SLOW FLOWERS with Debra Prinzing

The Flower Farmers has been in the works for two years, as my co-author and the book's creative director Robin Avni and I have poured our storytelling passion into the narratives and imagery that portray 29 North American growers. The book was released on May 6th by Abrams, and we've been in major celebration mode […] The post Episode 718: The Flower Farmers, with co-authors Robin Avni and Debra Prinzing; plus a bonus interview with Daniel Sparler, the book's horticulture editor appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

The Carrier family has been growing cut flowers and plants for more than 40 years, raising their three children with a love for flowers, and keeping the business in the family as it transitions into the hands of the next generation. Plant Masters, the specialty cut flower farm owned by Leon and Carol Carrier, and […] The post Episode 717: The future of Plant Masters, with legacy growers Leon and Carol Carrier, and their son Lee, next generation flower farmer now leading the family business appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Marly Surena-Llorens was born and raised in the U.S., but her Haitian mother's stories of tropical gardens filled with palms, crotons, and bougainvillea plants inspired her lifelong love of flowers. Yet, Marly says some of her most vivid floral impressions came from the BBC programs of her youth, when she watched period TV dramas in […] The post Episode 716: More than a side hustle, flower farming and floral design with Marly Surena-Llorens of Fenimore & Rutland appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

It’s a Red-Letter Week here at Slow Flowers, as my longtime collaborator, Robin Avni, and I celebrate the May 6th publication of The Flower Farmers, our beautiful and informative new book featuring 29 growers across North America. You've heard a bit from some of the experts profiled in The Flower Farmers, and you'll continue to […] The post Episode 715: From Farmers' Market to Elevated Retail, with Abby Matson of Diddle and Zen and Julie Rémy of Fleuris Orchard and Blooms appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Renowned potter Frances Palmer has spent decades creating art that has enchanted designers and artists around the world. But there is another vibrant side of her creative life that she's equally passionate about and devoted to – flower gardening and arranging. Today, join me in an engaging conversation with artist and passionate gardener Frances Palmer […] The post Episode 714: An inspiring conversation with Frances Palmer, ceramic artist, photographer, flower gardener, and author of Life With Flowers appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

I'm always so inspired by the paths taken by our Slow Flowers Members to create their floral endeavors and today's guest has a fabulous back-story, which we'll share with you today. Sydney Fee of Fee, Fi, Fo Farm is based in New York's Finger Lakes Region, home to nearly 150 wineries and many destination wedding […] The post Episode 713: Sydney Fee of Fee, Fi, Fo Farm on how her sustainable hospitality and tourism background supports her farmer-florist enterprise appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Just in time for gardening and farming season, I'm thrilled to introduce you to The Flower Farmers, my new book co-authored with longtime collaborator Robin Avni. The Flower Farmers delivers a visually compelling collection of stories and flower-growing wisdom to inspire gardeners and flower lovers alike. Immerse yourself in the stories of 29 flower farms, including the […] The post Episode 712: Growing and Designing with Hellebores. Meet our Hellebore Experts, Diane Szukovathy and Dennis Westphall of Jello Mold Farm and Rizaniño “Riz” Reyes of RHR Horticulture appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

It's early in the season, but Amy Linhart already has been harvesting from her crop of 13,000 daffodils to supply her main wholesale customer, an upscale regional grocery chain in the Seattle-Tacoma region. I visited Humming Harvest Farm in late March for a tour of the fields and new high tunnel, both of which allowed […] The post Episode 711: Flower farming as a second career with environmental educator Amy Brodbeck Linhart of Humming Harvest Farm appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

The Southern California farm synonymous with breathtaking blooms and gorgeous flowers and foliage is celebrating its 100th year in business this year. Founded by Giovanni Mellano in 1925, Mellano & Company is embarking on “Blooming into a New Era,” a year-long celebration highlighting the generations of families and faces who have played an integral role […] The post Episode 710: Celebrating 100 years of California flower farming with Mike A. Mellano of Mellano & Co. appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Lovers of Fynbos, the beautiful plants in the Proteacae family, will enjoy today's conversation with expert protea grower and long-time Slow Flowers member Diana Roy, flower farmer and Creative Director of Resendiz Brothers Protea Growers. Along with the farm's founder and CEO Mel Resendiz, Diana and other protea growers in the greater San Diego area […] The post Episode 709: Diana Roy of Resendiz Brothers Protea Growers on welcoming the 2025 International Protea Conference to their fields appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

