From A to B

Problematic stakeholders could be convinced if they... just got data. Right? Nope. Sometimes it's deeper than that. You gotta understand what makes them tick. Is it data? Is it optics? Maybe you should be running heuristic audits on your stakeholders instead of your website...In the second time EVER, someone else has changed my mind on something. Leave it to "Kingpin" Finn McKenty, who's apparently gone from Punk Rock MBA to Finn McKenty PhD, to change my mind.We got into:- How YouTubers are more data driven than your own CEO (lol)- Why you should be running heuristic audits not JUST on your website, but on the stakeholders you interact with (and tips to do so effectively)- Finn gives some general life advice on learning to let go (important when many product and CROs don't have autonomy to actually impact anything)Timestamps:00:00 Episode Start2:46  The analogy of CRO and "Gym" goes so deep6:25 Even YouTubers are data driven11:20 People who don't buy into “experimentation” just optimize for different metrics than you14:28 Psychology of UXers vs. Product/CRO (Finn low key is a psychologist now)20:01 Running heuristic audits on… stakeholders? (yes - it's a good idea)25:07 Optimization sometimes means optimizing for ‘helping people' (not metrics)30:16 Sometimes, CROs gotta play the politics game35:13 Finn offers sage advice in learning how to let go (CROs need to hear this)49:06 Preach: Samuele MazzantiGo follow Finn McKenty on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/finnmckenty/ And go subscribe to his newsletter:https://finnmckenty.beehiiv.com/ Go check out Samuele Mazzanti's post too: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-SamueleAlso go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/And go get your free ticket for the Women in Experimentation - you might even be entered to win some From A to B merch! : https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-WIE

Do you REALLY know what cookies are? Like really, REALLY know? What about GDPR? What about PII?I know the words. But what do they REALLY mean? I enlisted the help of Eddie "The Techie" Aguilar to help me simplify some of these complex topics, and help me create meaningful next steps on how to address PII concerns and other marketing-related issues in data collection. We got into:- Simplified definitions of cookies, data collection, GDPR, etc. (I'm stupid and like hearing things simplified from smart people)- First vs. Third part cookies (and what it means to your marketing program)- A/B testing and the importance of NOT collecting PII in your testing toolsTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start2:31 What is a Cookie?7:41 How Cookies Have Been Used Maliciously (Lack of Consent)9:51 First Party vs. Third Party Data13:11 Opting Out of Cookies (Explained)14:45 GDPR28:20 A/B Testing and Cookies37:30 PII and A/B testingGo follow Eddie Aguilar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/whoiseddie/ Also go follow Shiva Manjunath on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/And go get your free ticket for the Women in Experimentation - you might even be entered to win some From A to B merch! : https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-WIE

It happens rarely, but somehow Linda was able to change Shiva's mind this podcast. And we got it ON THE RECORD. What did she change his mind on? Linda "The Winna" Bustos brought some compelling conversation to the fact that company CAN differentiate in 'cookie cutter' websites (e.g. Shopify) in really, really creative ways. We got into: - The importance of copy when you're using a generic 'cookie cutter site' (e.g. Shopify templates)- Letting your brand shine through to help you differentiate (including some hilarious examples of how some brands have accomplished this)- Cool trends Linda has been seeing in ecom spaceTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start2:58  Shopify Is Basically A "Paint By Numbers" Website Generator7:41  Using Shopify When Your Product Truly Is Unique9:53  Tips On Stand Out From The Crowd On Product Pages12:40  Mattresses Is An Industry To Keep An Eye On18:56 Shiva Glazing Liquid Death (For A Good Reason Though)21:23  Other Creative/Creative Brands Which Have Done Cool Shit27:44 Make Your Copy Memorable (And Palace Has Amazing Copy)30:30 How Do Luxury Brands Differentiate?36:01  Product Finders Can Be A Differentiator41:03 Do Better Competitor Comparison ChartsGo follow Linda on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindabustos/And check out her website Ecom Ideas: https://ecomideas.com/Also go follow Shiva on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/shiva-manjunath/⁠Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Do product/CRO people REALLY know well? There may be some Dunning Kruger happening, and maybe we really don't get why they keep complaining about our initiatives. Spoiler: Many times, they have a VERY legitimate point! Who better than the freaking VP of Nielsen Norman Group "Checkmate" Kate Moran to come dish all the things we're getting wrong about UX, and how to better work together. We got into: - What product teams/CRO can learn from UX, and vice versa- Why product teams really need to focus on longer term relationships with the customer (and not chasing short term gains)- Amazing (and not so amazing) use cases for AI in UX Timestamps:00:00 Episode Start1:52 How Does UX View Experimentation / CRO?6:51 What Are The Biggest Problems UX Faces As An Industry?13:03 What Can CROs/Product Learn from UX (And Vice Versa)17:22 UX/Product Share This In Common: No One Knows What The Fuck We Do20:55 AI in UX - DON'T (!!!) Blindly Trust It26:56 What Is “Google Gullibility”? 30:51 Context Matters in UX38:05 Shiva Is Kinda Agegist (My Bad lol)Go follow Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-m-moran/ And check out Nielsen Norman's new live online courses!https://www.nngroup.com/training/live-courses/ Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

How many of y'all feel a bit nervous about going to in-person conferences / networking events? André Morys and I have been there before. Would you believe that "Sensei" André is actually an introvert?! Could've fooled me

