Podcast appearances and mentions of joshua harris

In this insightful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, hosts Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb begin their series on Jesus's parables by examining the Parable of the Sower (or Soils). This foundational teaching from Christ reveals why some hearts receive the gospel message while others reject it. The hosts unpack the four soil types Jesus describes, exploring what each represents spiritually and how these patterns continue to manifest today. They emphasize that while the parable reveals different responses to the gospel, it also provides comfort for believers engaged in evangelism, reminding us that outcomes ultimately depend not on the sower's skill but on the condition of the soil—a condition that only God can prepare. This episode offers both theological depth and practical encouragement for Christians seeking to understand the various responses to the gospel message in their own ministry contexts. Key Takeaways The Parable of the Sower serves as a hermeneutical key for understanding all of Jesus's parables, as it directly addresses why Jesus taught in parables and provides the interpretive framework for understanding their purpose. The parable reveals four types of responses to the gospel (represented by the four soils), but only one that leads to genuine salvation and fruit-bearing. The focus of the parable is not on the sower's skill or the seed's quality but on the condition of the soil—emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation while encouraging continued evangelism. The "rocky ground" hearers represent those who initially receive the gospel with joy but have no root system to sustain them when trials come, often resulting in what we might call "deconstruction" today. Christians should expect varied responses to gospel proclamation and not be discouraged when the seed appears to be wasted on unresponsive hearts, as this pattern was predicted by Jesus himself. The parable provides a warning against shallow faith while encouraging believers to develop deep spiritual roots that can withstand persecution and trials. Genuine conversion is ultimately evidenced by fruit-bearing, not merely by initial enthusiasm or religious affiliation. Understanding the Soils The Parable of the Sower presents four distinct soil types, each representing different responses to the gospel message. The first soil—the path—represents hearts where the gospel makes no impact whatsoever; the seed simply bounces off and is quickly snatched away by Satan. This illustrates not merely outward rejection of the gospel, but also intellectual non-comprehension. As Tony explains, this doesn't necessarily mean active hostility toward the gospel but could simply be indifference: "It may not be someone who has like a closed fist, 'I hate the gospel, I hate everything about God,' but for some reason they're just not [interested]." This parallels Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that "the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him." The rocky soil represents those who initially receive the gospel with enthusiasm but lack depth. Their faith appears genuine at first but quickly withers under pressure or persecution. This phenomenon is particularly evident in what we often call "deconstruction" today—where someone who appeared genuinely converted falls away when their faith is tested. As Jesse notes, "I think what I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind...what's the length of time here? Is it possible that somebody could be in this place...which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end?" The parable reminds us that immediate joy at receiving the gospel is not necessarily evidence of saving faith, and it calls us to examine whether our own faith has sufficient depth to withstand trials. The Comfort of Realistic Expectations One of the most encouraging aspects of this parable is how it calibrates our expectations about evangelism and gospel ministry. Jesus teaches that when the gospel is proclaimed, we should expect varied responses—including outright rejection—not because of any failure in the message or messenger, but because of the condition of human hearts. This provides tremendous comfort for believers engaged in evangelistic efforts who might otherwise be discouraged by apparent failure. Tony highlights this point: "This parable is not about the skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed...The point of the parable...is that it has to do with the soil itself." This understanding frees us from the pressure of thinking we must somehow perfect our evangelistic technique or presentation, while also removing the false guilt that can come when people reject the message we share. Furthermore, the parable encourages continued, generous sowing of the gospel seed. As Tony observes, "We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this seed everywhere that he can." This reminds us that our responsibility is faithful proclamation, while the results remain in God's sovereign hands. Memorable Quotes "The Parable of the Sower teaches really that the gospel call goes out to all... but only those who God regenerates, that good soil, are gonna receive it savingly and will bear fruit." - Jesse Schwamb "Just because our experience of Christianity and our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that it felt real and genuine and rooted for [those who later fell away]... There's a caution there for us." - Tony Arsenal "The exhortation built into this is that we need to seek that root. We don't get to determine what kind of soil we are on an ultimate level—that's God's election and his secret providence. But on a horizontal level, in our experience of things, we have agency, we make decisions. We seek to be rooted or unrooted in the gospel." - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:36] Introduction and Greetings Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 462 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I am Jesse. Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast of Good Soil. Hey brother. Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Well, will you look at us? Look at us. It's finally and officially begun. And that is this conversation. [00:01:00] Kickoff to the Parable Series Jesse Schwamb: This episode is really the kickoff, well, the first parable that we're going through together, starting a long conversation that I think is gonna bear much fruit, if you will. Yes. Maybe 30, maybe 60, maybe a hundred times. Lord willing. It's gonna be great. And we're starting off with a doozy. Yes. Actually, maybe this is like the granddaddy of all the parables because we're gonna hear Jesus tell us something about the word of God and how it's received among different hearers. And this is so fantastic. It's the only place to begin because this is truly some eternally contemporary words. Yeah, it's, this is the parable that's continually verified under our own eyes. Wherever the word of God is preached or expounded and people are assembled to hear it, the sayings of our Lord in this parable are found to be true. It describes what goes on as a general rule in our congregations in the world. Anytime the word of God goes out, what a place to begin. So we're gonna get there. It's gonna be great, don't you worry, dear listener. [00:02:04] Affirmations and Denials Jesse Schwamb: But of course, before we do that, it's our tradition, our word that's spoken is always something in affirmation with something or in denial against something. So I say to you, as I always do, Tony. What do you have for us on this episode? Uh, an affirmation or denial. Tony Arsenal: This is an affirmation. I'll try to keep it nice and short and tight. Uh, I am affirming everything that comes with the fall. It's the air's getting crisp. The season, the, the pumpkin. Yeah. Not, not the fall. With the, let's, let's, let's clarify. I'm affirming everything that comes with autumn. So, uh, the air's crisp, the pumpkin spice is flowing, the leaves are starting to come down. Although, as a New Englander, I feel like I might be a little disappointed this year they're saying that it might not be as vibrant because we've been under a bit of a drought. But, uh, I, I'm all for all of it. Sweaters, gimme like a nice cozy scarf to put on and like a, I don't know, like a stocking cap. Gimme some flannel. I'm just ready to rock and roll. I'm, I'm, I'm done with summer and I'm ready for fall and yeah, that's, that's the whole thing. That's the affirmation. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. [00:03:09] Autumnal Delights and Debates Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. It's speaking of like eternally or seasonally contemporary. That is so good. Plus I would say like the fall or autumn. The best adjectives, doesn't it? Yes. Like including like the word ottum. Yes. Like, that's just a great word that we, we do not use enough of. So this season, loved ones dropping a tum in there because Yes. It's just such a good word. Tony Arsenal: And I, I know people hate on the pumpkin spice and uh, there was a rev, I think I've said this before, it's re revolutionized my understanding because I used to get so mad because I was like, this doesn't even taste like pumpkin. It's not pumpkin flavored items, it's pumpkin spiced. Flavored items. So it's the, the spice you would use in pumpkin pie is the spice that they're talking about. So people complain that you're just putting nutmeg in things. And to that, I say yes, that's the point. You just start adding nutmeg or pumpkin spice or cloves or all spice or whatever it might be. The point is we're using the same spices that you would use for making a pumpkin pie or some other sort of fall. Delicious fall. Pumpy squashy, goodness. Jesse Schwamb: You got that right. This is a classic case of don't hate the player. Hate the game. Tony Arsenal: It's true, it's true. And if you don't like it, if you don't like pumpkin spice, then just don't talk to me at all. I'm just kidding. Still get pumpkin spice. Like you can go to Starbucks and get the same, same coffee you always get. You don't have to get pumpkin spice, you don't have to drink pumpkin beer, you don't have to do any of that. The all the stuff is, all the normal stuff is still available. They don't tell you you can't have it. Nobody is opening your mouth and pouring it down your throat. So just calm down, order your normal drip coffee and move on with your life. Jesse Schwamb: Speaking of polarizing autumnal type things, I don't know if we've talked about probably, we have talked about this and I've just forgotten. Where do you land on the whole. Cotton, uh, sorry. Candy corn, not cotton candy, but candy corn. Tony Arsenal: I, I feel like we have talked about this and my perspectives may have changed over the years. I'm not a big fan of candy corn, but I will eat it until I vomit. If you put it in front, I think is the, is the consensus that if there's a bowl of it in front of me, the first thing that I will do is I will break off two little white tips of the ca uh, candy corn and stick them on my fangs and pretend to be vampire. Jesse Schwamb: Beautiful. Tony Arsenal: And then I will eat the remainder of the pound and a half of candy that's in front of me until I throw up. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. And I know there's some difference between like candy, corn and like the little pumpkin confectionary ones. Yeah. Some people prefer those over others. And then this is not even to talk about the whole debate between when it comes to Reese's Peanut butter cups and Oh yeah. The pumpkin variety of those and No, all that stuff. Tony Arsenal: No. Mm. Jesse Schwamb: No. To those? Tony Arsenal: No, to those. The, the shaped, the shaped, uh, Reese's Peanut butter objects, I suppose they're not cups at that point. Uh, they use a different kind of peanut butter. I dunno if you know that, but they use a different peanut butter. So they, they actually do taste different than the actual didn't know that says peanut butter cups. Um, it's either a different kind of peanut butter or a different kind of chocolate. But one of the primary substances, uh, not in the Aristotelian sense, uh, one of the primary substances is different. And so it does actually taste different. It's not as good. And then the balance between the chocolate and the peanut butter is off. It's, it's not good. I'm a, I'm a peanut butter cup. Uh, I like to say aficionado, but I think probably snob would be a better. A better term for it. Jesse Schwamb: Listen, you'll, you like what you like by the way, only on this podcast, only, I think among long-term listeners, would it be necessary to clarify that you do not mean substance in there was six alien sense. Tony Arsenal: That's true. That's, that's definitely true. Well, Jesse, that is where we are. Enough about my, uh, fall. Uh, food preferences. What are you affirming and or denying? Tonight, [00:07:02] Musical Recommendations Jesse Schwamb: I'm gonna also come along with you on it with the affirmation, and maybe while you're drinking that PSL or you're searching for that candy, corn, you might like, want something to put into your ears that isn't us, that's a little bit more melodic. And so I'm affirming with the, this time and age in which it is all about curation. That's often a lovely thing. I use Spotify for all of my music consumption, and they just fed me like a really interesting playlist that I would never have thought of as a category, but I've really been enjoying, it's called Math Rock. And I saw, and I thought I'm, I'm usually kinda like dubious of the Spotify playlist because like they're kind of out there for me generally. But I thought to myself, well, this is an interesting port man too. Like, I like math. I like rock, and the description was complex rhythms and mesmerizing loops. So I thought, I like complex rhythms. I like loops that continue and mesmerize, so the check it out for yourself. If you're looking for something that's like, it's enough to be interesting while you're working on something, but not too interesting. So that distracts you. This is apparently the jam. So yeah, it's like just really interesting rock oriented, mostly instrumental music that is like. Really motivating, but again, not interesting enough to really distract you from the task at hand if that's not your thing. The other thing I would recommend, I know you'll join me in this, Tony, is that poor Bishop Hooper released a new album this week. It's called The Serpent and the Seed, and this one has a ton of tracks on it, like 18 or so, and it, it as well is a unique mix of both instrumental, really lovely, beautiful pieces and then some that carry more vocal and melodic stuff that's kind of their customary jam. Both of 'em are great. They both do have kind of an an autumnal vibe, if I'm honest. Now I'm thinking about it. It's really the perfect compliment to whatever it is that you're consuming that has that pumpkin spice in it. So math, rock, the serpent and the seed. There you go. Tony Arsenal: I'm trying to synthesize. I mean, math and rock are like two of Jesse's favorite things. So I'm trying to synthesize what it would be like to scream the quadratic equation at someone with some sort of like slightly off cadence, dissonant guitar rift underneath. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Tony Arsenal: I feel like there's a Me Without You album out there somewhere that that's exactly what it is. But Jesse Schwamb: yeah, probably there should Tony Arsenal: be at least. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there, there absolutely should be. And I'm with you. I'm willing to work on that album. That's a great idea. Like just, it's just an album of mathematical equations and like the deep mysteries of life, you know, listen, math is beautiful. Numbers are stories. There's, there's so much there. Yeah. You had me at Quadratic, so I, I think we've, we've given people a lot to enjoy in this fall season. It's true. Tony Arsenal: I, I. I couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save my entire life at this point. Uh, I took introduction to logic when I got to college 'cause I couldn't remember how to multiply fractions on the entrance exam. That's fair. So that's fair. So that was, that's my experience with math. But right Jesse Schwamb: now the internet wants to keep serving me videos about, you've seen like all these tests, like these entrance exams for like Harvard or like the Ivy Leagues, other Ivy Leagues, and it is all these random things, you know, like we're solving for like two variables, terminally, and there is some kinda like expon explanation to it. Um. Yeah, I guess that's what I've become and I watch 'em all. They honestly get me every time. Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna watch that. And then I'm like, oh, I'm definitely gonna watch that. So it just happens. It's great. Tony Arsenal: I love it. Meanwhile, meanwhile, YouTube is desperately trying to get me to watch Season six and Cobra High. And it's very quickly gonna be succeeding. I think the next time Netflix has a, has a promotion where I can get a cheap month or something like that, I will definitely be binging Cobra Kai. So I feel like our YouTube algorithms are very different. Jesse Schwamb: Very different. Yeah. Very different. Certainly in, um, there is a commonality of, of the mysteries of the world and. [00:11:06] Introduction to the Parable of the Sower Jesse Schwamb: In some way, that's what we're talking about in this entire series. And yeah, if for some reason you didn't hear a conversation from two weeks ago where we really set the table, I think for what a parable is, why Jesus uses parables. As far as I remember, you correct if I'm wrong, it was the definitive conversation about why the parable is not just peace wise in Jesus' teaching, but really why it's the centerpiece. Yeah, we talked about that at great length. So now we're really ready to go. If you didn't hear that, I highly recommend you go back and hear that. 'cause there's so much. I realize as we, we looked at this parable of the sower or better like the parable of the soils, that we could do a whole series on just this bad boy. Such not just like wide interpretation, but wide application. So much for us to really chew on and then to really come back to and chew the could. So we're gonna have to be probably every time a little bit self-editing and brief. So if you're just yelling at your device, why aren't you talking about this thing? There's a great place for you to yell into or maybe just calmly and very politely suggest rather than the void, you can join our Telegram group. Telegram is just an app for, it's kind of a conversational tool and platform, and if you're looking for it and I know that you are, don't, why would you even fool yourself? It's, you can find it by going to T Me Reform Brotherhood. There's a whole channel, there's a bunch of channels there, a bunch of little conversations that we have compartmentalize. There's one just to talk about the episode. So as we go through this, my encouragement to everybody is track with us, get your scriptures out. Come along with us in the actual journey of processing this. Do spend some time processing it with us. And then when there is inevitably that thing, they're like, why didn't you talk about this? You know, a great place to converse with others and us about that would be in the Telegram Chat. So T Me Reform Brotherhood. So enough of that, let's get to it. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's, there's some, um, there's some logic that would say we should have just rather than doing an Introduction to Parables episode, we should have just done the parable, because this parable does really follow, it really does form like an introduction to all of Christ's parabolic teachings. And, you know, it's, no, it's no, um, mystery either in God's providence or just in Matthew as being a, a, you know, somewhat genius level composer of, of a work of literature in putting this parable first, because you're absolutely right at the top of the show that this parable really is. Almost like the hermeneutical key for all of the parables. Not just for in terms of like understanding the parables, it doesn't do that so much. But in understanding the purpose of the parables and more importantly, explicitly in the middle of this, Christ explains why he teaches in parables. So we covered that a lot last time, so we're not gonna, we're gonna skip over that middle section 'cause we don't need to rehash that. But this really is the granddaddy of all the parables. It it is, um. It is Christ's teaching on why he uses parables in action. It's the application of his own theology, of parables, if you want to call it that. Uh, in principle. And he is gracious enough that in this very first parable, he actually gives us the interpretation, right, which is, is not entirely unique, um, in, in the gospels, but it is not always the norm. There are a fair number of parables where Christ just drops the parable and leaves it there, um, for both his immediate listeners to figure out and then also for us to figure out. We're not given the inspired interpretation, but this one we are given the inspired interpretation. And Jesse, I had to laugh because, um. Just as you get really, really upset and worked, worked up about when people say Christ's body broken for you. Uh, it just drives me nuts when people call this the parable of the soils. 'cause Christ gives it a name, right? So, so we'll talk about that too. And I, I'm, I'm mostly playing, like, I'm not gonna jump through the screen at you or anything like that, but that's the, one of the other unique features of this parable is that it's given it's, it's given a name. Um, and that's part of the interpretation is that in most cases, parables have a primary figure or a primary point that's being made. And if you get that primary point wrong or that primary figure wrong, um, you tend to get the rest of the parable wrong. In this case, Christ graciously tells us who the parable is about or what the parable is about, and then later on when we get to the, the next parable or a couple parables down, um, he actually tells us more about the parable through some other teaching as well. [00:15:38] Reading and Analyzing the Parable Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, do you have that text in front of us? Do you wanna go ahead and read that first chunk? That's the parable itself. Jesse Schwamb: I do, let's do it by the way. Uh, maybe somebody should keep track. Here's a fun little game of how many times we say parable or parabolic. And of course, whenever I hear parabolic, I always think, of course there is like something of great hyperbole or allegory, but I often think of, uh, parabola, which to your point, Tony, I think you're just doing this for my sake now, and I love, this is an exponent oriented equation. Of course, it's a like a canonical section, which can only be creative mathematically by pronunciation again. So thank you for that. I thought you just did that for me, so Tony Arsenal: I have no idea what you just said. You might as well have been speaking like Hindu. Jesse Schwamb: It's fantastic. Well, let's, let's get to the actual, the best word, the word of life. And this is from Matthew chapter 13. Beginning just at the start of the chapter. That same day, Jesus went out of his, uh, house and sat beside the sea and, and great crowds gathered about him so that he got into a boat and sat down and the whole crowd stood on the beach. And he told them many things in parables saying. A sower went out to sow. And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path and the birds came and devoured them. Other seeds fell on rocky ground where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprung up since they had no depth of soil. But when the sun rose, they were scorched. And since they had no roots, they were it away. Other seeds fell among thorns and the thorns grew up and choked them. Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain. Some a hundred fold, some 60, some 30. He who has ears, let him hear. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. So on a surface level here, the, the parable is straightforward, right? We have a very straightforward picture, which is, is common for most of the parables, that it's not some sort of unusual, crazy out there situation that's being described. It's a common scenario from everyday life, uh, that doesn't tend to have sort of like. Mythological legendary kinds of characteristics. We have a simple farmer who is out sowing his seeds. Um, some of the commentaries we'll point out, and I don't, I dunno how accurate this is or isn't, but I, I saw it in, in a couple different commentaries. So I'm inclined to, to believe it that our model of farming, uh, in sort of a western world or, or maybe not western world, but in a more, I dunno, technologically advanced world, is to teal the ground till the ground first, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: And then to scatter seed. And it was much more common in the ancient world to actually scatter the seed kind of, uh, promiscuously and then till the ground. Um, I don't know the reasons for that. I'm not a horticulturist, but, um. The, the, one of the critiques that I've heard, and it's funny when people try to critique Jesus is 'cause they're always proven wrong, but one of the critiques I've heard is like, no farmer whatever would ever do this. Like, no, no sower would ever just throw seed on the ground, but this actually is the way they would've done farming. So he's, he's taking an everyday scenario that everyone would've been familiar with. Right. Nobody would've been like, oh yeah, that doesn't make any sense. They would've just said, oh yeah, of course you just throw the seed on the ground and then you come back around later and you do what you need to do. So it, it was really a scenario where some of the seed would've fallen on the path. And we're not talking about like a road next to the farm, but a lot of times the, the field had sort of, um. They're probably called like convenience trails is what they're called now. But people would travel through the, through the paths, and so there would be an area that's already walked, walked on that's a little bit easier to traverse. And eventually that area would turn into a pathway. So it was, it was kind of turned into sort of like hard clay turf that you couldn't get the seed into anyways. And then there would've been areas where, um, there was rocks under the surface. Most of our fields that our farm fields have been tilled and prepared and have been worked over, that the stones had been removed. But it wasn't always like that in the ancient world. And then you would've had areas where there was, uh, there was other vegetation, thorns, weeds, other kinds of plants that would've made, made it difficult for the crop to sprout and to bear fruit. So we have a very common scenario. There's nothing surprising about this. There's nothing out of the ordinary. It's just a simple farming metaphor that Christ employs here. Jesse Schwamb: And in some ways that's very consistent of course, because we have these very ordinary, normal things that God is using as a means of explanation for something that is very extraordinary, very supernatural. So we have the natural coming into play, not just as a representation, but to really demonstrates, illustrates and impound both in structure and form. This idea of what it means for the gospel to be communicated. And I'm with you, my understanding is in most ancient world. Those, those fields, we tend to think of them as fields and often the reference that way were like more like these narrow strips of land separated by these paths and you have this farmer casting the seed like very liberally. And not only that, but I think what's interesting right on the face. Is we see that there are basically four potential outcomes here and only one of those outcomes, 'cause we're already understanding this to mean the sowing of the sea, which is the word of life, which is the gospel message. Only one of those outcomes results in kingdom growth. There's a ratio of three to one. There's three times as many poor outcomes. In other words, there's all of these various ways in which we find that the seed is not rejected or does not result in the intended fruit. But there is just one path, one narrow kind of way in which it does result, and then it results in kind of various outcomes in terms of like the magnitude of the fruit or the plants that result from this planting. But as a result of that. I think what's really interesting to me right on the face is that we're seeing, like you said, there is a sower. He's casting the seed deliberately, he's coming on the path and he's just throwing it out. And in that narrow strip of land, there are all these different soils. And so right away we see if you're, if you're a farmer, you're understanding something about, it's not about the skill of the farmer in the casting of the seed. It's not even about the, the skill of the seed to grow. It's about the soil itself. And so again, we have this as three times as many potentially poor outcomes as there are for the one that results in this grand harvest. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And the one thing about this that might be, might have been, and, and again, some of the commentators are, are split on this, but might have been a sort of unexpected, um, element. And, and this is something we do see with, uh, with the parables, is there's usually some sort of, um. Unexpected or dramatic or turn of events kind of element, usually towards the end of a parable that would make, would, should be a subversion of expectations. Right? Right. And so the, in this instance, um, a yield of 30 times or, or 60 times or a hundred times, all of those yields would be crazy high yields. Um, you know, I, I, I think there are some plants, some of the commentators will make, make a point that there are some plants where like a 30. A 30 yield is normal. Um, but a 30 or a 60 or a hundred times yield of a crop is, is not the expectation. And so I think in, in a scenario like this, the reader or the listener is prepped by the fact that there are three, uh, negative outcomes and only one favorable outcome. To assume that the crop yield is not going to be great. Right? And then the reality is the crops that do sprout the crops that land on the good soil or the seed that lands on the good soil. Not only is it productive, it's so productive that it actually outpaces and kind of compensates for the lack of productivity or the lack of fruitfulness of the other three. So it's, it's three different, uh, it's four possible outcomes and then three levels of fruitfulness. And so this parable does sort of cause the listener or the hearer to think about, um, and start, you know, from the very outset, think about what does, what does it mean that the seed landed on the path and was stolen away by the birds? What does it mean that it sprouted quickly and uh, but didn't have roots and so it withered away in the sun? And what does it mean that, you know, it sprouted among thorns and so it couldn't bear fruit. And then I think the implied, um, the implied question that's being forced here because the parable does start out, you know, saying there was the sower, the sower, um. Sowed this seed out. He doesn't introduce this the same way he normally, he normally does or commonly does, right? Jesus often will start the peril ball by saying something like, the kingdom of God is like, right? Or you know this. This is like that. This, he just starts out saying like, a sower was out in the, in the field sowing seed. So the, the listener is not primed to know what the comparison is necessarily, but I think part of that is that now they're forced to ask what is the comparison? And I don't think it's much of a stretch. And again, this is why parables are so kind of paradoxical is it's not a difficult, when we get to the interpretation, it's not difficult to see the interpretation. Right, right. It's, it's easy to understand that the parable here, the metaphor is, is different reactions of, of some sort to. To a given thing, right? It's, it's different reactions to an investment of some sort. There's an investment of seed and in some instances it just doesn't take, in other instances, it takes and it doesn't sprout, and in other instances it sprouts, but it never fruits. So when we get to the interpretation, Jesus is gonna give us the clarity of what that investment is, and then who are, or what are the outcomes and what do they mean? In, in our, you know, in our thought process of what the kingdom of God is like. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so let's do it then. [00:25:44] Understanding the Soils Jesse Schwamb: 'cause what we've got here is we basically have, each soil is representing some type of here. So we've got four heres but only one true believer. So it's probably behooves us to go through all of them and really kind of chat through. And maybe what we can do is try to bring some of our own practical application to each of these. I've been really meditating and pondering that, trying to think if this is practical for us, then how can we understand how each of these are being manifest all around us? And of course the intention here is not to like name people that we think fall into each of these four little groups, but more so to think about how we might understand people who do fall into each of these groups. And that is to say that. Each one of these, well, the, the first three rather, that these ones in which they're, the soil is in some degree suboptimal. I, I don't know that it means that it's always that way, for instance. So we might think of people that fall into those categories, but the Lord may be moving or working in them to move them into that fourth category. And of course, he's done that with ourselves, so we know that that's exactly how he operates. Um, and it's, I think it's good for us to remember that. I think there's a lot that's scary about this first soil, this idea that. The seed just bounces. So we get no uptake whatsoever in this one. But the other ones, at least you get a little satisfaction that there's some kind of reception. There is a receipt of that word. And the reason why I find this one to be so troubling is because these who hear it in the first case, they don't understand and they don't esteem it. And Christ is very clear to say that the seed itself doesn't sit there long. It bounces. So there's a, there is a literal hardness. That's reflected in that clay soil or that path, which is down trotted. And it's hard because of perhaps this constant lack of belief, this constant and unrepentant hearts or lifestyle, but it would be enough if it just kinda bounced off and sat there. But the fact that it's snatched away that the birds come and take it away, that Satan himself has an active and powerful role in influencing all of those who are hearing this word. And I think that hardness of heart may not just be manifest in, say, like an unrepentant lifestyle or this kind of clench fist against God on the inside, which is of course true of the natural man. But more than that, that anything that would take us away from true belief. So that is even any kind of our religious system or belief, any kind of philosophy, any kind of other worldview I think is in mind here because we know the devil comes to kill, steal, and destroy. And so. What he's doing in that sometimes happens first and foremost in the mind, manifested in the heart and then in our behaviors. So if he's stealing away this word by replacing it with something that is false, that is not true, that destroys, that pulls us away and moves us away, then this is very scary. He has a real power, which we talked about. I don't know, like maybe six or so episodes ago. It's worth listening to, I think. And so what I find here that is really traumatizing upfront is the involvement in particular of the sinful man under his own mean estate. That is, that it's clear that the natural man cannot conceive of the things of God without regeneration, and Jesus makes it abundantly clear. He's, he's basically saying what Paul says later on in First Corinthians when he writes, the natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, does not accept them. So again, there's no agreement. There's no, even an intellectual ascent does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are folly to him and he's not able to understand them because they're spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one for who is understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him. But we have the mind of Christ, so there is no mind of Christ, which is, it's a horrible way to live life. And so in that space we have both the natural man, his total depravity, unable to pull himself up by his theological bootstraps or philosophical bootstraps or his intellectual emotional bootstraps to even discern what the way in which the world really actually is. And then in in, I say in addition to that, we have the devil himself waging war and attacking by pulling away that seed. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I have a little bit of a different take on this and I think this is what I am looking forward to in this series. Is there, there is gonna be. [00:30:01] Understanding the Parable of the Sower Tony Arsenal: Different, uh, different understandings that probably all fall and are all compatible, but all fall within a acceptable range of understanding. Here, you know, I, in, in reading some of the commentaries, Calvin makes the point that all four of these different types of seed represent people who in some sense are open to the gospel. They're, they're open to, he, he makes the point that this is not talking about the, the person who like refuses to hear the gospel at all, who like won't even come into the church. This is a person predominantly who is, is exposed to the word in some sense, probably in view as someone who's among the people of God who's in the, in the, in the physical body of the people of God who's among Christians or among those hearing the word. And for whatever reason, the, the, the seed doesn't, uh, it doesn't even get into the soil. Right, and he compares, Christ compares, um, this not to somebody who is hardhearted, but to someone who doesn't understand, right? That there's an intellectual element to this, right? You think of, um, you know, you think of somebody who hears the scripture and probably understands outwardly what it means, but doesn't ever comprehend it internally. They don't ever really, they don't ever really let it penetrate into their, into their hearts. Um, so it's been sewn into their hearts, but it doesn't actually take root in their hearts in any other sense. [00:31:38] The Role of the Soil in Receiving the Word Tony Arsenal: And this is what's a little bit different from, from the other ones that we're gonna see in all of the other cases. The seed takes root, Jesse Schwamb: right? Tony Arsenal: It actually penetrates the ground and begins to grow. Um, it, this is a seed that never even makes it that far. And so it may not be someone who has like a, who necessarily has like a closed fist. I hate the gospel. I hate everything about God, but for some reason they're just not. And when we say for some reason I'm talking, obviously I'm talking la you know, horizontally. Um, we know that the reason that they don't have an open heart is 'cause the Holy Spirit is not open to their heart. But for whatever earthly temporal reason, the word just doesn't penetrate. It bounces off of them. It just doesn't get there. Not necessarily because they're outwardly hostile to it. They just maybe are not interested in it. And so this is where I think that. Along with the evil one, snatching it away. That's actually like one in the same thing. Is, is part of what I think this is getting at is that the, the, the only reason that the, um, that Satan can snatch away the word from their heart or what has been sewn into their heart is because their heart has not received it. And so it's that sort of dual function and, and maybe it's kind of like, almost like, uh, in Exodus, you know, God hardening the heart and then Pharaoh hardening the heart and those two things are happening, you know, by means of concurs that God is doing it in a divine sense. I almost feel like this is an instance where kind of like the, the census or, or with job where Satan is the one who is doing it, but it's ultimately attributed to God as well. It's the hardening of the heart, but it's also the hardness of heart. Um, all of those things are playing a dynamic, but ultimately the point here is that there are those who the word is preached to. [00:33:30] The Sower's Responsibility and the Soil's Condition Tony Arsenal: Um, you know, we will find out in, in a little bit later, like, the sower is Christ in, in these parables here. It's not, it's not generally the sowing of the word. It's Christ who is sowing the word. It's the son who is sowing, uh, the seed of the word. And we can think about that either during his own ministry. This certainly was, um, was true of his own ministry on Earth, that there were some who just did not receive the word and they just, it just bounced off of them. But then also as the son sows the seed through his people, down through the church age, through history, whether it's in the Lord's Day service or personal, witnessing, personal, you know, um, evangelism, it's still God who is sowing the seed. It's still the Lord who is the sower of the seed. But even in that context, there are still some who just don't receive it. So I think what you said earlier is really, is really spot on. This parable is not about. The skill of the sower or even the efficacy of the seed. Right. And I think sometimes people read this and they, they look at it as though it is actually the sewer's fault. What a dumb sower. He sowed it on the path. Of course it's not gonna take root. That's not the point of the parable at all. The point of the parable, and we learn it just right, this very first one, is that it has to do with the, the soil itself. Which is why, you know, I, I kind of joke about calling it the parable of the soils, and that's a fine way to refer to it. And most of these parables could have multiple different, you know, accurate titles as well. But the point of the parable, or the main point of the parable is that the soil itself is what determines the outcome. Again, you know, we, we don't need to get into all the theological details of how the soil becomes, what the soil is. This show has the word reformed in the title. You can figure out that we're gonna say, well, God is the one that prepares the soil. And that also just fits with the, with the a parable here, right? The good soil is only good because it's been tilled and prepared by the sower ahead of time, right? So I think that's, that's spot on. And, and you know, as I think about the people I know in my life, um, it's very easy to get discouraged when you try to so seed to, to follow through on the metaphor when you try to so seed and it feels like it bounces off. But we shouldn't be surprised at that. We shouldn't be surprised when someone is just not interested because Christ in his very first parable tells us there are people out there like that. That doesn't mean you don't sow the seed, it doesn't mean you don't continue to spread the seed the way that the sower does. And the reason for that is that some of it is going to take, take root, some of it is going to take root and bear fruit and you are not in charge and you don't control which one does which. We don't see the sower in this parable meticulously only identifying the good soil and only planting the seeds there. He does promiscuously spread this, so this seed everywhere that he can. [00:36:26] The Reality of Hardheartedness Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there is something there that I think is comfortable about this hardness of the soil, because I think sometimes we underestimate that the normative position of man is to be antagonistic toward God. That's not to say like we're talking about in their every action they take, they're going to refuse to hear the gospel or they're going to fight vehemently or out outwardly against it. But it's true that everywhere we find the scriptures, whether it's this other metaphor about God, again, doing this great surgery, of taking out this height of stone, which is of course hardheartedness or whether we go to like Romans three, where Paul says that there's no one who understands, there's no one who seeks God. So we understand that the default position is, one, nobody's seeking after God. Two, that God is too threatening to us. He threatens ourself. He threatens our ego, he threatens our own way. He threatens our contingency, all of which we try to fight against, like to our own dismay. And you know, basically. You know, it's willing, suspension of disbelief. But it's interesting and I think comforting here that what he's saying is, is exactly what you've just said, which is do not he, he'd almost say like loved ones. Do not be surprised when you find that people are just not that interested. They're just not into the gospel. Because your default position is to be a gospel abuser. To be a covenant breaker. And so because of that, there's just a natural hardness. And that hardness, I think he has to draw out. He has to say it's gonna bounce and Satan's gonna snatch it away because it would be, it's too easy to look at those who are just like vehemently opposed to the gospel that wanna debate. You wanna shut you down, wanna yell at you, wanna put signs in your face, wanna spit on you. That's too easy to be like, well, of course. Those people are not gonna receive it. But what about the quiet people who just don't care? Or, yeah. What about the people who are too caught up in their way of life or their simple behaviors or their patterns, or again, just what? What about those? What about the Mormons? When they come to your door and you can speak into your blue in the face about what Paul says, like the gospel plus anything is anathema, and they're just kinda like, yes. Yeah. Totally. That's fine. Totally down with that. And you're like, yeah, but you're doing, you're doing that very thing. This is great comfort to know that even those situations where you're not at war explicitly with somebody, that it's still comforting to know that this is going to happen. And also I think it's a great reminder that apart from God, apart from that changing of the soil, as you said, Tony, we would be those same people. That's in fact where we start. I, I don't say that. Like there's a progression here. We find in the, from moving from one to four. There is though something like you've said, where it's just interesting that Jesus shows us the very kind of shades of this. And I think, again, we gotta get out of our head like the, the temporality of this or like, well, what length of time are we talking about? Like when we get to the second one, which we should move on to. And there is some sprouting of the seed. Like how much time are we talking about? Like if it's two weeks, are they in camp two, if it's three weeks, are they moved out of that into some other, one of the other schools? Uh, I think it's just to show us that there are really, again, four hearers, one believer, and we can see clearly what the one believer looks like. It's a little bit more difficult to maybe sometimes discern what the other three look like, but it gives us hope and encouragement and basically just a sense of like, this is the way the world works. To know pres positionally, that when we go out, and like you said, I love this already, this is a major theme, is speak the gospel to all people. I mean, in this way, the gospel is for all people. Because Jesus' saying, do not cast the seed here. Go and look at that narrow path and find out, try to keep it off the, the hard ground. Do not let the devil snatch it up. It just says, throw and seed, throw and seed. And so we have to keep doing that stuff. [00:40:10] The Challenge of Shallow Roots Jesse Schwamb: So let's get to number two. What, what? Yeah. What say? Yeah. Tony Arsenal: Let me read it here. This is in verse, uh, 20 and 21. Here. It says, as for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while. And when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the world, immediately he falls away. So thi this is the person who, um, who has some sort of outward conversion experience, right? It's a person who receives the word, he receives it with joy, um, and appears to sprout, right? This is seed that has taken hold and has, uh, you know, the, the, and we, we can see that it has taken hold. So it's not just some hidden seed that has roots and never breaks the surface. