sutter: Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's fun. So yeah. So this Saturday, November 25th at nine, uh, nine central, nine a. m. central is our open registration. And then the race itself is April 27th is that Saturday. So if you're doing the tour, of course, that'd be the 26th and 27th, but. [00:42:11]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Amazing, Eric. Well, thank you for all the information. This conversation was a long time coming, but it was well worth it. The event sounds amazing. I love your story and, uh, I wish you all the best of luck this [00:42:23]Eric Sutter: year. Thanks so much. And yeah, yeah. You can check us out, uh, openrangegravel. com. And that's kind of our handle as well for, uh, Instagram and Facebook is at Open Range Gravel. So perfect. I appreciate you taking the time and, uh, let me kind of tell the story. Of course. [00:42:39]Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Eric for coming on and telling us all about his journey to creating the open range gravel event. I hope you go check it out. He's got some great videos on his website, which will be linked to. In the show notes. Big, thanks to our friends at hammerhead and the hammerhead crew. To remember that promo code for a free heart rate monitor strap is the gravel ride. If you'd like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. For those of you who are celebrating Thanksgiving this week. I wish you a great holiday. And here's the finding some dirt onto your wheels.    

 Kristi Berg from the Minnesota Zoo talked with Vineeta about the upcoming Zoom Stems design challenge!

"A Survey of Elemental Gratitude," an exhibition currently at the Kansas City Public Library, showcases the beauty of the Flint Hills— and asks us to consider its environmental future. Philip Heying's photography will be on display until December 9.

Join hosts Britanny French and Rob McDonald as they chat with Chayne Onek of C&S Whitetails in the Flint Hills of Kansas. We'll talk about whitetail outfitting in the sunflower state, managing properties for wildlife, and balancing private business with public wildlife.  Thanks for tuning in, and tell all your friends about the Great Plains Outdoors Podcast! 

Most of us become familiar with North America's plains while reading accounts of Lewis and Clark's voyage west or Laura Ingalls in Little House on the Prairie. For some, this is where their curiosity about the grasslands stopped. My journey, however, continued well beyond that initial exposure. Growing up in the plains, I was surrounded by true naturalists—folks in tune with the ebbs and flows that the seasons provide on this landscape. These naturalists, along with my own experience and education, taught me that the very nature of this vegetation dictates where upland bird species can be found within our Great Plains. North America's sea of grass once covered an area from Illinois to Wyoming and Canada to Texas, touching or encompassing around seventeen states. This “Great Plains” grassland ecosystem is most simply divided into three ecotones: tallgrass, mixed grass, and shortgrass. Within these ecotones there are many ecosites, such as the Sandhills of Nebraska or the Flint Hills of Kansas. These ecosites occur on gradients of longitude, precipitation, and soil.

In this episode, we have a fun conversation with John and Karen's middle daughter, Margaret. After returning from a business trip, she takes time to share her entertaining memories of life growing up on the farm. From learning the value of hard work, to the joy of forging connections with both animals and people, Margaret's experiences shaped her into the remarkable individual she is today.Support the showCheck us out at: https://www.pendletons.comFollow us on Facebook at Pendleton's Country Market for updates about our farmWe can also be found on Instagram at pendletonscountrymktEmail us with questions, comments and requests for future show topics at info@pendletons.com

In s3e34, Platemark host Ann Shafer speaks with Jason Scuilla, artist and professor at Kansas State University in Manhattan, KS. The university is hosting the Mid America Print Council conference in the fall of 2024, and Jason was eager to talk about the conference and its call for proposals of all sorts. The deadline is the end of September 2023; the link is https://fromtheashes.k-state.edu/. In addition to the MAPC conference, Ann was eager to speak with Jason about his research into electrolytic etching, a non-toxic method of creating superbly detailed, precise, and rich etchings. They also talk about teaching undergrad and grad students, sabbaticals, as well as Jason's own work.   Episode image: Melissa Scuilla   Konza Prairie, Flint Hills, Kansas. Mid America Print Council conference homepage. Hale Library Great Hall, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS. Crayola's Colors of the World markers. Michelangelo (Italian, 1475–1564). The Last Judgment, 1536–41. Fresco. 13.7 m × 12 m (45 × 39 ft.). Sistine Chapel, Vatican City. Rembrandt (Dutch, 1606–1669). The Windmill, 1641. Etching. Sheet: 5 7/8 x 8 5/16 in. (15 x 21.1 cm.). Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Francisco de Goya (Spanish, 1746–1828). Plate 43 from Los Caprichos: The sleep of reason produces monsters (El sueño de la razon produce monstruos), 1799. Etching and aquatint. Plate: 8 3/8 x 5 15/16 in. (21.2 x 15.1 cm.); sheet: 11 5/8 x 8 1/4 in. (29.5 x 21 cm.). Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Student interpretations of Goya Caprichos etchings for the first project in Intro to Printmaking Techniques class at Kansas State University. Student interpretations of Goya Caprichos etchings for the first project in Intro to Printmaking Techniques class at Kansas State University. Frank and Dorothy Getlein. The Bite of the Print: Satire and Irony in Woodcut, Engravings, Etchings, and Lithographs. New York: Bramhall House, 1963. Francisco de Goya (Spanish, 1746–1828). Plate 11 from The Disasters of War (Los Desastres de la Guerra): Neither do these (Ni por esas), c. 1810. Etching, drypoint, and burin. Plate: 6 5/16 × 8 3/8 in. (16.1 × 21.2 cm.); sheet: 8 3/8 × 12 3/4 in. (21.3 × 32.4 cm.). Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Veduta. Electrolytic etching. 12 x 9 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Echoes of Rome: Villa with Spirits. Multiplate electrolytic etching. Plate: 16 x 12 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Monk with Fantastic Digit. Electrolytic etching. 12 x 9 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Proxy War Monument (King Covid). Electrolytic etching. Plate: 32 x 24 in. [DETAIL] Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Proxy War Monument (King Covid). Electrolytic etching. Plate: 32 x 24 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Plate for Proxy War Monument (King Covid). Electrolytically etched copper plate. Plate: 32 x 24 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Arsenale. Multi-plate electrolytic etching and acid etching. Plate: 12 x 9 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Stone Head. Monotype, stencil, relief, and drawing. 22 x 15 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Proxy War Monument with Abductee. Color etching. Plate: 16 x 12 in. Jason Scuilla (American, born 1980). Proxy War Monument (Self Portrait). Multiplate color electrolytic etching. Plate: 16 x 12 in. Large bath for electrolytic etching, Kansas State University. Testing area for electrolytic etching, Kansas State University. Didactic explaining the NEA grant for electrolytic etching, Kansas State University. Jason Scuilla welcoming members of the Print Council of America to the printshop at Kansas State University in 2019. Copper plate going into the bath for electrolytic etching, Kansas State University.   USEFUL LINKS Jason's website: www.jasonscuilla.com Instagram: @jscuilla Mid America Print Council:  www.mapc2024.com MAPC conference website: https://fromtheashes.k-state.edu/ KState grad program: https://art.ksu.edu/ Link to Leonardo article: https://direct.mit.edu/leon/article-abstract/54/4/427/97277/An-Optimized-Nontoxic-Electrolytic-Etching Link to MET lecture: https://www.metmuseum.org/events/programs/met-speaks/free-lectures/conversation-etchings The Bite of the Print book:  https://www.amazon.com/Woodcuts-Engravings-Etchings-Lithographs-Serigraphs/dp/B0006AY31Q Course Trailer: Printmaking during Civil Unrest and Challenging Times: https://youtu.be/5MNQiYl_xPk   This episode exists as a YouTube video as well. Here's the link: https://youtu.be/tjsvRWdC8V0   

Virtual fencing is a new technology that combines a cattle collar and a computer program.  Flint Hills initiative manager with the Nature Conservancy in Kansas, Tony Capizzo is leading a study on the idea.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In April of 2023, we welcomed the new Military Relations Manager, Christian Bishop to the Chamber team. Christian has been at the forefront of engagement between Fort Riley and the Flint Hills community for nearly 15 years as part of the Fort Riley team. Listen to this week's podcast to learn more about Christian's past career working with Fort Riley, how she received the nickname "Ms. Manhattan", the key initiatives for her new position and ways to get involved with the Chamber's Military Relations Committee.

Well hello there today, so thankful you're listening to the podcast for this episode, number 149, and just want to let you know that I've got some details about the giveaway items to celebrate episode number 150, which is just about here. I'm giving away things like gift cards for coffee, Amazon, to an online Christian owned small business (who doesn't like supporting the small biz world?) and some other things. Several prizes, one prize per winner to spread out the fun and your chances of winning. And I'll be sharing a link to the post with the deets, the details, about how to enter. (Hint: it's really as simple as leaving a comment on the post either on IG or FB.) So, that's the news / housekeeping / update… and now, let's dig into one of God's promises, shall we?   Jan L. Burt (@janlburt) • Instagram photos and videos   Facebook   You're listening to The Burt (Not Ernie) Show podcast, part of the Spark Network, now playing in the Edifi app. This is episode number 149. After wrapping up the series on Hot Topics, which hopefully encouraged you to lean hard on God's promises even when it feels hardest to do so - now we are moving on to a promise that is full of comfort. And of course, full of hope, because most of us end up much more hopeful, more optimistic, after we've been on the receiving end of a whole lot of comfort.    I want to define the word “comfort” first, and then look at the promise from the Bible that offers us comfort.    Comfort: To soothe in time of affliction or distress. To ease physically; relieve. to give strength and hope to to ease the grief or trouble of consolation in time of trouble or worry  a state or feeling of being less worried, upset, frightened, etc., during a time of trouble or emotional pain   Isaiah 51:12 (Amplified) “I, even I, am He who comforts you. Who are you that you are afraid of man who dies And of a son of man who is made [as destructible] as grass,” This is the Lord God Almighty speaking in this verse, and it is a very comforting verse. But if we don't listen to what God says here, if we refuse to take heed, I don't know that we can receive the comfort He has for us.   God says this: “I, even I, am He who comforts you.”   When I am in a bad place, things have gone really poorly and I am feeling it. I'm down, I will say that when I am offered comforting words from say my husband, one of my children, a dear friend, it's great. It makes a difference. When I get a surprise letter in the good old fashioned snail mail, like the mailbox, that is really comforting. An email, a text, also super comforting. A comment on a post, a podcast review or book review, yeah, all those are very comforting. I think if you are an author, a speaker, podcaster, or something like that, maybe even if you are a pastor, it's not the worst idea to have a “Happiness File” where you put things that are encouraging, like positive reviews, notes, cards, etc. Not to be vain, I want all of that in Jan's life to hurry up and die already! But to be a comfort and to remind you to keep going, keep serving Jesus, because words like that can very well be sent your way only because the Lord has put it on the writer's heart to send them to you. Don't quit serving Jesus.    How much better is it, how much more amazing, when God speaks comfort to us?  And we can know that it is His will to comfort us because we have these words from the pen of the apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:4: God comforts and encourages us in all our troubles so that we will in turn be able to comfort others with the same comfort we have received. The Holy Spirit is referred to as The Comforter in John 14:26. So this is not a Jan-sized idea, comfort from the Lord. I am drawing directly from the Word of God and am not adding anything to it, so be encouraged that you have verses in the Old Testament and the New Testament to assure you that God wants you to comfort you. (And then, He wants you to comfort others…but not with your own means of comforting them, but with the same comfort He gave to you.)  God's promise to you here is that He comforts you. “I, even I, am He who comforts you.” This feels pretty personal, doesn't it? I think He wants you to take this promise personally. He comforts you. Present tense, today. Also a promise that when tomorrow becomes today He will comfort you. This is an ongoing promise. On a continual basis, your God will comfort you. I mean it when I say this feels personal and you should take it personally, because it is personal and it is personally meant for you. Right now. At this very moment. Take this personally.   Isaiah 51:12 goes on to remind us of the truth that whomever we fear in life, outside of the Lord God Most High, is not meant to be feared. You and I are to fear the Lord and not man. This verse asks why we fear a man, who dies, who is as destructible as grass. Well, that's a good question! Let's think on it for a moment and be honest in our thinking.  We tend to be fearful of people because we see what they can do to us. Cost us our jobs. Do us harm in some manner. Take something from us. But if we step back and look at the bigger picture, the truest truth, are we trusting God above all else, or do we have a fear that God won't take care of us in some way, shape or form and that is really what drives us in our fear of what man might do?   It's June, summer time here in Kansas as I record this episode. And the lawn has to be mown (and technically I could say mown or mowed in this sentence used in this tense, but I am gonna go with mown) all summer long. Again and again. So, say I take a trip to visit the Flint Hills and I see natural grassland that will not be cut short all summer long. Contrasting my lawn and the grasslands, what's the real difference come fall? At best, those grasslands will only grow for a season. And my lawn clippings? They are dead and done for as soon as the mower skims across them. So, that's the point of reference God gives us. Fearing man is not sensible as believers, because they have the lifespan of a blade of grass in the final estimation of all things.    You cannot manage to go through life in this world and never come up against hard things. Hard things develop good character. Romans 5 says it far better than I just did, so read that chapter if you'd like to look into hard times and good character. Hard things are not always bad things. However, scary things are not something God wants you to live under with a sense of overwhelming doom and utter hopelessness. That is not how you are to live when you follow Jesus.   Stuff happens. That's a guarantee in this life.  What will we do when that stuff happens? Give in to fear, to despair, or receive the comfort that God is promising in Isaiah?   I am going to do my very best to choose the latter. And when I am really feeling the weight of something, I am going to lean fully on the Holy Spirit and ask Him to intervene, help me to be able to choose belief over fear, and then I will trust Him to do as He has promised.   Can you do me a solid and find someone to reach out to this week with something that will be hopeful for them? How has God comforted you in the past? Can you extend that comfort to someone in the next few days?   I think you may be surprised what God might do when you pass on His comfort to others.   This episode is a bit shorter than usual, but that's probably okay since I've been long winded on the show recently! As always when I drop a shorter episode, I am going to challenge and encourage you with this: Keep your earbuds in as if the podcast were still playing (if you use earbuds…if you don't, which I don't, maybe improvise on this a bit). And use the remaining time that would normally be part of the podcast episode and spend it in prayer and also being quiet before the Lord, in a listening posture if you will.   This exercise is never going to add up to wasted or squandered time. It's so good to do this regularly, just you and the Lord, together in a quiet, focused setting where you are poised to listen and you share your heart with Him. I do hope you'll do that today.   Thanks so much for listening today. Check out that link for the giveaway and also, along with the 150th episode of The Burt (Not Ernie) Show, I'm dropping the first seven episodes of my new podcast, The Prayer Podcast with Jan L. Burt. The subject matter is pretty self explanatory and I hope you'll check it out when it launches.    Have a truly blessed day, my friend, and remember that God's promise to comfort you is a promise you can depend on, always, day after day.  I'll see you next time. Bye bye.   

Link to show notes.

The Symphony in the Flint Hills is an annual gathering on the prairie,  which celebrates music, art and the ecology of this beautiful stretch of land in Kansas. For over a decade, Karen and John  have been the provider of flowers for the Patron's tent at this signature event.Support the showCheck us out at: https://www.pendletons.comFollow us on Facebook at Pendleton's Country Market for updates about our farmWe can also be found on Instagram at pendletonscountrymktEmail us with questions, comments and requests for future show topics at info@pendletons.com

Link to show notes.

Kelly Tastove is the Operations and Donor Relations Manager with Symphony in the Flint Hills, a non-profit organization that  heightens appreciation and knowledge of the Flint Hills tallgrass prairie.Each June, the Symphony brings more than 5000 people into a pasture in Kansas and provides one of the most picturesque settings for a symphony that you'll ever witness. www.symphonyintheflinthills.org

This episode is chock full of trivia night factoids: the defunct mussel button industry, 30 miles of hand-laid limestone fencing, 1800's style refrigeration, prescribed fires, bison wallows, and the secret Flint Hills pronghorn herd. Join Laura and Nadia as they chat Flint Hills ecology and history with Brian Obermeyer,  Director of Protection and Stewardship at The Nature Conservancy in Kansas.  HostsNadia Marji, Laura MendenhallSourcesTallgrass Prairie National PreserveThe Nature Conservancy in KansasMy Flint Hills by Jim Hoy Follow the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks on Facebook and Instagram. Follow the Kansas Wildlife Federation on Facebook and Instagram.

Rex Buchman is a christian horseman, Clinician & Rancher - "Staying Safe in the Saddle on the Trail."A third generation rancher from the Flint Hills of Kansas. A Christian, father to five, who with wife Teresa, works raising ranching heritage horses, registered red angus cattle and hosting dude ranch adventures. He created the “Trail of Billy's Last Ride”, a historic 170 mile trail ride tin New Mexico that lasted for 10+ years. Rex served on the board of the Ultimate Horsemen's Challenge Association and competed in that association for five years. He has shown in the Midwest Ranch Horse Association. Rex has attended, hosted, and even taught a few colt starting and horsemanship clinics. Rex has made a living starting colts for five or six years after returning to Kansas from 11.5 years as a county agent in New Mexico. He has coached 4H horse judging teams and colt futurities while in New Mexico. Rex's purpose at EquiFest is to offer people some help with their horses, to increase their level of enjoyment and safety as they live out their horsemanship journey.