What REALLY is the impact of leadership in growing an experimentation? And is "stable leadership" something which may actually be messing up your ability to grow your program?This was something I wanted to enlist the thoughts from the "Taco King" himself, Lukas Vermeer. We went into some great thoughts and conversations around building trust, being perceived as a credible person to help you grow your experimentation program, and other important things related to leadership and experimentation. We got into: - How Lukas REALLY built anti-fragile experimentation at Booking.com (and how some parts MAY have been influenced by the ... Dutch Mafia?!)- The impacts of working from home to building and scaling experimentation (spoiler: it DOES make shit harder)- "Trust" and "Credibility" are two VERY important things in growing experimentation - how you actually GET those, well Lukas and Shiva have thoughtsTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start3:02 The Leadership at Booking.com (and how it WAS stable)8:57 Which Impacts Experimentation More? Stability or Trust?14:54 The Impact of Working From Home to Growing an Experimentation Program24:39 Making Experimentation Anti-Fragile (Along With A Fun Lukas Story About It)40:20 What CAN CRO Do When Leadership is Unstable47:29 How to be Credible Without Being Annoying51:03 “PREACH” : Manuel De CostaGo follow Lukas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukasvermeer/ And go follow Manuel on LinkedIn as well! https://www.linkedin.com/in/manueldacosta/ If you like this content, go nominate us for a community award at: https://experimentationcultureawards.com/ Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

"Running a Solo CRO program is easy"- No one ever, in the history of the world Erika Sentz (nicknamed "pancakes" for a very good reason...) and Shiva Manjunath have seen their fair share of Solo CRO programs, and wanted to go into tangible tips and tricks you can take away to action TODAY to help you have less stress and get more done as the only person managing that program. We got into: - The importance of building and maintaining relationships as you scale your program. And how exactly to do this!- Where "delegation" can actually be a core unlock to maintaining your sanity AND improving the quality of experimentation- Communication is maybe the most important thing when you're all alone lol- CRO is like.... making pancakes?! Yes. Yes it is.Timestamps:00:00 Episode Start3:00 The Hardest Thing About Being a Solo CRO8:17 Auditing Your Own Program Is Key11:34 Importance of Expectation Setting with Stakeholders17:16 Erika Keeps Talking About Pancakes21:12 Topic Detour: A/B testing PEOPLE on Websites22:51 Communication as a Solo CRO32:26 Building Relationships is The Biggest Unlock42:09 “PREACH” : Natalie A. ThomasGo follow Erika on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikasentz/And go show Natalie some love on her LinkedIn Post: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBNatalieIf you like this content, go nominate us for a community award at: https://experimentationcultureawards.com/ Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Do people have legitimate pushback to A/B testing? I mean, some don't. They just hate being proven wrong. But there are others who DO have legitimate pushback. How do we address this?Ton "The Don" Wesseling offered a ton of helpful thoughts on how we could actually push back on "logical" (but incorrect) reasons why people don't want to A/B test.We got into: - Pushing back on "not all tests win" without sounding like an asshole- Pick your battles wisely, and invest time in those who WANT to test (while don't prioritize those who DON'T want to test... for your own sanity)- Legitimize their concern. Don't talk down to them like they're wrong, because that doesn't help you, nor does it not help themTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start04:08 Pushing Back on "The Test May Not Win"09:50 Navigating Concerns on Testing Redesigns16:11 Addressing Pushback When It's One vs. Many People (to A/B testing)25:00 Someone Created Your CRO Role - Go Figure Out How To Be Helpful32:35 When "Winners" Don't Affect Your Bottom LineGo follow Ton on LinkedIn, and go nominate people who you think deserve Experimentation Culture awards run by Ton and others! (and feel free to nominate us there….)- https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonwesseling/- https://experimentationcultureawards.com/ Subscribe to our newsletter for more memes, clips, and awesome content! https://fromatob.beehiiv.com/If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Pretty simple to make a hypothesis, right? If/Then statement, and boom, done. I already did most of the hard work in just having the framework.Not quite.A lot of work (and pre-work) SHOULD go into making a hypothesis, so that it can go from a "meh" but functional hypothesis, to a hypothesis that not only drives results, but trust in your experimentation program too! And bonus: Juliana "Run the Jewels" Jackson offers 2 columns / buckets of info you probably never considered which should be available for stakeholders to improve on the presentation of the hypothesis and test doc as a whole. We got into: - What exactly IS a hypothesis (good AND bad) - Why your hypotheses actually suck (and how to make it better)- Going beyond the hypothesis to make sure your test ideas are matching what stakeholders are looking forTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start07:24 Hypotheses Need to Reflect What the Business Truly Cares About12:54 Example of a GOOD Hypothesis20:21 Do Hypotheses Need to Be MORE Tactical? Or More Strategic? (In Their Wording?)27:18 Juliana's Two "Can't Miss" Buckets of Information You MUST Have for Every Test34:31 Shit You Need to Know: Haley CarpenterGo follow Juliana on LinkedIn, and check out her amazing “Standard Deviation Podcast” too!- https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliana-jackson/- https://www.linkedin.com/company/standard-deviation-podcast/ Make sure you go follow Haley and check out her post too! https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBHaleyIf you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Why are we wasting spaghetti? It's delicious! We shouldn't be throwing it at the wall...Well Ryan "Big Brain" Lucht definitely is a big time lover of playing with food. And he makes a compelling argument for spaghetti testing, which delved into conversations into prioritization frameworks, should we TRY to "test everything," and other topics.We got into:-Spaghetti testing (Should you do it? Or nah?)- Pure experimentation jobs are hard. And you'll have to fight a LOT. But Ryan and Shiva have tips to help you on this journey- What we can (and can't) learn from big companies who have mature testing programsTimestamps:00:00 Episode Start02:31 What Is Spaghetti Testing?09:33 Ryan Argues More "At Bats" (Tests) Needs To Be Priority (And He May Have A Point...)19:30 There Are Some Major Things We Can Learn From Mature Experimentation Programs26:10 Ryan Explains Experimentation Roles Can Be Frustrating and Demoralizing (WE KNOW RYAN....WE KNOW)33:44 More Exploration to Things We Can Learn from Mature Experimentation Programs43:51 Shit You Need to Know: David BlandGo follow Ryan Lucht on LinkedIn.- https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanlucht/And check out some of the cool thought leadership on Experimentation hosted by Eppo:- https://www.geteppo.com/outperformMake sure you go follow David Bland and check out his post too!- https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-DavidIf you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

