Podcasts about john then

“John: Is it then doubtful that you might doubt? Doubting Thomas: I sincerely doubt that. John: Then why are you Doubting Thomas? Doubting Thomas: This is a trap.” Referenced Links: Live At Leeds: Order A Copy Of The Who Live At Leeds (That's Not Original) AI Voices & Other Stuff @ Online Tone Generator Credits: These podcasts are productions of Little Red Hen Industries. Learn about financial education & personal financial management in this episode with John Brandy on the Simple Success podcast. Learn more about Simple Success with John Brandy using our all-in-one access link here Visit the Simple Success with John Brandy website today! We have websites for both podcasts & there's a Listen Notes site for even more personal ideas. Send us a video, audio or text message, but of course you'll have to head to the show notes to get links. Simple Success Web: https://www.simplesuccesswithjohnbrandy.com/ A Choice Voice Web: https://www.achoicevoice.com/ iOS Simple Success: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simple-success-with-john-brandy/id1549566678 Droid Simple Success: https://podcasts.google.com/search/simple%20success%20with%20john%20brandy iOS A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-choice-voice-with-john-brandy/id1560026051 Droid A Choice Voice: https://podcasts.google.com/search/a%20choice%20voice%20with%20john%20brandy Support: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/support Voice Msgs: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message https://anchor.fm/achoicevoice/message ListenNotes (Podcast Playlists & Stuff): https://www.listennotes.com/playlists/john-brandys-podcast-playlist-GxK2g7uwZDU/podcasts/ Finally, you can find us on Podmatch, where we consider guests & guesting on other pods. Podmatch Host https://podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true Podmatch Guest https://podmatch.com/guestdetailpreview/1611285111512x890580376127176400?return=true And really finally, our music and sound effects come from freesound.org --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/simplesuccess/support

We all have something we want to pursue, a goal or an objective we want to reach. We might not always know what it is from the get-go, but as we go on, we can find what we value doing the most. Now, there may be obstacles in our paths, making it feel like our goals are but unachievable and improbable dreams. However, when you are pursuing what you value, nothing can stop you from achieving your destiny.   In this episode, world-renowned human behaviour specialist Dr John Demartini joins us to inspire you to start pursuing what you value. He shares advice and a range of wonderful stories on this topic. Learning about delegation can greatly help you with pursuing what you value. We also talk about the neuroscience of flow states and getting people to understand the quality of your work. If you're mulling over starting your journey to doing what you love, listen to this episode! This might be the push you need to reach for what you've thought was improbable.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition, and mental performance to your specific genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training and coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com. We can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books, Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, dramatically decreases over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting-edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost NAD+ levels in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity, rigorously tested by an independent, third-party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third-party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop Now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500 mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust: NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting-edge science) combats the effects of ageing and is designed to boost NAD+ levels. The NMN capsules are manufactured in an ISO 9001-certified facility. Boost Your NAD+ Levels: Healthy Ageing Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn about delegation and how you can utilise it to make the most out of your job. Discover the two different flow states that come into play when you're doing what you love best. Listen to a variety of enlightening stories that show how pursuing what you value can change your life.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to the Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #198: How to Prioritise and Reach Your Goals with Dr John Demartini Connect with Dr Demartini: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube Check out Elon Musk's interview on 60 Minutes. A new program, BoostCamp, is coming this September at Peak Wellness!      Episode Highlights [04:21] Achieving the Improbable No matter what obstacles you face, you will get up again if you have a big enough reason. Each of us has a set of priorities. At the very top is our destiny, which is non-negotiable. When you're pursuing what you value, you'll continue regardless of pleasure or pain.  By delegating low-priority things, you can go on pursuing what you value.  [09:20] The Importance of Delegation As long as you're doing your top priority, something that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Delegation frees up your time so you can pursue something that makes more income. However, when you don't recruit the right person, you end up losing money because you're having to micromanage and getting distracted.  [14:07] Hiring the Right People  Do the basics, such as references and background checks. Dr Demartini specifically asks what applicants would do if they never had to work another day in their life.  If they don't answer something close to the job description, he turns them down.  Don't hire somebody who can't see how the job you're offering can fulfil their highest value. Tune in to the full episode to hear how Dr Demartini helped one of his applicants pursue what they value! [26:06] Job Security vs. Pursuing What You Value Dr Demartini shares a story about how he guided a young man to chase after his dreams. He sees this man eight years later, the owner of eight franchises. Many people stay in their jobs because of security. However, quitting work and pursuing what you value is your choice. Dr Demartini's recalls a time when he accompanied a ditch digger to work. He was so proud of his job, as he brings water—and life—to people. It doesn't matter if the job seems small, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  [44:30] Taking Pride in What You Do When your identity revolves around pursuing what you value, the higher your pride is in your workmanship. You'll excel in whatever you do, as long as you're pursuing what you value.  People who are pursuing what they value go beyond what is expected of them. Whether you start early or late, you can always begin pursuing what you value.  Master planning is a way to get there quickly. [46:26] The Neuroscience of Flow States There are two flow states. The manic flow state is a high that does not last long, as it is driven by the amygdala and dopamine. You get into your real flow state when you are pursuing what you value—something truly inspiring and meaningful.  In the real flow state, you're willing to embrace both pain and pleasure while you are pursuing what you value. Dr Demartini likens the two states to infatuation versus love. Infatuation is short-lived and only sees the positives; love endures even the negatives.  Manic flow is transient; real flow is eternal. [53:33] Finding the Middle and Paying for Quality You shouldn't get over-excited about good things and over-depressed about bad ones. Stay in the middle. Looking at the downsides isn't cynicism. It shows that you have grounded objectives. Dr Demartini's father, who is in the plumbing business, carefully considers all variables before taking on a project. As such, he charges more than competitors. People will be more willing to pay for your work once you explain what sets it apart from others. If you get defensive about your work, you start to sound arrogant. Instead, try to be informative about the value of what you offer. [1:03:32] Staying Stable and Flexible  Dr Demartini is neither excited nor fearful about the future.  He looks at both sides so that he does not become too elated or depressed. Emulating this can help you be stable enough to keep pursuing what you value. Over support leads to juvenile dependency, while challenges encourage independence.  Adapt and do what needs to be done. If you can't delegate it to others, learn to do it yourself.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode [05:34] ‘Nothing mortal, can interfere with an immortal vision.' [07:00] ‘There's wisdom in not doing low priority things; there's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you.' [23:18] ‘Don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want can help them fulfil their highest value.' [44:37] ‘The pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most.' [50:26] ‘Fantasies aren't obtainable, objectives are.' [54:31] ‘If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside.' [1:06:22] ‘People can be really resourceful if somebody doesn't rescue them.'   About Dr Demartini Dr John Demartini has been a public speaker for nearly 50 years. He is a world-renowned specialist in human behaviour, researcher, author, and educator. He empowers people from all walks of life by sharing his knowledge on self-development and financial wellness. One of his fields of interest is personal development where he has developed a curriculum of programs. One of his seminars, The Breakthrough Experience, uses his revolutionary techniques, the Demartini Method and the Demartini Value Determination Process.  If you want to learn more about Dr Demartini and his work, you may visit his website. You can also see him on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you were inspired to start pursuing what you value, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they too can be pushed to go after their passion. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of the Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa, brought to you by www.lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: I want to welcome you back to Pushing The Limits. This week, I have Dr John Demartini. Now you may recognise that latter name. He's been on the show before. And he's definitely one that I want to have him back on again. He is an incredible teacher, and educator, and author of I don't know how many dozens of books. He's been working in the personal development in space for 50 years, I think. Incredible man.  I hope you enjoy part two of this very in-depth conversation about upgrading your life–how to grow your businesses. We talk about also how to reach your full potential. And what sort of things we put in our own way. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr John. Also, I would like to let you know we have a Boost Camp coming up. This is a, not a boot camp. It's all about upgrading your life. This is all about being the best version of yourself that you can be, upgrading everything in your life from your health fundamentals to things like sleep, and understanding your brain better your mood and behaviour. Lots and lots of science, and lots of information, and stuff that's going to be actually practical stuff that you can implement in your life to improve how you're performing your health, your vision and purpose in life. And aligning all of these things together.  I hope you'll come and join us. This is an eight-week program that is live with Neil Wagstaff and myself. Neil is my longtime coach and business partner. And he runs all the programs with me that we do with epigenetics, with running hot coaching, and so on. And he is an incredible teacher. I do hope you'll check it out. You can go to peakwellnessco.co.nz, peakwellness, p-e-a-k, peak wellness dot co dot NZ forward-slash boost camp, b-o-o-s-t-c-a-m-p. To find out more, and come and join us, it's going to be a fantastic writer and you're going to learn an awful lot and get to hang out with a whole bunch of people while you're doing it. So check that out.  I also like to remind you too, of our Patron program. We have a Patron program for the podcast to help us keep this on-air, keep us great content, to help us keep the mission going. If you're into doing that, please, for the price of a coffee or a month. Sorry, a coffee a month, you can be involved in this project. And you can also get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits for your troubles. So check all that out at patron.lisatamati.com, p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisa tamati dot com. Right. Now, over to the show with Dr John Demartini.  Hi, everyone. And welcome back to Pushing The Limits. I'm super excited to have an amazing name back again for a second round, Dr John Demartini. Welcome to the show, Dr John. It's fabulous to have you back again.  Dr John: Demartini: Yes, thank you for having me back.  Lisa: It's just–I was so blown away by our conversation last time. And I know you do thousands of these interviews and in the work that you do that you probably can't even remember what you talked about. But it was a real life-changing episode that ended up– we dived into some of your medical work earlier. We went all over the place with your breakthrough experience. I just felt like we didn't quite cover all the bases that I want to tap into your great knowledge.  Having you back again today, and today I thought we'd look at things like I want to dive into things like, ‘How do we achieve the impossible?' I've been doing a lot of work and researching around, what is it that makes incredible people incredible? And that they had the ability to overcome incredible odds and difficulties and obstacles in order to achieve some possible things. And I'm pretty much into a lot of the big thinkers out there. So I wanted to start directly if that's okay. How do we achieve the impossible, Dr John?  Dr John: Well, I don't know. Maybe that's a bit of a metaphor–the impossible is impossible.  Lisa: But yeah, it's a metaphor.  Dr John: Improbable, the improbable.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr John: When the why is big enough the hows take care of thems elves. When you have a big enough reason for doing something, no matter how many obstacles you face, you get up again. And there was an interview. There was an interview by a gentleman I think from 60 minutes with Elon Musk. And they asked him after having three launches explode back to back. ‘You ever think about giving up?' He looked at the guy and he says, ‘I never give up. I'd have to be incapacitated.' Meaning that his mission to go to Mars is too important for any obstacle that might arise to stop it. I would say nothing mortal can interfere with an immortal vision.  Each of us, as you know, have a set of priorities. And the very top, top, top priority is non-negotiable. It's where human sovereignty and divine providence come together, where you feel that it's impossible for you not to fulfil your true destiny. I feel that way with my mission of speaking. I just felt that that was my destiny when I was 17. And I've been doing it 48 plus years now, be soon 49 in a few months. So if you'd have a big enough reason for doing it, you'll see the challenges on the way, not in the way. It's like Edison, a thousand ways to that didn't work for the light bulb to get the light bulb. There was no option about getting a light bulb, he knew he would come up with an answer, he just kept, ‘Okay, that doesn't work. Okay, next. That one doesn't work, next.'  When things are lower on your value, you'll do it if there's pleasure; you'll stop doing it if there's pain. When something's tying your value, you'll do it regardless of pleasure or pain. And you'll see both of them on the way, not in the way. So there's wisdom in not doing low-priority things. There's wisdom in not pursuing something that's not truly and deeply meaningful to you. People who do that build incremental momentum that reaches an unstoppable state, an inertia that's unstoppable. That's the key to extraordinary things. And when it's truly aligned with your value, your identity revolves around it, you feel it's impossible for you not to do it. It's not an option; it's who you are. Lisa: So this involves looking at your values determination, how to sort out what your real– because I think this is where a lot of us come unstuck. We have lots of things we want to do, and we're curious about lots of things and have lots of passions, and it's sorting out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, in order, distilling down that vision so that you're actually hyper-focused and being able to concentrate on the things that you need to concentrate on. I know that's something that I definitely struggle with, when you have so many things that you're interested in. But you're really right when you say like, for me, with my story with my mom, if you remember bringing her back from the mess of aneurysm, there was a non-negotiable. We were doing it, and I was going to get her back or die trying was the attitude that I went inwards. That means sacrificing whatever it took to get to that place. And then we do get there, you know?  Dr John: Well, the thing is not to pursue low-priority things, and to know what those are, and say and delegate everything other than what's important. I don't do anything but research, write, teach. Those are the three things I love doing. But it's all about educating people in human behaviour. So that's the one thing that is non-negotiable that I do. Then I delegate everything else away. That way, you don't have to be distracted and run down. What drains you is doing low priority things. Lisa: Yeah. And this is a lot– yeah, this is a lot that a lot of people, especially startup entrepreneurs, and people that are just getting there, finding your way, are struggling with: the whole delegation thing when they don't have a team around them. What sort of advice do you want to give to people who are at the beginning of their career and don't have a team yet around them to help do all those aspects of it that are draining the hell out of their lives? Dr John: Well, what you do is you ask the question, ‘How is doing this action temporarily until I can find somebody to delegate it to helping me fulfil my mission?' Link it to your brain. Reframe its words. You see it on the way, not in a way, with the knowing that you're going to delegate it. And then, it doesn't cost to delegate. It costs not to. As long as you're doing what's highest in priority that produces the most per hour, it doesn't cost to delegate. Because you're releasing yourself to do the most important thing that produces the most income that produces more than the cost of the delegation, and that they can produce. And yet the person that would love to do that inspired to do that but doesn't have to be motivated to do that. They will spontaneously do it without even thinking about it, you can free yourself up. In 1982, end of 1982, I hired somebody to take care of my financial things: paying payroll, paying bills, bank reconciliations, all that stuff. Because I was sitting there in October of 1982. I was sitting there doing a bank balance, like, ‘What on earth am I doing?' I didn't want to do it. It was distracting, time-consuming. And while I was doing it, I didn't want to think about clients because it was interfering. I needed to get this done, and I'm pushing clients away. I freed that up, and I have not gone back, nor even seen a chequebook. That's 1982. Lisa: Gosh I would love that.  Dr John: I can't even tell you what a chequebook in my company looks like. Lisa: Or accounting or any software.  Dr John: I don't have any of that stuff. I have somebody that does that. That's their job. I– because that's a 20 to $50 an hour job. And why do I value my time? Well, I can make thousands per hour, and tens of thousands per hour. Lisa: But what about the people that can't make the ten thousands of per hour or the thousands per hour, and there's still a net, they're still in taking that leap into getting the first person in the team on board and the second person. I think there's a lot of people in that, jumping from, say, the $100,000 mark to the million-dollar mark of a turnover in a company where it's chaos. I think it's chaos beyond that as well. But it's that getting the initial, taking that risk when you don't have a solid income yet, and yet, you're taking a risk on hiring a business manager or hiring whatever, even assistants. Dr John: If you have a clear job description and you have a clear actions that you can do that can produce more per hour than having to do those things, and you can see, ‘Well, I'm doing five hours a day doing trivial. If I had those five hours, could I go out and close deals?' If you're willing to do that it doesn't cost, ever cost, to hire people.  Lisa: Yeah. So it's a mindset shift, really?  Dr John: Yeah. Because what happens is you think, well, if you're not going to be productive, and they're now, you're just going to pay somebody to do something you were doing, and you're not going to go produce more per hour than it's going to cost. But it frees you up to do something that closes a deal or makes a bigger deal. Makes more income. You're insane not to do it. Now, in my situation, I saw that if I was out doing presentations and taking care of clients, I can make more than tenfold what is going to cost, 20-fold to 100-fold what I was going to pay somebody to do it. It's a no-brainer.  It doesn't cost to hire somebody. Unless you do it ineffectively. You are somebody who doesn't love doing it, you're pushing him uphill, is not inspired by it, and you have the skill by it, and you're micromanaging him and you're having to distract yourself, and you're not doing the thing that produces. That's why it costs money. Not because of delegation, but inadequate delegation. Lisa: So in other words, recruiting the right people to your team is a huge piece of this and getting the right— So what are some of the things that you do when you're analysing somebody to take on into your team? What are some of the processes that you go through from an entrepreneurial standpoint? Dr John: Well, I do all the basics: references and checks and those things. But I just sit them down when I meet them if they get through the screening. I sit down with them. I said, ‘If I was to write a check right now for $10 million and handed it to you, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do with your life?' If they're, they don't say what the job is or close to it, I say, ‘Thank you very much.' I walk away.  Lisa: Right? Because they're not. That's not the key thing.  Dr John: That's not their dream. Can I share an interesting story? I don't think I shared this before. Sorry. If I had, just tell me, cut me off. When I was in practice many years ago, I was hiring a manager, and I was scaling up and delegating more and more. We were down to two people's potentials: one was a woman, one was a man. And the man was in for that evening, about five o'clock. I worked till six, usually, but at five, I was telling my patients, five o'clock, this gentleman comes in. He had passed much of the things I thought. But he came into my office. He had a little briefcase, is about 54, looks like a violator jet, this guy. He comes in, sits down on the edge of his chair, and he says, ‘Wow, this is a great opportunity. I've had the opportunity to work with your company would be fantastic. I'm awe-inspired.' I said, ‘Great. Hope you don't mind. But I just got a few questions.' And I had a check. This is back before I got rid of my checks. I got a check that my lady at the front organised. I had the check in front of me. And I said, ‘Your proper name is?' I put his name on the cheque. I wrote 10 million US dollars.  Lisa: It was a real piece?  Dr John: I didn't sign it, but I just put it there. I made sure he saw it. Because any facade he might have, if he saw a check with $10 million on it, his name on it, that's going to distract him. Because the infatuation of that's going to throw any facade that he might try to put on me, ultimately. So I said, ‘If I was to hand you this cheque,' and I showed him the cheque. ‘And I gave you $10 million upfront, and you never had to work another day in your life. What would you do?'  Lisa: What did he say?  Dr John: And he leaned back in his chair like this. He goes, he relaxed a second. He goes, ‘Wow, if I had $10 million. What would I do? I would manufacture furniture. I have a hobby. I love making furniture. I'd make furniture and open up furniture companies.' I said, I got up. I said, ‘Thanks very much.' He stood up and he was like, ‘What?' He said, ‘Well, did I get the job?' I said, ‘No.' ‘Do you mind if I ask why?' I said, ‘Very simple. I'm hiring you for a management position. You said if you had $10 million, you'd love to make furniture. If you're a great manager, how come you haven't managed your life in such a way where you can do what you love?' He just looked at me and he just paused because that's a very good question. ‘And I have nothing I could say, except, you just woke me up.' I said, ‘Thank you,' and I escort him out.  I watched him walk with his head down slowly to his car and sit in his car for a few minutes to just process that. He's like going, ‘Whoa. I thought I'm looking for a job. I'm enthused, I'm really excited, everything else. And I just got slammed with a reality check of what was really important to me. And the real truth was, is I love making furniture.' So he sat in that car, and finally slowly drove off and we ruled him out. We ruled the girl out. So we had to go through another round. Yeah.  Lisa: And so this is part of the process.  Dr John: Three weeks had gone by. And all of a sudden my assistant said. ‘Dr Demartini, there's a gentleman here a few weeks ago that was looking for a job. He's back.' ‘Alright, okay.' He said, she said ‘Should I just sent him back in?' I said, ‘Yeah.' I come down to the same office, same thing, comes in. I'm sitting in the same place, you sit in the same place. But this time, he walks in with a paper bag, a big paper bag, large paper bag with handles on. He said, ‘Dr Demartini,' shook my hand. He said, ‘Dr Demartini. I was here a few weeks ago,' I said, ‘Oh. Yeah, I remember you.' He said, ‘You changed my life.' I said, ‘How so?' He said, ‘When I was enthusiastic looking for the job, I've been looking for a job for three months. I didn't find one. I thought when you said, if I'm such a good manager, how come I haven't managed my own life? And you nailed me. I was a bit depressed after that, and I had a soul searching, and I had a conversation with my wife. Part of the reasons I was taking on jobs is for security instead of doing what I really love to do. And so after that conversation, I told my wife that and I said, “If I was to go out and try to build my own company in furniture manufacturing, would you endure the, whatever we go through to get there?” And she hugged him, and she says, “That's what you've always wanted to do. We'll make ends meet. We'll find a way.”'  He started his company. He started telling people he's there to make furniture and he started making pieces of furniture. He made a bed, and he made a dresser, and he started making furniture and stuff. He also made it available that he could do interior in homes that were being built. He started letting people know in his network. So he's back in my office three weeks later, and he told me that that's the best thing ever happened to his life. He says, ‘I've already got commissioned $5,400 worth of product with the furniture, and that's in three weeks. I'm on track, probably for making $10,000 to my first month now. And that's more than what I was probably going to get paid.'  I said, ‘Congratulations.' And this is what he said to me. He said, ‘You have no idea how much more energy I have, how inspired I am. I don't care about how many hours it is I'm working. I'm staying up, and I'm a different man. I'm loving it. I'm in, I now understand what an entrepreneur is, a bit.' And he said, ‘But this is what I want to do. Because you gave me such a gift. When I came in your office, I noticed the wood. Because you filter with your polar nuclei of your diencephalonic thalamus. You put, you filter reality coin, what you value most. So he noticed the wood in my office.  He said, ‘And I noticed that you had Kleenex boxes sitting on these little rolling carts. It would really be honourable for me if I could actually take those little Kleenex boxes, and melt my Kleenex box systems on your wall that match your wood. All you do is lift them up on a hinge, put the Kleenex box and pull the tissue, put it back down to replace it. And then you have more space on your thing, because I noticed you had less space on there than probably ideal. It really means a lot to me if I can put them in all your rooms.' I said, ‘I would be honoured to have those in there. And I want you to do me a favour. I want you to put your card on the bottom of each one. So I can, for referrals.' He said, ‘I would be glad to do that.' He said, ‘But that would mean a lot. Because you just changed my life.'  He ended up doing what he really loved to do, grew his business. I got complimentary things in all my rooms, which was an added bonus. But it just goes to show that people, when they're doing something that's deeply meaningful, truly inspiring, high in priority, they excel. So don't ever hire anybody who can't see how the job description you want to help them fulfil their highest value. Lisa: Be it personal and be it roles. And not this division of the company. Dr John: The actual actions. So you make sure you have a job description with all the actions and you ask your potential candidate: ‘How specifically is doing this actually going to help you fulfil what's most deeply meaningful to you?' If they can't answer it, don't hire them. If they answer with enthusiasm on all those things, you get them, grab them. If they don't, don't worry because they're going to be microman— you're gonna have to motivate them. Motivation is a symptom, never a solution to humanity. Lisa: And in changing that, I've got a friend Joe Polish. If you know Joe, he's a very famous marketing man and an incredible connector and so on. He talks about, he was talking about entrepreneurship one day, I forget the context of the situation. But he teaches about entrepreneurial things, how to do it. He's hugely successful. Someone said to him once, ‘You've had the same assistant for the last 21 years, for how many years, a lot of years. If she's been hearing you talk about how wonderful it is to be an entrepreneur to do all these things, how come she hasn't gotten that information and runoff and become her own entrepreneur?'  He called the lady over and he said, ‘Why is it that you still with me?' He knew the answer. But she answered, ‘Because I don't want to take on the risk. That's not my job. That's not my passion. My passion is to serve Joe and be the person in the backstage setting all those things up. That is my highest power. That is what I love. That's why I'm still here. I love working with Joe, and I love his mission. And that's what I'm happy doing.' That's the key, is not everybody should be an entrepreneur. Or everybody should be having the same mission. It's that she understands what her passions, what the job is. Dr John: If everybody was an entrepreneur, who would be working for him? Lisa: Yeah. We'd have a hell of a mess. And being an entrepreneur is a long, arduous, often difficult, lonely road full of holes, along the way, potholes. It isn't for everybody, but for people like you and for me, it's, I can go for it. I've got to be running my own ship. And learning from people like you is great for me because then I can see what helps my next steps and what I should be doing. Instead of—  Dr John: Can I share another story?  Lisa: Go for it. Dr John: So, right about the same time when I was hiring that other person, a young gentleman, late 20s, I'm guessing, mid to late 20s, came into my office, and asked if he could have a meeting with me. And he worked with Yellow Pages. There used to be a thing called Yellow Page.  Lisa: Yeah. I'm old enough.  Dr John: They were ads, telephone ads. You put a listing, it's free. But if you put a listing with a little box or a little ad in it, it's a little bit more. You bought the Yellow Page ad. So he was trying to sell Yellow Page ad. So he sat in my office. And he started to do this little spiel. And I had the time. So I took a moment to do it. Because I was curious what the prices were. And at the end of his little spiel, and not even to the end, three quarters through, I stopped him. I said ‘Stop. Just stop.' That was the worst presentation. That was so off. I said, ‘This is not what you want to do in life. What do you really want to do in life?' And he looked at me and he goes, ‘That bad?' And I said, ‘It was bad.' ‘I bet you haven't sold anything.' He says, ‘No, I haven't.' I said, ‘This is not you. What's your heart? Where's your heart? What do you really, really, really, really dream about doing in your career?' He said, ‘I want to be in the restaurant business.' I said, ‘Go to a restaurant today to get a job there, and work your way up until you own your restaurant.' He goes, ‘Well, I needed to hear that. Because I respect you and I needed to hear that from you.' And then I sold him a little audio cassette tape that I'd done, called The Psychology of Attainment. And he bought it, it was only 10 bucks.  He walked out with his $10 thing to listen to because I knew if he listened to it, it would encourage him to keep it going. He left there. Eight years go by, never seen the guy again. Eight years go by. I had moved to a new office. And I was on my way to go have lunch with my CPA. He picked me up. I came downstairs, he picked me up, took me to this little Super Salad restaurant nearby because we both had less than an hour to eat. So it's quick. Get in there and get a salad. You walk in and this Super Salad is a thing where you get a tray, and it's got a whole bunch of foods. And whatever it is they weigh it, and they charge you the acquired weight. So you get salad. You pay less if you get something with it.  As I walked in, and we started going to the line, I saw that young man grown up eight years older in this suit, talking to another man in a suit. And I said, ‘If you don't mind going get me a tray. And I'll catch up. I see someone I must say hi to.' I walk over to this guy. He's talking this man. He's not paying attention to me. I'm standing right next to him. And as he's talking I'm just standing there waiting for him to finish. All of a sudden he finishes, the guy starts to walk off he turns around as if he's going to say, ‘Can I help you?'  Lisa: Yeah, he didn't realise this.  Dr John: And obviously he looks at me and he goes, ‘Oh my god. Wow, wow.' He shook my hand, and ran off and got the other guy to come here, ‘This is the guy I told you about.' And he told him, ‘This is the guy.' And the guy said, ‘Oh, thank you. I'd love to meet you. He's told me all about you, he said you changed his life.' And I said, ‘Well didn't know until today. What impact– Lisa: What are you doing? Yeah. Dr John: But the guy told me, he says, ‘I have eight franchises. I come into my restaurant. That was the manager. I'm checking up on my restaurants and I'll go to the next one. I check them out once a week, I go make my rounds.' He said, ‘That day, I got me a job at Super Salad. I worked myself into a management position for over two years. As I was saving the heck out of my money, which your tape set said to do, I bought into the franchises and I got eight franchises.' Lisa: Jesus! Just from that one tape, that one conversation, see this is the impact– Dr John: I said to him, ‘You just inspired me.' It brought a tear to my eye to know that– because I thought maybe I was a bit tough on you. He said, ‘Sir, you did the most amazing thing to my life that day. Because the truth is, I wanted to be in the restaurant business. And now I am.' Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing The Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a Patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's p-a-t-r-o-n dot lisatamati dot com. We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us, everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Lisa: You've encouraged him basically to have faith in the dream and to– because everybody else, like your family, often your friends, often are, ‘You can't leave that safe job.' I've had this conversation with my husband who's a firefighter. And he says like, ‘I can never leave the fire brigade because it's what I've always done. And that's how I've always, you know, it was my passion,' and so on. And I said, ‘Yes, but you don't have to stay there. That's your choice. Opt for security and– If you want security, if you want to do something, then do it. Life is short.' Dr John: All I know is that if you're not doing something you're inspired by, life can be pretty horrible. I see people. I didn't, I used to get, I lived in New York for a while. And we lived in Trump Tower there, fifty-sixth and fifth, right underneath Donald, so I knew Donald. So I live there for 29 years. And sometimes, you can take taxi. Sometimes, you take, when we're going in the airport, I got a limo. But just going around the city, sometimes I'd have a taxi. I get in the taxi and I– if there was a mess, sometimes I'd pass it by. I go, ‘No, smelly. No, no respect.' But again, in a taxi– if I'm in a hurry, it's hard to get, right? It's 3:30 to 4 o'clock march, I get in whatever I get, because I don't want to wait another 20 minutes. But I get it and I go, ‘How long have you been driving a taxi?' And they'll say a year, five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, whatever it may be. I said, ‘Do you love it?' Some will look in the mirror and go, ‘Pays the bills, man.' And I said, ‘But do you love it?' He goes, ‘Are you kidding, man? If I got a thing in New York, you got to be nuts.' And they have that attitude.  Of course, the car is usually a mess. It's got ripped holes in it. It's got cigarette burns. It's got a little bit of an odour. You know it's not taken cared of; it's not clean. But then you get in another car. And, ‘How long have you driven a taxi?' ‘28 years.' I said, ‘Do you love it?' ‘I love it. I get to meet people like yourself. I meet the most amazing people every day. My father was a taxi driver. My grandfather was a taxi driver in New York. I know every city, every street, I know every part of the city. Here's my card. You want some water?' ‘Sure.' ‘Anything you need to let, give me feedback about my car, please tell me. If there's something not in order, if somebody left something there, if it's dirty, let me know. I'd like to make sure that everybody gets a good experience in my car. If you want to know about the city, you just ask me. Anytime you want to go anywhere in the city, you contact me. And there's my card, I will take you, and I'll make sure you got the best thing, and I'll be on time for you.' He was just engaged. And he loved it. And of course, I got his card. And I called him. And sometimes when I was going around the city, I would use him. He would even come back and pick me up. Lisa: And it shows you that it doesn't matter if you're cleaning toilets or you're a taxi driver or you're at the garbage disposal. Whatever job you're doing, do it well, for starters. That can be your mission in life, is to provide that service. It doesn't have to be taking on the world and flying to Mars like Elon Musk. It's just, do your job; do it well. I don't, I just– I have issue too, with people who just doing the job, getting the paycheck, not doing the job with passion.  You can tell. I walk into my gym and there's a new lady on reception who is just beaming from ear to ear, fully enthusiastic. I see her training; she trains like a maniac. She's just always happy and positive. When somebody comes into that gym now, they get a positive smiley receptionist. ‘Come in' and ‘How was your day?' The contrast to the other person that works at the gym who's surly looking, never smiles. And if you, say ‘Hello, how are you doing?' It's like, ‘Mmm.' And you think, ‘Wow, that is just the difference between someone who's just, “I'm so lucky to be here” and “I'm working.”'  Dr John: They're engaged versus disengaged. Can I share another story?  Lisa: This is great.  Dr John: Right. My father, I started working for my father when I was four. He owned a plumbing business. He wasn't a plumber. He's an engineer, but he had plumbers working for him. And my job was to clean the nipples. And they sound a little sexual, but it's actually, these little pipes and couplings, so it's interesting. But I used to scrape them out with a brush and oil them to make sure they would be preserved because they'll get a little rusty sitting around. Then, my dad would then, every once while, not every day, but most of the time, would give me the opportunity to go out with the plumbers to go on calls to learn plumbing. Everyone, so he would say, ‘Well, you're going to go with Joe today. You're going to go with Bob. You're going to go with Warren. You're going to go with…' And this one day, he said, ‘You're going to go with Jesse.'  I spend part of the day with Jesse. And Jesse was a ditch digger. He was an Afro-American man that was a ditch digger. And I said, ‘You want me to go with Jessie, am I going to dig a ditch?' He said, ‘Yes. I want you to go with Jesse.' I said, ‘Why?' He said, ‘You'll know when you get back.' ‘Okay.' So I go out with Jesse. We drive to this house that is about a 35-year-old house that needs a new water main from the street, the main from the street up to the house. And so he got a T-bar out, and he got a hose, and he got some paper, and he got a sharpshooter, which is a special shovel, and a little round-headed shovel, and a level and a string. This long string thing wrapped up on this piece of wood. And some, and another stick. The stick that had string around it where there are two sticks on either end. You could open them up unravelling. He stayed one at one place, stayed the other place, exactly where the line is going to go. Then he took a T-bar and went down into the ground to make sure there's no roots, no rocks, no anything that might interfere with the laying of a pipe. Then he watered it to make sure that you could go and if you dug it, it was just wet enough that it wouldn't crumble if you turn the sod over. And then he lined paper on one side of it. And then he showed me how to dig the ditch. I would go down to exactly the width of the sharpshooter, which is how deep it had to go. And then we would turn it over onto the paper. And that meant that the grass wasn't even cut, it was just folded over. Right. And we had a perfectly straight ditch. And then he showed me how to create the ditch with this other little thing. And it would go on top of the sides. It wouldn't fall off into the grass. It would just be on top of the paper, and on the inside. Then he took the level and he made sure that the grade was perfectly level from one place to the other because if you have a dip in it, water will sit there and rust and it'll wear out quicker. But if it flows exactly in line, you don't get as many rusting. We put this pipe down, pretty perfectly clear, perfectly graded. We levelled it, made sure it was perfectly level. We installed it to the house, into the main. We then put some of the dirt back over it. Put the sod back on, patted it down, watered it, squished it down, loosened up the grass so you couldn't even tell it had ever been done now. And we had a brand new waterline done. And when you're done, you could not, until you could walk around, you couldn't tell it was done. It was perfect. And then we got in the truck and started to drive off. And I asked, you know, Jesse, his name was. I said, ‘That was neat.' You know, I'm a young kid. And I said, ‘Call me J for John.' He said, ‘J, I have the greatest job on this planet, the greatest job a man could ever, ever, ever ask for.' And I said, ‘What do you mean?' I thought he's a ditch digger. He said, ‘Without water, people die. I bring life to people. My job is the most important job. They can't bathe. They can't drink. They can't make food. They can't do anything without my water pipe. I had the most important job on this planet. And I bring water to people. Without water people die.' And I thought, ‘Whoa.' And I came back and he said to me, ‘My job is to do such an amazing job that they call the office and complain that we never came.'  Lisa: Because they can't see where he's been!  Dr John: It's so immaculate. They don't believe that somebody came and they'll call and cuss out your dad. “Why is it not, why did you not do the main?” And your dad knows. Tell them, “If you don't mind just walk out. They will see that the main is there.”' They're unbelievably astonished that there was no mess and it's perfect. And he didn't tell us about Jesse, and the respect he does when he does water main. He knew that if I would go out there and learn from him, here's a man that does what he loves. Yeah, and he's the ditch digger. And in those days, you didn't make a little bit, you didn't make a lot of money. Lisa: And I love that. And it just reminds me of my dad. He was always cleaning up at the garden. He was a firefighter professionally, but he would be, every spare moment, gardening somebody's garden, cleaning up, landscaping, doing it. And he worked on films as a landscape artist and so on. He was always the one that was cleaning everything up, everything was immaculate by the end of the day. Whereas every, all the other workers were just, ‘Down tools. It's five o'clock, we're off,' sort of thing. Drop it and run. Everything was always a mess.  My dad, he always had everything perfectly done. And was, always came home satisfied because he'd spent, when he wasn't at the fire brigade, he spends his day with his hands in the dirt, out on the sun, physically working in nature, and loving it and doing a proper job of it. So yeah, it just reminded me because he taught us all those things as we were growing up too. And would take us and teach us how to paint and teach us how to, all of these things.  Dr John: The more something is high on your value that you're doing, your identity revolves around your highest value. Whatever is highest on your value, your identity revolves around. As a result of it, the pride in workmanship goes up to the degree that it's congruent with what you value most. Because you're inspired and love doing it. And it's, your identity goes around it. So my identity would rather revolve around teaching. So I'm inspired to do teaching. I can't wait to do it.  Whatever high an individual's values is what they're going to excel at most. And they are wanting to do it not because they have to, but because they love to. People do something they love to, completely do a different job than people that have to. They're creative, innovative. They go out of their way. They don't care if they have to work extra time. They don't care about those things because they're doing what they love. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. I love it. You have some fabulous stories to illustrate the point. So whatever you're doing people, do it properly, and do it with passion, and try to get to where you want to. You might, this just takes time to get to where you want to go. You come out of school, you're not going to end up being near the top of your game. But you have to start somewhere and head towards what your passion is. I wanted to figure— Dr John: If you start out right at the very beginning, master planning, you can get there pretty quick. In 18 months, I went from doing everything, to do the two or three things that I did most effectively. I delegated the rest away. But my income went up tenfold.  Lisa: Wow. Yeah. Because you were actually doing the things that mattered the most. Dr John: Me going out and speaking and me doing the clinical work was the two things that I was, because that's the thing I went to school for. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to do the administrative or I didn't want to do all that other stuff. Hire people to do that. That freed me up. Lisa: Yeah, it's a fantastic message. Now, I wanted to flip directions on you if I could, and I've been doing a lot of study around flow states and optimising. How do we build into ourselves this ability to be operating at our best, which we've been talking a little bit about? What neurotransmitters are at play when we're in a flow state? How do we maintain this over time to remain inspired and not be worn down?  We think about flow state or I don't know how to put this into words, people. By that I mean, it's that state where you're just on fire, where everything's happening really well, you're at your genius place, your talents are being expressed properly, and you're just in it. I would get that when I'm running, or when I was making jewellery and I would, time would disappear, and I'd be just in this otherworldly place, almost sometimes. How do we tap into that? Because that is where we as human beings can be our optimal, be our best. Have you got any ideas around that as far as the neurotransmitters and the neuroscience of flow states? Dr John: Yes. It boils down to the very same thing I was saying a moment ago: not doing low priority things. There's two flow states though, and they get confused. Maybe people have confused a manic elated, utopic, euphoric high, which is a fantasy of all positives, no negatives in the brain that makes you manic. That flow state is a hypocriticality, amygdala-driven, dopamine-driven fantasy high that won't last.  Then there's a real flow state. When you're doing something that's truly inspiring and deeply meaningful, you get tears in your eyes getting to do it. You're not having a hypocriticality, you're having a supercriticality, where the very frontal cortex is actually activated, not the lateral but the medial one, and you're now present. It's the gratitude centre; it's grace. There you're in the flow because you're doing something you really love to do that you feel is your identity. That's where time stops.  Some people confuse a manic episode with that state. But a manic episode crashes. But the real flow state is inspired. That's when you're able to do what you love doing consistently. When Warren Buffett is doing, reading business statements, and financial statements, and deciding what companies to buy, this is what he loves doing. For me, I'm studying human behaviour and anything to do with the brain, and mind, and potential, and awareness. I'm that way. I can lose track of all time and just be doing it for hours. It's not a manic state. That's an inspired state. An inspired state is an intrinsically driven state where you're willing to embrace pain and pleasure in the pursuit of it.  You love tackling challenges and solving problems, and you'll just research and research or do whatever you're doing, and you just keep doing it because you won't stop. That's not a manic episode. Although manics can look similar, there's a difference. Though a manic state comes from the dopamine, you got a high dopamine, usually high serotonin, you got encapsulants, endorphins. But you also don't have, you're not perceiving the downsides. You're just seeing all upsides. You are blinded by little fantasy about what's going to happen. And that eventually catches you, because that it's not obtainable. Fantasies are not obtainable, objectives are.  Eventually, the other side comes in, and osteocalcins comes in and norepinephrine, epinephrine, cortisol, the stress responses. Because all of, all of a sudden your fantasy's not being met. But when you think you're going after the fantasy, just think of it this way: when you're infatuated with somebody, you're enamoured. You're in this euphoria. All you see is the upside, and you're blind to the downside. Actually, at this time, you say, ‘I'm in love.' No, you're infatuated. And then when weeks go by, and months go by, you start to find out, ‘Oh, I was fooled. That person I thought was there is not who I thought.' And you find out about this person. And that's short-lived. Yeah.  When you actually know that human beings can have both sides, and you don't have a fantasy of one side, but you embrace both sides, and know that they're a human being with a set of values. If you can communicate and articulate what you want in terms of those values, you now have a fulfilling relationship. It's a long term relationship. It's not volatile. It's not manic depressive. It's just steady. That's the one that's the flow. That's what allows the relationship to grow. The manic thing is transient. The real flow is eternal. Lisa: So it's the difference between being in love, and infatuated, and being in actual true real long-term love. Dr John: Well, infatuation, people confuse with love. If I have an expectation on you to be nice, never mean; kind, never cruel; positive, never negative; peaceful, never wrathful, giving, never taking; generous, never stingy; considerate, never inconsiderate. If I have a fantasy about who you are and I'm high because I think I've found this person, that's ‘Oh, well, it's all one-sided.' It's not sustainable. No one's gonna live that way. But if I have an expectation, if they're a human being with a set of values, I can rely on them to do what's highest on their value, and nothing more. I respect their value, I see how it's serving my value, and I can appreciate what they're committed to, and don't have any expectation except them to do what they do. They won't let me down. And I'll be grateful for them. Lisa: Why didn't you tell her that when I was a 20-year-old finding the wrong people in my life? Relationship-wise, are you going after the wrong types of people? Dr John: If you go after it a little infatuation, you have to pay with a broken crush. You never have a broken heart; you have a broken fantasy. Eventually, it helps you actually learn to go after what's in your heart. Lisa: And value what is really important. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice to have had never met a lot sooner? Dr John: There's no mistake, so much happened, because you wouldn't be doing this project. Lisa: No. Then this is what every piece of crap that's ever come your way in life has got an upside and a downside. Because I hear in one of your lectures talking about this: don't get ever overexcited, and don't get really depressed. It's always in the middle. You put it so eloquently, it was, whenever something good happens to you, don't get too overly excited about it. And whenever something bad happens to you, don't get overly depressed about it. Because there's something in the middle of there. You're not seeing the downsides of that good thing, and you're not seeing the upsides.  I've actually integrated that now into my life. When something good, I used to have this thing, ‘Oh my god, I have this breakthrough. I've had this breakthrough.' And ‘This happened to me.' And then I'll go and talk about it. And, because I'm a very open person and I found actually that's not good in a couple of ways. Because I'm overexcited about it. I've ticked it off in my brain almost as being happened. Dr John: If you're overexcited, you're blind to the downside. Lisa: Yeah. And you think it's already happened. Say you meet someone, new possible job, or it's a possible contract, or something like that. And you got all excited about it. Because you've got you've initiated the process, but in your brain, you've already ticked that box and got the job and you're off.  Dr John: Then you undermine it. And you said it's related about a job opportunity. You usually have it taken away from you. You're mostly unready for it. If you're really ready for the job opportunity, you're going to know what it's going to take workwise to be able to get paid. You'll already get the downside and your objective. And know, ‘Oh, that's gonna be 28 hours of work here.'  Lisa: That's not cynical, that's not cynicism. That's actually not realism.  Dr John: It's grounded objectives. People who keep grounded objectives don't have job opportunities taken away from them. But people who get elated about it, brag about it, talk about it, almost inevitably disappears. Lisa: Wow. Okay. And so you got to be looking at, I've elated— a couple of opportunities come up that are possibly I'm thinking about doing. I'm like, ‘That one's gonna take so much work in this direction. That means going to be the sacrifice for you.' And the old me would have just gone, ‘Yeah. Let's do it, jump in. And I'm like, ‘Am I just getting old or is this actually a better way to be?' Dr John: My dad taught me something as a plumbing industry. He'd have to, they'd say, ‘Okay, we're going to build this house. Here's all the plumbing that's going to be involved in it.' They'd see the plans. He'd have to do an estimate. What would it cost to produce all that, put that together? If he got elated and he didn't do his cost, by the time he finishes, he didn't make any profit. But if he does his due diligence and knows all the responsibilities, what happens if it rains? What happens if there's delays? What happens if the permits are delayed? He puts all the variables in there and checks it all off. He then goes in to the customer and says, ‘This is what it's going to cost.'  He said, sometimes the customer would come to him and say, ‘Well, yeah. But this other one came in at $10,000 cheaper.' My dad would sit there and he would say to him, he said, ‘I want to show you something. I guarantee you, the man that comes in at $10,000 cheaper, is not going to be thinking of all the variables. You're going to end up not having the job that we're going to do. Let me make sure you understand this. You may not hire me, and that's okay. But I want to make sure you're informed you make a wise decision. Because if you don't, you're going to go pay that side to save $10,000, it's going to cost you an extra 10.'  Lisa: Yep. Been there, done that. Dr John: Well, my dad used to go through it, and with a fine-tooth comb, he explained all the different variables. He says, ‘Now, what I want you to do is go back to the person that's giving you those things and ask them all those questions. If they didn't think about it, they're going to either not make money off you and they're not going to want to continue to do the work. Or they're not going to do a great job because they're losing money. Or you're going to end up getting a thing done, then they're never going to want to do follow up and take care of you again as a customer. So here's what it costs. I've been doing this a long time. I know what it costs. I know what the property is. So I'd rather you know the facts, and be a little bit more and make sure it's done properly. Then go and save a few bucks and find out the hard way.' Here's the questions they go check. They came back to my dad.  Lisa: Yep. When they understood that whole thing. And I think this is a good thing in every piece of, every part of life. It's not always the cheapest offering that's the best offering, which you learn the hard way. Dr John: I had somebody come to me not too long ago, maybe four months ago, earlier this year. And said, ‘I go to so and so's seminar for almost half the price of your seminar. Why would I go to your seminar?' And I said, ‘That's like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Volkswagen.' I said, ‘So let me explain what you're going to get here. Let me explain what you're going to get here. Then you can make a decision. If you want that Volkswagen outcome, that's fantastic. If you want a Rolls Royce, I'm on the Rolls Royce. I'm going to give you something about here.' And once you explain it, and make the distinctions, people will pay the difference.  Lisa: Yeah. And that's– in a business, you have to be able to explain to them as well. When I was a jeweller, when I started, I was a goldsmith in a previous life. And we used to make everything by hand and it was all custom jewellery, etcetera, back before China and the mass production and huge factories and economies of scale really blew the industry to pieces. For a long time you were actually in that hanging on to one of those and not transitioning into the mass production side of it because I didn't want to, but not being able to represent the value that actually what you were producing: the customisation, the personalisation, the handmade, and people wouldn't understand that.  You end up chopping your own prices down and down and down to the point where it no longer became a viable business. And that was the state of the industry and so on and so forth. But people could not see the difference between this silver ring and that silver ring. That one's a customised, handmade, personalised piece that took X amount of hours to produce. And this is something they got spit out of a production line at a team and other people are wearing. But people can't see the value difference. Dr John: Yeah, you have to, you're responsible for bringing it to their awareness. If you've been to a sushi restaurant, they have this egg that's in layers. I noticed that to get some nigiri with an egg on it with a little seaweed wrapped around it, it was like $4 per piece. And the other sushi was like $2 at the time. I thought, just an egg. Why would it be that much? And then I thought, and then I watched him prepare one, and how many hours it took to prepare one of those slabs of egg because he had to do it in layers. We had to loony take a pan, take an egg, poured in the egg, cook it just a certain level. And then lay that, scramble it, laid on top layer to time while it's hot, and layer by layer by layer by layer and cut it and everything else to make that thing. And I realised that is an individual egg-layered piece of egg. And I realised after seeing him I go, ‘That's a $10 egg.'  Lisa: This is cheap.  Dr John: I was thinking, ‘How the heck does he do that for four bucks? How did he make any profit out of it?' I never questioned it after th

