Podcasts about trauma resolution

In the season two finale of the Sunday School Dropouts podcast, Andrew and Laura recap their experiences and favorite episodes from the past season. They share personal anecdotes about the impact of high control religion on finances, trauma-informed therapy, and purity culture.Laura and Andrew highlight significant episodes such as their conversation with Jo Luehmann about financial trauma and Angela Denker on American boyhood and radicalization. The hosts also discuss their summer plans, which include writing projects and potential future topics for the next season. The episode ends with a nod to future explorations of purity culture in the upcoming season.This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  kevincrowe.co

This week we will be talking to a notorious former pastor about their experience growing up inside high control religion, becoming a poster child for purity culture, being set up to take over for a large church and ultimately giving it all up, deconstructing his faith and leaving the church. If you grew up in evangelicalism, and likely even if you didn't, you're sure to be familiar with Joshua Harris, author of the wildly popular Christian dating, ahem, courting, book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. He's here to share with us about his time inside of high control religion, what opened his eyes to the unhealthy dynamics inside the church and his process of healing after leaving. It's an episode that all of our younger selves never saw coming and definitely one you won't want to miss! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

What are Adverse Religious Experiences (AREs) and spiritual abuse? Aren't they the same thing as religious trauma? Join Andrew and Laura on this week's episode to discuss AREs, spiritual abuse, dynamics of power and control, how this relates to fundamentalism and how all of this…isn't religious trauma? You heard us correctly!  Andrew and Laura discuss all of this AND how these things can result in religious trauma on this episode of Sunday School Dropouts!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe

In this episode, Laura and Andrew engage in a lively discussion with Janice Lagata about her experiences growing up in evangelicalism, her time at Hillsong College, and the importance of literature and financial therapy. They explore themes of banned books, free speech, and the influence of worship music on personal faith. The conversation is rich with insights and personal anecdotes, making it a compelling listen for anyone interested in the intersections of faith, culture, and personal growth.In this conversation, Janice Lagata shares her journey from moving to New York and joining Hillsong to her struggles with church culture, identity, and the impact of purity culture. She reflects on her experiences within a male-dominated evangelical space, the expectations placed on women, and the burden of not having a personal testimony. Janice discusses her eventual departure from Hillsong, seeking healthier communities, and the complexities of serving in church environments that demand much while often perpetuating shame. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of faith, race, and the intersections of capitalism and evangelicalism.They explore the trials of personal transformation, the cultural discrepancies faced by people of color in faith communities, and the problematic nature of church planting. The discussion also highlights the spiritual capitalism inherent in evangelicalism and the stagnation observed in deconstruction spaces, ultimately questioning the authenticity of new leadership dynamics. In this conversation, Laura Anderson and Janice Lagata explore the complexities of leaving evangelicalism, addressing themes such as embodied fundamentalism, the impact of capitalism, the challenges of grifting, and the role of privilege in ex-vangelical spaces. They emphasize the importance of personal responsibility, community, and self-trust in the deconstruction journey, while also recognizing the need for diverse voices and perspectives in these discussions.To connect with Janice, check out her website: https://janicelagata.com/ –from there you can join her Patreon, Substack, and hear about the other cool projects and offerings she has!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

Jo Luehmann shares her journey from being a pastor to deconstructing her faith, focusing on the financial challenges and mindsets that shaped her path. The episode also explores strategies for overcoming financial anxiety and reclaiming autonomy after leaving high-control religious settings.Resources Mentioned:Psychology of Money by Morgan HouselYour First Million by Arlan HamiltonYour Journey to Financial Freedom by Jamila SouffrantKeeping Finance Personal by Ellyse FulmoreWe should all be millionaires Rachel RodgersThe Art of Thinking Clearly by Rolf Debelli Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel KahnemenTo follow Jo's work: @joleuhmann across all platforms!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

In this episode of the Sunday School Dropouts podcast, Angela Denker joins Andrew to discuss her new book, 'Disciples of White Jesus: The Radicalization of American Boyhood'. Reverend Denker explores themes of masculinity, gender narratives, and the influence of culture and church on boys and men. Highlighting the shifting political landscape, she emphasizes the impact of figures like Elon Musk and the ways social media algorithms contribute to radicalization.They touch upon the role of community in countering harmful narratives and supporting healthy identities in boys. They also reflect on the need to balance holding harmful figures accountable while providing compassion and support on a grassroots level.Angela's Substack: https://angeladenker.substack.comThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at www.kevincrowe.co

This week on Sunday School Dropouts, we're joined by author Sarah Henn Hayward for an honest, insightful conversation about her journey from devout Christianity to agnostic atheism.Sarah, author of Giving Up God, opens up about her upbringing in the Evangelical Free Church and the slow, freeing path of deconstruction that followed. She reflects on purity culture, youth group experiences, and the internal conflicts that led her to start questioning her faith.We also talk about what it's like to navigate relationships—especially marriage—when belief systems diverge. Sarah shares how she's held onto values like love, humility, and generosity, even as her theology shifted. She offers a refreshing take on parenting, spirituality, and staying connected to a sense of wonder outside of religion.Learn more about Sarah and her work at sarahhennhayward.comOn Instagram she is: @shaywardwrites Buy Sarah's book, “Giving Up God” anywhere where books are available! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at www.kevincrowe.co

The holidays are over and we are back into our purity culture mini-series! This month we are talking about purity culture and it's impact on individuals who grew up male in this system. We are thrilled to have Dr. Bradley Onishi on the podcast today as our professional who has done research and client-facing work in this area as well as being a purity culture poster boy himself. Join Brad and Laura as they discuss the unique impacts of purity culture on men, shame, the expectations of being a “Godly man” and what happens when you don't measure up to that, as well as the importance of men learning how to step out of of the prescribed roles and mentality that both purity culture and patriarchy prop up. Resources Mentioned: Fair Play (book and game) by Eve Rodsky Mild at Heart podcast series (can be found on the website below and using “Mild” in the search bar)Guest: Brad OnishiWebsite: https://www.straightwhiteamericanjesus.comInstagram/TT: @straightwhitejc This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

We are thrilled to have with us today Dr. Tina Schermer Seller who is an author, researcher, professor, and psychotherapist specializing in the impacts of purity culture, shame resilience, gender, and sexuality. In this episode, Dr. Tina shares her research and how she came to realize the psychological and physiological impact of purity culture and how that shaped the direction of her work with clients, students, and her writing. In the episode, Dr. Tina shares an incredible definition of sexual shame (see below) that can help us understand the felt sense experience of purity culture! But before we talk to Dr. Tina, we have a vocabulary lesson on what are porn and sex addictions really and why religion is so quick to diagnoses people with them, and we'll also be taking some prayer requests! This is an episode you won't want to miss!Dr. Tina's definition of sexual shame (taken from the dissertation of Noel Clarke): Sexual shame is a visceral feeling of humiliation and disgust toward one's own body and identity as a sexual being and a belief of being abnormal, inferior and unworthy. this feeling can be internalized but also manifests in interpersonal relationships having a negative impact on trust, communication, and physical and emotional intimacy. Sexual shame develops across the lifespan in interactions with interpersonal relationships, one's culture and society, and subsequent critical self-appraisal (a continuous feedback loop). There is also a fear and uncertainty related to one's power or right to make decisions, including safety decisions, related to sexual encounters, along with an internalized judgement toward one's own sexual desire. You can find Dr. Tina at: Instagram: @drtinashameless  Facebook: @TinaSSellers Twitter: @TinaSSellersWebsite: https://www.tinaschermersellers.comPsychedelic assisted psychotherapy: www.Inannarising.org Dr. Tina's Books:Sex, God, and the Conservative ChurchShameless Parenting – Everything You Need to Raise Shame-free, Confident, Kids and Heal Your Shame TooThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

In this episode of Sunday School Dropouts, Andrew Pledger opens up about his journey growing up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) movement and the lasting effects of religious trauma on his mental health, sexuality, and sense of identity. He shares his experiences navigating legalism, spiritual abuse, and the pressure to conform, including his time at Bob Jones University and the emotional toll of leaving such a high-control environment. Andrew discusses the coping mechanisms he developed, such as dissociation, and how creativity, storytelling, and community have played a vital role in his healing. Through vulnerability and reflection, he offers encouragement to others seeking freedom, self-acceptance, and authentic love beyond oppressive systems.This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

Today we are joined by Andrew Pledger to talk about the financial burden that going to a religious college/university can cause. We get into not only the cost of these institutions but the extended control they have over all aspects of someone's life, even when it's the time in life where you're developmentally ready to have more freedom. Andrew shares his story with us about how he chose to go to Bob Jones University, what was required when he got there, the rules he had to follow and the financial consequences he had when he didn't follow the rules. To follow Andrew or learn more about his work, go to: @andrewpledgerwrites on Instagram Check out his podcast series “Surviving Bob Jones University” wherever you listen to podcasts!All of Andrew's links and projects can be found hereTo learn more about the support groups offered at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery or to sign up, click hereThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

Hello gorgeous Mumma'sOn this week's episode I am thrilled to share with your Jess Mulhall @jessthemidwife, Jess is a dedicated midwife, IBCLC Lactation Consultant, HypnoBirthing and antenatal educator, and Australia's first Birth Trauma Resolution Therapist. Jess provides compassionate guidance through pregnancy, birth, and beyond, especially for those healing from birth trauma. Offering both in-person care in Melbourne and online support worldwide, Jess is committed to ensuring that every family feels informed, prepared, and nurtured on their parenting journey.With a focus on helping families feel prepared and empowered, Jess offers a comprehensive breastfeeding package that includes her unique All-In-One Antenatal Expressing Kit, designed to support colostrum collection before birth. I hope you enjoy our converstaion as much as I did.If you aren't already following me on insta head over to @https://www.instagram.com/theparentingcollective.au/ for all my top tips and advice around sleep and parenting. I offer a free 15 minute phone chat to run through all your questions, click here to BOOK your free 15 minute chat.I also have a nurturing, safe, non judgemental space over at The Parenting Collective Motherhood Membership, come join us in there, to have unlimited questions answered, weekly live Q&A's and monthly experts in their field https://bub2sleep.com.au/motherhood-membership Much LoveDonna MoalaThe Parenting Collective(formally Bub2sleep) Produced by Sophie Jackson (@soundstreetworld)

In this conversation, Zach Anderson shares his journey of growing up in the Mormon Church, navigating his identity as a gay man, and the impact of high control religions on mental health and body image. He discusses his process of resigning from the church, the challenges of coming out, and how these experiences shaped his approach to nutrition coaching.The conversation also explores the intersections of purity culture, diet culture, and the nuances of intuitive eating, emphasizing the importance of self-acceptance and healing from trauma. In this conversation, Zach Anderson discusses the importance of nutrition, the impact of metabolic adaptation, and the psychological barriers many face regarding food.He emphasizes the need to break free from scarcity mindsets and perfectionism, particularly in the context of fundamentalist beliefs. The discussion also touches on the long-term effects of food restrictions and the importance of self-compassion in the journey of healing and growth. Zach shares insights on how to navigate rigidity in beliefs about food and body image, ultimately aiming to foster a healthier relationship with nutrition and oneself.Connect with Zach:IG: @motionsustainedWebsite: motionsustained.comFind out  more about working with Zach on his Kate Lyman webpageTo learn more about the support groups offered at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery or to sign up, click hereThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  kevincrowe.co

Now more than ever, many of us are having to navigate relationships with family members and friends who are grappling with choosing relationships with people over their belief/doctrines. Perhaps you are wrestling through that too? We are revisiting one of our favorite episodes with guests Beecher and April who share with us their own story of choosing relationship with each other over rigid theology and doctrine. Also, the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is offering their spring support groups! Whether it's learning boundaries, how to navigate family members, deconstructing common issues post-religion, healing from toxic religion, embodying pleasure and safety after high control religion, or getting in touch with your inner child, we have support for you! To learn more about the support groups offered at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery or to sign up, click here This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

Today we are excited to have Dr. Celeste Holbrook on the podcast! Celeste is a sex educator, author, speaker, and sexologist with her own story of healing after purity culture. She uses her personal experiences to inspire her professional work and helps folks untangle the long-lasting, embodied impacts of the messages they were taught about their bodies, sex, and pleasure. Today we are talking about all the sex education your Sunday school teachers never taught you! Connect with Celeste!Website: www.drcelesteholbrook.com Instagram: @drcelesteholbrookThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

In this episode of Sunday School Dropouts, Rikki Herbst shares her journey of leaving the Orthodox Jewish community in New York. She reflects on growing up in a tightly knit, insular environment and the emotional challenges of stepping away. Drawing parallels to other religious exits—like evangelicalism—she explores the complexities of reclaiming autonomy and finding support. As a therapist, Rikki offers insights on religious trauma from both personal and professional perspectives.You're listening to Sunday School DropoutsBoth of us grew up in high control religion and spent years trying to live up to the rules and standards until one day, we couldn't do it anymore. We spent our lives aspiring to be true followers of God and all we got from it was religious trauma.So now, we're taking our lived experiences along with our education, training, and work with clients to create this podcast–a podcast that goes beyond deconstruction and focuses on the unique aspects healing and recovery for folks coming out of high control religions, cults, fundamentalism, purity culture and those with religious trauma. Each episode we'll be talking with other experts, mental health practitioners, coaches, advocates, therapists and folks who have survived fundamentalist systems, to learn from their experiences and offer resources and support for healing. This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.comAnd before we get started, it's important for you to know that: The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and REcovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.We are not anti-religion but we are anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. We are two individuals using our academic backgrounds and training and personal experiences to provide a safe and supportive space for those recovering from fundamentalist groups and systems.If you're interested in finding a trauma-informed practitioner, go to https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com to schedule your free inquiry call with a practitioner of your choice.Follow us on Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/traumaresolutionandrecoveryhttps://www.instagram.com/deconstruct_everythinghttps://www.instagram.com/drlauraeandersonYou can also find Laura at https://www.drlauraeanderson.com.

This week we are excited to be joined by Dr. Eric Sprankle (@drsprankle on Instagram). Dr. Sprankle is a clinical psychologist and professor of human sexuality and author of the recently released: “DIY: The Wonderfully Weird History and Science of Masturbation”. He's joining us today to talk about what a porn addiction *actually* is (hint, it's not what religion teaches us!), our innate sexuality, and how it's the messages around sexuality, porn, and masturbation that creates the guilt, shame, and other negative responses…not the acts themselves. It's a great episode for all of those post-purity culture folks who weren't taught about healthy sexuality and sexual development! Connect with Dr. Eric SprankleWebsite: https://www.drsprankle.com/ Social Media: @drsprankle Buy his new book! DIY: The Wonderfully Weird History and Science of MasturbationThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  kevincrowe.co

In this episode, Melissa Duge Spiers shares her journey of growing up in a Seventh-day Adventist family, her experiences of rebellion, and the challenges she faced when leaving the church. She discusses the unique aspects of Adventism, the impact it had on her identity, and the process of deconstructing her beliefs. Melissa emphasizes the importance of finding joy and freedom after leaving a high-control environment and the need for support systems for those transitioning out of similar backgrounds. In this conversation, Melissa Duge Spiers and Andrew Kerbs explore the complexities of deconstructing from the Adventist faith, discussing themes of social isolation, the impact of self-supporting schools, and the church's missionary zeal. They delve into the ethical implications of Adventist outreach, connections to controversial groups like the Branch Davidians, and the painful yet necessary process of deconstruction. The conversation also touches on the importance of therapy and support in recovery, culminating in Melissa's journey of writing a memoir about her experiences.Follow Melissa https://www.instagram.com/the.glory.wholeThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

One of the best things about my podcast is all of the wonderful people doing incredible things that it's brought into my life. People like this week's guest, Jessica Graham who's returning to speak with me about their latest creation. Jessica is an author, actor and trauma resolution guide.  Together we discuss Jessica's latest book, 'Being (Sick) Enough,' and talk about their journey of writing, dealing with physical and emotional pain, and navigating trauma and healing.  Jessica explains their methods for coping with pain and the importance of self-acceptance and flexibility. The episode dives deep into topics such as adverse childhood experiences (ACEs), neurodivergence, chronic illness, and the transformative power of both pharmaceuticals and meditation. The conversation concludes with a guided exercise to manage physical pain and create a better relationship with one's body. Show Notes: 00:00 Introduction  02:05 Meet Jessica Graham: Author and Meditation Teacher 04:29 Writing Process and Challenges 12:53 The Impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) 23:38 Navigating Family Dynamics and Healing 30:54 Family Conversations Sparked by Jessica's Book 33:05 The Impact of Positive Childhood Experiences 39:53 Embracing Pain and Healing 45:12 The Journey of Self-Acceptance 48:09 Exploring the Role of Pharmaceuticals 56:53 Mindfulness and Pain Management Exercise 01:01:06 Conclusion and Contact Information  