What does it ACTUALLY mean to be "data driven", and are #CROs adequately data driven? Should we be MORE data driven? Are there some opportunities for us to actually leverage intuition more? Will Shiva keep asking Bhavik "The Sick" loaded questions? Short answer? Yes. Bhavik "The Sick" Patel and Shiva Manjunath discuss this pretty interesting topic, which may seem controversial, but there is actually a decent amount of truth to it. We got into: -What it ACTUALLY means to be data driven. Spoiler: the bar is pretty freaking high - Where are the legitimate (and not so legitimate) ways to utilize "intuition" in the CRO process - Your coworkers with domain expertise MAY have a point to override (some) data. As long as it's not entirely ego driven, we should hear them out! To be clear - we definitely aren't saying "throw away all data and never use it - trust intuition always forever for everything". There is some middle ground to be had, with some very legitimate reasons (some practical, some not) to introducing 'expertise' into the conversation IN ADDITION with data. There is always some middle ground

If you squint your eyes really hard, there is something to the fact that CROs are simply Product Managers in "stats" clothing.... right? What ARE the actual differences between Product Managers and CROs? And how can CROs leverage these differences? Or how can CROs work more efficiently with Product teams? I enlisted the help of Matt and Moshe (M&M), the experts in Product Management, to explore more of this (in addition to... MUTINY?!

CROs are infallible. We believe data! We trust science over opinions! We are LITERALLY never wrong, right? Well, sometimes we may be right, but we can still be rude about it.

Are you doing 'strategic #CRO' ? What the hell even is strategic CRO? And how do you get there? Well, Talia Wolf had a post previously that triggered this discussion, so I had her on to better flesh out this idea. If you want to learn how to get from tactical to strategic experimentation, this is a can't miss episode. Plus - we went into some spicy convo about website carousels..... We got into: - What rituals define 'tactical' vs. 'strategic CRO - What is better to start with: qualitative or quantitative research? - Tips on breaking out of the 'tactical' hamster wheel to get you into strategic experimentation Timestamps: 00:00 Episode Start 07:10 Shiva Triggers Talia (Bad Definitions of CRO Box CRO into Tactics) 11:40 What ARE Tactics vs. Strategy? 18:43 Qualitative Data Should Be First - NOT Quantitative 26:41 Ways to Identify If Your Program is Tactical vs. Strategic 35:04 Shit You Need to Know: Carousels... CAN you actually use them? Go follow Talia Wolf on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/taliagw/)! If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

