Podcast appearances and mentions of john now

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with screenwriter and author Neal Marshall Stevens about his new book on horror, “A Sense of Dread (Getting Under The Skin of Horror Screenwriting).”LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Neal's book at Michael Wiese Productions: https://mwp.com/product-author/neal-marshall-stevens/Neal on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0139605/Brian Forrest's Blog: https://toothpickings.medium.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastNeal Stevens Transcript JOHN: Neal, you have a really long and storied history in the horror cinema. Can you remember the very first horror movie that had an impact on you? NEAL: Well, actually, looking back, the first movie that scared the hell out of me wasn't a horror movie. It was actually a Disney movie called Johnny Tremaine. It was a kid's movie. And there was a scene in that movie, Johnny Tremaine was a kid during the Revolutionary War who knew Paul Revere, who, as you may remember, was a silversmith. And there's a scene in that movie, the British are coming and Paul Revere has got this urn of molten silver.It gets knocked onto a table. Johnny Tremaine trips and puts his hand face up into the molten silver and fries his hand. And I'm sure I know I, every kid in the audience goes like (sound effect.) But that's actually not the scariest part of the movie. Later on, surgeons are unwrapping his burnt hand, and they look down and they react in horror.His fingers have healed together, stuck together. We don't see it and they say, “Oh, we're going to have to cut his fingers apart,” which also happens off screen. And again, in our imagination, imagining no anesthesia back then, it's a revolutionary war. So, poor Johnny Tremaine has to have his healed together fingers cut apart. The memory of what that must be like has lasted. I must have been like five or six when I saw it. My parents dragged me to see Johnny Tremaine, it's a happy Disney movie. I'm 67 years old, so it's been over a half a century since I saw this movie and was appropriately traumatized by those images. So, Disney knew how to scare little kids. That's for sure. JOHN: He sure did. Wow. That's a horrible story. NEAL: Yeah. As for official horror movies that scared the hell out of me, again, we used to watch Phantasmic Features on the TV in Boston. I remember a movie called Teenagers from Outer Space. They weren't actually teenagers. They were all in their thirties. But anyway, these invaders had a skeleton ray that as they would aim it at someone, it would flash and you're instantly reduced literally to a skeleton. And they were, they didn't care who, so as soon as they come out of their spaceship, there's a barking dog—bzzzt!—and the dog falls down, reduced to bones. They didn't care. They would use it as a woman's climbing out of a swimming pool—bzzzt!—skeleton floating in the pool. The casualness with which completely innocent people are reduced to skeletons. Again, absolutely horrifying. Couldn't have been much older than nine or ten when I watched this movie. But the fact that human flesh has reduced the skeletons, but also the casual innocence of which people are reduced to flesh is stripped off their bones. It's terrifying to me. BRIAN: I wonder how you parlayed that early sense of, “Oh, I like horror movies” into, “I want to create horror as a genre. “ NEAL: Well, I was one of a whole generation of kids who got super eight cameras and made, you know, we made stop motion movies and made monster movies in their basements. Pursuant to that, I was writing scripts when I was 13 years old. I guess people now do it with phones. We didn't have cell phones back when I was a kid, but we had super eight cameras and then, you know, a little cartridge things that we'd slug in. And so, I made tons of those little stop motion movies down in my basement. BRIAN: Do you still have some of them? NEAL: I guess I may have them somewhere. I think I have an old creaky super eight projector somewhere. I don't think you can get a bulb for it anymore. BRIAN: I've got one up there. I wonder if it would work? NEAL: Yeah. That's the big question. I wonder if it would work? Heaven only knows. JOHN: But that's a great way to learn visual storytelling. NEAL: Yeah. When I ultimately went to NYU grad film and, and all the films that we shot the first year were all silent. First silent film then silent with sound effects, but you weren't allowed to use sync sound until you got to second year, if you made it that far. JOHN: Did you make it that far? NEAL: Yes, I did. I actually graduated. Back at NYU, it was a very rough program at the time. They cut the student enrollment in half going from first to second year. So it was, it was a rough program back then. JOHN: That's brutal. NEAL: Yeah. JOHN: So, you leave film school with something under your arm that you've shot. Where does that lead you? NEAL: It certainly didn't get me much in the way of employment at the time. I ended up going right back to NYU. I ran their equipment room of all things for something like six years. But during all those six years I was writing. They had like a computer that they used to turn out the schedules. And then when I weren't writing schedules, I was using that computer to write my screenplays using WordStar. If anyone remembers that old program. God, it was horrible, but it was free, because they had the equipment room. And eventually I sent some stuff to Laurel Entertainment, which is the company that did Tales From the Dark Side. And they had an open submission program. If you signed a release form, you could send them stuff. And I'd gone in and I'd met Tom Allen, who was their senior story editor. I had a screenplay and I went in and talked about it. He liked it. It wasn't for them, but then he invited me to submit ideas for their new series, their follow-up series to Tales from the Dark Side, which is a thing called Monsters. And I went in, and I pitched some ideas, and they bought one. And it turned out to be their premier episode of Monsters. And shortly after that, tragically, Tom Allen passed away. And the VP, Mitch Galen, invited me in and said, “Would you like to take over and be our senior story editor on Monstersand our other projects?” And meanwhile, you know, for the second part of that whole series, I was still working in the equipment room at NYU and also working as a senior story editor on Monsters and being their creative consultant and reading hundreds of scripts for Laurel Entertainment. And then eventually I quit the equipment room, and I went and I worked for them full time and wrote a bunch of episodes for Monsters. And I was a story editor on The Stand and The Langoliers— which wasn't so good—but on a bunch of other projects, it was just an enormous learning experience. And The Stand I think turned out really well. Other stuff, The Langoliers, did not work out really well. And a bunch of other projects that were not horror. BRIAN: Why do you think some things, especially, let's talk about Stephen King, why do you think some of those things adapted well and some didn't? NEAL: Well, The Langoliers was not, it wasn't that great. Wasn't that strong a project. And I think the idea, trying to make that and stretch that out into a mini-series. wasn't that strong. It wasn't that strong, the material wasn't really there. I think there are times when staying faithful to the material is the right approach. It certainly was the right approach with The Stand. Working with The Langoliers, you know, there were certainly elements of The Langoliers that were strong. And other stuff that was really just so-so. And I think if you'd had the willingness to step aside and do something different with it, it would probably have ended up—especially because they were expanding it into a mini-series—being just devoted to the original material, I think, ended up with a product that was really thin. Plus, we had hired a special effects company that the Langoliers themselves were just horrible. It was really substandard, honestly. So, it did not work out very well. BRIAN: I'm guessing with all these different projects you had to work on, you probably had to start dealing with types of horror and genres of horror that weren't in your comfort zone. Maybe not even what you wanted to do. What kind of learning curve was that for you? NEAL: You end up having to deal with a lot of different kinds of horror, especially with, you know, working in Monsters, where you just were turning stuff out tremendously fast. But also, I grew up with a certain kind of horror.I was never a huge fan of slasher stuff. I missed that whole era of horror. Certain kinds of movies appealed to me. That particular kind of transgressive material never really clicked. JOHN: Why do you think that is with you? NEAL: Because this simple act of repetitive bloodletting, for me, it always felt thin. I mean, it's not that I objected to explicit violence or explicit gore. I mean, I think that Dawn of the Deadunquestionably is one of the most brilliant horror movies ever made. And there certainly, George Romero didn't pull back from explicit violence. Or a movie like Hellraiser, the same deal. It's a question of how the filmmaker employs the use of graphic violence to elevate the material. What I've told people when you watch a movie like Dawn of the Dead, the first 10 or 15 minutes of that movie—which by the way, I saw when it virtually when it first came out and saw it in the theater—you had never seen anything like that opening scene in terms of graphic violence from being bitten and heads being blown off and all the rest. You were just put through the ringer, watching that opening. And after that opening, the movie was never that violent again. He never showed anything like that again.And you didn't have to, because you—having seen that opening scene, you were—you were so blown out of your seats. You said, “I'm watching a movie where anything could happen to anyone.” And that was a kind of really intelligent and that kind of thoughtful use of violence is what George Romero was always able to do. It was understanding how graphic images can affect the psychology of the viewer. JOHN: Do you think it's also that with Romero's films, they're actually about something, whereas a slasher film is really just about a body count, but with Romero, he always had another thing going. NEAL: Well, of course, I mean, no movie that isn't about anything is ever going to really, from my perspective, be worth watching. But I mean, even a movie like Hostel, which is exceptionally violent and harrowing, is certainly about something. And I think Eli Roth's movies, which get a really bad rap, are very much about something. He's got something to say with his depictions of violence and his images. Not necessarily to my taste. I certainly wouldn't say that he's not, he's making movies that are certainly about something. He's not a dumb filmmaker by any stretch of the imagination. JOHN: So, you work on Monsters, and then what happens? NEAL: I worked on Monsters. I worked there for around six years, and then they were acquired by a big studio, and they were shut down. And so, I was out of work. I'd known a woman named Debbie Dion from Full Moon. I figured, well, I'll give that a shot. I'll call her up and see, maybe I could write for a Full Moon. And so, I gave her a shot. I, you know, reintroduced myself and said, you know, “I'm looking to see if I could get some job, maybe writing features for Full Moon Entertainment, Charlie Band's company.” And they said, “Well, we pay around $3,000 for a feature.” And I said, “Well, I got paid more than that for writing an episode of Monsters. That doesn't seem like such a good deal.” And then my unemployment insurance ran out. BRIAN: Suddenly it's a very good deal. NEAL: Sounds like suddenly a very good deal. But, you know, I made it very clear that money buys one draft, and if you want to rewrite, you got to pay me again, because I knew what development was like, where they just expect draft after draft after draft, and I'd say, “I can't do that, that doesn't make any sense.” And also, having worked for Monsters, I had learned to write really fast. I could write a pass on a Monsters episode in two days, so I knew that I could write fast, because these were 80-page scripts. And so, I started writing for Full Moon, and over the course of like the next few years, I wrote something like... 50 or 60 features for Charlie Band. And a lot of them got made, because they're not wasting money on movies that don't get made. Tons of them got made. And in the midst of doing that, I was, you know, whenever I got a break writing a full movie, I would write spec scripts, you know, in the hopes I could sell something of my own that wasn't for $3,000. I didn't have an agent at that point. I didn't have a manager at that point. And so, I'm not really good making cold calls to people. It's not my thing. I just like to sit, write my scripts. I'd come home one day, and I saw my wife was on the phone having this long conversation with someone. When she was done, I said, “Well, who was that?” “Oh yeah. I called up to order something.” I said, “So she's really good at getting on the phone and talking to people and calling them.” And so, I convinced her to be my manager. So, she agreed. She changed, you know, she went out under her maiden name. She managed to get an option on a science fiction script that I'd written that, I mean, it was ultimately bought. It was never made. And then I decided, you know what? Horror is really my bread and butter writing for Charlie Band. But I don't really have a horror spec. And most of what was out those days in horror didn't really scare me that much. I should really write a script that would scare me. So, I wrote a script called Deader, which I thought had all the stuff in it that I thought was really scary. And Judy went out with that script, sent it to a bunch of people, sent it to some folks at Stan Winston's company, as they had a development deal. The producer that she talked to really liked it, asked if he could sort of slip it to some people. He did, he sent it to someone, a producer at Dimension, it's based in New York, and he really liked it. And they showed it to Bob Weinstein. Bob Weinstein called us on Sunday. Am I half awake? Talk to Judy. Because they didn't know that Judy was my wife. He said, “This is the best goddamn script I've read. I'm like three quarters away. Come in on Monday and we'll talk about it.” So, we came in on Monday and they bought the script. And of course, at that point, it sort of went all over town. And for a very short period of time, it was like the flavor of the month and everyone loved me. And I got myself an agent and got myself like three pictures. And as I was a really big, big to-do. From that, I also got 13 Ghosts. I had like a really big opinion of myself after, after that sale. JOHN: Has that been tempered since then? NEAL: I kind of got the opinion that like, wow, selling scripts is easy. People wanted to hire me because that script was super hot and was all over town. I learned subsequently there are flavors in writers, and I was like that flavor of the month. That fades and then you have to really do a lot more work to get things sold. That was a hard lesson to learn. But I've managed to keep working over the years. I've written many scripts, sold some, and it's been a decent career. BRIAN: I was just wondering, you were having all the success writing screenplays, when did you decide to make a jump to writing a book? NEAL: Over the last five or six years, I've been teaching. A woman that I knew from NYU, actually, Dorothy Rumpolsky had been instrumental in starting a screenwriting program at David Lynch Institute for Cinematic Studies. And she realized at one point that she had a number of students who wanted to work in a horror. She remembered me back from NYU many years ago. So, she got in touch with me and wanted to know if I was interested in mentoring those students. And I said, absolutely. I done some other online teaching at other places. And so, the way it works is, you fly out for an opening few days where you meet the students. And then you fly back to where you come from. They go back to where they come from. And it's all done remotely, the mentoring. And so, I've been doing that now for five or six years. And during that kind of get together, you meet a bunch of guest lecturers and other teachers, other mentors. And a number of those people had written books for Michael Wiese productions. And, in the course of chatting, they suggested, well, you, you know, “You have a kind of encyclopedic knowledge of horror and horror cinema. That might be a good book for Michael Wiese. Give them a call and see if you can come up with a pitch and an interesting take on it.” And so I did, and I called them and they responded. And so we were off to the races. JOHN: The book is really, maybe delightful is the wrong word, but it's a captivating book because as you read through it—you have outlined breaking down our different types of fears—you can immediately in your mind go, “Oh, that's what that movie was doing. Oh, that was that. That's what was happening there.” What was your research process like? NEAL: I think that the research kind of developed over the decades as I studied what made movies scary and what was working, not only in the movies that I was watching, but in the movies that I was writing. I mean, in the same way that when you work as a screenwriter, it becomes almost second nature to try to figure out what was working and what wasn't. Talking to fellow filmmakers and screenwriters, you have to say, “How many times do you watch a movie?” And a lot of times I will watch a movie 8, 10, 20 times. And there's a process that works when you watch a movie that many times, where you say “Certain things will work every time you watch a movie.”In the same way that you can watch a comedy and you can laugh every single time as certain things comes up. And other times, you start seeing the nuts and bolts and say, “Well, this is always working and here they're just connecting stuff.” And you start saying, “Ah, I get it. I see what they're doing. I see how they're taking this piece that works and this other piece that works and they couldn't quite, they kind of, they found some connective tissue to stick it together. I see exactly what they're doing.” And you start understanding—whether you're watching a comedy or you're watching a drama or you're watching a scary movie—they knew exactly how to make this thing scary. And this is how they're doing it. And they understood exactly how to make this thing scary. And it's like, ah, this is what they're using. Whether it is a spider crawling on someone, that's always going to work. Or, “Oh, I see, this is just a jump scare.” And the jump scare is, I understand, that's just, because a big bang, a loud noise, a hand reaching in from, that's just, that's always going to work. It's going to work no matter what. It's just a kind of placeholder scare, because they couldn't think of anything better. And there are movies where it's just jump scares. And you can always use a jump scare. You can sneak up on a cat and jab it and it'll jump. It's an instinctive response. And if a movie is just relying on jump scares, you know it's because they don't have anything better. They haven't got any deeper than just having the phone ring and they turn up the soundtrack. You can always get an audience to jump by putting a loud sound on the soundtrack. JOHN: Is there an example you can think of though, where there is a jump scare that you think is a genuinely good, effective jump scare? NEAL: I can think of a movie that has two really excellent jump scares. John Carpenter's The Thing. When the doctor's giving the electric shock to the guy's chest, and the chest opens and slams shut on his hand. Didn't expect it.That's a super great jump scare. It is perfectly integrated into that scene. Everyone jumps, but it's also a brilliant continuation of that scene. Second jump scare, when MacReady is testing everyone's blood. And saying, “We're going to do you next,” puts the needle in, and that thing jumps out of the Petri dish.Fantastic jump scare. We didn't see it coming. Everyone jumps. And it's again, it's perfectly integrated into that scene. So, two brilliant jump scares in what's already an incredibly brilliant movie. BRIAN: I remember watching the commentary on Jaws and Spielberg said he got greedy with his jump scares. He had the moment towards the end of the film, you remember that Jaws comes out of the water while it's being chummed. And he said he got this great reaction from the audience, and he wanted one more. And he went back, and he added in the scene earlier where the corpse face comes through the hole. And he said he never got the audience to react as well to the shark after he added in that corpse face coming through the hole of the ship. And I wondered, do you think there's a point of diminishing returns with jump scares in one movie? NEAL: I think there absolutely is. I mean—and I have no end of admiration for Jaws. I think it may be one of the most brilliant movies ever, and it certainly has stood the test of time. JOHN: So, we've each come armed with some movies here that I thought it would be fun to talk about them with you, so that you could sort of delve into the different types of fear that are outlined in the book and we'll just sort ofcheckerboard back and forth here. I'm going to start with one of my favorite sense of dread movies, and that's Don't Look Now, with Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie, directed by Nick Roeg which I saw way too young. First R rated movie I saw. I remember I knew that it was supposed to be really scary, and I went with my older brother, and we were standing in line and the seven o'clock show was letting out. And I said to my brother, “Well, it can't be that scary. They're not saying anything.” Not realizing that they had all been stunned into silence about the last five minutes of that movie. So, what are your thoughts on Don't Look Now and where does that fit? NEAL: When I talk about the sense of dread, which is what my book is about, it's the notion of those aspects of our lives that we think of as safe and secure and dependable and sacred being suddenly or unexpectedly penetrated by the unknown or the unnatural, the unexpected. And you have to say, well, what are the things that we depend on? We depend on our homes. We depend on our families. And so that relationship of parent and child, what violates that? And the loss of a child, loss is already wrenching. And so, this sense of parents having lost a child, but then this notion that, well, maybe not, maybe the child is still out there somewhere, is so deeply disturbing. And so this weird, this quest, this pursuit in them. And meanwhile, in the background, you have the sense of a killer, of killings going on. This really disturbing notion of the woman's half decayed body being pulled out of the water is just as an image is—and again, the notion of human body being reduced to mere flesh—it's deeply disturbing. And nakedness, coupled with decay, it's deeply disturbing. And all of this sort of happening in the background. We don't quite know how these pieces connect. The notion that the search for the child and the notion that there's a killer on the loose. We know, because the nature of cinematic storytelling is telling us that somehow these things are going to connect, because, I mean, in the real world, there are countless thousands of things drifting around that don't necessarily hook up. But we know that one thing is going to collide with another. And so, there's this growing sense of profound unease, because we know, somehow, this child in this Red Riding Hood cape is wandering around, it's like, is this the child? Is the child going to become embroiled in this? But what we don't, certainly don't expect is the ending that confronts us in the finale, which is so incredibly, the reversal is so terrifying and so hits us in the face of that sense of innocence—revealed in such a terrifying way—is the essence of dread. Where we expect to find innocence, we find a nightmare. JOHN: What's great about what Nick Roeg did there was—if you read Daphne du Maurier's short story—he basically shot the last paragraph of that short story. Cinematically, he figured out the way that she's laying out what's going on with Donald Sutherland's character at that moment. He figured out a way to make it cinematic. So, like you say, all the pieces suddenly fall into place in those last few seconds. And, like you said, we've been brought to this place, we had no idea that that's where it was going to turn. Neal, tell me about Enemy from Space, and what you like about that. NEAL: Enemy from Space is the second of the three Quatermass movie, adaptations of the serial. It's in the same vein as Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and all these other movies about human beings who are being invaded and infested by alien forces. In this case, over the past few years—but in the context of the story—there have been rains of these tiny little meteorites. Anyone who finds them, they crack open and what's inside infests human beings. And you can find these tiny little burn marks, these V shaped marks on them. And the parasites take them over and make them into these kind of human slaves. And the premise is they serve this larger being, this kind of group entity, and they proceed to start building these atmosphere plants, with the goal ultimately to turn the earth into a colony for these beings that come from outer space. But the notion of these human beings, they have infiltrated our government, infiltrated our community, and they gradually take people over, scary enough. And they have built this enormous plant that looks, he says, this looks just like this proposed lunar base with these giant atmospheric domes. A group of people managed to infiltrate one of these bases and he looks inside, manages to get close enough to look inside one of these domes and inside are the parasites. When they're released, they grow together into this thing that looks like a giant blob. That's what it looks like outside of the human hosts. And a bunch of these guys are trapped inside of the atmosphere of plant. And they realize this thing, they can't survive outside the human body. They need methane to breathe, because that's what their home planet is like. “What we need to do is we need to pump oxygen into this dome to kill this thing. That'll destroy it.” And voices come over to say, “Look, this guy's crazy. There's nothing inside this dome. You send some representatives over, we'll show you anything you want.” And Quatermass says, “You're crazy if you go over there, you're going to be infected. You're going to be taken over.” But they managed to divide, they send the guys over and Quatermass is pleading with them, “Listen, they're going to get on this speaker. They're going to tell you that everything is fine, but you can't listen. Don't listen to them, whatever you say.” And then they hear this sound. This hideous sound of screaming coming down the pipes, the pipes that they've been sending oxygen down to the dome. They say, “What the hell is that? What's going on?” And then they look, they see the pressure has gone way up. There's something wrong. And the pipe is burst, the pipe that's sending oxygen to this dome. And they say, “What is it? What's happened?” And they look and something is dripping down through the pipe. And they say, “What is it?” It's blood. They took the guys that they sent, and they pushed them into the pipe. They say those pipes have been blocked with human pulp in order to keep the oxygen from coming into the dome. That is one of the most, again, all you see is just these drops of blood coming out of the cracked pipe, but that has resonated as one of the most terrifying moments from any movie that I saw, again, as a little kid. I've seen the movie recently and it's still incredibly terrifying. And again, the architecture of this web of pipes, the cold black and white architecture, is horrifyingly chilling. And the notion of human beings being reduced to mere flesh, being used as material for blocking a pipe. And the pipe's only like, it's like this big. So, you can imagine this person shoved into a pipe is hideous. JOHN: It is available on YouTube if anybody wants to watch it after that. Brian, do you want to ask about folk horror? BRIAN: Actually, I was going to jump ahead just because of what Neal was just talking about. I thought this would dovetail nicely into a question I had about a fear of contagion. And you can wrap body horror into this. Movies like The Thing or 28 Days Later, or probably The Quatermas Experiment as well. How does that fear of our own bodies being infected or watching another body change or be infected in unnatural ways? How does that—I don't want to use the word appeal—but how does that appeal to our sense of dread? NEAL: Well, I think you also have to run back to one of the most common— whether it's psychological or physiological—which is obsessive compulsive disorder. You say, well, what exactly is obsessive compulsive disorder? We have built in grooming behaviors, whether it's cleaning our hands, we clean our skin. That's wired into us. And when you turn the dial up too far, that turns into obsessive compulsive, obsessive hand cleaning or scratching, itching, hair pulling, all that stuff. It's wired in behavior, in the same way that dogs will scratch, we will scratch. And so, all of that, we react to it in the same way that if you see a spot of dirt on someone's forehead, it's almost impossible to “Clean that thing off. Get rid of that thing.” I mean, we're built in a certain way to respond to distortions, infections, invasions, in the same way that if someone's eye is cocked to one side, we react to it. Someone's face is distorted. We react to it negatively. We have to work not to respond to it. It may be a bug, but it may be a feature, because we are built to respond to a diseased or distorted members of our community. It's a survival trait. And so, in some ways, horror movies respond to that. Distorted human beings, Hunchback of Notre Dame or Igor or anyone else who are distorted, deformed, limbless creatures—Freaks—are employed in horror movies in a variety of different ways. BRIAN: And it's a very different thing from seeing an arm chopped off versus seeing an arm with three hands that are all operating. Both of them is something happening to your body that you might revolt towards, but it's a very different reaction though, right? NEAL: It is, but it's—in a sense—it's all variations of the same thing. There's a central human norm, and that which varies from the human norm beyond a certain point triggers a reaction that says, “That's not the way it's supposed to be.” And it's just, eyes are too close together, eyes are too far apart, eyes are too big, or there's an extra one. There's one missing. We recoil from it. We recoil from something that is too different, too far off the norm. And of course, in strictly social terms, you can say, but why, why should we? We shouldn't really respond in that way to others who are too different. But we do respond that way, and it comes with the programming in a very real degree. JOHN: How does that connect, then, to another movie on your list, The Island of Lost Souls, from 1932? NEAL: I think it's central to that list. The notion of the difference between that which is human and that which is animal. And Moreau, who experiments with making animals into human beings, but not really. And the sort of terrifying revelation when our hero and the woman—who we know to be an animal woman, but she looks fundamentally human—escape out into the woods and come across the animal person village. And the realization to what extent Moreau has been experimenting. It's not just tens or dozens. The animal people just come flooding out of the woods. And it's just hundreds. And the extent and the depth and the kind of nightmarish quality, they're all different. They're all horrible. And it's just like, what has Moreau been doing? He experiments with these animals, gets them to a certain state, and then he just discards them and moves on to something else. This utterly careless, sadistic god of this army of nightmares. And you sort of see when they do their, you know, “Are we not men?” And you just see row upon row upon row of these hideous nightmare faces. And you just say, “My God, what has this guy been doing for years? Just making these monsters.” JOHN: It's a classically creepy movie. I do want to ask you about the classic ghost story movie, The Haunting, and what that says about our fears. If you can, maybe tie that into Ghostwatch, because there's a similar sort of thing going on there. NEAL: They're both intriguing. They both are opening us up to this notion of unseen nightmare forces, especially the original Haunting, which shows us nothing. All you ever see: Doorknob turning. A face that may or may not be in the wall. This horribly loud banging on the door. A moment where someone thinks that her hand is being held, but there's no one there. It is simply this notion of a house that is born bad, but never really fully explained. Again, you have this idea of the world itself that should be well behaved, that should be governed by comprehensible natural laws. But there's something deeper and darker and incapable of truly being understood, nevermind being controlled. And if you just prod it a little bit too much, you're going to open it up to forces that are utterly destructive and utterly malevolent. And in both of these cases, you have this man of science and his team that are going to find out. “We're going to find out for sure whether there really are ghosts, whether there really is a supernatural, whether it really is life after death. We're going to nail this down for science.” Yeah, don't do that. Don't do that. These are things that are, that are not meant to be explored, not meant to be examined. Go back. BRIAN: I'm reminded of Van Helsing's sign off on the original Dracula, where he said, “Just remember, there really are such things in this world.” NEAL: Yeah. Yeah. And, and the same thing is true in some ways on a much more terrifying scale with Ghostwatch, where it's just, it's this kind of, “It's all just fun and Halloween, we're going to explore this. It's the most haunted house in Britain.” And it's broadcasters whose faces everyone knew at the time, and they were playing themselves. Going to this haunted house where you had these poltergeist phenomena. And we're all going to, “We're going to do it live and call in with your own experiences about being haunted.” And it all just goes so horribly wrong. JOHN: Now, Neal, I just watched that for the first time this week. Heard about it for years. I had no idea that those were real broadcasters. I thought they were really good actors. But to someone in Britain watching that, those are faces they saw all the time? NEAL: Yeah. Those are real broadcasters. They had their own shows. They were real, the real deal. JOHN: Wow. I highly recommend renting it because—it'll test your patience a little tiny bit, because it is quite banal for quite a while, as they lead you into it. But now this new bit of information that these are all faces that that audience who saw it, quote unquote, live that night, it's as terrifying as I imagined the Orson Welles' War the Worlds would have been. Because it seems very real. NEAL: And apparently the way they did it, is that there was a number you could call in. And if you called in that number, they would tell you, it's like, “Don't worry, this is all just a show.” But so many people were calling in, they couldn't get through. BRIAN: This really is War of the Worlds. NEAL: So, they never were able to get to that message that would tell them, don't worry, it's all just a show. So apparently it panicked the nation, because part of the premise was at a certain point, the ghost that was haunting the house got into the show. And so, the studio itself became haunted. It was really spectacularly well done. JOHN: It is. It's great. Let's just sort of wrap up here real quick with Neal, if you have any advice for beginning screenwriter about how to best create a really powerful and effective horror screenplay, any little tips. NEAL: Well, first of all, and I touched on this before, jump scares don't work on the page. You need the loud bang. You need the hand reaching in from the side. You describe that and it doesn't work. So, you have to rely on creating that sense of dread. And while writing screenplays, you have to keep things tight. The concept, the idea—in the same way comedy screenplays have to be funny—scary screenplays have to be scary. It has to be scary on the page. If it's not scary on the page, you're not going to sell the screenplay. And that's the fundamental trick. You got to make it scary on the page. JOHN: Excellent advice. All right, let's just quickly, each one of us, tell our listeners a recent favorite horror film that you've seen in the last couple years.I'll start with you, Brian. BRIAN: Just last night, I saw Haunting in Venice. And it worked because I had seen the other Kenneth Branagh/Agatha Christie adaptations, and I was very familiar with, and you know, you already know generally that kind of detective whodunit story: it's going to be very, you know, using logic and rationality.And when they had this episode that was sort of a one off—sort of a departure from that usual way that mysteries are solved—it was very effective. I think if I'd seen it without having already watched a bunch of Agatha Christie adaptations, I would have said, “Oh, that's an okay Halloween movie.” But having seen those other ones, it was an excellent Halloween movie. JOHN: Excellent. That's on my list. The movie I would recommend, which really surprised me, my wife literally dragged me to it because it was a French film called Final Cut, which is a French remake of a Japanese film called One Cut of the Dead. At about the 30-minute mark, I was ready to walk out, and I thought, why are we watching this? And then they took us on a ride for the next hour that, it's a really good ride. It's called Final Cut. BRIAN: And this is not to be confused with the Robin Williams Final Cut from... ? JOHN: Not to be confused with that, no. Or if you can go back to the original and watch the Japanese version. But what's great about the French version is they are literally remaking the Japanese version, to the point where they've made all the characters have Japanese names. Which the French people struggle with enormously. It's a highly effective film. Neal, how about you? Take us home. NEAL: Okay. It's not a new movie, but I just saw it very recently. It is a Chilean stop motion animated film called The Wolf House. It describes the adventures of a young Chilean woman who escapes from a repressive German colony and ends up in this bizarre house in which she blends into the walls. She's escaped with two pigs who grow up with her in this house, but again, nothing, no way in which I describe it is going to convey to you how deeply disturbing and chilling this movie is. It really is quite indescribably bizarre and disturbing and just well worth your time to watch. It's not quite like any other movie I've ever seen.