Who else had the verse “children, obey your parents unto the Lord” said to them? Maybe as a way to justify behavior? Or assert control? Or maybe you still feel the need to obey your parents even if you are an adult (and with your own children!) On today's episode of Sunday School Dropouts we'll be talking about the parent-child dynamic within high control religion–the way it impacts a child and how that impact lingers on into adulthood. Whether it's the way you navigate relationships today or your sense of confidence in the world, how you interacted with your parents as a child impacts you today. And when you add high control religion on top of it, there is an even bigger impact! We're excited that Megan Von Fricken, who is, herself, a Sunday School Dropout, will be joining us today to talk about this from a clinical perspective and will share some ways that people can begin healing from this dynamic. And also, if you're a practitioner who works with clients coming out of high control groups, fundamentalism, and cults and want to get more training so you can more meaningfully support your clients, check out Laura's Religious Trauma Practitioner Cohort. Applications are now being accepted; limited spots available!To get in touch with Megan: IG: @religious.harm.recovery www.religiousharmrecovery.comThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

We are excited to be joined by author and adventurer, Ryan George! Ryan recently wrote and published the book “Hurt and Healed by the Church” which details his life as a pastor's kid whose father was a pastor in the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) church. Ryan's story is unique in that his father engaged of multiple acts of clergy sexual abuse with children. But instead of keeping that story ‘in the dark', Ryan has supported his father's victims, brought the truth into the light, and has created a life for himself opposite of his father's path. To follow Ryan's work or purchase his book, check out the links: Ryan's books: www.booksbyryan.comFind Ryan on Instagram: @ryplane Ryan's blog: www.Explorience.orgThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  kevincrowe.co

Christina Kantzavelos is a neurodivergent, and first-generation (third culture) Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW), life coach, writer, and chronic illness warrior. She specializes in treating clients with chronic health conditions (aka spoonies and medical refugees) and trauma (including medical trauma). She is also a writer, and an award-winning gluten-free and health-conscious travel and lifestyle blogger, @buenqamino. She currently sits on the board for Ride Out Lyme, an organization that provides grant funding for patients with Lyme disease, and volunteers as a facilitator and sits on the board for San Diego Lyme Alliance (Bay Area Lyme Foundation affiliate).Genevieve Gonzales is a licensed Holistic Psychotherapist, Board Certified Hypnotherapist, Neuro Shamanic Medicine Practitioner and the founder of Modern Mind Medicine. She specializes in resolving the painful effects of trauma, heartbreak and grief through utilizing the power of intention, transformational speech and gentle hypnotic processes that activate the subconscious and restorative nervous system. Through her sessions she creates a safe and comfortable space for people to connect with the healing potential of their own body and mind through bridging the medicine of ancient wisdom with the power of modern day emotional healing.In This EpisodeChristina's websiteIG: @beginwithintodayGenevieve's websiteIG: @modern_mind_medicine---What's new with The Trauma Therapist Project!The Trauma 5: gold nuggets from my 700+ interviewsThe Trauma Therapist Newsletter: a monthly resource of information and inspiration dedicated to trauma therapists.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.

The Sunday School Dropouts are joined today by Dr. Hillary McBride! Hillary is here to help us wrap up our touchstone topics episodes with an amazing conversation about spiritual abuse and trauma. Is it the same as religious abuse? Better or worse? What are the impacts and how do you heal? We talk about all that and more with Hillary. Also, you won't want to miss Laura and Andrew's “ins” and “outs” for the year and their reflections on new year's resolutions when they were both religious!Connect with HillaryWebsite: www.hillarylmcbride.comInstagram/Threads: @hillaryliannamcbride Buy Holy HurtThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

Jessica Hyne is joining us today to share her story of growing up in the Church of Christ denomination. We talk about everything from the structure of the Church of Christ, to the strive for certainty, rigid thinking, and being a part of the frozen chosen…if you don't get what that is, you'll just have to listen! We also talk about the important pieces of her own healing journey and the piece of advice she would offer folks coming from a Church of Christ background.Jessica is also a Licensed Professional Counselor in the State of Tennessee and a practitioner at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Her work with CTRR focuses on individuals coming out of high control religions, rigid thinking, and fundamentalisms and learning how to find their inherent goodness and live in a more connected way in the world. If you're interested in learning more about Jessica or working with her as a coach at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, click this link!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

We're going through a psychedelic therapy revival. Join psychotherapist Todd Brossart as he introduces the Somacology channel and discusses some of his personal journey following a near-death injury and the innovative practices that helped him reconnect with his body and mind. Gain insights into: The felt sense as a critical pathway to accessing the body's innate ability to process and resolve trauma. The role of Psychedelic Somatic Interactional Therapy (PSIP) in addressing deeply rooted trauma that conventional therapeutic approaches often fail to resolve.  The potential consequences of unprocessed trauma, including mental health challenges and physical health conditions, and how somatic healing provides a pathway toward recovery. Through a combination of personal experiences, professional expertise, and practical applications, Todd illuminates ways to treat trauma and increase psychological flexibility for sustainable growth. Whether you are a mental health professional, an individual seeking deeper understanding of trauma resolution, or someone interested in exploring psychedelic therapies, this video provides valuable perspectives and actionable knowledge.  --Socials-- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somacology LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-brossart-46432038/ Subscribe to the Somacology Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/somacology/id1493145676 This podcast was originally a YouTube video: https://youtu.be/3T9ZXIAkdeQ ___ www.somacology.com Get started with safe, ethical psychedelic assisted therapy. www.dailymindfulnesslab.com Increase your mental fitness and emotional agility. --My Products-- www.dailymindfulnessjournal.com A journal protocal proven to increase mindfulness, psychological flexibility, and compassion. Email me @ hello@mentalevents.com

This episode from the archives originally aired in January 2024 Dr. Laura Anderson is a therapist, trauma resolution, and recovery coach, writer, educator, and creator who specializes in complex trauma with a focus on domestic violence, sexualized violence, and religious trauma. She holds a Master's degree in Marriage and Family Therapy and a Ph.D. in Mind-Body Medicine with her research focusing on the experience of living in a healing body after sexual trauma. Laura has a small private practice in Nashville, TN, and is the founder and director of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, an online coaching company where she and the other practitioners work with clients who have experienced high demand/high control religions, adverse religious experiences, cults, and religious trauma. In 2019, Laura co-founded the Religious Trauma Institute with the goal of providing trauma-informed resources, consultation, and training to clinicians and other helping professionals who work with religious trauma survivors. Laura's first book, “When Religion Hurts: Reclaiming Your Life After Religious Trauma”, is being released by Brazos Press in Fall 2023. She lives with her dog, Phoebe, in Middle Tennessee. In this highly informative and revealing conversation. Dr. Anderson shares with Rachel her personal experience and professional insights from the specialized work she does with survivors of religious trauma. The two colleagues discuss the most effective modalities for religious trauma recovery and outline some important nuances that often get overlooked on the path to healing. Before you go: Rachel offers some common traits to look out for in high-control religious groups to assess whether or not the leader's intentions are healthy. You can find more about Dr. Andreson and her work at: drlauraeanderson.com/ All of Rachel's video lectures are available for purchase here: rachelbernsteintherapy.com/webinar.html To help support the show monthly and get bonus episodes, shirts, and tote bags, please visit: www.patreon.com/indoctrination Prefer to support the IndoctriNation show with a one-time donation? Use this link: www.paypal.me/indoctrination Connect with us on Social Media: Twitter: twitter.com/_indoctrination Facebook: www.facebook.com/indoctrinationpodcast Tik Tok: www.tiktok.com/@indoctrinationpodcast Instagram: www.instagram.com/indoctrinationpodcast/ YouTube: www.youtube.com/rachelbernsteinlmft You can always help the show for free by leaving a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple/ iTunes. It really helps the visibility of the show!

The Sunday School Dropouts are back with another episode of answering your questions about religious trauma and the holidays. Many of the questions today centered around finding new traditions post-religion, dealing with family members who don't understand why you won't go to church, and how to navigate co-parenting around this time of year when one person has left the church and the other hasn't. Plus, Andrew and Laura are at it again with another holiday quiz game and sharing some of their own stories of how they celebrated the holidays as they deconstructed. This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

It's the most wonderful time of the year…or is it? The Sunday School Dropouts are taking on your questions today about all things having to do with religious trauma and the holidays! How do you set boundaries with your family that is still in church? Can you tell your emotionally immature family members that they are emotionally immature? Is it ok to tell your kids that you don't trust churches and religious doctrine anymore? All these questions (and more!) will be answered today. And, you'll also get to see who wins at holiday jeopardy between Andrew and Laura! Do YOU know what laughing-red-monster toy was the “it” toy of 1996? Tune in to find out!This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

We are joined today by RC Curtright, or, you might know him from social media as @deconstructing_exjw. RC was on the podcast in season one talking about the impact of purity culture for individuals who grew up male inside that system. But today he is here to talk about his own experiences of growing up in the Jehovah's Witness organization, his deconstruction and his journey of healing. Books that RC mentioned:Healing CPTSD by Pete WalkerWhen Religion Hurts You by Dr. Laura AndersonRadical Acceptance by Tara BrachConnect with RC on Instagram: @deconstructing_exjw This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

We're excited to be joined today by Mike Maeshiro! On today's “Story Episode” Mike shares with us about his time at Bethel Church and their school, the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry. Did Mike get slain in the spirit or was he a peaceful observer? You'll have to listen to find out! To connect with Mike: Substack: https://mikemaeshiro.substack.com/TikTok: @mikemaeshiroInstagram:@mikemaeshiroWebsite: mikemaeshiro.comThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

This episode features Dr. Laura Anderson, founder of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Dr. Anderson discusses healing from religious trauma, her book 'When Religion Hurts You,' and the challenges of maintaining relationships post-religion. We address internalized fundamentalism and emphasize setting boundaries and fostering consent, respect, and mutual understanding in healing journeys.When Religion Hurt You: https://www.amazon.com/When-Religion-Hurts-You-High-Control-ebook/dp/B0BW12SBFCCenter for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: https://www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/Andrew's LinksJOIN MY PATREON: https://www.patreon.com/4ndrewpledger Facebook Discussion Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1153866318625322/ My Substack: https://speakingupandrewpledger.substack.com/ Linktree: https://andrewpledger.mypixieset.com/links -Music: https://www.purple-planet.com *Some audio is regenerated by AI because of mispronunciations and/or recording issues Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We have one of the “founding fathers” of religious deconstruction on social media with us today…Phil Drysdale! Phil is joining us today to talk about all of the ins and outs of deconstruction, including the differences between deconstructing, deconverting, and being de-churched. Phil has partnered with researchers that have been able to obtain data on the tenants of deconstruction, how many people are deconstructing, and more! We loved this conversation with Phil and we know you'll love it too!This is our first episode back after the elections in the United States, so Andrew and Laura also share their thoughts on how they are doing and the theme that has been coming up over and over in their client sessions: feeling betrayed. We know that this time–because of the added stress of the elections and the holidays–can be particularly stressful for those of you with a background in high control religion, fundamentalism, and cults. So we wanted to remind you that if you need extra support or help navigating this, the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is here to help! All practitioners offer a free inquiry call in order to make sure that they are a good fit for you, so schedule yours today! (Sliding scale spots are available!)Connect with Phil DrysdaleInstagram: @phildrysdale Youtube: youtube.com/phildrysdale Websites: www.phildrysdale.com / www.thedeconstructionnetwork.comThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

Season 4: Episode 44 In this series, Mike celebrates authors. People who have a message and a story to share and who have done the hard work to get their message out there. In this episode, Mike interviews Laura Anderson, PhD, MA, Author of ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠When Religion Hurts You.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Everything Numa⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Queer and Affirming Writer's Collective⁠⁠⁠⁠ Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery⁠⁠⁠ Dr. Laura Anderson Instagram⁠

We are joined today by Cait West–an author, podcaster, and educator. Cait recently published a book, “Rift: A Memoir Breaking Away from Christian Patriarchy” and is stopping by today to share with us about her book and her journey. Cait grew up in the Christian Patriarchy movement and was a stay at home daughter until age 25. Through courage and trusting herself, Cait was able to leave the system and family she grew up in and create a thriving life outside of it. Website: www.caitwest.com Substack: https://caitwest.substack.com Podcast: Survivors DiscussFor Our Daughters FilmFind Cait on Instagram Cait's book: Rift: A Memoir Breaking Away from Christian PatriarchyThis podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

It's Election Day in the United States…which can feel relieving, nerve wracking, and everything in between! It made sense that we use this episode to wrap up our Religious Trauma and Politics mini-series by talking about how to take care of yourself today, the next few days, and beyond. Andrew and Laura are talking about finding stability, how fear can cause us to do and think things that are not aligned with our core values, identifying what we can control, and how to take care of ourselves. And you'll also get to hear who wins at the game of Presidential and Elections Jeopardy! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  kevincrowe.co.

In this crucial episode, we're joined by Dr. Laura Anderson to unravel the complex web of religious trauma and its intersection with political turbulence. We're adventuring into the realms of election anxiety, religious healing, and Christian nationalism, we discover challenges and pathways to personal empowerment and peace.What we're talking about this episode:Election Anxiety & Healing Trauma:How the current political climate exacerbates religious trauma and what it means for those caught at the intersection.The Christian Nationalism Conundrum: We break down the long game of Christian nationalism and its profound impact on personal and societal boundaries.Mastering Self-Care: Learn practical techniques for visualization, bodily awareness, and establishing emotional and physical boundaries, especially in tumultuous times.Navigating Family & Information Overload: Get insights on handling tricky family dynamics and shielding yourself from the chaos of constant news cycles.Embracing Change and Lightness: Amidst serious discussions, we find moments of lightness and strategies to embrace ease and joy in everyday life.Dr. Laura Anderson, author of When Religion Hurts You, and the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery have created the: Religious Trauma and the Elections Course: www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/holy-ghosting/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We are thrilled to have Julia and Jeremiah (aka the Sexvangelicals) back on the podcast today to wrap up our Religious Trauma and the Elections mini-series. Today's topic: Project 2025. If you haven't heard about it or don't know what, consider this your catch up course to all things related to Project 2025. And in our opinion, this project gets an “F”. Jeremiah and Julia explain various policies, the language used, the history behind why we got here and how it connects to Christian Nationalism. To Connect with the Sexvangelicals:www.sexvangelicals.com Substack (Relationship 101): https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/IG: @sexvangelicalsResources mentioned in the pod:Andra Watkins' article: https://project2025istheocracy.substack.com/p/why-anti-abortion-laws-christianSexvangelicals' first Project 2025 article: https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/p/what-does-the-republican-party-actuallySexvangelicals' second Project 2025 article: https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/p/what-is-a-family-according-to-theLink to Project 2025 (the entire 900-pages!)This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

The Sunday School Dropouts are proving their dropout status today! We are talking about all things White Christian Nationalism, including the origins, impacts, and how to heal with Rev. Angela Denker. Angela is the author of “Red State Christians” and the forthcoming book “Disciples of White Jesus” where she writes about the growing phenomenon of White Christian Nationalism and its impact on a specific group of people: White men and boys. Throughout this conversation we begin to see  how this extremist approach began, why it thrives and even how to navigate relationships with people in our lives who live according to those values. Andrew and Laura also discuss the term ‘gaslighting' and explain what it truly means–instead of how it's talked about on social media and in pop culture–as a way to help people better organize and name what happened to them.Join the Religious Trauma and the Elections Support Groups! Find out more and/or sign up here!Books discussed today:Angry White Men by Michael KimmelConnect with our Guest:Rev. Angela Denker @denkerangela This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe

Dan Miller is back on the podcast today with an excellent discussion regarding the way that extremist political groups use fear and trauma as a way to move their message forward, gain control, and get followers. It's an episode you won't want to miss as Dan, Andrew, and Laura dive into why groups target specific age ranges, the neuroscience of extreme thinking and propaganda, and how this can result in trauma. Today we are lifting Russell Brand up in prayer.  To find out more about the Religious Trauma and the Elections self-led course, click here. Use code SUNDAYSCHOOLDROPOUTS for $50 off!Registration for the Religious Trauma and the Elections support group opens next week! Find out more about it here!Connect with Dan Miller:dan@traumaresolutionandrecovery.com danielmillerswaj@gmail.com https://www.straightwhiteamericanjesus.com/ This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co

We're excited to have Brad Onishi back on the Sunday School Dropouts today! When we were thinking of what was important for folks to know as it related to religious trauma and the elections, we knew that we needed Brad on the podcast to talk about the history of religion and politics! This episode takes a deep dive, exploring the past 70 years of religious and political movements that joined together to get us to the point we are at now. Brad also shares about the practicalities of what this looks like in the current election cycle and politics as a whole. To find out more about the Religious Trauma and the Elections self-led course, click here. Use code SUNDAYSCHOOLDROPOUTS for $50 off!Registration for the Religious Trauma and the Elections support group opens next week! Find out more about it here!Here's the link to listen to Brad's episode regarding the impact of purity culture on men.Connect with Brad and support his work: Straight White American Jesus websiteStraight White American Jesus Podcast is available wherever you listen to podcasts!“Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next” by Brad OnishiFollow on IG @straightwhitejc This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