In many ways, CRO and UX have overlap. But how different are they? And how does UX view CRO? We enlisted the help of Victoria Sakal to go deep into this conversation to understand this from a UXer's perspective. Victoria 'The Warrior' Sakal shared some VERY interesting perspectives which can help CROs and UX collaborate more deeply, among other golden nuggets of information.... We got into: - How UXers view CROs (rightly, or wrongly...) - Where UX and CRO actually overlaps (spoiler: they share many things in common) - Ways for UX and CRO to strengthen their collaboration Timestamps: 00:00 Episode Start 02:08 What IS CRO To UXers? How Do Others in the UX Space View CROs? 08:51 UX Seems to Look An Awful Lot Like What CRO Is.... 14:20 UXers Should Embody CRO Principles 17:40 Why Do (Some) UXers Ignore Data? 22:37 How to Talk To Defensive UXers 31:45 There is a Need For A Shared Database of Insights Across UX / CRO 40:21 Shit You Need to Know: Sandip Amlani Go follow Victoria Sakal on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriasakal/)! Also make sure you guys are following Sandip Amlani on LinkedIn - link to his post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Sandip If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Your tests keep on getting blocked. You're frustrated, shaking your fist at the screen, calling everyone a doo-doo head. We've all been there. It sucks. But on the heels of Gertrud Vahtra giving a talk at Experiment Nation on how to help getting alignment on testing by running workshops, I HAD to have her on the podcast to go deeper into this topic. We got into: - Are your test approval rates too high? Too low? What does that mean for your experimentation program? - How to appropriately redirect stakeholders to not disrupt current tests in-flight while also keeping them engaged in the process - Where being passive aggressive CAN be helpful (and Gertrud DEFINITELY approves of this, and Shiva isn't making it up) Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 1:38 Shit You Need to Know: Gerda Vogt-Thomas 8:34 Is Lack of Business Alignment on CROs to Fix...? 14:00 How Do You Balance Many Stakeholders Without Having TOO Many "Cooks in the Kitchen" 20:51 Your CRO Program Management Lacks Meta-Data, Which Impacts Transparency and Trust in Your Program 27:53 Does Your "Idea to Experiment Run" Ratio Need Improvement...? 33:01 Establishing Clear "Drivers" Helps Reduce Blocking in Experimentation Approvals Go follow Gertrud Vahtra on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gertrudvahtra/)! And check out her Experiment Nation talk too! (out soon) Also make sure you guys are following Gerda Vogt-Thomas on LinkedIn - link to her (super triggering) post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Gerda If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Leadership KEEPS ON fighting you on running basic tests. They don't care about data. Your ideas "suck" (to them at least). We've all been there. I wanted to discuss this with someone who has BOTH experience in experimentation, BUT also talking the talk with senior leadership. Of course I had to talk to Nima "The Machine" Yassini. We got into: - What it is that leadership REALLY wants. And why CROs aren't necessarily delivering on that promise (primarily in messaging, not in actual body of work) - Why consultants are somehow more trustworthy than in-house experts (even if they're saying the same shit...) - Should experimentation really just be re-classified as 'research'? Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:15 Common Reasons Why Leadership Hate Experimentation 7:01 Leadership (For Some Reason...) Values Consultants Over In-House Opinions 10:20 Experimentation Needs Cross-Functional Help - We Can't Do It Alone 15:50 Creating a "Culture of Experimentation" Should Equally Focus on "Culture" - Not Just "Experimentation" 21:00 Leadership's Drive for Impact (Inadvertently) Leads to Snakeoil / Lack of Experimentation 28:16 Messaging Matters in How You Communicate What We Do 35:49 Shit You Need to Know: Michal Eisik Go follow Nima Yassini on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nimayassini/)! And check out this article he referenced in the podcast: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-NimaArticle Also make sure you guys are following Michal Eisik on LinkedIn - link to her post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Michal If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Are you burned out in your #CRO job? Many of us are. Or have been. Or continue to be. Or... will be in the future. André Morys (CEO and founder of konversionsKRAFT) and Shiva Manjunath discussed this topic in this episode. We got into: - Signs you may be burned out in your CRO career - André's thoughts on why CROs burn out more easily than in other jobs (and he's 100% right...) - Tactical ways to address the burnout you're having without fully quitting (though... quitting IS always an option) We also got into a pretty interesting debate around using AI users in research for this week's "Shit You Need to Know".... Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:30 Signs You Might Be Burned Out In Your CRO Job (Or Career...) 8:51 André's Theory to Why CROs Burn Out More Than Others (...And He's Right) 15:14 CRO Is Objectively A Tough Industry to Be in 16:38 Other Major Reasons Why CROs Ultimately Get Burned Out 22:17 Your Burnout May Be More On "Dealing with Politics" Rather Than Actually CRO-Related 24:04 Tips on Dealing with Your Burnout 33:56 Shit You Need to Know: Kate Moran (Using "AI Research" - this one got a little spicy...) Go follow André Morys on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/andre-morys/)! And if any of y'all are feeling burnout, you are all free to DM either one of us so we can try to help y'all work through it. Also, consider signing up for Experiment Nation's (free) "CRO Therapy" talks, moderated by the OG certified home Tracy Laranjo. Also make sure you guys are following Kate Moran on LinkedIn - link to her post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Kate If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Terrified of running your first A/B test? We've all been there. While it may be super intimidating... you CAN do it! And we're here to help! Shiva Manjunath and Kelly "The TLC" Wortham. recorded an episode to help you reduce that anxiety of running your first test. We got into: - Asking the CRO community their first A/B tests - Things to not care about in your first A/B test - Some easy, and quick, A/B tests for you to run as your first We also got into some interesting debate around using ROI calculations to calculate revenue for A/B tests in the "Shit You Need to Know" section... Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 1:42 Kelly's First Ever A/B Test 3:51 The CRO Community's First A/B Tests 9:34 CROs are Addicts... For Test Results 15:00 Shiva Gives Bad Advice for CROs 20:53 Things Which Are Important for Your First A/B Test (With Some Ideas to Run Your First Test) 35:07 Shit You Need to Know: Calculating ROI for Tests Results (this one got a little spicy... ;) Go follow Kelly Wortham on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellywortham/), and go sign up for the TLC community - it's free, and SUPER fun. (https://testandlearn.community/). And go check out Experimentation Island, a conference on experimentation in February 2024 (https://experimentationisland.com/) Also make sure you guys are following MJ Smith on LinkedIn - link to her post here: https://tinyurl.com/MJ-FromAtoB If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