John shares his journey with grief and how celebrity photoshop nude fakes have given him solace. He'll discuss how he's been able to cope with writer's block since his mother's death, and how he's hoping to take his hobby to the next level. Tune in for an intimate look into his healing process, and come out with a newfound perspective on grief.Host Brianne Davis provides helpful advice, poignant stories, and plenty of laughter. Join John on this emotional, heartfelt journey to find healing and hope on Secret Life._____If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction, depression, trauma, sexual abuse or feeling overwhelmed, we've compiled a list of resources at secretlifepodcast.com.______To share your secret and be a guest on the show email secretlifepodcast@icloud.com_____SECRET LIFE'S TOPICS INCLUDE:addiction recovery, mental health, alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, OCD, ADHD, dyslexia, eating disorders, debt & money issues, anorexia, depression, shoplifting,  molestation, sexual assault, trauma, relationships, self-love, friendships, community, secrets, self-care, courage, freedom, and happiness._____Create and Host Your Podcast with the same host we use - RedCircle_____Get your copy of SECRET LIFE OF A HOLLYWOOD SEX & LOVE ADDICT -- Secret Life Novel or on Amazon______HOW CAN I SUPPORT THE SHOW?Tell Your Friends & Share Online!Follow, Rate & Review: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyFollow & Listen iHeart | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Amazon | PandoraSpread the word via social mediaInstagramTwitterFacebook#SecretLifePodcastDonate - You can also support the show with a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal (make payment to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com) or at our WEBSITE.Connect with Brianne Davis-Gantt (@thebriannedavis)Official WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterConnect with Mark Gantt (@markgantt)Main WebsiteDirecting WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterTranscript[0:00:00] John: My favorite actress, for example, she'll never, like, do like, nude scenes or anything like that, so I kind of look at the fakes. This is kind of fantasy. [0:00:19] Brianne Davis: Welcome to the Secret Life Podcast.[0:00:22] Brianne Davis: Tell me your secret, I'll tell you mine.[0:00:30] Brianne Davis: Sometimes you have to go through the darkness to reach the light. That's what I did. After twelve years of recovery in sex and love addiction, I finally found my soulmate myself. Please join me in my novel, secret Life of a Hollywood sex and love Addict. A four time bestseller on Amazon. It's a brutal, honest, raw, gnarly ride, but hilarious at the same time. Check it out now on Amazon.[0:01:01] Brianne Davis: Welcome to Secret Live Podcast. I'm Brianne. Davis-Gantt. Today, I'm pulling back the curtains of all kinds of human secrets. We'll hear about what people are hiding from themselves or others. You know, those deep, dark secrets you probably want to take to your grave. Or those lighter, funnier secrets that are just plain embarrassing. Really the how, what, one way, or live at all. Today. My guest is John. Now, John, I have a question for you. What is your secret?[0:01:27] John: So my secret is I collect celebrity photoshop, nude, fakes.[0:01:32] Brianne Davis: How long have you been doing that?[0:01:34] John: Since 2000.[0:01:36] Brianne Davis: 2000, okay, so dive in. What made you start doing that? Did you create them yourself? Like, take me back when that all started. Was something going on?[0:01:48] John: No, I didn't create any at that time. Basically what had happened is I was watching a new TV show that had just come out, I think, andromeda andromeda yeah, it's like a side fiction TV show.[0:02:03] John: Yeah.[0:02:04] John: I liked one of the actresses and so I pretty much went to Google, looked for her nude, and stumbled across the fake. And that was the first fake I ever found of her.[0:02:16] Brianne Davis: Okay.[0:02:17] Brianne Davis: Did you buy it or do you.[0:02:18] Brianne Davis: Just take it from is it free? How does that work?[0:02:22] John: Free? I just found it on Google image search.[0:02:26] Brianne Davis: Okay.[0:02:27] John: And pretty much like, just copied the image to my computer at the time was really old.[0:02:36] Brianne Davis: What do you think it is about the fake? Because there are a lot of celebrity nudes that are real, but you only like the fake ones.[0:02:44] John: No, it's more back then, she had never done that. Okay, so it's more of a fantasy thing.[0:02:57] Brianne Davis: Yes. So you've been doing that for almost 23 years.[0:03:02] John: Yeah, it's slowed down quite a bit. I don't collect as much anymore. Basically, if I see one I like, I just download it and stick it with the rest of them.[0:03:15] Brianne Davis: So how many do you think you have that's embarrassing? Well, that's why we are here. This is a show where we get to say all those embarrassing things. I have been there. I have said very many embarrassing things.[0:03:29] John: So I have about last count, over 15,000.[0:03:34] Brianne Davis: 15,000?[0:03:36] John: Yeah. Over.[0:03:37] John: Wow.[0:03:38] Brianne Davis: Over. Oh, my God. What do you do with them? They just sit there. Do you go through them? Do you, like, celebrate that? Like, what do you do with them?[0:03:47] John: Sometimes I just look at them and admire the work that went into them. Because some of them you can really tell because some people who make them just do a crappy don't put an effort into it.[0:04:04] John: Yeah.[0:04:05] Brianne Davis: So you almost see them as artwork.[0:04:07] John: Yeah.[0:04:08] Brianne Davis: And then do you find someone you like or you don't know, and then you go watch all their movies or their TV shows?[0:04:14] John: Sometimes. And there are some that I found and liked and then later just hated them. Because see, I think I have an OCD thing, and I see one minor detail that's off, and it bugs me.[0:04:36] Brianne Davis: That's all you focus on.[0:04:37] John: Yeah.[0:04:38] Brianne Davis: Got it. So if it's a bad art, if it's bad, do you keep that or do you throw that away or you still keep it?[0:04:46] John: I keep it. I guess there's some that are just not great that I keep. I think keeping them is nostalgia's sake.[0:04:54] John: Got it.[0:04:55] Brianne Davis: So it's almost like somebody collecting baseball cards or something. It sounds like there's this compulsion to it a bit.[0:05:04] John: Yeah. In the last couple of years, I've kind of started semi getting out of it.[0:05:11] Brianne Davis: Okay. What does that mean?[0:05:15] John: I used to look for new ones pretty much every day. Nowadays I look maybe every couple of weeks.[0:05:26] Brianne Davis: Oh. So what's been going on where you've decreased the searching for them in your life?[0:05:33] John: Maybe as I get older, I just don't enjoy them as much.[0:05:36] Brianne Davis: Does anybody in your life know about them?[0:05:40] John: Three people.[0:05:41] Brianne Davis: Three people? Who are those three people?[0:05:43] John: Two were by choice, and one was not by choice.[0:05:46] Brianne Davis: Oh, so you got caught?[0:05:48] John: Yeah. So basically the one who caught me was one of my female cousins.[0:05:55] Brianne Davis: Oh, no. So you went on your computer and and saw them?[0:05:58] John: I had collected some early this was back in high school, and I had collected some mended day at school. And I brought them home, loaded them on the computer, and forgot to close the images out. She came up to visit, came up to my room and walked in, and I turned around to something else, and all I heard was, what's this?[0:06:24] Brianne Davis: Oh, my God. Did your stomach drop?[0:06:27] John: That's one way of putting it in.[0:06:30] Brianne Davis: Okay. What happened?[0:06:31] John: We're like sheer panic.[0:06:33] John: Yeah.[0:06:34] John: And it's like, adjoked by folks.[0:06:37] Brianne Davis: How old were you at the time?[0:06:39] John: Between 16 and 18. And she never did she pretty much.[0:06:46] Brianne Davis: Just kept that secret?[0:06:48] John: Yeah. She pretty much said, this is normal. Looking at this kind of stuff is normal, and sat down and just looked through them. And she, like, recognized some of the celebrities. The other two were by choice. This is what I've been doing.[0:07:08] Brianne Davis: Who were they?[0:07:09] John: Just good friends.[0:07:10] Brianne Davis: Okay. And what they say?[0:07:12] John: Pretty much same thing. Like that kind of stuff is normal.[0:07:15] John: Yeah.[0:07:15] Brianne Davis: Looking at porno images and all that is completely normal. But the difference between yours is that they're fake and you know they're fake. So what about it? Do you like that aspect of it that I'm curious about, that you know they're not real, but you still like them.[0:07:31] John: Well, I guess the closest fantasy, because some celebrities will never do, like, nude scenes or pose nude for magazines. Like, my favorite actress, for example. One of my favorite actresses is named Danielle Panabaker. She'll never do, like, nude scenes or anything like that, so I kind of look at the fakes. This is kind of fantasy.[0:08:02] Brianne Davis: Yeah, it's complete fantasy. And do you think with looking at those, that it keeps you distant from having a relationship in real life or no.[0:08:14] John: You mean like a girlfriend or yeah, not really. I kind of don't have much interest in a girlfriend at this point.[0:08:25] Brianne Davis: Oh, really? Have you ever had a girlfriend?[0:08:27] John: No, I've just never had the interest.[0:08:31] Brianne Davis: Okay, here's my question for you. When did you start looking at pornographic images? At what age do you think?[0:08:39] John: REM high school days.[0:08:41] Brianne Davis: High school?[0:08:44] John: I think the first one was Playboy.[0:08:46] Brianne Davis: So when we look at those images a lot and I've done a lot of work around this, it desensitizes our own sexuality, because then the fantasy is more it becomes everything instead of the reality. The reality of a person being with another person or a woman doesn't match the fantasy. Do you think that's true?[0:09:10] John: I guess it depends. Now, with fakes, usually people get aroused by this stuff. I don't.[0:09:21] Brianne Davis: You don't? No, not at all.[0:09:24] John: Well, I mean, back when I first started collecting, maybe. No.[0:09:29] Brianne Davis: So interesting. Not at all. So when you look at it and it's just like, oh, that's a great fake, they did a good job with taking her face and putting it on. That's what you look at mostly than the nude.[0:09:43] John: Yeah, pretty much. Like, a few years ago, I used to use fakes as wallpapers on, like, my tablet.[0:09:50] Brianne Davis: Yeah.[0:09:51] John: But now I don't do that much anymore.[0:09:54] Brianne Davis: Okay.[0:09:55] John: Mostly because I go out in public a lot now.[0:09:58] Brianne Davis: So you're getting out of the house?[0:10:00] John: Yeah.[0:10:01] Brianne Davis: That's probably why you've been doing less, do you believe? Because you said it's been, like, less used to do it every day and now you're doing it weekly.[0:10:10] John: Yeah, it's actually possible. I have a few friends I hang out with, and so that kind of helps.[0:10:18] Brianne Davis: It does help. It does help. I believe when we are stuck with these images, especially when they are fantasy, when we deny ourselves that authentic connection with other human beings, we miss out. And the moment you open yourself up to that and you're getting out of the computer screen with these images and with actual friends, that's what is a real connection.[0:10:41] John: And I think I started heavily collecting quite a few years ago because of grief?[0:10:48] John: Yeah.[0:10:49] Brianne Davis: What were you going through?[0:10:50] John: My mom died from cancer about 1011 years ago, and that's about when I started heavily collecting.[0:10:59] John: Yeah.[0:10:59] Brianne Davis: That's where you found comfort, right?[0:11:01] John: Yeah.[0:11:02] Brianne Davis: Not feeling alone. A huge loss.[0:11:05] John: Yeah. And I read this article online about how one guy got into fakes and it completely destroyed his life.[0:11:15] John: Yeah.[0:11:16] Brianne Davis: What did he say in the article? Why it destroyed his life.[0:11:19] John: He decided to start looking at fakes at his place of employment. I can safely say I've never done.[0:11:31] Brianne Davis: You haven't done that?[0:11:32] John: No. But the article also did the flip side where it actually saved somebody's life because I guess, like me, they lost their mother.[0:11:42] John: Yeah.[0:11:43] John: And they were thinking about ending stuff, so I guess that saved them.[0:11:49] Brianne Davis: Well, it did, because we reach for those outside things that we feel connected to, and it doesn't feel safe with another human being, especially if you lost somebody so important to you so they can give you that outlet of connection.[0:12:02] John: Yeah, I can agree with that.[0:12:04] Brianne Davis: Have you been doing work on the loss and the trauma of it with your mom?[0:12:09] John: Yeah, I had a therapist for a while. I think I'm kind of there now. Not easy. Never really all that easy.[0:12:19] Brianne Davis: No, grief is never easy. We run from grief. But are you finally feeling like you've felt it and moving through it?[0:12:27] John: Yeah, I think so. I've also got friends I talked to about it, too.[0:12:32] Brianne Davis: Oh, good.[0:12:34] John: One of my friends went through the same thing, actually.[0:12:38] Brianne Davis: Well, that always helps when I'm going through a hard time to find a group of people that have been through similar situations and they have them online. All over online as well. Grief and loss groups.[0:12:50] John: Yeah. I found this app, actually, called Seven Cups. Kind of like a sort of therapy app where you can go and talk to people.[0:12:59] John: Yeah.[0:13:00] John: And it's kind of helped me a bit.[0:13:02] Brianne Davis: Good.[0:13:03] John: Now, I have to admit, back when this all happened, I did used to make them.[0:13:09] Brianne Davis: You did used to make them for a short period. And what did that feel like when you were actually making the fake nude photos of celebrities?[0:13:18] John: That's hard to describe. Proud that I made one that looked decent, actually, because I still have one I made that is still my favorite.[0:13:29] Brianne Davis: What is it? Who is it?[0:13:31] John: Her name is Cody Depblo from the TV show NCIS. And it was like a lingerie style fake, not even nude. And that's still my favorite one I've made.[0:13:44] Brianne Davis: I know her. She's very nice. But here's the thing. I did want to ask you this, and I know probably our listeners are wondering, do you ever think of the actual person you're doing the nude of? Like, when you're cutting out their face or you're seeing their face and you know that's not them? Do you ever actually think of that.[0:14:06] John: Person in what way?[0:14:08] Brianne Davis: I don't know. If they choose not to be nude and then someone puts their face on a new body, have you ever thought about how that could make them feel?[0:14:16] John: Yeah, that's kind of why I stopped.[0:14:19] Brianne Davis: Oh, tell me about it. So you had that thought. What was the feelings that came up?[0:14:23] John: Pretty much just yeah, maybe they don't want this. Yeah, let's not do this.[0:14:28] John: Yeah.[0:14:29] Brianne Davis: That they're a human being as well.[0:14:31] John: Yeah, pretty much that.[0:14:32] John: Yeah.[0:14:33] Brianne Davis: And do you think that was one of the reasons about hanging out with friends more, getting out into the world and then that realization that they're humans as well?[0:14:41] John: Yeah, quite a bit, actually. And I haven't made one in seven, nine years.[0:14:49] Brianne Davis: Well, it seems like you're kind of an artist, too. Have you ever thought of trying to do something even different with your art because you enjoy art?[0:14:57] John: It seems like I kind of have. I've started not officially, not like paid stuff, just editing images into wallpapers and just like posting it to a deviant arc page.[0:15:14] Brianne Davis: I think you'd be great at it. There's something in it that inspires you, and I think it takes dedication and you have that. I don't know.[0:15:23] John: Yeah, I used to have something that was like that, but I used to write quite a bit.[0:15:28] Brianne Davis: Maybe it's time to pick it back up.[0:15:30] John: The issue is, ever since my mother died, I've had writer's block.[0:15:35] Brianne Davis: I know. And believe me, I know, writer's block and all that and trauma and all that, but it's like maybe you reaching out to me and wanting to come on and share the secret isn't a way for you to step through it now.[0:15:49] John: Yeah, that could be a good way of looking at it. And I've started dabbling with writing a bit more.[0:15:56] John: Good.[0:16:00] Brianne Davis: Well, I'm so grateful you came on. I'm so grateful to have this conversation. I never expected to have this conversation. It's been beautiful and I understanding so much. And thank you for reaching out to me.[0:16:14] John: Yeah, no problem.[0:16:15] Brianne Davis: And if you want to be on the show, please email me at secretlifepodcast@icloud.com. Until next time.[0:16:27] Brianne Davis: Thanks again for listening to the show. Please subscribe rate share or send me a note at secretlifepodcast.com. And if you like to check out my book, head over to secretlifenovel.com or Amazon to pick up a copy for yourself or someone you love. Thanks again.[0:16:44] Brianne Davis: See you soon.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

