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In this episode, the focus is on clergy abuse—a topic made even more pressing by recent headlines. The featured guest, Sandy Phillips Kirkham, shares her harrowing ordeal of being abused by a charismatic youth pastor starting at the age of 16. Sandy discusses the grooming process, the five years of abuse, and how she was ultimately expelled from her church while her abuser was merely relocated. She delves into the long-lasting impact of the abuse on her life and her spiritual journey, how she concealed her trauma for 27 years, and how she ultimately confronted her abuser. Sandy also provides valuable insights and actionable advice for preventing abuse and supporting victims within church communities. Her story is also detailed in her book, ‘Let Me Prey on You,' which offers a detailed account of her journey from victim to advocate. 00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message 00:47 Welcome to the Podcast 01:32 Introducing Today's Topic: Clergy Abuse 02:17 Sandy Phillips Kirkham's Early Life and Church Involvement 06:22 Meeting the Abuser: The Charismatic Youth Pastor 08:43 Red Flags and Grooming Tactics 13:51 The First Inappropriate Act 16:37 The Abuse Escalates 21:06 The Aftermath and Church's Response 28:15 Life After Abuse: Marriage and Keeping Secrets 32:09 Protecting Future Generations 35:17 The Importance of Sex Education in the Church 36:32 Techniques for Discussing Sex with Children 37:22 Personal Experiences with Sex Education 38:20 Triggering Memories and Emotional Breakdown 40:13 The Journey of Healing Begins 41:31 Understanding Clergy Abuse and Self-Forgiveness 43:52 Confronting the Abuser 47:07 Challenges in Seeking Justice 54:47 Preventing Abuse in the Church 01:00:31 Supporting Victims of Clergy Abuse 01:05:07 Final Thoughts and Resources Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com  Purchase her book “Let Me Prey Upon You” on amazon: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/let-me-prey-upon-you/   Link Tree   Website: https://dswministries.org Subscribe to the podcast: https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/ Social media links: Join our Private Wounds of the Faithful FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1603903730020136 Twitter: https://twitter.com/DswMinistries YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxgIpWVQCmjqog0PMK4khDw/playlists Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dswministries/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DSW-Ministries-230135337033879 Keep in touch with me! Email subscribe to get my handpicked list of the best resources for abuse survivors! https://thoughtful-composer-4268.ck.page #abuse #trauma Affiliate links: Our Sponsor: 753 Academy: https://www.753academy.com/ Can't travel to The Holy Land right now? The next best thing is Walking The Bible Lands! Get a free video sample of the Bible lands here! https://www.walkingthebiblelands.com/a/18410/hN8u6LQP An easy way to help my ministry: https://dswministries.org/product/buy-me-a-cup-of-tea/ A donation link: https://dswministries.org/donate/   Sandy Phillips Kirkham [00:00:00] Special thanks to 7 5 3 Academy for sponsoring this episode. No matter where you are in your fitness and health journey, they've got you covered. They specialize in helping you exceed your health and fitness goals, whether that is losing body fat, gaining muscle, or nutritional coaching to match your fitness levels. They do it all with a written guarantee for results so you don't waste time and money on a program that doesn't exceed your goals. There are martial arts programs. Specialize in anti-bullying programs for kids to combat proven Filipino martial arts. They take a holistic, fun, and innovative approach that simply works. Sign up for your free class now. It's 7 5 3 academy.com. Find the link in the show notes. Welcome to the Wounds of the Faithful Podcast, brought to you by DSW Ministries. Your host is singer songwriter, speaker and domestic violence advocate, [00:01:00] Diana Winkler. She is passionate about helping survivors in the church heal from domestic violence and abuse and trauma. This podcast is not a substitute for professional counseling or qualified medical help. Now here is Diana. Hello. Welcome everyone. Welcome to my regular listeners, as well as some new listeners that have joined us today. I have a great guest for you today. We're going to be talking about clergy abuse today. Religious leader, abuse. Pastor, youth leader. You've seen this in the news recently with all these preachers being arrested or charged with sexual misconduct or rape or [00:02:00] pedophilia. I'm sure you've seen the news. Well, today we're going to hear a story about a woman who's been victimized in that way and she's fighting back. So let me read her bio for you. A church is where an insecure 16-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe tragically. For some, the church can become a place of great harm. Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken with a shattered faith and the ultimate shame of being blamed enforced from the church she loved. Despite a successful and happy life, is a wife, mother, and friend. Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for [00:03:00] 27 years until a trigger forced her to face the truth. Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let me pray upon you her book details. Sandy's journey from innocent 16-year-old, a victim to a survivor, and advocate. We please welcome Sandy Phillips. Kirk, welcome Sandy to the show. Thanks so much for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Wow. So I've been listening to you on the Preacher Boys podcast and thought you had a really great story, and so I wanted to come and bring you on so my listeners can hear your story as well. Mm-hmm. So tell us a little bit about your home and your church environment growing up. Let's [00:04:00] start from the beginning here. Okay. I'm the oldest of five. My parents were divorced when I was about seven, which that was really the impact of my life, of just how it altered everything about that time in my life. Then my mother remarried and we moved in with my stepfather shortly after my father remarried, and so I was dealing with these blended families and it was just very confusing for me at the time, my parents and stepfather did not attend church. So I, I wasn't a part of a church until I was about eight, and that's when my best friend who lived up the street invited me to go with their family, and I went with them and I went every Sunday after that, I absolutely fell in love with church. It was a place that I felt safe. I think it provided for me a place away from home that I felt comfortable and I got attention there. I was very active even as a small child. I went to vacation Bible school, church camp, love Sunday School. I sang in a junior choir. Really, it was a just a great place for me to [00:05:00] be. When I was 13, I was baptized and then my faith really deepened and my involvement in the church became even more so, started teaching Sunday school and teaching vacation Bible school. I started serving on committees with adults and doing more of the activities that would, , just be more in depth than just typical youth group activities. So, it's just no exaggeration to say that if the doors of the church were open, I was there and I loved it. I loved serving God. I felt that was the place for me, and everything about it was brought me joy and peace in the church. Wow. You really, were very sincere in your faith. It was not a fake one. I hear a lot of stories of. Being brought up in the church and being made to go to church and, you just go through the motions kind of thing. But it sounds like it was the opposite for you. It was that you really believed this with all your heart. Was that a fundamental Baptist church you were going [00:06:00] to or what? It was a church, Christ Christian Church, which is similar to the Baptist. It's an independent church. Yeah, that's the church. That was so something happened while you were serving the Lord and loving God. You met your abuser? Yes. Shortly after I turned 16, our church hired a new youth pastor, and from the moment he arrived, he was totally different than anyone we'd ever seen before. He was very charismatic, very dynamic. His sermons were really like nothing we'd ever heard before, and people were just drawn to him. He had a personality that people found themselves wanting to be around him. They wanted to please him. So he was very good at asking people to do things and they didn't hesitate. It, it was just a different kind of atmosphere. When he came to the church, the youth group exploded in numbers. We went from like 25 to almost 200 in a very short time. Even the [00:07:00] adult church was growing because people just came to hear him preach because he was so good at what he did. He was 30, married with two children, but he really acted more like our age group. He dressed like we did. He. Went to our football games at school, he knew our music. So he just, he really, he was tuned into us and in return we found ourselves, all of us being willing to please him and wanna do anything we could to make the youth group and the church better. So when people think of a profile of a child abuser, they usually think, oh, some dirty old man, that his roaming fingers or what have you, but this youth pastor sounded like, okay, he was really good looking and hip and really loved the young people. Mm-hmm. Is that typical of. Well, it's, it's typical in the sense that it's not the, dirty old man hiding in the bushes. Most abusers [00:08:00] are people we know. They're people that we like. They're usually people that, connect with people very well, and that's what makes them so dangerous because they're not obvious with what they do, and they're very good at that. They pretend to be one of us. They pretend to care, but in reality, their goal is to find a way to take advantage of the most vulnerable in, in the group. And so, predators are usually drawn to places where they will find vulnerable people. The gymnastics team is an example of that. The Boy Scouts, anywhere where you can, and certainly the church because we are welcoming into people who are in need. Oftentimes. Then there are many people in the church who are vulnerable to these types of men, and sometimes women. Were there any red flags? That you should have seen or noticed when you were around this youth pastor? Well, he came with so many different ideas and different ways of doing things. And one of the things that he was doing now, this was in the [00:09:00] seventies, so cultures were changing and it was free love and kind of thing. But he came into our church and he expected everyone to hug each other. So we were always hugging each other. And he also expected us to say how much we loved each other and that we love you and not just that I love you in Christ. He would simply walk up, give you a hug and say, I love you. Now you know, that may seem innocent, but that's a little odd for that pastor to be saying those kinds of things. And it also blurs the lines because when you say to someone, I love you, that can be confusing to. Young teenagers and even to vulnerable adults. So, but he did that with everybody. It wasn't like he picked someone else special, but, so the hugging in the contact was kind of a red flag in the beginning. But for me personally, I babysat for his family. His wife worked evenings. Mm-hmm. So one night after he came home, he asked me to go to his basement and listen to a song by Neil Diamond. [00:10:00] Well, it felt a little weird 'cause I'd never. I've been around a pastor that wanted to talk to me about anything but church in the Bible. But I went to the basement. Yeah. I mean a Neil Diamond song. So I went to the basement. I know, but that's a trigger factor for me sometimes. So anyway, I went to the basement and he put this record on and I sat down on the couch and instead of sitting in a chair or another place, he came on the couch and sat very close to me. And I remember feeling uncomfortable, but I didn't say anything. 'cause I thought, well, he is just sitting next to me. It's no big deal. But that's a red flag that I felt because it felt uncomfortable to me. And then the other times that I would babysit for him. His wife wouldn't come home till late in the evening, so he would come home around seven or eight and after the kids were in bed, instead of taking me home, he wanted me to sit and talk with him all evening. So we'd talk about the Bible or we'd talk about church, and sometimes he'd ask me what I thought of his [00:11:00] sermon, which at age 16, I'm flattered that this man has any idea that I would have some opinion about this great sermon that he just gave. So I didn't see anything wrong with that because he's my pastor. But had that occurred with my 30-year-old neighbor down the street, every time I went to babysit, I know I would've come home to my mother and said, okay, this is weird. Mm-hmm. Every time I babysit, this man wants to sit and talk to me all evening. I mean, what interest would I have as a teenager wanting to talk to this 30-year-old married man? But because my pastor was who he was and he tapped into our common connection of the church and God, and again, many times he would give me books to read 'cause he wanted me to get better in my deep, in my spirituality. So I didn't see anything wrong with it because of who he was. And so I just accepted that behavior, which is another tool and technique. They look for ways to get into you. Mm-hmm. [00:12:00] That don't seem obvious. And that was, so those were two red flags for me. Now as far as the congregation goes, I was in his office a lot by myself, but so were other kids, because he would actually call us into his office and say, I want you to come in and tell me what's going on in your life. Talk to me about your problems. Instead of us going to him, he would encourage us to come into his office. So while that probably wasn't a good thing, no one saw it as a bad thing. It seemed normal, but he called me into his office a lot more than the other kids. And later on there were people who did say to me, there were times when I wondered why he said something to you like that, or I noticed something one time. And so I think people notice some things, but no one thought enough of it to say, okay, there's something going on that doesn't seem right. So those were the red flags that I think in the beginning were very subtle. But they were hard to see, [00:13:00] and this is really important to distinguish these things because I was groomed by a guidance counselor in seventh grade. Mm-hmm. But he was one of those dirty old men that, he was doing creepy stuff. Yeah. But I never would have seen myself. A pastor and he's talking about spiritual things and he's talking about God and mm-hmm. He's not talking about sex. He's not watching, you're not watching dirty movies together. No, he's not, buying you sexy lingerie. It's, Hey, he's doing spiritual things. Mm-hmm. It's a setup. It's that grooming process you're talking about. It's pulling someone in to gain their trust, in a very di diabolical way, because he's using the church to do that. That's really scary. That scares mm-hmm. Scares me to death. What were the first times that he did something really inappropriate that you were just like, whoa? Well, the very [00:14:00] first time, was after a youth group meeting that was held in my home. I was the song leader. He put me in a leadership position, and it was very important to him that the evening always go well and that we were to make people feel welcome. And so at the end of the evening, I was nervous because I wanted to make sure that he thought everything went well. And he came up to me in my hallway and began telling me how great the evening was and how proud he was of me. And I was on Cloud nine. I was flattered that he felt that way. I felt good that the evening went so well. And then he just slowly bent down and he kissed me. And it wasn't, it was a kiss, but it seemed somewhat innocent to some extent. And I, I remember thinking, I think he just kissed me. Then my next thought was, well, he's my pastor and I don't think he would be doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And it was just a quick kiss. And he's always hugging people. And so maybe this is just his way of showing his appreciation for the evening. It was really [00:15:00] the only way in my 16-year-old mind that I could justify it because I couldn't think about this man doing anything he shouldn't be doing. And this was a person that everyone loved and thought so highly of, so how could I think he was doing something he shouldn't be doing? So I just let it go. I didn't think anything more about it. I mean, did you have any sex ed or anything? Did you know the birds and bees? Nine. Well, yeah, I'm 16. I did. Yeah, I did. But I wasn't, I hadn't dated much. I wasn't allowed to date till I was 16, so I hadn't had any dating experience. I had one kiss before this with a boy at camp. So I wasn't. Worldly or knowledgeable about all those things. But, and again, it was such a quick innocent type kiss. He didn't grab me, he didn't push me against the wall. I just, and again, I think for me it was okay if he's, if this is more than just a kiss, then what do I do with it? So therefore I'm just gonna say it's [00:16:00] nothing because I don't know what else to do. Um, wow. I let it go. I let it go. But as I babysat for him, he, sometimes when I would leave, he would kiss me and sometimes he wouldn't. So, I didn't see it as a con, kind of a continual thing that he was always wanting to kiss me. He always hugged me. But the kissing became more intense as it went along. So it, it would be another year, before he would have sex with me. And so that grooming process and kind of pushing the boundaries each time he was with me, finally ended with him having sex with me. Oh, wow. Now, some of us listening are like an adult having sex with a child or 16-year-old. Can you unpack that a little bit more, the process of how he got to that point? I mean, that the first time you had intercourse, I mean, did he, you know, go to a hotel with you and you had a candlelight dinner, or was it in the backseat of the car?[00:17:00] Was it an accident? It wasn't an accident. He was very deliberate and I had every intentions of having sex with me that night. I babysat, I was babysitting, I put the kids to bed, I walked down the steps. I assumed that we would go into the living room. Or the family room, sit on the couch and talk about the things we always talked about. But instead, he stopped me at the bottom of the stairs and he took me into the living room, and immediately put me on the floor and began undressing me. Um, and wow, I froze. I, I literally froze and I kept thinking to myself, he's going to stop. He's going to stop. And that the entire time he's whispering into my ear how much he loves me, that he would never hurt me, and that he can, I can trust him. And then he kept asking me, do you love me? Do you love me? And I, of course, I'm answering yes, because well, yes I do, because that's what I've told him for the past year. I, I, I just, I was so confused and what my real reaction was, I froze. Mm-hmm. Um, he, he sort of pushed my head under the [00:18:00] stereo. And so when he is starting to get farther than I thought he would ever go. I blocked, I just blocked it out and I started reading the serial numbers underneath the stereo. Oh my goodness. Just to be thinking of anything else. Um, at one point he then just picked me up and took me upstairs. He literally put me on the bed, penetrated me, and that was it. And I was horrified. I was absolutely horrified. I, I wanted to cry. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. Um, he left the room, told me to get dressed, and he would take me home. And I remember sitting on the bed and I put the bedspread around me because I was so embarrassed that I didn't have my clothes on. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Um, and then I just remember thinking I just had sex. I'm no longer a virgin. I just had sex with this man and. He took me home. Now, in the [00:19:00] book, of course, I go into a little bit more detail, but Right, he took me home and just before I got outta the car, he said to me, now, you know, this is something between the two of us, you can't tell anyone. And of course I'm thinking, who would I tell? I, I don't want anybody to know. I just did this. So, that was the first time. And then I think I, at that point I kept thinking, you know, I've had sex with him. So now I'm committed to him again. I'm at this point, I'm 17 years old. I'm still like, what do I do with this? I don't, I don't know what to do with this. Um, and he was convincing me that he loved me. He was convincing me that he needed me in his ministry and that God, this was God's will in our lives. He threw that at me. Eventually he would say to me that we were married in God's eyes. I mean, twisting the scripture and using God as a reason that we should be together. And so. I started to accept that. There were a couple times I went to him and told him that I couldn't do this anymore. I felt [00:20:00] guilty. He would respond in one of two ways. One, he would say to me how much he needed me, how much he loved me, and that he couldn't live without me. So that was the guilt part of it. Or he would respond and by saying to me, you know, you're no longer a virgin. No one else is gonna want you. I'm the only one that knows how to love you, and you are committed to me, and this is gonna be the way it is. And I saw no way out. I didn't see a way out. And so the relationship continued for five years. Wow. Five years. It went on for five years. That is a long time. And it, during that time, he became more aggressive physically. Uh, he hit me. He became sexually more deviant. It just progressed. It got worse and worse. And to a point that I finally, I was, my self-esteem was so low. I hated myself for what I'd been doing. So I finally just accepted that this was my life. I knew [00:21:00] I'd never get married. I knew I'd never have children, and this wouldn't be over until he said it was over. This went on for five years and nobody in the church noticed it. Your parents didn't notice it. You know, people say, well, where were your parents? Well, first of all, my parents were thrilled. I was in church. I mean, this was a time in the seventies when drugs were. Prevalent girls were, having free sex. So for them, what safer place could there be than to be in church? So, and they saw his intention toward me and his involvement with me as a good thing. I mean, he would take me on hospital visits with him. I mean, they saw this as being positive. And they knew how much I loved being there and that it was a place that I liked to go. So they didn't see it. And many in the church didn't see it began because who suspects the pastor of such behavior. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And especially in the seventies when this wasn't an open topic like it is now, you wouldn't have dared thought anything like that. And so [00:22:00] it's not uncommon for people in the church, to miss the signs and to ignore what they really do see, because they just can't believe that it would be something that would be happening in their church because then they'd have to do something about it. Yes, exactly. When did it all come crumbling down? It does crumble. Eventually it does. Two elders became suspicious and followed him one night and found us together in a hotel room. And then from then on, the next month and a half was an absolute nightmare for me. Hmm. It was initially hoped that they could keep what he had done, quiet and keep it from the congregation. Now, I have to say one thing before I forget. This wasn't his first incident of sexual misconduct. Oh. Prior to and just after he was awri, he arrived at our church. A young woman from his first church came forward and accused him of sexual misconduct. When he was [00:23:00] confronted by my elders, he didn't deny it. He said it was true. He asked for forgiveness, that it would never happen again. It was a mistake. So within six months. That's when he was kissing me in my hallway. So this, so these elders were aware that this was the second time that there had been an incident with this man of sexual abuse and misconduct. But in spite of that, they tried to keep it quiet in hopes of moving him to another church. And so I was told during that time where I was to sit, how I was to respond to questions. I wasn't to talk to anyone. I wasn't to tell anyone about what had happened, including my parents. And this was all in an effort to keep it quiet. Well, that effort failed. And so it was determined that he should address the congregation. He did it in a very vague way, just simply said that he'd sinned. He'd sinned against God, and he'd sinned against his wife. And that was his confession. That was it. Two days later, he had me meet [00:24:00] him in a hotel room after that confession in front of the congregation. Now. He was moved to the next church. He was given a going away party. There was actually a vote to maybe keep him, but the vote failed and they decided to move him to the next church. About, two weeks, three weeks later, I was called in by the elders, and this is probably the hardest part of my story for me. Mm-hmm. I was called in by the elders and I was told that because of my behavior I was to leave the church. I was devastated. I loved that church. It was the only church I knew, and here I was being told by these two elders that I wasn't fit to worship there any longer. Mm-hmm. He could be forgiven and given a second, third chance. I couldn't be, I was told that to leave the church. I wasn't given any counseling. I wasn't helped in any way. I was simply told to leave and I did. I left. [00:25:00] And that I told people many times, as horrific as the abuse was, having been told to leave, that church had a greater impact on me spiritually than the actual abuse did. I don't think I ever recovered from that. It still haunts me to this day to some extent. That response of the church really devastated me. So that was the crumbling, as you called it? It came crashing down and I would, I left the church. So did that change your perception of God? What was your relationship with God this time? Yes. You were kicked outta the church, but. Well, I felt a disconnect from God. I never blamed God. I never felt like God caused this to happen. I, in fact, I carry the blame and the shame. I felt guilty for what I had done. And so I never blamed God, but because of the relationship being tied in with God and the [00:26:00] prayers that this man would give, and then, you know, he'd give these wonderful sermons about marriage and sanctity of marriage on a Sunday morning after having sex with me the night before. I had difficulty separating all of that, and there were so many trigger factors associated with the church and prayer that God really did. It was hard for me to have any kind of relationship with God. I did. I didn't become an atheist like a lot of victims do, and who become angry at God. I simply just. I just put him on the back burner. I knew he existed, but I didn't have a connection with him any longer. So for 27 years, I, I never prayed. I never opened my Bible. I went to church because when I met my husband, he was a Methodist. And I thought, well, I'll go to the Methodist Church. It's a different denomination. Mm-hmm. I'll just go on. It should be fine. It didn't work that way. I had anxiety attacks in church. I, his [00:27:00] reminders of him were constant, but I forced myself to go. I made sure that I went because I knew when we had children, I wanted them to have that church experience. But every time I walked past the minister's office, I got a knot in my stomach. Oh yeah. It had nothing to do with that minister. But you understand that. I mean, it, but I did that for 27 years. It became my norm. I just knew that when I walked past that office, I was gonna get a knock my stomach, certain hymns. I can tell you what his favorite hymn was, and every time that was played, that's who I thought of. I couldn't pray. It was so, I did have a deep, deep disconnect for 27 years, and I have to tell you, I missed it. I actually mourn that loss of my spiritual life, but I didn't know how to get it back. Because I'm keeping this secret. I'm still carrying guilt and shame. I couldn't forgive myself. I didn't feel worthy to be in church. So with all of that mixed in, I just put myself on autopilot and said, [00:28:00] well, this is the way my life will be and I'll just have to accept it. It just sounds so unfair. Somebody that loves the Lord so much and served in the church and so innocent and being kicked out. Oh, but it sounded like maybe meeting your husband would've been a positive thing for you. How did you guys meet? I actually worked at his office, so I met him there. We dated for about two years, and I just found him to be a kind, loving soul. He was very unassuming. He wasn't arrogant. He didn't, he wasn't a boastful type of person. He didn't like taking credit for things, even though he deserved it sometimes. He was just a good hearted person, and I just, I fell in love with him immediately. I really did. I thought this was a great, great guy. I mean, I will tell you, I have said many times because before I met him, I was on a destructive path. I did not have any self-esteem. [00:29:00] I saw myself just simply as some sex object that, I was only good for that. And so when I met him, he saved my life because he loved me for who I was and showed me that I was worthy. So I've often said to him, you saved my life, and he will respond back with you made mine, and you can't get any better than that. So meeting him was a turning point for me, but I kept a secret from him for 27 years, and I lived in fear that he'd always find out that I'd had this affair with a married man. And I know in my heart that it wouldn't have made a difference to him. But people who've been abused never forget the words, don't ever tell. And I never forgot those words. And I never forgot what the consequences could be if I were to tell someone. Because when my elders found out, they blamed me. And I, I couldn't bear the thought that if I were to tell him. [00:30:00] Somehow he would find fault with me, or I wondered, would he wonder why I didn't feel confident enough to tell him? Would he feel betrayed that I kept a secret? Would he see me differently sexually? All those fears that I had while unfounded were still present in my mind. And so I never could tell him. And I had to do a lot of play acting and pretending, through our married life in the sense that the times I was having trigger factors, I had to hide them. And I know he would've been supportive, but I couldn't see that. Because while trauma affects you at the time of the abuse, it's lifelong. It doesn't leave you. And so I lived with that for 27 years. So did you have. Intimacy issues when you were together? Was that what you're talking about? The triggering? No, I, know a lot of victims do, and that's understandable. I really didn't, because he was so different from my abuser [00:31:00] and I recognized that my abuser was emotionally violent mm-hmm. And physically, he just wasn't loving in any sense of the word. I was simply used for sex. Mm-hmm. And I didn't have that with my husband. And so I could separate that a little bit. But I think the guilt of hiding the secret had an impact on our marriage as far as my able to be intimate with him in an emotional way. I'm really glad to hear that. I, you are not the first person that I've heard that. The victim has hidden a secret from her husband. I passed her and a pastor's wife and her husband did not know. Mm-hmm. Children didn't know, and it was a family member that was the abuser. And I kept telling her, you've got to tell him. Mm-hmm. You know why? It's because, and I was thinking this when I was listening to your, the other shows that you were on. I'm thinking about your children and your grandchildren. If I was abused, [00:32:00] I would be like. How do I keep my children and grandchildren from going through what I just went through, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's an interesting thing because most people would assume that my daughter, I would've been all over it and worried sick every time she left the house. Yeah. But I actually had the opposite, reaction because keep in mind, I didn't see myself as an abuse victim. I saw myself as someone who participated, who willingly went into this relationship and stayed in it willingly, which is not the case when you're abused. There's the control, the manipulation, all of those things that play into keeping a victim in a relationship and they see no way out. So for me, I just assumed I got one bad apple in the whole barrel, that this didn't happen to other people and that I had an affair. But my daughter, who I knew, she would never have an affair with a married man, I just knew that. So I. Sent her on [00:33:00] retreats. I sent her to church camp without fear because again, I'm thinking, okay, this just doesn't happen to other people and this is not something I need to be concerned about with her. However, with my granddaughters, it's totally different because now I understand what really occurred and the damage that can occur when you've been abused. And so with my granddaughters, her mom and dad have talked to them, about good touch, bad touch. And I too have talked about to her, but I've been a little bit more probably detailed about it. Mm-hmm. And as she gets older, these men, the techniques change as you get older and they, after they go after teenage girls, so mm-hmm. Hopefully I'll be able to help her understand, what happens when someone's grooming. I want her to understand her personal space, that if you're not comfortable when someone hugs you, it's okay. That's right. Say I, I don't want you to touch me that way. Mm-hmm. Or say if they don't feel comfortable and we put a lot on kids to do that. 