We are thrilled today to have back on our show April Ajoy! This is the third time April's been on our podcast but the first time without her partner Beecher…and as much as we love Beecher, we are so glad to have April here today as she'll be talking to us about her book that is coming out TODAY called “Star Spangled Jesus” which is available wherever you buy books and is also on Audible. The links for the book are in the show notes! April is a content creator who uses humor to shine light on the harmful, toxic and sometimes just weird traits of American Christianity. She is the Co-host of The Non-Binary Marriage Podcast and Co-Host of Evangelicalish and also co-hosts a weekly episode on The New Evangelicals podcast feed focusing on what's been happening in the culture and its connection to religion that week. April is passionate about helping others overcome indoctrination and recognizes on a personal level just how difficult that can be. She knows that if she can do it, anyone can! To find out more about the Religious Trauma and the Elections self-led course, click here. Use code SUNDAYSCHOOLDROPOUTS for $50 off!Resources:Jamarcus Tisby books April's book, “Star Spangled Jesus” can be purchased hereFollow April on Instagram and TikTok: @aprilajoy This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe

Want to heal from religious trauma? Then you're listening to the right podcast! Today we are talking with licensed therapist, coach, and Somatic Experiencing practitioner, Jeremy Lehmann. Jeremy talks to us about what the nervous system is, it's roll in trauma, and why it's essential to the process of healing from trauma. We also get into a fascinating discussion regarding how the absence of safe and stable connection can also result in trauma through the topic of lack of sex education in high control religion.  We'll also be bringing to you our first vocabulary lesson of the season, discussing the term ‘trauma response'. Do Andrew and Laura think that it's a term worth using or has social media co-opted yet another term to make it mean something entirely different? Tune in to hear their thoughts! Sign ups are still happening for a couple of the Fall Support Groups at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery! Check them out here! Resources discussed today:  To be Loved by Frank Anderson, MD Guest Info:  Jeremy Lehmann, LMFT, SEP www.thrivery.com  This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery  The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions. The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups.  Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything  Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com  Hosts:  Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs Music by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji  Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at www.kevincrowe.co

We're back! After a summer filled with Vacation Bible School and all of the adventures that go along with it, we are back for another season of Sunday School Dropouts! In this episode Andrew and Laura talk about some of the amazing guests and topics that will be coming on season 2 and are excited about bringing back our “touchstone topics”, a mini-series on religious trauma and the elections, sharing survivor stories of leaving and healing from religious trauma, and focusing on various aspects of medical and financial trauma and how they intersect with religious trauma. This week we'll begin our touchstone topic series with a discussion about what religious trauma is! Our touchstone topic series is one where we talk about some of the foundations of religious trauma, the nervous system, the difference between deconstruction and deconversion, and adverse religious experiences.  And we're also bringing back some of your favorite segments! In this episode we have Flannelgraph Storytime where we have a fascinating discussion on the impact of James Dobson and the Strong Willed Child propaganda. And, we can't forget prayer requests! This week we're lifting up …the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives on Hulu and the bizarre case out of Aurora, CO where a faith based therapist is accused of abuse of her clients as she tried to reunify them with their criminally charged father.  Resources that are discussed during this episode: When Religion Hurts You by Laura Anderson In an Unspoken Voice by Peter Levine Healing Trauma by Peter Levine No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz Sign up for Fall Support Groups at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery  The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions. The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups.  Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything  Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com  Hosts:  Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs Music by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji  Editing by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

This month the Sunday School Dropouts did some field-reporting…that is, we went on a field trip to the Ark Encounter and we took our friends April and Beecher with us. In today's episode we share more about our experience at the Ark, what it was like to venture back into fundamentalist Christianity, listening to a live-lecture by Ken Hamm, and go through the story of Noah in Genesis as we look at it from a different perspective than when we were in VBS the first time around! To lighten the mood you'll also be able to listen in on our sanctified gossip session as we talk about all things Christian persecution at the Olympics and the weirdness of JD Vance. And we have a few other segments too, to round out another great episode of Vacation Bible School–Sunday School Dropouts edition!  We are thrilled to be joined again on this episode by the incredible April Ajoy and Beecher Reuning. April and Beecher are the co-hosts of the Non-Binary Marriage podcast which you can find wherever you listen to podcasts. April can be found across all social media platforms at @aprilajoy and Beecher can be found across all social media platforms at @hellobeecher.  And, if you're looking for a place to spend that extra tithe money, make sure to grab a copy of April's forthcoming book, “Star Spangled Jesus” which is available for pre-order wherever you buy books!  This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery  The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions. The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups.  Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything  Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com  Hosts:  Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs Music by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji  Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co  

If you experience toxic relationships you just can't leave or feel like you lose yourself every time you're in a relationship - this episode is for you!!  Kate has an important conversation with Dr. Somer Nicole, all about why the state of your nervous system plays such a massive role in what you experience in your dating & relationships.   Dr Somer has developed her own body of work called the Somatic Reparenting Method, showing women how to heal and regulate their own systems - which will significantly support you having healthy, thriving relationships in your life.   About the Guest: Dr. Somer Nicole has over 20 years of experience and specializes in Trauma Resolution and is the creator of the Somatic Reparenting Method™️, focuses on Nervous System Regulation and is a Safe & Sound Protocol Provider. She helps one fast-track their nervous system into increased capacity and resilience, rewiring the effects of trauma. Dr. Somer is also a CranioSacral Therapist, Reiki Master, a Kundalini & Hatha yoga teacher, and specializes in Pelvic Floor recovery. Somer is passionate about helping people heal and empower themselves at the deepest level. Instagram: @dr_somer_nicole Website: www.somahealingcollective.com About the Hosts: Catherine Danieli is a love and relationship educator helping women heal fear-based relationship patterns so that they can experience radical self love and healthy, extraordinary romantic relationships. She not only cares about helping women find love but learn the skills and tools to make love last. She is incredibly passionate about conscious relationship and empowering people to create healthy relationships in their lives. She believes healthy relationships are what will heal the world. After overcoming her own painful journey through love addiction and codependency, and seeing so many people in pain over love, she has devoted her life to teaching women how to transform, heal and have new experiences in partnership. She works with women 1:1, leads workshops and retreats as well as couples' intensives.  http://www.CatherineDanieli.com 1:1 Work - https://hello.dubsado.com/public/form/view/5efa0d4b1b74266574a0e48e Waitlist for the Invitation   Kate Harlow is the Owner & Creator of The Unscript'd Woman - a mission to liberate women all over the world to throw away the script and create a life that lights up their own soul. She mentors women to have a healthy, thriving relationship within themselves - so they can experience vibrant, expansive, growth based relationships in their lives. Kate has coached and mentored thousands of people for almost 15 years - facilitating life changing love talks, workshops and retreats globally. She's fiercely committed to helping women break free from the old, outdated, fantasy based paradigm of love - so they can experience real, liberated love in every facet of their lives.   Website:  https://www.theunscriptdwoman.com/   Kenya Luxury Safari Retreat November 16-23, 2024 https://travelsoulsisters.com/the-kenya-experience   The Immersion in Corfu, Greece  April 26- May 3, 2025 https://www.theunscriptdwoman.com/the-immersion   Thanks for listening! It means so much to us that you listened to our podcast! If you would like to continue the conversation with us, head on over to our Facebook group, the New Truth Movement at https://www.facebook.com/groups/209821843509179/ With this podcast, we are building an international community of The New Truth Movement. If you know someone who would benefit from this message or could be an awesome addition to our community, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a note in the comment section below! Follow the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can follow the podcast app on your mobile device. Leave us a review We appreciate every bit of feedback to make this a value-adding part of your day. Ratings and reviews from our listeners not only help us improve, but also help others find us in their podcast app. If you have a minute, an honest review on Apple Podcasts goes a long way! Thank You!

In this conversation, Dr. Laura Anderson, an expert in religious trauma, discusses the definition and impact of religious trauma, particularly in the context of purity culture. She shares her personal experience growing up in a high control religion and the effects it had on her. Dr. Anderson emphasizes the importance of recognizing religious trauma as a form of trauma and highlights the various ways it can manifest, including mental health disorders, physical issues, and relational difficulties. She also discusses the role of social media in the rise of deconstruction and the need for support for those leaving high control religions. In this conversation, Laura Anderson and Cody discuss the impact of purity culture and religious trauma. They explore the physical, psychological, and relational effects of purity culture, including sexual pain and dysfunction, guilt and shame, hypervigilance, and trauma. They also discuss the shift from a focus on religious freedom to Christian nationalism in the United States. Laura shares her hope for change and healing, emphasizing the importance of living fully and experiencing pleasure and relationship. She also mentions her book, 'When Religion Hurts You: Healing from Religious Trauma and the Impact of High-Control Religion,' and her work at the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. For Training: www.codyharman.com Instagram: mrcoachcody Email: trainwithcoachcody@gmail.com

In this episode, Elizabeth Kristoff, an expert in nervous system health, shares her journey into somatic healing after experiencing severe nervous system issues. She emphasizes the critical role of the nervous system in trauma resolution and behavior change, highlighting the importance of practical, embodied approaches like applied neurology, movement, sensory stimulus, and visual system rehabilitation. Elizabeth and Brian discuss the foundational work necessary for trauma healing, the impact of stress on the visual system, and the connection between trauma, neurodivergence, and developmental issues. They explore the power of shaking, vocalization, and the tingle response in trauma release, as well as the role of fascia, the diaphragm, and facial expressions in the healing process. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize compassion, patience, and meeting individuals where they are on their healing journey. Elisabeth Kristof: Home » Brain-Based Wellness (brainbased-wellness.com) Neurology of Change (neurosomaticintelligence.com) Dr. Brian Tierney: Contact - Somatic Doctor Integrative therapies, Brian Tierney Ph.D., RCST, Licensed Psychologist. Somatic Therapy, Biodynamic Craniosacral Work, Mentoring and Teaching

We're excited to bring you another episode of Vacation Bible School–Sunday School Dropouts edition! This month we are joined by our favorite podcast editor, Kevin Crowe (@jesusunfollower on social media) to talk about the story of Job. And let us tell ya, this is *not* the story you heard in VBS! We'll also be talking about some of the latest things going on in the world during our “Sanctified Gossip” segment and you won't want to miss our Silly Songs and Arts & Crafts time either!  If you're looking for support to help with the increased stress and anxiety of the election cycle, we are offering a self-led course that is filled with resources, lectures, skills and practices to help you navigate this chaotic time. Find out more information here and use the code ELECTIONS to get $15 off! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery  The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions. The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups.  Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything  Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com  Hosts:  Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs Music by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji  Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