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a plant that has made its way into the soil. It has taken roots of some sort. Um, but the roots are shallow. The roots never actually get, uh, deep enough to, to be able to survive the sun, right. In the, the original parable, it's, it's baked by the sun. And, you know, this is, um, I think what what we're gonna see is maybe to sort of preface your question, and I think probably this is gonna be one of those two parter episodes, even though we planned it to be one parter episode. Um, I think what we're gonna see here is that you can't actually know whether someone is. The hard rocks is the rocks or the thorns. Right? Un until, until all is said and done. Right. Right. And that's part of what's difficult is you, you want to look at a parable like this, and this is where I think maybe this is a good sort of like caution against overinterpreting, the parables, right? Christ is not trying to give us a rubric to identify who is what. Jesse Schwamb: Right. He's Tony Arsenal: not trying to give us like a litmus test to say like, that person is the hard soil. That person is the rocks. That person is the thorns. And you know, this reminds me, I, I recall, I, I dunno how many years ago, it was a couple years ago when Kanye West was going through his like Jesus phase, right? And he, everyone was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that Kanye is a Christian and he's writing this album called Jesus. Jesus Saves. And, and I, I just remember saying at the time, like, guys, there's a parable of the soils here. Like we should be. Um, we should be joyful that it, it appears that this seed is taking root, but there are lots of different outcomes when the seed takes root. And it's funny because I, I don't, I don't remember what episode this was and please don't go look it up 'cause that's a waste of everyone's time. But I remember when that conversation happened and I don't know whether there was an affirmation or a denial or what context came up in, but I remember contrasting him to Justin Bieber. And it's ironic, right, because I actually just read on Twitter today. Let me see if I can find the post during the next time you're talking. Justin Bieber posted this really amazing, theologically astute, mature kind of statement on Twitter today. And I think at the time, if you had asked me, um, is Kanye more likely to be the good soil or Justin Bieber to be the good soil, I would've said Kanye. Right? Just because he's, he was older, he is a little bit more established in himself. Um. Justin Bieber was still very young. He was, he was sort of like all over the place personality wise. He seemed to be changing radically. And it just goes to show like, you can't tell. And, and I'm not even saying right now like, this is, this is where it gets difficult. I'm not even saying right now, Justin Bieber is good soil, although I did right. Retweet his quote and did hashtag good soil. Almost aspirationally, right? But we can take a look at someone's life in retrospect and say, this person is bearing fruit, or this person is not bearing fruit. And, and that's really where this particular, um, type of soil goes. It's not so much the fruit, it's the sprout. And I think when we look at a situation like Kanye and, and. There's hopefully still a lot of life left for Kanye, and that means there's still hope for a con, a genuine conversion and bearing fruit that keeps with repentance that does not appear to be what had happened at the time. Right? He's gone totally off the rails at this point. So we pray for that. We hope, we hope for better things for him. Um, but. At the time, Kanye was, is he, he's going by Y now. I don't even know what to call him anymore. But Kanye was a sprout that grew up with great joy quickly. And what we found through time is that it appears that he, when he was, although maybe he fits better into the second, this next category that we'll have to push off till next week, I think. But either way, like he appeared to have sprouted, he appeared to have taken root and ultimately did not actually bear fruit. And that's the defining feature of these first three ones. It's not so much about what happens with the seed. Does it get in the ground? Does it not get in the grow? Does it sprouts, does it not sprout? It's ultimately about the fruitfulness, right? The final, the final phase of the parable, the final, um, the final type of soil is the one that produces fruit. So we'll get to that in detail, but that's what we need to think about. And again, like I said, it's not as though crisis saying like, all right, here's this checklist of ways to determine whether someone's conversion is correct, is true or not. Because we can't know that until after the fact and well after the fact. We also can't know that it's valid until after the fact. What I think this parable, broadly speaking, gets at is that we have to look at every situation and realize that there are these different possible outcomes. And although I don't know that this is explicitly part of the parable, it also sort of points us to the fact that like, because it's not a foregone conclusion about what's gonna happen, maybe there's also something we can do about it. Right? Right. Maybe when we realize someone might be on the rocky soil. Whether we, we have some reason to believe that or we just want to get out in front of that possibility, maybe there's still room to actually get in there and, and move the seed to a different soil, I guess might be a better way to use the metaphor is to, to just take the seed somewhere else or to till the soil, to get the rocks out of the soil. Although this is not talking about like rocks in the soil. It's talking about a layer, probably a layer of bedrock. Like Yes, exactly. Just under the surface. Jesse Schwamb: Right? So Tony Arsenal: there is an immutability about these, these different categories of, of people, and again, this is where like overinterpreting, the parable can get to be problematic, but we, we see that there are these categories, we can't necessarily know which one of these categories a person is in when they have some sort of outward expression of faith where they've received. I think we can tell the difference between that first category. Someone who just has not received the, the gospel at all, has not received the word of God at all, right? Like it's just bounced off of him. It's made no impact. I think we can see that that's a relatively straightforward, um, situation for us to assess. And of course we can't see someone's heart, but it's, it's usually pretty outwardly, readily available to us that they just have not received the word in any means. Right. When we get to these second two categories, that's not the case. We're talking about two different categories of people who have received the word and it has begun to sprout. It has begun, it actually has sprouted, not just begun to sprout, but it's sprouted. Um, I just think we need to be really careful to sort of not place someone in an immutable category until after we've seen what's gonna happen. Yes. Really across their whole life. Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:47:41] The Importance of Deep Roots in Faith Jesse Schwamb: I'm glad you brought that up because we really have to remember that in the last three instances, you cannot tell from the soil what the outcome will be. So it is a little bit, I'm with you, kind of a misnomer in the translation. This idea of like rocky soil. Yeah. If it were truly like rocky soil, the way that probably most of us in the Western think of it like soil mixed with gravel, right? They're probably, the sewer would be like, why would I throw it on there like that? That doesn't make any sense. Certainly again, if you're looking for that, that really fertile, well tilled ground, the one that looks promising, you wouldn't do that. So more than likely, I'm with you. We're talking about like a hired limestone layer that would've been like a few inches below, and as the sun would come down, my understanding is of course, like that limestone would heat up. It'd be like the perfect warm environment for like a seed to immediately like spring up with some hope. And that's exactly I think what Jesus is after here. It's this idea that the seed springs up immediately. People receive the message with joy. There's been no root or development to deeper moist soil though, because it doesn't exist. It gets blocked out. But inci incidentally, like the heat of that rock bed actually is the thing that causes it to germinate and produce at least a sprout really, really quickly. But as soon as like any kind of other heat comes upon it, because it cannot not grow deeper because it cannot set the roots, because it cannot get enough water from deep down, then it's going to be quick to die. I think we see this all the time. Maybe we even see this to some degree, not exclusively and in the same kind of magnitude in our own lives. But you know, we may listen to a sermon with pleasure while the impression produced in us is like only temporary, short-lived. You know, our hearts can be like that stony ground. Sometimes it may yield like a plentiful cop clap of warm feelings and like good resolutions and good vibes. How often do we hear that language? But all this time, there may be no deeply rooted work in our souls. And that first like cold blast of oppression or temptation may cause like all of that to go away. What I see interpret it from this particular group and, and this the one that follows it very much the same is like a conversion to religion. So here where this is where I firmly, like, I think we have a class, and this might trigger some people, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We have a class for this to me is deconstructionism. Yeah. And I think what I've, I've been helpful for me is to get outta my mind is that. I'm not sure that we have to be so concerned in this, this metaphor or this great parable about like what's the length of time here? So for instance, is it possible that somebody could be in this place where there is this hard layer of rock, which presents like a setting down of deep roots that could last like years on end. Yeah, where somebody has heard the gospel message has come into the life of the church and finds that this is generally a pleasant way to believe and to live and to express these ideals until maybe they have a strong voice somewhere or they're confronted with the fact that this, their message now is not very tolerant. And so as soon as there comes against them, this push that maybe what you're saying is too exclusive, that all of a sudden there really is a manifestation that there's no real root there. Yeah, there was no conversion. There was a conversion to religious principle and ideas and insomuch as those things didn't push too much against whatever objectives they had. Not even like going after what happens in the the third instance here with all the pleasures of life and all the temptations of the flesh, but just that there is some challenge. To what they believe and that it would be continually lived out in their actual lives, meaningful enough that it would impact behavior, change their mind, and continue to make them outspoken about the thing in which they're setting their roots into that if those things would cause the death of. That sprouts, then to me, that's where we find deconstruction isn't falling. And so in that case, again, it's comforting because it's not a matter of actual conversion as it were. It's not a matter of actual regeneration that hasn't actually occurred. There's plenty of reasons to come alongside and to give the gospel some kind of favor or to give it some kind of acquiescence because it's good on its own. There are lots of things that are good about it, but the rootedness in that is not merely in the outward manifestations of all the benefits of the gospel. It is getting Christ, as we've said. Yeah. And if we're not abiding in Christ, then we will necessarily die. In fact, Christ says elsewhere when he speaks to himself that even every bad branch that does not bear fruit, the father prunes and throws away. And so here we find that happening. It's, this is traumatic, it is dramatic, but this is where I think we see oftentimes Christians really get unnerved and sometimes it really, I think, rocks them when they see people who've had, like you said, Tony, like some professional faith. And I remember us talking about Kanye, and I remember us saying like, I think you and I were cautiously optimistic. We said like, this is fantastic. God does this very thing where he transforms people. And then we see in the long term, in the long run, the manifestation of that transformation, not in just merely as sinner's prayer or some expression of knowing something about the gospel intellectually, but the living it out so that the plant itself grows up in Christ to know of his great love, and then to share and abide in that love where it bears fruit. And so here I find this again, to be just very comforting because I think we see this a lot and our nerves, a lot of Christians, but I think Christ is giving an example here to say, do not be a unnerved by this. [00:53:10] Encouragement for Sowers and Believers Tony Arsenal: Yeah, maybe one last thought and then we, we can push pause until next week when we come back to this parable. Is. I think it's, there's two words in this, um, this little, these two verses here that really stick out to me. There's the, the word immediately, right? Yes. He immediately receives it with joy. That word is repeated later on when he immediately falls away. So there is a, um, there's a, a sense of suddenness to this, to this kind of, I'm using quotation marks if you're not watching the YouTube to this quotation or this, um, conversion experience, right? I think we all know people who have kind of the slow burn conversion experience, right? That's not to say that those people may not be, um, on hard soil or rocky soil. Right. But the, the person that we're talking about in that crisis talking about is the person who hears the word and has every appearance of an outward, radical, outward conversion of joy. And then joy is the second word that that shows up here. One of the things that drives me crazy, you know, maybe just to, to riff off the, the deconstruction, um, narrative a little bit is it drives me crazy when some sort of, um, high profile Christian falls away from the faith or deconstructs or falls, you know, into deep sin and then abandons the faith or has a tragedy happened in their life and whatever reason they abandon the faith. There's this tendency particularly among, I, I think sort of. I don't know if like, there still are young restless reform Christians out there, but I think it's still a valid descriptor. Kind of like the, I'm trying not to be pejorative, but sort of like the surface level tulip is what I call them, like the five point Calvinists who like heard an RC sprawl sermon one time and think that they are like the def, they're the definition of Calvinism. There's this tendency among that demographic that when somebody falls away from the faith to act as though everything about their experience of Christianity was somehow like an act like it was a, it was a, it was a play they were putting on, they were deceiving everybody. Right. That's that's not real. It's not the, it's not the way that it actually works and, and. I think the, um, the flip side and the caution for us in that is that just because our experience of Christianity and our, our experience of being in the faith feels so genuine and real and rooted, we should also recognize that like it felt real and genuine and rooted for Derek Webb or for name, name your key, you know, Joshua Harris, name your big profile deconstruction person of the day. Um, there's a caution there for us and I think that's the caution here in this, um, in this, I dunno, part of the parable is. Just as this is saying, the reason that the person falls away immediately is because there is no root in them yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately falls away, right? The cause of this is because there is no route that ca

