The Vertical Space

Drone swarms are no longer science fiction - they're becoming one of the most disruptive technologies on the modern battlefield. In this episode, we speak with Serhii Kupriienko, founder and CEO of Swarmer, a Ukrainian startup building autonomous swarming capabilities for drones operating in the harshest conditions: GPS-denied, communications-jammed, and under fire.We dive deep into how drone warfare has evolved in Ukraine, the maturation - and limitations - of FPV drone tech, and what true “swarming” really means. Serhii shares lessons from the frontlines of defense innovation, explains why adoption of new technologies can be both urgent and constrained, and lays out the challenges of building autonomous, coordinated robotic systems in real-world environments. We also touch on counter-UAS and the broader Ukrainian startup ecosystem. 

In this episode, we welcome back Brandon Suarez from Reliable Robotics, more than three years after his first appearance. Brandon leads the development of technical standards and global aviation policy, and this return visit offers a valuable perspective on how the aviation industry has evolved, and in some ways, diverged from expectations. The conversation centers on the implementation of automation in aviation and its operational and safety benefits, especially for general aviation. Brandon makes a compelling case that improving safety isn't just a benefit of automation, it's a prerequisite for aviation growth. He addresses persistent issues like the stagnant GA safety record and explains why relying solely on the pilot is no longer sufficient.The episode dives deep into topics such as the future of digital flight decks, the lessons learned from the rollout of ADS-B, and how these inform the potential deployment of ACAS-X. Brandon also touches on the transformative role of connectivity solutions like Starlink and highlights the urgent need for leadership and vision in U.S. aviation policy. From radically different aircraft architectures to third-party service providers, this episode is packed with thoughtful insights.

In this episode we sit down with Dr. Joey Rios, Chief Technologist for the Aviation Systems Division at NASA Ames Research Center, for a discussion on the evolution of Unmanned Aircraft Systems Traffic Management (UTM). Joey takes us through the early days of UTM development, reflecting on the foundational principles, the initial use cases, and how the vision has evolved over time. We dive deep into the challenges of airspace design, the reasoning behind the U.S. federated model, and how it compares to other global approaches. Joey also shares his perspective on current operations, including the Dallas Operational Evaluation site and how safe BVLOS operations at scale might evolve within and outside of the Mode C veil.  

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for our second conversation with Richard Aboulafia, an insightful voice on all things aerospace and defense.  This episode dives deeper than ever into the aerospace and defense supply chain: globalization, vulnerabilities, titanium, rare earth elements, and why Tier 1 integrators may be losing their place in the industry. We explore how shifting geopolitics, material dependencies, and evolving national strategies are redrawing the map of the aerospace and defense industrial base. Richard breaks down why Europe is accelerating its push for industrial sovereignty, how China's role in rare earths and Russia's role in titanium are creating ripple effects, and what the decline of Tier 1 integrators means for the rest of the industry. We also unpack the promise of Collaborative Combat Aircraft, new defense spending priorities, and ATC modernization. This is a wide-ranging and nuanced discussion on the forces disrupting aerospace as we know it, and where the opportunities lie in the new aerospace order.

In this episode, we sit down with George Mattson, CEO of Wheels Up, for a conversation about leading one of the most recognized brands in private aviation. George shares his perspective on building Wheels Up into an aviation solutions company and what sets their model apart in a competitive industry. With his background on the board of Delta Airlines, he offers a unique lens on integrating commercial and private aviation to create a seamless customer experience.We explore the current landscape of private aviation, its opportunities, headwinds, and the strategic thinking behind Wheels Up's direction. George also opens up about the realities of being a CEO in aviation: what a typical day looks like, how his expectations have evolved, and what leadership means in this fast-moving space. The conversation wraps with his outlook on the future of aviation, including thoughts on advanced air mobility and where innovation is headed.

In this episode we sit down with Chris Gentile, General Manager for Tactical Autonomy at Merlin, for an in-depth look at the evolving role of autonomy in defense. Chris outlines the value proposition of autonomy as a tool, not a standalone product, and discusses the principles of a modular, hybrid, and hierarchical architecture design in building robust autonomous systems. We explore how recent milestones in trusted autonomy are reshaping military strategy and capability, and how the technology must evolve alongside certification requirements and operational realities.Chris also shares his personal journey into the field and offers a nuanced perspective on current use cases driving demand for autonomy. The conversation also touches on the cultural and organizational barriers to adoption, two autonomy schools of thought, air superiority in the age of autonomy, best practices for developing autonomous systems, visual language models, data challenges and startup opportunities.

Welcome back to a conversation with Christian Ramsey, Chief Commercial Officer of uAvionix. Christian last joined us in 2022, and now, almost three years later, we revisit his predictions to see what played out as expected, and what didn't.We kick things off with Remote ID: why it was selected, why it has failed to meet expectations, and how prioritizing low-cost implementation led to major performance shortcomings.Next, we get a masterclass on ADS-B, starting with its origins, benefits, and drawbacks. While ADS-B was expected to revolutionize airspace management, we discuss the objections to its adoption, the risks of partial equipage, and whether it has truly delivered on its promise of improving aviation safety. Christian also highlights unintended consequences that have emerged from partial equipage.We then shift to ADS-B and drones, exploring its role in detect-and-avoid systems, non-cooperative traffic detection, and specific use cases like agricultural spraying. As more drones integrate into controlled airspace, we debate the need for certified avionics and how aviation safety can be improved without overburdening the industry.Christian also shares insights into the FAA's Surface Awareness Initiative, the push for low-cost airport surface monitoring, and broader industry trends in UAS and general aviation.