'cause here [00:34:00] we're asking a child to say to an adult, no. Mm-hmm. So it's okay to go to your mother or your mom and say, can you tell so and so Uncle Jimmy or whoever it is, I don't wanna be hugged. So we need to make sure our kids understand that their personal space is their space. And if they don't want someone in that space, it's okay to say no. I also think it's important to tell kids that good people can do bad things. Yeah. Because, as we talked about earlier, our abusers are not strangers. They're not mean people. Mm-hmm. They're usually good people. They're usually people who've given us gifts. They're people who help us. They're people who tell us how wonderful we are. So it's hard for children, even adults, to see this individual who. Who on one side is a good individual who does a lot in the church, who's done all these wonderful things. And so we, we have to tell these kids, just because they're a good person doesn't mean they can't do bad things. And so that's kind of the message I hope to get to my granddaughters that I didn't give to my [00:35:00] daughter. And fortunately she didn't have any issues with church or any, anybody abusing her. But I certainly did not, guide her in the right way in that sense because I just, like I said, I just assumed that I was the only one that this would ever have happened to. Well, I think, I hear a lot in the church that they don't teach sex ed because they don't want the kids to go out and have sex. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these kids are like ignorant as to, what is healthy and what is not proper, yeah. We need to teach 'em that our bodies or are going to respond. They were built that way. God intended us to have feelings. You know, when we are around the opposite sex, that's normal. Mm-hmm. So we need to make sure kids understand. But there are barriers and there are boundaries that need to be taken. But you're absolutely right when we don't talk at it, then we figure it out on their own. And we could, we can all imagine when you're leaving teenagers to [00:36:00] their own devices to figure out things. That's probably not gonna lead in a good spot. No, we have the internet now, which when we, right. When you and I were younger, we didn't have the internet. We didn't have cell phones. No. If you wanted a Playboy magazine, you had to go to that kind of a neighborhood to get something. Yes. You know? Yes. It was a lot more difficult. Yes, absolutely. But too many parents are embarrassed to talk to their children about sex and, you know, everybody listening needs to listen. You need to find a way to talk to them about these things. And one of the techniques that I use with my daughter, just in talking about sex in general, kids don't want to hear their mom and dad talk to 'em about this. So what I did would say, I read a magazine article about this girl who did such and such so that I put it off on something else that's, a non-entity of a person. And I'll say, or Have you ever heard of this? And of course I know she's got a little embarrassed, but I, it opened the dialogue without me coming [00:37:00] out and saying, have you heard of oral sex? Instead, I would talk to her and say, I heard this about this. This is what kids are doing, blah, blah, blah. So you kind of have to find techniques and ways to sneak around it sometimes, but you absolutely need to talk to, because they know it's out there and they're going to experiment. That's just part of being a teenager. Yeah, my parents chickened out. They just gave me a book to read. Same, probably the same book. I got, I forget what it was called. Where did I come from? Or something. It was a cartoon book. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful for that. And, they just, after I finished the book, do you have any questions? Yeah, yeah. I had a lot of, older people that were friends and I would actually go to my older. Senior citizen friends and ask them questions rather than ask my parents. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's more comfortable that way for sure. Like I said, it's not the topic that we like to talk to with our kids and our kids don't wanna hear it, but being uncomfortable is not an excuse not to do that. And in school you get [00:38:00] the basics of the mechanics of it, but then that ends, that's all you get there as well. And that's not as helpful either. Yeah. The sixth grade menstrual cycle, health class. Yeah, exactly. That's it. They separate the girls and the boys. Yeah. We were all really embarrassed and Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Great information. So let's, circle around back to, okay, you've been hiding this secret forever. Mm-hmm. And nobody knows about your past. And then one day you got triggered. So what happened that day? Well, that's the first chapter of my book, and that is one day I was driving to a golf tournament in Tennessee. We live in Cincinnati. I was driving, my daughter was in college. She was playing in a golf tournament. I was driving down there and I was about halfway when I saw an exit sign for the town of Kingsport, Tennessee. And that is the. Town to which my [00:39:00] abuser was sent after he left our church, and it just sent me over the edge. Mm-hmm. All of a sudden I'm thinking, I'm in the town where he lives. Am I close to his house? Am I close to the church where he's now a minister? I mean, even though it'd been 27 years, I thought he was probably still there. I didn't know, but that's what my mind was telling me. I, all of a sudden I felt his presence in the car. I, I could smell him. I could hear him. Oh. I was, it was unbelievable to me what was happening to me. I didn't even know what was happening. I pulled to the side of the road Oh, good. And I sobbed. Yeah. I sobbed for about 20 minutes and I was just trying to figure out what was happening because anytime I had trigger factors before I could manage them, I could control them. I kind of let them happen and then I push 'em back down. Mm-hmm. This one wasn't going back down and I was a mess. I was just an absolute mess. I was able to get through the weekend. I drove back home and all I could think about was, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? [00:40:00] I wanted to stop thinking about him and I couldn't. I spent the next two weeks, really in anxiety. I, my husband would leave for work and I would just walk around the house, wring my hands, trying to figure out why I was feeling the way I was feeling. What was I gonna do with these feelings till at one point I finally decided I was gonna tell my best friend, and I was absolutely petrified to tell her because for the first time in 27 years, I was going to utter the words. I was sexually abused by my youth pastor. And I remember thinking, he's gonna find out and I'm gonna get in trouble. I just, I was 49 years old and I'm still afraid of this man. But I did tell her, it was, it took me a long time to, to get the words out, but I did, she was very supportive. She was very kind. She was patient as she waited for me to tell her. And so that started my journey of healing just by telling that first person. I then told two or three other of my close friends, so the four of us spent [00:41:00] many days and many hours on the screened in porch of one of my friends just letting me talk. Mm-hmm. And being able to express what had happened to me. I wasn't ready to tell all of the story. I mean, there's parts in the book that I won't go into here because they're pretty mm-hmm. Embarrassing and some things that I did. So I wasn't ready to tell them everything, but I told them enough that it helped me start to release what had been done to me. And so that was the first thing that I did, I think. And then the next thing I did, which was so valuable, and I encouraged victims to do it as well, I just read everything I could on clergy abuse or sexual abuse in itself. So I began to learn the terms of grooming, manipulation, gaslighting, and then I could see how he methodically used each one of those things on me to get me to do the things he got me to do, and to stay in that relationship for those five years. And that was huge for me. So [00:42:00] it was, for the first time as I began reading, I understood that I had been abused. Now, it still took me a while to admit that I really was sexually abused because I didn't want that label. I didn't wanna be an abuse victim. And there was a part of me. We all wanna be loved. And so there was still a part of me that I wanted to think that there was some part of him that cared about me, that this wasn't just purely about sex and that he wasn't just using me for his own gratification. And I had to get past that. I had to finally come to terms with, no, this man didn't do the no one who loves you, would do the things he did and ask the things he did of me. So that took me a while, to finally admit, okay, this was an abusive relationship. So I told someone, educating myself, and then I had to learn to forgive myself. I had to let, I had to let go of the guilt [00:43:00] and shame because any guilt and shame belongs squarely on him. This was a man that I should have been able to trust. It was in a place that should have been the safest place on earth for me. And he took advantage of a vulnerable teenager who had, I didn't have a major crisis in my life, but he knew my home life was an upheaval at times. He knew that I didn't see my dad very much. So he used that to against me. And I had to forgive myself for being who I was at the time and being able to respond the way I did for the coping skills I had at the time. Sure. You can look back. I, and I think, why didn't I say this? Why didn't I do that? But I couldn't because of, of the re of the relationship he had created between us. Mm-hmm. I had lost all power. He was in complete control of this relationship, so I had to forgive myself and that wasn't easy either. Then, and I don't know that this is something all victims should do, but I just felt this need [00:44:00] that I needed to confront him. I just felt like I couldn't move past this unless I was able to face him. Now, I had no contact with him for 27 years. I didn't even know if he was still alive, but I hired a private investigator and he found him ministering in a church in Alabama. And so I had my investigator contact him and we set up a time and a meeting that we would meet. And I took my husband, I took my friend who was a counselor and another friend who was at the church at the time. Um, I wanted her at this point. You told your husband at this point, I'm sorry. Yes, that's correct. I, it was probably three months after I told my friends, that I said to him I would like to meet him in his office and talked to him about something and. I was terrified. I don't know how else to say it. I just was so afraid. Not that I needed to be, but I was. And I probably sat there for almost, [00:45:00] I would say, 40 minutes and just cried. I was able to finally get out. I'm okay, the kids are okay, and then I started crying again. He couldn't have been any more supportive, more loving. I remember looking at his face and I said I was sexually abused by my youth pastor, and he didn't. His expression didn't change, and then I said. I was their babysitter and his face just dropped. And for the first time, I could see the pain I was feeling was reflected in his face. It was, I almost wanted to hug him to say, I'm sorry. 'cause I could see how much it hurt him to know that this had been done to me, especially as a baby. I mean, the picture became complete for him once I said that. And so he was very supportive. I think he was worried about me confronting this man, for a couple reasons. But one, I think he was worried that I would be disappointed in his reaction, and that I would be expecting too much of this [00:46:00] person to understand what he did to me and show any kind of remorse, and that I, it would hurt me even more. And one of my fears was that, I was afraid he wouldn't meet me. I was afraid that he was gonna say, no, I'm not gonna meet with you. And my husband said, oh, he's gonna meet with you all right? Because if he doesn't meet with you, you just tell him. Call the church secretary. We'll call every elder. We're gonna, he, somebody's gonna hear your story if he doesn't want to hear it. So he did agree to meet with me. I went down to Alabama and the meeting took place and I said the things that I wanted to say to him. I wanted him to get what he did to me. But he didn't, he never could understand the damage. It was almost as if, okay, I shouldn't have done it and I'm sorry I did it. Okay, now what do you want? It was, get away. You bother me? Yes. And his greatest fear as most narcissist, and I believe he was, narcissistic, but his greatest fear was that I was going to demand that he be removed from the ministry. I mean, that's what he [00:47:00] was most concerned about, how this was going to impact him. And he should have been out of the ministry. So I went to his. Boss. I was told this, and something happened 27 years ago. He, we think he's safe. We're not worried, in spite of the fact that during the meeting he had admitted that there had been multiple occurrences of sexual misconduct throughout his ministry. Not all teenagers, some were most were probably women. And then he said he had gone to therapy because he had been identified as a sexual addict. And I kept thinking, who, what? What world, what world? Does this make sense that a man who has been identified by a psychologist as a sex addict belongs in the ministry? Nope. But here was this church. So I sent a letter to his 11 elders thinking, okay, somebody in this eldership is gonna see this. Is I something's wrong here. Not one responded totally [00:48:00] ignored me. 11 elders totally ignored me. Wow. No worries. So then, I decided to go to his denominational leaders, which were in Indianapolis. And there again, while they were sympathetic to my story and apologize that it happened, they said, we're an independent church. Our churches hire and fire their own ministers. We have no control and if they choose to keep this man, we can do nothing about it. And so what, I was shut down and basically I had no place else to go. I had pretty much. Done everything I could do. And it wasn't my place in the man that he be removed. I expected the church to be, the church was to do the right thing. Exactly. I assumed so naively that once they heard my story and once they understood the background of this man, surely someone would say, this isn't right. But again, keep in mind he's very charismatic. He brings in [00:49:00] people, he brings in money. And to be fair, and probably I'm being a little too gracious, these men are very good at manipulating not only the victim but the congregation as well. They're very good at getting control of the congregation so that they find themselves following this man no matter what he would do. Yeah. And that's basically what happened. There was going to be, I got a four page letter from his boss telling me that, know, I'm going to. Ruin this church if I continue on this path and that I'm going to feel all this guilt because I'm gonna be responsible for the damage that I will do to pe people's spiritual lives. I mean that, it was an incredible, I put the letter in the book, I, because it is so incredibly, hard to believe that someone write that to a victim of abuse. Just So that was What year did that happen? 2004. Okay. So we did have. We did have the internet. Oh, yes. And this was after the Catholic, [00:50:00] church had their, exposure of sexual abuse within their church. So yes, this was, it was out there for sure. This wasn't something that you would think, oh, I can't believe this happened. And again, he had admitted to these past instances. I mean, this wasn't someone who was saying, oh, I don't know what she's talking about. Or, oh, this is the only time it ever happened. He had been in therapy because he was a sexual addict, So he wasn't registered as a sex offender? I guess not. And in my case, at the time of the abuse, the age of consent was 16. So I had no legal recourse because of I was either legally age of consent. Now that has been changed in Ohio. It's now 18. It's now 18, but many states it's still 16. There are several states where the age of consent is 16. Now, the interesting about that is. His contact sexual contact with me was not considered a crime. However, if he had been my high school teacher, it would've been a crime. What, so pastors I know [00:51:00] does not make sense. It does not make a leg of sense. No, it does not. So it, they don't consider him a teacher. They don't cons, they don't, they considered an affair. A mutual. Relationship if he'd been my teacher, that's a different story. So yeah, I had no legal recourse. And that was frustrating. But I couldn't change that. So it was what it was. I just had to accept that he, yes, he belonged in jail. Yes, there's no doubt and should be registered as a sex offender, but I'm not so sure that even if he's registered as a sex offender, these people in Alabama and wherever he is now, would. Even take that as a concern. Well, you know, the millennials now, they'll just, they just post stuff on Facebook and Twitter and call the evening news and they have, yes. News people at their doorstep, right. Ready to mm-hmm. Track this guy's name through the mud. Mm-hmm. But you didn't choose to do that, I guess. No, you know, I'm very careful about naming him in the sense that, part of my story is that I [00:52:00] reconnected with his wife. She actually divorced him after they moved, because again, he committed sexual misconduct. She was 20, I think, at the time, so it wasn't a minor, but that's beside the point. This is a man in a position that, a professional who does not cross boundaries like that. So, to no one surprise, he committed sexual misconduct the third time, so she divorced him. And part of, I guess letting go of some of the guilt that I felt, I wanted to. Connect with her to at least tell her, not that I was responsible for what happened, but how very sorry I was for her pain and suffering as well because she was part of the youth group. I mean, she was there at the church all the time. We sang in the choir together. So it was like I had a relationship with her. Oh wow. To some extent. And of course when, we were found, when he was found out by the elders, she was upset and she of course, didn't wanna have anything to do with me, which is understandable. So I actually think I [00:53:00] also wanted to give her the opportunity to say whatever she felt she needed to say to me if she wanted to. I mean, I didn't know what she was gonna say or react. I thought maybe she'd hang up on me. I didn't know. So I called her one day. My investigator found her phone number and gave it to me, and she couldn't have been any more gracious. I, she never blamed me. She understood as she, as the years went on, what this really was just like I did. She's remarried. She's has a wonderful husband now. And so I visited her several times. We keep in contact. And so part of my not wanting to expose him too much is that it would be hurtful to her. And he does have children. Now. I know that, well, whatever consequences are as a result of this are all on him, but I don't feel the need to add to that. That's not my purpose in speaking out. And so, mm-hmm. I've gone to his church leaders, I've done everything I can to get him removed from the ministry. And nothing, it's just [00:54:00] he's still, I don't know that he's still a pastor, but he still remains in good standing within that denomination to this day. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we have to just let God. Right. Dish out the justice. It may not be in our timeline, it may not be the way that we think it should happen, but Right. He's not gonna get away with this. No. And again, I did my part. Yes. So my conscience is clear and I am able to say I did what I could do and whether or not they removed him, I certainly hope that I maybe put some doubt in some of their minds and maybe questioned their motives in keeping this man. I don't know. But, I feel I did what I could do and I feel good about that. I feel good about that. Absolutely, you should. And what I'm really interested in is, you're trying to keep this stuff from happening to other people, so, I mean, what can we do to prevent some of this stuff? Well, it's [00:55:00] difficult again, because these men are among us as wolves in sheep's clothing, and so they're difficult to spot. But a couple things. I think the first thing I would tell people is if something doesn't seem right. Keep your antenna up. Don't just ignore it or just don't think, oh, well that can't be true because he's the pastor. Mm-hmm. If it's behavior that you wouldn't accept in someone else, or it's something that you would question in someone else, then question it in the pastor or the choir director, whoever it is. Don't be blinded by the person. The persona that they're presenting to you. So that's the first thing I would say is keep your antenna up. The other thing is we, and we're churches, I think are doing better about this, but you've got to have policies in place that say, no, you're not taking a 16-year-old girl on your hospital visit with you. Yes. That's, that's not normal. That's not right. What is she doing going on a hospital visit with you in a car? And of course now we have the texting [00:56:00] and there should be absolutely no texting between a pastor, a youth minister, and anyone in the congregation. And that includes, no, don't forget the meeting for the church luncheon. No, there should be no texting because you, it's too hidden and it's too easily moved to the next step. And that's how it starts. You know, all of the abuse when it's someone you know, it always starts with small things and subtle things. It doesn't, innocent things. Innocent things that, yeah, that, that are innocent. But so that's why, so no texting. Yeah. So put in the policy, those places of, when you take a 10-year-old child to the bathroom, you make sure there's another adult with you. Absolutely. That's for your safety as well as for the child's safety. Mm-hmm. So I, I think we need to be aware. And then I would also say watch for the vulnerable in your, among your church or your group. Watch for the kid that's got issues at home and is looking for a father figure. Be aware that they're going to be more susceptible to someone who's a predator and pay [00:57:00] attention to their cues and kind of keep in touch with them as well in a sense of asking questions and how they're doing and be the kind of a person that they might feel comfortable coming to if something were to happen to them because they're the ones that are gonna be most vulnerable, to a predator. So that's kind of, an overview of what. Maybe a help to try and stop and prevent some of this. Yes, I like lots of video cameras. They're cheap now. You can put a camera, you can hide cameras all over the church facility and Yes. And I think too, talking to this about this issue to the congregation before anything happens, maybe having a person in your congregation who is the go-to person on this topic, who, who's researched what all these grooming and manipulation is so that they are even more equipped to, to notice the signs. So you have a person who's kind of in charge of that topic and then address it to the congregation once a year and say, here's our policy and here's what we expect of our pastors and here's what we would hope you would [00:58:00] do if you notice something. So it just brings it out so that people feel like if there is something that they know is going on or something's wrong, they feel comfortable going to someone about it. Those are all really great tips for leaders and, church members. So what, what if I am listening and I am being subjected to some of this stuff, what should I do? Well, what you need to do and what is the hardest thing to do is to tell someone. Yeah. And it's hard to do because when you're in an abusive relationship, you are being controlled by your abuser. And the narrative is what he is directing. And so he's going to tell you, look, you can tell anybody you want. They're not gonna believe you. And he tells you that over and over again. He's also going to tell you that you are going to be in trouble if you tell anyone. And then there's that problem of you sort [00:59:00] of care about this person. Here's someone that has been helping you, who's been your mentor, and you don't wanna get him in trouble. So with all those dynamics involved, it's very difficult for victims to come forward. But I am telling you, you don't wanna wait the 27 years that I did no. And live with this guilt and the shame and the angst and the anxiety. First of all, it's not worth it. You're not doing anyone any favors, especially yourself, because there is help out there. But they can only help you if you're able to be able to tell someone. And believe me, I understand how difficult that is. It's not easy. Mm-hmm. But I would hope that I hearing my story and others that you will understand that there is help out there and you need to tell someone. 'cause it won't end until you tell someone. And if you need to, you go to someone that you trust. And if you need to, you go outside the church. Yes. You tell someone you know is going to listen to you. [01:00:00] Hey, I tell my listeners, you can call me anytime mm-hmm. And email me and I'm sure you'd say the same thing. Exactly. Reach out to Sandy if mm-hmm. You need somebody to talk to. Mm-hmm. Or you don't know what is the next step I need to take here? Right. It is scary to make First step. It's very scary. Very scary. Absolutely. So then there's the rest of us, those that have not experienced clergy abuse, maybe we're members in the church, maybe we're friends or family. What are some helpful things for us to do to support a victim? Helpful things to say, maybe there's things we shouldn't say, well, that's a yes. First, I would say anytime you're aware of a victim of clergy abuse or anybody who's been abused, whether it's clergy or not, reiterate to that victim that it was not their fault and that there was nothing they could have done, should have done that would've prevented this. And by doing that, you are [01:01:00] telling that person they're free to speak to you. And victims need to hear it over and over again because we do blame ourselves. Children as young as five will blame themselves because they allowed someone to touch them 'cause mommy said not to. And the that guilt in that shame that victims carry, it's difficult to let go of it. So to hear someone say to us, it's not your fault is so freeing. So that's the first thing. The second thing I would say is. Let them know that you will listen to them without judging them, and you will hear their story without being shocked that you are able to say, tell me everything you need to tell me, or Tell me as little as you wanna tell me. Give them a comfort place to go to talk. And then I would say, and this is difficult for people who have spiritual lives or who are part of the church, be very much aware that things such as prayer and Bible reading and [01:02:00] scripture can be very triggering for those who've been abused in the church. Mm-hmm. So things that you would find comforting like prayer. Can be a very major trigger factor for victims. And so instead of saying to a victim, I'll pray for you, or Can I pray with you? The best thing you could say would be to phrase it in such a way as to say, I understand because of what you've been through, prayer can be difficult. And so I would like to pray for you, but I would completely understand if you don't want to pray or you won't, don't even want me to pray for you. And so you've opened up the door to say to this person, wow, I don't have to feel guilty because I can't pray. You know, when we've grown up in the church and we've been told how wonderful church and prayer and all those things are, we still carry that guilt too because we're no longer connected to God. So to have a person on the outside. Recognize that these can be trigger factors is again, a gift. It's a [01:03:00] gift. So those things I think would be the most helpful when dealing with a person of clergy abuse. And give them time. Don't push forgiveness. Don't push trying to get them back into church. 'cause some victims will never be able to go back to church if you let them find their own pace of time and you do it without judging them. And I know that's kind of hard sometimes for Christians and people in the church because we love the church and we find it to be such a wonderful place and we want this person back in the church. Yes. But it, it may not be the best place at that point for that victim. Such valuable advice. I That is awesome. And again, back to like, when you're talking about the sex education, open up the dialogue, you know? Yeah. Bring it up. Bring it up before they bring it up. Again, I read in the newspaper that this girl was molested by, a gym teacher. You know that, that ha I know that happens. And then let 'em know that if. It is, like you said, allowing that comfort to be able to [01:04:00] talk to someone. I think for me it was important to give my side of the story. No one had a clue that he was emotionally and verbally and physically abusive to me. They saw this as a little love affair and that we had this, magic little love affair. Evil temptress. Yes, exactly. And so I wanted them to know the full story. That was important for my healing too. And they did that. And, they welcomed me back to the church. I went back, I've been back a couple times for, a youth group reunion that we had. So, and that was difficult. But again, I thought that was necessary for me to move forward. I had to let go of my past. I had to figure out, not to forget it, but how was I going to incorpo