There are certain age milestones where you should really pay attention to your retirement planning progress. On this episode, we'll look at the most important birthdays as you approach retirement and cover the exact things you should be checking off your to-do list at each age. Helpful Information: PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/ Contact: 813-286-7776 Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.com Disclaimer: PFG Private Wealth Management, LLC is a registered investment adviser. All statements and opinions expressed are based upon information considered reliable although it should not be relied upon as such. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments, or investment strategies. Investment involve risk and, unless otherwise stated, are not guaranteed. Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives and is not intended as recommendations appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek advice from a qualified tax, legal, or investment adviser to determine whether any information presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative of future performance. Transcript of Today's Show: For a full transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/ ----more---- Mark: Hey, everybody. Welcome into another addition of the podcast. This is Retirement Planning Redefined, with John and Nick and myself, talking investing, finance, retirement, and birthdays.   Mark: We're going to get into important birthdays in the retirement planning process. As we get older, I don't think any of us really want birthdays, but these are some things we need to know. They're pretty useful. Some of this is pretty basic. Some of this stuff's got some interesting caveats in it as well. So you might learn something along the way. It can go a long way towards that retirement planning process.   Mark: We're going to get into that and take an email question as well. If you've got some questions of your own, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com.   Mark: John, what's going on, buddy? How you doing?   John: A little tired. Got woken up at 2:00 in the morning with two cranky kids.   Mark: Oh yeah.   John: So if I'm a little off today, I apologize.   Mark: There you go. No, no worries. You get the whole, they climb the bed, and then you're on the tiniest sliver?   John: I got one climb into bed, I think kicked me in the face at one point.   Mark: Oh, nice.   John: Another one climbed into bed missing out on the other one, because they share a room. Then I had the sliver. I woke up almost falling off the bed.   Mark: There you go. And usually freezing because you have no blankets.   John: Yeah, yeah.   Mark: That's usually the way it goes. Nick's sitting there going, "I don't know what you guys are talking about."   Mark: What's going on, buddy. How you doing?   Nick: Yep. No. Pretty low maintenance over here.   Mark: Well, that's good. Hey, don't you have a birthday coming up?   Nick: I got a couple months still.   Mark: Okay, a couple months.   Nick: Yeah, I just got back from a trip a few weeks ago. Some buddies that I grew up with, a group of us have been friends for a really long time, I guess, going back to middle school. We're all turning 40 this year, so we rented a house in Charleston, and all survived.   Mark: Nice. There you go.   Nick: Yeah. It was good.   John: This is how you know Nick's turning 40. He came back with neck pain.   Mark: Exactly.   Nick: Yeah.   Mark: Hey, when you start to get a certain age, you start going, "When did I hurt that?" It's like, "I didn't even do anything." Yeah. You don't have to do anything.   Mark: Well, you know what? That's a good segue. Let's jump into this.   Mark: We're going to start with age 50. I turned 50 last year. First of all, the thing that sucks is you get the AARP card. I don't know about all that. That's annoying as a reminder that you're 50.   Mark: But the government does say, "Hey, let me help you out a little bit here if you need to catch up on some of the retirement accounts, help building those up." Talk to me about catch up contributions, guys.   Nick: Yeah. Essentially what happens is when you hit 50, there's two types of accounts that allow you to start contributing a little bit more money. The most basic one is an IRA or a Roth IRA, where the typical maximum contribution for somebody under 50 is 6,000 a year. You can add an additional thousand to do a total of 7,000 a year. The bigger one is in a 401(k) or 403(b) account, where you're able to contribute, I believe it's an extra 6,500 per year.   Nick: This is also a good flag for people to think about where, hey, once that catch up contribution is available, it's probably a good time, if you haven't done any sort of planning before, to really start to dial in and understand your financial picture a little bit more. Because if you talk to anybody that's 60, they'll tell you that 50 didn't seem too far back. So that's a good reminder to dig into that a little bit.   Mark: Yeah. It adds up. It's not necessarily chicken feed. You might hear it and think, "Well, a thousand dollars on this type of account over a year, or 6,500 on the other type of account, whoopedidoo." But if you're 50 and you're going to 67, let say, for full retirement age, and we'll get to that in a little bit, that's 17 years of an extra seven grand. It's not exactly chicken feed, right?   Nick: No. It's going to be big money down the road.   Mark: Yeah, exactly. So that's 50.   Mark: John, talk to me about 55. This one's really similar to 59 and a half, which most of us are familiar with, but most people don't understand the rule at 55. So can you break that down a little bit?   John: Yeah. We don't see people utilize this too often, but an example would be let's say you're 50, 55, 56, and for whatever reason, you leave your current job. You have an opportunity, at that point...   John: Let's give a bad scenario. You get laid off. If you didn't have a nest egg saved up in savings, there's an opportunity to actually access some money from your 401(k) plan without penalty. What you'll do is, basically, you take the money directly from the plan, and you just have it go to your bank account, and the 10% penalty's waived.   John: Now, some people need to be careful with this. Once you roll it out to an IRA, this 55 rule here, where the 10%'s waived, ceases to exist. It has to go from the employer plan to you directly in that situation. It's a nice feature if someone finds themselves in a bad situation, or they need access to money, and the 10% penalty's gone, but you still have to pay your income tax on that money [crosstalk 00:05:03]   Mark: Of course. Yeah. That caveat being, it's only from the job that you've just left, right? It can't be from two jobs ago kind of thing. It's got to be that one that you've just walked away from, or been asked to leave, or whatever the case is. That's that caveat.   John: Correct.   Mark: It's basically the same rules, Nick, as the 59 and a half. It's just is attached to that prior job. But 59 and a half is the more normal one. What's the breakdown there?   Nick: Yeah. Essentially what happens is, at 59 and a half, you are able to take out money from your qualified accounts while avoiding that penalty without any sort of caveats. One thing to keep in mind is that usually you're taking it out from accounts that...   Nick: For example, if you're currently employed, the process of taking it out of the plan where you're employed can be a little bit different, but it's pretty smooth and easy if you have an IRA or something like that outside of the employer plan.   Nick: One other thing that happens in most plans, for people at 59 and a half, is, and we've seen it a bunch lately, where a lot of 401(k) plans have very restricted options in fixed income and those sorts of things, where most or many plans allow people to take inservice rollovers, where they're able to still work at their employer, but roll their money out of the plan to open up some options for investments outside of the plan.   Nick: That's not always the best thing for people. Sometimes the plans are great. Fees are really low. Options are great. So it may not make sense, but oftentimes people do like having the option to be able to shift the money out without any sort of issue.   Mark: Okay. All right. So that's the norm there. You got to love that half thing. You always wonder what the senators or whoever was thinking when [crosstalk 00:06:56]   John: Finally, they got rid of the 70 and a half [crosstalk 00:06:58]   Mark: Yeah. They get rid of that one. Yeah. We'll get to that in just a minute as well.   Mark: John, 62, nothing too groundbreaking here, but we are eligible finally for Social Security. So that becomes... I guess the biggest thing here is people just go, "Let me turn it on ASAP versus is it the right move?"   John: Yeah. So 62, you're now eligible. Like you said, a lot of people are excited to finally get access to that extra income. You can start taking on Social Security.   John: Couple of things to just be aware of is, any time you take Social Security before your full retirement age, you will get a reduction of benefit. At 62, it's anywhere, depending on your full retirement age, roughly 25 to 30% reduction of what you would've gotten had you waited till 66 or 67.   Mark: They penalize you, basically.   John: Yeah.   Nick: Yeah. Actually, if you do the math, it ends up breaking down to almost a half a percent per month reduced.   Mark: Oh wow.   Nick: Yeah. It really starts to add up when you think about it that way.   John: Yeah. We always harp on planning, so important if you are thinking about taking it early, once you make that decision, and after a year of doing that, you're locked into that decision. So it's important to really understand is that best for your situation.   John: Other things to consider at this age, if you do take early, Social Security does have what they call a earnings penalty slash recapture. If you're still working and taking at 62, a portion of your Social Security could be subject to go back to them in lieu of, for a better term, [crosstalk 00:08:27]   Mark: It's 19,000 and some change, I think, this year, if you make more than that.   John: Yeah.   Mark: Yeah.   John: Yeah. Anything above 19,000 that you're earning, 50% goes back to Social Security. [crosstalk 00:08:36]   Mark: Yeah. For every two bucks you make-   John: 5,000 goes back to Social Security. So that's really important.   John: Something that I just want to make, last point on this, is that earnings threshold is based on someone's earned income, and it's based on their own earned income, not household. That comes up quite a bit, while people say, "Well, I want to retire and take at 62, but my husband's still working. Am I going to have a penalty if I take it?" The answer is no. It's based on your own earnings record.   Mark: That's where the strategy comes into play too. Because if you are married, then looking at who's making more, do we leave one person's to grow, as we're going to get into those in just a second, to grow towards that more full number.   Mark: Again, that's all the strategy. It may make sense for one person to turn it on early, and the other person to delay it. That's, again, part of the strategy of sitting down and talking with a professional, and looking at all the other assets that you have, and figuring out a good move there.   Mark: Nick, let's go to Medicare. 65 magic age.   Nick: Yeah. Actually, my dad turns 65 this year. So we've been planning this out for him. He is a retired fireman, so he has some benefits that tie in with his pension.   Nick: One of the things that came up, and just something that people should think about or remember, even if they are continuing to work past 65, is it oftentimes makes sense to at least enroll in Medicare Part A. You can usually enroll as early as three months before your birthday. The Medicare website has gotten a lot easier to work with over the last year or two.   Nick: Part A, the tricky thing is that you want to check with your employer, because usually what happens for the areas that Part A covers, which is usually hospital care, if you were to have to be admitted or certain procedures, it's figuring out who's the primary payer, who pays first, who pays second. So making sure that you coordinate your benefits. Check in with HR, if you're going to continue to work.   Nick: If you are retired and are coming up on that Medicare age, make sure that you get your ducks in a row so that you do enroll. Most likely you're going to start saving some money on some healthcare premiums.   Mark: Technically, this starts about, what, three months early? It's a little actually before 65. I think it's three months when you got to start this process, and three months before and after.   Nick: Yep. Yeah. You can typically enroll three months before your birthday, and then through three months afterwards. There can be some issues if you don't enroll and you don't have other healthcare, at least for Part A. There can be penalties and that sort of thing.   Nick: Frankly, with Medicare and healthcare in retirement, this is a space that we typically delegate out. We've got some good resources for clients that we refer them to, because there are a lot of moving parts, and it can be overwhelming, especially when you start to move into the supplements and Advantage plans, and all these different things.   Mark: Oh yeah. And it's crucial. You want to make sure you get it right. A lot of advisors will definitely work with some specialists, if you will, in that kind of arena. So definitely checking that out when we turn 65.   Mark: Again, some of these, pretty high level stuff, some of this stuff we definitely know. But we wanted to go over some of those more interesting caveats.   Mark: Let's keep moving along here, guys. Full retirement age, 66 or 67. John, just what? It's your birthday, right?   John: It is your birthday. That's the time that you can actually take your full Social Security benefit without any reduction, which is a great thing to do. Then also that earnings penalty we discussed earlier at age 62, that no longer exists. Once you hit your full retirement age, 66 or 67, you can earn as much as you want and collect your Social Security. There's no penalty slash recapture.   John: When that happens, people have some decisions to make. If they're still working, they can decide to take their Social Security. I've had some clients that take it, and they use that as vacation money. I've had some other ones take it, and they take advantage of maxing out their 401(k) with the extra income. Or you can delay it. You don't have to take it. You get 8% simple interest on your benefit up until age 70.   John: So full retirement age, you got a lot of big decisions to make, depending on your situation. But you want to make sure you're making the best for what you want.   Mark: Definitely.   Nick: Just as a reminder to people that that 8%, and you had mentioned it, but it does cap out at age 70. So there's no point in waiting past 70, because it doesn't increase any more.   Mark: Right. Thanks for doing that. It wasn't on my list, but I was going to bring it up real fast. So yeah. People will sometimes email and they'll say, "Hey, I want to keep working past 70. How's that affect Social Security." It's like, "Well, you're maxed out, so you got to just go ahead and get it done." You can still work if you're feeling like it. Your earnings potential is unlimited, but it's just a matter of you're not going to add any more to it. So I'm glad you brought that up.   Mark: John, you mentioned earlier, they got rid of the other half. Thank God. The 70 and a half thing, just because it was confusing as all get out. They moved it to 72.   Nick: Yeah. Required minimum distributions, as a reminder for people, are for accounts that are pre-tax, where you were able to defer taxation. 401(k), traditional IRA, that sort of thing. At 72, you have to start taking out minimum distributions. It starts at around 3.6, 3.7% of the balance. It's based on the prior year's ending balance. It has to be taken out by the end of the year.   Nick: An important thing for people to understand is that, many times, people are taking those withdrawals out to live on anyways. So for a lot of people, it's not an issue at all. However, there are a good amount of people that it's going to be excess income.   Nick: Earlier mentioned, hey, at age 50, really time to check in and start making sure that you're planning. One of the benefits of planning and looking forward is to project out and see, hey, are these withdrawal going to cause you to have excess income at 72, where maybe we're entering into a time that tax rates could be higher, tax rates could be going up, which is fairly likely in the next five to 10 years. So if we know and we can project that, then we can make some adjustments to how we save, should you be putting more money into a Roth versus a traditional, and how we make adjustments on the overall planning.   Nick: So making sure that you understand how those work, and then the impact that it has on other decisions to take into account for that situation, is a huge part of planning.   Mark: Definitely. Those are some important birthdays along the way. You got to make sure you get this stuff done. 72, there's the hefty penalties involved if you don't do that. Plus you still got to pay the taxes. All this stuff has some crucial moments in that retirement planning process, so definitely make sure that you are not only celebrating your birthday, but you're also doing the right things from that financial and that retirement planning standpoint along the way.   Mark: Again, if you got questions, stop by the website, pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. You can drop us an email question as well, if you'd like. That's what we're going to do to wrap up the show right now.   Mark: We got a question that's sent in from Jack. He says, "Hey, guys. I've thought about meeting with a financial advisor to plan my retirement, but I've never used a budget or anything like that before. So I'm wondering, should I budget myself for a couple of months before I meet with a professional?"   Nick: Based upon experience, putting expense numbers down on paper is one of the biggest hurdles for people to get into planning. But with how this question is phrased, I would be concerned, because it's kind of like the situation of starting a diet. You start a diet. You're going to eat really good for two to three weeks. You're trying to hold yourself accountable. You're functioning in a way that isn't necessarily your normal life.   Nick: One of the things, as advisors, that we want to make sure that we understand are what are you really spending. It's great to use a budget, but if you're budgeting to try to look good in the meeting, which we've seen happen, you're painting a false picture, and you're not letting us know what the finances actually look like.   Nick: So I would actually say to put down the real expense numbers in place, let's see what it really looks like, and then if we need to create a budget after we've created a plan, then that's something that we can dig into.   Mark: Yeah. John, let me ask you, as we wrap this up, sometimes people associate seeing a professional financial advisor with a budget. Also, people have a cringe to the B word. They think, "Well, I don't want to live on a fixed budget," or something like that.   Mark: That's not necessarily what we're talking about, right? That's not probably what Jack is referring to. He's just trying to figure out, I guess, more income versus expenses, right?   John: Yeah, yeah. The first step is to analyze your expenses. That could be what he's referring to as far as, "Hey, should I take a look? Should I get my expenses down before I meet with someone?"   John: I'd agree with Nick, even if that's what you're looking at, versus the budgeting, I would say no. I think the first step is sit down with an advisor, because they can assist in categorizing the expenses correctly based on today's expenses, versus what expenses are going to be at retirement.   John: I think it's important just to get going rather than trying to prep. Because we've seen a lot of people that have taken ... They've been prepping for years to meet. That's years where they haven't done anything, and they've, unfortunately, lost out on some good opportunities, otherwise, if they just said, "Hey, I'm going to sit down first, see what's going on."   Mark: Yeah. It gives you that built-in excuse.   John: [crosstalk 00:18:26]   Mark: It gives you that built in, "Well, I'm not quite ready." Well, you might never be ready if you play that game. Especially a lot of times when it's complimentary to sit down with professionals, have a conversation. Most advisors will talk to you, no cost or obligations. So why not right? Find out. Just get the ball rolling. That's the first step. It's usually the hardest part too.   Nick: Yeah. One thing that we typically tell people is that we are not the money police. We are not here to tell you that you can't use your money the way that you want to use it.   Nick: The way that we view ourselves, and what our role is as an advisor, is to help you understand the impact of decisions. Whether those decisions have to do with spending money, saving money, whatever, it's to make sure that you understand the impact of your decisions so that you make better decisions. That's it.   Mark: There you go. Yeah. It's your money, at the end of the day, your call, but certainly having some good, well, coaches in your corner, if you will, advisors to help advise, that's the whole point. But I like that. Not the money police.   Mark: All right. That's going to do it this week, guys. Thanks for hanging out. As always, we appreciate your time here on Retirement Planning Redefined. Don't forget. Stop by the website.   Mark: If you need help before you take any action, we always talk in generalities, and try to share some good nuggets of information, but you always want to see how those things are going to affect your specific situation.   Mark: If you're already working with John and Nick and the team at PFG Private Wealth, fantastic. Then you already have a lot of this stuff in place. But if you have questions, or you're not working with them, or you've come across this podcast in whatever way, or maybe a friend shared it with you, definitely reach out and have a chat. pfgprivatewealth.com. That's pfgprivatewealth.com. Don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcasting platform app you like to use.   Mark: We'll see you next time here on the show. For John and Nick, I'm your host, Mark. We'll catch you later here on Retirement Planning Redefined.

Today, I am very happy to have with me a former client of mine and he’s very brave to be willing to talk about fear of flying in a straightforward manner!   John: Hi. This is Doctor John Dacey with my weekly podcast, New Solutions to the Anxiety Epidemic. Today, I am very happy to have with me a former client of mine and he’s very brave to be willing to talk about everything straightforward. His name is Bob and I’m really happy to have him in the studio today. Hey Bob, how are you? Bob: Good, John. Glad to be here. John: Now the major thing when I typically deal with former clients, is I ask them the 8 kinds of anxiety and have them talk about what it felt like and what they did to be successful, but in your particular case, it was very clear what you needed to deal with was fear of flying. Could you talk a little bit, Bob, about how you came to be a fearful flyer? You were flying to France and a whole lot of places and then all of a sudden something happened, isn’t that right? Bob: Yeah, I never had trouble flying before. I few all over to Europe and had no trouble in planes whatsoever, but I got married, and this was quite a long time ago. John: Where did you get married then? Bob: I got married in Finland. John: Oh Finland. Ok. Bob: Finland. My wife was Finnish, we met in Paris, and then she went back to Finland and I went back to join her and we got married after knowing each other for about 2 months or so. We had a honeymoon, by cruise, in the Mediterranean, and then we flew back to the United States from Milan. It was on the flight back that I had a totally unexpected panic attack. I can explain what it was like but looking back I realize, I was very ambivalent about the marriage. I was really of the feeling that maybe it was a mistake, that we knew each other for too short a time. John: Now let me just ask you a question there, Bob. So, you’re married, you had your honeymoon, etcetera, etcetera, and everything seems to be okay and then all of the sudden, something happened on this trip on the way back. Is that right? Bob: Right. I mean I did have my doubts, even going into the flight back. It wasn’t as if everything was totally hunky-dory and then completely out of the blue this happened, but I certainly didn’t expect—I had never had anything like this before. John: On the other hand, this is the first time she’s going to be meeting your parents, your relatives, your friends, is this correct? Bob: Well actually my parents had flown over for the wedding. John: Oh I see. Ok. Bob: But you know, this is the first time that she’s coming to the states. She was a very successful journalist and artist in Finland and she gave all that up to come over here with me. John: Can I interrupt you once again? I’m sorry to do that. You’re rather accomplished yourself. Would you tell us a little bit about your own educational background? Bob: Yeah. Well, I’m a biochemist. I have a Ph.D. in chemistry from Yale. I graduated Columbia Undergraduate and I had post oped in a couple of places, one of them which was Paris. We were coming back here where I was going to take up a position at Boston University in the Chemistry department. John: So you have pretty high standards I can imagine. Bob: Well you might say. You know, I was very excited about everything and looking forward to an academic career and my wife had, again, given up everything to come here with me so I felt quite a sense of responsibility for her. I had to really introduce her to the United States, how to go shopping in markets, and just ordinary everyday things. And also, to help her get a job over here. But on the plane, suddenly I felt very strong claustrophobia. I felt trapped in the plane, that I couldn’t get out. These were feelings that I had never really had before. John: Why would you want to get out, Bob? Bob: Yeah, I mean I wouldn’t want to get out. There’s absolutely no reason. In that sense, it made no sense, but looking back on it, I was also feeling trapped in this marriage even right at the beginning and that maybe played into this feeling of being trapped in the airplane. And it was pretty awful. It was a kind of panic attack. My breathing got sort of short and I didn’t feel I was going to die. I just felt I was in an impossible situation where I was trapped and couldn’t get out. John: So, naturally, you assumed that being on the airplane was part of this whole thing. Bob: Yeah, right. John: And that’s why after being a fearless flyer for a long time—this is what amazes people—in one experience, it went from being perfectly comfortable to perfectly terrifying. Bob: Exactly right. Exactly right. That was part of the problem because it was so unexpected and I had never had anything like this before. I was not an anxious person, I didn’t have these kinds of anxieties before. I had the normal anxieties, you know, like before a final exam or something like that, that everybody has, but I never had these kinds of feelings before. So, we got back to the states and I had a number of phobias I guess you’d call them, that were connected, I suppose, to this that I had never had before: a phobia of heights, a fear of elevators, being trapped in a subway if it’s stopped between stations. A whole bunch of phobias that were kind of connected to being trapped in some way. John: So I can understand this. You sort of transferred being psychologically trapped in the marriage to being physically trapped in these various situations, which in fact you were. If you go up in an elevator, for a short time you are trapped. Bob: Right. That’s what they all had in common. John: And for a long time on an airplane, especially in an intercontinental flight like that, you’re trapped for quite a while. Bob: That’s right. The next summer, we went back to Finland, to visit her family, and it was pretty awful for me because I knew how awful the flight would be and it was. And it’s a long flight. The flight there and back was pretty bad. That was the beginning of all of these. As I mentioned, I never had these anxieties before and it all sort of came crashing down. Meanwhile, I had to continue my work which I wanted to do as a biochemist and had students working with me and was teaching classes and meanwhile dealing with all this so it was quite difficult. John: Now as I said to you, we have a limited amount of time and I wonder if we can jump right into what you and I did. You came to see me about this, which was a brilliant plan on your part. I’m just kidding. However, what we did—tell us a little about what we did to deal with the flying. Bob: Well, we sort of worked in stages. We first spoke about what brought all this on, which I kind of summarized, in the first place. Then, we tried to imagine what it would be like in the plane, and then I worked with John on a simulator, a flight simulator that tried to give me an even stronger feeling than just talking about it, an actual visual feeling for being in the plane. Going up then landing, flying and then landing. Then we went out to the small private plane field and we looked around and gradually worked up where we first went on an airplane and it was a small Cessna and sat in the plane for a while to give my self a feeling for sitting in the plane. The next step we were in the plane and we just taxied around the field, we didn’t take off. John: By the way, we have a pilot with us, I remember, because even though I was with you, I’m also a student pilot so I couldn’t really take you up if I wanted to, but we did have an instructor and the company that did this with us was very understanding and really wanted to see you be able to fly again so they were perfectly willing to do these things like traveling around the airport. They got permission and they traveled around the airport on the ground at first to get you back to being used to it. Bob: Yeah, they were very supportive. John: And by the way, I think it’s important to add that the big difference in being on a super liner and this little pane is that you get 270 degrees of view from where you’re sitting up in the front, I was sitting in the back. Also, we had a pilot who if you say to him, “I have to go down right now,” he will do it. If you say that to a 747 pilot, they probably won’t do it. Bob: You’re in big trouble right. John: That’s right. Bob: The next time we actually took off and we circled around the airport and came down, and each time it git a little hard, but a little easier in a way. John: By the way, I want to add that I think we went out and did a little celebrating afterward, and it’s very important that you do celebrate, that you do have some really nice reward for doing this because that’s what cements the success feeling. Bob: Yes. Absolutely. Then we moved up to taking shorter flights on a regular commercial plane. We took Cape Air once to Hyannis and once I think it was to Provincetown. That worked out quite well. They’re small planes, but they’re commercial flights. John: Well you did a great job. You were very nervous and I believe that if you don’t mind me saying this, that you took one small tranquilizer just to help a little bit and we didn’t do that every time, but we did it in the beginning. Bob: Yes, and it really did help. I took some Ativan and that did help. John: Ativan is a great drug for that. Bob: Yes. And then after those, we really graduated, I did to commercial jets, we took a flight to New York. I think we took two flights to New York and then I did one with my girlfriend without John and then I went to visit a friend in Washington, DC, which was for me a real triumph. John: By yourself. Bob: That was the longest one. Yeah, it was by myself. John: I was so proud of you because that was a really big jump and you did wonderfully well. Bob: I was a little trepidatious but it worked out fine and that was the last flight and you know it’s been a few years, but I wouldn’t have any trouble taking those flights again and I’m still hoping to reach for the stars in a way, and get back to my beloved Paris. John: We’re going to get you back to Paris, Bob. That’s the plan. Well, I want to thank you so much for giving your testimony here today. I’m sure there’s a lot of listeners, we have over 6 thousand listeners now, I don’t know if I told you. It’s just wonderful and of course, we’re talking about the Corona Virus sometimes, but mostly it’s about stories like yours. You’re proud of yourself and I have to say, I’m very proud of you also. Bob: And I’ve enjoyed working with you so much, John. You’ve made all the difference to me. All the difference. John: Well thank you so much. Thanks a million. And I’ll talk to you folks next week.