Link to episode notes 

Join Hugh Ross and Fazale “Fuz” Rana as they discuss new discoveries taking place at the frontiers of science that have theological and philosophical implications, including the reality of God's existence. *Disclaimer: Audio quality and sound may be low for Hugh Ross' microphone* Bison & Grass Diversity A three-decade long field study in the Flint Hills ecoregion in Eastern Kansas shows that reintroducing bison to tallgrass prairie increased grassland species diversity by more than 100% compared to ungrazed areas and by more than 50% compared to areas grazed by domesticated cattle. In tallgrass prairie grazed by bison, researchers observed a continual increase in native plant species richness. Unlike domesticated cattle, bison engage in frequent wallowing, which increases habitat heterogeneity. Researchers noted that long-term, year-round grazing by bison resulted in plant communities that were resilient to the two-year severe drought that occurred from 2011–2012. The researchers concluded that “rewilding native megafauna could help to restore grassland biodiversity” worldwide. Resources: Reintroducing Bison Results in Long-Running and Resilient Increases in Grassland Diversity     Animal Smarts & God's Image Animals are intelligent and display remarkable skills that reflect the ability to plan and problem solve. Some life scientists interpret this behavior as evidence that animal intelligence is closer to human intelligence than we might have initially thought. This claim seems to challenge the view that human beings are exceptional. According to Scripture, human beings stand apart from all other creatures because we bear God's image. But if, in essence, human beings are no different from animals, it's challenging to maintain that we are the crown of creation, as Scripture teaches. Yet, recent work by biologist Johan Lind from Stockholm University indicates that animals engage in behavior that resembles flexible planning through a different process: associative learning.In this episode, biochemist Fuz Rana explores the scientific and theological implications of Lind's insight. Resources: What Can Associative Learning Do for Planning? A-Learning: A New Formulation of Associative Learning Theory Can Associative Learning Be the General Process for Intelligent Behavior in Non-Human Animals? Additional Resources: Does Animal Planning Undermine the Image of God?