In this episode, we sit down with Captain Donald Lee Moak, a distinguished aviation leader. With experience spanning military and commercial aviation to boardroom leadership, Lee is known for driving change. He doesn't just talk about change; he makes it happen.Our discussion centers on three major themes: the urgent need to modernize and privatize the U.S. air traffic control (ATC) system to enhance safety and efficiency, lessons from aviation's strong safety record, and the recent rise in incidents that Lee has warned about in op-eds and reports. We also dive into his tenure as president of the Airline Pilots Association, his insights on union and non-union leadership, and his advice for aviation CEOs and entrepreneurs navigating today's challenges.Lee doesn't shy away from tough conversations, whether it's advocating for regulatory reform, calling out safety risks, or pushing for leadership that truly prioritizes aviation's future. From the bullhorn to the boardroom, he's been at the forefront of meaningful change.

In this episode, we sit down with Arnaud Thiercelin, Chief Product Officer at Orqa, for a bold and eye-opening conversation about the present and future of drones and mobile robotics. Arnaud challenges the status quo, urging listeners to think beyond gimmicks and focus on delivering real value to end users. From FPV drones neutralizing M1 Abrams tanks to the West's struggle to produce a viable DJI competitor, he doesn't shy away from controversy. He calls out the industry's missteps and offers sharp insights into what it will take to reclaim leadership in drone and robotics innovation.Beyond military applications, this episode explores the broader implications of mobile robotics across commercial markets. Arnaud discusses the critical gaps in the Western drone supply chain, the challenges of building a defensible company, and the next major competitive battleground in drone technology. He also shares his vision for integrating drones into enterprise ecosystems and the rapid expansion of drone use cases.

In this episode, retired Senior Chief Engineer Carey Cannon shares his 38-year journey at Bell Helicopter, talking about the realities of developing and deploying vertical lift aircraft. He discusses why many eVTOL manufacturers underestimate the time and cost required, why getting in the air is the easy part, and the enduring principles of helicopter design. Carey reflects on key programs like the V280 and EagleEye, the technology gaps he encountered, and the biggest technical and commercial hurdles eVTOLs must overcome. He also explores why traditional helicopter OEMs are cautious about eVTOLs and why few startups will survive the transition to electrified passenger transport.

In this episode we dive into an engaging conversation with Sean Donohue, CEO of Dallas Fort Worth International Airport (DFW). The discussion covers a broad range of topics such as the significant role of travel and tourism in the global economy, the strategies of introducing new technologies in aviation, and the operational priorities of running one of the world's largest airports. Sean provides insights into the complexities of balancing demand and supply in air traffic, his perspective on the privatization of air traffic control and airports, and DFW's extensive capital and technology investments aimed at future-proofing the airport. Additionally, Sean talks about DFW's role as an economic engine, the impact of car services like Uber and Lyft, biometrics in enhancing security and customer experience, digital twin technology, and the potential integration of autonomous vehicles and eVTOLs. 

In this episode, we sit down with Jenn Player, Vice President of Global Aviation Regulatory Affairs at Skydio and a leading voice in the drone industry, for a deep dive into autonomous drone operations. We start by unpacking the concept of electronic conspicuity and its potential to enable a fully cooperative shared airspace. Drawing from her experience flying larger UAS with the Air Force Research Lab and BNSF, Jenn shares why detect-and-avoid challenges in controlled airspace prompted her shift toward smaller, highly automated drones operating close to obstacles - a shift that ultimately led her to Skydio and her mission to "unlock the dock."Jenn provides an insider's look at the evolution of drone docks, their operationalization, and their transformative potential. She also introduces the compelling vision of “zero-to-many” operations, where drones independently handle missions with minimal human intervention. Along the way, we explore the state of the drone market, comparing the civil commercial and defense sectors, and close with Jenn's practical advice for entrepreneurs navigating this fast-evolving space.

Welcome to 2025! In this episode, we sit down with Amit Ganjoo, the Founder and CEO of ANRA Technologies, a global leader in UAS Traffic Management (UTM). This conversation explores Amit's vision for an integrated airspace and the critical steps required to make it a reality. We delve into the role of AI in UTM and ATM, touching on the controversies surrounding its use. Amit shares insights on the differences between the U.S. federated model and the centralized approaches used globally, offering a nuanced perspective on the evolution of UTM.We also take a deep dive into the Dallas-Fort Worth operational evaluation, the first commercial deployment of UTM in the U.S., where ANRA plays a key role as a UTM service provider. This collaborative effort, involving companies like Manna and Wing, informs the FAA's BVLOS policy decisions. Amit provides valuable lessons learned, particularly on UTM business models, exploring the pros and cons of insourced versus outsourced UTM services and their viability.

In this episode, we sit down with Bobby Sakaki, an expert in small UAS technology and CEO of UAS Nexus. Bobby shares his insights on the critical role drones play in defense, particularly in light of their impact in Ukraine, and highlights concerns about the lack of a strong and coordinated U.S. and Western industrial base for affordable, competitive drone components. He explores the challenges facing the drone industry, including engineering, supply chain limitations, raising capital, and scaling manufacturing capabilities.Bobby talks about the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the Blue UAS program, and MOSA (Modular Open Systems Approach), explaining their importance in ensuring secure and reliable drone technology while addressing differences and challenges in implementation. He provides a breakdown of the drone technology stack (autopilots, radios, payloads, batteries, motors, ESCs and other components) and discusses the need for Western alternatives to Chinese suppliers. Bobby also shares insights from his recent trip to Europe, contrasting the region's pace of innovation and fundraising environment with the U.S. The conversation wraps up with his predictions for the next five years in the drone industry, the use cases likely to emerge, and his picks for the top five companies making significant strides in the space.

In this episode, we speak with Brian Streem, Founder and CEO of Vermeer, about his journey from film production to pioneering drone technology in Ukraine's defense ecosystem. Brian shares why he relocated to Kyiv, how he navigates the challenges of building advanced technology in a warzone, and the surprising ways it boosted his credibility with U.S. and European partners. We explore Vermeer's Visual Positioning System, the competitive drone market, and Brian's unique approach to solving problems, starting with listening to customers. It's a candid, insightful discussion you won't want to miss.