John: Hey there friends and fellow farmers. Welcome to another episode of The Growing Farms podcast. I am your host, John Suscovich, and today's episode is going to be an "Ask APPPA" show, the American Pasture and Poultry Producers Association.   At one of the annual APPPA conferences I brought my camera, I brought my microphone, I brought my friend Mike, and we recorded interviews with about two dozen people.  I asked those two dozen people the same four questions. And the wonderful thing about this community is that our heart, the core mission of what we're trying to do, is build healthy soil and we do that by raising animals on pasture.    Now we are all there for the same reason, to learn and grow together, we are all bringing our own level of commitment, our own piece to the puzzle to those annual conferences and that is great.    Today's episode is going to be with Ginger Shields of Pastured Life Farm located in North Central Florida and the first question that I asked Ginger was:    “What is one thing you know now that you wish you knew when you were starting out? Your advice for the new guy.”   Ginger: My name is Ginger Shields, and I am from Pastured Life Farm located in North Central Florida.    I wish that I knew - when we began farming -- That it was okay to say no, that it was okay to say "We don't need to produce chickens year round".    We didn't need to have beef available 100% of the time. We didn't need to have pork available 100% of the time. It wasn't a sustainable model for a small farm to have everything for everyone all the time. We carried a tremendous amount of burden. Like "We have to produce more, we have to produce more", so we don't have to tell people no and we scaled up faster than what we were ready for.    So I really wish that I had known or could go back to my former self and say "It’s okay. You can tell people no. You can explain why we have seasons, why nature has seasons and why we replicate that in our farm model".   John: I really love that piece of advice. Something that I have heralded here on Farm Marketing Solutions is the desire, the need, the strategy of pushing consistency in your market. Having chicken available all the time so that when people want chickens you're the go-to person to provide it for them. I thought that was a core fundamental thing to have as part of your farm strategy. You know, especially if you want to get into wholesale accounts.   What Ginger highlighted here is that building the model around not only what the customer wants but what you want to do as a farmer is really important for the long-term viability and sustainability of you and your farm. If you're consistent with what you offer, when you offer it, and your messaging is clear, consistent, and concise it will be easy for people to do business with you. That is just a fantastic piece of advice.    If you don't like farming, you are not going to stick with it and that's hard. You know? It's like... why stick with something that you don't like to do? Which brings me into my next question. I asked Ginger:    What is the most enjoyable part about being a farmer.   Ginger: For us, for my husband and I - I am speaking for both of us - I believe that the most enjoyable aspect of farming is that we get to work with people that we like. We get to work with our family, we get to work with our kids, and we get to be together.    I am not sending my husband off for his 9-5 job, packing his lunch and he's coming home miserable after spending an hour and a half in traffic, and we're not apart for sixteen hours a day. We're working together. We both want to work on our farm, better our farm, and work with our kids and teach them the values and the morals and things that they can't learn anywhere else but on our farm.    John: That was a great answer, Ginger. I really appreciate the feedback; and for me, that also -- You know, I'm just going to say "ditto".    The fact is that I’m usually working pretty long hours. But I’m always close by so if my family needs me or wants to come find me they know where I am. I get to work with friends, business partners who are my friends, and I love the staff here at the farm or the brewery -- We just have the most amazing people and that makes the day to day very enjoyable.    At times it is a grind. Not every day is a holiday, but the fact that I am a member of APPPA and I have all of those people to turn to, I have a wonderful business here in Western Connecticut; and that  my family is around all the time, I can structure my schedule around people instead of work...    It's a lot of work hours but I can structure my schedule to be around for dinners, to be around for school send-offs... If there is something that needs to get done in the family, my family always comes first; and the fact that I get to work and live around all these amazing people is why I did this in the first place.   Being self-sufficient is kind of a farce. You know? Being out in isolation by yourself is depressing and very difficult because you're not going to be able to do everything by yourself. So to surround yourself with wonderful people - I have that community, I have that connection, and I have that strength.    For when I am feeling weak, there is someone there to help prop me up, and when someone else in my community is not feeling 100% I am there to prop them up. There’s been a really good balance through the years. So for me, that has been valuable as well and I appreciate Ginger - your response to that question.    Now my next question - because this is Farm Marketing Solutions and that's what the channel and the podcast is all about - I wanted to know, Ginger:    What is one of your greatest marketing/farm marketing successes and how did you get there, and then what is one of your biggest struggles - and then what do you do about that?    Ginger: For our farm our biggest marketing success has been the ability to put ourselves out there. To become comfortable and confident in what we're doing; thanks to organizations like the American Pasture and Poultry Producers Association we have become confident in our practices, confident that we're bettering our environment, we're bettering the soil, and that the chicken that we're producing is far superior to anything that's available in the grocery stores.   Having those tools in our pocket to be able to approach customers, approach people at meetings like at Weston A. Price Chapter meetings, or at a CrossFit gym where we might pop in during a session and talk about our product. We find strength in having those tools, education, and information available for us to share. Also, confidence in our product that we didn't have when we were first starting out.  Our biggest marketing struggle has been definitely making the time. Marketing - it's another job! You're a farmer, you're a family, you're a mom, you're a dad... but you're also a marketer and a salesman. You have to make yourself make the time to market your farm. You have to schedule that time into your already busy, crazy life. That's our biggest marketing struggle and our biggest marketing failure. It's our area that we plan to improve on the most for the next few years; is to just work on our marketing.    Our markets are changing. Our customers are changing. Our demographics are changing. We have people much younger than us that are having food awakenings - we need to be able to reach them and it's a challenge to keep up with it.   John: Now that is a great response because a lot of people get into farming because they're introverted. Being out in the field by yourself, you spend a lot of time alone. A lot of farmers like to grow, fix, nurture, animal husbandry or however you verbalize or verb that, but not all of us are outgoing.    It's amazing that you might hear me say that I -- I have recorded 650 or pushing 700 videos now, and I still get uncomfortable when someone else is just watching me record. I am comfortably down here in my basement, talking to a camera alone with my dog asleep on the floor. That is where my comfort zone is, and it has been a journey for me to be comfortable enough to walk into a room and be like "Hey everybody, how are you doing? My name is John Suscovich".    That is something that I have worked on over time and being comfortable putting yourself out there, sharing that information... You are passionate about agriculture. Otherwise you are not -- Why are you listening to this podcast or watching this video on YouTube? Because you want to do this. There is a reason why you are committed.    You're following Farm Marketing Solutions because you're starting to make a business out of farming or you are looking at a lifestyle change. There is something in you that motivates you. It drives you to get back to the land, to live a healthier lifestyle, to produce food that is nutritious and supports your community, and that is amazing.    That passion, that heart, that fire that you feel right here... share that with people! Don't be afraid. And with me, you know... there's a lot of fish in the sea. I give farm tours every weekend. Sometimes my jokes land and sometimes they don't. I have learned to read a room and see how that conversation is going.    Putting yourself out there... you do it and you're going to fail sometimes. Then you're going to do it, and you're going to succeed sometimes. You're going to be like "That farmer's market rocked!" or "That conversation that I had with that person really went well!" and when it goes well or if it goes poorly, learn from those circumstances. If it went really well, why did it go well? Because you connected around a certain topic or idea. Is that something that you can reach other people with? If it didn't go well, was it because you misstepped or misspoke or maybe it wasn't the right person?    Think about sales as dating. You're not going to date everybody. Not everybody is going to be a perfect match. You're going to have good customers and you're going to have bad customers. You're going to have easy customers and you're going to have hard customers. You shouldn't spend all your time trying to convert people. You should serve the people who want what you already have to offer. It's a little bit easier to sell that way. And you're going to find those people by sharing your passion, sharing your ideals, sharing your story, sharing your name on your website. Please.    It becomes easier over time, but I'll tell you - it can be a struggle. So just have the confidence in yourself to put your heart out there. Get hurt a little bit. Come back from it. Chickens are going to die. Cows are going to die. Crops are going to go bad. Sales are going to be lost. But also... Chickens are going to grow. Cows are going to grow. The grass is going to grow. The sun always shines at some point and it does get a little easier with time.    Now, because I recorded these at an APPPA conference - The American Pasture and Poultry Producers Association, APPPA.org, I wanted to know:    What are the benefits of joining APPPA? What are the benefits of going to the conference? What do people get out of being a part of this organization?    For me, I am a paying member. I have an annual subscription that I renew. I get the newsletters. I am part of the forum. It's amazing! I just learn so much all the time -- And for when I can't answer other peoples' questions, I post questions on the forum and get answers back from people all over the country. It's really amazing.    So I asked Ginger: What is the best part about being an APPPA member and what is the best part about being at the conference?   Ginger: The biggest benefit to being an APPPA member is access. You have instant - almost - access to professionals producing twice as much, three times as much, or maybe even a hundred times as many chickens as you are.  They have been doing it longer, they have experienced the same failures that you have and if you can learn from another farmer's failures and prevent that failure yourself it's going to be so much easier for you in the long run if you can learn from another person's failure.    I can't remember who said this quote:    Anyone can learn from another person's success, but a truly intelligent person can learn from other's peoples' failures.    We all have a sharp learning curve as farmers and so if we are able to maybe lessen that curve, maybe lessen the blow a little bit, and maybe prevent some of those catastrophic things that naturally happen as farmers because we don't control the weather, we don't control the environment, and we don't control so many factors.   Who would choose a job where you have so little control over anything? It's like, "Why did I go into this job where there's a hundred outside variables that I have zero control over and still expect to have a good outcome?" What a terrible idea! But we all do it, right?    And that's where the APPPA conference becomes an invaluable tool; you get to see these farmers that you've been interacting with, maybe on the list serve or via email, and you get to be in the same room together. You get to commiserate a little bit together.    You get to shake each other's hands, understand each other's struggles, and nowhere else can you get a bunch of pastured poultry producers who are already kind of out here on the fringe in the same room and just be together - and that's really cool.   Nobody needs to have someone - another person - on the pulpit, selling you something, telling you what you should or shouldn't do. We need to be together. We're better together.    John: Ginger, that's a good plug, and I will add that Ginger is on the board of APPPA and has been a big inspiration for me. She is kind, caring, and tough as nails. She is everything you would want in one person, and just a great representation of what I feel the future of agriculture is.    She has been doing it for a while with her husband Dave and all of her children. She is now a good friend of mine. We text back and forth; and just the fact that she put herself out there and recorded the video for me - this was really great - and I want to thank you Ginger and Dave.  Dave's interview will be coming up in the future.   If you want to learn more about APPPA and how to become a member, you can go to APPPA.org.    I have over 100 episodes in the archives. You can find those on Google Podcasts, on iTunes, on Stitcher and on Spotify and probably a bunch of smaller stuff. If you can't find it on your platform, write in and we will submit the feed to that so that you can get it as well.   This is a new type of podcast that I am doing. I am going to publish these APPPA interviews as well as some farm updates through the year, now that I have this medium back again. I have fixed all the technical problems which feels really good.    Feel free to leave me an honest review on any of those pod-catching platforms. It helps the podcast get discovered.    Thanks for taking the time to listen and/or watch, because we're releasing this in both video and audio format on YouTube and all of the pod catching things. And until next time, I will see you on the field. 