This week we catch up with Amanda Nauman to discuss all things gravel. We touch on the Mammoth Tuff gravel race, Tuff Camps and how to continue to invite women into the sport.  Amanda is an OG in the sport and friend of the pod which made for a super enjoyable conversation.  Tuff Ventures Website Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm super stoked to invite back. Amanda Naaman. Amanda is a big time friend of the pod. A podcast or herself as the co-host of the grody. Podcast. A very accomplished off-road athlete. With notable wins twice. At Unbound 200. Five times at the rock cobbler, . We touch on rock cobbler this year, and some of the help she provided Sam aims with inviting and encouraging more female athletes to toe the line at this year's rock cobbler event. She and Dave Sheik are also the co-founders of the mammoth tough event in mammoth, California, which occurs in September. Each year She's a member of the gravel cycling hall of fame advisory board. And according to her. She's Walter, the dog's favorite. I'm not going to get into that domestic squabble, but we'll leave it at that. I'm excited to bring you a followup conversation with our friend, Amanda Naaman. Hi, Craig. How are you? I am doing great. It's so good [00:01:32] Amanda Nauman: to see you. Yeah, likewise. I'm excited. What, almost two and a half years [00:01:36] Craig Dalton: later. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the funny thing about our first recording I was recalling, we were doing an Instagram live at the same time. It was back when everybody was trying to figure out Instagram Live, so we were doing that. And recording our conversation and I ultimately posted it to the podcast Feed . [00:01:54] Amanda Nauman: Nice, nice. . [00:01:56] Craig Dalton: What am I sort of, I would say to the failed endeavor into Instagram Live. It's not something I, I jam on. I'm much more comfortable in the podcast format where I can just talk to people and publish it later. [00:02:08] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's hard and distracting. You get all the messages, you're like, what? What is that question? ? . [00:02:14] Craig Dalton: I feel like we have so much ground to cover. We were chatting a little bit offline, but I, I thought what would be an interesting place to start knowing you participated in the Lifetime Grand Prix in in 2020 2, 20 22. I just wanted to get your kind of overall perceptions as someone who's been around gravel racing for many years with that structure of your season. infused onto your life. H uh, how did it go and what were your thoughts on the, the lifetime Grand Prix in general? [00:02:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I signed up probably on the last day that was possible to turn in the applications that, um, winter before, cuz I really contemplated whether or not it was something that I wanted to do for a while cuz I knew. You know, I had done Unbound Excel. They had put Leadville on the list for the Grand Prix, and I was like, man, I've always wanted to do Leadville. I can kind of shape my calendar around the rest of the series as well. So ultimately I decided to sign up for it knowing, you know, it's kind of a shoe-in to Leadville, which is one thing I had always wanted to do. And at the same time, I get to do some gravel and some other mountain bike races that I hadn't necessarily done before. So I was very optimistic and excited about the Grand Prix last. . It didn't necessarily go how I had planned or anticipated, but uh, yeah, I think what they have created in the series and the opportunities for athletes to go race that, I think it's a great, a great thing and great structure for a lot of people, but it wasn't necessarily, let's say, the right fit for me last year. [00:03:44] Craig Dalton: Did that make sense? I mean, just for the listener's sake, like if you go back a few years before that as a gravel racer, how would you go about picking your Cal. [00:03:53] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I mean, there's just some of the marquee events that. I would've picked, you know, in 2019, like for sure rock cobbler, mid-South Belgian waffle ride San Diego. And then you'd go into Unbound, like for I think a California racer. That was sort of the way you would go. And then as summer happened, you know, you could pick and choose events. S B T I think was a was happening at that time. So it was a good summer. One gravel worlds. And then R P I. Was kind of sort of a season ender a little bit before you hit fall, and some people would race cycle lacrosse and whatnot. So that was kind of the loose structure, I think, at least in 2019. And then 20 20, 20 21, everything kind of changed and there was a big reevaluation of what was important in terms of picking events, going to events or not , and then, Yeah, in 2022, everybody had the opportunity to apply for the Grand Prix, so that changed things. But beforehand it was sort of what events were some of the big names going to, which ones had the most prestige, and, and if you were looking for sponsorship and stuff, you wanted to make sure you were at an event where there's enough competition there to show that let's say your results are are worth not. [00:05:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's so interesting to think, like, think of it from the professional athlete's perspective, going back prior to the existence of the Grand Prix, just the flexibility to kind of go do whatever you wanted and whatever was exciting to you. And then to see athletes be, uh, forced because as you said, this amazing opportunity and I think the Grand Prix. Fits so many people's needs right now. It does exclude certain events and it certainly does drive your calendar and just looking at it from the outside and maybe talking to a few athletes along the way, there's definitely an increased stress when you've, you've got this season long endeavor that you're pursuing and you're trying to get points at every stop. [00:05:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was where it caused me some stress last year because I got sick a couple times and the kind of sick where had it been a normal year, I just would've like pulled the plug and not gone to Sea Otter, for example, cuz that was the first one that I was sick for. and in hindsight, like I probably should have done that, but when you're in the moment you're like, no, I can't skip this cuz I only have one scratch race. I had to skip Schwa again because of Mammoth. So I was already in a tough situation of like, I have to do all of these other ones no matter what. And that was the stress for me, I think was feeling like I had to do this thing. And especially because last year we paid for it. So I was also like financially invested in the decision that I had made. Um, so yeah, for me, like I said, that that feeling. Wasn't perfect for me because. Bike racing isn't my only source of income. So it, I've always tried to go towards what I'm doing has to be fun because if not, then like, what's the point? It's not like the money puts food on the table for me. So I have that ability to say, Hey, I need to pick and choose things that are important to me. And I think I've come back a little bit more to that, uh, in 2023, which I would say I was at in 2019 for sure. Um, and then a period. A few years floundering of what, what was important for me, . [00:07:13] Craig Dalton: I know you guys at the Groo podcast did a really great episode with, I think it was Michelle Duffy talking, just talking about your, how you felt the season went at the Lifetime Grand Prix, and some suggestions and some questions. What were some of the key takeaways if you look back on that season to say, What would you recommend they changed in that program and did they ultimately end up doing that for [00:07:36] Amanda Nauman: 23? Yeah, I definitely, I asked some hard questions. I think he, I told chemo I was going to ask some hard questions and he was like, yeah, okay, But I, you know, I pulled some of them from like actual trolls on the internet that would say like these most. Outlandish things and you're like, really? Like, did you even pay attention at all? But I wanted to give them the opportunity to respond to some of that stuff. Like, like did, did social media matter? Or you know, how could you charge everyone money and all the ENT entry fees to go do this stuff? And kind of. Pinpoint some of the things that people had complained about, I would say. Um, and yeah, they changed a lot. I mean, at that time they had already made 2023, like no fees so people don't have to pay for the entry fees. Um, and I think they're doing a much better job with social media. And that was. , one of my major points that I wanted to drive with them was like the stuff that I was seeing, they had relied so heavily on the flow bikes deal that they had made. Yeah. And doing that live coverage and really just making sure that flow was going to do the storytelling for them and it just never happened. And that was my, my main frustration. in March, like before we went to Mid-South, Flo did one-on-one interviews with probably everyone, and they had all this great content that they put out before Sea Otter, and it was very in depth and it felt like everybody was telling their story and it was fun to follow that part of it. And then after Unbound, it just stopped. And then they had the issues in Utah and. . So ultimately for somebody like me, where being in the top 10 wasn't necessarily realistic and being in that midfield to back of the pack zone, I kept saying like, what is the point for somebody like me and somebody let, and now let's say somebody in the 20 to 30 range, what's the point of being in it if you're not giving me the exposure? that I want if I'm gonna be in the series and like, invest in this with you. And so I hope that that's the biggest thing that they change for this year is not relying on the flow stuff, probably expanding the storytelling to more than the top five at each event. Yeah. And, and being able to tell more of the story of everyone [00:09:52] Craig Dalton: I. Yeah, that would be interesting. I, I sort of, when I look through the list of writers, both male and female, and I think about like who, oh, who might I interview over the cross cost of the cross of the season, as you know, this isn't specifically a racing podcast. Yeah. But even if it was like, I can't get to all those athletes and it's almost like I just need to get a dart board, just throw a dart and pick someone that I don't know and interview because I think you're right. There's interesting. Across the board and the more that they can kind of create those personal connections with the athletes, the more excited people are gonna be to follow. [00:10:27] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, for sure. And I think, like chemo said, his major goal was to get non-endemic sponsorship into the sport and to get these athletes able to make a living off of it. Like those were his two main goals in making this series. And I was like, okay, if you do that, like you need to work more on the marketing side of it and you need to tell. All of the stories because if we're just gonna talk about the top five and we're only gonna pay the top 10, then what's the point of going 30 deep So . Yeah, like that's, I think, I think they get that now and they'll probably work more on that this year. But for sure, like I'm, I'm gonna have Anna Ya mochi on Groo next. And she just won rock cobbler and she's doing the Grand Prix and she's one of those like up and coming names where it's a really exciting story to follow and if they go the same route they did as last year, which is like, well, let's just focus on the top five hopefuls at each event, like she's never gonna get any coverage then So yeah, if they can expand the way that they tell those stories, I think that would be, [00:11:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Similarly, I just launched an episode with, uh, Ian Lopez, San Ramon, nice. 19 year old out of Northern California who's joined. He's the youngest person who's part of the series. Yeah, and it's just, I think it's just gonna be an interesting timestamp for. He and I to like look at this interview where he is at, what he's thinking about with his career in cycling and yeah, follow him throughout the [00:11:52] Amanda Nauman: year. Yeah, I love that [00:11:53] Craig Dalton: stuff. I love it. Yeah. So did you decide to, to throw your hat in the ring for 2023 in the Grand [00:12:00] Amanda Nauman: Prix? I did not, and mostly because I think of the experiences that I had in 2022 and not enjoying that stuck feeling. Um, if they had. another deal or contract, or if they had presented a way that they were going to do marketing for all of the athletes, I might have reconsidered it, but because we were just going blindly on the hope of like, yeah, we're gonna make it better than the year before, I was like, well, I'd rather focus on more of the stuff I think that I wanna do personally. Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm optimistic about the things that they do change for this year. I just think it would've been cool for them to maybe present that upfront. [00:12:42] Craig Dalton: When you saw the call of a Lifetime series on YouTube, did that make you. They might be approaching it differently or what were your thoughts on that series? [00:12:50] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, I loved it. I think they, you know, they had told us initially that it was going to happen and before every race weekend they had said, Hey, if you're in the top three men or women, cuz they alternated. Genders throughout the the series. They told us all of that upfront and they said, if you are going to be in this top group, please make sure you make time for the interviews and all of that. So that part of it we knew was for sure happening. And they made some of the vignette videos highlighting some of the athletes, but it just wasn't, it wasn't everyone, and it wasn't clear how they were picking the stories to tell essentially. Um, So, yeah, I think they did a really good job with the series though. I, I joked that it's, like they said, make it like drive to survive with a little less drama, but, and a lot more cool bike racing. I think they nailed it pretty good. [00:13:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I enjoyed it as well. Yeah. With with the idea that you can drop two races and now it's up to seven races, do you think that would meaningfully change, like what your experience would've been? If that was the scenario last [00:13:54] Amanda Nauman: year, yeah. It would've eliminated some of that stress of feeling stuck or knowing that. you had a little bit more flexibility. Uh, yeah, I think that, that that format will be healthier for people and I think that is for sure something that they realized last year with some of the injuries that happened already, like Pete racing through when maybe he shouldn't have with his hand still hurting and pacing. So, um, yeah, just lessons learned, growing pains of how you set up a series from the get-go. [00:14:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that'll be interesting. I also think it'll be interesting if someone is riding through the series healthy. And just decides not to do something, you know, unbound obviously being a huge effort that maybe some people might not be suited for. At least that was the speculation last year. Yeah. Um, wondering like whether they'll just opt out of one and save one in their pocket for either a bad day or an illness or injury. [00:14:48] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, everybody was afraid of that and I felt like there were a lot of rumblings of like, oh, so-and-so's gonna skip unbound cuz they can. But I think peer pressure might have just went on that and most of them ended up just doing it. So maybe that'll keep happening. I think everybody kind of feels that is the marquee one and if you skip it, cuz it doesn't suit you and you one people will probably be like, well they didn't do unbound. So Yeah, [00:15:12] Craig Dalton: I could see. Yeah. Little, a little asterisks, by the way. [00:15:14] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Uh, well they chickened out on that one. . . [00:15:19] Craig Dalton: Love it. So what, what are some of your plans for 2023? Obviously, like over the last couple years, you've. Uh, become an event organizer with Mammoth Tuff, which we'll get into. Also started dabbling in gravel camps, which sound amazing. But why don't you just, let's talk through what 2023 is gonna look like for you for both erasing and other gravel endeavor perspective. [00:15:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, yeah, quite, quite a few people have asked me this, and I think it's important to. also reminds people again that like, this isn't my job, per se. You know, like I have a regular desk job. And so the way that I've approached anything has always been fun first in doing things that I want to do. Um, and last year my dad got sick a couple times and the business that I work for is my parents own it. And so, and it's just me and my brother that work for them. So I think we kind of had this like revelation of. All of this other stuff that we're doing isn't quite as important and putting my dad's health first and focusing on that kind of was, and it's one of those things where it puts stuff into perspective. And I'm like, yeah, I've been doing this bike racing stuff for a decade. It is, it has been a very selfish endeavor. And there are kind of other things. in my life that I would like to focus on. Um, so yeah, that, that's, that's the background to all of it, essentially. You know, it's not as easy of a decision as like, oh, well I'd rather race mid-south than Unbound. Like, it was, it was never really that simple for me. For 2023, it was kind of more like, mammoth is very important to me. Doing camps is very important to me. Having more time at work is also important to me. And, um, Going back to the goal that I had in 2020 of finishing the calera 500 was also a goal and something I wanted to do last year, but like I said, the like shiny object of the Grand Prix got in the way and I was like, oh, I could do this thing. So I just put that on hold for another year. Um, so I'd like to, to go back to that and try and finish it. Awesome. [00:17:20] Craig Dalton: Can you describe that, that attempt at Calera and what that [00:17:24] Amanda Nauman: is? Yeah. So it is the Calera 500. Um, the person who started it, his name is Alan Jacoby and he lives in Idaho now. So he doesn't live in Mammoth anymore, but he was a big tour divide fanatic. Um, and he came back to Mammoth after doing tour divide and was like, I need to do something similar here in my backyard. So he came up with Calera, which is a hundred fifty, two hundred fifty North and South Loops. And then the Calera 500, which is the big Mamma Jamma one. And most all of this is like, An Excel spreadsheet of maps and queues and like very rudimentary stuff. I think over the course of the next year or so, it will be a little bit more updated Ever since, um, one of the bike packing.com people did a feature story on it cuz he finished the 500 last fall. So with more attention, more eyeballs, I think it's going to gain popularity. But essentially they're just like really stupid hard bike packing routes in the area. And I think the fastest time on the 500 is just under five days. . So it's not really something that can be done in a couple, and it's more walking than you think, and it's, uh, a lot harder just because of the elevation and the massive climbs in the Eastern Sierra. So, . Yeah, that's, that's the backstory. There's a cool video that Niner put out in 2020 when I had first started it and kind of the goal of finishing it has is still, is still there looming over my head. I've had a couple of times that didn't go right, [00:19:01] Craig Dalton: and is it the type of thing now that in the bike packing community, it's this, Entity and people are starting to sort of check it off their list and make attempts to go at it fast. [00:19:12] Amanda Nauman: Barely. That's why I said like I think it'll gain popularity now that bike packing.com did a feature on it because I think they're only five or six guys that have ever finished the 500. I'm the only person to ever finish the one 50 South Loop. Um, yeah. So it's very, very grassroots. I mean, there are probably. 200 people in the Facebook group that know about it. Um, but yeah, if you are interested, there is a Facebook group. It is private, so you can just request access for it for anybody listening. But yeah, I would love to see it blow up. Like I think it's a, it's a really beautiful route. It's very challenging and hard, but if you're looking for a good reason to, to get away, it's a, it's a good one. [00:19:53] Craig Dalton: How did you fall in love with that area in the Eastern Sierra? [00:19:57] Amanda Nauman: M uh, growing up, I think, um, yeah, we probably talked about this a few years ago, but my parents always took us to Mammoth growing up and same thing with David's parents. And so we both sort of fell in love with it in a parallel way as we were younger. And then once we met, um, we were like, oh man, this place is awesome. And my parents saved up enough money to get a house there, I think in 20. 15 or 16 I think. And because of that opportunity to be there and stay there, I ended up doing a lot of my training for, at the time, DK Now Unbound. And so I attribute a lot of the success I had winning in 15 and 16 to training up there because it was just the most like wide open. Not California, like in the way that you would think about California gravel. It was just more Midwest than anything I'd ever found in the state. And because of that, it gave me the opportunity to put my head down and go hard the way that you would in the in the back roads of Kansas . So that was sort of how we fell in love with it. Definitely skiing and snowboarding first, then mountain biking over the years, and then, hey, like let's go down this road that looks like it goes off to nowhere. . Yeah. [00:21:14] Craig Dalton: Love it. And then which year was the, was 2020 was the first year that you guys attempted to put on Mammoth Tough, right? Right. [00:21:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. We came up with the idea in like, well, I'd say late 2018 or so. Um, I don't know if I've ever told this story publicly, but we actually went. Maybe half a year of doing it with Lifetime and thinking it was gonna be a lifetime event. And ultimately Dave and I decided we wanted to do it on our own. And so in 20, late 2019, we were like, okay, we're gonna do it ourselves cuz this is how we wanna do it and present it. And, and then with the intention of it kicking off in 2020 [00:21:54] Craig Dalton: and what year did it actually kick off? [00:21:56] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, last year , so, [00:21:59] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah. I couldn't remember if it happened once or twice already. Yeah. No. So you got got one [00:22:03] Amanda Nauman: under your belt. Yeah. Covid. And then 2021 was wildfires, unfortunately. And then, yeah, 2022 finally happened last year. Which, one thing I do wanna mention, I just set up bike ride for. this in 2023. For me, I'm the tough, and they have a new insurance policy option for their event promoters where there's like a natural disaster thing. You can pay a fee into this insurance thing where they will cover refunds for natural disasters like wildfires, which is huge, especially so any promoter's listening in California, think about it. It's only like 2.2% of your fees or whatever, and I think. The state that we're in and with, you know, some of the things that could happen in our areas like that is a, a pretty good opportunity for promoters. . [00:22:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that sounds like it. Yeah. So the events in September, so end of the year each, each season. [00:22:59] Amanda Nauman: Yes. Yeah, it is the weekend after Labor Day. So traditionally the Mammoth Grand Fondo has Labor Day weekend, and then we are that next Saturday after that, which is the closing weekend of the Mountain bike park. So we had a lot of people that were up there. You know, you have siblings or other family members that wanna just go ride park all day and. Go do your little grapple adventure. [00:23:22] Craig Dalton: Nice. A little I'd I'd do a little bit of both if given the opportunity. . [00:23:26] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. A lot of people went and rode mountain bikes on Sunday. . [00:23:29] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Um, and tell us a little bit about the event. Like if someone's considering it for their calendar, what, what is it like? Obviously Mammoth Mountain is at a high elevation as you referenced before, but how did you design the, the, the event? What are the, the roads and trails like up. [00:23:45] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, it's one thing. So when we first started it, we had a short course and a long course. We were gonna do a 40 mile and a hundred mile option ish. And then in 2020, One, we had a bunch of people come out and we tested sort of a medium route. Even though the event was canceled, we were like, Hey, go ride part of this and tell us what you think. And that was the genesis of the medium distance. So in 2022 last year, we had three routes, even though that was never the initial plan, but some people felt like, oh, the short one's too easy and the long one's too hard. So we need an in between. And that was where we came up with the idea of doing three different ones and they. Very different. Like they're in completely different sections of the, of the valley of the mountain. They go in different areas. So I wanted to be able to sell a different experience for each distance and sort of have it as a stepping stone leading up to challenging yourself over a hundred if you want to, and letting those first two on the way kind. get you ready for what to expect for the, for the long one, cuz the long one you go pretty much all the way to Bishop and back essentially is the route. [00:24:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And how much climbing is in the long one? [00:25:00] Amanda Nauman: 7,500 or so? It's not too bad, it's not like raw cobbler where it's a hundred feet per every mile. It's a little bit less than that. So I think it's, um, it's not as like punchy and brutal in that regard. . [00:25:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Are you doing sort of long duration climbs on the course or is it [00:25:19] Amanda Nauman: rolling? Yeah, it's mostly you just like kind of get in the zone and climb for. Good chunks of time. It's a lot less, like five minutes as hard as you can go. You're kind of like, yeah. All right. Kick it into gear for the next hour, essentially. . . [00:25:37] Craig Dalton: Nice. And then