In this episode, we sit down with Joerg Dittrich, a leading expert in drone regulations and one of the minds behind the SORA framework. Joerg shares insights on the evolution of drone integration, the development of the specific drone category, and how safety and risk management shape modern drone operations. We explore topics like air risk assessment, drone delivery, drones in agriculture, UTM, and the transformative potential of drones in complex environments. Tune in for a deep dive into the future of unmanned aviation and the regulatory innovations making it possible.

In this episode we welcome Bob Poole, Director of Transportation Policy and the Searle Freedom Trust Transportation Fellow at the Reason Foundation, who brings his expertise on the complex and often debated topic of airport privatization. We discuss the pros and cons of privatizing airports, examining the potential value to various stakeholders, including government, investors and passengers. As Bob explains, privatization has transformed airports globally, boosting efficiency, revenue potential, and customer service in certain cases. Yet, the U.S. remains an outlier. He explores the reasons why, including unique legal and regulatory constraints, and what the implications might be if U.S. airports followed the global trend.

In this episode we're joined by Montie Brewer, former President and CEO of Air Canada, who provides a glimpse into the airline industry from the vantage point of a major airline leader. Montie draws on his experience as a CEO to share insights into how airlines make decisions about their networks and approach technology adoption. For entrepreneurs hoping to break into this space, Montie offers great advice, explaining how airlines, under the scrutiny of passengers, shareholders, and sustainability goals, make or break the technologies you're developing. He stresses that for airlines, decisions are data-driven and focused on clear returns, demanding solutions that enhance operational efficiency and financial performance.Speaking from the perspective of someone who led a major airline, Montie talks about challenges such as balancing airline schedules with operational performance, predicting block times well in advance, and navigating the complexities of IT upgrades. Montie's reflections, combined with his personal passion for aviation, make this episode a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate the airline industry.

In this episode, we dive into the FAA's evolving approach to approving waivers and exemptions for complex drone operations, including beyond visual line of sight (BVLOS), 1:many operations, and broadly airspace integration over the past 18 months. Joining us again is Charlton Evans, a trusted expert in FAA drone regulations, who last appeared on episode #35.Charlton explains the significant shift in how drone OEMs and operators approach the type certification requirement in the U.S. Traditionally, the process involved going through the FAA's Durability & Reliability (D&R) process, which often took four to five years, as seen with companies like Matternet and Percepto. However, since mid-2023, the FAA has introduced a streamlined 44807 type certification exemption process through the Flight Standards Office, focusing on self-declaration. Charlton walks us through this new process, notable waivers, and his expectations for the upcoming Part 108 rulemaking.We also explore the growing adoption of drone-in-a-box systems, particularly following DJI's launch of the DJI Dock 2, and finish with a discussion on AI use cases in general aviation.

Two years ago, we hosted Gen. James Poss to discuss the evolution of drone technologies, their adoption in the U.S. military, and their early use in the war in Ukraine. With significant advancements since then - especially in Ukraine's use of drones - we invited Gen. Poss back to focus on counter-UAS strategies and the concept of attritable mass, including the USAF's major program, the Collaborative Combat Aircraft. We explore various counter-UAS technologies, such as missiles, lasers, drone interceptors, and electronic warfare, in the framework of mobility, survivability, magazine depth and cost per shot considerations.The discussion also delves into the Collaborative Combat Aircraft program, which aims to restore mass as a military advantage. While the concept of "attritable mass" is not new, we explore why it's vital now and how it compares to past conflicts. Additionally, we examine the role of small UAS in the war in Ukraine, their impact on both offense and defense, and how the U.S. is adapting based on these lessons. Gen. Poss shares his valuable insights from his 30-year military career and leadership in UAS development, highlighting the exciting innovations reshaping modern warfare.

In this episode of The Vertical Space, we sit down with Kevin Noertker, Co-founder and CEO of Ampaire, to explore the evolving landscape of electric aviation. Kevin shares his perspective on the industry's progress and challenges, particularly in relation to battery development and the delayed timelines for fully electric vehicles. We explore the differences between battery-only and hybrid propulsion, highlighting the advantages and limitations of both technologies. Kevin explains why hybrid propulsion is seeing faster advancements and why it might be the preferred choice for regional air mobility operators. We also discuss the broader implications of electrification on regional air travel, weighing the benefits and drawbacks of electric, hybrid, and traditional aircraft in this space. Finally, Kevin shares valuable advice for entrepreneurs and innovators in the space.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Rob Britton, Principal of AirLearn, who brings five decades of experience in commercial aviation. This fascinating conversation covers the history and future of the airline business, the significance of the hub-and-spoke model, the realities of aviation sustainability, and the challenges and opportunities for advanced and regional air mobility. Throughout the discussion, we explore the enduring value of aviation, the power of market forces, and the critical need for innovation, all wrapped in a spirit of prudent optimism. Whether you're in the industry or just passionate about flight, this episode is one you won't want to miss.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we're thrilled to bring you a conversation with Jeff Luckett, President and founding member of UPS Flight Forward, a subsidiary of UPS. Since our podcast's inception in 2021, we've featured numerous OEMs and service providers from both advanced air mobility and traditional aviation. However, it's not often that we get to hear directly from the buyers and industry leaders driving the demand for these cutting-edge technologies. Today, we dive deep with one of the key figures in the industry.Jeff shares his journey leading UPS Flight Forward, where he's been instrumental in evaluating over 850 different companies to identify those best suited to meet UPS's unique challenges and opportunities. He reveals the criteria used to differentiate the companies that made the cut from those that didn't, offering advice to any company looking to collaborate with major players like UPS.Throughout our conversation, we explore the crucial role of cargo-centric operations in the future of advanced air mobility. Jeff discusses why he believes the cargo market is poised to materialize more significantly in the near term compared to the passenger taxi market. He also emphasizes the importance of understanding the specific needs of organizations like UPS when marketing new technologies and services.Jeff delves into the operational aspects, explaining why what happens on the ground is just as vital as what occurs in the air. We discuss the anticipated timeline for the introduction and scaling of future aircraft within UPS, UPS's approach to insourcing versus outsourcing, and his thoughts on integrating new aircraft into the National Airspace System (NAS).