Rhonda: Welcome to this episode of Divorce Conversations for Women. I'm your host, Rhonda Noordyk. There's one common thread facing everyone that's contemplating divorce or even in the midst of divorce, and that is, you don't know what you don't know, right? So I want to make sure to ask the tough questions so that you can get the answers that you need. In today's episode, we're going to dive into the topic of negotiation for women. This episode is sponsored by Courageous Contemplation, our online course. So, if you're contemplating divorce, I want you to check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. I am so excited today. I am joined with Nicole Martin and John Tinghitella. To learn more about Nicole and John, we've linked their website and additional information in the show notes. You can also check out their website at www.nofearnegotiation.com. I want to get started here today. I am so excited that you guys are here because I feel like this is a topic that definitely deserves to have its own podcast episode. So, I'm a woman facing divorce, right? What's the one thing that we want the women that are listening to know about negotiating? Nicole: It's so interesting, Rhonda, because I think that if you think of it with that directness of the question, the one thing I would say to a woman that's really thinking about negotiation is first the fact that it's a two-way discussion or conversation or exchange, and that they are worthy no matter what they are feeling or how they're feeling as they approach that table, that they are worthy equal in that conversation. And the question is, do they feel equal, first of all? Are they prepared in that conversation when they come forth? And are they also ready to listen? Because like I said, it's a two-way exchange. That's probably the first thing I would say. I don't know, John, what would you say? John: I think that's a really good starting point. I think the power to listen is crucial to any successful negotiation. But to back up even another step, negotiation is just another word for managing relationships. Negotiation tends to have a negative connotation in a lot of people's minds, which creates resistance, which creates people not wanting to do it, which usually means they end up with a bad result because they kind of faded out when they should have leaned in. But that said, the ability to listen upfront is absolutely crucial. There's also a realistic connotation to negotiation that needs to be addressed and managed. It's the fact that negotiations, by their nature, are highly competitive, and we have to be careful in a negotiation to realize there's a clear winner and loser. This is not a ballgame with a time clock and a score at the end. This is people managing their lives going forward, and everyone has to leave, not so much with a victory, but everyone has to leave with what matters to them. And Rhonda, in your discipline of managing women through the extremely difficult dynamic of divorce, they tend to be highly competitive, highly adversarial, and a lot of times there are winners and losers, and that's just not healthy. It's a horrible outcome and our goal is to have positive outcomes. Rhonda: And so I agree, and I love the perspective of it being built on relationships. I've got a client right now who is ... her attorney is a guy, then there's her husband and his attorney is a guy. And she's at the table feeling like nobody's listening to her. And so, the preparation part, I think, is super important, number one. And so I've been working behind the scenes with her to help prepare her to have some of those conversations. I think, Nicole, you mentioned the worthiness. Man, that is probably one of the most challenging pieces as women are going through divorce, their confidence has been shattered. Can we talk about the worthy piece? Do you have any suggestions or tips as they're going into this? And I don't like the whole fake it ‘til you make it thing, but I think ... Are there some specific things that women could be doing to build up, like, I'm worthy to have this conversation, and what I have to say is important? Nicole: Well, and we actually kind of put forth three letters with what we do with our process within negotiation specifically, No Fear Negotiation. And the first letter is M, and M really stands for changing your mindset. And I think for women, especially going through relationships, I can recall a particular instance for myself personally where almost every relationship that I'd had where it had come to an end and I was leaving, my counterpart in that relationship had actually driven me to a place of guilt where you're feeling like you weren't working hard enough or you didn't do enough or you need ... this is your fault that you're letting go and you're the quitter or something to that effect. And I would say that the strength that you derive as a woman through that exchange knowing that you're not to be made to feel less than and that you have tried, and feeling justified in the fact that maybe you've tried and you've come to this decision, because surely for a woman, by the time she's had that conversation, she's thought about it probably for months, if not years prior. So, she's already separated herself from it, but she can be drawn back in or even worse, just emotionally brought down. Nicole:  And I would say for a woman that's coming into that exchange, it's really important from a worthiness perspective to honor your internal voice and what you know is right for you. And knowing and having faith that you're a child of God and that that other individual is special and a child of God as are you, and it's your responsibility to speak truth, and it's your responsibility to walk in your truth. And when you're walking in your truth and you speak from a place of love, not anger, not rage, but love, where probably ... and hopefully something started, you can still love somebody and not be in love with them. And if you can bring yourself back to that place of love for that other person, then you can hopefully look in the mirror and say, but more importantly, I love me and I know this is important for me, and for what reasons. And find a mantra that reinvests that voice in yourself so that you stay strong. Whether that'd be for you, if you can't do it for yourself, do it for children if you have children in your relationship. Do it for something outside of you that makes you strong. But you must get to the place where it comes from within. Nicole: And sometimes, if you've been deceived or betrayed or you feel wronged, it's really important to talk to somebody else. And I think therapy is a great thing. I think getting a resource, somebody to talk out loud to help you reinforce you until you can reinforce yourself is, I think, critically important. Rhonda: Huge. That's huge. That is really huge. And I think spot-on, right, to all of the things that you're saying, because I do think that most of the challenge when it comes to having these types of conversations and negotiating is a lot of that is our self-talk, right, and how we're showing up for the meetings. As I've been working with women, there was one girl in particular that comes to mind. I mean, she has just been full of guilt and feels super bad about her situation. And I mean pretty much couldn't talk about it without, I mean, doing the ugly cry. And we finally got her to a point where she could show up for the meetings, and still, there's some emotion, but it wasn't like that level of not being able to really clearly think through certain aspects of it. And she's a smart woman who has a lot to offer, but she needed to be able to show up in those meetings in that way. And I know that for her, that was a really big win. I felt like I could contribute. Rhonda: Now, the challenge with that is when the other person or people in the meetings aren't used to that particular individual having a voice. There now becomes a level of ... a little bit of a ... it seems to be a little bit of a power struggle in those situations because they're used to being able to just dominate the conversation, and now she wants to be part of the conversation. She's got some good points to bring up, and so it's a whole new level of listening and hearing that is required on the other side as well. Nicole: Right. We have to remember we can only control ourselves. And so, I see, more a woman who is at that table and she's maybe finding her voice and her inner strength. It's important to come, like I said, from a place of love because not everybody grows at the same pace. And so sometimes if you have a man across the table from you who you at some point in time loved and hopefully can still love, then you're coming to a place of maybe adding some extra words, some extra things that you prepare yourself to say to affirm that you respect the other individual. I think if you're coming at a place of disrespect, then yeah, you're going to trigger another individual. And so, one tip I can say just from working with human beings, in general, is to say the word “you”, actually, you should never say the word “you” in any negotiation or collaborative context, unless it's a compliment. You come to the place of I. And a woman can own her I voice all day long just as a man can. Nicole: And as long as the woman is actually coming from a place of I, I feel, I expect, I would like, I have left with this feeling, I own, I all day long, and avoid the word “you” unless you're giving a compliment. And find other ways to wrap the conversation so you're not triggering an event of diagnosing somebody when you're not a doctor in a negotiation situation. What do you have to say about that, John? John: And Rhonda, thinking rather than Nicole, what's important to keep in mind here too is the power of the letter M, as in mindset. Hopefully, mindsets have been changed before a divorce situation occurs, but if not, it's part of a lifelong evolution. And the thing about negotiation in our book, we call it a simple repeatable process to improve your life. And M is the first letter. It's changing of the mindset. And that's an easy thing to say and a really hard thing to do. There's been a 100,000 years of social programming where men have had the power differential in the world. We get that, we totally get that. To just ask a woman to snap her fingers and change her mindset overnight is highly unreasonable. Nicole: Good luck, right? Rhonda: It's not happening. John: It's a possibility. And the idea of the mindset is you don't change it just to get through this divorce situation. You change it for the rest of your life and everything else that you do. Stop managing relationships. There's nothing about using negotiation tools to manage the relationship. And the idea here is we're pursuing great outcomes and we're preserving relationships. That's what we're trying to accomplish. And that's why M is so powerful as the starting point. As we go forward, there are two more letters. I'll let Nicole kick off the second letter here in just a second, but we have to start with the adjustment and evolution of a new mindset. Rhonda: Well, and can I get one thing here quick? Nicole: Yeah. Go, Rhonda. Rhonda: I was looking at some of the great materials that you guys put together, and one of the things that I noticed that kind of resonated with me was the fact that 70% of people prefer to avoid negotiation. And if I could do a show of hands 5, 10 years ago, that was me, like, oh my gosh, just the thought of having to negotiate created anxiety for me because I didn't have the right mindset around that particular situation. But now that I have learned how to do that and I'm continuing to learn how to do that, it takes a little bit of the pressure off when we say, “Hey, listen. Let's look at this on how can we create win-win outcomes? How can we preserve relationships? How can we respect the”... I mean that's essentially what everybody wants. In an ideal world, we want to preserve relationships; we want to be heard; we want to respect other people; we want to be respected in return. Like, oh, that's the gold standard, right? Rhonda: And yet, because we, particularly as women, don't know how, and probably many of the women that are listening to the podcast, right, you might not know how, but if you knew how you could do it, right? And so, I love the fact that it starts with the mindset piece, knowing that only 30% of the people really kind of embrace that, we have a lot of work to do. Nicole: Yeah. And I think there's something that John and I really talked at length about, which is really this concept of the tension of opposites. And I think John could probably speak to it the best, but that we have to honor the fact that yeah, there is a tension of opposites, and I think ... John, you want to speak to that really quickly? John: Absolutely. And I think we chose the phrase tension of opposites because we're actually quoting it out of a famous book, Tuesdays with Morrie, written by Mitch Albom. And in it, Morrie said, essentially, we all live in the middle. And life is like a set of rubber bands that we're pulling. But we essentially live in the middle. We're relatively normal people doing normal things. Unfortunately, we have a present-day media that is barking at us from the edges, but the whole world basically lives a relatively middle existence. And that tension of opposites speaks to how we need to approach people. We need to understand that everyone has a need and the power of listening. And this is more, I think quite frankly more of a guy evolution. But the power of listening creates the opportunity to find both of us in that middle. Once we find that common ground, we can negotiate effectively, because again, the whole objective here is that we get great outcomes and we preserve the relationship, which means we both have to, I won't use the word win, but we both have to flourish in this experience. Rhonda: Yeah. Absolutely. So we've talked about the M, the mindset. What's the next one, Nicole? Nicole: The next letter that we have is P, it's preparation. And I think we emphasized, John and I, the importance of preparation. And many people walk into situations daily not fully prepared and it only resorts to them being reactive, rather than proactive in what the outcome is going to be quite honest. And so, preparation is something where we say that we like to start with data. So how many women are actually coming to the table with data versus just their emotions? And we're not talking about data that's going to trigger emotion, that's going to put the other counterpart down. It's going to actually say, well, you didn't give me this and you didn't do that, because remember we said we're not going to use the word you. So we have to come back and say, okay, how do we start with data by saying I? Nicole: And then confronting those emotions that you're bringing emotionally to the negotiation table, especially in a personal situation such as divorce. You must confront your emotions and you must try to get to the place where you're coming to the table unemotional and with love. And that may take a lot of preparation. That may take role-playing that may, that may take a lot of investment in time getting ready for that day, whatever that day might be, and become the other side. You must become the other side. You must think about where the other person's coming from. You must think about how they're feeling. You must actually reside in their shoes for a moment mentally to say, “what is this person trying to do out of this exchange? What do they need to walk away from?” And I think for women and men, it's really unique. We always say that men are motivated by results and that women are motivated by effort. And when you think of that, and we're coming to the conversation at the table, women can do the work if they have this process. We call it the PST: the process, the sequence, and the tools. Nicole: So when you have the preparation of our PST, as we call it, process, sequence, and tools, right, so ladies, get your PST on, right, if you have that, then ultimately you're going to be able to come to the table without those emotions. You'll have some data, some facts. Hopefully, you'll be coming from both sides. You'll have a little information about what you hope or presume or think the other person wants and how you've taken that into consideration, and you're going to invent some options prepared in your mind, know what you're willing to accept, your thresholds, your tolerances, etc., and you're going to have bracketized offers, as we call it, meaning you've worked and done all the thinking to the point that you've come to the table unemotionally with actual options that are truly representative of both sides so you can kind of start to talk of a new alternative for you both of shared creation. That is really important. And I think ... John, why don't you talk about the key thing, which is most important, the final tip to our PST, as we call it, on preparation. I'd love for you to talk about just agenda. John: Well, it's interesting. One of the great things about P being the second letter in our sequence is a data point of one I observed in my life certainly with the wonderful women in my life. They're amazing life preparers, and I never ... I mean guys sometimes marvel. They may not admit it, but they marvel at the ability to multitask and manage through a myriad of issues on a daily basis, and it takes enormous preparation to accomplish that. So I think preparation comes naturally to certainly most women that I know. And the great thing about doing the preparation in the sequence that Nicole laid out, in the book we use an arrow. It's a six-step process. The great thing about it is it creates muscle memory. And once you've done it once, it gets easier the second, third, fourth time. I'm someone who had to embrace negotiation early on. I was one of the 70%. I didn't want to do it. But as I did it, the muscle memory kicked in and it became rote for me to a point where I now embraced it. John: And what Nicole was referring to with the last step of preparation, and this is, believe it or not, it's painfully simple. It's the formation of an agenda. I own a business now, but most of my career came from the sales or customer-facing end of the world, and I've made over 5,000 sales calls in my life. And virtually every time I did that, I had a piece of paper in my hand or something that laid out a few bullet points or a larger discussion of how we were going to frame this meeting. And in almost every single case, the other side would say, “Oh, thanks for bringing that. I'm glad you did that. Let's use that.” You have now subtly taken control of the meeting, not in a bad way, but you frame the discussion to where you believe it really needs to go. It is a simple and constantly overlooked tool that every time we bring it up we get people's eyebrows to raise because when it happens, it almost always creates an opportunity in an environment for great outcomes. Rhonda: Right. No. This is fantastic. In preparation with data, this is something that very much resonates with me, and I want to encourage the women that are listening to really grab ahold of this, because I always say, listen, I don't want us to assume. I don't want us to assume that the other person isn't being honest. I don't want to assume that we don't have all the information, but I do want to encourage women. I want to encourage you to gather the facts, get the data, gather the statements, organize the information, ask questions. One of the tools that we use is a financial private investigator. If there are concerns from a local or national level that there is information that's missing, let's go run the report. Let's find the information. If it comes back and there isn't anything there, then we know. If there is, then we'll deal with that information as it becomes available. Rhonda: But it becomes this ... The entire divorce process, I think if women can look at it as a fact-finding mission to say, “Hmm, isn't that interesting? Okay. Let's ask some more questions. Let's gather information.” I think they will really feel empowered as they're going through the process, because there's really four kinds of big rocks with that, finding the data, determining how to actually file for divorce. The next one is gathering all the financial documents, getting all the passwords, organizing all of that information. Then it's filling out the financial disclosure statements and all the paperwork associated with that, and doing a comparison between what their husband brings to the table and what they're bringing to the table as far as what they're disclosing. And then it's, okay, well, now we've got that information, we're going to put it into a property division worksheet and we're going to analyze that data, and then we're going to have some negotiation about what's in whose column. And then the last piece is the marital settlement agreement, that final divorce decree that we're going to again, analyze the data, review the facts, right? Rhonda: So I want to encourage everybody that's listening to say, Hmm, isn't that interesting? This step, the mindset piece, huge, right? The data piece, super important to this process. Of all of the things, this could be related to the divorce process, one of the most important. And it's getting the data as early on as possible in the process because once you start to kind of go down that divorce path is when things start to sometimes move or shift around. So, the sooner you can get your hands on the data, the more prepared you're going to be as you go through the process. The average divorce process is 52 weeks. That's an entire year that women have to set and reframe their mindset, continue to gather data, right, which is an important piece of this whole process. I love that part, such an important piece. Nicole: Well, and I think a lot of that was about the preparation, but as you're saying, we agree, preparation is probably the biggest weight emotionally or otherwise that you bring to any negotiation table. But really the fireworks can start to fly, I think, in any negotiation, especially in the context of a relationship, like divorce, when you're starting to ask for something. Nothing really is going to happen or hit the fan until that, right, John? John: Absolutely. Nicole: And we have a path to ask, and it's again, another one of our arrows in our process in our book, but it starts with that aspect of listening that comes to really getting to the other side. But I'm somebody that’s been ... I've been in relationships. I've never been divorced. But I can tell you even in the relationships that I had prior to the marriage that I have, it felt probably similar to what I imagined divorce to feel like because I'd lived with those people for years. And I think that John has a personal experience, and having him on this call is really important because he's a divorce survivor. And I think that someone who's been through this, been there, done that, can speak to it and maybe offer a unique lens to the women on the call because we really believe that the path to ask as we call it, which is where you listen, you precap, you think about all those options again and you start to build and make your case for what it is you're asking for. Nicole: You have to be able to bring things to the table to help substantiate what you're asking for and why and recalibrate that potentially based on the give and take of the conversation in exchange. But then you're ultimately hoping to ask and receive. Stay in the bracket that you've designed in terms of your acceptance, what you can live with, and then ultimately the accountability of what we call the 24-hour rule. So John, I'm going to let you really walk through a story maybe that you can speak to on the path to ask and help the women as they might embark on their journey. John: Absolutely. I'll use an example if you don't mind. It's non-divorce related. It's a business-related experience, but it's extremely relevant because the path to ask is really parallel in everything you do in life. And I'll make it relatively quick. I managed a wonderful young lady who became a sales manager for me a little over 25 years ago, and we had a very important customer in our world, who was extremely big and extremely difficult. And they prided themselves on being extremely hard. It was a high testosterone environment, extremely hard on anyone who walked in the door who was attempting to sell or supply them with products, which we were trying to do. In fact, they went so far and they were so bold and brazen about it they put a big sign over their door called Club Brutal, and the whole idea where you needed to know you were walking into a pretty nasty place. John: But what made it even more insidious, Rhonda, is that it was guys roughing up guys. But on those rare occasions when a female sales manager would walk in the door, they prided themselves, and this is really, really, really terrible, it was institutional bullying. They prided themselves on getting the woman to cry. And so, this young woman, who's now working for me, I had been through the Club Brutal a few times and I had my scars, but I did all right, and I needed to work with her to prepare her for this experience. And she had certainly heard all the rumors throughout the market in the industry. And I asked her if she needed some assistance up there and she said, “No, no, I'll handle it. I got this.” But she wanted a lot of preparation, and we dove in for two solid weeks and we prepared. And we pushed every button there was to be pushed, and we did role-playing. We looked at every possible scenario, and she had more data than they could possibly imagine. John: She went up there. She did her job, she got what she asked for, she nailed it, and she didn't cry. And from that day forward, we came up with the title for the book and that's why it's called, No Fear. That's the idea. It's a little anecdotal, but the idea of no fear is that we don't go in in a fearless, crazy way. We go in a no-fear environment where we have more preparation on our path to ask. So, when we get to the point of asking, it works. The third letter in our three-letter sequence is the A. The hardest part of negotiation is the ask. All of what we've done here, every bit of mindset change, preparation, walking the path to get there, is meaningless unless at that point in time someone asks for something. Rhonda: Absolutely. Well, I am so excited to be able to dive into that a little bit deeper. We're just going to take a quick break and we'll come back and talk about, in detail, how do we ask, right, and how do we prepare for that ask. So, I know that both of you, John and Nicole, have shared some really great tips around negotiating and I want to explore that further in just a second.   But first, a reminder that today's show is sponsored by Courageous Contemplations. It is a great place for you to start if you are contemplating divorce. And as Nicole said, you can stay in that spot for months, sometimes even years, and this is going to give you a clear pathway to know what you need to know before you make that final decision on whether you're going to stay or whether you're going to go. So, with that, you can check out that Courageous Contemplation course, www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events.   So back to the show. So let's go ahead and dive a little bit deeper into the third key pillar that you talk about, which is ask. Give us some tips around how to do that. Nicole: I think that when you think of the path to ask, and obviously John gave a great example of how it works in the context of a business scenario, which everybody can relate to, and I think what happens is in a business scenario, sometimes women can come into that logically and unemotionally. But when you come into your personal relationships, just like men, we are all extremely emotional. I think it's fair to say that we really need to think about what we're experiencing, which is in some cases it can be traumatic, it can be sudden, it can be grief-stricken. And I think most of us if you're not the one that's initiating the divorce, you could be stuck in some of the stages of grief. And the first stage of grief, which I'm sure many have heard of is denial. And you certainly don't want to come to a negotiation table when you're stuck in denial, and you certainly don't want to go into a negotiation table when you're in the second stage of grief, which is anger. You really want to get through those first stages of grief. However, you need to work through those stages of grief, before you approach the bargaining table. Nicole: But I think once you reach the third stage of grief where you're bargaining, a woman has already worked through, as far as I'm concerned, this is hard to say, but women go through hurt. You might cry when you realize something's not changing. Something's not changing and then you have to come through the hope. I think all women work through the hope that “Oh, this can change.” And then they ride that wave for a while. And then there's this sad day when you ... and that's denial for me. And then you get to this stage someday where you realize, “Oh okay, this isn't going to change.” And then you might get angry, and you get angry at the other person. You guys might fight and battle, and that could have led to months or years in a relationship, right, Rhonda? So, it's like you’ve got years of this, and that could be that second stage where you're working through just being angry with someone because they're not working with you. And how could they be doing this to you? And again, it's that you statement. How could you do this to me? Nicole: And instead of coming back to the place of power and self advocacy and control, which women are not necessarily good at, and that's something we say is critical to the path to ask, as a woman to come to this place of bargaining and not a place of not complacency or not caring, sometimes women go straight from denial and anger to, I don't care, which is a defense mechanism. And so, you need to come back from that to a place of no, self-advocacy. I care enough to care enough about me and you so that we can move through this. And that bargaining approach, coming to that table at that stage, that's when you're ready to start with the path to ask. Rhonda: Well, and I have ... The place of complacency, I want to address that for just a minute, because how I see that manifest with the women that are in the early stages of divorce is, “Oh, everything's going to be amicable. He said he's going to give me this. He said he's going to do this.” So they kind of check out, right? It's from a place of really believing that the other person has their best interest in mind, but I think women are doing a disservice to themselves if they stay in that spot, because I will say all day long, “Hey, if this thing ends up being amicable and you guys are in a spot where it really does go smoothly, I will be the first person to celebrate with you. However, my experience tells me that that isn't always the case. And so, we're going to plan as if…” Right? I want them to be involved. I don't want them to be complacent. I want them asking those questions. I want them to have the right mindset. I want them to be prepared, and they're going to be in a better spot to have those conversations. Nicole: Absolutely. And I think people ... Part of the preparation process that we're talking about, especially something specific with divorce is preparing yourself that you're going to have feelings even when you get to the bargaining table, even if you've thought you've worked through this already. And so, I want John to be able to speak to that a little bit, which is you're still working through stages of grief. I mean be prepared for the fact that you're going to feel something, and you may still feel like a great loss and a great sadness. And John, can you speak to that a little bit in terms of the path to ask and stages of grief? John: Absolutely. I think it's crucial when you're at this stage going through the various stages of grief, you're in this theoretical bargaining phase. And one thing that is so crucial, I believe, for women to be conscious of is this is a highly emotional life-changing, sea changing experience you're going through right now. It is crucial you stay in the process, stay in the process. We're talking about MPA here. We've asked you to adjust your mindset. We've asked you to do a deep dive of preparation, which you're probably exceedingly good at. So, you've got a lot going on. You are ready; you are on the path to ask; and, you're at that point where things are now going back and forth and there's give and there's take, and it's easy to jump out of the process because you just want it to be over. The hard part of the final part of the path to ask is staying in your bracket. We call it that because as Nicole mentioned earlier, in preparation, we create these bracketized offers and we use the phrase bracketized to emphasize that you're not going to drift out of your bracket. You've created what makes sense. I have a great offer; I have a realistic offer; I have a fallback offer, but I'm not leaving that bracket. I'm not saying okay at the final minute just because I want to go home and make this stop. John: Same thing is true in a business negotiation except multiplied by 1,000 here because of the extreme emotional environment that we're dealing with. It's the same basic desire to just get over it because I don't want to do this in the first place. It's crucial to stay in that process because if you changed your mindset, if you fortified yourself with great preparation. You are ready and you are okay. You're ready to have a great outcome and manage this relationship forward. At that point, the asking becomes much, much easier. But the key recommendation for me is number one, staying in the process, and number two, this is a criticism, sometimes women are guilty of, don't overthink it. John: Now, we know that there's a lot going on here. There's a lot of missiles flying through the air. If you can stay in your process and don't overthink what the downstream implications can be, even though some of that is absolutely crucial, I think I've observed certainly with women in my life, the overthinking, or the ability to overthink themselves out of what's right, and then a disagreement with themselves down the road. “Why didn't I do that?” I see it all the time with women in business, who overthink the desire to increase their compensation in their particular job. They've overthought it so much, they've talked themselves in and out of it to a point where they won't get to the point of asking. So many times women are guilty of that. Again, my two, stay in the process, don't overthink. Rhonda: One of the things ... and I love that. One of the things I wrote down, John, was to set realistic expectations for the people that they're working with. And what I mean by that is I think a lot of times through the divorce process, women are expecting their attorneys, in particular, to do the negotiating for them. And I don't know that that's a realistic expectation. There may be times when the attorney will negotiate, but the women are really the ones who need to do all of the things that we talked about and come to the table prepared. And a lot of times I'm working with them behind the scenes to help prepare them to come to the table and have those conversations. So, I wouldn't say that they have to do it on their own, but I would say, setting those realistic expectations for the attorney that they're working with, for their financial expert, even with their therapist. Those are the three core professions that I feel like should come and surround you if you're going through divorce, right, at minimum, because you need this team of people. But you've got to set realistic expectations for them as well and know that the bulk of the responsibility will fall on you because you're the one who needs to really come to the table prepared. John: Exactly, Rhonda. And I would summarize that. I think you said it very, very well. I'd summarize that by saying don't outsource the expectations. The attorney, he or she is the go-between. They may be the mouthpiece. They may be the hired gun, so to speak, but they don't decide. You decide, and you utilize their strengths in the back and forth. And sometimes it can get a little rough but don't outsize your own expectations. You own that. Rhonda: That is a tweetable quote right there, John. Yes. Don't outsource the expectations. Absolutely. And I think it comes with being able to communicate those expectations, which is having those assertive conversations that Nicole, you were alluding to those I statements, right, and just making sure that you can ... I always say divorce is two things. It's managing risk and managing expectations. And if you can do those two things, you are going to be able to navigate through a really challenging and difficult process as unscathed as possible. John: Absolutely. Rhonda: Oh my gosh, this has been so awesome. And I have to say that I think I'm going to have to go get your book because I'm looking forward to just really diving even a little bit deeper in some of these conversations. Nicole: Well, you’ll like that it's practical, Rhonda. It's a short read. We made it that way on purpose. And the reason we did that, John and I are coming from a collaboration from a male/female perspective obviously, our partnership in writing this book together and setting it forth. But I think that we made it practical and referenceable, so you'll pick it up again and again and kind of plug yourself into the arrows and the process, as we call it. And the reason is because we hope that you create a habit of negotiation and we actually hope that you take this forth as a new tool, and it's something we intentionally avoided, Rhonda, telling you, do it this way, go about it this way, do this. It's much more about giving you the process, the sequence, and the tool so you can plug yourself into it and bring the magnificence of you. Like John said, don't outsource that, own it. Bring you, based and grounded in humility and confidence and self-advocacy and self-love on to that place of healing, and plug yourself into a proven process that's simple and repeatable and hit the bargaining table ready. I mean the book is meant to be used - not theory. It's practical. So we love hearing that you're going to pick it up. We hope it empowers you and takes you forward. Rhonda: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh my goodness, this is so great. I think it's, again, it's such a great topic. But as we kind of, as I say, land the plane, right, during our time together, I first want to just say thank you so much for sharing your brilliance, your expertise, your passion, your candidness, your vulnerability with my audience. Any final thoughts, closing remarks, as we kind of wrap up our time together? John: I'd just like to say one quick thing and then I'll hand it off to my partner here. I think part of this experience too, we end the book at a place where we realize women are tremendous life coaches to people in their life, both young and old, but for the young people coming up, particularly women mentoring boys, emphasize how important it is for them to evolve to a point where they eventually in their life, they need to respect girls and absolutely come from a place of decency and respect and build your life, your business life, your personal life with that in mind. I think we can do better there as a society, and it is getting better. I observe it all the time, but we can continue to do better. Nicole: I love how ... and John has been saying that since the beginning, Rhonda. I'm a mother of boys and I love knowing that we can have that invitation and receive it and see it forth, as well, as women. As somebody who has been through trauma and somebody who has survived trauma and been through loss and come out on the other side through positive healing, even exited people from the workplace, right, Rhonda, and I have some of those people I have fired become Facebook friends. How do you move forth from things whole? And so I'm going to give you my favorite quote, which I live by and I'm going to hope that it helps every woman that you're working with come to this place, which is, “Presence is more important than just being present. And I think that if a woman thinks of her presence, the power of her presence, the brightness of her presence, the vision and the dream of what she sets forth, how does she project love and light, and how can she move forth whole? What does she need to do to replenish her presence?” Nicole: And if she can do that, if she can find the ways, whatever it takes to fill her soul cup and replenish her presence, she shall be whole. And she shall go forth and she shall help another soul. And I think that every woman, no matter how much she's hurting right now, she just regards her presence, honors her presence, and I believe good God bless Louise Hay, what you feel you can heal. Feel it. Honor your feelings. Even if you're speaking to someone your truth, like I said in a negotiation and you happen to cry, you know what, God bless it. Let somebody see how you feel, but make sure it's coming from love, not anger, and honor your presence and move forward. And I would leave a woman with that. Rhonda: I love that. I would like to give a huge thank you to Nicole and John for being our guests today. If you'd like to get in touch with them, feel free to check out their website, www.nofearnegotiation.com. We've also linked their bios and some additional resources and information in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. Today's episode has been sponsored by Courageous Contemplation, our online course. So if you find yourself contemplating divorce, I want you to check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of divorce conversations for women. I'd love to have you as part of the conversation. Simply comment on this episode. Drop us a review on iTunes or get involved anytime at www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com. I'm Rhonda Noordyk and I help you know what you don't know about divorce. ________________________________________ Contact Information and Other Resources Our guests today were Nicole Martin and John Tinghitella No Fear Negotiations for Women Nicole Martin is Chief Empowerment Officer and Founder of HRBoost, LLC, an HR Shared Services consulting firm based in Chicago, Illinois. Her business has been honored by multiple organizations including most recently as a 2017 Annual Awardee for Business Excellence by the Daily Herald Business Ledger, and a 2016 Enterprising Women of the Year Champion by Enterprising Women Magazine. A sought-after expert, her knowledge and advice have been featured in newspapers and magazines throughout the country. Recent publications in which she has been seen include Forbes.com, the Daily Herald Business Ledger, and Fast Company. Nicole has authored, PWN International Literary Award and #1 Amazon Best Seller, The Talent Emergency, the accompanying Talent Emergency Guidebook, The Human Side of Profitability, and The Power of Joy & Purpose. Nicole serves on Advisory Boards dedicated to Best & Brightest® Companies to Work For, Social Service in the community and Women in Business. To learn more about Nicole, go to www.hrboost.com or www.nicolemartin.live  nmartin@hrboost.com | (847) 736-5085 x 103 ____________________ John's career has taken him from the trenches of sales management, to the corner office, to owning his own business so he can realize his vision for success. A self-described "sales guy," he combines a strong sense for the creative solution with a keen focus on building relationships. Collaborative negotiation is his lifelong passion. He's observed first-hand the unfairness of how much women contribute versus the rewards…which typically go to men. His negotiation message is the culmination of a career spent learning, applying, adapting, and giving back. johnt@rvdesigner.com | (845) 313-7747 ____________________ Our host of Divorce Conversations for Women Podcast is Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI Rhonda Noordyk's relentless pursuit of financial justice for women going through divorce drove her to leave the financial industry in 2014 to open The Women's Financial Wellness Center. She was in search of a better way. She used her knowledge, passion, and experience to build a leading-edge business model. The intention was to create a business that provided a safe place for women - especially those in a vulnerable position - to find their paths, find their voices and find the financial confidence they need to lift themselves out of seemingly hopeless situations. Since starting the Women’s Financial Wellness Center, after a 10+ year career in the financial industry, she has helped alleviate financial vulnerability for thousands of women. ​In addition to being the Founder & CEO of The Women’s Financial Wellness Center, Rhonda is also a professional speaker. While her platform is women’s money wellness, it is not just about money. Her topics include: assertive communication, boundaries, leadership and overcoming financial myths. Her speaking experience includes: GE Healthcare, UWM Women’s Leadership Conference and Marquette Law School. In addition, she has appeared on Fox6 News, Real Milwaukee, and Morning Blend. Her dynamic and inspirational style leaves women with a sense of empowerment. Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI  CEO | The Women's Financial Wellness Center rhonda@wfwcllc.com | (262) 522-1502 Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube Schedule a FREE 30-Minute Phone Call ____________________ Sponsored by: Courageous Contemplation (online course) ____________________ Visit the Women’s Financial Wellness Center for a full directory listing of experts. Be sure to reach out if you would like to connect personally with the Women’s Financial Wellness Center. You can visit our website or grab a complimentary 30-minute consult. Leaving a positive podcast review is hugely important: they help the podcast get discovered by new people. Please spend 5 minutes of your time to leave a review on your preferred listening platform, we’d love to hear from you!  