This is one of the most important and practical episodes you will likely ever listen to! As more people speak out publicly, sharing their stories of abuse in the church, more and more churches, denominations, and pastors are growing litigious, further abusing victims in civil court. If you're thinking of going public with your story, LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE! Featuring Jenai Auman, author of the recently released book Othered. We'll Cover: Question to ask yourself before going public with your storyThings to consider before going publicTips to mitigate your riskHOW to prepare IF you get suedWhat to expect from lawyersAnd More* Disclaimer: This is NOT legal Advice! * Read this article, written by Jenai, that inspired Katherine to ask her to talk about this on the podcast. This is seriously one episode Katherine has REALLY wanted to do. Jenai wrote a companion article with examples of corroboration here. Jenai Auman is a Filipina American writer, artist, and author of Othered. She draws from her experience and education to write on healing, hope, and holistic spiritual formation practices.Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden's newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing's upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcastTranscript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing and this is Uncertain.Starting in April of this year, I began partnering with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery, working as a practitioner for this organization. This organization's CEO is Dr. Laura Anderson. You may be familiar with her. She's been on the pod a couple of different times. She's also the author of the book, When Religion Hurts You.She's awesome. She's the boss. I work with her and a bunch of other really great practitioners over there. If you are looking for mental health professional, a trained, highly qualified, highly experienced mental health professional that can help you navigate religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and all of the sub categories that fall beneath that.I encourage you to check out Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. I am currently accepting a few new clients, and there are several other practitioners that are also accepting clients. I know that's a big thing that comes up a lot in the religious trauma spiritual abuse [00:01:00] world is folks just really struggling to find a mental health professional that understands religious trauma and spiritual abuse and the nuances and complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism and church culture.So if that is something that you are looking for, I encourage you to check them out. The link will be in the show notes. Also in April of this year, I signed a book deal with Lake Dry Books. My book, Surprise Surprise is about spiritual abuse. It will be coming out in sometime in 2025. Date is yet to be determined, so I encourage you to sign up for Tears of Eden's mailing list for updates on the release of that book. The need that this book is going to fill in the world of religious trauma and spiritual abuse recovery, that is something that I see lacking in theIt's the need of making the connection between the theology of evangelicalism that actually leads [00:02:00] to the abuse happening. I'm not seeing that a lot in the literature today. Our guest a couple of weeks ago, Krista Brown, she made that connection in her memoir, Baptist Land. But outside of that, it's not really a common thing that folks are addressing. So I felt like it was a pretty important subject to navigate in my book. It's going to be mostly. Following my journey of recovery, but it's not a memoir and it is also going to be pulling some stuff from the work with Tears of Eden. There are direct quotes from podcasts that you may have listened to So sign up for the mailing list so that you can get updates about that. Today's guest is my friend and colleague Janai Allman, and I am so excited about this episode. This is an episode that I have been wanting to do for a couple years. And a few weeks before Janai had, and I had this episode scheduled to record, she sent out a Substacks article about the very subject [00:03:00] that we're going to be talking about today.We are going to talk about her book that just came out, Othered, and we are going to talk about the book a little bit as well, But Janai graciously agreed to have this conversation with me because we both learned a lot of things about telling our stories publicly and how to stay safe and also make sure we get to say our side of the story and those two things are super important on the other side of abuse.So very excited about this episode. I hope this is one that people will re listen to over and over and over again, and I am so excited to be able to include this as a resource for Tears of Eden and for folks who encounter Tears of Eden. Janai Almon is a Filipina American writer and artist who draws from her years in church leadership as well as her trauma informed training to write on healing, hope, and the way forward.She is passionate about providing language to readers so they can find a faith inspiring that freeze. She received her bachelor's degree in behavioral health science, and is currently pursuing a [00:04:00] master's in spiritual formation at Northeastern Seminary. Janiyah lives in Houston, Texas with her husband, Tyler, and their sons, Quinn and Graham.Here is my interview with Janiyah Allman Katherine: Hello, Janai. Jenai: Hi. How are you? I'm really good. I'm so glad we're doing this. Katherine: Yes, me too. I'm very excited about this episode and the subject that we are going to talk about today because it is one, as you and I have, talked about prior to the episode is something that is a big discussion within the survivor community for folks who are wanting to go public with their stories and discussing how to protect ourselves from the potential for a civil lawsuit.It is not an uncommon thing and it's becoming more common like I'm, I'm seeing it happen a lot. You just went through experience of writing a book before we [00:05:00] jumped on, you talked about going through a legal review when you were writing your book. So everything that we're sharing today is going to just be to help people have some awareness about this experience of going public with your story and protecting yourself because you want to, you want to protect yourself. As we jump in, I definitely want to highlight your book . So give folks a just rundown of what your book is and why you wanted to write this book. Jenai: Yeah, I, so my book is a faith oriented book, so I know that some people who might listen to Uncertain, they might be in varying degrees of faith, or totally deconverted altogether, I make space for the deconverted, and but also, I wrote this space reorienting, or I wrote the book reorienting, like, how I posture myself to Like the stories in the Bible and I weave in personal narrative.So this is what I experienced. How does that, how is that at all in accord with scripture? How, and it isn't [00:06:00] a lot of what I experienced while working on staff at a church, one of those churches that are often in those podcasts where they talk about the main guy who started the affiliation yelling at people.Like, I think people, I was a part of a very high control, very toxic masculinity church planting network. And I was ostracized and kicked out essentially othered in from my church because I wouldn't, I wouldn't shut up and I wouldn't, I wouldn't stop advocating for myself. And so I wrote othered.To tell my story and to essentially provide a road map to this is why I still am a Christian. I kind of detangled my experience of that space from the harm I experienced. And I have found a renewed relationship in God. However, it doesn't land per like I'm not in a church today. I'm not and some people, they are so mad that I'm not in a church today.Which, that's like a whole other thing. And then other people are going to be mad that Katherine: you still identify as a [00:07:00] Christian. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. Like I'm not in a church. I still identify as a Christian. I'm in seminary. So that makes it like even kookier for people. And, and so I sit in a weird place where even as I tell my story, sometimes I still feel very othered because I haven't landed where other people wanted me to land.But that's kind of the whole point. Like I want people to feel free to land wherever, even my, like, I don't mention my husband very often, but even my husband has landed somewhere different in faith. And that's like much more toward deconversion. And so I hold space for a lot of different people. So anyway, I wrote other, I share, it's not a memoir.So it doesn't tell even people get mad whenever I say, I don't say everything that happened in the book, and I think we're going to talk about all of that and maybe why I didn't do that. A lot of that is just to protect myself. I think a lot of people want that, though, and they don't understand the risk that goes into telling everything like in a memoir style.I just use [00:08:00] pieces of the story. Like, my story is not up for debate. But I just used these instances, instances and moments to say, here's where something in me fractured and I had to find my way back to myself again. So yeah, I'm really glad to share. Katherine: Absolutely. And I really appreciate you sort of setting things up and just kind of letting folks know like this is where I have landed.Yeah, I had space for other people for where they have landed. I think that's really helpful because I think a lot of folks from evangelicalism will, like, come on and talk about you know, what they believe. And there is this, like, very subtle agenda of, like, I want you to believe the same thing as me which comes straight out of, These toxic evangelical cultures of like, we can't interact with you unless you believe the same thing.And so I really appreciate that. You've set it up that way and that you have written the book that way pertaining to the subject that we're going to [00:09:00] discuss today. What did you, what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put it on all of the other public writing that you have written. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.And now back to the show. Katherine: what made you feel like it was important to write this story? in a public way and put it in a book and put [00:10:00] it on all of the other public writing that you have written.Jenai: Yeah. Well, it was, I can imagine cause there was a lot of back and forth between me and the leadership of the church of like, what was wrong, what wasn't wrong. And, and I was watching them and this is probably something you, you resonate with also, but like watching them make it make sense in their heads, like take this really.dumb argument that they've made and they've kind of loaded it with a lot of Christian speak to somehow justify like whatever conclusion that they came to. So in short, I was terminated from my position. They never used the word terminated though. They always used transition out. That was kind of a part of the The Christian speak, you know, yes, it made it sound like more polite to them as if what they weren't what they were doing to me was not impolite or like rude or loving.They were like, Oh, we're just transitioning her out. We're just like jet [00:11:00] gently pushing her out and telling her to shut the hell up. I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a you're allowed to pass. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: And so Yeah, I was like, you use these grace laced words and so I kind of started fighting back with no, you're not supposed to do this isn't so in many ways the book and the book's not an argument.It's not formatted as an argument. It is essentially kind of how I kept fighting back. And I don't even say this in the book. It's it was my resistance and how my resistance played out over the course of time Using the very scriptures that they were trying to use against me and I was saying no, no, no, no, no Like Katherine: yeah, Jenai: you know I think a big a big banner scripture and it's not in the book at all Ezekiel 34 like you are feeding on the sheep I am a sheep that was in your care and the ways in which I was treated wasn't okay And you're supposed to hear my voice And you didn't just not hear me.You like silenced me. And [00:12:00] so writing the book was pivotal for me because I think many other people are having to deal with that too. That doublespeak, duplicitousness. And they don't know how to combat it. And for whatever reason, maybe it's my stubborn, Filipina nature or maybe it's a little bit of like Texas stubborn in me as well, but I was like you You will not overpower me.You have done everything to like push me out, but I I will Like there was something stubborn in me that was like, I will dig down. Cause I know something in this is not right. And I'm going to keep speaking up. So yeah, I thought it was super pivotal to give people language. And I think some of that says that in my bio, like I want to provide people with language.I don't know what it is. I don't want to tell people what to do, but I want to give them language to say, this is what my resistance looks like, and Katherine: I Jenai: hope and healing, I think healing and resistance are both and and I think this is what you can envision for yourself also. Katherine: Right. I love that healing and resistance are both [00:13:00] and and for whatever reason that someone chooses to go public with their story.Part of that reason could just could be the healing reason like that. That is that feels important to me as a part of my healing. I need this story to be public. It could be just to teach people as you, as you chose to do just to sort of show people. Here are. other ways to interpret these things that these power hoarders are just, you know, funneling at you and there's so many of them and they're so powerful and they're so convincing and they're so nice when they say it, it's really hard to, to fight back even just in our own minds.So there's so many reasons why someone feels that it's important. to go public with their story. And what we're going to talk about today, folks, is how to protect yourself if you decide to go [00:14:00] public with your story. Disclaimer at the very beginning. Neither Janai nor I are legal counsel, we are not lawyers, we have life experience that we are going to share, we are going to give recommendations, but we encourage everyone to do your own research, look into this yourself, know what the risks are because there are risks.When you put your story of being abused in public and make the best wise decision for you and your health and where you are in your story. So with that disclaimer, we're going to kind of talk about two different parts in this episode. One, we're just going to talk about ways that you can safely tell your story that might mitigate your opportunities or the potential risk of being sued by someone.Yeah. That said. Someone can file a civil lawsuit for anything. They don't have to have corroborating evidence or anything. [00:15:00] They can make up a total lie to file a civil lawsuit. All they need is Money, really, that's really the only thing that they need. And so we're never going to be able to completely eliminate the risk for being sued, but there are some things that we have learned on our journeys that can help us navigate and protect ourselves in the event that that actually happens.So that's going to be the part two of this episode. jumping right in. If you have some things that you have learned in your process about ways to phrase things, how to phrase things, things that you learned while writing your book of, okay, I can't say that, but I can say this, would love to hear just a rundown of some stuff that you have learned in your process of telling your story publicly.Jenai: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll say sometimes I share parts of my story on Instagram and no [00:16:00] one's really policing what I say on Instagram. But there was much more kind of like being cautious and careful in a publication, like a book. And so just before I wrote. Or finished the manuscript of Othered. I think it was Prince Harry's memoir.Yeah, his memoir came out. And I, and I was like, I want to read that. And I just read it before even finishing the manuscript. Just because I wanted to see, how does he tell this? And not have the power of the throne come down at him. And if anyone, I began paying attention, I mean the story is wild, but also began paying attention to how he told it, or how the ghost writer was telling it for him.And I don't know if anyone else has read it, but there's kind of like, sometimes you read like, him saying, did this happen? He's like self doubting. Yes. In, in the book. Did you pick up on that also? Huh. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like he was like, I, am I remembering this correctly? Almost as [00:17:00] if like, you can't come after me.I'm telling you that it's just my memory. It's just Katherine: memory. Jenai: So I learned that it is different to write something as 100 percent fact, even though there are things in my book that were 100 percent fact. This is what happened, but because I didn't have evidence or I didn't have like a screenshot or a recording of the meeting to say this is 100 percent fact, I had to say.And this is such, it's weaker. It makes for weaker writing, but it protects you more. I had to say, I remember this person saying, Katherine: yeah. Jenai: Whereas before I had it written in dialogue, like so and so said this to me, and I responded in this way, and they said, we need this corroborated, or we need evidence, or you need to re write it and say, I remember.this happening. I remember this happening. And I thought, man, like, it kind of sucks a little bit. It sucks the, like the, the wind from your sails. But I remember that being a [00:18:00] pivotal a pivotal point in like, Oh, then there were some things I do. And I, I remember, I don't know if anyone's in the middle of anything.And I'm in a one party state, meaning as long as one party in the conversation consents to a recording. You can record the conversation. And so long as I was a party, I, I, I was like, I give myself consent to record this conversation, something in my gut before I even left my position, something in my gut said, Start recording these conversations.And so I did. You're going to have to look up your own local laws to see if you're a one party or a two party state. Sometimes you need consent from everyone in the meeting before you can record. I know California is like that and maybe others. Yeah. And so I remember hitting record. And feeling a little bit bad about that.I'm like, this is, this is, this seems weird and creepy on my part at the time, but there was something in my gut [00:19:00] that was telling me, record this conversation. And I remember texting a fellow coworker who was also experiencing the same like mess that I was. And I texted her and I said, is it wrong of me to record this conversation?And she goes, Oh my gosh, yes. And I thought it was wrong. Yes. She, even she like, even in who, And even she couldn't, cause it feels that creepy. Yeah. Like even the people who are in it with you might think, oh, this isn't gracious of you. But I didn't listen to her and I thought I was going to keep recording.And now, like if I talk to her now. And I told her, Hey, remember when you told me I should stop recording? I didn't, she would probably say, I'm so glad you didn't listen to me. Right. I'm so glad you just kept doing it. And so I, I did have evidence. I did have evidence. I had screenshots. Instagram messages, or not Instagram, my goodness.IPhone, iMessage. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Like they have like these settings where it says, you know, delete my messages after a month, delete 'em after a year or whatever. I [00:20:00] turn that feature off, so I have a ton of like, storage on my phone from all my stored messages, but that's really so that I have all the evidence.And so I took screenshots. Yeah. And I put all of that in a folder to send off. For those that don't know, when you read a, when you write a book, they usually do what's called a permissions read. Meaning if you added stories of other people your editor will go through and read to see who do you need permission from.And they'll give you like a form to send to that friend who says, I give permission for this story to be in the book. And for me, I thought, well, I don't know how this is going to work. I'm not going to get permission from anyone to tell the story. Katherine: Yeah, Jenai: and they emailed me back and they were like, congratulations, you don't need to get permission.However, we do need to do a corroboration read or a legal read of the book, and this is what our lawyer has flagged as like comments in the document for like, this is where you need [00:21:00] corroboration or change the word or evidence and Yeah, so that's kind of like an overview of the process. Katherine: And corroboration is another person saying, yes, that.Yes, Jenai: yes, that happened. Even, even though you don't have evidence, if someone else can say, yes, this happened, I was there, I witnessed it. I know that that is exactly how that it played out. They are kind of like your witness. It is not evidence. It's your witness. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And that is. For them and for you in the event that you do get sued.We already have this ready, we have to go, we have someone backing this up, we have someone that has verified that this is true for that again doesn't necessarily prevent the lawsuit from happening, but it is stuff that can just protect you in the event. Some other things that are helpful that you are.Probably alluding to saying things like allegedly, or it is my opinion [00:22:00] appeared to me that X, Y said this, or it seemed as if, and that feels so weird saying that when it's like your story and it happened to you, but it's also just kind of acknowledging. A human limitation. So just kind of putting it in that category.And, and memory memory does change over time. It doesn't mean that it wasn't 100 percent true, but it we're just we're just kind of acknowledging human beings have limitations and I am a human being, and it's and it's protection. It's okay to protect yourself. You are not being dishonest, but it is, it does feel so weird, especially when we come out of these environments where we have been silenced and our story and our narrative gets taken by other people and twisted and reframed.We just want to say it like this happened and this person was so horrible, awful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there are [00:23:00] spaces to do that. And. Maybe write the first draft with like every expletive you ever wanted to use, get it all out and then go back. and adjust it for public consumption. Maybe wait a few days.And so yes, those emotions need to be felt. Those emotions need to be gotten out and you also want to protect yourself. So both of those things can happen. And the importance of just the reality that the story is out there and there may be some things that just feel a little weird to say them a certain way, but it has a story out there.How do you navigate that of like, this wasn't the most ideal way to write this but it was the safest way to write this. How do you navigate that experience? Jenai: Yeah. I remember In, I think it's in the first chapter of the book, I am certain it's in the first chapter of the book, because I start the book with a story [00:24:00] of my first day of work that started with my executive director yelling Or, you know, whatever your definition of, yeah, I think it was yelling I called it not yelling, but he was raising his voice because, you know, there is no, I can't track the decibel level of what he's saying, and like, I don't want that to be a whole argument, but even that, I kind of cushioned and said, He wasn't yelling, but he was raising his voice to the degree that everyone in the building could hear him.You know what I mean? Katherine: Yeah, and so people are going to be like, he was yelling. Jenai: Yeah, he was yelling. And so it's subversive little things like that. And so. I, I kind of cushioned where I could, but then later in the chapter when I, my first chapter is kind of about giving people terms, because people use spiritual abuse in different ways, or church hurt in different ways, and so I kind of tracked with like, this is how I'm using them for the book.So I tell that [00:25:00] story, and then I share kind of my definition of these terms, and because I put some cushion in the story later when I talk about that experience, when I name what happened in that experience, I say, this was spiritually abusive. And I just say it. I felt like I had the confidence to say it there, because I had the allegedly in the cushion.I didn't, I didn't have to write this was a, I alleged that this was spiritual abuse. I could just say it with punch and power later in the chapter. And so there are kind of subversive ways like that, that you as a writer, or even if you tell your story because I know some people might be Not everyone's writing, some people are podcasters, some people are sharing their stories in different ways and so there are there are subversive ways to tell the truth, such that you are clever, and you can protect yourself as well.There's something, some verse in Matthew that's like, you know, be as wise as a serpent. But be as gentle as a dove [00:26:00] and I think I do that in the book like I had to navigate this I wanted the book to be compassionate, but I also wanted to be clever and I wanted to show like I could still tell my story and so yeah, there's places you can put cushion when you need to.And then if you're, if you're clever with your writing, the imagery and or the, you know, the imagination of the reader will fill in the gaps. Thanks. Yeah, Katherine: but then you are still protected. Jenai: Yeah. Katherine: Another, another thing that feels weird is when we're writing about someone who's not a public figure changing names, changing physical identifiers, that also feels super weird.Cause we're like, we just want them to know that it was this person. But the reality is that most people don't know that person. And so thinking of it as a wider. public facing thing rather than the 5, 10, 20, 100, or a thousand people within that space who would know who that is. And that vindication that we [00:27:00] would get from making it obvious who the person is versus protecting ourselves and, and just changing their name, changing physical identifiers.That's different if it is a public figure. When it's a public figure, you can phrase it. a way to phrase it is, or a way to, to angle it or approach it is to write it as if it is for the public good. Like, Hey, a lot of people are asking me about this person. And so I'm sharing this story so that the public will know that this happened, or it isn't, it is important to me that people know that this, you know, public figure.You know, Robbie Zacharias is a predator, you know, like, like stuff like that, where you are, you are saying you're doing it for the public good. And in essence, you are. So that is another way where they, again, they can still see you for [00:28:00] defamation and libel, all of the things. But when you're approaching it as I'm doing this for the, like, Oh, I'm just doing this for the public.And that's what, that's what journalists do. Like they, that's why they write, like, you know, Or that's the ethics that they are supposed to follow of this is important information. This is truth that the public needs to be aware of. And so that's another angle to approach it as and even a way to kind of approach the story as a, as a whole, as you, you did of It's important that people know there's a different way to interpret these verses and making sure that the public knows that there are other ways to say this.And that's another angle. And Jenai: that's why I actually don't use names or even fake names at all in my book. And I think that's a reason why I think people approach it. They're like, this is Jani's story. And I was like, this is really the story of my resistance. It's not the [00:29:00] story of like everything that happened.And so I think that might, like, you know, I think people want to hear like the nitty gritty and I. I would have had to use so much more mental and emotional labor if I was telling stories of how they allegedly kept using my social security number for their church credit card 18 months after I was fired.You know, like, I, I would have to, like, it would take so long. So much more mental labor for me to talk about, like how financial fraud came about or how, how all these other things happened and changing names. And so that's why I was like, I can't write a memoir. I'm not a memoirist. Katherine: Mm-Hmm, . Jenai: But I can tell my story of my resistance and in doing it, framing it that way, I could tell pieces of my story and then not use names.And so I say things like executive director. Yeah, or a senior pastor or lead pastor. And so the people who [00:30:00] are there who read the book will know exactly who I'm talking about. And another way that I've protected myself, and I don't know if a lot of people know this, is that I actually helped plant the church.And what I mean, what I say, what I mean when I say that is, In Texas, when you file for a non profit or corporate, a non profit corporation status with our state, you have to have three signing directors to kind of legalize this organization with, you know, the Austin. the state capitol. And I was one of the signers.So there, it was me and two other guys as signing directors that that stuff is open access. So if you go and Google that stuff, you find my name connected to that church. One way that I've protected myself is I don't write under my full name, Jani Amen. That's my first and my middle name. And When you, I mean, they could still probably find, if someone digs enough, [00:31:00] they can find it.But I can say I put, like, measures in place to not be connected. I don't name the church, that's another thing. I don't talk about even the neighborhood that it was in in the book. So people can't geographically locate it. So, in many ways, I have hemmed myself in from further harm that they could do, and I've just, I've provided cushion in other ways, not just in the book, but in how I approach telling my story, and a pen name, that's not deceptive to readers, that's like, pen names Yeah, pen names are, yeah, it's like industry standard people I mean, that's happened, pen names have happened for a long time.And so I didn't, I'm still writing under my genuine names. I'm just writing under my first and my middle name. Which is what a lot of people do. So yeah, that was just another way I protected myself. Katherine: Yeah. And then another [00:32:00] small detail that could play a role is the names of states lawsuits are, are usually organized by a state and it's called jurisdiction. So if it's if it's possible to remove even state identifiers and just use the area of the country or change the state or whatever, then that just that ties things up. Legally within the context of of a lawsuit and can make it like if it's outside of the, the person who did the wrong, allegedly did the wrong outside of their state and they have to sue across state lines or, or something like that.And, and there's no, indication that it actually happened within the state, within the writing then that can just make it a little bit trickier to file a lawsuit and to, to get it [00:33:00] through. And so it just makes it a little bit more challenging. So those are just some other things to consider as you're, as you're writing.I know when I write about my family, I always say the South. I never say the state. I always say the South. I've started doing very recently. And even if people ask me like in person where I grew up, I just say the South and they'll be like, where? And I was like, I just say the South. Just cause I don't want that connection to a specific state for those jurisdiction reasons.Another fun fact tidbit that is not legal advice. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash [00:34:00] support.Katherine: All right. Anything more we want to say about that before we jump into the experience of. working with lawyers and what what might happen on the other side of a lawsuit. Jenai: No, I, I think that kind of tidies up the I will say I have a very unique name.Not every, if you're like a Rachel Smith, You know, you probably have, if someone Googles you they're gonna find so many other Rachel Smiths. And so with the pen name thing, I don't want anyone to freak out or feel like they have to change their name, especially if your name means a lot to you. So please, I just want to be like really sensitive to that.As a Jani Amon, I, you know, or just a Jani in general, they're going to find me. I'm going to be on page one of the Google there, there are more of us than I realize, but the, there aren't as many who are public on the internet. And so, yeah, I would say that's the only thing I can say a Houston church and everyone's like Katherine: Yeah. We'll find you. People find you. And I mean, that is something that you can do. It's not, you know, [00:35:00] It's a it's an option for for protection using using the the pen name.And I think, as you said, if it's. very intentional that we're not trying to like go after this person and take them down. It, it helps. Those are just little things that can help. As we jump into talking about the bum, bum, bum, bum, what if you do get sued? Let's talk about some ways that We can protect ourselves in the event that that happens.It is not uncommon and just want to let folks know from where I sit in the work that I do, I am seeing, if you're talking about the spiritual abuse space and going public about abuse that pastors have done or denominations or whatever, I am watching pastors and denominations and organizations become more litigious.They are, they are fighting back. By filing civil suits. [00:36:00] Now it is my opinion. We need to also be fighting back and filing civil suits. But when you've been abused, a lot of times you don't want to do that. And that is it's over for you. You are moving on and health and you do not want to interact with that person anymore.But the, the increase of lawsuits and civil suits from. Pastors suing folks who have accused them of abuse that is growing and I project is probably going to continue to grow as they fight back and they lose power. So it is not. a unlikely event if you start going public and start talking about specific people especially and specific denominations especially.Very sad, just going to acknowledge that right here that that even needs to be a reality but as you absolutely quoted at the beginning Be Wise is Wise as serpents and gentle as doves and this is just a way to be [00:37:00] real wise when we start going public with our stories. Now, one thing to just be aware of, of I don't know that a lot of people know this but you can get Insurance for yourself for things like liable defamation, slander.And if you, I recommend talking to a local broker in your city and just say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. I have a podcast or I put a lot of stuff on my website or I'm writing a book and I need coverage. What are your recommendations? The brokerage will do, broker will do the research for you and likely present you with some options of things that you can purchase for your own protection.When you do that, when you have insurance and if these, you know, alleged abusers know that you have insurance, it does increase the likelihood that you're going to get sued. And the reason why is because if you get [00:38:00] sued and you have no money there, you file bankruptcy and they get nothing. If you, if they see you and have insurance, then they are increasing the likelihood that they are going to get money because insurances can just decide.This is, it's more expensive to defend this case than to settle this case and they can make that decision that they're going to settle instead of defend. That's just a nuance of how the system works. It does not mean that you are admitting fault. You never have to admit fault. But if an insurance company is covering you, then they might make that choice on your behalf.They can do that. And lawyers know that and so if you have insurance, it does increase. slightly increase your chance of getting sued. However, the alternative is basically you don't have insurance and then you then not only are going through the horrendous [00:39:00] emotional stress of a lawsuit, you're also having to pay for it.So that is just something to consider. As you are going public with your story and something very simple that you can do to protect yourself. You can add it on to your renter's insurance. You can add it on to your mortgage. I think it's a, if it's something that you do regularly, like for you and I, or for myself forming an LLC, forming a nonprofit so that you have the insurance to cover that specific entity and you do all of the work under that entity.So then you are not on the hook should something happen because it's under that entity. Those are just real weird nuances and something that most people are never going to have to know or be aware of. But for this particular thing of going public about our story of abuse is something for folks to be aware of.Would you like to share about what someone might expect [00:40:00] when, if they have to interact with lawyers? Jenai: Yes. And that was hard. That was hard. I don't remember if we said this during the recording, but lawyers are not. Dental? Yes. They're not trauma informed.They don't really, their concern is, Like winning and not necessarily, I mean, that's kind of like what I feel like with pastors, pastors are so many pastors, not all pastors are concerned about like upping the numbers. And sometimes the spiritual abuse happens because they look at the metrics and not at the people.And in many ways, I kind of felt some of that with like, Katherine: Hey, Jenai: just want to make sure that they win, not necessarily that this person is cared for. That's someone else's job. I will say I do not have a lawyer. I had, I worked with the lawyer, the legal representation with my publisher, so when I, when they did that permissions read, that was [00:41:00] not a permissions read, and they transferred it over to a legal read the editor read through, but then the editor also had the lawyer read through.And the lawyer went through and commented on the document certain things. Sometimes I don't know if I was supposed to see these comments or if they were supposed to scrub them. And I, I, because in reading some of their comments, they're trying to think about how can this writer say this? So that really so that everyone is protected, but sometimes they write it as if the writer did something wrong here and it just lands on you kind of hard.And getting the email that said, you know, we need, we need you to provide corroboration. It felt a lot like, They don't believe me. Katherine: Yeah. You have to prove that this was true. Jenai: Yes. Katherine: Yeah. And Jenai: that I knew it was coming from other people I had spoken with and other writers and authors that I know of. I knew that this was coming, so it didn't [00:42:00] hit me too hard.Katherine: Mm-Hmm. . I Jenai: can imagine that it might if other, other people aren't experiencing that, and I think. Oh, I'm so grateful for my agent. So if someone, if you can work with an agent some people say find whatever agent that you can find. But really my encouragement is if you can land with an agent, not just somebody who will have you, but someone who will have your back.Katherine: Yeah, that Jenai: is pretty pivotal. And she was sensitive enough. She also, that was another thing, all my emails between me and my publisher go to my agent as well. My agent is a part of an agency who has a lawyer at the head. And so he kind of, he's not my agent, but he's connected. And so I, I feel very kept at that particular, like, and held.Katherine: Yeah at Jenai: that agency, but my agent was sensitive enough that she got the email and before I responded to the email Or before I even texted her she texted me I want to say five [00:43:00] minutes after the email hit my inbox and she said I want you to know This doesn't mean that they don't believe you. They're all everyone's just concerned about making sure The book is protected that you're protected.This doesn't mean that they don't believe you and I You I knew that it was just really nice to have someone else tell me that. And I know that depending on, I think self publishing is a totally valid journey especially after going through publishing. So not everyone has an agent, but even if you can get someone in your corner, who's a part of walking through the process with you, even if it's not an agent who can read this stuff with you and tell you the things that Even you yourself know, I know that this means that they don't believe me.Hearing it from another person really does help just take care of like your body, your nervous system. And so that, but it was a very hard thing to read. And then the comments from the lawyer herself were also really. really hard. I think [00:44:00] sometimes some people think it's the men and I'm like, no, not Katherine: really.No, no, no, no, no. It is not. It is not. And they, they, again, as you said, they want to win. And so they are thinking about this from a perspective of like, if we get into a lawsuit, how will we win? What are the things that we need in order to win? And so much of the civil lawsuit there are absolutely situations.I know someone who is suing someone for financial fraud right now and it is a genuine situation in which they should be suing that person, but this can also just be this very capitalistic way for power holders to just be bullies. There aren't a lot of like regulations about like, is this a legitimate reason to sue someone.And so. It's a game. A lot of it's a game. And the, the lawyers, a certain type of person ends up being a lawyer, and they are, they're, they're, they're about strategy and the game, and how do I win this game, and they are [00:45:00] not, thinking