In this episode, we're excited to host Srdjan Kovacevic, CEO and co-founder of Orqa. Despite a low public profile, this Croatian team has made significant waves, initially through ultra-low latency FPV goggles for drone racing and now by building their own drones through a fully vertically integrated model. This strategy not only optimizes cost and performance but also positions Orqa as a strong Western alternative to DJI.Srdjan discusses his view that hardware in the small drone industry is far from commoditized, emphasizing its critical role in achieving optimal performance. He traces this misconception to the early consumer drone market and examines DJI's innovation-driven dominance. Our conversation explores the benefits and challenges of vertical integration versus system integration, with insights into its impact on ultra-low latency video links. We also delve into how market dynamics and geopolitical events like the war in Ukraine are shaping the drone industry, and Srdjan shares his thoughts on FPV systems, their modern warfare applications, and future drone technology developments.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we sit down with Libby Bahat, Head of the Aerial Infrastructure Department of the Israeli Civil Aviation Authority. Join us as we delve into what makes Israeli airspace unique, given its position as one of the most threatened airspaces in the world.We explore the Israel National Drone Initiative: its origins, surprising initiators, and current results. Learn about the costs of drone operations in Israel compared to other regions, and listen to Libby's "1, 10, 100" concept related to drone profitability.Discover how drones are used and managed in Israel, particularly in the context of the ongoing conflict. We discuss the evaluations of advanced air mobility that have taken place in Israel, and which aspects are scaling today. Find out what elements Libby sees scaling in the coming years and what he's most impressed with in advanced air mobility today.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we reconnect with Bobby Healy, CEO and Founder of Manna Drone Delivery. Bobby returns to discuss how Manna has not only met but exceeded initial expectations over the past two years. He dives deep into the details of Manna's unit economics, revealing how they achieve profitability with every flight, even when delivering a single cup of coffee. Bobby provides insights into the evolution of drone delivery over the past two years. He reflects on initial assumptions versus actual outcomes, highlighting pleasant surprises, disappointments, and his vision for the future. He emphasizes the economic viability of drone delivery, contrasting B2C and B2B strategies and sharing insights on market dynamics. Moreover, Bobby challenges the status quo of road-based logistics, advocating for a future where drones dominate last-mile deliveries. He also outlines his vision for advancing air mobility beyond drone delivery, offering compelling insights into future industry investments.

We are happy to welcome back David Stepanek, Executive Vice President and Chief Transformation Officer of Bristow. With his extensive experience and pragmatic insights, David provides a comprehensive view of the evolution and future of advanced air mobility. In this episode, we revisit earlier impressions and assumptions, exploring how they have matured over time. For those who have approached this field with caution and realism, this discussion validates your strategy and offers valuable new perspectives.David and his team have authored "A Philosophical Guide For Early Operations," offering a thoughtful roadmap for deploying advanced air mobility. As early adopters and implementers, David and Bristow's insights carry significant weight. He emphasizes the advantage of experience in vertical flight and operations for evaluating and scaling this technology.You'll hear David's summary of the guide, his five-point thesis, observations on health management and flight operational data, the importance of experience in bringing technology to the aviation market, and reflections on how initial assumptions have held up or changed. Link to the Guide:https://d1io3yog0oux5.cloudfront.net/_2417d02d32e4b0be3f7af9f8cd89487a/bristowgroup/files/pages/services/advanced-air-mobility/AAM_Philosophical_Guide.pdf

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! In this episode, we chat with Don Berchoff, CEO of TruWeather, about the critical impact of weather on aviation. Don highlights how weather-induced uncertainty costs the industry billions and shares staggering numbers on preventable costs. He discusses how aviation has adapted to unreliable weather data and the potential for significant improvements in flight operations and cost reduction.Listen to Don's insights on the three key elements for better forecasts and the importance of data. We also delve into the challenges and needs of weather forecasting for drones, eVTOLs, and advanced air mobility broadly. Despite a high attrition rate due to weather, the aviation industry's willingness to invest in better systems remains a challenge. Luka and Peter push Don on whether the industry can afford to invest in improved weather systems. 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and our discussion with Niels Kalshoven, Head of Drone Innovation Program at Port of Rotterdam and Co-founder Drone Port Rotterdam. This is one of the few discussions where we're speaking with someone without an aviation, OEM, or advanced air mobility background, but with experience where drones will be used - in this case at a maritime port, the Port of Rotterdam.Building upon previous discussions with Andrew Hately, Niels delves into current and future drone applications in the Port of Rotterdam, highlighting U-Space implementation, scale of operations, and the role of ports in providing drone services. This is an interesting business model and it'll be interesting to see what type of service eventually scales at port operations. Will the ports allow their customers to operate drones independently with some type of centralized command and control, or will ports provide some type of centralized service? It's great to hear how trailblazers are establishing drone operations, how they justify their efforts and spend, and how they see the real value in return from the operations of the future.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space! Today we're joined by Dan Magy, founder and CEO of Firestorm, a California-based company developing low-cost and modular military UAS systems. Dan's entrepreneurial history includes the founding of Citadel in 2016,  a counter drone company employing various technologies, including radio-frequency jamming to detect and mitigate unauthorized drone threats. As you can imagine, Dan's rich background sets the stage for a really insightful conversation. We kicked things off by framing the counter UAS challenge, highlighting the inadequacy of most technologies developed in the past decade in mitigating modern drone threats, particularly on the battlefield. Dan talks about the founding and early days of Citadel and what it was like to navigate the complexities of selling to the government while responding to the urgent need of countering small drones in various hotspots in the world. We then explore the evolving nature of the drone threat and how this is leading to a sophisticated cat-and-mouse dynamic. We talk about the new realities that warfighters and drone operators in regions like Ukraine are adjusting to and how this is shaping the counter UAS landscape. Throughout the conversation, Dan draws parallels to Firestorm's strategy of overwhelming adversaries with mass and modularity. We also touch upon the significance of product and user interface simplicity, how to ensure long-term defensibility of drone companies, the reasons why U.S. drone companies are struggling in Ukraine, and some emerging technologies on the horizon that Dan is excited about.

