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Play Episode Listen Later Jan 16, 2024 35:45

Billy Sinkford, Vice President of Echos Communications, discusses the genesis of the MADE show and its impact on the handmade bike community. He shares his experience as a former bike messenger and how it led him to work in the urban cycling industry. Billy also highlights the importance of brand representation and storytelling in the cycling industry. He provides insights into the success of the first MADE show and gives a preview of what to expect in the upcoming shows in Portland and Melbourne. Don't miss this exciting conversation about the future of the handmade bike community. Episode Sponsor: AG1 MADE Bicycle Show Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. [00:00:29] Craig Dalton (host): This week on the show. I welcome Billy. Sinford from the maid bicycle show in Portland, Oregon. You may recall if you're a listener from last year that I attended the show. In 2023 and had dozens of interviews with fantastic frame builders from around the country. I super enjoyed the show, the experience, the overall vibe of the show. So I was thrilled to get some communication from echos communications that the show is on. Again for 2024, I wanted to get a little bit of the backstory and inspiration for the show. And learn some secrets about the upcoming show in 2024. Little did I know at the end of this episode, I was going to learn about yet another exciting new development. I'll leave you with that. And we'll wait till the end, until we find out that secret from Billy. But before we get started, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor a G one. Taking care of your health. Isn't always easy, but it should at least be simple. That's why for me, for the last decade, I've been drinking age one every day, no exceptions. It's just one scoop mixed in water once a day, every day. And it makes me feel energized and ready to take on the day. That's because each serving of AIG one delivers my daily dose of vitamins minerals and pre and probiotics and more, it's a powerful, healthy habit that also is powerfully simple. Okay, let me go back a decade and explain why. became an essential part of my daily routine. I come to recognize that nutritionally, I just wasn't covering my bases with my diets. 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Exclusively at drink, AIG one.com/the gravel ride. That's drink AIG one.com/the gravel ride to check it out today. Without behind us, let's jump right into my conversation with Billy. [00:03:24] Craig Dalton (host): Billy, welcome to the show. [00:03:25] Billy Sinkford: Thank you for having me, Craig. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:03:29] Craig Dalton (host): I know it's a busy week for you guys at MADE, so I appreciate you making the time and I'm excited to kind of just talk about the show. I did a bunch of episodes and Certainly had a bunch of conversations with frame builders during my visit to made in 2023. So I'm excited to just talk about the plans for 2024, but to set the stage for the conversation, we always like to kind of roll back a little bit and just understand, how did you develop a passion for the bike? Did you grow up riding? So why don't you start off by just letting us know where you grew up and how you discovered the bike and how that journey ultimately took you to kind of being in the industry as a professional. [00:04:10] Billy Sinkford: Well, first off, thanks for coming to MAID in 2023. It was awesome to have you and love the videos that you put out surrounding it. And we're stoked for 2024. We'll get, we'll get there though. I was a bike messenger in Boston in the late 90s and early 2000s. Uh, that was my first job working on the bike, uh, all day, uh, rain or snow, uh, in Boston, and did that, uh, for quite some time. Eventually ended up moving to San Francisco, uh, where I also was a, a bike messenger after a brief stint, uh, in divinity school, uh, which I decided was not, not for me. And from there, I started working with chrome industries and started working in kind of the urban cycling field of things. And, you know, for lack of a better term, I weaseled and worked my way into a job at chrome and. Um, my, the director of marketing at Chrome, Rob Reedy, who is my business partner at Echos. He's the CEO of Echos and I'm the VP, uh, gave me a chance and gave me a job and we worked together for years over at Chrome and eventually, uh, founded Echos Communications, which is a PR and marketing firm for, Active outdoors, uh, with a huge focus on cycling and I am fortunate enough to be the vice president of that and manage, uh, manage our cycling stuff that echoes communications. So that, that's [00:05:47] Craig Dalton (host): how I got there. I'm curious if, if you go back to those days as a courier, my experience with the courier community there, there were certainly some couriers who were bike racers, bike lovers, lovers of all things, bikes, and they discovered curry being a courier as a vocation that allowed them to, you know, work on their bike and stay fit. I've also heard from many of those same. Bike racer couriers that it's a horrible way to train because it's so hard on your body. So I'm just curious, were you, you know, part of that courier culture and the bike was a work mechanism and you fell in love with that, you know, the fixie kind of culture, or was there another thread of your passion for the bike that was mountain biking or road racing at the time? [00:06:35] Billy Sinkford: When I was in Boston, it was definitely about the culture and community, and the bike was just the tool that allowed for all of that to happen. When I moved out to San Francisco, the company that I worked for, Godspeed Courier, we had a race team. I was partially in charge of all the sponsorships and helped out a lot of the company. Definitely, uh, started wearing spandex and shaving our legs and going and doing local crits. And at that time road races, it was all road, uh, for me back then in the San Francisco Bay area and competed at all kinds of road races, uh, underneath the Godspeed courier banner. But I was, uh, I was a heavy dude. I still am a, I'm a big guy and I never, uh, I went out and just. Beat the crap out of everybody for the first 20 miles and then basically did an 80 mile bike ride by myself after the rest of the race, but I absolutely loved it. And it was a different kind of community and that definitely carried over. And, you know, I certainly by no means of. Kept up with it or pinned a number in a long time. I did last year for a minute, but, uh, definitely still enjoy being sometimes at the pointy end of the spear. Um, but yeah, messengering definitely brought me into that race culture. And then that carried over into my time in the industry, without a doubt. [00:07:55] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, obviously like Chrome had its parts of his origin from that culture and that vibe, that commuter, worker, the, you know, the well constructed bags and later the shoes and clothing that they brought into the mix as you kind of represented them and were kind of earning your chops on the business side of the bike industry. What were you learning in that time that you kind of took forward about how brands need to be represented to cyclists in order to grow and be relevant? [00:08:28] Billy Sinkford: Working in the urban cycling side of things first was, was really interesting and I think it relates to stuff in the handmade market. I think it relates to cycling as a whole because we, and sometimes think of ourselves as this huge entity, right? In reality, cycling is a niche sport and a niche hobby. Uh, so looking at it through that lens and then knowing that urban cycling was a niche within. That niche, uh, we called it don't Timbuktu it back in the day Timbuktu started stopping selling messenger bags and started selling travel luggage and briefcases for a, for a brief minute. And at Chrome, we just made sure we didn't Timbuktu it. And we were trying to stay. With the core sponsoring messenger races, making sure that we're not only sponsored them, but we're actively present at the races and engaging with the community and bringing a cool vibe and having a good time. And that I think has carried over into everything that we've done at echoes and hopefully what we've brought to, uh, the cycling community at large. And that's the present. Be there and and be a part of the community. [00:09:42] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think there's so much to obviously the storytelling of these brands that is so critical and how they resonate with fans and consumers of these products [00:09:55] Billy Sinkford: and it's really easy to lose it quite quickly. So, you know, having a good mission statement, understanding what your brand is, and actually standing by that and standing behind it, standing behind the community that you're, you're making products for, and hopefully. An active part of that community. Do those, you're, you're going to be on the side of right. Yeah, you [00:10:17] Craig Dalton (host): mentioned some of the work you do at echoes and just to set the stage for when we later talk about the maid show. Can you talk about some of the clients you've had the privilege of working with over the years? And then we'll get into what was the genesis behind the idea for [00:10:34] Billy Sinkford: made? Sure. We have had the privilege and pleasure and honest. I'd say honor of working with a lot of really amazing brands and folks within those brands. We started definitely on the urban cycling tip, but with that, we also, you know, feedback sports and, and mission workshop where our two first clients as an agency. Uh, we launched and ran the Levi's Commuter Program, uh, for the first three years of doing that and did all of the global or national events rather, uh, bike shops and community building stuff around that. And that was super fun and and rad to, to work along the Levi's, uh, Levi's crew and their team. Blackburn. Uh, we've worked with Greg Lamond. Uh, currently we've got an awesome, I guess, what's most relevant to the handmade community. Mosaic cycles, Argonaut cycles, Lowe, uh, we're currently, uh, and have been for quite some time working with Moots, Paul Components, Paul's a dear friend of mine, and we worked with him for several years, Abby Bike Tools, so everything, uh, we brought together. Bosch to market here in the United States a couple months before Shimano got got into the e bike game here Uh worked with a ton of e bike brands So companies large and small we are just started working with Campagnolo, uh, which is phenomenal and we're really thrilled about that we've had the pleasure of working with over 100 bike brands and i've gotten to Floyd's of Leadville and Floyd Landis, dear friend, and we managed all of the, uh, PR and some of the marketing for all of his CBD stuff and, uh, and his Floyd's 5 cannabis as well. So, gotten to work alongside people that I idolized when I was a messenger and had them become not only business associates, but folks that I call friends. Um, so it's been, it's been a wild journey and, uh, and we're still, we're still, I think, just getting started. [00:12:36] Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. We were talking a little bit offline about the North American Handmade Bike Show, and it sounds like you've had a relationship, understandably so, with the brands you tended to represent with that show for, for many years. Can you just talk about kind of your memories of that show and the place it kind of held in the industry [00:12:56] Billy Sinkford: for you? Oh, I loved nabs. Absolutely loved it. Uh, used to go just as a, you know, marketing and PR guy for the brands that we worked with. Uh, so always had 5 or 6 builders or brands, uh, on the show floor that we were working with. Uh, we did, uh, for a brief period of time for a little under 2 years, actually manage all the PR for the show itself when it was in Salt Lake City. Uh, obviously the show is not around anymore and, uh, Don and I. I've had a tumultuous relationship throughout the last, uh, 15 years for sure. Um, but. What Don did on the North American Handmade Bike Show, I think was phenomenal for the builder community and nothing that we're doing, I think, would be possible without the groundwork that went into that. Both from Don, so kudos to him, and then also the builder community for showing up and being present. You know, being willing to put their energy and effort into something that has turned out to be really, really great or for the builder community. So I think the show was great. It was sad to see it go, but it also gave us the opportunity to start made, which is something that 10. I mean, it's been 10 years plus, since we've been kind of talking about potentially. Helping put together a different version of a handmade bike show, a more modern version of it. And with Navs no longer taking place, the builder community asked us if we would step up to the plate and make it happen. We were fortunate enough to be able to. To, to do that, so it's been, it's been pretty cool. [00:14:39] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, you know, obviously, like, with NABS going away, there was this pent up demand and enthusiasm for the builders to get together. To your point, NABS was just such a great gathering of such a diverse group of artisan frame builders that was so different than any other bicycle show that was around at the time. When you started to see, like, NABS is not there. We are seeing this opportunity. We're going to take this mantle. It seems like it would be a daunting challenge to go from that idea to actually producing made. What was the decision making process? What did that look like for you? Or did you ask yourself what? If we can just get 20 brands to commit early, I feel like there's enough momentum that we can do this. I'm just curious to get into your, your mind and your colleagues minds about when was the go, no go decision and what was that process like? [00:15:38] Billy Sinkford: Well, COVID, we had wanted to do this before COVID. Luckily, we did not pull the trigger on, uh, any form of trade show prior to that, because that would have definitely changed things. Uh, You know, nobody could travel. Nobody would have been able to show up. Uh, the community support, uh, my partner, Rob and I, uh, spoke to a bunch of builders, spoke to a bunch of brands, uh, brands that support the builder community. So Chris Kang specifically being 1 of them who we also we do, uh, manage their PR and everybody. One after one, people said, yes, please do this. And yes, we'll help support it. And there weren't any nose and we just kept hearing. Yes. So we started looking at it from a logistic standpoint and realize that that we could pull this off and that it could be awesome. Originally, it was supposed to be entirely outside because of the pandemic. And we didn't know. What that was going to look like and we kind of wanted to safeguard the show and there's a very, very brief window in Portland where the weather is fantastic. Uh, and we, we've got it right now or made it was. Wildly unseasonably hot during the, uh, the first year of the show, but, uh, the venue that we found is phenomenal, uh, and old abandoned shipyard, uh, I mean, you, you saw it yourself. It's, it's perfect for the handmade, uh, market probably wouldn't work for. A bike show where track and specialized and giant wanted to show up and do their things. But for those that are actually working with their hands and, you know, making metal more metal, uh, super cool environment, uh, for them to be in and the venue lined up and after that, you know, that's it. I won't say that all the pieces magically fell together. There was a lot of hard work from the entire team that made behind the scenes, but, uh, it came together and it, you know, hard work and then the support of the builder community, uh, really brought it all together and year one was fantastic. I mean, I know you didn't get to go for the consumer days, but we very purposefully had time so that you were able to be there and spend time creating content and talking with builders and the. The builder community hadn't been together in, in years because of the pandemic and the lack of nabs even before that. So we carved out a little bit of extra time for that and that was super fun and got to take 200 builders, media and industry people and my favorite ride through Forest Park, uh, which was phenomenal. So it wasn't just a show itself. I think it was the entire experience of being in Portland together and it was really cool. [00:18:25] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, absolutely. We got the food trucks in the back parking lot. Everything was just a lot of fun and I totally agree. It was, you know, nobody had to feel awkward about the style of booth they created or what they were bringing because it wasn't this super polished, super dome of convention centers or anything like that that we saw at Interbike. It was really, it felt very native to the handmade bicycle community for [00:18:51] Billy Sinkford: sure. And I think this year, you know, a lot of the, I would say 90 percent of the exhibitors, you know, we made a few videos, we, folks understood what they were walking into, to an extent. But it's one thing to see it online and read about it. It's another thing to actually be in the venue. And now, most of the exhibitors are coming back for, for year two, and they all know what things look like. So I think it'll be really cool to see how people take the space. And make their little, their portion of it their own and work with it. So, I think year one was rad and there were some folks that had some killer, killer booth designs that you would never, ever in your wildest dreams see at Eurobike or Interbike or Sea Otter. Um, and I think it worked out great that we weren't entirely outside because looking at some Consumer facing shows, which are all awesome, but it's a sea of 10 by 10 and 10 by 20 pop up tents, and we encourage people to bring tents so they've got their branding, but some of the cooler booths were, you know, handmade from wood that people brought with them, and it was super neat to see not only the folks showing, It's amazing work that they're doing, uh, but then also, you know, building a booth out that reflects that was, was [00:20:04] Craig Dalton (host): really unique. A hundred percent. It's just sort of, you know, everybody in the handmade community is so creative and just to allow them to have that freedom to develop their own displays. Super cool to see. And super fun for me to see some of the frame builders that I hadn't seen in a while, but also like a whole, probably 30 percent of them I'd never heard of before. And it was just great. Having that opportunity to get their point of view to see their manufacturing techniques to see how, you know, they're taking, you know, in the instance of maybe frameworks taking aerospace tooling and machines that aren't always available to other artisans and using that because they have access to it to create just kind of a unique. Process for creating a bike. Super fascinating to talk to guys like that. There [00:20:53] Billy Sinkford: were, I have been, because we've been extremely deep and the handmade community for a long time, and I'm fortunate to call a lot of these folks, my friends, and prior to putting on made, I really thought that I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on in the handmade community and who was who. And one of the biggest things that we did with the show was offering subsidized space. Making sure that bike flights was helping with discounted shipping, uh, there was not like a large host hotel that people felt they needed to stay at. So the show became really accessible and a lot of the younger builders and builders that did not show up at nabs came and exhibited, uh, made. Also, some of the, the legends, my generation, not, not to totally date myself, but they're not spring chickens anymore. And some of them are hanging up the torch, uh, and, or don't want to stand on their feet for, for three days. Um, they've, they've passed that. So having a lot of the younger builders and new builders at the show and not having the new builder row be In the absolute back of the hall, like it was at NABs, I made sure we were dispersing, you know. That you, a new builder was directly next to an established builder, and unless you're super deep in the industry, there was no way to tell the difference. You walked up to pretty much anybody exhibiting, and you were there to hear their story and not, uh, I don't know. It was really, it was cool. And I had to not, I did not spend a lot of time looking at the bikes during the show, which was really, really hard. I love taking photographs. I spent a lot of time. Documenting bikes in my free time, and I purposefully didn't bring a camera to the show and tried not to ogle the work during the show. Late, late at night after everybody had gone home, that's when I did it. But, uh, it was just phenomenal craftsmanship throughout the entire haul. It was awesome. [00:23:04] Craig Dalton (host): I was there for obviously the media day and partway into the, the consumer day started, I think, around noon on the Friday and I was there till about two. So I just started to get the first wave of consumers. What was that like, you know, midday Saturday or whenever peak traffic was, if you were there as a consumer, [00:23:25] Billy Sinkford: there were a couple of minutes where we were, we were pushing the limits of what that all could do for sure. Uh, we have far more people than we expected. Uh, It was awesome. I mean, just so full, uh, unfortunately, extremely hot, and we had fans running like crazy and, uh, ran out to get every little bit of water that we could. Unfortunately, there were forest fires, uh, in other parts of Oregon and Washington, and all the water trucks and everything that we had kind of helped get together was unavailable. Um, but we made it work. Uh, there were A couple thousand consumers in that hall on Saturday. We had over 5, 000 people come through between when it opened to the public on Friday and when we closed the doors for tear down, uh, on Sunday. So for year one, that was unbelievable, but the energy was super high and people were there. They were talking with builders, looking at bikes. Uh, it was, it was really cool to watch. It was fun to have a quiet moment where. Media industry folks, we all got to kind of hug and high five and, and then it was when we opened the gates on Friday, it was, uh, it's a whole, whole nother, it was almost two shows in one, [00:24:39] Craig Dalton (host): quite frankly. Yeah, certainly a three day grind for those builders to. Talk to everybody and keep their energy high. [00:24:49] Billy Sinkford: And we're, we're actually changing the format of the show this year. So we had a full day and a half that was for media and industry to kind of catch up and we did a poll of all the builders and brands after the show, and it was honestly split about 50 50 as to whether or not people wanted that extra time. Or we would do just a half day of media hours before we opened to the public. For the second year of the show, we're going to. Give it a shot the other way and do, uh, Friday morning will be just media and industry and then again, we'll open to the public and do Saturday and Sunday, but that will make the show shorter and for a lot of these builders, regardless of what size or scale operation they are every day that they're not. At the shop, that's a bike that's not going out to the customer, and this is not a large frame, a large bicycle company, for that matter, where it's happening, no matter whether the director of marketing is on the floor, like you're there talking to the builder, and that person is not making a frame for a customer, so we're trying to be cognizant. Excuse me, cognizant of that and do everything that we're going to do, but keep it a little bit shorter so that they can get back to the shop and make sure that they're doing what they need to do for their customers. [00:26:06] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Do you have a sense on the consumer side in terms of where people were traveling in from if they were obviously Portland's host to such a great community? I'm sure there was tons of Portland locals who could drive in and enjoy the show. It was a first year show, but did you get a sense that people were flying in to [00:26:24] Billy Sinkford: experience this? From the moment we announced that we had folks from all over the world that said that they were coming. There were people from Japan, Australia, uh, Europe coming from all over a lot of folks from the East Coast. I think. California, Portland, I mean, we're dominant without a doubt because it's very easy for them to travel or much easier for them to travel to the show. But some of the first emails that we got after announcing the show were from fans of custom bikes and people that own custom bikes that wanted to come and they were going to make this their vacation from Japan, Australia. And it was. Really rad to have this be a global show, not only reflected in the builders that were there because we also had builders from all over the world. This was not just Portland and California builders. We had folks from the east coast and uh, from all over the place. And this year for 2024, uh, the roster of builders and brands that are attending reflects that even more deeply. Folks all coming back and then new folks coming from Australia and we've got folks coming from the west or east coast rather, that came in. Kind of peep the show a little bit to make sure that it was something that they wanted to come to and now, uh, now they're, they're coming out for year two and, and are going to be part of the show. [00:27:42] Craig Dalton (host): That's a good segue into anything you'd want to highlight for year two. Any changes? Are there going to be more, more booths, more people? What, what can we expect in 2024? [00:27:53] Billy Sinkford: Uh, more explosions, more people, hopefully no explosions. Uh, uh, I think we've got certainly more builders, more brands. We had to extend the floor plan. So there's going to be an outdoor area as well as the indoor area this year. More food carts, more coffee. We'll still have the beer garden over there. And we're going to make sure to pop a little shade on top of that so that people can sit out there, even if it is a little bit hot. Uh, but I think there just are gonna be a variety of builders from even farther, uh, across the world. And I'm, the coolest thing that I've seen is we made it a big point to have subsidized space and to invite builders from all over the place and to make sure that if they needed help financially. That we could still have them at the show. We wanted to make sure that the builder community was represented as a whole. And there are builders that showed up and took those subsidized spaces that are now getting 10 by 20s at the show. Uh, that are saying that it was so amazing that they want to come back and have an even larger presence. So that to me was the coolest part is the show and the model works there. You know. That, that really warmed my heart quite a bit to see that happen in several instances. [00:29:12] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that says a lot. Tell us the dates of the Portland, Oregon show and where people can find out more information about it. [00:29:20] Billy Sinkford: Uh, yeah. Made. bike is our website. You don't need a dot com. We've got dot bike. So just made. bike and we will. Uh, make a lot of noise when we start selling, uh, consumer facing tickets for the show. Uh, the floor plan is ostensibly sold out and I still have a bit more of the wait list, uh, to work through. So, uh, if you're interested in, uh, being a part of the show, definitely get in touch sooner rather than later so we can see what we can do. Uh, but it'll be this summer, uh, August 23rd through 25th in Portland, Oregon at Zydell Yards, which is right on the Portland waterfront just outside of downtown. Uh, and you can find us on Instagram at made. bike as well. And is [00:30:06] Craig Dalton (host): there a risk that consumer tickets may sell out? Do people need to get on a mailing list or become aware pretty early in your [00:30:13] Billy Sinkford: process? Uh, it certainly can't hurt. Uh, we do have fire marshal limits that we're working within, uh, but I think we can very easily accommodate double the number of, uh, consumers that we have, uh, last year or so. We're hoping that people buy them in advance one because then it's less paper. It's a lot easier and we're able to get people through quicker, but we have not announced when we're going to start selling tickets to the public yet. We'll wait a little bit. Probably as the snow and rains start to start to thaw and stop falling here. We'll start thinking about it. [00:30:47] Craig Dalton (host): That makes sense. Well, everybody go over to made that bike and definitely get it on your radar for next year is a phenomenal fun show. So many beautiful bikes out there. And for those of you in an entirely different part of the world. I think we've got some breaking news. We can talk about now. Billy about another [00:31:05] Billy Sinkford: made show. Yeah, so this year MADE is expanding our footprint a little bit, and we are headed to Australia. Actually, we're headed to Australia before the main MADE show here in the United States. And it's going to be held in Melbourne. We've got a wonderful director of show, Andy White from Fixo, who is a longstanding friend of mine personally and of the agency as a whole. We've worked with him on a number of projects throughout the year, and he is extremely dedicated to documenting and being a part of the handmade culture in Australia. And we've already got commitments from an interest from Bomb Prova, Partington Wheels, the Lost Workshop, Delo Craft, and many, many more. And that is gonna be taking place June 28th and 29th, uh, at, uh, Darin, uh, verum, uh, just outside of Melbourne. And that also is coinciding with, uh, Andy's, uh, LAR. He has a large event called the the Melbourne. Uh, which takes place on the cobblestones, uh, in, in Melbourne, which I've never personally got a chance to, to witness. I've only witnessed it, uh, via the magic of the internet and I'm looking forward to going over and being a part of that event and then, uh, being present, uh, checking out the builder community in Australia. [00:32:33] Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that's super exciting. I'll be curious to see if it's drawing builders from other parts of Asia, um, into that show and what a fascinating view you'll have to kind of go over and see that community and how it differs and how it's similar to what we have here in North America. [00:32:54] Billy Sinkford: I think there's some things that are universal to a degree, but. Every country is different. Uh, every builder is doing things differently. So, we're really looking forward to going over and hearing all the stories and seeing the work. I do think that there will be a larger draw. I think that. The USA show will always be the largest made show, uh, just because we're able to draw from, I think that we've got an awful lot of media here. We've got a really captive audience, uh, but Australia is quite far away as I am soon to find out on that plane ride. I've heard from people. Uh, so I think there are a lot of, a lot of builders that, you know, having a maid in Australia will give them a chance to get global exposure and connect with media and consumers in a way. Uh, That they haven't before and maybe there are some builders here from the United States that in 2025 decide that they're going to do both or maybe a builder here in the United States has already got great relationships with their customer base and the shops that they work with, uh, here and they want to go dip their toes into another country and see what's going on over there. And I think this will, this will give builders an opportunity to get even more exposure for [00:34:10] Craig Dalton (host): the work that they're doing. Yeah, it's super exciting and congratulations on the launch of that event. I can't wait to hear all about it. I can't wait to see you in Portland again this summer. Definitely one of my favorite shows that I attended as a podcaster and just overall enthusiast. So thanks for all your energy, Billy, you put into the industry as a whole and into the made show. [00:34:33] Billy Sinkford: It is my pleasure. Uh, we're really looking forward to MADE this year, uh, beyond looking forward to it. We're, we're thrilled. So it's hard to, hard to keep the excitement contained some days. I get to talk with so many cool people all the time. And it's going to be a rad year for MADE and a rad year for the handmade world as a whole. And thank you for taking the time to, to chat with me, Craig. Of course. My [00:34:55] Craig Dalton (host): pleasure. Cheers. Cheers. That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Billy for coming onto the show. Super excited about made 20, 24 in Portland and super excited for those of you down under in Australia. Perhaps my cousin Teebo to enjoy the made Australia experience in 2024. Also big, thanks to our friends at AIG one. Remember, check out, drink Agee. Dot com slash the gravel ride for those free travel packs and free supply of vitamin D plus K2. I hope you're doing well in 2024. And until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

Workstand Client Success Team Manager, Barbara Wiesner joins to talk about the past, the present, and how her team helps Workstand merchants everyday

Up Next

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 19, 2023 28:53

Barbara Wiesner has been with Workstand for nearly 18 years. She knows more of our clients and more of our clients know her than anyone else who works at Workstand. Barbara has done a little bit of everything at the company, from the relatively early SmartEtailing days until today, she is a leader who is adept at helping both our teams and our clients succeed.Remember all those meetings at Interbike? Barbara does. She met with clients for years and helped wrangle all that trade show madness to ensure we were able to visit, face to face, with as many SmartEtailing/Workstand merchants as possible.What would Workstand today be like without Barbara? Well, let's all be glad we haven't had to find out.See you around the Workstand!If you're a current Workstand client with questions about your subscription, reach out to support@workstand.com or call 303-527-0676 x 1. If you are not currently a Workstand client with questions about how our programs work, email info@workstand.com and we'll gladly show you around.Find Us on LinkedInRyan Atkinson, President + Co-OwnerSuzie Livingston, Marketing + CommunicationsMark Still, Business DevelopmentWe also publish Around the Workstand on our YouTube channel if you'd like to watch while you listen. Here is our Around the Workstand playlist.If you have any questions about the topics discussed in this episode of Around the Workstand or if you have ideas for new topics we can cover, schedule a time to meet with Mark Still here or email mark.s@workstand.com.#email marketing #marketing #bikeshopwebsites #merchandising #bikeshoppointofsale

American-Made Performance Apparel: The Pinebury story with Kyle Rancourt

discover stage chain gang eddy merckx interbike

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 28, 2023 42:23

Welcome to another episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast

Stage 54 - Back On The Chain Gang

Bike Shop Society

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2023 101:06

Joe and Danny are back. Discover how they ended up in matching outfits. It serves as a reminder that Joe misses the days of Grand Bike Shows and rubbing elbows with the stars. Joe recounts an encounter with an angry Eddy Merckx and a sad Johan Museeuw at Interbike. Meanwhile, Danny has found a new joy in life, and he doesn't think he'll ever go back to life without it. Find out what has him preaching on street corners to anyone who will listen. Lastly, the Saitama Criterium was recently celebrated; the boys find it fun, but it makes you wonder if the locals know what's going on. So lower those elbows and push that butt back: it's all downhill ride from here. Let's go!Got a question or comment?X us @bikeshopsociety @cyclingreporter @joegasparWant a shoutout on the pod, do you like to write letters?Email us: mail@bikeshopsociety.comVisit our website, or don't. bikeshopsociety.com