About the Tantraloka Abhinavagupta says the following: "This Tantrāloka is the manifestation of the three and a half streams of divine nectar which encompass the essence of all spiritual wisdom. With its broad sweep, it embodies in its exposition the quintessence of the Trika school of thought.  (Tantrāloka 36.15) In this excerpt from the Light on the Tantra of Kashmir Shaivism, Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka, Volume One Swami Lakshmanjoo explains the real cause of liberation. https://www.lakshmanjooacademy.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/TL1_liberation-knowledge.mp3 Audio 9 - 05:30 क्रिया हि नाम विज्ञानान्नान्यद्वस्तु क्रमात्मताम् । उपायवशतः प्राप्तं तत्क्रियेति पुरोदितम् ॥२३१॥ kriyā hi nāma vijñānānnānyadvastu kramātmatām / upāyavaśataḥ prāptaṁ tatkriyeti puroditam //231// This kriyopāya,617 which is called āṇavopāya, which is one with āṇavopāya, is not other than vijñānopāya.618 This upāya, this means, is also residing in the field of knowledge; this means of action is also residing in the field of knowledge. This is also one with vijñāna (nānyat vastu). Kramātmatam upāyavaśataḥ prāptaṁ, knowledge residing in the field of succession is called jñāna śakti. Knowledge residing above the field of succession is called icchā śakti. Knowledge residing below the field of succession is called kriyā śakti. Knowledge is the thing. Knowledge is upwards and downwards. Knowledge residing above the field of succession, . . . JOHN: That’s in icchā śakti. SWAMIJI: . . . that is icchā śakti. JOHN: Then knowledge residing in succession . . . SWAMIJI: In succession is jñāna śakti. Knowledge residing below succession [is kriyā śakti]. JOHN: But what is “below succession”? What does it mean, “below succession”? SWAMIJI: When there is no touch of knowledge in action. JOHN: When it is just action. SWAMIJI: When it is just action–pūjā, worship, [when there is] no awareness. SCHOLAR: Yogāntatām. SWAMIJI: Yogāntatām, prāptaṁ tatkriyeti puroditam,619 that is kriyā śakti. DEVOTEE: (inaudible) pāyavaśataḥ prāptaṁ tat kriya. SWAMIJI: That is kriyā. So, in fact, kriyā, jñāna, and icchā are one. SCHOLAR: Triśūla. SWAMIJI: Audio 9 - 07:22 सम्यग्ज्ञानं च मुक्त्येककारणं स्वपरस्थितम् । यतो हि कल्पनामात्रं स्वपरादिविभूतयः ॥२३२॥ samyagjñānaṁ ca muktyekakāraṇaṁ svaparasthitam / yato hi kalpanāmātraṁ svaparādivibhūtayaḥ //232// The cause of liberation, the cause of getting liberation, is not the master, is not the effort of the disciple, is not the effort of the master. The real cause of liberation is just where there is knowledge. Where there is knowledge, the appearance of knowledge, [that] is the cause of liberation. Svaparasthitam, it may reside in the master, it may be residing in the disciple, we don’t stress on that, we stress on knowledge. That perfect knowledge of Self is the cause of liberation. It may be residing in the master or it may be residing in the disciple. Yato hi kalpanāmātraṁ svaparādi vibhūtayaḥ, “This is the master,” “This is the disciple,” what does that [matter]? There is no difference! You may perceive that supreme knowledge in your master, [then] you are liberated! It doesn’t matter if [supreme knowledge] is not residing in you! Wherever it is residing, you are liberated. It may reside in the master, it may reside in you (in the disciple). Because, yato hi kalpanāmātraṁ svaparādo vibhūtayaḥ, “This is the master,” “This is the disciple,” this is all the ignorant way of understanding, the incorrect way of understanding. The correct way of understanding is, wherever there is knowledge, that is liberation. It may be residing in Lord Śiva, it may be residing in you. If you once perceive that it is residing in Lord Śiva, you are liberated. You may not perceive that it is residing in me.620 So there is faith: if you believe that your master is filled with the glory of awareness, [then] you are filled with the glory of awareness...