Welcome to another episode of The Vertical Space where we sit down with Andrew Coleman, leader of GE Aerospace's software business. In this conversation, we explore the critical intersection of traditional aviation and advanced air mobility, delving into the effective use of data for meaningful insights. Discover how GE mines, analyzes, and provides data for aviation customers, and how this applies to the evolving landscape of advanced air mobility. From discussing the perception of the value of aviation data to identifying specific use cases for enhancing safety, sustainability, and efficiency, Andrew shares valuable insights that shed light on the future of aviation. Tune in to learn how a focus on targeted use cases and well-defined data can drive success in both traditional and advanced aviation industries.

Welcome to The Vertical Space podcast and a discussion with Lorne Cass, an aviation executive who most recently served as Vice President of American Airlines' Integrated Operations Center, and is the current RTCA Chair. Lorne knows where aviation has been, where it is today and talks about how he believes we're going forward in aviation. You'll enjoy Lorne's overview of the aviation industry, airline operations, and the challenges faced by airline operations. Few can tell you better about the opportunities available to our innovators facing not just tomorrow's challenges, but today's opportunities for near term operational optimization. Innovators and their investors should take note. There are so many opportunities for innovators from Lorne's discussion. Starting with where he believes few agree with him on, to the challenges airlines and airports face today, to the requirements of today's and tomorrow's operators, to the challenges and opportunities of air traffic optimization and to the requirements and opportunities for data sharing and coordination in our complex airspace. 

In today's episode, we sit down with Uma Subramanian, a seasoned aviation expert with a wealth of experience in the industry.Having known Uma for many years, we've been really eager to bring her insights to our audience. From her time as an engineer working on F-18s, to doing corporate development and strategy at Rolls Royce, to leading the urban air mobility network Voom, an Airbus company, to being the founding CEO of Aero, an airline catering to premium passengers, from March 2019 to September 2023, Uma truly brings a unique perspective to the table.Our conversation with Uma covers a wide range of topics, from the genesis of Aero and the economics of running an airline to the challenges and opportunities in the ever-evolving aviation industry. One particularly contentious topic we explore is the ongoing debate surrounding Part 135 and Part 380 regulations, sparked by the success and recent public discourse around JSX.Throughout our discussion, we delve into the intricacies of airline operations, exploring questions such as the right strategies for profitable growth, the role of labor in shaping airline policies, and the regulatory structures that either hinder or foster innovation in air travel. We also touch upon exciting developments in electric aviation and the potential for regional air services in the U.S., shedding light on the future of aviation and the path forward for industry innovation.So join us as we unpack the complexities of starting and running an airline, navigate the economics of air travel, and explore the fascinating intersections of innovation and regulation in aviation.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and a conversation with Andrew Hately - a senior researcher in the Drone unit at the EUROCONTROL Innovation Hub in France - about U-Space, UTM, and ATM. Andrew emphasizes the necessity of radical steps to integrate the airspace for UAS traffic management, suggesting that without such integration, UAS operations may not be economically viable. He particularly focuses on U-Space, discussing its origins, current status, requirements, and the challenges in its implementation. Andrew advocates for a proactive approach in designing the U-Space system from the outset, rather than adopting a slow iterative process, to ensure its effectiveness and eventual success. He also addresses the importance of drone detection, categorizing potential threats as careless, clueless, or criminal, and discusses the challenges in detecting noncooperative aircraft.Moreover, Andrew delves into the various technologies used for drone detection, including radar, acoustic, optical, and radio-based systems, highlighting the need for both tactical and strategic deconfliction to ensure safety in airspace shared by manned and unmanned aircraft. He acknowledges the current lack of confidence in surveillance systems for strategic maneuvering and emphasizes the necessity of knowing the precise locations of aircraft for effective tactical maneuvers. Additionally, Andrew discusses the role of commercial service providers in UAS traffic management, recognizing the challenges they face in a nascent market with limited flying activity but expressing optimism for the future of UAS operations. Overall, Andrew's insights reflect a well-informed and balanced perspective on the evolving landscape of UAS and UTM.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for a conversation with Eric Leopold, a long time veteran of IATA, the International Air Transport Association. We start the conversation talking about the state of the airline industry and its current priorities such as the post COVID recovery, digital transformation and sustainability. As most of you know, there are large regional differences in the maturity of the industry and therefore priorities, so we generalize the discussion on bottlenecks that airlines and airports face as the demand for air travel grows and potentially doubles over the next 15 to 20 years. Here we touched on capacity, ground infrastructure, workforce, the IT infrastructure and how advanced air mobility can solve some of these bottlenecks. We also discuss whether the hub and spoke network model continues to be prevalent in the future.  Another key theme in the conversation is digital transformation. What are the opportunities on the business side and on the operational side? And how airline and airport CIOs are thinking about prioritizing their budgets across projects? Part of the discussion is the role of generative AI in the travel experience. For instance, instead of going to an online travel agent to buy your ticket, Eric suggests we might be able to buy , our flight in a supermarket or a bank or any other retail location for that matter. Or we might use generative AI and a voice interface to guide us through the travel booking process, one that is more personalized and more in tune with our individual preferences. If you're looking for an expert and pragmatic opinion of the challenges and opportunities that aviation is facing you're in the right place!