Bike Talk Podcast - Craig Dalton interview

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 11, 2023 62:36

This week the microphone is turned the opposite direction with Dave Mable, host of Bike Talk with Dave, interviewing your host Craig Dalton. Dave had mentioned the many references I've made to my career and felt the audience should get to know me better. This is a re-broadcast of the original conversation from the Bike Talk podcast feed. Episode sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (use THEGRAVELRIDE for 15% off) Bike Talk with Dave Spotify Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast, I'm actually going to be the guest. So a little while back I was the guest on bike. Talk with Dave. With host Dave Mabel. Dave reached out to me and said, he's been a long time listener of the podcast. He and I connected earlier via one of his film projects. And he mentioned that he felt like I left a bunch of Easter eggs in each episodes. Easter eggs about my history or a little mentions of things that I've done in my life. And he was curious to unpeel the onion and get to know me a little bit better. And it dawned on me that so much of my time on this podcast is spent interviewing others that I rarely share that much about my history, how I found a love for the sport of cycling, how I became a podcaster. And what I do for my day job. So with Dave's permission, I'm going to republish the conversation I had on bike. Talk with Dave. That was originally found on his feed, just so you can get to know me a little bit. So I hope you enjoy the conversation again for the frequent listener. You'll get to know me a little bit. If this is your first time listening to the gravel ride podcast. Maybe this isn't the episode to start with, unless you want to get to know a little bit more about me in the meantime, I did want to thank the dynamic cyclist. I mentioned them in the last episode as a long-time sponsor of the show. At this point, dynamic cyclist offers a stretching and strengthening programs specific to cyclists. It's a video series. Each video is about 15 to 20 minutes long. It's designed to be easy to fit into your life. Something you can do. In addition to all the cycling training you're doing. But it's critically important, especially as you become older, that you really do strengthen and stretch those parts of the body that get overworked. You can imagine as a cyclist, we all sit in this kind of awkward, unique position, and it's important to kind of work other muscles as I'm learning more and more as I'm getting older. So I encourage you to check out dynamic cyclists, just go to dynamic cyclists.com. They've got a free one week trial. So you really know what you're getting into and very inexpensive, either monthly or annual memberships, if you're a gravel ride podcast listener, which obviously you are, because you're hearing my voice. Simply enter the code, the gravel ride, and you'll get 15% off. Either one of those programs. So I highly recommend making it part of your routine. And with that free trial, that's a no reason not to try it out. So with that, I'm going to hand over the microphone to Dave Mabel, who is going to interview me. [00:03:10] Dave Mable: Craig Dalton, I am so thrilled to have you on Bike Talk with Dave. You are the OG of Gravel Podcasts and just talking to you before this thing, I'm just having these flashbacks cuz I do listen to your podcast very, very regularly and even go back to before I started listening to podcasts to hear your old episodes. But it's a treat to have you on and hear your voice in my. Uh, yet another time today. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for [00:03:40] Craig Dalton: Thanks. Yeah, thanks Dave. I'm, I'm appreciative of you having me and looking forward to the conversation. [00:03:46] Dave Mable: I wanted to have you on because, well, a, you've got a cool podcast and you've done some cool things, but you throw out these little teaser about your past history or past life, and you've just peaked my curiosity to be perfectly honest, and I'm like, I just gotta ask this dude. Who he is and how he came to be. So first of all, um, where you call it, where, where are you right now? [00:04:13] Craig Dalton: So I am in Northern California in the town of Mill Valley, so we're right at the base of Mount Tam, which is purportedly the birthplace of mountain biking. [00:04:22] Dave Mable: bike. No doubt. Do you have an old mountain bike? [00:04:25] Craig Dalton: I do, I've, I've, despite the Gravel Ride Pods podcast being my main public persona in cycling, I am an avid mountain biker and have been for, for a very long. [00:04:36] Dave Mable: So I asked you if you had an old mountain bike. How old? What's your oldest mountain bike? [00:04:42] Craig Dalton: My oldest mountain bike is probably 12 years old, [00:04:46] Dave Mable: oh, all right. It's getting [00:04:47] Craig Dalton: so not, yeah, not, not exceptionally old. And I probably, if I had enough room, I probably would've had a few more laying around. I do have one access to. [00:04:56] Dave Mable: to one [00:04:58] Craig Dalton: 25 year old Dean titanium mountain bike that is with my father right now. And the long term vision is that'll come back into my life and hopefully that'll be a bike my, my now eight year old son can grow into at some point. [00:05:13] Dave Mable: a, oh, that's that. That's pretty cool. You better hang onto to that. That's, that's very cool. [00:05:18] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's got a, you know, in addition to being like a neat titanium bicycle from that, that era, I actually, and we can get into this later, I worked at Dean Titanium. That was my first sort of professional job out of college. [00:05:32] Dave Mable: Oh, cool. Oh, I, I do wanna get into that cuz that's one of the things you throw out are little, uh, tidbits about you working in the cycling industry, um, and, uh, and being a lifetime cyclist. , I, I feel like cycling often leads us to cycling industry jobs. So am I guessing right that cycling came first in your life? [00:05:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah it did. And I'll, I'll take you on the way back machine for a minute here, Dave. So my father, my both my mother and father are from England, and my dad was an avid bicycle racer before he came to the us. And a little bit when he set foot on US soil, always a road racer. By the time I was around, he had transitioned into marathon running because having kids wasn't allowing him enough time to ride. But the bike has always been sort of around my life, but I, I certainly didn't pick it up with great interest. I did a little bit of BMX racing, which my father thought was. [00:06:35] Dave Mable: was completely [00:06:36] Craig Dalton: Crazy and uninteresting. He thought that was a, a discipline of cycling. He didn't understand. And thankfully my neighbors raced BMX and they would take me because my parents really had little interest in fostering my BMX career. [00:06:50] Dave Mable: Did your dad ever use the word silly? I'm just picturing an English guy. What are you doing with that silly sport? [00:06:58] Craig Dalton: E exactly. I mean, I think his progression to his progression from cycling as he would describe it, First he had a truck bike, so I had to translate that to being like, you know, beach cruiser kind of city bike style and then fell in love in, you know, in, in the UK they have a lot of cycling clubs that are fostering interest for the kids. So, you know, by the time they're 10 or 12, if they're showing interest. They're getting offered bicycles to use on the weekends and really kind of fostering them and developing them. In fact, my father is one of five boys, and I think four out of the five boys all raced as kind of teenagers into their early twenties. And it's a, it's been a, a unifying thread for the entire family, just the sport of cycling. In fact, my cousin from Australia, originally from the UK is staying with me right now, and he and I reconnected as an adult via Facebook as a platform and our love of cycling. And we ended up going and riding in Belgium together. But I completely digress my progression, again, BMX kind of then just used the bike for getting to and from school. My freshman year of high school, my dad took us on a, a bike tour. It was three of us, freshman in high school and him, uh, up through upstate New York and Vermont. We were living in New Jersey at the time, but it was still not a, something I was craving to do, riding a bike. It was just something. It was a great activity and a lot of fun. It wasn't until my freshman year of college and after my freshman year of college, my dad had bought a mountain bike, and this is to just to date me. That would be sort of around 19 86, 19 85 timeframe. So pretty early on he bought a Cannondale Mountain bike, and while I was home for the summer, I fell in love with it and I decided I really wanted to get a mountain bike. I was in school in Washington, DC. Um, got a job in a bike shop to bring that cost of entry down and ended up buying a Trek 7,000 aluminum hard tail and started cutting my teeth. Uh, mountain biking in Washington, DC for the uninitiated. Washington DC believe it or not, has a lot of dirt trails. You have to figure out how they're all interconnected and it, you know, it's certainly not like being in, you know, Iowa or Colorado, where there's a lot of open space to kind of pursue these. But it was there and it was a quite a fun community. So started racing mountain bikes, kind of my junior and senior year and falling in love with it. It coincided with me falling out of love with being a university student. And fortunately, maybe, I dunno, fortunately or unfortunately, I said to myself, if I can get a degree in business, I can apply that to anything. And in order to finish this degree, my intention is gonna be to go work in the bike. [00:09:48] Dave Mable: the bike. Oh, cool. Wow. That's pretty intentional. Did you end up getting the degree? [00:09:55] Craig Dalton: I did, yeah, I finished my degree and I was managing a bike shop in Washington, DC and I said to my son, you know, I was also bike racing mountain bikes at that time and being fairly competitive at the expert level in the mid-Atlantic region. And I decided, well, if I, if I'm just managing a bike shop, I can do that anywhere. Why don't I move to Colorado? And at the same time, I was applying to bike companies. Via, gosh, snail mail probably at that [00:10:21] Dave Mable: Right, right. Licking a stamp. [00:10:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And, uh, I remember, I, I had got some interest from Dean Titanium and Yeti. They both had potential positions available and I said, that's enough. And I packed up all my stuff, moved to Colorado, went down to interview at Yeti. That didn't work out. Moved to Boulder, got a job in a bike shop, connected with the team at Dean and they, they brought me in for an interview about a month after I. And that led to me becoming National Sales Manager of Dean Titanium. [00:10:54] Dave Mable: Wow. Cool. [00:10:56] Craig Dalton: That title would imply some lofty position and experience, but at that time it was, uh, that meant I answered the phone and tried to convince bike shops and customers to buy bikes. [00:11:09] Dave Mable: Fair enough. Fair enough. So what bike shop in Boulder in what year? [00:11:14] Craig Dalton: I worked for psychologic. [00:11:16] Dave Mable: Okay. [00:11:17] Craig Dalton: And that would've been, uh, 1993. [00:11:22] Dave Mable: huh? Okay, [00:11:22] Craig Dalton: And for, yeah, it was a pretty brief stint actually at the, at the shop before I ended up moving over to Dean. [00:11:27] Dave Mable: actually. Yeah. I had a little history with bike shops in Boulder. A friend of mine was part of the, uh, Morgo Bismarck crew and uh, and then ended up that closed and there was another cycle works, or I don't know. Anyway. [00:11:46] Craig Dalton: so many great bike shops there in Boulder. [00:11:48] Dave Mable: So many great bike shops there in Boulder and so much great riding there in Boulder. I spent a summer in Boulder and, oh, I mean, we still love to go back with our road bikes, believe it or not, and uh, and do some of those road roads either up into the mountains or out into the planes. Like some of those rides out towards Nawat and Longmont and, I don't know, just go east. Were awesome. [00:12:14] Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, for sure. [00:12:16] Dave Mable: So how long were you at Dean? [00:12:18] Craig Dalton: I was at Dean for about a year and a half, and then I, I took a break and was focusing a little bit more on, on racing, which I was still doing. Turns out working for a small bike company doesn't actually give you a lot of time to ride and train on your bike, so I took a break and, you know, got some menial job and, and raced. And then I got an opportunity to move out to California to race for a team that was sponsored by Voodoo Bicycles. And Will Smith and I had a, had made a friend who was out in Palo Alto and got me a place to live out here, so I moved out to race for that team and I was able to get a job with a bicycle computer and accessory manufacturing company called aat. [00:13:01] Dave Mable: Aset. Awesome. I, I should have gotten 'em, but I've, I probably have three old AEC computers in my garage in some old box somewhere. [00:13:12] Craig Dalton: I would love to see them. [00:13:14] Dave Mable: Uh, Avice. I'm thinking of the wrong thing. Who made the Fat Boy? Was that Avice? Did they make [00:13:22] Craig Dalton: that wasn't. They did, yeah. They did have a very popular slick tire. Their computers were, um, had numbers associated with 'em. So Theat 20, [00:13:33] Dave Mable: Yeah. [00:13:34] Craig Dalton: 30, and the AAT 45. And then one of the big innovations that happened while I was there was the aviset vertex. And the vertex was the first. Watch, digital watch that could track elevation, gain and loss. [00:13:49] Dave Mable: I remember that. [00:13:51] Craig Dalton: And it was really, I mean, the older listeners will understand this moment. At that time when you were talking to your buddies about a mountain bike ride and the only piece of data you had was mileage. It was really difficult to compare one ride to another, right? So you could say, I rode 10 miles, but if you did 10 miles and 5,000 feet of climbing, that's a lot different experience than 10 miles and a thousand feet of climbing. So the, the v the vertex became this, this great unlock that we all take for granted today. Like when you go to a course profile for an event, they're always talking about mileage and, and elevation gain that you're gonna experience. But prior to that point, that just wasn't available as a data set. The average consumer. [00:14:33] Dave Mable: Yeah, it was a big deal, wasn't it? Uh, barometric, fresher based. [00:14:37] Craig Dalton: That's exactly it. Yep, [00:14:39] Dave Mable: Yeah, that's pretty interesting and pretty kind of vague. I mean, it's certainly not an exact science, [00:14:47] Craig Dalton: yep. Yeah. And it drifted, right? The barometric pressure would drift and there have to reset your elevation to a known elevation in order to get it to. [00:14:56] Dave Mable: yep. I, I remember those days. I never had one, but I do remember that I did have the ACET 20, ACET 30, whatever they got up to. [00:15:05] Craig Dalton: I think there was definitely a 40 and, and I can't remember if there was a 45, there was one that actually had that Vertex technology into it. Um, that might have been theat 50. [00:15:16] Dave Mable: yeah. [00:15:17] Craig Dalton: But my experience there was gr, my experience there was great. I, I ended up, um, uh, going to work on the national mountain bike circuit. So I would go to all the events and kind of represent AED and have an opportunity to do a little riding myself. I was able to go over to the tour of France once and represent aed. At that time. I mean, the, the thing that, that always, I always come back to with Aset, they used to have these bi, these ads in the bicycle magazines where they would show the front of the, the professional peloton, and every one of those riders had an aviset computer on their bike. And my favorite tagline was, what 90% of the workforce brings to work? [00:15:57] Dave Mable: That's awesome. I can picture that ad. [00:15:59] Craig Dalton: yeah. I was so sold. So I was one of those guys who went over and made sure everybody was dialed when, when onsite changed from their traditional yellow to their Tor De France pink. We gave them all custom pink computers. [00:16:13] Dave Mable: Nice. Nice. That's awesome. What a fun experience. What a great, great, uh, if you're a cycling enthusiast, what a great gig. [00:16:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think, I mean, the bike industry as an as as you know, like, it, it, it has its ups and downs. I do think, you know, as a young person in their twenties, it's a phenomenal place to work. It's just you have to start questioning your career path later in life. Like, where am I? Where am I gonna get to? Obviously the bike industry is fairly small. There's some exceptions, but you know, a lot of these businesses, unless you're the owner, it's kind of hard to really move up the food. [00:16:51] Dave Mable: Yep. And, uh, time is, uh, like if you want to have a family, it's, it's hard to be. At the tour of France for a month every year. And then the tour of Spain, and then the tour of California, and then the et cetera. Et And then you go to Interbike and then you go to the Outdoor Retailer show and you, you, you can be home, gone from home a lot, lot, lot. So it is a lifestyle for sure, but, uh, [00:17:18] Craig Dalton: to that, To that exact end, I, I ended up accepting a position with one of a's competitors, Veta and I moved over to Switzerland to be European. I forget, I was European sales and marketing manager. And effectively they, they, they had a person in the position who was um, usurping too much power. As according to the US bosses, and they wanted someone young who they could control, who was willing to live in Europe, travel around country to country and represent the company. And I was like, that's me. I raised my hand. I'll go. I had a great, I mean I had a great time. The, the company was, was in the course of my brief tenure over there, which was only about six months. The company was bought by a private equity firm and I had some issues getting paid, but I don't. I don't, uh, you know, I had a great experience for six months over in Europe living on someone else's dime. Again, just talking about bikes with people. But I will say after that experience, I was like, I need to take a professional break from the biking industry and go find something else to do. I'll still love riding my bike. In fact, I may even like it more if I don't have to talk about it, you know, 50 hours. [00:18:35] Dave Mable: There's true truth to that statement for sure. Uh, so what'd you end up doing? I mean, that's still a while ago. [00:18:42] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah, so I mean, I guess the sort of abbreviated version is, um, moved back to California, ended up going to business school and St studying technology management. Did a series of work for a series of small companies in the mobile. And then, um, in 2010, I founded a company that made iPad and iPhone accessories, a company called Dodo Case. And, and it ended up taking off, I won't belabor this since this isn't an entrepreneurship show, but ended up building a manufacturing facility in San Francisco. Our products were handmade. I a hundred percent referenced back to my early experience at Dean Titanium in terms. How to build a brand, how to build an aura, how to build quality products, how to, how to stand behind those products and really kind of take and accept consumer input as like the guiding principle of where you take the business. It was in the early days of social media being here in the Bay Area. We sort of understood the game that needed to be played at that time, and we amassed a pretty big following because we just had a great compelling story. I mean, who's hand building phone and iPad accessories in the United States? [00:19:58] Dave Mable: iPad. Yeah, nobody, [00:20:02] Craig Dalton: Exactly. So obviously cycling continued to be part of my life, but it was just a, a recreational activity. I wasn't doing much. I don't think I was attending any, I wasn't going down to Sea Otter, like I let most things come and go. Maybe I would pin a number on here and there as I sort of went out to Leadville and did the Leadville 100. I had a brief stint doing Ironman triathlons, but it was all just in the, you know, the pursuit of fun and scratching that endurance athletics itch. [00:20:33] Dave Mable: bag. Do you remember what year you did? Leadville [00:20:37] Craig Dalton: Um, it would've been either 2007 or 2009. [00:20:44] Dave Mable: Hmm, I'm gonna have to look. We were in that era, so we might have lined up together. [00:20:50] Craig Dalton: Amazing. [00:20:51] Dave Mable: you were probably ahead of us, but, uh, nonetheless, I think my first was like oh, three or four. I did it solo and then I told my wife, I was like, Hey, I think this is tandem about, and she believed me actually. She said, if we get a new tandem, I'll do it. I'm like, uh, I, I'm calling the bike shop right now. [00:21:15] Craig Dalton: Oh man, I can't e [00:21:16] Dave Mable: And she said, yes. [00:21:19] Craig Dalton: I can't even, I can't imagine going up Columbine nor down Columbine on a tandem. [00:21:24] Dave Mable: You know, up Columbine was a lot of pushing, as you can well imagine, and down Columbine. Uh, we bought a Ventana full suspension rig with the Maverick Fork. So six inches of travel front and rear, and I needed all six inches. Like you're going down Columbine and there's people coming up on the other side of the trail. And there's a giant rock in front of you. All you can do is hit it, you know? And so I did, but uh, we always made it down. Uh, the only time we crashed was going up the power line and uh, you know, it's just rocky and hard and. I, uh, come around a corner and the front wheel like just gets up on a lip and then hits another rock and just stops all of our momentum. And for some reason we leaned to the right and there was nothing but air below our feet. And so down we went. friend of us was, a friend of ours was with us at that moment, and he looked at us, he's like, you guys good? Yeah, we're all right. He's like, I'm outta here. [00:22:34] Craig Dalton: Goodbye. It's already been long. If you're on your way back up power line, it's already been long enough of a day. You can't, you can't wait for down soldiers at that point. [00:22:42] Dave Mable: No, that's true. That's true. We made it home though. Uh, so you have a lot of mountain biking in your history. Where did Gravel. [00:22:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so the story around gravel, I had moved from San Francisco to Mill Valley where I live today, and I was riding into the city, and for those of you who don't know the geography here, There's actually a lot of, um, there's the coastal range of hills that kind of go right from the Golden Gate Bridge into Marin County, so you can actually ride in on the dirt. And so I had this new commute and I'm, I'm gonna mention that this was also when I discovered listening to podcasts. And we'll put a pin in that statement for a minute here, but I was riding into the city and I had an opportunity to ride on the dirt or ride on the trail. And I had had a cyclocross bike back in the day and I. [00:23:34] Dave Mable: in the, like [00:23:35] Craig Dalton: It was, this was would've been around 2015 timeframe just to give a, a, a timestamp there. So I bought a, a niner aluminum gravel bike with a max tire capacity, I think of maybe 33 millimeters. And I started riding that and it had mechanical disc brakes, and I started riding that into the city. And, uh, listening to my podcast and I thought, well, this is sort of an enjoyable hybrid of, you know, it's a drop bar bike, so it's efficient. So when I get on the pavement, I can ride to my office, which was, it was about a, an hour and 15 minute trip. Um, one way, but with probably 60% of that being on pavement. So again, like playing, playing in that mixed terrain angle. But I also started to recognize, One that I was enjoying it, but two, that the bike didn't have the capabilities that I needed. The, the hills were steep, so my mechanical disc brakes were requiring too much hand strength to brake, and I, it felt like a huge shortcoming, only having 33 millimeter tires around here. Disclosure, the gravel riding we have around here is, is rough, and many people would argue that it's mountain biking, but it's my cup of tea. But again, so I, I thought. How was I around the sport of cycling my entire life as we've just discussed? How did I botch this bike purchase and buy something that wasn't suitable? And you know, I was reading about the gravel market. It was obviously early days at that point in terms of like the amount of models that were out there, et cetera. And I just had like, I want to go all in on this. Like this is the type of riding I really like. I. [00:25:17] Dave Mable: I get [00:25:18] Craig Dalton: The best bike that I can afford. I want disc brakes and I want big tire capacity. So after a bunch of research, [00:25:27] Dave Mable: I think that's called a mountain bike. [00:25:31] Craig Dalton: possibly, possibly a bunch of research, I ended up, um, selling a road bike and pushing all in on a, an open up with two wheel sets. So I had a road wheel set and, uh, a gravel wheel set. And I absolutely fell in love with it. [00:25:49] Dave Mable: huh, what was the tire capacity of that? [00:25:51] Craig Dalton: Oh, I could run 40 sevens, six 50 by 47 [00:25:55] Dave Mable: huh. Wow. That's, I mean, that's, that's pretty early. I mean, those are, if you're talking 15, 16, like we're still riding cross bikes on gravel those days. I mean, that's, you go by a cross bike and that's your gravel bike. [00:26:10] Craig Dalton: Un unquestionably that open bike was visionary and ahead of its time. It's it. I would still argue that it's spec still holds up with the sweet spot of gravel cycling today. [00:26:23] Dave Mable: Huh, interesting. [00:26:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah, [00:26:26] Dave Mable: So I feel like you dove in Headfirst podcast and you're going all over the freaking world riding a gravel bike. [00:26:36] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so I, I pushed all in. I realized like one, I had a di, I had a, uh, caliber brake road bike and I was like, this thing's gonna be worthless a few years from now as people go to disc brakes. So I was like, I just need to clear out the garage, take the money I get from that, sell the niner and, and buy this one bike for me. The type of road riding I do, I found that the open totally cap. As a road bike with, you know, 28 sea tires on 700 sea wheel sets. And then as I said, with those six 50 B 47 s, incredible bike for everything we have in front of us here on Mount Tam. At around the same time. Now this is going to 2017, we ended up selling Doto case. The business I had. And I had mentioned as a little something, we put a pin in that I had been listening to a bunch of podcasts. Doto case was a manufacturing business. It was also an e-commerce business and a social media business. So I was always in front of a computer, you know, building websites con, you know, trying to convert E-commerce customers to customers. And I said to myself, I need to do something totally different for a break. And selling the company gave me, I don't have to get a job tomorrow. Money. It did not give me, I don't have to get a job ever money, but you know, it gave me a little bit of a window to just kind of explore my own creativity. So I said I'm enjoying podcasts. I'm flabbergasted that I managed to screw up this gravel bike purchase. There's so much going on in gravel. I get so many questions about how to spec a bike. I said, why don't I, you know, I took, I took a podcasting course and I began the Gravel Ride podcast in 2018. With this simple vision of, I was gonna interview people, product designers, and event organizers. [00:28:25] Dave Mable: which I feel like you've stuck to for on five years now. [00:28:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been pretty much the journey and I still, I mean I, you know, as you and I both as podcasters, there's days where you're like, can I keep up the energy and enthusiasm to do. Obviously being conversational podcasts like we both host, it's important that you're engaged and excited to talk to your guest. And I still am. I mean, I, I, I do think, you know in, as, as we hit 2023, some of the, the massive innovation in the, the bicycle design maybe is behind us for gravel. There was a long journey of many years. For designers to figuring out like, well, how do we get the right tire capacity? How do we get the right geometry? And I don't think the, the, there's not one single right answer to that. I think what has emerged is you've got this great category that as writers explore their own interests as they reconcile their own terrain, there's, there's the right bike for. And I'm always the first to say the bike setup I have here is not the bike set up for Kansas, for example. Like, it's just, it would, it would be way overkill. Um, and there's, there's nothing wrong with what I've set up my bike as, and there's nothing wrong with how you've set up your bike. [00:29:52] Dave Mable: with Yeah. Well, you would totally make fun of me. I'm still on a, uh, Uh, this is kind of interesting, a trek Crockett, the pink one, and, uh, flat bar, which is interesting. And it is signed by both Gary Fisher and Katie Compton. Which, I don't know, maybe that went down in value a couple years ago, but I feel like it still has value. I, I'm a Katie Compton fan, but uh, it was kind of funny cuz they were, it was at the TRX CX Cup and truth be told, I wanted spend nest to, uh, uh, to sign it. And every time as a journalist, every time he was available, I was working and. I wasn't working. He was working, coaching, doing whatever. So, uh, I walked past the Katy Compton compound and uh, I was like, Hey, you should sign my bike. She did. Gary Fisher walks by at that moment. He's like, well, how come she gets to sign it? I'm like, dude, here's a pen right here. And then they argue about who had more input into its design, which I just stood back, listened and. But, uh, you know, it's a pretty old sc I mean, it's a cross bike. It's a high, it's a high performance cross bike, and it is a bit sketchy on loose gravel, but on the, when the gravel is concrete, it is awesome. It flies. I have 33 millimeter tires on it, which people are like, I didn't know they still made those. Oh God, I saved them. But, uh, You know, looking at the, the well, 40 sevens. Holy moly, those are big. Uh, I could envision a pair of forties I could envision, um, you know, the, the benefit of a longer bike. Talking to a guy about, um, fat biking recently, he builds his own bike. You'll want to tune in, um, to Steve McGuire and, and hear how he has come up with his fat bike design. Um, Is long, like, really long chain stays because it acts like a keel in the loose gravel. And I'm like, oh, that, I mean, that really makes sense. So there is kind of something for everyone. I, I also have to say, like, I talked to a dude, um, the podcast I dropped today. The guy is, uh, the reason he loves gravel is nobody cares what you're. Nobody cares what you're wearing. Nobody cares how fast you are. They don't care what color your skin is. They don't care how you talk. Like it's just a gravel ride. [00:32:38] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:32:38] Dave Mable: uh, and he really appreciates that. So, boy, that was a rant, wasn't it? [00:32:43] Craig Dalton: a little bit, but we learned a lot about your bike. [00:32:48] Dave Mable: Like I said, there's little Easter eggs we can throw out in these podcasts, right? [00:32:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that the, the sport of gravel's in an interesting place right now, um, just in terms of like the, for lack of a better term, the professionalization of the front end of the pack and that that's impact on the rest of the field. I mean, obviously like we talk about the spirit of gravel and the type of experience that anybody who's willing to sign up for one of these. Should have, like, we're generally, we're not at the front. We're really just just there for the experience, but there is this ongoing kind of evolution of what the front end of the pack looks like and act, you know, the requirements for safety and, um, competitiveness that need to be figured out. [00:33:34] Dave Mable: signal out [00:33:35] Craig Dalton: I'm. I'm, uh, sort of optimistic. There's a lot of experimentation going on this year. You know, Unbound just announced that they're gonna start the professional men by themselves, and then the professional women two minutes after that, and then the rest of the field, uh, eight minutes after that, which I think is interesting. I, I do think, you know, in talking to female athletes, it's, it's always been this curious race dynamic of clearly you're working with. [00:34:03] Dave Mable: men, [00:34:04] Craig Dalton: And other women throughout the day, like anybody would, right? No one wants to ride by themselves, but so much of that can come into play with who takes the win, right? If you, you could, you know, a strong woman can go off the front and someone drafting men could bridge that gap putting in, you know, 20% less effort. And that could be the difference between winning and losing and. I, I have no idea what the right answer is, but I, I do like this idea that they're gonna have some time to themselves to kind of strategically do one thing or the other, [00:34:40] Dave Mable: And [00:34:41] Craig Dalton: knows what those things will be. [00:34:42] Dave Mable: right? And at least have the opportunity to see where people are relative to themselves. Like, oh, there's five women ahead of me and there's 25 behind me. And then the men come and you get mixed in there. You still know like, okay, there's still five women ahead of me and 25 behind me, and so I'm in good shape. As opposed to just not having any idea where the rest of the women are. Cuz you lose them in the, the me. [00:35:09] Craig Dalton: exactly. So I know the, the Shasta Gravel hugger, which I just did an uh, episode with him a few weeks back. Uh, Ben, he's trying a few things. That'll be interesting to see. We'll see the results of that in, in March. Um, yeah, I just think it's gonna be an interesting year for. [00:35:23] Dave Mable: for sure. It, it is going to be an interesting year and it was an interesting year, especially with the world UCI, world Championships and that was definitely an interest. I wouldn't call that US style gravel, uh, women raced on a completely different day than the men. [00:35:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Not at, yeah, totally Not at all. US style gravel. In fact, I, I just had, um, the gentleman on, I haven't released the podcast yet, who's got, who's running the UCI world's qualifier out of Fayetteville for the second year in a row. Um, the name of the event is escaping me. It'll come to me in a minute, I'm sure. But it was interesting talking to him both on the podcast and offline. You know, the, the expectation, I guess, at the USA cycling level for a long period of time was that this first inaugural, um, uci, uh, you know, world Championships was going to be held in the US and I think they just, UCI just wasn't communicating really well with USA cycling. And ultimately it wasn't until, like the very sort of last quarter of the year that they really figured out and leaned in. Hey, if we're gonna pull this off, it needs to be in Italy. It needs to be somewhere, somewhere where they've run events and it's close to home and they can kind of, they, I think they just felt like that was the only way that they could execute. [00:36:49] Dave Mable: was, huh. Interesting. Um, yeah. U S USA cycling, I feel like instead of, it was just interesting who showed up, how they showed up. And then how the race went. And I feel like it was a sep kind of day versus a, or Keegan Swenson for sure. I mean, he probably could have, [00:37:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, [00:37:11] Dave Mable: uh, but, um, but it was such a road race. It was like Perry Rube with gravel sections. [00:37:18] Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. And, and obviously like shorter than we're accustomed to. I'm not necessarily opposed to like that shorter length because I do think. An argument to be said, to say, you know, it's hard to be racing after 200 miles, whereas everybody's racing hardcore after a hundred. Um, I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm, I'm like, my gut tells me like those ultra distance ones are like their own special thing. Um, while I, I just pulled it up. So it's the Highland Gravel Classic in Fayetteville, put on by Bruce Dunn at All Sports Productions. He's got the, the UCI qualifier for this. Um, in Fayetteville again. And I think the interesting thing is, um, you know, who's gonna show up? Like what is the process he and I were talking about, you know, as an age grouper, I could go to Fayetteville and if I'm in the top 25% of my category, I could go compete in the world Championships doesn't mean anything sort of, of my relative ability here in the United States across, you know, any of these big races we have here. But I have to say that that's, that's a compelling story. Like I, I would go to, I would go to Italy and represent the United States. I'm, look, I'm a tourist cyclist, but to like have that honor of like, in the 50 plus category to go over there, I would, I wouldn't, you know, snub my nose at it. [00:38:41] Dave Mable: it? Yeah, for sure. I'd, I'd, I'd jump at that chance. I've got a lot of work to do to even hope for top 25% of our group [00:38:49] Craig Dalton: You, you and me both. [00:38:51] Dave Mable: but, uh, but nonetheless, you're right. It, it would be super cool. I, I feel like there's room for all of it. You know, if you, I feel like gravel cycling. An analogy is marathon or just running road [00:39:06] Craig Dalton: Yep. [00:39:07] Dave Mable: And, uh, anybody can sign up. You can do 5k, you can do the local 5K in your neighborhood and get a t-shirt. Or you can do like the world's largest 5K in, I don't know, Boulder, Colorado. That'd be a 10 K. But, um, same with marathons and uh, you know, Chicago Marathon. 30,000 people, the front line's up at the front and the mid packers line up at their pace and then they go run it. And I feel like gravel's pretty similar. [00:39:40] Craig Dalton: I do too. I think, I mean, I think that the moment in time to build a big race, like a thousand plus person race, it's difficult to find a spot on the calendar where that'll work. [00:39:52] Dave Mable: mm-hmm. [00:39:53] Craig Dalton: Um, today I do think there are, there are always gonna be geographic opportunities, right? Like if there's not a lot of racing in upstate New York, there's an opportunity for someone to create a great race in upstate new. It's probably also important that the economics match up, right? So if, if you've got a, if you're gonna make, if a 200 person race is gonna be the size of your race, just understand that going in and don't overinvest, and you know, it's gonna have little, little bit more of a community feel and some of these major events that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in their product. [00:40:27] Dave Mable: Yeah, it is kind of amazing having watched this happen. Everything from like the beginning I was in Trans Iowa, number two and uh, to full-time staff, full-time year round staff, multiple full-time year round staff running these gravel events. That's kind of crazy actually. Um, We can dissect the world of gravel forever. But, uh, I wanna know more about your podcast. Um, you've got a co-host with Randall, and, uh, I'm curious how that works. Uh, how'd you find him? And, uh, how do you guys, how's it work between the two of you? [00:41:08] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's a good question. So Randall and I got connected. Randall Jacobs is the founder of Thesis Spike and more recently Logos components, which making, uh, some great carbon wheels. He and I connected because he started that business in San Francisco. He was offering people demo rides of the bikes, and, uh, Randall was an ex specialized employee, helped design the original diverge. I got to know him and appreciate his, his personality, his technical acumen. Um, ultimately ended up buying a thesis bike and riding one. So I transitioned from the open to the thesis. The thesis is a fraction of the price of the open. [00:41:48] Dave Mable: Yeah. [00:41:49] Craig Dalton: Incredibly capable. In fact, for anybody on video, it's the, the pink bike right behind me is my thesis. Bicycle, [00:41:56] Dave Mable: I love that pink bike. [00:41:59] Craig Dalton: but very much like the open. Anyway, so, um, he and I just became friends and became people. We, we rode together. We, we saw many elements of the, the, the industry and the world. Similarly, I also recognize that Randall became my go-to guy for technical question. [00:42:15] Dave Mable: guys [00:42:16] Craig Dalton: And it started out, um, first did an episode about thesis bikes and got to know him a little bit, and then I invited him to do a gravel bike 1 0 1 episode. So in kind of quizzing the community, what they were looking for, I realized, you know, a lot of time the starting point of our discussions on the podcast are a little bit more. I'll make the point that I absolutely endeavor to start at the beginning and try not to make too many assumptions, and I'm not trying to be a tech podcast at all. Um, but I brought Randall on and I was able to, he and I were able to have a discussion of, what do you look for when you buy a bike? Let's break it down. Let's help the listener understand at the time in which we recorded the first one, what should you be thinking? [00:43:03] Dave Mable: about? [00:43:04] Craig Dalton: We did the same thing a year later because I felt like the industry kept changing and it was just this great thing to have in the podcast feed, you know, 2019 Gravel bike 1 0 1 episode. Um, as he and I continued to communicate, it became clear, like there were probably some themes, some discussions, et cetera, with people in the industry that he was going to be a. Person to interview them with. So, Randall's episodes tend to either be more highly technical than mine. So for example, he did a great episode with Matt from Enduro Bend, uh, Barings. Where, where they really kind of dug into ceramic and stainless steel bearings and the viscosities of oil and stuff. That's kind of, you know, I can sort of, I'm smart enough to be, you know, it sounds somewhat intelligent about, but I definitely don't know everything those, those guys and girls know. So I said I'm loose on that. And then the other big thing he's super keen on is just community and the community of cycling and the, uh, frankly, the mental health value of cycling as an activity. Uh, and cycling the cycling community as something that, you know, we benefit from not only physiologically as athletes, but. Emotionally in that it, it, it does become this, this release for us when we get out there. And it is one of the things that's always attracted me about riding Off Road is that, you know, you ride a technical section and you just stop and you wait for the next guy or girl to come through and High five 'em, whether they crash or clean it, it's just, it's the best feeling in the world. [00:44:48] Dave Mable: No doubt, no doubt. I it really is. You mentioned community and you started a thing called the ridership. Uh, tell our listeners what it is and what's, why'd you start it? What, [00:45:03] Craig Dalton: Yeah, the the rider, the ridership, a free global cycling community. It has a sort of orientation towards gravel and adventure cyclists, but, Everybody's welcome. It serves two purposes. One, you know, I, I definitely wanted to have a, a easier back channel to me as a podcast host. I wanted people to be able to chat with me directly and, uh, but I also realized like I'm, I'm, I'm potentially a authority in the world of gravel cycling, but I'm not the a. And to my earlier comments about, you know, my technical shortcomings, I realized that, you know, I had this amazing community of listeners that are very capable of interacting with ano one another and they have hundreds of different experiences than my own, or, or Randall's, for that matter. So we're basically built, uh, a community on Slack, and that may not be, Going forward platform, but Slack, for those who don't know, it's just a, a program or an application you can get on your computer or phone and we can sort of segment the conversations into what are called channels. So we have a channel on tires, we have a channels on nutrition, and we have also have regional channels. And the vision was, you know, as gravel cyclists, when you're a road cyclist, it, it, to me, it seemed easy to find. Like I could go and there wasn't a lot of questions. Like as long as I knew the mileage and maybe the elevation gainer loss, like I kind of knew what I was gonna be pedalling on. But gravel, I feel, I felt like you, you missed the real gems. Like it's easy for me to tell you to go up old railroad grade and come down here on Mount Tam, but I've got 20 different, you know, little paths that I can take you on that are gonna create those high five. [00:46:53] Dave Mable: s [00:46:53] Craig Dalton: And we all do. And I wanted, so if I go to Iowa, I want someone in Iowa to tell me where I should go gravel ride, and I wanna ask questions of them. If I go to Europe, I wanna ask questions of someone who lives in the country that I'm visiting. So we started out with that basic premise that everybody's welcome. We've created this open platform that's free to use. Its devoid of any advertis. We, you know, I originally had like a Facebook group for the podcast, and it's like, I don't want to bring you into Facebook to have other ads shoved in your face. I want you to get out on your damn bike. So we wanted something that was like, come talk about bikes to your heart, heart's content, then put it away. We're not looking to be part of the attention economy. I'm not. Monetize your attention. We're just trying to create this community where we can share, share, and exchange value. [00:47:50] Dave Mable: can. Is it working? [00:47:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it is, you know, we've got a, a pretty passionate group in there. There's probably, I haven't checked lately, but probably around 2000 people that participate in the forum. The channel, you know, every day you go in, the channels are lighting up from, you know, people. Having a mechanical question that they're getting someone more technical to answer, or we tend to get a, a bunch of like event organizers who get in the mix there saying, Hey, you know, Shasta gravel huggers coming up. If you have any questions, I'm Ben, I'm the promoter. Just, you know, I'm happy I'm here to answer things like that. And then, you know, a lot of direct messaging, people sell stuff there to, you know, when they're getting rid of a bike or a wheel set or what have you. So yeah. Yeah, I would say it's working. It's not my day job. So, you know, we've, I believe we've created a thoughtful structure. We don't, we haven't had any issues that we've needed to police. Everybody's self-selecting as someone who's just there for information and the enjoyment of the sport. [00:48:51] Dave Mable: there. One of the, there are no rules in gravel, but one of the rules is don't be a dick. So maybe you have people who abide by the rules and are not dicks. [00:49:04] Craig Dalton: That. That's pretty much it, and for anybody who's listening, it's just go to the the www.theridership.com and you'll get a free invite to join. [00:49:13] Dave Mable: Perfect. I love it. I love it. So I want to ask a couple of podcast questions. Who is the guest that you were most surprised? Said yes. [00:49:29] Craig Dalton: Uh, I'll answer this in two ways. I think Rebecca Rush was that guest and the, the second part of that is she could not be a nicer person. [00:49:39] Dave Mable: correct. That is a true statement. [00:49:43] Craig Dalton: Unbelievably engaging, inquisitive, generous with her time like. That's the one I point to that I just, one super stoked that she came on and two super stoked to see that she is every, she shows up in a podcast interview as much as she does on her social media. [00:50:02] Dave Mable: on. Yeah. That's cool. That's kind of fun. What was a surprising moment for you with a guest? [00:50:10] Craig Dalton: Gosh. I mean, I mean there's, there's sort of tricky moments, I think, in any podcast interview sometimes, you know, I don't, I don't do a lot of, um, like pre-show interviewing because it's conversational. Like I just generally want it to happen. I've had a few guests who weren't as. Verbose as I would like them to be. [00:50:35] Dave Mable: or you have to like pull those words out of their mouth. [00:50:40] Craig Dalton: Exactly. I mean, we're obviously an audio medium and, uh, you know, we need people to talk and we need people to tell stories. And, you know, I, I wouldn't invite someone on who I didn't think had an amazing story. I've just had a, a few odd occasions where, you know, they weren't good at telling their own. [00:50:57] Dave Mable: occasions. Yeah. Yeah. I, I can relate to that. And only 50 some in, but, uh, yeah, you, you are right about that. Where, what's your vision? Where do you want it to go? [00:51:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah. You know, I think, as I mentioned earlier, like I, I still am excited to pull the mic in front of me and have these conversations. Um, if I wasn't, I wouldn't keep doing. [00:51:23] Dave Mable: a, [00:51:23] Craig Dalton: scratches an itch for me. As we said earlier, like I've been around bikes and bike racing my entire life, and I do enjoy. Having a foothold in this world and the Gravel Ride Podcast has provided me, you know, opportunity to build an audience and build a community and build relationships within the bicycle industry. I'm fortunate enough that I've got a handful of sponsors that'll come in and help me pay for some of the overhead of the podcast, and on a rare occasion, you know, give me an opportunity. Go to an event or attend something that otherwise might be difficult to get into. And that, you know, that, that to me was the in, in my mind when I started the podcast. That was the reward I was looking for since I'm going to be involved in this sport anyway, having a little perks here and there and, and opportunities because of the, the hours and hours of effort that I put into this podcast seemed like a fair, fair. [00:52:25] Dave Mable: fair, yeah. I actually had somebody ask me today, is this your full-time gig? [00:52:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:52:32] Dave Mable: So Craig, is this your full-time gig [00:52:34] Craig Dalton: you don't really understand the economics if you're asking that question. [00:52:37] Dave Mable: You're right. No, I did not win the, was it the Powerball $1.1 billion thing? I did not win that. [00:52:46] Craig Dalton: right. Any of you think about it? You mentioned when we were offline about some recent interviews we've been doing with cycling media. Uh, journalists and, you know, with outside laying off a bunch of staff and a bunch of publications, kind of grappling with what the future of media is. You know, I've always felt very blessed in the fact that I, the podcast has never had to provide income for my family. It has never had to put food on the table because that, that's complicated. I mean, the economics don't really work out. For this could not be a full-time position for me. And I am, I'm certainly empathetic to the plight of people who have dedicated their lives to become proper journalists, um, and who are struggling to sort of make ends meet in this current environment. [00:53:38] Dave Mable: Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely a challenge. I actually was editor of a actual paper magazine that was printed on real life paper and you like, sat on the toilet and read it. Um, [00:53:54] Craig Dalton: Love it. [00:53:56] Dave Mable: And I feel like I am a Cartwright in 1912 when people are st starting to buy the, the Ford model A or whatever, and that I'm seeing the writing on the wall that like, in a few years, there will be no more Cartwrights. [00:54:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's a super difficult transition because, I mean, the obvious answer is like, consumers should pay for the content that they consume, whether it's audio or the written word, but the, frankly, like even if there's a willingness to do that, the mechanisms to do so are still klugy and create, you know, the minor hurdles for people to get over. Right. Do I want to get out my credit card to read a particular article that I, you know, became exposed to? N no. But if it was like embedded into my web pay, like into my web browser, like this micro transaction that could be made simple, like I would, I would do that. So I'm sort of, I'm stuck in that, like there are definitely content channels that I pay for, but there are certainly other bits of content that I enjoy consuming. That I like the mechanisms for paying for them. Just the, the friction's just too much for me to do. So, and you know, you, you as podcasters, we see this all the time, right? We, we occupy this very intimate place with the listener, right? We, we've spending, they spend an hour a week with us. And if you think about like that, that attention that we're, we're fortunate enough to garner from our listeners, that's a massive amount. Attention. People know a a lot about me from the years of podcasting and my myself on the mic. Yet [00:55:46] Dave Mable: Yet [00:55:47] Craig Dalton: it's very difficult for anybody to figure out how to compensate me for their appreciation of my words. [00:55:53] Dave Mable: Right, right. They could buy you a coffee. [00:55:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah, indeed. Yes. That's a little, I appreciate the plug, Dave. I mean, I have, I've always had this sort. Super modest, buy me a coffee account, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. And I mean, I'm always like super appreciative if someone takes a moment and does that cuz it's not, it's not first and foremost, it's sort of like something I do mention, but I, I don't push it and I don't have a, like a, a really elaborate Patreon program that allows you to get bonus episodes. And if I had more time, I would love to do that. Cause I, I. A hundred percent like to provide more value for those people who, who are supporting me. [00:56:35] Dave Mable: yeah, I send, uh, my supporters as sticker. So it's, I mean, it's something, but you're right, it's, it's, it's a treat to get an email that says, uh, Hey, somebody bought you a coffee. Like, ah, that's super nice because it's, I mean, they do have to log on and they do have to like, get out their credit card and punch a bunch of things on their computer and push send and, and, uh, it's time outta their day to show their appreciation for what, what you're doing and, and what you're bringing them. And you're right. Uh, an hour a week and we're like, Like drilled into people's heads through their ears. Like that's, [00:57:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:57:14] Dave Mable: that's, uh, that's privileged space and time, isn't it? [00:57:21] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. And I will say like, I think just to give the listeners some perspective, I think for every hour we publish probably is three hours of combined effort to kind of get to that hour. That's, that's sort of my, like back of the envelope math around like the effort it takes to kind of produce the podcast. [00:57:39] Dave Mable: Yeah, I feel like you're more efficient than me. [00:57:45] Craig Dalton: I mean either that Dave or my editing is, is really low pro. [00:57:49] Dave Mable: Oh, I don't know. You should listen to the podcast I dropped today. There was a moment where I just drew a blank in this conversation and I said to the guy, I was like, you ever like just have a blank moment and you can't come up with whatever you're gonna say? And he's like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, it sucks cuz I did not want to edit this and I'm gonna have to. And then as I was listening to it, as I was editing, I'm leaving that in there. Like, that's raw me. I'm leaving that in there. So I [00:58:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I do have to say Dave, like I, I, I had that issue early on in the podcast where I felt like I wasn't eloquent enough and I wanted to go in and edit everything out. And, you know, eventually I came to the conclusion like, the, the effort is not worth the. Meaning like people came for this kind of raw conversation and the fact that I may have stumbled over my words, et cetera, like that's just part of the conversation and yeah, just gotta go with it. [00:58:48] Dave Mable: Yeah. And it's, it's a, okay, uh, Don, uh, Dan Patrick says, um, quite a bit, [00:58:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah. [00:58:55] Dave Mable: you know what I mean? [00:58:57] Craig Dalton: exactly. [00:58:58] Dave Mable: Well listen, we've been, uh, just about an hour. I really have enjoyed getting to know you face to face here. I'd love to meet you on the bike sometime, whether I make it to Cal, California, whether you make it to Iowa or we meet somewhere in between. Uh, do you have any big rides planned this year? [00:59:18] Craig Dalton: I'm still like, I'm still thinking about my schedule and I probably spend too much time thinking about that. This is the off that one of those positive offshoots of like, I feel like I have the opportunity. If I, if I'm, if I can afford it and get the time off from the family and work, like, there's a ton of things that I can do. Um, and I, I need to get my head around here in January, like, what are the things I really wanna advocate for myself? There's a few races that I'm super keen to do. One being Rebecca's private Idaho. The second being, uh, the Oregon Trail gravel grinder. The weeklong stage. Both, you know, super great reputations. I love the idea of multiple day events because I feel like when you travel to go do one of these events, um, [01:00:10] Dave Mable: events, [01:00:11] Craig Dalton: you're taking up the time anyway, so you might as well ride and enjoy that area for multiple days versus popping in, being super anxious about a race and then just doing that race. So I'm really trying to think about that. I had the great fortune of going to Jer with track travel in November, and that was fantastic. So I'm super bullish on like just the general idea of gravel travel. So, Long answer to your question, definitely you'll see me at at at a handful of events this year, and definitely like I hope to do at least one cycling vacation type trip. [01:00:46] Dave Mable: Ah, very. Very cool. Well, you're, you're welcome to come out and put your 28 millimeter road tires on and do rag Bry with us. It's a fifth 50th anniversary of Rag Bry and I'm an old hat at Rag Bry, so if you want to come out and spend a week riding on the road and eating pie drinking beer, that's about it. That's about what we do. Ride our bikes. Eat pine, drink beer. Uh, you're always [01:01:13] Craig Dalton: uh, I appreciate that, Dave. I've had a couple Iowans on the podcast talking about various events there, and gosh, we, there's so many places to go. I would love to end up in Iowa, one of these years. [01:01:24] Dave Mable: Yeah. Well, you, you've got a, a friendly face here and you got my number, so look me up. Yep. [01:01:30] Craig Dalton: Right on. [01:01:31] Dave Mable: All right. Well thanks tons and, uh, good luck with the pod. Say hey to Randall. Tell 'em I enjoy listening to, uh, his conversations as well as yours and keep up the good work. [01:01:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I definitely will, and it was a pleasure being on the show, Dave. I appreciate what you're doing. [01:01:45] Dave Mable: I, uh, I appreciate that you're, uh, a good, um, role model for me. [01:01:49] Craig Dalton: Chairs. So that's going to do it for this week's conversation. Big, thanks to Dave Mabel for having me on bike. Talk with Dave. I hope you as a loyal listener, enjoyed getting to know me a little bit better. If you have any questions about the things that I've done or want to get connected with me. I encourage you to join the ridership. That's simply www.theridership.com. That's a free global cycling community. We created to connect gravel and adventure, cyclists. From all around the world. So I think we'll leave it at that this week. And as always until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