the, the, um, the, the short and the medium courses, what are those [00:25:42] Amanda Nauman: distances? Yeah, the short is about 40 miles, very palatable. You go by, uh, the the Hot Creek area, which is cool, so you can stop and go down there. And then the medium distance is about 75 miles or so, and it has some pretty technical descending in it, I would say. And for folks who aren't used to riding or navigating sand as much, that feeling. Riding in Palmist stone is very different from anything else in the state, essentially, cuz you're just riding in old lava fields. So, . It's very unique. So I had a lot of people tell me last year like, oh man, you weren't kidding when you said it was gonna be hard. I'm like, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't like some like silly marketing ploy to be like, this is gonna be the hardest event ever. I was like, I was serious. Like it's not easy. Um, and so it was, it was funny to have a bunch of people come up to me afterwards and being like, yeah, you were right. Like I know I wouldn't lie to you [00:26:40] Craig Dalton: What does that end up translating wise for equipment? Like what do you sort of recommend people ride up? [00:26:46] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, 40 minimum tire width. And I tell people like, go with as wide as your frame would allow, essentially. So like I could fit a 48 Oracle ridge on my R L t if I, if I needed to. And I think that would be the most fun realistically for the day if you were just looking to have a good time. And a lot of it is because some of the softer stuff, if you're not used to the like fish taily feeling of your bike, With when it has two narrow tires and sand, then go wider because you, it'll be more stable and a lot less like wiggly, I guess. So it kind of depends on. Number one, people's handling abilities and number two, what your frame can allow. And then, yeah, just go big. It's safer. , [00:27:32] Craig Dalton: did people listen to you or were people showing up on 30 twos? Yeah, [00:27:35] Amanda Nauman: no, people listened. I think that was, that was the thing we tried to scare everyone with. I was like, if you go under 40, you're not gonna have a good time. Just trust me. . [00:27:45] Craig Dalton: I love it. I love it. So overall, how was the first year of the event? Did it meet your expectations? [00:27:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. I think the one thing, I don't like gloating, but I will toot my horn on the safety aspect because the one thing about that area is there's, you have very little cell service. You're kind of really, truly in the middle of nowhere and the only people who ever go out there are just going in their side by sides or motorcycles to, to get away. So we made it an an emphasis on safety and having a hundred percent rider accountability, which you'd be surprised looking into events that you're trying to sign up for that. That's not really the case for most events that you go to. Promoters kind of put it on you to, oh, well, if you're out there, you're kind of on your own and if you don't get back like, and you tried calling, sag, whatever, like you'll figure out how to get back essentially. And there's not really making sure that everybody is back. Okay. Whereas in our case, if you get out there and you get lost or. Can't find your way back. Like there's a, like you go into the risk of like making it out alive essentially, cuz temperatures can drop overnight and there's kind of more risk factors involved. So we wanted to make sure that we knew where everyone was. And TBG timing had a really good setup where you could text them if you dnf, if you got back to your hotel room on your own. And then if you got picked up by people, obviously we knew where you were. We got that idea from, there's a, there's an ultra, a Bishop Ultra that happens in May every year, and they have a policy where if you don't report your DNF or like that you left the course and just went home, you're never allowed back. like they have a very like hard. Stance on that, and they just don't want people back that disregard that rule. So we were like, well, we don't wanna be that strict, but we want to make sure people know that we care about where they are out there. Um, so yeah, safety, I think was, was the biggest thing that we wanted to, to shoot for. And hopefully everybody's told me like, you're never gonna be able to scale that if you have 2000 people. And I don't know, I'd like to take on that challenge just because I think making sure everyone's safe is, is always gonna be our biggest priority. Yeah, for sure. [00:30:03] Craig Dalton: That sounds great. I remember in the first year you guys were advertising that it was kind of co-located alongside Octoberfest in Mammoth. Did that turn out to be the case? [00:30:13] Amanda Nauman: It didn't. They, uh, they ended up canceling their festival. They like, I. Covid stuff and the people who ran octoberfest have other businesses in town that they were kind of more worried about than, than putting on the festival last year. So they canceled. And so that is why we did our own beer run on Friday. So we ended up doing what used to be theirs. They handed it off to us and they're like, yeah, if you wanna do this, Stupid beer run. Go for it. Which we did cuz I had done it the year before and I was like, this is awesome. Um, so we took that over and, and we obviously last year didn't have time to like throw together a full on music festival like they had had in the past, but cuz they canceled sort of last minute. So this year the village is kind of helping us. Get talent involved for kind of having it be a little bit more of a festival and live music and entertainment for Saturday. Um, so yeah, no more October Fest, but, but we're trying to make the party . [00:31:10] Craig Dalton: Love it. Um, now I know you guys have been through the ringer as far as event organizers are concerned between the pandemic and the fires. But let's put those two years of waiting aside. Like how would you, what. , how do you think about the amount of effort required to put on Mammoth? Tough. And was it a satisfying enterprise for you guys to put together, or was being an event organizer just like this crazy amount of work you never anticipated? [00:31:40] Amanda Nauman: It was a crazy amount of work. I never anticipated a hundred percent. Um, I think that Sunday after the award ceremony when we were all cleaning up, I was like, somebody asked David, like, oh, are you guys gonna do this next year? David was like, uh, I don't know. And I was like, yes, . So we had very different, I think, immediate reactions to it. David ended up doing a lot more of like the manual labor, I would say, and I did a lot more of like the computer work and logistics and all of that. So we came at it from different perspectives, but in, even though it was more work than we had anticipated, I would say it was a lot more rewarding than we had anticipated as well. because I have always told the story that Mammoth was like the special place to us. Like so much so that we thought about just keeping it a secret and not really like displaying it as this gravel destination, I guess you could say. But doing that and having the opportunity to share this place that has meant so much to us, I think was. Ultimately the biggest gift and the thing that we were the most proud of because everybody was like, yeah, I come up and ski here in snowboard and mountain bike. I never thought to bring my gravel bike and just go explore. And people have spent so much time on the 3 95 and just never really thought about those roads that are out there. So that part to me was very rewarding. I think Visit Mammoth now knows that it is a really great destination to, for people to go bring a gravel bike and explore. and that part I think will be the thing will, will always be the most proud of is kind of sharing that adventurous spirit up there. [00:33:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Did you think about the event from like, um, you want this to be a hyper-competitive event or was it something else in your mind when you conceived of it? [00:33:27] Amanda Nauman: Um, that's it. That's kind of hard for me because I am so competitive. So we wanted this fine balance of making everybody feel like they were competing for something, um, because I don't want to exclude all of those people. Like I always appreciated that Sam aims with the rock cobbler. He was always like, this isn't a race, but two people are going to win. Like he's always said that. and he's always acknowledged me or whoever else was winning those years, but he didn't like do categories for all, you know, the age groups and whatnot. But re I really wanted to do that for our event because, As a swimmer, as a triathlete, having those goals for everyday regular people was something that was important to me, cuz it was important to me a decade ago before I got into anything super competitive. So I think it's important to reward. . Um, yeah. The people that are doing the thing and going how they can as fast as they can for their certain categories, I think is still important to me. Um, but in that sense, I also just wanna make sure people can come and have a good time and not feel like the pressure to, to perform. [00:34:37] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you've covered both bases, right? You've, you've, you, you've allowed the racer types to go at it, go hard and get some recognition at the end, but you've also built that safety net to make sure that there's no man or woman left [00:34:50] Amanda Nauman: behind. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. , . [00:34:54] Craig Dalton: The other thing I wanted to touch on that seems like it's been growing in your portfolio of gravel offerings has been the camp. what can you just tell me about like what a tough camp is like and what are tough? What's the vision for 2023? Yeah. [00:35:10] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. I. I will go as, I'm gonna go a decade back real quick. So when I was, uh, I finished my master's degree in 2012 and I had planned a trip to Europe with my best friend from high school, and we signed up for one of those like v i p experiences with the Tour de France. And so we did like this like. 10 days in the NY sort of thing and blew all of the money that I had made in college to go do this trip. Cuz I was like, whatever, I'm starting work after this. Like I can make money later. And it was like a very, I don't know, transformative, life-changing trip that we did. And I think, you know, the, the people I had spent a week with, I still talked to you today and uh, I think that experience was important for me cuz it made me realize how much. Travel and sharing cool experiences on two wheels was to me. And then, you know, shortly after that, I met David, I was working at, felt all of these things kind of stumbled into bike racing and bike racing became the catalyst to going cool places and riding bikes with friends. and then now I am like moving that pendulum sort of back into to what was really important to me 10 years ago, which was like just going and doing these trips and riding with people for fun and like sharing kind of all of the experiences that I've had in the past decade. So that was the impetus of it. And like I knew we were gonna have this conversation and I was thinking a lot. Why I wanted to do camps and why they were so important to me and Dave working as a coach for Carmichael Training Systems, like they have always done a really amazing job with camps, and I've had the pleasure of helping coach some of those and being a part of them. And every time I'm like, this is where it's at, like the like intimate, like group setting. You know, you have good food, you hang out, you just talk about important life stuff. That I think is always something I enjoyed. So that was the impetus of of all of it. We started some of the camps in 2020, a couple more in 2021, a couple more last year, and to where we are at today, making all of them sort of under the Tough Ventures umbrella and expanding it to a couple camps in Kansas. [00:37:31] Craig Dalton: Super cool. I do, I do think for many cyclists, the idea of a camp evokes this. Training camp mentality, which is like, oh, I'm going because I'm trying to do well at Unbound, or what have you. Yeah, and I think it's an inter really interesting opportunity to kind of shift that mindset to more what you're saying, which is like, I'm gonna go somewhere cool. I'm gonna ride my ass off for four days. I'm not doing that for necessarily for anything beyond the sheer pleasure of writing. For four days and getting access to people who are knowledgeable about the sport and learning a thing or two. [00:38:07] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, exactly. I think it's a middle ground of a training camp and like a vacation trip, , because I want, I want to bring value and the way I've been explaining it to everyone is like, Dave and I made a lot of mistakes in the past 10 years. We did everything the wrong way and I would like to make sure that people coming into this discipline now, Kind of learn from our mistakes, start doing everything the right way, because you will have a much more pleasant experience doing these long adventures if you have, you know, some, some semblance of like how you should take care of yourself essentially. [00:38:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, definitely. There's just a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of if someone just tells you something simple like make sure you eat every hour in these long events. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna be a lot better off than [00:38:52] Amanda Nauman: or some people that are like, oh man, I only had a bottle in four hours. I'm like, well, that's why you feel like crap. [00:38:58] Craig Dalton: Yeah, . Exactly. I like you had the benefit of doing triathlons. You sort of learned those lessons very quickly. Yeah. If you didn't fuel in one activity for the next one, you were pretty much [00:39:09] Amanda Nauman: hosed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I, again, one of the other things that happened was we had so many people that came to Mammoth and did the short route last year, and it was like their first gravel event. And that was very intimidating for me cuz I was like, this is going to be like their introduction to this experience and this discipline. and I wanted it to be good, and I wanted them to have resources at their disposal to make it comfortable. So much so. I feel like I over-delivered and overshared on some of that information. And I had a couple people emailing me and say like, you know, you don't really have to like handhold so much for all these people. I was like, yeah, I do, because some of them literally have no idea. So like if it's annoying to you that I'm telling you to drink a bottle an hour, like just ignore me. Then , this isn't for you. [00:40:03] Craig Dalton: So most of the camps, well all the camps last year were up at Mammoth. And obviously like just being able to showcase all the great trails and roads up at Mammoth was an obvious thing for you to do both in terms of getting people pumped about that region that you love so much and getting people excited, maybe specifically for your event, but now you're expanding to Kansas. Let's talk about like, what's the orientation of those camps in Kansas? Is it just yet another great place to ride that people should go? Or is it trying to get you ready for any particular event? [00:40:35] Amanda Nauman: Uh, yeah. Yeah, they, so the first one is with the Flint Hills gravel ride, and the second one in July is with the Rockridge gravel. And so both of those events are run by Bobby Thompson and Dave and I met Bobby. . Like way back in 2017, the Dirty Kansas production or promotion company was the company that was, that DK was under at the time. They had dabbled in this idea of travel trips as well. So they did this like test run to do the Dirty River in the uk and Bobby was on that trip. So we met Bobby in that like travel trip, bike thing, atmosphere, and we became really fast good friends, and they had come out to Mammoth a couple times, um, in 2020 or 2021 and 2022. So we have always had this relationship with Bobby and he wanted to build his. Camps, or sorry, his events in Kansas that were more of like grassroots, like OG gravel style there. And that's very much the stuff that Dave and I fell in love with and we were like, well, , let's see if we can do tough camps in Kansas. Because Bobby came to me and said like, Hey, I'm not getting enough women signing up for these. Like, what am I doing wrong? And I was like, well, I don't think you're doing anything wrong necessarily. I think just like what you're offering is still intimidating for women. So let's try and maybe bring this camp idea to to soften. That experience or make it feel more palatable for women and for anyone as a whole. Um, so that was where that idea came from to build those camps there. And o obviously I have a really good reputation and love for that area in terms of what I've been able to do, um, with Unbound and all of. The experience that Dave and I have with that event. So I think sharing what we know and doing that and again in a place that um, means a lot to us was kind of why we wanted to do. . [00:42:35] Craig Dalton: So will those camps actually culminate in participation in the those events? [00:42:40] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, so that's how we structured. It was like a three day leading up to that event so that that final day you get to sort of execute everything that you've learned in the three days prior, which is, which is a fun way to do it. [00:42:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's super interesting. I want to touch on something that you mentioned offline, but just kind of reference there about just. Finding a way to bring more female athletes into the sport. And you mentioned some work you were doing with Sam at Rock Cobbler this year. , can you describe what you were doing? [00:43:11] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, so Chris Hall was on the marketing team helping Sam out this year, and he sent me a message a couple months ago and was like, Hey, Sam's at like 16% female participation. And he was like, how do we make that bigger? I'm not happy with it. And I was like, yeah, I'm not happy with that either. That's not a great number. So I was like, well, let's, you know, open 50 spots on the backend for any women. Sign up after it sells out. And I was like, I will volunteer my time if people wanna ask me any questions about it, if they're nervous, cuz maybe women don't necessarily want to email Sam or an unknown face behind an event and say like, Hey, is this for me? Maybe they'll feel more comfortable if it's for me. So they put a whole special section of the website called Ask Pan. People could email me their questions if they were concerned about stuff, and we got quite a few people that emailed and women that were just uncomfortable. Or didn't feel great about doing the short distance cuz it, it didn't feel like enough or they felt like a failure cuz they wanted to do the peb. And it was very eye-opening in the sense that I was like, yeah, maybe just women need that safe space to be able to say, Hey, I am uncomfortable. And they need somebody to tell them like, it's gonna be okay and you are fully capable of doing this. or maybe you're not fully capable and it's okay to do this other part of it instead, you know, it was, um, yeah, again, just a very eye-opening thing because women traditionally can just have a lot more self-doubt, I think, than men, and that idea that they perhaps might not feel like it's a space or. a discipline that's for them necessarily. So the more that I can try and crack that code on making women feel like they're more capable, I think that that's something that I'd like to, to focus on in the [00:45:09] Craig Dalton: future. . Yeah, I think that's super cool takeaway for a lot of event organizers listening. It's just like, find a female athlete that can be supportive and be open to questions like that, just to make people feel welcome. Yeah. [00:45:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. It seems so simple, but really like, and again, a lot of that has, has stemmed from talking to other women or like even my best friend, the one that I was talking to, that we went to Europe together. I always kind of use her as my litmus test. Like a better representation of all women in terms of how they're looking at the stuff. And she'll always second guess herself or say like, I don't think I can do that. And most of the times it's, cuz I feel like she's comparing it maybe to things that I do or things that she sees other women do, these like epic things and she's like, yeah, that's not for me. I'm like, no, it is like, you have no idea that you are fully capable of doing this if you want to. And a lot of times they, they won't even take the step to do it because. They're unsure. So the more that I can help, like, no, you can do it. If you want to do it, you should do X, Y, Z to, to get there. Um, yeah, those conversations I think are so important and for men listening to this too. You all have also a responsibility I think in to like make your female friends feel comfortable. Because a lot of times, like women just are too afraid to ask or they think that their questions are stupid. So the more that men. dads especially, um, brothers, the more that you all can make your female counterparts more comfortable, I think the better off we'll all be. Cuz it's not necessarily my job, only either , I think it's everyone's job to, to make it, to make it feel like something that they can do. [00:46:55] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for doing that by the way. Yeah. Yeah. It's important you've got a busy calendar of your own activities. , are there any events for the rest of the year that you're excited about doing? [00:47:09] Amanda Nauman: Oh, I don't know. I sort of don't, I don't really, I don't think I have anything. I was like super excited about rock cobbler and I even just did the short one this year. Um, yeah, I'm, I think I'm putting all of my eggs in the, the camp and mammoth basket and really focusing on calera because it is something that, Of steep learning curve, like obviously I haven't, I haven't finished it twice. So there's a reason why, and it's just a lot of like learning things the hard way I think when it comes to backpacking. So the idea of like even more self-sufficiency than I've been used to in the past is the, like that learning thing that I'm most excited about for this. [00:47:53] Craig Dalton: Is, was that the, if you could point to like the reasons why you haven't been able to complete the route, or is it a self-sufficiency issue? [00:48:02] Amanda Nauman: I would say it's equipment, honestly. Like the, well, the first year I couldn't even start it cuz of wildfires. So that was, that was a whole nother thing. Yeah. And then the second time I got stuck in like a lightning storm and on top of that my knee was bugging me cause I had picked. , I had made wrong equipment decisions, essentially. Yeah. And it's something where, you know, if I'm used to a certain position riding style and I have so many hours in that same position, I was jumping into something different, more weight on my bike, more everything. More walking. Yeah. . So it was just a, yeah, a learning curve of equipment and how I need to manage like, I don't know, just a very different style. Goal chasing essentially. [00:48:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so, it's so different. Yeah. I mean, just, just, just having a loaded bike in and of itself is like a game changer in what, how your knees feel in particular. [00:48:59] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Because I, so I had like a frame bag on my frame, and so I thought, well, I'll make my Q factor wider so that my knees aren't rubbing my frame and that. Q factor thing, just royally effed up my left knee . That was the thing that ultimately did me in, was changing one thing that I thought was gonna help me. But really, like your bodies are so fine tuned to a certain feel that if you throw that off and you're trying to do it for five days in a row, like, forget it. . Yeah. [00:49:27] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And cycling because of the repetitive nature of it, it's. , you get something wrong it you're doing over and over and over and over and over again. Eventually it's gonna add [00:49:36] Amanda Nauman: up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just again, stupid things where if I was telling somebody, I would say like, yeah, nothing new on race day. That's like one of my main mantras, and I of course, like I did something different for this major goal that I shouldn't have. , [00:49:53] Craig Dalton: something that was even harder than race day. Arguably. Yes, exactly. , . I love it. Well, I'm super excited for all the camps. I think for anybody listening like that is a good way to spend four days. Yeah, and I love that Mammoth tough went off well, and I'm excited for you guys doing it again. And obviously I'll put um, a link in the show notes to registration, which just opened up so. People listening, make sure to go out and grab your spot. [00:50:18] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Craig. Yeah. I think, and for anybody that's listening to this that does, hasn't listened to a bunch of the, the Gravel Ride episodes, go back and listen to the one that Craig did with Trek Travel in Jerron and. just be inspired to go, to go do a fun bike trip cuz I think yeah. I'm, I'm really gonna push that more for a lot of people who are, you know, race or event anxious and just need, like, need a good reason to go explore and do it in a different way. Yeah. [00:50:50] Craig Dalton: Gravel travel, it's where it's [00:50:52] Amanda Nauman: at. Yeah. Yes, exactly. . [00:50:55] Craig Dalton: So good to spend some time with you again and hopefully we catch up later this year. [00:50:59] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, thanks Craig. I appreciate it. [00:51:02] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Amanda as much as I did. She's such a great member of the gravel cycling community. I always learn a lot listening to the grody IO podcast and appreciate her perspective. She's been doing all these gravel events for a while. So just offers a great historical view as to what it was like, what it's like now and what are some of the ways that we can chart the course forward. I encourage you to check out all the tough ventures work. It's tough.ventures. As she mentioned during the show, they're doing the mammoth tough event, but they're also doing a series of camps this year, which I think will be super fun and informative to anybody who can attend. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.    