The book version of Chasing Lights will be released in early 2026. It tells the story of his childhood under the Northern Lights in Alaska where the small things, the ordinary lives lived in an impossibly big world under the Lights are what really matter. Chasing Lights Conversations explores how different people chased their own lights and what they have learned along the way. Joshua Harris sat down with Gunnar in August of 2025 to discuss his own life journeys in New York City and rural Florida, and how it has shaped his way of seeing the world.

Brad and Lesley break down the interview with Dr. Celeste Holbrook, a sex educator and author who helps people move beyond shame and create healthy intimacy. They explore how harmful cultural narratives impact women, why communication matters more than technique, and how to reclaim your sexual choices as your own.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:How to make your own Pilates sandbag and what size cord works best.The impact of purity culture on women's sexual experiences.Why sex isn't static and how it evolves as you mature.The people-pleasing responses that block real connection.Dr. Celeste's four-part guide to heal any sexual challenges.The importance of prioritizing oneself and going at one's own pace.Episode References/Links:UK Mullet Tour - https://opc.me/ukP.O.T. Chicago 2025 - https://pilates.com/pilates-on-tour-chicagolandCambodia October 2025 Waitlist - https://crowsnestretreats.comWinter Tour Waitlist - https://opc.me/eventsHow to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag - https://www.youtube.com/live/tn4yUcEQnnMSubmit your wins or questions - https://beitpod.com/questionsMissionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture by Dr. Celeste Holbrook - https://a.co/d/3UimUKxI Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris - https://a.co/d/38uINCkI Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye Documentary - https://streamable.com/1ldz9cEpisode 202: Jake Kelfer - https://beitpod.com/jakekelferIf you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co mailto:beit@lesleylogan.co. And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe https://lesleylogan.co/podcast/#follow-subscribe-free. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/BITYSIDEALS! DEALS! DEALS! 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So she was like sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then she gets married, and all of a sudden, sex is good. Lesley Logan 0:19  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self-doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring bold, executable, intrinsic and targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started. Lesley Logan 1:02  Welcome back to the Be It Till You See It interview recap where my co-host in life, Brad, and I are going to dig into the freeing convo I had with Dr. Celeste Holbrook in our last episode. If you haven't yet listened to that interview, feel free to pause this now and then listen to it, and then come back and join us here. I'm gonna tell you right now. We talked about sex, baby. So you're gonna wanna listen to it. I also have her book. I'm so excited about it. We talked about a lot of stuff it. We went all places. Yeah, we didn't really talk about positions or things like that. We just, like talked about the things that people don't talk about.Brad Crowell 1:36  Actually, you know what you talked about more than anything else, was communication.Lesley Logan 1:39  Yeah, oh, yeah, we did. Oh, and, you know, what's really interesting, her book is so timely at the time we're recording this in my fucking Instagram feed, some stupid man decided to talk about stinky coochies. Oh, yeah. And your coochie needs to be Christian if you don't want your husband to cheat on you. The fucking bullshit that people lie to women about. Lie, just bold face fucking lie. Brad Crowell 2:05  There's no such thing as a Christian coochie Go fuck yourself. That is insane. Lesley Logan 2:09  It also, also, also, I don't care what you believe, it is never your fucking fault if someone cheats on you, it's never your fault. It's always about them. There's something going on there. It's not your fault. Period.Brad Crowell 2:24  Yeah, I was incensed after watching that video. And there's a special place in hell for that pastor.Lesley Logan 2:30  Yeah, there really is. And then I just listened to an interview about some girls who were, like, raised in a purity culture, and I forgot, I had forgotten a lot of the shit that I was, like, told and now and then I read, I've been reading her book, and it's like, holy fuck. It's a wonder, it's a wonder women anywhere are having actual sex that's not painful. So anyways, go read her book. Go listen to that episode. We're gonna talk about some good stuff in a second. I promise. I promise. I do think that the world does get better at some point. I do. I do. I have to believe in that. Lesley Logan 3:00  Today is September 4th 2025 and it is National Wildlife Day. And on National Wildlife Day, hold on, I pulled up, oh. Brad Crowell 3:11  America marks National Wildlife day every year. Lesley Logan 3:14  No, no, no. Don't take this away from me. Brad Crowell 3:16  On September 4th. Lesley Logan 3:17  It's an opportunity for everyone to step back, take a deep breath and think about all that surrounds us. It is inspiring to consider preservation and conservation efforts that work to improve in the natural world, there remains so much to learn, as Henry David Thoreau once wrote, "In wildness is the preservation of the world." Okay, but we couldn't agree more, so let's take a closer look at this day. Yeah, go spend some time out in a preserve near you. We have a preserve near us. Brad Crowell 3:50  We do, it's really close. Lesley Logan 3:51  We actually have the wetlands. And then if we go up two hours, is a really cool preserve we can go camping at, people go fishing at, there's a fucking lake. Brad Crowell 3:58  There's one lake right here, like, a couple blocks from us. Lesley Logan 4:01  Oh, there is another preserve. Brad Crowell 4:02  Yeah, like, literally in the city, this preserve. Yeah.Lesley Logan 4:04  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So go find a preserve near you. You know, I know people like to get mad about the coyotes or the mountain lions that live there. They were there first, so take that in. And second, like it's, there's just something like, it's kind of cool that the way this wildlife that we live and go to a zoo. I mean, make sure it's a good one. But like, take it in, take in the wildlife. Because one, it's going away and. Brad Crowell 4:04  I think the zoo would be the opposite of wildlife.Lesley Logan 4:30  Okay, maybe. But I bet you, I bet you, some of them donate to wildlife. Maybe. Brad Crowell 4:35  I'm, you know. Lesley Logan 4:36  Go camping. Brad Crowell 4:36  They can be well intentioned. Lesley Logan 4:38  So what do you want them to do? Go camping? Brad Crowell 4:40  Yeah, go camping. Lesley Logan 4:41  This wasn't very clear. So I guess take a moment to consider how you're going to preserve the wildlife near you and conserve efforts, like your conservation efforts. You know, can you stop putting plastic straws near you know, water, like the ocean and things like that. The turtles are choking, you guys, so. Brad Crowell 5:02  Yeah, let's not choke any turtles. Lesley Logan 5:04  No, it's so sad, it' so sad. I can't watch those things. So anyway.Brad Crowell 5:07  Our neighbor has a tortoise. Lesley Logan 5:08  Yeah, Tortimer. Brad Crowell 5:09  Tortimer the tortoise, the tortoise, Tortimer the tortoise, and he's like, 15 or something.Lesley Logan 5:15  But he's not even a desert tortoise. He's an African, something tortoise but. Brad Crowell 5:19  Yeah, I can remember the name. Lesley Logan 5:20  Speaking of preservation out here in Vegas, So the desert tortoise is about to go extinct. There's actually we're having some huge problems with them, and have enough space for them, because they actually need flat desert land to crawl on. And then, of course, flat desert land is what everone wants to develop because. Lesley Logan 5:42  Was it extinct, or we're just destroying their habitat here? Lesley Logan 5:42  We're destroying their habitat here. Brad Crowell 5:43  Yeah, I'm not sure if this is their only environment. But, but, yeah, like the the Las Vegas Valley, you know, is expanding. They're expecting something like 400,000 people to move here in the next decade. And so they're, they're slapping together.Lesley Logan 5:53  The lack of rain is not deterring anyone so. Brad Crowell 5:55  Well, they're slapping together all these expansions all around the city in, you know. And basically, they're driving out the they're changing the desert landscape, which is driving away the turtles.Lesley Logan 6:03  And the desert tortoise can't live near the mountains because they don't climb rocks. They just walk on the flat desert. Also, also, I learned this fun fact, you like, they have, they have territories, right? Like, you can't have two male tortoises near each other, and they need to have a burrow during the hot part of the day, and if they don't know the area, you just can't pick up a tortoise and, like, move it to another part of the desert. They got to know where to burrow. So anyways, these are important things to know, and so if you live in an area that's got some wildlife, maybe take it upon yourself to find out what's going on, and your local city council meetings, and who's trying to develop those areas, and yell and scream because it's really cathartic, and you can save a wildlife animal near you. We are we've been recently yelling and screaming to keep Las Vegas loud, so downtown loud. So, you know, it's fun. It's fun to be part of things in the community, to, like, take care of other people. Okay, enough about this day. Lesley Logan 6:04  Coming up. Oh, like now we're actually. Brad Crowell 6:33  Yeah, we're literally en route. Lesley Logan 6:51  So we're in the U.K., by the way. Brad Crowell 6:57  We just we just landed. Lesley Logan 7:03  No, we've been here a day. We're in Scotland today. Yep, we are actually at the very top of Scotland. We're as far up as we can go. And because, that's because we're gonna take a little vacation, we're gonna see some interesting Scottish games, and then we're gonna drive all the way down to Essex, where we're teaching for two days The Movement Base. And there might be a couple spots left in the workshops, and then we're going up to Leeds to teach there on the weekend in September. So this is all happening in September, September 8th, 9th and 10th, and then 13th and 14th. Anyways, it's a Tuesday and Wednesday. Brad Crowell 7:33  I don't actually remember the specific dates, but a. Lesley Logan 7:36  And a Saturday and a Sunday and. Brad Crowell 7:38  Go to opc.me/uk for the specifics. Lesley Logan 7:41  Yeah, and don't miss out, because we're not coming back. Okay.Brad Crowell 7:46  Not anytime soon. Last time was two years ago, so yeah, you know, but yeah, we're never gonna be back. Lesley Logan 7:50  No, we'll come back. Then we're gonna go home for two days, and then we're going to go to Pilates on Tour in Chicagoland. Brad Crowell 7:56  Two days? Lesley Logan 7:57  Two weeks. Brad Crowell 7:58  Two weeks. Lesley Logan 7:59  Two weeks. Brad Crowell 7:59  Yeah, I was gonna say. Lesley Logan 7:59  Two weeks. Brad Crowell 7:59  Two weeks, we're home for two weeks. Lesley Logan 8:02  We're home for two weeks, and then we go to Chicagoland, no, just three weeks. Chicagoland. And the time that we're recording this, we heard it was 75% sold out. It's probably changed, but I think there's, I think the early bird ends next week, if there's any room, and then we'll be in Cambodia. And the time you're hearing this, you've got a month, you can still sign up, you can still buy a plane ticket, like there's still time,Brad Crowell 8:24  There's definitely still time. I'm still having conversations with people, and there's there's room, so.Lesley Logan 8:28  crowsnestretreats.comBrad Crowell 8:30  PS, if you have ever wanted to walk around with elephants, we go to an elephant sanctuary at the after the retreat is over, it's an extra curricular activity after that we love to do, and so we always stay an extra day. And we also go to a waterfall, which is super magical. And maybe that's the thing that you're just like, really that excited, you know, that's what you want to do. So I just want to throw those out there that you can join us for those, in addition to the retreat. Go to crowsnestretreats.com crowsnestretreats.com, and come join us.Lesley Logan 9:05  Yeah, and we're as we're, by the time we're recording this, we're also trying to lock in a day of teaching in Singapore. So my Singaporeans, hello, we are coming your way. And then we're gonna go see the botanical garden. So if you wanna walk around the gardens with us, you can. Then, December is our winter tour, and we're getting a ton of people asking us if we're going to Texas, and things like New York, and things like that. Yes, it's in the winter tour. So go to opc.me/events to get on the waitlist for that because if you're on the waitlist, you hear right away. And let me tell you, when we announce our tours, some cities literally sell out, especially on the winter tour. So because we've been doing the winter tour the longest, and people are really excited about it. So, opc.me/events. Okay.Brad Crowell 9:43  You're not wrong. Lesley Logan 9:44  Before we get into. I know, I know. We went to bed after announcing it. Woke up, two cities were sold out.Brad Crowell 9:50  Two cities were sold out in less than 24 hours last year, yeah. Lesley Logan 9:53  Okay, all right, Brad, we have an audience question to answer. Brad Crowell 9:56  Yes, we do. Lesley Logan 9:57  And actually, this is really for you. Brad Crowell 9:59  Oh would you like to read the question? Lesley Logan 10:06  Yes. Brad Crowell 10:06  Okay. Lesley Logan 10:02  @gp_pilates_studio, that's Greenpoint Pilate studio, hi, Allyn, on YouTube asks about How to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag video. Hey, Brad, what is the diameter, the diameter of the rope and cord, the paracord that we use? What's the diameter of it? Brad Crowell 10:16  Okay. So this was on a video that we made, Lesley and I made called How to Make Your Own Pilates Sandbag, right? And if you're familiar with the sandbag, it's the bar, and then there's the cord, and then there's the weights, and you can twist it back and forth. And so we actually made one our own, and we showed you how to make your own. So if you're interested in that, it's on YouTube. Great question here, Allyn, gp_pilates_studio on YouTube. So, it doesn't matter really what the diameter is. You don't want, like, you know, an inch thick piece of rope that would be just annoying and bulky. But what I used was just like your typical, like, cheapo bought it at the hardware store, nylon cord, you know, I think it was like 10 bucks for 100 meters of it, or something like that, you know, and they wrap it around that little h looking thing, and you just spin it around it, and it's like, you know, I don't know, like, there was no real diameter. It's just the smallest thing.Lesley Logan 11:13  Okay, I found it. I found it. Three-eights of an inch.Brad Crowell 11:16  Yeah, but, but honestly, if you get a quarter of an inch, it's fine, you know, I wouldn't. I probably, like, at a half an inch or an inch thick rope, it would just be annoying because you're twisting it around this, you know, it would, it would become like a spool, and that's just silly. So smaller is fine. The reality is, it just needs to support, you know, a pound or two pounds of weight, you know, so we're not, we're not trying to lift a house here. We're just.Lesley Logan 11:39  I'm pretty sure it's a three-eights of an inch one that looks like what we got. And also it, because I remember, it fits like, right through, if you just drill a hole we didn't get anything fancy.Brad Crowell 11:40  Yeah and I just, yeah, I just took a, you know, a quarter inch drill bit right through the middle, and then I just threaded that through. So as long as you can get the rope through, it's fine. That's really, you know, that all that matters.Lesley Logan 12:00  Yeah, I love it. So you can all make your own sandbag. We did it for the Accessories Deck, which is now shipping worldwide.Brad Crowell 12:07  Yeah. We actually did. We showed you how to build three different pieces of equipment. One was the push up handles. One was the the two by four, and then finally, was this one, this Pilates sandbag. So, yeah, great question. Thanks for that. If you have a question, you can text us at 310-905-5534, or you can submit your question or your win to beitpod.com/questions beitpod.com/questions and we kind of need you to submit y'all so we have some wins to talk about on our Friday pod so let's go. Let's go right now. Pull out your phone, go to beitpod.com/questions beitpod.com/questions. All right, that's enough of that.Lesley Logan 12:50  You know how easy a win is. This is my new win. So, I have been trying to figure I love my I love my red light mask and neck. And when I got them, I was using them really regularly, and we got really busy and and I've everything else, all my other habits were really good, but that one is has just been hard to fit back in. And I saw the dermatologist, and he's like, yeah, my wife uses hers every night. And I said, oh, when? He was like, before bed, and you know, so she washes her face and she use them. I'm like, oh, I can do that. And so I have done it four nights in a row, right before bed. I just put them on my face and I lay there. And you know, what's crazy is, like, I actually am getting some really good, deep sleep, like I'm sleeping really well. And I think it's that there's a time before I fall asleep that I'm just laying there waiting to go to sleep. So that's a win. Brad Crowell 13:35  Like, it's on for like, 10 minutes. Lesley Logan 13:35  Yeah, it goes off on its own. So even if I fell asleep with them, like, I wouldn't want to do that, but I could fall asleep with them laying on my face, and like, you know, yeah. See how easy that was. I just came up with a win on the spot. Lesley Logan 13:41  That's a win on the spot. Lesley Logan 13:43  You can do it too. Brad Crowell 13:46  Yeah, yeah, I love it. Well, stick around. We'll be right back, because we're going to dig into this juicy conversation that we have with Dr. Celeste Holbrook, and also celebratory. It was really awesome. So we'll be right back. Brad Crowell 14:01  Okay, now let's talk about Dr. Celeste Holbrook. PhD, right? Yeah, she's no joke. Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sex educator with a PhD in health behaviors and a post grad emphasis in sexual behaviors. She helps women and couples overcome challenges, heal from shame, and create better, more fulfilling sex lives. Her new book, Missionary Position: A Slightly Orreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture, tackles the complex interaction of sex, religion and personal freedom. Celeste is known for her practical, down to earth approach that makes conversations about sex accessible and empowering and honestly, not awkward. But she's just really good at making it just, it's just a conversation. It doesn't have to be the silly thing. Some, for some reason it's like, it feels like we revert to sixth grade whenever this this conversation comes out, and it's like everyone like, hee-hee-hees in the corner. It's so weird, and it's and you might not be doing it out loud, but you're kind of cringing a little on the inside. She just takes that whole thing away and, like, you know, I mean, it was, it was, she's very matter of fact, matter of factly talking about having dildos in her social media posts, you know, like, oh, okay, yeah, there's that. But, but yeah. I mean, she's, she's not being like, risque or weird about her the conversation. She's specifically serving people who came from the culture that she did, which was, like, raised in a super, super strict religious home in purity culture. And so when she, when she got married, she for, like, it wasn't like, you can't just flip a switch, right? So she was like, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. And then she gets married, and all of a sudden, sex is good. Like, that's not how it works in the body. And she had to tackle that. Lesley Logan 15:43  Yeah, definitely listen to her first interview on the show, because it actually goes into that if and, and I think it's really interesting. I think, like, even if you weren't raised in a super like, if you, if I, if I say purity culture, and you don't think automatically. Brad Crowell 15:55  That doesn't mean anything to you, right. Lesley Logan 15:55  And you never had a ring on your finger that was turned one different way, and you were, like, betrothed to your father until, until someone's picked for you. Laugh. Had that ring, guys. Brad Crowell 16:07  Not laugh. It's like a, it's like a sardonic shudder. Lesley Logan 16:11  Oh, I know. Because, like, we thought that was normal. Brad Crowell 16:13  Totally thought it was normal. Lesley Logan 16:15  Did you read the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye? Brad Crowell 16:16  Yeah. Oh yeah. Josh, Josh something, right? Lesley Logan 16:17  Yeah. I think he's come out and said everything I taught was wrong. I'm almost positive one of the guys.Lesley Logan 16:19  He got a follow up book and then I think he got, like, ostracized from the churches. Lesley Logan 16:26  Yeah, one, one of the, one of the purity culture dudes, and I think it's kiss dating guy, goodbye guy has come out and said his book was extremely harmful, and he doesn't believe that anymore. Brad Crowell 16:36  Joshua Harris. Lesley Logan 16:37  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so thank you, Josh for doing that. But like, for the women who are listening, if you have friends in your life, if you weren't raised like this, who literally were told that like that is the worst thing they could do is to as to at all make a man lust. If you did anything that can make a man lust, you were causing him to go to hell. So you are, like, doing everything you can to, like, not be, not be attractive, and not be feminine, and then you get married, and you're supposed to just be sexy and have sex and, like, make babies. And, you know, Dr. Celeste and many women, they actually go through this painful experience with sex. And maybe you don't have that, but also you don't actually know, and she talks a lot about communication. How do you want to feel like you were never taught that sex could be something that you could enjoy? A lot of women are taught, not taught that you can enjoy sex. Brad Crowell 17:23  I just went down the rabbit hole. He, 20 years after writing the book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Joshua Harris left the church he was pastoring, divorced his wife and made a document, a documentary about the repercussions of the book. Oh, I want to watch the documentary. It's called, I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Lesley Logan 17:47  Okay, well, we're watching that. That's tonight's show. The it's an eye and it's really interesting, because, like, I had a very interesting childhood where I there was definitely purity culture at the church, at the church camps I went to. My parents tried to do these things, and then also my parents would kick us out of the house so they could have sex. So, like, sex was a conversation that they had. My grandparents would talk about how they had sex a lot. So, like, I It's not like I I lived I knew that married couples had sex, right, so, but it's just the reason that I bring this up is I actually think a lot of women, whoa, you good? Brad Crowell 18:10  Sorry, I found it. Somebody pulled it off of YouTube. He doesn't have the rights to it, and so it was on YouTube for years. I'm still down the rabbit hole, y'all. This is (inaudible) online. I went to his own website, and I found a post, a blog post, from May, so two months ago, saying, I don't know why they pulled it off of YouTube. It used to be here. Here's a link to it. That was on a pirated website. I don't know how long it's going to be available, but you can still watch it. So, very interesting.Lesley Logan 18:54  Love him. Okay, we do need to get back to Dr. Celeste. Brad Crowell 18:54  Sorry, I'm focused. I'm in. Okay. Lesley Logan 18:57  So I, I just, I'm really obsessed with what Dr. Celeste is doing, because I just know too many women who, whether or not you had a ring and you're were married to, like, dating your dad, until you were dating someone else, you were not offered the opportunity to understand that you could feel good during sex. Like, that's just very few people. Some, some people had brilliant mothers who were like hippies and like, told about that that is not, that is not most of my friends' experience. So, so one of the things, so, get her book, okay, you'll get her book. So she said American society tends to view sex in binary extremes, but it's rather a more nuanced middle ground. And we've seen this. You can see this in social media today. Like, people don't think that sex and gender are two different things. They are. Like, so, like what you're what you're attracted to, and like the gender. All these there's there's differences, and it's not so black and white, and everyone wants to make it like this is how it is, where sex is often placed on either end of the spectrum, either don't think about it or don't talk about it until a certain age or a marriage. And then that makes it really difficult. Because you know, most of the things, like, when you're a little kid, everyone asks, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? So you have your whole life to change your mind. You're like, I'm gonna be a judge. I'll be this. And you get to, like, explore and take classes and to do that. And when you're in this country, most people, like, don't do sex, don't have sex, don't get pregnant. And girls are also taught it's your fault if you get pregnant and there's something wrong, like you did something wrong. Yeah, if you get pregnant.Brad Crowell 20:22  Well, your shoulder straps were too skinny, that's why you're pregnant. Lesley Logan 20:26  Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you're married. So now you should know, you should know how to do sex. You should know what, what to do, but no one let you talk about it. No one like, it's just a whole mess. It's a mess. It's a mess. So anyways, I really like, that's why she wrote her book. But she also explained, we are not binary people, as far as what we want to do in our sex life. And she said, like, she advocates living in the glittery middle, like, just like, you know, like, it doesn't have to, like, just because you liked it one way, at some point is like, another way. Brad Crowell 20:54  So, just so that, like, we like, when we say binary, I think what she's what she's saying there is, it's okay for sex to change over time. Because the conversation you were having is like, you know, sex is, is different at different stages of life, right? When you're, you know, in your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 70s, like, it changes, right? And so that's I, you know, I think that makes, that makes sense.Lesley Logan 21:21  And she so, she advocates for that glittery middle and, like, also, you know, exploring and, and it's, I think what's interesting is, like, she is so open to, like, helping you figure out what you want. And I have some amazing, interesting friends in this world. I have one friend who, like, has a partner who's a sexual, has a partner that she dates, but they date someone else, and then she prefers to have one other one. And I'm like, like, the 12 year old me is like, oh my god, what the fuck are you doing? Like, that's so weird. And then, like, the person who's like, gone through some work, done a lot of reading, I'm like, that is very fascinating. I don't like looking at my calendar that much, and that sounds like way too many. Brad Crowell 22:03  It's a lot of scheduling. Lesley Logan 22:04  A lot of scheduling. It's also a lot of testing, it's a lot of things. But she looked at me and she's, like, 10 years? Like, are you bored? So like, you know, it's really funny how we all have a different thing and she and Dr. Celeste is just like, advocating for, like, live in your glittery middle, understand that you're what you're gonna want out of your sex life is gonna change, and that's okay, and that's there's nothing wrong with you as it changes. Like, just explore that. And so she basically said you could decide what is best for you, and that right there is like the opposite of what purity culture and dickhead people in this country want you to think. They don't want you to think it's what's best for you. They want you to think it's what's best for the dick headed man they think you should be married to. Anyways.Lesley Logan 22:05  Tell me more about how you feel. Lesley Logan 22:12  Fucking Christian coochie. That's never gonna leave my mind. Lesley Logan 22:36  Yeah. Like, what a woman hater. Gross.Lesley Logan 22:58  That's the interesting thing. Like, I think a lot of, I think a lot of people in that world just don't like women. But it's, anyways.Brad Crowell 23:05  Yeah. Well, I mean, I was gonna say as a comment to that, you know, how do you get to the point, like, the reason I made the comment at the beginning was that it was mostly about communication. Is because, if you have been with someone for a long time, what does it look like to have that conversation of, like, things are changing and shifting in your sex life, you know? How is that? What does that mean? And, like, you know, I'm not talking about like, like, promiscuity. It could be that, you know, but, but, but maybe it's just simple things like, hey, you know what? Like, I want to make it I want to change it up, you know. Like, let's change it up today, you know, whatever, and but the communication is where I think it gets awkward, and hopefully, you know, with your partner, you have the the type of relationship where you can just simply have a conversation about it. Lesley Logan 23:55  Also, I really, am I gonna take away your takeaway talking points? I really loved how she talked about the funny, like the faking the orgasm, is that in your section?Brad Crowell 24:05  My section, no, I was talking about how things changed over time. In fact, I even jumped ahead to it without realizing it myself. Fawning is really interesting, if you're not familiar with the definition. What is fawning?Lesley Logan 24:16  So essentially, like, there's flight, fright, fight, right? And I used to, when I studied biology, it was like, and fuck, like, some people, well, that's like, it's all part of the same part of your brain system. So that's kind of funny, but fawn is like, this, like, people-pleasing, or you've seen it in movies where the guy gets really mad and he hits her, and then she's like, oh, it's okay. Actually, that was my fault. I tripped into you. Like, they do this whole, you know, like, you're okay, everything's like, and acting like, really small and toss out like a little lamb, and then that makes a person, usually a man, like, calm down. Everything's fine. She talked about faking orgasms as a fawning response, as a people-pleasing response, and we talked, oh my, you guys have to listen to this, because she talked about, like, she believes in being honest, but also being kind. And we taught and like. Brad Crowell 25:03  She said there was a difference between honesty and full transparency. She said she doesn't believe in full transparency, but she does believe in honesty, and she said people can use full transparency as honesty and be cutting and hurtful, right? Lesley Logan 25:20  Because, like, because she also has, and this is an interesting thing. If you have been faking orgasms in your entire marriage, it's you can't always just blame your partner, because you never told them what it would take to please you, and so they're just doing what you have responded to in the past, you know? So it's a and I thought was really fascinating. So it's like, yes, be honest, like, hey, I would like to try something different that's no longer working for me. And so then it's not something that you're rejecting the other person or making them feel like shit, and you're also able to then start articulating what you want. And it does take practice. You're right. It's all about communication. It's such you guys have to go listen. If you have, you gotta listen, go, listen. Brad Crowell 26:00  Yeah. And just to wrap that up there, you know, as things change over time, she said, hey, we mature as humans. Why wouldn't our sex life mature too? And it's important to allow our sex life to mature as we mature. It's the most helpful thing that we can do for ourselves. So, you know, I just thought it was really a topic that nobody ever talks about that's really helpful. So, yeah, there's a lot of room to allow ourselves compassion to grow as we grow, right? And then, you know, and that's like.Lesley Logan 26:30  Oh, you guys, I mean, when you get older, when you get older, like, your bones get brittle. So, like, there's going to be some positions that neither person, no matter what your gender is and who you want to have sex with, can do, like, you're gonna have to start doing sideways sex, because, like, you could fucking break your pelvis or a hip. So, like, just start getting.Brad Crowell 26:49  You could break it while fucking is what you meant to say. Lesley Logan 26:52  Yeah, that too. But anyway, so just like, if, if this is a conversation that you are, like, already going, I don't know if I can have this. Read her book, follow her, because the more I do, the more I might able to go, oh, what an interesting thing that I haven't been able to articulate that was really helpful. Thanks so much, you know. So anyways.Brad Crowell 27:13  Yeah, well stick around. We'll be right back. We're gonna dig into those Be It Action Items that we have with Dr. Celeste Holbrook. Brad Crowell 27:20  All right. So finally, let's talk about those Be It Action Items. What bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items can we take away from your convo with Dr. Celeste Holbrook? She said, hey, I've got a four-part guide, and you should use it. And she maps it out in detail in her book, but high level, it's the analyst, the assassin, the healer and the explorer. And I thought, this is kind of cool. And she said, she said, it's like the archetypal woman. So the analyst helps you understand, what are we actually carrying around? Is the are these mental bags full of shame, full of neglect, full of fear, right? And then the assassin is taking what the analyst has found. So this is like a progression, right? So it's not just like you're only stuck in one it seems like this is a progression. So the assassin then is taking what the analyst has found and is just slicing through it, like deconstructing, you know, the, in her case, she's specifically talking about purity culture, and, like, all the baggage that we're saddled with from that kind of a thing. And then after the assassin is the healer who facilitates, like, she helping regenerate ideas about sex through, like, education.Lesley Logan 28:34  Yeah, right. Re-education.Brad Crowell 28:36  Yeah, gentle re-education about what is sex and what's okay. And, you know, like, why do we have this guilt around sex and, like, what, like, why does that even like, there's just a lot of history that blows my mind. Finally, we have the explorer, like, you know where you've kind of, after you've gone through some healing, you're now, like, feeling more confident, more willingness to, you know, be like, explore having sex, right? And you know that could be with your partner, with yourself, or whatever, you know. So, yeah, it's an interesting, like, progression out of.Lesley Logan 29:11  I think it's a cool idea of a process, because it it if you think, oh, my god, I have to figure all this out, or you might hear about the explorer part and be like, what the I you can't even wrap your head around that. It's because you got to go through the process. Brad Crowell 29:23  Yeah, and I think it's great, because it really sets her up. Like, you know, she's she, she jokingly said a lot of my conversations are pretty boring, like, what? Because she's got clients, one-on-one, clients and, and it's not, they're not like, crazy, like, it's, it's not, it's not, like, telling, not story time. She's actually, you know, helping people go through the process that she created here. So it depends on what's, you know, part of the flow that you're in, you know, might just simply be analysis for a while, you know, and coming to terms with it. And then it won't be until you've come to terms with that you can move on to the next phase. And but what's great is that she has a process. And I think that's really cool. Lesley Logan 30:01  Yeah, she also has a couple other things for you, which is something you can repeat. She said to, free to repeat, I prioritize myself by allowing myself to go at my own pace. I prioritize myself by allowing myself to go at my own pace. I think that is so important, no matter what the topic is, no matter what you're trying to be it till you see, like, if you got nothing out of this episode but that affirmation, great. And she also, we've talked about her being like a slow reader and like her writing and all that stuff. And she, she really learned to prioritize herself and appreciate being considerate and slow and thoughtful. Like, that's actually her prioritizing herself by her, not quite I'm a slow reader, but instead going, I am a slow reader, so I am going to be considerate and slow and thoughtful. That's how I do things. Brad Crowell 30:47  Yeah and give myself the time and space to do that. Lesley Logan 30:49  I thought that was so cool. Like, what a, what an amazing way to prioritize yourself is to, like, do the things the way you you need to do them. Brad Crowell 31:00  Yeah and that's like, you know, across any element of life, it's not just, you know, around sex, so I think that's great.Lesley Logan 31:06  And then finally, she said, and this is for your sexual life, she said, where the goal for sexual choice is to be your decision, and not one manipulated by society or cultural values or religious values, and I think that is so important, because even if you aren't someone who is religious, but maybe your culture had a different kind of pressure, or a different way of seeing your body, or maybe you feel a different way with society. Your sexual life is your and choices are your decision, and not wanting to be manipulated by anybody else. So I think that's so important. I just fucking love her. I wish she lived closer. I want to have coffee with her all the time. Brad Crowell 31:43  Yeah, she was a lot of fun to listen to. And also her story about how her book came to be, what a roller coaster. That was, how cool that, you know, that you were a part of it. I think that's pretty neat. Lesley Logan 31:53  Honestly, honestly, like, this is like, you know, like, everything happens for a reason, like how we interviewed him two years ago. Jake. And I forget how Jake got to me. I actually. Brad Crowell 32:05  I think he was connected through. Lesley Logan 32:07  Somebody told no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's a Christian. Lori Harder friend, person, so somebody sent Jake to me. And then. Brad Crowell 32:16  Jake Kelfer. Lesley Logan 32:17  Yeah, and then, and then I watch Celeste stuff, but sometimes she ends up not in my feed because of algorithms. And that day, I just happened to not only watch, but like, actually turn, like, read the whole thing. And I was like, what's going on? I tap through. I watched every story, and I was and I was just like, call me, I got, so but, like, it's just like.Brad Crowell 32:36  Jake. Jake was interviewed on episode 202. Lesley Logan 32:38  But this is how you, you can't this is something for me too, we can't worry, oh my god, what if I missed out on this? Because, like I had I was meant to watch her stories on that day, like I was meant to, because it could have been so easy for me to not pick up my phone that day and not watch them. There was a reason why I opened my phone up and I watched her stories. I do not watch that many people's stories, and it was because I was supposed to see them and introduce her to Jake. That was my whole goal. That was, like, the universe working for her. Universe was like, okay, Celeste, we're going to make sure Lesley sees it, because Lesley knows Jake, and you need to know Jake. Boom, it's done. And, like, she had to write the book. I love it. I love it. I love you, Dr. Celeste Holbrook, I love the book. You guys, go get it. I'm Lesley Logan. Brad Crowell 33:22  And I'm Brad Crowell. Lesley Logan 33:23  Thank you so much for being you. Now. Go share this with a friend who needs to hear it, and go get her book. And go leave us a review, because we really appreciate that. And go be it till you see it.Brad Crowell 33:34  Yeah. And just one last time. Her book is called Missionary Position: A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Sex After Purity Culture. Lesley Logan 33:41  I love it so much. I love it so much. Brad Crowell 33:44  Bye for now.Lesley Logan 33:46  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It Podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review and follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcast. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the Be It Pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day. Be It Till You See It is a production of The Bloom Podcast Network. If you want to leave us a message or a question that we might read on another episode, you can text us at +1-310-905-5534 or send a DM on Instagram @BeItPod.Brad Crowell 34:28  It's written, filmed, and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan, and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan 34:33  It is transcribed, produced and edited by the epic team at Disenyo.co.Brad Crowell 34:38  Our theme music is by Ali at Apex Production Music and our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 34:44  Special thanks to Melissa Solomon for creating our visuals.Brad Crowell 34:48  Also to Angelina Herico for adding all of our content to our website. And finally to Meridith Root for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week, Alex sits down with Joshua Harris to trace his journey from writing I Kissed Dating Goodbye and shaping a generation's view on relationships to rethinking, retracting, and rebuilding his life and faith. Harris reflects on purity culture, faith, identity, and his legacy after walking away from ministry.DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the cast members and guests. They do not necessarily reflect the official position of Christ Community Church.