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Outdoor Media Summit, The New Gathering Place where The Outdoor Industry Comes Together, with Yoon Kim and Lucie Hanes. [EP 374]

The Outdoor Biz Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 28, 2023 71:47

Welcome back to the outdoor biz podcast. You are in for a treat today. Episode 374 of The Outdoor Biz Podcast features my conversation with Yoon Kim and Lucie Hanes from Outdoor Media Summit. If you're not familiar with the Outdoor Media Summit we're going to fix that. An annual event where the folks on the media side of the outdoor biz get together to network, connect with brands, participate in educational workshops and more helping move the industry forward. Facebook Twitter Instagram The Outdoor Biz Podcast Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share! Sign up for my Newsletter HERE. I'd love to hear your feedback about the show! You can contact me here: email: rick@theoutdoorbizpodcast.com or leave me a message on Speakpipe! Presented to by Wolfgang: Show Notes Let's begin with a little bit about you. Lucy, How did you get into the outdoor lifestyle? I was lucky enough to have a very outdoorsy dad who took me on my first hike when I was less than a year old. I mean, obviously, I was not hiking, but I was nice and toasty on his back. So I grew up hiking, and backpacking and then got into whitewater kayaking through passengers adventure camp in Richmond, Virginia. I think I started kayaking then. So that was kind of my first introduction to adventure outdoor sports. Yoon, how about you? I think when I was in college. I had a roommate who was really into the outdoors. I wasn't really into it, but he kind of made it a point to bring me into his sports, which were climbing and mountain biking at the time. And I never really, it's like, for me at first it was just kind of, something that people like me didn't really do. But he, he was pretty insistent about climbing with him on Wednesdays. Marty Combs was the roommate. So you guys are both now involved with the Outdoor Media Summit. For listeners who might not be familiar, tell us about the Outdoor Media Summit. How did it start? Who attends? What kind of things goes on? The content? Lucy, you wanna take a crack at it? Let's start with how it started. How did it start? Yoon- Well I can tell you how it started. So back in the day there, there still is, there's a conference called Shift, which is for land managers and it's mostly for land managers and conservation agencies in Jackson Hole. Christian Beckwith reached out to me and said we wanna bring some media to shift. This is back in 2013 when he reached out to me, the first show I believe, and he said, Hey, we wanna bring media to this conference. How do we do it? You and I have heard a lot of people in media and you're doing a lot of freelance writing and know a lot of editors. So I was like well, have a gathering for media people and, do a separate conference at the same time. It's your conference. He like he, we got some money for some money and you pull together some media folks. And I just wasn't interested. I was doing some other stuff. Then he talked to me a few times and I was like, sure, why not? We'll try it. And so that was the first blogger summit at the time, it was a gathering of like 30 bloggers and that was the first Outdoor Media Summit. And where was it? In Jacksonville. And who at it were bloggers to start with now who attends now? It's pretty much all media from all walks of life related to the outdoors, right? Writers, bloggers, photographers. There's print media and digital media. But we like to focus on, print folks, editors, freelancers, as well as podcasters, bloggers, and Instagrammers. We try to get, the whole spectrum of, of media. It's not just, it's not just words and audio. It can be video, it can be a short form, it can be long form. We're trying to expand the definition of what media really counts as. And what about the content? Tell our listeners about the content you guys provide at the summit. It's, it's great content, by the way. So our kind of philosophy on how we deliver content is at two levels. There's the keynote level and the breakout session-level. The keynote level is a bigger picture, higher level. This is where we're gonna have advocacy themes and like the industry hoorah moments. They get everyone under one roof and let's, think as a community towards, some big high-level talk. So that's kinda at the, at the, the keynote level. The breakout session level is very tactical, very how-to, and it's really aimed at helping you be better at your job as media or as a marketing professional. So those are our two audiences. And then we have our group activities, which is a little bit different. That's more of, business development, business partnership, finding, these silly games and silly ways to bring people together. But at the end of it, we're always, we're very intentional on how we program these things. Because we wanna put media and marketers together and see how they can collaborate to create these business partnerships. So Lucy, would you add anything to that? Yeah, going back to that point about, the immediate and advanced-level content. I think a, a main point of doing that is that we are trying to be this conference for media by media. So that means that everyone that's presenting is also participating. It's this circular relationship. You're not just, you're not just there to share your secrets. You're there to learn other people's secrets too. Just because you're an expert in one thing doesn't mean that you are in some other aspect of media that could really apply to. to you and your future. So we want to be able to have content that speaks to people that are experts that have been doing this for years and decades and think that they don't have anything new to learn, but they definitely do right? Lucy, how'd you get involved with the outdoor media? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a funny story. I was I had just quit my job managing a climbing gym and was doing some contract work for Unionized Mutual friend and colleague Aaron Bible while I was kind of in between jobs. Was not planning on taking any sort of conventional job ever Again, turned out that this was not one, but I started doing some contract work for Erin who introduced me to Yoon. Started working with Yon a little bit, just on the side doing some research and writing for him. We met for the first time in person at last year's summer or met over breakfast, and said, eh, why not? And here we are. But really it was the kind of the magic of creating a community that lured me in and realizing that, there's a way, to create something powerful enough that it's worth any sacrifice. I think you guys have struck a chord on something different. I mean, we were talking about gathering places and things, and I think we've all been to various trade shows and I think things evolve over time. And if they don't stay fresh, people drop out and go do other things. And I think what you guys bring to the table is a different way of, of that gathering point. Was that conscious or did it just evolve as you created it? Yeah. It's funny, we had a Dennis Lu on from outside. He compared what Outdoor Media Summit felt like to what OR felt like 25 years ago. It's one of my favorite testimonials. And I think there is intentionality in creating that vibe, that authenticity. Our steering committee is made up of top names in the outdoor industry, top brands and media. And this is truly a gathering that's designed by our community. We're not owned by private equity. We don't have shareholders and we're only responsible to our community. And that's it. I think there's a real hunger for something different, like you're saying, Rick for a gathering place that is authentic, that is built for us, and something that's also cost-effective, yet hyper-efficient and sustainable. There's a lot of intentionality in how we build that programming. And it's funny, like sometimes people will realize like, wait a minute, that's why they do that. They'll be like, come up. Is that why you guys do that? Like, yep, we do that. People have been attending since 2016. What do you think drives the growth and keeps them coming back? Is it that different format? Is it camaraderie and team building? Is it a combination of all of the above? Lucy, feel free to jump here anytime, I feel like there's a magic that we're trying to capture, which is that authenticity piece, but there's also gotta be that like productivity slash like, I've gotta have ROI on this thing. You can't just go to somewhere and have an amazingly great time walking around. So we're trying to find that balance, and I think that balance is in programming. And so this week we have a steering committee made up, it's the top names, right? The junkies and they're guiding how we're productive. But at the same time make it more authentic. And then we have these kinds of silly brainstorming games on like, how can we come up with new ideas around this stuff? But the ideas that they come up with are, it's really pent-up demand, right? This is stuff that they've been thinking about for a long time that they haven't been able to introduce a trade show environment, but an environment like ours, a little bit more flexible. It's also only media and marketers. So like we can do some things, it's not including sales reps and retail. Right. Distributors and, everyone else involved in the industry. It's just made for marketers at Brands and media. Editors at media. So I think we can create programming that's specific to the needs of those two audiences. There's a third that we're trying to capture here and that's PR folks, PR folks are such an important part of this media ecosystem. And we haven't done a great job at like building programming. Because I think they are an important cog in the wheel. You've been working with a lot of events for a long time. And we talked a little bit about how they're gonna change. Is there anything else that you think other events might be evolving to? Yoon, you've been involved with some trade shows as of late, the big gear show I think we've all been to, but what about other events? What do you think is gonna happen in the trade show world? That's a great question. So this is kinda what I'm seeing is it seems like the evolution or, you could even say the disruption in the event. And outdoor for us. And we, we call ourselves outdoor, but there's, there are 38 other outdoor industries that are part of, that say that they're outdoor. So we'll just say that we're kinda the human-powered corner of the outdoor industry. Right. Fish guys, call themselves outdoor. The boating guys now, call themselves all these different guys say they're outdoor. I think we're more in the human-powered direction. What I saw on bike was, after Interbike went away and the industry needed a new gathering place. They gathered, they rallied around conferences. So first it was people for Bikes. I'm also on the people for bikes events and marketing subcommittee, And that's, that's a really cool volunteer subcommittee position. What I see kind of happening in outdoor is similar to what happened in bike, they may be like five years ahead of us. This trade show went away again because of business proposition. The trade show model doesn't serve brands like it used to. And there's kind of two directions in the aftermath. One is conferences and the other is b2b2c, which is that business to business to consumer. So I see that happening in outdoor where, big gear show and both, kind going for this consumer model, the b2 B2C model. And then there's the conference piece. I think that we're the only real business conference. There are other conferences out there, but yeah, the Outdoor Writer's Conference is pretty business-related from a writer's perspective, right? They go there to meet people where they're gonna create their articles and photography programs and all this stuff for a business purpose. So there are other, other conferences out there, and I think. Really the niche events, the hyper niche-focused events like us, and then the regional shows, right? So in the aftermath of the Old Glory days of trade shows, I wrote a big, long article about this in Outside Business Journal. It's titled of Trade Shows or something. It was a pretty fun piece. Side Ghost wrote it, but Ken Kenji and I wrote it together. And it just kind of, outlays our thoughts on where we think the future of the events industry's headed for outdoor. And that's kind what we came up with is the old heyday of, everything can be done under one roof, every single type of professional can come together and it's gonna be a super long show. With, half a million dollar expenses from a brand, a two-story double-decker, giant booths, those days are over. The dates of rampant spending and events are now being fractured and going to the consumer model where that can continue. The B2C consumer model and then hyper-focused events and then regional events are kinda where we see the evolution going. Alright, let's shift gears and have a little fun. Let's go to the lightning round. How about that? What outdoor activities do you guys participate in? Lucy, how about you? I know you run a lot, right? Yeah. I am a dual sport athlete. I am an ultra trail runner and rock climber. Attempting to take both of those to the semi-pro level. Yeah, that's kind of what I do. It doesn't leave too much energy for anything else. Yoon, how about you? I'd say fly fishing is probably up there at the top of my jams with mount biking. I'm in, I live in Bentonville, so by nature of my backyard, there are tons of biking opportunities out here, and I climb as much as I can, and I ski and snowboard as much as I can. Yoon, how about you all that gear you've reviewed all those years? What's your favorite piece under a hundred bucks? You know what's funny is, I used to, you're right, I used to get tons and tons of gear right? When and I got to a point where I didn't like getting apparel anymore cause I would just get so much of it, right? And I didn't know what to do with it. And then I don't know when this was, maybe five years ago, I decided, you know what, I'm gonna wear the same exact thing every single day. And so I bought, 20 of the same shirts and I got like five, the same merino wool sweaters for the winter. And I got eight pairs of Livsn pants. And I know this is not that sexy of a piece of gear. But it's something that I wear every single day is these Livsn Flex Canvas pants. Like six months outta the year or however long it's, I'm wearing these Flex Canvas pants and I can wear them to semi-formal events. Also, Livsn is based in Bentonville, so I can get away with a little bit more if I'm wearing these. So people recognize like, you're supporting the local community. It has kinda a hometown hero status out here. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to those guys. Lucie- So mine is gonna be a little bit unconventional in that I feel like it's the one thing that allows me to do everything else. Because I think that a lot of people that spend a lot of time doing very active things in the outdoors, we put our bodies through some hell, It's not necessarily the healthiest thing that we can do for ourselves to be pushing our body to that extent all the time. A few years ago, stumbled upon this, this business called Physivantage that makes basically supplements mainly for climbers, but outdoor athletes in general. And using their collagen every day, it saved my tendons from just rigorous damage. As I put them through a lot on the wall and on the trails. So using that every day has been really helpful to me. And that is the main thing. Like it, it keeps me getting out and it keeps me from being injured. And what's it called again? It's run by the climber, Eric Horst. And it's spelled p h y s i v a n t a g e. How about books? Are you guys, I think you guys are both avid readers. Give us a couple of your favorite books. Lucie- I will always keep coming back to Lynn Hill's biography, climbing free or autobiography that she wrote, I mean, many, many years ago. I think it came out in the nineties. But she is just my ultimate climbing hero. If you haven't read it or if anyone hasn't read it, it's worth a read for sure. Yoon, I don't know about my favorite book. It's probably gonna be a Malcolm Gladwell, his series. But I'll say probably the most recent book that I read which I just finished up the other day I thought was really interesting. It's called The Tyranny of Merit. It's like a social justice slash political philosophy. More on political philosophy on it's a pretty interesting read. I'm, and I'm not sure if I agree with everything in the book, but it's really challenging. As we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to say or ask of our listeners? So I teased something earlier about this programming that we built for PR folks. So it's two things. One of 'em is still a little under embargo at the moment but it's gonna be cool. It's a specific track for PR folks and we're still developing the programming and that's why I can't talk about it. We've got some partners but it's gonna be really good, but the programming is gonna be specific for PR folks. And then the other piece is gonna be before the show, have opening night reception on the first night. So before that we're gonna be doing an event called New Gear Speed. And as a media person, you'll love it. Cause probably what you hate most as a media person is walking around aimlessly in the aisles between half-hour appointments, right? Well, what do, do now for 30 minutes and you're walking around listening, kinda hoping someone asks, calls your name, or run into someone that you know. And then you gotta do that for three days, right? And it's just a really inefficient way to do product. So one of the most common things I hear from media is, man, I wish we could take three days of trade show, just put it into three hours, and just do a speed date of 10 minutes of 30 different brands. And they just tell me what product they want me to write about, the new product, why it's important, and why I should write about it. And then gimme the best basics of costs and specs. And then move on. And then after meeting 30 brands, 30 products after 10 minutes with each brand, I can walk out and I know the 13 products I'm gonna write about this year and then be done with it. And then they can move on education and focus on education. That's what we did is we created the speed date format. And we didn't create this, this is something that came outta our steering committee meeting, which was cool. Like media, just being like, yeah, it's my pet peeve. I hate walking aimlessly for the next meeting. Someone, please solve this. So that's our coolest new program. Rick, I've got a question for you. What makes you want to come back to Outdoor Media Summit? It's a combination of things. One is being new to media and interacting with the media folks, I just learned so much just from the conversations in the halls really, or in the hotel lobby. I'm not a media guy. I've never been a media guy. I've been a sales and product guy my whole life, and even though I interacted with those guys a little bit, the marketing guys did all that, not me. I was busy selling to the retailers or whatever. So that's what I got most out of it was just that interaction about, listening to what they do and how they do it. And I feel like my show was designed to share the stories of the people because I think we all have such great stories, such great backgrounds, and many of us have been in it a long time. So it's great, history and experience to pass on. And a podcast is perfect for that. So that's why I go, is to catch those people. I think of all the events I've been to, your event does that the best? I get a lot outta the Outdoor Writer's Association conference too. But the trade shows, they're not for that. Right? They're for something different. I totally get it. But that's what I get outta your event. I don't think there's one best. There are so many people that do so many great things. But yeah, as far as interaction, like you say, you curate every minute so that whatever you're doing is working. Because every minute I'm not bored, I'm not looking around for something to do. I'm gonna run into somebody in the lobby. I'm gonna run into somebody in the aisle or walking outta the room, going into another room, or I'm gonna sit next to somebody at the thing I'm sitting at. And just being a new media guy, that's helped me a ton. And I just bought my ticket yesterday, so I'll be back. As we wrap up here can people find you? What's the best way to reach out to you if they wanna ask questions? Yoon? Yeah. My email is yoon@outdoormediasummit.com. I answer every email that comes through. I think I do. Pretty sure I do. Lucy, how about you? Yeah, you can also email me at the same lucie@outdoormediasummit.com or on Instagram at the same @luciehaines We're pretty darn responsive. We love communicating with people. Outdoor Media Summit is intimate and small for a reason and that's so that we can personally interact with everybody, and that's very important to us.