Welcome to our conversation with Eric Watson from Zipline. You can't help but be impressed with the inspiring and important work that Zipline has done with their partners in Africa – with medical and healthcare outcomes that are remarkable. So, you will really enjoy hearing about Zipline and their first platform in Africa – Eric gives an excellent overview.  We then transition to their work in the United States with their Platform 2. We discuss how their experiences in Africa helped and contributed to their US performance. We discuss what's similar and what's completely different between the two markets. Eric is a pro at discussing the US certification process – and he takes it from ground up as if he were starting from scratch. What's required, what has changed throughout the years, what's working well, and what can be improved – and how the certification process is different than what they first anticipated upon launching in the US. He also discusses where there's been tremendous progress in the last year.  In advanced air mobility, there's always this struggle with product-market fit. Many of the players in the market have been accused of having a technical capability and are in-search for a market or a problem to solve. It is entirely refreshing to hear that Zipline started with a massive problem to solve in Africa – and from that impressive work, have demonstrated success and medical outcomes in Africa that are amazing. What it really comes down to is how that success translates into the bigger, yet more complex and more competitive market in the US – where their unique platform two can deliver with precision “on a dinner plate” with almost no noise whatsoever. Listen from Eric on how they believe they can compete in this much different market.  Eric, thanks for joining us! 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and a terrific conversation with John Langford, CEO of Electra.aero. We talked about the key drivers for advanced air mobility, and how factors such as market acceptance, use case, certification, tech readiness, and infrastructure requirements dictate what type of vehicles will fly first with commercial relevance. We extensively discussed eSTOL - its advantages and disadvantages compared to other proposed vehicle types of today. John explains why Electra decided to use blown lift, STOL technology and hybrid electric power. Listen to what use cases they're targeting with a soccer field sized operating spaces. We then discuss Aurora Flight Sciences, from the very early days to the eventual acquisition by Boeing. 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and our conversation with Kara Kramer, Director of Business Development at AeroVironment.  This is a discussion around the evolving role of UAS in warfare, including in Ukraine, the critical role of the supply chain to ensure we can properly engage in those wars, and the recent announcement of the U.S. DoD Replicator Initiative. Kara immediately jumps into the fragility of our UAS supply chain - something we've talked a lot about over the last couple of years, but she says that with all of the talk and awareness, not much has really been done about it relating to our preparation for UAS in warfare. Then we enter a very cool discussion that the outcome of future wars, as Peter says, may revolve around the capability to produce high volume electronics.We discuss the state of the UAS market, particularly defense UAS and especially around mass. How many drones can you produce and field? How quickly can you scale what's needed to maintain scale? And lastly, how would you rise to meet that demand? Kara discusses how mass is achieved, how DoD forecasting orders is the greatest limiting factor and how even large businesses can't invest without effective DoD forecasting requirements. We discuss the impact of Ukraine on UAS and the impact it's having on our vision of future wars.We then discuss DoD's Replicator Initiative and what drove its birth, how it surprised industry, how it will leverage unmanned systems to prepare for mass and how it's meant to address the growing threat from China. Finally listen to what Kara sees as the future of warfare and her advice to you, our entrepreneurs. 

Welcome to our conversation with Dr. Valerie Manning, Chief Commercial Officer of Overair. This is a discussion around the value of advanced air mobility, of eVTOLs and Overair's unique value to meet these requirements. We've had this discussion many times, on the value of the advanced air mobility and eVTOLs, but it changes over time and of course, based on the experience, education and the workplace of the person responding. And so as such, this is a conversation with Valerie that's really worth listening to. We discussed the state of advanced air mobility market today compared to several years ago, the most notable milestones, what's not getting enough attention and the road to commercialization. We then discuss what has changed about the viability and the use case of eVTOLs  in the last several years, both positive and otherwise. We spend a bit of time discussing whether or not there's a real first mover advantage  in advanced air mobility, comparing Boeing's potential advantage in the early days of aviation and perhaps where Overair may have a slow mover advantage as their vehicle will learn from the experiences and the learning curve of the initial launch vehicles and early stage eVTOL markets. We then discussed Valerie's work as Chief Commercial Officer, what the role entails a bit about their go to market strategy, and a more detailed discussion around the trade-off between selling aircraft and operating transportation networks. 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space and our conversation with Robert Rose, co-founder and CEO of Reliable Robotics.  This is a conversation about autonomy. We discussed the arc of automation and, what evolved in the conversation, the arc of safety in aviation from its early days to today. You'll notice how Robert will closely and consistently link autonomy to safety in the beginning, throughout and at the end of the conversation; an irrefutable argument.  He essentially says autonomy is going to happen so get used to it. But he makes the hard medicine taste just a bit better by tying the key arguments to safety. We spend a bit of time on the motivation for pursuing autonomous flight by segment; GA, Part 135/121 with a safety imperative for automation being more required in the former than in the latter. After a few attempts, we eventually get to other reasons why autonomy is needed in addition to, and beyond the safety case. As we've discussed many times the podcasts, we discussed the need for autonomy for many of the advanced air mobility business models to scale, and to meet their financial projections.Robert discusses the autonomous capabilities of Reliable Robotics, and as Robert says, what makes them unique is their ground up designs for automation and certification, where it's more difficult for others to go back and design for automation if that wasn't the original intention. We spent a lot of time discussing the processes required to certify automation systems, and get into a really interesting discussion around the design of their air to air radar, it's value, market size, and why build it on their own versus purchasing off the shelf radar and whether or not it's core to their autonomy focus or perhaps a distraction to that focus.  He wraps up his talk with great advice to entrepreneurs. 