In 2008, the economy had tanked and John McDonald was left at a crossroads. Rather than withdraw into comfort, he took the opportunity to do something a bit crazy. John was a woodworker who spent time at trade shows, and someone once suggested that he make cabinet doors that fit with IKEA cabinets. With nothing to lose, John launched Semihandmade to do just that. Now, a decade later, Semihandmade has seen consistent double-digit growth year over year and has been featured in countless blogs, interior design social posts, on the feeds of influencers worldwide, and in the homes of tens of thousands of people. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, John tells the story from start to finish, including how he built a successful ecommerce custom cabinet model on the backs of the IKEA brand, and how he’s now launching into the DTC space with the first US-made custom cabinet DTC offering, BOXI. From finding the right partners, to building an omnichannel approach that doesn’t handcuff your resources, to challenging yourself to strive for more, you’ll learn something from John and his story that just might help you level up your ecommerce business, too.  Main Takeaways:Perfect Partners: For ecommerce brands taking on an omnichannel approach, there is no reason to tie up a lot of your resources into retail spaces and showrooms. Instead, exploring partnership opportunities with other brands in a similar category might be a mutually beneficial way to expand your brand, the brand you partner with, and offer an in-store experience to customers who seek one.Meeting the Moment: The world of home furnishings and interior design is changing rapidly, especially as A.I. and VR technology enter the marketplace. With that tech, users are gaining more flexibility to design their own spaces without leaving home, which means there is an opening for DTC companies that are tech-first. Step Up or Step Out: You can’t let competition scare you, let it inspire you to raise your game. By surrounding yourself with the best and forcing yourself to compete against them, you have to level up to simply survive, and succeed expectations to grow your business in a meaningful way.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, Cofounder at Mission.org. Today, I had the pleasure of chatting with John McDonald, the Founder and CEO at Semihandmade and also Boxi. John, welcome.John:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you on. Before we get started, I was hoping you could give me a little background, and for anyone who doesn't know what Semihandmade is and also Boxi, how did you start it? What is it? How do I think about it?John:Sure. Semihandmade is a company that's been around, I guess, just over 10 years now. We're based in Southern California. We make doors that fit IKEA cabinets. What that means is, if you want to buy a kitchen, bathroom, closet media system, IKEA, for the most part, gives you the amazing flexibility of not buying their doors. For a kitchen, you'd buy the cabinets, you'd buy the interior components. Then we have over 40 different options from entry level doors to some really high-end, one-of-a-kind offerings.Stephanie:I love that. Do I think of it like white labeling? You take IKEA's [inaudible] and then you can add like rose gold fixtures on it, yeah?John:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The credit, obviously, goes back to IKEA. This is an ever expanding ecosystem that's been around probably for 15 years now. People that make amazing slipcovers that you can put on their sofas. People that make furniture legs, companies like us that make fantastic cabinet doors. It's a way to get a really high-end look for a really mid-level price.Stephanie:Cool.John:I'm even fortunate to grow quite a bit with that.Stephanie:That's great. How did you come to this idea?John:I'm always honest and clear that this was ... It's a spectacular idea that somebody gave to me.Stephanie:Who gave it to you?John:I think his name is David Stewart. I think he's a photographer. Look, I'm 53. I don't know if I'm older than a lot of the people you talk to.Stephanie:A little.John:I came to things a little bit later. I had moved to California from the East Coast when I was 21. Well, wanted to get rich and famous, work in the film business, didn't really have any kind of plan, bounced around with that, was writing, not making any money like everybody else I knew waiting tables. Then I woke up in my early 30s and said, I got to do something with my life. It was post 9/11, which is a wake-up call for a lot of people. I tried a bunch of different things. Then I somehow landed in woodworking and furniture making at first and cabinetry. I got good at it.John:Through the late '90s and early 2000s, that's what I was doing, Southern California based custom furniture and cabinetry company called Handmade. I worked hard. I approached it like a business into my late 30s, which was different than a lot of other people I knew, the craftspeople, spectacular artists, but just no head for business, no interest in business. I always looked at it like as a business like any other. That's what I was doing through, again, the early 2000s. I was networking and blogs just started to happen. I was doing a lot of woodworking shows but also design shows. At one of those design shows in 2008, I think somebody came up to me, this guy randomly and said, "Have you ever thought about making doors for IKEA cabinets?"Stephanie:Was that something that others were doing? Why did he have that idea? Then was like, I'm going to tell John to do that.John:It's interesting. Again, I always want to give credit where credit is due. On top of him, there was a company called Scherr's based in North Dakota that has been making doors for IKEA cabinets just a little bit prior to that. People are always making their own doors as well. It is because IKEA lets you not buy doors when you buy their kitchens. I don't know why he mentioned it. I think part of it was because when I did those shows, it was a show called Whelan Design, which is a great show in Southern California at the time and back when Dwell magazine was really in its heyday and just an iconic brand.John:I was always like the one off independent company. It was me and all the big brands. It would be like Kohler and Caesarstone and Sub-Zero. I was there alongside them with my little custom furniture setup. I don't know if he took a liking to me, but we just spent that day, the Friday and then the following day just talking about it. I had no idea what he was talking about at first.Stephanie:That's awesome. Then for people listening, I know when I first heard of your brand and was looking through it. I'm like, oh, it's just like a small thing, a big thing. Then I was looking through some of the stats and you've been named like the fastest growing private company every year by Inc. magazine [inaudible].John:Well, yeah, one of. Yeah, one of many. Inc. 500 originally, we've been on that list, I think, six or seven years now.Stephanie:You've had double digit growth for almost a decade, year every year.John:Yeah. It's exciting. It's, again, one of many things. I try to be candid and clear, but I never expected this. I never thought in a million years I'd be doing this. Every year that we were fortunate to grow, even my ambition or dreams, it got bigger. It's like get to a million, get to two million, get to five million. It's been exciting. Believe me, I don't take it for granted. That's why I enjoy doing things like this, because I always ... At 40, I was newly divorced. I didn't have any kids at the time. I have a son now. He was nine. I lived in my shop for a year, because I got divorced.John:I didn't have anywhere to live. I had options, but I wanted to hide. I lived in my woodworking shop. I lived on my sofa with my dog. I just said, I got to do something else. It was a huge wakeup call. Then that's when the conversation I had, I think, six to nine months prior. It was like, maybe I should try this. Again, in terms of the second acts in life, whatever, I was 40 and had no clue. 10 years later, more than 10 years later, it's different.Stephanie:Yeah, that's very inspirational. Cool to hear about and cool to see where you can start and where it can grow to. How did you grow the company? From starting out where you're woodworking, you're building stuff, and then you're like, okay, I'm going to buy IKEA stuff and make it better. How did you get in front of people and be found in general?John:Like anything, Stephanie, it's like you look back on it and as much as it was, a long journey at times were so challenging, whatever. You get through it, and you gloss over it. It's only when conversations like this that I do get an opportunity to look back. The reality was, again, I had a nice custom furniture cabinetry business. I had some really good clients. I work with some good architects and designers. Then in 2008, the market tanked. Everybody went in the dumpster. I had to do something else. Things had slowed down.John:I started saying to a couple designers and architects, "What if we try to do integrate some IKEA cabinetry into the custom project." Because at the end of the day, a box is a box, and you're just going to see the outside of the beautiful panels and the doors. There were a few people that took a chance on that. That's how it ... It's like anything. I was 100% custom in 2009. Then it's like, okay, you can start mixing it in and starting to organically ... I don't even know what kind of ... I wasn't doing advertising. Blogs had just taken off.John:Apartment therapy had seen see me at a design show and written about me, which was amazing. That was a really big deal. L.A. Times did a story on me, which is incredible. Yet it was always organic. Through 2010 and 2011, it became, okay, now we're doing half custom, half IKEA. Then every year, it's a little bit more headed towards full IKEA. The truth is, I don't know when it was, maybe 2013, when it was fully just making doors for IKEA. It was fun. It was always a steady progression, always growing every year.Stephanie:Yeah, sustainably growing, which is a lot different than a lot of the brand.John:Yeah, profitable every year. Beginning, doubling every year, which, again, was not what I expected. Part of that, what's funny too is I have a lot of incredibly supportive family, but also friends, guys that I grew up with. When I was in California at 21, or 22, or 29, or whatever, they were amazing. They love me. They were supportive, but they probably had no clue where I was headed. I didn't either. Now, it's fun. I gave them a hard time constantly about the fact that they probably gave up on me.John:Not in a bad way, but it's just ... I mean, I do think that there is a time to cash in your chips. It's great to have dreams. There was an interesting like Scott Galloway kind of thing recently about if you should follow your dream. His overly simplistic thing is definitely do not follow your dream. Because unless you're willing to pay your bills to start because following just exclusively your dream can be incredibly impractical. The people that you admire, suddenly, the people that I admire weren't these head up in the clouds kind of people. They worked really hard. I geek out on founder stories, things, podcasts like this. I'm fascinated by that. It's never an overnight thing, or at least it's rarely. Again, I'm 53 now. This is all house money.Stephanie:Wow, that's awesome. When you started, getting more money, you're doubling growth, more revenue, obviously. Where did you invest? How did you think about investing that? Because I'm sure you're like, woo-hoo! I'm going to go have fun now.John:No.Stephanie:No?John:It was never like that, no. It's interesting. I would say I like nice things like some people do. I'm pretty frugal. In terms of the business, everything lives inside the business. I had a partner at that point. Up until three years ago, we made everything in-house. I was the original guy making the doors and packing them up and then shipping them in New York or different places. Then my partner at the time, Ivan, came on board. He was the guy cutting the doors. Now, we were fortunate to grow.John:Eventually, we had close to 35, I think 35 or 40 people that were working in production. Up until three years ago, we topped out at 75 people and half of them were making products. Now I'm proud to say we don't make anything in-house. Everything, it's made around the US, some at the top manufacturers in the country. That was a huge shift. To answer your question, everything is in the business. That's why you see revenue numbers are different than other things.Stephanie:Yeah. What were some mistakes maybe that you remember where you're like, ooh, I would have avoided this if I were to do it again, or especially in the more maybe the past five years or something. Not early on when you're just ...John:Right. If we're going to say 10 years ago, the mistakes that I made were unavoidable in the sense that I was creating this out of thin air. Ivan and I were just making stuff up as we went along. We were two guys. He's a little bit younger than me. He came out from Boston. I came out from Philadelphia to be writers. In some ways, no business starting this kind of business. In the last five years, it's probably the mistakes that I've made are ... I don't know, maybe waiting too long to really build up the team, which is not to say that we didn't have good people, we did.John:Part of my job now is just looking at the next 12 months and 18 months and say, hopefully, where are we going to be? Where do we think we're going to be? What are we going to need then? As someone who is ... Again, I think pretty honest about their limitations or whatever, we only thrive with people that are smarter, better, or more experienced than me. That's one of the biggest changes in the last at least six months, where we really just hit the gas and brought in some really amazing complementary pieces.Stephanie:Yeah, cool. How do you think about building on top of another company? What if IKEA changes their cabinet line or does something different, did that ever worry you, building a business that's ... I mean, a lot of businesses are built on another businesses, obviously. How did you think about that?John:We've always been after market. With IKEA, it's pretty well documented. We've gone up and down with them. I think in most ways, they appreciate what we do. Certainly, it's undeniable that we sell kitchens that people wouldn't normally buy if we weren't available. They also, I think, hate a little bit that we're there. I don't know this is arrogant or anything to say. They're not going to change their model because of us. They're never going to not sell doors. Even if they did, I would say to people like, "Then just buy the doors that literally cost $2."John:Then we'll pay for them and recycle. Their model is that a la carte wide range of pricing. We've always been respectful. Again, I have immense respect for them and what they built. It's extraordinary. Even when my fiancé and I moved into a new house and it's like going there, buying the basics for the house, it's just nobody can beat it [inaudible].Stephanie:Yup. I'm doing that now as well. I think, like you said, you're opening up a market that they probably wouldn't have access, otherwise. When I'm about finishing this house now, I honestly would not have thought to go to IKEA to get cabinets. I don't know. Then when I saw you guys, I'm like, oh, well then you can have the finishings and the colors and the things that I actually want. I don't actually care what a cabinet is like inside or behind the scenes, but I care about how it looks. A lot of the IKEA stuff does look like you know sometimes.John:Yeah, it's understandable. Because at that scale, you can't get that fancy and creative. This is the part where I drop names, just in the sense that what I do love is we work with some really cool people that do make IKEA more accessible. It is people like Karlie Kloss and Coco Rocha and all kinds of celebrities and high end designers and influencers. They, more so than us, have normalized IKEA. That's good for everybody. If design is supposed to be democratic and accessible to everybody, there's nothing more accessible than IKEA. Obviously, Amazon, Wayfair, and things like that.Stephanie:Walmart? Walmart is coming back. I have bought rugs now, a little egg wicker chair. It's from following influencers. I'm like, Walmart is coming back.John:You're right. It's funny, because the same thing with my fiancé, Stephanie. Yesterday, she was looking at different coffee tables. She said, "This is ... " She showed me a thing. I was like, "That's awesome." She said, "Oh, it's like the Kelly Clarkson line." I was like, "This is great." It's true. Look, certainly, you can make the argument that some of that stuff is more disposable and it's going to go into a landfill and less sustainable. I understand that. The reality is, not everyone has the same access to disposable. If you can get cool stuff, it's reasonably priced and it lasts for a few years. I don't know. It's hard to turn that down.Stephanie:You mentioned that you partner with influencers and celebrities. How does that relationship work?John:Yeah. I think that's always been a huge differentiator for us, one of several things. From the start, I always felt no self-consciousness about reaching out to people. Whether it was blogs, I would say, "This is what we're doing. Here are some photos. I'd love for you to write about us." Or even influencers. The biggest one and the one that we worked with the most is Sarah Sherman Samuel. We've had a door line with Sarah for three years. That's a situation where, god, I think 2014 or 2015, she reached out and said, "Hey, I bought a bungalow in Venice. I love IKEA cabinets.John:I wonder if we could partner on some doors." We did a small collaboration, gave her a tiny discount. She painted the doors. She styled everything. She took photography. The kitchen went completely viral. It's one of those kitchens that is everywhere. I think a really cool Farrow & Ball paints, brass and mixture of this light green and white. That just opened the door to all these other relationships. People saw that and started reaching out to us. It's been an amazing thing. The truth is, we've gotten to a point where we've had to pull back on that because it's just a different way to market the brand. It can be expensive. It's definitely grown us, there's no doubt about it.Stephanie:Have you thought about Netflix series? I'm just thinking, wow, they should be on a home remodel type of show. How perfect is that? People always trying to do amazing things on a budget on like the HGTV [inaudible].John:Yeah. We've talked about that stuff in the past. I like that stuff. Again, I don't know. I do think it's interesting our growth. That's how I always look at things, behind the scenes of how businesses grow, especially within that. I do like someone we haven't worked with in a while, the Studio McGee, the Netflix series, which is great. That's really interesting, especially after listening to another podcast like our friends at Business of Home, where ... I left the podcast with so much more respect.John:Because my interaction with them was a long time ago, and then I just see the photos and the beautiful stuff. Just the growth that they've had and the behind the scenes, and again, hearing their story is really extraordinary. I enjoy watching that stuff. I don't know if I want to watch this. I get sick of hearing myself talk. Maybe if it's everybody else, that might work.Stephanie:Yeah. I was just thinking like, wow, that'd be a really good partnership strategy. I always bring up the Container Store partnership that they had on the Netflix series and just how much Container Store sales went up after that series.John:[inaudible]Stephanie:I can see why, same thing with cabinets and stuff.John:Yeah, it's interesting. Because even that, again, I'm a lot older than you, but in the early '90s, whenever Trading Spaces came on and that was huge like ...Stephanie:I watch Trading Spaces, just to be clear.John:I mean, even in the '80s, the godfather of that is like Bob Vila in this old house. That's definitely before your time. That was restoring amazing New England homes and stuff. It was master carpenter, Norm. I think Norm Abram is absolute craftsman. That was the start. Then you had Trading Spaces. Even now, you would have thought, after 10 years, that goes away, and it hasn't. That's the thing. Is it the ladies like Home Edit and stuff like that? I don't know. It hasn't evaded, it just only grown. Obviously, Chip and Joanna Gaines and the dynasty that they have built. It doesn't show any sign of stopping.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like the world is now just moving to a more curated collections like I'm going to look for someone who knows my style, so I don't have to waste time looking at everything. Whereas before, it's like, oh, I'm going to go to Target to get this, and then I'm going to go to Dollar Tree to get this. I make it up. I think, 10 years ago is very much about DIY, but all over the place. Now, it's like, okay, I'm going to follow Chip and Joanna Gaines, their line at Target, whatever that is, and follow the people that I know are my style and be ready to immerge myself in that brand.John:Yeah. The interesting, whether it's the 180 to that is the amount of growth that Restoration Hardware has had, where it's just almost like meteoric, being a complete luxury brand and selling the whole experience. It is like the Ralph Lauren of today, and now as they move towards hospitality restaurants and sounds like hotels. Part of your brain thinks, man, you can't sustain that. How do you keep growing? There is a market for that. Even when you watch the Studio McGee, their services are not expensive. Amber Interiors, who we work with, people like that, incredibly talented, at the really high end of the market. They keep growing.Stephanie:Yup. Tell me a bit about your omnichannel approach. I saw that you had showrooms around the country. Then you're, obviously, online as well. Now you're moving into DTC. How do you think about keeping a cohesive story of your brand but also expanding and reaching a lot of people on different channels?John:I guess the biggest challenge, if it is the biggest, it's just the fact that what we're selling comes at a higher price point than the average online purchase. We sell certainly, if you're doing a GODMORGON bathroom vanity, that then may cost $150, $300, $400. We're selling cabinet doors and panels and complementary trim and things like that that can cost $3,000, $5,000, $20,000. Again, it's not buying a pair of Warby's or an Olay bag for a couple hundred bucks. There's a lot to it, a lot of back and forth. Excuse me.John:Showrooms we're always a part of we've got to show people our product, especially when we're asking them to spend that much. The benefit of IKEA is, even though they're still a privately held company, there are only, I think, less than 60 around the US. What I could say to people to say to you, Stephanie, or wherever, like you're in New York, go to one of the five local IKEAs. Then come into our mini ... I never want to call it a showroom, because it could be 200 square feet. It's got some cabinetry in it. It's got door samples, things like that. There would be a whole experience.John:I would always say, if you want to see a kitchen, go to IKEA and you can see 15 kitchens or see 20 kitchens. Want to see the doors? Come see us. We've had that in New York, in Brooklyn, in Chicago, obviously, in LA, Minneapolis, a bunch of different places. Again, trying to be reasonable about that. I don't want the overhead of signing leases if I don't have to. What we've typically done and we will continue to do even more so is partner with other great brands. It is like a multi-brand approach.John:With our lighting friends, with hardware companies like Rejuvenation, Fireclay Tile, upcoming collaboration with Caesarstone, it's partnering with Cambria in the past. It's just saying, let's do this collectively. Because the kitchen is, as someone said to me, "The base purchase, if you're fortunate to have him as a house, there's a car, and then maybe there's your kitchen." We're trying to grow the company that way. We started what I think is an amazing ... I got to [inaudible] blog anymore. It's that. [inaudible] stories that launched last summer.John:That was the idea that I wanted to bring together all these great writers, great content to help promote the brand, of course, but also expand us, again, to make that cliché to becoming a lifestyle brand. On the one hand, it would be enough to have a really successful cabinet door company. I just think we have the opportunity to do so much more. That's what something else we can talk about, is this brand Boxi, which is going to launch at the beginning of March. That really is direct to consumer. That's our own product, no IKEA. That's a whole different thing for us.Stephanie:Alright. Let's move there next after my one thought. I've many ideas when talking to you now.John:Awesome.Stephanie:What about having like partnering with IKEA on their AR app or developing your own AR app, instead of having to have a showroom, being going to IKEA, pull up your phone, and then you can swipe through the designs of ours, and you can see exactly what that trim would look like, what that doorknob or whatever, so then you eliminate showroom.John:It is interesting. Look, the thing with IKEA, they have partnered with people in the past. Obviously, places like Target have done an amazing job of that completely. As you said, Walmart too.. It always seem like the natural fit with us. If you were going to do it with anybody, it would be us. In terms of AI, yeah. IKEA has been slow and is put a huge push in the last couple years of their online presence and their economy. They have an app they launched last month. What we are doing with the new brand is working with a 3D AI company called Skip. It's going to launch in the next few months. That lets you basically not go in showrooms.John:There are ways to order this new line of cabinets, and one of them is to make an appointment and someone comes to your house and 3D scans your room. Then you design remotely. With 80 hours of AI and machine learning and everything else, it's compressing that and then presenting you with design options.Stephanie:That's cool.John:That's where we're headed. All has changed dramatically in the last year. COVID or not, it was headed towards that. The new iPhones have the camera technology where you can almost do that. Maybe in 12 to 15 months, you don't even need a guy to come to your house. You can do it with your iPhone. They're already pretty close.Stephanie:Yeah, I think it's fair. I have a little tape measure app on my phone and it says, okay, scan the whole room. You do that and then you can measure everything. The placeholders all around the room for you and [inaudible].John:Yeah, it's fascinating. Even brands like Primer that launched last year, which do the work with other brand partners, and you want to click on like the Hygge and West Wallpaper, you can hold it up to your wall. They'll show you different swatches and things like that. It's interesting. For us, yeah, that is part of what we think is a differentiator. IKEA is always going to have massive brick and mortar. Even though they move in some cities towards smaller footprints, it's still footprints that are 20,000 to 150,000, as opposed to 300,000. There's another cabinet line that's launching.John:It just launched, it's got a 30,000 square foot showroom on the East Coast and 100 kitchens. You go in and wear the AR or the VR goggles. That's completely different because you're looking at some space that has nothing to do with yours. It's kind of what you're saying. The point is, things are changing so fast. With Boxi, it is saying, can you make this as DTC as possible? The caveat being, it could cost $10,000 to $15,000, to $20,000. It's not like ...Stephanie:Okay. Tell me what is Boxi then since we [crosstalk].John:Boxi is the first American direct to consumer cabinet brand. It's a cabinet system for the entire home. It's basically taking the last 10, 11 years of everything we've learned from IKEA and saying, let's try and offer something. I don't know, if it's ... I don't want to say better than IKEA. Because again, I've huge respect for them. It's a more complete package. Certainly, the quality is there. The accessibility is there. One of many things that we're going to improve on is the fact that Semihandmade customers have to go to IKEA first.John:It's a two-part process where you've got to go to IKEA. You've got to order the cabinets and hardware. Then you've got to order the doors from us. Thank God that they do, but especially in the last year, IKEA, like a lot of people, has suffered horribly with supply chain issues. We have customers now, unfortunately, it's January, they're hearing, cabinet boxes might not be available for three, four, or five months because ...Stephanie:I ordered a couch from Pottery Barn and four months out. [crosstalk] order, I just didn't look, I guess.John:As a business, on a personal level, that annoys me because I want ... That's a whole thing. We have such ridiculous expectations because they're easily met or they have been up until now. Not to blame Amazon because that's too easy. I'm a hypocrite about Amazon too. With Boxi, we're saying, no big box stores. Somebody can come to you, things ship, leave the factory in a week. Part of what we're doing, you're from Palo Alto, I don't know if you're born there, but it's almost like an In-N-Out Burger West Coast approach. Meaning we're going to do a limited number of items, and we're going to do it great. If you want ...John:What they do is they're great. What's interesting about that is they ... I think just little background on burgers. I think the founder was best friends with Carl Karcher who started Carl's Jr., another big West Coast place. In the '50s, they open hamburger stands right next to each other. The In-N-Out guy's thing was always, I'm not worried about competition. You're welcome to open across the street from me, next door, or whatever, because I'm just going to bury you. I'll just be that much better. Not like in an obnoxious, overly competitive way. Just like, this is going to raise our game. With us, with Boxi, yeah, limited selection, fast turnaround ships in a week, never need to go to a big box store. It's built in the US at a really competitive price point. That's the idea.Stephanie:I love that it's built in the US. I think that a lot of companies right now are bringing things back into the US and some are struggling seeing how expensive things can be and what was happening overseas and maybe how it's just different here. What did you guys learn from IKEA that you're taking with you? Then what are you discarding where you're like, we're going to do this different though?John:Again, in some ways, I learned everything from IKEA. Look, I learned a couple things. One of them is you can't compete with them in terms of pricing. That's the most basic thing. I always say like, with Amazon, the same thing, you can't ... I mean, then the turnaround lead time. Up until recently, with COVID, you could buy a kitchen today and bring it home today. Nobody else could do that at a crazy price. Best of all, really high quality. IKEA, to their credit, pretty much every year, as long as I can remember, the last 10 years, is right at the top of like J.D. Power customer satisfaction in terms of quality, customer service, things like that.John:You could complain about certain products from IKEA and their quality, but their kitchens, I think, are inarguable. As much as I'm not affiliated with them directly, I always get defensive when people would slag them. Because it's also understanding that the product that they offer, and this blows some Americans minds, but it's a particleboard core with a melamine skin, a three-quarter melamine box. That standard in the entire world for kitchen cabinets. The most expensive cabinet brands in the world are constructed the same way.John:In the US, that's less the case because 70% of the market wants a frame around their cabinet. It's literally a face frame cabinet. The European style that IKEA is called frameless 32 millimeter. Again, I've learned everything. We're deeply indebted to them.Stephanie:Well, is there anything that you're changing though now that you are exploring DTC that's [crosstalk]?John:Yeah. We'll always have the ability. With Semihandmade, one of the differentiators were ... You'll always have this when you're smaller, we're microscopic compared to them. It's just being able to be nimble, to be able to get more custom, to be able to offer certain versatility that they could never do. Limited run doors, ability to do appliance panels for really anything. The Semihandmade, we could always do that. We can do upgrades with matching ... We used to do open cabinets that match your doors and things like that. We do less of that now.John:With Boxi, what will be interesting is because the hope is anybody to scale and to have short lead times, quick turnaround, we're not going to offer as much customization. We've learned like what ... In terms of people's taste. We have eight doors, which are basically the biggest sellers for Semihandmade. It's basic white, gray, black, and some wood tones. It's not saying like we have at Semihandmade of 45 choices. That's fun to me. Because if anything, you can have too many options and that is paralyzing.Stephanie:Yup. Just going to say that I appreciate when things are curated or you showed me something cute and I'm just like, "I'll have that." Whatever that is, the white, the gold, and the brown, perfect. That's what I want. Not choose every single piece of it. Which I think is for a lot of ecommerce, that's what I've heard throughout many interviews, is don't give so many choices, show people what you think or know that they're going to want based off of preferences or how they're interacting with your site or whatever it may be.John:That's part of if there'd been multiple challenges with getting Boxi off the ground understandably. I think the biggest one is like you said, with even a call today, there was seven of us on the screen and I said, "If the seven of us were the typical technology guys or girls that knew nothing about socks, but we're launching a socks brand, we wouldn't bring all this baggage to it about what we thought we knew." With Semihandmade, we have all this great knowledge, but some of it can get in the way with the new brand.John:Because the new brand, for it to really work, you can't do all the customization. There are certain things that Semihandmade where we'll make exceptions and we'll do things. Of course, you always want to service the customer, first and foremost. It's just recognizing that if the goal is for this really to take off and grow, which I think it will, we have to be a little stricter, a little more brand fidelity, like say, this is who we are, this is how we get to where we want to go, and then stick to that.Stephanie:Yeah, that seems tricky. Having two different hats where you and your team are like, we know what works, this is what works, we build a company that does this. Then having a slow creep where you turn the other brand into the same thing. Like you said, you have to really be strict about creating a whole new company with a new vision and making sure everyone's on board and not just let the old company creep in and [crosstalk].John:I think in some ways too, whether in a good way or a bad way, the fact that we've been fortunate to have growth and success for Semihandmade, it's either made it easier or harder to get the new venture off. Because it buys you certain time. If we were a startup, we raised funding. We've got 18 months to runway all these different things that will be different. Probably, things have taken longer. On the other hand, we wouldn't have been able to do it. When this launches, what we leverage is, yeah, it's 10 years of Semihandmade. It's 25,000 projects. It's incredible.John:We have 2,000 semipro designers around the country that are champing at the bit to offer this. It's relationships we've got with Rejuvination and Kaff appliances and Caesarstone that are going to be partners. I continue to remind people and even myself like if we were a startup, we'd never have this stuff. We wouldn't have five, six amazing influencer projects that you're going to roll out in the next six weeks with the new launch. You'd be launching and then keeping your fingers crossed.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. Alright, so let's move over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have one minute or less, prepare, get your water, [inaudible], shake it out, do what you got to do. Alright, are you ready, John?John:Yup.Stephanie:Alright. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?John:That's great question. Do I have a minute for this?Stephanie:Yeah, a minute.John:I think it depends. I'm cynical about the fact that in some ways, yeah, a lot of companies have taken off, Instacart and things like that, but even like Wayfair. I was reading Bed Bath & Beyond today. I think the question is whether or not that'll be sustained. When life comes back to normal, which hopefully, inevitably will, certainly, people will be more inclined to shop online. There's no doubt about that. The world is changing. It's not going to go back. There are companies that have gotten a little frothier or whatever that I think that artificial is going to wear off. It's normalized.John:It's great. There's stuff I would have never done. Even with not ecomm, but with Zoom, we hired a new president, Beth and Molly, who runs marketing and stuff. I hired three of our highest people remotely. They're based in New York. I would have never done that. I would never trusted people or trusted myself. Now, it's normal.Stephanie:Yeah. I was slow with grocery delivery and curbside pickup. It forced me to do that because I was the one who always want to go to the grocery store, look around with my friends, whatever it maybe. Now, I'm like, oh, I don't really want to go there anymore. There's no point. I'll save my time and do other things.John:It is amazing. To me, it's more interesting to see how those people make money. That's the part where it's one thing to do great revenue. Obviously, profitability is a thing, unless it's not your money, unless you have a thing too. When it is your money, it's much more of a focus.Stephanie:Yeah. We just had someone from Intel on who was saying that they work with a hardware store and they're struggling because contractors were coming in and placing 40, 50 item orders for curbside pickup.John:All of it?Stephanie:Because they're like, why would I send in my contractor and paid him to be there for two to three hours when I could just have you all do it. They're struggling with trying to figure out the program because they weren't really expecting them.John:Yeah, that's interesting.Stephanie:I'm like, that's scary. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?John:Business wise or otherwise?Stephanie:Anything, whatever comes to mind.John:I guess the biggest cliché was my son's mom having my son. That's probably ...Stephanie:That's a good one. Having three kids, I appreciate that answer.John:I mean that from heart.Stephanie:Yeah, that's a good one. What's up next on your reading list?John:I constantly have five or six books I'm reading. That's interesting too, whether it's because I pursued writing for a long time. I haven't made the jump to eBooks. There are few writers that I correspond with on Twitter. Twitter is another thing that I didn't use that much before this. I've asked them like, "Well, what's the feeling on eBooks? Is it like cheating or whatever?" Of course, these guys and girls want to sell books. They're not considered cheating if you buy their eBook. The response I got from a bunch of them was, it's best in some ways for nonfiction.John:I read tons of nonfiction. I'm reading Say Nothing, which is a story about the troubles in Ireland. I'm finishing a great book on ecommerce called the Billion Dollar Brands book, something like that. That's spectacular. I've got so many. I'm reading a book on Chinatown, the making of the movie. I love a lot of different things. It is mainly. It's less fiction now. It is more nonfiction.Stephanie:Very cool. What is your favorite cabinet design? What's in your house?John:My house, it's interesting. Because in my house that I share with my son who I split custody with, we have a more contemporary kitchen. It's walnut. It's unique. We sell a fair amount of walnut and it is one of a kind. Every kitchen is different. That's a little more contemporary, even though it's wood. It's contemporary. In the house with my fiancé, where she lives, that's a more traditional. It's a shaker kitchen. It's got some really pretty hardware. I guess I'm very particular about what I like. In general, even when we she and I have arguments about furniture, I just say like, "Buy something quality and it'll fit with everything else." I know it's a copout, but that's where I'm landed. I love eclectic as long as it's nice quality.Stephanie:Yeah, cool. Alright and then the last one, if you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? Who would your first guest be?John:That's a great question. I like a lot of probably IKEA. I like a lot of different things. Even podcasts, same thing. I didn't listen to before, frankly, a year ago. I listened to one the other day. Marc Maron was really talented, funny guy who've been doing podcast for about 10 years. He had this guy, Daniel Lanois, who's a big time record producer, did U2 and all kinds of amazing people. I was amazed at the depth of Maron's knowledge of music. I don't have that. I don't know. I like diverse things. I don't know if I could do it.John:Because I like to think I'm a good listener, but I'm probably not because I'm always ready to say something. Obviously, like in your spot or whatever, to do it well, you should be listening to people. Again, I love screenwriting podcasts. I like anything. I like news, podcasts.Stephanie:Okay, so it'd be a little bit of everything. I like that. That's cool.John:I could do this kind of thing. If we're talking about remodeling, if anything, would always have an edge to it. If I were going to do a show, that's the thing. I gravitate less, maybe not towards Gordon Ramsay, but like Anthony Bourdain. There would be an edge to it. It wouldn't be ... Even when I was inside people's houses, I don't know if I was combative. I had very strong opinions about with architects and designers and homeowners and what I thought they should want. The one thing I don't like is when it's all sweet and sacristy and artificial. Totally with an edge.Stephanie:I like that. That sounds good. Alright, John, well, this has been a pleasure having you on. Where can people find out more about you and your work?John:Sure. Semihandmade, we can do semihandmade.com. Then Boxi, which launches March 1st, is at boxiliving, B-O-X-I-L-I-V-I-N-G.com.Stephanie:Okay, thanks.John:I appreciate the time. This has been great.Stephanie:Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. It was fun.John:Thanks for having me, Stephanie.

Wisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 1) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 2) - John WoodenWisdom from the Wizard of UCLA (Part 3) - John WoodenFamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Coaching PressureDay 2 of 3 Guest:                    John Wooden From the series:   True Success:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden  Bob:                A basketball tournament is a test.  It's a test of a team's skill and a coach's savvy.  But long before the players ever show up on the court, it can be a test of an individual's character as well.  At least it was for Coach John Wooden in 1948. John:              I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go. Bob:                John Wooden, who would go on to be come one of the greatest coaches in basketball history, but he was a coach who was known as much for his character as for his basketball prowess.  Stay with us for a conversation with the Coach, John Wooden on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Thursday edition.  You know, this would make one of those great trivia questions that pop up on those sports talk shows from time to time – who was the Indiana Rubber Man? Dennis:          Mm-hm. Bob:                Now, you know and I know, because we had a chance to talk to the Indiana Rubber Man, but I wonder how many of our listeners know that a man who is considered today to have perhaps been the greatest coach of all time in any sport, Coach John Wooden of the UCLA Bruins, was once one of the great players in basketball – both in college basketball and then in semi-pro basketball. Dennis:          That's right.  He is one of two that are in the Basketball Hall of Fame, both as a player and a coach.  The other is Lenny Wilkinson, I believe, and, of course, we talked yesterday about Coach Wooden and a little trip Bob and I made out to Southern California to interview him.  He slipped into the studio with Bob and me, and you need to hang with us today and tomorrow, because at the end of tomorrow's broadcast, I'm going to tell you a cute story about Coach Wooden autographing a book for me.                           Because I did play ball, as Bob mentioned yesterday, in college.  My average was just about the same as Coach Wooden's, in fact – no, it really wasn't. Bob:                A little less than average is what's your average. Dennis:          Yeah, I was less than average, no doubt about it, but he was an All American, as you said, Bob, but he was more than that.  He was a man of, I believe, a simple faith in Jesus Christ and in God and who lived out his commitments to his players, to his family, and to his wife, Nellie, and you're going to hear some touching moments about how this man fulfilled his marriage covenant with his wife. Bob:                Coach Wooden has been known throughout the years as a man of great integrity, great character, and a great molder of men, and if you ask him what he did, he says, "I was just a teacher.  I've taught boys how to play basketball." Dennis:          Yeah, in fact, he almost went into teaching, which is interesting. Bob:                We'll hear about that today.  This is taken from a conversation – an extended conversation – that we had with Coach John Wooden not long ago.  Here is Dennis with Coach Wooden. Dennis:          A story that you tell that I want you to share with our listeners came at the conclusion of your first year at Indiana State University, where you won the conference title, and you received an invitation to play in the NAIA Tournament, but you turned them down.  Why? John:              We had a pretty good year, the first year, and the NAIA Tournaments played in Kansas City – 32 teams then – and I had one black player on my team, and they wouldn't let them play in the tournament.  So even though this was – of the 12 men on the team, he played the least of all, he didn't get to play very much, and I wouldn't go without him, because he was a part of the team.  So I refused the invitation and wouldn't go.                         Now, the next year I had everybody back on this team, exactly the same team, no one came in and beat anybody else out, and so the next year we had a good year, and were invited again, and I refused again, and finally they reluctantly said that he could come, but he couldn't stay in the hotel where the teams were staying.  He'd have to stay someplace else.  He could have his meals there, providing we would take them in a private room.  I said no, I wouldn't do that, but I was persuaded by the NCAA and his parents that we should go; it might help.  So we went, and he stayed with a minister and his wife and came into the hotel from the game.  He didn't get to play very much at all, but that was the first black player that had ever played in that tournament, and I think a few years later an all-black team won.  So we sort of opened the door a little bit. Bob:                You undoubtedly had some players – when you came back and told the team we've been invited to the tournament but we're not going to go because they won't accept this one player – there had to be some guys going, "Coach, I want to go to Kansas City, I want to play on the team.  Let's just go along with their rules."  Didn't anybody raise their hand in protest? John:              I don't think anyone protested.  Some would have liked to have gone, yes, but they didn't.  I knew these men, and most of them I'd had in high school before, and they knew how I felt about things, and there was no problem.  They caused me no problem there. Dennis:          As your career was taking off, you were also in the process of beginning your family.  You had a daughter and a son, and what I wonder is, I wonder how did you juggle the tension of your marriage, your family, your faith, and a demanding profession?  What value in your core, as a man, was your measurement?  How did you juggle it all? John:              I wish Nellie were here to answer that question for you.  Well, Nan, of course, was born in Dayton, Kentucky, when I was down there, and then Jim was born in South Bend two years later, but I tried, definitely tried – Nellie always went to games with me, and I wouldn't leave her to go scout or anything of that sort, unless she couldn't go, not bring basketball home.  I tried not to do that.  Now, can you do that 100 percent – probably not.  But I tried not, and Nellie, when she was interviewed at times, I'd heard her say that, "John never brought the games home.  I could never tell after a practice" – she was practically at all the games – "but never after a practice, I could not tell by his demeanor whether he had a good practice or a bad practice or had problems at all."  And maybe she stretched the truth a little bit there, but I certainly tried not to.  I wanted – next to faith – I wanted family first. Bob:                We had the opportunity once to interview Coach McCartney from Colorado – a football coach who started Promise Keepers, and his wife told us that at the beginning of the football season all of the coaches and their wives would get together for a party that they said was the "Football's Here, Goodbye, Dear," party.  Because they said that from the middle of the summer until the end of whatever ball game you were going to, you rarely saw your husband.  Is the demand of coaching higher today than it was when you were coaching or did you just order your world differently than other coaches did? John:              I don't think demand is any higher, it's just what you make out of it.  You have to be disciplined on what you're doing.  You have to establish your own priorities and then stick to them.  I don't think it's any different, and as far as pressure being on you, the only pressure that amounts to a hill of beans is the pressure you put on yourself.  If you permit outside pressure, alumni pressure, or parental pressure from the outside, if you permit those to influence you, then you're weak.  You better get on with something else, but you'd probably find the same thing someplace else, too. It's like my players – when I'd recruit the player, I'd say, "Now, if you come here, you're going to be unhappy for a while.  You're going to be unhappy.  You're going to be away from home for the first time, you're not going to be the big shot that you were in high school, but you're not going to like it here for a while.  But if you go someplace, it would be the same thing.  You wouldn't like it there, so it might as well be here."  I sort of felt that way about it, and I think that pressure is – when the coaches talk to me about pressures, I say, "Get out, get out, get out."  The pressure amounts to a hill of beans of what you put on yourself.  You've got to put pressure on yourself, do a good job, do the best you can, study, work as you can, but don't let that be all-encompassing.  There are other things more important. Dennis:          How did Nellie keep your family on the track and help John Wooden as a man keep his priorities?  I mean, you undoubtedly had your moments when you would work too hard, too long, and be a little too consumed with it all.  How did she come alongside you – how was she a good helpmate and counterpart to the Coach? John:              Well, she was just a good mother and a good wife, and we had a little disagreement, I remember, one time many, many, many, many years ago, many years before I lost her, we had a little disagreement, and I left the house to go to work without [inaudible], and I should have but when I went to bed that night there was a little note on my pillow with a card, it's still there, it says, "Don't try to understand me, just love me."  And that's it.  I think we had a great relationship more than anything else, and I've said that when we – we talked about this, and, gracious, we're going to disagree on a lot of things, but let's try not to be disagreeable. Dennis:          You had a little tradition that you and Nellie enjoyed right before the game started.  Now, Bob, I remember watching Coach Wooden on TV when college basketball games started being televised, but there was something I missed as an observer, a little tradition that he had with Nellie before the game started. John:              Back when I was playing in high school, she played in the band, and I'd try to position myself where I could look up and see her in the band, and she's always give me a – and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and that continued, you know, in my teaching days.  Before every game, I'd find her and I'd give her a wink or a nod, and so that's probably what you're thinking of.  Superstition?  No, it wasn't superstition, it just made me feel good. Dennis:          Just a little wink. John:              That's right, that's right. Bob:                You wound up as the coach of UCLA because of a snowstorm. John:              Correct. Bob:                Tell us how you got that job. John:              I was considering both UCLA and the University of Minnesota.  That had both offered me the jobs, and I wanted to stay in the Midwest in the Big 10.  UCLA was going to call an hour after Minnesota was going to call.  Minnesota didn't call, and UCLA called, and I accepted.  About an hour later I got a call from Minnesota saying everything was all worked out, and I said, "I'm sorry, I've committed myself.  I can't back out now."  And there was what they called an "unseasonable" snowstorm that had the lines down, and they couldn't get to a phone to call me at the time, they said.  So that's how close it came. Bob:                Why didn't you just hang on until they got on – why did you take the job at UCLA if you wanted to be in Minnesota?  Did you think they were going to not call?  They'd decided to go with somebody else? John:              I suppose I thought that.  I don't remember exactly now.  All I know is they didn't call in time, and I'm a stickler for time.  My players will tell you one of the rules that I had throughout is be on time to your classes, to practice, to the bus – be on time – and if you're not, some action will be taken.  As the years went by, I learned not to tell them what the action would be. Bob:                It didn't matter whether there was a snowstorm or not, they needed to be on time. Dennis:          I want to know, Coach, why you chose coaching.  I mean, you said you loved to teach English, you were a teacher at heart, you could have done a lot of things.  Why did you do it? John:              I went to Purdue to become a civil engineer – that's what I wanted to do, but I didn't know – high school counseling, obviously, wasn't as good in those days, and I didn't know that to get your degree in civil engineering you had to go to civil camp every summer.  Well, I knew I couldn't go to civil camp every summer.  I had to work in the summers, so I couldn't do that.  So I changed to a Liberal Arts course and majored in English, and I knew, from that time on, I'm going to teach.  I enjoyed teaching, as time went by.  I enjoyed it.  I taught English in high school, and I wanted to be a good English teacher, and I enjoyed it, and once I got into it, I had opportunities to get out in other areas where, financially, it would have been better, but I enjoyed teaching.  Who was it said that you find a job that you enjoy, you'll never work a day in your life. Dennis:          And you view coaching as teaching? John:              Of course, it is.  That's all it is.  You're teaching sports.  You've heard some of my players, particularly some of the talkative ones like Bill Walton, will often say in his interviews that coach was teacher. Dennis:          Coach, as you taught, you believed in teaching about the fundamentals. John:              Oh, absolutely. Dennis:          In fact, in coming into this studio, the one thing I regret that I didn't bring in here – I brought you a banana, because I know you like a banana, but I should have brought a pair of socks – athletic socks – into the studio, because you took high school stars – you began with a very simple point of instruction. John:              That's correct.  I taught them how to put on their socks and their shoes.  I wanted no wrinkles in the socks, and I'd show them how to put it on and smooth around the little toe.  Your blisters usually come from around the little toe or the heel area, and I wanted to show them how to do that, because I know if you don't, they just pull them up.  To me, I think, it was just as important thing – a little detail, but little details is what make big things happen. Bob:                You had some players who obviously became players of note not only in college but on into the NBA.  Some of them seem to be outside of the Wooden paradigm, if I can call it that.  You know, Bill Walton does not strike me as the prototypical John Wooden basketball player.  It almost seems like here's a guy who can play the game, but here is a disciplined coach and a player who – well – discipline was not high on his list of virtues, was it? John:              In certain areas, you might say that, but Bill is very dear to me.  For many, many years he calls me three or four times a week from all over, but at the time he played for me, it was a time of the anti-establishment, and he was anti-establishment very much at that particular time.  I was concerned about money and things, but I have no right to determine the politics of my players.  Now, actually, the religion – that's them.  But he's a good student, he's an honor student, he's in the academic hall of fame.  When he came on the basketball floor, you couldn't ask – no one could ask – for a player to be more cooperative, set a great example.  No one worked harder – never a problem in any way.  But he had his little quirks, as we all have, and … Bob:                … what about his facial hair, though?  He did show up one time … John:              … well, he decided I didn't have the right to tell him how to wear his hair, and I said, "You're absolutely right, Bill, I don't have.  All I have the right is to determine who plays, and we're going to miss you." Bob:                You said, "If you want to keep the beard, you're off the team?" John:              That's right. Dennis:          This is an All American you're talking to. John:              That's right. Dennis:          But you drew a line in the sand over the facial hair. John:              I did, I did. Dennis:          And what did Bill do? John:              Then he hurried and got fixed up then. Bob:                He shaved his beard off, didn't he? John:              And he's been asked, "Do you think Coach would have gone through with it?"  And he said, "Well, you know what I did."  If I have a rule, I'm going to stand by it.  But always remember there can be a gray area at times.  There was a time in my teaching that I had no gray area – it was either black or white with me.  But there can be a gray area, and I made two mistakes – I made many, but I know two that I recall that I regret very much because I didn't see the gray area. Bob:                What are those two? John:              Well, I had a rule in high school that smoking was automatic dismissal from the squad for the year, and my finest player, my only center I'd had, I caught him smoking, and I dismissed him.  I had the rule, and I … Dennis:          … and you think it's a mistake now, looking back? John:              Well, he quit school, he never finished school.  He would have gone on to college.  I think I was wrong.  I should have handled it in a different way. Bob:                What was the second thing, you said, that you regretted? John:              I had a player that didn't qualify for his letter.  This was in high school, but he was a fine person that worked very, very hard, and – but, anyway, his dad came in one day and called me and wondered if I'd come out and talk to him.  I did, and he said, "Is Joe going to get a letter?"  I said – no tact ­– I said, "Well, I haven't really decided yet."  And he said, "I'll tell you this" – remember, I'm just a young man – and he said, "I'll tell you, if he doesn't, I'm going to have your job." Dennis:          He threatened you. John:              Yes, he did, and I didn't like that, and I ended up by not giving the boy his letter, and I feel, down deep in my heart, that I would have given him the letter if the dad – for the youngster because of the dad, and that's wrong. Bob:                That's Coach John Wooden from the UCLA Bruins, although, at the time he made that decision that he regretted, he wasn't coaching on a national platform, he was just coaching high school boys back in Indiana.  It's interesting just to listen back to that story and hear it resonate with a coach who cared more about doing the right thing than almost anything else. Dennis:          And, you know, Bob, he was reliving that story before us, and he's 91 years old.  That story occurred 60 years ago, but he really had a deep, profound regret that you could see on his face, as a man, that he had not done what he thought was the right thing, and I think there is a tremendous lesson for us to live lives with no regrets – to do the right thing today, to obey Jesus Christ, His Word, and the commitments to responsibilities we have.  And one of the things He's commanded us to do that I think you can use Coach Wooden to accomplish is Christ has given us the Great Commission, and we're to go and proclaim Him.                         I think this interview with Coach Wooden we've compiled into 107 minutes, two CDs, that would make a great gift to give each of your children's coaches, whether they be a Little League coach, a junior high, high school, college, it doesn't matter.  In fact, Bob, I've reflected on this – many times I wish I'd had these two CDs to have given a coach who maybe was saying a little more than he should be saying; maybe acting a way that he shouldn't have been acting, and I just have to believe that there are some coaches who are going to get these CDs – some dads and some moms who are going to – they're going to think about how they coach, how they behave, how they teach in ways because of this great coach's example.  He is truly like Christ. Bob:                What they're going to hear in the interview with Coach Wooden that you can have character and integrity and self-control and still be a champion.  In fact, you can be one of the greatest coaches who ever lived.  We've got the two-CD set available here on our FamilyLife Resource Center, and whether you want to listen to it yourself or pass it on to a coach or a player, you can contact us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY.  Ask for the two-CD set entitled "True Succes:  A Personal Visit with John Wooden" when you contact us.  Again, you can order online at FamilyLife.com or you can call 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY. Dennis:          It's a little early yet to be buying a Father's Day gift, but you might think about just getting this and stockpiling this for June. Bob:                That's a great idea.  And when you think about true success, Coach Wooden has mapped out for us what he calls a "Pyramid of Success."  He's taken the character qualities that he thinks are foundational to success – things like industriousness, loyalty and cooperation and initiative and alertness and skill.  There are many of them in this pyramid.  He's put the pyramid together, kind of like an engineer would do, to show that it's possible for anyone to achieve success in any field if these things are true about them.                         We've got his Pyramid of Success.  We've got a video where he explains the pyramid.  We've got the pyramid itself on our website at FamilyLife.com and on a mousepad that you can have at your desk, and then we've got a wallet card that has been laminated that you can carry around where some of Coach Wooden's counsel on living is recorded.  His seven-point creed – that's on a laminated card that we'll send to you, along with the video and the mousepad.  Ask for those resources when you call 1-800-FLTODAY.                           You know, our opportunity to provide these kinds of resources to you really comes as a direct result of folks all around the country who help support this ministry week in and week out with donations. Dennis:          And, Bob, there are two ways that they can join with us.  One is as a Legacy Partner, a monthly donor to our ministry, and there's another group of people who give from time to time – they may make out a check and just send it in and say I can't help you each month, but I can help this month.  You need to know that this ministry is 100 percent dependent upon God to move people like you who benefit from our broadcast to join with us in a partnership, and we need your partnership.  These are important days for you to stand with us. Bob:                Once again, if you'd like to donate to FamilyLife Today, you can do it online at FamilyLife.com or call 1-800-FLTODAY or mail a check to us at Box 8220, Little Rock, Arkansas.  Our zip code is 72221.                           Well, if you ever wondered what it was like to coach a basketball game in the Astrodome with TV lights blaring down on you, a nation watching, 50,000 fans there cheering the home team on, and you're the coach of the opposing team, and you've won 88 games in a row, you're going for number 89 and you lose – do you stay up all night worrying about what happened?  We'll find out when we talk to Coach John Wooden tomorrow.  I hope you can be with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Robbie Neal [sp], and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.    We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs? Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com 

