Podcast appearances and mentions of jo luehmann

Jo Luehmann shares her journey from being a pastor to deconstructing her faith, focusing on the financial challenges and mindsets that shaped her path. The episode also explores strategies for overcoming financial anxiety and reclaiming autonomy after leaving high-control religious settings.Resources Mentioned:Psychology of Money by Morgan HouselYour First Million by Arlan HamiltonYour Journey to Financial Freedom by Jamila SouffrantKeeping Finance Personal by Ellyse FulmoreWe should all be millionaires Rachel RodgersThe Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Debelli Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel KahnemenTo follow Jo's work: @joleuhmann across all platforms!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

Sit down with Jonathan Youssef for a compelling conversation with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett, authors of The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is. Why It's Destructive. How to Respond. This discussion examines the pervasive and unsettling movement of faith deconstruction sweeping churches today. Whether it's affecting your loved ones, straining relationships, or stirring doubts within you, this episode provides crucial understanding and guidance.Together, we will try to understand the core aspects of the Christian deconstruction movement, its origins, the meaning of deconstruction hashtags like #exvangelical, and why it attracts so many people, particularly those disenchanted with traditional church teachings.Alisa and Tim offer strategies for thoughtfully and empathetically engaging with those questioning or abandoning their faith in Christ, emphasizing responses grounded in a biblical worldview.Whether you are seeking to support a loved one in turmoil, understand the dramatic spiritual changes around you, or find answers to your spiritual doubts, Alisa and Tim provide valuable insights and answers that promise to enlighten, challenge, and encourage.Listen and gain tools and confidence to address deconstruction with clarity and love, ensuring your faith and relationships can withstand the challenges of these transformative times.ALISA CHILDERS is a popular speaker and the author of Another Gospel? and Live Your Truth and Other Lies. She has been published at the Gospel Coalition, Crosswalk, the Stream, For Every Mom, Decision magazine, and the Christian Post.TIM BARNETT is a speaker and apologist for Stand to Reason (STR). His online presence on Red Pen Logic with Mr. B helps people assess flawed thinking using good thinking, reaching millions monthly through multiple social media platforms.After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/CandidAlso, join the conversation on our social media pages:Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpodInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpodTwitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpodTRANSCRIPT:This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 246: The Deconstruction of Christianity with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett.Jonathan: Today, we have quite a special situation. We have two of my favorite guests that we've had in the past, Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they have teamed up and have written a book together, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why It's Destructive and How To Respond. Thank you guys so much for taking the time. We're all across the nation and different nations here. Thank y'all for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.Alisa: It's great to be back with you.Tim: Yeah, it's good to see you.Jonathan: Well, I think before we jump in we've Alisa and I and Tim and I, we've separately had conversations around this area, but I love the way you break down your book into these three parts: Exvangelical, Deconstruction, and Hope. But just again for those who are new to the terminology, let's define deconstruction and separate it and define exvangelical, and then we'll talk about the reasons for the writing of the book.Alisa: Which one you want to take, Tim, exvangelical or deconstruction?Jonathan: You each get one.Tim: All right. I'll start with deconstruction. You know this is a tough definition to nail down. In fact, this took quite some research and quite some time. In fact, I actually changed my mind on how I was using the term. At least initially when I started teaching in deconstruction a few years ago, I thought there was a way that we could use the word deconstruction in a healthy way and there was a way we could use it in an unhealthy way. And we were seeing this kind of thing happening, especially on social media. You'd have people like Lecrae or John Mark Holmer or other notable evangelicals using deconstruction as a healthy way, here's a good way to do deconstruction.Tim: That's right. And on the other hand, there's a whole lot of this other stuff that's very unhealthy. That's how we originally thought until we did serious research into what's going on in this deconstruction space, especially on social media where we're seeing a movement or an explosion. And what we saw there was that there isn't anything healthy. In fact, there are defining characteristics of the deconstruction explosion that are unbiblical and just completely wrongheaded.So at the end of the day, where we landed on this—and again, we say this is the hardest sentence we wrote in the book, but here's where we landed on our definition of deconstruction: It's a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring Scripture as a standard. And all those words are important in that sentence. So it's a process, but it's a very specific kind of process. It's a postmodern process. Whereas where you would think (this is what many claim) is that they are on a search for truth, what we're finding is that it's not really about truth—in fact, by postmodern we mean that there isn't a goal of truth; there's actually a denial of objective truth, that objective truth cannot be known. And so there's that on the one hand. On the other hand, you have this rejection of Scripture as an authority. And so when we put those things together, we think these are the defining characteristics of what deconstruction is all about. And we can kind of go into more detail and give some examples of where we've seen that, but that's a starting point.Alisa: Right and then the exvangelical hashtag is often used synonymously with and at least in conjunction with that deconstruction hashtag. And it's a little bit of a tricky hashtag because it doesn't simply mean, at face value, no longer evangelical. But it's not like you have people who were raised Presbyterian and they become some kind of more liturgical Anglican or something and they use the ex. They are not using the exvangelical hashtag for that. What we're seeing with the exvangelical hashtag is that, first of all, it's very difficult to define what evangelical is. And that's kind of a word like deconstruction that's defined in a hundred different ways. So there's the Bevington's Quadrilateral that characterizes the evangelical movement under four pillars of personal conversion, emphasis on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, biblical authority, and evangelism. And yet, if you ask people in the deconstruction hashtag what is evangelical, those beliefs are in the background for sure, but what they primarily see is God, guns and Trump. It's what is perceived in their minds to be this unholy alliance between evangelicals and the political right. And so it's all kind of mashed together, along with things like spiritual abuse and purity culture and conservative politics. It's all kind of this ball that all gets kind of mixed together and then it all gets thrown out as exvangelical. And so in some cases they're conflating evangelical with the historic Christian gospel, and in other cases, they might actually be throwing out some cultural things that are Americanized that aren't necessarily a part of the gospel. And it can be kind of like a mix of both. But it's important like when Tim talked about the shift of authority, its' like the only thing that matters for the exvangelical and deconstruction is that they are leaving behind what they perceive to be toxic beliefs. And so as best as I can analyze are it's any belief outside of yourself that you would be asked to submit to, surrender to, kneel to that is not necessarily something that resonates with you inside.Jonathan: Interesting. So you're the ultimate authority, which goes to the deconstruction definition of Scripture being the authority.Alisa: I do think it boils down to that, yes. Jonathan: Do you find this is a uniquely American phenomenon? I don't even know if phenomenon is the right word to use there.Tim: That's a really good question. I think that there's a few reasons why we're seeing this in particular in North America. It's happening in Canada, too, not just the U.S. I think that we're seeing a culture that's dominated by a philosophy of relativism on the one hand and then on the other you have this kind of explosion of social media within the last decade or so. And I think bringing those two things together in particular—And then maybe a third thing, and that is the American church and how we have, I think, neglected the life of the Christian mind. We used to say the church teaches what we believe really well but not why we believe it. So us apologists, we're trying to train up the church in why we believe these things. But to be honest, when you look at the research now that's coming out in the last couple of years, people who identify as evangelical, I think it was in our book we say 42 or 43 percent of U.S., so Americans, who identify as evangelical do not believe that Jesus is god. They think He's just a good moral teacher. Hold on a second! So these people identify as evangelical but they're not Christian. I mean, this is crazy! So you have, on the one hand, Christians, people who are professing to be Christians because, hey, I was born in America or I was born in Canada. That's the default, right. It's like in your genetics or something. Yeah, so you have that on the one hand, so there's no real understanding or foundation for what real, orthodox Christianity is. Then you have this dominant culture, I mean, it's coming from every direction, this idea of relativism. It's literally the water that many of your young people especially are swimming in, and they don't even know they're wet. And then of course you have social media, this platform now, where I have access to, I mean, the world. I have access to memes and TikToks and these, for many, they think these are compelling arguments. I can't tell you how many times I'm sitting here at my desk and I get a message coming in. It's a meme or a TikTok video that someone sends me and says, “Hey, can you respond to this? I don't know what to say. I don't know how to respond.”And I watch the video or I read the meme and I think, Really? This is not a good argument. It's not even close. Usually, it's not even an argument. And so when you bring all those things together, I think that makes America susceptible to the deconstruction movement for sure.Alisa: there's also the Trump element in the American version of deconstruction. It's just such a huge part of that that is so uniquely American. But as Tim said, I think deconstruction is happening everywhere. I know progressive Christianity is happening. Even in the Middle East I've gotten emails of people wanting my book to be translated into Farsi because it's even coming into the Middle East. So where there is progressive Christianity, there is dn. But I suppose it's just taking on maybe a different type of flavor here in America.Jonathan: Well, and even the Trump effect has ripple effects around the world to where people in foreign nations see Trump and think, Oh, well, he's their definition of Christian. Let's talk about the prevalence. Because I think there are some who think this is just happening out in large cities or this is not affecting everyday people. There can be a disconnect to just how much influence this is having. And it can be people who are watching and consuming these things that aren't even talking about it with their family because they know how the family will react when there's genuine questions and doubt. So tell us a little bit about what you're seeing with the prevalence of both of these concepts entering into homes.Alisa: Well, I think we're in a different world now, so this is an interesting anecdotal piece to this. When I go out and speak I'll often ask an audience, “How many of you have heard the word deconstruction in the context of faith?” And the older the audience, the fewer the people have even heard of it. And yet, when I go speak to students it's 90 percent. But it blows my mind. Even at women's conferences where women … the ages are 20 to maybe 60, 70, you might have 20 percent raise their hand that they've even heard of the concept.And so what I mean by we're in a different world is decades ago you had to get a book deal. There was major exposure with ideas. And so I think that there are some of us who are still living in that world and don't realize the prevalence of some of these ideas on social media. For example, we have many posts documented in our book where it's somebody that nobody's ever heard of an probably never will know their name, but their video has millions of views, hundreds of thousands of likes, and if you think about the reach of that versus somebody that you might have seen on TV decades ago or maybe in a Christian bookstore even or in the catalog that they would send out, that's a lot of people. But social media can reach so many people with a message where it's not even necessarily surrounding a particular personality.And so I think the prevalence of it is on social media, so someone's exposure to it is probably going to be directly related to what types of social media they have and how often they engaging with it. Tim: And the other element to this, the older folks who have exposure to it, is because they have a loved one, usually a younger loved one, who is going through it and now we're just, as we label it, this is what it is, deconstruction, they say—it clicks. Oh, that's what my nephew is going through, or my grandchild or my son or my daughter or whatever. So it does kind of filter up to that older generation. They're seeing the aftermath usually. It's like why is my grandson no longer following the Lord? Well, it turns out they went through a process called deconstruction. Jonathan: Well, and I imagine some of the reactions can be unhelpful, and that's why, again, I think it's important that books like yours are out there and podcasts and stuff that you guys are producing is out there, so that there's a heightened awareness but also a helpful response. Because we do have a response and a calling, but we need to make sure we're doing it in a right and biblical way.I wonder if we could come to the origins of this. I know Carl Lawson writes in the foreword in your book about technically the beginning is, when Demas, who fell in love with the world, abandoned Paul and the ministry and the faith. But I mean in this particular area, is it with social media? Was there a particular person or is it just postmodernism in general? Where do you find your origins to these movements?Tim: Well, it's true that we could trace this thing past Demas. We can go all the way back to the Garden of Eden, always. But just more recently in the 1960s we see postmodern philosophers like Derrida in particular, who is the father of deconstruction. Now of course, his application of deconstruction was to textbook religion. He argued that objective meaning, objective truth, could not be known, and that there was no actual truth, so the reader could import just as much meaning as an author of a text. And what we traced in our research is we saw there is a connection here. In fact, we discovered a book by John Caputo, who is a scholar and actually follows Derrida and applies Derrida's philosophy not just to textbook religion in general, but in fact, to Christianity. And he wants to do this postmodern move even on the words of Jesus. And so he gives application in his book. What would Jesus think about, say, homosexuality today? Well, He would look around the world and see loving, monogamous relationships and He would be affirming. Even though Derrida says, yet, in the first century, no, Paul and Jesus, they had a certain view on this, but we're going to bring new meaning to the text. In fact, the way Derrida describes this is Derrida says the text actually never arrives at a meaning. In fact, he has this analogy of a postman delivering a letter, and it's like the letter never arrives at its destination, and in that sense, Christianity has not arrived. There is no set fundamental beliefs that you need to hold to—in fact, they are always changing, never arriving.So this is kind of the history, and of course there's lots of people who don't know who Derrida is, they don't know who John Caputo is, and yet, they are taking a page out of his playbook. They are thinking in terms of that kind of postmodern philosophy as they look out at religion. It's not what is actually true corresponds to reality; instead, it's there is something else going on. Oftentimes, it's personal preferences are the authority, or maybe they're looking at the culture and saying, “Yeah, look, the culture is more accepting of sexuality and so we ought to be too.”Jonathan: Yeah, just like in the days of Noah. Help us understand who are some of the primary voices behind this today? I know we talked about how when you're on social media it can be a lot of nameless, faceless people who just have an opinion and they want to create an argument or a non-argument that has an effect on people with their emotions. Are there any that are writing or have some influence as, you know, even by way of warning people, hey, be careful of so-and-so because it tends towards this trajectory?