Margaret Mary O'Connor, a passionate advocate for transparency and reform within the Catholic Church, combines her deep faith with a tireless commitment to justice.   Holding a Bachelor of Science from the University of Buffalo and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry from Christ The King Seminary, Margaret Mary has served as a Chaplain and Eucharistic Minister, embodying her dedication to her spiritual calling.   Her advocacy is bold and unwavering. Margaret Mary actively participates in picket lines to bring attention to critical issues such as Women's Ordination and Church.   Accountability regarding priest sexual abuse. She firmly believes that all Catholics deserve the truth from the Church hierarchy rather than the deception that has persisted for too long.   As a member of organizations like Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women's Ordination Conference, and SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), she works tirelessly to inspire change.   Beyond her activism, Margaret Mary's involvement with Buffalo Central Terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, and the Western NY Land Conservancy showcases her dedication to preserving her community's cultural and natural heritage.   An accomplished public speaker, she received the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. When she's not advocating for reform or fostering community engagement, Margaret Mary enjoys gardening, Pilates, and delving into mystery books.   Her voice brings conviction, clarity, and an unshakable call for truth, making her an exceptional guest for conversations on faith, justice, and social change.   Learn More Here: http://www.yourradicaltruth.com/ ..... Want to be a guest on WITneSSes? Send Elisha Arowojobe a message on #PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/elishaarowojobe   Elevate your business with Anastasia's expert consulting. Use code Elisha3 for an exclusive offer and transform your business today! https://resurrectionmentor.wixsite.com/so/42PDEPEB8?languageTag=en  