After years of frustration over outdated and unsustainable floral options that funeral homes offered bereaved families, floral designer Nicole Wright decided to produce an alternative resource to help the industry shift from standard practice to updated and safer options. She wrote and produced “Returning Home,” her new book for the funeral industry, florists, and families. […] The post Episode 708: Reconceptualized Sympathy Flowers with Nicole Wright of The Pink Peony appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

If you're interested in what flower farming's “chapter two” might look like, today's guest shares one version of that narrative. After 8 years of intensive urban flower farming and floral design in Philadelphia, Cassie Plummer of Jig-Bee Flower Farm pulled up roots and moved to northeastern Vermont to be closer to family and to establish […] The post Episode 707: Cassie Plummer of Vermont's Jig-Bee Flower Farm on diversifying with open-pollinated, non-GMO treated, sustainably-grown flower seeds appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Lori Poliski is reviving the forgotten art of Pot-et-Fleur, an iconic floral style, historically defined as “living arrangements with plants, cut flowers, and foliage.” Having originated in 17th century France and continuing through the Victorian era, Pot-et-Fleur offers today's florists a contemporary, sustainable, and long-lasting method of designing with local and seasonal ingredients. The method is […] The post Episode 706: Flori's Lori Poliski on the Art of Pot-et-Fleur, A Large-Scale Design Demonstration With Plants, Cut Flowers, and Foliage appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Master Gardener and writer Willi Galloway is a home gardener who loves to grow food and cook with the vegetables she harvests from her urban kitchen garden in Portland, Oregon. An award-winning writer and radio commentator, Willi is the author of “Grow Cook Eat, a food-lover's guide to vegetable gardening.“ Originally published 13 years ago, […] The post Episode 705: Growing Flowers in the Edible Garden, with Willi Galloway, author of “Grow Cook Eat” appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Take a deep breath and inhale the intoxicating fragrance of a sweet pea. Who wouldn't want to grow this stunning annual flower – beloved for its dreamy petal hues, evocative scent, and popularity in both the cottage cutting garden and the florist's vase? Meet Marryn Mathis, whose students and customers call the Sweet Pea Queen, […] The post Episode 704: Sweet Pea School with Marryn Mathis of The Farmhouse Flower Farm appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Join Quynh Nguyen, the paper artist behind Pink and Posey, as she shares her decade-long journey in paper artistry, from crafting her first floral arrangement to co-creating the Papertalk Podcast. Quynh is the author of The New Art of Paper Flowers – just published in late 2024. She has produced fine art paper floral installations […] The post Episode 703: The New Art of Paper Flowers with Quynh Nguyen of Pink & Posey appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Last weekend I was invited to Vancouver, British Columbia, where two floral luminaries, Hitomi Gilliam and Per Benjamin, were teaching an in-person workshop for students of their Floristic Dialog courses. I wanted to interview Per to learn more of his about-to-be-published book, Sustainable Floral Design – A Sustainable Future found in History. This beautiful new […] The post Episode 702: Sustainable Floral Design and its History, with Per Benjamin – author, World Cup Winner, and florist for the Nobel Prize Award Ceremonies appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Showcasing floral agriculture as a valuable farm crop in an area surrounded by ranches and alfalfa farms, Kim and Kylie operate Yellow Petal Flower Farm in Fallon, Nevada. Let’s hear how they created a multi-generational, woman-led flower farm and floral design business serving Reno, Lake Tahoe, and the surrounding region. The Nevada Department of Agriculture, […] The post Episode 701: Meet Mother-Daughter Duo Kim Urso and Kylie Pack of Yellow Petal Farm, Nevada’s Small-Business Agriculture Award Recipients for 2024 appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Experienced plantswoman Sue Dykstra has operated nurseries for decades. She opened Creekside Growers in 2001, expanding the Middleville, Michigan business from a small plantstand to a full-service garden center with 65,000-square-feet of covered greenhouses. Over the past several years, Sue and manager Kelly Lewis have transitioned the nursery to a cut flower farm with indoor […] The post Episode 700: How Sue Dykstra and Kelly Lewis of Michigan's Creekside Growers transitioned a 25-year-old retail plant nursery into a cut flower farm with year-round production appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Yes, you can grow gorgeous cut flowers in Alaska. Just ask Misty Vanderweele, anAlaska native who founded All Dahlia'd Up in 2013, a boutique flower farm in Palmer. There is a magical effect on the intense color palettes and robust health of Misty's blooms, as the short growing season is balanced by up to 22 […] The post Episode 699: Building a Flower Farm Centered Around Floral Tourism with Misty Vanderweele of All Dahlia'd Up Flower Farm in Palmer, Alaska appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