Josh Poertner - Silca

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2022 102:09 Very Popular

In this week's episode, Randall has Josh Poertner on to talk aerodynamics. In a wide-ranging conversation, the two touch upon Josh's time as Technical Director at Zipp, involvement in the development of computational models for rotating wheels, early collaboration with Cervelo founders Phil White and Gerard Vroomen, founding and leadership of the product brand Silca and The Marginal Gains Podcast, and ongoing consulting work with elite athletes and teams. Silca Website Marginal Gains Podcast Episode Sponsor: Logos Components Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Silca - Josh Poertner [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show, I'm handing the microphone back to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's got Josh Portner, the CEO of Silka on the shout out a wide range in conversation about the sport and high performance. Many of you may be familiar with the storied Silka brand. It's been around for close to a hundred years. But josh took over back in 2013 with a mission of merging the highest quality materials and craftsmanship with cutting edge design and manufacturing When you visit the Silca website, you notice a tagline, the pursuit of perfection, never settling, always improving. And I think that embodies how Josh approaches the sport. . So I'm excited to pass you over to Randall to dig into this conversation. Before we jump in i want to thank this week sponsor logos components Yeah, I've been itching to get back on a set of six 50 B wheels, and I've been waiting for my logo's components, wheels to arrive. They literally just arrived last night and I'm super stoked. But yet disappointed because I have to go away for the weekend and I won't be able to actually ride them until sometime next week. I chose the Atara six 50 B model. As you know, I'm sort of big on the big tires, big fun philosophy. So I've been eager on my unicorn, which I've been riding on a 700 SEASET for a while now. To get into the six 50 bees again and see what a six 50 by 50 combined with that rock shock fork is going to yield for me on the trails here in Marin. You guys may remember. Me sitting down with Randall, talking about what makes a great gravel wheel set and everything that went into these logos component wheels. I encourage you to go back to that conversation because whether or not the logo's wheel set is for you or not. I think Randall does an excellent job of teasing out. All the various considerations. You should be having when considering buying a gravel wheelset, It is no small expense when getting into a carbon wheel set, but the team at logos has endeavored with their direct consumer model. Uh, to make it as affordable as possible and make them as durable and high performing as anything out there on the market. I written wheels designed by Randall for the last three years. So I'm super excited. To see his latest vision come to fruition. With these new wheels and I'll have them underneath me soon enough. I encourage you to check them out@logoscomponents.com. Randall's also an active member of the ridership community. So if you have questions for him, feel free to join us over there at the ridership and connect with other riders. I seen people paying that their wheels have arrived so you can get some real, real people answering your questions. About whether they're enjoying the wheelset and how they perform, et cetera. And I'll have more on this in future additions. At this point. I'm going to hand the microphone over to Randall. And i hope you enjoy this conversation with josh [00:03:30] Randall: Josh Portner, thank you for joining us on the podcast. This is a conversation I've been looking forward to for quite some time. Some deep bike nerdy is probably about to ensue, so, uh, let's dive, let's hope. Dive right into it. [00:03:43] Josh: Well, thank you for having me. Always, always up for some deep bike. Nerdy. I like that. [00:03:49] Randall: So a number of our listeners will already know who you are, but just give folks a high level summary of what you do now. [00:03:55] Josh: Oh gosh. So I own Silca, um, or I own Arrow Mind, which, uh, owns the Silca brand and trademark, um, and, and all that that entails. And then we also have a, uh, we own Marginal Gains, which is a podcast and a YouTube channel. And, um, Yeah, our goal is to, a mind works with a lot of pro riders, pro teams, world tour teams. Um, you know, we do everything, Excuse me. We do everything from, you know, performance consulting, uh, modeling, uh, you know, setting up our record attempts for people or, or helping them design our record attempts. Um, you know, we do tire pressure work with pros. We do equipment choices for teams. We think some of the most interesting stuff we do, um, is around where like, uh, teams or national federations don't trust the equipment they're getting from somebody. And they'll come to us and say, you know, the, you know, bike brand X says that this does this, and our writers don't think so. Can you tell us what's true? And. We'll find a way to make that happen. So we, we've had some pretty interesting ones of those with, uh, particularly around the Olympics with the national federations. You know, no, nobody wants to have another Under Armor speeds skating suit, uh, situation, , right? Where all the, all the athletes think something is true and therefore it becomes true and, and nobody knows. And so, um, you know, so we do a lot of that. Arrow mind does that, essentially. And so that's a lot of the performance work I was doing in my old world. I was technical director at ZIP for almost 15 years. Um, and, and then Silca is the product arm of the company. Uh, that's probably how, you know, most people know us. You know, we make pumps and tools and, and, but we also make a lot of crazy things that people look at me and go, Oh, where the hell did that come from? Well, that probably came from some project or another. We did it in the Arrow Mind side of the business, Um mm-hmm. . So that's how we've gotten into sealants and lubricants and 3D printing and, and all sorts of other craziness. Right? That's sort of how the one flows into the other. And then, you know, Marginal Gains is a podcast and, and YouTube channel where we talk about it all and, and we, we typically with a, a team or a company have like a two year. Secrecy period on a technology. And then after that we can do something with it and, and talk about it and tell the story. So, you know, it's always, it's always fun to go through those periods where like, Oh, thank God we can talk about that now, . Cause you know, we're talking about it internally all the time. And, and you're like, Oh, can we put that in the podcast? I don't know. So, so that, that's what I do now. We, I, I play with bikes basically. [00:06:34] Randall: Very, very cool. And, um, when you talk about the consulting work you do, is this kind of full stack performance consulting, is it very a focused, is it all technical sides, including say, like bearing drag or, or things like this? Is it, um, obviously positioning falls into Arrow Nutrition. Like where, where do you, ooh, where does your domain physiology start? [00:06:57] Josh: And I draw the line at physiology, you know, there's a whole, there, there are people who are, are like my equivalent in that world. And, and my God, I can never even dream to. You know, clean their shoes. So, um, no, you, you need someone to talk physiology, you know, And I'll, I'll pull my phone out and we'll call Allen Li or somebody, you know, Yeah. With a bunch of contacts. But, uh, you know, Alan's one of my favorite go-tos for things like that and be like, Oh dude, I've been over my head help . You know, [00:07:21] Randall: he, he's, um, he's actually been on the pod before, but Craig interviewed him, so I might bring him on in the future to do, you know, my, my more kind of nerdy type of interview. Alan's great. Yeah, no, [00:07:31] Josh: he's, he's a lovely guy. He's a lovely guy. And, and I just love, I mean, he, you know, like I find myself pretty quickly sometimes getting into places where people's eyes just glaze over, like, what the hell is this guy talking about? And, you know, I love that Alan can do that to me in about 30 seconds, you know, we're talking about the stuff that he does. You're like, Oh, whoa, shit, way over my head way. I, I didn't even recognize the last four words that you used in that sentence, . And, uh, so it's, it's awesome to be able to be surrounded by people with that. But no, you know, we. The stuff that they come to us for. I mean, you know, when I left sip and started soak, of course everybody and their brother, you know, came and said, Oh, design us a wheel. I'm like, well, like I can't do that for a couple years. But also I'm kind of just done with that, you know, like I've lived that life. I, you know, it, it was fun. But, you know, we, we continually updated wheels for 15 years, but it, it really is kinda like doing the same thing over and over again, you know? And, and so it just wasn't fun for me. So, you know, they'll come and say, um, you know, help us design this cockpit, or we, we do a lot of, with our, our in-house, uh, 3D titanium printing, we do a lot of custom cockpits for, uh, teams, riders, things like that. You know, where we laser scan the rider, get the position, lock that down to the wind tunnel, design the part, 3D print it, um, you know, stuff like that, that, that's really exciting. We, we'd get a lot of, you know what, um, You know, help us optimize for this time trial at the tour or the Olympics or whatever, where, you know, what tires should we run and we can, we have systems and tools and, and spreadsheets and a million other things that we can, um, Yeah. Help, help them determine. And then a lot of times we, you know, we get companies coming to us, um, really just wanting to know, like, you know, if, like, which of their sponsor products should they use and when should they go off sponsor? You know, you'll see that a lot at like, the tour where, excuse me. Um, you know, like they, they ride the sponsor correct product, you know, 98% of the time, and then they're gonna sneak it in here or there when it's really critical. So, you know, what, what are those really critical points? And then, you know, if, if they're gonna risk getting in trouble or outright get in trouble, like it needs to be worth it, right? And so they might come to us with like, okay, you know, we need. I need a time trial tire for this rider for this day. You know, what should we do? And, and we'll help him with that. But yeah, you know, if you, if you were a, a brand, uh, or a world tour team there, or approach our athlete that wanted to go to the win tunnel, you know, you might pay us to come along. Um, a lot of what I do too is kind of fun is just act as like a fly on the wall in these team to sponsor interactions. You know, I think I was probably at half a dozen wind tunnel tests last year where I really had pretty much nothing to contribute other than being the neutral third party in the room, um mm-hmm. you know, so that everybody was comfortable that everybody was. Comfortable . [00:10:26] Randall: Well, I would imagine there's a mix of the, uh, the political, if you're talking about, you know, what should be using our own sponsors gear versus slipping something else in all the way to, um, balancing the competing goals of say, like comfort and pure power output on the bike versus aerodynamics. Um, if you're talking about a time trial position. Yeah. [00:10:47] Josh: Oh yeah, for sure. And, and I think even down to, you know, and I think as much as we love to talk science and testing and, and try to be as scientific as possible, I mean, this stuff is really, it's emotionally hard. It's politically hard. It's, you know, companies will bring new equipment in, they're with their engineers. I mean, those guys and girls want that stuff to work so bad. And you know, sometimes you just see things coming out where, Oh yeah, that's clearly faster. And you're like, Well, actually, the way I would interpret that is it's probably about. The same, um, or mm-hmm. , you know, let's, let's rerun that test or, um, you know, it's always, I don't know, it, it, they, they like, people like to get themselves in these loops where, you know, Oh, we did this and it's 10 seconds faster and it's that, And I feel like back in the, you know, when I was with zip, we did this a lot during the Lance Armstrong area and he was writing our disc and, and we were coming in as consultants for the first probably five tours or whatever. And um, you know, every wind tunnel test you'd get to the end and they would have this chart that's like, we just made him 90 seconds faster. And it's like, look guys, that. There is no 90 seconds faster. I mean, you know? Mm-hmm. like, like that is not gonna happen. You know, you, you just did a whole bunch of stuff that's not sustainable that he can't hold his head like that. Mm-hmm. that helmet tails gonna come off the back, you know, I mean, cuz he, people do things like, Oh, oh, the helmet tail moved, rerun. You're like, Yep guys, when you ride in the real world, like the tail's gonna move. Like you don't, you know, people like to, they select data, um, without even realize they're selecting data. And so, you know, it is, it's just good always to have a third party in the room. Um, you know, it's kinda like funny story, you know, back to, you know, my zip days, how Firecrest came about, you know, Firecrest was literally the name of the prototype that, that kind of blew all of our minds. And the reason the prototypes had weird bird names was that we had to double blind them across engineers because you just didn't want anybody. Kind of, you know, having an effect on their product, right? I mean, we all, you know, we all fall in love with our children, right? . And, and in this world, like you, you can't love your children. Um, and you have to be willing to kill them when they're not good. And, um, you know, we would do this double blind thing where we would like assign them all a number and then we would assign bird name, these bird names a number, and then we would randomize it and then they would get all put up. And then nobody really knew whose idea was what, when you were in the tunnel. Um, that's necessary, right? Cause you're, you know, you can be your own worst enemy at that stuff. I think we've, you know, we've all been guilty of that a time or two in our lives. But, uh, you see it all the time, particularly in these performance, um, improvement coaching type things where, you know, people just wanna will something into existence even when it's not. Yeah. [00:13:38] Randall: Well, and I can see, um, you know, the marketing oftentimes has it much more, uh, presented, much more like a, you know, this is just, it's physics. It's more, it's more exact, it's more, um, it's more controlled. And, um, there are competing variables, particularly when you have, you know, a monkey in the middle. You have to, this, this, you know, this animal needs to be comfortable. This animal needs to be fueled, This animal needs to be able to control this machine through a varied environment. And that varied environment may be varying in real time if weather changes or things like this. Um, and so there's just all these competing interests. And so when you see, you know, I often laugh at like, You add up all the different arrow benefits that, you know, different companies claim for components and you should be doing. Right. Right. You know, you might be looking at, um, uh, relativistic effects potentially at some of the speeds you'd be able to achieve. Uh, Jen, just like how, how many watts can be saved. Totally. Being a little bit facetious there. [00:14:37] Josh: Yeah. No, no, it's totally true. I mean, and I still have this photo somewhere, I think I even showed it a couple years ago on social media. But as this, this really great photo that I love that ended up, um, on the wall at the Texas A and Wind tunnel, but it's me with next to Lance Armstrong, um, in the, what became the Nike Swift spin suit, um, that had been flown down there from, you know, Seattle. And it's, uh, oh God, the guy in from his book college or whatever he calls him, and then a guy from Nike, so it's the four of us. And I'm kind of standing there like doing, you know, like pointing at something on his back and it, like, a college student took it for the school newspaper and then they had him autograph it and it ended up on the wall. And so like, Oh, that's me. You know, it's kind of funny. But, but the real story there was that suit, you know, they were paying like 3000 bucks a meter for this suit. They'd been putting it on a mannequin in the tunnel. I mean, it was gonna save three minutes per 40 k. And you're just sitting like going, guys, like, I, I mean, just quick doing the math, like three minutes for Lance Armstrong, you know, like the guys already, That's not possible. And, and of course we get it. We put it on him. Um, the whole thing, you know, it, it's, it's cool, it's fancy, it was very red and it does nothing. I mean, it literally, we were, and the Nike people are there and they're like, Oh, that's not possible. It, it can't do nothing like whole. Let's run it again. Okay. Now get 'em out of it. Put 'em in the normal suit. Run that one. You're like, it, it just doesn't do anything. And, and they just kept going. Well run it again. Well do this. Let's, let's close pin it up. Let's tighten it. Let's, do, you know, I mean, I bet we, we lost two hours trying to make that stupid thing look like it would do anything. You know, And again, it's, it's just people being people and we've all done it. But [00:16:21] Randall: I hear like something of stages, of, stages of grief. Like, you have your baby and like first it's denial, and then you, then you have bargaining. Yeah. Yes. Put so much into this. Yeah, that's exactly, [00:16:32] Josh: that is exactly what it is. And, and you know, the, the crazy reality with that one was, you know, three months later at the tour, they launched it anyway, and they said it saved three minutes and he , you know mm-hmm. . And we, we. It, you know, I just had to laugh. I mean, I remember, you know him, you know, winning whatever one of the time, trials by like a minute and like going, No. So Nike's essentially saying he would've lost that time trial by two minutes had it not been, had he not been wearing that suit. Come on guys. Um, yeah. [00:17:00] Randall: Well, and I think that, that maybe that's, um, you know, headline number one from this interview is don't believe everything you read, especially if it's coming from a party, has a financial interest in it. [00:17:10] Josh: That is true. That is true. Yeah. I, I, I tell don't, don't even believe yourself. Right? I mean, truly like you, you are a bad, um, a bad predictor of things and, and you're a bad feeler of things and nobody wants to admit that. Um, but it's just true. You know, that's, I've been preaching that gospel for, for years. But, you know, I mean, 90, I, I would say 90% of the things you. That you feel when you're on your bike. Total, total crap. Um, and, and we know that cuz we, we've done blind testing with riders. I mean, like unbelievable world class rider. And if you blind them to what they're actually riding, they can't tell you almost any Yeah. Um, you know, all that perception, but still, but the stories away, the [00:17:56] Randall: stories we tell ourselves are powerful. There is a strong placebo effect. Oh, for sure. Uh, for sure. But it has to be acknowledged that that is the placebo. And if you actually had those beliefs about things that had genuine benefits, you would get both, You would get the actual [00:18:11] Josh: benefits. Yes. The, the most powerful thing in the world is a placebo that actually works. Right. , where you get, it's like a, it's a double whammy benefit. Um, and so yeah. That, that's where, you know, I mean, in a nutshell that's a lot of what, you know, I've made my career doing right, is trying to help, help sway people towards the, the, the placebos that, that actually do have a, a, a benefit for them. [00:18:34] Randall: So this has the conversation going in a slightly different direction than I was anticipating, which I'm really enjoying. So I've been, I've been diving into this lecture series from this guy Robert Sapolsky at Stanford. It's on, um, the, uh, uh, behavioral biology, and it's looking at all the different ways in which studies go wrong. And so there's like, you know, beliefs about something, uh, for a long period of time, you know, eminence, people in the field, uh, promulgate these, you know, these ideas. And then it's shown that, you know, the study was, was not, uh, taken, uh, done properly or what have you. And so I'm curious, let's dive more into things that go wrong in the study of aerodynamics and, um, maybe kind of the edge of, say, human performance where interfaces with aerodynamics [00:19:17] Josh: Hmm, ooh. Interest. So, I mean, a, a good. I would say career defining for me, example of that was, um, you know, we, from like 2009 to 2012, we were really all in on developing, uh, CFD for the, for bicycle wheels. And it, it just wasn't working right. Everybody was talking about it and showing papers, and, but I mean, it just, the reality was like the CFD just never looked like the wind tunnel. The curve shapes were different. The data was, we're, we're talking It [00:19:47] Randall: wasn't mid, mid [00:19:48] Josh: nineties, right? Oh, no, Mid, mid late two thousands. Yeah. Like mid, late, late [00:19:53] Randall: thousands. Okay. Yeah. And you're not using, you're having to develop something ground up or you're having to, uh, adapt something from Desso or, or one of these bigger [00:20:02] Josh: vendors. Yeah, So I think the question at the time was, you know, how do you, how do you really properly model the spinning wheel in, in flow that's also translating, right? And you look at. You know, all the CFD stuff with aircraft, um, you know, there's no rotational flow, you know, and then you look at, there's special models that people have built to look at, like, um, turbine jet, turbine engine combustion or whatever. But those are incredibly unique. And they're also, you know, there's RO flow rotating, but in a different access and Yeah. [00:20:36] Randall: The F1 guys perpendicular access. [00:20:38] Josh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, and then you got the F1 guys who weren't really modeling, um, they were modeling the rotation of the wheels, but they were doing it by modeling a rotational component at the surface of the tire. So you were, you weren't essentially like spinning the wheel, you were just saying, Oh, there's a induced rotation a about this surface. Um, which has been in the, the solvers forever. So [00:21:02] Randall: in interesting, this is taught because the, those wheels are traveling so quickly, especially the top of the wheel. If you're doing 200 miles an hour, the top of the tire is traveling at 400. And so you're having sign significant turbulence at that interface, right? Well, [00:21:15] Josh: and you, you have like Magnus effect, right? You're actually getting pressure differential top to bottom, um, you know, from , the direction of the wheel spinning. And so, you know, we, we could do stuff like that pretty accurately, right? You know, you could look at the, you know, a rotating baseball and, and predict the direction that's gonna curve. I mean, things like that were possible. But, you know, every single, and, you know, my God, I used to get, I still do occasionally, but I, I used to probably get 20 PhD papers a year from kids all over the world. Um, you know, Oh, what do you think of my paper on, you know, CFD of bicycle wheel? And we're like, Oh, it's beautiful pictures, but your data's crap. Um, . And it just wasn't figured out. And, and in 2009, I, I met a guy, Matt, uh, Godo, who's a triathlete, but he also worked for a company called FieldView. And they had built all of the CFD automation for, uh, Red Bull F one, um, and probably half the F1 grid, but his, his big account was Red Bull. Um, and he, I met him at Interbike and he had a paper that he was working on. He said, I think, I think I might have figured this out, but I really need to be able to like, Like, build a wind tunnel in the computer and then look at it so we can directly compare them back and forth. And, and so we, we did that. We published a paper at the a I a, which was at MIT that year, and it went over really well and people liked it. And we published another paper the next year, um, at, at the a i A conference. And that went well. And then we got this big grant, like an $80,000 grant from Intel, um, to really tackle this problem. Cause the, the head technologist at Intel at the time was a guy, uh, Bill Fry Rise, and one, one of the coolest guys I ever met. Um, you know, the kind of guy who, whose resume just has like a five year period that says like Los Alamos , like, [00:23:01] Randall: okay, you're cool. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Not, not allowed to talk about it. What do you do? Yes. Uh, yes, exactly. . But, [00:23:08] Josh: uh, but he was a cyclist and he was some senior, somebody at Intel. And, and, um, And they, they gave us this money and we, we, we really went hard at this and we ended up developing a, essentially all of the little nuance details. Uh, we did it in star ccm. We post processed it in field view. I think we processed it on like a thousand cores, which for 2010 was, you know, a lot. Right. [00:23:33] Randall: Um, and these are, these are, um, CPUs and not GPUs for that era. Right. A lot of the stuff of that era GPUs now, right? [00:23:40] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. I remember we, yeah, I mean, that was the beginning of, uh, that was the beginning of the cloud. It was pretty cool, like 2008, 2009, people were still traveling. I remember at one point in that process there was discussion that like, we might have to travel, um, to, Oh God, what is it? The, the university over there in Illinois had a huge, had like a 1200 core machine and they're like, Okay, we, we might have to go there and, and buy, you know, two days of time. And then as that was happening, cloud. Kind of the beginnings of cloud was there. And I remember we, we met a guy who had a cloud thing, and they had just been bought by Dell. And, uh, we were at a conference and he's like, Oh, no, you know, with our, our thing, What was that called? But, uh, with our thing, you, you can just do it like up in the ether. We're like, Whoa. You had never heard of that before. Yeah. Um, it was just exciting times and, and, uh, but, but we, you know, had this great team. We pulled it together. I mean, that's really where Firecrest came from, right? It was, it was largely designed using, um, Hundreds of iterations of capes predicted to be fast, uh, using this cfd. And, and ultimately we won. We, we became like, I think the first non university and non-governmental group to ever win a, uh, uh, innovation excellence award from the Supercomputing Society. So it was pretty cool. Salt Lake City's like this huge super computing conference and you know, it's like darpa, this and university of that. And it was like these four guys from this bike brand and, you know, was, uh, it was a pretty cool experience. But, but in that, so that's like a huge tangent. No, [00:25:17] Randall: no, this is, this is great. And, and just to take a, uh, stop for a second, CFD computational Fluid Dynamics software that is used to model complex multi-variate systems where there's second order effects and, you know, fluids and, and things like this. So anyone who's not, uh, who's not with us on that, like complicated software for complicated system models, in your [00:25:39] Josh: ideal world, it's like a wind tunnel on your laptop, right? In the, in the George Jetson's version of things. It, it's the wind tunnel on the laptop. And in the reality of things, it's kind of more like, eh, it's about as good as guessing most of the time. But, but, but sometimes it's really good at finding certain really specific things. So I won't, uh, I won't knock it too hard, but why the thing I wanna [00:25:59] Randall: dive in a little bit [00:26:00] Josh: here. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me, so let me finish the, the thing that we discovered in this process that was super cool. Um, was that once we had all of these transient, we were solving for all these transients, um, and we really started looking at not just like the, you know, the, the side force or the yaw force or you think of um, you know, the whole thing with like wheels and handling, right? This all came out of this project cuz you could, you could predict the steering torque on the wheel, which, you know, none of the balances being used to test wheels at the time even had torque sensing, right? You had drag side force and lift, but none of them had the rotational components in there. And so that for us at first was like, oh shit, we've never thought about torque cuz we weren't measuring it. Right? It's sort of one of those, yeah, like you've biased your study all along, but then the big one was looking at the predicted, um, data and there were all of these, uh, harmonic effects. and we kind of looked at each other and we're like, Oh my God, every wind tunnel you've ever been in, Right? The first thing everybody discusses is, you know, what's the, what's the, the time across which you're taking the data and at what frequency? And then you're averaging that data, right? Cuz we're all after a data point. And you could look at the tunnel data and the CFD data, and when you pulled them out of their point form into their wave form, essentially you could see the harmonics kind of lined up, the frequencies match when, oh shit, we've been averaging out a really important piece of data for 30 years. You know, this harmonic thing is big. Like what's your, [00:27:39] Randall: your standard? So it's operating on a, it's operating on a frequency that is smaller than the sample rate. Or how [00:27:46] Josh: was it essentially? Essentially we were just idiots and we were just, we were just time averaging the all of that out. Right. I mean, it's, you know, if you need to Okay. Any wind tunnel you, you went to in the world and be like, Oh, well, we'll take, we here, we take data for 30 seconds at, you know, whatever, a hundred hertz, 60 hertz, 120, or whatever it is, and then we'll, we'll take an average. Oh, okay. That, that's fine. Got it. You're averaging out in there is real, um, uh, like amplitude changes, uh, largely due to vortex shedding is, as it turns out with bicycle wheels. But a lot of that high frequency handling stuff, particularly as wheels get deep, um, , sorry, I'm in, uh, I'm in our studio, which is off of our kitchen and somebody's lunchbox just, just leapt off of the top of the [00:28:34] Randall: refrigerator. Um, yeah, sometimes I'll have a niece or nephew come in screaming, so No worries. Yeah. So, but, [00:28:39] Josh: uh, but no, we, we realized there, there was a, a. About a factor of five difference in amplitude between wheels in terms of that, those oscillating effects. Right. Which typically it's just, it's generally vortex shedding. And the CFD can predict that really well, right? Where your little pressure builds up, sheds off, sets off a counter rotation that sheds off. Um, but as a, as a cyclist, you, you feel that as the wheel, you know, kind of oscillating left to right. Um, and we, and let's, let's for 20 years, you know, [00:29:12] Randall: Yeah. So you're just taking the, the lump, you know, 30 seconds averaged out data and saying, Okay, it gives you this amount of benefit and you're not seeing those. Um, I mean, really what we're talking about is, uh, you know, instability that may. Or, you know, otherwise result in, in control issues on the bike. And I want to take a moment to just like, define some terms, uh, because not, you know, many of our listeners are not overly technical. Um, but uh, I think some of these concepts are easy enough to get your head around, like, so, you know, describe at a very high level you're talking about vs. So, you know, maybe describe lader flow and flow attachments and vortices sheddings. How, how does this, how does this, uh, how can you understand this without a, a technical background? [00:29:59] Josh: Oh, those are awesome questions. Okay. So Lader LaMer flow is kind of what you. What the, the world wants you to think of in the wind tunnel. You see the wind tunnel picture and they've got like the, the 10 lines of smoke and they're all kind of flowing together cleanly and beautifully. That's, that's meant to, to evoke lam or flow, right. That if you were to drop a, a smoke or a particle in there, that they would all flow in lamini, you know, like sheets of paper. Um, yeah. Uh, so, so [00:30:29] Randall: it's going in a straight line. Smooth, [00:30:31] Josh: controlled, Predictable, yeah. Flow. And it, it follows the contours of the thing that it's flowing against. So, [00:30:38] Randall: so kinda like water flowing down a river sort of thing. It's not perfectly laminate, but it's all going roughly in the same direction. And there's not a lot of water [00:30:46] Josh: in a pipe disturbance, you know, would be in a pipe better example, presumably pretty laminate, right? And then you start to add stuff, you know, water in the river. Now you're, you're, you know, you've got a rock and now all of a sudden there's a disturbance and it starts to swirl. Um, and so you, you get into, you know, more complicated types of flow. I, I think the, the big ones, you know, for us to think about are, you know, most, so most drag that we deal with comes from, um, uh, pressure related things. So you either have like the, the high pressure on the front of the rider, right? The wind that you're pushing into this when you stick your hand out the car window, right? The mm-hmm. the air you feel hitting your hand, you know, that's, uh, that's a pressure drag, uh, in the positive direction. And then you have the flow, the vacuum in the back. Yeah. The flow will detach off of the object and that'll create a vacuum behind. And so that's a suction drag, um mm-hmm. . And then when you have something like vortex shedding, it's when, uh, the, the. Description I ever have for vortex sheddings. If you've ever driven an old car with, uh, like the metal antenna on the hood, you know, at some speed on the highway, that antenna starts vibrating, oscillating sideways, which is like the last thing on earth you think it would do, right? Like your brain's like, well, it should just keep bending backwards with speed. Mm-hmm. , why is it going sideways? Well, that's that you get this thing where you have a little, uh, a little curl of flow will kind of detach more on one side than the other, and that creates a side force. Mm-hmm. . But in doing so, the suction that that has now left behind will pull a similar vortex from the opposite side. Mm-hmm. . And that creates an opposite side force. And so you get these, see an oscillation, you get these oscillations and uh, you know, that's, it's huge in architecture and mm-hmm. , it, it's why you see so many of those super tall buildings or kind of have pyramid shapes or might have some sort of like, feature that spirals down them to, to kind of break that up. I, I live [00:32:46] Randall: in Boston. We actually have, um, a skyscraper here that was flexing so much, the windows were popping out. This is, you know, decades ago. And, you know, it's still, you know, they have this like funnel of air that's going through there and just the nature of the shape of it and how air gets funneled in, it was causing enough torsion to, um, you know, cause window de bonding. Um, so yeah. That's crazy. Uh, so then, you know, think applying this to the bike and particularly a wheel, um, you know, this is the biggest effect is, is presumably your front wheel where you're having this oscillation, this shift in pressure from one side to the other at a very high, high level, um, that's causing instability. It's making it so that you may lose control of the bike. It's not predictable. [00:33:34] Josh: Yeah. Correct. Correct. And, and the, the other thing we learned through CFD that it was doing, which is not obvious until you think about it, but so you think of the. So you might have, say it that the trailing edge of the front half of the rim, you're, you, you set up a little vortex shedding situation. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so you've got a little side force, but it's kind of at the, the trailing edge of the rim there. Right? So it's got a little bit of leverage on your steering, but the other thing that's happening is that alternating attachment and detachment of flow, um, changing the side force, but you're a side force at an angle. So there's a lift component, right? Which is how the drag is being reduced. And as that happens, what, what's also now changing is what we call like the center of pressure. And the center of pressure. You think of like the wheel from the side, like, like the sum, the aggregate of all the, the arrow forces on that has a center point about which it's balanced. It's kinda like a center of mass. Um, you know, so it's, it'd be center of pressure. Well, that center of pressure when you have. Shedding happening somewhere that's now moving forwards and backwards and very [00:34:40] Randall: rapidly [00:34:41] Josh: as well. Potentially, Yeah. Rather rapidly. I mean, and, and when you really look, look in on it, it, the frequency actually can be quite close to, um, the, uh, speed wobble frequency, right? Which is somewhere in that like three to four hertz range. Uh, which also happens to be really close to the frequency of human, uh, shivering, which is kind of cool's why you're more likely to, to speed wobble when you're really cold. Um, [00:35:05] Randall: and not everyone just push will have experienced speed wobble. But if, you know, if this is basically your, you, you hit a certain resonant frequency of, of the frame based on the frames geometry, uh, the head tube angle, the what are the factors that go into that, [00:35:20] Josh: Uh, it's top tube stiffness is big and so, yeah. Yeah. And it's actually this speed wobble's. Interesting. It's. It starts as a residency issue, but it's really a, it's a hop bifurcation and, um, a hop B. Okay. And so, yeah. And so what you have in a hop, uh, bifurcation is you essentially have two st two stability, um, would be the best way to think of it. And you are jumping from the one to the other. And so like, right up until that, so the [00:35:48] Randall: system wants to be in one state or the other, but not in the middle [00:35:51] Josh: and there's no middle. Right. And, and what's, what's so cool, like, like early in, um, uh, early in covid, you know, we were all talking about this, you know, what is it the are not value, the, you know, like if it's above or below one. And when you, you line that out that are not, when are not crosses one, it's a hop bifurcation that looks just like the speed wobble, bifurcation, I mean the graph. It's amazing how like, cool those things, you know, mathematically you're like, Oh yeah, that's exactly the same as this. It's just here, it's in a, you know, you get the exact same graph if you're looking at, um, Uh, wing flutter in an aircraft, uh, in the wing tunnel. Mm-hmm. , similar bifurcation problem, but yeah. So you, you, you have essentially two states and the system can get tripped from one end into the other. And in the one the bike is stable and wants to go straight, and in the other it wants to oscillate because each oscillation mm-hmm. is setting up the, the counter oscillation. Um, and so like, it, it's, you know, in resonance it's more of like a runaway you, you think of like the, how that's tradition. Yeah. It amplifi forcing. Yeah. It, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Um, and in this one it just, it, it, it's not growing and growing, but it just trips you into this spot where like it's really bad. Um mm-hmm. and it will just shake the crap outta you at the front end. And um, and in fact motorcycles quite [00:37:07] Randall: scary. The high performance motorcycles will sometimes have a steering damper for this very reason. Um, because you'll, yeah, you'll get these speed wobbles. And so the damper is essentially making it so there's some exponentially increasing resistance. Um, I, I know you know this, I'm explaining it for our, our audience just in, you know, cause again, I wanna keep bringing it back down to earth, but, you know, having just like your, your suspension, you don't just have a a just a spring, you have some sort of damping circuit so it doesn't feel like a pogo stick. Um, which is a related effect. Um, but, uh, very cool. And are not for our listeners as well. [00:37:47] Josh: Funny. I hadn't thought about that. I haven't thought about that in like two years as we were talking like, Oh, I remember now. That was, uh, yeah. Yeah, that was, uh, But what or not was the, um, Oh shit. It was the. The contagion ratio or whatever, like how, how many people, each person would transmit to mm-hmm. And so if it's, which makes sense, right? If every person's gonna transmit it to 1.1, it grows. If you're gonna transmit it to 0.8, it, it dies. Um, [00:38:12] Randall: so the analogy here is that, that the increasing amplitude of that, you know, those pressure differentials, sending it to the, the system to one state or the other and causing that increasing oscillation, Is that a exactly correct characterization? [00:38:26] Josh: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you, you can take it right up to a line, um, and you don't have a problem. And then as soon as you cross the line, you're in a different state. Mm-hmm. . And, and that's where I think, you know, speed wobble for those of you who've experienced it or chase tried chasing it on a bicycle, um, you can solve it sometimes with like, the stupidest stuff. Um, you know, one of the, the common ones is to just put a little bit of like, um, like, like a heavier bar tape or a little bit of lead weight in like your, um, Uh, your plugs. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You can oftentimes change it with a tire pressure or a different tire cuz you can add just enough damping at the contact patch. Um, that it just pushes it up high. You know, if, if, cause typically what people will find is like, Oh, it's, I'm totally fine. Then I hit, you know, 38.5 miles an hour and all hell breaks loose. Well. Mm-hmm. , you change the mass at the top of the system a little bit and maybe you've now pushed that point out to 45 miles an. but if you never go 45 miles an hour, you've affected, that's not a problem. Right? Yeah, yeah. Like, oh yeah, I [00:39:28] Randall: fixed it. I think another example that people may have experienced too is like, uh, sometimes you'll have an issue with your car that, you know, won't notice except that certain speeds and it's because of those speeds. There is some, you know, oscillation that's happening. If it's a tire and balance or something in your drive train or the like. Um, you know, I've, I once had a vehicle that was really good up to 60 and then like 60, 61, it was problematic and then it would smooth out a bit after that and it was just like this wobbling effect that would balance out beyond that, that speed. Um, alright, so then bringing things back down to earth. Um, this is delightful by the way. I, I could do this all day, . Um, and I, I hadn't quite appreciated. Um, the, the basic r and d and like basic science and tool building that you were involved in. Uh, so. That's, its its own topic. That's probably not one for, for a podcast of this particular [00:40:22] Josh: def. Yeah. I, I will say on that, I think that's the part that I think never, you know, the marketing never really tells that side of the story cuz it's just too complicated. Yeah. But if you're, if you're out there and you're, you're into this stuff, like that's the fun stuff. Like, I love launching product and, and the product itself. But like, that crazy journey to get there is usually like, that's where all the fun is happening. And, and, and typically cuz we're, you know, you're doing it wrong, like 90% of the time you're like, you know, it's just can be months or years of like, we suck, you know, this doesn't work, we're getting our sasses kicked. And then you, you know, if you persevere long enough, you will come out the other end and it's like, wow, we, we needed all that stuff. Like, we needed to get our heads handed to us over and over again, or we never would've figured this stuff out. Um, Yeah. I really, really enjoy that part of, um, of, of technology development or whatever you wanna call it. [00:41:16] Randall: Yeah. Basic, like real basic r and d right down to building the tools that you need to do the r and d you want to do, um, Right. . Yeah. Very cool. And obviously like the compute power and the, the algorithms available and, you know, the switch to GPUs and all these other things that have, um, changed since you were developing that make it such that today's models are both vastly more powerful and still yet trivial in complexity relative to the system itself. [00:41:44] Josh: Yeah, totally. [00:41:46] Randall: Yeah. Um, well let's dive into some more practical topics. So let's talk about like, alright, so a lot of our listeners we're the Gravel Ride podcast, right? So thinking about that particular experience, um, what should, what are, what is worth, um, a gravel rider thinking about. Uh, with relation to arrow. Uh, so things that can be done that will improve aerodynamics, but then not take away from the ride experience that a lot of riders are after, particularly when they're going to grab, you know, they wanna be comfortable, they wanna have a good time, they wanna have good control over a variety of different terrain and so on. So what are the arrow? Um, and, and they don't wanna look silly, so they might not be, want wanting to wear a skin suit or something like that. Not that it looks silly, but, but you know, a more, a more serious enthusiast type of rider. Uh, what are the Yeah, what are the things to think about? [00:42:36] Josh: Oh, gosh. That's, that's a good question. Um, I mean, I think it really depends on, on what. Th the particular rider, you know, is after, I mean, are you, are you racing? Do you wanna go fast? Do you wanna not get dropped? Mm-hmm. , um, you know, do you need to carry stuff? I mean, I would say one of, one of the big ones that I, I just see and, and you know, we, we make a ton of stuff in our company and one of, one of them being bags. And, you know, we're constantly accused of not making bags that are big enough. And so I've been on this mission for a couple years of like, you know, what is in there, , Like Really? Mm-hmm. what's in there. Yeah. And it is amazing to me just how much crap people are carrying. You know, you, you open some of these monster seat bags, it's like, man, just because you bought it doesn't mean you need to fill it or use it. Um, you know, it, and, and absolutely there's, there's like time and place for it. But, um, you know, I. Some of the stuff like that, like, Oh, okay. You've, you know, do you, you show up on the local gravel right here and you know, people look like they're, they're almost like bike packing, like mm-hmm. , you just don't need, you know, it, it's a 40 mile loop, you know, that starts and ends at a bike shop. Like, you, you don't need to bring a bike [00:43:49] Randall: shop with you. Well, you, you need your coffee grinder, you need your, your mini stove and you need your neuro press. Yeah, Yeah. Um, different experience. You know, let's assume that we're going after like a performance rider who's, um, like doing, doing, you know, a hundred, uh, a hundred mile events than they're, they're training for it and they wanna squeeze out more performance, um, out of their existing setup. Or they're considering, you know, what bike to get, what wheels to get, what, um, how to set it up, even considering bike fit. Yeah. Or, you know, clip on arrow bars and the, like, what are the different things that people can do and what are the compromises and so on. [00:44:24] Josh: Yeah. I mean, the, I, I think certainly for gravel. The one clear cut, no compromise. Better all around product that I can just always recommend is like a, an arrow top drop bar. I mean, it is amazing how much faster those things are than round section bars. I mean, any really, you know, like pro vibe or the zip fuca or whatever, you know, there's, I think every company makes one. It's that big, you know. Oh, it's hu I mean it like wind tunnel speeds. It's a flattop bar can be like 28 to 30 watts. I mean, it's nuts. Yeah. Cause you're, you're replacing round covered in tape with something that's like pretty thin and shaped Well, sure. Or it can be massive, but, but the, [00:45:05] Randall: I didn't, cuz the cross sectional areas is not that big compared to, you know, the rider and the, the rest of the bike and so on. Some [00:45:12] Josh: No, it's, it's, well and in gravel it has the double effect of being, you know, shaped or ized in the direction that is also gonna add compliance, right? Yeah, yeah. And, and comfort. And so you, you know, it's one of the few products I can really look at and go, okay, that thing is more arrow and more comfortable and has more service area for your right. I mean, better all around. Um, that's a pretty easy one to, to go with. And, and similarly, you know, if you've, you've got the money. I mean some of these, the, the integrated cockpit solutions that are out there are even faster, right? Cause it's just even less. Stuff in the wind. Um, so let's talk you, let's [00:45:48] Randall: talk about that. That's big, a big serviceability compromise and, and you know, fit can be a concern with that too cause it's harder to swap components and so on. How much of that is coming from, um, simply not having the cables running into the down tube? Like, can you get the vast majority of those benefits with cables coming out from, say, underneath the bar? If they're tucked in on the bar or even coming out from the bar and dropping underneath the stem into the, the headset from there? [00:46:14] Josh: Yeah. Yeah. My, my rule of thumb for cables that I always use cuz it's so memorable is, um, You know, Greg Lamond versus Fon in the 89 tour time. Mm-hmm. , So 2020 kilometer time trial. Um, the eight second gap, there was more or less equivalent to Fons ponytail, Right. As we, we loved to joke about a cyclist, but was also the equivalent of one number two pencil length worth of cable housing. So, and [00:46:46] Randall: this is, and this is true even if the cable housing is say, in front of the head tube, so it's going to be disturbed by the head tube anyways, cuz you're getting the drag off of it. Be, you see what I mean? Like, so I, I'm trying to hone my understanding of the [00:46:59] Josh: Yeah. I mean, you think, Yeah. So I, I would think, uh, good way to put that would be that, Yeah. Putting, putting a slow. Crappy thing in front of a smooth thing, you're, you're still getting the drag of the slow, crappy thing. Yep. Um, and you may actually be worsening the flow, um, on the arrow thing. So Yeah. Got it. Absolutely. Still, you still have that effect. Um, you know it, and it's hard to say, you know, in some cases, you know, it's, it's close enough or it's just in like the goldilock zone where it's a good distance away where you're like, Ooh, we can kind of make them disappear. And they become, you know, uh, a almost like the cable isn't there, but that's not typically what we see. And typically, you know, you, you throw a bike in the wind tunnel with that and then you rip the cables out and you run it again and you're, every time it's like, Oh shit. Big difference. Difference. You've, in [00:47:50] Randall: terms of watts, like a few watts here, like, so, so the handlebar is the big one, you said as much as 30 watts at wind tunnel speeds, which granted gravel riders generally are, are, we're [00:48:00] Josh: not going that miles an hour. But you, Yeah, you we're out for a long time. Yeah, but you are out there for a long time, so you don't have the speed. But yeah, you, you definitely have the, the, the potential time saving. So, yeah, I, you know, hidden cables. I agree with you. Total pain in the ass. And, you know, my God, I've spent a career working on world tour bikes and, and you know, Ironman, world champion bikes and things like that. And I, I feel everybody's pain, you know, people are always like, Why is the industry doing this to us? Like, like, Well, cuz you want it and cuz it works. I mean there's no, like, it, it's a pain in the ass, but it works. Mm-hmm. . So anywhere you can get rid of cable. get rid of cables, um, you know, skin suit. I have to say not everybody loves it, but man, it can be a huge, huge difference. Uh, I mean, you look at, you know, we were just out at lead, uh, Leadville and Steamboat, and you know, all the top. Guys at Leadville and skin suits now, cuz it, it makes that big of a difference. Um, arrow bars can be huge and, you know, I think that's, that's one I I think everybody's got their own sort of flavor that they like. But, you know, to me, like for gravel, a stubby, a stubby bar that has functional pads mm-hmm. , um, really can be worth it just because it's a different hand position and it, it's enough that it, it's effectively changing your, kind of, your whole torso position and it, it, it's just giving you a, a break all around. Right. It's different pressure points in your shammy for the time that you're using it. It's different, you know, muscles in your back. Um, I think there's a good, this is the, the extent of my physi physiological knowledge, but I, I think it's good to, to mix things up. Um, like that. I, I know a lot of people have kind of gone to these super. Narrow, stubby, I don't even know what you call 'em. Like semia bars that Yeah, [00:49:46] Randall: mini arrow bars. [00:49:48] Josh: Nowhere to put your, nowhere to rest your weight. And, and it just feels like everybody I know using those is constantly complaining about their wrists, you know? Um, and so I, I, again, not a physical, but the change [00:50:00] Randall: in the change in frontal area, um, is that just an unmitigated benefit or are there circumstances where you can reduce frontal area and, you know, have a negative result within the realm of, you know, changing a Roger's position? [00:50:16] Josh: Yeah, you know, a lot of it depends on your, your baseline and, and how good you are. Positionally, I think, you know, when, you know, we do a lot of position training with top athletes and you know, the. The best place you can be that's not an arrow bar is on the hoods with level forearms. Mm-hmm. , right? Like that's the, and and ideally with relatively narrow bars, [00:50:37] Randall: so, and perpendicular upper arms as well, presumably, [00:50:40] Josh: or give or take. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it is, it's, you're gonna roughly get there depending on what the rest of the position looks like and, you know, obviously different body shapes and whatnot. But yeah, I mean, you think horizontal forearms are keeping that pretty much out of the wind. Mm-hmm. , Um, and, and they are also keeping it, it's just hard to hold that position, um, with, in a way that you're also still opening your chest. Because, you know, you were really trying to keep air from getting blocked up under the chest. And when you get a rider doing that, they just always kind of form, which I say always, I'm sure there's some counterexamples out there, but they, they almost always, um, kind of adjust their back and their shoulders in a way that they kind of turtle their head a little bit. You know, the head comes down and you're just kind of now pushing more air up over the body and less down into it. Um, but from there, arrow bars are almost always an improvement, right? Cuz you're narrowing the arms, um, you know, you're tightening things up even further and now you're pushing more flow around the sides, um, and less into the chest and less into the hips. And there's some physiological things. You know, people, you know, wide hips, big hands, certain shoulders, certain back shapes, right? That's why we go to the tunnel, you know, it's, it. 90% of the time, you could look at somebody and go, Oh, do this, this, and that, but man, 10% of the time it looks good and you run it and you're like, That's not good, We can just find a different solution. Um, [00:52:10] Randall: yeah. So air bars are huge. Another thing that we're starting to see is, uh, so BMC has their new cas uh, uh, line. They went with a super narrow, uh, handlebar, so narrow at the hoods, and then, you know, flare at the bottom. Uh, that seems like another thing that again, is, Well, I mean, on the one hand, yeah, you're getting narrower, but on the other hand, you're also closing up the chest and maybe, you know, you're not getting as much oxygen, like air turnover or something. Or like, are there issues where I, so [00:52:38] Josh: I, I have been beating the narrow handlebar drum for 25 years. Um, you know, I am yet to actually see or be told by a real physiologist that that whole. Oxygen lung thing that we were all told as juniors is true, is an issue. Um, yeah, I I've just, yeah, we've just never, I mean that, that I know of and I'm sure somebody out there will say, Oh, here's a paper. But, you know, I, I know whenever we've studied it, looked at it, we've looked at it with athletes, I mean, look at what's happening at the world tour. A lot of that is, you know, we've been beating that drum. I'm starting to see that for years, and people are doing it and they're winning. Um, so, you know, and I wonder [00:53:17] Randall: why aren't we seeing it with extreme flare as well, like a compound flare at least, so that you can still keep a, you know, a reasonably vertical lever position because then you could go even narrower and have, um, still have the leverage for the descending and so on. Is that a [00:53:32] Josh: tradition thing? Yeah, I, yeah, I think some of it's that. I think some of it is just, you know, how far do you really wanna push the uci? Um, [00:53:42] Randall: you know, oh, the UCI cares about the flare in your bars. [00:53:46] Josh: Oh, they will. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think there are actually rules putting some limits on that, but yeah, at some point it's gonna look funny enough that you're gonna draw attention and they're gonna go, Wait a minute. Um, and, and you know, we've, we've [00:53:58] Randall: seen them, I've got a 28 centimeter wide bar with huge flares on there, and I've got specially made levers that come off of it so that I can actually still touch them from the job. [00:54:07] Josh: We have seen it with, I, I can't remember the name of that bar, but I think it's out of Belgium or something. But it's got like, you know, uh, 180 millimeters of reach, um, super narrow with long, and you can kind of lay your forearms. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember seeing that and they quickly were like, Nope, that's out. Um, so I, you know, I think we just, people are, people are cautious. I think the, the setups that are working now, um, are very largely built around that, uh, three T track bar. I can't remember what it's called, but, uh, I know. You know, it's got that kind of cool like wing, like gulling shape to it, but it's super narrow, arrow tops, um, relatively vertical, uh, drops. But, but that's a bar that the ucis allowed for years, right? And so I think that as a, you know, when, when conversations are happening behind closed doors, that's the kind of thing of like, Oh, well this looks enough like that, that if they call us out, we, we go in there and be like, Well, it looks a whole lot like this thing that you've allowed for 20 years. Um, you know, we, we have tons of those conversations. Yeah. So, so I, you know, I, I think, but I, I will say, I, I think too, that's where, um, you know, a lot of people might look at the pro tour and things that they're writing. Oh, well if this worked, they'd use it. You know? I mean, that was what people told us when we were building zip in the early days. Well, if they worked, the Pro Pros would ride it. I'm like, Yeah, but they. They don't know what they're, they don't believe in aerodynamics. You know, they, the pros, they don't riding [00:55:34] Randall: super skinny tires at super high pressures cuz they felt faster for a long time, even though, you know, at least, well, you know this better than than I do. I mean, the data has been saying for quite some time that it's more efficient. Never mind the accumulated fatigue that you get when your body's just being, you know, rattled at, you know, high frequency over the course of many hours. [00:55:56] Josh: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, you know, that I would say they're quite often the last, at least as a group to change. Right. But you, you are seeing it now. I mean the, you know, and, and, and you know, the team like Nios hiring a guy, hiring Dan Bigham to come in and, you know, you, you are seeing some changes, right? Uh, that when teams are bringing full-time people like that in, um, we are gonna start moving the needle there, but it's still a delicate dance with the. With the UCI and, and all the sport governing bodies, right? Nobody, You hear it all the time. Nobody wants a repeat of the whole fna. Uh, I don't follow swimming, but I was the technical, uh, committee director for cycling at the World Federation of Sporting Good Industries. And, uh, at the time when FNA Band banned all of the super tight, uh, swimming suits, and it was just a cluster, right? I mean, they just came out and said, Nope, you've pushed it too far. We're done. And if the whole industry was sideways with like, we've invested millions of dollars in this and the records are breaking, and people wanted and on and on and on, and they just said, Nope, you're done. And, uh, I think it took them five years to under undo all that damage. You know, I mean, you just wanna [00:57:11] Randall: something parallel with running too with, uh, carbon fiber insoles and like what is, what is allowed in terms of the amount of spring that can be delivered and so on. Um, Yeah, I, I see, I see them showing up on my local run. And, um, I might have to get a set just to keep up with the people I used to beat, to keep up with [00:57:29] Josh: It's totally true. [00:57:31] Randall: Uh, that's, I mean, that's, that's, to some degree, that's the nature of the game. And that's why in, in significant part, that's why the gear is as good as it is right now is because, you know, people are looking for, as you would say, those marginal gains. Um, yeah. Um, I wanna dive in. So, uh, I want to put, bring in a few, uh, listener questions. Uh, so we posted in the ridership that you were gonna be coming on, and so we had some folks asking questions there. Probably the biggest one that came up was, um, talking about, you know, we've, uh, Craig and I brought up the rule of 1 0 5 or 5% on the podcast before, but, you know, citing, citing it, it's not a deep understanding, uh, at all. So tell us about how that emerged in. How it applies. Um, you know, particularly in the gravel scene where you're looking at tires that are much bigger. Um, and I mentioned, uh, earlier that, you know, specialized as a video for their reval wheels where they're running a a 42 mill tire on i, I think a 35 or less external rim, and they're claiming some arrow benefit. Does that seem plausible? Is there, uh, given, given, given what you have seen in the wind tunnel and in your modeling? [00:58:41] Josh: Yeah. Um, yeah, it's totally plausible and I guess, we'll, we'll start with rule of one. Oh, so rule 1 0 5 was really, you know, I, I realized pretty early in my career that you had to come up with sort of rules of thumb for things or nobody would listen to you Mm-hmm. and, you know, spent two years traveling Europe trying to sell Arrow. Sell World Tour or pro tour at the time, uh, directors and team owners on aerodynamics and you know, I mean literally got thrown out of every single team, team over there. Uh, I mean, it was just, we just got laughed out of the room. Just imagine [00:59:20] Randall: any of those team directors could have just adopted it at that time and had this huge advantage and didn't, [00:59:26] Josh: uh, that was, I mean, I always said, you know, Uli at srm, thank God, you know, he was developing his thing. And when I walked in to pitch Reese, um, he was alrea

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Greg Willimas - Lost and Found Gravel Festival