"The Church, of course, is doing everything it can to silence victims." - Brendan Watkins EPISODE SUMMARY: In this episode of Unraveling Adoption, the host, Beth Syverson, interviews Brendan Watkins, an Australian adoptee who shares his emotional journey of discovering his origin story filled with religious intrigue. Brendan found out that his birth mother became pregnant in the 1950s and relinquished him for adoption, and later became a nun. He then discovered that his birth father was a Catholic priest. Brendan's memoir, Tell No One, sheds light on the challenges faced by children of priests and nuns. The episode delves into the complexities of adoption, the impact of secrecy and shame, and the need for awareness and support for individuals affected by such circumstances. Brendan emphasizes the importance of mental health support and seeking legal assistance for those in similar situations. The episode highlights the ongoing struggle for justice and recognition faced by children of priests and nuns, urging listeners to educate themselves and support those affected by these issues.  ===============

In this episode, VSC's Violence Prevention Educator, Hannah Jenarine sits with Sandy Phillips Kirkham to speak on the Dynamics of Clergy Abuse. Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” Purchase her book "Let Me Prey Upon You": https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/ ----------------------------------- Trigger Warning: In this podcast, we will be discussing sensitive topics such as Sexual Assault. It's important to take care of yourself while listening. Some suggestions are listening while you're in a healthy headspace or knowing who you can reach out to if you become upset. Our 24/7 helpline for crisis calls based out of Central Florida is 407 500 HEAL, for the Florida state sexual helpline call (888) 956-7273. By contacting the National Hotline at 1-800-656-4673 you can get support and learn about your local resources. There is always someone ready to help.