[24:42] Alisa: Well, I would say there's, in my mind, and Tim might have some others, but in my mind there's one figure in particular that is, in my view, the most influential, although he's not primarily promoting quote/unquote “deconstruction,” is Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr, his ideas, his universal Christ worldview, is—Interestingly, when I was researching the coaching and therapy sites, I found all the ones I could find online of people offering services to coach you through deconstruction or even offer you therapy through your deconstruction—and by the way, these therapy and coaching sites are not helping you to remain a Christian; they are not interested in where you land, they just want to help you along your subjective journey.But even the ones that aren't claiming to be Christians, there's always this recommendation—I looked at all the book recommendations, and there is a Richard Rohr book there every single time, even among those that don't claim to be Christians. And so what Rohr has done, I think, is, especially among people who want to retain the title Christian but might be more spiritual but not religious, or some sort of a New Age-y kind of Jesus is more of a mascot kind of thing, Rohr has really given them a worldview to put in place of what they've turned down. And he does talk about deconstruction in his book, Universal Christ, and he says it's like the process of order, disorder, and then reorder. Well, that sounds good at face value. You're taught a certain thing, and then something messes it up and as an adult you have to do some digging and some work and then you reorder. But that's not exactly what he's talking about. His order stage is what he calls “private salvation,” your private salvation project. In other words, Rohr doesn't believe in personal salvation, he believes in universal salvation, he's a universalist. So he's saying that's like the kindergarten version of faith, this kind of Christianity where you have personal faith and you have this God of wrath and judgment. All of that just needs to be disordered so that ultimately you can reorder according to his worldview.Now I bring up Rohr because he's so influential. I mean, he makes his way into so many of the deconstruction conversations. But beyond Rohr, it's tough because there can be platforms that swell up and get really big, and then I've seen them shut down after they have maybe 20,000, 30,000 followers, even up to hundreds of thousands of followers. I've seen several of these platforms just kind of get burned out and they shut down. So it's hard to say, but I would say Derek Webb, Caedmon's Call, is an important voice in there. You've got—Well, Jon Steingard was for a while when he ended up shutting down his YouTube, but he was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson. He was commenting for quite a while. Jo Luehmann is pretty influential. Who else, Tim?Tim: Well, there's—I put them in different categories.Alisa: The NakedPastor.Tim: The NakedPastor for sure. So there's guys who, and gals who have deconstructed and posted that they've deconstructed online. So that would be someone like a Rhett McLaughlin, who 3 million people watched his video four years ago. He's been keeping people updated every year; they do kind of an anniversary thing. That sparked so many people on their own deconstruction. Now what's interesting about Rhett is he didn't necessarily tell you how toTim: Yeah. And that was enough for some people to say, “Maybe I should do this too.” Now there's other platforms out there, and all they do is criticize Christianity, or they mock Christianity. Those are big on TikTok. I mean, there are massive platforms that have half a million followers and millions of views, okay, and I could go down and list some of those for you. But the point is they're not necessarily talking about deconstruction and the process, but they're just saying, “Hey, here's what you guys believe, but here's my mocking, here's my criticism.” Then there's this other stream, and this is the NakedPastor or Jo Luehmann and others who aren't just mocking Christianity or criticizing Christianity but they're trying to advocate for a certain kind of process, okay, and that's where you're going to get a little more detail on how this deconstruction thing works out. And so they've been, in fact, Jo Luehmann and the NakedPastor, David Hayward, and—Jonathan: Joshua Harris. Didn't he do a course through that?Tim: That's right. Joshua Harris, when he—again, on Instagram. That blew up. There were like 7,000 comments in response to him just posting, “I'm no longer a Christian.” And you could see the responses, and I'm telling you, there were many who said, “This post is what set me on my deconstruction journey.” So there's at least three different categories of influencers out there, and they're all playing into the same thing, deconstruction, but they all are coming at it from a different angle.Jonathan: Alisa, for those who are familiar with your story, how is this movement different from the path that you were on?Alisa: This is a great question because I've actually changed my mind on how I talk about this. So over ten years ago I had a faith crisis that was really agonizing. It was years long. I landed fairly quickly in going through some apologetics arguments, knowing that God existed, but just the doubts that would nag at me were just years of this agonizing research, reading thousands of pages of scholarship, just trying to figure out if what I believed was actually true. And it was propelled by a progressive pastor. I didn't know he was progressive at the time, but I was in a church where there was this class going on and it set my friends, a bunch of my friends, into deconstruction. And so when I wrote my first book about my journey, I actually called the process that I went through deconstruction because it was horrible, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It was agonizing and I had to kind of de-con-struct. If you just take the word at face value, and then build back from the beginning.But interestingly, when I would go online and I would talk about my deconstruction, deconstructionists would come on and say, “No, you didn't deconstruct.” At first, that was so confusing to me. I was like, “Well, were you there?” I mean, it was like this horrible, agonizing process.Jonathan: I'm the ultimate authority here.Alisa: Yeah, right, I know. And they said, “Well, you didn't deconstruct because you still hold to toxic theology. You still have toxic theological beliefs.” And that's when I realized, oh, okay, so this isn't just—even though I knew it wasn't a good thing, I knew it was a horrible thing because, again, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but it wasn't about truth. It's actually about leaving behind these beliefs that they think are toxic. And let's say you completely do hard work of years of studying and you decide that you are a sinner and that Jesus did die on the cross for your sins, that the Bible is God's Word and that what Jesus claimed about Himself is true and that He proved it by resurrecting from the dead, if you hold to those beliefs, along with the biblical sexual ethic, you have toxic theology and you've got to go back to the drawing board and start over.So that's when I realized, okay, there's more to this. And so I actually correct myself—Jonathan: There's a goal.Alisa: Yeah. I correct myself in the new book and say I don't actually use the language of deconstruction to describe what I went through because I was on a truth quest. I wanted to know what was true, whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not. In fact, what was interesting in the class I was in where all my friends ended up deconstructing, and I mean all that I know of, there might be two that I lost touch with that maybe didn't, but most of the people that I know of did. And everything in that class was all about what resonates with me. I mean, we would … they would talk about Bible verses and say, “Well, that just doesn't resonate with me,” and they would toss it aside. And I was like, “You can't just do that.”And so I didn't deconstruct, and so I corrected my language on that and really changed my mind about what I think it is. And I think what I'm hoping to set the example for others is people who are wanting to use the word because it was trendy—because I really had a thing about that. Why am I using the word? Why am I hanging onto the word? And I had to realize there's no reason for me to use that word. Because what I did was search for truth. I tested all things, held fast to what is good—that's biblical. I don't need a postmodern word to describe that. And so that would be my journey with this word and kind of my relationship with it is that I've changed my mind; I didn't deconstruct. It was—Jonathan: You re-entrenched.Alisa: Yeah, they just think I circled some wagons and found some people to agree with me. Which is so interesting to me, because they weren't there. And that's the thing. Pete Ens, I've seen the comment from him, “Oh, Alisa doesn't know … she doesn't understand deconstruction, she doesn't get it.”And I'm just like, “Were you there? You weren't there. You have no idea what I went through.” But it's like they're so quick to say, “You have to respect my lived experience,” but they are the first ones that will not respect your lived experience if you land at historic Christianity for sure.Jonathan: That makes sense. You guys have spent hours on places like TikTok researching what leads people to deconstruct and what they all have in common. What are the common threads that you've noticed through that?Tim: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some of the factors that we've noticed that kind of launch people into a deconstruction are things like doubts, unanswered questions. Virtually all these stories have some instance of suffering or pain, and we've all been through that. There's church hurt, there's spiritual abuse. Now we've got to be careful about that a little bit, because sometimes it's a real abuse that happens, of course, we would all want to say that is horrible and we stand against that. That is not of God. And so when a pastor engaged in that kind of thing, he needs to be held accountable for it.But then on the other hand there is what we might call perceived abuse or perceived harm. And this is where things like teaching the doctrine of hell. In our research, we found that that's called, you know, teaching your kids, it's child abuse. If you say that Jesus died for your sins, that's considered toxic and abusive to tell someone that, yet that's the gospel message. So we want to make sure that we distinguish between those things.Of course, we just mentioned earlier about politics and Trump and all that stuff. So there's these different elements that you'll see peppered within these stories. Now we want to be quick to say that not all deconstruction stories are alike. In fact, they are often very unique, and that's because every single person is unique. So if you've heard one deconstruction story, then you've only heard one, you haven't heard them all. But there are these common threads.One question that we asked when we were doing our research is why is it that two people can grow up in the same house, they can go to the same church, the same youth group, they have the same parents, they experience some of the same trauma, suffering, whatever, and yet one will deconstruct and the other maybe becomes an even more faithful believer. What's going on there?And what we found is it comes down to—at least one element—a faith foundation. What is it, what is your faith foundation? And of course, this is going to be different for different people, and what we need to be asking, we're challenging the church to ask, is what does it mean to be a Christian? Oftentimes, you know—and this is a question I was asked when I was in university by my friends who were not believers, “Tim, why are you a Christian?” And I honestly shot back, “Because my parents are Christians.” That was my first response. I knew that ain't right. That was embarrassing. I'd grown up in the church. I'd done all the church stuff, and yet I did not have a strong Christian foundation and a strong Christian faith. And so I, at that point, was very susceptible to this kind of deconstruction, right, because I could—if TikTok was big at that time, I could have watched a video and, “Okay, I'm outta here. This has been refuted.”So I think that all those things that I mentioned earlier can make you a good candidate for deconstruction, but they don't have to lead you down the path of deconstruction. This is why it's really, really important that the church needs to be helping to develop and disciple Christians so they have a strong foundation so when that crisis hits, they are able to stand firm in their faith. So let me ask this question. There may be a simple answer. Is the faulty foundations that people are building on essentially, I mean, is the answer anything but Christ? Is it in the institution of the church or in the leadership in the church or your favorite Christian singer? Is it … do you find those the main threads that came back?Alisa: That's an interesting question. I think, you know, when I think about foundation … Because I was trying to think through this question even within my own context. So one of my sisters was not a Christian until she was an adult, and she would say that openly; that's part of her testimony. She grew up in church. We grew up in the same home, we had the same discipleship, the same youth pastors, pretty much the same experiences growing up, same environment, and yet our foundation was different because I was a devoted Christian as far back as I can remember. I mean, I don't even remember a time where I didn't absolutely know that the Bible was God's Word and Jesus was who He said He was. And yet, for my sister, she grew up in the same environment but had a totally different foundation. she did all the things, she cooperated with it, but She never personally trusted in Christ.Jonathan: Going through the motions, yeah, okay.Alisa: Yeah. And she may not have even realized that. You might have asked her at 12 years old, “Are you a Christian,” she might have said, “Well, yeah,” but she didn't know that she wasn't until she actually got saved as an adult. And so I think the foundation is more of a personal thing. The way I see it is the level of understanding you  might have had. We have a lot of this sort of seeker-sensitive model that's over the past few decades has gotten really big. I'm not saying it's wrong to have a large church or try to be sensitive to people who are seeking, of course. But some of those seeker-sensitive and megachurch models really watered-down the gospel, really sacrificed discipleship for numbers. And I think that that has resulted in a lot of people growing up in churches that maybe—And I'm not … We don't speculate on this question in the book, were they really saved, were they not because we don't know the end of their story either, but I do think even right now we have a lot of people in our churches who maybe may not be Christians because they may not be getting the gospel, they're not getting Bible teaching. And they might like the community and even like and believe certain things about it, but everybody's foundation is maybe going to be a little bit different. That's kind of how I see it.Jonathan: Well, I mean, not to steer us theologically, but I mean it has to be the work of the Spirit in the life of a person, and that's all in the sovereign timing of the Lord. I wonder if sometimes in this American evangelical mindset from an older-generation perspective we have this understanding that my children should be Christians and they should be following the ways that I direct. And then I should start seeing spiritual fruit in their life. Like, well, I don't know. I mean, is there something wrong with that happening at a later point? Just thinking from a parental, a parent's perspective. Maybe I've gone into the weeds there a little bit.Alisa: Like Tim said, each deconstruction story is unique. I would say it like this. Every deconstruction story is unique and yet they're kind of all the same, too, in certain points. I know we're getting in the weeds a little bit, but as a parent, I wouldn't want to push my kid to say they believe something they don't really believe. I'd want them to come to that on their own. And that might come later, certainly, yeah.Jonathan: And there's a level of you want your child to be honest with you, and I think sometimes we can put a false expectation on your child to be going to be at a certain place when they're just not ready for that yet. And so what they're actually deconstructing is deconstructing whatever that false view—again, as you said, there's different stories of deconstruction. But ultimately, if you deconstruct and never return back, to your point, there was never faith to begin with. You experienced the benefits of a covenant community or whatever it is. As Hebrews says, you were tasting but you weren't of that, you know … not all Israel is Israel.Do you think it's potentially because parents are unwilling to engage in the hard questions of the faith? Or do you think perhaps there is always just people who are going to rebel against Christ? Is it all of the above? In your research, I don't know if you're working with people who have gone through it and then interviewing them. Are you tracing things back to a particular point? I think we all want to say, “Where does the blame lie?” Are you finding that?Tim: I think it's all of the above. A lot of these stories have unanswered questions. In fact, Alisa did a debate on Unbelievable with Lisa Gunger, and she makes this really tragic statement where she said, “Questioning was equivalent to sinning in our church. If you questioned the pastor, you questioned his teaching, whatever, you were in essence sinning.”So confessing to your questions is confessing your sins. And that mentality, I mean, we wrote a whole chapter called “Questions,” In that chapter, what we're trying to do is a little bit of a wake-up call. We're trying to rattle the church a little bit and say, “Hey, we can do better. We ought to be the place where people feel safe to ask their questions and express their doubts.” And I hope that everyone listening to this hears that. Tim and Alisa are not against questions—in fact, we're apologists. We travel around and we're doing our best to answer questions, so we're not against that, and we want the church to be a safe place.And I mean we give an example of Tim Keller. At the end of his sermons, his services, he would do like a 40-, 45-minute Q&A time where he would just stick around and, okay, come on up. And in New York City, where you have like diversity of people, diversity of views coming in, you're going to have skeptics, you're going to have atheists, you're going to have whatever coming in, asking their hard questions. And when you think about it, the way we have our churches structured, at least most of them, there isn't really a Q&A time. That would be like a very special thing. Maybe every few months the pastor will take questions or something. Jonathan: A special treat. Yeah, yeah.Tim: That's right. But for the most part, that's not there, and that can give a lot of people the impression that questions aren't allowed here. You just listen to what's spoken, do what you're told, and that's the end of it. So I think that's part of it. But you also mentioned, yeah, maybe there's a rebellious heart, too. You can't read the Bible very far without seeing someone who has a rebellious heart. So we—Tim: That's right. Just a couple of pages in. And so you end up seeing that this is a realistic element that we need to be talking about, too, and that's why we devoted an entire chapter to the deconstructor, because there are things about the deconstructor that are important to be aware of from a biblical anthropology perspective. And so there certainly are people who are seeking answers, and we want to be there to provide answers. But then there's also these questions out there that are seeking exits. And you see lots of those. You see them in Scripture and we see—When you've got Richard Dawkins saying, “Well, who made God?” Richard Dawkins should know better, you know. When my four-year-old asks that question, okay, fair enough. But when you have an academic from Oxford asking that question as if it's legitimate of the Christian God, something else is going on.Jonathan: I remember Keller teaching on Job, and he says Job is filled with questions, right, but the issue was that he never left God. He didn't say, “I have questions and now I'm going to go over here and ask them.: But he kept asking the questions of the Lord in his particular situation. And he was saying that questioning can be a good thing because it's, as we talked earlier, all truth is Christ's truth, so there's nothing to be afraid of. You're not going to get an answer where it should cause difficulty. But rather, you're sticking close to the source and you're going to get your answers within reason. But rather than going—And it's interesting, because that's what these TikToks and all these things are creating is new avenues for you to go and ask questions and find a story that resonates with you, right, that's the big terminology that we were using earlier. So that resonates with your story and how you feel, and then where did they land? How do we invite this sort of cultivating an openness for asking of questions? Is it let's have a Q&A session at the end of church? Is it, you know, we need to start training our parents to have them understand that your kids asking questions is a good thing because they're coming to you versus no, everything is fine and I'm going to go to YouTube and find the answer because I think you're going to be mad at me or whatever it is. Help us think through that from a church perspective. Alisa: Well, I think starting with the parents is a great place to start because if we can train parents to be the first person to introduce some of these difficult topics to their kids, we know statistically the first person to introduce the topic will be viewed as an expert in the eyes of the child. So when we as parents are the first people to talk to our kids about gender and sexuality and all of these different