How should optimizers approach experimentation in B2B vs. B2C? Is it truly that different, where it's a skillset that is specialized? Or is there a standard process that can be adopted across both.... with SOME nuance, but really you can be an expert in both at the same time. Shiva Manjunath enlisted the help of Carlos "The Selfie King" Trujillo, who JUST taught a course on CRO for Ecommerce Growth, to discuss this. We netted out basically saying "there aren't any major differences in process." However, there are some nuances worth exploring which can strengthen how you approach B2B vs B2C in CRO, specifically around psychology of users, differences in metrics (and test success), and research methods used. If you listen to the whole episode, I drop an exclusive promo code for a hefty amount of $$$ off a ticket for EXL. (Disclaimer: I get no kickbacks or dollars for anyone who uses the code - I just want to meet as many certified homies at EXL! Plus, if you come, you can get a selfie with the selfie king himself!) Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:55 Exploration of Process for B2B vs B2C 11:32 One Major Difference in CRO for B2B v s B2C 16:06 The Definition of "CRO" Is Important to the Conversation 20:34 Solutions for Problems May Be The Differentiation 29:29 Listener Question : James Carbary (plus other discussion related to CRO in B2B vs B2C) Go follow Carlos Trujillo on Linkedin, and check out his course taught at CXL (https://cxl.com/institute/online-course/cro-for-ecommerce/) Also make sure you guys are following James Carbary on LinkedIn - link to his post here: https://tinyurl.com/JamesAtoB If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Knowing the job market is hard as hell recently, Shiva Manjunath decided to enlist the help of Ben "The Zen" Labay, CEO at Speero, to help you nail that CRO interview. Ben Labay has a TON of experience hiring at Speero - he even hired Shiva at some point, which he quoted as "my best hire at Speero ever." They discussed a number of things, including: CROs should present as product owners, discuss the things you've shipped as much as possible, and demonstrate critical thinking as best as you can during the process of interviewing (especially in any CRO case studies you discuss). Even though we all hate Ben, we can't deny he says some smart things sometimes. Thankfully every smart thing he's ever said, I captured in this episode. Plus, if you listen to the whole episode, I drop an exclusive promo code for a hefty amount of $$$ off a ticket for EXL, courtesy of Ben. Disclaimer: I get no kickbacks or dollars for anyone who uses the code - I just want to meet as many certified homies at EXL! Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:22 What Does a Hiring Manger Want to Learn About You in the Interview? 10:05 Don't Be Afraid to Ask About the Day-to-Day Responsibilities 15:57 Ben Describes the Differences Between A Players, B Players, and C Players 24:46 Tips For CROs to Explain Their Process to Hiring Managers 37:17 Listener Question : Trina Moitra Go follow Ben Labay on LinkedIn, and check out some awesome blueprints on the Speero website to learn more about experimentation things. Also make sure you guys are following Trina Moitra on LinkedIn - she's a certified homie!!! If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Slobodan "The Maniac" Manić joined Shiva to rap about snakeoil in CRO. From understanding the importance of process-focused methodologies, recognizing red flags in case studies, and emphasizing research over results, this episode equips you with the tools needed to avoid being deceived by CRO scams. This is important, because many times people will call themselves 'CROs' and, unfortunately, it ends up cheapening our reputation when bad faith actors use our name to peddle bullsh*t. Slobodan is the homie, and this was a banger podcast. Vibes were immaculate. Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:27 What IS Snakeoil...? 5:14 Snakeoil in CRO Case Studies 8:39 Are "Guarantees" Bad? 11:48 Fixation on "Micro" vs "Macro" Metrics Can Be Problematic 21:35 Detecting Snakeoil in CRO Agencies 38:22 Shit You Should Know : Tim Mehta Go follow Slobodan on LinkedIn, and subscribe to his show at https://www.nohacks.show/ Also make sure you guys are following Tim Mehta on LinkedIn - he posts great content! If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured too!

Erin "All She Does Is Win" Weigel joined Shiva to discuss UX principles / UX patterns, and how close they can be to supposed "best practices." Erin gave some pretty helpful tips on how to properly extrapolate UX patterns, and where they have downsides, but how you can still use them properly to optimize user experiences. Erin doesn't like playing by ANYBODY'S rules... so be forewarned. Vibes were immaculate in this one. Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 7:25 "Patterns" Can Stifle Innovation In Many Cases 11:18 What is "Simple" Can Be Subjective 17:04 Erin Explains the Hierarchy of Evidence (And Why 'Best Practices' Are the Lowest Form of Quality) 27:34 Good UX Is Only Determined By Your Users (Not Anyone Else) 35:20 Shit You Should Know (Listener Question!): Sam Barber Go follow Erin on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/erindoesthings/ ) - and go buy her book (https://erindoesthings.com/design-for-impact/) If you have listener questions, submit them at https://tinyurl.com/askfromatob for a chance to be featured like the OG Certified Homie Sam Barber!

Gerda "The Koala" Vogt-Thomas joined Shiva to discuss a number of things related to politics in CRO and experimentation. A number of politic-related things are discussed, including in-house vs. agency-side politicking, and even removing "emotion" from the decision-making process to help get more buy in / reduce your own personal stress in CRO. Also, Shiva somehow comes up with an analogy that CRO is like Jenga... and it low-key kinda works? Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 2:26 Gerda's background and journey to Koalatative 7:46 Differences in politics between in-house vs. agency 19:07 All stakeholders are babies, and we should treat them as such 27:54 Shit You Should Know: Hristian Kambourov Go follow Gerda on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerda-vogt-thomas/) - and check out her company, Koalatative (https://koalatative.com/) And go check out Hristian Kambourov's post: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Hristian

Are CROs secretly just growth marketers? Maybe... but how do they work better with growth marketers? Shiva decided to understand this better by talking to marketing expert, and head of Demand Gen at Chili Piper, Tara "Ice Spice" Robertson. In this episode, we discuss some pretty tactical activities on what makes Growth Marketers tick, and what things they care about (or don't care about). In addition, we look at things that are important to them, and how CROs can work better to solve their problems and create lasting, and fruitful, relationships with demand gen marketers. Plus, Tara shares maybe the worst test idea Shiva's ever heard of. This was a banger episode. Timestamps: 00:00 Start of Episode 3:25 Tara's experience with CROs 11:06 Growth Marketer's perception of CROs 13:09 How to build trust with Growth Marketers 24:22 The worst test idea ever 28:33 Shit You Should Know: Emily Kramer Go follow Tara on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/taraarobertson/) - she posts A+++ content! And go check out Emily Kramer's post: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Emily

Sam "The SEO Guy" and Shiva Manjunath discuss all things SEO and content in this episode of From A to B. Why is it that SEOs and CROs are fighting for resources... when in reality, they should be SHARING resources under a shared goal! In addition, they discuss things why page intent matters, and how CROs should be focused on this just as much as SEOs. Timestamps: 00:00 Show Kickoff 3:37 SEO and CRO Overlap 10:37 Search Intent and Page Purpose 18:10 Why Do SEOs and CROs Hate Eachother 24:15 Tips on SEO/CRO Collaborating 34:12 AI and SEO - Do They Play Nicely? Go check out everything Sam does on his website, (https://www.breakingb2b.com/) and go check out his podcast (https://open.spotify.com/show/1rJ7NqYMMsULgeIN9rjdG0)