Play Episode Listen Later May 10, 2022 34:25 Very Popular

This week we sit down with Greg Williams from the Lost and Found Gravel Festival and Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship to hear about this years festival and the work SBTS does in the Lost Sierra. Episode Sponsor: The Feed Lost and Found Gravel Festival Sierra Buttes Trail Stewardship Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Lost and Found [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. Yeah. This week on the podcast, we have Greg Williams from the lost and found gravel festival and Sierra Buttes trail stewardship organization. Talking about the lost and found gravel event coming up this June in California. And all the great work that his nonprofit does to make the trails in the Los Sierra, an amazing place to visit. Before we jump in we need to thank this Week's sponsor the feed. The feed is the largest online marketplace for sports nutrition. They've got all your favorite sports, nutrition brands in one place. If you've developed an affinity like I have for certain brands. You can hop on over to the feed and mix and match. So you get everything you need in one delivery. If you're a frequent listener, you've probably heard me talk about the feed formula. The feed formula is a customizable nutritional supplement package. Available only from the feed. Feed formulas were developed in conjunction with Dr. Kevin Sprouse. Of the EDF pro cycling team. And uses the same techniques he uses with top athletes. Ensuring they have all their nutritional needs covered. You can customize each packet from a base formula. And add on specific formulas for recovery, for aging, a bunch of different things. If you're not already taking a supplement in your daily routine to support your gravel cycling career. I encourage you to take a look at these. They provide a convenient way in individually wrapped pouches to remember to take all the supplements you need to keep your body operating in tip top shape. Podcast listeners can get 50% off their first order of feed formula by visiting the feed.com/the gravel ride. Remember that's 50% off your first order of the feed formula, simply visit. The feed. Dot com slash the gravel ride. Would that business behind us let's jump right into this week's episode with greg williams Hey, Greg, welcome to the show. [00:02:26] Greg Williams: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited. [00:02:28] Craig Dalton: I am T a man. , we're going to talk about the lost and found gravel grinder a little bit later in the broadcast. And it's a, it's an event that I've wanted to talk about for a couple of years now, actually probably four years, maybe because everybody who ever came back from it was like, this is an amazing event. Let's table that for a minute, because I really want to just start with you and just get a little bit about your background and how you ended up in the region. And then let's talk about the nonprofit, because I think everything you do up there is so intertwined with the gravel event and why it's so special that I think it's important to start. [00:03:02] Greg Williams: Yeah. A little bit of my background. My heritage is Milwaukee Indian up in the Northern Sierra and Nevada city region. And my, my tribe, was displaced almost overnight and my grand great grandfather went he ended up in Downieville actually during the gold rush and. Met this family called the Shaughnessy's, who had, they were opening a supply shop. So shovels and food in town. And my grandfather started building trails and Downieville and running pack meals to the minds. And growing up, it was always, the story that my dad would tell me about Downieville and and it didn't really matter until I got into mountain biking as a teenager and started riding Downieville and I was like, okay, this is it, man. This is my spot. This is, this is what I want to do. And as a teenager, I started guiding a mountain bikes, up in the region and then started running shuttles as well. I opened a bike shop in town 1991, and then started an event that was called the coyote classic in 1995. And now that's the Downieville classic. Downieville has been, a part of my heritage, part of my. My personal economy, part of my survival story. And the town was really starting to transition. I would say, it was a mining town primarily when I got there a lot of dredging on the rivers. And then when that became illegal in California, a lot of the miners in the family started to leave. And about that same time, a lot of the loggers were starting to leave as well. Recreation working with the chamber of commerce and the county kind of became this thing of Hey, will this work here in Downieville? And I think it has, Downieville is a, an international destination. The motels and restaurants, all depend on mountain bike, recreation and tourism. So I think it's a great model of like how recreation can keep a town alive that was, could potentially, have burned out the economy was not doing well. [00:04:59] Craig Dalton: It's so interesting. We often hear about how gravel cycling events have played that same role in rural communities. So it's interesting to hear you reference it back as to how mountain biking was playing that role back in the day for Downieville. Can you just for the listener who may be elsewhere outside of the state of California, can you position their minds as to where Downieville is located? [00:05:23] Greg Williams: Yeah. So Downieville this region, we call it the Los Sierra, and it's basically north of Truckee and north Northwest of Reno. We're about two hours. Like in a car from Sacramento or like 45 minutes from Truckee an hour from Reno like an hour and a half to Chico. So this is zone up here. We call it the Los Sierra. And it was really, there was a mail route back in the gold mining days. And the mailman would ski from Downieville up towards Quincy. And I think got lost a few times. And so it's a name we've stuck with. And part of it's loss of opportunities, loss of revenue. Loss of pride. But we're bringing it back through trying to keep it up, keep it a positive, and that's part of lost and found was, come and find yourself up here. [00:06:07] Craig Dalton: Yeah, amazing. So for the listener, who's obviously like my listener has a gravel orientation. The mountain biking in and around Downieville is absolutely exceptional. And as you mentioned, it's it's got a world renowned ship at this point. People from around the world have heard of Downieville and aspire to ride their bikes there. What makes the trail system so special? [00:06:28] Greg Williams: I think the fact that it Was built during the gold rush. There's a lot and there's a lot of trails, but these trails are like our super rowdy and steep, that's, the character of Downieville is like going fast through the rocks on a cliff. Being scared and then going for a swim and having a cold beer afterwards, so like for us as a trail stewardship, it's really important that we maintain the character of those trails. They were built for mules to go from point a to point B. There was no sustainable running grade. There was no thought of people like enjoying themselves on these trials, or certainly wasn't, they weren't thinking mountain bikes would be on them, but They have the character that people love. And so when we do all of our trail work, we're working really closely with the hydrologist to make sure that these trails are sustainable. They're not putting sediment into the creeks. Our region delivers a lot of clean drinking water to California, 65% between the Yuba and feather. Water's a big thing for us up here. And so as a rough and rowdy trails, so we're striking the balance in Downieville. You can't build those kinds of trails today. The forest service would just say out of spec, but the trails we build, today are just different. They're still as fun and enjoyable. They just, they're just more sustainable. [00:07:44] Craig Dalton: Was it that the fact that. Technically you already existed as mutual paths that you were able to get them effectively grandfathered in the format that they already existed in. [00:07:54] Greg Williams: For sure. And these trails, like in. the seventies, the forest service started to take them into their system. And at the time they were there, their solutions, these trails are open the motorcycles too. So you could ride motorcycles. You could ride e-bikes mountain bikes, hike, equestrian. So a trail for everyone. Those are the best. Those are the trails we like up here. Cause we're not, densely populated. We don't have high use necessarily. A lot of these trails are directional and in a sense that, just how people use them. So it all works really well together. Yeah just historic and some prehistoric from the native folks that were here. [00:08:34] Craig Dalton: You mentioned the Sierra Buttes trail stewardship organization. Can you just talk about the origins of that and what the journey has been like over the time it's existed? [00:08:45] Greg Williams: Yeah. Basically like we, we needed tools to put in people's hands. We were doing trail work days. And those started like with, a group of 10 and everybody had fun. And then the next time we'd have one, there'd be 20 people. And so we were getting these like work parties to where, there was like a hundred people showing up and this was before we had our nonprofit. And so we were. We are struggling to put tools in people's hands. We're good at putting a beer in their hands, on a burger at a barbecue, but we were like, man, we need tools. And we formed our nonprofit status in 2003. And the first grants we wrote were really just to buy tools. And so we started tooling up and then We started hiring folks. Henry O'Donnell who grew up in Downieville. He's our trail boss now. He's been working with us for 16 years and is built, probably a hundred miles of trail with his crews alone. As much as it was about taking care of the trails, it became about taking care of each other and the people and the communities. We like to say we're in the business of revitalizing mountain communities and we use trails as the tool to do it. So we're surrounded by national forest up here. And there's, the jobs traditionally have come from logging and mining. So we see recreation as being sustainable and a chance like for us to be more resilient and retain working families and put kids to work and really educate people on the importance of this place so that they can come up. And join us as land stewards or what the next time there's a bill to vote on for land or water issues, maybe they'll vote. Yes. Because they care about a place. [00:10:18] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. It's quite impressive. The scale of the organization at this point, imagining you starting it, it's quite straightforward to start a nonprofit, but it's quite difficult to generate a significant amount of donations or grants or funding. What did that path look like to obtain this type of scale, where you're able to meaningfully hire people in the community and do a huge amount of work in the last year? [00:10:44] Greg Williams: Yeah. I think one of the early keys and we didn't realize it at the time was just not being. Like, we could have easily said, Hey, we're Downieville mountain bike organization. Cause we were all mountain bikers. We rode dirt bikes, we all hiked. But because we really landed on trail stewardship and we're more inclusive. I think that was a real gift that we gave ourselves early on. Cause in this whole region we work we work in wilderness areas. We maintain huge chunks of the Pacific crest trail associate. Pacific crest trail. We put outdoor classroom and trail on every school campus and Plumas and Sierra county for the kids to get a trail experience and outdoor classroom. And then we build dirt bike trails, we build mountain bike trails. So if there's a trail in our region, like we want to be able to help. We want to be able to maintain it, build it and engage. Any type of recreate or we can become to come join in. So I think that's been a real key to our success. And then also I think, for me, like just growing up a young entrepreneur, like always having to make my own money not, having a big like support system. Get to be like a survivor, and scrappy and your heads up. And, you're just like, okay, what's the next thing. And we've just honestly had that approach with grants and projects, knowing what key projects to take and not take on too much. And and then in times, like with the pandemic and the big fires we've had up here is to really be able. Quickly react and a thoughtful way, like not just panic and not start down a road or a trail, that's like going to be the wrong one, and if it feels wrong in the beginning, we're like, Hey, what are we doing here? Do we have to do this like quick analysis? Like check-ins And so we've just, I think that's just like part of the nature of being up here. If you're raising your family up here and you've been here For generations, you just know like how it is, and it's, it takes everything sometimes. [00:12:38] Craig Dalton: For the listener who wants to support the organization? Do you accept direct donations or is it all grant based? How do you fund it? [00:12:45] Greg Williams: So we fund it. It's interesting. Cause like in 2019, I would say. Okay. Here's how we fund ourselves. We had lost and found we had the Downieville classic. We had grind Duro. We had a UBA expeditions, which is our guide outfitter business and shuttles like shuttling, almost 9,000 people up the hill. That was like 30% actually Yuba was like 28% of our gross revenue and events were up around like 35%. And and then the pandemic hit and took away all of our events took away our shuttles for a whole year limited our operations as a guide service, and then also took away barbecues and volunteer big days. So we got hit really hard. And during that time, We were like, man, what are we going to do? How do we bring up like donations, like to a higher level without events. And so in 21 when that year closed out, our donations were 38% of our gross. When they were at 3% in 2019, we still had no event. Income. Grants are running a right around 40% of our gross. Basically, we have we have public funding, like through grants and programs. We have private funding, we have foundations and then we have Yuba and we're bringing lost and found back on. So really trying to strengthen all the different, legs of the organization. So that. We're more, we can react more. We can be survivors. Like we want this to be A hundred year organization. And like those two years are just really just a little blip, but but at the same time, like when you're in the middle of it, it's like a big mountain in front of you, and so I think just, we've learned so much, we've learned like what we're made of, we know we know how to better support each other as staff and families. So there's really we're pretty confident in that we just need, honestly, we need an investment up here. We have some big projects. We need people sign up for lost and found whether they're going to come and race, or they're going to come and ride and enjoy the aid stations, or they just want to come help volunteer, just like just help us. And that. [00:14:53] Craig Dalton: percent. Yeah. I hope, I hope for any non-profit that's suffered with the elimination of in-person events over the last couple of years, that as you mentioned, just like stepping up their constituents, willingness to donate directly. And hopefully that can become habitualized. So you keep that 30 odd percent of direct donations. Plus you've got event revenue and all the other in-person things you were talking about and you come out of this even stronger than when you began. [00:15:23] Greg Williams: Yeah. That's certainly the goal and like this year we've we're looking at like peer-to-peer crowdfunding. It is one of the components to folks that are lining up or volunteering. But I think it's new, for people they're like, what do I do? How do I do it? Like my son has type one diabetes. And so I do a ride that benefits. It's totally built in, right? Like you're like, oh Yeah. of course this is what you do. This is how you do it. And so we want to get there with each one of our events and have the funding, help us with our operational costs, help us match up grants, no grant is free. It always costs whether it's time or money or volunteers, there's always a cost. So that's like we want, and we want people to be aware, like not just come do the race and be like, Yeah. that was awesome. But really. Have some ownership and some pride and help us like move this, these communities forward a little bit, [00:16:15] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah. I think anybody, you put some rubber on the road or on the trail in the Los Sierra comes away knowing it's a really special area. I'm sure as we get more people up there, they're gonna have a similar love for it and loyalty to it. One of the things that I saw mentioned and saw a couple of friends in the gravel community talking about where was the connected community project. Can you talk about what that's all about? [00:16:40] Greg Williams: Yeah connected communities is really, it's a project that the trails master plan got funded through Sierra Nevada Conservancy, which is a state agency. And and I got invited to, to talk at this mountain venture summit. And I was like, okay, I can just talk about all this stuff like we're doing or the normal stuff, but let's do something cool. And our board president Greg Carter, and I got together and we just had this huge regional map and we just started like laying out sticky notes about each of the towns. And how man, could we connect these with trails? And at the same time, like they're already connected with dirt roads, but how do we promote this? How do we make it to where people can look at a map that's readable? Cause there is 10,000 miles of dirt roads in those regions. So trying to plan a trip is holy crap. I don't even know where to start. There's so many roads. So a big effort is we're going to map out all the high quality gravel, dirt road. At linking the towns so people can start, doing bike packing. Part of our Yuba expeditions guide service will be what we're calling a mountain mule, which is basically hauling your gear from point to point which would be a combination of like overnight camping and then getting you into a town and do some accommodations and restaurants. And then we're going to build 620 miles of single track to connect these towns. part of that's already in the works. Some of it exists already. Some of it's been planned out for a long time. And we're in construction, like connecting Quincy to Taylorsville the next town over. So we have this big project and. It's rolling. It's not, we're not just waiting for the plan to be done. We're actually implementing parts of it. Some of it's an environmental review, so heritage botany, wildlife hydrology surveys are being done. We have two crews that are out ground-truthing all the mapping to ensure that those trails are in the optimum location. But when it's done 15 mountain towns, including Reno and Truckee will be connected all throughout the Los Sierra region was single track. All the dirt roads will be mapped out in such a way that you can plan your adventures. And also know what kind of services each of the town has. And then another component of this is to look at the potential overnight hot locations. But really we want to drive people riding with the main street of the downtown, with their credit card. To patronize these businesses because outside of Reno and Truckee, all these communities are severely disadvantaged economically. So everybody's struggling. And some of these businesses are just hanging on. So this is an opportunity to drive an economy into the region. That's going to last for generations. [00:19:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah, amazing. I love it. I love it so much adventuring to be had in the Los Sierra. No question about. [00:19:22] Greg Williams: Absolutely. We have plenty of room for everybody. [00:19:23] Craig Dalton: Let's move on and let's talk about the lost and found gravel festival. It's coming up here in June, and there's still some slots available. So I want to make sure that people walk away knowing what's the festival all about what's the vibe let's get into it. And I'll ask you some questions to just to figure it all out. [00:19:39] Greg Williams: Yeah. This is an interesting one. And just in terms of how we got into this, and we'd been doing Downieville for a long time and Chris McGovern who's a frame builder. And who also grew up in Nevada city, went to the same high school as I did. I ran into him at Interbike in 2013, and he's dude, you need to do a gravel event. And I'm like, What is that? And And I, and it was just like, man, this is what we used to do when we were kids like ride all these dirt roads, it's oh, that's a thing now. And Chris put this bug in my ear, we started talking more, doing some mapping, invited him and Cameron falconer. Up and we just started like testing routes, like those guys are both super fit. I'm like, I'll drive the support vehicle and meet you guys, here's the map. And so we just started really laying out this course, it started just north of Portola and like Davis and and we got the permits pretty quickly working with the Plumas national forest. And the first year we had around 290 racers and [00:20:37] Craig Dalton: What year was that? Greg? [00:20:38] Greg Williams: I was in 2014. [00:20:40] Craig Dalton: Okay. [00:20:41] Greg Williams: Yeah. And we had great folks like Paul components and WTB who were like, we're doing an aid station. That's going to be a party of its own, and so we had these perfect elements to pull this gravel event off. And then, the second year we doubled the entries the next year, we doubled that again. And like in 2019 we had around 1700 people signed up, we were going to cap it at 2000. And I think just the recipe of like how we do these events, we make them super fun. The courses are great. The aid stations are suburb, just an overall great experience camping live music, all the stuff that we like. And then at the same time, how do we introduce people to this whole new area, and bring them into zones that they wouldn't otherwise get out. So really showcases this region as we're calling it the gravel capital of the west. And that's because it has 10,000 miles of dirt roads. Like you can't find that anywhere in the U S and and there's, great rivers, there's great lakes. There's a fire lookouts. You can visit some of them you can rent for overnight stays. So this is it. This is the gravel capital of the west. [00:21:50] Craig Dalton: I love it. Put a stake in the ground there. What community is Los and fountain based out of. [00:21:55] Greg Williams: It's it starts in the city of Portola, which is right on the headwaters of the middle fork of. the feather river next to the Sierra valley, which is the largest Alpine valley in north America sits around 5,000 feet of elevation with a great big mountain right behind it called Beckworth peak. And right from there, you can hit all these roads, just right off the main paved road. It's perfect. [00:22:18] Craig Dalton: Are you offering multiple course distances? [00:22:21] Greg Williams: Yeah, we have a 35 mile course that has two flagship aid stations on it. And then we have a 60 mile course. That has four aid stations on it. And then we have the hundred that has six aid stations on it. They overlap for the start. Everybody does the first 10 and a half miles, which is a climb up to 7,000 feet. Those are essential in any event is to have a big climb that, that separates people, [00:22:46] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for [00:22:47] Greg Williams: And so those Are elements we learned throughout this. Cause we've had different courses over the years. Some of them were great. Some were like, oh man, don't do that again. [00:22:55] Craig Dalton: Are they what's the starting elevation up there in Portola. [00:22:58] Greg Williams: Yeah. It's I want to say the town is like 5,100. [00:23:02] Craig Dalton: Okay. So starting at 5,100, going up to 7,000 with that first climb, I agree. I feel like back when the events were smaller, it was okay to start off on some single track or something like that. But in this day and age, when you've got a thousand people on a course, definitely great to break it up and to have people find their own, their own tribe in the event. [00:23:21] Greg Williams: Yeah, and we have, we have a great relationship with city of Portola. Going into this year, we were hesitant of man, we don't want to, the last thing we want to do is have to cancel another event. And COVID was still a thing. So we got a late start on this thing, like we're really looking at this as like a rebuild year. We realized like, Hey, we're late to the table here. We also conflict with the Kansas ride. So there's a couple of things like working against us, but at the same time This is going to be a hell of a party. Like we're throwing everything we have at this thing to make sure everybody has a great time and comes back, brings friends the next year. And it, like I said, it was important to city of Portola. They approached us and they were like, Hey stewardship, like we need this event. We just went through two years. Our businesses are hurting. The city helps provide a lot of the camping and infrastructure in the town. So they were a real true partner. And then the Plumas national forest has road crews out there right now, like dialing in all these roads. And what we're hoping is developed, like what we're calling a signature route to where every year the road crew has priorities to take care of on the lost and found routes. So it's every year it's just dial Primo. [00:24:30] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's one of those events, I didn't realize actually it had been around as long as it has, but that makes sense because I feel like at least in the bay area and Marin county, like you talk about gravel riding and. Lost and found, always comes up and it always comes up with two thumbs up saying oh, you gotta do it. It's great. Riding just a great overall community vibe in a sport that is maybe changing a bit to say the least in terms of the amount of resources and the amount of professional athletes coming into it. I think events that just maintain that community vibe are always going to be the ones that are in people's hearts and that they want to do. [00:25:10] Greg Williams: Yeah. And we, we realized like we get top athletes that come here to put it to each other, but the majority of people are here to just go on a bike ride with their buddies, have the aid stations be able to camp out, have the music like that festival atmosphere. That's where we're really trying to position ourselves as Hey, if you want it. There, there is alternatives if you're just purely eraser, but if you want to come and ride like one of the best courses in the world and have some top brands like cater to you throughout the course that their aid stations, like this is where you want to come. And if you want to help support a community recover after, the wildfires and the pandemic and help an organization. With the, with a grand project, a legacy project, like this is the spot like everybody's welcome. And whether you're writing a check or picking up a shovel your help is welcome. [00:26:01] Craig Dalton: Amazing. You talked about a little bit more about from a mountain bike perspective, the type of terrain that's up there for the gravel course, for those who are coming from outside the area. What type of equipment is important to have underneath you to be successful at lost and found [00:26:17] Greg Williams: Yeah, big tires. I think that's the number one thing is the first year we had people like on road bikes because people didn't really know it. Like gravel racing was anyway. They're like, oh, it's this thing. But these you're in the Sierra Nevada up here and it's, there's spots where man, you're like, it's rough. I think like one year, like Carl Decker rode a hard tail man. Fully rigid. So it's just kinda like a mix. And I think, the course that we have this year, I would say you're totally dialed on a gravel bike, but you're going to want like a 40 C tire maybe with a little thicker casing. Just so you're not flattened. [00:26:53] Craig Dalton: Yep. Are you staying primarily on fire roads through the mountains? There are you getting off into this single track? [00:26:59] Greg Williams: We're at, this is a no single track right ride, but some of the roads have single track? lines, right? Like you want to be, you want your head up, you want to be paying attention. There's ruts there's rocks. There's a smoother line, especially on a gravel bike. You don't want to give yourself a whiplash or, too much excitement. But I would say you're paying attention the whole time. You're not, zoning out because the road is just smooth and you gotta pay attention, plus it's so beautiful out here. Like the wild flowers are gonna be coming out. The rivers are flowing the mountain stuff, snow on them. People will be looking around, but they really need to pay attention. [00:27:35] Craig Dalton: once you get a top that first climb, are you doing a commiserate elevation drop? Is it a big descent? [00:27:41] Greg Williams: It's a sweet so the roads were using too are like some of the better system roads, like we've taken people in some pretty primitive back country roads, and there is a mix of this, but this particular road is one of the nicer maintain. Like around a set, like a price of 5% running grade. So you're able to just like big ring paddle through like really big sweeper turns super enjoyable. And then you have another climb that's around 700 feet, another like descent of a thousand. And then a lot of rolling train. Cause you're connecting all these Alpine valleys as you go. And then for the final you come down like the smoothest road in Plumas county. And and then into this tube that goes under the highway. That's a we negotiate this deal with the landowner there. It's a handshake deal, Hey, races are going to be coming through here, your insured. He's great. I'll have my lawn chair and a cooler of beer here to watch, and that's part of what makes the specialty, right? It's just all the community coming together and people working together and allowing stuff like that riders to come through private property, like ordinarily the guy would not allow that, [00:28:45] Craig Dalton: Yeah, you mentioned you've got ample camping situations up there for athletes and families coming up. Are there also other accommodation possibilities? [00:28:54] Greg Williams: Yeah. There's resorts up here. There's motels. there's a ton of camping, honestly, there's forest service camping around like Davis and some of the valleys that the ride's going to be going through. And then city of Portola they have a city park. That's all grass that has like baseball, baseball, diamonds, a swimming pool, the showers are open. And then there's camping all along the middle fork of the feather river, right in downtown. So the idea is get people to stay in town and then they can just ride their bike to the coffee shop or, head over to the pizza place. So that's part of the reason we moved the race down from starting at lake Davis was like, let's get people downtown. Plus, when the lakes full the amount of land we have to work with, decreases quite a bit. It worked great the first year with 200 riders, but now that we're up around 1200 to 2000, we need more. And this park really allows people to spread out. And then we have a little amphitheater for the music and and then there's nothing like just starting in the middle of a downtown, and then finishing at the same place coming through town. [00:29:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I had one final question on finishing. So I've been out there on a great adventure on my gravel bike all day. I crossed the finish line. What's the vibe. What's the scene. When I crossed the finish line at last. [00:30:05] Greg Williams: Yeah. So you're going to get greeted by our local bike team, the Los Sierra composite team. They're gonna, they'll take your bike. They'll wash it. They'll put the, lock it up and the tennis courts. So like a fully secured bike zone. And you're going to walk over and grab a cold Sierra Nevada beer. And then we hire this, like top-notch catering company and mountain magic to do like a top quality meal for ya. Then you're gonna pull up a chair in the park, enjoy a beer, enjoy some live music, eat some food, tell some stories, and then if you have it in you, like the music goes and you can dance all night. [00:30:41] Craig Dalton: I love it, Greg. I think that's an amazing point to end on, and I hope everybody's as stoked about this event as I am. And as stoked about the work that you're doing in the Los Sierra, it really is a special part of California. And I hope everybody clicks on the links in the show notes and goes and checks out the Los and found gravel grinder festival as well as the work you're doing at Sierra. [00:31:04] Greg Williams: Yeah, come on up and play with us. [00:31:06] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that episode with Greg Williams, be sure to check out the lost and found gravel festival. It's definitely going to be an amazing event this year. I've heard only good things about it. So I encourage you to check it out. And grab one of those last available slots. Huge, thanks to our sponsor, the feed. Make sure to go check out the feed formulas to get 15% off. Just visit the feed.com/the gravel ride. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership@wwwdottheridership.com. And if you have an opportunity, please leave a rating or review or visit me@buymeacoffee.com slash the growl ride to support the podcast. Until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

In the Dirt #29 - Custom frame design

trade shows mountainbike mtb sea otters eurobike interbike pinkbike

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 5, 2022 38:20 Very Popular