things—and promoting an environment where we're not weird about it, we're not acting awkward about it, then we want to be the Google. I want to be Google for my kids. And that means I'm going to be really honest when they ask their questions and sometimes give more information than they wanted.My daughter, she jokes with me like “I know I'll get a straight answer from you with whatever I ask.” And so maybe even training parents to ask your kids questions like “Hey, what's your biggest question about God?”And parents don't need to be afraid of what their kids say, because it's perfectly fine to say, “Wow, I've never really thought about that. Let's think that through together,” and then go do some research and continue to engage with your kid about it. But I think in the home, if we can start there, that's a great place. And then the church can help come around parents with even youth groups doing Q&As and pastors doing Q&As. I think that's a huge way to promote that environment from the home, all the way through the church culture.Jonathan: Okay, let's do a little sort of engaging with others segment here. What would you say to those who are seeing their loved ones go through deconstruction or exvangelical. What would you say to them? Buy our book.Tim: Yeah, that. And I mean the first thing that I would say is stay calm. It can be not just earthshattering for the person going through deconstruction, but the loved ones of those deconstructors it's often earthshattering. We talk about this in the book, actually. To find out that my kids who I've raised in the church come to me and say, “Dad, I don't believe any of this stuff anymore, I'm out,” that would be crushing.And I would want to remind myself: stay calm. I've heard so many stories, and they're actually horror stories, where a child comes to a parent and says, “I'm deconstructing” and the parent just loses it. “How could you do that?” And they overreact, and of course that's not going to help. That's the first thing.I would want my kids right away to know that they are loved, period. That this doesn't change my love for them. It's not “I love you, but let me fix your theology.” It's “I love you, period. You're still my daughter. I'm still your dad. That's not going to change.”And then another thing just to add is say thank you. It must have taken a lot for that individual, if they come to you and share that they've deconstructed, it must have been a big deal to do that. So I would say, “Thanks for sharing that with me and me being the person that can be there for you.” So those are introductory things. Obviously, relationship is going to be so important. It's not necessarily that you're going to be able to maintain the relationship. We've heard stories of people getting no-contact letters from their loved one saying, “Your theology is toxic. I don't want anything to do with you and so we're done. Here's my no-contact letter.”But if they're willing to stay in your life, then we want to do whatever is possible to  maintain that relationship without compromising truth. Truth is absolutely necessary. But you want to be in that relationship as long as possible, because that's where you're going to be able to have probably the best impact.Its' interesting you brought up Job earlier. And Job's comforters started on the right track. They were there and they sat with Job—Jonathan: Silent.Tim: Silently for seven days. And then it was when they started to open their mouths they got themselves into trouble, and I think we can learn something from that. So we want to hear, “Hey, tell me your story.”One of the first questions I would want to know is, “What do you mean by deconstruction?” If they're using that word, I want to know if they just mean, “Hey, I'm asking some questions. Hey, I don't know if I believe in this view of creation, baptism, and maybe I'm changing.”Okay, that's different than what we're seeing online, okay, this idea of a postmodern process. So I want to nail down, okay, what are you going through and what kind of process or methodology are you using to go through it? I want to be able to identify those things.And of course, in the book we talk about this idea of triage. If you have a gunshot wound to the head but a broken finger, they're treating the gunshot wound to the head, right, the thing that's more serious. And in a similar way, once you understand where this person's coming from, you've heard their story, you're going to be able to do some triage. Okay, what's the most important thing in this moment? Is it that I answer all these questions that I'm having? Is it that they just need me to be with them because they are going through something? And I think that's important because sometimes we miss the mark. Especially as apologists, oh, let me answer that question. Let's go for coffee. I'm going to fix your theology and then we'll be back on track.Jonathan: We're going to fix the problem, yeah.Tim: That's likely not going to happen. And then finally, I would just say continue to pray. We cannot underestimate the power of prayer. If someone is going through deconstruction, what they need is God. They need the Holy Spirit. And so let's petition God on their behalf. Let's pray that God does whatever is necessary to draw that person back to Himself.Jonathan: All right, now thinking for the person who is considering deconstructing their faith. And again, that could be a myriad of different positions along that path, but what are the things you would want them to know?Alisa: Well, so here's what I would say. If someone is considering deconstruction as if it's like an option, “Oh, maybe I'll deconstruct my faith,” and there's no crisis that's actually throwing you in deconstruction, I would say you don't need to do that. There's no biblical command to get saved, get baptized, and then deconstruct your faith. You don't need to do that. If there are some incorrect theological views that you—maybe you grew up in a very legalistic stream of Christianity. Maybe you grew up in the Mormon church. Maybe you grew up as  Jehovah's Witness and you need to go to Scripture, make Scripture your authority, and then get rid of beliefs that were taught to you that are not biblical. I want you to know that that is a biblical process and that is what you should do.Jonathan: This is what we call disentangling, right, that we were talking about.Alisa: Yes. In our book, we would call it reformation. But yeah, Jinger Duggar calls it disentangling. I don't care what you call it. I would just really encourage you to not use the word deconstruction, because deconstruction is a very specific thing that isn't about getting your theological beliefs corrected according to the Bible, and so we want to be reforming our faith according to Scripture. And so if you need to disentangle, as Jinger would say, or reform beliefs that were unbiblical, please do that. And that can be a very long process. It can be a difficult process. But if someone is listening who's maybe propelled into deconstruction through some church abuse or whatever it might be, my encouragement would sort  of be the same. It's actually good for you to get rid of beliefs that led to abuse, that Jesus stands against abuse as well. But I would just encourage you not to get sucked into this sort of deconstruction movement, because it's not based on absolute truth. It's not based on Scripture. And it's not going to lead you to any sort of healing and wholeness spiritually. And so whether you're just considering it intellectually or you're just interested, I would resist it. And that's … There's going to be well-meaning evangelical leaders that will tell you you can deconstruct according to the bible, but I don't think you can. And so let's keep our language and the way we think about this biblical rather than bringing in a postmodern concept that just clouds the … muddies the water and causes confusion.Jonathan: All right, this is good because this goes to the next level. What do you say to those who believe that Christianity is toxic or patriarchal? What's your word to them? And then the follow-up to that would be for believers. When do we engage and when do we not engage with people who are kind of promoting that sort of ideology?Tim: I would want to ask some questions, like what do they mean by toxic, what do they do they mean by patriarchal, to nail down those definitions. Are they appealing to something objective or are they appealing to something subjective based on their own personal preferences? I think it's really important that we start with what's true before we can look at whether or not something is toxic, or harmful, or whatever. In the book, we give the example of you stumble upon someone who's kind of beating on someone's chest, and in that moment it may look like they're being abused, but you come to find out that actually they've had a heart attack, and that person is not beating on their chest, they're doing chest compressions, doing CPR. That totally changes how you see that action, right? It goes from being, hey, that's harmful and toxic to, wait, this is lifesaving, this is lifegiving. So I think that's really important, when I see a deconstructionist talk about how hell is causing child abuse, I want to know, first of all, if there is such a place as hell. For them, it's not even on the table; it's not even the question, right, because it's a totally different philosophy, a totally different worldview. I want to look at is this true?I give the example of I told my kids not to jam a knife into the wall socket. Well, why not? Because there's electricity in there and it could electrocute you and kill you. So any good parent warns their kids about that. Or touching the hot stove, these kinds of things. Is it harmful for me to tell them not to do that? Everyone agrees, no, that's not harmful; it's not toxic. Now, it would be toxic if there was no such thing as electricity. If I'm just playing these games where I'm trying to torment my kids so they're scared to do whatever, to actually make them terrified of the stove or something. No. Okay, the reason that they need to be careful around this hot stove or not stuck, stick stuff in the wall outlet is because there are dangers. And if hell really is this kind of danger, then we ought to appropriately talk about this issue. Look, I'm not talking to my three-year-old about eternal conscious torment. You know what I'm saying? Obviously, there is some appropriate when the time is right. Sexuality, we appropriately talk with those … about those issues with our kids. But we do talk about those things, and that's because they're true, and that's were we start.Jonathan: That sort of answers a little bit of the next question, which is that you both dedicated the book to your children. And we're, I think, we've kind of addressed it in terms of being available. But in light of everything that you know and all that is going on with deconstruction and the questions and the struggles of the next generation, how are you taking this and applying this as you raise your children?Alisa: Well, I know that this research has definitely affected how I parent. In fact, I went through a phase in the early stages of the research where I would hear myself saying things, and I was like, “That's going to end up in their deconstruction struggle.” And I found myself almost becoming way too passive for it was probably just a couple of months when the research was so intense, and it was new. And it was like, oh my gosh, all these things i'm saying to my children is what people say they think is toxic and that's what they're deconstructing from.And then I swung back around and I'm like, no, it's my job as a parent to teach my kids what's true about reality. Just because maybe culture things that 2 + 2 = 5 now doesn't mean that I need to cower and say, “Well, you know, I'm not going to be too legalistic about 2 + 2 + 4.” No. 2 + 2 = 4. You can believe what you want, but this is what's true. And so I actually, you know, what I've started to do is tell my kids “Look, it's my job as your mom to teach you what's true about reality. And what you believe about God and what you believe about morality is in the same category of science, math, logic. These are facts about reality. It's my job to teach you. Now, you are the person who chooses to believe it or not.”And so what I've tried to do is really engage my kids in conversations, but knowing also that statistically they might deconstruct one day. I have to leave a lot of that to the Holy Spirit, and also to try to model to my children what a real believer looks like. I think that's a huge, a huge element in parenting is letting our kids see us repent to them if we sin against them, in front of them. Reading our Bibles on a regular basis together, praying together as a family. Not just being Sunday Christians. Here in the South it's real easy to just be that Sunday Christian and then—Jonathan: Haunted by the ghost of Christ.Alisa: That's right. And then you just live like He doesn't exist the rest of the week. And that's the thing about the Bible Belt. Certainly, people aren't acting  … like doing pagan sacrifices during the week. They are pretty much good people. But it's just not relevant to their lives until Sunday comes around. And just being different from that in front of our kids is something I've really tried to engage. And just engaging their questions without pushing them, I think, is a huge thing. Like you mentioned earlier, is letting them have their own story and their own journey. And even as my sons wrestled with the problem of evil for about two years really intensely, I really didn't want to push him. And I just validated that that's a good question, that's an honest question to ask, and let's talk to the Lord about it, let's think through some things. But trying not to push him to just settle really quickly so that he can work this out for himself, with discipleship and the guidance of parents. But that's one of the ways it's really affected my parenting.Tim: That's so good. Yes and amen to all of that. Jonathan: Okay, I second that. All right, give us some hope. This is your part three. Part three. This can all sound pretty scary and off-putting and you need to block it out.Tim: It really really does seem hopeless, especially if you spend any time kind of typing in hashtag deconstruction or hashtag exvangelical. I mean, I would go into my office here and start working and writing and I'd come out and I'd just be like … my mood has changed.Jonathan: Spiritual warfare, for sure.Tim: My wife knew it, oh yeah, my wife saw it and my kids could see it. It was really discouraging. And so I feel for those parents who have that loved one who's going through this, and many do, so we wanted to make sure we end the book on a hopeful note. And one of the things that we were thinking about—in fact, I think it started with a phone call. I called Alisa, and I remember I was sitting at my dining-room table and I had a sermon that I was going to give on deconstruction. And I'm like, Alisa, I need to end this thing with something hopeful because it is so … And I had, actually, a parent reach out to me before I gave the sermon, saying, “I really hope that you're going to give us some hope.” Because they have a child themselves, a young adult, who's deconstructing. I'm thinking, okay, what is it Alisa? Help me out here.And we just started talking back and forth and so I don't know how this came up, but eventually we started thinking about Easter weekend, right, we're coming up to it. Of course, you think about what was going on Friday night. It's like Peter's there; he's seen his Savior, his Messiah being crucified, and his world is turned upside down. We could just imagine what that was like to go through this traumatic experience. And then, of course, it jumps to Sunday and Sunday brings with it resurrected hope, right? And you have the angel shows up, tells the women, you know, go and tell His disciples AND Peter. Like Peter really needs to hear this. Friday night, he denied the Lord three times. It was a bad night for Peter. But he's going to receive this resurrection hope on Sunday.Well, we actually titled the last chapter “Saturday” because we think that a lot of people are living in what could be described as a Saturday. Now again, we're not told much about that particular Easter Saturday, so we can only speculate, but really, I mean, what kind of questions were the disciples, in particular, Peter, asking? Were they starting to doubt some of the things that they had been taught, maybe like trying to explain away some of the miracles they had seen? It wasn't supposed to happen this way, was it? And so there's self-doubt, there's all this trauma that they've experienced. Now of course, Sunday was just around the corner. We think that, look, if that hope can come for Peter, then it can come for you and your loved one, too, right? We don't know what that Saturday looks like. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be just one 24-hour day. It could be months down the road; it could be years down the road; but we think this is a message. Because if it can happen for Peter, it can happen for your loved one. And I think that can move us from a state of “This is completely hopeless, what good can come from this? How can this be undone,” to a state where, no, we can be hopeful. Jesus rose from the grave after being dead. And when that happened, Peter's faith is restored. “Do you love me?” He says, “Yeah, I love you.” Three times, kind of like paralleling the three denials.Jonathan: Exactly.Tim: And then the Church is built on this confession. So I mean that brings me hope, and hopefully it brings hope to others who are going through this.Jonathan: Just one final question. Have you seen anyone who's been restored out of this?Alisa: You know what? I have heard a few stories, but these are people that have platforms. So I have several people that are part of my Facebook community who have said they deconstructed into progressive Christianity but have been brought back. I have had a couple of people on my personal podcast who had deconstructed. One is a guy name Dave Stovall. We actually tell his story in the book. He was in the band Audio Adrenaline, and he deconstructed into progressive Christianity and then a local pastor here in town discipled him back to the historic Christian faith and had all these difficult conversations with him and engaged him in conversation. So I think we are seeing some. We're not seeing a lot yet, but I think a lot of the stories maybe are just more private, where people aren't necessarily shouting it on social media. But yeah, the Lord's at work, absolutely.Jonathan: That's good.Tim: Yeah, I can echo that, too. We've been … A I travel around teaching and speaking, I'll have people come up to me and usually you get a lot of people saying, “Thanks for hits information. I had no idea this was going on.” But this one guy, he said, “I went through deconstruction.” And he said, “It was when you put up your definition of deconstruction that you had me because that”—Alisa: Wow!Tim: I thought he was going to push back and be like, “But that's not how you define it. Instead, he said, “You had me as soon as you put up your definition.” Why? “Because,” he said, “that exactly described the process that I was going through.” And yet, here he was on that Sunday morning at church kind of completely kind of turning a corner and willing to say, “No, I'm willing to follow the truth wherever it leads.”And that led him to affirming that the Bible is God's Word, and now he's trying to align his beliefs. And of course, that's a journey we're all on. I have false beliefs right now; I just don't know which ones are false, right? I'm always trying to correct my mistaken beliefs and make them align with Scripture. And praise the Lord, that was the journey he was on.Jonathan: Oh, amen. Well, the book is The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why It's Destructive and How To Respond. Alisa Childers, Tim Barnett, thank you, guys, so much for being on Candid Conversations. I've really enjoyed our talk today.Alisa: Me, too. Thanks so much.Tim: Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thanks for having us.Jonathan: God bless.