In this episode of 'From A to B,' Shiva Manjunath and Stewart “The GOAT” Ehoff discuss how hard as hell it is to build CRO programs from scratch. They delve into the challenges faced by organizations at various stages, from initiating the first test to scaling up to 30 tests and beyond. They explore factors like company culture, data infrastructure, trust in the program, and resource allocation. Timestamps: 00:00 Show Kickoff 06:36 Community Insights on Experimentation Challenges 18:18 The Reality of Experimentation in Different Company Sizes 22:18 The Challenge of Establishing a Culture of Experimentation 23:38 Debating the Hardest Part of Experimentation: From 0 to 1 vs. Scaling Beyond 29:33 Building Trust and Overcoming Cultural Barriers in Experimentation 39:47 Tactical Advice for Removing Roadblocks in Experimentation Major shoutout to the CRO community for providing their thoughts on this topic: Eddie Aguilar, Ton Wesseling, Slobodan Manic, Kelly Wortham, Merrit Aho, Kelly Sable, Jenn Kunz, Will Feng, Mariana Bonanomi Make sure you're following all of them on LinkedIn, including Stewart!!!

Shiva hosts "Kingpin" Finn McKenty, a YouTuber with over 700,000 subscribers and 120 million views, to discuss the effective use of video in website optimization. Finn has extensive experience in product, but also knows how to geek it up with other CROers. Finn and Shiva discuss a number of topics, including how to track video success/quality on website, in addition to actually utilizing video properly. (00:00) Episode Start (5:35) What KPIs should we look at to determine video quality? (11:54) Video wrappers need to do a better job of 'setting expectations' to improve their success (19:11) Why can't B2B companies actually have fun in their marketing? (28:10) Shit You Need to Know (Saeed K. ) Go check out Finn's website here to get in contact with : https://www.finnmckenty.com/ And go check out Saeed K.'s post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBSaeed

Are "best practices" in experimentation and CRO overrated? Or is there a legitimate use case for them? Talia "The wolf" Wolf and Shiva Manjunath discuss where 'best practices' fail, but also where can perhaps 'good' practices be utilized properly. In addition, are 'best practices' going the opposite direction of 'personalization'? This episode was a banger. (00:00) Episode Start (2:45) What IS a "best practice"? (8:40) Why do "best practices" exist? (13:04) Are 'Shopify templates' just 'best practices'? Are they even valuable? (23:15) Are 'best practices' anti-personalization? (28:33) Shit You Need to Know (Moe Ali) Go check out Talia's company here: https://getuplift.co/ Go check out all the CRO best practices here: https://crobestpractices.com/ And go check out Moe Ali's post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBMoe

Shawn "The Brawn" David joins Shiva to discuss all things bots in CRO and Experimentation. Specifically, what exactly is the difference between AI and Automation, what is exaggerated in AI/CRO, and where can we intelligently use the bots to give CROs' exoskeletons'. Plus, what are some red flags in vendors who sell AI CRO, and how to suss out if their tools are legit, or shit. (00:00) Episode Start (04:39) Exploring the Limits and Potential of AI in CRO (13:05) AI in CRO - What is Hype, What is Reality? (20:27) Harnessing AI for Efficiency, Not Replacement (34:07) Shit You Need to Know (Chad Sanderson) Go check out Shawn's company here: https://automatetowin.com/ Go check out all the CRO best practices here: https://crobestpractices.com/ And go check out Chad Sanderson's post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBChad

In this episode, Shiva and Eden Bidani discuss copy. Is it important? Yes. Yes it is. But specifically, they discuss bad examples of copy, the importance of differentiation in copy, and avoiding ways to use buzzwords and improve on clarity within CRO / copywriting. Plus, Eden gives an example of using ChatGPT for copywriting which legitimately leaves Shiva speechless (not clickbait - legitimately happened). 00:00 - Episode Start01:50 - Fun Examples of Bad Copy07:13 - The Role of Experimentation in Copy Optimization 18:35 - The Emotional Impact of Copy 22:20 - Eden Defends Her Stance of "Too Much Data Can Be Bad"29:05 - Shit You Need to Know (David Gerhardt) Go check out Eden on LinkedIn here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/edenbidani/ And go check out Dave's post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBDave

In this episode of From A to B, Shiva and Els "Bells" Aerts explore the balance between conducting research and running A/B tests in optimization efforts. Not everything SHOULD be tested, and in fact, research can play a critical role in companies trying to improve on their site optimization when testing isn't available, due to cost, or traffic volume. Finally, they discuss in this weeks "Shit You Need to Know" section... usability testing with older adults, emphasizing the importance of accessibility and consideration for various user demographics in optimization strategies.00:00 Episode Start03:40 The Role of Research in A/B Testing07:13 The Importance of Understanding Your Audience12:38 The Role of Stakeholders in Testing24:23: Shit You Need to Know (Nielsen Norman Group) This weeks "shit you need to know" comes courtesy of the Nielsen Norman Group - check out the link to their post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-NN