John Cutler is a Product Evangelist for Amplitude, an analytic platform that helps companies better understand users behavior, helping to grow their businesses. John focuses on user experience and evidence-driven product development by mixing and matching various methodologies to help teams deliver lasting outcomes for their customers. As a former UX researcher at AppFolio, a product manager at Zendesk, Pendo.io, AdKeeper and RichFX, a startup founder, and a product team coach, John has a perspective that spans individual roles, domains, and products. In today’s episode, John and I discuss how productizing storytelling in analytics applications can be a powerful tool for moving analytics beyond vanity metrics. We also covered the importance of understanding customers’ jobs/tasks, involving cross-disciplinary teams when creating a product/service, and: John and Amplitude’s North Star strategy and the (3) measurements they care about when tracking their own customers’ success Why John loves the concept of analytics “notebooks” (also a particular feature of Amplitude’s product) vs. the standard dashboard method Understanding relationships between metrics through “weekly learning users” who share digestible content John’s opinions on involving domain experts and cross-discipline teams to enable products focused on outcomes over features Recognizing whether your product/app is about explanatory or exploratory analytics How Jazz relates to business – how you don’t know what you don’t know yet Resources and Links: Connect with John on LinkedIn Follow John on Twitter Keep up with John on Medium Amplitude Designing for Analytics Quotes from Today’s Episode “It’s like you know in your heart you should pair with domain experts and people who know the human problem out there and understand the decisions being made. I think organizationally, there’s a lot of organizational inertia that discourages that, unfortunately, and so you need to fight for it. My advice is to fight for it because you know that that’s important and you know that this is not just a pure data science problem or a pure analytics problem. There’s probably there’s a lot of surrounding information that you need to understand to be able to actually help the business.” – John “We definitely ‘dogfood’ our product and we also ‘dogfood’ the advice we give our customers.” – John “You know in your heart you should pair with domain experts and people who know the human problem out there and understand the decisions being made. […] there’s a lot of organizational inertia that discourages that, unfortunately, and so you need to fight for it. I guess my advice is, fight for it, because you know that it is important, and you know that this is not just a pure data science problem or a pure analytics problem.” – John “It’s very easy to create assets and create code and things that look like progress. They mask themselves as progress and improvement, and they may not actually return any business value or customer value explicitly. We have to consciously know what the outcomes are that we want.” – Brian “We got to get the right bodies in the room that know the right questions to ask. I can smell when the right questions aren’t being asked, and it’s so powerful” – Brian “Instead of thinking about what are all the right stats to consider, [I sometimes suggest teams] write in plain English, like in prose format, what would be the value that we could possibly show in the data.’ maybe it can’t even technically be achieved today. But expressing the analytics in words like, ‘you should change this knob to seven instead of nine because we found out X, Y, and Z happened. We also think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and here is how we know that, and there’s your recommendation.’ This method is highly prescriptive, but it’s an exercise in thinking about the customer’s experience.” – Brian Transcript Brian: My guest today on Experiencing Data is John Cutler who is a product evangelist at Amplitude Software. I have been really enjoying John’s commentary on Twitter and some of his articles on medium about designing better decisions of work tools. If you’re in this space and you’re trying to figure out, “How do I get into the heads of what our customers need? What types of data is actually important to track?” Especially, if you’re looking at longer term outcomes that you want to be able to measure and provide insight on, I think you’re going to enjoy my conversation with John. Without further ado, here’s my chat with John Cutler. All right, we’re back to Experiencing Data, and today we’ve got the cutlefish as your Twitter handle is known, right is it cute-l-fish or cutlefish? John: We’re going to go with cutlefish, not cute-l. Brian: That’s what I thought. John Cutler is here from Amplitude Software, which is a product analytics company, and I wanted to have John on today, not because he is cute necessarily, but because I’ve really been enjoying what you’re espousing about customer experience, and particularly, product management. Which for some of our listeners that are not working in tech companies necessarily, there’s not really a product management kind of role explicitly by title. But I think some of the, as you will probably account to, the overlap between design, user experience, and product is sometimes a gray area. I think some of the things you’re talking about are in important in the context of building analytics tools. Welcome to the show, fill in, make corrections on what I just said about what you’re doing. You’re a product evangelist at Amplitude, so what does that mean and what are you up to over there? John: Well, we’re still trying to figure out the evangelist part because I don’t necessarily sell or evangelize our product, I think our product is great and I like to say it sort of sells itself. But what I’m really focusing on is helping up level teams, now that could be like our internal teams, our customers, but largely to just prospects and teams that have never even heard of Amplitude. What we’re really looking with this role is to do workshops, provide content, I do these coaching sessions with just random teams, so it’s like one hour coaching sessions. But generally trying to fill in the blanks, I think a lot of times people think, “Well, I’m just going to purchase this analytics tool or this product analytics tool,” and suddenly it’s going to answer all our questions and everything’s going to be fine. But what they don’t quite realize is that you really have to tweak a lot of things about how you work as a product development team to really make use of the great tools that are available. There are amazing tools available. I believe Amplitude is one of them, but there is so many good software as a service products to help product teams. But really at the end of the day, it’s about the team also being aligned and things like that. I really try to take a broad view of what it will take to help people make better products with this role. Brian: Yeah. Can you give an example? I think I know where you’re going with this, but give an example of where someone had to change their expectation? You need to change the way you’re working or let’s figure out what’s important to measure instead of just expecting. I think you’re alluding to like, “Oh, buy our tool, we know what the important analytics and measurement points are that you should care about and we will unveil them.” Instead it’s like, “Well, what’s important to track? Does time on the site matter? Does engagement in the application matter? Does sharing matter? What matters, right?” Can you talk about maybe where there was a learning experience? John: Oh, absolutely. I think maybe a good way to describe this as well is a lot of the learning, a lot of the questions begin way before the team is unwrapping the problem, unraveling the problem. I’m not sure this answers your question exactly but I think we could lead into something more specific. But imagine you’re a team and someone says, “It’s the second half of 2018, what’s going to be on your roadmap?” You think about it and you know what you know and you’ve heard customers tell you things, and the CEO of the company has subtly but not so subtly hinted he’d really like to see X or she’d really like to see X. You put together this roadmap, and at that point once you’ve got people thinking that those solutions are the right solutions, and you force that level of convergence, there’s not a lot of… measurement will not save you at that point, you’ve already committed at that point to deliver those things in that particular setting. One example of a practice that might change to further or amplify the use of measurement would just be not making… committing to missions, committing to move particular metrics that the company believes are associated with mid to long-term growth of the company, and commit to those things instead of committing to build features. An example, a real world example, maybe for someone’s effort, maybe what you’re shooting at before is do they shift from same time on site was important to something else? But for a lot of these teams, it’s shifting from build feature X to something like shortening the time it takes for a team to be able to complete a workflow. That’s the big shift for that. It’s nothing-to-something that makes sense, not necessarily even something-to-something. Brian: One of the things we talk about on the show is designing for outcomes instead of designing outputs. John: Yep. Brian: Because it’s very easy to create assets and create code and things that look like progress. They mask themselves as progress and improvement, and they may not actually return any business value or customer value explicitly. We have to consciously know what the outcomes are that we want let alone measure them. Do you run into the problem when you… If you’re coaching someone and getting them into this mindset of designing around an outcome and building your sprint or your next, maybe it’s even a strategy for the next six to 12 months around outcomes? That the important things to measure are not quantifiable in the tool? Do you work yourself out of a customer sometimes because the tool can’t actually measure what’s important? Does that ever happen? John: That’s a great question because I think that I do a fun exercise with people, which is called let’s predict the success of a relationship. We start with this activity and we just we forget about what we think is possible to measure and we just start mapping our beliefs. The team will say something like, “Well, I think that they shouldn’t have arguments.” Then someone will say, “Well, yeah, but it’s not just,” and maybe they’re talking about their own life like, “Well, we argue a lot, but we resolve our arguments pretty, we become stronger once we have the arguments.” Then the team will sit there and go, “Huh, okay.” It’s not just about the number of arguments, it’s ability to resolve your arguments. Brian: Resolve. John: We keep playing this game and we map our beliefs out to predicting these things, and some of these things we have more confidence about and some of these things we don’t have a lot of confidence about. Some of these things we strike and we get this big messy network of nodes and edges on the wall and that’s what we start working with. What’s really, really interesting is that we actually, as a company, there’s almost always some percentage of these things that we can contribute to in terms of what they can instrument in using our product. It’s not like…we would much rather our customers map the universe of things and acknowledge some things that might be difficult to measure or they’re just beliefs at the moment, they haven’t figured out how to measure them. Because really what Amplitude is very powerful at is doing behavioral analytics about these long standing customer journeys through products and those types of… Anyone who’s done a 15-table join and tried to communicate it to other people in your company and then tweak it and have people collaborate with it just knows how painful that is. That’s the type of pain that we solve. But back to the particular question, all the coaching really centers around mapping all the beliefs, and we’re usually confident that there are ways to measure some percentage of those things using our product, and that’s fine by us. Brian: There’s almost like a meta-question, right? John: I like, I’m meta, yeah, I got it. I’m there with you. Brian: You’re like analytics, you’re an analytics product and you talk to your clients about what’s important for them to measure. But then at some point, you have to know what’s important to measure to know that your customers are getting the value. John: Yeah. Brian: Is it directly…are you interested in what they’re setting up to measure and then that becomes your measurement? Do you piggyback off that or do you… How do you justify that the sprint or the epic we worked on last quarter provided business value? How do you…? John: Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah, we definitely dogfood our product and we also dogfood the advice we give people usually first. To give you an example like in 2018, we had this North Star Metric called “Weekly Querying Users”, WQUs. That seemed about right and we did some analysis and it looked like, “Well, for increasing WQUs, it’s probably going to mean this and this and it’s going to be some early indicator that our monthly recurring revenue is going to keep going up”, etc. But there were obvious problems with that and we saw that. And as 2018 went along, we started to look at it more, and for any SaaS company, there’s a point at which your expansion within existing accounts starts to be really, really important in terms of percentage of revenue that you’re in. We thought, “Well, is that metric, can you hand WQUs to any new team member and say move that or move something that you think moves that,” and then be 100% confident they’re going to make good decisions? It broke down after that. What we did is we shifted to weekly learning users. Now a weekly learning user is not just someone querying, because anyone who uses one of these tools knows you could just sit there and query all day and not get an answer. In fact, querying more might indicate that you are not getting an answer. Not like doing anything with it. A weekly learning user is actually someone who shares some piece of digestible content whether it’s notebook, whether it’s a dashboard, whether it’s a chart, and they share it. We actually have this North Star, which is weekly learning users, we believe these three inputs drive weekly learning users and those are activated accounts. They need to know what they’re doing, they’re broadcasted learnings, which is the ability for the user to attempt to broadcast some number of learnings, and then a metric that is a consumption of learning metric which is the broad consumption across the organization of that particular piece of learning. This is all sounds really heady, why would we go to all these lengths to do this, and Weekly Querying User sounded good. But to us this really encapsulates a strategy. I think that that’s an important thing that a lot of people from pure analytics backgrounds or who are used to sitting with a queue of questions and answering those questions are maybe not used to the idea of moving towards a cohesive strategy as expressed by a number of metrics and the relationships between those metrics. That’s something that we really encourage our customers to do, it’s not data snacking. It’s not like, “Oh, I got this itch today so I’m going to answer this question.” That took a lot of work to come up with that, and we’re confident about those relationships between those things. But more importantly, it helps any new team member like all you need to do is show a skilled product manager or a skilled designer or a developer even and say, “This is our current mental model as described by the relationship between these things. Where do you want to slot in? What do you have in mind?” That’s really, really powerful. I don’t know if that roundabout way of saying we take this really, really seriously. Brian: If I can sum this up, and I’ll need you to repeat part of it, but you have monthly querying users, so what I take that to be is I, the customer, using, paying for the Amplitude software, a querying user means I went in and I looked for content or I literally used a search interface to probably look up an analytic or some stat. You moved away from the number of people doing that and how often they’re doing it as a measurement of your company’s success to this three-stage kind of thing that I heard included sharing some knowledge. But can you repeat what those three grains were? John: Oh, yeah, sure. The North Star is what we call “Weekly Learning Users”, so WLUs. Those are users performing the behavior of interest, which is sharing, distributing some piece of content. Then we believe there are three inputs that explain that metric or three inputs that we really focus on. One is that the accounts are activated, which are meaning that does this account just have a minimum number of people doing that? The next one is broadcasted learnings, which is me, “is the initial attempt to broadcast the learning?” Then consumption is the actual long tail consumption of that particular learning. Let’s say it is a story like I sign up with Amplitude, no one’s really using it all because we haven’t really onboarded and we haven’t really instrumented, we haven’t done any of that stuff. Okay, well, then we get that done, so we get just that we’ve activated, we have at least a certain number of users learning, some amount. I’m in the tool, I’m in a notebook that is really interesting that I’m putting together that tells a story with data, very interesting about the mission that I’m working on. I attempt to invite people to that notebook or get them involved, that’s the broadcast. Then, finally, the consumption of learning would be the accumulated interactions with everyone with a notebook. If that sounds too complex… Brian: Got it. I don’t know, I- John: But the whole idea is for people listening and I think especially folks, designers and other folks is that their experience with analytics might be something very simple like “what percentage of people used feature?” Or something. What they’re not getting is the context, the relationships, and what I’m describing here, there’s amazing belief networks, there’s causal relationship diagrams, there’s just simple stickies and string on the wall, whatever you want to call them. But we’re describing our beliefs as it relates to the data, and I think that, that’s really important. For some background too, I’m not a data scientist, I’ve been a product manager and a UX researcher and that’s been my focus for a long time. It’s not like I’m a pro at this stuff, and even for me, though, it grounds me in what I’m working with and makes my analysis a lot easier. Brian: I imagine you may have some, not resistance, but when you’re working with quote data people or analytics people or data science people in your staff, in Amplitude, are there routine things that you wish they would hear that would sink in or problems that maybe they’re not aware of that you think they should be like, “We need to look at the problem differently.” Maybe you encapsulated that and that’s why you have this three stage thing as a reaction to the data snacking mentality, which is “What data do we provide? Great, they have it, now they can eat it.” Is that their reaction to that or are there other things that… I’m thinking of our listeners, we do have data scientists and analytics type people, and I’m wondering if you were to work with them, it’s like, “Here are the things that I want you to think about here to get our head a little bit out of the tech for a second and into the decision support mentality.” Anything, what would you espouse or advocate? John: That’s a great question. I think I can answer it a little bit with a story. I was the PM for search and relevance at Zendesk, like support software. My background is not in information retrieval or the guts of search but very, very early on working on a team with very, very talented people, data scientists, data engineers really, at the end of the day. One thing that I very much advocated for is we needed to be able to get everyone in the same room, we needed to get the people who were experts in what I would just call the actors, the support agents, or the support managers, or the the person trying to get help on their Uber app. There’s experts in that, there’s domain experts. There’s also people who are experts in the surface area, the surface, like the interface. There’s people who are really, really good at searching or finding information on mobile. There’s people who’s very good at finding information on, in our case, like the support agents view in their web browser. Then you had our people who are really smart and creating data as it related to search and they were great at data engineering, etc. The main thing that I noticed was that there’s just a silo-ing, and the people on my team were just craving, craving to be sitting next to someone who understood these other things really well. I think that for a lot of listeners it’s probably you know that, you know that from a first principles angle, you’re like, “Well, I know that there’s a bigger picture here.” I know that just in our case of searching like we knew that raising the mean reciprocal rank of a search term, we are searching it, where does the person click? Do they click on the second item, the fifth item. In theory, raising that would make a difference but when we look more broadly, it really didn’t relate to deflection of tickets and things like that. Our traditional metrics, the way we were measuring success is locally related to search. If we broadened our horizon to what makes a difference for the human beings out there who need their support tickets resolved or the support agents or things, that perspective was so helpful. What I would say to the folks on listening, it’s like you know in your heart you should pair with domain experts and people who know the human problem out there and understand the decisions being made. I think, organizationally, there’s a lot of organizational inertia that discourages that, unfortunately, and so you need to fight for it. I guess my advice is fight for it because you know that that’s important and you know that this is not just a pure data science problem or a pure analytics problem. There’s probably there’s a lot of surrounding information that you need to understand to be able to actually help the business. Brian: Sure, and you’re echoing sentiment I had a Data Center from the Broad Institute on, he was mentioning how much he’s like, “My work is so much more powerful when I have a great domain expert with me who really knows the space.” We met over music, I’m a musician as well and he was trying to explore creativity in the context of jazz. He’s a enthusiast in terms of music, he’s not a musician, but he’s an enthusiast so he understood some of it but he didn’t have the lingo. It’s just interesting when you look at someone working in that space trying to answer a question about like, “How does creativity work in jazz?” They don’t have all that domain lingo. Being on for a change, being the domain expert, it was fascinating for me to be on the other side because usually I’m the hymn advocate, even though I’m not a data scientist, as a designer and a consultant, we deal with this all the time. It’s like, we got to get the right bodies in the room that know the right questions to ask. I can smell when the right questions aren’t being asked and it’s so powerful so I totally agree with you on the need to provide that bigger context sometimes so you don’t just- John: Jazz is just a mistake played more than once, right? Brian: Yeah. Oh, there’s tons of them, there’s no wrong notes, just bad choices. John: It’s very easy for them to create the model for that. You’re just making a mistake and play it more than once. Brian: Exactly. John: Then you go back to the top. Brian: Exactly. Well, even that, like play the head again. Well, what’s a head? Oh, okay. Well, it’s just one form of the tune and they cycle through it and play chorus. Well, what’s a chorus? Okay, shit. But even having that, you can imagine that on the business client, this was like a fun side project he was working on. But you can imagine that in a business context where you don’t even know what you don’t know yet about it yet. I hear this as happening, they’re still in the, especially, in the non-tech company space, the more traditional companies that are, “Oh, we have 100 years of data and let’s go, we need to go buy some data scientists and throw them at this pile of data and then magic will come out the other end.” John: Oh, I think that that happens in tech companies, too, though. I think that that’s the number of data scientist friends who’ve been hired in is like some large effort. Then, one, they’re like, “Yeah, and data engineering was the actual problem.” Okay, we spent our first year there just going around in circles on solving that problem, and then, yeah, the number of friends I have who’ve been frustrated by that dynamic, even in tech companies, I think it’s a pretty common, more common everywhere than we would think. Brian: Tell me a little bit about, so we’ve been talking about the analytical part of all this, the quantifiable parts largely but you have a UX research background as well. We talk, on this show, we talk about empathy, we talk about the needs to go talk to people to ask good questions, to ladder up, get into all that. How does that fit in? When you’re working on an analytics tool, can you fill us in on your approach to qualitative research and more the soft, mushy stuff that UX people deal with? John: Yeah, and it’s interesting. For context, I’m not a UX researcher at Amplitude but I’ve done that in prior environments that required the chops. But in talking to teams and doing it, I think so many of the basics apply in the sense that you’re really… Not to overuse the jobs-to-be-done stuff, you’re really, really trying to understand what decision this person is hoping to make. You’re really trying and then what impact that decision has on the rest of the organization and who is involved in it. I think anyone who’s done this knows that even as a UX researcher, if I do like a co-design activity with customers related to anything analytics oriented, it’s just, “Oh, we’re going to do an Excel mock up or you know.” Anytime you get customers involved with that, it’s so easy. If either side, and I’ve been on both sides of this, it’s so easy to forget what you were trying to do. I think that has a lot to do with the exploratory aspect of data in general that we have a gut instinct that if we just saw this stuff organized like this, then it would somehow be valuable for something we have to do. I think that for, and I don’t know if it answers the question, but I think it requires the same chops but also understanding that people just have a hard time, users have a hard time talking about what they are looking at and what they’re hoping to get out of the data when they’re looking at it over and over and over. I think that really, it really you have to use all the tools in the tool shed. To give you an example, there was… I don’t know if you’ve done these things too, I’ll do these exercises where it’s like, “Okay, we’re revamping the app, it’s just going to be this mobile browser with three numbers on it.” That’s it, that we’re not going to have all these fancy charts, we’re not going to have all this stuff. And three numbers and then one piece of narrative advice, like “Consider this or do this.” I love activities like that from a UX researcher standpoint when I’m working with people because it really, really forces them to just get out of their own head to think about it. That’s like a common trick and you probably have a lot more. But, yeah, I don’t know if I answered the question but it’s a lot of the same tools. But I think also you have to really… It’s a job environment, they’re making decisions, they’re hiring these analytics to do a job. But then with this added layer that I think that people are just incredibly, they find it incredibly difficult to talk about the numbers that they’re looking for. Brian: When you say it’s difficult for them to talk about it, are you talking about their digestion of what’s on the screen or their expression of what’s important to them to actually find out? What do I actually want to learn about? Is it… John: Both really, and that’s the thing that I think just makes it doubly as hard. It means that if you show them something, and I think that we can all relate to it too, like any of us who have been shown some mock or some prototype of information on the screen, you can see your gears turning. You’re having to process it and where did this come from? Can I trust it? What is it? We see that all the time just in Amplitude, it’s people… Our understanding of how people experience some of these querying screens that we have, when you actually ask them to just talk through what they’re thinking about as they move through it, it’s just it’s so complex. Data trust, where is this stuff coming from, data over time, their challenges with certain visualization techniques, even if it’s “the right technique” like, “Well, I just need a radar chart.” Just like no you don’t really. But that’s how they’ve been anchored or whatever. It’s just complex. I don’t have a fancy answer, it’s just complex. Brian: What you just told me reminds me of you had mentioned you do this exercise, and I’m wondering if it’s the same exercise that I’ve done as well with analytics tools, especially, in the context of monitoring applications. There’s some system that’s monitoring stuff and it’s supposed to advise you on what should I do next or what happens with something like this? It’s like “instead of thinking about what are all the right stats to do”, it’s “write in plain English like a prose format what would be the value that we could possibly show”, and maybe we can’t even technically do it today. But it’s “express the analytics and words like you should change this knob to seven instead of nine because we found out X, Y, and Z happened. We also think blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and this is how we know that, and there’s your recommendation.” It’s highly prescriptive but it’s an exercise in thinking about the customer’s experience. How close to that can we get to it, where I don’t have to infer from charts or whatever the date of this format is, how close could we get to something that prescriptive and then try to work backwards from that. We probably can’t get right to that full prose. Is it something like that where you jump to this conclusion, like value conclusion or something like that? John: Yeah, and I do a couple of these like that, one is if I have an Alexa or if I have a tube of crackers or whatever I’m like, “This is the interface now.” You can ask Alexa, that’s your interface. This is a beautiful future world where you just have your smart person, your smart assistant to do these things. Yeah, similar type of, I think, what it does is it creates just enough dissonance to snap people out of just immediately trying to unravel the visualization, which can be I think all of us do that. I think that that’s our instinct whenever we look at something like that. Brian: The default next question is how should we visualize this data that we’ve captured? That’s the itch that we may not be the one to scratch? John: Yeah, but I think that’s also what we can test with, that point, when we’ve got that need to fill, that’s when we can try multiple approaches, I think to see that. That’s my experience, there is that point at which you need to you go back to the drawing board. Although, I would say that depending on the subject, the user in that case or the person you’re working with, some people are really, really good at just the co-design aspect. I don’t know your experience with that, but it seems to have a lot to do with what the people do each day and how they think about visualization and stuff. But I’ve done co-design sessions with people who the next step was, “Well, let’s start thinking about, let’s start drawing, let’s start doing some other things to do it.” I think that depends a lot on the background of the people that you’re working with. Brian: If you were starting over today with Amplitude, is there either a… Not necessarily a feature you would change but is there something that you would approach differently? If someone says, “Hey, we have this JavaScript widget, you paste it in your, all your app or whatever, and we can track almost anything, any activity, whatever. What should we show?” Is there something you would change about maybe how you guys went, the process you went about arriving at the current product that you have? John: That’s interesting. I wish Spencer and Jeffrey were here to answer because they’re the founders of the company. But I think that it’s funny how products have their history about them, so Amplitude, for example, it was a Y Combinator. The founders didn’t go to Y Combinator, they had this fancy voice app or something that they were working on, and this was actually just their effort. They were like, “Well, we kind of had this app,” and they surveyed what was available and then just said, “We really need, there’s a thing, it’s a little different. It’s like an event based measurement thing. We really want to instrument this app and know whether people are using it or not.” That was the founding story, it wasn’t their key thing. A lot of the early customers were folks from Zynga or Facebook or other places that had moved on to other startups and then they wanted something that helped with the 90% of product questions that they had around retention and engagement and complex behavior patterns. Does this behavior predict this or is there a relationship between these things? That’s the founding story, these discerning teams that had a fair amount of autonomy and were tasked with working in these environments and that they wanted a product that they could do that with. When I’m thinking about what I would change as the newcomer to the company, now maybe five years on, was it, yeah, or six years or seven years on, I think it’s what they’re starting to do now, which is interesting. This notebooks feature to me is just so, so, so good and it gets away from a traditional dashboard. But with a notebook, it’s very similar to a data science notebook, you can weave this story and this narrative and you can make the charts live and you can communicate it and you can do those things. As a product manager, that is pure gold to me, and it’s just we’ve started to do those things. I think that the answer would be more of what they’re really digging into now, which is around this learning user concept and how do you create stories with the data to motivate your team and keep everyone aligned and things. I think if it hadn’t existed and I joined a year ago, I would have been like, “Oh, you’re missing this little element like the actual part that integrates it into day to day product development.” But they’ve just started doing that now, so they stole my answer. Brian: Nice, and just for people that don’t know, tell me if I got this right, but the notebooks for people that aren’t data scientist, it’s effectively a collection of both quant data like maybe charts or tables, stats, data collection that you guys have put into some visualized widgets or whatever it may be insights plus qualitative stuff like my commentary on it. Like “Why do we care about this? Well, design is currently tracking these metrics because we’re running a study on dah, dah, dah, and we think we can move this up” and that’s a proxy for this other thing. You can provide all this context in that storytelling mentality so that when someone new comes in, they’re like, “Why do I care about time on site or whatever the metric?” John: Exactly, and that’s the huge thing. One thing that we learned, we’re in this business of teams getting going and it’s like it’s so easy to get to the point where you’ve instrumented your products and any new person joining your company can’t make heads or tails of anything. It’s like you’ve got all these events, are these duplicate events? We’ve invested a lot of time in this taxonomy feature, which helps manage your taxo- It’s way, way, when people try to build this stuff in-house, they just forget about all that stuff. Like, “Oh, it’s just events, it’s semi-structured information, we’re going to put it here and then we’re just going to run queries on it.” But all that’s really, really important, so back to the notebooks thing, one of the biggest use cases we’ve seen in notebooks is people using them to onboard people and orient them with all the available analytics that and metrics and things that are being recorded. That’s actually a really good testament to show that need. Brian: They use it to actually show how they use Amplitude at the- John: Right, it’s pretty meta. Brian: Wow, that’s awesome. John: Yeah, we see them do that or even some of them use it for training like, “Okay, let’s start with this idea that we’ve got this whole universe of users. Well, how would we segment those? Well, here are the key ways that we segment.” Okay, that we’ve gone down one layer, and so I think that that’s kind of cool. But, yeah, for people who don’t know about these data science notebooks, it is a mix of qualitative, quantitative, you can embed charts that are live or you could embed point-in-time charts, you can make comments, and you can do various things. I think for a lot of people who don’t do this for a living, they get intimidated and it’s not, a lot of the stuff is not rocket science, but it’s just annoying to have to go to someone in your company and say, “Hey, can you spend like three or four hours just explaining our information to us.” That’s really hard to do, so these notebooks help with that particular thing. I think that type of stuff is really the future of moving away from just very, very stayed dashboards and things like that. Brian: Right. I don’t know if there’s much in terms of predictive or prescriptive intelligence in the tool, does the tool provide that as well or is it mostly rear view mirror analytics? John: It’s interesting you say that, so we have this new feature called Impact Analysis, and so in Impact Analysis you are able to go from day zero of a particular use of a particular feature and then see the impact that it has on another set of things. We give some statistics and we give some other values in there. So we’re middle of the road moving to more and more complex questions. But one thing that our team realizes that anything… To prevent people from making bad decisions or making poor statements, you need to be so, so, so careful about presenting what you’re actually showing if there’s a correlation between something or even implying that there’s causation without doing the background on it. We’re not completely rear view and we’re in this middle ground, but we’re also going to go on record and say we’re predicting what this value’s going to be in six months. Brian: Right, and the reason, and not just the hype of machine learning, blah, blah, blah, that’s not my main reason for asking was going to lead into my next question, which was do you struggle at all with the expression in the tool of the evidence that backs up any types of conclusions that you’re showing? Do your customers care? Well, how did you guys arrive at this? John: They absolutely care, and so like one of the… We spent a lot of time in the ability, in Amplitude, any data point that you see, usually, if you hover over it, there’s a message it says, “Click to inspect,” or you can create a cohort off of that or you can see the paths to that particular thing. What we really made this effort to do is exactly right, is that people… Working at two analytics companies now, Pendo and now Amplitude, data trust and people being able to unravel what that number means in a way that makes sense to them seems like one of the massive limiters. It’s just that thing that it’s best laid plans start, that’s the entropy that exists with these tools as people use them more and more. There’s just it gets messier, a bunch of hands, a bunch of people are playing around. At least with Amplitude, they try to make a really big effort to like if you want to understand why that number is there and what is behind it, we try to make that really easy. John: But we could always do better because in my mind this is the number one difference between the more data snacking approach like “it kind of looks interesting, that number,” something that you can really pin your business on, which I think is what people… That’s the dream of all this, but then once people start to ask good questions really, it really challenges the tool. Brian: John, this has been fantastic chatting with you, I really appreciate you sharing this with our listeners. Do you have any parting wisdom or anything you’d like to share with people that are maybe working more on the tech side or the data side of the thing and the vents and they’re trying to, “I want to produce more use, whether it’s reports or actually software applications. But we’re trying to provide better stuff, more engaging, more useful…” Any closing advice you might give to someone like that? John: I’m going back to what we were talking about from the UX research angle is that I think that in this area, there’s so much temptation to any one of us who’ve done this is that there’s this constant push and pull between customizability and then this promise of preemptive insights like smart system, it’s intelligent, it’s doing these things. Then so how prescriptive are you? Is what you’re presenting and actually helping someone to do their job. I think that it’s probably reflective of my learning at Amplitude is that really going to human centered design, like really thinking about if the person is able to effectively do their job and really able to answer the questions that they’re answering. I think that what happens is all of us want that, but then we hit this wall and we start to get really some conflating information from users and we start to… Then we’re like, “Well, okay, we’re just going to let them find what they want to find. I think that, that exploratory type of research should be something that’s possible in these tools. In fact, I think that leads to asking some of the best questions when users can do that. But I would really hope that people don’t abandon the idea of being really patient and seeing if before they just throw their hands up in the air and will say, “Well, we’ll just make a query builder and that’s it, that’s it.” Like really seeing if that thing can solve the problem. I don’t know if that makes sense, but I think it’s something that’s really been on my mind a lot lately. Brian: Yeah, I talk about sometimes like with clients and people in this space about knowing whether or not you’re producing an explanatory product or an exploratory product. It doesn’t mean you can’t necessarily have some of both but there’s a big difference between the value, like in your case, I’m guessing a lot of these people really want some explanations when they tell us about what we can do to make our software better. They’re not there for fun, but they might run across some things they didn’t know were possible which begins the questioning. But if you put all the effort on them, you’re just shifting the tool effort over to the customer. You’re making it much harder for them to get the value out at which point they may abandon or quit. It’s not just knowing are we explanatory or exploratory or at least there’s this feature or there’s this outcome that this goal that we’re working on, the sprint. But just being aware of that I think is part of the challenge. Like should they be able to walk away with… I should be in the six to 19 apple’s range, whatever that means, like, should I be able to walk away with that level of clarity or not? I don’t know. John: I think that it’s also something like, that’s interesting you said that, because a lot of features that we’re experimenting with, one thing that Amplitude does is anytime you… We built an undo feature, so we try to make it really easy to go really deep and then just back out really gracefully. It’s like infinite, every version of the chart as you work on one is saved. You can back out of it. There’s a lot of features like Save As or you’re built like you could go to someone else’s chart, and if you have some idea of where you want to take it, you could edit it. But you’re not editing their chart, you’re editing a copy and you can think about it. But back to that point is I think that there’s many things that you can do to encourage, that you can juggle those needs concurrently for having definitive things and then also encouraging exploration. We’ve found that with our product as we experiment more. One, I just told you about it, like the ability to telescope into a metric and then do more exploration around it. That didn’t exist before and then we were like, “Oh, well, how about when you hover over any data point and you allow them to inspect that or explore that?” I would say that there are ways to accommodate both at least from our perspective and what we’ve learned. Brian: Right, and I think there’s always some of both of that, and I don’t think most people are going to take everything on its face value. But I hear what you’re saying. One of the things I’ve been recently working on is a UX framework for this called the CED framework, just conclusion, evidence, and data. It’s not necessarily a literal expression of “Where should the screens go? What goes on every screen?” But the concept that when possible, if the tool can provide conclusions with the second tier of being the evidence by which the tool or application arrived at this conclusion. Level three might be really getting into the raw data like, “What are the queries? What was the sequel that actually ran?” Or whatever the heck it may be, there’s times when maybe that data is necessary early on a customer journey. It may just be, “We need to build trust around this stuff.” We can’t be totally black box, but we don’t actually expect people to spend a lot of time at the D-level. We really want them to work in the C level, but it’ll take time and evidence is required sometimes if you’re going… Especially, I got to go to the boss, I can’t just tell him it’s 18, we should be at 18, not 12. It’s like, “Well, how did you arrive at that?” John: We find a lot is the instrumentation rigor is like that’s one of our big problems to solve really is there are these products on the market that do just try to record everything for it. There’s a lot of entropy there and there’s a lot of issues. They’re very fragile, in some ways, so we as a company definitely believe in explicitly instrumenting these events. But at the same time, you’d be amazed how many product teams… There’s this thing called a user story, you write a user story that’s from the user’s perspective, what are you trying to do? Now you would think that like, “Okay, well, we’ll tack on to the acceptance criteria for any story that you’ll use a noun and a verb, and you’ll get these properties and you’ll get these things. Integrating instrumentation on the product level, not necessarily like, “Okay, we’re instrumenting how our servers are working or anything,” but just, “What did the user do?” That’s still relatively new. People who’ve worked in environments that just do that as second nature that, okay, they’re in another thing, but we find that companies even need to change that approach. You’ve mentioned your CED thing like what’s interesting is that extends to the UX of instrumenting. It’s pretty interesting from that, it’s you’re the user trying to draw some conclusion, you’re doing these things. But it’s almost like service design, in some sense, because you need to design the approach to even instrumenting this stuff. It makes your head hurt sometimes. Brian: Yeah, all this stuff makes my head hurt. But that’s why we have conversations, hopefully, we’re knowledge sharing and it’s like giant aspirin conversations or something, I don’t know. But I found this super useful, thanks for coming on the show. Where can people follow you? I know I found you on Twitter. I forget how but what’s your [crosstalk 00:47:23]- John: Twitter is good, I’ve installed a Stay Focused app to prevent more than 20 minutes a day on Twitter. But you will find me eventually there. I write a fair amount on Medium and it’s pretty easy to find me there. Brian: Okay. John: If you just type in “John Cutler product”, I have about 400+ posts on Medium. Some are better than others but- Brian: Awesome. John: … yeah, that’s the best way for right now. Brian: Awesome. Well, I will definitely link both of those, your Medium page and your Twitter up in the show links. Man, John, it has been really fun to chat with you here. Thanks for coming on the show. John: Cool. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, awesome. Brian: Yeah, super. All right, well, cheers. John: Cheers, bye-bye.