Sandy Phillips Kirkham is a survivor of clergy abuse and the author of, "Let Me Prey Upon You". Sandy was very active in her church growing up, her faith was the center of her life. When she was 16 her youth pastor groomed and manipulated her into a sexual relationship. After years of abuse she managed to exit the relationship and reclaim her life. Sandy kept her experience a secret for 27 years before she had to face it and begin her healing journey. Today Sandy is a strong advocate for survivors of clergy abuse as a board member of the Council Against Child Abuse and through her work with The Hope of Survivors. Today Sandy will be sharing her story, and we'll be discussing her incredibly powerful book.Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.”Sandy's Website: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/Sandy's Book: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/https://bookshop.org/p/books/let-me-prey-upon-you-breaking-free-from-a-minister-s-sexual-abuse-sandy-phillips-kirkham/13830913?ean=9781734195200The Hope of Survivors: http://www.thehopeofsurvivors.org/Council on Child Abuse: https://www.cocachild.org/GRACE: https://www.netgrace.org/SNAP: https://www.snapnetwork.org/Finding OK: https://www.finding-ok.com/Hecate's Links: https://linktr.ee/FindingOKSupport the podcast and become a Patreon member!https://www.patreon.com/HecateFindingOKFinding OK is funded entirely by the generosity of listeners like you!https://www.finding-ok.com/support/Letters for the Fire: https://www.finding-ok.com/blog/letters-for-the-fire-season-5/Thank you for listening. BLM. Take care of yourself