you are an abuse survivor who has been extremely traumatized and they're not thinking how is this going to land for you.They also tend to have very little other than just like very high level understanding of like rape is sexual abuse. They don't have a lot of understanding about the nuances of abuse and what exactly is abuse. And so. That when you've already gone through an experience of having to justify and defend yourself and, and convince yourself that this is real and this really happened and, and what you are experiencing and how you are navigating your trauma is real to then have this real life experience of people just like not believing you, even though that's not necessarily the case, but it feels like they don't believe you.It can be very re traumatizing, and so we're just, we're just sharing this to just like, just be aware. Make, make a wise choice of, of this with [00:46:00] awareness. And as Janai said, surround yourself with people, give yourself some good people who are going to be there to support you. Also, something to keep in mind, a civil suit is not a criminal suit.You are not a criminal. You do not commit a crime. It might feel like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. Again, people can sue for any reason whatsoever. They do not have to have any, any corroboration. All they have to do is be a bully and have a lot of money. Jenai: Yeah. I write in other actually, like if people, if people you are calling out someone for misuse of power, they will continue to misuse their power and abuse their power to silence you.And so they're going to be like, oops, my bad. They will keep doing it. They will keep coming after you. And I think really the only way to stop it from happening is you have to find your power back. And, and that can be through a number of things, [00:47:00] whether, like, people can corroborate your story, you've gathered evidence I will say for anyone gathering evidence or in the middle of that process, don't necessarily do everything under, like, if you get something to your work email and that work email is connected to the abusive situation, start forwarding everything to your personal email because they will close that email account eventually and you will lose evidence, that was in my case, I've also, there was a pastor in my story.It's not in the book at all, but who has been trying to meet with me or he has been meeting with me for coffee, trying to reconcile, and I feel safe enough to have these conversations with him and not feel talked down to, or not feel, you know, gaslit. I won't let that happen. But because he has extended an olive branch and has kind of admitted to some of the wrongdoing he's done in the corroboration process, I needed to corroborate that I was given, you know two severance options, and I didn't have that screenshot.It was in, [00:48:00] like, a slide. I have a Slack channel that I'm no longer a part of. It was in my old work email that I never forwarded to my personal email. And so I had to get corroboration for that. And I asked this pastor, I will say lawyer or the lawyer for the publisher, they said, if your husband can corroborate, he is allowed to corroborate for your story.Right. So that was super helpful. And I, but instead of in title, my husband did corroborate for some of the things, but for this severance option, I thought I'm going to ask the pastor, my friend to do this, my former friend to do this because he can use the one that gave me the severance options. And it was really like a, let me see the test of your character, whether you'll do this, and he didn't, he said, Katherine: oh, goodness, he Jenai: said, there's just so much more nuance.And I'm not saying whether or not there is nuance to the situation. And by the way, I reject his nuance. It was total crap. I was just saying, the [00:49:00] corroboration is. Did you or did you not give me two severance options? And he wanted to say, you know, he wanted to say, but this happened, like, and I was like, yeah.And I said, can you do this? Can you confirm this? And he said, no, I won't corroborate for you. And I was like, you dirty liar. I was like, fine. I, I, I wasn't upset. I was just like, okay. Katherine: You showed, you showed your colors. Jenai: Yeah, you are actually Like confirming that you are still in alignment with the character of the person that I knew before.And like my lack of trust with you is validated. Like I can no longer trust. I can't, like my, my gut is telling me the right things. I gave you an opportunity to mend some of that trust and you did not. So I still have it in the book that I was given two severance options because my husband was like, yes, you were given two severance options.And I remember that. And if it ever [00:50:00] goes to court and everyone gets deposed, that's what they're going to say, you know, like you, yeah, Katherine: you have to. Yeah. And exactly. I can cut this from the episode, but was one of the options, Like you have to sign an NDA and you get this? Jenai: No. Okay. There was no NDA.We can keep this in. I was given two severance options. Here's the thing, and this is how pivotal, I was the primary on the bank account. Like my, I could have done anything with the finding. I didn't. But that I, I had the passwords to everything. I was the primary check signer. I had a lot of things that I was responsible for.I had no power over because they, you know, kind of cuffed me in terms of like what did and didn't happen. And I was trying to follow the rules. But because I had the access and the responsibility to maintain everything, they couldn't just get rid of me super quick because they needed that access. And [00:51:00] so my severance options were two weeks notice and two months severance.Or I work for two months and I get another three months severance and I, this was 2020. This is when people are losing their jobs. And I thought I need, I actually asked, I said, can I have more severance? Like, this is, you are my brothers. Yes. You are, you are like, tying my hands behind my back.You have given me no voice and no choice, even though I have consistently told you that this man's harmful. Can I have more severance? They ignored that request. I actually met with somebody who, and I told him, I said, remember you were ignored this request. And he was like, did we? And I said, yes, I remember asking for six months of severance.Because they do whatever they can't have to in their mind to protect their male fragility that they've done something wrong my husband was there, but the severance thing was [00:52:00] really really hard The kicker is is they did eventually get rid of the senior pastor They gave him like nine ten months worth of severance His salary.I, his salary was six figures. My salary was in the fifties. Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I felt like I wasn't asking a lot. A lot. I wasn't asking for a lot. Katherine: Right, exactly. Jenai: They gave him my salary and then some through his severance, like later, and I thought. Man, like, I, whatever, this is obviously, like, here is another instance where you have made a value statement that one person was more valuable than another, and even in sending them away, you wanted to send him away with so much care, and you just freaking threw me off.Yeah. It threw me overboard. So, Katherine: yeah. Oh my gosh. I have heard so many stories [00:53:00] like that of just like, they'll be so stingy with the person who blew the whistle. And then when they, you know, get forced to like, get rid of the pastor because it's just, too much collateral to keep him on because so many people are leaving or for whatever reason and and then they just send him off with like a year of severance and like you know continue to pay his insurance and like all this kind of stuff and you're just like guys yeah it is not an equitable system in any way shape or form Jenai: i would say i probably if i had to venture a guess i will never find a civil suit filed against me because I in gathering evidence and in kind of trusting my gut.They didn't know that I was recording things after they let me go and terminated me. They began a quote unquote internal investigation. And if anyone knows, it's not really that much of an investigation where they investigate themselves, [00:54:00] you know, like, come on, man. But. In these internal investigation talks, I recorded everything, and I was kind of triangulating the information with some members.And I was asking them, what are they telling you? Because this is what I was told. And what are they telling you? And thankfully, some of those what they were telling the members, some of that's recorded in member meetings. And so I was like, okay. One way. I think we mentioned before pastors still feel like they are just leaders in general feel like they have power.That's why they keep coming after you. And then 1 way to prevent that is to get your own power back. Once I revealed to them that I had been recording things. and catching them in their lies. Katherine: Yes. Jenai: They realized, Oh, we can't just tell her one thing and tell the members another thing. Cause I remember, I remember them telling me, you know, pastors on [00:55:00] probation, pastors, this, I recorded that meeting without their, their knowledge, because it's one party consent.And then I heard from the member meeting that Pastor went on stage and he said, they've given me time off. Like he wasn't, he wasn't forthright with I'm on probation. They also gave him the power to tell the story himself. Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: Which I thought, don't you know? And they were like, we gave him like an opportunity to own.And I was like, no, you didn't. You gave him an opportunity to save face and Katherine: I Jenai: sent them an email. And I said, this is what you've done. This is what I was told. Here is the screen recording. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but there's an app called Loom, where I, I think they might have disabled this feature.This was early days, 2020, when people were figuring out screen recording and all that stuff. But Loom will record, did record my screen. And because I didn't do it through Zoom, it didn't let the person know that I was [00:56:00] recording the call. Katherine: And so, Jenai: I sent them that video that said, This is what you said. Here it is in the transcript.And they stopped. Like, they just, they realized, Oh my gosh, we have to be more careful with her. Katherine: Mm hmm. And then at Jenai: that point, they, I noticed significantly that they were mincing words with me. Because, Katherine: they knew. Jenai: Well, and because I got my power back, they just couldn't just tell me anything anymore.I was weighing and measuring it against everything else they were telling other people. Katherine: Yeah, yeah. And if you are still happen to be in your situation, your abusive situation, document, document, document, document, document. If you can't record it, you can, you can leave a meeting and you can write your own notes.You can save the emails, as you know, I was saying, save the screenshots. Have your have all of your things that feel so weird to do that. Like you're just like a double agent. But just think of it that [00:57:00] way. Like, like you are a double agent in a hostile regime, just like, like that person. And yeah. and protect yourself and give yourself what you need to survive that.Speaking of survival in the event that you do get sued it is a very traumatizing situation to, like, have to be interacting with this stuff again and to not have agency over when you interact with that stuff. And, and it can be very re traumatizing. Litigation abuse is a real thing, such as. A, you know, woman tries to leave her violently abusive husband, even has a restraining order out.And for that husband to just want, he just wants to keep controlling her and maintain contact with her. We'll just sue her for nothing just to, to maintain the contact. So litigation abuse is a real thing. And that might help to just kind of look at it. That way of like, I'm [00:58:00] being abused in real time and care for yourself.If that were true, surround yourself with people, take a lot of naps be in therapy, if you can and give yourself a lot of tenderness and care in that situation. And you don't have to be this strong, bad ass all the time. Like if it's hard for you and it is a struggle, that's okay. It's okay if that is a struggle for you and you and it impacts you.That's why they're doing it. Like they're trying to impact you and for it to actually impact you and actually be like real time abuse that you're experiencing and for that to have an effect on you, that's okay. And give yourself resources in that situation so that you are actually being supported.when that is happening. One final thought and then I'll let you share final thoughts [00:59:00] too. If you decide that you want to file a civil suit against against a perpetrator or an abuser and you got a lot of evidence and a lot of corroboration and you think you got a good case, there are lawyers that work on contingency who will look at your case and say, I'm going to defend this case for free and I get paid if you get paid.So that is an option to do your research and not legal advice, but I really hope more people will do that. Do that, do that thing and just let them know, Hey, you're going to sue us. We're going to sue you. Monique, any final thoughts or any other things that you want to add to something that we left out or holes to fill?Yeah, Jenai: yeah. I will say if you live in a two party state and you have to get consent before recording, that can still work in your favor too. So after my former leaders found out I was recording, they eventually asked me to partake in a reconciliatory meeting. And I, I know I was like, I [01:00:00] will, I will come to that.And I told them I will come to that on two conditions. I, I had already sat on one side of the table with all six of them before. And I said, I need advocates there for me. Beyond my husband, I, I, I want people there who are for there for us. And the second request was that I record the meeting.If you, I thought, well, it's going, they're going to be much more careful with their words when they record the meeting, but still in that meeting, there were still some tells. Katherine: Yeah. For Jenai: instance, one thing I wrote about in other, I think maybe it's chapter three about apologies. And how I'm sorry, you feel that way is different than I, I'm sorry, I did this to you.Katherine: Yeah. Jenai: And in this rec, like this meeting that they, that they, they said, yes, they let me record it. They still said, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I'm sorry. You feel like you, I would, I had dismissed you and I'm sorry. And like, they still [01:01:00] kind of tell on themselves. So if you live in a two party state and you feel like you can't do these clever one party things.You can still gather good information, even if you ask. And they will still, they show their colors, even if they don't think that they're showing their colors. Like, I really think sometimes, sometimes some people know what they're doing and I think sometimes the self deception is so deep, they just don't know how bonkers it is.Or they're Katherine: super arrogant and they, they really genuinely feel like they can do whatever they want. Jenai: Yeah, yeah. And so there are ways in which you can gather information, even if, like, you don't have a similar one party state situation, like I do. I will also say that when it comes time to providing corroboration, you know, Asking for corroboration, I mentioned, was really hard, but also going back through the evidence, some of my evidence was audio or video recording, and [01:02:00] I had to go back and listen to Jenai: Or watch the video and provide a timestamp.I had to send them the audio or video link and give them a timestamp, and I, that was very difficult. Very hard on me. I did it because I needed to, but if that sounds like something you don't want to do try to find you'll, you'll, if you want to write it the way that you have it and not say, I remember this, you want to actually use that.Just be gentle with yourself. That is a really hard thing. I think I needed to not look at the book for a while after providing evidence because that was listening to those voices and seeing those faces again. It was really hard. And so I just wanted, I didn't want to not say that because people think, Oh, I have all this evidence going back and looking at the evidence can be really, really hard on you.Yeah. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. And it's so important to just have our, our agency and interact with the [01:03:00] material in our own way in our own time. And when you have something like a book deadline, You don't always have that that capacity to just, yeah. You know, do it on your own time and just when you, when you feel good enough for it.And and a and a civil suit similar is there's deadlines, there's timelines, and you can't just like, oh, I just wanna block out this day and then the next day I'm gonna go get a massage. Like, you don't always have that agency. And just that, just that lack of control within that. Contacts can also feel retraumatizing.And so since we probably discouraged everybody listening to from going public with their stories, what let's remind folks again, like why it's sometimes important to go public with our stories. Jenai: I think it was important to me personally to keep my integrity. I did everything I could do to stop someone else from getting hurt.I, I stood up, I did exactly what my [01:04:00] faith had encouraged me to do. I did exactly the thing I, I believe. And I write this in the book sharing your story and telling your story and owning your story is a way to be like what I think the prophets of the old Testament did. The prophets, they didn't tell fortunes.They were calling people in power to account. I now realize the weight of that, like, oh my gosh, like that is, I did exactly, I spoke up and I don't, I know that not everyone will speak up, not everyone, you know, I had power, I had gathered all this evidence, I had the power to speak up because I had kind of things that bolstered me, not everyone has that, and I, I don't want anyone to feel shame If they feel like they can't tell their story because they don't have that same kind of support or evidence but keep telling your story to yourself so that you're validating yourself.If, if no one else will affirm you, there is still so much power in [01:05:00] affirming your own truth, your own story. No one can take that away from you, but they will do their damnedest to take it away from you. I will also say that it is. mentally grueling. It is I just want people to take care of themselves.Above all, just, just to, if you do and do this work and you know you're going to tell your story give yourself a lot of space and say no to other things that Yeah. Other expectations, other, you know, there are other friends who I'm promoting this book and it's a very vulnerable book. There are other friends who are also writers who also want me to write endorsements or who also in this particular time want me to do something for them and support them.And as much as I love them, I have had to say no to a lot of them as I promote this book or do this work because I'm trying to do it well and with capacity. And because the story is so vulnerable, it takes a lot out of me. So say like, just be [01:06:00] understanding that you have to say no to a lot of people that you love and like, that's okay.Yeah, the people who love you who hear no from you will still like acknowledge that this is okay. Katherine: Absolutely. Jenai: If they take offense to that, then maybe they aren't as big a support as you thought they were and just redraw the boundaries of that relationship, but make a lot of space for you and doing this work.Katherine: Absolutely. And the reality that it's really important to tell our story, to tell our version of the story, to reclaim our narrative, to reclaim our power post an abusive situation, but there are many ways to do that. And telling a story publicly does not have to be the only or only way. Or even an option like we it's important to tell those stories 100 percent highly encouraged finding safe places where you can tell your story.You don't have to go public with it. [01:07:00] Absolutely. And, and. There are things you can do if you decide that that's important to you to make sure that you are taking care of yourself and protecting yourself. Listen to this episode for that. As we wrap up, how can people find you, find your book, interact with you, and yeah, what are the easiest places for people to get in touch with you?Jenai: I am everywhere on the internet at Janiyah Amin. And I'm usually hanging out on Instagram, not really on Twitter or X or whatever it is anymore. It's getting more vitriolic over there. I also, what prompted this conversation was not only that I'm promoting a book, but I also wrote about this experience on Substack.And if you want, Catherine, I can send you the link and you can include that in any show notes on the website, but also what I've considered doing and wha