Jo Luehmann takes us to church in this episode!! She preaches about why she refuses to abandon herself, how each of us are called to be liberators, why she ultimately left Christianity, the possibilities for beauty inside of the idea of “church,” her advice to those who remain Chrisitan, and creating safety for people to listen to their intuition.  Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised (former) pastor with a masters degree in ministry and theology. Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing church, theology, spirituality and faith, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively

I bonded with Jo Luehmann last year over our shared love of comedian Atsuko Okatsuka, and I even had the honor of introducing Jo to Atsuko. Two epic women for sure. In this bonus episode while I'm on vacation, Jo and I talk about our books while sitting on a bench in Central Park just a stone's throw from one of Turmp's towers. Jo's forthcoming book, Predatory God is due out next year, and she's currently in the editing phase, which can be a soul-crushing part of the writing process. From the haunting voices of our past selves to the patriarchal and White-dominated world we all live in, it can be tough to fight through our traumas to write a book. But Jo is doing it. She even wrote one of the endorsements for my book. As we talked about our books, we get deep into our lives and our processes, and I hope you enjoy this candid, vulnerable conversation between to friends and writers. Chapel Probation is part of the ⁠Dauntless Media Collective⁠ Join the ⁠Dauntless Media Discord ⁠for more conversation with all the podcast communities. Scott's book, ⁠Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University⁠ is available now! Music by Scott Okamoto, ⁠Jenyi⁠, ⁠Azeem Khan⁠, and ⁠Shin Kawasaki⁠ and ⁠Wingo Shackleford⁠ Join the ⁠Chapel Probation Patreon ⁠ to support Scott and for bonus content.  Join the ⁠Chapel Probation Facebook⁠ group to continue the conversations. Follow Scott on ⁠Instagram⁠ and ⁠Twitter⁠ and ⁠Substack⁠ You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at ⁠rscottokamoto.com⁠ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/support