Faced with more than 500 lawsuits stemming from clergy sexual abuse, the San Francisco Catholic diocese last week said it had no choice but to seek Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone wrote, “the bankruptcy process is the best way to provide a compassionate and equitable solution” for abuse survivors. But victims say the bankruptcy is just a ploy to deprive them of justice and their day in court. San Francisco's move to seek bankruptcy relief follows similar filings by the Oakland and Santa Rosa dioceses, following multiple clergy abuse lawsuits. Across the country, more than 30 dioceses have have sought bankruptcy protection. We'll talk with experts about what it all means for the church, its faithful, and abuse survivors. Guests: Sophia Bollag, reporter, San Francisco Chronicle Michael O'Loughlin, national correspnodent and associate editor, America: The Jesuit Review - O'Loughlin has covered the Catholic church for both the Boston Globe and Crux. He is the author of "Hidden Mercy: AIDS, Catholics and the Untold Stories of Compassion in the Face of Fear" Joey Piscitelli, northwest group leader, SNAP (Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests) - Piscitelli, a survivor of clergy abuse, won a judgment against the Salesian order following a trial in 2006 in Contra Costa County Marie Reilly, professor of Law, Penn State University - Reilly is an expert in bankruptcy. Her published work includes studies of Catholic dioceses in bankruptcy Rick Simons , attorney, Simons is counsel or co-counsel on 75 individual clergy abuse lawsuits filed in Northern California. He also serves as the Northern California court liaison for the 1,600 clergy abuse cases filed against various Northern California dioceses

Guest: Sandy Phillips Kirkham, clergy sexual abuse survivor and author of Let Me Prey Upon You: Breaking Free from a Minister's Sexual Abuse. Sandy serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. More info: sandyphillipskirkham.com

David Clohessy is one of the pioneers in coming forward as a male childhood sexual abuse survivors for this day in age as a male Boomer. He has also spent 30 years working for SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) as volenteer and as employee. 

If you've been raised in the Catholic church, or even if you went to Catholic school, this episode is for you: Join our “Modern Day David”, Margaret Mary O'Connor, and I as she shares: The history of women in power within the Catholic Church that has long been ignored and who the first woman priest was How she came to realize the inequality that existed amongst sexes in the Catholic Church Why now is the best time for there to be a shift towards women as priests How we can use our collective voice to nudge such a shift And the far reaches such a shift would have in all aspects of our lives. Margaret Mary O'Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ The King Seminary in East Aurora, NY, she is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister. She literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women's Ordination and Church Accountability on the Priest Sexual Abuse Issue, at the forefront of any Catholic's attention, she believes any Catholic, deserves at minimal at least the truth from Rome, as opposed to the continual out right deception they are receiving. She also is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women's Ordination Conference, and SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). Buffalo Central Terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, Western NY Land Conservancy. Margaret Mary is the recipient of the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. She also enjoys Gardening, Pilates, and Reading Mystery Books. You can catch Mary Margaret and learn more about bringing about women's equality in the Catholic Church by visiting her website, www.youradicaltruth.com. And be sure to read her book, https://www.amazon.com/Scandal-Shadows-Original-Priest-Mary-Mother-ebook/dp/B085KTSVMW/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AN6BCDYZVLAH&keywords=Scandal+in+the+shadows&qid=1657675953&sprefix=scandal+in+the+shadows%2Caps%2C67&sr=8-1 (“Scandal In the Shadows: The Original Priest- Mother Mary) to put the fire in your soul to bring the change we've been seeking. Margaret Mary and Angelica would like to thank https://my.captivate.fm/www.podmatch.com (PodMatch) for linking us together so that this centuries over-due conversation could travel from Margaret Mary's heart to your speakers. About your host Mom, entrepreneur, Physician Assistant, intuitive; Angelica is a multi-passionate with her biggest motivator being changing this world with her God-given gifts by raising the emotional intelligence and self-awareness of our collective. Priding herself in being the perfect blend of science and spirit, she loves that she is able to read and pick apart scientific articles AND see spirits on the staircase moments later. She felt so powerful having welcomed her son at home a year to the day she first heard her son's soul call to Earth AND used evidence-based care throughout her pregnancy. Angelica has found her voice in both worlds and is profoundly grateful to be a steward weaving these worlds together. Her offerings are meant to bring out, as cliche as it sounds, the most authentic version of you, before fear and generational trauma changed your inner- most essence. Whether it by learning the why in an Akashic Record Reading, the how in FEMboldened, or by receiving long-lasting transformation with her signaturehttps://angelicapascone.com/hydropathic-attunements ( Hydropathic Attunements), Angelica is here to meet you where you are at and be your travel guide to who you get to be in this lifetime.   You can email Angelica directly at angelica@angelicapascone.com or check outhttps://my.captivate.fm/angelicapascone.com ( angelicapascone.com) for more.   FEMboldened's music was beautifully created by Francesca Orsomarso of FMN Creativehttps://my.captivate.fm/www.FMNCreative.com ( www.FMNCreative.com)

Would you sit under a women priest? In this segment, Margaret O'Connor shares information based on numerous research regarding the first women ministerial priest. She also shares info regarding her first book, Scandal in the Shadows: The Original Priest - Mother Mary. See video here - https://youtu.be/Ir6mQ-8qOpQ WHO IS MARGARET? Margaret Mary O'Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ the King Seminary, in East Aurora, NY. She is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister at our Lady of Charity Parish in Buffalo, NY. She literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women's Ordination and Church Accountability on the Priest Sexual Abuse issue, at the forefront of any Catholic's attention. As a fellow member of the laity, herself she believes any Catholic, deserves at minimal at least the truth from Rome. She is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Women's Ordination Conference, Roman Catholic Women Priests, and SNAP (Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests). Buffalo Central terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, Western New York Land Conservancy. She also enjoys gardening, Pilates and reading Mystery books. MARGARET'S CALL TO ACTION Go to https://yourradicaltruth.com/ to truly discover and learn more on this topic! Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/yourradicaltruth/ LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/yourradicaltruth. Twitter: @yrradicaltruth GENESIS'S INFO https://genesisamariskemp.net/ CALL TO ACTION Subscribe to GEMS with Genesis Amaris Kemp Channel, Hit the notifications bell so you don't miss any content, and share with family/friends. **REMEMBER - You do not have to let limitations or barriers keep you from achieving your success. Mind over Matter...It's time to shift and unleash your greatest potential. If you would like to be a SPONSOR or have any of your merchandise mentioned, please reach out via email at GEMSwithGenesisAmarisKemp@gmail.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/genesis-amaris-kemp/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/genesis-amaris-kemp/support

A church is where an insecure sixteen-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe. Tragically for some, the church can become a place of great harm. In her book, Let Me Prey Upon You, Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how a charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken, with a shattered faith, and the ultimate shame of being blamed and forced from the church she loved. From their very first meeting, the new youth minister slowly and methodically turned the sacred relationship of a trusted spiritual leader to one of abuse: sexual, emotional, and physical. When his actions were discovered, he was simply moved to another church, leaving Sandy to pay for his deeds. She was not his first victim, nor would she be his last. Despite a successful and happy life as a wife, mother, and friend, Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for twenty-seven years until a trigger forced her to face the truth. Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing which began in 2004, first by seeking justice and closure from both the pastor and the church. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let Me Prey Upon You details Sandy's journey from innocent sixteen-year-old victim to survivor and advocate. Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/  https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  _______________________________________________________________ Listen to more episodes at https://ResilientLifeHacks.com  MY BOOKS: Undefeated: From Trial to Triumph, How to Stop Fighting the Wrong Battles and Start Living Victoriously https://www.amazon.com/Undefeated-Trial-Triumph-Stand-Strong/dp/1640850872   Undaunted in Darkness: Finding Your Path From Broken to Bold, Your Daily Battle Plan for a Winning Life https://www.amazon.com/Undaunted-Darkness-Finding-Broken-Strong/dp/B09MYR8TH9/ Get my TOP 20 RESILIENT LIFE HACKS here! https://elizabeth-meyers.ck.page/1a1ef0ef89 Join our RESILIENT LIFE TRIBE: https://facebook.com/groups/resilientlifetribe 

In this episode, we sit down with Sandy Kirkham to discuss overcoming predators and rebuilding your life. Bio I have committed my life to raising awareness around clergy abuse. What does this mean? Simply put, any abuse of power by the clergy or any spirtutual leader Little did I know this would be my journey. When I was sixteen, I had my trust betrayed in ways I never imagined. A church should be a place where an insecure sixteen-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe. Tragically for some, the church can become a place of great harm. I experience the deceit and lies that come with being the victim of a wolf in sheep's clothing… my church's youth minister. After decades of keeping my deep secret, I discovered my voice and have made it my life's work to be an advocate for others. Through my speaking, podcast appearances and writing, I use my voice to help victims of clergy abuse. I have spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. My story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. I work with survivors conducting victim support conferences. I've participated on panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing my perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. I currently serve on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. PODCAST INTERVIEW AVAILABILITY I am available for podcast interviews. Visit my website at https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ for more information.