Check out an in-depth and fast-moving discussion of certifying autonomy, next-gen avionics, and multi-core processors with Dr. Yemaya Bordain, President of the Americas for Daedalean.Right out of the gate Yemaya challenges much of today's established thinking on UAM: Listen to what she says is an area where very few in the industry agree with her on – and where she questions the near-term economic viability of the UAM model. And that she believes level 4 autonomy is needed for UAM economic viability – and listen to later in the podcast on when she believes level 4 autonomy may come about. Those investing in UAM should pay close attention here! We discuss the history of automation, the Why of automation, on a segment by segment basis, what has and will drive the need, and how does it scale, followed closely by a detailed discussion of the levels of automation, and the value of each– and why. And how safety improvements are the biggest near-term opportunities in this market. Listen to Yemaya's first discussion with operators on autonomy – particularly commercial operators. The next part of the discussion is a detailed discussion on the future of avionics, starting with a discussion of Yemaya's white paper.Listen how to compute massive amounts of data to meet the size, weight, and power constraints of gravity. We enter into a detailed discussion on why AI needs multi-core processors and the difficulty of certifying MCPs and listen to Yemaya's response to Luka's question on whether or not there can be a generalized approach to certifying MCPs and how Yemaya thinks that autonomy and certification of AI and MCPs will change the existing value chain in avionics.She also discusses at what levels of automation where Daedalean will be generating revenue, and in what markets, including AAM, over the next 10+ years. 

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for a deep dive into the medical delivery use case, or I should say another deep dive into this interesting topic. We've had guests in the past – notably Justin Steinke from Spright – where we talked about the medical delivery use case from an operator and drone expert perspective. This time, we get to hear from Stuart Ginn who besides having a professional aviation background is also a physician and therefore looks at the drone opportunity through the lens of a healthcare professional – somebody engaged in delivering healthcare and intimately familiar with the complexities associated with it.  We've covered a lot of ground in this conversation, starting with a description of the existing internal logistics systems within a large healthcare system, and more importantly its current problems that drones might successfully address. And we do this in the context of macro factors that healthcare faces in providing access to clinical services to rural areas. We compare the B2B medical drone delivery business model to that of the B2C consumer delivery and have a lively discussion around which is more likely to become a killer app first.  The opinion that the B2B medical drone delivery use case is a promising market opportunity is commonly shared in the industry. However, what is not adequately discussed is exactly how this value will be realized, what matters to hospitals, and what the ultimate product needs to look like to ensure wide adoption. Here's where Stuart's insights really stand out. For instance, instead of thinking about drones as part of a transportation system, Stuart believes they should be considered as an extension of the infrastructure, not unlike pneumatic tubes in hospitals today. As usual, we go deep, ask tough questions, and uncover interesting insights not widely shared.

Welcome back to The Vertical Space for a discussion with Declan Ryan, one of the co-founders of Ryanair and a serial builder of low-cost airlines. With commercial drone operations starting to gain momentum and the contours of future eVTOL operations becoming better understood, it is important to highlight the evolution of the low-cost airline business model and learn the lessons from this market. And we have just the right guest to take a deep dive into this fascinating topic.Dec takes us to the early days of Ryanair: how they viewed the market opportunity, how they chose to compete with legacy airlines, the strategic choices and early pivots, the mistakes along the way…and some very funny moments including negotiating an acquisition with British Airways. More broadly though, we discuss how low-cost airlines make money in a highly commoditized environment, the revenue opportunities, ways to remove cost from operations, and the role of technology in the relentless pursuit of operational excellence.Dec has been in the industry for a long time and what you'll hear from him is a sober, unfiltered view of the challenges and opportunities that the airline industry is facing, both today and in the near future. Throughout the conversation, we make references to AAM and ways in which the lessons learned in the low-cost airline business might inform eVTOL operations and drone operations at scale. There are many lessons that the AAM industry should embrace, mistakes it should not repeat, and Dec highlights those backing them up with personal experience starting, running, or being involved in a number of airlines around the world.We discuss many other topics such as decarbonizing aviation, supersonic air travel, how startups should pitch airline customers, advice to entrepreneurs, and much more. 

Check out a terrific discussion with Paul Rinaldi, President of Rinaldi Consultants and served as President of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA). Paul is the voice of today's reality and tomorrow's opportunities. In his crystal-clear messaging, he speaks to “the way it is” in air traffic. And by fully understanding the current state of air traffic, he helps to pave a way for opportunities for modernization – from technology that was already approved and purchased many years ago that has yet to be fully implemented, to technology today that could improve our system, to opportunities for tomorrow as we integrate all things into the vertical space. Thanks for joining us Paul! 

An in-depth conversation with Carl Dietrich, Founder/CEO/CTO of Jump Aero – as he explains everything you want to know about Jump Aero as well as MOSAIC, the proposed Modernization of Special Airworthiness Certification rule – what Carl considers a transformational opportunity. We start with Carl's professional arc through aviation from the Terrafugia days to Jump Aero, including involvement with the Part 23 rewrite and ASTM standards. We discuss the history of Light Sport Aircraft: when and why it was introduced and the significance to the GA market. The heart of the discussion is Carl's context to what led up to the proposed MOSAIC rule. We discuss when MOSAIC was first proposed and why, how it changes the LSA definition, and, very cool, how significant this change could be to the growth of the GA and AAM markets, including  to potentially create a faster path to market for certain types of aircraft. 