The Woman Beings interview "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" Author Joshua Harris. Josh shares an incredible journey - from Christian book bestseller to pastor to agnostic thought leader - and all about his process of choosing to end the publication of his books, offer a public apology for the harm they caused, and ultimately leave the Christian faith. Find out what he's up to on this week's episode! Follow Josh https://joshharris.com/ https://www.instagram.com/harrisjosh/ Resources Falling Upward by Richard Rohr: http://bit.ly/3IDwf4v Alice Greczyn: https://www.instagram.com/alicegreczyn/?hl=en Vanessa Fernandez: https://www.instagram.com/van_fernan/?hl=en Jo Luehmann: https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/?hl=en Lauren DeLeary: https://www.instagram.com/laurendeleary/?hl=en Linda Kay Klein: https://lindakayklein.com/ Tara Tang: https://www.instagram.com/misstarateng/?hl=en Coach Yeamah: https://www.yeamah.com/ Jamie Lee Finch: https://jamieleefinch.com/lets-work-together If you want to help support our content, feel free to shop these affiliate links from brands we love! Girlfriend Collective: https://girlfriendcollective.pxf.io/jWdG4Z --- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/womanbeingpodcast/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@womanbeingpodcast Website: https://www.womanbeingcommunity.com/

Jo Luehmann nos ayuda a entender cómo el cristianismo ha sido usado como una herramienta de opresión a lo largo de la historia, y porqué el evangelicalismo es supremacía blanca disfrazada de religión. Redes de Jo: Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/02PHQkYQ07rbvDpGaABBwG?si=cb825ca1bec84f0d Instagram: instagram.com/joluehmann/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/joluehmann Síguenos en nuestras redes: instagram.com/lacizanapodcast twitter.com/lacizanapodcast facebook.com/La-Ciza%C3%B1a-Podcast-102495042021852 Únete al servidor de discord: https://discord.gg/fW6GvXPKBr Envíanos tus audios a: anchor.fm/lacizana lacizanapodcast@gmail.com Tema musical: "On my own" - https://soundcloud.com/cristhopper/on-my-own De Christhopper Armenta - https://soundcloud.com/cristhopper2019

We're back with our podcast pals Jordyn and Sara for another year-in-review! We talk about Tish Harrison Warren's terrible not-Anglican New York Times takes, God is Grey's problematic treatment of Jo Luehmann that left a bad taste in our mouths, the bureaucratic nightmare that is the United Methodist Church split, the overturning of Roe v. Wade, the amazing anthems of Maddie Zahm for us burnt-out Good Christian Girls, the chaos of Elon Musk buying Twitter, and more. We hope y'all have a Happy New Year and are so excited for what's in store in 2023! We have merch! Get your Bible Dyke Energy Tee and more here: https://www.redbubble.com/people/rtgardenpodcast/shop Our social media: @reclaimingthegarden on Insta, @RtGardenPodcast on Twitter, and Reclaiming the Garden on Facebook. Our personal accounts: @thatpunchabletheaternerd, @April_TheWriter (April is on Twitter and Insta). Also, our podcast account follows a bunch of awesome folks + podcasts in the exvangelical/deconstruction world and progressive Christian world, so if you're looking for more resources, that's a great place to start!

Today on the pod we have the honor of talking with not one but two amazing guests! Returning to the pod is the one and only Jo Luehmann along with the brilliant mind of Rabbi Mike Harvey! Many of you probably already know Jo Luehmann (she/they), who is a Colombian born and raised writer, documentary producer, and podcaster who moved to the US to get her masters degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum and teaching classes on theology and doctrine as an ordained pastor; and finding in personal and systemic ways how harmful and abusive the evangelical church is, Jo quit her job and committed to finding spirituality that wasn't abusive. Alongside her partner she started the Living Room, a non-profit reclaiming faith and spirituality as expressions that can lead us toward wholeness, healing and heaven on earth. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space where people abused in churches can be seen, heard, believed and connected to others who can offer tools in their journey toward healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. In less than 6 weeks the space grew to over 5000 people with over a thousand different reports of abuse submitted. In 2021 Jo joined a talented team of organizers, artists and developers to create documentaries telling stories from people in the margins of society so that we all can be inspired to create a better world. Their first feature film is set to be released early 2022. In her podcast, The Living Room with Jo Luehmann, and through her classes, workshops and writing; Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing faith and theology, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively. Michael E. Harvey is the Amazon bestselling author of Let's Talk: A Rabbi Speaks to Christians. An ordained rabbi, he has led congregations and served as a hospital chaplain. Rabbi Mike is passionate about social justice, interfaith cooperation, and bringing deep Jewish learning to the lay public. He has followed these passions in serving his community, including founding and directing the Interfaith Council of the Caribbean as well as directing the Interfaith Leaders of Greater Lafayette. He also serves on the rabbinic advisory council of the American Jewish Archives. When he isn't writing, Rabbi Mike can be found building community and offering a listening ear in a different kind of congregation: as a bartender in Indiana. Learn more about Mike by visiting his website https://www.rabbimichaelharvey.com/ And don't forget to follow him on Twitter: https://twitter.com/RabbiHarvey Check out Everything Jo is up to via her link tree here: https://linktr.ee/joluehmann And don't forget to follow her on Twitter and Instagram: https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/ If you enjoy listening to the show, please consider heading over to apple podcasts to rate and review us. If you really enjoy the show, we would love to see you in our Patreon.com/ThereafterPod!

In this video I discuss the aftermath since my discussion with Jo Luehmann. Enjoy! #deconstruction #progressivechristian #Jesus Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/1TohVbZFbpZsW5yubbhYm3?si=vo0ycyf-Qgme2t3e42YlAA Itunes: https://music.apple.com/us/album/womb... Subscribe & click

Welcome back and welcome to a new season of Reclaiming My Theology. This week we are kicking off our series with a primer on purity culture. In this episode, Brandi is joined by Jo Luehmann to start us off on what will inevitably be a long journey into all of this. They talk about the racialized implications of purity culture, how some core scriptures are used, and how the intersection of purity culture and bible create the mess that we currently live in. If you like what you hear please follow, leave a 5 star review, or tell a friend about the show. You can also join us on patreon at patreon.com/reclaimingmytheology 

Season 2: Episode 34 Trauma, Agency and Ethics. Working through beliefs that are contrary to everything you've even known takes a willingness to listen and be challenged. Thought-leader, Jo Luehmann has deconstructed thoroughly and is unapologetic about her findings and conclusions. Her perspective and conviction are a gift to those who are willing to consider. She cares deeply and is fighting for marginalized voices in ways most of them haven't been able to. In this episode, Jo shares her thoughts on trauma, agency and ethics. NUMA+ Ashes Mentorship Group @joluehmann

Season 2: Episode 33 Neuroscience & Theology: the answer to evil AND a system of oppression. Thought-leader, Jo Luehmann has deconstructed thoroughly and is unapologetic about her findings and conclusions. Her perspective and conviction are a gift to those who are willing to consider. She cares deeply and is fighting for marginalized voices in ways most of them haven't been able to. In this episode, Jo shares her journey into deconstruction. NUMA+ Ashes Mentorship Group @joluehmann

Season 2: Episode 32 Working through beliefs that are contrary to everything you've even known takes a willingness to listen and be challenged. Thought-leader, Jo Luehmann has deconstructed thoroughly and is unapologetic about her findings and conclusions. Her perspective and conviction are a gift to those who are willing to consider them. She cares deeply and is fighting for marginalized voices in ways most haven't been able to. In this episode, Jo shares her journey into deconstruction. NUMA+ Ashes Mentorship Group @joluehmann

Jo Luehmann is an active social media content creator for progressive Christians. Together we ask, "Deconstruction or decolonization?"Interested in organizing, activism or learning more about revolutionary communism? Tune into the Mass Struggle podcast.Amplify this content with an iTunes or Spotify rating or review and subscribe to our channel on Youtube!Follow Faith and Capital on instagram, twitter,  facebook and subscribe to our channel on Youtube.Support the show: patreon.com/faithandcapitalMake a one time contribution with PayPal: https://www.paypal.me/faithandcapitalEmail: faithandcapital@gmail.comMusic by D.C.R. Pollock and Ed RussekSupport the show

Educator and writer Jo Luehmann joins Nate and Gail to discuss her work in deconstructing and decolonizing Christianity. The conversation follows a wide range of topics, from harmful practices of the church to adoption and foster care to abortion and education.Jo:•Website | joluehmann.com •TikTok | @joluehmann•Twitter | @joluehmann•Instagram | @joluehmann•Facebook | fb.com/joluehmann•YouTube | youtube.com/c/JoLuehmannX•Patreon | patreon.com/joluehmann  ---Follow us on Twitter at @fullmutuality, on Facebook at fb.com/fullmutuality, on Instagram at @fullmutuality, and on WordPress at fullmutuality.wordpress.com. Visit fullmutuality.com for more.Support Full Mutuality by partnering with us on Patreon at patreon.com/fullmutuality or to giving a one-time gift on our Buy-Me-A-Coffee page at buymeacoffee.com/fullmutuality.Full Mutuality is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more. Join as a partner on Patreon for exclusive content! Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today's guest is Jo Luehmann. Jo and I spoke back in March this year, after arranging to chat in late January, early February, so this episode has been a long time coming.  In this conversation, you'll hear Jo talk about growing up in Colombia, her experience within evangelical circles in America, and her work discussing decolonization. In the months following our discussion, Jo became a target of many far right figures such as Matt Walsh, who rallied their followers to harass Jo. The reason was ostensibly because of a tweet on abortion; because of this tweet, Jo was relentlessly harassed and forced to resign from her position on a school board in order to curtail the continued harassment. That particular event demonstrated the way in which the far right operates, and the lengths to which they will go to destabilize the lives of those whose speech they consider provocative or offensive, even as they do so with impunity. I confirmed with Jo prior to releasing this episode that she was ok with this conversation being posted. Visit Jo's linktree to learn more about their work. Exvangelical is a production of The Post-Evangelical Post. You can subscribe to my newsletter of the same name, The Post-Evangelical Post, at postevangelicalpost.com. That's postevangelicalpost.com, because all my ideas begin as puns. You can subscribe for free, or upgrade to a paid subscription at $4/6/8 a month, and get access to ad-free podcast feeds and more. 25% of net revenue is donated. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised pastor, writer and podcaster who moved to the US to get her masters degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, and finding in personal and systemic ways how harmful and abusive the evangelical church is, Jo quit her job and committed to finding a faith that wasn't abusive. Alongside her partner she started the Living Room (LivingRoomSD.com) a non-profit reclaiming faith and spirituality as expressions that can lead us toward wholeness, healing and heaven on earth. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space where people abused in churches can be seen, heard, believed and connected to others who can offer tools in their journey toward healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. In less than 6 weeks the space grew to over 5000 people with over a thousand different reports of abuse submitted. Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing faith and theology, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively. The Living Room- http://www.livingroomsd.com Jo's Patreon- https://www.patreon.com/joluehmann Twitter/Instagram/TikTok- @joluehmann