Doug Spencer is the State Grazing Specialist for the Natural Resources Conservation Service. He's based in Kansas, and his mission is to help ranchers and land managers maintain grasslands throughout his area and even across the high plains. While he works in a myriad of areas, his passion is native rangeland preservation. He lists several links to help range managers have the best data and info to help in this effort. douglas.spencer@usda.govRangeland Analysis Platform (RAP): https://rangelands.app/rap/ RAP Production Explorer: https://rangelands.app/production-explorer/Working Lands for Wildlife (WLFW): https://www.wlfw.org/landscapes/great-plains/ Vulnerability Guide for Woody Plant Encroachment: https://www.wlfw.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/E-1054WoodyEncroachment.pdf Yield Gap Info: https://www.wlfw.org/yieldgap/Flint Hills - 14th most intact grassland: https://conbio.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/csp2.626 

In episode 314, Bradley leads a panel discussion in Houston at a Safety Symposium led by the National Academy of Construction, in conjunction with Texas A&M University and the University of Texas - Austin.  The panel features Tricia Thibodeaux, Executive Director of Global HSE at Fluor; J.D. Slaughter, Chairman at S&B Engineers and Constructors; Jeremy Stovall, President at Brookstone Construction; and Todd Svihovec, Director of Project Services at Flint Hills Resources. The panel discussed methods to introduce more robust safety culture concepts in undergraduate education.  These include safety mental models such as Physical Safety, Mental Safety, and Emotional Safety.   This episode is brought to you by The Simple Sales Pipeline®. *** If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd sincerely appreciate it if you left a review on Apple Podcasts. The feedback helps improve the show and helps with our visibility as well. The more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it to make it even better.   Since we're asking for things . . . we'd also love it if you recommended this show to your friends and colleagues. Your network looks to people like you to learn where to invest their time and attention. We'd love the opportunity to add value to more people in our community. For more info: constructionleadershippodcast.com Follow us on Instagram: instagram.com/bradleyhartmannandco/ Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: Bradley Hartmann & Co.  

Hey listener! I can't wait for you to fall in love with today's guest, Jill Carr. I knew she'd be a fast friend when we first connected on Instagram (with a voice memo, of course! A girl after my own heart!) After our first zoom call I knew I couldn't keep her to myself and had to invite her on the podcast.  Key Takeaways: Jill Carr helps rural women extend their voice with podcasting. She offers a variety of services to launch, manage, and grow podcasts. Jill lives with her family on a ranch in the Flint Hills of Kansas. Before launching her own company she discovered podcasts on her 40-minute commute. She became a virtual assistant in 2018 and focused in on podcasting in the last year. Coach Kiah was a VA client and became Jill's first podcast. Jill was hooked! In 2021 she went all in on niching down into podcasting. Jill discusses the challenges of being a mom-treprenuer. She originally became her own boss to have more time with family, but realized it was easy to overextend herself. She learned better boundary setting. Jill says to always remember your “why” by revisiting it every day. It's important to have boundaries and systems. Jill shares three big reasons to consider podcasting. It's so accessible and is always where your audience is. You can take it along with whatever else has to be done like mowing the yard or doing dishes. Connection is the biggest piece of podcasting. You can network with guests, share your voice, and position yourself as an expert. It is so great for building community. Jill says podcasting is the best long-form content tool. You can repurpose content with reels, email newsletters, and blog posts.  Jill mentions Emily Reuschel of the Gather in Growth podcast Why bother podcasting when there are millions already out there? Jill says the numbers are deceiving: Only 53% of podcasts produced more than three episodes, 12% have released a new episode in the last quarter, and only 7% in the last month. This leaves fewer than 300,000 “competitors” but remember non all podcasts are for your ideal listener anyway. It's fun to begin but episodes 10-20 are hard! Stick with it and dig in for the long haul. Invest in technical help if you need to. Connect with Jill Find Jill on her website or connect on Instagram Follow for More Follow me, Molly Knuth on Instagram and Facebook. Or follow Molly Knuth Media on Facebook and Instagram.  