Special Guest Margaret Mary O'Connor-Author, Speaker, Expert on Early History of the Catholic Church, Podcast Featured Expert on Topics on CatholicismMargaret Mary O'Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ The King Seminary in East Aurora, NY, she is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister. Our Guest literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women's Ordination and Church Accountability on the Priest Sexual Abuse Issue, at the forefront of any Catholic's attention, and she believes any Catholic, deserves at minimal at least the truth from Rome, as opposed to the continual out right deception they are receiving. She also is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women's Ordination Conference, and SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). Buffalo Central Terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, Western NY Land Conservancy. Margaret Mary is the recipient of the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. She also enjoys Gardening, Pilates, and Reading Mystery Books.Guest Website: http://www.yourradicaltruth.comAt her website: yourradicaltruth.com. Margaret offers Chapter Four of her book, free to read to members of our audience. There is also a petition regarding the issue of bringing Mary Priests title back into the Church, and for the hierarchy to finally address the issue of women's inequality in the Catholic Church today.About the Book To some, Church history might sound dry or even boring. With her book "Scandal in the Shadows" you will never view Church history as boring… ever again. Most people have preconceived thoughts of women becoming priests. Whatever beliefs you may have, you will soon realize things are not at all as they appear. The very shadow of women priest's actual history is truly like a phantom from the shadows, residing within the graveyard of Papal records. Its' very voice having been lost for centuries, is now but a whisper wanting to be heard for today's Catholics. Readers will discover skeletons in the closets of our Church's past history. They will also uncover threads of early Church History, which very well might hold the answer to helping begin to solve our current priest shortage in the Catholic Church today. Most Catholics have never heard of Mary Mother of God and the Priesthood. Scandal in the Shadows not only reveals this deeply hidden secret, but for the reader's, they will also learn about Mary attired in a chasuble and stole.With each answer comes another question. Questions like, “What exactly precipitated not only this abrupt centuries old turnaround regarding the actual history of Mary Mother of God as Mary Priest, but this very move as so very disrespectful indeed, to one of the most credible woman priest of all time?” The hierarchy certainly does not see any women's equality in our Church as even an issue today. What would restoring this previously lost heritage of women priests mean to your faith life today? Millions of Catholics are unaware of the past presence of Women Bishops, Women Deacons and Women Priests in their Church's history. How could you know, when your own Church never disclosed the actual truth of this matter to you? Scandal in the Shadows explores why it is acceptable for Rome to betray the laity about the real past Church history.

TITLE: How The Catholic Church Wrote The Abuse Playbook GUEST: Zach Hiner, Executive Director of SNAP In this episode, we interview Zach Hiner, Executive Director of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). We talk about how the Catholic church wrote the playbook (their words, not ours) on covering up church and institutional abuse. We talk about how the Catholic church pours money into ensuring laws are unsupportive of abuse survivors (all abuse survivors, not just those abused in the Catholic church) and what you can do to get involved in the justice movement. This show streams on August 5th at 7 pm EST on our Facebook. You can catch the replay of this episode and all of our previous episodes at: www.Courage365.org/videos Website: https://www.snapnetwork.org

Tonight's special guest is Brian Toale from New York City, NY, who grew up in a middle-class suburban Catholic family on Long Island. He explains, "I went to Catholic School through high school, where I was sexually abused by the Amateur Radio Club's moderator for most of my senior year." Brian goes on, "Senior Year is supposed to be a time of college preparation and has far-reaching effects on one's future career and life, especially in an elite private school like mine." He explains, "Because I was being sexually abused during this time and spent that year trying to emotionally survive living with the abuse, terrified anyone would find out, I was crippled instead of prepared for my life after graduation." There were many unexpected consequences. "I spent the next 20 years crashing and burning at anything I tried to do to redeem myself in my own eyes, without ever once thinking the abuse had anything to do with my failure at living. After 13 years of marriage, a career that resulted from finally holding a job for a reasonable length of time, and a five-year-old daughter, I hit my worst bottom ever and entered 12 Step Recovery and started therapy." Brian's better now. "I reached a turning point almost five years ago when I sent a letter to my former high school's current administration, the Bishop, and law enforcement to report the abuse and its effects on my life. It was a symbolic giving back the shame I had carried on my back for 45 years to the institution that hadn't kept me safe. That simple act changed my life and started me on a road of advocacy that included lobbying for the NY Child Victims Act, speaking at press conferences, creating a personal website and blog, and becoming a SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) Leader in Manhattan, NY."

Margaret Mary O'Connor is on a mission to raise awareness about the lies and deceit from the Catholic Church. Margaret is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Water, Women's Ordination Conference, and SNAP (Survivors Network of those abused by Priests). To donate to the podcast please go to: paypal.me/clockworkjunkie To get 1 month FREE Agorapulse please go to: www.agorapulse.com/clockworkjunkie To purchase Margaret's book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scandal-Shadows-Original-Priest-Mother/dp/1733652302

What if in the beginning of the Christ Movement there were women apostles, priests, deacons, and bishops? Well hold onto your hats as we blow your beliefs that only men were spiritual leaders during the early church. On this episode of Belief Busters, Margaret Mary O'Connor and I discuss the reality that women of power have been erased from church history by patriarchal Roman politics. But you can do something about this fallacy, awaken to newly unearthed truths that women spiritual leaders existed and sign the petition to have the Catholic Church change their dogma to allow women to reclaim their power within the Church. Margaret Mary O'Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ The King Seminary in East Aurora, NY. She is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister. She literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women's Ordination and Church Accountability on the Priest Sexual Abuse Issue, at the forefront of any Catholic's attention. She believes any Catholic deserves at minimal at least the truth from Rome, as opposed to the continual out right deception they are receiving. She also is a member of Call To Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women's Ordination Conference and SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). Margaret's goal is to initiate a World-Wide Conversation about the Factual Truth of Mary Mother Of God, being a Woman Priest, in the Catholic Church's Early History. Margaret has written a book, Scandal in the Shadows about Mary as Priest. To sign the petition for change in the Catholic Church go to http://www.yourradicaltruth.com/ --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/sheree-taylor-jones/support

Sandy Phillips Kirkham We have a survivor story of clergy abuse on today's episode. Our guest is Sandy Phillips Kirkham, author of the book, Let Me Prey Upon You. It tells the horrific story of how she was methodically groomed by her youth pastor when she was 16 years old and suffered sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. Join us on a journey with Sandy as she struggled with the shame of being kicked out of her church and keeping this secret for 27 years. Find out how she finally had to face her past, her abuser, and start the process of healing. Website: https://dswministries.org  Email: diana@dswministries.org  Social media links:  Facebook, Twitter, YouTube: DSW Ministries https://dswministries.org/subscribe-to-podcast/  Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google Podcasts, Pandora, Stitcher, Listen Notes Guest Bio: Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com  Purchase her book "Let Me Prey Upon You" on amazon: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/let-me-prey-upon-you/

We have a survivor story of clergy abuse on today's episode. Our guest is Sandy Phillips Kirkham, author of the book, Let Me Prey Upon You. It tells the horrific story of how she was methodically groomed by her youth pastor when she was 16 years old and suffered sexual, emotional, and physical abuse. Join us on a journey with Sandy as she struggled with the shame of being kicked out of her church and keeping this secret for 27 years. Find out how she finally had to face her past, her abuser, and start the process of healing. Website: https://dswministries.org  Email: diana@dswministries.org  Social media links:  Facebook, Twitter, YouTube: DSW Ministries https://dswministries.orgsubscribe-to-podcast/  Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Google Podcasts, Pandora, Stitcher, Listen Notes Guest Bio: Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/ https://www.facebook.com/KirkhamAuthor/  sandykirkhamauthor@gmail.com  Purchase her book "Let Me Prey Upon You" on amazon: https://sandyphillipskirkham.com/shop/let-me-prey-upon-you/

Season 2 - Episode 14 A church is where an insecure sixteen-year-old girl should feel welcome, happy, and most importantly, safe. Tragically for some, the church can become a place of great harm. Sandy Phillips Kirkham details her account of how a charismatic youth minister preyed upon her, a betrayal which left her broken, with a shattered faith, and the ultimate shame of being blamed and forced from the church she loved. From their very first meeting, the new youth minister slowly and methodically turned the sacred relationship of a trusted spiritual leader to one of abuse: sexual, emotional, and physical. When his actions were discovered, he was simply moved to another church, leaving Sandy to pay for his deeds. She was not his first victim, nor would she be his last. Despite a successful and happy life as a wife, mother, and friend, Sandy successfully concealed her abuse for twenty-seven years until a trigger forced her to face the truth. Sandy's story will take you on her journey of healing which began in 2004, first by seeking justice and closure from both the pastor and the church. Her strength and courage will inspire you. Let Me Prey Upon You details Sandy's journey from innocent sixteen-year-old victim to survivor and advocate. Bio - Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” https://www.scottandnancykiesling.com/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/24k-healing/message

SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) Australia leader, Don McLeish was introduced to us by Ian Lawther, who is the parent of a survivor. These men are supporters, and their stories are from incredibly different angles that are fascinating, sad, tragic, yet need to be heard. Website: http://www.snapnetwork.org/ To make contact, email dmcleish@snapnetwork.org Or contact Don on sms 0411 565691 Stand Up Speak Up - https://standupspeakup.org/

In episode 5 of Season 2, we explore the roots and impact of clergy sexual abuse. We speak with Larry Antonsen, a leader of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), who tells us his story of being abused by an Augustinian priest. We once again interview Dr. Melissa Perrin, who specializes in working with victims and perpetrators of clergy sexual abuse. Finally, we speak with Rev. Mark Francis, the President of Catholic Theological Union in Chicago and a member of the Clerics of St. Viator who discusses the vows of chastity and celibacy in contributing to clergy abuse in the Roman Catholic Church. Featured Guests (in order of appearance): Larry Antonsen Dr. Melissa Perrin Rev. Mark Francis

A short bit of extra content about the survivors’ movement: the history of LinkUp and SNAP along with the mission and current work of SNAP, with Brian Clites of Case Western Reserve University and Tim Lennon, Chairman of the Board of SNAP (Survivors’ Network of those Abused by Priests).