HOA in Henderson, NV threatens man with fines for Anti-Biden Sticker, Jo Luehmann says she would prefer abortion over having a kid who gets 'adopted by white evangelicals', What could Aborted Babies have accomplished? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What does it mean to "Decolonize" your faith? On this week's Public Episode of the Post-Evangelical Podcast, Pastor Paul is joined by TikTok creator, biblical scholar and reluctant pastor @Jo Luehmann . Jo will captivate you with their deconstruction story and experience as a Colombian immigrant in the American evangelical church. Don't miss Jo's message about the beauty of a society which truly embraces biblical principles. Also, don't miss our bonus podcast as we talk with Jo about her idea that Christianity forces us to "gaslight ourselves." You won't want to miss that episode, which only available to those signed up in the Pastor Paul Community at Pastor-paul.com (https://paulswearengin.podia.com/support.) There's no cost to sign up, but you can subscribe to help financially support the work of Pastor Paul, if you are able. @Jo Luehmann #TikTokPastor #evangelicalish #ReligiousRightReligiouslyWrong #PostEvangelical #NonPartisanEvangelical #postevangelical #GodIsNOTmadAtYou #MindRenewal @PastorPaul_TikTok

CW// misogyny, abortion, racism, trauma, religion, politics, sexuality, sexual assault, purity culture This week we were so happy to have our special guest, Jo Luehmann join us to talk through her journey, decolonization, antiracism, neuroscience, and how to make conservatives angry. She is so much smarter than us and we are more than okay with that. In our news segment, we talk about Roe v. Wade and the Supreme Court's leaked draft. Bonnie shares a run-in with Kenneth. And lastly, Jake makes a statement about the state of all things. And it was disturbing but funny. If you would like to read Daniel's article about Jen Buck and her book, Bad and Boujee, click here. If you would like to connect with Jo Luehmann and partner with her on Patreon, click here.

ADVERTENCIA: Este episodio tiene lenguaje explícito y, para colmo, colombiano. Si nos calificaran a los evangélicos solamente por lo que se ve a diario en las redes sociales, no saldríamos muy bien librados: colonialismo, supremacía blanca, racismo, misoginia, homofobia... en fin, los ingredientes perfectos para una debacle como la que estamos viendo que se aproxima a pasos agigantados sobre este movimiento religioso. Y si alguien sabe de pelear en redes sociales con evangélicos, esa es mi invitada de esta semana, Jo Luehmann, quien es una colombiana viviendo en Estados Unidos. Ella estudió literatura y es magíster en teología, pastora, autora y conferencista, además de mover conversaciones en redes sociales y en podcasts acerca de los problemas del colonialismo en la fe cristiana, la sanidad frente al abuso espiritual y la desintoxicación de la espiritualidad. La invité para este episodio final de la segunda temporada de Notas Sueltas y tuvimos una conversación explosiva, llena de emotividad y de historias de vivencias liberadoras. ¡Pasen a escuchar! Notas del episodio: Seguir y leer a Jo (solo en inglés): En Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/ En Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann En Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JoLuehmann En TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@joluehmann "The Living Room", podcast de Jo: https://pod.link/1604636018 Más links de interés: https://linktr.ee/joluehmann Otras cosas que mencionamos: Dorothee Sölle y el concepto de Cristofascismo: https://hmong.es/wiki/Christofascism Tráiler de "Midnight Mass": https://youtu.be/De8gxsH2IDU Tráiler de "The Midnight Gospel": https://youtu.be/oOhb4TWNKEY Tráiler de "Atlas of the Heart": https://youtu.be/BaBbd_P--JM El libro "Atlas of the Heart": https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Heart-Meaningful-Connection-Experience/dp/0399592555 Tráiler de "Journey of the Universe": https://youtu.be/oOOjwMG_twE Guía del episodio: 00:00 | Introducción 03:17 | Acerca de Jo, su camino en la fe y su historia con la teología 15:16 | Desintoxicar la teología y sus efectos en la vida práctica 28:39 | Acercarse a la gente y hacerse presente desde la empatía 41:45 | Sanar traumas y crear nuevas realidades para nuestros hijos 49:08 | ¿Hay futuro para el evangelicalismo? 1:04:01 | Encontrar el lugar al que realmente pertenecemos 1:14:56 | Qué debe tener una comunidad de fe para que valga la pena 1:25:02 | Salutaciones finales Tema musical: Midnight Special - E's Jammy Jams.

Kristina brings Jo Luehmann on the show and asks her the red hot question - why are Christian men so triggered by her posts? They share some laughs and some very real conversation on the impact of patriarchy and supremacy culture in both evangelical and deconstruction spaces. They discuss what it was like for Jo to be an immigrant in US church spaces and how this correlates to her work now. What is Jo's hope for humanity? Heaven on earth. We hope you enjoy today's episode! Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised pastor and writer who moved to the US to get her masters degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, and finding in personal and systemic ways how harmful and abusive the evangelical church is, Jo quit her job and committed to finding a faith that wasn't abusive. Alongside her partner she started the Living Room (LivingRoomSD.com) a non-profit reclaiming faith and spirituality as expressions that can lead us toward wholeness, healing and heaven on earth. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space where people abused in churches can be seen, heard, believed and connected to others who can offer tools in their journey toward healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. In less than 6 weeks the space grew to over 5000 people with over a thousand different reports of abuse submitted. Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing faith and theology, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively. Follow Jo on Instagram: instagram.com/joluehmann Follow Jo on Twitter: twitter.com/joluehmann Follow Jo on Tik Tok: tiktok.com/joluemann Follow Kristina on Instagram: instagram.com/edgykristinahart Follow Kristina on Twitter: twitter.com/edgykristina Follow Kristina on Tik Tok: tiktok.com/edgykristinahart Follow That's Super Weird on Instagram: instagram.com/superweirdpod --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/super-weird-pod/support We're listening supported! http://superweirdpod.com --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/super-weird-pod/support

Today writer and activist Jo Luehmann joins me to explore how indoctrination to oppressive systems can impact our behaviours and lead to different forms abuse, prejudice & racist behaviour. We discuss the roots of capitalism, going back to its colonial roots and links to archaic institutions in the UK and Europe, such the royal family. Jo shares how we can become so indoctrinated into these systems we often can't see how we're causing harm. Then they cover how to unlearn these systems and be teachable in healthy ways so we can actually help tear down these systems, heal ourselves and love others well.

Jo Luehmann tweeted out a pretty intense message declaring her love of Christians, but hatred for the Christian gospel. It just so happened that Logos' Verse of the Day hit this topic perfectly. So, let's talk about that through the lens of 1 Corinthians 15:19-20.

Jo Luehmann is a Colombian-born and raised pastor who moved to the US to get her master's degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside churches, she found in personal and systemic ways how harmful and abusive the evangelical church can be. Jo quit her job and committed to finding a faith that wasn't abusive.Alongside her partner, she started the Living Room a non-profit reclaiming faith and Christianity as spiritual expressions that can lead us toward wholeness and healing. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space where people abused in churches can be seen, heard, believed, and connected to others who can offer tools in their journey toward healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing faith and theology, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism both individually and collectively.Links + ResourcesJo Luehmann on PatreonThe Living Room PodcastJo on InstagramJo on TwitterJoin Matthias and Dr. Robyn Henderson Espinoza on May 12 at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology as they engage in conversation around Dr. Robyn's new book Body Becoming: A Path to Our Liberation. This event has both in-person and online attendance options. All the details can be found at https://theseattleschool.edu/event/body-becoming-a-path-to-our-liberation/Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Jo Luehmann is a public theologian working in deconstruction, decolonizing our faith, and detoxing from toxic theology. You can find her work on Instagram at @joluehmann and you can support her work on Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/joluehmannCheck it out!

Since the pandemic, the world of Christian faith deconstruction exploded into this wonderful kaleidoscope of podcasters and influencers, including the Dirty Rotten Church Kids, Adrian and Josh, who both left their faith but continued to forge and nurture a solid friendship beyond the walls of the church. Once you leave the church that has become a foundational and formative part of your identity, it leaves you with that sense that you no longer have a community or you don't have anyone to talk to. If you're like many people who want to keep their relationships because they can't stand the thought of being lonely, you may end up keeping your friends from toxic pasts who don't really love you for who you are. Because if they did, then it wouldn't matter to them if you left your faith or stopped believing in certain things.  In this episode, Adrian and Josh talk about life after church, leaving the religious baggage, and how they approach parenting in a way that's totally different from how their parents had raised them. Show Highlights: The birth of the Dirty Rotten Church Kids podcast How they managed to maintain their friendship outside of the church The biggest parenting issues they're facing Learning to love ourselves and finding our values Not everything has to have eternal consequences Being open to your kids about your own baggage Cutting the cords with people you don't resonate with A chosen family that's involved in your kids' upbringing Links (affiliates included): My appearance on the DRCK Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/security-and-clarity-w-cindy-wang-brandt/id1487820978?i=1000498263787  DRCK on my Parenting Conference, alongside Your Favorite Heretics and Jo Luehmann - https://www.parentingforwardconference.com/parenting-after-deconstruction  Parenting After Religious Trauma Membership - https://cindy-brandt.mykajabi.com/partmembership  Help keep the podcast going by joining the Parenting Forward Patreon Team - https://www.patreon.com/cindywangbrandt Parenting Forward, the Book - https://amzn.to/3g0LJPn1Little  You Are Revolutionary - https://www.beamingbooks.com/store/product/9781506478302/You-Are-Revolutionary *** EPISODE CREDITS: If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com Let them know I sent you.

In this episode, Corey and Jo Luehmann discuss how to have a liberated spirituality and what happens when empires fall.    Contend with Jo: On Insta and Twitter: @joluehmann  Contend with us: On Patreon: http://patreon.com/coreyevanleak

Proselytizing vs. Evangelism?  Can you share your faith in a way that doesn't offend and is also effective? Is it ok to be offensive when sharing your faith?  In this discussion, we hope to answer that.  This special episode was recorded LIVE on Instagram in front of hundreds of viewers.Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised ordained minister who moved to the US to participate in an internship and then get her master's degree in ministry and theology at Point Loma Nazarene University.  She is a writer and advocate for theological deconstruction through her various platforms online. Matthew VanNorstran is a Princeton Theological Seminarian currently working on his PhD in New Testament Studies.  He is also the co-admin of online page, The Honest Youth Pastor and shares "Reel Theology" where he dives into the original languages and contextual understanding of scripture.Apply to receive Social Media Consultation from Matt the MemeLord!: LINKTo hear the unedited version of this and other MemeLord Monday episodes, you can support the show by becoming a Supercast Memeber!  Your monthly gift will also enable you to receive GOODIES and EXCLUSIVE episodes!  **link below**Support the show (https://memesforjesus.supercast.tech/)

On this BONUS episode, Cortland and Meghan talk through recent conversations about the new version of purity culture, sexual ethics, queer affirmation, and sex positivity. This unique episode doesn't have a guest interview, but gives our listeners a window into the way we navigate dialogue about ethics and values on the other side of faith change. We know that we are always learning, and we want to point to the voices that we have learned so much from in this space. Please check out these creators and support their work. Also know that this is not an exhaustive list, it's always growing, and we will continue to add to it! Instagram/Twitter/Web: Talk Purity to Me, Erica Smith, Meg Cowan, Dr. Tina Sellers, Jo Luehmann, Brenda Marie Davies (God is Grey), Ms. Charlotte, QueerTheology.com (Brian and Shay), The Snarky Gent, Tyler Krumland, Kevin Garcia, Alicia T. Crosby Please check out this list of book recommendations shared in this tweet by Ms. Charlotte. Books: Pure by Linda Kay Klein Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms by Matthias Roberts #churchtoo by Emily Joy Allison Sex, God, and the Conservative Church by Dr. Tina Sellers Shameless by Nadia Bolz Weber You Are Your Own by Jamie Lee Finch Love Him Well by Tyler Krumland On Her Knees: Memoir of a Prayerful Jezebel by Brenda Marie Davies We would love to hear feedback about the show, and specifically about this episode. Feedback from listeners helps us determine the future direction of the show! Send us a note on Twitter or Instagram or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for being fellow travelers on this messy journey we call life.