John 13:1-16Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church from the Gospel of John:Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him. And during supper 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4 got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. 5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. 6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered, “You do not know now what I am doing, but later you will understand.” 8 Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no share with me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” 10 Jesus said to him, “One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you.” 11 For he knew who was to betray him; for this reason he said, “Not all of you are clean.”12 After he had washed their feet, had put on his robe, and had returned to the table, he said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord—and you are right, for that is what I am. 14 So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. 16 Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. This is the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God

John 4:1-30Hear what the Spirit is saying to the church from the Gospel of John:Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, “Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples than John” 2 —although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized— 3 he left Judea and started back to Galilee. 4 But he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a Samaritan city called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired out by his journey, was sitting by the well. It was about noon.7 A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, “Give me a drink.” 8 (His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?” (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.” 11 The woman said to him, “Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?” 13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.” 15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.”16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come back.” 17 The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!” 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but yousay that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I am he, the one who is speaking to you.”27 Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with a woman, but no one said, “What do you want?” or, “Why are you speaking with her?” 28 Then the woman left her water jar and went back to the city. She said to the people, 29 “Come and see a man who told me everything I have ever done! He cannot be the Messiah, can he?” 30 They left the city and were on their way to him. This is the word of the Lord. Thanks be to God

This week on StoryWeb, Susan Glaspell’s play Trifles. Born in 1876, Susan Glaspell was a prominent novelist, short story writer, journalist, biographer, actress, and, most notably, playwright, winning the 1931 Pulitzer Prize for Drama for her play Alison’s House. She and her husband, George Cram Cook, founded the ground-breaking Provincetown Players, widely known as the first modern American theater company. In fact, it was Glaspell who discovered dramatist Eugene O’Neill as she was searching for a new playwright to feature at the theater. Though she was a widely acclaimed author during her lifetime, with pieces in Harper’s and Ladies’ Home Journal and with books on the New York Times bestsellers list, Glaspell is little known today. She comes down to us for two related works: her one-act play Trifles, written in 1916, and a short story based on the play, “A Jury of Her Peers,” written in 1917. The play and the story were based on Margaret Hossack’s murder trial, which Glaspell covered as a young reporter for the Des Moines Daily News in her home state of Iowa. Trifles ­­– which she wrote in just ten days – is a masterful account of the way two housewives successfully unravel the mystery of another housewife’s murder of her husband. Mr. Wright has been found dead in his bedroom, strangled with a rope. His wife, Mrs. Wright, is in the kitchen, acting “queer,” according to Mr. Hale, the neighbor who initially discovers the murder. The play takes place the day after the murdered man is discovered and after his wife has been taken to jail. Three prominent men of the community – Sheriff Peters, County Attorney Henderson, and Mr. Hale – go to investigate the murder scene. Sheriff Peters and Mr. Hale bring their wives along with them, just in case they can discover any clues to the murder. It is widely assumed that Mrs. Wright killed her husband, but what is her motive? The three men are truly stumped. What would cause an ordinary housewife in a seemingly calm and tidy home to kill her husband? As the detectives are investigating the murder scene in the bedroom upstairs, Mrs. Peters and Mrs. Hale look around the kitchen and the parlor. Little by little, they begin to spy clues to Mrs. Wright’s emotional state. Erratic stitches in a piece of quilting when all the other needlework was straight, beautiful, unblemished. An empty birdcage with a broken door. A dead canary – its neck twisted – hidden in Mrs. Wright’s sewing basket in a piece of silk. The women realize without even speaking to each other that Mr. Wright had killed the bird and driven his wife to murder. And with silent, knowing looks at each other, they decide not to tell the men what they’ve discovered. For an outstanding reworking of Glaspell’s play, see Kaye Gibbons’s 1991 novel, A Cure for Dreams. Gibbons, a North Carolina writer, obviously had Trifles in mind as she depicts ##, a character who “hides” her crime in her quilting. You can learn more about the connections between Trifles and A Cure for Dreams in my first book, A Southern Weave of Women: Fiction of the Contemporary South. (Check out Chapter 6, “The Southern Wild Zone: Voices on the Margins.” My discussion of A Cure for Dreams begins on page 194, and I explore the links between Glaspell and Gibbons on pages 201-202.) Trifles also make me think of Adrienne Rich’s early poem “Aunt Jennifer’s Tigers.” The elderly Aunt Jennifer has spent her adult life being “mastered” by her husband. His ring – that is, her wedding band – weighs heavy on her hand. But that weight doesn’t stop her from creating scenes of liberation, power, and strength in her needlepoint. In her tapestry, Aunt Jennifer depicts tigers – “prancing, proud and unafraid.” There’s a story there, Rich seems to say, a sign for those who are adept enough to read it. Finally, Trifles reminds me of African American women quilters who sewed into their quilts messages about the underground railroad. The classic study of these quilts is Hidden in Plain View: A Secret Story of Quilts and the Underground Railroad. Something seemingly so simply and utilitarian as a quilt has the power to be subversive. As Alice Walker notes in her landmark essay “In Search of Our Mothers’ Gardens,” women’s creativity – and the clues it provides to women’s lives – can be found everywhere if one simply knows where to look. Quilts, gardens, kitchens – “just” women’s work – can illuminate the secrets of women’s lives. One thing’s for sure: Glaspell’s work deserves more attention. Oxford University Press published Linda Ben-Zvi’s biography of Glaspell in 2005, and both Trifles and “A Jury of Her Peers” are widely anthologized and frequently taught in classrooms across the country. If you want to join me in learning more about Glaspell, visit the website of the International Susan Glaspell Society. They even offer a timeline of Glaspell’s writing of Trifles. And to learn about Glaspell’s most enduring legacy, the Provincetown Players, visit the Provincetown Playhouse website, dedicated to preserving the history of this truly revolutionary theater. Listen now as I read Susan Glaspell’s short story “A Jury of Her Peers” in its entirety.   When Martha Hale opened the storm-door and got a cut of the north wind, she ran back for her big woolen scarf. As she hurriedly wound that round her head her eye made a scandalized sweep of her kitchen. It was no ordinary thing that called her away—it was probably farther from ordinary than anything that had ever happened in Dickson County. But what her eye took in was that her kitchen was in no shape for leaving: her bread all ready for mixing, half the flour sifted and half unsifted. She hated to see things half done; but she had been at that when the team from town stopped to get Mr. Hale, and then the sheriff came running in to say his wife wished Mrs. Hale would come too—adding, with a grin, that he guessed she was getting scarey and wanted another woman along. So she had dropped everything right where it was. "Martha!" now came her husband's impatient voice. "Don't keep folks waiting out here in the cold." She again opened the storm-door, and this time joined the three men and the one woman waiting for her in the big two-seated buggy. After she had the robes tucked around her she took another look at the woman who sat beside her on the back seat. She had met Mrs. Peters the year before at the county fair, and the thing she remembered about her was that she didn't seem like a sheriff's wife. She was small and thin and didn't have a strong voice. Mrs. Gorman, sheriff's wife before Gorman went out and Peters came in, had a voice that somehow seemed to be backing up the law with every word. But if Mrs. Peters didn't look like a sheriff's wife, Peters made it up in looking like a sheriff. He was to a dot the kind of man who could get himself elected sheriff—a heavy man with a big voice, who was particularly genial with the law-abiding, as if to make it plain that he knew the difference between criminals and non-criminals. And right there it came into Mrs. Hale's mind, with a stab, that this man who was so pleasant and lively with all of them was going to the Wrights' now as a sheriff. "The country's not very pleasant this time of year," Mrs. Peters at last ventured, as if she felt they ought to be talking as well as the men. Mrs. Hale scarcely finished her reply, for they had gone up a little hill and could see the Wright place now, and seeing it did not make her feel like talking. It looked very lonesome this cold March morning. It had always been a lonesome-looking place. It was down in a hollow, and the poplar trees around it were lonesome-looking trees. The men were looking at it and talking about what had happened. The county attorney was bending to one side of the buggy, and kept looking steadily at the place as they drew up to it. "I'm glad you came with me," Mrs. Peters said nervously, as the two women were about to follow the men in through the kitchen door. Even after she had her foot on the door-step, her hand on the knob, Martha Hale had a moment of feeling she could not cross that threshold. And the reason it seemed she couldn't cross it now was simply because she hadn't crossed it before. Time and time again it had been in her mind, "I ought to go over and see Minnie Foster"—she still thought of her as Minnie Foster, though for twenty years she had been Mrs. Wright. And then there was always something to do and Minnie Foster would go from her mind. But now she could come.  The men went over to the stove. The women stood close together by the door. Young Henderson, the county attorney, turned around and said, "Come up to the fire, ladies." Mrs. Peters took a step forward, then stopped. "I'm not—cold," she said. And so the two women stood by the door, at first not even so much as looking around the kitchen. The men talked for a minute about what a good thing it was the sheriff had sent his deputy out that morning to make a fire for them, and then Sheriff Peters stepped back from the stove, unbuttoned his outer coat, and leaned his hands on the kitchen table in a way that seemed to mark the beginning of official business. "Now, Mr. Hale," he said in a sort of semi-official voice, "before we move things about, you tell Mr. Henderson just what it was you saw when you came here yesterday morning." The county attorney was looking around the kitchen. "By the way," he said, "has anything been moved?" He turned to the sheriff. "Are things just as you left them yesterday?" Peters looked from cupboard to sink; from that to a small worn rocker a little to one side of the kitchen table. "It's just the same." "Somebody should have been left here yesterday," said the county attorney. "Oh—yesterday," returned the sheriff, with a little gesture as of yesterday having been more than he could bear to think of. "When I had to send Frank to Morris Center for that man who went crazy—let me tell you, I had my hands full yesterday. I knew you could get back from Omaha by to-day, George, and as long as I went over everything here myself—" "Well, Mr. Hale," said the county attorney, in a way of letting what was past and gone go, "tell just what happened when you came here yesterday morning." Mrs. Hale, still leaning against the door, had that sinking feeling of the mother whose child is about to speak a piece. Lewis often wandered along and got things mixed up in a story. She hoped he would tell this straight and plain, and not say unnecessary things that would just make things harder for Minnie Foster. He didn't begin at once, and she noticed that he looked queer—as if standing in that kitchen and having to tell what he had seen there yesterday morning made him almost sick. "Yes, Mr. Hale?" the county attorney reminded. "Harry and I had started to town with a load of potatoes," Mrs. Hale's husband began. Harry was Mrs. Hale's oldest boy. He wasn't with them now, for the very good reason that those potatoes never got to town yesterday and he was taking them this morning, so he hadn't been home when the sheriff stopped to say he wanted Mr. Hale to come over to the Wright place and tell the county attorney his story there, where he could point it all out. With all Mrs. Hale's other emotions came the fear now that maybe Harry wasn't dressed warm enough—they hadn't any of them realized how that north wind did bite. "We come along this road," Hale was going on, with a motion of his hand to the road over which they had just come, "and as we got in sight of the house I says to Harry, 'I'm goin' to see if I can't get John Wright to take a telephone.' You see," he explained to Henderson, "unless I can get somebody to go in with me they won't come out this branch road except for a price I can't pay. I'd spoke to Wright about it once before; but he put me off, saying folks talked too much anyway, and all he asked was peace and quiet—guess you know about how much he talked himself. But I thought maybe if I went to the house and talked about it before his wife, and said all the women-folks liked the telephones, and that in this lonesome stretch of road it would be a good thing—well, I said to Harry that that was what I was going to say—though I said at the same time that I didn't know as what his wife wanted made much difference to John—" Now, there he was!—saying things he didn't need to say. Mrs. Hale tried to catch her husband's eye, but fortunately the county attorney interrupted with: "Let's talk about that a little later, Mr. Hale. I do want to talk about that, but I'm anxious now to get along to just what happened when you got here." When he began this time, it was very deliberately and carefully: "I didn't see or hear anything. I knocked at the door. And still it was all quiet inside. I knew they must be up—it was past eight o'clock. So I knocked again, louder, and I thought I heard somebody say, 'Come in.' I wasn't sure—I'm not sure yet. But I opened the door—this door," jerking a hand toward the door by which the two women stood, "and there, in that rocker"—pointing to it—"sat Mrs. Wright." Every one in the kitchen looked at the rocker. It came into Mrs. Hale's mind that that rocker didn't look in the least like Minnie Foster—the Minnie Foster of twenty years before. It was a dingy red, with wooden rungs up the back, and the middle rung was gone, and the chair sagged to one side. "How did she—look?" the county attorney was inquiring. "Well," said Hale, "she looked—queer." "How do you mean—queer?" As he asked it he took out a note-book and pencil. Mrs. Hale did not like the sight of that pencil. She kept her eye fixed on her husband, as if to keep him from saying unnecessary things that would go into that note-book and make trouble. Hale did speak guardedly, as if the pencil had affected him too. "Well, as if she didn't know what she was going to do next. And kind of—done up." "How did she seem to feel about your coming?" "Why, I don't think she minded—one way or other. She didn't pay much attention. I said, 'Ho' do, Mrs. Wright? It's cold, ain't it?' And she said, 'Is it?'—and went on pleatin' at her apron. "Well, I was surprised. She didn't ask me to come up to the stove, or to sit down, but just set there, not even lookin' at me. And so I said: 'I want to see John.' "And then she—laughed. I guess you would call it a laugh. "I thought of Harry and the team outside, so I said, a little sharp, 'Can I see John?' 'No,' says she—kind of dull like. 'Ain't he home?' says I. Then she looked at me. 'Yes,' says she, 'he's home.' 'Then why can't I see him?' I asked her, out of patience with her now. ''Cause he's dead,' says she, just as quiet and dull—and fell to pleatin' her apron. 'Dead?' says I, like you do when you can't take in what you've heard. "She just nodded her head, not getting a bit excited, but rockin' back and forth. "'Why—where is he?' says I, not knowing what to say. "She just pointed upstairs—like this"—pointing to the room above. "I got up, with the idea of going up there myself. By this time I—didn't know what to do. I walked from there to here; then I says: 'Why, what did he die of?' "'He died of a rope round his neck,' says she; and just went on pleatin' at her apron."  Hale stopped speaking, and stood staring at the rocker, as if he were still seeing the woman who had sat there the morning before. Nobody spoke; it was as if every one were seeing the woman who had sat there the morning before. "And what did you do then?" the county attorney at last broke the silence. "I went out and called Harry. I thought I might—need help. I got Harry in, and we went upstairs." His voice fell almost to a whisper. "There he was—lying over the—" "I think I'd rather have you go into that upstairs," the county attorney interrupted, "where you can point it all out. Just go on now with the rest of the story." "Well, my first thought was to get that rope off. It looked—" He stopped, his face twitching. "But Harry, he went up to him, and he said, 'No, he's dead all right, and we'd better not touch anything.' So we went downstairs. "She was still sitting that same way. 'Has anybody been notified?' I asked. 'No,' says she, unconcerned. "'Who did this, Mrs. Wright?' said Harry. He said it businesslike, and she stopped pleatin' at her apron. 'I don't know,' she says. 'You don't know?' says Harry. 'Weren't you sleepin' in the bed with him?' 'Yes,' says she, 'but I was on the inside.' 'Somebody slipped a rope round his neck and strangled him, and you didn't wake up?' says Harry. 'I didn't wake up,' she said after him. "We may have looked as if we didn't see how that could be, for after a minute she said, 'I sleep sound.' "Harry was going to ask her more questions, but I said maybe that weren't our business; maybe we ought to let her tell her story first to the coroner or the sheriff. So Harry went fast as he could over to High Road—the Rivers' place, where there's a telephone." "And what did she do when she knew you had gone for the coroner?" The attorney got his pencil in his hand all ready for writing. "She moved from that chair to this one over here"—Hale pointed to a small chair in the corner—"and just sat there with her hands held together and looking down. I got a feeling that I ought to make some conversation, so I said I had come in to see if John wanted to put in a telephone; and at that she started to laugh, and then she stopped and looked at me—scared." At sound of a moving pencil the man who was telling the story looked up. "I dunno—maybe it wasn't scared," he hastened; "I wouldn't like to say it was. Soon Harry got back, and then Dr. Lloyd came, and you, Mr. Peters, and so I guess that's all I know that you don't."   He said that last with relief, and moved a little, as if relaxing. Every one moved a little. The county attorney walked toward the stair door. "I guess we'll go upstairs first—then out to the barn and around there." He paused and looked around the kitchen. "You're convinced there was nothing important here?" he asked the sheriff. "Nothing that would—point to any motive?" The sheriff too looked all around, as if to re-convince himself. "Nothing here but kitchen things," he said, with a little laugh for the insignificance of kitchen things. The county attorney was looking at the cupboard—a peculiar, ungainly structure, half closet and half cupboard, the upper part of it being built in the wall, and the lower part just the old-fashioned kitchen cupboard. As if its queerness attracted him, he got a chair and opened the upper part and looked in. After a moment he drew his hand away sticky. "Here's a nice mess," he said resentfully. The two women had drawn nearer, and now the sheriff's wife spoke. "Oh—her fruit," she said, looking to Mrs. Hale for sympathetic understanding. She turned back to the county attorney and explained: "She worried about that when it turned so cold last night. She said the fire would go out and her jars might burst." Mrs. Peters' husband broke into a laugh. "Well, can you beat the women! Held for murder and worrying about her preserves!" The young attorney set his lips. "I guess before we're through with her she may have something more serious than preserves to worry about." "Oh, well," said Mrs. Hale's husband, with good-natured superiority, "women are used to worrying over trifles." The two women moved a little closer together. Neither of them spoke. The county attorney seemed suddenly to remember his manners—and think of his future. "And yet," said he, with the gallantry of a young politician, "for all their worries, what would we do without the ladies?" The women did not speak, did not unbend. He went to the sink and began washing his hands. He turned to wipe them on the roller towel—whirled it for a cleaner place. "Dirty towels! Not much of a housekeeper, would you say, ladies?" He kicked his foot against some dirty pans under the sink. "There's a great deal of work to be done on a farm," said Mrs. Hale stiffly. "To be sure. And yet"—with a little bow to her—"I know there are some Dickson County farm-houses that do not have such roller towels." He gave it a pull to expose its full length again. "Those towels get dirty awful quick. Men's hands aren't always as clean as they might be." "Ah, loyal to your sex, I see," he laughed. He stopped and gave her a keen look. "But you and Mrs. Wright were neighbors. I suppose you were friends, too." Martha Hale shook her head. "I've seen little enough of her of late years. I've not been in this house—it's more than a year." "And why was that? You didn't like her?" "I liked her well enough," she replied with spirit. "Farmers' wives have their hands full, Mr. Henderson. And then—" She looked around the kitchen. "Yes?" he encouraged. "It never seemed a very cheerful place," said she, more to herself than to him. "No," he agreed; "I don't think any one would call it cheerful. I shouldn't say she had the home-making instinct." "Well, I don't know as Wright had, either," she muttered. "You mean they didn't get on very well?" he was quick to ask. "No; I don't mean anything," she answered, with decision. As she turned a little away from him, she added: "But I don't think a place would be any the cheerfuler for John Wright's bein' in it." "I'd like to talk to you about that a little later, Mrs. Hale," he said. "I'm anxious to get the lay of things upstairs now." He moved toward the stair door, followed by the two men. "I suppose anything Mrs. Peters does'll be all right?" the sheriff inquired. "She was to take in some clothes for her, you know—and a few little things. We left in such a hurry yesterday." The county attorney looked at the two women whom they were leaving alone there among the kitchen things. "Yes—Mrs. Peters," he said, his glance resting on the woman who was not Mrs. Peters, the big farmer woman who stood behind the sheriff's wife. "Of course Mrs. Peters is one of us," he said, in a manner of entrusting responsibility. "And keep your eye out Mrs. Peters, for anything that might be of use. No telling; you women might come upon a clue to the motive—and that's the thing we need." Mr. Hale rubbed his face after the fashion of a show man getting ready for a pleasantry. "But would the women know a clue if they did come upon it?" he said; and, having delivered himself of this, he followed the others through the stair door.   The women stood motionless and silent, listening to the footsteps, first upon the stairs, then in the room above them. Then, as if releasing herself from something strange, Mrs. Hale began to arrange the dirty pans under the sink, which the county attorney's disdainful push of the foot had deranged. "I'd hate to have men comin' into my kitchen," she said testily—"snoopin' round and criticizin'." "Of course it's no more than their duty," said the sheriff's wife, in her manner of timid acquiescence. "Duty's all right," replied Mrs. Hale bluffly; "but I guess that deputy sheriff that come out to make the fire might have got a little of this on." She gave the roller towel a pull. "Wish I'd thought of that sooner! Seems mean to talk about her for not having things slicked up, when she had to come away in such a hurry." She looked around the kitchen. Certainly it was not "slicked up." Her eye was held by a bucket of sugar on a low shelf. The cover was off the wooden bucket, and beside it was a paper bag—half full. Mrs. Hale moved toward it. "She was putting this in there," she said to herself—slowly. She thought of the flour in her kitchen at home—half sifted, half not sifted. She had been interrupted, and had left things half done. What had interrupted Minnie Foster? Why had that work been left half done? She made a move as if to finish it,—unfinished things always bothered her,—and then she glanced around and saw that Mrs. Peters was watching her—and she didn't want Mrs. Peters to get that feeling she had got of work begun and then—for some reason—not finished. "It's a shame about her fruit," she said, and walked toward the cupboard that the county attorney had opened, and got on the chair, murmuring: "I wonder if it's all gone." It was a sorry enough looking sight, but "Here's one that's all right," she said at last. She held it toward the light. "This is cherries, too." She looked again. "I declare I believe that's the only one." With a sigh, she got down from the chair, went to the sink, and wiped off the bottle. "She'll feel awful bad, after all her hard work in the hot weather. I remember the afternoon I put up my cherries last summer." She set the bottle on the table, and, with another sigh, started to sit down in the rocker. But she did not sit down. Something kept her from sitting down in that chair. She straightened—stepped back, and, half turned away, stood looking at it, seeing the woman who had sat there "pleatin' at her apron." The thin voice of the sheriff's wife broke in upon her: "I must be getting those things from the front room closet." She opened the door into the other room, started in, stepped back. "You coming with me, Mrs. Hale?" she asked nervously. "You—you could help me get them." They were soon back—the stark coldness of that shut-up room was not a thing to linger in. "My!" said Mrs. Peters, dropping the things on the table and hurrying to the stove. Mrs. Hale stood examining the clothes the woman who was being detained in town had said she wanted. "Wright was close!" she exclaimed, holding up a shabby black skirt that bore the marks of much making over. "I think maybe that's why she kept so much to herself. I s'pose she felt she couldn't do her part; and then, you don't enjoy things when you feel shabby. She used to wear pretty clothes and be lively—when she was Minnie Foster, one of the town girls, singing in the choir. But that—oh, that was twenty years ago." With a carefulness in which there was something tender, she folded the shabby clothes and piled them at one corner of the table. She looked up at Mrs. Peters and there was something in the other woman's look that irritated her. "She don't care," she said to herself. "Much difference it makes to her whether Minnie Foster had pretty clothes when she was a girl." Then she looked again, and she wasn't so sure; in fact, she hadn't at any time been perfectly sure about Mrs. Peters. She had that shrinking manner, and yet her eyes looked as if they could see a long way into things. "This all you was to take in?" asked Mrs. Hale. "No," said the sheriff's wife; "she said she wanted an apron. Funny thing to want," she ventured in her nervous little way, "for there's not much to get you dirty in jail, goodness knows. But I suppose just to make her feel more natural. If you're used to wearing an apron—. She said they were in the bottom drawer of this cupboard. Yes—here they are. And then her little shawl that always hung on the stair door." She took the small gray shawl from behind the door leading upstairs, and stood a minute looking at it. Suddenly Mrs. Hale took a quick step toward the other woman. "Mrs. Peters!" "Yes, Mrs. Hale?" "Do you think she—did it?" A frightened look blurred the other thing in Mrs. Peters' eyes. "Oh, I don't know," she said, in a voice that seemed to shrink away from the subject. "Well, I don't think she did," affirmed Mrs. Hale stoutly. "Asking for an apron, and her little shawl. Worryin' about her fruit." "Mr. Peters says—." Footsteps were heard in the room above; she stopped, looked up, then went on in a lowered voice: "Mr. Peters says—it looks bad for her. Mr. Henderson is awful sarcastic in a speech, and he's going to make fun of her saying she didn't—wake up." For a moment Mrs. Hale had no answer. Then, "Well, I guess John Wright didn't wake up—when they was slippin' that rope under his neck," she muttered. "No, it's strange," breathed Mrs. Peters. "They think it was such a—funny way to kill a man." She began to laugh; at sound of the laugh, abruptly stopped. "That's just what Mr. Hale said," said Mrs. Hale, in a resolutely natural voice. "There was a gun in the house. He says that's what he can't understand." "Mr. Henderson said, coming out, that what was needed for the case was a motive. Something to show anger—or sudden feeling." "Well, I don't see any signs of anger around here," said Mrs. Hale. "I don't—" She stopped. It was as if her mind tripped on something. Her eye was caught by a dish-towel in the middle of the kitchen table. Slowly she moved toward the table. One half of it was wiped clean, the other half messy. Her eyes made a slow, almost unwilling turn to the bucket of sugar and the half empty bag beside it. Things begun—and not finished. After a moment she stepped back, and said, in that manner of releasing herself: "Wonder how they're finding things upstairs? I hope she had it a little more red up up there. You know,"—she paused, and feeling gathered,—"it seems kind of sneaking: locking her up in town and coming out here to get her own house to turn against her!" "But, Mrs. Hale," said the sheriff's wife, "the law is the law." "I s'pose 'tis," answered Mrs. Hale shortly. She turned to the stove, saying something about that fire not being much to brag of. She worked with it a minute, and when she straightened up she said aggressively: "The law is the law—and a bad stove is a bad stove. How'd you like to cook on this?"—pointing with the poker to the broken lining. She opened the oven door and started to express her opinion of the oven; but she was swept into her own thoughts, thinking of what it would mean, year after year, to have that stove to wrestle with. The thought of Minnie Foster trying to bake in that oven—and the thought of her never going over to see Minnie Foster—. She was startled by hearing Mrs. Peters say: "A person gets discouraged—and loses heart." The sheriff's wife had looked from the stove to the sink—to the pail of water which had been carried in from outside. The two women stood there silent, above them the footsteps of the men who were looking for evidence against the woman who had worked in that kitchen. That look of seeing into things, of seeing through a thing to something else, was in the eyes of the sheriff's wife now. When Mrs. Hale next spoke to her, it was gently: "Better loosen up your things, Mrs. Peters. We'll not feel them when we go out." Mrs. Peters went to the back of the room to hang up the fur tippet she was wearing. A moment later she exclaimed, "Why, she was piecing a quilt," and held up a large sewing basket piled high with quilt pieces. Mrs. Hale spread some of the blocks out on the table. "It's log-cabin pattern," she said, putting several of them together. "Pretty, isn't it?" They were so engaged with the quilt that they did not hear the footsteps on the stairs. Just as the stair door opened Mrs. Hale was saying: "Do you suppose she was going to quilt it or just knot it?" The sheriff threw up his hands. "They wonder whether she was going to quilt it or just knot it!" There was a laugh for the ways of women, a warming of hands over the stove, and then the county attorney said briskly: "Well, let's go right out to the barn and get that cleared up." "I don't see as there's anything so strange," Mrs. Hale said resentfully, after the outside door had closed on the three men—"our taking up our time with little things while we're waiting for them to get the evidence. I don't see as it's anything to laugh about." "Of course they've got awful important things on their minds," said the sheriff's wife apologetically. They returned to an inspection of the block for the quilt. Mrs. Hale was looking at the fine, even sewing, and preoccupied with thoughts of the woman who had done that sewing, when she heard the sheriff's wife say, in a queer tone: "Why, look at this one." She turned to take the block held out to her. "The sewing," said Mrs. Peters, in a troubled way. "All the rest of them have been so nice and even—but—this one. Why, it looks as if she didn't know what she was about!" Their eyes met—something flashed to life, passed between them; then, as if with an effort, they seemed to pull away from each other. A moment Mrs. Hale sat her hands folded over that sewing which was so unlike all the rest of the sewing. Then she had pulled a knot and drawn the threads. "Oh, what are you doing, Mrs. Hale?" asked the sheriff's wife, startled. "Just pulling out a stitch or two that's not sewed very good," said Mrs. Hale mildly. "I don't think we ought to touch things," Mrs. Peters said, a little helplessly. "I'll just finish up this end," answered Mrs. Hale, still in that mild, matter-of-fact fashion. She threaded a needle and started to replace bad sewing with good. For a little while she sewed in silence. Then, in that thin, timid voice, she heard: "Mrs. Hale!" "Yes, Mrs. Peters?" "What do you suppose she was so—nervous about?" "Oh, I don't know," said Mrs. Hale, as if dismissing a thing not important enough to spend much time on. "I don't know as she was—nervous. I sew awful queer sometimes when I'm just tired." She cut a thread, and out of the corner of her eye looked up at Mrs. Peters. The small, lean face of the sheriff's wife seemed to have tightened up. Her eyes had that look of peering into something. But next moment she moved, and said in her thin, indecisive way: "Well, I must get those clothes wrapped. They may be through sooner than we think. I wonder where I could find a piece of paper—and string." "In that cupboard, maybe," suggested Mrs. Hale, after a glance around. One piece of the crazy sewing remained unripped. Mrs. Peters' back turned, Martha Hale now scrutinized that piece, compared it with the dainty, accurate sewing of the other blocks. The difference was startling. Holding this block made her feel queer, as if the distracted thoughts of the woman who had perhaps turned to it to try and quiet herself were communicating themselves to her. Mrs. Peters' voice roused her. "Here's a bird-cage," she said. "Did she have a bird, Mrs. Hale?" "Why, I don't know whether she did or not." She turned to look at the cage Mrs. Peter was holding up. "I've not been here in so long." She sighed. "There was a man round last year selling canaries cheap—but I don't know as she took one. Maybe she did. She used to sing real pretty herself." Mrs. Peters looked around the kitchen. "Seems kind of funny to think of a bird here." She half laughed—an attempt to put up a barrier. "But she must have had one—or why would she have a cage? I wonder what happened to it." "I suppose maybe the cat got it," suggested Mrs. Hale, resuming her sewing. "No; she didn't have a cat. She's got that feeling some people have about cats—being afraid of them. When they brought her to our house yesterday, my cat got in the room, and she was real upset and asked me to take it out." "My sister Bessie was like that," laughed Mrs. Hale. The sheriff's wife did not reply. The silence made Mrs. Hale turn round. Mrs. Peters was examining the bird-cage. "Look at this door," she said slowly. "It's broke. One hinge has been pulled apart." Mrs. Hale came nearer. "Looks as if some one must have been—rough with it." Again their eyes met—startled, questioning, apprehensive. For a moment neither spoke nor stirred. Then Mrs. Hale, turning away, said brusquely: "If they're going to find any evidence, I wish they'd be about it. I don't like this place." "But I'm awful glad you came with me, Mrs. Hale," Mrs. Peters put the bird-cage on the table and sat down. "It would be lonesome for me—sitting here alone." "Yes, it would, wouldn't it?" agreed Mrs. Hale, a certain determined naturalness in her voice. She had picked up the sewing, but now it dropped in her lap, and she murmured in a different voice: "But I tell you what I do wish, Mrs. Peters. I wish I had come over sometimes when she was here. I wish—I had." "But of course you were awful busy, Mrs. Hale. Your house—and your children." "I could've come," retorted Mrs. Hale shortly. "I stayed away because it weren't cheerful—and that's why I ought to have come. I"—she looked around—"I've never liked this place. Maybe because it's down in a hollow and you don't see the road. I don't know what it is, but it's a lonesome place, and always was. I wish I had come over to see Minnie Foster sometimes. I can see now—" She did not put it into words. "Well, you mustn't reproach yourself," counseled Mrs. Peters. "Somehow, we just don't see how it is with other folks till—something comes up." "Not having children makes less work," mused Mrs. Hale, after a silence, "but it makes a quiet house—and Wright out to work all day—and no company when he did come in. Did you know John Wright, Mrs. Peters?" "Not to know him. I've seen him in town. They say he was a good man." "Yes—good," conceded John Wright's neighbor grimly. "He didn't drink, and kept his word as well as most, I guess, and paid his debts. But he was a hard man, Mrs. Peters. Just to pass the time of day with him—." She stopped, shivered a little. "Like a raw wind that gets to the bone." Her eye fell upon the cage on the table before her, and she added, almost bitterly: "I should think she would've wanted a bird!" Suddenly she leaned forward, looking intently at the cage. "But what do you s'pose went wrong with it?" "I don't know," returned Mrs. Peters; "unless it got sick and died." But after she said it she reached over and swung the broken door. Both women watched it as if somehow held by it. "You didn't know—her?" Mrs. Hale asked, a gentler note in her voice. "Not till they brought her yesterday," said the sheriff's wife. "She—come to think of it, she was kind of like a bird herself. Real sweet and pretty, but kind of timid and—fluttery. How—she—did—change." That held her for a long time. Finally, as if struck with a happy thought and relieved to get back to every-day things, she exclaimed: "Tell you what, Mrs. Peters, why don't you take the quilt in with you? It might take up her mind." "Why, I think that's a real nice idea, Mrs. Hale," agreed the sheriff's wife, as if she too were glad to come into the atmosphere of a simple kindness. "There couldn't possibly be any objection to that, could there? Now, just what will I take? I wonder if her patches are in here—and her things." They turned to the sewing basket. "Here's some red," said Mrs. Hale, bringing out a roll of cloth. Underneath that was a box. "Here, maybe her scissors are in here—and her things." She held it up. "What a pretty box! I'll warrant that was something she had a long time ago—when she was a girl." She held it in her hand a moment; then, with a little sigh, opened it. Instantly her hand went to her nose. "Why—!" Mrs. Peters drew nearer—then turned away. "There's something wrapped up in this piece of silk," faltered Mrs. Hale. "This isn't her scissors," said Mrs. Peters, in a shrinking voice. Her hand not steady, Mrs. Hale raised the piece of silk. "Oh, Mrs. Peters!" she cried. "It's—" Mrs. Peters bent closer. "It's the bird," she whispered. "But, Mrs. Peters!" cried Mrs. Hale. "Look at it! Its neck—look at its neck! It's all—other side to." She held the box away from her. The sheriff's wife again bent closer. "Somebody wrung its neck," said she, in a voice that was slow and deep. And then again the eyes of the two women met—this time clung together in a look of dawning comprehension, of growing horror. Mrs. Peters looked from the dead bird to the broken door of the cage. Again their eyes met. And just then there was a sound at the outside door. Mrs. Hale slipped the box under the quilt pieces in the basket, and sank into the chair before it. Mrs. Peters stood holding to the table. The county attorney and the sheriff came in from outside. "Well, ladies," said the county attorney, as one turning from serious things to little pleasantries, "have you decided whether she was going to quilt it or knot it?" "We think," began the sheriff's wife in a flurried voice, "that she was going to—knot it." He was too preoccupied to notice the change that came in her voice on that last. "Well, that's very interesting, I'm sure," he said tolerantly. He caught sight of the bird-cage. "Has the bird flown?" "We think the cat got it," said Mrs. Hale in a voice curiously even. He was walking up and down, as if thinking something out. "Is there a cat?" he asked absently. Mrs. Hale shot a look up at the sheriff's wife. "Well, not now," said Mrs. Peters. "They're superstitious, you know; they leave." She sank into her chair. The county attorney did not heed her. "No sign at all of any one having come in from the outside," he said to Peters, in the manner of continuing an interrupted conversation. "Their own rope. Now let's go upstairs again and go over it, piece by piece. It would have to have been some one who knew just the—" The stair door closed behind them and their voices were lost. The two women sat motionless, not looking at each other, but as if peering into something and at the same time holding back. When they spoke now it was as if they were afraid of what they were saying, but as if they could not help saying it. "She liked the bird," said Martha Hale, low and slowly. "She was going to bury it in that pretty box." "When I was a girl," said Mrs. Peters, under her breath, "my kitten—there was a boy took a hatchet, and before my eyes—before I could get there—" She covered her face an instant. "If they hadn't held me back I would have"—she caught herself, looked upstairs where footsteps were heard, and finished weakly—"hurt him." Then they sat without speaking or moving. "I wonder how it would seem," Mrs. Hale at last began, as if feeling her way over strange ground—"never to have had any children around?" Her eyes made a slow sweep of the kitchen, as if seeing what that kitchen had meant through all the years. "No, Wright wouldn't like the bird," she said after that—"a thing that sang. She used to sing. He killed that too." Her voice tightened. Mrs. Peters moved uneasily. "Of course we don't know who killed the bird." "I knew John Wright," was Mrs. Hale's answer. "It was an awful thing was done in this house that night, Mrs. Hale," said the sheriff's wife. "Killing a man while he slept—slipping a thing round his neck that choked the life out of him." Mrs. Hale's hand went out to the bird-cage. "His neck. Choked the life out of him." "We don't know who killed him," whispered Mrs. Peters wildly. "We don't know." Mrs. Hale had not moved. "If there had been years and years of—nothing, then a bird to sing to you, it would be awful—still—after the bird was still." It was as if something within her not herself had spoken, and it found in Mrs. Peters something she did not know as herself. "I know what stillness is," she said, in a queer, monotonous voice. "When we homesteaded in Dakota, and my first baby died—after he was two years old—and me with no other then—" Mrs. Hale stirred. "How soon do you suppose they'll be through looking for the evidence?" "I know what stillness is," repeated Mrs. Peters, in just that same way. Then she too pulled back. "The law has got to punish crime, Mrs. Hale," she said in her tight little way. "I wish you'd seen Minnie Foster," was the answer, "when she wore a white dress with blue ribbons, and stood up there in the choir and sang." The picture of that girl, the fact that she had lived neighbor to that girl for twenty years, and had let her die for lack of life, was suddenly more than she could bear. "Oh, I wish I'd come over here once in a while!" she cried. "That was a crime! That was a crime! Who's going to punish that?" "We mustn't take on," said Mrs. Peters, with a frightened look toward the stairs. "I might 'a' known she needed help! I tell you, it's queer, Mrs. Peters. We live close together, and we live far apart. We all go through the same things—it's all just a different kind of the same thing! If it weren't—why do you and I understand? Why do we know—what we know this minute?" She dashed her hand across her eyes. Then, seeing the jar of fruit on the table, she reached for it and choked out: "If I was you I wouldn't tell her her fruit was gone! Tell her it ain't. Tell her it's all right—all of it. Here—take this in to prove it to her! She—she may never know whether it was broke or not." She turned away. Mrs. Peters reached out for the bottle of fruit as if she were glad to take it—as if touching a familiar thing, having something to do, could keep her from something else. She got up, looked about for something to wrap the fruit in, took a petticoat from the pile of clothes she had brought from the front room, and nervously started winding that round the bottle. "My!" she began, in a high, false voice, "it's a good thing the men couldn't hear us! Getting all stirred up over a little thing like a—dead canary." She hurried over that. "As if that could have anything to do with—with—My, wouldn't they laugh?" Footsteps were heard on the stairs. "Maybe they would," muttered Mrs. Hale—"maybe they wouldn't." "No, Peters," said the county attorney incisively; "it's all perfectly clear, except the reason for doing it. But you know juries when it comes to women. If there was some definite thing—something to show. Something to make a story about. A thing that would connect up with this clumsy way of doing it." In a covert way Mrs. Hale looked at Mrs. Peters. Mrs. Peters was looking at her. Quickly they looked away from each other. The outer door opened and Mr. Hale came in. "I've got the team round now," he said. "Pretty cold out there." "I'm going to stay here awhile by myself," the county attorney suddenly announced. "You can send Frank out for me, can't you?" he asked the sheriff. "I want to go over everything. I'm not satisfied we can't do better." Again, for one brief moment, the two women's eyes found one another. The sheriff came up to the table. "Did you want to see what Mrs. Peters was going to take in?" The county attorney picked up the apron. He laughed. "Oh, I guess they're not very dangerous things the ladies have picked out." Mrs. Hale's hand was on the sewing basket in which the box was concealed. She felt that she ought to take her hand off the basket. She did not seem able to. He picked up one of the quilt blocks which she had piled on to cover the box. Her eyes felt like fire. She had a feeling that if he took up the basket she would snatch it from him. But he did not take it up. With another little laugh, he turned away, saying: "No; Mrs. Peters doesn't need supervising. For that matter, a sheriff's wife is married to the law. Ever think of it that way, Mrs. Peters?" Mrs. Peters was standing beside the table. Mrs. Hale shot a look up at her; but she could not see her face. Mrs. Peters had turned away. When she spoke, her voice was muffled. "Not—just that way," she said. "Married to the law!" chuckled Mrs. Peters' husband. He moved toward the door into the front room, and said to the county attorney: "I just want you to come in here a minute, George. We ought to take a look at these windows." "Oh—windows," said the county attorney scoffingly. "We'll be right out, Mr. Hale," said the sheriff to the farmer, who was still waiting by the door. Hale went to look after the horses. The sheriff followed the county attorney into the other room. Again—for one final moment—the two women were alone in that kitchen. Martha Hale sprang up, her hands tight together, looking at that other woman, with whom it rested. At first she could not see her eyes, for the sheriff's wife had not turned back since she turned away at that suggestion of being married to the law. But now Mrs. Hale made her turn back. Her eyes made her turn back. Slowly, unwillingly, Mrs. Peters turned her head until her eyes met the eyes of the other woman. There was a moment when they held each other in a steady, burning look in which there was no evasion nor flinching. Then Martha Hale's eyes pointed the way to the basket in which was hidden the thing that would make certain the conviction of the other woman—that woman who was not there and yet who had been there with them all through that hour. For a moment Mrs. Peters did not move. And then she did it. With a rush forward, she threw back the quilt pieces, got the box, tried to put it in her handbag. It was too big. Desperately she opened it, started to take the bird out. But there she broke—she could not touch the bird. She stood there helpless, foolish. There was the sound of a knob turning in the inner door. Martha Hale snatched the box from the sheriff's wife, and got it in the pocket of her big coat just as the sheriff and the county attorney came back into the kitchen. "Well, Henry," said the county attorney facetiously, "at least we found out that she was not going to quilt it. She was going to—what is it you call it, ladies?" Mrs. Hale's hand was against the pocket of her coat. "We call it—knot it, Mr. Henderson."    