In the episode, Shiva and Bhavik "The Sick" Patel discuss prioritization frameworks. Theoretically, they are a fantastic mechanism for ensuring you have a testing program which focuses on high ROI tests - especially when resources are limited. However, they do have some drawbacks worth discussing, including subjectivity in scoring. 00:00 Episode Start02:30 The Role of Effort in Prioritization03:01 The Need for Objectivity in Prioritization12:38 The Importance of Flexibility in Prioritization17:01 Using Prioritization Frameworks to Prove HiPPOs wrong20:37 Shit You Need to Know (Ben Labay) This week's "Shit You Need to Know" comes courtesy of Ben Labay - check out his post here! http://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBBen

In this episode, Shiva has David 'Zedd' Mannheim to discuss personalization, and how 'stages' (user's intent) is more important than optimizing for pages on your website. Plus, David has a spicy take on "social proof" ... 00:00 Introduction 02:08 Concept of 'Stages not Pages' 10:38 Social proof is... not good? 21:38 Optimizing for Users vs Pages 22:51 LinkedIn Post of the Week (Eden Bidani) Check out Eden's post here! http://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Eden And check out David Mannheim's cool shit: Made with Intent (his company), "The person in Personalisation" (his book), and go follow him on LinkedIn!

In this episode, Shiva and Juliana discuss how to break into the field of experimentation, the importance of understanding experimentation principles, and the value of critical thinking in the process. They also share tips for product owners and engineers who want to start testing and experimenting with small changes without disrupting the entire website. Juliana has some EXCELLENT tips for little ways you can test without breaking your site entirely, which is great for actually breaking into testing! Timestamps: 00:00 Show Kickoff 01:57 Juliana's Professional Path 02:44 Understanding Experimentation 12:51 Tips on Running Smaller Scale Tests (without fucking up your site) 22:58 LinkedIn Post of the Week (Ryan Thomas) This week's LinkedIn Post of the Week is brought to you by Ryan Thomas - check out his spicy post here: http://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-RyanThomas Be sure to follow Juliana and her dope podcast at Standard Deviation Podcast and her marketing blog at https://juliana-jackson.com/

In this episode, Shiva and Erin "All She Does Is Win" Weigel discuss different kinds of designers (Designers vs designers... apparently there is a difference), and gives you a glimpse into the mindset of a designer so you can understand how better to collaborate with them. Also her dog interrupts the show but we are ok with this because dogs are awesome. Timestamps: 00:00 Show Kickoff02:39 Understanding designer's Mindset11:01 What makes a designer tick?12:44 Erin's dog disrupts the show21:42 How to work with a bad designer24:54 LinkedIn Post of the Week (Els Aerts) This week's LinkedIn Post of the Week is brought to you by the awesome Els Aerts. Check out her post here: http://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-ElsAerts And check out Erin doing things at https://erindoesthings.com/

In this episode, Shiva and Rommil "The Thrill' Santiago dive deep into the state of salaries based on the latest report coming out of Experiment Nation, in addition to giving y'all some ideas and thoughts on how to make sure you're getting paid fairly! 02:29 Discussing the Experimentation Salary Report08:06 Job Title vs. Salary Satisfaction19:13 Tips on Getting Your Bag22:03 LinkedIn Post of the Week This week's LinkedIn Post of the Week is brought to you by Avinash Kaushik (who actually coined the term HiPPO - fun fact). Check out his post here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBAvinash And check out the Experiment Nation Salary Report here: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-EN-Salary

Website redesigns are the literal worst. They'll happen whether you like it or not, and chances are you still have to clean up the mess if/when they go wrong. Here's how to prepare for (and test) a redesign and still sleep at night. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 03:47 Legit vs. shit reasons to redesign your site 07:54 The first things you must do before a site redesign 18:50 The redesign went live... now what? 28:02 LinkedIn Post of the Week Still freaking out about how to handle redesigns without losing your mind? See Tracy discuss this in the VWO Webinar "How to Survive a Redesign Fail": https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBVWOTracy The LinkedIn post of the week is from Kyle Hearnshaw: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBKyle Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the 4D chess masters are doing it.

This spooky season we ask one question literally nobody has asked before: Can your CRO skillsets save you from a zombie apocalypse? In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:41 Can CROs survive the zombie apocalypse? 03:13 The first things a CRO would do to survive 09:11 Experimentation and data weapons for survival 18:29 The verdict: Do CROs survive the zombie apocalypse? 21:15 Guess the most (and least) popular Halloween candy with us Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the cool zombies are doing it.

Browse your LinkedIn feed for 10 minutes and we guarantee you'll find advice encouraging you to copy so-and-so's website. Because if they're doing something, it must work... right? Not quite. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 04:05 What's the harm in blindly copying your competitors? 05:57 Shiva burps 06:08 What's the harm in blindly copying your competitors? (continued) 09:23 How to 'watch' competitors instead of flat-out copying 23:59 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Tom Collver: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBTom Like what you hear? Subscribe. Even your competitors are doing it. This is the only time we recommend copying them.

Working with clients can be a rollercoaster ride, but what happens when you find yourself strapped in with a nightmare client? We'll relive the trauma and give you things to think about, so (hopefully) you don't have to. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:05 Why it's important to spot client red flags ASAP 05:05 Signs you're working with a client from hell 15:23 How to protect yourself from client woes 21:08 Going nuclear: What if you can't walk away from the client? 24:22 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from David Hamill: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBDavidH Like what you hear? Subscribe. Even your favorite client is doing it.

Reviews, ratings, testimonials, user-generated content... we've seen ENOUGH already! We've all been told in Marketing 101 that you NEED social proof. When does it become overkill in your digital marketing program though? In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:20 Social proof is great... sometimes 06:11 The need for authentic and creative social proof 10:02 Is social proof a bandaid fix for conversion issues? 16:16 How to do (and test) social proof right 18:11 The verdict: Is social proof awesome or overrated? 19:03 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Mariya Delano: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBMariya Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the (totally legit) 5-star raters are doing it.