The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough Creating More Income with John Gies After more than two decades in corporate, John Gies heard a potential client say that $400,000 tax free was not worth his time. John knew then that he wanted to work where he could make a difference. Over the next several years he gained his Coach Certification, He has taught and coached organizations around the country and he now works with small business owners and non-profit organizations to help them create the income they need to thrive. John's personal live vision is a world where people are inspired to leverage their power and influence to contribute to a more sustainable and positive workplace.   Read the Interview [Due to a video issue, the beginning of interview is lost. Transcript begins when video was restored.] John Gies: A communication coach, that transitioned from- I see your face. Was there a question there?   Hugh Ballou: No, I love that story. Go ahead. I'm excited about that. John: When I left, what I wanted to do is I tried to look at other companies or other industries. The roads seemed to be closed. I said, What do I like doing? I love speaking in front of an audience. I love training and mentoring my teams. I love facilitating that conversation around the table where we've got different interests, maybe sales, operations, and technology trying to create a common vision, and trying to get to that with all those different points of view. I said, Why don't I become a coach and a trainer? I went to work with a company. I got a chance to do some teaching and coaching across North America and Europe around sales, sales training, presentation skills, negotiation skills. Hugh, I hate to sound stereotypical, but stereotypes do exist. The Brits were almost on time, the Germans were early all the time, the French and the Italians showed up when they wanted to show up. It was an interesting experience. The Americans unfortunately were the ones who said, “We're doing great. We don't need any help.” It was an interesting experience for me. Hugh: That's a stereotype, but it's sad, isn't it? John: It is. Yet it sounds something about us, right? Stereotypes are stereotypes in some cases. His name is going to escape me. Someone once said, “If you hear a cliché, look to the truth in the cliché. There is probably something in there that led to the cliché.” Hugh: Isn't that why they are clichés? John: Right. While I was working with them, when they had lots of clients, I was busy. When they didn't have clients, I wasn't busy, so I decided to embark on my own. Today, I work with organizations with what I call a wholehearted approach to business. It's not a name that you often think of when you think about business. But wholehearted is three pillars. There is the profit/revenue/money. I used to work with a nonprofit healthcare executive, who I will call Sister Mary. She said, “People come to me all the time and ask why we don't provide this for free.” Her response was, “If there is no money, there's no mission.” It's really making sure that we have the money to fulfill our mission. Then there is leadership. Self leadership starts. If we can't manage ourselves, we can't manage other people. Hey, Russell. Russell Dennis: Greetings. John: Then it's the impact we have. Same impact we have on our people, our clientele, our community, the environment, the whole thing. That's three pillars. Hugh: Russell, there is some background noise, so I muted you. You will have to unmute yourself when you come on. He is putting on his headset. John, I want to get those three points. Those went by fast. Let's capture those bullet points. John: There is profit. Whether we are in a nonprofit, a small business, or a big business, we can't fulfill our mission without money. People rely upon us to be here in the long haul. It's not just a dream to serve. We have to create the sustainability for our future. There is leadership. Leadership starts with self-leadership before we can lead others. I can share with you what I mean about that. When I think of one place that leadership is the weakest, it tends to be ourselves. The third pillar is impact. What impact are we having on our clients, customers, employees, communities, and stakeholders? I was really influenced by a book called Firms of Endearment. It's a good-to-great comparison of stakeholder organizations versus shareholder organizations. Stakeholders are employees, vendors, the community, the environment, and shareholders. They outperform the S&P by 16X. They outperform the good-to-great companies by a factor of 10X. This lasted even through the Great Recession we just went through. For me, it's how we take care of all the people in our organizations instead of just focusing on one limited subset of our stakeholders. Hugh: Absolutely. We teach those very same things. But it's good to have you on here because people don't listen to us. We're so much in sync with that. John Maxwell in his 21 irrefutable laws of leadership has the law of the lid. You hit the ceiling of the lid, and your organization can't progress any further than your ability to lead. That is true over and over. Our boards, our teams, our cultures are a reflection of our leadership. You may or may not know I am a musical conductor. What they see is what I get. What I practice in real life as a conductor works in the board room, works with the staff, works with the volunteers. It really doesn't matter where we're leading; the concepts are the same. Russell is coming in from a remote location. He was trying to find a connection last we spoke. Russell is the one who connected with you and suggested you be our guest today. I have looked over your website. It's good stuff with some nice design. I am impressed with what you do. Thanks to Russell for finding you and finding the synergy. One thing you said was about the mindset. Thinking about the profit, leadership, and impact, and the stakeholders. [Audio issue] Clergy, people like that. Maybe even major donors. If you want to get money, you want to make sure you demonstrate impact. We want to see a difference. [Video freeze] Did I lose you? I'm here. Talk about that a minute, and where that fits into your thinking, how people misperceive profit, how people misperceive leadership. Can you hear me? I think he's frozen. Maybe, we're having a technical issue today, folks. So maybe we'll get back together. John, he showed up over there. We seem to be having some technical issues. John, your video dropped out. There you are. Russell? Same neck of the woods as him. Is there an internet outage out there? Russell: I am downtown preparing for the GlobalMindED event. We have leaders here, global-minded. It's a nonprofit that provides services to help first-generation college students connect with employers. Very big event coming up here. Starting tomorrow. It will be running through Friday. That's where I'm at. Helping with that, looking to set up interviews with leaders and coverage of the event so we have things to talk about. Hopefully, John is back with us. He has done a lot of work. He started out with healthcare organizations and started seeing some leadership challenges around that. He has done a lot of work and worked with a lot of organizations here in the Denver area to deal with some of the bottlenecks you experience with leadership. When those bottlenecks are prevalent, you can run into issues with funding. He wrote a book about that. That is one thing I want to ask him about later and have folks get access to that. It's a very good book. Hugh: We did a teaser about the book. We haven't told anybody about it yet. John, before the technology devil came in here and ate up your feed, I was talking about the misconception of the word “profit” with nonprofits, and how boards have gotten into a negative groove. Do you want to talk about that a minute? Then I will hand it over to Russell, who is the one with the real tough questions. John: Great. Yeah. If I understand you, the question is profit versus nonprofit? It's interesting. Russell did this for a long time. There really is no difference. If there is no money, there is no mission. We have to generate enough profit, retained earnings, income, whatever you want to call it, so we can redistribute it. I often encounter both in the corporate world from healthcare providers who were nonprofit, and nonprofits I have volunteered with over the years, that money is not the big thing. It's all about service. It's all about serving the customer, the patients, our clientele. If you can't keep the lights on, you can't deliver any service. I feel like I'm rambling a bit. This is where my wholeheartedness comes from. If you look at the way businesses are being structured today, more and more of them are being structured to deliver a different kind of value than just the bottom line. There are benefit corporations. There are LLCs that are for-profits embedded within nonprofits. There is a whole host of ways we can use our work, I have air quotes up there, to do good in the world. I think it was Kahlil Gibran who said, “Work is love made visible.” Regardless of what we're doing, we should be able to bring love into the world, or wholeheartedness, even at a profit. Hugh: We generate income because we generate value. Russell has helpful observations and questions. I'm going to park for a minute and let him participate. Thank you, Russ for being here. I know it was a challenge getting on today. Russell: Thanks. It's good to be here. I know John is an amazing person. I am glad I met you. One of the things that you and I talked about over coffee was the notion of value, and how that is being redefined today. Folks that are running businesses to make a profit often talk in terms of value. It seems to be a word that nonprofit leaders haven't wrapped their arms around yet. Even if they do, some of the team may not be aware of what exactly is value. How do you ramp up those discussions when you are talking to nonprofit organizations in terms of speaking to value and what that means to the different audiences they serve? John: What a great question. Nonprofits deliver such value. Whether it's providing a roof over our heads, food and shelter. They look and say, “That's what we are giving to our clientele, people who need that value.” They're also delivering value to the donors and people who are fundraisers. I met with a young man who moved here from D.C. His whole background is in philanthropy. If I'm a donor, the example I was thinking through on this is do you remember Sally Struthers and the Feed the Children campaign from years ago? She would come on TV and see all these images of hungry children. We would make a donation. We got a letter from that child. We are in relationship to that child. Now there is this warm, fuzzy feeling of, I, as a donor, am getting real value from that donation in my heart. What happens for a lot of us today is we don't think about how we're delivering value to all of our stakeholders, be they fundraisers, donors, clientele, you have different kinds of value to each one of them. For a donor, one of the big questions donors all have is, “If I give you money, will it go to the end user, or will it go to administrative costs?” There are a whole host of people who are doing valuations and rankings around that. How can I pluck John's heartstring? How can I pluck Russell's heartstrings? A friend of mine had a daughter who came into the world with a lot of physical challenges. In Children's Hospital for years. Her mom was in and out. If I deliver a message to her that talks about children and supporting people while they are waiting for a child to come out of the hospital, that is delivering value to me because it sings and resonates with me. Does that make sense? Russell: That's the trick. That's the challenge a lot of for-purpose enterprises (as we prefer to call them, a term given to us by one of our guests). That is the challenge. You have multiple audiences. Value is not only something that has to be quantified in material terms. It's different for every audience. The way that we relate to each other is through stories. People are discovering that. The big question is what is your story? Different people have different metrics, depending on their perspective. How important is it to have ways to measure what is valuable? How do you help nonprofits navigate that when they have these multiple audiences? How do you help them navigate figuring out what the message is for each audience? John: Really good question. When I share measurements, I think to my friend Annette, who is a good evaluator, who does research to quantify numbers and cents. When you think about a sentence or a paragraph or a story, how do you measure the ROI? What is the equation? Actually, there is a lady by the name of Nancy Duarte, who has mapped a really good storyteller. She took Martin Luther King's “I Had a Dream” speech, and mapped the structure of the speech with its peaks and valleys to lead to the enrollment of the audience in his message. To answer your question, sometimes the impact is emotion. Even though we are driven by our spreadsheets in business, those are only to back up the emotional decisions we have already made. Working with a nonprofit, when we think about the donor, we have to think about what emotions we touch on. If I am talking to a philanthropist or a fund, like The Knight Foundation, what is the emotion or feeling I want them to feel about what they're going to do for us? When I am trying to pull people off the streets as clients into my organization, how do I want them to feel? What I find most of us do is we run, run, run. And we don't stop to think about the value. It's not always what we think it is. What I counsel my clients on is it's not putting food in someone's hands. It's answering a question about the concern of who is giving them the food. I'll give you an example. Most painting contractors think they are hired to paint the house. They will tell the consumer, “We do great painting.” The reality is, the consumer is thinking, I'd like to have my house painted, but how do I know that painter will be on time, done on time, and won't leave a mess? We have to answer the questions behind the question to call those, whether it's a donor, a fundraiser, the clientele, or the public because the public can be very strong advocates for our for-purpose organizations. Great word choice by the way. I'm bouncing a bit, but that changes the whole framework of how you think about the organization. There is the nonprofit and the for-purpose. There is a withdrawal and an engagement. Good choice of words there. Russell: I'd like to go back to the statement of people looking at how you spend the money. I think we have seen some perception problems with the structure of an organization. A lot of people want to write checks for programs, but they don't necessarily want to pay the nonprofit's rent. You have to have a structure to deliver a program. But if you are running the organization delivering the programs, you have to be efficient. You have to be good stewards of the resources entrusted to you. Talk about some of the things you do when working with organizations of any stature to navigate that. John: When you say stewardship, are you talking about attracting money? Are you talking about managing expenses? Russell: Taking care of the money entrusted to you. Making the best use of it and maximizing value with it. Taking good care of it. John: A great question. Years and years ago, this will surprise you. I ran into a nonprofit collection agency. This was an organization embedded within another organization. Their money was to support the organization they were embedded in. For them, they could have really good expenses and really nice cars and really great lifestyles, but a lot of that wasn't coming back to what was originally meant for. I contrast that with the man who I was telling you about earlier who sits on the board of a nonprofit. Someone came in and said, “We are getting ready to do our new benefits. We want to have a nine-month maternity leave. We want to have 35 days of PTO.” He said, “Wait a minute. How can we do that? That is stealing from our organization and our constituents.” The easy answer for you is the mindset. What are we really here to do? Are we here to serve, or are we here to take? My experience is the more we deliver into the world, the more we give, the more we receive in return without having to strive for that. The way I work with most of my customers is to help them attract the stakeholders they need. What prompted our conversation was this book, The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough. What that is about is to get leads. How do I get people who are interested in coming to my organization, whether it's a client or a donor? We will often think, They will find us. It's not who you know; it's who knows you. We have to craft a message that resonates with those people. Hugh: John, hold that book up again. Remember my age and mental condition. Tell us about the book, John. John: It's called The 45 Minute Business Breakthrough. It's how to find revenue for your business in 45 minutes. Hugh: 45 minutes? John: Yes. Hugh: What takes so long? That's pretty fast. That got my attention. John: It's simple. Think about the real estate agent who tells you, “I sell real estate, commercial and residential, up and down the range.” Here in Denver, there are 20,000 real estate agents. Contrast that to the one who says, “I help millennials find the loft of their dreams in downtown Denver.” Even though I am not a millennial, I am far past the millennial stage, I will remember that message. When I hear someone say they are looking for a loft, I can make the hook. If you ask yourself, What would that do for my business? You can find money really fast. When you talk about how do I make an offer that is so compelling that I can come into relationship with you? Maybe it's I sign up for your newsletter. I hear stories about the organization how you are changing lives. When it comes time to write a check, I am more likely to write a check. There is an organization I do some work with here called Goodwill to Work. I get to work with high school students as they are preparing to enter the work force: mock interviews, reviewing portfolios, reviewing resumes. It gives me great faith in the future of ourselves. When they come looking for money, I am more open to that because I am invested in that. It's helping the business owner, to answer your question, look at the five areas that drive 80% of their growth. It's leads, how to turn leads into customers, how to create an offer that gives more value so they are willing to spend more money with me, and quit discounting. You have to sell more of the product to get the same. Hugh: There is a correlation here. We talk about selling to churches. Churches say, “We don't sell.” Then what is evangelism? I talk to generic nonprofits about business models. No, we are a nonprofit. People are supposed to give everything. That does not mean you can beat up your employees. That is why the burnout rate is about 50% with executive directors. You are moving into the mindset. It's a social entrepreneurial mindset. You talked about businesses having a triple bottom line. I think nonprofits should have multiple bottom lines. One of them should be retained earnings. Russell, why don't you weigh in on this? You used to work for an agency who had three letters. It's about where the money goes. We need another number for profit, and we need another way to look at accounting so overhead is really clear. Overhead goes to the people we serve. The words for profit are uncomfortable. Russell: When people in our circles call it “surplus,” but the bottom line is you have to bring in more than you push out. If you bring in more than you push out, you become what is known as sustainable. Operating with a surplus is important because you have to be prepared for all types of contingencies. There are things that happen. Mother Nature, for example. You have fires, floods, hurricanes, different events that impact different businesses that impact the nonprofits on the ground as well. It's important to operate at that surplus. When it comes to overhead, which is everything that isn't directly poured into the services, people think of that in terms of costs versus an investment. If it's an investment, you get a good return on that. That means the management is taking care of the assets. They are providing superior service. They are effective and efficient at keeping costs under control. But you still have that structure there so you can go out and create more impact, as it were. The impact is in the eyes and ears of the beholders. I know John has heard this multiple times. John, you deal with it in for-profits and nonprofits when it comes to talking about impact. What is your experience with that word? Do you find that it is overused or misused? How do you help people frame that in a way that is balanced? John: I play with the word “balance.” If there is a balance, we are going to disrupt it. It's more how do we create harmony around it? Impact is in the eyes of the beholder. Again, it's about- I find this with myself often. I get up, sit down at my desk, and start working. When I get done, I have done a lot, and think about what impact I actually have. The first step is to slow down. As Stephen Covey said, “What is the end in mind?” What impact do I want to have? One client recently, the impact she wanted to have was more visibility in her organization. If that's what I want to have, if that's my end in mind, how do I have to make you feel to get that visibility? Now that I know those two questions, I can ask myself, “Who do I have to be to bring it?” In terms of messaging, what do I want them to experience? A great example. I had a customer the other day tell me. We often think about painting as putting a coating on the wall. For this company, it is a customer experience. The experience that you and I as a homeowner experience for you painting. In the case of the Rocky Mountain Microfinance Institute, what impact do they have on their small business owners as they compete in a 12-week boot camp for a microloan? The answer is they get 95% of their loans are repaid. Those companies are still in business years later. Every time I go, there is someone who would not have gotten a job in the corporate world who has created a successful business because they went through a 12-week boot camp to learn basic kinds of things. The impact is how are they feeling? What are the net results? It's all of that. Does that answer your question? Russell: That does, yes. For anybody who is out there making a difference, there are all these measures. How people measure things is critical. It's getting out there, being of service, and doing that better than others efficiently and effectively as you possibly can. There are a lot of tools that leaders need to have in order to drive value, in order to grow as an organization. What are the most basic tools that you give your clients when you start working with them initially? Are there some key basics that are missing in the large quantity? Or some things that leaders overlook? In that sense, what are some of the things that you find nonprofit leaders overlook more frequently than not?   John: Great question. I think there are two big opportunities, whatever your work is. The first one is really getting clear and planting your flag on who you serve. Being clear that we are in this to serve children, sick children, healthy children, starving children, whatever the service is. And then nobody else. We all think we can serve everybody. We want to serve all sorts of people. Until we plant the flag and say this is who we serve, how we serve, and why we serve, we are noise. Russell, you know this because you're in Denver. There are 11,000 nonprofits in the Denver/Boulder community. Many of them are duplicating services. It's noise in the marketplace. How do they stand out? Planting the flag, being clear, and saying, “I am for the 10% that this resonates with.” Because then they will find us. We will get some of the other people who will be in that outer circle who will be attracted to us. We have to call our tribe to us. From the business standpoint, that is the biggest thing. I get this. I want to serve everybody, too. We have to get clear on who we serve, how we serve, and why we serve. Russell: The idea of niching down and picking a category is frightening for both business owners and nonprofit leaders. I know I've had movement within my own business of who do you serve, will there be scarcity. I think scarcity thinking is terrible for the mindset of an entrepreneur regardless of the tax status of the organization he/she runs. How do you have that conversation with people who may be apprehensive about the idea of niching down and being more focused and targeted? John: It's history. It's experience. I'm working with a company right now. They have been doing Groupons to call in their clientele. I finally got him to stop that because what he would get is people coming in looking for the discount all the time, but they weren't coming back to purchase more. He recognized that is not the clientele he wants to serve. He wants to serve the people who really care about what he delivers. When he gets one of them, they don't question his cost. They know he can trust him, he will deliver the service, and they will walk away with value. You have to ask people to step out on faith and try it. I have yet to have someone who tries it fail at it. I just had this conversation with a lady at a digital marketing firm this morning. She said, “Sometimes I just have to have faith. I don't have to worry about this deal or that donor or that foundation. I have to have faith that if I serve, I will be rewarded. It took me until I was in my forties to realize that my middle name is Faith. Faith plays a role in all of this.” Hugh: It does. John, you talked earlier about going to the bottom for the price. We tend to race to the bottom because we think we have to have the lowest price to attract people. There is a similar model with nonprofits. We have this money shadow. We don't want to talk about money, and we don't want to ask for money. It's reframing the whole conversation about what you said earlier about value. What we're talking about is value. Money is an exchange. We have to pay the rent. We have to pay the salaries of those good people we employ. Talk about this thing with money. Do you see what I'm talking about? Is there a similarity with entrepreneurs looking at everyone else and pricing themselves under it? That's not a good way to do it. Nonprofits are asking for too little money. John: I lost your audio there. It's a good question. What I find- I grew up in sales. I'm afraid to ask for more because I was afraid I was going to hear no. As a nonprofit, if I'm asking for donations, I don't want to hear no. Nobody wants to hear no because they are afraid of being outcast. I wrote this on a blog post not too recently. I came to a realization. I was on my way to a meeting with someone to give a presentation, and I had this voice in my head say, “Who are you? Who do you think you are?” I was in the presentation watching the audience, and I saw a couple of people on their phones. “Oh my God. They're not paying attention to me. I've lost them.” I got some of the highest marks I've ever had for a delivery. I have come to the conclusion that I want to have that voice say, “Who are you? This is not your comfort zone.” on my shoulder because I know I'm doing the work that will deliver value to my organization. I think to get to your question of how we get past that fear of asking for money or undervaluing ourselves, we step out of our comfort zone and realize the value that we bring. I have yet to have an experience where I have said, “I can step into this, even though I don't know where it's going to go.” that hasn't delivered value. All too often, we think if we don't know exactly how it's going to happen, we don't want to step into it because we are afraid it might go wrong. Russell: Life begins outside of the comfort zone. John: It really does. I was teaching a class one time. It was very dependent on a certain program running just the right way. About 20% of the class got an update from Microsoft that eliminated that functionality. What am I going to do? We'll get to it. We'll talk about it. Stay away from me. Get feedback from my tech team. Keep teaching. It was some of the highest reviews I'd ever gotten. They've asked me back several times. I want to create something going wrong in the presentation just so that there is that kind of result. When we get out of our comfort zone and into that place where it's not working exactly right, we become more present. We become more focused on what we want to deliver to our audience, whether it's one or many. One of the things I wanted to come back to, you asked me earlier about one of the biggest things that for-purpose or for-profits or anybody struggles with. I shared with you that niching idea. The other piece is more personal. It's self-accountability. We talked earlier about self-leadership. Many of us are more than willing to hold anybody accountable for what they are supposed to do. We have meetings around it. We have metrics to race for it. But the thing that we're not accountable to is our own self. The #1 appointment we break on our calendar is the one we set with ourselves. I might sit down and say, I need to plan my budget for next quarter. But if the phone rings, I will pick up the phone instead of working on that budget. Or I might decide I want to lose ten pounds. I will quit eating French fries and start running. But then it snows. When we don't hold ourselves accountable, we can't hold other people accountable. When we start breaking promises to ourselves, we start disbelieving ourselves when we say we can get something done. So part of it is keeping promises to ourselves. Russell: It's interesting that people make commitments to others they won't make to themselves. I think that is a human nature thing. That plays into what's best. There are a number of people who talk about self-care and taking care of yourself. One of the things about leader burnout is people drive themselves far too much and don't necessarily take care of themselves. When you come across executives you're working with, a lot of times they are burned out, what is the first thing you tell them as far as taking care of themselves? How do you go about finding out if that's the problem they do have?   John: It's about creating psychological safety. We can do this in our own organizations and families. We want to create safety so that people can be and bring their whole self into the conversation. I am a child of the ‘80s. Greed is good. We have to put up a front. If you remember the shoulder pads from back then, we literally put our armor on. But the reality is when we can bring our whole self into a conversation, we don't have to carry the stress of trying to be someone we're not. The first part is bringing psychological safety. People will begin to open up and tell us what is really wrong in our lives. I tell people when they are working with me, “There is a lot to do, but you have to schedule two hours a week for you to sit back and think about, “What do I want to do this week? What happened last week? What did I get done? Celebrate! What did I not get done? What will I do to move that forward?” All too often, we run from task to task to task to task. We don't slow down to shift our state to move into the next meeting. I work with a lot of people who have nine meetings a day. That's incredible. When do you get your work done? I see three. Hugh: We're coming to the last minutes of our interview. I want to give you a few minutes to talk about one of the most important topics: communication. In 32 years of working with organizations, there has never been an organization who brought it up as one of the top topics. In a quick overview, I want you to talk about why that is significant in the work that you do. Then I will have a sponsor message before giving it back to you for a closing thought. Then Russell will end this interview. John, there are a lot of good sound bites, I must say. John, what is missing in communication? What do we need to do to make it better? John: There are four things we need for effective communication. One is clarity. If we are not clear with our message, I ran across this the other night. It's from Yo-Yo Ma. If we don't have clarity of message, we are just noise. What happens all too often is I tell you I'm looking for a dog. You will tell me, “You should get a Labrador.” Russell will tell me that I need a terrier. Someone else will tell me a shepherd. I am allergic to most dogs, and my wife doesn't want anything over 20 pounds. If I had been clear in what I was looking for, you would be clear in your response. Slowing down to get clear. Two is respect. Every organization you and I work with has respect in their manual, their mission statement, or their vision statement. Yet 94% of the workforce reports having uncivil behavior in the last year. 54% in the last month. This comes from Harvard Business Review. What does disrespect look like? It might not be holding the door open. It might be perceived disrespect. But what we have to think about how do we create psychological safety? Even if you are a high performer, if you are not treating people right, we need to help you move to a place where your humor is appreciated. Candor. Everyone wants more candor. If I were to show you my slide, there would be a burning plane behind me because NASA did research that said commercial airline pilots in a simulator that gave them a crisis, there were three outcomes. One, the captain took control of the plane and crashed it. Two, the captain said, “Crew, I need some help.” Everyone contributed, shared information, and worked together. The plane landed safely. The third one was the interesting one. The captain said, “Help me!” The crew said, “You got this.” They crashed almost as often as the first one. Why? Because the captain created an environment where candor was not appreciated. What happens in our organizations if we are not open to candor? What are we not learning about? The last piece is attention. What are we focused on? How many times have you told your child, “Don't spill the milk?” What happened? Hugh: Spill the milk. John: When we tell people, “Stop complaining. Stop smoking. Stop fighting.” they don't hear stop. The brain doesn't hear stop. Let's focus on what we want. Those four things are what we need for good communication. Hugh: Don't be late to the meeting. Those four are clarity of message- John: Clarity, respect, candor, attention. Hugh: John, a lot of good sound bites. You are so well-read. I love this thing about the clarity of the dog. A guy goes up to an intersection in Denver to a guy with a dog and says, “Does your dog bite?” The guy says, “No.” He reaches down to pet the dog, and the dog takes a big chunk out of his arm. He said to the guy, “I thought you said your dog doesn't bite.” The guy says, “That's not my dog.” It's an old joke, but it's a good example of what you're talking about. We are assuming that's his dog because it's standing next to him. We talk about how leaders set up problems. Then we make them worse. This candor and autocratic leadership is not what we do. Thank you for this. *Sponsor message from Wordsprint* Before Russell closes out this really helpful interview, what thought do you want to leave with people today? John: I thought in preparation for this. I talked to a couple of colleagues who are active in the nonprofit community. What they shared with me is one of the big stressors for nonprofits is resiliency. They are overstressed, under-resourced, struggling against how do we deliver value to our constituents? I thought what would be helpful to them is to acknowledge the stress is there. Leaders paper over the stress or frustration. Until we admit there is something there, we can't deal with it. If we don't admit it, our team is looking to us and thinking there is something you're not telling us. So acknowledge it. Have a little bit of grace. We are all doing the best we can. Everybody is doing something for their own reasons. Let's get clear about what's going on. Be accountable to yourself and to others. When everybody is doing what they are supposed to do, and I don't have to pick up after you and you don't have to pick up after me, there is less stress in the organization. Clarity of values, beliefs, and behaviors. Making sure we all agree what we want to do to serve our organization and our constituents. Appreciation of ourselves and others. We go from day to day to day, from win to win to win, and we don't stop and celebrate. Celebrate the things you have done well. This has been a lot of fun. Russell: Thank you very much, John. I appreciate that. It's been an enlightening conversation. Always remember that honesty without compassion is brutality. How we talk to each other and work with each other is critical inside so we can serve the audiences we can serve. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

January 14, 2019 - We've Got Your Phonetaps courtesy of Mr. Luther Luffeigh! First, "@John" Then, "Abasar El Paso". First, Big calls and blames his social media guru for getting Big’s twitter hacked. Then, Luther calls to book a train to El Paso but of course can’t be understood, so three people get on the line and try to figure out what language he is speaking. Sheck Wes is in the Neighborhood to discuss his inspiration behind Mo Bamba and the Neighborhood asks the ladies what they don't want in their partners, plus Natalia with the News, #Hip Hop and What's Trending! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://news.iheart.com/podcast-advertisers

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about something that is related to making money or the stock market or something like that, because you know, apparently everyone is in the stock market.John: Everyone and their mother in fact. So we are gonna look at some idioms...starting off with taking a look at idioms that have specifically to do with stock. So to put stock in something- if you put stock in something, you have a high opinion of that person or of that thing. For example, we’ll take the opposite approach, I don’t think that CNN is a credible news source. I don’t put much stock into their news reports.Xiaohua: 当你要买一家公司的股票肯定说明你非常信任这家公司，所以put stock in something就是“信任，看重”的意思。John: Yeah, or you know, Xiaohua she always tells the truth, so when she gives me a juicy rumor, I put a lot of stock in it.Xiaohua: Thank you, but I never do that. John: Then to take stock- so to take an assessment or appraisal, as in we have to take stock of our finances before we can start a new project, or the career counselor advised Mark to take stock before changing his plans.Xiaohua: take stock本来是商业用语，意思是“盘货”，现在也可以用作“梳理”或者“评估”的意思。So if you take stock of something, you want to evaluate something.John: Exactly. And laughing stock- so a person or thing that is regarded as very foolish or ridiculous. You know, unfortunately, many of the Chinese football teams have become the laughing stock of the country. Xiaohua: No one wants to be a laughing stock. 因为laughing stock是“笑柄”的意思。John: Then lock, stock and barrel- an expression that means “everything”. So if someone buys a company lock, stock and barrel, they buy everything to do with the company. Also, there is a very famous movie by Guy Ritchie, if you remember very famous for the movie Snatch, the movie right before that that he wrote and directed was called Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels.Xiaohua: Yeah, that’s right. Lock, stock and barrel-锁，存货，还有桶，加起来的意思就是“所有的东西”。John: Then my two cents- basically saying that you are going to give your opinion, so you can say “I’m going to give you my two cents.” or “my two cents is that you should do something.”. You can also say, it’s a bit of...not so much an idiom, but a term or a phrase that some people like to use sometimes. When they are giving advice when it is not asked for, so you can say “I’m going to give you advice worth a nickel for free.”. Xiaohua: my two cents-我的两分钱，就是说我的意见，我的拙见的意思。你想给对方意见，但是对方可能并没有想要听取你的意见，所以你就会说my two cents，意思是说我的一点点浅见。John: And then ballpark figure- so basically it is an approximate number or a rough estimate of the cost of something. I don’t know how much exactly that is going to cost, but a ballpark figure would be around a hundred thousand dollars. Xiaohua: ballpark figure就是大约的数字。John: Cash cow- so a product or service which is a regular source of income for a company and is easy to maintain. His latest invention turned out to be a real cash cow.Xiaohua:现金牛，这个意思有点像是摇钱树，比如说一个公司里最赚钱的那块业务就是这个公司的cash cow。John: And if you are hard up, you have very little money. We were so hard up that we had to sleep in the car.Xiaohua: 下面这几个词跟“穷”都有关系。Hard up 就是经济情况非常不好。John: And in order to keep the wolf from the door, you need to have enough money to buy food and other essentials. My grandparents barely earned enough money to keep the wolf from the door.Xiaohua: keep the wolf from the door实际上是讲维持最基本的温饱线的意思。John: Yeah, to keep your head above water means to try to survive by staying out of debt or by trying to stay in business...try to sustain whatever activity you are doing. So business has been really slow, but we’ve managed to keep our head above water.Xiaohua: keep your head above water可不是讲不要被淹死，其实它是在讲不要负债，要保持经营状况的良好。John: Yeah, then a license to print money- so basically something that enables people to make a lot of money without very much efforts. So the contract to supply computers to school was a license to print money.Xiaohua: 讲完了穷，下面该讲富了。License to print money-给了你印钱的执照,基本上就是说你有无数的赚钱的好机会。John: Then hand over fist- basically when we are talking about money, it just means to be able to make a lot of money very, very quickly and very, very easily. So, you now, government contracts allow companies to make money hand over fist.Xiaohua: hand over fist这个短语当用在讲赚钱的时候呢，就是说赚钱赚得盆满钵满，忙不过来了。And we hope everybody will be making money hand over fist in the stock market. And that’s all we have for the edition of Word of the Week, here on Roundtable.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. John: And so this week we’re going to be looking at how to talk about hitting people. We don’t suggest you do hit people, but if you want to talk about hitting people in English, well, we’ll give you some words and phrases. So there is bang, to hit or to punch. So if he keeps saying that, watch me walk over and bang him. Then there is beam, to hit in the head, so Tony just beamed me in the head with a pencil. That’s usually when you’re throwing something, and you get beamed. And then there is to brain, and that’s to hit someone in the head quite hard. Xiaohua: 英语中描述怎样打人的词汇还真的不少。我们就一个一个看过来。Bang, beam, 和brain都差不多，但有细微的区别。Bang是撞，beam是打头，而beam是狠狠揍某人的头。John: Then there is to bust, to punch or hit. So if you don’t shut up, I’m going to bust you in the mouth. And then a variation on that is bust on. The bouncers busted on some drunk guy last night. And then clock. Clock is usually to punch someone in the face. Xiaohua: Bust本身就有打破的意思。To bust somebody就是揍某一个人的意思，bust on 也有同样的意思。而clock就是揍脸。John: And then crack, so hit or punch. Cream means to beat up or to hit extremely hard. Xiaohua really made me angry the other day so I just really had to cream her. Xiaohua: I don’t think you’d have the guts, though. Anyway, cream听上去像是个好词，但也可以用作狠狠打的意思。John: Then fist of fives. So if you don’t shut up, I’ll give you a fist of fives. Get banked on. He really pissed those guys off and so he got banked on. Give a thumper, a thumper is a hit, a very strong hit, and so to give a thumper is to strike someone very hard. Xiaohua: Fist of fives就不用解释了。Get banked on挺有意思的。因为Bank on somebody不是有trust someone的意思吗，但是when you get banked on, you’re basically punched. John: And then jack. He got jacked in the face. Then knock out, you see this a lot in boxing. So you hit someone so hard, usually in the face or in the head, that they lose consciousness. We were just playing around and I accidentally knocked him out.Xiaohua: Knock out someone就是把某个人击昏。John: And then knuckle sandwich, very similar to fist of fives, but it’s usually to the face or to the mouth area, because you give them a sandwich and you usually eat sandwiches. Xiaohua: OK. 请别人吃拳头做成的三明治吗？Anyway，就是对脸一拳。John: And then to nail is to hit forcefully with a blunt object. He got nailed in the face with the football. Or I nailed him with the basketball. Xiaohua: Be nailed是被重物砸到。John: And then to pop, to hit someone on the back of the head with the flat of one's hand. It’s kind of like a slap, but to the back of the head, usually used to get a person's attention or to assert one's authority rather than to inflict harm. So it’s really not meant to hurt someone, but you pop someone in the back of their head in order to get their attention, right?Xiaohua: Pop是扇后脑勺，学生时代的你们如果不认真听讲的话经常会被老师pop。John: Right? And then to smack, that’s basically a type of slap. Sock is another type of hit, and last but not least, sucker punch, it’s basically to attack sneakily. So a sucker punch is when someone is totally not expecting it, the fight hasn’t started yet, you’re not necessarily in an argument, but you just punch them in the face, without giving any kind of warning, that’s what we call a sucker punch. Xiaohua: Smack是扇，sock就是hit someone的意思，那sucker punch则是突袭。 OK, I have to admit there’re far more words describing hitting someone in English than in Chinese. John: There’re quite a few. And a lot of them have definitely specific history in our culture. I will also advice our listeners that some of these words aren’t only about hitting. A lot of it is slang usage. And so you may go up to someone and try to use this word, and they may not completely understand you given the context. For example, to nail, it can also be used to describe, in slang terms, sexual intercourse, or something like that. So on the one hand, these can be used depending on the context to talk about hitting or to be hit or something like that, but there’s also many other uses for some of these words. Xiaohua: 很多这些关于揍别人的词都是有上下文，在一定的场合中才可以用的，而很多词有多重的意思。所以如果用错了还是挺麻烦的。John: So just be prepared. There may be an instance where you don’t use it correctly. Xiaohua: And got smacked in the face. John: Yeah, don’t get popped. Xiaohua: Alright. That’s all we have for RoundTable’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to Word of the Week here in RoundTable. So the Tomb-sweeping Day is coming up and we feel that we should talk about something about ghost idioms and ways to describe that people are dead.John: Or people will die. So there’s a lot of idioms around ghosts and around death and scary things. They all kind of overlap in a sense, especially if we look at this first one *pale as a ghost or *pale as death*, basically just means very, very pale. So pale is not just white, right? Pale just means that your face is kind of being drained of blood, very little blood actually in your face. It’s the opposite is getting a red face when you’re embarrassed. Xiaohua: Right, 英语中有很多跟ghost 有关的短语，比如说 pale as a ghost就是形容一个人脸色煞白，pale是苍白，但当我们说pale as a ghost就是说脸色白的吓人。John: And then kind of in a similar vein, *white as a sheet and not so much ghost or death, *white as snow; *white as the driven snow* this is usually referring to skin color again, so the skin on your face is very, very white, very pale.Xiaohua: 嗯，white as a sheet，像床单一样白，也可以形容脸色煞白的意思。John: Then *ghost of a chance* usually means that you don’t even the slightest chance. For example, “She can&`&t do it. She doesn&`&t have a ghost of a chance. Or there is just a ghost of a chance that I&`&ll be there on time” meaning I’ll probably won’t make it.Xiaohua: *ghost of a chance*实际上是一点机会也没有，或者几乎没有任何机会的意思。John: And then *giving up the ghost* this is basically euphemism to die but it’s usually used to refer to machines so for example “My poor old car finally gave up the ghost.”Xiaohua: *give up the ghost* 是一种表示死亡委婉的说法。但是也可以用在一样东西坏了。John: Then to *ghost someone* basically just means to kill someone. So I really hope that after the show Xiaohua doesn’t decide to ghost me. Xiaohua: No, I’m not going to. John: Then there is *a ghost town*, basically a town that has been abandoned and is no longer inhabited. Usually what happens is there a boom town, a lot of people go there because there’s some type of natural resource, for example gold. And then once the natural resource is completely tapped out, everyone leaves, and becomes a ghost town.Xiaohua: 嗯， *ghost town* 鬼城，很多人在新闻里面可能听说过，因为房地产市场崩盘而造成了很多这样的鬼城，但是也可以指曾经繁华的都市，但是现在因为某种原因成为了废都。John: Looking at some *witch and skeleton* idioms, here’s a *witch-hunt* so to go on a witch-hunt is to try and find and punish or harass people with unpopular opinions. This came about a lot during the middle-age in Europe where was believed that there were witches so villagers and people in Europe will go on witch-hunt.Xiaohua: 在中世纪，欧洲有很多女性被当做女巫迫害致死，所以*witch-hunt*指的是政治迫害的意思，也就是说处罚异见分子的意思。John: Then a *skeleton in the cupboard* is something that might bring shame or embarrassment to a family or person if other people knew about it. So basically, it’s a secret that you don’t want anyone else to know because it’s very embarrassing or it’s going to damage your character.Xiaohua: 下面说说skeleton骷髅，*skeleton in the cupboard*是不可告人的秘密，通常是丑闻。John: Look at some euphemisms To Die, so *to go to a better place* *to die with one&`&s boots on* rather than die in bed, so die while you’re doing some type of activity. *To answer the final summons*and to *assume room temperature* which is quiet morbid.Xiaohua:嗯，再说说其他表示死亡的委婉说法，*to go to a better place*还有 *to die with one&`&s boots on*指的是在工作中或者说还好好的突然就死了，and then *assume room temperature* 恢复到了室温，that sounds like a bad joke.John: It’s a little rude.Xiaohua: You won’t want to use it on someone you like.John: Probably not.Xiaohua: And that’s all we have for RoundTable’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to RoundTable’s Word of the Week. Last week we talked about fruit-related idioms and this week we are getting on to vegetables.John: Which is actually kind of funny because we are going to talk about peas. This is the funny thing because technically peas are actually a fruit, but anyway let’s take a look at beans first. So to be “full of beans” is to talk nonsense, and to “not know beans” is to be ignorant or uninformed. To be “not worth a hill of beans” is to be worthless, and to “spill the beans” is to tell a secret. Xiaohua: 嗯，所以我们先从豆类植物开始，beans，“full of beans”就是胡说八道，“not know beans”连豆子都不知道，就是说这个人什么都不懂，“not worth a hill of beans”是一文不值的意思，而“to spill the beans”是倒豆子，就是把你的秘密说出来。John：Then there is to “dangle a carrot” before someone is to encourage them with an incentive, and the carrot in “carrot and stick” is an incentive or reward, with the stick being the punishment.Xiaohua: 跟carrot 有关的习语我想大家可能都比较熟悉了，“dangle a carrot”就是在某人面前吊着一根胡萝卜，指的是用物质奖励刺激别人做某事，而“carrot and stick”就是胡萝卜和大棒的意思。John: Then continue with carrots for a minute. Here, a“carrot top” is someone with red-haired.Xiaohua:“carrot top”可不是指上衣或帽子而是指红头发的人。John: Then someone “as cool as a cucumber” is very self-possessed under pressure, so cool and calm, cool as a cucumber.Xiaohua: “cool as a cucumber”指某个人很酷，非常冷静。John: Then to “pass an olive branch” is to make peaceful or reconciliatory overtures, so for example, maybe Xiaohua and I are having a really big argument and we are not talking to each other, we haven’t talked to each other in a while but then I can “pass her an olive branch”as a piece offering. Xiaohua: Whether I accept it, may be another issue.John: Exactly. Xiaohua: “pass an olive branch”也就是伸出橄榄枝的意思。正在打仗或吵架的双方，一方决定握手言和。John: And then looking at peas. As I said before, this is kind of funny because technically a pea is a fruit, so it should have been with last week’s but there you go. Now it’s with this week’s with the vegetables. And a “pea-brained” person is someone basically who is stupid.Xiaohua: 好吧，pea 也就是植物中豌豆属的这些果实实际上是fruit水果而不是蔬菜，当然啦，一般人都认为它们是蔬菜，所以我们也把它放到蔬菜类来讨论。“pea-brained”是指某个人很笨的意思。John：And then fog or something else can be very dense and can be described as being “as thick as pea soup.”Xiaohua: So, another question John, here the pea soup is the really thick kind, almost like a puree, right?John: Right.Xiaohua: Ok. 在浓雾很重的天气，我们就会说“as thick as the pea soup”。John: And to be “like two peas in a pod” is to be very close with or similar to someone else.Xiaohua: 当两个人关系很近，very tight 的时候我们就会说，“like two peas in a pod”好像豌豆荚里面的两颗豌豆似的。John: Exactly. And to be “in a pickle” is to be in some sort of complicated situations, for example, “Companies find themselves in a pickle when their markets change.”Xiaohua: pickle是泡菜，“in a pickle”是遇到麻烦处于困境的意思。John: And something that is “small potatoes” is insignificant and “salad days” refers to the youthful period of one’s life.Xiaohua: “small potatoes”是小人物，“big potatoes”就是大人物的意思。And “salad days” 是指当我们年轻的时候。John: And looking at perhaps a bit of a larger category here, sometimes in English colors can be described using a fruit and vegetable so for example if someone is “beet red”, like their face turn to beet red, it means they are very embarrassed. Perhaps even something is “cherry red”referring to something is the same color as a cherry.Xiaohua: 另外英文中很多表示颜色的词也用到了fruit and vegetable，比如说当你个人很窘，脸都涨红了的时候，你可以说他的脸像甜菜一样红， “beet red”。而另外“cherry red”是指樱桃红。John：Then“pear shaped”is exactly kind of interesting because this is talking about the actual shape of pear, but then something goes “pear shaped”which actually means that something goes wrong.Xiaohua: “Pear-shaped”就是梨形，但pear-shaped这个词也有引伸义，就是说什么事情出错了。And that’s it for this edition of Word of the Week on Roundtable.

Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to RoundTable's Word of the Week. This week we are talking about some fruit-related idioms.John: That's right. Today we are going to be looking at， in particular apples. So I think everyone knows about apples. Apples they come in so many different varieties. And for some reason in English, there are so many different idioms and sayings around apples.Xiaohua: 苹果好像在英美文化中有非常重要的文化属性，所以有很多的idiom短语是跟苹果有关的。John: That's right, so we're going to take a look at a few here. So starting off, “as American as apple pie”, basically saying that apple pie is the epitome of being American, and so if you’re as American is apple pie, then you’re just very American.Xiaohua:苹果馅饼是非常具有美国特色的一种食品，as American as apple pie 就是说像苹果馅饼一样极具美国特色。John: Yeah, so baseball, jeans, hamburgers, the American flag, fireworks on fourth of July, things like that.Xiaohua: Disney, something like that.John: Yes, as American as apple pie. And the second one, you can compare “apples and oranges”. This is actually one of my favorite because what happens a lot of times that people like to make comparisons between what seem like are similar things. Apple and orange are both fruits, but if you look at them, it's impossible to compare them because they are so different. Xiaohua: 当你在指出别人逻辑上的错误时你可以用这个短语comparing apples and oranges, 就是把完全不一样的东西放在一起比较。John: Right. There's “apple of someone’s eye”, so a favorite or a well-like person. So for example, my children are the apple of my eye.Xiaohua: So for anyone who has heard the song "you're the apple of my eye", right?John: I have no idea what that is.Xiaohua: What? Are you an American?John:I am, but not as American as apple pie.Xiaohua: Yeah, that's what I'm going to say. 所以apple of one's eye 就是极为珍视的人，非常珍爱的人。 John: Then “the apple never falls far from the tree”, so a person’s personality traits are close to those of the person’s parents. This can be good and bad, in fact. And usually the way I remember to hearing it is in a negative context. You know his parents or her parents, they won't very nice people. The apple really falls far from the tree.Xiaohua: I see. 这有点像中文里的有其父必有其子，“苹果落地离树不远”也是这个意思，这个短语有褒义也有贬义，但这里好像贬义的应用居多。John: Then “as sure as God made little green apples” basically just means that you are very certain. So I'm sure this, as sure as God made little green apples.Xiaohua:当你对一件事情确认无疑毫无疑问的时候你就可以说as sure as God made little green apples.John: Then to be a “bad apple” or a “rotten apple” is to be a bad person. You can also say that “one bad (or rotten) apple can spoil the whole bunch (or barrel)” implies that one flawed person can basically undermine an effort or a group, and you can be “rotten to the core” to be thoroughly bad or worthless.Xiaohua: bad apple 就是坏家伙, rotten apple也是这个意思。而one bad apple spoils whole bunch有点像中文里的一粒老鼠屎坏了一锅粥的意思，或者说害群之马，而 rotten to the core就是说这个家伙坏透了。John: Then there is “How do you like them apples?” It’s kind of a rhetorical question not actually looking for an answer. Usually it can be neutral or taunting just kind of you take a look at the situation and for example, you’ve created a situation where the other person’s going to like it and you're kind of poking at them and say "Well, how do you like them apples?"Xiaohua: “How do you like them apples?”就好像是用一点揶揄的口气问或者反问，这儿事儿你怎么看？这回你怎么看？John：Yeah, perhaps a good example might be you know, when you are kid, and you have some really good food you brought from home, and one of your friends wants that food, you say no because you want to eat it all. And then the next day, they bring food that you want to eat from their homes and they say no and also say how do you like them apples? Basically, just kind of throwing it in your face, that you did something bad and they did something bad.Xiaohua: I see.John: Then you can “polish (one’s) apple” is to flatter someone and then a flatterer is an “apple polisher.”Xiaohua: "Polish one's apple"就是拍某人的马屁，而apple polisher 则是阿谀奉承的人。John: Like for example, I can polish Xiaohua's apple. You know Xiaohua, that scarf is just so lovely today.Xiaohua: It doesn't work on me, anyway.John: Anyway, last but not least “upset the apple cart” is to ruin plans.Xiaohua: 嗯，把苹果车给弄翻了，就是说把事情搞砸了的意思。And that's all we have for this week's Word of the Week.

Heyang: Hello and welcome to RoundTable’s Word of the Week.John: This week we are looking at some words and phrases related to love because this weekend you may or may not know is White Valentine’s Day. As an American, I had no idea this existed until I came to China.Heyang: White Valentine’s Day gives girls particularly a chance to reciprocate the love and gestures that the guys have expressed during Valentine’s Day a month ago, so I think it’s quite a special day, plus it’s just another day to celebrate love.John: Let’s take a look at some phrases first. “To have a crush on (someone)” basically just means to have a very, very strong and irrational feelings for someone. Heyang: 表示爱慕之情。John： So, “He (she) has a crush on her (him).” So Heyang, who do you have a crush on?Heyang: Not you.John: And the next one “to feel an instant magnetism”. “He felt an instant magnetism when their eyes first met.” Right so, “magnets” are attractive to each other so “feel an magnetism” that means you are attracted to someone. Heyang: 就是你感觉到跟另外一个人好像有一种磁铁一般的吸引力。John: Then “to catch one’s eye”. “A nice-looking girl caught his eye.” It really means to pay attention to someone, become aware of someone.Heyang: 这个说的就是当一个人被另外一个人的外表所吸引住了目光。John: Yes, for example, I mean I think it’s a good point, it’s not necessarily only about people, it can be used with things as well, like for example “Heyang was in London going window-shopping and the purse caught her eye.”Heyang: 我们可以把范围扩大到物件，比如说你对物品有一种衷心喜爱的感觉，一下子也抓住了你的目光。John: And then there is “to hit it off”. “He was introduced to a pretty woman and they seem to hit it off immediately.” So basically is to get along with very well.Heyang: So it doesn’t really have any sexual connotations.John: No, not necessarily. Heyang: 这个说的就是两个人一见钟情，一下子就很合得来。John: Your can say that someone is hitting on someone, really that means he’s very interested in talking to her and maybe hopefully taking the relationship a little bit further. And the next one “to have the hots for (someone)” “When he met her, he had the hots for her.” Basically it means to be in lust or to be sexual attracted to someone.Heyang: 下面给大家介绍的这个词，就是对这个人爱慕不已，浑身发热。John: Whatever that means. Moving on. “To be attracted to each other”- “They were attracted to each other the moment their eyes met.” So we talked about this kind of implicitly you know about magnetism. “To be attracted to someone” is to be interested, to have feelings for them, to want to know them more.Heyang: But this is a pretty mild term.John: It’s very mild, yes.Heyang: 就是一个人对另外一个人产生了兴趣，是一个比较日常的说法。John: And a good example is you know Heyang is not attracted to me.Heyang: Yeah, that’s a very good example.John: That’s a very good example. Heyang: And stop using me as examples.John: No. And then once more we would take a look at “catch”, so for example “He is the man for whom she feels no attraction, catch or no catch.” “Catch” is basically someone who is highly desired, right? If you look at very objectively the pros and cons of this person, the person has very strong pros, not very many cons.Heyang: You can also say that “someone is a catch” meaning that person is a keeper. 就是说是一个理想的对象。John: Alright, so for some of you out there, it can be a little bit difficult to express how your feeling about your special someone, the loved one, closest to you on this White Valentine’s Day, so we give you some pointers some examples about open your mouth and say you care. So here’s one- “Words will never be enough to describe how much I love you and what you mean to me.”Heyang: 语言无法表达我对你的爱。Wow, that’s really strong. 我们现在给大家列举几个表白的大绝招，你可以记下来哟。John: Then “I couldn't even imagine having anything more than you. You're my best friend. You're everything to me. Obviously I don't want anything else. I just want you.”Heyang: That’s too much, even if we’re just like trying to act this out in this studio. 这就是充分地表达这个人是你唯一爱慕的人, 而且他还是你最好的朋友，你无法生活中没有他。John: Yeah, I think a lot of these you might actually find in movies but it can give you the idea the inspirations. Another one “So many times I thought I would never find someone to love me the way I needed to be loved. Then you came into my life and showed me what love really is.”Heyang: Wow, that’s kind of moving.John: It is.Heyang: 因为另外一个人而让你认识到爱情的形状，还是很感人的。John: And then some beginnings of sentences you can fill in on your own. “I love that you ...” and you say something about you know a characteristic a quality they have you really like. Or “I admire you for ...” again you can fill it in with things that you like about that person.Heyang: And also “You are the reason that I do something”, or you know, “Your are the reason that I woke up this morning.” or something.John: Or “Your are the inspiration, which is actually a great song.”Heyang: That’s all the time we have for this week’s RoundTable’s Word of the Week, you’ll see you next week.

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Xiaohua: Hello! And welcome to round table’s word of the week. This week we are talking about some banking related terms. Cause you know everyone needs the bank, but not everyone knows some of the terms are you use we you go to one. John: Yeah. It is true. If only we didn’t all need to use the bank, but as Xiaohua said we’ll be looking at, if you’re going abroad, and in particular if you’re going to the US and you have to deposit a check or maybe make a withdrawal, well, you wanna take a listen real quick. So first of all, if you go to a bank and you want to get money out of your account, you would go up to the teller, so it’s the person who is working behind the desk and say, “I would like to make a withdrawal.”Xiaohua: 当去银行要提款的时候就要说这句话了，另外teller就是银行的柜员。John: Then the teller might ask you how would you like the money. That basically means what types of notes and how many notes do you want for that withdrawal. Xiaohua: How would you like the money 可不是说你想要什么样的钱，而是说你想要什么面值的钞票。John: Right. It’s not do you want that in RMB or do you want that in US dollars. No. Do you want that in tens, fives or twenties, fifties (Xiaohua: Exactly.) or in one hundreds? But don’t ask for one hundreds, because very few stores actually accept that. And then looking at if you want to put money in, you can say I would like to make a deposit, so you are depositing money. You can also say, for example, maybe you have your check from work. And you can say to the teller I would like to deposit this check. Xiaohua: 需要存钱的话就说make a deposit。另外check支票也是在英美国家经常用的，所以你有可能想要把某一张支票存入帐户。这时候就说deposit this check. John: Yeah. Deposit this check. You can say, I’d like to, you know, you can deposit cash. You can deposit a check or whatever form of payment you have. Let’s say that you’ve never been to that bank before. And you want to open a bank account. Well, that’s very simple. You just say I would like to open a bank account. Xiaohua: 在银行开户就是open a bank account.John: And you know, of course, life is not as simple or as easy as we would like it to be. Sometimes maybe you’ll lose your ATM card or you’ll lose your credit card. So you can call their service number or you can go to the bank and you can report a lost credit card or a stolen credit card. Xiaohua: 如果丢了银行卡或者是信用卡要挂失的时候就要说report a lost credit card or a stolen credit card. John: And here’s a pretty important difference. In banks there are many different types of accounts, as I’m sure you are already aware. But we are gonna look at some of the more broader categories. So in general, there are two types of accounts. One is a checking account and the other is a savings account. A checking account is an account that has very very low interest that you are making payments into and making withdrawals on a regular basis. Whereas the savings account has a slightly higher interest rate, and it is expected that there will not be very much activity on that account. Xiaohua: 下面来介绍一下经常会用到的几种帐户的名字。 Checking account 是支票帐户又是活期帐户的意思。而savings account指的是储蓄帐户或者是有一定利息的定期存款账户。John: Now let’s move away from these dry and slightly boring words and phrases and take a look at some bank related idioms. First, on the books is “break the bank”. Buying a new pair of shoes at a discount price won’t break the bank. Xiaohua: 下面我们来看一下一些跟银行有关的习语吧。Break the bank 可不是什么抢劫银行的意思，而是说你的钱都花光了。John: Right. And then “bank on something”. Man I am so reliable, of course you can bank on me. Xiaohua: Bank on something是信赖某事，信赖某人。John: Then of course “you can take that to the bank” or take it to the bank. Our US president Barack Obama is very famous for saying that in one of his election campaign speeches, making a promise and he says you can take that to the bank. And of course, what I am telling you is the truth. You can take it to the bank. Xiaohua: Take it to the bank 是说我打包票我说的都是真的，你可以去求证的意思。据说奥巴马也非常喜欢用这个词。And that’s all we have for this week’s word of the week. John: Bye Bye.

XH: Hello, welcome to RoundTable’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about some commonly used workplace idioms, especially in the US, right?John: Yeah, most definitely in the US. It’s funny because when we are coming up with this list, at first I was like what exactly I’m looking for, and then I found a whole bunch, I said “oh, yeah, all right, these words and phrases are used all the day and time.” So we’re just going to go in a bit of random order, but keep up and you’re gotta learn a lot today. The first one is “green light”, basically it just means to approve a project.XH: green light就是允许为一件事情开绿灯。John: Right, “The director wants to green light your scented wallpaper idea.” The next one is one of my favorites, and you can use it outside the workplace. It’s called “brownie points”: to curry favor or get favor with someone, especially a boss. For example, “He earned brownie points by getting the boss’s coffee.” XH: Brownie是一种小甜点，但是brownie points的意思就是得到加分，印象分。John: Climb the ladder or climb the corporate ladder: to advance in one’s career through promotions. “Earning brownie points is one way to climb the ladder.” XH: Climb the ladder也经常用，指事业上进步、得到晋升的意思。John: “Team player” is pretty obvious: A committed employee who works well with other colleagues. “A team player often sees his proposals green lighted.” XH：Team player就是有团队精神的人。John: A “yes man”: an employee who always agrees with the boss. “He was a yes man, a team player and a chaser of brownie points.” XH：Yes man也很形象，指唯唯诺诺的人、应声虫。John: Then next one is “touch base”. Actually, my mother was a manager pretty much her entire career, and whenever I went to office with her, or she had to take a call at home, she would always use this phrase “touch base” or “touch base with someone”. It took me a long time to figure out. But basically, it’s just to confer about the progress of a project. So just to talk about the progress of what is currently being worked on. XH：Touch base就是碰个头，把事情进展知会给大家、互通情况。John: For example, “Let’s touch base tomorrow about the flea spray account.” Moving on to “crunch time”: When a project needs completed quickly. “It’s crunch time – we need to touch base as soon as possible.” XH：Crunch Time就是关键时刻。John: Right. And then “plug or plug a product”: To promote or market a product. “I was on TV this morning to plug our new flea spray.” And actually you know shen we have guests on Round Table, one of the reasons we have them on sometimes, is so they can plug something they are doing. XH：Plug有推广、销售的意思。John: Cash cow: The product that generates the most revenue for a company. “This scented wallpaper will be the company’s cash cow.” XH：会挤出钱来的奶牛，叫做Cash cow，中文就是摇钱树的意思。John: Then “On the ball”, “to stay on the ball” or “keep the ball rolling” is another one that is seen quite often outside the office, but is used especially in the office, meaning to ensure that a project is progressing efficiently and on time. So you have to “Keep the ball rolling on our green lighted projects.” XH：Keep the ball rolling就是要继续做某件事情，某个项目。John: Down to the wire: Said of something whose outcome or completion takes you to always the deadline. So you are working on a project and it will due on Monday at 9 o’clock. You are working at weekend. 8:55 on Monday you finish it. It called “come down to the wire”. XH: When something is down to the wire, that means 这件事情已经到了最后关头，最后期限了。John: “Glass ceiling” is used quite often when we talk about women and minorities, so the perceived struggle of women and minorities to achieve promotions. “She knew it would be hard to break through the glass ceiling and climb the corporate ladder.” XH: 玻璃屋顶，也就是隐形的升职障碍”。John: Pull the plug: To terminate a project or account. “He pulled the plug on the flea spray before we even got to plug it.” XH: Pull the plug是把插头拔掉，指终止业务或项目。John: Belt-tightening: To reduce expenses. “After we lost our cash cow, the HR department tightened its belt.”XH:就是“勒紧裤腰带”的意思。John: Work out the kinks: To revise, edit or otherwise improve a flawed product or service. “If you don’t work out the kinks, they’re going to pull the plug.” XH: Kinks有扭曲、打结的意思。Work out kinks指解决问题。John: Pull your weight: To share in the workload. “Since we’ve tightened our belts, everybody has to pull his weight.” XH: Pull your weight指尽力的意思。John: Axed: To be terminated; synonymous with being fired. “The yes man was axed when he came down with lockjaw.”XH: Axed被砍掉被开除的意思。John: Now, we are axed. That all the time we have for this week’s RoundTable’s Word of the Week.

Word of the Week Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about some New Year related idioms as the New Year is coming. John: And they almost all have something to do with becoming a new person, using the New Year as a way to realize your goals that you did not actually achieve in the year before. Whether or not this year will be different is of course a different question. But let’s start with, first, ring in the New Year, so basically to celebrate the beginning of the New Year at midnight on Dec 31. Xiaohua: Ring in the new year就是迎接新年的到来，因为要敲响新年钟声嘛，所以you gotta ring the bell to welcome the New Year and hence ring in the New Year. John: Right. Then there is turn over a new leaf. It’s time for a fresh start and do something different. Interestingly enough, it has nothing to do with the leaves that fall after the tree rather it has to do with the leaf, in a book, a book leaf. Xiaohua: Turn over a new leaf 可不是翻开一片新的叶子，而是翻开新的一页书，因为这个leaf指得是书页的意思。 John: Then back to the drawing board, so architects, designers use drawing boards to come up with designs and they are able to translate those designs into a real actual product. The whole idea there is you go back to the drawing board to re-evaluate and re-plan for the New Year. Xiaohua: Back to the drawing board 也是重新开始的意思，因为建筑师都要有这种画图板来画图，那么重新回到画图板上就是说要重新开始规划一件事情的意思。 John: Then there is start from scratch. So if you haven’t begun one of your New Year’s goals, you must start at the beginning. This is also interesting, because you can make something from scratch, nothing do with New Year, but make something from scratch means, for example, I made some cookies from scratch, which means I didn’t buy them at the store and I didn’t buy a cookie mix, everything all the ingredients, I had to mix all together myself. Xiaohua: Start from the scratch就是从头开始，从起点开始。那make something from scratch的意思就是我是从最开始的那第一步开始一点一点做起来的。 John: And there is back to square one, so if you started a goal before and it didn’t work out, you can always go back to square one. We are really not sure where this came from, but square one being, you know, the very first place. Xiaohua: Back to square one也是回到原点的意思，那这个square one在这里就是表示最初的地方，起点。 John: Then there is jump on the bandwagon, so maybe you want to do something that other people have tried to do so, maybe a new diet, writing challenge and hairstyle, so you jump on the bandwagon. So this basically means doing something that other people are doing or have already done. Xiaohua: Jump on the bandwagon跳上大篷车，这实际上的意思就是说跟随别人的脚步或者跟随一些已经存在的潮流也来做这件事情。 John: Right. Again nothing to do with lifestyle necessarily, you know, with来自星星的你. At first, it wasn’t all that popular, and then it became very popular, but people who hadn’t watched it yet they jumped on the bandwagon and fell in love. Xiaohua: 有点像赶上这波潮流，赶上这波流行的意思。 John: Then last but not the least, if at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. I think this one is actually fairly obvious, but somehow a clichéd phrase that we use in English on a regular basis as if it’s something new and it actually means something. But it is just what it sounds like. If you are not successful, just try again. Xiaohua: 如果刚开始不成功的话，要继续尝试。这听上去好像是中国家长们鼓励小朋友好好学习的这样一句话，but it’s actually used widely across the board. And that’s all we have for this edition of Word of the Week and happy New Year! John: Happy New Year!

Heyang: 欢迎收听这周的英语词汇小百科，我是赫扬。 John: Yeah, so this week we are looking at idioms in the English language related to Greek and Roman mythology. A lot of these are used quite often in English. It’s similar to成语 I suppose. Just because it’s a huge part of our culture, that for many people, we don’t even necessarily question where they come from. So the first one is Pandora’s Box, for example to open a Pandora’s Box means to invite trouble. Heyang: 潘多拉的魔盒，你一定听说过，其实它的意思是灾祸之源，也许不是一个非常吉利的说法。It’s that a little bit unfortunate to say it？ John: Definitely. The problem with Pandora’s Box is you never know exactly what’s going to be in there. Some of them might be good, but most of it is probably going to be bad. Heyang: And also isn’t that the name of the planet in the movie Avatar, I wonder if there is any association there. John: And the next one is the Oedipus Complex. This was actually coined by Sigmund Freud. Basically it was the psychological concept that all men want to kill their father and marry their mother and this is basically what ended up happening to Oedipus, even though he did not know it. Heyang: 欧狄浦斯情结，也就是恋母情结，是常常来形容这种让人觉得有一点点乱伦的感觉的一种男女之间的关系。 John: Yeah, and so really these days it’s used more just to describe perhaps a bit of an unhealthy relationship between a mother and her son. And the opposite or perhaps the complementary complex for girls, called the Electra Complex, very, very similar, you know that somehow the girl wants to replace the mother in the father’s relationship. Heyang: 那这个就是恋父情结了。 John: And there is the Trojan Horse. I think most people are publicly familiar with this term already. Trojan Horse, basically, it is a threat that is wrapped up in some type of present or something like that. Heyang: Trojan Horse就是内部的破坏集团的意思，同时也有隐藏的危险的意思。And in the modern world, is it used to describe the computer virus as well? John: Those are Trojan. Trojan viruses are viruses that get on to your hard drive or your computer somehow and don’t do anything until they are triggered by certain events or just maybe like a time bomber or something like that. And there is Achilles’ Heel, so the weakness of an individual which ends up leading to his downfall. Heyang: 这个词的意思是致命的弱点。 John: Then the Midas Touch. We don’t use it so often any more, but certainly everyone knows what you are talking about if you do use this. So the Midas Touch means basically a person who is always lucky and is said to have the Midas Touch. So Midas was a king who wished that everything he touched turned to gold. It’s actually a bit of tragic story, but the way we use it these days is more positive. Heyang: 这个意思就是点石成金术，而且同时形容某些人十分的幸运，但是现在使用率并不是那么高了。 John: And then there is the Sword of Damocles, so it’s imminent and ever-present peril faced by those in positions of power. So the idea is the Sword of Damocles hanging above your head and might drop down at any moment. Heyang: 达摩克利斯之剑, 同时也意味着时刻存在的危险。 John: And there is the Gordian Knot, which is an extremely perplexing puzzle or problem. Very, very interesting story behind this one: Alexander the Great, came upon the Gordian knot, it was fame throughout the entire world that no one could actually untie this knot. And you know how he solved this problem? Heyang: How did he do it? John: Just cut it in half with a sword. Heyang: That sounds very much like something that Alexander the Great would do. 戈耳迪之结就是非常难解之题。 John: And then there is the apple of discord. It can be any subject of disagreement and contention. Heyang:不和的根源、发生纠纷的事端就是apple of discord的意思。 John: And the last but not least, Swan Song, a final gesture, effort, or performance given just before death or retirement. Heyang:天鹅挽歌，也就是最后的杰作的意思。这个是个很简单的词，可以把它记起来哟。