It's no secret that Cast Members are the heart and soul of Disney's attractions, and the Hollywood Tower Hotel Bellhops are no exception. But how does their etiquette, performance, elaborate costumes, and community make the bellhops truly special?Drop in with us on this episode of Distory with Kate & Kirk as we check into the Hollywood Tower Hotel and are greeted by a living artifact of the Tower of Terror... a former bellhop. This episode features history and stories from a special guest, fellow Disney historian Joshua Harris of the E82 Project, who has special insight into the Tower from 20 years with the company, many of them as a bellhop at the Hollywood Tower Hotel. As we explore the origin and the art of Disney's performance theming, Joshua teaches us about bellhop etiquette, Kirk and Kate try their hand at becoming bellhops, and we gather quite a few fun stories and behind-the-scenes secrets to take with us the next time we enter the Twilight Zone. Many thanks to Disney historian Joshua at E82 | The Epcot Legacy for being our special guest this episode! You can find more about his preservation work and soundtracks HERE.Join us LIVE on YouTube most Thursdays at 10:30am Pacific/1:30pm Eastern for more Distory!Kate's YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@disneycicerone⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠disneycicerone.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠walruscarp.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠View full video versions of each episode at Disney Cicerone's YouTube channel ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HERE ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠OR on the Spotify version of our podcast.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kate's books on Amazon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠WalrusCarp T-shirts & Merch⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠MOWD app⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Distory T-shirts and Stickers⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kate's Substack