We'll put money on the fact that you've had your fair share of decision-makers who couldn't care less about user research. You know research is important. But how do you get THEM to see the light? In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 01:51 Signs leadership doesn't care about research 04:55 WHY research fails to get taken seriously 10:27 The consequences of ignoring research 13:36 What to do about research-allergic leaders 22:32 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Nima Yassini: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBNima Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the fed-up user researchers are doing it. A special shoutout to these folks who shared their tell-tale signs that leadership doesn't take research seriously: Anthony Wallace Melanie Kyrklund Simon Girardin Els Aerts

Experimentation is slow. It's what people keep telling us. And you know what? They kind of have a point. Isn't it better to go 'slow' in the right direction (in the short term) instead of fast in the wrong direction, though? In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:23 Experimentation can be slow (in the short term) - and that's ok! 09:31 Is your program slow? Or is it you? 11:26 Stop striving for pixel perfection 14:04 How to build faster processes without losing your soul 20:06 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from David Pereira: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBDavid Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the failed-doctors-turned-experimenters are doing it. Ahem, Shiva.

9/10 pasta makers agree on this one simple fact.* Throwing shit at the wall is fine at a food fight, but a no-no in your testing program. The cure? Iterative testing. It's like a pressure washer for your wall, cleaning up the mess you made from all that janky spaghetti testing.  In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:12 Iterative vs. spaghetti testing 03:35 Research is pointless if you don't act on it 07:52 How to tell if you're spaghetti testing 10:27 Practice makes perfect 20:28 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Devansh Sharma: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBDevansh Like what you hear? Subscribe. Even Chef Freakin' Boyardee is doing it. *Don't quote us on this one.

Technical marketing and analytics extraordinaire Juliana Jackson has seen a lot of shitty marketing. She joins us to explore a big question with some surprising answers: Is segmenting your audience by gender sexist? In this episode, Tracy and Juliana discuss: 00:00 Intro 05:03 Deconstructing 'segmentation' and 'sexism' 06:39 We self-segment all the time without knowing it 09:00 Humans are complex; so why do we love labels? 10:38 Representation beyond 'the average man' 20:55 How to not be a lazy marketer 27:15 LinkedIn Post of the Week Connect with Juliana on LinkedIn and follow her podcast Standard Deviation for more hot takes: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBJulianaJ The LinkedIn post of the week is from Nneka Otika: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBNneka Shoutout to Women Techmakers, a community that does inclusivity right: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBWTM Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the reformed lazy marketers are doing it.

Nobody wants to work (shitty jobs) anymore! We think that's pretty great. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva help you spot a crappy CRO/experimentation job by learning from our many job-hunting mistakes. We cover: 00:00 Intro 02:42 Job hunting kind of sucks 05:11 Red flags in the job description 13:22 Red flags in the interview 21:21 Wrapping it up all 24:08 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Ruben De Boer: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBRubenDB Find some additional support for your job hunt with these resources: Experiment Nation CRO Salary Report: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-ENsalaryreport More red flags shared by the community: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoB-Redflags Like what you hear? Subscribe. Even the people who live under a rock are doing it.

Shiva started drama on LinkedIn the other day in a (seemingly innocuous) post arguing that "bug fixes are not experimentation". Let's just say the comments got lit and we want to talk about it. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva explore: 00:00 Intro 02:45 The LinkedIn drama that started it all 03:56 Differentiating bugs vs. bad UX 06:08 Why most of us don't have the luxury of testing bugs 13:37 Why WOULD you test a bug fix? 19:25 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Daphne Tideman: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBDaphne Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the people who have colds right now are doing it.

You just started a new testing program and the execs expect wins NOW (well, they expected results before your first day, but will settle for now). Where do you go from here? In this episode, Tracy plays the 'devil's advocate' in a new segment (we're beta testing...), where one of us is forced to steelman the opposite position. In this case, Tracy (fantastically) played the annoying, win-obsessed exec. In less than 30 minutes we cover: 00:00 Intro 03:41 Learnings don't pay the bills, right? 06:29 Won't testing-to-learn take a while to get results? 08:02 My buddy says this hack made them millions 09:23 Are learnings a scam to distract me from crap results? 16:33 Putting it all together 22:02 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Carlos Trujillo: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBCarlos Like what you hear? Subscribe. Even the executive who wanted a win yesterday has done it.

What do websites and toilet paper have in common? You can tear them down and sometimes those teardowns are full of shite. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 03:28 What's a website teardown? 05:23 Why do marketers love teardowns so much? 07:28 How teardowns can be kinda bullshit 10:56 How to use a teardown responsibly 17:27 The verdict: Awesome or overrated? 19:20 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Gerda Vogt-Thomas: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBGerda Like what you hear? Subscribe. Apparently a bunch of people in the Netherlands are doing it and now we're ranked #11 in the marketing category.

You're doing it wrong... but it may not be entirely your fault? Perverse incentives in experimentation can lead to cherry-picking results, running 2-day tests, and ignoring long-term effects. If you do this purposefully though, you're ruining experimentation for everyone and we hope you stub your toe. In this episode, Tracy and Shiva discuss: 00:00 Intro 03:52 What are perverse incentives? 06:18 Perverse incentives in experimentation 17:28 How perverse incentives ruin it for everybody 19:46 LinkedIn Post of the Week The LinkedIn post of the week is from Simon Girardin: https://tinyurl.com/FromAtoBSimon Like what you hear? Subscribe. All the snakes are doing it. *hissss*