Xiaohua: Hello and welcome to this week’s Word of the Week. Last week we talked about horse-related idioms and phrases in English. And this week let’s continue with dogs. John: Dogs! Obviously it is very very different. We will just go right through them as quick as possible and try to explain as many as possible. So first is “as sick as a dog.” This one is actually quite clear. It just means very sick. Xiaohua:病得很厉害，病得像只狗一样。 John: Then there is “his bark is worse than his bite,” basically referring to a dog. A dog is barking really really loud at you. But it’s barking at you because actually it’s scared and it’s not going to bite you. The idea being is that someone is being loud, someone is being aggressive, but they are not actually going to do anything. Xiaohua:狗总是叫得很凶，但实际上并不见得会冲上来咬你。 “One’s bark is worse than one’s bite”有一点点像刀子嘴豆腐心，就是嘴上说的虽然凶，但其实并不会怎样伤害你。 John: And there is the “bark up the wrong tree.” Basically it is to choose the wrong course of action, or to ask the wrong person and continue in that action until someone tells you to stop. Xiaohua: 选错了对象，选错了事情的方向，都可以说是“bark up the wrong tree.” So can you give us an example？ John: Yeah. “My boss is barking up the wrong tree. The computer problem isn’t my fault.” Xiaohua: OK. So in this case, 老板是怪错了人。 John: Yeah exactly. And then there is a “better to be a live dog than a dead lion.” So basically it is better to be a crowd and be alive than it is to be a hero and dead. Xiaohua: 听上去有点像是“好死不如赖活着。” John: And there is a “dog-eat-dog.” So basically we usually use it a lot with “it is a dog-eat-dog world”, which means that everyone is very aggressive and very competitive. If you are not the most aggressive, then you are going to lose. Xiaohua:“A dog-eat-dog world” 就是说这是一个无情竞争的世界。 John: And then “every dog has his day,” everyone will have his chance or turn eventually getting what they deserves. That could be a bad thing, and could be a good thing. Xiaohua: 我之前一直以为“every dog has his day” 是指再倒霉的人也会有交好运的一天。但是John说“every dog has his day”也可以指再幸运的人也都有倒霉的一天。 John: And there is a “fight like cats and dogs.” This one is very very descriptive. You just imagine a dog and a cat and when they are fighting, what it looks like. That’s basically what it means. So when you are fighting with your wife or your husband like a cat and a dog, it means it is very very loud and very very strong. Xiaohua: “Fight like cats and dogs”就是打得很厉害吵得很厉害的意思。And if you don’t know it, just watch Tom and Jerry. John: There you go. And there is “the hair of the dog that bit you.” The idea being is that you had a long night last night you were out with your friends, drinking too much probably, you wake up in the morning and you are hung-over, you’ve got a headache, you are very tired, feel very bad, and so then you have the hair of the dog that bit you, and you have a drink of beer, you have a drink of alcohol, and that suppose to make you feel better. I don’t know if it is true, but that’s what they say. Xiaohua:I see. 在西方有这么一个习惯就是比如说宿醉的人在第二天早上醒来之后可以再喝一小杯酒，这样可以解酒。所以那杯用来解酒的酒就叫做the hair of the dog. John: The history of this phrase is really really interesting and that actually comes from a rabies cure. The idea being is like you have to drink like a potion or a concoction after a dog bit you. You have to find the hair of the dog or of a different dog and mix it up with some other stuff and that would help to cure rabies. Obviously that doesn’t work but somehow that got evolved into a hangover cure. Xiaohua:在很久以前人们应对狂犬病的办法就是找到一只狗身上的毛，然后用来制作一种制剂，喝下去以后就可以治狂犬病。“The hair of the dog”的意思就是从这里来的。 John: There is a “let sleeping dogs lie,” basically (it means) if you don’t have to make trouble, then don’t. Xiaohua:不要叫醒沉睡的狗，这个词的意思就是说没有必要惹麻烦的时候就不要去惹麻烦了。 John: And “rain cats and dogs” I think a lot of people have already heard of this one. Basically it means the pour-down rain, really really hard. Xiaohua: That’s right. 下很大的雨可以叫做“rain cats and dogs.” John: Then to “put your tails between your legs,” so to feel beaten or humiliated. Because you know usually a dog, when they are showing subservience they are showing they’ve been beaten in a fight, or that they are scared, they will run away with their tails between their legs. Xiaohua:这个中文也有差不多对应的说法，“夹着尾巴”就是说非常沮丧，一蹶不振的感觉。 John: And last but not least, “you can't teach an old dog new tricks.” It’s hard for old people or people set in their ways to learn new things. Xiaohua:这一般是指一些老顽固，不肯接受和学习新事物的人，我们就说“老狗学不会新的戏法了。”And that’s all we have of Round Table’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. 这周我们来讨论一些跟动物有关的idioms。 John: That’s right. In this week, we will focus on words that have to do with horses or horse like creatures, for example as stubborn as a mule. So mule is especially very stubborn, so if you are as stubborn as a mule, you are very stubborn. Then there is beat a dead horse. It is actually my favorite, because it’s very descriptive actually. So basically it means to continue arguing or continue fighting over something when it has already been settled. Xiaohua: 马是人类最早驯养的动物之一，所以英语里也有很多跟马相关的习语。最简单比如说as stubborn as a mule，中国人会说他像驴一样倔，而英国人就说他像骡子一样固执。Beat a dead horse就有点像是穷追不舍。 John: Champ at the bit, again one of my favorite, because it’s so descriptive. So champ means so like bite very hard on something and the bit is actually the thing that goes inside a horse’ mouth that helps to direct it for the riders to direct where he is going. So champ at the bit is what a horse does when he is excited about something that exactly what champ at the bit means. It means that you are anxious, you are excited and you cannot wait to do something you are champing at the bit. Xiaohua: Champ是嚼，bit就是马嚼子。当马比较激动的时候，主人就会勒住马嚼子，所以champ at the bit就是非常激动不安、跃跃欲试的意思。 John: Then there is the dog and pony show, not so much about horse, but about pony, a type of horse. But dog and pony show is something you disapprove of, because you think it’s only there to impress you. Xiaohua: Pony是小马的意思，dog and pony show一般是动物园或者马戏团用来哄小孩子的。所以dog and pony show可以指一样东西没有实际的价值，只是看上去华而不实而已。 John: And then there is the high horse. You can get off your high horse. You say, you really need to get off your high horse. It means you need to stop being so arrogant. And you can also say someone is getting on their high horse, which means they are becoming arrogant or they are behaving very arrogant or rude. Xiaohua: 当有人骑上很高的马的时候，他们通常是高高在上，不搭理别人。Get off one’s high horse就是说不要装腔作势了。 John: Yeah, then of course there is hold one’s horses or my grandmother used to say hold your water, referring to women and there before they get birth. But hold your horses and hold your water is the same thing. Just wait or just be patient. Xiaohua: Hold one’s horses先别着急，别忙，等等。 John: And then there is look a gift horse in the mouth. And so look a gift horse in the mouth means that someone gives you a present and you start complaining about that. Xiaohua: 有人给了你一匹马，但是你还要仔细检查这匹马的牙口，看看它是不是一匹好马，所以look a gift horse in the mouth就是说拿到了礼物，还要抱怨礼物不够好。 John: And then you can put someone or something out to pasture, so basically it just means you retire something or someone and you don’t actually use it any longer, so for example a horse that is too old and you cannot ride it anymore, and you would put it out to pasture and it’s just like you __. Xiaohua: So you can put a car to pasture? John: You can put a car out to pasture, you can put a person out to pasture and you can put a hammer out to pasture. Xiaohua: I see.让什么人或者是什么东西退休。 John: Then straight from the horse’s mouth, directly from the person who said something, so for example I heard from the horse’s mouth that Xiaohua is quitting tomorrow which means I heard Xiaohua told me that she is quitting tomorrow. But you are not, right? Xiaohua: No, of course not. 所以当你hear something straight from the horse’s mouth的意思就是你是直接从某人处听说的这个消息。 John: And there is the put the cart before the horse. Usually the horse is before the cart, and if you put the cart before the horse, that means you are doing things in the wrong order. And the last but not the least, it’s kind of similar lines, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. So sometimes people just say, oh, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but they imply but you can’t make it drink, so you can give someone the opportunity, but it’s their responsibility and it’s up to them to take advantage of it. Xiaohua: Put the cart before the horse其实就是本末倒置的意思，那这里是车和马的方向搞反了，也就是说做事情的顺序完全不对。And lead a horse to water. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.这有一点像是师傅领进门，修行在个人的意思，也有点像强按牛头不喝水。So that’s what it means. 如果想要知道更多关于马的英文习语，可以关注我们的官方微信账号EZFMroundtable, we’ll put more things out there. And that’s all we have for Round Table’s Word of the Week. John: Bye bye. Xiaohua: Bye.

Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. This week we are going to talk about some science theories that are made known by the film Interstellar. John: Yeah, not so much made known. I mean these are concepts and ideas that have been around for quite a long time even as early as the 1930s and 1940s, but really what we see with the movie Interstellar which I have not seen yet, we see just a kind of popularization of those ideas. Not to say that Interstellar is the first one to do so, but due to the popularity, especially here in the Mainland, without it we cannot talk about some of them. I want to take the time right now to first describe some very fundamental concepts in the world of mathematics, in physics that informs much of what we saw in Interstellar. So the first is general relativity and a simple explanation of general relativity is the idea on large scales, what happens with large bodies and their influence on other things. So by large bodies, I mean planets, suns, other stars, comets, and things like that. Large massive things in space and how they affect each other, mostly looking at gravity and time. Xiaohua: 广义相对论general relativity基本上讲的就是在广大的空间内的一些高密度的天体是怎样互相之间作用而影响我们的。 John: Then there is quantum physics. So general relativity is attributed to Einstein in the 1930s and 1940s somewhere around there. And then there was quantum physics which was popularized especially in the 1960s and 1970s. So general relativity has everything to do with large massive bodies, again planets, stars, things like that. Quantum physics has everything to do with small things. Things that we cannot perceive with the naked eye, so quantum physics tries to answer the question how is it that an atom stays in atom, how does a molecule stay a molecule, even going future down how does a proton stay a proton. Xiaohua: 在相对论之后，又有了著名的量子理论quantum physics。 John: The problem for theoretical physicists so the people who are doing all the math and trying to figure how the math works is that if you try to apply the ideas in mathematics of general relativity to very small things, everything breaks down. And if you try to apply the mathematics of quantum physics and quantum theory on a larger scale, everything breaks down. And so what theoretical physicists had to do was come up with a completely separate system of math and a completely separate idea of how things work. And they call that string theory. So string theory has not been experimentally proven. However, this point is accepted by a wide number of theoretical physicists and mathematicians as a very elegant way of bringing general relativity and quantum physics together. Xiaohua: 由于广义相对论和量子理论在很多地方是不能同时成立的，于是理论物理学家们又延伸出一个新的学科，那就是弦理论，也就是string theory。 John: Right, so the idea behind string theory is that you have strings of different shapes and sizes vibrating at certain frequencies. This can be very, very small, smaller than electron, than the smallest particle we know of. Everything basically is made up of different types of strings vibrating at different frequencies and this is where the ideas of branes or membranes and worm holes really start to take shape and actually start to make sense in terms of the mathematics and the actual theory. Xiaohua: 弦理论的一个基本观点就是说自然界的基本单元不是点状粒子，而是很小很小的线状的弦string，而弦之间的不同震动就产生出不同的基本粒子。另外在弦理论里面还有一个brane, right? John: Yeah, brane. It’s just the shortening of the word membrane. The idea there is that the membrane is actually a very elongated string that also has its own vibration. And the idea is all theory. None of this is proven. It’s that our universe in fact could be either just on one brane or could be that we are on many different branes, so the idea is that somehow you take one membrane and you fold it around. It should be theoretically possible to create some kind of gateway between those two. That’s really where the idea of a worm hole really starts to make sense, so people used to think there was this science fiction idea that black holes could somehow be a worm hole, but as far as we know, the physics of that just make no sense, because the black hole is a star that collapses upon itself so quickly because of the way that these forces work, that it just sucks in everything else around it and the thing is as far as we can tell, if everything is actually sucked into the black hole, there is no way that a human could actually survive. Xiaohua: 而弦理论的存在使得平行空间，也就是虫洞的存在产生了可能。以前有人认为黑洞和虫洞也许是一种东西，但其实我们现在知道黑洞是一种超高密度的天体，那么所有的物体在被吸入黑洞之后都没有办法逃脱出来，所以黑洞和虫洞其实是不一样的。 John: I want to talk about the speed of light, in about relativity in that sense, because the whole thing with one of the big discoveries of Albert Einstein in terms of relativity was the speed of light. So a lot of science fiction looks at faster than light travel, sometimes abbreviated into FTL. The thing is right now, and this is why worm holes and things like that are so attractive, because according to the physics that in our understanding of the universe now it is virtually impossible to ever actually travel at the speed of light or even faster than the speed of light using what we now have in terms of propulsion technology. Because according to E=mc*2, as you get closer to the speed of light, the energy required increase in such an exponential fashion.

Xiaohua: Hello, welcome to Round Table’s Word of the Week. This week we are talking about English expressions that have other countries or peoples in them. John: Yes. Let’s start with France. So there are the French kiss and the “pardon my French” or “excuse my French”. So a French kiss, basically, just means it’s a type of very romantic kiss where two tongues are touching. Slang synonyms include, this is kind of vulgar actually, “swapping spit” or “tonsil hockey”. Interestingly enough, a French kiss is called that because at the beginning of the 20th century, the French had a reputation for more adventurous and passionate sex practices. Xiaohua: I see. French kiss法式深吻，大家都知道了。 John: “Pardon my French” is a common English language phrase used to disguise profanity as French. These days it is used a bit tongue in cheek as in, you know, hey we all know that I said about words, but I’m just kind of joking about it. But when it first came into use, people were, in fact, serious about that. It was a way to apologize for saying bad words. Xiaohua: “Pardon my French”一般是用在说了一些不好听的话或一些脏话之后，然后请求对方的原谅。 John: Now we are going over to Mexico with the Mexican standoff. So it’s a confrontation among three armed opponents, usually the origin of the word list can armed with guns. So the problem is, NO.1, if you are in a duel, right the first person that shoots is at an advantage, because it’s only two people. But in a Mexican standoff, because there are three people, the first person you shoot is actually, at a disadvantage, because then the second person might shoot them, right? So the Mexican standoff, these days, has come to mean, basically, a confrontation or a situation where there is no tactical advantage in terms of first move. It’s also perhaps unsafe to try to withdraw from the confrontation. Xiaohua: Mexican standoff, 我们在西部片里都看过类似的场景。三个牛仔在一起决斗，这个时候，第一个拔枪的人未必会占到先机，因为可能会被下一个人射倒。在现代英语中，Mexican standoff可能会指一个比较棘手的政治事件，在博弈当中最先出牌的人不见得会占到优势。 John: These days it just comes to mean a confrontation no one has a measurable advantage and it might not be very wise to try to withdraw from the standoff. All right, now we are going to Greece with the phrase “it’s all Greek to me” or “it’s Greek to me”. Basically, it just means that when you’re looking at something written down, maybe someone who is speaking to you, maybe some complicated math or diagram, you look at it or you hear it and you have no idea what it’s supposed to mean. It’s all very foreign, completely incomprehensible, so it’s all Greek to you. Xiaohua: 希腊话是很难学的，那么当有人说话听上去像希腊话一样，那就是说完全听不懂。 John: And interestingly enough, some historians say this might be a direct translation from a similar phrase in Latin, which means it’s Greek, therefore it cannot be read. Now we are going over to the Netherlands with two different phrases “go Dutch” and “Dutch uncle”. I think everyone pretty much knows what “going Dutch” means, but it can actually be related to the farm doors on a Dutch barn house that are spit into two. But the “Dutch uncle” is someone who issues frank, harsh or severe comments and criticism to educate, encourage, or admonish someone. Xiaohua: “go Dutch” 大家都知道是什么意思。我记得在以前的词汇小百科里，我们也解释过。那么“Dutch uncle”是指老是喜欢教育别人，说话不招人待见的人。 John: Then we are going to Russia with Russian roulette. Basically, you have a revolver which is a type of gun. A revolver has six different holes for six bullets. But in Russian roulette, you only put one bullet in one of the slots. You spin the barrel and then you play a game where each person has to put the gun to their head and pull the trigger. Xiaohua: Yes. 俄罗斯轮盘赌可不是普通的赌博，而是真的在赌命，那么左轮手枪的转轮一转立刻就要决出生死。I think that’s the most stupid game I’ve ever seen. John: Yeah, actually there is really no evidence to say that this actually comes from Russia at all. Instead, there was a short story by Georges Surdez in 1937, when he basically explained what he called the time Russian roulette. Now we are going to our favorite place in the entire world, China, to take a look at some words. So there are the Chinese wall and Chinese whispers. For Chinese wall, we usually don’t use these type of phrases in the United States any more. They are not considered to be politically correct. So a Chinese wall is basically just an information barrier or a communication wall between two different departments in the same organization. Usually, these days, we don’t call it a Chinese wall any more. We usually call it a fire wall. Xiaohua: Chinese wall指的是难以逾越的障碍，那么也指的是在商业中两个部门的人员之间的隔离以避免内幕交易。 John: And then there is the Chinese whispers, which I never heard of until today actually. For Chinese whispers, in the United States, we call it telephone. And basically it’s a game where we have a long line of people and someone at the beginning of the line whispers something like a sentence or phrase to the next person; then it has to keep going on. And more than likely, when it gets to the last person, the message has changed substantially, sometimes even to a comedic effect. Xiaohua: 不知道有些英语专业的人，你们的老师有没有给你们玩过Chinese whisper的游戏，在美国又叫telephone。

(Xiaohua)Hello and welcome to Round Table as the Word of the Week. This week we are talking about one of my favorite topics – cooking. (John)Yeah actually when I was researching this topic, it really just made me kind of want to get back into cooking again. Recently my mother-in-law has been doing a lot of cooking, but I haven’t. But we're just going to give you a quick list of some commonly-use words you might see in like an English recipe book, or when someone is talking about cooking. The first one we are looking at is blanching. (Xiaohua)Blanching其实就是我们常说的焯,焯一下。 (John)There you go! Interesting! In English, obviously it’s same in Chinese, all you do is put vegetable or fruit, but usually vegetable, into boiling water, and after a very very short period of time, take it out and put it into iced water or cold running water to immediately halt the cooking process. (Xiaohua)焯的诀窍就是在焯完之后要立刻放到凉水里面,以避免食材被煮得过熟。 (John)And then the next is braising. It’s a combination cooking method using both moist and dry heat. So usually the food is first seared(we will talk about that in a minute)in a high temperature, and then finish in a covered pot with a variable amount of liquid. (Xiaohua)Braise很多人都以为就是炖的意思,但其实braise是先用高温煎炸过,然后再炖。 (John)Yeah and there is simmering. Simmering is used a lot in western cooking. Basically you bring whatever liquid you have in your pot up to boiling and you turn the heat down to just keep it just below boiling. So it’s not on the lowest setting. But it’s just keeping the liquid at a temperature that it's not actually boiling. (Xiaohua)Simmering就是小火煮然后刚好火要小到让它将开锅又没有开锅的时候。 (John)And now let’s look at sautéing, which is a type of frying. And it’s actually from the French “sauté”, which means "jumped or bounced", so basically in reference to tossing while cooking. So use a small amount of oil or fat in a shallow pan over pretty high heat, and the ingredients that you sauté are gonna be thinly cut or chopped into small pieces such like an onion or pieces of a mashed garlic or something like that. And over high heat you just sauté really really quickly then you add other stuff and finish off the recipe. (Xiaohua)Sauté是西餐里用到的一种炒菜的方法,需要“颠勺”这种技巧。It’s actually pretty close to what the Chinese call “stir-fry”, but it’s different. (John)It’s different because stir-fry is complete method. You can make an entire meal using stir-fry. Sauté is usually used in the beginning of a recipe. For example, if I am cooking ground meat or something like that, I’ll probably start by sautéing onions and garlic together, then putting in the ground meat. And I wouldn’t be sautéing the ground meat. (Xiaohua)I see. 所以在西餐里的Sauté可能只是做菜的一小部分。 (John)And now we gonna keep moving on. Next up is barbecuing. I think many people would know that. Basically it’s just cooking meat, or pretty much anything actually, using hot smoke of a fire, smoking wood or hot coals of charcoal. (Xiaohua)Barbecue 不需要解释啦。 (John)Exactly. And then there is grilling. So here is the thing actually – grill usually refers to barbecuing. You grill something, you barbecue something on a grill, you are grilling. Grill can also be used inside. If you have a griddle, for example, or even you have just a regular pan, but you are grilling a hamburger inside. (Xiaohua)Grill既可以是户外烧烤,也可以是用烤架,烤炉,甚至是平底锅来烤。 (John)Then there is a rotisserie, where meat is skewered, a whole, a big metal stick, all the way of the other, and then it is stuck on the machine where just keeps rotating so that no one piece of meat usually is over the fire or heat source for too long. (Xiaohua)Yummy. Rotisserie指的是用烤叉穿过要烤的,一般是鸡,或者是其他的肉类,然后在电烤炉里面一边转一边烤。 (John)Yeah in western cooking, it’s usually chicken. And then there is searing. Searing is actually used a lot more than you might think and we talked about it before. But it’s basically, what you do is the surface of the food is cooked at very very high temperature so that a crust kind of forms on the outside. And the whole purpose isn’t necessarily to actually fully cook the meat, but just to get a nice crust on the outside. Sometimes it’s also be browning or blackening so the temperature of the pan that you are using and the oil (if you are using oil) is gonna be very very high and you are only cooking it for a little bit more than likely after that you’re going to be putting it into the oven to finish cooking all together. (Xiaohua)Searing有一点点像炸,但是不是deep-fry,而是刚好要炸到表面上微微发焦,然后再继续之后的制作过程。 (John)Exactly. And then the last but not least is marination, one of my favorite processes when I was cooking meat. And basically you’re just soaking foods in a seasoned liquid before cooking. And the best type as usually as gonna use is acidic marinade with vinegar, lemon juice, or wine, or enzymatic, which I think is quite interesting, pineapple, papaya or kiwifruit. You let it sit for maybe even a couple of days before you actually cook it up. (Xiaohua)Marinade是一种腌制的过程,经常要在做肉的时候用到。有的时候marinade可以持续一天以上。 (John)Yeah I mean sometimes marinade can be very short. But the whole purpose is just to get the flavors from the liquid actually into the meat. It’s actually different from a sauce. Sauce is only on the outside, but if you marinate, especially for longer time.

Xiaohua: Hello, Round Table’s Word of the Week again. So last week, we talked about aerobic exercise. I guess it’s time for anaerobic. John: Exactly. Anaerobic exercise is exercise intense enough to trigger lactic acid formation. It is used in non-endurance sports to promote strength, speed and power and also to build muscle mass. So bottom line, an anaerobic exercise is a high intensity activity which lasts from mere seconds to up to two minutes. Xiaohua: 无氧运动跟有氧运动相对，指的是高速剧烈的运动。运动时会在体内产生乳酸。因为强度很高，所以不能够很持久，一般从两秒钟到两分钟。 John: Yeah, so interestingly enough, anaerobic exercise increases your capacity to withstand the buildup of waste substances, such as lactic acid, and removes them from the body. This actually means your endurance and ability to fight fatigue will improve. Xiaohua: 无氧运动可以加速身体的新陈代谢，还有肌肉的负重能力。 John: And so weight training is a common type of anaerobic exercise, again from mere seconds to two minutes. Xiaohua: 负重训练weight training也是一种无氧运动，既可以通过负重器械，也可以通过像哑铃、杠铃这样的器械来完成。 John: And so sets of one to five repetitions primarily develop strength. Sets of six to twelve repetitions develop a balance of strength, muscle size and anaerobic endurance. And sets of thirteen to twenty develop anaerobic endurance. Xiaohua: 力量训练，如果是做一到五次的话，主要是为了增强力量；做六到十二次，则是可以在力量均衡的同时还可以增肌；而如果做到十三到二十次，则对增强力量已经没有很大的帮助而主要的帮助是在增加无氧情况下肌肉的承受力。 John: Yeah, and so looking at free weights, there’re a few different pieces of equipment you can use. One is the dumbbell. And I’m sure if you have been to a gym, you have seen many of these. The dumbbell is actually a part of a pair. Usually, you take one in both hands and use it in different exercises. Xiaohua: 哑铃应该是最主要的力量训练的器械。一般是一只手拿一个用来均衡地训练力量。 John: Then there is the barbell which is, basically, just a bar that you can put different weights on top of it and uses in your exercise. Xiaohua: 杠铃barbell，很多都是可调节重量的。 John: And then there is the medicine ball, which is a weighted ball roughly the diameter of the shoulders and is usually used for rehabilitation and strength training. Xiaohua: medicine ball健身实心球经常被用来进行术后或者病后的恢复训练。 John: Then there is the kettlebell, sometimes called the cannonbell, which is, basically, a cast-iron or steel weight that looks kind of like a ball or cannonball with a handle. Xiaohua: 壶铃长得有一点点像壶，在球上有一个把手。 John: And then, of course, there are the bodyweight exercises which many people are already familiar with. There is, of course, the push-up or press-up. That’s used by lying in a prone position and raising and lowering the body only using the arms. This, actually, exercises the pectoral muscles so the chest, the triceps, as well as your shoulders. Xiaohua: 还有一些体重训练，其实指的就是用自身的体重，而不是用哑铃、杠铃这些器械来训练力量。最通常的是push-up仰卧起坐（应该是俯卧撑，此为主持人口误）还有pull-up引体向上。 John: Then there is the pull-up again which most people are familiar with. Two different types of grips: the palms facing forward or away from you and then also the palms facing towards the person. These really help with the shoulders and the biceps. Xiaohua: 引体向上锻炼得主要是肩部肌肉和肱二头肌。 John: And, of course, there is the sit-up and the crunch. The only real difference between the two is that the sit-up has a fuller range of motion and it targets the hips, not just the stomach. The crunch targets mostly only the stomach. Xiaohua: 还有两种很常见的体重运动就是仰卧起坐和卷腹了。它们之间的区别是仰卧起坐的动作幅度更大，而且训练得有可能不光是腹部肌肉，还可能训练到臀部肌肉。而卷腹则只是训练腹部肌肉。And that’s all we have for Round Table’s Word of the Week.

Xiaohua: Hello, and welcome to Roundtable’s Word of the Week. Today we’re talking about bikini, a word that everyone knows but maybe not everyone knows the origin of. John: As Xiaohua just said, almost everyone knows what a bikini is. But just to be clear, the bikini is a two-piece swimsuit with a bra top and panties cut below the navel. So it’s not just a two-piece swimsuit. Specifically, it is a fairly revealing two-piece swimsuit. Xiaohua：嗯，比基尼我们都知道是什么意思，就是一种两片式的由胸衣还有三角裤构成的泳衣。 John：Now it’s really interesting that are actually lots of different bikini variants. Basically just has the -kini or the -ini at the end. So you have the monokini, the microkini, the tankini, the trikini, the sling bikini among many others. And we’ll talk about what those are specifically a little bit later. Xiaohua: So where does the word bikini come from? John: Well, interestingly enough, it actually comes from the Bikini Atoll in the Pacific Ocean, where the United States actually tested its first peace-time nuclear weapons. So the word bikini has nothing to do with the actually meaning of bikini. Bikini in the local language of that area basically means the surface of coconuts. But the original designer of the bikini named it after the Bikini Atoll because he was hoping it was going to be just as explosive as the nuclear bomb test. Xiaohua: I see. 所以比基尼这个词其实来自太平洋的一个小岛，叫比基尼岛，Bikini Atoll。在上世纪40年代的时候，美国曾在比基尼岛上试爆过原子弹。bikini在当地语言中的意思是“椰子的表面”，但这并不是比基尼设计者用这个词给泳衣命名的原因，他是希望这种泳衣发明，效果或者影响力会像原子弹爆炸一样。 John：So the French mechanical engineer who actually came up with the bikini, the reason that he did it: he was actually working at his mother’s lingerie shop, and he noticed on the beach that many women, they had two-piece swimsuits that were fairly modest you might say. But he noticed that many women were actually rolling them up to get a better tan. And that’s how he came up with the idea for bikini, so a lot less fabric. The thing is, at the time, it was hugely risqué and deemed inappropriate for many women to be wearing. The Vatican completely outlawed them. In the U.S., in many cases, you had beaches that would ban people, men and women, from wearing this kind of very revealing underwear. But it wasn’t until the 1950s that Hollywood stars such as Bridget Bardot, Rita Hayworth, Lana Turner, Elizabeth Taylor, they started to wear these bikinis, mostly because it got them a lot of attention. And then it kind of came to the main stream. Xiaohua: 比基尼的发明者是一位法国人，他的灵感实际上是这么来的。他在海滩上看到很多妇女穿着两片式的泳衣，但她们实际上把自己的泳衣向上卷起来，这样可以更好地晒到阳光。但是当他发明这款比基尼泳衣之后，在当时的西方社会引起了非常大的轰动，很多人都不能接受这种很暴露的穿着方式。一直到20世纪50年代，有很多好莱坞明星开始穿着比基尼之后，比基尼才开始流行起来。 John: And of course, this is where the notion of bikini tan comes from, basically where a woman, or a man, because there are men’s bikinis, just the bottom part really. You can see they have a tan line, a bikini tan line where the bikini actually is. Xiaohua: bikini-tanline就是穿着比基尼泳衣时晒太阳在皮肤上留下的一种痕迹。 John: Let’s take a look at the different and many variations. We’re only going to give you a small sampling. Certainly there are more, but here are some of the more interesting ones. So a bandeau-kini, sometimes also called a bandini, is any bikini bottom worn with a bandeau as the top, so basically it’s a strapless top. Xiaohua: bankini, 或者是bandeau-kini，是指泳衣的上身是由抹胸构成的泳衣。 John：And a microkini, including a minikini or a mini-mini, is basically an extremely skimpy bikini. So you take what the bikini already is, fairly revealing, and you make it even more revealing. Xiaohua: microkini就是用料非常节省的泳衣。We all know what the effects are like. John: Exactly. And a monokini or a unikini or sometimes even a numokini is basically just the bottom part, the panties of the bikini itself. And really it just refers to any type of topless swimsuit, Xiaohua: monokini, 就是没有上片，只有三角裤的一种泳衣。I don’t anyone who will wear that. John: You are not gonna see this in China. But topless swim bathing happens quite often in Europe. And then there is the skirtini, which is a bikini top and a small, skirted bottom. So basically it just gives you a bit more coverage on the bottom. Xiaohua: 下半身是裙式的这种bikini叫skirtini. This is quite commonly seen in China. John: Yeah very common. And then there is a string bikini, sometimes called a tie-side. Basically the bottom is just held together by 2 pieces of string. Xiaohua: 系绳式bikini叫string bikini。 John: Then, last but not least for today, there is a tankini, which is a swimsuit combining a tank top, and then of course, the bikini bottom. Xiaohua: Tankini上身的泳衣是背心式的。That’s a lot of knowledge for one day. John: And there is so much more. I think that for me, I know nothing about women’s fashion. But certainly, I myself and doing the research learnt more than I ever needed to know. Xiaohua: That’s right, and that wraps up roundtable’s Word of the Week.