This year, in recognition of Slow Flowers’ annual focus on changing cultural and creative shifts in the floral industry, our Forecast hones in on seven key insights. In a year where Artificial Intelligence has become omnipresent, we find ourselves reverting to the Analog world of nature. Innovation and personal expression are being challenged by the […] The post Episode 698: Slow Flowers Floral Insights and Industry Forecast for 2025 appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Happy New Year! We've pulled one of our most popular episodes of 2024 to share with you today and I know it will inspire you with new sustainability ideas for the coming wedding season! Meet Jessica Stewart, a pioneering Slow Flowers floral designer, and learn how she leads with joy when communicating her values to […] The post Episode 697: Best of 2024 (Encore) Secrets of a Sustainable Wedding Florist with Jessica Stewart of Pittsburgh’s Bramble & Blossom appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

For the past decade, I have kept an important annual ritual. Before I turn the calendar page to the New Year, I take time at the end of December to reflect back on the one that's coming to a close. This exercise has become our recurring Slow Flowers Society “Year in Review,” a habit that […] The post Episode 696: Our 2024 Year in Review for Slow Flowers Society with Debra Prinzing appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Back by popular demand, we’re hosting Johnny’s Seeds’ floral experts, Joy Longfellow and Hillary Alger, who will introduce some of Johnny’s Selected Seeds’ 40-plus new flower seed varieties for 2025! Hillary and Joy take us behind the scenes to learn more about the dazzling selections of floral varieties and mixes for 2025 – from the subtle to the vibrant, […] The post Episode 695 – New Cut Flower Seeds for 2025 + Flower Breeding News with Hillary Alger, Joy Longfellow, and Lindsay Wyatt of Johnny's Selected Seeds appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Every day for more than a decade, Mary Jo Hoffman has made a photograph of found nature – no subject too small or too ordinary. For Mary Jo, a former aeronautical engineer, this daily ritual cracked open profound revelations about the connectedness of all things, the importance of place, and her own life. She joined […] The post Episode 694 – A Conversation with Mary Jo Hoffman on her new book STILL: The Art of Noticing appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

It's Willow Week here at the Slow Flowers Podcast and Alana Karam of Willamette Willows is my guest. Learn about the three distinct categories of willow plants and their markets – including cultivars suitable for basketry and woven garden structures, as well as the many varieties of curly willow and pussy willow loved by floral […] The post Episode 693 – The Wonderful World of Willows with Alana Karam of Willamette Willows appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Wondering what’s NEXT in your portfolio of floral products and services? Today's topic – the art and business of flower pressing — promises to inspire you. I'm thrilled to share our recent November Slow Flowers Meet-Up with Kate Punnett, who's based in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. She is a pressed flower artist dedicated to sustainability and she crafts […] The post Episode 692 – The Art and Business of Pressed Flowers with Ottawa-based Kate Punnett of The August Press appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Hello everyone, Debra Prinzing here from the Slow Flowers Podcast. I hope you have been following along for the past few months as we have been posting Instagram live conversations with our amazing Slow Flowers WORLDWIDE Summit speakers. Today, I have a fun conversation to share and it will introduce you (or possibly re-introduce you) […] The post Episode 692 Bonus: Sarah Statham of Simply By Arrangement (Encore) appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

In her recent Slow Flowers Journal column, “The Business of Flowers,” Brooke Palmer of Jenny Creek Flowers shared how and why she embraces winter tulip production. Our conversation today explores Brooke's considerations through the lens of her Slow Flowers sustainability ethos while also forcing thousands of tulips into bloom during the off-season. Brooke and I […] The post Episode 691 – The Case for Growing Winter Tulips with Brooke Palmer of Jenny Creek Flowers appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Owner of Queen Bee Blooms in St. Louis, Missouri, Elizabeth Fichter is a farmer-florist who has given a lot of thought to how she can differentiate her business from the conventional alternative. In today's episode, she will outline six important actions you can take to better discuss the value and benefits of locally grown flowers […] The post Episode 690 – Elizabeth Fichter of Queen Bee Blooms shares how to have the conversation that will change perceptions around local flowers appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Marigold and Mint is a brand quite familiar to Seattle's local floral aficionados. It was originally a flower farm and tiny shop owned by Katherine Anderson, who later opened The London Plane, a beautiful café & floral shop. During that time, Katherine teamed up with Illustrator/florist Isvald Klingels and designer Christian Petersen to create Marigold […] The post Episode 689 – Marigold and Mint Botanicals' Izzie Klingels on flowers as an artist's medium appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