Sandy Kirkham and her husband Bill enjoy life with their two grown children, two beautiful granddaughters, and two fairly well-behaved dogs. Sandy continues to use her voice to help victims of clergy abuse. She currently serves on the board of Council Against Child Abuse. Sandy has spoken before the Ohio Senate, a Maryland court, and appeared on a local television show in Boston. Her story, “Stolen Innocence,” was told in a documentary produced by The Hope of Survivors. Sandy works with survivors conducting victim support conferences. She has participated in The Voice of the Faithful (VOTF) panels moderated by SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), sharing her perspective from the non-Catholic point of view. Sandy has been a presenter/speaker at major events on clergy abuse including the Hope & Healing Conference. Sandy has earned a certificate of completion from the Faith Trust Institute entitled, “A Sacred Trust: Boundary Issues for Clergy and Spiritual Teachers.” Find more stories regarding the IFB movement by visiting: https://open.acast.com/shows/5e123e2b355ab8560d61f99c/episodes/preacherboysdoc.com (preacherboysdoc.com) https://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/ (https://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/) https://twitter.com/preacherboysdoc (https://twitter.com/preacherboysdoc) https://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/ (https://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/) To connect with a community who share the Preacher Boys Podcast mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/) Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

On this wonderful episode, I'm speaking with the lovely and talented Margaret M. O’Connor, author of ... Scandal in the Shadows: The Original Priest-Mary Mother Margaret Mary O'Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree in Physical Education from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ the King Seminary in East Aurora, NY. She is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister at Our Lady of Charity Parish in Buffalo, NY. She literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women's Ordination and Church Accountability on the the Priest Sexual Abuse Issue, at the forefront of any Catholic's attention. As a fellow member of the Laity, herself, she believes any Catholic deserves the truth from Rome, rather than cover up and lies. She is a member of: Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women's Ordination Conference,Water, and SNAP(Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), Buffalo Central Terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, and Western New York Land Conservancy. Margaret Mary, is the recipient of the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. She also enjoys Gardening, Pilates, and reading mystery books. So, if you are ready to find out more about "Scandal in the Shadows, then stay tuned for this episode of the Daily Authors Podcast with Margaret Mary ... Want to Share Your Message? If you are an author or podcaster and want to share your message and help more people, then checkout this list of 800+ Podcasts that will help you ... Get Booked, Build Credibility, Sell More Books and Services, & Share Your Message with the World!

Margaret Mary O’Connor has a Bachelor of Science Degree in Physical Education from the University of Buffalo, and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry, from Christ the King Seminary, in East Aurora, NY. She is a former Chaplain and currently is a Eucharistic Minister at Our Lady of Charity Parish in Buffalo, NY. She literally walks the walk, on picket lines to help keep the issues of Women’s Ordination and Church Accountability on the Priest Sexual Abuse Issue, at the forefront of any Catholic’s attention. As a fellow member of the Laity, she believes any Catholic deserves at minimum at least the truth from Rome, as opposed to the continual outright deception they are receiving. She also is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Women’s Ordination Conference and SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests), Buffalo Central Terminal, Preservation Buffalo Niagara, and Western New York Land Conservancy. Margaret Mary is the recipient of the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. She also enjoys gardening, Pilates and reading mystery books.

Margaret Mary O’Connor is on a mission to raise awareness about the lies and deceit from the Catholic Church. As the author of Scandal in the Shadows, The Original Priest - Mary Mother, Margaret Mary knows there will be those who want to continue to keep the truth hidden. Margaret Mary O'Connor has a Master of Arts in Pastoral Ministry from Christ the King Seminary in East Aurora, New York and a Bachelor of Science from the University of Buffalo. She is a former Chaplain, and currently a Eucharistic Minister. Margaret May literally walks the walk on picket lines to keep attention on Women's Ordination, Church accountability and on Priest Sexual Abuse Issues. As a fellow member of the Laity, she believes any Catholic deserves the truth rather than constant deception. Margaret is a member of Call to Action, Future Church, Roman Catholic Women Priests, Water, Women's Ordination Conference, and SNAP (Survivors Network of those abused by Priests). She is the recipient of the Special Award for Achievement from the Dale Carnegie Public Speaking Course. Margaret Mary’s journey into the history of the church began decades ago when she realized a huge truth had been buried away from the general public. During our conversation, Margaret Mary shares some of the experiences she had when a hospital Chaplin, run-ins with the law and FBI and why she is so driven to reveal the truth about how women are not treated as equals by the “powers that be” in the Church. Margaret Mary recalls one run in. “During the last St. Patrick’s Day, a former FBI agent who was hired by the Diocese of Buffalo tried to get the best of me. There were two policemen who were on either side of my shoulders.  corner of my eye there was two policemen that were on either side of my shoulders. There were policemen behind me as well as in front of me. It was really jarring.” Our conversation revealed so much more than I anticipated. You will learn insights about the Catholic Church that have been buried away for hundreds of years. “Most people have no idea of the history of the church and that women had positions of power.” Margaret Mary shares the process she went through to write Scandal in the Shadows, including when she wanted to give up because she questioned her right to tell the story in such detail. Discover what happened when Margaret Mary visited a psychic to dig deep into whether or not she should write the book. Find out what her concerns are now that the book is published. Knowing the story must be told keeps her moving forward. The book is the truth revealed and the lies exposed. Her book is an extension of her life’s work. Margaret Mary is committed to taking her message near and far. She is available for speaking engagements, interviews and guest appearances about the book and subject matter. About the book Scandal in the Shadows focuses in on something unbelievably, incredible, which took place in the early History of the Catholic Church, the existence of Mary Priest, otherwise known as Mary Mother of God. Millions of Catholics are unaware of the past presence of Women Apostles, Women Bishops, Women Deacons, and Women Priests, in their Church's History. How could you know, when your own Catholic Church never disclosed the actual truth of this matter to you? Explicitly absent from this book is any type of fabricated conjecture. Instead, its facts are backed up from Biblical research providing you the reader, with the actual truth, rather than the lies and deception you currently receive from your Church hierarchy. To some, ancient controversial knowledge might at first seem Scandalous, but it is there where you will find the Historical Truth of the Women Priest Ordination Issue. Scandal in the Shadows is written from the perspective of a lay Catholic Woman's realization that she was being lied to about her own Church's past History involving Women Priest's. As the complicity of this centuries old Scandal, continues on she wants her fellow Catholics to learn the actual truth of this matter for themselves. This hands-on-book is meant to be a travel guide tool, to enhance the readers own travel back into the early History of the Catholic Church. You are afforded a journey into a discovery of fascinating proportion, you will be surprised by the thought provoking past History of your own Catholic Church, view your own Church, like you have never before done. Who knew, that the solutions to today's Catholic Church Issues, may very well be solved from utilizing our Church's past History. Who is the book for? Scandal in the Shadows is geared specifically for the Laity of the Catholic Church. It asks the questions that our Church hierarchy's selective memory, will not answer for you. Their memory issue indeed, leaves all of us with more unanswered questions to deal with. What do we really know? And what has our Church conveniently not been telling us? Where can we find the truth today? Why exactly is it, that our hierarchy will not even acknowledge their own Church's past history? If ever there was a time, where Catholics needed Jesus' honesty, and transparency, now is that time. Why have the Church Fathers not been open and transparent with the Laity of their Church for centuries? So where is the truth to be found? It resides with in the skeletons found in the Church's own closets. With their appearance, History's truth will finally come out of the dark to be seen in the light of day. Get your copy at https://amzn.to/32Qw5Ak www.YourRadicalTruth.com https://www.facebook.com/groups/yourradicaltruth/ https://www.linkedin.com/yourradicaltruth

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The US Conference of Catholic Bishops is meeting in Baltimore this week. One of the big topics is how to handle sexual abuse allegations. Last month the Pope said all accusations should be reported and dealt with through the church. The group, SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests) says it should go directly to the police. I talked with founding member Peter Isley who has given up on the church to do “the right thing” and even said the recent story in the Washington Post about the Bishop in West Virginia is evidence of a cover-up. It gets real at the end of the interview….

Washington State is now discussing sanctuary for illegal immigrants at airports. Plus, Trevor interviews with Crossroads of the West Gun Show President Tracy Olcott about this weekend's gun show in Tulare, and Joey Piscitelli of SNAP (Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests) on recent Catholic Church abuse scandals

Tom speaks with David Lorenz, SNAP director for the state of Maryland. SNAP - Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests - is the oldest active support group for women and men harmed by religious and institutional authorities.

In this week's episode, D.J. talks with David Lorenz, child abuse advocate, member of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) and male sexual abuse survivor who speaks out regularly about child sexual abuse and statute of limitations which prevent some survivors from coming forward with their truths. David was featured on Netflix's The Keepers as he, and other advocates, voiced concerns about the statue of limitations in the state of Maryland. David says we either need to abolish the statues of limitation or raise them.  Learn more about SNAP and StopItNow, two valuable resources David shared about.  Hosted by D.J. Burr - a Seattle psychotherapist and author of I Just Wanted Love: Recovery of a Codependent, Sex and Love Addict.  Each episode of Journey On features real life accounts of sexual abuse and assault. You may be triggered by what you hear. I advise self-care tools; reaching out to a friend, seeing your therapist, picking a new time to listen to the show, or even listening with a group of friends. Take care of yourself first.  Music   Sunday by cdk (c) copyright 2016 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/files/cdk/53755 --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/journeyonpod/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/journeyonpod/support

In this week's episode, D.J. talks with David Lorenz, child abuse advocate, member of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priest) and male sexual abuse survivor who speaks out regularly about child sexual abuse and statute of limitations which prevent some survivors from coming forward with their truths. David was featured on Netflix's The Keepers as he, and other advocates, voiced concerns about the statue of limitations in the state of Maryland. David says we either need to abolish the statues of limitation or raise them.  Learn more about SNAP and StopItNow, two valuable resources David shared about.  Hosted by D.J. Burr - a Seattle psychotherapist and author of I Just Wanted Love: Recovery of a Codependent, Sex and Love Addict.  Each episode of Journey On features real life accounts of sexual abuse and assault. You may be triggered by what you hear. I advise self-care tools; reaching out to a friend, seeing your therapist, picking a new time to listen to the show, or even listening with a group of friends. Take care of yourself first.  Music   Sunday by cdk (c) copyright 2016 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/files/cdk/53755  

After discussing the the pope’s disturbing private visit with Kim Davis, the Kentucky county clerk who refuses to issue gay marriage licenses, we examine the duplicity of government officials who place religious images in public buildings and put “In God We Trust” on police vehicles, claiming these acts are not religious while at the same time admitting they want to proselytize for Jesus. Then we talk with David Clohessy, National Director of SNAP (Survivors’ Network of those Abused by Priests) about his recent settlement with the diocese of Jefferson, Missouri over his own abuse by a priest in the early 1970s.

SNAP Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests helps Dr. Marissa answer the Question of the Week: How do we heal the Planet from Abuse? Continuing to help put a wide camera angle lens onto Chris' healing from his past pain (abused by a priest in his