This week Craig and Randall continue the discussion on the considerations for Craig's custom gravel frame build. We dig into the history of Reach and Stack, the meaning of BB drop and how different materials afford different options and considerations for construction. Episode sponsor: Therabody RecoveryAir JetBoots Support the Podcast Join The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: In the Dirt #29 [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello and welcome to in the dirt from the gravel ride podcast. My name's Craig Dalton. I'm your host. And I'm going to be joined shortly by my cohost Randall Jacobs. In the, in the dirt episodes, Randall and I take an opportunity catch up on everything going on in gravel, cycling. Uh, Everything you need to know in between our long form interviews on the gravel ride podcast This week's broadcast is brought to you by thera body. You may remember thera body from the thera gun massage gun that really revolutionized recovery for gravel cyclists. But this week, we're here to talk to you about something completely next level. We're talking about their body's revolutionary new recovery air jet boots. If you're like me over the years, you've seen these pneumatic compression boots. Underneath pro cyclists after stages of the tour de france or big gravel events and i've always been curious what that experience would be like But every time I looked into them, they seemed not only expensive, but incredibly. Overbuilt, they're attached to sort of something that looked like a car battery. You had wires everywhere. It just seemed overly complicated. As you know, on the podcast, we've been talking about recovery quite a bit lately, and it's driven by my own personal need. I found as, as I get older as an athlete, I just can't recover as quickly. And I need to basically do everything I can to make sure my body's in tip top shape and able to get back out on the bike. So it was super curious when therapy body came out with the recovery air jet boots. It's quite a bit more affordable than the original pneumatic compression boots that were out on the market And in a form factor that can't be beat. Recovery, our jet boots of the world's most advanced pneumatic compression system ever created. For years runners and gravel, cyclists, and everyone who spends hours on their feet. Have had to suffer through leg pains and aches after a hard day. Clinically proven treatments like the compression boots per athletes have always been using, have always been out of reach. Recovery era is a groundbreaking pressure massage system for everybody. Anywhere. With their body's exclusive fast flush technology, recovery air flushes out metabolic waste more fully, and brings back fresh blood to your legs. Three times faster than the speed of competition. Faster cycles means faster recovery. So you don't have to wait for the legs to feel great. There are bodies. Recovery are jet boots are first of its kind. They're truly wireless for anywhere on the go recovery boosting circulation and radically reducing muscle soreness. And thanks to recovery are super intuitive, easy to use one touch controls. Recovering faster as .a breeze. I had a couple of recovery sessions with the jet boots already. And I'm trying to figure out what's the right way to describe it to the listener. You've got an individual boot on each leg that goes all the way up to your upper thigh. As the pneumatic air moves through each boot, you feel your leg kind of compressed tightly, like a nice massage. As it rolls through a process you can set through multiple time sessions, how long you want to be in the product, how long you have for recovery. But I got out of it after a 20 minute session and the legs felt good. So I'm looking forward to doing more punishing rides coming back and getting these jet boots on my body. To find out more, just visit thera body.com/the gravel ride. You can get thera body recovery air today starting at just $699. Or as low as $59 a month with a firm. Plus with recovery, our 60 day money back guarantee and free shipping. There's absolutely no risk to giving it a try at home. Again, that's their body.com/the gravel ride. Would that business out of the way, let's jump into this week's episode [00:03:46] Craig: Hey Randall, how you doing? [00:03:49] Randall: Well, a little bit under the weather here in Boston, but hopefully we'll be recovered before I head out your way in a couple of days. Are you? [00:03:57] Craig: to see you got to get over this cold. [00:03:59] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm actually hoping to see a lot of or at least a few of our listeners as well. We got Seattle coming up. [00:04:07] Craig: Yeah, that's a good place to start. Yeah, so we're, we're getting we're both of us are going to be at Seattle this year, which is exciting. I think we did sea Otter together two years ago. That's on, [00:04:16] Randall: Two or three years ago. Yeah. Whenever you know, and that, that, that innocent pre COVID era [00:04:23] Craig: That's [00:04:23] Randall: when I was still living in the bay area. [00:04:26] Craig: For the listener that may not be in the region or may not have heard of seawater. It's actually an event that's been going on in the Monterey bay peninsula area since 1991 mountain bike started out at because a mountain bike festival had added on road racing criteriums. They had a cyclocross race at one point observed trials. Like you name it. If it's done on two wheels, they've been doing it at the sea Otter classic for you. [00:04:53] Randall: it's also, become I believe the, the most important trade show in north America with the, you know, with the folding of the M oh, Interbike. Yeah. And in fact I've always felt that it was a much more enjoyable experience than Interbike because you have this kind of festival environment. So people are there. You have general audience general riders who were there to participate in the events and to, you know, meet up with each other and to walk around and see the booze and so much more you know, rider friendly and so on. So I'm excited to get out there. it's been a long time. [00:05:23] Craig: it's also really interesting to me to see the merging of all the different cycling cultures, because you've got a big downhill contingent and dual slalom contingent with their slam seats and 10 inch travel bikes and full face helmets. And then you've got like the Legion criterium squad rolling around doing the CRA you know, the circuit. [00:05:44] Randall: Yeah. and I, I'm not sure. I would imagine the, the UCI cross-country race is still going on there. That was the only time I ever lied up at a, at a UCI level race, which was a cool experience. So you get to see some of the international level pros. [00:05:58] Craig: Yep. Yeah. And it's it's right at the Laguna Saker Raceway. So it, some of the, I think a lot of the courses finish on the car racing, motorcycle racing track, which is kind of a cool. [00:06:09] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:10] Craig: Yeah. And this year they've added this is the kickoff of the lifetime grand Prix, which is a six or eight race series with a $250,000 prize. So I know a lot of professional athletes are sort of jazzed and keying in on this, and it's a, don't need to get into the series and I'll get someone from lifetime on to talk about it. If you haven't heard about it already. But what's interesting to me is they're doing mountain bike racing and gravel racing as part of the same series. So it's really, I, in my mind, ideally pushing athletes to have capabilities in both domains. [00:06:45] Randall: I mean, there does seem to be a very natural kind of merging of these two disciplines in that gravel bikes have gotten evermore capable. And cross-country bikes have actually gotten radically more capable to we've transitioned to down country. Cross country courses have gotten more technical. And so, you know, everything is kind of shifting a little bit. I certainly love the, the Mo the underbite mountain bike experience on the gravel bike. [00:07:07] Craig: they haven't made this rule, but I would kind of love it if they force the athletes to race one bike. So pick your poison, gravel bike on the CrossCountry courses, cross country bike on the gravel courses. You got to decide at the beginning of the season. [00:07:22] Randall: I mean, honestly, I remember I've done seawater twice and I remember one year they had the long course and on the long course, it was only one section that I recall. Even really requiring suspension. And so if I had had a gravel bike at the time, I probably would have crushed it. Everyone was riding flat bar, you know, suspended mountain bikes. And there was this one kind of breaking bump challengers section that I recall. And then the other year they had it such that it went through Laguna Saika like five or six times. They were trying to make it very spectator friendly. And in that case even more so, cause there's just, you know, you're spending so much time on the road that whatever time you lose on that, Slightly Chandra resection. You're more than making up for. [00:08:04] Craig: Yeah, that might've been my jam as well. Cause my Achilles heel was always climbing. I could never climb with the best of them. I'm a decent descender. So yeah, the gravel bike probably would have helped me stay closer to the front of those races. [00:08:16] Randall: so, and you're going to be doing the, the NV sponsored gravel ride on Saturday, right? [00:08:21] Craig: Yeah on Saturday. Yeah. So there's a couple for anybody in attendance. There's a few gravel like casual gravel rides, and there's also a gravel event on Sunday. So definitely bring your bike and enjoy some of that gravel. [00:08:36] Randall: So let's talk about the event that we're getting together. [00:08:39] Craig: Yeah. So we're excited. Yeah. We're going to get together the ridership community and the gravel ride podcast community and the thesis by community, along with our friends over at scratch. So scratch has got a booth and we'll get we'll. We're meeting up over there at 3:00 PM on Saturday, April 9th. [00:08:57] Randall: We'll probably be hanging out there for awhile. So if you can't get there right at three definitely stop by later the day, but we'll have some, some beverages, some music we'll have some special guests, a few athletes. The famed rice cake maker Allen Lim he was on the podcast before, [00:09:11] Craig: That's right. Dr. Alan Lamb, one of his threads of fame is rice cake cooker. [00:09:16] Randall: I think he also has been involved in training some, some elite athletes and he might've started scratch as well, but definitely rice cake makers probably is his biggest claim to fame there. And then we'll have a raffle and an exciting product line. Which I'll just leave it at that. At this point. Anyone who's in the ridership will probably know what I'm talking about here. Cause I've dropped a few hints there. But it'll be really excited to get the, do the first pre-launch reveal of this new line that we've been working on for some time. [00:09:42] Craig: Yeah, I'm excited for you to talk about that publicly as someone who's sort of been in the background, just hearing whispers of what you're doing, and then starting to hear more specifics from you directly. It's super exciting. And like, I appreciate how much you put into the space and how. I thought you put into these products that you bring to the world. [00:10:01] Randall: Thanks bud. Yeah. and I definitely feel grateful to have kind of the one, like the supportive a community. They provided an immense amount of very useful feedback in, in the development and validation process. And then also just really great team and business partners. And so on that we've been co-developing this with so more on this in future episodes. We'll do a one-on-one episode where we nerd out about how things are developed. But Yeah. come visit us at three o'clock on Saturday at the scratch labs with [00:10:29] Craig: Super excited to run into any listeners and ridership members out there really like it's I feel like it's been a long time coming for us to do a little get together and hopefully if trends continue, we can start doing some of the ridership group rides around the world. [00:10:44] Randall: Exactly. Yeah I'll be starting some in the new England area and I'm looking forward to flying out again to the bay area, to do a big event with you. Maybe sometime. [00:10:53] Craig: Yeah, that [00:10:53] Randall: Right around Mount mountain, where we used to ride together so much. [00:10:56] Craig: A hundred percent. So the last episode in the dirt, we were talking very specifically about a new custom bike project that I've been working on for the listener. Just to bring you up to speed. I got to fit in January and it's just started to highlight some of the things. Some of the challenges I've been having with my boss. In riding the bike, and this is not something new I've I sort of experienced this early on in my cycling career. And at one point I had a custom Brent Steelman road bike made for me. He's a pretty storied Northern California builder, probably best known for his cyclocross work. But anyway, I had the custom bike experience, but it was, it was kind of. At that time, the one thing that nagged me and I realize now that this is sort of not the right way to even be thinking about this particular problem, but every road bike I ever got in front of what's a 56, 56. So 56 CT of 56, top two. And the one thing that felt to me like it didn't fit well. Was that 56 top tube. So I said, Do whatever you want. I just want a 55 centimeter talked to, and it did solve the problem to a degree, but it wasn't really the solution to the problem, but it did feel amazing to get on that bike for the first time. [00:12:12] Randall: When you also kind of hearkening back to the days when, when we talked about, you know, seat tubes and top tubes as a primary you know, driver of, of frame fit, because they were always coming in at roughly the same angles versus nowadays they're coming in at all different sorts of angles with compact geos and so on. So, but the gist of like your bike was too long, you're, you're a pretty leggy guy. [00:12:34] Craig: So that's, that's really interesting. You say that. So was it not, not the fact that I'm a lucky guy and thanks for noticing that, but more about the sort of, are you saying the story of that geometry back in that era or where the tubes were coming in there just wasn't a lot of variability. So the concepts of stack and reach weren't necessarily in bike design for an Acular. [00:12:56] Randall: Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So you'd generally the top tube would be, you know, relatively. And then, you know, at some point you started seeing more compact geos where that top tube is sloped and that had various various benefits in terms of stand over height and you know, potentially, you know, frame stiffness and so on. But it also meant that, you know, your seat tube and your top tube were not really particularly good proxies for how the bike would fit. And so we need a new proxy and that's where stacking reach came into play. [00:13:22] Craig: Okay. Yeah. And I mean, you can imagine like, obviously like with mountain bikes, having super slipping top tubes and all kinds of things like that, but stacking reach, like you had to come up with some sort of measurement that people could hang their hat on. [00:13:35] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So with the bike that, where we've designed for you now, I mean, you have, remind me you're just 5, 9, 5, 10. [00:13:44] Craig: Yeah. Just five, nine and a half. [00:13:46] Randall: Five nine and a half, and I'm five 11 and you and I run the same satellite and I run a pretty high and forward satellite too. And so you were on the medium our, our medium, I ride our, our large OB one. And one of the things that you, that, you know, I always noticed with you is you always had your, your stem. As high as possible and flipped upward and so on. And so this new build is going to really address, you know, first and foremost is stack issues. You've won a higher bar for some time. [00:14:13] Craig: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that, that was the most sort of visceral. The thing I had after this fit. And it's something that was very, it was known to me and my body. Like I've, I've lost flexibility. I never had a ton of flexibility. And the fitter said, well, you've, you know, the position of your saddle height versus your bar height is that of a pro tour road cyclist. And I had this like, The eight millimeter drop or something, and he's like, we really want to get you more around four. So it was, it was interesting. And I encourage people to go back to episode 28, if you're interested. And I don't purport to believe that you care about my personal fit, but I'm trying to eat this out with Randall and both these two episodes, just to give the listener something to think about as they go forward in their cycling career, because there's, there's tons of things you can do around your existing bike to modify them. I came to some limitations because I'd already configured my thesis. I'd already cut the steer to buy the fork. I couldn't bring the bars up any further unless I had an obnoxious, jacked up stem. So I came to the conclusion. Hey, given this opportunity, why don't we, why don't I look at fabricating a bike specific to my needs? So we had episode 28, which is the last in the dirt episode, and we talked a little bit about bike geo calculator, and it was pretty easy. Like it's a great tool. And I saw lines where the new frame would be an and I looked at that, that stack height and the higher head tube, and I was like, great, this is going to fit. But then as we worked with the building, And got into CAD. There was all these things that have just taken a lot of time to muddle through. And part of it is fabricating with metal versus carbon. Part of it is like things that, all things aren't equal. You really have to think about what, what is your north star in the fit and work around that versus what is any particular tube length or dimension? [00:16:12] Randall: And then you have parts availability, right? So you want to achieve something, but the, you can't find a part that allows you to achieve it, even though it exists, it doesn't exist in the timeframe that you need it. [00:16:22] Craig: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. So I mean, a couple of the areas we've been keying in on, I mentioned, I think in the last episode, like I had this desire to be able to accommodate as big attire as possible. But then when, when you talk about the practicality of welding, the rear end, all of a sudden, a bunch of things come into play because you can have a really long stay to accommodate that. But I didn't really want a really long stay. I've been pretty darn comfortable on my last two bikes with a 420 20 millimeter seat stay. And like the idea of going out to 4 45 or something like that, just didn't sit well with me. [00:17:01] Randall: Yeah. For 20 chains day and yeah, and it just makes it so that the, the front end doesn't want to come up as much. It, you know, it slows the handling. It's a longer wheel base. But you know, it's appropriate to go. It can be appropriate to go longer for more of a dirt focus machine versus a, a, a one bike that is also being asked to be a spirited road bike. That's kind of the direction that we went with this thing. [00:17:23] Craig: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Like there comes a decision point in any gravel cyclist's life when you're purchasing a new book. To just think about like, where do you fall on that spectrum? And when I look at the writing, when I look at what I was conceiving of with my thesis, it's like, I want something that's Zippy on the road and super capable off-road, but can kind of slot that ground between. But the reality is, you know, my writing is 95% off road. [00:17:52] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you already have a thesis that you're you've. So this isn't adding to your stable. [00:17:59] Craig: Exactly the thesis isn't going anywhere. So while this bike may, the new bike may rarely get road tires on it. The thesis will have both road. And I still think that thesis is an amazing, like race, bike, and it's been so good for me. It's so capable. I'm excited to have, I mean, it's just an absolute luxury to be able to have two bikes and like in the garage, [00:18:19] Randall: Yeah. but the, the added capability of this new machine is, is definitely going to be you know, meaningful like that extra tire clearance. So maybe we start there. So this tire clearance for like full tire clearance. So at least six millimeters all around for 60, 50 by two points. Front and rear, and you could probably squeeze something a little bit bigger upfront. We were fortunate in that we were able to find a fork that had the offset that we wanted specifically. We reached out to dry broom and over it open cycle and he had some U-turn forks kicking around. So that's a 50 mil offset and also a 3 95 axle, the crown. So just throwing numbers out there. What does this mean, Zack? So the CR offset is. Basically the distance from the axle from the, the line that goes through the steer tube. So it's going to be offset, you know, the axle is offset forward from that, and more offset is going to make the steering more responsive, but it's also going to increase your, your front center, the bottom bracket to the front axle to reduce risk of total. And that was, that was a concern, given that your you're wanting a shorter bike, that's fitting bigger 700 seat tires. [00:19:32] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And it also, so that does wheelbase come into play with those dimensions as well? The overall wheel base. [00:19:38] Randall: Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, the, the well, so with the offset, so we had the increased offset which. With the same head angle, as you increase offset, it's going to decrease trail and you know, the, the less trail you have, the snappier, the handling is that in turn allowed us to slack it out the head angle a little bit without radically slowing down the handling. So we went from a 72 degree head angle on your thesis, which is more of a, like an endurance road in a more kind of racy. Gravel front-end to a 71.2, which is still actually on the sportier side especially for this new class of gravel bikes that have seemingly gone towards, you know, even slacker even longer. And overall we got the, the front center up, you know, 18 millimeters. And so those. Taller 700 C tires that you might run are not going to be an, an issue for you in terms of tow overlap. You're also going with 2.5 millimeter shorter cranks, which helps as well. And that, that opened up another opportunity with the bottom bracket height. [00:20:42] Craig: Yeah. So before we get into BB height, you know, it was interesting. Really digging into the forks situation. Again, a lot of times you're bike. Well, all the time your bike comes with a fork and you don't really think about all these things, but once we were looking at, Hey, what fork partner can we bring into the mix? All of a sudden, a lot of variables came into play in terms of like the rake of the bike or the rank of the fork, like all of these different things. We started having to consider. And what was the effect on tau overlap? What was the effect on like what ties size tire are they designed on accommodating? So is it really like, I don't know, a sink of like a week to figure out a, what do we want? And B who actually manufacturers a fork that has those correct dementia. [00:21:29] Randall: And that we can get in a reasonable timeframe. [00:21:31] Craig: yeah. And then to, to further that, you know, everybody knows I'm suspension curious, I've got one bike in the garage right now with the front suspension fork on it, from my friends at RockShox. And I do imagine playing around with that, on this bike, but as we've spoken about previously, probably in an, in the dirt episode, and certainly when I dug into it with our friends at rock shock and Schramm, you know, if you put one of these suspension forks on the bike, it's going to bring the entire bike up because that 30 to 40 millimeters of travel has got to come from somewhere. So we had to think through, okay, if we have a 3 95 axle, the crown length of the rigid. What happens when that's four 20. [00:22:14] Randall: Yeah. Or 4 25 in the case of the RockShox fork. And then they have two different offsets. And what we came to is, well, You know, that 30 millimeter of difference means that your front end is going to come up. Right. And so to get the same exact position, you'd have to, you know, shift your saddle forward and you would have to, you know, adjust your stem height and so on. Or you could just make it so that you know, your, your position. In with the rigid fork is a little bit more aggressive. And then you're just, you know, allowing that, that slightly more you know, lean back position, slightly more upright position when you have the fork and in terms of the handling characteristics and so on, they actually change the position. Characteristics change in a way that is appropriate for a bike, with the added capability of a short travel suspension fork. And so it's, it's kind of, you know, not really a problem. And we ha we don't have a, an adjustable suspension, sorry. We don't have an adjustable geometry with that rigid fork, which is something I'm a big fan of, but we're getting adjustable geo with the swapping of the forks in your case. And we designed accordingly. [00:23:20] Craig: Yeah, it's super interesting. And going back to my conversation with Chris Mandel from SRE. He said the same thing. Like it was, it was really early on. They had literally just launched that FOC that fork. And I was able to spend some time on it before the launch. And he said, you know, I put this on a bike that wasn't specifically geo corrected, but I felt like it was okay. He's like I've spent months and months and months on this thing. And it just modified the geometry in a way that made sense for the new way that I was going to be riding the bike with a suspension for. [00:23:52] Randall: Yeah. And you know, you, it is useful if you're considering adding a suspension fork to your existing bike, to say, throw it, throw it in a tool like bike geo calc. So take your current geometry for your bike and put it into that, that tool and then set the settings so that the frame rotates when you change the axle, the crown and it'll tell you how the other parameters change and that can also inf not only inform you in terms of how. How the geo would change, but then also how the handling might change, which would help you decide, say what fork offset you want, because you know, RockShox offers two different offsets on those forks. [00:24:27] Craig: Yep. Yeah. And I'll have plenty of room on the steer tube, as well as the ability to flip my stem, to make adjustments accommodating that, to get the position. Right. And again, just make, make that, that Delta between 3 95 and 4 25. Feel the slider than it actually is. [00:24:48] Randall: Well, and it's, it's small enough where I do think that it's quite likely that you can get a slightly more aggressive, but still upright position with a rigid fork and then a slightly less aggressive, more upright position with the suspension fork that, you know, feels good in both of those different applications and feels appropriate for those. So I don't suspect that you're going it's. I don't think it's highly likely that you're going to need to move around much. And this actually gets into a conversation I'm looking forward to having with Lee McCormick at some point when we bring them on the podcast, which is, you know, talking about how, you know, we've talked about stack and reach and how these are really important measurements for determining fit. But it in turn in as a rider, like the big thing that matters is like the distance from your crank spindle to where your hand. And then you have an, you know, an anchor, so that high pot news between, you know, the, the stack figure to the grips and the reach figure to the grips, the high pot news is actually the, the, the pure number. And then the angle associated with that that high pot news. But that, that the length of that hypotony is actually shouldn't change from bike to bike. So whether it's a road bike or a mountain biker, so on, it should be consistent. And then it's the angle of that that. From bike to bike. And so if you think about, you know, the front end coming up well, that, that, that distance is staying the same. It's just the angle. That's increasing a little bit. [00:26:08] Craig: Right. Yep. Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, I love, I love most of my bikes are set up identically, so that basically, if I have my eyes closed, I know exactly where to fall and hit the bar. And it's so great that my like mountain bike and rode by can feel like that same position. [00:26:25] Randall: Yeah. Yeah. And even better, if you can get, say the same crank lengths on the bikes, the same, you know, pedal positioning, you know, stance in the, like on the bikes. [00:26:35] Craig: Yeah. I'm sure I'm a little bit a field from that, but this is the most bike geekery by the way that I've ever gone through. And it's, I mean, part of it's been driving me mad cause I really want to consummate this Ram and say the design's done. And I do think like if, if we're not at the finish line today, we're in the, we're in the final sprint, we've seen the and where we're coming to the finish line. Thank God. But a couple of other things I wanted to just quiz you on before we get to that point. So there was also the question about BB drop and it was another one that was like BB drop. I've never thought about that. Just allowed the frame of the production frame, builder to think about that. But now that we have to consider it and we could do whatever we wanted, let's talk about the movement on that. And what's the rationale and just, what's the takeaway for the listener at Ron BB drop. [00:27:28] Randall: Yeah. So Bebe, you can think of BB drop as you have the, the vertical distance between the height of the axles and the height of the bottom bracket. The center of the bottom bracket spindle. So the bottom bracket spindle is going to be below the two axles, right? And the greater the more below the two axles it is you know, ceteris paribus, the more stable the bike is going to be the more sitting into the bike. You're going to be. [00:27:54] Craig: to sort of visualize that if I'm, if I'm sort of the listener and I'm thinking about my bike, I've got my two axles on my wheels. And I'm thinking about how far below that axle line, the bottom bracket sits. [00:28:06] Randall: Exactly. Exactly. And So, with like old schools, cyclocross geometries, the bottom, the BB drop tended to be pretty high, you know, 65 versus a, you know, your thesis will be one to 73. And your OB one only accommodates up to a 700 by 40 tire, but it's really optimized around 700 by 30 and 60 50 by 47, which is like a 700 by 28. And so, you know, it's, there's, it's you get more stability, but there's greater risk of pedal strikes as you drop the baby. Now with your new bike, you know, we started with your, your thesis as like a starting point. Cause he really liked that geometry and we saw, well, you're going to be optimizing this bike for running with bigger and thus taller tires, a bigger radius from the center of the, the axle to the outside of the tire. And so you can you can drop the BB further and get that added stability without increasing risk of pedal strikes. And in fact we also went with a 2.5 millimeters shorter crank. And so you're actually going to have more clearance above the ground with those bigger tires, even though we dropped the BB down to improve stability. So you know, that that was kind of a very natural thing. And you see this trend in general on this newer slate of gravel bikes that are being optimized for higher volume 700 tires versus the more one bike type bikes like the thesis or the the Sabelo Sparrow. That are designed to be used effectively with road, you know, seven up to 700 by 30, which is, you know, a smaller radius [00:29:37] Craig: So, does it feel like you're sort of sitting more in the bike when you have more BB drop? [00:29:42] Randall: exactly. Versus on top of it. [00:29:44] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you were saying about cyclocross bikes having a 65 millimeter drop, presumably that's because they're doing a lot of things that require clearance, bunny hopping barriers and things like that. [00:29:57] Randall: Yeah. Concerns about, you know, pedal strikes, essentially as they're going over different obstacles though, even those bikes with the advent of gravel, you've seen those bottom brackets come down because there's no reason. I mean, I would argue there's no reason to have a dedicated cyclocross bike, unless you're, I mean, even if you're an elite cyclocross athlete, you can still ride on take this specialized crux as an example, that bike fits six 50 by 40. Right. So it's not constrained to the 700 by what, 33, that the UCI maxes out cyclocross tires for. So even that bike is, is, is really a gravel bike that, that people are, are using in that discipline. So it doesn't need a dedicated bike anymore. So those are the days of high bottom brackets is have thankfully gone away [00:30:45] Craig: Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yep. Certainly no reason for the average athlete to own a dedicated cyclocross bike. If you've got a gravel bike in the closet, [00:30:53] Randall: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:30:55] Craig: the other thing we had to consider was just cable routing as well. And again, this is like, Maybe on a carbon bike, you make a couple ports and you know how to seal them pretty easily. And if you use them, you use them. If you don't, you don't. But when you're talking about a metal bike, all of a sudden you you've got okay, either I'm going to externally route everything, which I don't like the look of, and that seems old school, or I'm going to actually have to drill and sort of weld holes into various parts of the frame. And that was again, Another consideration. Well, what, what am I going to do? Am I going to commit to wireless? Which is like a very viable option these days? Or am I going to get, you know, have four different ports drilled into this frame? And I opted to go the wireless route. [00:31:44] Randall: Yeah. And I think that that was a smart way to go. The, you know, especially if you're already going the, you already kind of, unless you're going to do external cabling, internal cabling on say like a steel or titanium bike. Is going to be such that, like, you're going to have some sharp angles going through the frame, especially, you know, where that down tube is meeting the bottom bracket shell, you know, you don't have these big, these big tubes and these big open spaces, like you can mold into a carbon frame. And so there's going to be sharp angles. There's going to be sharp surfaces that need to be machined. It's just harder to do. It's really hard to do good, clean mechanical routing internally through a metal frame, unless it's say something like a specialized, smart weld aluminum frame where they're hydro-forming those, those tubes to get a more carbon shape. [00:32:35] Craig: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And when you consider adding in, which was a necessity for me, a dropper post yet another whole, yet more routing. So yeah, I'm committing to going full wireless, including the dropper. On this bike. So I'll, I'll just have the rear brake cable routed through the frame and that's it. [00:32:54] Randall: Yeah. I think too, that's going to, I mean, given that this is your adventure bike it's just that much less to deal with as well when you're taking the bike apart to throw in your case to bring on a plane. So I think that wireless can make sense. Just bring an extra battery. [00:33:09] Craig: Yeah, a hundred percent. My my contact at SRAM, I went riding with him on Tam gosh, probably four or five months ago at this point. And his battery ran out, but he keeps a spare in his seat bag. [00:33:23] Randall: Yeah. And if you're going with a one by set up too, like you have those two coin cells, which are very lightweight and the leavers. So if one of them dies, he still got the other one. You could swap it over. [00:33:32] Craig: Yeah. Yeah. The cool thing about their RockShox C posts is that you can steal the battery pack from there and use it in your derailer if you need to, because they're all, they're all changeable not to, not to have [00:33:44] Randall: they have to make, well, then you have to make the difficult decision of like, do I care about gearing or the dropper post more? I guess it depends on the terrain. There are some cases where I would, I would sacrifice the derail, your battery to keep the dropper post going. [00:33:57] Craig: Yeah. who knows if I was at the top of Tam, you know, if I was riding up, switch the battery to have gears on the way up and then switch it to the dropper on the way to. [00:34:06] Randall: Yeah. [00:34:09] Craig: I love it. You just made me think about, I literally just packed my thesis in my post carry bag for an air flight tomorrow. And there's always a little bit of Jenga with the cables to kind of move everything around and get it in their bag. So well-designed and fortunately with my these medium thesis, I can just slam the seat. I don't even have to take the seed out and get it all in that bag. Hopefully continue to allude all airline fee. [00:34:36] Randall: Excellent. I'm [00:34:38] Craig: you for walking me. Yeah, no, I think we've covered a good deal about the frame between this episode and the last episode. And again, I hope this conversation gives you a little bit of inside baseball about how frames are designed. If. Looking to get accustomed frame done. It's important to have a builder who's willing to work with you. And in my case, just being someone who's just not in the weeds on all these minute dimensions and angles, just someone who's patient and will walk you through what needs to be done. I'm lucky to have both the builder and Randall to help me out. [00:35:13] Randall: Yeah, it's it definitely you know, the value of working with a good bow builder in, in significant part comes on the front end and really trying to dial exactly what you want and, And you know, having that output down the other end. So. [00:35:28] Craig: as I, as I think about your journey with thesis and the idea of designing, was it five frame sizes? [00:35:35] Randall: Well, so in our case, we went with we went with an open, we went with an open mold frame and then made modifications from there. So we use the existing tooling. So we were fortunate to be able to find a frame with, you know, the vast majority of the features we wanted and the exact geometry we wanted. And then we added the features and reinforcements from there. So with the next gen frame beginning development of this is this is a ways out that'll be a full ground up exercise. [00:36:03] Craig: Yeah. it's just, I imagine it's so challenging to sort of figure out the sizes. Obviously you're matching what the market trends are in terms of how the bikes are performing and what they're intended for, but just like the basics around stack and reach to try to find those sweet spots, to make sure with the limited amount of customability customizability, I E you know, you're stem lab. The your stack above the head tube making that fit as many people as possible. It's just seems to be a challenge. [00:36:35] Randall: Yeah, And it's, it's even more so with a material like carbon where you're, you know, essentially you're, you're creating these molds that are quite expensive. And then that's set in stone. If you want to evolve your metal, a tube to tube constructed frames, geometry over time. You know that that's it. You just change the jig and you change the mitering specifications and you're good to go. Carbon it's a whole new tool, so you better get it right out the gate. [00:37:01] Craig: so true. Well, thanks for all the time, my friend, this coming weekend, hopefully I know I'll be seeing you and hopefully we'll be seeing a bunch of listeners over there at at [00:37:11] Randall: sea Otter three o'clock on Saturday at the scratch labs booth. [00:37:15] Craig: Yeah, we'll see you there. [00:37:17] Randall: All right. Hope to see some folks there. [00:37:19] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of in the dirt, from the gravel ride podcast. Thank you for spending a little bit of your week with us. If you're going to be at CR definitely come find us at the scratch labs booth at 3:00 PM on Saturday. Huge. Thanks to thera body for sponsoring this episode, please visit thera body.com/the gravel ride for that special offer around the recovery air.Jet boots. If you have any feedback for Randall or myself, feel free to visit us at the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. And if you're interested in supporting the podcast, please head over to buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels

Episode 101 - MTB Tradeshows Explained

The Pinkbike Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 27, 2022 81:04

Always wanted to go to a tradeshow? We explain how Interbike, Eurobike, Sea Otter, and the Taipei Cycle Show work and what it's like to attend them.

Craig Calfee - Bicycle Industry pioneer

consumer cycling better faster one tree coach patrick interbike

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 11, 2022 70:45

This week Randall sits down with bicycle industry pioneer, Craig Calfee. Craig has been an industry leader for decades with his work on the Calfee brand and many other collaborations throughout the industry. You cannot find someone more knowledgable about carbon (or bamboo) as a material. Calfee Designs Website Join The Ridership Support the Podcast Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Craig Calfee Randall [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Randall: Welcome to the gravel ride podcast. I'm your host Randall Jacobs and our guest today is Craig Calfee. Craig is the founder of Calfee Design, the innovator behind the first full carbon frames to race in the tour de France, the originator of numerous technologies adopted throughout the cycling industry, and on a personal note has been a generous and consistent supporter of my own entrepreneurial journey. I am grateful to have him as a friend, and I've been looking forward to this conversation for some time. So with that, Craig, Calfee welcome to the podcast. [00:00:32] Craig Calfee: Oh, thank you. Nice to be here. [00:00:34] Randall: So, let's start with, what's your background, give your own story in your own words. [00:00:40] Craig Calfee: Well, I've always written bikes. I mean, as a kid, that's how I got around. And that's, as you become an older child, you, uh, find your independence with moving about the world. And a bicycle of course, is the most efficient way to do that. And later on, I was a bike messenger in New York when I went to college and that kind of got me into bike design as much for the, uh, desire to make a bike that can withstand a lot of abuse. And later on, I used a bike for commuting to work at a job, building carbon fiber racing boats. And during that time I crashed my bike and needed a new frame. So I thought I'd make a frame at a carbon fiber, uh, tubing that I had been making at my. [00:01:29] Randall: my job [00:01:30] Craig Calfee: So this is back in 1987, by the way. So there wasn't a, there were no YouTube videos on how to make your own carbon bike. So I pretty much had to invent a way to build the bike out of this tubing. And at the time there were aluminum lugged bikes, and I just, I knew already aluminum and carbon fiber don't get along very well. So you have to really do a lot of things to, to accommodate that. And the existing bikes at the time were, uh, I would say experimental in the fact that they were just trying to glue aluminum to carbon and it really wasn't working. [00:02:05] So I came up with my own way and built my first bike and it turned out really well. And a lot of friends and, and bike racers who checked out the bikes that I I really should keep going with it. So I felt like I discovered carbon fiber as a, as the perfect bicycle material before anyone else. Uh, and actually, uh, right at that time, Kestrel came out with their first bike, uh, the K 1000 or something. Um, anyway that was uh, that was in 87, 88. And, uh, I felt like I should really, you know give it a go. So I moved out to California and started a bike company. [00:02:48] Randall: So just to be clear, you were actually making the tubes, you weren't buying tubes. So you're making the tubes out of the raw carbon or some pre-printed carbon. then you came up with your own way of, uh, joining those tubes. [00:03:01] Craig Calfee: Yeah. I worked on a braiding machine, so it was actually a a hundred year old, uh, shoelace braider, uh, from back in Massachusetts. There's a lot of old textile machinery braiding is, uh, you know, your braided socks and, you know, nylon rope is braided. So this is a 72 carrier braider, which means 72 spools of carbon fiber. [00:03:25] Are winding in and out braiding this tube and you just run it back and forth through this braider a few times. And now you have a thick enough wall to, uh, I developed a and tape wrapping method at that job and came up with a pretty decent way to make a bicycle tube. So that was kind of the beginning of that. [00:03:47] Uh, and since then I've explored all kinds of methods for making tubing, mainly through subcontractors who specialize in things like filament winding and roll wrapping. And, uh, pultrusion, you know, all kinds of ways to make tubing. And that does relate to kind of an inspiration for me, where I realized that, uh, carbon fiber, you know, high performance composites are relatively young and new in the world of technology where metals are, you know, the metals have been around since the bronze age. [00:04:21] I mean, literally 5,000 years of development happened with metals, carbon fiber, uh, high-performance composites have only really been around since world war two. So that's a huge gap in development that hasn't happened with composites. So that to me felt like, oh, there's some job security for a guy who likes to invent things. So that was my, a kind of full force to get me to really focus on composite materials. [00:04:51] Randall: Were you that insightful in terms of the historical context at the time, or is that kind of a retro or retrospective reflection? [00:04:58] Craig Calfee: I think, I don't know. I think I may have read about that. Um, I a friend who had a library card at MIT and I pretty much lived there for a few weeks every, uh, master's thesis and PhD thesis on bicycles that they had in their library. And I think somewhere in there was a, uh, a topic on composites and comparing the technology of composites. [00:05:23] So. I probably that from some reading I did, or maybe I did invent that out of thin air. I don't remember, uh, nonetheless, uh, the fact of it is, you know, not, not a whole lot of mental energy has been put into coming up with ways of processing fiber and resin compared to metal. So to me that just opens up a wide world of, of innovation. [00:05:49] Randall: Um, and so the first frame was that, um, you're creating essentially uniform tubes and then mitering them, joining them, wrapping them as you do with your current bamboo frames or what was happening there. [00:06:02] Craig Calfee: Uh, it's more like the, uh, our, our carbon fiber frames were laminating carbon fabric in metal dyes, and those are not mitered tubes fitting into the dyes. And that's, that's a process. I got my first patent on. And it, uh, so in the process of compressing the carbon fabric against the tubes, you're you end up with these gussets in what is traditionally the parting line of a mold and rather than trim them off completely. [00:06:31] I, I use them as reinforcing ribs. [00:06:35] Randall: Yep. Okay. So that explains the, the, that distinctive element that continues with your, um, some of your, uh, to tube, uh, currently [00:06:48] Craig Calfee: them [00:06:49] the hand wrapping technique from that you currently see on the bamboo bikes came from developing a tandem frame, or basically a frame whose production numbers don't justify the tooling costs. Um, so that's hand wrapped. That's just literally lashed to. Yeah. And a point of note, there is I was a boy scout growing up and, uh, there's this merit badge called pioneering merit badge. [00:07:16] And I really enjoyed pioneering merit badge because it involved lashing row, uh, poles together with rope and the pro you had to do with this one project. And I did a tower and it was this enormous structure that went just straight up like a flagpole, but it was it involved a bunch of tetrahedrons, uh, stacked on top of each other and lashed together. [00:07:41] you know, culminating in a pole that went up. I don't remember how tall it was, but it was, it was really impressive. And everybody, you know, thought, wow, this is incredible of poles and some rope. And here we have this massive tower. So anyway, I was into things together since a young age. [00:08:00] And so I immediately came up with the, uh, the last tube concept. Which is where the, now the bamboo bikes are. course there's a specific pattern to the wrapping, but, um, the concept is basically using fiber to lash stuff together, [00:08:16] Randall: When it immediately brings to mind, what's possible with current generation of additive production techniques. Uh, whereas before you could make small components and then lash them together to create structures that otherwise aren't manufacturable. [00:08:31] Now you'd be able to say, print it out though. Those, you know, those printed out materials don't have the performance characteristics of a, you know, a uni directional carbon of the sword that you're working with currently. [00:08:42] Craig Calfee: right? [00:08:43] Randall: Um, so we've gone deep nerd here. We're going to, I'm going to pull us out and say, okay, uh, lots of time for this. [00:08:49] This is going to be a double episode. Uh, so next up, let's talk about those frames, uh, saw their big debut. [00:08:59] Craig Calfee: Yeah. So, um, we started making custom geometry for a. In 1989 and selling them and so big and tall, and that the idea of custom geometry frames was, uh, you know, pretty esoteric. And the pro racers were, we're using a lot of custom frames. So Greg Lamond, uh, was in search of a carbon fiber, uh, custom frame builder in, uh, 1990. [00:09:31] And, uh, no one really was doing it. We were literally the only company making custom carbon frame bikes. So he, uh, found out about us, uh, effectively discovered us, shall we say? And, uh, it didn't take long for him to order up 18 of them for his, his, uh, team Z, uh, teammates. He was sponsoring his own team with a Lamont brand. [00:09:56] So we didn't have to sponsor him. He basically paid for the frame. Put his name on them. And, and, uh, now we're now we're on the defending champions, a tour de France team. So that was a huge break obviously. And it was really a pleasure working with Greg and getting to know the demands of the pro Peloton, uh, you know, that really launched us. [00:10:21] So that was, uh, quite a splash. And, you know, it always is a great answer to the question. Oh, so who rides your bike kind of thing. you know, you have the, the full-on best one in the world at the time. So, so that was a fun thing. [00:10:39] Randall: And the name of the company at the time was, [00:10:41] Craig Calfee: Uh, carbon frames. [00:10:42] Randall: yeah. So anyone wanting [00:10:45] dig up the historical record, [00:10:47] Craig Calfee: is this too generic? You know, the other to what you're talking about, the adventure bikes. Yeah, we had to stop. I mean, carbon frames is a terrible name because everyone started talking about all carbon fiber frames as carbon frames. So we thought that was cool, you know, like Kleenex, you know, uh, and then we came up with the adventure bike, you know, with very early, uh, adventure bike. [00:11:11] And it was just, we called it the adventure bike. And now there's a classification called adventure bikes that, you know, so, um, I think we, we, we went too generic on how we named our models. [00:11:26] Randall: I've drawn from the rich tradition, a tradition of Greek, you know, uh, philosophy for naming my own companies in the like, [00:11:35] Craig Calfee: Yeah. [00:11:36] Randall: uh, um, and then next up, uh, so you've worked with Greg Lamond on those frames. Carbon frames is up and running and you're, you're producing custom geo frames and you're starting to get at some scale at this point and some notoriety. [00:11:52] next up you were working on your bamboo bikes. When we talk about that [00:11:57] Craig Calfee: Yeah, that was say, I'm kind of at the, at the time, it was just a way to get publicity. So at the Interbike trade show, you'd have a few creative people making some wacky bikes out of beer cans or, or other just weird things just to get attention, just, just to send the media over to your booth, to take a picture of some wacky thing that you're doing. [00:12:20] yeah, we got to do something like that to get, get some attention. And the, uh, so I was looking around for some PVC pipe. Maybe I was going to do a PVC pipe bike, and I wasn't really sure, but I knew that we could just wrap any tube. Make a bike out of literally anything. So, um, my dog was playing with some bamboo behind the shop. [00:12:42] Uh, she was a stick dog, so she loved to clamp onto a stick and you could swing her around by the, by the sticks. She's a pit bull and lab mix. Anyway, we ran out of sticks. Uh, cause we only had one little tree in the back, but we did have some bamboos. So she came up with a piece of bamboo and I was her around by it, expecting it to break off in her mouth because I just wasn't aware of how strong bamboo was, but it turned out it was really quite strong. [00:13:12] And I said, oh, let's make a bike out of this stuff. And sure enough, uh, the bike was, uh, quite a attention getter. It got the quarter page and bicycling magazine so that, you know mission accomplished on that front. And, but the bike itself rode really well. [00:13:29] Randall: well [00:13:30] Craig Calfee: Um, when I wrote my first carbon bike, uh, the very first ride on my very first carbon bike, I was struck by how smooth it was. [00:13:38] It had this vibration damping that was, you know, just super noticeable and, and that really kind of lit a fire under my butt thinking, wow, this is really cool. When I built my first bamboo bike, I had that same feeling again, how smooth It was It was amazing for its vibration damping. So, uh, I knew I was onto something at that point. [00:14:02] Uh, that first bike was a little too flexy, but, uh, the second bike I built was significantly stiffer and was an actual, real rideable bike. So, uh, from that point, uh, we just started building a few here and there and it was still a novelty item until about, uh, 1999, 2000. When a few people who had been riding them, or like, I want another one, I I want to know mountain bike this time. [00:14:29] So as it was just starting to get known and, uh, we started selling them through dealers. And I mean there's a lot of stories I can tell on how that evolved and how people started actually believing that a bamboo bike could actually exist in the world. So it took a while though. [00:14:49] Randall: I think there's a whole thread that we could tug on maybe in a subsequent episode where we focus just on the bamboo bike revolution. [00:14:57] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Yeah. That's um, there's a lot of, lot of stuff going on there. I'm actually writing my second book on history of the bamboo bike, because there's so many interesting angles to it, particularly in the. [00:15:10] Randall: in Africa [00:15:12] I'm struck by the juxtaposition of this bleeding edge. Uh, you know, high-tech material that you pioneered and then this going back to one of the most basic building materials, uh, that we have building bikes out of that. And in fact, um, on the one hand, there's this, this extreme, know, difference in terms of the technology ization of each material. [00:15:34] But on the other hand, there's a parallel the sense that like carbon, in tubes is best, uh, you know, generally, uh, when it's you need to write. Yeah, with maybe some cross fibers in order to prevent, prevent it from separating. And bamboo also has that characteristic of having, you know, you need directional fibers that are bonded together by some, uh, you know, some other material in, in the, in the bamboo [00:15:58] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Yeah, it's very, there's a lot of similarities. I mean, bamboo is amazing just because it grows out of the ground and tubular for. And it grows a new, huge variety of diameters and wealth thicknesses. So if you're looking for tubing, I mean, you don't have to go much further. It's amazing that it literally grows out of the ground that way. [00:16:20] Randall: paint [00:16:21] a picture for folks to, um, most of our listeners I'm guessing are in north America or, you know, other, uh, English-speaking parts of the world. I lived in China and as you've been, you see huge scaffolding, multi-story, you know, big buildings and the scaffolding isn't made out of metal. [00:16:37] It's made out of bamboo lashed together with zip ties and pieces of wire. So it really speaks to the, the structural, uh, strength of the material and reliability of the material. and you know, should instill confidence when descending down a mountain. [00:16:54] Craig Calfee: Oh yeah. No, it's, I, I remember seeing bamboo and scaffolding many, many years. And I thought, well, of course, and the other reason they use it in scaffolding is when a typhoon hits and it, it kind of messes up the scaffolding of a construction site. Um, it's, they're back to work on the bamboo construction sites, much faster than the metal scaffolding sites, they have to deal with bent and distorted metal scaffolding, um, to replace those and fix that takes a lot longer where bamboo, they just bend it back and lash it back together. [00:17:32] It's it's so much easier. [00:17:35] Randall: there's one more thing on this theme that I want to, uh, pull out before we move on, which is talk to me about the, the sustainability components of it. Um, starting with how it was done initially. [00:17:47] And then now with say like, uh, biodegradable resins or, or other materials I can, this frame can be current. [00:17:55] Craig Calfee: Uh, the short answer is yes, the frame can be composted. And the other cool thing is if you take care of it, it it'll never compost, meaning you can prevent it from being composted naturally. if you really want to, you know, uh, dispose of the frame, um, it will biodegrade much faster than any other material that bicycle frames are made of. [00:18:22] So yeah, the, the renewable aspect, the low energy content of it, it's, it's utterly the best you can imagine. And we're kind of waiting for the world to finally get serious about global warming and start to have some economic incentives for buying products that are in fact, uh, good for the environment. Uh, we haven't seen that yet, but we're kind of holding out and hoping that happens. [00:18:49] And then we'll see probably some significant growth in the bamboo adoption in the bicycling world. [00:18:57] Randall: I want to plant a seed that, that, uh, to germinate in my head, which is this idea of bamboos being the ideal material for kind of more mainstream, uh, utility bicycles and recreational bicycles. really it's a matter of the unit economics in economies of scale and consistency of material, which you could make uniform by having, uh, having controlled grow conditions and things like that. [00:19:23] Um, but it could be a very localized industry to anywhere where bamboo grows. this could be produced, which reduces transportation costs reduces, you know, issues of inventory carrying and all these things. Um, so let's, let's park that I want to ask you more about those, about the economics of bamboo in a side conversation to see if there's, you know, explore there. [00:19:45] Craig Calfee: well, there is. I mean, that's, that's what we did in Africa. Same concept is as why, why would bamboo work in Africa better than the imported bikes from China? So that was, that was the whole thing around that. [00:19:59] Randall: Ah, I love it. All right. So though, there will be a bamboo episode folks. Uh, we're going to, going to continue cause there's a lot of ground to cover here. so next steps you've done done the first carbon frame and the tour de France, uh, carbon frames is up and running. You've started getting into bamboo, what was next, [00:20:18] Craig Calfee: Um, then lots of smaller developments, which become really important to us from a business perspective, uh, fiber tandem, we built the first one of those. And then we went to a lateral list, tandem design, and it's pretty optimized at this point. So we're, I would say we are the leader in the tandem world in terms of the highest performance, tandem bikes, uh, and then re repairing of carbon frames. [00:20:47] That was a big one, uh, which we were kind of pushed into by customers. And other folks who heard that we could repair the Cathy frames and they would set a call up. And literally we had a, an in one inquiry per week, if not more, more often about like a colonoscopy that this guy wanted to repair and he heard we could do it on ours. [00:21:10] And we're like, well, by a Calfee don't, you know, I'm sorry, but we can't repair somebody else's frame. You'll have to buy one of ours. And then you'll know that you crash it, we can repair it for, he was trying to make that a, a a advantage for our brand, but we couldn't really, you know, do that. So, uh, we said, well, if we can't beat them, we'll repair them. [00:21:32] And we repaired a first and then some specialized, I think, after that. So we, we accepted repair jobs and pretty soon it became about a third of our, our business. And it's, uh, of course now lots of other people repair frames, but, uh, we started doing that in 2001 or something and, and we've been doing it ever since. [00:21:58] And it's, that part has been really interesting to see, because we get to literally see the inside of everyone else's frames and look at the weak points. You know, they often show up on, on people's frames and get asked to fix them or even redesign them at that point. So that's been really interesting to, to me as a technician, [00:22:21] Randall: and want to come back to this in a second, but before we lose it, what is a lateralis tandem design? [00:22:27] Craig Calfee: uh, that, so traditional tandems had a, a tube that went the head tube, usually straight back down towards the dropouts or or bottom bottom bracket. And it's, it's a way to stiffen up a frame. That's inherently not very stiffened torsion. But, uh, with composites, you can orient the fiber, uh, in torsion to make a tube significantly stiffer and torsion than say a metal tube of similar weight. [00:22:57] So we were able to go a little bit bigger diameter and more fiber in the helical angled orientation and make a tandem, uh, stiff enough and torsion and get rid of that tube. And for a carbon fiber frame, that it was really important because number of times you have to join the tube, the more expensive it is or the more labor content there is. So we were able to reduce our labor content, make the frame lighter and make it stiffer all at, in one design change. So that was a big, a big revelation. And now I most of them have copied that design. So it's, uh, it's, that's another time where we, we did something that, that, uh, now became the standard. [00:23:43] Randall: Yeah. One of many from what I've observed in a written the history. Uh, so around this time, or shortly after you started the repair business, you started doing some pretty, pretty wild frames in terms of pushing the limits of what was possible when we talk about that. [00:24:01] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Yeah, we did. We've done a lot of different types of frames, uh, mostly for show, but, um, like the north American handmade bike show is a great venue for just doing something way out of left field. Um, we did, uh, a bamboo bike made all out of small diameter, bamboo. Um, it's I only made one because it was a total pain in the ass to make. [00:24:26] Uh, and it was also kind of inspired by the, a request from a guy who was not only a fan of bamboo, but he was a fan of molten style bikes. Those are the trust style frames with small wheels. So we built one of those and. With the only small diameter bamboo, and we built another one that was, uh, a real art piece. [00:24:49] So just having fun with that from a, you know, completely artistic direction is a lot of fun for me because that's my formal training. I went to art school and learned about different materials and, and art and composition. Uh, and I was into the structure of materials and how they, they relate to each other. [00:25:12] And my art was more of a forum file form follows function, kind of inspiration. And, uh, so some bikes that I've made were, are not terribly practical, but just explore the, the limits of structure. So another bike I made, uh, we call it the spider web bike, which was literally a, a bike made of just carbon fiber strands. [00:25:36] No tubes. And it, it was kind of wild looking and a collector ended up buying it, which is really cool. But you look at this thing and you just couldn't imagine that it, it, you could actually ride it, but, uh, it actually does ride fairly well. It's a bit fragile if you crash it, it would be kind of dangerous, but you know, stuff like that. [00:25:55] I like to do that occasionally. [00:25:59] Randall: I think of, uh, like biomorphic design or like hyper optimized design that maybe doesn't have the resiliency, but very strict parameters will perform higher than anything else that you could, you could create. [00:26:12] Craig Calfee: absolutely. Yeah. Those are really fun. I'm really inspired by natural forms and, uh, you know, the, the, some of the new computer aided techniques we're designing are, uh, rattled in those lines. so, yeah, I follow that pretty closely. [00:26:28] Randall: a little sidebar. Um, I don't know if you've, uh, no of, uh, Nick Taylor, the guy who created the, Ibis Maximus in front of the mountain bike hall of fame. [00:26:40] Craig Calfee: Um, no, I don't think so. [00:26:43] Randall: I'll introduce you to his work at some point, but he's another one of these people who, very avid cyclist is not in the bike industry, but is. There's a lot of trail building and alike and isn't is a sculptor really focused on, the form of, uh, you know, biological shapes and materials and, and things of this sort. [00:27:02] Uh, I think that there's a lot, uh, I'm actually curious more into your, your non bike artistic work for a moment. Uh, and, and how that got infused into your work with the bike. [00:27:18] Craig Calfee: yeah, so I haven't done a lot of, you know, just pure, fine art sculpture in a long time. But when I was doing that, it was. a lot of things that would fool the eye or, um, some material and, and push it to its limit. So I was doing stuff that was, um, uh, you know, trying to create a, almost like a physical illusion, not just an optical illusion, but a, but a physical illusion or like, how could you possibly do that kind of thing? [00:27:54] And that was a theme of my sculpture shortly after Pratt. So for example, just take one example of a sculpture that I got a lot of credit for in classes at Pratt, it was a, a big block of Oak. It was a cutoff from a woodworking shop. It's about a foot in, let's say a foot cube of Oak. And I would, um, so I, I, uh, raised the grain on it with a wire brush and then I blocked printed on Oak tag page. [00:28:26] Um, some black ink on rolled onto the Oak block and made a river, basically a print off of each face of the, of the block. And then I carefully taped that paper together to simulate a paper block of the Oak chunk that I I had. now I had a super light paper version of the Oak block. And then I hung them on a balance beam, which I forged at a steel, but the hanging point was way close to the piece. [00:28:57] And if you looked at it from three feet away, just, your brain would, just hurting because you couldn't figure out how is this even possible? And because it really looked amazing, super hyper real. Anyway, it just looked amazing and it was fun to get the effect of how the hell did that. Did he do that? [00:29:18] What's what's the trick here. There's something going on. That's not real. Or it's. Uh it's not physically possible. And I kind of got that feeling with the carbon fiber bike. When we, when we built the first bike, everyone would pick it up and go, oh, that's just too light. It's not even a bike. It's a plastic bike it's going to break instantly. [00:29:39] So that was sort of a relation from, from those days to the, to the bike. [00:29:44] Randall: You ever come across Douglas Hofstadter's book, Godel, Escher Bach. [00:29:49] Craig Calfee: No, but I'd be interested to read it. [00:29:51] Randall: Definite short Lister. Um, uh, you've come across MC Escher, of Yeah. And are there any parallels or any inspiration there? [00:30:01] Craig Calfee: Um, not very direct, I'd say. Um, [00:30:08] Who [00:30:08] Randall: your, who your inspirations or what, what would you say your creative energy is most similar to? [00:30:14] Craig Calfee: I'd probably, I'd say say Buckminster fuller. [00:30:17] Randall: Mm, [00:30:17] Craig Calfee: Yeah. I mean, I studied his work in depth, you know, not only the geodesic dome stuff, but also his vehicles, the dime on vehicle the, yeah. So there's, there's a bunch of stuff that he was involved with that I'd say, I'm parallel with as far as my interest goes, [00:30:37] Randall: what books should I read? [00:30:39] Craig Calfee: all of them. [00:30:42] Randall: Where do I start? If I have limited [00:30:44] time [00:30:45] Craig Calfee: Yeah. It's a tough one. He's actually really difficult to read too. His writing is not that great. I pretty much look at his, uh, his design work more than His writing [00:30:56] Randall: Okay. So who's book whose book about Buckminster fuller. Should I read? [00:31:01] Craig Calfee: good question. I'll, I'll catch up with you on that later because there's few of them that they're worth. It's worth a look. [00:31:07] Randall: awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Um, let's talk about 2001. you're a dragon fly. [00:31:15] Craig Calfee: Yeah, the dragon fly was an interesting project. It was so Greg Lamanda had asked me, like, I want an even lighter bike. He was constantly pushing on the technology. And I said, well, there are some really expensive fibers that are starting to become available, but, um, you know, this would be a $10,000 bike frame and, you know, it's only going to be a half a pound lighter. [00:31:40] And he said, well, I don't care. I just, you know, I w I need it for racing. I mean, um, you know, when, when I'm climbing Alpe d'Huez with Miguel Indurain and if he's got a lighter bike than I do, then I'm just going to give up, you know, in terms of the effort. So he needs to have that technical advantage, or at least be on the same plane. [00:32:02] So the reason why he'd spend, you know, $5,000 for a half a pound, a weight savings was pretty, pretty real. So, but it took until about 2000, 2001 after he had long retired to, um, really make that happen. So the fibers I was talking about are really high modulus fiber that was very fragile, too brittle, really for any use. [00:32:29] So we came up with a way to integrate it with, um, boron fiber. Uh, it actually was a material we found, uh, special specialty composites out of, uh, out of Rhode Island. Uh, they, uh, do this co-mingled boron and carbon fiber, uh, hybrid material, which was, um, they were looking for a use cases for it and the bicycle was one of them. [00:32:58] So, uh, we built a prototype with their material and it turned out. To be not only really light and really strong, the, the boron made it really tough. So carbon fiber has, uh, the highest stiffness to weight ratio, intention of any material you can use. boron is the highest stiffness to weight ratio in compression as a, as a fibrous material that you can integrate into a composite. So when you mix them, you now have a combination of materials, that are unbeatable. [00:33:35] Randall: Like a concrete and rebar almost, or, quite. [00:33:40] Craig Calfee: I'd say that's a good, um, for composites in general, but now we're talking about the extreme edge of, of performance, where, um, looking at the, most high performance material certain conditions, versus tension. These, these are conditions that are existing in a bicycle tube all the time. [00:34:07] So one side of the tube is compressing while the other side is intention as you twist the bike, uh, and then it reverses on the, on the pedal stroke. So it has to do both now. Carbon fiber is quite good at that, but compression it suffers. And that's why you can't go very thin wall and make it, um, withstand any kind of impact because it's, it's got a weakness in it's, um, compressive. So, uh, it's, uh, it doesn't take a break very well either. So boron on, the other hand does take a break very well, and it's incredibly high compressive strength to weight ratio and compressive stiffness to weight ratio. are two different things by the way. So when you combine those into a tube, it's pretty amazing. [00:34:57] Uh, they're just really quite expensive. So we came up with the dragon fly, um, in 2001 and it was at the time the lightest production bike yet it also had the toughness of a normal frame. And that's that's right around when the Scott came out, which was a super thin wall, large diameter, uh, carbon frame that was really fragile. [00:35:23] Um, so that was sort of a similar weight, but not nearly as tough as, uh, the dragon fly. [00:35:34] Randall: For well, to go a little bit deeper on this. So what is the nature like? What is the nature of the boron? Is it a, like, is it a molecule? Is it a filament? So you have, you have carbon filaments is the boron, um, you know, is that, are you putting it into the resin? How is it? Co-mingled. [00:35:51] Craig Calfee: It's a, it's a filament, basically a super thin wire. [00:35:56] Randall: You're essentially co-mingling it in when you're creating the tubes and then using the same resin to bond the entire structure together. [00:36:04] Craig Calfee: That's right. [00:36:05] Randall: Got it. And this, so then this is, uh, if you were to add then say like to the resin separately, it would be a compounding effect. Um, I don't know if you have, uh, mean, I assume you've done some stuff with graphene. [00:36:19] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Graphing graphing is a really great material. It does improve the toughness of composites. Uh, it's again, also very expensive to use, uh, in a whole two. Usually it's used in smaller components, uh, not so much on the whole frame, uh, and it, and it's, um, it's best, uh, uses in preventing the of cracking. [00:36:46] So it stops the micro cracking that starts with a failure mode. And that that's a great, thing. But if your laminate is too thin to begin with that, all the graphing in the world, isn't going to help you. So for really minor wax it'll help, but for anything substantial, it's going to break anyway. [00:37:08] So you have to start out with a thick enough laminate get the toughness that you're looking for. Uh, graphene is really great for highly stressed areas, which might start cracking from, uh, fatigue or just the design flaw of a stress concentration. So it's got a number of purposes. Uh, it's great for, uh, like pinch clamp areas, you know, places where the mechanical, uh, stress is so high on a, on a very localized area. [00:37:37] Um, so yeah, graphene is wonderful. We didn't get into it too much because, um, it's just, it would just, wasn't practical for our applications and how we make the frames, but, uh, some companies have started using graphene and it's, it's pretty interesting stuff. [00:37:52] Randall: We did some experimentation with it early on in our looking at it for the future. my understanding is. You know, I haven't gone too deep into like the intermolecular physics, but it's essentially like you have a piece of paper and if you start tearing the paper that tear will propagate very easily. [00:38:09] then the graphene is almost like little tiny pieces of tape. Randomly distributed, evenly distributed across the material that makes it so that that fracture can no longer propagate in that direction. And it has to change direction where it bumps into another graphene molecule and the graphing, essentially when we tested it was doubling the bond strength of the resin. [00:38:30] So in terms of pulling apart different layers of laminate, then, um, increasing the toughness of say, uh, a rim made with the exact same laminate in the exact same resin with, 1% graphene per mass of resin increasing the toughness of that rim structure by 20%. [00:38:50] Which is pretty [00:38:50] Craig Calfee: That's correct. [00:38:51] Randall: The challenges that is that it lowers the temperature, uh, the, the glass suffocation points resin. so, you know, a rim is like, you know, there are, if you're gonna put it on the back of your car, you know, that's not a normal use case when you're riding, but, you know, it's, it's something that just makes it less resilient to those towards sorts of, you know, people put on the back of the car too close to the exhaust and they melt the rim. [00:39:17] So we're having to experiment with some high temperature residents that have other issues. [00:39:22] Craig Calfee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's rims are a great place for graphing, just cause they're in a a place where you'll have some impacts, but yeah. Temperature management is an issue. Um, yeah, that's the high temperature residents are, are another area that, that, uh, we're experimenting in, uh, wrapping electric motor, uh, rotors with, with a high temperature resonant carbon wrap. [00:39:46] that's a whole nother area, but I'm familiar with that stuff. [00:39:49] Randall: Which we'll get into in a second, park park, that one. Cause that's a fun theme. yeah. And I'm just thinking about a rim structure. It seems like boron on the inside graphing on the outside, um, deal with high compressive forces between the spokes and then the high impact forces on the external, will [00:40:07] Craig Calfee: the material we use is called high bore. You can look that up. H Y B O R and there they're actually coming back with new marketing efforts there. They, I think the company got sold and then, um, the new buyers are, are re revisiting how to, to spread the use of it. So might be real interested in supporting a rim project. [00:40:30] Randall: mm. Uh, to be continued offline. Um, all right. So then we've got your carbon fiber repair surface. We talked about the dragon fly. Um, it's a great segue into engineering and design philosophy. let's talk about that [00:40:47] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Um, well it's, to me, it's all about form follows function and, uh, when something works so well, functionally, it's gonna look good. That's uh, that's why trees look great just by themselves, uh, that that's, you know, coming back to the natural world, you know, that's why we have a Nautilus shell for, uh, for our logo. [00:41:12] It's the form follows function. Aspect of that just makes it look beautiful. For some reason, you look at something from nature, you don't really know why is it beautiful? Well, the reason is the way it's structured, the way it's evolved over millions of years. Has resulted in the optimum structure. So for me, as a, as a human being artificially trying to recreate stuff, that's been evolved in nature. [00:41:39] Um, I look closely at how nature does it first and then I'll apply it to whatever I'm dealing with at the moment. And so that's how I, that's how I design stuff. [00:41:50] Randall: there's a, the Nautilus shell example, like, you know, the golden ratio and the way that, really complex systems tend to evolve towards very simple, fundamental, primitives of all design [00:42:04] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. There's some basic stuff that, that seemed to apply everywhere. [00:42:10] Randall: So with your carbon fiber repair service, so you started to see some of the problems with that were emerging with these, um, large tube thin wall designs that were being used to achieve a high strength or sorry, a high stiffness to weight, but then compromising in other areas. [00:42:28] So let's talk about that. [00:42:30] Craig Calfee: Yeah, it's um, you know, designing a carbon fiber bike is actually really quite difficult. There's so much going on. There's so many, uh, things you have to deal with high stress areas that you can't really get around. there's a lot of constraints to designing a good bicycle frame. Um, and then you're dealing with the tradition of, of how people clamp things on bikes, you know, stem, clamps, and seed post clamps, and, uh, you know, th that type of mentality. [00:43:04] It's still with us with the carbon, which is carbon doesn't do well with. So a lot of companies struggle with that and they'll come up with something on paper or in their CAD model. And their finite element analysis sort of works, but, and then they go into the real world and they have to deal with real situations that they couldn't predict in the, the computer. [00:43:29] And they get a problem with, uh, you know, a minor handlebar whacking, the top tube situation, which shouldn't really cause your bike to become dangerous. But in fact, that's what happens. So you've got, um, you know, uh, weak points or vulnerabilities in these really light frame. And if you're not expected to know what the vulnerability is as an end-user and you don't know that if you wack part of the bike and in a minor way that you normally wouldn't expect to cause the frame to become a weak, then the whole design is a question. So you have to consider all these things when you decide to bike. And a lot of companies have just depended on the computer and they are finite element analysis too, to come up with shapes and designs that, uh, are inherently weak. And, um, people get pretty disappointed when they're, when the minor is to of incidents causes a crack in the frame. [00:44:37] And if they keep riding the bike, the crack gets bigger. And then one day, you know, I mean, most people decide to have it fixed before it gets to be a catastrophic but, uh, you know, it gets expensive and, uh, You know, it's, sad. Actually, another motivation for getting into the repair business was to save the reputation of carbon fiber as a frame material. [00:45:03] You know, these types of things don't happen to thin wall titanium frames. You know, a thin wall titanium frame will actually withstand a whole lot more abuse than a thin wall carbon frame. So it's just hard to make diameter thin wall titanium frames that are stiff enough and not without problems of welding, you know, the heat affected zones. [00:45:26] So carbon fiber is, is a better material because it's so much easier to join and to, to mold. But if you, you have to design it properly to, to withstand normal abuse. And if you're not going to do that, then there should at least be a repair service available to keep those bikes from going to the landfill. [00:45:45] So frequent. And so that's what we do we, we offer that and we even train people how to carbon repair service. So that's, um, that's something we've done in order to keep bikes from just getting thrown away. [00:46:01] Randall: uh, I think I've shared with you, I'm in the midst of, uh, doing, uh, uh, a pretty radical ground up design, which is way off in the future. So I'll be picking your brain on that, but it immediately makes me think of the inherent. Compromises of current frame design and manufacturing techniques, including on our frame. [00:46:20] And in our case, the way we've addressed that is through not going with lower modulates carbon, you know, S T 700, maybe some T 800 in the frame, then overbuilding it order to have resiliency against impacts. But then also these sorts of, um, micro voids in other imperfections that are in inherent process of any, uh, manufacturing, uh, system that involves handling of materials in a complex, you know, eight, uh, sorry, 250 a piece, you know, layup like there's, this there's even that like human elements that you have to design a whole bunch of fudge factor into to make sure that when mistakes are made, not if, but when mistakes are made, that there's so much, uh, overbuilding that they don't end up in a catastrophic failure. [00:47:10] Craig Calfee: that's right. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have some safety margin. [00:47:15] Randall: And the Manderal spinning process that you were describing essentially eliminates a lot of that in you're starting to see, I mean, with rims, that's the direction that rims are going in, everything is going to be automated, is going to be knit like a sock and frames are a much more complex shape. Um, but you're starting to see, uh, actually probably know a lot more about the, the automation of frame design than I do. [00:47:35] Um, what do you see? Like as the, as the end point, at least with regards to the, um, like filament based carbon fiber material and frames, like where could it go with technology? [00:47:50] Craig Calfee: the, the, um, robotics are getting super advanced now and there's this technique called, um, uh, they just call it fiber placements or automated fiber placement, which is a fancy word for a robot arm, winding fiber, you know, on a mandrel or shape, uh, and then compressing that and, uh, know, molding that. [00:48:14] So it's, it's where your, a robot will orient a single filament of carbon fiber. Uh, continuously all around the, uh, the shape that you're trying to make. They do that in aerospace now for a really expensive rockets and satellite parts, but the technology is getting more accessible and, uh, so robotic trimmers are another one. [00:48:42] So we're, in fact, we're getting ready to build our own robotic arm tremor for a resin transfer, molded parts. That's where the edge of the part that you mold gets trimmed very carefully with a router. And, but imagine instead of just a router trimming an edge, you've got a robot arm with a spool of fiber on it, wrapping the fiber individually around the whole structure of the frame. [00:49:10] Uh, no, no people involved just, you know, someone to turn the machine on and then turn it off again. So that's kind of coming that that is a future. Uh, it hasn't arrived yet, certainly, maybe for simpler parts, but a frame is a very complex shape. So it'll take a while before they can get to that point. [00:49:30] Randall: It having to, yeah. Being able to Uh, spin a frame in one piece is, seems to be the ultimate end game. [00:49:43] Craig Calfee: Yeah. I think we need to, I think the, the, uh, genetically modified spiders would be a better way to [00:49:50] go [00:49:50] Randall: Yeah, they might, they might help us the design process. [00:49:56] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Yeah. Just give them some good incentives and they'll, they'll make you set a really incredibly strong, you know, spider wound. [00:50:05] Randall: Well, it does. It speaks to the, the, the biggest challenge I see with that, which is you have to go around shape. so if you're going through a frame, like it's essentially the triangle. And so you need some way to like hand off the, the S the filament carrier from one side to the other constantly. [00:50:27] you'd just be able to spin it. You know, it would be pretty straightforward. So maybe the frame comes in a couple of different sections that get bonded, but then those don't form a ring. And so you can, you know, you can move them around instead of the machine order [00:50:41] Craig Calfee: Well, there's these things called grippers. So the robot grip sit and then another arm grip know let's go and the other arm picks it up. And then there's like in weaving, there's this thing called the flying shuttle, which invented. That's where the shuttle that, the war [00:50:59] Randall: Your ancestors were involved with flying shuttle. [00:51:02] Craig Calfee: Yeah. [00:51:02] Randall: That's one of the, uh, all right. That's, that's a whole other conversation. [00:51:07] Craig Calfee: Yeah, a really interesting, I mean, it's the Draper corporation. If you want to look it up, [00:51:13] um [00:51:13] Randall: I [00:51:13] Craig Calfee: know [00:51:14] they were the manufacturing made the looms back in the industrial revolution in the Northeast [00:51:21] Randall: I'm sitting currently in Waltham, which was one of the first mill cities, um, not from Lowell. [00:51:28] Craig Calfee: Yeah. So all those mills were where our customers and they would buy the Draper looms. Um, and they were automated looms with a flying shuttle was a big deal Uh back then. And so they, they made a lot of, of those looms and, and that's basically what sent me to college with a trust fund. So [00:51:49] Randall: You're a trust fund, baby. [00:51:51] Craig Calfee: Yep. [00:51:51] Yep [00:51:53] From vendors. [00:51:55] Uh [00:51:56] but that's yeah, that's the world I, I came out of. And, so the, the idea of taking a spool of material and handing it off as you wrap around something is really not that difficult. [00:52:08] Randall: Okay. So then you can do it in a way that is resilient to probably 10,000 handoffs over the course of weaving a frame and you can expect that it's not going to fail once. [00:52:19] Craig Calfee: That's right Yeah [00:52:20] It [00:52:20] Randall: All then that, that's [00:52:22] Craig Calfee: the hard part, the hard part is dealing with the resin and the, and the, uh, forming and the getting a nice surface finish. That was where the harder. [00:52:31] Randall: Yeah. And, uh, uh, I'm thinking about, uh, space X's attempts to create a giant, uh, carbon fiber, uh, fuel tank. And they actually had to do the, um, the heating the resin at the point of, uh, depositing of the filaments. [00:52:52] And [00:52:52] you know, that's a really challenging process because you can't build an autoclave big enough to contain a fuel tank for a giant rocket bicycles don't have that issue, but [00:53:01] Craig Calfee: right. Yeah. The filament winding technique, which is how all those tanks are made is, is pretty amazing in the large scale of those, those big rockets is phenomenal. I mean, a couple of places in Utah that make those, and it's just seeing such a large things spinning and, uh, wrapping around it rapidly is quite inspiring. [00:53:26] Randall: Yeah. It's very, very cool stuff. And that's, again, a whole another thread about the, uh, the Utah based, uh, composites industry that got its start in aerospace, you know, advanced aerospace applications, which NV and others came out of. They used to be edge which you worked with. NBU designed their tubes early on. [00:53:43] Right. [00:53:44] Craig Calfee: W well, yeah, the poles history behind envy and quality composites back in late eighties, literally, uh, when I first came out to, uh, actually I was still, think I ordered them in Massachusetts and took delivery in California, but it was a quality composites and out of Utah, uh, Nancy Polish was the owner of that. [00:54:06] Also an MIT graduate who, um, who started a roll wrapping carbon fiber in tubular forum. And I'm pretty sure we were the first roll wrapped carbon tubes, uh, for bicycles that she made. And, um Uh, evolved to, uh, edge composites. So they, so quality composites became McClain quality composites, and then McLean, the guys who broke away from that went to start envy or edge, I guess, which became envy. [00:54:40] So yeah, those same guys brought that technology and we've been the customer ever since. And now there's yet another spinoff. The guys who were making the tubes at envy spun off and started their own company, uh, in a cooperative venture with envy. So let them go basically. And, uh, we're working with those guys. [00:55:01] So it's just following the, the top level of expertise. [00:55:06] Randall: very interesting stuff. Um, so, so where else do we go in terms of the, I mean, this is about as deep a composite deep nerdery, as we can get in, into composites and so on. And, uh, given that we're already here, we might as just, you know, dig ourselves deeper. [00:55:25] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Um, sir, just on the roll wrapping, the thing that, um, I remember one of the cool innovations that Nancy came up with was the double D section, um, tube where she would roll wrap two D shaped tubes, stick them together and do an outer wrap on the outside. So it was a efficient way to do a ribbed tube or a single ribs through the middle. She pretty much invented. [00:55:53] Uh, we started doing something with that, um, change days, uh, to get more stiffness out of a change day. But, um, I just, some reason that image flashed in my mind about some of the innovative stuff that been going on that people don't really see it's. And that's what I'm saying before where the, uh, technology of composites has, um it's got a long way to go and it's, there's all kinds of stuff going on that are, are, is brand new. [00:56:23] Uh, most people people don't see it cause it's all process oriented more than product oriented. But for guys like me, it's really fast. [00:56:34] Randall: Yeah, it reminds me of, um, a technology owned by a Taiwanese carbon frame manufacturing, pretty large-scale tier one that I'd spoken to where they're doing, uh, that bracing inside of the forks. don't think they're doing anything especially advanced in terms of how it's manufactured. [00:56:54] I think they just have a, uh, the, the inner, um, you know, whether it's a bag or it's a, you know, EPS insert. And then they're just bridging, uh, between the two walls of the, uh, of the tube of the, the fork leg, uh, with another piece of carbon that gives it more lateral structure zero, uh, impact on the, um, for AFT compliance, which is a really technique. [00:57:21] Craig Calfee: that sounds like Steve Lee at [00:57:24] Randall: Uh, this was YMA. [00:57:27] Craig Calfee: Oh, okay. [00:57:28] Randall: Yeah, the gigantic folks. I haven't, I don't know if I've interacted with them yet, but, um, but yeah, well, [00:57:35] Craig Calfee: Yeah, some amazing innovation coming out of Taiwan. They're there. They're so deep into it. It's, it's a fun place to go and, and see what they're up to. [00:57:47] Randall: this actually brings me back to, um, I, I did had a conversation with over with Russ at path, less pedaled, and was asking like, you know, tell me about the quality of stuff made, made over in Asia. And I was like, well, you know, it's generally best to work with their production engineers because they're so close to the actual manufacturing techniques and they're the ones innovating on those techniques. [00:58:10] And in fact, um, you know, even specialized up until recently did not do carbon fiber in. outsource that, you know, they, they do some of the work in house, but then the actual design for manufacture and all that is being done by the factories and rightfully so the factories know it better, being close to the ground though, dealing with someone with yourself, you're someone who could go into a factory and be like, okay, let's, let's innovate on this. [00:58:35] Craig Calfee: Yeah. [00:58:36] Yeah. [00:58:37] Randall: so then 2011, um, first production, gravel bike. [00:58:45] Craig Calfee: Uh, yeah. Yeah. We came up with the, uh, adventure bike, we call it, um, it was also the first one that did the, uh, six 50 B uh, tire size that can be used with a 700 by 42 or So mixing, know, going bigger tire on a slightly smaller rim on the same bike as you'd run a 700 C and, uh, 35 or 40 millimeter tire. Um, yeah, so the adventure bike has been. Uh, a real fun area for us as far as, uh, just developing a, do everything. Be everything, bike [00:59:24] Randall: it's. And the geometry of that was kind of an endurance road geometry, right [00:59:28] Craig Calfee: that's [00:59:29] right. It's a road bike effectively, but with a few, a few, uh, tweaks for riding off road. [00:59:36] Randall: So then this, this word, gravel bike is kind of muddled. [00:59:39] Um, I never liked it, frankly. Uh, it's a marketing term. I remember it specialized when we were doing the, the diverse, um, you know, it was still kind of honing in on what these bikes were. Uh, but you could argue that like, you know, you know, everyone's road bike was a gravel bike. When you just put the biggest tires that would fit and write it on dirt. [00:59:57] But this concept of a one bike, it seems to be what you've planted. But you can have a single bike that will be your road, bike, perform handle, give you that, that experience when you put road wheels on, but then you can put these big six fifties on there and have a, you know, an off-road crit machine that is highly competent in, in rough terrain. [01:00:16] And so, so yeah, that, and that's very much my design philosophy as you know, as well, you know, fewer bikes that do more things. [01:00:24] Craig Calfee: Yeah. We have this. Kind of a marketing phrase for, you know, how the end plus one concept where, you know, how many bikes do you even need? Well, one more than what you've got. Well, we do the N minus one concept with our mountain bike, which can also be a gravel by ache or a bike, but it's, uh, it allows you to change the head tube angle and, and use different, uh, fork travel suspension forks on, on the same frame. [01:00:55] Uh, and of course, swapping wheels out is, is always a thing. So yeah, the end minus one concept where we just need less stuff, you know, [01:01:04] Randall: So I reinvented that when I started thesis, he used to say like, and, minus three, it replaces road, bike, your gravel bike, your road, bike, your cross bike, your, um, light duty cross country bike, uh, your adventure bike actually as well, you know, load these things up. yeah, very much a philosophy that, uh, I think it's so good that the, its efforts to come up with new, subcategories, for example, by having gravel bikes now run oversize 700 wheels and extending the geo and going with these really slack head angles in order to accommodate that wheel size. [01:01:40] I actually think that the form, the form that things want to evolve towards is actually what you created in the first place, which is the one bike that does all the things and does them well. And depending on the wheels you put on them, um, we'll do we'll, we'll transform. Uh, and you know, we've, we've talked a little bit about geo changing, um, You know, and things like this, which you have a bike that, that does that. [01:02:03] And why don't we talk a bit about that in the technology behind it? [01:02:08] Craig Calfee: The SFL, you mean we use the geometry of the head tube and the bottom bracket to, uh, to accommodate what you're using it for? Yeah, the concept there is to, if you're on a long ride to be able to change the geometry of your bike mid ride. So with an Allen wrench, you, uh, basically swap these flip plates out on your head to varia. [01:02:32] And so you climb, you can climb with one geometry with another. And to me, that's, that's really fun because the climbing, you, if you're climbing up a a long steep climb on a bike that you're going to descend back down on, uh, you really don't want the same geometry it's, you're compromising and one or the other, either climate. [01:02:55] Or it descends great. It's rarely both, or really can't possibly be both. Cause they're just doing two different things. So if you can swap out these flip plates and change the head tube angle, which is really all you need at that point, um, you have a bike that climbs great and descends. Great. So for me, that was the goal of, uh, just making a better mountain bike. Um, you know, the fact that it can be converted into other bikes for different disciplines is a whole nother angle. Uh, and you can even do that perhaps you wouldn't do it the trail, but let's say you show up, say you're on a trip, an adventure, uh, maybe out to Utah, for example, where you're riding slick rock, but you're also going to go up, you know, into the mountains. [01:03:45] Um, you'll have you, you might want to have. Different fork travels or different for, uh, options. So you can bring a couple of different forks and swap out a fork, change your flip plates and have a bike. That's awesome for slick rock. And then another one that's awesome for, for the bike parks. So, you know, to me it would, but it's only one bike and you know, you don't need, you know, three bikes. So that, that just, uh, that's the design result of a bike where you can change the head tube angle on, [01:04:21] Randall: and the, in really how much head tube angle adjustment is there on there. [01:04:25] Craig Calfee: uh, it's a or minus four degrees [01:04:28] Randall: that's, that's substantial. [01:04:30] Craig Calfee: that's a lot. [01:04:31] Randall: Yeah. [01:04:31] I mean, that's transformative really. I work in increments of, you know, half a degree. [01:04:36] Craig Calfee: Yeah. These are half degree increments, um, right now, uh, one degree, but we can easily do half degree increments. find that one degree is, is really. Um, especially when you have the option of, of tweaking the same bike. So reason we focus on these half degree increments on a production bike is to dial in the best compromise between two, two ways that it's going to be used when you don't need to compromise, you can go a full degree in the other direction and not worry about fact that it's not going to perform as well, know, in super steep terrain because that flipped chip is not, uh, the right one for the super steep scenario. [01:05:22] Just change it out or flip it over a T when you approach the really steep stuff. So yeah. [01:05:29] Randall: applicable for mountain bikes, particularly because the, I mean, the slack, the long slack that, that have emerged in recent years make a ton of sense for mountain biking, especially descending, but when you're ascending, it ends up being so slack that you get wheel flop, you get the front end, lifting the bike naturally wants to tilt back. [01:05:49] You don't have that on a gravel bike currently. And if you don't, if you're not adding a huge suspension fork, you're never going to be descending terrain that is so technical that you need those slacked out angles. So it sounds like something that's very much could be applied to gravel bikes, but that, you know, for the mountain bike application is actually pretty game-changing. [01:06:06] Craig Calfee: Yeah, well on gravel bikes or adventure bikes, um, uh, it's actually helpful if you're, if you're, let's say you're a roadie and you're starting to go off road. And so you're driving these gravel trails and then you're starting to get into more interesting off-road excursions with that same bike, but your experience on steep terrain is limited because you're, you know, you're a roadie, you've your, all your muscle memory and all your bike handling memory comes from the road and a little bit of dirt road stuff. [01:06:39] Now you're kind of getting into serious off-road stuff and you want to try. a Uh, shortcut dissent, uh, you know, down something kind of crazy. Uh, let's say, uh, you're not very good at it in the beginning and you take your time and you, you don't have a bike that can go that fast down, such a trail, then you change it out. [01:07:00] As you get better at it, as you increase your skill level and your confidence level, might want to go a little faster. So you a bike that can go a little faster safely and go for that slack head angle, which is designed to get higher speed. So it's great for evolving skills and evolving terrain as you start exploring more radical stuff. [01:07:27] So that's the other reason to do it. [01:07:29] Randall: Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense. And in fact, any, you know, what I'm working on going forward very much as a, uh, one of the core, you know, is, uh, being able to tailor the geometry, um, as close to on the fly as possible. Uh, you know, if you want it to be on the fly, you're going to add a huge amount of added structure and complexity and weight, but having it be when you swap the wheels, there's very little to do, you know, this sort of thing. [01:07:57] Craig Calfee: Yeah. So yeah, the whole idea is to, is to be able to go and have really fun adventures after all I wrote the book on adventures, see, here's, uh, this is a, this is the commercial part of our, our, uh, [01:08:10] plug [01:08:12] is, uh, this book I wrote about a trip. I took back in the, in the mid early eighties. Uh it's it's a kind of a. [01:08:20] Randall: of a [01:08:21] Craig Calfee: It has nothing to do with bikes, except that there is a section in there where I made a canteen out of bamboo in the Congo, but it's a pretty crazy trip. And, uh, and I just called it adventures. It's on amp. anyone wants to buy it. [01:08:37] Randall: I will get a coffee. [01:08:39] Craig Calfee: Yeah. [01:08:42] Randall: Um, very, very cool. Um, we skipped over one, which is the manta, which is another interesting innovation [01:08:51] Craig Calfee: Yeah. Suspension on a road bike. I mean, that's a, I keep saying that's going to be the future and it hasn't happened yet, but I, I still believe that road bikes will be the main type of bike being written in the highest levels of racing. [01:09:08] interesting [01:09:08] Randall: So you think suspension versus say. Um, wide tubeless, aerodynamic, the optimized rims with a 30 mil tire run at lower pressures. You think the suspension has a sufficient benefit relative to that, to offset say the structural complexity or weight? [01:09:25] Craig Calfee: Yes. So, uh, the big tire thing, trend towards bigger tires is really a trend towards suspension. It's pneumatic suspension rather than mechanical suspension. [01:09:39] Randall: Well, as our regular listeners know, this is a topic that's very much near and dear to my heart. I talk often about the benefits of pneumatic suspension, so this will be an interesting place for us to st

NBD 58 อดีต ปัจจุบัน อนาคตของ Interbike Thailand

New Bike Day

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2021 96:41

ปีเตอร์-วิรุฬห์ สุพรรณวัฒนชัย กรรมการผู้จัดการ Interbike Thailand ทายาทรุ่นสามของตระกูลผู้บุกเบิกธุรกิจจักรยานไทย กับการทำธุรกิจสองล้อโต้คลื่นความเปลี่ยนแปลงด้วยวิธีการที่ไม่เหมือนใคร

thailand interbike

Better, Faster, with Jon Thornham from FloCycles & the Faster Podcast

Endurance Nation Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 1, 2021 40:19

Coach Patrick interviews Jon Thornham from FloCycles on the secret sauce that helps FLO make cyclists faster and passionate brand advocates. The equation is simple - help cyclists around the globe get faster without breaking the bank. The magic lies in the execution and work ethic that keep FLO in that sweet spot of quality and value. Jon dishes on the origin of FLO, why they chose a Direct-to-Consumer model, how they have handled the industry pivot to disc brakes, the value of the FLO podcast, and their core values around giving back. Hard not to like FLO even more after this great conversation! Find FLO online here: www.flocycling.com Faster Podcast Bike for a Kid One Wheel, One Tree

Kali Protectives - Brad Waldron, founder

Denise Griffitts - Your Partner In Success!