This week we sit down with Doug Roeder to discuss the 2022 UNBOUND 200. The draw of this event came at Doug from many directions and he has now set an audacious goal to join the 1000 mile club. Episode Sponsor: Athletic Greens Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Doug Roeder [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.   [00:00:28] Craig Dalton: This week on the show, we've got Doug rotor. Doug. And I actually know each other, gosh, for a couple decades. Now we met through mutual friends and recently reconnected over the sport of gravel cycling a few years back. Doug reached out knowing that I did this podcast and mentioned that. He was heading out to Unbound. I knew he was also heading back here in 2022. So I thought it'd be interesting to get them on the podcast and just talk through his journey with Unbound. Talk about this year's event. Talk about how he's managing to fit it all in as a professional with a family here in the bay area. I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do too. Before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor our friend at athletic greens. A G one by athletic greens is a product I use literally every day. It's got 75 high quality vitamins minerals, whole food source, superfoods, probiotics, and antigens. To help you start your day. Right. This special blend of ingredients supports your gut health, your nervous system, your immune system. Your energy recovery, focus and aging. All the things. I think what I've keyed in on, on athletic greens. And I remember I've been a gosh, I've been a subscriber for many, many years now. Predating the podcast. I love that it's an all in one supplement. It's quite easy in the morning for me to take a scoop and a cup of water with ice And know that it's got the multivitamins, I need it's lifestyle friendly. So whether you eat keto, paleo vegan dairy-free or gluten-free. It's all good in ag one. It contains less than one gram of sugar no gmos no nasty chemicals artificial anything while still tasting good. Let's be honest as gravel, cyclists. We often go deep into the pain cave and just need a little bit of extra attention. To our nutrition and diet just to make sure we're recovering well athletic greens and has over 7,005 star reviews and is recommended by professional athletes and trusted by leading health experts such as tim Ferris and michael Right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition, especially heading into the gravel race season. It's just one scoop in a cup of water every day. That's it? No need for a million different pills or supplements. To look out for your health. To make it easy. Athletic greens is going to give you a free, one of your supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is is it athletic greens.com/the gravel ride? Again, that's athleticgreens.com/the gravel ride to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Would that business behind us? Let's jump right in to my conversation with doug rotor Doug welcome to the show. [00:03:24] Doug Roeder: Hey, Greg. Thanks a lot. Great to be here [00:03:26] Craig Dalton: I appreciate you taking the time to join me after Unbound 200. I'm glad you got to the finish line. I can't wait to dig into your adventure out there. [00:03:34] Doug Roeder: and adventure. It was and yeah, happy to talk. Great to see you. Great to be with you. Can't wait to get out with you sometime live on a bike. This will have to suffice for now, though. [00:03:43] Craig Dalton: Indeed. So for the listener, Doug and I met each other, gosh, I don't wanna date us too much, but it's probably 20, 25 years ago. [00:03:50] Doug Roeder: Long time ago. Yeah. Team and training up in the city, [00:03:53] Craig Dalton: And through mutual [00:03:54] Doug Roeder: And mutual friends. [00:03:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah, exactly. So to set the stage, Doug, are you, or are you not a professional athlete? [00:04:01] Doug Roeder: No, absolutely not. No, not even anywhere close. [00:04:04] Craig Dalton: So, so Doug's an endurance athlete, like most of us and, and not an unaccomplished one you've you've achieved multiple Ironmans. If I'm, if I'm remembering correctly and always been fit. [00:04:16] Doug Roeder: Yeah. So well, yeah. I, I guess right around the time we met, I was very unfit. I had kinda worked 80 hour weeks all through my twenties and didn't. It finally got to a place in my career in my late twenties, where I had a little bit more predictability on my schedule. And so started joined team in training and did one and only one Ironman with team in training. But in training for that had did a half Ironman and some other events and really kind of felt like, triathlon was a, a great way to kind of get out in the bay area and, and try different things. And so I would never say I was a triathlete. I'd do one or two a year wildflower in particular, the long course there. But cycling kind of became part of my life at that point. I met my wife on a blind date, bike ride. I started spending time up in Santa Rosa for work every other month. And a gentleman up there took me on a lot of road rides, your pine flat east side, west side, Sweetwater Springs. Always told me that if I ever had a chance to ride king Ridge, I should. So when Levi started his ride, I started doing that. And so it was kinda I'd pick one or two big things a year to do and train for those. And that was kinda my, my. [00:05:11] Craig Dalton: That makes sense. And then at what point along the way, did you discover gravel cycling? [00:05:16] Doug Roeder: So, yeah, I kind of just for a decade plus kind of kept doing the same couple of things over and over cycling with something I would do with work colleagues. I commuted from the city down to the peninsula once a week. Once I had little kids just to get along one long ride in a week. And then it was 2018, I think. Was the last year that wildflower happened and I was kind of poking around for something new to do. And a buddy on the east coast who I'd ridden quite a bit with and remembered that I was from Kansas said, Hey, you wanna check out this thing? In Kansas, there's this big race, this big bike ride. It's a gravel ride it's called it was called it's on dirty Kansas. I said that's Ryan that's. That's ridiculous. Why would I, I go to Kansas to ride a bike. Like I go there to go to a chief's game or go see family and friends. That's that's insane. And plus the roads in Kansas, like why would you do that? Why would I ride dirt roads in Kansas and just promptly about it? Dismiss it outright. No joke. A week later, I'm talking to my father who lives, he's retired in central Kansas. He's got 30 cattle. He's kind of a hobby rancher. And he had been staying with a. At a little town outside, Amoria called Opie. This was in may. And when he was there, he drove around the Flint Hills. He's telling me how beautiful the Flint Hills were in the spring. The Emerald green, after the ranchers burn off all the grass, it comes back this beautiful green and to someone from Kansas. I mean the Flint Hills, I I'm from Western Kansas central Kansas went to high school and Eastern Kansas. So I'm kind of from all over Kansas, the Flint Hills are just something you drive past on your. Somewhere else. There's really no, there, there there's, it's too Rocky to farm. There's no major population centers. It's pretty, you see it from the highway, but there's really no reason to go there. So my father lived his entire life in Kansas had never spent any time in the Flint Hills. And so he, he was there with this old friend toured around the Flint Hills and he's telling me about it and he's like, oh, and there's this big bike race. Have you heard of it? And I'm like, yeah, a buddy just told me about it. I can't believe thousands of people travel. To Emporia, Kansas, which again, to native Kansas, Emporia's kind of the middle of nowhere. It's like for a bike race. And my father tells me that his friend, they they're looking to, they wanted to rent their house out to some racers, but they didn't wanna rent a stranger. So he said, if, if you ever wanna come to Kansas and do this bike race, you know, you got a place to stay, you can rent this house outside just outside of town. So I'm like, yeah, no, that's why I'm not. That's ridiculous. Why would I do that? And then a few weeks later, this was like the third, the straw that broke the camels back. Right. We have a friend staying with us, a friend of my wife's it's an ER doc in Philly. And he had come out to do escape from Alcatraz, big multi-sport athlete CYC lacrosse racer, and he was staying with us at our house. And were we my wife and I had signed, but do escape that. And we're talking to, to Dr. Lambert and he said, Hey, you're Doug, you're from Kansas. Have you heard of this big bike race in Kansas? My coach. And I really want to do it. And I'm like, you're the third person who's mentioned this thing to me in the last, like 10 days now. I'm, I'm kind of intrigued. And he had a plot to, to kind of hack the lottery at the time. Yeah, they were promoting and I'll just keep talking, you cut me off, whatever, but I figure you can edit a lot of this. So he his, his idea was his coach was a woman and there was a, they were trying to get more women to ride. The race, then 200 for 200 was the promotion 200 women ride 200 miles. Remember that. And Dr. Lambert's coach Amelia woman really wanted to come and do the race as well. And at the time you could, I think you still can, you could register as a group. So it was an all or nothing kind of thing, or up to four people could register for the lottery together. And he said, well, make Amelia our, our, you know, team captain quote unquote, and she'll get in. Then the rest of us will draft off of that. And I was like, you know, I have this high school buddy. That I've run a couple of ultras with in Kansas. He's just the kind of guy, cause they also gave preference to locals. I was like, we'll sign him too. I'll give him call. And so the four of us signed up and we got in that way on the lottery. And I don't know if our, our hacks helped or not, but one way, you know, we got in. So now it's January of 2019. And I'm, I've been accepted to Unbound, wildflower had been canceled. So, you know, now I've got a new thing to train for. And I had to go get a gravel bike and try and figure out what the heck gravel biking was all about. And I had taken an old road bike and put the fattest tires I could on it and kind of started exploring some, some non paved roads down here. And it seemed like a not insane thing to do. So I went up to my local bike. And they're a specialized dealer. So I ended up with a diverge and set it up tubus and started training. [00:09:41] Craig Dalton: Great. You know, that's amazing. It, it sounds like you were going to be haunted by Unbound until you did it with all [00:09:48] Doug Roeder: That's kind of, [00:09:49] Craig Dalton: you [00:09:49] Doug Roeder: it was kind of, yeah, that was everybody was coming at me about it. And I then a, a great guy wanted to actually travel to the middle of Kansas. And I think this is a good point to state it's. It's hard to overstate. How preposterous, the notion of Unbound gravel sounds to like a native cans who, who wasn't a cyclist as a kid, but learned to cycle in the bay area. I mean, the notion that thousands of people from all over the country, or even all over the world would travel to Emporia, Kansas to ride hundreds of miles of the crappies roads. You can imagine in the middle of tornado season. It's just it's ridiculous, but yeah, you're right. I was kind of being haunted by it and there, I was at a point where I needed, I kind of wanted to try something new and so I signed up. [00:10:35] Craig Dalton: And you sign up directly for the [00:10:36] Doug Roeder: Yeah. And there was some debate around that. My, my buddy in Kansas who had, who had never, you know, he'd done some writing. He'd never, I don't think he'd ever run ridden a century before. He's like, you sure we should do the 200, maybe we should do the hundred. And I mentioned that to our, our friends from Philly and they're like, no, if we're gonna travel all the way to Kansas, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna get our money's worth. And I was like, yeah, no, it's kind of 200 or nothing fell. And I kind of felt the same way actually. So yeah, we went straight for the 200. [00:11:01] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I feel like back in 2019 and, and earlier, like the 200, the, the 100 felt different when you were signing up for it. Not that I've done it, but these days I feel like it's got equal promotion. Certainly the two hundreds, the marquee part of the event, but also that they realized like a hundred is pretty good as well. [00:11:18] Doug Roeder: Oh, and a lot of fast riders. So yeah, no, it's the a hundred has definitely become a thing and yeah, even the shorter distances are, are filling up with people now, too. So. [00:11:28] Craig Dalton: And so 2019, that was pre pandemic. Right? So the race actually went off at that point. [00:11:33] Doug Roeder: The race went off. It was hot and humid and we, it was the north course. It was the first year they had switched back to the north course, which I guess they'd done it a few times. And we had a nice, strong south wind out of the gates. So we flew 60 miles with a tail. made the turn and on that north course, most of the climbing is kind of in the middle section. So right around the time of day when it gets hot you start putting in some, a lot of kinda steep climbs on rough roads. And our two C cross buddies took off at that point. And I was sticking with my high school buddy. And I think the, the, you know, growing up. Growing up cycling wise here in the bay area, climbing's comes pretty easy. You get, you can't really ride 10 miles without climbing a thousand feet around here. So, I was having a decent time. The heat's a little tough to deal with. But my friend kind of got pummeled and we emerged from those Hills into the headwind. We got to council Grove and he was suffering from heat exhaustion at that point. And so I ended up riding, riding it in myself, late in the race and finished after midnight. And that was that. [00:12:34] Craig Dalton: to get to the finish line in your first one. I think that's pretty amazing. Did you. I know I want to talk about this year's version, but I feel like talking about your first experience is also equally valuable because going, going in there naive about what you were to experience, how did you prepare for it? Obviously, you you'd done Ironman triathlons. You'd done these long distance events that might have taken you north of 10, 12 hours. How did you get, what was the mindset going into 200 miles? Had you ever ridden that far before? Okay. [00:13:05] Doug Roeder: No, no. I think the longest ride I had done was, you know, what was Levi had his long course, which had a couple of different names the Panser whatever. And so that was kinda a hundred, 1,320, I think, with a lot of climbing. And I had done the version where you get off road onto some gravels. So I took my, my road bike on some gravel roads up in Sonoma county, which was a great way. Break a carbon wheel, which I did. But anyway, that's a different story. So the mindset was just to get, and I'd trained for some long runs as well. So I'd done some 40 and 50 mile runs. And you know, when I was training for those, I never, you never go out and run 40 or 50 miles, but yet stack up big days, you know? So you go run 21 day and maybe 25 the next. So I took the same kind of approach cycling wise. I would do. You know, you know, kind of do my normal early morning rides with my buddies and then maybe get out for 180 or 90 mile and then try the next day to go then ride 60 or 70 gravel miles over in the east bay on the east side of the Dunbarton bridge, where it gets good and windy out there on those salt pond levies felt like that was a pretty good Kansas simulator. And so I would try and stack up a couple of big days and then, you know, every few weeks kind of build back up to. And the mindset was just survival. We just wanted to finish. We didn't really have a time goal. It was just get her done. And that's kinda, that's sort of how it went, [00:14:27] Craig Dalton: That's what I always thought about with training here in the bay area, because we have so much climbing, I'm UN very, very unlikely to hit that mileage. Like even if it made sense to ride 200 miles, unless I was riding on the road, I'm not gonna hit that mileage, but I can certainly do a absolutely punishing day of climbing. [00:14:45] Doug Roeder: Yeah, no. And that's, that is the challenge, cuz I mean, if you go, when I go ride 80 or 90 miles, you're gonna climb eight or 9,000 feet around here. Now you've got the benefit. You can look at some of the Strava's of some of the, the gals up in your neck of the woods who kind of tend to win that Unbound and see what kind of stuff they do. They'll go do hundred 40 mile crazy stuff. So yeah, I, for me trying to find, you know, in Kansas, the wind is always a factor. Finding a place where you can ride for, I don't know, four or five, six hours where it's a steady effort is kind of hard in the bay area. And so I've found this, you know, again, east side of the Dunbarton bridge, the coyote Hills, regional park, there's a nature preserve. So you can kind of get a 30 or 40 mile flat-ish gravel loop in over there. And I'll do a few of those. And like I said, it's generally windy in the afternoon, so it's, that's kind of become, I can't get anyone to do it with me. So I'm listening to your podcasts or music and the earbuds, but. So I do do a little bit of solo training for it, but yeah, that's kind a key training [00:15:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting. It's so often I talk and think about the type of gravel that's underneath our wheels. When we go to these different parts of the country, but climate and wind play equally at big factors. And. It feeling hard and different. Like I know when I ride in wind, which I don't tend to ride in a lot of like, that's demoralizing to me. So imagining like pointing myself a 40 mile headwind section in Kansas might be a little difficult. [00:16:07] Doug Roeder: Yeah, but it's great. You can go, you can practice it here in the bay area. There are places, but yeah. Getting your it's, you know, psychological training for that kind of torture is is a big part of it. And you know, the other aspect of getting ready for that first one was just preparing to be able to fix my bike. I've got a great local bike shop here at Melo. They've taken great care of me over the years, but like what, what, what am I gonna do if I, you know, flat my tubus tire or. Bust my chain and a water crossing, which I ended up doing. So I had to stop. I had to pop out a, a link and fix my chain. You know, there's all kinds of stuff you gotta do. If you, if your goal is to finish you gotta be ready. And fortunately, I've watched a few YouTube videos and had the right tools to take care of that, that first year. But it was, it was non trivial getting across the finish line. And especially, yeah, once my buddy was suffering from, you know, heat exhaustion, We were at the last checkpoint minutes before they were gonna shut it down. And he packed up his bike and put it in the minivan. And I rode off into that by myself with lights and just kind of chased fireflies and other racers. And at that point in that race, the sun's going down, it cools off. It actually kind of became my favorite part of that race. It's just a different trippy thing on the north course. You'd end up going across this lake whole lake. You ride across a dam, there's people, boats partying, and you've fireflies, and it's just so surreal 70 into your day to be in that place that it does kind of, yeah, it's, it's quite an experience for sure. [00:17:28] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I can only imagine. So of the four of you, it sounds like what just did three of [00:17:33] Doug Roeder: Three finished. Yeah. The two cycle crossers. I think they, they finished around 10:00 PM. I, I rolled in after my late start and waiting for my buddy at kinda one 30 in the morning. But even then rolling down commercial street Emporia, I had a dozen kids chasing me down the shoot on both sides. I mean, it was just a bizarre trippy thing. And my buddy was at the finish line smiling at that point, he had recovered. So it was quite it was a really fun thing to finish and a hard, a hard, hard thing to do for sure. [00:18:01] Craig Dalton: huge accomplishment. Now, are you one of those people that can finish an event like that? And someone puts the sign up form in front of you and you're like, sign me up. I'm gonna do it the next year. [00:18:11] Doug Roeder: Absolutely not. So the, yeah, you know, the wildflower lawn course is a great example. I did. I think I did that thing 16 times and every time I swore I would never do it again, I was like this, this was awful. I feel terrible. I'm not ever gonna do this again. But then a week later you're like, I think I could probably do it a little bit better next time. Right. And so, and there was the fact that my buddy didn't finish and he had never DNF anything in his life. He's actually the one who talked me into doing my first ultra. And so he was furious, absolutely furious that he did not finish that race. And so he's like, no, we're signing up. We're gonna go do it. I'm gonna finish. And I'm like, okay, I guess. And then the pandemic hits and it got canceled in, in 2020. But we signed back and he trained like a maniac all through the pandemic. I ended up spending a bunch of time in Kansas during the pandemic. [00:18:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:18:56] Doug Roeder: So he, and I would go out for rides in the Flint Hills and I would rent bikes at sunflower bike shop in Lawrence, Kansas, and just, they had their divergence set up with tubes and I just was blowing the things up right. And left. And so, decided I, I bought a Kansas bike found a salsa cutthroat, which is a monster truck of a bike with 29 inch mountain bike wheels and got that, put it in my buddy's garage. And so that's. So he, he, he used that to train on used that as sort of, and, and got himself a better bike as well. But we were kind committed once and I think had he finished, we may never have done it again, but the fact that he didn't finish, we kinda signed get him the finish line in and had two years to train for it. [00:19:38] Craig Dalton: and so were you successful getting 'em across the finish line? [00:19:40] Doug Roeder: We did, we, we got it done. Went out at a nice, slow pace. We did not have the rest of the crew with us. One of 'em had a baby, so it was just the two of us that year. And his 80 year old dad who lives in Bakersfield came to be our support crew. So coverage, Flint, where to the same north course, we kind set up the day before, but we went out and again, south wind, hot, humid