There are small and sizable ways to improve on the practices and habits we've relied on for far too long. Today's guest, wedding and events designer Blair Lynn of Sweet Blossoms, has done tons of research to bring a zero-waste focus to her studio – and she's sharing those tips with us today. The conversation […] The post Episode 688 – How to bring more sustainability into your studio or retail shop, with Blair Lynn of Maryland-based Sweet Blossoms appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

We're diving deep into the world of lily growing, with two experts who share their advice and know-how. Today's episode was recorded as our October Slow Flowers Member Meet-Up and we have had many requests for the replay video and audio – so you're in for a real treat. Gretel Adams of Sunny Meadows Flower Farm […] The post Episode 687 – Secrets of Successful Lily Growers with Gretel Adams of Sunny Meadows Flower Farm and Ko Klaver of Zabo Plant appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

“Diamond Day” is a charming 1970s folksong by English singer-songwriter Vashti Bunyan. The lyrics about a sweet family farm inspired Caitlin Carnahan, today's guest, to borrow its title for her business, Diamond Day Bouquet. The farm specializes in unique and old-fashioned, garden-style flowers grown organically and with love. Caitlin has developed an expertise growing for […] The post Episode 686 – An autumn flower farm tour + conversation with Caitlin Carnahan of Diamond Day Bouquet, based on Washington's Olympic Peninsula appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Kit Wertz and Casey Schwartz are a gifted sister duo who own Flower Duet, a dynamic studio serving Los Angeles and the greater Southern California region. Their diversified floral enterprise ranges from lavish beachfront weddings to popular design workshops for local botanical gardens and cultural institutions. They also provide flowers for an impressive lineup of […] The post Episode 685 – Florals for Corporate and Event Clients with Casey Schwartz and Kit Wertz of Flower Duet appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Decades of flower farming experience add up to a new, 336-page reference guide called “Floral Standards,” compiled by members of the Seattle Wholesale Growers Market. Join me for your first chance to see a preview of this book, and to learn from some of its creative team members. Learn how you can get your hands […] The post Episode 684 – Floral Standards, the essential new book from the Seattle Wholesale Growers Market – featuring my conversation with Brad Siebe, Diane Szukokvathy and Vivian Larson appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Paulina Nieliwocki is celebrating her 10th anniversary as owner and creative director of Blue Jasmine Floral, a New Jersey-based shop and studio serving the greater New York City-Hudson Valley-New Jersey region with wedding and event florals. I've always loved how Paulina combines color palettes, floral shapes, and botanical textures to create her pieces — and […] The post Episode 683 – Paulina Nieliwocki of Blue Jasmine Floral welcomes us to her New Jersey studio and designs a foam-free floral arrangement appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Nothing beats a flower farm tour – and I couldn't say no to the chance to visit Free Range Flowers in person last week. It's a beautiful, sustainable cut flower farm and design studio just miles away from the Canadian border outside Bellingham. I'm so happy to share my conversation with farmer-florist Celeste Monke recorded […] The post Episode 682: Celeste Monke of Free Range Flowers, a diversified cut flower farm operated with partner Jay Roelof – plus, a farm tour to preview ASCFG’s regional meeting in Bellingham, Washington appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

At this time of year, I'm feeling those back-to-school vibes — and more importantly, seeking more knowledge – so I'm happy to feature floral educator Sarah Berquist, who teaches sustainable flower farming and floral entrepreneurship to college students at the Stockbridge School of Agriculture. Join me to learn about her inspiring approach to educating farmer-florists […] The post Episode 681: Slow Flowers goes Back to School with sustainable floral educator Sarah Berquist of Stockbridge School of Agriculture at University of Massachusetts-Amherst. appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Like me, so many of our Slow Flowers practitioners have careers rooted in horticulture. And today's guest, Lisa Dailey of Highlands, North Carolina-based Cultivation, shares how she brings Slow Flowers to her community by melding landscape and cutting garden design and consultation with organic floral design. It all comes together for Lisa and her colleagues […] The post Episode 680: Let's throw a Dahlia Festival with Lisa Dailey of Cultivation, a Slow Flowers member and horticulture consultant based in Highland, North Carolina appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

We know that there's been widespread embrace of the Slow Flowers Movement across the world, especially in countries that have seen their flower production move overseas. While the concept of Slow Flowers started right here, the term and philosophy have been adopted and embraced worldwide – and we definitely take credit! It's inspiring to meet […] The post Episode 678: Slow Flowers Visits France (Part 2) – a tour of Les Singulières Ferme Florale with flower farmer Coralie Vinet appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