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 15, 2021 30:08

This week we sit down with Brad Waldron, founder of Kali Protectives to take a deep dive into helmet tech and the new Grit gravel helmet. Kali Protectives Web / Instagram Support the Podcast The Ridership Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Kali Protectives Craig Dalton: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Gravel Ride podcast. I'm your host Craig Dalton this week on the podcast. We've got Brad Waldron from Kali. Protectives talking to us about helmets. [00:00:15]Before we jump in just to reminder, The Gravel Ride podcast is sponsored by listeners like you and a select group of sponsors from the industry and outside the industry. We appreciate any contributions to the show's www.buymeacoffee.com/thegravelride. And when we do bring a sponsor on board, please make sure to check out their products because without their support, we couldn't continue doing what we're doing. [00:00:40] [00:00:40]With that said let's dive right into my interview with Kali. Protectives. Brad. Welcome to the show. [00:00:46] Brad Waldron: [00:00:46] Thanks for having me [00:00:47] Craig Dalton: [00:00:47] I'm super stoked to talk helmets. It's interesting. It's one of those categories that. I haven't covered on the podcast thus far. So I figured going to an expert and talking about it will give the listener a lot of value about helmet technology for gravel, riding [00:01:02]Brad Waldron: [00:01:02] looking forward to it. [00:01:04] Craig Dalton: [00:01:04] Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your background and how Kali was started? [00:01:09]Brad Waldron: [00:01:09] Sure. I was super lucky in a previous life career. I worked for an aerospace company working on military aircraft. So I was a carbon fiber R and D engineer. Mostly on the process side, not on the material side. [00:01:22]I was fortunate enough to work on the B2 bomber F eighteens joint strike fighter, and then a few airplanes that had never made it, but just stuff you've made it and broke it to see what we could do. And this will give you the idea of my age, but I was at Northrop Grumman in between the first Gulf war and the second Gulf war. [00:01:41] And they didn't want to put a lot of money in production at that time, but they want to put a lot of money into R and D. So I was just in the perfect place at the perfect time where you could almost do anything you wanted. If it made sense. I, one time my boss walked in and said, DARPA's going to be here next week. [00:01:57] Think of something. Go back to my desk and I, without five different projects and the next week sit down in front of these generals and you. Present these ideas in here I'm, in my late twenties, early thirties, somewhere in there. And they're like rubber stamping, all of them and oh shit. [00:02:12] Now I got, I do, so I got to build a $12 million milling machine and then just things like that. So that's where my real just try it. Mentality came from, when you hear are, you can't do that. And get into some of the things that people told me we couldn't do at Kali. It's let's just try, and that's been like theme sentence. [00:02:30] So I worked that and through some changes in life, I went to work or another aerospace company and didn't love it, so I was down in the Southern California area, working there. And then I moved back up to Northern California where I was born and raised. And I was in R and D at this satellite company and it just wasn't everything I wanted. [00:02:49] And lo and behold, there's this ad for the big red S in the paper. And so I put on my suit and went to my interview. Nobody's wearing a suit, got called back for a second interview and go, what do I wear when I knew I wore the suit? Yeah. So I guess it worked, they offered me a job as the Pumps and locks, designer, something like that. [00:03:09]And I was so happy to take my 25% pay cut to be in the bike industry. And there was, and then on my first day they said, Hey, you know that job, we offered you the helmet guy quit. And would you rather that job on the helmets over locks? Hell yeah. But the ironic thing was they, at that time, specialized was still assembling the helmets at, on a site and. [00:03:32] We tested our helmets and they said, there's the test lab. There's 10,000 helmets sitting over there that can't be shipped. So you say they're tested and Don, w oh, and by the way that the helmet technician quit at the same time. And so I walked into this test lab with this equipment I never seen in my life and go, okay, what did we do here? [00:03:50] And fortunately somebody who's become a good friend and who I trust in testing. Dr. Terry Smith came and trained me how to run the equipment. The best thing I did was I tested all the helmets at specialized for the next year. I didn't hire another technician. So getting that lab experience and seeing how these helmets broke personally, not just people come and say, Hey, look at this, here's your, reading reports and stuff it's was a great launching point for [00:04:17] me. [00:04:18] Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine just having your hands on that many. Tests to see how these helmets are performing just was like training by fire. [00:04:27]I tell people frequently that I'm a mediocre engineer. I'm really a better technician. I just somehow wiggled my way to get my degree, but mostly I just love being in the shop. [00:04:36] If you saw my office next to me as a drill press on the other side of the bandsaw, just being out there with my hands is the way [00:04:44] Craig Dalton: [00:04:44] I work. And did you have a background at cycling when you were in the aerospace industry? [00:04:48] Brad Waldron: [00:04:48] I had started cycling with some friends and just, around the LA area. [00:04:52] And if, I lived in first and Palmdale. When I first moved into Palmdale, I walked into a bike shop and this long hair blonde guy walks up and says, can I help you? And I said I'm new to the area. Can tell me where some trails are. And he's I'll pick you up Saturday morning at nine, it turned out it was insane. [00:05:10] Wayne crows Dale. So my first ride was insane, Wayne, and he there's a long story on board with it all, but he basically rode a wheelie up the fire road next to me, up and up. And, but we had a, the time rode with Wayne A. Little bit and then, got into riding there. And then the transfer down further. [00:05:29] Into the depths of LA, where you have to drive an hour just to get to the dirt. lot of people around me were riding and that's where I really got started riding was during that. [00:05:39] Craig Dalton: [00:05:39] Yeah. Right on. And you brought that to specialize and obviously specialized has a big riding culture down there in Morgan hill. [00:05:45] Brad Waldron: [00:05:45] Yep. Yeah. We're actually about 500 meters from them. Our building is they actually have to pass us to get to their building. And so we painted big ass Cali letters all over the building. Just to annoy him. [00:05:58]Craig Dalton: [00:05:58] So then at some point you decided I'm going to jump off and do this on my own. What, was there a particular market opportunity that you saw? [00:06:05] Something that you felt wasn't being done at the bigger companies? [00:06:08] Brad Waldron: [00:06:08] No, not yet. That's not really where it happened. At the time when I was in special ed, so I had moved on from helmets and eventually became the head of engineering that specialized for everything for bikes. Mostly. What I concentrated on was the carbon fiber projects. [00:06:22]The the, I worked on the tarmac and Robi mostly on the layups and things like that. Other guys who had much better frame experience than I did you know, the geometry? So I would go the factories and work with the carbon layups and things like that. And we would make it and break it. I still have, I have tarmac frame, number two, doesn't look, anything like what went to production. [00:06:43]It had a split top tube who knew that was UCI illegal, but so my re people see it all the time. It doesn't say special. I didn't say anything on it. So it's got carbon, top tube and chains and seats tubes, and and then the underbody is aluminum. So the idea was it was going to be nice, crisp, feel of the aluminum, but where your body touches, you're going to have that forgiving carbon fiber Conceptually feel. [00:07:09] And so I still have that bike when people see me out on it I'm not a big roadie. I don't ride a lot on the road, but they're like, what the hell is that? Because it's totally unrecognizable, but it's pretty cool. So I actually left specialized primarily because they were going through some transitions at the time they had wanted to transfer a lot of the engineering to Taiwan. [00:07:32] And I wasn't interested in that job. I had my first kid, I didn't want to travel, did not want to travel at all. And so I actually resigned from the position. It was a great experience. It took me nine months to leave. Because I didn't have another job. I hired my replacement. I finished those two bikes and then just started consulting a little bit. [00:07:52] So I consulted. A little bit with true beta worked on their first carbon bars. With Jared Smith, they're headed for engineering their first carbon cranks, things like that. And it bounced around a little bit. Then somebody came to me and said, we need a carbon fiber factory in China to feed these other factories. [00:08:12] And I just quit specialized cause I didn't want to travel. And they came to me and said, Hey, can you help us start the Stackery? And I'm like, how many times a year will I have to come? Then they were four times. I'm like four, okay. Talking to a non traveler. Now I said, I can come for four times a year. I spent no less than 150 days a year for the next seven years. [00:08:33]I just couldn't let it go, try to get the thing up and running and working the way. And we made things like skid plates and pipe bards. KTM was one of our biggest customers. But one of our customers was a helping it factory. So they came to us to make a motorcycle helmet shell, and they, we looked at this thing and we made the shell, we sent it over. [00:08:52]And they knew I also had some testing background. They were showing me these test results. And I was seeing some things that I didn't like. Basically I was seeing a double spike in G-Force and what that meant to me, it was inside your school or your brains just slapping around. Cause you're seeing a double impact. [00:09:10]That was happening because as the impact hits the outer shell was so stiff that if you forced a spike up, then as the shell breaks down, they start to fall. Then you hit the foam and they spike up again. I'm like okay, what's doing, that is the gap between your foam and my shell. [00:09:27]Let's get this thing tighter. Arrive, for example, really prides themselves on the fact that they designed their foam and shell to fit so well. Not everybody spends that much time on it. Then I had this really, according to them, stupid idea. He said, why aren't you in molding these like the bike helmet? [00:09:43] And they're like, that's impossible. It's a processing problem. You'll never make it work. And that's where that let's just try it thing came in. So we went in and we tried it. It took a couple of years to finally get it to work, but we started in molding motorcycle helmet. So now you're eliminating that gap between the farm and shop. [00:10:03] Then on top of it, you start to learn, oh, I don't need that much shell. I can thin the shell down because I've got the phone, backing it up. And by the way, I don't even have to have as high of DPS density. I can lower that too. So now I'm finding out that when I have the impact, instead of having that double spike and G-forces, I've got this nice smooth curve that spreads the load much more efficiently, then I got less shell. [00:10:29] I got lighter foam. I got a much lighter helmet. And I always liked to tell people I never start a project with a weight goal. I think that's not a good way to start a project that, that compromises safety in my opinion. But that process was helping us make a much lighter helmet, which in the end is simple physics force equals mass times acceleration, reduce the mass. [00:10:51] You're going to reduce the force. So we started, Perfecting this process showing these results around, tried to sell the patent. I did not. I was not looking to start my own company. That being a CEO, being in sales and marketing, not my favorite thing. We had a few people who were really close to buying it and then backed off. [00:11:11] And then somebody who somebody came along a golden investor, essentially. Came along and said, you got to do this and I'll back you. And so I've got one silent investor in his company has been nothing but amazing. Always allowing me to make safety decisions first over simply. What are your sales today? [00:11:30]Craig Dalton: [00:11:30] You mentioned that's amazing. You mentioned that you started with that motorcycle helmets technology did Cali launch where the motorcycle [00:11:39]Brad Waldron: [00:11:39] we did and nobody cared. Literally we, we went to the Interbike of Moda, which was Indianapolis. There was in Indianapolis motor sports show and we got our booth and I'm standing there my first day. [00:11:52] And you could hear the yarn from the industry. Nobody cared, had the cutouts, you could see. So the second day I'm like, I spent all of my money to get here. I stood in the aisle and made people pick up the helmet. Cause it was significantly lighter. Then what people were used to, and, know, you get the response, like that's it's okay. [00:12:09] But I guess just put it in your hands and if you don't want to talk to me, move on and then you put it in their hands and go, what is this? And then through that, the rest of the next few days, I only had one guy actually put it in my hand and walk on. Everybody else said, all right, what's going on? [00:12:22] And then we would explain what was happening with the in molding process and why we could do what we could do and, and show the results of the [00:12:30] Craig Dalton: [00:12:30] testing. Was it always in the back of your head to move into the cycling market? [00:12:35]Brad Waldron: [00:12:35] I was more of a cyclist than I was Moto. When I started doing good, if I get involved with something, I want to get into the sport. [00:12:41] So when we started making skid plates and pipe guards, I went and bought motorcycles, started riding dirt bikes. Now I ride a Ducati and in a fixer and and but cycling was definitely more my heart. But it, so it wasn't that I was necessarily looking to do that, but we had found a way to build full shell helmets that I believe in, I drank my own Kool-Aid that when you put that on your head using that technology, you were putting on a safer product on your head. [00:13:11] So the next thing of course was to do a full face download on it. So we did that and immediately the bike industry was. More welcoming. Yeah. The motor industry is great, but it's complex. It's the distributors have all had their own helmet brands. So in our industry, we've got the different distributors BTI, K Chaz QBP, all these different guys. [00:13:34] They don't have their own brands. When you start talking about Modo, they all have their own Hammad brands. If you think. The answer for example, is open owned by a company called Rocky. There's just the complexity of getting past the house brands where, when you were finding people were interested in our conversations. [00:13:51]We'd go to Interbike and people wanted to talk to us. They wanted to hear about what we had and yeah, and that's where we really started taking it off is when we were having these one-on-one conversations, it wasn't through any advertising. We did it. Wasn't through. The talk, it was meeting people and just showing them what we did and answering questions. [00:14:10]And that philosophy is still super important to us today. You call Kelly today. You better get somebody on the phone, somebody better to answer the phone. Cause that's our, we want to talk to people and respond. And that's an important part of who we are. So [00:14:24] Craig Dalton: [00:14:24] is it safe to say that the sort of signals the bike industry was giving you around the full face helmet suggested, Hey. [00:14:30] We need to lean into this and create a range of helmets for cyclists. [00:14:34]Brad Waldron: [00:14:34] Yeah. It came into, when you started talking to shops and what their needs are it's one thing to walk in with one helmet, it, when you're going up against, but let's be honest, you're going up against track, specialized, giant Cannondale, Scott, these guys all have, all their products behind them. [00:14:52]And they all have helmets and there's incentives to bring in those helmets. You get a discount if you bring that in. Then the only, other, not the only, but the other big boys would in are, bell Jiro who do have a complete range, that doesn't leave a lot of room for a lot of other people. [00:15:04] So expanding your range and it's something that makes sense for a shop carry. I still love bike shops. I still love walking in and smell the rubber. And still today Over 90% of our sales are still two independent bike dealers. Our, the amount that sold online is small. And that's a whole nother, probably podcast to talk about how that continues. [00:15:29] But our main focus is still to, to maintain those relationships with those independent bike shops. [00:15:35] Craig Dalton: [00:15:35] Interesting. So when you develop that range and I guess we can slip into the. More road and gravel helmets that you guys have been releasing over the few years. What features were you leaning into at that point? [00:15:46]You talked about how originally the differentiator turned out to be the weight and the technology around protecting the head and maybe a different way than had been done. Where did that go to for the road slash gravel helmets? [00:15:59] Brad Waldron: [00:15:59] Sure. Really what's what continues to drive us as technology. [00:16:02] We're always looking for stuff that can help us make. The next step. And we started with a technology from a guy from Australia called conehead, where you got the geometric shapes inside these helmets and they crushed the, but to get more specific to answering your question, some of the difficulties, when you start talking about road, helmets is ventilation is so important, right? [00:16:24] So getting big vents, getting air flow through. When you do that, you have to really crank up the density of the foam to get the enough to stop the impact according to the standards. When you do that let me put it another way to start with this. I believe all helmets are too hard. [00:16:41] We're hurting people by the foam densities. We need to get the foam densities down. It's based on how the interpretation of the standards are, which are built to take the worst of the worst crashes. We're not doing enough to deal with them. Where the majority of crashes are, which are according to a study at the Imperial college of London. [00:16:59]80% of all bicycle accidents are below 160. G's, yet all I got to do to pass a test and sell you a helmet is go to the test lab and make sure it doesn't go over 300 GS. Now 300 GS is close to death. Alrighty. How do we address both of those big hits? But also the majority of those hits. [00:17:21] And so that's where, that's where a lot of my time gets focused on. It's not specifically for a genre of helmet per se, but how do we lower the density of the foam? How do we put stuff next to your head? That's softer. How do we start reducing impact at zero G's? So now I jumped back to the question of how do we deal with the gravel helmets? [00:17:45]Again, now I'm battling. I got to put a lot of foam in a small space, which means I got to Jack up the densities. What's cool. Even though a lot of people don't know about Kali, we're known within the industry and the other helmet companies know each other. But getting a reputation is it somebody who wants to try technology? [00:18:03] We get people coming to us all the time saying, Hey, you want to try this? And my answer is always the same. If it works right, you bet. I'm going to try it. W we were approached initially by Don Morgan, that physicist from Australia with the corn head later, we were approached with a from a chemical company out of Italy that had this carbon nano to acrylic based material that they were trying to pitch as a multi impact material. [00:18:27]It didn't work as multi impact, but it works. So now I can bind the code ed and EPS. And I'm finding I'm able to lower the density in the helmet that we're probably going to talk about, which is the grit. And so much that I was shocked at the first round of testing that I was expecting the typical results where I got to put it way too hard, the higher density, if I'm in a place that I don't really want to put it, but by putting the right materials in the right combinations I'm getting better results then than I expected. [00:19:03]Craig Dalton: [00:19:03] And so did that sort of Eureka moment happened early in the process and allow you then to pursue different elements of the design? [00:19:11]Brad Waldron: [00:19:11] It wish she was at easy. We actually took, originally took that structure that I talked about and put it in an Aero helmet. And the other way I can go with this stuff is I can. [00:19:24] If you look at our Tada helmet, it's an Aero helmet. I think I've sold a hundred of them, so I don't think you've seen it. Probably. I think we have it on the Danish road team. So unless you've been there Copenhagen lately, I'm not sure you've seen this helmet, but if you actually look at it and you look at cross-section of it, it's one of the finished how much you've ever seen. [00:19:43]Which was interesting. For me as an engineer, that I could actually get this thing to work and pass the test. But because passing the test is not my goal. My goal is saving lives. Maybe cheeky about that, but it really is what we give a shit about. We want people to get on their bikes and ride more. [00:20:04]I want to get on my bike and ride more. I've been helicoptered off the hill before we want that to happen, but when I went back to more. Realistic thicknesses and I could drive those foam densities down. Now I'm getting the results I want and not only on linear impacts, but rotational impacts and I'll skip back. [00:20:24] We're doing a lot of testing and outside labs. So we took some of our helmets. We put in MIPS in it. We put in what we call Rian, which is our low density layer. That's Material developed by a professor out of London. We put in like five different anti-rotation systems and we tested them against each other. [00:20:42] And they all do an interesting job. A little better here, a little better there. Sometimes this system works, sometimes this is the work better. What consistently worked better was we threw in a. Helmet with extremely low density in it. It's actually a homophobic. We sell in Europe, but can't sell here because the density is too low and that helmet consistently performed way better in rotational forces. [00:21:06] So all these systems that we put in help, but what really matters is put softer shit next to your head. Let's get these things to be more crushing and more the pillow's a little bit overrated, but just get that stuff that will crush next to your head. So when I'm talking about using the nano material in the Coneheads structures, I'm basically talking about a way in a much smaller area to get the foam density down where it's really making a difference for you during that crash. [00:21:37] Craig Dalton: [00:21:37] Is that right? A way to articulate upon impact how a Cali helmet performs versus kind of maybe a major brand helmet in terms of how it crushes how the materials work? [00:21:48] Brad Waldron: [00:21:48] Sure. I don't know how to say it. It's that I can say, I'll go continue to go back to that foam density thing. Most people don't put as much energy as we do in trying to find how to get to that lower density. [00:22:01] So basically if the density is too hard, that thing you're going to smack and it's going to crack cracking is fine and a big hit on the helmet cause that's releasing energy. But what I really want is I want it to crush. And I wanted to crush equally. And then by having those, like those geometric shapes in that center, it's actually, if you look at it, it looks like an Oreo because the nanomaterials white, you've got the black DPS around it. [00:22:25] And as that outer side crushes, then you hit another material that's meant to crush and send the energy laterally away from your head in those geometric structures. Rather than a smack and a crack, you're just seeing a progressive crack with multiple different materials there to help dissipate that energy. [00:22:44] Craig Dalton: [00:22:44] Yeah. That resonates with me. And it's, it's hard to visualize in a conversation at times for the listener potentially. But if you think about that, just the, I think the pillow analogy works for me where it's just progressively becoming more and more supportive as my head is unfortunately impacting the ground or dirt, wherever I'm riding. [00:23:01]Brad Waldron: [00:23:01] And, a lot of your impacts are small. And so you don't even get into the part, but it has to really, get harder and harder to stop that big hit. And that's my kind of, my complaint with the way that our testing is that, we're only testing for those big hits. [00:23:16]When we have, a lot of hits, we're actually hurting people by doing it the way we're doing it. So w we just got to look at it from all aspects, rather than just. Th there's one test that we do in the test lab. Yeah. [00:23:27] Craig Dalton: [00:23:27] I managed to ring my own bell, this pandemic on a gravel ride. So I've it's resonating with me that having a look, it wasn't a super devastating crash, but I had one of those impacts that I definitely rung my bell. [00:23:41] Definitely like maybe it was not concussed, but needed to be escorted home by a friend. [00:23:47] Brad Waldron: [00:23:47] Some level of brain trauma happened there. It might've been like, but something happened. Yeah. It happens at a surprisingly low amount of G-forces and that's why I keep talking about, we need to start managing those impacts from all levels, not just from the highest levels. [00:24:06] Craig Dalton: [00:24:06] Yeah. And you said that you said before, like the testing is just very. With the tests, one thing, and it's easy to design around that one thing without really thinking about the athlete and the impacts. [00:24:17] Brad Waldron: [00:24:17] Yeah. Our tests are based on tests that were done in, in, in 1973 where we dropped cadavers on their heads and measured for skull fracture. [00:24:27] Cause we didn't know enough to measure the brain trauma. And at that time we terminate that it took 300, G's a helmet. It head took 300 GS to crack the school. So that became. Where that 300 GS came from it's cracking your skull, and that was fine at the time, but we've moved on. We have better technology and people are trying, people are trying to make changes. [00:24:46]People ask me about MIPS and I always say, I respect them. What Dr. Haller did was taught us about rotational forces. And we've learned a lot about those rotational forces. I happened to have a different philosophy on how to manage those. Then what MIPS does, because I want to start with something softer next year, head, they use a slip plane thing that is between your head and the EPS that needs. [00:25:12] Yeah, I was going to [00:25:12] Craig Dalton: [00:25:12] say, I think a number of listeners might be familiar with MIPS as a technology because it has been pretty heavily marketed and it's that little plastic frame inside the helmet that is designed to move. Yeah. [00:25:23] Brad Waldron: [00:25:23] Yep. Yes. And in my test it works. It's a technology that, that works. [00:25:28]Again, I, it, I think there's another way to attack it and we do by using something that crushes more immediately and then it gets off the rotation, but I'll even go beyond that. Forget my systems, my low density layers versus MIPS versus somebody else's. What I found in my tests at the university of Strasburg and that dynamic research and other labs that we use our own labs is the lower you can make the foam, the lower density. [00:25:56] You can make the foam the better it performs in rotation as well. So that salt. What's off your shit next to your head [00:26:05] Craig Dalton: [00:26:05] keeps coming back to that, Brad, doesn't it [00:26:07] Brad Waldron: [00:26:07] really what it comes down to, it's not as simple is that right? Otherwise we just put something, we go use those old ProTech helmets that just, had the soft stuff in it. [00:26:14]Those bottom out and they do bottom out at a low number you're in trouble. So we have to, we're trying to manage, all the impacts and that's, what's hard. I had somebody at MIPS. Tell me once. Those are two different helmets and I'm like, You guys invented the anti-rotation thing. [00:26:29] We're smarter than that. We can do this, just different philosophies. Yeah. So [00:26:33] Craig Dalton: [00:26:33] all this culminated recently in the grit helmet, coming to market, is there anything you want to mention about that helmet that we haven't covered? [00:26:40]Brad Waldron: [00:26:40] Yeah. The grit was it, there's pressure that pressure. [00:26:45] There's a lot of requests from our distributors, especially in Europe that. So look at the road side of things. I'm I'm a dirt guy through and through. And we the grit got the name. We actually started, the name was called the nickname was the dirty road. And we saw that as something that was much more Cali. [00:27:04] Then if we said, oh, we're going to go try and put a helmet on it on a tour de France rider. We got a couple of helmets that are in that category that they the UNO and the grit, the UNO is like a hundred dollar helmet. It's nice. It was actually designed by Hildegard Mueller. [00:27:20] Hilgard was the head of design for JIRA for, he was a Gero for 20 years. I don't know how long he was head of design, but. And then, and he freelances now and he helped us with that design. Because as you know is primarily amount biker. And when the lights, gravity a lot our line had led, leaned that way for a long time. [00:27:38] And then the grit was designed by Alan O Kimora who I've worked with quite a bit. And he's former bell specialized worked on several specialized road helmets. But we really worked on these thinking more towards the gravel market than the road market, because it fit us and who we are more than you're saying, like I said, we're going to, we're going to go sponsor. [00:28:03] I was like saying sky because they're dead and they're not a team anymore, but it's just, something like that and more to, to what we are. Yep. [00:28:11] Craig Dalton: [00:28:11] And you certainly have some great athletes riding the helmets on the gravel scene, former guest and friend of the pod. Amanda Nauman is a great friend of Cali's. [00:28:21] Brad Waldron: [00:28:21] She's just super chill and rides like a monster. You know what she did at the XL. Just shows that and, just a great attitude and somebody that's fun to just watch and see her progress. [00:28:33] Craig Dalton: [00:28:33] Yeah. Yeah. It was a great racing debut for the helmet. For sure. [00:28:37]Brad Waldron: [00:28:37] Appreciate that. [00:28:39] Yeah. [00:28:39] Craig Dalton: [00:28:39] Cool. Brett, I appreciate the overview. I hope the listener got a bit out of this in terms of the type of helmet tech that they should be looking at. I think I'm probably guilty of not looking at my helmet enough and saying, Hey, it's time for a new one time to replace it. So this is a good reminder, this conversation to to think about what's hanging in the garage. [00:28:58]Brad Waldron: [00:28:58] Yeah. Do you want to keep that thing for us, especially if you're using it a lot. And it's not saying that it's not always has to be a Cali there's other helmets, there's other people making helmets they're out there like me that. Give a shit that want people to do well. [00:29:11]We have our philosophy and like I said earlier, I drink my Kool-Aid. I think what we're doing is right on and on target. But yeah, make sure that you're, taking a look at what you're putting on your [00:29:19] Craig Dalton: [00:29:19] head. Sure. And I'll make sure that the listener knows how to find you. [00:29:23]Brad Waldron: [00:29:23] I appreciate that. [00:29:24]Craig Dalton: [00:29:24] So that's it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you learned a lot more about helmets than you did prior to listening. I know I did. [00:29:33]It's an area. I probably should be thinking a little bit more about given the state of my current helmet. [00:29:38]Thank you for spending a little bit of your week with me this week. If you're interested in giving us any feedback or joining our community, please visit the ridership it's www.theridership.com. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

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Ready to Get Your Mojo Back - Ravi Rajcoomar and Perry Gladstone

Play Episode Listen Later May 17, 2021 61:00

Does everyone go through a transition mid-way through their careers? My guests Ravi Rajcoomar and Perry Gladstone join us today to help figure out where your mojo went and how to get it back. Ravi Rajcoomar is a Heromaker and he loves bikes. His life's work is to work with individuals and organizations to create their MoG - Moment of Glory and lasting legacy. He is a recognized leader in the brand strategy, experiential event, content, athlete, and product marketing space. He has produced award-winning sports marketing events and broadcasts on six continents for nearly every major action and adventure sport, from Red Bull’s live broadcast properties to the X Games and both the Summer and Winter Olympics. His experience has helped lead some of the world’s best brands to deeper engagement with their audience and clients including Red Bull, IOC/USOC, BMC Software, Polaris, Specialized, CAA, USA Cycling, Toshiba, Seagate, Zipp, Niner, IMG, Interbike, Cannondale, Octagon, ISL, Clif Bar, WME and ESPN. Perry Gladstone has a unique ability to see and articulate our greatest opportunities for success. With a boatload of experience and success across multiple industries, he has guided business leaders, rock stars, innovators and disruptors, international aid, and developing countries around the world. Before formalizing his advising career, Perry founded ten influential companies in the action sports, entertainment and media industries. He is the author of the critically acclaimed, FAST & HOT; How To Open Hearts, Win Minds and Create a Better Life in Business, & co-founder of the SOMOS Foundation of Costa Rica. Website

Episode #55 - People for Bikes Vice President Ravi Rajcoomar

Garagecast - All Things Retail

Play Episode Play 21 sec Highlight Listen Later Feb 9, 2021 51:54

Ravi Rajcoomar has produced award-winning sports marketing events and broadcasts on six continents for nearly every major action and adventure sport, from Red Bull’s live broadcast properties to the X Games and both the Summer and Winter Olympics. His experience has helped lead some of the world’s best brands to deeper engagement with their audience and clients including Red Bull, IOC/USOC, BMC Software, Polaris, Specialized, CAA, USA Cycling, Toshiba, Seagate, Zipp, Niner, IMG, Interbike, Cannondale, Octagon, ISL, Clif Bar, WME and ESPN.

Learning Across Industries: Lessons from Harley-Davidson for the Cycling Industry

NBDA: Bicycle Retail Radio

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 9, 2020 48:41

What do Lycra and leather have in common? An enthusiastic, loyal customer base… composed primarily of white, male riders... Pat Hus, former director of Interbike, interviews bicycle and Harley-Davidson retailer George Gatto about what bicycle retailers and manufacturers can learn from Harley-Davidson. You’ll hear how Harley supports retailers through education and incentive programs that encourage good business decisions among their dealers. Gatto also shares how this brand that once attracted a primarily white, male customer base has created an inclusive marketing and engagement strategy to attract and serve diverse new riders. Support the show (https://www.nbda.com/articles/donation-form-pg511.htm#!form/Donate)

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036: Meet designer, entrepreneur, stylish bike commuter, and co-founder of Po Campo bags, Maria Boustead

The Joyride Podcast!

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 11, 2018 41:26

Joyriders, Meet Maria! An industrial designer and daily bike commuter since college, Maria wanted to make a product for women who were biking for transportation. She envisioned a better way to carry things on the bike that was both functional and stylish without hiding the fact that these were, in fact, bike bags. Her first Interbike told her that guys were designing products for themselves, and ever since, she's been strongly committed to the idea of equipping women with the gear that they need to integrate biking into their lifestyle and continue to improve the product in service to that mission. Topics discussed on the show: BKLYN IN THE HOUSE Po Campo Bags OBVS Ortlieb Panniers not super attractive University of Illinois Century training (sure beats a marathon!) Cycling Lake Tahoe bike tour of Germany touring the vineyards of Burgundy, France calm city riding Po Campo Retailer spotlight Bicycle Habitat B.F.F. Bikes New for 2018: BUBBLES! Irving backpack pannier Belt Bag 15% off discount code: Joyride (valid through May) Discount codes ARE case sensitive. League of American Bicyclist's National Bike Summit (March 5-7) PO CAMPO is throwing down the Gauntlet for the National Bike Challenge!! May through September. Words of wisdom: entrepreneurs, prepare for the long haul! Big thanks to Maria! Make sure you check out Po Campo online and connect with Po Campo on Instagram and Twitter. Tag us in a story if you enjoyed the show! Coming up on the Bike Love Calendar: Swift Stoked Spoke Series (Seattle): February 28, March 28 Cycle Oregon Joy Ride: June 9 World Naked Bike Ride: June 23 Cycle Oregon Weekender: July 14-15 Seattle-to-Portland: July 14-15 WTFbikexplorers summit (Whitefish, Montana): August 16-19 Cycle Oregon Classic: September 8-15 Friends, you know I believe in the transformative power of the bike, in our personal lives, our communities, and the world at large. I would be super grateful if you'd leave a rating or review in iTunes, Stitcher, or via whatever method you listen. It helps more gals find the show, and I believe the more stories we share, the more women who ride, we make this world - both our internal and external worlds - better with every revolution. Also, I read 5-star reviews out on the show because I love you. Ratings and reviews help with that, but nothing is better than a personal referral, it'd be rad if you would share the show with even just one woman who you think might dig it. Never forget, "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." Keep moving forward and until next time I hope you enjoy the ride. Forever Forward! xo ~C

Sept Q&A - Pushups, Beers, Weight Loss Plateau, CX World Cups

Consummate Athlete Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 26, 2017 44:06

pushup, beer, kabush, weight loss, cyclocross, Intervals Q & A Episode with questions from the listeners. Today Molly and Peter discuss their trip to the first two cyclocross world cups and cross-vegas (and Interbike). Topics are Geoff Kabush hitting the record for beer-50pushups-beer in under a minute (he mentions this in the episode with him a few weeks ago). We talk about weight loss after you plateau but still want more and how to do max intervals (pacing). Check out the Show Notes at www.consummateathlete.com Subscribe and Rate on Itunes (please!) - https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/consummate-athlete-podcast/id1100471297?mt=2 Support the Podcast via Wide Angle Podium -> http://wideanglepodium.com/category/consummate-athlete/

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Ep #003 - How to Bring Influencers to your Event w/ PressCamp's Lance Camisasca

The Build Cycle

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 23, 2017 41:57

After working for Interbike for years, PressCamp founder Lance Camisasca jumped ship from the largest cycling tradeshow in North America to launch a smaller, more intimate event. PressCamp pairs brands and journalists in one-on-one meetings that not only allow better stories to be told, but also for relationships to be built that advance both party's interests. The concept proved so popular, ECRM purchased it but kept Lance and his team on to continue to run it and grow the concept to serve other industries. We talk about how the PressCamp concept came about, how he wrangled the necessary interest from both sides of the table to encourage more brands and more journalists to show up, and the power of a good checklist and timeline. If you're thinking of launching an event or event management business, there are plenty of great lessons to be learned from our conversation. For complete show notes, find this episode's companion blog post at TheBuildCycle.com.

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DCR53 Vegas Baby, Vegas

The FIT File with DC Rainmaker and GPLAMA

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 29, 2016 31:18

In this episode, Ray talks about his trip to Interbike where an amazing number of product launches DID NOT take place. Ray will tell you everything you need to know about trainers, so that you can make your final fall purchase decision. They also answered a few listener questions. Links: Ray's Amazon Link. Visit Ray's website to ask a question and read in-depth product reviews. Rate this Podcast on iTunes and leave a review.

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DCR21 The Girl

The FIT File with DC Rainmaker and GPLAMA

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 25, 2015 31:39

In this edition, Ben interviews The Girl at Interbike in Las Vegas. To hear more of Ben, subscribe to TRS Radio. Rate the DC Rainmaker Podcast on iTunes and leave a review. Visit Ray's website for in-depth product reviews and much, much more.

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DCR20 Interbike

The FIT File with DC Rainmaker and GPLAMA

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 18, 2015 56:00

In this edition, Ben and Ray hit Las Vegas for the Interbike trade show. First Ben and Ray chat about some big news and announcements and then Ben hits the tradeshow floor to bother the vendors. Subscribe to TRS Radio. Rate the DC Rainmaker Podcast on iTunes and leave a review. Visit Ray's website for in-depth product reviews and much, much more.

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Open Mic with Mike Creed Ep 52 Ben Day

Open Mic with Mike Creed

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 10, 2014 91:22

THIS EPISODE Mike catches up with Team United Healthcare's Ben Day, an Aussie time trial specialist and all-around great guy. They chat about Ben's past team adventures, what flying standby means to the uninitiated, living and racing in Poland, having your wallet stolen by hotel staff (something Mike knows all too well after Interbike last year), and other random and fascinating topics.Enjoy this great conversation with one of the most interesting and versatile guys in the pro peloton today.As always, Open Mic with Mike Creed is presented by The Colorado Cyclist, Mike's very first professional cycling team in 1998. Thanks to everyone at Colorado Cyclist for their support of Mike over the years, and a big thank you to them for stepping up and sponsoring the podcast and offering $50 gift cards to our Twitter contest winners. Please visit their newly redesigned website at coloradocyclist.com and give them a follow on Twitter at @Co_Cyclist to show your appreciation for everything they do for us.We're also grateful for the continuing partnership with Chris Smith and Lazer Helmets. Every podcast we'll be giving away either a Lazer helmet or pair of Lazer sunglasses. All you need to do is mention @LazerHelmets or @Lazer_Vision on Twitter with a clever tweet that conforms to the week's contest rules. If your tweet is chosen, you'll win a Lazer item.

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FredCast 215 - Interbike 2014

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2014 58:06

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Episode 215 Interbike 2014 Week of September 8, 2014 Don't forget to buy your FredCast socks (thefredcast.com/store)! SPONSORS • Jenson USA • Lynda.com • YOU! Thank you for your Donations! SHOW TOPICS: • Upcoming Event: Outerbike 2014 • Interviews from Interbike 2014 with: • The Innovators: Nikola Innovations • The Crowd Funders: Fix It Sticks • The Wrist IDs: Epic ID • The Power Meters: Brim Brothers • Product Recall: Orbea Recalls Avant Bicycle Due to Fall Hazards The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

FredCast 215 - Interbike 2014

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 21, 2014 58:06

THE eFREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Enhanced Edition Episode 215 Interbike 2014 Week of September 8, 2014 Don't forget to buy your FredCast socks (thefredcast.com/store)! SPONSORS • Jenson USA • Lynda.com • YOU! Thank you for your Donations! SHOW TOPICS: • Upcoming Event: Outerbike 2014 • Interviews from Interbike 2014 with: • The Innovators: Nikola Innovations • The Crowd Funders: Fix It Sticks • The Wrist IDs: Epic ID • The Power Meters: Brim Brothers • Product Recall: Orbea Recalls Avant Bicycle Due to Fall Hazards The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

FredCast 197 - Interbike Inspiration

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2012 33:20

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Episode 197 Interbike Inspiration September 19, 2012 SPONSORS JENSON USA AMAZON.COM YOU! Thank you for your Donations! FEATURES • Interview with Angela Torres from RTC and Viva Bike Vegas • Interview with Allison Jones, US Olympic Medalist • Interview with Lt. Col. David Haines, US Army Ret, from Ride2Recovery The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 197 - Interbike Inspiration

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2012 33:20

THE eFREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Enhanced Edition Episode 197 Interbike Inspiration September 19, 2012 SPONSORS JENSON USA AMAZON.COM YOU! Thank you for your Donations! FEATURES • Interview with Angela Torres from RTC and Viva Bike Vegas • Interview with Allison Jones, US Olympic Medalist • Interview with Lt. Col. David Haines, US Army Ret, from Ride2Recovery The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 185 - Interbike 2011 Highlights

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 27, 2011 48:10

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Episode 185 Interbike 2011 Highlights September 26, 2011 This week's show is sponsored by JensonUSA, Epic Planet, and by listeners like you Thank you for your donations! In this week's show we have highlights from my InterbikeTV interviews at Interbike 2011. Included are interviews with BMC, Hammer Nutrition, Hincapie Sportswear, Rotor Bicycle Components, Dr. Allen Lim from SecretDrinkMix.com, and Cerevellum. Plus, Podsafe Cycling Music courtesy of CadenceRevolution.com The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 185 - Interbike 2011 Highlights

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 27, 2011 48:10

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Episode 185 Enhanced Edition Interbike 2011 Highlights September 26, 2011 This week's show is sponsored by JensonUSA, Epic Planet, and by listeners like you Thank you for your donations! In this week's show we have highlights from my InterbikeTV interviews at Interbike 2011. Included are interviews with BMC, Hammer Nutrition, Hincapie Sportswear, Rotor Bicycle Components, Dr. Allen Lim from SecretDrinkMix.com, and Cerevellum. Plus, Podsafe Cycling Music courtesy of CadenceRevolution.com The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 169 - About Face

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 25, 2010 56:34

The FredCast Cycling Podcast Episode 169 October 24, 2010 IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK 1. Interbike, in Reversal, Moves Back to Las Vegas 2. New York City Settles with Critical Mass Cyclists 3. Boris Bikes Have Over 1 Million Journeys 4. Levi's Grand Fondo Had 9,000 Participants 5. CicLAvia Has 100,000 Participants 6. Product Recall: Hive Carbon Brakes 7. Rodale Publishing Moves Mountain Bike Magazine into Bicycling Magazine 8. Pro Cycling News RESULTS Giro di Lombardia - October 16 RANKINGS - Final 2010 World Rankings DOPING NEWS - Alberto Contador Case - Vinokourov Beats UCI in Court - Pelizotti Cleared, Now Will Sue UCI ADDITIONAL RIDER/TEAM/RACE NEWS - Amgen Tour of California 2011 Route Announced - Tour de France 2011 Route Announced - Giro d'Italia 2011 Route Announced - Schleck Team Signs Daniele Benatti and Jens Voigt - Lance Armstrong News - Mark Cavendish feels "abused" by his team 9. Sal Ruibal No Longer on the USA Today Cycling Beat 10. Helmet News 11. Stolen Bikes Found Online 12. How Beer Saved a Cyclist's Life Podsafe Cycling Music - Thanks to Cadence Revolution! Along For The Ride by Lisa Bouchelle The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 169 - About Face

Two Johns Cycling Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 25, 2010 56:34

The FredCast Cycling Podcast Enhanced Edition Episode 169 October 24, 2010 IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK 1. Interbike, in Reversal, Moves Back to Las Vegas 2. New York City Settles with Critical Mass Cyclists 3. Boris Bikes Have Over 1 Million Journeys 4. Levi's Grand Fondo Had 9,000 Participants 5. CicLAvia Has 100,000 Participants 6. Product Recall: Hive Carbon Brakes 7. Rodale Publishing Moves Mountain Bike Magazine into Bicycling Magazine 8. Pro Cycling News RESULTS Giro di Lombardia - October 16 RANKINGS - Final 2010 World Rankings DOPING NEWS - Alberto Contador Case - Vinokourov Beats UCI in Court - Pelizotti Cleared, Now Will Sue UCI ADDITIONAL RIDER/TEAM/RACE NEWS - Amgen Tour of California 2011 Route Announced - Tour de France 2011 Route Announced - Giro d'Italia 2011 Route Announced - Schleck Team Signs Daniele Benatti and Jens Voigt - Lance Armstrong News - Mark Cavendish feels "abused" by his team 9. Sal Ruibal No Longer on the USA Today Cycling Beat 10. Helmet News 11. Stolen Bikes Found Online 12. How Beer Saved a Cyclist's Life Podsafe Cycling Music - Thanks to Cadence Revolution! Along For The Ride by Lisa Bouchelle The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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Two Johns Podcast for 9/24/10

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 25, 2010 92:00

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FredCast 167 - Interbike is Here & Moving

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 20, 2010 41:41

The eFredCast Cycling Podcast Enhanced Edition Episode 167 September 19, 2010 ANNOUNCEMENTS - Second Annual Bike Tweetup at Interbike - Hosting Interbike TV Again This Year! IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK 1. Confirmed: Interbike Moving to Anaheim in August 2. Kristin Armstrong Now a Mom - Twitter Announcement - Considering a Return to Cycling 3. Man Hits and Kills Cyclist, Then Shoots Self 4. Pro Cycling News - RESULTS - Vuelta a España (August 28 - September 19) Vincenzo Nibali Gained Lead on Stage 14 Nibali Wins Overall, Farrar Wins Final Stage - US Pro Cycling Championships Taylor Phinney Wins Time Trial by 0.14 Secons Over Levi Leipheimer Ben King Takes The Road Championship - NEXT MAJOR UCI EVENTS UCI Road World Championships (September 29 - October 3, Geelong, Australia) Giro di Lombardia (October 16) - Radio Shack Gets an Invite - ADDITIONAL RIDER/TEAM/RACE NEWS Kim Kirchen Wants to Return to Racing Riis: Andy Scleck Has "A Lot to Learn" Fabian Cancellara is Leaving Saxo Bank - Criticized for Leaving Vuelta - DOPING NEWS Sentjens Retires After Admitting Doping Oscar Sevilla Suspended for Doping Lance Armstrong Probe - French Authorities Ready to Cooperate - Phone Conversation Provided to Authorities 5. Bike Thief in Japan Peddles Over 1,000 Km on Stolen Bike 6. Bike Thief in Taiwan Arrested, Then Given Bike by Police Podsafe Cycling Music (thanks to Cadence Revolution!) Sometimes by Jess Braun ( Artist's Web Site) The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 167 - Interbike is Here & Moving

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 19, 2010 41:41

The FredCast Cycling Podcast Episode 167 September 19, 2010 ANNOUNCEMENTS - Second Annual Bike Tweetup at Interbike - Hosting Interbike TV Again This Year! IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK 1. Confirmed: Interbike Moving to Anaheim in August 2. Kristin Armstrong Now a Mom - Twitter Announcement - Considering a Return to Cycling 3. Man Hits and Kills Cyclist, Then Shoots Self 4. Pro Cycling News - RESULTS - Vuelta a España (August 28 - September 19) Vincenzo Nibali Gained Lead on Stage 14 Nibali Wins Overall, Farrar Wins Final Stage - US Pro Cycling Championships Taylor Phinney Wins Time Trial by 0.14 Secons Over Levi Leipheimer Ben King Takes The Road Championship - NEXT MAJOR UCI EVENTS UCI Road World Championships (September 29 - October 3, Geelong, Australia) Giro di Lombardia (October 16) - Radio Shack Gets an Invite - ADDITIONAL RIDER/TEAM/RACE NEWS Kim Kirchen Wants to Return to Racing Riis: Andy Scleck Has "A Lot to Learn" Fabian Cancellara is Leaving Saxo Bank - Criticized for Leaving Vuelta - DOPING NEWS Sentjens Retires After Admitting Doping Oscar Sevilla Suspended for Doping Lance Armstrong Probe - French Authorities Ready to Cooperate - Phone Conversation Provided to Authorities 5. Bike Thief in Japan Peddles Over 1,000 Km on Stolen Bike 6. Bike Thief in Taiwan Arrested, Then Given Bike by Police Podsafe Cycling Music (thanks to Cadence Revolution!) Sometimes by Jess Braun ( Artist's Web Site) The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 141 - VeloKid

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 2, 2009 63:36

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST Episode 141 December 1, 2009 This episode of The FredCast Cycling Podcast includes an interview with Al Painter from Integrate Performance Fitness on strength training for cyclists, an interview with Bill and Liam Flanagan by Ken Wallace at VeloKid.com, an interview from Interbike with SKS Germany, and lots of cycling news. SPONSORED BY: • Audible • Listeners Like YOU! IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK • Philadelphia Crack Down Gets Serious • Wyoming Man Could Get 45 Years in Death of Cyclist • Lance Loses Another Bike • Astana Gets 2010 ProTour License • Garmin-Slipstream Has a New Name • Inmates Fixing Bikes for Kids • Idaho-style Law Could be Coming to Utah • Guardian UK Says "Beware the iPod Zombies" • London Police on the Lookout for Naked Cyclist • Marijuana Smuggled in Bicycle Tires THIS WEEK'S FEATURES • Interview: SKS Pumps (from Interbike) • Interview: Strength Training for Cyclists • New Web Site: VeloKid.com • Interview: Bill and Liam Flanagan PODSAFE CYCLING MUSIC • The Mother Hips "One Way Out"   The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

FredCast Video Special - 2009 Interbike TV

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 24, 2009 7:13

THE FREDCAST CYCLING PODCAST VIDEO SPECIAL September 23, 2009 Interbike TV LIVE FROM THE SHOW Featuring Cannondale. For more, go to interbiketv.thefredcast.com The FredCast Cycling Podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License.

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FredCast 136 - No News, Interviews & Reviews