The Living Room is a bi-monthly podcast where we consider ways of existing that lead to our individual and collective liberation. Hosted by writer and theologian Jo Luehmann, The Living Room is an invitation to conversations where we reimagine parenting, relationships, community, spirituality, sexuality, politics, and where we address the individual and collective trauma of systems of oppression in order to move toward healing and wholeness. Subscribe for new episodes every other Tuesday.

This episode was recorded for A Deconstructed Holiday Virtual Conference on December 15, 2021. Our guest host was Leigh Adams. On this episode, we discussed: How deconstructing in Black and Brown spaces is different from White spaces How deconstructing looks in different cultures How to implement boundaries around deconstruction in your family     About our panel: Leigh Adams is a learner, a lover of people, a mother, business owner and singer. She enjoys reading, engaging with friends and family, and sharing her journey of the mess that is life. Leigh holds a Bachelor of Arts in Marketing and an MBA specializing in Ethical Leadership. Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised pastor with a masters degree in ministry and theology. Jo speaks and teaches about decolonizing church, theology, spirituality and faith, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively. Rebeka Jones is a writer, learner, wife, and mother seeking to expand the experience of Jesus beyond the evangelical box.

Today we get the privilege of sitting down and having a conversation with the one and only Jo Luehmann! Of course we have our normal TwitBits conversation at the beginning of the episode where we talk about the latest buzz on Twitter. If you'd like to skip straight to the interview feel free to skip ahead to 32:00. Jo Luehmann (she/her) is a Colombian born and raised pastor, speaker, educator and writer who moved to the US to get her masters degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum and teaching classes on theology and doctrine so that people's spirituality was their own; she found in personal and systemic ways how harmful and abusive the American evangelical church is, Jo quit her job and committed to finding an spiritual framework that wasn't abusive, and a faith that moved individuals and communities to liberation. Alongside her partner she started the Living Room (LivingRoomSD.com) a non-profit reclaiming faith and spirituality as expressions that can lead us toward wholeness, healing and heaven on earth. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space where people abused in churches can be seen, heard, believed and connected to others who can offer tools in their journey toward healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. In less than 6 months the space grew to over 15000 people with thousands of reports of abuse submitted. Jo writes, speaks and teaches about decolonizing faith and theology, and facilitates conversations about liberation for all, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism both individually and collectively. Jo, alongside her partner, is raising 4 children in unconventional ways so they can have as many tools to be liberated adults as possible, and they are doing it in the lands of the Kumeyay/Tipai Ipai. You can find links to all Jo's work at her LinkTree here: https://linktr.ee/joluehmann Don't forget to follow her on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/ and Twitter https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann

SUPPORT Jo Luehmann, is a public speaker and writer who teaches about dismantling systems of oppression, restorative justice, the effects of trauma, and centering the needs of marginalized communities. She is Colombian born and raised, and moved to the US to get her master's degree in ministry and theology. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum, and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, she stopped working in the church and started The Living Room, a non-profit that helps faith spaces consider and evaluate issues of racial literacy and equity. In the summer of 2020, inspired by a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, she started doBetterChurch, an online space for victims of religious mistreatment. The platform invites churches to improve how they conduct themselves, seeks to ensure the safety of marginalized communities, and offers it's more than 10,000 participants peer support, tools for healing, and a safe space to communicate and be seen. CONTACT JO LUEHMANN Insta: https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/ CONTACT RON CECIL Website: https://www.roncecil.com/ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/rcecil/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ron.cecil CONTACT DANIEL PENNER CLINE Insta: https://www.instagram.com/dpennercline/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1498866808 --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cutting-for-sign/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cutting-for-sign/support

CW: religious trauma, sexual abuse, general abuse In this episode, the crew adds a new co-host (Bonnie) and get to interview Adrian Gibbs and Josh Link from the Dirty Rotten Church Kids. The crew talks about general issues with the church and talk about what is next after Christianity, including if there is a need to reconstruct and if everything has been deconstructed. Adrian and Josh also teach the Angsty Christian Kids how to be Thot Liters along with bringing the show back to a Shrek Fanfiction Podcast (Dreamworks sponsor us please). If you would like to connect with Josh and Adrian: Instagram: https://instagram.com/dirtyrottenchurchkids for a ton of great memes To connect with them in other ways: https://linktr.ee/DirtyRottenCK To listen to their episode on reconstruction: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0gLVm3nY1C2eSp17oqrP2u?si=cvtwz0UVS8ClFqxvcfRuAA&dl_branch=1 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dirty-rotten-church-kids/id1487820978?i=1000512476677 They have many great episodes, but check out their interviews with Mike McHargue, Dr. Robyn Henderson-Espinoza, Grace Baldridge, Jo Luehmann, Jamie Lee Fitch, and Kevin Garcia for some podcasts to get started on! Join their community of Bad Apples by supporting them on Patreon! Also to support us on our Patreon and join our Discord server of Angsty Heretics: https://www.patreon.com/angstychristianpod To share your story and give any feedback: https://linktr.ee/angstychristianpod --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Tonight Casper has a dialogue with Jo Luehmann a Colombian born and raised pastor who moved to the US to participate in an internship and then get her master's degree in ministry and theology at Point Loma Nazarene University. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum, and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, Jo quit her job and alongside her partner started a non-profit to help faith spaces consider and evaluate issues of equity and racial literacy. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse Casper looks to learn her story in sharing a space about White supremacy in the fabric of our religious institutions and deconstructing faith as People of color in today's society. Welcome to the K!D Casper #podcast On Tetelestai inc Where The unwelcome are welcome The Black Sheep are family And Love is The First Commandment What do we got if we don't Got Love? Our goal is to have a dialogue about music, movies, books, Having dialogue about current events, Trending Topics, and seeking nuance. I'm K!D Casper for those that don't know I'm A Fulltime #creative #Christian #Raptivist #Rapper #Activist I produce, record my own music, entrepreneur, Clothing apparel owner and a Woke Pro-Black Nerdy Theologian. Ca$happ: $MrLeadWithLove Venmo: @Mr_LeadWithLove https://beacons.ai/mr.leadwithlove

A double-header of conversations recorded at Wild Goose Festival in September! Jo Luehmann is the founder of the Living Room and DoBetterChurch, movements to decolonize faith and spirituality and to dismantle oppression and toxic theology. Dr. Robyn is a Transqueer Activist, Latinx Scholar, and Public Theologian. Jo Luehmann on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok Dr. Robyn Wild Goose Festival

So many people have “church hurt”. Religious trauma runs deep in our society and in this episode, I had on Jo Luehmann. Jo is a speaker and does work around purity culture, decolonization, white supremacy, trauma, healing, and the LGBTQ+ community. She shares why you have to be mindful about what you tie your worth to and her upbringing as a Catholic, turned Christian and her current beliefs. You'll hear about the hierarchy of the church that grooms abuse, the cycles of trauma that plague religions and so much more!    What's in this episode: Jo's backstory on religion and her upbringing The destructiveness of church and religion How justifying the treatment of “other” by way of sin and God is disparaging The hierarchy that religion creates that grooms abuse How cycles of abuse and trauma perpetuate each other  Her ideas for the future of the church   For full show notes, resources and links, head to: https://www.meredythwillits.com/podcast   Are you ready to go deeper? I am giving you the keys to the castle. If you enjoyed this podcast and want to hear more, make sure to subscribe so you'll never miss an episode! You can also join us on Patreon for exclusive content you'll only hear there: https://www.patreon.com/MeredythWillits You can connect more by visiting me on my website at https://www.meredythwillits.com/ or connecting with me on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/MeredythWillits34 or Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/meredyth_willits.

Welcome to Have a Blessed Gay, your weekly spiritual-comedy podcast! Join holy host, Tyler Martin, as he critically discusses social norms, current events, mental health, religion, and spirituality from an outcast's perspective. What happens when a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, and an Agnostic talk on a podcast…? Answer: Season 1 of Have a Blessed Gay! In this final episode of season one, Tyler reflects over this past incredible year by giving his top five takeaways from season one! You'll hear inspirational highlights from five of Have a Blessed Gay's diverse guests, including from Muslim author and one of Time Magazine's "100 Most Influential People,” Daisy Khan, Rupaul's Dragrace superstar, Nina West, Rabbi and activist, Denise L. Eger, Human Rights Campaign's “Top Faith Leaders,” Brandan Robertson, and deconstructionist and decolonizer, Jo Luehmann. These experts, faith leaders, and celebrities remind us of our similarities, what it means to be holy, to uplift and support others, and to ultimately seek the divine within ourselves. To stay up-to-date on all things Have a Blessed Gay, including season 2, go to www.haveablessedgay.com and sign up for the newsletter. Plus follow on social media @haveablessedgay on all the platforms! Enter for a Chance to Win a Free Signed Copy of “The Deconstructionist Playbook!!!” Step 1: Leave a review on Apple Podcasts (Leave it on your phone or use this link to leave it online on a computer: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/have-a-blessed-gay/id1514467779 ) Step 2: Take a picture of your review after it is posted (usually takes a couple of days) Step 3: Email hello@haveablessedgay.com with your name, your email address, and the picture of your review. The winner will be randomly chosen and announced on social media (@haveablessedgay) and the winner will receive an email confirmation. You have a week to submit! This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp! Get 10% Off BetterHelp therapy by using my code! www.betterhelp.com/blessedgay Your Host: Tyler Martin Instagram: @tylerisaacmartin Follow Have a Blessed Gay and Reach Out! Instagram/Twitter/Facebook: @haveablessedgay www.haveablessedgay.com Email: hello@haveablessedgay.com U.S. Helplines National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255 Trevor Project Helpline (LGBTQ+ Youth): 1-866-488-7386 Trans Helpline: 877-565-8860