GRP 45-My guest on for this episode is retired Green Beret Medic Sergeant First Class Michael Rodriguez. Michael spent 21 years in the US Army with his first deployment to Somalia with the 10th Mountain Divison, to his last deployment to Afghanistan with the 7th Special Forces Group. We discuss Special Operations medicine, the advances in technology as a result of war. First Sergeant Rodriguez was medically retired due to sustaining several TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injury) from IEDs. He sits on President George W. Bush's Military Service Initiative Advisory Council which engages in a wide range of activities that support veterans. Last but not least he's the Cheif Ambassador at the Green Beret Foundation. Below is an excerpt from the episode: John: Now for the Special Operations medical course the individuals going through are Rangers, SEALs, or Green Berets it's a course that all SOF attends. Was it like that during those days? Sergeant First Class Rodriguez: It was. The way it was when I went through it was two courses. Special Operations Combat Medic(SOCM), and then Special Forces Medical Sergeants Course(SFMS). We had PJ's , Ranger Medics, and SEALs go through SOCM. The only people who went on through SFMS the more advanced stuff were 18 Delta's Green Beret Medic's or they would send back seasoned SEALs the IDC's (Independent Duty Corpsman) those guys were seasoned veterans going through that portion. Now it's a bit different but there's still somewhat of a distinction for the 18 Delta's.

Xiaohua: Hello! And welcome to round table’s word of the week. This week we are talking about some banking related terms. Cause you know everyone needs the bank, but not everyone knows some of the terms are you use we you go to one. John: Yeah. It is true. If only we didn’t all need to use the bank, but as Xiaohua said we’ll be looking at, if you’re going abroad, and in particular if you’re going to the US and you have to deposit a check or maybe make a withdrawal, well, you wanna take a listen real quick. So first of all, if you go to a bank and you want to get money out of your account, you would go up to the teller, so it’s the person who is working behind the desk and say, “I would like to make a withdrawal.”Xiaohua: 当去银行要提款的时候就要说这句话了，另外teller就是银行的柜员。John: Then the teller might ask you how would you like the money. That basically means what types of notes and how many notes do you want for that withdrawal. Xiaohua: How would you like the money 可不是说你想要什么样的钱，而是说你想要什么面值的钞票。John: Right. It’s not do you want that in RMB or do you want that in US dollars. No. Do you want that in tens, fives or twenties, fifties (Xiaohua: Exactly.) or in one hundreds? But don’t ask for one hundreds, because very few stores actually accept that. And then looking at if you want to put money in, you can say I would like to make a deposit, so you are depositing money. You can also say, for example, maybe you have your check from work. And you can say to the teller I would like to deposit this check. Xiaohua: 需要存钱的话就说make a deposit。另外check支票也是在英美国家经常用的，所以你有可能想要把某一张支票存入帐户。这时候就说deposit this check. John: Yeah. Deposit this check. You can say, I’d like to, you know, you can deposit cash. You can deposit a check or whatever form of payment you have. Let’s say that you’ve never been to that bank before. And you want to open a bank account. Well, that’s very simple. You just say I would like to open a bank account. Xiaohua: 在银行开户就是open a bank account.John: And you know, of course, life is not as simple or as easy as we would like it to be. Sometimes maybe you’ll lose your ATM card or you’ll lose your credit card. So you can call their service number or you can go to the bank and you can report a lost credit card or a stolen credit card. Xiaohua: 如果丢了银行卡或者是信用卡要挂失的时候就要说report a lost credit card or a stolen credit card. John: And here’s a pretty important difference. In banks there are many different types of accounts, as I’m sure you are already aware. But we are gonna look at some of the more broader categories. So in general, there are two types of accounts. One is a checking account and the other is a savings account. A checking account is an account that has very very low interest that you are making payments into and making withdrawals on a regular basis. Whereas the savings account has a slightly higher interest rate, and it is expected that there will not be very much activity on that account. Xiaohua: 下面来介绍一下经常会用到的几种帐户的名字。 Checking account 是支票帐户又是活期帐户的意思。而savings account指的是储蓄帐户或者是有一定利息的定期存款账户。John: Now let’s move away from these dry and slightly boring words and phrases and take a look at some bank related idioms. First, on the books is “break the bank”. Buying a new pair of shoes at a discount price won’t break the bank. Xiaohua: 下面我们来看一下一些跟银行有关的习语吧。Break the bank 可不是什么抢劫银行的意思，而是说你的钱都花光了。John: Right. And then “bank on something”. Man I am so reliable, of course you can bank on me. Xiaohua: Bank on something是信赖某事，信赖某人。John: Then of course “you can take that to the bank” or take it to the bank. Our US president Barack Obama is very famous for saying that in one of his election campaign speeches, making a promise and he says you can take that to the bank. And of course, what I am telling you is the truth. You can take it to the bank. Xiaohua: Take it to the bank 是说我打包票我说的都是真的，你可以去求证的意思。据说奥巴马也非常喜欢用这个词。And that’s all we have for this week’s word of the week. John: Bye Bye.