When she owned and operated Silver Lake Farms, Tara Kolla was one of Los Angeles's pioneering urban flower growers. She helped change legislation to approve backyard flower farming and was a popular vendor at Hollywood Farmers' Market. In 2016, Tara and her husband dramatically reimagined their lives and moved to the La Rochelle region of […] The post Episode 677: Slow Flowers Visits France to catch up with former Los Angeles flower farmer Tara Kolla of Mill on the Rock appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Farmer-florist Stacy Marshall recently opened her beautiful flower farm in historic Poulsbo, Washington, to host British sustainable design educator Rachel Wardley of Tallulah Rose Flower School. I spent a morning visiting with these two floral friends to learn about their recent collaboration to elevate local flowers, seasonal flowers, and sustainable practices. Stacy Marshall says she […] The post Episode 676: Petal & Pitchfork's Stacy Marshall hosts sustainable design workshop with Rachel Wardley of UK's Tallulah Rose Flower School appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

After building her studio's wedding and event portfolio, Lexi Richards knew she wanted to pursue channels that combine her floral art with commerce and civic commissions. Join me as we discuss her branding approach to attract corporate bookings and public artist-in-residency work. Today's guest, Lexi Richards, owns Twiggage & Bloom, where she and her family […] The post Episode 675: Lexi Richards of British Columbia's Twiggage & Bloom on developing corporate and public art commissions as a floral studio's specialty niche   appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Based in Burlington, Vermont, Jayson Munn owns Jayson Munn Design. He specializes in creating inspired arrangements for weddings, corporate events, and photo styling throughout New England, but Jayson never veers too far from his gardening influences. Join me for a heartfelt conversation with Jayson as we chat about nature, flowers, plants, and living slow & […] The post Episode 674: Floral designer Jayson Munn on living slow and seasonally, letting the garden be your aesthetic influence, and sourcing flowers close to home   appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Emily Pek of Frayed Knot Farm recently contributed an essay to Slow Flowers Journal's Summer 2024 issue, sharing her philosophy on the importance of community connections for sustaining a vibrant cut flower business that has served the greater Cleveland area for the past seven years. We invited Emily to discuss her story and her journey […] The post Episode 673: Connections and collaborations to build a solid market presence in northeast Ohio, with Emily Pek of Frayed Knot Farm appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Ten years ago, Rebecca Bodicky combined her fine arts education with flower shop and restaurant experience to open the Alice Blue Collective, a design studio and urban micro farm in St. Louis, Missouri. Join me in conversation with Rebecca as she reflects on her floral journey and shares her approach to combining art with flowers. […] The post Episode 672: Alice Blue Collective celebrates tenth anniversary of designing flowers in St. Louis, Missouri appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

What is it like to grow cut flowers in Zones 2-4 for only three-to-four months each year and run a successful small-scale flower farm with those constraints? Kristen Primrose does just that and I'm so excited to share our conversation and a tour of her Southern Alberta-flower farm. I know you've heard me talk about […] The post Episode 670: A visit to Primrose Lane Farm, an Alberta, Canada, and a conversation with flower farmer Kristen Primrose appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

American Flowers Week encourages flower farmers, floral designers, flower enthusiasts, and gardeners alike to promote their blooms across social media with the hashtag #americanflowersweek. The campaign debuted in 2015 as the original domestic flower promotion holiday. Our annual botanical couture collection is one of our most popular projects – and today, I'll speak with all […] The post Episode 669: Making fashion with flowers, in our 10th anniversary celebration of American Flowers Week with five creators of our 2024 botanical couture collection appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

Get ready for our inspiring conversation with Janis Harris and Melanie Harrington as these two farmer-florists bring us a preview of their upcoming presentations at the Slow Flowers Summit, taking place next week in Banff, Alberta, Canada. In just a few days, I'll be gathering with nearly 100 attendees at the Slow Flowers Summit, which […] The post Episode 668: Slow Flowers Summit Preview with Farmer-Florists Melanie Harrington of Dahlia May Flower Farm and Janis Harris of Harris Flower Farm  appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.

We're taking a deep dive into the world of lilies today, featuring my conversations with experts I met while attending Dutch Lily Days in Amsterdam earlier this month. Most lily bulbs are produced in Holland, but the cut flowers you can grow from them are an important opportunity for domestic farmers and florists to offer […] The post Episode 667: Slow Flowers on the Road – a Visit to Dutch Lily Days appeared first on Slow Flowers Podcast with Debra Prinzing.