just punishing. But we took our time. Got the nutrition ride, you know, any of these long events, they're, they're eating competitions as much as anything. But he had had two years to train and, and we got it done. We finished around 1230. So again, I guess they call it that the breakfast club. So we both, we crossed the finish line together just a wonderful day out on the bike. And it was really gratifying to, to get him over the line. And that was when he was, he told me that we were going for the thousand mile cha [00:20:30] Craig Dalton: And what is that? [00:20:32] Doug Roeder: So, you know, if you ride the 200 race five times, they give you a CICE and it's part it's on the, you know, in the award ceremony on Sunday morning. And yeah, it's, it's something. So he, he and I are never gonna, you know, win our age group. That's just not who we are. But we could, we're pretty good at not stop 'em. So that's the goal now, apparently. And so, yeah, [00:20:56] Craig Dalton: Now you're slightly. You're slightly off sequence with your buddy. You may get there ahead of him. Are you gonna go for six? If that's the case? [00:21:04] Doug Roeder: I don't know. We'll see. And, and then, and you know, crazy things happen. I may be injured. I may not make one. So you just dunno how these things are gonna go, but become a goal here now in ours to try and finish that thing. And yeah, [00:21:16] Craig Dalton: Okay. [00:21:16] Doug Roeder: we're even more off sync. Once we get to 20 to this year's event, I'll tell you about that, but it's become a thing, you know, I go back there. I see family It's you know, as complicated as life gets later on with work and kids and everything to have a day or two a year, where all you gotta do is one simple thing. And it may a hard thing, but it's just one it's it's it's really enjoy. Wake up in old and try and bang out two miles and miles bike is it's refreshing psychologically. And it kinda helps me focus my training. [00:21:46] Craig Dalton: I [00:21:47] Doug Roeder: Yeah, we're gonna stick with it until we can't here for the next few years. [00:21:50] Craig Dalton: I love, I love how this all comes back to your connection to, to Kansas, and it's gotta make it even more special just to be there and be on that journey. [00:21:59] Doug Roeder: It is. And it's yeah, I mean, on that Northern course, there are some of those roads that I swear. I, I hunted pheasants on with my grandfather when I was a kid. And it's just surreal that again, thousands of cyclists from all over the planet are riding down these roads, getting flaps, just dealing with terrible conditions. Know, you might have it's the beauty is stark. And it's, I'm not gonna say it's as stunning as the grand canyon, it's not, but there is a similar discrepancy between the pictures you see and what you experience there. Just the vastness of it just can't on film. And when you're out there with this, you know, huge crowd of people it's, it's pretty stunning and and it's hard and. Yeah, my relatives, my aunts and uncles, I, I got buzzed by an aunt and her pilot boyfriend in school, bus, Piper, Cub in 20. So it's become a thing everyone forward to coming and doing it's lot for that reason. And then it's kinda crazy too. You've got all these great bay area athletes who come out there and, you know, Alison Terick from Penn, she's a household name in Emporia. You know, the winner the first year we did, it was Amity Rockwell. It just was amazing to me, the. Bay area cyclists. Who've made their names in Nowheresville, Kansas. It's just kind of cracks me up. So [00:23:11] Craig Dalton: It really is. You were talking about pacing in your 20, 21 effort. Do you find it hard? Not to get sort of wrapped up in the pace of everybody else? Were you and your, your buddy [00:23:21] Doug Roeder: yeah, that's [00:23:21] Craig Dalton: of just specifically disciplined and chastising each other? Don't chase that wheel. We gotta go slower. [00:23:27] Doug Roeder: that's you know, even though. Our focus, especially after having the one DNF in 19 was to maintain a steady pace, not go out too fast. You get that tailwind, you get in a group. Drafting's wonderful. But then you get to that first rough road. And at that point, You know, we saw Quinn Simmons running along the side of the road. You know, pros have blown up, you hit the rough flinty, gravel at speed and bad things start happening, but it's also great to be in a pack. We met two high school buddies who were half our age from Wisconsin, from some little town. They were doing their first race together. First bike race ever for the first bike event that I had signed up for the 200. So we started riding with them and we're trading poles. Next thing, you know, you know, there's not a cloud in the sky, but you feel a spray on, you know, a moist spray on your back and I'm like, what's going on back there? Oh man, you got sealant spraying all over the place. It's like pin wheeling outta your wheel. And so, yeah, it's easy to get caught up in the fun, especially early on. And man, we sprayed sealant all over two counties, but never went flat. But yeah, then we reeled it in the, the Hills eventually, or the heat will reel you in at some point or the headwind or ball three. But yeah, it is, it's difficult, especially early on when you're riding with a pack. [00:24:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Since I haven't been out there myself, I'm finally getting a picture after having spoken to so many people about this event in particular, my conversation recently with Mark Allen and he was describing, you know, you're following some wheels and you'd see someone get antsy because they wanted to pass someone and they would think, oh, I can just kind of ride over this Rocky section really fast. And sure enough, those Flint rocks, it's a recipe for a flat tire right [00:25:03] Doug Roeder: Yeah, it's just right there. And then every water crossing. I mean, I, this year, every water crossing, there were at least half a dozen people in the next quarter mile fixing flats. And I learned that first year in 2019, I, I dinged my chain in the water crossing and ended up having to fix it that you gotta be real careful, especially in that murky water. You can't see the bottom. You have no idea how deep it is. All, all kinds of sharks and yeah, you learn some things, but. [00:25:26] Craig Dalton: what's your, what's the technique then? Are you just kind of easing off and not kind of trying to keep full speed through the water sections? [00:25:32] Doug Roeder: Definitely. Yeah, you gotta slow down. Or if you see people, you see someone hit a line and they emerge safely. You take that line. If you're on your, at that point, depending where you're on the race, the Northern course didn't have that many water crossing this Southern course, especially with all the rain in the weeks, leading up to lot of water crossings. And I think a lot of flats came out those water crossing. So it's, [00:25:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:25:52] Doug Roeder: you just gotta be careful and they can be slick. And then there's just a whole wide variety of treachery out there. [00:25:57] Craig Dalton: In 2022 had a new variety of treachery that the last few years hadn't really been known for, as I understand it. [00:26:04] Doug Roeder: Indeed. And we were all excited. The Southern course, a little bit less vertical kind of had a reputation for kinda more rolling Hills rather than the sharp. I had been in Kansas for 10 days, like leaning up to the race and so knew that it had rained a lot knew that we were in for some wet conditions. But the temperatures were pretty cool and kinda day before it, you kinda not rain at all, then some popped overnight. And and yeah, but the, the cooler temperatures were just wonderful. I mean, you rolled out in the morning and it was a lot of people were chilly right. Outta the gates. But yeah, not much wind either. That was kind of a nice thing. And it was just kind of a nice, fun, easy role. And again, we were trying to, trying to get everybody over the line. So we we got to all the first neutral water stop. We were climbing the hill up to that at around mile 40. And I'm on the left side of a double track behind this woman. And I hear a guy shouting over my shoulder on your. On your left? No, we're coming up the middle and I look over my shoulder and a dozen dudes just blazing up this hill right down the grass between the two tracks. And it was the lead group from the hundred mile race. We the course with them up to that 40 mile point, they, and we kept going south. But as they blasted by the guy across from me said, Hey, that was Peter Shagan. And I'm like, what? This. time, green Jersey winner just blew by me in the middle of Kansas. How weird is that? And the day just got bizarre, more bizarre from that point on. [00:27:28] Craig Dalton: So, let me ask you a question. So that going into this one in 2022, it's your third year. what are a couple things you learned in the first two that you took, whether it's changes in your gear, changes in what you had when you were coming to your pit station? [00:27:42] Doug Roeder: Yeah, lots of real food pit stations be very disciplined about checking the chain. Luing the chain get more water than you think you need. Cause 40 miles might go by in a couple hours, or it might go by if you hit a stiff wind in some obstacles or a flat or something, it could take a lot longer. And as chilly as it was early in the day, I mean, the sun did pop out later in the day they got real hot. So if you kind of planned your hydration based on. What you were doing early in the day that, that didn't work later in the day. So to always take more hydration than you need real food versus just, you know, all goose, we'd roll up some sandwiches or whatever different things. And then we carry a lot of extra, you know, CO2 S and tube and, and things to fix punctures, which fortunately we didn't have to use this year, but. I think just being prepared for everything so that you don't end up in a situation where you have a mechanical, that requires you to all the way to you didn't have the right tool or you know, ran out whatever it would be very frustrating. And so [00:28:42] Craig Dalton: be a shame, particularly if tr trying to train up to 200 miles, you, you put in so much time and then to go do that and have something that you could have solved toward you would be terrible. So were, were you wearing a hydration pack? [00:28:56] Doug Roeder: Yes. Yeah, definitely. I got, I take a two and a half hydration pack and then two bottles. The other big learning is you gotta keep the bottles covered or have 'em someplace safe because the water it's all cattle, ranch land. And especially when you're spraying a lot of water everywhere once they get muddy, you don't really wanna drink out of them. So people will rubber put baggies over 'em things like that. Or some of 'em now have caps on 'em. So yeah, you learn a few things like that. [00:29:22] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so interesting. Okay. So interestingly, you know, when I've been hearing accounts of the 2022 event, depending on your pace, people seem to have had very different experiences. So when, when you listen to the pros, they seem to have gotten through some of these. Hugely muddy sections either got through it before it rained. So they just rode, rode the road. When you guys might have been hiking at early slopping through mud, or they had, you know, it just hit 'em at a different point in the race. When were you encountering mud and what was it like? [00:29:56] Doug Roeder: Yeah, mile 1 25. . We, we rolled into that. And I was on, you know, the salsa cutthroat with the 29 inch wheels and 2.2 inch tires. And I'm like, ah, this thing's, this thing's a mountain bike. I can ride through this. No problem. And I made it, I don't know, maybe 50 yards and just was slipping and sliding. Then it was time to hike and the smart folks, maybe some. Folks with cyclo cross backgrounds picked up their bikes. So they didn't keep accumulating mud fools like me pushed it along until the mud kind of clogged my wheel. Then I was stuck. Fortunately I had noticed in the shops in Emporia the previous day, everybody was handing out those paint sticks, the paint, stirring sticks. I was like, huh, maybe they know something that, that I, that I should know. And I, so I grabbed a couple of those and they were incredibly useful for cleaning the mud off. And that's, you know, I kinda. Tried a couple different tactics but pushed through it as fast as I could and got to the end. And there was kinda a stream where you could rinse your bike off. I hit it faster than my buddy did. And when he, he hit it a little after I did and it slowed him down a lot more. So I ended up waiting probably 20 minutes for him to get through it and it kind of crushed him carrying his bike through that. He came out the other side and was just an absolute wreck. So, and at that point, the sun came out. So we had just kinda, I'd had a nice break. He had suffered through carrying his bike through this stuff, [00:31:12] Craig Dalton: Yeah. If you think about it, you know, he is got a, you know, call it a 20 pound bike. He probably had 10 pounds of mud on it and gear, you know, it's just backbreaking work, pushing a bike. They just weren't designed to be pushed. [00:31:24] Doug Roeder: push or trying to carry it with a, you know, a bag strapped underneath it and a bunch of gear inside it. I mean, it was just a freaking mess and. Yeah, everybody was in that stream, washing their bikes off. It was a pretty miserable scene. And there were these two little kids that were, they were promising everybody. That that was the last. Which it ended up not being, and I'm still those I'm those two little kids sour folks and trying every, but was brutal was [00:31:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:31:52] Doug Roeder: both through that. [00:31:53] Craig Dalton: And I just think about that at mile 1 25, having to kind of reset and just having gone through that moment and say, I've got 75 frigging, more miles of gravel to go, not even thinking about there being mud because of the lying kids. You thought you were gonna be cruising back into Emporia. So you guys get back on your bike, you start hitting it is your buddy starting to recover a little. [00:32:13] Doug Roeder: No, cuz there was a, there was some decent climbing right after that. And around mile one 30, there was kind of a long climb. Like I said, the sun was back out at the time we were doing it and his stomach just failed him at that point. He got sick on the side of the road, tried to remount, tried to keep going and couldn't do it. He was done. So, he was upset. I was upset, sad for him. Really sad for him at that point I kinda looked at my watch. I was like, If I take off now, I know I'd kind of been resting a little bit waiting for him. I was like, I could, I could get in before midnight. I could, you know, and the party closes down and pour you at midnight. So I'd never experienced the post party. So I was all motivated to make some, some lemonade outta the lemons and and took off at that point. Yeah, I, [00:32:53] Craig Dalton: what a tough moment for you. Just, I mean, to know that he had, he had had that issue a couple years back. And to go on and go forward when he's sitting there on the side of the road, which obviously I'm sure any friend would want you to continue, but I'm sure you rolled out with a little bit of a heavy heart. [00:33:09] Doug Roeder: Well, I just knew that I'd have to come back one more time. So yeah, I, you know, these things happened and he was upset. I was upset. I felt a little bit of a heavy heart, but mostly like, okay, this is just things happen out here. And he called the Jeep and they came to get him. I failed to mention, you know, his dad who's 81, 82 and had been our support crew. The previous year. He had so much fun being our support crew that he had signed up for the five mile race and had bought a bike and was, and so I was, he was looking forward to just getting back to seeing how his dad, when he'd received some texts from his dad, A picture of him in the pouring rain and saying how much funny it had. And so he was excited to get back and see his dad and meet me at the finish. So we were actually in pretty good spirits. Surprisingly, it's just, again, it's one of those things that happens and if you can't eat and stomach's, can't go on. So he's a pretty upbeat dude. And so I took off at that point and rode hard for 70 miles. I finished around 11, 15 in the dark and party was still going on. So I got, got a couple free beers and some tacos and it was it was really fun. And we we had, I didn't mention this. We had given a few folks rides from Kansas city down to Emporia, and that was kind of a crazy experience too. Two folks two cyclists from New York, apparently there's a New York city gravel scene. And one of the racers was a 25 year old with a, a bike packing background. She was coming to do the 200, the other racer was a 37 year old father with a road racing background. He was there to do the hundred. Neither of 'em had been to Kansas before. Their flight had been delayed and they got in at like four in the morning. And so their friends had gone down to Emporia. They needed a ride. They got on the Facebook page and my friend had noticed them and we had room in the car. So just riding down to Emporia again with these two folks. Had never been to Kansas before they're New York city, gravel writers and they're, they're coming here to, to challenge themselves. It was, it was pretty shocking for two like high school buddies from Kansas to see that. And so one of them came across the finish line while we were sitting there around midnight. And again, it's the range of folks you encounter there. Folks like the last gentleman you had on Peter Sagan gravel writers from New York. It's just, it's, it's very strange to me. And and kind of fun. [00:35:18] Craig Dalton: Have you noticed it blow up even further from the 2019 experience to now in terms of the scale of everything? Yeah, [00:35:23] Doug Roeder: The scale the range of backgrounds it's it really has kept, kept going and it's, it's. Again, you know, we have some of the most amazing cycling on the planet here in the bay area. But I still get a big hoot outta going and riding crappy roads in Kansas with thousands of all over the world. It's, it's a weird thing, but its. [00:35:42] Craig Dalton: I think that, I mean, the team, we started it always. Had this idea of what the community experience was gonna be like for the event and always, and this is what I, I love about every event organizer that I talk to. It's a, it's a love letter to your local trails, right? You're you've got the opportunity to put on an event and you're gonna just wanna showcase everything that your home town has to offer. And that's when we get the best events, like when they come from the. [00:36:09] Doug Roeder: And it's inspired. I mean, there's a, there's a gravel ride in the Kansas or Missouri area, like every weekend now. So it's, there's a lot of folks, you know, and then there are people kind of replicating the model in other states and and I mean, the grasshoppers have been going on out here forever, but it, it it's really kind of created a template, I think for a lot of folks to create races in places where folks hadn't thought to do it before and a lot of fun. [00:36:35] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's, I've talked to with a bunch of event organizers about sort of the economic impact of bringing these types of events to rural communities and the dynamics that come into play. You actually get supportive city councils and land [00:36:47] Doug Roeder: Yes [00:36:49] Craig Dalton: Whereas I, you know, [00:36:50] Doug Roeder: I mean, I, yeah. [00:36:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. You get the high school kids coming out. Whereas out here in the bay area, you get nothing but resistance cuz no one wants anybody to come ride here. [00:37:00] Doug Roeder: Yeah. And as big as Levi's rad got at one point, I mean, there were thousands and thousands of people. I think you, you might meet a few locals. Who'd be out cheering on their front lawn, but a lot of folks just resented all the cyclists, you know, hogging the roads that day. And whereas out in the middle of Emporia, I mean, everybody is incredibly happy to see you. It's it's really kind of fun. [00:37:19] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I imagine out in the smaller communities or even going by someone's house, out on the Prairie, like they're out there just enjoying the spectacle that comes by once a. [00:37:28] Doug Roeder: I think, you know, in the, the, what's the name of the town where the second checkpoint was Madison, I think the entire town showed up downtown. You know, and that was, they were just having a big whole party and it's yeah. So the communities where they have the support stops really show up in force You got volunteer kids, you know, Manning the crew for hire. And it's just a, yeah, there's a lot of enthusiasm for the racers and the race. [00:37:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Well, thanks Doug, for sharing so much about this story, I love that you've been doing this. I love that gravel's kind of reconnected us socially and we'll definitely get out and do some riding together at some point in the near future. [00:38:04] Doug Roeder: Congratulations on the podcast. It was it really warm my heart to find this. As I kind of discovered the whole gravel scene, I was oblivious to it. Like I said, until, you know, a few random people clued me into this race in Kansas and it's it's been really fun to reconnect and see, see what you've done with this podcast. And I hope to get you out to Emporia. We gotta bed for you and Kansas. Anytime you're ready to come out. [00:38:24] Craig Dalton: I love it. The draw continues to get heavier and heavier for me. So I think I'll get out there one of these days [00:38:30] Doug Roeder: Sounds good, Craig. I'll be. [00:38:32] Craig Dalton: upstairs. Right on. That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Huge. Thanks to my friend, Doug, for joining us and huge kudos to Doug for. Getting across that finish line of which sounded like a tough deal this year. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. Simply visit www.theridership.com. That's a free global cycling community, lots of smart and passionate athletes in there to connect with from all over the world. If you're able to support the show. Please visit, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Or if you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Another thank you to our sponsor athletic greens. They've been a long time sponsor of the show and a product that I really enjoy and use every day. So be sure to check it out@athleticgreens.com slash the gravel ride. That's going to do it until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