In this episode Emily brings you her highly anticipated conversation with activist and church abuse survivor advocate, Jo Luehmann. Jo has been speaking out against church abuse on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok, as well as helping people decolonize their faith. Born in Columbia, she came to the US in her early 20's to get her master's degree in theology and ministry. After a decade of working and teaching in churches, she finally left the evangelical machine to help other survivors of church abuse and religious trauma reclaim their autonomy and spirituality. Together with other survivors she formed @doBetterChurch, an online community devoted to exposing church abuse which exploded into 5,000 members in a matter of weeks. Join Emily and Jo as they discuss everything from ministry life to motherhood, from Christian Supremacy to the church's questionable labor practices. If you want to learn more about Jo and her work, all applicable links mentioned in today's episode are listed below. Links from this episode: @doBetterChurch https://linktr.ee/dobetterchurch/ @JoLuehmann (on all platforms) https://linktr.ee/joluehmann Support Jo's work by subscribing to her Patreon https://www.patreon.com/joluehmann The Life She Wrote: Social Links and Newsletter Sign-Up Credits: Original music (intro/outro) by R.Scott Okamoto rscottokamoto.com

Welcome to Have a Blessed Gay, your weekly spiritual-comedy podcast! Join holy host, Tyler Martin, as he critically discusses social norms, current events, mental health, religion, and spirituality from an outcast's perspective. In this episode, Tyler chats with the superb Jo Luehmann! Jo is a Colombian born and raised pastor with a masters degree in ministry and theology. Jo is a loud and proud advocate that speaks and teaches about decolonizing church, theology, spirituality and faith, as well as the importance of dismantling white supremacy, patriarchy and capitalism. Tyler and Jo cover a many topics -- spiritual bypassing, her journey leaving the evangelical Christian community and how she became involved in deconstruction, religious trauma, how her and her husband have dealt with deconstruction in their relationship, and finding one's inner divinity...ultimately being one's own savior. Being that this is pride month, we want to uplift and showcase LGBTQ+ voices like powerhouse bisexuals like Jo. Y'all, get ready to feel motivated, validated, and inspired by this amazing conversation! This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp! Get 10% Off BetterHelp therapy by using my code! www.betterhelp.com/blessedgay Your Guest: Jo Luehmann Social Media: @joluehmann Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/joluehmann Your Host: Tyler Martin Instagram: @tylerisaacmartin Follow Have a Blessed Gay and Reach Out! Instagram/Twitter/Facebook: @haveablessedgay www.haveablessedgay.com Email: hello@haveablessedgay.com U.S. Helplines National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255 Trevor Project Helpline (LGBTQ+ Youth): 1-866-488-7386 Trans Helpline: 877-565-8860

As a Colombian woman, Jo has experienced firsthand how quickly privileged identities are to demonize marginalized identities, preferring comfort and power to creating safe spaces for people with experiences outside of their own. After alienating the leadership in her church with her all or nothing approach and working through personal deconstruction and decolonization, Jo boldly and unapologetically arrived at a conclusion: "Marginalized identities do not have an obligation to make privileged identities comfortable. At all." Jo speaks out against power structures that the Church upholds between "first class Christians" - white, hetero men - who preach about the comfort of their identity and "second class Christians" who sit down to listen about how their stories and experiences are invalid. She expresses the importance of forming safe spaces for marginalized voices who are the only ones who can truly speak to what it takes to crawl out of hell to in order to move towards heaven. ABOUT JO Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised pastor who moved to the US to participate in an internship and then get her master's degree in ministry and theology at Point Loma Nazarene University. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum, and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, Jo quit her job and alongside her partner started a non-profit to help faith spaces consider and evaluate issues of equity and racial literacy. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space for victims of religious abuse dedicated to peer support and sharing tools for healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. You can follow Jo on Twitter @JoLuehmann You can follow Jo on IG @joluehmann

As a Colombian woman, Jo has experienced firsthand how quickly privileged identities are to demonize marginalized identities, preferring comfort and power to creating safe spaces for people with experiences outside of their own. After alienating the leadership in her church with her all or nothing approach and working through personal deconstruction and decolonization, Jo boldly and unapologetically arrived at a conclusion: "Marginalized identities do not have an obligation to make privileged identities comfortable. At all." Jo speaks out against power structures that the Church upholds between "first class Christians" - white, hetero men - who preach about the comfort of their identity and "second class Christians" who sit down to listen about how their stories and experiences are invalid. She expresses the importance of forming safe spaces for marginalized voices who are the only ones who can truly speak to what it takes to crawl out of hell to in order to move towards heaven. ABOUT JO Jo Luehmann is a Colombian born and raised pastor who moved to the US to participate in an internship and then get her master's degree in ministry and theology at Point Loma Nazarene University. After 10 years working inside of churches, developing curriculum, and teaching classes on theology and doctrine, Jo quit her job and alongside her partner started a non-profit to help faith spaces consider and evaluate issues of equity and racial literacy. In the summer of 2020 alongside a group of victims and survivors of church abuse, Jo started @doBetterChurch an online space for victims of religious abuse dedicated to peer support and sharing tools for healing, as well as an initiative to invite churches to do better. You can follow Jo on Twitter @JoLuehmann You can follow Jo on IG @joluehmann

In this episode William speaks with Jo Luehmann.  Jo shares about what toxic and colonising theology looks like and how we tackle it, the importance of listening to those who are most marginalised, what healthy and decolonised theology is and then Jo practically applies these topics by talking briefly about critical race theory.   You can connect with Jo and her content by following the links below: Instagram: @joluehmann Twitter: @joluehmann

Jo Luehmann is a force for good on social media and in real life. This week we chat with her about what it means to deconstruct, decolonize and dismantle white supremacy in and out of Christianity. Jo tells us why she will hold on to hope in spite of the harmful misuses of faith in her life and throughout the history of the church. We also talk about the recent resurgence of the gun control conversation after shootings in Boulder and Atlanta in the context of racial justice, the Black Panthers and MLK. Follow Jo's work here: https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann https://t.co/jGbmGMHMsO?amp=1 Follow Casey's work here: https://twitter.com/caseyhobbs patreon.com/caseyhobbs --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/publictheologians/support

Guest Jo Luehmann talks about her journey of faith, deconstruction, and decolonization.

Jo Luehmann is a former pastor and is working to dismantle systems of oppression and toxic theology (stole that from her Instagram bio). Jo is someone with not only a powerful story but who also has a perspective on the Christian faith that needs to be heard. We went deep on this one covering topics like the divinity of Christ, the Bible and deconstruction. One thing about Jo that I love is that she is committed to speaking the truth in love without dehumanizing those she disagrees with. Follow Jo on Instagram // @JoLuehmannFollow Tim on Instagram // @thenewevangelicals Join our Facebook Community Like this episode? Give us a rating and a review.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jo Luehmann and I talk about how our different backgrounds in christianity undermined our self trust and intuition.  Jo also touches on reconstructing intuitive living and connection to self.  Juicy conversation that I could have recorded for 3 hours!FOLLOW -IG:  https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/IG:  https://www.instagram.com/melieablack/

The persecution complex among christians is something to behold. Where does it come from? Is it founded in scripture or our minds? Jo Luehmann joins the show to discuss this and more in today's new episode! CONNECT: @joluehmann

Join Janice and the brilliant Jo Luehmann as they discuss the effects of parenting. How much does the way we were raised have to do with the religious spaces we end up in? Do parents always know best? And what do you do when the people who love you, don't like you? All the easy questions. Friend of the week: Jo Luehmann | @joluehmann | @joluehmann Regular degular links @godhasnotgiven // godhasnotgiven.com // @jani_the_cat // janicelagata.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Lady pastors don't fuck around. Learn more and connect with Jo at Patreon.com/JoLuehmann. ... Want to connect more with other folks on their spiritual journey, join us over in the Spiritual Re'Formation community on Patreon. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/tinyrevolution/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

After unprecedented events in Washington D.C., Jo Luehmann helps me unpack how the mob that stormed the Capitol is connected to white supremacy and Christian culture and theology. We discuss decolonization: what it is, and how can we better understand it and apply it to our spiritual lives. How can we be sure our beliefs aren't harming others? That is a question worth asking.You can learn more about Jo Luehmann:http://www.instagram.com/joluehmannhttp://www.twitter.com/joluehmannThe nonprofit of the week is the Native American Rights Fund:http://www.narf.org

Mason chats with Jo Luehmann about her work in deconstructing and decolonizing Christian faith. They chat about her recent Twitter incident, how she differentiates between deconstruction and decolonization, and why she does her theology online. Guest Bio/Info: Jo Luehmann is a Colombian-born pastor who teaches on deconstructing and decolonizing Christian faith. Find Jo here: linktr.ee/joluehmann Twitter: @JoLuehmann Instagram: joluehmann Facebook: facebook.com/JoLuehmann Special music by Jelani: Spotify: Jelani Instagram: iamjelani Get connected to Mason: masonmennenga.com Patreon: patreon.com/masonmennenga Twitter: @masonmennenga Facebook: facebook.com/mason.mennenga Instagram: masonmennenga

She's back. Jo Luehmann everyone! And we GET INTO IT in this one. We talk about all sorts of different components of decolonization work. So you are gonna want to brace yourself for this one! If you haven't listened to the first episode with Jo it's episode 039. You can follow Jo at https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann & https://www.twitter.com/joluehmann And you can support her here - https://www.patreon.com/joluehmann Support my work and join our private online community: ╰►Via my site: https://www.phildrysdale.com/partner ╰►Via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/phildrysdale ╰►Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/phildrysdale ╰►Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phildrysdale ╰►Find others deconstructing locally: https://www.thedeconstructionnetwork.com ╰►More about me: https://www.phildrysdale.com

Crystal talks to Jo Luehmann about her upcoming Pop-Ed series, Decolonizing Christianity.

Michael Jackson's daughter to play lesbian version of Jesus in a new film. A “Christian” claims that sharing the gospel is a violent act against another person.  Michael Jackson's Daughter to Portray Jesus as Lesbian in New Blasphemous Film, Calls Mount to Cancel [Article]  https://christiannews.net/2020/06/21/michael-jacksons-daughter-to-portray-jesus-as-lesbian-in-new-blasphemous-film-calls-mount-to-cancel/  Christian News Network, June 21, 2020  This Is It? Michael Jackson and the Moral Decline of America [Article]  https://www.goodfight.org/articles/music/michael-jackson-moral-decline-america/  by Joe Schimmel  “Since conservative Christians keep coming at me…” (Twitter Post]  https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann/status/1274883966491746305  Official Twitter Feed of Jo Luehmann, June 21, 2020 

This week we keep it light- dismantling White supremacy and toxic Christianity... Why? Because in order to truly heal, these subjects must be addressed. There's a legacy of abuse and trauma inside the Christian church. Nobody wants to admit it- but saying it out loud is the first step to freedom. Saying it out loud is what dismantles it. Our guest today says it out loud. Everyday. And helps many people finally be able to have permission to feel what they have been feeling. She validates the experience of so many who feel left out, cast aside, ignored and “other” within the church. As well as those who leave and lose their community. “You heal. That's the work. You heal because healed people encourage others and become safe spaces. And if we're safe spaces that mean that we are healing agents.” Jo Luehmann There is so much goodness here! Enjoy and let us know what you think. Jo Luehmann: www.livingroomsd.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joluehmann/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/joanna.luehmann Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoLuehmann Christy references Resmaa Menakem: https://www.resmaa.com/

In this episode I talk to Jo Luehmann who is best known for her excellent work in helping people in their journeys deconstructing their faith as well as decolonizing their faith. She has a fantastic list of resources for people at https://linktr.ee/joluehmann and you can follow her on Instagram and Twitter @joluehmann Support my work and join our private online community: ╰►Via my site: https://www.phildrysdale.com/partner ╰►Via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/phildrysdale ╰►Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/phildrysdale ╰►Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/phildrysdale ╰►Find others deconstructing locally: https://www.thedeconstructionnetwork.com ╰►More about me: https://www.phildrysdale.com