In this episode we talk about something that has great relevance to traditional aviation, and that will become increasingly important to drone and other AAM concepts as their operations increase in scale and complexity – which is utilization of the most important physical assets in aviation -> aircraft and ground infrastructure. We have the pleasure of doing a deep dive into this interesting topic with Christiaan Hen, Chief Customer Officer at Assaia, a company with the vision to improve safety, efficiency, and capacity of the air transportation system by bringing transparency and order to ground operations.We start the conversation with an analysis of the process of turning aircraft around at airport gates: the different parts of the process, the relevant metrics, the various stakeholders involved, and the limitations of existing methods used to manage the turnaround process and broadly gate management. As the scale of commercial air operations increased over the past several decades, with the corresponding commoditization of air travel, the pressure on the air transportation system to increase efficiency while maintaining safety has never been higher. Add capacity constraints at airports that are responsible for the majority of traffic, labor shortages, and ambitions to decarbonize aviation, and you quickly realize the importance of doing more with less, and to do it more predictably and consistently. Most of our conversation with Chris is about how to achieve that. As we discuss the benefits of Assaia's solutions to existing aviation stakeholders, we draw parallels to AAM and how this is a market that will require greater transparency and optimization of ground operations – think high density drone operations, but with the benefit of freedom in infrastructure models and technology stacks that are not burdened with outdated legacy IT systems.We also talk about the differences between Europe and North America as it relates to airport operations, state of the market, and willingness to invest in new technologies. 

Blunt converation with Pete Bunce, President & CEO of the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA). Pete combines a deep understanding of established aviation as well as advanced air mobility. He introduces competence, regulatory understanding, industry knowledge, and knowing how to get things done. Listen to Pete's vision of aviation and AAM - there's nothing superficial here.  As you will see time and again, Pete calls it as he sees it. Pete is a great industry leader. Thanks Pete for joining us on The Vertical Space. 

Today will be a different kind of conversation. We, the hosts of The Vertical Space, provide reflections on the intersection of tech and flight that were the center point of our talk at Honeywell's 2nd Annual Advanced Air Mobility Summit. We first discuss why we started the podcast and its success (thanks to you) – then Luka provides background on what has driven the need for AAM, then we together discuss the 4 takeaways from conversations with our podcast guests and from our own observations over the last few years. Hope you enjoy. 

Today's talk is with David Stepanek – the Executive Vice President and Chief Transformation Officer of Bristow.So where we talk often talk to those building vehicles in AAM – here we have an industry leader who is committed to the opportunities of AAM – is confident that AAM will improve Bristow's performance, reduce costs, and improve their position with sustainability. David describes how Bristow has the vision and are a leader in innovative and sustainable vertical flight solutions. Listen to what they project will be a meaningful cost reduction of AAM vs. the helicopters they're operating today – both in reducing up front capital requirements as well as reducing long term operating costs – they believe they can reduce their direct operating costs by 60-70%. He believes Bristow will receive a meaningful return from AAM around 2030 – with a heavier contribution after 2035. He describes how urban air mobility will eventually be successful…it will probably be on a longer timeframe than most are thinking today…that there are a number of risks and challenges most are not considering today…and to scale will be more difficult than it first appears.Listen to the section on where David believes is the most value in AAM – from OEM, to Operator, to MRO, to Infrastructure and Systems – great section…and his impression of where the greater value is may be a surprise to some.As much as David and Bristow are leading their industry with AAM ….he's also careful, realistic, and pragmatic in his approach – this is not just a cheerleader or a one-sided promoter of AAM – he has and you'll be listening to a balanced perspective. Many thanks to David for joining us!

This episode marks a first for our podcast – it's the first time that we recorded an episode in person, and we did it during the Honeywell Aerospace Second Annual Advanced Air Mobility Summit in Washington DC, where the three of us also shared insights on the industry in front of an impressive audience of government and industry leaders. One of the major themes of the Summit was the upcoming FAA Reauthorization, and so in light of that, we sat down with Dan Elwell – who previously served as the Acting FAA Administrator and also its Deputy Administrator – to do a deep dive into the FAA Reauthorization and other important industry topics. We start the conversation with the pilot shortage problem, the structural and cultural forces at play, and how technology can help solve it. The discussion surfaces the currently somewhat controversial topic of the role that simulators play in the “1,500 hour” rule. Listen to why Dan believes pilots should be allowed to accumulate even the entirety of the 1500hrs requirement in modern high tech simulators.Most of our conversation, however, takes us back to the roots and foundational principles of regulating aviation, including an overview of the evolution of the FAA mandate since its founding in 1958. Although not novel, the balance between ensuring safety and promoting the growth of the industry is more important today than it ever was before. We hover on this topic quite a bit and, among other things, draw analogies to how commercial space flights are regulated. Listen to what Dan thinks is one of the most important issues that the FAA needs to figure out, and how what he calls the 737 Max PTSD phenomenon and other factors create a chilling effect on the FAA workforce and their ability to be an effective regulator.

Welcome to our conversation with Damon Vander Lind, co-founder and CEO of Magpie Aviation, a company enabling long-range flights with zero emissions. Damon and Magpie are offering a solution that is fresh and new – a lot of you will be both fascinated by his vision and at the same time find reasons to challenge his assumptions – and you have to admire his bold approach to the market.  Listen to Damon's views on the evolution of advanced air mobility, of electric aviation, and the use-cases being addressed. Damon believes the industry needs solutions that address sustainability and carbon reduction – and that sustainability will become more essential in the years to come. He challenges and gives his perspectives on some of the current hopeful solutions for sustainability, including sustainable aviation fuel (SAF), which many of the airlines are betting on today.  There are those who will criticize some of today's eVTOL companies for overstating the impact of their solution on the environment. With Magpie – and their promise of extended range – they have the opportunity to provide zero-carbon flights to longer range trips. So he's all-in on sustainability – because customers will be paying a premium for the extended range, as well as some additional tradeoffs – and Magpie is betting the greater value of sustainability will offset the slightly higher price of his proposed solution.  So listen to this podcast for a number of reasons, listen: to one of the leading engineers talk about the evolution of the industry; to the different approaches to sustainable aviation and the electrification of the industry; to an informed person's fresh perspective on AAM and the near-term value eVTOLs; and to Damon's perspective on his proposed solution with Magpie Aviation.  Damon, thanks for joining us!