This week we sit down with Mark Allen from Wichita, Kansas to learn of his experience in the UNBOUND 100 in 2022. Mark started cycling three years ago on an undersized Walmart bike. He was overweight and dealing with some health issues that convinced him he needed to make some changes. An UNBOUND poster on the wall of a friend changed everything and started him on a journey that led to completing this years 100 mile route. Episode sponsor: Bike Index, non-profit bicycle registry and stolen bike recovery platform  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Mark Allen - UNBOUND 100 [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show, we're talking to Mark Allen from Wichita, Kansas, and talking to mark about his journey from being a non cyclist three years ago, to finishing the Unbound 100 this year. I very much enjoyed this conversation with mark and I hope you do too. I think it just goes to show all of us that regardless of the challenge. What's important is putting one foot in front of the other one pedal stroke in front of the other, and just keep moving forward. Before we jump in. I want to thank this week. Sponsor, bike index. Bike index is a nonprofit bicycle registry and stolen bike recovery platform. The platform has helped recovered. Over $18 million in stolen bicycles. And you know what? The one thing they all have in common is they freely registered their bikes on bike index. So head on over to bike index.org, register your bike. All you need is the serial number, make, model, and color of your bicycle. You'll get it in the system and hopefully you never need to use their services. If you do, they've built out of robust, stolen bike recovery platform. With tools that you can use to freely share your stolen bike on social media channels. As well as ways of actually advertising against your stolen bike. To your fellow cyclists in your area, it dramatically increases your chances of recovering a stolen bicycle. So please take a look@bikeindex.org. With that said let's dive right into my conversation with Mark Allen. Hey, mark. Welcome to the show. [00:02:01] Mark Allen: Thank you very much for having me. [00:02:03] Craig Dalton: I'm excited to dig into your story as the listener knows. I always like to start just by getting a little bit about your background. So why don't you tell us where you're from, where you're living and originally how you found the bike, and then we'll get into how you got the courage to sign up for the Unbound 100 this year. [00:02:20] Mark Allen: Yes. I grew up in Wichita, Kansas did not know hardly anything about gravel cycling at all, which is amazing when you know, Unbound is basically in the backyard of Wichita. So. About three years ago, I decided I needed to get my health in check and was probably about 60 pounds overweight struggled with some thyroid issues that created me to gain an immense amount of weight. And I went to Walmart and bought a bike that just, I just decided to go ride a bike and [00:02:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Did you just get tipped off that cycling was a good activity, easy on the joints and [00:03:02] Mark Allen: I read yes, easy on the joints trying to not hurt my knees any further than they've been over 53 years of using them. So I jumped on this bike. That was way too small and I wrote it and I wrote it and I wrote it. And. Started losing weight. Started fixing my nutrition started fixing the proper medicines with my doctor. I mean, you put the three together and it, I really started having great results, great health results, great mental results. I mean, it was just a, you know, all on. Little itty bitty mongoose bike that I bought in Walmart. I'm six, five and 280 pounds at that time. And I'm now six, five, and kind of bounced between two 30 and two 40. But so I'm not literal at all. [00:03:52] Craig Dalton: Was was the environment in Wichita conducive to cycling? Was it, were you seeing people out there on the roads that made you say like, oh, like I see people are really passionate about this sport. [00:04:03] Mark Allen: Oh, say it all the time. It's amazing amount. You know, we don't have the greatest cycling infrastructure for the level of cycling that gets done in Wichita. Really surprised at that, but the amount of people that are. Riding bikes. I mean, everything from recreational bikes to folks on road and folks on gravel is amazing. So the, it is very popular here. It's very popular here and and. It's again, it's just amazing to see the amount of people doing it and really the amount of people not doing it. And I've been really spreading the wor word on cycling, trying to get other folks you know, involved in it because I've, I had such great benefits from it. I [00:04:46] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, a couple things I wanna drill into there, but, but first off, you know, cycling, I think can be a, a cost prohibitive sport. It can be kind of confusing and intimidating. You just jumped right in and got, got yourself a bike and started riding. Were you riding just on the, the streets and trails of Wichita at that, at that first instance? [00:05:06] Mark Allen: get up every morning, about 4:00 AM and I would ride through my neighborhood and then I would go outta my neighborhood. Down to an intersection across the street up all the way down to the next inter street intersection, cross the street and come back through the neighborhood. And I kept doing laps very early in the morning. I was a little self-conscious. I was very didn't want any traffic. Didn't just, just needed to ride at my pace. And, and. Just build upon, build upon that. So, didn't venture far, just a lot of repetitive lap [00:05:40] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, it's great that you sort of knew that about yourself and said that like you just need to get started and everything else that we'll talk about that came from that start started with you just being willing to get up early and ride around the block a few times. [00:05:54] Mark Allen: is absolutely correct. [00:05:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask you about that you mentioned, obviously you started to see some health benefits. I think anybody movement is just so important for all of us and you, it was clear, you were gonna see some health benefits right away, but you also mentioned, you know, you felt mental benefits from riding a bike. So I'd love to just kind of hear a little bit about your thoughts about that and the benefits you were getting for just getting out there and riding. [00:06:20] Mark Allen: Solitude it it's, it's amazing. Just writing by myself and having time to just think I own my own business. I have 30 some employees. I have, I'm married, have seven children. I have five children that are out the house now. And two home. Very demanding. So, a lot of responsibility, a lot of working with a lot of people and just finding time for myself, just tiny, you know, sorting things out in my head and trying to find, you know, self care time to really meditate on things. Think about things, talk to yourself you know, just even positive feedback from yourself. You know, if I set a goal for the day and I accomplish it, That feeling was phenomenal. I mean, it was it just, and it was, there were little goals, you know, there were little goals at first three laps, four laps, five laps, you know, and that self feedback loop of wow, I did it was, was immense. So I get up in the morning. I do these rides. I set my daily goals. I meet my daily goals and my entire day. Starts out different. I'm not waking up with the, the weight of the world of my family or my work on my shoulders. I'm waking up and accomplishing a goal immediately. And it just sets the tone from the day, from there on out, just absolutely sets the tone. [00:07:43] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I completely agree with you. I got out this morning for an hour before anybody was at the breakfast table, got home. And honestly, anything I achieved throughout the rest of the day is, is inconsequential because I've really, I've spent that time with myself. I got a little bit of exercise in and just enjoyed, you know, the environment that I'm able to ride. [00:08:03] Mark Allen: Yes. And, and I want everybody to understand. It's just little things, right? It's little things, just getting out and doing little things to begin with. And, and, you know, my story has this. Incredible ending which is another beginning, which I'm sure we'll talk about soon, but it's just little things. I mean, it's a lap around your street. It's that simple of a, a start, you know, the, the start's the hard part. But it, it isn't you know, it isn't hours at a time, which, you know, is just a little bit, so, you know, I tell everybody don't be afraid, just start, you know, pick something easy and go. Yeah. And, and it's amazing how the rest of the day just comes together. [00:08:43] Craig Dalton: Yeah. So tell me about, so, you know, you're running laps in the neighborhood and you're building up your mileage. Was there a certain point where something clicked and you said, well, gosh, maybe I should set a target. Maybe I should try to ride. 15 miles or 20 miles. And it kind of got you a little bit outta that neighborhood routine and made you [00:09:00] Mark Allen: I started reading about single track and I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. And watched some videos. And I went and bought a specialized doubled XL rock hopper. It's a huge bike, which fit me, which was great. So that's really the first bike that. Fit me to where, you know, I wasn't scrunched up. I wasn't hurting or anything like that. And I left I Prairie, sunset trail is about five miles from my house. It's a trail that runs about 20 miles on the west side of Wichita. And I left I left the, the confines of my neighborhood and I rode that trail. It's flat. It has, it has no elevation on it at all. So it's just flat and you'll find everybody, people walking, walking their dogs, you know, riding gravel, cyclists. I mean, everybody's on that trail. And so I was first able to overcome. People seeing me on a bike. I finally had a bike that fit me, so it didn't look terribly crazy. And I started riding that trail and you know, at first, the first time I did 10 miles on that trail, I was beside myself. I was just like, this is the greatest thing ever. I did 10 miles and that's five out and five back to where I parked. So, you know, five out with a break and five back with a, you know, when I parked. And so I started doing. I did a little bit of the air cap Memorial trail, which is there too. And then I had a pretty good wreck on it as anybody that does single track. You know, I had a really good wreck. I hit a tree with my left shoulder, went over the handle bars. I'm too old. I'm too big to be going over handle bars And I was like, okay, this is, this has kind of scared me. And At that time I had met Nathan Wadsworth, who is in charge of elite training. My son had been going to him doing some personal fitness with him, and Nathan is a phenomenal gravel cyclist. So him and I had just been talking back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. And he's the one that steered me that, and the tree steered me away from single track and towards gravel cycling. [00:11:03] Craig Dalton: Okay. And were you able with, we, were you able to find gravel cycling roads out of Wichita that you could start to enjoy at that point? [00:11:11] Mark Allen: Oh, all over. They're all over. There's a 45th street is I, I would say a mile from my house and I can do a 20 mile out and back on the same street with some decent elevation with a. Boat marina at the end of the first 20 miles. So if you need to use the restroom or get something to drink, you can refill and, and head back in the gravel roads around Wichita on the west side of town are great, not a ton of elevation training wise but they are they're, they're incredible. And very rideable and they were really designed to help me, you know, learn how to ride a gravel bike. [00:11:47] Craig Dalton: Okay. And did you end up swapping the, the specialized mountain bike for a drop bar bike? Or were you still on the specialized. [00:11:54] Mark Allen: I rode that J until I could find one. My problem was, this was right pre COVID. And as COVID was hitting, every American went out and bought a bike. And and given my size there's only a few manufacturers that make a bike large enough for me anyways. So what Nathan did was steer to a, a specialized 64 carbon sport diverge. And I spent months looking for that. So I was stuck on. Rock hopper, riding gravel roads, like a gravel cyclist looking months on, in for a gravel bike that the specific 64. And I found it over the internet in North Carolina. So it was and it was at a shop that couldn't ship it to me due to specialized franchise territory rules and all that. But it was in a town that I have a friend, it was in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I called my friend and I said, Hey, they have this bike that I've been looking for for months. Could you pick it up for me and ship it to me? And, and my friend Chuck was like, absolutely. And I said, it's at all star at in quail corners, right outside of Raleigh. And he. That's the bike shop I use. And I was like, holy Mac, we we've got my bike and it's in Chuck's neighborhood and I'm gonna have this bike here in three days. And I did, it was just, it was a miracle. I mean, it was, you know, just, it was cool. It [00:13:17] Craig Dalton: That's amazing. Yeah. I'm glad you were able to get something relatively efficiently. Cause I've heard tons of stories about people trying to find a bike. And in your particular case, as you describe it, when you've only got a model or a couple models that are gonna work for you, you probably have an even li more limited opportunity to grab a hold of a gravel bike. [00:13:36] Mark Allen: Yes. Yeah. There's just not for my size. There's not, and that's something I'm hoping in the future that the gravel industry will look at, cuz there's a lot of guys, my size that would do this. If there was, I think more availability you know, of, of, of bikes, of size. [00:13:53] Craig Dalton: So you'd been riding maybe about a, a year. Did I get the timeline right? When you got that gravel bike [00:13:58] Mark Allen: Yes. It was a, it was about a year, [00:14:00] Craig Dalton: was when you first sort of stepped over the gravel bike and started riding with dropped handle bars. How did you, how did that feel? Was that a, a rough transition from a straight bar mountain bike, which is a little bit maybe easier to ride. I'd argue [00:14:15] Mark Allen: Scared me to death I had never, I mean, I had never written any written, anything. Like that. And so just the basics of trying to master a bike that is beyond your technical skill and also way beyond your physical skills. So the, the, the bike was way out ahead of my abilities and just having a thumb shifter. I mean, literally I I'd never, I'm like, I didn't know what gear I was in , you know, just trying to Technically learn how to ride the bike. It took me, it took me quite a while. I mean, it took me, I don't know, several months to finally get into the flow, get into a fill. I went through three different fits. Trying to just get very comfortable in it. So I'm, I'm writing it every day. I'm going, you know, weeks at a time I go get a fit and then I get another fit and I ride and get another fit. And finally it all starts coming together and it, it, it's not easy on gravel. It's, it's not easy at all, as we all know, but it was, it's funny trying to. Me to shift before I go up. And then how am I managed to go down properly without crashing and, and just, it was an amazing. Transformation. It just was, everybody thinks you'd jump on the bike. And yeah, I just jumped on the bike from Walmart and rode. I just absolutely rode. I got on the rock hopper and I just rode. And then all of a sudden, I'm now leaning forward and I've got gears to manage and I've got gravel to manage and all of this comes together where it takes a while before you can technically maneuver with, you know, any kind of efficiency. [00:15:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Did you, did you see some immediate performance benefits on being on that bike versus the heavier mountain bike? [00:16:02] Mark Allen: Oh, yeah. It the, the street that I would ride on EV every night had a lot of gravel cyclists on him. I could never stay up with them. I mean, I never, I couldn't even get near 'em. So, you know, we would all start out together and I'd be the one in one behind. So, yeah, it was it's, it's amazing. The difference in. Performance that you get with it. And that bike has been phenomenal. It's it's, it's amazing. When, when you get your bike working good and you have confidence in your bike. It's just, you're unbeatable and you're unbeatable in the sense of the perception you have for yourself. You know, what, what you expect out of yourself, you're, you're meeting and surpassing your, your own expectation. I'm not worried about beating this guy or beating this guy. I'm worried about my perception. You know, what should I expect out myself? And when that bike is together, it's just, it's amazing. It's amazing. [00:16:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It sounds like in those months you were really feeling yourself and feeling just kind of great about the journey you've been on. Did you go back to Nathan and talk to him? And at what point did you see this sign on the wall that said Unbound and thought about doing that? [00:17:09] Mark Allen: it is pretty funny. It actually happened before I got the gravel bike. I said, would you coach me? If I get a gravel bike, if I go get this gravel bike, will you coach me? He says, yes, he'll coach me. I said, great. And I said, well, I've been looking at this sign this map on your wall for, you know, a bunch of time. Now, every time I'm in here with my son, I said, what is this? And he says, that's the Unbound 100. And I just laughed. I said, people ride a hundred miles around Emporia and I was like in the Hills and, and I love the Flint Hills and I know the Flint Hills, like the back of my hands. And I was like, why, why would you ride those Hills? How do you get up? 'em you know? And, and And he was, you know, laughing at me and, and, and I said, okay, I'm gonna get the bike and you're gonna coach me. He says, yeah. And I just, matter of fact, Lee looked at him and I said, I'm going to finish that in three years. And I'm so happy. He didn't laugh at me. I'm so happy. He just didn't start cracking up and go. You, you know, you're naive. You don't know what you're talking about. And I said, Nathan, you'll learn. You'll learn. You know, I'm I'm, if I say, I'm gonna do it, if I believe I'm gonna do it, then it's gonna happen. And so. It, it sounds a lot easier. I'm, I'm probably making it much more simpler than what I went through, but I made a promise to myself and I made a promise to him. If he coaches me and I follow him and he helps me that I'm gonna finish finish that. And I did. And it was incredible. Incredible. [00:18:31] Craig Dalton: Amazing. So when you had sign, did you sign up sort of for you raced obviously the 20, 22 event, how long before did you know you had gotten the slot? [00:18:41] Mark Allen: Oh a couple months. It was a couple months before that. So, you know, I was, I was just worried. I'm like, why would they pick me out of, you know, Thousands and thousands of people that are doing this, I'm like, why would they pick me? What was the, you know, and, and when they did, I was, Ugh, I was ecstatic. I was like, I can keep my word in Nathan now , you know, [00:19:00] Craig Dalton: Did you go through some special process because of the journey you're on. Was there like an application for, you know, someone who's doing something bold? [00:19:08] Mark Allen: It was a long application. I mean the, the actual physical application and, and I was like, I answered all the questions and I was like, why would they pick me? I was like, I hope they're some, somewhere on the application. I could tell my story a little bit. And there was a box that says, tell us a cool cycling story. And I was like, oh, I got one, you know, old, heavy guy that needs to get better grabs a bike and rides and fast forward, he's in the Unbound, you know? So. [00:19:34] Craig Dalton: So, so you've got Nathan in your corner, obviously advising you as to what to expect when you got to the start line, what was your confidence level? Like when you arrived at the start line, is it something you knew you could do? Or is it something that you're like, I'm gonna try my best. [00:19:49] Mark Allen: I knew if I could get to Madison in which Madison is the cutoff. If you don't get to Madison by one 30 they'll stop you on the, on the ride. And so I was very confident that if I got to Madison, I could finish. If I cannot have a mechanical, if I cannot have a flat tire. If, if the bike held together, I knew I could get 64 miles in that time. And I did the 64 miles to Madison in five hours. It was the fastest I'd ever written. I, it was pure adrenaline. It was pure. It was just I man, I'm in the, I'm in this thing. Let's go now. And I was highly confident that I was I was gonna get there and I was what was looming over me was a little bit of the declines. But also I'm every mile somebody had a flat tire every mile. It was just flat tire after flat tire after flat tire. And I was like, please, no, please. No, so. [00:20:48] Craig Dalton: Going back to the start line. I mean, what did you feel like you're surrounded by a thousand people or what, whatever the number was starting, the Unbound 100. Were you intimidated? I'm assuming you hadn't done a lot of group riding to that scale? I. [00:21:02] Mark Allen: Not to that scale. I had done a two years worth of rides, two years worth of rides. But nothing ever to that scale I was in awe. I was just awe struck. I just kept looking around at all these people. Feeling that I didn't believe belong there still that I was like, how in the heck am I in this thing? I was just like, wow, this is awesome. And I was ready to go. It was about the best way to say it. I'm not, I, I was just, let's go. I'm I've worked three years for this. Let's go. But still didn't believe I belonged. There still didn't believe that I was in the middle of this. It was very surreal left the start line and couldn't quit smiling. Through Emporia. [00:21:43] Craig Dalton: Yeah. You know, I think for anybody who hasn't done an event, there is an electricity you feel at the start line. And that can go a long way. I mean, if you're leaning in and really enjoying that experience, like the miles just sort of fall behind you because you're, you're part of this thing. That's bigger than yourself. [00:22:00] Mark Allen: Yeah. And that's absolutely, that's absolutely what it was. It was just. It, it's hard to put in words, the experience of starting it was wow. I mean, two to three minutes to get people out of the, across the finish or the start line. I , it was cool. [00:22:20] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's always the funny thing you hear the, the cannon go off and then you look around and no one around you is moving for a few minutes. [00:22:28] Mark Allen: Yeah. Yep. [00:22:29] Craig Dalton: When, when you're rolling out in those, you know, say the first 25 miles, when I assume that that the pack is still pretty thick, was that challenging for you to kind of be around all those riders? [00:22:39] Mark Allen: Yes, because it would. I usually end up in the middle of a race and at a start of a race of a, you know, the smaller races that I do. I mean, peop their separation happens very quickly. So you have the, the first 25% they get gone, they get outta everybody's way. And then you have me the 20 to 75% fall in that line, you know, we're we talk, , you know, we draft, we ride, we enjoy ourselves and we all have our goals for the day and we're trying to achieve our goals. That's not a big pack. And a lot of the time I end up solo, I just end up solo on these races. So, being, I had to be much more aware of what was going on around me. I had to understand If the person in front of me is struggling a little bit it, it is just a lot more, lot more going on. Your head had to be in it more than I've ever experienced before. So two there's tons of stuff going on. [00:23:34] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. And I think, you know, oftentimes you're, you're pushed into a line that maybe you wouldn't have selected if you were out there on your own. And I imagine that's where a lot of the flat tires happen because people just get forced into riding through a little bit more Rocky section. They, then they would've selected. But when there's a dozen people around you, you can't just go swerving, picking the best. [00:23:54] Mark Allen: Yeah there abso absolutely what happened. There was a lot of people that went through areas that they probably normally wouldn't gone through. One of the things that I noticed was yes, people were riding over Flint rock. That I was like, don't do that. I was like, do not ride over that Flint rock. And there were scenarios where they were stuck and, and at any point in time we were all stuck. I was stuck on one climb. Where the person in front of me was slowed down to the point where I had to come outta my come outta my pedals to keep my balance because they just they're and I couldn't go right. And I couldn't go left. And I, if I kept going, I was gonna hit them. And, and so it puts you in positions that you've never. Been in experience that you've ever been in before. And so you've gotta figure it out on the fly and, and that's probably the first 25 miles. My biggest handicap in that first 25 miles is I was like, now, what do I do? I, you know, usually I can just swing right. Swing left. I could stop. I could go. I could, I had so much more freedom in my other races. This one you were sometimes just stuck. I mean, you were just stuck with what you were. [00:24:58] Craig Dalton: Yep. Yeah. And I think having the patience, cuz oftentimes when you're impatient, you make a bad decision. Like, oh, I think I can float over those Flint rocks and that's never gonna end well for you. [00:25:08] Mark Allen: Yeah. And a lot of people did. And I was like you know, Nathan kept telling me your native knowledge of writing all these roads or is gonna pay off. And after a while I was like, stop writing over that folks. I was telling people don't do that. Come here. [00:25:20] Craig Dalton: Local knowledge. I love it. One of the other things, you know, in talking to a bunch of people who have participated in Unbound this year was, was the mud. And I've spoken more towards people who were doing the 200. And I know the professional athletes given their pace, experienced something different than the mid pack athletes did along the way. Did the mud come into play in the hunter mile race for. [00:25:43] Mark Allen: Oh, it did. There was, I think two miles of it was unbelievable mud. The bigger, the bigger. Issue was the thunderstorm previous to that. So I'm gonna answer your question about the mud, but I definitely wanna talk about the thunderstorm because that was unbelievable. Yet I had been in one other race on the Flint Hills gravel ride, where they had about two miles of mud and it was. Probably the second race I'd ever been in. And of course I ride into it and my bike becomes stuck. I become stuck. I'm completely coated in mud. My bike's coated in mud and, and then it dawns on me and I was like, oh, that paint stick that that guy had in his Jersey. That's what this is for because I was like, why does this guy have a paint stick? Why does he have a paint stick? And I'm like, now I know why. So, I was able to get out of the mud and. Worked my way through the mud. And, and it really hurt my time because I spent, I don't know how much time trying to get the mud off my bike with my fingers and tearing blue stem grass out of the Prairie to, and using that of sticks. And so, not a lot of experience, but I knew better to then to ride into it. So when I got to the mud, I stopped and I watched what everybody was doing. I was just looking to see. Who was writing, who was not writing, where were they walking? And I was like, a lot of people were walking out of the road in the grass and that's to me a Nono because you now have mud and you now have grass and it just will continue to build up. And I started watching where the water was running down the street or down the road in the minimum maintenance road. And if water is running downhill, it's running on the Flint rocks. And so you're not in the mud and. A great thing. Being as big as me is that I could pick a carbon fiber bike up with one hand, like it's nothing. And I literally picked it up and I put it on my helmet. I literally straddled my bike on my helmet. I found where the water was running down the road where it's just Flint rock. And I walked it and I walked that two miles with the bike on with my bike on my helmet and my holding it in my right arm and using my left arm to keep my balance. While a lot of people were walking in the mud and trying to ride the bike in the. Ruts. And, and so what I was very, I was tired. I mean, I was absolutely tired carrying a bike two miles, but when it was time to get out of that, I set my bike down and I looked up my cleats and I kind of clicked my cleats a couple times and jumped on my bike and was gone. So, again, some of the native, native knowledge of what to do in mud helped but it was, it was It slowed me down. I mean, my first 64, my first 64 miles were five hours. My next 40 miles were four hours. So, the mud really put a damper on I wanted to finish in eight hours and I finished in nine and, and I would, the mud did definitely contributed to that. [00:28:32] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's such a shame when you've got an ambitious goal to have forward progress halted in the way that that two miles of mud did for y'all. Yeah. [00:28:40] Mark Allen: It did it did, but it's part, it is part of it. It's it's awesome. It's just part of it, you know, [00:28:46] Craig Dalton: Yeah. You, yeah. 20, 22 is just gonna be another one of these kind of unique adventures that Unbound offers riders. [00:28:54] Mark Allen: yes. [00:28:55] Craig Dalton: So tell me about that thunderstorm. [00:28:57] Mark Allen: I had been watching the weather all week and I was like, wow, I think we're gonna get outta this thing without, without rain. And as we were approaching Madison, as I knew I was gonna make it to Madison, I was just so happy. I was just like, man, I'm going, I now know I'm gonna finish this thing. And then it started raining. I'd have to say five miles out of Madison, four or five miles out of Madison and really raining. And then it turned into a full on. Kansas thunderstorm where the rain comes from all directions. I'm not just not down. I'm saying from the east, the north, the west, the south it was coming from all directions and my glasses are fogging up. The rain's dripping from my helmet into the back of my glasses. So it's rolling right into my eyes. The roads aren't bad going into Madison, they've been pretty dry and they're still not bad going into Madison, but by the time we hit Madison, it. Madison was soaked. The roads had a couple feet of water you know, where the, the goalies were going across road and it was pouring. I mean, it was all my nutrition and my saddle bag was soaked. So like my my, my peanut butter my Uncrustables, I love reading Uncrustables when I ride and, and my. all that was just soaked. So I had water log nutrition. In my kit, I had, you know, the goose and the, the honey stingers and all that stuff in my kit, but everything was soaked. I mean, just absolutely soaked. And I was hoping it would pass over pretty quickly and it did not pass over. I think for the next 20 miles outta ma outta Madison, it was raining in some function. I mean, you come outta Madison little bit of a ride. You get into the mud. The mud is even worse than what was probably planned because of the thunderstorm you get out of the mud. And you're still just absolutely inundated by this thunderstorm. So my back 40 was affected by the mud. But I think it was more affected by the thunderstorm, just due to the fact of it was just never, you can't train for that. You just never write in anything like that. So it was a. [00:30:58] Craig Dalton: It's just like 15% harder than you imagined all of a sudden. How did you, how was your, how was your spirit after Madison? I mean, you're, you're going slow. You're getting hammered by the rain. Are you still thinking like I got this or did, did, did doubt start to creep in. [00:31:12] Mark Allen: I got outta Madison. Well, as I was coming into Madison, I, my left calf, the front of my left calf started tightening up. It felt like it was tightening up. And I was like, okay I'm getting poured on. I've made good time. I'm happy. But then all of a sudden I've got this stinger going on below my left knee and I'm like, okay, I'll get to Madison. I'll stretch it. By the time I get to Madison, it is pouring so much. All I wanna do is switch my nutrition out, fill up my camel back and I wanna get on my bike and get out of this thing. And hopefully I can write out of this a little. Did I know I couldn't I stretched my calf for a little bit and, and so I I've got. Stinger in the front of my left calf. I've never had this before I go into the mud. I walk two miles. The Stinger's there. I get on my bike. I'm riding, I'm still getting poured poured on. Excuse me, I'm still getting poured on. And now I've cut this sore muscle to the left of my tibia basically. And I'm like, okay, this is now an issue, you know? So, Thunderstorm rain and a little bit of a stinger going on in my leg. And I'm rubbing and I'm rubbing, I'm pedaling with my right leg, you know, I'm rubbing it. Okay. And I just, all three things kind of came together and I'm like, I don't care how much this hurts. I'm finishing. I am finishing period. And I knew I was off my eight hour mark. I knew I was off that. There was no way I was gonna make it up and I just powered through it and it hurt. I mean, It hurt. I still don't know what it was. I don't know why it was but it hurt. So those three things together kind of, is there doubts? Yeah, there was doubts. There was like, why now? , you know why now? But I just made my mind up. I was like, I, this is, I've done this way too long. To deal with this. And, and I just powered my way through it, you know, and I there's a lot of people that said, Hey, hop on, hop on, you know, you know, come with us. And I was just like, Hey, I'm doing this at my pace. I'm, I'm a little bit hurt right now. And I'm just gonna keep going. And so put those three, the weather together, and with a little bit of an injury, I was like I still determined, but yeah, it, it bothered me. [00:33:28] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, I imagine. And so, as you, as you approach the finish line, when you're in those closing miles, what kind of thoughts were going through your head? [00:33:36] Mark Allen: Oh, man. I think when I saw the Emporia water tower, it was just exhilaration, but I was at that point it's like 90 or 95 miles out. It was exhaustion. It was, it was. And. what was great, was all the people along the entire route, cheering you, and every time you came upon somebody cheering you, that gives you a little bit of that adrenaline. And you come in Emporia and they trick you with one last climb up the backside of Emporia state that, you know, Highland road, I believe it is pretty, and it's a significant climb. It is it's a street, but it's a significant climb and you're like, oh, one more. And you come across the. you come across the campus and you come into the shoot and you're like, everybody's cheering. It's just like, like you see on TV, you know, like you, you see on all the everybody's cheering and you're just like, wow. Wow. I made it. So it's it's amazing. It's I, I had. I just amazing it was, could not believe I did it crossed the finish line and stood [00:34:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, it's phenomenal. I mean, what a journey to get there, what a journey that race given the weather provided for you that made it a little extra tough. And it was like asking the question, mark, do you really have this in you? [00:34:54] Mark Allen: Yeah. It's and I think that was a great thing back about it. Now I can look back and say I was in 2022. I was in the thunderstorm. I was in the mud. It's a, it was a unique setting a unique set of circumstances. I was able to overcome 'em, you know, typically when you ride in Kansas, you're always dealing with the win. And so, you're mentally prepared for win when you ride in Kansas. Just never encountered in anything in three years of thunderstorm of that magnitude everybody was safe. There was never an issue of safety. It was. A heck of a rainstorm. I mean, it made the roads outside of the mud, even, you know, not great. So, and I was eating soggy UN Uncrustables so it was, that was not great either. so, so. [00:35:43] Craig Dalton: amazing. Well, this is great. I mean, I really enjoyed learning about your journey to the start line and even more excited to hear the journey to the finish line. Cause I, I do think it's a huge accomplishment and I'm always super stoked to meet people who set a big challenge for themselves and realize like, it really is just about continuing to turn the pedals. And if you. Belief in yourself and you put a little time into your training and energy. Many of us are capable of much more than we think we are. [00:36:11] Mark Allen: I, I completely agree. Where I was, was a successful entrepreneur, had an in, you know, incredible home life kind of looking at now what, you know, what what's next, you know, kids are moving out. Again, like I said, a little bit of medical issues trying to deal with those and, and it was cool finding my inner self, finding my true identity, finding you know, A lot about myself, even at 53 to be able to go, yeah, I still can do things. I still, you know, I'm more than just a husband. I'm more than just an entrepreneur. I'm mark, you know, and trying to understand who mark is and what mark is capable of. And it was, that was really the big journey and you know, the bike was the, the instrument along the way. So it was, it, it was really cool. [00:36:57] Craig Dalton: I love it. Will the bike continue to be part of your life? [00:37:01] Mark Allen: Oh yes. It's It absolutely is I've, I've taken about two weeks off and my body needed it. My brain needed it. I'm getting ready to get back on it again. Nathan has talked me into doing the 78 mile gravel worlds. So in August so, I'm going to attempt that next. But how in the future competitive wise, we'll see, I'll continue to do some races. The big thing is for me, is continuing getting on the bike, you know, you know, three, four times a week getting on the bike and riding because it's such a. It's great medicine, riding a bike is great medicine and that's really why I started. And I'm gonna con definitely continue with my medicine, which is riding a bike. And then we'll see, it takes me from there, you know, bike across Kansas interests me, which is going on right now. That interests me gravel worlds interest me. So, we'll see. But what I do know, I am getting on the bike pretty much every day because it is medicine. It's true. [00:38:01] Craig Dalton: I love it. And that's a great place to us for us, for us to end bikes, our medicine, mark. Thanks again for the time. Truly appreciate it. And congrats again on your journey. [00:38:11] Mark Allen: Thank you very much. [00:38:12] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Mark Allen for sharing his story and huge congratulations to them. I think everybody listening can understand that was quite a journey. And it's quite a feat for anyone finishing one of these hundred mile plus. Gravel events. So kudos to mark. And thanks for the time. Thank you also to bike index for supporting the show. Remember go visit bike index.org to register your bike with this nonprofit, all their services are free. So there's no reason other than your time. To not jump on over there and register your bike. If you're able to support the show. Please visit, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Separately ratings and reviews are hugely helpful. So very much appreciate anybody takes a moment out of their day to share their thoughts on the show. That's going to do it until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.