Welcome to Season 2 of the Orthobullets Podcast. Today's show is Coinflips, where expert speakers discuss grey zone decisions in orthopedic surgery. This episode will feature doctors Stephen Incavo, Katharine Harper, Kevin Park, & Joshua Harris. They will discuss the case titled "⁠Hip Pain and Limp in 78F⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠" Follow ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Orthobullets⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on Social Media:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Linkedln⁠

This week we will be talking to a notorious former pastor about their experience growing up inside high control religion, becoming a poster child for purity culture, being set up to take over for a large church and ultimately giving it all up, deconstructing his faith and leaving the church. If you grew up in evangelicalism, and likely even if you didn't, you're sure to be familiar with Joshua Harris, author of the wildly popular Christian dating, ahem, courting, book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. He's here to share with us about his time inside of high control religion, what opened his eyes to the unhealthy dynamics inside the church and his process of healing after leaving. It's an episode that all of our younger selves never saw coming and definitely one you won't want to miss! This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

Completing a consumer proposal or filing for bankruptcy has a number of components to it.  Sure, there are “numbers” of it.  How much is owing, what's the impact on the credit score, and all that.  But there is also the “emotion” of it, before, during and afterward. Joshua Harris, licensed insolvency trustee and partner at Harris & Partners, joins us to talk about the emotional side of this process. Find out more at harrispartners.ca and connect on Facebook.

Tackling predatory debt advisors. Superintendent of Bankruptcy Elisabeth Lang tells us more about what her office is doing to address this problem. Then, betting on future events. David Tyler, CEO of Outlier Technology Inc., is here to tell us about prediction markets like Polymarket and explain how they work. Plus, the emotional dynamics of filing a consumer proposal. Joshua Harris from Harris & Partners tells us about financial stress. To find out more about the guests check out: Elisabeth Lang: Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy | Debt Solutions Portal David Tyler: outliertechnology.co.uk | LinkedIn Joshua Harris: harrispartners.ca | Facebook Bruce Sellery is a personal finance expert and best-selling author. As the founder of Moolala and the CEO of Credit Canada, Bruce is on a mission to help you get a better handle on your money so you can live the life you want. High energy & low B.S., this is Moolala: Money Made Simple. Find Bruce Sellery at Moolala.ca | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn

Joshua Harris v. W6LS, Inc.

The Growth Initiative: Winter session dates are January 9th - February 13thLIVE calls will be Thursdays at 7am or 3pm PST. https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/thegrowthinitiativeRegister here for the Free Growth Initiative Masterclass: https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/growth-initiative-webinarGet it All Done Club: https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/get-it-all-done-clubIs your life just too complicated to ever feel peaceful?Check out Katie's Free Home Management Masterclass: https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/peacefully-productive-home-masterclass Grow as a couple and get the couple's package! You can get over $200 off if you sign up for the Growth Initiative and Get It All Done Club together.https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/offers/S3GJdvSm/checkoutEnrollment for the Growth Initiative & couple's package ends on Thursday, January 2, 2025. -Now That We're A Family Print Magazine (2025 Annual Subscription) Receive Powerful Biblical Family Encouragement Your one-time purchase will supply you with four print issues delivered on a quarterly basis (March, June, September, December) https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/offers/FmDoCebx/checkout-Send us your questions for future podcasts! You can submit them here: https://www.nowthatwereafamily.com/podcastquestionsubmission-Books that have shaped or influenced our young adult years: Katie: - “Beautiful Girlhood” by Karen Andreola - https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/beautiful-girlhood-by-mabel-hale/251857/item/8580092/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=high_vol_midlist_standard_shopping_customer_acquisition&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=666157863328&gad_source=1#idiq=8580092&edition=2006479 - “An Old Fashioned Girl” by Louisa May Alcott - https://amzn.to/3BT4uo2 - “The Compound Effect: Jumpstart Your Income, Your Life, Your Success” by Darren Hardy - https://amzn.to/40fuIue Elisha: - “Do Hard Things: A Teenage Rebellion Against Low Expectation” by Alex Harris & Brett Harris - https://amzn.to/4a033kh - “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” by Joshua Harris - https://amzn.to/4j1nUYw - “Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time” by Stephen Arterburn, Fred Stoeker - https://amzn.to/41WenvK - “Sin No More” by Michael Pearl - https://nogreaterjoy.org/shop/sin-no-more-booklet/?srsltid=AfmBOoozH_1ZhXaBVrclkzgtHcEQKVjHrNrlQduEceOsMmIi8K9n8yk_ - “Don't Waste Your Life” by John Piper - https://amzn.to/3Ph8GkP - “The Pursuit of God” by A.W. Tozer - https://amzn.to/4fAFkZe - “Desiring God” by John Piper - https://amzn.to/4fFqssr

Joshua Harris opens about his father, the legendary musician Paul Harris, whose extraordinary contributions to music touched countless lives. Following his father's passing last year, Josh reflects on the challenges and lessons of caring for a parent with mental health struggles. He shares his deeply personal journey through grief and healing, offering insights and hope to others navigating similar experiences. Join us as we explore the enduring impact of Paul Harris's legacy and the power of resilience in the face of loss.

Top headlines for Friday, December 20, 2024In this episode, we discuss the Ohio Senate's recent decision to permit public school students to leave campus for religious instruction. Next, we explore the controversy surrounding a megachurch pastor who created, and then quickly shut down, an AI app version of himself that offered prayers for a hefty monthly fee. Finally, we examine The Walt Disney Company's decision to scrap an LGBT-related storyline from an upcoming children's program in response to growing backlash. Subscribe to this PodcastApple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle PodcastsOvercast⠀Follow Us on Social Media@ChristianPost on TwitterChristian Post on Facebook@ChristianPostIntl on InstagramSubscribe on YouTube⠀Get the Edifi AppDownload for iPhoneDownload for Android⠀Subscribe to Our NewsletterSubscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and ThursdayClick here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning!⠀Links to the NewsOhio Senate votes to allow released time for religious learning | PoliticsKroger, Sam's Club deny reports that they sell abortion pill | BusinessMichael Brown apologizes for relationship with friend's wife | Church & MinistriesMegachurch pastor previews app that offers AI-led prayer, spiritu | U.S.Bible removed from Texas school district due to state law banning | U.S.Joshua Harris posts new apology for 'I Kissed Dating Goodbye' | U.S.Disney's Pixar abandons trans storyline in 'Win or Lose' series | Entertainment

This week, we dive into The Women They Wanted by Shannon Harris, exwife of purity culture megastar, Joshua Harris. This is going to be a 3 part series and sorry its so long but we have a lot to say.

Is there a right way to “go”? Joshua Harris teaches how we are to stay empowered by the Holy Spirit so we can go make disciples.Joshua Harris is a pastor at Every Nation Singapore and serves on the Regional Leadership Team for Every Nation Southeast Asia.

Eliot Shorr-Parks and James Seltzer debate if Joshua Harris has been a good owner for the Philadelphia 76ers. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Philadelphia Sixers President, Daryl Morey, and owner, Joshua Harris, deserve major credit for landing Paul George + the offseason!Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGQR8cWUazHSHfnIzzHEISg/joinDISCORD LINK: https://discord.gg/z9c5cFVGJcCoffee with Brodes Streams 11AM Mondays & Thursdays (Schedule has been a little more flexible in summer time. Check discord for times each week)FOLLOW NEW BRODES MEDIA TWITTER:www.twitter.com/brodesmedia_BUY YOUR TICKETS WITH SEATGEEK PROMO CODE: BRODES FOR $20 OFF YOUR FIRST PURCHASE! www.seatkgeek.com