XH: Hello, welcome to RoundTable’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about some commonly used workplace idioms, especially in the US, right?John: Yeah, most definitely in the US. It’s funny because when we are coming up with this list, at first I was like what exactly I’m looking for, and then I found a whole bunch, I said “oh, yeah, all right, these words and phrases are used all the day and time.” So we’re just going to go in a bit of random order, but keep up and you’re gotta learn a lot today. The first one is “green light”, basically it just means to approve a project.XH: green light就是允许为一件事情开绿灯。John: Right, “The director wants to green light your scented wallpaper idea.” The next one is one of my favorites, and you can use it outside the workplace. It’s called “brownie points”: to curry favor or get favor with someone, especially a boss. For example, “He earned brownie points by getting the boss’s coffee.” XH: Brownie是一种小甜点，但是brownie points的意思就是得到加分，印象分。John: Climb the ladder or climb the corporate ladder: to advance in one’s career through promotions. “Earning brownie points is one way to climb the ladder.” XH: Climb the ladder也经常用，指事业上进步、得到晋升的意思。John: “Team player” is pretty obvious: A committed employee who works well with other colleagues. “A team player often sees his proposals green lighted.” XH：Team player就是有团队精神的人。John: A “yes man”: an employee who always agrees with the boss. “He was a yes man, a team player and a chaser of brownie points.” XH：Yes man也很形象，指唯唯诺诺的人、应声虫。John: Then next one is “touch base”. Actually, my mother was a manager pretty much her entire career, and whenever I went to office with her, or she had to take a call at home, she would always use this phrase “touch base” or “touch base with someone”. It took me a long time to figure out. But basically, it’s just to confer about the progress of a project. So just to talk about the progress of what is currently being worked on. XH：Touch base就是碰个头，把事情进展知会给大家、互通情况。John: For example, “Let’s touch base tomorrow about the flea spray account.” Moving on to “crunch time”: When a project needs completed quickly. “It’s crunch time – we need to touch base as soon as possible.” XH：Crunch Time就是关键时刻。John: Right. And then “plug or plug a product”: To promote or market a product. “I was on TV this morning to plug our new flea spray.” And actually you know shen we have guests on Round Table, one of the reasons we have them on sometimes, is so they can plug something they are doing. XH：Plug有推广、销售的意思。John: Cash cow: The product that generates the most revenue for a company. “This scented wallpaper will be the company’s cash cow.” XH：会挤出钱来的奶牛，叫做Cash cow，中文就是摇钱树的意思。John: Then “On the ball”, “to stay on the ball” or “keep the ball rolling” is another one that is seen quite often outside the office, but is used especially in the office, meaning to ensure that a project is progressing efficiently and on time. So you have to “Keep the ball rolling on our green lighted projects.” XH：Keep the ball rolling就是要继续做某件事情，某个项目。John: Down to the wire: Said of something whose outcome or completion takes you to always the deadline. So you are working on a project and it will due on Monday at 9 o’clock. You are working at weekend. 8:55 on Monday you finish it. It called “come down to the wire”. XH: When something is down to the wire, that means 这件事情已经到了最后关头，最后期限了。John: “Glass ceiling” is used quite often when we talk about women and minorities, so the perceived struggle of women and minorities to achieve promotions. “She knew it would be hard to break through the glass ceiling and climb the corporate ladder.” XH: 玻璃屋顶，也就是隐形的升职障碍”。John: Pull the plug: To terminate a project or account. “He pulled the plug on the flea spray before we even got to plug it.” XH: Pull the plug是把插头拔掉，指终止业务或项目。John: Belt-tightening: To reduce expenses. “After we lost our cash cow, the HR department tightened its belt.”XH:就是“勒紧裤腰带”的意思。John: Work out the kinks: To revise, edit or otherwise improve a flawed product or service. “If you don’t work out the kinks, they’re going to pull the plug.” XH: Kinks有扭曲、打结的意思。Work out kinks指解决问题。John: Pull your weight: To share in the workload. “Since we’ve tightened our belts, everybody has to pull his weight.” XH: Pull your weight指尽力的意思。John: Axed: To be terminated; synonymous with being fired. “The yes man was axed when he came down with lockjaw.”XH: Axed被砍掉被开除的意思。John: Now, we are axed. That all the time we have for this week’s RoundTable’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohu: Hello and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. 感恩节后的黑色星期五刚刚过去，那么今天我们就来聊一些跟颜色有关的英语词汇吧。 John: Yeah, and so we won’t be teaching you about Black Friday because I think you already know that one. Instead we’re looking at other colors and other phrases. So we’re going to start in kind of alphabetical order, with blue. So we have out of the blue, which is unexpected, and then once in a blue moon, which is an event that occurs infrequently. Xiaohua: 先来说说蓝色. Out of the blue是出人意料的。Once in a blue moon是不经常发生的事件。 John: Yeah, because there’s no such thing as a blue moon, unfortunately. Moving on to green, get the green light, that kind of makes a bit of sense, you know, you have a green light, a yellow light, a red light, when you get the green light, it means you can go and do something. Then of course there is the green thumb or green fingers, which is basically really good at gardening, making plants grow. A green horn is a novice, or a beginner, so basically just someone who just started doing something. And then there’s my favorite, which is green around the gills, or turn green, which means someone looks a little sick, a little nauseous. Xiaohua: get the green light 就是说得到允许做某一件事情。如果有人有green thumb的话，那一般说明他们的园艺水平非常好，种什么什么都能活。Green horn是新手的意思，而turn green则是脸色非常非常难看，so either you are really sick, or maybe you are scared by a ghost or something? John: No, no. it only refers to feeling sick, so someone visibly looks like they’re about to vomit. And as soon as someone turns green, get them a bucket, pretty much. John: Moving on. Yellow. So there’s yellowbellied. I’m not sure where this came from, but it basically means someone who is a coward, so a yellowbelly is a coward. And then there is yellow journalism, basically a type of journalism meant to sensationalize news stories to sell papers. Xiaohua: 说到黄色，yellowbelly是指胆小鬼、懦夫。而yellow journalism是指为了追求惊悚不顾新闻事实的新闻报道方法，标题党也可以算是一种吧。 John: And then moving on to brown, and so there is brown bagging, and this can actually have two different meanings. One is basically just to bring a home-made lunch to work, but also brown bagging can also refer to the practice of putting an open alcoholic container into a brown bag and drinking it in public, because most states in the US, for example, have laws against open containers. However, if you keep it in a brown bag, the police probably will not give you a hard time. Xiaohua: That’s very interesting. 牛皮纸袋的颜色是brown，所以brown bagging既可以指从家里打包带一些做好的吃的来办公室吃，也可以指喜欢喝酒的人把打开了的酒瓶子装在袋子里在公共场合来喝。因为在很多西方国家，在公共场合公开喝酒是不被允许的。 John: And then there is red, so caught red-handed. Someone is clearly guilty. It means they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar. They were caught actually in the act of doing something. And then there is seeing red. This is obviously quite descriptive. When someone just gets so angry, the blood goes into their eyes, and they’re just, very, very angry. Then there is not worth a red cent. Again I have no idea where this comes from. It’s very, very interesting, though. Basically it just means that something has no value. It’s not worth a red cent. Xiaohua: 说到红色，caught red-handed就是指被抓了现行，当场被抓住。Seeing red则是说某人非常非常生气，气到不行的这种程度。Not worth a red cent是说某件事情毫无价值。 John: Now pink, very closely related to red, but in meaning, very, very far. So there is tickled pink. It means just to be very happy about something. And then there is in the pink, which means that you’re in good health. Xiaohua: Pink好像总是和一些比较好的意思连接在一起。Tickled pink，是指非常高兴，而in the pink则是指身体很好。 John: And purple. So purple prose is an elaborately written poem or paragraph in literature. Usually it refers to something that’s a bit over-written, a little bit too verbose. Xiaohua: 紫色总是和高贵联系在一起，那么紫色的诗篇或文字则是指高贵典雅、但有时过于矫揉造作的诗句。 John: Now white. So white Christmas is when there is snow on Christmas day, and unfortunately if you’re living in a place like Australia you will not have a white Christmas because it’s summer during Christmas unfortunately. And then there’s white hot, so basically something is really, really hot, so hot that it is in fact white. It can also mean that something is just very, very intense, like white hot emotion perhaps. Xiaohua: White Christmas就是下雪的圣诞节，而white hot可以指非常热，也可以指是非常强烈的意思。 John: And so the opposite of white is of course black. Then there is blackball, so to blackball is to vote against someone in a secret manner to prevent them from becoming a member of a club. This is actually similar to blacklisting. For example, when you blacklist someone, you put their name on a list somewhere or it becomes known, and then they cannot find a job in that certain industry. Then there is the black sheep, or the name of a movie actually with Chris Farley in it a very funny movie. It just means a bad character in an otherwise respectable group, or at least someone who sticks out very, very clearly, doesn’t necessarily follow the rules, and perhaps a bit more of a rebel.

Xiaohua: Hello, welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about English expressions that have other countries or peoples in them. John: Yes. Let’s start with France. So there are the French kiss and the “pardon my French” or “excuse my French”. So a French kiss, basically, just means it’s a type of very romantic kiss where two tongues are touching. Slang synonyms include, this is kind of vulgar actually, “swapping spit” or “tonsil hockey”. Interestingly enough, a French kiss is called that because at the beginning of the 20th century, the French had a reputation for more adventurous and passionate sex practices. Xiaohua: I see. French kiss法式深吻，大家都知道了。 John: “Pardon my French” is a common English language phrase used to disguise profanity as French. These days it is used a bit tongue in cheek as in, you know, hey we all know that I said about words, but I’m just kind of joking about it. But when it first came into use, people were, in fact, serious about that. It was a way to apologize for saying bad words. Xiaohua: “Pardon my French”一般是用在说了一些不好听的话或一些脏话之后，然后请求对方的原谅。 John: Now we are going over to Mexico with the Mexican standoff. So it’s a confrontation among three armed opponents, usually the origin of the word list can armed with guns. So the problem is, NO.1, if you are in a duel, right the first person that shoots is at an advantage, because it’s only two people. But in a Mexican standoff, because there are three people, the first person you shoot is actually, at a disadvantage, because then the second person might shoot them, right? So the Mexican standoff, these days, has come to mean, basically, a confrontation or a situation where there is no tactical advantage in terms of first move. It’s also perhaps unsafe to try to withdraw from the confrontation. Xiaohua: Mexican standoff, 我们在西部片里都看过类似的场景。三个牛仔在一起决斗，这个时候，第一个拔枪的人未必会占到先机，因为可能会被下一个人射倒。在现代英语中，Mexican standoff可能会指一个比较棘手的政治事件，在博弈当中最先出牌的人不见得会占到优势。 John: These days it just comes to mean a confrontation no one has a measurable advantage and it might not be very wise to try to withdraw from the standoff. All right, now we are going to Greece with the phrase “it’s all Greek to me” or “it’s Greek to me”. Basically, it just means that when you’re looking at something written down, maybe someone who is speaking to you, maybe some complicated math or diagram, you look at it or you hear it and you have no idea what it’s supposed to mean. It’s all very foreign, completely incomprehensible, so it’s all Greek to you. Xiaohua: 希腊话是很难学的，那么当有人说话听上去像希腊话一样，那就是说完全听不懂。 John: And interestingly enough, some historians say this might be a direct translation from a similar phrase in Latin, which means it’s Greek, therefore it cannot be read. Now we are going over to the Netherlands with two different phrases “go Dutch” and “Dutch uncle”. I think everyone pretty much knows what “going Dutch” means, but it can actually be related to the farm doors on a Dutch barn house that are spit into two. But the “Dutch uncle” is someone who issues frank, harsh or severe comments and criticism to educate, encourage, or admonish someone. Xiaohua: “go Dutch” 大家都知道是什么意思。我记得在以前的词汇小百科里，我们也解释过。那么“Dutch uncle”是指老是喜欢教育别人，说话不招人待见的人。 John: Then we are going to Russia with Russian roulette. Basically, you have a revolver which is a type of gun. A revolver has six different holes for six bullets. But in Russian roulette, you only put one bullet in one of the slots. You spin the barrel and then you play a game where each person has to put the gun to their head and pull the trigger. Xiaohua: Yes. 俄罗斯轮盘赌可不是普通的赌博，而是真的在赌命，那么左轮手枪的转轮一转立刻就要决出生死。I think that’s the most stupid game I’ve ever seen. John: Yeah, actually there is really no evidence to say that this actually comes from Russia at all. Instead, there was a short story by Georges Surdez in 1937, when he basically explained what he called the time Russian roulette. Now we are going to our favorite place in the entire world, China, to take a look at some words. So there are the Chinese wall and Chinese whispers. For Chinese wall, we usually don’t use these type of phrases in the United States any more. They are not considered to be politically correct. So a Chinese wall is basically just an information barrier or a communication wall between two different departments in the same organization. Usually, these days, we don’t call it a Chinese wall any more. We usually call it a fire wall. Xiaohua: Chinese wall指的是难以逾越的障碍，那么也指的是在商业中两个部门的人员之间的隔离以避免内幕交易。 John: And then there is the Chinese whispers, which I never heard of until today actually. For Chinese whispers, in the United States, we call it telephone. And basically it’s a game where we have a long line of people and someone at the beginning of the line whispers something like a sentence or phrase to the next person; then it has to keep going on. And more than likely, when it gets to the last person, the message has changed substantially, sometimes even to a comedic effect. Xiaohua: 不知道有些英语专业的人，你们的老师有没有给你们玩过Chinese whisper的游戏，在美国又叫telephone。

Xiaohua: Hello, welcome to the Round table’s Word of the Week. This week let’s get a little bit sporty and talk about different kinds of exercises. John: Yeah, so first we are going to talk about aerobic exercise, sometimes known as cardio, and basically this is a type of physical exercise of relatively low intensity that depends primarily on the aerobic energy generating process. So aerobic literally means relating to, involving or requiring free oxygen. Xiaohua: 有氧运动aerobic exercises一般是指在人体氧气充分供应的情况下进行的体育锻炼。一般来说，强度比较低，持续的时间也比较长一些。 John: Usually when we talk about aerobic or cardiovascular exercises, we are talking about medium to long distance running or jogging, swimming, cycling and walking. Xiaohua: 举例来说，有氧运动包括慢跑，游泳，骑自行车，还有走路。 John: And you can actually break it down into two different types of aerobic exercises. High-impact which means both your feet leave the ground simultaneously during the workout, so running, jumping rope, skipping, and things like that. And low-impact means that at least one foot stays in contact with the ground at all times, so things like walking or even technically, although there is really no feet involved, swimming or cycling are also considered low-impact. Xiaohua: high-impact就是高强度的。高强度的有氧锻炼一般是指在运动中双脚都会离地的运动，比如说跳绳，跑步。低强度的有氧训练是指比如走路，另外游泳也可以算在里面。 John: We’ll talk about what anaerobic means next week, but first I just want to give you a quick comparison. So anaerobic exercises deals with releasing energy through the creation of lactic acid, whereas aerobic exercise deals with creating energy through oxygen. Xiaohua: 跟有氧运动相对的是无氧运动。无氧运动是指在运动中会产生大量乳酸的运动，一般都是强度非常高的。有氧运动则是需要在氧气供应充分的情况下进行的锻炼。 John: Exactly. Let’s take a look at some different types of aerobic exercises. So as we mentioned before, I think one of the most popular and easily available type of aerobic exercises is running. Xiaohua: 跑步，或者说慢跑。 John: Yeah, exactly. And looking at good running technique for everyone interested, actually, leaning forward places a runner’s center of mass on the front part of the foot, which avoids landing on the heel. Also you want to make sure you have upright posture with a relaxed frame and keep your core upright and stable. Xiaohua: 跑步也有很多技巧。首先是身体前倾，然后重心要放在前脚掌部分。另外就是保持上身正直。 John: Now let’s take a look at some equipment. A treadmill is device for walking or running while staying in the same place. You’ll see that almost every signal gym that you go to is going to have some people on treadmill. Xiaohua: treadmill就是跑步机，a pretty interesting name as well. John: And now we come to my favorite piece of equipment in terms of aerobic exercises that elliptical trainer or sometimes even called the cross-trainer or X-trainer. And it’s a stationary machine that is used to simulate stair climbing, walking, or running without causing excessive pressure to the joints. So the two places where you put your feet, they actually move in ellipses which are basically just kind of oval sheet pattern. Xiaohua: elliptical trainer又叫做椭圆机或空中漫步机，也是经常看到的一种健身器械。可能漫步机最主要的好处就是它最大限度地减少了跑步带来的运动伤害。 John: Yeah, so also looking at more pieces of equipment you can find in the gym, indoor rower or rowing machine, actually is used to simulate the action of watercraft rowing for the purpose of exercise or training. Then there is a stationary bicycle which I think is fairly self-explanatory, just a bicycle or piece of equipment that simulates the experience of riding bicycle without going anywhere. Xiaohua: 还有划船机rowing machine和stationary bicycle室内自行车。 John: The last thing I do want to mention, because I think it’s very interesting, is high-intensity interval training. High-intensity interval training is very, very interesting. It becomes popular over the last couple of years and uses anaerobic exercises to produce aerobic benefits. Looking at certain studies, they found that 2.5 hours of sprint interval training produced similar muscle changes to 10.5 hours of endurance training. Xiaohua: HIIT( high-intensity interval training)最近在国内和国际都非常火，中文叫做高强度间歇性训练，其实就是在做无氧运动的情况下达到有氧运动的效果，but it’s extremely, extremely tiring. John: Yeah, that’s the whole point, because you know, there is the seven minutes interval training that becomes very very popular and the whole idea is that you do that and you’ll see metabolic changes in your body. Your actual metabolism will rise significantly throughout the entire day, for example if you do it in the morning. Xiaohua: Exactly. That’s all we have for Round Table’s Word of the Week. John: Tune in the next week for when we talk about anaerobic exercise.

Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. Today we’re talking about bikini, a word that everyone knows but maybe not everyone knows the origin of. John: As Xiaohua just said, almost everyone knows what a bikini is. But just to be clear, the bikini is a two-piece swimsuit with a bra top and panties cut below the navel. So it’s not just a two-piece swimsuit. Specifically, it is a fairly revealing two-piece swimsuit. Xiaohua：嗯，比基尼我们都知道是什么意思，就是一种两片式的由胸衣还有三角裤构成的泳衣。 John：Now it’s really interesting that are actually lots of different bikini variants. Basically just has the -kini or the -ini at the end. So you have the monokini, the microkini, the tankini, the trikini, the sling bikini among many others. And we’ll talk about what those are specifically a little bit later. Xiaohua: So where does the word bikini come from? John: Well, interestingly enough, it actually comes from the Bikini Atoll in the Pacific Ocean, where the United States actually tested its first peace-time nuclear weapons. So the word bikini has nothing to do with the actually meaning of bikini. Bikini in the local language of that area basically means the surface of coconuts. But the original designer of the bikini named it after the Bikini Atoll because he was hoping it was going to be just as explosive as the nuclear bomb test. Xiaohua: I see. 所以比基尼这个词其实来自太平洋的一个小岛，叫比基尼岛，Bikini Atoll。在上世纪40年代的时候，美国曾在比基尼岛上试爆过原子弹。bikini在当地语言中的意思是“椰子的表面”，但这并不是比基尼设计者用这个词给泳衣命名的原因，他是希望这种泳衣发明，效果或者影响力会像原子弹爆炸一样。 John：So the French mechanical engineer who actually came up with the bikini, the reason that he did it: he was actually working at his mother’s lingerie shop, and he noticed on the beach that many women, they had two-piece swimsuits that were fairly modest you might say. But he noticed that many women were actually rolling them up to get a better tan. And that’s how he came up with the idea for bikini, so a lot less fabric. The thing is, at the time, it was hugely risqué and deemed inappropriate for many women to be wearing. The Vatican completely outlawed them. In the U.S., in many cases, you had beaches that would ban people, men and women, from wearing this kind of very revealing underwear. But it wasn’t until the 1950s that Hollywood stars such as Bridget Bardot, Rita Hayworth, Lana Turner, Elizabeth Taylor, they started to wear these bikinis, mostly because it got them a lot of attention. And then it kind of came to the main stream. Xiaohua: 比基尼的发明者是一位法国人，他的灵感实际上是这么来的。他在海滩上看到很多妇女穿着两片式的泳衣，但她们实际上把自己的泳衣向上卷起来，这样可以更好地晒到阳光。但是当他发明这款比基尼泳衣之后，在当时的西方社会引起了非常大的轰动，很多人都不能接受这种很暴露的穿着方式。一直到20世纪50年代，有很多好莱坞明星开始穿着比基尼之后，比基尼才开始流行起来。 John: And of course, this is where the notion of bikini tan comes from, basically where a woman, or a man, because there are men’s bikinis, just the bottom part really. You can see they have a tan line, a bikini tan line where the bikini actually is. Xiaohua: bikini-tanline就是穿着比基尼泳衣时晒太阳在皮肤上留下的一种痕迹。 John: Let’s take a look at the different and many variations. We’re only going to give you a small sampling. Certainly there are more, but here are some of the more interesting ones. So a bandeau-kini, sometimes also called a bandini, is any bikini bottom worn with a bandeau as the top, so basically it’s a strapless top. Xiaohua: bankini, 或者是bandeau-kini，是指泳衣的上身是由抹胸构成的泳衣。 John：And a microkini, including a minikini or a mini-mini, is basically an extremely skimpy bikini. So you take what the bikini already is, fairly revealing, and you make it even more revealing. Xiaohua: microkini就是用料非常节省的泳衣。We all know what the effects are like. John: Exactly. And a monokini or a unikini or sometimes even a numokini is basically just the bottom part, the panties of the bikini itself. And really it just refers to any type of topless swimsuit, Xiaohua: monokini, 就是没有上片，只有三角裤的一种泳衣。I don’t anyone who will wear that. John: You are not gonna see this in China. But topless swim bathing happens quite often in Europe. And then there is the skirtini, which is a bikini top and a small, skirted bottom. So basically it just gives you a bit more coverage on the bottom. Xiaohua: 下半身是裙式的这种bikini叫skirtini. This is quite commonly seen in China. John: Yeah very common. And then there is a string bikini, sometimes called a tie-side. Basically the bottom is just held together by 2 pieces of string. Xiaohua: 系绳式bikini叫string bikini。 John: Then, last but not least for today, there is a tankini, which is a swimsuit combining a tank top, and then of course, the bikini bottom. Xiaohua: Tankini上身的泳衣是背心式的。That’s a lot of knowledge for one day. John: And there is so much more. I think that for me, I know nothing about women’s fashion. But certainly, I myself and doing the research learnt more than I ever needed to know. Xiaohua: That’s right, and that wraps up roundtable’s Word of the Week.