Mattie Jo Cowsert was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate. When marriage equality passed in 2015, Mattie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first publicly released blog post entitled: God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog, God, Sex, and Rich People. Before terms like “deconstruction”, “purity culture” or “Exvangelical'' became hashtags viewed by billions, God, Sex, and Rich People exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female Exvangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the 1%, and trying to have good sex without hating herself in the city that never sleeps (and never stops sleeping around).Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024. Looking for a trauma-trained mental health professional to work with? www.traumaresolutionandrecovery.com/meet-our-practitionersSign up for Tears of Eden's newsletter to receive updates on the release of Katherine Spearing's upcoming book: www.tearsofeden.org/aboutUncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you're enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus. You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/supportTo get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.comFollow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast Transcript is Unedited for Typos and Misspellings[00:00:00] I'm Katherine Spearing, and this is Uncertain. Uncertain is the affiliate podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse from the evangelical community. So I don't think I've had the chance to officially announce, But in April of this year, I partnered with Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery to work as a practitioner for them. Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery is a online agency that works with survivors of spiritual abuse, religious trauma, purity culture, folks who are deconstructing, All of the things, and it's 100 percent online, so you can meet with a practitioner online.So many folks are addressing the religious trauma that came from evangelicalism, from working in the church, and they're looking for good mental health professionals that understand this. I know that with most of the clients that I work with, they [00:01:00] have already worked with therapists before in the past.But one of the main things that they struggled with in their therapy relationship was that the therapist didn't understand the nuances and the complexities of the subculture of evangelicalism. So if you are looking for a mental health practitioner to help you navigate the complex and confusing and very painful journey of recovering from religious trauma and the trauma from spiritual abuse, I encourage you to check them out. I'm a practitioner there. I see clients one on one. I currently have a client.Few openings for new clients and there are also several other practitioners that have openings for clients as well. So that is an option available to you. Another thing that I haven't announced yet on the podcast is that In April, also in April of this year, I signed a book contract. I am working with Lake Drive Books as my publisher for this book.[00:02:00] And what do you know? The book is about spiritual abuse. It will contain a A lot of my journey, but my journey also entails working with clients, working with survivors through Tears of Eden, there are some genuine quotes that are taken straight from some of the podcast episodes here. So you'll be in familiar territory.One of the gaps in the current literature around spiritual abuse that my book is going to hopefully fill is addressing the reality that The theology and evangelicalism and in the modern day church actually has a massive impact on the rampant abuse that we are now seeing in the church.I haven't seen a lot of that connection made in the current literature that's out there. Our previous guest from last week, Krista Brown, she made that connection really well. Like this theology actually leads to the abuse. So Other than that, I just really haven't seen that much happening. So that's one [00:03:00] of the things that's going to be showing up in this book as well. That's just a little bit of a sneak peek. We'll probably do some sort of launch event through Tears of Eden when it comes out in 2025. The exact date is still to be decided, but subscribe to Tears of Eden's newsletter so that you can get updates on that book when it's coming out and all of the deets around that. The guest today is Maddie Jo Kausert. Maddie Jo was a pastor's kid and proud purity ring wearer, before she moved to New York City and experienced an unexpected worldview and identity implosion, thanks to Tinder and her Jewish roommate.When marriage equality passed in 2015, Maddie Jo decided to share how the queer community was one of the catalysts for questioning everything she'd been taught about this Jesus guy in her first public release blog post entitled, God and the Gays. This was the start of her popular blog.God, sex, and rich people. Before terms like deconstruction, purity culture, or [00:04:00] evangelical became hashtags viewed by billions, God, sex, and rich people exposed the sometimes painful, sometimes hilarious realities of a young female evangelical navigating the diversity of the Big Apple, working for the one percent, And trying to have good sex without hating herself in a city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around.Her book by the same name releases on September 10th, 2024.Maddie is hilarious and super fun, so I'm very much looking forward to reading her book when it releases. Here is my interview with Maddie Jo Kausert. Katherine: Well, welcome, Glenda, to have you here. I love the title of your book. Why don't you tell us the title of your book? Mattie: I Katherine: will. Mattie: Yes. God's Sex and Rich People, a Recovering Evangelical Testimony. Katherine: Fantastic. And you are coming from New York, where you work as an actor?Mattie: Mm hmm. Katherine: Actor. Mattie: And now [00:05:00] author. Now author. Actor, writer, shameless overshare is what I say. Or sometimes I say actor, writer, babysitter for billionaires. It kind of depends on my crowd. Katherine: Are you still a babysitter for billionaires? Mattie: I am. I am a babysitter. You know, something of the, of the unexpected twists and turns my life has taken.I did not foresee my being like solely raised to be a mom and a wife to be so lucrative. Incredibly lucrative in New York City. There are lots of, of, and I'm not saying this is true of my family, of the family I work for, but there are lots of families in New York that actually don't want to parent their kids.So I'm great. Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. I'm Mattie: good at it. Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. I had a life where I nannied. I enjoyed it. I like, Mm-Hmm, . I really enjoyed it. And there are times where I consider going back to it because . Mattie: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Let me know. I know someone looking for a nanny in [00:06:00] St. Louis.We can get, we can follow up after. Katherine: All right. Let's do it. But yeah. And I had six younger siblings. Mm-Hmm. . And so like, it was like. Super like, I was like, this doesn't work like this. Mattie: Exactly. This is just like my life. Katherine: This is life for me. Yeah. And now I get paid for it.I like this. Yeah. Okay, cool. So, all right. I'm like trying to like in my head, then boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Okay. So maybe let's start with your, just like your journey, cause you, you're from Branson, Missouri, and you somehow ended up in New York acting and working with rich people. So tell me How you got from point A to point B.And then if you want to touch on some of the things like the journey, the deconstruction stuff that you you are writing about on your blog and on in your book I would love to hear all of those things and then we can just kind of see where it goes. We're going to have, [00:07:00] we're going to have a great Mattie: time.Great. Yeah. And like I kill, I am a loquacious individual. So if you ever need to stop me and say like, you know, just. Interrupt me whenever. So I was born a preacher's kid which if you were a preacher's kid in the 90s, I mean, there are, there are, You know, different varieties of what that could mean. But my variety was of the, the general Baptist convention, which is not, it is an actual like denomination.It's different from first or second Baptist or Southern Baptist, but like it's, it's generally Baptist, right? I think the only thing that's different, it doesn't matter. There's some theology things, right? And they made their own church from the other Baptists. And. My, I say that, I say this in the book, my roots in evangelicalism are as deep as my roots in America.My great grandfather was a Baptist pastor. My grandfather on that side was a Baptist pastor. On my dad's [00:08:00] side, my grandfather was a Baptist pastor and then my dad became a Baptist pastor. So it's just, it's, this shit's literally in my blood. We were Baptist in terms of, like, the traditionally Baptist, but then we, by junior high, we kind of crossed over into the non denominational world, which was very exciting for people coming from a denomination where there was no dancing Katherine: and Mattie: lustful hip moving. And now we got, like, You know, a full band and cool, like, spinny lights and a sick sound system.It was Katherine: hip Christianity. Mattie: Yes, absolutely. So then I, I and like, I will mention this, the church that my dad was the pastor at before we switched over to the non denom world is was Stuart, our Alan Clark's church. I don't know if you remember him. He's the one that kind of went viral. For saying that, like, basically having a Trump rally at a church for saying, like, if on a Mother's Day service, like, if you [00:09:00] women are, like, too fat, and your husband's not gonna be attracted to you, and he cheats on you, like, all the things we sort of subtly heard in church growing Katherine: up.I've heard, I've heard these, I've heard this before, I wouldn't have connected the name, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mattie: Super, super great. And he, like, did my He did my grandpa's funeral, like, yeah, so but my, he was not there, obviously, when my dad was the pastor there, but I lived at the parsonage of that church, right?So then for a while, my dad got, like, a normal person job while he was seeking out, you know, different pastoral opportunities, and we, in the meantime, we started going to this non denominational church, and that was really, like, my home church, and then my dad got on staff at that church as the community pastor.So even though he wasn't like at the pulpit, he was still like a big part of it. And that was like my, my high school experience was, being at church so much, I was there like so much and it was my whole social life. And to be honest, I think something I don't really highlight enough is I really loved that experience.Like I loved that I was not [00:10:00] drinking and I wasn't having sex in high school. I got to really enjoy being a kid. And I think a lot of high school. trying not to be the age they are. And I really, I really feel like I got that in high school. And then also like I wasn't really dating and because of like purity rings and everything.So I didn't have the same amount of boy drama that I feel like a lot of girls are distracted from. And then because at church we learned a lot about like, Cultivating deep, meaningful relationships with people. I feel like I had a really strong friend group. So lots of great things came of my, my time at church, right?And then, but along with it, you know, was a lot of really bad shit. And I went to college and I I did go to school for theater. So sort of as a natural outcome of that, I started questioning some of what I was, I had learned in church around gay people going to hell and everything. There's a chapter in my book, it's all caps.Everyone is going to hell. Because like, I had gay [00:11:00] friends and I was like, oh no, all my friends are gonna burn. And And so that was sort of the beginning of me really questioning some of this stuff, but I was still very much in it like I was in a a missions focused group in mission and fellowship focused group throughout college and I had a boyfriend who I totally thought I was going to marry.We did not have sex. We were saving ourselves. That was a bit of a, like, Capulet Montague tale because he was Catholic and my family was Baptist and, you know, the Catholics aren't real Christians. So that was some fun drama, but in, in dating him, I learned a lot about Catholicism and a lot about the roots of Christianity.Whatever. And I really feel like I, I developed a love for liturgy that I didn't get in my non denominational background. So in some ways, I feel like it deepened my spirituality being with him, and because I thought we were going to get married there, There's some stuff I could go back to, but I'll [00:12:00] say this and then go back, I guess.Because I thought we were going to get married, I was okay with like saving myself. Cause I was like, Oh, but we'll still get married by like 22. And then I can have sex. And then we ended up breaking up my, my later in my junior year of college. And I was like, Well I guess that option.Yeah. And also alongside it, all of I, this is part of like the, the rich people part of my story. When I was 14, I decided I was going to go to summer camp. We didn't really have you didn't really have summer camp that wasn't church camp where I was and you didn't, I didn't really have any access to theater training in Branson.I know shocking because of all of the live music, but live entertainment, but it was not the kind of theater I was trying to do. Please. I was Broadway bound, you know? And so my parents were like, well, why don't we, I was going through a pretty rough bout of anorexia and I think it was kind of my parents, like effort of like getting my sparkle back.[00:13:00] You know, they knew I loved theater and whatever. So then I just like Googled this is all in the book. So you can like read it more in depth there. I Googled and I found the top performing arts camp in the country. And I decided, okay, I'll go there. And then I looked at the price tag and I was like, holy shit, people pay this much for camp.And so then I raised the money. I was like, I was like, all right, I'm going to do this. And I like raised the money to go to camp and I ended up doing it. And then upon arriving at camp, I was like, oh. This is why this camp is so expensive. It's just for rich kids. And like, I was this little me from rural Missouri and I had like done a car wash in the Walmart parking lot to be there, you know?And so that was a really interesting culture shock and experience. And then, but it was actually I feel like my, Without having words for it, which is actually a really beautiful thing about like being young. Feel like I really had my first real [00:14:00] connection with the divine at being like in a play at camp.Yeah. Katherine: And, you know, I love that so much. I love that so much. I wonder so much more about that, but yes, continue. Yes. Mattie: So then again, sort of without words, like I never, I was never like, Okay, like I never made like a conscious choice that I was gonna be an actor. I just knew I was gonna be an actor. Yeah. I was like, well, this is what I'm designed to do.I clearly feel the most at home and joyful when I'm doing it. I was really good at it. I was a better actor when I was 14 probably than like college because I was just pure, you know? And and yeah, I was like, And that's when I, yeah, I felt the most connected to God was on, was being in that play. And so then from there on out, I was like, okay, I'm going to go to college for theater and I'm going to, then I'm going to move to New York city.And I did, I, I did those things. But when I was in college, I felt, and I would like visit New [00:15:00] York every year. during spring break and I would feel this pool of like my sense of adventure and my like wanting to perform and having this love for culture and diversity and really being at not, I don't want to say at war, but in conflict with what I was supposed to do as a woman of God, which was like get married. have kids, all of that, right? And I just, I would always wonder, like, how am I going to make these two worlds happen? You know, like Katherine: identity on who you are and what you love. And you're so aware that it doesn't fit. In this system that told you you were supposed to be this thing and how just, oh, yeah, just like the, the confusion that probably resulted from that.And tell me more about that unpack. Yeah, Mattie: so I felt it was just this [00:16:00] conflict of. Of knowing, you know, like part of the brilliant work of the evangelical church and I would argue like, you know, religious systems in general is the their ability to detach individuals from themselves. So I call it like.Self severance and the work of deconstruction is actually integration is like actually getting to know and not vilify your feelings your thoughts your opinions because what are we told like if it's not of the lord it's it's of the flesh right like everything is just a dichotomy of like good and evil and so yeah i again i didn't have words for it but i was like why do i feel more connected to myself And more joyful in New York City with all of these like theater weirdos than at church singing songs, you know, and, or like not even at church singing songs, cause I did like to sing.So I did like that, but I, but more, you know, following the rules, [00:17:00] doing the purity culture thing, showing up in a particular way, not going out and drinking and all of this stuff. And I was like, I just, that just isn't me. Like I'm. I'm like pretty horny and boy crazy and I don't know why that has to make me like less of a Christian But that was that was the competing narrative.Those were the competing narratives, right? It's like to give up my virginity to give up getting married therefore getting married young, right? To give up these things that were so upheld in the evangelical church would mean that I was not living in alignment with God, and I was not living in alignment with my higher calling.And another thing that the evangelical church does so masterfully is they really they really, like, pedestalize Yes. And so Katherine: the Mattie: heart or Katherine: something. Sacrifice. this identity would have been more holy. Mattie: Exactly. Exactly. So luckily [00:18:00] after I went on a mission trip to Indonesia with my missions group where basically the whole time they were just telling us like, look, if you're not willing to like pick up your cross and follow me to Indonesia to be a full time missionary, you don't love Jesus enough.If you are not willing to be a modern day martyr for the Lord. You're not a Christian. Like you just, like your faith isn't actually the most important thing to you. And then making you feel such shame for that. And I came back from that trip and I was like, okay. All right. So first things first, I guess I'll break up with my boyfriend.Cause now I have to move to Indonesia and I don't, I know he doesn't want to do that. And then I'm going to, I guess, finish out my musical theater degree, but I'll, I'll move to. another country in the 1040 window instead of moving to New York City. And I talked to my dad about it and he was like, that is such a pile of crap.Luckily, I say this in the book, I have a, [00:19:00] a father who is like, you know, more like Oprah than he is like, you know Baptist pastor and he was just like to go against what you were designed to do would be going against god What? Yeah, and he was like you Mm hmm. I know i'm really grateful for my parents, which is another thing we can talk about is they're like very like, level headed intellectuals.Well, my dad for sure. My mom is like, very like common sense. So she, for her, it just doesn't compute. She's like, how could you follow Donald Trump and follow Jesus? Those two things are not the same at all. So there, I'm lucky in that regard, for sure. But anyway, so, so Yeah, that was just the the conflict, but I guess because I was not I was only surrounded by people who thought differently than the than the herd, I guess you would say for like one week out of the year It was like one week out of the year.I would go to new york city and I would get a different dose of like this whole vast world [00:20:00] that wasn't my own. But then you, I would go back to Missouri and all those questions that would be festering and everything, they would just get stifled because all I'd have is everybody else in my ear saying something different.And it wasn't until my boyfriend and I like fully broke up and I realized, okay, I am now for sure, for sure. Moving to New York city. Katherine: What was the boyfriend? The Catholic one. Mattie: Yeah, yeah I am for sure for sure moving to New York City And the logistics of that with, like, marriage, I don't know, man.And then, that was really, I would say, like, that was the catalyst for the rest of my undoing. Because now, I really knew I was going to New York. And so, you know, it's like, they say, I had people say to me, well, like, you know, don't let those liberals convert you. So, help. And then I like went, I'm like, well, they did it.They did their, their [00:21:00] wizardry, I guess. But yeah, then once I got to New York and I just say like, just by living there and I can go a little bit more into that if you want me to, but just by living there, I was just sort of constantly accosted by all the ways that. My, the faith that I had been presented that had these like rules really only worked in a very specific culture outside of that culture.They do not work. So I, so then I'm thinking like, but this is the God who created like, Like, you know, like, the, the freaking, like, geysers, and, and like fuzzy caterpillars, and then like, the whole galaxy, and he can't find it in his galacting making heart to love gay people?Like, it just was, I, and the more I was with, you know, These people who were different. I was like, it's just not computing. But you know, honestly, when I moved to New York, I did not yes, the questions were happening and they were definitely like I guess percolating is the right word for it. [00:22:00] But I, I definitely had no intention of like losing my identity as a Christian.I thought, you know, I thought, you know what, I'll work through this like purity culture thing, I'll figure that out first, and the gay people thing and whatever. But then, once I started dissecting scripture, and I started to do a really big deep dive in like history. textual critic, textual criticism, any sort of like breaking down of, of the Bible outside of like the case for Christ, you know, anything that didn't have like a very strict Christian agenda, things that were just scholastic.Like I was literally reading textbooks from like courses at Columbia, you know I was like,don't even think I'm a Christian because if, if I have to believe that Jesus. is the messiah to and that he came here to die for our sins and the resurrection and all of that if i have to believe all of that to be a [00:23:00] christian Katherine: yeah Mattie: i don't think i do Katherine: yeah Mattie: and it was just sort of like to to have continued to buy into it experiencing everything that I was experiencing, learning everything I was learning would have been the ultimate, like, self negligence.Yeah. And I had come too far in my journey of authenticity to do that. Yeah. And like, to be honest, I feel like that was kind of my, like, That was my moment where I was like, I will never turn on myself. Because if I can give up this. Yeah. Which is like everything about me. So now everything's going to unravel now.After this. And it did. And it was not pretty. Then I think I'm gonna always. Be able to know myself and come back to myself. I didn't know that consciously at the time obviously but Which again is like then you're fighting like the youth pastor [00:24:00] jiminy cricket in your head That's like but you're not good.You can't trust yourself. You are sinful, you know, like you can't All of those things. So everything, I just say like deconstructing is just like a total mindfuck. I at least had the privilege of being geographically removed from it, but most people who are deconstructing, like you expressed earlier, it's like they're still very much in it.So I imagine that has to be a lot harder. Like I was in a place where, I use this joke, like if you, if I told people in my circles that I had just gone to a worship service, they'd be like, Oh. An orgy? Like, what does that mean? You know, the language just isn't the same. Katherine: Exactly, and you realize that once you get out of it.It's like, oh, that is like such this insider cellular conversation. And when you start to use those words, and you're like, oh, this sounds so weird. Yes. Sounds weird because it is weird. Yeah. Yeah, because Mattie: it is weird exactly and like the more people that you meet that don't grow up in it. I'm like, that's a really [00:25:00] good like if you really want to like quickly divvy up like what is total bullshit and what is like Okay of what we learned in church, just tell all of the pillars of your youth group lessons to someone who didn't grow up in it and you will figure it out very quickly.Watch their face. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you have any questions about that. But yeah, that's how I got from there to here. Katherine: This is a dynamic that I was I would love to discuss with you. So I escaped a cult, like shiny, happy people cult when I was in my mid twenties, and I immediately moved to a different country.And then after that, I went to seminary and then I lived in, I lived in DC and I lived in LA. And I lived in St. Louis for grad school and it, and I can see very starkly the role that [00:26:00] getting out and getting in geographically getting into a different space and being around different people. It just accelerated everything and, so tell me about the role that that played in your life of just like being in the big city and like getting out Mattie: Yeah, I do talk about that a lot, about like, geographical privilege. Because I was not going to lose my entire community if I said I don't think gay people are going to hell. Some people, especially if they're married and they have kids, and like, If they admit that, some of them it's like tied to their income, like I've talked to people who are in the praise band and they are a paid position because it's a mega church, right?Like, well, I shouldn't assume, obviously, like, apparently Hillsong wasn't really paying its musicians. But anyway but this is like, You know, that's a big thing. And so absolutely. [00:27:00] And so I do realize that I had that I was building a new community. However, While I wasn't afraid of like losing my community, I was really afraid of judgment from people back home But really it's because I was judging myself like if I can go back and really look at the fears I had during like what I call my my rubble years, which is like I had knocked down a whole bunch of shit But I had no idea how to rebuild it yet.So I was just kind of like Existing in the atomic wasteland of my previous belief system I think a lot of it was anything I was putting on other people was just stuff that I was fearful of, but reinforced by people saying certain things to me, you know,, like, for example, I went back for a birth or a birthday party.a wedding of my best friend. And the next morning I was like, hey, I have to tell you something. And she goes, Oh my God, did you make that? Did you make out with my brother? And I was like, [00:28:00] no, you know, it was stuff like that. Or like, I went back for, I was like, Katherine: yeah, Mattie: exactly.It's terrible. Although to her credit, I was going to tell her that me and one of our dearest best friends shared mail. I think that detail is probably important just for this context. That we had shared a really sweet goodnight kiss.Like that's what I was gonna tell her so it did have to do with a boy But no, I didn't make out with your brother. And then another time I remember After I had started the blog Going home for like a bridal shower, and we were all We were all going out for, like, drinks, whatever, afterwards and some of the guys, like, drunkenly, like, kind of cornered me, and they were all like, so you think you can tell my, you know, future wife it's okay to do other positions than missionary?Stuff like that. Yeah. Right? It [00:29:00] was this, it was this kind of, or like, I remember one time I went home and for a 10 year reunion and one of my classmates who I'd like been in kindergarten with, he grabbed my butt during a group photo. And I turned around and I looked at him and I was like, what was that?And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, don't me to me. And he was like, we know what you write on the internet, Maddie Jo. Oh my god. So it was things like that, that like, you know, these assumptions that just because I was openly talking about sex, that that meant I was sexualized. Yes. Right? Right. And things like that.I was really, that happened pretty frequently. I think that's a Katherine: genuine fear for a lot of women. Who are having these journeys, and I will include myself in that, of like, but I'm not going to talk about it publicly because of, it'll put me in danger to some extent of [00:30:00] like, you become this target, like, you're not allowed to just be sexually free without being a ho.Like, you're not allowed to have sex without being a ho. Like, it's like one or the other. Same double standard rules that have always existed. They just take different forms. Right. Mattie: Is, you're absolutely right. The danger component of it is very true. And then You know, and it happened in New York too, but I started to use it as kind of a sifter.Like if I told guys about my blog and their immediate thought was like, oh, she's DTF. I was like, yeah, you're not it. Like you have, you have shrunken me to a 2D vagina, you know, like, And Katherine: that is a, a perk of that authenticity Mattie: is, Katherine: and I mean, and that's one of the reasons why people won't do it, cause it's like, well guys won't like me.That is actually true. It Mattie: is actually true. You can, but you can totally see like okay, they're either going to be more interested because they think you're just [00:31:00] ready to have sex with anything. Or they're not going to be interested because they think you're ready to have sex with anything, right? Like air quotes.Or the third option is they're like, oh, that's really cool. Can you tell me more about your Tell me more about it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the only okay response. So what you're doing is you're sifting through what I call the misogynist daywalkers, right? Like these are the ones you don't want. And that lets you know it very quickly.So yeah, to the geographical thing, like I did experience some of that, but the, the removal of it and, oh, here's another thing. I was really afraid my parents weren't going to love me anymore. Like, I know that sounds insane. It doesn't sound insane. Cause I think a lot of people feel that way, but like, I was afraid if I told my parents, like, I, I don't, cause I had, I had realized that so much of like their.Not affirmation, but like approval of me or what I thought anyway, was around my behavior of being the purity princess of [00:32:00] following the rules of being a, a, a Christ like, you know, young woman. And like, what if I wasn't a zealot for any of that anymore? And I was, I was suddenly very zealous for. The opposite of that.I was really afraid my parents were going to disown me. They didn't because luckily they were going through something similar because some iffy stuff was going on at our church that you know, they were like, dude, why are church people like this? You know? So I was calling out a lot of the hypocrisy publicly, but they were experiencing it personally.And so that was again, very lucky, but yeah, being removed from it gave me, I always say like, The greatest gift that New York City gave me was anonymity. Because no one here gave a fuck who I was fucking, when I was fucking, or if I said the word fucking, right? No one was like tone policing me. And I got to just, you know, they say you find out who you really are [00:33:00] when no one's watching.Yeah, absolutely. And what a gift. Yeah, you know to just be Just being able to make decisions without The wrath of the spiritual side eye you're going to get the second you go in for a coffee Katherine: Yeah, Mattie: you know like that was great so I really do and just the ability to be around people from all different walks of life I mean my first apartment in new york city.This is part of the rich people part. I'm miraculously ended up in a very You specific living situation where I lived in like the penthouse apartment of this fancy building you know, leaning lady, like Upper West Side. And it was four of us and one of the guys who lived there, his family used to own the entire building.So that's how he had this apartment. And that I could live there for so inexpensively. But anyways, he was born and raised in New York City, went to like the best boy's school in the country. Jewish, right? And then the other girl that was living with us was born and raised [00:34:00] between New York and India.I'm actually not sure where in India, I should have probably asked. And her family had like tea, a tea business in India, so they were very wealthy, right? And so that's why she was going back and forth between New York and India. And she went to like Harvard Law and Oxford for undergrad. She was Brilliant.And then the other girl was from Sweden and she was an economist and she was an atheist and like very feminist and you know, and I was like, we had more diversity in my apartment than all of Missouri, you know, so getting to hear their perspectives on things, specifically my roommate who owned the apartment was hysterical because he would call me out on things and, you know, like when I would be having these like equally yoked panic attacks, you know, he'd like kind of call me out on like, It's kind of weird.You're so concerned about, like, whether or not he's Mormon. Like, did he tell you he was Mormon? You know, like [00:35:00] so it was, yeah. And, and so that really, where if, if your whole world is just every other weekend, somebody else is getting engaged and you're going to their, like, dry wedding, like, yeah, obviously it's not a very expansive place to explore.Katherine: Yeah. Absolutely. You may already know this, but the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support. You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening.And now back to the show. Katherine: And I think for folks, because a lot of folks, especially like the demographic that I work with, not [00:36:00] a lot, but a percentage of folks when they, a lot of them were on staff in churches and experienced abuse and had to leave these churches and had to leave their livelihoods. And on often, it leads to a geographic.Change. Mattie: Yeah. Katherine: It can be so terrifying and so anxiety inducing. And so I think it's really helpful to hear this very expansive positive side of that, which was also what I experienced too. It's very traumatic to move. Mattie: It's Katherine: very traumatic to be transplanted into a world that is not familiar. That is 100 percent true.But the possibilities for what we can encounter. In these new spaces not a reason for difficult things that we go through. I never, I never want to justify the difficult things or prescribe, Oh, the Lord knew what he was doing. Right, right. But I think it can be just [00:37:00] this beautiful world that it can open for us if we kind of just roll with it.I'm just like, what happens? Mattie: Definitely. Definitely. I mean, like, I'm pretty sure Linda K. Klein even talks about that in her book, Pure, about how, like, even once she was at Sarah Lawrence, I think she, like, took a trip to Australia or something, and that was when it, like, really solidified for her, like, just being away.She was like, yeah, this is just, yeah. Katherine: Yeah, I highly recommend if that is accessible to people, and it's not for everyone, but to The country, get out of your space. Even in a healing season of just like getting out of your space can be so helpful to just not be surrounded by all of these things that are reminding you and, and as you experienced, like just having these things suppressed, like questions that you were having constantly suppressed and you weren't, you weren't in a space where you could ask those questions [00:38:00] and how just like getting out of the space, allowed opportunities.So that's just a suggestion for the audience. Yeah. Mattie: Well, and because I will say this, like, because in evangelical circles, there's such a culture of like accountability. I say with air quotes is like, I know from like watching my older sister kind of go through her own process of deconstruction and my book is actually dedicated to her.I mean like everybody and everybody's business. You know, like you cannot do a damn thing and then and on top of that, like if you are trying to make the decision, you know, like this actually feels really toxic. I'm not going to go to small group anymore. The way they come at you with like every and if you are not yet in a place where you know everything they're saying is bullshit because you have not yet experienced it.experience to the other side of deconstruction, where you really are like more free and you're happier and all of that, then like them coming at you with like, this is just you not wanting to feel convicted. [00:39:00] And this is you like stepping out of accountability in the Lord. This is, you know, like all of those, like, you're going to be like, Oh yeah, you're probably right.Like, you know, it's like, it's impossible. And that's why you have to separate yourself because it's honestly just like really it's manipulation and, and you need new friends and it's like really hard to make new friends when you're in the same place too. I think that's tough too. Katherine: Yeah. And that for forced vulnerability, which is very invasive and very bashing.And I think that that's another beautiful thing on the other side as well of like, we were, we were so responsible for like, you felt like responsible for your gay friends going to hell and, you know, like, and now it's like, Oh, I don't have to be responsible. I don't have to worry about what your belief system is and whether or not you're going to hell.I don't, I don't have to do that. Right. Which is great. Mattie: Right. Katherine: We have a wonderful time together [00:40:00] and I go home and sleep well. Mattie: And you don't have to treat your friends like a social, like like tally mark, right? Like, oh, did I share the bridge analogy with them? If I didn't. I probably don't love them, you know?Like, no, actually, not treating them like an experiment is probably more indicative of your love for them. I remember feeling that in my missions group, too. It's like, Jesus Christ, they'd come at me, I talk about this in my book so people can read more about it there, but they'd come at me with like, How many people did you share the gospel with this week?And I'm like, how many orgasms did you have this week? Probably that many, like, leave me alone. God damn. Katherine: And I would just be so mean. Mattie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I will say something I went through in my deconstruction to your point of like, these people are not, Like my problem again, one of the like mind fucks is that sorry, I should have asked if I can cuss.I clearly Katherine: can. I need to put that as a note in [00:41:00] the, in, in the calendar thing, because people ask me if it's okay. And I'm totally okay with it, but I was like, I should just Mattie: sorry. Cause I definitely have a potty mouth. But one thing that I really struggled with is, you know, the whole narrative around your behavior.Is or isn't leading people to Christ. So like when I was going through again, what I call like my rubble years, and I was like, always afraid that like, I couldn't just sin and peace, right? Like internally, every time I like had sex with a guy, I was like, Oh no, if anyone who used to know me as a Christian finds out I'm having sex outside of marriage, Then, what if they think it's okay for them to have sex outside of marriage and then they stop being a Christian and then I'm responsible for them going to hell.I don't really care what they do, I just want to do me. And I just like, couldn't. You know, like, just living my life all the time, I was like, afraid there was like, someone from my past lurking around the corner, like, [00:42:00] ready to not be a Christian too, just like me, even though I didn't know I wasn't a Christian for like, a long time, I didn't admit that to myself.But, yeah, I just remember feeling like, crap, so not only am I afraid I'm going to hell, I'm afraid anyone who is witnessing my behavior is also going to hell because of me. Katherine: That's a lot of pressure. It is! A lot of pressure, and it is unnecessary pressure. Yes. It's so much better. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash support. Katherine: In the time that we have left, I would love [00:43:00] to discuss so you said that you had this divine experience in a play.What role has art played in that? In your journey? Mattie: Oh, I love that question. Oh my gosh. It's played the, it's played such a big role. I, you know, little like, theater role double entendre. Yeah. I, when I first came to New York, I was,I was going to school. Well, okay. Sorry. Backtrack. . I feel like the biggest role that it has played in my life and particularly my spiritual life is that when you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, your life will always be great.Yeah. Like that doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard times. Like I was taken, I was in a movie right now that has 100 percent on Rotten Tomatoes and is number two in the country. My three scenes. Cut. [00:44:00] I am not in the movie. Like, it's not, it's a, like, it's not that it's not, you know, devastating at times and everything, but you know, I didn't know what I was doing when it came to pursuing theater professionally.I didn't know anything like there's a whole thing you're supposed to do if you're going to school for theater and do all the auditions and whatever. I didn't know any of that. All I knew is that I really liked to act. I was okay at singing. And if someone took some time, I could probably figure out dance.And so I just auditioned for two schools. I got into one for their BFA programs. So I just went to the one that I got into. And then even once I left that program, like I just kept, I started to do musical theater professionally or pursue it professionally in New York city. And even after four years, again, getting connected to myself and my, My feelings and everything.I just came to this point where I was like, this is [00:45:00] so hard. And because I'm Midwestern, I don't know if it's hard because it's supposed to be, like, everything takes hard work, or if it's hard because this just isn't the right path for me. And I would think about camp and I would try to think about the times where I really felt connected and I was like I'm not connected when I sing or when I dance.I am so in my head about hitting the notes and hitting the choreography. I can't even think about acting, which is the part I actually enjoy. Yeah. So I decided, you know what? I'm not going to pursue musical theater anymore for like a hot second and just try to act. For a year, I'm going to plant myself in New York City and I'm just going to pursue acting jobs and like see how it goes.And the pressure, like I was, I was, so much more successful at auditioning. I was booking like crazy. [00:46:00] I was having, I had far more success in that one year of pursuing, but of pursuing acting work than I had been in four years of musical theater. And yeah, I've just continued. So now I just do like on camera acting and like plays when they come up, but.And then same with writing. Like, I've always been a writer. I just never wrote publicly. And so when I started releasing my blogs in 2015, it wasn't because I thought I was a writer. I just did something that I found really, like, it was so enjoyable. And not always, right? Because I, I think Glennon Doyle has this, this quote that's like, I don't like writing.I like having written. You know, it's like the putting it together is like, Oh, sometimes it's really hard, but I really enjoyed the process of like, piecing together a story in a way that was engaging. And like, I just really, really loved it. And so I've always [00:47:00] followed those, that those impulses, like these sort of, I remember I had this moment, you know, it's dating this guy and he was like rich, whatever he was in finance.And he sort of had this like, promise of, a less hard life for me. Cause he would take care of the bills and da da da da da da. And so I was like, man, it would be nice to not be juggling like acting and 50 different babysitting jobs and just to live in like a shitty apartment. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and Oh, and there was also this promise of like going back to Germany.Not promise, but potential going back to Germany. Cause that's where he was from, whatever. So I was talking to this mentor of mine of like, okay, should I just like, you know, get a normal job and sort of like go on this track of like building a life with him and you know, going that way and she was like, well, why, why do you act Maddie Joe?Like, why do you want to act? And I just like looked at her and I said two things and I didn't even think about it. And I just said, [00:48:00] because I love it and I have to, and like following that impulse, like not even thinking of it, but being like, no, that's just my truth. Like, it sounds so cliche, but like, that's just my truth, you know?And then I had my mom and I was talking to her. She was like, you've worked so hard to create this whole life for yourself. And you're just going to move to Germany for this guy. Like, you know, so I did have some like you know, strong women in my ears. So that was good. But yeah, I think it's been the way.That I feel most connected to truth and my knowing and like, it's the thing that has kept me pursuing again to go back to the beginning, pursuing a life of authenticity over dogma or what is right quote unquote, right? What is logical even and that that's not to say that I'm not logical I am like I have a full time job that I also do with all of this other stuff But I just always have to go back to those things because I really believe those things being like acting and writing and the [00:49:00] belief that like I was designed with a certain skill set and with a passion to do it, so I need to do it, because I really believe that why, and this isn't to like diminish or belittle mental health, but I think the reason why we have a lot of mental health in our country is because we don't have a society or an economic system that allows people to explore the things they were actually meant to do.We, we have a society that celebrates a very specific You know, kind of financial success. And then like for me, I have a job. Katherine: Great. But not everyone does. Mattie: Not everyone is. We don't, we don't celebrate that. It takes all kinds. Right. And we decide what is worth what kind of money. So like, even though the guy trading, on wall street is doing nothing to better the world, literally nothing.Right? Like, he's just making rich people richer. Connecting a global economy, maybe. Like, maybe. It's [00:50:00] a stretch. But that motherfucker makes millions of dollars. The person stacking your shelves at Trader Joe's because it's a less whatever, like, skilled job? Not worth it. Unless we're in a pandemic and then they're considered an essential worker.Right? Like, It's just, I don't know so it's hard for people to pursue the things that they love in the capacity that I do, and we have lots of other systems in place that make it harder for other people from other incomes, , but but I do think that, like, if you don't do the thing you were looking for.Designed to do you will just keep finding ways to feel better, whether it's antidepressants or an addiction or, you know, whatever it is, avoidance until you just do that thing Katherine: exactly. And then you lay on the teaching and the Christianity. And the, how you're not supposed to have your own desires and they're supposed to be God's desires and we're [00:51:00] conditioned to fear our desires or to doubt them or mistrust them.It takes incredible amount of courage to say, I'm worth it and like my desires matter and these things that I want to do really matter and they're worth, they're worth taking that risk to pursue. And especially for women, I Mattie: think, especially for Katherine: women of, of where ours is always supposed to be subjugated to like a family, like having a family or a spouse or something like that.And and having to create that path is very, very challenging. What do you think, just as we're wrapping up, what are some things that you would share with folks who are Kind of on that same journey, either the deconstruction journey or just like pursuing, pursuing dreams [00:52:00] in the, in the aftermath of all of this toxic teaching that we got.Mattie: Yeah. Oh man. Well, one thing I wanted to say about like the, the desires thing, right? Two things is like, women aren't even allowed to desire An attractive person like we're not even allowed to say like, oh, I actually don't find this guy Very hot and so I don't want to be in a relationship with him because I am not attracted to him because we are always supposed to we are expected to always put like emotional connection above all right as if Me wanting to be attracted to my partner means that I don't also prioritize emotional connection, right?Like, these are the kinds of very nuanced ways that I had to pick apart narratives that I would come up against in a pursuit of following my desires. And then there's also, like, the worst thing to be as a woman, but also as an evangelical woman, for [00:53:00] sure, is selfish. It's because selfishness is a sin and we make selfish in those circles synonymous with like what do I say?Like a, a, a heartless bag of dicks. Like you're just so mean and you don't care about anybody else and you don't care how your actions affect anyone else. It's like, So it takes so much courage. Like I talked to women who have left marriages and whatever. And it's like, Oh my gosh, I huge kudos to them because that takes so much courage to just be like, this is not for me.And I actually didn't even choose this. I was just kind of like conditioned into it. And and to be selfish, it's not to be a heartless bag of dicks with zero empathy. To be selfish means that you prioritize yourself and if, if you're in a relationship, like if you can't even be good with yourself, you will not be good in your relationship, but we really vilified self focus, especially in evangelical circles, right?[00:54:00] What I would say to. You know, anyone in this deconstruction journey and like the pursuit of desire or dreams or whatever. I would say Trust trust the process It's not linear. And if you're going through it right now, there are So many resources when I was going through it. We didn't have words like purity culture or deconstruction or any of that So it felt very lonely, but now there are entire communities on my You On my website, I have a purity culture resource guide that in and of itself is going to be a really good start.And once you start clicking on some of these things on Instagram, the algorithm is going to know what you're looking for, and it's going to give you more of what you're looking for. So you can get communities, you can get books, you can get podcasts and then, yeah, just like, Get really good at sort of the personal development side of it, which is like self aware about what are your thoughts, identifying your thoughts, where are they coming from?[00:55:00] Because another masterful manipulation tool, the evangelical church knew about is neuro pathways. Your brain doesn't know the difference between a truth and a lie. It only knows what you tell it is the truth and what you tell it is a lie. So you actually have this amazing power as an individual to reconstruct what you believe is true and what you believe is a lie.And it takes work, right? It takes like, I call it like Jedi mind tricks, right? Like watch your thoughts. You got to grab your thoughts and then you got to decide, see where it's coming from, examine it, and then replace it with a new thought. And then before you know it, you really will have like a whole different brain chemistry happening.And you won't be so afraid of like going to hell if you don't do a morning Devo. But I think, I think don't underestimate the power of like the sort of like personal development of it all because you really are trying to change your brain and your truth.Oh, here's the other thing. You actually have a say in your [00:56:00] life. You are not actually at the whims of whether God is blessing you or punishing you. And that's where That's where that brain reconstruction happens because I, I cannot tell you how much better my life got when I learned that.And I, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really have been existing in this space. And I talk a lot about this in the book of like, everything I do is just a system of like punishment and reward. And now I have this, broader perspective and I actually have a say in my life and you actually have a say in your life.So and then yeah, if you keep putting off pursuing what you know, know you're called to do and it doesn't have to be big, right? Not everybody has to like, you know, have like go through a divorce and like become a van person. It can be as small as like, I really think I'm a writer. I'm going to take 15 minutes to write every day.It can be that, that. So yeah, I don't know if that was helpful or super blah, blah, blah, Katherine: but [00:57:00] absolutely no. And I think it's just helpful for folks to hear, especially because I feel like there's a lot of material about like the process of deconstruction and what's, you know, how to do it and I love opportunities to kind of talk about like. on the other side of it. Yes. After some of the mess has died down and some of the consternation has has settled a little bit. Right. Mattie: And beware of like the deconstruction movement being a little bit like, oh, we're just being zealous in a totally other way.Like it is becoming borderline dogmatic and some of it, you Katherine: know, it is. Yeah. Mattie: So there's no, there is no right way to do deconstruction. There is no, like you The hardest part of life is that there's, we have very little control and that most everything falls outside of a [00:58:00] category. And so the human design is to want to package everything pretty, pretty well.simply, but that's just not what being human is. And so your role is to, your job is to just develop tools like through the self help and through therapies and different modalities of how to navigate that, but how you navigate it is not a standard, you know? Katherine: Yep. Absolutely. And, and us by telling folks where they can find your, all of your things and follow you and prep to find your book.Mattie: So I do have a blog, so in the meantime, while you're waiting for the book to come out, which is September 10th, 2024 mark your calendars. I have an arsenal of amazing writing if I do say so of myself on my blog. So it's maddiejoecowsert. com. I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. Forward slash or backslash.I can't remember God, sex and rich people, the word. And or if you just Google Maddie Joe Cowsert. You'll find God, sex and rich [00:59:00] people. It's pretty high on my SEO. And then Instagram is at Maddie Joe Cowsert. So my name and subscribe to the blog because I'm making announcements there. But also it's just like, there's a lot there that I talk about dating.I talk about sex. I talk about faith. I talk about feminism. You know, so, and like what that even is and how it gets such a bad name or bad rap. And And I talk about sexual trauma therapy. I talk about my experience with sexual violence. And so there's a lot on there that you're not just going to get from this, like one hour podcast.And so I just encourage you to just go crazy and peruse. And most of them are like an eight minute read at most. And then my book is coming out, like I said, September 10th and we're not doing pre orders. So how we're doing it is just mark your calendars and buy the book on the day of. and leave a review you know, hopefully within like 20 days of it being out and an honest review.I won't ask you for a five star review, but an honest review because what that does is [01:00:00] as soon as a book goes live, the amount of like sales it has is really what matters. The pre sale thing is just if you're doing like your publisher wants to know how interested people are in your book. So I'm just like, whatever.Everybody just go buy it on the day. Mark your calendar, go buy it on the day. That is the biggest ask I could have from you. And then if you are interested in being part of my launch team, you can DM me and ask me about that, and I can send you, like, what that would entail. You would get an advanced manuscript, and then you would get, like, visuals of things to put on your social media, to kind of, like, shout it out.And, yeah, and then on my website, I have been on like a ton of other podcasts as well, so if you want to check out those, all the links are there yeah, but Instagram is really the most. I do have a Facebook page for God, Sex, and Rich People, but Instagram is, is the best. And we're going to be doing a launch, an in person launch as well.I'm going to try to stream it virtually because I also shot a pilot, a God, Sex, and Rich People pilot back in 2021, and I'm going to finally be airing that publicly. So, yeah, lots [01:01:00] happening. Thanks Katherine: Yeah, all right, everybody. I will put all the links in the show notes and keep an eye out for that book and all of the other things.Thanks so much. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes. I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.